Wednesday Volume 507 10 March 2010 No. 54

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 10 March 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 279 10 MARCH 2010 280

measured response to the outcome of the negotiations, House of Commons and in particular that the amount of bureaucracy that charities will have to face as a result of this change is Wednesday 10 March 2010 kept to an absolute minimum? Angela E. Smith: Yes, of course. In fact, I met PPL The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock and PRS this week after a meeting that I had the previous week with the Association of Charities Shops and the charities concerned, including the National PRAYERS Council for Voluntary Organisations and umbrella groups. We are very clear that we cannot have a system that imposes unreasonable burdens on charities, including [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] administrative burdens. I pressed a joint system on PPL and PRS, and they are looking at it and are keen to facilitate it. Under that system, charities would get Oral Answers to Questions demands or letters only from those organisations, and not from others. The aim is to keep costs to a minimum, given the effect that the change could have on charities.

CABINET OFFICE Mr. Francis Maude (Horsham) (Con): Does not the small print of the Government’s impact assessment show that no fewer than 250,000 voluntary organisations The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— would suffer from this new music tax? The consultation stated: Music Licensing Levies “There will be social costs for users who cease playing music because they cannot afford a PPL licence.” 1. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What representations We know that Lord Mandelson is all powerful and the Office of the Third Sector has received on the sweeps all before him, but could not Cabinet Office effects on charities and the voluntary sector of new Ministers have shown a little backbone in resisting this music licensing levies. [321234] new music tax?

The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. Angela E. Smith: That question illustrates the right Smith): I have had a number of meetings with third hon. Gentleman’s fundamental misunderstanding. First, sector representatives to hear their concerns. I have also the levy is not a tax in any way, because no money at all met representatives from Phonographic Performance accrues to the Government, whereas tax is money that Ltd and the Performing Rights Society for Music. These goes to the Government. I therefore suggest that he gets meetings are helping to facilitate negotiations, and his facts clear, as that might help him to understand the subsequent agreement between the two sides, about issues. Secondly, the Government have to make this detailed arrangements for music licensing, prior to change, as it is a legal imperative. We are working with implementation. all the organisations and charities involved and are having discussions in an attempt to reach agreement John Howell: I thank the Minister for her response before any decision is taken forward. but, on the basis of her own figures, the changes to the exemption in music licences for charities and voluntary Mr. Maude: Does the Minister accept that it is by no groups will cost them £20 million a year. Does she not means agreed universally that there is a legal obligation think it hypocritical that Ministers can write in letters to to make this change? We know that it will cost £20 million my constituents that they have developed an environment overall to the sector, and it will also impact on church that encourages charities to thrive when they are saddling halls, which are already suffering under the red tape them with a cost of £20 million a year? imposed by the Licensing Act 2003. Among all his many other grand appointments, Lord Mandelson is Angela E. Smith: No, I do not. The hon. Gentleman now a Church Commissioner. Does she not find it has to understand that removing the exemption was not curious that the person who is meant to be the Minister a whim of Government but a legal imperative. I think defending the Church of England is, at the same time, that we are the last country in Europe to remove it, but giving it a kick in the collection tins? the important thing is that we proceed with agreement. Clearly, the Government do not want to put any additional Angela E. Smith: Witty but inaccurate. The right hon. burdens, including costs, on charities. It is very important Gentleman has to understand that the Government are that charities and the organisations that could be affected seeking to minimise costs for all organisations, and that discuss the matter, and that is why I am very pleased to is why we are facilitating meetings leading to agreement. be able to facilitate those discussions between the two We intend to proceed with agreement between the charities sides. and voluntary organisations and PPL. He suggested that the costs would be around £20 million, but I think Tom Levitt (High Peak) (Lab): Everyone recognises that that is an overstatement. The organisations the right of PPL to get the income from its work that concerned—[Interruption.] That number was contained the courts say it deserves, but I am sure that it would not in the original consultation, but I think that we have wish to be seen to be imposing in any way an undue moved on significantly from then, as a result of the weight of levy, on the smallest charities in particular. negotiations. I shall keep him up to date, as he seems to Will the Minister try to make sure that there is a sadly out of date at present. 281 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 282

Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): in politics and will continue to review how best that is My hon. Friend will be aware that many hon. Members done, and that will include consideration of lowering across all the Benches have campaigned for many years the voting age to 16. We are also very innovative: today, to ensure that the people who produce the music—the we have the march on Government, and I will be on musicians—have the right to be rewarded for their Habbo, where we have already had 40,000 visits and efforts. That is what this is about. This is not a tax, but almost 1,000 members, to engage with young people. people deserve to get rewarded for the music that they record. The money happens to come through the PPL, Mr. Clarke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for an but it is the artist who receives it. Does she agree that it extremely comprehensive reply. In view of the fact that is a matter of balance? It must be possible for the the debate on voting at 16 is clearly ongoing, will she Government to work this out with the charities and inform me and, of course, the House about what action the musicians: the charities must not be affected, but the the Government are taking to ensure that citizenship people who make the music in the first place should not education is consistent with our objectives of improving be robbed. the democratic system?

Angela E. Smith: My hon. Friend makes a valid point Ms Butler: My right hon. Friend makes a valid point about balance. We should have a balance and an agreement about citizenship education. The Government believe between the two sides that are affected. that it is crucial to provide the best citizenship education for young people. The Department for Children, Schools Cabinet Meeting (Durham) and Families is funding 11 higher education institutions to provide free continuing professional development 2. Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby) (Con): What the courses for teachers, and certificates and masters-level cost was of holding the Cabinet meeting in Durham on credits will be awarded when they are completed. On 18 February 2010. [321236] 18 March, we will have a debate right here in the House in Committee Room 14 to discuss citizenship education. The Minister for the Cabinet Office (Tessa Jowell): The cost of the Cabinet meeting and the public engagement Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): event was £67,473, excluding VAT. The Cabinet’s visit Would it not be more appropriate to try to ensure an to Durham on 18 February created an opportunity for increase in the participation of the 18-to-25 age group, a whole range of ministerial visits right across the before considering lowering the voting age to 16? region. Ms Butler: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point, Mr. Robathan: There is a suspicion abroad that the but one age group should not be considered to the whole range of ministerial visits may have had more to exclusion of any other. In fact, it is habit forming when do with electioneering for the coming general election, people, especially young people, get involved and engage having used public money to get up there. Will the in politics; they are then more likely to carry that Minister please tell the House—if she cannot do so through later on in their lives. now, will she put a full list in the public domain—what party political engagements each Cabinet Minister had Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Surely, when he or she went to Durham? in my constituency, as in others, the voting record of those between the ages of 18 and 25 is so low that Tessa Jowell: It is absolutely reprehensible to undertake something desperate needs to be done, does it not? uninformed smear. The Cabinet’s visit to Durham and the visits that the Cabinet has undertaken to other cities Ms Butler: I agree with hon. Friend that something in England and Wales reflect the Government’s desperate needs to be done. Surely, as part of that, hon. determination to get out and about, not to be wholly Members should make a cohesive effort to go out and based in London, and I want to make it absolutely clear engage with young people in all constituencies. that the conduct of the Cabinet visits and the ministerial meetings are fully subject to the ministerial code. If any List of Ministerial Responsibilities party political campaigning is undertaken, the costs are met by the Labour party, which would be responsible. 4. Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What the There is complete transparency, and the hon. Gentleman cost was of producing the list of ministerial should not make such claims. responsibilities published by her Department in October 2009; and if she will make a statement. Voting Age [321238]

3. Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) The Minister for the Cabinet Office (Tessa Jowell): (Lab): What recent representations the Minister for The list of ministerial responsibilities is produced in-house young citizens and youth engagement has received on by the Cabinet Office. Costs are met from within existing the merits of lowering the voting age to 16 years. Cabinet Office budgets and are not separately identifiable. [321237] Mr. Bone: This document is terrific value for money. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Ms Dawn On page 2, it ranks the Cabinet members in order of Butler): Representations have been made by various importance. For years, the Chancellor of the Exchequer groups, including the British Youth Council and the was ranked No. 2, but last October he was demoted to UK Youth Parliament. The Government are absolutely No. 4. Was that the unleashing of the forces of hell determined to increase the engagement of young people within the Cabinet Office? 283 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 284

Tessa Jowell: The hon. Gentleman is almost at the Julie Morgan: I have thousands of civil servants point of doing a PhD thesis on departmental working in my Cardiff, North constituency, particularly responsibilities, so great is his fascination with the topic, in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs in Llanishen but the Chancellor of the Exchequer is more focused on and Companies House in Gabalfa, and I met PCS guiding this country out of recession and ensuring that representatives earlier this week. I urge my right hon. people keep their jobs and that businesses survive the Friend to do all she can to settle the damaging dispute deepest global recession than he is on the list of with the PCS. Will she return to the negotiating table to departmental responsibilities. try to reach a settlement with the PCS?

Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I agree with the Tessa Jowell: I want to be absolutely clear with my hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) that the hon. Friend, who I know is very concerned about the document is very useful, but rather than a beauty position of civil servants in her constituency and who contest—a list of who the Prime Minister likes at a has represented their interests so diligently. There is no certain time—it is something that many hon. Members question of any further negotiation. The amendment use for the purpose of information. The problem is that, scheme that gives effect to the changes, agreed by five of as soon as it is published, it is out of date. What is being the six trade unions, has been laid before Parliament. It done to ensure that Ministers’ offices are aware of what is a fair set of proposals, which deals with the issues of their Ministers’ responsibilities are? When members of age discrimination that are persistent in the old proposals. my office have used that list to ring up Departments, The new scheme benefits the lowest paid and compares they have found that the portfolios have changed. well with other schemes in the public sector. There is no question of reopening negotiations. Tessa Jowell: Perhaps I can undertake to ensure that a review is conducted to ensure that Ministers’ specific Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): In responsibilities are accurately documented, for the Plymouth, we have hundreds of hard-working civil convenience of Members across the House. servants who have served the country very well indeed at the Land Registry. They are extremely concerned Mr. Nick Hurd (Ruislip-Northwood) (Con): Why has about how they are being treated by the Government in the Cabinet Office refused to publish a list of Parliamentary a change of terms of conditions without proper Private Secretaries to accompany the list of Ministers? consultation. Why are the Government treating the Is it because 12 PPS posts remain vacant since last Land Registry civil servants in Plymouth so badly? June’s ministerial reshuffle? Those are traditionally the first rungs of the ministerial ladder: ambitious Back Tessa Jowell: It is not the case that the interests of Benchers—well represented today—should be stampeding civil servants have been ignored, neglected or in any to get a toehold. Do the vacancies reflect a lack of other way not treated with the direct integrity that is talent on the Labour Back Benches, or just a lack of deserved in respect of the hard work of the thousands appetite to serve the present Prime Minister? and thousands of civil servants who serve this country. The Land Registry civil servants will be subject in Tessa Jowell: The people at home who may be gripped exactly the same way to the proposals under the new watching Cabinet Office questions will be bewildered by compensation scheme which, as I say, are particularly the Opposition’s preoccupation with such matters when focused on benefiting the lowest paid. there are so many big issues facing our country, which every single Member listed in the directory of Ministers Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): The loyal, diligent is focused on tackling, in the interests of the people they workers at the tax office in Chorley are being run down represent. in numbers. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is totally unacceptable to offer them jobs in the benefits Civil Service Compensation Scheme and credits department, only for them to find out that in January that offer was withdrawn and they now face redundancy? Is that not the crisis that we are facing, 6. Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): What recent and the reason why PCS is so unhappy? Will she look progress has been made in negotiations on the civil into the issue as a matter of urgency? service compensation scheme; and if she will make a statement. [321243] Tessa Jowell: I am happy to have further discussion with my hon. Friend about the concerns of civil servants The Minister for the Cabinet Office (Tessa Jowell): in his constituency, but it is the intention that all negotiations For the past 18 months, officials have been in discussion are conducted in a way that accords dignity and respect with the six main civil service unions to negotiate changes to those civil servants who are subject to any changes. to the civil service compensation scheme to eliminate age discrimination, to protect the lowest paid and to deliver the savings of £500 million over three years Departmental Carbon Dioxide Emissions committed to by the Prime Minister. The new scheme will be brought into effect from 1 April, with the agreement of five of the six civil service unions. The amendment 7. Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): What discussions scheme was laid before the House on 5 February. The she had with ministerial colleagues on reducing levels Public and Commercial Services union rejected the new of carbon dioxide emissions attributable to the use of proposals and held industrial action on Monday and information and communications technology in Tuesday this week. Government Departments. [321244] 285 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 286

The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. Mr. Anderson: Will the Minister join me in praising Smith): My team and I have regular meetings and the Birtley community partnership in my constituency, discussions with ministerial colleagues on all areas of and in particular the chairman, Mr. Ian Caddy, who Cabinet Office work, including the Greening Government was recently awarded the MBE by the Queen, for the ICT strategy. Through actions recommended in the work that they have done with the community assets strategy, good progress is already being made by programme to develop a community hub in our town Departments and we are recognised internationally as from what was a derelict library? leaders in this area, with savings of £6.8 million and 12,000 tonnes of carbon savings, as is reported in our “One year on” report. Angela E. Smith: I can. The grassroots grants and community assets programmes are two of my favourite Paul Holmes: Carbon emissions from ICT are one Government programmes for the sector, because they part of a very poor picture overall. The Minister has really involve the community in making a difference. received £681,000 of public money from the Department My hon. Friend’s constituent, whom he mentioned, of Energy and Climate Change as part of a low-carbon really earned—[Interruption.] technology scheme. Is she confident that that will be well spent when, of the 13 Cabinet Office buildings, Mr. Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the none has received an energy efficient rating, and five, Minister, but there are far too many private conversations including Downing street, got a worse rating in 2008-09 taking place in the Chamber. I might just tell the House than they did in the previous year? at this point that since last Wednesday I have received a large number of letters from members of the public, Angela E. Smith: Yes. One reason why those buildings whose support we will all be seeking in a few weeks’ got a slightly worse rating was that there was more time and to whose views we should attach importance. activity and staff worked later nights. However, that is Those letters have complained bitterly about the excessive still not acceptable, and we are ensuring that we put that noise, barracking and yah-boo behaviour in this House— money to good use to bring down carbon emissions [Interruption.] Somebody said from a sedentary position across the estate. “shocking”. As far as the public are concerned, it is shocking. It is nothing of which to be proud, and we do Jenny Willott (Cardiff, Central) (LD): As my hon. not need to hear any more of it. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Paul Holmes) said, IT is one element of the Government’s carbon footprint. The latest figures show an increase in the Angela E. Smith: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I may amount of energy consumed by IT in some Departments, write to you myself on that issue. and Government buildings are shown to be among the I wanted to say that my hon. Friend’s constituent least efficient in the country. Does the Minister agree earned his MBE, and he should be very proud of that. I that the announcement in December of less than £3 million understand that his constituent is not very well at the for pilot projects to reduce emissions from Government moment, so I send him my personal best wishes and buildings is too little, too late? those of my colleagues for the work that he has done for the community. Angela E. Smith: The hon. Lady will not be surprised that I do not agree. Reducing energy use and carbon emissions produces savings as well. One of the results of Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): What the Greening Government ICT strategy that we are proportion of those grants went to rural areas in that proud of is that, as we produce savings by reducing period? energy use, we can plough that money back into ensuring that we reduce carbon emissions still further. The money Angela E. Smith: I can look in more detail at that, but will be put to good use, and I can assure her that plans the hon. Lady should know that the grants are issued are on track for significantly reduced carbon emissions. throughout England and directly by community development foundations locally. If she is concerned Grassroots Grants that those who give out the grants in her area are not giving enough to rural areas, she should please let me 8. Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): How many know, because they should be fairly well spread across local organisations have received grassroots grants rural and urban areas and among young and older from her Department in the last 12 months. [321245] people. They are small grants of £250 to £5,000, and they are targeted at community groups. I am sure that The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. her concerns can be assuaged if she looks at the issue Smith): I can announce today that from September and comes back to me. 2008 to December 2009, the grassroots grants programme has provided over 15,500 grants to small charities and voluntary organisations, totalling more than £38 million. Mr. Speaker: I call Sandra Gidley. These grants are given to small groups across England to do what they think best meets the needs of their local Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab) rose— communities. In addition, more than £17.5 million has been received in donations from businesses and individuals. That has been boosted by the Government to more Mr. Speaker: Youhavehadago.[Interruption.] than £31 million to support local activity in years to No, I call Sandra Gidley. You can always try on a come. supplementary. 287 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 288

ICT (External Consultants) that we will educate people further in the necessary skills that they need in order to do the job. I hope that 11. Sandra Gidley (Romsey) (LD): How many that makes it clearer to him. external consultants have been recruited by her Department to work on ICT projects in the last three years. [321248] PRIME MINISTER The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Ms Dawn The Prime Minister was asked— Butler): The Department examines requirements for external consultancy on a case-by-case basis. Cabinet Engagements Office is committed in the long term to upskilling the IT Q1. [321219] Mr. Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): If department in order to ensure that we reduce the he will list his official engagements for Wednesday requirement for external resources, and we are building 10 March. in-house the capacity, culture and skills that are needed to increase efficiency. The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in paying Sandra Gidley: If the Government are decreasing tribute to the sacrifice of soldiers who have lost their staff numbers and then giving the same jobs to consultants, lives in Afghanistan. They are: Rifleman Jonathon Allott; how can we be sure that we are getting value for money? Rifleman Liam Maughan, from 3rd Battalion the A neighbour who was working on a Government IT Rifles; Lance Corporal Thomas Keogh, from 4th Battalion project within a Department refused to relocate and the Rifles, attached to 3rd Battalion the Rifles; and was then redeployed by a consultancy firm at a much Corporal Stephen Thompson, from 1st Battalion the higher salary. How can that sort of example represent Rifles, attached to 3rd Battalion the Rifles. These men value for money? have made the greatest of sacrifices in the service of their country and their comrades. Their heroism and Ms Butler: It is important that we consider a couple bravery cannot, and will not, be forgotten. Their of areas. For instance, from 1 April 2009 the Cabinet legacy will be in the future that is being won for the Office required all proposed procurements for external people of Afghanistan and the protection they are resources to be approved by the external resources securing for the British people. They will be remembered board. External resources are used only when the external with great pride by the British people and by their supplier offers skills or resources that are not available families. As we honour their memory, we send our within a Department, and offers value for money. sincere condolences to their families and loved ones, [Interruption.] That, coupled with the upskilling of who feel their loss the most. The debt that we owe them internal ICT departments, will ensure that the Department can never be repaid. does secure value for money. The whole House, I think, will want also to pay tribute to the life of Michael Foot. He will be Mr. Speaker: Order. I do hope that the House will remembered as a man of deep principle and passionate come to order. It is very discourteous to the Minister idealism who was, in the views of many in all parts of who is answering the question at the Dispatch Box for this House, the greatest parliamentary debater of his people to sit wittering away to each other as though generation. their conversations are more important than the answer. This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues They are not. and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today. Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) (Lab): May I say how much I agree with you, Mr. Speaker? It is so Mr. Benyon: The whole House will want to concur important that people at home can hear what is being with the words of condolence that the Prime Minister said. has offered to those members of the Rifles who lost their lives. For those of us who served with the regiment On consultants, may I say to my hon. Friend how that has now become the Rifles, we feel the loss of the important it is that we secure local procurement for the families very intensely, but it is matched with pride at various contracts that exist? It is important to ensure what that regiment has become and what it is today. that, when ICT is procured, there are local jobs for local people. The Army Families Federation has carried out postal trials which prove that it is unlikely that the vast majority Ms Butler: I thank my hon. Friend for championing, of our armed forces serving overseas will be able to vote and ensuring that we have, local jobs for local people. in the coming election. Will the Prime Minister intervene We have to consider value for money and whether we to ensure that we do not have the perverse situation have the skills in-house to provide the services and IT whereby we have people fighting abroad for others to strategies that we need. have the right to vote, but we are denying them that right themselves? Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): The Prime Minister: I repeat and endorse what the Will the Minister very kindly stop this assault on the hon. Gentleman has said, not only about the regiment English language? Can we drop these awful terms, such that he is talking about but about the bravery of the as “upskilling” and “third sector”? individual soldiers. I also say to him that the Justice Secretary is making the best arrangements possible so Ms Butler: Upskilling is now a recognised and that every soldier and every member of the armed understandable term. I apologise if the hon. Gentleman forces overseas who has a vote will be able to cast their is put off by it, but I explain to him that it means vote. I will personally write to the hon. Gentleman 289 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 290 about all the arrangements that are being made. It is devices, as everybody knows, the guerrilla warfare in absolutely right that everyone should have the chance to Iraq and in Afghanistan led to IEDs starting to be used, cast their vote in every election. and we had to take extra measures to deal with that. We have improved our engineering capability and our Q2. [321220] Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): I surveillance capability, and we now have 3,000 mine ask to be associated with the remarks on the loss of life, detector machines on the ground for our troops. That and on the late lamented Michael Foot. will double over the next few months. We are doing everything we can to deal with the IED threat, so we are I believe that my right hon. Friend is in favour of full answering legitimate questions that have been raised. financial disclosure by parliamentarians. With that in mind, will he assure me that the Cabinet Office is I hope that we can also pay tribute to the dignity with currently undertaking an investigation into the tax returns which the parents of those who died spoke yesterday. of the noble Lord Ashcroft? The dignity they showed is something that I believe impressed everybody throughout all the country.

The Prime Minister: I have been involved in no such Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister has now apologised investigation of Lord Ashcroft. I have to tell the House for something that should never have been said by the that I believe the assurances that were made in December Minister, and the House will be grateful for that. 2007 that Lord Ashcroft was paying his taxes and was a resident in Britain. These assurances were given to us in From that apology, let me turn to the broader issue of an interview by the Leader of the Opposition. the Prime Minister’s evidence to the Chilcot inquiry. Following his evidence, one former Chief of the Defence Staff said that he was being “disingenuous” and another Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): May I first echo said that he was “dissembling”. Both those people what the Prime Minister said about Michael Foot? worked with the Prime Minister—[Interruption.] Oh, it Obviously, I did not serve with him in the Commons, is because they are Tories, is it? That is what this but I have always admired his writing, his brilliant tribalist, divisive Government think about people who oratory and, above all, his dedication to this House of serve our country. I think, first of all, the Prime Minister Commons. While I did not agree with much of what he should get up and dissociate himself completely from said, not least about the Soviet Union and disarmament, what those people behind him have said. he held all his views with conviction and with passion, and that is how we should remember him. The Prime Minister: It is common cause within this May I also join the Prime Minister in paying tribute House that we support the campaign in Iraq and in to the four servicemen who have lost their lives in Afghanistan, and it is common cause also that we do Afghanistan in the past seven days: Corporal Stephen not send our troops into battle without the commanders Thompson, Lance Corporal Tom Keogh, Rifleman Liam assuring us that they are properly equipped for the Maughan and Rifleman Jonathon Allott. We pay tribute operations they are undertaking. In every instance where to their bravery and their service, and, as the Prime the Ministry of Defence asked for equipment under Minister said, we will not forget what they have done. urgent operational requirements, that equipment was Yesterday, we had the inquest into the deaths of four given. soldiers in Afghanistan in 2008. At the time the Defence If I may say so, as far as vehicles are concerned, the Minister, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford Leader of the Opposition praised us last summer for (Mr. Davies), linked their deaths to the commanders’ what we had done to increase the number of vehicles in choice of vehicle. That was flatly contradicted by what Afghanistan. If we are talking about these issues, let us the coroner said, so will the Prime Minister now apologise find where the common ground is rather than where on behalf of his Minister? there is division.

The Prime Minister: The Minister apologised at the Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister’s Members of time, and I repeat that apology. The issue for me is, first Parliament have questioned the integrity of people who of all, that our thoughts must be with the families of have served this country, fought for this country and are Corporal Sarah Bryant, Corporal Sean Reeve, Lance essays in the bravery of this country. Before we go on, Corporal Richard Larkin and Trooper Paul Stout. They he has got to get to that Dispatch Box and dissociate also died serving their country and building a safer himself from those disgraceful remarks. Afghanistan, and therefore a safer Britain. The Prime Minister: I have never at any time criticised I have read the coroner’s report from the inquest. the patriotism of anybody who has been involved in the That report will go to the Ministry of Defence, which defence establishment of this country. I think we should has said it will look at every detail that is raised by the have a debate about this that is both serious and based coroner and take whatever action is necessary. There on facts. I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman that are really three areas that have got to be looked at, and every request that was made to us by the Ministry of we have to be absolutely sure that everything possible is Defence for urgent operational requirements was met. being done. The first is on vehicles themselves. We have We have spent £18 billion in Afghanistan and Iraq, on ordered 1,800 new vehicles since 2006 at a cost of top of the MOD budget. I assure the House that every £1.7 billion to make sure that we have the vehicles that time our commanders go into action, I ask them for an are necessary for the commanders on the ground. assurance that they have the equipment they need for Secondly, on training, we have made sure that the the operation. I want to applaud the patriotism of training is better, and it will be improved for those who everyone who serves our country, and so does the vast are going to Afghanistan. Thirdly, on improvised explosive majority of this House. 291 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 292

Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister has given us a I asked the Prime Minister a very specific question: lecture this morning outside the House on character, did he underestimate the cost of the war in Afghanistan? but he does not have the character to stand up to his I have a freedom of information request saying that the own Back Benchers—it is a disgraceful slur. cost of the war was estimated at hundreds of millions of It was not just Chiefs of the Defence Staff who said pounds, but the cost this year is £4 billion. Is it not the this. We have had a former permanent secretary at the case that we have Ministers blaming commanders, a Ministry of Defence talking about a guillotine budget, Prime Minister failing to take responsibility, and a a serving permanent secretary talking about a serious Government who have been found out? Should not dispute between the Treasury and the MOD, and a everyone conclude that they failed to plan, failed to act, former commander of the Paras in Afghanistan saying failed to prepare, and failed in their duty of care? that he was The Prime Minister: First of all on defence, the right “staggered by the lack of any sense of responsibility” hon. Gentleman cannot deny the fact that the budget is from the Prime Minister. Why does the Prime Minister rising every year in real terms, and he cannot deny, think that all those people, who are dedicated to the when he raises the question of Afghanistan, the fact defence of this country, are wrong, while only he is that we have now spent £9 billion on Afghanistan. That right? is on top of the defence budget. As for his talk about the The Prime Minister: I put the facts before the inquiry cold war: talk about him asking for no partisanship in on Friday. I said to the inquiry very clearly first of all the House of Commons! I seem to remember that he that the expenditure of the Ministry of Defence has was at school at the time. been rising in real terms under this Government. I also The Conservative party talks about the new politics, said that in addition to that expenditure, £8 billion had but how can there be new politics with Lord Ashcroft? been spent in Iraq, and that we are spending £9 billion The Conservative party talks about modernisation, but in Afghanistan. how can there be modernisation with Lord Ashcroft? I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman that the And the Conservative party talks about change. How Chief of the Defence Staff has said on record that we can it ever change as long as Lord Ashcroft is vice-chairman are the best equipped force that we have ever been. That of their party? [Interruption.] is the person who—both on the ground and in his position—has got to satisfy himself that the forces have Mr. Speaker: Order. I have already told Mr. Twigg the equipment they need. I also have to tell the right that I am worried about him. Mr. Burns, your heckling hon. Gentleman that I am going to take no lectures on is as boring as it is boorish. Stop it or leave the Chamber: integrity from the man who will not answer even one I do not mind which. question about Lord Ashcroft—[Interruption.] Mr. Neil Turner (Wigan) (Lab): Wigan has 19 Sure Mr. Speaker: Order. Government Back Benchers must Start centres. Beech Hill primary school is following calm down—we must hear Mr. David Cameron. Westfield, Woodfield and Canon Sharples schools in being rebuilt, and all our secondary schools are being Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister talks about the rebuilt through the Building Schools for the Future former Chiefs of the Defence Staff. The fact is that one programme. Can my right hon. Friend guarantee that said that the Prime Minister was “dissembling”, and the any Government led by him will continue to invest in other said he was “disingenuous”. The Prime Minister our children, the citizens of my constituency and our answers every question by talking about urgent operational country? requirements. Of course the Government never rejected those, but they never thought about what that meant for The Prime Minister: I can tell the House that we have the defence budget. The fact is that the Prime Minister now built 3,400 Sure Start children’s centres. There were has tried to fight two wars on a peacetime budget. Will none in 1997, but now there are five or six in every he confirm that when he was Chancellor, the Treasury constituency in England. Three and four-year-olds are massively underestimated the cost of the war in now entitled to a free part-time early education place. If Afghanistan? the Conservative party persists in its policy of cutting The Prime Minister: No. I have to tell the right hon. Sure Start children’s centres to serve a minority of Gentleman that the defence budget has been rising children, millions of children will lose out on early every year. He might have had a complaint if we were education and the whole country will suffer. cutting the defence budget every year, but it is rising every year. The only time the defence budget has been Mr. Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): I wish to cut was in the 10 years before 1997, when it was cut by add my own expressions of sympathy and condolence 30 per cent. by a Conservative Government—by half a to the families and friends of Corporal Stephen Thompson, billion a year. The shadow Defence Secretary has had to from 1st Battalion the Rifles; Lance Corporal Tom apologise for the cuts that the Conservatives made. Keogh, from 4th Battalion the Rifles; Rifleman Liam Maughan, from 3rd Battalion the Rifles; and Rifleman Mr. Cameron: The reason the defence budget fell in Jonathon Allott, from 3rd Battalion the Rifles. All the ’90s is that under the Conservatives, we won the cold tragically lost their lives serving bravely and selflessly in war—[Interruption.] Afghanistan this week. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Twigg, I am quite worried I also wish to add my tribute and that of my colleagues about you—calm down. to the late and lamented Michael Foot. As we know from the warm tributes paid earlier, he was a great Mr. Cameron: And we all remember who was wearing parliamentarian, a great orator and a great intellectual, the CND badges at the time. but above all a man of great integrity. 293 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 294

Today’s report from the National Audit Office lifts Q3. [321221] Mr. Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): the lid on Labour’s dark secret. Thirteen years of tough The Prime Minister referred earlier to vehicles, training talk on crime has actually turned our prisons into and IEDs as the three issues that now need to be colleges of crime. Repeat crime, as the report shows, examined, but the Wiltshire and Swindon coroner, now costs the taxpayer £10 billion a year and the David Masters, made it clear that the soldiers human cost of tens of thousands of victims is even whom the Prime Minister named earlier were killed higher. Will the Prime Minister now admit the truth—that unlawfully—that was the verdict—because they had this Government are not tough on criminals, because unsuitable vehicles, inadequate training and insufficient they are turning the young offenders of today into the bomb-detection equipment. Why would he send people hardened criminals of tomorrow? into battle with unsuitable vehicles, inadequate training and insufficient bomb-detection equipment? The Prime Minister: I have to tell the right hon. Gentleman the facts. Reoffending among young people The Prime Minister: Before any operation is carried is down 25 per cent. Whatever he says, he has to face up out, we ask those in charge whether they have the to the fact that crime is down in this country, violent equipment needed to undertake it. We are dealing here crime is down in this country and the number of police with a situation in which four people in a Snatch Land in this country has gone up. People have a right to feel Rover faced a huge mine that blew up. At that stage, the safer and we are doing more with neighbourhood policing. mining detection equipment was not as good as it is He cannot give the House information that he cannot now. It is a lot better now, and we have learned lessons back up with the statistics. over the past few years, which is why I say that 6,000 mine detectors will be out in Afghanistan in the next few months. On training, the Ministry of Defence has already Mr. Clegg: How can the Prime Minister defend a said that training has improved and that it will look record in which nine out of every 10 young men who go again at how it can improve further. into prison on short-term sentences go out and commit another crime within two years? Under Labour, prison On Snatch Land Rovers, the hon. Gentleman will is not working. He is spending 11 times more on locking know that in 2006, we decided, on the recommendation children up than on stopping them committing crime in of the Chiefs of Staff, to allocate £90 million to buying the first place. Will he not admit that he talks tough on Mastiffs, Ridgbacks and other vehicles. He will also crime and ignores the evidence, but it is the victims who know that a contract for 200 light protected patrol end up paying the price? vehicles to replace Snatch has been awarded in the past few days. Everything we can do to ensure that our vehicles are safer is being done, which is why 1,100 new The Prime Minister: Again, the right hon. Gentleman vehicles have been made available since 2006 and why cannot ignore the facts. There are 20,000 more prison we spent £1.8 billion on it. I cannot bring these soldiers places. Adult reoffending has fallen and youth reoffending back to life, but I can assure him, and the soldiers’ has fallen. If he would support us on CCTV and DNA, families, that we are doing everything we can to ensure we might be more able to catch criminals at the right that training is improved, equipment against mines is time and in the right place. I share with him a desire to better and the vehicles in which people drive are safe. prevent young people from reoffending, and a desire that prison is better at educating people for the future, Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): Michael but he cannot ignore the advances that have been made Foot and the Labour party never needed, and do not or that youth reoffending is down 25 per cent. need now, any lectures in patriotism. He was one of the greatest patriots this country has ever had. In the light Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): In this week which of the speech given by the former head of MI5 yesterday, includes international women’s day and mothers’ day, is will the Prime Minister tell us when protests were made the Prime Minister aware that Mumsnet is organising a to the United States over the barbaric use of torture? group of women to come to the House on Friday to When did MI5 officers know what was happening, and remind us all that 500,000 women around the world die is it not clear from our experience in Northern Ireland in childbirth every year, and 2 million children die on that such torture as used in the United States is counter- the first day of their lives? Will he commit to action to productive and will not help in the fight against terrorism? reduce the number of deaths among women giving birth and newly born children? The Prime Minister: We do not support or condone torture; we condemn torture. Any allegations of torture The Prime Minister: I applaud the work done by my will go to the proper authorities to be investigated. hon. Friend, the White Ribbon Alliance for Safe Motherhood and other organisations to highlight the Q4. [321222] Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) avoidable loss of maternal life during childbirth and the (LD): Last week, 170 families in Sutton Cheam and damage arising from the fact that the children born are Worcester park learned that their children had not been without mothers. The themes of the G8 this year will be offered a place at the local high school in my to make advances on maternal mortality, and to ensure constituency. That means that many boys and girls in that mothers are better prepared and given better help. my area are the casualties of an unfair admissions It is not a huge amount of money that each mother system that has condemned them to go to schools that needs to have a safe pregnancy, but it is vital that are unpopular and miles away from their homes. Will together we all ensure that those supplies are available. the Prime Minister look at my private Member’s Bill To reduce maternal and infant mortality is one of the setting out proposals to deal with that issue, and will he great causes of our time. I hope that the whole House take the steps necessary to ensure that no child gets left can support that cause. behind in this way again? 295 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 296

The Prime Minister: At the moment, as the hon. The Prime Minister: I share the condolences that my Gentleman knows, the admissions framework ensures hon. Friend has expressed for those who died in his that all parents are free to consider the right school, not constituency on Sunday. It is not just Sir Alan Budd, just the nearest. Last year more than 85 per cent. of the senior adviser to the Conservative party on fiscal Sutton parents secured one of their three most preferred policy, who has said that we cannot remove the fiscal schools. I recognise the intention behind his comments, stimulus now; it is every sensible piece of opinion and but I have to tell him that anything that narrows the every sensible expert opinion in this country and other range of schools available to all families is not something countries. How the Conservatives can be in a position we can support. where they want to cut public spending now, at the moment when the recovery is fragile, I do not know. Q5. [321223] John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) They were wrong on the issues as we entered the recession, (Lab): Will my right hon. Friend allay my fears and they were wrong in calling for cuts at the height of the those of my constituents about the two carriers, and recession, and they are now wrong in calling for cuts as not do what the Leader of the Opposition, in his we try to escape the recession. On every major economic feigned anger, and his defence spokesman have done, policy question they have been wrong, wrong and wrong which is to say that they will open up any contracts and again. look for break clauses on day one of the next Q7. [321225] Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): Will Government? the Prime Minister give an unequivocal commitment that no Labour Government will renege on the opt-out The Prime Minister: Once again, we are committed to negotiated in the 1972 European Communities the aircraft carriers and to the programme that is necessary accession treaty to zero-rate value added tax on food, for the Navy and for the defence of our country. We are children’s clothes, newspapers and books? going ahead with the aircraft carrier programme because we believe, on the recommendations of our defence The Prime Minister: We made a decision in November staff, that it is the right thing to do. My hon. Friend is not to go ahead with VAT, but to go ahead with a right that it would be far better if there was all-party national insurance rise. In fact, traditionally the party consensus on the issue and if we had support from the that has raised VAT is the Conservative party. The Opposition on the aircraft carriers. Their silence on this Conservatives raised it from 8 to 15 per cent., and then issue today suggests that they cannot commit themselves to 17.5 per cent. The Tory tax is VAT, and they have to the aircraft programme; and as the shadow Chancellor imposed it many, many times. has hinted, it may be one of the first cuts under a Conservative Government. The public are owed an Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): Was it not under a answer from the Conservatives about what their position Labour Government that NATO was created, and does really is. the Prime Minister agree that it was British soldiers from all political parties and no political party who joined our forces throughout the cold war to defeat Miss Ann Widdecombe (Maidstone and The Weald) Soviet expansionism? And does he not recall that it was (Con): In view of the answer that the Prime Minister Governments of all colours— gave to the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) a few moments ago, could he say why, when stillbirths Mr. Speaker: Order. We have got the question. are running at more than 3,600, and deaths of children in the first seven days of life are running at more than The Prime Minister: I think it is important in this 1,700, he has yet to implement the recommendations of House that people recognise where there is agreement the neonatal taskforce that reported to the Government and where there is not. There is agreement on our last year? membership of NATO, and there was agreement on what we had to do to end the cold war. There has been The Prime Minister: I do know a lot about this issue, agreement that we need to finance our defence forces and I know about the problems that arise. I know that more, and there has been agreement that we needed to there are issues affecting health inequalities, as well as take action in Iraq and Afghanistan—[Interruption.] issues of medicine involved, and I assure the right hon. And I have to say that, for the Conservatives to reduce Lady that we are doing everything we can to reduce the big issues to ridicule shows just how juvenile their number of infant deaths and to ensure, as I said to my behaviour in this House is. hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) Q8. [321226] Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): It is unfair earlier, that mothers too are safe in childbirth. I can on rail passengers and contrary to the Government’s assure the right hon. Lady that we will do everything carbon reduction strategy that, since 1997, the cost of that we can. motoring has decreased by 14 per cent. while the cost of rail fares has gone up in real terms by 13 per cent. Q6. [321224] Mr. William Bain (Glasgow, North-East) Given that a large reason for this is the Government’s (Lab): I am sure that the House will join me in offering policy of forcing up rail fares by 1 per cent. above condolences to the family of those who died so inflation every single year, will the Prime Minister now tragically in my constituency on Sunday. Turning to the give the House and the country an assurance that, if a economy, does my right hon. Friend share the view of Labour Government are re-elected, they will end their the executive board of the International Monetary RPI plus 1 policy and their train fare escalator? Fund and a growing band of leading economists, including Sir Alan Budd, that to slash public The Prime Minister: The railways are carrying more investment this year would drive us back into recession passengers and more freight than ever since the and destroy jobs? second world war, and we will be announcing plans 297 Oral Answers10 MARCH 2010 Oral Answers 298 tomorrow to expand our railways to ensure that we we approach the general election, will he affirm that this have the most modern railways for the future. I believe Government support public service broadcasting and that passengerswelcome the fact not only that we the BBC? have better services but that trains arrive on time. It is important to recognise the huge investment that The Prime Minister: What worries me more is the this Government have made in the railways of this Conservative campaign to undermine the BBC, Ofcom country. and British Telecom. The Conservatives have made announcements that put at risk the future of digitalisation Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Is and broadband in this country. We are determined that my right hon. Friend aware of the insidious campaign everyone in this country has access to broadband and of the Murdoch empire to undermine public service access to the best services. The Conservative policy broadcasting in general and the BBC in particular? As would make sure that 100 per cent. did not have full access. 299 10 MARCH 2010 Points of Order 300

Points of Order behalf of my constituents asking how that man could become a Privy Counsellor when he fulfilled none of 12.32 pm the criteria required to become one. As I said, I wrote Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): On a point on 14 January with a legitimate question about someone of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sure that the Leader of the who sits in the other place, but, as far as I can see, has Opposition did not mean to mislead the House when he no right to be a Privy Counsellor. I have had no reply, so said that Michael Foot was a friend of the Soviet can you help me, Mr. Speaker, to elicit a reply from a Union. Michael was a staunch anti-Stalinist and a critic Prime Minister who will not answer questions? of the Soviet Union. When I was put in prison by the Mr. Speaker: I am sorry to disappoint the hon. communists in Warsaw for supporting Solidarity, Gentleman, who is an assiduous attender and is frequently Michael Foot came to support my release, at a time inclined to raise points of order, but I am afraid that when Margaret Thatcher was denying visas to Poles what he said was not a point of order, but a point of who were trying to escape from communism. We need frustration. Let me make two observations for his benefit to learn some history, which the Leader of the Opposition and for that of the House. First, I remind the hon. is wholly incapable of. Gentleman that Members should not criticise Members Mr. Speaker: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for of the other place other than on a substantive motion. I his attempted point of order. With his customary force have had reason to make this point before, and I hope and clarity, he has put his views on the record. I must that I shall not have to keep repeating it. [Interruption.] say to him and to the House that I was, of course, Order. I am trying to help the hon. Gentleman; he listening very carefully to what the Leader of the Opposition should be grateful to me, although he shows no sign of said—I always listen carefully to what every right hon. it. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman refers to a letter that and hon. Member says—and my distinct recollection is he has sent. I know that he attaches enormous importance that he referred to his disagreement with the views of to his letter, and so do I, but a letter is not a parliamentary Mr. Foot on the subject of nuclear disarmament— question, so it does not constitute a parliamentary [Interruption.] Will the right hon. Member for Rotherham proceeding. (Mr. MacShane) let me finish? [Interruption.] Order. I will deal with this. The right hon. Gentleman has asked Several hon. Members rose— me for a ruling, and he is going to get it. He ought to listen to my ruling, which I hope the House will do as Mr. Speaker: Mr. Fabricant will have to wait a moment. well. The Leader of the Opposition said that he disagreed He has already had one go and I will give him another with Mr. Foot’s views on nuclear weapons and on the in a moment. Soviet Union, but he certainly did not accuse him of supporting the Soviet Union— Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. This is on a similar matter and I wonder Mr. MacShane rose— whether you can help me. I wrote to the Prime Minister on 11 November about a serious matter—what I believe Mr. Speaker: Order. I do not want to get into any to be prima facie evidence of a serious breach of the further debate on the matter, and I do not think that the ministerial code by the former Prime Minister, Tony right hon. Gentleman seriously expects me to do so. Blair. I have had one acknowledgement. I subsequently Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): On a point of wrote to the Prime Minister again on 19 January and order, Mr. Speaker. Can we celebrate an unusual 9 February, but he shows no sign of wishing to respond occasion—namely, an apology from a Secretary of State? to this serious matter. There is every indication that he Is there a way of putting it on the official Hansard wants to get past the election before replying. Can you record? The Speaker will know that— help me, Mr. Speaker, in any way to secure a proper reply to this most serious issue? Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sorry to cut the hon. Gentleman off; it is always a pleasure to listen to his Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman rarely requires any mellifluous tones. Even as he is delivering his attempted help in the pursuit of his political campaigns. I had an point of order, however, he is barely able to conceal his advance inkling of his intended point of order, but the smile, for the simple reason that he knows perfectly well problem is that it is not a point of order for the Chair. that what he is saying does not constitute a point of Let me tell the hon. Gentleman why not. First, it relates order— to a letter. The hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) attaches as much importance to his letter as does Michael Fabricant rose— the hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness (Mr. Stuart) Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has put his to his, but it does not constitute a parliamentary proceeding. views on the official record—[Interruption.] Well, he That is the first point. The second is that I am not has as far as I am concerned, and he is not going to have responsible for the ministerial code. The hon. Member the opportunity to do so any further. I have made my for Lewes may well think that I should be, and I am position clear, and I shall brook no contradiction. grateful to him for his support and encouragement, but I am not. Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask you, as a Michael Fabricant: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. defender of Back-Bencher rights, to help me? I wrote to The Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families the Prime Minister on 14 January about Lord Paul, who has apologised to my hon. Friend the Member for you may remember, Mr. Speaker, drove the Armstrong Surrey Heath (Michael Gove) in a letter—not my letter, pension fund into deficit, robbing thousands of their but his letter. How can it get broader publicity and be rightful pensions. I wrote to the Prime Minister on recorded in the House? 301 Points of Order10 MARCH 2010 Points of Order 302

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is abusing points respond more quickly, but we will clearly have to step of order. I have the highest regard for the hon. Gentleman, up our efforts. If the right hon. Lady is asking me but when he talks about how to achieve wider publicity, whether I am open to the idea that new measures might he knows that he has achieved his objective. He should be required in a subsequent Parliament to bring about not abuse our procedures any further. improvement, I can assure her that I am as open-minded about that as I am about most other matters. Dr. Stephen Ladyman (South Thanet) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not know whether you Michael Gove (Surrey Heath) (Con): On a point of noticed in this morning’s obituary columns the passing order, Mr. Speaker. You will have noted that earlier, of Andrée Peel, who was known as “agent X” in the during the heated exchanges that characterise Prime second world war and saved the lives of many hundreds Minister’s Question Time, a number of Labour Back of allied servicemen before being tortured and put in a Benchers said that Cross Benchers in another place— concentration camp. There seems to be no clear mechanism specifically Lords Guthrie and Boyce—were Tories. They by which Members can pay their respects to the passing attributed to distinguished public servants political partiality. of great people such as this gallant lady, so I wondered May we have a ruling on the appropriateness of Members whether you, Mr. Speaker, would give some consideration of this House accusing Members of another House to providing such a mechanism in the future. who are distinguished public servants of speaking from a partisan position, when all that they have ever done Mr. Speaker: As the hon. Gentleman knows, we throughout their careers is stand up for the principle of debated parliamentary reform last Thursday, but it is of public service? course a matter of continuing business. I am very open to suggestions from the hon. Gentleman and others, but Mr. Speaker: I note what the hon. Gentleman has in the short term, it is open to him to table an early-day said—with his usual alacrity—and my response is that I motion to express his admiration for the deceased individual. think that, albeit with the most public-spirited motives, In the light of what he has said about her, he might well he is seeking to continue an earlier argument or debate, find that he could muster quite a lot of support. and I do not think that that would be seemly today. Miss Ann Widdecombe (Maidstone and The Weald) Let me add for the benefit of the hon. Gentleman (Con): Thank you for calling me, Mr. Speaker. I was that the utterances to which he was referring were getting worried because my hon. Friend the Member delivered from a sedentary position. The Members for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) has had two points of concerned were not on their feet, and it was not easy for order and I had not had any. Over the last 13 years, I me—particularly given the amount of noise and have asked you, Mr. Speaker, your predecessors, the hubbub—to see precisely who was guilty. But I will keep Cabinet Secretary, almighty God and just about anyone an eye on it, and I know that the hon. Gentleman will I can think of to try to get the Government to answer encourage me in my efforts to do so. questions—not letters, but questions, which are parliamentary proceedings, Mr. Speaker. What recourse Several hon. Members rose— do Back Benchers have against the Government from the Prime Minister downwards when Ministers are Mr. Speaker: Mr. Chope has been very patient. We determined not to answer questions? must give him a go. Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for her point of order. What I would say to her is this. First, Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I am we introduced, very recently, a tracking system whereby normally very patient, Mr. Speaker. information on which questions had been answered by On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, may I draw your Departments and which had not would be publicly attention to motion 7 on today’s Order Paper, which available. It was my hope, and that of others in the stands in the name of the Financial Secretary? It calls House, that that mechanism of transparency would be on the House to authorise the amazing sum of a sufficient spur to trigger speedier responses than £23,893,853,000, which represents excess expenditure Members had been receiving. I think that the right hon. by the Government in the year ending 31 March 2009. I Lady should exercise a degree of patience— think that that is probably the largest sum of money that any Government have ever spent in excess of any Miss Widdecombe: I have not got long. supplementary estimate or authorisation of the House. As you will know, Mr. Speaker, this matter goes to Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Lady has a long time left the heart of the purpose of being in this legislature, on the planet, albeit probably not much time left in the which is to hold the Government to account on issues House. of expenditure. How will we be able to hold a debate on I hope that that system will have the desired effect. the motion under the rules of the House, given that it However, let me also say to the right hon. Lady and to has been tabled in a form that precludes debate and Ministers that when Members table parliamentary only allows it to go through on the nod or following a questions, they are entitled to speedy and substantive vote? It has been said that it would then be incorporated replies. in a Consolidated Fund Bill, but it would not be possible The right hon. Lady should know that I have often for us to debate that either. discussed this matter with the Leader of the House. I Perhaps your Clerk is advising you, Mr. Speaker, that know that the Leader of the House attaches great the matter is under the control of the Public Accounts importance to it and constantly drives Ministers to Committee. I am advised that the Public Accounts 303 Points of Order10 MARCH 2010 Points of Order 304

Committee was told that it had no authority to do the House agreed without a Division to set up a Back-Bench anything other than allow the motion to be tabled on Business Committee in time for the start of the next the Order Paper and to be nodded through. Parliament. Will you confirm, Mr. Speaker, that the only way that can be done is if a Standing Order is Mr. Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, passed in this Parliament to do that job? Will you but I think that I have heard enough of what he has to further confirm that, at least for the time being, that say to be able to formulate a coherent response. I am Standing Order can only be put on the agenda above grateful to him for his attempts at lip reading, or simply the line by the Government? Finally, will you confirm at hearing the advice of the Clerks, but I am afraid that that, given that the House has spoken overwhelmingly on this occasion he is mistaken in his supposition as to in favour of the matter, it would be a block to necessary the views of the Clerks. I know that the hon. Gentleman and voted-for reform and would, indeed, defy the will has both an active mind and a fertile imagination, but in of the House if that Standing Order were not brought this case he is getting ahead of himself. We have not got forward by this Government in this Parliament to be to that matter yet. We will get to it in due course. I know passed and to implement the will of the House as voted that the hon. Gentleman deprecates the fact that there for last Thursday? will be no opportunity for a debate on it, but it will be conducted in accordance with the agreed procedures of Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the House is present and the House. The hon. Gentleman is nothing but an may want to respond, but the hon. Gentleman’s supposition enthusiastic proceduralist and so there will be an about the Standing Order is, in my judgment, correct opportunity, if he remains dissatisfied, to divide the and work is in hand. I know that he is by nature—perhaps House. That is something on matters of this kind to rightly—of a suspicious disposition, but I do not think which the hon. Gentleman is no stranger. that he should be too suspicious. If the Leader of the House wants to comment, she is welcome to do so but Mr. Chope: Further to that point of order— she is under no obligation. Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is getting The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet very excited. I shall take a point of order from him once Harman): Further to that point of order, I can reassure more, but I appeal to Members to calm down—there the hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon was a point at which I thought that the House was (Dr. Harris) that of course we will not defy the will of going to have a collective fit. The national health service the House. We are completely clear that once a resolution has enough responsibility as it is outside this House. is passed by the House that requires Standing Orders to put it into effect, that is what will happen next. Throughout Mr. Chope: I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that you will all this, there has been a climate of unwarranted suspicion. appreciate the difference between having a chance for a We should all be pleased and gratified with the progress debate and just having a vote. Since this is, as you that has been made and the hon. Gentleman should be rightly say, an issue of procedure, should Government confident that further progress will be made. excesses of the order of £23 billion appear on the Order Paper in future, would you recommend that the Procedure Several hon. Members: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Committee should look into the issue to decide whether Mr. Speaker: I should say that we have other business it should be subject to a debate rather than going to which to attend and I think that people will realise through on the nod or on a vote? that I have been very generous. I have been very generous Mr. Speaker: What I would say to the hon. Gentleman— to the hon. Member for Lichfield, but I think that I am this becomes curiouser and curiouser—is that I am well going to make him wait a little. aware, because I made the point myself, that the matter Paul Flynn (Newport, West) (Lab): On a point of is subject to a vote but not to a debate. I am genuinely a order, Mr. Speaker. In the Indian Parliament and Canadian little surprised and even tickled that the hon. Gentleman Parliament, they have a period, known as the zero hour should suggest that I invite the Procedure Committee to in the Indian Parliament, in which Members can raise consider this matter. The hon. Gentleman is a distinguished any subject they wish for a limited time—about a minute. and celebrated member of the said Committee and he We have just spent nearly 20 minutes on points of order, has never before required any encouragement from me very few of which were genuine points of order. In your to press for a Committee of which he is a member to consideration of reform of Parliament, should we not consider a matter. have our own zero hour where people can raise any Mr. Chope indicated dissent. matters they wish for a limited period? Mr. Speaker: There is no point in the hon. Gentleman Mr. Speaker: Yes, I think that one point is noted and shaking his head in evident disapproval of what is being that the other is for the Procedure Committee. I am said from the Chair. The procedure on this matter, I grateful on this occasion, as I am always to the hon. should emphasise to all attending to our proceedings, is Member, for his helpful point of order. a procedure of the House on which the House has Mr. Graham Stuart: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. agreed. It was not decreed by me. I know that the hon. Gentleman would not want to convey any contrary Mr. Speaker: Yes, but I hope that we are getting near impression. to the end. I think that people might be interested in hearing other matters debated. Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am glad that the Mr. Stuart: Further to my earlier point of order, Leader of the House is in her place—or nearly in her Mr. Speaker—thank you for the decision that you made place—for this point of order. Last Thursday, historically, then—may I ask for your help regarding the fact that, 305 Points of Order10 MARCH 2010 Points of Order 306

[Mr. Graham Stuart] hands of the Leader of the House, of all people, is there anything that can be done to rectify it? Perhaps I am last week, the Leader of the House, who is almost in her being unfair, but it feels as though a Back Bencher such place, made entirely unwarranted and unfounded allegations as myself would be fallen upon very quickly and very about the noble Lord Ashcroft, who has entirely met all hard, but that the Leader of the House was able repeatedly the promises— to malign the noble Lord Ashcroft in, to my mind, an entirely unfounded and unwarranted way. Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat. I have been extremely fair in taking a lot of Mr. Speaker: Members of this House should use points of order and in trying genuinely to respond in their privileges in a responsible way. What I said about detail to them. It is not right to abuse the procedure of the substantive motion stands. The hon. Gentleman making points of order to develop, extend or start will be the first to accept that I cannot rewrite or excise debates. We have important matters to consider. May I the record, and it would be totally wrong and improper just say that I have appreciated a lot of good humour, for me to do so. I can only reiterate that people should and I have also noted some bad temper, but that we behave in a proper way. If I intervened to stop someone really ought to have some regard in this House to the from saying something, it was because I judged that the way in which we are perceived by the voters whose line had been crossed, but it is not always a straightforward, support we shall shortly be seeking and who pay our yes or no, black or white matter. Many things were said salaries? They do not want this House to behave in a of which the hon. Gentleman might have disapproved disrespectful or abusive way, or to waste time. but which were not disorderly. I hope that he will regard me as a fair-minded referee who is doing his best to Mr. Stuart: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. protect the rights of Members of the House. I think that is enough said. Mr. Speaker: No, I am not going to take a further point of order from the hon. Gentleman. I have been Ms Harman: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. very generous. Can you confirm that it is in no way out of order for matters to be discussed in this House that are the Michael Fabricant: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. subject of big controversy outside the House? Is it not I wonder whether you could explain something. If an the case that you have sought to make what we debate in hon. or right hon. Gentleman inadvertently misleads the House more topical and better matched to issues of the House in the Chamber and subsequently admits public concern? Is it not also the case that there is no outside the Chamber that he has inadvertently misled way that this House, or any hon. Member in it, should the House, how can that be put on the record? If be prevented from putting a question of fact to the something is not published in Hansard in detail, explaining House and talking about facts? Will you confirm that what has been said and what was subsequently admitted the facts that I put forward—that an assurance was to be wrong, surely it will be giving a misleading and given that tens of millions of pounds would be paid by wrong impression to the public whom we wish to serve. Lord Ashcroft, and that it then came out that tens of millions of pounds was not paid—were matters of fact? Mr. Speaker: The difficulty with the hon. Gentleman’s point of order is that he is expressing himself in hypothetical Mr. Speaker: Order. What I would say to the Leader terms. [Interruption.] Order. It is not reasonable therefore of the House is that Members from the most senior in for him to expect me to reply. [Interruption.] I have seen the Government to the most recently arrived Back a letter on this matter, but I am not sure that it quite Bencher are perfectly free to air their views and concerns warrants the description that he has just offered. about public issues, subject to two important caveats. [Interruption.] Order. He should calm himself. What I First, they must do so within the rules of the House. would say to him is that if he is genuinely interested in Secondly, and relatedly, they must do so when the issue exploring this matter further, it is open to him—and in question is a matter of Government responsibility. I perhaps I encourage him—to write to me about it. I will said what I said last week, and I am not going to be study his letter with care and if anything disorderly has drawn or inveigled by any Member into criticising a taken place, he will learn about that. Member who spoke last week. I have not done that and I was genuinely sorry to see the hon. Member for I am not going to do that. I sense that some Members Beverley and Holderness in a state of some angst and are trying to get me to take sides against particular obviously feeling that he had a justified grievance. I do answers that have been given, but I am not going to do not think that he did have, but I am going to be fair to that. I will judge matters on a case-by-case basis. I have him. If he wants to have one more go, he can, but he no objection either to what the hon. Member for Beverley had better not take any liberties. and Holderness has said, or to what the Leader of the House has just said. Mr. Stuart: I am extremely grateful, Mr. Speaker. I think that there will be a general sense in the House, That is most kind. You rightly ruled that Members of and certainly beyond, that we really ought to move on the other House should not be maligned in this place to other matters, and specifically to a very important without a substantive motion coming before the House. matter—as is being chuntered from a sedentary position When that happens, however, and it seemed to me that by the person whose interest it is. Mr. William Cash will it happened last week to the noble Lord Ashcroft at the present his Bill. 307 Points of Order 10 MARCH 2010 308

BILL PRESENTED Remembrance Sunday (Closure of Shops) Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (UNDUE INFLUENCE) No. 23) BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Mr. William Cash, supported by Mr. Edward Leigh, 12.57 pm Mr. Iain Duncan Smith, Mr. Nigel Evans, Mr. Andrew Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): At Turner, Mr. Charles Walker, Sir Nicholas Winterton, last, Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, Ann Winterton, Mr. Peter Bone, Mr. Brian Binley, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the Philip Davies and Mark Pritchard, presented a Bill to extension of Christmas Day restrictions on the opening of retail amend the Representation of the People Act 1983 to premises to Remembrance Sunday; and for connected purposes. extend the concept of undue influence; and for connected After what I can describe only as a very fractious purposes. hour, I hope that the modest proposal that I shall make Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on to the House will unite us. Every week, in Prime Minister’s Friday 23 April, and to be printed (Bill 85). questions, we all listen with sadness to the list of names that the Prime Minister reads out of those who have given their lives for their country in Afghanistan. What has happened in the past few years has given added significance to the annual commemoration of those who have laid down their lives for their country over the past century. Remembrance Sunday looms large in the calendar and has real meaning for people throughout the United Kingdom, and it seems to me right that the House should recognise that. That there is a public feeling of wanting to recognise it is made manifest every time that sad procession drives through Wootton Bassett and people come and respectfully stand. I am bound to say, in parenthesis, that that is rather exploited by the media, but that is another story. That there is true feeling, true sadness and a wish to show how much we appreciate those who have made the supreme sacrifice is all too evident. What I am seeking to do with this Bill is to put Remembrance Sunday on the same footing as Easter Sunday and Christmas day. Christmas day was given exemption in the Sunday Trading Act 1994, and a special status in the Bill introduced in 2004 by the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr. Jones). On whatever day of the week it falls, the large shops are closed. I believe that this a very modest but very sensible proposal. It is extremely difficult for members of the British Legion in some towns and cities to organise their remembrance parades because of the clutter, hustle and bustle of the high street on Sunday. Many people who would wish to pay their respects by standing silently at the local cenotaph are local shop workers. This Bill has the very strong support of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, and I am delighted to be able to introduce it. The Bill would not affect farm shops, pharmacies, petrol filling stations, shops at airports or railway stations, or shops at exhibitions that are specially staged on a Sunday. Rather, it would mean that large shops—those of 280 square meters, or 3,000 square feet, and above— would not be able to open on Remembrance Sunday. It would also mean that the loading restrictions in force for Easter day and Christmas day would apply. When we first debated Sunday trading, I was one of those who strongly opposed the removal of all restrictions. I said in a speech then that, if we abolished all the restrictions, we would end up with a high street Sunday that was a replica of Saturday. Whatever view colleagues take of Sunday trading, no one can deny that that is what has happened. In all our major towns and cities, 309 Remembrance Sunday (Closure of 10 MARCH 2010 310 Shops) [Sir Patrick Cormack] Estimates Day the hustle and bustle and activity on a Sunday mirror [2ND ALLOTTED DAY] that of the day before, the Saturday. Surely it is not too much to ask that only a second Sunday of the year—and, on those rare occasions when Christmas day falls on a SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 2009-10 Sunday, a third—should be set aside. Christmas day is a great day of family celebration. Easter day is too and, like Christmas, it is also a great DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH religious festival. However, there are very few families in the land who have not been touched in one way or Alcohol another by the conflicts of the last century. My mother died in 2000, at the age of 90. When I [Relevant Document: The First Report from the Health went through her papers, I was amazed to discover that Committee, on Alcohol, HC 151.] she had lost no fewer than seven cousins in the great Motion made, and Question proposed, war. All of us have similar stories in our families. Today, That, for the year ending with 31 March 2010, for expenditure young men and women are serving on the front line in by the Department of Health— Afghanistan, and a number of them will never come (1) further resources, not exceeding £969,893,000, be authorised back. for use as set out in HC 257, Those of us who have been privileged to welcome our (2) a further sum, not exceeding £606,272,000, be granted to returning troops as they marched into New Palace Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund to meet the costs as so Yard—with your permission, Mr. Speaker—have been set out, and deeply moved by the spirit, dedication, determination, (3) limits as so set out be set on appropriations in aid.—(Helen bravery and quiet courage of those young people. We Jones.) have also been moved by their eagerness to get back. We have just gone though the war in Iraq, and we are 1.6 pm still at war in Afghanistan. I really feel that we should Mr. Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): May I begin, set aside Remembrance Sunday, so that the remembrance Mr. Speaker, by saying how much I welcome the ceremonies can be conducted with proper and due opportunity to take part in this debate? You will be decorum, and so that the ringing of the cash till does aware that we published a report on alcohol in January. not drown out the observance of the silence. We are about to get a response from the Government, I hope that the Government will accept this Bill, and although sadly not in time for this debate. that my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Opposition Most hon. Members will know that the problem of Benches and in the other parties will support it. I have alcohol goes way beyond the Department of Health based it on the one introduced by the hon. Member for and into many other areas of Government. We expect North Durham a few years ago, and if the House gives the Government’s response later this month but, given me leave I will publish it later today. I shall name a day the election that is well on its way, it would have been for Second reading that will make it possible for the Bill wrong not to take this opportunity to debate the issue to be enacted in time for Remembrance Sunday this as it affects this country, in the light of the Health year. Committee’s report. We are preparing to enter an election in which we will I do not want to go into too much detail today, but debate with each other— perfectly honourably and anyone who has read the report will know how wide the honestly—on a range of issues about which we disagree. Committee went with the evidence that it took and the However, I believe that it is right and proper for us to recommendations that it made. I have been concerned come together over this measure, which I think will have for many years that the House has looked at alcohol widespread support throughout the country. from the point of view of antisocial behaviour. That is Question put and agreed to. quite right, as that aspect is very important: communities Ordered, and neighbourhoods are being disturbed by people who That Sir Patrick Cormack, Dr. Vincent Cable, are binge drinking and having too much to drink, and Mr. Christopher Chope, Rosie Cooper, Mr. Nigel Dodds, that has a major knock-on effect, in families, communities Christopher Fraser, Kate Hoey, Mr. Elfyn Llwyd, and town centres. Dr. Richard Taylor, Miss Ann Widdecombe, Sir Nicholas It was right and proper for the Government to take Winterton and Dr. Tony Wright present the Bill. action to prevent that, but I and other members of the Sir Patrick Cormack accordingly presented the Bill. Committee have been worried about the consequences of excessive alcohol over time. In the report, we looked Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on at what is happening now, at the beginning of the Friday 12 March and to be printed (Bill 84). 21st century, but we also went back to Hogarth’s London and all the gin and so on that was drunk then. We took a look at the history of alcohol in this country. There is no doubt that English drinking habits have been transformed over the last 60 years. In 1947, the nation consumed approximately 3.5 litres of pure alcohol per head; the current figure is 9.5 litres. General Household Survey data from 2006 show that 31 per cent. of men are drinking hazardously, consuming more than 21 units 311 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 312 per week, and that 9 per cent. are drinking harmfully, at with the assistance of Liberal and Labour Members in more than 50 units per week. The figures also showed Scotland. Will he give them advice? Will he help them that 21 per cent. of women are drinking hazardously and us to implement those recommendations? and 6 per cent. harmfully, although the House will be aware that the unit size recommended for women is Mr. Barron: The Health Committee is designated to lower than that for men. consider England and Wales, not the devolved Assemblies. Although the consumption of alcohol has increased, What the hon. Gentleman mentions is a matter for the taxation on spirits has declined in real terms, and even Scottish Parliament, but I hear what he says. Whether more so as a fraction of average earnings. I want to put other people hear what he says is a matter for them. it on the record this afternoon—it is stated in the Let me go straight on to say that we note that report—that rising alcohol consumption and its minimum pricing is supported by many prominent health consequences have become an increasing source of concern experts, economists and the Association of Chief Police in recent years. The consequences include those not Officers, which gave evidence to the Committee. Indeed, only of binge drinking, which causes many serious the chief medical officer in his latest annual report accidents, disorder, violence and crime, but of long-term supports the introduction of minimum pricing. I will go heavy drinking, which causes more harm to health. a bit further into that detail in a few minutes. The president of the Royal College of Physicians gave evidence to the Committee and told us that alcohol Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): How does was probably a significant factor in 30,000 to 40,000 deaths the right hon. Gentleman reconcile the fact that alcohol a year. The World Health Organisation has put alcohol is relatively cheap in France, yet the incidence of alcohol- as the third most frequent cause of death after hypertension related disease is declining there, as he said, whereas and tobacco. UK deaths from liver cirrhosis increased alcohol is relatively expensive in this country and we more than fivefold between 1970 and 2006. By contrast, have a bigger problem? in France, Italy and Spain, the number of deaths shrank between twofold and fourfold. This country’s number Mr. Barron: In part, the answer is cultural and I will of deaths from cirrhosis is now greater than that in all come on to that, as we need to consider it. However, we those countries. went to France to take some evidence last September, and we found that, instead of what was considered to be The hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor), who steady consumption, binge drinking by young people is is a member of the Health Committee, was a hospital increasing there. France may face the problems that we physician for many years, and we once used a phrase in are experiencing in this country if it does not take exchanges to the effect that 30 years ago cirrhosis of the appropriate action. I am not saying that we know what liver was something that old men died of. We were action should be taken at every level, but if France talking about people probably between the ages of follows our pattern of binge drinking among young 60 and 70. Now we see in the media that young women people—it looks as though things are moving that and men in their 20s are dying of that disease, which is way—it will have to take more action. Certainly, we related to an accumulation of alcohol over time, or the must take more action to try to overcome the problem. quantities in their case. We as a country should not ignore what is happening to the health of those individuals. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): On the price of That disease—there are other similar diseases—is something alcohol, 40 or 50 years ago the death rate from alcohol that should concern us. It is not an old man’s disease in France was quite appalling. It was monstrous. Perhaps anymore. the French have learned from their terrible history that In 2003, the Prime Minister’s strategy unit estimated alcohol causes terrible health problems and death, and the total cost of alcohol to society at some £20 billion. perhaps we have yet to learn that lesson properly. Another study in 2007 put the figure at £55 billion. Faced by a mounting problem, the response of successive Mr. Barron: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, Governments has ranged from the non-existent to the and I hope that the hon. Member for Westbury ineffectual. In 2004, an alcohol strategy was published, (Dr. Murrison) appreciates it. Anyway, minimum pricing following an excellent study of the cost of alcohol by needs to be looked at further. the strategy unit, but I have to tell my hon. Friend the A myth is widely propagated by parts of the drinks Minister that the strategy failed to take account of the industry and politicians that a rise in prices would evidence that had been gathered and was not implemented. unfairly affect the majority of moderate drinkers. Precisely The evidence showed that a rise in the price of alcohol because they are moderate drinkers, a minimum price was the most effective way to reduce consumption, just of, for example, 40p per unit of alcohol would have little as its increasing affordability since the 1960s has been effect. It would effectively mean that a woman who the major cause of the rise in consumption. drinks the recommended maximum of 15 units a week could buy her weekly total of alcohol for £6. Of course, Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I probably not everyone drinks industrial white cider congratulate the right hon. Gentleman and his Committee only. on producing a consensual, constructive report, and I hope that they are successful in getting the recommendations Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): I thank implemented. Will he compare and contrast the consensual the right hon. Gentleman for sharing the Committee’s way that he and his colleagues approach the issue with interesting report with us. Will he clarify, however, that what has happened in Scotland, where Liberal and the £6 figure relates to the off-trade and that no one Labour Members have acted as an oppositionist bloc to could buy those units at that price in the on-trade? That stop the very recommendations that he suggests? We is, of course, one of the big problems that we face, as the could implement those recommendations in Scotland Committee acknowledges. 313 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 314

Mr. Barron: That is in the report, and I will deal with Minimum pricing would also encourage a switch to it later in my speech if the hon. Gentleman will allow weaker wines and beers—the Committee emphasised me. that point. With a minimum price of 40 per cent. per Opponents also claim that heavy drinkers are insensitive unit, a 10 per cent. alcohol by volume wine would cost a to price changes, but their consumption as a group will minimum of £2.80, and a 13 per cent. ABV wine about be most affected by price rises, as they drink so much of £3.60. Some people pay £6, £8 or £10 for bottle containing the alcohol purchased in this country. Minimum pricing six or eight units of alcohol. No one who buys wine at would most affect those who drink cheap alcohol—in that level will be hurt in the pocket. A good exercise for particular, young binge drinkers and heavy low-income Members to do the next time they go to the supermarket drinkers, who suffer most from liver disease. It is is to go along the shelves turning around the wine estimated that a minimum price of 50p per unit of bottles to see how many units of alcohol they contain, alcohol would save about 3,000 lives a year, and that a which will give them a practical idea of the effect of minimum price of 40p per unit of alcohol would save what we propose. In my view, average drinkers, as we 1,100 lives a year. call them, would not be harmed by what we propose. Of course, minimum pricing would have other benefits. Of course, without an increase in duty, minimum Unlike rises in duty, minimum pricing would benefit pricing would lead to an increase in the profits of traditional pubs—the on-trade, as the hon. Member for supermarkets and the drinks industry. Anyone who Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland) suggested—so, looks at our report will see what we said about how unsurprisingly, it is supported by the Campaign for supermarkets in particular promote alcohol and about Real Ale, which also gave evidence to the Committee. the mechanisms they use to do so—discounting and so We are all concerned about the closures of public on. I do not intend to discuss that this afternoon, but it houses in this country. They are closing for many reasons, is an important area for us to look at. To increase not necessarily just the price of alcohol, but it is true to profits in that way would not be helpful. say that minimum pricing would be more likely to We believe that alcohol duty should continue to rise support local, traditional pubs than to do anything year on year, but unlike in recent years, duty increases adverse to them. should predominantly be on stronger alcohol drinks, notably spirits. The hon. Member for Perth and North Graham Stringer (Manchester, Blackley) (Lab): I am Perthshire (Pete Wishart) mentioned the situation in following my right hon. Friend’s analysis closely. I am Scotland. The Committee learned that nowadays the not sure whether it leads me to the same conclusion spirit of choice in Scotland is the £5 bottle of vodka—we that we should interfere in the alcohol pricing can compare that with what spirits cost 10, 15 or mechanism across the board, but does he agree that the 20 years ago. Now, they are affordable to young people, duty on white cider, which is often what those people and they are drinking them—we provide evidence of who are most affected by alcohol are drinking, should that in our report. It is deeply worrying. be increased to the same as that on beer and that it is According to Treasury calculations—hon. Members wrong that the duty on spirits has increased by only can intervene on me to show how hopeless my 20 per cent. over the past 13 years, compared with understanding is—the duty on a bottle of spirits was 50 per cent. for beer? 60 per cent. of male average manual weekly earnings in 1947; in 1973, when value added tax was imposed in Mr. Barron: I was about to move on to precisely that addition to duty, duty was 16 per cent. of earnings; by issue. I understand that some industrial white cider, 1983, it was 11 per cent.; and by 2002, it had fallen to which is the most appropriate way to describe it, can be 5 per cent. According to calculations undertaken by the bought for 20p a unit in supermarkets. It is the stuff Treasury at the Committee’s request, for our report, if that we see young children and other people consuming the duty on a bottle of spirits had increased since the on park benches. That has to stop, but it is not stopping. early 1980s at the same rate as earnings, it would now be Indeed, it is being promoted in this country as we £62. If the rate had increased in line with the retail speak, and we have asked the Government to consider prices index and not with average male earnings, the that in detail. I am talking about pricing, but other hon. duty on a bottle of spirits would now be £38.60. The Members may want to talk about the wider issues raised Committee examined questions of licensing—who can by our report. sell alcohol—and accessibility in terms of where it can be obtained, but the accessibility of alcohol in terms of Kelvin Hopkins: I thank my right hon. Friend for income has seen an extraordinary turnaround, especially giving way yet again. On the problem of supermarkets that of the heavier stuff. versus pubs, thousands of young people get tanked up on cheap booze from supermarkets before they go the pub. Does that not undermine the pub and encourage Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): Has the right hon. irresponsible drinking, too? Gentleman decided not to consider the question of advertising because this is an estimates debate and he Mr. Barron: Yes. From the evidence that we took, I does not want to go down that road? Does he have any think it is called front-loading. Many years ago, when I concerns about the extent to which, through advertising, was working in industry and went out to the club on the excessive drinking of alcohol is glorified? Saturday nights, I often saw people bending down to bring out of their handbag little bottles of spirits to top Mr. Barron: There is great detail on that in our up their drinks. Front-loading has previously occurred report. The Committee did not talk only to the drinks in one or two areas, but I suspect that the availability of industry but took evidence from people who act as their alcohol in cost terms now means that people do not agents in promoting alcohol. Many years ago, when I have to do that with spirits any more. was looking at the promotion of tobacco, the methods 315 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 316 used in relation to various age groups, voluntary codes Mr. Barron: I agree entirely. Any parents in this day and so on, I probably had a firmer view on how tobacco and age who are giving their children cans or bottles of was promoted and was strongly opposed to it. I am alcohol, then dropping them off in a place where there pleased that this House has legislated in the House to is a culture of drinking, are not doing their children any get rid of it. The Committee did not make firm favours. It could well be argued that what they are doing recommendations on alcohol advertising, but there are is potentially shortening the lives of their own children. points on how alcohol is promoted and young people’s That is not a responsible position for any parent to take. perceptions. There are voluntary codes—people under It was not the position that I took as a parent, although 25 should not be used in advertising and so on. The I cannot tell my children what to do now: they are all subject is in our report, and perhaps one or two of my grown up and two have children themselves. Parents fellow members of the Committee will say something who do what my hon. Friend describes are doing no about it. I decided to stick with pricing in my speech, one, especially not their children, any favours, but it is but the hon. Gentleman raises an important matter. We happening. I do not have the statistics in front of me, spend public money on trying to educate people about but it is a well known fact that under-age drinkers get being more responsible; does alcohol promotion act much of their alcohol not just from somebody aged against our work on health education? I will leave that 18 buying it from the local shop and then handing it on question for another day, but it should be asked, none to them, but via their family. Parents should be well the less. aware of that. I have said what the duty on spirits would have been We said in the report that the policy must be aimed at had we not changed the mechanisms and dropped the the millions who are damaging their health by harmful links altogether in recent years. Neither I nor the Committee drinking, but it is time to recognise that problem drinkers recommend an immediate leap to those levels of duty reflect society’s attitude to alcohol. There is a good deal on spirits, but we should certainly make a start. Availability of evidence to show that the number of heavy drinkers of alcohol, not just in terms of where it can be bought in a society is directly related to average consumption. but in terms of cost, is, we believe, the reason for the Living in a culture that encourages drinking leads more increase in drinking in this country and in ill health people to drink to excess. Changing the culture will caused by alcohol. We think that a start should be require a raft of policies. This afternoon I am speaking made. We recommend that duties on spirits be returned about one of them—pricing—but there are many other in stages to the same percentage of average earnings as aspects that need to be addressed. in the past. The duty on industrial white cider should also be increased—there is no question about that. One of the most interesting statistics reported to the Industrial white cider is easily obtainable and cheaper Committee was that if people who drink in this country— per unit than other forms of alcohol, and is drunk by there are quite a lot of us—drank no more than the many binge drinkers, old and young. number of units per week recommended for women Beer under 2.8 per cent. ABV can be taxed at a and for men, alcohol consumption would be reduced by different rate. We recommend the duty on that category about 40 per cent. The alcohol industry was not happy of beer be reduced. Now, only one beer—Welton’s Pride to engage in the debate about that, but if those statistics ’n’ Joy, which is praised by CAMRA—is in that category. are true, as we believe they are, they indicate the extent The Treasury should consider how to set duties on to which people in the UK drink beyond the guidelines drinks, not to encourage people to stop drinking recommended to protect their health. alcohol—no one wants to make people stop—but to Let me deal with the Government response to the increase the availability of lower alcohol content drinks. report. As I said earlier, they are not in a position to That will help people to look after their health a little respond in the usual form, but my hon. Friend the better, which I would like to be able to do. That is what Minister put out a press release. I hope she was not the Committee arrived at, with Treasury decisions running planning to read it out this afternoon, as I shall quote alongside the wider issues. extensively from it. She stated in response to our report: Any prices increase must be part of a wider policy “Alcohol is an increasing challenge to people’s health. We”— aimed at changing our attitude to alcohol. It has been said that France’s drinking culture is different from that is, the Government— ours—children there aged five or six will have a glass of “are working hard to reverse the trend and are constantly seeking wine with meals and so on—but as I said, there is better ways to tackle it.” evidence of increasing binge drinking by young people. She continued: The French must be very aware of that. “Since 2004 this Government has adopted a strategic approach Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I apologise for not to tackle alcohol harms, from under-age drinking and binge being here at the start of my right hon. Friend’s interesting drinking through to longer-term harmful drinking.” speech. From talking to parents and police officers, I have learned that in parts of our community there That is true. It is also true that the tide is going against seems to be a culture of parents giving their children us. The policy is not working and there is no plan to drink to take out on to the street—in fact, some give make it work. their children drink, then drop them off at certain The Minister went on to say that known trouble spots, on the basis that they know where “current levels of alcohol-related hospital admissions, crime, and they are and what they are drinking. Is that not a deaths are unacceptable.” terrible state of affairs? It makes the police’s job much more difficult. Do we not have to get a much stronger That is a very positive response to the publication of message to that section of the community that that is our report. The press release continued: not the right thing to do, and to provide better education “Much more can, and will, be done to turn this around, but the for them? change won’t happen overnight”. 317 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 318

[Mr. Barron] in a few weeks, and whoever comes into government must tackle the long-term damage to health being done by Everybody accepts that. None the less, I was pleased alcohol. The objective is not to stop people drinking, that my hon. Friend went on to say: but to get them to use alcohol in a sensible and proper “New and strengthened campaigns from this month will raise manner, as my generation and many before us were able public awareness further on the link between drinking too much to do. and poor health, and on the harm that alcohol can do to children.” She pointed out that the Government 1.37 pm “have already taken new powers to tackle the worst irresponsible promotions such as ‘drink as much as you like for £5’.” Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): It is a I understand that the Home Office is taking action pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Rother against that. Valley (Mr. Barron). I congratulate the Committee on First-year students at university—I have one in my an interesting and well put together report. Clearly, the family—are offered the chance to go into a nightclub key area that the Committee examined was pricing, and and drink as much alcohol as they like for the price of that is certainly one of the elements that should be the £10 admission fee. It is extraordinary that alcohol is tackled, as the right hon. Gentleman stressed. so easy to access. When I was young, I lived in a We should start by acknowledging that there is a working-class culture where young men went out drinking problem with people abusing alcohol. The focus should beer, even before they were 18. We would do that one or be on problem drinking. There are various definitions, two nights a week. Although I was working, I could not some of which are helpful. We can have a debate about afford to go out more than that. how many units people should drink per week or over a The idea that young people now can go out and, for year, but by problem drinking, I mean drinking that £10, drink as much alcohol as they want—spirits or leads to inappropriate, irresponsible behaviour, antisocial beer, as I understand it—is frightening. Young people behaviour and crime, or drinking that damages health. do not know everything, although they think they do The Select Committee report focuses, of course, on from the age of about 16 onwards. The damage that damage to health and what action the Government—any such promotions may be doing to them, which may not Government—can take to try to ameliorate that. be found out for years, is frightening. I am pleased to We should also acknowledge that the problem is not say that since our report, the Government are taking alcohol. I say to the Chair and the members of the action, and I know that they were working on the Select Committee—I suspect they would agree with me, matter before. although this is may not be sufficiently clearly stated in the report—that the problem is not even cheap alcohol. Sandra Gidley (Romsey) (LD): The Committee took The problem is people abusing alcohol and drinking in evidence showing that in Southampton Tuesday is the an inappropriate way that leads to the kind of problems night for students to go out drinking because that is the that we have heard about. That is cultural, and it is all night they can drink as much as they like for £10. Will very well saying that drinking patterns have changed, the right hon. Gentleman also condemn the drinking and all very well quoting the figures for how many clubs such as Carnage, which target new students and people are drinking more, but if we look at those organise pub crawls of all the pubs in town for a fee? patterns, we find that the situation is not as simple as That causes great distress to many local residents. the figures suggest. As my colleague and chair of the all-party beer group, the hon. Member for Selby Mr. Barron: Indeed. I understand that some of those (Mr. Grogan), knows, beer consumption is declining, so promotions are coming to an end, and quite right too, the issue is that of our culture shifting, not just that all in my view. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister will Britons are drinking more. A group of people are tell us more when she responds to the debate. We as a drinking more than they should, and we must focus on society must get back to a more balanced approach to them. alcohol. Accessibility and cost are two aspects that must be tackled. I agree fundamentally with the main conclusion of The Government also said in response to the Committee’s the Committee’s report, which is that we should introduce report: a minimum price for alcohol. “We will continue to look at how we can tackle the problems caused by cheap alcohol. We will consider this within a framework Pete Wishart: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? which respects the rights of responsible consumers whilst making a real difference to the types of excessive drinking that damage Greg Mulholland: Of course, and I was expecting to individuals and families and are a cost to our society.” do so. I agree entirely. The aim is not to punish the average drinker in any way—I rarely see average drinkers sitting Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman is right to expect round with bottles of white cider. The aim is to attack me to intervene at this point. If he agrees with minimum binge drinking, and minimum pricing is one method. pricing, will he please get on the phone to his Liberal The study that was done in Sheffield was carried out in colleagues up in Scotland and tell them to support the the cultures that I have lived in all my life, certainly since Scottish Government, who are trying to get that very the age of 8 in south Yorkshire. It concluded that measure through in the teeth of Liberal opposition? It minimum pricing would work in that situation to cut is not just opposition from individual Members of the binge drinking. Scottish Parliament, but whipped Liberal opposition, I know that my hon. Friend will not be able to give us so will he get on the phone and convince them that they a definite answer about pricing structure, especially at are wrong and we are right? Let us make sure that we this time in the political diary. We have a general election have minimum pricing in Scotland. 319 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 320

Greg Mulholland: What a very odd request from a Greg Mulholland: We do, indeed, but I am not quite member of the Scottish National party—to insist that I, sure what point the right hon. Gentleman is trying to a proud Englishman, get on the phone to tell my make. My point simply is that we should not say, Scottish colleagues what to do. I shall treat that very “50 per cent. or 40 per cent. sounds right.” We need to odd logic with the contempt that it deserves. My Scottish look at the holistic impact of the measure. The principle colleagues in the Scottish Parliament deal with their is absolutely right, but we have not reached the stage own affairs and the hon. Gentleman would certainly where we know what the price should be, and it is agree with that. Under the circumstances, he would be important that we do not simply pick a figure out of appalled if I did otherwise. the air. The Liberal Democrat parliamentary party very much Dr. Howard Stoate (Dartford) (Lab): Surely the hon. supports a minimum price for alcohol. The Committee Gentleman accepts that Parliament decides—in fact, Chairman has outlined some of these issues, but I shall the Chancellor decides—on alcohol duty, so it is really give a stark example using figures that date back to not much of a leap to say that the House should take a May 2008. At that time, the average cost of a draught strong view on minimum pricing. Does he agree that pint of lager in a pub was £2.75, which equates to minimum pricing cannot possibly affect the pub or £4.95 a litre. At the same time, however, supermarkets restaurant trade? No pubs in the country will sell alcohol were selling lager with a strength of more than 4 per for 50p per unit other than at those very strange times cent. for as little as £1.20 per litre, and weaker lager for of binge drinking. He would be very lucky to find in his as little as 52p per litre. Tesco was selling a 70cl bottle of constituency a pub that would sell him beer at 50p a “Value” vodka for £6.54. Of that price, £5.98 is taken in unit, so the measure would affect not the pub or restaurant duty, and a further £1.14 is taken in VAT, totalling trade but those people who consume vast quantities of £7.12—more than the retail price. It is a scandal that very cheap alcohol that they can obtain from wholesalers alcohol is sold in an uncontrolled environment. It is or some supermarkets. easy for people to put such products in with their weekly shop and, potentially, for minors and so on to Greg Mulholland: Once again, the hon. Gentleman access it. That is a real problem, and I absolutely agree proves my point precisely. He is quite right about the that minimum pricing is important. effect on the pub, but unfortunately a 50p minimum However, politicians should not decide that minimum price for alcohol would make it impossible for many of price. The Sheffield study was interesting but certainly our smaller breweries to survive, and that would therefore not conclusive, and we need an independent body, made damage the brewing trade. We have to look at all those up of economists and industry and health specialists, to issues together. That is the sensible way to do it, rather recommend not only a minimum price but how it should than plucking a figure out of the air. work, so that we tackle problem drinking without having any perverse impacts. The right hon. Gentleman talked Kelvin Hopkins: We have already heard that beer about not having a detrimental impact on moderate consumption is falling, so breweries are suffering because drinkers, who would have to pay a little more for their people are drinking cheaper, stronger alcohol that is not bottle of wine or their pints of beer, and that may be beer. If the price of those other drinks were raised, true, but we have to consider other impacts. surely that would help the breweries and pubs. Greg Mulholland: Again, that proves my argument. Kelvin Hopkins: I am slightly concerned about the Hon. Members think that through minimum pricing hon. Gentleman’s suggestion that politicians should not they have the solution to binge drinking, and I agree decide those matters. We certainly receive recommendations, with the measure, but let me make it absolutely clear and the chief medical officer recommended a price of that there is no silver bullet. It is rather naive to suggest 50p per unit, which would be a good start, but in the otherwise. If there were a silver bullet, we would all end this House will have to decide the price and ensure accept it and pursue it. We would all have to deal with that it is enforced. impacts of a minimum price, however, and they have not yet been properly assessed. Greg Mulholland: That is precisely why neither On the Committee’s secondary conclusion that we politicians nor the chief medical officer should say that should therefore increase duty even more, I absolutely they know the answer to the problem, or recommend a agree that we should look at duty levels. Industrial cider level. We have heard about some of the effects of has been mentioned, and there is a clear discrepancy 50p per unit, but not about its effects on the consumption between that and beer; and the rather favourable treatment of lower strength drinks or on pubs. There could be a that spirits have received over the past few years has perverse incentive, and we need to investigate the matter also rightly been mentioned. Beer duty, which has been holistically. increased and used as just a way of making money, has no relevance whatever to the debate about how to deal Mr. Barron: I am very pleased that the hon. Gentleman with problem drinking, but the Liberal Democrats reject agrees with the Committee about introducing a minimum increasing prices as a whole. price per unit. He suggests what type of people should It is interesting to look at all the statistics, but some advise the Government, and he seems to be suggesting commentators lack common sense and an understanding that politicians should not take a position on price. of psychology. The reality is simple. Let us imagine that Does he not think, however, that we have to look someone is going out to binge drink 10 alcoholic drinks, beyond the advice that the Government take from different which is far more than they should. We could slap on an institutions? We have an increase in binge drinking and extra duty that increased the price by 10p per drink, and in alcohol-related deaths, and we have to look at new that would be a large increase, but is anyone seriously ways of solving that problem. suggesting that it would stop someone drinking that 321 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 322

[Greg Mulholland] report, which looked into the culture of drinking in England and made firm recommendations about how amount? All we are talking about is it costing an extra some binge drinking can be stopped. What aspects of £1—the equivalent of a bag of chips—to drink exactly that report does he disagree with? the same amount. Is that really going to have the effect on behaviour some people suggest it would? I am afraid Greg Mulholland: I do not know where the right hon. that it will not. It is just not realistic, and I repeat that Gentleman gets that idea from, because I have not said there is no silver bullet. Pricing must be looked at, but it for a moment that I disagree with the Sheffield university is not the silver-bullet solution that some people suggest. report; it is very interesting, and I agree with many of its conclusions. My only comment in that regard has been Sandra Gidley: I hate to disagree with my hon. Friend, that we are not at the stage of saying that we should but a lot of the evidence that the Committee took necessarily adopt a minimum price of 40p per unit. It is showed that in such a situation people, particularly an excellent report, which firmly focuses on that issue, young people, do not buy alcohol at the higher price. as well as on price differentials in the off trade. I would Instead, they buy cheap alcohol from supermarkets, have welcomed the Select Committee’s going into that a pre-load and then go out and buy one or two expensive little more, but of course it was dealing with the issue drinks. A lot of research has shown that most students specifically from a health perspective. go out with about a tenner in their pocket, so price is a A cross-departmental approach is needed. There is a factor. It is not the only one, but it is a critical factor in huge criminal justice side to this issue, which has to tackling the problem. involve tackling problems with disorder as well as the Greg Mulholland: I do not think that my hon. Friend health problems that have been recognised. I am pleased is disagreeing with me. Perhaps she does not like my that the right hon. Gentleman is keen to point out that suggesting that her Committee has not solved this problem; cultural issues are important and that the pub, as a it might have thought that it had. I have made it sociable, controlled drinking environment, is part of the absolutely clear that one of the problems is the price solution. differential between the on trade and the off trade and Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman is talking the irresponsible supermarket selling of alcohol at about criminal justice solutions. During the passage of unreasonably low prices, even below cost prices. the Licensing Act 2003, I was amazed, as a member of Nevertheless, there will still be people who go to bars the Public Bill Committee that considered it, that there and clubs and are unaffected by that. Not to recognise were so few prosecutions of landlords selling alcohol to that shows a lack of realism and a lack of understanding intoxicated people. That has been against the law for a of human psychology. These things need to be looked at long time. Enforcing that law—I see no evidence that in a more holistic way. the situation is improving—would deal with some of It is important to focus on moving towards a minimum the disorder that we see on our high streets. Does he price—setting that level to stop irresponsible off-trade recognise and agree with that? pricing to ensure that people are not able to access it—but that alone will not deal with the problem entirely. Greg Mulholland: The hon. Gentleman raises an We have to acknowledge the culture. Although the important point. As he says, there are adequate powers Select Committee’s report rightly touched on the issue to deal with some of the abuses of selling alcohol and of pubs being an important place for sociable, controlled they are not currently used. That also applies to selling drinking, I am afraid that we all, as a nation, have to alcohol to minors. The existing system is there, and we accept that a cultural change must also be considered. do not need more laws and regulations: we just need to We are concerned not only about the changes that we use the ones that we have. I agree with him from that have seen with regard to people drinking more at home, perspective. but about people buying alcohol from the off trade, There is still an insufficient focus on education about including supermarkets, and then drinking it in the alcohol. If we are to have a culture in which people are park or on the street. brought up to think that alcohol is to be respected, we There has been a cultural change in the on trade, too. will need more education, including in schools. Some The sector of the on trade that is particularly suffering very positive campaigns have been run over the past is the traditional community pub that has a particular 18 months, and that has been a good use of Department role not only in being somewhere for people in the area of Health money to get the message across about binge to meet but in being a controlled sociable atmosphere drinking. However, there is a problem in simply talking where people of all ages will go. It is very regrettable about alcohol as a drug and about the dangers of how some sections of the on-trade industry—I use that alcohol. Other societies and nations have a different word advisedly, because we are talking about some very attitude towards alcohol. They do not just say, “This is large companies—have deliberately done away with a dangerous thing and you must make sure that you community pubs and moved to vertical drinking spaces. don’t abuse it”; they bring up their children to understand They have deliberately pushed people away from a and respect it. convivial, sociable culture where they sit down to one in which they are crammed in and there is loud music. It is Sandra Gidley: I take my hon. Friend’s point about not about chatting but about drinking and encouraging education in schools; unfortunately, many young people people to drink more. That change must be acknowledged, think that they are invincible and tend to ignore what and it will not be dealt with by pricing alone. they are told. Does he support the use of alcohol-related arrest referral schemes, which provide information and Mr. Barron: The reason for vertical drinking counselling about the effects of alcohol to people who establishments is to increase profits. The hon. Gentleman have been brought to the attention of the criminal said that he did not agree with the Sheffield university justice system as a result of an alcohol-related disorder? 323 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 324

Those schemes are being evaluated, but when they have and the selling and marketing of it in those days. There been tried in the USA, they have been very effective in are many lessons to learn. We do not need a new reducing repeat drink offences. culture; we need a return to a responsible, sociable pub-related culture; and we need to focus on the individuals, Greg Mulholland: I thank my hon. Friend; I indeed retailers and companies that continue to abuse their support that approach. From a health point of view, I position and that make it very difficult for responsible also think that people who have been admitted to drinkers to enjoy alcohol by fuelling the problem drinking accident and emergency with alcohol conditions should that damages our neighbourhoods and towns and people’s be put on to an alcohol rehabilitation course. That health. would do more to challenge problem drinking than some of the measures that have been proposed. 2.2 pm Schools have a role and a responsibility to provide education about alcohol, as do parents, although it is Dr. Howard Stoate (Dartford) (Lab): It is very important hard to educate the parents themselves. We have to that we are having this debate, and I pay tribute to my bring up young people to respect alcohol. How many right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley 16-year-olds understand how beer is brewed or how (Mr. Barron), who chaired the Health Committee admirably wine is produced? Why, in this country, do we continue and enabled it to make an in-depth study of the whole to talk about alcohol merely as a drug? Why do we not issue of alcohol. We obtained some extremely valuable do more to point out that alcohol, if respected and papers in evidence, which the Committee and our drunk responsibly, is something to be enjoyed? There researchers found useful in producing what I believe is a are good alcoholic drinks and bad alcoholic drinks, but helpful report. why do we never say that? We always bracket them It is important that we distinguish between ordinary together, as under the current duty regime, which is drinking, which nearly all of us do, and the problem rather perverse given its treatment of cider. drinking of a minority, although a significant minority, We have to accept our culture and who we are, but we of people in this country. Alcohol has always played an often fail to do that in these debates. The Committee important role in our society. It has lubricated the was right to point out that the Government’s thinking wheels of politics and business for as long as anyone was entirely naive and misplaced in trying to move can remember and helped million of Britons to cement suddenly to a continental café culture. We do not need a friendships and relationships. Even the British Medical continental café culture, but a culture that respects Association, which is one of the most vehement critics alcohol more. That involves understanding what alcohol of our drinking culture, recognises that. In written is and how it is produced, and accepting that good evidence for our inquiry, it wrote: alcohol, when enjoyed responsibly, is an important part “Alcohol in moderation has some very positive social and of our culture and our heritage. I invite you, Madam personal effects. It is not true that the only safe route for most Deputy Speaker, and any other Members, to come to an people is total abstinence.” event that takes place in my constituency every That is very well put. September—Otley folk festival, when every single pub Although we have always spent a long time as a in the town is thronged with people enjoying locally nation thinking, speaking and writing about alcohol—I produced real ale and folk music. It is very much part of do not think any country has more expressions for our English heritage and culture. Do we see disorder being drunk than we do—we now fetishise alcohol in a and problems? No, we do not, but I am afraid politicians way that was not apparent 50 or even 25 years ago. The are too slow to recognise that alcohol is an important alcohol industry now spends between £600 million and and positive part of our culture and heritage, and that if £800 million a year on drinks marketing and advertising. enjoyed responsibly, it is to be celebrated. It has been phenomenally successful in implanting in It is rather lazy of politicians sometimes to talk about Britain’s collective consciousness the idea that drinking the “the drinks industry”, because that includes every alcohol is synonymous with social, sexual, physical and single alcohol producer, from the huge business to the material success. It has succeeded brilliantly in tapping small microbrewery brewing perhaps for only one pub, into our deepest and most heartfelt aspirations and and all the pubs, bars and clubs. That group does not desires, and suggesting that alcohol can help us meet form an industry, and the idea that everyone in it is them, even if just for a brief, escapist moment on a somehow irresponsible is a lazy assertion. We need to Friday or Saturday night. As a result of those efforts, focus on the companies that do not fulfil their alcohol is now seen by millions of young people as an responsibilities and that have clear profit motive for essential lifestyle prop that can help confer instant wanting people to drink irresponsibly. That applies to glamour and open the door to success and popularity. some companies but not to others, and certainly not to Nor, thanks to the drinks industry, is alcohol many pubs and small breweries. consumption limited to a few specific, well-defined The report is a useful step forward, and I hope it will periods in the week any more. As the British Society of make the Government seriously consider introducing a Gastroenterology and British Association for the Study minimum price. After the election, I should certainly of the Liver pointed out in their written evidence, we like whoever is in Government to take that forward as have contrived in recent years to superimpose the southern part of the solution to problem drinking in this country. European culture of regular heavy drinking to accompany However, we must remember that there is no silver food on our long-standing Anglo-Saxon culture of feast bullet, and we have to accept that there needs to be and binge drinking. We are now, as they put it, cultural change. To some extent we have to go back to “reaping the consequences in terms of liver deaths”. the years that the right hon. Member for Rother Valley In fact, there has been a gradual merging of drinking talked about, when alcohol consumption was lower, but cultures across Europe. Only a few years ago French we also have to think about our approach to alcohol experts were confidently predicting that a binge drinking 325 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 326

[Dr. Howard Stoate] alcohol purchases. In choosing voluntarily to remove its logo from child-size replica Rangers and Celtic shirts culture was unlikely to take root there, as alcohol was two years ago, Carling more or less admitted that the culturally integrated. They said that the French, having association between the clubs and the brand had a been introduced to alcohol at an early age, drank in a direct and positive influence upon young people’s attitudes controlled fashion, if perhaps a little too regularly, and towards the Carling brand. Mark Hunter, the chief that getting visibly and audibly incapacitated was seen executive of Coors, Carling’s parent company, said at as neither cool nor particularly impressive. The French the time: have always taken that attitude. “Coors and the Old Firm clubs have a long track-record in However, although the overall level of alcohol working together to champion responsible drinking. This means consumption in France is declining, as we have heard ensuring that sponsorship is not improperly targeted at people today, “le binge drinking” among young people has under the legal drinking age and using the combination of one of emerged as a real problem and a raft of legislation has the UK’s leading brands and football to promote responsible been proposed to tackle it. In fact, the French have far consumption by adults.” more draconian advertising laws than we do. It is extremely Carling is perfectly content, however, for that same difficult now for the French to advertise alcohol in any group of young people to watch Rangers and Celtic on social context at all. They can merely present the brand, TV or in person at Ibrox or Parkhead, with every and that is all they can do. They cannot associate it with player’s shirt in the whole stadium festooned with the any particular culture or with glamour. Carling logo. That apparently does not constitute “improper The French phenomenon has been described as part targeting” in the eyes of either Carling, the clubs or the of a “globalisation of behaviour” evident in all 27 EU football authorities. If there is logic there, I am afraid I member states, with teenagers increasingly seeking instant cannot spot it. intoxication as an end in itself. However, attitudes can In my view, the Government need to wake up to the change in the other direction as well. The best example way in which the alcohol industry is grooming potential that I can think of is in Germany, where beer consumption young drinkers through music and sport. That flies has declined dramatically in the past decade. It was the directly in the face of the stated intentions of Ofcom, capital of Europe for beer drinking, but it has now lost the Advertising Standards Authority and the Portman its crown to the Czech Republic. Health considerations Group to protect children and young people from have certainly played a part in that decline, but the advertising and marketing. changing image of beer has been the most important thing. Beer drinking is now seen by many young people The only sure way to tackle the problem is removing in Germany as a staid old man’s pursuit and distinctly the alcohol industry’s ability to target young people in uncool. Consequently, the Germans have shifted their that way. Banning alcohol advertising and sponsorship drinking patterns far more towards alcohol such as from events that are attended by children and young spirits. people, or watched by them on TV, is one way to enable young people to develop a healthier relationship with That shows that although we can never change young alcohol. people’s desire to drink and to experiment with alcohol, the image of alcohol is very important in shaping what, When the Committee took evidence, we heard of the when, where and—crucially—how much they drink. change in marketing practices towards viral marketing That is why we need to exert far greater control over and the use of the internet as a means of getting the how alcohol is marketed and advertised in this country. message across. We were assured by witnesses that It is not an altruistic desire to support the sports industry there was protection for young people, because they or music scene that has led Carling, for example, to had to access a privileged site, which was of course sponsor the Football League cup, Rangers and Celtic difficult to do. However, during the inquiry—in front of football clubs and, until recently, the Reading festival the witnesses—I used my internet-enabled phone to and various leading music venues across London. It is get on to the relevant website. I was asked to enter my motivated instead by the company’s self-confessed desire date of birth to ensure that I was over 18, so I entered to the date 30 February 1980 and was allowed entry. I “become the most respected youth brand”. entered a completely fictitious address, which could not possibly have been logical, but the site was happy with In sponsoring music events, for instance, Carling states that. Therefore, those safeguards to protect young that it wishes to “piggyback” on the success of the people clearly do not work. One can enter any date of band— birth, and site will be quite happy to allow access its “the heroes at the venue”— content. and use them as a means of “engaging customers’ We need to ensure that when the industry says it is emotions”. As Professor Gerard Hastings, who advised cleaning up its act, it is doing so and behaving responsibly. our Committee, wrote: I do not attack the industry lightly, and I do not believe “Sponsorship is a way of raising brand awareness, creating the whole of it is to blame, but it clearly needs to get its positive brand attitudes and building emotional connections with house in order if we are to protect young people. The consumers. Its power comes not from direct advertising messages market is changing, as is the way in which things are but through associating the brand with an already engaging event or celebrity, and gaining power and credibility in the process.” advertised, and there is far less control over internet and viral advertising, so it is even more important that firms That is a pertinent point. act responsibly to ensure that young people are not A focus on football and live music is designed to grab exposed to the increasing glamorisation of alcohol, the attention of young male teenagers and increase the thereby leading themselves inevitably to increased health likelihood of their making Carling one of their first risks in future. 327 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 328

2.11 pm councillor, I have found that the vast bulk of it is responsible. The industry appreciates that it must be Mr. Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I was listening to a responsible—the House ought to acknowledge the Portman programme on Radio 4 earlier in the week about Group and other initiatives that have been funded to marmalade. It was said that marmalade was invented promote responsible drinking. by the Scots in the 1740s to go on toast. Before that, they used to drink alcohol, in the form of ale, for breakfast, so imbibing ale in large quantities and at odd Kelvin Hopkins: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says times of day is well known in British history. If one about the Portman Group, but is that not simply a way could go back to Hogarth’s times, or the industrial of making the drinks industry more respectable, so as to revolution, one would see that high alcohol consumption persuade the Government not to legislate? was always a factor. That was why there were always temperance movements, and strong feelings and debates Mr. Syms: Sometimes the most powerful message on as society developed. responsible drinking is sent by the industry itself. Following the changes in the licensing laws, police officers from The Chairman of the Select Committee on Health, Poole police station who go around the pubs and clubs the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron), say that there has been a tie-up between them, the mentioned the difference in duty between 1947 and drinks industry and many publicans. The drinks industry today. To some extent, alcohol consumption has increased has helped to finance local policing and the training of because of affluence—people simply have more disposable landlords, which is important. As we have heard in this income and more choices. It is also worth noting that debate, part of the problem is selling via supermarkets. people live rather longer than they did in 1947. One Most legitimate licensees act in a responsible manner, must take into account a range of factors concerning but they need training, support and investment from how people live today. the drinks industry. We should not leave this subject Clearly, there is a hard core of people who drink without saying how successful the industry has been. multiples of what they should. That is the problem of We must find a way to educate people about what alcohol abuse. Sometimes they are older people, but they drink and how much they take in. I have always felt they are not necessarily poor, and we also seem to have that showing units of alcohol on glasses or products is a problem with young people in some of our city important in that way. In recent years, many wine bars centres. One need only go through the range of Sky have gone for larger glass sizes, and people do not channels on television and find a programme about city always know what they are drinking. Another trend is centre policing to see the problems and costs of alcohol that wine has become much stronger. The wine that on Friday and Saturday nights. people drank 20 years ago was a fraction of the strength I believe that pricing is less of a factor than other of the wine we drink today. hon. Members believe. It is a factor, especially when people buy from supermarkets, but it is also a question Greg Mulholland: As the hon. Gentleman probably of supply. If we want to stop children getting alcohol, knows, there has been good news on that. Following my we must get alcohol out of the home. Almost any home, campaign to reintroduce 125 ml glasses, which was including mine, will have gin, whisky and various other supported by several hon. Members in the Chamber, things sitting in a sideboard somewhere, which will the Government have announced that it will be in the probably not be locked. mandatory code. Drinkers will therefore once again Some years ago, I was taken out one evening in a have the choice of having smaller as well as medium and Dorset police van. The police were picking up large glasses—and, of course, there will be standard schoolchildren aged 13 or 14, almost all of whom had size. alcohol, almost all of which came from the parental home. The police would take the children home and Mr. Syms: Measurement is vital, and perhaps we show the parents, most of whom were unaware that ought to introduce some means of measuring alcohol in their kids had alcohol and that that alcohol was missing pubs and clubs. For example, a person could blow into a from their drinks cabinet. Therefore, the first thing we device that could tell them how much they had drunk. must focus on is parenting. How do we keep an eye on We must find a way to educate youngsters about the what children get up to because of peer pressure as they harm they are doing, which includes the antisocial get older? Price would not affect that, because a youngster behaviour that quite often follows in many of our inner could easily take a bottle of gin from home. That is an cities. important factor. Although I broadly sign up to the report, I have one Another factor is that we need role models to persuade or two reservations on what it says about advertising. It youngsters to act more responsibly. Sometimes, the is easy to attack the advertising industry in reports, but footballers whom people aspire to be like these days are after all, it simply gives consumers information, on the not always the best role models for youngsters. basis of which they make choices. Advertising can play The debate relates to the Health Committee’s report an important role in getting messages about harm across on alcohol. It ought to be said that the drinks industry to people. We should make friends with the advertising is very important. There was an exchange earlier in the industry, because if we could galvanise it into starting debate about Scotland: the scotch industry is important to make points about harm, it would be a useful tool in in areas of our country where alternative jobs might not educating people. be so easy to get, and it is a major exporter that creates Some of the advertisers have raised concerns about wealth for our country; and the brewing industry involves the Committee’s suggestions. For instance, ITV and more than 400,000 jobs. In my dealings with the industry Channel 4 think that the changes could cost them up to as a Member of Parliament, and before that as a £60 million in revenue. There will also be an impact on 329 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 330

[Mr. Syms] amounts of alcohol. I hope that we find the right solutions, but as I have said, I think that the industry sporting events. We have to be much more targeted in is—broadly speaking—doing a good job. However, it our approach to this problem. We have to include can always do better, and we must also look to the high parents and parenting, and we have to ensure that cost in terms of health of some of the abuses that occur people know the number of units they consume and the today. It will be interesting to see what happens. I hope long-term harm that can ensue. that we make progress so that people can enjoy a responsible drink, but we crack down on the hard core Dr. Stoate: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says and redouble our efforts, especially among students and about voluntary advertising codes, but the Committee other young people, among whom there is a real problem. heard lots of evidence that that was not working. We There is no magic bullet, but if we do not deal with that have been there before with the tobacco industry, which problem we will be dealing with its consequences for claimed that it could behave, advertise and promote many generations to come. responsibly—but that simply did not work. It flew in the face of common sense to think that it would, 2.25 pm because what it was really interested in was making profits. In evidence submitted to the Committee, we saw Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): It is obvious campaign after campaign in which producers were not that Britain has a serious and growing alcohol problem, sticking to the spirit, let alone the letter, of the rules, and successive Governments have failed to address it. including prohibitions on promoting to under-25s and What has been done so far is mere pussyfooting, and I not associating alcohol with glamour or success. This hope that they start to take the issue seriously before we fond belief that the industry can promote itself does not end up in the same situation as Russia, where the bear much examination. population is declining, largely as a result of alcohol consumption. The Russian Government have finally Mr. Syms: Well, I sometimes think that that approach bitten the bullet and started to raise the price of vodka. is better than too much of a centralised approach. If we We do not want to get to that stage before taking drive advertising off the airwaves it will go on to the serious action. internet, which is less controlled. If we have a proper We have heard some warm words about the drinks code for producers to follow—and the vast majority industry, but the malign influence of that industry on do—even if it is not perfect, it is a better approach than Governments has deterred them from taking the problem clamping down on people, which can lead to creative seriously and from taking proper action. I hope that the methods of advertising that are less controlled. The report, which I greatly welcome and strongly support, worst examples we saw were from the internet, rather will help to press the Government to do the right thing. than the press or television. We have to be careful with It is time that we said to the drinks industry, “We that approach. understand your position—you make drink to make Mr. Barron: I did not talk about advertising in my profit. Our job is to protect the population and their speech, but I received an email today related to that health.” issue. It states: For some five years when I first entered the House, I “The Committee expressed concerns about “gaps”in the regulation was the chair of the all-party group on alcohol misuse. I of digital marketing during your investigations. I wanted to let have also raised several questions about alcohol issues. you know that this week the Advertising Association has finalised We waited for a long time before the Government a set of proposals to shut this regulatory loophole, extending the brought forward their alcohol strategy, and in the end it Advertising Standards Authority’s remit.” was not the most wonderful document and was not So things are happening in that area because of the terribly effective. In the last Parliament, I also tabled an report. early-day motion that drew attention to the dramatic fall in the real price of alcoholic drinks as a proportion Mr. Syms: I am grateful to the Chairman for that of disposable income—something on which the Chairman point. The internet is where the worst examples can be of the Committee focused. I welcome what he said, and found, and I hope that progress will be made in that I thought that my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford area. (Dr. Stoate) also made an excellent contribution. We The vast majority of my constituents enjoy a responsible need action now. drink. We have seen a change in recent years, much of it Other countries have different regimes. I was recently because people do not drink and drive these days. As a in Washington with the Select Committee, and it was result, they tend to purchase more alcohol in supermarkets Halloween, which is a great celebration in the US. and imbibe it at home, where it is very easy to open Thousands of people dress up in fancy dress and go out another bottle. Drinking in the home is more common, into the streets. We were in Georgetown with thousands which often means drinking in front of children. Just as of young people in the streets and none of them were there are concerns that the smoking ban means that drunk. Indeed, they were all well behaved. That was people smoke more at home in the presence of their because the Americans have a rigidly enforced minimum children, there are concerns that people are drinking age for the consumption of alcohol of 21. Some of our more at home. staff in their 20s and even early 30s were challenged— The report is a useful contribution to the debate on alcohol and its consequences, and I hope that it will Dr. Stoate: When I was last in Washington on a inform public policy. It may also get into the newspapers Select Committee inquiry, I was refused alcohol on the and draw to the attention of youngsters, who think that grounds that I could not prove that I was over 21 as I they will live for ever, the fact that they will face real did not have my passport with me. I was not sure problems if they abuse themselves by drinking excessive whether to feel flattered or insulted. 331 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 332

Kelvin Hopkins: My hon. Friend is obviously very much lower level of damage of which we are not quite youthful looking. No one challenged me, I have to say, aware yet. We do not know how common it is. Who but other staff were challenged, and the age limit was knows? All the problems of behavioural disorders among rigidly enforced. Indeed, not so long ago, two British young children in schools, such as attention deficit sisters were on holiday in Florida, one over 21 and one hyperactivity disorder, might be alcohol associated. Some under. Their holiday flat was entered by the local police research is leading in that direction. It certainly affects who found them both drinking. The older sister was IQ, academic ability and the ability to concentrate—all sent to prison for corrupting a minor—that is how things needed in school—and behavioural disorders seriously it is taken. I am not suggesting that we should might be a symptom as well. be so draconian, but there are countries that take the issue a bit more seriously than we do. We have a long Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman waytogo. is making a lot of sense. Does he agree that the standardised labelling for alcoholic products is key, because it empowers Anne Milton (Guildford) (Con): I know a little bit people, including pregnant women? It gives them the about Canada, which has quite vicious laws on alcohol. facts so that they can take personal responsibility and Instead, it has a significant problem with cannabis make the right decisions. misuse. Kelvin Hopkins: I cannot comment on that as I know Kelvin Hopkins: The hon. Gentleman is right, and I nothing about cannabis, never having used it. I know will come to that point soon. that others have differing views on cannabis, but that is This week, the Herald Scotland reported on research for another debate. conducted by Dr. Jonathan Sher, director of research, In Sweden, they have had serious problems with policy and programmes for the Children in Scotland alcohol. They had typical northern European binge study. According to the Herald Scotland, the drinking—people would not drink for a fortnight but “study warns that Foetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) and the less then get unconscious on two bottles of schnapps. At obvious Foetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder (FASD)”— one time, everyone had a little black book and had to what I was hinting at before— record the amount of drink bought—like a rationing “are entirely avoidable and completely incurable.” book. That was abolished in the late 1950s, but they still If it is a self-regarding action—for instance, if a middle-aged have the systembolagets—the state-run off-licences that man decides to drink himself to death—it is very sad, control the sale of drink. In Norway, which the Committee but he does it to himself. If, in doing so, however, a child also visited, I was surprised to find that in the square by is damaged for life, the action is against someone else as the Parliament building a pint of beer cost £5, so they well. It is, no doubt, deeply worrying for many mothers. have raised their prices. Northern Europe has long had Is it not sensible that we warn people from now on that, a drink problem—it may be to do with the long winters. if they drink during pregnancy, they could and, if they Mr. Syms: Did the price put the hon. Gentleman off? drink excessively, definitely will, damage their children for life? There is much detail in the report, into which I Kelvin Hopkins: I certainly thought about having do not need to go now, but the sheer numbers in more than one, but by nature I am a person of moderation, Scotland suggest that about 10,000 children in Britain although I must say that I am an imbiber of alcohol have visible FAS problems. On foetal alcohol spectrum myself—I enjoy good wine. The hon. Gentleman has disorder, we are talking about hundreds of thousands talked about people stealing drinks from their parents, and, who knows, possibly even more. This a very serious but if my son or daughter start stealing my good problem, so we need to persuade young women not to Burgundy, I would be very upset—but that is another drink when they are pregnant, but unfortunately the story. two are associated, because lots of young women do The UK is now awash with cheap alcohol, which drink to excess, and perhaps getting pregnant when causes appalling damage to lives: it causes death and young and drinking are related—they get pregnant violence in hospitals and homes. Domestic violence is because they have been drunk and taken advantage of always, it seems to me, associated with alcohol, as too, by men. time and again, is violence. If we can reduce the excessive Teenage pregnancy in Britain is six times higher than consumption of cheap alcohol, of which there are oceans, in Holland. In many ways, Holland and Britain are we can solve many other problems as well. My particular similar countries—in terms of culture and the ethnic concern, however, is health—we are discussing a Health mix—but we have six times more teenage pregnancies Committee report—and especially foetal alcohol syndrome, than Holland. Is that associated, possibly, with teenage which is a subject that I have raised in the House before, drinking? I suspect that a lot of it is. However, not only and which has been raised in another place by the noble does that cause a problem in terms of getting pregnant Lord Mitchell, who made a fine speech on 18 October in the first place, but those young women continue 2004, and subsequently introduced a Bill to try to drinking and then damage their babies before they are persuade the Government to put labelling on alcohol born. That is deeply worrying and something that I about alcohol damage to foetuses. have been concerned about for a long time. The problem first became evident in South Africa, It is time to take serious action, and I urge my hon. where many women working on wine estates were paid, Friend the Minister to take my suggestions back to her in part, in alcohol. Vast numbers of children suffered colleagues in Government and to start to think seriously serious foetal damage: it changes the shape of the face about action. My minimum suggestion is for a seven-point and causes physical as well as psychological and mental plan—it could be eight, nine, 10 or 12 points. The first is damage. In extreme cases, it can be obvious, but of for warning labels on all alcoholic drinks stating that if course there is a penumbra—a sliding scale—and a a pregnant woman drinks, she might damage or, if she 333 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 334

[Kelvin Hopkins] himself some good, and be better for the people of Shipley, if he represented their needs as opposed to his drinks to excess, will damage her baby for life. That prejudices. should be on walls in pubs and on all alcoholic drinks. We should have public information on television, radio Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. Can we and other media about that. Public information should keep some order in this debate and show some be displayed wherever appropriate to ensure that all responsibility? I understand the points that hon. Members women know that, if they drink when pregnant, they are making, but none the less let us keep it at a calm are likely to damage their baby. level.

Sandra Gidley: In France, it is now compulsory to Kelvin Hopkins: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. indicate on pack labelling the shape of a pregnant I like to think that I am behaving in an orderly fashion, woman with a cross through it to get the message across but I cannot speak for other colleagues. literally at the point of drink. Presumably, the hon. There is an argument even for raising the minimum Gentleman would support something along those lines. drinking age. In America, it is 21, but it is much lower in Britain. That is something that we should consider, and Kelvin Hopkins: Absolutely.The Americans use wording in time we may do so—but not at the moment. that I have mentioned before to the hon. Lady—so I I would also restore the former limits on licensing will not go into the details now—and I think that Lord hours. I was unhappy about the legislation that our Mitchell, in a debate in another place, referred to the Government put through. I raised the matter with the American labelling too. I cannot put my hand on it at then Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, the moment, but they use specific wording that can be my right hon. Friend the Member for Dulwich and seen very clearly. However, a picture of a pregnant West Norwood (Tessa Jowell), and met her twice to say woman with a cross through it is one way of drawing that I was concerned. Eventually I voted with the the problem to people’s attention. Most women either Government, on the grounds that they were going to are not aware of it or tend to pretend that it does not examine the evidence, see whether the change was a affect them because it is too inconvenient. That is good idea and consider whether or not to restrict opening deeply worrying, and we care more, I hope, about hours again. I suggest that those former licensing hours children than anything else. I am sure that that is true of should indeed be restored. most people. There is a vast ocean of cheap alcohol coming through The minimum price argument is overwhelming. The our ports every year. The white van brigade is bringing chief medical officer said that it should be a minimum in alcohol and selling it cheaply to friends and neighbours. of 50p per unit of alcohol. I would be happy with that. We should restore the former limits on alcohol imports The great majority of moderate drinkers would not be that we used to have and rigidly enforce them. People affected at all and it would help the pub trade because could still bring in plenty: we are talking about the people would not get tanked up on cheap alcohol before ability to bring in 90 bottles of wine for personal going to the pub—they would be drinking in the pubs consumption. That was the kind of level that we had. instead. It would also save a valuable cultural feature of Some people might say, “Well, it would upset the European our society—the great pub—which is suffering greatly Union,” but I am not terribly worried about upsetting at the moment from cheap alcohol being drunk elsewhere. the European Union if it means protecting the health We should make all cheap alcohol sales techniques, and lives of our citizens. If the same people said, “I’m such as happy hours, illegal, and enforce that rigidly. sorry, but it’s all about the free market. You’ve got to allow cheap alcohol to come in,” I would say, “Well, Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Why does the hon. tough. We’re not going to.” We could have a derogation Gentleman insist that the vast majority of my constituents, from the legislation or whatever we needed. who are perfectly moderate, decent drinkers who do not abuse alcohol whatsoever, should pay more for their Those are some of the things that we ought to do. I alcohol from the supermarket in order to tackle a urge my hon. Friend the Minister to take those suggestions problem of youth drinking? Surely even he is not naive seriously. We need urgent action if we are to prevent enough to believe that upping the price of a bottle of another generation of children from suffering from the wine by 50p will eliminate youth drinking at a stroke. effects of the alcohol consumed by their mothers, and often innocently consumed by them without realising Kelvin Hopkins: Sometimes politicians have to take a the damage that they are doing. Thousands of young responsible stand and argue the case. If anybody says to people in our society have already been damaged by me, “It is my right to buy alcohol that is cheaper than a alcohol, and there are possibly millions who, having bottle of water in my supermarket. How dare you suffered marginal effects from the alcohol consumed by suggest I should have that right taken away?”, I would their mothers during pregnancy, are performing less say that we are damaging children, people and our well at school and so on. The problem is so serious that society by having cheap alcohol. We have to say that to the Government should act now in all the ways that I people and be bold about it. have suggested.

Mr. Barron: Does my hon. Friend think that the 2.41 pm unreconstructed Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) Dr. Richard Taylor (Wyre Forest) (Ind): It is a pleasure would have done better to come in here at 1 o’clock to follow the hon. Member for Luton, North (Kelvin when this debate started, rather than coming in here Hopkins), because nobody could ever accuse him of and throwing these lines about in Parliament as he has pussyfooting around. I strongly support his demands been doing since he was elected here? It would do for urgent action. 335 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 336

Several hon. Members, including the right hon. Member back, preventing it from going back into the stomach. for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron), the Chairman of the There was also a big balloon in the stomach that the Health Committee, have invoked history. I will go a bit doctor blew up to press the varices and try to stop the further back. In “A History of the Norman Kings”, bleeding. There are better ways of doing that now, but written just after 1066 and all that, William of Malmesbury cirrhosis of the liver is still an horrendous illness. said: I shall not go into the costs to the NHS or the effects “The English…were accustomed to eat until they became on families, because those have been mentioned, but surfeited, and to drink till they were sick. These latter qualities what can be done? Education is certainly important, they imparted to their conquerors.” but it has been tried for a long time and it has failed. We We are therefore talking about an age-old problem—one were told about a project in St. Neots involving a that is as old as the hills. community alcohol partnership, which introduced a The hon. Member for Dartford (Dr. Stoate) did not system of stopping and searching teenage under-age do this, but my job in these debates is to terrify people. drinkers. The results included a 42 per cent. decrease in The only occasion on which I made somebody change antisocial behaviour in less than a year, a 94 per cent. their mind in this House was in the debate on smoking decrease in under-age people found in possession of in public places. An inveterate smoker from the other alcohol and a 92 per cent. decrease in alcohol-related side of the House came up to me afterwards and said, litter at key hot spots. That was relatively simple and “You’ve scared me stiff. I’m giving up this moment.” highly effective. Whether I shall be able to change anybody’s mind, and Quite a lot has been said about limiting advertising. in particular the Minister’s, I do not know, but I shall We made several important recommendations in the certainly have a good go. report that I do not think have been mentioned. First, The hon. Member for Luton, North pointed out the on early detection and intervention, we suggested that problems in pregnancy, which are absolutely disastrous. any doctor or nurse who has an interaction with a If women drink heavily at the end of pregnancy, their patient should be alive to the possibility that they are on babies can be born addicted to alcohol and will have to the way to alcohol dependency. If that can be detected go through the withdrawal process. That is absolutely early, we can do something about preventing it. We also horrendous. Alcohol in excess is a drug of addiction. It said, in recommendation 16: is a poison in excess, leading to comas and things that, in the past, have led to deaths in police stations—the “The solution is to link alcohol interventions in primary and secondary care with improved treatment services for patients low blood sugar that is not recognised, so that people developing alcohol dependency.” die of hypoglycaemia. People vomit and then aspirate their vomit. Alcohol is not a stimulant; it is a narcotic. From that we recommended a target. I know that lots of However, it is a very poor narcotic, because it works as people are not that in favour of targets, but the target a diuretic, which obviously means that people cannot that we recommended was extremely sensible: sleep because they have to get up to spend a large “Targets for reducing alcohol related admissions should be number of pennies. Alcohol disturbs the sleep pattern mandatory.” and worsens sleep disorders. The British National That is so obvious. Formulary lists 36 drugs or groups of drugs with which alcohol interacts. It is therefore a dangerous substance Last week I had the great pleasure of judging a in excess. competition in the House in which five groups of A-level However, I am with everybody else: not consumed in students, from five different schools and sixth-form excess, alcohol can bring a great amount of pleasure, colleges, each presented a party manifesto, with a logo and I would never miss out on the House of Commons and a motto. I gave the prize to students from King’s claret, for example, or several of the other potions that high school in Warwick. One of the suggestions in the we can have here. health part of their manifesto said: Acute binges increase the risk of death, and of injury “We will introduce a three-strike policy for injuries caused as a and criminal charges, either of which can ruin a young result of alcohol, so that repeated attendances at A and E are paid for by the patient. Referrals to compulsory rehabilitation programmes person’s life. We heard from ambulance drivers about are also made.” what can happen after bank holiday evenings, and on Halloween or similar occasions. Not only do they have That is an example of young people recognising the to ferry drunk people to hospital, but if those drunks tremendous risks to their peers and making some very vomit in the ambulance or vomit over them, they have sensible suggestions. I am even thinking of putting to clean out the ambulance—it is out of service for them into my manifesto for the election that is coming ages—and change their uniforms. The effects of binge fairly soon. drinking are horrendous. Another group has also underlined the importance of Chronic excessive consumption of alcohol can cause a minimum age for drinking. However, I believe that cirrhosis of the liver. Although I was never a liver pricing is the real weapon, as many hon. Members have specialist, in my day one had to do a little bit of said. We have not yet decided whether measures should everything, and the most distressing deaths were those take the form of tax increases, minimum prices or both, from cirrhosis of the liver, with patients suffering from but this is certainly important. I should like to enjoy jaundice, cachexia, a grossly swollen stomach and distended another quote with the House. It is from “The Surgeon’s veins, and vomiting blood. The original instrument of Daughter” by Sir Walter Scott: torture was still in use when I was working. The Sengstaken “The burgesses of a Scottish borough are rendered by their tube is a great big tube with two balloons on the end limited means of luxury, inaccessible to gout, surfeits and all the that the doctor would ram down the patient’s throat. comfortable chronic diseases which are attendant on wealth and The doctor blew up the distal balloon and pulled it indolence.” 337 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 338

[Dr. Richard Taylor] under threat from a particular danger such as alcohol, mixed messages are the last thing they need. If young Price is crucial. If people do not have the money, they people are going to avoid messages, they are certainly cannot buy alcohol. Supermarket promotions must be going to avoid mixed messages. The Government have stopped, because the pre-loading takes place at home not sent out clear messages on this issue so far. before people go out and that is the end of it. One of the mixed messages involves the Government’s We must also aim the message at children. The hon. suggestion that this is simply a law and order issue, Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) mentioned parenting, when it is not. It is a mistake to think that it is only a law which is extremely important, but if the parents are not and order issue and to hive it off to another Department doing the job, someone else will have to do it, and, to of State. This is a health debate, and if we are to make my mind, that has to be the state. the kind of progress that the report highlights, we must acknowledge that this is absolutely a health issue. I ask Bob Spink: The hon. Gentleman might be aware of my hon. Friend the Minister to take cognisance of that the Confiscation of Alcohol (Young Persons) Act 1997, fact. I am sure that she is not entirely unsympathetic to which gave the police the power to confiscate alcohol that message. from youngsters on the street. It also gave them the duty I want to focus on two aspects of the report. The first to report back to the parents what the youngsters were is minimum pricing, and I agree with the hon. Member doing, so that the parents could take control of their for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor) that that is the key element youngsters. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the in this debate. The second involves advertising and police should always use that power to inform the promotion. The House knows that we have been down parents? They do not do so at the moment. this road before in our debates on how to deal with tobacco advertising and promotion, in the light of the Dr. Taylor: I thank my hon. Friend for that, and of health risks involved. Of course, alcohol is not the same course I agree with him. The parents must be told. kind of dangerous substance or the killer that tobacco I approve of the Government’s Impact Assessment is, but it is a killer, a dangerous substance and a nuisance for the Licensing Act 2003 (Alcohol Mandatory Licensing none the less. I do not know whether it is helpful to Conditions) Order 2010. In their paper on it entitled express these thoughts in bald terms, but I will do so, “Summary: Intervention and Options”, they state that because it might just help to point up where we are. option 2 is their preferred option. It contains five elements: When the Government came to the view that tobacco “1. Restricting irresponsible on-trade promotions advertising and smoking in public places should be 2. Prevent the dispensing of alcohol directly into the mouth in banned, the Department’s original position was to propose on-trade premises a hybrid ban, under which smoking would be allowed in 3. Ensure that an age verification policy/system is in operation public houses that did not serve food. We then had a in all licensed premises rather idiotic argument about that, before the House 4. Ensure smaller measures are available in on-trade premises decided that there should be a complete ban on public 5. Ensure free tap water is available in on-trade premises”. health grounds, to protect the work force. I suggest to my hon. Friend the Minister that we should not have Those are all laudable aims, but I want the Government any more idiotic little debates like that. We should send to go further and accept that price is one of the most a clear message. The tipping point for the Government important weapons. in the debate on tobacco, in health terms, was the No one is saying that the Health Committee has all number of deaths—120,000 a year—that were attributed the answers, but it is making suggestions that deserve to tobacco. They came to the view that that was some thought. Sadly, we are not all like Winston Churchill, unacceptable, despite the arguments about freedom of who is quoted as having said: action. “I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me.” Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman has suggested I am afraid that that is not the case for the majority of that the numbers of deaths made the House legislate for people. the smoking ban, but did it not also have something to do with the fact that the Scottish Parliament pioneered the smoking ban in Scotland? That ban was in place for 2.53 pm a year before it came in here, and its success encouraged Stephen Hesford (Wirral, West) (Lab): I speak as yet the House to legislate on that issue. another member of the Health Select Committee. I should like to echo the praise of my hon. Friend the Stephen Hesford: I do not want to gainsay that, but Member for Dartford (Dr. Stoate) for the Chair of the the Irish experience should also be considered. A ban Select Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for was introduced there, and, I think, in Spain as well. Rother Valley (Mr. Barron), who led this inquiry admirably. There were other precedents, but I take the hon. Gentleman’s It is in no small part thanks to the way in which he and point. the Clerks of the Committee put it together that we got I have said that alcohol is not the dangerous substance such an excellent report, and I am pleased that the that tobacco is, but, as the Health Committee heard, the House has the opportunity to debate it this afternoon. death rate from tobacco-related illness was 120,000 a I shall say only a few words, as many of my hon. year when the Government decided to take action to Friends have made the important points already. I should ban the advertising of tobacco products. The death rate like to say to the Minister that we have a Budget coming from alcohol-related diseases is now about 40,000. Would up, and that our policy has revolved around mixed the tipping point be 80,000 or 100,000? Is it only at that messages for too many years. When young people are point that the Government would want to act? I would 339 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 340 like to ask the House and the Minister to reflect, as we who I see is talking to a colleague rather than listening might prefer action sooner than that—if not quite to to the debate, will confirm that it is indeed Tory party nip the problem in the bud, certainly to head off the policy to support minimum pricing, as was mentioned problem and stop it getting worse. It is a sort of in the Statutory Instrument Committee. If she did, it precautionary principle. It seems to me that 40,000 deaths would be a considerable step forward for the debate a year are too many, in view of the tragedy that this generally and it would help the Minister. means for the people involved and their families. I thus The House knows that I am stepping down at the remind the Minister that we are now at the point where forthcoming general election. I do not know whether action needs to be taken. this will be my last address to the House, but if it is, I There are comparator countries. The hon. Member could not have chosen a more important issue on which for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) has just I would like to see progress made. I hope that what I and mentioned the Scottish experience, and France is also my colleagues have said today is not the last word, but interesting. As I believe my hon. Friend the Member for the first word to start a process of moving forward on Dartford mentioned in passing, the advertising of alcohol areas such as minimum pricing. on television and in the cinema is banned in France. That provides a way forward, sending an absolutely 3.7 pm clear cultural message to anyone susceptible to that Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I advertising and to the drinks industry. am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Wirral, West Finally, I want to deal with minimum pricing. It (Stephen Hesford), and I really hope that this will not seems indisputable that minimum pricing has to be the be his last contribution in this place. If it is, it is a pretty way forward. The chief medical officer has recommended good note to go out on. I warmly congratulate him on it and I know that the Minister would not readily want his speech. It was also a delight to follow the hon. to reject such clear advice from such a respected source. Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor) in his always pleasant tour around the instruments of death, pain Kelvin Hopkins: To reinforce my hon. Friend’s point, and torture that he always shares with the House. I studied and taught economics, so I know about a My contribution will be brief. I mainly want to thing called a demand curve, which shows that if the congratulate the right hon. Member for Rother Valley price is raised, consumption goes down. (Mr. Barron), the Chair of the Health Committee, and his colleagues on what I think is a very good, if not Stephen Hesford: I thank my hon. Friend, but it is excellent, report. It touches on all the salient points and more sophisticated than that, as the price rise is aimed makes a number of very useful recommendations. My at those who are the most vulnerable. That is why this one hope is that the Government are listening, and would be such a successful and discriminatory measure— listening very clearly, to what the Health Committee discriminatory in the positive sense that it discriminates says, as it gets to the heart of the matter. If the recommended in the interest of those who need assistance to avoid the approach were adopted, I am sure that many lives dangers that they are not presently able to avoid. I would be saved and the health of England would be mean, of course, young people, who are bombarded greatly enhanced. with the availability of alcohol to a shocking extent. The report has touched on all the right issues to do I do not understand the Government’s objection and with people’s corrosive attitude to and relationship with I ask the Minister to deal with it. Is it that 40,000 deaths alcohol. We need to ensure that young people understand a year from alcohol-related diseases are not enough to the key issues surrounding alcohol and, more widely, be a tipping point? Is it that they believe the interests of how to improve the general health of the nation, both the moderate drinker would be unnecessarily prejudiced? north and south of the border. I really hope that the If so, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Minister has listened to the many excellent contributions Valley (Mr. Barron) has dealt with that point, showing so far from Health Committee members. that the interests of the moderate drinker consuming I acknowledge that very little of what the report the recommended units would not be particularly recommends will affect me, the MP for Perth and North prejudiced. Is it because, as we approach a general Perthshire, although a few things touch on my constituency. election, with a Budget adjacent to it, the Government One important example is the minimum pricing issue. do not want to be seen as killjoys? Perhaps they see it as The Scottish Government will, of course, make up their politically dangerous, so they do not want to do the own mind about minimum pricing. If it is to be used as right thing. I think I can assist the Minister on that a duty mechanism, it will of course affect Scotland as it point, too. is not possible to have different duty rates north and It would be helpful if the Conservative Front-Bench south of the border. I looked closely and carefully at the team made the point clearly in this debate, unlike Select Committee’s report on duty and I believe there is Conservative members of the Health Committee who a great case to be made for using duty as a mechanism voted against minimum pricing. In a recent Statutory for pricing, which should be explored further. Instrument Committee, we considered the five new tests I am grateful for the many specific mentions that mentioned today by the hon. Member for Wyre Forest Scotland receives in the report. It acknowledges the work (Dr. Taylor). The Tory Front-Bench spokesperson on done by my colleagues in the Scottish Government—on that Committee said that it was absolutely the Conservative the separation of the aisles in supermarkets, looking at policy to support minimum pricing. So whether the whether licensing should be part of promoting public reason for the reticence about this policy relates to health, and the commitment to continue to examine party politics or the nanny state or bad timing, I can tell opening hours. All these are important and it is good the Minister that it is no longer an issue. Let us hope that the Health Committee report acknowledges the that the hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), fine and good work done in that respect. 341 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 342

[Pete Wishart] I am passionate about this issue. I wish that the Health Committee’s report had gone to the Scottish It is also heartening to see a consensual, cross-party Government, because we would have accepted it in full, approach to this issue. We do not have anything like with no reservations. It is a good report which contains that in Scotland. We have absolute partisanship when it everything that is required for a responsible Government comes to health issues there. It may surprise the House to get on top of the issue. What a lot of nonsense we that not one Member of the Scottish Parliament from hear from those who oppose minimum pricing! any of the London-based parties—Liberal, Labour or I represent three fantastic whisky distilleries in my Conservative—supports minimum pricing. Not one! constituency, two of which support minimum pricing. I That is absolutely incredible. It is great for me to hear do not see any behooded guys hanging around in the Liberal and Labour Members support minimum pricing, parks getting off their faces on a bottle of prime malt but I say to them, “For goodness’ sake, share your whisky. They drink cheap cider. None of them is going passion for that idea with your colleagues up the road!” around consuming a good bottle of Edradour from my There is legislation available that would enable us to constituency.I wish more people would consume Edradour, improve the health of our nation, but the Liberal and because it is a very fine product. Labour parties in Scotland are acting as an oppositional There is no good reason why minimum pricing cannot bloc to prevent it from being passed, which is shameful. be supported. It will improve the public health of our The position of the Liberals is absurd and bizarre. nation. I wish that the right hon. Gentleman’s report Two elections will take place in Scotland next year—one were lying in front of our colleagues in Scotland, but for this place in a few weeks and one for the Scottish unfortunately it is not. Unfortunately every London-based Parliament in a year. Those who vote for a Liberal to Member of the Scottish Parliament is against what the become a Westminster Member of Parliament will be right hon. Gentleman is trying to promote, and that is voting for a Liberal who supports minimum pricing, absolutely shameless. but those who vote for a Liberal to become a Member I hope that England gets the health policy that it of the Scottish Parliament will be voting for a Liberal requires and deserves. I only wish that we could as well, who will be against it. Although the devolution settlement and I wish that Labour politicians—two of whom have implies different policies north and south of the border, belatedly arrived in the Chamber—would go up there for the Liberal party to espouse directly opposing policies and ensure that their colleagues in the Scottish Parliament is bizarre, absurd and appalling, and they should be support these proposals. thoroughly ashamed of themselves. However, I suppose that that is what we should expect from our Liberal Mr. Jim McGovern (Dundee, West) (Lab) rose— colleagues. Why is there such opposition to minimum pricing? Pete Wishart: Of course I will not give way to the The same issues are involved, and, if anything, Scotland hon. Gentleman. He has only just arrived. What he has worse alcohol problems than the rest of United should do is go up the road to the Scottish Government Kingdom. Indeed, a report has shown that our problems and persuade them to do the right thing. are bigger and deeper. One would expect the Liberals and Labour to encourage us to do more, rather than encouraging us to do less. The British Medical Association, 3.15 pm the Scottish physicians’ union, the nursing union and Mr. John Grogan (Selby) (Lab): It is a great pleasure the chief police officers—the same people who support to follow the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire the report from the Committee chaired by the right (Pete Wishart). I will happily give way to some of my hon. Member for Rother Valley—support what we are Scottish colleagues and friends shortly, when I deal with attempting to do. the issue of minimum pricing in Scotland. Let me say in It is the usual story. It is the retailers and those who passing to the hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor) produce cheap alcohol who oppose minimum pricing. that he underestimates his influence on the House and The most scurrilous people, however, are saying that the the power of his speeches to change minds. I shall opposition from the London-based parties in Scotland certainly stick to no more than four units at the reception might have something to do with politics. I would not that I shall be attending tonight. suggest for a minute that the Liberal party would dare My main purpose today, as chair of the all-party to play politics with the health of our nation, but there parliamentary beer group, is to forge a grand Yorkshire are people who would suggest that that is exactly what alliance with the chair of the Health Committee, my is going on. The Liberals and Labour down here are right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley anxious to deal with the issue, and the Liberals in (Mr. Barron) on at least some of his proposals. I think Scotland know that minimum pricing would improve that particularly fitting, because my right hon. Friend health, but they are—some people would suggest—playing was born in Tadcaster in my constituency, the home of politics. brewing in this country and the only town in England As I said to the hon. Member for Wirral, West, the that contains three breweries. He also went there to same thing happened with the Labour and Liberal make a speech on my behalf, long before I was elected. Executive when we pioneered the smoking ban in Scotland. He may remember that he did so in a pub. I therefore They do not want to allow the Scottish National party think it especially appropriate for me to speak in support Government next year to say, “We were able to implement of some of his proposals in what will be one of my last primary health legislation that will make a difference to speeches as the Member of Parliament for Selby. public health.” They do not want us to have that Let me go straight to the issue at the heart of the opportunity. Their opposition is shameful, and I think debate: minimum pricing. I am glad to see another they should take a good look at themselves. Yorkshireman, the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip 343 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 344

Davies), in the Chamber. He may wish to speak later, Mr. McGovern: While my hon. Friend is on the but earlier he asked an important question: why should subject of Scotland, I appreciate that I came in at the our constituents who are moderate drinkers be asked to end of the speech made by the hon. Member for Perth pay that little bit more? and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), so he did not I understand that Opposition Front Benchers are want to let me intervene. However, does my hon. Friend now committed to outlawing the below-cost selling of agree that the hypocrisy, at worst, or irony, at best, of alcohol. I welcome that, but I should be interested to the hon. Gentleman’s party’s position is that it says that learn whether that means a minimum price. Below-cost it wants to raise the price of low-cost alcohol, which selling is quite difficult to define. Would the simplest obviously comes within the incomes of the people who way of outlawing it be to set a broad price for the are earning the least in Scotland, but wants to exempt purpose? The supermarkets themselves might welcome malt whisky, for example? That party says that nobody clearer guidance. A couple of years ago, I suggested runs amok when they drink malt whisky, and the implication that Sir Terence Leahy, the boss of Tesco— of that is that people on low incomes cannot be trusted with alcohol while people on high incomes can obviously Stephen Hesford: Tesco is in favour of minimum be trusted. pricing. I do not think there could be a better illustration Mr. Grogan: As I understand it, any worthwhile of the point that my hon. Friend is about to make. system of minimum pricing must apply the minimum price to units of alcohol, whatever their origin. This Mr. Grogan: A couple of years ago, I suggested that debate must clearly be had in the Scottish Parliament Sir Terence Leahy was in danger of becoming the and I am impressed, as an outside but interested observer, godfather of British binge drinking, given the low prices that in Scotland—although they might disagree on the at Tesco. Some alcohol was being sold more cheaply detail—not only people from the medical profession than water. The response was interesting. I have yet to but tenants, a number of police chiefs and the Campaign learn that Tesco has come out in favour of minimum for Real Ale have come out in favour of minimum pricing, although my hon. Friend may have better pricing. There is potential for a broad alliance. information than me. It has, however, drawn attention to the difficulty of acting alone in a competitive market. Mr. David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): The question If it did that, it could be accused of acting against the in Scotland is not whether there is a health issue—there public interest, and could be in danger of infringing is no argument about that, as has been explained—but competition law. about how best to deal with it. We are not using the This is not rocket science. It is within the Government’s legislation as it stands. We should be talking about power to pass an order under one of the Competition withdrawing licences from those who sell to under-age Acts, in this House and the other place, exempting the drinkers and using all the legislation that there is before alcohol sector from those restrictions. I believe—this we move to the second part of the process. It is not may answer the point made by the hon. Member for surprising that tenants and licensees want a minimum Shipley—that supermarkets would then begin to provide price because pubs now have the real problem of trying discounts on other goods, because the competitive pressures to ensure that they can offer a bargain. Minimum would still be there. Alcohol is not the same as baked pricing actually helps the pubs; it is not surprising that beans, and I think it reasonable for it to be treated they want it. differently, as it is in other western countries such as Canada and the United States. There is much more Mr. Grogan: I welcome the vigorous debate that is regulation there. I met national beer wholesale clearly happening within the Labour party. I also suggest representatives from the United States the other week, that it is happening within the Government. I was just and they were surprised to learn how little regulation looking at the papers and clearly the Secretary of State there is in this country. for Health has strong views on this issue. Scotland has led the way on a number of public Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman must be really health measures. There was probably a Labour bemused by being caught up in this Scottish episode of Administration at the time when smoking was banned. the debate. Let me clarify: everybody in Scotland is for That was another occasion on which my right hon. minimum pricing, whether they are health professionals, Friend and I joined forces, because, although we approached chief police officers and the licensing authorities. The the issue from different angles, we had a common only people against minimum pricing in Scotland are interest. The health lobby—with which my right hon. the Labour party in the Scottish Parliament, the Liberals Friend had connections—and many pub companies felt in the Scottish Parliament and of course the Conservatives, that, ultimately, a complete ban would be better than a as we would expect. They are the people against it and partial one. That was at the time of the smoking ban they are the people we need to persuade. I am glad that debate, which within the United Kingdom was initiated my two Scottish colleagues have turned up latterly—they in Scotland. might be able to listen to some of the debate and to hear I hope that my colleagues in the Labour party and hon. Members, such as his good self, explain why minimum other parties north of the border will reconsider this pricing is necessary. matter. It would help if measures were taken in conjunction with the United Kingdom Government because, in Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. May I remind hon. terms of competition law, only this House—as I understand Members that interventions should be brief? it—could exempt the Scottish Government or, indeed the UK Government, from that law in a way that would Mr. Grogan: Perhaps I can conclude this section of make the position legally watertight. I hope that will my speech by saying that the hon. Member for Leeds, happen. North-West (Greg Mulholland), who spoke from the 345 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 346

[Mr. Grogan] Licensing law reform has, on the whole, worked in our country. I do not think that anybody would want to Liberal Front Bench, invited us all to the Otley folk go back to the magistrates’ taking charge of licensing. festival earlier—an invitation that I shall happily take Local councils are much closer to where the problems up. If I get any invitations to Scotland or to the Scottish lie. They have the powers to intervene and are much Parliament, I shall happily take them up too. I also better at forging partnerships with publicans and so on understand that there is now an active beer group in the than the magistrates ever were. I disagree with my hon. Scottish Parliament. Friend the Member for Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins)—I Moving swiftly on, as I know that Members still want think that the idea of going back to 11 o’clock closing is to contribute, I think that the absolute principle should not one that any main political party is likely to advocate be that the stronger—or more concentrated—the alcohol as we go into the next election. is, the greater the level of duty should be. Most people The Licensing Act 2003 is a good base from which to would see that as common sense. Unfortunately, we do take other measures and I think that minimum pricing not have that approach and, over the past decade, we is one of the measures whose time has probably come. have tended to increase duty on one of the weaker or An awful lot of the industry supports it—Molson Coors more diluted forms of alcohol, beer, whose price has points to the experience in Canada and are not opposed gone up by more than 40 per cent. in the last 10 years. to the idea. Many others, as the debate takes shape, will The increase has been less on the very concentrated come out and argue the case. The issue will be near the forms of alcohol, such as spirits, including whisky and top of the agenda in the next Parliament. vodka, even though spirits are a lot cheaper to produce. Fermenting beer is a much more expensive process at 3.28 pm about 20p per unit than the 10p that it costs to produce a unit of spirits. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I do not intend to detain the House for long. Let me start by apologising It is interesting that there is also an imbalance between to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and to the Chairman the duties imposed on beer and cider. Mark Shirley of of the Health Committee, the right hon. Member for Rockingham Forest Cider asks: Rother Valley (Mr. Barron), for coming late to the “Does anyone know why there is currently such a difference debate, but I have been able to follow most of it from a between the duty paid on similar strength beers and ciders?” monitor. Given the Chairman’s lack of complaint about Let me remind the House: the duty rate per pint on beer his own colleagues appearing and intervening in the rises fivefold between 1.2 per cent. and 7.5 per cent. debate, I suspect that his concern with me is not that I alcohol by volume. As the beer gets stronger, the duty am contributing to it after having arrived late, but simply goes up. That is not the case with cider. So, if we that he will not agree with what I am about to say. I am compare a can of Carling and a can of Strongbow of afraid that I am going to disappoint him again. exactly the same size, the Strongbow has 33 per cent. The report is certainly a useful contribution to the more alcohol but 51 per cent. less duty. debate on addiction—not, unfortunately, on addiction I hope that when the Chancellor is preparing his to alcohol, but on this Government’s and the Health Budget and when future Budgets are prepared, the duty Committee’s addiction to the nanny state. They have on alcohol will be rebalanced. I am pleased that the already helped to dismantle the pub and club industry alcohol industry, unlike last year, is not going united with their smoking ban. Pubs are closing at the rate of into the Budget debate. Last year, the industry and the 50 a week—many because of the ban on smoking in various trade associations asked for an entire freeze on public places—and the same fate is being felt by many alcohol duty.I do not think that that is realistic, particularly clubs, such as working men’s clubs. It seems that the given the budget deficit, but I think that beer has been Health Committee, not satisfied with dismantling the particularly badly treated in recent years, to the extent pub and club industry, now wishes to direct its fire in that as the duty rises there is not the increase in tax take. other areas, such as at cinemas and commercial We have reached the law of diminishing returns. broadcasters, to try to close down those industries. Finally, I hope that all parties will support the idea Many sports will also be adversely affected if its that there should be a lower rate of duty on draught recommendations are introduced. beer, which would help pubs. When I was a boy, the All that would not be so bad if I thought that, in the difference between the price of beer in the pub and in end, if after all the Committee’s recommendations were the supermarkets was about 2:1, whereas today it is introduced, its members would say that they were satisfied. about 7:1. The European Union is reviewing the duty The problem, however, as with all these matters, is that regime and it would be possible to argue that it might the report panders to the zealots in society who are allow member states to have a lower rate of duty on never satisfied. I guarantee that if all the recommendations draught beer in the same way as smaller producers of were introduced, Committee members would, within a beer have a lower rate of duty. few months at most, come back with further It is worth noting that alcohol consumption is going recommendations because the previous ones had not down in our society. Some alcohol education is beginning gone far enough. This lobby is impossible to satisfy. to work. It is interesting to note that the National Union of Students is now pushing something called Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): My hon. “social norm” education. That terrible phrase probably Friend is making a typically robust contribution to this comes from the United States, but the basic idea is that important debate. Does he agree that we should focus getting drunk does not lead to social success and that not just on the very narrow issue of alcohol pricing, but the opposite is true. A lot of student unions are doing on the regulatory framework for pubs, given that hundreds very good work and it is beginning to have an impact on of pubs have closed in the past few years for the reasons alcohol consumption. that he mentions? Does he agree that the kind of community 347 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 348 resource that would have fostered sensible and responsible Philip Davies: Those arguments have gone: we are drinking within the community is disappearing? We debating alcohol now. I have a great deal of time and need to consider that context and not just the narrow respect for the hon. Gentleman, but there is a problem parameters of supermarket alcohol pricing. with his logic. The argument appears to be—and the hon. Member for Wirral, West (Stephen Hesford) seemed Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is right. I commend to to be making it too, if I remember what he said correctly— him much of the speech of the hon. Member for Leeds, that so many people die as a result of drinking alcohol North-West (Greg Mulholland), who made a number every year that alcohol must be banned altogether. That of telling points about the importance of pubs in local is the logical conclusion of that approach, and I wonder communities. I, too, would be happy to take up an whether it is in fact the agenda of the Health Committee invitation to the Otley festival, and I know that he or the hon. Members who make that point. If so, I comes along to the Saltaire festival in my constituency. would much prefer them to have the courage of their The problem with the political classes generally, convictions. They should be prepared to stand up and particularly in this House, is that when they are faced tell their constituents that they want to ban them from with a problem—there is no doubt that there is a drinking at all because it kills 40,000 people a year. problem with excessive drinking of alcohol—the solution However, if they are not prepared to go that far, I am that they propose has to be constituted of two particular afraid that all the measures that are considered to be so themes. The first ingredient in any solution that politicians important are really just spitting in the wind. propose is that it must show that they are doing something; Implementing these measures from the Health they have to be seen to be doing something. The second Committee will not lead to a huge reduction in the ingredient, which we always see, is that the proposal number of deaths, and I do not think that the Committee’s must not offend anyone and must be superficially popular. members really think so either. All of this is just spitting Once again, that approach applies to many of the in the wind, and I suspect that the measures are really a recommendations, most of which would not make a cover from the real agenda, which is to ban people from blind bit of difference to excessive or under-age alcohol drinking alcohol altogether. consumption. A great many people in the House seem to want to do I was particularly struck by the speech of the hon. nothing else but ban everyone from doing all the things Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), that they themselves do not happen to like. I do not who made the best speech that I have ever heard in think that I was brought into politics for that. In fact, I support of a Scottish Parliament. I have never been am speaking today as a teetotaller: I do not even drink particularly in favour of it in the past, but now that I alcohol, but I very much defend the rights of those who have heard that there are so many sensible people in the do. People who want to enjoy drinking their alcohol Scottish Parliament who oppose his zealous drive for responsibly should not have to pay extra on their minimum pricing, I think that is a strong argument for supermarket shopping just because a few yobs cannot it. Perhaps if the Scottish Parliament were closed down, take their drink of an evening. however, we could have some of those people down here Today we have the incredible sight of members of the and then we might have a more sensible debate. Labour party—of all parties—standing up one after the other to argue that some of the poorest people in Mr. McGovern: The hon. Gentleman mentioned the their constituencies should be forced to pay more for nanny state earlier, but Scotland is becoming something their alcohol. We are talking about pensioners, or people of a dictatorial state. Is he aware that the Scottish on benefits or fixed incomes, who usually go to the Executive are now saying that cigarettes cannot be cheapest supermarkets. That is what Labour Members advertised or put on the counter and even that sweets seem to want, even though the overwhelming majority cannot be put on the counter because they might damage of people drink their alcohol perfectly reasonably and children’s teeth? How much of a nanny state, or a derive some pleasure from doing so. dictatorial state, is that? What kind of party is it that claims to speak up for the poorest people in society yet tries to make those Philip Davies: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. My people pay more? The richest people in the country will problem is that those are the sort of measures that his not suffer from minimum pricing, because they can Government are keen to introduce as well. We appear to presumably afford to pay a bit more for their alcohol. have a Dutch auction between the Scottish Executive They will not care. It is the poorest people in our and the Westminster Government as to who can introduce constituencies who will suffer, yet Labour Members the biggest nanny state of all. I am afraid that both are seem very happy to stand up, one after another, and going in completely the wrong direction. I agree with speak in support of these proposals. Where did they the sentiment behind his point, but I do not think that lose their way? How did they lose their roots? Which his Government are any less guilty than the Scottish people in this country do they represent now? They Executive. certainly do not speak up for the poorest people in their constituencies, or for the overwhelming majority of Kelvin Hopkins: It is clear that the hon. Gentleman people who like to drink their alcohol in moderation. and I come from polar opposite positions, but he is Minimum pricing will not stop young people going making the classic freedom speech. He is saying that we into town centres on a Friday and Saturday night with have the freedom to do what we want, without intervention the intention of getting bladdered—or whatever term is from the state. The same speech will have been made in current usage. The price is irrelevant, because those against the breathalyser, crash helmets, the compulsory young people set out to get bladdered. They do not set wearing of seat belts and a whole range of traffic out to spend £15 or £20 on a night, they set out to get regulations that are designed to save lives. Freedoms absolutely drunk. Making decent people pay a bit more affect other people, not just the person exercising them. for their alcohol in supermarkets will not solve that. 349 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 350

[Philip Davies] Kelvin Hopkins: The classic argument used by tobacco and cigarette producers was that advertising was intended It is simplistic beyond belief for people to stand up in not to encourage people to smoke, but to encourage here and say, “I know: if we put an extra 40p on a bottle them to smoke one brand rather than another. We of wine, or 50p on a can of beer, the whole problem of thought that that was nonsense: we dismissed it, and we youth drinking and people causing carnage in town introduced the ban on advertising. centres is going to disappear.” I would be worried if anyone seriously believed that, because it would show Philip Davies: Yes, indeed, and that was folly as well, how out of touch with how the world works they but I am afraid that that is one element of the nanny were—but I suspect that people who say that know full state that has already got through. I am trying to well that such a price rise will not make that difference, prevent the next swathe of the nanny state from being but it suits their argument to say that it will. I should introduced. like to get back to reality. I support one part of what the Select Committee Mr. McGovern: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that said. Following on from what was said by the hon. there seems to be no evidence to suggest that since the Members for Leeds, North-West and for Selby smoking ban came in fewer people smoke, so putting a (Mr. Grogan), from anyone’s perspective in this debate, minimum price on alcohol does not suggest that people it would be absolute folly to increase duty on alcohol, will drink less? because that would be yet another nail in the coffin for many pubs in our constituencies around the country. As the Health Committee very sensibly said, when a pub Philip Davies: There are long-term trends, and what is sells only alcohol, it must pass on to its customers any reducing smoking is not the ban on advertising brands, increase in the duty on alcohol, but supermarkets sell but the fact that fewer people are smoking anyway, as about 40,000 products in each store, so they can absorb part of a longer-term trend. Alcohol consumption is any increase in duty, by offsetting it on to the other going down. Alcohol consumption may drop after 39,000-odd products that they sell across the store. So introducing such measures, but that does not mean that an increase in duty would be absolutely calamitous for it has fallen because of them; it will probably fall pubs, and I very much hope that, whatever the Government anyway. The hon. Gentleman is right: minimum pricing do, they do not increase duty. and banning advertising will not make any material difference to people who want to go out and get drunk, Mr. David Hamilton: Does the hon. Gentleman agree despite all the problems that they will suffer as a result. with my hon. Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan) However, there will be a big knock-on effect on many and the early-day motion tabled in my name last year other people. that we should change the duty on draught beers and Let me explain why I think some of the proposed ciders, because that would assist local pubs and clubs in alcohol advertising bans are so simplistic. The Committee the community? recommends a ban on cinema advertising in relation to films classified for under-18s. Superficially, that sounds Philip Davies: I am incredibly sympathetic to the like a sensible way to stop advertising to young people. point that the hon. Gentleman makes, because the duty The problem is that a film’s classification bears no is excessive for many pubs, many of which are closing or resemblance to the age of the people watching it. I am are on the brink of doing so, and we need to do happy for anyone to argue otherwise, but I suspect from something to help them. reading the report, in which it gets only a passing I want to comment on some of the points made reference, that that the Health Committee did not go about advertising, and then I will finish. The whole through the idea in any detail. I bet that the age profile approach to marketing and sponsorship is completely of audiences of films with an 18 classification is younger wrong and simplistic. I used to work in marketing, for than that of the audiences of many 12 or PG-classified my sins. I am sure that hon. Members are familiar with films. Many older people do not want to see an 18 film, this, but it is a point worth making: marketing attempts because it is full of gore, violence and sex and all sorts to improve brand awareness and increase market share. of things that they do not want to see. Films classified For example, when Cadbury sponsored “Coronation 18 are often targeted at a younger audience than PG or Street”, I do think that anyone anywhere in the country 12 films. Allowing alcohol advertising only in relation leapt off the sofa the moment that Cadbury’s logo came to 18-classified films will probably ensure that more up at the start of the programme, switched off the TV younger people see such advertising than the current and rushed to the nearest confectioner to buy a bar of arrangements allow. Superficially it seems like a good Dairy Milk. That is not the purpose of marketing. Its idea, but like much of the report, it appears that the purpose is that the next time someone goes to buy a bar Committee did not think about it in any great detail, let of chocolate they will buy a bar of Dairy Milk, rather alone analyse it. than a Kit Kat. That is the whole point of marketing. There is a recommendation that a 9 o’clock watershed When I did my marketing for Asda, we did not expect should be introduced for television advertising, but anyone to get up following a TV advert and rush to the that, too, is untargeted. The current rules already forbid nearest Asda supermarket, much as we would have alcohol advertisements in programmes targeted at under-18s, liked them to, no doubt; we just hoped that the next and those rules apply 24 hours a day. Given services time that went to the supermarket, they would go to such as Sky Plus and the ease of recording programmes, Asda rather than Tesco. All the banning of advertising, a watershed is meaningless. All such a measure will do is sponsorship and so on does not make a blind bit of have a huge impact on the revenue of commercial difference to consumption overall, but it does make a broadcasters, many of which are struggling to keep big difference to how much of each brand people drink. going as it is. Huge damage will be caused, and if we are 351 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 352 not careful, we will be left with a BBC monopoly, but Philip Davies: I have read the report. Let us— we will have made no difference to the amount of alcohol consumed by people in this country. Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. The Committee recommends that Interventions, as the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron) knows, must be made from a standing “No event should be sponsored if more than 10% of those attending are under 18 years of age.” position, and not as interjections from a sitting position. On what evidence was that based? Absolutely none. It is Philip Davies: I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for simply another way of introducing the nanny state. In being drawn into the right hon. Gentleman’s sedentary fact, according to recent research by Cardiff business interventions. school, an alcohol sponsorship ban would have little effect on youth drinking patterns. That is the view of I know that we have other business to discuss today someone who has researched the subject—unlike the so I shall not detain the House any longer. I despair at Health Committee, it seems, which is just scrabbling the endless consensus that there seems to be in the around for new regulations to introduce to increase the House, which is forever seeking to restrict people’s nanny state. It does not matter to the Committee if the freedoms in this country, to try to stop them doing measures make no difference; it just wants even more things that they do legitimately and, in the overwhelming restrictions. majority of cases, without any problem. For hon. Members to lecture people constantly about what they may and The study, which was published by the International may not do, and what they should and should not say, is Journal of Sports Marketing & Sponsorship, found depressing beyond belief. The report is more of the “no significant statistical correlations between sports sponsorship same—more of the nanny state. awareness and attitudes to alcohol use.” I know for a fact that the moment the proposed Where is that mentioned in the Health Committee’s measures are introduced, the zealots represented on the report? Did the Committee read that study? Apparently Select Committee will be back for more, and back for not, because it did not suit their prejudices. What such a more again. They are never satisfied. The hon. Member ban would do—if the Government were daft enough to for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor) said that he wanted the introduce it—is make a huge hole in the funding for Government to go a little further and do a little more. many sports in this country. Presumably, the Health Unfortunately, he and the people whom he represents Committee is one of those bodies that is always banging always want the Government to go a little further and on about how people should do more exercise, take up do a little more. sports and so on, yet here it is proposing a measure which the people who have studied the subject say will Dr. Richard Taylor: I wonder if the hon. Gentleman make no difference to alcohol consumption, but will knows the good that the ban on smoking in public take a huge amount of funding—perhaps £150 million places has done. The incidence of heart attacks in Italy, to £200 million—out of sports, much of which is used in Scotland and in this country has dropped. We, as a to promote grass-roots sport in our local communities. Health Committee, do not act for selfish reasons of Where is the sense in that from a health perspective? self-aggrandisement or any such thing. We are thinking purely of the health of the nation. When parents are not Mr. Barron: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us what providing adequate control, the nanny state has a place, sports would lose between £150 million and £200 million, if it is thinking of the good of all the people. if he is right? Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman makes my point Philip Davies: That is how much alcohol companies for me; I am grateful to him. I would never suggest that spend on sports sponsorship. Presumably, if the right he or anyone else would make those recommendations hon. Gentleman’s Select Committee had studied the for selfish reasons—but I think that they are making subject in great detail he would know that, but it seems them for misguided reasons. The logic of his argument to have come as a surprise to him. That is a shame. on smoking and alcohol is to ban them altogether. It can lead only to that conclusion. Mr. Barron: I think the hon. Gentleman is talking about one sport. I remember this argument being brought Dr. Taylor: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving up years ago, when we decided to stop tobacco sponsorship way again. Tobacco and alcohol are entirely different. I of sport. The sponsorship of Formula One and other would ban smoking altogether if I could, but I would sports in this country by the tobacco industry was not ban alcohol because, as everybody has said all replaced by the promotion of far healthier products. afternoon, drunk sensibly, it has tremendous benefits and is great. Philip Davies: The people who have studied the proposal, which the right hon. Gentleman’s Select Committee Philip Davies: I am incredibly grateful, because there seemingly has not done, came to the conclusion that we have the first member of the Health Committee to there is no evidence that it would have any effect at all break ranks in terms of its real motives—in relation to on alcohol use, yet his Committee is prepared, without smoking, at least. I commend the hon. Gentleman for any evidence, to siphon off—[Interruption.] That is being open and honest about what he wishes to do, and what the Health Committee proposes— I look forward to him commending that approach to “No event should be sponsored if more than 10 per cent. of the other members of the Committee, so that they can those attending are under 18 years of age.” stand up and be honest about their real ultimate agenda. That is virtually every sport one can think of. I fear that despite the hon. Gentleman’s moderate approach to alcohol, the arguments made by others Mr. Barron: Read the report. that 40,000 people a year die from drinking alcohol 353 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 354

[Philip Davies] and the public health police. The issue is about balance— [Interruption.] I am an eternal optimist, so I always try mean that people want to ban that, too. They do not to achieve some balance. My hon. Friend is right about have the courage of their convictions, however, because one point, however: we often have a knee-jerk reaction they do not think that people in their local working to such issues. It is terribly important to ensure that men’s clubs will tolerate being told that they cannot measures are robustly supported by evidence, but it is smoke or drink any more. It is not what they believe very easy to take the simple route and think, “Oh well, that affects what they say; what counts is whether they that’s all right, we’ve now done something about it.” If think that it will be acceptable to people in their local the evidence does not bear out the measure, however, we working men’s clubs. end up having no effect at all. The hon. Gentleman has indicated that whatever Some time ago, my hon. Friend the Member for measures are taken on any of those issues, the zealots South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) wrote to the chief will always want to come back for more; they will never, medical officer—he has not had a response to that ever be satisfied. I therefore urge the Government to letter—asking why he had specifically mentioned a ignore those siren voices and base their decisions on 50p minimum price for alcohol. Although I agree, and evidence and the real world—and evidence and the real Conservative Members agree, that pricing and taxation world alone. can play a role in market changes, there appears to be no real— 3.56 pm Stephen Hesford: I do not mind not being mentioned Anne Milton (Guildford) (Con): I congratulate the in the hon. Lady’s tour d’horizon of hon. Members’ Health Committee Chairman, the right hon. Member speeches. My speech clearly did not have any effect on for Rother Valley (Mr. Barron). It was a privilege to her, and that is a matter for her; I can take it. However, I serve under his chairmanship when I was elected to the asked her a question— House, and I know that he achieved a personal ambition with the robust report on smoking in enclosed public Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman places. He was right about that issue, and he is right in must not have a second attempt at his speech now; I his ambition to make a similar impact on alcohol. trust that he will put a question. However, I differ from him on some of the ways in which it can be achieved. Stephen Hesford: Last week, the hon. Member for I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) said in terms, in a Delegated Legislation Poole (Mr. Syms) on highlighting the wider context of Committee, that the Conservative party positively supported the debate and, in particular, the issue of access to minimum pricing, and that that was itsr policy. There alcohol: “Your granny’s got a bottle in her cupboard,” was an exchange about that, and he was absolutely that’s for sure. He made an important point and mentioned clear. In my speech, I asked the hon. Lady to clarify the value and increasingly important role that parents whether that is the Conservative position, and I think and parenting plays. He mentioned also the drinks that it would help this debate if she could come straight industry and those who are more responsible than to that point now. others. In that vein, I pay tribute to the licensees in my constituency, who have gone to considerable lengths to Anne Milton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his be responsible. Many have joined in with efforts to intervention. I certainly meant no offence to him in not ensure that people can go out and have a good time in mentioning him specifically. His speech added to the Guildford while also maintaining law and order and not debate, and I am sure that the Minister will make due letting things get out of control. reference to it and right the balance should any offence The hon. Member for Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins), have been caused. I have to admit that while he was on who is not in his place, talked at length about foetal his feet I had to leave the Chamber for a comfort break, alcohol syndrome, and about the licensing laws. Foetal so I did not hear his entire contribution. I will certainly alcohol syndrome has not had much of a mention, and deal with his point as I progress, but I have only just I do not think that it was mentioned in the report, but it started. I do not want to disappoint him with the belief has been a long-standing problem and continues to be a that I will go on for too long, but I have a few other serious one. As the hon. Gentleman said, it is about things to say. I did not attend the Delegated Legislation damage that women are doing to their children, perhaps Committee that he mentions, so I have no specific unwittingly and unknowingly. They may be unaware of knowledge of what my hon. Friend the Member for the impact of alcohol. Reigate (Mr. Blunt) said. I can, however, ensure that I The hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor) made clarify the Conservative position. a valiant effort to scare us. His description of tubes was As I said, my hon. Friend the Member for South quite effective for some of us, and I congratulate also Cambridgeshire has not had a response from the CMO. the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete We agree that pricing can have a significant role to play Wishart) on his real passion. I do not profess to know a in reducing alcohol consumption, but there is a lack of great deal about Scottish politics, but I have learned a empirical evidence about the effects in terms of market little more today.The hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan) changes, the economic well-being of low-income groups, and many others mentioned the significant issues for and illegal trade. If we really want to tackle alcohol, it is pubs, given the huge discrepancy between their prices very important that the measures taken are evidence-based. and the supermarkets’, and the impact of that on pubs. If not, we risk bringing Government action into disrepute, I know, and I think we all know now, that my hon. having no real impact on alcohol consumption and, yet Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) feels again, being left with the negative impact of the unintended very strongly about this issue—about the nanny state consequences of ill-thought-out legislation. 355 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 356

Our debate started with the Chairman of the Health might go home and have a couple of glasses of wine Committee giving us a run-down of the figures, and it because it is a great deal cheaper. may be timely to remind ourselves of a few of the Both the Government and Opposition Members want particularly striking ones. In 1947, we drank 3.5 litres of to increase the price of alcohol, because we believe it alcohol per head in this country; now, the figure is well will have an impact. The question, as hon. Members over 9.5 litres. The British Medical Association believes have said, is what is the most effective way of doing that we have some of the heaviest levels of alcohol that. We must consider what we need in place to get the consumption in Europe; if that were causing us no outcomes that we want. We believe in a targeted approach harm, there would be no problem. A 2009 survey found via an increase in duty on problem drinks—alcopops that young people are drinking twice as much as they and super-strength beers—and a ban on the sale of did in 1990, and that a third of men and a fifth of alcohol below cost price. Similar approaches have succeeded women are drinking 21 units per week. in reducing the consumption of problem drinks in Alcohol policy has always been difficult for the Australia and Germany, and Alcohol Concern has stated: Government to deal with. The hon. Member for Wyre “Strong cider, strong beer and alcopops are some of the most Forest (Dr. Taylor) took us back probably as far as I irresponsibly priced and problematic alcoholic drinks available in have ever heard any Member take us in describing how Britain. Measures of this kind would be a positive step towards deeply ingrained alcohol is not only in our British making them much less attractive to teenagers. It may also culture but in causing the problems that we now see. It encourage production of low alcohol products, increasing consumer is accepted in a way that other mind-altering drugs are choice for responsible drinkers.” not, and successive Governments have had to strike a In support of an increase in duty rather than minimum difficult balance, encouraging people to drink responsibly pricing, I shall quote the Health Committee’s report. It while not punishing the responsible drinker. I do not states: believe we have got that balance right, and there is a “The main case for higher sales duties rather than minimum heavy cost to that failure. prices is that minimum prices would lead to higher profits for producers and vendors of alcohol, assuming that any fall in sales The president of the Royal College of Physicians would be more than offset by the increase in revenue from each estimates that there are 30,000 to 40,000 deaths a year unit. In contrast, a rise in duty would avoid this, producing not because of alcohol, and liver cirrhosis increased more additional profits but extra money for the Exchequer. A rise in than fivefold between 1970 and 2006. The number of taxes can also be justified, as we found in Scotland, on the basis of under-18s hospitalised for alcohol misuse has increased recovering the costs imposed by alcohol…the duty on alcohol by nearly 40 per cent. since 2002-03, to more than currently raises far less.” 12,000 in 2007-08, and the number of adults hospitalised I have mentioned other potential advantages of increasing increased by 80 per cent. to nearly 200,000 in the same sales duties, one being that it would allow us to target period. stronger drinks. Minimum pricing is regressive in that We have a big problem, and any doctor will tell us the capital made by increasing the price of alcohol will that it is causing them serious concern. It has a huge go straight to the supermarkets and shops that sell the impact on the NHS, and it is estimated that alcohol alcohol. Instead, why not tax the alcohol so that the misuse costs the NHS about £2.5 billion every year. At a profits of any increase can, as the report says, go back time when we are looking to get the most out of the to the Government to help to balance the books or—in NHS, getting to grips with alcohol abuse will not only an ideal world—for reinvestment in alcohol prevention save lives and prevent illness but save millions of pounds and treatment? that we can reinvest in improving services. The debate on minimum pricing might in any case be The link between alcohol and crime is well established. entirely immaterial, owing to a recent ruling from the According to the British crime survey of 2008-09, the European Court of Justice. Will the Minister clarify victims of nearly half of all violent crimes believe the this? The court decided that minimum pricing legislation offender to have been under the influence of alcohol. on cigarettes in France, Austria and Ireland infringed That is a staggering figure. Alcohol misuse has an European law. According to the European Commission, impact on countless family breakdowns, mental health that legislation illness, poor sexual health and even obesity—it is the “undermines the freedom of manufacturers and importers to cornerstone of poor public health in the UK. For every determine the maximum retail selling prices of their products person who is drinking too much and suffering harm, I and, correspondingly, free competition.” can guarantee that four or five family members or I see no reason why alcohol would be treated differently friends around them will be suffering as a result of their from cigarettes, so I fear that the Government are excessive drinking. behind the curve, which is not a new problem. As the There are clearly many options open to Governments Health Committee report states, for how best to tackle alcohol abuse, and one that the “the response of…Governments” Health Committee has recommended is minimum pricing. has sadly lurched The report highlights evidence showing that a rise in the “from the non-existent to the ineffectual.” price of alcohol is the most effective way of reducing consumption. We have known about the link between The evidence may suggest that minimum pricing is the price and consumption for years, but of course there are answer, but it might not be possible because of that ECJ powerful lobbying groups that are keen to say that ruling. minimum pricing will not reduce alcohol intake. We can There is no doubt that we need radically to change consider our own anecdotal evidence. When I was younger, how we view alcohol and that we need to attack on my parents would have an occasional whisky in the several fronts. On price, licensing and education, we evening and having a bottle of wine was a rare treat. need attitudinal change and, crucially, overarching, funded They could not afford to have one often, but now I public health programmes delivered through ring-fenced 357 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 358

[Anne Milton] licensed premises that open late at night contribute to the additional cost of policing and cleaning up those public health boards, to which the Conservatives are areas, which is significant in some places. We also want committed. We need not only to utilise current legislation, to see tougher penalties for licensees who break the law. but a tougher licensing regime that will give local authorities and the police much stronger powers over licensing, Mr. McGovern: Does the hon. Lady agree that the including the ability to remove licences from, or to laws are already in place, certainly in Scotland, to refuse to grant them to, any premises that are causing address the problem and we do not need new laws? A problems. publican or a member of bar staff should not serve The hon. Member for Luton, North mentioned what someone who has obviously had too much to drink. the Health Committee report says about the Licensing People also have to be 18 before they can go into a pub Act 2003. It states: or supermarket and buy drink. “The worst fears of the Act’s critics were not realised, but Incidentally, the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip neither was the DCMS’s naive aspiration of establishing cafe Davies) said earlier, if I understood him correctly, that society: violence and disorder have remained at similar levels, he is a teetotaller and was shocked to see sex in films although they have tended to take place later at night. The when he was 18. When I was 18, I was looking for sex in principle of establishing democratic control of licensing was not films. realised: the regulations governing licensing gave the licensing authorities and local communities too little control over either issuing or revoking licences, as ACPO indicated. KPMG examined Anne Milton: The hon. Gentleman is right that one of the alcohol industry’s voluntary code and found it had failed.” the problems is that we have a lot of legislation that is not used or enforced. We do however need to change Mr. Stewart Jackson: My hon. Friend touches on an the Licensing Act 2003. One of the most important important point. The regulations governing licensing changes would be to allow more say by local residents. consultation under the 2003 Act are very prescriptive At the moment, we have a mismatch between the night-time for local councillors and Members of Parliament, as I economy, and licensees who are not responsible, and have found. She is also right to talk about the product local residents. In some areas, the licensees are very pricing within individual establishments. We still have responsible—I do not want to tar everyone with the offers such as “Men pay, women drink free,” and “Drink same brush—but we need more democratic accountability as much as you like for £4.99,” which is not acceptable. on this issue. We need to take rigorous action using the existing This is a massive issue in terms of its impact on legislation. health and in its complexity. The danger with a debate such as this is that anyone who is watching or who reads Anne Milton: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. the report in Hansard tomorrow will think that we have He is right, and any Member of Parliament who has a not addressed huge chunks of it. We have not touched night-time economy in their constituency will know in detail on the issues for people with mental health that we are not really getting to grips with that continuing problems who have a dual diagnosis with alcohol and/or issue. It is a complex problem. This debate, especially drug abuse. We have not touched on the issue of alcohol- towards the end, has focused on price and reducing related violence towards children, to which the Committee consumption, but it is naive to think that it is that refers in the report. There is a considerable amount of simple. As we know from smoking, changing people’s domestic violence towards children, women and, indeed, attitudes takes a long time and one’s approach has to be men that is associated with alcohol. very targeted. We have not touched upon the need to improve our I shall give hon. Members more of an idea of what a children’s education. There is a lot of talk about children’s Conservative Government would do. We would ban physical health, obesity, sport in schools and making retailers from selling alcohol below cost price. We want children less obese, but there is not a great deal of talk also local councils and the police to have a much clearer about children’s mental and emotional health and well- right of veto over new licence applications and the being. We have not talked about the need to improve ability to amend existing licence applications. We want young people’s self-esteem and raise their confidence. to remove the presumption in favour of granting licensing Why do they go out on the town and fill their throats, applications and to give councils the power to control stomachs and heads with alcohol? It is about self-esteem the development or expansion of licensed premises that and how they view themselves. We need to ensure that have a negative impact on local residents. We also want young people grow up with a strong sense of themselves, to give the police stronger powers over applications and and with the high self-esteem, confidence and skills give clearer guidance to the courts about when an necessary to make good decisions about themselves and appeal against a council decision can be allowed. We their health. They have to deal with complex issues, and would give councils the power to remove licences from they need the help, support and education to give them individuals and premises that are breaking the law. the skills to make those complex decisions. Importantly, we would also allow elected representatives That is particularly hard because one of the joys of and community representatives—ward councillors, school being a young person—I am not old enough yet to have governors and residents associations—to make forgotten—is the wonderful immortality that one feels. representations or objections to a licensing application That same point is made in discussions on sexual health. and to initiate a review of a problematic venue. Licensing I listen to health professionals saying, “Young people authorities need the explicit power to control the closing need to be more responsible”, but young people love time and licensed capacity of premises by changing the being irresponsible! It is hard to make young people relevant statutory guidance, and we also want to introduce behave responsibly when, to some extent, they are revelling a simple mechanism to allow local councils to make in that sense of growing freedom and irresponsibility. 359 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 360

So we have to be very sophisticated and clever about 2005 to 12.3 units in 2008. However, it is too early to how we change those attitudes and get young people draw any conclusions or comfort from those figures, not to go out on the town and do what all their friends although given that alcohol use has steadily increased are doing. They need a very sophisticated set of skills, for the past half-century, any indication that changing so we need to get this right. Government action will attitudes to alcohol are translating into lower consumption focus on stopping drinking among those who are already is nevertheless a welcome sign. drinking too much, but at the same time we must get This Government were the first seriously to consider those public health messages right. If we are serious alcohol as a public health issue. We published the first about improving the nation’s public health, we must alcohol strategy in 2004, which we updated in 2007, view reducing alcohol misuse as one of the key drivers based on three main approaches, the first of which was of change. to inform and educate people about units, the NHS Absolutely no one in the House wants to prevent guidance on alcohol, and the health risks of regularly people from having a good night out or a friendly drink. drinking too much. Secondly, the strategy sought to However, we must ensure that the Government send a create an environment in which the healthy choice is an clear message to the public about the damaging effects easier choice. Thirdly, we sought to deploy the experience, that the abuse of alcohol can have. I am not convinced capabilities and professionalism of the NHS to provide that minimum pricing is the right approach; we need a treatment and support to those who have lost their targeted approach, including targeted duty. Furthermore, health or happiness to alcohol, and also to help to as I have said, it is crucial that funding for public health prevent that in the first place. is ring-fenced and delivered by public health boards, We have made great strides in educating and informing about which my hon. Friend the Member for South people, which a number of right hon. and hon. Members Cambridgeshire has talked. Public health boards would have mentioned. Earlier this year we launched the Alcohol work with local authorities, the police and all the other Effects campaign, graphically bringing home the truth local players, because to improve the public’s health, about the reality of alcohol misuse. Our approach is including in terms of alcohol consumption, we also about working with people to change attitudes, just as need social and economic change. we did on seatbelts and smoking. Across Government, our “Know your limits” and “Why let drink decide?” 4.23 pm campaigns have gathered significant attention and made The Minister of State, Department of Health (Gillian the messages about health and the consequences of Merron): I thank the Chair of the Health Select Committee, alcohol real for many adults and young people. my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley There is evidence that those messages are getting (Mr. Barron), and all Committee members for the detailed through. According to the ONS, nine in 10 adults are and thorough inquiry, to which I was pleased to give aware that alcohol is measured in units, while three in evidence. We are grateful for the Committee’s report. It four have heard of daily limits and half know their recognises the scale and complexity of the challenge personal recommended maximum. Awareness is even that we face. We are looking closely at the report and its higher among those drinking more heavily. On recognition recommendations and, as my right hon. Friend of the units system, I was interested in the support acknowledged, I have confirmed that we will be responding given by the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms), who is shortly. I am glad that he has welcomed the tone of my no longer in his place. However, I regret that the initial comments in public on the report. Conservative policy would be to change the units system I have listened carefully to the varying views and and to seek a new awareness of centilitres. That would be opinions of right hon. and hon. Members. We have had misguided, given the progress that we have already made. a colourful and extensive debate, and I will attempt to We are also taking action to create the right environment pick out the main themes. First, however, I shall set out around alcohol, which means ensuring that it is possible the Government’s position. We take seriously the harm to choose an alternative. For example, the Government to health that alcohol may bring, and we have in place a will now introduce a requirement to make free tap water comprehensive and evidence-based plan to tackle that available in bars, pubs and clubs, and to ensure that harm, to provide information to make healthy choices smaller measures are available, which a number of right easier and to support those who need help through the hon. and hon. Members have welcomed today. Taking national health service. Yes, we can improve, yes, we action will mean doing everything that we can to cut want to continue to do so, and yes, the Committee’s out the practices that drive excessive drinking, as we report will assist us in doing so. have also heard in this debate. That means, as the Home As today’s debate has generally confirmed, there is no Secretary recently announced, banning the most one action that we could take to change overnight our irresponsible promotions from next month and enforcing culture or the situation in which we find ourselves. age verification. I was glad to present awards at the Best Action on alcohol requires close working by industry, Bar None evening in Lincoln recently, which celebrated community services and Departments across Government. best practice across the city in encouraging responsible It also requires a careful balance in protecting the rights drinking when people are out and about. and the health of individuals and communities. Customers need to be presented with the key facts Recent figures show that we are making a difference when making a choice. We will follow through on the on alcohol consumption and awareness. The latest studies recently launched consultation on labelling by doing suggest that awareness of the units system, the NHS whatever is necessary to get industry to co-operate on daily guidelines and the health risks is definitely increasing. this important matter. Figures from the Office for National Statistics indicate In response to points made by my hon. Friend the that overall consumption might be levelling off. Average Member for Luton, North (Kelvin Hopkins) and the weekly alcohol consumption fell from 14.3 units in hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor), the options— 361 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 362

[Gillian Merron] out other voices. We continue to work closely with a wide range of other partners, including academics and whether voluntary or mandatory—will cover the issuing members of the medical profession and the third sector. of a pregnancy drinking warning. We very much want Most recently, we have worked closely on the Alcohol to see that happen, and will consider the best way of Effects campaign with the British Heart Foundation, delivering it, to improve on what we have now. Under Cancer Research UK and the Stroke Association, and I the current voluntary agreement, some 40 per cent. of am grateful to those organisations for their contributions. labels already include such a warning, but we want to go There has been a great deal of discussion on the a lot further. important matter of pricing. Let me say at the outset Kelvin Hopkins: As I said earlier, we need public that we believe pricing does matter, and we are already information notices in all licensed establishments—and, taking action on cheap alcohol. As I said earlier, we perhaps, public information films—to point out that have used the mandatory code to ban the most irresponsible alcohol damages foetuses. and harmful promotions from next month. They include the “all you can drink” offers, the dentists chairs, free Gillian Merron: My hon. Friend rightly draws my drinks for women, and speed-drinking possibilities. attention to that proposal. The important thing is to get Action on alcohol pricing must of course be based on the information to the right people in the right way, in evidence. I note that the Select Committee report pays order to make a difference. We are constantly striving to tribute to the quality of some of the Department’s find new ways of doing that. The consultation on analysis, such as the review of the effects of alcohol labelling is particularly important, because it reflects pricing and promotion in 2008. The Home Office is the fact that insufficient progress has been made under researching the links between pricing, crime and commerce, the voluntary agreement and that we want to go further. and we are particularly concerned about the sale of The hon. Members for Poole and for Shipley (Philip alcohol at below the cost price, which has been raised a Davies), and my hon. Friends the Members for Dartford number of times in the debate. (Dr. Stoate) and for Luton, North talked about advertising and sponsorship in different ways. The Advertising Of course price is an issue and it is one that we Standards Authority has recently consulted on the rules continue to explore. I believe that a serious discussion on alcohol advertising as part of a more general review, on pricing is important because I want to ensure that we and it will publish its response in the coming months. do what works. Protecting children and young people is rightly a priority for the Government, but we also need to find evidence Mr. Grogan: The Minister mentions below-cost selling; for any changes and ensure the proportionality of any would banning such selling be a possible first measure? controls. The ASA is considering a range of issues that will be relevant to this debate. Gillian Merron: It is too early to be drawn on an exact My hon. Friend the Member for Dartford talked response, but I want to assure my hon. Friend that we about the sponsorship of TV programmes by alcohol understand the difficulty it creates and the need to companies. That is already covered by the broadcast address it. We are looking for the most appropriate way code of advertising practice, and it is subject to the to deal with it, and the same applies to minimum same rules that we have brought in on TV advertising. pricing. I respect the views of a number of right hon. For example, alcohol advertising cannot take place and hon. Members on that. alongside programmes that are popular with children. Specifically on minimum pricing, we want to know The sponsorship of sports events is self-regulated in a more about the impact it would have on the industry, similar fashion through the Portman Group. We will about the effects of regional variations, the effect on keep all the rules on alcohol advertising under review, particular social groups and individuals. It is also the and we will be interested to see the results of the case that we do not want to penalise those who drink consultation. responsibly, particularly at a time of economic difficulty. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, North and The issue is one that we look at, but it is not one on the hon. Member for Poole raised the issue of our which we have reached the same conclusion as the relationship with the industry, and I know that the Select Committee. Select Committee report identifies that as a matter of concern. I do not believe, however, that the Government Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): When both are unduly influenced by the alcohol industry. Our parties tackled the problem of drink-driving, we attacked relationship is rather different: it is understood that the the drivers and said that their licences would be forfeited Government set policy, and also that, when possible, we if they carried on with that behaviour, and they changed. work constructively with the industry to ensure that it What is the appropriate thing to say to people who meets its responsibilities. If we did not work together in abuse alcohol and behave violently or in an antisocial that way, we would be denying the industry the responsibility way in our town and city centres at night? Surely that that it knows it has in respect of the effects of its should be the target of our debate. products. The hon. Member for Poole was keen to point out that the industry had recently agreed to fund the Gillian Merron: That is an interesting point, but if the Drinkaware Trust, an independent charity that highlights right hon. Gentleman had been in his place throughout the dangers of alcohol misuse. The industry has committed the debate, he would have heard a whole range of to paying £5 million a year for the next three years to discussion points. I would say that pricing took up a support the trust. very substantial amount of our time, and that is what I Let me make it clear, however, that having a working am seeking to address now. I have already said several relationship with the industry does not preclude us times that no one single measure can be taken to deal from taking action when necessary; nor does it drown with the problems that the right hon. Gentleman identifies. 363 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 364

Alcohol duty was mentioned by the hon. Member for The response from the NHS has been impressive. Two Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), my right thirds of PCTs have adopted alcohol as a local indicator, hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley and my hon. including 46 of the 51 PCTs with the highest rates of Friends the Members for Wirral, West and for Selby alcohol-related hospital admissions. We have also created (Mr. Grogan), to whose role as chairman of the all-party the alcohol improvement programme, which gives front-line beer group I pay tribute. I have been pleased to be a part staff the tools and guidance that they need to assess of its previous efforts. local needs and commission effective services. I will of course raise the issue of alcohol duty with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. I am sure the Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): House is well aware that alcohol duty rate decisions are Has the Minister considered the suggestion that people indeed a matter for him and that the primary purpose of admitted to accident and emergency departments as a duty is to raise public funds for public finance purposes. result of excessive consumption should be billed for the It is also worth saying, however, that the decisions made service that they receive? in this regard draw on advice from other Departments, including the Department of Health in respect of the Gillian Merron: We do not think that that would be a health harms from drinking and the Department for useful way of dealing with the challenge that we face, or Children, Schools and Families in respect of the harms that it would be in the spirit of the national health caused to children, and so forth. As I recently mentioned service. I am therefore unlikely to pursue the hon. to the Select Committee, we have been pushing hard to Gentleman’s suggestion. ensure that health impact assessments are better considered across all Departments when decisions are being made. Mrs. Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): Another issue The hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton) asked that arises, particularly in A and E departments, is a question about the European Court of Justice ruling violence against staff, often fuelled by alcohol. There on minimum pricing. There is no clear line from the have been precious few prosecutions of people who judgment on the implications for alcohol, but I am have assaulted staff. Has the Minister any plans to happy to keep the hon. Lady informed and will let her strengthen hospitals’ powers? know of any further developments. Mr. McGovern: When my hon. Friend has her discussions Gillian Merron: Abuse of staff, whether physical or with the Chancellor, will she ask him not to go down the otherwise, is always unacceptable. We will continue to road that the Scottish Executive seem determined to take all possible measures to tackle it, working with follow? Will she ask him not to raise the price of local NHS trusts. cheaper alcohol to take it out of the price range of The hon. Member for Wyre Forest made an important people on low incomes while freezing the prices of more point about the role the NHS can play in helping to expensive alcohol such as Scotch whisky, thus ensuring prevent health problems caused by alcohol by means of that the rich can still afford to drink but the poor identification and brief advice. I am pleased to say that cannot? that is happening increasingly throughout the country. Gillian Merron: What I am sure the Chancellor knows It is well known that the earlier we can identify the about are all matters Scottish in this connection, but I people who drink too much, and the sooner we can will certainly raise with him the points that have been provide even brief advice from GPs and hospitals, the made today. more we can help people to reduce their drinking and I realise that there are concerns about licensing. That improve their health, and in the end, of course, save is why we listened and created new powers for local lives. My Department is strongly encouraging the roll-out councillors, which came into effect on 29 January 2010. of such interventions through training and a directed Those powers will make it quicker and easier for councillors and enhanced service that we have funded to the tune of to tackle problem premises by calling for a review to about £8 million a year. It provides what could be restrict or remove a licence without having to wait for described as a tap on the shoulder when people are at police or local residents to complain. Local authorities their most receptive, and is increasingly delivering excellent already have extensive powers, but they are not always results. fully used. The Home Office has provided guidance on how to use the powers available. Kelvin Hopkins: I thank my hon. Friend for giving The NHS can play a role in influencing decisions by way yet again. On this point about the health service working closely with the police and councils. It can also and intervention, do health services, maternity services provide support for those who need it. When alcohol and GPs regularly and routinely give advice to mothers use develops into alcohol abuse, the NHS must be ready who are seeking to get pregnant or who are pregnant to help people to get better and get back on track. not to drink during pregnancy? Understanding how local provision can change to match local needs means much smarter monitoring and better Gillian Merron: Indeed they do. commissioning. When I visited the Lincolnshire drug In drawing the debate to a conclusion, let me say that and alcohol team in Newland, Lincoln, the staff and the scale of the challenge before us is clear. We know service users told me that Government investment had that there have been generational increases in consumption transformed the service, and I am sure that many Members and harm, with 1 million of us regularly drinking more throughout the House have heard similar accounts. than we should. Hospital admissions caused by drink Two years ago, we created the first ever incentive for are rising and the latest estimates suggest that alcohol primary care trusts to prioritise alcohol services through costs the NHS some £2.7 billion and causes at least the vital signs indicator, which tracks hospital admissions. 9,000 deaths every year. 365 Alcohol10 MARCH 2010 Alcohol 366

Anne Milton: I thank the Minister for giving way. I alcohol, and that will be to the general good. Such types wanted to leave this intervention to the end, because I of duty have hardly moved for years, so I thank them wanted to see whether she would mention public health. for their support. Does she not accept that public health budgets have I have two further points to make. First, the hon. been raided to fill short-term budgetary deficits? Until Member for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor), who is a member we ring-fence public money and do things differently on of the Committee, and two other speakers who intervened public health, we will not make any real progress. on the Minister, mentioned A and E. The hon. Gentleman said that he had had some students who had said that Gillian Merron: No, I do not accept that. My whole there should be a “three strikes and you’re out” policy in speech has been devoted to the improvement of public A and E. If people go to A and E for a third time with health. This Government have invested more in the an alcohol-related problem that has effectively been national health service than any Government and will self-generated, the A and E should think about charging. continue our commitment to do so. We will have an I am not there yet on that point, but if hon. Members NHS that is not only good at helping people to get over look at the Library note for this debate they will see that ill health but one that will continue to prevent ill health. binge-drinking or misuse of alcohol costs the national That is the subject to which we have devoted ourselves health service and therefore us as taxpayers £1.7 billion today. a year. The note states: We have heard many interesting and varied arguments “Around 70 per cent. of A&E attendances between midnight and I commend right hon. and hon. Members for the and 5am on weekend nights are alcohol-related.” tone and content of their speeches and the range of I do not think that my parents’ generation argued for a issues that they have brought to today’s debate. The one national health service for it to become a comfort to thing that we agree is that changing the drinking culture people who act irresponsibly and expect taxpayers to in our country is not something that we will achieve pick them up off the street and pick up the bill for doing overnight. It will not be simple to achieve and we will so. My hon. Friend the Minister will have heard me say not achieve it by a single approach. these things before, and I say them as an individual, not By bringing together Government, communities, the necessarily as the Chair of the Health Committee. third sector and industry we can educate and inform, The second point concerns EU competition policy, create the right environment around alcohol and support which has been discussed by Front Benchers on both those whose lives it has blighted. I believe that we are on sides. We looked at that issue in relation to introducing the way and that the Health Committee’s report will minimum prices per unit of alcohol, and we discovered assist us still further. that people often use it as an argument against minimum pricing. Clearly, the Scottish Government wanted to 4.47 pm introduce minimum pricing in Scotland, but it does not Mr. Barron rose— look as though they can convince their Parliament to do so at this stage. They have considered the issue thoroughly Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I shall call the right hon. and they strongly disagreed on this point, as our report Gentleman to speak as the Chair of the Committee, but states: he is aware of the time constraints that we are now “The Scottish Government, which has examined this issue under. thoroughly, strongly disagrees and EU Competition Law does provide for a public health exemption. This exemption has been Mr. Barron: I am indeed, Mr. Deputy Speaker. successfully used by the French Government to ban alcohol advertising and sponsorship in certain circumstances”— With the leave of the House, I want to thank all the people who have taken part in the debate on the Select indeed, the Committee took evidence on that in France— Committee’s report. Someone said just a few minutes “winning a number of cases in the” ago that we have not debated all aspects of the report. European Court of Justice The report was not about finding solutions: if there “which were brought by the alcohol industry.” were simple solutions to binge drinking and ill health owing to alcohol, we would not have those problems in So there are public health exemptions from EU competition our society. Clearly, we have tried to open up the whole law. If Front Benchers are looking at that issue, I say to issue. them that we should not shy away from making the changes if there could be a public health gain. I want to thank all Members who have taken part in the debate. It is true that the pricing of alcohol has been I was convinced by the evidence in the Sheffield mentioned up by practically everybody. There might report. Clearly, not everyone in this debate has been have been a consensus on minimum pricing—that is a convinced by it, but this issue will not go away. At some start—but we think that even if a minimum price per stage we will have to take action, possibly on pricing, to unit of alcohol was introduced, other duties should be restrict the availability of alcohol and to lower levels of considered at the same time. The representatives on consumption among many of our fellow citizens because both Front Benches mentioned considering duty as a those levels are harmful to their individual health. means of encouraging people to drink lesser strength Question deferred (Standing Order No. 54 (4)). 367 10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 368

DEPARTMENT FOR TRANSPORT transport sector as a whole, and particularly in road transport. Those changes need to be very wide ranging, Road Users (Taxes and Charges) and must relate to issues such as new technology, alternative fuels, and investment in a much more integrated public [Relevant Documents: The Sixth Report from the Transport transport system. Committee, Session 2008–09, on Taxes and charges on road users, HC 103, and the Government response, HC 995, A key element of our report is the confirmation that Session2008–09.] taxation and charges on motorists engender a high level Motion made, and Question proposed, of mistrust between drivers and the Government. It is very unclear what the cost of motoring is, and there are That, for the year ending with 31 March 2010, for expenditure by the Department for Transport— unanswered questions about exactly how much is raised from motor taxation and how it is applied. Our inquiry (1) further resources, not exceeding £606,268,000, be authorised for use as set out in HC 257, looked at that specifically, because up to now it is an area about which the Government have not made the (2) a further sum, not exceeding £257,734,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund to meet the costs as so information explicit. We found that we could identify set out, and £48 billion per annum that is raised by taxes and charges (3) limits as so set out be set on appropriations in aid.—(Lyn on motorists, £30 billion of which comes from specific Brown.) motor taxes such as fuel duty and vehicle excise duty. It is a matter of regret that that information has not been Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With this we made available previously in any simple form. Moreover, will consider the following estimate: the Government have not made clear exactly how the money raised is spent. Indeed, the various claims that have been made at different times have only added to HM REVENUE AND CUSTOMS the confusion and misunderstanding about how the That, for the year ending with 31 March 2010, for expenditure money is spent. by HM Revenue and Customs— (1) further resources, not exceeding £242,822,000, be authorised For example, it has been claimed that fuel duty is at for use as set out in HC 257, once a tool to reduce carbon emissions, a source of (2) a further sum, not exceeding £212,951,000, be granted to general revenue, and a means to fund transport investment. Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund to meet the costs as so The Government’s attempts to increase VED bands set out, and retrospectively by describing the duty as a green tax (3) limits as so set out be set on appropriations in aid. brought environmental taxes into disrepute. We call for much greater transparency about exactly what is raised 4.52 pm and how the money is applied. Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): What is the real cost of motoring? Every year, £9 billion I am pleased to open this debate. I shall focus on the key is spent on maintaining and improving the road system. issues identified in the report of the Select Committee That amounts to 41 per cent. of total transport expenditure, on Transport, which considers the impact that road yet it is clearly much less than the amount raised by charges have on mobility, congestion and sustainability. taxation and charges on motorists. The actual cost of By focusing on issues that are as yet unresolved, the motoring must include externalities such as the cost of report draws attention to key areas that deserve more policing on the roads, as well as health costs and debate. environmental impacts. Some of those items can have The report and its topic come under the remit of the financial amounts attached to them so that we can see Department for Transport, but the report’s content also exactly what the costs are, or at least make an assessment involves the Treasury Department. I thank the Minister of them. However, financial costs cannot be applied to for Pensions and the Ageing Society for her important other items, including some of the environmental impacts. contribution to the Committee’s deliberations. I understand These externalities add up to a great deal more than that the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my what motorists believe them to cost. The Department hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Paul Clark), for Transport considers that congestion costs £20 billion will reply today on behalf of the Government as a per annum, and the Eddington report suggested that whole, so I hope that he is able to deal with Treasury-related that amount could rise by £22 billion in 2025 unless issues as well as those that are the direct responsibility major changes are made. The Campaign for Better of the DFT. One of the report’s key conclusions was Transport puts the overall costs of driving at between that the two Departments need to work much more £70 billion and £95 billion a year, so it is clear that there closely on matters of this nature. is a very wide variation in the assessments of exactly There is no doubt that road transport is critical to what the costs of motoring are. Whichever way we our economy. There are 34 million motor vehicles driving choose to assess them, however, it is certain that to on 250,000 miles of road in Great Britain, and 67 per reach a reasonable assessment of the cost of motoring cent. of freight is carried by road, so it is not possible to we have to consider the externalities—the extra costs—that consider transport policy properly without considering motoring imposes on communities and taxpayers as a the great importance of roads. However, there are clear whole. environmental consequences. The transport sector is responsible for 23 per cent. of the UK’s carbon dioxide In its inquiry, the Committee supported the calls emissions, and roads account for 93 per cent. of those. from most motoring organisations that a fair way to The Climate Change Act 2008 requires the Government raise revenue was to base the process on miles driven to reduce CO2 emissions by 80 per cent. by 2050. That rather than on car ownership. For example, people pay means that very significant changes are required in the more fuel duty the more miles that they drive, although 369 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 370

[Mrs. Louise Ellman] As I have mentioned, the Committee has considered impediments to a direct charging scheme—we refer to we could not agree with some of the representations them in our report—and they must certainly be addressed made to us that road taxation should come exclusively before major progress can be made. It is clear that road from that source. pricing and, indeed, local congestion schemes cannot be We also found in our assessment of the costs and implemented without public support. If we were ever in charges imposed on motorists in other European countries any doubt about that, it became clear when we saw the that UK drivers are not taxed overall more than their Government’s reaction to the 1.7 million signatures on continental counterparts, but we recognised that there the Downing street website in opposition to a road-pricing will always be limits on what taxation and charges can scheme. reasonably be raised at any time. Congestion is a key road traffic issue. The CBI repeats Norman Baker: Just to be clear on that point, the the concern in its most recent report that congestion public seemed to oppose a road-pricing scheme that harms business because of delays and a lack of reliability. would take more money from the motorist. If motorists Clearly, congestion also harms the environment. It must had been asked whether they were prepared to accept a be tackled by the Government’s smarter choices agenda, revenue-neutral switch of taxation, the response may which must include better and more integrated public have been entirely different. transport and active road management, but it is also true that direct road charges could be an important part Mrs. Ellman: The hon. Gentleman is right. The question of the package if the difficulties associated with such put on the Downing street website was very simplistic charges could be resolved. The Transport Committee and, indeed, misleading one, but it is also true that the considered that issue previously, and we returned to it public response was so strong that it seems to have briefly in this report. produced the reaction of the Government stating that they would not proceed further with plans for road Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): The Select charging. Our Committee felt that the Government Committee looked at the Dutch scheme for road charging, should be much clearer about what they intend to do which will be introduced over the next few years. Was about road charging, if they look at all the aspects that the hon. Lady attracted to that, and would it solve the we identified in our sixth report and previous ones. problem? Looking at local congestion charges, decided on locally by local authorities, the decisive rejection of the Manchester Mrs. Ellman: Yes, the Committee looked at the Dutch congestion charge scheme, which was part of a much scheme in our deliberations, and we found that there broader scheme involving massive investment in public seemed to be an almost national agreement for a road- transport in the Greater Manchester area, seems to charging scheme in Holland. We saw that that was have deterred local authorities from introducing their accepted, which was very encouraging, and that the own scheme. London may well continue to be the only Dutch equivalent of the AA was actively involved in the major city with a significant congestion charge, but development of the scheme from its beginning, which although the scheme operated in central London has seemed to be a way to make real progress. However, we made that a more pleasant place to be by reducing the registered differences in how taxation on motoring is number of vehicles entering the central zone, it is worrying levied in Holland. For example, there is a very large that the costs of the scheme account for almost 50 per charge on the purchase of vehicles in Holland, but its cent. of its revenue. The costs of implementation would proposed charging scheme would do away with that have to be borne in mind by any other local authority major charge and put a charge on the use of vehicles considering introducing a scheme of its own. instead. We recognise not only the great progress made in Holland and want similar progress to be made here, One way forward might be to consider voluntary but the significant difference between that country and pricing schemes, such as the one trialled in Oregon in the United Kingdom. the USA, where motorists could agree voluntarily to move from paying road taxation to paying according to Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): I am interested in that how much they travelled, with access to entertainment, observation. There is indeed some support for road information and other services linked to participation pricing in Holland—hon. Members might find that in the scheme. Perhaps the Government or other surprising—but given the large charge on vehicles at organisations could consider that way forward. purchase, one would expect motorists to oppose road The transport innovation fund was introduced by the pricing because they have already purchased their cars. Government as an important way to deal with congestion Support for road pricing might be even higher therefore and, in its other strand, to improve productivity, but in those countries where there is no such purchase tax. one of the problems in the fund’s congestion strand was the requirement on a local authority to impose a congestion Mrs. Ellman: The introduction of a charging scheme charge before it could access the fund. Our Committee must always relate to the taxation system in the country stated that we wanted the funds made available for concerned. One of the key aspects of the Dutch scheme public transport through the TIF to remain available— was that motorists would consider the fact that they indeed, we were worried that because of non-take-up of might pay the same, or even less, for the motoring that that fund, the money would go back to the Treasury, they undertake than the fixed charges that they were which we certainly did not want to happen—but we paying previously. So it is always important to consider wanted the Government to change the rules, so that such things in the round and to involve, as the Dutch local authorities could use the scheme to reduce congestion did, the major motoring organisations in developing the and to bring innovative new ideas into play without tax proposals. being forced to impose a congestion charge scheme. 371 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 372

The Government have responded, albeit perhaps a Transport is essential for individuals and for our little belatedly—in the past couple of weeks, in fact—by economy. How it is funded will be increasingly under announcing that they will now phase out the TIF and the spotlight, particularly as all of us consider how we replace it with a much broader urban challenge fund, can best take our country out of recession without which would be implemented after the next comprehensive damaging the economy, damaging our services or creating spending review and which would not require local unemployment. Addressing congestion and environmental authorities to impose a congestion charge to access the issues in an equitable way, without damaging essential funds available. We do not yet know the full details of mobility, requires a closer link between transport and that fund or exactly how it would operate, but it looks Treasury policies. That relates to incentives to produce very promising. more efficient vehicles and to develop alternative fuels, as well as to invest in integrated public transport. Mr. Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Is it not the case that the Government are still arm-twisting local Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): Will the hon. Lady authorities? For example, the council in Nottingham comment on the proposal from Lord Adonis for extremely has been told that it will not get access to certain funds fast trains to go through the west midlands? Does she unless it introduces a workplace parking levy. Is not think the potential cost of that is within the framework that to be deplored? of resources likely to be available as a consequence of the financial recession and the Budget deficit? Mrs. Ellman: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. It is unfortunate if the Government put Mrs. Ellman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his undue pressure on local authorities. I understand that comments. I understand that a more detailed announcement that particular scheme, although controversial locally, about proposals for high-speed rail is imminent, and I was decided by the local authority. In our report we say hope that it contains more information about cost. that where a referendum or consultation is required, However, I certainly support high-speed rail proposals, there should be more explicit rules about how that which are extremely important for the future economy should be carried out. of our country. Government investment in transport has increased If the whole country is to be improved, high-speed dramatically in recent years. It has increased by 70 per rail must support the entire United Kingdom, and one cent. since 1997, which our Committee warmly welcomes. advantage of high-speed rail is that it would allow We are, however, concerned—our concern is reflected in existing track to be used more fully for other purposes: a number of our recent reports—by the disparity in to develop more localised routes and more commuter transport spending in different parts of the country. For routes; and to leave freight with more track access, example, the figures for 2007-08, which are the most which will be extremely important if we are to encourage recent transport spending figures available, show that rail freight. If the hon. Gentleman would care to look at £86 per annum per head was spent on transport in the the Committee’s recent report on investing in rail, he north-west. That is a 16 per cent. increase in spending would see that we want investment in the existing, per head in the north-west on 2002-03. That might classic, rail system, and support for high-speed rail. sound reasonable, until we look at the figures for London I hope that the issues noted in the Committee’s report and the comparable figures for the south-east. In 2007-08 will be helpful in identifying solutions to major issues: £1,658 per head was spent on transport in London—an the importance of transport, financing it and ensuring 80 per cent. increase over 2002-03. We do not want that it continues to be important and equitable for the transport investment in the capital to be reduced. We individual and for the economy of our country. understand that there is a need for greater investment there, but we feel strongly that it is not in the interests of 5.16 pm equity or of raising the GDP of Great Britain as a Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): I welcome the Transport whole that there are such massive disparities in Committee’s report and the presentation given by the spending between London and the south-east, and other Chair, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside regions. We would like to see the Government look (Mrs. Ellman). I agree with her about the economic and again at that and invest much more in the regions social importance of the road network, and I agree that outside the south-east. motorists require a fair deal, involving intervention I said at the beginning of my remarks that the Treasury from the Government as appropriate. The Government’s had important obligations and an important influence response to the challenge of the road network and the on transport policy. One of the issues is the cost of requirements of motorists is to look into congestion, transport. We deal at length with the need to increase emissions, road safety and any other small irritants that the movement of transport, to get cars off the road unduly affect motorists. where that can be achieved, to encourage people to use For example, the abhorrent behaviour of private sector cars less, and to encourage hauliers to use the road less wheel-clamping companies ought to be stopped. My where that can be achieved. hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington Cost and charges are important. According to a (Tom Brake) made an attempt during proceedings on parliamentary answer in response to a question from the Crime and Security Bill, which was recently before the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), between the Commons, to deal with that, but unfortunately, 1997 and 2009 the real cost of motoring declined by Conservative and Labour Members rejected it. There 14 per cent., bus and coach fares increased by 24 per ought to be some agreement on that issue. I also cent. and rail fares increased by 13 per cent. in real acknowledge the Government’s good record on road terms. That is hardly conducive to encouraging a significant safety in recent years. There has been a significant change in car usage. That requires due consideration by decrease in the accident rate, and especially in deaths, the Treasury as well as the Department for Transport. which is very welcome. 373 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 374

[Norman Baker] Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The hon. Gentleman said that the cost of motoring had gone At the centre of the debate, as the Chair of the down by 14 per cent., although I missed the period that Committee said, are charges and taxes, the extent to he was citing. In that context, is it a good or a bad thing which they should be used for purposes other than that the proportion of the petrol price taken as tax has raising money for good causes, such as schools and fallen from 75 per cent. in 1997 to 67 per cent. today? hospitals, and the method by which they are levied. I agree with the Government, who in response to the Norman Baker: The period in question was from Committee’s report said: 1997; I was citing a parliamentary answer, as was the Chair of the Select Committee. To be fair to the “Motoring taxes are primarily revenue-raising instruments, whose principal purpose is to support the public finances and Government, however, a previous answer that I have raise funds for public services. Motoring taxes do also have an received demonstrates that this trend has been ongoing environmental aspect too…Where possible and appropriate, it is for 30 years: it is not a new trend that the Government right for the structure of revenue-raising taxes to support have created, but a long-term trend. I shall talk about environmental objectives.” fuel duty shortly, when I will be able to reply to the hon. That is a sensible policy. The question is whether it is Gentleman in some detail. being applied as effectively as it might be. The Select Committee says in its report:

We sometimes hear from the motoring lobby that “Fuel duty has proven to be an effective way to reduce CO2 motorists pay a huge amount in motoring taxes and get emissions from road vehicles. It influences the amount of fuel very little back, and the Chair of the Committee dealt purchased, the types of vehicles purchased and, to a lesser extent, mileage driven.” with that to some degree. Suffice it to say that if there were an exact in-and-out financial arrangement, there That may be true to some extent, but there are significant would not be enough money for other services such as downsides to using fuel duty as an environmental tax, schools and hospitals, and it is difficult to see how the and as a surrogate for any other measure. Those problems money could be raised for those purposes. We cannot need to be taken into account if we are to come up with charge directly—at least, I hope we cannot—for schools an equitable transport policy that is fair to the motorist and hospitals, so some elements of the economy have to and to society as a whole. First, many people have no provide a net income stream for those aspects that are choice but to use their car. Such a tax is therefore a for the general good. crude mechanism to force up the price of fuel for people, particularly those in rural areas of Scotland, It is also fair to say, as the Chair of the Committee Wales and England, who have no bus service—or perhaps did when she referred to the answer to my written one bus on a Thursday afternoon, if it turns up—and question, that the relative cost of motoring has decreased no railway station, and therefore have to use their cars. by 14 per cent. since 1997, and that the cost of travelling An environmental tax, if we are to apply it sensibly, has by train and by bus has increased over that period. The to secure a change of behaviour. If no such change is cost of air travel has also decreased, so we have the possible, it becomes not an environmental tax but a rather odd arrangement whereby the more carbon one stealth tax that is inequitable for many people. emits, the cheaper it becomes to travel, and the less Secondly, fuel is more expensive, by and large, in carbon one emits, the more expensive it becomes to areas where there is no public transport. It is almost as travel. That is somewhat out of line with the Government’s if a mark-up mechanism is working whereby fuel is kept strategy on carbon reduction. at a lower price in places where people can switch to public transport. London, in particular, is among the Mr. Redwood: Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that cheapest places to buy fuel. For fuel bought in the motorists have to pay not only all the costs of the road highlands—my hon. Friends the Member for Orkney systems that they use but all the costs and subsidies of and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) and for Caithness, the rail system, which have gone up massively under this Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) recently Government? The main reason for the huge regional drew attention to this in an Adjournment debate in imbalance between London and the rest of the country Westminster Hall—there is a premium of up to 13p to is that London has such a big rail network that is so 15p per litre. Pushing up the cost of fuel adversely heavily subsidised. That is not true of the south-east, affects those who are most dependent on it, and have to which gets less, with a smaller increase, than the north-west. pay the most for it. A further issue is that we are, of course, in the Norman Baker: There are two separate issues, one of European Union—we are in a free market in that sense— which is the regional imbalance. I have some sympathy—as and there is the opportunity for fuel tourism if we push does the Select Committee, I think—with the view that prices up too far. The Chair of the Select Committee there has been a regional imbalance as regards how and the Minister will know of the concern among those much is spent on London, in particular, compared with in the haulage industry about the practice of vehicles other parts of the country. However, the thrust of the loading up vast amounts of fuel before they come into right hon. Gentleman’s argument—that motorists are the country, thereby gaining an unfair advantage over paying for the rail network—fails to take account of our own domestic hauliers. other factors such as the need to reduce carbon emissions, the social benefits of investing in rail, and wider Government Mr. Hollobone: The hon. Gentleman makes an important policies of social inclusion. Moreover, investment in the point. The evidence from the Freight Transport Association rail network encourages people to shift from road to is that the costs of operating a 40-tonne articulated rail, thereby freeing up the roads for those who are vehicle are 8 per cent. higher in Great Britain than in obliged to use them, so the motorist also benefits from our near continental neighbours, and 21 per cent. higher investment in the rail network. There has to be a sensible than in east European countries, whose carriers now balance. regularly use the UK road network for that reason. 375 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 376

Norman Baker: I am grateful for that intervention, transport schemes. As the name suggests, it is designed which underlines my point. I say to the Minister in to reduce congestion in a tight urban area. I happen to passing that along with the differential in the price of think that the scheme in London has worked quite well fuel—which, to be fair, I must add has narrowed in by and large, even if the administration of it is not recent times—there is a safety consideration as to whether particularly brilliant. National road pricing seems to it is sensible to have lorries crossing through the tunnel have a different objective, at least to my mind. It is or on ferries carrying vast amounts of inflammable intended first to be more equitable to the motorist—I material. We should consider that from a safety point of will talk later about how that will work—and secondly view, and see whether we can impose a limit on the to reduce carbon emissions from the transport sector. amount of fuel that is brought into this country. That is one of the key challenges that the DFT faces, Another of the motoring taxes is vehicle excise duty. and it has singularly failed to match up to it so far. The Government have made changes to it this year, with Mr. Greg Knight: The hon. Gentleman is making an the introduction of a first-year VED band—in other interesting point. Does he accept that a road pricing words, a showroom tax. They have also expanded VED scheme does not necessarily have to charge everyone from seven to 13 bands. I welcome that, because more who uses the road? It would be perfectly feasible and sophistication of the bands is correct, but I think that workable to have a scheme that set the charge at zero for VED as a concept ought to be time-limited. I say that those who chose to drive at unsociable times of the because I firmly believe that we should tax elements of evening. our activity as a society that are undesirable, rather than those that are neutral or desirable. In my view, owning a Norman Baker: That would indeed be possible. The vehicle is not undesirable. Having been made, it causes parameters of the road-pricing scheme are interesting. I no particular damage. There is a carbon implication in attended a conference on intelligent transport systems its manufacture, but there is no further carbon implication this morning, at which some of the things that could be if it sits in the garage. The damage to the environment achieved by such a scheme were discussed. One of the comes from the use, not the ownership, of the car. It beauties of the new technology being introduced is that therefore seems quite wrong that the ownership of the it enables Governments to make more sophisticated car should be taxed, rather than its usage. Indeed, the policy choices than hitherto. The option that the right Select Committee refers obliquely in its report to the hon. Gentleman describes is certainly one of them. need to tax the use of a vehicle. I should like to see VED I believe that there is a case for introducing a road effectively removed at some stage. The enemy is not the pricing scheme that charges for the use of motorways car but the carbon, and the Government should bear and dual carriageways only, and that charges should that in mind. vary according to emissions—it could also vary by time I am conscious that cars themselves are becoming of day, for the reasons that the right hon. Gentleman much cleaner. A recent report by the Society of Motor gave. It is very important that such a scheme is revenue- Manufacturers and Traders, which I visited the other neutral for the average motorist. If the scheme is seen as day with the hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby a stealth tax, it will be rejected, just as we saw happen in (Mr. Goodwill), demonstrated the significant progress relation to the petition on the No. 10 website. As the that the industry has made in recent years in reducing hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside said, that was a carbon emissions. That is perhaps partly driven by EU misleading petition, but if the scheme were revenue-neutral, targets, but it is also driven by significant innovation it might not be rejected. and good practice in the industry. From memory, I think that there has been a 21 per cent. reduction in Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): emissions per car since 1997. The industry is doing its Does the hon. Gentleman think that motorists will bit to make cars cleaner. consider such a scheme as revenue-neutral if it is combined with the 90 per cent. reduction in the roads budget that The hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside mentioned he is also suggesting? the congestion charge in London. I agree with some of her comments and wish to associate myself with them. Norman Baker: I will happily deal with that subject in In particular, it is concerning that such a high level of a moment, because the elements are linked. The traditional the revenue received is spent on the administration of policy of Conservative Governments, and to some extent the scheme itself. That is not efficient or necessary, and of the current Government, has been to use scarce it is a matter for Transport for London to sort out. public money to build our way out of congestion. That Personally, I do not find TFL a terribly responsive is an attempt to wash away the waves on the beach: it organisation—it tends to be rather arrogant and self-satisfied simply will not work, as evidenced by the increasing on occasions. Another organisation might well have congestion throughout the country. Therefore, we must acted quicker to reduce administrative costs, and I hope find a different way to deal with congestion. that TFL will do so, spurred on by the Transport Charging in a sophisticated way for the road network Committee’s report. is a good way of tackling congestion. It is interesting to I now turn to road pricing, because the logic of the note that business organisations, including the CBI and Select Committee’s position is that it wants such a the British Chambers of Commerce, support the idea of scheme. Pay-as-you-use—or pay-as-you-pollute, if we road pricing if it is introduced in a way that is fair to the prefer to put it in those terms—seems entirely equitable. motorist. That is what I am suggesting. In return for the I want to ensure that there is no confusion in the public introduction of road pricing on motorways and dual mind, as there sometimes is, between congestion charging carriageways, I suggest that the fair, equitable response and national road pricing. They are different things. A for the motorist would first be to abolish VED, which is congestion charge is over a local area, takes money a tax on the ownership of vehicles and therefore unjustified, from the motorist and, typically, invests it in public and secondly to reduce fuel duty. 377 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 378

[Norman Baker] of the road network, which was clear to us right from the start and from the evidence that we received. She There would be no net take from the motorist in the also spoke about the high level of mistrust from motorists scheme that I propose, but the motorist would be and more generally about the way in which charges and encouraged first to make a modal shift to rail, because taxes are levied. I do not intend to cover the same by and large, the motorway and trunk road network ground as my hon. Friend, but I shall address three will parallel the rail network—not exactly, but there is a areas that the Committee considered. close fit. Secondly, motorists would be encouraged to The first was the issue of road pricing, whether by shift from dirtier to cleaner vehicles, because they could urban congestion charging or inter-urban road pricing. save money by doing so. Thirdly and most importantly— It was clear that although such road pricing has many this is a concern to rural Members and, although there attractions, it is by no means a panacea for the problems are none in the Chamber now, to the Scottish of congestion. We looked closely at the situation in Nationalists—such a scheme would be rural-proofed, London and saw the considerable success that congestion because those in remote rural areas where there are no charging has had in the capital. However, as we considered motorways or dual carriageways simply would not pay, the evidence, it was clear that London is very different but they would benefit from the abolition of VED and from any other part of the UK. It is very different from the reduction in fuel duty. other urban areas and, of course, that scheme shows us That would be an equitable policy. It would allow nothing about the prospects for inter-urban road pricing. people to choose their mode of transport and the car London is very densely populated, it had pre-existing they drive, and to save money if they wished. Interestingly, levels of congestion that were unacceptably high and as I said, if such a scheme were revenue-neutral, it the area chosen for congestion charging is one that would be supported by business organisations. I believe enables those who do not need to go into the area to that a British Chambers of Commerce report due out avoid it. The area is also served by high levels of public shortly will reaffirm that. transport, which is not the case in many other urban As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside will be areas—and certainly not public transport that is available aware, Sir Rod Eddington told the Transport Committee for the hours that buses and tubes run in the capital. It in 2009 that road pricing was, for him, “an economic is therefore not an especially good model for elsewhere, no-brainer.”In answer to the hon. Member for Scarborough and it was evident from the experience in Manchester, and Whitby (Mr. Goodwill), the Conservative spokesman, where charging was considered, and the response to the he said that he thought road pricing could reduce new No. 10 petition—misleading though it may have been—that road building by 80 per cent., so there are other advantages the level of public support for road pricing is not of such a scheme for the public purse. I stress that that is sufficient to make it a politically realistic option nationwide not the only policy that the Liberal Democrats wish to or in any urban area in which it has so far been under introduce to benefit the motorist. I was taken by the consideration. That is not to say that it is not an references in the Committee’s report to the proposals in attractive prospect, but its introduction would be politically the Netherlands, which are similar to mine, although fraught. they are made on a slightly different basis. The second area is the discussion of further road The Government response on the question of road building. It was evident to the Committee that further pricing has been vacillating. They have said that they do extensive road building was not a panacea— not want to say very much about the matter for the time being—no doubt until they get past the election—and Mr. Greg Knight: The hon. Gentleman is a valuable they are like a rabbit caught in the headlights. They did member not only of the Transport Committee, but of start a research programme and demonstration project the Procedure Committee, and he is speaking—so far, in February 2009, and in their response to the Committee at any rate—sound common sense. May I take him they say that they are working to further their understanding back, however, to the question of congestion charging of the scheme. It would be helpful if the Minister could schemes? Does he, like me, think that the idea being say exactly what progress has been made by the discussed in Leicester of banning 4x4 vehicles from demonstration project, what issues have been raised, parts of the city centre—it has been publicised in the and when they expect to make a more detailed response local paper, the Leicester Mercury—is bonkers because to the Committee and to Members. it would affect the wealth of people living in the city, and could deter tourists and affect businesses? Does he It is very important to use taxes and charges not agree that it would not be a good idea to pursue that simply to raise money for the public purse for good proposal? causes such as schools and hospitals—although they must be used for that, too—but to achieve environmental ends. I do not believe that the present arrangements for Sir Peter Soulsby: May I begin by thanking the right VED, tax and ownership, with a fuel duty that discriminates hon. Gentleman for his comments about my service on against rural areas, achieve those ends. A road pricing the two Committees? I must say that it is not always scheme could achieve those ends, and I encourage the easy to serve on both, given that both meet at 2.30 pm Government and others to move in that direction. on the same day. The right hon. Gentleman is well aware of the situation 5.36 pm in Leicester. We first crossed swords as members of Leicester city council and often found ourselves in Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester, South) (Lab): My hon. agreement on issues relating to the well-being of the Friend the Chair of the Committee has given a clear city, despite being on different sides, as we are now. exposition of the report, and it was a pleasure to serve Although I am not aware of the details of the scheme under her chairmanship. She spoke of the vital importance about which he talks, I can see many difficulties associated 379 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 380 with such a scheme in a city such as Leicester—not existing road network as an alternative to building more least, in identifying which vehicles are to be penalised in roads. I know that the Government are doing much on the way suggested. I would also suggest that it would that, and no doubt in reply to this debate the Minister make very little impact on levels of congestion in a city will draw attention to some of the things that the such as Leicester or, indeed, any similar urban area. Government are doing already. Technology is increasingly I was making the point that, like road pricing, further available that enables roads to be used better and those extensive road building is not a panacea. Predict and driving vehicles to receive better information, whether provide, of which some will be aware, is now, thankfully, on the roadside, in the cab, if they are driving a lorry, or a fashion long passed. It was an era in which engineers—it through extensions of the information available through was mostly engineers making these predictions—in sat-nav technology. justification of often grandiose schemes, would predict Finally on those points, I know that the Government a level of traffic and seek to provide the flyovers, are also sympathetic to continued investment in public motorways and other grandiose projects supposedly transport as an alternative to investment in roads. That necessary to meet their predictions. Fortunately, we includes investment in freight on rail, to which I know have moved on from that, and I am delighted that the the Minister is committed, investment in high-speed Government no longer take the view that it is possible rail, on which we could have an announcement shortly, to predict levels of road traffic and to provide the roads as the Chair of the Committee said, and, of course, necessary to accommodate them, only to see them fill continued investment in the conventional rail network. up in a couple of years and for further schemes to have Exciting as high-speed rail will be, it will not provide to come along behind them to meet the new levels of solutions for the majority of those using the rail system, traffic. which is already heavily stretched in many areas. Also I was struck, when the Committee received its evidence important, particularly in urban areas, is continued on levels of congestion, by the fact that many of those investment in quality bus services—not services that seeking to argue for further road building did so on the pack up at 6 pm and are unavailable in the evening, or basis of dubious methodology that costed congestion— which are unavailable on Sundays, but services that costs that are inevitably very high—in a way that sought provide a genuine alternative to people who wish to to justify additional spending on roads by setting it avoid using a private car. against those congestion costs. As I said, I found the I know that the Minister is sympathetic to this point methodology very dubious. It is based on the premise and that he will agree with me, but we need quality that if we build roads, we will reduce congestion, that if public transport that not only provides a journey that we reduce congestion, we will reduce journey times, and people find comfortable, but is convenient and, above that if we reduce journey times, we will reduce the costs. all, available at prices that make it attractive as an Frankly, those conclusions do not follow from each alternative to private cars and do not penalise those other. In the real world, building extra roads does not who want to avoid even more private car use and road necessarily reduce congestion; it does not necessarily building. reduce journey times; and it certainly does not necessarily reduce the costs. The evidence for that is not there; the 5.48 pm evidence of our experience is that building roads leads Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I am delighted to those roads filling up. The Committee received compelling to serve on the Transport Committee under the wise evidence from Dr. David Metz, who has written a book guidance of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside entitled, “The Limits to Travel”, which I read after (Mrs. Ellman). I congratulate her on leading the Committee hearing his evidence. I was enormously impressed by in preparing the report. the arguments that he put to the Committee and in his book. They are based on some simple measures of how The hon. Lady is right that, for the first time, we have people behave. He demonstrated to the Committee, and managed to get some decent statistics about how much very clearly in his book, that when journeys are made money is raised from road users and how much goes easier, in general people travel further. back into the road network. The evidence given to the Committee included quite a lot of wide-ranging estimates That is not necessarily a bad thing, but it significantly of the sums of money raised from road users. The undermines the argument that the way to deal with Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport estimated congestion is to build more roads, which is something the figure at £28 billion, the Automobile Association at that in fact leads to people travelling further. David £46 billion, the National Alliance Against Tolls at between Metz demonstrates in his book that, over the considerable £50 billion and £57 billion, and Her Majesty’s Treasury periods of time during which he researched the issue, as at £32.8 billion. Adding all those estimates, and taking well as in different sorts of societies in different places, away various taxes and so on, the Committee ended up the time spent on journeys remains remarkably constant. with its estimate of £48.1 billion for the sum raised from What happens when journeys are made easier is that taxes and charges on road users. people travel further. Therefore, rather than having evidence of the so-called costs of congestion that supports Mr. Greg Knight: Is my hon. Friend aware that, even building additional roads, we actually have evidence if the British Government were to freeze all taxes on that suggests that people will travel further and more motorists and do nothing else, the situation is about to often, making journeys that are, in the broadest sense, get worse? Did he know that that bloated and unaccountable not necessary. organisation called the European Union is about to The third set of points arising from the Committee’s introduce, as its first direct tax, a petrol tax on people report that I want to address are ones on which I know purchasing petrol across the European Union? Experts that the Government are sympathetic, and concern the have estimated that that will add about £3.2 billion to many ways in which better use can be made of our the cost of motoring. 381 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 382

Mr. Hollobone: I am alarmed by the horrifying news Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for that my right hon. Friend brings to the Chamber. It will Tooting (Mr. Khan), telling me that his Department be greeted with alarm by most of his constituents and had no central estimate of those costs. Most people up certainly by most of mine, especially if the revenue and down the country will be shocked that neither the raised were not to be used in this country but instead Department for Transport nor the Department for used to prop up economically unstable countries around Communities and Local Government has a central the Mediterranean. I am horrified by that news, but I estimate of the cost to this country of the pothole am not surprised. Now that we have signed up to the damage on our road network. Lisbon treaty, I am sure that this will be the first of Thankfully, however, we have the Local Government many nightmares of similar proportions. Association, which has provided a figure of £100 million. The Committee looked at how much money was That is the best evidence that I have seen of the cost to spent on roads and services used by motorists. In his our country of the pothole damage. That £100 million evidence to the Committee, the Under-Secretary of sounds like an awful lot of money, and indeed it is. State for Transport, the hon. Member for Gillingham When it is compared with the Select Committee’s estimate (Paul Clark) said that the figure was about £9 billion, of the £48.1 billion raised from taxes and charges on and I would welcome confirmation of that when he motorists, however, it is a very small number indeed. I responds to the debate. I think that we would all agree, would have thought, given the winter we have just however, that there is a huge disparity between the experienced, that there is a perfectly reasonable case for money raised from motorists and the money spent on some of that £48.1 billion—perhaps £100 million of the road network. In layman’s terms, between 20p and it—to be put into our road network to get the pothole 25p of every £1 of revenue raised goes back into the road situation sorted out. network, and the sums involved are extremely large. Another issue is the number of people using our A motorist’s basic requirement of the road network is roads. I very much sympathise with the view put forward that they should be able to drive along at a reasonable by the hon. Member for Leicester, South (Sir Peter speed, without facing too much congestion or too many Soulsby) that if we build more roads, we will end up potholes along the way. This winter, our country has with more road users. I absolutely understand that and experienced one of the most damaging weather events sympathise with that view, but this country faces a very ever. That was the case for everyone in the country, real problem with the number of people living here. whether they live in Kettering in Northamptonshire, or Estimates from the Office for National Statistics suggest Essex or Scotland— that our population is going to increase from 61 million today to 70 million by 2029—and there is nothing we Mr. Knight: Or Bridlington. can do to prevent that from happening. If net immigration Mr. Hollobone: Or Bridlington, even. continues at its present rate of about 160,000 net immigrants a year, our population will go above 70 million. Christopher Fraser (South-West Norfolk) (Con): Or I believe I am right in saying that the Department for Norfolk. Transport’s central estimate of the number of vehicles on our roads is that it is going to increase by one third Mr. Hollobone: Or Norfolk. Our roads are full of by 2025. Although I am hugely sympathetic to the potholes. argument that we should not build more roads because we will end up with more road users, I contend that we Norman Baker: And in Lewes. are actually going to need more road space, because unless we do, our country is simply going to come to a Mr. Hollobone: I am sure that Lewes has many potholes, halt. This is particularly important in areas such as too. There are far too many of them. This is a major Kettering because under the Government’s house building issue; it certainly is for my constituents. programme, the number of houses in my constituency is I asked the Secretary of State for Transport at a set to go up by one third by 2021. The A14 around recent Select Committee evidence session whether he Kettering and other nearby roads will simply come to a had a central estimate of the cost of the damage caused standstill unless more road space is constructed. I am by potholes across the country. He told me that this was afraid that we are going to have to tackle the issue of not his responsibility, and that it was the responsibility needing more roads. of the local authorities. Mr. Greg Knight: That is shocking. Norman Baker: Is not one way forward to make better use of the existing road network and rather than Mr. Hollobone: Well, I was shocked. Indeed, I asked sweating it for three or four hours a day, to make better the Secretary of State whether he thought that our use of it all day? We could also take some cognisance of constituents up and down the country would be shocked my argument—also made by the right hon. Member for by his admission. He said that he did not think so, East Yorkshire (Mr. Knight)—about using road pricing. because this was the responsibility of local authorities. Given that response, I went to the Table Office and Mr. Hollobone: I thought that the hon. Gentleman’s tabled a question to the Department for Communities argument about road pricing was very thoughtful. It and Local Government, in which I asked what that may be one of those issues that is hugely unpopular Department’s central estimate was of the cost of the with the public, but it needs to be looked at very potholes around the country. The reply was that this carefully if we come to the conclusion that we cannot as was a matter not for the DCLG but for the Department a country afford to build more road space. This may be for Transport. A few days later, I got a written response one of the very difficult decisions we will all have to to the same question from the Minister of State, take over the next few years because as a country we 383 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 384 have maxed out on the credit card and do not have the In comparison with the revenue raised from motorists money we would like to spend on these things. I would in taxes and charges, the bill for the repair of the certainly concede that a difficult decision on road pricing potholes is not that great, but it is clear to me that local might well have to be taken. authorities cannot afford to carry out the repairs themselves. The Road Users’ Alliance claims that congestion will This year, central Government should grant an emergency rise 37 per cent. in the next 15 years—a very similar fund to local authorities throughout the country so that estimate to that of the Department for Transport—and our local roads can be fixed. Ministers in whichever it says that UK investment in motorway capacity is Department is involved, the Department for Transport among the lowest in Europe. In the 10 years between or the Department for Communities and Local 1996 to 2006, only Belgium, Austria, Italy and Lithuania Government, should stand up and take a lead. They built fewer roads, and three of those countries are far should say “The Government are going to fix this smaller than the UK. The alliance also makes the very problem, because our country deserves better than this.” good point that only 8 per cent. of UK commuters use Motorists up and down the land who are already paying the train. When we hear the announcement on high-speed a huge amount of money to Her Majesty’s Treasury rail, perhaps tomorrow, it will be interesting to compare would be extremely glad if the Government took that the cost estimate for the high-speed rail scheme against bold and innovative step. the annual £48 billion we are levying from motorists in 6.4 pm taxes and charges. It is roads, not rail, that moves 92 per cent. of passengers and 87 per cent. of freight. Those Christopher Fraser (South-West Norfolk) (Con): I are the brutal statistics. want to make two or three specific points about the problems that we face in Norfolk. I have said in the Mr. Greg Knight: My hon. Friend is making a very House before, and am not embarrassed to say again, good case, but does he agree that we could do more with that Norfolk is the only county in England without a our existing road network if the Department for Transport carriageway linking it to a national trunk road network. were better at warning motorists of congestion or accidents If Norfolk is to play its part in the economic success of ahead? I believe that my hon. Friend’s seat can be our nation as we pull out of recession, it is incumbent reached via either the M1 or the A1. Why oh why does on the Government to ensure that the upgrade of the the Department not ensure that when the M1 is closed, A11 is carried out as soon as possible. We have fought a warning sign is erected that motorists can see before for that upgrade for many years, because without it they reach the M1, so that those who have a choice can Norfolk will continue to suffer disproportionately. switch their journeys and travel up the A1 instead? If Mr. Greg Knight: Is not one of the problems in more advance warning were given, there would be much Norfolk the fact that, for whatever reason, the council less congestion on our motorways. has hatched out roads that are being constructed as three-lane roads, to allow for a middle overtaking lane, Mr. Hollobone: As always, my right hon. Friend has only as two-lane roads? made an extremely constructive suggestion. Amazingly, the Department for Transport is doing something along Christopher Fraser: Compounding the problem that those lines around Kettering. At great expense, it is my right hon. Friend mentions is the fact that Norfolk installing information signs advising motorists of just has struggled over the years to get a roads infrastructure such problems. that is fit for purpose. I share the ends of the A14 with my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering Christopher Fraser: I have written to the Highways (Mr. Hollobone)—he has the other one. Whether Norfolk Agency about signage, pointing out that it is impossible is able to put forward a plan for two or three lanes, the to obtain accurate information about where a problem consequence of its endeavours so far is that the Government lies because only road numbers, as opposed to road and have not followed the proposals with the money and the city names, can be put on the signs owing to shortage of initiative. That is where the main problem lies. space. Is that not nonsense, given all the other information The issue of road pricing in Norfolk is somewhat that the agency is able to give us on the roads? anathema to us, because if we do not have the roads infrastructure there is nothing that can be priced or Mr. Hollobone: It is indeed nonsense. I am pleased taxed. It is a highly rural county and people in my that my hon. Friend has raised that point today, given constituency, which covers more than 1,200 square miles, that the roads Minister is present, and I hope that the invariably use the car as a necessity, not a luxury. Minister will be able to respond to it when he winds up the debate. Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): On that basis, will the hon. Gentleman accept that under a Let me give some other interesting statistics. Motorists road-pricing scheme proposed by the Liberal Democrats pay 4p a mile to the Treasury, while rail travellers receive his constituents would be better off when they used a subsidy of 21p a mile. Between 1998 and 2008 the their car? major road network grew by 1 per cent., but had to cope with traffic growth of almost 10 per cent. Our country’s Christopher Fraser: The first thing that my constituents population is growing at an unprecedented rate, and want is fairness in pricing when using the road, which most people do not realise that. Our roads are crumbling includes fairness in the provision of fuel. In places at an unprecedented rate, but people do realise that, such as Norwich, fuel is a lot cheaper than it is in rural because they find it embarrassing to return from the areas and so elderly people on fixed incomes are United Kingdom from other European countries and disproportionately penalised. In a debate in Westminster see the appalling state of our local road network. We, as Hall a couple of weeks ago, in which I participated, we a country, must do something about that. considered fuel pricing differentials. I am afraid that the 385 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 386

[Christopher Fraser] Europe? We have recommended a charging scheme for hauliers, for which there seemed to be general support Government did not walk up to that problem, and the across the industry. road pricing issue might well be another such case. I am not going to hold it against the Minister, who is a decent Christopher Fraser: I thank the hon. Lady. I am not man, and I hope that he will consider this issue with here to make party political points, because I do not sincerity and will take action. think that this issue needs to be party political. I accept The villages in my constituency are dying on their what she says, I know what she is referring to, and I feet as local service provision is taken away. People do rather hope that the Government will walk up to this not use their cars as a luxury but as a necessity, so roads problem. The report articulates brilliantly some of the are all the more important. However, as my hon. Friend problems that have been mentioned in the debate, and I the Member for Kettering pointed out, the roads are in look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. an incredibly bad condition—we have had a bad winter— In conclusion, there are fundamental problems, and but no one seems to be walking up to the fact that a lot there is a disproportionate responsibility on the British of money needs to be put into their maintenance. road user and taxpayer to deal with those problems. Our roads, alas, are not up to the usage of this day and The nub of what I would like to say in my short age, which is a pity. [Interruption.] The hon. Member speech is that in Norfolk, as in many counties, the for Leicester, South (Sir Peter Soulsby) may not know people who use the roads are not just local people or about that, but he should come to Norfolk and see how British nationals but people coming from abroad. We bad our roads are, how many potholes there are and have a thriving haulage industry in Norfolk because of how long people have to wait to get into the county the requirement to move goods from port to the public because of the lack of a decent road system. He might and from farms to the shops. An awful lot of the then accept the points that I am making out of genuine hauliers that use the roads in my constituency come concern for the road user. People know that with the use from abroad. They often put in the fuel in France, of a vehicle comes responsibility and cost, but my deliver in this country and depart without having spent constituents have for too long paid too much for too a penny. They do not necessarily get penalised on the little. price of fuel as my constituents do. I feel that there is a need to walk up to this important issue. 6.12 pm I want to ask the Minister a quite specific question. I was going to table it as a written question, but as I have Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): the opportunity to look at him directly and ask it this I thank the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside afternoon, I shall do so. Will he tell us at the end of the (Mrs. Ellman) for presenting her report. When I first debate what the true figures are annually for foreign arrived in the House, I served on the Transport Committee road users? How many foreign cars and how many under the chairmanship of Gwyneth Dunwoody, and I foreign trucks and lorries use the roads of this country know that the hon. Lady is carrying on her doughty each year? It is my contention that a contribution work. I think that, to some extent, matters have moved should be made by the foreign vehicles that use UK on since the report was published, but I shall touch on roads to pay for some of the upkeep, the need for which that later. has been so well articulated in this debate. I thank the hon. Member for Leicester, South (Sir Peter Soulsby) for his comments about the end of the “predict After all, if someone goes to France on holiday with and provide” era, but there are other factors to take into their family, they arrive in Calais or another port and account, particularly the point that my hon. Friend the before they have got terribly far along the motorway, Member for Kettering (Mr. Hollobone) made about the they are stopped and charged quite a price for the population increases in certain parts of the country. privilege. When they arrive at their destination, they That issue needs to be addressed. The Conservative have paid for that privilege. I would suggest that if a shadow Communities and Local Government team has family are going abroad, they will not stop going to announced plans to allow local authorities to keep the France because they have to pay that cost. It is an first six years’ of council tax, plus a top-up, when new accepted part of the travelling process. In Switzerland development takes place. Some of those funds could be and other European countries, one is stopped at the used to build the schools and infrastructure needed to border, they look at one’s passport and, without hesitation, support such development. There are also quality of life they stick a vignette on the windscreen. If one wishes to issues to consider. For those living in congested town use their roads, it costs approximately £60 for the year. I centres, a bypass can literally breathe fresh air into the hope that the Minister will tell us either this afternoon community.Although I take the hon. Member for Leicester, or very shortly afterwards the true figures for how many South’s point about reducing journey times and generating people use our roads, and how much money could be traffic, other issues need to be taken into account. raised to maintain our road infrastructure from foreign vehicles visiting our country. I humbly suggest that if a I am a little surprised that the Government have family from France, Germany or Switzerland is spending selected this subject for today’s estimates day debate, £1,000 or £2,000 on a holiday in the United Kingdom, because we had an opportunity to explore these issues they would not be put off by having to pay a small only yesterday in Westminster Hall in a debate initiated contribution to use our roads for a year. by my hon. Friend the Member for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans). I guess it is the nature of transport that we can wait weeks for a debate to come along and then two Mrs. Ellman: May I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention come together. [Interruption.] It gets worse. I am also to a section of the Committee’s report that focuses surprised by the selection because the Government have specifically on hauliers who come from other parts of a lamentable record on investing in roads and because 387 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 388 their flagship policies on urban congestion charging the new showroom tax will come in in the new financial and road pricing lie in tatters in the face of public year, and that will levy up to £1,000 on the cost of some opposition. In fact, I would not be surprised if the most polluting vehicles. Minister were to revise The Highway Code to exclude One could be forgiven for assuming that this Government the road sign forbidding U-turns. included road investment in their massive splurge of spending, which was often funded by irresponsible Mrs. Ellman: The hon. Gentleman might be interested borrowing, over the last few years, but the facts show to know that the decision to have this debate today was that road investment has lost out. The following figures made not by the Government but by the Liaison are based on real prices for 2007-08, and so allow for Committee, which comprises the Chairs of all the Select inflation. In the 10 years between 1987 and 1997, the Committees. Perhaps that it is another illustration of average annual spend on road investment was the importance of Select Committees. £6.3 billion—and I do not need to tell the Minister who Mr. Goodwill: And there was I thinking that the was running the country then—but in the 10 years Whips organised everything in this place. I am heartened between 1998 and 2008 the average was £4.3 billion. to hear that. That represents a cut of a third in the money going into roads. I suspect that the real reason why the Liaison Committee suggested this debate may be that, once again, we will In fact, the peak year was 1992-93, when £6.89 billion not have an opportunity to discuss transport as part of was invested in roads. The lowest year was 1999-2000, the Finance Bill debate. That makes me very concerned when the figure was only £3.821 billion. So although the about what further delights the Chancellor may have in Government make big claims about all the money spent store for the beleaguered motorist. on transport, it certainly has not been spent on our country’s road infrastructure. It is no wonder that congestion Motorists and other road users make a massive has continued to be a problem over the life of the contribution to tax revenues. In the 2009 Budget, Government. They failed not just to mend the roof when £26.6 billion was raised through fuel duties, an increase the sun was shining, but the driveway lost out, too. of £2 billion on the previous year. A total of £4.7 billion Two flagship policies have foundered on the rocks of was raised through VAT on fuel, and £5.6 billion through public opposition. First, the transport innovation fund VED. That was formerly known as the road fund licence was established in 2004 and promised generous funding but, as we know, it alone raises more than the Government for local transport projects if proposals were presented spent on investing in roads last year. for local congestion charging. Some people have described Mr. Greg Knight: Has my hon. Friend seen last year’s that as bribing councils to introduce congestion charging. report by Professor David Newbery of Cambridge Of the 10 councils or groups of councils that expressed university, who looked into the question of taxation on an interest, only Durham looks like delivering a scheme, fuel? Taking into account the environmental effect of at £2 a time. The final nail in the coffin was the referendum motor cars, he concluded that fuel taxes are twice as in December 2008, when 78.8 per cent. of voters in high as they should be if fuel tax were to be viewed as Manchester rejected congestion charging there, despite an environmental tax. There is therefore absolutely no the fact that it had already cost £24.1 million to develop case for increasing the duty on fuel any further. the scheme to that stage. That aborted congestion charging policy has still cost the taxpayer £41.7 million nationally. Mr. Goodwill: My right hon. Friend makes a very Secondly, the rebranded urban challenge fund will no valid point. However, having just visited the US, where longer include a requirement to introduce tolls. What the price of petrol is low, I think one can see the effect of an embarrassing and expensive U-turn by the Government. not having a realistic fuel price that takes into account We have heard from the Chair of the Transport the externalities that the hon. Member for Liverpool, Committee how the Government have backed away Riverside pointed out. from their spy-in-the-sky road-charging scheme in the face of the 1.8 million people who signed on to the No. Mr. Hollobone: My hon. Friend mentioned VED and 10 website. That may possibly even merit an entry in the amount that it raises. Would it not be helpful if the “The Guinness Book of Records”. The fact is that Minister, at the close of this debate, were to give the drivers did not trust the Government when they said House the up-to-date figures on the number of road they would reduce other types of taxation on drivers if users who do not pay VED but should, and on the a road-user charge was introduced. Drivers saw that as number of uninsured drivers on our roads? another stealth tax and another way to persecute the motorist. Now, of course, the Government have backtracked Mr. Goodwill: I hope that the Minister will refer to under pressure, but I am pleased that the Liberal Democrats that. The hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) said have picked up that unpopular policy and are trying to that he wanted to abolish VED, but I believe that the run with it. I think they will get the same reaction from need to make sure that a vehicle is insured and MOT’d the electorate when they try to promote it, particularly at least once a year helps to clamp down on uninsured as they take the irresponsible view that they can reduce vehicles. I hope that the Government—although perhaps investment in roads by 90 per cent. at the same time. it will fall to others—will do something to address the That would have a devastating effect on our country’s problem of cloned vehicles and the ease with which infrastructure and our ability to attract investment, jobs counterfeit number plates can be obtained. and all the other ways that the efficiency of a country’s The Royal Automobile Club has calculated that only transport system can help the people who live there. a third of the £37 billion raised from vehicle taxation is spent on motorists. The figure for tax revenue does not Norman Baker: The hon. Gentleman is being include VAT on new vehicles or revenue accruing from uncharacteristically ill-informed. Let me make it clear servicing, repairs and parking. On top of that, of course, that, first, we do not propose spy-in-the-sky technology. 389 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 390

[Norman Baker] Mr. Goodwill: Yes, because the only way to incentivise people to fill up in the UK is by, in effect, by making Secondly, the cut would be made to the major roads fuel cheaper in the UK than abroad. Measures would budget, not to the roads budget, which is an entirely need to be introduced in conjunction with the lorry different matter. Thirdly, the entirety of the money that road user charging scheme to balance its cost with we propose to cut from the major roads budget would changes to VED or fuel duty revenue, and perhaps a be reinvested in railways. Fourthly, the road pricing rebate. For administration of the scheme, we already would be made revenue-neutral for the average motorist have arrangements whereby VAT is regained, so the by abolishing VED and cutting fuel duty. That is quite a administrative burden would not be so great. Varying good package. fuel prices in different countries and exchange rates would have to be taken into account, of course. Mr. Goodwill: Well, time will tell. I should be obliged I should make it clear that the system would apply if the hon. Gentleman gave me a detailed run-down of only to lorries. We are not proposing a scheme that those policies. would apply to cars. Car drivers rightly feel that the We welcome the scrapping of the scheme, but we roads in our country have already been paid for through worry that the Government may have thrown the baby the taxation that they have paid over the years. We do, out with the bathwater, given that the intention was to however, feel that the model of the M6 tool and the introduce a lorry road-user charging scheme. We are Mersey gateway project, which is in the process of being concerned about the uncompetitive situation that faces planned and constructed, offers the way to attract private the British road haulage industry. The difference in capital into improvements in our infrastructure. I believe diesel prices between the UK and the rest of the EU is that motorists would accept that, because they would marked, despite the fact that that has been addressed be paying for something over and above what already somewhat by the devaluation of sterling. In April 2009, exists. What they do not want to do, as the No. 10 the differential was about 10p in the nearest countries, website petition showed, is pay again for something that but diesel was 26p cheaper on average in the 26 member they have already paid for. states than in the UK. That has resulted in a very real problem for the British road haulage industry. In fact, Mr. Hollobone: My hon. Friend mentioned foreign- when the vehicles entering the country through the registered vehicles other than lorries. Does he agree ports and the tunnel were monitored, it was found that with me that there is a real problem in this country with 81 per cent. of vehicles using those links were foreign the rules on MOTs and VED? Under EU rules, such trucks. That is a measure of the degree to which the vehicles are allowed on UK roads for up to six months, British road haulage industry has had difficulty competing after which our domestic regulations must be complied on this very unlevel playing field. with, but there is no effective way to enforce that. In 2001, when the price of fuel peaked, there were widespread demonstrations up and down the country—the Mr. Goodwill: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I fuel protests—and the then leader of the Conservative recently spent a day with the North Yorkshire police party, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, vehicle monitoring unit, which has the automatic Yorks (Mr. Hague), suggested a Brit disc—a vignette numberplate detection system. We pulled up a Romanian for which foreign trucks would have to pay.The Government car, but the officers told me that, by and large, they do of the day regarded that as being against European not pull up foreign cars because even if the people rules, but in the meantime countries such as Austria, the inside can speak English, they pretend that they cannot. Czech Republic and Germany have introduced their I do not believe that there is any mileage in trying to own schemes for lorries, with Germany using a satellite- charge foreign cars to use our roads, not least because based scheme and the other two countries a tag and other countries might bring in reciprocal charges for beacon scheme. As transit countries, they are able to British vehicles using their roads. regain the revenue from the trucks crossing their country, Finally, I shall say a word or two about the greening which often fill up outside their country. of our roads and vehicles. Yesterday, with the Minister It has been estimated by NERA Economic Consulting for Business, Innovation and Skills and the hon. Member that the cost of foreign trucks running on British roads for Lewes (Norman Baker), I attended the launch by is £195 million in road wear, plus environmental costs of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders of its more than £35 million and costs of accidents of almost report on CO2 emissions from vehicles. We were heartened £33 million. We suggest introducing a lorry road user to see that average emissions from vehicles sold last year charging scheme in the UK—for all trucks, not just had fallen to 149.5 grams per kilometre, a reduction of foreign ones, to meet the European rules—leading to a 5.4 grams. We are well on target for the 2012 target gain to the UK Treasury of about £400 million in fuel of 130 grams per kilometre. That is in marked contrast duty revenue that currently goes to other EU treasuries. to the situation in the United States, whose equivalent In addition, we would gain the increase in tax, national of our industry agreement is the corporate average fuel insurance and corporation tax paid by UK haulage economy agreement. The CAFE agreement calls for a companies, which would benefit. 40 per cent. reduction by 2016, but if that target was met, it would mean only that vehicles were achieving Norman Baker: Lorries would be caught by our proposed 35 miles to the gallon. Since 1993, fuel taxation in the road pricing scheme, but as I explained, as part of the United States has been fixed for political reasons at offsetting, we would cut fuel duty and reduce VED to 18.5 cents, not per litre but per US gallon. the minimum under EU rules for lorries. Is the hon. The UK has the most expensive petrol and diesel in Gentleman proposing offsetting savings for lorries in Europe. Motorists understand the environmental impact his scheme? of their mode of travel, and the need to pay taxes and 391 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 392 charges that they judge to be fair. For many in rural Motoring tax revenues are combined with those from areas there is no alternative to the car—or Land Rover, other taxes in the Consolidated Fund, where they support for that matter—so the potential for modal shift using a range of Government spending priorities. It is therefore the stick of taxation must be rural-proofed. I welcome misleading to compare motoring tax revenues with road moves by the Government to incentivise new green or transport spending. Hypothecating revenues to particular technologies such as electric vehicles by promoting places spending programmes imparts inflexibility and can lead to plug in, and I hope they will address the flaws in the to a misallocation of public resources, reducing the renewable transport fuel obligation certificates scheme. value of taxpayers’ money. Some contributors said, As the Minister knows, the 20p per litre for green “This was the revenue from vehicle excise duty and fuel fuels—biodiesel and ethanol—is being phased out at duty, but it is not the money being spent on roads.” As the end of the current financial year. It was supposed to several speakers recognised, however, that money funds be replaced by a trading scheme, but because of the not only roads, but many other aspects of transport, mistakes made in specifying which fuel was relevant, and many other public services to which I have referred. there is concern that the embryonic biofuels industry It is true, as the hon. Member for Lewes recognised, will be strangled at birth and will not be able to continue. that when possible and appropriate we should structure I hope the Minister will consider how that can be revenue-raising taxes to support other Government addressed. objectives, a classic example of which is environmental The real debate will start on Budget day and continue policy. So, vehicle excise duty is structured to incentivise during the ensuing general election campaign. With the uptake of lower CO2-emitting cars, while fuel duty flagship policies such as road charging and congestion gives added incentives for greater fuel efficiency. Decisions schemes in tatters, people are asking where the vision on tax are a matter for my right hon. Friend the and commitment are to provide green, convenient and Chancellor of the Exchequer, who considers each tax as cost-effective transport solutions for road users. The part of his wider fiscal judgment within the normal Government have run into the sand, run out of ideas Budget-making process. In taking those decisions, he and run out of money. We cannot go on like this. If the considers all the relevant social, economic and Government cannot change, voters will soon have the environmental matters that must be taken into account. opportunity to vote for real change. On transport spending, we start not with a clear sheet, but with a structure and transport network that 6.32 pm has been built up by incremental changes—some big, some small—over many decades. The choices and the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport drivers behind them have sometimes been local and (Paul Clark): I welcome the work of the Transport sometimes been national, but more often than not they Committee and its inquiry into taxes and charges on have been a combination of both. Sometimes the choices road users. I thank the Committee for its work over the were uncontroversial, and other times they were far year in helping to identify critical issues in transport from it. From the creation of the Bridgewater canal in matters. the 1760s, which led to the canal boom, to the building We had interesting contributions from the Chair of of Heathrow terminal 5, however, every change to our the Select Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for transport network has mattered. Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs. Ellman), from the Opposition Even seemingly small changes and decisions can have Front-Bench spokespersons, the hon. Members for Lewes great implications. Changes to the railway timetable (Norman Baker) and for Scarborough and Whitby after some 40 years can shake up the working patterns (Mr. Goodwill), and from my hon. Friend the Member of thousands of commuters, and the closure of a bus for Leicester, South (Sir Peter Soulsby), and the hon. stop can trap an elderly person in their home and lead Members for Kettering (Mr. Hollobone) and for South-West to social exclusion; but the opening of a new bus route Norfolk (Christopher Fraser), as well as a number of can create new job opportunities, and opportunities for timely if not well-informed interventions, to which I those in rural areas—a matter that was touched on might return before the end of my speech. earlier and to which I shall return specifically. All those It would be sensible for me to set out at the beginning issues place great responsibility on the Department for the context in which the Government’s decisions on Transport, and there are certain things that we simply transport taxation and spending are made. The core have to do. We have to maintain the roads—with record point is that Governments do not and cannot make levels of investment, despite the comments from the transport tax or spending decisions in isolation. Many hon. Member for Kettering—and we need to support of the contributions to the debate today concentrated local authorities, keep the railways running and stick to on one aspect, without considering the subject in the our contractual obligations. round. The report from the Transport Committee I shall now address some of the issues that hon. recognised that taxation and spending need to be considered Members raised. We have responded fully to the Transport in the round in order to get a fuller picture. Committee’s recommendations, and that work helps to Each choice has to be seen in the wider context of the guide the Department’s work. Let me assure hon. Members Budget and the spending review. As I said in the debate that we have a close relationship with the Treasury—as in Westminster Hall on Tuesday, it is essential to emphasise with all spending Departments, not surprisingly—and that taxes on motorists are primarily revenue-raising take part in proper discussions about spending taxes that serve to support public finances and fund commitments, value for money and taxation. As regards public services. It should be remembered that motorists the issues of mistrust that were referred to by the Select are not just motorists; they are consumers of public Committee, let me put it on record in this House that we services and, of course, taxpayers like many other people. certainly recognise the importance of transparency on I set that out at the beginning so that people are revenues and spending. That is why statistics are published absolutely clear about the basis for taxation. as part of the Budget and pre-Budget report process. 393 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 394

[Paul Clark] Paul Clark: There are always a number of schemes to be considered at any given time. We have introduced The issue of rural communities is fundamentally ours because we believe it will have the desired effect as important, and this Government have very much sought part of our carbon reduction and climate change policies, to reduce the exclusion and isolation that we recognise and we will need to see how it works. I should say that that rural communities can suffer from in comparison VED raises some £5.6 billion annually. with urban communities. That is why we introduced the Local Transport Act 2008, which gave powers to local Christopher Fraser: The Minister’s point about tax authorities to enable them to negotiate, discuss and take bands is valid in relation to emissions, but even accepting forward proposals with bus companies, for example, to that, somebody who lives in a rural area and has to use provide for better schemes to cover rural areas. Indeed, a four-wheel-drive vehicle is doubly penalised unless we we went further in helping to deliver a better system by have a scheme based on geographic area in the way that improving the facilities and provisions for community my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr. Hollobone) transport schemes. set out. I have heard what has been said about car use, with people arguing for a differentiated fuel duty in rural Paul Clark: There is not a three-line whip that requires areas. Let me make the position very clear. Fuel duty is people in any given setting to have the most polluting levied on the producer at the point it leaves the refinery—it and largest vehicles. Equally, because of the technology is currently set at a rate of 56.19p per litre—and it is set under the bonnet, not all large vehicles fall within the according to where one is in the United Kingdom. I higher bands. We have been incentivising vehicle recognise the business about fuel being more expensive manufacturers to work together in partnership to reduce at the pump in some rural areas than in urban areas. emissions levels from any particular model. That is not to do with fuel duty, but with market forces To pick up on a point that the hon. Member for such as the additional transport costs that are involved Lewes made, he suggested that abolishing VED and to get the fuel to that particular petrol station and less reducing fuel duty would make everything much better. competition among suppliers in a given market. He said that people would shift to the railways and so Even if we did have a rural fuel duty, we could not on. I recognise what he says, but I do not believe that it guarantee that it would be passed on to the consumer, would work, and I am sure that he does not either. The as it could be absorbed in the bottom line of the first thing he said was that motorists deserve a fair deal, commercial operator selling the fuel. Equally, it could and I doubt whether they would recognise cutting 90 per have a perverse effect in that we ended up with people cent. of the road budget as a fair deal. driving from what would be perceived as high-duty The railways are undoubtedly a beacon, because of areas to low-duty areas and adding to congestion on the the investment and changes in the system. There are roads, and carbon emissions, in those areas. The level of 49 per cent. more people travelling on our railways—the tax is not the reason why fuel is more expensive in rural highest level since the second world war—and all the areas. changes have made a real difference to people. The hon. Gentleman will know about the levels of patronage and Mr. Hollobone: Her Majesty’s Government could, of use. There is still further work to be done, and it will be course, consider differential charging on vehicle excise interesting to see what further developments the duty whereby motorists living in rural areas paid a very Government will suggest as we go forward. low rate while those living in cities paid a far larger Equally, however, I wish to point out that I attended amount. an urban logistics conference this morning, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, Paul Clark: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman South for recognising my commitment to freight. It is raises the issue of vehicle excise duty. We have introduced absolutely essential that we have a strong freight logistics the 13-band system for vehicle excise duty, which is business in this country. That includes road, rail, inland linked to carbon emissions. Of course, people in rural waterways when that is sensible, and coastal shipping. I areas do not have to have vehicles that are in the highest strongly believe that, which is why the Government will band. As I believe the hon. Member for Scarborough continue to invest money via the various modal shift and Whitby pointed out in the recent debate in Westminster grants that we provide. I must recognise, however, that Hall, not all large vehicles fall into the highest VED there are limitations. Sixty-eight per cent. of freight bands. The carbon emissions produced and the technology moves within the same region. With the best will in the in the vehicle are the most important factors. Under the world, and given that we are geographically a relatively new VED rates, 68 per cent. of all vehicle owners will small country, it would not be common sense to shift either pay no more or pay less than they did in 2009. that freight on to the railways or some other means of The change is very much about the green agenda, and I transport. We must take a balanced approach. am delighted that the hon. Gentleman recognises the work that this Government have done in that field. VED bands are not retrospective, and there is nothing Norman Baker: I thank the Minister for answering new about introducing VED rates that apply to existing my points, but I am looking at policy in the round. Of vehicles. That has been the case since day one of the tax. course most freight will need to go by road, and in fact, space for freight movement will be created by the Mr. Goodwill: Has the Minister given any consideration introduction of a road-pricing system. to having a sliding scale of VED rather than bands? However, on the switch from the major roads budget to That would incentivise people to select greener vehicles the rail schemes that we are proposing, the Minister will within a particular category. I have certainly received recognise the tremendous growth in the railways and representations along those lines. the growth to come. Notwithstanding the announcement 395 Road Users (Taxes and Charges)10 MARCH 2010 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 396 on high-speed rail that I am anticipating tomorrow, the because of that investment and the improved reliability. Government have not produced any new rail schemes High Speed 1 will be critical, and I suspect that further for the localised reopening of stations and lines, for high-speed opportunities will take us a long way. which many people in the country are clamouring. That The Chair of the Select Committee and my hon. has happened in Scotland with Stirling-Alloa and in Friend the Member for Leicester, South both mentioned Wales with Ebbw Vale, but it has not happened in continued investment. We are clear that if we cut back England. The Minister will know that many schemes, on investment in our infrastructure, it will not be good such as Skipton and Colne, have a good economic case. for UK plc, including business and enterprise, as well as Money must be found for them if we are going to find a individuals trying to go to work, visit relatives or go on space for the railways to grow and meet the needs of holiday. passengers in future. The hon. Member for Kettering raised the issue of a Paul Clark: The record investments that have been European tax on fuel, but no such thing is in the going into the railway system at a national level have pipeline. The Government are clear that tax is a matter been made to ensure that, for example, we have a decent for member states, and there is no case for harmonisation. west coast main line that is reliable and punctual. We Nor has any proposal been tabled for such a tax, and I must have investment in that. Further investments have put that clearly on the record. The hon. Gentleman said been made, including, for example, in Reading station. that for every £1 collected only 20 to 25p goes on We have always said that the case for the reopening of building the road network. That is the whole point. He stations can be made through the regional funding does not take into account the externalities involved, allocation process and other via routes. If there is a case including the policing of the highways, clearing up after for the schemes and if resource is available, they could accidents or the cost of lighting, let alone addressing move forward, but each case must be considered on its the effect of road use on the environment. merits. I hear what hon. Members have said about potholes. It is interesting that when it suits them, people want Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): I wonder why diktats from Whitehall, but the rest of the time they we are discussing that kind of thing if we cannot bring want local decision making. It is obvious that local to the Minister’s attention two cases in my constituency. authorities are best able to assess the damage to their First, Skelmersdale has no railway station at all—there roads that was caused by the winter weather. The costs is low car ownership among its 38,000 or 40,000 people, for February last year are only just being put together. but they have no access to the rail service. Secondly, the It was claimed that the cost would be £50 million, but Burscough curves proposals would make such a major we expect the final figure to be some £12 million. The difference at the north end of my constituency. Local Government Association has suggested that this Paul Clark: I recognise my hon. Friend’s arguments. year’s bill will be £100 million, but its letter also recognises It is about striking a balance in our transport infrastructure, that it is far too early to say what the cost will be and which might involve investment in the railways or in the that current estimates are very broad figures. We are bus network, in which we have put some £2.4 billion. considering that issue, as well as some specific claims That investment, free local travel for older people across that we have received. the country, ensuring that the roads are safe and secure The hon. Gentleman referred to house building and enough for people to walk or cycle, and ensuring safety the fact that we had far too many people in this country. for motorcyclists make a difference. The actual growth in vehicle numbers over the past Let me move to one or two other matters that were 50 years has been steady and has not peaked or fallen in raised in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for connection with various events. The whole idea of regional Leicester, South said that further road building is not funding allocations is to bring together programmes the answer. I recognise his arguments, and he referred to such as those for house building with transport a very good publication by Dr. David Metz. It is about requirements, and the Government are investing in schemes getting the balance right. We must recognise that bottlenecks such as Fast Track to help to ensure that transport appear because of, for example, engineering set-ups and systems are in place for people. lights. Let us take as an example the Hindhead tunnel We have had a wide-ranging debate, and time is too under the A3, a project in which we have invested some short to allow me to respond to all the points that have £376 million. The tunnel goes under a major environmental been raised, but we will continue to take on board the area, and will make a great difference to air quality, work of the Transport Committee. I am grateful for the people’s quality of life, and motorists, for whom it will ability to debate some of the issues relating to taxation save time and money. It is right that we look at how we and spending. One of the things that this Government can best use the assets that we have, and that is why we are certain off is that investment in infrastructure and announced a £6 billion programme, to be rolled out in our transport system is important for business, individuals coming years, to accommodate traffic better and improve and UK plc. flow on motorways, including hard shoulder running and active traffic management. 7pm We need to get the balance right, and that is why we Question deferred (Standing Order No. 54 (4)). have invested in the west coast main line. People wanting The Deputy Speaker put the deferred Questions (Standing to travel further now have a decent rail service to choose, Order No. 54 (5)). 397 Road Users (Taxes and Charges) 10 MARCH 2010 398

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 2009-10 ESTIMATES, EXCESSES, 2008-09 Resolved, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH That, for the year that ended with 31 March 2009— Resolved, (1) resources, not exceeding £23,893,853,000, be authorised for That, for the year ending with 31 March 2010, for expenditure use to make good excesses of certain resources for defence and by the Department of Health— civil services as set out in HC 263, and (1) further resources, not exceeding £969,893,000, be authorised (2) limits as so set out be set on appropriations in aid.—(Mark for use as set out in HC 257, Tami.) (2) a further sum, not exceeding £606,272,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund to meet the costs as so set out, and SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 2009-10 (3) limits as so set out be set on appropriations in aid. Resolved, That, for the year ending with 31 March 2010— DEPARTMENT FOR TRANSPORT (1) further resources, not exceeding £9,706,070,000, be authorised Resolved, for defence and civil services as set out in HC 257 and HC 324, That, for the year ending with 31 March 2010, for expenditure (2) a further sum, not exceeding £7,035,947,000, be granted to by the Department for Transport— Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund to meet the costs of (1) further resources, not exceeding £606,268,000, be authorised defence and civil services as so set out, and for use as set out in HC 257, (3) limits as set out in HC 257 be set on appropriations in (2) a further sum, not exceeding £257,734,000, be granted to aid.—(Mark Tami.) Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund to meet the costs as so Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the foregoing set out, and Resolutions relating to Supplementary Estimates, 2009-10, (3) limits as so set out be set on appropriations in aid. and Estimates, Excesses, 2008-09 and the Resolution of 10 December relating to Supplementary Estimates and HM REVENUE AND CUSTOMS New Estimates, 2009-10; Resolved, That the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Chancellor That, for the year ending with 31 March 2010, for expenditure of the Exchequer, Liam Byrne, Sarah McCarthy-Fry, by HM Revenue and Customs— Ian Pearson and Stephen Timms introduce the Bill. (1) further resources, not exceeding £242,822,000, be authorised for use as set out in HC 257, CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL (2) a further sum, not exceeding £212,951,000, be granted to Her Majesty out of the Consolidated Fund to meet the costs as so Presentation and First Reading set out, and Mr. Stephen Timms accordingly presented a Bill to (3) limits as so set out be set on appropriations in aid.—(Mark authorise the use of resources for the service of the Tami.) years ending with 31 March 2009 and 31 March 2010 The Deputy Speaker then put the Questions on the and to apply certain sums out of the Consolidated outstanding Estimates (Standing Order No. 55). Fund to the service of the year ending with 31 March 2010; and to appropriate the supply authorised in this Session of Parliament for the service of the years ending ESTIMATES, 2010-11 (NAVY) VOTE A with 31 March 2009 and 31 March 2010. Resolved, Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time That, during the year ending with 31 March 2011, a number tomorrow; and to printed (Bill 74). not exceeding 42,550 all ranks be maintained for Naval Service and that numbers in the Reserve Naval and Marine Forces be authorised for the purposes of Parts 1, 3, 4 and 5 of the Reserve Business without Debate Forces Act 1996 up to the maximum numbers set out in HC 304 of this Session.—(Mark Tami.) BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE ESTIMATES, 2010-11, (ARMY) VOTE A Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Resolved, Order No. 15), That, during the year ending with 31 March 2011, a number That, at this day’s sitting, the Second Reading of the Third not exceeding 124,030 all ranks be maintained for Army Service Parties (Rights Against Insurers) Bill [Lords] may be proceeded and that numbers in the Reserve Land Forces be authorised for with, though opposed, until any hour.—(Mark Tami.) the purposes of Parts 1, 3, 4 and 5 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 Question agreed to. up to the maximum numbers set out in HC 304 of this Session.— (Mark Tami.) THIRD PARTIES (RIGHTS AGAINST INSURERS) ESTIMATES, 2010-11 (AIR) VOTE A BILL [LORDS] Resolved, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing That, during the year ending with 31 March 2011, a number Orders Nos. 59(3) and 90(5), That the Bill be now read not exceeding 47,400 all ranks be maintained for Air Force a Second time. —(Mark Tami.) Service and that numbers in the Reserve Air Forces be authorised Question agreed to. for the purposes of Parts 1, 3, 4 and 5 of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 up to the maximum numbers set out in HC 304 of this Bill accordingly read a Second time; to stand committed Session.—(Mark Tami.) to a Public Bill Committee (Standing Order No. 63). 399 Business without Debate10 MARCH 2010 Business without Debate 400

DELEGATED LEGISLATION PETITIONS Energy Costs (Highlands and Islands) Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 10 to 15 together. 7.3 pm Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Danny Alexander (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Order No. 118 (6)), Strathspey) (LD): I have the honour of presenting a petition of concerned energy users in the highlands and islands that has been signed by several hundred of my constituents, whose signatures were collected alongside NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE a similar petition, which will be presented by my right That the draft Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Consequential hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber Amendments No. 2) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 19 January, be approved. (Mr. Kennedy). The petition concerns the problems faced by people who use heating oil and liquefied petroleum That the draft Health and Social Care Act 2008 (Regulated gas as their principal source of heat, because there is no Activities) Regulations 2010, which were laid before this House access to the main gas grid, and the associated problems on 2 February, be approved. of fuel poverty and the lack of support for energy efficiency that affect these people.

SOCIAL SECURITY The petition states: The Petition of concerned energy users in the Highlands and That the draft Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions Islands, and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2010, which were laid before this House on 28 January, be approved. Declares that the below Petitioners are concerned about the energy costs faced by households without access to the gas main, That the draft Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) and the large rise in numbers facing acute fuel poverty this winter. (Payment of Claims) (Amendment) Regulations 2010, which The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons were laid before this House on 28 January, be approved. urges the Government to target emergency financial help at those who rely on heating oil, LPG or solid fuel to match the support currently provided through the six biggest gas and electricity EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING providers. That the draft Employee Study and Training (Qualifying Period And the Petitioners remain, etc. of Employment) Regulations 2010, which were laid before this [P000753] House on 1 February, be approved. Energy Costs (Highlands and Islands) 7.5 pm EXTRADITION Mr. Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (LD): That the draft Extradition Act 2003 (Amendment to Designations) I wish to present a petition framed in similar terms to Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 21 January, be that presented by my hon. Friend and neighbour the approved.—(Mark Tami.) Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey Question agreed to. (Danny Alexander), which, too, has been signed by a significant number of my constituents. In so doing, I would like to underscore the point that he made about the deep unfairnesses and practical injustices—not least EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS this winter, of all winters—that have been experienced by both sets of constituents and by many thousands of Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing others besides, in the highlands of Scotland generally Order No. 119 (11)), and in Scotland as a whole. That this House takes note of European Union Documents Following is the full text of the petition: No. 5271/10 and Addendum 1, 2008 Commission Annual Report [The Petition of concerned energy users in the Highlands on the Implementation of the Instrument for Pre-accession Assistance, No. 14685/09, Commission Communication on Instrument for and Islands, Pre-accession Assistance (IPA) Multi-Annual Indicative Financial Declares that the below Petitioners are concerned about Framework for 2011–2013, No. 15365/09 and Addendum 1, the energy costs faced by households without access to the Commission Annual Report of the Instrument for Structural gas main, and the large rise in numbers facing acute fuel Policy for Pre-accession (ISPA) 2008, No. 5226/10 and Addendum poverty this winter. 1, Commission 2008 Annual Report on PHARE, Turkey Preaccession Instruments, CARDS and Transition Facility and No. 5516/10, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Court of Auditors Special Report 16-2009, the European Commons urges the Government to target emergency Commission’s Management of Preaccession Assistance to Turkey; financial help at those who rely on heating oil, LPG or and urges the Commission to learn lessons from previous enlargements, solid fuel to match the support currently provided through in particular the need to ensure IPA is well-managed and effective.— the six biggest gas and electricity providers. (Mark Tami.) And the Petitioners remain, etc.] Question agreed to. [P000752] 401 10 MARCH 2010 Law on Assisted Suicide 402

Law on Assisted Suicide The hon. Member for Oxford, West and Abingdon Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House (Dr. Harris)—on this issue, I shall call him my hon. do now adjourn.—(David Wright.) Friend—made the point in his excellent speech in the Westminster Hall debate last November that on the one 7.6 pm hand, our society and the law recognise and fully respect the right of a mentally competent person to refuse Ms Patricia Hewitt (Leicester, West) (Lab): Thank life-saving treatment, and thus to die. He pointed out you for giving me the opportunity to raise this important that that applies even in the case of a 13-year-old girl. and sensitive issue in the House this evening, Mr. Deputy On the other hand, however, we refuse to recognise the Speaker. right of a mentally competent adult who is terminally ill When I served as Health Secretary a few years ago, I to seek help to die when they want to. That debate in became increasingly concerned about the plight of Westminster Hall was the first on this subject in the individuals who were seeking an assisted death and who House in the past 10 years—and an excellent debate it desperately wanted the support of their families, friends as, too. and medical practitioners, but who could not—and The House has a long and honourable tradition of cannot—get that help legally, here in their own country. debating and then changing the law on controversial I was also clear, however, that the issue was not one on issues that, very properly, belong to free votes rather which Ministers in general, or the Health Secretary in than to party manifestos. The other place, to its credit, particular, should seek to initiate a change in the law. As has held a number of serious and thoughtful debates in the House will remember, I already had quite enough recent years, as well as conducting its own review of this controversies to deal with when I was at the Department issue. When the great majority of people say that they of Health. I decided instead to pursue the issue once I want a law to permit assisted dying, and when there is had returned to the Back Benches, which I am now such an urgent need to re-establish the reputation of doing as a patron of Dignity in Dying, an admirable this House, we should have the courage to tackle organisation dedicated to ensuring that patients can controversial issues rather than run away from them. In make well-informed choices about the care and treatment the absence of parliamentary action, however, it has that they receive at the end of their lives. If I am ever been left to individuals and the courts to force the pace faced with the diagnosis of a terminal illness, I do not of change. know what choice I would make for myself, but I do Last year I was approached by a constituent—a know that I want that choice. woman with a severe progressive condition, from which I want to begin by warmly welcoming the publication she will never recover, who had already suffered years of of the Government’s “End of life” strategy. In my distress. She wants to go to Switzerland to die, but she constituency I have seen the wonderful work done over does not want to go alone. She asked whether I could many years by staff and volunteers at our local hospice help her by giving her, and above all her family, the run by LOROS—the Leicestershire and Rutland reassurance that they would not be prosecuted if they Organisation for the Relief of Suffering—and, similarly, accompanied her to Dignitas. At that point, I could not. the work of the Leicestershire-based children’s hospice, I told her that no one had been prosecuted for many Rainbow. We all want palliative care of that quality to years, but that several people had been interviewed by be available in every part of the country, not just within the police, and not known for months whether they the NHS but funded by the NHS. The Government’s would be prosecuted or not. strategy, if and when it is fully implemented, will do That situation at least has now changed, because of much to achieve that goal. one courageous and determined woman, Debbie Purdy, But palliative care, however good, is not the answer who wanted to know whether her husband would be for everyone. Professor Baroness Finlay, to whose work prosecuted if he went with her to Dignitas. After years in palliative care I readily pay tribute, is a staunch of legal battles, Miss Purdy finally won her case. In his opponent of any change in the law on assisted dying, judgment, Lord Brown said: yet even she has testified that palliative care is not a “What to my mind is needed is a custom-built policy statement blanket panacea. For patients who are terminally ill, indicating the various factors for and against prosecution…factors whose distress cannot be alleviated by palliative care, designed to distinguish between those situations in which, however and who want to end their lives, what is the choice? tempted to assist, the prospective aider and abettor should refrain Given the present state of our law, there is no good answer. from doing so, and those situations in which he or she may fairly For some people—more than 100 Britons since 2002— hope to be, if not commended, at the very least forgiven, rather than condemned, for giving assistance.” the answer lies in a visit to the Dignitas clinic in Switzerland. Some 700 of our fellow citizens are members of that As a result of that decision, the Director of Public organisation. For others, help might come from their Prosecutions, Keir Starmer, issued new prosecuting doctor—sometimes, but not always, acting within the guidelines last month. This final policy, unlike the interim present law. Professor Clive Seale, who has researched guidelines, was broadly welcomed by supporters and this issue in great detail, found that around one in opponents of a change in the law, which I believe is 500 deaths in the United Kingdom—more than 1,000 a testament to a difficult job very well done. year—were the result of voluntary euthanasia, involving At their heart, the new prosecuting guidelines distinguish a criminal act. Even more—over 1,500 deaths a year— between compassionate assistance given to someone involved non-voluntary euthanasia. Other desperate people who has reached find that they have to refuse food and water—a wretched “a voluntary, clear, settled and informed decision to commit process—in order to exercise some control over when suicide”, and how they die. And each year, a number of terminally and malicious, irresponsible or organised help. But the ill people—it is impossible to say how many—resort in new guidelines, although very welcome, are not the end desperation to violent, lonely and often botched suicides. of the matter. Indeed, the DPP, in his entirely proper 403 Law on Assisted Suicide10 MARCH 2010 Law on Assisted Suicide 404 determination to avoid usurping the role of Parliament choice? My late second husband, John, died in the by creating a new regulatory regime for assisted suicide, Marie Curie hospice in Bradford. It was his choice, and might well have created a fresh set of problems. For I appreciate the great care that it gave him. instance, the new guidelines make no reference at all to the victim having Ms Hewitt: My hon. Friend makes an extremely “a terminal illness or a severe degenerative physical condition important point, drawing on her own personal experience. from which there was no possibility of recovery”. She is absolutely right. Experience in the state of Oregon Those words appeared in the consultation draft, but and in the Netherlands, for example, shows that wonderful they have been dropped from the final guidelines. I am palliative care, far from being reduced or diminished by not sure how widely it is appreciated that the guidelines a change in the law to allow assisted dying, is actually go much further than the cases of terminal illness that increased by it. Miss Purdy and Dignity in Dying, in particular, were For all the reasons that I have set out, I have come to seeking to deal with. the conclusion that we need a royal commission—an Furthermore, the new guidelines, unlike the consultation independent inquiry of that stature—to look at the draft, make no reference to residency requirements, so evidence from places that have already legalised assisted we may find that some people living in jurisdictions that dying, to consider the numbers of British people seeking are significantly more hostile to assisted dying will in an assisted death either here or abroad, to examine the future travel to the UK to commit suicide with the help position of medical and nursing staff under present law, of friends or relatives, just as some Britons now travel to and to make proposals on how vulnerable people might Switzerland to seek a legal, medically assisted death. best be protected from abuse or exploitation if the law Most worryingly of all, the new guidelines create a were to be changed. Such a report could then form the greater risk of prosecution for members of the medical basis for the wider debate that we need, not just among and other caring professions. Unlike the initial draft, the public but above all in Parliament, about the best they specifically state that prosecution is more likely if way forward. “the suspect was acting in his or her capacity as a medical doctor, Late though it is in the present Parliament, I urge my nurse, other healthcare professional or carer”. hon. Friend the Minister to do her best to persuade the In the words of Professor Penney Lewis of the centre of Lord Chancellor of the merits of this proposal. I for medical law and ethics at King’s College, London, the one have no doubt that it is no longer a question of guidelines whether the law will change but a question of when it will change, and I hope that this evening’s debate will be “are designed to ensure that assistance in suicide remains an another small step towards that end. amateur activity carried out by inexperienced individuals without the assistance of professionals”, thus increasing the risk, of course, of more desperate 7.20 pm but botched suicide attempts. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice The Medical Protection Society, which provides (Claire Ward): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the professional and legal support to around half of all UK Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt) on securing doctors, tells me that in the last few years it has received the debate. The law in this area arouses strong and a growing number of queries from doctors concerned deeply divided views—across the political divide—the about how to care for a dying patient. It has no policy public, the media and many Members of the House. In position on the issue of assisted suicide, but it does Parliament the debate has taken place mostly in the want legal certainty for its members, and it fears that, other place, and it is therefore good for the House of under the new guidelines, a doctor might be risking Commons to have an opportunity to contribute to it. prosecution—for instance, by providing the medical However, we are clearly still a long way from reaching a records and certificate of fitness to travel required for a consensus. visit to Dignitas. Under section 2(1) of the Suicide Act 1961, as amended No prosecuting guidelines, however sensitively and by section 59 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, it is carefully drafted, can be a substitute for clarity in the an offence to do an act capable of encouraging or law. Above all, they can deal with the situation only assisting the suicide or attempted suicide of another after someone has received help to die. They cannot person with the intention to so encourage or assist. The provide any safeguards in advance—the safeguards that Government believe that any change in the law is an I, Dignity in Dying and most of the public believe are issue of individual conscience, and is rightly a matter needed to protect vulnerable people from exploitation for Parliament rather than Government policy to decide. or unscrupulous pressure. The Government therefore take a neutral view when This issue is not going to go away. I am one of the others seek to change the law, which means that we, as baby boomer generation that has been responsible for the Government, should neither stand in the way of initiating and creating so much social change. As this such a change nor actively pursue it. generation faces the end of our parents’ lives and then The same applies to the law applying to the closely begins to confront the end of our own lives, I believe related issue of mercy killing, which has been highlighted that we will insist on change in this area, too. by recent cases of which all Members will have learnt from the media. As we have observed this evening and Mrs. Ann Cryer (Keighley) (Lab): On a point of in broader discussions, assisted suicide and mercy killing clarification, does my right hon. Friend agree that the often form part of the same debate, but, while both excellent palliative care provided by the hospice movement raise difficult moral issues, there is an important distinction and a possible acceptance of assisted suicide are not between them. Intentionally taking another person’s life mutually exclusive, but could provide a legitimate end-of-life is murder, unless a partial defence applies to reduce the 405 Law on Assisted Suicide10 MARCH 2010 Law on Assisted Suicide 406

[Claire Ward] looked at in great detail by a Select Committee from March 2004 to March 2005, but the Committee did not offence to manslaughter. Helping another person to take a position either way on the central issue. take his or her own life is covered by the offence of My right hon. Friend also contends that a change in encouraging or assisting suicide. the law is necessary to bring it into line with the practice As my right hon. Friend said, the Law Commission of the Director of Public Prosecutions. As she said this made a recommendation in relation to mercy killing in evening, it is often reported that the Crown Prosecution its 2006 report “Murder, Manslaughter and Infanticide”, Service has failed to prosecute more than 100 cases which constituted the first of two stages of a review of where people have been given assistance to travel to the homicide law. The issue of mercy killing fell within the Dignitas clinic in Switzerland. However, in its judgment scope of the Law Commission’s review, but only to the in the Purdy case, the Court of Appeal referred to extent that it related to the grounds for reducing a more evidence given by the CPS that, as far as it could serious offence to a less serious offence of homicide, ascertain, only eight such cases were ever referred to it and it was considered in that context. The underlying and all but one failed to meet the level of evidence ethical question of whether it should be legalised was required for a prosecution. outside the commission’s terms of reference. The Since that evidence was produced, I am told that one commission recommended that the Government undertake further case has been considered and not prosecuted on a public consultation on whether, and if so to what public interest grounds. So, there are not in fact a large extent, the law should recognise either an offence of number of cases in which the CPS has decided that mercy killing or a partial defence of mercy killing. We there was sufficient evidence of an offence but decided said at the time that any change to the law in relation to not to prosecute. As hon. Members will know, following mercy killing was an issue of conscience and one for a 12-week public consultation on the interim policy Parliament to decide, and, as I have said, that remains issued last September, the CPS published at the end of our view. last month a policy for prosecutors in respect of cases of assisted suicide. It sets out the factors that prosecutors Let me now address the law on assisting suicide. will consider when deciding whether or not it is in the Whether there are any circumstances in which it should public interest to prosecute someone for encouraging or be legal to assist another person to die is also a highly assisting suicide. controversial issue. It raises huge ethical questions, to which there are no easy answers. My postbag at the It is not the case that in publishing such a policy the Ministry of Justice reflects the real concerns of members DPP has in effect changed the law. As the policy makes of the public about the issue, and the extent to which it clear, it is not for the director to change the law and nor polarises opinion. I receive many passionate letters on can he give any prospective immunity from prosecution. both sides of the debate, not only about the issues The director himself has made this point strongly and raised by my right hon. Friend but about the personal with the utmost clarity. Neither is it the case that, in circumstances raised by my hon. Friend the Member exercising his discretion in deciding whether to prosecute for Keighley (Mrs. Cryer). Even if one accepts that the someone for assisting suicide, the director is doing law should change, there is no consensus on where a line anything now that he was not doing before the policy should be drawn or on what safeguards should be in for prosecutors was published. Under section 2(4) of place, and for whom. the Suicide Act 1961, there has always been a requirement for the director’s consent to a prosecution for a section 2 My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, West offence. In exercising that discretion, he has always had contends that terminally ill, mentally competent adults to weigh up the public interest factors for and against who are suffering at the end of their lives should have prosecution on the facts of individual cases. the choice of an assisted death, within safeguards. I am Many of those who oppose any change in the law are of course aware of opinion polls suggesting that there is concerned that it would weaken the protection that the strong public support for such a change in the law and I law affords the most vulnerable people in society. They do not doubt the compassion that drives those who believe that no safeguards, however stringent, could believe so strongly in that view. No one could fail to ever eliminate the possibility that a vulnerable person sympathise with those who are faced with the sort of might feel pressure, whether real or imagined, to end difficult decisions that none of us would ever want to their life. make, but even the most limited step in this area would fundamentally change the principle we have held to so Ms Hewitt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her far on the ethics of assisted suicide. thoughtful response to the debate, but I hope that she I am not saying it is a step we in Parliament and as a will accept that the current law provides no safeguards country should not take, nor do I want in any way to whatever in relation to the rather large number of minimise the suffering individuals face and the wish of deaths that Professor Seale found involved a criminal some of them to end their lives, but we should not act, however compassionate the motive, on the part of underestimate the magnitude of any change that says the doctor or other medical practitioner. More broadly, that we can help people to kill themselves rather than does she accept that the case for Government neutrality merely helping them to withstand their suffering. that she is making might well apply to initiating a change in the law, but does not apply to establishing a Proposals to change the law have been debated in royal commission, which I have suggested? another place on a number of occasions, but none of the private Members’ Bills introduced there has progressed Claire Ward: I shall discuss the royal commission in a further than Second Reading despite the fact that the moment. Other possible assisted suicide incidences were Bills would only have affected the terminally ill and covered in exactly the same way by the Director of were progressively narrower in scope. The issue was also Public Prosecutions in relation to the decision on whether 407 Law on Assisted Suicide10 MARCH 2010 Law on Assisted Suicide 408 to prosecute. The Government remain neutral on that investigation to assist Parliament in considering this and it will remain a matter for Parliament. issue. As she has said, this matter was debated in the Let me return to the factors that the Crown Prosecution other place as recently as 3 February, when my ministerial Service take into account when deciding whether to colleague, Lord Bach, responded for the Government. prosecute. One factor in the interim policy was whether Hon. Members might want to read the Official Report the victim had a terminal illness, a severe, incurable of that full debate on these difficult issues. Time does physical disability or a severe degenerative physical not permit me to go into exactly what was said, but condition from which there was no possibility of recovery. holding an independent inquiry on the issue is not as During the consultation on the CPS policy, that issue straightforward as it might seem. Neither can there be was one of those most commented on. Many respondents any certainty that such an inquiry would reach consensus. to the public consultation felt that including that factor We cannot reach consensus in this House or in another gave the impression that the lives of people who are place because there are such differing views across affected in those ways were less valued in the interim parties and public opinion, so I wonder why anyone policy. Although the CPS did not accept some of the would believe that a royal commission or any other arguments that were made, it recognised that any factor independent inquiry could come to a settled view on that might suggest that the act of encouraging or assisting this incredibly difficult matter. I understand my right the suicide of someone who was suffering in such a way hon. Friend’s frustrations but I cannot give any commitment was somehow less serious, simply by virtue of the to establish a commission or other independent inquiry. victim’s physical condition, was inappropriate for inclusion The legal, administrative, practical and resource in the final policy and so that factor was removed. The implications of making any change to the law in this final policy is more focused on the motives of the highly controversial area are considerable. We cannot suspect rather than on the characteristics of the person do justice to this issue in this short time, and it cannot who committed or attempted to commit suicide. There be resolved in the short time remaining in this Parliament, is a distinction to be made between the law and prosecution but I have no doubt that the debate will continue in one policy, but the level of public concern about the inclusion form or another in the next Parliament. In the mean of that factor in the interim policy is indicative of the time, I thank hon. and right hon. Members for their concern that might be felt about any proposal to change valuable contributions to this incredibly important debate. the law. Question put and agreed to. My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, West, and others in another place, have suggested that 7.34 pm there should be a royal commission or other independent House adjourned.

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for anyone who wants to go through the history of what Westminster Hall happened and the situation facing the islanders. A film by John Pilger, “Stealing a Nation”, was shown on Wednesday 10 March 2010 television and it is continually shown at other places. It is an important film, because it describes the brutality of the removal of the islanders. [MR.GEORGE HOWARTH in the Chair] The islanders were paid some compensation and I will come back to that issue in a moment. However, I do British Indian Ocean Territory not believe that the compensation was anywhere near satisfactory. So we then have to look at the legal situation Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting facing the islanders and their unquenchable desire for be now adjourned.—(Mr. Watts.) the right of return to their homelands, which is a right that is set out in international law and which is certainly Mr. George Howarth (in the Chair): It might be a moral cause and a justification. convenient for those present for this debate if I announce at the start that I intend to commence the wind-ups at The background is that when the new colony was 10.30 am, which is the usual time to commence the formed in 1965, to make way for the US base, there was wind-ups in these debates. If those who wish to catch a separation of the administration from Mauritius and my eye bear that in mind when they make their Mauritius became independent in 1968. The detachment contributions, that would be very helpful. of the islands from Mauritius was in breach of the UN General Assembly resolution 1514 of 1960. The 9.30 am compensation paid to the islanders was minimal and in any event much of it was taken away by dishonest land Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I am very dealers and others from the population who continue to pleased to secure this debate today on the British Indian live in Mauritius and indeed in the Seychelles. I myself Ocean Territory. It is timely and very important, and I have been to Mauritius and I have met the islanders in look forward with great interest to hearing the Minister’s their homes there. I must say that they live in considerable reply, because therein hangs the possibility of bringing poverty. about some real justice for people who, in my view, have One should pay tribute to the spirit of the islanders, been denied justice for a very long time. both those who are living in Mauritius and in the The British Indian Ocean Territory consists of Diego Seychelles, and to the Chagos Refugee Association and Garcia and an archipelago of islands some distance its iconic leader, Olivier Bancoult. Indeed, one must away from Diego Garcia. The population of those also pay tribute to the members of the Chagos community islands have suffered a sorry tale of ill treatment, deception who have more recently come to live in this country, and injustice, caused by British and US policies and a predominantly in Crawley, which is represented by my high degree of secrecy and obfuscation by various hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Laura Moffatt), Governments over a very long time. Everyone now who is present in Westminster Hall today for this debate. recognises that the way that the islanders were treated I understand that she wishes to contribute to the debate was fundamentally wrong and many, many apologies later on. Those Chagossians have also made their presence have been offered to them. The islands were part of the felt and raised a number of issues. However, as far as I British Indian ocean colonies throughout the 19th century. am concerned, this is a debate about the legal process Essentially, they were places where copra was grown and the right of return. and some fishing was done. Their population had a In 1999, Olivier Bancoult, on behalf of the Chagos virtually sustainable lifestyle. Refugee Association, sought a judicial review of the In the 1960s, the United States was casting around April 1971 Immigration Ordinance, which meant that for a base in the Indian ocean, to have a site that its anyone visiting the British Indian Ocean Territory required cargo planes, ships and submarines could use as a naval a permit. The High Court judgment of November 2000 facility in the Indian ocean as part of its Vietnam war found that ordinance to be unlawful. The then Foreign effort. The then US President, Lyndon Johnson, and Secretary, Robin Cook, accepted that judgment and the then British Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, came amended the British Indian Ocean Territory constitution to an agreement that Diego Garcia could be used as a to allow the Chagossians to visit BIOT, except Diego US base and a lease arrangement was agreed. That was Garcia, and the Foreign Office said that it would press done in a considerable degree of secrecy and additional for resettlement feasibility studies. requirements were made that the outer islands, as well Rather strangely, just under four years later on election as the island of Diego Garcia itself, should be depopulated. day 2004, the then Foreign Secretary, who is the current The population was systematically moved away and Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor, my effectively dumped on the Seychelles and Mauritius. right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw), The islanders’ case was taken up in the British Parliament announced that the Queen had agreed on two Orders in by Robin Cook, who in 1970 was a newly elected Council, one on the constitution and the other on Labour MP, and Tam Dalyell, who was also a Member immigration, which effectively negated the High Court of Parliament at that time and who only retired at the decision of 2000. The matter was never put before 2005 election. Both of them showed enormous support Parliament, because an Order in Council does not have for the principle of justice for the islanders and for the to be put before Parliament. suffering that they had been through. Olivier Bancoult then applied for a judicial review in Many newspaper articles and some books have been the summer of 2006. Lord Justice Hooper and Mr Justice written on the subject. I recommend a recent book by Cresswell quashed the Orders in Council. Leave to David Vine, “Island of Shame”. It is a very good read appeal was granted to the then Foreign Secretary, my 73WH British Indian Ocean Territory10 MARCH 2010 British Indian Ocean Territory 74WH

[Jeremy Corbyn] the Seychelles, or having made their homes in this country, mainly in Crawley—looked on as that expensive right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn. In May 2007, procedure went ahead. Why can we not recognise that a the Master of the Rolls and Lord Justices Waller and fundamentally immoral injustice has been done? Sedley upheld the High Court judgment on the grounds that the Orders in Council were an abuse of power, Peter Bottomley (Worthing, West) (Con): I agree with repugnant, irrational and unlawful. every word that has been said. I put it to the hon. Leave to appeal was refused, but the then Foreign Gentleman that it is not only immoral; it is also impractical. Secretary petitioned the House of Lords and eventually It will not work in the end, so the sooner we find a the House of Lords agreed to hear an appeal. In October resolution, the better. Have the Americans given any 2008, three of the five Law Lords held that the Orders indication whether they still support our Government’s were valid because the right of abode may lawfully be resistance, or have the British Government decided by displaced for the time being in the interests of defence, themselves to dig in their feet and not move? but there was no reason why the ban should not be Jeremy Corbyn: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his lifted if circumstances changed. In fact, there is no intervention and his support for the all-party group on defence or security reason why Chagossians should not the Chagos islands, which I chair and of which he is an resettle on the outer islands, which are, after all, 130 miles active member. It looks increasingly as though the away from Diego Garcia. That verdict was a majority British Government on their own are pursuing the rather verdict by the Law Lords. bizarre line that it is impossible to resettle the An application was lodged, which is now before the archipelago—as I said, it is 130 miles away from Diego European Court of Human Rights, alleging breaches of Garcia—due to security issues. The case is being taken articles 3, 6, 8, 13 and article 1 of protocol 1 of the up in the United States. Members of the Senate and European convention on human rights. That application House are being lobbied heavily on the subject, as is the was held pending and resumed in 2009. Last June, the Administration. I get the increasing impression that the Court suggested that an out-of-court settlement should British Government are on their own in the matter. be made, but that suggestion was rejected by the Foreign Office. The Foreign Office submitted its observations in Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): The hon. Gentleman July 2009, and subsequently in October 2009 and January is making a strong case. He is arguing on moral grounds 2010. The applicants submitted their observations on at the moment. From a British perspective, I think that 23 October 2009 and in February 2010. we all believe that Britain should uphold the highest If the Court decides that the case is admissible, it will moral standards. Does he agree that although we are hear the case probably in early summer. There is no debating the rights of the Chagossians, the British impediment to the Foreign Office settling the case out Government are lowering our own moral standards by of court. I hope that, when the Minister replies to the associating themselves with actions on Diego Garcia? It debate, he can explain to all of us—the public as well as was eventually wrung out of the Americans that they the House—why we are spending millions of pounds of had been using the island for the rendition of prisoners. taxpayers’ money on endless legal cases, challenging Surely, if we in this country are to uphold the highest every application made by the islanders and now challenging possible moral standards, we must above all protect and the case in the European Court of Human Rights. fight for the islanders’ right to return as well as opposing the use of the islands in that manner. Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): I very much agree Mr. George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. I appeal to with what the hon. Gentleman has said in his doughty those who want to take part in this debate that, tempting defence of these people. Does he agree with me that, in though it is to make a short speech during an intervention, the context of, for example, the Constitutional Governance the convention is that interventions should be brief and Bill, which says that it seeks to deal with questions of to the point. prerogative and treaties to ensure that Parliament has a much greater say in these matters, it is simply outrageous Jeremy Corbyn: Even if they are good short speeches, to have a situation in which the prerogative is used to Mr. Howarth, I understand your point. achieve this tangle and undergrowth of injustice and in The hon. Gentleman is also an extremely active member which, as the hon. Gentleman said, millions and millions of the all-party group. I have two points to make in of pounds are being spent for reasons that do not seem response to his intervention. The first involves the moral to be clear to anybody, except to make the position case and the damage that such activities do to this worse for the inhabitants of the countries concerned? country’s moral standing. I was at the United Nations Human Rights Council a few years ago when the Chagos Jeremy Corbyn: The hon. Gentleman is correct that a islanders came in considerable numbers as a delegation full democracy—I look forward to this country’s becoming of indigenous people denied the right to return to their one—would allow Parliament the right to challenge homeland. I found it embarrassing to be there as a decisions made by Ministers. In this case, the Foreign Member of the British Parliament while a delegation Secretary asked the Queen to authorise the Orders in stated that they had been denied the right to live on Council, bypassing Parliament. That cannot be right their own islands by a series of decisions made in under any circumstances. Britain as part of a colonial legacy or hangover. The Having sat through many of the High Court cases, I Chagossians were there to petition the United Nations. found it poignant to see the Foreign Secretary’s barrister Of course they had every right to petition the United defending with great authority and gusto what I believe Nations—I was there to support them—but I wondered to be an unjustifiable, immoral position while a court what it was doing to this country’s moral standing full of Chagos islanders—now living in Mauritius or in the world. 75WH British Indian Ocean Territory10 MARCH 2010 British Indian Ocean Territory 76WH

My second point concerns Diego Garcia. It is not being established, they combine an absolute ban on the part of the case that the islanders should be able to taking of organisms or fish and limited quotas and resettle in large numbers, or indeed any numbers, on sustainable fishing arrangements. Diego Garcia, because of the arrangements to lease Consultations on marine protection zones around most of the island for the US base. However, we should UK islands rightly have to involve the local communities remember that Diego Garcia is at this moment, in law, a and fishing communities. It is obvious that to achieve British Indian Ocean Territory. It is a British possession, such a zone, there must be consultation. The proposals if that is the right word. The Americans were eventually for the marine protection zone around the Chagos forced to admit that they had been using the island for islands include that there be no take and that, apparently, extraordinary rendition flights. When that came out, no consultation with anybody other than a fraternity of the Foreign Secretary, who had clearly not been informed biologists and scientists. I have great respect for biologists of it by the United States, was forced to apologise to the and scientists and for what they are trying to achieve, House. I would imagine that he was extremely embarrassed, but experience shows that conserving natural resources and probably very angry, at having to do so, as he had and ecosystems is best done by involving the local been told constantly that the islands were not being population. The experience of nature reserves in Africa, used for extraordinary rendition. A degree of openness Latin America and the Caribbean islands is that if a is necessary on the issue. Government ordain that a certain area is a total Moving to the case at present, a legal debate is going environmental protection zone, which no one may enter, on. I have argued that the legal case is strong for the poachers come in and illegal activities happen. That islanders’ right to return. I fervently hope that they win leads to an army or security force creating a war zone to their case at the European Court of Human Rights. protect the zone. Achieving the co-operation of local When the hearing takes place, some time this year, I people works very well, as in Madagascar. intend to be there to support the islanders and watch I was happy to accept an invitation to Royal Holloway the process in the Court. If the islanders win at the college in January to discuss these very matters. ECHR, as they probably will, the British Government—it will be after the election—will either have to accept that Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): The approach decision or introduce yet more legislation in the House my hon. Friend describes presumes that people want to to try to negate it. That can be avoided if the Foreign destroy their own environment. They are fighting to get Office climbs down, accepts that there is an overwhelming back so that they can protect their environment. Is this case for the right of return and discusses with the not colonialism gone mad? islanders and the Chagossian community in the UK how it could be carried out, the cost, who would pay for Jeremy Corbyn: I suppose it could be called eco- it and the environmental impact on the islands. colonialism. The best people in the world to protect the environment of the Chagos islands are the Chagos Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I islanders; they are the people who love and understand commend the hon. Gentleman on the timeliness of this the place, and the ones who would look after it. debate and his long-running campaign on the issue. Does he think that the problem for this and any subsequent Mr. John Grogan (Selby) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend Government is that they have got themselves on the agree that the Prime Minister of Mauritius hit the nail hook of not wanting to resolve the issue? The European on the head in asking: Court of Human Rights might find that the Government “How can you say you will protect coral and fish when you must move. Does he agree that having been boxed into a continue to violate the rights of Chagos’s former inhabitants?”? corner, the Government appear reluctant to get themselves A less generous man than my hon. Friend might say off the hook rather than implicate themselves even that what is happening could be interpreted as a cynical further as the years go on? move to negate any possible judgment of the European Court later this year. Jeremy Corbyn: The box is of the Government’s own making from 2004 onwards. The previous Foreign Secretary, Jeremy Corbyn: As my hon. Friend says, I am far too Robin Cook, who had a good record on the issue, generous to impute such motives to others in these declined to appeal against the decision in 2000, so it matters. I will leave hon. Members to form their views stood. In 2004, the Orders in Council were introduced. on that. It seems necessary for all of us to help the Foreign I support the zone and, as far as I am aware, the Office get out of the box in which it put itself in 2004. islander communities in this country and in Mauritius Going through endless appeals and incurring incredible support it, too. It is in nobody’s interest to destroy the legal costs is not the way to do so. The way is through environment or ecosystem. There should be sustainable discussion, conciliation and arrangements for a proper living by the islanders who wish to return. I do not return to the islands. know how many there will be, but the number will be Proposals have been made, which I support, for the much smaller than tens of thousands. It is the right of establishment of a marine protection zone around the return that is so important and that, in particular, is Chagos islands. They are a unique and pristine environment. what this debate is about. uninhabited except for itinerant yachtspeople who I hope that in his reply, the Minister will acknowledge apparently call there from time to time. Some fishing the anger and outrage of islanders. The feasibility studies also takes place, and an income is received from issuing have been designed to create the aura that incredible fishing licences. The idea of a marine protection zone expense and infrastructure would be required, in order arises from the legislation passed by the House recently. to detract from the possibility of the islanders ever In all other cases where marine protection zones are returning to the islands. I ask the Minister to look again 77WH British Indian Ocean Territory10 MARCH 2010 British Indian Ocean Territory 78WH

[Jeremy Corbyn] in retirement, has given a lot of energy and support to the Chagossian community and to the case for their at the issue, in particular at how the islanders have been right of return. treated and at the possibility of reaching a quick out-of- Finally, I mention again Olivier Bancoult, the chairman court settlement so that we can move on. We should of the Chagos refugees group, whom I know well and have the marine protection zone, which would be a have known for many years. It is remarkable that this legacy of the British Government and Prime Minister, small community, which was taken from its islands all but that should be part of a wider settlement package those years ago and literally dumped in Mauritius and that gives the islanders the right of return. the Seychelles, did not spread asunder over the world, go to the four winds and disappear as an entity, but has Andrew George: Does the hon. Gentleman acknowledge stayed together and campaigned and petitioned together. that the Foreign Office has identified the exiled Chagossian There was a great sense that justice had been achieved community as one of the stakeholders in the consultation in 2000, when the High Court in Britain gave the for the proposed marine protection zone? Is it not odd islanders the right of return. It is up to us to follow that that the Foreign Office recognises them as stakeholders through. in the environment, but will not let them go back to it? Olivier sent me an e-mail that said: “Regarding the Marine Protected Area we will support it as Jeremy Corbyn: Absolutely. The islanders do not long as it takes into consideration the fundamental right of the have the right of return, but they have recognition as Chagossians. May I ask you to put a request to Foreign Secretary stakeholders who will contribute to the consultation David Miliband who visited a Chagossian group in Crawley, that exercise. It is a non sequitur to say that we will consult he considers meeting all the Chagossian groups as well?” them, but do not trust them to live there. In other I know the Foreign Secretary met Allen Vincatassin, words, we trust their opinions, but do not trust them to who is one of the prominent people in the Chagos look after the place should they have the right of return. community in Crawley, but he should also meet Olivier and his group when he next visits Mauritius. We have a I mentioned that I attended a seminar at Royal Holloway chance to do something good: withdraw the case from college in January. There were 100 scientists and the European Court of Human Rights, reach a settlement, conservationists from around the world who had prepared allow the islanders to return, and protect the environment various petitions and statements. Some supported the and the pristine marine life there by letting the islanders marine conservation zone and others supported it, but themselves look after it. We can right a wrong; we can also wanted the rights of the islanders to be taken on correct an injustice. Apologies and catharsis are a good board. There has been a marked reluctance by some thing, but one has to go the whole way and finish the who support the zone to acknowledge any human case by allowing the islanders to return. I hope the involvement or considerations in the matter, which I Minister can give us some good news when he replies to find extraordinary. the debate. The islanders have made their case. The legal position is that Britain separated the Chagos islands from Mauritius. 10 am As I said, I believe that that was contrary to the UN Laura Moffatt (Crawley) (Lab): I am delighted to General Assembly resolution of the time. There is an take part in the debate and I congratulate my hon. issue about our relations with Mauritius to be resolved. Friend the Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn) I hope that the Minister will say something about the on securing it. This important subject requires proper ongoing discussions with the Mauritius Government. consideration. In Parliament, when we talk about overseas The Foreign Secretary has an interest in considering issues that have a direct impact on our streets in the this matter. I commend him for meeting the Chagossian UK, this matter must be at the top of the agenda. community in this country and hope he will give the Most of us who have grown up understanding the same service to the Chagossian community that lives in injustice that has taken place and how islanders were Mauritius on his next visit. The community in this treated like cattle and removed to Mauritius and the country has lived in some poverty, as I am sure my hon. Seychelles have a great sense of the wrong that has been Friend the Member for Crawley will explain. They have done. Those people were subsequently given access to a been denied access to benefits because of the habitual British passport and turned up in the centre of a town residence test, which is bizarre considering that they are virtually destitute, with just a great sense of hope to see British citizens following an amendment that Tam Dalyell them through. The system let them down in many ways and I tabled at Committee stage of the British Overseas and they needed to be supported, helped and guided Territories Act 2002. I hope it will be recognised that, as through very difficult early days, so it is inspirational to British citizens and passport holders, they are entitled look at that community now. to the same rights as anybody else in our society. That sense of inspiration comes from watching a I have mentioned several people in this debate and community establish itself in the UK and making sure will conclude by recognising two people who should be that it is part of what we are—our fabric—through, for acknowledged and thanked. The first is Richard Gifford, example, participation in the voluntary sector. It is very a lawyer who has shown steadfast support for the special to realise that the children of that community islanders’ right of return over decades. He has been to are doing extremely well at school and that its first Mauritius and the Seychelles on many occasions. He students have gone to university. We need to congratulate has led the case through all the courts and all the that community on establishing itself in such a way. chicanery. Such people, who go far beyond their However, those people are not the only Chagos islanders professional demands, should be recognised, thanked whom we need to consider. Many others have, for and supported. The second person is David Snoxall, the whatever reason, not been able to make that move, and former British high commissioner to Mauritius, who, their views must be considered. 79WH British Indian Ocean Territory10 MARCH 2010 British Indian Ocean Territory 80WH

This matter has given rise to hugely diverse views, Laura Moffatt: I respect and understand my hon. which are deeply and passionately held. We sometimes Friend’s view, but the trouble is that some of the issues become over-excited if we hear someone saying something are often linked to another given. For some of the that does not accord with our particular view, but it is islanders, the given seems to be that sovereignty will be right and proper that I should articulate the views of transferred to Mauritius to allow the right of return, the islanders who have settled in Crawley. I have very and that is where they have a huge difficulty. We need to close contact with those people, and I spend a great deal try to separate out these matters. I utterly agree that if of time listening to the issues that have become a we start from the basic right of return and look at the running sore for them. The work to secure visits to the overlying issues, many of those will relate to the differences island has been tremendous for the community—not between those who come from different islands. I am only for the two groups of six that were able to visit the constantly amazed by the differing views, which depend islands and come back with their reports of that pristine on the island from which someone hails. The Diego environment, which I understand everyone wants to Garcian community has a different view, for example, protect, but for those who could not travel, as they from islanders from Peros Banhos. I have no doubt that attended presentations to see the beautiful pictures. that will continue because it is human nature, but politicians That, however, is not good enough. No one can need to be mindful lest they just bundle up the islanders survive on a dream that existed decades ago. For the and assume that they have a single opinion. It is untrue community, creating contact between the islands and that there is one single viewpoint, and we need to take those who have been removed—who may still be in proper account of that. Mauritius and the Seychelles or in the United Kingdom—is We are faced with a community that, after a sticky vital. I firmly believe that people must have a choice start, is doing extremely well in the United Kingdom. about the right of return. That is the cornerstone of all One of the sickest sights I have ever seen was that of the work that has taken place, but it does not mean that honourable and decent people sitting outside the offices everyone will wish to return, and we need to make that of social services because they were being denied basic very clear. benefits, and seeing other people, in effect, campaigning When the court cases were under way, many people against British passport holders. That made me determined who had settled from the islands came to see me to say, to support the Chagossian community in any way I “It doesn’t mean that I’ll have to go back, does it?” They could. I sincerely believed any investment made through felt there was a sense of compulsion about the matter. It social services in that community at that early stage is important that the sense of the right of return remains, would be repaid, and it is being repaid in spades. and that it is achieved. How that is managed is the big The islanders have become part of our cultural history issue we are debating today, which can often become a and part of the community, participating in different little overheated. events and sharing with us a rich culture of music and dance. It is a bright and intelligent community that has Andrew George: The hon. Lady introduced part of contributed to Crawley, so much so that it is easy to be her speech by saying that there are diverse views. Does sucked into the sense of optimism that grew out of a she not accept that, in fact, she is describing two views? very difficult start. Indeed, Alex Morrison, one of the One view is that those Chagossians who choose to do so reporters from our local newspaper, the Crawley News, should have the right of return and resettlement; another now volunteers with the group to help them publicise view is that they should be denied that right. There are their events. Many people have taken the community just two views, not a diversity of views. into their hearts. A film crew is now producing a film about Crawley as Laura Moffatt: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman a town of immigration, called “The Road to Crawley”, for his intervention, but I absolutely disagree, mainly as it is a place where different groups of people have because I have heard many more than two views. It is come to live over the years, since the 1960s, and we are impossible to state that the right of return is just a basic now a diverse town. All those groups that have contributed right of return. There are many permutations of the to our town are being filmed, and the last group to be right of return and the way in which that is managed is filmed is the most recent one to have entered Crawley in crucial. Some people say that the right of return should significant numbers, and is made up of people from the be run through some sort of trust and that those who islands. They have become part of the fabric of the hail from particular islands should have complete control town, and we accept that there is a new group contributing of that. The big issue—where there is great difficulty—is to our lives. that some people do not believe that Mauritius should People in Crawley understand that that community is have sovereignty over the islands. If that is part of the self-sufficient and ambitious, both for themselves and package, it will never satisfy that group. That is why we their children. They still encounter huge difficulties need to have a debate between the communities as well. with language and with having to learn a completely new way of life, but they are determined to overcome Jeremy Corbyn: I have two points to make. First, it them. In addition, they are still concerned about what was very traumatic to watch the film made by the will happen to their islands, which they care about, and 100 people who went on a visit to the islands. Secondly, the families who have been left in Mauritius. does my hon. Friend acknowledge that it is possible to There is a big concern about visas, and I would be separate the issue of the future sovereignty of the interested to hear the Minister comment on that. It is islands from that of the right of return, which is what okay to grant someone from the islands a British passport, we are currently pursuing through the courts? It is but if they have been living in Mauritius the likelihood important that we consider both matters in order, rather that they will marry someone from Mauritius is high, than necessarily as part of one package. and they would then have all the difficulties relating to 81WH British Indian Ocean Territory10 MARCH 2010 British Indian Ocean Territory 82WH

[Laura Moffatt] gentle look at the matter so as not to get to the point at which people are driven to take positions that might be access and the ability to live as a family. That issue is difficult to get out of. I am a huge supporter of the still causing concern and upset among those who have Government, but at times I cringe and wonder why we left the islands. I believe that that needs to be sorted out are continuing to cause difficulties through the courts. as a debt of honour—I know that that word has been Half of me understands that it is about trying to protect used before in the debate, but I firmly believe that it is a position, but at times I believe that we need to look the right terminology for the response to that group of more creatively at how we establish the rights of those people. islanders, particularly before 2014, when we will have to My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North is give a definitive response before the Americans decide right that the Diego Garcian Society met the Foreign what they want to do with Diego Garcia in 2016. We Secretary last week, but it was not the only group to have some time to have those negotiations with all those meet him to discuss the matter. The Chagos islands people, to respect the myriad views on the matter and to groups also met him, which was important, because we settle it once and for all. need to widen participation and hear all the views. One We must ensure that the British Government hold would think that there were only two views if one their head up, because I firmly believe that they have listened to only two groups, but there is actually a dealt with the matter decently and honestly. However, I multiplicity of responses to the cruel effect of removing think that the legal issue is really making mischief people from their homeland and forcing them to create among those who are trying to find a solution. The a new lifestyle for themselves, which the islanders have Foreign and Commonwealth Office has treated the done first in Mauritius and now in the UK. I keep community in Crawley with nothing but dignity and saying it because I mean it: that is a group of people I has offered help, advice and support. It would be difficult greatly admire for the way in which they have managed to argue anything else. Whenever we have requested their lives. meetings and visits, they have been granted. The time With regard to the marine protection zone, no one that those people arrived on the islands on a small could argue that it does not stem from the highest ideal. fishing boat was a moment they will never forget, and I I have seen photographs of those fantastic islands and was pleased that women went along on the second visit, their pristine beaches, although ground is being lost to because the first one was an all-male event. Those visits the Indian ocean, so global warming has clearly had a have enlivened the interest of the community in Crawley huge effect on the islands. They have some fantastic and and ensured that they have a sense of history and of rare wildlife, such as tree frogs, which I had never seen where they come from. before, and beautiful turtles in crystal-clear waters. Part I can only speak for the community that I know and of the reason for that is that no one is allowed to go greatly appreciate in Crawley, so I will conclude my there. One of the pictures shows a sign stating that remarks by stating that it would wish those islands to absolutely no fishing and no trespassing on the beach remain under the protection of the United Kingdom. are allowed. Those environments have been preserved For that community, any other discussion is extremely as a result of removing a community. difficult, so now we see just how difficult the subject is. How then do we allow a degree of involvement by the community in the future of the islands without spoiling 10.19 am that? I can see that there is a purist view, which I think the Chagos Environment Network holds, and I understand Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I congratulate completely where it is coming from. When I received a the hon. Member for Islington, North (Jeremy Corbyn) letter on the matter, I was concerned that there was not on securing this debate. As other Members of the even one name on the list of those campaigning for the House know, he has been a passionate campaigner on marine protection zone, and I wrote back to say so. I this issue for many years, and today he set out the case have been reassured that more consultations are under using his great knowledge of the subject in a powerful way with islanders, but I was disappointed that that did speech. I struggled to find anything in it with which I not involve those communities from the start. In a disagreed. sense, the environment must be preserved in aspic, I reiterate my support and that of many in my party without anyone being able to take part in activities, such for the Chagos islanders’ campaign to be allowed to as fishing, that might benefit the community. return to the outer Chagos islands. On 23 April 2009, Once again, we need to be clear about the community we had a debate in this Chamber on the overseas and who we are going to consult. It is like motherhood territories, when I and other hon. Members noted that and apple pie to say that one must involve the local the Foreign Affairs Committee’s seventh report of Session community, but who will those people be? Will it be the 2007-08 concluded that there is “a strong moral case” Government of Mauritius or just the islanders from the for allowing the Chagossians to return. I stand by my area where the marine park will be established, or will statement then that the Government have acted shamefully we have a wider consultation? That is why it was important in preventing them from returning. that the Diego Garcian Society organised its own ballot I also had an opportunity to raise the issue last so that it could contribute to the debate. I was delighted month in a European Committee debate that covered a to be able to assist by getting a ballot box and ensuring wide range of issues, and at that time the Minister for that the ballot was conducted correctly so that people Europe was firm in his disagreement. I am hopeful that could have their say on the consultation in November. we may get a slightly more positive response from this There are many unanswered questions, and not one Minister. of them can be settled in just one debate, although I In October 2008, the House of Lords ruled that the believe that today we have a good opportunity to have a Government had acted legally when they issued two 83WH British Indian Ocean Territory10 MARCH 2010 British Indian Ocean Territory 84WH

Orders in Council forbidding the Chagos islanders from different views within the Chagossian community, as returning to the outer Chagos islands. The ruling was within any community, as hon. Members know—but it based on a series of statutes in British law which state: is a real problem that the Government have failed to “In a conquered or ceded colony the Crown, by virtue of its consult Chagossians themselves in the many instances prerogative, has full power…to act both executively and legislatively” when one would expect them to be among the first groups to be consulted. regardless of whether its actions are “for the benefit of the inhabitants of that colony.” The Orders in Council that were used to ban Chagossians from their home in 2004 were based on a 2001 feasibility In the 21st century, arguing that the British Government study for resettlement, yet the Chagossians were not can do whatever they like in their overseas territories consulted as part of that study. Nor did the Government without regard for the interests of the inhabitants is consult the Chagossians when they came up with their morally reprehensible, and the law should surely be document on a marine protection area that was published changed. I deeply regret that the Government have not for consultation in November 2009. taken the advice of the European Court of Human Rights and sought a settlement out of court with the Like other hon. Members, I very much support the Chagos islanders that would allow them to return to the creation of an MPA in the Chagos archipelago. However, outer Chagos islands, which, as we have heard, are I am concerned that the Government have sought to 130 miles away from the others. This legal battle has develop a plan for it before a ruling has been received gone on far too long, and it is a stain on Britain’s from Strasbourg on resettlement. I recently signed the reputation. Marine Education Trust’s petition calling for the Government’s plans for an MPA in the Chagos archipelago As has been mentioned, there is also a significant to make provision for the future possible return of the financial cost to the legal battle. In 2008, the Public Chagos islanders to their home. A number of Liberal Accounts Committee estimated that the Government Democrat MPs have signed the petition as well as had spent £2.1 million on the court battle with the early-day motion 960, which was tabled by the hon. Chagos islanders. Since then, there have been appeals to Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington the House of Lords and to the European Court of (Ms Abbott). It carries exactly the same message, and Human Rights, which must have brought the cost to the I encourage any Members who have not signed it to taxpayer much higher still. I urge the Minister to stop do so. wasting money on this legal case, particularly in the current economic situation, and to settle out of court Fishing would be vital to the survival of the Chagossians with the Chagos islanders. if they resettled on the outer islands, and the proposal to make provision for it in the MPA has received I am also greatly concerned that, at every stage of the support from many environmentalists who have signed legal battle, the Government have failed to consult the Marine Education Trust’s petition. The case was put Parliament on their decisions. In 2004, they used the forcefully by the hon. Gentleman that, in conservation Privy Council to issue two Orders in Council banning terms, it is best to involve local communities to ensure anyone from settling in the Chagos archipelago. The that there is a lasting settlement that will protect the announcement was made on 10 June 2004, which was environment, and that everyone has bought into it. called “Super Thursday” with reference to the fact that it was the day of the European Union, local and mayoral Legal advice suggests that declaring an MPA without elections, and therefore was ideally timed to escape the the support of the Chagos islanders and Mauritius attention of politicians, the public and the press. Last would be illegal under the United Nations convention May, the Justice Secretary admitted on BBC Radio 4 on the law of the sea. In a parliamentary answer to that he had “exchanged speed for legitimacy” when he Lord Wallace of Saltaire, Baroness Kinnock wrote that chose to use Orders in Council, because that was “simpler” the MPA must not than putting the decision before Parliament. That is just “impact on the operational capability of the base on Diego not good enough. It may be simpler for the Government, Garcia”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 22 February 2010; but that does not mean that there should not be proper Vol. 717, c. WA234.] accountability in this place. She went on to state that the island may therefore have After the European Court of Human Rights asked to be excluded from the MPA. I would be keen to hear the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to reply by from the Minister how the Government will work with 17 July 2009 stating how it would respond to the the United States Department of Defence to reduce the Chagossians appeal, I was happy to sign early-day impact of the military base on the environment, if that motion 1949, which was tabled by the hon. Member for is the case. Islington, North and signed by 51 other MPs. It called I would like to turn to other impacts of the military on the Government to consult Parliament before the base, particularly the troubling topic of rendition. I am FCO responded, but the FCO went ahead and responded sure that all hon. Members will agree that the use of without Parliament’s being consulted. I hope that the Diego Garcia for extraordinary rendition of terror suspects Minister will explain why the Government do not see fit is deeply disturbing, and that every effort must be made to give parliamentarians a say in such an important to prevent it from happening again. I understand that matter. the US Government have not always been entirely honest The hon. Member for Crawley (Laura Moffatt) made with the UK about the use of Diego Garcia for that an excellent contribution, in particular about her experiences purpose, but surely we have a moral and legal responsibility with the Chagossian community in Crawley. She told to ensure that our territory is not used for such acts. the human story behind the issues of legality and principle To that end, the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie) that can so often be discussed in abstract terms. Of has proposed legislation to tighten the criminal law on course this is not a simple issue—there are myriad extraordinary rendition, and I understand that the proposals 85WH British Indian Ocean Territory10 MARCH 2010 British Indian Ocean Territory 86WH

[Jo Swinson] or so a local television programme is made about it. I am not trying to compare or demean the Chagossian are being considered by the Ministry of Justice. The case, but there are other examples, although theirs is a Justice Secretary has stated that specific one. “The Government would not allow any rendition through UK In reply to an intervention, the hon. Member for territory that would put the UK in breach of its…human rights Crawley (Laura Moffatt) made a good point in a fair obligations”. speech. My experience when talking to many groups of However, we know that past assurances given by the US Chagossians is that there is not one overriding view. Government on the matter have turned out to be false, There is a view about the right to return, but some so I would be keen to hear what the Government are Chagossian groups want to return, some want the right doing to ensure that the US does not use Diego Garcia to return merely as visitors, some have business interests for that purpose. that they would like to develop—I have heard from In conclusion, I make four points to the Minister. some Chagossians that they would like to develop tourism, The Government should drop the legal case against the hotels and so on—and a substantial group wants the Chagos islanders at the European Court of Human island to remain firmly a UK territory, and do not want Rights and settle out of court, as other hon. Members it to be returned to Mauritius. The British Government have suggested. The Government must consult Parliament have said that if the Americans decide to withdraw from on all major decisions concerning the islands, and consult Diego Garcia, responsibility for the island will return to the islanders themselves, the Mauritian Government Mauritius. I am making the point to show that, as the and other stakeholders where it is clearly appropriate. hon. Lady fairly said, and I am certain that the hon. They should make provision in any MPA for the Chagos Gentleman agrees, the issue is complex, not simple. islanders to fish in local waters should they resettle in Responsibility for resolving it must be with the British the outer islands. Finally, they must take concrete measures Government. to prevent the use of the British Indian Ocean Territory The US-UK military presence is also an issue. The and, indeed, any others, for extraordinary rendition. I UK presence is tiny on Diego Garcia. The issue has hope that the Minister will be able to respond positively been highlighted by accusations of extraordinary rendition, to those points. and I do not want to go into the details, but it has highlighted the fact that the overall relationship between 10.28 am the United Kingdom and the United States is not always open and honest in the exchange of policy and Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): It is a pleasure intelligence. to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Howarth. I congratulate the hon. Member for Islington, North The crucial point about the military presence on (Jeremy Corbyn) on raising this issue. He has been Diego Garcia, as the hon. Lady said, is that by 2014, tireless over many years in doing so, as have other we must consider proposals for any revisions of the colleagues. Like the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire agreement—2016 is the cut-off date—and that is only (Jo Swinson), I was also present when we touched on four years away. My best guess in 2010 is that it is highly the Chagos islands in the debate on the Foreign Affairs unlikely that the United States will want to withdraw Committee’s report and also in the European Committee. completely from Diego Garcia, because of the way in which the world has changed. I am not talking just The hon. Gentleman said that this debate is about the about the conflict in Afghanistan. If one talks to people Chagossians’ legal right to return to the islands. He also in the State Department and the Pentagon, they see said—I hope that I took this down correctly—that the Diego Garcia as being even more crucial both as a base British Government are, on their own, pursuing a case for moving aircraft in and out—a supply base—and, as on a security issue all the way through the law courts. I they see it, a strategic balance of power in the Indian shall return to that in a few minutes. ocean. My best guess is that in 2014 the United States It seems to me that there are several interlocking will not want to withdraw. That will be a big attention- issues here, with justice for the Chagossians being at the grabber for the British Government, the Foreign Office centre of them. While listening to the debate, I heard and the Ministry of Defence. the outrage of many hon. Members here, as well as during previous debates, about the way in which the Jeremy Corbyn: Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge Chagossians were removed from the islands and are that the archipelago is a long way from Diego Garcia— unable to return, but their case is not unique. When I 130 miles—and that it is bizarre to argue that there is a first went to Gibraltar—as a military historian, I am defence and security requirement on islands that are the ashamed to say this—I did not realise that in the equivalent of one third of the distance from here to summer of 1940, around 90 per cent. of Gibraltarians Paris, for example? were forcibly removed. Many went to the Azores, and Mr. Simpson: Yes. The hon. Gentleman got in just some were brought to London because it was thought ahead of me. The Chagossians have made that point, to be safe. There was a certain irony in that because they and there is a genuine question for the Foreign Office lived in tenement flats and hotels in Pimlico, and then and the Ministry of Defence here, and the State Department had to endure the blitz. By 1945, they were allowed and the Department of Defence in the United States to back, but tens of thousands of people were involved. answer. Do they believe, objectively, that if the Chagossians In Norfolk—there are similar cases in Yorkshire returned and there were some form of economic and, of course, on Salisbury plain—at the beginning of development, there would be a threat to their security? the war, the army took over the Stamford battle area What sort of threat do they believe there would be? It near Thetford. Many people in villages were forcibly should be discussed to decide whether it is credible. The removed and have never been allowed back. That is Department of Defence may well say that there is no one of the little footnotes in history, and every 10 years such threat, and that if there were it could be monitored. 87WH British Indian Ocean Territory10 MARCH 2010 British Indian Ocean Territory 88WH

We have reached the stage where the sort of secret with dignity and respect. As my hon. Friend said, as a agreements and discussions that we were able to have result of its efforts, the community is beginning to do 40 years ago under consecutive Governments—this is well. A manifestation of that is the fact that some young not a party political issue; it was a Government to Chagossians have the opportunity to go into higher Government matter—cannot continue in quite the same education, perhaps for the first time. That is always a way. There will be issues of confidentiality, but whoever sign of a community that is progressing and moving are the Government after the general election will have forward. to consider the matter. There can be no doubt about the responsibility and The whole business of economic development of the culpability of this country for the decisions that were area is crucial, and the hon. Gentleman and the hon. made in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s. Because of that, we Lady made the point that some crucial issues will arise owe it to the Chagossian community to ensure that we if some Chagossians want to return, particularly the behave appropriately and in a way that, while remaining development of the fishing industry. Mauritius also has consistent with our interests, is also sensitive to our an interest, and a matter in the documentation that responsibilities. worries me is the marine protection area. If the United The key issue raised during the debate was the right Kingdom decided eventually to hand back the islands of return, and in that context it is important to look at to Mauritius, I am not certain whether Mauritius the different legal processes that have taken place and would be legally liable to continue the MPA. That will explain why the Government felt that they wished to be crucial from the point of view not only of the pursue the case legally. The first example of that, as my Chagossians, but of any investment that the United hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North mentioned, Kingdom and other partners have made in the development was when the Foreign Secretary made the decision to of the area. appeal the case to the House of Lords following other There is a series of connected issues, and I conclude court decisions. by saying that we must put the interests of the Chagossians The reasons for that decision were threefold. First, at the heart of them. I do not believe that the Foreign following an independent feasibility study, we were Office has entirely ignored them, but they have tended convinced that lasting resettlement would be precarious to be of second or third-level importance. That cannot and, if sponsored by the Government, entail expensive continue. I am trying not to be too parti pris, but we underwriting by the British taxpayer over an open-ended, know pretty well that there will be a general election on probably permanent period. Secondly, restoration of 6 May, given the announcement about the Budget, and full immigration control over the entire territory was if the consequence of that election is that my party necessary to ensure the availability and full effectiveness finds itself in Government, I think we would want to of the territory for defence purposes, particularly in the revisit the whole issue with an open mind, because we light of a change in security circumstances since 2000 cannot continue the present policy, given all the points and our treaty obligations to the United States. Thirdly, that have been made by hon. Members today. the Court of Appeal’s judgment raised issues of Finally, one of the first things that the newly constituted constitutional law that we believed to be of general Select Committee on Foreign Affairs should do in the public importance. For those reasons, the Foreign Secretary new Parliament is to consider the whole issue of the felt at the time that it was appropriate to appeal the case Chagos islands and all the matters that we have discussed to the House of Lords. today. I again congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the A lot of concern has been expressed today about the way in which he raised this important issue. feasibility of resettlement and about defence, and during the debate, hon. Members have questioned the basis for our position on those issues. The independent study 10.38 am conducted in 2000 came down heavily against the feasibility The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth of resettlement—I do not know whether hon. Members Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): It is a tremendous pleasure to have had an opportunity to see that report. Although it serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Howarth. I pay concluded that short-term habitation for limited numbers tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, on a subsistence basis would be possible, it emphasised North (Jeremy Corbyn) for securing this debate, and for that any long-term resettlement would, in reality, be his passion and long-standing advocacy on an issue that precarious and costly. Hon. Members who are well disturbs any reasonable hon. Member, whatever their informed will be aware that the outer islands—the roles and responsibilities. This is not part of my ministerial largest of which is about the size of Hyde park—have portfolio, so I am new to the matter, but I considered been uninhabited for nearly 40 years and have no basic some of the issues when preparing for this debate, and facilities or infrastructure. Therefore, in terms of objectivity, the historical treatment of Chagossians by the British that feasibility study came out heavily against resettlement. Government at the time is a scar on our history. It was On defence, the 1966 exchange of notes with the totally unacceptable, and we should be ashamed of United States made the whole archipelago available for what was done in the name of this country. the defence purposes of both Governments as they may I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for arise. The terms of that note remain in force, and the Crawley (Laura Moffatt) for a typically thoughtful and United States has confirmed that, from its point of sensitive contribution to the debate, and more importantly, view, that situation is still valid. for the human and personal support that she has given It is also important to deal with compensation, to the Chagossian community in her constituency. I and hon. Members have recognised that the know that people in that community have great respect Governments involved have made compensation for the personal interest and commitment that she has available in the past. In the early 1970s, £650,000 demonstrated in ensuring that they are ultimately treated was paid to the Government of Mauritius for the 89WH British Indian Ocean Territory10 MARCH 2010 British Indian Ocean Territory 90WH

[Mr. Ivan Lewis] Mr. Lewis: As far as I am aware, that is the case. Clearly, if I am told differently after the debate, I will benefit of the Chagossians, and, in addition, the write to my hon. Friend. However, that is my view, Government of Mauritius made land available to the based on the information that I received in the run-up value of a further £1 million. Further to that, under a to the debate. 1982 agreement between Her Majesty’s Government, the Government of Mauritius and representatives of Let me deal now with the marine protected area. the Chagossians, a further £4 million was paid by Her When the Foreign Secretary launched the public Majesty’s Government into a trust fund for the benefit consultation on it in November last year, he pointed to of the registered Chagossians. In today’s terms, total what he described as a compensation paid by the Government would equate to “remarkable opportunity for the UK to create one of the world’s over £16 million. largest marine protected areas and double the global coverage of A High Court judgment made by Lord Justice Ouseley the world’s oceans benefiting from full protection”. on 9 October 2003, and upheld by the Court of Appeal Potentially, this is a very significant project, with wide in 2004, looked thoroughly into the circumstances in ramifications. which the 1982 settlement was reached. The judgment accepted that the payments were received as full and We extended the consultation period because, as final settlement of all claims—that is important—and hon. Members said, we needed to consult as widely that the UK had no legal obligation, which I accept is as possible, and the consultation concluded only last different from a moral obligation, to pay any further Friday. The all-party group has formally responded, as compensation. Subsequent court cases have not changed has my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North. that situation. In addition to taking written contributions, we made sure that an independent facilitator was made specifically Laura Moffatt: I thank the Minister for the clarity of available to speak directly to Chagossians in Crawley his response. Does he agree that there may be other and the Seychelles and by video teleconference to those ways to benefit the community and pay compensation, in Mauritius. such as allowing limited activity on the island so that I am not being coy when I say that the consultation Chagos islanders can benefit as a whole, rather than genuinely closed last Friday, and we are not in a position providing money directly from the Government? at this stage to announce its outcome or how we intend to proceed. However, I would like to place on record Mr. Lewis: That goes to the heart of the question that is important that hon. Members are briefed—I about access to the islands. My hon. Friend referred to suspect that this may be the responsibility of someone the two visits that were facilitated and funded by the else, who will, I hope, come from the Labour party—when Foreign Office. That was entirely appropriate and we the Government decide what to do next about the should certainly consider doing more of that in the marine protected area. I am cognisant of the fact that future. There are a variety of ways in which we can hon. Members feel that there was not sufficient consultation demonstrate sensitivity and respect for the islanders with parliamentarians on the Chagossians in the past and their relationship with their homeland. before apparently unilateral decisions were made. I Through financial compensation we have recognised therefore put on record a commitment to make sure, our legal responsibilities, but of course there continues wherever possible, that interested hon. Members are to be a moral responsibility, which is not as neat as a briefed before we make final decisions on the marine statutory or legal responsibility. How we deal with that protected area. moral responsibility needs to be an ongoing source of Let me turn briefly to the specific point that the hon. reflection for any responsible and reasonable British Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) made Government. about extraordinary rendition. Other hon. Members, My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, North including the hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Simpson), asked about the European Court of Human Rights, made the same point. We are all aware of what happened and why the Government are using that to defend in 2008, but the key point is whether any assurances themselves. Let me explain why we are doing so. First, have been given that it will not happen again. It is in the view of UK courts, the ECHR is not applicable important to put on record that in February 2008, when in the British Indian Ocean Territory. Secondly, as I the issue came into the public domain and the Foreign have said, the compensation that has been paid was in Secretary made his statement to the House, the then US full and final settlement of all claims, and the UK has Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, publicly underlined no legal obligation to pay any further compensation. the firm US understanding that there will be no rendition Thirdly, the BIOT constitution is lawful, and hence through the UK, our overseas territories and Crown there is no right of abode in BIOT. That is why we are dependencies or our airspace without our express defending ourselves through the European Court of permission having first been received. Hon. Members Human Rights and have not felt able at this stage to may say that that was our understanding in the first settle out of court. place, but it is important that we have on record a reiteration of the fact that the US understands that Jeremy Corbyn: On that point, if the European Court these things were not acceptable and should never happen of Human Rights decides in favour of the islanders again. In terms of our special relationship with the rather than the Government, is it correct that the only United States, we are not happy with the way it has way that the Government could avoid having to carry behaved historically on this issue, but we have to accept out the Court’s wishes is through primary legislation in in good faith the assurance that the then Secretary of the House? State gave. 91WH British Indian Ocean Territory 10 MARCH 2010 92WH

Jo Swinson: That was really my question. Is this just a RBS (Small Business Lending) matter of accepting the word of the US Secretary of State in good faith, or is there anything else that the Government can do so that they have confidence that 10.56 am these things are not currently happening? Do we just Mr. Jim Hood (Lanark and Hamilton, East) (Lab): I have to rely on what the US says? would like to draw attention to the disgraceful treatment that my constituent Mr. Derek Carlyle has received Mr. Lewis: Of course, we have to take all possible from the now publicly funded and publicly owned Royal steps to make sure that our laws and policies are respected, Bank of Scotland. I first met Mr. Carlyle in January last and that should be the case especially in the context of year, when he undertook to highlight difficulties that he our special relationship. Historically, we were obviously had encountered over the previous months in his business given assurances that turned out not to be true, and that arrangements and dealings with the bank. I was horrified is totally unacceptable, whether it was the United States then, and I remain horrified today, by the inexcusable that did that or any other country with which we had and underhand tactics adopted against him, both personally any kind of diplomatic relations, let alone a special and professionally. relationship. All that I would say to the hon. Lady is that we have now had an assurance, and we have to Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) respect it. The United States was certainly left in no (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on obtaining such doubt, as has been said, about the fact that the Foreign an important debate. I have been dealing with constituents Secretary was not only embarrassed, but angry that a facing similar problems. This week, I have been dealing country with which we pride ourselves on having a with a small business man who simply cannot get access special relationship had, on this occasion, undoubtedly to lending to assist his trading. Given that the Government misled the British Government. have supported the banks to ensure the recovery of the To conclude, the difference between legal and moral economy, is my hon. Friend not absolutely right to tell responsibility is not a simple issue. As hon. Members the banks that their behaviour is unacceptable? have said, there is no doubt that we owe the Chagossians justice, fairness and respect for the fact that we treated Mr. Hood: I thank my right hon. Friend for his the population badly all those years ago. Subsequently, intervention and I agree wholeheartedly. As I report we tried to offer redress through compensation and by further to hon. Members, however, he will find out that resettling Chagossians in this country, and my hon. my constituent’s case is not about a guy who could not Friend the Member for Crawley has spoken of her get the funding; he had been promised the funding, but experiences in her constituency. Equally, the Government it was then withdrawn. are defending their position for good reason. In the context of our responsibility to do what we believe is in In introducing the debate, I should say that Mr. Carlyle the national interest and our moral responsibility to the was an established customer of the bank and had Chagossians, we must continually review whether we enjoyed an excellent working relationship with it over are getting the balance right. We have no choice at this the years. Development funding had been provided stage but to defend our position in the courts, but we for projects that were successfully completed. In 2007, must remember that we are culpable for what happened Mr. Carlyle had a solid track record, achieving an historically. That moral responsibility will never go average profit margin of 30 per cent. on each project, away, and we have to find ways, as my hon. Friend the and one project in East Kilbride was still progressing. Member for Islington, North said, of constantly recognising That year, an opportunity arose to purchase and develop that, accepting our responsibility and being held to land in the grounds of the renowned Gleneagles hotel in account. Perthshire. As was his habit, Mr. Carlyle approached the bank with this new business venture, which would potentially realise substantial profit, benefiting the bank and himself. In March 2007 Mr. Carlyle met someone from the bank’s commercial centre to negotiate funding for the project in two parts—the purchase of the land and the building development of a £4 million house. It is pertinent to note that it was a condition of the sale of the land that the plots could not be resold, and were required to be developed by March 2011, failing which the land would return to the sellers. That is what they call a buy-back clause. Because of the buy-back clause Mr. Carlyle had impressed on the bank the fact that he could not accept funding for the purchase of the land if funding for the development would not also be made available. The bank was very enthusiastic about the project, and agreed. On the strength of his past dealings with RBS, and being confident of its support, Mr. Carlyle undertook the purchase of the land, although the funding from the bank for the purchase—£845,000 and £560,000— was not released until August 2007. Initial building works commenced, with continued assurances from the 93WH RBS (Small Business Lending)10 MARCH 2010 RBS (Small Business Lending) 94WH

[Mr. Hood] in the chaos and destruction that the bank had intended, destroying the man’s business and causing horrendous bank that it would support the Gleneagles development damage to his personal life and reputation. The bank project. Mr. Carlyle had initially used some of his own pressed on against Mr. Carlyle through the action it had funds to get the project started, and had paid off some raised in the Court of Session. Mr. Carlyle counterclaimed, debts, as a result of that, from the sale of another on the basis that the promise from the bank to provide property, while also repaying some funds to the bank. development funding was a contractual one, and that On 12 August 2008, Mr. Carlyle and his solicitors the bank was in breach of that contract, known as were abruptly advised that the bank would not provide collateral warranty. the development funding, and that it demanded repayment The Court of Session agreed with Mr. Carlyle. The of the £1.45 million used to purchase the Gleneagles judgment from Lord Glennie of 13 January 2010 found land by 10.30 the next day, or, it said, it would “destroy” not only that the bank had failed to keep its contractual Mr. Carlyle; and it advised him that he “should be clear promise to provide the development funding, but that about the chaos that would ensue”. the conduct of the bank in the Court of Session fell far below the required standards. That is strong criticism David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I welcome you from a judge. He also said that the Royal Bank of to the Chair, Mr. Howarth. The hon. Gentleman has Scotland lacked “candour”in the proceedings, specifically outlined something that is an exact mirror image of in its deliberate failure to admit to key evidence in the what is happening in Northern Ireland, through RBS, Court of Session. If someone is described in a judge’s to the Ulster Bank, where facilities that have been language as lacking candour, that might mean to some agreed are withdrawn at the last minute. That affects of us in the House that they were lying through their many vulnerable businesses and the people employed in back teeth. those small businesses. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that what the banks say privately or publicly to the Since the beginning of August 2008 the bank has Government is not what is happening on the ground? bullied and intimidated Mr. Carlyle’s usual solicitors, threatening them with destruction of their business Mr. Hood: That is very much the case. I thank the practice, which resulted in their withdrawing from acting hon. Gentleman for making the same point that I hope for him in this matter. That is the thing that I really to make to the House. want to point out to the House, and to the Government. Here were lawyers—and it is the case today—having to Mr. David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): I know of approve the person who was representing the person examples in my constituency, as other hon. Members opposing them. The firm of solicitors whose business do in theirs, of companies, such as Crummock in was threatened with ruin was a small one, with little Midlothian, that are beginning to be reluctant to discuss option but to tell my constituent, “I’m sorry, I can’t things, because of what the Royal Bank of Scotland has carry on representing you.” been doing. Those are long-established companies, which have had a long-term relationship with RBS, which has Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): The turned its back on them. My hon. Friend mentioned hon. Gentleman will know that the Government are a threats being made; could he give some examples? major stakeholder in the Royal Bank of Scotland. Why does he think it is possible for officials of the bank to Mr. Hood: Yes, I certainly will, as I develop my snub their noses in the direction not just of many argument. Members of Parliament, and even the Government, but The reason given for the action was that there had also the Prime Minister’s statements in this House? been no agreement to provide the development funding, Surely that is totally unacceptable. and that all the funds from the property that Mr. Carlyle had sold should have gone straight back to the bank; the bank was not happy about that. It claimed to have Mr. Hood: It is absolutely unacceptable, and I hope an agreement that the total funds from the sale should that my brief Adjournment debate will encourage other have gone back to the bank, but since then it has been hon. Members to find out whether, as I suspect, there unable to produce such an agreement. are many similar examples from their constituencies, and to bring those to the House. The bank’s solicitors then embarked on a series of actions that is shocking. In a short space of time Mr. Carlyle’s bank accounts were frozen, his company Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): forced into administration, his assets seized, and action The hon. Gentleman does not only his constituent but to repossess his family home commenced, with arrestment the whole House a service in bringing the matter before and inhibition orders from the Court of Session in us, because it is one of the most extreme examples of Edinburgh. Not satisfied with that, the bank manipulated something that I have heard of from my constituency a personal account used for school fees so that it experience; and I suspect that just about every other become overdrawn, resulting in payment of Mr. Carlyle’s hon. Member who interacts with businesses in their children’s school fees not being honoured. Furthermore, community will be in the same situation. to make things more difficult for him, the bank prevented Does the hon. Gentleman agree that what has been solicitors from acting on his behalf, and it was only with happening is made possible as the result of a policy of the Bank’s approval that his current solicitors in Edinburgh RBS in particular, of removing all decision making were able to be appointed. from the local branch, the point of contact that their The project in East Kilbride was also the subject of customers—including me—have always enjoyed, and seizure and was sold by the bank at a considerable loss, giving it to decision makers further down the line, who of almost half its value. The unjustified attack resulted can come up with reasons for refusals that hold no water? 95WH RBS (Small Business Lending)10 MARCH 2010 RBS (Small Business Lending) 96WH

Mr. George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. I remind Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman hon. Members that this is a short debate and that speaks of bullying smaller people and firms. May I tell interventions should anyway be brief and to the point. the House about a firm in my constituency that had an Long interventions prevent other hon. Members from order book of £3 million? It was owed £400,000, much having the opportunity to speak. of it by main contractors who were improperly withholding the money, and it owed others the lesser sum of £300,000. The banks forced that company into administration, Mr. Hood: I thank you for your guidance, Mr. Howarth. and refused to lend to it. The banks and the main One thing has really irked me. Another of Mr. Carlyle’s contractors cleaned up big time, and the small man was solicitors threatened by the bank found out that a letter trodden all over. It is about time that the Government concerning an alleged attempt to obtain substantial took action to stop such improper practices. funds from RBS had been “concocted” by RBS staff. The solicitor threatened to report the incident to the Mr. Hood: I am sure that the Minister is taking on police and the fraud office. Only then was the matter board these interventions. dropped. Sinister stuff. As regards Mr. Carlyle, I would urge RBS—via The bank then pressed another large firm of solicitors Mr. Dickinson, its chief executive—to follow up its to stop acting for Mr. Carlyle. I know which firm it was, admission in the Court of Session that it breached its but it would not be fair to name it at this stage; we may promise and honour it by providing the reparation due have to name it later, but we do not want to do so now. to Mr. Carlyle for its wrongful actions once his damages Mr. Carlyle was advised that no sizeable firm would act claim has been quantified. The taxpayer should not be for him in a case against RBS. His current solicitors funding personal vendettas by bank personnel; nor took the case only after saying to RBS, “Is it okay if we should RBS be allowed to wriggle out of honouring the take the case?” They had to be approved by RBS before clear promise made to Mr. Carlyle. they could act. What sort of situation are we in? On a wider note, I am sure that there are many without Mr. Carlyle’s determination and strength of The Bank’s specialised lending services and recoveries character who have been mistreated, bullied and intimidated department in Edinburgh delivered a one-sided report by RBS. I urge them to lodge a detailed formal complaint to Mr. Dickenson, the chief executive, in order for to not only the Financial Ombudsman Service but their him to respond to a letter from me. Again, it was lack local MP. of candour to brief the chief executive, but I leave that to him. I received a letter from RBS yesterday. I understand that the Minister has a copy. It was one of those “pp” In the spring of 2009, the bank falsely advised the letters that we see far too often; although I know where Court of Session, the bank’s chief executive and it came from, I do not know who wrote it. It contains Mr. Carlyle’s solicitors that the latter’s key witness, an the same stuff—I was going to say “garbage” but I do RBS manager at the time, had changed her statement not want to be too disrespectful—but it has the same made in support of Mr. Carlyle’s claim, and that there garbage that the bank presented in its case at the Court was no point in going to court. That, too, was found to of Session, which Lord Glennie said was “less than be completely false. Indeed, the woman in question—I candid”. I shall disregard much of the letter’s contents, have a copy of her statement with me—never made as it contains information that we already know. However, such a retraction. That was proved to be the case in it also includes an invite to a meeting at my constituency evidence given to the Court of Session. That is what office to discuss this and other cases; I look forward made Lord Glennie refer to a “lack of candour”. to that. Following the proof being given to the Court of I ask the Minister to take all this information away. I Session in October 2009, and while awaiting judgment, do not say that he or the Government are responsible. the bank apparently conspired to influence a third When I came to this debate, I hoped that we were party and its representatives to have Mr. Carlyle sequestrated dealing with rogue managers and rogue directors at for the small sum of £4,000, a sum unconnected with RBS, but from the interventions that I have taken—they the bank. That was wrong and unfair; it was an attempt were from Members from Northern Ireland and from to destroy his ability to claim justice and reparation if many other parts of the country—I suspect that it is he succeeded in his Court of Session counterclaim. even more serious. It is not rogue people: it may be Despite admitting in court that the promise was institutionalised. If so, it must be sorted; and we, as breached, RBS has apparently decided to bring in major shareholders in RBS, have a duty to sort it. another highly paid legal team that includes—get ready for this—the Dean of Faculty to represent it at the 11.17 am taxpayers’ expense, in order to examine Lord Glennie’s The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): judgment. It is a pleasure, Mr. Howarth, to serve under your The inexcusable and underhand tactics of bullying chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member and intimidation by RBS personnel of individuals and for Lanark and Hamilton, East (Mr. Hood) on securing organisations, no matter whether it is done in an this debate. He is certainly right to say that bank uncontrolled manner or with the full knowledge lending is vital to business. Many businesses have continued and authority of the RBS directors, is wholly unacceptable. to express anxieties and grievances on that question, Once again, RBS personnel seem to believe that they and some of them were reflected in the interventions are above the law and not accountable for their actions, made on my hon. Friend. and that the institution, with its bottomless pit of As my hon. Friend noted, his constituent Mr. William taxpayers’ funds, will bail them out. They had the Derek Carlyle has taken action on what he believes power to bully and destroy—and to hide when caught. to be unfair practices. I listened carefully to what he 97WH RBS (Small Business Lending)10 MARCH 2010 RBS (Small Business Lending) 98WH

[Ian Pearson] Ian Pearson: I want to respond to that accusation directly, because banks have received substantial taxpayer said. He made some serious allegations about bullying, support and they must do all that they can to lend to intimidation, and threats to solicitors and others. I am creditworthy businesses and to support the recovery. I sure that he will find other avenues through which to want to go on to give some of the available figures. pursue those matters. I am sure also that Royal Bank of Scotland will have listened carefully to my hon. Friend’s Bob Spink rose— comments. Ian Pearson: I only have a limited amount of time, so Mr. Hood: I did not mention the solicitors for that let me make some progress with my speech. If I have reason. However, if I need to mention them I shall time, I shall then give way. certainly do so. Solicitors, and groups of solicitors, need to be defended against such behaviour. Lawyers must be It is important that businesses have the necessary free to represent their clients, regardless of what has capital to invest in their factors of production, to invest happened. This case indicates that that was not so. in product development and to have the means to There may be some legal questions about interfering expand and grow, in particular as we—hopefully—secure with due process, and we may have to return to the the recovery. There should be opportunities for UK subject. firms to compete successfully in the global marketplace, and barriers to finance should not prevent them from Ian Pearson: I note what my hon. Friend says. He will doing so. be aware of the different routes through which he can I am dismayed that I continue to hear stories from progress these matters. He will appreciate that I cannot hon. Members about companies that are not able to comment specifically on the particulars of the Carlyle access the sort of funding required to help their businesses case, because it is still subject to the court ruling. for the future. There is evidence out there that more However, I hope to see a resolution of the matter—and, lending is beginning to flow to businesses, which is indeed, of other matters that have arisen. encouraging. Surveys, such as those from the Department I would like to address some of the broader issues for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Bank lending about bank lending in the UK economy, and say something panel, all suggest that around three quarters of businesses specific about RBS in response to the concerns expressed get finance from the first source that they approach—it by hon. Members. I shall not dwell too much on the is important to put that on the record. context, given the short time for my response, but it can Hon. Members will appreciate that nearly 6,000 small be traced back to the reckless lending in which some in and medium-sized businesses have received more than the global financial sector indulged in the years preceding £605 million so far in loans from banks through the the crisis. We have seen the first global financial crisis of enterprise finance guarantee, which the Government the modern era, largely as a result of the emergence of introduced. RBS is committed to lending through that the sub-prime crisis in the United States following the scheme, as well as through the European Investment collapse of Lehman Brothers. Incredible action in the Bank discounted loan scheme, which I would recommend United Kingdom led to our substantial ownership of as a funding option for growing businesses that are the Royal Bank of Scotland and the Lloyds Banking looking to make capital investment, although the scheme Group. We then took significant action to ensure continued has not been promoted nearly enough by the banks. lending, both to households and to businesses—the Indeed, we as a Government could do more to promote subject of the debate. the availability of those funds. The latest Bank of England “Trends in Lending” RBS data show that the bank is approving the vast report shows that net lending declined by £47 billion in majority of loan applications. RBS figures for 2009 2009. That trend is not just relevant to the United show that the bank accepted 85 per cent. of all applications Kingdom, but common to the United States, the eurozone from SMEs. The increase in lending is of fundamental and Japan. As the Bank’s analysis has shown, during importance, but ensuring that customers are treated past recessions and financial crises, bank lending typically fairly is equally important. That issue has been raised remained weak in the early stages of recovery. That may by hon. Members, who should be aware that RBS has reflect a number of factors, including the reappraisal of developed an SME customer charter. We worked alongside risk by lenders, investors and borrowers; uncertainty the bank to produce that charter, which set out the level about the prospects for the economy; people and businesses of service that customers should expect to receive from choosing to pay off debt and restructure their financial their bank and includes features such as a 1.5 per cent. positions, rather than taking on more debt, which impacts cap on overdraft and loan arrangement fees; ensuring on the demand for finance by households and businesses; that the price of loans or overdrafts reflects the cost of and financial institutions restructuring to deliver higher funding; a pledge to support business start-ups; and a capital levels and more conservative loan exposures. programme of seminars to provide expert guidance. Having said that, it is absolutely important that creditworthy businesses should not suffer from constraints on the We have taken actions, including on bank lending supply of lending, especially as demand recovers in the commitments. RBS has committed to lending £16 billion economy. during the year ending this month and we are discussing its future lending commitments. We expect banks to Dr. McCrea: Does the Minister accept that many continue to offer competitively priced loans, to ensure banks throughout the United Kingdom are strangling that businesses get a fair deal, but decisions about small and medium-sized businesses? If they give a loan pricing or terms and conditions of loans to specific to such businesses, they impose such a premium that it businesses remain commercial decisions for banks and is impossible for the businesses to get through this time building societies. It would not be right for the Government of recession. to intervene in such decisions. Any dispute between a 99WH RBS (Small Business Lending) 10 MARCH 2010 100WH bank and a business should be resolved by the parties Kent Coast Railway Line involved, initially by going through the bank’s complaints procedure.

[MR.JOE BENTON in the Chair] Mr. David Hamilton: Does the Minister understand that the issue does not affect new companies alone, but well-established companies with long-term relationships 2.30 pm with the bank? There is something wrong with the bank—the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs drew Mr. Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): I am grateful the conclusion two weeks ago that the Royal Bank of for this opportunity to place on the official record Scotland has a structural problem in how it deals with something that has been the subject of a huge amount such businesses. The bank is virtually blackmailing of correspondence and a lot of comment in other some of the businesses that it has been dealing with for debates in the House. Before I start, it is also worth years, and is foreclosing on others. placing on the record that I intend to quote from correspondence from other Members’ constituencies Ian Pearson: I understand the ongoing concerns. The because I have become the focus of attention for a lot of hon. Gentleman is right to say that there is an issue with complaint, much of which has been sent to me by existing businesses but, on RBS’s figures, 85 per cent. of e-mail. I have notified, I hope, every Member whose loan applications, which includes existing businesses, constituents I shall quote from to enable them to be are accepted at the moment. present and to comment if they so wish. Given that that is the case, I am more than willing—I know that it may Several hon. Members rose— take a little time—to give way to any hon. Member who wishes to intervene. I make that plain now, and I shall Ian Pearson: I only have two or three minutes left, so seek your indulgence, Mr. Benton, if that becomes let me respond with a few other things relevant to the necessary. debate. I have close to 1,500 reasons for raising the matter of I referred to the bank’s complaints procedure, but the the rail service—I use the word “service”loosely—between Financial Ombudsman Service for small businesses is the towns of east Kent and central London via the Kent available, if people are not satisfied that they have coast, or the north Kent line. The figure 1,500 represents received the right and appropriate treatment through the number of working men and women who pay very the bank’s complaints procedure. Hon. Members will large sums of money to commute daily from Kent to be aware that RBS also operates a business hotline, central London to their places of employment. Those which assists viable businesses in accessing loans. It is are people who have become so angered by the performance designed to be a second pair of eyes for businesses of Southeastern trains and by the failure of Ministers in whose loans are turned down first-time. The hotline the Department for Transport, including one Kent Member number is 0800 092 3087. I understand that only two of Parliament, properly to understand and represent Members of Parliament so far have made use of it, but their interests that they found it necessary to send to the some 4,400 calls have been received from businesses. We Prime Minister a petition calling for the restoration of a can use the hotline in our constituency roles, to take up timetable that was in operation before December 2009 the cases of RBS business customers who are not getting and the reappraisal of the vehicle that is less than a fair crack of the whip. appropriately named High Speed 1, the Javelin service. The hotline is clearly not applicable or appropriate in As long ago as March 2001, coincidentally in the the circumstances to the case described by my hon. run-up to that year’s general election, the hon. Member Friend the Member for Lanark and Hamilton, East, for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) was in the local press. which went down the litigation route. He raised some The article stated: serious allegations about the operation of the Royal “A£70 million rail link from Ramsgate to London was announced Bank of Scotland. Undoubtedly, such matters will be this week promising journey times of less than an hour. South determined by the courts. Certainly RBS is well aware Thanet MP Steve Ladyman said a new company, Netrail 2000, would operate the high-speed service, which would be running by of today’s debate. My hon. Friend said that RBS is May 2002. but the sub-hour journey might not be available happy to meet him, which would be a good way for him until 2007.” to pursue the matter. My description of this as a “pre-election smokescreen” Overall, the Government’s continuing actions are was described as “utterly contemptible”. It was not deliberately designed to address the flow of credit in the long, though, before it became apparent that Netrail economy. We do not want to see credit constraints 2000 was of no substance and that the ghost trains “to impeding recovery. We need to do all that we can to be built by Adtranz” had not been ordered and did not encourage lending. We have secured lending commitments exist. The sub-hour journey from a Thanet Parkway from RBS and the Lloyds Banking Group, and we shall station to London has, however, been not only a dream make further progress in that area. but a potential reality for nearly 20 years and I have myself done the Victoria to Ramsgate trip, on an 11.30 am engineering train, in one hour flat. Sitting suspended. When the domestic high-speed service using the channel tunnel high-speed link was mooted, I campaigned, with others, for that high-speed service to be integrated with the domestic franchise in the fond belief that those travelling from east Kent to London would at last get the 21st century railway that they needed and deserved. 101WH Kent Coast Railway Line10 MARCH 2010 Kent Coast Railway Line 102WH

[Mr. Roger Gale] He added that “arrival at St. Pancras International would be more convenient Let me make it clear that I support the provision of a for other passengers wishing to visit, for example, the British high-speed service from east Kent to London. Tomorrow, Museum, the British Library, London Zoo or Madam Tussauds.” the Government will make a pre-election announcement It may have escaped his Lordship’s notice, but season-ticket about the proposed High Speed 2 service, but it would holders commuting to work do not spend a great deal of be good to think that before HS2 is commenced the time visiting caged wild animals or looking at stuffed Department will complete the half-finished High Speed dummies. I shall deal with the detrimental leisure aspects 1 project, carry the upgraded line and service through of this issue later. to a Thanet Parkway station between Minster and The immediate point that I wish to make to the Cliffsend and facilitate the development of Manston Minister is that the problems that we are experiencing airport and a truly integrated rail, sea and air transport today were foreseen, forecast and ignored by both the system. That really would be an achievement of some train operating company, Govia, and the Secretary of value to the economy of east Kent. State for Transport. In case we are in any doubt it is At present, however, instead of the fast train to clearly with the Secretary of State for Transport that central London that commuters should be able to enjoy, this buck must stop. On 16 February, in a response to a we have been asked to applaud a train that runs fast— complaint from Mr. Daniel Sargent, Southeastern trains sometimes—from Ashford to St. Pancras at considerably customer services officer, David Eustace, said: increased cost, of little benefit to travellers using the “As far as the timetable is concerned, we realise that some people are disappointed with the changes that were made in Kent coastal services and at very severe detriment to the December. Unfortunately, all timetables are a compromise between conventional routes to Victoria, Cannon Street and a service specification set by the Department for Transport (DfT) London Bridge that most commuters wish to use. Just the infrastructure and rolling stock resources available”. as a parentheses, I heard this morning from Passenger Focus, which knows what it is talking about, that the Mr. Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): The high-speed take-up of the high-speed link to Ebbsfleet from passengers train services have been amazing and transformative in on the Kent coastline and from east Kent is just 15 per my constituency, but, of course, the normal trains are cent. I would not wish the Minister present to fall into slow, dirty and very often late. Would the hon. Gentleman the trap of believing that concern over the arrangements agree that there is an urgent need for bi-directional introduced in December were not anticipated. signalling at the pinch point at Rochester bridge? In my Notwithstanding the failure of consultation to take own constituency the numbers of trains stopping at proper account of the views of the real fare-paying and Sole Street station are being severely restricted. travelling public, I myself raised the concerns in an Mr. Gale: My hon. Friend is leading me down a path Adjournment debate on 20 January 2009. I agreed that that I was not going to go down, but he has given me the the high speed trains might reduce travelling times from opportunity to comment on an issue that is not peripheral parts of Kent to St. Pancras. However, I stated: but separate. Five years ago, representatives of Network “My constituents are going to be made to pay higher prices to Rail came down to Margate and examined the potential travel to a station that they do not want to go to and then pay a for Margate station with me. We talked about signalling tube fare to get back to the place where they actually want to be”. on the Kent coast line. I was assured that it would be in With cuts to domestic services to clear paths for high place by 2009. Modern signalling, which allows tricks speed trains, I predicted that that could not otherwise be played, would allow trains on the Kent coast line to overtake. Advanced signalling “my constituents are going to pay more for less.”—[Official and crossover points—although this sounds hairy—allow Report, 20 January 2009; Vol. 486, c. 715.] trains to be run in both directions, overtaking each other, on the two tracks. One might think that that That has been the case. would mean that trains would meet head-on at some Following that debate, the then Minister of State, point, but I am assured that that is not the case. now the Secretary of State, Lord Adonis, protested that New signalling would also allow trains to travel much there would be an increase in the services available to closer together, with much more signalling and therefore my constituents and that Southeastern fares would be many more safety points on the line. The problem with capped at “RPI plus 3 per cent”—try telling that to my the Kent coast line, as my hon. Friend and I know, is commuting constituents. He said that passengers from that it was built on the cheap 100 years ago. It has east Kent would experience benefits in savings and in gradients instead of cuttings and only two passing journey times. He added: points between Ramsgate and London. He is absolutely right to make that point. Sadly, the date has slipped. It “I do not believe that any passenger will be obliged to switch to a high-speed service in order to reach their preferred destination.” will now be 2012 or 2014 before improvements are— literally—on track. Following my letter of 25 February 2009, in which I David Eustace, Southeastern trains customer services challenged some of his more careless assertions, Lord officer, continued: Adonis replied on 12 March 2009 and acknowledged “On taking over the franchise in 2006 we inherited as a that his assessment of the number of trains from Margate contractual commitment the Integrated Kent Franchise service to Victoria during the morning peak was erroneous. He specification, which detailed the level of service the DfT had also said: stipulated for the Southeastern network”, so it is the Department for Transport’s baby. He added: “It is true that your constituents who currently use the direct services to London Charing Cross in the peaks will no longer be “As it stands, there are unlikely to be any significant changes able to do so after December. However, the journey may still be for when the summer timetable starts in May”. made by taking a service to London Bridge and changing there.” That will bring joy to the hearts of my constituents. 103WH Kent Coast Railway Line10 MARCH 2010 Kent Coast Railway Line 104WH

Understanding that Govia’s Keith Ludeman and extremely unappealing list? Those who commute across Southeastern’s Charles Horton were effectively pawns Kent rather than into London face a pathetic collapse on the DFT chessboard, I wrote to the Secretary of in the timetable arrangements for transitions. Some State on 6 January, after a disastrous Christmas rail transitions have dropped from 10 minutes to one minute, transport season in east Kent. In that letter, I said that I so people keep missing connections. would be meeting Southeastern’s Charles Horton to discuss the flow of complaint e-mails that I was receiving Mr. Gale: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Some from dissatisfied customers, and I invited the Secretary of the changes dramatically affect his constituents. If he of State to attend the meeting. can stay until later in my speech, he will hear me refer to one of them. If he cannot, I understand fully, as I know Having met Mr. Horton, I wrote again to the Secretary that he has other commitments in the House this afternoon. of State on 18 January, saying: I want the Minister—and the Secretary of State, who “With regards to the bigger picture, Mr. Horton places the I trust will read this debate in the Official Report—to responsibility on the terms of the franchise agreement laid down by your Department.” hear from the mouths of the travelling public precisely what they think of his Department, Southeastern trains Southeastern is in no doubt either about where the buck and Govia. Michael Alderton, a gold card season ticket stops. I continued: holder, says: “It is clear that now that the new timetable has been imposed it “The introduction of the High Speed (?) service to the timetable cannot be changed piecemeal and will require a thorough review. is a shambles and highlights the lack of consideration of SE To establish how best the present unacceptable position may be Trains for commuters…I have had to start getting this earlier rectified in the shortest possible time and in order that I may service because the later train (6.44) is regularly late and at work I apprise you of the detail of the views of travellers, I am formally do not have the luxury of being allowed a five-minute window”. requesting a personal meeting with you”. Five minutes, of course, is the amount by which trains On 26 January, the Minister responded to my first are allowed to be late without being regarded as late. letter of 6 January on behalf of the Secretary of State: Working up the line from Margate—a two-hour journey “Your constituents are well served by the December 2009 on a good day—Vivien Viggers says: timetable”, “The introduction of this service and the downgrading of the citing additional services to London Cannon Street, original service to Cannon Street and Victoria has been of little London Victoria and London Bridge stations, as well as use to me. Because there are no trains at Westgate in the morning the unloved St. Pancras service. We will hear the views at 6 am, I now have to walk to Margate. Whereas I could walk to of the travelling public in due course. my workplace from Cannon Street, I now have to take a tube…the journey is no quicker and I have been forced to pay the inflated In a further and—forgive me—crass observation fares for no improvement in service.” indicating his lamentable understanding of the geography One stop further on, in Westbrook, Paul Dexter of east Kent, the Minister then prayed in aid of his writes that improvement claims services to Tunbridge Wells, Tonbridge, Sevenoaks, Bexleyheath, Greenwich and Grove Park, “a new trend that is becoming more frequent is that when a train is running late on the return journey…Southeastern are not none of which are of interest to those using the Kent stopping at a number of stations between Faversham and Ramsgate coastal services. He was, however, gracious enough to to enable them to make up time (presumably so they can meet acknowledge that their targets)…customers for smaller stations between Faversham “The Department has received some negative feedback”. and Ramsgate have to terminate their journey at Faversham and suffer a further delay…whilst we wait for the next train to come On 12 February, the Minister wrote again on his through.” Lordship’s behalf, this time in response to my letter Mr. Dexter, who pays £3,780 a year out of taxed requesting a meeting with the Secretary of State: income for his season ticket, adds: “I am unable to attend such a meeting due to diary commitments”, “It’s all the more difficult to take increases to the price for this his diary having presumably been rearranged for the year on the basis of the vastly deteriorating service we have general election. He asserted in a further letter on received since the new timetable came into place…The delays may 22 February that not sound significant…but…the impact it has on the time I have to spend with a young family in the evenings is.” “Southeastern is now the best connected London-serving Train Operating Company, serving seven London terminal stations” Dawn Dale, who travels from Birchington-on-Sea, asks: and told me and those whom I represent: “Why are they running a ‘high speed’ service on a line that…cannot “forecast modelling tools used by the rail industry suggest that it reach any high speeds until it leaves the commuter line at Ebbsfleet will take up to three years for a new market to reach 100 per cent. and the trains only get into London 10 minutes earlier than they of its potential. It is, therefore, too early to be seeking to reach a would on the main line—time that you then have to spend getting judgment on the recently introduced service to St. Pancras.” back to where you need to be?...When are Southeastern going to My constituents are travelling now, not in three years’ admit that they have made a mistake on this line”? time. Their working lives are being disrupted now. I would add: when will the Minister? They are paying vastly inflated fares—way above the The next stop is Herne Bay. Sharon Reeve pays Department’s alleged increase of RPI plus 3 per cent.—now. £4,150 out of a salary of £26,000 to get to work. They are travelling on dirty, overcrowded, unreliable Because of the changes to the timetable she has to trains, and arriving home late from work to cold dinners “rise at 04:30 to catch a 05:35 train which will deliver me to and children already in bed, now. London for 07:07—where upon I will have nearly ONE WHOLE HOUR before I need to start work.” Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): I am most She goes on: grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way while making “If I lose my job through being late for work I will be another a powerful speech, and I congratulate him on fighting a ‘benefit’ statistic, and if I have to take a local job, I will join the remarkable campaign. May I add one more item to that low paid, be unable to pay tax. 105WH Kent Coast Railway Line10 MARCH 2010 Kent Coast Railway Line 106WH

[Mr. Gale] She went on: “I do not want to hear that commuters are better off elsewhere Why is the government not stepping in, to ensure that those of in Kent, because I don’t live elsewhere and I don’t want to move us willing to work, are able to get to work”? either. I want a reliable service to and from London Victoria, in Moving up the line to Teynham, Duncan Law used to less than an hour, which is what I could expect before the catch the 5.27 to London Bridge and get to his Greenwich timetable changes in December 2009.” office by 7 am. Now Interestingly, the Minister got the Department’s franchise “the train doesn’t stop at my Local Station, meaning I have to manager, John MacQuarrie, to reply to that comment. travel to Sittingbourne and pay £4.50 per day just to park”. Mr. MacQuarrie said that He goes on: “the Department will review jointly with Southeastern how successful “The train from Sittingbourne is NOT direct to London Bridge the implementation of December 2009 timetable has been.” or Cannon Street anymore, you have to change at Gillingham “Successful” is perhaps not the word I would have onto a local train to complete your journey.” chosen. He concludes by saying that he is I appreciate that this debate is a lengthy journey. If “so angry and let down” the Minister is beginning to lose the will to live, perhaps by Southeastern. he understands how Kent’s travelling public feel on a Antony Loveland from Faversham works in north-west daily basis. In case he is tempted to think that this London, an area that the Department says is favoured problem affects just a few people on the line that is the by the run-through to St. Pancras. He says that subject of the debate, Daniel Sargent states: “the St. Pancras terminal is of limited use to me. Furthermore, I “I commute to London Cannon Street everyday from Dover would be required to find an extra £1400-£1500 for my annual and my journey has been increased by 20 minutes in the evening, season ticket if I were to use the ‘high speed’ service which only it now takes 2 hours in total.” gains me 6 minutes each way. I find it difficult to see how Southeastern can deem this value for money.” Gwyn Prosser (Dover) (Lab): I have listened with He concludes: interest to the hon. Gentleman’s speech and to the “Whilst I’m sure it had its drawbacks I would welcome a return complaints from many of his constituents and the of the old timetable”. constituents of other hon. Members. If I manage to We now move towards the constituency represented catch your eye, Mr. Benton, I will give my view on the by the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. difficulties in Dover. However, I put it on the record Member for Gillingham (Paul Clark), who presumably that the volume of complaints in Dover about the speaks occasionally to the Secretary of State. Dennis impact of High Speed 1 on domestic services does not Hamer from Newington tells me that he faces reflect the jaundiced and grim story we are hearing. “a reduced number of trains in peak hours” Mr. Gale: The hon. Gentleman will no doubt make and 50 per cent. fewer trains during off-peak hours. He his view known and I am sure that his constituents, such adds: as Mr. Sargent, will pay attention. “Needless to say these journeys take considerably longer than under the old timetable”. I am representing the daily experiences of real people who pay real money, after tax, to travel from homes Neil West, who lives on Sheppey and works in Fulham, along the Kent coast, through the Medway towns, and says that into London. Whether the hon. Gentleman likes it or “the new timetable has increased my journey to work from 2 hrs not, the introduction of high-speed trains has had a to 2 hrs 20 minutes and the journey home from 2 hrs to 2 hrs 30 dramatic effect on the performance of the standard minutes on a normal day. I have lost almost an hour of my own free time each day.” service. Passengers are demonstrating with their feet that they do not want to go to St. Pancras. I have done And so to Gillingham and Rainham, home of the that journey, as I am sure has he. After travelling to Under-Secretary, who wrote on 1 March to his constituent, St. Pancras, it takes 25 minutes and costs £2.50 to get Jennifer Coles, saying that he had met with Southeastern’s back to Westminster. The same is true for Aldgate and Charles Horton, who was other places, as I will show. That is not an improvement. “very quick to acknowledge Southeastern’s disappointment with regard to the general performance of the service.” Mr. Sargent goes on to make that very point: Mr. Horton had stressed that “I cannot afford to use the High Speed trains and even if I could they do not take me to where I work. My office is a “Southeastern’s entire focus is currently being directed at driving 10 minute walk from Cannon Street, so why would I want to get a up performance levels”. train to St. Pancras and then have to pay for another season ticket Faced across the table by a Transport Minister defending to use London underground”? a marginal seat and beset by angry commuters, he It does not make any sense. No sane person would would say that. The Minister went on to sing from the regard that as an improvement. No time is saved and Department song sheet: money is wasted. By my miserable maths, people without “I do believe that the high-speed rail service is a great asset for season tickets have to pay an additional £13.50 a day for the residents of Medway and that it will provide increased opportunity a standard return fare to London to use the high-speed for the area. I hope that in time, and with the return to high service—and that is before paying to park. That is a lot performance levels of your standard commuting services, you will of money for a mediocre service. I will be interested to begin to think so too.” hear the hon. Gentleman justify it. Trevor Allison from It is debatable whether Amy Overy from Rainham, Preston, near Canterbury, states: another constituent of the Under-Secretary, will be “The introduction of the high speed service has resulted in an impressed by his observations. She said that inferior service for passengers who travel to London from Kearsney, “the Medway Towns are worse off from the new HS1 service!” Shepherdswell, Aylesham, Adisham, Canterbury East and Selling.” 107WH Kent Coast Railway Line10 MARCH 2010 Kent Coast Railway Line 108WH

Even for people coming from Ashford—the raison I am deeply indebted to Roy Coppins and John d’être of the high-speed link—all is not perfect. Julia Nicholson of Herne Bay and to Bob Parsons, Terry Blackwell, a gold card, first-class traveller, reports that Morland, Alastair Coles, John Cherry and many others “until the introduction of the revised timetable in December I was for the painstakingly gathered information that they travelling to and from Cannon Street by semi-fast service. What have provided me with. I am also grateful to Tunde SouthEastern fail to understand is that High Speed to the wrong Olatunji of Passenger Focus in the south-east for his destination is no gain at all for many people.” staunch support and to the many hundreds of members Again, that is the point I have been making. She states: of the travelling public who have signed John Nicholson’s “St Pancras is useless for the City…as it takes at least 20 to Downing street petition because they are, quite simply, 25 minutes journey by tube back to Aldgate…thereby negating at the end of their tether and their tolerance. the benefits of a fast arrival at St Pancras.” In a recent Kent Messenger newspaper article, Lord To add insult to injury, people who have to travel on Adonis, having taken a brief train journey with his the high-speed link, but do not pay the high-speed junior Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, premium due to the failure of the train operator to the hon. Member for Gillingham, said: provide adequate ticket purchase and upgrade facilities, “The message I’m getting is that trains are working successfully, such as Peter Jaquiss from Cliftonville and Sharon they are very reliable and they have slashed journey times, so they Gregory from Westgate, are faced with penalty fares on are proving increasingly popular with commuters”— arrival at St. Pancras. Remember, this is progress. 17 per cent. of them. Even the local Kent services have not escaped the He continued: impact of this ill-conceived plan. Julie Gurr from Herne “The trains were introduced at the same time as the severe says: weather when all trains were subject to delay and disruption, but since that weather ended, the high-speed service has been running “I travel from Sturry to Chartham, a journey of 11 minutes extremely well.” each way on the old timetable but…it now takes over 35 minutes each way!!” I do not know what planet the Secretary of State inhabits, but I do understand that the upper House is She continues: not yet elected, so he might pause to consider that a “It has been a complete nightmare because if the train from number of his parliamentary colleagues in the Commons Chartham is delayed or cancelled I can’t get the connection at Canterbury. I thought the idea of public transport was to take currently occupy Labour marginal seats in the Medway cars off the road but with this new timetable I think that the towns, South Thanet and Dover. Their constituents and opposite is going to happen.” mine would like— not in three years, not in months, but I think so too. immediately—to see a cut in fares to reflect the poor standard of service; a return to the sensible timetabling I will bring this litany to a conclusion shortly, but I of trains to destinations that travellers actually wish to said that I would refer to the impact that this matter has reach in central London; an end to short-form trains had on leisure traffic. Terry Davidson from Folkestone and the provision of adequate seating in clean units; an tells me that end to the practice of skipping stations between Faversham “we have lost the fast trains to Charing Cross twice an hour on and east Kent; and, in response to John Nicholson’s Saturday…and one is forced to use the high speed line to have a Downing street petition, an apology for the manner in sensible journey time. which the Department for Transport and Southeastern The old Saturday service…was 1 hr 20 mins to London and to trains have to date failed the high-fare-paying travelling save just 20 mins it is nearly double the cost”. public of east Kent. Almost finally, there is Paul Twyman, who is a former under-secretary at the Department for Transport—I do 3.3 pm not know whether he is known to the Minister—and a Gwyn Prosser (Dover) (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow member of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale), who Transport. He reminded me that journey times are now might be surprised to hear that I agree with some, but “longer than in the age of steam”— not all, of the points that he raised. I am not here to the trains in 1927 were faster than they are today. He speak for other MPs’ constituents, but I certainly want asks: to speak up for my constituents in Dover. “How can Thanet attract tourists if journeys can take up to I have been using east Kent trains occasionally for 3 hours (my last journey at the weekend…was spent either waiting 30 years since I first went down to Dover in 1979, for a ‘replacement bus’ or journeying on it all round the highways although I have used them more frequently since I and byways of East Kent; we nearly froze to death on Faversham became the town’s MP 13 years ago. No matter what the Station).” deficiencies and weaknesses of the current service and He adds that high-speed trains timetables, let us not forget that they do not compare at “are no good for me. I do not want to pay more to go to a place all with the experiences that we all suffered during those that I do not want to go to.” early years. Right up until the late ’90s, we were travelling A letter from another Southeastern customer relations on the old slam-door trains, which really rattled and officer, Dan Westlake, to Mr. Les Turner—this is brilliant— were dirty, insecure and unreliable. We have certainly helpfully indicates: come a long way since then. “I should first of all explain that, when selling you a ticket, a I have fond memories of turning up at Dover Priory railway company does not guarantee to carry you on any particular station in 2001 to officially name the first of the class train (unless seat reservations apply) or that you will arrive at a 375 services. Hon. Members will not be surprised to particular time. The timetable is a guide to services that a train hear that it was named “White Cliffs Country” and not, company intends to operate but it does not guarantee that trains I am afraid, “Gwyn Prosser”. However, those services will run in accordance with it”. really marked a turning point in investment in trains So now the cat is out of the bag. down to east Kent. The trains were brought in by 109WH Kent Coast Railway Line10 MARCH 2010 Kent Coast Railway Line 110WH

[Gwyn Prosser] impacts negatively on domestic services, and that is true at all our stations—I echo those complaints. It has a Connex South Eastern, which was later to lose its particularly bad impact on the town of Deal, where franchise owing to poor performance—perhaps poor passengers have longer journey times and poor connections performance has something to do with geographical to Dover. Deal people, like quite a lot of others on that matters, rather than the train operator. line, have none of the advantages of High Speed 1 and The trains were subsequently renationalised for two probably all or most of the disadvantages. However, I and a half years—I would call them two and a half believe that that can be overcome. glorious years—and they ran under the name of South Last year, I started to talk to Southeastern, Network Eastern Trains. It is on the record that South Eastern’s Rail and Ministers, to press the case for Deal. I met trains were more punctual and provided a better, more Charles Horton; we have all met him, and he is an reliable service and that industrial relations were better amiable fellow. The chief executive of Southeastern than ever before. Along with my colleagues in the acknowledged, I suppose, that there were some deficiencies, National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers, and promised a review, but wanted the present timetables I campaigned hard, although unsuccessfully, to get and systems to settle down and wanted to get some Ministers to keep at least this rail operator in the public service experience from them. However, I particularly sector to provide a benchmark with which to compare pressed Deal’s case. Since then I have discussed Deal private operators. We have seen some really dismal, sad with Lord Adonis. stories from a lot of those private operators, large and small, over the years. As I said, it was well documented Mr. Gale: We are going to be told later, I suspect, that the service improved under South Eastern, that that there will be a review and that things might get punctuality got much better and that industrial relations better at some time. The point is that we raised the were much better in that window of nationalisation. issues a year ago and no one listened, so I wonder why RMT and ASLEF fought hard to keep things that way, the hon. Gentleman thinks they will listen now. but it just was not to be. This afternoon, we are debating the timetables and Gwyn Prosser: I have some sympathy with that remark. the standard of service under the current operator, My experience of the Department for Transport is that Southeastern trains. From a constituency point of view, it takes an awful lot of shouting, booing and pushing to I am pleased to put on record how delighted Dover is to make anything happen. It is the Department’s inertia be connected to the high-speed train service to London. that may need to be addressed; I do not think that it is That did not happen by accident, and it could easily not down to individuals. have happened at all. Some Members will remember the I raised the issue of Deal and the high-speed rail fight and the campaign that we undertook to ensure deficiency, as I called it at the time, with Lord Adonis, that the train came all the way down to Dover. The who came to Dover with two colleagues to celebrate the experts told us that there were safety issues at Shakespeare high-speed train. He got off at Dover Priory a month or cliff and that there were technical matters and obstacles. so ago. He wanted to ram home the advantages of For a long time, it looked as if the trains would regeneration—the boost that high-speed trains give to terminate in Folkestone. I have nothing against Folkestone, regenerating places such as Dover. We have very ambitious and I should just mention that it is another east Kent regeneration plans on the table. constituency represented by a Welsh MP. However, one deficiency with the high-speed service is that the train I pay tribute to our local rail campaigning group, stops twice in the little town of Folkestone, which has which is called Trains4Deal, and to the East Kent Mercury, two stations less than a minute apart. If we took away for the work that they have done together to promote one of those superfluous stops, we could easily cut the Deal’s interests. Trains4Deal has produced a detailed travel time from Dover to London to the magic one document, which made a well-argued business case for hour, rather than the present one hour and seven minutes; including Deal on the high-speed network and improving I just say that as an aside. Of course, if the right hon. connection times. I shall not burden the House by going and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe through all those issues, except to say that on Monday, (Mr. Howard) was here, I would see him outside afterwards. further to our discussions and meetings, I met the As I said, however, I have nothing at all against Folkestone. Minister, along with a member of Trains4Deal, and we The campaign that we fought to get the trains into discussed the paper in detail. Dover has already had good results. Business people in It is right to complain when there are complaints to the town say that even within weeks of the trains be made, and it is right to raise the question of the coming in, estate agents were reporting rising markets deficiencies of the service, but my group is more concerned and more interest in commercial properties and general with suggesting practical solutions that will give us the accommodation. We are therefore happy with the high- advantage of the high-speed trains without the present speed train as far as it goes, but it does not go far disadvantages for the domestic services. I am looking enough at present. That is why I have been pressing forward to the Minister’s response to our detailed document, since the middle of last year for some high-speed trains when he has had time to look at it, and perhaps to to stop at Deal, which is an important part of my another meeting and finding some practical solutions constituency. Its population is slightly bigger than Dover’s, to the situation in Dover and Deal. It would be tragic if and there is huge potential for growth in the number of the tenor of this debate gave the impression that High travellers from the town, so it deserves to have some of Speed 1 is a waste of time, that High Speed 1 has the high-speed trains stop at Deal station. brought no advantages to Dover or other parts of east The hon. Member for North Thanet made a number Kent, and that High Speed 1 is not recoverable and of complaints about the impact of High Speed 1 on cannot be made into a first-class service without affecting domestic services. We have the high-speed train, but it our domestic lines. 111WH Kent Coast Railway Line10 MARCH 2010 Kent Coast Railway Line 112WH

3.13 pm of the knock-on effect of incorporating the new service, Hugh Robertson (Faversham and Mid-Kent) (Con): I a considerable number of services have been lost to the congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North station of Selling, and that has completely disrupted Thanet (Mr. Gale) on securing the debate. In our part people’s lives there. Selling is the point to which people of the world he is regarded with great affection and would come from many of the surrounding rural villages. respect, and on the evidence of this afternoon’s debate it Those people now drive to Faversham, clogging up the is easy to see why. roads and causing extra congestion, and of course My constituency is in effect two smaller constituencies— having to pay car parking fees. Selling, without doubt, the Faversham end and the mid-Kent end—and is bisected is the place that has suffered most from the introduction by three railway lines. In the south there is the Headcorn of the new service. line, which has recently had a considerable increase in The second main batch of complaints is about a bit the number of complaints. I went to see the Minister of a Faversham-specific issue—the parking and berthing about the Maidstone to Ashford line, with my right of the high-speed trains overnight. They are berthed in hon. Friends the Members for Tonbridge and Malling the sidings at Faversham, which are right next to a (Sir John Stanley) and for Maidstone and The Weald new-build housing complex. Because the fans turn on (Miss Widdecombe). The issue in that case is the impact and off in the early hours of the morning, people report that the high-speed line has had on services. I have regularly having a disrupted night’s sleep. It was suggested many constituents who live in Bearsted whose lives have over Christmas, when Swale borough council did some been completely altered, to their detriment, as a result investigation, that the sort of noise disruption that of losing services that got them home in time to pick up people were suffering was considerably above the World children from school, and the rest of it. In the north of Health Organisation recommended limit. I shall not the constituency is the north Kent line, which is the take the Minister through the technicalities of that this subject of this afternoon’s debate. afternoon, but it is apparent to me that it gives rise to a I should say at the outset that I am not one of those considerable issue. When the matter was first raised it people who take a remorselessly negative view of rail was suggested that people who bought a house next to a services, and I always thought that it would take some railway line should expect a train to be parked on it time for the high-speed train line to settle down, when it overnight. There is an element of truth in that, arrived, and that we would need time to see the benefits unsympathetic though it is, but that should not be the or otherwise of the new service. However, just like my expectation if the noise being generated is unreasonable. hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet, I have been I am sure that everyone would agree on that. staggered by the number of complaints that I have The third point, which echoes one that my hon. received, relating to all three lines but most noticeably Friend the Member for North Thanet made earlier, is the north Kent one. In nearly a decade as a Member of about the fare structure of High Speed 1. I had not Parliament I have never received as many complaints heard the Passenger Focus figure about the 15 per cent. about the railways as I have in the past six months. take-up, but apocryphally I had heard a number of Those complaints are not only in the letters that I have constituents complaining about it. The problem with received, which I have passed on to Southeastern; also, High Speed 1, which is already well documented, is that everywhere I go, I get buttonholed by constituents who it takes existing residents into what they see as the want to complain about what is happening. For example, wrong part of London—St. Pancras—when archetypally last Friday night I was at a goodbye party for a local they want to get to the west end or the City. To make use solicitor who was retiring after 30 years, and in that half of the service they must pay a much higher fare and an hour I was buttonholed by two people. One of them underground fare to get back to where they wanted to said he had taken the train from St. Pancras back at go in the first place. The justification, clearly, was that rush hour the previous week, and had been the only the service would open up connections going north to person in his carriage. Then, lo and behold, across the people who lived in east Kent, but having looked at the room 10 minutes later I received exactly the same complaint. issue for a few months I suspect that the number of This is serious. It is not just a disruption caused by a people who are benefiting is relatively small and the new service. number who are suffering disruption to their existing In essence there are three issues affecting the north trip is pretty extraordinary. Kent line, and they mirror many of those already raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet and What do I want to be done about all of this? What do the hon. Member for Dover (Gwyn Prosser). The first I want the Minister to say he will do? First, Southeastern and most important is the disruption that the new has pointed out time and again—it is becoming a mantra— high-speed train has meant for what people in Faversham that the timetable is set by the Department. I ask the call the classic service—the existing service. The people Minister if, indeed, he promises us a review this afternoon, concerned are those who moved to Faversham and to make sure that the timetable is rebalanced, so that it bought houses, taking the decision to raise their family better reflects the demand of existing users. there, generally on the basis of the rail service. The lives Secondly, on the Faversham-specific issue, I would of many of them have been completely disrupted by the like some reassurance that the overnight parking problem arrival of the new services. They cannot get connections, will be looked at seriously. It is simply not acceptable in they cannot get home in time, and there are not sufficient this day and age for someone who buys a new-build numbers of trains going to Victoria and Cannon Street house next to a railway line to have their night’s sleep now. For those people there has been an immediate disrupted night after night, as two of the constituents impact. who have written to me have claimed. They are nurses A second, associated issue affects that category of who work in the health service and have to go to work people, concerning a little station called Selling, which at the Kent and Canterbury hospital the next day, is on a line between Faversham and Canterbury. Because having had two or three hours’ sleep. I would like some 113WH Kent Coast Railway Line10 MARCH 2010 Kent Coast Railway Line 114WH

[Hugh Robertson] for 23 miles. Let us not go to Poland; we simply need to look across the water and make some comparisons with reassurance from the Minister either that properly sound- the train services in France. proofed sheds will be introduced or that the trains will be parked further away. Chris Mole: Before the hon. Gentleman rushes into In addition, for the good of the high-speed train making European comparisons, he should know that service, I hope that the Minister will be able to promise one of the features of British train services is their us some sort of review of the fare structure. Clearly, the frequency, which one does not necessarily get on the concept of pricing the high-speed service higher than same basis between similarly distanced stations in France. the ordinary fare does not appear, on the evidence Tom Brake: We could probably trade statistics for the presented thus far, to be working. remainder of the time allotted today. However, I think In conclusion, I would like once again to congratulate that most people who have travelled on trains in France my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet on and in the UK would find that French trains compared initiating the debate. Above all, I do not want the favourably with those in the UK, whether UK trains are Minister to think that this is some sort of pre-election more frequent or not. The substantive issue, which, heist on him or that the issue is being driven by press indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman releases. There is very real problem here. I promise him Baker) sought to raise with the Prime Minister today, is that, in my nine years as a local MP, I have never come that we have built a guaranteed fare increase year after across such consistent anger over the rail services. I year into the system through the retail prices index plus hope he will take the matter seriously and that he can 1 per cent. arrangement. Since 1997, the cost of travelling promise us this afternoon that he will look into it. by train has risen by 13 per cent. and the cost of travelling by car has fallen by roughly a similar amount. 3.21 pm So, there has been a 13 per cent. increase in the cost of Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I travelling by train and a 14 per cent. decrease in the cost congratulate the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale) of travelling by car. on securing this important debate. I shall start by giving a few more facts—we have heard lots of facts today—and Chris Mole: I am happy to continue to exchange picking up the subject of fares, which was where the statistics with the hon. Gentleman. For the same period, hon. Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Hugh disposable incomes have increased by 25 per cent., so Robertson) finished. Fares are clearly very pertinent to the real cost of rail travel has fallen. the debate. We have heard what the additional cost of Tom Brake: I hope that the Minister agrees—I believe the fares on the high-speed line allegedly is—I heard the that this was certainly a priority at some point for the figure of £13 mentioned, although my information suggests then Deputy Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for it is £8 more. Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott)—that we should Mr. Gale: Just to set the record straight, the figure is encourage more people to use public transport. In fact, £13.50: about £4.50 each way plus £2.50 return on the on a camping trip to Italy, I recall coming back from a tube. The fare is not just for the high-speed train. day out to find that a fax had been slipped under the tent door asking me to comment on the fact that it was Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that five years since the Deputy Prime Minister had pledged clarification. I think he just confirmed that the fare that, if more people were not travelling by public transport increase is very substantial—we are talking £9 for the in five years’ time, he should be called to account. I had train alone. been tracked down to that campsite in Italy to comment Hon. Members might be interested to know that on the fact that the target had clearly not been achieved. someone can travel 391 miles for £10 in Bulgaria. Indeed, Yes, it is true that people’s incomes have increased, but I have—admittedly not recently—travelled on Bulgarian it is also true that the price differential between trains trains, and I can confirm that they do run and are and cars has grown significantly, which has put people spacious. For £10, someone can travel 200 miles in off travelling by train. Poland, 131 miles in the Czech Republic and 61 miles in A final statistic I shall mention relates to overcrowding. France. We then get to the UK, where someone can The industry standard for PIXCs—passengers in excess travel 23.8 miles at that price. I suspect that for someone of capacity—is currently set at 3 per cent. or an acceptable is travelling on a high-speed train, it is significantly less level. That is now being exceeded, which leads to substantial than 23.8 miles. overcrowding on some of the train services that have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport been mentioned today. That is certainly the case on the (Chris Mole): I once travelled some hundreds of miles train services I use as a commuter, and many commuters on a Polish train during a Select Committee visit, when in the London suburbs have to deal with daily overcrowding. an aeroplane failed to take off. If someone wants the In the Prime Minister’s response to my hon. Friend experience of a 1950s British Rail reconstruction, they the Member for Lewes, he referred to an announcement might enjoy a journey at such a price, but if they want a to be made tomorrow, which we presume will be about modern high-speed train, surely the hon. Gentleman high-speed train services. The experience of High Speed would concede that they will pay a little more. 1 has set an unfortunate precedent. As the hon. Member for North Thanet and other speakers have made clear, if Tom Brake: I thank the Minister for his intervention, a consequence of high-speed trains is that it costs and I am happy to concede that. He has probably also people more to travel to a destination that they do not travelled on trains in France, which are of a high actually want to get to, and that is how people perceive standard. Yet someone can travel roughly three times the impact of new high-speed train services, the support the distance on French trains for the price we pay here in my party—and I am sure in other parties—for extending 115WH Kent Coast Railway Line10 MARCH 2010 Kent Coast Railway Line 116WH those services, particularly so that they can compete (Hugh Robertson) was surely right when he said that with short-haul flights, is likely to evaporate. The Minister our hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr. Gale) will have to deal with that issue when he responds. is not only liked, but respected in his area. He put one of Notwithstanding his interventions, there will be significant the most eloquent cases on behalf of constituents that I time at the end of the debate for him to set out how he have had the pleasure to listen to in my short time as a will address these matters. Member. I, too, have been contacted about that issue by As we know, the new timetable was introduced on some of his constituents, as he will know, and by those 13 December. The promise then was that high speed of other Members in Kent served by that line, and would provide an extra 200 trains a day and that capacity about the concerns my hon. Friend the Member for would be boosted by 5 per cent. However, many commuters’ Faversham and Mid-Kent raised about the other line. experience appears to have been the opposite of that. Having listened to the case put by my hon. Friend the There are fewer options, longer travel times, more Member for North Thanet, I do not think that anyone overcrowded services and people have to pay a substantial could be anything other than utterly impressed by its premium if they want to travel on the high-speed link to strength. He started by saying that there were 1,500 reasons a destination that, as other hon. Members have said, why the line needs improving and, with all due respect many people do not want to get to. to him, at one point I thought that he was going to go Who is responsible for the issue? Other hon. Members through them all. His stop-by-stop tour of the misery have made it clear that, in the correspondence they have line, including the stop in the constituency of the Under- received, Southeastern does not accept responsibility Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for for the new service and has clearly fingered the Gillingham (Paul Clark), was a powerful evocation of Government—the Department for Transport. If the local people’s concerns. One of the key roles of MPs, Minister believes there was any flexibility for Southeastern which we should never underestimate, is our ability to to implement anything different from what it has been bring those concerns to the forefront in the House and required to implement, I am sure he will make that clear in other places. when he responds. Forecasts were apparently carried out to determine which services could be reduced or cut My hon. Friend was also right to talk about what he entirely, so will the Minister tell us whether those forecasts considered to be the failures of consultation. In a letter were correct? he received on the consultation, the concerns of so The fundamental point about what has happened to many people about the introduction of the timetable the service, and about what risks happening to other were dismissed in a statement that simply acknowledged high-speed services, is that there is a lack of vision and that some people would be disappointed. That might commitment from the Government on ensuring that strike some as complacent, and others as extremely high-speed train services are properly rolled out and condescending. Indeed, it is a telling point that the implemented up and down the country. We need to hear managing director of Southeastern, Charles Horton, from the Government precisely how they will fund an when my hon. Friend met him, was clear about where expansion of the programme. much of the blame was attached, and I want to address that point in a few moments. Clearly, Mr. Horton We believe that there is a case for setting up an thought that the Minister’s response that people were infrastructure bank to raise funds for public transport well served by the services in 2009 was not necessarily schemes. We favour the idea of supporting local right and that, had he had the opportunity to do so, he improvements, for which people often clamour, rather would not necessarily have put that into his franchise. than the high-profile schemes. In a time of constrained The failure of the specified franchises is at the heart of budgets, we should look at the roads budget and take the matter we are debating today. money from it to invest in small rail improvements, such as signalling changes at pinch points, which the hon. My hon. Friend also quoted the Secretary of State, Member for Gravesham (Mr. Holloway) mentioned. Lord Adonis, and was right that the message that the That can make a significant difference to local commuter service is working successfully must cause a hollow services. laugh in his part of the country. Again, the operators We must hear something from the Minister on his are restricted from pursuing sensible timetabling and vision of how to address the matter. It is clear from ending short trains. They must have the chance to look other Members’ contributions that the concern is not a at exactly which stations might be better provided for at cheap trick being pushed a couple of weeks before the better times of the day. That is what needs to happen, starting gun for the general election is fired. The matter rather than the huge over-specification of the timetable, has had a direct and significant impact on people, has which the Department for Transport has got itself into, worsened their quality of life and made their journey to as its franchising policy has failed and is failing. The and from work considerably more difficult. Therefore, move to longer franchises, which I recognise, will offer we require a considered response from the Minister and no reassurance unless it is accompanied by a move to clarity on how he will roll back some of the changes less specified franchises. that have been made while maintaining the high-speed My hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and link, giving back to commuters the services they have Mid-Kent identified three concerns and also referred to lost after using them for many years, and ensuring that the Adjournment debate, secured by our right hon. they have the required standard of service. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley), on 6 January on another train service in Kent. 3.32 pm My hon. Friend was right to end his remarks by pointing Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): It is a pleasure out to the Minister that there is a genuine concern. It is to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Benton. My not electioneering, but the genuine and honestly-felt hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent concern of a huge number of people. 117WH Kent Coast Railway Line10 MARCH 2010 Kent Coast Railway Line 118WH

[Stephen Hammond] trains on the classic lines in order to free up paths for the high-speed trains. What is more, fares across the Like the hon. Member for Dover (Gwyn Prosser), I whole network have risen to fund the cost of the high-speed am in little doubt that the new high-speed trains that link. run on High Speed 1 represent a great leap forward for our railways. This country has waited a long time for Chris Mole: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on high speed to come into operation, and it is clearly an that point? achievement that it now is in operation. The UK has 68 miles of high-speed services, compared with 3,480 miles Stephen Hammond: As he has to wait such a long on the continent. The Minister knows that an incoming time before I finish, yes. Conservative Government would address that, but we will also ensure that any development of the high-speed Chris Mole: I am trying to understand how the hon. network is integrated with the classic network, that the Gentleman justifies the assertion that fares across Kent cost of travel is affordable and that it is not just a have risen in order to support the high-speed link. I premium network, and that it sustains economic growth. thought that it was generally understood by most people I suspect that several Members will be looking to the that the RPI plus 3 was to fund replacement of the test tomorrow—maybe—when the Secretary of State slam-door stock, to which my hon. Friend the Member might talk about high-speed rail and the development for Dover (Gwyn Prosser) referred, with the new trains of the network in the country as the Government see it. on the Southeastern franchise.

Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman has just said that in Stephen Hammond: The Minister says that it was the event of a Conservative Government he will ensure generally accepted. Would he like to confirm that no that high-speed rail is affordable. Would he explain to part of the fare increase of RPI plus 3 went in any way Members how he will do that? to subsidise the cost of the new trains and the new high-speed link?

Stephen Hammond: Absolutely. I would be delighted Mr. Gale: We had better get this right for the record. to explain that to the hon. Gentleman. The economics It is not RPI plus 3 per cent. The Minister knows that are simple. If one does the detailed financial modelling, and is being disingenuous. RPI plus 3 is an average for as we have done, but as I understand his party has not the whole of Kent. The increase on the Kent coast line done, one can take the average fare available and set it has been way above RPI plus 3, as he knows. as the average fare available for high-speed rail and therefore say that that is the fare one would introduce. Stephen Hammond: I thank my hon. Friend for that. I That is exactly what we have done in detailed financial am sure that the Minister will want to deal with my modelling, which has enabled me to make that claim. question in a moment. The debate is not about the success or otherwise of The new timetable, which was designed to integrate high-speed rail, but about the failure of the Government’s the high-speed lines with the classic network, has clearly franchising policy. I cannot help but agree with my hon. left several problems. We must not fall into the trap of Friend the Member for North Thanet when he said assuming that nothing can be done, or that it is entirely that, while some of the people of Ashford and some Southeastern’s fault. When I wrote to the company last parts of Kent might have gained as a result of the new summer, it replied that services into St. Pancras, those in other parts are clearly “the service pattern for the timetable was set by the Department losing out. The new timetable was drawn up to for Transport.” accommodate the high-speed services and has undoubtedly resulted in winners and losers. I am sure that the Minister The main reason why Southeastern has been unable will remember his comments in the Adjournment debate to respond to the needs of its customers is that its hands on 6 January, when he more or less dismissed the have been tied behind its back by the overly tight concerns of others. He stated that specifications of the franchise agreement, which was set out by the Department. I am delighted that the Government “between 20 and 50 per cent. of the people…board and alight the trains at Ashford.”—[Official Report, 6 January 2010; Vol. 503, are accepting the need for longer franchises, but, as I c. 79WH.] said, longer franchises will not work unless they come with fewer specifications. He dismissed the concerns of the 50 to 80 per cent. of people who do not board or alight at Ashford. That begs a question that the Minister may wish to come back to in his remarks: are officials in the Department The winners and losers aspect was freely admitted to still writing timetables? Conservatives want to see an me by Southeastern, as it was to my hon. Friend. When end to the absurd practice of civil servants setting the timetable was in draft form last summer, I wrote to detailed timetables across the network. That cannot and the management of Southeastern and was told: should not be right. “I’m afraid that no timetable will please every passenger.” The Minister will remember that one of his many That may be true, but to disadvantage so many passengers predecessors, the hon. Member for Glasgow, South clearly cannot be right. (Mr. Harris), told this Chamber, and confirmed it in a It is clear that for those travelling to St. Pancras, the written response, that there were 16 civil servants in the new high-speed services will greatly enhance the journey, Department writing detailed timetables. The clear message but if one is accustomed to using the classic network, if from today’s debate is that this is not a failure of one lives in other parts of Kent, or if one still needs to high-speed rail but of the Government’s franchising get to Cannon Street, Victoria or London Bridge, the process. I certainly believe that the Department’s role new timetable, as my hon. Friends have pointed out in franchising should be stripped back, and that the so well, makes the commute worse. There are fewer focus should be on overall policy decisions rather than 119WH Kent Coast Railway Line10 MARCH 2010 Kent Coast Railway Line 120WH what we see today, which is detailed intervention that the connectivity that the service offers people who live so often leads to a diminution of the service for so in east Kent, in Faversham or in the constituency of my many people. hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet. If one Today’s debate presents us with a conundrum. We all thinks that through, the problem is that anyone who want high-speed rail services, but we do not want them works in the west end or the City and decides to move at the expense of classic services. The future success of out of London—they get to that stage in life and often the high-speed network in this country will depend on end up in the areas that two of us represent—does not the ability to ensure that it does what it should do, want connectivity to St. Pancras. Only a tiny proportion which is to create extra capacity for many people. of rail traffic goes from Faversham or North Thanet up This debate also touches on rolling stock, which so to St. Pancras, then uses the connections to the north. often causes constraints in providing the service that so What such people want is a good service that takes many people require. I would be delighted if the Minister them from their place of work, which is typically in the would address the questions about rolling stock that I west end or the City, back home at night and up again have asked him in two previous debates, which he will the next morning. To predicate all of this on connectivity remember. Indeed, when does he expect a more detailed to the north of London is to grab the wrong issue. rolling stock plan to be produced? I look forward to the Minister’s response, and to his Chris Mole: The hon. Gentleman has gone to the saying that he accepts that this is a real and genuine heart of the concern. Of course, if one focuses only on issue, and that the concerns raised by my hon. Friends commuters, one will perhaps take only one set of solutions the Members for North Thanet and for Faversham and from the opportunities that arise from reviewing the Mid-Kent are not a closed book. I hope that he will tell timetable. I was a regular commuter from Northampton us that operators need to be given greater freedom to to Canterbury at one time, and my journey involved react to the demands of their customers. I am convinced several train changes. People have described to me some that, if he is prepared to accept that, the problems that of the journeys that they now make, and they take my hon. Friends have so eloquently set out this afternoon advantage of being able to change at St. Pancras. The can be addressed. point was made on a number of occasions about people transferring from St. Pancras to the City. That may not 3.46 pm be the best journey choice for someone who has been The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport travelling on the high-speed line; they have an opportunity (Chris Mole): It is a pleasure to serve under your to change at Stratford International, then take a seven- chairmanship this afternoon, Mr. Benton. It would be minute ride into the City, which may be a better choice. normal for me to congratulate the hon. Member for The timetable was developed following extensive research North Thanet (Mr. Gale) on securing this debate on rail and feedback from stakeholders and the public over services to and from the north Kent coast, and I recognise several years. I remind the hon. Member for Wimbledon that his contribution was forceful. The contribution of that, despite his protestations, timetables are not written the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Hugh by the Department. Specifications cover the number of Robertson) was thoughtful, that of my hon. Friend the station stops, the frequency of trains and the times of Member for Dover (Gwyn Prosser) was well focused, the first and last services. May I point out to him the that of the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington processes that the east coast main line services are (Tom Brake) was somewhat tangential, and that of the undergoing? The Office of the Rail Regulator has developed hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) was, the outline, and industry interests and the Department as usual, better informed than a contribution from the have engaged in an iterative process in defining the final shadow Secretary of State for Transport would have timetable. Saying that the Department writes the timetable been. If I am unable to deal with any of the issues that is not strictly correct. have been raised, I will ensure that I write to hon. Members. Stephen Hammond: I am delighted to hear about the I shall start by outlining some of the benefits that new iterative process. Is that a new process or was the have been and will be derived from high-speed services Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Member for Glasgow, in Kent. The introduction of such services has facilitated South (Mr. Harris), mistaken in his view that the a number of journey time improvements across the Department wrote timetables? network for existing users who wish to take advantage of them. In addition, high-speed services will create Chris Mole: At the end of the day, when the Department new markets for and in Kent, and will contribute to the lets a franchise, it lets a franchise associated with a regeneration of the area. That will be achieved, in part, timetable, so I suppose one could say that that gives it a by much greater connectivity between Kent and areas certain degree of definition, but the process has always such as the docklands, the midlands and the north of been as described. The hon. Gentleman made frequent England. The current timetable started on 13 December reference to 16 people writing timetables. People may be 2009. It represents the biggest change to train services engaged in writing timetables as part of their role, but in the area for more than 50 years. It offers integrated to suggest that there are 16 people sitting around doing main line, metro and high-speed services across nothing but writing timetables is perhaps disingenuous. Kent, south-east London and East Sussex, and offers more choice to people who live or work in Kent or visit As I was saying, consultations took place as far back the area. as 2003 and 2004 to determine the minimum service level required to meet current and future demand in Hugh Robertson: I do not want to disrupt the Minister the region. The Strategic Rail Authority published the too much early on but, in a sense, he has put his finger findings from that consultation in January 2005 in the on the problem. He just said that the great advantage is integrated Kent franchise stakeholder briefing document. 121WH Kent Coast Railway Line10 MARCH 2010 Kent Coast Railway Line 122WH

[Chris Mole] are not significant, the Department feels that a typical high-speed journey time of 1 hour and 31 minutes from The document’s objectives require potential franchisees Margate to St. Pancras during the morning peak represents to develop and deliver a financially and operationally a significant time saving for travel to London. It represents robust strategy; deliver a safe and reliable high-quality an approximate time-saving of 15 to 25 minutes on service for customers; deliver value-for-money services; main line services to London Cannon Street and London support the development of the Government’s communities Victoria stations. plan in the south-east to meet the transport needs of It is recognised that journeys on main line services defined areas and deliver accurate information on services along the Kent coast generally take longer than they did and future demand to enable the development of the before the introduction of the new timetable. That is franchise during its term and for the next refranchising because they call at more stations, and that is based on of the integrated Kent franchise. the desire to improve choice for customers. In addition The franchise was awarded to Southeastern in 2006. to stops at those new stations, all destinations scheduled Since then, Southeastern has undertaken further extensive before December continue to be served. consultation with local stakeholders as it has developed I heard the concerns of the hon. Member for Faversham the detailed timetable required to meet the specification. and Mid-Kent about Selling, which I will certainly take Southeastern has also undertaken extensive market research on board and consider, as well as his concerns about the on travel patterns and preferences across its network. stabling of class 395 trains at Faversham. Although I That study looked at demand for services now and in am sure that he is engaging with his local authority over the future. It is important to set out exactly what his concerns about noise, I will commit to talking to services are available for customers travelling along the Southeastern because the concerns are obviously real Kent coast. The December 2009 timetable specifies and immediate for his constituents. services along the Kent coast to London Cannon Street, I am aware that there has been a performance problem London Victoria, London Bridge and London St. Pancras on the Southeastern network since the end of December stations, so services operate to four London terminal 2009. That has been caused principally by the adverse stations, whereas most other train operators serve only weather conditions and unreliable infrastructure. Having one or, if they are lucky, two London terminal stations. said that, on a number of days, over 93 per cent. of As a result of the new timetable, there are fewer trains arrived on time. It is important to state that poor services to London Bridge and Cannon Street in the performance on the Southeastern network since the early morning and late evening, and fewer services to introduction of the December 2009 timetable is not a London Victoria during peak times. However, with the result of the introduction of the high-speed service. introduction of high-speed services, the overall number Since the introduction of the Southeastern franchise of trains is broadly the same as it was before the new in April 2006, performance on the Southeastern network timetable was introduced. That means that Southeastern has improved markedly. At the end of rail industry customers along the Kent coast now enjoy unparalleled period 9, from 15 November to 12 December 2009, access to and from London and have a fantastic number Southeastern achieved a public performance measure of journey options. moving annual average score of 91.1 per cent. That The introduction of high-speed services has required figure has dropped since the new timetable was introduced a restructuring of the service patterns on the Southeastern but, as has been mentioned, that is due to adverse network to account for introducing services to London weather conditions and infrastructure reliability problems. St. Pancras. The changes are founded on the premise of The level of investment that Southeastern has implemented developing a better timetable based on meeting customer since the commencement of its franchise in April 2006, demand and providing greater choice in stations served. with almost £700 million invested in new rolling stock For example, commuters can, if they wish, choose to and infrastructural improvements, reflects the general travel to St. Pancras, which offers, as I suggested, excellent improvement in performance on the Southeastern network. connections to many parts of London. It has been suggested that there is little demand for high-speed services and the requirement to call at Mr. Gale: The Minister reading a prepared script St. Pancras. It has also been claimed that the majority quickly will not make any difference to the people we of people who use Kent coastal services wish to travel have been talking about for the past hour. They do not to London Cannon Street and London Victoria stations. want to go to St. Pancras. A journey is from the point at Since the commencement of its franchise in April 2006, which someone leaves home to the point at which they Southeastern has undertaken extensive market research arrive where they want to be, whether that is back home into travel patterns and preferences across its network. or their place of work. If he adds the time that it takes That research indicated that St. Pancras was an attractive to get from St. Pancras to virtually anywhere that destination for people in Kent, and that the improved anybody wants to be, he will find that it is a longer journey times resulting from the introduction of high-speed journey at more expense. He cannot gainsay that. I have services across Kent would lead to a dramatically different the details from the Department with me. It is not demand for rail services in Kent. Southeastern’s research improved choice; it is nonsense. confirmed that the specification for the franchise was correct and that a number off-peak leisure markets Chris Mole: The hon. Gentleman has his views—others could be developed as a result of the introduction of the beg to differ. high-speed service. It is important to recognise that introducing these The standard forecast modelling tools used in the rail services has significantly reduced journey times to several industry suggest that it generally takes some years for a parts of Kent and, while the hon. Gentleman has made new market to reach its full potential. The Department’s the argument that journey time-savings for his constituents view is that it is far too early to judge the merits of the 123WH Kent Coast Railway Line 10 MARCH 2010 124WH recently introduced high-speed services to St. Pancras. Repatriation of Historical Objects That is not meant to imply that the service is not being monitored rigorously, but it does mean that snap judgements will not be made about the success of the new services. 4pm The argument has also been made that customers Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): I from the constituency of the hon. Member for North am grateful to have secured this debate, Mr. Benton, Thanet are not using the high-speed service. Information and I am pleased to see the Minister in attendance. A provided by Southeastern indicates that in the four-week few weeks ago, when travelling from my constituency to period between 11 January 2010 and 6 February 2010, London, I noticed something interesting at Paddington one in three journeys from his constituency took place tube station, and other tube stations after that. It was a on high-speed services, which represents a good take-up picture of a Lewis chessman on a poster. It was a rate during the short period for which the service has welcome sight, but the caption said, “AD 1150-1200” been operating. In conclusion, the Department, train and “Norway”. I was stunned, because there was no operators and other stakeholders have worked hard to mention of the Isle of Lewis. It was as if the connection deliver high-speed trains to Kent successfully. Inevitably, with Lewis had been airbrushed from history. there have been changes to the timetable affecting other The chessmen are expertly crafted examples from the services, but it is early days to judge the final pattern of Viking civilisation in my constituency. We know two usage and satisfaction in Kent. historical facts about them. They were made from walrus ivory, and they were found in Lewis in 1831. The director of the British Museum informed me that most scholars believe that the chessmen were crafted in Norway, because a piece of a queen that was found in Trondheim resembled the Lewis chessmen. That does not change the fact that they were found in, and are important to my constituency, and they could have been manufactured in Lewis, Ireland or elsewhere in the area of Viking civilisation and then traded. The only geographical location linked to the chess pieces is the Isle of Lewis, where they were buried for hundreds of years. I would love to know what incontrovertible evidence the British Museum has to assert in its poster campaign that Norway was the place of origin of the Lewis chess pieces. The museum’s defence in The Times was that the Hebrides were then under the rule of a Norwegian king. However, when England was under French rule, it was not France. Is airbrushing the future of historical objects found in the United Kingdom and retained by the British Museum? There are other places where historical objects have been deleted from history. Is that what the people of the midlands should expect for its magnificent Staffordshire hoard? I certainly hope not.

Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. We talk about the Elgin marbles and so on, but an artefact from north Wales—a famous early Welsh gold cape—is in the British Museum and will not be released back to Wales. Such artefacts are part of our collective national memory. They are important, and should be returned.

Mr. MacNeil: My hon. Friend makes a good point. The matter affects not just the Outer Hebrides, Scotland or Wales, but England. Perhaps in time the museum will have a more enlightened understanding. Surely it is best if historical artefacts are retained in the area where they are found. Whether by Act of Parliament or an alteration in museum policy, something must change because what made sense in the 19th century may now be a dated approach. Why must everything be in London? It seems to be historical centralisation and imperialism. Since their sale to the British Museum in 1831 for £30, the chessmen were lent to the islands in 1995, and are expected to return in 2011. When visitors arrive at Stornoway by ferry or plane, they are greeted at the airport and the ferry terminal by huge wooden figures 125WH Repatriation of Historical Objects10 MARCH 2010 Repatriation of Historical Objects 126WH

[Mr. MacNeil] in 1931 or 2001 rather than 1831, I do not believe that our cultural heritage would have been sold for £30—a modelled on the chessmen, such is our pride in them. veritable 30 pieces of silver. Why the British Museum has a colonial attitude of Today, in more enlightened times, the museum has keeping artefacts that belong to another place and been offered a good deal by the local council, Comhairle another people is beyond me. nan Eilean Siar. Its chief executive, Malcolm Burr, said that the chessmen could be housed in the museum nan John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): I congratulate Eilean Siar, and that finance for their security would my hon. Friend on securing this debate. He referred to not be a problem. He also suggested that the British people arriving at the airport, and it strikes me that Museum could open up an extension to its main campus some of them will be tourists. Does he think the boost in London in the museum nan Eilean Siar itself. This is to tourism of having the Lewis chessmen in Lewis just one idea to bring at least some of the chessmen would be greater than the loss to tourism in London back to their home. from not having them? The effect would be much greater in Lewis, and London could probably cope without Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): The devastation if it lost such a high-profile item. hon. Gentleman is reasonable in his acceptance that there should be a British museum in Lewis, which I tend Mr. MacNeil: My hon. Friend makes a good point, to think of as a third country, separate from both and it is obvious that Lewis is bringing culture to Scotland and England. Could there not be some reciprocity London. London could live without the chessmen, but in the process? Richard II’s remains are as yet undiscovered. the effect on Lewis would be immeasurable. I am impressed Will the hon. Gentleman use his good offices to lobby that the Kelvingrove museum in Glasgow returned a the Scottish Government to make a contribution to ghost dance shirt belonging to the Oglala Sioux after analysing remains at the abbey to see whether they their repeated attempts to have it repatriated. contain the DNA of Richard II, so that they can be The British Museum holds 82 of the 93 chess pieces returned to this country? in London, leaving only 11 for Scotland and none for the Isle of Lewis. Such is the museum’s perceived Mr. MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman is a fellow soul intransigence that we have none locally, a minimal with an interest in his nation’s history. I am aware of the number in our national capital, Edinburgh, and the burial in 1419 of what could be Richard II’s remains, majority in the state capital, London. In Lewis, they and it would be interesting to know whether that is so. would be in their own cultural and historic setting. In We have the technology today to find out. Lewis, they would be a year-round tourist attraction to In 1685, a Northumbrian king was, sadly from the add to the splendid scenery of the Hebrides, which is hon. Gentleman’s point of view, defeated at 3 o’clock arguably a more weather-dependent asset. on Saturday 20 May—I do not know the exact minute—and The museum’s high-handed attitude does not end his body was subsequently taken to Iona, so there may with the chessmen. We have already heard about artefacts be more than one English monarch interred in Scotland. from Wales being held in London. The Fishpool hoard We may not want to go into the details of why they are is not in Ravenshead; the 8,500 pieces of the Cuerdale interred in Scotland. hoard are not in Lancashire; and the Hoxne hoard is not in Suffolk. The arguments for the chessmen being Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman held in Lewis have been stated time and again. Bonnie is making a compelling argument. I came here on the Greer, deputy chair of the board of trustees of the other side, but I am listening carefully, and he is making Museum said: his points extremely well. I like the idea of an extension “As far as I’m concerned on a personal level, they”— to the British Museum in Lewis. Will he tell the House the chessmen— how many of the chess pieces he would expect to be there, and will he confirm that their conservation and “will always remain at the British Museum.” its funding in future would be secured? As a Hebridean defending our indigenous rights, I did not expect the stiletto of Bonnie Greer to trample all Mr. MacNeil: Ultimately, I am looking for any over our hopes. I am sure that she did not want to seem mechanism whatsoever to get the chess pieces back to like a queen from a position of power, disregarding Lewis. From correspondence that we have had, the chief pawns in a game of machismo. executive of Comhairle nan Eilean Siar, the local council, The Minister asserted in The Scotsman on the 30 January seems confident that it could cope with that. We could 2008 that the chessmen’s home is in London “Today call the exhibition the British Museum or any other and forever”. That was a bold statement, and disappointing name, just as long as we get the chess pieces back to from a Labour Government—[Interruption.] I hope their natural home. Ideally, we want all the pieces, but that that telephone call is from the British Museum we are ready to compromise in the beginning. That is with news that it is listening to our debate, and that the just one of many ideas, and as I have said, to start with chessmen will go to Lewis. we could have a third of the pieces in the Outer Hebrides, Under section 5(1) of the British Museum Act 1963, a third in Edinburgh and a third in London. which was made in this place, the British Museum may Nearly 220,000 people visited my islands last year, not sell items that are believed to have been crafted and, with the introduction of the road equivalent tariff, before 1850, but under section 4 of the same act it is it has never been easier to get to the Outer Hebrides. If allowed to lend pieces of the collection. Perhaps it you have any spare time this summer, Mr. Benton, I could do so permanently if there is no change in the law. suggest that a visit to the Isle of Lewis might be well Had the hand of fate turned up those pieces to daylight worth while. It could then be continued downwards 127WH Repatriation of Historical Objects10 MARCH 2010 Repatriation of Historical Objects 128WH through the Isle of Harris, North Uist, Benbecula, to experience the chessmen in the place where they South Uist and Barra. Who knows, perhaps if you do came from. Therefore, I reiterate my request to move that in a few years’ time, you will be able to see the the chessmen permanently—under whatever label is Lewis chessmen. chosen to describe that movement—back to the Outer The chessmen would be a great draw. Perhaps there Hebrides. are more historical artefacts to be found. Perhaps in Historical objects are not just pieces of art, gold or future we might see grandmasters playing chess with the jewellery, but gateways to the past. Such gateways are Lewis chess pieces in Stornoway, or certainly have them accentuated by the landscape, scenery and the society placed in the vicinity of such a match. that created them. Perhaps such a move will help people connect in a better way with the chessmen and the Adam Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): civilisation that produced them if they are viewed in As ever, my hon. Friend makes his case persuasively, Lewis, rather than in a glass case in the middle of which contrasts with the somewhat intransigent attitude London. hitherto of the British Museum. However, there is a general principle at stake, which is that artefacts that 4.14 pm have a particular significance to a place, either culturally or historically, need to be returned to their place of The Minister of State, Department for Culture, Media origin. I cite the example of the so-called Lichfield and Sport (Margaret Hodge): I join other hon. Members gospels, which are currently in Lichfield cathedral. They in congratulating the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan are actually the Llandeilo gospels, which were produced an Iar (Mr. MacNeil) on securing this opportunity for in Wales in the eighth century and contain the earliest us to debate the repatriation of historical objects yet example of written Welsh. It is absolutely scandalous again. He knows my views, because I have expressed that the only gospels to have survived from Wales them a number of times in the Scottish press. should be in an English cathedral. They should be taken I will start by saying something about the objects in home to my constituency. our museums, the importance of national collections, and the pleasure and knowledge that they bring to us Mr. MacNeil: As I have learned after being in this all. Museums collect and display the greatest achievements House for five years, the word of Plaid Cymru can often of humankind. However, they are not just a visual be taken as gospel. This time, a case is being made for record of our past. Modern museums are now worldwide the gospel. centres of learning and interpretation, enabling us to My point is that we are willing to work hard to bring make sense of what our ancestors experienced, challenging some, if not all, these historical artefacts back to their our perceptions and changing the way we look at the place of origin—the place where they were found. We world. are not an impediment to change. Perhaps in some ways Our national museums are centres of excellence and we need a knight in shining ivory to help us, the underdogs, scholarship and part of a wider international web of against the impediments of the British Museum. information sharing—a great collection in most of our As I am sure the Minister knows, when the Staffordshire great museums. It is not about promoting nationalism; hoard was on display in Birmingham and Stoke-on-Trent, the focus is on promoting an understanding of our over 80,000 people queued for upwards of three hours shared past so that we can better deal with the present to view it in those two different places. Put simply, the and tackle the problems of the future. economic boon that such historical objects could generate As the hon. Gentleman knows, I profoundly disagree is vast. As my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen, with the underlying premise of his argument that culture East and Dinefwr (Adam Price) said, we are asking for is to be enjoyed only by the nation most closely identified the opportunity to allow people to experience the chessmen with it. Indeed, it is through understanding each other’s in the place that they came from. cultures and sharing the fine artefacts, great literature and important works of art that are produced by individuals Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): Hon. Members in countries across the world, that we start building a have mentioned the Staffordshire hoard and Lichfield shared identity, tolerant understanding, and all those cathedral, and both of those are close to my Staffordshire things that are so essential for peace and cohesion constituency. I have considerable sympathy with the throughout the world. idea that there should be some return, perhaps on the Furthermore, if beautiful artefacts are created, they basis of a loan. In the enlightened view taken by the should be enjoyed as widely as possible, not just in one hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr. MacNeil), nation. They do not enhance the lives of just one there could be a re-siting under the auspices of the community, but of all of us in all our communities. The British Museum itself. The situation seems extraordinary, advent of digitisation enables us to share more widely and there should be some recognition and an opportunity the wonderful treasures that we are privileged to enjoy for people who come from a specific area to have access in our great national museums. to artefacts in the way that the hon. Gentleman describes. There are similar arguments across Europe. However, I John Mason: I completely agree with the point of am not quite sure how to get that into the framework of sharing culture widely and seeing artefacts and so on. the British Museum Act 1963. However, does the Minister accept that historically, the sharing has not been very even? Perhaps those countries Mr. MacNeil: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman that used to have an empire, or were powerful for for his sympathy, and I am glad that we are building whatever reason, have tended to suck-in worldwide consensus across several parties this afternoon. As I artefacts and such things. I accept that in Glasgow that said, we are asking for people to have the opportunity was the case. We felt that the shirt that was mentioned 129WH Repatriation of Historical Objects10 MARCH 2010 Repatriation of Historical Objects 130WH

[John Mason] hon. Members participating in today’s debate continue to support the arm’s length principle, which means that earlier should go back to North America, as that is museum trustees are responsible for managing the where it would be better placed, and I give respect to collections in their care. The Government have great Glasgow city council for that. faith in their ability. Changing that principle would be a dangerous and retrograde move, allowing cultural and Margaret Hodge: If the hon. Gentleman is arguing artistic decisions to be determined by political views about how we came to have historical connections in and prejudices. one place, I have sympathy with his argument. However, Museum trustees have a statutory duty to protect the things are where they are, and if we wish them to be nation’s collections. Section 3 of the British Museum shared, the British Museum has an excellent, first-class Act 1963 imposes a duty on the trustees of the British record in both collaboration and giving out loans. The Museum: British Museum is a worldwide brand in the way that it “to keep the objects comprised in the collections of the Museum shows its artefacts online. There are ways of sharing within the authorised repositories of the Museum, except in so that do not necessarily reside in ownership. I think that far as they may consider it expedient to remove them temporarily the British Museum excels in its record of trying to for any purpose connected with the administration of the Museum ensure that it shares its wonders with as wide an audience and the care of its collections.” as possible. The trustees of our national collections are thus legally The British Museum was one of the first institutions responsible for their collections. Leaving the question of in this country to be named “British”, but its objective whether an object should be de-accessioned to the is to have collections representing the whole world trustees’ discretion is consistent with those legal principles. under its roof, so as to enable everyone to enjoy its A further issue is that the legal position on restitution experiences which, of course, are free of charge. The is that the British Museum Act prevents the museum museum is what so many people come to London to see. from removing objects from its collections. Other national The First Emperor exhibition was the biggest exhibition museums have similar statutory restrictions. We have mounted by the British Museum since that of Tutankhamun looked at whether it would be appropriate to lift those in 1972 and it enjoyed 850,000 visitors. The British statutory restrictions and under what circumstances. As Museum is now more popular than Blackpool pleasure hon. Members probably know, we have done so in two beach in attracting people to come here. [Interruption.] instances: the law was changed in 2005 to allow nine Hon. Members may not think so, but Blackpool is still named national museums to de-accession human remains an iconic and important attraction. Despite the difficulties if they considered it appropriate to do so; and we had it faces, Blackpool is still one of the most popular the Holocaust (Return of Cultural Objects) Act 2009, tourist destinations. The resources put into Blackpool which allows 17 national collections to return items lost by the Government have helped to restore it to its or stolen during the Nazi era following a recommendation previous great strength as a tourist destination. by the Spoliation Advisory Panel. The latter was a private Member’s Bill, but the Government considered Mr. Llwyd: May I go back to what the Minister said that allowing restitution to take place in those specific about the successful Chinese exhibition? It was successful circumstances was supported by a strong moral case. because the Chinese Government saw fit to provide I now want to deal with the particular issues raised by those artefacts on a lengthy loan, which is exactly what the Lewis chessmen. As the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan is being asked for now. an Iar knows, my views are clear. However, as my officials always remind me, decisions relating to the Margaret Hodge: The British Museum has made just Lewis chessmen and other objects in the collection of such loan arrangements with a number of Scottish the British Museum are a matter for the British Museum museums and institutions—I want to come to that, so I trustees and not for me as a politician. had better move on—so that exhibits can form a coherent part of the story that the British Museum tells of the I ask the hon. Gentleman to consider my next point. history of the world and yet be enjoyed by the residents Nowadays, most scholars who have examined the chessmen of Scotland. I shall give way, although I might not get generally agree that the most likely place of manufacture to the point of my speech. was Trondheim in Norway. The closest stylistic links for the decoration of the chessmen are to be found in the Bob Spink: May I take the Minister back to her art and architecture of 12th century Trondheim and digitisation argument, which works in both directions? Scandinavia. In the 19th century, part of a queen, If the British Museum, for instance, were to move a similar in style to the Lewis pieces, was discovered in third of the artefacts back to Lewis, digitisation would Trondheim. Dr. David Caldwell, who is the keeper of mean that there was no impediment to the scholarship Scotland and Europe at the National Museum of Scotland, of the museum and would increase world knowledge visited Lewis recently with a team of researchers in and access to those wonderful objects. preparation for the touring exhibition of the chessmen in 2011. He said publicly: Margaret Hodge: Although I respect the hon. “We certainly…believe the pieces are Scandinavian in origin, Gentleman’s views, he perhaps does not appreciate my perhaps made in a workshop by several masters in a city like argument, which is that a coherent story about the Trondheim.” history of the world is being told within the British Mr. Cash: On that analogy, the Minister might be Museum. arguing that the Bayeux tapestry should be returned to As the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar knows, the United Kingdom on the grounds that it was made a long-standing principle in the UK supported by successive by nuns in England—so we are told. Does she realise Governments is that politicians do not interfere in the that there is a certain inconsistency in enlarging the management of museum collections. I hope that all issue into a European or even a global dimension? 131WH Repatriation of Historical Objects 10 MARCH 2010 132WH

Margaret Hodge: I do not agree at all, but I was International Financial Transactions (Tax) dealing with a separate argument about a particular historical link based on where the Lewis chessmen were made. All I am saying is that most of those with a much 4.30 pm greater knowledge than I have on the origins of the Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North) (Lab): This chessmen think that the pieces did not originate in debate is on a subject that most of us know as the Robin Lewis but in Norway. I hold by my main argument that Hood tax, but as we have to use parliamentary language the British Museum contains, in its artefacts, the history it has been called something else. I have some news hot of Britain and the world. As such, it is important that off the press that even you, Mr. Benton, may not be the whole collection should be held together and not aware of. Less than an hour ago, the European Parliament pulled apart. voted 536 to 80 in support of a Robin Hood tax—an international finance tax. I think that we would all Mr. MacNeil: I asserted what the chessmen were welcome that. made of, where they were found and where they were I am particularly pleased to open this debate because, most likely buried for hundreds of years previously—we being born and bred in Nottingham and being one of know nothing else. I note caveats of “most likely” and the city’s representatives in Parliament, I have a particular “believe”, but the Lewis chessmen were found in Lewis connection to a Robin Hood tax. The consensus building and we know nothing else for certain. for such a tax is so remarkable that it even has the active support of the sheriff of Nottingham. I hope that the Margaret Hodge: With the greatest respect, such Government will be a little more sympathetic today to caveats are usually put in because establishing such everything to do with Robin Hood than was the case in details is difficult. However, those with much better the days of King John, but the omens are good. At last archaeological knowledge than either of us believe that year’s G20 summit in Pittsburgh, the Prime Minister the chessmen were Scandinavian in origin. called for serious consideration to be given to a financial transaction tax. Momentum is gathering around the Mr. Pelling: Is such displacement of chessmen world. From Europe to Japan, Finance Ministers from recognition, in many ways, of the decline of the economy the world’s leading economies have started to back such of Trondheim in that part of the middle ages? After all, a tax. that part of Scotland has Scandinavian connections. Most importantly, would the Minister accept the rationality Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s of arguing for the exceptional support for the local Bush) (Lab): My hon. Friend said that there is consensus. economy if people were travelling to see the chessmen? I quickly checked the early-day motion in support of a Leaving aside issues of origin and nationality, would Robin Hood tax before coming to the Chamber, and I that not be a strong argument for at least some of the noted that of the 97 signatories only two were Conservative pieces to be placed in Lewis? Members. Does my hon. Friend agree that that may have something to do with the fact that the Electoral Margaret Hodge: The chessmen legally came into the Commission’s register of donations shows that so much possession of the British Museum. That is an important comes from investment bankers and venture capitalists, point. They form a key part of the British Museum including £50,000 to my opponents. Who does he think collection—hence they were used recently in the radio Conservative candidates and MPs will represent—the programme “A History of the World in 100 Objects”. people supporting the tax or those supporting the bankers? The chessmen are important. Would they be a tourist attraction if relocated? Probably, yes, but that is dealt Mr. Allen: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. with sensitively by the British Museum through its He made the point in his inimitable way. Colleagues loans policy. from all parties supported the Robin Hood tax when it In the minute that I have left, I emphasise that the was launched in the House a week or so ago. I, for one, British Museum has close relations with National Museums want it to be done on a non-partisan, all-party basis, so Scotland and the National Galleries of Scotland, frequently that we have something lasting. lending material to Edinburgh. I am delighted that, in 2010 and 2011, the British Museum will be partnering Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab) rose— National Museums Scotland in a Scotland-wide tour of the chessmen, supported by the Scottish Government. Mr. Allen: I give way to my hon. Friend, who Twenty-four pieces from the British Museum will join masterminded the early-day motion referred to earlier. six from the Edinburgh collections to be seen in four venues in Scotland. Mr. Hoyle: I welcome you to the Chair, Mr. Benton, I hope that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an and I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this Iar will continue to work with the British Museum in debate. As he pointed out, it is important that it remains the interests of the people in his constituency, to ensure a cross-party subject. Does he agree that we want to see co-operation between the British Museum and museums even more names on the early-day motion, and that that in Scotland, so that the wonderful Lewis chessmen can is a good way to ensure that the public know that we are be enjoyed by all. on their side and are challenging the world’s banks?

Mr. Allen: We do not want support for this tax to come and go. Something so significant has to be set up and needs to be kept in existence; it cannot be done in a few weeks or by one Government. I strongly hope that it will be the property not only of all parties but above 133WH International Financial Transactions 10 MARCH 2010 International Financial Transactions 134WH (Tax) (Tax) [Mr. Allen] 1 per cent. Because the take is so small and the consequences so large, if we in this country can show leadership I have all—this would be one of its strengths—the property of a feeling that it will quickly become international. the public. If the money that we hope to raise is to be Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): I spent in the right way, it must have public ownership in congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. the broadest sense, so that the public can hold the I, too, have signed the early-day motion. Government to account. We do not want to invent a new tax only for additionality to take away money that Would the hon. Gentleman agree that there might be the Government would already have spent and use the some merit in debating the type of tax? The Tobin tax Robin Hood tax to fill the gap. can reduce liquidity and the ease of trading. Would it not be better to go down the route suggested by the Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ Conservative party in the distant past of a windfall tax, Co-op): I congratulate my hon. Friend on taking this which taxes the taxpayer paid-for liquidity provided to campaign forward. On the question of how the money the banking sector, from which bankers have made could be spent, earlier this afternoon, the Environmental excess profits and therefore had excess bonuses? Audit Committee raised the matter of the income from such a tax, saying that among other things, it could be Mr. Allen: The hon. Gentleman makes a thoughtful used to help tackle deforestation as part of our efforts contribution today, just as he did at the meeting that set against climate change, or to help the economies of off our campaign on the Robin Hood tax. I hope that developing countries. Those would be two uses of the he will allow us to bring his expertise into the tent, so proceeds from such a tax. that we can see what else can be done. If there are other possibilities, we should certainly entertain them. I hope Mr. Allen: We do not want to spend the money before that we will be able to use the hon. Gentleman’s ingenuity we have it. None the less, it is important to define some to ensure that the technical details of the Robin Hood things relatively early. We are very much still at the tax are viable. I look forward to working with him. beginning, but we need to settle soon those things that could command broad public support both globally—the John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): I declare sort of things mentioned by my hon. Friend—and an interest, as I am involved in software in the financial internally, so that a number of key issues can be seen to services sector. The UK already has a law on tax and develop. stamp duty. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that part of I am probably well known for talking about early this measure is looking globally at how damaging the intervention, and the need to help babies, children and long-term misuse of tax havens has been? young people to develop their social and emotional Mr. Allen: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting potential. That will take a generation to develop. If the point, but at the beginning of this process, we should be money is tied to a long-term initiative such as an full of excitement and optimism about what something international financial transactions tax, over decades like a Robin Hood tax, if we could make it work, could we will see the development of something positive. In do and what it could generate and mean reputationally. the global sphere, deforestation would fall very much If we consider the economic crisis over the past couple into that category. of years, we can see that politicians and bankers have Dr. Nick Palmer (Broxtowe) (Lab): I am grateful to probably not covered themselves in glory. It is incumbent my hon. Friend, my colleague from Robin Hood land, on both classes of people to look more imaginatively at for giving way. Does he agree that it is essential that any how we can raise money, not least for the causes that such proposal should be adopted on a global basis, interest us both internationally and at home. Politicians because the money would otherwise simply flee to those should use their imagination and work with the bankers, areas that do not provide it? I therefore welcome the who bear some responsibility for where our economy fact that the Government, particularly the Prime Minister, lies at the moment. By working on something that has have been taking it forward, and that there has been a such high-level impact and public support and small measure of success in securing interest from the European rates of requesting taxation levels—0.005 per cent. of Union and the United States in such an initiative. 1 per cent.—we could, amazingly, go some way towards restoring our reputations. Mr. Allen: It is important that the objective of such a tax is international, as there is always the possibility Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): I do not want to that people could move money, or move the base where cast aspersions on such a great idea, but is the hon. they make their transactions. However, we have to start Gentleman aware that there is some doubt about Robin somewhere. We cannot suddenly say that tomorrow it Hood’s role as expressed in a recent historical survey? will be global. Someone has to make the move; someone In fact, he was engaged in loaning money rather than has to show leadership. taking it. Having said that, does the hon. Gentleman accept that there is a problem in taking money on a My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) treaty footing, then not knowing who is responsible for was right about the Prime Minister raising this issue the expenditure of that money and for the accountability early at the Pittsburgh summit last year, and I hope that that is necessary to ensure that it is spent properly? this Parliament, too, will exercise such leadership. If we do achieve a cross-party effort, I believe that many Mr. Allen: My hon. Friend—if I may call him that— others will quickly follow. It is one of those things about raises several good points and one total lying falsehood. which people will say, “Why didn’t we do this a long I have lots of other unparliamentary expressions about time ago?” It will raise large amounts of money and it his account of Robin Hood. One thing that is not in will cost a minuscule, virtually invisible, percentage of dispute, however, is Nottingham castle, which still exists. the take on transactions around the globe. One figure There is also a sheriff of Nottingham and none but the mentioned is 0.005 per cent—that is five thousandths of most misguided could possibly doubt the fact that there 135WH International Financial Transactions 10 MARCH 2010 International Financial Transactions 136WH (Tax) (Tax) lived in Sherwood forest someone who took from the those present who are missing out on my gems to access rich and gave to the poor. The proposal before us is not the website and see some of the basic planks of the so extreme. I am talking about assisting bankers to campaign and the answers to many of those frequently recover their reputation at a tiny, virtually imperceptible, asked questions. level of taxation so that they can be seen to be not merely exploiting the financial system but putting in Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I thank my hon. Friend some social good, too. for securing this debate. He has been as generous as he possibly can be to the banks and financial institutions. On the more serious point that has just been made, At the end of the day, it should be recognised that they much work still needs to be done. We are at the beginning bear responsibility for causing the recession, the economic of a very long campaign, and I am sure that the issues effects of which are felt by constituencies such as his raised need to be tackled and explained clearly. We are and mine. I refer here to all those who have lost their on the way to doing that. Given that the Prime Minister jobs and suffered greatly. It is clear that the financial has strongly supported such a scheme, I want to ask my institutions, which have an important role to play in the hon. Friend the Minister what work, research and analysis economy by providing lots of jobs, should make good the Treasury is doing to assess whether a Robin Hood what they have done wrong. However, why should we tax is workable? The Prime Minister does not throw out have to have a campaign to bring this to their attention? such phrases in front of the G20 willy-nilly. He clearly Should they not come to us and say, “We agree that we has a wish to see this proposal thought through very should be doing this. It is the right, moral thing to do”? carefully, and I would like to know quite specifically Does my hon. Friend not agree that that is the case? from my hon. Friend what the Treasury is doing about They should come in themselves and talk about putting it. He may not be able to answer this next question, but such a scheme in place . will we be in a position to float the idea at the Dispatch Box in the Budget, which I understand is about two Mr. Allen: The campaign itself—I do not speak for weeks away? Can we at least say that the idea is being the campaign—is a very broad coalition, and it would considered seriously, as we would expect of any welcome with open arms the expertise of bankers and announcement by the Prime Minister? of people involved in international finance. It should invite them in to help find ways forward, to answer Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab) rose— some of those technical questions and, as I mentioned Mr. Allen: I give way to my hon. Friend, who organised earlier, to salvage some reputational status, which has the meeting in Parliament and raised this issue for been massively diminished over recent years. Members of all parties. I must sit down and let the Minister respond and put the Government’s view on record. I have just a couple Mr. Anderson: It is a pleasure to be in front of you more things to say. We are aware of the difficulty of today, Mr. Benton. I welcome the good work that is starting off such a scheme and starting in one country, being done by my hon. Friend. He talked about politicians but it has to start somewhere and, therefore, perhaps using their imagination, but is it not time for bankers to we, with the leadership of our Prime Minister, can do use theirs? I do not mean by imagining ways in which that. Secondly, some people have raised moral reservations they can avoid making a contribution towards this about making money from something that some may country and the world, but by helping. The Prime regard as not being of the highest international standard. Minister supports that idea, as does Adair Turner who, If that were the case, we would never raise anything in his previous existence, would probably never have from tobacco or alcohol, and we should consider this as supported such a move. being in the same pot as those things. Financial institutions’ Mr. Allen: My hon. Friend pulled together the trade across exchanges goes on, and we should be parliamentary aspect of the Robin Hood campaign. He taking a tiny slice of it. more than anyone knows that this is a very broad I have a lot more to say, but it is probably fairer if I sit coalition that includes not just the obvious figureheads down. Many Members are here today, and many more from the world of entertainment, theatre and celebrity could not come. There is great interest in the issue. The but hard-working third sector organisations such as campaign proper is kicking off now with fascinating Barnado’s, Friends of the Earth, Oxfam and many, materials, including clips shown in cinemas and elsewhere. many others. On the point that he raises, there needs to Celebrities have yet to enter the field to raise its profile, be a new social contract between bankers, on the one but I think that it will be a big issue, like Live Aid or hand, and the rest of society. We will need to have Make Poverty History. All parties should get involved international flows of currency—they are absolutely on a non-partisan basis to make it work globally and enormous and dwarf the GDP of every country in the domestically. I hope that the Minister has listened to world—but some of that can be used for purposes that colleagues from all parties in this debate and will have benefit the whole world and individual nations. Somehow news for us. Perhaps the issue will even find a place in it is incumbent on those in international finance and the Budget. banking to say, “We cannot go on as we were. We need to restore our reputation and we want to be part of the 4.51 pm family.” Perhaps this scheme is one way in which they, The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen with all their financial expertise, can move things forward. Timms): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for I had a speech, but I have given way many times to Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) on securing this debate demonstrate the support and the interest on the issue and remark, as he did, on the high level of interest and throughout the House. It is probably more important to the large number of interventions, which reflect a great demonstrate that than it is for me to put on record some deal of public interest. I commend the Robin Hood tax of the key points of the campaign. Those points are campaign for drawing attention to an important current available on the Robin Hood tax website, and I ask all public debate, and all those involved for the energy, 137WH International Financial Transactions 10 MARCH 2010 International Financial Transactions 138WH (Tax) (Tax) [Mr. Stephen Timms] Geographic coverage is also important, as my hon. Friend acknowledged. The Prime Minister made it clear imagination and enthusiasm that they have invested in in November, as my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe it. I accept my hon. Friend’s point that nobody better (Dr. Palmer) mentioned in his intervention, that a could speak in the House for the Robin Hood tax transaction tax, like the other ideas being discussed, campaign than a Member for Nottingham. would need to be globally agreed and implemented in As the world begins to emerge from the worst of the order to be effective. We live in an increasingly globalised global financial crisis, people’s minds are, rightly, turning world and use an increasingly globalised financial system. from its immediate and urgent challenges to ways to We in the G20 now have the ability to consider such prevent another, similar crisis in future, or at least matters on a worldwide basis, and the G20’s work last mitigate the impacts of such a crisis. As my hon. Friend year under the UK presidency was successful. We have the Member for Halton (Derek Twigg) pointed out, the a forum for considering such matters. There are many impacts have been big and damaging for many people in questions about implementation, collection and design. the UK and around the world. People are asking what I hope that the IMF report next month will shine a went wrong and how we can avoid making the same light on some of those questions and inform the debate mistakes again. on transaction taxes and other ideas being discussed at the moment. In doing so, people are looking for creative new ideas As well as the IMF, we have supported the European that can help the work being done internationally to Council in asking the European Commission to explore reform the regulation of financial institutions. A lot of the issues. I understand that the debate in the European good work is being done, and there is a sense that we Parliament today, to which my hon. Friend the hon. need to go further. That is the background to what the Member for Nottingham, North referred, concerned Prime Minister said last year in Pittsburgh, as my hon. calling on the European Commission to undertake analysis Friend mentioned, and at the G20 Finance Ministers’ of financial transaction taxes. I took part in the launch meeting at St. Andrews in November, at which I was of the French-led taskforce on international financial present. The Prime Minister set out the need for transactions for development in October, when I underlined “a better economic and social contract between financial institutions its importance in considering the financial and economic and the public based on trust and a just distribution of risks and implications of a new tax. rewards”, With that in mind, I nominated Michael Izza, chief and suggested a number of options, including a global executive of the Institute of Chartered Accountants financial transactions tax. in England and Wales, to serve on the expert group Since then, international debate about the idea has commissioned by the taskforce to explore the feasibility grown louder and wider. Various international bodies of the tax. He has since been elected to chair the group, are considering the issues. The G20 has commissioned and he convened a meeting at the ICAEW’s headquarters work from the International Monetary Fund, which is in the City a week or two ago. Work is under way, and compiling what I think will be an important report, a the group should report on the feasibility of the proposed preliminary version of which is expected at the G20 measures as a form of development financing in the Finance Ministers’ and central bank governors’ meeting spring. next month. That work aims to consider how the financial Another crucial question that we need to ask ourselves sector can contribute to the costs that it has imposed on is what exactly the purpose of such a tax would be. We taxpayers and national Exchequers as a result of need to be clear that a number of different purposes are Government bank bail-outs around the world. being discussed at the moment. Some people suggest that the tax could address a perceived failure in the The report will need to cover a lot of territory. It will financial market and act as grit in the machinery by pick up on many current ideas such as systemic risk creating a disincentive to speculative or socially useless levies, resolution funds and bonus taxes, and I certainly trading. Evidence of such measures’ efficacy for that expect it to cover financial transaction taxes as well. As purpose is unclear at the moment, but some well-informed with any idea for new taxation, it is important that we people have certainly argued that the tax could help. are clear about the detail, the upsides and the downsides in order to take a proper, considered view on whether it Mr. Allen: The Minister mentioned the IMF and the is worth introducing. A lot of serious consideration of European Council. What is the Treasury doing to examine the issues is needed. the issues? We would need to know, for example, the impact of Mr. Timms: At the Treasury, we are keeping a close such a tax on the transactions being taxed and what eye on the debate, but we see it inherently and necessarily that would mean for the financial sector more widely as an international initiative. That is why we believe that and for growth in the economy. How would we ensure the IMF and the European Commission—particularly that financial transactions did not simply evolve into the IMF—have a crucial role in assessing the technical non-taxed forms, which would defeat the purpose of questions and advising Governments of the pros and cons the tax in the first place? We see that in other contexts of moving in that direction. Until we have that advice at when taxes are introduced. One key principle set out by a global level, we cannot do much at the national level. the Prime Minister in November involved economic That is inherent in the nature of the measure. distortion. If we go down the road of imposing such a Apart from dealing with a market failure, the other tax, we must ensure that there are no unintended key argument is that the tax would be a good revenue-raiser consequences that might lead to economic distortions at a time of fiscal consolidation. with a damaging impact overall on the economy. We 5pm must ensure that in attempting to solve one problem, we Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order do not create another somewhere else. No. 10(11)). 13WS Written Ministerial Statements10 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 14WS

The Any Other Business items discussed covered Written Ministerial reports on the outcomes of the December 2009 Copenhagen conference on climate change and the February 2010 Statements EU Informal Competitiveness Council on electric cars; updates on the EU internal market scoreboard of member states transposition of EU directives and on the EU Wednesday 10 March 2010 internal market information system for administrative co-operation; progress on EU services directive implementation; and a Commission update on a proposed BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS a private-public partnership model on the development of the future internet. EU Competitiveness Council The main Research Council items discussed on 2 March were the research and innovation aspects of Europe The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, 2020, the Global Monitoring for the Environment and Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): The EU Competitiveness Security (“GMES”) programme, a Joint Baltic Sea Research Council took place in Brussels on 1 and 2 March 2010 and Development Programme (“BONUS”) and the and the following is a summary of those discussions. International Thermonuclear Experimental Reactor (“ITER”) nuclear fusion research project. The main Internal Market/Industry Council items discussed on 1 March were on industry policy, intellectual The Commission advised that research and innovation property rights enforcement and the Europe 2020 new would be a central theme for the new Europe 2020 long-term EU economic strategy. strategy. The UK said that the framework conditions for investment in research and innovation (R&I) should Council conclusions on EU industrial policy were be improved and suggested using the European Investment adopted after a debate involving divergent opinions Fund to raise a further EUR3 billion from the private between member states, particularly on how much focus sector for venture capital. The UK also called for a there should be on electric cars. The UK (with support greater proportion of the EU budget to be spent on from a number of other member states) successfully these activities. The Commission said a detailed EU argued for the importance of a technology neutral research and innovation plan would be launched in approach to EU support for low-carbon vehicle autumn 2010 which would focus on tackling “grand technologies. The UK also emphasised the need for challenges” such as climate change, energy, food security, open and competitive markets and for a horizontal health and an ageing population. rather than sector specific approach to EU industry policy. At the discussion of GMES, the Commission stressed that it would have a prominent role within a new A Council resolution on enforcement of intellectual European space policy, the requirement for an effective property rights in the EU internal market, which the governance structure and the need to identify further UK supported, was also adopted. The UK and others funding. A progress report was given on BONUS, with called for more transparency in the international anti- the Commission saying it would be a pilot initiative for counterfeiting trade agreement negotiations. The research initiatives in other European marine regions. Commission agreed to raise these transparency issues The Commission also gave an update on ITER, with the EU Trade Commissioner. saying it was vital that the project was delivered at a In the exchange of views on Europe 2020, the reasonable cost and within acceptable levels of risk. The Commission outlined its main themes as being innovation, Commission said that a range of funding options for green growth and social inclusion. There was broad ITER would be put to the Council working group prior support for the Commission’s priorities, with emphasis to further discussion at the May Competitiveness Council. on support for SMEs, better regulation, energy, The Research Council also adopted conclusions on the infrastructure, internal market and competition. The European Research Council and on European researchers UK stressed the need for increased EU venture capital mobility and careers. (particularly for high technology investment) and the importance of the digital economy to the EU. There was general support for the Commission’s proposals on TREASURY governance and for a more social dimension. The presidency undertook to report the Council’s discussion to the Budget Statement General Affairs Council ahead of the forthcoming European Council debate on Europe 2020. The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): At a ministerial lunchtime discussion, Professor Mario I propose to deliver my Budget statement to the House Monti discussed his preliminary views in advance of his on Wednesday 24 March. forthcoming report for the Commission on re-launching the EU internal market. He wanted to promote to business and citizens better enforcement, free movement DEFENCE of services, implementing the digital agenda and real economy measures with acceptable regional, social and Armed Forces Pay Review Body (2010 Report) tax co-ordination policies. The Commission said it planned to follow up the Monti report with a Commission Communication in June 2010. The UK stressed the The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Bob Ainsworth): need to engage with business, to focus on growth and The 2010 report of the Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body jobs and also the importance of services directive (AFPRB) has now been published. I wish to express my implementation. thanks to the Chairman and members of the Review 15WS Written Ministerial Statements10 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS

Body for their report. I am pleased to confirm that the All of the FSA’s operational delivery functions, including AFPRB’s recommendations are to be accepted in full, those of the MHS, will be merged together in a single with implementation effective from 1 April 2010. Operations Group to derive a wide range of benefits, In line with the AFPRB recommendations, the basic including: military salary for officers up to brigadier and equivalents a consistent, strategic view of the enforcement of legislation in the other services, and all other ranks, will increase relating to all Food Business Operators, irrespective of whether by two per cent. In addition, the rates of specialist pay enforcement is undertaken by local or central Government; (including flying pay, submarine pay and diving pay) a structure capable of better strategic delivery against external will also increase by 2 per cent. The Government have expectations and drivers—for example recommendations of also accepted the AFPRB recommendations on a number the 2009 Report of the Public Inquiry into the September 2005 of targeted measures, including the introduction of outbreak of E.coli 0157 in South Wales and recommendations of EU Food and Veterinary Office Missions; financial retention incentives to retain personnel essential to delivering key operational capability and a widening a more cohesive understanding of education and enforcement interventions that work in increasing Food Business Operator of the eligibility for longer separation allowance. The compliance with food hygiene regulations; and AFPRB has also recommended that unpleasant living co-ordinated and consistent support to UK businesses in relation allowance be extended to cover service personnel in to compliance with official controls and other statutory forward operating bases and patrol bases in Afghanistan. requirements. Copies of the Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body report Health and Rural Affairs Ministers in England and are available in the Vote Office and the Library of the Wales have indicated their support for the FSA Board’s House. decision—Ministers in Scotland noted the decision. In line with the process set out in Cabinet Office guidance, Service Complaints Commissioner’s Second Annual formal approval to dissolution of the executive agency Report status of the MHS has been granted by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Minister for the The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Bob Ainsworth): Cabinet Office. The MHS will be merged into the FSA I am pleased to lay before Parliament today the Service on 1 April 2010. Complaints Commissioner’s second annual report on The dissolution of the MHS will not create a risk to the fairness, effectiveness and efficiency of the service public health and animal health and welfare. All existing complaints system. regulatory functions undertaken by MHS operational The independent oversight provided by the staff in approved meat premises will continue to be Commissioner, and the assurance and scrutiny that undertaken by the same staff in the same way post-merger. gives to the effectiveness of the process, helps to ensure Creation of the FSA Operations Group will increase that we can continue to build and maintain the confidence the effectiveness of the FSA as a regulator in the of our personnel in the complaints process. longer-term and reduce risk. Savings of approximately Ministry of Defence and the services have worked £2 million will be generated through the merger. closely with the Commissioner since her first annual report to take practical steps to implement her recommendations for improving the service complaints Doctors’ and Dentists’ Remuneration (Review Body process. I and the service chiefs welcome the fact that Report) this second report reflects that spirit of co-operation, and that it recognises the initiatives we have taken and the progress we have made in a number of the areas that The Secretary of State for Health (Andy Burnham): I were highlighted in that first report. am responding on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the thirty-ninth Report of the Review While progress has been made there is still clearly Body on Doctors’ and Dentists’ Remuneration (DDRB), workforustodo. Cm 7837, which has been laid before Parliament today. I will provide a formal response to the Commissioner I am grateful to the chair and members of the review once I and the services have had time to consider the body for their hard work. report in detail. For salaried doctors and dentists the DDRB has divided its recommended pay awards for 2010-11 into HEALTH three groups: Consultants—0 per cent.; Meat Hygiene Service Registrar grades, specialty doctors and associate specialists (SAS) grades, salaried general medical practitioners (GMPs) The Minister of State, Department of Health (Gillian and salaried dentists—1 per cent.; and Merron): The Board of the Food Standards Agency Foundation house officers (1 and 2) and their equivalents—1.5 per (FSA) has decided to dissolve the executive agency cent. status of the Meat Hygiene Service (MHS) and to bring In addition, the DDRB recommend that a banding its staff and functions into the FSA to form the core of multiplier be introduced for foundation house officer a new FSA Operations Group. 1 posts that only attract basic pay and that this should The MHS is an executive agency of the FSA and is be set at 1.05 of basic salary. responsible for verifying that operators of approved The Government do not accept that there is a compelling abattoirs, cutting plants and game handling establishments case for the recommended award of 1.5 per cent. for in Great Britain fulfil their responsibilities for the foundation house officers and their equivalents and in production of safe meat and the protection of animal line with its evidence believe that all salaried doctors health and welfare. and dentists below consultant level should receive an 17WS Written Ministerial Statements10 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS award of 1 per cent. The remainder of the DDRB’s pay The pay review body also recommended, on affordability recommendations for salaried doctors and dentists have grounds, that NOMS should not proceed with targeted been accepted in full by the Government. investment to support pay reform such as the further For independent contractor general medical practitioners scale compression. However, after careful consideration (GMPs), DDRB have recommended an increase in we have concluded that the planned targeted investment contractual payments to practices of 1.34 per cent. in pay reforms are both affordable within the current designed to result in no increase to GMPs’ average net NOMS budget and necessary for achieving long-term income after allowing for movement in their expenses. efficiency improvements. NOMS will therefore proceed With regard to general dental practitioners (GDPs), the with the measures effective from 1 April 2010. DDRB has recommended a 1.44 per cent. increase in contract values which the DDRB intend to result in no increase in GDPs’ net income after allowing for movement NORTHERN IRELAND in expenses. Prison Service Pay Review Body (Northern Ireland) In making these recommendations the DDRB has indicated that it considers efficiency savings made by GP and dental practices should only be taken into The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Paul account retrospectively, after the scale of these savings Goggins): The sixth report of the Prison Service Pay becomes apparent in data showing trends in earnings Review Body (PSPRB) on the pay of prison governors, and expenses. The Government do not consider this prison officers, prison auxiliaries, night patrol officers, approach sustainable at a time when most areas of the night custody officers, prisoner custody officers and public sector are having to achieve efficiency savings in operational support grades in the Northern Ireland order to sustain jobs and income levels. In view of this, Prison Service has been published today. and in line with its evidence to the pay review body, My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Government have decided to abate the DDRB’s Northern Ireland has accepted the recommendations in recommendations for GMPs and GDPs by applying a full. The basic increase will be implemented with effect prospective efficiency assumption of 1 per cent. of from 1 April 2010. The cost of the award will be met contractors’ operational costs. This will have the effect from within the existing budget allocation for the service. of reducing the proposed uplift in the value of contract Copies of the report have been placed in the Libraries payments to 0.8 per cent. for GP practices and 0.9 per of both Houses. cent. for dental practices.

PRIME MINISTER JUSTICE Review Body on Senior Salaries (32nd Report)

Prison Service Pay Review Body (Ninth Report) The Prime Minister (Mr. Gordon Brown): The 32nd Report of the Review Body on Senior Salaries (SSRB) The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Maria is being published today. This makes recommendations Eagle): The ninth report of the Prison Service Pay about the pay of the senior civil service (SCS), senior Review Body (PSPRB) (Cm 7802) has been laid before military personnel, the judiciary and very senior NHS Parliament today. The report makes recommendations managers. Copies have been laid in the Vote Office and on the pay of governing governors and other operational the Library of the House. I am grateful to the chairman managers, prison officers and related support grades in and members of the Review Body for their work. public sector prisons in England and Wales in 2010. The Government have decided to accept some but Copies of the report are available on the www.ome.uk not all of its recommendations. It is important in the .com/review.cfm?body=2. I am grateful to the chairman present economic climate that senior staff in the public and members of the review body for their hard work in sector show leadership in the exercise of pay restraint. producing these recommendations. Senior Civil Service The recommendations covering the headline award For the SCS, the Government have accepted the include: recommendation of the Review Body that for 2010-11 A 1 per cent. consolidated increase to the maximum point of there should be no increase in base pay or the non- all pay scales for the remit group; consolidated performance-related pot. An additional 0.5 per cent. for senior officers (giving a 1.5 per The Government have not accepted the Review Body’s cent. increase in total) to ensure a pay differential which offers recommendation that the minimum for SCS pay band 1 a greater incentive for prison officers to seek promotion; should be increased to £61,500. A 1 per cent. uplift to the required hours addition (RHA), These tough decisions complement existing measures where payable, to senior managers D and managers E to G; to reduce the cost of the civil service and protect frontline Endorsement of proposals to ensure probationers recruited services, including savings of £500 million over three from 1 April 2009 are eligible for their first increment after no years from reforms to the civil service compensation more than 15 months; scheme; savings of £100 million annually within three No changes to the rate of any of the main allowances (e.g. years from reducing unnecessary civil service bureaucracy specialist, tornado, payment plus); and and the cost of the SCS; and Ian Smith’s new review No change to the rates of local pay. into the scope for further civil service relocations, building I can confirm that the headline awards recommended on the relocation of more than 20,000 posts since the by PSPRB will be accepted in full. 2004 Lyons review. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements10 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

Senior Military Personnel On 10 June, I informed the House that the Department The Government have accepted the Review Body’s for Transport and the Irish Department of Transport recommendations that there should be no increase in had agreed to undertake an independent assessment the senior military pay scales for 2010-11 recommended of aids to navigation around the UK and Ireland. in last year’s report, and that the bottom step of the Subsequently, the Department awarded a contract to senior military 2 Star scale should be removed. Atkins, who has now completed the assessment. Judiciary The report of the assessment makes over The Government have accepted the Review Body’s 50 recommendations, many of which will be demanding recommendation that the salaries for the judiciary should of the three general lighthouse authorities (GLAs), and remain unchanged. the two Governments, or which challenge long-standing assumptions about delivery and charging for the provision Very Senior NHS Managers of aids to navigation. Key recommendations include: For very senior NHS managers, the Government The creation of a GLA joint strategic board to drive efficiencies; have accepted the Review Body’s recommendation that The use of an annual target reduction calculator (RPI—X%) there should be no increase in base pay for those whose for GLA running costs; and current salary is £81,800 or more, and no increase in the The development of a “roadmap” agreed with the Irish non-consolidated pay pot. Government on the financing of the Commissioners of Irish The Government have not accepted the Review Body’s Lights, setting out an incentivised financial model, which specific recommendations that there should be a 2.25 per retains the all-Ireland body while allowing its costs within the cent. increase in base pay for those whose total salary is Republic of Ireland to be covered wholly from Irish sources. less than £80,000, and that there should be an increase The report also contains recommendations concerning in base pay so that the total salary of those currently the management of the general lighthouse fund and the paid between £80,000 and £81,799 rises to £81,800. charging of light dues. Ministers Many of the recommendations can be implemented quickly. Others will prove challenging and we will need The effect of the Government’s response to the SSRB’s to consult widely on some before deciding how to recommendations on SCS pay is that there will be no proceed. Nevertheless I welcome the Atkins report, increase in ministerial pay for 2010-11. All paid Ministers which offers a blueprint for the provision, management will also waive any increase in their pay as an MP to and funding of aids to navigation for many years to which they are entitled. come. The report will shortly be posted on the Department’s Other Review Body reports for 2010-11 website and copies will be placed in the Libraries of the My right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for House. Justice, Health and Defence are making statements Last June, I also announced the first increases in light today on the reports of the Prison Service Pay Body, the dues since 1993. They comprised a twofold set of increases, Doctors and Dentists Review Body and Armed Forces with the changes due to take effect on 1 July 2009 and Pay Review Body in respect of pay for the relevant 1 April 2010, providing payers with more time to prepare workforces for 2010-11. The Government’s response to for the second rise and price their services accordingly. those reports is consistent with the need for senior staff The general lighthouse fund that finances the expenditure in the public sector to show leadership in the exercise of of the GLAs is now, as a result of careful administration pay restraint. and management, together with better than expected Looking ahead, the Government announced in the investment income returns over the last year, in a more 2009 pre-Budget report (Cm 7747) that it would seek a robust position than was previously forecast. We have 1 per cent. cap on basic pay uplifts across the public also worked closely with the GLAs to identify efficiency sector for 2011-12 and 2012-13, generating savings of savings over and above the 5.6 per cent. reductions I £3.4 billion a year by 2012-13. announced last year with further reductions being made I also announced in “Putting the Frontline First: in 2010-11, largely in back-office running costs. The Smarter Government”(Cm 7753) a series of fundamental Atkins report also makes recommendations to deliver reforms to the scrutiny of senior salaries in the public further GLA efficiencies over time. All of these outcomes sector, with new requirements for ministerial approval have reduced anticipated future calls on the general of salaries in excess of £150,000 and bonuses greater lighthouse fund. than £50,000; improved disclosure arrangements above In the light of these factors, and having listened to these levels; and a review of senior pay across the public the views of the GLAs and the Lights Advisory Committee sector led by Bill Cockburn, chair of the SSRB. representing shipping industry light dues payers, I have reviewed the level of light dues needed to maintain the fund at a viable level. As a result, I have concluded that TRANSPORT we should now implement a smaller increase in light dues levels. I am therefore reducing by 2p the increase in light dues to be paid on and after 1 April so that the rate Marine Aids and Light Dues will stand at 41p per net registered tonne from that time. As previously announced, the tonnage cap will increase to 40,000 net registered tonnes, reflecting the increasing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport size of vessels that make up the world fleet. (Paul Clark): I wish to inform the House of the publication I have chosen this course of action to ensure that the of a consultants’ report entitled “Assessment of the general lighthouse fund remains able to finance the provision of marine aids to navigation around the United GLAs and ensure the safety of all mariners, while Kingdom and Ireland”, and of a revision to the planned recognising the difficult economic times that the shipping level of light dues rates from 1 April 2010. industry continues to experience. 21WS Written Ministerial Statements10 MARCH 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS

WOMEN AND EQUALITY to bear and be representative of the wider population. Since 1997, women in Parliament have championed flexible working, the extension of childcare and legislation Government’s response to the Speaker’s Conference to tackle domestic violence, and forced marriage. The Equality Bill currently before Parliament contains a number of specific measures to tackle under- The Minister of State, Government Equalities Office representation, for example by extending the time available (Maria Eagle): Today I am laying before the House to political parties to use all-women shortlists to 2030, “The Government’s Response to the Speaker’s Conference” and increasing the options open to political parties and (Cm 7824), which sets out the work Government have public bodies to tackle under-representation, for example done to increase diversity of representation in political by reserving places on electoral shortlists for those with and public life and responds to 20 of the Speaker’s a protected characteristic. Conference’s 71 recommendations to Government. The Government welcome and accept the Copies of “The Government’s Response to the Speaker’s recommendation that political parties should be required Conference” (Cm 7824) are available in the Vote Office, to publish diversity data in their candidate selections, the Printed Paper Office and also on the Government which is why we tabled an amendment to the Equality Equalities Office website at: www.equalities.gov.uk. Bill to give it legal effect. The Government welcome the landmark report of The Government’s response includes commitments the Speaker’s Conference and the comprehensive and to examine progress on women’s representation following detailed examination of the political and parliamentary the 2010 general election and consider further options if landscape it sets out. sufficient progress is not made; to find time for a debate We will continue to act to increase diversity in parliament. in Government time on the implementation of the Fair representation is not only just, it is necessary for Speaker’s Conference recommendations; and to consider the legitimacy of our democratic institutions. For decisions establishing a democracy diversity fund to support the to be made that meet the needs of all parts of society, work of developing talented individuals from under- the people making them need to bring diverse experiences represented groups.

303W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 304W Written Answers to Child Support Agency: Complaints Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Questions and Pensions how many complaints about the Child Support Agency were made to the independent case examiner in each of the last five years. [320881] Wednesday 10 March 2010 Helen Goodman: The number of complaints relating to the Child Support Agency received and accepted by the independent case examiner (ICE) in each of the last LEADER OF THE HOUSE five years is contained in the following table.

Number of Backbench Business Committee Number of complaints complaints about the about the Child Child Support Dr. Evan Harris: To ask the Leader of the House with Support Agency Agency accepted by reference to the Resolution of the House of 4 March received by ICE ICE 2010, Official Report, column 1099, what steps she is 2005-06 3117 1348 taking to establish a Backbench Business Committee in 2006-07 3951 1743 time for the beginning of the next Parliament and to 2007-08 3800 1644 implement the associated recommendations of the First 2008-09 2964 1111 Report of the Select Committee on Reform of the 1 April 2009 to 2317 851 House of Commons, Session 2008-09. [321444] 31 January 2010

Barbara Keeley: The Government will bring forward The independent case examiner can accept only those a motion shortly. complaints that fall within his jurisdiction, and only after the Child Support Agency has first had the opportunity to respond to them. Complaints addressed prematurely to the independent case examiner are redirected to the agency for resolution. WORK AND PENSIONS Children: Maintenance Carers’ Benefits Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many cases of absent parents resident and Pensions what recent assessment she has made of in (a) Scotland and (b) Dundee East constituency are the level of demand for employment support from currently being managed by the Child Support Agency. carers; and how many carers have been helped into [319755] work as a result of the £38 million funding for employment support for carers referred to in the 2008 National Helen Goodman: The Child Maintenance and Carers Strategy for Carers. [320938] Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Jonathan Shaw: The National Carers Strategy included Commissioner to write to the hon. Member with the a commitment that, by 2011, Jobcentre Plus would information requested and I have seen the response. ensure carers have access to appropriate employment Letter from Stephen Geraghty, dated 10 March 2010: programmes, and fund replacement care for those In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the participating in approved training. Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive To fulfil this commitment, in December 2009 we reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance introduced a new work focused support for carers scheme and Enforcement Commission. and funding for replacement care. You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, how Work focused support for carers provides adviser many cases of absent parents resident in (a) Scotland and (b) support and training opportunities for carers who did Dundee East constituency are currently being managed by the not already have access to employment programmes. Child Support Agency. [319755] We estimate that 4,000 carers a year will take part in Latest figures available show as at December 2009, the number work focused support for carers in addition to those of cases in Scotland is 111,050; of these 2,120 are in the Parliamentary already accessing support through new deal or pathways Constituency of Dundee East. These figures include old scheme to work programmes. cases with a full or interim maintenance assessment as well as current scheme cases with a full maintenance calculation or Carers can have replacement care costs paid if they default maintenance decision. Figures are adjusted to reflect are taking part in training or attending interviews with those cases administered clerically. advisers or employers as part of a return to work action I hope you find this answer helpful. plan. We estimate that 33,000 carers a year will request replacement care. Departmental Contracts In the 12 weeks since work focused support for carers and replacement care funding started, 420 carers have Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State attended a work focused support for carers initial interview. for Work and Pensions what assessment she has made It is too early to report take up of replacement care. of the capacity of prime contractors to (a) monitor 305W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 306W and (b) review the quality of service provided by sub- Jim Knight: No IT projects have been cancelled prior contractors; and whether she has made an assessment to completion by the Department and its agencies in the of the level of knowledge of each prime contractor of last 12 months. (i) Public Service Agreement 16 and (ii) personalisation. [319932] Directgov: Contracts Jim Knight: All DWP welfare to work contracts are procured through open and fair competition in accordance with public procurement policy and EU regulations. Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The criteria are published on the DWP website at the and Pensions which external contractors have been start of any competition, so that all potential bidders given contracts worth over £1 million for work on are aware of the basis on which the tenders will be directgov; and how much has been spent on each contract evaluated. excluding value added tax. [320716] As part of the tender evaluation process, we ask prime contractors to tell us how they will fully meet the Jim Knight: Directgov has not placed any contracts varied needs of all customers, including where appropriate for external contractors worth over £1 million. socially excluded customers such as those covered by PSA 16. In addition, we ask prime contractors to give details of all their sub-contractors in their tenders and Employment and Support Allowance we take into account the performance, skills and experience of the sub-contractors during the tender assessment process. In addition, we consider whether prime contractors Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and sub-contractors have robust performance management and Pensions what the average length of time was systems. between a referral from Jobcentre Plus and the first Post contract award DWP contractors are required appointment with a Pathways to Work provider for to meet all of the quality and delivery standards set out claimants of incapacity benefit or employment and in the contract specification, and are subject to ongoing support allowance in the latest period for which figures monitoring by DWP Contract Managers. In addition to are available. [319975] this, they are subject to independent quality inspection by Ofsted in England, Estyn in Wales and HM Inspectorate Jim Knight [holding answer 2 March 2010]: Information of Education in Scotland. on the length of time between a referral and the date when a provider conducts the first work-focused interview Departmental ICT is not published and could be made available only at disproportionate cost. Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much her Department has Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work spent on information technology in the last three financial and Pensions how many claimants of employment and years; how much was spent on (a) software development support allowance have been sanctioned in the latest and testing and (b) applications including (i) staff period for which information is available; and what the training, (ii) the cost of new hardware and software and monetary value was of those sanctions. [319977] (iii) the cost of launching into the live environment. [313373] Jonathan Shaw [holding answer on 2 March 2010]: The Department does not publish data on the number Jim Knight: The charging structure does not classify of people who have been sanctioned who claim employment the constituent cost elements in the format requested. and support allowance; such data could be provided However application development figures were: only at disproportionate cost. £ million Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2006-07 224 and Pensions (1) how many people were in receipt of 2007-08 258 (a) contributory employment and support allowance, 2008-09 303 (b) income-related employment and support allowance This enabled the development of new applications and (c) all types of employment and support which are being used by DWP staff to improve customer allowance in each of the last six months; [319996] service and streamline processes. The Department has a (2) how many individuals were in receipt of (a) very strong track record in delivering major and complex contributory employment and support allowance and change involving IT. Every project is subject to continuous (b) income-related employment and support allowance rigorous scrutiny to ensure it fits with departmental in each of the last four quarters; [319998] strategy and delivers value for money. (3) how many individuals were in receipt of employment and support allowance in each of the last six months. Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State [319999] for Work and Pensions what information technology projects initiated by her Department and its agencies have been cancelled prior to completion in the last Jonathan Shaw: The requested data are only available 12 months; and what the cost of each such project was quarterly, not monthly. The available information is in to the public purse. [320558] the table. 307W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 308W

Number of individuals in receipt of contributory and income-related Jonathan Shaw: DWP lead the Government’s response employment and support allowance in the last four quarters to some of the biggest issues facing the country—welfare November February May August and pension reform—and are a key player in tackling 1 2008 2009 2009 2009 child poverty1. As the biggest delivery department in Contributory 21,390 69,610 106,150 129,770 the UK, DWP makes a difference to millions of people employment and every day, helping them to lead safer, fairer and more support allowance rewarding lives that are free from poverty. We want to Income-related 22,990 74,970 125,080 163,000 give people more choice and control over their lives and employment and are committed to providing greater choice and personalised support allowance support to everyone who needs it so they have the All types of 53,770 175,810 288,270 374,440 opportunity to get into and remain in work. We believe employment and support allowance that work works. Even in economically challenging 1 Provisional data. times we know that work works for the most vulnerable Notes: and the disadvantaged. 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest ten Support to find work 2. Employment and support allowance replaced incapacity benefit and income support paid on the grounds of incapacity for new Through Jobcentre Plus, we are promoting work as claims from 27 October 2009. the best form of welfare for people of working age. 3. The figures relating to employment support allowance have been Since January 1998, the number of people unemployed thoroughly quality assured to National Statistics standard however in Great Grimsby has increased by 8 per cent. to 4,704, it should be noted that this is a new benefit using a new data source but the number unemployed for more than one year has which may not have reached steady state in terms of operational processing and retrospection. Hence most recent data shown is decreased by 37 per cent. to 745. From August 1997 to provisional. August 2009 the number of lone parents claiming income Source: support in Great Grimsby has decreased by 15 per cent. Department for Work and Pensions Information Directorate: Work to 1,950. and Pensions Longitudinal Study Our new deals have helped lone parents, the young Employment Schemes unemployed, the long-term unemployed, disabled people, the over 50s and partners of unemployed people to Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State move from benefit into work. Since their inception over for Work and Pensions what assessment she has made 2.2 million people in Great Britain have found work of the relative levels of (a) personal service and (b) with the support of the new deal, and 6,820 have been altruistic benefit offered by (i) third sector and small to helped in Great Grimsby. medium-sized providers and (ii) large employment Support for children organisations under the Work Choice programme. We introduced a target to halve child poverty by [320770] 2010-11 on the way to eradicating it by 2020. Poverty is measured using a headline indicator of the proportion Jonathan Shaw: Work Choice is an ambitious and of children in households with an income below 60 per innovative programme and potential delivery organisations, cent. of contemporary household median income before from the public, private and third sectors, have been housing costs. This is in line with international best made fully aware of the clearly defined service requirements. practice. A crucial principle of the programme is the requirement Statistics on the numbers of children living in poverty to fully support the specific needs of individual customers are not available at the constituency level. and provide more opportunity for them to exercise choice and control. All Work Choice providers will Support for older people have to deliver these key requirements. Robust and Since 1997 our strategy has been to target help on the comprehensive quality assurance and continuous poorest pensioners while providing a solid foundation improvement systems are to be implemented and applied of support for all. to ensure that they are met. This year we will be spending over £13 billion more Employment Schemes: Part-time Employment on pensioners than if we had continued with the policies that were in place in 1997. Around half of that money Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work will go to the poorest third of pensioners. and Pensions what specific targets Jobcentre Plus has In 1997 the poorest pensioners, who received income to assist customers into part-time work; and if she will support, lived on £69 a week (£98 in today’s prices). make a statement. [320157] Today pension credit, which was introduced in 2003, means no pensioner needs to live on less than £130 a Jim Knight [holding answer 3 March 2010]: Jobcentre week, £198.45 for couples. As of August 2009 6,670 Plus is committed to helping all its customers into paid pensioners in Great Grimsby are benefiting from pension employment, both full-time and part-time. However, it credit. does not have a target focused specifically on assisting In 2007-08 there were 900,000 fewer pensioners living customers into part-time work. in relative poverty in UK compared to 1998-99 (measured Grimsby as below 60 per cent. of contemporary median household income after housing costs). Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Statistics on the proportion of pensioners living in Work and Pensions if she will set out, with statistical relative poverty are not available at the constituency information related as directly as possible to Great level. But the latest data for the Yorkshire and the Grimsby constituency, the effects of her Department’s Humber Government office region show that the proportion policies on that constituency since 1997. [320183] of pensioners in poverty (measured as below 60 per 309W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 310W cent. of contemporary median household income after advisers and (c) civil servants in each of the last five housing costs) fell from 32 per cent. to 18 per cent. since years. [305657] 19972. Pensioners in the UK also benefit from a range of Jim Knight: The available information on hotel additional support such as the winter fuel payment accommodation is set out in the following table. Other which this winter is worth £250 for households with information is not available in the required format and someone aged between 60 to 79 and £400 for households could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. with someone aged 80 or over. These payments provide vital reassurance to older people that they can afford to Hotel (all Hotel Hotels turn up their heating during cold weather. Prior to staff) (£ (Ministers) (Special winter 1997-98 less than £60 million per year was spent million) (£) advisers) helping pensioners meet their fuel bills—we now spend 2004-05 12.0 n/a n/a around £2.7 billion on winter fuel payments alone. In 2005-06 12.3 n/a n/a winter 2008-09 (the last winter for which information is 2006-07 11.5 n/a n/a available) 16,720 people aged 60 and over benefited 2007-08 11.6 £1,631 n/a from winter fuel payments in Great Grimsby. 2008-09 12.3 £1,875 n/a We have also taken steps to strengthen and protect the private pensions system to ensure people can continue Expenditure by the Department on hotel accommodation to have confidence to save for their future through the needs to be seen in the context of a Department of over establishment of the Pensions Protection Fund, the 100,000 staff operating from over 1,000 office locations financial assistance scheme and a more powerful and across Great Britain. proactive pensions regulator. All official travel within the Department is carried The protection system ensures that, unlike in 1997, out in accordance with the requirements of both the people aren’t left without a pension even in the event Civil Service Management Code that their employer becomes insolvent. http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/documents/doc/ In total 2,338 people in the Yorkshire and Humber CSMC_April08.doc Region are receiving compensation from the Pension and departmental business travel policy, which enables Protection Fund (data not available at constituency 3 staff to stay overnight in hotel accommodation when level) . travelling on detached duty for business purpose. We have also taken forward a radical package of Travel by Ministers and civil servants is undertaken pension reforms in the Pensions Acts of 2007 and 2008 in accordance with the Ministerial Code and the Civil which will deliver a fairer and more generous state Service Management Code respectively and the Cabinet pension and extend the opportunity of workplace pension Office provides the annual list of overseas travel over saving to millions, many for the first time. £500 undertaken by Ministers. The 2008-09 list was The state pension reforms begin to come into effect published on 16 July and can be viewed at: from 2010 and will mean around three quarters of http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/propriety_and_ethics/ women reaching state pension age in 2010 are expected ministers/travel_gifts.aspx to qualify for a full basic state pension compared to half without reform. Jobseeker’s Allowance Support for disabled people and carers Since 2001, we have significantly extended and improved civil rights for disabled people in areas such as employment, Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for education, access to goods and services and transport. Work and Pensions (1) how many people have made a Disabled people in Great Grimsby will have benefited rapid reclaim for their jobseeker’s allowance (a) nationally from these improvements. The Welfare Reform Act and (b) in each London borough in each of the last 2009 contains powers to increase choice and control for 24 months; [318600] disabled adults, including disabled parents who are (2) how many individuals have made (a) one, (b) entitled to state support, enabling them to choose how two, (c) three and (d) four rapid reclaims for jobseeker’s certain state support is used to meet their individual allowance (i) nationally and (ii) in each London borough needs. This will be trailblazed in eight local authority in the last 24 months. [318601] sites from late 2010. Older and less well off carers have gained extra help through the provisions within the Jim Knight: The requested information is not available National Carers Strategy. as the Department does not gather data specifically 1 The Department for Work and Pensions was created in 2001 and relating to the number of reclaims to jobseeker’s allowance. so information relates to the Department and its predecessors. 2 Based on three-year averages and changes are rounded to the nearest percentage point or 100,000 pensioners between 1997-98 New Deal Schemes: Hemsworth to 1999-2000 and 2005-06 to 2007-08. 3 Regional information about assistance payments received by Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work members from the financial assistance scheme could be obtained and Pensions how many women resident in Hemsworth only at disproportionate cost. constituency have participated in the New Deal for (a) Hotels Lone Parents and (b) Partners since 1997; and if she will make a statement. [316620] Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much her Department spent on Helen Goodman: The available information can be hotel accommodation for (a) Ministers, (b) special found in the following table. 311W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 312W

Number of woman participants in the New Deal in Hemsworth year available. Estimates have been presented rounded parliamentary constituency: Time Series to August 2009—Starters to the nearest 100,000 households. (Spells) (a) In 2007-08, winter fuel payments were made to around Lone parents Partners 100,000 households with net income before housing costs of 1997 n/a n/a more than £100,000 per annum. 1998 10 n/a (b) In 2007-08, winter fuel payments were made to a negligible 1999 130 n/a number of households with net income before housing costs of more than £200,000 per annum. 2000 210 n/a 2001 220 n/a The figures are survey based, so there is a degree of 2002 240 n/a sampling error. In 2007-08, winter fuel payments were 2003 200 n/a made to around 9 million households. As such, the 2004 290 10 number of winter fuel payments made to households containing pensioners with net income before housing 2005 270 10 costs of more than £100,000 per annum represents 1 per 2006 200 10 cent. of these payments, while the number paid to those 2007 280 * over £200,000 remains negligible. 2008 430 10 2009 190 * Work Capability Assessment n/a = Not applicable. “*” = Nil or negligible. Notes: Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Some additional disclosure and Pensions (1) how many and what proportion of control has also been applied. medical assessments for (a) employment and support 2. Latest data are to August 2009. allowance and (b) incapacity benefit claimants carried Source: out by Atos Origin in Wales in each of the last five Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate years were conducted by doctors who had completed Pension Credit their formal medical training and were registered with the General Medical Council; [320042] Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for Work (2) how many and what proportion of medical and Pensions how many people transferred from claiming assessments for (a) employment and support allowance jobseeker’s allowance to pension credit in each quarter and (b) incapacity benefit claimants carried out by since April 2008. [320803] Atos Origin in Wales in each of the last five years were conducted by medically trained professionals registered Helen Goodman: The information is not currently with the Nursing and Midwifery Council. [320041] available, and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Jonathan Shaw: All healthcare professionals, consisting of doctors and nurses, employed by Atos Healthcare State Retirement Pensions are registered with the relevant council, namely the General Medical Council or the Nursing and Midwifery Council. Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with reference to the answer of 7 July 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2009, Official Report, column 749W, on state retirement pensions: females, how many women have IB IB IB ESA IB ESA IB been contacted; how many women have received lump Total 36,237 34,941 41,267 167 47,907 23,958 22,949 sums of backdated pension; how much has been paid examinations in backdated pensions to date; and what estimate she has made of the amount which will have been paid out Examinations 36,237 34,941 41,267 148 44,905 18,678 20,428 by the end of the exercise. [319461] by doctor Percentage 100 100 100 89 94 78 89 examinations Angela Eagle [holding answer 1 March 2010]: In the by doctor period up to 18 February 2010, 5,487 women have been Examinations 0 0 0 19 3,002 5,280 2,521 contacted and 1,544 women have received lump sums of by nurse backdated pension, totalling £1,018,782.80. Percentage 0001162211 examinations We are not yet able to give an estimate of the amount by nurse which will have been paid by the end of the exercise. Notes: Figures have been provided by Atos Healthcare. ESA was introduced in 2008. Winter Fuel Payments

Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Work and Pensions how many households with more than (a) £100,000 and (b) £200,000 annual income Buildings: Energy received a winter fuel payment in the most recent year for which figures are available. [320313] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many and Angela Eagle: Information on household income and what proportion of all domestic properties on the Domestic receipt of winter fuel payments are available from the EPC Register have Band (a) A, (b) B, (c) C, (d) D, Family Resources Survey, for which 2007-08 is the latest (e) E, (f) F and (g) G ratings. [316814] 313W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 314W

Mr. Ian Austin: The number and proportion of properties Ms Rosie Winterton: The Government are taking on the Domestic EPC Register by rating band as of action to support retail markets in recognition of the 8 February is: significant economic and social benefits they can create. Since the Committee’s report was published, I have Number of Percentage of been appointed Minister for Markets and CLG has Rating band lodgements lodgements assumed the strategic lead within Government for markets New construction in England. An inter-departmental working group has dwellings also been established to look at the issues affecting A 743 0.24 markets and has agreed a future work programme to B 180,289 57.98 address the Select Committee’s recommendations. C 89,271 28.71 D 25,153 8.09 Multiple Occupation E 4,544 1.46 F 629 0.20 Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for G 147 0.05 Communities and Local Government what the current definition is of a house in multiple occupation (HMO) Existing dwellings for the purposes of (a) assessment of housing stock, (b) licensing and (c) planning permission; what A 530 0.01 change is planned for each of these definitions; and B 192,376 4.96 how many HMOs of each definition in each region (i) C 1,004,178 25.90 there were in each of the last five years and (ii) there are D 1,367,575 35.28 projected to be in (A) 2010-11 and (B) 2011-12. E 821,849 21.20 [321347] F 266,436 6.87 G 80,286 2.07 John Healey: The definition of a House in Multiple Occupation (HMO) for housing purposes is contained Empty Property: Tyne and Wear in section 254 of the Housing Act 2004. An HMO is an entire house or flat which is let to three or more tenants who form two or more households and who share a Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for kitchen, bathroom or toilet. Local authorities are under Communities and Local Government how many empty a statutory duty to license HMOs of three or more property management orders have been (a) applied for storeys housing five or more persons forming two or and (b) issued by (i) Newcastle upon Tyne council, (ii) more households. There are no planned changes to the Gateshead council, (iii) South Tyneside council and (iv) Housing Act 2004 definition of a HMO. North Tyneside council to date. [321118] Currently planning legislation neither defines ‘multiple occupation’ nor HMOs as such but relies on the concept Mr. Ian Austin: In total 29 interim empty dwelling of a ‘single household’ and a ‘family’ in making distinctions management orders have been issued to date. A residential for land use purposes. HMOs are unclassified by the property tribunal authorised the issue of one interim Use Classes Order (UCO) and are therefore sui generis. empty dwelling management order by South Tyneside Therefore as a general rule planning permission will be council in March 2009. Information on how many needed before a dwelling house could undergo a material empty property management orders have been applied change of use to a HMO. The current UCO uses six for is not held centrally. persons as its ‘trigger’ point. My statement of 27 January 2010, Official Report, Housing: Sales column 54WS, announced our intention to introduce a specific definition of a HMO into the UCO. This will be Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the same as that included in section 254 of the Housing Communities and Local Government what proportion Act 2004 with some minor amendments to reflect planning of houses auctioned following default on mortgage concerns. payments have been bought by individuals or companies The following table shows the estimated number of associated with the defaulter in the last 12 months. HMOs in the last five years. The changes I have announced [321046] will not be retrospective. The Department does not hold information on the Mr. Ian Austin: This information is not held by projected numbers of HMOs for 2010-11 and 2011-12. Communities and Local Government. HMOs on 1 April Markets 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 North 8,000 9,000 13,000 12,000 10,000 Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for East North 54,000 54,000 52,000 50,000 50,000 Communities and Local Government what progress has West been made on implementing the proposals in the Yorkshire 26,000 28,000 29,000 29,000 32,000 Government response to the Ninth Report of the and the Communities and Local Government Committee, Session Humber 2008-09, on Market Failure?: Can the traditional markets East 15,000 18,000 23,000 24,000 24,000 survive?, HC 308-I. [320851] Midlands 315W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 316W

Planning Obligations HMOs on 1 April 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for West 19,000 17,000 18,000 17,000 18,000 Communities and Local Government what information Midlands his Department holds on the (a) amount and (b) East of 16,000 17,000 23,000 22,000 33,000 proportion of funding under section 106 of the Town England and Country Planning Act 1990 that has been spent in London 154,000 138,000 126,000 113,000 146,000 (i) Aylesbury, (ii) Brighton, (iii) Darlington, (iv) Derby, South 65,000 64,000 66,000’ 61,000 61,000 (v) Exeter, (vi) Lancaster, (vii) Birmingham, (viii) East Manchester, (ix) Bristol, (x) Cambridge, (xi) the West South 35,000 39,000 41,000 44,000 39,000 Midlands and (xii) England in each of the last five West years. [321419] England 392,000 385,000 390,000 373,000 412,000 Note: Estimated figures for 2005 and 2006 may be of lower quality than Mr. Ian Austin: Information on monies collected by those for subsequent years as from 2007 the definition of what local authorities in this way is not held centrally. However, should be included in the HMO count was changed to specify that the Department for Communities and Local Government local authorities should include licensed and registered HMOs. has produced research reports into the value of planning Source: obligations in England for 2003-04 and 2005-06 based The Housing Strategy Statistical Appendix (HSSA) on a sample of authorities across the country. These reports are available on the Department’s website. New Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for research covering 2007-08 has been commissioned and Communities and Local Government how many planning will be published shortly. applications to change the use of (a) a property to a house in multiple occupation and (b) a house in multiple occupation to a C3 class dwelling have been (i) made Social Rented Housing: Construction and (ii) granted in each region in each of the last five years. [321348] Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Mr. Ian Austin: My Department does not hold this has made of the number of additional affordable homes information. for rent required to be supplied in order to meet the level of demand in (a) Birmingham, (b) the West Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Midlands and (c) England in the next 12 months; and Communities and Local Government when he plans to if he will make a statement. [321421] bring forward the secondary legislation on houses in multiple occupation referred to in the written Mr. Ian Austin: The Secretary of State does not make ministerial statement of 27 January 2009, Official estimates for the provision of affordable housing. However Report, columns 54-6W, on planning. [321350] funding is being made available to enable delivery. In England, total investment of £7.5 billion over this John Healey: The Order amending the Town and year and next, including the Housing Pledge of £1.5 billion, Country Planning (Use Classes) Order 1987, which will will deliver 112,000 affordable homes over the two years create the HMO use class, was made on 8 March 2010. 2009 to 2011. The Order amending the Town and Country Planning In the West Midlands funding of £576.7 million will (General Permitted Development) Order 1995, which deliver 15,706, of which a sum of £116.3 million is will make a change from a HMO to a C3 dwelling house identified for Birmingham to provide 2,906 affordable permitted development, was also made on 8 March and homes over the period 2008-12. will be laid before Parliament by 15 March 2010. Future levels of funding and delivery beyond 2010 Both amendments will come into effect on 6 April will be dependent on the next spending review. 2010. Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many (a) Non-domestic Rates: Valuation local authority and (b) registered social landlord homes were built in (i) Birmingham, (ii) the West Midlands and (iii) England in each of the last five years; and what Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for his latest estimate is of the numbers that will be built in Communities and Local Government with reference to each of the next three years. [321422] the answer of 6 July 2009, Official Report, column 605W, on non-domestic rates, how much was paid in Mr. Ian Austin: Information on the number of local each type of fee by those appealing against their authority and registered social landlord homes build in rateable values in each year from 2004-05 to 2008-09. Birmingham, the West Midlands and England, is shown [321345] on a financial year basis in Live Table 253 on the Communities and Local Government website at the Ian Pearson: I have been asked to reply. following link: There are no fees payable to valuation officers for http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/xls/ making proposals challenging rateable values. Nor are 1474276.xls there hearing fees payable should the proposal become Information on planned housing is available in “Regional an appeal to the valuation tribunal for England. Spatial Strategies and Local Development Frameworks”. 317W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 318W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Treasury (HMT) where HMT will cover 60 per cent. of the additional funds required over £102 million. Therefore Counter-terrorism: International Cooperation the forecast cost to the FCO of the UK’s international subscriptions in 2009-10 is £131 million. Mr. Peter Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent The change in this forecast since my 26 March 2009 discussions he has had with his (a) European, (b) response is due to successful FCO negotiations to limit NATO and (c) US counterparts on further measures the growth of the UK’s contributions, including to the to (i) tackle the funding of terrorist organisations and UN, combined with exchange rate movements over that (ii) apprehend members of terrorist organisations. period. (My response of 26 March 2009 quoted forecasts [321460] made before final UK contributions were agreed with NATO and the UN for calendar year 2010.) The cost Mr. Ivan Lewis: We have frequent discussions with sharing agreement with HMT means that 40 per cent. international partners and organisations on tackling of the saving benefits the FCO’s budget. the funding of terrorist organisations and increasing (ii) 2010-11 our collective ability to take action against their members. The forecast cost for international subscriptions in We are committed to meeting our UN obligations under 2010-11 is £178 million. Based on the agreement with UN Security Council Resolution 1904 on combating HMT, the FCO’s share of this forecast cost is £132 million. the funding of international terrorism, and to a This forecast is likely to change as a result of exchange comprehensive approach using a range of tools to disrupt rate movements and the renegotiation of subscriptions and prosecute terrorist activity, including through asset as they come up for renewal. freezes and travel bans. Peacekeeping Departmental Public Expenditure (i) 2009-10 Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign The assessed peacekeeping costs in 2009-10 are forecast and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to the to be £375 million, an update on the forecast cost of answer of 26 March 2009, Official Report, columns £456 million quoted in my 26 March 2009 response. 598W, on departmental public expenditure, what The change in this forecast is due to savings achieved by estimate he has made of the effects of exchange rate the FCO through negotiations in international forums, movements on the level of funding required to meet the in particular at the UN in June 2009, as well as exchange cost of the Government’s commitments in relation to rate movements since March 2009. We currently estimate (a) international subscriptions and (b) peacekeeping that these exchange rate movements will account for activities in (i) 2009-10 and (ii) 2010-11. [319675] around £9 million of the savings on the previous forecast, subject to final payments which are yet to be made. David Miliband: The information requested is as follows: Under current arrangements, the first £374 million of International Subscriptions assessed peacekeeping costs are met by HMT. Costs We amend our forecasts for the costs of the UK’s above that and, since April 2009, non-assessed peacekeeping international subscriptions throughout the year, both costs as well, are borne by the FCO, the Ministry of to take account of exchange rate movements and as we Defence and the Department for International Development negotiate the budgets for each organisation for the year from the conflict pools and/or from within departmental ahead (a number of international organisations, including expenditure limits. the United Nations (UN) and North Atlantic Treaty (ii) 2010-11 Organisation (NATO), agree budgets for calendar years rather than the UK financial year). As payments are As my response of 26 March 2009 noted in relation made in the local currency of each organisation at to 2009-10 costs, UN peacekeeping assessed costs for different times of the year, and as the effect of exchange 2010-11 will not be agreed by the UN General Assembly rate movements is only one of the factors in our forecasts until June 2010. We are finalising peacekeeping budget for these payments, it is not possible to calculate the arrangements for 2010-11 and will announce these in effect of exchange rate movements alone on the changes due course. to the forecast since my response of 26 March 2009, Official Report, column 598W, without incurring disproportionate cost. Our overall aim is to negotiate Illegal Immigrants and limit any proposed increases to zero real growth in local currency terms for each organisation. Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign I have provided below our latest forecasts for the and Commonwealth Affairs how many staff his overall costs of international subscriptions. These forecasts Department and its agencies have appointed who were remain subject to change in the light of continuing later discovered to be illegal immigrants since 2005. exchange rate movements. [320444] (i) 2009-10 The current forecast cost of the UK’s international Chris Bryant: My Department has no record of having subscriptions in 2009-10 is £175 million, an update on employed an illegal immigrant in the last five years. the forecast cost of £193 million quoted in my response All Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) staff of 26 March 2009. have to be British citizens and all individuals employed As I explained in my response of 26 March 2009, for by the FCO (whether staff or not) are required to international subscriptions the Foreign and Commonwealth satisfy requirements on identity, nationality and immigration Office (FCO) has a cost-sharing agreement with HM status prior to the offer of employment. 319W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 320W

Maldives: Religious Freedom and the initiatives included in Building Britain’s Future. The Scotland Office has incurred no advertising, marketing, Mr. Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign public relations or publicity costs in relation to this. and Commonwealth Affairs what his latest assessment is of the level of religious freedom in the Maldives. [321193] NORTHERN IRELAND Mr. Ivan Lewis: Under the terms of its constitution Gary Whattley Maldives is an Islamic country, requiring all Maldivian citizens to be Muslims. Under Maldivian law non-Muslims Mr. Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern are forbidden from practising their religion publically. Ireland what recent progress has been made by the President Mohamed Nasheed has made public his Police Service of Northern Ireland in its investigation commitment to ensuring that Maldives fulfils its into the death of Gary Whattley in Belfast on 4 November international obligations on human rights. Since he was 2005. [321062] elected in October 2008, there has been welcome progress in areas such as media freedom and freedom of expression. Paul Goggins: That is an operational matter for the But there are still some areas where progress can be chief constable. I have asked him to reply directly to the made, particularly in regards to religious freedom. We hon. Member, and a copy of his letter will be placed in continue to encourage his Government to make further the Library of the House. progress on this as soon as possible. Independent International Commission on Decommissioning: Expenditure OLYMPICS Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Olympic Games 2012: Human Trafficking for Northern Ireland how much the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning has Mr. Steen: To ask the Minister for the Olympics spent under each main category of expenditure in each pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for year since its inception. [321190] Wellingborough of 26 January 2010, Official Report, column 713W, when she plans to provide an update on Paul Goggins: Sponsorship of the Independent the lessons learned from her visit to the Vancouver International Commission on Decommissioning (IICD) 2010 winter Olympics to the All Party Parliamentary is shared by both the British and Irish Governments, with costs shared on an equal basis. The figures in the Group of Trafficking of Women and Children. [321386] following table show the British proportion of such Tessa Jowell [holding answer 9 March 2010]: I refer costs. the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 1 March 2010, Due to the nature of the recording of expenditure, Official Report, column 657. available records on IICD specifically are held only While in Vancouver, I had a number of meetings with from 2002-03. To determine cost beyond that period a range of Government, police and non-governmental would incur disproportionate cost. representatives on the risk of an increase in human trafficking associated with the Olympic games. As previously £ agreed I will write to the parties concerned, including Salary costs Other costs Total the All Party Parliamentary Group on Trafficking of 2009-101 364,862 497 365,359 Women and Children, in due course. 2008-09 414,099 1,225 415,324 2007-08 356,554 1,704 358,258 2006-07 316,720 2,094 318,814 2005-06 367,652 1,737 369,389 SCOTLAND 2004-05 373,417 2,461 375,878 Departmental Marketing 2003-04 275,678 1,051 276,729 2002-03 617,370 559 617,929 1 Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Figures correct as of 5 March 2010. pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Ruislip Northwood of 5 January 2010, Official Report, column 103W, on departmental marketing, how much his ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Department has spent on advertising, marketing, public relations and publicity in relation to the (a) Biofuels: Boilers Real Help Now and (b) Building Britain’s Future themed campaign to date. [320464] Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office helped with the he has made of the likely effect of the Government’s production of a Real Help Now document for Scotland. proposals for maximum (a) particulate and (b) This was published to coincide with the Cabinet meeting nitrogen oxide emissions from biomass boilers on in Glasgow for the first time last April. Ministers have progress towards meeting air quality standards targets also supported a number of meetings and events in in those areas where such targets have not already been Scotland to help promote the Real Help that is available met. [321486] 321W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 322W

Jim Fitzpatrick: The European Commission has accepted Of the original 350,000 tonnes of waste oil, it is that with the exception of London, the UK is on track estimated that up to approximately 250,000 tonnes could to achieve limit values for coarse particulate matter, be potentially suitable for regeneration. Currently there PM10, by 2011 at the latest. In relation to London, the is one waste regeneration plant operating with a capacity Government are working with the Mayor to provide the for processing 50,000 tonnes per annum. In addition it necessary assurances to the Commission as soon as is estimated that 20,000 tonnes of waste oil per annum possible. Action to ensure that the PM10 limit values are are subject to laundering (cleaning). maintained, and progress is made towards fine particle PM25 targets, include ongoing work to assess the impact Stroud of biomass boilers.

For nitrogen dioxide, NO2, a package of measures is Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, currently being developed to address exceedences, taking Food and Rural Affairs if he will set out, with statistical account of changes in the energy sector as we move information related as directly as possible to Stroud towards a low carbon economy. Assessment of the constituency, the effects on that constituency of his impact of these measures on NO2 concentrations is Department’s policies and actions since 2000. [321476] currently on-going. Road transport sources are the main contributor to exceedences of ambient air quality Dan Norris: Due to the broad nature of the question limit values for this pollutant. and the wide range of DEFRA policies implemented in Stroud, it is not possible to provide a detailed answer in Fair Trade Initiative the form requested. Stroud is obliged through statute to comply with Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for central Government legislation. DEFRA’s policy Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what contribution responsibilities are summarised in its departmental strategic his Department has made to Fairtrade Fortnight. objectives (DSOs) that have been agreed with the Treasury: [320952] To promote a society that is adapting to the effects of climate change, through a national programme of action and a contribution Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA did not make any specific to international action. contribution to Fairtrade Fortnight but supports the To promote a healthy, resilient, productive and diverse natural ongoing work of Department for International environment. Development (DFID) which is leading for the Government To promote sustainable, low carbon and resource efficient in this area, and the contribution that this makes to patterns of consumption and production. international sustainable development. DFID officials To promote an economy and a society that are resilient to took part in a number of events and awareness-raising environmental risk. efforts throughout Fairtrade Fortnight, and DFID has To champion sustainable development. committed £12 million to expanding Fairtrade globally. To promote a thriving farming and food sector with an improving Illegal Immigrants net environmental impact. To encourage a sustainable, secure and healthy food supply. Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, To provide socially and economically sustainable rural communities. Food and Rural Affairs how many staff his Department To be a respected department delivering efficient and high and its agencies have appointed who were later discovered quality services and outcomes. to be illegal immigrants since 2005. [320443] DEFRA publishes annual departmental reports which set out progress against its Public Service Agreement Dan Norris: People employed to work in Government targets and DSOs. The 2009 report is available at: Departments and their agencies, either directly or through www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/about/how/deprep/2009- a contractor, are required to satisfy requirements on report.htm identity, nationality and immigration status prior to the Past reports are available online in the National Archives. offer of employment. For information on a specific DEFRA policy in My Department has no record of having employed Stroud, the Government Office for the South West is an illegal immigrant in the last five years. able to provide information on implementation and the benefits to the area. Oils: Waste Disposal Waste Disposal: Fees and Charges Tom Levitt: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what recent Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State estimate he has made of the proportion of waste oils for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference which is regenerated into lubricant oil; [320712] to the answer to the hon. Member for Bromley and (2) what recent assessment his Department has made Chislehurst of 20 July 2009, Official Report, column of capacity for waste oil regeneration. [320736] 745W,on waste disposal: fees and charges, who responded to each of the consultations referred to. [319745] Dan Norris: Approximately 350,000 tonnes of waste oils require treatment in the UK annually. Dan Norris: The list of respondents for the Consultation In 2008, the latest year for which data are available, on the Incentives for Recycling by Households, May 50,000 tonnes of waste oil was regenerated into lubricant 2007, can be found in the summary of responses: oils. 6,500 tonnes was exported to the EU for oil refining http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/waste/strategy/ or other uses of waste oil. incentives/documents/incentives-responses-summary2007.pdf 323W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 324W

The respondents to the informal consultation on the Mr. Hain: The Wales Office has not provided coaching draft guidance in June 2008 were: in any foreign language to either Ministers or staff in Local Authority Recycling Committee the last 12 months. Association of Charity Shops Departmental Marketing Birmingham City Council ESRC BRASS Centre, Cardiff University Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales GMB Union pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Ruislip Campaign for Real Recycling Northwood of 5 January 2010, Official Report, column Chartered Institution of Wastes Management 103W, on departmental marketing, how much his Greater Manchester Waste Disposal Authority Department has spent on advertising, marketing, public Norfolk County Council relations and publicity in relation to the (a) Real Help Waste Watch Now and (b) Building Britain’s Future themed campaign to date. [320463] Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council Barnsley Metropolitan Borough Council Cambridgeshire County Council Mr. Hain: The Wales Office spent £2,151 on the printing of Real Help for Wales Now booklets, but has County Surveyors Society committed no expenditure on Building Britain’s Future Hampshire County Council themed campaigns. Absorbent Hygiene Products Manufacturers Association Bromsgrove Borough Council Departmental Temporary Employment Coventry City Council South Gloucestershire County Council Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales which companies his Department used for providing London Borough of Sutton temporary staff in 2008-09; how many temporary staff Five responses were from private individuals were employed in that year; and what the monetary The list of respondents to the formal consultation on value of contracts with each such company was. statutory Good Recycling Service guidance, September [320291] 2008, can be found in the summary of responses: http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/waste/strategy/ Mr. Hain: In 2008-09 we used Acorn Recruitment incentives/documents/summary-consultation-responses.pdf Agency for one member of staff at a cost of £2,365. Departmental Travel

WALES Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much (a) Ministers and (b) staff of each grade in his Department spent on first class travel Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings in the last 12 months. [320396]

Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Hain: In the last 12 months the following amounts Wales how many (a) disciplinary and (b) capability have been spent on first class travel on official business: procedures have been (i) initiated and (ii) completed in his Department in each of the last five years; how much £ time on average was taken to complete each type of procedure in each such year; how many and what Ministers 12,136 proportion of his Department’s staff were subject to Senior Civil Servants 16,817 each type of procedure in each such year; and how Grade 6 21,633 many and what proportion of each type of procedure Grade 11,818 resulted in the dismissal of the member of staff. [320622] SEO 34,343 H 1,277 Mr. Hain: Only a very small number of staff have EO 783 been subject to disciplinary and capability procedures As the Wales Office operates on split sites both in (including dismissal) and therefore the actual numbers Cardiff and London, Ministers and staff need to travel cannot be provided without compromising staff between offices in the conduct of their duties. confidentiality in what is a small office of 60 people. We do not routinely collect information on the amount of All official travel by Ministers and Civil Servants is time spent on these procedures. undertaken in accordance with the requirements of the Ministerial Code and the Civil Service Management Code. Departmental Languages Economic Situation Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many (a) Ministers and (b) civil servants Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales in his Department received coaching in a foreign language what recent discussions he has had with Ministerial in the last 12 months; what expenditure his Department colleagues and the Welsh Assembly Government on the incurred in providing such coaching; and in what languages economy in Wales; and if he will make a statement. such coaching was provided. [320538] [320832] 325W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 326W

Mr. Hain: I have had regular discussions with both Bristol, (j) Cambridge, (k) the West Midlands and (l) ministerial colleagues and Welsh Assembly Government England to encourage cycling in each of the last five Ministers on the economy in Wales, including through years. [321418] the National Economic Council and the All Wales Economic Summits, and will continue to do so. Mr. Khan: The four main streams of Departmental The action taken both in Westminster and in Wales funding to encourage cycling in England are local transport has helped Wales to exit the recession and move towards plan funding, ″cycle city and town″ funding, links to economic recovery. Action that has ensured that there school funding and cycle training grants. are still 95,000 more people in work in Wales than there Local Transport Plan funding were in 1997. This funding is not ring-fenced and local authorities As we look to the future we remain confident but have discretion to spend their allocations in line with cautious, and will continue to support long-term sustainable their priorities. It is not possible to calculate funding on growth and provide targeted economic support—to cycling by head of population. withdraw this now would put the recovery at risk. Cycle City and Town funding Trade Unions The Department funds 18 cycle city and towns. Funding for the first six cycle demonstration towns between 2005 Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales and 2010-11 is £5 per head annually and for the second how many days staff of his Department spent on trade round of cycle city and towns between 2008 and 2010-11 union activity in the latest year for which figures are at £8 per head annually. These figures relate to the cycle available; and what recent estimate he has made of the town area, which may not always be the same as the annual cost to the public purse of such activity. local authority.In some cases, towns have bid for additional funding. [320669] Links to schools Mr. Hain: In line with the ACAS code of practice The Department funds links to school to encourage “Time off for Trades Union Duties and Activities”, the cycling and walking to schools. As these are linked to trade union representative has spent around 1.5 days on individual schools, it is not meaningful to relate this to trade union activity in the last current financial year to annual funding per head of population. date. The estimated accumulative cost is around £150. Cycle training grants Local authorities apply for grants to train school children in Bikeability level 2. Bikeability level 2 is an TRANSPORT approved cycle training course normally undertaken by children in years five to six (ages 10-11). The grants are Bus Services: Concessions awarded by the number of children the authority proposes to train for the funding year with a maximum grant of Peter Luff: To ask the Minister of State, Department £40 per child, additional to those they propose to train for Transport what steps he is taking to ensure the from their own funding. The Department keeps no continuing availability of discretionary travel arrangements record of local authorities which fund cycle training in rural areas for (a) elderly and (b) disabled persons; from their own funds. and if he will make a statement. [320979] Government Car and Despatch Agency Mr. Khan: Travel concession authorities in England have the freedom to offer discretionary travel concessions Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Department to their older and disabled residents. Local authorities for Transport pursuant to the answer of 22 February are best placed to know about local needs and 2010, Official Report, column 188W,on the Government circumstances. These enhancements are not part of the Car and Despatch Agency, from which departments statutory minimum and must be funded from an authority’s (a) complaints relating to relief drivers and (b) other own resources. complaints were received. [319827] After the planned shift of responsibility for concessionary travel administration from lower tier to upper tier local Paul Clark [holding answer 1 March 2010]: The authorities from April 2011, it will be the responsibility Government Car and Despatch Agency monitors formal of upper tier local authorities to provide discretionary complaints through its ISO 9001 procedures. In the past travel concessions for their older and disabled residents. two years there have been 17 recorded complaints, eight This change will not prevent upper tier authorities from of which refer specifically to the provision of relief maintaining or introducing local-level discretions, for drivers. Records are not retained beyond two years. example where there are differing needs within different Complaints relating to ‘relief drivers’ were received parts of a county boundary (such local schemes could from the following Departments: for example operate at a district level). Cycling Department Number of complaints Communities and Local 1 Lynne Jones: To ask the Minister of State, Department Government for Transport what estimate he has made of the annual Department for Children, 1 amount spent per head of population in (a) Aylesbury, Schools and Families Department for International 2 (b) Brighton, (c) Darlington, (d) Derby, (e) Exeter, Development (f) Lancaster, (g) Birmingham, (h) Manchester, (i) 327W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 328W

The Nimrod MR2 will be replaced by the substantially Department Number of complaints more capable Nimrod MRA4. The MRA4 production Department of Energy and 1 programme remains unchanged, but the aircraft will be Climate Change introduced into service at a slower rate as part of a Home Office 2 package of key adjustments to the Defence programme Ministry of Defence 1 announced on 15 December last year.

‘Other’ complaints were received from the following Angus Robertson: To ask the Minister of State, Departments: Department for Transport what (a) recent meetings he has had with and (b) representations he has received Department Number of complaints from representatives of (I) the Scottish Fishermen’s Cabinet Office 1 Federation, (ii) the shipping industry and (iii) the Department for Innovation and 1 offshore oil and gas industry on the withdrawal of Skills Nimrod MR2 for search and rescue duties. [321300] Department for International 1 Development Paul Clark [holding answer 9 March 2010]: Ihave Department for Work and 1 not had any meetings with, or representations from, any Pensions of these bodies regarding the withdrawal of Nimrod Her Majesty’s Revenue and 1 MR2 for search and rescue duties. Customs Railways: Crime Home Office 2 Ministry of Justice 1 Serious Organised Crime 1 Chris Grayling: To ask the Minister of State, Department Agency for Transport how many people have been convicted of offences related to (a) creating danger by causing anything The Customer Satisfaction survey conducted each to be in the road, or interfering with a vehicle or traffic year invites customers to identify areas for service equipment, (b) causing danger to road users, (c) improvement. The provision of relief drivers is one of endangering railway passengers and (d) trespassing on those areas identified. a railway in each year since 1998. [317760] This information amends the figures given for formal complaints in my answer of 22 February 2010, Official Chris Mole: The available figures are set out in the Report, column 188W,which following subsequent enquiries following table. In interpreting them it should be noted has proved to be incomplete. that: (1) The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences Nuclear Submarines were the principal ones for which they were dealt with. When a defendant is found guilty of two or more offences the principal Angus Robertson: To ask the Minister of State, offence is the one for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Department for Transport what discussions the Marine Where the same penalty is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the one for which the statutory maximum and Coastguard Agency has had with the Ministry of penalty is the highest. Defence on (a) the end of service of Nimrod MR2 and (2) Every effort has been made to ensure that the figures are (b) a replacement fixed wing long-range search and accurate and complete. However, they have been extracted from rescue asset; and if he will make a statement. [321299] large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. Care should therefore be taken to ensure the inevitable Paul Clark [holding answer 9 March 2010]: Senior limitations of data collection processes are taken into account Coastguard Officers were informed by the Ministry of when the figures are used. Defence about the withdrawal of the Nimrod MR2 (3) Staffordshire police were able to provide only sample data prior to the announcement on 15 December, and on the for 2000. These figures have been excluded from the table. alternative defence assets that might be provided to fill (4) No data were available for Cardiff magistrates court for the UK’s long range Search and Rescue requirements. April, July or August 2008.

Offence 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Creating danger by 77 94 88 93 95 93 123 129 93 110 126 causing anything to be in the road Endangering 23 23 23 20 36 32 23 30 28 39 25 passengers on the railway Trespassing on the 1853 1505 1445 2316 2647 2685 3301 3742 5041 5298 2571 railway

Roads: Costs Chris Mole: A recent cost estimate of laying one mile of sound absorbing road surface material ranges between Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister of State, £50,000 and £65,000 per lane, depending on the specific Department for Transport what his most recent proprietary material used. The equivalent cost for laying estimate is of the cost of laying one mile of (a) conventional surface material is approximately £85,000. sound-absorbing and (b) conventional asphalt road Hot Rolled Asphalt is now only used in exceptional surface. [321278] 329W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 330W circumstances. These costs do not allow for the traffic Mr. Khan: The Highways Agency does not purchase management and other preparatory works that may be salt directly. This is the responsibility of its contracted needed prior to surfacing on existing roads, which will service providers, as part of their routine requirement typically increase by two to three times the figures to deliver the winter service to keep the strategic network above. safe and open during severe winter weather. Consequently the Highways Agency does not keep records on where Roads: Snow and Ice its service providers have purchased salt and cannot therefore confirm if any overseas salt has been purchased Robert Key: To ask the Minister of State, Department during the last 12 years. Notwithstanding this, as a for Transport what assessment he has made of the effect result of the national salt shortages experienced over on roads in England of the recent severe weather conditions; the last two winters, the Highways Agency has helped and what discussions his Department has had with (a) facilitate the importation of overseas salt to its service the Highways Agency and (b) local highway authorities providers. In 2008-09 season, the Highways Agency on filling potholes and repairing carriageways. [320756] helped to import approximately 58,000 tonnes of salt Mr. Khan: The maintenance of local roads in England from overseas sources, with a further 127,000 tonnes is a matter for each local highway authority. It is for imported in the 2009-10 winter season. each individual authority to assess which parts of its The sourcing of salt for winter service on local roads network are in need of repair and what standards is a matter for the local authorities concerned. Information should be applied, based upon their local knowledge. on imports is not collected centrally. This Department endorses Well Maintained Highways, Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department the code of practice for highway maintenance published for Transport pursuant to the answer of 22 February by the UK Roads Liaison Group (UKRLG). The code 2010, Official Report, column 208W, on roads: snow of practice is available free on the UKRLG website: and ice, which companies are contracted to deliver the www.ukroadsliaisongroup.org Highways Agency’s routine and winter service; what The code advises local authorities to establish an inspection activities are included within these contracts; and how regime for their highways, and recommends inspection much his Department spent annually on each contract intervals for the various categories of highways. in the last year for which information in available. The Local Government Association have written to [320834] the Department requesting that funding be provided to Mr. Khan: The Highways Agency provides its routine local authorities to repair damage that they consider and winter services through two main contract mechanisms: was caused by the 2009-10 winter. 13 authorities have also formally raised this issue. The Department is 1. Managing Agent Contractors. considering this matter. 2. Design build finance and operate and private finance initiative. The Highways Agency is responsible for the maintenance Managing Agent Contractors of the strategic road network in England. The Agency The Managing Agent Contractors who are currently has a road maintenance programme to ensure that contracted by the Highways Agency to deliver routine carriageway maintenance is carried out at the optimum and winter services are listed as follows: time, to minimise deterioration in the condition of the AccordMP (Joint venture) road and damage caused by severe weather, while delivering Amey value for money. Amey Mouchel (Amey/Mouchel) It is inevitable however that the recent severe weather A-ONE+ (Colas/Halcrow/Costain) will, in a small number of locations, cause a deterioration A-ONE Integrated Highways Services (Halcow and Colas) in the road surface condition. The Highways Agency Atkins Ltd. does not however separately identify or estimate the Balfour Beatty/Mott MacDonald additional maintenance costs directly associated with Carillion/WSP severe weather. The Agency’s experience is that such Enterprisemouchel (Accord/Enterprise and Mouchel) costs are likely to reflect only a relatively minor part of InterRoute (Raynesway/Mott MacDonald/Serco) the overall maintenance expenditure. Safety related defects Generic activities included in these managing agent such as potholes are treated promptly as part of the contractors contracts are: Agency’s maintenance policy. Routine maintenance which includes pothole repairs, street The Department, the Highways Agency and local lighting maintenance, cyclical tasks such as cutting grass verges, authorities together with the Devolved Administrations, gully emptying and litter picking, response and repairs following through the UKRLG, consider the need for research, collisions or spillages, periodic inspections of the condition of and development of guidance and policy on all aspects road surfaces and structures and identifying the need for of road maintenance. The Highways Agency and local planned maintenance; authorities also meet with material suppliers to identify Winter maintenance including the spreading of road salt, snow the need for new materials and the evaluation and clearance and maintenance of the equipment used for those performance of existing pavement materials, including tasks; and those used for repairs. Planned maintenance which includes road surfacing, strengthening and replacement of structures such as tunnels and bridges and Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department minor improvements to the network. for Transport pursuant to the answer of 22 February In 2008-09, the last year for which information is 2010, Official Report, column 208W, on roads: snow available, the Highways Agency spent £327.6 million on and ice, how many tonnes of salt have been bought routine maintenance, £40.6 million on winter maintenance from overseas suppliers in each of the last 12 years. and £493.4 million on planned maintenance through [320822] managing agent contractors contracts. 331W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 332W

The provision of the routine and winter maintenance TREASURY service is tendered as a fixed price “lump sum” activity in the individual contracts. The agency does not disclose Banks: Loans contract specific spend information as this could prejudice the contractors’commercial interest and thereby undermine Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer fair competition. what information (a) Royal Bank of Scotland and (b) Design build finance and operate and private finance Halifax Bank of Scotland provided to his Department initiative contracts on 6 to 7 October 2008 on the extent of their holdings These contracts apply to certain specific routes and of sub-prime assets. [321044] typically incorporate provision of significant improvements to the network together with maintenance over a prolonged Sarah McCarthy-Fry: In October 2008 HM Treasury period (generally 30 years). These companies are listed announced comprehensive measures to ensure the stability as follows: of the financial system including capital investments in the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS), Halifax Bank of Design build finance and operate Scotland (HBOS) and Lloyds TSB totaling £37 billion. Autolink Concessionaires (A19) Ltd. Ahead of this announcement the Tripartite Authorities Connect A30/A35 Ltd. (HM Treasury, the Financial Services Authority and Connect A50 Ltd. the Bank of England) collected relevant information in Connect M1-A1 Ltd. line with their memorandum of understanding. Connect Plus Services (CPS) Detailed information on assets is a matter for each Road Link (A69) Ltd. company’s management to disclose in their audited Road Management Services (Darrington) Ltd. annual report and accounts, in accordance with market disclosure requirements. Road Management Services (Gloucester) Ltd. Road Management Services (Peterborough) Ltd. Civil Servants: Relocation Sheppey Route Ltd. c/o Carillion Highway Maintenance UK Highways M40 Ltd. Mr. Pelling: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Private finance initiative what recent discussions he has had with Ministerial colleagues on the implementation of recommendations Midland Expressway made by Sir Michael Lyons in his review of public Severn River Crossing plc sector relocation. [321241] The routine and winter maintenance costs within these contracts are not included in the 2008-09 spend Mr. Byrne: Ministers held conversations during figures given above. The payment mechanisms on these the initial implementation of Sir Michael Lyons’ contracts are such that it would not be possible for the recommendations resulting in departmental relocation Highways Agency to abstract the routine and winter targets being established. Departments have made good maintenance costs. progress towards these targets and PBR 2009 announced that nearly 21,000 civil service posts had been relocated Rolling Stock out of London and the south east. Treasury Ministers regularly meet ministerial colleagues at other Departments to discuss many topics, Mr. Leech: To ask the Minister of State, Department including the implementation of Sir Michael Lyons’ for Transport what plans he has to provide additional recommendations. diesel trains for rail services in the North of England. [321083] Departmental Paper Chris Mole: The Department for Transport has agreed Martin Horwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer with Northern Rail that 10 diesel vehicles formerly what (a) suppliers and (b) brands of (i) paper and (ii) deployed on the Oldham Loop will be used to lengthen paper products his Department uses; and what his certain train services. Discussions with Northern and Department’s policy is on the procurement of those East Midlands Trains are in progress with a view to materials. [320023] providing further additional diesel vehicles on trains serving northern cities. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Treasury’s policy is to purchase paper and paper products that meet or exceed Thameslink Railway Line the Buy Sustainable—Quick Wins standards. In 2008-09 the Treasury bought copier paper from the following Patrick Hall: To ask the Minister of State, Department suppliers: for Transport what estimate he has made of the overall From Office Depot increase in capacity which will result from implementation Niceday A4 80gsm 80 per cent. recycled; of the Thameslink Programme. [321210] Niceday A3 80gsm 80 per cent. recycled; Evolve A4 80gsm 100 per cent. recycled; and Chris Mole: The Department for Transport’s current Evolve A3 80gsm 100 per cent. recycled. forecasts indicate that, on completion the Thameslink Programme will increase the capacity of train services From Banner Business Supplies into the central London section of the Thameslink Banner envelopes (various sizes); and route by over 30,000 seats in each peak period. Printed letterheads and envelopes. 333W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 334W

Paper for publications was sourced via the print will introduce an immediate increase in the additional supplier. The specification was evolution satin 250gsm pension in line with January’s retail price inflation and 130gsm, 75 per cent. recycled. Paper hygiene products figures; and if he will make a statement. [318632] are supplied by the Treasury’s Facilities Management Contractors (Exchequer Partnership and Mitie Managed Angela Eagle [holding answer 1 March 2010]: Ihave Services). been asked to reply. No. Additional pension is up-rated annually in April Hotels by reference to the September retail prices index. Any changes in prices in the year to September 2010 will be Mr. Maude: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer taken into account in the 2011 up-rating. pursuant to the answer of 29 January 2009, Official Report, column 1145W, on Government departments: Stroud hotels, if he will place in the Library a copy of the summary data on bookings made under the Expotel Mr. Drew: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if facility in respect of his Department in 2009. [318310] he will set out, with statistical information related as directly as possible to Stroud constituency, the effects Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The information requested has on that constituency of his Department’s policies and been deposited in the Library of the House. actions since 2000. [321477] Public Sector Relocation Independent Review Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Neighbourhood Statistics Service provides a wide range of statistical information Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the at parliamentary constituency level, taken from the Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 11 January 2010, 2001 census and other sources. This service is available Official Report, column 772W, on the Public Sector on the National Statistics website at Relocation Independent Review, what the (a) title and (b) scope was of each dataset provided to the Review; http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk./. and if he will place in the Library a copy of each The Government have put in place a broad programme dataset, redacting personally identifiable information. of reform since 1997. Over the decade to 2007, the [319642] economic performance of all parts of the UK has improved considerably. Ian Pearson: The datasets were supplied to the Lyons The global recession has had a negative impact on Inquiry team by the Valuation Office Agency (VOA) economic activity in all parts of the UK. However, the when preparations were being made for the Council Tax economy was starting from a position of strength and is Revaluation 2007 in England, which was postponed in actively supported by policies implemented by the 2005. This Inquiry team was separate from, and Government, including the fiscal stimulus and a significant unconnected to, the Public Sector Relocation Review package of support for those out of work. team, also led by Sir Michael Lyons. The datasets In Stroud people are benefiting from this investment. included the following information for each dwelling: Over the second half of 2009, nearly 430 people moved Property attribute data off of the claimant count each month on average. The Relevant sales claimant count fell for three consecutive months from Current council tax band September and now stands at nearly 5 per cent. below Automated Valuation Model (AVM) estimate of value (where its August level. Long-term unemployment at the beginning a value estimate had been produced by the AVM) of 2010 is nearly 65 per cent. lower than in 2000. A statistical measure of confidence in the AVM estimate Additional analysis about dwellings at the margins of potential Tax Allowances: Charities new bands As was stated in my answer on 11 January 2010, the Mr. Baron: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer datasets contained property attribute and sales data at what recent representations he has received on the individual property level. This is information which, for effect on tax exemptions for charities of EU state aid the protection of individual taxpayers, cannot be released rules. [321239] into the public domain by virtue of s18(1) of the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005 and Ian Pearson: HM Treasury receives representations the Data Protection Act 1988. on a wide range of charity issues. Treasury officials Disclosure of estimates of value and confidence scores continue to have regular discussions with the charity is also prevented by the above legislation. Any redaction sector that cover a wide range of issues including European of personal information would leave just property address law. and council tax band information at the time the data was supplied. Current council tax band information is Taxation: National Lottery available on the VOA’s website. Mr. Greenway: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Social Security Benefits: Uprating how much lottery duty has been paid by the national lottery in each of the last three years. [321055] Bob Spink: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the contribution of the Minister for Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Information about lottery duty Pensions and the Ageing Society of 10 December 2009, revenue collected by HMRC is available at:- Official Report, column 523, on benefits uprating, if he https://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=bullbett 335W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 336W

The following table shows figures for revenue collected DEFENCE from lottery duty in each of the last three years for which final data is available. Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Lottery duty Calendar year £000 Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 2006 605,426 what proportion of interpreters working for his Department 2007 577,876 in Afghanistan (a) have been recruited from the local 2008 628,447 population and (b) are British nationals; and if he will make a statement. [321154]

Valuation Office Agency Bill Rammell: The proportion of interpreters working for the Ministry of Defence in Afghanistan can be split Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the into three distinct groupings. As at 5 March 2010, 91 Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 11 January 2010, per cent. are locally employed civilians, 4 per cent. are Official Report, column 781W, on the Valuation Office, UK nationals (a mix of civilian contracted and UK if he will place in the Library a copy of the minutes of military linguists) and the remaining 5 per cent. are each meeting of the (a) electronic capture of hard civilian contracted third party nationals. The proportions copy records project board and (b) installation of a stated are subject to change. geographical information system project board, redacting the commercially sensitive elements. [319650] Armed Forces: Discharges

Ian Pearson: The minutes, suitably redacted, will be Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence placed in the Library of the House by 31 March 2010. how many service personnel have been discharged from each of the armed forces for alcohol abuse since 2001; VAT and if he will make a statement. [320771]

Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Chancellor of the Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Exchequer what assessment HM Revenue and Customs how many service personnel have been administratively has made of the merits of making submission of value discharged from each of the armed forces for alcohol added tax returns online voluntary instead of abuse in each year since 2000. [321284] compulsory from April 2010. [321093] Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 5 March 2010]: Mr. Timms: Lord Carter of Coles’ Review of HMRC Between 1 January 2001 and 31 December 2008 there Online Services recommended the universal electronic were 28 Army personnel and 15 RAF personnel medically delivery of business tax returns; available at: discharged from service with a principal condition of http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2006/carter-review.pdf ‘mental and behavioural disorder due to the use of The Government accepted Lord Carter’s recommendations. alcohol’. There were no naval service personnel medically discharged with this principal condition during this Filing value added tax returns online from April 2010 period. Statistical data in respect of medical discharges is compulsory for those businesses with a turnover for 2009 are currently being compiled. above £100,000 or newly registering businesses. Businesses already registered for VAT as at 1 April 2010 with a With regard to administrative discharge, this information turnover of less than £100,000 (excluding VAT) may file could only be provided at disproportionate cost. their VAT return on paper or online. All three services run robust programmes designed to Compulsory online filing of business tax returns will raise awareness and promote the message of sensible save businesses time and money, and allow HM Revenue drinking. These programmes address all serving personnel; and Customs (HMRC) to deliver better customer service there are also additional measures in place to assist alongside efficiency savings. commanding officers in countering the potential danger to their people. The sale of alcohol and individual HMRC has consulted widely in preparation of moving consumption limits are regulated particularly, but not the filing of business tax returns online, including a only, when personnel are serving operationally. These three month public consultation on the equality impact controls are supported by disciplinary measures where assessment; available at: necessary. Individuals identified as being at risk receive http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/ counselling and welfare support. This can include channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=page attendance on preventative early intervention programmes Library_ConsultationDocuments&propertvType=document& designed to alert them to the harm that alcohol can columns=1&id=HMCE_PROD1_028731 cause to themselves and others. More serious cases are An impact assessment was published in March 2009, treated through specialist medical and psychological available at: treatment and rehabilitation, including where appropriate http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ria/carter-ia-final1.pdf as inpatients. A summary of responses to the consultation was published in November 2009, and is available at: Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/ Defence how many people were discharged from each channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel= of the armed forces on grounds of mental illness under pageLibrary_ConsultationDocuments&propertyType= each international classification of diseases code in document&columns=1&id=HMCE_PROD1_029929 each year since 2001. [320774] 337W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 338W

Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 5 March 2010]: The Table 2: Army personnel medically discharged with a principal condition of a following tables provide information on how many people mental and behavioural disorder, 2001-08 were discharged from the each of the armed forces on All 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 grounds of mental illness under each international Neurotic 418 53 54 40 54 53 52 57 55 classification of diseases code: Disorders Table 1: Naval Service personnel medically discharged with a principal condition Of which: of a mental and behavioural disorder, 2001-08 PTSD 113 7 11 6 11 14 20 19 25 All 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Of which:

All 295 30 38 42 29 46 42 39 29 Adjustment 101 19 15 15 14 12 7 10 9 Disorders Mood 118 14 19 13 13 16 19 14 10 Disorders Organic, 160******5 Of which: including symptomatic, Depressive 95 10 13 12 8 15 17 13 7 mental Disorder disorders Schizophrenia, 69 12 10 11 6 5 14 * 7 Neurotic 126 11 13 20 9 20 20 21 12 schizotypal Disorders and delusional Of which: disorders PTSD 38 * * 6 * 6 5 8 5 Behavioural 17*0*****5 Of which: syndromes associated Adjustment 26*****65*with disorders physiological disturbances and Organic, 12*0***00*physical including factors symptomatic, Disorders 3386****** mental of adult disorders personality Schizophrenia, 14*****00*and schizotypal behaviour and delusional Disorders *0000000* disorders of psychological Behavioural 16*5*0****development syndromes associated Behavioural *000*0**7 with and physiological emotional disturbances disorders and with onset physical usually factors occurring in Disorders *00*00**0childhood of adult and personality adolescence and behaviour Table 3: RAF personnel medically discharged with a principal condition of a Disorders *00000*00 mental and behavioural disorder, 2001-08 of All 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 psychological development All 332 20 13 28 65 38 78 49 41 Table 2: Army personnel medically discharged with a principal condition of a mental and behavioural disorder, 2001-08 Psychoactive 1500**056* All 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 substance use All 904 103 112 90 121 119 111 111 137 Of which: disorders 1500**056* Psychoactive 2956**5**7due to substance alcohol use Of which: Mood 13211*131914311427 Disorders 2856*****7Disorders due to Of which: alcohol Depressive 110 9 * 10 13 13 24 14 24 Disorder Mood 307 23 35 33 50 47 32 41 46 Disorders Neurotic 143 9 9 12 32 20 30 21 10 Of which: Disorders Depressive 238 16 22 27 40 35 27 33 38 Of which: Disorder PTSD 13 0 * * * * * * * Of which: 339W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 340W

Table 3: RAF personnel medically discharged with a principal condition of a Naval service compulsory drug testing results for the period 1 January 2001-31 mental and behavioural disorder, 2001-08 December 2009 All 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Drug types2 Number Adjustment 84 5 * * 20 14 24 9 6 Number of disorders of tests positive conducted results Cocaine Ecstasy Cannabis Others1

Organic, *000*0*002009 11,563 32 15 1 20 2 including symptomatic, Army compulsory drug testing results for the period 1 January 2001-31 mental December 2009 disorders Drug types2 Schizophrenia, 1400****5* schizotypal Number and Number of delusional of tests positive 3 disorders conducted results Cocaine Ecstasy Cannabis Others

Behavioural 100*******2001 97,282 637 76 201 297 30 syndromes associated 2002 89,003 514 106 128 239 41 with 2003 93,129 518 136 103 244 35 physiological 2004 92,297 634 206 126 275 27 disturbances and 2005 94,140 796 364 122 281 29 physical 2006 105,008 770 423 95 221 31 factors 2007 75,842 678 419 72 160 27 Disorders 140007*5*0 2008 89,839 651 427 32 171 21 of adult personality 2009 102,949 451 237 6 203 38 and behaviour Royal Air Force compulsory drug testing results for the period 1 January 2001-31 December 2009 Behavioural *000*0*00 and Drug types2 emotional Number disorders Number of with onset of tests positive usually conducted results Cocaine Ecstasy Cannabis Others4 occurring in 2001 13,401 18 3 4 11 0 childhood and 2002 11,096 10 1 2 7 0 adolescence 2003 13,570 20 0 4 16 0 Note: 2004 11,832 24 10 1 13 0 Numbers smaller than five are represented as “*” in line with the Office for 2005 12,808 21 6 6 8 1 National Statistics guidelines. Where there is only one number smaller than five in any row or column the next smallest number has also been replaced. 2006 12,884 18 9 3 4 2 2007 12,119 15 11 0 3 1 Armed Forces: Drugs 2008 12,303 27 10 1 13 3 2009 12,399 12 5 0 7 0 1 Other drugs detected—Ketamine, Steroids, Benzodiazepines and Opiates. Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for 2 Where a sample tests positive for more than one drug, the more prevalent drug Defence how many compulsory drug tests for each is counted. substance were failed in each of the armed services 3 Other drugs detected—Heroine, Ketamine, Steroids, Benzodiazepines. 4 Other drugs detected—Benzodiazepines, Amphetamine. since 2001. [320772]

Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 5 March 2010]: The Armed Forces: Food misuse of drugs is incompatible with the demands of service life and can pose a significant threat to operational Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence effectiveness. how much his Department spent on British Armed The following table provides information on the numbers Forces Worldwide Food Supply in each year since 2001. of compulsory drug tests and positive results by drug [320752] type. Naval service compulsory drug testing results for the period 1 January 2001-31 Mr. Quentin Davies: Catering, retail and leisure (CRL) December 2009 contracts (incorporating pay as you dine arrangements) Drug types2 are being introduced across the UK, to cater for service Number personnel in UK units. Such catering contracts now Number of of tests positive account for around 60 per cent. of food consumption conducted results Cocaine Ecstasy Cannabis Others1 by service personnel. Food procured under such contracts is the responsibility of the supplier. Information on the 2001 12,889 50 7 15 27 1 costs of all food procured within these contracts is 2002 12,900 42 8 6 26 2 not held centrally and could be provided only at 2003 13,803 56 22 12 20 2 disproportionate cost. 2004 12,262 48 20 7 16 5 2005 12,705 47 26 8 11 2 For UK armed forces personnel “in barracks”, when 2006 13,552 57 35 9 11 2 personnel are not being fed under CRL contracts, and 2007 10,762 39 22 2 12 3 those serving on operations and overseas exercises, there 2008 12,935 67 50 1 13 3 is a single food supply contract for which the following information is available: 341W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 342W

accordance with the search and rescue criteria specified FY Spend (£ million) in the International Aeronautical and Maritime Search 2001-02 113 and Rescue Manual. 2002-03 114 Hercules CI30 aircraft is fitted with radar which can 2003-04 139 be used in a search mode to locate vessels in the water. It 2004-05 128 can be flown by pilots using night vision goggles to 2005-06 139 assist with searches. 2006-07 135 The CI30 aircraft is able to deploy the life-rafts and 2007-08 145 containers carried by Nimrod MR2 aircraft for the 2008-09 176 long-range SAR role. Within the containers are a variety of items that could support the survivor in the four These figures represent the total of value of commercially priorities of survival: protection, location, water and supplied food including the cost of food, administration food. The items include headover scarves, location aids and transport. (flares and distress signals), water and emergency rations. The Department has also procured operational ration packs over the same period for which the following Armoured Fighting Vehicles information is available:

FY Spend (£ million) Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many armoured vehicles of each type in each 2001-02 14.6 armed service were (a) in service and (b) available for 2002-03 16.6 operations on the latest date for which figures are 2003-04 26.7 available. [319487] 2004-05 23.7 2005-06 15.6 Mr. Quentin Davies: I am withholding information 2006-07 15.3 on the numbers of vehicles available as its disclosure 2007-08 18.1 would, or would be likely to prejudice the capability, 2008-09 25.4 effectiveness or security of the armed forces. The number of armoured vehicles of each type in Armed Forces: Parachuting service is shown in the following table:

Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Vehicle Total number in service Defence when his Department plans to award the Main AS90 116 Stores Parachuting contract. [320761] Challenger 2 345 CRARRV 81 Mr. Quentin Davies: We do not recognise this contract CVR(T) 1,200 description. However, we are currently evaluating tenders Fuchs 11 received for the award of a medium weight air drop FV430 (Mk 2 and Bulldog) 1,487 parachute delivery system development contract. It is Saxon 147 too early to state when a production contract may be Titan 33 awarded. Trojan 33 Warrior 785 Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Mastiff 256 Defence whether he has had recent discussions with his Panther 355 US counterpart on the development of a parachute Ridgback 139 delivery system. [320762] Snatch (all variants) 577 Vector 184 Mr. Quentin Davies: The Secretary of State for Defence Viking 126 has not had any recent discussions with his US counterpart Wolfhound 8 on the development of a parachute delivery system. However, at the working level, information is frequently Husky 86 shared with US counterparts. Departmental Interpreters Armed Forces: Rescue Services Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for how much funding is available for service personnel Defence what assessment has been made of the language training in (a) Pashto and (b) Dari in 2009-10. capability of search and rescue C-130 Hercules aircraft [321155] to (a) locate casualties in darkness and poor weather conditions and (b) deploy life rafts and other support Bill Rammell: The majority of training for service items. [321323] personnel language training in Pashto and Dari is undertaken by the Defence School of Languages. In Bill Rammell: Hercules CI30 aircraft are capable of 2009-10 the funding available for Pashto language training covering the entirety of the UK’s search and rescue area is £1,888,157, the funding available for Dari language of responsibility and have the capability to operate in training is £663,407, totalling £2,551,564. 343W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 344W

Departmental Pensions resettlement provision they may ordinarily have received. However, they all receive a mandatory resettlement Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for brief and a one-to-one resettlement interview within Defence (1) what his Department’s current pension their unit before they discharge. These cover advice on liabilities are; and what projections have been made for accessing reemployment services such as Jobcentre Plus, the next 10 years; [321181] advice on housing, the assistance available from ex-service (2) what the estimated pension deficit of his welfare organisations and information about preserved Department is based on (a) estimated liabilities and pensions and compensation rights. If, as part of this (b) budgeted allocations. [321182] process, an individual is deemed to be vulnerable to social exclusion then some specialist support is also Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 8 March 2010]: I provided by service resettlement advisors. refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Minister for International Defence and Security (Baroness Ex-servicemen: Identity Cards Taylor) to the noble Lord, Lord Moonie in the other place on 9 February 2009, Official Report, House of Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Lords, column WA120. This provides information on when the first veteran’s identity cards will be issued. the Department’s historic, current and projected liabilities [321388] for pension contributions in respect of current military and civilian personnel. Mr. Kevan Jones: The Ministry of Defence is in The armed forces pension scheme is an unfunded discussion with the Identity and Passport Service about occupational pension scheme. The estimate of the amount the possible introduction of a veteran’s variant of the payable for this scheme, as at 31 March 2009, was National ID Card, which would both guarantee identity £91 billion. The methodology used to produce this and previous service in HM armed forces. Timescales actuarial assessment can be found in the armed forces for any subsequent roll-out have yet to be finalised. pension scheme resource accounts for financial year 2008-09. This estimate of the total amount that will be Military Aircraft: Helicopters payable, from Crown resources, over the next 70 to 80 years in respect of pension benefits already earned Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence by some one million current and former service personnel. what percentage of pilots of (a) Apache, (b) Chinook In practice the pension payments for any given year are and (c) Merlin helicopters were in breach of their made up of the current year contributions into the harmony guidelines on the latest date for which figures scheme from the Defence budget, supplemented by HM are available. [320006] Treasury funding through the parliamentary estimates process. Bill Rammell [holding answer 4 March 2010]: Apache, Liability for the war pension scheme is not estimated, Chinook and Merlin Mk3 are managed by the Joint as it is a benefit payment and not an occupational Helicopter Command (JHC). JHC operational harmony pension scheme. guidelines are for crews to serve four periods at home It is not possible to provide the liability for the for every one in theatre. The Merlin Mk1 is operated by principal service pension scheme for the Department, the Royal Navy (RN), whose harmony guidelines state as the information is only produced across the whole that no individual should exceed 660 days separated civil service and not broken out by employer. service over a rolling three year period. No Merlin Mk1, Mk3 or Chinook pilots are breaching Ex-servicemen: Health Services harmony guidelines. However, 33 per cent. of pilots within the Apache force are not meeting harmony guidelines. Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence This is a reflection of the rapid and successful introduction what procedures are in place to assist the (a) of the Apache into operational service, some three rehabilitation and (b) re-integration into society of years in advance of the originally anticipated timescale. soldiers who are dismissed from the Army due to use of Apache pilot harmony is improving constantly as more illegal substances. [321387] pilots are trained and become available for deployment.

Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 9 March 2010]: Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association Drugs misuse is contrary to the service ethos, prejudicial to operational effectiveness and is not tolerated in the Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Army or indeed any of HM Forces. Where an individual Defence how much funding his Department has has knowingly or recklessly consumed illegal drugs this provided for the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families will, other than in the most exceptional circumstance, Association in each of the last five years. [321091] result in an automatic discharge. This message is made extremely clear during initial training and is continuously Mr. Kevan Jones: This information is not held centrally. reinforced throughout a soldier’s career. The Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association We do not provide specific drug rehabilitation services, Forces Help is a registered charity and provides a variety but when an individual appears to be a regular drug of services that are available to current serving personnel, misuser, they are referred to a medical officer who will their families and veterans. They receive funding from a consider the need for treatment of any acute medical number of areas including contracted services arranged problems before discharge. and paid for at a local level. In 2009, they also received Service personnel who are discharged compulsorily £50,000 for a specific project from the Veterans Challenge for drug misuse are not eligible or entitled to any of the Fund, which is run by the MOD. 345W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 346W

To determine how much funding has been provided Michael Jabez Foster: Neither The Equality and Human in the past five years would require a manual search of Rights Commission nor the Government Equalities records in many different locations that would incur a Office spent any money on advertising, marketing, public disproportionate cost. relations or publicity in relation to Real Help Now and Building Britain’s Future themed campaigns. Territorial Army Departmental Official Hospitality David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) pursuant to the answer of 23 February Mr. Weir: To ask the Minister for Women and Equality 2010, Official Report, column 413W, on Territorial how many receptions she has hosted for representatives Army, what phase 1 training is scheduled to be run at of print and broadcast media since 3 October 2008; the Regional Training Centre in Ballykinler, County how much each reception cost in total; and how many Down in 2010-11; [321307] people attended each event. [320565] (2) pursuant to the answer of 23 February 2010, Official Report, column 413W, on the Territorial Army, Michael Jabez Foster: No receptions have been hosted when the phase 1 training will be restarted. [321308] for representatives of print and broadcast media since 3 October 2008. Bill Rammell: Phase 1 training will recommence at the Regional Training Centre, Ballykinler in April 2010. Departmental Theft Three phase 1 courses are currently scheduled to be held at the Regional Training Centre, Ballykinler during Mr. Watson: To ask the Minister for Women and the 2010-11 training year. Two will be run over a series Equality how many thefts from the Government Equalities of weekends from April to June 2010 and from January Office have been recorded in the last two years. [318993] to March 2011. The third will take the form of a consolidated course to be held between July and August Michael Jabez Foster: There have been no recorded 2010. All Regular and Territorial Army training thefts from the Government Equalities Office in the last programmes are subject to alteration in light of changing two years. operational priorities.

David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) pursuant to the answer of 23 February INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT 2010, Official Report, column 413W, on the Territorial Army, what the outcome was of the investigation into Afghanistan: Copper the reasons for the course being cancelled; [321309] (2) pursuant to the answer of 23 February 2010, Official Report, column 413W, on the Territorial Army, Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for what steps he plans to take to ensure that local International Development what assistance his Department decisions may not in future be taken contrary to a has provided to the Afghan Government to develop copper mining in Afghanistan in the last five years. directive issued by the Government. [321310] [320980] Bill Rammell: A phase 1 training course planned to Mr. Michael Foster: Between 2004 and 2008, the take place at Ballykinler Regional Training Centre in Department for International Development (DFID) January 2010 was cancelled as a result of a local decision. spent £4 million to map mineral deposits in a geological This was contrary to the Government’s direction. As survey of Afghanistan. This helped identify the growth investigations into the reasons for the cancellation of potential of the mining sector, including copper mining, this training are ongoing it would be inappropriate for and restructure the Afghanistan Geological Survey. me to comment and risk prejudicing the outcome. However, monthly reviews and checks are being conducted to DFID has recently agreed to help the Ministry of ensure that training continues in accordance with Mines undertake an ambitious reform programme that Government direction. will improve its management of the mining sector, including copper mining. DFID is also helping the Afghan Ministry of Finance implement the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative WOMEN AND EQUALITY (EITI). In February 2010 the EITI board accepted Afghanistan as a candidate country. Departmental Marketing Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Mr. Syms: To ask the Minister for Women and Equality pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Ruislip Northwood of 5 January 2010, Official for International Development how many full-time Report, column 103W, on departmental marketing, equivalent staff of each grade are employed by his how much (a) the Government Equalities Office and Department to assist special advisers. [321140] (b) the Equality and Human Rights Commission have spent on advertising, marketing, public relations and Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International publicity to the (i) Real Help Now and (ii) Building Development (DFID) special advisers are supported by Britain’s Future themed campaign to date. [320491] one executive officer (B2) staff member. 347W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 348W

Developing Countries: Contraception through, for example; increasing access to HIV testing and counselling; prevention of mother-child transmission Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for (PMTCT); and other preventative measures, such as International Development what his Department’s plans distribution of condom and education materials. are for future funding of programmes for provision of GFATM is also working with international partners female condoms; and if he will take steps to encourage to ensure support provided to strengthen health systems others to provide funding for such programmes. [320995] in developing countries is effective and improves health outcomes in those countries. Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International The Global Fund is currently preparing an analysis Development’s (DFID) is already providing funding for of its activities and their contribution to the millennium the provision of female condoms. DFID is providing a development goals. The Department for International £100 million grant to the United Nations Population Development will consider this assessment and discuss Fund’s Global programme for reproductive health with GFATM how its work can be strengthened. commodity security over the period 2007 to 2012. We have also committed £42.5 million to the International Planned Parenthood Federation over the period 2008 to 2015 to help provide sexual and reproductive health ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE information, services and supplies, including female condoms. Biofuels

Developing Countries: Debts Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (1) what guidance his Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Department has issued in respect of the sustainability State for International Development what recent discussions of biomass and biofuels used for electricity generation; he has had with his counterparts from other G20 countries [321252] on the purchasing of the debt of developing countries (2) what steps his Department plans to take to ensure by investment funds and subsequent use of that debt; the sustainability of biomass and biofuels used for and if he will make a statement. [321048] electricity generation. [321251]

Mr. Thomas: I work closely with Ministers from G20 Mr. Kidney: Since April 2009, the Renewables Obligation countries on a range of development issues. The has required electricity generators over 50 kilowatts to Government do not support the activities of investment report annually to Ofgem on the biomass they are funds who seek full repayment from heavily indebted using, including the available information on its country poor countries on debt they have bought. Legislation of origin, details of any environmental standard met has recently been introduced to Parliament by my hon. and land use change since 30 November 2005. Guidance Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew on the sustainability reporting requirement is available Gwynne) to address this problem. The Government are as part of the ‘Renewables Obligation: Fuel measurement supporting this legislation which will complement the and sampling guidance’ from the Ofgem website. actions already taken. The Renewable Energy Directive, published in April Global Fund to Fight AIDS Tuberculosis and Malaria 2009, includes sustainability criteria that bioliquids used for heat and electricity generation must meet in order to Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for receive financial support and to count towards the International Development what discussions his Directive’s renewable energy targets. These criteria include: Department has had with representatives of the Global a minimum greenhouse gas savings threshold of 35 per Fund to fight AIDS, TB and Malaria on proposals to cent., rising to 50 per cent. in 2017, and 60 per cent. in expand its remit; and if he will make a statement. 2018 for new installations starting production from [320993] 2017; and controls over land use change to protect land important on biodiversity or carbon grounds such as Mr. Thomas: I discussed this with Michel Kazatchkine, primary forest, wetlands and peatlands. executive director of the Global Fund to fight AIDS, On 25 February 2010, the European Commission TB and Malaria (GFATM), in January. This matter will published its recommendations on sustainability also be considered at the Global Fund replenishment requirements for the use of solid and gaseous biomass event in March, during discussions with GFATM on sources for heat and electricity generation. In the light how their work can be strengthened. of this, DECC will make an announcement later this month, setting out what actions the Government can Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for now take to introduce sustainability standards for biomass International Development what his Department’s in the UK. policy is on proposals to extend the responsibilities of the Global Fund to fight AIDS, TB and Malaria to Climate Change: International Co-operation include (a) maternal health, (b) sexual and reproductive health and rights and (c) health overall; Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for and if he will make a statement. [320994] Energy and Climate Change how the £480 million fund to help fight climate change by tackling deforestation Mr. Thomas: The Global Fund to fight AIDS, TB between 2010 and 2012 announced at the Copenhagen and Malaria (GFATM) is already having an impact on Climate Change Summit will be allocated; and whether maternal mortality and sexual and reproductive health this funding is new money. [319993] 349W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 350W

Mr. Thomas: I have been asked to reply. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Blood The UK Government have committed £300 million to tackle deforestation between 2010 and 2012. Part of Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Health this commitment has already been allocated, for example for what reasons people with myalgic encephalomyelitis £10 million to the Forest Carbon Partnership Facility may not donate blood. [321320] and £88 million to the Forest Investment Programme. We are currently developing plans for the balance. The Ann Keen: People with myalgic encephalomyelitis UK’s aid programme is growing and this commitment (ME), also known as chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), will be financed from this growth. are not able to donate blood until they have fully recovered. The reasons for this are: first, blood donors Nuclear Power: Research need to be in good health, and people with ME/CFS often experience a range of symptoms which could be made worse by donating blood; and second, as the Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy causes of ME/CFS are not currently fully understood, and Climate Change what research his Department has people with the condition are deferred from donating undertaken into the capacity factor of nuclear fission blood as a precautionary measure to protect the safety plants; and if he will make a statement. [321338] of the blood supply for patients. Mr. Kidney: Following analysis the capacity factor, Dental Services also called load factor, is presented in the Government’s 2007 consultation1 on nuclear power. For new nuclear reactors the load factor is estimated to be 80 per cent. Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health rising to 85 per cent. after five years operation. Vendors pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Eddisbury are quoted as expecting 90 per cent. and over. of 25 February 2010, Official Report, column 744W, on Most recent figures show that in 2008, currently departmental statistics, if he will place in the Library a operating UK nuclear power stations had a capacity copy of the most recent NHS dental services vital signs factor of 49.4 per cent. report. [320789] 1 BERR. “The Future of Nuclear Power The role of nuclear Ann Keen: The information requested has been placed power in a low carbon economy. Consultation document”, pp. 68. May 2007. in the Library. http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file39197.pdf Departmental ICT

Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State HEALTH for Health what information technology projects initiated by (a) his Department and (b) its agencies were cancelled prior to completion in the last 12 months; and what the Cancer: Nurses cost of each such project was to the public purse. [320425] Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 25 February 2010, Official Phil Hope: The Department and its Executive agency, Report, column 755W, on cancer: nurses, which the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency programmes will have been implemented fully by have not cancelled any information technology projects 2011-12; which funded development activities are now prior to completion in the last 12 months. reaching a planned conclusion; and how much funding will be released from each programme or activity. Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements [320785] Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Ann Keen: The £20 million for one to one cancer Health for what reasons no response has yet been sent nurses has been found from funding released from to (a) the letter from the Department of Health and programmes launched by the next stage review (NSR), Social Security of the Isle of Man Government of which will either have been implemented fully by 2011-12, 7 September 2009 on the negotiation of separate bilateral or from funded development activities which are now health agreements between the Isle of Man and Scotland, reaching a planned conclusion. Wales and Northern Ireland and (b) the requests for a Looking across the whole of the NSR we are confident response sent on 15 October and 4 November 2009 and that these savings can be released in 2011-12 where subsequently; when he plans to make a substantive development work is concluding or programmes will be response to the letter; if he will place in the Library a fully implemented such as the development programmes copy of his eventual response; and if he will make a for transforming community service and quality accounts. statement. [321495] The funding released from the conclusion and/or implementation of these programmes will ensure that Gillian Merron: The development of any agreement we are able to fund this key initiative to improve the between the Isle of Man Government and the devolved quality of cancer services which is very much aligned government’s would at this stage be a matter for their with the vision set out in High Quality Care for All and respective governments. The Department made the Isle the quality and productivity challenge being undertaken of Man Government aware of that position on 9 March by the national health service. 2010. 351W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 352W

Hearing Impaired: Health Services Ann Keen: The Secretary of State for Health has not had a discussion with the Secretary of State for the Dr. Tony Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Department of Business, Innovation and Skills on this Health if he will take steps to maintain the present topic. (a) level of funding for audiology training courses and Strategic health authorities (SHAs) are responsible as (b) number of trained paediatric audiologists. [321346] regional education commissioners for delivering the number of undergraduate nursing and midwifery places Ann Keen: The level of funding allocated for audiology commissioned each year. The numbers are based on the training courses is a matter for individual strategic long term workforce requirements of their service providers. health authorities. Working with stakeholders, we are More midwives are being trained than ever before developing a range of education and training programmes and the latest figures show there has been a 38 per cent. which will have a focus on audiology as part of modernising increase in the number of students entering training to scientific careers. These will encompass the needs of become a midwife since 1996-97. both adult and paediatric services. SHAs are on track to meet the Government’s Hepatitis: Prisoners commitment to have in place 4,000 extra midwives by 2012 subject to the birth rate. Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his estimate is of the number of people in prison Myelodysplastic Syndromes who have (a) HIV, (b) hepatitis B and (c) hepatitis C. [321148] Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many patients have been diagnosed with Phil Hope: The Health Protection Agency is responsible myelodysplastic syndromes since 1997. [321378] for gathering information on the incidence and prevalence of blood-borne viruses (BBVs) in the population. Current Angela E. Smith: I have been asked to reply. surveillance systems cannot routinely differentiate infections The information requested falls within the responsibility detected among prisoners from those identified among of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority people in the community. to reply. The Department estimates the burden of infection Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2010: with BBVs among the adult prison population in England As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I and Wales to be the following: have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many patients have been diagnosed with myelodysplastic syndromes Number since 1997. [321378] The latest available figures for newly diagnosed cases of HIV 163 (146-179) myelodysplastic syndromes (incidence) are for the year 2007. Hepatitis B 1,327 (1,194-1,459) Please note that the number of cases may not be the same as the Hepatitis C 4,083 (3,674-4,491) number of people diagnosed with myelodysplastic syndromes, Note: because one person may be diagnosed with more than one incidence Calculated using adult sentenced prison population—21 and over of of myelodysplastic syndromes. 59,350 on 30 June 2009, prevalence of heroin and cocaine use, the Table 1 provides the numbers of newly diagnosed cases of percentage of these who ever injected and estimate of prevalence from myelodysplastic syndromes in England, for each year from 1997 Unlinked Anonymous Prevalence Monitoring Programme’s study of to 2007. injecting drug users, and giving +/- 10 per cent. range. Table 1. Registrations of newly diagnosed cases of myelodysplastic Mental Health Services: Advocacy syndromes,1 England, 1997 to 20072 Persons Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health by what mechanisms his Department monitors compliance 1997 1,602 by primary care trusts with the duty to make available 1998 1,557 independent mental health advocate services for qualifying 1999 2,441 patient; and what recent discussions he has had with the 2000 2,119 Care Quality Commission on compliance with that 2001 2,438 duty. [321342] 2002 2,263 2003 2,318 Phil Hope: Strategic health authorities are responsible 2004 2,299 for the performance management of primary care trusts. 2005 2,286 We understand the Care Quality Commission is currently 2006 2,147 collecting information on the availability of independent 2007 1,898 mental health advocates when visiting hospitals which 1 Myelodysplastic syndromes is coded as D46 in the International detain patients under the Mental Health Act. Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). 2 Newly diagnosed cases registered in each calendar year. Midwives: Training Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Dr. Richard Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for what treatments are available on the NHS for patients Health what recent discussions he has had with the diagnosed with myelodysplastic syndromes. [321381] Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the likely effects of plans for future numbers of Ann Keen: The 2003 “Improving Outcomes in university places on the numbers of midwives in Haematological Cancers” guidance from the National training; and if he will make a statement. [321086] Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence sets out 353W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 354W recommendations about the care and treatment of patients (2) what guidelines his Department provides on with myelodysplastic syndromes, with the emphasis on preventing group B streptococcal infection in newborn symptom control and supportive treatment. babies. [321082] It is for the national health service locally to implement this guidance. Good progress has been made and the Ann Keen: Current guidance for obstetricians, midwives National Cancer Action Team continue to work with and neonatologists is provided by the Royal College of the NHS at a local level to ensure full implementation. Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, (RCOG) which published its Green-top guideline No. 36 on the prevention of National Treatment Agency: Public Relations early-onset neonatal group B streptococcus disease in November 2003. In 2005, the RCOG, in collaboration with the National Screening Committee, established a Mr. Maude: To ask the Secretary of State for Health national audit to evaluate practice in United Kingdom how much the National Treatment Agency has spent obstetric units against the recommendations of the on external public relations in each of the last three guideline. The audit published in January 2007, reported years; what payments have been made; and for what that current practice followed the established patterns purposes. [320713] of care described in the RCOG guideline. Gillian Merron: The National Treatment Agency for The Department supports the Maternity Standards Substance Misuse’s spend on external public relation published by the RCOG in 2008, which state that maternity agencies in each of the last three years is given in the services should comply with evidence-based guidelines following table: for the provision of high-quality clinical care. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence External public relations spend clinical guidelines for routine antenatal care, published (£) in 2008, recommends that pregnant women should not 2006-07 0 be offered routine antenatal screening for group B 2007-08 41,502 streptococcus because evidence of its clinical and cost 2008-09 0 effectiveness remains uncertain. Information for women on Group B streptococcus is The payments and purposes of the 2007-08 external contained in “the Pregnancy book”—a guide to health public relations spend are as follows: pregnancy, labour and giving birth, life with your new baby, which is given to all pregnant women during their Company Purpose Payment (£) antenatal care. A copy has already been placed in the SB Communications support 17,500 Library. Information is also available on NHS Direct Communications and NHS Choices website. Women who are concerned Chappie Ltd. Consultancy 3,290 are advised to talk to their doctor or midwife. Fishburn Hedges Communications support 8,674 DHA Communications support 12,038 Communications HOME DEPARTMENT Northampton Hospital: Waiting Lists British Nationality Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many people were on the waiting list for treatment Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the at Northampton general hospital in (a) 1997 and (b) Home Department how many people of each nationality were granted UK citizenship (a) between 1980 and the latest year for which figures are available. [321267] 1987 and (b) between 1988 and 1997; and how many Phil Hope: In-patient waiting list figures for Northampton have been granted UK citizenship since 1997. [317831] general hospital NHS trust are shown in the following table. Alan Johnson: The available data for 1977 to 2008 are given in the following table. Data for 2009 are scheduled Total patients waiting for for publication in May 2010. Period admission Statistics on persons granted British citizenship by previous nationality, type and category of grant are March 1997 5,796 published in table 4 of the Home Office Statistical March 2009 3,516 Bulletin “British Citizenship Statistics United Kingdom, January 2010 3,779 2008”. This publication may be obtained from the Source: Library of the House and from the Home Office Research, Department of Health KH07 and MMR returns from national health service trusts Development and Statistics website at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration1.html Streptococcus: Babies Persons granted British citizenship, 1977 to 20081, 2, 11 Number of persons Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 1998- (1) what steps are being taken by his Department to Previous nationality 1977-87 1988-97 2008 increase levels of compliance with the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists’ guidelines on preventing Europe group B streptococcal infection in newborn babies; Albania 5 20 4,710 [321081] Andorra — * * 355W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 356W

Persons granted British citizenship, 1977 to 20081, 2, 11 Persons granted British citizenship, 1977 to 20081, 2, 11 Number of persons Number of persons 1998- 1998- Previous nationality 1977-87 1988-97 2008 Previous nationality 1977-87 1988-97 2008

Armenia — 25 705 Bahamas 180 210 230 Austria 730 435 285 Barbados 9,255 7,595 1,570 Azerbaijan — * 815 Belize 45 180 235 Belarus — 10 950 Bolivia 185 160 465 Belgium 860 385 460 Brazil 700 1,010 4,610 Bosnia-Herzegovina — 45 5,820 Canada 4,110 8,985 10,215 Bulgaria 100 365 4,880 Chile 545 750 1,125 Croatia — 255 4,355 Colombia 780 1,695 10,585 Cyprus 10,785 5,605 4,395 Costa Rica 55 40 115 Czech Republic — 45 915 Cuba 65 45 655 Denmark 375 190 330 Dominica 5,380 2,585 605 Estonia 80 95 305 Dominican Republic 30 90 395 Finland 305 170 215 Ecuador 95 110 3,710 Former Czechoslovakia 875 295 20 El Salvador 115 95 135 Former Yugoslavia 1,850 2,505 865 French Guyana — — 5 France 6,110 2,615 3,485 Grenada 7,740 3,475 980 Georgia — 10 770 Guatemala 100 35 125 Germany3 5,845 2,445 2,835 Guyana 6,360 3,395 2,800 Gibraltar (GBR) — — * Haiti 30 5 45 Greece 2,565 1,365 2,290 Honduras 195 80 100 Hungary 1,515 920 1,465 Jamaica 77,635 52,670 26,665 Iceland 50 55 50 Martinique — — * Ireland 4,155 15,130 1,310 Mexico 695 360 1,320 Italy 6,005 2,240 2,950 Netherlands Antilles — * 5 Kazakhstan — 5 595 Nicaragua 85 35 70 Kyrgyzstan — 5 215 Panama 65 40 125 Latvia 320 260 495 Panama Canal Zone — — * Liechtenstein 10 * 5 Paraguay 55 25 45 Lithuania 140 135 1,015 Peru 530 615 1,680 Luxembourg 20 5 20 Puerto Rico * * — Macedonia (former — 60 1,005 St. Kitts and Nevis 20 75 90 Yugoslav Republic of) St. Lucia 6,155 2,905 1,190 Malta 1,440 1,700 1,440 St. Pierre and Miquelon — — * Moldova — 25 615 Monaco 10 5 5 St. Vincent and the 5,090 2,415 925 Grenadines Netherlands 1,180 620 1,075 Surinam 5 10 45 Norway 535 595 270 Trinidad and Tobago 2,925 5,730 5,450 Poland 8,125 5,760 6,515 USA 5,460 8,670 24,990 Portugal 1,870 1,030 4,205 Uruguay 120 105 125 Romania 240 400 4,070 Russia — 750 13,225 Venezuela 320 305 935 San Marino 10 — 5 Americas total 135,970 105,190 103,600 Serbia and Montenegro4 — 295 37,130 Slovakia — 10 1,385 Africa Slovenia — 40 125 Algeria 290 1,485 10,395 Soviet Union (USSR) 525 350 25 Angola 5 30 6,005 Spain 3,930 1,215 1,260 Benin 5 10 85 Sweden 590 470 615 Botswana 70 55 220 Switzerland 3,775 2,145 1,360 Burkina Faso * 5 50 Tajikistan — — 55 Burundi — 5 2,385 Turkey 2,450 7,055 53,495 Cameroon 45 160 2,700 Turkmenistan — — 75 Cape Verde 10 30 30 Ukraine * 1,065 5,480 Central African —520 Uzbekistan — * 395 Republic Europe total 67,375 59,240 181,375 Chad * * 205 Comoros — * 10 Americas Congo — 10 5,605 Antigua and Barbuda 70 115 180 Dem. Rep. of Congo5 20 130 10,590 Argentina 775 580 1,035 Djibouti 5 15 115 Aruba * — — Egypt 3,595 3,570 6,035 357W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 358W

Persons granted British citizenship, 1977 to 20081, 2, 11 Persons granted British citizenship, 1977 to 20081, 2, 11 Number of persons Number of persons 1998- 1998- Previous nationality 1977-87 1988-97 2008 Previous nationality 1977-87 1988-97 2008

Equatorial Guinea * * 25 Jordan 930 1,730 2,695 Eritrea — 405 7,780 Kuwait 75 125 985 Ethiopia 225 1,400 6,340 Lebanon 1,800 3,100 7,230 Gabon 5 10 60 Oman 20 15 70 Gambia 200 275 2,565 Palestine — 5 2,000 Ghana 5,750 11,160 32,580 Qatar 10 10 50 Guinea * 10 295 Saudi Arabia 45 190 555 Guinea-Bissau — * 60 Syria 770 1,140 2,690 Ivory Coast (Cote D 5 60 2,760 United Arab Emirates 55 40 185 Ivoire) Yemen 7 1,020 1,735 4,505 Kenya 10,245 5,295 15,670 Middle East Total 19,835 32,585 89,605 Lesotho 30 20 65 Liberia 45 65 1,525 Other Asia Libya (Arab Republic) 240 1,170 4,000 Afghanistan 105 470 31,920 Madagascar (Malagasy 20 25 65 Republic) Bhutan 5 * 125 Malawi 970 415 1,030 Brunei 15 35 70 Mali * 5 40 Cambodia 80 285 245 (Kampuchea) Mauritania 5 20 100 China8 12,930 7,245 25,070 Mauritius 7,470 4,705 7,755 Hong Kong SAR of ——90 Morocco 1,205 5,505 6,865 China (Holder of Mozambique 35 75 205 Certificate of Identity or Document of Identity) Namibia — 25 180 Hong Kong SAR of —10965 Niger — 5 55 China (Holder of Nigeria 2,405 14,170 60,990 Special Administrative Peoples Democratic ——5Region Passport) Republic of Burkino Indonesia 355 285 1,340 Rwanda 10 10 2,725 Japan 305 345 1,380 Sao Tome Principe — — 5 Korea (North) — * 45 Senegal 5 25 270 Korea (South) 455 400 2,730 Seychelles 1,255 745 915 Laos 40 175 90 Sierra Leone 940 1,740 12,605 Malaysia 3,470 3,465 4,660 Somalia 470 2,660 70,175 Maldives 5 5 60 South Africa 21,320 14,880 48,180 Mongolia — 5 235 Sudan 365 930 10,755 Myanmar (Burma) 410 665 1,295 Swaziland 75 40 90 Nepal 190 255 4,250 Tanzania 4,835 2,715 4,750 Philippines 4,485 10,115 38,745 Singapore 1,935 835 1,110 Togo 15 45 585 Sri Lanka 6,545 12,260 49,295 Tunisia 240 615 1,630 Thailand 1,060 1,860 9,370 Uganda 3,005 1,270 12,465 Tibet 10 * 10 Upper Senegal and —** Niger Vietnam 1,375 12,970 5,455 Other Asia total 33,775 51,680 178,560 Western Sahara — — * Zambia 1,915 1,300 3,835 Zimbabwe6 8,455 2,820 21,575 Oceania Africa total 75,820 80,125 386,035 American Samoa — — 20 Australia 6,230 7,145 21,110 Bouvet Island — — — Indian sub-continent Fiji 760 570 510 Bangladesh 21,480 31,135 48,365 Kiribati 15 * 15 India 65,330 69,395 117,060 Marshall Islands — — * Pakistan 75,070 47,860 108,935 Nauru — — 10 Indian sub-continent 161,880 148,390 274,360 New Zealand 3,875 6,485 12,080 total Papua New Guinea 30 10 45 Samoa 10 10 20 Middle East Solomon Islands 130 10 20 Bahrain 95 100 255 Tonga 25 20 60 Iran 7,055 14,700 27,115 Tuvalu 5 5 * Iraq 3,155 6,690 36,755 Vanuatu 5 10 10 Israel 4,805 3,005 4,525 Oceania total 11,090 14,270 33,895 359W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 360W

Persons granted British citizenship, 1977 to 20081, 2, 11 use of information and the numbers subject to disciplinary Number of persons action or dismissal are as follows: 1998- Falsified records and manipulated Home Office systems: 5 Previous nationality 1977-87 1988-97 2008 Unauthorised access to a database or allowing another person to use their log in: 6 Others It is UKBA policy not to disclose any personal British overseas 9,555 19,175 5,650 information or to provide a further breakdown of the territories citizen9 numbers of staff below five where this may potentially British National — — 3,855 reveal to a third party the identity of the individuals (Overseas) involved. British Overseas Citizen 5,115 15,600 22,945 We have therefore provided a total of the staff disciplined British Protected 10,790 3,365 2,660 for each activity recorded which constituted inappropriate Persons use of information. British Subjects 710 3,650 2,990 IPS records do not specify the activities involved in Nationality Unknown 14,420 10,915 610 each particular case. Nationality Unknown — * 380 Officially Designated as Departmental Pay Stateless Stateless10 6,205 160 610 Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Secretary of State for the Stateless—Defined 1954 — — 560 Home Department what the (a) average and (b) highest Convention non-consolidated performance-related payment was in Stateless Refugee— ——55cash terms for senior civil servants in his Department in Defined 1951 each of the last five years. [305959] Convention Stateless Refugee— — — 185 Mr. Woolas: The criterion for awarding senior civil Other servants (SCS) with performance related bonuses is set Others total 46,785 52,865 40,500 by the Prime Minister following independent advice from the senior salaries review body (SSRB). The level Grand total 552,535 544,345 1,287,930 of payments takes into account a number of factors 1 Figures for 1977 to 1983 include both grants made in and outside including individual performance against agreed priority the United Kingdom. business objectives and targets. Bonuses reward and 2 Figures for 1984 to 2008 exclude grants made outside the United provide incentives for in-year delivery of key results. Kingdom and Gibraltar BDTCs registered under section 5 of the British Nationality Act 1981. Over the three years of SR 04 the Home Office met all 3 Includes both the German Democratic Republic and German its PSA objectives. Federal Republic before 1991. The following table shows the average (mean) and 4 Includes Serbia, Montenegro and Kosovo. highest non-consolidated end-of-year performance-related 5 Formerly known as Zaire. 6 Known as Southern Rhodesia prior to 1980. bonuses for the SCS in the Home Office for the performance 7 Comprises Yemen Arab Republic and Yemen People’s Democratic years 2005-06, 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09. We are Republic prior to 1991. unable to give information from previous years as these 8 Includes Macau and Taiwan. records are not held centrally and it is not possible to 9 Known as British dependant territories citizens prior to February provide the information required without incurring 2002. 10 Includes ‘British subjects without citizenship’ and ‘No disproportionate costs. Nationality’ categories from previous publications. Average (mean) and highest end-of-year performance-related, non- 11 Provisional figures. consolidated bonuses paid for the last four performance years Note: Performance year Average (£) Highest (£) Figures rounded to nearest 5 with “*” = 1 or 2 and “—” = nil. Totals may not sum to component values. 2008-09 9,225 15,000 Source: 2007-08 9,952 22,000 Home Office, Migration Statistics 2006-07 9,577 20,000 Departmental Data Protection 2005-06 6,868 15,000

Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Departmental Theft Home Department pursuant to the answer of 18 January 2010, Official Report, column 29W, on departmental Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the data protection, what activities constituted inappropriate Home Department what items valued at above £100 use of information in each case of disciplinary action were reported as stolen from his Department’s buildings and dismissal. [313461] or premises in the last 12 months. [317832] Alan Johnson: To gather the information required Alan Johnson [holding answer 26 January 2010]: would incur disproportionate costs. Further to my answer of 18 January 2010, Official Report, column 29W, that confirmed that UK Border Emergency Calls: Hoaxes and False Alarms Agency (UKBA) and Identity and Passport Service (IPS) staff had been subject to disciplinary action and Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the dismissal for inappropriate use of information obtained Home Department what proportion of 999 calls from an immigration database and/or an identity card responded to by the police in England and Wales were or passport database, I can confirm that in respect of found to be hoaxes in the last year for which figures are UKBA the activities which constituted inappropriate available. [320549] 361W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 362W

Alan Johnson: A figure for the proportion of 999 calls environment; the relative cost of the products to the responded to by police forces in England and Wales public; and travel patterns, all of which can vary over found to be hoaxes is not available. Data are available time. The IPS cost report provides total product volumes through the annual data return on the number of incidents predictions that attempt to take account of these variables recorded by police forces in the category ‘hoax calls to and the figures given above are exactly in line with the emergency services’ as defined within the national incident 10-year financial projections in the October 2009 cost category list (NICL). However, not all calls in this report. category will have come through the 999 system. The number of incidents recorded by police forces in Illegal Immigrants the category ‘hoax calls to emergency services’ as defined within the national incident category list (NICL) for Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2008-09 was 135,491. The data are normally for Home Department how many people employed (a) on management information only and are not subject to his Department’s premises and (b) by an agency of his the detailed checks that apply for national statistics Department were found to have been working illegally publications. They are provisional and may be subject in the UK in each year since 1997. [317546] to change. The data represent calls for service as recorded by police forces under the relevant categories and may be subject to local variation in reporting and classifying. Alan Johnson: Table 1 sets out the number of people employed on the Department’s premises or by an agency Entry Clearances: Fraud of the Department since 2002. Data from before 2002 is not held. Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people have been issued Incident with the maximum sentence of a 10-year travel ban to 2002 1 UKBA contractor the UK for attempting to use false documents in order 2003 None to obtain a visa in each of the last 10 years. [318705] 2004 1 contractor and one member of staff both UKBA Alan Johnson: In 2008, the Immigration Rules were 2005 2 UKBA contractors and one Prison Service amended to allow applications for entry clearance, leave employee to enter or leave to remain to be refused on the grounds 2006 9 UKBA contractors and one Home Office that the applicant had previously breached UK immigration contractor law (paragraph 320(7B)). Among those affected are 2007 1 Home Office contractor people who have used deception (e.g. false documents) 2008 1 UKBA contractor when applying for entry clearance in the last 10 years. 2009 1 Home Office contractor We are currently unable to identify from central records entry clearance applications that have been Illegal Immigrants: Greater London refused under a particular paragraph of the Rules. We therefore cannot say how many people have so far been refused entry clearance under paragraph 320(7B). However, Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for the all persons who have previously used deception in an Home Department how many people in (a) the London application for entry clearance are effectively banned Borough of Bexley and (b) Greater London have been from the UK, unless the deception took place more prosecuted for offences related to the employment of than 10 years ago. people who did not have permission to work in the UK since 1997. [321056] Identity Cards Claire Ward: I have been asked to reply. Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of The number of persons proceeded against at magistrates 26 January 2010, Official Report, column 819W, on courts in the Metropolitan police force area for offences passports, what proportion of the estimated 49 million of employing a person subject to immigration control products to be issued between April 2012 and March without permission to work from 1997 to 2008 (latest available) are given in the table as follows. Court proceedings 2017 he estimates will be identity cards. [315002] data are not available at local authority area level. Alan Johnson: The current underpinning assumptions Prosecution data for the criminal offence of employing used for planning purposes in preparing the cost report a person without permission to work are not representative indicate that approximately 49 million products will be of the totality of UK Border Agency enforcement issued over the period April 2012 to March 2017 of action against illegal migrant working. The criminal which we expect approximately 32 million passports offence in the Asylum and Immigration Act 1996 was and 17 million identity cards. These are total product replaced with a system of civil penalties in the Immigration, volumes, including transactions associated with the Asylum and Nationality Act 2006. So far, the UK replacement of lost or damaged items, but excluding Border Agency has issued over 3,800 financial penalties transactions that do not require product issuance, such nationwide to employers found to have employed persons as changes of address. subject to immigration control without the right to It is Government policy that the public will be able to work, having failed to comply with the requirement to purchase a passport or an identity card or both. As perform specified document checks. such, the product mix of identity cards and passports Data for 2009 are planned for publication in the depends on a number of factors including: the economic autumn, 2010. 363W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 364W

Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts in the Alan Johnson: Data on the time taken and number of Metropolitan police force area for offences relating to employing a staff required to process an arrest are not reported to person knowing that they are subject to immigration control, 1997 to 20081, 2, 3 the Home Office. Employing a person subject to A Custody Record is the only ″form″ which the Police immigration control who has attained and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) and the codes of the age of 16; Employing a person practice require to be completed in all arrests at designated knowing that they are subject to stations. Statutory responsibility for their accuracy and immigration control who has not been granted leave to enter or remain, or completion fall to the custody officer, not the arresting whose leave to remain is invalid etc. officer. Additional forms required depend upon the individual circumstances of particular cases and therefore 1997 — it is not possible to accurately estimate the average 1998 — number of forms involved in each arrest. 1999 — 2000 4 Terrorism: Stop and Search 2001 1 2002 — Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State 2003 2 for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 2004 6 11 January 2010, Official Report, column 702W, on 2005 5 terrorism: stop and search, if he will place in the Library 2006 4 a copy of the (a) National Policing Improvement Agency 2007 1 guidance on stop and search powers, (b) letter to all 2008 4 chief constables whose forces had standing section 44 1 Includes offences under: Asylum and Immigration Acts 1996 and authorisations and (c) guidance of 15 December 2009 1999; Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006. on photography in public places. [319743] 2 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant Mr. Hanson: The National Policing Improvement has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is Agency (NPIA) guidance on stop and search powers is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is available publicly on the NPIA website. The Metropolitan the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most Police Service guidance is also available on the MPS severe. website. My letter to all chief constables whose forces 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate had section 44 authorisations was made public at the and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have end of 2009. All three of these documents will be placed been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken in the Library. to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES

Immigrants: Detainees Children: Databases

Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Home Department how many (a) child asylum seekers for Children, Schools and Families for how long (a) and (b) children of asylum seekers of each age group unique pupil numbers and (b) unique learner numbers from each country have been held in immigration are held after a child leaves secondary education. detention prior to deportation at each location in each [319610] year since 1997. [319776] Mr. Coaker: Unique pupil numbers (UPN) are used Alan Johnson: The information is not held centrally to facilitate the tracking of pupils’ movement and progress and could only be provided by checking individual within the maintained school system in England. The records over the period requested at a disproportionate number is allocated to each pupil according to a nationally cost. specified formula on their first entry to school and is a unique identifier, which is intended to remain with them throughout their school career. Police: Bureaucracy The unique learner number (ULN) is a 10-digit identifier which is allocated by the Learning and Skills Council to Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the pupils in schools in England in year 9 as they approach Home Department (1) how many forms were required their 14th birthday. Pupils will retain the same ULN for to be completed by police officers and police staff, on accessing details of their education and skills participation average, to process an individual arrest in the most and achievement through and beyond their post-14 recent year for which figures are obtainable; [320551] school career. (2) if he will estimate the number of police officers The Department currently holds all of the UPNs and and staff that were required to process the average ULNs it has collected via the School Census in the arrest for the most recent year for which figures are Department’s national pupil database (NPD). The NPD obtainable; [320552] is a longitudinal database, containing pupil and student (3) how long it took on average to process an characteristic information from the School Census, matched individual arrest in the most recent year for which to attainment data at each key stage. The data held in figures are obtainable. [320553] the NPD is used to monitor achievement and participation 365W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 366W in the education sector and also to inform, influence Mr. Coaker: The following table provides the full-time and improve education research and education policy. equivalent number of teaching assistants in service in The information currently held in the NPD allows for local authority maintained schools, city technology colleges the tracking of pupil attainment at key stage 5 with and academies in Jarrow constituency, South Tyneside their achievement back to key stage 1. local authority, the North East government office region Our retention policy, including archiving data with and England, January each year, 1997 to 2009. the national archive, is currently being developed as Full-time equivalent teaching assistants in service in local authority part of gaining accreditation to ISO 27001. maintained schools, city technology colleges and academies, January each year, 1997 to 2009— Jarrow constituency, South Tyneside local authority, the North East Government Office region and England Class Sizes: Greater London South Tyneside North East Jarrow local Government Lynne Featherstone: To ask the Secretary of State for constituency authority Office region England Children, Schools and Families what the ratio of pupils to teachers in (a) primary and (b) secondary schools January in each London borough has been in each of the last 1997 90 160 2,870 60,600 five years; and if he will make a statement. [319064] 1998 90 160 2,990 65,560 1999 100 160 3,150 69,700 Mr. Coaker: The information requested for January 2000 100 180 3,450 79,050 2009 is published in table 27 of the Statistical First 2001 140 250 4,280 95,020 Release (SFR) “School Workforce In England (including 2002 200 350 4,010 105,440 local authority level figures) January 2009 (Revised)” 2003 150 280 5,070 121,270 published on 29 September 2009. The SFR is available 2004 230 420 5,660 132,240 at the following web link: 2005 240 440 6,470 147,250 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000874/ 2006 260 470 6,980 153,510 Tables19to27v2.xls 2007 260 440 7,490 163,800 The information requested for January 2008 is published 2008 280 460 8,100 176,990 in table 27 of Statistical First Release (SFR) “School 2009 290 500 8,520 183,700 Workforce in England (including local authority level Note: figures), January 2008 (Revised)”published on 25 September Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2008. The SFR is available at the following web link: Source: School Census http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000813/ SFR262008_Tables_LA20081021-2.xls Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings The information requested for January 2007 is published in table 25 of Statistical First Release (SFR) “School Workforce in England (including pupil: teacher ratios Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for and pupil: adult ratios), January 2007 (Revised)”published Children, Schools and Families how many (a) disciplinary on 27 September 2007. The SFR is available at the and (b) capability procedures have been (i) initiated following web link: and (ii) completed in his Department in each of the last http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000743/ five years; how much time on average was taken to SFR29_2007_FinalTables18-25.xls complete each type of procedure in each such year; how many and what proportion of his Department’s staff The information requested for January 2006 is published were subject to each type of procedure in each such in table 25 of Statistical First Release (SFR) “School year; and how many and what proportion of each type Workforce in England (including pupil: teacher ratios of procedure resulted in the dismissal of the member of and pupil: adult ratios), January 2006 (Revised)”published staff. [320634] on 28 September 2006. The SFR is available at the following web link: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000681/ Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department was created addition2v2.xls in June 2007. Staff may be the subject of formal disciplinary and capability procedures which are resolved without The information requested for January 2005 is published the imposition of any penalty, the formal procedures in table 21 of Statistical First Release (SFR) “School may also lead to dismissal for poor performance, poor Workforce in England (including pupil: teacher ratios attendance or misconduct, and the contract of employment and Pupil: adult ratios), January 2005 (Revised)”published terminated. Information for the Department and its on 28 September 2005. The SFR is available at the predecessors in relation to dismissals for performance, following web link: attendance or misconduct is set out as follows. Totals of http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000603/ less than five are suppressed on grounds of confidentiality. WebTables15-21v2.xls Number of Number of Classroom Assistants Disciplinary staff Capability staff procedures dismissed: procedures dismissed: initiated Disciplinary initiated Capability Mr. Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many teaching assistants 2007-08 9 Less 13 Less have been employed in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) July than 5 than 5 2006-07 7 Less 12 Less South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) England in than 5 than 5 each year since 1997. [321115] 367W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 368W

Exclusive A4 copier paper 80gsm white Number of Number of Disciplinary staff Capability staff Brand: Steinbeis procedures dismissed: procedures dismissed: Recycled A3 80gsm pure white initiated Disciplinary initiated Capability Recycled A4 80gsm pure white 2005-06 9 Less 6 Less Brand: Evolve than 5 than 5 Office paper A3 80gsm white The number of cases initiated under formal procedures Business paper A4 80gsm white for capability and discipline is given, outcomes and Office paper A4 80gsm white timescales for completion are not recorded centrally Brand: Conqueror and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Correspondence CX22 paper A4 100gsm D/white Staff may also be dismissed in law when a fixed term Card contract terminates at the end of the contract period Brand: Xerox and is not renewed is not included above. That information is not held in the format requested and could be provided A4 Symp tinted card 160gsm only at disproportionate cost. Brand: Banner Index card 230gsm white Departmental Paper Index card A4 150gsm white Brand: Vanguard Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for A4 Card 200mu ivory Children, Schools and Families what (a) suppliers and (b) brands of (i) paper and (ii) paper products his The Department has a policy to buy 100 per cent. Department uses; and what his Department’s policy is recycled paper to use in photocopiers and desktop on the procurement of those materials. [320034] printers. Printed publications: Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department buys paper Supplier: The Department’s Publishing Delivery Service products in the following categories. is operated as a joint venture by Prolog and Communisis. Copier papers No specific brand is used. This is determined by the Printing papers item required and the availability in the paper market at Hygiene products (including toilet tissue, paper towels, kitchen that time. towels) The Department has a policy of using 100 per cent. Packaging materials (including cardboard, tissue paper) recycled paper for all printed publications packaging Craft materials (including card, tissue) materials (including cardboard, tissue paper). For each category, I have shown below, the suppliers, The supplier, Prolog, source the packing materials for brands of paper and paper products the Department fulfilment purposes through their 2nd tier supplier uses. Macfarlanes. Desktop stationery—copier papers, printing papers, card Brands used: The Department’s desktop stationery contract is with Arofol bags—’Arofol’ Banner Business Services. Mailtuff bags—’Sealed Air Mailtuff’ Brand: Banner Envelopes—’Blake’ A4 copier paper 100gsm white Cartons—Non-branded A4 copier paper 90gsm white Postal tubes—Non-branded A4 Office paper 4 hole 80gsm white Bubble wrap—‘Sealed Air’ A4 Office paper 2 hole 80gsm white Shrink wrap—Non-branded High res inkjet paper 190gsm A4 Paper—’Xerox’ Duplicating paper A4 80gsm pink The Department’s policy for bags, wrap and envelopes A4 Copier paper 80gsm white is to keep waste to a minimum by using materials which A3 Office copier 80gsm white are 100 per cent. recyclable. A4 Office copier 80gsm white Paper hygiene products A3 Value copier 80gsm white All paper hygiene products used in DCSF, including A4 Value copier 80gsm white soft toilet tissue and paper hand towels, are produced Brand: EP4 entirely from 100 per cent. recycled materials as per the contract specification. Copier paper A4 80gsm white Paper A4 4 hole 80gsm white Paper hygiene consumables are ordered by Mitie Cleaning and Environmental Services Ltd. and supplied by Bunzl. Brand: Xerox The brands used are Kimberley Clarke and Tork. A4 Symphony tinted paper 80gsm Dk Yell A4 Symphony tinted paper 80gsm Departmental Pay A4 Colotech copier 160gsm white A3 Premier copier 90gsm white Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, A4 Business copier 80gsm white Schools and Families how much his Department spent A4 Performer copier 80gsm white on wages for (a) special advisers and (b) communications A4 Pastel multicolour paper 80gsm or press officers in each year since 2003. [319147] 369W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 370W

Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Government publish, on been allocated by (a) his Department and (b) other an annual basis, information on the names, number and departments to the Teachers’ International overall cost of special advisers. The last published list Professional Development Programme in each year can be found at: since 2000. [318236] http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/ cmhansrd/cm090716/wmstext/ Mr. Coaker: The Teachers International Professional 90716m0008.htm#09071651000054 Development (TIPD) programme is funded by the For information on part (b) of the question, this Department for Children, Schools and Families and the information could be obtained only at disproportionate Department for International Development. Information cost. on the funding allocated by each Department for the period 2000-01 to 2010-11 is provided in the following Education: International Cooperation tables: Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much funding has

£ 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06

DCSF expenditure 2,696,606 2,898,652 2,444,455 2,686,780 3,070,956 3,149,642 DFID expenditure 50,620 43,689 34,686 39,829 38,957 40,157 Total expenditure 2,747,226 2,942,341 2,479,141 2,726,609 3,109,913 3,189,799

£ 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Department total

DCSF expenditure 3,278,761 3,262,164 3,558,593 3,768,979 3,886,470 34,702,059 DFID expenditure 41,781 44,628 68,287 70,336 72,446 545,414 Total expenditure 3,320,541 3,306,792 3,626,880 3,839,315 3,958,916 35,247,473

Gifted Children: Poole The following table shows the number and percentage of children identified as gifted and talented in Poole Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, unitary authority in the January 2009 census. Schools and Families how many pupils in the Poole 1 1, 2 unitary authority area were given places on the Young, Figures include primary and secondary school 3 Gifted and Talented Programme in the latest period for data broken down by the number and percentage of which figures are available. [320387] gifted and talented pupils. Ms Diana R. Johnson: Through the School Census schools are asked to confirm the number of gifted and talented pupils they have identified.

Maintained primary1 and state-funded secondary1, 2 schools: number3 and percentage of gifted and talented pupils. As at January 2009. In the unitary authority of Poole Maintained primary schools State-funded secondary schools Primary and secondary schools Percentage of Percentage of Number of gifted Percentage of gifted Number of gifted gifted and talented Number of gifted gifted and talented and talented pupils and talented pupils and talented pupils pupils and talented pupils pupils

2009 780 7.7 1,975 23.5 2,750 14.8 1 All data includes middle schools as deemed. 2 All data includes City Technology Colleges and Academies. 3 All data shows solely registered pupils only. Note: Pupil numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: School Census

A data table showing information for all local authorities Great Grimsby constituency, the effects of his in England has been placed in the Libraries of both Department’s policies on that constituency since 1997. Houses. [320187] Mr. Coaker: Since 1997 the Government have Grimsby transformed education and child care with improved outcomes for children and young people. Figures showing Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for the performance at key stage 2, and at GCSE and Children, Schools and Families if he will set out, with equivalents in Great Grimsby are given in the following statistical information related as directly as possible to tables: 371W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 372W

Key stage 2 results of 11-year-old pupils attending schools in the Great Illegal Immigrants Grimsby constituency Percentage Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, point Schools and Families how many staff his Department, Percentage of pupils improvement gaining level 4 and 1997 to its predecessors and its agencies have appointed who above1 1997 20092 2009 were later discovered to be illegal immigrants since 2005. [320499] Great Grimsby English 50 73 23 Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department was created Maths 48 73 25 in June 2007 and no members of staff have been employed Science 53 84 31 and later discovered to be illegal immigrants. The Department does not hold records for its predecessor Departments and has no agencies. England English 63 80 17 Languages: Secondary Education Maths 62 79 17 Science 68 88 20 Mr. Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Includes pupils attending all maintained schools (including academies Children, Schools and Families (1) whether he plans to and city technology colleges). take steps to encourage schools to continue to provide 2 Revised data. teaching in Mandarin for pupils in years 10 and 11; Source: [321285] School and College Achievement and Attainment Tables. (2) whether he plans to take steps to encourage GCSE and equivalents1 results for pupils2 attending schools3 in the Great Grimsby constituency students to take up opportunities to learn Mandarin in Percentage schools; [321286] point (3) what his policy is on the provision of teaching of improvement Mandarin in schools in years 10 and 11. [321287] Percentage of pupils 1997 to gaining 1997 20094 2009 Ms Diana R. Johnson: Mandarin language skills are Great Grimsby becoming increasingly important for the future of our economy and we wish to encourage schools to offer the 5+ A*-C 18.2 62.1 43.9 language where possible. Languages will become 5+ A*-G 73.3 85.3 12.0 compulsory for 7 to 11-year-olds from September 2011. The choice of which languages to teach is for schools to England make. We are funding the development of the primary 5+ A*-C5 45.1 70.0 24.9 schools workforce to prepare for compulsory language 5+ A*-G5 86.4 92.3 5.9 learning, including beginning in 2010/11 a primary initial 1 From 2004 results incorporate GCSEs, GNVQs and a range of other teacher training programme with a Mandarin specialism. qualifications approved pre-16. Prior to 2004 results are based on Languages remain compulsory for 11 to 14-year-olds. GCSEs and GNVQs only. Since 2008 we have widened the range of languages 2 From 2006 figures are for pupils at the end of key stage 4. Prior to 2006 results are based on pupils aged 15. secondary schools can offer by lifting the requirement 3 Includes pupils attending all maintained schools (including academies that schools must teach first a working language of the and city technology colleges) and from 2000 does not include pupils European Union. Research shows that 16 per cent. of recently arrived from overseas. secondary schools are now offering Mandarin Chinese 4 Revised data. either within or outside curriculum time, up from 9 per 5 England figures also include independent schools as well as hospital schools and PRUs. cent in 2007. Source: Languages have not been compulsory for 14 to 16-year- School and College Achievement and Attainment Tables. olds since 2004. Since then, languages have been an entitlement subject and schools must offer the opportunity Further information by constituency is available on to learn a language to all pupils who wish to do so. the Department’s ‘In Your Area’ website: While the overall numbers of entries by pupils for a GCSE in a language have declined, the number of http://www.dfes.gov.uk/inyourarea pupils in England entered for a GCSE in Mandarin has The information available at constituency level includes increased by some 70 per cent. from 1,444 in 2002 to the number of specialist schools, number of operational 2,448 in 2009. academies, number of teaching assistants and other Finally, we will shortly be beginning a project to support staff, number of teachers and pupil: teacher capture good practice in teaching Mandarin and about ratios. Where information is not available at constituency China, including bringing together in one place existing level it has been provided at local authority level including resources and considering what more might be done to the number of free early education places taken up by promote further teaching of the language and culture three and four-year-olds, number of full-time and part-time of China. entrants to higher education institutions aged 18 to 20, average A level point score per candidate and per entry Members: Correspondence together with percentage of people of working age qualified to at least level 2 and percentage of people of Robert Key: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, working age qualified to level 4 and above. Schools and Families when he plans to reply to Question (a) 312701, (b) 312702 and (c) 312703, on personal, Additional information could be provided only at social, health and economic education, tabled by the disproportionate cost. hon. Member for Salisbury on 19 January 2010. [321296] 373W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 374W

Mr. Coaker [holding answer 9 March 2010]: Figures from the NHS supply chain show that in Parliamentary questions 312702 and 312703 were answered February 2010, 27,205 pupils in Northampton were on 8 March and parliamentary question 312701 was provided with free fruit in school. answered on 9 March. Schools: Admissions National Science and Engineering Week Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many representations (a) he Schools and Families what plans his Department has to and (b) Ministers in his Department have received mark National Science and Engineering Week. [320955] from (i) hon. Members and (ii) local authorities on the number of (1) primary school places in Hertfordshire in Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department is supporting (A) 2008, (B) 2009 and (C) 2010; how many (1) requests the 2010 Big Bang UK YoungScientists’ and Engineers’ for meetings each received from and (2) meetings each Fair which initiates National Science and Engineering had with (x) hon. Members and (y) local authorities on Week and will take place at the Manchester Central the matter; and which local authorities were involved in Convention Complex between 11 and 13 March 2010. each such case; [320825] This Big Bang Fair 2010 celebrates young people’s (2) secondary school places in Hertfordshire in (A) achievement in science and engineering and will host 2008, (B) 2009 and (C) 2010; how many (1) requests for more than 120 interactive activities, exhibitions and live meetings each received from and (2) meetings each had shows as well as incorporating the final of the National with (x) hon. Members and (y) local authorities on the Science and Engineering competition which is open to matter; and which local authorities were involved in schools throughout the UK. each such case. [320826] Pupils: Absenteeism Mr. Coaker: Our records show only one representation Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for made to Ministers since 2008 on the number of primary Children, Schools and Families whether his Department school places in Hertfordshire. In June 2009, Diana provides guidance to magistrates on levels of fines for Johnson met with the hon. Member and the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) to parents of children absent from school. [319355] discuss the provision of places in line with parental Mr. Coaker: The Department for Children, Schools preference. I understand there was discussion around and Families and its predecessors has not issued guidance the lack of primary places in St. Albans although this to magistrates on levels of fines for parents who fail to was not the main focus of the meeting. Representatives secure their child’s attendance at school. were present from the local authority. However, the Department has produced guidance for Our records show only one representation made to educational practitioners: ’Ensuring children’s right to Ministers since 2008 on the number of secondary school education: guidance on the legal measures available to places in Hertfordshire. In July 2009, Mr. Lilley wrote secure regular school attendance’ which is available on setting out his concerns about the lack of secondary teachernet: school places in Hertfordshire. http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/wholeschool/behaviour/ Our records do not show any representations from pcspospns/prosecutions/ local authorities. Pupils: Clothing Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what steps he has taken Mr. Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, to increase the number of school places in St. Albans. Schools and Families what guidance his Department [320854] provides to schools on dress codes. [320827] Mr. Coaker: It is the responsibility of local authorities Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department published to secure a place for every child of statutory school age guidance in October 2007 which provides advice to in their area who needs one. The Department provides schools on how to formulate fair, reasonable, affordable capital to support this duty. From 2008-09 to 2010-11, and inclusive school uniform policies. The guidance can over £1.2 billion of capital funding has been allocated be viewed at: nationally through the Basic Need programme to local http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/management/atoz/u/uniform/ authorities for providing additional places. Basic Need funding is partly allocated on forecasts of growth in School Fruit and Vegetable Scheme: Northampton pupil numbers provided by each authority.Where providing additional places is a local priority, authorities can also Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for use funding from other sources, including receipts, planning Children, Schools and Families how many children in gains and other major schools capital programmes. In Northampton were receiving free fruit in school in the total, from 2008-09 until 2010-11, Hertfordshire has latest period for which figures are available. [321268] been allocated over £90 million of schools capital which could be used to provide additional places where there Ms Diana R. Johnson: Schools are able to participate is need. in the Department of Health’s School Fruit and Vegetable In 2009, as it became apparent that some areas were scheme, which provides key stage 1 pupils in maintained experiencing or expecting exceptionally high increase in primary schools in England with a free piece of fruit or demand for primary pupil places which had been difficult vegetable every day. to forecast, the Department made additional funding 375W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 376W available to support the immediate provision of additional £307,255, over the same period. This was used to fund primary places by 2011 in the areas of highest growth. programmes and activities to promote the talent agenda We have allocated £274 million to 36 authorities. and engage influential networks and organisations across Hertfordshire did not apply for this funding. society to do the same. Schools: Biometrics Teachers: Pay Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many complaints his Department has received on the use of biometric Mr. Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what the average pay data in schools in the last three years. [320123] was of a teacher in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Ms Diana R. Johnson [holding answer 3 March 2010]: Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) England in each The Department for Children, Schools and Families year since 1997. [321114] does not keep a specific record of complaints received on the use of biometric data. However, a search of Mr. Coaker: The information requested is not available correspondence has identified 34 instances of concerns for Jarrow constituency. or objections relating to the use of biometric technologies The following table provides the average salary of in schools in the three years from February 2007. full-time regular qualified teachers in service in local authority maintained schools, March each year, 1997 to Schools: Transport 2008, the latest information available. Average salary of full-time regular qualified teachers in local authority Mr. Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for maintained schools, March each year, 1997 to 2008— South Tyneside Children, Schools and Families to which projects the local authority, North East Government Office region and England funding formerly allocated to the School Transport £ Pathfinder pilots has been assigned. [320140] North East South Tyneside Government Ms Diana R. Johnson: The School Transport Pathfinder local authority office region England Pilots were not taken forward as the bids received from January local authorities were neither comprehensive nor did they give the broad and diverse mix of rural and urban 1997 22,460 22,460 22,920 schemes we were looking for to run meaningful pilots. 1998 23,110 23,060 23,560 1999 24,140 23,980 24,460 The funding allocated to the pilots has been redirected to the Voluntary Aided Private Finance Initiative, 2000 25,190 24,970 25,420 Partnership for Schools, the Office of the Schools 2001 27,130 26,860 27,260 1 Adjudicator, the Travel to School Initiative and School 2002 — 28,210 28,730 Formation and Investment Group funding pressures. 2003 30,340 29,810 30,500 2004 31,540 31,170 31,750 Schools: Visits 2005 33,020 32,420 32,890 2006 34,450 33,470 33,940 Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State 20072 35,550 34,660 35,010 for Children, Schools and Families what guidance his 20082 36,270 35,560 35,940 Department has given to local education authorities 1 Figures are not sufficiently reliable. on visits to schools by (a) hon. Members, (b) 2 Provisional. parliamentary candidates and (c) Cabinet Ministers (i) Notes: 1. Maintained sector only. Teachers in academies (including those within and (ii) outside election purdah periods. [319658] that were previously maintained schools) are not included. 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest £10. Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Secretary of State does Source: not issue guidance to local authorities covering visits to Database of Teacher Records schools. The Cabinet Office issues separate guidance to Truancy Departments on activities during General and local pre-election periods. The 2005 guidance can be found at: Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/cabinetoffice/ Children, Schools and Families how many cases associated propriety_and_ethics/assets/electguide.pdf with parents not ensuring their child attended school were heard in court in (a) 2000, (b) 2004, (c) 2006 and Talent Taskforce: Finance (d) the most recent 12 month period for which figures are available. [318272] Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much his Department spent Mr. Coaker [holding answer 24 February 2010]: on the Talent Taskforce in the latest year for which Information from the Ministry of Justice court proceedings figures are available. [321202] database on the number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts for offences relating to failing to Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Talent and Enterprise attend school in England 2001 to 2008 can be viewed in Taskforce’s programme spend was £3,303,706 for the the following table. Prior to 2001 these offences cannot period 2008-09. The Taskforce’s running costs were be separately identified. 377W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 378W

Number of defendants proceeded against at magistrates courts for offences Tessa Jowell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I 1, 2 relating to ‘failing to attend school’ gave earlier today to the hon. Member for Cardiff, 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 North (Julie Morgan). Proceeded 1,961 3,163 3,849 4,442 4,648 5,999 7,745 9,506 against Census 1 Includes the following: (i) Failure to secure regular attendance at school. (Education Act 1996 S.444 (1)(8)). (ii) Parent knows that their child is failing to attend school regularly and fails Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet without reasonable justification to cause him or her to attend school. (Education Office what the timetable is for the completion of the Act 1996 S.444(8)(1a)(8a) added by Criminal Justice and Court Services Act Beyond 2011 review into the way the Census is conducted; 2000 S.72). 2 Prior to 2001 these offences cannot be separately identified. and what (a) research and (b) representations will be Notes: considered as part of the review. [320731] 1. The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. I have asked the authority to reply. 2. Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated 8 March 2010: from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those asking what the timetable is for the completion of the Beyond data are used. Source: 2011 review into the way the Census is conducted; and what (a) Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. research and (b) representations will be considered as part of the review. (320731) These data are a further breakdown of those published in the Criminal Statistics, Supplementary Volumes for The Beyond 2011 Project was established with the Registrars’ General in Scotland and Northern Ireland to consider options to England and Wales for the years 2001 to 2008. deliver population data for the UK of the required coverage and The increase in the number of cases over this period quality beyond the next Census. It is therefore not reviewing the reflects a sustained drive, led by the Government, to way that the current 2011 Census exercise is conducted, rather it is improve levels of school attendance including by looking at options and their feasibility beyond 2011. encouraging local authorities to make more use of their A detailed work programme is currently being developed to powers to proceed against parents who are failing in enable a decision on a way forward to be taken by 2014. their legal responsibility to ensure their children receive Extensive technical and methodological research is planned. a full time education. The outcome has been a significant This is drawing on internal ONS expertise in population statistics, improvement in school attendance, with on average the use of administrative data, household survey and census 71,800 more children attending school each day in taking, but also uses a number of external experts in the area of 2007/08 than in 2000/01. population statistics to help advise and peer review our work. We are also drawing on the expertise of other countries. The project outputs, including the research on the statistical feasibility and user requirements, will be made publicly available. Formal consultation on options will take place after the 2011 CABINET OFFICE Census, but we have already begun to discuss the issues with stakeholders and have established a website at: Bogus Charity Collections http://www.ons.gov.uk/about-statistics/methodology-and- quality/imps/beyond-2011/index.html 9. Jeff Ennis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Census (England and Wales) Regulations 2010 Office what recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on reducing the number of bogus charity collections. [321246] Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what her timetable is for the (a) laying before Angela E. Smith: The Government believe that this is Parliament and (b) coming into effect of the Census a serious issue because the public give to charities to Regulations. [320714] support their work; not to help bogus collectors make money. On 12 February the ‘Give with Care’ campaign Angela E. Smith: The Census (England) Regulations was re-launched to increase public awareness of bogus 2010 were laid before both Houses on 4 March and will clothing collections, and explain how people can ensure come into force on 31 March. that donations reach the charities that really need them. I have not had any discussions with the Secretary of Central Office of Information: Advertising State for the Home Department but a key partner in this campaign is the Association of Chief Police Officers. Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office if she will place in the Library a copy of the Civil Service Compensation Scheme Central Office of Information’s internal guidance on advertising during election periods. [320729] 10. Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what recent representations she has received on Tessa Jowell: I have asked the chief executive of the changes to the civil service compensation scheme; and Central Office of Information to write to the right hon. if she will make a statement. [321247] Member. 379W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 380W

Letter from Mark Lund, dated 3 March 2010: column 602W, on Government communications, what As Chief Executive of the Central Office of Information the title is of each best practice guidance note and entry (COI), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question published on the Government Communications Network [320729] asking whether COI can provide a copy of any internal intranet in the last 18 months. [320903] guidance on advertising during the election period. The Central Office of Information will adhere to guidance Tessa Jowell: The GCN website makes extensive use issued by the Cabinet Office applicable to advertising during an of community tools (wiki and forums) to allow members election. This guidance will be issued once an election has been to share best practice across all areas of Government called. communications. This detailed information could be Departmental Internet supplied only at disproportionate cost. Hotels Tom Brake: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how much has been spent on employing design Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet consultants for websites operated by her Department in Office pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for each of the last three years. [321235] Ruislip-Northwood of 3 February 2010, Official Report, column 410W, on hotels, what the total number of Ms Butler: It is not possible to separate out design bookings made through the Expotel contract was by costs as these are frequently costed as part of larger the (a) Cabinet Office, (b) Central Office of Information projects. and (c) Charity Commission in 2009; and what number All of the commissioned design work has been utilised and proportion of hotel bookings were not made through and published. the Expotel facility in each such case. [318326] Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Angela E. Smith: All hotel bookings made by Ministers are in accordance with the Ministerial Code. Similarly, Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister for the all hotel bookings made by civil servants are in accordance Cabinet Office how many full-time equivalent staff of with the Civil Service Management Code. each grade are employed by her Department to assist (a) In the period January 2009 to December 2009 (inclusive), special advisers. [321129] 1,676 bookings were made through the Expotel contract by the Cabinet Office. Tessa Jowell: Two civil servants at B1 (EO) and C Ascertaining the number of hotel bookings which (AO) grade support my special advisers. The C (AO) were made outside the Expotel contract would require a grade is employed by DCMS. full interrogation of Government Procurement Card (GPC) records and expenses claims for the specified Futurebuilders England: Consultants period, and would therefore incur disproportionate costs. (b) I will ask the chief executives of the Central Office of Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Information and the Charity Commission to write to the hon. Office how much Futurebuilders has spent on (a) Member. management consultants and (b) management fees. Letter from Mark Lund, dated 3 March 2010: [320725] As Chief Executive of the Central Office of Information (COI), I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question Angela E. Smith: The Cabinet Office pays a fixed [318326] asking for the total number of bookings made through service charge to Futurebuilders for its running costs. the Expotel contract in 2009. The service charge is not broken down into management In the period January 2009 to December 2009 (inclusive), 733 fees and other costs. bookings were made through the Expotel contract by the COI. Futurebuilders England: Grants The number of hotel bookings which were made outside the Expotel contract would require a full interrogation of Government Procurement Card (GPC) records and expenses claims for this Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet period, and would therefore incur disproportionate costs. Office how much and what proportion of total funding Letter from Andrew Hind, dated 23 February 2010: provided to Futurebuilders has been given to charities As the Chief Executive of the Charity Commission, I have in the form of grants since the programme began. been asked to respond to your written Parliamentary Question on [320724] the total number of bookings made through the Expotel contract by the Charity Commission in 2009; and what number and Angela E. Smith: The Futurebuilders Programme is proportion of hotel bookings were not made through the Expotel delivered by Futurebuilders England Ltd, under contract facility in each such case (318326). to the Cabinet Office. Since the programme began, a In the calendar year 2009, the Charity Commission made 962 total of £25.8 million has been given to third sector bookings via Expotel. organisations in grants. This represents 16.7 per cent. of The Commission uses Expotel for the majority of hotel bookings all investment offers. The vast majority of funding but a few are made by alternative means, either using a Government given to third sector organisations is in the form of Procurement Card or a personal credit card. Where Commission staff book their hotel directly, generally when a booking is loans. required at short notice, the cost is subject to a limit of £110 in Government Communications London and £85 elsewhere. To gather information on non-Expotel booked hotel stays would require a manual review of all personal travel and subsistence claims and Government Procurement Card Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet statements for the last year. This could not be undertaken within Office pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for the time available or without incurring a disproportionate cost. Ruislip-Northwood of 5 February 2010, Official Report, I hope this information is helpful. 381W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 382W

Local Endowment Funds for Health £100 million Social Enterprise Investment Fund and £1.3 million for Social Enterprise Action Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Research projects across government. Office with reference to the Prime Minister’s speech at Britain’s Everyday Heroes Book Launch of 24 July 2007, how much funding the Government have provided JUSTICE to local foundations for endowment funds since July Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers 2007. [318356] Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Angela E. Smith: The endowment funding is paid out for Justice how many full-time equivalent staff of each retrospectively to match-fund donations raised in the grade are employed by his Department to assist special local community. advisers. [321139] At the end of September 2009, over £13 million had been received in donations from over 8500 businesses Mr. Straw: There are currently two members of staff and individuals. This has been matched by an additional employed to assist my special advisers: one full-time £11.3 million from Government match-funding, boosting executive officer at band D and one part-time administrative the endowment to over £25 million. This £25 million officer at equivalent band E. will support important local community activity for Health Services: Isle of Man many years to come. Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Population: Greater London Justice if he will examine the matters raised by the Minister for Health and Social Security of the Isle of Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Man Government in Tynwald Court on 15 December Office what the (a) margin and (b) degree of error was 2009 in respect of the response of the Department of in the population estimates in the 2001 Census for (A) Health to written requests for information made by the Slough and (B) each inner London borough. [320727] Isle of Man Government on 7 September 2009, repeated on 15 October and 4 November 2009; what his duties Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls are in respect of mediation between the administrations within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. of the Crown Dependencies and Government departments; I have asked the Authority to reply. A copy of the letter and if he will make a statement. [321493] will be placed in the Libraries of the House. Mr. Wills: The Ministry of Justice is responsible for Social Enterprises the relationship between the UK and the Crown Dependencies and provides the main channel of communication between the UK and the Crown Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Dependencies. Office what assessment she has made of the effects on The termination of the bilateral health agreement social enterprises of the recent recession. [321240] and the matters raised by the Isle of Man Minister for Health and Social Security about bilateral health agreements Tessa Jowell: Data from the sector shows that since are a matter for the Department of Health. There has the economic downturn began 56 per cent. of social been close examination of the issues at ministerial and enterprises saw their turnovers increase compared to officer level in my department and in the Department of just 28 per cent. of SMEs. However, the Government Health. The Isle of Man Chief Minister has discussed recognises that this is a difficult time for some social the issue with the Secretary of State for Health and with enterprises that have experienced an increase in demand Lord Bach. for their services and face pressure as a result of the downturn. The UK has committed to keep the situation under review with the Isle of Man Government in case of any That is why the Government provided a comprehensive unforeseen impacts after the end of the agreement. package of support to the third sector worth nearly £60 million: Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for The £15 million Targeted Support Fund Grants element has Justice what reasons his Department has not replied to provided additional support worth £1.55 million to 64 social the letter from the Isle of Man Government sent in enterprises. 2009 requesting advice on the Isle of Man’s wish to The £17.5 million Hardship Fund has provided grants to 195 negotiate a bilateral health agreement with the Scottish organisations, including social enterprises, to help them deliver Executive; and if he will make a statement. [321494] vital front line services. The £16.5 million Modernisation Fund is helping social enterprises Mr. Wills: I am not aware of a letter from the Isle of become more resilient by facilitating merges, collaborative Man Government requesting advice from the Ministry working and efficiencies. The Modernisation Fund has offered of Justice (MoJ) on the Isle of Man’s wish to negotiate loans of £7.3 million to 40 organisations since April 2009. a bilateral health agreement with the Scottish Executive. And an additional £20 million has been made available I understand that the Isle of Man Department for to social enterprise Community Development Finance Health and Social Security has been in contact with the Institutions through the Enterprise Finance Guarantee Department of Health and with the Scottish Executive scheme. in connection with a new health agreement. This is in addition to Government support for social The development of any agreement between the Isle enterprises-such as the first ever Social Enterprise Strategy of Man and Scotland would, at this stage, be a matter ten years ago, to recent funds such as the Department for their respective administrations. 383W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 384W

Royal Household The number of days that other staff spent on trade union activity within the last year, for which figures are Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for available, is 43,208. The estimated annual total salary Justice whether the Garter Banner uniforms, cost of such activity is £6.5 million. decorations and other related artefacts of Kaiser Wilhelm II which relate to his honorary rank as United Young Offenders: Rape Kingdom Field Marshal and Honorary Colonel-in- Chief of United Kingdom regiments prior to 1914 are Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice in the custody of the Royal Household; and if he will (1) how many offenders of each age group were (a) make a statement. [321126] convicted and (b) cautioned for (i) rape of a child under 13 and (ii) rape of a child under 16 in each of the Mr. Wills: The Garter Banner and other insignia of last three years; [317738] Kaiser Wilhelm II were removed from St. George’s (2) how many offenders aged (a) 17 and under and Chapel, Windsor during the first world war. We have (b) 18 and over were given a caution for rape in each of been unable to ascertain their location. The stall plates the last five years. [317739] of Kaiser Wilhelm II are still in place in St. George’s Chapel. The Royal Collection has confirmed that it Mr. Straw: Information showing the number of offenders holds the Robe and Garter dress of Kaiser Wilhelm II found guilty at all courts and cautioned for offences of as well as two diamond Garter Stars and Badge of rape of a child under 13 and under 16, by age group, Kaiser Wilhelm II. No other uniforms, decorations or England and Wales, from 2006 to 2008 (latest available) related artefacts are held. is shown in tables 1 and 2 as follows. The number of offenders cautioned for rape, by age Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for group, England and Wales, 2004 to 2008 (latest available) Justice whether the uniforms, decorations and other is shown in table 3 as follows. related artefacts of HM King George V which relate to his honorary rank as a German Field Marshall or as Data for 2009 are planned for publication in the Honorary Colonel of German regiments prior to 1914 autumn, 2010. are still in the custody of the Royal Household; and if Guidance on the use of simple cautions is clear that he will make a statement. [321127] they should not be used for serious offences. In the vast majority of serious sexual offences a caution would not Mr. Wills: The Royal Collection holds a number of be appropriate and a prosecution would be in the public items relating to the honorary ranks held by HM King interest. The decision to caution an offender for an George V in the German armed forces. Records show indictable-only offence such as rape will always be taken that uniforms relating to the ranks of Admiral of the by the Crown Prosecution Service. Imperial German Navy, Prussian Field Marshall, Colonel There will, however, always be exceptional cases in in Chief of the 1st Guard Dragoon Regiment and which it would not be in the interest of the victim or the Colonel in Chief of the Kürassier Regiment Graf Getzler public to prosecute, and in these circumstances (Rhine) No. 8 are held. The Royal Collection also holds administering a caution is considered to be preferable a number of decorations: Order of St. Hubert (Bavaria), to taking no further action, and ensures that the offender Order of the Wendish Crown (Mecklenburg), Order of is put on the sexual offenders’ register and can be the Black Eagle (Prussia), Order of the Red Eagle monitored. In some sexual offences cases, for example, (Prussia), Hohenzollern House Order (Prussia), Saxe it may be decided that the age, welfare or mental well-being Ernestine Order (Saxe Coburg), Order of the White Falcon of the victim or offender argues against putting them (Saxe Weimar) and Order of the Rue Crown (Saxony). through a trial. In addition, children below the age of Trade Unions 13 cannot consent to sexual relations in law, and so such cases may be classified as rape even where the offence otherwise has the characteristics of a consenting sexual Mr. Syms: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice relationship. how many staff his Department and its agencies are seconded to trade unions; what facilities are made Table 1: The number of defendants found guilty at all courts for rape1 of a child under 13 and under 16, by age group, England and Wales, available to them; how many days other staff of his 2006-082, 3 Department and its agencies spent on trade union Offence description 2006 2007 20084 activity in the latest year for which figures are available; and what recent estimate he has made of the annual Age 10-17 cost to the public purse of such activity. [320611] Rape of a child under 13 41 44 41 Rape of a child under 16 14 13 21 Mr. Wills: Currently the Ministry has two employees Sub-total 55 57 62 on secondment to the PCS Trade Union and their salaries are reimbursed by the union. No other facilities Age 18 and over are made available to them as they work at Public and Commercial Services (PCS) Headquarters. Rape of a child under 13 76 84 133 Rape of a child under 16 220 246 234 Facilities Agreements between the Ministry of Justice and the Trade Union Sides follow the provisions of the Sub-total 296 330 367 Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 and the ACAS Code of Practice ″Time off for All ages Trade Union Duties and Activities″ available at: Rape of a child under 13 117 128 174 http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=2391 Rape of a child under 16 234 259 255 385W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 386W

Table 1: The number of defendants found guilty at all courts for rape1 Table 3: The number of offenders cautioned1, 2 for rape3, England and of a child under 13 and under 16, by age group, England and Wales, Wales, 2004-084 2006-082, 3 Age group 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Offence description 2006 2007 20084 Age10to172017132526 Age18andover163679 Total 351 387 429 All ages 36 20 19 32 35 1 The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences 1 Excludes attempted rape. were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a 2 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the defendant has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant time the principal offence is the more serious offence. has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is 2 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These figures have been the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most included in the totals. severe. 3 Excludes attempted rape. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by police forces and the courts. As a consequence, care should be taken police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into taken into account when those data are used. account when those data are used. 4 Excludes convictions for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July Source: and August 2008. Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice Table 2: The number of offenders cautioned1, 2 for rape3 of a child under 13 and under 16, by age group, England and Wales, 2006-084 BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Offence description 2006 2007 2008 Business Age 10-17 Rape of a child under 13 12 23 22 Tim Farron: To ask the Minister of State, Department Rape of a child under 16 1 2 4 for Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what Sub-total 13 25 26 proportion of businesses have employed (a) fewer than five people, (b) between five and 10 people, (c) between 10 and 20 people, (d) between 20 and 40 people, (e) Age 18 and over between 40 and 70 people, (f) 70 people or more in (i) Rape of a child under 13 — 2 1 rural areas, (ii) urban areas and (iii) nationally in each Rape of a child under 16 — 3 5 year since 1997. [318297] Sub-total — 5 6 Ms Rosie Winterton: Estimates of the total number All ages and percentage of businesses in the UK by employment 1 Rape of a child under 13 12 25 23 band between 1997 and 2008 is shown in Table 1 . Rape of a child under 16 1 5 9 Estimates broken down by rural and urban areas are not available for all UK businesses. However Table 2 Total 13 30 32 1 shows estimates for businesses registered for either VAT The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences 2 3 were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a and/or PAYE between 2006 and 2008 . defendant has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same 1 Based on the start of the year and sourced from the publication time the principal offence is the more serious offence. ‘Small and Medium Sized Enterprise Statistics for the UK and 2 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force Regions’, produced by the Department for Business Innovation nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and and Skills. It is not possible to provide the information in the replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These figures have been precise employee categories specified in the question. included in the totals. 2 3 Excludes attempted rape. Based on the start of the year and information taken from the 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate Office for National Statistics ‘Inter Departmental Business Register’ and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have (IDBR). been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by 3 Data before 2006 is not available for businesses registered for police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data either VAT and/or PAYE for urban and rural areas. collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. The number of UK businesses overall in all employee Source: categories has increased by 1,076,000 (29 per cent.) Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. between 1997 and 2008.

Table 1: Number and percentage of businesses by employee band for the UK private sector (1997 to 2008) Number of 100 or TotalinUK employees Less than 5 5 to 9 10 to 19 20 to 49 50 to 99 more private sector

1997 Number of 3,326,810 191,755 107,395 49,980 15,415 16,340 3,707,695 businesses Percentage of 89.7 5.2 2.9 1.3 0.4 0.4 100.0 businesses

1998 Number of 3,262,230 204,290 111,800 48,300 14,945 16,325 3,657,885 businesses 387W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 388W

Table 1: Number and percentage of businesses by employee band for the UK private sector (1997 to 2008) Number of 100 or TotalinUK employees Less than 5 5 to 9 10 to 19 20 to 49 50 to 99 more private sector

Percentage of 89.2 5.6 3.1 1.3 0.4 0.4 100.0 businesses

1999 Number of 3,287,955 201,835 109,280 46,955 14,450 16,470 3,676,940 businesses Percentage of 89.4 5.5 3.0 1.3 0.4 0.4 100.0 businesses

2000 Number of 3,330,460 206,090 108,075 46,155 15,700 16,130 3,722,610 businesses Percentage of 89.5 5.5 2.9 1.2 0.4 0.4 100.0 businesses

2001 Number of 3,344,050 200,320 112,695 54,845 18,130 16,300 3,746,340 businesses Percentage of 89.3 5.3 3.0 1.5 0.5 0.4 100.0 businesses

2002 Number of 3,390,720 206,135 113,580 53,440 18,020 15,830 3,797,725 businesses Percentage of 89.3 5.4 3.0 1.4 0.5 0.4 100.0 businesses

2003 Number of 3,625,825 202,965 105,845 54,800 16,230 15,720 4,021,390 businesses Percentage of 90.2 5.0 2.6 1.4 0.4 0.4 100.0 businesses

2004 Number of 3,885,620 205,855 104,190 55,390 16,500 15,290 4,282,845 businesses Percentage of 90.7 4.8 2.4 1.3 0.4 0.4 100.0 businesses

2005 Number of 3,941,300 207,225 106,020 54,955 17,160 15,380 4,342,045 businesses Percentage of 90.8 4.8 2.4 1.3 0.4 0.4 100.0 businesses

2006 Number of 4,062,990 205,260 110,050 55,930 17,090 15,380 4,466,700 businesses Percentage of 91.0 4.6 2.5 1.3 0.4 0.3 100.0 businesses

2007 Number of 4,272,060 207,595 111,165 55,655 17,145 15,465 4,679,080 businesses Percentage of 91.3 4.4 2.4 1.2 0.4 0.3 100.0 businesses

2008 Number of 4,354,905 223,585 116,645 55,415 17,105 15,630 4,783,285 businesses Percentage of 91.0 4.7 2.4 1.2 0.4 0.3 100.0 businesses Source: ‘Small and Medium Sized Enterprises for the UK and Regions’—Department for Business Innovation and Skills Table 2: Number of businesses registered for either VAT and/or PAYE by employee size band and urban/rural area (2006 to 2008) Year (start Number of TotalinUK of) employees Less than 5 5 to 9 10 to 19 20 to 39 40 to 69 70 and over private sector

2006 Urban 1,125,865 148,985 82,170 34,855 15,050 18,535 1,425,460 Rural 584,500 56,275 27,880 11,185 4,475 4,295 688,610 Total 1,710,365 205,260 110,050 46,040 19,525 22,830 2,114,070

2007 Urban 1,127,625 149,360 82,420 34,755 14,870 18,675 1,427,705 389W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 390W

Table 2: Number of businesses registered for either VAT and/or PAYE by employee size band and urban/rural area (2006 to 2008) Year (start Number of TotalinUK of) employees Less than 5 5 to 9 10 to 19 20 to 39 40 to 69 70 and over private sector

Rural 581,560 58,235 28,745 11,115 4,495 4,350 688,500 Total 1,709,185 207,595 111,165 45,870 19,365 23,025 2,116,205

2008 Urban 1,180,290 160,635 86,335 34,235 14,890 18,670 1,495,055 Rural 591,240 62,950 30,310 11,360 4,525 4,465 704,850 Total 1,771,530 223,585 116,645 45,595 19,415 23,135 2,199,905 Source: Data extracted from the Inter Departmental Business Register (IDBR)—Office for National Statistics

This VAT/PAYE data under-estimates the number of Additional information is also provided showing the businesses in the smaller employment size categories, number of annual registrations, de-registrations and the since it excludes those businesses that are not employers total number of VAT registered businesses by urban/rural or are too small to register for VAT. area2 at the start of each year (1997 to 2007) and shown in Table 2. Tim Farron: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what The total stock of VAT registered businesses in the proportion of businesses were registered for VAT in (a) UK increased by 396,000 (24 per cent.) between 1997 rural areas, (b) urban areas and (c) nationally on each and 2008. year since 1997; and how many businesses were de-registered 1 Sourced from the BIS publications ‘Business Start-ups and for VAT in each case in each such year. [318298] Closures: VAT Registrations and De-registrations’ and ‘Small and Medium Sized Enterprises for the UK and Regions’. Ms Rosie Winterton: Estimates of the number and proportions of annual VAT registrations, de-registrations 2 Figures were taken from the inter departmental business register and the total number of VAT registered1 businesses (IDBR) produced by the Office for National Statistics. They are (stock) at the start of each year (1997-2007) in the UK, not directly comparable with those shown in Table 1. is shown in Table 1.

Table 1: Number of VAT registrations, de-registrations, total number of VAT registered businesses and percentage of Total UK private sector that are VAT Registered (1997-2008) Total number of UK VAT registered businesses Total number of VAT private sector as a percentage off UK Number of new Number of new VAT registered businesses businesses (start of total private sector (start of VAT registrations de-registrations (start of the year) the year) the year)

1997 181,530 140,850 1,635,385 3,707,695 44.1 1998 180,740 139,800 1,676,065 3,657,885 45.8 1999 175,615 143,055 1,717,005 3,676,940 46.7 2000 177,770 147,700 1,749,570 3,722,610 47.0 2001 169,230 147,525 1,779,640 3,746,370 47.5 2002 176,205 154,040 1,801,345 3,797,725 47.4 2003 191,535 153,455 1,823,510 4,021,390 45.3 2004 184,010 149,695 1,861,590 4,282,845 43.5 2005 182,380 142,830 1,895,900 4,342,045 43.7 2006 182,055 144,285 1,935,450 4,466,700 43.3 2007 205,725 147,800 1,973,220 4,679,080 42.2 2008 n/a n/a 2,031,145 4,783,285 42.5 Source: ‘Business start-ups and closures: VAT registrations and de-registrations’ and ‘small and medium sized enterprise statistics for the UK and regions’—Department for Business Innovation and Skills. Table 2: Number of VAT registrations, de-registrations and total number of VAT registered businesses by urban/rural area (1997-2008) Total number of Total number of Number of urban based VAT rural based VAT Number of urban Number of rural urban based new Number of rural registered registered based new VAT based new VAT VA T based new VAT businesses (start of businesses (start of Year registrations registrations de-registrations de-registrations the year) the year)

1997 135,990 46,730 107,610 36,950 1,082,730 556,170 1998 136,980 45,300 109,025 35,760 1,111,110 565,950 1999 132,895 44,430 112,235 37,185 1,139,070 575,490 2000 134,315 45,450 117,135 38,480 1,159,725 582,735 2001 127,395 43,630 118,160 38,650 1,176,905 589,705 2002 130,310 46,645 127,005 43,285 1,186,140 594,685 2003 141,045 50,395 126,190 44,150 1,189,445 598,045 391W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 392W

Table 2: Number of VAT registrations, de-registrations and total number of VAT registered businesses by urban/rural area (1997-2008) Total number of Total number of Number of urban based VAT rural based VAT Number of urban Number of rural urban based new Number of rural registered registered based new VAT based new VAT VA T based new VAT businesses (start of businesses (start of Year registrations registrations de-registrations de-registrations the year) the year)

2004 134,865 47,550 123,330 42,260 1,204,300 604,290 2005 131,740 46,740 120,125 42,515 1,215,835 609,575 2006 128,850 45,485 126,425 45,720 1,227,450 613,805 2007 136,760 46,175 130,690 48,855 1,229,870 613,570 2008 n/a n/a n/a n/a 1,235,940 610,890 Source: Data extracted from the inter departmental business register (IDBR)—Office for National Statistics.

Business: Government Assistance Ms Rosie Winterton: To date there have been 1,013 applications for funding under the Capital for Enterprise Fund with a value of £1,179.3 million. Pete Wishart: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how There have been 76 applications in Scotland with a many times the panel established to monitor lending to value of £100.8 million. small businesses has met since 1 November 2008. [317253] Business: Salford

Ms Rosie Winterton: Since the Monitoring Panel was Hazel Blears: To ask the Minister of State, established in November 2008, officials from BIS, HMT Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what and the Bank of England have continued to meet on a (a) small business start-up schemes and (b) other monthly basis to monitor lending to small businesses. assistance schemes are available to assist businesses in The key findings from these meetings are reported at Salford constituency. [317733] the Small Business Finance Forum. Ms Rosie Winterton: The Enterprise Finance Guarantee (EFG) is a facility for additional lending to viable David Mundell: To ask the Minister of State, SMEs who sit on the margins of commercial lending Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how decisions due to lack of security or track record. It much funding has been disbursed to businesses from enables loan facilities of between £1,000 and £1 million, the Capital for Enterprise Fund to date; and how much to SMEs with a turnover of up to £25 million. EFG such funding has been disbursed to companies may be used to enable new terms loans, refinancing of registered in Scotland. [318370] existing term loans, overdraft conversion, guarantees on invoice facilities, and guarantees on new or increased Ms Rosie Winterton: To date there have been 23 overdraft borrowing. Businesses are advised to approach investments from the Capital for Enterprise Fund (CfEF) one or more of the 44 approved EFG lenders, which with a value of £33.8. million. A further five businesses includes the main UK high street banks to discuss their have accepted the terms offered by the CfEF with a lending needs. However, all decisions on individual value of £9.1 million and await final due diligence and lending are at the discretion of the lender. Further completion. details on EFG are on the BIS website: There have been five investments made in Scotland http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/enterprise/finance/efg/ with a value of £6.8 million. page37607.html As of 10 February 2010, 12 businesses in the Salford David Mundell: To ask the Minister of State, constituency have been offered EFG loans totalling Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how £1.3 million. many applications for funding under the Capital for Enterprise Fund have been approved to date; and how Companies: Registration many such applications have been made by companies registered in Scotland. [318371] Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills for Ms Rosie Winterton: Out of the applications received what reason the filing times for accounts at Companies to date there have been 23 investments from the Capital House for limited companies has been changed from 10 for Enterprise fund with a value of £33.8 million. months after the accounting year end to nine months; and if he will make a statement. [321411] There have been five applications leading to investment made in Scotland with a value of £6.8 million. Ian Lucas: The reduction of one month in filing times was effected for all companies as part of the modernisation David Mundell: To ask the Minister of State, of the accounting regulations to reflect the fact that Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how companies could now report electronically and as a way many applications for funding from the Capital for of providing information to interested parties on a Enterprise Fund have been received to date; and how more timely basis but without imposing undue burdens. many of such applications were from companies In the case of both large and small company accounting registered in Scotland. [318436] regulations, there was no opposition to this change. 393W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 394W

Departmental Accountancy Letter from Stephen Speed, dated 10 March 2010: The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister of State, Department and Skills has asked me to reply to your question “how much consultants employed by his Department and its agencies have for Business, Innovation and Skills whether any written been paid (a) in total and (b) in reimbursable expenses since its instructions have been provided to the accounting inception”. officer for his Department and its predecessors in The Insolvency Service has employed consultants since the accordance with paragraph 5.5 of the ministerial code inception of The Department for Business Innovation and Skills since May 1997. [315314] in the period from June 2009 to 31 December 2009, at a cost of £29,546. There were no reimbursable expenses. Mr. McFadden: Written instructions to the BIS accounting officer and his predecessors under paragraph Departmental Internet 5.5 of the ministerial code (called an accounting officer direction) have been issued on nine occasions since Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister of State, Department May 1997. for Business, Innovation and Skills how many designs for its website his Department and its predecessors Departmental Consultants have commissioned since 2005. [318659]

Julia Goldsworthy: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. McFadden: The Department and its predecessors Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how have commissioned five website designs since 2005. much consultants employed by his Department and its The Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) website agencies have been paid (a) in total and (b) in was redesigned in 2006 and again in 2008 to reflect the reimbursable expenses since its inception. [314001] newly created Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR). An interim website design Mr. McFadden: Central records indicate that the was commissioned for the Department for Innovation, Department paid a total of £6,354,203 in consultancy Universities and Skills (DIUS) in June 2007. This design fees since its inception (announced on 5 June 2009) to was updated in March 2009. Designs were commissioned 31 December 2009. for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) website in July 2009. The current BIS website is I have approached the Chief Executives of the Insolvency an interim site, based on these designs and was developed Service, Companies House, the National Measurement in house. The revised BIS website will go live in March Office and the Intellectual Property Office and they will 2010. respond to hon. Member directly. Further details, regarding reimbursable expenses, are Insolvency: Essex not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department Letter from Gareth Jones, dated 28 January 2010: for Business, Innovation and Skills how many I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary businesses employing fewer than 50 people were Question tabled 25 January 2010, UIN 314001, to the Minister of declared insolvent in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point State for Business, Innovation and Skills. constituency in (i) each of the last 12 months and (ii) Companies House has paid consultants a total £95,525 since each of the last five years. [321443] the inception of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in June 2009 and £8,417 of that amount was in reimbursable expenses. Ian Lucas: Official Statistics covering corporate insolvencies are not currently available at a sub-national Letter from Sean Dennehey, dated 27 January 2010: level within England and Wales. I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office Additionally, the number of employees from which to your Parliamentary Question tabled 25 January 2010, to the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and small businesses may be identified is not recorded on Skills. the source datasets. The Intellectual Property Office became an Executive Agency Self-employed traders may be declared bankrupt (or of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on 5 June enter into an individual voluntary arrangement (IVA)), 2009. Since that time it has spent £48,000 on consultants; this and the table shows the available information for each figure includes £14,000 in reimbursable expenses. of the last five years. Letter from Peter Mason, dated 23 February 2010: Bankruptcies among sole traders I am responding in respect of the National Measurement Area1 Office to your Parliamentary Question asking the Minister of Essex Castle Point State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, how much consultants employed by his Department and its agencies have 2004 316 14 been paid (a) in total and (b) in reimbursable expenses since its 2005 233 11 inception. 2006 306 13 The National Measurement Office became an Executive Agency 2007 308 16 of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills when it 2008 303 14 was established on 5 June 2009. Our records indicate that since 1 Where bankrupt has provided a valid postcode (94.5 per cent. in that date we have paid £159,361 to external consultants (using the 2004 to 96.9 per cent. in 2008). OGC definition of those who supply advice related to the Agency’s strategy, structure, management or operations). The reimbursable Figures for 2009 are not currently available. Nor are expenses of such consultants are not separately identified in our equivalent figures for IVAs. Monthly statistics are not accounting system. maintained. 395W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 396W

Maternity Leave: Greater Manchester Mr. Timms: The Government supported basic work to underpin the development of technical standards for Tony Lloyd: To ask the Minister of State, Department assessing the specific absorption rate (SAR) from mobile for Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what phones, including several projects in the late 1990s. percentage of women resident in the City of Manchester More recently, the Government have supported work have taken one or more periods of 26 weeks maternity through the Mobile Telecommunications and Health leave since 1997. [320874] Research programme, and information about this programme is available on its website: Mr. McFadden [holding answer 8 March 2010]: From www.mthr.org.uk April 2007 all employed mothers are entitled to 52 The Department looks to the Health Protection Agency weeks maternity leave, of which 39 may be paid. Employers (HPA) to advise on appropriate standards for protection are not required to record or report the uptake of from exposure to the radio waves from mobile phones. maternity leave to the Government. HPA advice is that the guidelines of the International The most recent estimates of take-up of maternity Commission on non-ionizing radiation protection leave are based on the DWP “Maternity Rights and (ICNIRP) should be adopted in the UK. Mothers’ employment decisions in Britain: Survey of Advice on the availability of SAR values from mobile Mothers” (2007). In 2006, when the mothers included phones was given in the May 2000 report from the in the study went on maternity leave, the statutory Independent Expert Group on Mobile Phones (Stewart entitlement to ordinary maternity leave (OML) was 26 Report) and an update was given in the Mobile Phones weeks, while mothers who had worked for their employer and Health 2004 Report from NRPB (now merged into for a qualifying period of 26 weeks were also entitled to the Health protection Agency). additional maternity leave (AML) of 26 weeks. The Office for National Statistics estimates that in 2006 In addition, the UK’s five mobile network operators, there were 7,268 live births to women in the Manchester. namely Orange, T-Mobile, 3 UK, 02 and Vodafone, The employment rate for women of working age (16 to have resources within their customer service departments 59) in Manchester in 2006 was 58.5 per cent. to provide information and advice to users regarding specific absorption rate (SAR) values on handsets. For mothers in Great Britain taking maternity leave in 2006: Information about SAR values is available on manufacturers’ websites and also on the mobile 84 per cent. took 26 weeks or more maternity leave; manufacturers forum (MMF) website: 35 per cent. took exactly 26 weeks maternity leave; www.mmfai.org 46 per cent. of mothers took between 27 and 52 weeks and 3 per cent. were off for more than 52 weeks. 16 per cent. of mothers took less than the statutory minimum National Investment Corporation entitlement (ie 26 weeks in 2006) The next “Maternity Rights” survey will be based on Adam Afriyie: To ask the Minister of State, Department mothers who took maternity leave starting in summer for Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Department 2008. It is due to report later in 2010. The “Maternity sought any external legal and financial advice in relation Rights” survey sample is not large enough to produce to negotiations with (a) retail and (b) investment banks robust estimates at constituency or county levels. on the proposed National Investment Corporation. [318902] Met Office Ms Rosie Winterton: The Department sought external John Thurso: To ask the Minister of State, Department advice on possible fund and investment structures before for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has had discussions with both retail and investment banks. The recent discussions with the Secretary of State for Defence Department is continuing to seek advice as negotiations on the future of the Met Office. [321359] continue.

Mr. McFadden: My Noble Friend the Secretary of Public Sector: Billing State has not had any recent discussions with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence on the future of the Met Office. Mr. Binley: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) Mobile Phones: Health Hazards Government departments, (b) local authorities, (c) primary care trusts, (d) educational institutions and Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, (e) Government agencies have signed up to his Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) Department’s Prompt Payment Code. [317705] what studies his Department has carried out on the specific absorption rate of mobile telephones; [321408] Ms Rosie Winterton: The Institute of Credit Management (2) for what reasons the maximum specific developed and operates the Prompt Payment Code. As absorption rate for mobile telephone radiation has of 12 February 2010, 22 Government Departments, 145 been set at 2W/kg; and if he will consider the merits of local authorities, 249 NHS bodies and 36 other bodies reducing it to 1.6W/kg; [321409] (which include educational institutions and Government agencies) were signatories to the code. (3) if he will introduce regulations requiring mobile telephone manufacturers to display prominently and The latest list of signatories is provided on the ICM advertise the specific absorption rate of radiation website and can be viewed via the following link: energy for each model they manufacture. [321410] http://212.36.97.5/ppc/signatory.a4d?uid=634062674 397W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 398W

Public Sector: Procurement Students: Newcastle upon Tyne

Jim Cousins: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Binley: To ask the Minister of State, Department Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he many students received non-repayable maintenance has made of the number of small businesses which grants from Newcastle City Council in each year since have contracts with (a) Government departments, (b) 2004-05; what the average grant received by such local authorities, (c) primary care trusts, (d) education students was in each such year; how much was awarded institutions and (e) Government agencies. [317704] in total in each such year; and how many and what proportion of those in receipt received a partial award Ms Rosie Winterton: The Department does not hold as a result of means testing. [320710] the information requested and an estimate could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Lammy: The information is shown in the tables.

Grants for maintenance - Newcastle-upon-Tyne Local Authority1 Academic Year Grant Total

2004-05 HE Grant Applicants (number) 590 Award Amount (£) 510,000 Average (£) 860 2005-06 HE Grant Applicants (number) 1,050 Award Amount (£) 940,000 Average (£) 900 2006-07 HE Grant Applicants (number) 820 Award Amount (£) 750,000 Average (£) 910 Maintenance Grant2 Applicants (number) 940 Award Amount (£) 2,000,000 Average (£) 2,130 2007-08 HE Grant Applicants (number) 490 Award Amount (£) 440,000 Average (£) 890 Maintenance Grant2 Applicants (number) 1,690 Award Amount (£) 3,670,000 Average (£) 2,170 2008-09 HE Grant Applicants (number) 140 Award Amount (£) 130,000 Average (£) 890 Maintenance Grant2 Applicants (number) 2,520 Award Amount (£) 5,620,000 Average (£) 2,230 1 Table covers approved applicants awarded a grant, amounts show award entitlement amounts. Applicant figures rounded to nearest 10, award amounts to nearest £10,000, averages to nearest £10 2 Maintenance Grant includes Special Support Grant Source: Student Loans Company Full and Partial grants for maintenance - Newcastle-Upon-Tyne Local Authority1 Academic Year Grant Applicants Percentage of those awarded a grant Full Grant Partial grant Total Full Grant Partial grant Total

2004-05 HE Grant 500 90 590 85 15 100 2005-06 HE Grant 900 140 1,050 86 14 100 2006-07 HE Grant 710 110 820 87 13 100 Maintenance 600 340 940 64 36 100 Grant2 2007-08 HE Grant 420 70 490 86 14 100 Maintenance 1,120 570 1,690 66 34 100 Grant2 2008-09 HE Grant 120 20 140 85 15 100 399W Written Answers10 MARCH 2010 Written Answers 400W

Full and Partial grants for maintenance - Newcastle-Upon-Tyne Local Authority1 Academic Year Grant Applicants Percentage of those awarded a grant Full Grant Partial grant Total Full Grant Partial grant Total

Maintenance 1,660 860 2,520 66 34 100 Grant2 1 Table covers approved applicants awarded a grant. Numbers are rounded to nearest 10 so components may not sum to totals 2 Maintenance Grant includes Special Support Grant Source: Student Loans Company

5MC Ministerial Corrections10 MARCH 2010 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

Ministerial Correction Reason why not yet Section Description in force

Wednesday 10 March 2010 14 and Schedule 3 Boundary Committees, Transfer of JUSTICE Functions of Boundary Political Parties Commissions Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State 17 Transfer of property etc of for Justice which provisions of the (a) Political Parties, Boundary Elections and Referendums Act 2000, (b) Electoral Commissions Administration Act 2006 and (c) Political Parties and Elections Act 2009 have not yet commenced; and for Schedule 21, Minor and Will be commenced what reasons in each case. [319612] paragraph 6(3), consequential at an appropriate [Official Report, 3 March 2010, Vol. 506, c. 1246-1251W.] 6(4), 6(7)(l)(a), 7 amendments time taking account Letter of correction from Mr. Michael Wills: of status of accounts from An error has been identified in the written answer previous elections given to the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) and allowing time on 3 March 2010. It relates to the reason why the for other changes provisions on the disposal of election documents in contained in the Scotland are not yet in force. The original answer said EAA 2006 to bed in the provisions were planned for commencement with effect from 1 July 2010. Electoral The correct full answer should have been: Administration Act 2006 Mr. Wills: I have provided a table which gives detail 1(2) and (5), 2(2), CORE scheme The CORE project of the provisions that have not yet commenced, and the (4)(9)-(12),5(10),7 has been paused to reasons for that, for the (a) Political Parties, Elections allow policy on and Referendums Act 2000, (b) Electoral Administration individual electoral Act 2006 and (c) Political Parties and Elections Act 2009. registration to develop first (individual Reason why not yet registration may Section Description in force change the requirements for Political Parties, CORE and the Elections and context in which it Referendums Act is developed) 2000 6(l)(c) Review of electoral The Government and political accepted the 31(4) (as it relates Replacement of Section 31 is matters recommendation of to rule37(1)(d) counterfoils commenced, except (redistribution of the Committee on schedule1tothe (procedure on close to the extent that it Parliamentary seats) Standards in Public Representation of of poll) relates to Life’s Eleventh the People Act sub-paragraph (d) Report, ‘Review of 1983) of paragraph (1) of the Electoral rule 37 of the Commission’, that parliamentary the Electoral election rules, which Commission should remains under no longer have any consideration involvement in electoral boundary matters and the 42-44 (as they relate Control of Section 41 was provisions in to local government documents after commenced PPERA to allow elections and parliamentary 1 January 2007. the transfer of authority elections election; access to boundary setting as defined in election documents functions to the section 203 of the Commission should Representation of be repealed. the People Act Subsequently, the 1983) Local Democracy, Policy changes in Economic relation to election Development and documents in Construction Act Scotland, and 2009 repealed these secondary provisions and legislation, mean removes from the the commencement Electoral of sections 42 to 44 Commission is, for the time functions relating to being, unnecessary boundary and electoral changes 7MC Ministerial Corrections10 MARCH 2010 Ministerial Corrections 8MC

Reason why not yet Reason why not yet Section Description in force Section Description in force

59 Reporting Commenced 1 July 9-11 and Schedules Declaration as to As set out in the donations to 2009 (so far as 3 and 4 source of donation; written ministerial holders of certain relates to a Member Non-resident statement of elective offices of the House of donors etc; 24 November 2009, Commons). Non-resident Official Report, Otherwise under lenders etc. columns 68-70’WS: consideration “Officials have begun preliminary 61(1)(2-4)(5)(6) Regulation of loans Commenced work on the etc. 11 September 2006 prerequisites to (England, Wales, implementation of Scotland); 1 these provisions. January 2007 However, as stated (England, Wales, during Scotland); 1 July consideration of 2008 (Northern Lords Amendments Ireland) except so to the Bill, we are far as applies to practically unable minor parties to commence within meaning of Sections 10 and 11 PPERA 2000 s160. before the summer The position of of 2010 due to their minor parties (i.e. complex nature. those which do not Section 9, which seek to field requires donors to candidates in provide declarations parliamentary or as to the true local authority origins of all elections) remains donations of over under review £7,500, will be commenced alongside Sections 10and11toensure Schedule 1, Part 5, Amendments Remains under consistency in (75(1) amended rule (Signing in Polling consideration in approach, which 37 of the stations) particular in the will be welcomed by parliamentary rules context of wider those who make set out in Schedule reforms to electoral political donations, 1tothe registration as well as parties Representation of and other recipients the People Act who will have to 1983) ensure that they comply with the additional Political Parties and declaration Elections Act 2009 requirement.” 1(2),2,3(1),(3),(4),8, Compliance with The Electoral Schedules 1 and 2 controls imposed by Commission’s new the 2000 Act etc; powers will be Investigatory commenced with 25 Disposal of election This provision must powers of effect from 1 July documents in be commenced at Commission; Civil 2010. A statutory Scotland the same time as Sanctions; instrument the consequential Education about supporting the civil amending systems of sanctioning powers regulations which government and must be approved are yet to be EU institutions before section 3 and approved by the schedule 2 can be House of Lords commenced andmadebythe Minister.

6 Number of The Speaker’s Electoral Committee is 27 Returning officers The intention is to Commissioners considering for elections to the commence this proposed European provision in due nominated Parliament course in time for Commissioners implementation from party leaders. ahead of the next The provision will scheduled European be commenced once Parliamentary the appointment elections in 2014 process is complete 9MC Ministerial Corrections10 MARCH 2010 Ministerial Corrections 10MC

Reason why not yet Reason why not yet Section Description in force Section Description in force

28-29 CORE keeper The CORE project has been paused to A project has been allow policy on established to individual electoral design and registration to implement develop first processes for the (individual collection and registration may storage of personal change the identifiers in the requirements for voluntary phase of CORE and the individual electoral context in which it registration. is developed)

30, 31, 35, 36 Electoral The timetable for registration: the introduction of 32(1)-(5)(7)-(11) Report by Electoral This section can Voluntary provision individual electoral Commission on only be commenced of identifying registration remains provision of once sections 30 information; as set out during identifying and31havecome Regulations the parliamentary information into force amending or passage of the supplementing Political Parties and section 30; Schemes Elections Act 2009. for provision of During Commons data to registration Consideration of officers; Schemes Lords Amendments 33 and 34 Obligatory The commencement under section 35: on 13 July 2009, provision of of this section is proposals, Official Report, identifying linked to the annual consultation and column 99, Michael information (and reports produced by evaluation Wills said: provision the Electoral supplementing 33) Commission under “Our approach to section 32. Upon a individual positive registration is to recommendation move in two phases: beingmadebythe a voluntary phase Electoral and a compulsory Commission in phase…The 2014 the voluntary phase will commencement of not commence sections 33 and 34 before July will need to be 2010...and will not debated and finish before 2014. approved by both That period will Houses. enable us to be fully confident that the system is ready before we move to the compulsory Minor and The commencement phase...It will consequential of relevant minor enable us to prepare amendments and consequential the public for the amendments is change, and to take dependant on steps to bolster commencement of registration rates in other sections of the meantime. That the Act and will be will be fundamental brought forward as to protecting the appropriate system against the risk of a drop in the numbers Repeals registered.”

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 10 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 279 CABINET OFFICE—continued Cabinet Meeting (Durham)...... 281 Music Licensing Levies...... 279 Civil Service Compensation Scheme ...... 283 Voting Age ...... 281 Departmental Carbon Dioxide Emissions...... 284 Grassroots Grants...... 285 ICT (External Consultants) ...... 287 PRIME MINISTER ...... 288 List of Ministerial Responsibilities ...... 282 Engagements...... 288 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 10 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 13WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 18WS EU Competitiveness Council...... 13WS Prison Service Pay Review Body (Northern Ireland) ...... 18WS DEFENCE...... 14WS Armed Forces Pay Review Body (2010 Report)...... 14WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 18WS Service Complaints Commissioner’s Second Review Body on Senior Salaries (32nd Report)...... 18WS Annual Report...... 15WS TRANSPORT ...... 19WS Marine Aids and Light Dues ...... 19WS HEALTH...... 15WS Doctors’ and Dentists’ Remuneration (Review TREASURY ...... 14WS Body Report) ...... 16WS Budget Statement...... 14WS Meat Hygiene Service...... 15WS WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 21WS JUSTICE...... 17WS Government’s response to the Speaker’s Prison Service Pay Review Body (Ninth Report).... 17WS Conference...... 21WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 10 March 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 386W CABINET OFFICE—continued Business ...... 386W Hotels ...... 380W Business: Government Assistance ...... 391W Local Endowment Funds...... 381W Business: Salford...... 392W Population: Greater London...... 381W Companies: Registration...... 392W Social Enterprises...... 381W Departmental Accountancy ...... 393W Departmental Consultants...... 393W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 364W Departmental Internet ...... 394W Children: Databases...... 364W Insolvency: Essex ...... 394W Class Sizes: Greater London ...... 365W Maternity Leave: Greater Manchester...... 395W Classroom Assistants ...... 365W Met Office...... 395W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 366W Mobile Phones: Health Hazards ...... 395W Departmental Paper...... 367W National Investment Corporation...... 396W Departmental Pay ...... 368W Public Sector: Billing...... 396W Education: International Cooperation ...... 369W Public Sector: Procurement...... 397W Gifted Children: Poole ...... 369W Students: Newcastle upon Tyne ...... 398W Grimsby...... 369W Illegal Immigrants...... 372W CABINET OFFICE...... 377W Languages: Secondary Education ...... 372W Bogus Charity Collections ...... 377W Members: Correspondence ...... 372W Census ...... 378W National Science and Engineering Week...... 373W Census (England and Wales) Regulations 2010 ...... 378W Pupils: Absenteeism ...... 373W Central Office of Information: Advertising...... 378W Pupils: Clothing ...... 373W Civil Service Compensation Scheme ...... 377W School Fruit and Vegetable Scheme: Departmental Internet ...... 379W Northampton...... 373W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 379W Schools: Admissions ...... 374W Futurebuilders England: Consultants ...... 379W Schools: Biometrics...... 375W Futurebuilders England: Grants ...... 379W Schools: Transport ...... 375W Government Communications ...... 379W Schools: Visits...... 375W Col. No. Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Talent Taskforce: Finance ...... 375W Departmental Theft ...... 360W Teachers: Pay ...... 376W Emergency Calls: Hoaxes and False Alarms ...... 360W Truancy...... 376W Entry Clearances: Fraud ...... 361W Identity Cards ...... 361W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 312W Illegal Immigrants...... 362W Buildings: Energy...... 312W Illegal Immigrants: Greater London ...... 362W Empty Property: Tyne and Wear...... 313W Immigrants: Detainees ...... 363W Housing: Sales ...... 313W Police: Bureaucracy...... 363W Markets...... 313W Terrorism: Stop and Search...... 364W Multiple Occupation...... 314W Non-domestic Rates: Valuation ...... 315W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 346W Planning Obligations...... 316W Afghanistan: Copper...... 346W Social Rented Housing: Construction ...... 316W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 346W Developing Countries: Contraception...... 347W DEFENCE...... 336W Developing Countries: Debts ...... 347W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 336W Global Fund to Fight AIDS Tuberculosis and Armed Forces: Discharges ...... 336W Malaria...... 347W Armed Forces: Drugs...... 339W Armed Forces: Food ...... 340W JUSTICE...... 382W Armed Forces: Parachuting ...... 341W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 382W Armed Forces: Rescue Services ...... 341W Health Services: Isle of Man ...... 382W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 342W Royal Household ...... 383W Departmental Interpreters ...... 342W Trade Unions ...... 383W Departmental Pensions ...... 343W Young Offenders: Rape ...... 384W Ex-servicemen: Health Services...... 343W Ex-servicemen: Identity Cards ...... 344W LEADER OF THE HOUSE...... 303W Military Aircraft: Helicopters ...... 344W Backbench Business Committee ...... 303W Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association ...... 344W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 320W Territorial Army ...... 345W Gary Whattley ...... 320W Independent International Commission on ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 348W Decommissioning: Expenditure ...... 320W Biofuels...... 348W Climate Change: International Co-operation...... 348W OLYMPICS ...... 319W Nuclear Power: Research ...... 349W Olympic Games 2012: Human Trafficking ...... 319W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL SCOTLAND...... 319W AFFAIRS...... 320W Departmental Marketing ...... 319W Biofuels: Boilers...... 320W Fair Trade Initiative ...... 321W TRANSPORT ...... 325W Illegal Immigrants...... 321W Bus Services: Concessions ...... 325W Oils: Waste Disposal ...... 321W Cycling...... 325W Stroud ...... 322W Government Car and Despatch Agency...... 326W Waste Disposal: Fees and Charges ...... 322W Nuclear Submarines...... 327W Railways: Crime...... 328W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 317W Roads: Costs ...... 327W Counter-terrorism: International Cooperation...... 317W Roads: Snow and Ice...... 329W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 317W Rolling Stock ...... 331W Illegal Immigrants...... 318W Thameslink Railway Line...... 331W Maldives: Religious Freedom...... 319W TREASURY ...... 332W HEALTH...... 349W Banks: Loans ...... 332W Cancer: Nurses...... 349W Civil Servants: Relocation ...... 332W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Blood ...... 350W Departmental Paper...... 332W Dental Services ...... 350W Hotels ...... 333W Departmental ICT ...... 350W Public Sector Relocation Independent Review ...... 333W Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements ...... 350W Social Security Benefits: Uprating...... 333W Hearing Impaired: Health Services ...... 351W Stroud ...... 334W Hepatitis: Prisoners...... 351W Tax Allowances: Charities...... 334W Mental Health Services: Advocacy...... 351W Taxation: National Lottery ...... 334W Midwives: Training ...... 351W Valuation Office Agency ...... 335W Myelodysplastic Syndromes...... 352W VAT ...... 335W National Treatment Agency: Public Relations...... 353W Northampton Hospital: Waiting Lists ...... 353W WALES...... 323W Streptococcus: Babies...... 353W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 323W Departmental Languages...... 323W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 354W Departmental Marketing ...... 324W British Nationality ...... 354W Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 324W Departmental Data Protection...... 359W Departmental Travel ...... 324W Departmental Pay ...... 360W Economic Situation...... 324W Col. No. Col. No. WALES—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Trade Unions ...... 325W Directgov: Contracts...... 306W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 306W WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 345W Employment Schemes ...... 307W Departmental Marketing ...... 345W Employment Schemes: Part-time Employment ...... 307W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 346W Grimsby...... 307W Departmental Theft ...... 346W Hotels ...... 309W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 310W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 303W New Deal Schemes: Hemsworth...... 310W Carers’ Benefits...... 303W Pension Credit...... 311W Child Support Agency: Complaints ...... 304W State Retirement Pensions...... 311W Children: Maintenance ...... 304W Winter Fuel Payments...... 311W Departmental Contracts ...... 304W Work Capability Assessment...... 312W Departmental ICT ...... 305W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 10 March 2010

Col. No. JUSTICE...... 5MC Political Parties ...... 5MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 17 March 2010

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 10 March 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 279] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Representation of the People (Undue Influence) [Col. 307] Bill presented, and read the First time

Remembrance Sunday (Closure of Shops) [Col. 308] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Sir Patrick Cormack)—agreed to

Estimates (2nd allotted day) [Col. 310] Alcohol Road Users (Taxed and Charges) Estimates agreed to

Consolidated Fund [Col. 398] Bill presented, and read the First time

Petitions [Col. 400]

Law on Assisted Suicide [Col. 401] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall British Indian Ocean Territories [Col. 71WH] RBS (Small Business Lending) [Col. 92WH] Kent Coast Railway Line [Col. 100WH] Repatriation of Historical Objects [Col. 124WH] International Financial Transactions (Tax) [Col. 132WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 13WS]

Petitions Bagged petitions to be published next sitting day

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 303W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]