Tuesday Volume 528 17 May 2011 No. 159

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 17 May 2011

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agree that that is a gross misuse of restorative justice, House of Commons and what can he do to ensure that the same thing does not happen to other people? Tuesday 17 May 2011 Mr Blunt: I read about that case in the papers. It is plainly important for restorative justice to carry the The House met at half-past Two o’clock confidence of victims. They should not be placed in a position in which they are required to take part in PRAYERS restorative justice disposals; restorative justice should be a right for them to exercise when they see fit, and when it is clearly in their interests to do so. [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Is the Minister aware that many victims greatly value the restorative justice process, because it brings the person Oral Answers to Questions who has caused them harm face to face with the harm that he has caused? Does the Minister recognise the need for it to be mainstreamed into the system rather JUSTICE more than it is at present? There are many areas in which it is currently not available to benches and courts.

The Secretary of State was asked— Mr Blunt: I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend. It is important to bear in mind that restorative justice is Restorative Justice a right for victims. I believe that if, in the circumstances described by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De 1. Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): What plans Piero), a victim wished to exercise the right to engage in he has for the use of restorative justice to reduce the restorative justice and to demand an account from an level of offending; and if he will make a statement. offender who was pleading guilty or had been found [55666] guilty, he or she should have the opportunity to do so. The victim impact statement, as part of the restorative The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice justice process for the benefit of the victim, must become (Mr Crispin Blunt): We are committed to increasing the a much clearer element of our justice system. use of restorative justice throughout the criminal justice system. Restorative justice should play a part in activities Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I agree ranging from informal disposals administered by front-line with the Minister that restorative justice can be a positive police officers to enabling serious offenders to face up intervention, and I was pleased to be able to attend a to the consequences of their actions. There is growing restorative justice session in Wormwood Scrubs organised evidence of its potential to cut reoffending and crime, by volunteers from the Prison Fellowship on 28 March. and to enhance the role of victims in the delivery of Unfortunately, however, it was the last such session to justice. take place in a prison in the London region. Can the Minister explain why that is, given that it is agreed that Nicky Morgan: Charnwood council’s reducing restorative justice can be an effective intervention? Is reoffending scrutiny panel has been considering how to this yet another example of the gap between rhetoric promote restorative justice locally. One of the problems and reality? that it has identified is that offenders are often released on Fridays or at weekends with no practical support. Injunctions (Privacy) Before it can get around to worrying about restorative justice, we need to know what the Ministry can do to 2. Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): If he will ensure that offenders are given the practical support estimate the number of existing injunctions granted on that they need when they join the community. the grounds of invasion of privacy. [55667]

Mr Blunt: My hon. Friend has raised a valid operational The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice concern about Friday releases. However, holding prisoners (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Ministry of Justice currently whose statutory release date falls at a weekend until the holds some limited data on the numbers of injunctions following week is unlawful, and we do not think it right applied for in the county courts, but they do not allow for prisoners to be let out early: they should serve the identification of anonymity injunctions. The Department’s custodial period required by law. Our duty is to manage chief statistician is currently considering how robust the operational issue of Friday releases. That includes data on the number of anonymity injunctions issued by ensuring that all prisoners are properly prepared for the courts might be collated in the future. release, and implementing restorative justice as part of that preparation where appropriate. Mr Whittingdale: Is my right hon. and learned Friend concerned about the possibility that the large number of Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): My constituent injunctions that appear to be being granted on a routine Gary Thrall was left for dead after a vicious knife basis suggests that the courts are paying insufficient attack last year. His first contact from Victim Support regard to section 12 of the Human Rights Act 1998, came five weeks later, when it was suggested that he which was intended to protect press freedom? Given might like to meet some knife attackers. Does the Minister that, and given the huge speculation on the internet 137 Oral Answers17 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 138 about the identities of those who have obtained injunctions, exactly how we are trying to strike the balance before does he feel that the time is approaching when Parliament something is submitted for the judgment of Parliament. may need to revisit the issue? We may well not have to wait until the end of a long, controversial process such as that, and instead find Mr Clarke: I do not think any of us know whether some other way of tackling the issue, but we are considering the number is increasing. As far as I am aware, there it and we will come back with proposals in due course. have been two super-injunctions since the John Terry If there were debate on a privacy Bill, there would be an case, but the word “super-injunction” gets used very interesting range of opinions even in Parliament, but I widely. I realise there is increasing concern, however. I have not met many people yet who seem to have the personally have strong views on the secrecy of justice. perfect answer as to how to get the balance right. We have a tradition of open justice in this country. Plainly, I believe in the freedom of the press and freedom John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Some of speech in this country, even when it is sometimes of these injunctions serve to prevent information from exercised provocatively, as it is supposed to be in a free being passed to the police or other regulators. Does the country, but there are also areas where an individual is Secretary of State believe the law should be changed so entitled to have their privacy protected. The time is that regulators can always have information passed to certainly coming when the Government are going to them? have to look at this matter, although we will probably wait until we have had the report of the Master of the Mr Clarke: That is one of the arguments which the Rolls, who is looking rather more closely at the procedural judge who decides whether to grant the injunction will aspects. no doubt have in mind. Whether it is reasonable and in the public interest for the injunction to be granted is Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): The Lord Chancellor is what the judge is meant to try to establish. The question right to remind us that it is important that we get the for us is how we can make that clearer and more balance right between freedom of speech and an individual’s defensible, and how we can know more about what is right to privacy, but he will be aware of the public happening so that we are all satisfied that injunctions disquiet about the use of the anonymity injunction or are granted only in cases where the right to privacy of super-injunction, both in terms of its abuse—or alleged the individual is, indeed, being interfered with unjustly, abuse—and its circumvention, for example by the use of but I know of the hon. Gentleman’s interest in this Twitter. As he has said, the current situation is not topic, and we will bear his views in mind— satisfactory, but the Master of the Rolls is simply looking at the process, rather than the substance. What does the Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Secretary of State Lord Chancellor intend to do about that, so as to for his answer. provide leadership on this issue? ECHR Jurisdiction Mr Clarke: First, I agree that the Master of the Rolls is looking at process, and I am sure what he says will be 3. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): very valuable. As I have said, we will wait until he What reforms he is pursuing of the jurisdiction of the reports back before starting to take a proper look at the European Court of Human Rights. [55668] issue, but I think the Government will now have to study it and decide whether there is a case for intervening. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice There will never be unanimity on all these judgments, (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I will try not to talk this one out, precisely because it is so difficult to balance the competing Mr Speaker—although I will be tempted to do so. parts of the convention on human rights and the competing Reform of the Court will be a key aim of the forthcoming interests involved. There have been cases where we have UK chairmanship of the Council of Europe. We will be certainly needed to know—such as where people are pressing in particular to reinforce the idea that the disposing of waste material by dumping it off the coast Court’s role is a subsidiary one, which means that states, of Africa. That is easy in one direction, but in the other, not the Court, have primary responsibility for protecting every time I watch a football team I do not think I convention rights. necessarily need to know about the sex life of each of the players. Mr Bain: I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. In supporting reforms that cut the backlog of Sadiq Khan: As is often the case, I find myself agreeing cases and reduce the delays that many people experience to a large extent with what the Lord Chancellor says, in the Strasbourg Court, does he agree with Amnesty but let me say this. Super-injunctions are not granted by International and 270 other non-governmental organisations European judges using European law; they are granted which have founded a petition to campaign against the by British judges using British law, and Parliament has introduction of fees in the European Court of Human supremacy over that law and those judges. If clarity and Rights, as they believe those could, in some cases, represent guidance is required and suitable, and bearing in mind an insurmountable barrier to justice? the fact that we have the draft Defamation Bill and the forthcoming justice Bill, why does he not just say that Mr Clarke: I certainly think that one of the things he will use those vehicles to provide clarity and guidance? that needs to be tackled and can be tackled without too much difficulty is the thousands upon thousands of Mr Clarke: We will consider these matters, and it is cases awaiting a hearing at the Court, many of which probably right that Parliament passing a privacy Act are completely outside the sphere of the convention and might well be the best way of resolving the issue, but we could be disposed of reasonably straightforwardly. The need to get somewhat nearer a consensus and to know question of fees will have to be decided in due course by 139 Oral Answers17 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 140 the Ministers of 47 member states of the Council of Mr Blunt: Yes. Europe, but there is not much evidence at the moment that people are feeling excluded from the jurisdiction by Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): At present, a the threat of any imminent costs. defendant entering an early guilty plea will earn up to a third off the sentence that would otherwise apply. The Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): Government are proposing to replace that with a discount There would be very little problem with the jurisdiction of a half, a move which is opposed by the judiciary and of the Strasbourg Court if we repealed the Human many others. How on earth will giving a half off a Rights Act 1998, withdrew from the convention and sentence help to protect the public? replaced it with a British Bill of Rights. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is about time that that Mr Blunt: I would have thought that a moment’s happened? reflection would make that clear. Let us suppose that someone who is accused of rape co-operates with the Mr Clarke: If we repealed the Human Rights Act, authorities at the first opportunity, rather than puts which is one of the matters being looked at, we would their victim through the entire process of having to be just go back to having the convention applied directly prepared to give evidence and then having to give by Strasbourg. The issue attracts a wide range of views, evidence. That is one example where there is a definitive which is why we have set up a commission to consider benefit to the victim from encouraging the earliest them—[Interruption.] We have indeed set up the possible guilty plea. commission. It is composed of serious people who have expressed a very wide range of views in the past on the Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): subject. They will strive to reach a consensus and it will Does my hon. Friend agree that short-term prison be useful to get a properly informed and expert assessment sentences for women are quite ineffective and that robust of what the various options might result in. I am sure community options would be much better? that the package of measures recommended by my hon. Mr Blunt: As my right hon. and learned Friend the and learned Friend is one of the matters they will be Justice Secretary made clear last year, there are of considering in the course of their discussions. course problems with short prison sentences for both male and female offenders. We will not take away from Sentencing the judiciary and magistracy the ability to use short sentences when required, but we need to ensure that 4. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): community sentences that are properly robust and properly When he plans to bring forward proposals on the punitive can carry public confidence as an appropriate future of sentencing. [55669] option, particularly for women offenders who frequently have wider responsibilities in the community that would The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice be lost if they were incarcerated. (Mr Crispin Blunt): In December 2010, the Government Prisoners (Foreign Nationals) set out proposals for more effective punishment, rehabilitation and sentencing of offenders in the “Breaking the Cycle” Green Paper. We are finalising our response 5. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): How many to the views expressed during the consultation and will foreign national prisoners he expects to return to their publish it shortly. That will be followed by the publication country of origin to serve their sentences in 2011-12. of the legislation required to implement our proposals. [55670] 17. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): How many Steve McCabe: I am grateful for that answer. Is it the foreign national prisoners he expects to return to their Government’s view that someone who breaks into a country of origin to serve their sentences in 2011-12. person’s house and threatens violence should automatically [55685] receive a prison sentence, irrespective of whether it is a first offence? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Crispin Blunt): In 2010, 5,235 foreign national Mr Blunt: It is the Government’s view that justice prisoners were removed or deported from the UK. The should be done, and that is best done by judges taking number of foreign national prisoners has reduced by into consideration the circumstances of every individual 622 since 31 March 2010 to the present figure of 10,745. case. There will be circumstances in which Parliament The number of foreign prisoners transferred through has made clear its views in legislation. As a former prisoner transfer arrangements remains regrettably low Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Home Secretary, due to the voluntary nature of most of our existing the hon. Gentleman will well understand that. He will arrangements. We expect about 60 prisoners to be also well understand the potential for miscarriages of transferred in 2011-12 to serve their sentence and for justice if this place chooses so to tie the hands of judges the number of transfers to rise progressively as the that they are not able to exercise justice in the individual European Union prisoner transfer agreement enters cases that come before them. into force.

Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): There Nick Smith: The Prime Minister vowed to repatriate are a lot of noises off about this Government’s sentencing thousands of foreign prisoners. How many foreign national policy, but is not the reality that the simple aim of that prisoners have been repatriated in the past six months policy is to reduce reoffending and to protect the public, and how many does the Minister expect to repatriate in and that nothing more need be said? the coming 12 months? 141 Oral Answers17 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 142

Mr Blunt: I just told the House that in 2010 we debates on legal aid reform, hundreds of questions have repatriated 5,235. I would imagine that we will repatriate been tabled and I have been engaging in debates, sometimes a similar or larger number next year. with shadow Ministers, outside this place. I would say that the Government have been doing a lot of listening Mr Hanson: On 2 June, in answer to his hon. Friend on the issue and we will be ready for legislation shortly. the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), the Prime Minister said: Chris Evans: Solicitors have complained to me that “I have asked the Home Secretary to work with the Foreign the proposals could turn Islwyn into a legal aid desert. Secretary to draw up agreements with as many countries as What estimate has been made of the number of possible”.—[Official Report, 2 June 2010; Vol. 510, c. 434.] practitioners who would stop legal aid work if the Will the Minister update us on which new countries he reforms were made? has drawn up agreements with in the 11 months succeeding that date, what agreements have been finalised and, Mr Djanogly: The Government’s position is not to while he is at it, whether three and a half years after I start off with the number of legal aid practitioners. Our began negotiations we finally have an agreement with starting point is the sort of legal aid system that we Nigeria on repatriation? should have in this country, which will support vulnerable people. The number of practitioners to service that will Mr Blunt: I regret to inform the right hon. Gentleman follow. that we are still waiting for the Nigerians to complete their legislative processes, but that is in process and I am Rosie Cooper: Does the Minister believe that there is delighted to report to him that we have every expectation anything to learn from the Secretaries of State who have that it will be brought to a conclusion. As the right hon. been dealing with forestry and health when it comes to Gentleman knows, we do not control both sides of a rushing through proposals that have been rejected by negotiation and we have to ensure that we have partner professionals, the public and coalition Members of countries that will agree to compulsory transfer. He, of both Houses? all people in this House, is well aware of how difficult that is. That does not mean that we will not try to Mr Djanogly: I think that I answered that question improve on the dreadful performance of the previous previously. I certainly believe that we have listened and Administration. engaged fully. Legal Aid Reform Liz Kendall: The Minister has just said that he wants his plans to protect the most vulnerable, but his own 6. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): When he impact assessment says that low-income families, women expects to bring forward legislative proposals for the and minority ethnic groups will be disproportionately reform of legal aid. [55671] affected. Can he explain how that is fair?

7. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): When he expects Mr Djanogly: Legal aid per se involves poor people, to bring forward legislative proposals for the reform of so if we are going to reduce costs it will impact on poor legal aid. [55672] people. It is true that individuals with protected equality characteristics are over-represented within the current 9. Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): When he client base of civil and family legal aid when compared expects to bring forward legislative proposals for the with the population as a whole, although the extent of reform of legal aid. [55674] that varies by category of law.

12. Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): When he Julie Elliott: Will the Minister be taking the advice of expects to bring forward legislative proposals for the the Select Committee on Justice, which recommended reform of legal aid. [55680] that the Government should assess the 13. Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): When he “merits of the cost-saving proposals put forward by the Law Society”, expects to bring forward legislative proposals for the reform of legal aid. [55681] namely the alternative savings of £384 million—£34 million more than the Government’s proposals would save—while The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice protecting all civil and family legal representation? (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): We intend to bring forward legislation when parliamentary time allows. Mr Djanogly: Various alternatives have been suggested by the institution that the hon. Lady mentions and by Jessica Morden: A host of organisations, including many others during the consultation. The question is Citizens Advice, the Law Society and the Select Committee whether they would work and whether they would on Justice, have criticised the lack of an evidential basis deliver the required savings within the spending review for the proposed legal aid changes and have asked the period. The main proposal of the Law Society, which Government to slow down and think again. Will the she mentioned, is an alcohol levy—a penny on your Minister be willing to act on their advice? pint to pay for lawyers.

Mr Djanogly: The hon. Lady’s question implies that Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I am glad that the Government have not been listening. I would say the Minister is actively listening on this issue— that that is not the case. The consultation elicited some [Interruption.] We will see, won’t we? Under his proposals, 5,000 responses, we have now had three Adjournment someone with a debt case who faces homelessness will 143 Oral Answers17 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 144 be eligible for legal aid, so why should someone facing Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): The Secretary homelessness in a case of unlawful eviction not also be of State has accepted Lord Justice Jackson’s eligible? recommendations on civil litigation reform. He said they were “very attractive” and he was “impressed” by Mr Djanogly: Those are the sorts of issues that we them, so why is the Minister ignoring the report’s have been considering very carefully through the recommendation that the Government make consultation process. It is very important to realise that “no further cutbacks in legal aid availability or eligibility” even after our reforms we will still be spending £40 million because on housing legal aid, for example, and £6 million with debt, so it would be wrong to say that we are abolishing “The legal aid system plays a crucial role in promoting access to those areas of law. We are looking to get better value justice at proportionate costs”? and to make sure that the money goes towards helping Mr Djanogly: Legal aid does play a very important the vulnerable. part in access to justice, which the Government support. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): The Lord Justice Jackson was looking at civil costs, and in Minister will have noted a great degree of consistency in that context he looked at legal aid. On that point, as in the submissions on the proposed changes to legal aid, various other instances, we did not agree with his with concerns expressed about family law, debt and recommendations. What we will put forward in legislation housing law, medical negligence and cost-shunting on is a total all-encompassing package. The shadow Minister to other Departments. He has confirmed that the will appreciate that we consulted on public and private consultation on legal aid has been a genuine listening funding at the same time so that those who wanted to exercise. Can he confirm that many of the points expressed respond could do so in the context of both. by organisations such as the Law Society and the CAB have been heard and, critically, will be acted on? Work Opportunities (Prisons) Mr Djanogly: All of the submissions have been heard and are being considered very carefully—I can assure 8. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What steps he is my hon. Friend of that. As for whether we put them all taking to promote work opportunities in prisons. into place—that is unlikely, but we will consider them [55673] all and where we need to change our proposals, changes will be made. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke): We have made clear our intention Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): I recently met Langleys to make prisons places of work and industry. In the Solicitors, a firm based in my constituency, which feels Green Paper, “Breaking the cycle”, published last December, that the recommendations about reductions in the provision we set out our proposals to break the destructive cycle of legal aid combined with the recommendations from of crime. That included proposals for prison work. Our Lord Jackson’s report on civil court reforms will seriously response to the consultation on the Green Paper will be undermine access to justice and the rule of law. What published soon. assurances can my hon. Friend give to Langleys, my constituents and me that the Government’s reforms will Tony Baldry: Can my right hon. and learned Friend not make it more difficult for ordinary people to have kindly tell me how many more work and training recourse to the courts to right wrongs? opportunities there are in prisons today than there were this time last year? Mr Djanogly: I have to be up front with my hon. Friend and say that less money will be spent on legal Mr Clarke: No, I cannot. [Interruption.] The system aid, which means that fewer people will have access to requires considerable transformation. We intend to legal aid. The important issue is that we direct scarce introduce as widely as possible a system in which it is resources to the most vulnerable, and that is exactly normal for prisoners to have a working day doing what we will be doing by prioritising those whose proper work, getting into work habits and acquiring security and liberty is at risk and those whose homes are skills. We have some—comparatively few—outstanding at risk of immediate repossession. examples of workshops run by outside companies and we are attracting wide interest from companies in how Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I was fortunate we can do that. Prison Industries will have to be addressed to secure a debate on legal aid last week in which I and and we will probably have to put it on a different and others had the opportunity to go through some detailed more commercial footing. We are looking for work that concerns. Sadly, the Minister ran out of time in which can properly be done in prison without jeopardising to respond; I trust that he will respond to us all in legitimate small businesses outside. A moment ago I writing. He implied then that there would be changes to was accused of rushing everything. The great thing about the original proposals. Can he confirm that now, and such reforms, which will transform the prison system, is what will they be? that there is no point in delivering straight away experiments that have not been thought through. I intend to change Mr Djanogly: I can confirm that a letter has been sent the atmosphere of prisons very substantially once we to my hon. Friend, so he should get it shortly. As I said have got down to practical ways of doing so. in the Adjournment debate, which helpfully enabled hon. Members to put their points across, issues that Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): The were raised then are being looked at carefully by the introduction of work-based regimes more widely will be Government. We will assess those and some of them warmly welcomed by people who know about rehabilitation, may have implications for our legislation in due course. but victims are concerned about reparation. Will the 145 Oral Answers17 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 146

Secretary of State make sure that any wages earned as Mr Blunt: The value of what is done by charities and part of a work-based regime go directly to benefit the voluntary sector in the rehabilitation of offenders victims or the communities that have been victims of cannot possibly be overstated. There are thousands of crime? groups and tens of thousands of people who want to engage with us to deliver the rehabilitation of offenders Mr Clarke: Yes. I am glad the hon. Lady agrees on because it is the right thing to do. With a system now that sensible approach. That, too, is an important innovation focusing on outcomes rather than inputs, it would be that we must make. fairly foolish to ignore the capacity of this great army of auxiliaries to help us deliver rehabilitation. Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend’s response Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Barnardo’s on increasing work opportunities in prison, but will that is working with G4S Parc prison in my constituency, extend to more education and training in prison? along with a range of other partners, to look at the Parc supporting families scheme and the family intervention Mr Clarke: A great deal of education and training is unit, which take the most difficult and prolific offenders delivered in prisons now, but it needs to be improved; it and work with them to bring change. I invite the Minister is patchy. We are not losing our focus on making sure to come to Bridgend to see how that work is changing that the basic problems of literacy and numeracy are outcomes, changing the opportunities for rehabilitation, tackled, let alone other further education delivered, and bringing security for communities and reducing reoffending. we hope to make sure that the contracts for provision of It is an excellent example of the schemes that we are education and training services are of universally good looking for. quality. Mr Blunt: I am very grateful for the hon. Lady’s Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): My right hon. Friend invitation. I have visited all the prisons in Wales, but I the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) has a have rather more of the estate to get around before I ten-minute rule Bill which would make it mandatory for have seen them all. I am anxious to hear about the kind those sentenced to two years or more to undertake a of scheme she describes. I see examples of good practice relevant offender management programme before being all over the country of people working very hard in considered for early release. Do the Government intend both the prison and probation services to engage other to take those proposals forward? organisations, as she has described, and help the rehabilitation of offenders. Mr Clarke: We sentence people to prison terms as reparation for the wrong that they have done to their Drug Rehabilitation victims and society, and when they have completed their sentence we release them. Under existing rules they may 11. Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): be released from prison halfway through the named What steps he is taking to improve rehabilitation for sentence, but they are on licence thereafter, subject to those convicted of drug offences. [55676] recall, and that has to be made meaningful. I do not want to add to the number of people in prison who are The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice serving beyond any sentence that they have had imposed (Mr Crispin Blunt): Our proposals on the rehabilitation upon them for the crime that they committed, but who of drug-misusing offenders were published in a Green are waiting to go through some loophole which shows Paper, “Breaking the Cycle”, in December 2010. These that they qualify for release, not least because it is very include: ensuring that sentencing helps offenders to difficult to organise true opportunities for prisoners to come off drugs; piloting drug recovery wings in prisons; be able to satisfy such requirements. supporting the Department of Health in developing payment-by-results drug recovery pilots; and testing Charity Initiatives (Prisons) options for intensive community-based treatment for both female and male offenders. 10. Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to involve the charity sector in Chris White: Between 2005-06 and 2009-10, there was prison-based initiatives. [55675] a 24% rise in the number of drug offences committed in Warwickshire. There is clearly a need for improved The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice levels of rehabilitation for those who have suffered from (Mr Crispin Blunt): The National Offender Management drug addiction. The charitable, voluntary and social Service is committed to opening commissioning to all enterprise sectors are often best placed to provide this sectors. The Green Paper and the Ministry of Justice support. Will the Minister therefore tell the House what business plan for 2011 to 2015 set out that we will no work he is doing to engage with those sectors to deliver longer provide rehabilitation services directly without better support and improve rehabilitation while at the testing where the private, voluntary and community same time reducing drug-related crime? sectors can provide them more effectively. Mr Blunt: My hon. Friend has pointed clearly to a Mark Menzies: It is likely that many of the contracts consequence of the failure to rehabilitate offenders for the rehabilitation of offenders will be placed with effectively, which should have happened under the previous large providers, but what steps is the Minister taking to Administration. That is why we are engaged in what we ensure that the charities and small-scale providers that are calling a revolution in rehabilitation. As I said in do a lot of valuable work in that regard are being answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Fylde (Mark rewarded under payment by results? Menzies), we will have to ensure that we engage the full 147 Oral Answers17 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 148 capacity of the voluntary and charitable sectors, in provision for people bereaved by murder and manslaughter, co-operation with the state sector and the private sector, and improving the treatment of young victims and in order to maximise our capacity to deliver and to witnesses. focus them on outcomes rather than inputs. As Minister with responsibility for victims policy, I have met the commissioner twice formally and on other Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Has the occasions informally. We discussed and continue to Minister seen the headline in a national newspaper discuss support for victims of violent crime as well as all today stating that drug addicts are pocketing benefits other aspects of policy relating to victims and witnesses. amounting to more than £1 billion every year? Does he accept that the welfare system needs to be reformed to give addicts help in the form of treatment, rather than Margot James: In Stourbridge we have a good Victim funding their addiction, and how does he see such a Support service, staffed largely by volunteers, but it proposal being taken forward? operates on something of a shoestring, which affects awareness and its potential for partnership working. Mr Blunt: That is an extremely important part of Does my hon. Friend agree that there should be some effecting the rehabilitation of offenders. The number of shift of resource in the system towards Victim Support? offenders whose offences are drug-related is very substantial, so in conjunction with the Department of Health we are Mr Blunt: I pay tribute to Victim Support, which examining and introducing pilots on the whole treatment plays an extremely valuable role in supporting victims of drug addiction in the community. Many offenders and witnesses throughout the country. This year we will enter those pilots and then, I hope, the scheme agreed a funding deal with it, involving a grant of when we roll it out system-wide by the end of the £38 million every year for three years, giving it greater Parliament. We are also examining with the Department financial security. Victim Support is also able to bid for of Health how we treat people in prison in order additional money for local projects from the £18.5 million to ensure that we are much more focused on abstinence victims general fund, for which we invited bids this year. as well. I fear I may exhaust the patience of Mr Speaker Overall, the Ministry of Justice is committing more if I go on. money to the victims voluntary sector this year than last year, which of course, in the dreadful financial Legal Aid (Immigration) circumstances that we inherited from the previous Administration, shows our priorities. 14. Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): How much his Department spent on legal aid for cases concerning immigration in the latest period for which Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): The figures are available. [55682] Government talk a really good game about supporting victims, but the reality is that under cover of a review The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice the British Crime Survey is cutting questions on victims’ (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Legal Services Commission’s views, the witness and victim experience survey has gross operating expenditure on asylum and immigration ended and Her Majesty’s Courts Service’s court-users legal aid in the financial year 2009-10 was £90 million, survey is coming to an end. We need to listen more to of which about £26 million was for immigration matters. the victims of crime and put them at the heart of our judicial system, so can we have an assurance that the Simon Kirby: Does my hon. Friend agree that the best Secretary of State will reinstate survey questions or, way to reduce the amount of money spent on legal aid indeed, improve on them, and not push under the for immigration cases is to resolve those cases as promptly carpet the experiences of victims and witnesses of how as possible, and that, had we not inherited an immigration the British legal system operates? system in crisis from the Labour party, the costs would be lower already? Mr Blunt: There we have it—a demonstration of acquiring inputs, measurements and targets rather than Mr Djanogly: My hon. Friend is quite right. The best focusing on outputs. The last thing that we do, as the way to reduce the amount of money spent on immigration hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, is ignore victims. legal aid is to retain taxpayer funding for serious issues When we come forward with our strategy for victims only. Our current view is that most individuals involved and witnesses, he will see the extent of our commitment in immigration cases, such as those applying for study to ensuring that victims and witnesses are properly or work visas or making citizenship applications, should supported in the justice system. not require legal aid to resolve their issues. Victim Support (Violent Crime) Prisoners (Foreign Nationals) 15. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): What recent discussions he has had with the Commissioner for Victims 16. Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): What recent discussions and Witnesses on support for victims of violent crime; he has had with the Secretary of State for the Home and if he will make a statement. [55683] Department on the removal of foreign national prisoners who are awaiting deportation. [55684] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Crispin Blunt): The Commissioner for Victims and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Witnesses and the Justice Secretary are in regular contact. (Mr Crispin Blunt): I am in regular contact with my The commissioner has just completed her first year in hon. Friend the Minister for Immigration, and my post, working to a set of priorities agreed last year with officials are in regular contact with their counterparts at my right hon. and learned Friend following a meeting the Home Office. The removal of foreign national prisoners with him. These included looking at the most effective awaiting deportation is a mutual priority. 149 Oral Answers17 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 150

Jessica Lee: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his who think this is nonsense, nor only judges or victims response. I am sure he agrees that the incarceration of groups: the Lord Chancellor’s own Commissioner for criminals from outside the UK is not a duty owed by Victims and Witnesses says that it is bonkers. Will the taxpayers from Erewash or, indeed, elsewhere throughout right hon. and learned Gentleman reconsider? the country. The Government’s sentencing Green Paper explores how punishments for foreign offenders could Mr Clarke: We are going to give the outcome of our include immediate removal, rather than imprisonment consultation shortly, but I think that that proposal is in this country. Will my hon. Friend please update the likely to survive. The fact is that we have always had a House on proposals to consider that measure? reduced tariff for early guilty pleas in this country. It always startles the public when they discover that this Mr Blunt: There will very shortly be an opportunity has underlined our sentencing policy for many years. It for all right hon. and hon. Members to see our proposals is true that we are thinking of putting up the reduction in response to the consultation on the Green Paper, and to a half. It makes an enormous difference to costs, it would be appropriate to wait until then so that police time and the involvement of unnecessary preparations proposals come forward together in a coherent manner. for trial if everybody leaves guilty pleas to the last We have to remember that we are dealing with the possible moment. As my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary consequences of an era of inaction when, for example, rightly said, victims and witnesses are put through an the Council of Europe additional protocol on the transfer ordeal if they are preparing for a trial where they expect of prisoners was open for signature in 1997 and it took to be accused of lying because the man has not been until November 2009 for that lot over there to sign it. induced to plead at an early enough stage. Those are the considerations that lay behind this proposal.

Topical Questions T2. [55692] Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): Last month, I visited Kirklees restorative justice team, who, in Kirklees alone, need to keep only two offenders T1. [55691] Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): out of prison for a year to cover the whole of their If he will make a statement on his departmental budget. However, does the Minister agree that probably responsibilities. one of the most impressive elements of restorative justice is the immeasurable improvement in victims’ The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice perceptions? (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I shall begin with a topical statement. On 26 April, I attended a Council of Europe ministerial The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice conference in Turkey on the future of the European (Mr Crispin Blunt): I absolutely agree with my hon. Court of Human Rights. I was clear that the Court Friend. The evidence from Northern Ireland, where a must focus on truly important cases and have proper statutory form of restorative justice has been working regard to the judgment of national Parliaments and positively in the youth sector, shows 85% levels of courts. I met a number of Ministers from other member victim satisfaction. The data are getting better regarding states and senior figures from the Council of Europe the effect of restorative justice on the rehabilitation of and the Court who were receptive to this view. offenders, and appear to show at least a 14% improvement if we use it. That is a pretty convincing case for the Mr Raab: In a recent and novel ruling, a man convicted proper use of restorative justice, quite apart from the of robbery defeated a deportation order on human financial benefits that my hon. Friend mentioned. rights grounds because he had a girlfriend—a relationship that the court described as that of a courting couple T3. [55693] NicDakin(Scunthorpe)(Lab):TheSecretary and no more. Will my right hon. and learned Friend of State will be well aware of the tragic loss of five consider amending the Human Rights Act 1998 and the young lives on the secure prison estate in recent months. human rights clause in the UK Borders Act 2007 to Will he outline what work he and his officials are prevent this kind of judicial legislation under article 8 of undertaking to look into those tragic deaths, and what the European convention? measures he intends to put in place to prevent future occurrences?

Mr Clarke: I have not seen that case, but I agree that Mr Kenneth Clarke: We have had an unfortunate it sounds like a rather sweeping interpretation of the instance, but we will obviously investigate each of those right to family life, which is what the European convention tragic cases. Unfortunately, there are always extremely confirms. If my hon. Friend will let me have the details, vulnerable people in young offender institutions, and I will inquire into the case to see how it reached such a steps have to be taken to protect them against self-harm. startling conclusion. It is possible that the report that he I have no reason to believe that anything has changed read, in whichever newspaper he read it, did not bear a significantly that connects these deaths. I assure the very close resemblance to what actually occurred. hon. Gentleman that each and every one of them will be carefully considered to see whether anything went wrong Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): The Lord Chancellor or whether something can be improved. has announced plans—this was raised by the previous Lord Chancellor—to reduce by half the sentence for an T4. [55694] Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) offender if he or she pleads guilty. In a remarkably (Con): Does the Secretary of State share my concern flippant response, his junior Minister, the Under-Secretary and that of my constituents that prisoners are not of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Reigate spending their time inside constructively? Will any (Mr Blunt), asked us to pause and reflect on the thoughts future Bill address that issue by ensuring that prisoners and views of a victim of rape. It is not only Labour MPs spend more time at work than in their cells? 151 Oral Answers17 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 152

Mr Kenneth Clarke: As I explained earlier, I feel that further rationalisation and that every effort will be concern strongly. The matter does not so much require made to sustain the existing network of magistrates legislation as sensible organisation, change in the structure courts? of prison industries, and more leeway for governors to arrange work when there is a sensible opportunity to do Mr Djanogly: I believe that justice is best dispensed so. A significant change in the culture of parts of the through a network of courts that is efficient and well-utilised, prison service would add to the good work that goes on and that provides the facilities that are expected of a at the moment, which is quite rare and is scattered modern courts system, particularly for victims and witnesses. across the prison estate. I agree with my hon. Friend I confirm that there are no current plans for further that that is an important aim. rationalisation.

T6. [55696] Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): (Lab): Earlier this month, the foetal anti-convulsant Will the Justice Secretary take this opportunity to update litigation against Sanofi Aventis was discontinued after the House on his policy on the office of chief coroner? six years’ preparation. The claimants and their families have been denied their day in court because legal aid Mr Kenneth Clarke: We are considering our policy in funding was withdrawn at the last moment. Will the the light of the debate and the result in the House of Minister say what funding arrangements will be available Lords. I have been discussing the matter with various for multi-party actions in future so that such families interest groups, various Members of another place, and are not denied access to justice? one or two Members of this House. Some of the lobbyists attribute to the chief coroner powers to tackle all kinds The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice of failings in the system that the legislation never gave (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The funding of clinical negligence him or her. We could deliver some of the substantial cases in this country is about 50:50 between legal aid changes that need to be made to the coroner system and conditional fee arrangements—in other words, private rather more quickly by distributing the functions elsewhere, funding. We believe that when people have the opportunity rather than by creating unnecessarily a whole new office. of private funding, they should take that option. In I am considering the arguments. We ought to concentrate looking at our proposals for reviewing privately funded on what outcomes we are trying to produce, rather than litigation, we are taking clinical negligence cases on argue about structures and new institutions. board and are moulding our proposals to help those who want to take such cases. Mr Speaker: I call Graham Evans. He is not here. Mr Davies. Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): The feeling has Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Has the Secretary of been expressed by several sources in the two prisons in State read the research commissioned by Lord Ashcroft my constituency that former members of the armed and conducted by Populus called “Crime, Punishment services are not looked on favourably in Prison Service & The People—Public opinion and the criminal justice recruitment. Will the Minister reassure me that that is debate”? If he has read the report, which I commend to not the case? him, will he confirm that its findings, which will make sobering reading for him, will be part of the proposals Mr Blunt: It will come as no surprise to my hon. on sentencing? Friend, given our mutual background, that I would regard such discrimination against former members of Mr Clarke: I shall look at the report to see whether it the armed services as wholly unacceptable. If prison is the source of my hon. Friend’s views on the subject of officers can produce evidence for that, I would be crime and punishment, which he frequently gives, and extremely interested to receive it. then I will try to find some counter-reading to recommend to him. I will try to study it if I get the chance. T8. [55698] Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): The Crime The purpose of sentencing in this country is to punish and Security Act 2010 received Royal Assent more than offenders effectively and proportionately for what they a year ago. How much longer will victims of overseas have done. The purpose that I intend to add to that terrorism have to wait to receive their compensation? more clearly is to try to reduce the number who simply Those victims include Will Pike, who will spend the rest offend again and come back into the system. If we cut of his life in a wheelchair, following injuries sustained in reoffending, it will mean fewer crimes and fewer victims, the Mumbai terrorist attacks in 2008. and we will make a positive contribution instead of recycling the same old people through the same old not Mr Blunt: I saw Will Pike and his father last week very well functioning system. along with another representative of victims of terrorism overseas. We are bringing forward proposals on that, Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Will the Secretary and will do so when we bring forward comprehensive of State take a look at the case of Shrien Dewani, a proposals on victims, witnesses and criminal injuries British citizen who faces extradition to South Africa? compensation. He has shown me convincing evidence that he will not face a fair trial there. Can we reconsider extraditing that T7. [55697] Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): Does the citizen? Minister agree that justice is best dispensed through a network of local courts, such as that at Lowestoft in my Mr Clarke: That is a matter for my right hon. Friend constituency? Will he provide an assurance that, following the Home Secretary, who I am sure will be interested in the recent round of closures, there are no plans for considering the case. 153 Oral Answers17 MAY 2011 Oral Answers 154

T10. [55700] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): of those who finish their sentence do not go on to The Home Secretary recently announced her intention reoffend and get convicted again. The approach that we for police to do 80% of charging. I can see how that is are adopting to improving the reoffending reduction to the benefit of the police, but has the Justice programmes, which is to pay by results and make it Secretary had any discussions about how we can ensure quite clear that charitable and ethical investors can get a that it is not to the disbenefit of justice? return on their capital if they succeed in delivering that objective, is a valuable and innovative way of trying to Mr Kenneth Clarke: That too is a matter for my right achieve real results rather than strive needlessly. hon. Friend the Home Secretary, and the question should be addressed to the Home Office first. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Mr Dean, a constituent of mine, is still waiting after three years for full payment Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Legal aid of a compensation award from a persistent offender. to take family cases to court will in future be available What action are the Government taking, and what only when domestic violence is an issue. Otherwise, action will they take, against persistent non-payment of couples will be expected to go to mediation. However, compensation awards by persistent offenders? mediation may not be appropriate where there is a high degree of conflict, even when domestic violence is absent. Mr Blunt: I am afraid that we inherited a criminal What consideration is the Minister giving to how such injuries compensation scheme that was £765 million in cases will work after legal aid is removed? debt. That is why we have inadequate funds to pay compensation, and why the payment of compensation Mr Djanogly: We are studying that issue very carefully in many cases has, regrettably, been delayed. We are trying through the consultation. We believe that mediation, as to repair a system that was bust when we inherited it. a cheaper, quicker and less stressful alternative, is normally the best way to go, but there will be circumstances in Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) which it is not appropriate, domestic violence being one (Con): Recently in my constituency, a convicted sex of them. We are considering the definition of domestic offender who was automatically released at the halfway violence carefully. point of his sentence reoffended in the most appalling way. Will my hon. Friend agree to meet me to discuss Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): Prisoners both automatic release for predatory child sex offenders, who reoffend cost the UK economy £10 billion a year. and whether it is appropriate to house such individuals Is not the real solution for the Secretary of State to close to young families, schools, a playground and a continue his excellent record as a public service reformer park? by incentivising private companies to rehabilitate prisoners and letting them earn a profit when they cut reoffending Mr Blunt: I am very happy to meet my hon. Friend to rates? discuss the individual circumstances of that case. On the face of it, that situation should not have been Mr Clarke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who has enabled to happen. There should have been a sensible worked with me on public service reform in the past. I degree of risk assessment and a proper placement of am glad he shares our objective because, as he says, it the individual concerned. I am therefore only too happy saves the economy substantial amounts and reduces the to meet my hon. Friend to discuss the details of that number of victims and further crimes if a higher proportion case. 155 17 MAY 2011 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) 156

House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) The coalition agreement committed the Government to produce proposals for 3.30 pm “a wholly or mainly elected chamber.” The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): With That debate is reflected in what we are publishing today. permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement The Bill makes provision for 80% of Members to be about the Government’s plans to reform the other place. elected, with the remaining 20% to be appointed independently. The 60 appointed Members would sit as At the last general election, each major party committed Cross Benchers, not as representatives of political parties, to a democratically elected second Chamber. The coalition and in addition bishops of the Church of England agreement set out very clearly the Government’s intention would continue to sit in the other place, but would be to deliver that, but the roots of these changes can be reduced in number from 26 to 12. The White Paper traced back much further. A century ago, the Government, includes the case for a 100%-elected House of Lords. led by Herbert Asquith, promised to create The 80:20 split is the more complicated option, and so “a Second Chamber constituted on a popular instead of hereditary has been put into the draft Bill in order to illustrate it in basis.” legislative terms. The 100% option would be easy to There has been progress in the intervening years—the substitute into the draft Bill should that be where we majority of hereditary peers have gone, and the other end up. place is now predominantly made up of life peers. We should see ourselves as completing that work. There are people on both sides of the House who support a fully elected Chamber, believing that an elected People have a right to choose their representatives. House of Lords should be just that. Others, again on That is the most basic feature of a modem democracy. both sides, take a different view, and support having a Our second Chamber, which is known for its wisdom non-elected component in order to retain an element of and expertise, is none the less undermined by the fact it non-party expertise, as well as to keep greater distinction is not directly accountable to the British people. I am between the two Houses. Personally, I have always therefore publishing a draft Bill today, and an accompanying supported a 100%-elected House of Lords, but the key White Paper, which set out proposals for reform. thing is not to make the best the enemy of the good. In the programme for government, we undertook to That approach has stymied Lords reform for far too “establish a committee to bring forward proposals for a wholly or long. After all, 80% is a whole lot better than 0%. mainly elected upper chamber on the basis of proportional representation.” Elections to the new reformed House will be staggered: at each general election a third of Members will be I chair that cross-party committee, which reached agreement elected, or a combination of elected and appointed. on many of the most important issues—not on all of That is to prevent the other place from becoming a them, but good progress was made—and those deliberations mirror image of this House. In the Bill we set out how have greatly shaped the proposals that are being published those elections could be conducted using the single today. I should like to pay tribute to all members of the transferable vote. The coalition agreement specifies only Committee, particularly Opposition Members, who engaged that the system must be proportional, and what is most with us in an open and collaborative fashion. Let me important is that it is different from whatever we use in also thank those individuals whose past work on Lords the Commons. That is to ensure that the two Chambers reform has laid the foundations for what we are doing have distinct mandates; one should not seek to emulate today, particularly the right hon. Member for Blackburn the other. (Mr Straw) and the right hon. and noble Lord Wakeham. Rather than start anew, the Government have benefited STV allows for that, and would also give the upper from their previous endeavours. Today’s proposals represent Chamber greater independence from party control. Votes a genuine, collective effort over time. are cast for individuals rather than parties, putting the The draft Bill and White Paper will now be scrutinised emphasis on the expertise and experience that candidates by a Joint Committee composed of 13 peers and offer, rather than the colour of the rosette they wear. We 13 Members of this House. The Committee will report want to preserve the independence of spirit that has early next year, and a Government Bill will then be long differentiated that House from this one. I know introduced. that some Members prefer a party list system, including Opposition members of the cross-party committee I The Prime Minister and I are clear that we want the chaired. We are willing to have this debate, and have not first elections to the reformed upper Chamber to take ruled out a list-based system in the White Paper. place in 2015. However, although we know what we want to achieve, we are open minded about how we get The Commons will retain ultimate say over legislation there. Clearly, our fixed goal is greater democratic legitimacy through the Parliament Acts, and will continue to have for the other place, but we will be pragmatic in order to a decisive right over the vote of supply. In order for a achieve that. We therefore propose an upper House Government to remain in office they will still need to made up of 300 members, each eligible for a single term secure the confidence of MPs. The other place will of three Parliaments. Three hundred is the number that continue to be a revising Chamber, providing scrutiny we judge to be right, but this is an art and not a science. and expertise. Its size, electoral cycle, voting system, In the vast majority of bicameral systems, the second and terms will all help to keep it distinct from the Chamber is significantly smaller. That arrangement Commons and a place that remains one step removed helps to maintain a clear distinction between the two from the day-to-day party politics that, quite rightly, Houses. We are confident that 300 full-time Members animate this House. What will be different is that our can cover the work comfortably. We are, however, open second Chamber will finally have a democratic mandate, to alternative views on that. and will be much more accountable as a result. 157 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)17 MAY 2011 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) 158

[The Deputy Prime Minister] not even the Lib Dem activists, whom the Deputy Prime Minister is trying to appease. After 12 months in Clearly, the transition must be carefully managed. We office, he has nothing new to say on Lords reform, but is propose to phase in the reform over three electoral simply putting out proposals that kick the issue into the cycles. In 2015 a third of Members will be elected, or a long grass. combination of elected and appointed. The number of Before the Deputy Prime Minister delegates responsibility sitting peers will be reduced by a third, although we are for the Bill to the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet not prescribing the process for that; it will be up to the Office, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), parties in the other place to decide. In 2020, a further who is the Minister responsible for political and third will come in under the new system, and then constitutional reform, and to Lord Strathclyde, can he again in 2025. There are other ways of staging the answer these 11 questions on the proposals? transition, however, and the White Paper sets out two of them. Bearing in mind that the country comprehensively To conclude, history teaches us that completing the rejected the AV system two weeks ago, is the Deputy unfinished business of Lords reform is not without Prime Minister seriously suggesting that he should impose challenges. Our proposals are careful and balanced. a system of proportional representation for the second They represent evolution, not revolution, and are a Chamber without consulting the electorate? What powers typically British change. I hope that Members from does he want a reformed House of Lords to have? How both sides of the House and the other place will help us will he deal with the conventions that currently govern to get the proposals right. The Government are ready to the relationship between the two Chambers? Does he listen and are prepared to adapt, but we are determined, believe that the relationship should be codified? What in the end, to act. I commend this statement to the role does he envisage for the bishops in the second House. Chamber, and why 12? Can he set out the cost of a reformed second Chamber? If it is possible that no peers would be forced to leave until 2025, what does he Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I thank the Deputy predict the maximum size and cost of the second Chamber Prime Minister for advanced sight of the statement, and will be in the interim? Will he confirm that he wants for how he chaired the working group—squaring the reform on the statute book by the next election? Will he views of Lord Strathclyde with those of the rest of us confirm whether he intends to use the Parliament Acts was nothing short of a master class in conflict resolution. to force the proposals through? Will he also confirm I am also pleased to see the Prime Minister here supporting whether coalition MPs and peers will be whipped to the Deputy Prime Minister. The latter must feel like the vote for the Bill when it comes out of the Joint Committee? manager of West Ham seeing his chairman after the Finally, will he allow a debate on his Bill in Government final whistle on Saturday. I hope he has a better outcome time before the summer recess? than the chairman—I mean the manager—of West Ham had on Saturday. The Deputy Prime Minister has confirmed by the publication of this Bill just how irrelevant he and his I agree that our politics and constitution are in need party are in the coalition Government. I am afraid that of reform. Like the Deputy Prime Minister’s party, the Bill, the White Paper and the whole process are a Labour had a manifesto commitment to create a fully huge anticlimax. elected second Chamber. Let us be frank: Lords reform is not near the top of any of our constituents’ priorities. They are more interested—[HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] The Deputy Prime Minister: Not only did the right I am grateful for that support; I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman fluff the lines at the beginning, he also Deputy Prime Minister is. Our constituents are more failed to rise to the occasion. This is an occasion when, interested in their schools and hospitals, and whether for once, he could put aside his sour observations and they will have a job at the end of the year. This is about try to work across parties, as we have in the cross-party how we write the laws that affect us, including laws on committee, to make some progress not only, I should schools and hospitals, and who writes those laws, so if remind Opposition Members, on something that was in we are doing it, we have to get it right. their manifesto—by the way, so was AV, but a fat lot of The present situation is unsustainable. The Lords has good that did us all—but on something that we have more than 800 Members, and the Prime Minister intends to been discussing as a country for almost 100 years. If pack in another 200, at great expense to the taxpayer— that is not long enough, I do not know what is. 117 have already been added since May 2010—while at the Before I turn to some of the right hon. Gentleman’s same time cutting the number of elected Members in questions, let me address the vital issue, which he has this House. More unelected, fewer elected—and he calls raised once again, about a wholly or mainly elected it progress. I fear that the Deputy Prime Minister will second Chamber. It would be so much easier to take soon realise that the Tories are the real obstacle to the right hon. Gentleman’s admonitions in favour of reform, just as they were when we were in power. 100% seriously if, during the 13 years under Labour, It is important that we get the details right. The more had been delivered than 0%. Given that the country Deputy Prime Minister says that he supports a fully has been debating House of Lords reform for more elected second Chamber, yet he is unveiling a Bill today than a century and that all three parties made a manifesto that leaves at least 20% appointed, plus bishops, plus commitment on this issue last year, it is crucial not to Ministers appointed by the Prime Minister. The Joint make the best the enemy of the good. We have set out in Committee will have a built-in Government majority, so the Bill how an 80:20 split would work, and we have the idea of it overturning anything of substance in the maintained the option in the White Paper of moving to Bill by next year is unrealistic. These proposals risk 100% if that is what people want. That is exactly what being a dog’s dinner, with nobody happy at the outcome— we will submit to the Joint Committee. 159 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)17 MAY 2011 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) 160

Turning to the right hon. Gentleman’s questions, the and how would accountability be aided by 15-year cost is almost impossible to estimate at this stage, non-renewable terms, during which there would be no without knowing precisely what the final composition power of recall for the electorate? Is it not true that a of the House of Lords will be or the method of transition mandate given to the second Chamber would reduce from where we are now to where we want to be in 2025. the mandate of this House? In the Bill, we have proposed a staged election—or election and appointment—by thirds in 2015, 2020 and The Deputy Prime Minister: I remind the right hon. 2025, alongside a staged reduction, commensurate with Gentleman that the insight that it is best to have long that, from the House of Lords as it is at the moment. non-renewable terms in the other place in a reformed House of Lords precisely to avoid such conflict with the Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): How would other place was not established by the present Government you do that? or the cross-party committee I chaired; rather, it is an idea that has enjoyed consensus from the days of the The Deputy Prime Minister: We will leave it to the Wakeham commission onwards. If we look at the proposals House of Lords itself to decide the precise method of from a cross-party group of MPs, which were given reduction by thirds. We have set out two options in the considerable support by the previous Labour Government White Paper. One would involve moving to the full in 2005—the “Breaking the Deadlock” proposals—we reduction of the size of the House of Lords to find that a preference was made not only for non-renewable 300 immediately in 2015; the other would be to do terms of between 12 and 14 years, but for the single nothing until 2025, which would mean that the reformed transferable vote. These are not new proposals: they are House of Lords would have become very large indeed drawn from a lot of insights identified by others from in 15 years’ time. We would then make the reduction at all parties in the past. that point. Those are exactly the kinds of issues that we will invite the Joint Committee to look at. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) I can confirm our determination to see the reform of (LD): Given that this issue has been on the agenda of the House of Lords reach the statute book in time for Parliament for so long and that reforming the second the elections in 2015. We want to see the first elections Chamber is now the settled will of the leadership of to a reformed House of Lords take place in 2015. We all three parties, is not the test of this Bill whether the will treat this legislation as we treat all Government leadership of those parties makes sure that the legislation. This is something to which both our democratically elected Members of Parliament prevail manifestos—in fact, all the manifestos—are committed, in a reform that is long overdue and that the proposals and it is clearly set out in the coalition agreement. We are not derailed by people who are not elected, but are will use all the legislative tools at our disposal to deliver either hereditary or appointed—a completely unacceptable on that commitment. branch of a modern democratic legislature? Several hon. Members rose— The Deputy Prime Minister: I strongly agree with my right hon. Friend in the basic principle that people Mr Speaker: Order. A great many hon. Members are should be able to hold to account those who make the seeking to catch my eye. Brevity is therefore of the laws of the land by which the people of this country essence. have to abide. That is a simple democratic principle: it is not new; it is shared by Members of all parties; it is Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Does the widely recognised as a simple democratic principle across Deputy Prime Minister appreciate that there will be a the democratic world. It is interesting to note that there warm welcome for the fact that he is introducing a draft are still people even in this democratically elected Chamber Bill? We look forward to its being thoroughly scrutinised who seem to resist that very principle. by the Joint Committee. Will he please explain how the balance of power between the two Houses of Parliament will change when an elected second Chamber competes Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Does with this House and its Members for democratic legitimacy? the Deputy Prime Minister not agree that a sounder approach would be to decide what we want the House The Deputy Prime Minister: We discussed this in the of Lords to do and what its functions should be before cross-party committee. It is precisely to avoid competition we decide how it is made up? Otherwise, we are in the between the two Houses that the Bill and the White situation of picking the team before we have decided Paper propose different systems of election, different what game it is going to play. Surely if it is to be elected, geographical constituencies—the Lords would not represent any self-respecting elected Members of the upper House constituencies in the way that we understand in this will not feel themselves bound by the customs and House—and non-renewable 15-year terms. Bicameral practice that have applied to an unelected Chamber—and systems in other countries show that, as long as the we will thus get conflict between this Chamber and the mandate and the term in one House are very different upper Chamber. from those in the other, an asymmetrical relationship can be preserved. The Deputy Prime Minister: We already know the role of the House of Lords—scrutiny and revision. Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Every time this issue has been examined by a range of Hillsborough) (Lab): The stated aims of the proposal cross-party groups—the Wakeham commission was just are clearly legitimacy and accountability. How would one of many examples—the same conclusion has been an election system that leaves the electorate unable to reached: namely, those powers should remain the same understand who they have elected add to legitimacy, and as long as the mandate, the electoral system and the 161 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)17 MAY 2011 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) 162

[The Deputy Prime Minister] The Deputy Prime Minister: I remind the hon. Friend that last year he fought a campaign in favour of—this terms of those elected in the other place are different, was in the Conservative party manifesto— the basic relationship between the two Houses can “a mainly-elected second chamber to replace the current House remain constant. of Lords” without a commitment to a referendum. Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): May I ask the right hon. Gentleman again whether he intends to Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Does the Deputy continue to pursue, in the words of Lord Steel of Prime Minister recognise that Lords reform is essentially Aikwood, a penalty shoot-out in which no one will score, because “private obsessions with little public resonance—AV and an nearly everyone is opposing nearly everyone else’s proposed elected House of Lords, for example”? reforms? If we are to join him in this constitutional version of the fantasy football league, will he tell us The Deputy Prime Minister: I just do not recognise whether there will be a limit to the number of Members that. A commitment was made by the hon. Gentleman’s of the House of Lords who can be appointed by virtue party, by the Labour party and by the party I lead and it of being Ministers, whether it will be possible for elected was set out very clearly in all three manifestos of the Members to be appointed as Ministers, and why there is main parties, so I do not think it can conceivably be still discrimination in favour of one Church and England described as a “private preoccupation” for one politician in respect of the Lords spiritual? or another. This is an issue that we have been debating as a country for over a century. A very simple principle The Deputy Prime Minister: Whatever one’s views is at stake: do we believe, yes or no, that it is a good about the Church, it is a fact that it is an established thing in a democracy for people to be able to hold those Church, and that is reflected in the composition of the who make the laws of the land directly to account? House of Lords. As for ministerial appointments by the According to our manifestos, all of us believe that that Prime Minister, we think it acceptable in principle—and is the right principle; it is therefore right for this Government this is another matter that we would invite the Joint to try, on a consensual, open and pragmatic basis, to try Committee to examine—for future Prime Ministers to and reach agreement so that we can finally put that make supernumerary appointments of Ministers to the principle into practice. reformed House of Lords, but only for the duration of their holding of ministerial office. In other words, there Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Most people will agree would be a temporary mechanism whereby Ministers that the House of Lords has become too large, but that appointed by the Prime Minister could be held to could be changed by all the parties agreeing to stop account by one or other of the Houses in Westminster. making so many new Lords. I do not know what happens on the buses in Sheffield and what people on Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): What sort of those buses are saying, but I certainly know that people people does the Deputy Prime Minister wish to select to on the Clapham omnibus in my area are not demanding this hybrid Chamber, and why does he think that those the reform of the House of Lords, as they have many, skills would be lacking under a fully elected system? many higher priorities, yet they have to see huge amounts of time, effort and money being wasted on this. The Deputy Prime Minister: It would not be up to me, or to any members of future Governments, to make The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I accept that such selections. Core to the proposals in the Bill in many issues that we discuss in the Chamber, and many regard to the model with 80% elected and 20% appointed issues with which any Government must deal, may not is the making of appointments by an entirely independent resonate on the doorsteps, but they may none the less be and statutory appointments commission, the process significant and important to our national life. I think being conducted in an entirely open and meritocratic we all agree that it is important for world trade rules to manner. work properly, but that is not an issue that is raised with me on the doorstep very often. It is important for us to Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I must tell get local government finance right, and that too is not the Deputy Prime Minister that I have never seen less raised on the doorstep very often, but it is none the less enthusiasm for a Minister’s proposals on the Government significant and important. The fact that an issue is not Benches. He should have looked behind him. raised with us by our constituents does not mean that it Being a sporting sort of person—as I am sure he is not worthy of debate. If that is not the case, I cannot is—would the Deputy Prime Minister be willing to bet imagine why Government after Government have debated me whatever sum he thinks appropriate that his proposed this very issue for nearly a century system will not be in place, or anywhere near it, in 2015?

Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): The Deputy Prime Minister: Given that the hon. Is this not yet another tatty roadshow brought to us by Gentleman and other Members in all parts of the the same people who thought that the British people House fought a general election last year on a manifesto wanted the alternative vote? If the Deputy Prime Minister commitment to House of Lords reform, given that, as I really believes that the British people want this reform—and explained earlier, we have been discussing it as a country I note that he makes no criticism at all of the way in for a very long time, and given our determination in which the House of Lords currently does its job—why government to see the first step in these changes made does he not submit these proposals to a referendum, in 2015, I am determined to prove the hon. Gentleman and let the British people decide? wrong. 163 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)17 MAY 2011 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) 164

John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) today, with a view to our submitting final draft legislation (LD): I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his modest in the next Session. The Bill will be treated in the same progress. The plain fact is that an unelected Lords is an way as any other Government legislation. It was part of illegitimate Lords, and that weakens the Lords and all our manifestos and features in the coalition agreement, weakens Parliament as a whole. An elected Lords is a and if we cannot make headway by any other means, we strong Lords, and that strengthens Parliament as a will use all the legitimate instruments at our disposal to whole. Does my right hon. Friend not find it faintly get the Bill implemented before the next general election. ridiculous that after 13 years of abject failure, the I agree with the right hon. Gentleman about Robin dinosaurs over there are only interested in feather-bedding Cook: I am very happy to recognise that it was an the dinosaurs upstairs? omission not to acknowledge the very significant role played by Robin Cook—and also, dare I say, by the The Deputy Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and many for his remarks, and I agree that the notion that somehow other Opposition Members, who have for many years more democracy can weaken a legislature would strike argued precisely the case we are seeking to promote most people outside this Chamber as an extraordinarily today. peculiar argument. Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): The Deputy Prime Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): Does the Deputy Minister will know that the draft Bill states that nothing Prime Minister personally believe that there is a case for in these proposals shall affect the primacy of the House keeping bishops in the House of Lords, and if so, what of Commons. As nobody else has been able to define is it? what “primacy” means, how does the Deputy Prime Minister propose to define it? The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said earlier, the Church is an established Church. We have set out The Deputy Prime Minister: Primacy is clearly set out proposals in the Bill, however, under which if progress in the two Parliament Acts, and was also clearly set out were to be made on a largely elected, but partly appointed, in my earlier statement. My view is that the fact of House of Lords, on a supernumerary basis the Church greater election to another Chamber does not in and of would be represented but on a much smaller scale than itself mean the balance between the two Houses is we now—[Interruption.] The Bill envisages a cut from seriously disturbed. That is confirmed by examples of 26 bishops to 12. bicameral systems elsewhere in the democratic world.

Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Will the Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): Deputy Prime Minister remind the House how many The Deputy Prime Minister keeps asserting that the other countries elect people for 15 years—and he will conventions will stay the same, but when the other place have to do better than citing the likes of Papua New has 100% elected Senators or Lords and they take a Guinea and Fiji this time? Does he not understand that different view from him, how will he assert this House’s having people there for 15 years will be the worst of all authority over another elected House? worlds, because they will claim democratic accountability to confront this elected House but they will be accountable The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said earlier, I think to no one? that the Parliament Acts are very clear on that point.

The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said earlier, the idea Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Does my right that in a reformed House of Lords there should be long hon. Friend see these proposals as a means of empowering non-renewable terms is not new. It has been put forward the voices of the devolved nations and the English on numerous occasions before, and with cross-party regions? Manifestly, that will be achieved by electing support. However, if Members feel that is a step too far people, rather than hand-picking appointees, in order or the period of time is too long, that is exactly the kind to achieve balance across the country as a whole. of point on which the Joint Committee should seek to make representations. The Deputy Prime Minister: Clearly, a proportional electoral system, whichever one is finally settled on, Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I welcome these would be reflective of opinion across the whole of the proposals, but may I suggest that the Deputy Prime United Kingdom, so people across the United Kingdom Minister might have included in his roll call of thanks can look forward to this as providing a greater reflection the late Robin Cook, as it is often forgotten that under of opinions the length and breadth of the land. his leadership this House narrowly—by just three votes— failed to support an 80% elected Lords back in 2003? Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Will the The Deputy Prime Minister knows that these proposals Deputy Prime Minister give an undertaking that the will go nowhere unless he is prepared to use the Parliament Joint Committee that is to be set up will include Acts. Will he now commit to using them if these proposals representatives from the smaller parties represented in are blocked in the other place? Parliament, unlike the committee that he set up previously, which brought forward this Bill? The Deputy Prime Minister: As I have said, we are very keen to proceed on as consensual and pragmatic a The Deputy Prime Minister: This is clearly not something basis as possible. [Interruption.] If I may just finish, we for the Government to decide; it is up to the usual are presenting the Bill and the White Paper today. We channels, and I know that a number of conversations hope the Joint Committee will be established before the have already been had. Clearly, the ambition is—or summer, and it can then do a thorough job of applying should be, at least—that the Joint Committee embraces pre-legislative scrutiny to the proposals we are publishing the widest possible opinion from this House. 165 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)17 MAY 2011 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) 166

Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): When Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Against the asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest background of events a few days ago when the British (Mrs Laing) how one would resolve a clash between the people voted by 70% to throw out the alternative vote, two Houses, the Deputy Prime Minister said, “Well, has it not yet crossed the Deputy Prime Minister’s mind this is why we are going to have different electoral that he has probably been set up by his Tory friends to systems, with proportional representation for the reformed do this job today? Chamber.” Given that he believes that proportional representation is more democratic than first past the The Deputy Prime Minister: Never occurred to me, post, which of the two Chambers would he believe to be Mr Speaker—never. The hon. Gentleman seems to be taking the correct decision if there were a clash on the suggesting that any electoral change or changes to the basis that he outlined? electoral system can only be preceded by a referendum. It is worth remembering that we have changed electoral The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said earlier, as is set systems in this country on many occasions—for the out clearly under the Parliament Acts and in line with European Parliament, the London assembly, the Northern the convention that the Government are held to account Ireland Assembly and the Scottish Parliament—and primarily by this Chamber, the supremacy of this House that the Government are proposing to do it for elected would remain. mayors all without referendums.

Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): Only a fifth am surprised that the Deputy Prime Minister should be of the current Members of the House of Lords are focusing on this issue, given that in the local elections in women yet we still have the anachronism of places Sheffield people were bothered only about jobs, inflation effectively being reserved for men in the form of bishops. and getting his party out of the town hall. However, There might be differences of opinion in this House how can he describe his vision as “representative” or about the merits of all-women shortlists, but surely we “democratic”, given that it would give representation to can all agree that in terms of diversity the last thing those who are members of the Church of England but Parliament needs is de facto all-male shortlists. How would not give it to those of Jewish faith, Catholic faith will the Government take the opportunity presented by or Muslim faith? reforming the House of Lords to create a more diverse Parliament that better reflects society? The Deputy Prime Minister: The Catholic Church prohibits its bishops from sitting in Parliaments and The Deputy Prime Minister: We cover this in the political bodies. Leaders of other faiths—I was in discussion White Paper. My hon. Friend is right to say that a with the Chief Rabbi just yesterday—also recognise reform of the other place presents all political parties—and, that they do not possess the hierarchies that would I must stress, the party I lead in particular—with an allow them to provide that kind of representation. opportunity to have greater diversity in those who Those leaders of other faiths have long accepted, represent us in a reformed House of Lords. It is primarily acknowledged and supported the idea of continued for the political parties to decide how they will use the representation of the established Church in this country, mechanism of a new form of election to ensure that there even in a reformed House of Lords. is greater diversity in the candidates they put forward. Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): May I welcome Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): May I say the Deputy Prime Minister’s commitment to bringing to the Deputy Prime Minister that it is the view of many to House of Lords reform the same golden touch that on the Government Benches that we did not come to he brought to the AV referendum? In practical terms, this place to vote for measures that will undermine the what will a wholly or partly elected House of Lords be democratic supremacy and legitimacy of this House? It able to do that the current House of Lords cannot? is widely known that, as he said in his remarks, he has passionate and long-held views on what should happen The Deputy Prime Minister: It would fulfil the same to the other place. Others of us have equally strong and function as it has at the moment, but it would do so passionate opposing views. Why does he seem to be with far greater legitimacy because it would be more indicating to the House today that he is not going to directly accountable. Is the hon. Gentleman seriously follow the example of what happened in March 2007 proposing that there is something wrong with the argument and February 2003, when this House last voted on these of principle that those who have a hand in crafting the measures, and offer everyone in this House a free vote, laws of this land should be directly accountable to the so that they can vote with their conscience? millions of people who have to abide by the laws of this land? I understand that there is a lot of point-scoring The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course I acknowledge going on, but surely that basic principle is something that people will have different views, will feel strongly that even he would not deny. about the matter and will come at it from different directions. The fact is that last year all of us, notwithstanding Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I would like to some relatively minor differences between our manifestos, see every vote cast in our democratic Parliament cast by stood before the British people on manifesto commitments individuals who have been elected. We should all recognise, to see reform to the other place finally be delivered. We however, the widespread respect among our constituents will of course have further debates, deliberation and for the spoken contributions made in the other place argument, not least in the Joint Committee, but this is by Cross Benchers. Have my right hon. Friend or his Government business, this is in the coalition agreement committee considered measures by which they could be and it is a manifesto commitment from Members in all allowed to stay in the House of Lords so long as the parts of the House, and it should be proceeded with on votes were the exclusive preserve of those who had been that basis. elected? 167 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)17 MAY 2011 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) 168

The Deputy Prime Minister: Clearly, one of the features ago, the people of Brigg and Goole, on the same day of the proposal we are including in the draft Bill—namely, they kicked out their Labour council and replaced it 80% elected Members and 20% appointed by an with a Conservative council, also voted by a margin of independent statutory appointments body—is that those about 70% to reject a change in the electoral system. Is appointed Members would sit not as party representatives the electoral system also up for discussion along with but as Cross Benchers. the multi-Member constituencies? Is that something that the Deputy Prime Minister will at least listen to Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): May I suggest us on? to the right hon. Member that he is confusing legitimacy with accountability? Although election before one takes The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said, in the draft Bill office might give legitimacy, it certainly does not give we have proposed one system—the single transferable accountability. Accountability comes from an election vote—primarily because it seems to be the system that after one has done things over the 15 year period. Will gives the fullest individual mandate to elected Members he reflect on that? rather than casting them in a party political light. It is the individual independence of spirit in the other place The Deputy Prime Minister: I think the hon. Gentleman that everyone agrees should be preserved, but there are has some force to his argument, but one thing we were alternatives. In the White Paper—I know that Opposition keen to preserve in the cross-party committee was that Members feel particularly strongly about this—there is any reform should be designed in a manner that would the alternative of a party list system, which we have said allow elected Members of any reformed House of Lords is available to us, as explained in the White Paper. If to retain a certain independence and even distance from that is where the debate takes us, we are very open to party politics. A lengthy non-renewable term was seen those alternatives. as one way of delivering that, not only by the cross-party Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): Does committee that I chaired but by many other cross-party the Deputy Prime Minister share the views of his hon. committees that have considered the issue in the past. Friend the Liberal Democrat president, the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), that Members Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): Is it not the elected in a different Chamber by STV will have greater case that if Members of the second Chamber are elected legitimacy than Members of this House? Does he still on a constituency basis, however big those constituencies believe that Members elected in another Chamber will are, and members of the public disagree with what their be banned from then standing for election to this Chamber, Member of Parliament has advised them, they will and is that concordant with the Human Rights Act 1998? inevitably turn to Members of the second Chamber? Is the Deputy Prime Minister not therefore setting up a The Deputy Prime Minister: We have looked into the conflict that members of the public do not want to see? latter point and it is consistent with the Human Rights Act. The draft Bill envisages—this is something that The Deputy Prime Minister: First, as I said earlier, enjoyed cross-party support on the committee I chaired— this House will have the final say—that will remain. that someone from the other place would not be able to Secondly, I think there is a world of difference between stand for election to this place unless they had completed the number of people whom we all represent as Members a cooling-off period of one term. Clearly, we do not of this House and the hundreds of thousands who want to transform the other place into a sort of launch would be represented by individual elected Members in pad for people’s careers in this place. The reverse, however, any reformed House of Lords. That would be clearly would not be the case. understood by the public as providing a much greater and more direct mandate to those of us in this House Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Surely the answer to than to those elected to the other House. the points made by the hon. Members for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) and for Penistone and Stocksbridge Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (Angela Smith) is that the two archbishops and 10 (SNP): Can the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that he senior diocesan bishops will bring to a reformed House has had discussions with Scotland’s First Minister, Alex of Lords considerable wisdom and expertise. On the Salmond, on Lords reform? Given the wonderful and point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for East historic scenes we have seen with our Queen in Dublin Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) about diversity, I hope this afternoon, should not this Parliament also catch up that by 2015 the House will have had the opportunity of with the modern world and ensure that in a democracy voting to legislate for the appointment of women bishops. all Chambers try to reflect the democratic wishes of the The Deputy Prime Minister: That is a very important people they aim to represent? point, which shows that there is a chance of reform on several fronts, not just one. The Deputy Prime Minister: I spoke to the First Minister earlier today and explained to him in considerable Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): The Deputy detail what we are proposing, and we are both agreed Prime Minister speaks of supernumerary appointments—a that we will continue those discussions in the near rather complex word. Could it not be interpreted as future. unelected appointments by a Government who might even be tempted to pack the Lords? Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I broadly welcome the proposals to elect our second Chamber The Deputy Prime Minister: As I specified earlier, all and I shall certainly be supporting them. We have had we are envisaging is that if future Prime Ministers wish some assurances from the Deputy Prime Minister on to appoint Ministers, they must make sure that those the incredibly long term in office of 15 years. Two weeks Ministers are for the duration of their ministerial office 169 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)17 MAY 2011 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) 170

[The Deputy Prime Minister] Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Co-op): It is obviously right for a Government to held to account by either this place or the other place, proceed on a basis of consensus, given that this is a and that one way of achieving that objective, which is to major constitutional change and all three parties supported enhance and strengthen the accountability of the Executive it in their last manifestos, as the Deputy Prime Minister to the legislature, is to allow Prime Ministers in a small rightly pointed out. I hope that across the House Members number of cases to appoint Ministers on a supernumerary will do their best, when scrutinising the Bill, to ensure basis for a temporary period during the time that they that it becomes law so that the next elections can take hold ministerial office. place in 2015, as the right hon. Gentleman suggested. Does he agree that although it is important to proceed Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) on the basis of consensus, there is also a danger that (Con): A reform of the House of Lords is undoubtedly proceeding on too much consensus could lead to the needed, but this is not a reform measure. It contemplates lowest common denominator and a Bill being introduced the abolition of the House of Lords and, with that, that no one supports? There is already a danger that it reduced diversity and reduced expertise in our public will offend people who want a fully elected House and life. Why did not the Deputy Prime Minister use this offend everybody who is not a member of the Church opportunity genuinely to reform the House of Lords by of England. May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman adopting the Bill of the noble Lord Steel, which would that one of the lessons of the AV referendum is that if remedy many of the deficits that currently exist? people compromise too far, no one agrees with them and their proposals do not get anywhere? The Deputy Prime Minister: In many respects the provisions of Lord Steel’s Bill are in part covered by the The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course we need to get proposals that we are putting forward. For instance, the balance right in seeking to get as much support for one of the central planks of his Bill is that there should these measures as possible. Hon. Members should be an independent statutory appointments commission. remember that what we have published today was preceded That is exactly what is envisaged in this Bill. Another by several meetings of a cross-party committee where part of Lord Steel’s Bill provides for retirement of although there was not consensus on everything, there existing Members of the House of Lords. That has been was a considerable degree of consensus. I pay tribute to taken up by the Leader of the Lords already. I do not Members on the Opposition Front Bench who played think the ideas in Lord Steel’s Bill are incompatible with an active and constructive role in that, but as I said in the longer-term reforms that we are proposing today. my opening statement, this is a Government measure and the Government are determined to act. Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): How can someone elected for 15 years be democratically Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Like my neighbour, accountable if they cannot stand for election again? my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), I broadly welcome the proposals, which The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said earlier, every seem to be a natural extension of the democratic process. time that has been looked at on a cross-party basis, the However, it is important that electors identify with their conclusion has been reached that in order to entrench representatives and the area they represent. People generally rather than undermine the difference between the other do not identify with the English regions. I urge the place and this House, it is best to do so by giving any Government to rule out election by regions and consider elected Members of a reformed House of Lords a long, election by our historic counties. non-renewable term so that they are not subject to the normal short-term temptations of party politics, to which some of us might be subject in this place. The Deputy Prime Minister: We had precisely that discussion in the cross-party committee and, for the Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): May exact reason the hon. Gentleman sets out, we believe I remind the Deputy Prime Minister and the House that that the best basis on which to proceed—we will remit the Japanese recently reformed their upper House from the exact details to an independent panel of academics an appointed House to an elected House? That led to a and experts—is to have clusters of counties, because huge loss of talent, a situation where the upper House they are, quite literally, a familiar territory and a familiar has a complete veto over most legislation of the lower landscape for millions of voters up and down the country elected House, and legislative stalemate. Would we not and should be the building blocks of the large constituencies be very foolish to embark on these reforms? or districts that elected members of a reformed House of Lords would represent. The Deputy Prime Minister: First, I do not accept the principal assertion that if someone has the audacity to Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I welcome stand for election, somehow they do not have talent. the Deputy Prime Minister’s statement, but given that a That conclusion would not be favourable to anyone in poll released today shows that 74% of people are against the House. The assumption that wisdom and expertise unelected bishops having a place in our legislature, can be possessed only by those who have not subjected including 70% of Christians, and given that expertise themselves to election is an assumption that I have and wisdom are not the monopoly of any one religion, always found curious. Secondly, the hon. Gentleman will he look again at that aspect of the reform? refers to what happened in Japan, but he should look at bicameral systems across the democratic world that The Deputy Prime Minister: I hear the hon. Lady’s manage a relationship between one Chamber and the strength of feeling on the issue and respect it, but the other perfectly well, even though there is election to fact is that we have an established Church, which has both. always been reflected in its representation in the House 171 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)17 MAY 2011 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) 172 of Lords. As I said earlier, leaders of other denominations nations of the UK. Will the right hon. Gentleman give are very supportive of some form of continuation of consideration to the national Church of Scotland and that representation, even though it will be on a much other churches and faiths being included in some way, smaller scale than is presently the case. which I think is very important?

Several hon. Members rose— The Deputy Prime Minister: I sought to answer those Mr Speaker: Order. I am keen to accommodate remaining concerns earlier. What we are trying to do—it is not an colleagues who wish to speak, so I reiterate the merits of easy balance to strike—is to introduce reform while economy and self-restraint. maintaining a certain degree of continuity with where we have come from. That is why we arrived at the Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): My right decision—I stress again that it was arrived at on a hon. Friend was a Member of the European Parliament, cross-party basis in the committee that I chaired—that which moved from being an appointed body to an it was best to leave things broadly as they are but, as I elected one and, over time, has demanded more and have said, on a much smaller scale: 12 representatives in more powers, reflecting its democratic mandate. He is future, rather than 26. very consistent in saying that that will not happen in the case of a reformed House of Lords, but how can he Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): How can those build in some assurances to that effect? elected to the other place remain, to quote the Deputy Prime Minister, “one step removed from…day to day The Deputy Prime Minister: Those powers of the party politics”, when every third election Members of European Parliament were ultimately changed because the second Chamber will compete for votes with all of of a negotiation between it and national Governments. us in our constituencies? The conclusion we have reached, and which several other committees and cross-party commissions that The Deputy Prime Minister: That is a rather good have looked at this in the past have also reached, is that argument for the case, which was criticised earlier, of the way to avoid opening that Pandora’s box is simply non-renewable terms: such Members will not stand by asserting that the balance of power will remain as it again or, of course, in the same constituencies. We will is and as reflected in the Parliament Acts. That is have constituencies—certainly, after the boundaries are exactly what we are proposing. changed—where each of us represents just over 70,000-odd; Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Deputy they will seek to represent half a million-odd. It will be Prime Minister has clearly had a difficult few weeks. a completely different contest, held on a different mandate, May I give him some advice? I suggest that when he under a different system, for a different term, and I leaves the House today he speeds to the airport and gets believe that millions of British voters will be easily able a plane first to Sweden and then to New Zealand so that to distinguish between one and the other and to keep he can see how effective unicameral Parliaments work, the two separate in their own minds. and then he can come back with a different proposal. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I The Deputy Prime Minister: I think the hon. Gentleman think that this is the wrong priority at the wrong time, is suggesting that we should come forward with a proposal but if the Deputy Prime Minister is confident that we to abolish the other place altogether. need another constitutional adventure, why does he not test whether that is the will of the House? Mike Gapes indicated assent. The Deputy Prime Minister: That would probably The Deputy Prime Minister: The final Bill, which we meet an even more noisy reception that the balanced will bring forward after it has been subject to pre-legislative package that we have put forward today. scrutiny by a Joint Committee of the two Houses, will come to this House for a vote. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Would my right hon. Friend like to state clearly for the House what he Steve McCabe: Now. I mean now. believes the primary purpose of the second Chamber to be? Following the previous question, if the second The Deputy Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman Chamber did not exist, would he seek to create one? says “now”, but we have been criticised in the past for The Deputy Prime Minister: The House of Lords pushing forward with changes too quickly and not now, and a reformed House of Lords in the future, subjecting them to sufficient scrutiny. What we are would fulfil its task of review and scrutiny of Government doing now is moving very deliberately, very methodically business and Government legislation. I am not a and as consensually as possible, presenting a Bill with unicameralist, although a good case can be made for it our best guess of what would work legislatively; keeping and, as was mentioned earlier, there are plenty of mature the options on some key issues open in the White Paper; democracies that have only one Chamber. However, I and then inviting a cross-party Joint Committee to believe that the checks and balances in a mature democracy subject that to full scrutiny in the months ahead. I do are best met by two chambers. not think that we can be criticised either for moving too fast or for seeking to escape from proper scrutiny. Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): It will seem very strange in the 21st century for only one Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) faith and one Church to be represented in the reformed (Con): Does my right hon. Friend agree that the hereditary House of Lords, bearing in mind that that Church principle is wrong in principle? Whatever comes out of represents only England and not Scotland and the other these reforms, will he ensure that people do not take 173 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill)17 MAY 2011 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) 174

[Dr Daniel Poulter] elected at the general election after that. Until the final stage, the representation of all groups should be maintained in equal proportions part in the democratic process as a right of birth, and to now.” that people should be either elected or appointed to that We are introducing that idea of making changes by Chamber? thirds in the draft legislation that we have proposed. I hope that he would welcome that instead of trying to The Deputy Prime Minister: That is exactly what we make somewhat feeble political points. propose: that it is either by election or appointment, but not by heredity, that people will be represented in a Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): With a reformed House of Lords. democratic Chamber having been endorsed in all three major political parties’ manifestos, and indeed appearing Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): As someone who in the coalition agreement, what reassurance can the wishes the Deputy Prime Minister well in this effort, Deputy Prime Minister give to this House that he will may I ask him, first, why he believes that the Parliament do everything he possibly can and use every possible Act, which, unlike the written constitutions that other mechanism to ensure that we have the first elections to bicameral countries have, is not entrenched, will prevent the second Chamber in 2015? conflict between this House and the other place? Secondly, what are his specific proposals to reduce the risk of The Deputy Prime Minister: I can certainly give the conflict between Members who are elected for the same hon. Gentleman that assurance. I have sought to territory? Has he looked at non-geographic constituencies explain that we are determined to act to ensure that the for the other place? first elections to a reformed House of Lords take place in 2015, but not for want of trying to create genuine The Deputy Prime Minister: The idea proposed in the cross-party consensus on the way to proceed. That is Bill—again, I really should stress that this is not some why we held the meetings of the cross-party committee sort of new idea but a repetition and a re-presentation and why we are putting the Bill and the White Paper of an idea that many people have proposed in the out to the wider scrutiny of a Joint Committee. There is past—is that the geographical mandates are so different ample opportunity for everyone to make their that any meaningful overlap cannot really occur. The contributions, but, as he rightly implies, at the end of hon. Lady refers to the Parliament Act, but the Parliament the day this Government must act and will act. Acts are there to resolve conflicts where they become firmly entrenched, and we believe that the provisions of Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): As the Deputy the Parliament Acts should remain in place. Prime Minister headed off towards the high savannah with his bag of fudge, was he at all worried by the sound John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): I just want a little of tumbleweed blowing behind him as he spoke? Why further clarification on a question that one of my hon. did he not have the guts to go for a proposal that I Friends raised. Is it intended that elections to the new believe in, and that he really believes in, which is a House of Lords will coincide with general elections? 100% elected second Chamber with no prime ministerial What will happen if the date of a general election drops cronies and no assisted places scheme for Anglican out of the five-year cycle? bishops?

The Deputy Prime Minister: Yes, the idea is that they The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course there is a should be held on the same day if, for exceptional compelling case, for which I have argued for a very long reasons, there were to be a change in the fixed rhythm time, for a fully elected House of Lords. However, that we are seeking to enshrine in the Fixed-term anyone who takes even a cursory look at the unhappy Parliaments Bill. We have set out provisions in the Bill history of attempts to reform the House of Lords will and the White Paper to ensure that there is at least a conclude that one of the great problems occurred when minimum period during which elected Members of a people reached too far and made the best the enemy of reformed House of Lords could continue to serve. the good. It would be much easier to take the hon. Gentleman’s rather pious admonitions in favour of Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Constitutional 100% seriously if he had delivered more than 0% of reform is not a priority of my constituents; they showed elections in the 13 years when his party was in power. that, not least, in the AV referendum result recently, as did many others. I wonder why the Deputy Prime Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I welcome Minister is so keen to keep appointed Members of the the broad thrust of the Deputy Prime Minister’s statement, new Chamber. Is it perhaps because he knows that it is the draft Bill and the White Paper, but ask politely the only way of getting Lib Dems elected back into whether the only 80:20 split that is of any significance Parliament after the next election? to the success of this legislation is the 80:20 split on the Benches behind him, with 80% against his proposals The Deputy Prime Minister: That is a rather tired and 20% in favour. point to make at this stage of the debate. I agree that it is not a priority, but the hon. Gentleman none the less The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said, all the parties’ made a commitment to a referendum on the alternative manifestos are committed to reform of the House of vote and, indeed, to reform of the House of Lords. He Lords. They differ slightly, but they are all based on the shakes his head, but let me read out to him this simple principle that there would be a stronger, better, commitment from the Labour manifesto: more legitimate Chamber doing its work on behalf of “At the end of the next Parliament one third of the House of the British people more effectively if there were greater Lords will be elected; a further one third of members will be democratic accountability—and that is exactly what we 175 House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) 17 MAY 2011 176 are proposing. However, I acknowledge that the debate Fourth Carbon Budget should now continue by way of the Joint Committee.

Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Given that 4.41 pm recent events demonstrate that the British people want The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to retain first past the post, why is the Deputy Prime (Chris Huhne): Today I am announcing that the Minister insistent that the second Chamber will not be Government propose to set an ambitious target in law elected under that system? Could it be because it is in to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in line with the advice his party’s interests? from the independent Committee on Climate Change. Signing up to an ambitious fourth carbon budget will The Deputy Prime Minister: No. It really is worth result in no additional costs to consumers during this looking at the history of the cross-party commissions Parliament. We will, however, undertake a review of and Committees that have considered this matter in the progress in early 2014 to ensure that our carbon targets past, which by the way have been chaired by politicians are in line with those of the European Union. We are from all the major parties. Almost all of them came to working up a package of measures, to be announced by the conclusion that if we want to retain the precious the end of the year, to help energy intensive industries difference between one House and the other, it should adjust to the low-carbon industrial transformation while be reflected in a different electoral system. remaining competitive. By agreeing to the level proposed by the Committee Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): How on Climate Change, we are demonstrating our desire to sustainable does the Deputy Prime Minister believe it is drive the changes needed to turn the UK into a dynamic, to create a hybrid Chamber with two classes of Member, low-carbon economy that is attractive to investors in one in five of whom will be present without the approval the new and growing low-carbon sectors. We are also of the electorate? Would it not be much more sensible sending a clear signal to the international community and durable to create an entirely elected second Chamber? that the UK is committed to the low-carbon economy. That will help us to reach agreement in Europe on The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said earlier, I have a moving to a 30% emissions reduction target and build lot of sympathy in principle with the argument for a momentum towards a legally binding global climate wholly elected Chamber. However, I disagree with the change deal. hon. Gentleman because there is not much experience The Climate Change Act 2008 sets a target to reduce to support his case. Holyrood shows that elected greenhouse gas emissions in the UK by at least 80% representatives who have different mandates—in this from 1990 levels by 2050. It also requires Governments case there would be elected and appointed representatives to set carbon budgets, which are limits on greenhouse —are none the less able to co-exist and to do a job gas emissions in the UK for consecutive five-year periods. collectively on behalf of the British people. Carbon budgets must be set at least three budget periods in advance. They are designed to put emission reductions on an appropriate and cost-effective pathway to our 2050 target. The first three carbon budgets were set in 2009, following advice from the independent Committee on Climate Change. The fourth carbon budget, which sets the limit on emissions for the five-year period from 2023 to 2027, has to be set in law by the end of June 2011. As advised by the Committee on Climate Change, the level that we propose setting in law would mean that net emissions over the fourth carbon budget period should not exceed 1,950 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent, which is a 50% reduction from 1990 levels. As required by the 2008 Act, once the fourth carbon budget has been set in law, we will publish a report setting out the policies and proposals required in the medium and long term to meet the budget, building on the strong foundation provided by our existing policies. That will take the form of the revised Government carbon plan later this year, following the publication of the interim version in March. The Committee on Climate Change advised that we should aim to meet the budget through emissions reductions in the UK, rather than by relying on carbon trading, such as under the EU emissions trading system or the purchase of international credits from projects abroad. We will aim to reduce emissions domestically as far as is practical and affordable, but we also intend to keep our carbon trading options open, to maintain maximum flexibility and minimise costs in the medium to long term. Given the uncertainty involved in looking so far ahead, that is a pragmatic approach. 177 Fourth Carbon Budget17 MAY 2011 Fourth Carbon Budget 178

[Chris Huhne] different decision on this issue. We also know the many battles that he has lost within Government on the green Under the Climate Change Act, emissions reductions agenda, so I congratulate him on this progress. I welcome by the UK’s industrial and power sectors are determined the fact that he has not, after all, ducked the chance to by the UK’s share of the EU emissions trading scheme answer questions on this important matter and is here cap. That protects the UK industrial and power sectors before the House today. from exceeding EU requirements. However, if the EU ETS cap is insufficiently ambitious, it could mean I need to pick up on a point that the right hon. disproportionate strain being placed on sectors outside Gentleman made. He talked about our being on track the EU ETS, such as transport. To overcome that to meet the first three carbon budgets, but I do not problem, and to provide clearer signals for businesses really think that is thanks to the current Government. and investors, the Government will review progress We have seen a go-slow from him on green progress. towards the EU emissions goal in early 2014. If at that Can he reassure us that he, the Treasury and the Business point our domestic commitments place us on a different Secretary are united in delivering on these challenging trajectory from the one agreed by our partners in the targets? Can he be sure that he at least has the support EU under the ETS, we will revise up our budget as of the Prime Minister? appropriate to align it with the actual EU trajectory. In The importance of this decision cannot be overstated, line with the coalition agreement, the Government will and I shall not repeat what the Secretary of State clearly continue to argue for an EU move to a 30% target for laid out on the rationale behind the Climate Change 2020, and for ambitious action in the 2020s. Act 2008, which was established under the previous As part of the transition to a low-carbon economy, Government. However, I am puzzled about the 2014 we need to ensure that energy-intensive industries remain review that he announced, because it introduces new competitive and that we send a clear message that the uncertainty for those investing in the country’s greener UK is open for business. Before the end of the year, we future and breaks with the five-year cycle. He has will announce a package of measures for the energy- already failed to provide business certainty by delaying intensive businesses whose international competitiveness the green investment bank and pulling the rug from is most affected by our energy and climate change underneath the solar industry. It is therefore essential policies. Rising electricity costs pose a risk to those that the scope of that review is clarified so that it does businesses’ sectors, which are critical to our growth not do the same. agenda. We will therefore take steps to reduce the With those budgets now agreed, the Government impact of Government policy on the cost of electricity must deliver on policies to meet them. As I have said, we for those businesses, allowing them to continue to play have seen over the course of this year the Government their part in delivering our green industrial transformation. failing to deliver on their green promises. The long-awaited In that way, we will ensure that those sectors remain green investment bank is unable to borrow till 2015—no internationally competitive and send a clear message rush there!—and it is the subject of yet more disagreements. that the UK is open for business. Confidence in the renewables sector was shaken by a It is important to stress that the UK’s existing policies hasty and ill-conceived revision of the feed-in tariff, and already put us on track to meet the first three carbon of course, the commitment to zero-carbon homes was budgets. They also provide a strong foundation for the scrapped with no notice. fourth carbon budget, implying no additional near-term costs. We are reforming the electricity market, making The right hon. Gentleman’s confidence in his record homes and businesses more energy-efficient through the belies the facts. He needs to focus on his Department green deal, ensuring that new homes are built to a high and on the detail of this agenda, which is very important energy efficiency standard, encouraging the uptake of to the future not just of the UK, but of the world. For ultra-low carbon cars and setting up a green investment the UK to meet those targets, we need a clear plan from bank. the Government. The right hon. Gentleman talked about a strong foundation, which we need, but he needs to get Meeting the 1,950 million tonnes target that we propose real and to deliver on that. for the 2023 to 2027 period is ambitious but achievable. By providing long-term clarity for investors, the fourth We cannot meet our targets without a major reduction carbon budget places the UK at the leading edge of the in domestic emissions. It is therefore critical that the global low-carbon industrial transformation. It will Government make the improvements to the Energy Bill set Britain on the path to green growth, establish our that the Opposition have demanded. Most importantly, competitive advantage in the most rapidly growing sectors of they need to be clear on what carbon reductions the the world economy, generate jobs and export opportunities green deal will deliver, which, as we said last week, in those sectors, maintain energy security and protect cannot be left to the market to decide. our economy from oil price volatility. It is a framework Policy needs to be joined-up if we are to have the not just for action on climate but for growth and green industrial revolution that this country needs. We prosperity. are clear that there is cross-party agreement on the carbon-reduction trajectory, but I should like to ask a Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ few detailed questions of the Secretary of State. What Co-op): I thank the right hon. Gentleman for early will be the purpose and scope of the 2014 review, which sight of his statement this afternoon. May I make it I have already highlighted? Is there a prospect that the very clear that we welcome the fact that the Government Government will weaken the targets that he announced have finally made a decision on the fourth carbon today, or is he suggesting that they can only be tightened? budget? We know that it has been a rocky week for him, What are the Department of Energy and Climate Change as his colleague the Business Secretary sought a very and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills 179 Fourth Carbon Budget17 MAY 2011 Fourth Carbon Budget 180 doing to support energy-intensive industries? When will Despite the Opposition’s warm words, in 13 years of he have more detail on that? He alluded to that, but we a Labour Government not a single piece of turf was need more detail. turned in order to install a single new nuclear reactor, Will the Government introduce clearer aims for the yet work has already begun at Hinkley Point. The sense green deal, so that we can be clear on how it will of urgency in dealing with the climate change challenge contribute to the necessary emissions reductions? When displayed by this Government is of an entirely different will we see the national policy statements, including on order of magnitude. On clean coal and gas, about which nuclear? Will that happen before the summer? When the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) and some will the revised carbon plan be published? Will the of his friends are particularly concerned, the Government, Secretary of State and his Department consult widely in an extremely tough and difficult expenditure round on that? in which we have to clear up the mess inherited from the Labour party, found £1 billion to set aside for the first After scrapping the grant funding for wave and tidal—we commercial-scale carbon capture and storage project. still await the renewables obligation certificates review—how In 13 years under Labour, no money was put aside and will the UK gain a competitive edge in wave and tidal no planning was done for low-carbon growth. energy, in which we should be groundbreaking? Will the We will proceed with our national planning statements, Secretary of State introduce an accelerated timetable and there will be an interim review by the nuclear for the trial and deployment of industrial-scale carbon regulator, Mike Weightman, which I anticipate coming capture and storage for coal and gas? shortly. The hon. Lady asked a detailed question about Does the Secretary of State agree with the Committee road pricing. We have made it clear already that there on Climate Change that we need to be more explicit in will be no plans for that in this Parliament. I repeat, our support for new nuclear and onshore wind? Finally, however, that we are set on a road that will unlock what plans do the Government have for introducing enormous opportunities for British business, with a road pricing, as suggested by the Committee? Has he low-carbon economy and high growth. consulted the Transport Secretary? Is that a policy for the next Parliament, or is there an urgent need to Several hon. Members rose— legislate for vehicle use now? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I ask Chris Huhne: Perhaps I would be forgiven for wondering hon. Members to respect the convention that they do whether the hon. Lady and I have been living in the not question the Secretary of State if they were not here same country for the past few years. Given the picture for the entirety of his statement. that she is painting of policies that have been put in place to deliver on carbon budgets, she should perhaps Mr Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con): This is a most remember that our inheritance after 13 years of the welcome decision by the Government. Does my right previous Labour Government is that our renewable hon. Friend agree that there are considerable potential sector is 25th out of 27 EU member states. That is not a economic advantages for Britain in leading the world record of which the hon. Lady can be proud. As for towards a lower carbon economy? Does he further efforts to be made, for example, on energy efficiency, it agree that, although it is understandable that the took this Government to introduce the Energy Bill, Government should wish to retain the option of purchasing which legislates for the green deal, which is the most credits in order to achieve the target, the sooner that comprehensive attempt to deal with energy saving in option is ruled out, the greater the incentive will be for future. British business to invest in low-carbon technology? Since the hon. Lady asked, I can assure her that the carbon budget has been approved unanimously by the Chris Huhne: I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman, Cabinet and has the support of the Business Secretary, the Chairman of the Energy and Climate Change the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. It is an important Committee, who has made a powerful case in the past commitment by the Government, because it is the first for a low-carbon economy. This is no longer a set of commitment beyond the period for which the EU has cottage industries. We are talking about a sector of the legislated. Unlike the previous Labour Government’s British economy that employs 910,000 people, which is three carbon budgets, this one goes beyond what the growing extremely rapidly in a major world market, and EU requires of us. We have set it according to our own which offers us enormous opportunities. I have no domestic legislative framework and with our own domestic doubt that to those who move first and furthest will legislative agenda. come the great advantages of the low-carbon economy. The 2014 review will be simple and clear. On the On the point about purchasing credits, having in a traded sector, which is crucial to our international misspent youth practised economic forecasting and knowing competitiveness, we will review what is happening in the about the difficulties of getting forecasts right one or rest of the EU, because it is appropriate that we move at two years in advance, I think it makes pragmatic sense the same pace as the sector there. The hon. Lady to preserve a little flexibility when looking ahead as far mentioned that the green investment bank can borrow as 2023-27. in 2015, which is crucial because the second part of this decade will see the greatest need for borrowing powers Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): We are to ensure the installation of renewable and other low-carbon on track to meet our first three carbon budgets because energy. I am astonished by her description of what has of the policies put in place and pioneered by the Labour happened so far under this Government. We have set Government. The right hon. Gentleman is yet to deliver aside more than £800 million for a renewable heat on any of his flagship policies. When he speaks of incentive, and we are legislating for a carbon price floor. renewables, does he not have some concern about the 181 Fourth Carbon Budget17 MAY 2011 Fourth Carbon Budget 182

[Joan Ruddock] agenda than they are. That is the prevailing myth. I was recently speaking to my counterpart in Australia, who Ernst and Young report showing that only 13% of said that the entire debate there is about how only the UK-based corporates, financiers and clean-tech companies Australians are dealing with climate change and no one believe that the coalition will create an environmental else is. The reality is that enormous progress is being made success this year? on this agenda right across the board, including in India and China. The five-year plan that the Chinese have just Chris Huhne: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for established is enormously ambitious. Six of the largest her question. She has followed this area for many years renewables companies in the world are now Chinese. and has enormous expertise in it. However, if she is The Chinese are making an enormous commitment to going to claim the credit for meeting the current carbon offshore wind, as well as in more conventional sectors budget on the back of the previous Government’s record, such as nuclear. They are now the dominant player in she should be aware that an important contributor to solar photovoltaics, having taken the lead from Germany, the 28% reduction in our carbon emissions since 1990 so I simply do not accept that this is a world where we has been the depth of the recession. I am glad that she is are moving ahead of other people. We are moving at last owning up to the impact that those on the ahead together, but it will be the people who move Opposition Benches had on our economy. On the Ernst furthest and fastest who get the best prizes. and Youngreport, we are determined to set a framework that provides certainty and clarity for investors, and we Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): Will the Secretary will do so particularly with the electricity market reform of State confirm that, when he publishes the plan in the that we shall be announcing later. next couple of months, it will include an industrial plan Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): How exactly that supports the green economy, not only in the energy does the Secretary of State propose to ensure that the sector but right across the manufacturing sector in glass and ceramics, and steel and chemicals industries, areas such as white goods manufacturing and the which are high energy users, are not damaged by the production of electric cars? Will he also ensure that his taxes and regulations that he is proposing today? Department and BIS provide the support to ensure that we have all the necessary skills and investment? Chris Huhne: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his question. The energy-intensive work group that Chris Huhne: My hon. Friend makes a good point, we have set up between my Department and the and I know that it is a heartfelt one because of her Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will commitments to her constituency. I remember her being come forward with a set of measures by the end of the present when I opened the wind farm off Thanet. There year. That is a clear commitment. As he knows, there will be enormous opportunities as a result of our proposals. are a number of ways to help energy-intensive industries, We set aside £60 million for port transformation in the including the free allocation of units under the EU comprehensive spending review, for example, and we emissions trading scheme and encouraging a move towards now have some substantial commitments of interest, the use of biomass and biofuels, for example. We are including from Mitsubishi in Scotland, from GE and looking at all those measures to ensure that we can from Siemens in Humberside. Vestas is also talking balance the concerns of the energy-intensive industries about an area close to my hon. Friend’s constituency in as well as make substantial progress towards the low-carbon Kent. I believe that we will see an enormous amount of economy. investment in those crucial industries. Our carbon plan Malcolm Wicks (Croydon North) (Lab): The climate will focus on meeting our carbon objectives, but the change targets that the last Parliament legislated for work that BIS, in particular, is doing to lead the charge were arguably the most ambitious thing that any Parliament for the carbon economy is very important, and I am in this country has ever legislated for. I certainly welcome backing it completely. the broad thrust of the coalition Government’s proposals today, even if the Secretary of State failed to understand Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): I congratulate that turning over turf during his term of office depended the Secretary of State on stepping up to the plate on this on four years of preparatory work, which I am happy to issue; it is really good that he has established that it is discuss with him. he, and not the Business Secretary, who is in the driving Many of the goods that we consume in Britain used seat. I want to ask him about long-term clarity for to be manufactured in Britain. They are now manufactured investors. He mentioned that that was key, but he will in places such as China, thereby producing carbon appreciate that those wishing to invest in gas now risk emissions, and then imported into this country. Those seeing their investments stranded after 2025. It is extremely carbon emissions in China and elsewhere occur only important, when addressing that question, that he review because of demand from western societies such as ours. the proposals on electricity market reform to ensure Given that we are talking about a global phenomenon, that those investments can be maintained. does the Secretary of State have any ideas for how Europe as a whole can use its influence to bring about Chris Huhne: We have every intention of ensuring appropriate carbon reduction policies in places such as security of supply, and gas will perform an important China, India and elsewhere? role in that regard, in the short run and in the medium run. Given the worldwide potential for the exploitation Chris Huhne: The right hon. Gentleman’s question is of unconventional gas from shale and other formations, an interesting one, as I would expect, given his background it might well be the case that gas will play a long-term as an Energy Minister and his expertise in this field. part in our energy mix as well, through clean coal and Wherever one goes in the world, people will say that gas, and carbon capture and storage. I take the hon. everyone else is working much less hard on the low-carbon Gentleman’s point on board, however, and we will not 183 Fourth Carbon Budget17 MAY 2011 Fourth Carbon Budget 184 have stranded assets of the kind he describes. We will be Chris Huhne: I can assure my hon. Friend that we in introducing our proposals in the White Paper on electricity the ministerial team are absolutely committed to low-cost, market reform. affordable electricity. The last assessment the Department made—at the time of the annual energy statement, and Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I warmly welcome my we will make another at the next such statement—is right hon. Friend’s statement to the House today, and that the overall impact of our policies, including energy his commitment to ensuring that the UK will be the saving and the effects that my hon. Friend mentioned, first country in Europe to have legally binding emissions will add 1% to the cost of household energy bills in targets beyond 2020. Further to the point raised earlier 2020. As it happens, that was posited on a world oil by my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet price of $80 a barrel. As he knows, the oil price has (Laura Sandys), what can his Department do to ensure moved substantially beyond that. With oil prices and that the green growth industries are able to take full associated gas prices higher than $100 a barrel, our advantage of the opportunities that this statement and estimate is that our policies will save money for the the Government’s policy will provide? British household. I am not saying that British households Chris Huhne: We are determined that there should be will not face increases in the cost of gas and electricity enormous growth opportunities for low-carbon goods in future; what I am saying is that the policy mix of and services in the UK, and I would like to highlight energy saving and low-carbon electricity generation will two things that our Department can deliver. The first is give a better deal to British households than would the certainty required to enable investment in the reliance on imports of variable fossil fuels from volatile replacement of ageing power plant that we will need parts of the world. over the next 10 years. Ofgem has estimated a figure of £200 billion, which is roughly double the normal level Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) of investment in the UK, so this will be important in (Lab): Does the Secretary of State accept that purchasing powering the recovery over the next few years. The carbon offsets abroad as a means of meeting carbon second is the provisions in the Energy Bill, the Second emission reduction targets in the UK is deeply flawed Reading of which took place last week. The green deal, on grounds of additionality, leakage and uncertain which is set out in the Bill, will provide the opportunity duration and that, in any case, they do not achieve the for an enormous number of new jobs. We calculate that ostensible objective of decarbonising Britain? What we will move up from the present figure of 27,000 jobs precise proportion of the 29% cut in carbon emissions in the insulation sector to 100,000 by 2015 and that, at planned between now and 2027 do the Government its peak, the policy will result in 250,000 jobs right intend or expect to be achieved via carbon offsets? across the industry, which will have to retrofit every home in the country. My hon. Friend is absolutely right Chris Huhne: I can assure the right hon. Gentleman to highlight the enormous job-creating potential for that we intend to try to meet all the reductions we have these industries, and we will keep that matter very much set out from our domestic activity. That is the clear in the forefront of our minds. intention of setting out the fourth carbon budget as we Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I have. However, given the enormous uncertainties of congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on coming out making projections so far in advance, it would not be on the right side of the scrap in Cabinet over the fourth sensible for us to rule out the flexibility afforded by carbon budget. Does he accept, however, that according carbon trading at the relevant time. to the Climate Change Act 2008, a fourth carbon budget with a review in 2014 will not really be a fourth carbon Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): If my right hon. Friend budget in law? Can he confirm that a review in 2014 is going to meet these targets by reducing emissions would not change the law as far as the fourth carbon here, it will mean reducing a lot of emissions from budget was concerned? If that is the case, why should domestic housing. Will he give us more information there be a review? about how he is going to achieve that with existing housing, and what exactly does he mean when he talks Chris Huhne: The key point of having a review is to of ensuring that new homes are built to a high energy make sure that in the tradeable sector, where we have efficiency standard? What is a high energy efficiency industries exposed to international competition—and standard in relation to zero carbon? we want them to thrive—industries are not exposed to unique costs that will not be imposed on the competition Chris Huhne: My hon. Friend knows that the lead in the EU. That is what the review is designed to Department on zero-carbon homes is the Department achieve. Under the Act, any review will have to be for Communities and Local Government. It has set out preceded by a recommendation from the Climate Change its thoughts on this issue. I am pleased to see that we Commission—and we have absolutely no plans to change intend to continue with the substantial improvement in that, so it will depend on recommendations from that energy efficiency standards in the 2013 and 2016 building commission. regulations. On that basis, we will move quickly towards Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): I welcome a zero-carbon homes standard, which will make a major my right hon. Friend’s ambitious announcement. I remind contribution to meeting our long-term carbon reduction him that in evidence to the Energy and Climate Change goals of 80% by 2050. Select Committee, Lord Turner said that our carbon targets might lead to an appreciable increase in domestic Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I welcome energy prices. I urge the Secretary of State to roll out the Government’s acceptance of a 50% emissions cut by the green deal with all speed to ensure that any domestic 2025, but like others I am deeply concerned that behind energy price increase is offset by the energy saving a headline that looks so good in theory is something elements of that green deal. that risks being a sham. In reality, a significant proportion 185 Fourth Carbon Budget17 MAY 2011 Fourth Carbon Budget 186

[Caroline Lucas] attempt to build climate change policies in one country would not be an unalloyed success. We must keep a of the reduction will be happening in other countries. weather eye on the competitiveness of our industries What impact does the Secretary of State expect that to and on what is going on overseas, but we have set a very have on the “green industrial transformation” that he clear direction. We will be ambitious in our climate says that he wants? Such a transformation will not change goals, and I am determined for us to drive the happen if we pay other countries to do the work for us. growth of these new opportunities and industries as a result. Chris Huhne: I can add very little to what I have already said to the right hon. Member for Oldham West Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): The Secretary and Royton (Mr Meacher). We are, in fact, dealing with of State has led the House to believe that a review of a period that is very far off—well beyond the normal progress early in 2014 was intended to ensure that the range of economic forecasting—and it is sensible for us emissions trading system trajectory agreed by the EU to exercise a measure of flexibility in relation to the way could be revised up. Can he rule out the possibility that in which we achieve our aim. However, I can assure the those ambitious targets will be revised down? hon. Lady—as I assured the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton—that we intend to meet this Chris Huhne: Were our EU partners to move even budget from our domestic activity. That is absolutely in further and faster than we are currently suggesting, we line with everything that I have said about encouraging might indeed see revision in the other direction, but I low-carbon goods and services. think that the hon. Gentleman accepts as much as I do The hon. Lady should also bear in mind that even the that the chances of that happening appear to be remote flexibility that is afforded by trading will be limited by at the moment. I think that we are making progress with the existence or otherwise of far cheaper opportunities our aim to achieve a 30% reduction in carbon emissions to ameliorate the position by mitigating carbon emissions by 2020. A number of other countries have joined us in outside the country rather than inside it. I believe that the call for that, including, recently, Denmark, Sweden the more we invest in the industries that I have mentioned, and Spain, and I am confident that we will make further and the more “learning by doing” that we do, the progress among our partners in the months to come. greater will be the chance of our meeting our targets entirely from domestic activity, which is what we intend Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I welcome to do. my right hon. Friend’s statement. Businesses in my part of west Yorkshire are already playing a major part in Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): I strongly the green economy.David Brown Engineering in Lockwood welcome the statement. What contribution does the make the gears for offshore wind turbines and is very Secretary of State think demand-side measures are appreciative of a £2 million investment from the regional likely to make in a reformed electricity market, particularly growth fund for a research centre there, TEV Ltd in given the focus on negawatts? Brighouse is investing in air source heat pumps, and the then Conservative-run Kirklees council introduced the Chris Huhne: The concept of negawatts is very important. Warm Zone scheme. Does my right hon. Friend agree Let me explain to those who have not followed the that as we cut emissions, the number of green jobs will debate that it means we should be able to trade into the increase? electricity system savings in terms of energy and not merely electricity generation. That concept is part of Chris Huhne: I certainly do. I think this presents an the consultation that we are currently considering about enormous opportunity for the future. There will be electricity market reform, and I believe that it will be a enormous numbers of jobs in energy saving and in the crucial part of our reform proposals. There are several other low-carbon goods and services, and that will be different aspects, but I am sure the hon. Gentleman will the case right across the country. There will be no bias not be disappointed when he sees the results. towards one region or another—no bias towards London and the south-east, for instance—because homes, and Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): The proposals on therefore the industrial opportunities, exist everywhere. climate change are extremely important. Can the Secretary of State assure the House that they will receive his full Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Secretary of State attention over the coming days and weeks? has explained why he is resiling from the Committee on Climate Change advice to forgo the carbon trading Chris Huhne: I can indeed. option, but is he proposing to sidestep any of its other recommendations? Also, do any of his concerns for Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): The strategy announced ensuring the competitiveness of energy-intensive industries today contains a “ripcord”: the targets will be reviewed and for signalling certainty to investors extend to feeling in 2014 if they prove to be more aggressive than those of regret about the adverse impact of the Chancellor’s raid our European Union partners. Does my right hon. on the CRC scheme? Friend agree that that will be important to energy-intensive industries in Britain which are themselves important to Chris Huhne: We have not accepted a number of the our future prosperity and the creation of jobs? other detailed recommendations in the committee’s report, but the trading one is an obvious example. It also asked Chris Huhne: I do. I noted the criticism from Opposition us to set a target for 2030, and we do not see the need Members, and I refer them to a bit of socialist history. for that. I am not a great believer in intermediate targets The attempt to build socialism in one country under Joe when we have a very clear overall carbon budget, but Stalin was not an unalloyed success, and, similarly, an given our commitment to a target figure of 1,950 million 187 Fourth Carbon Budget17 MAY 2011 Fourth Carbon Budget 188 tonnes for the overall carbon budget for 2023 to 2027, Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I, too, am nobody should be in any doubt about the thrust of our pleased that we got a statement on this today, but I am policy or our determination to meet our target. I have a anxious about the future and viability of energy-intensive very strong preference for achieving what we are actually industries, such as those in my constituency which have trying to do, which is to cut carbon emissions, rather been the backbone of the north-east England economy. than for setting a whole group of intermediate targets, They have done much to reduce emissions already, but but that we will do. what will the Government do to help with transition funding, possibly through the growth fund or other Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I warmly mechanisms, to ensure that such industries can make welcome the Government’s decision to accept the further change and develop in the future? independent committee’s advice. Further to the question I asked my right hon. Friend on Second Reading of the Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman is right to mention Energy Bill, can he confirm that the Government report the growth fund, which is having a tremendous impact setting out the policies and proposals required to meet in bringing in a vast amount of private investment the budget will include an assessment of the contribution where it would not otherwise have been occurring; that each will make so that the House can assess the value is definitely a tremendous innovation. In addition, we for money that they offer? are and will be developing the package for the energy- intensive industries, which I mentioned earlier. That is Chris Huhne: I am concerned to ensure that all our being done with our colleagues in the Department for policies offer real value for money. I believe the only Business, Innovation and Skills, and it will be coming way we will be able to hold public consensus behind forward by the end of the year. We want balanced what is a very ambitious programme of industrial change growth so that all parts of the economy can benefit is if we show we are really ensuring that we get value for from a robust economy. taxpayers in each policy we pursue. That is why we had to take the decision we took on solar feed-in tariffs. David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I, too, wish to add Although everything was unchanged below two tennis my thanks to the Government and welcome the steps courts-worth, we have had to review the solar tariffs for being taken to move to a low-carbon economy. It is also the larger scale solar because we are determined to get encouraging to see the great work being done by community good value for money. That is crucial. I also take on groups, particularly Macclesfield Transition Town and board the fact that the OECD’s latest country report Food4Macc in my area, to support these ambitions. urged us to look at the different implicit carbon prices Can my right hon. Friend tell the House what steps he is in our policies across the board. I very much take that taking to engage these community groups in helping to to heart and we will look at it. I can therefore assure my achieve these very important targets? hon. Friend that we will address value for money, and that it is foremost among our considerations in delivering Chris Huhne: We are keen to engage community good policy. groups; the ministerial team does a lot of visits and makes sure that we are talking to members of civil Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Does society and, of course, to non-governmental organisations, the Energy Secretary believe that it would help to achieve which have an important influence on community groups. his carbon targets if the speed limit for cars were This is also particularly crucial in an area that I know lowered, or does he think the speed limit for cars should can be controversial, even among those on the Government be raised, as do the Transport Secretary and, presumably, Benches: proposals for onshore wind. I think that that the Energy Secretary’s wife? is a beautiful form of renewable energy, although I know that that opinion is not always shared across the Chris Huhne: The Transport Secretary has responsibility House. It is an important part of our strategy to get for these matters, and it is well above my pay grade. community groups involved and owning these policies, and some interesting proposals have been made. For Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I thank the Secretary example, the biggest proposal for onshore wind is the of State for his statement and welcome the Government’s Viking proposal for Shetland and it is half-owned by ambition in this area. Given the critical role local authorities the community group that supports Shetlanders. So I must surely play in delivering their goals, how does the am very much in favour of the sort of engagement that Secretary of State intend to help local councils do their my hon. Friend has rightly suggested. bit? Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Given his comments Chris Huhne: The most important way in which this today and previously, the Secretary of State is obviously Government can help local councils be innovative, creative keenly aware of the danger of carbon leakage, particularly and imaginative is to get away from telling them what to if the Government proceed to reduce emissions through do from Westminster. We must remove ring-fencing and unilateral taxation on the energy-intensive industries. make sure local councils can take responsibility for So what consideration has he given to an annual assessment their own decisions. As my hon. Friend knows, we have of UK emissions on a consumption basis—an assessment some robust debates about the priorities between different taking into consideration imported goods—because that levels of government in Hampshire, and that is as it would act as a real incentive for us to reduce our should be. Those priorities are determined by the emissions properly here in the UK? councils—whether the county council at Winchester by the Conservatives, or the district council at Eastleigh by Chris Huhne: The hon. Lady raises an important the Liberal Democrats. They make different decisions issue that people periodically talk about, which is that and it is proper that they should then be accountable to no matter how well we do in the UK, we are not making local people for those decisions. a difference to the world as a whole if we are merely 189 Fourth Carbon Budget17 MAY 2011 Fourth Carbon Budget 190

[Chris Huhne] sector of the economy. This March, Verso Economics produced a report for the Scottish Parliament that outsourcing production of carbon-intensive goods to showed that for every job created in the renewables economies such as China. However, I would make two sector 3.7 jobs were destroyed in the rest of the economy. points in response, the first of which is that we should How does he marry that report’s conclusions with the not underestimate the progress being made in economies statements he has been making? such as India and China to grapple with and move very fast on this agenda. The Department and the Government Chris Huhne: For every report that reaches the sort of are working with the low-carbon pilot areas in China the conclusion that the hon. Gentleman is suggesting, I and the developments are truly impressive, so I urge her can point him to other reports that suggest exactly the to look at them. We are aware of this issue, but I do not opposite. The OECD, which is probably the most respected think that any time soon we will be able to move and authoritative of international economic organisations, globally towards a situation where we are taking into has done some very good work on green growth. We account the embedded carbon emissions in trade. The have had a very important study from Potsdam in reality is that most of the nearly 200 countries that are co-ordination with a number of leading economists members of the United Nations are fiercely protective from Oxford and elsewhere that suggests that there are of their own territorial sovereignty, so it seems likely positive growth effects through investment and learning that our major efforts to tackle climate change will be by doing. Recently, I received a very important note based on states’ control of their own territorial integrity. from Professor Nick Stern—Lord Stern—arguing that the attempts to see his report as imposing costs on the Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I congratulate economy were simply mistaken. He feels very strongly the Secretary of State on accepting the ambitious fourth that the move to low-carbon goods and services involves carbon budget recommended by the Committee on enormous opportunities and that the increase in investment Climate Change. His statement highlights how vital it is involved can help to power us out of an exceptionally to increase the EU carbon emission reduction target deep recession. That is perhaps a long answer to show from 20% to 30% by 2020, so how will the Government that when two economists are in a room, there are redouble their efforts to secure that agreement and, in sometimes three opinions. None the less, the balance of particular, to get a significant tightening of the EU argument is very much against the hon. Gentleman’s emissions trading scheme cap? point. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ Chris Huhne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that Co-op): The Secretary of State has made a number of question. We have made substantial strides in the direction points this afternoon, but one point that came out of of securing an agreement and a number of countries in the findings and recommendations of the Committee the EU are clearly signed up to the 30% ambition level on Climate Change was that international aviation and for 2020. A number of other countries would like to go shipping should be included in future carbon budgets. beyond 20%. The European Commission is the key Does he agree with that recommendation? player and one of the points that it is making—rightly I think—is that if we as a European Union were to Chris Huhne: It is certainly one thing that we intend deliver on just the energy efficiency commitments that to consider. It is important, but there are obviously we have already made, we could get to a 25% cut in technical issues to be resolved and discussions are ongoing carbon emissions by 2020 without any additional cost. within Government. When we reach a conclusion, we There is a lot of progress to be made on this agenda and will make an announcement. I and my ministerial colleagues are pressing that point at all the meetings we attend in Brussels and elsewhere. I Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): This issue believe that we are making good progress. should transcend party politics, but I regret to say that some of the Secretary of State’s actions do not live up Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): One issue for to his rhetoric. This morning, I met representatives intensive energy users is the cumulative effect of from East Midlands airport whose ambition is to make Government policies on their competitiveness. Has the its ground operations carbon-neutral. The plan was to Minister carried out a full impact assessment of the provide 36% of the airport’s energy requirements through cumulative effect of climate policies and, if not, will he a major photovoltaic scheme that has now been made commit to doing so? unviable as a result of the wholesale butchery of feed-in tariffs. Will the Secretary of State tell the House whether Chris Huhne: The group that is considering the impact he has abandoned photovoltaic cells as a way of generating on energy-intensive industries is certainly taking into energy and what advice can he give to East Midlands account all the impacts of policy as well as the other airport about its ambition to deliver a carbon-neutral impacts. Obviously, some effects on energy-intensive target? industry have nothing to do with policy and there are some macro-economic effects, such as the relative Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman should perhaps be competitiveness gained through the improvement in the aware that the intention of the feed-in tariff scheme was real exchange rate. We will take account of all those to encourage microgeneration. Any proposal that involves factors when we come to conclusions about the measures less than two tennis courts-worth of solar photovoltaic necessary to help energy-intensive industries. cells will be completely unchanged by the review that we have announced, so he is clearly referring to a scheme Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): that is very much bigger than that. All I would say is The Secretary of State has mentioned on a number of that we have to look at value for money. I am surprised occasions the increased number of jobs in the renewables that Opposition Members think that that is a revolutionary 191 Fourth Carbon Budget 17 MAY 2011 192 concept but it is important to consider value for money. Dangerous Driving (Maximum Sentence) If we had not announced the review, we would have found that a very large part of some of our finest shire Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order counties would, instead of disappearing under oil seed No. 23) rape or some more conventional crop, have been disappearing under solar photovoltaics. That was not, I am sure, the intention of the Opposition. It certainly is 5.39 pm not our intention and that is why we have acted. Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): I beg Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): Does to move, the Secretary of State accept the commission’s finding That leave be given to bring in a Bill to increase the maximum about seeking a reduction of 44% in emissions from sentence for a conviction of dangerous driving from two years to surface transport by 2030 in comparison with the figures seven years; and for connected purposes. for 2008? If he does, will he make representations to the Before my election to the House, I worked as a Secretary of State for Transport to put right the cuts in criminal barrister. One of the last cases that I was the budgets for electric-powered and hybrid vehicles instructed in was defending a dangerous driver. I recall that were made in the spending review, which put the the grim expression on the face of the Crown Court long-term viability of those industries at risk? judge when I got into the mitigation, not because I was wrong to ask for leniency, but because the law gave the Chris Huhne: I do not think that the policies that my judge insufficient discretion to mark the offence with an right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport appropriate punishment. The driving was bad, but not has introduced can be characterised in the way that the the worst the judge had seen. Nevertheless, it was hon. Gentleman suggests. We recently did some calculations horrendous driving. I was keen to emphasise that it was that suggested that, given the prices we have at the not the worst of its kind. I finished my address by petrol pump today, it makes sense to buy an electric asking the judge to allow the defendant full credit for vehicle because of the subsidies that the Secretary of his guilty plea, and sat down knowing that I had done State for Transport has announced in co-operation with my best for my lay client. my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. I believe that the framework has been set for very rapid growth in this Coincidently, one of the first cases that I dealt with as area and I am confident that that is what we will see. a Member of the House concerned the victim of dangerous driving, Katie Harper. Her case motivated me to push Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): As the continuing for a change in the law. Dangerous driving requires the and intensifying nightmare of Fukushima has undermined prosecution to show that the driving falls far below the public’s confidence in nuclear, and because no nuclear what would be expected of a competent and careful power station, old or new, has ever been built on budget, driver, and that it would be obvious to a competent and on time or without public subsidy, does the Secretary of careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous. State still persist in his belief that nuclear power stations There is no definition of “far below”, but the danger can be built here without public subsidy? If so, will he must be either that of injury to any person or serious explain who will pay the billions in insurance and damage to property. The offence is not made out where compensation if a major incident occurs? Will it be the the driving is less than truly dangerous. industry or, as in Japan now, the taxpayer? The sentences handed down by judges leave victims feeling let down by the justice system when the offender Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman has a long track is released from prison after just a few months, by which record of concern on this subject, which I respect. Some time the victims have not even started to come to terms of the answers to his questions will be there when we with the damage that the offender has caused. Victims see the interim and then the final report from the chief of dangerous driving are sometimes left brain damaged, nuclear inspector, Mike Weightman. I hope that we can paralysed or with amputations. The perpetrator will of bring that forward very rapidly and then the hon. course be punished, but the law does not currently Gentleman will be able to see for himself. He is right in allow the sentencing judge enough discretion to provide one respect, on which I entirely agree with him: if there anything like the result that victims might expect. However, is to be, as the nuclear industry hopes, a nuclear renaissance, in the case of a serious assault, such as grievous bodily it is absolutely crucial that the nuclear industry shows harm, the sentencing judge has at his disposal the that it can deliver on time and to budget. Investors will discretion to mark the offence with a sentence that not come forward on a repeated basis if that is not the reflects the harm caused to the victim. case. My constituency case helped me understand the real I can certainly confirm that we will not be providing effect on victims of dangerous driving where injury public subsidy to nuclear and that we see nuclear as part results. In 2009, Katie Harper was a healthy 23-year-old of the energy mix for the future provided that safety English degree student until she was hit by another car concerns are met—we have the Mike Weightman review overtaking a line of traffic at seriously excessive speed. to be announced shortly—and provided that investors Her passenger was her mother, Christine. Katie suffered are prepared to come forward. At the moment, the multiple breaks to her pelvis, two broken arms, facial indications are that investors are prepared to come injury and serious nerve damage to her right leg. Her forward provided that we put in place, as I believe the mother has also been left with permanent injuries after House has already done with the regulatory justification, the near-fatal incident. The entire family have suffered. the necessary steps to facilitate the normal big infrastructure Katie’s father, Paul Harper, retired early from his job as spending that it involves. a primary school teacher to provide the round-the-clock support that his wife and daughter need. My constituents’ case is by no means the worst. 193 Dangerous Driving (Maximum 17 MAY 2011 Dangerous Driving (Maximum 194 Sentence) Sentence) [Karl Turner] ways less than the one who was lucky and did not. How is that justice? My motivation is compounded by the The House will remember the tragic case of Cerys forthcoming justice Bill, which proposes to increase the Edwards, an 11-month-old toddler. The Edwards family discount for an early guilty plea from one third to 50%, were the victims of a dangerous driver in 2006. Cerys which means that even the worst example of dangerous has needed round-the-clock care since the collision. The driving will attract a starting sentence of only 12 months. driver was doing 70 mph in a 30 mph zone. He lost I am grateful for the cross-party support I have control of his mother’s Range Rover while overtaking. received for my Bill. Over the past few weeks, I have Cerys was left severely paralysed, brain damaged and spoken with right hon. and hon. Members from across reliant on a ventilator to breathe. The dangerous driver the House, and their advice and encouragement has was released from prison after just six months. Cerys’s been gratefully received. I am grateful to Louise Casey, father, Gareth Edwards, is reported to have said, “It just the Victims’ Commissioner, for her support and invaluable goes to show we don’t have a justice system in this advice. I have also discussed my proposal with my area country”, when he heard that the offender had been chief constable, Tim Hollis, who fully supports my released. efforts. The charity Brake welcomes the proposals and Many judges have described in their sentencing remarks the AA, Aviva and the RAC have also committed their their frustration at the inadequacy of the law. In researching support. my Bill I took the time to seek advice from the Recorder I know that my proposal is unlikely to find its way on of Hull and East Riding, His Honour Judge Mettyear. to the statute book in its current form, but I hope that Judge Mettyear told me that every judge in the country those on the Government Front Bench will take on would, in his view, want to support this proposal. There board the points that you, Mr Speaker, have allowed me is a clear anomaly in the law. Dangerous driving carries to make. The Bill requires a simple amendment to a maximum sentence of two years, whereas causing paragraph 9 of schedule 2 to part 1 of the Road Traffic death by dangerous driving is worth 14 years. Offenders Act 1988. The effect, however, would be To highlight the disparity, let us imagine the following substantial. The Bill would allow judges the discretion situation. Two young men who own powerful cars spend to redress the balance in favour of the victim. The a Saturday afternoon with friends in a park. One suggests proposed legislation addresses an anomaly in the law to the other that they should have a race. The friends and offers a proper deterrent. I respectfully invite the warn them of the danger. One of them is not so keen, House to support it. but he is heavily encouraged by his girlfriend, who offers Question put and agreed to. to accompany him. He reluctantly takes up the offer Ordered, and they race through the crowded streets, overtaking That Karl Turner, Anna Soubry, Mr Elfyn Llwyd, each other in the face of oncoming traffic, which has to Mr John Leech, Julie Hilling, Chris Evans, John Mann swerve to avoid collision. They continue at great speed and Andrea Leadsom present the Bill. in order to escape the police. As they try to navigate a bend, they lose control. One of them ploughs into a bus Karl Turner accordingly presented the Bill. stand, causing serious injury. The other manages to Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on swerve to avoid the bus stand but hits a tree. His Friday 9 September, and to be printed (Bill 190). girlfriend, who is a passenger, is tragically killed. The other driver is lucky and does not cause death, but he LOCALISM BILL (WAYS AND MEANS) leaves his victim paralysed and permanently brain damaged. Resolved, The one who causes the death will face up to 14 years That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Localism imprisonment. The one who leaves the innocent victim Bill, it is expedient to authorise— paralysed and brain damaged will face a maximum of (a) the making of provision in relation to income tax, corporation two years imprisonment. This sentence must then be tax, capital gains tax, stamp duty, stamp duty land tax or stamp reduced by one third, as credit for pleading guilty, and duty reserve tax in connection with a transfer of property, rights then further because it is not considered the worst such or liabilities by or under the Act; and (b) the making of provision for a body not to be exempt from case that the judge has seen. The offender will serve a corporation tax, income tax or capital gains tax where in pursuance matter of a few months in prison, but what sentence of the exercise of functions of the Greater London Authority the does his innocent victim face? In this scenario, the body carries on activities for a commercial purpose.—(Robert culpability of the driver who caused death was in some Neill.) 195 17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill (Programme) (No. 2) 196

Localism Bill (Programme) (No. 2) Proceedings Time for conclusion of proceedings

Remaining new Clauses relating to 6.00 pm Part 6, amendments to Clauses 121 5.49 pm to 133, amendments to Schedule 14,amendments to Clauses 134 to The Minister of State, Department for Communities 140, amendments to Schedule 15, and Local Government (Greg Clark): I beg to move, amendments to Clauses 141 to 150, amendments to Schedule 16, That the Order of 17 January 2011 (Localism Bill (Programme)) amendments to Clause 151, be varied as follows: amendments to Schedule 17, amendments to Clauses 152 to 156, 1. Paragraphs 4 and 5 shall be omitted. amendments to Schedule 18, 2. Proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading shall be remaining new Clauses, remaining completed in two days. new Schedules, amendments to Clauses 201 to 203, amendments to 3. Proceedings on Consideration shall be taken on the days Schedule 24, amendments to shown in the first column of the following Table and in the order Clauses 204 to 207 and remaining so shown. proceedings on Consideration. 4. Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously 5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption second column of the Table. on the second day. I will briefly introduce the motion. It is delightful to TABLE see that so many Committee members have come back for a second round. From the outset of our deliberations on the Bill, we said that we regarded the legislation as Proceedings Time for conclusion of proceedings something that could benefit from the expertise that exists both within the House and outside. First day We have been true to that statement, and we had a New Clauses relating to Part 1, 7.30 pm very interesting set of sessions in Committee: 24 sittings new Schedules relating to Part 1, amendments to Clause 1, and 64 hours’ scrutiny. I probably spent more time amendments to Schedule 1, during that period in the company of the hon. Member amendments to Clauses 2 to 10, for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley), at least amendments to Schedule 2, amendments to Clause 11, during waking hours, than I did with my wife—although amendments to Schedule 3, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison amendments to Clauses 12 to 14, Seabeck) sort of doubled up on that time. We considered amendments to Schedule 4, amendments to Clauses 15 to 29, every clause in the Bill and finished its scrutiny with a new Clauses relating to Part 2, little time to spare, so we made good progress. new Schedules relating to Part 2 and amendments to Clauses 30 During the Bill’s passage, we established an atmosphere to 34. that was constructive, usually harmonious and often New Clauses relating to Part 5, new 10.00 pm uproarious, even. I do not know whether the remaining Schedules relating to Part 5, stages will live up to the high benchmark that we set, amendments to Clause 89, amendments to Schedule 8, but we should aim to take matters in the same spirit—I amendments to Clauses 90 to 96, certainly intend to—today, tomorrow and, indeed, when amendments to Schedules 9 to 11, the Bill goes to another place. This is a Bill in which amendments to Clauses 97 to 101, amendments to Schedule 12, there are invested the hopes and expectations of many amendments to Clauses 102 to 107, people outside this place, and we owe it to them to amendments to Schedule 13, reflect seriously on the matters that are before us and, amendments to Clauses 108 to 120, new Clauses relating to Part 4, new where we can be constructive, to be so. Schedules relating to Part 4, I hope Members will recognise that the large number amendments to Clauses 39 to 56, amendments to Schedules 5 and 6, of Government amendments is testimony to some of amendments to Clauses 57 to 64, my commitments in Committee to reflect seriously on amendments to Schedule 7 and the points that were made and to come back to the amendments to Clauses 65 to 88. House in a constructive way. There have been discussions Second day across the House and with outside bodies in helping to New Clauses relating to Part 3, 4.00 pm new Schedules relating to Part 3, shape that approach, and no doubt they will come out amendments to Clauses 35 to 38, in our debates over the next two days. new Clauses relating to tax in connection with provisions of It is comparatively unusual to have two days on Parts 6 and 7, new Schedules Report, but the Bill’s significance and extent justify it. relating to tax in connection with Nevertheless, I hope that the hon. Member for Worsley provisions of Parts 6 and 7, remaining new Clauses relating to and Eccles South and her colleagues will accept that it is Part 7, remaining new Schedules appropriate to insert a couple of knives into our proceedings relating to Part 7, amendments to so that we can get on to talk about planning and, in due Clauses 157 to 166, amendments to Schedules 19 and 20, amendments course, housing. It would be remiss if we did not secure to Clauses 167 to 169, amendments that outcome. to Schedule 21, amendments to Clauses 170 to 193, amendments No doubt we will not agree on everything, and there to Schedule 22, amendments to may be cause for Divisions, but, as in Committee, Clauses 194 and 195, amendments to constructive suggestions will have the opportunity to be Schedule 23 and amendments to Clauses 196 to 200. reflected on and reflected in the Bill’s further progress in another place. 197 Localism Bill (Programme) (No. 2) 17 MAY 2011 198

5.53 pm Localism Bill Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): I [1ST ALLOCATED DAY] will be even more brief. As the Minister suggests, on Report the Government have tabled 234 new clauses Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill and amendments, which is more than the number of Committee. clauses in the original Bill, so we have a lot to discuss. I [Relevant documents: The Second Report from the would not say that we have two days. We have ended up Communities and Local Government Committee, Abolition with some concerns about the programming of these of Regional Spatial Strategies: a planning vacuum?, HC 517; debates, but it would be more appropriate if we discussed Written evidence submitted to the Communities and Local them with the usual channels. Government Committee on the General Power of Competence, HC 931; The Third Report from the Environmental Audit Committee, Sustainable Development in the Localism Bill, HC 799.] 5.53 pm New Clause 12 Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC): Looking at the proposed timetable, I note that LIMITS ON POWER UNDER SECTION 5(1) parts 4 and 5 alone include 14 new clauses as well as ‘(1) The Secretary of State may not make provision under Government and Opposition amendments, and there is section 5(1) unless the Secretary of State considers that the no way in which considered debate can be held on all of conditions in subsection (2), where relevant, are satisfied in them. As someone putting forward his own new clause, relation to that provision. which is of huge importance to Wales, I am disappointed (2) Those conditions are that— that insufficient time has been allocated on Report, and (a) the effect of the provision is proportionate to the policy I call for extra time to ensure a considered debate about objective intended to be secured by the provision; those vital issues. (b) the provision, taken as a whole, strikes a fair balance between the public interest and the interests of any Question put and agreed to. person adversely affected by it; (c) the provision does not remove any necessary protection; (d) the provision does not prevent any person from continuing to exercise any right or freedom which that person might reasonably expect to continue to exercise; (e) the provision is not of constitutional significance. (3) An order under section 5(1) may not make provision for the delegation or transfer of any function of legislating. (4) For the purposes of subsection (3) a “function of legislating” is a function of legislating by order, rules, regulations or other subordinate instrument. (5) An order under section 5(1) may not make provision to abolish or vary any tax.’.—(Andrew Stunell.) Brought up, and read the First time.

5.54 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 8—Sunday trading hours - power to amend or repeal— ‘Notwithstanding any existing statutory provisions, a local authority may, for its area, impose its own regulations on Sunday opening hours for retail outlets that currently have a restriction in place to either— (a) reduce the existing hours, or (b) extend the existing hours.’. New clause 10—Recall elections— ‘(1) If 25% or more of the registered voters in the constituency of an elected local government member sign a relevant recall petition then a recall election must be held on the same date as the next election (whether or not a local election) to be held in the constituency of the elected government member, provided that that election is not less than 12 weeks after the threshold has been reached. (2) In order for a recall petition to be relevant the appropriate returning officer must be satisfied that— 199 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 200

(a) the petition has been submitted in accordance with the New clause 28—Local authority contractor pay policy rules provided for in subsection (3) and; statements— (b) there is evidence contained in the petition that the ‘(1) The Secretary of State must by regulations made by elected local government member has— statutory instrument require relevant authorities to prepare a pay (i) acted in a way which is financially dishonest or policy statement for the highest paid staff and the lower paid disreputable, staff of local authority contractors within six months of this Act (ii) intentionally misled the body to which he or she coming into force. was elected, (2) In this section— (iii) broken any promises made by him or her in an (a) “local authority contractors” means a company or election address, organisation (a “contractor”) that supplies services (iv) behaved in a way that is likely to bring his or her or executes works for the relevant authorities to the office into disrepute, or value of more than £250,000 in any financial year; (v) lost the confidence of his or her electorate. (b) “lower paid staff” means— (3) The Secretary of State must lay regulations before (i) the lowest paid member of staff, and Parliament within six months of the passing of this Act setting (ii) any member of staff paid less than 20 per cent. out— above the amount paid to the lowest paid member of staff, (a) how notice of intent to petition for recall is to be given, (c) “highest paid staff” means the highest paid member of (b) how “registered voters” are to be defined for different staff by remuneration, which shall include payments types of constituency, made by the contractor to the member of staff in (c) the definition of “appropriate returning officer”, connection with that staff’s employment, any relevant (d) the ways in which registered voters can sign a recall bonuses and benefits in kind.’. petition, Amendment 37, page 4, line 22, clause 5, at end (e) the ways in which signatures to such petitions will be insert— verified, ‘(6A) The power under subsection (1) or (2) may not be (f) entitlement to vote in, and the conduct of, the recall exercised to amend, repeal, revoke or disapply— election, (a) this Part of this Act, (g) rules on any other related matters as considered (b) Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 section 7 or necessary by the Secretary of State, and section 13, (h) consequential, saving, transitory or transitional provision (c) Small Holdings and Allotments Act 1908 section 23, (including amendments to existing statutory provision, (d) Children Act 1989 Part 3 and Schedule 2, whenever passed or made). (e) Childcare Act 2006, Parts 1 and 2, (4) The Secretary of State must issue guidance to returning (f) Child Poverty Act 2010 Part 2, officers on how to make assessments under subsection (2)(b) (g) Equality Act 2010, section 88, within six months of the passing of this Act. (h) Equality Act 2010, section 149, (5) The question that is to appear on the ballot papers in a (i) Care Standards Act 2000, recall election is “Should [name of elected local government member] be recalled from [name of body or office]?”. (j) Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 section 21, (6) If at a recall election more votes are cast in favour of the answer “Yes” than in favour of the answer “No”, then— (k) Transport Act 2000 section 145A, (l) Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled (a) if the elected representative has been elected under a Persons) (England) Regulations 2000, first past the post or alternative vote electoral system, he or she is recalled and a by-election must be held (m) Disabled Persons (Badges for Motor Vehicles) (England) within three months in which the recalled candidate (Amendment) Regulations 2007, may stand, or (n) Disabled Persons (Badges for Motor Vehicles) (England) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2007, (b) if the elected representative has been elected under a system of proportional representation, the next (o) Carers and Disabled Children Act 2000, candidate on the relevant party list shall take the seat. (p) Carers (Recognition and Services) Act 1995, (7) In this section “elected local government member” means (q) Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and any person elected to the Greater London Authority, a county Representation) Act 1986, council in England, district council, or London borough council, (r) Mental Health Act 1983 Part 8, including an elected mayor of the council; and the Mayor of (s) Community Care, Services for Carers and Children London. Services (Direct Payments) England Regulations (8) Regulations under this section may not be made unless a 2009, draft of the statutory instrument containing the regulations has (t) Public Health Act 1875, been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of (u) Public Health Act 1936, Parliament. (v) Commons Act 2006, (9) Subsections (1) and (2) come into force six months after the (w) Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, day on which the regulations under subsection (3) are made.’. (x) Natural Environment and Rural Communities New clause 27—Low pay policy statements— Act 2006 section 40, ‘(1) The Secretary of State must by regulations made by (y) Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 section 25 or statutory instrument require relevant authorities to prepare a pay section 28E, policy statement for lower paid staff within six months of this (z) Environment Act 1995 Part 4, Act coming into force. (z1) Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976, (2) In this section “lower paid staff” means— (z2) Prevention of Damage by Pests Act 1949, (a) the lowest paid member of staff, and (z3) Hedgerow Regulations 1997, (b) any member of staff paid less than 20 per cent. above (z4) Planning (Listed Building and Conservation Areas) the amount paid to the lowest paid member of staff.’. Act 1990 section 66 or section 72, 201 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 202

(z5) Ancient Monument and Archaeological Areas Amendment 367, page 16, line 31, clause 17, leave out Act 1979 sections 12 and 13, ‘may’ and insert ‘must’. (z6) National Parks and Access to the Countryside Amendment 302, page 18, line 28, clause 21, leave out Act 1949, ‘senior’. (z7) Animal Welfare Act 2006 section 30, Amendment 303, page 18, line 30, leave out ‘A senior’ (z8) Zoo Licensing Act 1981, and insert ‘Subject to subsection (2)(b), a,’. (z9) Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 Part 6, Amendment 304, page 18, line 31, leave out ‘its chief (z10) Flood and Water Management Act 2010 Schedule 3, officers’ and insert— (z11) Working Time Regulations 1998 Regulation 28, ‘(a) its chief officers and its lower paid staff; and (z12) Education Act 1996 section 15ZA, (b) the chief officers and the lower paid staff for each (z13) Food Safety Act 1990 Parts 1, 2 and 3, employer of indirectly employed staff, subject to (z14) Freedom of Information Act 2000, paragraph (c); (z15) Housing Grants, Construction and Regeneration (c) nothing in this Chapter shall be taken as requiring the Act 1996 section 1, publication of a pay policy statement where: (z16) Housing Act 1996 Part 7, (i) it relates to indirectly employed staff; and (z17) Homelessness Act 2002, (ii) the aggregate value of all funding received by the indirect employer of the staff from a relevant (z18) Housing Act 2004 Part 2, authority does not exceed £250,00 in any financial (z19) Local Government Act 1972 Part VA, section 99 or year.’. section 148, Amendment 305, page 18, line 41, at end insert (z20) Local Government Act 2000 Part 3 section 21 or ‘and the lower paid staff section 37, (h) the total level of remuneration of the highest paid (z21) Children and Young Persons Act 1969 Part 1, or chief officer (A); (z22) Adoption and Children Act 2002.’. (i) the total level of remuneration of the lowest paid Government amendments 44 to 50. member of staff (B); Amendment 36, page 5, line 32, clause 7, at end (j) the total number of staff being paid the amount set out insert— in paragraph (3)(i); ‘subject to the exceptions specified in section 5 (6A)’. (k) the number of staff paid less than 10 per cent. above Government amendments 51 to 98. the amount set out in paragraph (3)(i); Amendment 42, page 193, line 27, schedule 2, leave (l) the number of staff paid less than 20 per cent. above the amount set out in paragraph (3)(i); out from beginning to end of line 39 on page 195. (m) the highest paid chief officer’s remuneration as a Amendment 43, page 198, leave out lines 4 to 25. multiple of the lowest paid member of staff’s Amendment 2, page 199, leave out lines 30 to 43 and remuneration using the formulation A/B; insert— (n) the pay multiple to be maintained as set out in ‘The elected mayor is to be returned under the simple majority paragraph (3)(m).’. system.’. Amendment 306, page 19, line 1, leave out ‘senior’. Amendment 3, page 200, line 6, leave out from ‘one’ Amendment 307, page 19, line 3, at end insert ‘and to second ‘vote’ in line 7. lower paid staff’. Amendment 38, page 205, leave out lines 29 to 31. Amendment 308, page 19, line 5, leave out ‘senior’. Amendment 1, page 208, line 48, leave out ‘5’ and Amendment 309, page 19, line 11, leave out ‘senior’. insert ‘2.5’. Amendment 310, page 19, line 13, leave out ‘senior’. Amendment 39, page 209, leave out lines 3 to 25. Amendment 311, page 19, line 16, at end insert— Amendment 40, page 209, leave out lines 26 to 47. ‘(6) Where any of the posts to be included in the pay policy Amendment 41, page 211, line 18, leave out from statement are not full-time, the information given in the pay beginning to end of line 31 on page 213. policy statement must be expressed as a full-time equivalent.’. Amendment 15, page 213, line 40, at end insert— Amendment 312, page 19, line 29, clause 24, at end ‘9OZA Elected Mayors and Reduction of Councillors insert— (1) Where a local authority has an elected mayor, that local ‘or its lower paid staff.’. authority must reduce within four years of the election of the Amendment 313, page 19, line 30, leave out ‘senior’. Mayor the number of local councillors to one-third of pre-mayoral Amendment 373, page 19, line 39, leave out ‘senior’. levels. Amendment 314, page 20, line 35, clause 26, at end (2) These provisions will apply retrospectively to local authorities which already have an elected mayor and the reduction in councillors insert— must take place within four years of this legislation taking effect.’. ‘(g) any employee of the relevant authority whose Amendment 4, page 215, leave out line 17. remuneration exceeds that of any chief officer as defined in this section.’. Amendment 5, page 215, leave out lines 34 and 35. Amendment 315, page 20, line 35, at end insert— Government amendments 99 to 129. ‘(2A) In this Chapter “lower paid staff’, means each of the Amendment 365, page 15, line 44, clause 16, leave out following— ‘may’ and insert ‘must’. (a) the lowest paid member of staff, Amendment 366, page 16, line 4, leave out paragraph (c). (b) staff paid less than 20 per cent. above the amount paid Government amendments 130 and 131. to the lowest paid member of staff. 203 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 204

(2B) In this Chapter “staff” means any staff whether directly Government amendments 136 to 138. or indirectly employed by a relevant authority and who are not chief officers. Amendment 356, page 24, line 23, leave out clause 33. (2C) In this Chapter “indirectly employed” means staff Government amendments 139 and 140. employed other than by a relevant authority to undertake work Amendment 357, page 24, line 38, leave out clause 34. for a relevant authority and which is funded by that authority. Any reference to indirect employment, indirect employer or Government amendments 141 to 143, 183, 211, 216 indirectly employed staff, shall be construed accordingly. and 217. (2D) In this Chapter the provisions of section 231 (associated Government new clause 22—Pre-commencement employers) of the Employment Rights Act 1996 shall apply to consultation. indirect employment arrangements.’. Government amendment 266. Amendment 316, page 20, line 36, after ‘officer’, insert— Andrew Stunell: New clause 12 refines one of the ‘, or lowest paid member of staff’. central elements of the Bill—the general power of Amendment 317, page 20, line 38, after ‘officer’s’, competence. I shall say more about that shortly and insert— also address the other new clauses and amendments in ‘, or lowest paid member of staff’s’. this excessively long group. Amendment 318, page 20, line 40, after ‘officer’, The Government are committed to the radical insert— decentralisation of power and control from Whitehall ‘, or lowest paid member of staff’. and Westminster to local government, local communities Amendment 319, page 20, line 41, after ‘officer’, and individuals. We are pushing power back down to insert— the lowest possible level, and this Bill is about shaking ‘or lowest paid member of staff’. up the balance of power and revitalising democracy. It will give power to councils, communities, voluntary Amendment 320, page 20, line 43, after ‘officer’, groups and the people, giving local authorities the insert— power to take decisions that are right for their areas, ‘or lowest paid member of staff’. and giving to local people the power to influence those Amendment 283, page 20, line 44, leave out ‘is’ and decisions. insert— This Government trust local authorities to know ‘or lowest paid member of staff is’. what is best for their areas, we trust local councillors to Amendment 284, page 20, line 45, after ‘officer’s’, know what they are doing and we are freeing up local insert— government from the shackles of central Government. ‘or lowest paid member of staff’s’. The Localism Bill does just what it says on the label. Amendment 285, page 21, line 1, after ‘officer’s’, insert— Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I welcome the Minister’s ‘or lowest paid member of staff’s’. opening remarks and wonder whether he is, therefore, Amendment 286, page 21, line 4, after ‘officer’, insert— just about to get on to the fact that he supports my new ‘or lowest paid member of staff’. clause 8, which would give local authorities the opportunity to vary Sunday trading laws. If what he says is true and Amendment 287, page 21, line 5, after ‘officer’, insert— he wants to pass all such decisions down to the lowest ‘or lowest paid member of staff’. possible level, that is surely what he is about to announce. Amendment 288, page 21, line 7, after ‘officer’, insert— ‘or lowest paid member of staff’. Andrew Stunell: I look forward to hearing my hon. Amendment 289, page 21, line 8, after ‘officer’, insert— Friend’s case deployed in the debate. ‘or lowest paid member of staff’. I am pleased to report that there is a very broad Amendment 290, page 21, line 11, after ‘officer’, measure of agreement, both inside and outside the insert— House, on the Bill’s principles and, indeed, on many of ‘or lowest paid member of staff’. its specific provisions. Amendment 291, page 21, line 13, after ‘officer’, Local authorities will need to ensure the delivery of insert— more responsive services in a more transparent way, so ‘or lowest paid member of staff’. that their citizens can see what is going on. To do so, Amendment 292, page 21, line 15, after ‘officers’, local councils will need to innovate, to work across insert— traditional boundaries and to ensure clear lines of accountability to their residents. That will be characterised, ‘or lowest paid members of staff’. above all, by the way in which local democracy is Government new clause 13—Further warning notices. renewed. Government new clause 14—Further EU financial Within this very large group of proposed changes, sanction notices. there are a number of new clauses and amendments Amendment 353, page 22, line 1, leave out clause 30. that hon. Members from all parts of the House have Government amendments 132 and 133. tabled, including the one to which my hon. Friend just Amendment 354, page 22, line 28, leave out clause 31. referred. We shall debate them, I will consider carefully the points that hon. Members raise and I hope to have Government amendments 134 and 135. the opportunity to respond to them before the close of Amendment 355, page 23, line 41, leave out clause 32. this debate. 205 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 206

[Andrew Stunell] Andrew Stunell: I take note of that, and I will return to it in two or three minutes’ time, if I may. We had a consensual time on the whole in Committee, The hon. Lady is of course right that there was not and I hope that we can carry that forward in our agreement on everything. I recognise, in particular, that discussion on this group of proposed changes. there were different views on mayors, not only between Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): Government and Opposition Front Benchers but between Not wanting to become non-consensual at this early some of my hon. Friends. I will listen carefully to the stage, I note that the Minister talks about limits on points made today on the mayoral proposals in the Bill, power, and we are still concerned about the Bill’s 142 particularly on such issues as shadow mayors and mayoral extra powers for the Secretary of State. I am puzzled management arrangements. Overall, however, I was why new clause 12 specifies only the powers in clause 5(1), struck by how much we had in common and how much because they are exactly the same as those in clause 5(2). consensus there is about the need to change the power If there is a concern about limiting the powers of the balance in this country in line with the direction that the Secretary of State, it should apply to both subsections. I Bill takes. I hope that the House will recognise that wonder whether the Minister might cover that point. through the range of new clauses and amendments that we have tabled, we have tried genuinely and thoroughly Andrew Stunell: I hope to have satisfied the hon. Lady to address the points that have been raised. by the time I have completed my remarks. If not, I am sure that she will let me know. Let me turn in more detail to new clause 12 and some of the other Government amendments. I appreciate All the Government amendments and new clauses, that I have to strike a difficult balance between using up one way or another, are designed to improve the effectiveness the available time for debate and giving the House a of the Bill, given the range of issues that were raised in reasonable explanation of the measures before it. I will Committee, as the Minister of State said, and given steer as good a course as I can, Mr Deputy Speaker, but outside events, including in particular the passage of I am sure you will let me know if I go astray. New the Welsh referendum, which means that some of the clause 12 and its related amendments impose conditions provisions that were in prospect earlier on can now be on the use of the delegated powers in clause 5(1) in made a reality. To that extent, I hope I can reassure the relation to the general power of competence. Clause 5(1) hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan sets out a power for the Secretary of State to remove or Edwards) that we are not inserting a whole lot of totally to change statutory provisions that prevent or restrict new provisions; we are simply making available to the the use of the general power of competence. We have Welsh Executive the same powers that are being made termed this the barrier-buster power. available in England. I hope he finds that somewhat reassuring. Amendment 64 is the equivalent provision for the We have, where appropriate, taken into account feedback general power of competence for fire and rescue authorities from the consultations that have been carried out on in England and Wales. The amendment imposes conditions elements of the Bill and representations that we have on the use of the delegated powers in new section 5C(1) received from a wide range of organisations that have of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004, which is been interested in—and, in some cases, very excited inserted by clause 8. New section 5C(1) sets out a power about—the prospect of the Bill coming into force. for the appropriate national authority—Welsh Ministers for the devolved matters relating to Wales, but otherwise 6pm the Secretary of State—to remove or to change statutory There was a broad consensus about the general power provisions that prevent or restrict the use of the general of competence, with the concerns that were expressed power for fire and rescue authorities. being about the scope of the powers and the role of Concerns were expressed about the scope of the the Secretary of State. New clause 12 and the related delegated power at clause 5(1)—the barrier buster—and amendments address those points. Equally, there were the equivalent powers in relation to fire and rescue debates and discussions about the position of fire and authorities. The Government reflected on those concerns rescue authorities, because they will have similar powers. and decided to introduce specific preconditions as to We have reflected on the concerns raised in Committee the use of the barrier-buster power and the limitations and the feedback that we received from industry partners, on its scope. These include a proportionality test and a and we have tabled an amendment on that point. Several requirement to achieve a fair balance between the public amendments make the fire and rescue authority powers interest and the interests of any person adversely affected applicable in Wales. by an order. In addition to the current requirements There was much agreement in the Committee’s debate that the Secretary of State has to satisfy—in particular, on the Standards Board for England, and we listened that he must think that a provision prevents or restricts carefully and have tabled an amendment. On European the use of the general power and must consult on his Union fines, there was a lot of discussion about the proposals—subsection (1) now provides that he must practicalities, but we reached a position whereby people also consider the conditions set out in subsection (2), in agreed that the intentions behind our proposals on EU relation to the general power, and in section 5C(1) infractions were broadly reasonable—I think those were in relation to the fire provision to have been satisfied in the words of the right hon. Member for Greenwich and relation to the proposals. Woolwich (Mr Raynsford)—and the debate was more The new conditions that the clause introduces ensure about how this would work in practice. that the use of the provision is proportionate to the Barbara Keeley: This is the point where we have to policy objective intended, that there is a fair balance become non-consensual, because Labour Members are between the public interest and the interests of any still totally opposed to EU fines, and amendments have person adversely affected, that there is no removal of been tabled on that. any necessary protection, that no person will be prevented 207 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 208 from continuing to exercise any right or freedom that Amendment 36 would amend the definition of a statutory they might reasonably expect to exercise, and that any provision by excluding from that definition a long list of provision is not of constitutional significance. In the statutes, which is set out in amendment 37. That appears light of Opposition amendments 36 and 37, it is perhaps to have been prompted by various strands of work that worth explaining the effect of these conditions in a little are being undertaken to gather information about local more detail. The first condition is that the effect of the authority duties. This appears to be an attempt to make provision made by the order is proportionate to its a point about front-line duties and the desirability of policy objective. It might be possible to achieve a policy many things that local authorities have to do. Indeed, objective in several different ways, some of which might that is what the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles be more onerous than others and could represent a South (Barbara Keeley) set out on her website as being disproportionate means of securing the desired outcome, her intention. She has fairly given me notice that she so the Secretary of State must satisfy himself that that is “will be pressing ministers in the Commons debate…to be clear not the case and that there is an appropriate relationship about which other vital council services can be protected.” between the policy aim and the means chosen to deliver it. I am happy to tell the hon. Lady that the general The second condition is that the provision made by power is not designed as a means to do away with duties the order, taken as a whole, strikes a fair balance between that Parliament has imposed on local authorities. The the public interest, on the one hand, and the interests general power does not oblige local authorities to act in of the person adversely affected by the order, on the a particular way; it is not the same thing as a duty other. While it may be possible to make an order that imposed by legislation. It will give local authorities real will have an adverse effect on the interests of one or freedom to innovate and act in the interests of their more persons, the Secretary of State must first be communities. The Opposition seem to have developed a satisfied that this is outweighed by beneficial effects in misunderstanding about the scope of clause 5(1). It the public interest. The third condition is that the provides the Secretary of State with powers to remove provision made by the order does not remove any or change statutory provisions that prevent or restrict necessary protection. The notion of necessary protection the use of the general power. That restriction or limitation can extend to economic protection, to health and safety is one that bites on the general power by virtue of protection, and to the protection of civil liberties, the clause 2. The provision is about removing barriers to environment and national heritage. the legal capacity of authorities to act innovatively and The fourth condition is that the provision made by in the best interests of their communities. It is not the order will not prevent any person from continuing aimed at removing duties, nor is it, nor could it be, a to exercise any right or freedom that he might reasonably general-purpose tool to remove any legislation that expect to continue to exercise. To take a leading example, places a burden on local authorities. any right conferred or protected by the European New clause 12 and the connected Government convention on human rights is a right that a person amendments will increase the safeguards on the use of might reasonably expect to keep. The fifth and final the power in clause 5(1). In addition, the Secretary of condition is that the provision made by the order is not State must consult before exercising the power and the constitutionally significant. That condition will allow appropriate parliamentary procedure for scrutinising orders to amend enactments that are themselves any proposed order will be determined by Parliament. constitutionally significant, but only if the amendments are not constitutionally significant. The condition puts Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): Does the it beyond doubt that repeal of legislation such as the Minister accept that clause 5, when taken in conjunction Human Rights Act 1998 or the European Communities with the review that his Department is carrying out into Act 1972 is outside this power. burdensome regulations, might lead to the fear, which In addition to these preconditions, we are seeking to many of my constituents have expressed to me, that amend the Bill so that an order under clause 5(1) or important protections and duties that exist within local section 5C(1) of the 2004 Act may not make provision authorities might disappear? in relation to certain specified limitation. Subsection (3) prevents orders from being used to delegate or transfer Andrew Stunell: The review of statutory duties is a a function of legislating, ensuring that a power to make separate exercise. We have made it clear several times legislation given by Parliament to the Secretary of State that the review of statutory duties will not remove or to another body cannot be transferred to a local duties to provide vital services, and that any changes to authority in the interests of barrier busting. It is right statutory duties that come about as a result of that that those decisions should remain with Parliament. review will subsequently be properly considered and Subsection (4) gives a definition of the function of consulted on. There is no connection between the two legislating—that is, legislating by order, by rules, by processes. regulation or by subordinate instruments. Subsection (5) I urge the House, when the time comes, to support prohibits an order from abolishing or varying any tax. new clause 12 and to reject amendments 36 and 37. It could be argued that removing a tax payable by a I will turn to the other proposals in this group, on local authority would be the removal of a barrier, but it which I hope I can be helpful. When the Committee is not our intention that clause 5(1) should be used in discussed the standards of behaviour required of councillors, that way, so the new clause will prevent an order to vary we discussed whether a local authority should have to tax from being made. publicise that it has a code of conduct. My hon. Friend Taken as a whole, the Government’s proposals will the Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) made a provide the protections that the Opposition seek in powerful speech on the difference between may and amendments 36 and 37, but without the inflexible must. I think that was one of the Committee’s high and heavy-handed mechanism that they propose. spots. Although we consider it right that a local authority 209 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 210

[Andrew Stunell] On EU fines and infractions, I assure the House and the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South that we can choose whether to adopt a code of conduct for its will ensure that any process to pass on an EU fine is fair, members, it must be under a duty to disclose whether it reasonable and proportionate, and we will consult on has done so and whether it has revised or abolished its that. We will pass on a fine only if an authority has code. That duty will ensure that local people are made clearly caused or contributed to causing it, and has the aware when their local authority adopts, changes or power to remedy the situation and can afford to pay. withdraws its code, while leaving it for authorities to That is set out in new clauses 13 and 14 and in Government decide how best to publicise and deal with these matters. amendments 132 to 143. The measure is not about Ministers reclaiming every penny; it is about giving a strong encouragement not to incur fines in the first 6.15 pm place. Local authorities must not be able to assume that Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): if they make a mistake and are in the wrong, the UK The Minister is putting the completely absurd proposition taxpayer will pay their bill for them. to the House that the local authority will be under a It is perhaps worth rehearsing what the process is. EU duty to publicise a code of conduct that it may decide grants are given with conditions attached. At present, not to have. Will he please recognise that that is nonsense? the monitoring, and therefore the risk, falls to central Abolishing the requirement for a code of conduct in Government and their agencies. In the new, devolved every local authority in the country is a serious, retrograde world, that will not always be the case, and with the step, of which the Government should be profoundly transfer of control has to come a transfer of risk. The ashamed. Government do not seek to offload risks that are beyond a local authority’s control—mention has been made of Andrew Stunell: The right hon. Gentleman asked me air pollution targets and so on. a question and the answer is no, I do not accept that at That will all be set out in a policy statement, and I all. When we exchanged words in Committee, I thought can say today that we are making good progress on that this was an outrage, so I am glad that it has been that. I am placing in the Library a paper from the downgraded a little. The important point is that the Greater London authority that has emerged from some decision a local authority takes should be transparent, of our earlier discussions, and I would very much so that the local electorate are aware of it and the local welcome comments on it. We do not necessarily agree authority are accountable to them. We have accepted with every single part of it, but it will provide a strong the point that my hon. Friend the Member for basis for discussion over the next few weeks and we are Bradford East put to the Committee, and Government committed to taking that discussion forward. We have amendments 130 and 131 deal with that. also engaged with the Local Government Association and will continue to do so. Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Does We debated fire and rescue authorities in Committee, the Minister expect to give any guidance under the and our amendments 92 and 93 are a response to the powers in the Bill on what a code of conduct might concerns that the Opposition raised and feedback that contain, or will it simply be left to the local authority to we have received from industry partners. They relate to do its best? authorities’ powers to charge for attending persistently malfunctioning or wrongly installed automatic fire alarms. Andrew Stunell: The Local Government Association It is not in dispute that there should be such a provision has given notice that it sees itself as—I do not want to for non-domestic premises, but the point was made that put words into its mouth and say the custodian—the domestic premises would also be caught by that power, focal point for ensuring that a standard code of practice and probably wrongly so. The amendments simply remove is available. I would have thought that the huge majority that option from fire and rescue authorities. of local authorities will continue to have a published We also discussed pay accountability in Committee, and open code of conduct. Indeed, I should have thought and we undertook to return to the House on the matter that it would reflect adversely on the reputation of a of greater accountability on low pay in light of Will local authority if it chose not to do so. However, the Hutton’s report on fair pay in the public sector. His right place for that decision to be taken is in that local report made some clear recommendations, particularly authority in the light of the views of its electorate; it is about the benefit of setting decisions on senior pay in not something that should be imposed from above. the context of the pay of the rest of a body’s work force. Some of the Opposition’s amendments are in the same Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In Northern Ireland, tone. We are sympathetic to that idea, particularly the we have a stringent code of conduct for local authorities. potential for linking lower pay with senior pay, and we Has the Minister had any discussions with local authorities will consider the best way to take that forward. If in Northern Ireland on using that blueprint for a code necessary, we will return to it in the other place. As we of conduct under these proposals? do so, we will remain mindful of the level of burden placed on authorities and ensure that pay decisions Andrew Stunell: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is remain ones for the appropriate local employer to take aware that the Bill is not applicable in Northern Ireland. and are not dictated by us. Currently, every local authority in England has to have On the other hand, we do not think it would be a statutory code of conduct, so we are not for want of helpful to use the Bill to address the pay of contracting an example. We are saying that there should be flexibility bodies. Councils, the voluntary sector and businesses, about the shape and nature of the code, and that that especially small firms, have called on the Government flexibility should be exercised by the local authority. to remove unnecessary burdens and break down barriers 211 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 212 in local authority contracting, not increase them. That Strangely, we now find ourselves bartering to try to does not prevent a local authority from developing a find out which particular duties might be safe and local policy to ensure that bodies with which it contracts protected from the Secretary of State. The Department’s are open about their rates of pay as a matter of contract. website states that the only duties that might be protected That should remain an issue for local decision making, are those on libraries and child protection, but the not central determination. Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Bromley We have a very large group of amendments, and you and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), ventured in a recent no doubt have a large group of Members wishing to letter to The Guardian that allotments were also safe. It speak, Mr Deputy Speaker. I apologise to the House on is not reasonable to have only vague reassurances on the one hand for taking so long and on the other for three out of all the duties of local councils. We have dealing with some very important topics only in skeleton therefore tabled amendments 36 and 37, and I say to form. I am pleased to move new clause 12, and in due Ministers that they must be clearer about protecting the time I will wish to move the other Government new vital duties of local councils—duties that legislation has clauses and amendments in the group. I undertake to created, which provide important protections and services listen carefully to Members’ contributions as the debate on which people rely—from the power that the Secretary proceeds. of State wants to “amend, repeal, revoke or disapply” any statutory provision. Barbara Keeley: I am glad that Ministers are still so Members should make no mistake about it: there are interested in my website—it makes it worth all the effort real concerns about that power. Professor Luke Clements of keeping it up to date. is a leading expert on community care law, and in an I shall speak first to amendments 36 and 37, which article about the statutory provisions that could be are related to new clause 12. They are intended to swept away by the new power, he stated: protect a list of the most important duties of local “The list includes large swathes of the Mental Health Act 1983, councils from the powers that the Secretary of State the Children Act 1989 as well as virtually every community care wants to take in clause 5(1) and (2). I should remind the and carers statute. The suggestion that protecting children or frail Minister that he did not answer my question about new elderly people from abuse could be…‘burdensome’ is further evidence of the coalition government’s disdain for the very notion clause 12 not applying to clause 5(2). I see that Ministers of a welfare state.” are looking at the Box and seeing if they can find some He said of the Government’s approach: inspiration over there. “It is a contempt that has already created a largely lawless As I said on Second Reading, the Secretary of State’s regime where fundamental rights, such as the right to a face-to-face power under clause 5(1) and (2) is chilling, because it assessment” would allow him to and “amend, repeal, revoke or disapply” “the right to have assessed needs met regardless of resources…are openly flouted. It is a regime that fuels the daily news stories of any statutory provision. The Government can keep disabled, elderly and ill people being failed by public bodies, and calling that barrier-busting, but it will still end up being experiencing neglect and extreme indignity. In the face of this, the the same swingeing power. The difficulty for those who response of the coalition government is not to strengthen the law, are opposed to it is that it would leave local councils and but to suggest that it be trashed.” the people who use their services at the mercy of the Andrew Stunell: I have really been disappointed by ideology of the current Government and Secretary of the hon. Lady’s remarks, which are a travesty of what is State. I know from the debates that we had in Committee in prospect. I spent perhaps a little too long in my that some of the Ministers were opposed to giving speech explaining precisely what new clause 12 will do Secretaries of State such a level of power in previous and making it absolutely clear what it will not do. I am local government Bills, and spoke against it. Perhaps sorry to say that she is making it up, which is not good. they would like to think about why they have had such a change of heart. Incidentally, I can answer the hon. Lady’s question about clause 5(2)—as she suggested, inspiration has Since our debates on the Bill started, the Department arrived. It relates only to overlapping powers, so by has launched its review of the statutory duties of local definition it will not change local authority powers or councils. That means that the nature of the power in duties because it will take away only one of the overlapping question, and how it will be used to sweep away what powers. councils are starting to see as burdens, is now much more under the spotlight. The Government’s focus on 6.30 pm duties as “burdens” has caused alarm and great concern to people who rely on the services of their local council. Barbara Keeley: I am afraid that I am not convinced Their concern about the extent of the Secretary of by that, and I am not making this up. I know Professor State’s powers to sweep away councils’ duties is greater Clements, because he helped to draft much of the carers because of the language that the Government are using legislation that went through the House as private Members’ to describe the vital duties on which people depend. In Bills. He, among others, is very concerned. the review, councils and the public were asked to specify To respond to the Minister’s point, part of the difficulty the bureaucratic burdens that they wished to throw is that the conditions set out in Government new away. In fact, Ministers have allowed all the duties of clause 12(2) are subjective. It is another lawyers’ charter, councils to be listed, and voted on, as “burdens”, “red because they will have to settle the question of whether tape” or “bureaucratic barriers”. In using that language, or not legislation fits those conditions. The key point is they do not appear to have considered the importance that all the decisions lie completely within the judgment of many of the statutory duties of local councils. of the Secretary of State. That is what is making people 213 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 214

[Barbara Keeley] would agree that a great deal of that talk has been stoked by the Secretary of State for Communities and uncomfortable. There is great concern about sweeping Local Government. However, he has tended not to away the laws, rights and protections for those who show the same concern for the lowest paid staff, or for need care. Yesterday in the Palace, I attended a gathering levels of pay among consultants and contractors, who of five all-party groups on disability—I attended as the provide £38 billion-worth of goods and services to local chair of the all-party group on social care. Two questions government, which is paid for out of the public purse. were asked of the Bill and the review, and there was a Our proposals aim to introduce pay transparency chorus of concern in the room. Ministers can attack me much more fully than the Government plan. We want to if they want to, but I am representing concern from shine a light on top pay and low pay, and I welcome the outside the House. Minister’s sympathy for that. However, the Opposition Citizens Advice has told MPs that it is worried about also want to develop the recommendations in the Hutton the broad-ranging powers that clause 5 confers on the review on pay. Ministers said that they would reflect on Secretary of State. It is worried that the power will be that review, and I hope they take that seriously. All hon. used to revoke or repeal a number of statutory provisions, Members agree that there has been some excessive such as the public sector equalities duty. growth in senior roles in the public sector, but there are also myths about public sector pay.The Local Government Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): The Prime Association estimates that of 1.7 million employees in Minister says that he wants power to be given back to mainstream local government jobs, 60% earn less than local people. Does my hon. Friend agree that giving the £18,000 a year. According to the LGA, more than 400,000 Secretary of State 126 new powers contradicts that? council workers earn less than the living wage, including more than 250,000 who earn less than £6.50 an hour. Barbara Keeley: That is a contradiction. In fact, the Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): My hon. Friend 126 or 142 new powers—we can count them in different makes a strong point. As a former Unison trade union ways—are of great concern. officer, I know that a high proportion of those low-paid The list of legislation that we propose in amendment 37 workers—a big majority—are women. for protection from those new powers may not be Barbara Keeley: Indeed, a quarter of those who perfect—I am sure people can find fault with it—but it experience in-work poverty are employed by the public is vital to get a clear steer from Ministers that they do sector. In addition, the average public sector pension, at not intend to continue to see important council duties £4,200, is very far from the gold-plated pension that as burdens. Does the Secretary of State agree that the people talk about. Our proposals would introduce greater Homelessness Act 2002, which is on our proposed list, transparency and help the objective of curbing excessive creates a vital duty for councils to have a strategy for pay at the top of the scale, because it will be harder for a tackling homelessness, or does he agree with Hammersmith highly paid council chief executive to defend his or her and Fulham council, which has asked for that duty to pay if the public can see what that council pays its be scrapped? Hammersmith and Fulham also wants to lowest-paid members of staff. scrap the rough sleeper strategy, and wants not to assess The Opposition believe that as well as an approach the sufficiency of locally available child care. It wants on top and low pay, we need a fair and consistent no requirements on its youth service. Do Ministers approach to transparency in local authority pay. As my believe that Hammersmith and Fulham should be able hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington to shed those duties? That is the key question. (Jack Dromey) said in Committee, Will Hutton’s report Councils such as Hammersmith and Fulham want to puts paid to the myths. Public sector employees earn shake off what they view as burdensome duties, but the only £1 of every £100 earned by the top 1%, or to put it Opposition’s view is that those council services are vital another way, out of every £100 that is earned by the top and should be protected. A list of what is vital and to be 1%, only £1 is earned in the public sector. Therefore, the protected is the key to that. In Committee, the Minister perception that the public sector is awash with fat cats is said: a myth, and it does not help when DCLG Ministers “Every local authority will retain duties enshrined in other spend their time building that myth as a way of dealing legislation to provide services and not to charge for them, if with top pay. charging is not allowed at present.”––[Official Report, Localism The Hutton report confirms that increases in executive Public Bill Committee, 1 February 2011; c. 184.] pay have been a private sector phenomenon. That is However, Hammersmith and Fulham wants not to have why tackling excess pay should happen not just in the plans for homeless people, and Wandsworth council public sector. We should also focus on pay in the private plans to charge children £2.50 to use a playground. sector when money is paid from the public purse—that That is where we are. It is time for Ministers to end the is the test. Staff on outsourced local government contracts uncertainty that they have generated with their sloppy tend to be concentrated in low-wage sectors such as plans for revising legislation on council duties. It is time cleaning, catering, low-skilled manual work and care for them to reintroduce certainty, so that people know work. One key question for hon. Members is this: do we that councils must provide land for allotments and an want cleaners, care workers and teaching assistants to efficient library service, assess carers’ needs, and have earn a living wage? The Opposition believe that they plans for tackling homelessness. should earn such a wage. We therefore hope that Ministers I welcome the Minister’s partial sympathy on proposed and Government Members agree that the implementation new clauses 27 and 28 and the proposed amendments of a senior pay policy in local government would be a on pay transparency and very much look forward to double standard if the same logic is not applied to developments. Much has been said in recent months on contractors, not least because the local government top pay in local government. I am sure that Ministers procurement market is valued at £38 billion. 215 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 216

Will Hutton said in his report that would mean that the person who lost the election this “it is important that the Fair Pay Code and as far as possible the May and will lose it again next May will be imposed on other recommendations of this Review are extended into the the people of Birmingham, irrespective of how they public services industry.” vote. Surely there is nothing democratic about that. I hope that Ministers—I welcome the Secretary of State to the Chamber—support Hutton’s proposals to extend Barbara Keeley: No, there is absolutely not. I thank pay transparency to those private sector contractors my hon. Friend for making that point. who are paid out of the public purse. Implementation Hon. Members will be interested to know the extent of our proposals would help to ensure that executive to which there is all-party opposition to these proposals pay does not spiral up, that low pay is challenged, and in Bradford. The Conservative group leader on Bradford that people can be confident that their local council is council also argued against the imposition of a shadow spending their money fairly and wisely. mayor in that city. In the same article, Councillor Anne Finally, I support amendments 39 to 41, which are in Hawkesworth said: my name and those of my hon. Friends the Members “My colleagues and I are not supportive of elected mayors… for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) and for We do not think that the proposals are suited to the needs of…Bradford.” Birmingham, Erdington. The proposals would remove the power of the Secretary of State, who has just joined Last week, the same issue was reported on again, when us in the Chamber, to direct or order the imposition of the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) said: shadow mayors. That is one of the most controversial “My view is that it should be for the councils to decide if they measures in the Bill, and it represents the Government want to go down the referendum route. The referendum shouldn’t be imposed.” at their most centralising. The Government want to order a local authority to cease its existing form of The Opposition agree. Shadow mayors and referendums governance and begin to operate a mayor and cabinet on having a mayor should not be imposed. In Bradford executive. Ministers spent months denying that they at least, it seems, there is Labour, Liberal Democrat and intended to try to impose shadow mayors. Conservative opposition to the Government’s proposals. However, there has also been opposition in other councils, I remind the Secretary of State that he gave the following including Leeds city council. answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) on 21 October 2010: Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): While “She seems to be suggesting that we would somehow impose my hon. Friend is running through a list of authorities, mayors on those 12 cities, but of course we will not-that is will she also refer to Sheffield—now a Labour-controlled completely out of the question. The proposals will be subject to authority, of course? There has been cross-party agreement referendums. Once we know the views of the people in those between Labour and Liberal Democrats, and all are 12 cities, we will move on to the election of a mayor if people vote for that.”—[Official Report, 21 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 1117.] opposed to any mayoral system at all, and certainly opposed to shadow mayors. I am sure that were there [Interruption.] I am getting some confusing signals any Conservative councillors in Sheffield—which there from Government Members. On the same day, to be are not—they would be joining in the opposition as clear about the Secretary of State’s intentions, my hon. well. Is it not a strange system in which a mayor’s Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) legitimacy comes from being elected by the public, but a asked him again whether it was his intention to turn shadow mayor’s legitimacy comes from being the council leaders into mayors before holding a referendum. representative of most councillors on a council? In He stood at the Dispatch Box and referred my hon. Sheffield, that majority of councillors are opposed to Friend back to the earlier question: the proposals. “I ruled out the possibility that we would be imposing mayors. This will be subject to a referendum.”—[Official Report, 21 October Barbara Keeley: Absolutely. I was not going to go 2010; Vol. 516, c. 1125.] through a complete list, but I welcome hearing about He was absolutely clear. However, the proposal in the what has happened in Sheffield. Bill directly contradicts what the Secretary of State said It seems that Yorkshire is turning against these proposals on that occasion and on other occasions. It is further en masse, and there has been opposition in other councils— proof of a Government who say one thing and do for example, in Leeds city council. The Yorkshire Post another, and it raises further questions about whether quoted its leader, Councillor Keith Wakefield, as saying what they say can be trusted at all. that these proposals are Since the debate began on the proposal to impose “not acceptable in today’s democracy… If people decide they mayors on 12 of our largest cities, opposition has want an elected mayor that’s what they should have, but do it bubbled up and developed all over the place. Indeed, the following a vote… I think the idea of a referendum is OK where day after the Localism Bill was announced, the leader people have an opportunity to say yea or nay. What’s not right is of Bradford council, Councillor Ian Greenwood, told putting you in a position where there’s been no vote.” the Bradford Telegraph and Argus newspaper that he I understand that he would turn down the position was uncomfortable with being given an office to which whatever happens. he had not been elected. In that article, he said: I hope that the hon. Member for Bradford East and “My view is this is not the right thing for Bradford… I am his colleagues will support our amendment 41, and vote uncomfortable about being given an office I wasn’t elected to. I against the imposition of shadow mayors and referendums don’t feel it’s the right thing to do. Leadership is not about on their local councils. dictating, it’s about taking people with you”. Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con) rose— Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend accept that we need a clear line on this? Barbara Keeley: I am about to conclude, so as to leave The Secretary of State’s apparent proposal for Birmingham time for other Members to speak. 217 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 218

[Barbara Keeley] me, “The people of this country did not say no; they said never.” I accept that judgment, but I believe there I regret that a new group of amendments on scrutiny has to be consistency. I support the amendment on the was not selected for debate tonight. It was debated in basis that we should have a consistent approach to our Committee, and I hope that it can be taken forward to elections and that elected mayors should therefore be the other place. I would like to underline again and elected under first past the post. I genuinely hope that again that we are still opposed to EU fines. the House will agree with what the people said two weeks ago and support the amendment. 6.45 pm Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I want to address John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): I am grateful for the new clauses 13 and 14 on EU fines. I believe that opportunity to speak on Report on this important Bill. ministerial advice stated that individual fines to local I appreciate that there are a lot of amendments, however, authorities would be appropriate where there was a and that many hon. Members wish to speak, so I will be direct causal link, and where councils were guilty of as succinct as possible. I would like to refer to amendments action or inaction. One example is waste, on which I 2 and 3. They are small but significant amendments that would like to address two key issues: EU directives on deal with the election of elected mayors. Because of recycling and landfill taxes. their significance, I hope to press them to a vote tonight, unless Ministers see their merits. The Local Government Association briefing is dismissive of the Government’s proposals. It states: I fully subscribe to the localism agenda. I believe that “Moves to allow Ministers to force English councils to pay we have become an over-centralised state, with too parts of fines imposed on the UK government by the EU are much power at the centre, whether with Ministers or unfair, unworkable, dangerous and unconstitutional. This is an civil servants. The Bill will start to turn the tanker unprecedented power for Ministers to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny around. I accept that progress will be slow, but it will and will inevitably lead to legal battles as Government tries to take the agenda in the right direction. On Second Reading, apportion “blame” for EU fines.” I said that a cultural change was required first in The LGA urges that the policy be scrapped, and continues: Whitehall, with less interference and prescription from “In effect it means a Minister may simultaneously be prosecutor, the centre, and, secondly, in the town hall, with people judge, jury, and co-defendant, when Ministers themselves may there taking more responsibility. However, localism has actually be responsible for fines being levied. This is neither three strands: the division of power; tax-raising powers; impartial nor localist.” and governance. I would like to concentrate on governance, There are reasons why the Government are responsible particularly elected mayors. for such fines perhaps being levied, but I want to I am a strong supporter of the concept of elected address the confusion that seems to exist in Government. mayors. That is the direction in which we should be The Minister for the natural environment—the Under- going. They are open, transparent and accountable, and Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural I also believe that they will help to revive local government. Affairs—said in Committee in March that local authorities I thought that there was broad cross-party support for would not face what I describe as “bin taxes”, which are them, because they were introduced by a Labour charges on local authorities and their residents for not Government in 2000, and because, obviously, the coalition reaching the EU’s 50% threshold. I asked him: Government are retaining the concept and looking to “I want to press the Minister on EU fines for England and introduce 11 new mayors in due course. Wales on waste collection. Does he support the individual fining of authorities that do kerbside collection and that are struggling Kelvin Hopkins: I accept that elected mayors were a to reach 50%, as suggested by the Secretary of State for Communities Labour concept, although I was not in favour of them. and Local Government?” It is noticeable that across the country many local The Minister replied: authorities have rejected the idea, and that many of “I can tell the Committee that local authorities will not be those who voted for them now regret doing so. fined individually for not achieving 50%. I can give that assurance…If we are failing, it will be lamentable”.—[Official Report, Fourth John Stevenson: I accept that they are not universally Delegated Legislation Committee, 8 March 2011; c. 9-10.] supported by all parties, but I believe that there is broad There seems to be a great deal of confusion between the support. The hon. Gentleman raises a separate point, Department for Communities and Local Government, though, because there are several reasons why elected and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural mayors have not caught on. However, I want to concentrate Affairs on this issue. To be honest, I would like the on my amendment 2 about their actual election. proposal scrapped, but we at least need some clarity on At present, mayors are elected under the supplementary how to reach 50% recycling rates and avoid EU fines. vote system, which is retained in the Bill. Effectively it is The Bill does nothing to protect my constituents, a form of the alternative vote. My amendment 2 would particularly given that councils in east Lancashire have change that so that future elections are done under first been hit extremely hard by DCLG cuts. Residents in my past the post. That would provide a consistent approach local authority, which was Conservative until last Thursday to elections. Varying the voting system creates confusion night—thankfully we now have a Labour authority—had and a lack of certainty for the average voter. Two weeks achieved a 40% recycling rate, or just under. In effect, ago, this country went to the polling booth for a referendum we are talking about a bin tax by any other name, and it on whether we wanted AV or first past the post. Had is unfair. The message to the Minister this evening is the voters supported AV, I would have withdrawn that it is not the fault of the residents of Lancashire. this amendment. I would have accepted the will of the The county council’s waste private finance initiative people. In fact, there was an overwhelming and emphatic schemes would have resulted in a 90% recycling rate, but vote for first past the post. As one hon. Member said to they were scrapped a few months ago. Up until a few 219 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 220 months ago we had a strategy that would have enabled Graham Jones: I accept what the Minister has said on us to avoid EU fines, and we are talking about some of the record, which he made absolutely clear. The new the most deprived communities in this country. clause has no value, but I would say— There are also issues around recycling centres. If the Government will not invest in recycling centres, or if the Andrew Stunell rose— spread of recycling centres across the country is Graham Jones: No. disproportionate, that is not fair either, but that is a Government policy. It is not an EU policy; it is a policy The Minister of State had the opportunity before to that the Government will be answerable for. The LGA is say what he has said this evening, but there are real quite correct to say that the Government will be held to issues—[Interruption.] That is fine, but it is the Government account; indeed, this issue could end up in the courts. who are putting forward their new clause, which now has no teeth. However, there is a second, more important reason In conclusion—because I was wrapping up—the LGA why the scheme is not fair—a reason that I put to the says that the proposal will be problematic to enforce. Under-Secretary—and it concerns the difference between What are the Government enforcing? How can local kerbside and co-mingled collections. Kerbside collection government increase recycling rates for residents? If rates are around 30% to 40%, whereas co-mingled action is to be taken, it will hit some of the poorest collections through recycling centres are hitting 80%, communities that have higher recycling rates, not some 90% and beyond. Local authorities in areas with co-mingled of the wealthiest ones, and the same goes for landfill recycling will have high collection rates, but they will taxes. I appreciate Ministers’ comments, but as far as I also have problems with contamination, which I accept. am concerned, I am delighted that all the teeth have The Government are trying to encourage people not to been taken out of this proposal. co-mingle, but to separate. However, collection rates in areas with kerbside collections are much lower, so EU Philip Davies: I certainly hope that the Minister will fines are unfair. give me as helpful a response as he gave the previous speaker when he considers my amendments. The Minister of State, Department for Communities My new clause 8 would allow local authorities to and Local Government (Greg Clark): I do not want to vary Sunday trading hours in their areas. As hon. stop the hon. Gentleman in his tracks, but I think that I Members will know, under the Sunday Trading Act 1994, can reassure him. He is operating on completely the large shops over 280 square metres may open for only wrong premise. There is no suggestion at all that a fine six continuous hours between 10 am and 6 pm on would be levied on an authority because of its performance Sundays, excluding Easter Sunday, when they must on recycling rates. The only suggestion is that if the remain closed. I think that this is rather anachronistic. authority does not adopt a plan as required—that is, Sunday trading is increasingly popular. I have no interest something specifically required of that authority—and to declare, but I do have some experience to declare, as if it has been warned that it needs to have one, that will somebody who worked for Asda for 13 years. In my be the occasion for a fine. That authority’s performance time there, Sunday trading hours were the busiest hours is completely irrelevant, whatever it might be. I hope of the trading week. Contrary to common belief, Sunday that that will reassure the hon. Gentleman and allow trading hours were also the most popular hours that him to return to the issue at hand. members of staff wished to work, because for many people Sunday was one of the few days on which they Graham Jones: I thank the Minister for that, because could do additional hours, as they had other people at he is essentially saying that he has just ripped up his home looking after their children and so on. If people own new clause, which now has no teeth—he has just want to shop on a Sunday or work for certain hours, I taken them all out. If local authorities are to come up do not really see what business the Government have with a plan, they will come up with one and carry on telling them what hours they can do. recycling at 30%. However, the Minister is not going to say to local authorities, “Well, actually, because you’ve Members may be aware that Scotland has a different got a plan, we’re going to do something about it.” regime. Sunday trading is fully deregulated in Scotland, Instead, he will be saying, “You’ve got a plan, so we’re although, under the Sunday Working (Scotland) Act 2003, going to do nothing about it.” He has taken all the teeth workers have the right to refuse to work on Sundays. I out of his own new clause, so why has he proposed it? am not aware that the whole world has collapsed in Why has it taken him until today to say what he has said Scotland as a result of deregulating Sunday trading this evening, and why do ministerial statements say that hours. In fact, my experience is that it has proved to be the proposal involves waste? He is effectively telling incredibly popular with both customers and workers people that— alike. I would like workers and shoppers in England and Wales to have exactly the same rights to shop or work in Greg Clark rose— shops at a time of their choosing as people in Scotland have. Graham Jones: I would like to finish speaking. My new clause 8 would not give local authorities the opportunity simply to extend Sunday trading hours, Greg Clark rose— because I believe in true localism. My new clause also offers local authorities the opportunity to restrict Sunday Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. It is trading hours further, if they so wish. If we believe that up to the Member speaking whether they wish to give decisions should be taken locally, we should give local way. The hon. Gentleman has given way once, and if he authorities the widest possible ability to make decisions wishes to do so again, I am sure that he will let the to suit their areas. In areas that need extra regeneration, Minister know. the opportunity to open for extra hours on a Sunday 221 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 222

[Philip Davies] the whole idea of such fines complete anathema—[HON. MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] I thought that I might get might be welcome, as it may benefit the local authorities some support in the Chamber on that point. We could in such areas. I do not see why the Government should quite easily leave out all reference to the EU, and I stand in those authorities’ way if they believe that to be would like to see that happen. an important part of their regeneration strategy. Other I note that the Minister, in introducing the new local authorities may wish to restrict Sunday trading clause, said that he had already had discussions with the hours. I would not advise them to do so—I do not think Local Government Association. The LGA is very concerned it would be very popular—but that would be up to about this issue, as my hon. Friend the Member for them, as democratically elected local authorities. So I Hyndburn (Graham Jones) rightly said. I hope that the hope that the Minister will explain whether he agrees Government will think again and simply delete any with my proposed extension of the principle of localism. reference to the EU. Rather than giving freedoms to If he does not agree, will he tell me what on earth his local authorities, their proposals will put an imposition objection is to extending a right to the people of England on them. They would place more central control on that the people of Scotland already have? them, rather than leaving them to their own devices and giving them more freedoms. 7pm I hope the Minister will think about this and that the My other amendment is amendment 15, which relates Government see fit, during the later stages of the Bill, to elected mayors. I fully support the amendment tabled to delete any reference to the EU. I strongly support the by my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John LGA’s view, which was ably set out by my hon. Friend, Stevenson) which proposes that such elections should and I hope that the Minister will give this matter some be run on the first-past-the-post basis. I ought to declare thought. I shall not press my amendments to a Division, a slight interest, in that my father is the elected mayor of but I hope that he will bear in mind my feelings and Doncaster. He was elected under the system described those of many other Members. by my hon. Friend, and he would not have been elected under first past the post, because he came second in the Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): I am grateful first ballot. Some might argue that my views are rather for this opportunity to place my views, with which those altruistic, in that I do not support a system that has hon. Members who served on the Public Bill Committee benefited my dad; instead, I want to do what I think is will already be familiar, on the record, and I apologise genuinely the right thing for the country. Others might for any repetition. I fully support amendment 41; indeed, argue that my father being elected under the alternative there are many amendments that I could support, and or supplementary vote system could well be the best many more that I would like to have seen that no one possible argument for first past the post. I would not else would have supported. I feel strongly about this like to comment on that; I will leave it to others to make one, however. It relates to elected mayors and shadow that decision. mayors, and to the executive powers of the mayors. Amendment 41 deals with something that symbolises Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): everything that is wrong with the Bill. Will the hon. Gentleman give way? There is nothing worse than waste, and there is Philip Davies: I want to press on, because the Government nothing worse than a wasted opportunity. The Bill is a have allocated a shameful amount of time for this colossal wasted opportunity for the House to consider debate and other people want to speak. the relationship between central and local government. I support first past the post, even though my father We have profoundly let down the democratic system by would have been disadvantaged by it. My amendment 15 not reviewing that relationship. We could have looked at proposes that there should be a two-thirds reduction in what other countries do, and agreed some basic principles the number of councillors in local authority areas that against which any measures relating to local authorities have an elected mayor. There are already far too many could have been evaluated. I agree with Professor Stewart local councillors; Bradford has 90, for example. The US and Professor Jones, who gave evidence to the Bill Senate has only 100 people in it, for goodness’ sake. Committee, that this is a centralism Bill, rather than a Why do we need 90 councillors in Bradford? If we are to localism Bill. How different it could have been if the have an elected mayor as well, why on earth should we will had been there to make it so. have an additional layer of bureaucracy, more expense Opposition Members will no doubt be delighted to and more levels of local politicians? If we are going to learn that, in my local authority, the Lib Dems lost a have an elected mayor, for goodness’ sake let us reduce seat to Labour. We lost it in an election in which nearly the number of local councillors at the same time and seven out of 10 electors did not turn out to vote. At a save the council tax payer some money. I hope that the time when politics is divided, and when big issues are Government will accept my rather modest amendments, dividing the nation, we again need to ask profound but if they do not, I will certainly be interested to hear questions about why people are so reluctant to turn out their reasons. and vote. We need to ask questions about the quality of the candidates, as well as about the turnout. We also Kelvin Hopkins: I entirely endorse what the hon. need to ask what the measures in the Bill will do to Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) said about first past address the serious democratic deficit in this country. the post. I am not a supporter of elected mayors but, if We know the reasons behind the problem. We know we have to have them, they should be elected by the that, when we knock on the doors, people say that we first-past-the-post system. He is absolutely right. are all the same. The reality is that that is largely true. It I rise briefly to speak to my amendments 353 to 357, is hard to be different in local government. The discretion which would delete clauses 30 to 34. The clauses relate and freedom to be different have disappeared, year by to fines to be imposed by the European Union. I find year, Government by Government. 223 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 224

In Committee, I mentioned local authority budgets. (Mr Ward) for his speech. I did not anticipate hearing Bradford has a budget of more than £1 billion, yet we comments like that from the Government side of the end up discussing only £1 million or £2 million. Local Chamber, but he is a man who says it as it is, and I politicians expend a lot of hot air disputing those respect his views and the way he put them. amounts, while the vast majority of the budget is beyond I shall focus on two aspects of this group of new their control. Yes, we are largely all the same. The Bill clauses and amendments: senior pay policy, dealt with could have removed barriers and restrictions. I do in new clauses 27 and 28, and powers to make supplemental not understand why, when we are desperate to remove provision, as set out in amendment 37 to clause 5. barriers to the private sector to encourage initiative, Bringing transparency to senior council pay is entirely entrepreneurship, enterprise and freedoms, we do not right. I accept that some people might have been paid do the same thing at local government level. Those excessively in some circumstances, but this constant barriers will remain after the Bill has been passed. bashing of chief executives and senior council officers The Government are still overbearing, arrogant and by Ministers does a complete disservice to people who interfering. They are still ruling by stipulation, by do an incredibly difficult job in councils up and down compulsion and by bribery. They provide handouts that the country. Some of these people will have worked local government can spend, but on one thing only. their whole lives in local authorities; others might have How many times have Members who were formerly left good private sector jobs to work there. councillors known that the only show in town involved doing whatever the Government were funding? They were not given the discretion to spend that money as Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The hon. they wished. The funding would go only to the private Lady is adopting a strange position in defending the finance initiatives or to academies, for example. We, as massive increase in pay at the top of the public sector. locally elected councillors, were not given the money Does she accept that her Government could have done and asked how we would like to spend it. Remember the something about transparency? When she talks about a bribery involved in the swimming campaign and the disservice, is not the real disservice to the electors of our free school meals? The initiatives lasted for one year communities who have to pay the bills for these people only, and we had to pick up the tab the year after. They who have earned incredible amounts of money over the were introduced simply to facilitate ministerial press last few years? releases. None of this will be changed by the Bill. Councillors Heidi Alexander: I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman are used and abused. The Treasury insists on controlling was listening. I said that I accepted pay transparency is the finance, and without financial freedom, there is no a good thing at both the top and the bottom of an democratic freedom. The low opinion of local government organisation. I accept that the previous Government held by people in this place staggers me; I am appalled could have brought forward measures to insist on pay by it. An example is the outrageous front-loading of the transparency and I know that some local authorities cuts. Instead of local government being seen as a partner were transparent. Many have independent remuneration to help us through the financial crisis by contributing to panels that would take decisions about councillor pay. I the deficit reduction over a period of time and being know that my own local authority is certainly looking asked for help to deal with it, the cuts have been at having an independent panel to review executive pay. imposed on it from above by a Government who claim My point is that we should shine a light on abuses, but to support localism. that this constant barrage is disproportionate. I support amendment 41. My views on elected mayors These measures are, in my view, all about the Secretary are, quite frankly, my business and they should be of State getting a headline. Listening to him, anyone expressed in a ballot if my council decides that that is could be forgiven for thinking that if only 600-odd what it wants to do. I will participate in that debate—not council chief executives were paid less, the national in this place, but where it should take place: in council budget deficit would be dealt with. It will not. This is a chambers up and down the country. Yes, we should set complete red herring. Let us take the example of my parameters and controls; yes, we should demand disclosure, local authority of Lewisham. The council’s overall pay which was mentioned earlier; but for goodness sake, let bill is £280 million, which pays for thousands of staff. us breathe life back into a vital part of our democratic The top 32 jobs of senior management account for system. £4.1 million; the five executive directors and the chief Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): executive cost the council in the region of £1 million. My hon. Friend makes a powerful case for the next Yes, £1 million is a huge amount of money, but we have localism Bill. Does he agree that it is important, even to take account of these individuals’ responsibilities for those who might not support the amendments on and the repercussions they might face if they gave bad the shadow mayors and related issues, to ask Ministers advice, took bad decisions or implemented bad to look at these proposals again? management. When politicians make a bad decision, they might lose an election, but council officers doing Mr Ward: Of course I agree. the same could end up in prison. Let me conclude by saying that it is time to set local government free. In that respect, the whole Bill, despite some good bits, is a wasted opportunity and thus a Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): The complete failure. responsibility of chief officers has not changed. The last Government actively encouraged councils to be Heidi Alexander: I am conscious that many hon. rewarded in inspections for being seen to pay high Members wish to speak, so I shall limit my comments salaries, because that appeared to make the same officers to a few. I applaud the hon. Member for Bradford East better officers. 225 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 226

7.15 pm chance. In the meantime, I was pleased that the Secretary of State promised to consider introducing into this Bill Heidi Alexander: I have no experience of that happening. a recall mechanism for councillors. That has not happened, I would be interested to speak to the hon. Gentleman so I have done it for him. after the debate to learn more about his experience. I am fortunate in that my constituency is served by What puzzles me most about this Government’s obsession some excellent councillors, but we all know that there with senior pay is that it comes at a time when they seem are some councillors who do very little for their constituents, spectacularly unwilling to tackle excessive pay in the so there should surely be a mechanism whereby residents private sector. I represent a London constituency and I can hold councillors to account during the four years in know that there are bankers, lawyers and accountants between elections in the same way as employees are in who, within five or six years of graduating from university, every other field of human endeavour. It cannot be will be earning £60,000, £70,000 or £80,000 a year. That right to ask Members to vote for measures that will is not far off the wage of a head of children’s services. I introduce recall for parliamentarians, but not for councillors ask whether it can be right to put all the focus on senior in local government, which is just as important. council pay. My new clause would allow for I agree with the amendments tabled by Opposition “25% or more of the… voters in the constituency of an elected Front-Benchers that deal with bringing transparency to local government member” low pay. Lewisham is an authority that has led the way to petition for and trigger a recall election. I think that on implementing the London living wage. As a result of that strikes the right balance between preventing vexatious its London living wage policy, 800 contracted staff are recall attempts and empowering local people to hold better off from the council’s insistence on seeking invitations their elected councillors to account. The new clause from contractors that put in a London living wage bid would greatly empower local people and would keep as well as a regular bid. I am proud of the work that the councillors on their toes, and I hope that it can be put to authority has done on that and I believe that there are the vote so that the House can support it. ways of encouraging the public sector and local councils to do the same. Mr Raynsford: I wish to speak, very briefly, to amendments 365 and 366, which I tabled and which I had wanted to comment on amendment 37, but I relate to standards. am conscious of the time. It is strange how the Government are, drip by drip, telling us which duties they wish to In his opening remarks on the programme motion, protect—whether it be duties to provide a comprehensive the Minister of State, Department for Communities and efficient library service under the Public Libraries and Local Government, the right hon. Member for and Museums Act 1964, or to provide allotments or Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark)—who steered the Bill whatever. Why did the Government not do this work through its Committee stage—expressed a wish to listen before they put out their review of burdensome regulations? to the views of people, whether they were members of A couple of weeks ago, the Select Committee on the Committee, other interested parties, or people who Communities and Local Government heard the Minister had given evidence to the Committee. As he knows, an for Housing and Local Government talk about the awful lot of people gave evidence, and many who gave Department’s decisive leadership in abolishing the Audit evidence on standards gave very interesting evidence. Commission. I would urge the Government to show Sadly, however, the Government did not listen to the some leadership in saying which of the “burdens” they evidence, including that given by the Committee on value and want to see protected. It seems to be one rule Standards in Public Life. The Government may be right for one thing and a completely different rule for something in saying that there is a case for some streamlining of else. I think it is sloppy and poor government—sadly, I the standards procedure, and indeed I conceded that in think many of the Bill’s provisions are an example of Committee, but I am afraid that they are making a poor government. I look forward to voting against serious mistake in substituting for the existing machinery some clauses and in favour of some amendments when a framework that is incoherent, that is potentially extremely we get the chance. weak, and that will contain serious anomalies. Let us examine those three problems. First, clause 17 allows the Secretary of State to require local authorities Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): We have so to establish a procedure relating to the declaration of little time that I am going to cut straight to the chase; I interests, a breach of which will involve a criminal hope not to take more than a minute or two. liability. Clause 16 allows the establishment of an entirely I speak in favour of new clause 10, which I tabled and voluntary framework within which it will be up to a which is supported by Members from both sides of the local authority to decide whether to adopt a code of House. It concerns the recall of councillors. I view this conduct. That could lead to an extraordinary situation. as a simple, obvious, “no brainer” idea, which I hope Someone who had failed, perhaps owing to a technicality, will be met with a nod of approval by both Front-Bench to declare an interest as part of the mandatory requirement teams. I will briefly make the case for it. imposed by Government would be liable for a criminal As Members know, the Government are planning to action, whereas someone who had behaved in a deplorable introduce a recall mechanism for parliamentarians, whereby way—who had bullied people, been dishonest, or behaved Members face being removed from office if their shamelessly in the council chamber—could emerge scot-free constituents so choose. The plans, in my view, do not go because the council concerned had chosen not to adopt nearly far enough. MPs will be subject to recall only if a a code of conduct. That is clearly unsatisfactory. Committee decides that they have committed an act of Secondly, there will be no code of conduct promoted serious wrongdoing. Recall is supposed to be about by Government, like the model code that has existed in empowering people, not parliamentary Committees, so the past, that could serve as the default in the event of a I shall seek to amend that provision when I have a local authority’s failure to adopt its own code. 227 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 228

Thirdly, there is a serious risk that, under clause 16(2), Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Let me first say a local authority that currently has a code of conduct how ably my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John could Stevenson) spoke to amendment 2, which concerns the “withdraw its existing code of conduct without replacing it.” first-past-the-post system for electing mayors. I shall Ministers claimed that they would leave this to local certainly support him in the Lobby if he presses it to government—that they would do the right thing. At a a vote. time when we are all concerned about standards in The Government are clearly in favour of the principle public life, whether at national or local government of elected mayors, given that they propose to allow level, it is extraordinary that they should produce a 12 of them in the Bill. What I want to know is why they half-baked proposal which has not been thought through, are making it so difficult for local authorities to initiate which allows loopholes and anomalies to exist, and the process. Local authorities will rarely, if ever, vote for which—most seriously—undermines the substantial a referendum on the election of mayors. Because of the progress that has been made in recent years in improving cosy relationship that often exists between councillors, those standards. they view elected mayors as a threat. However, elected Although Ministers appear unwilling to accept the mayors can provide leadership and transparency and case for amendments in the House of Commons, I revitalise local democracy, and we should do all that we sincerely hope that Members in another place with real can to encourage them. My amendment 1 would reduce experience of these matters will press amendments to the threshold of the electorate who can petition for an ensure that there is a more coherent, more satisfactory elected mayor from 5% to 2.5%. I hope that the Government and more demanding framework to maintain standards will see the wisdom of my proposal, and will support it. in public life. Gavin Barwell: I want to comment briefly on three of Andrew Percy: I served as a local councillor for the amendments that have been discussed so far. 10 years under the previous standards regime, which I have a huge amount of sympathy for the arguments was an abuse of and an assault on local democracy. As advanced by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond long as councillors do not break any criminal law, it is Park (Zac Goldsmith) about a recall procedure for for the public who elected them to judge their behaviour. councillors, but, although I hope that the Government I was once referred to the standards board by a political will reflect on the points that have been made and that activist for having dared to be a school teacher. The such a procedure will be introduced eventually, I think process wasted public money, because someone had to it would be inappropriate for the House to introduce it investigate, only to find it was all a load of old guff. It before introducing a similar procedure for Members of was a politically motivated referral, and there were Parliament. countless examples of the same thing in my council I found it incredible that the hon. Member for Worsley chamber. Members on all sides reported each other for and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley)—who would not everything. That is a load of old nonsense, and the take an intervention—should criticise the Government sooner it goes the better. for forcing referendums on the governance structure of As for pay policy, I cannot support the amendments local authorities, given that the Government whom she tabled by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for supported forced virtually every council in the country Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley). It is incredible to adopt executive systems of governance with no recourse that the Opposition should advance such proposals, to referendums. having done what they have done to public sector pay at Finally—I am conscious of the time—I strongly support the top. I recall that when the Labour authority in Hull the new clause about Sunday trading that was tabled by was seen as a failing council—I believe that the right my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) He and I do not agree on many issues, but we agreed on was a Minister at the time—we were inspected by two today, sentencing and Sunday trading. I also had a officials who told us that we must pay our senior staff lot of sympathy with the point made by my hon. Friend more. We ended up with five corporate directors on the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) about first outrageous salaries of £105,000 a year. [Interruption.] past the post. He spoke of the need for consistency, but It is true: I was there at the time. We saw a massive his amendment would introduce a big inconsistency explosion in pay. The suggestion that we should take between the Mayor of London and other elected mayors. lessons from the Opposition on the subject takes some The Government should consider that issue in the context swallowing. of the results of the referendum. I do, however, agree that there should be more transparency in regard to private contractors who work Andrew Stunell: The Localism Bill does what it says for local authorities. My local council, which was Labour- on the label. In Committee we tested and tweaked it, controlled until two weeks ago but is now Conservative- and today we are taking another step forward. I urge controlled, has spent £3 million on consultants in the my hon. Friends and Opposition Members to give— last year, and spent millions of pounds in the preceding years. There should be more openness about how money 7.30 pm is spent and how much people in the private sector are Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day). making. There is a good point behind the proposal, although, as I have said, it takes a little bit of swallowing The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already given that the last Government presided over the pay proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), explosion at the top. That the clause be read a Second time. Having made those few comments, I will yield to Question agreed to. other Members who, I am sure, are keen to make their New clause 12 accordingly read a Second time, and own contributions. added to the Bill. 229 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 230

The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions (8) Regulations under this section may not be made unless a necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded draft of the statutory instrument containing the regulations has at that time (Standing Order No. 83E). been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament. (9) Subsections (1) and (2) come into force six months after the New Clause 10 day on which the regulations under subsection (3) are made.’.—(Zac Goldsmith.)

RECALL ELECTIONS Brought up. ‘(1) If 25% or more of the registered voters in the constituency Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill. of an elected local government member sign a relevant recall A Division was called. petition then a recall election must be held on the same date as the next election (whether or not a local election) to be held in Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Division the constituency of the elected government member, provided off. that that election is not less than 12 weeks after the threshold has Question negatived. been reached. (2) In order for a recall petition to be relevant the appropriate Clause 5 returning officer must be satisfied that— POWERS TO MAKE SUPPLEMENTAL PROVISION (a) the petition has been submitted in accordance with the Amendment proposed: 37, page 4, line 22, at end rules provided for in subsection (3) and; insert— (b) there is evidence contained in the petition that the ‘(6A) The power under subsection (1) or (2) may not be elected local government member has— exercised to amend, repeal, revoke or disapply— (i) acted in a way which is financially dishonest or (a) this Part of this Act, disreputable, (b) Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 section 7 or (ii) intentionally misled the body to which he or she section 13, was elected, (c) Small Holdings and Allotments Act 1908 section 23, (iii) broken any promises made by him or her in an election address, (d) Children Act 1989 Part 3 and Schedule 2, (iv) behaved in a way that is likely to bring his or her (e) Childcare Act 2006, Parts 1 and 2, office into disrepute, or (f) Child Poverty Act 2010 Part 2, (v) lost the confidence of his or her electorate. (g) Equality Act 2010, section 88, (3) The Secretary of State must lay regulations before (h) Equality Act 2010, section 149, Parliament within six months of the passing of this Act setting (i) Care Standards Act 2000, out— (j) Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 (a) how notice of intent to petition for recall is to be given, section 21, (b) how “registered voters” are to be defined for different (k) Transport Act 2000 section 145A, types of constituency, (l) Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Exemptions for (c) the definition of “appropriate returning officer”, Disabled Persons) (England) Regulations 2000, (d) the ways in which registered voters can sign a recall (m) Disabled Persons (Badges for Motor Vehicles) petition, (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2007, (n) Disabled Persons (Badges for Motor Vehicles) (e) the ways in which signatures to such petitions will be (England) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2007, verified, (o) Carers and Disabled Children Act 2000, (f) entitlement to vote in, and the conduct of, the recall election, (p) Carers (Recognition and Services) Act 1995, (q) Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and (g) rules on any other related matters as considered Representation) Act 1986, necessary by the Secretary of State, and (r) Mental Health Act 1983 Part 8, (h) consequential, saving, transitory or transitional provision (including amendments to existing statutory provision, (s) Community Care, Services for Carers and Children whenever passed or made). Services (Direct Payments) England Regulations 2009, (t) Public Health Act 1875, (4) The Secretary of State must issue guidance to returning officers on how to make assessments under subsection (2)(b) (u) Public Health Act 1936, within six months of the passing of this Act. (v) Commons Act 2006, (5) The question that is to appear on the ballot papers in a (w) Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, recall election is “Should [name of elected local government (x) Natural Environment and Rural Communities member] be recalled from [name of body or office]?”. Act 2006 section 40, (6) If at a recall election more votes are cast in favour of the (y) Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 section 25 or answer “Yes” than in favour of the answer “No”, then— section 28E, (a) if the elected representative has been elected under a (z) Environment Act 1995 Part 4, first past the post or alternative vote electoral system, (z1) Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976, he or she is recalled and a by-election must be held (z2) Prevention of Damage by Pests Act 1949, within three months in which the recalled candidate may stand, or (z3) Hedgerow Regulations 1997, (b) if the elected representative has been elected under a (z4) Planning (Listed Building and Conservation Areas) system of proportional representation, the next Act 1990 section 66 or section 72, candidate on the relevant party list shall take the seat. (z5) Ancient Monument and Archaeological Areas Act 1979 sections 12 and 13, (7) In this section “elected local government member” means any person elected to the Greater London Authority, a county (z6) National Parks and Access to the Countryside council in England, district council, or London borough council, Act 1949, including an elected mayor of the council; and the Mayor of London. (z7) Animal Welfare Act 2006 section 30, 231 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 232

(z8) Zoo Licensing Act 1981, Havard, Mr Dai Nandy, Lisa (z9) Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 Part 6, Hendrick, Mark Nash, Pamela (z10) Flood and Water Management Act 2010 Schedule 3, Hepburn, Mr Stephen O’Donnell, Fiona Heyes, David Onwurah, Chi (z11) Working Time Regulations 1998 Regulation 28, Hillier, Meg Osborne, Sandra (z12) Education Act 1996 section 15ZA, Hodge, rh Margaret Paisley, Ian (z13) Food Safety Act 1990 Parts 1, 2 and 3, Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pearce, Teresa (z14) Freedom of Information Act 2000, Hoey, Kate Perkins, Toby (z15) Housing Grants, Construction and Regeneration Hood, Mr Jim Phillipson, Bridget Act 1996 section 1, Hopkins, Kelvin Pound, Stephen (z16) Housing Act 1996 Part 7, Howarth, rh Mr George Qureshi, Yasmin (z17) Homelessness Act 2002, Hunt, Tristram Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Irranca-Davies, Huw Reed, Mr Jamie (z18) Housing Act 2004 Part 2, James, Mrs Siân C. Reeves, Rachel (z19) Local Government Act 1972 Part VA, section 99 or Jamieson, Cathy Riordan, Mrs Linda section 148, Jarvis, Dan Robertson, John (z20) Local Government Act 2000 Part 3 section 21 or Johnson, Diana Rotheram, Steve section 37, Jones, Graham Roy, Mr Frank (z21) Children and Young Persons Act 1969 Part 1, or Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay (z22) Adoption and Children Act 2002.’.—(Barbara Keeley.) Jones, Mr Kevan Ruane, Chris The House divided: Ayes 225, Noes 303. Jones, Susan Elan Ruddock, rh Joan Jowell, rh Tessa Sarwar, Anas Division No. 273] [7.38 pm Joyce, Eric Seabeck, Alison AYES Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shannon, Jim Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Abbott, Ms Diane Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz Sheerman, Mr Barry Alexander, Heidi Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Ali, Rushanara Davidson, Mr Ian Lammy, rh Mr David Shuker, Gavin Anderson, Mr David Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Simpson, David Austin, Ian De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Bailey, Mr Adrian Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris Smith, rh Mr Andrew Bain, Mr William Dobbin, Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Angela Balls, rh Ed Dobson, rh Frank Lloyd, Tony Smith, Nick Banks, Gordon Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Owen Barron, rh Mr Kevin Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Love, Mr Andrew Spellar, rh Mr John Beckett, rh Margaret Dowd, Jim Lucas, Caroline Straw, rh Mr Jack Begg, Dame Anne Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Ian Stringer, Graham Bell, Sir Stuart Dromey, Jack Mactaggart, Fiona Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Benn, rh Hilary Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Shabana Tami, Mark Benton, Mr Joe Durkan, Mark Mann, John Thomas, Mr Gareth Berger, Luciana Eagle, Ms Angela McCabe, Steve Thornberry, Emily Betts, Mr Clive Eagle, Maria McCarthy, Kerry Timms, rh Stephen Blackman-Woods, Roberta Edwards, Jonathan McClymont, Gregg Trickett, Jon Blenkinsop, Tom Efford, Clive McCrea, Dr William Turner, Karl Blomfield, Paul Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Twigg, Derek Blunkett, rh Mr David Engel, Natascha McDonnell, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Esterson, Bill McFadden, rh Mr Pat Vaz, rh Keith Brennan, Kevin Evans, Chris McGovern, Alison Vaz, Valerie Brown, rh Mr Gordon Farrelly, Paul McGovern, Jim Walley, Joan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Watson, Mr Tom Brown, Mr Russell Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Watts, Mr Dave Bryant, Chris Flint, rh Caroline McKinnell, Catherine Whitehead, Dr Alan Buck, Ms Karen Flynn, Paul Meacher, rh Mr Michael Wicks, rh Malcolm Campbell, Mr Alan Francis, Dr Hywel Mearns, Ian Williams, Hywel Campbell, Mr Gregory Gapes, Mike Michael, rh Alun Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Ronnie Gardiner, Barry Miller, Andrew Wilson, Phil Caton, Martin Gilmore, Sheila Mitchell, Austin Chapman, Mrs Jenny Glass, Pat Wilson, Sammy Moon, Mrs Madeleine Clark, Katy Glindon, Mrs Mary Winnick, Mr David Morden, Jessica Clwyd, rh Ann Godsiff, Mr Roger Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Coffey, Ann Goggins, rh Paul Woodcock, John Morris, Grahame M. Cooper, Rosie Goodman, Helen Woodward, rh Mr Shaun (Easington) Cooper, rh Yvette Greatrex, Tom Wright, David Mudie, Mr George Corbyn, Jeremy Green, Kate Wright, Mr Iain Munn, Meg Crausby, Mr David Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Mr Jim Tellers for the Ayes: Creagh, Mary Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Paul Jonathan Reynolds and Creasy, Stella Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Lyn Brown Cruddas, Jon Hain, rh Mr Peter Cryer, John Hamilton, Mr David Cunningham, Alex Hamilton, Fabian NOES Cunningham, Mr Jim Hanson, rh Mr David Adams, Nigel Aldous, Peter Cunningham, Tony Harman, rh Ms Harriet Afriyie, Adam Andrew, Stuart Curran, Margaret Harris, Mr Tom 233 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 234

Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Eustice, George Kelly, Chris Poulter, Dr Daniel Bacon, Mr Richard Evans, Graham Kirby, Simon Prisk, Mr Mark Baker, Norman Evans, Jonathan Knight, rh Mr Greg Pritchard, Mark Baker, Steve Evennett, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Raab, Mr Dominic Baldry, Tony Fabricant, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Randall, rh Mr John Baldwin, Harriett Featherstone, Lynne Lancaster, Mark Reckless, Mark Barclay, Stephen Field, Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Redwood, rh Mr John Barker, Gregory Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Jessica Rees-Mogg, Jacob Baron, Mr John Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Reevell, Simon Barwell, Gavin Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Reid, Mr Alan Bebb, Guto Freer, Mike Leigh, Mr Edward Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Beith, rh Sir Alan Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Robertson, Hugh Beresford, Sir Paul Gale, Mr Roger Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Mr Laurence Berry, Jake Garnier, Mr Edward Lewis, Brandon Rogerson, Dan Bingham, Andrew Garnier, Mark Lewis, Dr Julian Rosindell, Andrew Binley, Mr Brian Gauke, Mr David Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rudd, Amber Blackman, Bob George, Andrew Lidington, rh Mr David Russell, Bob Blunt, Mr Crispin Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Boles, Nick Gilbert, Stephen Lopresti, Jack Sanders, Mr Adrian Bone, Mr Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lord, Jonathan Sandys, Laura Bottomley, Sir Peter Glen, John Loughton, Tim Scott, Mr Lee Bradley, Karen Goldsmith, Zac Luff, Peter Selous, Andrew Brake, Tom Goodwill, Mr Robert Lumley, Karen Shapps, rh Grant Brazier, Mr Julian Graham, Richard Macleod, Mary Sharma, Alok Bridgen, Andrew Grant, Mrs Helen Main, Mrs Anne Shelbrooke, Alec Brine, Mr Steve Gray, Mr James May, rh Mrs Theresa Shepherd, Mr Richard Brokenshire, James Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Jason Simmonds, Mark Brooke, Annette Green, Damian McCartney, Karl Simpson, Mr Keith Bruce, Fiona Greening, Justine McIntosh, Miss Anne Skidmore, Chris Bruce, rh Malcolm Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Miss Chloe Buckland, Mr Robert Griffiths, Andrew McPartland, Stephen Smith, Henry Burley, Mr Aidan Gummer, Ben McVey, Esther Smith, Julian Burns, rh Mr Simon Gyimah, Mr Sam Menzies, Mark Smith, Sir Robert Burrowes, Mr David Halfon, Robert Mercer, Patrick Soames, Nicholas Byles, Dan Hames, Duncan Metcalfe, Stephen Soubry, Anna Cairns, Alun Hammond, rh Mr Philip Miller, Maria Stephenson, Andrew Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hammond, Stephen Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hancock, Matthew Milton, Anne Stewart, Bob Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Mr Mike Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Rory Carswell, Mr Douglas Harper, Mr Mark Moore, rh Michael Streeter, Mr Gary Cash, Mr William Harrington, Richard Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Morgan, Nicky Stuart, Mr Graham Chope, Mr Christopher Hart, Simon Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, Andrew Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, David Swales, Ian Clark, rh Greg Heald, Oliver Morris, James Swayne, Mr Desmond Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Heath, Mr David Mosley, Stephen Swinson, Jo Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Mowat, David Swire, rh Mr Hugo Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hemming, John Mulholland, Greg Syms, Mr Robert Collins, Damian Henderson, Gordon Mundell, rh David Teather, Sarah Colvile, Oliver Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Thurso, John Crockart, Mike Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Timpson, Mr Edward Crouch, Tracey Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Davey, Mr Edward Hollobone, Mr Philip Neill, Robert Tredinnick, David Davies, David T. C. Holloway, Mr Adam Newmark, Mr Brooks Truss, Elizabeth (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris Newton, Sarah Turner, Mr Andrew Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin Nokes, Caroline Tyrie, Mr Andrew Davies, Philip Howell, John Norman, Jesse Uppal, Paul Davis, rh Mr David Hughes, rh Simon Nuttall, Mr David Vara, Mr Shailesh de Bois, Nick Huhne, rh Chris Offord, Mr Matthew Vickers, Martin Dinenage, Caroline Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ollerenshaw, Eric Walker, Mr Charles Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunter, Mark Ottaway, Richard Walker, Mr Robin Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huppert, Dr Julian Parish, Neil Wallace, Mr Ben Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick Patel, Priti Walter, Mr Robert Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Paterson, rh Mr Owen Ward, Mr David Drax, Richard James, Margot Pawsey, Mark Watkinson, Angela Duncan, rh Mr Alan Javid, Sajid Penning, Mike Weatherley, Mike Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Gareth Penrose, John Webb, Steve Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Percy, Andrew Wharton, James Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Perry, Claire White, Chris Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr David Phillips, Stephen Whittaker, Craig Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr Marcus Pickles, rh Mr Eric Whittingdale, Mr John Elphicke, Charlie Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, Christopher Wiggin, Bill 235 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 236

Willetts, rh Mr David Wright, Jeremy ‘appropriate national authority proposing to make the order’. Williams, Mr Mark Wright, Simon Amendment 61, page 8, line 11, leave out from ‘must’ Williams, Roger Young, rh Sir George to ‘consult’ in line 12. Williams, Stephen Zahawi, Nadhim Williamson, Gavin Amendment 62, page 8, line 16, leave out ‘the Secretary Willott, Jenny Tellers for the Noes: of State’ and insert ‘that appropriate national authority’. Wilson, Mr Rob James Duddridge and Amendment 63, page 8, line 16, at end insert— Wollaston, Dr Sarah Stephen Crabb ‘(6A) Subsection (6) does not apply to an order under subsection (3) or (4) which is made only for the purpose of Question accordingly negatived. amending an earlier such order— (a) so as to extend the earlier order, or any provision of the Clause 5 earlier order, to a particular authority or to authorities of a particular description, or POWERS TO MAKE SUPPLEMENTAL PROVISION (b) so that the earlier order, or any provision of the earlier order, ceases to apply to a particular authority or to Amendments made: 44, page 4, line 24, leave out from authorities of a particular description. ‘must’ to ‘consult’. (6B) The appropriate national authority’s power under Amendment 45, page 4, line 28, at end insert— subsection (1) or (2) is exercisable by the Welsh Ministers so far ‘(8) Before making an order under subsection (1) that has as it is power to make provision that— effect in relation to Wales, the Secretary of State must consult the (a) would be within the legislative competence of the Welsh Ministers.’.—(Robert Neill.) National Assembly for Wales if it were contained in an Act of the Assembly, and Clause 6 (b) does not relate to a fire and rescue authority for an area in England. PROCEDURE FOR ORDERS UNDER SECTION 5 (6C) The appropriate national authority’s power under Amendments made: 46, page 4, line 30, after ‘5(7)’, subsection (1) or (2) is exercisable by the Secretary of State so far insert ‘and (8)’. as it is not exercisable by the Welsh Ministers. Amendment 47, page 4, line 33, leave out from ‘must’ (6D) The appropriate national authority’s power under to ‘undertake’ in line 34. subsection (3) or (4) is exercisable— (a) in relation to England by the Secretary of State, and Amendment 48, page 4, line 36, after ‘5(7)’, insert (b) in relation to Wales by the Welsh Ministers. ‘and (8)’. (6E) In exercising power under subsection (1) or (2), the Amendment 49, page 4, line 42, at end insert— Secretary of State may make provision which has effect in relation (ai) the Secretary of State’s reasons for considering to Wales only after having consulted the Welsh Ministers. that the conditions in section [Limits on power (6F) The Welsh Ministers may submit to the Secretary of State under section 5(1)](2), where relevant, are satisfied proposals that power of the Secretary of State under subsection in relation to the proposals,’. (1) or (2) in relation to Wales should be exercised in accordance Amendment 50, page 4, line 43, after ‘5(7)’, insert with the proposals. ‘and (8)’.—(Robert Neill.) (6G) In subsections (1) and (2) “statutory provision” means a provision of— Clause 8 (a) an Act, or (b) an instrument made under an Act, GENERAL POWERS OF CERTAIN FIRE AND RESCUE and in this subsection “Act” includes an Act, or Measure, of AUTHORITIES the National Assembly for Wales.’. Amendments made: 51, page 5, line 41, leave out ‘in Amendment 64, page 8, line 18, at end insert— England’. 5CA Limits on power under section 5C(1) Amendment 52, page 6, line 17, leave out ‘in England’. (1) Provision may not be made under section 5C(1) unless the Amendment 53, page 7, line 9, at end insert— appropriate national authority making the provision considers ‘“Act” (except in a reference to the Localism Act 2011) that the conditions in subsection (2), where relevant, are satisfied includes an Act, or Measure, of the National in relation to that provision. Assembly for Wales; (2) Those conditions are that— “passed” in relation to an Act, or Measure, of the (a) the effect of the provision is proportionate to the National Assembly for Wales means enacted;’. policy objective intended to be secured by the Amendment 54, page 7, line 36, leave out ‘Secretary provision; of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national authority’. (b) the provision, taken as a whole, strikes a fair balance Amendment 55, page 7, line 39, leave out ‘Secretary between the public interest and the interests of any of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national authority’. person adversely affected by it; Amendment 56, page 7, line 41, leave out ‘Secretary (c) the provision does not remove any necessary of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national authority’. protection; (d) the provision does not prevent any person from Amendment 57, page 7, line 43, leave out ‘Secretary continuing to exercise any right or freedom which of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national authority’. that person might reasonably expect to continue to Amendment 58, page 7, line 46, leave out ‘Secretary exercise; of State’ and insert ‘appropriate national authority’. (e) the provision is not of constitutional significance. Amendment 59, page 8, line 1, leave out ‘Secretary of (3) An order under section 5C(1) may not make provision for State’ and insert ‘appropriate national authority’. the delegation or transfer of any function of legislating. Amendment 60, page 8, line 10, leave out ‘Secretary (4) For the purposes of subsection (3) a “function of of State’ and insert legislating” is a function of legislating by order, rules, regulations 237 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 238 or other subordinate instrument. (b) the affirmative resolution procedure (see section 5H), (5) An order under section 5C(1) may not make provision to or abolish or vary any tax.’. (c) the super-affirmative resolution procedure (see section Amendment 65, page 8, line 19, leave out ‘orders 5J). under section 5C’ and insert (2) The explanatory document must give reasons for the Welsh ‘Secretary of State’s orders under section 5C(1) and (2)’. Ministers’ recommendation. Amendment 66, page 8, line 20, after ‘5C(6)’, insert (3) Where the Welsh Ministers’ recommendation is that the negative resolution procedure should apply, that procedure ‘and (6E)’. applies unless, within the 30-day period— Amendment 67, page 8, line 21, after ‘order’, insert (a) the National Assembly for Wales requires the application ‘of the Secretary of State’. of the super-affirmative resolution procedure, in which Amendment 68, page 8, line 23, leave out from ‘must’ case that procedure applies, or to ‘undertake’ in line 24. (b) in a case not within paragraph (a), the Assembly Amendment 69, page 8, line 27, after ‘5C(6)’, insert requires the application of the affirmative resolution ‘and (6E)’. procedure, in which case that procedure applies. Amendment 70, page 8, line 33, at end insert— (4) Where the Welsh Ministers’ recommendation is that the affirmative resolution procedure should apply, that procedure (ai) the Secretary of State’s reasons for considering applies unless, within the 30-day period, the National Assembly that the conditions in section 5CA(2), where for Wales requires the application of the super-affirmative resolution relevant, are satisfied in relation to the proposals,’. procedure, in which case the super-affirmative resolution procedure Amendment 71, page 8, line 34, after ‘5C(6)’, insert applies. ‘and (6E)’. (5) Where the Welsh Ministers’ recommendation is that the Amendment 72, page 9, line 1, after ‘Provision’, super-affirmative resolution procedure should apply, that insert procedure applies. ‘proposed to be made by the Secretary of State’. (6) For the purposes of this section, the National Assembly for Wales is to be taken to have required the application of a Amendment 73, page 9, line 4, leave out ‘5C(5)’ and procedure within the 30-day period if— insert ‘5C(6) and (6E)’. (a) the Assembly resolves within that period that that Amendment 74, page 9, leave out lines 6 to 14. procedure is to apply, or Amendment 75, page 9, line 14, at end insert— (b) in a case not within paragraph (a), a committee of the 5E Procedure for Welsh Ministers’ orders under section Assembly charged with reporting on the draft order 5C(1) and (2) has recommended within that period that that procedure should apply and the Assembly has not by (1) If, as a result of any consultation required by section 5C(6) resolution rejected that recommendation within that with respect to a proposed order of the Welsh Ministers under period. section 5C(1), it appears to the Welsh Ministers that it is appropriate to change the whole or any part of their proposals, (7) In this section “the 30-day period” means the 30 days they must undertake such further consultation with respect to the beginning with the day on which the draft order was laid before changes as they consider appropriate. the National Assembly for Wales under section 5E(2). (2) If, after the conclusion of the consultation required by 5G Negative resolution procedure for draft laid under section 5C(6) and subsection (1), the Welsh Ministers consider it section 5E(2) appropriate to proceed with the making of an order under ‘(1) For the purposes of this Part, “the negative resolution section 5C(1), they must lay before the National Assembly for procedure” in relation to the making of an order pursuant to a Wales— draft order laid under section 5E(2) is as follows. (a) a draft of the order, and (2) The Welsh Ministers may make an order in the terms of the (b) an explanatory document explaining the proposals and draft order subject to the following provisions of this section. giving details of— (3) The Welsh Ministers may not make an order in the terms of (i) the Welsh Ministers’ reasons for considering that the the draft order if the National Assembly for Wales so resolves conditions in section 5CA(2), where relevant, are within the 40-day period. satisfied in relation to the proposals, (4) A committee of the National Assembly for Wales charged (ii) any consultation undertaken under section 5C(6) with reporting on the draft order may, at any time after the and subsection (1), expiry of the 30-day period and before the expiry of the 40-day (iii) any representations received as a result of the period, recommend under this subsection that the Welsh consultation, and Ministers not make an order in the terms of the draft order. (iv) the changes (if any) made as a result of those (5) Where a committee of the National Assembly for Wales representations. makes a recommendation under subsection (4) in relation to a (3) Provision proposed to be made by the Welsh Ministers draft order, the Welsh Ministers may not make an order in the under section 5C(2) may be included in a draft order laid under terms of the draft order unless the recommendation is, in the subsection (2) and, if it is, the explanatory document laid with same Assembly, rejected by resolution of the Assembly. the draft order must also explain the proposals under (6) For the purposes of this section an order is made in the section 5C(2) and give details of any consultation undertaken terms of a draft order if it contains no material changes to the under section 5C(6) with respect to those proposals. provisions of the draft order. 5F Determining Assembly procedures for drafts laid (7) In this section— under section 5E(2) “the 30-day period” has the meaning given by section ‘(1) The explanatory document laid with a draft order under 5F(7), and section 5E(2) must contain a recommendation by the Welsh “the 40-day period” means the 40 days beginning with Ministers as to which of the following should apply in relation to the day on which the draft order was laid before the making of an order pursuant to the draft order— the National Assembly for Wales under section (a) the negative resolution procedure (see section 5G), 5E(2). 239 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 240

(8) For the purpose of calculating the 40-day period in a draft order is approved by the Assembly under subsection (4), case where a recommendation is made under subsection (4) by a recommend under this subsection that no further proceedings be committee of the National Assembly for Wales but the taken in relation to the draft order. recommendation is rejected by the Assembly under subsection (5), (6) Where a committee of the National Assembly for Wales no account is to be taken of any day between the day on which the makes a recommendation under subsection (5) in relation to a recommendation was made and the day on which the recommendation draft order, no proceedings may be taken in relation to the draft was rejected. order in the Assembly under subsection (4) unless the recommendation 5H Affirmative resolution procedure for draft laid under is, in the same Assembly, rejected by resolution of the Assembly. section 5E(2) (7) If, after the expiry of the 60-day period, the Welsh ‘(1) For the purposes of this Part, “the affirmative resolution Ministers wish to make an order consisting of a version of the procedure” in relation to the making of an order pursuant to a draft order with material changes, they must lay before the draft order laid under section 5E(2) is as follows. National Assembly for Wales— (a) a revised draft order, and (2) If after the expiry of the 40-day period the draft order is approved by a resolution of the National Assembly for Wales, (b) a statement giving details of— the Welsh Ministers may make an order in the terms of the draft. (i) any representations made under subsection (2)(a), and (3) However, a committee of the National Assembly for Wales charged with reporting on the draft order may, at any time after (ii) the revisions proposed. the expiry of the 30-day period and before the expiry of the (8) The Welsh Ministers may after laying a revised draft order 40-day period, recommend under this subsection that no further and statement under subsection (7) make an order in the terms of proceedings be taken in relation to the draft order. the revised draft order if it is approved by a resolution of the (4) Where a committee of the National Assembly for Wales National Assembly for Wales. makes a recommendation under subsection (3) in relation to a (9) However, a committee of the National Assembly for Wales draft order, no proceedings may be taken in relation to the draft charged with reporting on the revised draft order may, at any order in the Assembly under subsection (2) unless the recommendation time after the revised draft order is laid under subsection (7) and is, in the same Assembly, rejected by resolution of the Assembly. before it is approved by the Assembly under subsection (8), recommend under this subsection that no further proceedings be (5) For the purposes of subsection (2) an order is made in the taken in relation to the revised draft order. terms of a draft order if the order contains no material changes to the provisions of the draft order. (10) Where a committee of the National Assembly for Wales makes a recommendation under subsection (9) in relation to a (6) In this section— revised draft order, no proceedings may be taken in relation to “the 30-day period” has the meaning given by section the revised draft order in the Assembly under subsection (8) 5F(7), and unless the recommendation is, in the same Assembly, rejected by “the 40-day period” has the meaning given by section resolution of the Assembly. 5G(7). (11) For the purposes of subsections (4) and (8) an order is made in the terms of a draft order if it contains no material (7) For the purpose of calculating the 40-day period in a changes to the provisions of the draft order. case where a recommendation is made under subsection (3) by a committee of the National Assembly for Wales but the (12) In this section “the 60-day period” means the 60 days recommendation is rejected by the Assembly under subsection (4), beginning with the day on which the draft order was laid before no account is to be taken of any day between the day on which the the National Assembly for Wales under section 5E(2). recommendation was made and the day on which the recommendation 5K Calculation of time periods was rejected. In calculating any period of days for the purposes of 5J Super-affirmative resolution procedure for draft laid sections 5F to 5J, no account is to be taken of any time during under section 5E(2) which the National Assembly for Wales is dissolved or during ‘(1) For the purposes of this Part, “the super-affirmative which the Assembly is in recess for more than four days.”’. resolution procedure” in relation to the making of an order Amendment 76, page 9, line 15, leave out ‘In’ and pursuant to a draft order laid under section 5E(2) is as follows. insert ‘Omit’. (2) The Welsh Ministers must have regard to— Amendment 77, page 9, line 17, leave out from ‘1972)’ (a) any representations, to end of line 19. (b) any resolution of the National Assembly for Wales, Amendment 78, page 9, line 19, at end insert— and ‘(2A) In section 60(1) of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 (c) any recommendation of a committee of the Assembly (meaning of “subordinate legislation”) for “by the Secretary of charged with reporting on the draft order, State under this Act” substitute “under this Act by the Secretary of State or the Welsh Ministers”.’. made during the 60-day period in relation to the draft order. Amendment 79, page 9, line 23, after ‘order’, insert (3) If, after the expiry of the 60-day period, the Welsh ‘made by the Secretary of State’. Ministers want to make an order in the terms of the draft order, they must lay before the National Assembly for Wales a Amendment 80, page 9, line 24, leave out ‘5D(5)’ and statement— insert ‘5C(6A)’. (a) stating whether any representations were made under Amendment 81, page 9, line 25, after ‘order’, insert subsection (2)(a), and ‘made by the Secretary of State’. (b) if any representations were so made, giving details of Amendment 82, page 9, line 27, after ‘purpose,’, them. insert— (4) The Welsh Ministers may after the laying of such a ‘(ba) an order made by the Secretary of State under statement make an order in the terms of the draft order if it is section 5C(2) that— approved by a resolution of the National Assembly for Wales. (i) amends any Act or provision of an Act, and (5) However, a committee of the National Assembly for Wales (ii) is not made in accordance with sections 15 to 19 of charged with reporting on the draft order may, at any time after the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 the laying of a statement under subsection (3) and before the as applied by section 5D(3),’. 241 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 242

Amendment 83, page 9, line 28, leave out ‘which’ and Amendment 90, page 11, line 16, leave out ‘in England’. insert Amendment 91, page 11, line 22, after ‘State’, insert ‘made by the Secretary of State, other than an order under ‘in relation to fire and rescue authorities in England, and the section 5C, that’. Welsh Ministers in relation to fire and rescue authorities in Amendment 84, page 9, line 32, leave out ‘“apart’ and Wales,’. insert ‘“legislation, apart’. Amendment 92, page 11, line 39, leave out from Amendment 85, page 9, line 33, leave out ‘“apart’ and beginning to end of line 2 on page 12. insert ‘“legislation made by the Secretary of State, Amendment 93, page 12, line 5, leave out ‘this section’ apart’. and insert ‘subsection (3)’. Amendment 86, page 9, line 39, at end insert— Amendment 94, page 12, line 15, leave out ‘In’ and ‘(4A) In section 60 of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 insert ‘Omit’. (orders and regulations) after subsection (5) insert— Amendment 95, page 12, line 15, leave out from (6) A statutory instrument containing (alone or with other ‘charging)’ to end of line 18. provisions)— Amendment 96, page 12, line 18, at end insert— (a) an order made by the Welsh Ministers under section 5C(3), other than one that it is made only for the ‘(3A) In section 62 (application of Act in Wales) before purpose mentioned in section 5C(6A), subsection (2) insert— (b) an order made by the Welsh Ministers under section (1B) The reference in subsection (1)(a) to Parts 1 to 6 does not 5C(4), other than one that is made only for that include sections 18A to 18C.”’. purpose or for imposing conditions on the doing of Amendment 97, page 12, line 19, after ‘(3)’, insert things for a commercial purpose, ‘in relation to England or Wales’. (c) an order made by the Welsh Ministers under section Amendment 98, page 12, line 21, after ‘in England’, 5C(2) that— insert (i) amends any Act or provision of an Act or amends any Act, or Measure, of the National Assembly ‘or (as the case may be) Wales’.—(Robert Neill.) for Wales or provision of such an Act or Measure, and Schedule 2 (ii) is not made in accordance with sections 5F to 5K, or NEW ARRANGEMENTS WITH RESPECT TO GOVERNANCE (d) subordinate legislation made by the Welsh Ministers, OF ENGLISH LOCAL AUTHORITIES other than an order under section 5C, that amends Amendment proposed: 2, page 199, leave out lines 30 any Act or provision of an Act, to 43 and insert may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid ‘The elected mayor is to be returned under the simple majority before, and approved by a resolution of, the National Assembly system.’.—(John Stevenson.) for Wales. Question put, That the amendment be made. (7) A statutory instrument containing any other subordinate legislation made by the Welsh Ministers, apart from— The House divided: Ayes 29, Noes 279. (a) an order under section 5C(1), Division No. 274] [7.49 pm (b) an order under section 5C(2) that is made in accordance with sections 5F to 5K, or AYES (c) an order under section 30 or 61, Bebb, Guto Lewis, Dr Julian is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of the Binley, Mr Brian McCartney, Jason National Assembly for Wales.” Brine, Mr Steve McCrea, Dr William Campbell, Mr Gregory Nuttall, Mr David (4B) In section 62 of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 Campbell, Mr Ronnie Paisley, Ian (application of Act in Wales)— Cash, Mr William Rees-Mogg, Jacob (a) in subsection (1)(b) (references to Secretary of State in Chope, Mr Christopher Shannon, Jim sections 60 and 61) for “sections 60 and” substitute Davies, Philip Simpson, David “section”, Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Skinner, Mr Dennis (b) after subsection (1) insert— Dorries, Nadine Stevenson, John “(1A) The reference in subsection (1)(a) to Parts 1 to 6 does Drax, Richard Vickers, Martin not include— Goldsmith, Zac Walker, Mr Charles (a) sections 5A and 5B, Heaton-Harris, Chris Whittaker, Craig (b) sections 5C and 5CA, Hoey, Kate Tellers for the Ayes: Hollobone, Mr Philip (c) section 5D, and Simon Reevell and Hopkins, Kelvin Andrew Percy (d) sections 5E to 5K.”, and (c) omit subsection (3) (disapplication of section 60(4) and (5)).’.—(Robert Neill.) NOES Adams, Nigel Barker, Gregory Clause 9 Aldous, Peter Baron, Mr John Andrew, Stuart Barwell, Gavin Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Beith, rh Sir Alan FIRE AND RESCUE AUTHORITIES: CHARGING Bacon, Mr Richard Beresford, Sir Paul Amendments made: 87, page 10, line 4, leave out ‘in Baker, Norman Berry, Jake England’. Baker, Steve Bingham, Andrew Amendment 88, page 10, line 5, leave out ‘in England’. Baldry, Tony Blackman, Bob Amendment 89, page 10, line 28, after ‘(1)’, insert Baldwin, Harriett Blunt, Mr Crispin ‘and section 18B(1)’. Barclay, Stephen Boles, Nick 243 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 244

Bone, Mr Peter Grayling, rh Chris Mercer, Patrick Shepherd, Mr Richard Bottomley, Sir Peter Green, Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Simmonds, Mark Bradley, Karen Greening, Justine Miller, Maria Simpson, Mr Keith Brake, Tom Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mills, Nigel Skidmore, Chris Brazier, Mr Julian Griffiths, Andrew Milton, Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Bridgen, Andrew Gummer, Ben Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Smith, Henry Brokenshire, James Gyimah, Mr Sam Moore, rh Michael Smith, Julian Brooke, Annette Halfon, Robert Mordaunt, Penny Smith, Sir Robert Bruce, Fiona Hames, Duncan Morgan, Nicky Soames, Nicholas Bruce, rh Malcolm Hammond, rh Mr Philip Morris, Anne Marie Soubry, Anna Buckland, Mr Robert Hammond, Stephen Morris, David Stephenson, Andrew Burley, Mr Aidan Hancock, Matthew Morris, James Stewart, Bob Burns, rh Mr Simon Hancock, Mr Mike Mosley, Stephen Stewart, Rory Burrowes, Mr David Harper, Mr Mark Mowat, David Streeter, Mr Gary Burt, Lorely Harrington, Richard Mulholland, Greg Stride, Mel Byles, Dan Harris, Rebecca Mundell, rh David Stuart, Mr Graham Cairns, Alun Hart, Simon Munt, Tessa Stunell, Andrew Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Murray, Sheryll Swales, Ian Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Heald, Oliver Murrison, Dr Andrew Swayne, Mr Desmond Carmichael, Neil Heath, Mr David Neill, Robert Swinson, Jo Carswell, Mr Douglas Hemming, John Newmark, Mr Brooks Swire, rh Mr Hugo Chishti, Rehman Henderson, Gordon Newton, Sarah Syms, Mr Robert Clappison, Mr James Hinds, Damian Nokes, Caroline Teather, Sarah Clark, rh Greg Hoban, Mr Mark Norman, Jesse Thurso, John Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hollingbery, George Offord, Mr Matthew Timpson, Mr Edward Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Holloway, Mr Adam Ollerenshaw, Eric Tomlinson, Justin Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard Tredinnick, David Collins, Damian Horwood, Martin Parish, Neil Truss, Elizabeth Colvile, Oliver Howell, John Patel, Priti Turner, Mr Andrew Crabb, Stephen Hughes, rh Simon Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Crockart, Mike Huhne, rh Chris Penning, Mike Uppal, Paul Crouch, Tracey Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Penrose, John Vara, Mr Shailesh Davey, Mr Edward Huppert, Dr Julian Perry, Claire Walker, Mr Robin Davies, David T. C. Hurd, Mr Nick Phillips, Stephen Wallace, Mr Ben (Monmouth) Jackson, Mr Stewart Pickles, rh Mr Eric Walter, Mr Robert Davies, Glyn Javid, Sajid Pincher, Christopher Ward, Mr David de Bois, Nick Johnson, Gareth Poulter, Dr Daniel Watkinson, Angela Dinenage, Caroline Jones, Andrew Prisk, Mr Mark Weatherley, Mike Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jones, Mr David Pritchard, Mark Webb, Steve Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, Mr Marcus Raab, Mr Dominic Wharton, James Doyle-Price, Jackie Kawczynski, Daniel Randall, rh Mr John White, Chris Duddridge, James Kelly, Chris Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Whittingdale, Mr John Duncan, rh Mr Alan Kirby, Simon Reckless, Mark Wiggin, Bill Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Knight, rh Mr Greg Redwood, rh Mr John Willetts, rh Mr David Dunne, Mr Philip Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Hywel Edwards, Jonathan Laing, Mrs Eleanor Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Ellis, Michael Lancaster, Mark Robertson, Hugh Williams, Roger Ellison, Jane Latham, Pauline Robertson, Mr Laurence Williams, Stephen Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lee, Jessica Rogerson, Dan Williamson, Gavin Elphicke, Charlie Lee, Dr Phillip Rosindell, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Evans, Graham Lefroy, Jeremy Rudd, Amber Wilson, Sammy Evans, Jonathan Leigh, Mr Edward Russell, Bob Wollaston, Dr Sarah Evennett, Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Rutley, David Wright, Jeremy Fabricant, Michael Lewis, Brandon Sanders, Mr Adrian Wright, Simon Featherstone, Lynne Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Young, rh Sir George Field, Mr Mark Lidington, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Zahawi, Nadhim Foster, rh Mr Don Lloyd, Stephen Selous, Andrew Francois, rh Mr Mark Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Shapps, rh Grant Tellers for the Noes: Freeman, George Lopresti, Jack Sharma, Alok Mr Robert Goodwill and Freer, Mike Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Mark Hunter Fuller, Richard Loughton, Tim Garnier, Mr Edward Lucas, Caroline Question accordingly negatived. Garnier, Mark Luff, Peter Gauke, Mr David Lumley, Karen George, Andrew Macleod, Mary Schedule 2 Gibb, Mr Nick May, rh Mrs Theresa Gilbert, Stephen McCartney, Karl Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl McIntosh, Miss Anne NEW ARRANGEMENTS WITH RESPECT TO GOVERNANCE Glen, John McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick OF ENGLISH LOCAL AUTHORITIES Graham, Richard McPartland, Stephen Amendment proposed: 41, page 211, line 18, leave out Grant, Mrs Helen McVey, Esther from beginning to end of line 31 on page 213.—(Barbara Gray, Mr James Menzies, Mark Keeley.) 245 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 246

Question put, That the amendment be made. McCarthy, Kerry Sarwar, Anas McClymont, Gregg Seabeck, Alison The House divided: Ayes 218, Noes 293. McCrea, Dr William Shannon, Jim Division No. 275] [8.1 pm McDonagh, Siobhain Sharma, Mr Virendra McDonnell, John Sheerman, Mr Barry AYES McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sheridan, Jim McGovern, Alison Shuker, Gavin Abbott, Ms Diane Esterson, Bill McGovern, Jim Simpson, David Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Evans, Chris McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Skinner, Mr Dennis Alexander, Heidi Farrelly, Paul McKechin, Ann Smith, rh Mr Andrew Ali, Rushanara Fitzpatrick, Jim McKinnell, Catherine Smith, Angela Anderson, Mr David Flello, Robert Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, Nick Austin, Ian Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian Smith, Owen Bailey, Mr Adrian Flynn, Paul Michael, rh Alun Spellar, rh Mr John Bain, Mr William Gapes, Mike Miller, Andrew Banks, Gordon Gardiner, Barry Straw, rh Mr Jack Mitchell, Austin Barron, rh Mr Kevin George, Andrew Stringer, Graham Moon, Mrs Madeleine Beckett, rh Margaret Gilmore, Sheila Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Morden, Jessica Begg, Dame Anne Glass, Pat Tami, Mark Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Bell, Sir Stuart Glindon, Mrs Mary Thomas, Mr Gareth Morris, Grahame M. Benn, rh Hilary Godsiff, Mr Roger Thornberry, Emily (Easington) Benton, Mr Joe Goggins, rh Paul Timms, rh Stephen Mudie, Mr George Berger, Luciana Goodman, Helen Trickett, Jon Munn, Meg Betts, Mr Clive Greatrex, Tom Turner, Karl Murphy, rh Mr Jim Blackman-Woods, Roberta Green, Kate Murphy, rh Paul Twigg, Derek Blenkinsop, Tom Greenwood, Lilian Murray, Ian Umunna, Mr Chuka Blomfield, Paul Griffith, Nia Nandy, Lisa Vaz, Valerie Blunkett, rh Mr David Gwynne, Andrew Nash, Pamela Walley, Joan Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hain, rh Mr Peter O’Donnell, Fiona Ward, Mr David Brennan, Kevin Hamilton, Mr David Onwurah, Chi Watts, Mr Dave Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Fabian Osborne, Sandra Whitehead, Dr Alan Brown, Mr Russell Hanson, rh Mr David Paisley, Ian Wicks, rh Malcolm Bryant, Chris Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pearce, Teresa Williams, Hywel Buck, Ms Karen Harris, Mr Tom Perkins, Toby Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Alan Hendrick, Mark Phillipson, Bridget Wilson, Phil Campbell, Mr Gregory Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pound, Stephen Campbell, Mr Ronnie Heyes, David Wilson, Sammy Qureshi, Yasmin Caton, Martin Hillier, Meg Winnick, Mr David Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hodge, rh Margaret Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Reeves, Rachel Coffey, Ann Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Woodcock, John Riordan, Mrs Linda Connarty, Michael Hoey, Kate Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Robertson, John Cooper, Rosie Hopkins, Kelvin Wright, David Rotheram, Steve Crausby, Mr David Howarth, rh Mr George Wright, Mr Iain Roy, Mr Frank Creagh, Mary Hunt, Tristram Roy, Lindsay Tellers for the Ayes: Creasy, Stella Irranca-Davies, Huw Ruane, Chris Jonathan Reynolds and Cruddas, Jon James, Mrs Siân C. Ruddock, rh Joan Lyn Brown Cryer, John Jamieson, Cathy Cunningham, Alex Jarvis, Dan Cunningham, Mr Jim Johnson, Diana NOES Cunningham, Tony Jones, Graham Adams, Nigel Boles, Nick Curran, Margaret Jones, Helen Afriyie, Adam Bone, Mr Peter Dakin, Nic Jones, Mr Kevan Aldous, Peter Bradley, Karen Danczuk, Simon Jones, Susan Elan Andrew, Stuart Brake, Tom Davies, Geraint Jowell, rh Tessa Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brazier, Mr Julian Davies, Philip Joyce, Eric Bacon, Mr Richard Bridgen, Andrew De Piero, Gloria Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Baker, Norman Brine, Mr Steve Denham, rh Mr John Keeley, Barbara Baker, Steve Brooke, Annette Dobbin, Jim Kendall, Liz Baldry, Tony Bruce, Fiona Dobson, rh Frank Khan, rh Sadiq Baldwin, Harriett Bruce, rh Malcolm Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lammy, rh Mr David Barclay, Stephen Buckland, Mr Robert Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lavery, Ian Barker, Gregory Burley, Mr Aidan Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lazarowicz, Mark Baron, Mr John Burns, rh Mr Simon Dowd, Jim Leslie, Chris Doyle, Gemma Lewis, Mr Ivan Barwell, Gavin Burrowes, Mr David Dromey, Jack Lloyd, Tony Bebb, Guto Burt, Lorely Dugher, Michael Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Beith, rh Sir Alan Byles, Dan Durkan, Mark Love, Mr Andrew Bellingham, Mr Henry Cairns, Alun Eagle, Ms Angela Lucas, Caroline Beresford, Sir Paul Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Eagle, Maria Lucas, Ian Berry, Jake Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Edwards, Jonathan Mactaggart, Fiona Bingham, Andrew Carmichael, Neil Efford, Clive Mahmood, Shabana Binley, Mr Brian Carswell, Mr Douglas Elliott, Julie Mann, John Blackman, Bob Cash, Mr William Engel, Natascha McCabe, Steve Blunt, Mr Crispin Chishti, Rehman 247 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 248

Chope, Mr Christopher Heath, Mr David Munt, Tessa Smith, Julian Clappison, Mr James Heaton-Harris, Chris Murray, Sheryll Smith, Sir Robert Clark, rh Greg Hemming, John Murrison, Dr Andrew Soubry, Anna Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Henderson, Gordon Neill, Robert Stephenson, Andrew Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hinds, Damian Newmark, Mr Brooks Stevenson, John Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hoban, Mr Mark Newton, Sarah Stewart, Bob Collins, Damian Hollingbery, George Nokes, Caroline Stewart, Rory Colvile, Oliver Hollobone, Mr Philip Norman, Jesse Streeter, Mr Gary Crockart, Mike Holloway, Mr Adam Nuttall, Mr David Stride, Mel Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris Offord, Mr Matthew Stuart, Mr Graham Davey, Mr Edward Horwood, Martin Ollerenshaw, Eric Stunell, Andrew Davies, David T. C. Howell, John Ottaway, Richard Swales, Ian (Monmouth) Hughes, rh Simon Parish, Neil Swayne, Mr Desmond Davies, Glyn Huhne, rh Chris Patel, Priti Swinson, Jo de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paterson, rh Mr Owen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Dinenage, Caroline Hunter, Mark Pawsey, Mark Syms, Mr Robert Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian Penning, Mike Teather, Sarah Dorries, Nadine Hurd, Mr Nick Penrose, John Thurso, John Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart Percy, Andrew Timpson, Mr Edward Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Perry, Claire Tomlinson, Justin Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Phillips, Stephen Truss, Elizabeth Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Gareth Pickles, rh Mr Eric Turner, Mr Andrew Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Tyrie, Mr Andrew Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel Uppal, Paul Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kawczynski, Daniel Pritchard, Mark Vickers, Martin Elphicke, Charlie Kelly, Chris Raab, Mr Dominic Walker, Mr Charles Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Randall, rh Mr John Walker, Mr Robin Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Redwood, rh Mr John Wallace, Mr Ben Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Rees-Mogg, Jacob Walter, Mr Robert Evennett, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reevell, Simon Watkinson, Angela Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Reid, Mr Alan Weatherley, Mike Featherstone, Lynne Latham, Pauline Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Webb, Steve Field, Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Robertson, Hugh Wharton, James Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, Mr Laurence White, Chris Francois, rh Mr Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Rogerson, Dan Whittaker, Craig Freeman, George Leslie, Charlotte Rosindell, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Freer, Mike Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rudd, Amber Wiggin, Bill Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Ruffley, Mr David Willetts, rh Mr David Gale, Mr Roger Lewis, Dr Julian Russell, Bob Williams, Mr Mark Garnier, Mr Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rutley, David Williams, Roger Garnier, Mark Lidington, rh Mr David Sanders, Mr Adrian Williams, Stephen Gauke, Mr David Lloyd, Stephen Sandys, Laura Williamson, Gavin Gibb, Mr Nick Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Willott, Jenny Gilbert, Stephen Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Wollaston, Dr Sarah Glen, John Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Wright, Jeremy Goldsmith, Zac Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Wright, Simon Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Shepherd, Mr Richard Young, rh Sir George Graham, Richard Main, Mrs Anne Simmonds, Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Jason Simpson, Mr Keith Gray, Mr James McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris Tellers for the Noes: Grayling, rh Chris McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Miss Chloe James Duddridge and Green, Damian McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry Stephen Crabb Greening, Justine McPartland, Stephen Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McVey, Esther Question accordingly negatived. Griffiths, Andrew Menzies, Mark Gummer, Ben Mercer, Patrick Gyimah, Mr Sam Metcalfe, Stephen Halfon, Robert Miller, Maria Hames, Duncan Mills, Nigel Schedule 3 Hammond, rh Mr Philip Milton, Anne Hammond, Stephen Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Hancock, Matthew Moore, rh Michael AMENDMENTS CONSEQUENTIAL UPON NEW Hancock, Mr Mike Mordaunt, Penny ARRANGEMENTS FOR LOCAL AUTHORITY GOVERNANCE Harper, Mr Mark Morgan, Nicky IN ENGLAND Harrington, Richard Morris, Anne Marie Amendments made: 99, page 223, line 4, leave out Harris, Rebecca Morris, David ‘and Hart, Simon Morris, James “mayor and council manager executive”’. Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mosley, Stephen Hayes, Mr John Mowat, David Amendment 100, page 223, line 5, leave out ‘and Heald, Oliver Mundell, rh David “mayor and council manager executive”’. 249 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 250

Amendment 101, page 223, line 10, leave out sub- Amendment 118, page 227, line 10, at end insert— paragraph (6). 32A (1) Section 21F (as inserted by the Local Government Amendment 102, page 224, line 21, leave out sub- (Wales) Measure 2011) (Wales: notifying designated body of paragraph (5). report or recommendations) is amended as follows. Amendment 103, page 225, line 20, leave out ‘In (2) In the title for “Wales: notifying” substitute “Notifying”. section’ and insert— (3) In subsection (1) omit “in Wales”.’. ‘(1) Section’. Amendment 119, page 227, line 11, after ‘21F’, insert Amendment 104, page 225, line 20, leave out ‘in’ and ‘(as inserted by the Flood and Water Management Act 2010)’. insert Amendment 120, page 227, line 12, at end insert— ‘is amended as follows. 33A In the title of section 21G (Wales: designated persons) for ‘(2) In’. “Wales: designated” substitute “Designated”.’. Amendment 105, page 225, line 21, at end insert— Amendment 121, page 227, line 16, leave out sub- ‘(3) In subsection (3) in the definition of “area committee” for paragraph (3) and insert— the words from “means—” to “in Wales,” substitute “means”. ‘(3) In subsection (12A)— (4) Omit subsections (4) and (5). (a) for the words from “Secretary” to “Wales),” substitute (5) In subsection (6) omit “in Wales”.’. “Welsh Ministers”, and Amendment 106, page 226, line 23, at end insert— (b) in paragraph (a) omit the words from “, or under” to “section 21B,”.’. ‘(2A) In subsection (2ZA) omit “in Wales”.’. Amendment 122, page 227, line 31, leave out Amendment 107, page 226, line 25, leave out ‘, (b) paragraph 39. and (e)’ and insert ‘and (b)’. Amendment 123, page 227, line 33, leave out Amendment 108, page 226, line 26, leave out paragraph paragraph 40. (b) and insert— (b) in paragraph (e) for the words from “committee—” to Amendment 124, page 227, line 37, leave out “a joint overview and scrutiny committee” substitute paragraph 41 and insert— “committee”.’. 41 Omit section 31 (alternative arrangements).’. Amendment 109, page 226, line 28, leave out ‘sections’. Amendment 125, page 228, line 5, leave out paragraph 42 Amendment 110, page 226, line 28, leave out ‘section 21A’ and insert— and insert ‘21A and 21B’. 42 Omit section 32 (alternative arrangements).’. Amendment 111, page 226, line 33, at end insert— Amendment 126, page 228, line 15, leave out ‘(5A) In subsection (10A) omit “in Wales”.’. paragraph 43. Amendment 112, page 226, line 34, leave out ‘omit Amendment 127, page 228, line 18, at end insert— paragraph (aa).’ and insert ‘— 43A (1) Section 33ZA (Wales: changing governance (a) in paragraph (aa) omit the words from “by virtue of” arrangements) is amended as follows. to “England) or”, and (2) In the heading for “Wales: changing” substitute “Changing”. (b) in paragraph (c) omit the words from the beginning to (3) Omit “in Wales,”.’. “in Wales”.’. Amendment 113, page 226, line 35, leave out sub- Amendment 128, page 228, line 19, leave out from paragraph (7). ‘arrangements)’ to end of line 21. Amendment 114, page 226, line 42, leave out sub- Amendment 129, page 231, line 37, leave out sub- paragraphs (2) and (3) and insert— paragraph (5).—(Greg Clark.) ‘(2) In subsection (3) omit the words from “(in the case of a local authority in England” to “Wales)”. Clause 16 (3) In subsection (6)(a) omit the words from “section 236” to “2007 or”. VOLUNTARY CODES OF CONDUCT (4) Omit subsections (10) and (11). Amendments made: 130, page 16, line 18, leave out (5) In subsection (12) omit “in Wales”.’. ‘may’ and insert ‘must’. Amendment 115, page 227, line 3, leave out paragraph 29. Amendment 131, page 16, line 19, leave out Amendment 116, page 227, line 7, leave out ‘Omit ‘any manner that it considers appropriate’ section’ and insert— and insert ‘(1) Section’. ‘such manner as it considers is likely to bring the adoption, Amendment 117, page 227, line 8, after ‘information)’, revision or withdrawal of the code of conduct to the attention of insert persons who live in its area’.—(Greg Clark.) ‘is amended as follows. ‘(2) In subsection (1)(b) omit sub-paragraph (ii). New Clause 13 (3) In subsection (2) omit “or providing a copy of the document to a relevant partner authority”. FURTHER WARNING NOTICES (4) In subsection (6)— ‘(1) This section applies to a local or public authority which (a) in the definition of “exempt information”— has been given a notice under section 32 in respect of an EU (i) omit “section 246 of the National Health Service financial sanction which is or includes a penalty payment. Act 2006 or”, and (2) Before imposing a requirement on a local or public (ii) at the end insert “and”, and authority to which this section applies to make a further payment (b) omit the definition of “relevant partner authority”.’. under this Part, a Minister of the Crown must give a further 251 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 252 warning notice to the authority and follow the procedures set out (2) A further EU financial sanction notice may be given only if in that notice (subject to any changes to those procedures made the Minister is satisfied that acts of that authority have caused or under subsection (8)). contributed to the continuing infraction of EU law for which the (3) A further warning notice is a notice stating that the EU financial sanction in question was imposed. Minister believes— (3) Section 32(2) and (3) to (5) apply to a further EU financial (a) that acts of that authority may have caused or sanction notice as they apply to an EU financial sanction notice contributed to the continuing infraction of EU law under section 32. for which the EU financial sanction in question was (4) In the application of those provisions to a further EU imposed; and financial sanction notice, references to the total amount of the (b) that, if acts of that authority did cause or contribute to sanction are to be read as referring to the total amount of that continuing infraction of EU law, it would be the relevant periodic payments that are the subject of the appropriate to consider requiring the authority to notice.’.—(Greg Clark.) make a further payment under this Part in respect of any relevant periodic payments. Brought up, and added to the Bill. (4) In this section “relevant periodic payments” means periodic payments falling due from the United Kingdom as part of the EU financial sanction in question which— Clause 30 (a) have not already been the subject of an EU financial sanction notice given to the authority; and POWER TO REQUIRE LOCAL OR PUBLIC AUTHORITIES TO (b) fall due before a date specified in the further warning notice. MAKE PAYMENTS (5) The date so specified must not be later than the day on which the further warning notice is given to the authority in IN RESPECT OF CERTAIN EU FINANCIAL SANCTIONS question. Amendments made: 132, page 22, line 7, leave out (6) The warning notice must also— ‘260’ and insert ‘260(2)’. (a) set out the Minister’s reasons for making the statements mentioned in subsection (3); Amendment 133, page 22, line 14, at end insert ‘; or (b) if the Minister thinks it appropriate to do so, specify (b) in the case of an EU financial sanction that is or the amount of the payment the Minister considers includes a penalty payment, by a further EU financial the authority would be required to pay on the sanction notice under section [Further EU financial assumption that the relevant circumstances have not sanction notices] given by the Minister to that authority changed since the most recent EU financial sanction after complying with the requirements of section notice was given to the authority; [Further warning notices].’.—(Greg Clark.) (c) set out the procedures for determining— (i) whether the authority should be required to make a payment in respect of any relevant periodic Clause 31 payments, and (ii) the amount of any payment the authority is to be required to make; WARNING NOTICES (d) invite the authority to make representations to the Amendments made: 134, page 23, line 29, at end Minister about— insert— (i) any change of circumstances since the most recent ‘(3A) If the EU financial sanction to which the warning notice EU financial sanction notice, or relates is or includes a penalty payment, the sanction is to be (ii) anything else that may be relevant to the treated for the purposes of the warning notice as excluding any determination of the matters mentioned in periodic payment which falls due from the United Kingdom on paragraph (c)(i) and (ii). or after a date specified in the warning notice. (7) The further warning notice may contain such other (3B) The date so specified must not be later than the day on information as the Minister considers appropriate (including, which the warning notice is given to the authority in question.’. in particular, anything of a description mentioned in section 31(3)(b) to (e)). Amendment 135, page 23, line 39, leave out ‘a further’ (8) The Minister may, before the matters mentioned in and insert ‘another’.—(Greg Clark.) subsection (6)(c)(i) and (ii) are determined, give the authority a notice stating any changes that the Minister has decided to make to any procedures or other information set out in the further Clause 32 warning notice. (9) A further warning notice given to a local or public authority may be withdrawn at any time before the matters EU FINANCIAL SANCTION NOTICES mentioned in subsection (6)(c)(i) and (ii) are determined, but this Amendments made: 136, page 24, line 1, at end insert does not prevent another further warning notice being given to ‘and the total amount of that sanction,’. the authority.’.—(Greg Clark.) Amendment 137, page 24, line 10, at end insert— Brought up, and added to the Bill. ‘(2A) If the EU financial sanction to which the notice relates is or includes a penalty payment, the sanction is to be treated for New Clause 14 the purposes of the notice as excluding any periodic payment which falls due from the United Kingdom on or after the date specified under section 31(3A) in the warning notice given to the FURTHER EU FINANCIAL SANCTION NOTICES authority.’. ‘(1) A Minister of the Crown may give a further EU financial Amendment 138, page 24, line 11, leave out ‘specified sanction notice to a local or public authority to which section [Further warning notices] applies in respect of any relevant in the notice’ and insert periodic payments (within the meaning of that section). ‘required to be paid by the authority’.—(Greg Clark.) 253 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 254

Clause 33 “Minister of the Crown” has the same meaning as in the Ministers of the Crown Act 1975; MEANING OF “LOCAL OR PUBLIC AUTHORITY” “relevant authority” means— (a) a district council; Amendments made: 139, page 24, line , at end insert— (b) a county council in England; ‘(d) the Council of the Isles of Scilly.’. (c) the Mayor of London; Amendment 140, page 24, line 37, at end insert— (d) the council of a London borough; ‘(4) The following may not be designated under (e) a Mayoral development corporation; subsection (3)— (f) an urban development corporation; (a) either House of Parliament, a Minister of the Crown (g) a housing action trust; or a United Kingdom government department; (h) the Council of the Isles of Scilly; (b) a court or tribunal.’.—(Greg Clark.) (i) the Broads Authority; (j) a National Park authority in England; (k) the Homes and Communities Agency; or Clause 34 (l) a joint committee established under section 29 of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase INTERPRETATION OF PART: GENERAL Act 2004.”’.—(Greg Clark.) Amendments made: 141, page 24, line 41, at end insert Brought up, and read the First time. ‘or section [Further EU financial sanction notices]’. Amendment 142, page 25, line 3, leave out Greg Clark: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. ‘an obligation under the EU treaties’ and insert Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this ‘a judgment of the Court of Justice of the European Union it will be convenient to discuss the following: made under Article 260(1) of the Treaty on the Functioning of New clause 2—Sustainable development the European Union’. ‘(1) The Secretary of State must, not later than six months Amendment 143, page 25, line 6, at end insert— after this Act is passed, make provision in regulations to— ‘(2) For the purposes of this Part— (a) define sustainable development in the planning (a) references to a periodic payment, in relation to an EU context, and financial sanction that is or includes a penalty (b) incorporate the five principles of sustainability as set payment, are to a payment due under the terms of out in the 2005 Sustainable Development Strategy— the penalty payment; and (i) living within environmental limits; (b) a periodic payment is to be regarded as the subject of (ii) ensuring a strong, healthy and just society; an EU financial sanction notice given to a local or (iii) achieving a sustainable economy; public authority if it is included in the sum specified (iv) promoting good governance; and in such a notice as the total amount of the EU financial sanction to which the notice relates; (v) using sound science responsibly and it is immaterial for the purposes of paragraph (b) whether into planning law and guidance. the EU financial sanction notice in question is given under (2) Before making regulations under subsection (1) the section32 or section [Further EU financial sanction notice].’.— Secretary of State must consult such organisations and persons (Greg Clark.) as the Secretary of State considers appropriate. (3) Regulations under this section shall be made by statutory instrument and shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a New Clause 15 resolution of either House of Parliament.’. New clause 4—Community Right of Appeal APPLICATIONS FOR PLANNING PERMISSION: LOCAL FINANCE CONSIDERATIONS ‘(1) The Town and Country Planning Act 1990 is amended as follows. ‘(1) Section 70 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 (determination of applications for planning permission: general (2) In section 78 (appeals to the Secretary of State against considerations) is amended as follows. planning decisions and failure to take such decisions) after subsection (2) insert— (2) In subsection (2) (local planning authority to have regard to material considerations in dealing with applications) for the “(2A) Where a local planning authority grants an application words from “to the provisions” to the end substitute “to— for planning permission and— (a) the provisions of the development plan, so far as (a) the authority has publicised the application as not material to the application, being in accordance with the development plan in force in the area in which the land to which the (b) any local finance considerations, so far as material to application relates is situated; or the application, and (b) the application is one in which the authority has an (c) any other material considerations.” interest as defined in section 316; (3) After subsection (2) insert— certain persons as specified in subsection (2B) may by notice “(2A) Subsection (2)(b) does not apply in relation to Wales.” appeal to the Secretary of State, provided any one of the (4) After subsection (3) insert— conditions in subsection (2C) are met. “(4) In this section— (2B) Persons who may by notice appeal to the Secretary of “local finance consideration” means— State against the approval of planning permission in the (a) a grant or other financial assistance that has circumstances specified in subsection (2A) are— been, or will or could be, provided to a relevant (a) the ward councillor for the area (if that councillor has authority by a Minister of the Crown, or lodged a formal objection to the planning application (b) sums that a relevant authority has received, or in writing to the planning authority), or where there will or could receive, in payment of is more than one councillor, all councillors by Community Infrastructure Levy; unanimity; 255 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 256

(b) any parish council or neighbourhood forum, as (iii) achieving a sustainable economy; defined in section 61F, covering or adjoining the area (iv) promoting good governance; of land to which the application relates, by two-thirds (v) using sound science responsibly; majority voting; or (b) ‘the planning Acts’ means— (c) any overview and scrutiny committee, by two-thirds (i) the Localism Act 2011; majority voting. (ii) the Planning Act 2008; (2C) The conditions are: (iii) this Act; (a) Section 61W(1) of the Town and Country Planning (iv) the Town and Country Planning Act 1990; Act 1990 applies to the application; (v) the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation (b) the application is accompanied by an environmental Areas) Act 1990; impact assessment; and (vi) the Planning (Hazardous Substances) Act 1990; (c) the planning officer has recommended refusal of and planning permission.”. (vii) the Planning (Consequential Provisions) Act 1990.”’. (3) Section 79 is amended as follows— New clause 7—Removal of permitted area restrictions (a) in subsection (2), leave out “either” and after “authority”, insert “or the applicant (where different ‘(1) A relevant local authority may consider and, if it thinks from the appellant)”; fit, grant an application to vary a converted casino premises licence so that it relates to premises to which it did not previously (b) in subsection (6), after “land”, insert “(except for relate and may do so regardless of whether or not— appeals as defined in section 78(2A) and where the appellant is as defined in section 78(2B)).”.’. (a) the premises to which the application relates are situated in the area of the relevant local authority New clause 5—Powers of the Secretary of State which issued the licence; and ‘(1) If the Secretary of State thinks that a statutory provision (b) the area of the relevant local authority in which those (whenever passed or made) is creating uncertainty for local premises are situated was a permitted area when the authorities in the discharge of their planning functions or is a converted casino premises licence was originally issued. matter of public dispute between local planning authorities and (2) Subsection (1) shall not require a relevant local authority other relevant bodies, the Secretary of State may by order made to consider any application to vary a converted casino premises by statutory instrument amend, repeal, revoke or disapply that licence if that local authority has passed a resolution under provision. section 166 of the Gambling Act 2005 (resolution not to issue (2) The power under subsection (1) may by exercised in casino licences) and that resolution is in effect at the time the relation to— application is made. (a) all local authorities, (3) In Schedule 4 to the Gambling Act 2005 (Commencement (b) particular local authorities, or No. 6 and Transitional Provisions) (Amendment) Order 2006 (c) particular descriptions of local authority. (transitional provisions), for sub-paragraph (13) of paragraph 65 (application of the Gambling Act 2005 to casino premises (3) The power under subsection (1) to amend or disapply a licences granted on a conversion application) substitute— statutory provision includes power to amend or disapply a statutory provision for a particular period. “(13) An application to vary a converted casino premises licence so that it relates to premises to which it did not previously (4) In this section “statutory provision” means a provision of relate shall be made— an Act. (a) in the case of premises wholly or partly situated in the (5) Before making an order under subsection (1) the Secretary area of the licensing authority which issued the of State must consult— licence, to that licensing authority; or (a) such local authorities (b) in the case of premises wholly or partly situated in the (b) such representatives of local government, and area of another licensing authority, to that other (c) such other persons (if any), as the Secretary of State licensing authority, considers appropriate. and section 213(f) (definition of licensing authority) shall (6) The Secretary of State may not make an order under this apply to such an application as if the licensing authority section unless a draft of the statutory instrument containing the considering such an application under paragraph (b) was the order has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each authority which issued that licence. House of Parliament.’. (14) Nothing in paragraph (13)(b) shall require a licensing New clause 6—The purpose of planning authority to consider or grant an application to vary a converted ‘(1) The Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 is casino premises licence so that it relates to premises to which it amended as follows. did not previously relate if— (2) Before section 1 insert— (a) the premises are wholly or partly situated in the area of a licensing authority which did not issue the licence; “A1 Purpose of Planning and (1) The purpose of the planning system is to achieve (b) the licensing authority has resolved under section 166 sustainable development. not to issue casino premises licences and that (2) Any person exercising functions and duties under the resolution is in effect at the time the application is planning Acts must do so with the objective of achieving made.”. sustainable development and shall have regard in doing so to any (4) In this section— guidance given for that purpose by the Secretary of State. “converted casino premises licence”has the same meaning A2 Interpretation as in the Gambling Act 2005 (Commencement ‘(1) In this Act— No. 6 and Transitional Provisions) (Amendment) (a) ‘sustainable development’ means development that Order 2006; meets the social, economic and environmental needs “permitted area” means the area of a local authority of the present without compromising the ability of which was a permitted area for the purposes of future generations to meet their own needs including the Gaming Act 1968; the application of the following principles: “relevant local authority” means a local authority in (i) living within environmental limits; England, Wales or Scotland which is a licensing (ii) ensuring a strong, healthy and just society; authority under the Gambling Act 2005.’. 257 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 258

New clause 11—Transfer of generating station consent New clause 30—Planning consent for betting offices powers to Welsh Ministers ‘(1) That, notwithstanding any existing statutory provision, a ‘(1) The Secretary of State must make regulations to transfer to local authority may require planning consent to be applied for the Welsh Ministers those functions of the Infrastructure Planning pursuant to section 62 of the Town and Country Planning Commission and the Marine Management Organisation which Act 1990 and granted prior to the establishment of, or change of relate to applications for an order granting development consent use of premises or land to establish, a betting office in that local for the construction or extension of generating stations in Wales authority’s area. or in waters in or adjacent to Wales up to the seaward limits of the (2) “Betting office” means premises, other than a track within territorial sea. the meaning of the Gambling Act 2005, in respect of which a (2) Regulations made under subsection (1) must be laid within betting premises licence under Part 8 of that Act has effect.’. 12 months of the passing of this Act and are subject to the New clause 31—Change of use class for betting offices negative resolution procedure.’. ‘The Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Order 1987 is New clause 29—Retail diversity scheme amended as follows— ‘(1) In Part 2 of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act ‘(1) In article 3(6) (exclusion from use classes), at end add— 2004 after section 15 insert— “(n) as a betting office”. 15A (1) The local planning authority must prepare and (2) In Part A (Use Classes) of the Schedule to the principal maintain a scheme to be known as their retail diversity scheme. Order, in Class A2(c) omit “(including use as a betting office)”. (2) The retail diversity scheme must form part of the Local (3) “Betting office” means premises, other than a track within Development Scheme within two years of the Local the meaning of the Gambling Act 2005, in respect of which a Development Scheme being published or within two years of this betting premises licence under Part 8 of that Act has effect.’. Act being passed, whichever is later. New clause 32—Amendment of the Planning and (3) The scheme must— Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 (a) define a network and hierarchy of retail centres in the local authority area, ‘In section 19(1A) of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase (b) assess the need for development in retail centres, Act 2004 (preparation of local development documents)— (c) identify sites for development based on the sequential (a) leave out “(taken as a whole)”, approach, and (b) leave out from “contribute” to “change” and insert— (d) promote retail diversity. (i) achieve reductions of greenhouse gas emissions in line with the carbon budgets set under the (4) In this section— Climate Change Act 2008; (a) ‘retail diversity’ means a mix of retail provision that (ii) meet current national policy objectives on assessing meets the requirements of the local catchment area in the risk of and adapting to climate change, in terms of range and quality of comparison and relation to that area.’. convenience retail businesses; New clause 34—Guidance on opencast mining: separation (b) ‘sequential approach’ means that local planning authorities must identify sites that are suitable, available and zones etc. viable for development in the following order— ‘(1) The Secretary of State must issue guidance on the national (i) locations in appropriate existing centres; planning policy for opencast mining in England within six (ii) edge of centre locations, with preference given to months of this Act being passed. sites that are or will be well connected to existing (2) The guidance must require a minimum separation zone of retail centres; 500 metres between the site of an opencast mine and the nearest (iii) out of centre sites with preference given to sites residential property, unless there are exceptional circumstances. well served by a choice of transport and are (3) Mineral planning authorities in England must have regard closest to an existing centre. to any guidance issued under this section when fulfilling their (5) The Secretary of State may direct the local planning functions. authority to make such amendments to the scheme as he thinks (4) In this section “opencast mining” means the working of appropriate. minerals by opencast operations and the carrying out of (6) Such a direction must contain the Secretary of State’s operations incidental to such working.’. reasons for giving it. New clause 35—Scope of the Town and Country (7) The local planning authority must consult with the local Planning (General Permitted Development) Order (No.2) community in developing the scheme. ‘The Secretary of State must within 12 months of this Act (8) The local community as defined under subsection (7) must being passed, by regulations made by statutory instrument, amend include— the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (a) a parish council or parish councils authorised to act in Order 1995 (S.I. 1995/418) (the “GPDO”) removing permitted relation to the neighbourhood area or areas to which development rights specified in neighbourhood development orders the retail diversity scheme relates subject to section from the scope of the GPDO.’. 61F of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, New clause 36—Scope of the Town and Country (b) a ‘qualifying body’ authorised to act in relation to the Planning (General Permitted Development) Order (No.1) neighbourhood area or areas to which the retail ‘The Secretary of State must within 12 months of this Act diversity scheme relates subject to section 61F of the being passed, by regulations made by statutory instrument, Town and Country Planning Act 1990, and amend the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted (c) any other local person at the discretion of the local Development) Order 1995 (S.I. 1995/418) (the “GPDO”) planning authority. removing land or premises used or formerly used as a public (9) Where a retail planning application is submitted and there house from the scope of the GPDO.’. is no retail diversity scheme in place the applicant must provide a Government amendment 144. statement to the local planning authority that sets out how the Amendment 293, clause 90, page 61, line 6, at end development impacts on the criteria identified in subsection (3); and the local planning authority must consult the local insert community as defined in subsection (8) before coming to a ‘including a County Council, an Integrated Transport Authority decision on the application.”’. for the area or a Marine Plan Authority.’. 259 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 260

Government amendments 145 to 147. Government amendments 157 and 158. Amendment 294, page 61, line 13, after ‘undertaken’, Amendment 369, clause 95, page 66, line 33, leave out insert from ‘levy)’ to end of line 38 and insert ‘in subsection (2), ‘where issues or impacts cross administrative boundaries and after second ‘ensure’, leave out to the end of the subsection with the objective of achieving sustainable development’. and insert Government amendment 148. ‘that owners and developers of land make a financial Amendment 295, page 61, line 15, at end insert— contribution to support communities in the area in which their development is situated, including the provision of infrastructure ‘(ab) the preparation of Joint Infrastructure Planning and the building, improvement and renovation of housing.’. Guidance.’. Government amendments 159 and 160. Government amendment 149. Amendment 6, schedule 9, page 289, line 23, after Amendment 297, page 61, line 17, at end insert— ‘live’, insert ‘, or businesses registered,’. ‘(d) the preparation of the Local Transport Plan; Amendment 7, page 289, line 26, after ‘live’, insert ‘, (e) the preparation of marine plans; and or businesses registered,’. (f) other activities that support the planning of development, so far as relating to the development Amendment 8, page 289, line 27, at end insert— and use of land or sea.’. (ba) the organisation or body is competent to undertake Government amendment 150. the task of preparing a neighbourhood plan with appropriate professional support.’. Amendment 296, page 61, line 18, leave out from ‘land’ to end of line 20 and insert Amendment 9, page 289, line 27, at end insert— ‘and strategic infrastructure and in particular the preparation of (ba) the organisation or body is representative of different Joint Infrastructure Planning Guidance.’. sections of the community.’. Amendment 298, page 61, line 20, at end insert— Amendment 10, page 289, line 28, leave out ‘3’ and insert ‘12’. ‘(3A) The preparation of Joint Infrastructure Planning Guidance within subsection (3) must involve— Government amendments 161 to 163. (a) a local planning authority who is also a member of a Amendment 359, page 292, line 25, at end insert Local Enterprise Partnership as approved by the ‘except for the winning and working of minerals in, on or under Secretary of State; and land by surface working and any associated activity.’. (b) every other person within subsection (1). Government amendments 164 to 168. (3B) The preparation of Joint Infrastructure Planning Guidance within subsection (3) includes in particular— Amendment 301, page 298, line 6, at end insert— (a) the collection of evidence on issues defined in ‘(1A) A neighbourhood development plan must include subsection (3C); policies to— (b) the preparation of policy guidance in relation to issues (a) achieve reductions of greenhouse gas emissions in line defined in subsection (3C); and with the carbon budgets set under the Climate (c) any other activities that support joint infrastructure Change Act 2008; planning. (b) meet current national policy objectives on assessing the (3C) For the purpose of subsection (3B) the issues to be risk of and adapting to climate change, in relation to addressed include— that area.’. (a) housing needs; Government amendments 169 and 170. (b) climate mitigation and adaptation and in particular flood risk; Amendment 12, schedule 10, page 300, line 38, (c) economic development including retail needs; (h) imposing a duty to conduct an equalities impact (d) energy needs and capacity; assessment in line with the Equality Act 2010.’. (e) biodiversity; Government amendments 171 to 174. (f) natural resource use including water management; and Amendment 11, page 303, line 14, at end insert— (g) transport. ‘(1A) Any person who makes written representations seeking (3D) The person or bodies defined in subsection (1) must to change a neighbourhood development order must (if he or she exercise the function of Joint Infrastructure Planning with the so requests) be given the opportunity to appear before and be aim of achieving sustainable development and must act under heard by the person carrying out the examination.’. guidance, including as to the meaning of sustainable development, Government amendments 175 to 182. as set out in the UK Sustainable Development Strategy.’. Amendment 371, clause 102, page 72, line 14, leave Government amendments 151 to 156. out ‘majority’ and insert ‘all’. Amendment 299, page 61, line 36, at end insert— Amendment 372, page 72, line 15, at end insert ‘(7) In this section— ‘and within a radius of a quarter of a mile from the site of the (a) “marine plan” has the same meaning as in section 51 of application’. the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009; (b) “marine plan authority” has the same meaning as in Amendment 370, schedule 13, page 327, line 24, at section 50 of the Marine and Coastal Access Act end insert— 2009; 55A In section 115(1) after ‘associated development’, insert ‘, (c) “sea” has the same meaning as in section 42 of the except where the associated development is the carrying out or Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. construction of surface works, boreholes or pipes on a site all of (8) The fulfilment of the duty in subsection (1) shall be which falls within the area of a single local planning authority, regarded as a material consideration by an independent examiner where consent for such works should be required from the local carrying out functions under section 20(7) of the Planning and planning authority.’. Compulsory Purchase Act 2004.’. Government amendments 184 and 258. 261 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 262

Greg Clark: It is a pleasure to be debating planning Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): On the issues again. I am sorry that that is occasioning an abolition of everything that is regional, which is clearly exodus from the Chamber, as I think it is one of the Government policy and has been for some time, the most fascinating parts of the Bill. I cannot promise to Minister has just indicated that the duty to co-operate emulate the winding-up speech of the Under-Secretary was the central plank that would replace on some sort of State for Communities and Local Government, my of strategic basis the regional dimension. With hindsight, hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew does he think the Government gave enough attention Stunell) who, in 30 seconds, gave the finest speech that I and thought to how the duty to co-operate should be have ever heard him give, but I will endeavour to reach formulated and how it should work in practice? There those high standards. seems to have been an awful lot of criticism from I am delighted to see the hon. Member for Birmingham, everybody with an interest in these matters about the Erdington (Jack Dromey) in his place to respond. Those Government’s position in the Bill. of us who served on the Bill Committee have missed our daily dose of historical education and elucidation, and I Greg Clark: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s dare say that Members who were not on the Committee remarks. I know that as Chairman of the Communities are in for a treat tonight. and Local Government Committee, he has taken a great interest in these matters. I have always been clear We have a large group of amendments to discuss and that the Bill represents a major change and it behoves so as to avoid the fate of my hon. Friend, I will try to any Minister from whatever party to listen to representations say something about as many as possible of them in my and to seek to improve what is a different way of opening remarks so that it may not be necessary to solving a classic problem—planning issues that have a expand at length later in the debate. We made good larger than local dimension to them. The previous progress in Committee on this part of the Bill. There Government attempted a resolution through regional was a shared understanding that there were problems arrangements. We formed a view, for better or for with the planning system that have grown up over time, worse. Some of us on the Government Benches thought which the Bill provides an opportunity to address. It is that those arrangements should not have been entered not a matter of party political contention that the into in the first place. Those on the Opposition Benches persistently observed problems with the planning system would reflect, I think, that the arrangements have had centre around the fact that over recent years it has been their day and should be replaced with a means of too top-down. People have felt that planning is something addressing larger than local issues that is robust and that has been done to them, rather than something in captures the need for strategic planning. I will go straight which they have had a say or which they have had a to the amendments that relate to that—Government chance to influence. amendments 144 to 158—and say something about the Opposition’s amendments as I do so. 8.15 pm We accepted that there was an opportunity to strengthen There is something about the British people which the duty to co-operate that was set out in the Bill as means that if they feel imposed upon, bullied and originally drafted. Indeed, I perhaps agree that a minimalist hustled, they will kick out against that and use every view that was taken of that duty. We have replaced it means at their disposal to frustrate it. That has led to with something that enjoys support from a wide range what all of us as Members of Parliament have seen over of groups, having reached a form that they endorse as a recent years—a rising sense of antipathy to the planning useful resolution to some of these matters. I pay tribute process, often leading to quite emotional exchanges and to the effort and work that many groups outside the people feeling very bruised about the system under House have put into strengthening the duty to co-operate. which they operate. The purpose of the Bill is to remove It would be churlish not to pay tribute to the hon. some of that top-down imposition and provide greater Member for Birmingham, Erdington, who approached opportunities for communities to have their say. these matters in a similar vein; the amendments tabled The second observation that most people share is by the Opposition in Committee provided a basis on that too often when developments take place in which to discuss these matters and to make progress. communities, there is inadequate provision for infrastructure The duty to co-operate will be significantly strengthened and inadequate attention to accommodating the by the amendments that we, as promised, have brought development that takes place. Again, that leads local forward. They are modelled closely on what we said was people to be more inclined to oppose a development appropriate in Committee and what the Royal Town because they are fearful that their community will not Planning Institute has proposed. As the professional have the capacity to resolve some of the difficulties that planning body, it was the organisation that worked development will bring. most closely on this, but a wide range of other outside The Bill attempts to address both those concerns. bodies were involved, including the Wildlife and Among its headline measures, it replaces the regional Countryside Link coalition, which includes the WWF, arrangements that have been in place for some years the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and the and introduces instead a duty to co-operate that brings Town and Country Planning Association. In particular, local authorities together in a more natural way. Rather we have taken up their suggestions, which were echoed than giving an administrative solution to some of the in some of the amendments tabled by the Opposition in problems, it allows people to collaborate, discuss and Committee, to make clearer the application to cross- come to resolutions of larger than local issues. It strengthens boundary issues and to the marine planning system, the requirements for pre-application scrutiny, introduces which needs to be addressed. We have also taken input neighbourhood planning, abolishes the Infrastructure from the Planning Officers Society, whose members will Planning Commission and returns powers ultimately to be charged with meeting the duty to co-operate. As a Ministers through a major infrastructure planning unit. result of its suggestion, our amendment proposes to put 263 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 264 a reference to county councils on to the face of the Bill. The amendment, which is the product of extensive That deals with one of the hon. Gentleman’s amendments consultation with the professional bodies and some of that he will no doubt talk to shortly. the other representative bodies, anticipates and deals The combined effect has been to create a much stronger with many of the amendments that Opposition Front duty to co-operate that covers all authorities and a Benchers might be minded to move. If I have time at the proposed list of prescribed bodies that themselves would end of our considerations on this group, I will respond be subject to that duty, because planning matters clearly to the hon. Gentleman’s remarks. In particular, concern not only local authorities, but other public amendment 293 deals with the inclusion of county bodies. I know from speaking with councils up and councils, and that is covered by our amendments. He down the country that one of the frustrations is that will have heard me mention integrated transport authorities they sometimes feel that they have not had the full and and the marine planning organisations in the list of enthusiastic co-operation of other public bodies in prescribed organisations that I intend to publish. Sustainable producing plans that are clearly relevant to them. development is very clearly marked there and is explicitly referenced, as are local transport plans and marine I have placed in the Library of the House our draft plans. list of bodies to be included in addition to local authorities. They include the Environment Agency, the Historic On this new clause, I can do no better than quote the Buildings and Monuments Commission, Natural England, briefing on that which the Royal Town Planning Institute the Mayor of London, the Civil Aviation Authority, the made available to Members: Homes and Communities Agency, primary care trusts, “The RTPI has worked closely with the Government on the Marine Management Organisation, the Office of strengthening the arrangements for planning at the larger than Rail Regulation, the Highways Agency, Transport for local level and believes that the amended Clause 90 should be London, integrated transport authorities and highways supported.” authorities. I think that it is absolutely right that those It states that the Government are public bodies should be required to give every co-operation “to be congratulated for listening on this issue.” to local authorities in producing strategic plans that are I hope that we have been able to discharge the commitments larger than local plans for their area. that I made in Committee to establish a replacement for We also propose in these amendments an enabling the regional arrangements that is rather more robust power that will require all bodies that are subject to the than the original version. duty to co-operate to have regard to the activities of Let me turn to some of the other new clauses and other bodies when preparing plans that may not have a amendments tabled by hon. Members. The hon. Member public character. Foremost among these are local enterprise for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), who chairs the partnerships. We intend to identify local enterprise Environmental Audit Committee, has asked that this partnerships as bodies that the prescribed bodies with stage of the Bill’s proceedings consider the specific the duty to co-operate must take into account and with question of whether a definition of sustainable development which they will need to co-operate fully. should be included in the Bill. New clause 2 has been The duty to co-operate applies to the preparation of tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset all development plan documents and, in particular, it and North Poole (Annette Brooke) and her colleagues, requires engagement to maximise effectiveness. This and those on the Opposition Front Bench have tabled cannot be a minimal engagement that simply responds some amendments relating to this matter. I will give an to a questionnaire, which it was feared the original indication of the approach I would like to take on this, formulation might lead to. There must be active engagement because it is an area that, as many Members know, is to maximise the effectiveness of all relevant development close to by heart. I completely agree that the purpose of plan documents. It applies to all strategic issues, which planning is to promote sustainable development and will be interpreted as issues that cross at least two local that all plans and decisions should reflect that. authority planning areas. It refers to sustainable New clause 2 captures where we should be, and I development, because we know that the environment, certainly undertake to give my hon. Friend the Member in particular, does not stop at local authority boundaries for Mid Dorset and North Poole most of what she and continues way beyond them, so it is absolutely right seeks. As was always intended, we will bring out a draft that there should be a requirement to co-operate on national planning policy framework in July, which will that. Infrastructure requirements typically go beyond have sustainable development at its heart. It will set out local authority boundaries as well. It requires consideration what we mean by sustainable development. to be given to the preparation of joint plans and development documents. In particular, I hope and expect Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Will that sustainability— that local enterprise partnerships will use their planning sustainability can, of course, include many different powers to pool some of their policies relating to the strains—include community sustainability, such as providing development of the economy so that they will have for places of worship in local communities? attractive, appealing and clear pro-growth policies, especially in areas where there is a need to attract new employers. Greg Clark: My hon. Friend anticipates the detail of The crucial test of the duty to co-operate is the the national policy planning framework, but at this soundness of the plan. If the inspector finds that the stage all I would say on sustainable development is that duty has not been complied with, the plan will be the Government have no issue or disagreement with unsound and cannot be adopted. Therefore, there is an the classic definitions of it. The Brundtland definition, absolute safeguard that this is not just a voluntary that development undertaken by this generation should activity, but that it is absolutely at the heart of plan not compromise the ability of future generations to making, and rightly so, because the strategic level is live their lives, has stood the test of time and is very very important to emphasise. clear. Although I am foreshadowing the content of the 265 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 266

[Greg Clark] perfectly relaxed about doing so, but we should give people the chance to reflect on and to add to the framework, I want to give a clear signal to my hon. definition. Friend and to all hon. Members that we intend to follow that approach. Joan Walley: I hear what the Minister says, but would it not have been more appropriate if we had had that Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): This is a public debate alongside a White Paper, when sustainable little like having the winding-up speeches before the development could have been looked at across the range debate has started, but, in anticipation that there might of planning policy, not just as part of the framework to not be much time to set out the arguments for sustainable be published shortly? We could have looked at that first, development, may I ask the Minister, given what he has but instead we are considering things in the dark. said, whether he agrees that there is no substitute for writing sustainable development into legislation? Here Greg Clark: We are not quite in the dark. I hope that we are, yet we do not have the details of the statement I have illuminated some of the dark, given what I have that will come out next week or later, so how can we been able to say about the proposed contents of that ensure that sustainable development is written into the White Paper. At the time of the Budget, I said that we legislation? Is not that the most important aspect of this would try to bring forward the definition a little earlier exercise? than the rest of the document, because I know that there is an interest in it. That will at least allow the other place to have the benefit of that thinking. If a greater 8.30 pm token of good faith than my words at this Dispatch Box is required, it will appear quite shortly. Greg Clark: I understand the hon. Lady’s point, but I hope she accepts that we have stated clearly that we are I think hon. Members will be satisfied with our very comfortable with the classic definition of sustainable approach. I have long regarded the matter as a personal development, which will be prominent—in fact, it could interest, having shadowed the energy and climate change not be more prominent—in the planning policy framework. brief in opposition, and there is nothing in our approach She has no grounds for concern. Her Committee asked that does anything other than enhance matters. By for an assurance that sustainable development would clarifying, and taking away much of the undergrowth continue to be part of planning policy, and I take that around, planning policy, it will make more resonant the point. principles that the hon. Lady, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington and my Liberal Democrat hon. Friends so rightly want to promote. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I wish to return to the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Neighbourhood planning is another important addition Crawley (Henry Smith) made about places of worship. to the Bill. I freely accept that the initial version of our From my discussions with the Minister, I know that he clauses on this could have been improved, and I made has spoken warm words, but will he use this opportunity commitments in Committee that we would reflect on to place on the record his broad thinking about how improvements that could be made. The hon. Gentleman places of worship can be accounted for in planning was particularly exercised, and indeed lyrical, about the policy? opportunities to improve some of these provisions. He was dismayed that a neighbourhood forum in which these issues could be discussed was liable to take place Greg Clark: I will resist the temptation to stray from in the saloon bar of the Dog and Duck, thinking that the proposed changes before us. There are amendments too intimate a space for such a gathering and suggesting that deal in particular with sustainable development, that it should be larger. We have reflected on the size of but I say in passing that the opportunity for communities public houses across the country, and we think we need to have and to promote places of worship is a reflection to enable more people to attend the forums. of their sense of community, and we would be wholly in opposition to the direction of the Bill if we had any There is no Dog and Duck in Birmingham, as far as I intention of restricting that—quite the reverse. I do not was able to establish, which is a great disappointment. think that my hon. Friend has any cause for concern. There was a Dog and Duck in Holloway Head, which is perhaps an area of the city that he knows, but sadly it The previous Government promoted the five principles was demolished some time after 1899. I have brought in of sustainable development—living within environmental this very appealing photograph of the pub, which I will means, ensuring a strong, healthy and just society, achieving give to the hon. Gentleman so that next time he is in his a sustainable economy, promoting good governance city he can research its antecedents. I have to say that it and using sound science responsibly—in the sustainable does not look the most salubrious of establishments, strategy. I have no difficulty with that, and without but then I do not know what his taste is in public going into too much detail I would expect those principles houses, and he might regret its disappearance. He may to be reflected in planning policy, where they always also be dismayed to hear that another public house have been. That has been the place for them. demolished in Birmingham in recent years was the The challenge from new clause 2—to require sustainable House That Jack Built. I am sure that that is a source of development to be put forward after a period—also regret to everyone in Birmingham, but perhaps it is an carries an important virtue. The national planning policy opportunity for him. framework will be subject to consultation, and it is quite right that we should give people the chance to see Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): While our definition—I have given a pretty broad steer as to my right hon. Friend’s comments are amusing, does he what it will be—and to comment on it, rather than understand the frustration of many of us, including simply capturing something in the Bill now. I would be members of the all-party save the pub group, that even 267 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 268 after this Bill has been passed, it will remain perfectly businesses alone could drive an agenda, which might possible for people to demolish free-standing pubs without not be compatible with what the residents want. I wonder the community having any right to have a say? whether the wording needs to be looked at again. Greg Clark: I understand my hon. Friend’s point. I Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. will say a few words about that in moment, and I hope Before the Minister resumes, I clarify that he is not to give him some comfort. He is absolutely right that supposed to have his back continually to the Chair. He one of the types of building that communities value is supposed to address the whole House, not just the most, whether in towns or villages, is their local pub. Members behind him. I hope that he will bear that in The frustration they feel in seeing some of these buildings mind. demolished without the opportunity to do anything about it is a source of great concern. The Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my Greg Clark: Of course, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst certainly intended no discourtesy to you or anyone else (Robert Neill), who snaffled very sharpish the title of in the Chamber. “Pubs Minister” when the portfolios were being handed We do not want to be too prescriptive in the rules for out just after the general election, takes a particular neighbourhood forums, because we want as many people interest in this and has been meeting representatives of to participate as possible. Nevertheless, we have specified the Campaign for Real Ale, as has my hon. Friend the the requirement in the examination that they should be Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and open to all. Part of the test that the examiner will make his group. is whether there are sufficient efforts to involve all For Members of the House who were not in Committee, sections of the community, including businesses and we asked a series of questions about neighbourhood definitely residents. Various types of residents must also planning. First, is it right for neighbourhoods below the be included, because it is important that the whole local authority level to be able to promote a vision of community is represented. We have also clarified that their future? We agreed that it was. This is easily available councillors have a right to be involved in the neighbourhood to areas that have parish councils or town councils: a forum, even if they do not reside in the ward that they standing democratic body is available, so it is easy to represent, as is sometimes the case. I hope that Government give it such powers. The next question is whether areas amendments 161 and 162 cover the point made by the that do not have parish councils or town councils should hon. Lady. If they need strengthening, we are happy to be excluded from the ability to have a neighbourhood look at them again. I think that they make it clear that plan. There is an argument that they can apply for forums need to reflect the community and should not parish status, so we can provide a little bait to attract allow any narrow interests to dominate. That is one of them towards doing that. Those on both Front Benches the most important tests. reflected on this and agreed that if some parts of the Good points were made in Committee by the hon. country decided that they did not want a standing Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) and the parish council or town council but nevertheless wanted right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich a neighbourhood plan, they should not be denied that. (Mr Raynsford) about cross-border arrangements. I How can we bring together people in those places in recollect that they share a border in Blackheath. It is an acceptable way to discuss these matters? In the Bill, important that Blackheath is able to have a neighbourhood that question turns on neighbourhood forums. We agreed plan, and I very much hope that it will. Government to increase, through amendments, the minimum number amendments, in particular amendment 168, will make of members of a neighbourhood forum from three—the that possible, and will ensure that there will be only one number at which it was rather unfeasibly set—to 21. plan for the area. It would be wrong for competitive Landlords across the country can now count on at least plans for Blackheath to be promoted from the Lewisham 21 customers being in their snug to discuss neighbourhood side and the Greenwich side. It is important that they plans rather than the minimum of three. The hon. work together. Member for Birmingham, Erdington argued strongly that we should increase the number. We have gone a Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Do the provisions little beyond the number that he suggested, and that is of the Bill apply to urban and metropolitan open spaces absolutely right. Government amendment 160 makes in the same way as they do to green belt development? that clear. Amendment 160 also makes it clear that businesses Greg Clark: If residents so desire, the provisions of a should be involved. Clearly, any conception of a neighbourhood plan can designate spaces that residents neighbourhood—certainly one that includes a high street— want to keep as green space. must reflect the fact that sometimes the people who The right hon. Gentleman said in Committee that it have the interests of the community most at heart and should be possible for the examiners of plans to be who most epitomise the community are those who run planning inspectors or local authority officers. We perhaps businesses, because they are at the heart of the community. erred too much on the side of reassuring residents that The fact that someone runs a business in a town but they had the right to promote their plan in the face of a lives elsewhere should not preclude them from participating recalcitrant local authority, and therefore excluded local in the neighbourhood forum. We are happy to reflect authority officers and planning inspectors from being that point, which again was urged by the hon. Gentleman, involved. We actually found, to our delight, that there is in Government amendments. a great deal of enthusiasm on the part of many local Annette Brooke: On amendment 160, will the Minister authorities. Where a community and its local authority clarify what will be the balance between residents and can happily work together, its officers should not be businesses? The amendment could be read to mean that excluded from being involved. 269 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 270

[Greg Clark] allows prescribed steps to be taken in the examination of a neighbourhood plan, including the consideration We have also addressed, in Government amendments 171 of questions about participation. However, we will carefully and 172, the need for the development of neighbourhood consider whether an equalities impact assessment is plans to be properly funded, recognising that the capacity appropriate. of communities varies from place to place. Those On heritage issues, our amendments correct a misdrafting amendments give the Secretary of State the power to that seemed to put in doubt the protection that conservation arrange for payments to be made in support of areas and listed buildings receive in the neighbourhood neighbourhood planning, or for services such as training planning process. That was never our intention. Happily, to be provided. working with the heritage groups, we have been able to agree a set of measures that address that problem. 8.45 pm I wish to say a little about town centres, because I Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): My right hon. know that an amendment on the subject has been Friend gives many words of encouragement to those of tabled. Policy on town centres has always been part of us who have tabled amendments. Does he have any such national planning policy, and I believe that is right. warm words for neighbourhoods that happen to be in a However, as I have done on the subject of sustainable coal mining area and face the threat of open-cast mining development, I wish to signal clearly the importance of applications? They would like to be able to include that having robust policy, including the sequential test that is matter in their neighbourhood plans. currently in planning policy statement 4. That will absolutely be in place, and it will be clear in the new Greg Clark: I was going to come on to my hon. national planning policy framework. Friend’s amendments, but since he raises the matter I will turn to them now. I will have to disappoint him. The Association of Convenience Stores wants, to its Neighbourhood plans are conceived as being about credit, to keep this issue live and in the forefront of our issues that just affect neighbourhoods. Although mineral minds. I am happy that it does so, but it need have no extraction has consequences for particular neighbourhoods, concerns. This Government’s attitude to town centres is it is clearly larger than a local matter. It has consequences absolutely clear: they are at the heart of our communities for the wider authority and, in many cases, for national and nothing should be done that would disadvantage Government. It is not right to expect neighbourhood them or jeopardise that. plans to govern mineral extraction, which goes beyond Government new clause 15 deals with local finance their scope. matters, which has caused the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington and his colleagues some concern Joan Walley: The issue of open-cast coal mining is in recent days. The proposal makes it clear that local critical, particularly in former coal mining areas. If finance matters that are relevant to planning considerations there is going to be a presumption in favour of mineral can be taken into account. It does not change the law in extraction instead of that being balanced with any way, and it is not some stealthy way in which to environmental considerations, that suggests that there introduce a new basis for planning policy. Everyone will be no commitment whatever to sustainable development knows that section 106 payments that are material in at the heart of planning policy. If people cannot prevent planning matters can be taken into consideration. The open-cast coal mining, or have their view of it taken on new clause reflects the fact that the introduction of the board, that will send out a strong message to them that community infrastructure levy, and, potentially, other they will not have any say in future developments in rebates to the local community, as I like to call them, their locality. can be used for planning purposes. It is important to be Greg Clark: No, the hon. Lady has got it wrong. We clear, lest there is any doubt on the part of local are talking about neighbourhood planning, but of course authorities, that such rebates, just like under section a whole panoply of other planning policy applies. There 106, can be made when they are relevant to planning is absolutely no intention to remove the test of sustainability considerations. for mineral extraction or any other proposal, and that Amendment 369, which was tabled by my right hon. will be a matter for national policy. I do not underestimate Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark in any way the importance of open-cast mining for the (Simon Hughes), suggests that CIL should be used communities in which it takes place, but neighbourhood more widely for housing and other local infrastructure. plans are not the mechanism to control it. I hope most It is important that planning committees, which are hon. Members will see that. sometimes nervous and conservative about such matters, are reassured that the use of the CIL for appropriate Nigel Mills: Will my right hon. Friend give way? planning purposes is perfectly legitimate and that it can Greg Clark: I will make some progress, and then be taken into account in planning decisions. perhaps my hon. Friend can come in again. I know that a lot of Members want to speak. Mr Raynsford: The Minister implies that there is no The hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), who change in policy as a result of new clause 15, but may I made many helpful and constructive suggestions in remind him that until three months ago, his Department’s Committee, has tabled two amendments. We will require stance was that financial matters could not be regarded the examiner of plans to take oral evidence if people as material considerations? His Department’s response want to submit it, but we will leave him or her to make to the consultation on the new homes bonus scheme the judgment about whether that is an attempt to delay affirmed that the new homes bonus cannot change the the process or reflects a genuine appetite. Similarly, his position that financial matters are not to be regarded as amendment 12 is unnecessary because the Bill already material considerations. New clause 15 changes that 271 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 272 completely, and changes the presumption that planning attract community infrastructure levy section 106 money, permission cannot be bought and sold, which has been and the local authority might want to renovate the local in the planning system for years. That is an extremely council or housing association estates nearby, or to dangerous move, and I am astonished that the Minister build new social housing. Will he assure me that the Bill has come to it only after 35 minutes of his speech. He will make that possible? has dealt with a lot of detail, but he has not addressed the fundamental threat that new clause 15 poses to the Greg Clark: New clause 15 clarifies that it is reasonable integrity of the planning system. for a planning authority to take such funds into account if they are to be used in connection with the planning Greg Clark: The right hon. Gentleman should be application. On the use to which the funds are put, I reassured that the measure is not a fundamental threat. know that in Committee my right hon. Friend and the Rather, it is an incidental measure for clarification. As Opposition Front-Bench team considered whether the he knows, section 106 payments have always been taken provision could be drawn more widely to include affordable account. There is no change in the policy whatever. He housing. It has not been possible to draw up a definitive misquotes the response to the consultation on the new amendment in time for Report, but I am sympathetic to homes bonus, which is as valid today as it was when it those concerns, so we will introduce further suggestions was published. The response states that in the Lords. “the new Homes Bonus is not intended to encourage housing development which would otherwise be inappropriate in planning Heidi Alexander: Earlier in his remarks, the Minister terms” was quick to quote the Royal Town Planning Institute and that local authorities on the progress that he would say has been made on the “cannot take into account immaterial considerations.” duty to co-operate, so could he tell me, in relation to Therefore, local finance considerations, like any other new clause 15, why the RTPI writes: considerations, should be taken into account only if “The Government’s new amendment to make financial they are material to the application that is being considered. considerations a material consideration is deeply flawed and Let me give an example to the right hon. Gentleman. potentially very damaging to proper planning and contradicts Obviously, if it is perfectly appropriate for a payment assurances given by ministers just 12 weeks ago”? made under a section 106 agreement to be taken into What does he have to say to the RTPI? account by the planning authority, it would be perfectly reasonable for the CIL, for example, to be used to Greg Clark: I have given clear assurances at the provide investment in a road scheme that accommodates Dispatch Box that this is not what the RTPI perhaps a development. If a planning authority considers that suspected or what the right hon. Member for Greenwich to be material, it is perfectly reasonable to take it into and Woolwich clearly suspected: that this was some account. The measure simply clarifies that if payments grand plan to—as he put it—buy and sell planning other than section 106 payments can be used for matters permission. That is not the case. There is no change in that are material to the application, it is legitimate to the dispensation. take them into account. Mr Betts rose— Mr Raynsford: The Minister will have to do better. He should consider whether he is being absolutely open Greg Clark: I give way to the Chairman of the with the House about the significance of the change. Communities and Local Government Committee. The existing presumption is that planning permission cannot be bought and sold, and that financial considerations Mr Betts: I want to get down to practicalities. Given are not material. He will know that section 106 agreements that these matters are now material considerations, is it are negotiated only after planning consent has been not the case that when an application comes before a granted. There should be no question about that. However, local planning authority, the officer of that authority he is clearly muddying the waters—his language implies will have a responsibility to explain in their that—and by making a financial consideration a material recommendations precisely what financial considerations consideration, he is undermining the planning system. I there are and how much will be gained by the authority urge him to reconsider. and the community from granting the application? That Greg Clark: The right hon. Gentleman is disappointed is completely different from any present requirement on that this is not the cunning plot that he sensed it might any planning officer to explain any financial matters be. It is a straightforward clarification, and he needs to before the planning committee makes a decision on an accept that it is not what he thought it was. It is a simple application. and straightforward clarification brought about by the fact that it has been suggested in the press that some of Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. these payments cannot be taken into account. It is Before the Minister replies, I want to say that this is a important that councils understand that, where it is very important point, and I am allowing the interventions relevant to the planning matter in hand—but not to run longer than normal because of its complexity. otherwise—they can continue to take it into account. Can we bear it in mind, however, that we still have a lot That is no different from the present situation, and it is of business to get through? important to clarify that. Greg Clark: The hon. Gentleman has got the wrong Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) end of the stick. It is not required that the planning (LD): I would like to press the Minister on his response application should be determined on the basis of the to my amendment 369. I will make my point by way of financial flow. It is relevant only if it relates to the example: the Shard, being built by London bridge, will planning matter before the authority. For example, if 273 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 274

[Greg Clark] that they do not want have been imposed on them, my concern is to strengthen their ability to control the the community infrastructure levy is to be used to pay process by participating in plan-making. for an access road, it is perfectly reasonable—this is clarified in the new clause—for that to be taken into George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con) rose— account by the local authority. Philip Davies rose—

9pm Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con) rose— I want to make some progress, because I have spoken for 45 minutes. My hon. Friend the Member for St Austell Greg Clark: I will continue to make a bit of progress, and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) has tabled a new clause— then I will certainly give way to my hon. Friends. new clause 4—that would introduce what he describes Taking away some of those appeals for determination as a limited right of appeal for third parties against by an undemocratic body, rather than by local authorities planning applications, just as he did in Committee. Let on the basis of a plan, is the wrong thing to do, and me make a few points about that. In the first place, I would also elevate the status of planning officers above fear that the drafting of new clause 4 is technically members. Such an approach would essentially say to defective. The drafting of proposed new section 78(2B)(c) planning committees that they should either agree with of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 would their planning officers or risk facing an appeal. That is allow any overview and scrutiny committee anywhere in the wrong approach. My hon. Friend the Member for the country to appeal against planning permission granted St Austell and Newquay will shortly see evidence in the by a wholly different authority. Clearly it is not his national planning policy framework of my absolute intention that his planning committee in Cornwall should intention to make plans sovereign, so that it is not appeal against a decision in Tunbridge Wells, so whatever possible simply to set aside democratically agreed local happens, he needs to take that into account. plans in response to particular pressures. The second point is that new clause 4 does not There is also a case for looking at the fact that the address—as it would need to if it were accepted—the costs of losing appeals can sometimes hang over local crucial point of what happens in the meantime if planning authorities. Sometimes the threat of losing an appeal permission is granted by a local council. Is that permission dissuades a local authority from turning down an to be held in abeyance, awaiting a possible appeal, or application that it might want to turn down. We should can planning permission be implemented in the meantime? look at that, to ensure that it will be possible for local If a development goes ahead and there is a successful authorities robustly to stick to their local plans. appeal, would that development need to be demolished? If work is started on a development that needs to be Philip Davies: My right hon. Friend will remember interrupted, is anyone liable for compensation if the visiting my constituency to meet local residents who permission is overturned on appeal? There are therefore were fighting against unwanted developments in a few technical deficiencies with new clause 4 that Micklethwaite and Menston. The logic of what he is would need to be considered. saying seems to be that the appeal process should be evened up to deprive the developer of the opportunity to take their plans to appeal. Is that what he is proposing? Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): I am One way or another, the plans should be equal between grateful to the Minister for explaining the technical the developer and the local residents. On the basis of deficiencies in new clause 4 to me, and particularly for what he has just said, can he clarify whether he is going doing so at 9 o’clock this evening. However, aside from to stop developers having the right to appeal? the technical deficiencies, what is the Government’s view of the principle? I can work on the robustness of Greg Clark: I know that my hon. Friend withdrew an the new clause if the Government can give me their view amendment proposing to deprive developers or property in principle. owners of their right to appeal. He will know, as a robust free-marketeer, that when planning consent was Greg Clark: I will explain, although I will shortly nationalised, it took away people’s opportunity to do draw my remarks to a conclusion, as I know that other what they wanted with their property, and that that Members want to speak. As my hon. Friend and all became subject to the right of appeal. I think that that other members of the Committee know, my view is that is a reasonable safeguard. I want to make the local plan we should move away from a system of planning by clear and sovereign, so that it becomes the determinant development control, where recourse is made to the of planning applications, so that they do not need to go Planning Inspectorate rather than local decision makers, to appeal. which is how the future of our communities has been developed. I want fewer appeals to the Planning Inspectorate George Hollingbery: In my little local town of Bishop’s and more decided locally. Doing that means plan-making Waltham, a supermarket is being built outside the local becoming a much more prominent part of the process. plan. Is the Minister saying that the sovereignty of local Neighbourhood plans and pre-application scrutiny—and, plans will be such that there will be no out-of-plan incidentally, neighbour plans becoming part of the developments at all, even for supermarkets in small development plan, even if the local authority disapproves market towns? —along with the abolition of regional imposition and the prevention of the inspector simply rewriting plans Greg Clark: The combination of neighbourhood plans are all geared towards making the plan prominent and, and local plans in the new system will be much more indeed, sovereign. When we are dealing with the legitimate robust than at present. My hon. Friend can reasonably concerns of communities that feel that developments expect that they will govern the decisions that are taken. 275 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 276

Too often at the moment, an appearance before the buildings, which was warmly welcomed by English Heritage. planning committee is merely the first step on the way This Bill, however, like the Health and Social Care Bill, to an appeal, and that is the wrong way to do planning. remains a bad Bill. I want briefly to refer to the amendments on betting The Government have moved on the duty to co-operate, shops tabled by the right hon. Member for Tottenham admitting that the original proposals did not go far enough. (Mr Lammy). I know from our conversations that he is The Minister of State, Department for Communities very concerned about the proliferation of betting shops and Local Government, the right hon. Member for in his community and elsewhere. We announced in the Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark), a decent man with an Budget a review of how use class orders, relating to a open mind, acknowledged to the Committee that the change in use, are handled in the planning system. I will Government needed to strengthen the duty to co-operate ensure that a specific part of that review deals with the and, in his words, very real issue in the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency, “to make it bite and to make it more encompassing than it and we will look at what can be done to make progress is.”––[Official Report, Localism Public Bill Committee, 15 February in that regard. 2011; c. 599.] Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): When The progress made, however, is extremely limited. It is the Minister undertakes that review and looks into the clear that the Secretary of State, a man with a closed issue, will he consider the fact that there are clusters of mind, sat on his Ministers—a fate too awful to contemplate. betting shops in many high streets, including Deptford Since the Committee stage we have had additional high street in my constituency, and that they are crowding changes to digest emerging from the Budget and those out regeneration and diversity of retail? This proliferation 234 new clauses and amendments. I am afraid to say of betting shops is blighting many areas. He needs to that the sum total of the changes proposed is confusion, take into account not only changes of use but the fact chaos and nothing short of a car crash. that there are far too many instances of this single type Since taking power, the Government have moved at of operation being clustered in one street, which I am breakneck speed to demolish the planning system and sorry to say attracts a lot of antisocial behaviour. to rebuild it within a matter of months. The demolition is nearly complete, with the end of sensible regional Greg Clark: I understand the right hon. Lady’s point. strategic planning, including the folly of the abolition This is something that is reflected across the country. of the regional development agencies and their replacement One aspect of neighbourhood planning will look at the with local economic partnerships with no powers and character of high streets, in particular, to ensure a no money—all because the Secretary of State gets out proper diversity of uses. the clove of garlic and the cross at the very mention of “regional”. Mr Lammy: Will the Minister give way? As the dust settles, has it all been worth it? How does the Minister view the planning landscape? Are we about Greg Clark: I will not give way, because I want to to see a new streamlined planning process delivering conclude my remarks. We have only 50 minutes left, and housing, economic growth, action on climate change a lot of Members wish to speak. and the environment, and transport and infrastructure I hope that I have been able to cover the great while also empowering people? Are we going to see that majority of the new clauses and amendments in this rise from the ashes? group. I know that the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman will want to have his say, as well as Back Benchers. James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con) These measures represent a significant development in rose— our planning procedures. They will correct some long- standing flaws, which have resulted in people not having an opportunity to have their say in plan making from Jack Dromey: With respect, I took many interventions the beginning. They will give neighbourhoods the in Committee, but now that the Minister has taken the opportunity to have their vision of the community best part of an hour, I am determined to get through my promoted as part of the local development plan. I will remarks so that we can hear the maximum number of conclude my remarks now, and I look forward to the contributions from Back Benchers on both sides. rest of the debate. Ending up in a pickle, the Government have produced a system that is desperately unfit for purpose. It is Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): I important to remember what the purpose of planning will speak to Opposition amendments 293 to 299, is. Good planning is a vital tool for delivering the amendment 301 and new clauses 29 and 32; and I shall necessary development, while also delivering on sustainable deal with some Government amendments. development. Planning should integrate the needs of On health, the Government gave not an inch in the economy with environmental and social goals to Committee, got it badly wrong and then paused for create sustainable communities and retain and enhance thought. On localism, the Government admitted in our cultural, historic and landscape assets. Committee that they had got it badly wrong. They We support any sensible reform. We accept that the committed to making changes and are now bringing system the Government inherited was, like any planning forward 234 new clauses and amendments—more than system, capable of improvement. We agree that increased the entirety of provisions in the original Bill. local input by local people and local communities for There are some moves in the right direction. The the future of their areas and their built environment is Government have, for example, accepted our amendment absolutely vital to the success of any planning system. to protect our national heritage and our great historic The reformed planning system, however, must be able 277 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 278

[Jack Dromey] The new clause undermines the fundamental principle that planning decisions should be made in the long-term to meet key tests and objectives. The system must public interest, taking account of land use consequences be able to meet our growing housing need and in the and of what local people actually want, rather than right areas. being based on financial rewards for the decision-maker. It stands on its head what the Government said in the Several hon. Members rose— new homes bonus design document, referred to earlier, which was released on 17 February. It also directly Jack Dromey: I intend to finish my speech soon, for contradicts a written statement released on the same reasons that I have already given. In a debate lasting less day by the Minister for Housing and Local Government than two hours, a Minister spoke for the best part of an who said: hour. I want to allow time for the maximum number of “The New Homes Bonus also sits alongside the existing framework contributions to be made by Back Benchers. for making planning decisions. Responsibility will remain with local authorities to work within this framework to continue to ensure that development is suitable and sustainable by meeting 9.15 pm local needs and national planning policy.” The Government propose to introduce a regressive The new clause represents a fundamental conflict of system that will reallocate moneys away from low-demand interests within planning. We must therefore ask why areas, and will undermine sustainable development by the proposal was not considered earlier. Could it be encouraging growth on the most developable and profitable because since 17 February Ministers have been in receipt rather than the most sustainable sites. The planning of a legal opinion saying that the proposed new homes system must deliver sustainable development, but instead bonus scheme would introduce an unlawful element of including a definition of sustainable development in into the planning decision-making process, and that any the Bill, the Government indicated in the Budget that planning permission granted on the basis that the scheme, they intended a profound shift away from sustainable or a grant under it, is a material consideration would development as the objective of planning towards a stand a good chance of being quashed in a claim for market free-for-all. judicial review? Faced with the news that their cornerstone An effective planning system should contribute to the housing policy was doomed, Ministers have decided to delivery of our future needs, and that includes helping disregard the public interest and have rigged the planning us to meet our carbon commitments in the fight against system instead. Their cries of “Localism” are sounding climate change. The Government, however, have promoted hollower by the minute. This new clause was not considered a toothless duty to co-operate, which will not contribute in Committee, and this profound change to the way in one iota to the mitigation of climate change. A truly which planning works has been introduced with no effective planning system should also be responsive to consultation, dialogue or debate. We will vote against it. local needs, demands and aspirations, but the Government’s What of the Government’s amended duty to co-operate? proposals in relation to neighbourhood planning are Their most significant proposed change is to use the half-baked and a bureaucratic nightmare. They are also local development framework soundness test as a sanction a sham. to ensure that co-operation takes place. That sounds Like other parts of the Bill, the localism agenda with reasonable, except that it is a retrospective test. Unlike regard to planning is wholly undermined by the our amendments, the Government’s amendments do Government’s attempt to face in two directions at once. not specify what is meant by co-operation. It will be On one hand we have the Secretary of State for extremely difficult for any inspector to assess definitively Communities and Local Government trumpeting the whether there has been adequate co-operation. It could devolving of power to local people; on the other hand take several years to judge whether or not co-operation we have the Chancellor, who wants to make it easier for has been successful, a period we can ill afford given the developers to bypass the planning system altogether. I pressing need to meet housing needs, to modernise our can only assume that in the battle between the Treasury infrastructure and to respond to the increasing scientific and the DCLG, the Treasury has won the day. How else evidence of climate change. In short, the Government’s can we explain the introduction of new clause 15, which proposed duty to co-operate remains essentially voluntary, enables financial benefits such as the new homes bonus does not specify a unified product in terms of plan or to be a material consideration in the determining of strategy, does not specify the issues to be dealt with, planning applications? and does not create an effective boundary to shape Ministers and others on the Government Benches the extent of co-operation. It is certainly true that the should be clear about what they are voting for today. proposal in general is a step in the right direction, but The Campaign to Protect Rural England, the Royal this measure simply will not work. Town Planning Institute and the Town and Country On the other hand, our measures go some way towards Planning Association all condemn the proposals. The establishing the planning system the country needs. The CPRE has said: duty we propose places sustainable development as a “We believe that this amendment would fundamentally distort core objective of this co-operation, specifies the scope the planning system by encouraging local authorities to base of the co-operation required, specifies a minimum number decisions on the financial implications rather than the spatial of issues to be the subject of co-operation including merits of the proposed development. It could also undermine the climate, housing, biodiversity and transport, and is plan-led system and result in the spread of developments that go based on a spatial area and not neighbouring authorities against the views of local people.” only, because that does not work for the most strategic That view is echoed across the planning community, planning issues. Our proposed duty also places a statutory and will soon be heard in Members’ surgeries up and requirement on local authorities to prepare a joint down the country. strategy that addresses a number of specified strategic 279 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 280 issues. This duty will not repair the damage the Government while the remaining 65% will be represented by forums are intent on inflicting on the planning system, but it with no democratic legitimacy and no accountability. may salvage something from the wreckage. We want communities to have a greater say in planning What in terms of sustainable development can we and to have a say over their local area, but forums retrieve from the wreckage? At a time when the country should be democratically accountable and involve at is facing unprecedented challenges in economic recovery, least one local councillor. It is simply wrong to downgrade climate change and increased urbanisation, the need for democracy. us to achieve sustainable development and to address We also want to give local communities a greater say these issues effectively has never been greater. However, over the future of their local high street. I see today the abolition of regional spatial strategies has removed that, as a result of Labour’s amendments in Committee, many of the mechanisms that have provided an impetus Mary Portas, who is described as a “TV retail guru”, is for action towards achieving sustainable development to carry out a Government-backed review aimed at and helping to monitor progress. halting the “decline” of the high street in England. Looking to the future, achieving sustainable development Retail summits are fine, but they are not an alternative must be at the heart of the planning system and the Bill, to practical action. The Government should therefore and we therefore welcome new clause 6, tabled by my back the concrete proposals for change that we have put hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North before the House today. In Committee, we moved (Joan Walley), which does exactly that: it puts sustainable amendments to enshrine the “town centre first” policy development at the heart of the Bill. It is also absolutely in primary legislation. We welcomed the all-party consensus vital that the adoption of short-term measures to drive that there clearly was on the importance of this issue economic growth and the abolition of important and the Government’s commitment to placing the “town Government advisers such as the Sustainable Development centre first” policy at the heart of the national planning Commission do not lead us into making decisions that policy framework. Although that was a step in the right are unsuitable for the country in the long term. Somewhere direction, we need to do more to put the heart back into in the planning system consideration must be given to Britain’s high streets. New clause 29 would require a the how actions we take now will have an impact on local planning authority to include a retail diversity future generations. In short, the Government need to scheme within its local development framework. Crucially, be clear about the purpose of planning sustainable the scheme would be developed through a consultation development. The issue is even more imperative given process with the local community, with the voices of the Government’s intention under new clause 15, which local people and of local retailers heard. The new clause would give financial payments a privileged status—first establishes a vital goal: the promotion of retail diversity, among equals—as no other issue, such as housing or striking the right balance between large and small businesses climate change, is specifically identified in the primary and, in particular, focusing on establishing and growing legislation as material. In the light of that, there is no small and specialist retail businesses. justification for not specifying sustainable development in the Bill. 9.30 pm The proposed duty to consider climate change applies Healthy and diverse high streets are the heart of local only to the preparation of local development frameworks communities. High streets and neighbourhood shopping and not to neighbourhood planning. Our proposals on parades are the engine room of thriving communities climate change would ensure that, alongside our approach and local economies. Hon. Members will be all too to strategic planning and the approach taken by my aware that our high streets have suffered in the downturn. hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North to The new clause is not anti-supermarket but we must sustainable development, the mitigation of climate change ensure that the supermarkets do not succeed at the would be at the heart of the local plan-making process. expense of the high street. We must harness their power The new provisions in the Bill on neighbourhood to better the community as a whole. planning have been drafted to avoid the climate change In short, Labour wants to give communities a real say duty. Do the Government seriously expect the carbon in the future of their high streets and the power to make emissions for each neighbourhood forum and each the changes that we want. I know that Ministers will tell local development plan magically to add up to our the House that our proposal to put the heart back in the national target on climate change? high street is not necessary since measures on the “town However, the climate change issues are the tip of the centre first” policy will be included in the long-awaited iceberg when it comes to the Bill’s clauses on neighbourhood national planning policy framework, a document that planning. The Government have proposed a series of has now attained near mythical status—nay, that of the amendments to the neighbourhood planning process holy grail. All that information is supposed to be contained arising out of our debates in Committee. As on the duty within the document yet, like the holy grail, no one has to co-operate, the limited progress is welcome. The seen it. I would submit that this matter—the future of Government have agreed to increase the number of our high street—is so important that it warrants specific people needed to initiate a forum from three to 21, so legislation. The new clause ensures that communities there is no longer the prospect of three men or three and not central Government decide how their retail women in the Dog and Duck constituting themselves as provision should change and grow to meet their needs. a neighbourhood forum. On our other proposals to The Government’s planning Minister, the Minister ensure democratic accountability no concessions have of State, Department for Communities and Local been made. The Government clearly see no need to Government, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge ensure that such forums are accountable, and so 35% of Wells, has said that he wants to give communities real the country will be covered by democratic bodies—parish power over their local areas and will look to strengthen councils, which, at their best, are admirable institutions— the role of our high streets in our towns and cities. If the 281 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 282

Government mean what they say, they should accept about how we can get the right balance between the our changes to the Localism Bill and give local people a pursuit of economic growth and making sure that economic real say over their high street. growth is sustainable. Wherever that definition falls, it On retail diversity, sustainable development, the issues has to be in such a form that it can be developed incorporated in our duty to co-operate and many of the downwards and interpreted by local communities, but other issues raised today, I expect the Minister might also, in a sense, developed upwards within the national tell us, “Don’t worry, it’ll be in the national planning planning policy framework. That is quite a challenge. I policy framework.” Frankly, however, I would not be am pleased that the Minister is prepared to accept what surprised if Ministers told us next that we could look is in the new clause, but I hope that, as he is reflecting, forward to reading about the meaning of life in the he will also take on board some of the points that were NPPF. The NPPF has been trailed by the Government made within the context of new clause 6. as a document that will streamline national planning On new clause 4, I welcome the Minister’s comments policy guidance, but at every turn the Government have about strengthening the basis of local plans. Throughout committed that something additional will be in the my time as chairman of planning it was very frustrating NPPF.The NPPF is clearly a document of vital importance when there were attempts to override the local plan and to the proposed planning changes, but do we have a one felt that one had to give in under the threat of costs. copy of it to read in draft alongside the Bill? No. At the back of my mind, I still think that there ought to There is considerable uncertainty about what the be a community right of appeal as a backstop, perhaps NPPF will be, what it will look like, its status within the on much more limited terms than in the new clause. planning system and the process for its development Obviously, there is still time to reflect on that. and adoption. Promises from the Government that it I remain concerned about the wording of Government will all be okay when the NPPF is published simply will amendment 160 and I hope that will be looked at. not wash. It is wrong that such a major document, so relevant to the radical changes in the Bill, has not been Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Given what the published alongside it. Minister has said, I rise to speak to my new clauses 30 In conclusion, we have in front of us today a blueprint and 31. It cannot be right that there are nine betting for a planning system that will deliver nothing but shops on one stretch of high street in Green Lanes or chaos. It is full of contradictions in its objectives and that there are 10 betting shops within 300 metres of overloaded with inconsistencies in the policies designed Ealing Broadway station. It cannot be right that there to deliver those same confused objectives. The Government are 60 gambling establishments within just 300 metres claim that the Bill will deliver balanced economic growth of the pagoda in Chinatown. The gambling industry and the housing we need, safeguard the environment and bookmakers in particular are flouting the gambling and increase local engagement in planning. In reality, it rules; they are opening up right across London and it is dismantles the strategic planning system and the means unacceptable. That is not to say that we want to condemn to meet our housing need, deliver sustainable economic gambling—I like to gamble—but it is to say that when it growth, meet our energy needs and capacity, safeguard comes to diversity on the high street, local communities our environment and mitigate climate change. While and local authorities should have the planning powers Ministers claim the Bill delivers localism, the sum total to say, “Enough is enough,” “No, thank you,” and “No of their proposals are neighbourhood forums that will more.” That is why I think, and I am supported by be thoroughly opaque, undemocratic and unaccountable. London councils on this, that betting shops should be Any hopes that the Government mean what they say in a sui generis class of their own in the same way that about empowering communities, delivering on sustainable casinos and amusement arcades are. development or mitigating climate change are utterly I shall force new clause 31 to a vote because I am not discredited by their proposal to rig the planning system satisfied that the Minister is not just kicking this issue to make their regressive new homes bonus deliver housing into the long grass. There has been a campaign by in the wrong areas. I hope therefore that Government London Citizens and there is a continuing campaign by Members will support our amendment to strengthen faith communities on the issue. Right across London, strategic planning and give communities a real say on people are sick to death of seeing one betting shop after their local high street, and that they will vote against the another. Government’s new clause 15, which will fatally undermine It is a great shame that the old Hackney town hall has our country’s planning system. been turned into a Coral bookmakers. It is unacceptable that countless pubs across the country are being turned Annette Brooke: I shall be very brief. I share concerns into bookmakers. That is the case for every single class about Government new clause 15 even after the Minister’s use—A2, which is meant to be for building societies and assurances. If bringing financial considerations into the banks, drinking establishments under A4, as has been Bill is not going to make any difference, why include the mentioned, take-aways under A5, and restaurants and measure? I am afraid that I have not got my head cafes under A3. That is why we need action, and why I around that and I am very concerned that we do not had hoped the Minister would say that he accepted the have time to discuss this in depth and understand the amendment, as leaders of councils across London have impact of the change. requested. It is unacceptable to kick the matter into the New clause 2, which is tabled in my name and those long grass. I urge the Minister to think again. of my hon. Friends, was inspired by a report of the Environmental Audit Committee and we have tried to Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): I shall pick up on its main points. I sincerely believe that we speak briefly to new clause 5, which stands in my name. need a definition of sustainable development in the The new clause is designed to allow the Secretary of context of the Bill and I share some of the concerns State to change, by order, any piece of planning legislation 283 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 284 that is causing any planning authority problems in Joan Ruddock: I very much agree. carrying out its statutory duties or where a particular There have been the changes of use on Deptford piece of planning legislation is causing local public High street that I have described, but at the same time controversy. I appreciate that this is an extensive power there has been a determination to improve it, and after for the Secretary of State, but I also propose, as part of years of battling we secured the funds, with the co-operation the same amendment, a strong safeguard in that a of a Labour Government, for a new station at Deptford variation in the law may be made only if it has been subject and we expected new development to follow. However, to a positive resolution of both Houses of Parliament. who will want to live where they will look out on such a The need for such a power is evidenced by an issue in high street? As local campaigner Sue Lawes has described, my constituency. Brighton Marina was built in the at No. 14 we have Better Betting, at Nos. 34 to 40 we 1970s following the lengthy passage of the Brighton have William Hill, at No. 44 we have The Money Shop, Marina Act 1968. The marina is located in an undercliff for payday loans, at Nos. 49 to 50 we have Ladbrokes, at location on land that was reclaimed from the sea. From No. 55 we have Paddy Power, at No. 60 we have Fish the coast road anyone looking at the marina can gaze Brothers pawnbrokers, at No. 70 we have Coral and at downwards to see the boats, shops, restaurants, businesses No. 72 we have H&T pawnbrokers. The final straw is and low-rise accommodation located there. For many Betfred’s application to take over the old Halifax building. years the 1968 Act has been taken to mean that any There the change of use would have been required development above cliff height would be only for ancillary because it was restricted specifically to use by a building works, such as lamp posts and fencing. society. However, in recent years, that has been challenged by The council has of course turned down that application proposals for housing development that would rise well and said, quite reasonably, that there are already far too above the cliff height. One such scheme was agreed by many betting shops in the area and that it is unnecessary. Brighton and Hove city council but not acted on, and They say that within the designated core shopping one was turned down by the council. That refusal was frontage the number of betting shops has reached sustained last year by my right hon. Friend on appeal, “beyond an acceptable level, detracting from the range of retail for which I am grateful. Both these developments were services available within the defined District Town Centre”. highly controversial and there was a clear difference of Betfred has of course appealed. We await the result of opinion between residents and the planning authority that appeal with interest. as to the intention of the 1968 Act. If my amendment to I put it to the Minister that it cannot be acceptable the Bill had been in place, that difference of opinion that, in an area of great deprivation but great spirit, would not have occurred, because the legislation would local residents, 700 of whom have signed a petition, have been crystal clear. Instead, we have had years of have no say in what is done there. I suggest not only that wrangling and uncertainty and still have no clear view local people must have a say, but that others need to be of the meaning of the 1968 Act even now. protected from this kind of proliferation. Surely this is a The thrust of the coalition Government’s policy is to community that can ill afford to spend what little money simplify, eliminate and clarify the rules, regulations and it has in betting shops on this scale. I am not opposed to legislation faced daily by the public and businesses. My betting; none of us is. It is the cluster effect and the new clause would add significantly to the practical proliferation that must be dealt with, and I very much implementation of that policy, and I commend it to the hope that he will see that that is done. House. Philip Davies: I am surprise at the lack of faith that Joan Ruddock: I shall speak to new clauses 30 and 31, the right hon. Members for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan with reference to Deptford high street in my constituency. Ruddock) and for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) have in It is one of the oldest and most historic in the country. their own constituents, because betting shops of course Although the area is one of multiple deprivation, it has go where there is a demand for them. If there was no a diverse and vibrant community, a good retail offer demand for them on the high streets in Lewisham and and a thriving local market. In recent years we have Tottenham, presumably some of them would close down seen a proliferation of betting shops, such as my right because there would not be enough demand. hon. Friend the Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), who tabled the new clauses, described from his own Mr Lammy: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? constituency experience. The problem in Deptford started with Coral, which Philip Davies: No, because I do not have enough took over a shop that had been used as an art gallery time. and café, and moved away only because it was so hugely The fact that these betting shops have not closed successful that it needed bigger premises. There followed down indicates that their constituents want to use them, a succession of developments that took many of our which makes them viable. I commend the right hon. most historic buildings and iconic pubs, such as the Gentleman in particular for leading with his chin on John Evelyn and the Deptford Arms. this issue, because of course it was the Gambling Act 2005 that removed the unstipulated demand test. He was not 9.45 pm only a member of the Government at the time, but in Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, which Does my right hon. Friend also accept that the Bill does introduced the Act that he now finds so offensive. I not go far enough in protecting assets that are of hope that the Minister will resist the siren voices from community value from being transferred to the private the Opposition Benches calling on him to do something sector and that this is something that the Government about the general principle of supply and demand, should have allowed time for us to debate properly which I hope he, as a staunch supporter of the free tonight? market, will stick to. 285 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 286

[Philip Davies] today’s business, recommended—namely, that there should be a definition of sustainable development to allow for I want to touch on new clause 7, which I have tabled, future progress, and that the Localism Bill should include which relates to casinos. It would give all 600 local a statutory duty to apply the principles of sustainability authorities fairly and equally the power to decide whether to the planning system and other functions of local to allow the licensing of casino premises in their areas. government, and set out that definition. The location of casinos was determined by legislation We have not got that far with our modernisation of back in 1972, which identified 53 permitted areas on the parliamentary procedure, but in the interim I genuinely basis of population data as it stood at the time and hope that those valid concerns will be taken into account, added a number of seaside towns. That information is so that we have not a whitewash but a means of balancing now woefully outdated and denies many local authorities what many Opposition Members think, and my hon. access to investment and jobs and unfairly constrains Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack and confines legitimate and licensed businesses. Despite Dromey) said, are now going to be financial considerations, the emergence of new towns and new centres of population, giving developers free rein to do what they like, with the there have been no changes at all to those permitted real principles of sustainable development. areas in almost 40 years. A casino licensed in an existing permitted area can move premises only within the same permitted area in which it was licensed; it may not even Simon Hughes: I will be literally a minute, because transfer to another permitted area, even if a local many colleagues wish to speak. This is not quite the way authority wants it. Those anachronistic and ridiculous I would have chosen to spend my birthday evening, but constraints have enabled casinos, ironically given our there we go. previous discussion, to be crowded into outdated permitted I want to ensure that the Minister has not ignored my areas. Through my new clause I do not seek to allow amendments 371, 372 and 370. The first two would any more casinos in this country, even though I probably require planning authorities to be more effective in their would not object to that in principle; the same limit consultation on a planning application, and I suggest would apply to casinos throughout the country. All my that within a quarter of a mile radius of the application new clause would mean was that casinos were able to site is a much more precise definition than just “the apply to be outside the existing 53 permitted areas, if vicinity”. local authorities wanted them. We would be giving every local authority the chance to have a casino in their I welcome the abolition of the Infrastructure Planning area, if they want it, rather than sticking to outdated Commission, and the fact that the arrangements will be rules from more than 40 years ago. taken back into a democratically accountable planning system. In the case of a big scheme such as the one that we may have coming down the track in Southwark for Joan Walley: I will be brief, because there were many the great Thames sewerage main, I hope that we can still references to sustainable development not only in the allow local authorities the ability to make the planning Minister’s introductory comments, but in the speech decision where there is a large structure in a borough on that the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole a particular site that is a unique part of the development. (Annette Brooke) made. Of course there must be a bigger authority taking a The Minister made what was effectively a winding-up strategic national decision, but where there is a local site speech at the outset, and I rather suspect that the whole of significance, the local authority should have a debate about sustainable development will be discussed supplementary power to make that decision too. I hope further in the other place, so I want to send the most that at some stage I will get positive noises from the powerful message that I can, stating that when that Minister and that we might get appropriate changes at debate takes place we should not just be satisfied with the other end of the building. legislation that relates to guidance or with a new framework policy document that might come out in the near future; Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I rise to speak to my we should make sure that Parliament defines sustainable amendments 11 and 12, which are to do with the right development and sets it out clearly in relation to this to be heard and equalities. It is very important that Bill, in this Bill. individuals and groups have the right to be heard in My amendment is supported not only by my hon. neighbourhood planning. I am grateful for the Minister’s Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), comments. I think he was saying that there would be a who chairs the Communities and Local Government presumption in favour of this, but I would be keen to Committee, but by Friends of the Earth, the Campaign see what criteria people will be using to guard against to Protect Rural England, the Royal Society for the that happening for a mischievous purpose, or whatever. Protection of Birds, the Town and Country Planning If the Minister is saying that there is a presumption in Association, the Wildlife and Countryside League, the favour of oral representation where people want to take Woodland Trust, WWF UK and many more. that option, that is very important. I simply say this by way of a message to the other On equalities, it is important, under the Equalities place. The previous Parliament proposed that the Procedure Act 2010, to demonstrate that certain people are under- Committee should allow the recommendations of Select represented in the decision-making process. In 2010, the Committees, when there has been a unanimous decision Equality and Human Rights Commission published its and report, to become material considerations as legislation first triennial review “How fair is Britain?”, which goes through this place. Were that the case now, I have identified the decline in opportunities for individuals to no doubt that it would have brought forward an opportunity contribute to decisions that affect their lives as a major to consider precisely what the Environmental Audit risk factor in moving towards a fairer society. I think Committee’s short, sharp inquiry, which is tagged with the Minister said that there is no need for concern about 287 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 288 this but that he will consider it further and ensure that The House divided: Ayes 297, Noes 232. equalities legislation is operable in these terms. If that is Division No. 276] [10 pm the case, I welcome it. AYES Greg Mulholland: I will try to keep my comments Adams, Nigel Dinenage, Caroline brief; realistically, with four minutes to go, I probably Afriyie, Adam Djanogly, Mr Jonathan cannot keep them any briefer. I know the age of my Aldous, Peter Dorries, Nadine right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Alexander, rh Danny Doyle-Price, Jackie Southwark (Simon Hughes), but I will not reveal it at Andrew, Stuart Drax, Richard this stage and just wish him a happy birthday. Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Duncan, rh Mr Alan I support a levelling of the planning process either by Bacon, Mr Richard Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain a third-party right of appeal or by the abolition of a Baker, Norman Dunne, Mr Philip developer’s right of appeal. Had the amendment in the Baker, Steve Ellis, Michael name of my right hon. Friend been one that would Baldry, Tony Ellison, Jane Baldwin, Harriett Ellwood, Mr Tobias work, I would certainly have supported it. I have just Barclay, Stephen Elphicke, Charlie been involved in a planning process in Adel in Leeds, Barker, Gregory Eustice, George where we had an absolutely farcical situation in which Baron, Mr John Evans, Graham David Wilson Homes, the developer, withdrew its scheme Barwell, Gavin Evans, Jonathan halfway through an appeal, but the system still allowed Bebb, Guto Evennett, Mr David it to reapply for outline planning permission, which it Beith, rh Sir Alan Fabricant, Michael then got. That was an absolute farce—an entirely shoddy, Bellingham, Mr Henry Featherstone, Lynne underhand and anti-localist way of doing things. I want Beresford, Sir Paul Field, Mr Mark to bring that to Ministers’ attention. Berry, Jake Foster, rh Mr Don On pubs, there has been a lot of talk about the Duck Bingham, Andrew Francois, rh Mr Mark Binley, Mr Brian Freeman, George and Drake—the many Duck and Drakes in the country. Birtwistle, Gordon Freer, Mike There is no finer place to hold a neighbourhood forum Blackman, Bob Fuller, Richard than in a pub. However, in terms of what this Bill does Blunt, Mr Crispin Gale, Mr Roger to strengthen communities’ hands in protecting pubs, Boles, Nick Garnier, Mr Edward the most appropriate pub name would probably be the Bone, Mr Peter Garnier, Mark Hot Air Balloon. As I have said to Ministers before, I Bottomley, Sir Peter Gauke, Mr David am afraid that there is very little in the Bill, as it stands, Bradley, Karen Gibb, Mr Nick to give communities a greater say. At the moment, Brady, Mr Graham Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl although there have been changes, it remains perfectly Brake, Tom Glen, John legal to demolish a free-standing pub without planning Brazier, Mr Julian Goldsmith, Zac permission. The Bill does nothing to change the fact Bridgen, Andrew Goodwill, Mr Robert that a pub can become a restaurant, a café, a betting Brine, Mr Steve Graham, Richard shop or a payday loans shop without communities Brokenshire, James Grant, Mrs Helen Bruce, Fiona Gray, Mr James having any say whatsoever. If the Bill is to do anything Bruce, rh Malcolm Grayling, rh Chris to strengthen the hands of local communities, there are Buckland, Mr Robert Green, Damian simple ways of doing that that do not prevent pubs Burley, Mr Aidan Greening, Justine from being developed when they are genuinely unviable. Burns, Conor Grieve, rh Mr Dominic On behalf of the all-party save the pub group, I have Burns, rh Mr Simon Griffiths, Andrew put this question to the Under-Secretary of State for Burrowes, Mr David Gummer, Ben Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member Burt, Lorely Gyimah, Mr Sam for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill), who is the Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert community pubs Minister, but I have not had an answer: Cairns, Alun Hames, Duncan do the Government, who claim to be a pro-pub Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hammond, rh Mr Philip Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hammond, Stephen Government, think it is right that profitable pubs that Carmichael, Neil Hancock, Matthew are wanted by their communities are being closed every Carswell, Mr Douglas Hands, Greg single day? If the Government do not believe that that is Cash, Mr William Harper, Mr Mark right—I do not believe that any hon. Member in this Chishti, Rehman Harrington, Richard House believes that it is—they must do something Chope, Mr Christopher Harris, Rebecca about it. I regret to say that at this stage, there is nothing Clappison, Mr James Hart, Simon in the Localism Bill that does that. I know that we will Clark, rh Greg Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan carry on this discussion, and I look forward to doing Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John that and taking up the Minister’s offer of a meeting. Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heald, Oliver However, at the moment, it is simply not good enough. Collins, Damian Heath, Mr David If he, the ministerial team and the Government believe Colvile, Oliver Heaton-Harris, Chris in pubs and in genuine localism, they must do more in Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hemming, John this Bill. Otherwise, it will be a real opportunity wasted. Crockart, Mike Henderson, Gordon Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian 10 pm Davey, Mr Edward Hoban, Mr Mark Davies, David T. C. Hollingbery, George Debate interrupted (Programme Order, this day). (Monmouth) Hollobone, Mr Philip The Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed Davies, Glyn Holloway, Mr Adam from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the Davies, Philip Hopkins, Kris clause be read a Second time. de Bois, Nick Howell, John 289 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 290

Huhne, rh Chris Patel, Priti Wallace, Mr Ben Williams, Roger Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walter, Mr Robert Williams, Stephen Hunter, Mark Pawsey, Mark Watkinson, Angela Williamson, Gavin Hurd, Mr Nick Penning, Mike Weatherley, Mike Wilson, Mr Rob Jackson, Mr Stewart Penrose, John Webb, Steve Wollaston, Dr Sarah James, Margot Percy, Andrew Wharton, James Wright, Simon Javid, Sajid Perry, Claire White, Chris Young, rh Sir George Jenkin, Mr Bernard Phillips, Stephen Whittaker, Craig Zahawi, Nadhim Johnson, Gareth Pickles, rh Mr Eric Whittingdale, Mr John Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Wiggin, Bill Tellers for the Ayes: Jones, Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel Willetts, rh Mr David Stephen Crabb and Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Williams, Mr Mark James Duddridge Kawczynski, Daniel Pritchard, Mark Kelly, Chris Pugh, John NOES Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Knight, rh Mr Greg Randall, rh Mr John Abbott, Ms Diane Dobson, rh Frank Kwarteng, Kwasi Reckless, Mark Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Laing, Mrs Eleanor Redwood, rh Mr John Alexander, Heidi Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Ali, Rushanara Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Latham, Pauline Reevell, Simon Austin, Ian Dowd, Jim Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan Bailey, Mr Adrian Doyle, Gemma Lee, Dr Phillip Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Bain, Mr William Dromey, Jack Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Hugh Balls, rh Ed Dugher, Michael Leslie, Charlotte Robertson, Mr Laurence Banks, Gordon Durkan, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rogerson, Dan Barron, rh Mr Kevin Eagle, Ms Angela Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Beckett, rh Margaret Eagle, Maria Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Begg, Dame Anne Edwards, Jonathan Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Bell, Sir Stuart Efford, Clive Lidington, rh Mr David Russell, Bob Benn, rh Hilary Elliott, Julie Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David Benton, Mr Joe Engel, Natascha Lopresti, Jack Sandys, Laura Berger, Luciana Esterson, Bill Lord, Jonathan Scott, Mr Lee Betts, Mr Clive Evans, Chris Loughton, Tim Selous, Andrew Blackman-Woods, Roberta Field, rh Mr Frank Luff, Peter Shapps, rh Grant Blears, rh Hazel Fitzpatrick, Jim Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok Blenkinsop, Tom Flello, Robert Macleod, Mary Shelbrooke, Alec Blomfield, Paul Flint, rh Caroline Main, Mrs Anne Simmonds, Mark Blunkett, rh Mr David Flynn, Paul May, rh Mrs Theresa Simpson, Mr Keith Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Francis, Dr Hywel McCartney, Jason Skidmore, Chris Brennan, Kevin Gapes, Mike McCartney, Karl Smith, Miss Chloe Brown, Lyn Gardiner, Barry McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Henry Brown, rh Mr Nicholas George, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Julian Brown, Mr Russell Gilmore, Sheila McPartland, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Bryant, Chris Glass, Pat McVey, Esther Soames, Nicholas Buck, Ms Karen Glindon, Mrs Mary Menzies, Mark Soubry, Anna Burnham, rh Andy Goggins, rh Paul Mercer, Patrick Spencer, Mr Mark Campbell, Mr Alan Goodman, Helen Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Campbell, Mr Gregory Greatrex, Tom Miller, Maria Stevenson, John Campbell, Mr Ronnie Green, Kate Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Caton, Martin Greenwood, Lilian Milton, Anne Stewart, Rory Chapman, Mrs Jenny Griffith, Nia Moore, rh Michael Streeter, Mr Gary Clark, Katy Gwynne, Andrew Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel Clwyd, rh Ann Hain, rh Mr Peter Morgan, Nicky Stuart, Mr Graham Coffey, Ann Hamilton, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Stunell, Andrew Cooper, Rosie Hamilton, Fabian Morris, David Swales, Ian Corbyn, Jeremy Hancock, Mr Mike Morris, James Swayne, Mr Desmond Crausby, Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David Mosley, Stephen Swinson, Jo Creagh, Mary Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mowat, David Swire, rh Mr Hugo Creasy, Stella Harris, Mr Tom Mundell, rh David Syms, Mr Robert Cruddas, Jon Havard, Mr Dai Munt, Tessa Teather, Sarah Cryer, John Healey, rh John Murray, Sheryll Thurso, John Cunningham, Alex Hendrick, Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Timpson, Mr Edward Cunningham, Mr Jim Hepburn, Mr Stephen Neill, Robert Tomlinson, Justin Cunningham, Tony Heyes, David Newmark, Mr Brooks Tredinnick, David Curran, Margaret Hillier, Meg Newton, Sarah Truss, Elizabeth Dakin, Nic Hodge, rh Margaret Nokes, Caroline Turner, Mr Andrew Danczuk, Simon Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Norman, Jesse Tyrie, Mr Andrew David, Mr Wayne Hoey, Kate Nuttall, Mr David Uppal, Paul Davidson, Mr Ian Hood, Mr Jim Offord, Mr Matthew Vara, Mr Shailesh Davies, Geraint Hopkins, Kelvin Ollerenshaw, Eric Vickers, Martin De Piero, Gloria Horwood, Martin Ottaway, Richard Walker, Mr Charles Denham, rh Mr John Howarth, rh Mr George Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Robin Dobbin, Jim Hunt, Tristram 291 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 292

Irranca-Davies, Huw Perkins, Toby New Clause 29 James, Mrs Siân C. Phillipson, Bridget Jamieson, Cathy Pound, Stephen RETAIL DIVERSITY SCHEME Jarvis, Dan Qureshi, Yasmin ‘(1) In Part 2 of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Johnson, Diana Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Act 2004 after section 15 insert— Jones, Helen Reed, Mr Jamie 15A (1) The local planning authority must prepare and Jones, Mr Kevan Reeves, Rachel maintain a scheme to be known as their retail diversity scheme. Jones, Susan Elan Reynolds, Emma Jowell, rh Tessa Reynolds, Jonathan (2) The retail diversity scheme must form part of the Local Joyce, Eric Riordan, Mrs Linda Development Scheme within two years of the Local Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robertson, John Development Scheme being published or within two years of this Act being passed, whichever is later. Keeley, Barbara Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Kendall, Liz Rotheram, Steve (3) The scheme must— Khan, rh Sadiq Roy, Mr Frank (a) define a network and hierarchy of retail centres in the Lammy, rh Mr David Roy, Lindsay local authority area, Lavery, Ian Ruane, Chris (b) assess the need for development in retail centres, Lazarowicz, Mark Ruddock, rh Joan (c) identify sites for development based on the sequential Leslie, Chris Sanders, Mr Adrian approach, and Lewis, Mr Ivan Sarwar, Anas (d) promote retail diversity. Lloyd, Tony Seabeck, Alison (4) In this section— Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sharma, Mr Virendra Love, Mr Andrew Sheerman, Mr Barry (a) ‘retail diversity’ means a mix of retail provision that Lucas, Caroline Sheridan, Jim meets the requirements of the local catchment area in Lucas, Ian Shuker, Gavin terms of range and quality of comparison and convenience retail businesses; Mactaggart, Fiona Simpson, David Mahmood, Shabana Skinner, Mr Dennis (b) ‘sequential approach’ means that local planning Mann, John Smith, rh Mr Andrew authorities must identify sites that are suitable, available and viable for development in the following Marsden, Mr Gordon Smith, Angela order— McCabe, Steve Smith, Nick (i) locations in appropriate existing centres; McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Owen (ii) edge of centre locations, with preference given to McClymont, Gregg Spellar, rh Mr John McCrea, Dr William sites that are or will be well connected to existing Straw, rh Mr Jack retail centres; McDonagh, Siobhain Stringer, Graham McDonnell, John (iii) out of centre sites with preference given to sites Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry well served by a choice of transport and are McFadden, rh Mr Pat Tami, Mark closest to an existing centre. McGovern, Alison Thomas, Mr Gareth McGovern, Jim (5) The Secretary of State may direct the local planning Thornberry, Emily McGuire, rh Mrs Anne authority to make such amendments to the scheme as he thinks Timms, rh Stephen McKechin, Ann appropriate. Trickett, Jon McKinnell, Catherine (6) Such a direction must contain the Secretary of State’s Meacher, rh Mr Michael Turner, Karl reasons for giving it. Mearns, Ian Twigg, Derek (7) The local planning authority must consult with the local Michael, rh Alun Umunna, Mr Chuka community in developing the scheme. Vaz, Valerie Miller, Andrew (8) The local community as defined under subsection (7) must Mitchell, Austin Walley, Joan include— Watts, Mr Dave Moon, Mrs Madeleine (a) a parish council or parish councils authorised to act in Morden, Jessica Whitehead, Dr Alan relation to the neighbourhood area or areas to which Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Wicks, rh Malcolm the retail diversity scheme relates subject to section Morris, Grahame M. Williams, Hywel 61F of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, (Easington) Williamson, Chris (b) a ‘qualifying body’ authorised to act in relation to the Mudie, Mr George Wilson, Phil neighbourhood area or areas to which the retail Munn, Meg Wilson, Sammy diversity scheme relates subject to section 61F of the Murphy, rh Mr Jim Winnick, Mr David Town and Country Planning Act 1990, and Murphy, rh Paul Winterton, rh Ms Rosie (c) any other local person at the discretion of the local Murray, Ian Woodcock, John planning authority. Nandy, Lisa Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Nash, Pamela (9) Where a retail planning application is submitted and there Wright, David is no retail diversity scheme in place the applicant must provide a O’Donnell, Fiona Wright, Mr Iain statement to the local planning authority that sets out how the Onwurah, Chi development impacts on the criteria identified in subsection (3); Osborne, Sandra Tellers for the Noes: and the local planning authority must consult the local Paisley, Ian Mr David Anderson and community as defined in subsection (8) before coming to a Pearce, Teresa Graham Jones decision on the application.”’.—(Jack Dromey.) Brought up. Question accordingly agreed to. Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill. New clause 15 read a Second time, and added to the The House divided: Ayes 224, Noes 308. Bill. Division No. 277] [10.13 pm

The Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary for AYES the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time Abbott, Ms Diane Alexander, Heidi (Standing Order No. 83E). Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Ali, Rushanara 293 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 294

Austin, Ian Gapes, Mike Mearns, Ian Shannon, Jim Bailey, Mr Adrian Gardiner, Barry Michael, rh Alun Sharma, Mr Virendra Bain, Mr William George, Andrew Miller, Andrew Sheerman, Mr Barry Balls, rh Ed Gilmore, Sheila Mitchell, Austin Sheridan, Jim Banks, Gordon Glass, Pat Moon, Mrs Madeleine Shuker, Gavin Barron, rh Mr Kevin Glindon, Mrs Mary Morden, Jessica Skinner, Mr Dennis Beckett, rh Margaret Goggins, rh Paul Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, rh Mr Andrew Begg, Dame Anne Goldsmith, Zac Morris, Grahame M. Smith, Angela Bell, Sir Stuart Goodman, Helen (Easington) Smith, Nick Benn, rh Hilary Greatrex, Tom Mudie, Mr George Smith, Owen Benton, Mr Joe Green, Kate Mulholland, Greg Spellar, rh Mr John Berger, Luciana Greenwood, Lilian Munn, Meg Straw, rh Mr Jack Betts, Mr Clive Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Mr Jim Stringer, Graham Blackman-Woods, Roberta Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Paul Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Blears, rh Hazel Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian Tami, Mark Blenkinsop, Tom Hamilton, Mr David Nandy, Lisa Thomas, Mr Gareth Blomfield, Paul Hamilton, Fabian Nash, Pamela Thornberry, Emily Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Timms, rh Stephen Brennan, Kevin Harman, rh Ms Harriet Onwurah, Chi Brown, Lyn Harris, Mr Tom Osborne, Sandra Trickett, Jon Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Havard, Mr Dai Pearce, Teresa Turner, Karl Brown, Mr Russell Healey, rh John Perkins, Toby Twigg, Derek Buck, Ms Karen Hendrick, Mark Phillipson, Bridget Umunna, Mr Chuka Burnham, rh Andy Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pound, Stephen Vaz, Valerie Campbell, Mr Alan Heyes, David Qureshi, Yasmin Walley, Joan Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hillier, Meg Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Watts, Mr Dave Caton, Martin Hodge, rh Margaret Reed, Mr Jamie Whitehead, Dr Alan Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reeves, Rachel Wicks, rh Malcolm Clark, Katy Hoey, Kate Reynolds, Emma Williams, Hywel Clwyd, rh Ann Hood, Mr Jim Reynolds, Jonathan Williamson, Chris Coffey, Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Riordan, Mrs Linda Wilson, Phil Connarty, Michael Horwood, Martin Robertson, John Winnick, Mr David Cooper, Rosie Howarth, rh Mr George Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Corbyn, Jeremy Hunt, Tristram Rotheram, Steve Woodcock, John Crausby, Mr David Irranca-Davies, Huw Roy, Mr Frank Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Creagh, Mary James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Lindsay Wright, David Creasy, Stella Jamieson, Cathy Ruane, Chris Wright, Mr Iain Cruddas, Jon Jarvis, Dan Ruddock, rh Joan Cryer, John Johnson, Diana Sanders, Mr Adrian Tellers for the Ayes: Cunningham, Alex Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Mr David Anderson and Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Mr Kevan Seabeck, Alison Graham Jones Cunningham, Tony Jones, Susan Elan Curran, Margaret Jowell, rh Tessa NOES Dakin, Nic Joyce, Eric Danczuk, Simon Keeley, Barbara Adams, Nigel Brady, Mr Graham David, Mr Wayne Kendall, Liz Afriyie, Adam Brake, Tom Davidson, Mr Ian Lammy, rh Mr David Aldous, Peter Brazier, Mr Julian Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Alexander, rh Danny Bridgen, Andrew De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Andrew, Stuart Brine, Mr Steve Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brokenshire, James Dobbin, Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan Bacon, Mr Richard Brooke, Annette Dobson, rh Frank Lloyd, Tony Baker, Norman Bruce, Fiona Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Baker, Steve Bruce, rh Malcolm Dowd, Jim Love, Mr Andrew Baldry, Tony Buckland, Mr Robert Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Caroline Baldwin, Harriett Burley, Mr Aidan Dromey, Jack Lucas, Ian Barclay, Stephen Burns, Conor Dugher, Michael Mactaggart, Fiona Baron, Mr John Burns, rh Mr Simon Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Shabana Barwell, Gavin Burrowes, Mr David Eagle, Ms Angela Mann, John Bebb, Guto Byles, Dan Eagle, Maria Marsden, Mr Gordon Beith, rh Sir Alan Cairns, Alun Edwards, Jonathan McCabe, Steve Bellingham, Mr Henry Campbell, Mr Gregory Efford, Clive McCarthy, Kerry Beresford, Sir Paul Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Elliott, Julie McClymont, Gregg Berry, Jake Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Engel, Natascha McDonagh, Siobhain Bingham, Andrew Carmichael, Neil Esterson, Bill McDonnell, John Binley, Mr Brian Carswell, Mr Douglas Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Birtwistle, Gordon Cash, Mr William Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Alison Blackman, Bob Chishti, Rehman Fitzpatrick, Jim McGovern, Jim Blunt, Mr Crispin Chope, Mr Christopher Flello, Robert McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Boles, Nick Clappison, Mr James Flint, rh Caroline McKechin, Ann Bone, Mr Peter Clark, rh Greg Flynn, Paul McKinnell, Catherine Bottomley, Sir Peter Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Francis, Dr Hywel Meacher, rh Mr Michael Bradley, Karen Coffey, Dr Thérèse 295 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 296

Collins, Damian Heald, Oliver Mundell, rh David Smith, Julian Colvile, Oliver Heath, Mr David Munt, Tessa Smith, Sir Robert Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Murray, Sheryll Soames, Nicholas Crabb, Stephen Hemming, John Murrison, Dr Andrew Soubry, Anna Crockart, Mike Henderson, Gordon Neill, Robert Spencer, Mr Mark Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian Newmark, Mr Brooks Stephenson, Andrew Davey, Mr Edward Hoban, Mr Mark Newton, Sarah Stevenson, John Davies, David T. C. Hollingbery, George Nokes, Caroline Stewart, Bob (Monmouth) Hollobone, Mr Philip Norman, Jesse Stewart, Rory Davies, Glyn Holloway, Mr Adam Nuttall, Mr David Streeter, Mr Gary Davies, Philip Hopkins, Kris Offord, Mr Matthew Stride, Mel de Bois, Nick Howell, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Stuart, Mr Graham Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, rh Simon Ottaway, Richard Stunell, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huhne, rh Chris Paisley, Ian Swales, Ian Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Parish, Neil Swayne, Mr Desmond Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Huppert, Dr Julian Patel, Priti Swinson, Jo Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hurd, Mr Nick Paterson, rh Mr Owen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Pawsey, Mark Syms, Mr Robert Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Penning, Mike Teather, Sarah Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Penrose, John Thurso, John Duddridge, James Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew Timpson, Mr Edward Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Tomlinson, Justin Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Tredinnick, David Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Truss, Elizabeth Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Turner, Mr Andrew Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Daniel Tyrie, Mr Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Uppal, Paul Elphicke, Charlie Kirby, Simon Pritchard, Mark Vickers, Martin Eustice, George Knight, rh Mr Greg Pugh, John Walker, Mr Charles Evans, Graham Kwarteng, Kwasi Raab, Mr Dominic Walker, Mr Robin Evans, Jonathan Laing, Mrs Eleanor Randall, rh Mr John Wallace, Mr Ben Evennett, Mr David Lancaster, Mark Reckless, Mark Walter, Mr Robert Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline Redwood, rh Mr John Ward, Mr David Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Jessica Rees-Mogg, Jacob Watkinson, Angela Field, Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Reevell, Simon Foster, rh Mr Don Lefroy, Jeremy Reid, Mr Alan Weatherley, Mike Francois, rh Mr Mark Leslie, Charlotte Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Webb, Steve Freeman, George Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, Hugh Wharton, James Freer, Mike Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Mr Laurence White, Chris Fuller, Richard Lewis, Dr Julian Rogerson, Dan Whittaker, Craig Gale, Mr Roger Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rosindell, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Garnier, Mr Edward Lidington, rh Mr David Rudd, Amber Wiggin, Bill Garnier, Mark Lloyd, Stephen Ruffley, Mr David Willetts, rh Mr David Gauke, Mr David Lopresti, Jack Russell, Bob Williams, Mr Mark Gibb, Mr Nick Lord, Jonathan Rutley, David Williams, Roger Gilbert, Stephen Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura Williams, Stephen Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Luff, Peter Scott, Mr Lee Williamson, Gavin Glen, John Lumley, Karen Selous, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Shapps, rh Grant Wilson, Sammy Graham, Richard Main, Mrs Anne Sharma, Alok Wollaston, Dr Sarah Grant, Mrs Helen May, rh Mrs Theresa Shelbrooke, Alec Wright, Simon Gray, Mr James McCartney, Jason Simmonds, Mark Young, rh Sir George Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Karl Simpson, David Zahawi, Nadhim Green, Damian McCrea, Dr William Simpson, Mr Keith Greening, Justine McIntosh, Miss Anne Skidmore, Chris Tellers for the Noes: Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Miss Chloe Mr Shailesh Vara and Griffiths, Andrew McPartland, Stephen Smith, Henry Mark Hunter Gummer, Ben McVey, Esther Gyimah, Mr Sam Menzies, Mark Question accordingly negatived. Halfon, Robert Mercer, Patrick Hames, Duncan Metcalfe, Stephen New Clause 31 Hammond, rh Mr Philip Miller, Maria Hammond, Stephen Mills, Nigel CHANGE OF USE CLASS FOR BETTING OFFICES Hancock, Matthew Milton, Anne ‘The Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Hancock, Mr Mike Moore, rh Michael Order 1987 is amended as follows— Hands, Greg Mordaunt, Penny Harper, Mr Mark Morgan, Nicky (1) In article 3(6) (exclusion from use classes), at end Harrington, Richard Morris, Anne Marie add— Harris, Rebecca Morris, David “(n) as a betting office”. Hart, Simon Morris, James (2) In Part A (Use Classes) of the Schedule to the Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mosley, Stephen principal Order, in Class A2(c) omit “(including use as a Hayes, Mr John Mowat, David betting office)”. 297 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 298

(3) “Betting office” means premises, other than a Lammy, rh Mr David Reeves, Rachel track within the meaning of the Gambling Act 2005, in Lavery, Ian Reynolds, Emma respect of which a betting premises licence under Part 8 Lazarowicz, Mark Reynolds, Jonathan of that Act has effect.’—(Mr Lammy.) Leslie, Chris Riordan, Mrs Linda Lewis, Mr Ivan Robertson, John Brought up. Lloyd, Tony Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Rotheram, Steve Love, Mr Andrew Roy, Mr Frank The House divided: Ayes 221, Noes 316. Lucas, Caroline Roy, Lindsay Division No. 278] [10.26 pm Lucas, Ian Ruane, Chris Mactaggart, Fiona Ruddock, rh Joan AYES Mahmood, Shabana Sarwar, Anas Mann, John Seabeck, Alison Abbott, Ms Diane Dromey, Jack Marsden, Mr Gordon Shannon, Jim Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dugher, Michael McCabe, Steve Sharma, Mr Virendra Alexander, Heidi Durkan, Mark McCarthy, Kerry Sheridan, Jim Ali, Rushanara Eagle, Ms Angela McClymont, Gregg Shuker, Gavin Austin, Ian Eagle, Maria McCrea, Dr William Simpson, David Bailey, Mr Adrian Edwards, Jonathan McDonagh, Siobhain Skinner, Mr Dennis Bain, Mr William Efford, Clive McDonnell, John Smith, rh Mr Andrew Balls, rh Ed Elliott, Julie McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, Angela Banks, Gordon Esterson, Bill McGovern, Alison Smith, Nick Barron, rh Mr Kevin Evans, Chris McGovern, Jim Smith, Owen Beckett, rh Margaret Field, rh Mr Frank McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Spellar, rh Mr John Begg, Dame Anne Fitzpatrick, Jim McKechin, Ann Straw, rh Mr Jack Bell, Sir Stuart Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine Stringer, Graham Benn, rh Hilary Flint, rh Caroline Meacher, rh Mr Michael Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Benton, Mr Joe Flynn, Paul Mearns, Ian Tami, Mark Berger, Luciana Francis, Dr Hywel Michael, rh Alun Thomas, Mr Gareth Betts, Mr Clive Gapes, Mike Miller, Andrew Thornberry, Emily Blackman-Woods, Roberta Gardiner, Barry Mitchell, Austin Timms, rh Stephen Blenkinsop, Tom Gilmore, Sheila Moon, Mrs Madeleine Trickett, Jon Blomfield, Paul Glass, Pat Morden, Jessica Turner, Karl Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Twigg, Derek Brennan, Kevin Goggins, rh Paul Morris, Grahame M. Umunna, Mr Chuka Brown, Lyn Goodman, Helen (Easington) Vaz, Valerie Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Greatrex, Tom Mudie, Mr George Walley, Joan Brown, Mr Russell Green, Kate Munn, Meg Watts, Mr Dave Buck, Ms Karen Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Mr Jim Whitehead, Dr Alan Burnham, rh Andy Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Paul Wicks, rh Malcolm Campbell, Mr Alan Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Williams, Hywel Campbell, Mr Gregory Hain, rh Mr Peter Nandy, Lisa Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Wilson, Phil Caton, Martin Hamilton, Fabian O’Donnell, Fiona Wilson, Sammy Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hanson, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Winnick, Mr David Clark, Katy Harman, rh Ms Harriet Osborne, Sandra Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Coffey, Ann Harris, Mr Tom Paisley, Ian Woodcock, John Connarty, Michael Havard, Mr Dai Pearce, Teresa Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Cooper, Rosie Healey, rh John Perkins, Toby Wright, David Corbyn, Jeremy Hendrick, Mark Phillipson, Bridget Wright, Mr Iain Crausby, Mr David Hepburn, Mr Stephen Pound, Stephen Creagh, Mary Heyes, David Qureshi, Yasmin Tellers for the Ayes: Creasy, Stella Hillier, Meg Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Mr David Anderson and Cruddas, Jon Hodge, rh Margaret Reed, Mr Jamie Graham Jones Cryer, John Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Cunningham, Alex Hoey, Kate Cunningham, Mr Jim Hood, Mr Jim NOES Cunningham, Tony Hopkins, Kelvin Adams, Nigel Beith, rh Sir Alan Curran, Margaret Howarth, rh Mr George Afriyie, Adam Bellingham, Mr Henry Dakin, Nic Hunt, Tristram Aldous, Peter Beresford, Sir Paul Danczuk, Simon Irranca-Davies, Huw Alexander, rh Danny Berry, Jake David, Mr Wayne James, Mrs Siân C. Andrew, Stuart Bingham, Andrew Davidson, Mr Ian Jamieson, Cathy Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Binley, Mr Brian Davies, Geraint Jarvis, Dan Bacon, Mr Richard Birtwistle, Gordon De Piero, Gloria Johnson, Diana Baker, Norman Blackman, Bob Dobbin, Jim Jones, Helen Baker, Steve Blunt, Mr Crispin Dobson, rh Frank Jones, Mr Kevan Baldry, Tony Boles, Nick Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Jones, Susan Elan Baldwin, Harriett Bone, Mr Peter Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Jowell, rh Tessa Barclay, Stephen Bottomley, Sir Peter Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Joyce, Eric Baron, Mr John Bradley, Karen Dowd, Jim Keeley, Barbara Barwell, Gavin Brady, Mr Graham Doyle, Gemma Kendall, Liz Bebb, Guto Brake, Tom 299 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 300

Brazier, Mr Julian Goodwill, Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Rutley, David Bridgen, Andrew Graham, Richard Luff, Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Brine, Mr Steve Grant, Mrs Helen Lumley, Karen Sandys, Laura Brokenshire, James Gray, Mr James Macleod, Mary Scott, Mr Lee Brooke, Annette Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne Selous, Andrew Bruce, Fiona Green, Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Shapps, rh Grant Bruce, rh Malcolm Greening, Justine McCartney, Jason Sharma, Alok Buckland, Mr Robert Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Shelbrooke, Alec Burley, Mr Aidan Griffiths, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Simmonds, Mark Burns, Conor Gummer, Ben McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Simpson, Mr Keith Burns, rh Mr Simon Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Skidmore, Chris Burrowes, Mr David Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Smith, Miss Chloe Burt, Lorely Hames, Duncan Menzies, Mark Smith, Henry Byles, Dan Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mercer, Patrick Smith, Julian Cairns, Alun Hammond, Stephen Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hancock, Matthew Miller, Maria Soubry, Anna Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hancock, Mr Mike Mills, Nigel Spencer, Mr Mark Carmichael, Neil Hands, Greg Milton, Anne Stephenson, Andrew Carswell, Mr Douglas Harper, Mr Mark Moore, rh Michael Stevenson, John Cash, Mr William Harrington, Richard Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Bob Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Rory Chope, Mr Christopher Hart, Simon Morris, Anne Marie Streeter, Mr Gary Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, David Stride, Mel Clark, rh Greg Hayes, Mr John Morris, James Stuart, Mr Graham Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heald, Oliver Mosley, Stephen Stunell, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Swales, Ian Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris Mulholland, Greg Swayne, Mr Desmond Colvile, Oliver Hemming, John Mundell, rh David Swinson, Jo Cox, Mr Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Murray, Sheryll Swire, rh Mr Hugo Crockart, Mike Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Crouch, Tracey Hoban, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Teather, Sarah Davey, Mr Edward Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Thurso, John Davies, David T. C. Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Timpson, Mr Edward (Monmouth) Holloway, Mr Adam Nokes, Caroline Tomlinson, Justin Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Tredinnick, David Davies, Philip Horwood, Martin Nuttall, Mr David Truss, Elizabeth de Bois, Nick Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Turner, Mr Andrew Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Tyrie, Mr Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huhne, rh Chris Ottaway, Richard Uppal, Paul Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Parish, Neil Vara, Mr Shailesh Dorries, Nadine Hunter, Mark Patel, Priti Vickers, Martin Doyle-Price, Jackie Huppert, Dr Julian Paterson, rh Mr Owen Walker, Mr Charles Drax, Richard Hurd, Mr Nick Pawsey, Mark Walker, Mr Robin Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jackson, Mr Stewart Penning, Mike Wallace, Mr Ben Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain James, Margot Penrose, John Walter, Mr Robert Dunne, Mr Philip Javid, Sajid Percy, Andrew Ward, Mr David Ellis, Michael Jenkin, Mr Bernard Perry, Claire Ellison, Jane Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Watkinson, Angela Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Pickles, rh Mr Eric Weatherley, Mike Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr David Pincher, Christopher Webb, Steve Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus Poulter, Dr Daniel Wharton, James Evans, Graham Kawczynski, Daniel Prisk, Mr Mark White, Chris Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris Pritchard, Mark Whittaker, Craig Evennett, Mr David Kirby, Simon Pugh, John Whittingdale, Mr John Fabricant, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Raab, Mr Dominic Wiggin, Bill Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Randall, rh Mr John Willetts, rh Mr David Field, Mr Mark Laing, Mrs Eleanor Reckless, Mark Williams, Mr Mark Foster, rh Mr Don Lamb, Norman Redwood, rh Mr John Williams, Roger Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williams, Stephen Freeman, George Latham, Pauline Reevell, Simon Williamson, Gavin Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan Wilson, Mr Rob Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Gale, Mr Roger Lefroy, Jeremy Robertson, Hugh Wright, Simon Robertson, Mr Laurence Garnier, Mr Edward Leslie, Charlotte Young, rh Sir George Rogerson, Dan Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Zahawi, Nadhim Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Tellers for the Noes: Ruffley, Mr David Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Stephen Crabb and Russell, Bob James Duddridge Gilbert, Stephen Lidington, rh Mr David Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lloyd, Stephen Glen, John Lopresti, Jack Question accordingly negatived. Goldsmith, Zac Lord, Jonathan 301 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 302

Clause 90 (a) a local planning authority who is also a member of a Local Enterprise Partnership as approved by the Secretary of State; and DUTYTOCO-OPERATE IN RELATION TO PLANNING OF (b) every other person within subsection (1). SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT (3B) The preparation of Joint Infrastructure Planning Amendments made: 144, page 61, line 4, after ‘authority,’, Guidance within subsection (3) includes in particular— insert— (a) the collection of evidence on issues defined in ‘(aa) a county council in England that is not a local subsection (3C); planning authority,’. (b) the preparation of policy guidance in relation to issues Amendment 145, page 61, line 7, after ‘(a)’, insert ‘, defined in subsection (3C); and (aa)’. (c) any other activities that support joint infrastructure Amendment 146, page 61, line 8, after ‘(b)’, insert ‘or planning. subsection (7)’. (3C) For the purpose of subsection (3B) the issues to be Amendment 147, page 61, line 11, after ‘person’, addressed include— insert ‘—(a) ’. (a) housing needs; (b) climate mitigation and adaptation and in particular Amendment 148, page 61, line 13, at end insert flood risk; ‘, and (c) economic development including retail needs; (b) to have regard to activities of a person within (d) energy needs and capacity; subsection (7) so far as they are relevant to activities (e) biodiversity; within subsection (3).’. (f) natural resource use including water management; and Amendment 149, page 61, line 16, leave out from (g) transport. ‘documents,’ to end of line 17 and insert— (3D) The person or bodies defined in subsection (1) must ‘(c) the preparation of marine plans under the Marine and exercise the function of Joint Infrastructure Planning with the Coastal Access Act 2009 for the English inshore aim of achieving sustainable development and must act under region, the English offshore region or any part of guidance, including as to the meaning of sustainable either of those regions, development, as set out in the UK Sustainable Development (d) activities that can reasonably be considered to prepare Strategy.’.—(Jack Dromey.) the way for activities within any of paragraphs (a) to Question put, That the amendment be made. (c) that are, or could be, contemplated, and (e) activities that support activities within any of The House divided: Ayes 212, Noes 313. paragraphs (a) to (c),’. Division No. 279] [10.38 pm Amendment 150, page 61, line 18, leave out from ‘to’ to end of line 20 and insert ‘a strategic matter. AYES (3A) For the purposes of subsection (3), each of the following Abbott, Ms Diane Corbyn, Jeremy is a “strategic matter”— Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Crausby, Mr David (a) sustainable development or use of land that has or Alexander, Heidi Creagh, Mary would have a significant impact on at least two Ali, Rushanara Creasy, Stella planning areas, including (in particular) sustainable Austin, Ian Cruddas, Jon development or use of land for or in connection with Bailey, Mr Adrian Cryer, John infrastructure that is strategic and has or would have Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Alex a significant impact on at least two planning areas, Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Mr Jim and Banks, Gordon Cunningham, Tony (b) sustainable development or use of land in a two-tier Barron, rh Mr Kevin Curran, Margaret area if the development or use— Beckett, rh Margaret Dakin, Nic (i) is a county matter, or Begg, Dame Anne Danczuk, Simon (ii) has or would have a significant impact on a county Bell, Sir Stuart David, Mr Wayne matter. Benn, rh Hilary Davidson, Mr Ian Benton, Mr Joe Davies, Geraint (3B) In subsection (3A)— Berger, Luciana De Piero, Gloria “county matter” has the meaning given by paragraph 1 Betts, Mr Clive Dobbin, Jim of Schedule 1 to the principal Act (ignoring Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dobson, rh Frank sub-paragraph 1(1)(i)), Blenkinsop, Tom Donohoe, Mr Brian H. “planning area” means— Blomfield, Paul Dowd, Jim (a) the area of— Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Doyle, Gemma (b) a National Park, Brennan, Kevin Dromey, Jack (c) the Broads, Brown, Lyn Dugher, Michael Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Durkan, Mark (d) the English inshore region, or Brown, Mr Russell Eagle, Ms Angela (e) the English offshore region, and Bryant, Chris Eagle, Maria “two-tier area” means an area— Buck, Ms Karen Edwards, Jonathan (a) for which there is a county council and a district Burnham, rh Andy Efford, Clive council, but Campbell, Mr Alan Elliott, Julie (b) which is not in a National Park.’.—(Greg Campbell, Mr Ronnie Esterson, Bill Clark.) Caton, Martin Evans, Chris Chapman, Mrs Jenny Field, rh Mr Frank Amendment proposed: 298, page 61, line 20, at end Clark, Katy Fitzpatrick, Jim insert— Coffey, Ann Flello, Robert ‘(3A) The preparation of Joint Infrastructure Planning Connarty, Michael Flint, rh Caroline Guidance within subsection (3) must involve— Cooper, Rosie Flynn, Paul 303 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 304

Francis, Dr Hywel Moon, Mrs Madeleine NOES Gapes, Mike Morden, Jessica Adams, Nigel Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Gardiner, Barry Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Afriyie, Adam Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Gilmore, Sheila Morris, Grahame M. Aldous, Peter Dorries, Nadine Glass, Pat (Easington) Alexander, rh Danny Doyle-Price, Jackie Glindon, Mrs Mary Mudie, Mr George Andrew, Stuart Drax, Richard Goggins, rh Paul Munn, Meg Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Duddridge, James Goodman, Helen Murphy, rh Mr Jim Bacon, Mr Richard Duncan, rh Mr Alan Greatrex, Tom Murphy, rh Paul Baker, Norman Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Green, Kate Murray, Ian Baker, Steve Dunne, Mr Philip Greenwood, Lilian Nandy, Lisa Baldry, Tony Ellis, Michael Griffith, Nia Nash, Pamela Baldwin, Harriett Ellison, Jane Gwynne, Andrew O’Donnell, Fiona Barclay, Stephen Ellwood, Mr Tobias Hain, rh Mr Peter Onwurah, Chi Baron, Mr John Elphicke, Charlie Hamilton, Mr David Osborne, Sandra Barwell, Gavin Eustice, George Hamilton, Fabian Pearce, Teresa Bebb, Guto Evans, Graham Hanson, rh Mr David Perkins, Toby Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Jonathan Harman, rh Ms Harriet Phillipson, Bridget Bellingham, Mr Henry Evennett, Mr David Harris, Mr Tom Pound, Stephen Beresford, Sir Paul Fabricant, Michael Havard, Mr Dai Qureshi, Yasmin Berry, Jake Featherstone, Lynne Healey, rh John Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bingham, Andrew Field, Mr Mark Hendrick, Mark Reed, Mr Jamie Binley, Mr Brian Foster, rh Mr Don Hepburn, Mr Stephen Reeves, Rachel Birtwistle, Gordon Francois, rh Mr Mark Heyes, David Reynolds, Emma Blackman, Bob Freeman, George Hillier, Meg Reynolds, Jonathan Blunt, Mr Crispin Freer, Mike Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Riordan, Mrs Linda Boles, Nick Fuller, Richard Hoey, Kate Robertson, John Bone, Mr Peter Gale, Mr Roger Hood, Mr Jim Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bottomley, Sir Peter Garnier, Mr Edward Howarth, rh Mr George Rotheram, Steve Bradley, Karen Garnier, Mark Hunt, Tristram Roy, Mr Frank Brady, Mr Graham Gauke, Mr David Irranca-Davies, Huw Roy, Lindsay Brazier, Mr Julian George, Andrew James, Mrs Siân C. Ruane, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Gibb, Mr Nick Jamieson, Cathy Ruddock, rh Joan Brine, Mr Steve Gilbert, Stephen Jarvis, Dan Sarwar, Anas Brokenshire, James Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Johnson, Diana Seabeck, Alison Brooke, Annette Glen, John Jones, Helen Sharma, Mr Virendra Bruce, Fiona Goldsmith, Zac Jones, Mr Kevan Sheridan, Jim Bruce, rh Malcolm Goodwill, Mr Robert Jones, Susan Elan Shuker, Gavin Buckland, Mr Robert Graham, Richard Jowell, rh Tessa Skinner, Mr Dennis Burley, Mr Aidan Grant, Mrs Helen Joyce, Eric Smith, rh Mr Andrew Burns, Conor Gray, Mr James Keeley, Barbara Smith, Angela Burns, rh Mr Simon Grayling, rh Chris Kendall, Liz Smith, Nick Burrowes, Mr David Green, Damian Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Owen Burt, Lorely Greening, Justine Lavery, Ian Spellar, rh Mr John Byles, Dan Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lazarowicz, Mark Straw, rh Mr Jack Cairns, Alun Griffiths, Andrew Leslie, Chris Stringer, Graham Campbell, Mr Gregory Gummer, Ben Lewis, Mr Ivan Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gyimah, Mr Sam Lloyd, Tony Tami, Mark Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Halfon, Robert Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Thomas, Mr Gareth Carmichael, Neil Hames, Duncan Love, Mr Andrew Thornberry, Emily Carswell, Mr Douglas Hammond, rh Mr Philip Lucas, Caroline Timms, rh Stephen Cash, Mr William Hammond, Stephen Lucas, Ian Trickett, Jon Chishti, Rehman Hancock, Matthew Mactaggart, Fiona Turner, Karl Chope, Mr Christopher Hancock, Mr Mike Mahmood, Shabana Twigg, Derek Clappison, Mr James Hands, Greg Mann, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Clark, rh Greg Harper, Mr Mark Marsden, Mr Gordon Vaz, Valerie Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harrington, Richard McCabe, Steve Walley, Joan Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harris, Rebecca McCarthy, Kerry Watts, Mr Dave Collins, Damian Hart, Simon McClymont, Gregg Whitehead, Dr Alan Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan McDonagh, Siobhain Wicks, rh Malcolm Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John McDonnell, John Williams, Hywel Crabb, Stephen Heald, Oliver McFadden, rh Mr Pat Williamson, Chris Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David McGovern, Alison Wilson, Phil Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris McGovern, Jim Winnick, Mr David Davey, Mr Edward Hemming, John McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon McKechin, Ann Woodcock, John (Monmouth) Hinds, Damian McKinnell, Catherine Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Davies, Glyn Hoban, Mr Mark Meacher, rh Mr Michael Wright, David Davies, Philip Hollingbery, George Mearns, Ian Wright, Mr Iain de Bois, Nick Hollobone, Mr Philip Michael, rh Alun Tellers for the Ayes: Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Mr Adam Miller, Andrew Mr David Anderson and Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Mitchell, Austin Graham Jones Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Horwood, Martin 305 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 306

Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Turner, Mr Andrew Wiggin, Bill Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Tyrie, Mr Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Huhne, rh Chris Ottaway, Richard Uppal, Paul Williams, Mr Mark Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paisley, Ian Vickers, Martin Williams, Roger Huppert, Dr Julian Parish, Neil Walker, Mr Charles Williams, Stephen Hurd, Mr Nick Patel, Priti Walker, Mr Robin Williamson, Gavin Jackson, Mr Stewart Paterson, rh Mr Owen Wallace, Mr Ben Wilson, Mr Rob James, Margot Pawsey, Mark Walter, Mr Robert Wilson, Sammy Javid, Sajid Penning, Mike Ward, Mr David Wollaston, Dr Sarah Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penrose, John Watkinson, Angela Wright, Simon Johnson, Gareth Percy, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Young, rh Sir George Jones, Andrew Perry, Claire Webb, Steve Zahawi, Nadhim Jones, Mr David Phillips, Stephen Wharton, James Jones, Mr Marcus Pickles, rh Mr Eric White, Chris Tellers for the Noes: Kawczynski, Daniel Pincher, Christopher Whittaker, Craig Mr Shailesh Vara and Kelly, Chris Poulter, Dr Daniel Whittingdale, Mr John Mark Hunter Kirby, Simon Prisk, Mr Mark Knight, rh Mr Greg Pritchard, Mark Question accordingly negatived. Kwarteng, Kwasi Pugh, John Laing, Mrs Eleanor Raab, Mr Dominic Lamb, Norman Randall, rh Mr John Clause 90 Lancaster, Mark Reckless, Mark Latham, Pauline Redwood, rh Mr John DUTYTOCO-OPERATE IN RELATION TO PLANNING OF Lee, Jessica Rees-Mogg, Jacob SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT Lee, Dr Phillip Reevell, Simon Amendments made: 151, page 61, line 21, leave out Lefroy, Jeremy Reid, Mr Alan ‘(2)’ and insert ‘(2)(a)’. Leslie, Charlotte Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Amendment 152, page 61, leave out lines 23 to 30 and Lewis, Brandon Robertson, Hugh insert— Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Mr Laurence Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rogerson, Dan ‘(a) considering whether to consult on and prepare, and Lidington, rh Mr David Rosindell, Andrew enter into and publish, agreements on joint approaches to the undertaking of activities within subsection (3), Lloyd, Stephen Rudd, Amber and Lopresti, Jack Ruffley, Mr David Lord, Jonathan Russell, Bob (b) if the person is a local planning authority, considering Loughton, Tim Rutley, David whether to agree under section 28 to prepare joint local development documents.’. Luff, Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Lumley, Karen Sandys, Laura Amendment 153, page 61, line 36, at end insert— Macleod, Mary Scott, Mr Lee (7) A person is within this subsection if the person is a body, Main, Mrs Anne Selous, Andrew or other person, that is prescribed or of a prescribed May, rh Mrs Theresa Shannon, Jim description.’. McCartney, Jason Shapps, rh Grant Amendment 154, page 61, line 36, at end insert— McCartney, Karl Sharma, Alok (8) In this section— McCrea, Dr William Shelbrooke, Alec “the English inshore region” and “the English offshore McIntosh, Miss Anne Simmonds, Mark region” have the same meaning as in the Marine McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Simpson, David and Coastal Access Act 2009, and McPartland, Stephen Simpson, Mr Keith “land” includes the waters within those regions and the McVey, Esther Skidmore, Chris bed and subsoil of those waters.’. Menzies, Mark Smith, Miss Chloe Mercer, Patrick Smith, Henry Amendment 155, page 61, line 36, at end insert— Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Julian ‘(2) In section 16 of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Miller, Maria Smith, Sir Robert Act 2004 (applying Part 2 for purposes of a county council’s Mills, Nigel Soubry, Anna minerals and waste development scheme) after subsection (4) Milton, Anne Spencer, Mr Mark insert— Moore, rh Michael Stephenson, Andrew (5) Also, subsection (3)(b) does not apply to section 33A(1)(a) Mordaunt, Penny Stevenson, John and (aa).”’. Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Bob Amendment 156, page 61, line 36, at end insert— Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Rory Morris, David Streeter, Mr Gary ‘(3) In section 20(5) of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 (development plan documents: purpose of Morris, James Stride, Mel independent examination) after paragraph (b) insert “; and Mosley, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Mowat, David Stunell, Andrew (c) whether the local planning authority complied with any duty imposed on the authority by section 33A in Mulholland, Greg Swales, Ian relation to its preparation.”’.—(Greg Clark.) Mundell, rh David Swayne, Mr Desmond Munt, Tessa Swinson, Jo Murray, Sheryll Swire, rh Mr Hugo Clause 92 Murrison, Dr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert ADOPTION AND WITHDRAWAL OF DEVELOPMENT PLAN Neill, Robert Teather, Sarah DOCUMENTS Newmark, Mr Brooks Thurso, John Newton, Sarah Timpson, Mr Edward Amendments made: 157, page 62, line 29, after ‘conclude’, Nokes, Caroline Tomlinson, Justin insert ‘— Norman, Jesse Tredinnick, David (i) ’. Nuttall, Mr David Truss, Elizabeth Amendment 158, page 62, line 30, at end insert ‘and 307 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 308

(ii) that the local planning authority complied with any (2) Regulations may make provision in connection with— duty imposed on the authority by section 33A in (a) the operation of subsection (1), and relation to the document’s preparation,’.—(Greg (b) the operation of other provisions relating to neighbourhood Clark.) development orders (including sections 61F and 61G) in cases where an area is designated as a neighbourhood Schedule 9 area as a result of that subsection. (3) The regulations may in particular make provision— NEIGHBOURHOOD PLANNING (a) modifying or supplementing the application of, or Amendments made: 159, page 288, line 11, leave out disapplying, any of the provisions mentioned in subsection (2)(b), ‘section 61G’ and insert ‘sections 61G and 61GA(1)’. (b) applying (with or without modifications) any provision Amendment 160, page 289, leave out lines 20 to 30 of Part 6 of the Local Government Act 1972 and insert— (discharge of functions) in cases where the provision ‘(a) it is established expressly for either or both of the would not otherwise apply, following purposes— (c) requiring local planning authorities to exercise, or not (i) furthering the social, economic and environmental to exercise, any power conferred by any provision of well-being of individuals living, or wanting to that Part (including as applied by virtue of paragraph live, in an area that consists of or includes the (b)), and neighbourhood area concerned, (d) conferring powers or imposing duties on local (ii) promoting the carrying on of trades, professions or planning authorities.’. other businesses in such an area, Amendment 164, page 293, line 31, leave out ‘commences’ (b) its membership is open to— and insert ‘begins’. (i) individuals who live in the neighbourhood area concerned, Amendment 165, page 293, line 41, leave out (ii) individuals who work there (whether for businesses ‘commenced’ and insert ‘begun’. carried on there or otherwise), and Amendment 166, page 296, line 11, at end insert— (iii) individuals who are elected members of a county (ba) in subsection (5), for “to be adopted, approved or council, district council or London borough published (as the case may be)” substitute “to council any of whose area falls within the become part of the development plan”,’. neighbourhood area concerned, Amendment 167, page 297, line 39, leave out (c) its membership includes a minimum of 21 individuals each of whom— ‘section 61G’ and insert ‘sections 61G and 61GA(1)’. (i) lives in the neighbourhood area concerned, Amendment 168, page 298, line 6, at end insert— (ii) works there (whether for a business carried on there “(1A) Only one neighbourhood development plan may be or otherwise), or made for each neighbourhood area.’. (iii) is an elected member of a county council, district Amendment 169, page 298, line 26, at end insert— council or London borough council any of whose ‘(ab) section 61GA(2) and (3) (neighbourhood areas in area falls within the neighbourhood area areas of two or more local planning authorities),’. concerned, (d) it has a written constitution, and Amendment 170, page 299, line 2, at end insert— (e) such other conditions as may be prescribed.’. ‘(d) paragraph 8 is to have effect as if sub-paragraphs (2)(aa) and (ab) and (2A) to (2C) were omitted.’.— Amendment 161, page 289, line 34, at end insert— (Greg Clark.) ‘(aa) must, in determining under subsection (5) whether to designate an organisation or body as a neighbourhood forum for a neighbourhood area, Schedule 10 have regard to the desirability of designating an organisation or body— PROCESS FOR MAKING OF NEIGHBOURHOOD (i) which has secured (or taken reasonable steps to DEVELOPMENT ORDERS attempt to secure) that its membership includes at Amendments made: 171, page 302, leave out lines 27 least one individual falling within each of and 28. sub-paragraphs (i) to (iii) of subsection (5)(b), Amendment 172, page 302, line 31, at end insert— (ii) whose membership is drawn from different places in the neighbourhood area concerned and from “(7) The Secretary of State or another local planning different sections of the community in that area, authority may enter into arrangements with the authority for the and provision of the services of any of their employees as examiners. (iii) whose purpose reflects (in general terms) the (8) Those arrangements may include— character of that area,’. (a) provision requiring payments to be made by the Amendment 162, page 290, line 28, at end insert— authority to the Secretary of State or other local ‘(d) requiring a local planning authority to have regard (in planning authority, and addition, where relevant, to the matters set out in (b) other provision in relation to those payments and other subsection (7)(aa)) to prescribed matters in financial matters.’. determining whether to designate an organisation or Amendment 173, page 302, line 46, at end insert— body as a neighbourhood forum.’. (aa) having special regard to the desirability of preserving Amendment 163, page 292, line 2, at end insert— any listed building or its setting or any features of 61GA Neighbourhood areas in areas of two or more local special architectural or historic interest that it planning authorities possesses, it is appropriate to make the order, (1) The power to designate an area as a neighbourhood area (ab) having special regard to the desirability of preserving under section 61G is exercisable by two or more local planning or enhancing the character or appearance of any authorities in England if the area falls within the areas of those conservation area, it is appropriate to make the authorities. order,’. 309 Localism Bill17 MAY 2011 Localism Bill 310

Amendment 174, page 303, line 8, at end insert— Clause 102 “(2A) Sub-paragraph (2)(aa) applies in relation to a listed building only in so far as the order grants planning permission CONSULTATION BEFORE APPLYING FOR PLANNING for development that affects the building or its setting. PERMISSION (2B) Sub-paragraph (2)(ab) applies in relation to a Amendment made: 183, page 72, line 9 [Clause 102], conservation area only in so far as the order grants planning leave out from ‘must’ to ‘carry’ in line 10.—(Greg permission for development in relation to buildings or other land Clark.) in the area. Amendment made: 184, page 104, line 3, leave out (2C) In this paragraph “listed building” has the same meaning Clause 119.—(Greg Clark.) as in the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990.’.—(Greg Clark.) New Clause 16

PROVISION OF ADVICE AND ASSISTANCE IN RELATION TO Schedule 11 COMMUNITY RIGHT TO CHALLENGE ‘(1) The Secretary of State may do anything that the Secretary NEIGHBOURHOOD PLANNING: COMMUNITY RIGHT TO of State considers appropriate for the purpose of giving advice or BUILD ORDERS assistance to a relevant body in relation to— (a) the preparation of an expression of interest for Amendments made: 175, page 312, line 31, at end submission to a relevant authority and its submission insert— to a relevant authority, “(6) Any reference in this Act or any other enactment to (b) participation in a procurement exercise carried out by paragraph 12 of Schedule 4B includes a reference to that a relevant authority in response to an expression of paragraph as modified in accordance with this paragraph.’. interest, or Amendment 176, page 313, line 10, leave out ‘by a (c) the provision of a relevant service on behalf of a community organisation’.—(Greg Clark.) relevant authority following such a procurement exercise. (2) The Secretary of State may do anything that the Secretary of State considers appropriate for the purpose of giving advice or Clause 100 assistance about the operation of this Chapter to a body or person other than a relevant body. FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE IN RELATION TO (3) The things that the Secretary of State may do under this NEIGHBOURHOOD PLANNING section include, in particular— Amendments made: 177, page 71, line 15, leave out (a) the provision of financial assistance to a relevant body; from ‘may’ to end of line 16 and insert ‘do anything that (b) the making of arrangements with a body or person the Secretary of State considers appropriate—’. (whether or not a relevant body), including arrangements for things that may be done by the Amendment 178, page 71, line 20, leave out from ‘of’ Secretary of State under this section to be done by to ‘anything’ in line 21 and insert ‘giving advice or that body or person; assistance to anyone in relation to the making of proposals (c) the provision of financial assistance to a body or for such orders or plans or the doing of’. person other than a relevant body in connection with Amendment 179, page 71, line 22, at end insert— arrangements under paragraph (b). ‘(1A) The things that the Secretary of State may do under this (4) In this section references to a relevant body include a body section include, in particular— that the Secretary of State considers was formed wholly or partly by employees or former employees of the relevant authority for (a) the provision of financial assistance (or the making of the purposes of, or for purposes including— arrangements for its provision) to any body or other (a) participating in a procurement exercise carried out by person, and the authority, or (b) the making of agreements or other arrangements with (b) providing a relevant service on the authority’s behalf. any body or other person (under which payments (5) In this section— may be made to the person).’. (a) the reference to giving advice or assistance includes Amendment page 71, line 23, at end insert— providing training or education, and ‘(za) the reference to giving advice or assistance includes (b) any reference to the provision of financial assistance is providing training or education,’.—(Greg Clark.) to the provision of financial assistance by any means (including the making of a loan and the giving of a guarantee or indemnity).’.—(Greg Clark.) Schedule 12 Brought up, and added to the Bill.

NEIGHBOURHOOD PLANNING: CONSEQUENTIAL New Clause 17 AMENDMENTS PROVISION OF ADVICE AND ASSISTANCE IN RELATION TO Amendments made: 181, page 313, line 25, at end LAND OF COMMUNITY VALUE IN ENGLAND insert— ‘(1) The Secretary of State may do anything that the Secretary 1A In section 56(3) (time when development begun)— of State considers appropriate for the purpose of giving advice or assistance— (a) after “sections” insert “61J(5) and (7),”, and (a) to anyone in relation to doing any of the following— (b) for “and 94” substitute “, 94 and 108(3E)(c)(i)”.’. (i) taking steps under or for purposes of provision Amendment 182, page 315, line 34, leave out ‘started’ contained in, or made under, this Chapter so far and insert ‘begun’.—(Greg Clark.) as applying in relation to England, or 311 Localism Bill 17 MAY 2011 312

(ii) preparing to, or considering or deciding whether to, (b) “community interest group” means a person who is a take steps within sub-paragraph (i), or community interest group for the purposes of (b) to a community interest group in relation to doing any section79(3) as a result of regulations made under of the following— section79(6) by the Welsh Ministers, and (i) bidding for, or acquiring, land in England that is (c) the reference to the provision of financial assistance is included in a local authority’s list of assets of to the provision of financial assistance by any means community value, (including the making of a loan and the giving of a (ii) preparing to, or considering or deciding whether or guarantee or indemnity).’.—(Greg Clark.) how to, bid for or acquire land within sub- Brought up, and added to the Bill. paragraph (i), or (iii) preparing to, or considering or deciding whether or how to, bring land within sub-paragraph (i) Clause 44 into effective use. (2) The things that the Secretary of State may do under this GROUND FOR DETERMINATION section include, in particular— Amendment made: 185, page 31, line 25, leave out (a) the provision of financial assistance to any body or subsection (5).—(Greg Clark.) other person; (b) the making of arrangements with a body or other person, including arrangements for things that may Clause 55 be done by the Secretary of State under this section to be done by that body or other person. INTERPRETATION (3) In this section— Amendment made: (a) the reference to giving advice or assistance includes 186, page 36, line 45, at end insert— providing training or education, ‘(3) For the purposes of this Chapter the Inner Temple and the (b) “community interest group” means a person who is a Middle Temple are to be treated as falling within the ward of community interest group for the purposes of Farrington Without in the City of London (and so are to be section79(3) as a result of regulations made under treated as falling within the area of the Common Council of the section79(6) by the Secretary of State, and City of London for those purposes).’.—(Greg Clark.) (c) the reference to the provision of financial assistance is to the provision of financial assistance by any means Schedule 5 (including the making of a loan and the giving of a guarantee or indemnity).’.—(Greg Clark.) Brought up, and added to the Bill. NEW CHAPTER 4ZA OF PART 1 OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT FINANCE ACT 1992 Amendments made: 187, page 254, line 10, after ‘falls’, New Clause 18 insert ‘wholly or partly’. Amendment 188, page 264, line 10, after second ‘for’, PROVISION OF ADVICE AND ASSISTANCE IN RELATION TO insert ‘the part of’. LAND OF COMMUNITY VALUE IN WALES Amendment 189, page 264, line 10, after ‘area’, insert ‘(1) The Welsh Ministers may do anything that they consider ‘comprising the authority’s area’.—(Greg Clark.) appropriate for the purpose of giving advice or assistance— Amendment made: 190, page 37, line 7, leave out (a) to anyone in relation to doing any of the following— Clause 57.—(Greg Clark.) (i) taking steps under or for purposes of provision contained in, or made under, this Chapter so far Bill to be further considered tomorrow. as applying in relation to Wales, or (ii) preparing to, or considering or deciding whether to, Business without Debate take steps within sub-paragraph (i), or (b) to a community interest group in relation to doing any of the following— DELEGATED LEGISLATION (i) bidding for, or acquiring, land in Wales that is Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing included in a local authority’s list of assets of community value, Order No. 118(6)), (ii) preparing to, or considering or deciding whether or how to, bid for or acquire land within sub- SOCIAL SECURITY paragraph (i), or That the draft Employment and Support Allowance (Work-Related (iii) preparing to, or considering or deciding whether Activity) Regulations 2011, which were laid before this House on or how to, bring land within sub-paragraph (i) 28 February, be approved.—(Mr Newmark.) into effective use. Question agreed to. (2) The things that the Welsh Ministers may do under this Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing section include, in particular— Order No. 118(6)), (a) the provision of financial assistance to any body or other person; INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT (b) the making of arrangements with a body or other person, including arrangements for things that may That the draft Debt Relief (Developing Countries) Act 2010 be done by the Welsh Ministers under this section to (Permanent Effect) Order 2011, which was laid before this House be done by that body or other person. on 28 March, be approved.—(Mr Newmark.) (3) In this section— Question agreed to. (a) the reference to giving advice or assistance includes Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing providing training or education, Order No. 118(6)), 313 Business without Debate 17 MAY 2011 314

LANDFILL TAX Public Health Observatories That the Landfill Tax (Qualifying Material) Order 2011 (S.I., 2011, Motion made, and Question proposed, That this No. 1017), dated 31 March 2011, a copy of which was laid before this House on 31 March, be approved.—(Mr Newmark.) House do now adjourn.—(Mr Newmark.) Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing 10.54 pm Order No. 118(6)), Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I am grateful to have this opportunity to raise the very important CARE OF CATHEDRALS MEASURE subject of the future of our public health observatories, That the Care of Cathedrals Measure (HC 868), passed by the which are an integral part of the national health service. General Synod of the Church of England, be presented to Her They are responsible for public health intelligence work— Majesty for Her Royal Assent in the form in which the said collecting the evidence base and directing how different Measure was laid before Parliament.—(Tony Baldry.) agencies work to improve public health. It might be Question agreed to. useful if I give a definition of public health. The best Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing definition I have been able to find is one from the World Order No. 118(6)), Health Organisation’s expert committee on public health administration that was published as long ago as 1952. ECCLESIASTICAL FEES (AMENDMENT)MEASURE It defined public health as That the Ecclesiastical Fees (Amendment) Measure (HC 870), “the science and art of preventing disease, prolonging life, and passed by the General Synod of the Church of England, be promoting health and efficiency through organized community presented to Her Majesty for Her Royal Assent in the form in efforts for the sanitation of the environment, the control of which the said Measure was laid before Parliament.—(Tony communicable infections, the education of the individual in personal Baldry.) hygiene, the organization of medical and nursing services for early diagnosis and preventive treatment of disease, and the Question agreed to. development of the social machinery to ensure for every individual Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing a standard of living adequate for the maintenance of health, so Order No. 118(6)), organizing these benefits as to enable every citizen to realize his birthright of health and longevity.” MISSION AND PASTORAL MEASURE The Association of Public Health Observatories That the Mission and Pastoral Measure (HC 869), passed by represents and co-ordinates a network of 12 public the General Synod of the Church of England, be presented to health observatories in Scotland, Wales, England, Northern Her Majesty for Her Royal Assent in the form in which the said Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That body brings Measure was laid before Parliament.—(Tony Baldry.) together joint public health intelligence work from all Question agreed to. its organisations across the United Kingdom and Ireland and also works in collaboration with its counterparts The Vice-Chamberlain of Her Majesty’s Household across Europe. Without that range of high-quality and (Mr Mark Francois): Amen. trustworthy knowledge, expertise and support from public health observatories, much of the work carried out by Mr Speaker: The senior Whip on duty says amen, practitioners and, indeed, local authorities, policy makers which will doubtless be noted on the record. and the wider community, would be carried out in the dark. That would, without doubt, result in a less focused and less effective service delivery. All that makes public health observatories central to both local and central Government health policy and decision making. Public health observatories were set up to monitor the state of the public’s health and the causes of poor health and health inequalities, with the information being used by a range of organisations involved in providing health care, including the NHS. The White Paper, “Saving Lives: Our Healthier Nation”, which was published by the Department of Health in 1999, proposed the establishment of the public health observatories that were then set up in 2000 by the Labour Government. The Association of Public Health Observatories was also established in 2000. That umbrella group provides a link between regional public health observatories and national arrangements. It comprises representatives from all the regional public health observatories, the Department of Health and other partners, and one concern that I wish to raise is the fact that its funding has been removed this year. I hope that the Minister will accept that improving the knowledge and evidence base behind health care was a key element of the previous Government’s policy and was instrumental in making progress in tackling health inequalities. The changes outlined by the Health Secretary in the Health and Social Care Bill move us 315 Public Health Observatories17 MAY 2011 Public Health Observatories 316 away from a co-ordinated health service towards a where the public health observatory has done excellent competition-based health service. The public health work on addressing inequalities that affect people with White Paper, “Healthy Lives, Healthy People”, published mental health issues and inhibit their ability to access on 30 November 2010, set out a new structure for public services. The lessons of that can be rolled out across the health in England. Its aim was to shift the balance of country. responsibility away from central Government to local The important work of the observatories over the authorities. There has also been much greater emphasis past decade has been self-evident. On 24 June 2008 the on the need for people to be supported in taking more health profiles for every local authority and region responsibility for their own health—the so-called nudge across England were published jointly by the Department philosophy. of Health and the Association of Public Health There are many public health issues that I would like Observatories, an organisation which, as I mentioned to discuss but unfortunately do not have time to develop earlier, has lost all its funding. Using key health indicators, tonight because of the shortage of time. I want to press public health observatories were able to pinpoint national on and put some points to the Minister, particularly health statistics at a local level, providing valuable about public health observatories, and I hope she will information to address health inequalities and improve have the opportunity to respond to them. health outcomes. As the Minister at the time, my right hon. Friend the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Prevention is key Member for Bristol South (Dawn Primarolo), now the to having a healthier nation and perhaps this issue Deputy Speaker, noted, the importance of those statistics should be reconsidered in the NHS review, as it might was help to improve the nation’s health. “to target local health hotspots with effective measures to make a real difference.” Grahame M. Morris: I am grateful for that and I In my constituency, Healthworks, an excellent clinic agree. It is fundamental to have a solid evidence base on established in Paradise lane in Easington and opened by which to plan health interventions. Sir Derek Wanless, is a prime example of how that As I mentioned, the Government propose in the information collected by the observatories was used to Health and Social Care Bill to transfer health improvement great effect to target the areas in greatest need. functions from PCTs to local authorities, and to create The Association of Public Health Observatories, with a new body, Public Health England, to be rooted in the the Department of Health, also published a health Department of Health. Public Health England is expected inequalities intervention toolkit to enable every English to take on full responsibility for overseeing the local local authority to model the effect of high-impact delivery of public health services, as well as dealing with interventions on the life expectancy gap. As far back as national issues such as flu pandemics and other population- 1977, the Department of Health’s chief scientific adviser, wide health threats from next year. The majority of Sir Douglas Black, was asked to produce a report on public health services will be commissioned by local the extent of health inequalities in the UK and how best authorities. However, the revolution under way in the to address them. The report proved conclusively that NHS is just as important to the future of public health death rates for many diseases were higher among those in England. in the lower social classes. It acknowledged that the The Bill, which proposes the abolition of strategic NHS could do much more to address the situation. It health authorities and primary care trusts, raises more called for increases in child benefit, improvements in questions than it answers. The responsibilities currently maternity allowances, more pre-school education, an held by PCTs could be moved to local authorities, to the expansion of child care and better housing. A further Department of Health, to commissioning consortia or report was subsequently produced by Professor Peter to the NHS commissioning board. How the important Townsend. Indeed, only last week I attended a seminar, work of public health observatories will be safeguarded in which the principal speaker was Sir Michael Marmot, for the future is still unknown. The decision to divide on the impact of cold homes on health outcomes. The public health responsibilities between the Department report indicated that the cost to the NHS of illness of Health and local authorities will fragment any cohesive resulting from poorly insulated houses and cold homes approach to tackling health inequalities. Whether new is £2 million a year. commissioning consortia will carry out some functions is at this stage unknown. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Is my hon. Friend There are further concerns about whether Public aware of the Marmot report— Health England should be outside the Department of Health to protect its independence. If it was placed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health within the NHS, perhaps as a special health authority, (Anne Milton): Marmite? surely that would better meet the Government’s own aim, often stated, of liberating the NHS from political Ian Lavery: The Marmot review, published in 2010, control. stated clearly, as one of its nine objectives: The Minister will be aware of the response to the “Economic growth is not the most important measure of our White Paper by the public health observatories in country’s success. The fair distribution of health, well-being and March 2011. That response calls for a sub-national level sustainability are important social goals. Tackling social inequalities of organisation of Public Health England to be created, in health and tackling climate change must go together.” with sufficient critical mass to ensure that the outputs of Public Health England continue to be valuable locally Grahame M. Morris: I am grateful to my hon. Friend as well as nationally. There are many examples where for mentioning that important and contemporary report. that is the case, not least in my own region, the north-east, I completely agree with Sir Michael Marmot’s findings— 317 Public Health Observatories17 MAY 2011 Public Health Observatories 318

[Grahame M. Morris] Staff and people associated with the service have reported to me that valued employees are already being and Marmite is also very good for public health. Building laid off at the north-west public health observatory, on the work of Professor Townsend and Sir Douglas which is based at Liverpool John Moores university, Black, Sir Michael Marmot states as one of his and there is a similar situation at the north-east public recommendations: health observatory. Local authorities commission the “Action taken to reduce health inequalities will benefit society majority of public health services from a ring-fenced in many ways. It will have economic benefits in reducing losses budget. What assurances can the Minister give me on from illness associated with health inequalities. These currently safeguarding through this hiatus—this period of account for productivity losses, reduced tax revenue, higher welfare transition—and for the long term under the new payments and increased treatment costs.” arrangements? I mentioned the economic benefits of insulating houses. I also thank David Kidney, the former Member for It would be a real step forward if the Marmot report’s Stafford, who is now head of policy at the Chartered six principal recommendations were incorporated and Institute of Environmental Health, for his assistance in linked to quality standards in the public health outcomes preparing for this debate. The institute has stated its framework that the National Institute for Health and view that Public Health England must be established Clinical Excellence is working on. with a degree of independence, a point I made earlier, and with the ability to oversee arrangements for collecting, Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): My hon. Friend analysing and disseminating valuable data for public mentioned the Black report, the Townsend report and health services. the Marmot report, and I wonder whether Government In short, it is now time for Ministers to provide officials and Ministers might in due course come to concrete assurances that the role of public health regard the Marmot review a little like Marmite—either intelligence, the collection of the evidence base and, in loving it or hating it—in respect of its findings, because particular, public health observatories will be safeguarded it is clear that the need to monitor what is going on in for the future. public health across the regions of England, such as the north-east, is vital for future policy developments. Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab) rose— Grahame M. Morris: Absolutely. That is a critical Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. issue. In some respects, the Government have taken There are just over 10 minutes left, so is it by agreement their eye of the ball. I will develop that point a little that I call the hon. Member? later and would like the Minister to respond to it. As my hon. Friend pointed out, there is a clear and Grahame M. Morris indicated assent. present danger of a reversal of health inequalities, which would be exacerbated by decisions taken elsewhere Madam Deputy Speaker: I call Diane Abbott. across Government. It is such an important issue, and one that I have long campaigned on. As someone who 11.11 pm has worked in the health service and served on a local Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) authority, I feel very passionately about it. (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Remarkably, we are now considering proposals that Easington (Grahame M. Morris) on raising this very risk losing our greatest weapon in tackling public health important issue on the Adjournment. I, like everyone inequalities: evidence-based health intelligence. More else in the Chamber, want to hear what the Minister has recently, as my hon. Friends have noted, the Marmot to say in response to the important points that he has review has restated the link between socio-economic made. factors and health, which are known as the wider One reason why my hon. Friend’s debate is so important determinants of health. One of the more serious threats is that, amid all the public anger about the health to the future of public health intelligence is its future service reforms, the effects on public health have not funding under the new arrangements proposed by the received the attention that they should have. Speaking Government. In my view, the Secretary of State has as an east end MP, I must say that the information that shown little interest in the functioning of public health the public health observatories produce is important in intelligence under these proposed structures. ensuring that whoever commissions services commissions Public health policies must take account of local for the population, not just for GPs’ lists. I live in an circumstances as health inequalities remain stark, area where many communities are either not registered particularly in areas such as my constituency. For example, with a GP or in other ways socially excluded. smoking-related deaths vary greatly across different My hon. Friend has raised the important issue of parts of the country. Public health intelligence must health inequality, and it is easy to talk about that in the drive public health practice. I appreciate that public abstract, but we should reflect on the fact that this is health observatories self-generate revenue, alongside 2011, because the life expectancy of someone in the their Department of Health grant and moneys from richest part of Glasgow is 10 years more than that of primary care trusts and strategic health authorities. someone in the poorest part, and if we take the Jubilee They also have opportunities to gain commissions from line tonight we will find that the people living at every universities and charitable organisations, but it would stop from Westminster going east until Canning Town be extremely risky to proceed down the Government’s lose a few years in life expectancy. This is a very real proposed route without the certainty of their core issue and an indictment of our society. I congratulate Department of Health funding, which I understand is my hon. Friend again on raising it, and I will listen with to be reduced by 30% this year. interest to what the Minister has to say. 319 Public Health Observatories17 MAY 2011 Public Health Observatories 320

11.13 pm make inroads into these very persistent, difficult to move inequalities in health, we have to approach it in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health that way. There is no question of losing the main (Anne Milton): I am grateful to the hon. Member for functions of the observatories; on the contrary, in fact. Easington (Grahame M. Morris) for raising the subject By transferring those functions to Public Health England, of public health observatories, and I should probably we will improve how they are used. declare an interest, because my husband is a public health physician. Anybody who has an interest in public The hon. Gentleman will be aware that we have health knows how important the observatories are, but consulted for several months on the new public health time is very short, and I will not get to all the points that system, and we are continuing to listen. It is very the hon. Gentleman made. interesting to see what we are getting back, with a warm welcome for many of the changes. There are always The public health observatories have been around for anxieties about difficult periods of transition. We have more than a decade, and they produce a whole series of convened a working group on information and intelligence high-quality data. Annual health profiles, for instance, for public health, which is chaired by the regional of local areas allow for those comparisons that are so director of public health for South Central Strategic important, and there is no doubt about the importance Health Authority, Professor John Newton. It has of reducing inequalities. The reports of Sir Douglas representatives from the Department, the Health Protection Black, Peter Townsend and more recently Sir Michael Agency, the public health observatories and the cancer Marmot are all key documents. registries, and it is meeting fortnightly to develop our It is important to remember that over the past decade approach to public health information and intelligence. or so health inequalities have become worse, but I point This is an opportunity to get it absolutely right. no fingers, because it is testament to the fact that it is The future of the observatories is being very closely extremely difficult to reduce inequalities. The hon. managed, and that includes their locations. Department Gentleman mentioned several issues that contribute to of Health funding for the observatories has been agreed that. There are a range of factors, not least changing for 2011-12. Although there has been a reduction in the people’s behaviour, which is not easy. The Government’s core contribution for each observatory, the Department contribution of £12 million to the observatories is testament of Health funding set aside as the core public health to how important it is that we get good intelligence. He information and intelligence budget remains similar to will have read the public health White Paper, in which previous years, and that will be supplemented by additional he will see our commitment to this. For the first time, we Department of Health grants, so overall funding will be will ring-fence funds for public health. about the same. The movement of public health into local authorities I should like to thank the north-east public health has been fairly widely welcomed. There are transitional observatory for its contributions, including in relation arrangements that we need to get right, but it will be to the national library for public health and the learning based on a direct line of sight from the Department of disability specialist observatory. Its strong strategic Health, as we need to bring some things together. We relationship with the academic sector through its host, need clear responsibilities and a clear outcomes framework the university of Durham, has been particularly beneficial. to ensure that local authorities give us what we need, Officials in the Department are in regular contact with with all that based on good and sound intelligence. both institutions so that financial and other pressures Although the public health observatories have done a are addressed as they arise. Like most of its counterparts, very good job, there are some areas—for instance, changing the north-east observatory receives income from the behaviour—where the intelligence is not good and we Department of Health, the NHS and others. I understand have not collected it together. that it currently has a working capital of about £1 million, We want the data and evidence from the observatories which is not insignificant. to be used to improve the health of everybody, regardless The university’s human resources policies require it of age, ethnicity, gender, income or sexuality. The public to alert staff at least six months before any changes in health White Paper sets out a clear life-course approach employment, which is important for staff at this uncertain to that. It is impossible to make these changes without time. We are making sure that the university is aware of good intelligence and information. Despite the wealth the ongoing need for the observatory’s work, and hence of data, the evidence of what works is not necessarily its expert staff. It is important that we do not see any being used as effectively as it could be, nor is it as widely loss in that. available as it could be, and it remains only part of the We are lucky in this country to have such a rich information that we need. In any system where there are source of expertise. We must ensure that we maximise numerous stand-alone organisations, there are always the benefit of that expertise, knowledge and intelligence. dangers of overlap and duplication, and we want to I hope that I have reassured the hon. Gentleman. I eliminate that as much as possible. In short, we want to thank him for raising this issue and giving me an move from a system where we have a complex web of opportunity to say how much we value the work of information functions performed by multiple organisations observatories. Their functions remain indispensable, but towards a system where that information is fully integrated they must adapt to the new system. We want to streamline into the public health system. the system and do what we set out to do, which is to As the hon. Gentleman said, this is not about one reduce inequalities in health. We will base any action we Department—the Department of Health—doing it alone, take on sound evidence. but about public health being absolutely everybody’s business. The difference can be made from the top to Ms Abbott: Will the Minister explain how, under the the bottom in Government and right across the different proposed system, we can make the free-standing GP Departments; it is an issue for us all. If we are truly to commissioning consortia, some of which may be managed 321 Public Health Observatories17 MAY 2011 Public Health Observatories 322

[Ms Abbott] We will ensure that the consortia have regard to the public’s health. When we say “public health” it can by private-sector organisations, pay attention in their sound a bit jargonistic. We are talking about the public’s commissioning decisions to the issues raised by public health and about reducing the inequalities that have health observatories and others? It seems to me that dogged society up to now and which successive without PCTs and other regional structures, it will be Governments have failed to reduce. We have to do perfectly possible for the commissioning structures to something different. We are moving from a system in ignore what public health observatories say. which public health got sidelined and in which the work of public health observatories, although valuable, was Anne Milton: I thank the hon. Lady for raising that not mainstream, to a system where that work is brought point. In fact, we inherited that system. Time and time into the mainstream and into the direct line of sight. All again, budgets for public health have been raided to those who make commissioning decisions and all local meet short-term commitments. One point of ring-fencing authorities should hear the clear message from Government public health funding is to ensure that public health is that public health is everybody’s business. central to the work that the local authority does and that it informs the commissioning arrangements in a Question put and agreed to. local area. It is not good having just one area looking at public health. We are ring-fencing that money and will have a clear outcomes framework that sets out what the 11.23 pm Government expect. House adjourned. 1WH 17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 2WH

Friend agree that it is inevitable that social care services Westminster Hall will be affected when a local authority’s budget is cut by more than 16% in just one year, as Nottingham’s has Tuesday 17 May 2011 been?

Alex Cunningham: It most certainly is. My hon. Friend [MR GRAHAM BRADY in the Chair] says that social care accounts for £1 in every £4, and a 16% cut represents a considerable reduction in the Social Care Services amount available to spend on social care. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting ADASS also concludes: be now adjourned.—(Paul Burstow.) “savings on this scale simply cannot be achieved through doing the same things more efficiently or by trimming management 9.30 am costs”. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I look As for the money that has gone to PCTs, can the forward to serving under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. Minister tell us, hand on heart, that he has any idea how I am pleased that we have the opportunity to debate this much of it will be spent on social care this year? Given important subject, which is being discussed more widely the revolution unleashed by the Health and Social Care around the country by families and individuals who Bill, PCTs have had other issues on their mind as they fear for their future. have sought to protect services during a transition period The Government will try to boast that they are that will see them abolished. More importantly, this providing extra cash for social care, but that is not how transition period threatens to reverse the progress made people out there see things. “Hardest hit”—that is how on health and social care over the past few decades. I the thousands of disabled people who marched in the just wonder what guarantees there can be that we will streets outside this place last week described themselves. have properly commissioned and funded care once PCTs One woman from Billingham in my constituency, who have gone and have been replaced by consortia that do has been blind since the age of 18, was among those not have the expertise and understanding of our who made the long trek to Westminster, and she told me community’s wider health and social care needs. about her anxieties and the effect that the cuts will have Media reports just this weekend outlined the profits on her life. She and the other demonstrators had every that some think can be made from the health and social right to be angry; they will be the hardest hit by the care system, effectively taking hard cash from the front Government’s proposed cuts to disability benefits and line. The Prime Minister’s senior adviser, Mark Britnell, the hardest hit by the swingeing cuts to council services told a New York conference attended by the giant that began this year, with more to come over the next private health care providers that dominate in north three years. That means four years of anxiety and dread America that the changes over the next two years will for families and individuals whose way of life depends provide a “big opportunity” for the profit- making on services with an uncertain future. sector. As I am sure hon. Members will know, no one Last year, adult social care services helped 1.7 million can make profits without taking cash out of the system. adults to do things that most of us take for granted. I look forward to hearing what reassurance the Minister Those 1.7 million adults remember the Chancellor speaking can give those who will be hardest hit. What is his of his £6 billion cuts to local government grants and guarantee that profiteers will not have their way with saying: the NHS and related social care services? “Not a single penny will come from the frontline services that I know that Ministers get fed up with MPs from the people depend on.” north highlighting the divisions in our country, but the How hollow those words ring today. I am sure the BBC is highlighting them now. In a survey released last Minister intends to refer to the £1 billion that the week, it identified a new north-south divide, with social Government are giving councils over four years to care spending this year falling in the north while actually spend on social care services and to the £1 billion that rising in the south, although I will question the value of doomed primary care trusts are supposed to spend on that so-called rise later. The BBC’s findings reflect the them over the same period—cash they are expected to differential impact of the cuts, with councils in the take directly from the health budget, which the Prime midlands and the north more reliant on central grants Minister claims to be so protective of. and thus hardest hit. The findings may also reflect The trouble is that even the Conservative-led Local demographic differences and the effect of falling property Government Association calculates that £4.6 billion is values on people’s ability to self-fund. needed just to stand still and to maintain services as In the north, spending will fall by 4.7% in the current they are today. The reality is that the £530 million of financial year alone. Then there are deprivation factors additional funding that the Government have provided to be taken into consideration. Local authorities in the for social care in their first year is dwarfed by the most deprived areas—many are in the north, but they £3 billion that councils have had to cut. According to are elsewhere as well—have the worst mortality figures the Financial Times and the Association of Directors of and the highest incidence of long-term ill health, but Adult Social Services, £1 billion of that has been cut they are suffering the deepest cuts in spending power. from adult social care. Front-loading the cuts means that huge changes must be brought in quickly, giving little time for consultation Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Adult with staff and service users over the best way to minimise social care accounts for £1 in every £4 that my local the impact on front-line services. That said, I would not authority in Nottingham city spends. Does my hon. like anyone to get the impression that things are rosy in 3WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 4WH

[Alex Cunningham] when living in London, where there weren’t these services, I had many hospital admissions; I have had none since the south. The 2.7% increase in spending in the south is living in Leeds.” about half the rate of inflation and does not keep pace Mencap provided me with a graphic example of what with need. Nor will it be enough to prevent real people the cuts mean for George and his daughter, who are from losing real support—support that, in the Chancellor’s from Rotherham. George’s daughter has profound and words, they depend on. multiple learning disabilities. Due to her disability, she My main purpose in securing the debate, however, is is doubly incontinent and requires the use of many to consider the human impact of social care cuts, not disposable items of medical equipment. She lives with just to debate dry spending figures. her dad, and as part of her care package, the council picks up all body and medical waste from the household. Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I note The waste includes faeces, urine, blood and vomit. what the hon. Gentleman says about funding. He briefly Mencap says that Rotherham council has gone from mentioned the issue of commissioners and quality, which collecting the hazardous waste once a week to once is clearly as important as funding. Does he share my every 14 days, and has reduced the amount that it picks concern that the changing role of the Care Quality up by 50%. The council has also stopped providing Commission, which will now monitor providers rather specialist waste bags for the disposal of the waste, than commissioners, will mean that there is a gap and, leaving the family to cover the additional cost themselves. therefore a risk that commissioners will not be held to That bodily waste now goes into black bin bags mixed account and provide good-quality care? with household waste, which are sent to landfill. These stories illustrate the fundamental truth: these cuts are a false economy with devastating human, social and economic Alex Cunningham: Yes, I agree that there is a considerable costs. risk. I should say that I have been much impressed by In a recent national survey by a group of charities, the role played by local authorities in health scrutiny. I including Carers UK and the Alzheimer’s Society, half hope that the Minister will answer the hon. Lady’s the respondents said that increased charges for care question directly later. meant that they could no longer afford essentials such The successful judicial review against Birmingham as food and heating, and more than half said that their city council’s adult social care cuts looks set to be health had suffered as a result. We must consider the hugely significant. The Minister might be tempted to services run by voluntary organisations—dare I say it, hide behind a carefully drawn veil of localism, but does the big society—that offer early help for people who do he really consider it acceptable that Birmingham should not necessarily qualify for assessed council support. seek to withdraw support from 5,000 people? Many of Day care centres, meals on wheels, support groups and those people could be in a situation where abuse or drop-in centres are being cut because they are losing neglect have occurred, or will occur, or they could be grant funding. unable to carry out the majority of their personal care Jackie Dray used to run four support groups called or domestic routines. They will be the real losers in all “Elders with Attitude”—I love that name—in Birmingham, this. but she was told in March that her £30,000 council Does the Minister consider it acceptable that 2,145 elderly grant was to be cut altogether. She now runs only one and vulnerable people in Lancashire will have all care group and is desperately looking for alternative funding. and support removed, as part of cuts that are the She said: subject of another judicial review? Does he consider it “They are cutting luncheon clubs or groups like mine that acceptable that desperate families are being forced to go could make a difference between somebody remaining in the to the High Court to try to prevent devastating damage community or sinking into clinical depression and residential to their quality of life or that of family members? care. For a small amount of money, you could delay the point at which people have to go into hospital. I see a lot of clinical In West Sussex, the “Don’t Cut Us Out” campaign depression in carers and cared-for alike. People are teetering on has brought people together to campaign against eligibility the brink. There’s a lot of frustration, worry, lack of sleep.” cuts. If Members visit its website, they can read testimony Before we can consider the future of social care services, from Tony, who has limited mobility. He must carry an we have to consider the consequences fully. oxygen cylinder wherever he goes and he is susceptible to blackouts and periods of deep depression. He will While we await the Dilnot commission report on lose all the benefits and support currently provided by long-term funding and the Government’s response to West Sussex county council. He says: the Law Commission review, the Government are, in effect, already re-engineering the infrastructure of care “My current care package...provides for 13 hours of care support each week and has kept me out of hospital for much of and support. As services are razed, my fear is that the last two years, saving the Country hundreds of thousands of capacity is being lost, services are being withdrawn and pounds. Before, I was in hospital for six months at a time, and staff are being lost—capacity and skills that cannot once discharged was being re-admitted every two weeks or so. I easily be recreated. The Government are seeking to can’t imagine what my life will be like without this support.” soften people up and lower their expectations, to get Back in the north, local people, service users and staff them to accept a return to reliance on family and have been campaigning to halt the closure of Leeds buying from the open market with their own funds, or a Crisis Centre and the threat to mental health day services patchwork of precarious charitable provision from a in Armley and Hunslet. At a packed campaign meeting third sector suffering its own cuts and challenges. organised by Unison, a campaigning trade union of I want to turn to the ideal, which I thought all the which I am proud to be a member, a service user said, “I parties shared, of personalisation in adult social care. I am saving the council money by using these services; fear that that ideal is being lost. The cuts mean that the 5WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 6WH policy, which promised much, is fatally undermined. right and centre—on some of the most vulnerable people Social workers and care managers tell their union that in our society. As my hon. Friend the Member for they are being expected to reassess personal budgets Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) says, something with a view to cutting them. I know that they need to needs to be done if we are to arrest this situation. consider value for money for all care packages, but they The director of children, education and social care believe that they are expected to make cuts to get the for Stockton-on-Tees borough council says that the budgets down. result of the cuts, if we have limited extra care and A forthcoming report on a survey that Unison conducted supported living options, will be a further over-reliance with Community Care will highlight the fact that the on residential provision. An integrated health and social paperwork and bureaucracy associated with personal care facility and extra care scheme in Billingham in my budgets is excessive and inaccessible for service users. I constituency was an important part of my council’s question the Minister’s decision to prescribe from Whitehall strategy for supporting people, but the Government that personal budgets be provided in the form of direct refused the private finance initiative credits to make it payments. That appears to be at odds with his claim to happen. Would the Minister prefer his granny, mother be a champion of local determination and removes or other elderly relative to be forced into residential care choice from people who wish to have a managed budget. when they could have been supported in their own It appears to be linked to the aim of completely withdrawing home or an extra care facility and had the independence state provision. Individuals will be expected to navigate that I know most older people want? the market or take on what many will see as the onerous Another area of concern is the shortfall in funding to and stressful responsibility of becoming an employer. I support carers. Yes, I know that the Government allocated urge him to reconsider the prescription of direct payments, a welcome £400 million for carers’ breaks, but other as there is evidence that it will restrict choice, but more funding managed by PCTs to support adults and their importantly, distress some of our most vulnerable people, carers is not ring-fenced in any way, and although some who already have enough challenges in life. flexibility is needed, carers, who are often seen as the As we contemplate the future of adult social care poor relation, could end up all the poorer. services, there can be no under-estimating the scale of The sector skills body estimates that the social care the challenges that we face as a society: by 2041, the work force needs to double by 2025, and yet it is a sector number of adults with learning disabilities, we are told, characterised by labour shortages, low pay, poor prospects will have risen by 21%; the numbers of young people and a poor image. Some 60% of care workers hold no with physical or sensory impairments by 17%; and care qualifications, and only 20% have a national vocational disabled older people by a massive 108%. We all know qualification level 2; only 10 % have an NVQ level 3. that the number of dependent older people is set to Before anyone intervenes on that point, I should say increase hugely. The Association of British Insurers that I believe that previous Governments, including our says that currently 20% of men and 30% of women will own Labour Government, could have done more to require long-term care at some point. If we add to that address that issue. However, it is not just Governments’ the challenges of the increasing number of young adults responsibility; other organisations, including service with complex needs who will need very expensive care providers, should play their part in driving up qualification packages for decades; the 170,000 people with a learning standards and meeting the costs. disability who Mencap tell us live with parents and carers who are already over 70 years old; the growth in Is the provision made by such organisations being the number of people with dementia, which the Alzheimer’s properly managed or being left to the market? In Stockton, Society says is set to soar by a third to 1 million people we have over-provision of residential care places, some by 2025; the costs facing authorities due to alcohol of which are under financial pressure, including those misuse; and the number of people with obesity-related owned by Southern Cross, which is seeking £100 million problems, then we can see that the Government’s proposals from investors to secure its future. Surely we need some are destined to fall well short of what is needed. kind of controlled management or strategic planning to The director of children, education and social care get this right and ensure that standards are maintained. for Stockton-on-Tees borough council, which serves We must look to the future of adult social care. We people in my constituency, says that we have to be need immediate action to lay the groundwork for genuine mindful of the knock-on effect of the reduction in other reforms to flourish. The Chancellor said that his cuts funding streams that impact on adults—the independent would not touch front-line services; he should be prepared living fund, the Supporting People programme and to say that he got it wrong. There is an urgent need for a affordable housing funding. She tells me that some of new plan that looks again at the local government the funding streams that have historically been linked settlement and works with local authorities to ensure with it are being reduced or ceasing, while her department that front-line services are funded to meet need. Everybody works to maximise people’s independence. agrees that we must do more to give early help because it prevents dependence and saves money on acute care, Lilian Greenwood: Does my hon. Friend share my and yet those services are first in line for the chop. Will concern that these cuts come alongside the cuts to the Minister genuinely and strenuously consider the disability benefits outlined in the Welfare Reform Bill, recommendation of a duty to provide early help for in which Ministers talk about targeting those in greatest adult services such as that which Professor Munro need? Is not there a danger that disabled people with made for children’s services? moderate needs could lose all support and face isolation and a loss of independence? The Minister must reconsider the equation of personalisation with the transaction of receiving direct Alex Cunningham: That is very much the case. A payment. Personalisation is not about ticking boxes and stream of people have come to our surgeries or to see us having the right number of people receive direct payment. in Parliament, and there seem to be so many attacks—left, Trying to make it work in the context of the cuts 7WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 8WH

[Alex Cunningham] having a stable, highly skilled and confident work force. The quality of care is all about the quality of relationships, requires him to spend time talking to practitioners and but for as long as we have a 25% turnover of care staff service users about what is happening on the ground we are letting down the hardest hit, who deserve much and what they think the priorities should be. We need to better. get it right for individuals. The future of social care and its funding is not a We need an improved and comprehensive work-force matter only for this generation or this Government. We strategy covering training, development and qualification all have a responsibility. I hope that the Minister accepts standards as a condition of provider registration and a that the Government should not go it alone, but should commitment to working towards a living wage for all work with everyone involved to find the kind of long-term care workers. We must work with work-force representatives solution that will help to ease the anxieties of an increasing to boost the autonomy and confidence of practitioners. number of disabled and elderly people. I am sure that the Minister will welcome, as work-force I end with a question for the Minister. If we are all in regulators have, Unison’s duty of care handbook for this together, why is it that adult social care is the health and social care staff. The handbook aims to hardest hit? Is it not the case that the most vulnerable promote awareness among workers of their duty of care are taking a disproportionate hit? I hope that the Minister and other professional duties, and of how to raise will accept my points and other constructive points concerns about poor practice. made during this debate, and that he will answer our Costs, too, need to be addressed urgently.The Association specific questions. He should reflect on the unfairness of British Insurers says that the average cost of care in of what is going on. He should realise that despite all residential homes in the UK is approaching £25,000 a the statements, funding is not meeting today’s needs year, with people in England spending an estimated and that current plans will not address the increased £420 million a year on private home care. This question demands of the future. I hope that he will tell all those was not sensibly debated during the general election. who receive adult social care services that he will make We need cross-party co-operation to reach a long-term changes to current and future plans to ensure that the sustainable solution to the problem. most vulnerable have a quality of life that most of us take for granted. Anne Marie Morris: The hon. Gentleman raises a question about care homes and fees. Does he agree that one way to solve the problem would be to introduce a 9.54 am standard contract? At the moment, there are great differences in provision; there is no consistency in standards, Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) which means that one person’s care can be very different (Lab): It is a pleasure, Mr Brady, to serve under your from another’s. chairmanship. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) on securing Alex Cunningham: During my time I have visited this morning’s debate, which concerns an incredibly many care homes, and I have seen many variations in challenging and complex matter. quality and standards. I have seen some places where I am concerned that few Government Members are elderly people were highly motivated and excitedly engaged here today, so I congratulate the hon. Member for in activities and others where people were sitting in Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) on attending. seats glued to the television—at least, I think that they That makes me think that we are not all in this together, were glued to the television; they certainly seemed to be and it seems that only Opposition Members wish to in another world. I agree with the hon. Lady that we represent their constituents on this matter. need a solution of exactly the sort that she outlines. I wish to contribute to this debate specifically on the There is an overwhelming desire to end the postcode standard of care being provided to vulnerable elderly lottery for care. It is important that when people move people. I recently participated in a series of hard-hitting around the country, they should receive the same standard reports by Tyne Tees Television’s “North East Tonight” of care without their cases being constantly reassessed. programme. Tyne Tees’s findings on the standard of Recommendations made by the Law Commission for care provided in some care homes in the north-east were national eligibility criteria and carer assessments are a distressing and disturbing, and I am pleased to have the start in plotting a way forward. We must end the cost- opportunity today—again, I thank my hon. Friend for shunting and turf wars between health and social care securing the debate—to highlight some of those concerns over continuing care assessment and funding. Do the and present them directly to the Minister. Government still intend to allow the Law Commission I must point out that there are some fantastic care to draft a Bill to simplify the legislation, and if not why homes in the north-east, and that they have some dedicated not? staff and carers. However, the “North East Tonight” When Dilnot reports, we need to hear from Ministers reports were timely, being broadcast in the same week a genuine commitment to cross-party engagement on that a paper by Newcastle university’s institute for long-term funding. The Minister must realise that a ageing and health predicted a care home crisis unless voluntary insurance market, like that described by the there is major investment in the care system to support Prime Minister’s senior adviser this weekend, will not the rapidly increasing number of elderly people. be acceptable to a public worried about the workings of In 2010, there were 2.6 million people aged over 80, the discredited financial services sector. but by 2030 that figure is expected almost to double to As well as a new funding system, we need to review 4.8 million, with one in five needing regular care. The the quality standards of service regulation, with greater Newcastle university paper predicted that there will be emphasis being placed on the importance of providers an 82% increase in the number of care home places 9WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 10WH needed—that is 630,000 extra places between now and I am pleased that, as a result of the Tyne Tees 2030 just to cope with the demands of an increasingly investigation, the Care Quality Commission has agreed older population. to review its reports and to conduct unannounced In its investigations, Tyne Tees uncovered reports of assessments on the homes in questions. However, I am former care-home workers who were forced to leave concerned that it appears to have required a television their jobs. Those workers were given bad references, programme to spur the Care Quality Commission into which make future employment in the sector difficult, action. By placing their loved ones in residential care, because they had blown the whistle on the unacceptably people are putting huge amounts of trust in a service. poor standards of care. That included lifting the lid on They rightly expect that the Care Quality Commission cases of dangerously poor hygiene, of residents not is adequately monitoring, regulating and inspecting all being fed properly, of a lack of interaction between care homes on a frequent basis. staff and residents and of a total lack of stimulus for the people living there. The investigation also uncovered Anne Marie Morris: The hon. Lady has made some cases of appalling neglect of vulnerable care-home extraordinarily good points, and the Care Quality residents—according to relatives, it was often because Commission certainly needs more help to do an effective there were simply insufficient staff on duty to ensure job. Now that we have an outcome-based set of performance that their loved ones’ needs could be properly taken criteria, homes need to be given guidance on how to care of. comply with them. In my meetings with the Care Quality Tyne Tees also reported that many relatives were Commission, it says that it no longer gives advice, afraid of reporting concerns about the quality of care which means that it is an uphill battle for any home to being provided, because they thought that it might put ensure that it provides the quality of care that is needed their loved ones in greater danger. It is understandably and that it complies with the new criteria. difficult to complain about the poor standard of care being provided for a relative when, in the first instance, Catherine McKinnell: I agree that the Care Quality the complaint has to be made to the people who are Commission should take a proactive approach to improving providing it. the quality of care in our adult services. Tyne Tees invited me to view its findings. What Another worrying statistic is that on-site inspections immediately struck me, as a mother of young children, in care homes have fallen by 70% since the Care Quality was the contrast between the standard of care provided Commission was introduced in October 2010. That to young children in child care settings and the standard must worry anyone who lives in a care home or who has of care provided to vulnerable elderly people in care a loved one in a care home. homes. If Tyne Tees had uncovered similar cases of Will the Minister consider the following issues because neglect and fear of whistleblowing in nurseries in the they are crucial to the future provision of social care north-east, I am sure that there would have been a services? What further steps can the Government take national outrage, and rightly so, yet the treatment of to ensure a much greater level of protection and older people is too often shamefully brushed under the safeguarding for vulnerable elderly people in residential carpet. care? What measures will he take to ensure that the The Tyne Tees series of reports received unprecedented culture of fear that was spoken about by people feedback through e-mails and Facebook comments, participating in the Tyne Tees reports is broken down, and people wrote to Tyne Tees to back up its findings so that care workers, relatives and residents feel confident and report similar concerns. That shows the level of and safe in raising concerns about the standard of care? concern across the north-east—and, I am sure, across What steps is he taking to improve the status, pay and the country—about the situation. training of care home staff, who are doing an incredibly I recently had to intervene in support of a family difficult and important job? How will he ensure that the seeking help for Jessie Wiseman, an elderly constituent. swingeing cuts to local authority budgets over the coming She is 91 and blind, and she was found living in squalor years do not detrimentally impact further on the quality after ambulance workers paid a routine visit to her of social care being provided to elderly people, particularly property. Despite concerns having been raised by her at a time of ever-increasing demand? GP and her son about Jessie’s deteriorating condition, social care workers failed or act and she rapidly declined. 10.3 am That is why I welcome the recommendations in the recently published Law Commission report to introduce Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): It is a pleasure a set of statutory principles, a statutory basis for adult to be serving under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I safeguarding boards and a duty on councils to assess congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton carers and investigate adult safeguarding cases. North (Alex Cunningham) on securing this debate, which is timely not just because of the demonstrations Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): Is it not the case that we saw outside this place last week, but because we that the failings in adult care have gone on for a long are in the pause before the Health and Social Care Bill time, because, unlike child care, it has never had a comes back to Parliament. This debate is also a matter statutory basis? In arguing for such a basis to be put in of great personal passion. In 1989, thanks to the behaviour place, we may find that the Government say that this is of a previous Tory Government, I lost my job in the just more red tape and bureaucracy. coal industry and had to take up a job in care. Although I ended up in that sector almost by mistake, it was one Catherine McKinnell: I agree that that is a great of the best things that ever happened to me. I met some concern, which is why the Minister must take on board fantastic people who were dedicated to taking care of the deep concerns that are being expressed today. In any the frail and vulnerable people in the city that my hon. event, reforming the law will still not be enough. Friend represents. Sadly, in the early 1990s, a lot of that 11WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 12WH

[Mr David Anderson] the local authority took no responsibility for it. This story feeds into the debate on the worrying trends that care, commitment and dedication was lost. A series of can take place when services of this nature are put out cuts from the national Government decimated the care to the private sector. services across the whole country, and we see the same happening today. Mr Anderson: The privatisation of home care services I hope that the Health and Social Care Bill will be in this country has been a complete failure and a withdrawn in its entirety. Despite what they say, it is nightmare. I have represented home care workers for clear that the Government are leading us to a privatised many years and have seen the service deteriorate. We NHS. The experience of social care should show us had a dedicated work force who had a set list of clients what happens when we put services out to the private whom they went to see day in, day out. They built a sector. We are told that the White Paper has been relationship with that person and their family. When delayed. There may be some last-minute qualms from those jobs were contracted out, it was said, “We will the Government about how far they can go against send worker A on this day and worker B on that day.” public and professional opinion. I am surprised that the The home care worker lost that direct link with not just pause has happened now, because public and professional the family but the wider team within the authority. That opinion has always been against this Bill, even when it team would work together and take a holistic view and was first announced. Perhaps that opinion took a while work better for the person concerned. It is clear that to sink into the minds of the Government; it certainly services are being contracted out to save money. If we did not immediately sink into the minds of the Liberal save money, services will not be as good. Democrat members. It clearly has now, and thank God It is clear that we will see problems being stored up if for that. I hope that the Minister, along with his colleagues we lose public sector capacity in home care services. At in his party, will work with other people across society the moment, some 31,000 residents are being taken care to ensure that the Bill does not go any further and that of by Southern Cross Healthcare. Their homes now we do not see the same damage to the health service hang in the balance as a result of reckless business that we have seen to the social care services. practices and local commissioning, which has allowed Research carried out by Unison suggests that if recent the organisation to become so dominant in the market. trends continue, the last council-run residential care Southern Cross and Four Seasons—the big two in homes will have closed in 15 years’ time and there will residential care—have operated casino-style finances, be no local authority-employed home care staff left by and both are now teetering on the brink of collapse. A 2020. That is part and parcel of this Government’s drive toxic cloud, formed by irresponsible borrowing, weakening not just to boost the private sector but to deconstruct demand, council cuts, the slump in care home property public sector provision and give councils less and less values and the collapse of favourable credit facilities, responsibility. The anti-public sector phalanx in the now hangs over the heads of frail elderly people and Cabinet will, I am sure, be happy to see that happen and their families at a time of insecurity and when they need it will celebrate the disappearance of council-run services. real security. It will argue that the private sector always performs How has it come to this? How has RBS, a state-owned better, despite the fact that that has not been shown to bank, become the biggest shareholder in Four Seasons be the case. in exchange for writing off debts of £300 million? Would taxpayers’ money not be better spent directly on Alex Cunningham: My hon. Friend is talking specifically care homes run by democratically accountable councils, about local authority provision of care homes. Is it not rather than being tied up in byzantine financing more important that we invest in extra care facilities arrangements? and that we work with elderly people so that they can Across the social care market, research by Community live in their own homes, because that is what the vast Care suggests that one in five providers expect to go out majority of them want to do? of business in the next financial year. The regulator describes the home care market as a cottage industry of Mr Anderson: I agree with my hon. Friend. My own small, often barely viable providers alongside a few personal experience was in a purpose-built site that did giants such as Care UK, whose chairman kindly provided just that. We took in people for a week at a time for £21,000 to fund the personal office of the Secretary of respite and we also provided day care, but the individuals State for Health—perhaps that is one reason Care UK all lived in their own homes. Although that was cost- is doing so well. intensive in labour terms, the quality of care was good. If Southern Cross, Four Seasons or indeed local We took care of not just the individual but the needs of providers collapse, how will local authorities find new the family, and we built very close working relationships homes for people when they no longer run them? When with them. If we want to have quality care in this home care providers default, as they often have and country, we must bite the bullet and accept the fact that might in future, how will local authorities fill the gap if we have to pay for it. The previous Government accepted they have scrapped their own home care teams, which is that if we wanted quality health care, we had to increase happening up and down the country? the public payment into it. What about the quality? Care Quality Commission data show that privately provided care services are less Catherine McKinnell: In my contribution, I highlighted likely to be rated “good” or “excellent” and five times the worrying case in my constituency of Jessie Wiseman more likely to be rated “poor”. I know that the Government whose care at home was contracted out to a private care do not like targets or standards, but when their own provider. Some 15 visits took place over eight weeks commission is saying such things its message should be before she was discovered in an appalling state. However, listened to. Private providers consistently score lower on 13WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 14WH a range of indicators of quality and safety. When we strengthening the requirements on the types of incidents look at the employment practices of some providers, we and issues that must be reported to the regulator. These cannot be surprised that home care workers do not stay should again include medication errors, significant injuries, in their job. They are not paid for their travel time accident and emergency admissions, safeguarding referrals, between visits, and they have to provide their own matters where staff are subject to disciplinary action or mobile phones and pay for their uniforms. They suffer dismissal and unusually high staff turnover. Those are from underpayments, they often have zero-hour contracts all indicators of things that might be going wrong but and they sometimes have to pay towards the cost of they are not being recorded as they should be. A minimum administering their own time sheets. No wonder people frequency should be set for how often a service is do not see it as a job for the future or a career that it is visited. worth investing their time and talents in. We need real I have no doubt that the hon. Member for Newton regulation of employers to stamp out employment practices Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) is correct about the experience that have impacted so badly on home care users and, in the south-west, but it should be replicated across the through them, on staff. country because it would give people greater confidence Where are we today? We have a Government who that things were being done properly. There should be a want more from staff for less; who want more work by greater range of tools so that service users and employees fewer staff, because they are making 500,000 public can make their concerns known to people who can sector workers unemployed; who want more pension affect outcomes. We want to encourage people who contributions from less pay and for poorer pension want to blow the whistle where necessary, and give provision; and who want people to spend more time at people whose relatives are in care confidence that if work by making, in particular, women work until they they make a genuine complaint, the care will not be are 66 years old, with less time at home and in retirement. reduced. What did we get last week? The Chancellor has a new I hope the Minister will look at my points, provide red tape initiative. What is he going to do when people answers on the failures of private adult social care are losing their jobs? If there is a chance of redundancies providers and say whether anything can be done to being managed sensibly, what does he talk about? He make the CQC more representative. For years, adult wants more chances of people being sacked, with less social services have been regarded as the Cinderella chance of real support by limiting the time to consult. service, which is a disgrace. People are in care not People will have more chance of being made redundant because they want to be but because they have to be, so and less legal support to challenge decisions taken by I hope we will work together to try to make adult social their employer. care something this country can be proud of. The CQC sees a vacuum in regulation and in the checking of safety and quality of care. The CQC’s risk-based approach is resulting in a dramatic drop in 10.17 am inspections. A freedom of information request by Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Thank Community Care found a 70% drop in CQC site inspections you, Mr Brady, for calling me. It is a pleasure to serve in the past year alone, at a time when more people are in under your chairmanship. need of care. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton Anne Marie Morris: I thank the hon. Gentleman for North (Alex Cunningham) on securing this debate on being so generous in giving way. The statistics are an issue of huge importance to many of our constituents, interesting, but care homes in my constituency of Newton who are among the most vulnerable in society, including Abbot complain that more visits are being made. I older people, disabled people and carers—people for spoke to the CQC just this week and it said it was whom adult social care services are an essential source making on-site visits to every home within its purview of support in their daily lives. in the south-west. There might be a regional difference, My hon. Friends have eloquently and passionately but in the south-west, where there are a huge number of articulated the real and serious concerns about adult elderly people, the number of visits is going up, not social care services, but I want to focus on the importance down. of the social work profession in building adult social care services fit for the future. Mr Anderson: I thank the hon. Lady for that. More Labour Members are pleased that the Government inspections are good: we want inspections that work; have proceeded with the work that Labour started on otherwise, we will get into the problems that my hon. reforming the social work profession, and I welcome Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North the Government’s decision to continue to support the (Catherine McKinnell) mentioned. work of the Social Work Reform Board. As a consequence Staff and service users fear that there is an over-reliance of cuts to budgets for adult social care services, it now on provider self-assessment and secondary sources rather feels as though the very future of social work with than direct inspections. There are fewer indicators and adults is under threat. Councils across the country are data sources for adult social care providers than there proposing deep cuts to the number of registered social are for NHS providers, yet the methodology is common. workers they employ, to be replaced with a range of Alongside a “lighter touch” approach from the regulator, staff employed in roles such as care co-ordinators and local authorities are cutting quality assurance departments, support workers. I know that the staff are committed which, as Community Care showed, means fewer local and caring, but, like my hon. Friends, my concern is checks on the quality and safety of care being provided. that this restructuring is prompted not by seeking to Some of the changes that the unions and workers at improve the quality of care but by the need to reduce the CQC would like to see, which I agree require serious spending on salaries. Like my hon. Friends, I am fearful and urgent consideration, include reinstating and of the consequences of this loss of capacity. It represents 15WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 16WH

[Lilian Greenwood] enabling rehabilitation and preventing readmissions. A recent survey by Counsel and Care stated: a serious loss of skill and expertise in the work force, at “Hospital social workers are being bypassed by health professionals, a time when people’s physical, mental and emotional who in some cases are dealing directly with the family rather than needs and family dynamics are becoming ever-more using the social worker service to plan discharge...The hospital complex. teams can sometimes function as ‘brokers’, trying to discharge older people in to care homes themselves without proper assessments It is hard to escape the impression that social workers being undertaken by social workers.” in adult services are, as my hon. Friend the Member for Does the Minister agree that NHS trusts should ensure Blaydon (Mr Anderson) said, the Cinderella service—the that social work is represented in their management and poor relations. The media attention given to tragic governance structures to prevent such practices? Health deaths of children as a result of abuse has served to employers need to engage much more closely with the sharpen public focus on children’s social work, but the social work reform agenda, accepting responsibility for consequences of social workers in adult services being playing their part in its implementation. poorly managed, supported, valued, trained and developed are just as critical, as my hon. Friend the Member for Adult social care services are vital and will be increasingly Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) needed in the future, as my hon. Friends have pointed pointed out. Excessive case loads, defective IT systems out. Social work faces a number of serious and pressing and too much paperwork are also facets of adult social issues, and I look forward to hearing how the Minister workers’ daily lives, and they get in the way of those plans to address them. workers’ ability to practise effectively. The Government have said that they have given the 10.23 am Children’s Workforce Development Council £79.9 million Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): for social work initiatives in 2011 and 2012. There is It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, work to develop an advanced professional status in Mr Brady. children’s social work to enhance the development of those who want to progress in front-line practice rather I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton than in management, and the Munro review of barriers North (Alex Cunningham) on securing this debate on to direct social work with children and families has an incredibly important issue. It is a great cause for come up with some excellent recommendations—all to celebration that people now live longer, but it brings be welcomed. Does the Minister understand, however, new challenges. Our society—and our Government—should that the lack of similar investment and activity in adult be judged on how we look after our most vulnerable social work is leaving practitioners feeling overlooked, people, and I want to focus my contribution on the care and has knock-on consequences for morale and future of the group of people who tend to be the most vulnerable: recruitment and retention? What plans does he have to the elderly. address those concerns? My hon. Friend said that there is a large, sustained My trade union, Unison, represents 40,000 social increase in the percentage of people needing long-term workers, and has developed a 10-point plan for social care, and the projection is that the figure will continue work within adult services. I support its call for a “clear to rise. As has been pointed out, the standards of care political commitment” through “policy and regulation in care homes vary greatly, not only across the country channels”: but within regions and sometimes within cities—there is even variation across my constituency of Wolverhampton “to strengthen the role of social work in adult services” North East. My grandma is in a great care home in covering the neighbouring Staffordshire, which provides wonderful care, and I want to pay tribute to the care workers there, “central importance of social work in care and support of adults, and…halting the development of ‘social work on the cheap’.” and to those across the country in good care homes. We know, however, that that is more the exception than the Is the Minister willing to give such a commitment? rule. A survey last year of social workers in adult services I am very concerned about the drop in the number of found that two thirds of respondents felt that the time inspections of care homes by the Care Quality Commission. they had available to spend with each service user was I echo the questions asked by my hon. Friend the not sufficient to meet their needs, and that nearly a Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine quarter felt that the time available was very insufficient. McKinnell) about how the Government can guarantee An overwhelming 96% of respondents believed that too that care home standards across the country are at least much of their time was spent on paperwork, and only a good—not poor—and how they can stop those who third believed that joint working with the NHS was seem to want to make a quick buck out of the industry effective in their area. They reported structural difficulties, and ensure that care home staff are given basic protection such as remote management, the marginalisation of rights and paid properly. social work, and the duplication of paperwork required I want to turn to the pressing issue of the financing of because of incompatible IT systems. Although only care, which the previous Labour Government tried to 3.5% of social workers in England are directly employed deal with perhaps a little too late. Thousands of people by the NHS, many more are seconded to the service across the country have to sell their homes to fund from councils, but the status, standing and representation long-term care, and the cross-party talks regrettably of social work in the NHS is virtually invisible. broke down before the general election, with the Social work plays a vital role in mental health services, Conservatives preferring to score political points and addressing the social needs and safeguarding the rights publish posters about a “death tax” rather than engage of patients, and hospital social work is essential in seriously with this most important issue. However, I 17WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 18WH congratulate the Liberal Democrats, in particular their issue is more important than party politics, and we must then health spokesperson, the hon. Member for North work together not just to find a solution but to implement Norfolk (Norman Lamb), who stayed in the talks and it. was willing to reach some kind of consensus. During the comprehensive spending review, the I know that the Minister will not want to answer Government flourished the fact that they were giving an some of my questions because the Government are additional £2 billion for social care, but a few months awaiting the outcome of the Dilnot commission, but I later, local authority budgets were slashed by 8%. Given urge him to consider the shortcomings of a voluntary that social care is top-tier councils’ biggest area of contribution model. Experts in the insurance industry discretionary spending, it was simply inconceivable that have pointed out that people are unlikely to take out it would not be hit. insurance 30 years before they might need the care, and The Local Government Group and the Association international evidence suggests that such a system is of Directors of Adult Social Services both raised concerns unworkable. France has the largest voluntary insurance about the implications for social care of the CSR local market for long-term care but there is only a 15% government settlement, warning that the extra £2 billion take-up, so if the Government go for that option, which was simply not enough to meet demand. They argued was in the Conservative manifesto—I am waiting to see that the spending gap during the period was likely to be what the coalition will do—it is almost as good as doing between £3.5 billion and £4 billion due to increasing nothing. If we introduced the model and people did not demand from our ageing population, which will add take up the care, we might as well have done nothing another 4% a year to social care costs in upcoming at all. years. My hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North said Of course, some efficiency savings can be made, but in his closing remarks that this is a matter for generations they will never be enough to meet the shortfall. Personalised to come, and it is most pressing that we have a system budgets and various reforms might be able to save some that enables the Government to provide care for the money, but the Minister should listen to those who elderly in the years to come. I said at the start of my know, such as ADASS and the Local Government speech that this is a great cause for celebration, but it Group, when they say that they will be billions of brings a new challenge, and I urge the Minister to pounds short when it comes to social care. In those consider the value of making this a cross-party issue circumstances, they will not be able to protect the most and ensuring cross-party consensus on the financing of vulnerable in our society. The much-vaunted £2 billion long-term care for the elderly. is simply not enough, especially as it is not ring-fenced. Will the Minister tell us whether the whole £2 billion, 10.28 am half of it or a quarter will be spent on social care? Can he do anything if not all of it is? Furthermore, can he Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) confirm that he does not know whether it will be spent (Lab): I do not believe I have served under your or not? chairmanship before, Mr Brady, and it is a pleasure to Not only are the Government cutting back on social do so. care through local authorities under the cloak of localism, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton they are no longer doing centralised assessment of North (Alex Cunningham) on securing the debate, and adult social care provision. In other words, they simply on his excellent contribution and the moving examples do not know what is going on. It is extraordinary that that he put before us. The truth is that not enough time unprecedented cuts are being made at a time when local is spent in the House on this fundamental issue, which is authority provision of social care is no longer being vitally important to many of our constituents; but we monitored, yet the Government steadfastly maintain have had a very good debate today. that there need be no cuts to front-line services. There seem to be two issues here: the structural The Secretary of State for Communities and Local problems and the cuts. My hon. Friend the Member for Government said that Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) “cutting front line jobs and hitting front line services isn’t inevitable—it touched on standards of care and on ensuring proper doesn’t have to be an option at all”, status for social care workers. My hon. Friend the and the Minister said: Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) made a very important political analysis of the ongoing problems, “It is wrong to scare people about cuts. The coalition Government has prioritised social care—the spending review announced significant and my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South extra funding for social care for each of the next four years, (Lilian Greenwood) demonstrated her great expertise in increasing to an extra £2 billion investment in 2014-15…This this area. extra money means no councils need to reduce access to social My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton care”. North East (Emma Reynolds) yet again raised the It is simply not good enough for the Minister to put importance of ensuring a long-term solution, and expressed his fingers in his ears and sing “La la la.” The truth is our continued regret that this issue was essentially bombed that cuts in social care are being made now. Although before the last election by the Conservative party, which he might not know about them, I can tell him, because decided that it was better to make cheap political points ADASS, the BBC and I have done surveys. Last month, than for us all to work together. I assure the Minister I surveyed directors of adult social care in England that when the Dilnot commission reports we will not be and got 61 replies, representing a 40% response. I appreciate emulating the behaviour of the Opposition at that time, the detailed responses by 27 Conservative councils, and that we will approach the matter with an open 29 Labour councils and four Liberal Democrat councils; mind. We need a fair and sustainable solution, and we that was, obviously, before the last local elections. The want to be able to work together on that. In the end, the responses showed that 88% were increasing their charges, 19WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 20WH

[Emily Thornberry] driven into the heart of the NHS. What we need is co-operation and collaboration. We need health and 16% were increasing eligibility criteria and 7% were social care to work more closely together. considering charging more in the longer term. Many If the Government are to pause, let them pause and were closing day centres and care homes, 54% were think about that. Let them pause and ensure that, for cutting the voluntary sector and a further 24% were example, we can keep the elderly out of hospital for as considering it for the future. long as possible by allowing social services to provide As predicted by everyone who knows, cuts are happening. proper social care, and that once someone is in hospital, Councils have not been able to meet increasing demographic they can get out quickly. That is the only fair way to pressure, which ADASS believes amounts to £425 million treat people. Frankly, it also saves a great deal of money. in 2011-12 alone due to the rising number of older If the Government spent more time, energy and resources people and people with learning disabilities needing on solving such issues and a little less on introducing substantial support. The ADASS survey shows that, far competition into the national health service, we would from increasing spending to meet rising needs, local all be a lot better off. I know that in his heart, the authorities in England have cut adult social care spending Minister agrees, but he has unfortunately found himself by £1 billion. in the difficult position of having to defend this We have heard in this debate about the terrible extraordinarily awful Bill. consequences of cuts to front-line services for the most I may have argued those points when the Bill was vulnerable in our community. The fact of the matter is discussed in Committee, and I am glad to hear that that as a result, an elderly woman might no longer get ADASS now agrees with me in general. I am also glad up at breakfast time but at lunch. She might not have an to hear that the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr advocate, but we have a duty to ensure that such people Dorrell), never one to allow a bandwagon to pass him are protected. It is not good enough for the Minister to by, said that the legislation should be rethought: remain in Whitehall saying that there need be no cuts to “A clear commitment should be written into the Bill to achieve front-line services. He must listen to the reality of what full institutional and managerial integration of the NHS and is going on. Not to address the funding shortages in adult social care in England.” local authority social care is reckless and wrong. The Select Committee Chair agrees with us as well. Funding cuts also mean that local authorities cannot I ask the Minister to reconsider funding and the invest in preventive services, so the cuts being made now reality and to give us an undertaking that he will no will have knock-on effects in the long term. If someone longer make false claims that there need be no cuts to does not have a regular visit—if their shopping is not front-line services, and that he will do something about done for them, or if they are not got up in the morning the matter. I also ask that the Health and Social Care on time—they are more likely to go downhill faster and Bill be worthy of its name, if it is not killed off completely. to end up in hospital. Some 52% of respondents to my It needs major change so that social care can be integrated survey said that the cuts adversely affected the development properly into health care. Worthy words are simply not of new preventive services. Services that could reduce enough to achieve that. the need for long-term care and promote independence are among the first to go, but that only increases the 10.39 am strain on health and social care services in the long run. It is irresponsible of the Minister to continue to say The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul that no cuts need be made to front-line services. Will he Burstow): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, admit that he was wrong not to listen to the warnings Mr Brady. I congratulate the hon. Member for Stockton and to say that front-line services would not be cut? Will North (Alex Cunningham) on his luck in securing the he also admit that efficiency savings alone cannot deliver debate and on his choice of subject. the huge cuts being forced on local authorities? What is I agree with the hon. Member for Islington South he doing to increase the provision of social care now and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) on one point at least, that he has heard the truth about what is going on? which is that social care is not debated and discussed in The holy grail, as we all agree, is integration of social this House anywhere near enough. I speak with the care and health, but the difficulty is that the Government experience of 13 years in opposition and as one of the are, on one hand, cutting local authorities extensively few who has carried the candle for social care and and, on the other, taking the health service by the advanced the arguments, which I have heard others ankles, turning it upside down and shaking it hard. make today, on the need to focus on quality and to Those are not ideal circumstances for the two bodies to make sure that we do well by and develop the work integrate properly. The Bill calls itself the Health and force. I shall return to some of those points. Social Care Bill, but it contains precious little social I agree that the long-term reform of our social care care. There is a great deal of talk about integration, but system should no longer be deferred to the long term. It words are not enough. requires our full attention now. We need to make sure When it released the results of its survey recently, that, during the life of this Parliament and, I hope, with ADASS recommended that, as the Government are the assistance of people of good will from all sides, we pausing to reconsider the Health and Social Care Bill, can secure lasting reform of both the law and the perhaps they might pause long enough to hear the funding arrangements for social care. Our constituents results of the Dilnot inquiry and radically reconsider expect no less of us at this time. their plans for long-term care. If they want to be radical The hon. Member for Stockton North began by on health and social care, that is the area of need. We do referring to last week’s march and lobby. A number of not need the fundamentally misguided Health and Social constituents lobbied me, and I met several of them at Care Bill as it is drafted. We do not need competition my surgery last weekend to discuss their issues. They 21WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 22WH have real concerns, to which the Government are listening McKinnell) has outlined some of those facts. The hon. and want to respond properly. We share a common Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) goal, which is to maximise personal independence to has rightly said that, while we should be concerned allow people of all abilities to fulfil their potential. That about the challenge, we should not be so concerned as has to be the common goal of both our benefits system to forget to celebrate the fact that we have an ageing and our social care system. It is certainly this Government’s population—a population that is living for longer and, ambition to achieve that. in many cases, living healthily for longer as well. We I do not belittle in any way, shape or form the stories also have changing societal expectations and a greater of the lives of individuals and the impacts of decisions expectation of being able to make choices for oneself, to made about spending in different parts of the country. be in control of one’s own life and to be able to have The hon. Gentleman has rightly set out those individual high standards of support to facilitate that. We have and personal impacts. However, I will offer him a financial challenges. We have a structural deficit. For reflection on the past 13 years and, indeed, before that. every £4 that this Government spend today, £1 is borrowed, The stories that he has told could have been told and and we are spending £120 million every day on interest have been told over the past 13 years, during which time charges. we have seen a gradual tightening of eligibility criteria. Reference has been made to the survey by the Chartered Indeed, in 2008 the Learning Disability Coalition published Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy for the a survey that showed that 72% of what were Labour BBC. I have to say that, of the many surveys that have authorities at that time anticipated—indeed, they were been produced, including that of the hon. Member for budgeting for this—tightening their eligibility criteria Islington South and Finsbury, it is probably the least for access to services from “moderate”need to “substantial” robust of the lot. There we go—I give the hon. Lady need or even to “critical” need. I will discuss the reality credit that her survey must be more robust than that of in a moment. CIPFA, which did not provide a great deal of detail and Although the hon. Gentleman has rehearsed some did not ask the right questions. Indeed, those who important points, what I did not hear was a scintilla of answered the questions were not all social services humility, a suggestion of any doubt, or a slight recognition authorities, and they included things in their figures that we are where we are at least in part because of that are not part of social care. Even the Association of actions taken over the past 13 years. It would have been Directors of Adult Social Services has criticised that good to hear just a little indication that we are where we piece of work. are because of what has already happened. On attempting to address and mitigate the impact of the reductions that the Government have had to make Alex Cunningham: Will the Minister give way? in formula grant over the past year, we have strived to mitigate it in those areas with the greatest needs to make sure that we have increased the support in those Paul Burstow: In a moment. If the hon. Gentleman areas, relative to others. will let me make my point, I will be happy for him to The hon. Member for Stockton North talked about attempt to rebut it. There are things that did not happen high mortality figures in constituencies such as his own. over the past 13 years. We did not get to a position Again, we have to dwell on why that is still the case after where we had a clear statutory basis for adult safeguarding. so many years, why we still have that legacy, why we We did not get to a position where we had consistency have to continue to address those challenges, and why of regulation, because the regulator was constantly this Government, through their commitments in public being abolished and reformed. Funding has been inadequate health and elsewhere, are determined to make progress. for many years, and we have seen a failure, for various reasons over 13 years, to find a way forward that has Despite the deficit legacy, we have taken some decisions. secured consent for funding. Members have forecast that I would refer to them, and I make no apology for that. We set out in the spending review in October how we would ensure sufficient resource Alex Cunningham: The Minister said that I did not in the system to allow decision makers at a local authority show any humility, but I specifically said that the previous level to protect social care, if they decide that that is Government and others before them could have done their priority. We have a good settlement in that context. much more on social care. I specifically said that, and it An additional £2 billion will come to social care by is important that that remains on the record. In the past 2014-15, and that money is getting through. In January, 20 or 30 years, no Government have addressed the fact £162 million was put into social care via the national that so many more older people and so many more health service, which is something that we were asked to young disabled people will require tremendous support. do and which we have done to ensure that social care I hope that the Minister will acknowledge that we all gets additional support. Moreover, there is £648 million need to do this together. of additional funding from April this year. That money is going to social services departments and is being Paul Burstow: Yes; we can build on that point. The transferred by the NHS for that very purpose. A further Government recognise the importance of social care £1.3 billion is supporting the transfer of funding for the and the fact that it lets people live independently, which commissioning of learning disabilities. is what it should be about. It should be about enabling Those sums constitute the biggest transfer of hard people to live well, to be safe, to continue to do things cash from the NHS to social care ever. It is not only that we take for granted and to be active participants in about supporting social care, but about breaking out of civic life. silos. It is about using cash to get people to start having As has been rehearsed in this debate, there are big those dialogues that are so important to achieve the challenges. There are demographic challenges and the collaborative behaviour and integration that are essential hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine to delivering better services for our citizens. 23WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 24WH

[Paul Burstow] The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North described the unacceptable quality of care in some care On top of that is the £530 million that will come homes and the inquiry that was carried out by a local through the formula grant. I will not micro-manage, broadcaster. She is right to describe some of the shocking from this Chamber or my desk in Whitehall, every stories that she has heard and to decry how older people single social services authority and tell them how to use all too often get relegated in the headlines compared that money. It must be their decision, based on need, with scandals over the care of children. She talked and they are accountable for such decisions. about the Care Quality Commission and the fact that it has changed its inspection model. I respectfully suggest that the basis for the legislation that introduced essential Emily Thornberry: The Minister has anticipated what standards and has led to a more risk-based model for I am about to say. First, if money is being transferred inspection was debated in the House not under this from the health service to social care, I presume that it is Administration, but under the previous one. We have being done by primary care trusts, which are at the same not abandoned the changes the previous Government time being abolished. Is he confident, therefore, that started or thrown the whole regulatory framework up in that money is properly accounted for by the Department the air yet again and caused chaos, as often happened of Health, given the current chaos reigning within the in the past 13 years. We are trying to ensure that that health service? Secondly, will he tell us how much of the model delivers. money given to local authorities is actually being spent on social care in the way in which it is supposed to be? The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North asked about skills and training. Those issues were also touched on by the hon. Member for Blaydon Paul Burstow: The answer to the first question is yes. (Mr Anderson). The Government are working with The answer to the second question is that I will write to Skills for Care, which will produce work force, retention the hon. Lady with further detail. However, it is certainly and personal assistance strategies to address the sorts of the case that money is being agreed between the NHS concerns that the hon. Lady and others have mentioned. and social services for the provision of social care I will publish those shortly. services that support health and underpin prevention. I would also like to refer to the work of the King’s Catherine McKinnell: I want to reassert the point Fund, which is reputable body that is often cited by that, regardless of the changes put in place during the Opposition Members. It has confirmed that, if we take past 13 years under the previous Administration, we are into account efficiency savings, there is no funding gap moving into unprecedented territory in terms of the for social care during the spending review period. Of funding given to local authorities for supporting social course, the grounds on which some councils have made care within the community. That is the context in which their budget judgments mean that some have acted to some of the changes we are demanding and requesting protect social care through innovation and the redesign today need to be considered. of services. Other councils have decided to change their eligibility or charging policies. Paul Burstow: I have rehearsed some of the findings from the ADASS survey, which shows that although the Reference has been made to the ADAS survey, which changes are tough, they are not as unprecedented as the shows that social care spending as a share of council past 13 years of experience would suggest. spending has increased. The hon. Member for Islington The hon. Member for Blaydon talked about the South and Finsbury has referred to savings that local mixed economy of provision in social care and lamented authorities are making. For every pound of savings that the passing of a time when a public service offer was the will be made from social care this year, 70p is a result of almost exclusive way in which social care was provided. efficiency and doing things differently and only 20p—this He harked back to a golden age that has passed and is still something that I regret—is a result of actual that may never have truly existed. I am not certain reductions in service. whether I heard him describe a solution or route map Yes, eligibility has been tightened, but that is not new. that would get us back to the past that he hankers after. As I have mentioned, a survey carried out by the If he has one, perhaps he would share it on another Learning Disability Coalition shows that those tightenings occasion. He also talked about Southern Cross. As a in eligibility criteria have been part and parcel of local Minister, I am, of course, only too well aware of the government decisions for many years. Indeed, the ADASS issues with which that company is currently grappling. survey shows that, when this Government came into Above all else, I am concerned to safeguard the interests office last year, 101 local authorities were already limiting of the residents who live in those homes. That should be eligibility to services to those with “substantial” need. on our minds whenever we talk about Southern Cross Twelve months later, 116 local authorities are using and its prospects. We need to ensure that we secure its “substantial” need and just six are using “critical” need. future for its residents. It is worth looking behind those headlines, because some councils are changing the eligibility criteria, but Mr Anderson: I agree with the Minister entirely. I also they are reinvesting the savings they make from that agree that the previous Government did by no means decision into preventive services, such as telecare and get things right for 13 years, which is also true of other giving people personal budgets. For example, Southwark previous Governments. My worry is that we are being council has reviewed the needs of people with learning railroaded by a cuts-led agenda. In the past, we at least disabilities and is changing its services through the had a safety net of council provision, but that will no introduction of personal budgets, supported living and longer exist. Therefore, when organisations such as providing more control and dignity. It is saving resources, Southern Cross go belly up, there will be no one to pick but it is also giving people a better quality of life. up the pieces. 25WH Social Care Services17 MAY 2011 Social Care Services 26WH

Paul Burstow: My point is that when we came into Emily Thornberry: On the issue of confusion, the office, 101 local authorities were already limiting access Minister spoke earlier about the King’s Fund and said to services on the basis of “substantial” need. We that its view is that cuts will not be made to social care. I should not pretend that some overarching change is have just checked that, and I believe that the King’s now happening. Fund has said that there will be a shortfall of £1.2 billion Let me move briefly to the question of the future, by 2014-15. which was also a key part of the debate. I am under no illusion that although the settlement that we secured for Paul Burstow: The King’s Fund has stated that but, social care is good, it is only a bridge and a sticking if one reads on, the document concerned states that if plaster in terms of the future. The social care system efficiencies of 3.5% are made, there is no need for a needs radical reconstruction surgery, and its funding funding gap to open up. needs be seen as what it is—a big issue. My ministerial mailbag shows that it is one of the biggest matters On social care law reform, our current legislation is about which people write to their MPs, who in turn the product of 60 years of piecemeal legislation that write to me. There is a real and understandable grievance looks back to 19th-century poor law principles. A Law out there about paying for social care. People feel shock Commission report makes 76 recommendations and and bewilderment, and they are appalled by the current provides a firm foundation on which we can build. The system because, after paying taxes all their lives, they Government intend to publish a White Paper later this have to pay for care. That leaves a bitter taste in the year and to introduce a Bill in the second parliamentary mouths of both those who use the services and, in many Session. cases, their families. Our intentions are clear. During the life of this I agree with the hon. Member for Stockton North Parliament, we want both the law on social care and its that we need to change. That is why the Dilnot commission, funding to be reformed. We want that reform to be which this Government established last year, offers us based on a vision in which there is a greater personalisation hope and a way forward. It has been asked to consider of social services, a more preventive focus on how those whether there should be a fair partnership between the services are provided and a real attempt to deliver state and the citizen. The prize that we could grasp is around outcomes. We want services that are more innovative peace of mind and a sustainable system for the future. I and that are based around growth, telecare and involving will ensure that the points made by the hon. Member other providers. There also needs to be a partnership for Wolverhampton North East are passed on to the between the individual, the state and health and social commission, so that they form part of its considerations. care providers. That is how we can secure the future of It is not sufficient to reform funding alone, because we social care and make a real difference for every one of also need a modern statute founded on 21st-century our constituents. I thank the hon. Member for Stockton principles of self-determination, reciprocity and responsibility. North for initiating the debate, and I hope that we will The current law is a mess: it is confusing; it lacks have more debates about social care than have taken coherence; and it is hard to understand. place during the past 13 years. 27WH 17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 28WH

Religious Education and a public petition signed by more than 115,000 members of the public. That petition was promoted by the REACT campaign, which stands for putting religious 10.59 am education at the heart of humanities, and it has successfully Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I am privileged to united religious leaders from a number of faith groups, raise the role of religious education in schools under including Christians, Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs. your chairmanship, Mr Brady. A number of colleagues Why is RE important? It is important because it is a have joined me for today’s debate; I thank them. subject taught distinctly from other humanities subjects. First, may I state that I know that the Secretary of It is quite different from the RE, or scripture, that many State for Education takes very seriously the issue of of us of a certain age may have studied by learning enabling every child—whatever their background—to passages from the Bible by rote. Admittedly, that sometimes achieve their full potential by promoting the highest produced unintended consequences—some humorous, quality of educational standards? He is doing a sterling such as the answer in an exam paper that an RE teacher job in that regard and I thank him for that. told me about. In response to the question, “Who was I turn specifically to religious education in schools. most disappointed at the return of the prodigal son?”, a Hon. Members will all be aware that RE in schools is, pupil wrote, “the fatted calf”. and has long been, a compulsory subject. The Government Today’s RE has moved on, as I know from closely do not intend to change that. That is good. If RE is looking at the subject with one of my sons, who is a important enough to be compulsory, why not include it GCSE RE student. Today’s RE is not about promoting in the English baccalaureate? In late 2010, the Secretary one religion, but about understanding many and of State announced that the new E-bac certificate will understanding many other aspects of life from a faith be awarded to students who achieve grades A* to C in perspective. My son tells me that RE includes topics English, maths, science, a foreign language and a humanity. such as environmental issues, discrimination, law and Of the humanities, the choice is history or geography. punishment. It also includes an understanding of the Why not add RE to the humanities choices? cultural and religious values of different peoples and In response to that question, the Secretary of State faiths. One sixth former, who recently studied GCSE has answered: RE along with total of 9 GCSEs, told me: “because it is already a compulsory subject. One intention of the “it was the only subject in which I got to discuss current affairs English baccalaureate is to encourage wider take-up of geography and responses to them.” and history in addition to, rather than instead of, compulsory RE.” —[Official Report, 7 February 2011; Vol. 523, c. 10.] Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Perhaps That sounds laudable, but there are serious concerns RE has become so wishy-washy that it is not worth that that will produce unintended consequences. Since preserving. school league tables will now take into account the percentage of students awarded the certificate, the E-bac is increasingly being emphasised as the primary qualification Fiona Bruce: I dispute that. My hon. Friend would, I for 16-year-olds, and the teaching of RE in schools think, respect my view, on which I shall elaborate now. risks being undermined. Indeed, according to new research Religious issues are frequently at the top of any news by the National Association of Teachers of Religious agenda. Today’s RE helps young people make sense of Education, one in three schools, in a survey of nearly that and wider world affairs. It also promotes community 800, say that they will significantly reduce the amount cohesion, as it allows young people, who are growing up of resources and numbers of teachers dedicated to in a diverse society, to discuss and understand the views teaching RE in the approaching academic year. In a and opinions of people whose beliefs and values differ recent joint letter published in The Daily Telegraph, from their own, in the safety of the classroom environment. leading academics revealed that 45% of university teacher One RE student told me: training places in RE have been cut. That means that “many societies and cultures have strong religious foundations non-specialist teachers will be left to teach the subject. and understanding their methodology and thought was very One reason for varying quality in RE provision in the helpful. I thoroughly enjoyed it.” past—less so today—has been the lack of RE teachers Enjoyment is key to learning well. We all learn better who are subject specialists. There has been considerable when we enjoy it, and GCSE RE is popular. In the past progress in increasing their numbers, due in part to the 15 years, the number of students taking GCSE RE has popularity of the subject at GCSE and A-level. If that quadrupled from 113,000 to approximately 460,000. progress is reversed, the overall quality of RE teaching, The Archbishop of Westminster, the Most Reverend even as a compulsory subject, could suffer. The status Vincent Nichols, has said: of the E-bac means that, already, fewer pupils are “In an increasingly confusing world, Religious Studies gives opting to study RE, as discussions that I have had in my young people perhaps their only opportunity to engage seriously constituency have shown. not only with the most profound philosophical questions concerning Why is RE so important that so many people are human existence and the nature of reality, but also with the most asking for a reconsideration and for its inclusion as a fundamental ethical dilemmas of our day”. core E-bac humanities subject? Before I explore that Where else will our young people obtain that? To put it question, I should say that the many people I refer to more grittily, I cite a real life example from a teacher of include 100 MPs, who have signed an early-day motion almost 30 years’ standing, who has taught near where I tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne have lived for much of my life. She has been a deputy (Stephen Lloyd), calling for just that. That was doubtless head teacher with management responsibility for developing prompted in large part, as I have been myself, by spiritual, moral, social and cultural values policy in constituents’ letters, representations from local schools schools. She recalls: 29WH Religious Education17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 30WH

“On the day after 9/11, a 12-year-old Muslim girl ran to me in “under the new system if RE is not part of the E-bacc, I can tears saying that she had been taunted, chased and threatened on foresee that schools will no longer want to pay exam fees as it will her way to school. Other pupils and youngsters, many older than not be acknowledged in the new targets or E-bacc. Pupils will be her were accusing her of being responsible for the destruction of forced to study either geography or history and will not have the twin towers and multiple murders. She was identifiable because space on their timetable to study a full GCSE in RE. Whilst RE of the colour of her skin and she wore a scarf. Up until that day, remains a compulsory subject, it will have to be taught, but it will there was no evidence of…any problem. She had received interest be relegated and in pupils, parents and many teachers’ eyes, it will and questioning, but she never experienced hatred. Overnight, the soon become the Cinderella subject it was many years ago.” media’s coverage and the need to find someone to blame meant RE, even as a compulsory subject, might be increasingly that she became a target. She was the only Muslim child in a mostly white school. There had to be an immediate response to merged with PSHE—personal, social and health identify the main bullies, but for many weeks, through RE, there education—and citizenship at key stage 4, something I was specific teaching about Islam and Islamophobia. The outcome understand Ofsted does not appear unduly concerned was positive, with the girl being accepted and becoming a senior about. If those subjects are merged, to overcome a prefect who was respected and valued by others.” timetable or time issue, staff might not be specialist RE Cultural diversity is explored through teaching RE. teachers, and the more media-focused or sensational Pupils are able to share their beliefs, arrange church topics within PSHE and citizenship might dominate. visits, demonstrate how a turban is worn, demonstrate Scaling back might also affect the post of RE adviser, a how others pray, bring in homemade food for festivals role that ensures that appropriate importance is given to and share the meaning of specific rituals. As well as the content of the RE syllabus in response to the needs promoting community cohesion and giving young people of a local community, taking into account such factors an insight into their own and other cultures and heritage, as the numbers of a particular religious or ethnic group. RE also supports pupils in articulating moral judgments RE might not be taught or advised on by specialists and dealing with misfortune, death, loss, and issues in to the standard of other subjects, and fewer students their neighbourhoods and workplaces. It prepares them and teachers might be able to understand and communicate for adult life. the impact of religion on culture, society and current As one teacher told me: affairs. Without that guidance, young people might find “good RE teaching can promote positive values for young people it more difficult to cope with the more difficult moral, and society.” philosophical or cultural challenges that they find today; She cited the example of James Delaney, a twelve-year-old to form good relationships with others, especially those boy from a Traveller family, who was murdered in of a different cultural background; or to maintain Ellesmere Port in Cheshire. She speaks from a close secure values and beliefs enabling them to make good perspective, with experience of teaching in the boy’s rather than bad choices, in particular in early adulthood. area. She said: It is also argued that without RE, the influence of simplistic or extreme sources of information on religion “Traveller children often have strong religious views…however, could increase, at the risk of greater stereotyping and if they move into communities, there can be hostility…often their children in school…are exposed to bullying in response to what prejudice; a less tolerant society might ensue. they may hear their parents and other adults saying. Getting If faith schools continued to prioritise GCSE RE, pupils to empathise and ‘step into the shoes’ of a family whose they might fall down the school league tables. Some 12-year-old son was murdered…because he was a traveller, proved schools might even stop offering GCSE RE as a separate to be a powerful way of challenging perceptions and wrongly held subject or course, putting resources into priority E-bac views, as children should not be held to blame for things their parents do.” subjects to raise or maintain the school ranking. Students who devoted time to study GCSE RE could be penalised, RE lessons also develop transferrable skills such as as it does not qualify as an E-bac subject. critical analysis, essay structure and general written and verbal language skills. Those benefit other subjects as What am I asking the Minister to do? Primarily to pupils learn how to express and articulate their views protect, support and sustain the increasing improvement and, equally importantly, to respect those of others. of religious education in our schools, ideally by including Questioning, reasoning, empathy, philosophy, values the GCSE full course on religious studies as one of the and insight are all highly valuable skills fostered within humanities choices in the E-bac, in addition to geography RE learning. One student told me: and history. Students could be able to opt for any one of them, or, under a changed specification, to take two of “It focused my thinking on areas of abstract thought, it improved and developed my analytical skills and logical reasoning”— the subjects, so that history and geography retained the same status as currently proposed under the E-bac. quite powerful points, in his own words, from a student Whether or not the Minister responds favourably to who has recently studied GCSE RE. Another pupil told that request, which, as I mentioned at the outset, has me how each essay is commented on according to the huge public support, RE will remain a compulsory qualities of K, U and E——knowledge, understanding subject for all school students, even if they do not study and evaluation—which appeared in the margin of all GCSE RE, so I ask the Minister to consider my next his essays and had to be demonstrated. points as well. Research among 1,000 16 to 23-year-olds has found It is critical that RE should not be unintentionally that 83% felt that RE could promote understanding of downgraded, that the teaching of RE as a compulsory different religions and beliefs, while more than half subject, quite separately from the teaching of GCSE agreed that it had had a positive influence on them. So RE, should be accorded the priority it merits, and that what would be the negative results, however unintended, appropriate signals should be sent out to such effect of excluding RE from the E-bac as proposed? from the highest level. Will the Minister kindly consider Currently, most state secondary schools arrange their how the Government can ensure that the appropriate timetables with a humanities bloc of geography, history resources are applied to the teaching of RE in schools and RE. An experienced teacher told me that and that an appropriately robust approach is taken 31WH Religious Education17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 32WH

[Fiona Bruce] I wrote to the Secretary of State for Education on behalf of my constituents, urging him to rethink the regarding the nature of such teaching and of the Ofsted Government’s decision. However, I received a very inspections for the provision and quality of RE? That disappointing response from the schools Minister, which would reaffirm the important role of RE in schools and simply reiterated the position that RE is not to be its vital contribution to the whole school curriculum. It included because it is already a compulsory subject, would recognise RE’s importance to pupils as a preparation “throughout a pupil’s schooling”. That argument has for the character that they will require in adulthood, as been demolished by Mrs Robson, the head teacher at well as throughout the whole of a child’s school life. Archbishop Runcie school, who pointed out the difference between statutory or core provision of religious education, 11.16 am and the option for students to take religious studies as a Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) full course to GCSE level. (Lab): I am pleased to serve under your chairmanship The Minister’s response simply does not address the today, Mr Brady. concern that his decision will lead to a downgrading of I have been contacted by a wide number of constituents, the importance of RE, because achievement in designated local schools and educationalists who are concerned E-bac subjects will, understandably, become the overriding about the Government decision not to include RE as a concern of schools, pupils and parents. Like me, many humanities subject in the new English baccalaureate, or of my constituents and people throughout the north-east E-bac. I cannot express those concerns better than by are dissatisfied with the Minister’s responses, and his quoting a few of the individuals directly, beginning with apparent refusal to reconsider his decision. They include a recent communication from Mrs Robson, head teacher Mrs Pat Wager, head teacher at Sacred Heart Catholic of Archbishop Runcie Church of England first school high school in Fenham, which is my old school. She in Gosforth, in my constituency: said: “students qualifying with GCSE full course in RS are young “RS cannot be excluded from a domain entitled ‘Humanity’—RS people who demonstrate knowledge and understanding of a is the pre-eminent humanity and yet it has no place.” variety of contemporary world views and who have demonstrated skills of discernment and evaluation of religious and philosophical That is dispiriting for Catholic schools, which contribute issues and arguments, qualities much needed in today’s world.” so much to performance nationally. Whenever a Minister She continued that the consequence of not including addresses us, we are told how wonderful we are and our RE as a humanities option exceptional achievements are celebrated, yet we are “would be disastrous for many schools and students and for the being treated disdainfully over this matter, which is so future expertise required to teach the subject…The unintended important to us. consequence of not including GCSE Religious Studies as an For all the reasons outlined so articulately and option in the E-Bacc is that many schools will cease to offer RE at persuasively by Mrs Wager, Mrs Robson, Ms Miller GCSE altogether; this in turn will have a very negative impact on and the many other constituents who have contacted the number of students taking RE at A-Level, and therefore on me about this important issue, I urge the Minister to the applications for theology and religious studies at degree level. This means that there will be a corresponding decline in candidates stop or to pause, and to reconsider his decision not to for teacher training and so on teacher supply for RE, a subject include RE as a humanity in the English baccalaureate. which is already lacking in specialist teachers.” We would all welcome that U-turn. Alison Miller, head teacher at St Mark’s Roman Catholic primary school in Westerhope, expressed her 11.21 am concerns about the Government’s decision, stating that it would be a “retrograde step” to exclude RE from the Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): I agree with everything E-bac, in particular in light of that has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for “the excellent progress that has been made in the teaching of RE Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and the hon. Member for at GCSE level over recent years”. Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh). As at I share my constituents’ concerns. We seriously lag least 12 hon. Friends wish to contribute to the debate, I behind the rest of Europe in our approach to education shall be brief. and our ability, through our schooling, to analyse issues I am sure the Minister needs no persuasion of the and problems from a deeper philosophical perspective. I need for religious education in the syllabus, so I suspect am concerned that the decision to exclude RE from the that the issues are essentially practical. I am also sure E-bac will reinforce that trend, when a better understanding that the damaging and ongoing domino effect on religious and respect for different faiths, regardless of one’s own education of being left out of the 2010 E-bac list has faith or practice, would be beneficial. been explained to him on many occasions, as has been clearly confirmed by the survey by the National Association Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): At this particular of Teachers of Religious Education. time in our history, when there is so much conflict still in the world, many teachers and parents believe a spiritual My understanding is that the Minister’s concern is a literacy and understanding of religion is hugely important practical issue and not about RE, because he wants to and must continue in Britain. Does my hon. Friend reverse the decline in history and geography, but that recognise fears that that will be diminished at the local should not be done by undermining RE. Perhaps he will level? consider having at least a two-out-of-three option, which would add only 5% of time to the syllabus and could be Catherine McKinnell: I agree with my right hon. easily managed. I hope that when he replies to the Friend, and thank him for reinforcing that important debate, he will not dig in but will start by saying that he point. Religious education should not in effect be has heard the mood of the Chamber, and that he will downgraded in this way, as a good understanding of all ask his officials to explore a two-out-of-three option, religions is essential to a well rounded education. and return to him. 33WH Religious Education17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 34WH

That is all the more important because under the we want people to look outwards, to see their place in review of the national curriculum, RE is not part of it. the world and to show responsibility towards others, There is a distinction between the basic curriculum and religious education is the very basis of that action and the national curriculum. RE is the odd subject out, those values. When people ask me why I joined the which does not help. As we move towards a greater Labour party and why I became an MP, it is often number of academies—I think the Government’s perception difficult to answer because there are so many reasons of them is that they should be “independent”schools—we for all of us. My faith is part of the basis of that, not will not see RE written back into primary legislation for because I am as understanding of my faith intellectually academies. If we are not careful, all that will undermine as some hon. Members on the Government Benches, the position of RE. but because I am a cradle Catholic and understand my RE teacher training has been hit by nearly 50% values through my education. because of schools responding to the change in its I suggest that the problem for religious education will position. I appreciate that the Minister is sympathetic not be in the Catholic schools, because they will continue regarding the question of RE in the E-bac, but I hope to have a core understanding that the teaching of religious he will be able to square the circle because that is his education is imperative to pupils’ development. It is ministerial task. Only religious education provides students other schools that may have a significant problem, and I with the opportunity to question and study spiritual ask the Minister to think about that, because of the and moral beliefs in a spiritual context. topic’s academic value, its value to individual development, I conclude by sharing with the House what I think is and its benefit to wider society in understanding not the clear and undisputed view of the Church of England, only our own history but others’. and which is clearly supported by other Churches. That was made clear to me when I went to the consecration 11.28 am of St Joseph the Worker Roman Catholic church in my John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I congratulate the hon. constituency on Sunday. The Church of England Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on her debate. “is deeply concerned at the exclusion of Religious Education Obviously, hon. Members are speaking with considerable from the list of Humanities qualifications that are acceptable for the English Baccalaureate. It is already clear that schools are passion. I acknowledge that, of a number of things I removing RE from the GCSE options for students as a direct have done in life for which I am barely qualified and result of this.” have no genuine talent, one has been teaching RE. I I very much hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will taught it for quite a long time to bright adolescent boys, listen to the Chamber today, and heed its collective so I know a little about the matter. voice. Religious education is not an attempt to make people religious, and that must be clearly stated. It is not an 11.25 am attempt to instruct people on what they should believe. Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): I Religious education and religion are misunderstood apologise to the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona and widely misrepresented. Bruce) for not giving her notice of my desire to contribute It seems to me that a person adopts a religion because to this debate. I am here as a lay person, a practising that provides a framework within which they try to Catholic, and a great friend of Jane Savill, who runs the understand their existence; they abandon that religion if master’s degree course in religious education at the and when it fails to provide that meaningful framework. Institute of Education in London. A religion or faith is tested as one’s existence is played It strikes me that a poor excuse for excluding religion out day by day—religion is caught, not taught. Some from the humanities topics in the baccalaureate is that people get by without using any traditional religious we want to promote geography and history, because concepts to clarify their life and existence, and such that is doing to RE what we did to geography and people are called secularists. Most hon. Members present history. As most people know, when Ofsted comes into in the Chamber appear to be religious, but in general, a school, it has a whole-school programme approach, people who are not religious are frankly indifferent to and will not notice the decline in RE as a topic until it is those who are. There are, however, an increasing number too late and it is in the same state as history and of angry and aggressive secularists who are filled with geography. Knowing that, and understanding the history, what can be described only as missionary zeal to ensure why would we want to replicate our current problems? that people are as unreligious as possible. Some people For me, religious education, far from being wishy-washy, make no attempt to apply a framework to their existence provides an understanding of our place in society and and live an unreflective life. of others’ views in society. In my suburban south London Within our existence we do a range of things—we constituency, many people are new to our area and have study science and history, make moral decisions, listen different faiths, values and attitudes, and the study of to music. We join political parties, fall in and out of religious education is important for our understanding love, make speeches in Westminster Hall, get ourselves not only of other people’s views, but of our own place elected and so on. Those things are part of our existence, in the world. Sometimes, the religious education that but they do not entail a particular view of what existence young people receive outside the classroom may be a is about. We struggle; we sometimes wonder what we cause for concern, and for radicalism, but that may be are all doing here. Happily or unhappily, most cultures challenged in schools in an environment where people have a particular view of how we should understand feel safe to challenge the views of others. our existence. We call those views religions, and in a I implore the Minister to look at the matter again. sense they come from the groundwork carried out by What big society topic can be greater than religious our forebears. The merits, strength and weaknesses of education? It is a subject that makes us understand the religions are discovered by those who adopt and try to basis of our constitution, society, history and values. If live out such explanations for their existence. 35WH Religious Education17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 36WH

[John Pugh] RE was made compulsory in schools due to a Victorian belief that an irreligious proletariat would be difficult to We cannot teach a religion in a classroom, but we can handle. teach about it and that is what religious education Whether or not RE is legally compulsory should not involves. RE may include a number of elements such as affect its inclusion as a humanities subject in the the history of religion to explain what people of a baccalaureate. The most interesting thing about particular religion have done, how that religion began, humanity—we are discussing humanities—is not that how it spread and so on. The sociology behind religion we live, breathe, procreate and die, but that we seek to may be taught to identify a religion’s social effects and grasp what our existence is about and live accordingly. the factors that influenced its growth. There may be We are all religious in some sense or other. To make RE elements of psychology in identifying traits that may—or a statutory obligation risks diminishing its status, narrowing may not—incline one towards a particular religion, and its scope and lessening its quality. It is a poor argument the effects of religious belief on a person. RE is not to suggest that just because a subject is compulsory in philosophy; its principal job is to clarify how religions, one context, it cannot be optional in another. which exist all around us, endeavour to explain our existence, and how adherents of a religion live their lives and are likely to act. 11.36 am Religious education has historically been taught in a Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I apologise for arriving narrow way that simply explained the Christian framework. late, Mr Brady, and I shall not delay hon. Members for More recently we have had more of a Cook’s tour long. I congratulate the hon. Member for Congleton approach—I am sure that would disgust the hon. Member (Fiona Bruce) on securing this debate. I hope that the for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh)—and a whole range of hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) will not mind religions are covered with a fairly light-touch approach. my saying this, but he gave the driest version of what It is a hard subject to teach in a totally fair and religious education might involve that I have ever heard. scrupulous way. His speech included a lot of sentences that could have Only once we understand how people view their lives ended with the word “discuss” in an essay title. will we know how to engage with them properly, which, I have four brief points. Unlike my hon. Friend the I suggest, is what life is about. Therefore, understanding Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), people’s religions is at least as important as understanding I am not a layperson. I was ordained in 1986 in the their history or geography. Arguably, it is more important Church of England, and that remains with me although than knowing about one’s own past or locale, although I resigned my orders prior to entering the House. I there is considerable benefit in understanding one’s believe strongly that the most important place where culture, background and habitation. History, geography people catch faith—to use the words of the hon. Member and religious education are all equally important subjects, for Southport—is in the home; the best faith education and there is no convincing case for excluding one and happens in the home, in a family setting. including the others in the English baccalaureate. The reason given by the Secretary of State is that RE is a Last night, however, I sat next to a woman who told compulsory subject under law, but the grounds for that me that although she was a strong member of her local curious legal status are obscure and not explained. It is United Reform church, and in her words a very liberal not clear—it seems a straight non-sequitur—why making Christian, one of her sons is now an ardent evangelical a subject compulsory in the syllabus means that it does who believes that she will be going into the fiery pit, and not need to be optional and given more intensive study her other son is a militant atheist. None the less, she felt in the baccalaureate. The blessings of compulsory status that she had done a good job of religious education in are mixed. In the average British school, subjects with the home. compulsory status are often ignored or not explained, The question of RE in schools is vital. The subject is and even good schools feel licensed to provide minimal not an add-on; it is essential to understanding so many or poor-quality teaching, simply to comply with the other subjects. Few works of English literature—apart, law. The compulsory status of RE in this country has perhaps, from that written in the past 20 years—can be done little to stimulate genuine religious belief or interest. properly understood without an understanding of In the United States, where teaching religion in schools Christianity. It is difficult to understand many modern is absolutely forbidden, church attendance is higher and British novels without knowing something about Islam. there are greater levels of belief. Most British music—indeed, most European music from the past 800 years—is dominated by religious themes. How can one understand the history of Parliament Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Given the decline without some reference to the religious debates that in attendance at church services across the United Kingdom started with rows about the Lollards and went through and particularly in England, is there not a greater need to the disestablishment of the Church in Wales in the for religious education and study in schools, so that the early 20th century? benefits of that will be felt by those families who do not have the chance to attend church on Sunday? If we wish to respond to some of the challenges of militant religion, we should perhaps be better at discussing religion in the main Chamber. Some elements of geography John Pugh: Given that people do not necessarily have cannot be understood without a knowledge of religion. an adequate understanding of what religions represent The relationship of Istanbul—once Constantinople—with and involve, there is a case for teaching more about Europe cannot be understood as a geographical entity them in schools. I will go that far, but one cannot argue without consideration of the religious aspect. Few modern that it is the job of schools to make the nation religious. languages do not require an understanding of religion. 37WH Religious Education17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 38WH

Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): The hon. of us have a religious persuasion, the issue is not about Gentleman is making an excellent speech. Does he “God squad” people wishing to keep God in schools. I agree that without an understanding of religion, we are had a very interesting discussion with Juliette Lyle, left only with labels, which is a huge problem for society? deputy director of the National Association of Teachers of Religious Education. She came to speak to me, as a Chris Bryant: I was coming to that point. However, teacher in St Albans schools. We agreed that this taxing before I do, I want to say as an article of faith—and I and pressing subject ought to be considered by people am not a fundamentalist, either in religion or politics—that of faith and no faith. I think spirituality is a river that one cannot dam. There “Religious education” is a misnomer, and that worries are hundreds of different forms of spirituality, but any me. It is like calling maths, “sums”; it diminishes the education worth its salt in this country needs to give subject. Some of the great studies throughout recorded young people an opportunity to understand and develop history have been theological. Some of our greatest and that spirituality, so that it is fully grown and mature, not most beautiful pieces of writing have come through the naive. theological route. To diminish it by calling it “RE, and The hon. Member for Congleton referred to “a tolerant everybody does it” takes away the rigour of its study. society”. I hate that term. I do not want to live in a tolerant society, because it smells of people saying, “I People have also queried its use and the good of am prepared to put up with you.” I would much prefer studying it. As the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris to live in a respectful society. If anything, the danger of Bryant) said, it could be vocational. I could also question the liberal—small “l”—Britain of the past 100 years is the good of some complex mathematical theorems that that we have been tolerant of other religions, but never one might have studied at 14 or 15. I used to be a learned enough about them to be truly respectful. teacher and, as a Member of Parliament, I have found In addition, we have never learned enough about my religious education O-level to be of far more use Islam, or any other religion, to be able to challenge bad than the maths that I was pretty rubbish at. If nothing religion. Heaven knows, there is plenty of bad religion else, it has helped me to understand some of the faiths in society today. It is not just the British attitude that and backgrounds of people I serve in my community. one cannot possibly talk about politics or religion at a My constituency is a proud cathedral city, but also has a dinner party; it is that all too often we are fundamentally 10% ethnic minority community, the largest of which is ignorant about the basis of most religions. I would Bangladeshi. For all of us, even if we take it no further include in that the fact that many young people are as a rigorous study, RE helps us in our lives to understand extremely ignorant about Christianity. other people. That point has been well made today. My experience of Catholic teaching in many Catholic I hotly disagree with the opinion that the subject is schools is that sometimes it is good and sometimes it is wishy-washy. If it is wishy-washy in some schools, some appalling. There is one thing that I particularly dislike: rigour ought to be put back into it. By leaving it out of I have heard Catholic teachers refer to “Christians and the baccalaureate as an option, we are continuing to Catholics”, as if non-Catholics were not Christians. I give it a “sums” title of study. We should be saying that always believed the word Catholic to extend beyond. the subject is one of the pinnacles of university study, I hope all that has moved on, but I think that in some but it is increasingly not a university course of choice. cases it has not. With that comes the shuttered approach that we get in I want to refer to one final matter. I happen, bizarrely, many of our town centres. Once a town centre is diminished, to be an external adviser on the Oxford theology degree. once there are no longer shops that people go to, people One of my concerns is that the number of people stop going there. If we do not give the subject the place applying to do theology at university is dwindling. In that it truly deserves within the curriculum, as a rigorous part, that may be due to social issues, but it may also be option among the humanities courses, people will stop due to the respect with which religious education is choosing it. Youngpeople will stop seeing it as something treated in the curriculum in England, Wales and Scotland. worth doing, parents will not encourage them to do it I wish it would be accorded further respect, not least and it will die a slow death. because the big danger is that otherwise the courses will Mindful that many others are speaking today, I would end up just being vocational. In other words, somebody like to say that I supported the early-day motion and I training to be a priest goes to read theology at university also wrote to the Minister. I urge the Minister to listen and is merely trained in that narrow, prescriptive way, to our voices. It is not just because people want to see us and does not learn about other religions or extend the doing religion in schools. Religion, as many have said, is course. That is a vicious circle because fewer people something that one catches or may never catch, and who have an interest in religion itself, rather than a having it is not easy. This is about a rigorous approach, desire to go for ordination, will take it forward. about testing values. Should we bar people from wearing I wholly agree with what the hon. Member for Congleton religious symbols? Should we legislate for that as they said, and I congratulate her. I hope that the Minister do in France? Do we condemn the sectarian attacks on will be able to reassure us about the value that he places goalkeepers because some teams are seen as having a on religious education in schools. particular religious persuasion? Do we look at some great pieces of literature and say that the roots are 11.42 am echoed in modern literature? As other hon. Members have said, people might not even understand the literature Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): I congratulate my without understanding the references. There are many hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) aspects of the subject that could be studied intensely, on securing the debate. I am mindful that many Members which would contribute enormously to a young person’s wish to speak. I would like to say that, although many education and life skills. 39WH Religious Education17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 40WH

[Mrs Anne Main] Another strength, which has not been mentioned, is standing advisory councils for religious education at the The claim that there is a logistical problem should local level. Local agreed syllabus conferences provide not prevent RE from being an option in the baccalaureate. good-quality religious education, and one fine example I urge the Minister to consider a way round that, so that is Birmingham, where people are being brought together schools that wish to approach the subject in the rigorous to determine what is best for their community. way that I would like have the option of doing so. To However, there are weaknesses, which we need to say that the subject is done all through the school year recognise. Despite a legacy of improvements, we face a diminishes it and is used as a reason not to include it. I difficult time, even leaving aside the concerns about the would rather it were not made a legal requirement in E-bac. Last year’s Ofsted report “Transforming religious schools, if that means it is then excluded. Most schools, education”—it did not receive a response from the particularly faith schools, would teach it anyway. previous Government, and I question whether there If one can opt out of religious studies, we have more will be a formal response from this Government— of an argument for removing that legal protection, recognised that there was a lack of systemic monitoring rather than using it as an excuse to exclude it from the by Ofsted of statutory compliance. It also recognised baccalaureate. There is strong support in the country to the inadequacy of professional development and the see this subject as an option. I urge the Minister to fact that the quality of religious education is still patchy. listen to that support. That was particularly true—this is the key point—where teachers were non-specialists and there were short GCSE courses. The concern is whether that weakness will 11.48 am predominate around the country with the result that the Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I strengths that have been built up over the years are lost. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton However, there are opportunities, as I have mentioned. (Fiona Bruce) on securing such an important debate. The Government are quite properly committed to local As has already been noted, it is not actually a religious determination as regards religious education. I could debate. It is also not just about a religious lobby wanting also mention this debate, the 115,000 people who have to fight its own corner; I always think that God is big signed petitions and the people who have lobbied us. It enough to fight his own corner, on this issue as well as is important to harness that debate and interest to others. Nor is the debate about imparting faith. As the ensure that communities fight the corner of religious hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said, the education locally so that it is in our schools. We must best place for that is often the home. also ensure that funding streams continue for the religious This is a debate about humanities. The Government education advisers who are under threat. There is also are keen, quite properly, to ensure that we return the greater freedom in the curriculum, and that, too, provides rigour and the study in humanities, especially given the opportunities. declining numbers studying geography. This is an issue The threats involved in RE’s not being part of the of humanities, geography, history and culture. Religion, E-bac have been mentioned, and I will not repeat them. particularly Christianity, has shaped our buildings—not just the building we walk in, but those all around. Mr Lammy: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman Religion has shaped literature in our libraries, paintings mentioned the British Humanist Association, but does in our galleries and relationships with our neighbours. he recognise that although we would not generally agree The debate has looked beyond the classroom, and that with some of the things that it says, it is also concerned is right. about the loss of religious education in our schools? However, we need to recognise what has been going The association believes that it is important for people on in our classrooms. There is a freeze on consultants, who are not of faith—atheists or agnostics—to understand so I would like to help the Minister with a SWOT religious views and to hear them put across in schools. analysis—strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats. First, there are the strengths that one sees around in Mr Burrowes: I do indeed recognise that. Many relation to religious education. Yes, there has been an associations take part in the local agreed syllabus increase in provision and quality since the mid-1990s. conferences. RE is also much more popular. Gone is the caricature The rebuttal to the concerns about RE’s not being of RE lessons as simply being the soft option, where part of the E-bac is that schools still have the time in pupils can have an easy ride, go to sleep or cause trouble their curriculums to allow pupils to take RE as a GCSE for the teacher. There is now properly recognised specialist option. I see that as an option for pupils at successful training for RE, and that is reflected in the fact that four schools, which have the necessary capacity and time, times as many students take it up at A-level than was but it may not be an option for less successful schools the case 15 years ago. and for pupils who are more challenging, who will The statutory curriculum is a strength, and we need inevitably go for just the core requirements in the to look at it in more detail. In that respect, there is curriculum. The unintended consequence of such an leadership from the Minister and the Secretary of State— approach could be that RE is not taken up as an option. including in communications that I have received, which The concern then is that we would go back to having a have been more positive than hon. Members have suggested. lack of specialist RE teachers. In them, there has been a commitment to the importance There is a concern that the freedoms set out in the of religious education and to continuing to safeguard funding agreements for academies and free schools may its position in the curriculum. They have also made it entail a lower take-up of RE in some areas. There is also clear that there are no plans to change the current legal a concern that the current statutory requirement is not requirement for a daily act of collective worship. being followed through to implementation. As has been 41WH Religious Education17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 42WH said, where is the true rigour in inspections? The limited that will inevitably come from the Department’s proposed focus on maintaining the statutory requirement in future changes will lead to a fall in standards, less focus on RE inspections may have a negative effect on the curriculum. as part of a compulsory key stage 4 curriculum and, I recognise that the national curriculum review does not importantly, a lack of trained resource for the future, include religious education, but one should not ignore which our children and schools will ultimately regret the crossover and the links between the basic curriculum deeply—I certainly would, and all my colleagues in the and the national curriculum in terms of the whole life Chamber would, too. of a school and exam options. Secondly, when the Minister speaks at the end—I am In conclusion, I ask the Minister to walk carefully not trying to read his mind, but I have been in constant and cautiously in considering the possible impact of discussion with his Department, so I am pretty sure that not having RE as part of the E-bac. I ask him to this is accurate—he will state that RE does not need to recognise the strength of the crucial argument that if be included as an option in the E-bac because it is a RE is important enough to be required by law, it is compulsory part of the key stage 4 curriculum, but that important enough for us to include it as an exam is not the case for academies. Will he therefore clarify subject in the English baccalaureate. That would be just the situation on academies and tell us what he will do one simple and practical way of acknowledging the about the fact that take-up in academies is—I have importance of religious literacy and a proper understanding heard this anecdotally—beginning to decline? That is of our humanity. even more relevant when we consider that academies are far more prevalent in areas where there is more deprivation and where children grow up in a range of 11.55 am different religions. In a way, that makes it even more Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I appreciate your important that academies have the trained, experienced giving me the opportunity to speak, Mr Brady. I RE teachers to teach children in a balanced way. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton Thirdly, I suspect that the Minister will state that the (Fiona Bruce) on arranging this important debate. number of students studying RE has risen from 16% in I welcome the Department’s dialogue with universities 1995 to 28% in 2010 and that the take-up of history and to ascertain which GCSEs will give young people the geography has declined over that period. I agree with best chance to get into the best universities. I have him and accept that that is an issue. I welcome the supported the E-bac for many years, so I am greatly E-Bac, but does the Minister accept not only that the encouraged that the coalition Government are moving increased take-up of RE is a good thing, but that forward with it. However, I have obvious concerns excluding it from the E-bac will perhaps lead to an even about the fact that the humanities exclude RE, so let me more dramatic decline in take-up than geography has say a little about the importance of RE, which all my experienced over the past 16 years—from 45% to 26%? colleagues have dealt with very well. What will he do to address that? I would like him to In simple terms, there are so many different messages commit to revisiting and reviewing the role of RE, for our young people in the modern world that the very should take-up decline. idea of their not receiving education from experienced RE teachers fills me with horror. There are so many [DR WILLIAM MCCRAE in the Chair] dysfunctional messages out there that if young people Essentially, I and many of my colleagues—on both do not have the opportunity to hear about religion in sides of the House, and of all beliefs and none—along the round from experienced teachers, they will, as sure with hundreds of thousands of members of the public, as night follows day, be more prone to taking up some profoundly believe that the changes could lead to a of the more dangerous, outrageous and cruel messages diminution for our children of RE teaching by trained about aspects of religion, which would do them a and experienced teachers. I urge the Minister to reconsider disservice. I therefore urge the Minister to think carefully the Department’s direction of travel, to listen to us and about this. to the public, and to not do a U-turn but change his On some more specific points, I was privileged to mind as the facts change. sponsor early-day motion 1375, and I am absolutely delighted that more than 100 Members from all parties 12.1 pm in the House have supported it and signed it, just as many tens of thousands of members of the public have Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I join colleagues signed petitions. Indeed, if I could wave a magic wand in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for and explain the importance of RE in schools to all Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on securing the debate. I 60 million-plus people in this country, No. 10 Downing suspect that this is one of those subjects on which, as street would have a petition with about 30 million Kipling said, signatures. “never the twain shall meet”. The Minister and the Department recognise that this Those who regard religious teaching in our schools, or is an issue of serious and profound concern for many any religious instruction, as brainwashing will not be people. Given that the Minister is with us today, however, convinced otherwise, and, yes, those who passionately I want to ask for a number of commitments. First, there favour the continuation of RE lessons as an essential is no getting away from the fact that not making RE an part of our young people’s education tend to feel equally option in the humanities section of the E-bac will lead passionate. to reductions in RE-trained and experienced staff; in I am a Christian and, although I favour the continuation fact, I am already receiving anecdotal evidence that that of RE teaching in our schools, I hope I have been able is happening. What is the Minister doing to ensure that to step back and look objectively at the arguments on that possible trend is halted? I fear that the redundancies both sides. I agree with my hon. Friend when she 43WH Religious Education17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 44WH

[Martin Vickers] My hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) spoke earlier about a general indifference to RE stresses how important it is that RE not be downgraded, among people. To some extent that is correct. People to use her phrase. The argument is not about the are not constantly thinking about it as they go about continuation of “brainwashing”, but about providing their daily business, but we should not assume that the an essential background to our culture and identity as a great majority of British people are quite that indifferent nation. Our history centres around monarchy, Parliament to it. Only a few weeks ago, someone approached and Church, and although all those institutions have me—ironically enough, as I left a Grimsby Town football passed through turbulent times, they have, in the end, match. He had obviously been idling away his time brought stability and the freedom to enjoy the benefits looking at the Parliament website and had spotted that of religion—or, indeed, the freedom not to practise any I supported an early-day motion on RE in schools. He faith. congratulated me and said, “I am sure the people are Like many children of the 1950s, I attended Sunday behind you”, which was encouraging and important. school until I was of an age when my father, who RE in our schools is vital if we are to make people regularly attended that most beautiful of Anglican services, aware of faith and to contribute to the rounded development evensong, decided that I, too, was old enough to go of our young people, so that they can appreciate our with him and appreciate it. Of course, at that time there rich cultural history. I hope the Minister will give a was a daily assembly in school. I realise that there are robust defence of RE in our schools and, as my hon. many difficulties in delivering such an assembly nowadays, Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) but many of our schools quite simply do not try hard said, ensure that the resources for it will be available. I enough—where there is a will, there is indeed a way. hope the Minister will reassure me that the Government Children who miss out on adequate RE lessons as will play their full part; that is particularly important, part of their schooling miss out not only on the opportunity given what has been said on academies. North East to learn the benefits that faith can bring to an individual Lincolnshire local education authority has been a trailblazer and how faith can inspire, but on the opportunity of the for academies, so it is particularly important that the shared experience that our churches bring when our role of RE in those schools be maintained. I apologise communities celebrate the rites of passage or an occasion to the Minister: I will have to slip out a few minutes of thanksgiving. Until two or three years ago, I served before the end of his summing-up speech, but tomorrow for five years as a churchwarden, and it was a privilege I will eagerly read what he has said in Hansard. to be on duty at, for example, a baptism; but I was always saddened by the fact that many people were not Several hon. Members rose— fully able to share the whole experience because they could not recite the Lord’s prayer or understand many Dr William McCrea (in the Chair): Order. There are of the symbols and traditions that are instinctive to my still a number of people who want to speak, and I am generation. sorry but we will not be able to fit everyone in. I intend It is good that some of our other organisations cater to call the Front-Bench spokesmen at about 10 past 12. for young people to some extent and fill the gap, on some occasions, that schools have left. On Sunday, I attended Grimsby minster for the somewhat delayed 12.7 pm annual St George’s day service of the Grimsby and Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): It has been Cleethorpes scout association. There were a few hundred an interesting debate and I hope that I will not, as so young people parading and saluting their flag, promising often happens, be the grit in the oyster. I value religion to serve God, Queen and country and to help their as much as anybody in the House—I have written a fellow men and women, and all in the setting of an act book on the decline of religion and how it affects of collective worship and thanksgiving. society—but I believe that we owe the Minister a careful Our country is the poorer in that nowadays, we hearing, because the whole point of the E-bac is to provide our young people with little opportunity to take bring rigor back into academic education. I support RE part in collective worship and to learn the basic teachings more than anybody, but too many schools have climbed of our major religions; love, respect and tolerance are at up the league tables by, frankly, cheating by providing their heart and we should treasure those teachings. I Mickey Mouse courses. I congratulate my hon. Friend readily admit that it is possible to value those precepts the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on performing and to pass them on to future generations without a a great service with this debate. I have a son at the faith, but those generations will miss the opportunity to London Oratory, which is a Catholic school, and I learn about religions and to weigh up for themselves value that fact. It will do very well out of the E-bac, whether to accept their teachings. because a rigorous academic school, which will continue The then head teacher at my daughter’s junior school, to promote faith studies, will benefit in the league tables David Thomas, when questioned at a parents’ evening by concentrating on rigorous academic subjects such as on the role of RE, said that its role in his school was to maths and English. bring the pupils to the “threshold of belief”. That I intervened on my hon. Friend earlier because those phrase has stuck with me; it is valuable and the ideal at of us who support RE must argue based on what it is. which schools should aim. It saddens me that at times, Has it been so degraded in how it is taught that it is no there seems to be an acceptance—certainly among some longer an academic subject? Of course we should support mainstream Christian Churches—that it is all a little other religions and value people of other religions—that too difficult and we must be even-handed, but if the will goes without saying—but my hon. Friend the Member exists, we can ensure that the valuable tradition of RE for St Albans (Mrs Main) says that we need to understand in our schools continues. and to debate whether it is right for people to wear the 45WH Religious Education17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 46WH burqa or the cross. That is fine as a subject of public Labour Government, saying that four times as many debate, but should it be part of a rigorous academic are now studying RE at A-level. The hon. Member for subject? Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) urged the Minister to repent on the matter of E-bac. The hon. Member for Cleethorpes Mr Lammy: I generally agree with the hon. Gentleman (Martin Vickers) is obviously a man of great faith; he on these matters, but is he suggesting that Shakespeare must be to support Grimsby Town football club. is of more value than the Koran or the Bible? Finally, the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) accused schools of cheating. It was slightly over the top, Mr Leigh: No, I am not. I am saying that a close even for him, to say of schools that enter pupils for study of the Talmud is as valuable and rigorous, and in exams that are available and properly set out by the my view as academic, as a close study of the Koran or examination boards that they are cheating. I would be the Christian Bible. interested to know which schools in his constituency he If we are to restore religious education as an academic thinks are cheats, and which teachers and head teachers. subject, we may have to restore it as an academic study. I am sure that he will list them all later. Otherwise, it will continue to be an easy cop-out. One It is right for me to say something about what the cannot defend an academic subject on the ground of previous Government did to improve RE teaching in good citizenship—we should all be good citizens, we our schools. We invested £1 million in an RE action should all value other people and we should all be kind plan during our last three years. We wanted to improve and nice to others, but that is not an academic subject. the quality of teaching and learning of religious education, I hope the Minister will assure us that the exclusion with revised guidance and a review of resources, support of religious education is not a prejudice against religion. and materials for teachers. We wanted to strengthen the I am sure he will want to assure us about academies, role of RE in the curriculum, and we worked closely which is an important point. However, I hope he will with the key stakeholders to deliver that plan. The also give a hint to those of us who organise religious previous Government, like this Government, were education—there is no point in denying that it was a supportive of religious education being taught in our bad Ofsted report—that it has to return to its history as schools, and we were supportive of it being broadly a rigorous academic subject. Christian in character. However, it is extremely important that pupils should be taught about different religions, 12.11 pm not least in the multi-faith world which we live in and which is reflected in so many of our constituencies. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I congratulate The previous Labour Government were right to do the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on that, and I do not think that there has been any particular securing this debate, which has been most interesting. deliberate change in emphasis by the present Government. The hon. Lady acknowledged the considerable progress However, a number of Members spoke about the impact on religious education that was made under the previous of the English baccalaureate on the teaching of RE. Government; as she has said, the numbers have quadrupled. That policy comes under the famous “nudge” theory. I She made an extremely thoughtful speech on the teaching have said it before, and I shall say it again, but if we of religious education, with particular emphasis on the nudge people with a loaded gun the consequences are E-bac. obvious. The consequence of the loaded gun of the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle English baccalaureate for the teaching of RE in schools upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) on her speech. is becoming clear. I also congratulate her on getting a timely reply to her I wonder what the Secretary of State thought would letter from the Secretary of State for Education, which happen to the teaching of RE when he announced the is a rare thing. The hon. Member for Banbury (Tony English baccalaureate. It was done in a rush, without Baldry) called for a two out of three option on the consultation and without deep thought being given to E-bac. It will be interesting to hear the Minister’s response. it. Was he emphasising the importance of teaching the My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden core academic subjects? Was he setting his own exam (Siobhain McDonagh) made a passionate speech about test that he could not fail? He knows that in a few years’ her Catholic religious background. As ever, the hon. time the impact of nudging people in that way—of Member for Southport (John Pugh) was donnish and saying that schools will be judged on how they do in the scholarly in his observations. He seemed to be putting E-bac—would be a rush, a diversion, of schools’ resources forward a case for the compulsory teaching of philosophy into the teaching of those subjects. The inevitable rather than of religion. consequence, which he desires, is that he would be able My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris to say at the end of his parliamentary term, “I have Bryant) reminded us that the Church is disestablished in succeeded, because more people are studying the subjects Wales, but he admirably resisted the temptation to use that I have decided are important.” the word “antidisestablishmentarianism”, which showed What will be the consequences for RE? As the hon. a great deal of restraint, which I do not possess. My Member for St Albans has said, The Times Educational hon. Friend preached respect rather than tolerance, Supplement of 4 February 2011 published a survey by which is an interesting distinction. the National Association of Teachers of Religious The hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main), a Education, which had gathered 800 responses from former teacher, spoke with passion. Incidentally, my state and independent schools. It was reported that the school—St Alban’s RC comprehensive school at Pontypool survey had —is obviously named after the same martyr as her city. “found planned cuts to both short and full-course GCSEs in The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) religious studies from this September. In some cases schools are acknowledged the progress made under the previous reported to be ignoring their statutory duty to offer RE at all.” 47WH Religious Education17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 48WH

[Kevin Brennan] has been a compulsory part of the school curriculum since 1944. The Education Reform Act 1988 made That was the result of the rushed and ill-considered religious education a fundamental part of the basic introduction of the English baccalaureate by the Secretary curriculum, as opposed to the national curriculum, in of State. all maintained schools. Its unique status signifies the special position that religious education holds in reflecting Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con) rose— the traditions and beliefs that underpin contemporary society. Kevin Brennan: Because the hon. Gentleman did not RE is central to the aim of the school curriculum, speak earlier, I shall give way. which is to promote the spiritual, moral and cultural development of children and young people and to help Andrew Percy: The hon. Gentleman is entirely correct. prepare them for the responsibilities and experiences of For the last two decades we have seen that schools will adult life. always teach to whatever they are measured on. The My hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John real risk of the English baccalaureate being drawn so Pugh) appeared to be proposing the ending of compulsory narrowly is as the hon. Gentleman says. It is happening RE in the curriculum, which is an argument that we will in my constituency; head teachers tell me that they are resist. As a Government, we are committed to retaining doing exactly that—rushing resources to the subjects RE as a compulsory subject to the age of 16 that contribute to the E-bac to the detriment of all notwithstanding the increasing volume of the secular other subjects. lobby.Unlike the previous Government, this Administration are committed to faith schools. We value the enormous Kevin Brennan: The hon. Gentleman, like me, is an contribution that they make to our education system, ex-teacher and speaks from experience. He knows the which my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate impact of directives, missives or advice from the Department (Mr Burrowes) has acknowledged. for Education. I agree with the hon. Member for Mitcham and The Times Educational Supplement of 13 May—last Morden (Siobhain McDonagh), who said that RE helps Friday—stated in its magazine: to promote community cohesion. RE, as part of a “Even though RE is a statutory subject, the National Association broad and balanced curriculum, should be relevant to of Teachers of Religious Education…has warned that some all pupils’ background and beliefs. Crucially, the content headteachers are allocating less, or no, time to RE. A poll of of the RE syllabus is determined by the locally agreed nearly 800 schools in January found that 30 per cent have cut time syllabus conferences, which are appointed by the local for RE. With less time devoted to their subject, and potentially fewer pupils and funding, there are fears about job losses in standing advisory councils for religious education. Those non-EBac subjects.” councils know their communities and understand their needs. It is important that they have the freedom to That, of course, includes RE. The article then states: design an RE curriculum that is relevant and valued by “With RE, the DfE argues that because it is a statutory their community. subject, it will be protected. In the past, Mr Gove has said that ‘high-quality religious education is a characteristic of the very Less prescription in the curriculum will achieve better best schools; faith schools and non-faith schools’. But the RE teaching. It will enable teachers to do what only they community is not convinced. Mike Castelli, who sits on the RE can, which is to engage and inspire their pupils. The Council of England and Wales and is principal lecturer in education national curriculum review aims to prescribe only the at Roehampton University, is under no illusions that the statutory essential knowledge and concepts that children should nature of the subject will protect its importance in school. ‘What know and be taught, and to leave the professionals to secured it was Ofsted inspections, but Ofsted now doesn’t report on the curriculum in detail,’ he says. ‘Therefore there’s no comeback determine how to teach them. We must get away from to headteachers who decide they don’t want to put RE on at the mentality that says that just because a topic or GCSE level. The fact that RE is statutory is not doing what the subject is important, it has to be specified in the national Government thinks it is doing.” curriculum. Moreover, just because something is not in I could go on, but there is not enough time. I say to the national curriculum does not mean that it is not the Schools Minister that the situation is the result of important. That same principle applies to what is or is ill-considered, non-evidence-based policy being introduced not incorporated into the English baccalaureate. without consultation. The Government should drop RE has a locally developed syllabus, which is based this approach to making education policy. The Minister on the minimum prescription established in law, and we is not malevolent, but misguided. He will have to do a do not intend to change that. We want schools to have U-turn, and he is lucky that he will have to do it with greater freedom because central prescription and the regard to RE, because he knows that, in this case, for uniformity that it implies do not necessarily produce the sinners redemption is available. best outcomes. I can assure my hon. Friends the Members for 12.20 pm Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) and for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) that academies and free schools are required to The Minister of State, Department for Education teach RE as a condition of their funding agreement, (Mr Nick Gibb): I congratulate my hon. Friend the which reflects the importance that the Government Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on securing this attach to the subject. debate and on her opening speech, which set out the argument extremely well. This issue has engendered a Mrs Main: How would it be read if the humanities large volume of correspondence from hon. Members and geography were dropped out of the baccalaureate? and the Churches. We believe that religious education is I am sure that people would think that they were being an important subject. In fact, it is the only subject that devalued or downgraded. 49WH Religious Education17 MAY 2011 Religious Education 50WH

Mr Gibb: I will come on to why we have included making the subject compulsory, which would not be history and geography in a moment, which relates to good arguments for making it an option within the significant drops in the proportion of the cohort taking baccalaureate. both history and geography. I recognise that there are many concerns about the Mr Gibb: The arguments would be the same except fact that the non-inclusion of religious studies in the that it is unnecessary to make RE a component of the humanities component of the English baccalaureate English baccalaureate, because it is already compulsory could have an adverse impact on the study of the by law. That is the reasoning behind our decision not to subject. The E-bac recognises those pupils and those include RE in the humanities component. schools that succeed in securing achievement in the core RE is clearly a popular and successful subject. Judging subjects of English language, mathematics, the sciences, by the increasing proportion of students who take a a language and history or geography, which reflects GCSE, it is one that is taught to an academically what happens in other high-performing countries. rigorous standard. There has been an increase in RE Singapore, for example, has compulsory O-levels in GCSEs from 16% of the cohort in 2000 to 28% in 2010. English language, mother tongue, maths, combined In addition, 36% of the cohort was entered for the short humanities and science. In France, the brevet is made course GCSE in religious studies. By contrast, there has up of exams in French, maths, history, geography and been a decline in the numbers entered for GCSE in civics. In Japan, all students at the end of junior high history, geography and languages. school at the age of 15 are tested in Japanese, social rose— studies, maths, science and English, depending on the Mr Lammy prefecture. In Alberta, there are compulsory tests at 15 Mr Gibb: I will not give way to the right hon. Gentleman, in maths, science, social studies, English and French. In because I am running out of time. Poland, 16-year-olds are tested in humanities, Polish, The proportion of young people attempting geography maths, science and a foreign language. GCSE dropped from 37% in 2000 to 26% last year. We deliberately kept the English baccalaureate small Modern languages dropped from 79% in 2000 to 43% in enough to enable pupils to study other subjects, such as 2010. Of course 79% of pupils in the independent music, art, RE, economics or vocational subjects. My sector attempted at least one foreign language in 2010. concern is that the core academic subjects of the English We are determined to close the attainment gap between baccalaureate—English, maths, science, a language, history those from wealthier and poorer backgrounds, and this or geography—are being denied to too many pupils, is one tool in our toolbox to achieve that. especially the more disadvantaged. In 2010, only 8% of Our hope and expectation is that the English pupils eligible for free school meals were entered for the baccalaureate will encourage more students to study English baccalaureate subjects, with only 4% achieving history, geography and languages. As it is compulsory them. Of the 24% of non-free school meal pupils who to study RE until the age of 16, students will continue took the E-bac, 17% achieved it. to take RS GCSEs in addition to the English baccalaureate In 719 maintained mainstream schools, no pupil entered subjects. any of the single award science GCSEs. No pupil was My hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony entered for French in 169 secondary schools. No pupil Baldry) proposed having a humanity component of two was entered for geography in 137 schools and no pupil out of three options, including RE, in the humanities was entered for history in 70 schools. block. We have considered that, and we will continue to review it. The concern is that that will extend the size of John Pugh: May I disabuse the Minister of his view the E-bac to seven or eight GCSEs, making it less small that I was arguing for a change in the legal status of and therefore restricting the space for vocational education, RE? I was trying to explore whether there are good music and the arts and for those who do not want to arguments that he could give that are rationales for study RE to GCSE. 51WH 17 MAY 2011 Forensic Science Service 52WH

Forensic Science Service provision will survive under the Government’s proposals; I will question the financial argument being put by the 12.30 pm Government; and I will ask whether the Minister is willing to risk serious damage to the quality of justice Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): by implementing these reforms. Thank you, Dr McCrea, for calling me. I am pleased to As I mentioned previously, my concern about this serve under your chairmanship, and I am also pleased issue began when I recently visited the northern firearms to secure this debate on the future of the Forensic unit, which is part of the FSS. My visit was at the Science Service. invitation of a constituent who has worked in this My interest in this subject began with a visit from one sector for more than 24 years and is deeply concerned of my constituents, who works as a senior forensic by the Government’s plans. He is one of several specialists scientist at the northern firearms unit in Manchester. It at the unit who are called on to support the police at was at his invitation that I was able to visit that facility, scenes of shootings around the clock, 365 days a year. which is part of the wider FSS. I intend to say a little Their laboratory analysis can shed important light on more about the unit later in my speech, but first I want the circumstances surrounding a crime. By looking at to say that my constituency owes a wider debt to the wounds, blood patterns and bullet casings, they can work of the FSS. determine how a person was shot, the number of weapons I am sure that Members are familiar with the crimes involved and even if the same gun has been involved of Dr Harold Shipman. He was a trusted family doctor in other shootings. The unit has played a major role in my constituency who murdered more than 200 of his in solving a number of high-profile gun crimes and in patients in what remains this country’s worst case of a achieving the subsequent convictions. serial killer. Without the detailed toxicology evidence The unit’s success relies, however, on the flexibility to that the FSS offered to the courts, it is questionable devote the time necessary to each investigation. Staff at whether the extent of his killings would ever have been the unit fear that many of their successes might not proven. This single example is a powerful reminder of have been possible within the financial constraints of a the capacity that the FSS gives to our law enforcement more commercial market. They also fear that private agencies. providers are unlikely to offer the guaranteed on-call The 1,100 highly trained staff in the FSS have the service that is required. I am sure that private companies skills and expertise to identify an offender or unravel will bid for the work of the FSS, but the risk is that they the chain of events that led to a crime, often from will cherry-pick the quickest, least labour-intensive and studying no more than a pattern of blood, a strand of most profitable parts, which could have a serious impact hair or the tread-markings left by a shoe. Their unrivalled on the quality of justice delivered by our court system. range of expertise includes the analysis of documents, mobile phones, toxicology, marks and traces, DNA, Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I commend the hon. firearms, fibres and hair. Their analysis has helped to Gentleman for securing this debate, and I agree with the secure convictions in 220 so-called “cold cases”, and a points he is making. Does he agree that another factor further 600 cases are actively under review. Among their to consider is that the FSS, which I have also visited, groundbreaking achievements was the establishment of keeps an awful lot of DNA samples taken from crime the world’s first national DNA database. The FSS is scenes, and that it seems that the Government have not now based in four laboratories across the country and it given much thought to what will happen to all those deals with up to 120,000 cases a year, regardless of their samples when the FSS closes? The work done by the complexity. The quality of its meticulous work has FSS is far too important for us simply to hope that earned the FSS the respect of experts from around the something will be put in its place. The Government globe. need to ensure that something is in place before they go In December 2010, the Government announced that ahead with the closure of the FSS. the FSS will close by the end of March 2012. As I understand it, the Government hope that the closure of Jonathan Reynolds: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the FSS will increase competition. They believe that the that intervention and I absolutely agree with him. I will vacuum created by its absence will immediately be filled address the point he makes later in my speech. by private providers and in-house police force provision, I visited the firearms archive in Manchester, which is and they hope that by creating a more commercial truly something to be seen. It is important not only for market prices will be driven down and turnaround cross-referencing crimes with other crimes but for the times improved. expertise that goes with that work. Using the archive I have real fears, however, that the absence of the FSS properly is absolutely crucial, but I understand that the will impact on the quality of justice in the courts. I Government have not yet decided what will happen to know that no Member would want to back proposals it. The future of the archive is very important. that would directly result in our losing the ability to carry out this kind of work. I hope that raising these Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): I concerns today will lead the Government to take a will be cautious in my remarks because I am Chair of second look at their plans. the Science and Technology Committee and we are in Any changes to the FSS must have the integrity of the middle of an inquiry into this issue. I am pleased to our judicial system at their core. There are still too see that two of my assiduous colleagues on the many questions about the scope and quality of the Committee—the hon. Members for Croydon Central provision that will be available following the closure of (Gavin Barwell) and for South Basildon and East Thurrock the FSS. In my remarks today, I will consider whether (Stephen Metcalfe)—are in Westminster Hall for this the high standards, impartiality and scope of the current debate; they both play an important role on the Committee. 53WH Forensic Science Service17 MAY 2011 Forensic Science Service 54WH

One strand of evidence given by many people is Moreover, that step would have financial implications about the Birmingham archive for the FSS, which is the of its own. I understand that the Government have central records store of the FSS operation. Everyone is already made it clear that additional funds would not arguing that the archive needs to be kept intact and be available for police forces that wished to increase protected and made accessible for the investigations their own laboratory capacity. If the police choose to that my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and increase their in-house provision of forensic services, Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) has referred to. Following they will also have to address the issue of impartiality. his own research, does he agree that protecting the We are well aware of the importance of justice being Birmingham archive is a necessary part of the process? seen to be done as well as being done, but where the police are both the forensic science provider and customer, Jonathan Reynolds: I agree absolutely and I thank my questions are bound to be asked. Of course, among the hon. Friend, the Chairman of the Select Committee, incidents that are likely to cause concern are those and indeed other members of the Select Committee for involving police officers themselves. attending today. I have read through much of the evidence they have received. Given the limited time for this Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) debate, it is not possible to go through all the evidence, (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the police but my hon. Friend’s point about the Birmingham have already taken a great deal of forensic science archive is particularly important and I hope the Minister in-house, and that the trend in the marketplace, which will be able to offer us some assurance about the archive. perhaps has led to some of the current problems, has been caused by the police doing that and leaving less The northern firearms unit, which I visited, is just and less for people to fight over? one of many disciplines offered by the FSS. It is a small but significant cog in a much larger wheel. No private provider is currently able to offer the same breadth of Jonathan Reynolds: I recognise that point. The statistics forensic services and expertise as the FSS, whose holistic show that income from the sector has decreased as approach is a clear benefit to our judicial system. By functions have been taken in-house. A point I would offering such a comprehensive range of services, it is in like to address later in my speech is that some functions an unrivalled position to determine what is required can be taken in-house but others cannot, and we must from a crime scene and to provide the data. maintain that capacity. Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): The hon. Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I congratulate Gentleman is being very generous with his time in the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. giving way. Further to the point my hon. Friend the The FSS has a range of responsibilities and inputs. Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Does he agree that, given the unfortunate potential for a Metcalfe) has just made, does the hon. Gentleman not rise in terrorist offences—or at least the threat of terrorist agree that although the Government have to take some offences—as well as the more regular criminal activity action because of the FSS’s financial situation, the that the FSS deals with as part of the justice system, market that their strategy seeks to create is being diminished there are concerns about resilience in dealing with terror? each year by the increasing level of police in-house provision? Jonathan Reynolds: I agree. Our capacity to deal with an incident such as a major terrorist incident is one of Jonathan Reynolds: Yes. The hon. Gentleman’s point the most pressing problems we face. I think we would all is crucial because if the market is not rigorous and agree that, whatever the costs involved, we simply cannot robust, there will be nothing there to fill the gap created be without the capacity to respond to such incidents by the absence of the FSS. appropriately. As well as being active in the immediate aftermath of By working across a range of services, the FSS offers a crime, the FSS also secures convictions in so-called a holistic approach that allows its specialists to evaluate cold cases. Over many years, it has built up archives of the relative importance of any crime scene before a case more than 1.5 million case files and a vast number of goes to court. Without that holistic approach, the danger retained materials, including DNA, fibres and recovered is that analysis of a crime scene would have to be debris. The application of advanced forensic techniques delivered piecemeal by different providers. That would to archive material by FSS scientists has helped to introduce unnecessary confusion and possibly compromise secure convictions for more than 220 historical crimes. justice. That work would not be possible without the archives, In addition, there is the challenge of maintaining but we do not know what will happen to them when the standards if the FSS is closed. The ability to determine FSS is closed. Other Members have made that point, that current levels of accuracy are maintained will be and the Government dearly need to address it. In addition, crucial. At present, members of the European Network we do not know what will happen to the unrivalled of Forensic Science Institutes, such as the FSS, must be collection of firearms currently in the FSS’s possession. accredited. However, with the exception of those dealing The dissolution of the FSS will clearly require something with DNA there are no statutory requirements for to emerge to fill its place and continue its important forensic science companies or in-house police departments work. The Government have claimed that there is no to comply with any published standards. Few of us reason to think that the private sector would be unable would think that these plans to close the FSS could to meet the demand for forensic services; but where, come into force until stronger requirements were in Minister—as the FSS itself might ask—is the evidence? place to ensure that all providers must meet minimum As uncertainty continues to surround the provision of standards. forensic science services in the UK, significant numbers 55WH Forensic Science Service17 MAY 2011 Forensic Science Service 56WH

[Jonathan Reynolds] and the sensitivities that surround it. Forensic science is clearly a vital tool of the criminal justice system and of scientists are taking up jobs overseas or choosing to one which deserves proper consideration by this House. move on to other careers, and the coverage offered by The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Harold Shipman the current private forensic science providers is broad in case, which is just one of the most dramatic—in many neither scope nor geography. I am told, for instance, ways terrible, obviously—of the many cases in which that not one provider in the south of England specialises forensic science plays a vital role. The Forensic Science in firearms. Following the reduction in the market, Service has had a proud tradition of providing an questions have been asked about the financial stability excellent, professional service to the whole criminal of a number of accredited private providers. Can the justice system, but its financial circumstances meant Minister tell us what safeguards there will be to ensure that decisive action was needed to maintain the continuity that all the required forensic specialisms are available in of supply of forensic services to that system. In the end, the new marketplace? I think that what all our constituents will most care We also need to ask what will happen in the wake of a about is that the system continues in an efficient fashion. major terrorist incident. In the immediate aftermath of Let me go through why the announcement has had to the bombings and attempted bombings of 7 and 21 July, be made and answer some of the questions asked by the more than 100 FSS scientists were called on to analyse hon. Gentleman and by other Members on both sides 4,500 items. Drawing on those experts in DNA, document of the House. The situation that led to the Government’s examination, mobile phone analysis, toxicology, and announcement to manage the closure of the FSS last marks and traces it was possible to determine what had December is clear: the challenging forensics market put happened. Thankfully, such incidents are not commonplace, the FSS in serious financial difficulty. As the hon. but the warning this week reminds us that we never Gentleman said, the FSS had monthly operating losses know when the next incident might be—we know only of about £2 million and faced the prospect of further that there is likely to be one. shrinkage in demand for forensic services. The Government The FSS is the only UK organisation with forensic have invested significant amounts of money in recent experience of terrorist attacks. Without it, who would years in restructuring the FSS, but the downturn in the have the capability and capacity to provide the vital forensics market unfortunately meant that further evidence that our judicial system requires? It is not investment in restructuring the company was no longer acceptable to leave the UK unable to deal with the a viable option. aftermath of a major terrorist attack, and if the Government We considered three options to resolve the financial cannot prove that their plans have the rigour to cope, difficulties faced by the FSS: uncontrolled administration, they should withdraw them immediately and think again. further restructuring of the company, and a managed When there are so many unanswered questions and wind-down. Without the prospect of further financial so many risks attached, I wonder why the Government help, the FSS board would have been forced to place the have started down this path. I fear that they have made company into administration in early 2011. Uncontrolled a mistake in reaching their decision to close the FSS, administration would have seriously damaged the forensics and that they will soon regret it. They have repeatedly capability available to the criminal justice system, and insisted that the FSS—currently a Government-owned we were not prepared to take that risk. From everything company—makes monthly losses of about £2 million, that the hon. Gentleman said in his speech, I imagine he and I understand that they hope that a more commercial would agree that such a risk should not have been market will drive prices down and improve turnaround countenanced in any way. Although further restructuring times. The Government’s plans, however, do not seem would have had less impact on the criminal justice add up. system than losing the FSS overnight, it would not have In recent months, the FSS has closed down three solved the key underlying problem of reduced levels of laboratory sites and shed 750 staff as part of a drive to customer demand. The FSS had already received a make itself more competitive. It is believed to be on £50 million grant for restructuring, and although it has track to make the required level of savings, yet the significantly reduced the size of its business, the market Government themselves admit that the £2 million figure has continued to contract. The FSS’s share of the they repeatedly use to justify their plans takes no account market has also shrunk as other competent companies of the significant savings made by the restructuring have won police contracts through the police procurement programme. process. That, combined with EU state aid and competition We know that the service provided by the FSS is law constraints, meant that further restructuring was exceptionally good. I can say without hesitation that its simply no longer viable. work has made my city, my constituency and my community I strongly believe that the managed wind-down of the safer, and the same is true for other Members. I hope, FSS is the right choice, both financially and for the therefore, that the Minister understands how concerned criminal justice system. Several Members have asked many of us are about the possibility of losing the FSS, about the attitude of other people within the criminal and is able to offer me some solid assurances in his justice system. We consulted key partners across the response today. system before making this decision, and their collective view is that a managed closure is in the best interests of the system as a whole. 12.44 pm The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): I echo Andrew Miller: I would be the first to acknowledge other Members in congratulating the hon. Member for that the GovCo process had not been as successful as Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) on securing was hoped. What worries me about the position taken this debate. I am aware of the importance of this issue by the Minister and his colleagues is that no one can tell 57WH Forensic Science Service17 MAY 2011 Forensic Science Service 58WH us what the economic facts are. Simply talking about forensic suppliers to develop their capacity to meet any the FSS’s expenditure is not adequate; we need to know additional requirements. That approach will also enable the capital expenditure on forensic science—programmes the FSS’s business and assets to be transferred in order past and present—of every police authority, but neither to build a healthy market around other existing forensic the Home Office nor the Association of Chief Police suppliers, which already account for about 35% of the Officers can provide that information. Until that forensics market. That is clearly a significant point. information is available, I am afraid that the Minister Some may think that there is no one out there and this will have a hard job convincing people of what might be is a leap in the dark, but more than one third of the a meritorious case. market is already in the hands of other operators. Damian Green: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s Jonathan Reynolds: Does the Minister accept that point, and I have read the evidence given to the Science many of the prices currently offered by private sector and Technology Committee by the Under-Secretary of providers are the result of competition with the FSS? If State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the that is taken away, there is a chance that the marketplace Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), could consolidate or prices could rise, which would not a few weeks ago. He was pressed for that information, be in our interests. Further to that, many of the people and undertook to go away and find it out. The hon. in that specialist area have been trained by the FSS. As I Gentleman said that he requires the full economic case. understand it, private sector providers’ prices do not The starkest economic point is simply that the FSS is take into account the increased cost base of training draining money away. Money has been put into their own people to be as skilled as they need to be to restructuring, and it has not worked. As he said, the cover all the specialisms currently being covered. previous Government set up a GovCo in an attempt to solve the problem, but sadly, that has not worked. We knew that we could not carry on as before. The Government Damian Green: The hon. Gentleman makes the valid were faced with a set of options, and I am trying to point that competition drives prices down and makes explain why we chose what we did. industries more efficient. That is a universal truth. However, a competitive market exists, and the managed Andrew Miller: I understand where the Minister is wind-down of the FSS will enable the individual players coming from, and we have been told today that the in that market to become more competitive and the Home Office cannot provide that information because market itself to become a more effective area of competition. it is impossible to calculate, but the starkest economic The Government want the UK’s forensic science industry fact is that we do not know how we are managing public to operate as a genuine market, with private sector money that has been spent on forensic science. Surely it providers competing to provide innovative services at must be the Minister’s highest priority to work out that the lowest cost. That will, inter alia, preserve police conundrum. resources and maximise the positive impact that forensic Damian Green: It is certainly a priority, but the hon. sciences can have on tackling crime. A competitive Gentleman will know that the operational expenditure market can help drive down prices and improve turnaround of individual police forces is a matter for chief constables. times, meaning that serious crimes can be cleared up [Interruption.] He makes a gesture, but it would be more quickly and efficiently. Ultimately, I am sure that wrong for Home Office Ministers to try to detail every that is what we all want. piece of expenditure by every police force in the country. Research and development in forensic science is essential By going down that route, we have over-managed police to ensure the continued availability of a high-quality, forces and other public services, to their detriment. I am efficient forensic science capability for the criminal justice afraid he will have to bite the bullet: allowing the police system. Historically, such research has been undertaken operational independence is an important way to improve by a wide range of organisations, including the private the service. sector, Government-owned laboratories and academia. Philip Davies: On the operational independence of Our decision took into account the need to manage the police, the Minister will be aware that some of the the impact on forensic science research and development fiercest criticism of the closure of the FSS has come in the UK. Unfortunately, the FSS’s financial position from police chief constables, including the chief constable had already limited the capacity for research and of South Yorkshire, who said that it would development for which it had become renowned. During the managed wind-down, we are working closely with “have a ‘disproportionate effect’ on forces in Yorkshire and the North East because they are more reliant on the service than the police, the FSS, the Crown Prosecution Service and constabularies elsewhere.” other forensic providers to consider how the industry If the views of the police are so important, will he bear can build on existing expertise and continue the UK’s in mind their views on the closure of the FSS? renowned research and innovation.

Damian Green: Absolutely. My hon. Friend leads me Gavin Barwell: The Minister outlined the options neatly into what I was about to say. The Association of that the Government considered when taking the decision. Chief Police Officers, in particular, is clear that the Did they consider restricting the police’s ability to provide forensic markets can cope with the managed wind-down in-house forensic services? That might have given the of the FSS, and ACPO has been closely involved in the FSS a larger market in which to compete. As he will process being carried out by the Government. know if he has studied the evidence received by the To address the fears about uncertainty, the managed Select Committee, many private sector suppliers have wind-down of the FSS will allow time for the restructuring expressed concerns about their ability to invest in the of the timetable for tendering new contracts, for the future in a declining market if police provision continues re-tendering of existing FSS contracts and for other to increase. 59WH Forensic Science Service 17 MAY 2011 60WH

Damian Green: I am aware of the evidence given to Problem Gambling the Select Committee. Perhaps this is a good time for me to address directly the question of how objective the advice given to police forces on forensic science will be if 1pm the service is provided in-house. The evidential value Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve and integrity of forensic exhibits is tested under the under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea. intense scrutiny of the courts—from the point of collection, through analysis to interpretation and reporting. Each The gambling sector is a highly successful industry in step in the process must be able to withstand such this country, employing more than 100,000 people and critical review, not least because the first body that the contributing more than £1.4 billion to the Exchequer in police must convince in any prosecution is the CPS. betting and gambling duty alone. A large majority of That is now an independent function. Fears that something the British public enjoy gambling as a leisure activity, untoward will happen if an individual police force does with 73% of the UK population participating last year its own forensics in-house can be overstated. alone, which is an increase of 5% from 2007. In his excellent book, “Gambling: A Healthy Bet”, Patrick Keeping one eye on the clock, I will deal directly with Basham finds that gamblers tend to participate more in one or two other points raised in the debate. On the community and social activities than non-gamblers and question of what will happen to the FSS’s archives, the donate more to charity. However, for a small proportion— Government obviously recognise their importance in 0.9%, according to the latest prevalent study—gambling academic terms and, perhaps even more importantly, to can develop into a problem that negatively affects their the investigation of cold cases. The forensic transition lives. board has set up an archiving project board with members from the Home Office, the FSS, ACPO and key partners What we must bear in mind, however, is that 0.9% is a across the criminal justice system to recommend options very small amount. Many experts in the field have for the handling and retention of FSS records so that concluded that the small rise in the number of those historical data remain available to the criminal justice with problem gambling in the latest prevalent study system. As part of that, we will seek to ensure that the may not be a true representation of an increase in necessary expertise remains to work on the data and problem gambling; it may well be that problem gambling mine them in the future. is both better reported and more socially acceptable today and that its true extent is now, therefore, becoming Doubt was expressed about whether private providers more apparent. Nevertheless, it is difficult to think of will be able to cope, particularly with a major incident any other policy area in which 0.9% of the population such as 7/7. As I mentioned, ACPO has made it clear affects Government policy as markedly as seems to be that the forensics market can cope with the managed the case with gambling. wind-down of the FSS. An orderly wind-down, which is what we are managing, will allow adequate time for the As with all other forms of addiction, there will always current forensics framework to be restructured, for existing be a proportion of the population who are addicted to FSS contracts to be re-tendered and for other suppliers gambling. It is impossible to eliminate addiction, no to increase their capability. We are reviewing the FSS matter how much money, how many programmes or functions as part of the process of managed closure. how much treatment is provided. The blame for an The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, addiction should not be placed at the industry’s door, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup, because it is not the industry itself that makes people who is the Minister responsible for crime and security, addicts—it merely offers a service—but the individuals has kept Members informed of the Government’s plans themselves. We should therefore treat the problem, which so far and will continue to do so, particularly those is the person concerned, and stop attacking the product. Members who have forensic science sites in their constituencies. Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Is the hon. Gentleman not concerned that bookmakers in particular The Government are aware that the decision to manage are saturating many of our high streets, particularly in the closure of the FSS has put employees and their London? Although a few shops might satisfy demand, a families in a difficult position. My hon. Friend has proliferation of them and an increase to nine or 10 personally— shops on one stretch of high road can, frankly, only promote gambling and addictive behaviour among the Dr William McCrea (in the Chair): Order. We must poorest. move on to the next debate. Philip Davies: No, I am not. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has a bee in his bonnet about this issue, but I do not share his concern. I believe in the free market and the market of supply and demand. If there is not enough demand to meet the supply of those shops, they will close down. I am sure that he would prefer high streets to have betting shops rather than shops that have been boarded over and are ripe for vandalism. I certainly welcome betting shops moving on to the high street when other shops will not. It is for the reason that I have outlined that I disagree with the premise that the gambling industry should be compelled to fund the treatment of problem gambling. It seems absurd, especially as fast-food companies such 61WH Problem Gambling17 MAY 2011 Problem Gambling 62WH as Burger King and Krispy Kreme do not fund research that have no natural end, which provides them with and treatment into obesity. I used to work for Asda and greater control over their gambling. Employees in gambling I cannot remember anybody saying that Asda was companies also receive responsible gambling awareness expected to fund treatment of obesity just because we training, which assists them in identifying the triggers happened to sell cream cakes down one of our aisles. It and causes of problem gambling and raises awareness seems that gambling is treated on a completely different of the relevant support agencies and the policies, processes basis from those other industries. and regulatory requirements that surround the gambling Discussion of the issue also strikes me as industry. disproportionate. The gambling industry’s funding target is set at £6 million for 2011 and £7 million for 2012. In David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Does the hon. contrast, the Portman Group, another highly regarded Gentleman see a role for educationalists or schools in organisation, raised £6.3 million between 2007 and helping to educate young people about the danger of 2009 for their trust’s education and campaigning work. gambling addiction? Given that the UK alcoholic drinks industry is valued at more than £30 billion, the demands on the gambling Philip Davies: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair sector seem less than fair or consistent, to say the least. point. I encourage him to read Patrick Basham’s book, Nevertheless, we are where we are for the time being. “Gambling: A Healthy Bet”, which talks about how Given that the industry is pouring so much money into developing an understanding of risk at an earlier age is the issue, and given that it has the greatest vested good for people in terms of not just gambling, but their interest of all in the money being spent wisely and in skills for the rest of their lives. I certainly think that being successful in reducing problem gambling, does there is much merit in what Patrick Basham writes in his the Minister not agree that it would be fairer and make book. more sense if it had a greater role in how the money that it gives is spent? Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): Is my hon. Friend In October 2008, the Gambling Commission aware that there is currently no GamCare treatment recommended the establishment of a new structure to provider available on Merseyside? The closest is in raise and distribute funding for gambling research, Manchester. Does he know whether that will be addressed? education and treatment. The previous Labour Government insisted that if a voluntary agreement was not reached, Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is, as ever, on the ball they would intervene and ensure that a statutory levy with what is happening in her area. She has quickly was installed. I am interested to hear the Minister’s established a reputation for herself as a champion of definition of “voluntary”, because that certainly is not her constituents and her area. She is absolutely right what I understand the term to mean. that Merseyside currently lacks a GamCare treatment As a result, new bodies were created. The GREaT facility. It is not GamCare’s fault; its provider had Foundation—Gambling Research, Education and Treatment funding from other agencies taken away, so it has closed —raises funds for research, education and treatment of down. I know that GamCare shares my hon. Friend’s problem gambling by collecting voluntary donations concern that there should be a provider on Merseyside, from the gambling industry. The Responsible Gambling and I hope that it will be able to find a replacement Strategy Board advises Ministers and the Gambling provider soon for the benefit of her constituents. Commission on priorities of funding, and the Responsible GamCare has established a national helpline with an Gambling Fund is an independent charity that was set international reputation, and an infrastructure delivering up to distribute the money raised. In addition, there are counselling to 70% of the country. The helpline, including three expert advisory panels. Can the Minister explain a net-line live chat service and forum, provides a service why we need all of those? Why can the body that raises for gamblers and others affected by gambling. The the money not be trusted also to allocate it? In short, we helpline receives about 1,000 calls a week. It offers help appear to have a bureaucratic nightmare—not to mention and support to people in crisis, some of them suicidal. the cost. The Responsible Gambling Strategy Board GamCare’s professionally trained advisers explore the costs about £250,000 a year just to run, which does not best way to support the caller by signposting them to give any benefit to those suffering from problem gambling. debt advice, family therapy, self-exclusion or further Almost half the funding last year was given to a counselling. charity called GamCare, which is the leading provider In 2010-11, GamCare provided sustained confidential of information, advice, support and free counselling for counselling for some 2,500 people, which is 20% more the prevention and treatment of problem gambling. than the previous year. GamCare also worked closely GamCare has established a responsible gambling code with the National Problem Gambling clinic in London of practice and certification process that have been to provide the best treatment for customers. And it adopted by many of the successful betting companies. works; some two thirds of the problem gamblers it The 11-point code consists of an age verification-parental treats are no longer problem gamblers at the end of supervision process, encourages a balanced advertising their treatment. At the beginning of counselling, 88% of and promotional message for gambling companies, and GamCare’s clients are assessed as problem gamblers; by allows customers to set a daily, weekly or monthly the end of treatment, that figure is 28%. deposit limit on their gambling accounts. GamCare has calculated the cost-benefit analysis of Other initiatives include a self-exclusion policy whereby its treatment. It has estimated that each problem gambler customers can close their accounts for six months, after costs the state about £8,000 a year. With 450,000 problem which they must present a written case for why they gamblers in the UK, that could mean an annual bill of should be allowed to use their accounts again. Customers about £3.5 billion. In contrast, GamCare has estimated can also limit their session times for games or events that, on average, it costs just £650 to treat each individual. 63WH Problem Gambling17 MAY 2011 Problem Gambling 64WH

[Philip Davies] money is being pumped into a situation where it is being badly spent. The structure that was put in place With two-thirds of clients successfully ceasing to be nearly three years ago is just not working. There has problem gamblers at the end of their treatment, that been time for it to prove itself and, sadly, it has failed. produces a return on investment that is greater than Most of the people involved in the industry would 8:1—compared with the treatment for drug users, where recognise that. the return is estimated at just 2.5:1. That surely highlights The answer to this conundrum is threefold: strip away that the money is well spent and that expanding the the unnecessary levels of bureaucracy; let those experts service should be a priority. on the front line, who know how to help people in GamCare has recently launched a new e-learning trouble, get on with delivering and expanding their package, with the aim of helping more companies to existing services; and put proper programmes quickly in improve their standards of player protection. Considering place to educate those most in need. that there are 127,500 people under the age of 24 with a The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport gambling problem in the UK, GamCare is ready to appeared before the Select Committee on Culture, Media introduce education into schools and for parents, and and Sport, of which I am a member, and expressed his to open the communication lines with GPs. That is all concern about problem gambling and the importance ready to go if the funding is in place. However, at a time that the Government attach to dealing with the matter. when more money than ever is available—a funding It is therefore the Government’s responsibility to ensure target of £6 million this year and £7 million next that there is a coherent strategy for education, prevention year—the industry is seeing more and more of it swept and treatment. The industry needs an effective body up into burgeoning bureaucracy. that makes good strategic decisions about risks and In particular, the Responsible Gambling Fund established takes proportionate measures in terms of allocating under the previous Government is crippling front-line funding to deal with problem gambling. The majority services, which is where the money is needed most. In of the research should go to treatment providers and 2009-10, the RGF spent almost £500,000 on staff costs there is no justifiable reason why GamCare should not and overheads, including £51,000 on consultancy. Even remain as the principal treatment provider and operator more interestingly, it is estimated that those costs will of the national helpline. have risen by 10% for the year 2010-11. In an age of The industry, working directly with the charities, can austerity, such an attempt at empire building is extremely step up to the plate and sort out the issue of problem worrying, and it is vital that we guard against the gambling, but it would find it easier if it knew that it growth of a monster that constantly calls for more and had the Minister’s support in stripping away bureaucracy, more money, bigger and bigger budgets and more and getting the money quickly to the front line and trusting more employees to deal with a problem that is being the experts. I hope that the Minister will give me his tackled effectively by organisations such as GamCare. assurance today that that is what the Government will do. On top of that, the RGF is funding eight PhD studentships at an average of £20,000 a year to widen participation in gambling-related research as a means 1.15 pm of informing public policy. That is a prime example of the unfocused nature of its research. In addition, the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, RGF has done very little on education for adolescents, Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose): It is a while GamCare has already researched and outlined a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Dr McCrea. fully costed actionable programme to implement. Can I will endeavour to respond to the points made by my the Minister enlighten us about what research commissioned hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) in by the RGF has led to a major policy implementation order, if I possibly can. I am delighted that he has taken that has made a real difference to reducing problem the trouble to air this important and potentially gambling? If he can do that, he is doing better than I tremendously troubling issue in Parliament. It is a topic can. that does not get enough balanced and careful debate, The people on the front line desperately need that and I therefore pay tribute to him for raising it. Some of money to fund treatment and to launch education and the issues surrounding the problem deserve a fuller and prevention programmes. In contrast, GamCare’s funding more careful exploration and I welcome his initiative in for 2010-11 has been frozen, which makes it difficult seeking to do so. even to maintain existing services, let alone develop new I also welcome my hon. Friend’s opening comments. ones. Furthermore, the RGF has decided that GamCare’s He is absolutely right to say that, for the vast majority helpline should become a national problem gambling of people, gambling is fine if it is done carefully and in telephone helpline, thus throwing away the industry’s moderation. In many cases, gambling causes no problems investment over many years in an established and successful and is a source of innocent fun and enjoyment. It is the service and brand. same as enjoying an occasional glass of wine or pint of GamCare is currently basing its programmes on interim beer—it causes no problem for anybody. He also rightly funding on a month-by-month basis, when what it went on to say that, sadly, that is not the case for a small really needs is a strategic three-year funding programme. but real minority of people. I am sure that everybody In fact, with the correct funding, GamCare could provide here regrets and is concerned about the current figure of the treatment, education and prevention services—either 0.9% of people who gamble turning into problem gamblers. itself or with the appropriate partners—for an annual In focusing on those unfortunate people and what we cost of around £3.5 million a year. The Government can do for them, however, we should not lose sight of should concentrate on ensuring that the money is well the fact that, for the vast majority of people who spent, rather than just ensuring that more and more participate in gambling, it is a harmless and enjoyable 65WH Problem Gambling17 MAY 2011 Problem Gambling 66WH source of fun. He is absolutely right to put the matter in gambling is far less advanced than the medicalisation of context and to lay out that framework before we get other kinds of addiction. The level of treatment provided into the detail. in the NHS for other kinds of addiction—for example, I must confess that I was a little concerned when my substance abuse—has been longer established than that hon. Friend started to make the point that he is not sure provided for gambling addiction. There are moves in whether gambling companies should be funding research the NHS to do more, but he is right to say that there has and help for problem gambling. He then moderated his to be a partnership between the industry and publicly- point a bit and said that it is entirely reasonable—he funded bodies to address the issue. gave the example of the Portman Group in the drinks My hon. Friend has discussed the current arrangements. industry and in doing so seemed to accept the principle—for He is right to say that they have been in place for not companies involved in these kinds of industries to contribute quite two years. They stem from a report in 2008 and something. His point is not that it is wrong in principle; were implemented in 2009. I must confess that when I rather he is arguing about the level of contribution. It is began my current role as Minister with responsibility important we accept that principle and that all hon. for this issue, just under a year into the new arrangements, Members agree that companies involved in such an I looked at the history. It is true to say that there was a industry, whether we are talking about alcohol or gambling, series of different attempts before the current arrangements accept that they have a broader social duty to act and were set up. I think that this is either the second or the behave responsibly towards the small minority of people third set of institutional architecture that has been whom their products potentially harm. imposed in this area. While there were people who made the precisely the same points as my hon. Friend Mr Lammy: The Minister has paid some attention to on the concerns about the level of bureaucracy and cost the small proportion of problem gamblers, as has the in the current structure, a third or fourth reorganisation hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). Does he would have been something that both the industry, and recognise that the prevalence study also reveals that to be fair problem gamblers, probably needed like a hole there has been a 50% increase in gambling in society in the head at that point. He is, however, right to make since 2007? That is significant and of concern. the fundamental point. It is always correct for everybody to want to get the maximum possible value for money John Penrose: I completely accept what I think is the from any funds put towards treating an addiction problem, right hon. Gentleman’s underlying point: that one figure—it such as problem gambling. It is therefore sensible for us was just into the area of statistical significance, although to look periodically at whether we are getting the best it was right at the borderline—in the recent gambling possible value for money. prevalence survey shows that there has been an increase The small caveat that I add to my hon. Friend’s in the number of problem gamblers. That figure has remarks is that, yes, the Government need to be comfortable partly been driven by the fact that more people are with this, but we also need to bear in mind that the gambling, many of whom create no problem at all. organisations that he talked about are overwhelmingly— However, the fact that the total number of gamblers has exclusively, in this case—funded by the industry itself. increased and that a proportion of those are problem This is industry money, not public money. We are not gamblers means that there has been a statistically significant talking about a public bureaucracy, or an Executive increase. He is absolutely right to point that out. I hope agency of either my Department, the Department of that I struck the right balance in my earlier remarks Health or any other branch of Government. Those about the need to put that into context. We are not organisations are, rightly in my view, funded and organised doing too badly internationally and, relatively speaking, by the industry, and they include people who are involved other countries have higher proportions of people who in treating and dealing with gambling addiction. They are problem gamblers, but I am sure he agrees that that share a very heavy proportion of the burden of trying is absolutely no cause for either complacency or relaxation. to ensure that the maximum possible value for money is We need to ensure that we remain alive to the matter, so achieved. I am glad that he made that intervention. My hon. Friend is also right to say that the new To return to the earlier comments made by my hon. arrangements have been in place for nearly two years, so Friend the Member for Shipley, I am delighted that he there is beginning to be enough of a track record to accepts the principle that it is right for companies evaluate whether it is effective. In the course of the involved in this kind of industry to contribute and to coming 12 months, that track record will be well bedded-in, remain responsible. To be fair, almost without exception, and it will be sensible to start evaluating whether the the vast majority of people I have met in the gambling value for money that everyone wants to see is being and gaming industries are keen to ensure that they achieved. He is enunciating a very sensible principle. recognise and live up to that duty. They are delighted to The plea that I would make, and the principle that I let it be known that they want to do that. There is an want us to establish, is that while Government clearly acceptance in the industry, and I think in society as a have an interest, we would expect the charities concerned whole, that that is appropriate for companies involved and the industry to take a leading role as well. in the industry. There may be an argument about the level of collaboration and involvement, which is entirely Philip Davies: I welcome the comments that the Minister appropriate, but there is a broad cross-party consensus. has made so far, and I agree with what he has just said. I accept my hon. Friend’s point, however, that it is The industry needs to play a leading role. Will he not only up to the industry. Clearly, Government and accept, therefore, that it would be far better if the public health have a role. Organisations are starting to gambling industry, which funds all this, had much more move into and participate in this area—the NHS has of a say in how the money is spent to ensure that it is been participating for some time. It is interesting to note spent effectively? The industry pays the money, but it that—if I can call it this—the medicalisation of problem often has very little say in how it is actually spent. 67WH Problem Gambling17 MAY 2011 Problem Gambling 68WH

John Penrose: That is a fair point, although it has a widespread suspicion, there is no academically-solid practical limit. It is perfectly reasonable for the gambling underpinning as yet to justify it. From my point of view, industry to be a force for good and to expect it to want therefore, it is extremely difficult for any gambling to ensure that the money that it is donating is spent in Minister to take effective decisions about whether particular an appropriate way. Other stakeholders will, none the kinds of gambling should be expanded or reduced, less, want to be convinced that the gambling industry because there is not an adequate evidential basis on would not—I am sure that it would not, but this is the which to build a proper business case, or a proper fear—give money and then direct the research into political consensus. Into that vacuum, rushes everybody areas that were comfortable for the gambling industry, with their favourite prejudice. Everybody has an answer but not necessarily in the best interests of the wider about the reasons why we have this amount of problem issue of problem gambling. The gambling industry needs gambling here and that amount of problem gambling to push forward an agenda of value for money and the there, but nobody has enough facts to form a solid effective use of the cash that they are donating, but the evidential basis on which to build a reason for changing gambling industry will need other stakeholders to create the law. I have therefore asked the various bodies to the right level of credibility in deciding where the money prioritise research that will provide that kind of evidential goes in the same way that the Government currently basis, and they have agreed to do so. Clearly, they must give money for academic research, but research funding then decide what that will be—it needs to be at arm’s councils decide which research projects are selected. length from Government to be credible. In response to That is correct, because otherwise there would always the right hon. Gentleman’s question, it is vital that we be the fear that the Government were funding academic have that kind of evidential basis for the benefit of research, in any area, into pet projects—politically sensible and objective fact-based public policy making convenient projects—rather than the ones that were in future. academically pure. The same argument applies here. Philip Davies: Will the Minister also bear in mind the Mr Lammy: The Minister makes a very good point. common-sense point that the number of machines in a Is he concerned about the prevalence of fixed-odds particular shop cannot hinder problem gambling on the betting terminals, particularly in bookmakers? That is a basis that somebody can only play on one at a time? concern in other parts of the gambling industry. We That is like saying that if a pub has four different beers, also have two bookmakers currently paying their tax and decides to extend that to 10, there will be an overseas. That is a concern, if we are talking about the increase in alcoholism. That would clearly be nonsense, overall quantum available for treating problem gamblers. and I hope that the Minister will not let common sense fly out of the window when he looks at the research. John Penrose: The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point, which I think goes back to a question John Penrose: I am always happy to apply common asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley: are sense. The particular example that my hon. Friend has there any examples of public policy research, funded by chosen is perhaps unfortunate, because with the advent the Responsible Gambling Fund, that have made an of the switch from £2 stakes to £1 stakes, there have impact on any of my decisions, or those of my predecessors? been examples of people playing two machines at once, One issue that I have raised with the RGF is that I am because they like playing with £2 stakes. I take his concerned that there is no significant research into general point, however. establishing the kind of causal links, which I think the My hon. Friend has said, rightly, that he wants the right hon. Gentleman suspects that there may be, between industry to step up to the plate and take a lead in trying particular kinds of gambling and problem gambling. to sort out issues around problem gambling that cause For example, many people believe that fixed-odds betting concern. I share his view, and it is essential that both the terminals are more likely to contribute to problem industry and the other stakeholders do precisely that. gambling than other kinds of gambling. The difficulty The Government will certainly support any of their for someone in my position is that, while that is a efforts to bring this issue under control. 69WH 17 MAY 2011 Public Sector Jobs (Grimsby) 70WH

Public Sector Jobs (Grimsby) Let me turn to specifics and, in particular, to the HMRC tax compliance staff, who are widely praised. In our deliberations on the Public Accounts Committee, 1.30 pm we praised them for their achievement in recouping tax Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I am grateful and for their great service. They have been praised by to be able to raise the issue of the transfer of between 20 HMRC itself. Twenty-nine of them work in Heritage and 30 compliance staff in Her Majesty’s Revenue and house, which is available to them until 2021—I think it Customs and 20 Valuation Office Agency staff out of was built to house Government departments and services, Grimsby, where they are happily living and working. and it is certainly co-owned by Mapeley Estates, of Grimsby is a very good place to live and work, but they glorious memory. are being transferred away, reluctantly in most cases. I I cannot see why there is a rush to leave Heritage raise the issue because the Treasury is responding this house. Why the exodus? The heads of the Valuation week, and the responsibility is HMRC’s. Office Agency and the chief executive of HMRC give The numbers are small, it is true. HMRC states in its different reasons for moving out of Heritage house, impact assessment that they are which will still be available. People from other departments, “less than 1% of those employed within the local authority area. notably the Crown Prosecution Service, are also fleeing. It is therefore reasonable to infer that the local economy is not That is part of the wider problem. The exodus involves dependent on the HMRC presence at this office.” not only HMRC, the Valuation Office Agency and the That is true, but they are simply part of a wider exodus Crown Prosecution Service, but VAT staff and, we now from Grimsby and other smaller centres produced by hear, Jobcentre Plus and Department for Work and the concentration policy, designed to concentrate Pensions staff. All of them are moving out of Grimsby. Government services in larger centres and so to dispose Why the exodus from Heritage house? What is the effect of property and to produce efficiency savings. on Heritage house? In the context of that wider problem, Dame Lesley Those people do not need to leave Grimsby at all. Strathie, the chief executive of HMRC, is the new The HMRC staff could certainly be transferred to Moses—leading her people not into the promised land Imperial house, which also houses Inland Revenue staff. but out of it, because Grimsby is surely the promised Thanks to the reduction in the Revenue staff employed land and the best place for those people to be. She is in Grimsby, the fourth floor is now vacant. HMRC has leading them instead into some traffic-jammed wasteland to hang on to it—the fourth floor cannot be lopped off of a bigger city, where they do not want to be. That is and turned into an entertainment centre, disco or whatever, counterproductive, expensive and wrong. They will all to alleviate the problems of the staff. If the staff have to have to drive for well over an hour, at enormous expense, be transferred from Heritage house, why can they not to a destination where they do not want to work or be. I be transferred to the fourth floor of Imperial house, to apologise to the Minister, because he is dealing not only work with the other tax staff? with the issue of HMRC staff but with the policy of concentration and its impact on Grimsby and other They are not being offered that, however, and nor are small centres. they being offered the opportunity to work from home, The impact is damaging, and Grimsby has a higher which they told me they could do. Instead, the proposal level of unemployment than most of the country, is to transfer them to Hull or to Cromwell house in in common with a lot of other one-industry towns in Lincoln. The chief executive of HMRC told me that the which the industry has declined. Grimsby needs jobs— policy was to public sector jobs: 21% of employment in Grimsby is in “consolidate its teams into fewer sites and place more location-specific the public sector, compared with 9% in a place such as work into larger, more efficient teams in urban centres.” Wokingham in the prosperous south. Any transfer or loss of public sector jobs, therefore, has a disproportionate That will be costly, because both Hull and Lincoln are effect in Grimsby. more than an hour and a quarter’s drive away. If people We have a higher proportion of the work force in are transferred to Hull rather than Lincoln, they will manual jobs in north-east Lincolnshire than in most of have to pay £30 a week in toll charges on the Humber the rest of the country, and fewer people in white collar bridge—an expensive business which, incidentally, was and managerial jobs. According to the figures, 20% not mentioned in the impact survey. of the work force are classified under the categories of If staff who are transferred must travel for more than managers, senior officials and professionals, as opposed an hour—these people will be travelling for well over an to 30% for Great Britain overall. hour and a quarter—their travelling expenses must be It is a great shame that the founders or forefathers of paid for five years and not only for three years. The Grimsby did not take the trouble to invent a Grimsby department’s calculations are made on the basis of building society or a Grimsby insurance company, such three years’ payment of travelling expenses, for 27 staff as the Norwich or the Halifax, which can continue to I think, at a total cost of £492,000. I think it would be a give employment to local people. We have not got that. higher figure than that to transfer those staff to Lincoln: We need more white collar and professional jobs in the probably £600,000 or more, because they have to be employment mix, not only to leaven the lump—I should paid for five years given the distance involved. That is not describe it as that—but to widen employment prospects, deemed by the Treasury to be taxable income. We are providing more diversity and a better choice of careers taking on a major expense for a minimal service, and for young people growing up in Grimsby. Those are the shuffling expenditure from the property portfolio to very jobs being taken away from us, however, by transfers continuous travel expenses. If staff are transferred to based on what I see as a series of wrong decisions—by Cromwell house, they will arrive there knackered. The an act of folly. drive is not pleasant—I do it quite often—and the drive 71WH Public Sector Jobs (Grimsby)17 MAY 2011 Public Sector Jobs (Grimsby) 72WH

[Austin Mitchell] to Grimsby, which is cheaper, instead of driving people out as a result of the policy of concentration in larger to Halton is even worse. I like going to Lincoln, but it centres. is unpleasant driving there, particularly at peak travel time. 1.45 pm I am not sure whether it is HMRC’s intention that The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David compliance staff should arrive at Lincoln after an hour- Gauke): It is a great pleasure to serve under your and-a-half drive exhausted and bad tempered, so that chairmanship again, Dr McCrea. I congratulate the they will be more aggressive with the claims they deal hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) on with and produce an even greater return. I hope that is securing this debate. I am pleased to have the opportunity not the intention, but it will certainly be the effect. The to explain and to discuss the Government’s policy on work done by HMRC staff is not local but non-specific; people and estate issues, and its impact on public sector however, that done by VOA staff is largely local. In the jobs in HMRC and the Valuation Office Agency in recent fracas about retrospective property valuations, Grimsby. VOA did not have enough staff to complete them. They should have been done from 2006 onwards, but there I recognise and appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s passion were not finished until 2010 because of staff shortages for his constituency—perhaps we should all call it the arising from efficiency decisions. Yet it is proposed to promised land—and the fact that he wants to retain as move staff. many local services, jobs and employment opportunities for the area as possible. He set out with great knowledge The problem varies in each department, but the overall and understanding some of the challenges facing Grimsby, transfer of not only HMRC staff but staff in other because the private sector is not as strong as he and I departments is damaging to the employment mix in would like it to be. Grimsby and the recruitment prospects of young The issue before us is that the main department, Grimbarians, and is unnecessary. I am sorry to say that HMRC, and its agency, VOA, like others, have been it will also be damaging to the work, morale and lives of going through a transformation to ensure that they the staff who will be shuttled around willy-nilly, because operate in the most efficient and cost-effective way. they do not want to go. They like living and working in That process has been taking place for some years, and Grimsby, which is understandable; I do, too. Why must further efficiencies are required under the spending they move when it would be cheaper for them to continue review settlement. For HMRC, that also provides for working in Grimsby, it is expensive to move them to reinvestment of more than £900 million to combat tax Lincoln, and there is existing office space in Grimsby? avoidance, evasion and fraud in return for a reduction The policy is short-sighted and wrong. It is yesterday’s in the tax gap of £7 billion a year by 2014-15. That will policy from the mid-noughties, and it is being forced on lead to increased opportunities in enforcement and today’s work force at a time when unemployment is compliance, but by 2015 HMRC overall will be operating higher than when the policy was arrived at. I have been with around 13,000 fewer staff than in 2010. arguing and have had extensive correspondence with For both organisations, having the right mix of people the chief executive of HMRC, who is a courteous and and skills in the right-sized teams and locations is place-worthy lady, and the chief executive of VOA, but important to ensure that they can deliver the services it is like arguing with a speak-your-weight machine. that their customers need. Balancing the need to retain Their replies are about a policy that was forced on them a national network of offices with consistency across when they took over their jobs. The correspondence has operations, while building capability to handle different not been satisfactory, and their letters always end, “I areas of work, is core to maintaining customer service. hope you find this helpful.” Frankly, I do not, because Both HMRC and VOA have been carrying out good they do not respond to my points. The policy is dictated housekeeping of their estates for a number of years to by the need for economy and efficiency savings, but it utilise existing space to the maximum, and that has will work against both because staff will not be more realised significant savings. For example, VOA has reduced efficient after an hour-and-a-half drive to work, and it its estate by 25%, saving in excess of £5 million in will not be economic to pay them £200,000 a year in running costs a year since 2008. HMRC has made travel expenses to do so. cumulative estate savings of £239 million since 2006. The answer is not to take staff from Grimsby, but to The core efficiency agenda is key to deficit reduction, transfer them to Grimsby. It is a good place to live and and managing Government property can contribute to work. Office expenses are low, and rents per square foot that. The Government’s £370 billion estate costs around are much lower than in the big centres where it is £25 billion per annum to run. The highly diverse estate proposed staff should be transferred. Staff like being has substantial scope for efficiency improvement, and there, and do not want to leave. Why pursue at this late the Government are the UK’s largest landowner and stage an expensive policy of concentration when staff largest tenant, so it is important to achieve clarity on who must be transferred could come to Grimsby, where what is expected from property and how it is to be office rents are lower, where staff can live more cheaply achieved. in the real world, and where they prefer to be? The The Government’s property unit leads the property problem with Grimsby is its name—I did not give it its strategy, and is responsible for delivering the targeted name—and it is anything but grim as a place to live. savings, as well improving the building environment and That should be recognised, because people can live promoting economic growth where possible. The decisions there more economically, and have a more satisfactory made by HMRC and VOA working together in a life in a smaller urban centre than in a big city. It is time co-ordinated, cross-departmental way on their estates to reverse the priorities and to bring functions and staff have identified savings to be made, as well as opportunities 73WH Public Sector Jobs (Grimsby)17 MAY 2011 Public Sector Jobs (Grimsby) 74WH for work to remain in Grimsby. In December 2008, as or not the 25 local compliance staff are able to travel to part of HMRC’s earlier restructuring programme, the Lincoln or Hull, and they have been asked to express decision on HMRC’s offices in Grimsby was announced. their favoured options by the end of May. The focus at It was decided to vacate Heritage house and retain present is on supporting HMRC and VOA staff through Imperial house, the larger of the two offices. Heritage that change, while ensuring the continuity of service house is occupied by HMRC under a memorandum of required for customers—the taxpayer or ratepayer—and terms of occupation with the VOA. The VOA now in the case of VOA, delivery partners such as billing wishes to terminate that memorandum, and HMRC authorities. and the VOA will vacate the office by 31 March 2012. HMRC and the VOA are seeking to avoid any job HMRC staff in Heritage house were informed of that losses, and the staff consultation will enable them to decision on 24 March 2011. explore all available options. HMRC staff unable to The office closures will have an immediate impact on relocate to Lincoln or Hull will continue to undertake people in those locations, and I understand that that is a compliance-related work for the foreseeable future, based big concern for the hon. Gentleman. There are around at Imperial house. No one who lives further away than a 200 HMRC staff in Grimsby—15 at Heritage house distance of reasonable daily travel will be forced to and the remainder at Imperial house. As the hon. move. The 20 VOA staff, many of whom live in and Gentleman has said, Imperial house has sufficient space cover properties in the Grimsby area, may be based to accommodate all HMRC staff when Heritage house elsewhere as a result of those decisions. It is not, however, is vacated. The vast majority of staff—167 people—work uncommon for VOA property inspectors to start or end in the VAT directorate, and about 25 people work in the their day from home, if that is more effective and local compliance department. Local compliance work efficient. In addition, the VOA has made provision—subject is being consolidated in Lincoln and Hull where there to business need—for home working, which staff may are established teams. opt for in the preference exercise. The local impacts of the change will be minimal. Austin Mitchell: The Minister has still not said why The policy for both HMRC and the VOA is to avoid Heritage house is being disposed of. It is as if the place compulsory redundancies. They will do everything possible needs fumigating—there is a mass exodus. Staff from to help staff find a suitable role, which may be at the the VOA and HMRC are going, and those from the closest neighbouring offices or elsewhere. The VOA will Crown Prosecution Service have fled to Hull. The building continue to carry out property valuations and assessments was designed to provide office accommodation for public locally, and many local staff will continue to carry out administration staff. It is beautifully situated; there is that work for Grimsby, so that local knowledge of the parking; and there is a wonderful fish and chip shop area and conditions will not be affected. The specific nearby. Why the exodus from Heritage house? Why do issue of ports will require specialist expertise, but it the Government want to get rid of it? should not be disrupted by the changes.

Mr Gauke: The hon. Gentleman has described a Decisions to inspect specific properties or areas are somewhat idyllic scene for Heritage house, and the not necessarily determined by the office location; proximity of an excellent fish and chip shop cannot be understanding the area and having the right supporting entirely ignored. Nevertheless, HMRC has to find savings information is key. In all cases, the decision to inspect a in its estate and, as the hon. Gentleman has pointed property or locality is made after other avenues have out, Imperial house has the capacity to take in additional been exhausted and when the information required can staff. HMRC needs to find savings to be more efficient be gleaned only by a visit. and to ensure that it is as effective as possible at collecting The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of increased taxes. Together with the VOA, it has taken the view that travel costs as a consequence of the changes. Travel Heritage house is surplus to requirements. costs may increase, but HMRC and the VOA believe The long-term strategy for local compliance is to that those increases will be significantly outweighed by consolidate teams in fewer sites and place non-specific savings on accommodation. The hon. Gentleman pointed work in larger teams in urban centres. The local compliance out that costs are greater in Hull and Lincoln, but as far department carries out a risk assessment of location as the VOA is concerned, accommodation in those specific work, and it assessed that there is no need for a places is considerably cheaper than it is in Grimsby. The longer-term compliance presence in Grimsby. It has issue affects many areas, and I thank the hon. Gentleman stretching targets for performance improvement and for raising it today and defending the interests of his must deliver those with a reduced work force. The aim is constituents with such passion. Nevertheless, HMRC to achieve that by setting up co-located teams that will and the VOA must make a contribution to clearing the provide greater opportunity to share skills and experience. fiscal deficit. That has been happening for some years, and as a member of the Public Accounts Committee, the hon. Austin Mitchell: This is the second survey that staff Gentleman will be aware of recent improvements in the have received—the first must have been inconclusive. compliance yield obtained by HMRC. This time HMRC staff are not signing the option There are similar issues for the 20 VOA staff located forms, because they feel that there are no alternative in Heritage house. The VOA is working towards having jobs in the tax system in north-east Lincolnshire or in fewer locations nationally, each with a critical mass of other areas. The Minister has not answered the question staff to enable the sharing of knowledge and skills and about why jobs should not be transferred to Grimsby. It improve efficiency. Discussions are taking place between would be a cheaper centre from which to carry out VOA staff and their managers before a formal preference non-locational work. If the work can be done from exercise in June. The consideration for HMRC is whether anywhere, why not Grimsby? 75WH Public Sector Jobs (Grimsby)17 MAY 2011 Public Sector Jobs (Grimsby) 76WH

Mr Gauke: As I understand it, the view taken by the VOA take a businesslike approach to the issue and HMRC and the VOA is that the options presented by ensure that assets are distributed in the most effective Hull and Lincoln were more financially persuasive. and efficient manner possible. Accommodation in Lincoln and Hull for the VOA is Question put and agreed to. considerably cheaper than in Grimsby, and decisions were taken for those reasons and on the basis of good estate management. I know that will disappoint the 1.59 pm hon. Gentleman, but it is important that HMRC and Sitting adjourned. 7WS Written Ministerial Statements17 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 8WS

efficiency standard as based on the work of the Zero Written Ministerial Carbon Hub. This will ensure that homes are warmer, and cheaper and easier to heat. Statements We also said we would look again at the right level for carbon reductions on the site of the home itself—“carbon Tuesday 17 May 2011 compliance”. The Zero Carbon Hub has led a large-scale review of evidence, working with industry, green groups and other experts. The Government have considered TREASURY with care the findings from this work, and we intend to use the Hub’s recommendations on where to set the Debt Management Office maximum levels of on site carbon dioxide emissions as a starting point for consultation as part of future revisions The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine to the building regulations. Greening): The United Kingdom Debt Management We are also keen to build on industry’s commitment Office (DMO) has today published its business plan for to move to an approach based on real world carbon the year 2011-12. Copies have been deposited in the savings, rather than modelled reductions in emissions. Libraries of both Houses and are available on the DMO’s This is a bold step forward, and will strengthen focus on website, www.dmo.gov.uk. innovation delivering new and better technologies and construction methods. We will work with industry to ensure both that this commitment becomes a reality, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT and that effective assurance is put in place to guarantee the zero-carbon standard and that real world carbon Building and the Environment savings are achieved. The end result will be better homes and better protection for the environment. The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant The Hub’s report “Carbon Compliance: Setting An Shapps): The growth review reaffirmed our commitment Appropriate Limit For Zero Carbon New Homes— to zero carbon. We need to deliver carbon savings in Findings and Recommendations, February 2011”includes order to meet the carbon budgets to which we are a number of detailed recommendations on technical committed, and this means that the carbon footprint of matters which we will consider as part of the further work new homes cannot be allowed to add to our overall on the building regulations. It can be found at: http:// carbon reduction targets. But this needs to be done in www.zerocarbonhub.org/definition.aspx?page=8. ways which are cost-effective and which protect the viability of house building. This statement sets out Where house builders can deliver more ambitious more details of our policy. carbon reductions on the site of the home than these minimum requirements, they will have the option to do A fundamental principle of environmental regulation so. Where it is not possible for house builders to do this is that the “polluter pays”. Previous approaches to cost effectively, we will ensure that a mechanism is zero-carbon homes policy have sought to hold house available that allows house builders to meet their builders responsible for abating the carbon emissions commitments at a cost no higher than the Government’s from household appliances. But occupants’ use of long-term value of carbon. This ensures that the offsite appliances, such as computers or televisions, is not requirement of the policy will be delivered cost effectively. influenced by the design or structure of their home and This will give industry a benchmark against which to is therefore beyond the control of the house builder. target innovation in carbon reduction technologies which Asking house builders to put in place measures to will drive down costs over time. reduce the emissions from appliances is unfair; we have decided therefore that the regulatory threshold for zero- We intend to work with industry on options for a carbon should be set to cover only those emissions mechanism to deliver these offsite measures, which will: which are within the scope of the building regulations, be made available to all developers operating in England; such as those from heating, ventilation, hot water, fixed be cost effective by ensuring offsite measures are no higher lighting and building services. than the Governments’ long-term value of carbon; and There are already a number of existing policies which ensure that any funds raised will be dedicated to carbon deal with emissions from appliances, including the EU abatement. emissions trading scheme (which caps emissions from electricity generation) and product energy efficiency We will also review the measures which can be supported measures. Moreover, if house builders, working with under these approaches and will consult further with local planning authorities, still wish to go further in industry, local government and other partners on these. abating emissions from appliances then they are of Taken together, these proposals deliver a realistic and course free to do so. In order to prevent excessive effective approach to zero-carbon, on a par with the burdens on industry and protect the viability of most ambitious international efforts to cut domestic development, the Government will work with local carbon and build better, more sustainable homes, whilst authorities and developers to ensure that the cumulative at a greatly reduced cost to industry. However, we are impact of regulation and other costs can be assessed, keen to look at innovative ways for house builders to without adding complex and unwieldy bureaucracy to meet the additional costs associated with building zero- plans. carbon homes. In particular, we are ready to explore As part of meeting the overall requirement, zero-carbon with industry the potential of a green deal type financing homes must be energy efficient homes. We have already approach for new homes, as a way of offsetting some made clear our intention to introduce the fabric energy of the up front costs of zero-carbon. We are aware that 9WS Written Ministerial Statements17 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS industry is already forming its thinking on how this can troubled Kabul bank was taken over by the Government work, and we will continue to work with partners on and split into two. The Special Court, established to how best to take this forward. investigate allegations of malpractice in the autumn parliamentary elections, completed its provincial recounts of the disputed parliamentary election results. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS As the Prime Minister stated on 3 May, the death of al-Qaeda founder and leader Osama bin Laden, killed by US ground forces in Pakistan on 2 May, presents a Agriculture and Fisheries Council new opportunity for Afghanistan and Pakistan to work together to achieve stability on both sides of the border. We should take this opportunity to send a clear message The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and to the Taliban: now is the time to separate themselves Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): My noble Friend from al-Qaeda and participate in a peaceful political Lord Henley will represent the United Kingdom at the process. Agriculture and Fisheries Council in Brussels on 17 May. I am placing the report in the Library of the House. There is only one main agenda item: a discussion on It will also be published on the Foreign and Commonwealth the EU being party to a legally binding agreement on Office website (www.fco.gov.uk) and the HMG UK and European forests. Afghanistan website (http://afghanistan.hmg.gov.uk/). There are currently eight items of any other business: Swedish delegation request in relation to the report on the protection of animals during transport. JUSTICE Codex alimentarius negotiations—progress and prospects report. Conference on sustainable food consumption and production— Face to Face Services (Civil and Family Court Offices) report back from the presidency. A report from the pigmeat advisory group. A request from Poland on intervention price for cereals. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): Following the creation on A request from Poland on sugar production quota. 1 April of Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service G20 agriculture ministerial meeting in June—an update on (HMCTS), I have agreed that the agency should explore the plans for this meeting. the potential to modernise the way in which face to face A report from Lithuania on the international conference it services in the civil and family courts are provided hosted on animal welfare in the Baltic. through its public counters. This will allow a clearer focus of resources on those services which require face to face service and those which should be conducted FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE through alternative means such as online or via the telephone. Afghanistan: Monthly Progress Report April 2011 In line with many other parts of Government business technology has revolutionised the way in which people conduct business with the courts. 70 % of money claims are now submitted online. HMCTS is now exploring The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth potential to further improve the services it offers to Affairs (Mr William Hague): I wish to inform the House courts users by providing for centralised administration that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together centres. We now expect public services to modernise with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for and provide services outside normal court opening hours. International Development, is today publishing the sixth There must, of course, always be mechanisms to deal progress report on developments in Afghanistan. with urgent business and queries, HMCTS will explore The report focuses on key developments during the the extent to which court users needs can be met with a month of April. system of appointments. For other work, court users April saw a series of security incidents, notably the will be directed towards using the appropriate online attack on the UN compound in Mazar-e-Sharif and the channel and call centres through the use of clear sign- escape of about 500 prisoners from the Sarposa jail in posting in court, within information leaflets and on the Kandahar. internet. Insurgent activity in April did not increase significantly The modernisation of current arrangements will not compared with that seen in March. Within Helmand deny access to services nor create an additional burden levels of such activity remained particularly low compared for the public and is expected to improve overall efficiency to previous periods. However seasonal trends associated and service standards. The proposals do not affect with the completion of the poppy harvest, the large access to court hearings or the future of particular number of weapons caches still being found and the court buildings. Taliban’s declared intention to begin their spring offensive A document called the “Framework for the Provision all suggest that activity will increase over the coming of Front Office Services in Civil Courts” was published months. in September 2008 by what was then Her Majesty’s The strength of the Afghan National Security Forces Court Service. This document allowed some flexibility (ANSF) has grown again in April and this, combined locally to adapt the delivery of face to face services in with falling attrition rates, will help to ensure that the the civil courts. Local decisions on modernisation will ANSF are increasingly able to meet this threat. The be undertaken within that framework including local 11WS Written Ministerial Statements17 MAY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS consultation where necessary. However should the need establish a Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission, arise the framework will be revised and a copy will be and to clarify accountabilities for social reform under placed in the Library of the House. this coalition Government, this statement confirms: In reading in legislation Minister of the Crown as relates to Social Mobility refers to the Deputy Prime Minister or such WORK AND PENSIONS other Minister as is appointed; and In reading in legislation Minister of the Crown as relates to Child Poverty refers to the Secretary of State for Work and Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission Pensions. This reflects the coalition Government’s social reforms The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain to enable Social Mobility and Social Justice and our Duncan Smith): Following amendment to the Welfare collective commitment to tackle the causes of immobility, Reform Bill tabled in the Committee of the House to inequality and poverty.

109W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 110W

Will Form (Form 106). Complete MOD Will Forms can Written Answers to be stored at the Wills Library in Glasgow at no cost to the individual. Questions Armed Forces: Pensions

Tuesday 17 May 2011 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the number of armed forces personnel and their dependants who DEFENCE will be affected as a result of changes to public sector pensions uprating; and if he will make a statement. Armed Forces: Casualties [55655]

Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan [holding answer 16 May 2011]: I refer Defence what advice his Department provides for the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 31 January service personnel in respect of the preparations of their 2011, Official Report, column 570, to the hon. Member wills prior to operational duties overseas. [55908] for Delyn (Mr Hanson).

Mr Robathan: At least three months prior to a Armed Forces: Recruitment deployment all service personnel are briefed by their Chain of Command on the benefits of having a will, as Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for well as a Lasting Power of Attorney. This powerful legal Defence how many people aged under 21 in each year document gives another person or persons the power to group were recruited to each of the armed services in make decisions with regard to service person’s financial each month since the date of the Strategic Defence and affairs and/or their health and personal welfare. These Security Review; and for how long on average the can be drawn up privately, in advance of a deployment, people in each group have signed up to serve. [55050] and can be revoked at any time. Service personnel are advised that wills can be drawn Mr Robathan: The information requested is provided up privately or by use of a Ministry of Defence (MOD) in the following table.

2010 2011 Service and age group October November December January February March April

Naval Service 16 473 5213 17 17 27 1 16 5 7 3 18 28 53 9 18 4 7 3 19 20 43 8 23 9 6 0 20 19 42 11 23 6 2 3

Army 16 116 71 0 175 0 85 58 17 115 33 0 139 35 94 91 18 136 112 0 102 95 93 86 19 123 99 0 90 83 98 85 20 110 97 0 85 77 85 81

RAF 16 01 00000 17 I6 35153 18 14 3 0 7 7 13 11 19 11 10 0 14 6 13 14 20 14 12 0 17 3 9 7

While in all three services personnel sign up to a 12 years and Officers are given three years service from specific engagement or commission, they are permitted the date of commissioning with the option to extend to resign from their service before the end of this period once they receive a positive annual report. In the RAF, provided they have completed a minimum return of Airmen sign for an engagement of nine years and RAF service. In the Naval Service the initial commitment for officers sign a permanent commission of 18 years reckonable Royal Navy Ratings is 18 years, Royal Marine Other service or until they reach the age of 40. The commitments Ranks is four years and Royal Navy Officers is 12 years. above are general and may differ depending upon which usbIn the Army Other Ranks enter an engagement of trade or specialty is joined. 111W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 112W

Chinook Helicopters producing an integrated weapon system and not just the purchase cost of the missile. The same is also true of Dual Mode Seeker Brimstone. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Enhanced Paveway II and Paveway IV guided bombs have also Defence when he expects the (a) first and (b) last been released over Libya, but I am withholding their current gross Chinook HC.6 helicopter to be delivered into service. book values as this information is commercially sensitive and its [55523] disclosure would prejudice the commercial interests of the contractor. Finally, the Ministry of Defence now takes a portfolio approach Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence is currently in to procuring new Complex Weapons. This approach was launched discussion with Boeing in preparation for the main in April 2010 and will secure significant efficiencies across the investment decision point for the 12 new and two breadth of the Complex Weapons portfolio over the next 10 years replacement Chinooks announced as part of the Strategic and beyond, and is designed to meet the UK’s military requirements Defence and Security Review. and safeguard our sovereign capability. However, the main investment decision has not yet been I am placing a copy of this letter in the library of the House. made and the delivery schedule will not be set until the Middle East: Armed Conflict contract is signed. We will announce any significant procurement decisions to Parliament in the usual way. Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Responsibilities Defence what recent assessment he has made of the security situation in the middle east. [55503] Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence whether his Department plans to cease to fund Mr Robathan [holding answer 16 May 2011]: I refer any of its functions over the period of the the hon. Member to the answer given by the Minister for the Armed Forces, my hon. Friend the hon. Member comprehensive spending review. [55190] for North Devon (Nick Harvey), on 16 May 2011, Official Report Dr Fox: The Strategic Defence and Security Review , column 9, to the hon. Member for (SDSR) set out the functions and capabilities that will Central Devon (Mel Stride). be needed to meet future challenges and achieve success Military Aircraft: Costs on operations in line with the National Security Strategy while also dealing with the deficit in the Defence budget. Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for The spending review set out the resources allocated to Defence what the cost per hour of using the (a) Defence to implement the SDSR. This resulted in reductions Harrier, (b) GR4 Tornado and (c) Apache in close air in a combination of older or non-essential capabilities, support operations was in the last 12 months for which such as the Harrier GR9, Nimrod MRA4 and certain figures are available. [55196] frigates, to focus resources on the highest priority capabilities and functions core to the adaptable force posture set Peter Luff [holding answer 12 May 2011]: I refer the out in the SDSR. right hon. Member to the answer the Minister for the Libya: Armed Conflict Armed Forces, my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey) gave on 26 April 2011, Official Report, column 75W. Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the unit cost of Nuclear Power Stations: Security aUK(a) air to surface missile, (b) air to air missile, (c) (d) ship to surface missile and ship to air missile of David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for the type deployed by UK forces in Libya. [53340] Defence what assessment has been made of capability of terrorist organisations to mount an attack on a UK Peter Luff: I will write to the hon. Member and place nuclear power plant; and what arrangements are in a copy of my letter in the Library of the House, but I place to prevent such an attack. [56152] refer him to the answer I gave on 4 April 2011, Official Report , column 569W, to the hon. Member for Charles Hendry: I have been asked to reply. Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop) in respect of Storm Shadow. The level of threat posed from a terrorist attack to UK civil nuclear sites is taken very seriously and is Substantive answer from Peter Luff to Gordon Banks: regularly assessed by relevant Government organisations, UK forces have not fired air-to-air or surface-to-air missiles as including the industry’s security regulator, the Office part of Operation ELLAMY. The gross book values of each of for Nuclear Regulation. the air-to-surface missiles fired by our forces from the start of recent operations over Libya up to 24 April 2011 are: Storm While it is not Government policy to comment on the Shadow £790,000 and Dual Mode Seeker (DMS) Brimstone detail of operational security matters at individual civil £175,000. Our stock of Brimstone was procured from 2004 as nuclear sites, security arrangements are kept under constant single mode missiles and subsequently enhanced to dual mode, review as part of a continuous process to ensure that under a separate contract, from 2008. Equivalent values for each existing arrangements are robust and effective. of the Tomahawk Land Attack Missile (TLAM) Block III and TLAM Block IV surface-to-surface missiles fired over the same Nuclear Submarines period are £1,100,000 and £870,000 respectively. All of the figures are inclusive of VAT. In addition, as I said in the answer I gave on 4 April 2011, Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 569W to the hon. Member for Middlesbrough Defence what proposals he has made to his French South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop), the value of Storm counterpart on the future joint development of ship Shadow missiles, contracted for in 1997, includes the cost of submersible ballistic nuclear fleets. [55423] 113W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 114W

Peter Luff: We have, with our French colleagues, Departmental Work Experience identified a number of potential areas for cooperation around submarine enterprise management and some specific equipments and technologies. Detailed proposals Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for will be put to national authorities for consideration and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what advice her agreement, taking account of extant international Department provides to those wishing to (a) work as agreements and obligations. an intern, (b) undertake a work experience placement and (c) work as a volunteer in her Department. USA: Military Bases [52818]

Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: All interns that join the Department Defence whether his Department has provided funding now need to come via the Cabinet Office Summer for any development on US military bases in Great Internship Schemes. Britain in the last five years. [55528] Advice to those wishing to undertake either interim, work experience or volunteer work directs them, therefore Mr Robathan: The US authorities are responsible for towards the Cabinet Office Whitehall Internship bearing the cost of any development, unless that programmes. development is a requirement of UK legislation or Ministry of Defence (MOD) policy and there is no equivalent United States legal or policy requirement, in Flood Control which case the costs fall to the UK MOD. In the last five years the MOD has provided some Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for £1.4 million in funding for such development. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what estimate she has made of the number of (a) homes, (b) business premises and (c) individuals resident in areas which would have been protected by flood ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS defence schemes which have now been (i) cancelled and (ii) postponed; [55345] Departmental Legal Opinion (2) what flood defence schemes in each (a) constituency and (b) local authority area have been (i) Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for cancelled and (ii) postponed as a result of reductions in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what spending on flood defence. [55346] information her Department holds on the amount received in fines paid as a result of legal action arising from the work by her Department’s legal team in each Richard Benyon: No flood defence schemes have been of the last five years. [55460] cancelled and any scheme not progressing this year will be subject to reforms to the way funding is allocated to Richard Benyon [holding answer 13 May 2011]: The flood and coastal defence projects. We recently consulted amount of fines paid as a result of legal action arising on these reforms and I will make an announcement in from the work by the Department’s legal team in each due course. of the last four years is as follows: We still expect to be able to deliver better protection to at least 145,000 households by March 2015. £

2007-08 116,645 Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 28,300 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment 2009-10 49,055 her Department has made of the effects of its planned 2010-11 72,825 reductions in flood defence spending on (a) insurance premium costs, (b) insurance excess payments for The information for 2006-07 is not readily available home and business owners and (c) the civil engineering and the cost to obtain the information would be supply chain. [55347] disproportionate. Richard Benyon: The working groups that were Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for established after last year’s flood summit are establishing Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment a roadmap beyond 2013, when the current Statement of she has made of the potential effects of the closure of Principles ends. her Department’s legal team on the Department’s work on (a) pollution control, (b) animal welfare, (c) The Environment Agency is working with the civil forestry, (d) nature conservation and (e) animal engineering supply chain to provide greater certainty over future work and opportunities for greater efficiencies. disease emergencies. [55498] It is also reviewing its future procurement strategy with Richard Benyon [holding answer 13 May 2011]: The the Major Projects Authority. Department has no plans to close its legal team, but it is We recently consulted on reforms to the way in which currently considering options for its future structure. capital funding is allocated to flood and coastal erosion No detrimental effect on any of the work areas listed is risk management projects, to encourage total investment anticipated as a result of those proposals, should they to increase beyond levels that are affordable to central go ahead. Government alone. 115W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 116W

Floods: House Insurance progress she has made in ensuring the continued provision of flood insurance for properties at Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for significant risk of flooding when the Statement of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy Principles agreement expires in 2013. [55172] is on provision of flooding cover as a standard element of property insurance following the end of the Richard Benyon: DEFRA hosted a Flood summit in Statement of Principles. [55138] September 2010 to discuss flood risk management and the challenges involved in flood insurance. Three working Richard Benyon: DEFRA is working closely with groups are now continuing the dialogue on flood insurance HM Treasury and the insurance industry to ensure that and risk reduction and putting in place a road map insurance remains widely available in England after the beyond 2013, when the current Statement of Principles Statement of Principles ends. Three working groups, ends. The working groups reported on progress, in including representatives from the Government, the March 2011 in an interim report that will be published Environment Agency, the insurance industry and other soon. organisations, were established after last year’s Flood Summit. One of these groups is looking at a range of Inland Waterways potential flood insurance models that will be outlined in an interim report to be published soon. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has spent on maintaining waterways in the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent last five years. [55326] discussions her Department has had with (a) the Association of British Insurers, (b) the British Richard Benyon: DEFRA provides grant in aid funding Insurance Brokers Association and (c) insurers on to its two main navigation authorities for the maintenance levels of flooding insurance premium costs for of inland waterways in England and Wales. Funding for property owners who have been affected by flooding. the last five years is as follows: [55139] Richard Benyon: DEFRA is working closely with the £ million Association of British Insurers, the British Insurance 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Brokers Association and individual insurers through British Waterways1 55.5 61.6 57.4 51.3 41.5 the three working groups that were established after last Environment 13.3 14 13 11.5 6.25 year’s Flood summit. Agency: Navigation Environment 102 128 131 162 152 There is general agreement in these discussions that Agency: Flood risk insurance policies should reflect flood risk, including management resilience and damage-limitation efforts by property 1 Excludes payments made to BW in respect of its national loan fund owners. payments DEFRA also provides grant in aid funding to the Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Broads Authority for pursuing their statutory purposes. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Additional funding has been included in the national discussions her Department has had with the park grant allocation for the Broads Authority to enable Association of British Insurers on flood insurance progress to be made in implementing its sediment from 2013. [55140] management strategy. The funding in 2006-07, 2007-08 Richard Benyon: DEFRA is working closely with the and 2008-09 was £500,000 per annum. In 2009-10 and Association of British Insurers (ABI) to put in place a 2010-11, this funding was reduced to £400,000 per roadmap beyond 2013, when the current Statement of annum. The total over the five-year period is therefore Principles ends. The ABI is an active member of the £2.3 million. three working groups that were established after last Any additional expenditure incurred by the authority year’s Flood summit, which are taking forward the on maintaining the waterways has been funded by tolls. dialogue on flood insurance and risk reduction. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate discussions she has had on the maintenance of British her Department had made of the number of domestic waterways in the last five years. [55327] properties in England at significant risk of flooding which do not have flood insurance. [55171] Richard Benyon: DEFRA routinely undertakes discussions with British Waterways (BW) on the Richard Benyon: No estimate has been made of the maintenance of its waterways for navigation at quarterly number of properties at significant risk of flooding that shareholder meetings, the most recent of which took do not have flood insurance cover. Insurers’ decisions place in February 2011. The maintenance of BW’s about providing cover in flood risk areas are guided by waterways is also considered through the process of the Statement of Principles and are commercially agreeing its annual corporate plan. confidential. In addition, some householders may not Discussions with the Environment Agency on the wish to obtain flood insurance cover. maintenance of its waterways for navigation and for Mr Reed: To ask the Secretary of State for flood risk management also take place as part of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the corporate planning process and strategic reviews. answer of 1 November 2010, Official Report, Discussions also take place with the Broads Authority columns 604-5, on flood control: finance, what on its priorities at regular meetings. 117W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 118W

Official Visits understand the impact of reward schemes, in order to help development of future policy. In the Waste Review, Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State we are looking at how to share lessons from innovative for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what visits ways of rewarding recycling and reuse. We will also be she has undertaken in an official capacity since developing a Waste Prevention Programme for England, 1 January 2011. [55287] as required by the revised waste framework directive. Richard Benyon [holding answer 16 May 2011]: Since Seas and Oceans: Environment Protection 1 January 2011 the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the right hon. Member for Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), has visited the Oxford Farming Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will take Conference, a meeting of international environment steps to protect seascapes from adverse effects arising and agriculture Ministers at Berlin Green Week, the from human activities in the marine environment. NFU Annual Conference in Birmingham, Derby to [55587] attend the regional cabinet, the Lake District National Park and Newton Rigg to launch the Uplands Policy Richard Benyon [holding answer 16 May 2011]: The Review, Brussels to attend Environment Council, Budapest Marine Policy Statement (MSP) provides the framework to attend Informal Environment Council, the sustainable for the development of marine plans and for decision development aspects at the Olympic Site in London, making, and its adoption in March 2011 was the first Brazil for dialogues with her ministerial counterparts stage in rolling out the statutory marine planning systems and the construction site for the redevelopment of across UK marine area. Blackfriars station. The MSP defines seascapes as ‘landscapes with views of coasts or seas, and coasts with Recycling: Incentives adjacent marine environment with cultural, historical and archaeological links with each other’. Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for It requires that marine plan authorities take into account Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) if she will the character, quality and how highly valued the seascape assess the effects on waste minimisation of introducing is when considering the impact of activities or development cash incentives for recycling; [52957] in the marine environment. (2) if she will assess the potential effects of The Marine Management Organisation, have been introducing recycling incentive schemes such as that in delegated the responsibility for preparing marine plans Windsor and Maidenhead on meeting the in England, and have begun developing the first two Government’s obligations under the revised waste plans in the east inshore and offshore areas. framework directive. [52958] Thames Estuary Richard Benyon: The Government welcome the efforts of all councils who encourage people to do the right Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for thing with their waste, including reducing the amount Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her of waste produced and recycling more. We believe that Department and its agencies have spent on managing rewarding or recognising people for what they do is a the Thames estuary in each of the last five years. good way to encourage behaviour change; the Secretary [55245] of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the right hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman) and the Richard Benyon: I assume my hon. Friend is referring Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, to costs associated with protecting the Thames estuary the right hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar from flooding. The Environment Agency maintains the (Mr Pickles), commended the Recyclebank model at Thames tidal defences along the north and south banks Windsor and Maidenhead last year. Schemes like this of the Thames estuary. This is from Teddington to the can help us to meet our revised waste framework directive Isle of Grain and Southend-on-Sea. Please see the obligations to reuse or recycle 50% of waste from following breakdown of capital and revenue costs by households by 2020. It will of course be important to year and geographical area:

Financial year 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Thames tidal defences (including the Thames barrier) from 16,834,028.00 19,144,856.00 18,243,716.00 26,363,211.71 22,358,106.00 Teddington to Dartford barrier Thames tidal defences from Dartford barrier to Southend- 3,820,200.00 995,900.00 1,909,700.00 2,377,000.00 2,165,400.00 on-Sea (including work at Tilbury and Canvey Island) Thames tidal defences between Dartford Creek barrier and 497,100.00 413,100.00 820,100.00 4,040,100.00 3,274,100.00 Grain Total 21,151,328.00 20,553,856.00 20,973,516.00 32,780,311.00 27,797,606.00

Voluntary Work Richard Benyon: As part of usual departmental business, all Ministers engage with social enterprise Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for organisations and charities and undertake activities Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether (a) she which support the big society initiative. and (b) Ministers in her Department are participating in volunteering activities as part of her Department’s involvement in the big society initiative. [42667] 119W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 120W

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION part of this, arrangements will be made to ensure the Members: Offices £1 million of support to be provided by the North West Development Agency to the cost of staging the 2013 Helen Jones: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Rugby League World cup is paid in full. Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Telecommunications: Hearing Impairment Commons Commission, when the decision was taken that adjustments or equipment for the offices of hon. Members recommended by medical professionals Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for would not be met from the budget of the House Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what definition Service; who took this decision; and what consultation his Department uses of functional equivalence in was carried out prior to taking the decision. [55786] relation to relay services for deaf people. [55303] John Thurso: The note ‘Accommodation standards Mr Vaizey: The Department does not look to determine for Members and their staff located at Westminster’, “functional equivalence” in relation to relay services for endorsed by the Administration Committee on 8 May deaf people. The requirement for equivalence in access 2007, sets out the accommodation and equipment provision to electronic communications is a broad concept and available to Members from the Department of Facilities. not tied to any particular service. It specifically envisages meeting special medical requirements Further, determination of equivalence in relation to for desks and chairs but not for other items. relay matters for deaf people will be a matter for the When the standards were written the House had regulator, Ofcom, under new provisions of the revised responsibility for disability assistance for Members and EU Electronic Communication Framework. These revisions individual aids could be claimed under the House’s require member states to ensure that access to, and expenses scheme either under general office expenses or affordability of, electronic communications services for (potentially) under the disability provision. Responsibility disabled end-users is equivalent to the level enjoyed by for administering Members allowances has been transferred other end-users. Implementation of the revised Framework to IPSA. Provision of funding for individual aids falls needs to be completed by 25 May 2011. within the scope of this responsibility. Implementation of new Article 23a in the USD will I understand that officials have written to the hon. enable Ofcom to specify, where appropriate, requirements Member with further information on this issue. to ensure that disabled end-users: (a) have access to electronic communications services equivalent to that enjoyed by the majority of end-users; and CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT (b) benefit from the choice of undertakings and services available to the majority of end-users. Departmental Responsibilities In that respect, Ofcom is currently undertaking a Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for review of relay service provision, the objective of which Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether his is to assess whether current arrangements for the provision Department plans to cease to fund any of its functions of relay services are adequate in delivering equivalence over the period of the comprehensive spending review. to voice telephony for hearing and speech impaired [55191] end-users (including BSL users). Ofcom expect to publish a consultation document within the next few weeks and John Penrose: The Department for Culture, Media a research report which helps inform the review was and Sport continues to promote and support its core published on 4 February and can be read at: functions and values, as confirmed in our business plan, http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/market-data-research/ and will reduce its administrative costs by 50% over the telecoms-research/ofcom-relay-services/ spending review period. The Department is also in the However, any decision on relay services will have to process of streamlining its arm’s length bodies to facilitate be made following a process of review, consultation, continued delivery of quality culture, media and sport cost benefit analysis and a proportionality test. in this country whilst at the same time making efficiency In addition, Ofcom contributed to the consultation savings. The Secretary of State’s press release of the and report published by the Body of European Regulators 14 October 2010 provides further details and can be (BEREC) in February 2011 on “Electronic communications found at the following link: services: Ensuring equivalence in access and choice for http://www.culture.gov.uk/news/media_releases/7485.aspx disabled end-users” which helps further clarify the After completion of the Olympic and Paralympic Games distinction between functional equivalence and equivalence in October 2012, the Department will continue to focus of experience. on delivery of the Olympic legacy. Rugby: World Cup Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he has Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for made an assessment of (a) the possible conversion Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport when he expects speed and (b) functional equivalence of (i) text relay to announce details of the financing for the Rugby services, (ii) video relay services and (iii) standard League World Cup; and if he will make a statement. speech. [55304] [56000] Mr Vaizey: The Department has not undertaken any Hugh Robertson: I am in discussions with the Rugby assessment of the possible conversation speeds of, or Football League as to how Government can support a functional equivalence of, text relay services, video relay successful event of which the country can be proud. As services and standard speech. 121W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 122W

Ofcom is currently undertaking a review of relay are also required to have a minimum of three years services. The review’s objective is to assess whether the post-qualifying experience in social work with children current arrangements for the provision of relay services and families at risk. are adequate in delivering equivalence to voice telephony for hearing- and speech-impaired end-users and, if they Confederation of British Industry are not, to consider proportionate solutions. This involves looking at, among other things, the existing text relay Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for service and additional relay services including video Education how many meetings he has had with relay and captioned telephony. representatives of the Confederation of British In June 2009 Ofcom published a report commissioned Industry to discuss education and skills policy since his from independent consultants which gave the following appointment. [55996] approximate conversation speeds: Tim Loughton: The Secretary of State for Education, Words per minute my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), has not had any meetings with Normal conversation c. 170 representatives of the Confederation of British Industry Text relay c. 30 since his appointment but is meeting John Cridland, Captioned telephony c. 150 CBI Director General, in early June. Video relay c. 150 Departmental Data Protection

EDUCATION Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many contracts his Department holds Adoption which allow contractors to store personal data of UK citizens overseas; to which contracts this applies; in Mr Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for which countries the data for each such contract is held; Education what steps he plans to take to encourage and how many people have their data stored overseas adoption. [55514] under each such contract. [55738]

Tim Loughton: This Government expect the adoption Tim Loughton: This information could be provided system to work effectively for all looked-after children only at disproportionate cost. who would benefit from this permanence option and all local authorities to perform at the level of the best. I Departmental Legal Costs believe that adoption has lost some momentum in recent years. That is why I have started a programme of adoption reform. I have already published revised statutory Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for adoption guidance, written to directors of children’s Education how much his Department and its services and lead members setting out my expectations predecessors paid in (a) damages, (b) claimant costs and set up the Ministerial Advisory Group on Adoption and (c) defendant costs in respect of all civil claims to steer the overall programme. At its next meeting, the brought against it in which the claimant was successful group will discuss adoption breakdown and how to or the Department settled in each of the last three help ensure that adoptive families are appropriately years. [54894] supported. Tim Loughton: The Department for Education has I recently published an adoption data pack to support concluded that the costs involved in retrieving the local authorities in delivering improved adoption outcomes information required to respond to this PQ will greatly and to help them compare their outcomes with those exceed the disproportionate costs threshold which other local authorities. The Department is also funding governs PQs. two important voluntary sector projects to help improve adoption practices and supporting the British Association Departmental Mobile Phones for Adoption and Fostering in promoting adoption through national adoption week. Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government’s review of the family justice system Education what the name is of each contractor or and the final report of Professor Munro’s review of supplier of (a) mobile telephone and (b) mobile data child protection, published on 10 May, will lead to services to his Department. [56058] wider system improvements that will benefit those children in need of adoption. Tim Loughton: The Department currently receives CAFCASS: Qualifications (a) mobile telephone and (b) mobile data services from one supplier and the supplier is Vodafone Ltd. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what level of qualification the Children and Departmental Travel Family Court Advisory and Support Service requires for those staff it employs to assess cases. [55976] Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many first class rail journeys were Tim Loughton: CAFCASS practitioners are required undertaken by staff in his Department between April to have a Diploma in Social Work, or an equivalent 2010 and April 2011; and what the total cost was of recognised by the General Social Care Council. They such journeys. [53166] 123W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 124W

Tim Loughton: Between 1 April 2010 and 31 March Schools: Sports 2011 staff within the Department for Education made 2,094 first class rail journeys costing £265,028.46. However, Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for 70.6% (1,479) of the recorded first class rail journeys Education by what date he expects to announce were made between 1 April and 30 June 2010. The allocation of funding for the school sports partnership recorded number of first class rail journeys between for Crawley constituency. [55165] 1 January 2011 and 31 March 2011 was 110 (5.2%). First class rail costs have fallen by almost 90% in Tim Loughton: The Secretary of State for Education, 2010-11 compared with the previous year (£2,464,222 in my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath 2009-10). (Michael Gove), has announced that he will not continue This information is a summary of transactions through to provide ring-fenced funding for school sport partnerships the Department’s Business Travel booking agent, Carlson beyond 31 August 2011. Wagonlit Travel. The number of journeys includes both Instead, the Secretary of State is making available one-way and return travel as the transaction record £65 million of new funding for schools to enable them does not distinguish between the two types of journey. to provide more opportunities for competitive sport. The number of journeys is understated slightly as a very This funding will cover the school years 2011/12 and few carnet tickets were procured, allowing multiple 2012/13 and will pay for one day a week of a secondary journeys from purchase of a single ticket. PE teacher’s time to be spent out of the classroom, There are clear policy principles guiding this issue encouraging greater take-up of competitive sport in and staff are expected to travel standard class except for primary schools and securing a fixture network for a very few special circumstances including access to schools to increase the amount of intra- and inter-school facilities to accommodate disabilities or if it can be sporting competition. This will include schools in the demonstrated that a first class ticket is lower cost than Crawley constituency. standard class. The Secretary of State for Education Further details about this funding will be sent to and other Ministers have a policy of travelling in standard schools later this term. The first tranche of funding is class. likely to be passed to secondary schools in September 2011. Education: Torbay

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Education when he plans to publish the results of the Africa: Overseas Aid review of March 2011 performance data of Torbay council’s children’s services following the improvement Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for notice. [55785] International Development what proportion of financial aid in respect of infrastructure projects in (a) Tim Loughton: Torbay council was issued with an Sierra Leone, (b) Niger, (c) Mozambique and (d) improvement notice on 31 January 2011, following an Liberia was directed to local contractors in each of the Ofsted inspection of safeguarding and looked-after last two years; how many indigenous companies were children’s services in October 2010 which found safeguarding contracted to carry out construction work for which his services to be inadequate. The improvement notice indicates Department allocated funding; how much such that funding his Department allocated to infrastructure “a review will be carried out on receipt of performance information projects in each of the last two years; and what the (i) relating to March 2011”. outturn cost and (ii) description was of each such project. [55838] A formal meeting will be held between officials from the Department and the council in July 2011 to review Mr Andrew Mitchell: Of the countries listed, the progress, using that information and other evidence Department for International Development (DFID) that will have become available between April and June has invested in infrastructure projects in Sierra Leone 2011. That review will be used to inform Ministers of and Mozambique. Information on these projects including progress and to consider next steps. Subsequent action, the purpose, budget and actual spend has been made including making the outcome of the review available, available in the Library of the House. Further detail on will be considered at that point. contractors and companies used, including their national origin cannot be provided without incurring Foster Care disproportionate cost. Value for money is DFID’s fundamental criterion when contracting others. Mr Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Consultants Education what information his Department holds on the number of young people who have been in foster Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for care who have completed an undergraduate course in International Development what the (a) name and (b) the latest period for which figures are available. [55518] country of origin is of each consultant engaged by his Department in (i) Sierra Leone, (ii) Liberia, (iii) Mali, Tim Loughton: Information on the number of (iv) Niger and (v) Mozambique in each year since 2004; young people who have been in foster care who have and what the (A) monetary value of each contract and completed an undergraduate course is not collected (B) nature of activity of each such consultant was. centrally. [55524] 125W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 126W

Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International officials, in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Mali, Niger, or Development (DFID) follows strict publicly available Mozambique, during the period specified. criteria to guide its use of consultants, and is committed DFID does employ around 750 locally engaged staff to transparency. However, providing the detail of in its network of overseas offices—around 32% of information requested over the period since 2004 would DFID’s total staff complement, but it is worth noting incur disproportionate cost. that the department does not have offices in Mali, Niger The Government have committed to publish all new or Liberia. Most of these staff are nationals of the central Government tenders and contracts over £10,000 countries in which they work. Increasing numbers of from January 2011 on the cross Government portal: our locally engaged staff are employed in professional http://www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/ advisory or senior administrative roles that are open to ?site=1000&lang=en graduates or those who have previous experience of All contracts issued centrally by DFID are currently working with partner governments or other public sector being published on this website, subject to exemptions institutions. under the Freedom of Information Act relating to, for example, commercially sensitive, or security related Developing Countries: Education disclosures. DFID is also in the process of developing systems to allow contracts issued by our overseas offices Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for for programme work to be published. International Development what performance Departmental Data Protection indicators his Department plans to use to measure its progress in supporting girls in completing nine years of Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for basic education by the end of 2014. [55465] International Development how many contracts his Department holds which allow contractors to store Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International personal data of UK citizens overseas; to which Development (DFID) will track completion of a full contracts this applies; in which countries the data for cycle of primary education as a key indicator in each of each such contract is held; and how many people have our partner countries where we have education programmes. their data stored overseas under each such contract. [55743] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps he is taking to Mr Duncan: In comparison with many other Government ensure that education of girls is a departmental Departments, particularly those engaged in delivery of priority. [55466] citizen-facing public services in the UK, the Department for International Development (DFID) holds relatively Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Government are placing little personal data. Most of the personal data which girls and women at the centre of our aid programme. DFID does hold relates to its current and former members All Department for International Development (DFID) of staff and to recipients of pensions paid to former education programmes will have a focus on girls and employees of British colonial Governments. Most personal young women. We are working with existing and new data held by DFID for these functions are stored in the development partners to combine general support to UK or in country offices by DFID itself and in accordance education systems with targeted interventions to address with the Department’s organisational data protection girls’ drop-out rates and support their transition to policy. Some data relating to staff are transferred on a lower secondary schooling. case by case basis according to business need to third party suppliers, some of whom may be based outside Following a comprehensive review of all UK aid the UK (for example, to make airline reservations or programmes, the Government plan to support at least arrange shipments of personal freight to country offices). nine million children in primary school, over half of whom will be girls, and two million children in secondary DFID has one contract with a supplier for the processing school by 2014. of pension payments to former employees of British colonial Governments overseas. The supplier’s payment service is located in the Republic of Ireland. Payments Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for are made in this way to approximately 3,500 recipients. International Development how many girls does the A majority of the recipients of such pensions are likely Department plan to support to complete the nine years to be British citizens. of basic education by the end of 2014. [55467]

Departmental Work Experience Mr Andrew Mitchell: Following a comprehensive review of all UK aid programmes, the Government plan to Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for support at least nine million children in primary school, International Development what in-country work- over half of whom will be girls, and two million children based placements his Department’s offices have in secondary school by 2014. provided to (a) undergraduates, (b) graduates and (c) government officials from (i) Sierra Leone, (ii) Liberia, Guyana: Climate Change (iii) Mali, (iv) Niger and (v) Mozambique in each year since 2004. [55525] Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International International Development what assistance his Development has not undertaken in-country work-based Department plans to provide to Guyana to counter the placements for undergraduates, graduates, or government effects of climate change in 2011-12. [56002] 127W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 128W

Mr Duncan: Guyana is part of the Department for mangrove protection. In previous years, the UK helped International Development (DFID)’s Caribbean regional fund the development and implementation of Guyana’s programme, including support to mitigate and adapt to Low Carbon Development Strategy, which includes climate change. forest protection. Norway is now supporting Guyana in Guyana also benefits from multilateral and international this field, so no additional UK bilateral support is programmes to which the UK contributes. The European anticipated this year. Union, for example, supports sea defence strengthening, North Korea: Overseas Aid mangrove planting and management in Guyana to help counter the effects of sea level rise and storm surges, while the Climate Development and Knowledge Network Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for provides advice and technical assistance on policy and International Development how much (a) food aid investment decisions to improve resilience to climate and (b) other aid his Department gave to North Korea change. In 2011-12, Guyana will also benefit from our in the last period for which figures are available; and support to the Caribbean Disaster Emergency Management how much aid has been given to North Korea in each Agency and the Caribbean Community Climate Change of the last five years for which figures are available. Centre on disaster risk reduction and climate change [55624] adaptation and mitigation. An economic review of the impacts of climate change on Guyana’s agriculture, Mr Duncan: In 2009-10, the Department for International coastal and human settlements and health is also under Development (DFID) provided £2.8 million in way with DFID assistance. humanitarian aid for North Korea through our core Guyana: Floods contribution to the United Nations Central Emergency Response Fund (CERF). This contribution was not Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for earmarked for specific purposes. International Development what assistance his In 2007-08, DFID gave £649,422 in humanitarian Department plans to provide to Guyana in respect of assistance to North Korea, £500,000 of which was food recent floods. [56003] aid for 215,000 people affected by floods. DFID did not provide aid to North Korea in 2005-06, Mr Duncan: The Department for International 2006-07 and 2008-09. Development (DFID) is not planning to offer any assistance to Guyana for its recovery from the floods of February Pakistan: Education and March this year. The Government of Guyana has not requested any international assistance to supplement Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for their recovery efforts in affected areas. International Development what arrangements are in We are in regular contact with Guyana’s Civil Defence place to ensure that funding from his Department for Commission, the Caribbean Disaster Emergency education in Pakistan is not used to support the Management Agency (CDEMA) and the Guyana Red teaching of hate in schools. [55566] Cross regarding the effects of flooding in Guyana. As with other Caribbean countries, we will continue to Mr Andrew Mitchell: Pakistan is facing an education monitor the effects of natural disasters and respond emergency; in response the UK Government will get appropriately when necessary. four million more children into school by 2015. To help Guyana: Overseas Aid ensure that UK aid is not being used to support the teaching of hate in Pakistani schools, the Department Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for for International Development (DFID) is working with International Development how much aid his the Pakistani authorities to support a curriculum audit Department plans to provide to Guyana for (a) and a textbooks development process to ensure all education, (b) health care, (c) governance and (d) textbooks promote peace and co-existence; improve environmental protection in 2011-12. [56001] teachers’recruitment and training processes; and strengthen the education system so that poor children have access Mr Duncan: The Department for International to mainstream schooling. Development (DFID) has a regional programme in the Caribbean focusing on governance and security, wealth Palestinians: International Assistance creation, climate change and disaster risk reduction. Guyana benefits from this programme directly, as well Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for as through regional bodies. Our regional programme International Development what assistance his does not include support to education or health. Until Department provides for those living in Palestinian December 2011, Guyana will benefit from our support refugee camps in Lebanon. [55710] to’ the United Nations Development Programme’s Enhancing Public Trust, Security and Inclusion programme Mr Duncan: The Department for International which includes work to strengthen governance by Development (DFID) provides support to Palestinian empowering communities to press for better services refugees in Lebanon through the UN Relief and Works and- greater accountability from Government. Agency (UNRWA). The UK is the second largest bilateral On environmental protection, Guyana will continue donor to UNRWA. Our five-year arrangement with to benefit from our regional climate change support UNRWA provides unearmarked funding to its general programme, as well as the programmes of multilateral budget, allowing UNRWA to plan for the long-term bodies (such as the World Bank and European Union) and improve service delivery to refugees across the to which the UK makes a significant contribution and region, We provided £27 million in 2010-11. Approximately which support a range of areas including forest and 12% of UNRWA’sgeneral budget spending is in Lebanon. 129W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 130W

In 2010-11, a further £1.5 million was provided to The UK has a five-year arrangement with UNRWA UNRWAspecifically to help prevent further deterioration to provide unearmarked funding to its general budget in the basic living standards of 5,670 families displaced which allows UNRWA to plan for the long-term and from Nahr el Bared camp in Lebanon. This funding improve service delivery to refugees. In 2010-11 the UK paid the rental subsidies for 3,436 families for two gave £27 million to UNRWA. Approximately 12% of months (January and February 2011), and hospitalisation UNRWA’s general budget spending is in Lebanon. and medical cover for 1,172 families (for December 2010). In addition, the Conflict Pool, which is jointly owned Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for and managed by DFID, the Foreign and Commonwealth International Development what assessment his Office and the Ministry of Defence, provided £250,000 Department has made of the humanitarian situation of in 2010-11 for projects to strengthen dialogue between Palestinian refugees in Lebanon; and what effect their the Lebanese Government and Palestinian representatives; situation has on the assistance they require from the to support Palestinian refugee civil society groups to UK (a) directly and (b) through the United Nations improve governance in refugee camps; and to reduce Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the conflict both within camps and between Lebanese and Near East. [55940] Palestinian communities. Mr Duncan: The most recent assessment of the Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for humanitarian situation of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon International Development what assessment he has is the report by the UN Relief and Works Agency made of UN General Assembly resolution A/RES/65/ (UNRWA),‘Socio-economic survey of Palestinian refugees 272 on the strengthening of the management capacity in Lebanon’, published in December 2010. UNRWA of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for has said that it needs £350 million ($568 million) for Palestine Refugees in the Near East. [55788] 2011 to be able to carry out its work in the region, of which approximately £42 million ($68 million) will be Mr Duncan: The UK voted in favour of the UN spent in Lebanon. An additional £11 million General Assembly resolution A/RES/65/272, in line ($18.51 million) will be needed for the rebuilding of with our support for management reform in the UN Nahr el Bared camp and to support families to return Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) and in recognition their homes. of UNRWA’s critical financial situation. The UK is the second largest bilateral donor to UNRWA. We provided £27 million in unearmarked Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for funding to UNRWA’s general budget in 2010-11. In International Development what assessment he has addition we provided £1.5 million last year specifically made of the adequacy of funding for the UN Relief to support families displaced from Nahr el Bared camp and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees. [55926] in Lebanon. Approximately 12% of UNRWA’s general budget is spent in Lebanon. Mr Duncan: The UN Relief and Works Agency In addition, the Conflict Pool, which is jointly owned (UNWRA) faces a projected deficit of $63 million in its and managed by DFID, the Foreign and Commonwealth general budget for 2011. We are concerned that the Office and the Ministry of Defence, provided £250,000 deficit will undermine the provision of education, health in 2010-11 for projects to strengthen dialogue between and social services to refugees. the Lebanese Government and Palestinian representatives; UNRWA, donors and host countries need to work to support Palestinian refugee civil society groups to together to put UNRWA’s finances on a sustainable improve governance in refugee camps; and to reduce basis. We call on all countries to honour their funding conflict both within camps and between Lebanese and commitments to UNWRA. The UK is the second largest Palestinian communities. bilateral donor to UNWRA, having provided £27 million to the general budget in 2010-11. West Africa Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what proportion of the Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for support to Palestinian refugees in Lebanon announced International Development in which joint projects his in February 2011 was allocated to rebuilding the Nahr Department is engaged in (a) Sierra Leone, (b) el Bared refugee camp in Northern Lebanon; and how Liberia, (c) Mali, (d) Niger and (e) Mozambique in much of the allocated funding has been spent. [55927] each year since 2004; and what the name is of each project partner in each such country. [55555] Mr Duncan: The Department for International Development (DFID) announced £1.5 million of additional Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International support to the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) Development works with a range of bilateral and in February 2011, all of which was allocated to preventing multilateral development partners to support poverty further deterioration in the basic living standards of reduction in developing countries. We have placed 5,670 families displaced from Nahr el Bared. This funding information in the Library of the House of Commons paid the rental subsidies for 3,436 families for two about projects funded jointly by DFID and one or more months (January and February 2011), and hospitalisation bilateral or multilateral partners in Sierra Leone, Liberia, and medical cover for 1,172 families (for December Mali, Niger and Mozambique, for the years 2008 to 2010); none of the funding was allocated for rebuilding 2010. Providing information for previous years would work. incur disproportionate cost. 131W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 132W

West Africa: Overseas Aid Information about project spending and funding supplied to governments has been placed in the Library of the Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for House of Commons. International Development what inward investment Additional information relating to the aid budget activity his Department’s offices in (a) Sierra Leone, and the proportion directed to recipient governments (b) Liberia, (c) Mali, (d) Niger and (e) Mozambique can be found on the DFID website in the annual have undertaken in the last five years; and what publication “Statistics on International Development” estimate he has made of the (i) cost and (ii) investment (SID). returns of such activities. [55602]

Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International WORK AND PENSIONS Development does not provide support directly for inward investment through its bilateral programmes. Employment and Support Allowance: Chronic Fatigue DFID recognises that private sector driven economic Syndrome growth is essential for sustained poverty reduction. We support a number of African countries to tackle the Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for barriers to growth and improve the enabling environment Work and Pensions if he will initiate a review of the for business investment and trade, including Sierra Leone. guidance on myalgic encephalomyelitis provided to (a) new and (b) existing (i) assessors and (ii) other staff in A key part of the UK’s development strategy in (A) his Department and (B) Atos. [56164] Sierra Leone is to reduce dependency on donor funds, through an increase in foreign investment. We are also Chris Grayling: Guidance on chronic fatigue syndrome/ working closely with the Government of Sierra Leone, myalgic encephalomyelitis is already kept under regular the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank review. The guidance for decision-makers is updated in to improve access to finance for the private sector to light of relevant developments. For Atos health care drive wealth creation. professionals there are a range of training and information products which are reviewed on an ongoing regular Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for basis, such as a learning set which is reviewed annually. International Development which projects funded by his Department in (a) Sierra Leone, (b) Liberia, (c) Housing Benefit Mali, (d) Niger and (e) Mozambique cost over £5,000 in each year since 2006; what the (i) cost to the public Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and purse, (ii) objectives and (iii) direct beneficiaries of Pensions whether he intends to apply a housing benefit each such project were; and what assessment reports deduction to social tenants deemed to be under- have been completed for each such project. [55606] occupying their homes where a forthcoming change of circumstances would mean the property could no Mr Andrew Mitchell: Providing detailed information longer be defined as such due to dependent children on all projects over £5,000 since 2006 would incur reaching an age which changed their eligibility for a disproportionate cost. Information about the Department bedroom. [53717] for International Development’s (DFID’s) bilateral programmes can be found on the DFID website, in a Steve Webb: We are currently considering the policy range of publications, and in the annual reports presented detail of this measure and how it will be implemented. to Parliament. Further details will be published in due course. This Government are committed to making the aid Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and budget transparent and accountable to the British taxpayer Pensions if he will estimate the number of claimants as well as recipients of our aid. That is why in January not currently eligible for housing benefit who will be 2011, as part of the new UK Aid Transparency Guarantee, affected by the proposed total household benefit cap. we began to publish information on the DFID website [55015] for all new projects over £500, including core project documentation. From 1 April 2011, all annual reviews Steve Webb: The number of claimants not currently and project completion reports for current projects eligible for housing benefit who will be affected by the valued at £1 million and over have also been made proposed total household benefit cap is estimated to be available on the website. less than 10%. Analysis of those affected by the benefit cap has been Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for modelled using survey data—as such there is a degree of International Development what proportion of his uncertainty around the results. Department’s aid budget for (a) Sierra Leone, (b) Liberia, (c) Mali, (d) Niger and (e) Mozambique was Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and allocated to projects sponsored by his Department in Pensions which benefit accounts for the largest each year since 2006; and how much and what proportion of welfare receipts of claimants likely to be proportion of the budget for each such country was affected by the proposed total housing benefit cap. paid directly to its government in each such year. [55017] [55611] Steve Webb: It is estimated that child tax credit and Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International housing benefit account for the largest proportion of Development (DFID) has provided bilateral funding to welfare receipts of households that are likely to be Sierra Leone, Niger and Mozambique since 2006. affected by the total benefit cap. 133W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 134W

Analysis of those affected by the benefit cap has been which we are exploring fully. We believe it should be modelled using survey data—as such there is a degree of possible to provide support more efficiently but it will uncertainty around the results. take time to reach a sensible conclusion on the long-term future design of any support for homeowners. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate he made of the level of (a) National Employment Savings Trust Scheme: Shipping private and (b) social housing rents in forming his estimate of the likely number of people that will be Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for affected by his planned benefits entitlement cap. [55998] Work and Pensions for what reason merchant seamen are excluded from the National Employment Savings Steve Webb: The benefit cap modelling is based on Trust. [55825] DWP’s Policy Simulation Model, which uses data from the 2008-09 Family Resources Survey. Rent levels have Steve Webb: Under the automatic enrolment provisions been uprated from 2008-09 to 2013-14 prices, taking which are due to be rolled out from 2012, employers to into account inflation projections, changes in housing whom the duties apply will be able to use the National policy and recent trends in rental prices. Employment Savings Trust, or any other qualifying The impact assessment for the benefit cap is on the pension scheme. DWP website at: The Pensions Act 2008 currently excludes seafarers http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/household-benefit-cap-wr2011- from automatic enrolment. This was because time was ia.pdf needed to fully consider the complex issues that arose in considering whether and how seafarers would be covered Mortgages: Government Assistance by these provisions. Discussions with other interested Government Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Departments and stakeholders to resolve these issues and Pensions whether he has any plans to produce an are ongoing and I expect to be able to update the House equality impact assessment in respect of his proposed on the conclusion of this work soon. changes to support for mortgage interest using a larger sample size. [55263] National Insurance

Steve Webb: We draw on all available information Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and quantitative evidence to establish and produce written and Pensions how many (a) new national insurance assessments of the impact of DWP policies on equality. numbers were registered and (b) new workers there There are, however, limitations in the available information were in the UK in 2009-10; and if he will make a which sometimes affect the scope of assessments, statement. [53470] particularly in relation to different ethnic minority groups. In light of the introduction of universal credit, we are Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply. considering whether changes are needed to the current HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) latest figures approach of calculating help with mortgage costs for available show that around 1.4 million new national both working age and pensioner claimants. There are a insurance numbers (NINOs) were registered between number of possible options which we are exploring April 2009 and March 2010. It would be disproportionately fully. We believe it should be possible to provide support expensive to identify how many individuals worked for more efficiently but it will take time to reach a sensible the first time during this period. conclusion on the long-term future design of any support for homeowners. Unemployed People In taking this work forward, we will assess equality impacts using all available information. We will also Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and gather further information to inform the assessments Pensions what estimate he has made of the number of where appropriate and cost-effective to do so. households where there has been multi-generational worklessness; and what proportion this represented of Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the total number of workless households. [52515] and Pensions what plans he has to provide assistance to pensioners with outstanding mortgage debt; and if he Chris Grayling: The source for the official number of will make a statement. [53601] workless households and children in workless households is the household Labour Force Survey. Steve Webb: Pensioners who are entitled to state Latest data (Quarter 4 2010) shows there are almost pension credit may receive an additional element called four million households where no one works, covering support for mortgage interest. This makes a contribution 5.61 million working age (16 to 64) people and 1.86 million towards the interest on eligible loans taken out to children aged 0 to 16. purchase the property, and specific loans for repairs and improvements which are necessary to maintain the home’s Universal Credit fitness for habitation. We are considering currently whether changes are Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for needed to the current approach of calculating help with Work and Pensions which programmes of IT support mortgage costs for both pensioner and working age for the implementation of universal credit have claimants. There are a number of possible options commenced to date. [55505] 135W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 136W

Chris Grayling: The initial design of the universal Mr Lidington: As the Secretary of State for Foreign credit core IT system is now under way and is being and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the developed. The core IT system will include the online Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), made accessibility, the data store and the universal credit rules clear in his statement to the House on 11 May 2011, capability. Official Report, columns 1165-1168, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has no plans to cease to Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for fund any of its core functions as a result of its 2010 Work and Pensions which organisation is the lead spending round settlement. provider for each programme of IT support for However, in 2014-15 responsibility for funding the implementation of universal credit; what the estimated British Broadcasting Corporation World Service will budget of each programme is; what the principal transfer from being a ‘grant-in-aid’ payment from the deliverables from each programme are; and by what FCO to the Licence Fee. date each such deliverable is due. [55506]

Chris Grayling: Currently Accenture are the lead United Nations General Assembly service providers for application development, and HPES are leading on the deployment of infrastructure. British Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Telecom are providing the networking provision. These and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has contracts are in line with our current framework agreements. made of the resolution passed at the United Nations We expect the application and infrastructure to be General Assembly to grant the EU higher participation delivered by October 2013. status; what additional rights for the EU he expects as a To safeguard our commercial position we are unable result of that resolution; and if he will make a to divulge the specific IT budgets. statement. [55517]

Mr Lidington: The United Nations General Assembly resolution on the “Participation of the European Union FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE in the Work of the United Nations” was adopted on 3 May 2011 in the United Nations General Assembly by British Nationals Abroad: Offences against Children a vote of 180 in favour, 0 against and 2 abstentions, Syria and Zimbabwe. Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for As the Deputy Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment the Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg), said in he has made of the effectiveness of European Criminal his address to the UN General Assembly in September Records Information System in enabling exchange of 2010 criminal records between EU member states; and what “it is important that the vital role of the EU in promoting contribution he expects it to make to preventing known development and prosperity can be adequately represented in the sex offenders from targeting children overseas. [55925] General Assembly.” The 3 May 2011 result achieves this, while preserving Lynne Featherstone: I have been asked to reply. our interests on how EU member states are represented The implementation date for the European Criminal externally. Records Information System (ECRIS) is April 2012. The resolution allows technical and procedural changes When it is implemented we expect the speed with which to ensure the EU can continue to be represented as criminal records are exchanged between EU member effectively as it was before the new presidency arrangements states to increase. We also expect member states to established by the Lisbon treaty came into effect before exchange more criminal records once this can be done the resolution, the EU’s rotating presidency, or electronically rather than on paper. Together these should another EU member state, represented the EU agreed improve the effectiveness of criminal record exchange position in the UN General Assembly. The Lisbon within the European Union. treaty transferred from the rotating presidency to the ECRIS is not an EU wide criminal record system, High Representative the responsibilities for chairing the nor is it EU wide sex offenders’ register. It is instead a Foreign Affairs Council and representing common foreign computerised criminal record exchange system. The policy positions agreed unanimously by the member effectiveness with which ECRIS will prevent known sex state. This resolution now allows that, while remaining offenders from targeting children overseas depends on an observer, the EU itself can represent common agreed the extent to which other member states chose to make positions of member states in the General Assembly. requests for the previous convictions of those seeking to EU representatives—including the President of the work with children. The UK already encourages other European Council or Baroness Ashton—can now be member states to seek the previous convictions of UK inscribed on the list of speakers among representatives nationals who are seeking to work with children. of major groups in order to make early interventions and may be invited to participate in the general debate Departmental Responsibilities of the General Assembly, subject to the limits set out in the resolution text. It remains, however, the case that Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for the EU representatives can only do this if the UK and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether his other member states authorise them to do so. Furthermore, Department plans to cease to fund any of its functions EU representatives speak and act on behalf of the over the period of the comprehensive spending review. 27 member states with their authorisation, not in addition [55186] to them. 137W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 138W

The resolution underlines the intergovernmental nature Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport Ministers of the General Assembly, whose membership is limited meet regularly with representatives from UK and European to UN member states. It does not affect the UK’s organisations where they discuss a range of transport sovereignty; nor does it affect the UK’s ability to act issues including the use of biofuels in aviation. independently in the UN or internationally. The rights The Government have announced their intention to of individual EU member states are not curtailed. Moreover, develop a sustainable policy framework for UK aviation. the resolution makes very clear that the EU will remain On 30 March 2011, the Department for Transport an observer. Its status in the General Assembly is published a scoping document that frames the debate unchanged. on the future direction of aviation policy and asks a The EU representative will continue to be seated series of questions, including on use of biofuels in among the other international organisations that have aviation. The responses to the scoping document will observer status. help to inform the development of a draft framework, The effect of the resolution is limited to the General which we intend to publish for full public consultation Assembly (including Committees, working groups, in March 2012. international meetings and UN conferences). It does not affect the rights or status of the EU or member Aviation: Working Hours states in any other UN body or international organisation. The UK’s position in the UN Security Council is not Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for affected. Transport how many meetings Ministers in his Department have had with (a) airlines and (b) pilots’ representatives since May 2010. [53602] ATTORNEY-GENERAL Mrs Villiers: Ministers in the Department for Transport Departmental Data Protection frequently meet with representatives of airlines and pilots. Details of all ministerial meetings with external Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Attorney-General how organisations between May 2010 and December 2010 many contracts the Law Officers’ Departments hold have been published on the Department’s website: which allow contractors to store personal data of UK http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/ministers/transparency/ citizens overseas; to which contracts this applies; in which countries the data for each such contract is held; Information since January 2011 is being collated and and how many people have their data stored overseas will be released as soon as practical to do so. under each such contract. [55747] Biofuels The Solicitor-General: The Law Officers’ Departments do not have any contracts which permit the contractor Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for to store personal data of UK Citizens overseas. Transport whether his Department classifies bio- ethanol as a second generation biofuel; and if he will make a statement. [52962] TRANSPORT Norman Baker: Bioethanol is ethanol produced from Aircraft: Seating bio sources. It can be classed as either first or second generation (advanced) biofuel depending on the feedstock Mr Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport and processes used to produce it. whether his Department plans to review the regulations First generation bioethanol derived from crops such governing (a) the minimum size of and (b) distance as wheat, sugar cane and sugar beet is one of the most between passenger seats applicable to aircraft common biofuels in use today. 29% of biofuel supplied registered in the UK. [54789] under the renewable transport fuel obligation in year 2009-10 was bioethanol. Mrs Villiers: The requirements for seat standards in commercial transport aircraft are set by the European DFT recognises that advanced or “second generation” Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). They apply to EU biofuels may offer many benefits including increased registered aircraft including those registered in the UK. greenhouse gas savings, producing fuels from land which was otherwise unproductive or from waste material The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has an additional with no other uses. Some advanced biofuels may also be requirement which identifies minimum seat spacing for more readily used in current vehicles than first generation all UK registered aircraft commonly used in commercial biofuels. flights to ensure that passengers are able to vacate their seats quickly in an emergency. The CAA has notified The renewable energy directive encourages biofuels EASA of this requirement and the safety case for from wastes, residues and lignocellulosic material, by establishing a minimum distance between seat rows. double counting the contribution they make towards national targets. Aviation: Biofuels Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Transport when his Department plans to conduct its for Transport with which representatives of (a) consultation on the inclusion of bio-methanol as a European and (b) UK organisations he has discussed biofuel classified as eligible for rewards under the the use of biofuels in aviation since May 2010; and if he renewable transport fuels obligation; and if he will will make a statement. [55405] make a statement. [52964] 139W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 140W

Norman Baker: Biofuels are supported in the UK Cycling: Safety through the renewable transport fuels obligation (RTFO). One renewable transport fuel certificate is awarded for Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for every litre (or kilogram in the case of gaseous fuels) of Transport if he will meet representatives of the All biofuel reported. Party Parliamentary Cycling Group to discuss issues of We are currently consulting on amendments to the road safety of interest to cyclists. [53987] RTFO to implement both the transport elements of the renewable energy directive (RED) and aspects of Mike Penning: I would be delighted to meet with the closely related fuel quality directive (FQD). representatives of the All Party Parliamentary Cycling Group to discuss road safety issues of interest to cyclists. The consultation includes the proposal to expand the We share the objective of improving cycling safety and I scope of the current RTFO such that all renewable fuels would be interested to hear the group’s views on how of biological origin are eligible to be counted towards the Government can best support the delivery of this discharging the obligation. This proposed change would objective. make bio-methanol eligible for support through the RTFO. The consultation documents are available at: Departmental Public Transport http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/ Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport on what date (a) he and (b) each other Transport what consideration his Department has Minister in his Department last travelled by (i) London given to the findings of the Nuffield Council on Underground and (ii) public bus services on Bioethics report, Biofuels: ethical issues; and whether government business; how many times (A) he and (B) he plans to take any steps as a consequence of its each other Minister in his Department has travelled by findings. [53226] each such form of transport on government business since May 2010; and if he will make a statement. Norman Baker: The Nuffield Council on Bioethics [50073] report presents some finely balanced arguments around the ethical issues of biofuels. Norman Baker: The information requested is as follows. The Government are clear that biofuels used must (a) (i) The Secretary of State for Transport most recently lead to a worthwhile reduction in carbon emissions and travelled by London Underground on Government business last be sustainable. We are working with colleagues across week on 11 and 13 of May 2011. Government to ensure a coherent approach to the (b) (i) Theresa Villiers last travelled by London Underground deployment of sustainable biofuels. on Government business on 16 May 2011. As part of the EU renewable energy directive, the Mike Penning has not travelled by London Underground. European Commission must monitor and report every I last travelled by London Underground on Government two years on the impact of biofuel policy on social business on 6 April 2011. sustainability. (b) (ii) Theresa Villiers has not travelled by public bus on The reports must address issues of land use rights, Government business. and state whether the raw material for biofuel use in the Mike Penning last travelled by public bus on Government EU has complied with Conventions of the International business on 15 March 2011. Labour Organisation. If necessary the Commission must I last travelled by public bus on Government business propose corrective action. on 10 May 2011. Commuters The Secretary of State for Transport has not travelled on public bus on official business. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Information about the number of journeys undertaken for Transport what steps his Department has taken to by each Minister by each form of transport is not promote Walk to Work Week to commuters. [55404] recorded in the format requested and could be provided only at disproportionate cost, given the frequency with Norman Baker: The coalition Government are committed which public transport is used by Ministers. to supporting sustainable travel initiatives, including Ministers at the Department for Transport proactively walking and cycling. Given that half of all car journeys seek to use public transport or cycling options wherever are under five miles there would be improvements to possible. Section 10 of the Ministerial Code provides health, air quality and traffic congestion if more of guidance for Ministers and makes clear that Ministers these journeys were undertaken either on foot, bike, or must ensure that they always make efficient and cost by public transport. effective travel arrangements. Our new Local Sustainable Transport Fund has made £560 million available to local transport authorities to Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Yeovil fund schemes that create growth and cut carbon, including those which incentivise walking. Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the location will be of the new DVLA driving test On 12 May I walked to work with Living Streets as centre in Yeovil; when that centre will open; and if he part of Walk to Work week. Many members of staff at will make a statement. [55416] the Department of Transport and across Whitehall have also taken the opportunity to walk to work. Mike Penning: Negotiations for a licence to occupy a We are also encouraging staff to think about how unit at the Abbey Business Park, Yeovil are close to they can travel and work differently as part of our being concluded. A planning application for change of preparations for reducing our travel during the Olympics use has been lodged with South Somerset district council next summer. (SSDC) and a decision is awaited. 141W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 142W

The opening of the new test centre is dependent on Motor Vehicles: Excise Duties SSDC agreeing the change of use. The Driving Standards Agency cannot commit to an Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for opening date for the test centre until the outcome of the Transport pursuant to the contribution of the application is known. Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport of 30 March 2011, Official Report, column 144WH, Great Western Railway: Finance what proportion of receipts from vehicle excise duty and other taxes on motorists were spent on the road network in the latest period for which figures are Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for available. [55758] Transport what payments his Department has made to First Great Western in each year since the company Mike Penning: The Chancellor of the Exchequer’s became the franchise holder for the Great Western annual Budget document, available via the HM Treasury Main Line; and what the total net subsidy to that website, sets out the Government’s spending and revenue company has been during that period. [56143] plans. Revenue from the various motoring taxes (including fuel duties and vehicle excise duties) is not ring-fenced Mrs Villiers: This information is published annually for expenditure on roads. by the Office of Rail Regulation in ‘National Rail Trends’. Copies are available in the Library of the Parking: Fees and Charges House and online at: http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1863 Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans he has to introduce an exemption High Speed 2 Railway Line for car rental and leasing businesses from responsibility for parking fines incurred by customers hiring their vehicles. [54197] Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport which local authorities were sent a letter Norman Baker: Regulations made by the Government announcing the launch of the current public for parking enforcement in England (including London) consultation on High Speed 2. [54017] under the Traffic Management Act 2004 enable the keeper of a vehicle that was, at the material time, hired Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 4 May 2011]: I from a vehicle hire company under a hiring agreement, wrote to all council leaders in England on 28 February to pass responsibility for the payment of any penalty with details of the public consultation. charge notice (PCN) incurred to the hirer. We have no plans to change the regulations. Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will take steps to ensure that service Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for operators on the West Coast Mainline do not attempt Transport whether his Department collects to compete on speed with High Speed 2 services by information on the (a) revenue generated from (i) reducing the number of places serviced on their permits and (ii) fines in relation to restricted parking long-distance routes between London and Manchester. zones and (b) the number of parking permits issued [54804] for restricted parking zones by local authorities. [55764]

Mr Philip Hammond: The specification for any franchise Norman Baker: The Secretary of State for Transport on the West Coast Main Line after 2026 would not be does not collect any information in relation to (a) determined until considerably nearer the time. However, revenue generated from (i) permits (ii) fines in relation the West Coast Main Line is likely to be considerably to restricted parking zones or (b) the number of parking better placed to compete with HS2 in terms of destinations permits issued for restricted parking zones. served rather than journey speeds. Railways: Franchises Motor Vehicle: Testing Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he has had on the inclusion Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for of language requirements in the tendering process for Transport whether his Department has any plans to rail franchises which include Wales. [56144] change the frequency of MOT inspections for private and commercial vehicles; and if he will make a Mrs Villiers: No discussions have taken place. As statement. [53202] part of the recent consultation on the Intercity West Coast franchise, the Department received no representation Mike Penning [holding answer 3 May 2011]: I intend for documentation or meetings in languages other than to review the MOT test scheme. I have not preconceptions English. about the outcome of a review; the aim will be to strike the right balance between vehicle safety and the burden Renewable Energy: EU Law imposed on motorists by MOT test requirements. I will make an announcement in due course about the Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for timing and scope of the review, which will include, but Transport whether his Department expects to fully not be limited to, a review of MOT test frequency. implement the Renewable Energy Directive before the There will be an opportunity for anyone with an interest outcome of the EU examination of indirect land use to contribute to the debate. change; and if he will make a statement. [52963] 143W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 144W

Norman Baker: We are currently consulting on proposals Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport has not to implement the transport elements of the Renewable directly funded refurbishment of train carriages. This is Energy Directive. The consultation period will run until usually funded by rolling stock leasing companies or 2 June 2011. Consultation documents can be found on train operating companies. the Department for Transport (DfT) website. Vehicle Number Plates: Fraud DfT takes the issue of indirect land use change (ILUC) seriously. We have recently published research Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for on the scale of ILUC and are continuing to lead work Transport what mechanism he has put in place to on how to reduce ILUC impacts. prevent the cloning of number plates. [52885] Given the legitimate concerns and uncertainties around the sustainability of some biofuels, the consultation Mike Penning: The Driver and Vehicle Licensing does not propose changes to the current overall biofuel Agency (DVLA) maintains a register of number plate supply trajectory that is set out in the Renewable Transport suppliers as a means of regulating the supply of number Fuel Obligation Order 2007. However, there will be a plates. Since 2003 customers requiring new or replacement legal obligation on the Secretary of State for Transport number plates have been required to provide evidence to keep this issue under review and to consider what of entitlement to the registration mark and proof of additional measures will be required to ensure that the identity before being issued with a number plate. Suppliers UK delivers the requirements of the EU RED and are required to keep records of sales. DVLA enforcement FQD period 2014 to 2020. officers take action in cases of non-compliance. We will review the European Commission report on In addition, DVLA has endorsed a voluntary standard options for addressing ILUC before setting post-2014 for anti-theft number plates that are incapable of being targets. removed from a vehicle and re-used. These plates are commercially available and motorists are encouraged to fit them as a sensible precaution to protect themselves Roads: Accidents against the risk of theft.

Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate he has made of the potential COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT effects of his proposals for the MOT vehicle test on the number of people (a) killed, (b) seriously injured and Affordable Housing (c) slightly injured as a result of motoring accidents; and if he will make a statement. [53784] Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent Mike Penning: I intend to review the MOT test scheme. representations he has received on succession rights I want to make sure that a review takes account of all and social housing. [55642] the latest information available to us. To that end, we Andrew Stunell: So far this year, the Department has have recently published the results of independent research received seven letters from Members of Parliament and the Department commissioned to examine how vehicle members of the public on succession rights in social defects affect accident rates, and to consider the potential housing. These letters have focussed on the restrictions road safety impact of changing the frequency of the imposed by current legislation in this area. MOT. The Effect of Vehicle Defects in Road Accidents report can be found at The Localism Bill contains provisions that will change succession rules to allow social landlords greater freedom http://www.trl.co.uk/library/reports_publications/ latest_publications/ to grant further succession rights in the light of individual circumstances. This research will be a useful addition to other information we will be gathering through the review process. Allotments

Roads: EU Action Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what powers his Department has concerning the provision of Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for allotments; what plans he has for his policy on Transport whether he plans to bring forward proposals allotments; and what his policy is on allotment owners to allow the EU to exercise greater control over the who have their own garden. [56169] road network in the UK. [53079] Robert Neill: The Secretary of State for Communities Mike Penning [holding answer 28 April 2011]: There and Local Government, the right hon. Member for are no proposals to give the EU greater control over the Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles) has powers to consent UK’s road network and the Government have no intention to the disposal of statutory allotments or the use of of bringing forward any such proposals. statutory allotments for other purposes. The Department has no intention of removing statutory Rolling Stock: Repairs and Maintenance protections for allotments and, as such, we have no plans to remove local authorities’ statutory duties to provide allotments. We will continue to support local Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for communities who want to use local spaces for community Transport how many train carriages his Department food growing, and to protect existing land for this has paid to be refurbished in the last five years. [55331] purpose, for example, through new neighbourhood planning 145W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 146W provisions in the Localism Bill, which will provide a The Department is continuing to work closely with new right for communities to shape their local areas, the National Fraud Authority who has recently announced including the means to boost allotment provision. The the creation of a framework agreement that will allow Department published a news release to this effect on local authorities to use credit reference agencies more 7 May, available at: cheaply. www.communities.gov.uk/news/corporate/1897155 On 11 May, my Department issued a 10-point checklist Research produced by the university of Derby in in conjunction with the National Fraud Authority on 2006, based on a partial survey of local authorities, how councils can save taxpayers’ money by tackling reported that in the period 1996 to 2006, the number of fraud. I have placed a copy in the Library of the House. allotment plots fell by 50,630. The report, commissioned but unpublished by the previous Government, was posted Departmental Billing up on the DCLG website on 6 May, available at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/corporate/pdf/ Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for 1897047.pdf Communities and Local Government how many We will also continue to help highlight guidance to invoices his Department received in respect of goods or local authorities, available via “A Place to Grow” on the services supplied by tier 1 suppliers between 1 May LGA website at: 2010 and 1 April 2011; and how many of those invoices www.lga.gov.uk/lga/publications/publication- were not paid within the period of time specified in the display.do?id=9027596 Government’s Fair Payment guidance. [55874] The Department has no specific policy on allotment holders who have their own gardens. Robert Neill: In the period between 1 May 2010 and Audit Commission 31 March 2011 a total of 27,319 invoices were processed for payment of which 5,418 (19.84%) were not paid Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for within the five-day prompt payment target. (The target Communities and Local Government on what date he is that 80% are to be paid within five days.) decided to appoint consultants to advise on future arrangements for the audit practice aspect of the Audit Derelict Land: Housing Commission’s work; and what the cost of appointing them was. [53641] Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what proportion Robert Neill [holding answer 3 May 2011]: The Secretary of homes built in each of the last 14 years were built on of State for Communities and Local Government, my brownfield land. [52089] right hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles) agreed in February that officials could Greg Clark: Information on the proportion of homes begin a competitive tender process for financial advice built on previously-developed land (including all relating to the transfer the work of the Audit Commission’s conversions), the proportion on previously residential in-house practice into the private sector. The successful land and the proportion on previously-developed land tenderer, FTI, was subsequently appointed in April at a excluding land that was previously residential is shown cost of £100,000 excluding VAT. I refer the hon. Member in the following table. to the news story about this appointment on my Department’s website: Proportion of dwellings built on previously-developed land http://www.communities.gov.uk/newsstories/localgovernment/ Percentage 1889672 All previously- All previously developed land Previously developed land As part of the Government’s commitment to plus all residential excl. previously transparency, this contract, like all contracts entered conversions1 land2,3 residential into by the Department, is available on the following 1995 57 12 43 website: 1996 57 11 42 http://www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk/ 1997 56 11 42 Council Housing 1998 58 12 43 1999 59 12 44 Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for 2000 62 15 44 Communities and Local Government what steps he is 2001 64 15 46 taking to prevent the sub-letting of council houses by 2002 67 15 49 their tenants. [56148] 2003 70 16 51 2004 75 19 53 Andrew Stunell: Last December, the Minister for 2005 77 20 55 Housing and Local Government, my right hon. Friend 2006 76 22 52 the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps), 2007 77 27 50 announced a £20 million package to help social landlords 2008 80 24 54 crack down on the unlawful sub-letting of their stock. 20094 80 27 51 Approximately £19 million will be given to local 1 Net additional homes from conversion of existing dwellings; estimated to add three percentage points up to 2002. The process of estimation has been authorities over the next four years, and we are also elaborated from 2003. funding the Chartered Institute of Housing to host a 2 As reported by Ordnance Survey, mainly excluding conversions. team of experts to offer practical help and advice to 3 Includes development on gardens and after demolition of dwellings. 4 Provisional. social landlords on the most effective ways to tackle Source: tenancy fraud and under-occupation. Land Use Change Statistics Live Tables 211 and 221 147W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 148W

Energy Performance Certificates Since fuel bills for short term holiday lets are normally paid for by the property owner, increasing transparency Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for about the energy efficiency of the building will reduce Communities and Local Government what estimate he utility bills for the owner, if the recommendations are has made of the number of small businesses that will taken up. be affected by the requirement for holiday lets to have Fire Services: Hoaxes and False Alarms energy performance certificates. [55568] Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: Where the owner intends to rent out Communities and Local Government how many (a) the property for a combined period of more than four genuine and (b) malicious fire emergency calls have months in any 12 month period, we estimate that 55,000 been received from Leeds North West constituency in to 70,000 dwellings which are used as short term holiday each year since 2004. [55440] lets will be affected. An impact assessment is available on my Department’s Robert Neill: The information held centrally is only website: to fire authority level. The numbers of malicious false http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ alarm calls and other emergency calls to West Yorkshire planningandbuilding/epcholidayletsia fire and rescue service are shown in the following table:

Total emergency calls and malicious false alarms calls to West Yorkshire fire and rescue service, 2004-051 to 2009-10 2004-051 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Malicious false alarm calls n/a 4,062 3,903 2,395 2,149 1,415 Other emergency calls n/a 88,625 88,458 82,000 76,163 74,012 Total emergency calls 88,401 92,687 92,361 84,395 78,312 75,427 1 Data for malicious/other emergency calls were not held centrally prior to 2005-06. Source: West Yorkshire fire and rescue service.

Housing: Construction Robert Neill: If the council requires the land for a scheme and can demonstrate that there is a compelling case in the public interest for its acquisition, they already Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for have a range of compulsory purchase powers which Communities and Local Government what proportion they can use to acquire and regenerate abandoned land. of homes built in Portsmouth were built on brownfield land in each of the last five years. [54519] Religious Buildings: Planning Permission

Greg Clark: Information on the proportion of homes Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for built on previously developed land, the proportion on Communities and Local Government how many previously residential land and the proportion on previously planning applications for places of religious worship developed land excluding land that was previously were considered by the Planning Inspectorate in each residential in Portsmouth is shown in the following of the last three years. [55456] table. Proportion of new dwellings built on previously developed and previously Robert Neill: The total number of related planning residential land, Portsmouth applications considered by the Planning Inspectorate, All previously developed land as appeals or called in applications, for each of the last excluding three financial years is detailed in the following table. Previously Previously previously developed residential1 residential Financial year Number considered 1994-97 70 12 58 2008-09 33 1998 to 2001 85 17 68 2009-10 42 2002-05 95 16 79 2010-11 46 2006-09 91 21 70 1 1ncludes development on gardens and after demolition of dwellings. Source: Rented Housing: Private Sector Land Use Change Statistics.

Information for local authorities is shown for four-year Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for periods because of volatility in estimates for individual Communities and Local Government what discussions years. (a) he and (b) Ministers in his Department have had with Shelter on unscrupulous landlords since May Land: Ownership 2010. [55420]

Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: Ministers in the Department have Communities and Local Government what plans he discussed issues of mutual interest with Shelter on 10 has to facilitate councils taking control of abandoned occasions since May 2010. These discussions have covered land with no registered owner. [55419] a range of topics, including private rented sector landlords. 149W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 150W

Shared Ownership Schemes to discuss the benefits of UK ratification. A Government response to the call for evidence will be released in the Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for near future. Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the number of shared ownership English Language: Education properties that have been sold on in the latest period for which figures are available. [55644] Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: Information on shared ownership Business, Innovation and Skills (1) if he will assess the sales is recorded in CORE (Continuous Recording of potential impact on community cohesion of the Lettings and Sales of social housing in England). The withdrawal of full fee remission for students of English latest statistical release relates to 2009-10 and was published for speakers of other languages courses; [55612] by the Tenants Services Authority in September 2010. (2) whether he has made an assessment of the This shows that there were 5,481 new build homebuy potential effects on community cohesion of the (shared ownership) sales and 674 other shared ownership withdrawal of full fee remission for students of English sales by registered social landlords in 2009-10. for speakers of other languages courses who are Information on onward sales of shared ownership asylum seekers; [55613] properties by their owners is not collected centrally as (3) whether he has had recent discussions with the these are sales by individual private owners and not by Secretary of State for the Home Department on the registered providers. However, where the property is status of asylum seekers in relation to the removal of returned to the registered provider for resale, this full fee remission for students of English for speakers information is requested on CORE and an estimated of other languages. [55615] 18% of shared ownership sales were identified as this type of resale. Mr Hayes: The equality impact assessment published alongside ‘Skills for Sustainable Growth’ (November Tenant Services Authority: Government Procurement 2010) found that, at the aggregate level, there are unlikely Card to be disproportionate impacts on protected groups. A Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for separate assessment of how the changes may affect Communities and Local Government what the (a) English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) learners date of purchase, (b) gross amount, (c) level 3 line is currently being carried out by this Department, and I item detail and (d) supplier was in respect of each expect to be able to publish this before summer recess. transaction by the Tenants Service Authority using the The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Government Procurement Card in (i) 2008-09 and (ii) Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham 2009-10. [54576] (Vince Cable), has not had discussions with the Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Andrew Stunell: A table providing a breakdown of Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), specifically expenditure by the Tenant Services Authority using regarding fee remission for asylum seekers studying Government Procurement Cards for 2008-09 and 2009-10 ESOL. has been placed in the Library of the House. The data cover the periods 1 December 2008 (when Graduates: Pay the TSA commenced business) to 31 March 2009; and 1 April 2009 to 31 March 2010. Total expenditure in Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 was £31,561.00. Total expenditure in 2009-10 Business, Innovation and Skills what recent estimate he was £114,649.93. has made of the likely level of additional lifelong The bulk of the transactions are at or below £50 - 39% earnings a person can expect to receive attributable to of total in 2008-09 and 53% of total in 2009-10. (a) study for a university degree and (b) completion of The spending controls and disciplines introduced by an apprenticeship. [55918] this Government have led to the number of Government Procurement Card users and value of transactions Mr Hayes: Over their working life, the average graduate decreasing, so that there are now only 4 members of earns comfortably over £100,000 more, net of taxation staff who have a card. and in today’s valuation, compared to similar individuals with two or more A-Levels who do not go to university. This is demonstrated in reports including ‘The Return BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS to a University Education in Great Britain’ and ‘The Economic Benefits of Higher Education Qualifications’, Aviation: Treaties which can be accessed at: Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for http://ner.sagepub.com/content/193/1/75.full.pdf. Business, Innovation and Skills what progress has been http://www.rsc.org/images/EconomicBenefitsHigher made on the ratification of the Cape Town Convention EducationQualifications_tcm18-12647.pdf on International Interests in Mobile Equipment. The net lifetime benefit of completing an advanced [55476] apprenticeship is around £105,000, when compared with similar individuals whose highest qualification is at Mr Prisk: The UK is committed to its ratification, level 2. The corresponding estimate for an intermediate and issued a call for evidence last year July seeking apprenticeship is £73,000, when compared with similar stakeholder views. Following the call for evidence, BIS individuals whose highest qualification is at level 1 or officials held several meetings with industry stakeholders level 2. 151W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 152W

The estimates for apprenticeships capture the benefits We have already discussed this and other options for to the learner—in terms of higher lifetime gross earnings freeing up the control of student number allocations in today’s valuation—net of the costs of undertaking with a number of stakeholders. All proposals will be the learning, including both the resource costs to the subject to wider consultation following the publication state and the employer, and the value of production of the forthcoming Higher Education White Paper. which is foregone while learning takes place. Postal Services This is demonstrated in ‘A Cost Benefit Analysis of Apprenticeships and Other Vocational Qualifications’, which can be accessed at: Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/ Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has eOrderingDownload/RR834.pdf. made of the minimum number of access points for postal services necessary to meet the interests of the Graduates: Work Experience public throughout the UK. [55991]

Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Davey: Under the Postal Services Bill, Ofcom will Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has have a duty to carry out their functions in a way that had to promote (a) graduate employment and (b) they consider will secure the provision of sufficient support for small businesses following the end of the access points to meet the reasonable needs of users. It is Graduate Internship Scheme. [55592] expected that in fulfilling that duty, Ofcom will conduct thorough research and analysis, and will consult users Mr Willetts: I chaired the Graduate Employment in order to take their views into account. Any assessment Forum on 3 March and had a good discussion on by the Secretary of State will be informed by Ofcom’s graduate opportunities and employment. analysis. The Government have decided to provide funding to continue the Graduate Talent Pool internship vacancy Postal Services: Fees and Charges and matching service and extend it to include 2011 graduates. As well as benefitting graduates this will Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for enable employers from all sectors, particularly SMEs, to Business, Innovation and Skills if he will request Royal test the benefits of employing enthusiastic graduates in Mail to review its handling fee for low-value goods the longer term. imported from outside the EU. [56156]

Higher Education: Admissions Mr Davey: The handling fee is an operational matter for Royal Mail and Government, as shareholder, do not Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for play a role in decisions on this. Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has had My hon. Friend may be interested to note that the discussed with ministerial colleagues any potential Government’s Postal Services Bill will insert a new changes to charity law in consequence of his recent section into the Postal Services Act 2000 which, for the proposals on off-quota university places. [55648] first time, will give the postal regulator the power to Mr Willetts: The forthcoming higher education White direct postal operators on the level of handling charges. Paper will consult on options for introducing off-quota Research: Finance recruitment. Any such scheme would need to comply with the conditions that the principles of fair access must apply, there would need to be genuine additional Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for places, and there would be no reduction in entrance Business, Innovation and Skills what monitoring his standards. Therefore it is clearly not the intention that, Department undertakes of the level of investment in for example, independent schools should be able to (a) research and development and (b) new sponsor places for their own pupils and after consultation technologies by the (i) business sector and (ii) regions we will ensure that there is a framework in place to and nations of the UK. [55847] prevent this. Mr Willetts: The Office of National Statistics (ONS) On the basis of this consultation we will consider the collects figures on Business Expenditure on Research legal implications of subsequent proposals for off-quota and Development (BERD) within the UK. The most recruitment and look to introduce any necessary powers recent data, published in December 2010, showed or changes to existing laws, subject to Parliament, during £15.6 billion was spent in 2009 on research and development 2012. (R&D) performed within UK businesses. Total R&D Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for expenditure in 2009 represented 1.1% of GDP, in line Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions with recent years. The regional breakdown for business he has had with (a) universities, (b) charities and (c) R&D in 2009 is as follows: businesses on off-quota university places; and if he will BERD, 2009 make a statement. [55814] £ million UK 15,624 Mr Willetts [holding answer 16 May 2011]: The England 14,361 purpose of considering off-quota proposals is to look at North east 313 how we might make it easier for employers and charities North west 2,050 to sponsor students at universities, and allow institutions Yorkshire and Humber 452 to expand courses where employers or charities cover East midlands 984 the costs of additional students. 153W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 154W

BERD, 2009 Trade Promotion £ million Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for West midlands 873 Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions East of England 3,898 his Department has had with (a) Commonwealth London 926 countries and (b) other non-EU countries on trade South east 3,598 promotion. [55238] South west 1,267 Wales 321 Mr Prisk: The Government’s lead Department for Scotland 644 trade promotion is UK Trade and Investment (UKTI), Northern Ireland 297 a joint Department of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS), and the Foreign and Space Technology: Libya Commonwealth Office (FCO). UKTI focuses its resources on helping British companies Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for to succeed in the markets where there is greatest demand Business, Innovation and Skills for what purposes an from business for UKTI services, reflecting actual and export licence was granted to Libya for spacecraft; potential opportunities in these markets. It has a presence what goods have been supplied under this licence; and in 96 markets around the world and this includes whether this licence remains in force. [52151] 20 Commonwealth countries which are trading partners for the UK, as well as a number of non-EU member Mr Prisk: This export licence was for export of an state countries. Where there is no UKTI presence, FCO Earth observation satellite for remote sensing applications. provides diplomatic support for British companies. No goods have been supplied under this licence. The It is not possible to provide information on all the licence was revoked on 24 March 2011. interactions that UKTI has had with the countries where it has a presence, as these are continuing and Students: Fees and Charges ongoing. There have been some notable, high profile, senior ministerial visits to target markets over the last Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for year; participants have included the Prime Minister, the Business, Innovation and Skills whether there are Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth circumstances in which a university may vary the Affairs, the right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) published fees for a course after September 2012. (Mr Hague), and the Secretary of State for Business, [54316] Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Mr Willetts [holding answer 12 May 2011]: Individual Twickenham (Vince Cable), and my noble Friend the institutions determine their tuition charges including Minister for Trade and Investment, Lord Green of any discounts or waivers as a contribution to the National Hurstpierpoint, among others. Markets visited with Scholarship Programme or as part of a broader institutional ministerial delegations have included China, India, Brazil, package of financial support to promote access to Russia, the middle east and Egypt. higher education. Based on HM Revenue and Customs Overseas Trade Any institution that considers altering its previously Statistics, UK exports of goods to Commonwealth advertised prices or support package will need to consider countries in 2010 were worth some £23.9 billion and the wider implications of such change, not least if it imports £31.4 billion. UK exports of goods to non-EU, would be unfair on applicants who may have already non-Commonwealth countries in 2010 were worth some accepted a higher charge or different support package £112.0 billion and imports £161.3 billion. for the same course. The director of Fair Access has Separately, UKTI’s new Strategy, Britain Open for indicated that in such circumstances he would expect Business, sets out plans to provide practical support to that institutions will want to offer the same financial exporters and inward investors over the next five years. package to all eligible applicants, including students Working with the FCO, UKTI has identified 19 high- who have already accepted an offer, not just those who priority markets where they will intensify efforts and applied late in the cycle. shift further resource to help UK companies seize opportunities. The full list of these markets is: Brazil, Tobacco: Retail Trade China, Colombia, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Mexico, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Africa, South Korea, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, United Business, Innovation and Skills if he will request the Arab Emirates, and Vietnam. We will also target Hong Office of Fair Trading to investigate the implications Kong both as a market in its own right and as a for (a) competition between companies and (b) the springboard into the mainland China market. retail tobacco market of any introduction of plain packaging for tobacco products. [55082] HOME DEPARTMENT Mr Davey: The Government have announced that Arrest Warrants they will look at the plain packaging of tobacco products in Healthy Lives, Healthy People: A Tobacco Control Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State Plan for England and have committed to explore fully for the Home Department how long on average a the competition, trade and legal implications and other subject of a request for surrender under a European issues arising from plain packaging. Department of Arrest Warrant spent on remand before surrender in Health will consult by the end of 2011 on options to each year since the inception of the warrant; and what reduce the promotional impact of tobacco packaging, the average length of time remaining on the sentence at including consultation on a draft impact assessment. the date of surrender was in each such year. [55616] 155W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 156W

Damian Green [holding answer 13 May 2011]: There Asylum: Detainees is no Home Office involvement in the operation of the European Arrest Warrant (EAW). This is a judicial Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for process issued for the purposes of conducting a criminal the Home Department how many persons under the prosecution against someone accused of an offence or age of 18 are detained awaiting the outcome of asylum for enforcing a term of imprisonment, where the person applications. [55439] sought has been convicted of an offence. Damian Green: As of 7 May 2011 there were no The Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) and individuals under the age of 18 detained by the UK the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (for Border Agency in immigration removal centres. Scotland) are the designated authorities for processing Children: Protection EAWs in the UK. SOCA does not routinely store this information. To Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for the answer this question, a manual examination of Home Department if she will assess the merits of approximately 1,700 files (the total number of people ratifying and implementing the Council of Europe surrendered by the UK under the EAW since 2004) Convention on the Protection of Children against would be required, which would incur disproportionate Sexual Exploitation and Sexual Abuse. [55800] cost. James Brokenshire: Child sexual exploitation is an Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State appalling crime. It is a form of child sexual abuse and for the Home Department what information her tackling it is an absolute priority for the Government. Department holds on the average number of occasions In May 2008, the UK signed the Council of Europe’s the subject of a request for surrender under a European Convention on the Protection of Children from Sexual arrest warrant has entered and left the requesting Exploitation and Abuse. The Convention sets standards member state between the date of the alleged offence to ensure that countries criminalise the sexual exploitation and the date of the request in each year since the and abuse of children and adopt similar standards of inception of the warrant. [55617] investigation and prosecution of these crimes. Officials across a number of Government Departments are currently Damian Green [holding answer 13 May 2011]: The considering the steps that would be required to ratify Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) does not the Council of Europe Convention. hold the relevant information to answer this question. Departmental Billing Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for the for the Home Department how many requests for Home Department how many invoices her Department surrender of an individual under a European Arrest received in respect of goods or services supplied by tier Warrant her Department has received in each year 1 suppliers between 1 May 2010 and 1 April 2011; and since its inception. [55618] how many of those invoices were not paid within the period of time specified in the Government’s Fair Damian Green [holding answer 13 May 2011]: The Payment guidance. [55864] following table shows the number of European Arrest Warrant (EAW)requests received by the Serious Organised Damian Green: The Department received a total of Crime Agency (SOCA) each year since the inception of 63,893 compliant invoices on five-day and 30-day terms the EAW in 2004. in respect of goods or services supplied between 1 May 2010 and 1 April 2011. Of this number, a total of 176 EAW requests received by the UK invoices on 30-day terms were not paid within the period of time specified in the Government’s Fair Payment 2010 (1 January 2010 to 31 March 1,080 2010) guidance. 2009 4,004 Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2008 3,307 Home Department what mechanism her Department 2007 2,280 has established to ensure its payments are passed 2006 5,020 through the supply chain to each tier in accordance 2005 5,986 with the last date for payment defined in the 2004 1,865 Government’s Fair Payment guidance. [55887]

Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State Damian Green: The Department expects suppliers to for the Home Department what the average length of pass the benefits of prompt payment down the supply time to elapse between the date of an alleged offence chain. An on-line questionnaire with our suppliers is and the receipt of a request for surrender in respect of used to monitor compliance. that offence under the European Arrest Warrant by her Departmental Data Protection Department was in each of the last three years. [55619] Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Damian Green [holding answer 13 May 2011]: The the Home Department how many contracts her Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA) does not Department holds which allow contractors to store routinely store this information. To answer this question personal data of UK citizens overseas; to which a manual examination of over 23,500 files (the total contracts this applies; in which countries the data for number of European Arrest Warrants SOCA has received each such contract is held; and how many people have since 1 January 2004) would be required, which would their data stored overseas under each such contract. incur disproportionate cost. [55742] 157W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 158W

Damian Green: The Home Department, inclusive of confident that the Home Office will be able to achieve its Executive agencies, holds just one contract where the priorities and carry out the functions set out in the personal data of UK citizens is stored overseas. The Business Plan, while making overall savings of 23% in contract is with Carlson Wagonlit Travel and a total of real terms by 2014-15, in line with the spending review 13,975 personal details are stored for travel booking settlement. purposes across the UK, Spain, Germany and USA. Departmental Pay Domestic Violence: Advisory Services

Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department what additional pay she plans to the Home Department how much funding her provide to officials in her Department in the period Department has allocated in respect of independent from 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2013 to reflect (a) domestic violence advisers in (a) each financial year seniority, (b) promotion and (c) performance. [55411] for which such funding has been available and (b) financial year 2011-12 to date. [55900] Damian Green: No other changes are planned to Home Office pay arrangements this year other than Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 16 May 2011]: those given in the Government’s pay freeze policy, We have allocated funding for independent domestic which will continue to apply in 2011-12. violence advisers (IDVAs) in the following financial Payments made in 2012-13 will continue to be subject years: to affordability criteria and Government public sector In 2005-06: funding of £1 million to support the delivery of pay policy at that time. specialist domestic violence courts—this would have included funding IDVAs; Departmental Public Transport In 2006-07: funding of £2 million for IDVAs and independent sexual violence advisers; Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for the In 2008-09 and 2009-10: funding was allocated to Government Home Department on what date (a) she and (b) each offices to support the Government response to tackle domestic and sexual violence. This would have included funding for IDVAs other Minister in her Department last travelled by (i) but we do not have a breakdown of the specific amount. London Underground and (ii) public bus services on government business; how many times (A) she and (B) In 2010-11: we allocated £2.3 million for IDVAsand in 2011-12 we will allocate £2.5 million. each other Minister in her Department has travelled by each such form of transport on government business since May 2010; and if she will make a statement. Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for [50085] the Home Department how many applications for funding for independent domestic violence advisers (a) Damian Green: The Department holds the following her Department has received and (b) have been information on ministerial travel by these forms of granted in financial year 2011-12 to date. [55902] public transport: Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 16 May 2011]: Ministers in the Home Department last travelled by We received over 230 applications for independent domestic London Underground on Home Office business on the violence adviser (IDVA) funding from over 200 following occasions: organisations (statutory and voluntary). Lynne Featherstone—9 November 2010 We have granted funding towards 144 posts (statutory James Brokenshire—16 December 2010 and voluntary) in the financial year 2011-12. Damian Green—9 February 2011 Nick Herbert—6 April 2011 Driving Offences No Ministers in the Home Department have travelled by public bus on official Home Office business. Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the To obtain the total number of times these Ministers Home Department how many drivers have been (a) have travelled by London Underground on Home Office stopped by police on suspicion of, (b) charged with, business could be obtained only at disproportionate (c) convicted of, (d) fined for and (e) cautioned for an cost. offence of driving while using a mobile telephone in Departmental Responsibilities each police force area in each year since the prohibition came into force. [53494] Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether her Department plans James Brokenshire: There were 125,516 fixed penalty to cease to fund any of its functions over the period of notices issued by the 43 police forces of England and the comprehensive spending review. [55184] Wales for the use of handheld mobile phone while driving in 2009 compared with 115,926 in 2008. Damian Green: The Home Office Business Plan sets A breakdown by police force area for 2009 can be out the Department’s structural reform priorities over found on page 67, table 3.01, column 4 of the Home the four years of the spending review, including changes Office Statistical Bulletin “Police Powers and Procedures to certain functions. In particular, the Department will 2009/10”. The publication is available in the Library of no longer impose unnecessary burdens and the House and at the weblink provided as follows: bureaucracy on the police or local partners, or intrude http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- disproportionately on civil liberties and freedoms. I am statistics/research-statistics/police-research/hosb0711/ 159W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 160W

A breakdown by police force area for 2008 can be Further information is available in the “Tackling found on page 54, table 3.01, column four of the Home Tobacco Smuggling” strategy, launched on 27 April Office Statistical Bulletin “Police Powers and Procedures 2011 and available at: 2008/09”. The publication is available in the Library of http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/news/tackling-tobacco.htm the House and at the weblink provided as follows: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/ Illegal Immigrants rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0610.pdf Historical data, going back to 2003 can be found on Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for the row 4, page 61, table 3b of the same publication. Home Department what assessment she has made of the implications for her Department’s policies of the Cautions, charges and convictions data are dealt with failure to detain or deport Mohammed Smoured. by the Ministry of Justice in their ″Criminal Statistics″ publication, copies of which are available from the [55267] Library of the House and the weblink as follows: Damian Green: Mohammed Smoured is a serious http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and- criminal and the UK Border Agency vigorously pursued data/criminal-justice/criminal-annual.htm his deportation from the UK. He was released from immigration detention by the courts despite strong English Language: Education objections from the UK Border Agency. The internal review that followed this case demonstrated Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for a need to tighten up processes. Lessons have been the Home Department whether she has had recent learned and the UK Border Agency has since rolled out discussions with the Secretary of State for Business, new training programmes and guidance to support case Innovation and Skills on the removal of full fee workers in dealing with future cases in a more timely remission for students of English for Speakers of Other and efficient way. Languages. [55614] Immigrants Damian Green: My officials have had discussions with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for the about provision for students of English for Speakers of Home Department what plans she has to assess the (a) Other Languages (ESOL). A separate assessment of effect on and (b) contribution to (i) health services, (ii) how the changes from full funding for ESOL courses education services and (iii) other services of migrants. may affect ESOL learners is currently being carried out [55988] by Department of Business, Innovation and Skills who expect to be able to publish this before summer recess. Damian Green: I have tasked the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) to research the labour market, social Entry Clearances: Balkans and public service impacts of non-EEA migration; and to advise on the use of such evidence in cost-benefit Greg Hands: To ask the Secretary of State for the analyses of migration and policy decisions. This will Home Department when she plans to announce the provide evidence at the national level. Results from this results of the review of the visa regime for Serbian and work are expected in November 2011. Macedonian nationals visiting the UK. [56188] In addition I have asked Home Office analysts to scope the feasibility of identifying and measuring the Damian Green: We are currently reviewing plans for social impacts of migration at the local level. We will the next visa waiver test. We will consider any changes work with local authorities and other local services to to the visitor visa regimes in Serbia and Macedonia as gain a better understanding of the issues and challenges part of that wider process. We have no plans to make facing public sector providers in terms of how they any changes to the existing visa regimes before then. might identify different types of migrants and measure both their cost on public services and their contribution Fines: Tobacco to the local community. This research will be undertaken over the course of 2011-12. David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Missing Persons the Home Department how many people have been fined for bringing in excess amounts of tobacco at UK Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for the ports of entry in the last 12 months. [52912] Home Department whether she plans to implement the recommendations of the Missing Persons Taskforce; Justine Greening: I have been asked to reply. and if she will make a statement. [55851] Although no records are available for the number of people fined for bringing in excess tobacco at British James Brokenshire: The Home Office has carried out points of entry, a total of 39,588 seizures of cigarette an assessment of the 22 recommendations in the Missing and hand rolling tobacco were made in 2010-11. Taskforce Review. Seven have already been delivered, Travellers who import for illicit resale in the UK are action is under way on a further 10 and the remainder evading UK duty. Where such offences occur, the goods are subject to further consideration. We are working will be liable to forfeiture and the person involved may with our counterparts in other Government Departments be liable for the duty evaded, a penalty of up to 100% of to consider what further action is needed in this important the potential lost revenue, and possibly further criminal area, taking account of other relevant developments sanctions. including, for example, the Munro Review of Child 161W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 162W

Protection and the transfer of responsibility for missing exploit children and to increase their mutual knowledge children from the National Policing Improvement Agency of child sexual abuse cases, on both a practitioner and (NPIA) to Child Exploitation and Online Protection strategic management level. (CEOP). The CPS considers every such case on its individual merits and applies the two-stage Full Code Test set out Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for the in the Code for Crown Prosecutors when deciding whether Home Department what her policy is on the role of the to prosecute. police in the investigation of missing persons. [55852] Offenders: Deportation James Brokenshire: The police play an important role with regards to missing persons and are the lead agency Greg Hands: To ask the Secretary of State for the in investigating missing persons incidents. Home Department what recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on the deportation of Identifying and ensuring the safest return possible for foreign national prisoners who are wanted for terrorist children and adults who go missing forms part of the offences abroad. [55679] police service’s child protection and wider safeguarding role. Damian Green: Ministers have not had any recent discussions on the deportation of foreign national prisoners Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for the who are wanted for terrorist offences abroad. However, Home Department what responsibility the proposed officials within the Home Office and Ministry of Justice National Crime Agency will have for missing persons. are in regular contact. [55853] Sexual Offences: EU Action James Brokenshire: On 10 May the Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), announced that Home Department what discussions she had had with the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (CEOP) her European counterparts on the progress of will operate as part of the new National Crime Agency Europol’s Project Haven to detect and disrupt (NCA) and it has previously been agreed that this role European travelling sex offenders. [55919] will include responsibility for missing children services. James Brokenshire: Action on combating child sex This move will ensure that CEOP will be better positioned offences is a priority both domestically and at EU level. than ever before to tackle child sexual exploitation, The Government have opted into the draft EU directive tackle those who seek to harm children, and develop its on combating the sexual abuse and sexual exploitation vital work educating children and their carers on how to of children and child pornography which will set minimum protect themselves. standards for combating child sex offences across the Work is continuing to arrange the transfer of EU. In addition, this month the Secretary of State for responsibility for missing children’s services from the the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) to CEOP. for Maidenhead (Mrs May), has had discussions with In turn, work is progressing to consider where the Director of Europol on the issue of travelling sex responsibilities for missing adults services should sit in offenders to consider what further co-ordinated action the future. might be taken at EU level. Offences against Children I consider that the lessons learned from the initial phases of Project Haven were valuable, and the recommendations arising out of this and ongoing actions Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for the will be carried forward in the UK by the relevant bodies Home Department what discussions she plans to have in conjunction with Europol. with the Director of Public Prosecution on efforts to ensure that the Crown Prosecution Service improves its Child protection is a priority for this Government knowledge and practice in prosecuting cases of child and will be further strengthened when the Child sexual abuse and exploitation committed overseas. Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) becomes a core part of the National Crime Agency. [55920] Stop and Search James Brokenshire: The Government takes sexual offences committed against children very seriously.Section Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the 72 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (as amended by the Home Department how many searches of (a) persons Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008) extends and (b) vehicles under section 60 of the Criminal extra territorial jurisdiction in relation to some sex Justice and Public Order Act 1994 were carried out by offences committed against children whilst abroad by each Metropolitan Police division in each of the last United Kingdom nationals and in cases involving dual five years; and how many arrests for (i) possession of criminality by United Kingdom residents. However it offensive weapons and (ii) other offences were made in remains the case that such offences are best prosecuted each division as a result in each such year. [53510] where they occur. To this end the Child Exploitation and Online Protection centre (CEOP) through the work Nick Herbert: Data for the Metropolitan police on of their UK and Overseas Tracker Teams and in the use of this power is published in the Home Office conjunction with UK police forces and overseas law Statistical Bulletin “Police Powers and Procedures”. enforcement agencies, engages with the Crown Prosecution Data are unavailable at a level below police force Service (CPS) to pursue tactical options in respect of area. Current and previous copies of these publications UK nationals who travel overseas and abuse and/or are available from the Library of the House. 163W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 164W

LEADER OF THE HOUSE HEALTH

Cardiovascular System Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Maria Eagle: To ask the Leader of the House how (1) what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of much his office spent on special advisers’ travel by (a) national and local co-ordination in cardiovascular Government car, (b) private hire car, (c) train, (d) services to ensure integrated care for patients who have bus, (e) commercial aircraft and (f) private aircraft an acute myocardial infarction; [55470] since May 2010. [56109] (2) what recent assessment he has made of the provision of cardiovascular services in the NHS; and if Sir George Young: The Office of the Leader of the he will make a statement; [55471] House of Commons has not spent any money on the travel costs of my special adviser. (3) whether he has any plans to revise guidelines on the management of cardiovascular disease and its risk factors as part of NHS reforms. [55490] Electronic Government: Petitions Mr Simon Burns: It is for local national health service commissioners to ensure that there is integrated care Diana Johnson: To ask the Leader of the House available for patients who have an acute myocardial when he expects it to be possible to send an online infarction. They need to assess their local population petition to the Prime Minister via the Directgov needs to determine the range and level of service provision website. [55600] required in their area. There is a range of information publicly available to Sir George Young: The Government will move the assist NHS commissioners to understand their local online petition system from the No. 10 website to the population needs and benchmark local services, including: DirectGov portal before the summer recess, and I will Local Cardiovascular Profiles—The South East Public Health make a statement to the House. Observatory has published cardiovascular profiles at regional and primary care trust level. These are intended to inform commissioning and planning decisions and enable commissioners to target resources EU Law: Parliamentary Scrutiny most effectively to tackle cardiovascular disease and improve the health of local communities. They can be found at: Miss McIntosh: To ask the Leader of the House if he www.sepho.org.uk/CVDprofiles.aspx will (a) review the powers of the House of Commons The Central Cardiac Audit Database offers information to to scrutinise EU Directives and (b) bring forward help health professionals and commissioners to continually measure proposals to allow hon. Members to propose and improve care by comparing their services to specific standards and national trends. Information about this can be found at: amendments to the draft regulations implementing EU www.ic.nhs.uk/services/national-clinical-audit-support- Directives. [55609] programme-ncasp/heart-disease Sir George Young: As the Minister for Europe, my The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence right hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (NICE) has issued guidance to the NHS on the (Mr Lidington), noted in a written ministerial statement management of a number of conditions associated with on 20 January 2011, Official Report, columns 51-52WS, cardiovascular disease. NICE routinely reviews its published the Government are keen to explore new ways of guidance. A NICE Quality Standard on heart failure is scrutinising EU issues. He is in discussions with the expected to be published in June 2011. European Scrutiny Committee and the House of Lords Further information about NICE Quality Standards EU Select Committee about this. It is for Parliament to is available on the institute’s website at: decide how it wants to take this forward with us. www.nice.org.uk/aboutnice/qualitystandards/ In the meantime, the Government intend to continue qualitystandards.jsp discussions with the European Scrutiny Committee on its terms of reference and the terms of the House’s Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Scrutiny Reserve Resolution. Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department plans to take to Legal Aid: Reform ensure provision of specialist services for myalgic encephalomyelitis and chronic fatigue syndrome is Alun Cairns: To ask the Leader of the House what maintained. [56165] timetable he has set for the passage of his proposed legislation to reform legal aid. [55993] Paul Burstow: Primary care professionals coordinate the services that patients receive, helping them to navigate Sir George Young: The Government are committed the system and ensure they get the best care. For this to reforming the legal aid system to provide for a more reason, they are best placed to coordinate those aspects efficient and sustainable scheme, in order to preserve of commissioning of care that will most benefit from the help available to those in our society who need it their clinical insight and expertise, while involving all most. The Government will bring forward legislation other clinical professionals who are also part of any on their proposals in due course. pathway of care. 165W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 166W

Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for funding withdrawn in the last 12 months; how many Health what representations he has received on the had such funding reinstated on appeal; and if he will proposed closure of the specialist inpatient service for make a statement; [55640] myalgic encephalomyelitis and chronic fatigue (3) if he will assess the potential effects on the syndrome at Queen’s hospital, Romford; and if he will National Framework for NHS Continuing Healthcare make a statement. [56166] of the proposed reforms to the NHS; and if he will make a statement. [55641] Paul Burstow: The Department has received numerous representations on the proposed closure of the specialist Paul Burstow: Information on the number of people inpatient service for myalgic encephalomyelitis (ME) in receipt of continuing health care, in December 2010, and chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) at Queen’s hospital, broken down by primary care trust (PCT) is given in the Romford. It is for the local national health service to following table. provide services which best serve the needs of its local population. 2010-11, quarter 3 Organisation The Department is not prescriptive about the type of code Organisation name Number services that should be provided by the local NHS for CFS/ME patients, however trusts must adhere to the 5D7 Newcastle PCT 157 National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence 5D8 North Tyneside PCT 183 guidelines: 5D9 Hartlepool PCT 116 5E1 North Tees PCT 294 Every person diagnosed with CFS/ME should be 5J9 Darlington PCT 250 offered: 5KF Gateshead PCT 197 information about the illness 5KG South Tyneside PCT 165 acceptance and understanding 5KL Sunderland Teaching PCT 512 assistance negotiating the healthcare, benefits and social care 5KM Middlesbrough PCT 105 systems 5ND County Durham PCT 806 assistance with occupational activities including work and 5QR Redcar and Cleveland PCT 60 education if appropriate TAC Northumberland Care Trust 566 5CC/TAP Blackburn and Darwen PCT/ 54 An individualised management plan should be developed Teaching Care Plus with the person with CFS/ME, and their carers if 5F5 Salford PCT 309 appropriate. The plan should be reviewed and changes 5F7 Stockport PCT 263 documented at each contact. It should include: 5HG Ashton, Leigh and Wigan PCT 440 relevant symptoms and history 5HP Blackpool PCT 76 plans for care and treatment, including managing setbacks/relapses 5HQ Bolton PCT 337 information and support needs 5J2 Warrington PCT 182 any education, training or employment support needs 5J4 Knowsley PCT 220 5J5 Oldham PCT 268 details of the healthcare professionals involved in care and their contact details. 5JX Bury PCT 98 5LH Tameside and Glossop PCT 185 Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Training 5NE Cumbria PCT 457 5NF North Lancashire PCT 455 Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 5NG Central Lancashire PCT 378 if he will bring forward proposals to ensure that 5NH East Lancashire Teaching PCT 236 training in myalgic encephalomyelitis is included in all 5NJ Sefton PCT 199 pre and post-registration training of healthcare 5NK Wirral PCT 249 professionals. [56163] 5NL Liverpool PCT 437 5NM Halton and St Helens PCT 398 Anne Milton: The content and standard of healthcare 5NN Western Cheshire PCT 147 training is the responsibility of the independent regulatory 5NP Central and Eastern Cheshire 376 PCT bodies. 5NQ Heywood, Middleton and 127 Through their role as the custodians of quality standards Rochdale PCT in education and practice, these organisations are committed 5NR Trafford PCT 98 to ensuring high quality patient care delivered by high 5NT Manchester PCT 419 quality health professionals and that healthcare 5EF North Lincolnshire PCT 174 professionals are equipped with the knowledge, skills 5H8 Rotherham PCT 287 and behaviours required to deal with the problems and 5J6 Calderdale PCT 257 conditions they will encounter in practice. 5JE Barnsley PCT 307 5N1 Leeds PCT 835 Continuing Care 5N2 Kirklees PCT 478 5N3 Wakefield District PCT 206 Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 5N4 Sheffield PCT 1,255 (1) how many people in each primary care trust were in 5N5 Doncaster PCT 425 receipt of NHS Continuing Healthcare funding in 5NV North Yorkshire and York 1,063 2010; and if he will make a statement; [55639] PCT 5NW East Riding of Yorkshire PCT 206 (2) how many people in receipt of NHS Continuing 5NX Hull Teaching PCT 399 Healthcare in each primary care trust have had such 167W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 168W

2010-11, quarter 3 2010-11, quarter 3 Organisation Organisation code Organisation name Number code Organisation name Number

5NY Bradford and Airedale 528 5K5 Brent Teaching PCT 242 Teaching PCT 5K6 Harrow PCT 196 TAN North East Lincolnshire Care 222 5K7 Camden PCT 238 Trust Plus 5K8 Islington PCT 125 5EM Nottingham City PCT 175 5K9 Croydon PCT 372 5ET Bassetlaw PCT 69 5LA Kensington and Chelsea PCT 215 5N6 Derbyshire County PCT 810 5LC Westminster PCT 169 5N7 Derby City PCT 222 5LD Lambeth PCT 227 5N8 Nottinghamshire County 557 Teaching PCT 5LE Southwark PCT 156 5N9 Lincolnshire Teaching PCT 869 5LF Lewisham PCT 133 5PA Leicestershire County and 764 5LG Wandsworth PCT 148 Rutland PCT 5M6 Richmond and Twickenham 95 5PC Leicester City PCT 373 PCT 5PD Northamptonshire Teaching 716 5M7 Sutton and Merton PCT 333 PCT 5NA Redbridge PCT 308 5CN Herefordshire PCT 307 5NC Waltham Forest PCT 307 5M1 South Birmingham PCT 341 TAK Bexley Care Trust 169 5M2 Shropshire County PCT 447 5L3 Medway PCT 133 5M3 Walsall Teaching PCT 337 5LQ Brighton and Hove City PCT 129 5MD Coventry Teaching PCT 384 5P5 Surrey PCT 935 5MK Telford and Wrekin PCT 209 5P6 West Sussex PCT 626 5MV Wolverhampton City PCT 354 5MX Heart of Birmingham Teaching 189 5P7 East Sussex Downs and Weald 420 PCT PCT 5PE Dudley PCT 169 5P8 Hastings and Rother PCT 101 5PF Sandwell PCT 137 5P9 West Kent PCT 539 5PG Birmingham East and North 563 5QA Eastern and Coastal Kent PCT 995 PCT 5CQ Milton Keynes PCT 121 5PH North Staffordshire PCT 249 5FE Portsmouth City Teaching PCT 270 5PJ Stoke on Trent PCT 231 5L1 Southampton City PCT 201 5PK South Staffordshire PCT 468 5QC Hampshire PCT 857 5PL Worcestershire PCT 411 5QD Buckinghamshire PCT 552 5PM Warwickshire PCT 753 5QE Oxfordshire PCT 290 TAM Solihull Care Trust 315 5QF Berkshire West PCT 164 5GC Luton PCT 91 5QG Berkshire East PCT 333 5P1 South East Essex PCT 420 5QT Isle of Wight NHS PCT 222 5P2 Bedfordshire PCT 155 5A3 South Gloucestershire PCT 230 5PN Peterborough PCT 255 5F1 Plymouth Teaching PCT 470 5PP Cambridgeshire PCT 392 5FL Bath and North East Somerset 193 5PQ Norfolk PCT 658 PCT 5PR Great Yarmouth and Waveney 311 PCT 5K3 Swindon PCT 129 5PT Suffolk PCT 737 5M8 North Somerset PCT 211 5PV West Essex PCT 258 5QH Gloucestershire PCT 623 5PW North East Essex PCT 145 5QJ Bristol PCT 368 5PX Mid Essex PCT 110 5QK Wiltshire PCT 490 5PY South West Essex PCT 452 5QL Somerset PCT 600 5QV Hertfordshire PCT 743 5QM Dorset PCT 426 5A4 Havering PCT 219 5QN Bournemouth and Poole PCT 318 5A5 Kingston PCT 175 5QP Cornwall and Isles of Scilly 978 5A7 Bromley PCT 335 PCT 5A8 Greenwich Teaching PCT 173 5QQ Devon PCT 864 5A9 Barnet PCT 332 TAL Torbay Care Trust 184 5AT Hillingdon PCT 234 5C1 Enfield PCT 267 5C2 Barking and Dagenham PCT 370 Information on the number of people in receipt of continuing health care who have had their funding 5C3 City and Hackney Teaching 150 PCT withdrawn is not collected centrally. 5C4 Tower Hamlets PCT 212 It is anticipated that there will be no changes to the 5C5 Newham PCT 290 sections of the framework covering the eligibility criteria 5C9 Haringey Teaching PCT 353 for continuing health care. However, the sections covering 5H1 Hammersmith and Fulham 125 PCT the statutory powers of primary care trusts and strategic 5HX Ealing PCT 320 health authorities will be rewritten to reflect the proposed reforms which will move these powers to general practitioner 5HY Hounslow PCT 204 consortia and the NHS Commissioning Board respectively. 169W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 170W

Departmental Pay Mr Simon Burns: Recent figures for disease-specific research and development (R and D) spend reflect a Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for more transparent and accurate method for assessing Health what additional pay he plans to provide to this expenditure. officials in his Department in the period from 1 April Prior to the establishment of the National Institute 2011 to 31 March 2013 to reflect (a) seniority, (b) for Health Research (NIHR) in April 2006, the main promotion and (c) performance. [55414] part of the Department’s total health expenditure was devolved to and managed by national health service Mr Simon Burns: For the period in question, the only organisations. From April 2006 to March 2009, transitional officials in the Department eligible for base pay increases research funding was allocated to these organisations at are those earning under £21,000. The Department’s pay reducing levels. At the same time, an increasing amount systems are performance-related and do not reward of NHS research funding was awarded competitively staff for ″seniority″. through new NIHR programmes and schemes. The The provision of pay for promotion will depend on NHS organisations reported on their use of these allocations the number of promotions which take place in the in annual R and D reports, and each report included period in question, which is difficult to predict. Staff figures for research spend in a range of disease areas. would normally receive a 10% pay uplift following These figures have been included in any estimates made promotion to the next grade. The Department usually by the Department of total annual research spend in operates promotion gateways or boards, but these are these disease areas up to 2008-09. currently suspended while the Department works through The Department is increasing its routine monitoring the implications of its transition programme. of NIHR expenditure across all therapeutic areas. These promotions will be strictly controlled and are Electronic Cigarettes likely to be few in number in the current climate. Numbers of promotions cannot be predicted in advance as they are dependent on contingent business needs. The Mr Nuttall: To ask the Secretary of State for Health arrangements for non-consolidated performance-related what recent assessment his Department has made of pay for non-senior civil service staff are subject to the the use of e-cigarettes. [55636] Treasury’s annual civil service pay guidance. The overall ‘pot’ of money set aside for this will not increase in Anne Milton: In March 2011, the Medicines and 2011-12 nor in 2012-13. Non-consolidated performance- Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) related pay for senior civil service (SCS) staff is determined published the Government’s response to the consultation within a framework set by the Cabinet Office. The on the regulation of nicotine-containing products, which overall ‘pot’ for such awards will decrease in 2011-12. includes e-cigarettes. The MHRA also announced that it will co-ordinate a period of further scientific and The two-year pay freeze for the SCS started in April market research to inform decisions about the regulation 2010 and for the rest of the Department’s civil servants of nicotine-containing products. (the integrated structure, i.e. grades administrative officer to grade 6) this freeze will start in August 2011. Fluoride: Drinking Water Diseases: Health Services Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health which local authorities require the fluoridation Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for of their local water supply. [55762] Health whether his proposed NHS Commissioning Board will be responsible for commissioning services Anne Milton: Although the Health and Social Care for rare diseases. [55935] Bill proposes that responsibility for consultations on proposals for fluoridation schemes should transfer to Mr Simon Burns: The Health and Social Care Bill local authorities, currently strategic health authorities sets out the intention for the NHS Commissioning (SHAs) are responsible for contracting with water Board to take responsibility for the commissioning of companies to fluoridate water supplies. Therefore, the specialised services for very rare conditions. These specialised information held centrally on which areas are fluoridated services are currently commissioned at both a national is by SHA/primary care trust (PCT) as in the following and regional level. table:

Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Percentage of population with Health what the cost to the NHS was of the treatment SHA/PCT fluoridated water supply of rare diseases in each of the last five years; and if he East of England SHA will make a statement. [55936] Bedford PCT 100 Mr Simon Burns: This information is not collected centrally by the Department. West Midlands SHA Redditch and Bromsgrove PCT 91 Diseases: Research North Warwickshire PCT 100 South Warwickshire PCT 68 Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Rugby PCT 100 Health whether his Department has made changes to South Worcestershire PCT 32 the methodology for assessing disease-specific research Coventry PCT 85 and development spending in the last five years. [55436] Castle and Beacon PCT 100 171W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 172W

Health Services: Prisoners Percentage of population with SHA/PCT fluoridated water supply Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Dudley South PCT 61 what assessment he has made of the effects on the South Birmingham PCT 100 provision of health services to prisoners of the Solihull PCT 100 implementation of proposed reforms to commissioning Wednesbury and West Bromwich 100 PCT in the NHS. [55512] North Birmingham PCT 100 Rowley Regis and Tipton PCT 100 Paul Burstow: The Government are currently pausing, Wolverhampton City PCT 100 listening and reflecting to improve plans regarding the Walsall Area PCT 100 Health and Social Care Bill. The Bill proposes that the Oldbury and Smethwick PCT 100 NHS Commissioning Board will bring about considerable East Birmingham PCT 100 reform to the national health service and have a direct Heart of Birmingham PCT 100 impact as to how services for the offender population Cannock Chase PCT 100 may be delivered and received in future. East Staffordshire PCT 100 Offenders are entitled to expect, and receive, the same South West Staffordshire PCT 53 quality of treatments and services from the NHS as Burntwood, Lichfield and 100 anyone else. The NHS is—and must remain—about Tamworth PCT equitable service provision for all citizens, not least offenders. East Midlands SHA We need robust offender heath and criminal justice West Lincolnshire PCT 100 programmes in place. The public expects this and improved Bassetlaw PCT 100 health and well-being outcomes for offenders will come Ashfield PCT 100 from reducing health inequalities and reoffending through Mansfield PCT 100 prevention, early intervention and having effective diversion from custody services. Yorkshire and the Humber SHA North Lincolnshire PCT 75 Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many prisoners have been granted access to

North East SHA private healthcare services paid from (a) private means and (b) the public purse in each of the last five years. North Tyneside PCT 150+50 [55547] Gateshead PCT 2100 Newcastle PCT 100 Paul Burstow: The Department does not collect this Hartlepool PCT 100 information. The commissioning of prison healthcare transferred North West SHA from the Prison Service to the national health service in Central Cheshire PCT 52 2006. It is the responsibility of local NHS primary care West Cumbria PCX 100 trusts to commission and provide services for their 1 Variable low. offender population. 2 Virtually. General Practitioners Heart Diseases: Children Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what plans he has for the future of geographical George Eustice: To ask the Secretary of State for boundaries determining eligibility for GP registration Health what estimate his Department has made of the following the implementation of his plans for GP cost to the public purse of the Safe and Sustainable commissioning. [55766] review issued by the NHS Joint Committee of Primary Care Trusts. [55759] Mr Simon Burns: The Government’s health reforms aim to put patients at the heart of the national health Mr Simon Burns: The “Safe and Sustainable” review service by giving them more choice and control over of children’s heart services in England is being conducted their health care, including the ability to choose their by the NHS Specialised Commissioning Team. The general practitioner (GP) practice. Department has therefore made no estimate of the cost The current system of geographical boundaries can of the review. restrict patients’ ability to register with a GP practice The programme is ongoing so costs are still being which meets their needs and aspirations. The White incurred, and will be incurred up to the decision later Paper “Equity and excellence: Liberating the NHS” this year. The intention is to publish the final costs once committed to give every patient a clear right to choose the process is complete. to register with any GP practice they want with an open list, without being restricted by where they live. A Heart Diseases: Rehabilitation national consultation showed overwhelming support from the public for this flexibility, with over 70% of the Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Health public who commented in favour. We are currently what assessment he has made of the availability in the considering issues raised in the consultation and will NHS of cardiac rehabilitation for people after they discuss with the profession in the normal way any have had a heart attack; and if he will make a proposed changes to existing arrangements. statement. [55469] 173W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 174W

Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not made an “As we develop and refine the value-based pricing model, we assessment of the availability in the national health will pay particular, careful attention to the potential impact on service of cardiac rehabilitation for people after they special groups of medicines. It may be appropriate to apply have had a heart attack. It is a matter for NHS organisations slightly different arrangements to some medicines, as is the case now. For example, some drugs that treat very rare conditions are to plan and develop services based on their specific currently funded through the arrangements for the national local knowledge and expertise. commissioning of specialised services. However, the presumption Information on cardiac rehabilitation services is available will be towards designing the system in a way that minimises the in the latest National Audit of Cardiac Rehabilitation’s need for parallel mechanisms.” (NACR) annual report which can be found on NACR’s Through the consultation we sought views on whether website: there are types or groups of medicines, for example, www.cardiacrehabilitation.org.uk/nacr/docs/2010.pdf those that treat very rare conditions, which should be There is also a range of information publicly available better dealt with through separate arrangements outside to assist NHS commissioners including a commissioning value-based pricing. pack which can be found at: We are considering the consultation responses and www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ will publish our response to the consultation in due PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/Browsable/DH_117504 course. Hepatitis: Scotland Organs: Donors

Mr Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what discussions he has had with Ministers in with reference to the Report of the arms-length bodies the Scottish Executive on the Scottish public inquiry review, what plans his Department has for the into hepatitis C/HIV acquired infections from NHS regulation of live donor organ transplants currently treatment in Scotland involving contaminated blood regulated by the Human Tissue Authority. [55563] and blood products. [55415] Anne Milton: One of the principal aims of the arm’s Anne Milton: We have had no discussions about the length bodies review is to streamline and simplify regulation. inquiry with Scottish Ministers. The Department is To help achieve this, our preferred option is to transfer co-operating with the inquiry team and has responded all of the functions of the Human Tissue Authority to a number of requests from the inquiry for copies of (HTA) to the Care Quality Commission apart from any relevant official documents. research-related functions which the proposed Health National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse: Research Authority may take on. The Government will Public Appointments be consulting in the late summer on this and other options as to where functions currently carried out by the HTA would best sit in the future. Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Health who he plans to appoint to conduct the peer Patients: Transport review of the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse and the National Addiction Centre; and who will be responsible for the selection of the per David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for review panel reports on addiction to prescribed Health what steps he is taking to prevent misuse of over-the-counter medicines. [55603] hospital transport by those who do not have a valid medical reason to use the service. [55794] Anne Milton: Departmental officials appointed three independent experts with international reputations in Mr Simon Burns: The Department has issued clear the fields of pain management, addiction and pharmacy eligibility guidance for the use of non-emergency patient to peer review the draft reports on addiction to medicine transport services (PTS) that makes clear that PTS that were commissioned by. the Department. In order should only be awarded to those patients with a medical to maintain the integrity and confidentiality of the peer need for transportation. It is for the national health review process, the identity of peer reviewers is not service to determine locally a patient’s eligibility for disclosed. PTS either by a health care professional or by non-clinically qualified staff who are both: The peer-reviewed reports were published on the 11 May. Copies have already been placed in the Library. clinically supervised and/or working within locally agreed protocols or guidelines; and NHS: Drugs employed by the NHS or working under contract for the NHS.

Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Primary Care Trusts: Birmingham Health whether his planned system of value-based pricing for medicines will include medicines for the Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for treatment of rare diseases; and if he will make a Health whether he has prepared a risk assessment for statement. [55934] the proposed reorganisation of the NHS in the Heart of Birmingham Primary Care Trust area. [55541] Mr Simon Burns: We set out our proposals for a new value-based approach to the pricing of medicines in the Mr Simon Burns: The Department conducted an consultation document, “A new value-based approach impact assessment alongside the Health and Social to the pricing of branded medicines”. The consultation Care Bill. This estimates the effects of the modernisation which closed on 17 March 2011, stated in Paragraph 4.4, at national level, and includes discussion of the risks 175W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 176W and how they can be mitigated. We do not have a Anne Milton: We have no plans to establish a national regional breakdown of these predicted effects. The impact training and accreditation scheme for the tattooing and assessment is available on the Department’s website at: cosmetic piercing industries. Practitioners, their professional www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ organisations, industry bodies, training bodies and PublicationsLegislation/DH_123583 enforcement authorities are best placed to work together and a copy has already been placed in the Library. to agree on suitable standards of good practice and competency. Smoking

Mr Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE what the smoking prevalence rate is in Crewe and Nantwich constituency. [55511] Coal Gasification

Anne Milton: Information is not available in the Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy format requested. The Department does not hold and Climate Change what his Department’s policy is information on smoking prevalence at constituency or on coal gasification as an alternative fuel source. primary care trust level. [56167] Information on prevalence of cigarette smoking by Charles Hendry: The potential of underground coal sex, country, and Government office region of England gasification (UGC) is recognised and it could make an in 1998 to 2009 is contained within Table 1.11 of the important contribution in future, but the technology for General Lifestyle Survey ‘Smoking and Drinking among UGC is still in its early stages. adults, 2009’, published by the Office for National As the freehold owner of the coal resource, our Statistics. This publication is available on the Office for non-departmental public body, the Coal Authority, has National Statistics website at: lead responsibility with respect to the licensing of potential www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_compendia/GLF09/ UGC projects. Along with the authority we continue to GeneralLifestyleSurvey2009.pdf monitor developments in the sector. A copy of this publication has already been placed in the Library. Energy: Housing Table 3.1a of ‘Smoking, drinking and drug use among young people in England in 2009’shows smoking behaviour Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy among young people aged 11 to 15 by sex for the period and Climate Change what discussions he has had with 1982 to 2000. Table 3.1b shows the same information the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the for the period 2001-09. These data are available at: use of data matching for the purposes of targeting www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/sdd09fullreport energy efficiency measures at priority households other than pensioners. [56151] A copy of this publication has been placed in the Library. Gregory Barker: DECC and DWP Ministers and officials are working closely together on data South London Healthcare NHS Trust: Restructure matching as an important part of the policy development and planning for the Core Group of the Warm Home Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Discount Scheme. The scheme will involve data matching pursuant to the answer of 5 April 2011, Official Report, DWP pension credit data with energy suppliers’ customer column 842W, on South London Healthcare NHS data to give recipients a rebate on their energy bills. This Trust: restructure, what representations he has received follows the successful delivery of the pilot 2010 Energy on the potential restructuring of South London Rebate Scheme (ERS), which led to over 200,000 older Healthcare NHS Trust since January 2011. [55479] poorer pensioners receiving a discount of £80 off their electricity bill. Mr Simon Burns: Further to my written answer of 5 April 2011, Official Report, column 842W, a search Data matching for the Core Group of Warm has been made of the Department of Health Home Discount will involve a significantly larger correspondence database between 1 January 2011 to client group than that used for ERS. This will lead to 13 May 2011 which has found five items of correspondence. significant technical, security, operational and policy One letter has been received from the Under-Secretary challenges. To seek to expand the scope of data of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the matching before evaluating this wider use of existing Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), powers would constitute a significant delivery risk. three letters from my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr Evennett), and one from In addition, the Government are currently developing a constituent of his. proposals for a fundamental reform of the working age benefits regime. The additional groups proposed for Tattooing data marching by respondents to the Warm Home Discount consultation are likely to change significantly. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health We need to ensure that any further data matching if he will assess the merits of establishing a nationally powers would be durable and deliverable. recognised training and accreditation scheme for the tattooing and piercing industries; and if he will make a The Government are not considering widening data statement. [55477] matching powers at this stage. 177W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 178W

CABINET OFFICE Pilot provider Charge? Maximum charge (£) Businesses: Transition Fund Lincolnshire and Rutland EBP No — Mr Timpson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Norfolk NCS Consortium Yes 99 Office how many organisations in Crewe and Nantwich Prince’s Trust No — constituency have applied for an allocation from the Safe in Tees Valley No — V and Dame Kelly Holmes Legacy Trust No — Transition Fund. [55509] Young Devon and South West No — Mr Hurd: There were no applications to the Transition Consortium Fund from organisations in the Crewe and Nantwich constituency. Tessa Jowell: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Charities Office what estimate has been made of the average amount that a young person will pay to participate in a Mr Gyimah: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet National Citizen Service pilot. [54975] Office by what date he expects his review of the Charities Act 2006 to be completed. [56126] Mr Hurd: Over 4,400 National Citizen Service pilot places in 2011 will be offered by providers levying no Mr Hurd: A person must be appointed before charge for participants. The remainder of places will be 8 November 2011, to undertake an independent review offered according to each provider’s fee scale, which in of the Charities Act 2006, as required under Section 73 all cases allow for discounts and bursaries according to of that Act. The timetable for the review itself has not participants’ ability to pay. Since so many participants been finalised, but the review is likely to take between will not pay a fee to participate, it is not appropriate to six and nine months, concluding in 2012. Once completed, estimate the average amount payable per participant, the report of the review must be laid before Parliament. but the range of maximum fees levied by those pilots Charities: Higher Education charging a fee is between £20 and £99. Those providers levying a charge offer a range of discounts and bursaries, Helen Jones: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and are required to ensure that financial cost is not a Office what discussions he has had with Ministerial barrier to participation for any young person who wishes colleagues on the potential changes to charity law in to take part. connection with the ability of public schools to In all cases the fee charged for participation is a small sponsor off-quota places at universities. [55789] proportion of the total cost of providing a National Citizen Service place. Mr Hurd: The forthcoming Higher Education White Paper will consult on options for introducing off-quota Graduates: Unemployment recruitment. Following the consultation there will be discussions between ministerial colleagues on taking Stephen Twigg: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet forward any proposed options, including any changes Office what the rate of graduate unemployment is in to the law that are considered necessary. (a) England, (b) Liverpool and (c) Liverpool West, Citizenship: Young People Derby constituency. [55590] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Tessa Jowell: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Office which National Citizen Service pilot projects asked the Authority to reply. charge participants to take part; and how much each such project charges per participant. [54974] Letter from Stephen Penneck dated May 2011: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Mr Hurd: 12 providers are running National Citizen have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Service (NCS) pilots in 2011. The NCS pilot programme what the rate of graduate unemployment is in (a) England, (b) aims to test a range of different approaches to the Liverpool and (c) Liverpool West, Derby constituency. (55590) delivery of the core NCS programme. One of the The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles unemployment dimensions we are seeking to test is the impact of statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey levying a small charge on participants. Half of the 2011 (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. pilot providers are levying a charge for participation Unfortunately the sample size does not support analyses of graduate unemployment for Liverpool and Liverpool West, Derby while the other half are not. Those providers levying a constituency. charge offer a range of discounts and bursaries, and are Unemployment rates are normally based on the proportion of required to ensure that financial cost is not a barrier to economically active aged 16 and over who are unemployed. participation for any young person who wishes to take However, questions on qualifications are not asked of all people part. The maximum charges by NCS provider are shown above state pension age. Therefore the analysis has been restricted in the following table. to those aged between 16 and 64 years. According to APS figures, the rate of graduate unemployment Pilot provider Charge? Maximum charge (£) for people aged 16 to 64 years, in England for the 12 month period January to December 2009 was 4.3%. Bolton Lads and Girls Club Yes 20 As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject Catch22 Yes 50 to a margin of uncertainty. Challenge Network Yes 50 National and local area estimates for many labour market Connexions Cumbria No — statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant Field Studies Council Yes 95 count are available on the NOMIS website at Football League Trust Yes 50 http://www.nomisweb.co.uk. 179W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 180W

Public Sector: Pay Legal Aid: Funding

Jon Trickett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 20. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Office whether outsourced services solely funded by the Justice what recent assessment he has made of the public purse will be subject to the public sector pay effects of reductions in the legal aid budget on the differential proposals. [36960] availability of legal advice for those on low incomes in Newcastle upon Tyne. [55688] Mr Maude: Even where outsourced services are funded solely by the public purse, the organisations providing Mr Djanogly: We published impact assessments alongside these contracted services are mostly private sector entities the consultation paper. However, these do not contain and they are not funded entirely from the public purse. analysis of any specific geographies. Therefore, while the contract terms for service provision fall within the scope of the Government’s procurement Restorative Justice activity, the structure and remuneration of the private sector staff does not and is a matter for individual 21. Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for companies. Justice what plans he has for the use of restorative justice to reduce the level of offending; and if he will Voluntary Organisations make a statement. [55689]

Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Blunt: We are committed to increasing use of Office what recent progress the ministerial working restorative justice. It makes offenders face up to the group on the big society has made; and if he will make consequences of their crime, and provides victims a statement. [51767] the opportunity to seek reparation and move on from the crime they have suffered. There is growing evidence Mr Hurd: The informal ministerial group on big in its potential to cut reoffending and crime. society and localism shares ideas and supports progress across government on cross cutting-issues such as the Sentencing: Crime Rates role of the voluntary sector in service delivery, the progress of the big society in vanguard areas, community 22. Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State budgets, and the compact between the voluntary sector for Justice what assessment he has made of the effects and the state. on crime rates of (a) community sentences and (b) Progress on the big society is already taking shape, custodial sentences. [55690] with 21 mutual pathfinders across public services, 12 organisations already appointed to run the 2011 National Mr Blunt: We published on 10 May 2011 a report Citizen Service pilots, and new ideas on giving and comparing adult reoffending rates for different types of volunteering in the Giving Green Paper. sentence. This showed that offenders who received sentences of less than 12 months had higher reoffending rates than similar offenders who received community orders. When specifically comparing different lengths of custodial JUSTICE sentence for similar offenders, longer sentences had lower reoffending rates. Criminal Justice System Charter of Fundamental Rights (EU) 18. Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what steps he is taking to increase the efficiency Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of the criminal justice system. [55686] whether the Government was represented at the Fourth Meeting of the Fundamental Rights Platform held by Mr Kenneth Clarke: I am working closely with the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in April 2011. [55534] my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), and the Attorney-General to develop Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Fundamental Rights Platform proposals to tackle inefficiency, so that we can have a of the European Union Agency for Fundamental Rights more productive criminal justice system. Examples of is a network of civil society and non-governmental these include streamlining the administration of cases; organisations active in the field of fundamental rights. making greater use of video-links; and extending digital Government representatives do not normally attend working. I will bring detailed plans to the House later meetings of the platform and therefore the Government this year. were not represented at the meeting. Legal Aid Reform Custody: Death

19. Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice when he expects to publish the response to his Justice if he will take steps to reduce the waiting time Department’s consultation on the reform of legal aid. for inquests into deaths in custody. [55722] [55687] Mr Djanogly: The coroner’s inquest into a death in Mr Djanogly: We intend to publish the response to custody is the hearing which fulfils our obligations consultation as soon as possible after Whitsun recess. under article 2 of the European convention on human 181W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 182W rights. Few such inquests take place until all other Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice is funding investigations have been completed. From 2012, we will 33 voluntary organisations which between them will be publishing data on the number of deaths in each provide 44 dedicated court-based independent domestic category of custody in the annual statistics on deaths violence advisers to support victims of domestic abuse. reported to coroners which will provide greater transparency This funding stems from the Victim and Witness General about these inquests. The Independent Advisory Panel Fund, announced in January 2011 and will last for three on Deaths in Custody and the Coroners’ Society of years. England and Wales are also working together to develop In addition to this, 28 services providing 30 advisers a series of recommendations to address inquest delays. for victims in specialist domestic violence court systems We are also committed to improving the coroner system will be funded during 2011-2012. This funding stems and intend to achieve this through implementation of from the Victim Surcharge. Most of these grants are key provisions within part 1 of the Coroners and Justice paid to local authorities employing voluntary services Act 2009. Subject to parliamentary agreement, this will to provide the adviser post. include removing rigid geographical boundary restrictions so that inquests can be transferred between coroners Driving Offences more easily to tackle and avoid delays. Departmental Billing Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what proportion of motorists involved in an incident Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for leading to the (a) death and (b) serious injury of a Justice what mechanism his Department has cyclist received (i) a custodial sentence, (ii) a fine, (iii) a established to ensure its payments are passed through community service order and (iv) another sentence in the supply chain to each Tier in accordance with the each of the last three years. [55779] last date for payment defined in the Government’s Fair Payment guidance. [55885] Mr Blunt: It is not possible to identify from prosecutions for motoring offences involving the death or injury of a Mr Blunt: In line with the Government’s fair payment person, those cases where the victim was a cyclist. Data guidance the Ministry of Justice has included a clause collated centrally by the Ministry of Justice do not within its terms and conditions of contract requiring include information about the circumstances of each contractors to enter a clause in any subcontracts to case other than those which may be identified from a ensure that the prompt payment provisions are passed statute through the supply chain. The clause is reproduced as follows. Legal Advice and Assistance: Mental Health 1.1. Where the Contractor enters into a sub-contract with a supplier or contractor for the purpose of performing its obligations Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for under the Contract, it shall ensure that a provision is included in Justice whether family law matter starts will be such a sub-contract which requires payment to be made of all redistributed among providers who are running out of sums due by the Contractor to the sub-contractor within a matter starts and may not be in a position to represent specified period not exceeding 30 days from the receipt of a valid invoice provided always that the Contractor has been paid by the patients who are detained under the Mental Health Authority. Act 1983 and who ask for their services. [55848] Compliance with this requirement is monitored in the course of routine contract management. Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) is responsible for administering the legal aid scheme in Departmental Mobile Phones England and Wales. The LSC regularly reviews provider capacity and Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice matter start allocations. In the event of gaps in access what the name is of each contractor or supplier of (a) being identified in any category of law, including mental mobile telephone and (b) mobile data services to his health, the LSC will take appropriate action to address Department. [56067] these, taking into account the specific circumstances of the geographic area. Mr Kenneth Clarke: There are several suppliers: Her Majesty’s Prison Service: (a) HP provides services using Matter starts for family work cannot be used for Orange, Vodafone, and O2 for mobile telephony, (b) HP provides mental health cases. Therefore there will be no redistribution services using O2 and Vodafone to provide mobile data as the of matter starts from family to mental health. network suppliers. Probation Services: Steria provide services through Vodafone. Legal Aid Outside of the National Offender Management Service (NOMS), Vodafone and Orange provide both mobile telephony and mobile Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice data for MOJ’s Disc Infrastructure Renewal Programme. This how many people received legal aid services in (a) includes the arm’s length bodies (ALBs), (although ALBs will Barnsley Central constituency and (b) South probably have their own legacy mobile contracts). Yorkshire in 2010. [55589] Domestic Violence Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for is responsible for administering the legal aid scheme in Justice how many independent domestic violence England and Wales. adviser posts funded in whole or in part by his The LSC does not record the number of people Department are based in voluntary organisations. who receive legal aid, but instead records the number [55922] of ‘acts of assistance’. One individual may receive a 183W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 184W number of separate acts of assistance, and one act of Prison Sentences assistance can help more than one person. The following table shows the number of acts of Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for assistance delivered by legal aid providers with postcodes Justice with reference to his Department’s 2011 falling within Barnsley Central constituency during 2009-10. compendium of re-offending statistics and analysis, All acts of assistance are based on the solicitor’s location, page 16, if he will draw to the attention of the which may not reflect where the client is based. The Sentencing Council the finding in respect of figures do not include legal aid received via telephone, re-offending of (a) offenders given immediate the housing possession court duty scheme, or family custodial sentences of two years or more but less than mediation, as these figures are not available on a four years and (b) offenders who received immediate constituency level. custodial sentences of one year or more but less than two years. [55757] Assistance type Number Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice already makes Crime Lower claims 3,851 available a wide range of data on sentencing and offender Legal Help New Matter Starts 2,445 management to the Sentencing Council. This covers Civil Representation certificates 656 both published statistics, including the compendium of issued re-offending statistics, and data to support the council’s Crime Higher closed cases 602 statutory duty to have regard to the cost of different sentences and their relative effectiveness in preventing The LSC is currently collating data relating to South reoffending. Yorkshire. I will write to the hon. Member once the Prisoners’ Release information has been verified and place a copy in the Library of the House. Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether he has any plans to review the Parole Board’s Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice process for determining when individuals serving an how many civil legal aid acts of assistance there were in indeterminate public protection sentence should be Warrington North constituency for each type of case in released. [55426] the last year for which figures are available. [56036] Mr Blunt: On 7 December 2010 we published proposals in the Green Paper, “Breaking the Cycle: effective Mr Djanogly: There were no civil acts of assistance punishment, rehabilitation and sentencing of offenders”, delivered by legal aid providers with postcodes falling for public consultation. These proposals included the within Warrington North constituency during 2009-10. reform of sentences of Imprisonment for Public Protection All acts of assistance are based on the provider’s location, (IPPs). which may not reflect where the client is based. Figures for legal aid received via telephone, the Housing Possession As now, offenders who have completed their minimum Court Duty scheme, or family mediation, are not available term will still have to undergo a risk assessment before on a constituency level. being considered for release and the Parole Board will consider whether each individual case is suitable for release on licence. We are, however, exploring whether a Legal Aid: Mental Health new test for those who have served their punishment would focus indefinite imprisonment on those who Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for clearly pose a very serious risk of future harm. These Justice (1) which mental health providers of legal aid proposals have been published on the Ministry of Justice contracts have failed their key performance indicator website at: review; and what the outcome was of those reviews; www.justice.gov.uk [55849] Consultation ended on 4 March 2011; the Government’s (2) whether key performance indicator reviews have response will be published shortly. been carried out in respect of those mental health Prisoners providers of legal aid contracts which are unlikely to use 80% of their family law matters starts in the current Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice contract period. [55850] (1) how many unauthorised items were confiscated from prisoners in each prison in each of the last five Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) years; [55558] is responsible for administering the legal aid scheme in (2) how many (a) mobile phones, (b) knives and England and Wales. other unauthorised sharp instruments, (c) items The LSC does not hold the information requested. containing alcohol, (d) pornographic materials and Review of performance as measured by key performance (e) drugs have been confiscated from prisoners in each indicators in the relevant contract is continuous rather of the last five years. [55559] than at set stages. The current round of contracts Mr Blunt: Items confiscated from prisoners are recorded commenced in November 2010 and therefore performance on the Prison Service Incident Reporting System but in under those contracts is still at a relatively early stage. a format that cannot readily be interrogated electronically. The LSC works collaboratively with providers in the To provide the information requested would involve the event of any concerns, taking into account individual manual inspection of more than 79,000 incident records circumstances, and with an emphasis on improving for the five financial years concerned which could be performance rather than sanctions. achieved only at disproportionate cost. 185W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 186W

Prisons: Film (3) what the cost to the public purse was of the purchase of television licences for the prison Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice establishment in each of the last 10 years. [55533] (1) what the cost to the public purse was of providing licences from (a) the Motion Picture Licensing Mr Blunt: The current National Offender Management Corporation and (b) Filmbank for the public Service (NOMS) accounting system was introduced in performance of films in prison establishments in each the fiscal year 2005-06; to interrogate records before of the last 10 years; [55531] this time would be at disproportionate cost. (2) what the cost to the public purse was of providing NOMS has purchased a single national licence from audio and visual entertainment to prisoners in each of Motion Picture Licensing Corporation (MPLC) since the last 10 years; and what the cost to the public was of 2006-07 and from Filmbank since 2007-08. Prior to purchasing (a) DVDs, (b) CDs, (c) televisions, (d) those dates, only limited local licences were purchased. audio playback equipment and (e) other entertainment equipment for use by prisoners in each Establishment licence costs from the public purse for of the last 10 years; [55532] MPLC and Filmbank are as follows:

£ Fiscal year 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

MPLC 411.25 264,333.87 280,697.64 297,805.18 300,613.80 316,628.61 Filmbank 440.64 88.13 39,715.00 39,773.75 39,100.00 46,882.50

Costs for these licences are being phased out and are C&R is used in all prison and young offender institutions. restricted to those establishments still awaiting digital It is an important tool in maintaining control and order switchover. The switchover will be completed during and for the protection of prisoners, staff and visitors. 2012 and is being financed from prisoner in-cell television There were in excess of 16,000 incidents requiring the payments. use of C&R in 2010. Despite the death of Mr Moyo in Costs from the public purse for providing audio and 2005, it has proved to be a very safe system for enabling visual entertainment to prisoners, specifically, DVDs, violent and dangerous prisoners to be restrained while CDs, televisions, audio playback equipment and other minimising the risk of injury to staff or prisoners. entertainment equipment are not separately identifiable Tribunal Service within the NOMS accounting system, as there is not a specific account code for this type of purchase. The cost Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of providing televisions in cells is met from the weekly what the average waiting time for a hearing in each part payments made by prisoners who are eligible for this of the Tribunal Service was (a) on the latest date for privilege and choose to have a television in their cells. which information is available and (b) in May 2010. In-cell television is exempt from the TV licence. Some [56035] establishments have televisions in public and/or staff areas for which a single licence per establishment is Mr Djanogly: There are, including the Upper Tribunal required. No central record is held of how many Chambers, 31 tribunal jurisdictions within Her Majesty’s establishments have a licence. Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS). To provide the average waiting time for each of these could be done so Restraint Techniques only at disproportionate cost. The three largest jurisdictions within HMCTS, social security and child support (SSCS), Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for immigration and asylum, and employment tribunals Justice whether he plans to revise the national control accounted for 92% of receipts for the business year and restraint guidelines for the prison service following 2009-10. The following table shows the average waiting the recommendations by the coroner in the Godfrey for these jurisdictions. The latest date for which information Moyo inquest. [55723] is available is December 2010. Average waiting time for social security and child support, immigration and Mr Blunt: The coroner in the inquest of Mr Godfrey asylum, and employment tribunals, May 2010 and December 2010 Moyo, made a report to the Ministry of Justice under Average time in weeks Coroner’s Rule 43 asking for consideration to be given May 20101 December 20101 by the National Offender Management Service to reviewing Social Security and Child 16.8 19.0 the medical arrangements for prisoners with epilepsy Support2 and the response of discipline staff to prisoners who Immigration and Asylum3 17.4 11.8 have suffered an epileptic seizure. Employment Tribunals4 31.4 29.0 1 In month. National Control and Restraint (C&R) policy and 2 Average time from date of receipt in HMCTS to date of first hearing. Not all training provides extensive guidance on how to identify cases heard. warning signs during C&R which might indicate that a 3 Average time from date of receipt in HMCTS to date of first substantive hearing. prisoner is experiencing a medical emergency. Work is 4 Average taken from date of receipt of claim in HMCTS to date of first under way with medical advisers and organisations hearing. This data refers to both single claims (involving only one claimant) such as Epilepsy Action to make this guidance and and multiple cases where two or more people bring cases involving one or training even more comprehensive. more jurisdictions usually against a single employer. 187W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 188W

Waiting times within the SSCS jurisdiction have Absent Voting: Fraud been increasing due to recent changes in the welfare benefit system. This explains why the average waiting Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Deputy Prime time from receipt of the appeal at the SSCS to the Minister (1) what estimate he has made of the first hearing has increased from 16.8 weeks in May 2010 incidence of (a) postal and (b) proxy vote fraud in the to 19.0 weeks in December 2010. The SSCS Tribunal May 2011 elections; [55593] has continued to respond strongly to the significant increase in appeals. As the volumes of receipts have (2) what steps he is taking to reduce the level of increased, so has the capacity of the tribunal to deal electoral fraud; if he will bring forward proposals to with them. It is increasing its capacity through restrict postal and proxy votes; and if he will make a the recruitment of additional staff, judicial medical statement. [55597] tribunal members as well as a range of business improvements. Mr Harper: The Government have not made an estimate of the incidence of postal and proxy vote fraud at the polls held on 5 May 2011. The Electoral Commission in conjunction with the Association of DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Chief Police Officers (ACPO) collected data on Absent Voting allegations of electoral malpractice reported to the police at those polls and the Commission and ACPO Stephen Mosley: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister will publish their findings on the data collected in due how many postal ballots were issued for elections held course. on 5 May 2011 in (a) England, (b) Cheshire West and The Electoral Commission has led work with police Chester council and (c) City of Chester constituency. forces, political parties and returning officers to raise [55569] awareness of integrity issues and strengthen systems to ensure that fraud is detected and prosecuted and to Mr Harper: Returning officers in England have a draw attention to existing good practice. There is evidence statutory duty to send to the Electoral Commission a of effective working between returning officers and statement which includes the total number of postal local police at recent elections with the police engaged ballot papers issued. This must happen in the period on election issues and committed to the detection of between 10 and 15 working days after the close of the electoral fraud which is reflected in the findings of the poll. I understand that the Commission plans to joint report by ACPO and Electoral Commission on the publish both local and national statistics on the issue of May 2010 elections, “Analysis of cases of alleged electoral postal ballot packs at the 5 May polls in its report on malpractice in 2010”. This approach was continued for the administration of the polls, due for publication in the polls that took place on 5 May 2011. October. The Government are committed to reducing electoral Stephen Mosley: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister fraud and has announced that it will legislate to bring on what grounds returning officers were allowed to individual electoral registration into force in 2014, ahead disqualify postal ballots at the verification stage; and of the next general election. This will make the electoral how many ballot papers were disqualified at the register more accurate and secure, and this should give verification stage on each such ground in all elections greater protection to the integrity of the voting process held on 5 May 2011 in (a) England, (b) Cheshire West at elections. and Chester council and (c) City of Chester The Government will wish to consider carefully the constituency. [55570] planned reports by the Electoral Commission on the polls on 5 May 2011, and any recommendations made Mr Harper: Returning officers must reject a postal by the Electoral Commission, and will continue to keep ballot paper if they are not satisfied that a postal voting procedures under review to ensure that the electoral statement is duly completed. When a statement is selected process is secure. for verification the returning officer must compare the date of birth and signature on the postal voting statement with those held by the electoral registration officer. The Elections returning officer should reject the postal vote if the records do not match. These measures are important to David Simpson: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister ensure the integrity of the election process. what the average number of disallowed ballot papers Returning officers in England have a statutory duty was in each electoral area in the May 2011 elections; to send to the Electoral Commission a statement which and what the five most frequent reasons were for includes the total number of postal ballot papers issued disallowing ballots. [55950] and returned. This statement must include the number of ballot papers subject to the verification procedure Mr Harper: After the declaration of an election result, which have been rejected as not completed, and the returning officers are required to produce a statement number rejected because the personal identifiers do not of the total number of ballot papers which were rejected match. The statement must be returned in the period where: between 10 and 15 working days after the close of the poll. I understand that the Commission plans to publish (v) the official mark was missing; both local and national statistics on the issue and return (vi) an individual has voted for more than one candidate; of postal ballot packs at the 5May polls in its report on (vii) the ballot paper is blank or there is a void for uncertainty; the administration of the polls, due for publication in (viii) there is anything written on the ballot paper which could October. identify the voter. 189W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 190W

Information about the number of rejected ballot Civil Society Organisations: Taxation papers at the recent elections is not yet available. However, the Electoral Commission will undertake an analysis of Richard Fuller: To ask the Chancellor of the these statements from each area, which it plans to make Exchequer (1) what steps he plans to take to enable available on its website in due course. collaboration between civil society organisations to The powers given to returning officers in this respect take place tax efficiently; [55607] help to ensure the accuracy and integrity of the final (2) whether he has any plans to implement in UK law result as well as the secrecy of the ballot. Decisions on Article 132(1)(f) of the Principal VAT Directive individual ballot papers are made at the returning officer’s 2006/112/EC to exempt from VAT the supply of shared discretion, although their decisions in individual cases services between civil society organisations. [55608] are subject to legal challenge. David Simpson: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Mr Gauke: The Chancellor of the Exchequer announced whether he received any reports of suspension of in the Budget that the Government would continue to voting at polling stations in the May 2011 local consult on the options for incorporating the exemption elections. [55951] directly into UK legislation.

Mr Harper: The Electoral Commission has received Corporation Tax: Businesses one report of the temporary suspension of voting at a polling place during the local elections which took place on May 5 2011. It was reported that voting was Matthew Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the suspended for around 45 minutes at a polling place in Exchequer how many businesses (a) nationally, (b) in Portadown due to the death of a voter. No other reports each region, (c) in each local authority and (d) in each of suspended voting have been received. parliamentary constituency he expects to be affected by his decision to reduce the main rate of corporation tax European Court of Human Rights: Prisoner Voting to 26 per cent. with effect from April 2011. [54610]

Chris Kelly: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what Mr Gauke: Around 45,000 companies that pay tax at estimate he has made of the potential cost to the public the main rate, and around 40,000 that are taxed at the purse of not implementing the European Court of main rate but who benefit from marginal relief will have Human Rights ruling on prisoner voting. [55678] lower tax bills as a result of the reductions in the main Mr Harper: As the Attorney-General made clear rate of corporation tax announced in the last two during the Commons debate on this issue on 10 February, Budgets. it is very difficult to make an accurate estimate of the HMRC do not routinely estimate the number of cost to the public purse, since we cannot know the companies affected or fiscal impact of business tax number of prisoners that may bring a claim, nor can we changes at regional or constituency level. be certain exactly how much compensation each prisoner might be awarded. Departmental Pay However, if the entire UK sentenced population in the prison system (over 70,000 prisoners) were to bring Mr Redwood: To ask the Chancellor of the claims, and on the basis that about £1,000 to £1,500 of Exchequer what additional pay he plans to provide to compensation and costs might have to be paid in each officials in (a) his Department and (b) HM Revenue case, clearly the matter has the potential to be very and Customs in the period from 1 April 2011 to 31 costly. March 2013 to reflect (i) seniority, (ii) promotion and (iii) performance. [55410]

TREASURY Justine Greening: HM Treasury has yet to open Building Societies: Regulation discussions with its trades unions and HM Revenue and Customs is currently in discussions with its trade unions. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Chancellor of the Neither Department is yet in a position to disclose Exchequer, pursuant to the answer of 25 January 2011 details of their awards, but awards will be in line with to the hon. Member for Carlisle, Official Report, the pay freeze announced in the Government’s June column 188W, on building and mutual societies, what 2010 emergency Budget. Neither Department has any progress he has made in his consideration of how to plans to make payments based on seniority, or to change modify building society legislation; and if he will make their existing rules for pay on promotion. a statement. [55945] Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation Mr Hoban: The Government have consulted on amending the Building Societies Act 1986 to enable societies to grant floating charges to payment and settlement Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Chancellor of the systems. The Treasury is taking this forward as part of Exchequer when he expects compensation to be paid to the wider reform of financial regulation. The Government eligible Equitable Life policyholders. [56191] are also seeking to achieve an appropriate outcome on capital requirements for mutuals in the capital requirements Mr Hoban: It is intended that £1 billion will be paid directive. The Government continue to work closely out by the scheme over the first three years of the with building societies and will consider further legislative spending review period. First payments will be made by changes where there is a robust case for making them. the end of June this year. 191W Written Answers17 MAY 2011 Written Answers 192W

Financial Institutions: Directors recommendations that are due in September. This includes both the Commission’s recommendations and the Richard Fuller: To ask the Chancellor of the Government’s response. Exchequer how many senior executives of UK Public Sector: Pensions financial institutions in which the Government has a shareholding have been dismissed on grounds of (a) Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Chancellor of the capability and (b) conduct since July 2007. [55760] Exchequer what meetings his Department has had with outside organisations in order to meet its objective that Mr Hoban: UK Financial Investments (UKFI) proposed reforms to public sector pensions are manages the Government’s shareholding in financial sustainable and progressive. [55724] institutions at arm’s length and on a commercial basis. UKFI’s overarching objective is to protect and create Danny Alexander: The Chancellor announced in the value for the taxpayer as shareholder, with due regard Budget that the Government accept Lord Hutton’s to financial stability and acting in a way that promotes recommendations as a basis for consultation with public competition. sector workers, trades unions and others. Details on employee issues are a matter for the individual In response to a request from the TUC, the Government banks. have set up a series of formal discussions with unions for work forces represented by member organisations of Financial Services Authority the TUC. For those work forces not represented in that forum, the relevant Secretary of State will engage with Richard Fuller: To ask the Chancellor of the their work force as appropriate. Exchequer (1) how much has been paid (a) in total and This issue is also being discussed in the course of (b) to each individual in redundancy or other other regular meetings between Ministers and external severance compensation to senior executives and bodies, and in correspondence. The Government will directors of the Financial Services Authority since July listen to the views of all interested parties. In addition 2007; [55481] the Government are conducting a formal consultation (2) what the monetary value is of fines imposed by on Fair Deal, which ends on 15 June. the Financial Services Authority on senior executives and directors of UK-based financial institutions for Taxation: Bingo misconduct associated with the financial crisis since July 2007; [55482] Ian Austin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (3) whether any senior executives of the Financial what representations he has received from the bingo Services Authority have been dismissed on grounds of industry on the relationship between bingo gross (a) capability and (b) conduct since July 2007. [55495] profits tax and overall tax revenues from the bingo sector. [55978] Mr Hoban: This is a matter for the Financial Services Authority (FSA), whose day-to-day operations are Justine Greening: The Government have received a independent of Government. I have asked the FSA to report commissioned by the Bingo Association on the write to the hon. Member on the issue he raises. A copy impact of taxation on the bingo industry. The report of the response will be placed in the Library of the discusses the relationship between the rate of bingo House. duty and tax revenues. Taxation: Company Cars Independent Commission on Banking Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer what information his Department holds on what consideration he plans to give to the monetary the geographical distribution at (a) regional, (b) value of shares held by UK Financial Investments Ltd county and (c) local authority level of revenue in his determination on the recommendations of the generated from (i) fuel duty, (ii) vehicle excise duty, (iii) Independent Commission on Banking report he plans value added tax on fuel and (iv) tax charges on to adopt. [55799] company cars and car fuel benefit. [55997]

Mr Hoban: The Independent Commission on Banking’s Justine Greening: The Treasury does not have regionalised final report will be delivered to the Government by the information on tax receipts from transport taxes. VAT end of September 2011. The Government will then registered traders are not required to record in their decide on the right course of action. The Government VAT return the type of goods or services on which VAT do not seek to pre-judge the Commission’s final has been collected. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 17 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 135 JUSTICE—continued Charity Initiatives (Prisons) ...... 145 Prisoners (Foreign Nationals) ...... 148 Drug Rehabilitation ...... 146 Restorative Justice...... 135 ECHR Jurisdiction ...... 138 Sentencing...... 139 Injunctions (Privacy)...... 136 Topical Questions ...... 149 Legal Aid (Immigration)...... 147 Victim Support (Violent Crime)...... 147 Legal Aid Reform ...... 141 Work Opportunities (Prisons) ...... 144 Prisoners (Foreign Nationals) ...... 140 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 17 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 7WS JUSTICE...... 10WS Building and the Environment ...... 7WS Face to Face Services (Civil and Family Court Offices) ...... 10WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 9WS TREASURY ...... 7WS Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 9WS Debt Management Office...... 7WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 9WS Afghanistan: Monthly Progress Report April WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 11WS 2011 ...... 9WS Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission .... 11WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 17 May 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 137W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Departmental Data Protection...... 137W continued Energy Performance Certificates...... 147W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 149W Fire Services: Hoaxes and False Alarms...... 148W Aviation: Treaties ...... 149W Housing: Construction...... 147W English Language: Education ...... 150W Land: Ownership ...... 147W Graduates: Pay...... 150W Religious Buildings: Planning Permission ...... 148W Graduates: Work Experience ...... 151W Rented Housing: Private Sector ...... 148W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 151W Shared Ownership Schemes ...... 149W Postal Services...... 152W Tenant Services Authority: Government Postal Services: Fees and Charges ...... 152W Procurement Card...... 149W Research: Finance...... 152W Space Technology: Libya ...... 153W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 119W Students: Fees and Charges...... 153W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 119W Tobacco: Retail Trade ...... 153W Rugby: World Cup ...... 119W Trade Promotion...... 154W Telecommunications: Hearing Impairment ...... 120W

CABINET OFFICE...... 177W DEFENCE...... 109W Businesses: Transition Fund...... 177W Armed Forces: Casualties ...... 109W Charities ...... 177W Armed Forces: Pensions...... 110W Charities: Higher Education ...... 177W Armed Forces: Recruitment ...... 110W Citizenship: Young People ...... 177W Chinook Helicopters...... 111W Graduates: Unemployment...... 178W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 111W Public Sector: Pay ...... 179W Libya: Armed Conflict...... 111W Voluntary Organisations ...... 179W Middle East: Armed Conflict...... 112W Military Aircraft: Costs...... 112W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 144W Nuclear Power Stations: Security ...... 112W Affordable Housing...... 144W Nuclear Submarines...... 112W Allotments ...... 144W USA: Military Bases ...... 113W Audit Commission ...... 145W Council Housing...... 145W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 187W Departmental Billing ...... 146W Absent Voting ...... 187W Derelict Land: Housing...... 146W Absent Voting: Fraud...... 188W Col. No. Col. No. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Elections ...... 188W Departmental Data Protection...... 156W European Court of Human Rights: Prisoner Departmental Pay ...... 157W Voting ...... 189W Departmental Public Transport ...... 157W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 157W EDUCATION...... 121W Domestic Violence: Advisory Services ...... 158W Adoption ...... 121W Driving Offences ...... 158W CAFCASS: Qualifications ...... 121W English Language: Education ...... 159W Confederation of British Industry...... 122W Entry Clearances: Balkans ...... 159W Departmental Data Protection...... 122W Fines: Tobacco...... 159W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 122W Illegal Immigrants...... 160W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 122W Immigrants ...... 160W Departmental Travel ...... 122W Missing Persons ...... 160W Education: Torbay ...... 123W Offences against Children ...... 161W Foster Care ...... 123W Offenders: Deportation...... 162W Schools: Sports ...... 124W Sexual Offences: EU Action...... 162W Stop and Search ...... 162W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 176W Coal Gasification ...... 176W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 119W Energy: Housing ...... 176W Members: Offices ...... 119W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 124W AFFAIRS...... 113W Africa: Overseas Aid ...... 124W Departmental Legal Opinion ...... 113W Departmental Consultants...... 124W Departmental Work Experience...... 114W Departmental Data Protection...... 125W Flood Control...... 114W Departmental Work Experience...... 125W Floods: House Insurance ...... 115W Developing Countries: Education ...... 126W Inland Waterways ...... 116W Guyana: Climate Change...... 126W Official Visits ...... 117W Guyana: Floods ...... 127W Recycling: Incentives...... 117W Guyana: Overseas Aid ...... 127W Seas and Oceans: Environment Protection...... 118W North Korea: Overseas Aid...... 128W Thames Estuary ...... 118W Pakistan: Education...... 128W Voluntary Work ...... 117W Palestinians: International Assistance ...... 128W West Africa ...... 130W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 135W West Africa: Overseas Aid...... 131W British Nationals Abroad: Offences against Children...... 135W JUSTICE...... 179W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 135W Charter of Fundamental Rights (EU)...... 180W United Nations General Assembly...... 136W Criminal Justice System ...... 179W Custody: Death...... 180W HEALTH...... 164W Departmental Billing ...... 181W Cardiovascular System...... 164W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 181W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome ...... 164W Domestic Violence ...... 181W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Training ...... 165W Driving Offences ...... 182W Continuing Care ...... 165W Legal Advice and Assistance: Mental Health...... 182W Departmental Pay ...... 169W Legal Aid ...... 182W Diseases: Health Services ...... 169W Legal Aid: Funding...... 180W Diseases: Research ...... 169W Legal Aid: Mental Health ...... 183W Electronic Cigarettes ...... 170W Legal Aid Reform ...... 179W Fluoride: Drinking Water ...... 170W Prison Sentences ...... 184W General Practitioners ...... 171W Prisoners ...... 184W Health Services: Prisoners...... 172W Prisoners’ Release...... 184W Heart Diseases: Children...... 172W Prisons: Film...... 185W Heart Diseases: Rehabilitation ...... 172W Restorative Justice...... 180W Hepatitis: Scotland...... 173W Restraint Techniques...... 185W National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse: Sentencing: Crime Rates ...... 180W Public Appointments ...... 173W Tribunal Service ...... 186W NHS: Drugs...... 173W Organs: Donors ...... 174W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 163W Patients: Transport...... 174W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 163W Primary Care Trusts: Birmingham ...... 174W Electronic Government: Petitions ...... 163W Smoking...... 175W EU Law: Parliamentary Scrutiny ...... 163W South London Healthcare NHS Trust: Legal Aid: Reform ...... 163W Restructure ...... 175W Tattooing ...... 175W TRANSPORT ...... 137W Aircraft: Seating...... 137W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 154W Aviation: Biofuels...... 137W Arrest Warrants ...... 154W Aviation: Working Hours...... 138W Asylum: Detainees ...... 156W Biofuels...... 138W Children: Protection...... 156W Commuters ...... 139W Departmental Billing ...... 156W Cycling: Safety ...... 140W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT—continued TREASURY—continued Departmental Public Transport ...... 140W Departmental Pay ...... 190W Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency: Yeovil ...... 140W Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation .. 190W Great Western Railway: Finance ...... 141W Financial Institutions: Directors ...... 191W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 141W Financial Services Authority...... 191W Motor Vehicle: Testing...... 141W Independent Commission on Banking ...... 191W Motor Vehicles: Excise Duties...... 142W Public Sector: Pensions ...... 192W Parking: Fees and Charges...... 142W Taxation: Bingo ...... 192W Railways: Franchises ...... 142W Taxation: Company Cars ...... 192W Renewable Energy: EU Law...... 142W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 132W Roads: Accidents ...... 143W Employment and Support Allowance: Chronic Roads: EU Action...... 143W Fatigue Syndrome...... 132W Rolling Stock: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 143W Housing Benefit ...... 132W Vehicle Number Plates: Fraud...... 144W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 133W National Employment Savings Trust Scheme: TREASURY ...... 189W Shipping...... 134W Building Societies: Regulation...... 189W National Insurance ...... 134W Civil Society Organisations: Taxation ...... 190W Unemployed People ...... 134W Corporation Tax: Businesses...... 190W Universal Credit...... 134W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 17 May 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 135] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice

House of Lords Reform (Draft Bill) [Col. 155] Statement—(Deputy Prime Minister)

Fourth Carbon Budget [Col. 176] Statement—(Chris Huhne)

Dangerous Driving (Maximum Sentence) [Col. 192] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Karl Turner)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Localism Bill (Ways and Means) [Col. 194] Motion—(Robert Neill)—agreed to

Localism Bill (Programme) (No. 2) [Col. 195] Motion—(Greg Clark)—agreed to

Localism Bill [Col. 198] As amended, considered

Public Health Observatories [Col. 314] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Social Care Services [Col. 1WH] Religious Education [Col. 27WH] Forensic Science Service [Col. 51WH] Problem Gambling [Col. 60WH] Public Sector Jobs (Grimsby) [Col. 69WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 7WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 109W] [see index inside back page]