LINE ITEMS CREATIVE DESTRUCTION Scott Macaulay heads a roundtable discussion on the current indie model and what the hopes are for the future of the business.

“The sky is falling,” Film Department head foreign-driven but would still be looking for business model is up front. Mark Gill famously proclaimed at the L.A. some kind of U.S. sale. And then there were, The first two strands that you said are not Film Festival this past summer. His spiritedly and I group them together, the prestige, mini- part of the equation anymore — I think downbeat take on the indie world and its major films and the potential crossover mini- those strands are where a lot of readers of operating paradigms resonated throughout the major films — the films that are in Mark the magazine see themselves. Does anyone industry as he catalogued all of the past year’s Gill’s sweet spot — movies that have two or else at the table see their business model in problems (a glut of films, vanishing specialty three leads and a known director. You could those first two strands? distributors and skyrocketing marketing costs, package these films and get them financed Braun: As somebody selling movies, I can go among them) before concluding by telling by U.S. distributors. The fourth strand were in and out of any one of those categories if filmmakers to make better movies — and the few movies that we set up in the studio they are movies I believe in and believe I’m fewer of them! world. Now those first two types of films are going to sell. A movie like Baghead was a very One could quibble with elements of Gill’s no longer a part of the equation unless you low-budget film with no stars but it had genre argument — are $15 million and up films really truly shrink and make them some other way. elements so maybe I thought it was more sell- the only ones we should be trying to make? And the third strand, those $8 million to $15 able for that reason. We sold it to Sony Clas- — while still recognizing that his general million films, has become difficult too. When sics for a decent amount of money — it made points are sound. Something has changed, and we started you would expect to get 50 percent a profit. But that’s not going to happen to that’s apparent even to the average person (and from the U.S. [for these films]. Then conser- every film. There are plenty that I don’t think investor), for whom mainstream newspaper vatively you would put down 30 percent from we’ll make much money on, but we love them stories about failing indie companies and the U.S. We do those [financing calculations] and still sign them. unsold films have now replaced the rags-to- now and put in zero from the U.S. That’s Van Hoy: I guess [our model] is probably riches Sundance tales that have drawn so much what we actually expect to get out of the U.S., very similar to the first two strands that Ted speculative capital to the indie world. even with two or three stars. The U.S. is not started with. When we make films we’re more To discuss all of this I invited a distinguished the driver it used to be. It’s just another terri- focused on a [director’s] second feature, and group of producers and sales agents for a long tory that has its odd fluctuations as much as [making] the first feature is part of that. One discussion of indie film past, present and future. France or Japan or eastern Europe. Right now of the reasons we’re able to produce [these Josh Braun, Matt Dentler, Ira Deutchman, Ted its value is in the tax-rebate money. And so films] is because we keep our overhead low. I Hope, Lars Knudsen, and Jay Van Hoy joined you take foreign and your soft money and you found an apartment that’s not expensive. me at the IFP office on August 22 (before, hope you hit 100 percent [of your budget]. In Hope: It’s so true. The absolute best advice is incidentally, Hope’s Film Independent keynote the Mark Gill speech he made it sound like a keep your overhead as low as possible. and the credit and market meltdown of early new recognition that you needed to have for- Deutchman: You can also marry well. [laughs] October) to figure out where we go from here. eign value, but that’s what the model was back Hope: When I moved to New York I had Here is an edited version of our conversation. when we started making films. a Manhattan apartment that I paid $350 a So if that’s the reality of the business, what month for. I was across the street from Coro- I want to start by asking about how the will happen to all those low-budget films net Pizza, which had the biggest slice of pizza paradigm of making independent films is and first-time filmmakers? on the island for $1.10. changing for the producers here given all of Hope: I think that there’s still a way to get Van Hoy: Our office is in Brooklyn. the recent changes in our business. those films made. It takes a lot longer and Braun: It reminds me of when I was in bands Hope: Well, it’s curious, because now it’s you get a lot more bruises as you run against years ago — the bands that could thrive were probably more like it was when we started the brick wall of, “No, no, no, no.” But at the bands that had cheap rehearsal spaces. [the production company ] one point you finally chip away and you get Jay and Lars, how many films are you work- than it ever has been before. In the late ’80s through the wall. It’s much harder. ing on right now? and into the ’90s [Good Machine] developed It’s a passion model, not a business model? Knudsen: Five in post, two of which are in a four-strand production business. One was Hope: Well when someone asks to see the Toronto, and then I guess three or four fea- low-budget first features — from a couple numbers on your films and they want to see tures that [we’re prepping]. of hundred thousand to a couple of million the profits, there’s no category for “cultural Is your company based on the idea of that dollars — which were designed for a full un- profit.” There’s not a category for the career kind of volume? Do you need that many veiling at Sundance with a drive for U.S. and advancement that you provided everybody. films to make your model work, or did it just international sales. The second was kind of a You don’t get to monetize the fact that the work out that way? low-budget indie auteur business — the Hal company that sold the film was then able to Van Hoy: I wish that volume counted for Hartleys, Todd Solondzs and John Waters. get the next film by a certain director who ad- something materially. It kind of doesn’t be- These films would [cost from] a couple mil- mired the one you made. It is a scary thing cause the fees are so low. lion dollars to six or seven and would be more when you can’t figure out what that exact Hope: But aren’t you covering your office

106 FILMMAKER FALL 2008 spaces and assistant salaries? DEUTCHMAN: “i think the market Van Hoy: Kind of. Some films are subsidized better than others. correction that is happening with Knudsen: When we do five features in a the majors getting out of the year, all we need are two of them to [pay us] decent fees. For the rest of them we don’t [indie] business is the best thing take a fee and try to make them for $100,000 that has ever happened.” or $200,000. Hope: It was kind of the same model for us need for product because of the home-video tween information that’s gotten to people about — we tried to have two that cost $8 million boom. That was really behind just about ev- what things should cost and what the market so we could do two that cost $2 million. To- erything that was being funded at that time. really is. There are a number of good filmmak- day the no-budget stuff is really spaghetti on There was a sense that if you made a film for ers who come to us and say, “And the great news the wall. It only makes sense [as a producer] a couple of hundred thousand dollars, or even is that it’s only a $3 million budget!” if you are doing a true portfolio, like raising $400,000, $500,000, that the downside risk Deutchman: Or documentaries that are made $2 million to make eight films. You can then was pretty minimal because there was always for a million dollars. “You made a documen- afford to have a few of them completely not a video value to just about anything of quality. tary for a million dollars?” stick and hope that the one in eight hit will There really was a business plan to these kind Braun: Maybe certain documentaries have pay for the rest of the losses you’ve incurred. of movies. Now, the video market as we know a huge built-in audience, but I always say, Van Hoy: Looking at our future we see our- it sucks, and all these “new models” that we’re “Come back when it costs $550,000; that’s a selves being pushed more and more into dis- all so crazy about are peanuts. I mean, if you more practical business plan. Even then it’s tribution. That’s a reality that, along with a lot want to make the equivalent of what would risky, but at least there’s a possibility of a sig- of other producers, we’re just now confront- have then been a $400,000 to $500,000 mov- nificant television deal and foreign sales, and ing. What does that mean for us as producers ie, in terms of knowing that there really is a then you’ll break even.” and how are we going to do it? I don’t have business that can support it on the downside, Matt, what about you? Why did you join Ci- the answers at the moment, but it’s definitely you’re making movies for $6,000. netic Rights Management at this particular something we have to consider now. Hope: Anne Thompson had an article [in Va- time in distribution history? Ira, how has the last year’s worth of business riety] on the top non-theatrical VOD, or avail- Dentler: One of the reasons I left a very posi- developments in the world able for download, film and it made something tive experience at SXSW to go to Cinetic is informed your model at Emerging Pictures? like $28,000. I said to [This is That partner] that I was on the front lines of seeing these Ira: In my case, Emerging is five years old, so Anne [Carey], “I figured it out, I know how very, very small microbudget films champi- it’s not a reaction to what’s going on today. to cover our overhead for the year! We make oned and beloved, not by everybody, but by Today is just an extreme version of what was films for $4,821, and based on what I expect very specific audiences who were very dedi- going on five years ago. And to go back even the profit return to be, if we make 200 of them cated [to them], audiences who loved to blog further, when I first started in this business in a year we’ll keep our doors open.” and tell their friends about them. We’re talk- there was no such thing as American inde- Deutchman: When people talk about these ing about [films with] budgets of $5,000 to pendent film. It had not been coined as a term, fabulous business plans to make movies for $10,000, and so for some filmmakers, it’s like nobody knew what it was, and there were whatever the number is, and they start build- you know what? If I can pay my bills and make only a few extremely maverick directors who ing in numbers for what it’s going to sell for another one of these films next year then I’m were doing it out of absolute necessity. We’re here and over there and wherever, I have to just happy with that. But there are only so many talking about starting with Cassavetes all the throw my arms up because in today’s market- of these filmmakers, people like Joe Swanberg, way through . It was around the place there’s no way that you can build anything who is totally fine with being broke as long as time that Sayles started working that Ameri- that has an inherent value unless you’re able to he can still pay his bills and make his next film. can independents began to have a name. In pre-sell it, in which case you’re in business. The reality is there’s not a huge windfall com- terms of funding you had then an enormous Braun: There is some kind of disconnect be- ing out of this VOD-driven, digitally-based

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stuff, so to a certain degree it’s about [helping the dollar. That prompted a long discussion filmmakers build a] brand and leveraging it to and one poster said, “This conversation [allow them to do] something else. Look at is ridiculous. If the films are good they’ll Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails saying okay, create their market.” There are people out we can give our album away for free and we’ll there who think this conversation about recoup that money by going on the road. new distribution models is an abstract one Ira, with regards to your comment earlier and that the independent community is just that these new models are offering peanuts, suffering from a lack of quality films. is it possible that now maybe we are just in Braun: I agree with that 100 percent. The a period where these new digital platforms marketplace is flooded with so much crap be- are maturing and one day they will replace cause of the [low] price point to buy a camera what we had before? and to create a film. This stuff is just clutter- Deutchman: No. ing up the marketplace. So, is that money gone? Dentler: And we’re always reading the same Deutchman: I honestly think that eventually old story: how so many films are being opened there will be a platform that might emerge every single Friday in The New York Times. Ted Hope is an independent film that might actually turn out big money, but [it But we all know that a lot of these openings producer. He co-founded Good won’t] as long as we have the fractured uni- are just filmmakers who are bound and deter- Machine and is currently the co- verse that we have right now, where nobody mined to get their New York Times review and founder of the New York production knows what the fuck to buy because there’s nothing else. company This is That. Hope has this box and there’s that box, and there’s this Hope: For all these movies that get made produced ’s Ride with the model and that model, and this isn’t compat- each year that are based on a parent’s dream Devil, ’s Human ible with that. It’s a [great world] for aggrega- of their daughter or son being the genius that Nature, ’s Stroytelling tors who can make non-exclusive deals and they always thought that they were, basically and Nicole Holofcenter’s Friends With make 10 cents here and 10 cents there and the same amount of genius [is produced each Money to name just a few. He has that adds up if they are handling a couple of year]. Sundance submissions have gone from produced twenty-two Sundance entries hundred movies. But for people who actually 350 films to over 3,500, but you still get those including three Sundance Grand Jury are counting on that revenue to recoup their two or three people who you know will have a Prize winners. budgets, there’s nothing there. nice long career. That’s it: two or three per year, Dentler: There is money to be made, but it no matter how many are produced. And in the doesn’t compete with huge box office grosses. old days they made two movies every three years It’s all about how you determine value. We and now they make one film every six years. put films on the Internet that in a Friday to Deutchman: I actually don’t agree with the Sunday window are being seen by more peo- idea that independent films are just not as ple than most of the documentaries that are good as they used to be. I think they’re just not in our theaters right now. It’s not just people as special as they used to be. It used to be that pushing “play,” it’s people watching all three you could say, “Oh, I made my film on a credit hours of . card,” and that was a press angle! Now it’s like Deutchman: I guarantee you one showing on if you’re 4 years old and you made your movie PBS will probably get more viewers than you on a cell phone that might be an angle. guys are going to get in 10 years. Hope: The tragedy right now is that really Braun: Yeah, but there’s not necessarily a rev- great movies don’t get seen and you can’t fa- enue share. cilitate the dialogue to talk about them. Matt Dentler Dentler: I do think that there are some things Braun: Really great movies? Matt Dentler was the producer of the that are just as valuable, if not more valuable, to Hope: Reprise is the best first feature made since South by Southwest Film Conference a filmmaker than that big theatrical opening. Amores perros, right? It’s an incredibly strong and Festival in Austin, Texas for five Maybe a degree of press and enthusiasm defines movie about filmmaking, youth, rock and roll years and currently runs the marketing success? Did you read Manohla Dargis’s review and romance, and nobody sees the movie and and programming operations of of Mamma’s Man today? I think for some film- you can’t get a dialogue going about it. Cinetic Media’s Digital Rights makers that alone is [an achievement]. Braun: Most everybody who’s seen it loves it. Management division, which focuses Producer Noah Harlan started a conversa- Hope: The Edge of Heaven marks the arrival on finding digital outlets for films. tion on the Filmmaker blog after he went to of a director who made a superstrong first film Matt sits on the Board of Directors for the Sundance Producers Conference this into true international auteur status; a movie the Austin Film Society. year. There was a lot of talk about digital dis- that’s made to be seen on the big screen. No- tribution and he ran the numbers on some body goes to see it. Ballast, a socially relevant of the different models and concluded that, movie about present-day life, delivered with as you said, Ira, producers make pennies on incredible style and deep emotion and truth

108 FILMMAKER FALL 2008 and all that sort of stuff — we will see what happens. But people better get out to support THE MINI-MAJOR it if we want a vibrant film culture to remain BOOM AND BUST available to us. There are directors consistently Hope: You have to look at what got us to this making the same number of good movies [each point, which was a surplus of production fueled year]. But despite having more advanced tools by more people entering film schools and what than we’ve ever had, [we’re not able to] bring looked like would be that long, insatiable video people together in new and different ways be- demand. [Those resulting revenues] allowed cause what has happened [is that] 3,400 smart companies to spring up and try new models. people [each year] with access to money have For a long time there was what was looked at chosen to squander their funds to make fuckin’ as a true glass ceiling, which kind of still exists ego-fueled cinematic trophies instead of say- today, maybe a $15 million [theatrical gross]. ing, “No, instead what I want to do is unite Then three films in a row crossed over that, and all the independent cinemas across America then, of course, there was Pulp Fiction, which because they don’t share information.” You can made indie films truly hip to the Hollywood Google “independent bookstores” and what community. Pulp Fiction gave the indie com- do you get? You get a site that connects all the munity access to a whole higher caliber of actor, independent bookstores together so they can killing, mind you, what was starting to emerge book their speakers all throughout them and at the time as almost like an indie star system. Ira Deutchman foster conversation and appreciation about But really the main thing was that [studios and Ira Deutchman has made, marketed books. Google “independent theaters” and distribution companies] looked at the huge and distributed films for 26 years. He you’re not going to get the same thing. profit margin they could have if they were will- worked on over 130 films including Does everyone go along with Ted’s argu- ing to spend in a more aggressive fashion. And John Sayles’s Matewan, Jonathan ment? Are there fantastic films out there since most of these companies at the time were Demme’s Swimming to Cambodia that are the equal to or better than the films owned by mega corporations, big profit mar- and ’s . He that have come out of the independent sec- gins, “Well, yes, they’re good,” the mega-corps co-founded and was the president tor in previous years and that are not reach- all said. It’s just common sense. But then what of marketing and distribution for ing an audience because of an atrophy of the came was the need to have films that justify a Cinecom Entertainment Group. He distribution infrastructure? minimum of $5 million prints and advertising was also the president and founder Braun: I think the reality of it is that the audi- spend. It’s a backwards model. of and senior ence that they’re reaching is probably the audi- Deutchman: The first time I was ever told by vice president of . ence that’s most predisposed to caring [about a studio that a movie had to justify the P&A Deutchman is currently the president them]. Ten years ago those films would have spend rather than the other way around I al- and CEO of Emerging Pictures, a been appreciated and seen by more people, but most fell over. I think there are three factors New York digital film production and there wasn’t so much Internet activity. fueling the crisis we are experiencing right exhibition company which recently Deutchman: I think that the reason why a lot now. One of them is cyclical: The cycle that released Sayles’s Honydripper, a of films of high quality don’t get seen is be- you are referring to that started with Pulp partner in the New York independent cause the audience that’s interested in going Fiction, which was essentially about “buying production company, Redeemable to see offbeat non-Hollywood films is a very the audience” rather than allowing the audi- Features, and an associate professor specific audience with a specific taste. It’s a ence to build. It was the Miramaxilatation of in the Graduate Film Division at mistake that a lot of people have been making the indie film business, and that’s the bubble Columbia University. for 30 years, which is thinking there’s going that’s now burst. I think the market correc- to be a rabid audience that’s going to be inter- tion that is happening with the majors getting ested in [a particular] subject matter, and then out of this business is the best thing that has it turns out not. I go back to Hoop Dreams. It ever happened. didn’t matter how great the reviews were. The Braun: Yes, I agree with that. art-film audience, which is the only audience Deutchman: There will be less clutter going that would’ve gone to see a two hour and for that specific audience that is interested in forty-five minute documentary, simply wasn’t more “out there” kinds of movies, and I think interested in basketball. that it’s going to clear the decks for people Dentler: And that’s why we put Hoop Dreams who actually can come up with new business on ! models. All the innovation in the movie busi- Braun: Nice transition! ness has always come from the independent Dentler: No, seriously, because you could only sector. Then the major studios either buy us find that movie on Criterion. Most basketball out or copy us. So basically I think that’s the fans, sports fans, have heard of that film but good news. have never seen it. And so we thought, “Let’s Hope: And I’m incredibly excited about that give it away for free.” too. The role of the independents has his-

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torically been to find the transition from one they’re just watching on at home. model to another model. Hope: But the thing is that by [viewers’ pur- Deutchman: But there are two things that suing] individual pursuits you lose the com- throw a monkey wrench into that that I think munity; it dissolves. Part of the problem is are new and as a result are not cyclical, and I that the [promise of downloads and home think they could be potentially damaging in viewing has allowed the viewers’] withdrawal the long term. One is the fact that there are from the small niche theatrical business. If no regional critics anymore. All of the local you want to see the 15 films that played at newspapers have fired their critics and now SXSW last year, how do you find those films? Lars Knudsen it’s like five people who control all the press. They’re not even covering them in the press and Jay Van Hoy So that’s No. 1. anymore. Where is the film thing that allows In 2000, Lars Knudsen met Jay Van Hope: But, I want to point out the one thing you to track those films? Half of them aren’t Hoy when they were both working for that’s good on the flip side of that is that histori- available for download or Netflix. producer Scott Rudin on such films cally the national critics have been more support- Dentler: They will be soon. including The Royal Tenenbaums, The ive of a true specialized film than local critics. Braun: I don’t know if you necessarily want Hours and Iris. In 2004, they founded Dentler: It just means that a film can fail them to be. I mean, are you really going to watch Van Hoy/Knudsen Productions, across the whole country at the same time. all those movies? I don’t know if all of them are a company dedicated to director- Deutchman: The third thing is home theaters necessarily going to be of the quality that every driven, collaborative filmmaking. and how sophisticated they’ve gotten, and that cineaste would want to watch them. They’ve produced Kelly Reichardt’s it’s much, much harder to get people to go to the Dentler: There are films out there, both older Old Joy, Steve Collins’ Gretchen, and movies. I’m a big believer that the movie busi- catalog titles and newer films coming off the Cam Archer’s Wild Tigers I Have ness is going to bifurcate into two completely festival circuit that aren’t connecting with the Known. The two have co-produced separate businesses. One of them is going to be right audience for whatever reason, and I do several upcoming films including Nik the major studio business and I think the line believe that audiences for them exist. I don’t Fackler’s Lovely, Still, Cruz Angeles’s between that and a roller-coaster ride is going to think any of us would be doing what we’re do- Don’t Let Me Drown and Spencer disappear. But I also think that the art audience, ing if we didn’t still passionately believe that Parsons’s I’ll Come Running. to whatever extent it still exists, will not give up there is this huge independently minded audi- on the communal experience as fast as the rest ence of film fans out there. There are so many of the audience will. I mean, that’s what I hold more options right now that releasing a film out hope for, and that’s what my business is built the conventional way, whatever that means, on: The idea that theatrical is going to survive just isn’t as effective for a lot of these films. for a small segment of the public, not just the That doesn’t mean that we at Cinetic believe kids on the roller coasters but also the people that every single film should completely bypass who are still romantically attached to the idea of theatrical and go straight to iTunes. Theatri- the theatrical experience. cal is still incredibly important, but what about those films that have no chance for theatri- AUDIENCES cal, have no chance probably for DVD, but AND COMMUNITY because of this explosion of new media have Hope: The big problem after Pulp Fiction potential to tap into the right audience? Will was that once independent film became the every single one of them work? Probably not, “specialized and prestige business,” it adopted but most of them should if you can effec- Josh Braun a very money-based, huge profit margin/low- tively target them, just like an exhibitor does Josh Braun has worked in television risk model. And as a result the things that by [booking] certain films in certain theaters. as well as movies for several years. He built independent film, built film apprecia- As Ted was saying, I think the communal ex- co-founded Submarine Entertainment, tion, developed cineastes in every nook and perience of watching these sorts of films and a hybrid production company/ cranny of the world were allowed to wither discussing them is very, very important. I just producer’s representative selling and away. The glue that really differentiated what think that the definition of the communal ex- producing innovative and high-quality I would still prefer to call “art film” was, perience for art has changed with the Inter- television projects, documentaries and frankly, a community thing. The people who net and telecommunication; I think that the movies with his twin brother Dan. [originally built] the independent specialized blogosphere and social-networking sites have Submarine Entertainment has executive distribution business all came out of non-the- created a sense of community around certain produced many films including David atrical exhibition which catered to preexist- entertainment. Cronenberg’s A History of Violence, ing, easily identifiable communities. Braun: It’s a database culture, it’s not really a Douglas Keeve’s Seamless, and Scott Braun: But wait, [that audience is still] out community. Looking at lists and saying, “Oh, Crary’s Kill Your Idols. there. Those people are there. They were once that’s their first top five. Here is my first top like a puddle or a pond and now they’re a bunch five.” Comparing profiles. That’s different of raindrops all over. They’re still the same, than an actual community…

110 FILMMAKER FALL 2008 Dentler: For people who are coming of age in that sprung up out of the new rock scene? to release the film. A theatrical release of any that culture, that is their idea of community. For example, Sub Pop Records, a label from film [involves] assessing the risk. For the first time we’re seeing a generation the Northwest, created something called The Hope: I think there are a lot of things to be of filmmakers for whom the cinema was not Sub Pop Singles Club, a subscription service. really excited by, such as, as Ira was saying, their primary way of experiencing film when For $50 or $100, you got a unique product, the retreat by the major media corporations growing up. They grew up watching video signed and numbered, and by the second year from the specialty [film business]. Hopefully and television. So I think their own expecta- the first single was worth the price of the en- we can return to a much more modest [busi- tion level of a cinematic experience is evolving. tire subscription. How come that doesn’t exist ness], like looking at films that set a goal of $5 I’m finding more and more filmmakers, people for the true independent filmmaker? million U.S. box office. What is the average who are coming out of film school, coming out Van Hoy: [Wild Tigers I Have Known direc- budget of an independent film that applies to of high school, saying, “I only watch movies on tor] Cam [Archer] would like nothing more Sundance? If you put it at $500,000 and con- iTunes.” Or, “I only watch movies on my Net- than to make customized DVDs that he can sider 3,400 films a year, look at that huge loss flix account. It would mean the world to me if sell as art. In fact the same would go for Nik of money! Billions upon billions of dollars… my film could be on Netflix.” Well, what about [Fackler] who made [Lovely, Still] for a much Dentler: I used to say at SXSW that all the the Angelika? “Never heard of it.” higher budget. videos we rejected were like all the houses Dentler: That was the case with Gary Hus- that could have been bought. FINDING twit and Helvetica. He made a documentary Hope: If you look at what the last 15 years THE NEW AUDIENCES about a very specific topic, graphic design. of independent film was about, it was about Hope: I think there are still some really excit- People in the graphic-design world loved it. It demystifying production. What the next 15 ing things that are happening [in conven- was the first time a movie was done for them. years have to be about is demystifying and de- tional theatrical distribution] now. People He did the festivals, he booked screenings at fining distribution, marketing, and audience are saying, “Okay, I’m making this movie for various colleges and design schools around building and aggregation. $300,000 and we’re raising another $250,000 the country, and if you paid an extra 25 bucks Dentler: I think you’re right, and to a certain in P&A money.” You’ve got to applaud [Bal- you could preorder the DVD and get a T- degree the same needs will apply for the dis- last director] Lance Hammer, who makes a shirt, the book and all this other stuff, and it tribution world because transparency is ulti- fantastic, universally acclaimed movie, and did incredibly well. There were distributors mately what’s best for everybody. what’s the deal that’s available? You’re not who offered him deals and he said no because Hope: Hopefully now filmmakers will say, “Oh going to get your money back doing VOD- he was making all this money. wait a second, if I really care about film I have driven sales. Braun: Anyone who is contemplating dis- to stop focusing on my self-centered dreams of Dentler: Not under those kind of terms, where tributing their own film has to think about production and look at the community-based [the distributor] owns the film for a decade. all of their windows. You’re going to do a aspects of how we build the infrastructure that Deutchman: We just need to completely and video deal, you’re going to do a television deal allows true film appreciation to flourish.” fundamentally change the business model of and hopefully you’re going to do a theatrical Deutchman: I think all this interest in distri- theatrical in order to make it survive. Some- deal too. And I think you are also going to bution is really positive. New ideas will come thing I have been experiencing first-hand be- do digital deals. Hopefully a VOD window out of it and hopefully we will be able to re- cause of our theaters is that you don’t have will be in there, there’ll be some kind of deal invent distribution in some way. It is so fas- to make prints anymore, and that blows a with a company like Hulu or SnagFilms. As cinating that all the people who are currently hole in a lot of the central conceits of the a sales rep we look at our movies and think, considered, as John Pierson puts it, the perma- theatrical film business. You don’t have to “What would be the best [distribution strat- nent government of independent film, every play seven days a week and six shows a day egy]?” We’re negotiating right now with a single one of them [started with] the dream of in order to justify the cost of a 35mm print. filmmaker who is saying, “I got most of my owning a movie theater and putting on a show You can start to really think about how we budget from grants, so I want to experiment — that Judy Garland and Mickey Rooney sort can make a cost-effective way of getting a with an online premiere,” whereas other film- of thing. And now everybody wants to be a theatrical platform that everybody craves, makers could never do that because their director. I mean, there’s been no interest in dis- creating the value so that when the movie’s investors would never accept it. There was a tribution for so long; there was no generation on iTunes somebody’s heard of it, as op- movie recently called Dear Zachary that was at of people wanting to reinvent distribution fol- posed to it just being another movie out there. Slamdance, and we actually helped set up part lowing behind my generation. And so maybe Hope: I talked to Stephen Raphael who’s of the structure of a new documentary strand that’s just now beginning to happen. But you working with Lance, and he says the model at MSNBC, in terms of the parameters of the were talking about a couple of the models of that’s coming together for them is a mixture aquisition. We were able to negotiate as part of people running around doing college screen- of theatrical booking, campus appearances the deal a contribution to a theatrical release, ings — there’s nothing new about that! It’s and community-center distribution. The Ap- which is obviously unusual, but [MSNBC] like what people were doing 20 years ago! It’s ple store has booked them in a couple of spots understood the value of it. They paid a good exactly the same model. All that’s different is across the country, and he’s piecing together amount of money for the film and they gave that because the technology has changed cer- a mixture of [theater bookings] and live ap- us a limited but unrestricted budget on top of tain limitations have gone away. pearances. That’s their model, but where is the that, and we are now basically providing that Braun: The audience is still out there. I think equivalent in film of the [distribution ideas] money to a theatrical company, , what we’re talking about is finding new ways

FILMMAKER FALL 2008 111 LINE ITEMS to reach that audience. Producing a film is a in your living room, and that’s why there’s who are banked by the biggest fools. very short-term oriented goal, whereas build- so much confusion. The reality is that Time Braun: But that person you say “no” to still ing and getting into that infrastructure, finding Warner and are just hanging back goes out and makes a movie somehow. the community, is a long-term experience. and saying, “You know what? We control Hope: For $150,000. And they don’t make Knudsen: That’s what we’ve been doing on what box is in your living room. We don’t the next one after it. all five films that are in post now; that’s the have to worry about this fight because when Braun: It is harder for all of us because it is process. We’re spending as much resources in we decide we have the right product we’re go- harder at every step of the game. Our expe- marketing, publicity and distribution before ing to shove it down your throats and we’re rience of selling movies, finding distributors, we go into production. going to make sure we cut it off from all IP helping the films be positioned in the right Are these films festival launches part of a outsiders. We’ll control what’s in the box.” way is extremely different now as opposed self-distribution plan, then? to three years ago. It wasn’t easy then but it’s Knudsen. It’s a Plan A/Plan B strategy. It’s FINAL THOUGHTS much harder now. working with the best marketers beforehand Let’s conclude by going back to those films Hope: But you have built your business by to figure out what our market is — being a from Ted’s first two categories — the low- actually being very innovative with the deals step ahead of the distributors. budget (up to $2 million) first-time fea- that you’ve done, not just following the one- ture, and the slightly higher, $2 million to stop delivery approach but instead aggregat- FIGHTING $8 million second- or third-time feature. ing a series of different outlets. All of us in FOR THE INTERNET Are those films now $100,000 DV-shot Joe the indie film [production] business, we keep Hope: The big hope of [Internet distribu- Swanberg kind of films, or is there a way to following an old model instead of embrac- tion] is that we can all have access to it. But put that market back together where you ing [new ideas and revenue streams]. I think that’s going to change, and right now the in- could make these films with more resources, there are a great number of untapped revenue dependent film community is doing nothing professional crews, etc.? streams available for every single film of qual- about it. We’re not [lobbying] Congress to Hope: Here’s the thing. I have produced ity that aren’t being utilized at all, and we’ve make sure that net neutrality stays, and we’re 20 first features. I’ve had three films win let our ability to access them wither away. going to see our livelihood go away if we Sundance. All of my films have had theat- People need to invest the time upfront [build- don’t. The corporations are going to win and rical distribution. You come to me, you’ve ing their audience] instead of saying, “I have they’re going to control people’s access to it: made a brilliant student film, right? You’ve to shoot right away.” You have a responsibil- what films go out and which ones get out got a really original script, and you say, “To ity to start to seek your audience and start to the fastest, which ones get cleared, which do this film right I want 2, 2½ million dol- build that from the very beginning. ones you get access to, what you don’t have lars.” You know what I have to say to you Deutchman: What’s interesting is I think the access to. The good thing will be like what when you come in the door now? “Good- younger filmmakers are actually much more happened in the record industry: People will bye.” There are those films that are of the open-minded about thinking outside the box. finally rebel. What’s going to be really excit- quality that should get made under a model One of the things that I run into is that a lot ing, one of the net benefits of when Obama that once worked in the marketplace, but of the filmmakers who I admire who are used gets elected president, is that you’ll see we you can’t justify the production value and the to the old model, when you bring up differ- can have real change in the country, so when experience and the talent [required to make ent windows or different ways of dealing with major corporations change the Web forever them] under the current business model. things, they’re very much caught up in the and limit people’s access to [the Internet], That’s partially because the infrastructure way things used to be. And that’s why a lot of I think that same segment that said, “Fuck has been allowed to wither away, and that’s them are not working. you, we’ll steal everything, we’ll take every- partially because the filmmakers have opted Braun: I would say we have to end on the thing for free and just keep trading it, and to make their own movies instead of going statement that we all have to work hard. Ev- we don’t care if we destroy your model” will into distribution. All those things have to eryone has to work harder. start to say the same thing about culture. be rebuilt to be able to go back and do that. Okay, that’s the last word. Thanks, every- “We know that you’ve been putting us on There have always been an excess of excel- body, for talking about all of this.t the slow drip in terms of what you feed us in lent directors and script[s] that need the terms of culture, and we want to have some- time and the effort from collaboration from thing much more diverse, something more smart producers. When you have to work organic,” a change that hopefully will lead in that $4,328 budget level that’s justified people to go back and get excited about the by digital downloads, or even the $500,000 films that played at SXSW that they never thing, you’re not able to access beauty in the got an opportunity to see. I think we’re on same way; you’re not able to access experi- the verge, and people [need to] wake up and ence in the same way. And we, the audience say, “We have to make sure that we still have that appreciates those films, are going to be the same access, all of us, to the Internet.” denied all those movies, which frequently Deutchman: That is the central battle we’re are where innovation comes from. And the facing right now. That’s why everybody’s only filmmakers who will get to [make these fighting about whose box is going to end up size films] will be the most privileged people

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