The American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews The Museum of Seattle, Washington

Goodwill Meeting, American Fighter Aces Association and Fighter Pilots’ Association (Part 2 of 3)

Recording Date: May 1961

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Abstract: This three-part recording contains highlights from a goodwill meeting between the American Fighter Aces Association and the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association, held in May 1961 in . In part two, the narrator presents excerpts from conversations between the American and German delegations. Topics discussed include the German scoring system for aerial victories, past and current developments in , and the diplomatic importance of the meeting. Identified speakers include Werner Andres, President of the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association; James L. Brooks, President of the American Fighter Aces Association; Eugene A. Valencia, Vice President of the American Fighter Aces Association; Raymond F. Toliver, Air Force officer; German fighter aces Walter Krupinski, , , Galland, and Georg Eder; and American fighter aces Walker M. “Bud” Mahurin and .

Background:

In May 1961, members of the American Fighter Aces Association visited as part of a goodwill meeting between them and the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association. During their week-long visit, they toured German air bases and attended various events, including a war memorial dedication in Geisenheim, Germany. Several moments from the meeting were recorded, such as goodwill gestures and conversations between American and German fighter aces.

Restrictions:

Permission to publish material from the American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interview Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives.

Transcript:

Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services 3

Index:

Conversation between Eugene Valencia and Werner Andres about the point system ...... 4

Conversation between American and German fighter aces ...... 5

Discussion of manned fighters and unmanned weapon systems ...... 7

Remarks from Walker “Bud” Mahurin ...... 8

Conversation between Eugene Valencia and Erich Hartmann about aircraft and tactics ...... 10

Conversation between Eugene Valencia and Georg Eder ...... 10

Remarks from James L. Brooks and Werner Andres ...... 11

Discussion of German aviation terms ...... 12

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Goodwill Meeting, American Fighter Aces Association and Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association (Part 2 of 3)

[START OF RECORDING]

00:00:00

[Conversation between Eugene Valencia and Werner Andres about the point system]

NARRATOR: Continuing our coverage of the reunion of the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association, Germany, and the Association of Fighter Aces, United States, we reintroduce now Commander Gene Valencia, United States Navy, who is discussing with Mr. Werner Andres, through interpreter George Golbert, the Ace in World War II.

EUGENE A. VALENCIA: Mr. Andres, the paramount interest on the designation of an “ace.” We in America have the designation after destroying five aircraft. What, during World War II, was the requirement to designate a pilot an ace?

WERNER ANDRES [via translator]: Well, there have been some different methods or different systems concerning becoming a German fighter ace. At the beginning of the war, usually after 20 victories, one was awarded with the Knight's Cross and was considered a German fighter ace.

00:02:03

EAV: I see. So after 20 victories, 20 confirmed victories and the presentation of the Knight's Cross, one was designated a German ace.

WA: Yes, sir. That's correct, sir. Absolutely. And later on, after the Russian War started, then the Knight's Cross awards presented after 30 confirmed victories. It was about in August 1941.

EAV: August of '41. So again, the upgrading or the requirement was 30 confirmed aircraft destroyed.

0:02:54

WA: That's correct, sir. And later on, in about spring of '42, 40 confirmed victories had been necessary in order to get the Knight's Cross.

EAV: The point system is interesting. And also, the spring of '42, you—at that time, a point system became necessary.

WA: Yes, sir. Later on, after the four-engine planes were flying over Germany, we had a change to a kind of point system, since we thought that it's more difficult and so actually more use for us to shoot down a four-engine plane instead of the one-engine fighter, sir. 5

EAV: Yes, sir. I do—I realized with the point system that this was—again, to the country's benefit—to destroy a four-engine bomber. However, this did not change the victory factor. A plane shot down was a plane shot down, and the point system, an accumulation, did not necessarily constitute one victory. Is this correct, sir?

WA: That's correct, sir. Absolutely right.

0:05:07

[Conversation between American and German fighter aces]

NARRATOR: We join Ray Toliver, now with the two top German aces, as Colonel Toliver remarks to these two gentlemen about the decoration system in Germany during World War II.

RAY TOLIVER: We are honored tonight to have with us the number one ace of the world, the Richthofen of World War II, Erich Hartmann, Lieutenant Colonel Erich Hartmann, and Colonel Gerhard Barkhorn, the number two ace of the world, both pilots of JG 52—and Barkhorn with many other units, as well as Hartmann, I believe. Erich, I see by the ribbons that you are wearing tonight that you flew over 1,400 combat missions. This is very easy to tell on the German decorations if you look very, very closely at the ribbons because on the lower left- hand corner—they wear an all dark blue or dark black ribbon with an eagle , which gives the number of missions or at least the area of the number of missions they've flown. They had two systems here. They had a system called a start. A start was where they took off on a mission. Then they had what they called rhubarbs, which were missions that ended in a combat with an enemy. Both of these men were with a fighter wing on the Russian front called JG, or Jagdgeschwader, 52. That's not very good German, is it, gentlemen?

GERHARD BARKHORN: I would say Jagdgeschwader 52.

RT: Ah, thank you, Colonel Barkhorn. Barkhorn, who flew how many missions, sir?

GB: 1,104.

RT: 1,104 missions. Steinhoff [], our friend in the United States who is on the military NATO commission—he is the German representative on the NATO commission in Washington, D.C.—told me recently that Colonel Barkhorn is—was the most reliable. When he told you that he had shot down an aircraft at a certain specific point, the next day they could take a Fieseler Storch or some such aircraft, go to this point on the map, and there was an airplane. Colonel Barkhorn, the second ranking ace of the world with 301 aerial kills, also of JG 52, JG 44, which was the organization which Galland [] formed of jet pilots in the elite when he was given a free-hand against the flyers of the remainder of the [unintelligible 00:07:53]. 6

0:07:55

NARRATOR: And then Commander Gene Valencia asked Mr. Erich Hartmann to express his feelings at this time.

ERICH HARTMANN: Maybe I can answer you, but I'm really happy that we are, this night, all together now, and we have a really good friendship or comradeship. I find out that the old German saying is true, that really friendship by heart, you can only get if you have first a big fight. We fight each other, but now we are good friends. And I hope that this friendship nobody can more [unintelligible 00:08:29]. I don't know an English [laughter/unintelligible 00:08:31].

EAV: Erich, to me, that's one of the nicest things that has ever been said about any conflict or fight. Colonel Barkhorn, do you have any feelings in regard to the association, our rather impromptu meeting with gentlemen—or Knights of the Air, as you are and you represent, especially to the people of our country who have always looked up to you?

GB: I found this day that we are the same people, I have to say. And now, after this fight some years ago, we sit in the same boat. And we can't go out and we will not go out. And so I hope we will have our friendship for all time.

00:09:20

EAV: Well, thank you very much, Colonel. Commander Neumann—or Neumann, would you be so kind as to reminisce a bit about some of the instructor chores and enjoyments you had during those days that Colonel Barkhorn has just mentioned?

MAJOR NEUMANN: Okay. I remember quite well it was in the earlier time, '45, when this time our ex—or our—General Galland was forced out as chief of the German fighter pilots and he got permission to build up a special fighter group, including the liberty to pick out the pilots he want to have. At this time, we started this small unit of pilots. First place, of course, General Galland. Second place, this time, Colonel Steinhoff. And a couple of younger pilots. Later on, we received group of newcomers—or I guess I should say, former Wing Commanders or at least Group Commanders.

And that in this group, my excellent , at this time, Major Barkhorn. And he was transferred to this special fighter group, leaded [sic] by General Galland. Practically nothing more than a big fighter squadron. And he never flew before in jet aircraft. And before he took off for his first combat mission, he only got twice the occasion to fly this bird for becoming familiar. So I remember it was his [unintelligible 00:11:36] intention to bring up this bird, this twin-engine bird in the air. He had more trouble on the bird, and he had to abort the mission.

0:12:06 7

EAV: No familiarization at all. “There is the throttle, and there is the stick.” [laughter]. Erich, again, getting back to you, sir. You mentioned today something very dear to my heart, uh…

EH: The teamwork.

EAV: Teamwork aspect. And you mentioned that fact that you never lost a wingman assigned. I think that is certainly a contribution, and one that, again, all instructors have certainly been emphasizing and trying to impress in the new fledglings.

EH: The teamwork is the number one if you are a really good . Because one man in the air is most time lost. And I am really proud that in all of my combats I never lost a wingman. And during this time, the same as—that thing Colonel Barkhorn and the other fighter aces, that is much more important to save the young man who is a kid in the air the first time and we have that possibility for the other life. Today, we learn all our technique and our science and our meeting to get the feel of a good engine or a good weapon system, without a man. And I like to point out as most—much more important for the future, for every kind of technical instrument, that the instrument will never be a good instrument if not a man is behind with a good heart.

EAV: I'm sure this will mean—considerable to the people that are trying to instill this. Colonel, do you have anything to say on the teamwork aspect?

GB: I fully agree with Colonel Hartmann. A pilot alone never can have success. He, every time, needs a second man as though we did in the whole wartime.

0:13:59

[Discussion of manned fighters and unmanned weapon systems]

EAV: What's the opinion of you gentlemen in regards to the manned fighter today, tomorrow, for the next five years? My particular boss—or my boss, General Kuter [Laurence S. Kuter], has been assigned the task of justifying the 108 type, particularly plagued with a possible potential threat in the Russian capability, or a potential enemy's capability, to stand off some 400 to 600 miles and initiate a thermonuclear attack through the Hound Dog-type missile. We are quite thankful that all of our targets cannot be reached from the sea, a possible brush fire aspect. Do you have any views on that [unintelligible 00:14:49]?

GB: I believe as long as the potential enemy has manned bombers, we have to have fighters and every country have to build fighter units.

EAV: Thank you, sir. Erich, do you have any…?

EH: I agree fully with Colonel Barkhorn. And I would say, I would point out this point. [audio malfunction 00:15:11]. My personal opinion is, that you can read in the whole world history, that never start a new war on the point where the last has end. I think that's a very important point for 8 all our planners. And I don't like to say the headquarters because I am only a small man. However, we are all small men. We are only thinking and come from the technical side—

EAV: You're a great man, Erich. A great man.

0:15:40

EH: And therefore, I can only warn—give the warning. Every time you will find in the whole history, that the war—the new war will start there where the last war has end. And you are much more experienced—[unintelligible 00:15:55]—the .

EAV: Mr. Andres, what do you think is the future of the manned interceptor?

WA [via translator]: I personally feel that there always will be fighters and pilots necessary, even if the fast development of the missiles keep on going, because will have to have pilots and [unintelligible 00:17:09].

NARRATOR: Then the same question was put to General Galland. When asked what he thought of the future of the manned fighter, this was his reply.

ADOLF GALLAND: In my modest opinion, we will need and we will have manned interceptors for at least ten years more. The quantity will be smaller from year to year. Meanwhile, the capability will be increased. And one of the reasons for this opinion is that no [unintelligible 00:17:40] or no high, sophisticated computer system can do the same job as a pilot.

[Remarks from Walker “Bud” Mahurin]

EAV: This evening, [Walker M. “Bud” Mahurin] mentioned—and to General Galland's amazement and, I feel, sheer delight—that Bud, when he knew that the General was in the area—and, in one instance, he read through the Spanish papers that he was in the area—was somewhat concerned. Bud, you have been so—you've been the ramrod of this trip. And I—we haven't tapped you for much. But [unintelligible 00:18:18]?

0:18:20

WALKER M. MAHURIN: What Gene's talking about is that we very seldom ever found out who the names of the pilots were that we were against. And only occasionally when we'd see a picture in the paper or a news article or perhaps listen to…Reichs Rundfunk?

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Yes, Reichs Rundfunk.

WMM: We used to listen to it, and it came from Breslau.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: From Breslau, yes. 9

WMM: And it was broadcast in . And it was an English language rebroadcast. And when we'd been out having a fight some day and we'd come back and tune into this broadcast at night. And we would get first our version of what had happened during the day and then we'd also get the German version of what had happened. And I think I talked to you, Georg, about the pilot whose name was .

[overlapping voices/unintelligible 00:19:07]

WMM: When I was shot down in and came out through the French Underground, on one evening I saw four four-engine bombers shot down after [unintelligible 00:19:28], and Lent [likely ] did it. And when I got back to England about four days later, there was a broadcast that came from Breslau. And in this broadcast, Lent was interviewed and acknowledged the fact that he had shot down four bombers. And I had seen it. And I knew what he was saying was true.

But getting back to General Galland, we, on our side, had known a little bit about him. Obviously, as we knew about [unintelligible 00:19:57] and Mölders [likely ] and many others before the war and during the Polish campaign and then on into France and so on.

0:20:06

WMM: Well, at that time after that battle was over, General Galland went down and inspected the coastline to see what had happened. And he was photographed by a number of their photographers and his picture appeared in the German newspapers and the German magazines. And these magazines were sent to and to Lisbon and back into Great Britain. And they got them in our officers' club. And I thought—I was looking at those pictures of pilots. I said, “That's so good. I would never want to run into him in the air.” And so he—the same thing was true of Egon Mayer. We had heard of him.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Yes.

WMM: And one day at the officers' club—there was an international news service correspondent who I became friendly with. His name was Collie Small. And I had an element leader whose name was Joe Egan. And Joe's father was the president of the Western Union Company in the United States. And Joe and this guy, Collie Small, got together one night at the bar, had a few extra drinks, and they dreamed up this story about how me, Walker Mahurin, was out to get Egon Mayer in the air. And I was scouring the skies looking for him in combat. Well, I had no idea this was going on until I finally saw it in the papers in . And here an article came out about how I was going to go [laughter]—God. I was terrified, and I hid for a week.

0:21:25 10

[Conversation between Eugene Valencia and Erich Hartmann about aircraft and tactics]

NARRATOR: One of the many stories that were told by the men who lived them. Now, Gene Valencia again, this time discussing with Erich Hartmann the merits of various aircraft and tactics used.

EAV: Erich, you mentioned something today that I was quite interested in, having just reported to NORAD from an active fighter-interceptor squadron. You are standing by to transition into the 104 aircraft. Is that correct?

EH: Yes. What I have heard is we should get the 104 next year. I'm really happy to get this bird, that we get a little faster in the air and a higher altitude.

EAV: I am happy to hear that. But one thing I'd like to bring up that you so adequately covered today, many of our fighter pilots, our own active fighter-interceptor pilots, are standing by to transition into more modern aircraft. And they're somewhat disgruntled or displeased with the birds that they're flying. However, I was very interested, when you engage aircraft with afterburners, what you do and your concept. This, to me, is the true spirit of Erich Hartmann.

EH: As we found out in our old birds, that you can't put in the afterburner [unintelligible 00:22:40], then you have cut down the afterburner because you don't have only a special production of fluid. Then we can stay in a lower altitude and we'll catch them because we know where their [unintelligible 00:22:52] have to go.

0:22:54

EAV: Erich, as I understand it, the—your techniques or tactics is, when you engage an aircraft with afterburner that can zoom away to come back and fight another day, you wait until they use up their fuel and return to your atmosphere where you have comparable tactical conditions. What do you have to offer as far as the afterburner aircraft is concerned?

EH: I am thinking that, in the practical, we will find a new flying tactical [tactics] for air gases afterburner, but the only thing what I have time I can tell you.

EAV: Well, Erich, thanks. And I'm sure by the time our convention concludes, we'll have the tactics. Thank you very much.

[Conversation between Eugene Valencia and Georg Eder]

NARRATOR: Then Commander Valencia spoke to Mr. Georg Eder, who was the instructor of Erich Hartmann, and also the man who is credited with the development of daylight tactics against bomber formations. 11

EAV: Georg, I understand that you were one of those instrumental in the development of the Me 262. Is this correct?

GEORG EDER: Yes, it's correct. In 1944, I—Major [unintelligible 00:23:59] was killed in action. I became the leader of this test group and tested the 262. And I have about 500 or 520 hours on this first jet plane in the world.

0:24:17

EAV: Well, Georg, this, of course, was one of the great nemesis to the Allied Forces, and I think you were quite surprised today to talk to a number of the American aces that we have that apparently met and one, thought that you or your squadron shot them down in combat.

GE: Yes. It's all right.

NARRATOR: As Mr. Eder said, he was one of the first pilots ever to have flown a jet and as long ago as 1944, when the aircraft was still in its test phase, had accumulated more than 500 hours of flying time. Listen now as Mr. Eder discusses the difference between the jet aircraft of that time and today's technical requirements.

GE: I think that’s 84, when I talked to [unintelligible 00:25:06], I think that now the pilot is sitting on his turbine and timing his turbine. Otherwise, the 262, they—we flew a plane and up the turbine and that's a great advance between these two planes. And I think that now we have more—to have more technical experience for these turbines when we fly the 262. We're there only a flyer and not a technician.

[Remarks from James L. Brooks and Werner Andres]

NARRATOR: At this point, we had the opportunity to ask Mr. Jim Brooks, President of the American Fighter Aces, what his personal views were about the meeting in Germany.

JAMES L. BROOKS: This is truly a historical occasion to meet with these gentlemen here in Germany. We have looked forward to this for quite a number of months. And I believe it's unique in its—in the sense that never before have two groups of people that were involved in World War II as fighter pilots against one another have gotten together to sit and discuss, intelligently and friendly, politics concerning war and tactics that they used and the information we received and also the ideas that they had and the ideas that we have.

0:26:48

NARRATOR: Mr. Werner Andres, President of the German Fighter Pilots’ Association, was asked the same question. First, he answered in his own language and Colonel Krupinski [Walter Krupinski] kindly consented to interpret for us. 12

WA: [speaking in German]

EAV: Mr. Andres, we thank you very much. Colonel Krupinski, would you please take over from this point, sir?

WALTER KRUPINSKI: I must say that I am not an official interpreter and it so may be that I cannot interpret in the right words because my English is not so good as I like to have it. But what Mr. Andres said was that he is of the opinion that he is real glad to see you and your association and your president and the vice presidents here in Germany. He was thinking that fighters have every time the same ideas about a lot of things. And so he thinks that we can make friends and that you and our organization will have a lot out of it. Our—the relationship between our both nations became closer and closer in the last years. And he is real glad to see your organization here. And he hopes that this is the first one and will not be the last type of this coming together.

[Discussion of German aviation terms]

NARRATOR: As always, when people of one country get together with those of another, communication between the two is a prime problem. Major [Kumetta?], Second-in-Command of Büchel Air Force Base, is asked now by Colonel Hub Zemke about this language difficulty that is being experienced in the new German Air Force.

HUBERT ZEMKE: Well, let me ask you a few expressions. Several of your boys have been trained over in the United States, and you have been telling me about a new language being coined in the German Air Force. What is the problem on the new wordage, or the possible cause, of a certain amount of re-acquaintance with the wordage that are used for aviation?

MAJOR KUMETTA: The main problem is that they don't have a German expression for some English words used in the flying business. Difficult [unintelligible 00:31:23] words, if don't find the right one, we have to translate it in whole sentences.

HZ: Well, if anyone is acquainted with the , you are certainly aware that you will have to bring up long wordage. For example, we have a word called “handkerchief.” In German, they put words together, such as taschentuch. This is a piece of cloth that you put in a pocket, literally in translation. Now, in the vein of the new aviation expressions, I understand that a problem would come up on a word such as “tailpipe temperature” which is common to our jet jockeys in the United States. How would you say “tailpipe temperature” in the German language if you literally translated it?

MK: If I translate this word exactly, it would be [speaking German]. 13

HZ: What are some of the other ones that you're encountering difficulty with, with expression to the German populace? For instance, in the traffic patterns, I know we have peculiar phrases in the United States. Could you give me a few of the difficult words that you're trying to get across to the German public?

0:32:57

MK: Downwind leg. We don't have a word for this. In German, the exact translation would be [speaking German]. Nobody would understand it. For instance, another one is “penetration.” We don't have a word for “penetration.” It was a funny thing at Turkey. One aircraft was calling all of the holding pattern for a penetration time and [unintelligible 00:33:35], “Your penetration time will be in 20 minutes.” A call from this aircraft came back to the tower, “No, this penetration time is not correct. Let me down immediately. I am a major, and for this reason, you have to let me down immediately.”

HZ: There are no doubt other expressions and words that you have to use. I know that your boys that have been sent to the United States for training have picked these up as colloquial expressions in the United States. What about the word “no sweat?” Are you using this word in the German vocabulary?

HZ: We would translate this word, “no sweat,” uh, [speaking German].

00:34:30

[END OF RECORDING]