THE IMPACT of the POET-EDITOR: SOME QUESTIONS 81 06 Brito.Pmd

06 Brito.pmd to thefuriousdiatribesofofficialmedialike essays, lectures, andconferences, hasgrown andwhoseimportance proportionally most valuableassets,sustainingthelivelinessofitsproposalsthroughvolumes been treatedaselitist. This openeclecticsenseofbothformandcontentisoneits ciety findsdifficulttoassume. having This isdespitethistypeofavant-garde poetry new socialstatus,assimilatingdiverseforms,whichexchange values thatmassso- decades.Forlast few shouldactasavehicle ofcommunicationfora each,poetry rolesassimilate new andacceptanceofhistoricalclassissues,especiallyin the deciphering thepublicandprivate aspectsofasocietywhichhassorapidlyhadto to beconsciousoftheauthor/reader. These recurring issuesspeakoftheenigma ing assuchissuretoreceive multipleevaluations,discourseand reaction, andalso coherence oftheselforseekvalorization forthetechniqueused.Centeringonwrit- toshowmagazines thatshow the anemphasisoncompositionratherthantrying forms tocontinuallygeneratepossibilities. They haveeditedsmallpresses andlittle and continuallysearching forconnectionsbetweenwritingandsocialissues. and seeingknowledge asuncertainty, theillusionofstablepoeticforms, ruining ing thecorrespondencebetween thesignifierandsignified,decenteringself and Watten propitiated achange thatledtofocusonlanguageitself—thatis,undo- this period.Exactlywhatthatchangeconsistedofismore debatable. learns aboutAmericaninnovative isthat somedecisivechangeoccurred poetry in sincetheearly1970s. the editorshipofinnovative poetry The firstthingeverybody impulse toshow how thingsandideasarerelated. Bothpoetshavebeeninvolved in inclusion insteadofdiscriminationandexclusion. These positionsrespond toan ensuring continuitybutratherontestingoutandhighlightingvariety, favoring Watten oftheirapproachestohumanism,notbasedon areradicalintheirmistrust and politicalmeanings. They pointedoutthattheydevelopedapoeticsinsisted ing isnotcentered instylisticrenewal assuchbutinreaching ideological outtonew As editorsbothBernsteinand Watten haveinvoked arangeofcultural I simplify, butIdon’t unduly, thinkIdistort whenIsaythatbothBernstein The intellectualroutestakenbypoetslikeCharlesBernstein andBarrett Along with this, we should realize that the primary goalofLanguage writ- Along withthis,weshouldrealize thattheprimary R THE IMPACT OF THE POET-EDITOR: EVISTA 81 C ANARIA SOME QUESTIONS*

Universidad deLa Laguna DE E STUDIOS Manuel Brito I NGLESES The New Criterion , 62;April 2011,pp. 81-96 09/05/2011, 10:57 or Partisan Review .

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MANUEL BRITO 82 words asrawmaterialtobedeciphered. reflect upononeofthemostoutstandingmotifspoeticexperience:toexperience expressed theirdesire toblurthelimitsofwhatisliterary. to Andeditorshipserved nals. In anycase,themoststimulatingaspectofthiscollectiveisthattheyalways members byabsorptionintoacademicinstitutionsorrespectable establishedjour- has continuedtospread sincethen,despitethegradualofficializationofsomeits 1980s. However, production oftheseinnovative Ishouldsaythattheliterary poets long,infactonlyuptheearly American innovative assuchdidnotlastvery poetry zine, asobjectivereferences duetotheirappearingasorganofexpression, little magazine representation” 42). (Bartholomae on rejecting“received andbeloved notionsofvoice,self, expression, sincerityand 2009-10786), and that of FEDER for its partial fundingaswell. 2009-10786), andthatofFEDERforitspartial If wetakeBernstein’s associationwiththesmallpress Asylum’s Press orthe * IshouldthanktheSpanish ofScienceandInnovation Ministry (FFI- foritssupport L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E 82 , or Watten’s with This Press and 09/05/2011, 10:57 This maga- 06 Brito.pmd 1998); (2010); been limitedtoprintpublications—“American Poetry after1975,” Americanpoetry.significant roleincontemporary His experienceaseditorhasnot tion asFellow oftheAmericanAcademy &Sciencesin2006,speakofhis ofArts and lectures/talks since1975,throughouttheworld,numerous prizes, andhiselec- can avant-garde onhiswork,500readings writing.Over400essaysandreviews as aculturalforce, andhow increating hehasparticipated someofthemostAmeri- The Absent Father inDumbo happytohave beeninvolvedinsomeofhisworkthroughmyeditorship very the Whiskey inHeaven: Selected Poems andhasauthored Andrews magazine withBruce over 40books,mostrecently social issues.Bernsteinwasthecofounderofemblematic versity ofPennsylvania. He writespoetry, and andhaswrittenaboutpoetics,art, “Language Sampler,” creators, butalsoofmeanstoproduce culturallysignificantwork. of the21stcentury. perspectives, notonlyof Ihopeitwillbehelpful toseethenew ofacontinuingdiscussiontheperspectiveseditorshipintheseearlydecades part co-producer of Glazier, oftheElectronic Poetry Center(epc.buffalo.edu); andhasbeenhost (writing.upenn.edu/pennsund); andeditor, andco-founder, withLossPequeño (1986)—since heistheco-founderandco-editor, withAlFilreis, ofPENNsound The Politics ofPoetic Form: Poetry andPublic Policy Charles BernsteinisaNew York Citynative,whonow teachesattheUni- Close Listening: Poetry andthePerformed Word AN INTERVIEW WITH CHARLESBERNSTEIN LINEbreak 83 Paris Review and (Zasterle, 1991). This ledmetounderstandhispoetry Photo© 1994Manuel Brito. Close Listening 86(1982)and“43Poets (1984)” (2010)fromFarrar, Straus andGiroux. Iam , two radio poetry series. , tworadiopoetry This talkis (Oxford University Press, (Roof Books,1990);or L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E 09/05/2011, 10:57 Boundary 2 Boundary Boundary 2 Boundary All

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MANUEL BRITO 84 MB: B don’t know begins,whenteachingstopsand whereeditingendsandpoetry I CB: MB: My firstimpression isthataseditor youhavepaintedascenethatlocatedthepoets Would youexplain yourexplicitpurposeforeditorship,ifany, andhow thistropes of contemporary American poetsdemandsmore infiguringout sustained effort social issues,sometimesevenbefore your bookscameupfordiscussion... No group poetsmobilizingboththeconceptoftextand of printbookxerox service: in and being. it—well not“new” necessarily but aesthetic dimension:notdoingsomethingalready prescribed, butmaking ing poemsviaconstellation.For meeditingalwayshasafundamentally the editingitself, andthatiswhyit’s akindofpoetics;somethinglikemak- it, butitcanfeellikeyou are makingthecontextbyforce oftheactivity, and it’s justrecognizing it,that’s probablythemostreasonable waytoput phors: awayofweavingcontextintobeing.Maybe thatcontextwasthere archive, collect,display, acknowledge, appreciate. To mixallthesemeta- mightnotbe;tomakeconstellations;but alsoto same place,thatotherwise The keythingwitheditingisthedesire tobringthingstogether, inthe spaceforthoseworkswhichI’veaginary developedagreat enthusiasm. things: bringingdisparatestandstogether, or, better tosay, makinganim- between. It seemslikemuchofmydayisspentononeoranotherthese web site; aswellmyown “web log.”Andthatleaves outquiteabitin archive, andstilltheElectronic Poetry Center, withLossPequeño Glazier, a print); withAlFilreis andMichael Hennessey, with RégisBonvincino, where I edit,withEduardo Espina, involving endlesstimeinproduction andmailings.Jump tothe present, dozen related smallpresses andmagazines. intensivework, This wasallvery Segue (withJames Distributing service where Sherry), wedidacatalogof which alsohadanoutofprintbookxerox whichmorphedintothe service, wald; theninthelater‘70s published ourselves,butalsoPeter Seaton, RayDi Palma, and Ted Green- press editor, firstwithAsylum’s Press inthe1970s,where Susan Beeand I nal magazines atcollege(theofficialfreshman litmag, the editor of my high school newspaper ( the editorofmyhighschoolnewspaper not giventoo,therare daysthatare earned).It earlyforme.Iwas started It’scunning andconundrum. allofapieceinanygivenday(andthedays Or maybeit’s akindoftextualweaving,warpsandwefts,sparkscrests, engulfed inandby, andwhich,byakindofwindenergy, powers whatIdo. or adequatelyshore myborders againstthewaves ofpoeticenergyIfeel Maybe it’s aderangementofpersonality;myinabilitytodrawboundaries stage. The relation ofonetotheother isrhythmic:anoscillatingrhythm. whenorganizingissetaside andcontemplationtakescenter essays start, some actsofreading experience,discussion,etc.? andanentirely ephemeralaffair, around L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E 84 Sibila L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E , awebmagazinefromSao Paulo (formally making ithappen S/N: NewWorldPoetics Writing , which,asyoumention,alsohadanout Science Survey ,

when Iwasasenior).Asmall 09/05/2011, 10:57 PennSound The Harvard Yard Jour- withBruce Andrews, , makingitcomeinto )

, aprintjournal; and twoliterary , adigitalsound 06 Brito.pmd CB: B Poetry inNorth America inthepostwaryearshasremained remarkably mobile, CB: MB: L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Editors andpublisherscannotafford theincreasingly difficultiesinvolvedinto- you assumedtheevidenceofbecomingmore credible, marketable? elementsweremany conceptualandformal incommonthesepoets.How have Even thoughthegroup designationiscontroversial, agrees mosteveryone that what you have done,andwhy bien sur more thanmappingan already existingformation.Something ofafantasy, the focuscanbeoneditorialselectionanddistribution. Much ofwebspace duction anddistributioncostsare minimal,compared toprintandpostage; hasbeenmovingtive, inexorablytotheweb, smallpress poetry wherepro- not soeasytomakeupforthislosthistory. For thelastfifteen years, innova- were inthisandthattookagreat notbeabletofullyparticipate toll,asitis top totheweb. Unfortunately, duetothefascistdictatorshipinSpain, you response toavailablepublicationtechnologiesfrommimeoxerox todesk- unprofitability. Talkabout itable culturalproducts; indeed,thrivinginthefaceoftheirunpopularity/ has beenastonishinglyversatileinsustainingsmallscale,unpopular/unprof- fromtheaestheticachievementsofpoems.Radicalsmallpresspoetry apart gies ofthealternate,smallpress, poetsare avaluablemodel,structurally, even entrepreneurial, ingenious. The socialnetworksandpublishingmethodolo- culture vs.digitalculture? products, anewpublishingethos?How doyouseethecontroversial issueofprint been takenover bylargercompanies.Is thisatimeforpromotion ofnew day’s economiccrisis.Prestigious smallpublishershavedisappeared orsimply Basil.waiters comeandgo,talkingofArt might bebetteroffatthebeachinBoca,gettingearlybird specialasthe whom whatIhavelongtakenforgivenisnotagiven. Though Idothink more youngpeoplethanofmyown generation,youngerpeoplefor even myown!, from thepast.Andteachingoffersbenefitofbeingaround current lead,togowithintuitionsofthemomentratherthanreceived ideas, make itdifficulttoseeemergingformations,whichiswhyit’s besttoletthe have longbeenamarqueename(thoughnottopbilling!);butitalsocan ing intheCold War andresistance toanOfficial Verse Culture ofwhichI mewell, especiallyintermsofakindparanoidground- serves That partly conditions. AsIgetolder, Ifindmyselfstuckintheagonismsofyouth. andasacontinuation. a swerve The hard partisresponding topresent form. But that’s whyformesubsequenteditorial projectshavebeenasmuch so thatbringsmebacktothelessthanidealizedrealityIhelped a fatuoussenseofentitledboys clubremained aviralpresence inourmidst, though Iseefromarecent memoirbyoneofourNew York companythat and coterie(thedogponyshow oftheavant-garde) wastheinspiration, that, likethestatuethatreplacesdampairofdawn.Resisting school school orcoterie,andit’s hard tofindagraciouswaygetoutfromunder . That wasthefun.In retrospect, itseemsmore fixed, moreofa 85 was aneditorialproject:willingsomethingintobeing epaté labourgeoisie , thanthe Language poetsovLanguage . . There hasbeenanexquisite 09/05/2011, 10:57 er thelast40years.

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MANUEL BRITO 86 B Absolutely. Ialwayssay:don’t thinkabouthow muchyouwillmakebutjust CB: MB: Homogenization ofproduct!Even the forms oftheunconventional getcon- CB: B Communitiesisavexed term:youcan’t livewithandyou can’t dowithout. CB: MB: MB: Within this context, is it important thatpoetsunderstandthereWithin thiscontext,isitimportant is, afterall, How doyou understand editing,asalonelyactivity, focusedonbecominginnova- You havepointedoutinyour essay, “Provisional Institutions: Alternative Presses 1912 poem: where theowners hadchainedtheexits.So IthinkofJames Oppenheim’s fire, wheretory somanymostlyyoungwomenworkersdiedinasweatshop some ways. Today ofthe isthe100thanniversary Triangle Shirtwaist Fac- tial andsustainingthanthoseoutsideitrealize; likethegreyeconomyin the capitaleconomy, ofasemioticeconomythatisfarmore ispart substan- tural capitaltoo,whichisquitereal. Andtheworkyoumake,ifoutsideof not tolosetoomuch no money? than forarichmantoenterthekingdomofGod.” But, liketheman,says,“easier foracameltogothroughtheeyeofneedle sometimes itis.So there isalwaysarisk,andtheoddsare nonetoogood. non-standard canseemsomessy, chaotic,disturbing...Self-indulgent. And formulaic products thatare soappealing,seductive. Andtheunformulaic, just inothers,Imeanprimarilyourselves, inmyself. There are somany But thepataqueeronormative isalwaysonthehorizon;andIdon’t mean inqueer. andquery the pata-from tokeepthequerulous Alfred Jarry; trying ventional. LatelyIhavebeentalkingaboutthepoeticsof“pataque(e)rical”— sense: theyare elective affinities.In your neighbourhoodorschoolpre- communitiesare, atbest,“uncommunities”Literary inJean-Luc Nancy’s editor isthatofcreating communities...amItoowrong? tively competitive? Generally speaking,Ishouldsaythatmyview onyour roleas especially thethreatening standardization ofliterature forbulk-buyingpublic and Poetic Innovation,” thatsomedifficultiesderive frommanagement,and the smallpress. yearonPennSound. Millions ofmp3downloadsevery And thenumberofreaders/listeners isprobablybiggerthanweeverhadwith extraordinary area onthewebofindependent,non-commercial production. lution toward consumptionratherthanproduction. Yet remains an poetry boxes below theofficialcontent.I-padsandI-phonesturncomputerrevo- the “issues” are posed.Andofcoursethat“everyone” isinthecomments proscribed setofissuesmayeffectivelyblockdissentagainstthetermsinwhich their sayinunlimitedcomments’ fields.But gettingtheirsayona everyone gets promotes theabsenceofselectionasdemocraticvista,everybody Yes, itisbread wefightfor—butforroses,too! Small andlove spiritsknew. art andbeautytheirdrudging forbread. throughoursingingtheirancientcry Go crying As wecomemarching,unnumberedwomendead 86 . Stemming yourlosses:that’s thekey. But there iscul- 09/05/2011, 10:57 . 06 Brito.pmd B You’re righttothinkofextensions CB: MB: Yes; andI’d addalsoanarchivalspace.So muchofthewebimaginesitselfas CB: MB: I shouldalsonoticethattheover centers 20-yearexistenceoftheelectronic poetry Your own involvementaseditorintheElectronic Poetry Center, foundedin1995, very common amongpoetsinEurope.very Still, Icouldn’t have thecloserela- not. Iseehow muchthislimitswhatIdo. But thenEnglishhasbecome are bilingualwhileIam place inEnglish,somyconversationalpartners of myown abysmalmonolingualism,sincesomuchof whatIdotakes ation withGraça CapinhainCoimbra).Oneoftheproblemsistyranny with poetsinCanada,theU.K.,Russia, andPortugual (thoughtmyaffili- tion alsoincludetheOEIgroupinSweden andlong-termconnections early project isasmuchsubsumedsubsuming.My keypointsofintersec- the group. What doyouthinkonthis? interpretive andfacilitatingthecriticalgesture circles of subsumingyourpoetry ieso fdimension of in theU.S.,Australia, New Zealand,andFrance hasprovided anallegorical Philadelphia. land isasmuchmypoetics“neighbourhood” asthoseinNew York and ish, English,or, toa lesser extent,Portuguese), orwithLeeviLehtoinFin- S/N: NewWorldPoetics in Brazil (asinourmagazine, to thinkofitasnonnationalmore thantrans-.My workwithRégisBonvicino chive. You are alsoquiterighttonotethetransnationalaspect,thoughIlike transactive; attheEPC,asPennSound, ourfirstattentionistothear- you are focusingoninteracting communities intended tore-open thedialoguebetween theSouthandNorth. Onceagain because you are editing the print journal, because youare editingtheprintjournal, worked creativity andaforumforresearch? “transnational” Imentionedtheterm transnational andtranscultural context. Was thisCenter modelledforbothnet- toseehowhas served practitioners haveshared theircreativity withina life. ties andfamiliesalliancesthatmakeupthefabricofoureveryday theyformakindofcounter-reality totheactualcommuni- and imaginary; sional, are indeedcreated, are syncretic. Poetry communitiesare speculative But Iagreewithyou thatthesepoeticconstellations,sonecessarilyprovi- on taste,preference, notexplicitgoalsorshared geographic/civicspace. unlikeminded individualstoward anamorphousaesthetichorizon.It isbased word communityisthatitcanbeaconstellationof here, ofapoetry a unionorfightingenvironmentaldestruction. The beauty, ifIcanusethat community willbetoward collective actionorpolicygoals,suchasforming political alliancebut,atleastinaprogressive context,thecriteriafor about choosing. You mightcometogether withlike-mindedpeopleina at leastonewithaestheticratherthanregional orlocalcommitments,isall tally different. You don’t community, chooseyourneighbours,whilealiterary communitybut whichisfundamen- may underlietheconceptofliterary cinct orpoliticalalliance,thecommunityisgiven andpresent inawaythat L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E 87 (the Americas: everything translatedfrom ortoSpan- (theAmericas:everything Sibila L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E ), withEduardo Espina,ofUruguay, in , that is, an international apparatus, thatis,aninternational by S/N: NewWorldPoetics ... 09/05/2011, 10:57 , butwherethat , whichis

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MANUEL BRITO 88 ion, thecosmococcicasmuchheteroclite. fate withthestars,asifourquestwasforcosmologymuchcommun- networks orcommunities,exactly, constellations. We’ve butvirtual castour together inwaysthatwouldhave beendifficultinthepast. These are not of warpedspacegoingonhere where poeticaffiliationsarebringingus could havebeenwritingtoyou orafriendinLosAngeles.So there isakind his reply here,well, I wassototallycurrent withdevelopmentsinpoetry Burmese; totallyunexpected.But whenIcontactedZeyarLynn by email, then outofthebluethisFall Iwasgivenabookofmyessaystranslatedin ing conferences, translations,andastream ofvisitingscholarsatPenn. And for exchange between ChineseandAmericanpoeticsscholars,involving anassociation,withMarjorie andNie ZhenzhaoandLuo Lianggong also astrong connection over thelastdecadewithChina,includingform- as—because Idon’t haveto,sootherthingstakepriority.) Ishouldmention don’t youlearnRussian? isprobably assimple,andindefensible, The truth IsaidsomethinglikethistoMarjorie(When Perloff, shesaid,thenwhy tionship IfeelwithArkadiiDragomshchenko ifhedidn’t speakEnglish. 88 09/05/2011, 10:57 06 Brito.pmd allels /“X” tion. Watten’s publishedworks, to askwhatkindoftranslationisgoingonbetweentheworldanditsrepresenta- for thelimitsoflanguage.His makesthereader tofeeltheurge tolooktwice, poetry that continuallygeneratepossibilities,whilerevealing thepoet’s intentiontosearch cultural theory, film,andgreat books. brid texts,New York theory, School,word/image music/jazz,literary texts,new him: modernism,postmodernism,proto-Languagewriting,Languagehy- ful poeticwork. These are theworksorcategorieshefound“most formative” for to himasapoet.His response clarifiestheformalandtheoretical issuesinhisthought- wayne.edu/fac_pages/ewatten/posts/post36.html>. the littlemagazine testimony tovarious ideologicalpreoccupations.In the early1970sheco-edited sis onthemodeofpoeticcompositionthatsetsofffromexplorationtoappearas Under Erasure Hejinian thecriticaljournal (1988), ing positionsatSan Francisco State University, theUniversity ofCalifornia,San Under Erasure Barrett Watten wasaskedbyPeter Davis toselectthe“most essential” books 1 Should you wishtoamplifythispoint,pleasevisit Watten’s site:

1971-1990 Total Syntax 1 Watten invokesarangeofculturalforms from1981to1998.He hasheldteach- (1975), (1997), (1982), (1985)havealwayslaidempha- Decay Bad History Progress 09/05/2011, 10:57 (1977), (1985), (1998), Plasma /Par- Conduit Progress/

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MANUEL BRITO 90 BW: In In BW: MB: Do youmean,how didImakecontactwithpoetry, orhow diditmakecon- BW: MB: was awarded theRené Wellek Prize in2004. essays, Diego, andiscurrently professor ofEnglishat Wayne State University. His bookof Yes, how didyou Grenier, comeintocontactwithpoetslikeRobert RonSilliman, You now liveinindustrialDetroit, butyou were inLongBeach, California born The Constructivist Moment:The Constructivist From Material Text toCultural Poetics poetry happen”poetry forme.AsIputitin high school).But ittookthepersonalconnectionwithGrenier to“make lings oftheBeat movement from afar, andlaterconnectedwith first “material” wasinthe50s, whenIheard connectionwithpoetry ink- interested inthepostwaravant-garde (here, however, Imightrecallthatmy brilliant Thomas Parkinson, tobecome aspecialistontheBeats. Istarted Miles, whopatronizedtheSan Francisco Renaissance, asdidthe erraticbut course ontheEnglishlyric,aswell,from thewell-regarded criticJosephine topayattentionthem.Itooka at Berkeley atthetime,andIstarted Duncan, W.S. Merwin, Robert Creeley, andDenise Levertov were reading film ofthatname—thatIscarcely how knew toevaluate.Poets likeRobert from thebeyond—IamthinkingofmessagesOrféepicksupinCocteau’s before ImetGrenier, wasbeginningtoemergelikeaseriesofsignals poetry maneuvers, whichfinallyresolved afterthe1970draftlottery. At Berkeley, fight in Vietnam. seriesoflegal Iresistedthedraft,throughatorturous ated at20,onlytofacethepossibilityofdraftandbeingconscripted life. In addition,Iwasquiteyoung—I collegeatage16andgradu- started ”How doIknow whatIknow” wasaquestiononemightask of everyday the 60swasaperiodofgreat politicalandevenepistemologicalunsureness— liberation ratherthanemergingfrom adictatorship. Onecanimaginethat though we were respondingtothe Vietnam War andmultipledemandsfor likethe“LaMovida”and upforgrabs—somewhat momentafterFranco, wasinprocess tile mixofradicalpoliticsandculturalchange;everything Inquiry turbulent time,whichIalsowroteaboutinanessaypublished whom ImetasanundergraduatestudentatBerkeley in1968. This wasa Bob Perelman, andothers... tact withme,assomething“empirically given,”asexistingintheworld? wasakindofempiricalgiven foryou? ask ifpoetry in 1995. educationinscienceandthehumanitiesmakesme This combinatory and finallygotyour Ph.D.inEnglish fromtheUniversity Berkeley ofCalifornia, then youbecameenrolledinthe Writers Workshop attheUniversity ofIowa, (in 1948). You attheUniversity firststudiedbiochemistry Berkeley, ofCalifornia, early 70s—whenIcameintocontact,inreal timeandspace, withthegroup tion ofJosephine Miles, andfoundmy waybacktotheBay Area inthe IleftBerkeley fortheIowapoetry: Writers Workshop, ontherecommenda- isapassionunlikeanyother.”of poetry Lifechanged,materially, dueto The Grand Piano , “The , “The Turn toLanguageinthe1960s.”Poetry ofavola- wasapart 90 , Idescribemyearlyrelationship withRobert Grenier, The Grand Piano 09/05/2011, 10:57 , “The transmission , “The Howl (2003), Critical in 06 Brito.pmd W Your questionmightbebroken intotwo components:whatis BW: MB: MB: W You ofmyeditorialworkon somekindofallegory seemtobeconstructing BW: Since 2006you were involvedin Let’s andessaysin talkaboutyourdecisiveroleaseditorpublishingpoetry reaching. The mostthatIwouldsayisittook “the deathoftheauthor” the “author function” amongthetenofus,butIthinkthatwouldbeover- ism” in the avant-garde Asforthelatter:Idon’t orcontextualizes art. seea“human- kindthatframesmovementsopens upforhistoricalconstruction—the of could havebeenwritteninthepast.In thegapbetween thetwo,aspace The present isboththepresentofwritingand ofthetext,which “the present” andhistoricalperiodizationinourcollectiveautobiography. On theformer:I’ve beenthinking—andwriting—onthetensionbetween humanism (ratherthansomekindofradicalscepticismthepostmodern). the kindofpositiveclaimstoknowledge thatonemightassociatewith Piano ism, especiallyonecentered oncommunity, whichisstillprevalent today? don’t youhavethesensationofthatperiodasanimatedby auniversalhuman- doscopic alternativesproposedbytheauthors.In reading thedifferent passages, I mightsaythateachvolumecontributesmore privatelythanever tothekalei- been completedwithtenvolumes in2010.Ihavebeenfollowing theseriesand well beprofitable. intheLanguageschool,itmight not yetbeenaproperaccountofallegory tion, ontheonehand,andWalter Benjamin,onthe other. Whilethere has mains. Such bytheinfluence ofdeconstruc- areading wouldbesupported andculturaldo- sion ofthematerialtext—intoawiderangeliterary of shred ofmythorbard inanyofthatwork.However, theinterpretive work about number7untildiscontinuanceat12. There wasnotone of thematerialtextorsignifier, atleastonceitconsolidateditspoetics works wecomposed.Let’s say thatwouldstemfrom the there wasstillapossibilityofkindallegory Olson. Myth, inourwork,wouldmorphintothe“material signifier,” but intellectually respectable interestsoftheNew Charles Americans,particularly straints of“official verseculture” butalsofollowing onmanyofthemore of myth—inthelate60sand70s,understandablyareaction tothecon- there wasasignificantinfluenceofthattradition—andtheentire context violently againstthebardic remembering tradition.But that itisworth tainly unusualinthecontextofLanguageschool,whichreactedalmost (1971-1982) and emergence. of poetswhowouldbecometheLanguageschool,atleastinits West Coast This essential definitionforyour poetry? nosing Poetics Journal andlater doingwithtime;anddoesitsuseofnarrative anddescriptioninvolve

innovative culture inthosetwenty-seven years,orwas editing anactof The Grand Piano 91 Poetics Journal , inretrospect,couldbeseenasakindofallegoricalexpan- Poetics Journal . There mightbe a“posthumanism” indistributing , andyour useoftheterm“visionary” iscer- The Grand Piano This (1982-1998). Were diag- you avisionary wasentirely concernedwiththepoetry serialpublication,whichhas 09/05/2011, 10:57 The Grand This

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MANUEL BRITO 92 W Somehow through mycritical writings“the reader” isshiftedfromtheopen BW: MB: In fact,there isquitealotoutontheLouisZukofskyfêteof1978,atwhich BW: MB: Your detailedpresentation oftheLanguageschoolasanever-ending avant-garde To obtainanideaofthecomplexityand anti-officialemergenceoftheLanguage performance, audience, institutions, and so forth). Iwouldsaythatsimply audience,institutions,andsoforth). performance, oftheavant-garde intext,discourse,listserv,server assystem(articulated something closertosystemstheory, where thereader isasecond-order ob- equate accountofhow the“writerly” work isprocessedbythereader, to position of“the readermakesmeaning,” acommonplaceandwhollyinad- in continuousprocess? and Text.” How isthereader ofthisavant-garde inducedtobecomeanobserver Secret oftheEqual Sign: History L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Between Discourse ultimately,multiauthorship, andtheListserv isfascinatinglypresented in“The due totheintersubjective discourseandtextualmaterialitypropitiated by doing. thatlevelofcontact,butitwasstillworth public displaytrumped sharing talkaboutourkidsandtheirpolitics.Unfortunately thepoeticsof son, Asa—whohadheldhisown, atage16,theconference. We started about thewholething.Iremember Baraka’s repeatedcomplimentsonmy That’s anunderstatement. There wassomething charmingandevencomedic eral attemptedtooverdramatize thefaultlines betweenhispositionandmine. held animpromptuteach-in.Amiriwaspretty amped,andIthink ingen- the schedule,where wetookover acafeteriaattheUniversity ofMaine and but more widelyinsocialterms.So we devisedanalternativeevent, noton the 60s,wastoencourage“speech” asapublicact,inthecontextofpoetry that discussion. What IthinkbothAmiriandwanted,ataconference on event. AsforthedebatewithBaraka—I wouldbeinterested toreturn to stand—and Idofeelthatamdonewithprocessingtheimplicationsof places where thisisdiscussedin cans andthewriterlyinterests oftheLanguageschool. There are several inaugurating afaultlinebetween thespeech-basedpoeticsofNew Ameri- ence streamed fromtheroom—waswidelytakenthatmomentonas which Ihave neverrecanted. The resultingcollectivetrauma—astheaudi- Duncan meoffthestageformyMarxist reading triedtorush ofZukofsky— through yourlife? been repeated more recently withAmiri Baraka. How didthesestoriesfilter guage, andthepresence ofideologicalissuesinpoetry. This samesituationhas Apparently youirritatedDuncanwithyour defenceoftheautonomylan- and theLanguagepoets. You havenottalkedtoomuchonthishistoricalevent. to-then dominantpoeticcurrent inSanFrancisco, heralded Duncan, byRobert toreviewpoets, itisinstructive thescenarioforantagonismbetween theup- notassumed. community ashistoricallyconstructed, fail entirely. Iseemore “socialism” than“humanism” there—that is,Isee as historical.Asforcommunity, itisalwaysbeingreinvented—and could movement—from poststructuralismtoourpresent moment—couldbeseen to imagineawork withtenauthors,buttheyare notidentical.Perhaps this 92 The Grand Piano 09/05/2011, 10:57 , soIwillletthattext 06 Brito.pmd W Thedream hereisonethatwasperpetuatedearlyonwithfantasiesofthe BW: MB: Do youmean,whatistherelation ofinnovative poeticstodigitalmedia?In BW: MB: Maybe themembersofLanguageschooldidnotintendtolaydown teachings, In aquitesimilarspirityoupresent American innovative poetsasprecursors in in usingdigitalmedia.Irecently wroteonhissamplingprocedures tive poetry Low forparadigmsofpoeticsthatinformthepossibilitieslaterinnova- tinued. Ontheotherhand,Inow looktoearlierfigures likeJackson Mac indigitalmedia,Idon’tsibilities ofpoetry seethatinitiativehascon- digital technologyitself. While therewasaninitialredefinition ofthepos- media works—somewhatbust,muchliketheboom-and-bustdynamicof zation oftheacademy. The institutionalfocusofpoeticshasshiftedconsid- garde, hasbecomeincreasingly tenuouswiththedownsizing and corporati- otherwise. The positionofavant-garde poet,oreven criticoftheavant- in abusandtakeover theMLA! What hashappenedbeenrelatively fantasy, butitwasindeedoutoftouchwithreality. We were goingtocome instant canonizationoftheLanguageschool;Icouldassign namestothat center are obliterated maywe askwhichisthenextdream? programs. From trendy outsiderstoacademicinsiders... andoncemargin were marginaltextshavebecomecentral readers andtouniversity tomodern create followers orbesuccessfulinthemarket.How doyouexplainthatwhat close reading. rather thansimplyfocusingontheinterpretation ofsinglepoemsthrough create poemsbutasareading strategy, awayofreadingacrosspoetic ters number ofstand-outworks suchasBrian KimStefans’s troubling toseethattheinitialboomin digitalpoetics—whichproduceda ris’s editedvolume tion tosuchapoeticswouldbe.In fact,IpublishedachapterinDeeMor- toimaginewhatmycontribu- andstarted several conferences one-poetry the early00s,itseemedthatthere wasaboomindigitalpoetics;Iattended comment more ontheseissues? approachesdistribution, newformal inpoetry, politicalpower... Would you some ideologicalremarks sodecisiveforthesepoetsregarding book alternative texts.And andhypermedia yourattentionto youturn analogous tohypertexts that sameessay, sincetheyelaborated adiscourseandwroteintechniqueclearly bution, notmerely radical forms. garde agency, whichworks byenactingnetworksofproduction anddistri- media), Imakingacaseforhistoricalaswellformalaccountofavant- as the90sPoetics Listserv, the00sblogosphere, orthecurrent useofsocial tion. In writingabouttheavant-garde intermsofspecificinstitutions(such andmeaningofthisposi- sider boththesocialandhistoricalconstruction cliché.However,poststructuralist andcon- Iwouldalsoliketogofarther fromstep forward themerelysubjectiveinterpretations ofthe oftheavant-gardeto locatesuchapositionfortheobserver asasystemis Stanzas forIris Lezak , TalanMemmott’s 93 New Media Poetics Lexia toPerplexia , andhaveusedthemintheclassroomnotonlyto aboutthattime.It hasbeenabit , orGiselle Beiguelmann’s public 09/05/2011, 10:57 Dream Life ofLet- oeuvres

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MANUEL BRITO 94 W I seemyrewritingofmodernism,first,as a socialandhistoricalact,butit BW: MB: If there isanysenseamongyoungerwritersthatSilliman isholdingthem BW: MB: Are youreferring heretoRon Silliman’s “School ofQuietude” and“post- BW: MB: How act;andhow isyour doessucha anemancipatory rewriting ofmodernism Yes, that’s right... Why doyouthinkthatcontemporary tendenciesintheU.S.likeSchoolof much useofthismisreading. modernistcriticshavemade politicallyconservative them birth.Certain formal procedures asleadingback,inevitably, tothetraditionthatgave ratherthanemancipatory,servative, aboutsuchaninterpretation ofradical formal invention ismerely aplayontradition. There issomething con- some oftheEastCoastLanguagewriters.In suchareading, Mac Low’s reading ofsuchamove, whichIwouldassociatewiththeformalism of conceptual momentofthe60s.But there isalsoamore aestheticorformal or overwriting, shares acommonground withMac Low, comingfromthe move, andthinkanaspectofmyown work,anditsconcernwithrewriting when herewrote Pound’s Cantosin aboutit.Let’story imaginethisissomethingthatJackson Mac Low did interests methatyouseeitsconceptualnature ofwhatisemancipa- aspart York modernism)? eration (let’s saytheEast CoastLanguagewriters,withtheirclosertiestoNew rewriting stakeoutadiscrepant approach thatdiffersfromothersofyour gen- Nonsense—this isformalismwithavengeance. procedure”of poetry isequaltoadeathsentence,evenforLanguagepoets. new schools.Finally, theideathatLanguagepoets have“reached thelimits to andenthusiasticabouttheemergenceofFlarf andconceptualwritingas the subjectivevagaries oftaste.On attentive theotherhand,Ron wasvery Avant,” “moderately interesting”—neither ofwhichsaysanythingexcept real meaningof“SchoolQuietude” is“moderately boring,”andfor“post- thing mightbeplaced,dependingonwhetheryoulikeitornot.In fact,the back, itmightbeinthedeployment ofsuchcategories,intowhich any- terms,onhisblog? such portmanteau Avant,” whichhemakesaboutasmuchuseofhumanlypossible,for guage poetsreally procedures? reach thelimitsofpoetry poets? Didtheyfailtoprovide anewsubstantialorientationordidtheLan- Quietude andPost-Language havenotbeenabletoreplace theLanguage poetry other thancreative writing. This isafantasythatneedstoend. toobtainatenure-trackteachingpositioninfield labor thatisnecessary maintain thatillusion—andactuallydenigratingtotheamountofsheer projection ofpower—which Iamsure whowantto isprofitableto the few system, andIhappentobeoneofthem.“Academic insiders” isbothawild of avant-garde poet/criticswhohavemadetheirwayintotheuniversity fewothersareor poetics(asIandavery doing). There are, infact,ahandful who haveentered theacademyare teachingcreative writing,notliterature totheAWP,erably from theMLA asthegenerationof“post-avant” poets 94 Words ’nEnds forEz 09/05/2011, 10:57 . Iendorsethat 06 Brito.pmd W I have beenwritinginmultiplegenres—poetry, poetics,blogposts(which BW: MB: In myargumentin BW: MB: In your poetry thereIn hasbeenanoverload yourpoetry takingforgranted ofinformation, the Your intentionforwitnessingandanonymityisanotherbigissue. You mention in good answertoaquestionthatisratherbroadinitsimplications. of anoverwriting of William Carlos Williams’s 2001-8, duringwhichtime I plantocompletethisyear, is concern amongmany. poems,which The titleofmycurrent MSofshorter Null inGermany, the “zero hour” afterthewar),thatwouldonlybeone point inthepresent, andinthehistoricalpast(IamthinkingofStunde 80). While Iaminterested intheattenuationofhistoricaltoanull and writing,infact,compared tothesixformativeyearsitrefers to,1975- quite abitlongertoproducethanIimagined—twelveyearsofreflection necessity ofcoordinating ofthetenauthorsinvolved. theefforts It took ing creative project,andithadtobeproducedinthattimeframeduethe autobiography. In thelastdecade, you citeonmytravelstoBerlinandtheformerEastGermany),criticism, beenapproaching tosilenceintheselateryears? anddisrupts, that erupts instantaneous history” ( grammar andsyntax,emphasizingthereality ofthepresent instant,“an actin ofhistory,seems closertoaproject basedontheheterogeneousruins downsizing reading yourworkinterpretation ofliterary andothercultural artifacts O.J. Simpson on TV, asyoudevelopin War, the1994LosAngeles experience,the1990-1991Gulf riotsor California ortravel,memory suchasyourown education,your viewonEast Berlin, your sinceyoutakeupspecifichistoricalmoments,throughhistorically contextualized discontinuity ofthetexttopast.However, approachis thisconstructivist claim ofculturalcriticswhothinkpoetry ideology critique. The denialofthiseffect,aswell,mightbethestrong enactsaneffective isthebasisforbeliefthatpoetry tain relief”—this signifierstandsinacer- through theforegroundingofsignification.“The one canknow withincapitalismisprecisely limitedtofalseconsciousness— critique thataroseinthe80s—how tobeoutsidefalseconsciousness,ifall tique initself. Ibelievepoetics,then,solves amajorquestionofideology determined byunresolved contradictions “ideology,” afterMarxist criticslike Terry Eagleton,we seethatitisboth tion,” afterRoman Jakobson. Ifwebringthe“poetic function” inlinewith aboutthe nature ofthe“poeticof it—tellsussomethingimportant func- Berkeley—which inthepublicperformance exceeded thestyleofhispoetry your materialistworkquatheoretical impulses? Total Syntax project istitled wrote The Grand Piano thatstyleincludesideology, isthere aprovocative toread effort 95 Zone Total Syntax ; itworks (intheform withtheoverwriting ofhistory Conduit . A more elaborate, and partly completed,poetic . Amoreelaborate,andpartly nothing Politics ofNothing 68). Has thisinstant,Benjaminian “jetzt” , thestyleofCharlesOlson’s reading at The Grand Piano wasindeedthepoliticalagenda,andwe Bad History lacks and amomentofideologycri- sucheffectiveagency. Paterson ; itrefers totheBush Era, wasmymostengross- . OnceIhavebeenre- 09/05/2011, 10:57 ). Ihopethisgivesa

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MANUEL BRITO 96 BW: Deconstruction was an initially brilliant, then somewhat obstructive, andfi- wasaninitiallybrilliant,thensomewhatobstructive, Deconstruction BW: MB: WhatIthinkyou are gettingathere issomethinglikethis:inmywork, there BW: MB: W AmIthedarkgeniusofLanguageschool?Ifso,thankyou.aminterested BW: MB: There newreading isalwayssomethinghappeninginyourwork,withevery the Windows, frames, squares, paralleles, appearandreappear inyourwork.How- After fourdecadesinwhichyourworkhasclamoured itsmeaningfulness, toassert reread, yes—thatishow Iread thatcanbecontinually the actofinterpretation. Iaminterestedinapoetry my poetry, andthatwouldobtaininanywork thatchallengesthereader in ofthesamehistoricalandspatialeffectsthatyouseein As such,itpartakes profit (butwithoutbuyingintoitasadiscourseof“mastery” by anymeans). nally historicallyspecificphilosophicalproject thatonecanconsultwith tional consciousnessismissingfrom everything? topography poem,ortheoriginalinten- whenyoubegintowriteaparticular of languageasasystemDerridiandifférance. Do you have someideaor emerges... Imeanthatbothtemporalization andspatializationenactyouruse words change,thestructure simplybecomesaseriesofsigns,anotheridentity the conflictsanddifferences between them. They are differential. These frames,then,were generatedbytheactstheyrepresent, butalsoby material andhistorical,evenasthesemaybeelucidatedbytheapriori. thatproduced them?Ithinkpoetry,terial history finally, sides withthe we sidewithKantontheapriorinature ofcategories,ordoweseeama- cognition, componentsofanabstractcapacityperceive andknow? Do systems, discourses,regimes ofknowing? Orare theyoriginalelementsof came thisemphasisonframes?Do theyderivefrom theconflictbetween prevent it,bytheirown materialorphenomenologicalexistence. Whence interpreting, cognizing,representing ofsomething;orthattheyobscure could implytwothings:thatthesefigures forframingenabletheviewing, dows, squares, haveareality parallellines,andsoforth) oftheirown. This interpret, understand,orrepresent. It isasiftheframesthemselves(win- representation are presented,buttheyare detachedfromwhattheysee, are manyinstances where “frames” forviewing,interpretation, cognition, unbearable reality, orconfidencegenerated offrictionbetween by thissort worlds... to seeanddiscover. ofthe Iwonderifthisimpliesanactofconstruction of non-immediateviewing. This motivatesplayfulcomplicationanddemands ever, theseapparently allegoricalandgraphic codesofperception imposethetask thing? Idoubtit. in theworkingsofnegativityitseffects.But canthataccountforevery- are youstilldirecting mattersfrom offstage? thetic stateoffree play. Iwantthechallenge ofmywork tobedecisive. the confrontationwithinterpretation,ratherthanmerely remain inanaes- There isnofinalhorizon, butthereisanobligationtoactdecisivelyafter time—because timeandspaceare factored intothepoemsasdifferentials. 96 Progress or Under Erasure 09/05/2011, 10:57 , asdifferentevery