The American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interviews The Museum of Flight Seattle, Washington Goodwill Meeting, American Fighter Aces Association and Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association (Part 2 of 3) Recording Date: May 1961 2 Abstract: This three-part recording contains highlights from a goodwill meeting between the American Fighter Aces Association and the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association, held in May 1961 in Germany. In part two, the narrator presents excerpts from conversations between the American and German delegations. Topics discussed include the German scoring system for aerial victories, past and current developments in aerial warfare, and the diplomatic importance of the meeting. Identified speakers include Werner Andres, President of the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association; James L. Brooks, President of the American Fighter Aces Association; Eugene A. Valencia, Vice President of the American Fighter Aces Association; Raymond F. Toliver, United States Air Force officer; German fighter aces Walter Krupinski, Gerhard Barkhorn, Erich Hartmann, Adolf Galland, and Georg Eder; and American fighter aces Walker M. “Bud” Mahurin and Hubert Zemke. Background: In May 1961, members of the American Fighter Aces Association visited West Germany as part of a goodwill meeting between them and the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association. During their week-long visit, they toured German air bases and attended various events, including a war memorial dedication in Geisenheim, Germany. Several moments from the meeting were recorded, such as goodwill gestures and conversations between American and German fighter aces. Restrictions: Permission to publish material from the American Fighter Aces Association Oral Interview Collection must be obtained from The Museum of Flight Archives. Transcript: Transcribed by Pioneer Transcription Services 3 Index: Conversation between Eugene Valencia and Werner Andres about the point system ................... 4 Conversation between American and German fighter aces ............................................................ 5 Discussion of manned fighters and unmanned weapon systems .................................................... 7 Remarks from Walker “Bud” Mahurin ........................................................................................... 8 Conversation between Eugene Valencia and Erich Hartmann about aircraft and tactics ............. 10 Conversation between Eugene Valencia and Georg Eder ............................................................ 10 Remarks from James L. Brooks and Werner Andres ................................................................... 11 Discussion of German aviation terms ........................................................................................... 12 4 Goodwill Meeting, American Fighter Aces Association and Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association (Part 2 of 3) [START OF RECORDING] 00:00:00 [Conversation between Eugene Valencia and Werner Andres about the point system] NARRATOR: Continuing our coverage of the reunion of the Luftwaffe Fighter Pilots’ Association, Germany, and the Association of Fighter Aces, United States, we reintroduce now Commander Gene Valencia, United States Navy, who is discussing with Mr. Werner Andres, through interpreter George Golbert, the Ace in World War II. EUGENE A. VALENCIA: Mr. Andres, the paramount interest on the designation of an “ace.” We in America have the designation after destroying five aircraft. What, during World War II, was the requirement to designate a pilot an ace? WERNER ANDRES [via translator]: Well, there have been some different methods or different systems concerning becoming a German fighter ace. At the beginning of the war, usually after 20 victories, one was awarded with the Knight's Cross and was considered a German fighter ace. 00:02:03 EAV: I see. So after 20 victories, 20 confirmed victories and the presentation of the Knight's Cross, one was designated a German ace. WA: Yes, sir. That's correct, sir. Absolutely. And later on, after the Russian War started, then the Knight's Cross awards presented after 30 confirmed victories. It was about in August 1941. EAV: August of '41. So again, the upgrading or the requirement was 30 confirmed aircraft destroyed. 0:02:54 WA: That's correct, sir. And later on, in about spring of '42, 40 confirmed victories had been necessary in order to get the Knight's Cross. EAV: The point system is interesting. And also, the spring of '42, you—at that time, a point system became necessary. WA: Yes, sir. Later on, after the four-engine planes were flying over Germany, we had a change to a kind of point system, since we thought that it's more difficult and so actually more use for us to shoot down a four-engine plane instead of the one-engine fighter, sir. 5 EAV: Yes, sir. I do—I realized with the point system that this was—again, to the country's benefit—to destroy a four-engine bomber. However, this did not change the victory factor. A plane shot down was a plane shot down, and the point system, an accumulation, did not necessarily constitute one victory. Is this correct, sir? WA: That's correct, sir. Absolutely right. 0:05:07 [Conversation between American and German fighter aces] NARRATOR: We join Colonel Ray Toliver, now with the two top German aces, as Colonel Toliver remarks to these two gentlemen about the decoration system in Germany during World War II. RAY TOLIVER: We are honored tonight to have with us the number one ace of the world, the Richthofen of World War II, Erich Hartmann, Lieutenant Colonel Erich Hartmann, and Colonel Gerhard Barkhorn, the number two ace of the world, both pilots of JG 52—and Barkhorn with many other units, as well as Hartmann, I believe. Erich, I see by the ribbons that you are wearing tonight that you flew over 1,400 combat missions. This is very easy to tell on the German decorations if you look very, very closely at the ribbons because on the lower left- hand corner—they wear an all dark blue or dark black ribbon with an eagle wing, which gives the number of missions or at least the area of the number of missions they've flown. They had two systems here. They had a system called a start. A start was where they took off on a mission. Then they had what they called rhubarbs, which were missions that ended in a combat with an enemy. Both of these men were with a fighter wing on the Russian front called JG, or Jagdgeschwader, 52. That's not very good German, is it, gentlemen? GERHARD BARKHORN: I would say Jagdgeschwader 52. RT: Ah, thank you, Colonel Barkhorn. Barkhorn, who flew how many missions, sir? GB: 1,104. RT: 1,104 missions. General Steinhoff [Johannes Steinhoff], our friend in the United States who is on the military NATO commission—he is the German representative on the NATO commission in Washington, D.C.—told me recently that Colonel Barkhorn is—was the most reliable. When he told you that he had shot down an aircraft at a certain specific point, the next day they could take a Fieseler Storch or some such aircraft, go to this point on the map, and there was an airplane. Colonel Barkhorn, the second ranking ace of the world with 301 aerial kills, also of JG 52, JG 44, which was the organization which Galland [Adolf Galland] formed of jet pilots in the elite when he was given a free-hand against the flyers of the remainder of the [unintelligible 00:07:53]. 6 0:07:55 NARRATOR: And then Commander Gene Valencia asked Mr. Erich Hartmann to express his feelings at this time. ERICH HARTMANN: Maybe I can answer you, but I'm really happy that we are, this night, all together now, and we have a really good friendship or comradeship. I find out that the old German saying is true, that really friendship by heart, you can only get if you have first a big fight. We fight each other, but now we are good friends. And I hope that this friendship nobody can more [unintelligible 00:08:29]. I don't know an English [laughter/unintelligible 00:08:31]. EAV: Erich, to me, that's one of the nicest things that has ever been said about any conflict or fight. Colonel Barkhorn, do you have any feelings in regard to the association, our rather impromptu meeting with gentlemen—or Knights of the Air, as you are and you represent, especially to the people of our country who have always looked up to you? GB: I found this day that we are the same people, I have to say. And now, after this fight some years ago, we sit in the same boat. And we can't go out and we will not go out. And so I hope we will have our friendship for all time. 00:09:20 EAV: Well, thank you very much, Colonel. Commander Neumann—or Major Neumann, would you be so kind as to reminisce a bit about some of the instructor chores and enjoyments you had during those days that Colonel Barkhorn has just mentioned? MAJOR NEUMANN: Okay. I remember quite well it was in the earlier time, '45, when this time our ex—or our—General Galland was forced out as chief of the German fighter pilots and he got permission to build up a special fighter group, including the liberty to pick out the pilots he want to have. At this time, we started this small unit of pilots. First place, of course, General Galland. Second place, this time, Colonel Steinhoff. And a couple of younger pilots. Later on, we received group of newcomers—or I guess I should say, former Wing Commanders or at least Group Commanders. And that in this group, my excellent Wing Commander, at this time, Major Barkhorn. And he was transferred to this special fighter group, leaded [sic] by General Galland. Practically nothing more than a big fighter squadron. And he never flew before in jet aircraft. And before he took off for his first combat mission, he only got twice the occasion to fly this bird for becoming familiar. So I remember it was his [unintelligible 00:11:36] intention to bring up this bird, this twin-engine bird in the air.