Vol. 736 Monday No. 291 23 April 2012

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Deaths of Members Questions Finance: Equity Markets Social Tourism Immigration: Eurostar Workers’ Memorial Day House of Lords Reform Statement Business of the House Motion on Standing Orders Canterbury City Council Bill Leeds City Council Bill Nottingham City Council Bill Reading Borough Council Bill Motions to Resolve City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL] City of Westminster Bill [HL] Transport for London Bill [HL] Motions to Resolve Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Commons Reasons and Amendments

Grand Committee Health: Pancreatic Cancer Housing: Flats Armed Forces: Personnel Questions for Short Debate

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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Lord Myners: My Lords, on 3 November in the House of Lords other place, the Leader of the House, the right honourable Sir George Young, said that the Government were Monday, 23 April 2012. considering methods by which shareholders could become 2.30 pm members of board remuneration committees. In this House on 30 January, the noble Baroness said that she Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells. would welcome employee representatives on board committees. Do those continue to be the Government’s Deaths of Members positions and, if so, when will we see some action? Announcement Baroness Wilcox: On the Government’s view on shareholder/worker representation on company boards 2.36 pm and committees, we decided not to include such proposals The Lord Speaker (Baroness D’Souza): My Lords, I in the packet of measures for greater transparency. regret to inform the House of the deaths of the noble However, Professor Kay’s independent report will inform Lord, Lord Brett, on 29 March and of the noble Lord, all the Government’s judgments from this point. Lord Ashley of Stoke, on 20 April. On behalf of the House, I extend our deepest condolences to the families Lord Razzall: My Lords, although I totally respect and friends of the noble Lords. the view of the noble Baroness on premature discussion of the Kay report, does she not agree—a point with Finance: Equity Markets which I am sure the previous noble Lord would agree— that if markets are to take a longer-term view of Question investments, the fund management industry needs to change its method of remuneration so that fund managers 2.37 pm are not rewarded by the short-term performance of Asked By Viscount Hanworth the companies in which they invest?

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Baroness Wilcox: My noble friend is right. We are they have made of the findings of the Kay review of looking at how the long-term proposals can be best United Kingdom equity markets and long-term served. Short-termism can be very advantageous, but decision-making; and whether they intend to take it can also be dangerous in the long term, and we are any consequential action. only too delighted to support him in his view.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Lord Peston: My Lords— Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): My Lords, the Kay review’s interim report, published in February, presented a discussion on a Lord Naseby: My Lords— wide range of issues highlighted by respondents to the review’s call for evidence. It did not include any firm Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, the noble conclusions or recommendations. We expect Professor Lord, Lord Peston, will realise that there have already Kay to make the recommendations in his final report been two opening questions from the Labour Benches. in the summer and it would not be appropriate for the It is now only fair that we go to the Conservatives. Government to prejudice Professor Kay’s findings ahead of the final report. Lord Naseby: My Lords, does my noble friend not recognise—I am sure that she does—that in times of Viscount Hanworth: I am surprised by the Minister’s low interest rates investors look for short-term and appraisal of the Kay report. However, will she concede long-term reports, and that they therefore as a whole that the rules of corporate government in the UK are look forward to the report from Professor Kay and in need of drastic revision? Does she not recognise the recognise that very little was done by the previous virtue of restricting the voting rights of shareholders Government to address this issue? who have long-term interests in companies in which they have invested, and is it not clear to her that the Baroness Wilcox: My noble friend puts it extremely advisory role of shareholders on remuneration gives well. Of course short-termism and long-term planning them insufficient powers to constrain the exorbitant go together. These are difficult times. We need to do executive awards that we have seen in recent times? the very best that we can. It is worth remembering that the United Kingdom has a world-leading corporate Baroness Wilcox: My Lords, as the noble Viscount governance and company law regime. The World Bank will know, the review forms a key part of the action rates the United Kingdom as the best place in Europe taken following the department’s A Long-Term Focus and the fifth best in the world for doing business. It is for Corporate Britain: A Call for Evidence, which was vital that the UK continues to be seen as world-leading published in October 2010. We are exploring the issues in corporate governance. of economic short-termism in the UK alongside executive pay and narrative reporting. Of course we are concerned. Lord Peston: I did not give way because I was under We have put forward this independent investigation by the impression that the coalition was still part of the Professor Kay so that the very points that the noble Government. Whatever the state of play is on that side Lord has mentioned will be addressed. of the House, is not the best performing economy in 1543 Finance: Equity Markets[LORDS] Social Tourism 1544

[LORD PESTON] open mind about future tourism strategies. Our current Europe Germany, to take an obvious example? Short- priority is to encourage the potential that tourism termism is frowned upon in Germany, where the gives to help the growth of our economy. shareholders are committed to the firms in which they hold shares in the longer term, as are the workers. We Baroness Rendell of Babergh: My Lords, I thank the advised the Germans immediately after we won the Minister for her Answer. Is she aware that there are Second World War. They ended up rich and we ended more than 2 million families in the United Kingdom— up a comparative economic disaster. Is it not time the about 7 million people—who never enjoy a holiday Government stopped holding back from taking a view and who will probably never have one in their whole on this and actually started, as my noble friend Lord lives? Is she also aware that while social tourism has Myners said, to do something? never had official recognition or been integrated into tourism policy in this country, in the European Union, Baroness Wilcox: I am interested to hear the noble several countries integrate it—notably France and Spain, Lord’s question. In the more than a decade in which but also Portugal, Greece, Germany and Italy. his party was in power, it did absolutely nothing to advance from the position after the Second World War that he quotes. Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, asked a similar Question in February The Clerk of the Parliaments: Baroness— 2010. I know she is a redoubtable campaigner on social tourism and is patron of the Family Holiday Lord Young of Norwood Green: Either I was too Association. The Answer, which was very succinct, slow or someone else was too hasty. I am advised that said that, the Kay report does not address the question of employee “the Government understand the value of access to leisure and shareholders. Does that mean that the Government tourism activities”— will reconsider their previous statements on employee and we are aware of the 2 million who never have shareholders? holidays. It continued: “By providing support for those who need it most, we are Baroness Wilcox: As I have said and as I am happy committed to a society where everyone can engage in leisure to repeat, this is an independent report by Professor activities, including holidays, if they wish. A good example is our Kay. He is able to say what he likes on the whole of policy of free admission to many national museums and galleries”.— this subject and we look forward to what he recommends. [Official Report, 8/2/10; col. 478.] The noble Baroness asked about Europe. The The Earl of Erroll: The challenge is how one incentivises Governments of some European countries, notably people for longer-term thinking. The trouble is that if France and Belgium, take an interventionist approach the quickest way of turning a fast profit in order to to social tourism by directly funding or subsidising maximise one’s share options is to axe longer-term people to take holidays. Such countries take the view research and development, there will be no benefit to that holidays are a right. Britain in the longer term. One sees that happening too often. There are two sorts of shareholders and Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, would the unfortunately the bigger lot are in there for the short Government consider setting up a working group to term as well for investment purposes. consider the social and economic benefits of social tourism? Baroness Wilcox: The noble Earl is quite right. We sell ourselves short if do not invest in the future and do not look at R&D. It is an important part of Baroness Rawlings: I know that the noble Baroness, anyone’s balance sheets, certainly in the FTSE 100, Lady Massey, was on the all-party group on social and I am happy to agree with him. tourism. The Government were looking at this, but have not pursued it further. We are keeping an open mind and are aware of the European Calypso programme. Social Tourism Question Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, I declare an interest 2.43 pm as chairman of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions and of the all-party tourism group. The Asked by Baroness Rendell of Babergh proposed tax changes on air passenger duty, philanthropic To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they giving to our great museums and galleries, restoration will incorporate social tourism policies, such as the work for our major cathedrals, churches and historic provision of holidays by the Family Holiday properties and on static caravans all potentially have a Association for people living on a low income, in negative impact on our very important tourism industry. future tourism strategies. Given that DCMS is a sponsoring ministry for tourism, could my noble friend tell the House whether it had Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, the Government support any discussions before the implementation of the ideas the work carried out by organisations such as the of these tax changes? Family Holiday Association which provides holidays for families who would not normally be able to afford Baroness Rawlings: The noble Lord asks a very a break away from home, but we do not hold the view relevant question. Regarding the tax changes, they are that holidays are a right. We do, however, keep an still very much in discussion. We are well aware that 1545 Social Tourism[23 APRIL 2012] Immigration: Eurostar 1546 they have an effect on tourism and on many of the Brussels, Lille, Disneyland Paris and anywhere except museums and galleries and all the charities that are Paris have to queue to get through immigration for involved with this. This is partly covered by the Treasury, between half an hour and one hour at St Pancras? I but DCMS is very much aware of all this. have queued twice and I saw lots of families travelling from Disneyland Paris, of whom probably 99 per cent Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: When 2 million people were British, having to queue for an hour, which is do not get a holiday at all and those who are in the top rather hard on them. Why cannot the immigration tax bracket are now getting £45,000 a year extra and service process passports on the train after the passengers will be able to go on more skiing holidays and have left Lille, as it used to? Mediterranean holidays, how can we all be in it together? Will the noble Baroness not listen for once to what is Lord Henley: My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, being said by knowledgeable people in this House, the ideal would be to process the passports at Brussels, take it away and do something about it? which we try to do for seven of the 10 or 11 trains a day that go from there, stopping at Lille, that do not Baroness Rawlings: Social tourism is for the less allow people to buy casual tickets. The noble Lord well off. The Government are involved with the Family knows of the so-called Lille loophole, which we want Fund, a registered charity covering the whole of the to plug. As he has said, one solution would be to have UK and mainly funded by the national Governments staff on the train. We believe that that would be of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. unnecessarily expensive and would not be cost-effective. The funding from all four Governments amounted to We are talking about only three trains a day being £35 million, and included £27 million from England. affected by the Lille loophole. We think that we can The Clerk of the Parliaments: Lord Berkeley. continue to negotiate with the Brussels authorities to get them to allow us to do all the checks on all the Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: I am sorry, we are trains, including the three on which casual tickets are being a bit slow on this side. Does the Minister accept allowed to be bought, at Brussels as would be appropriate. the educational benefits of children and families travelling outside their own confined communities? Does she Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, has the Minister recognise the role that that might play in raising the been able to visit British Transport Police operations aspirations of young people? Will she agree to talk to at St Pancras to look at what happens in relation to her ministerial colleagues in the Department for Education child trafficking? In a recent debate, he indicated that about the contribution that they can play in facilitating he would like to do so. My noble friend Lady Doocey holidays for those too poor to afford a family break? pointed out that a number of simple steps could be taken to protect unaccompanied children coming into Baroness Rawlings: The noble Baroness raises a this country, including checks on the identity of such very good point. Such travel does raise the aspirations children and on the people collecting them, and a of children. Through our changes to the education dedicated space on the train. Has he been able to and welfare system, we hope to overcome barriers to follow any of those up? social mobility by giving families the power and resources to be able to go on holiday if they choose. Lord Henley: My Lords, I have not yet been able to visit St Pancras but I certainly hope to do so. My Immigration: Eurostar noble friend’s question is going slightly wide of the Question Question on the Order Paper, but it is valuable in that it points to the need not only to maintain appropriate 2.50 pm security to provide the proper checks and safeguards Asked By Lord Berkeley for those who potentially are being child trafficked but to be able to do that in as user-friendly a manner as To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action possible so that the complaints to which the noble they are taking to enable Eurostar to resume regular Lord, Lord Berkeley, referred do not happen as well. services between Brussels and Lille while avoiding any delays caused by immigration control being Baroness Goudie: Following on from my noble friend’s conducted at St Pancras. question, just before the Recess when we had a debate The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): on human trafficking relating to Eurostar, I asked the My Lords, there has been no suspension of regular Minister whether the Government would look at Eurostar services between Brussels and London which negotiating with the Eurostar authorities and the company also stop at Lille. Following misuse of Brussels to Lille which runs it to have the same arrangements as we tickets by those seeking to avoid UK border checks, have with airlines. Airlines are fined for bringing through Eurostar has restricted the sale of tickets to casual children and adults who are to be human trafficked. travellers to three trains a day. Only these services are The Minister promised to look at this and we have not subject to routine immigration checks at St Pancras. yet received a reply. We seek to keep delays to a minimum. Lord Henley: My Lords, I will make sure that a Lord Berkeley: I am grateful to the noble Lord for reply comes to the noble Baroness in due course. his response but is he aware that the consequence of Obviously, we continue to negotiate on these matters all this is that passengers coming into the UK from with Eurostar. I should point out that Eurostar is a 1547 Immigration: Eurostar[LORDS] Workers’ Memorial Day 1548

[LORD HENLEY] Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am a little private company and we cannot order it to close the disturbed at the Minister’s complacency that we have so-called Lille loophole with which we are trying to got three years to sort this out. After all, the Government deal. Certainly, we will try to get to other matters and have had two years to sort out a range of problems, will negotiate accordingly. and the problems are getting worse rather than better. It is a very serious concern to all of us that a service Lord Bradshaw: Will the Minister turn his mind to that we are all proud of, the Channel Tunnel service, the situation developing as regards trains from Germany may in fact prove to be less advantageous to the which stop at several places before going into the travelling public in future because of these difficulties tunnel? The same problem that applies to Lille will over passport checks. I hear what he says about additional apply to a lot of other stations on the continent. Better expense, but if the expense is not borne by the service, arrangements need to be made. it is borne by the travelling passenger having to wait for hours at the receiving station, St Pancras. Can he Lord Henley: I am very grateful to my noble friend look at this issue with some urgency and produce a for raising that point. I understand that the German solution to it? railways are already planning this and that there might be services from late 2015, so we have some time. He is Lord Henley: I commend the noble Lord on the right to point to the problems because of the confines urgency with which he got to his feet, along with his of the concourse at St Pancras and other places, and colleagues on the opposition Front Bench. They have the need to make sure that we can sort this matter out obviously been well rested by their three weeks off. in the country of origin. That is relatively easy when We are not complacent on this issue. All I am you are talking about Brussels, Lille and London. It is saying is that there is a serious problem. Part of the considerably harder in the case of trains coming from problem relates to the design of St Pancras and getting a number of different stations in Germany. At that the passport checks done there. We would therefore point different options will have to be looked at, but like to have the checks done at the point of exit. we have at least three years to do so. Obviously that problem is going to be made more difficult once one has trains coming in from Germany Lord Grenfell: My Lords, I declare an interest, and other places. At that point, we might have to look having been through the tunnel over 1,500 times, again at having checks done on the trains. As I said— getting to work here and going home again, and although the noble Lord has not been that speedy—we indeed having lived to tell the tale. The Minister said have three years to do this because we are not likely to that the Government would be trying to set up a see trains coming in from Germany until the end system whereby the border agency’s immigration controls of 2015. would be conducted in Brussels. He must be aware that this system works extremely well in Paris; it saves Workers’ Memorial Day a lot of time and there is absolutely no delay arriving Question in St Pancras. I hope that he will look into this and tell us what the problem is. They are very friendly people. 2.59 pm This morning when I came through I was asked by the Asked By Lord McKenzie of Luton immigration officer what I was planning to do with the House of Lords Reform Bill. I declined to share To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they my views with him, in the same way that at the have to mark Workers’ Memorial Day on 28 April. moment I decline to share my views with the House on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department that question. for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My Lords, the Government extend their sympathy to all those for Lord Henley: I commend the noble Lord on his whom Workers’ Memorial Day is especially poignant. diligence in attending this House and the frequency It is right to commemorate those killed, injured or with which he has come through the tunnel. The made ill through work. The day also highlights the system in Brussels works pretty well for most trains, in importance of good health and safety in the workplace. that most people go through the appropriate border The Government continue to recognise Workers’Memorial security checks. The problem is that a number of Day and consider that families and friends of those people use Brussels to Lille as a commuter line rather affected, and organisations representing workers, are than what it was originally designed for, a Brussels to best placed to decide how the day should be commemorated. London line. Those people are exempted from going through passport checks by the Brussels authorities Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I thank the and we cannot order them so to do; that is under EU Minister for his reply, which I take to be personally rules. We therefore had to seek with Eurostar some sympathetic to Workers’ Memorial Day—which, as he solution to that problem, which does not arise in the said, is about remembering those who have been damaged case of those coming from Paris. There is similarly not by health and safety failures, and renewing the case for a problem coming from London because, as the noble good health and safety provision. The Minister will Lord knows, we do not allow people to use London to have been availed of the report of Professor Löfstedt, Ashford as a commuter route. It is the use of Brussels which the Government commissioned. It states that, to Lille as a commuter route on that service that “the vast majority of employers and employer organisations causes the problem. acknowledged the importance of health and safety regulation in their responses to the call for evidence and felt that, in general, the The Clerk of the Parliaments: Lord McKenzie— regulations were broadly fit for purpose. During the course of my 1549 Workers’ Memorial Day[23 APRIL 2012] House of Lords Reform 1550 review, I have neither seen nor heard any evidence to suggest that of training and of safety representatives that is well there is a case for radically altering or stripping back current worth considering? I am, of course, talking about the health and safety regulation”. TUC. Does he not think it a good idea to have some Does the Minister agree with that? If he does, will consultation with the TUC on these matters? he encourage the Prime Minister to refrain from such unhelpful utterances as “killing off the monster of Lord Freud: My Lords, I am pleased to say that health and safety”, and to act responsibly in these alongside my colleague Chris Grayling I wrote to the matters? general-secretary of the TUC on the matter of Workers’ Memorial Day. We are in regular contact with him on Lord Freud: My Lords, we are very supportive of a large number of matters, and this is one of them. the report by Professor Löfstedt. He made the point in the report that legislation, Lord Wigley: My Lords, on the question of “can contribute to the confusion, through its overall structure, a mesothelioma, to which the Minister referred a moment lack of clarity, or apparent duplication in some areas”. ago, can he indicate whether the ideas which he will be That is why we are driving through reforms designed working on over the coming period will require legislation? to make the system easy to understand, easy to administer If so, why are the Government not taking advantage and easy to enforce. of the legislation that is currently going through this House? Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the cruellest industrial diseases is the Lord Freud: My Lords, it is possible, depending on asbestos-related lung cancer mesothelioma, which can the outcome, that we will need primary legislation on strike up to 40 years after exposure and has thus far mesothelioma. However these things take time and we claimed the lives of 30,000 workers? Is not one of the will have to structure any solution in consultation with best things that the Government can do to support the various stakeholders in order to get there. There is such workers is to respond positively to the all-party not time at the moment to attach any relevant legislation calls made in both Houses for mesothelioma victims quite as rapidly as the noble Lord suggests. not to have to face surrendering up to 25 per cent of their much-needed compensation to pay legal costs— Lord German: My Lords, Professor Löftstedt said compensation which they need in facing the last nine in his report that there needs to be general community months to one year of their lives? support as regards an understanding of risk. I therefore welcome the Government’s establishment of the Lord Freud: I am spending considerable time on independent challenge committee which allows the mesothelioma currently and I hope to sort out the real public to make a challenge when they see a risk that problem, which is the large number of people suffering they believe is not appropriate. Can the Minister tell from the illness who are getting no compensation at all us how that body will be independent given that its because they cannot trace who was insuring them. I chair is also the chair of the HSE, and whether it will hope to see some real progress in this area—looking at not require a wider reporting mechanism than that the whole area of mesothelioma, both those who have currently envisaged? been traced and those who are untraced—and to report back on that in the not too distant future, Lord Freud: My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely certainly before the summer. right in the sense that it is often not so much what the regulation says as the way in which it is applied and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, when I was used, and often those who are most shocked by how responsible for health and safety as a Minister I asked the regulations are applied are those in the HSE. This to see all the regulations applying to small businesses. is a really valuable element of our society which has There was a three-month delay, and when I asked why, led to our having the lowest level of fatalities from I was told that the Health and Safety Executive would workplace accidents in Europe. It is important that we have to hire a pantechnicon to send them round. Is the concentrate this effort on where it really does save Prime Minister not absolutely right to emphasise people’s lives. I think that the HSE does have an the importance of the culture of health and safety in interest in making sure that that happens. the workplace, rather than masses of regulations that people cannot possibly be expected to absorb and comprehend? House of Lords Reform Statement Lord Freud: Yes, my Lords, the Prime Minister is right: legislation must be comprehensible to people if 3.08 pm it is to be useful. That process is currently under way, The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord and we aim to reduce the legislation by up to half by Strathclyde): My Lords, before formally moving the 2014. We are confident that that can be done in a way Business of the House Motion on the Order Paper, I that actually enhances the effectiveness of our health should like to make a short business Statement about and safety regime. forthcoming business. The whole House is now well aware that the Joint Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I thank the Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill Minister for his sympathetic response. However, is he published its long-awaited report this morning. The not aware that there is one organisation which represents Government are not only deeply grateful to the committee organised employees in this country that has a system but would like to single out its chairman, the noble 1551 House of Lords Reform[LORDS] House of Lords Reform 1552

[LORD STRATHCLYDE] We have been told that the Deputy Prime Minister Lord, Lord Richard, for the time, effort and expertise is saying that he “won’t go to war” over Lords reform that have gone into the preparation of this report. I and the Prime Minister spoke of the issue on the know that the Deputy Prime Minister and his ministerial “Today” programme this morning. We have been told colleagues will be considering the report with great all this and more, but we do not have an opportunity care before proposing a Bill to the Cabinet. to discuss these things today in this House. Of course, I am equally conscious that noble Lords around the we will all need time to examine and consider the House are eager to debate the report at the earliest report of the Joint Committee and the alternative opportunity. I have considered this with the usual report of the minority group of the Joint Committee. I channels and, although there will be plenty of have read both reports and think that they are excellent opportunities to debate the report from the Joint and extremely important contributions to the debate Committee, subject to the completion of our legislative on the future of your Lordships’ House. I thank the business by the end of Thursday of this week, I noble Lord, Lord Richard, and all those involved, for propose that we should start with a debate on the Joint their hard work and commitment. Committee’s report, led by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, I urge all Members of this House and people beyond on Monday of next week. to read and study both reports closely because we I should add that should the Queen’s Speech on need to get reform right, as the noble Baroness, Lady 9 May include a Bill to reform the composition of this Shephard of Northwold, said today. We on these House, there will be a further opportunity to debate Benches regret that there was not a more formal the Government’s proposals in light of the Joint Statement on these issues today, but we look forward Committee’s report in the course of the debate on the to the debate in a week’s time. humble Address—that is to say, in about a fortnight’s time. These two imminent occasions for debate may Lord Laming: My Lords, I am sure that all members well be followed by others over the course of the next of the Cross-Bench group wish to pay tribute to the Session, for which I know a few noble Lords may be noble Lord, Lord Richard, and all the members of his limbering up. I hope that we will manage to complete team—the committee that did this study—and indeed our legislative business by Thursday so I look forward to the work of all the members in producing the to next week’s debate. In the mean time, I take the extremely helpful alternative report. One waits for one opportunity of reminding the House that copies of report and two come along. This is a subject of immense the Joint Committee’s report are available in the Printed importance to the citizens of our society. We owe it to Paper Office and, most importantly, on the Parliament them to make sure that Parliament is as effective as website. possible in holding the Executive to account and in scrutinising future legislation. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful I am sure that members of the Cross-Bench group, to the noble Lord the Leader for his business Statement who I have not had the chance to consult on this, are and I welcome the fact that the Leader, with the grateful to the usual channels and to the Leader for his agreement of the usual channels, is hoping to make Statement because we think that the report should be time available for a debate on the report of the Joint considered very carefully.I am sure that the arrangements Committee on the Government’s draft House of Lords for a debate next Monday will be welcomed by Cross- Reform Bill. I am sure that the debate will also cover Benchers. the alternative report, which was published today. However, I am sorry that the Leader of the House has Lord Tyler: My Lords, I ask my noble friend whether chosen not to make a fuller Statement on the Joint it is the intention of the usual channels to permit the Committee report today. rising time for the House on Monday to be rather later Before the Recess, I urged the Government both to than usual so that we can demonstrate that we in your make time for a debate on further reform of your Lordships’ House are very good at scrutiny. In doing Lordships’ House, which the noble Lord has done, so, perhaps I may also say how much as a member of and to recognise the fact that Members of your Lordships’ the committee I appreciated the chairmanship of the House would wish today, as the House returns from a noble Lord, Lord Richard. However, it is a very big prolonged Recess, to have an initial discussion on report and if all of us who have different views, even these issues. I recognise the fact that we will have many among and within the parties, have only a few seconds debates on this issue in the House in the weeks and to make our point on Monday I feel this would not be months to come. doing due deference or paying proper regard to the I think that this House, and indeed many beyond comprehensive report of the noble Lord. Therefore, the House, will find it hard to understand why all sorts can my noble friend let us please go to a later time on of people and organisations have been debating these Monday evening. I feel sure there will be great enthusiasm matters today, and yet, apart from the noble Lord’s in your Lordship’s House to go through the night, if brief business Statement, this House is not afforded necessary, on this issue. an opportunity today to speak further about the issue. Indeed, the Leader was on “The Daily Politics” show 3.15 pm and in recent days we have heard many things about a Lord Grocott: My Lords, in welcoming as I certainly revolt by Conservative MPs on the 1922 Committee. do the fact that the usual channels have set aside a day We have seen various reports of a revolt being joined for this report, I ask for one further service to the first by MPs, then by parliamentary Private Secretaries— House from the Leader of the House. He has already many things have been happening. referred to the fact that there are actually two reports. 1553 House of Lords Reform[23 APRIL 2012] Nottingham City Council Bill 1554

There is an alternative view in an alternative report A noble Lord: One never turned up. signed by 12 of the 25 members of the committee. If my maths is correct that means that if, you exclude the Lord Strathclyde: It may be that one never turned chairman, that is half of the committee—in my personal up, but he was still a member of the committee. I am opinion, the best half of the committee. Can the sure that the alternative report will be discussed and Leader of the House ensure that the alternative report, debated, but I am afraid that I cannot commit the as well as the full report, is made available in the Printed Paper Office to publishing it. After all, it is a Printed Paper Office to all Members? I do not think privately commissioned report, not a parliamentary that facility is available at present. report. I am sure that those who commissioned and wrote it will find it very easy to disseminate it themselves. Lord Hughes of Woodside: Can the Leader of the Given the authority that they possess, I would be House confirm that the House is to prorogue on amazed if they were not able to do so. Monday? As for what was said by my noble friend Lord Tyler, I have not considered the rising time of the debate on Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, may I just the report. Of course, much will depend on how many ask another question? While this is a matter of great noble Lords wish to put down their names to speak. importance, there are other matters. Will the Leader However, I see no reason for us to rise early on that of the House confirm that it will be a full day’s sitting day, and perhaps we can just take a view during the on Monday and that the debate will be preceded by course of the week depending on how many names are Oral Questions and that if there are any urgent matters put down, and given the opportunity that there will be that Members wish to raise they can raise them under to speak later on in the month. the normal procedures of the House? It is right that we should debate it. As the Convenor of the Cross Benches, the noble Lord, Lord Laming, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: May I ask my noble said, this is an important matter, which people want to friend a question, although it may be a naive question? have debated and discussed. As for the simple sailor, Given that we had a manifesto commitment to seek a and my naive friend, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, I consensus on House of Lords reform and given that understand precisely why they might think, after nine the Joint Committee is split completely down the months of deliberation, that there is still division and middle, is that not the end of the matter? confusion on this issue. I think the Government should be congratulated on trying to cut through this to bring Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, on St George’s forward to Parliament something with clarity and day, and falling back on the line that I am very much a vision. Parliament will then be able to decide what it simple sailor, I am confused by the fact that half the wishes to do with it. committee effectively has an alternative view. I agree with some of the statements by other noble Lords that Lord Peston: Before the noble Lord sits down, I it seems to make a nonsense of this process. I am also hate to introduce a cynical comment into this very very concerned, as I look in a simple way at next week, serious matter, but will it not be nothing short of a that there seems to be very little time in which to have miracle if any noble Lord can think of anything a sensible debate about this issue. original on this subject when we debate it next Monday? Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I am not at all surprised Lord Wright of Richmond: For the avoidance of by any of the interventions that have been raised doubt, I am sure that the noble Lord is aware that today. I am sorry that the noble Baroness is disappointed copies of the alternative report are freely available in that there should not be a Statement. We have had the the Library. report for only a few hours and, after all, we are House that likes to have debates when we are informed. I Business of the House thought that it would be better to give all noble Lords the opportunity to read the report before debating it Motion on Standing Orders next week. I am at pains to suggest that next week will not be 3.20 pm the only opportunity to discuss this report, or indeed Moved By Lord Strathclyde the whole issue of reform. I am not one of those who That, in the event of the Sunday Trading (London wish to leak the contents of the Queen’s Speech, so I Olympic and Paralympic Games) Bill [HL] being will not pre-empt it, but if a Bill on this subject were to read a second time, Standing Order 46 (No two be announced there would be plenty of time during stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed the course of the Motion for an humble Address to with on Thursday 26 April to allow the Bill to be debate it further. That will be in two weeks’ time. taken through its remaining stages that day. Between now and the Summer Recess, I am sure that there will be other opportunities if that is required. All Motion agreed. that is to say that Members of the House do not need to rush to put their names down next Monday. The Canterbury City Council Bill House will not prorogue next Monday. It will sit at the normal time for the normal business to be taken in the normal way. Leeds City Council Bill As for the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, I think that there were 26 members of the Joint Committee. Nottingham City Council Bill 1555 Reading Borough Council Bill[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1556

Reading Borough Council Bill this Session on 24 January 2011, should have leave to suspend any further proceedings on the Bill in Motions to Resolve order to proceed with it, if they think fit, in the next 3.21 pm Session of Parliament according to the provisions of Private Business Standing Order 150A (Suspension Moved By The Chairman of Committees of Bills). Canterbury City Council Bill City of Westminster Bill [HL] That this House resolves that the promoters of That this House resolves that the promoters of the Canterbury City Council Bill, which was originally the City of Westminster Bill [HL], which was originally introduced in the House of Commons in Session introduced in this House in Session 2008-09 on 2007-08 on 22 January 2008, should have leave to 22 January 2009, should have leave to suspend any suspend any further proceedings on the Bill in further proceedings on the Bill in order to proceed order to proceed with it, if they think fit, in the next with it, if they think fit, in the next Session of Session of Parliament according to the provisions Parliament according to the provisions of Private of Private Business Standing Order 150A (Suspension Business Standing Order 150A (Suspension of Bills). of Bills). Transport for London Bill [HL] Leeds City Council Bill That this House resolves that the promoters That this House resolves that the promoters of of the Transport for London Bill [HL], which was the Leeds City Council Bill, which was originally originally introduced in this House in this introduced in the House of Commons in Session Session on 24 January 2011, should have leave to 2007-08 on 22 January 2008, should have leave to suspend any further proceedings on the Bill in suspend any further proceedings on the Bill in order to proceed with it, if they think fit, in the next order to proceed with it, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament according to the provisions Session of Parliament according to the provisions of Private Business Standing Order 150A (Suspension of Private Business Standing Order 150A (Suspension of Bills). of Bills). Motions agreed, and a message was sent to the Commons. Nottingham City Council Bill That this House resolves that the promoters of Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of the Nottingham City Council Bill, which was originally Offenders Bill introduced in the House of Commons in Session Commons Reasons and Amendments 2007-08 on 22 January 2008, should have leave to suspend any further proceedings on the Bill in 3.22 pm order to proceed with it, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament according to the provisions Motion A of Private Business Standing Order 150A (Suspension Moved by Lord McNally of Bills). That this House do not insist on its Amendment 1 Reading Borough Council Bill to which the Commons have disagreed for their That this House resolves that the promoters of Reason 1A. the Reading Borough Council Bill, which was originally 1A Because it would alter the financial arrangements introduced in the House of Commons in Session made by the Commons, and the Commons do not offer 2007-08 on 22 January 2008, should have leave to any further Reason, trusting that this reason may be suspend any further proceedings on the Bill in deemed sufficient. order to proceed with it, if they think fit, in the next Session of Parliament according to the provisions The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord of Private Business Standing Order 150A (Suspension McNally): My Lords, today the House has the opportunity of Bills). to consider the Commons reasons in response to the amendments passed by this House during its consideration Motions agreed, and a message was sent to the Commons. of this Bill. We have engaged in complex, informed and sometimes passionate debate on a wide range of City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL] issues that are of fundamental importance. In so doing, this House has exercised its rights and responsibility City of Westminster Bill [HL] as a revising and advisory Chamber. I would hope that, in turn, the Government and the House of Commons Transport for London Bill [HL] have responded attentively and constructively to the Motions to Resolve opinions of this House. In addition, my ministerial colleagues and I have had numerous meetings with 3.21 pm individual Peers and interest groups. We have listened, Moved By The Chairman of Committees and we have amended. Before I deal with the details of Motion A, I would City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL] like to remind the House of some of the steps that we That this House resolves that the promoters of have taken to respond to its concerns and to make this the City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL], a better Bill. From the start, our guiding principles which was originally introduced in this House in have been to decide what kinds of case need public 1557 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1558 funding and what alternative routes are suitable for We have rehearsed the arguments at great length others. It is not all about cost savings, although they and in great depth. We are about to reflect on the are clearly a vital factor; it is also about what kind of House of Commons’ opinion of your Lordships’ justice system we want for the future. amendments, and I will be asking the House to agree with the reasons of the House of Commons. I hope Successive Governments have concluded that the that this House will give good weight to that opinion. provision of legal aid in the current structure is too As I have said, we have listened and responded to the broadly drawn, and it encourages court-based litigation opinions of this House, which now has a responsibility and the engagement of professional lawyers as a first, to listen to the clear and settled view of the House of rather than a last, resort. With that in mind, the test Commons. that the Government have applied to amendments in both Houses is whether they strengthen or weaken the Lord Higgins: If the noble Lord will allow me, he is principles behind the Bill—what I have described many saying that great attention has been given to the various times as its central architecture. We have accepted issues that have been raised, for example by the noble amendments where they truly improve the Bill. The Lord, Lord Alton. Is it not the case, however, that on House has done much valuable work in correcting some of these issues there was initially no debate in the omissions and ensuring that the most serious cases Commons at all because it was programmed, and that continue to receive public funding, and I am grateful when the matter returned from this House to the other for the commitment that this House has put into the place the Lords amendments were also programmed—that Bill. is, guillotined—and the debate was not brought to a As I have said, the Government have listened and conclusion in the usual way? have moved in important areas. We have accepted the arguments put forward by, among others, the noble Lord McNally: My Lords, the debates came to a and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, and adopted conclusion in the usual way. I must say that for a the definition of domestic violence used by ACPO. We parliamentarian of the noble Lord’s experience, who have widened the forms of evidence of domestic violence must have carried through quite a few Bills himself on that will be acceptable to secure legal aid funding in timetables and the rest— private law cases, and doubled the time limit within which such evidence may be presented. We have removed Lord Higgins: When I was in the other place, we the power to means-test suspects in police custody, had a very sensible system. If the matter was being and retained legal aid funding for cases involving filibustered or was urgent, we had a half-day debate human trafficking and domestic child abduction. followed by a vote on whether there should be a guillotine. In total contrast, when I was carrying through We have agreed that legal advice and assistance legislation we certainly did not have the system of should be made available to welfare benefit appellants programming from which we are now suffering. whose cases are heard by the Upper Tribunal, the Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court on points of Lord McNally: I will leave it to the Opposition to law. We have committed to doing further work to see explain fully the introductions that they made to how we might provide funding for those appearing timetabling, before the First-tier Tribunal whose case also turns on a point of law, and have retained legal aid for babies who are victims of clinical negligence. We have introduced Lord Cormack: Will my noble friend give way? further measures to put beyond doubt the extent of independence from Ministers enjoyed by the director Lord McNally: No. Well, I will take one more from of legal aid casework. him. Carry on.

Many concerns have been listened to and many Lord Cormack: I am most grateful for that flattering amendments made, but we have not been able to giving way. I point out to my noble friend that it was satisfy every demand. We have now reached the stage indeed a Labour Government who brought in automatic where the Government ask both Houses to disagree timetabling, but before the coalition Government were with amendments that, in our opinion, would undermine elected Sir George Youngand others gave an assurance the rationale and principles underlying the Bill. The that any Conservative Government—or presumably Government cannot accept amendments that use scarce any Government led by Conservatives—would not resources on lower priority needs where other funding have timetabling. We still have it. is available, where conflicts could be resolved by other means or where people can reasonably make provisions 3.30 pm themselves. The Government have demonstrated their commitment to the not-for-profit sector, which does Lord McNally: This is an interesting side issue. such invaluable work, by providing £20 million a year Anybody who has read the debate in the other place for the next two years, in addition to the £16.8 million will see that the amendments passed in this House we have allocated for this year. However, in a time of were thoroughly discussed. austerity, we must make responsible choices about spending public money. We must be rigorous in our Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords— decisions about allocating resources. We cannot rely on unrealistic thinking about alternative methods for Lord McNally: The House is not doing itself much achieving savings. service by this, but do go on. 1559 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1560

Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, on the issue funded legal aid services, and therefore to meet their of parliamentary procedure, is the noble Lord really needs in that regard. Any benefit of such a provision happy that the first four amendments from this place akin to that in Section 4(1) of the Access to Justice Act that the Commons considered had only 26 minutes is simply not present in the context of this Bill. Further, allocated to them? The House of Commons was allowed both amendments conflate access to justice as a fewer than five hours to debate the 11 issues on which constitutional principle with the provision of legal this House defeated the Government and offered its aid. Access to justice means access to the courts, and very earnestly considered advice. does not mean access to a publicly funded lawyer whenever one is sought. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord A further duty to provide unspecified legal services Strathclyde): The Motion before the House is that we must also, in part, serve to muddy the waters and should deal with amendments that have come back create uncertainty in respect of the services which from the House of Commons. If noble Lords wish to might be funded under the Bill. It was said by the have a debate about process and procedure in the noble Lord when moving his original amendment House of Commons they can table questions and that, as a result of the qualifications in it, the amendment, debate the issues. This is not the time for that; this is “does not impose an independent duty which trumps the specific a time to deal with the amendments that we have contents of Part 1”, before us. and that it, “does not require any further expenditure by the Government”.— [Official Report, 5/3/12; col. 1559.] Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, before leaving I am afraid that we cannot agree with this analysis. that point, it was the Minister who raised the question By virtue of introducing a new duty on the Lord of procedure and who said that these matters had Chancellor, a potential cause of action must be created been thoroughly dealt with in another place. The fact where such a duty is said to have not been met. remains that the issue of mesothelioma, which was Therefore by definition, the Lord Chancellor must be quite properly raised by the Minister’s noble friend at risk of being compelled to provide additional, and Lord Higgins, was not debated on Second Reading, in as yet unidentified services, to meet that duty, or the Committee or on Report at all in another place. Had it duty would be a redundant one. This risk is heightened not been for the amendment that your Lordships by the fact that both amendments refer to legal services, passed, it would not have been debated at all in another which are far broader than the legally aided services place. To give it only one hour at that stage and for it that the Bill is intended to provide. I acknowledge that again to be timetabled is indicative of the need to this is the first time for the House to hear that observation. reform not this place but, in light of what we heard Such a scenario would entirely frustrate the Government’s earlier, the other place. intention of bringing certainty and clarity to the range of services that can be funded under legal aid. The Lord McNally: The four interventions, interestingly, amendment also has the potential to create a great have all come from ex-Members of the other place. deal of unhelpful and unnecessary litigation as the Motion A and Amendment 1 in the name of the boundaries of that duty are tested in the administrative noble Lord, Lord Pannick, described by him on Report court. as a purpose clause, reflect that which features in the The Bill’s purpose is clear, as are the Lord Chancellor’s Access to Justice Act 1999. Amendment 1 would place duties under it. Therefore, I ask that this House does a duty on the Lord Chancellor to secure within the not insist on its Amendment 1. The Commons has resources made available and in accordance with Part 1 decided against it and in my opinion the amendment of the Bill that individuals have access to legal services in lieu from the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, will elicit that effectively meet their needs. the same response. Therefore, I urge the noble Lord to Despite what was said in the House of Commons withdraw his Motion. by the shadow Justice Secretary, the basis for the Government’s opposition to this amendment has been Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A) clearly explained in this House. While I am grateful to Moved by Lord Pannick the noble Lord for this new amendment, I am afraid that it has not addressed the issues with the original At end insert “but do propose Amendment 1B as Amendment 1, and the Government oppose the new an amendment in lieu” amendment on the same substantive grounds that we opposed the original construction. In addition to those 1B Page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (1) and insert— issues which I will turn to in a moment, Amendment 1B “(1) The Lord Chancellor shall exercise his powers would remove the duty in Clause 1(1) for the Lord under this Part with a view to securing that individuals Chancellor to secure that legal aid is made available in have access to legal services that effectively meet their accordance with Part 1 of the Bill. needs, subject to the resources which the Lord Chancellor On Report I spoke at length about the technical decides, in his discretion, to make available, and subject issues with incorporating provisions of the Access to to the provisions of this Part.” Justice Bill, where only excluded services are specified, to this Bill, where included services are specified. The Lord Pannick: My Lords, as your Lordships have Bill before us today, if enacted, will represent Parliament’s heard, the amendment that noble Lords approved on clear intention as to which services are to be capable of Report by a majority of 45 votes would state the being made available to people by way of publicly purpose of legal aid: to promote access to legal services 1561 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1562 within the financial resources that are made available beyond any possible doubt that the question of what by the Lord Chancellor and subject to the other financial resources to make available is a matter for provisions in Part 1 of the Bill. The amendment had the discretion of the Lord Chancellor and the Lord its origins in a recommendation from your Lordships’ Chancellor alone. That is what the amendment says Constitution Committee, of which I am a member, beyond any question. It also makes it clear that its and was tabled by noble Lords from all sides of the terms and effect are subject to the provisions of this House—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, the part—in other words, subject to the restrictions in the noble Lord, Lord Hart of Chilton, who is also a Bill on what topics are within the scope of legal aid. member of the Constitution Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, from the government Benches Lord Thomas of Gresford: Can the noble Lord and, of course, me. explain what this amendment therefore adds to the The amendment echoes the wording of Section 4 of provisions in the Bill? That is what puzzles me. the Access to Justice Act 1999, which is the current statutory provision. It is similar to the statutory provisions Lord Pannick: I was coming to that. If the noble that have been found in earlier legislation from 1949 Lord will have a little patience, that was the second onwards. The other place disagreed with this amendment point made in the other place. My first point, which I after a debate that was restricted to 27 minutes—a just want to complete, is that, with great respect, I do point made by the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, a few not accept that this amendment has any financial moments ago. Those 27 minutes to which the other implications whatever. place was restricted concerned not just this amendment The second point made by the Minister in the other but two others approved in this House after Divisions place was that made just now by the noble Lord, Lord and to which we will come. They concern the very Thomas of Gresford. What is the point of this important subjects of the independence of the director amendment? The view taken by noble Lords on Report of legal aid and the mandatory telephone gateway, was that now that legal aid is to be confined by this which we will discuss later this afternoon. All those Bill, it is absolutely vital that we retain in the legislation subjects had to be dealt with in 27 minutes—hardly a statement of principle that the purpose of legal aid is the thorough consideration that the Minister suggested to promote access to justice within the available financial in his opening remarks. resources. That is important for this reason. The The Minister in the other place, Mr Jonathan Djanogly, Government are proposing to limit legal aid by reason and the Minister today have made four main points. of current financial constraints and Parliament is The first, which was emphasised in the other place but accepting that. However, we all hope and expect that has not been mentioned today, is that financial privilege the economy will improve and, when it does, Clause 9(2) was applied to the amendment. Your Lordships will gives the Lord Chancellor a power to modify the know that financial privilege in the other place does substantive provisions of Part 1 to bring matters back not prevent your Lordships asking the other place to within scope. When the economy improves, the case think again about an amendment. Financial privilege for relaxing the temporary limitations on legal aid simply requires that the amendment be varied in this should be considered by reference to principle, and the House from the original amendment. That is why the principle is that stated—I hope uncontroversially—in amendment now before this House is not exactly the this amendment, which is to Clause 1 of the Bill. It is same as that which was approved on Report. vital that this principle is not forgotten by reason of the temporary financial constraints under which we I do not want to make this a debate about financial are all operating, and I can think of no better way of privilege but I hope I may be excused for saying that I preserving the principle than setting it out at the know that many noble Lords were as surprised as I beginning of the Bill. I happily give way to the noble was that financial privilege was applied to Amendment 1. Lord. The original amendment made it very clear that access to legal services would come within the resources Lord Thomas of Gresford: But is not the effect of made available by the Lord Chancellor and in accordance putting this at the beginning of the Bill precisely what with the rest of Part 1, and therefore that amendment the Minister said—that is, it leaves it open to lawyers had no financial implications whatever. to bring applications for judicial review and to ask Your Lordships may also be interested to note that judges to determine whether the financial situation when I made these points to the authorities in the has so improved that the provisions for legal aid other place and I asked for a brief explanation of the should be extended? Is this not just making more work reason for financial privilege being attached to this for lawyers? amendment, because neither I nor the others responsible for tabling this amendment could understand the point, 3.45 pm I was told that no reasons are given for the decision on Lord Pannick: The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of financial privilege. Again, I doubt that I am the only Gresford, again jumps the gun. This is the third point noble Lord who finds it very regrettable that this that was made in the other place, which I was coming House should be told that financial privilege to and will now address— controversially applies to an amendment but noble Lords are not told why that is so. Lord Lester of Herne Hill: I hope I am not jumping However, that is a side-show. In any event, the the gun, but I do not understand from what the noble amendment now before your Lordships responds to Lord has said so far why the principle of maintaining financial privilege, and it does so by making it clear the rule of law, a duty which is imposed on the Lord 1563 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1564

[LORD LESTER OF HERNE HILL] For the sake of a completely illusory financial Chancellor, and a duty to secure access to justice requirement, the Government propose to impair a under the Human Rights Act do not themselves constitutional principle of the first importance which adequately state the general principles within which goes back not just to 1949, as the noble Lord, Lord this Bill needs to be looked at. Pannick, reminded us, but to 1215. That is the principle of equality before the law. It should not be in doubt Lord Pannick: The answer to the noble Lord, Lord that it is the duty of the Lord Chancellor to secure Lester of Herne Hill, is that we are dealing with a Bill equality before the law. We all recognise that there are that specifically relates to legal aid. It is surely appropriate constraints in the present very difficult circumstances to include in a Bill relating to legal aid the purpose of of the economy, and that we face an imperfect situation. legal aid—and to say so in uncontroversial terms. But it must be right to legislate in principle to ensure Nothing is more likely to lead to legal uncertainty—the that, in normal times at the very least—I would contend concern that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, at all times—it is a paramount duty of the Lord has—than that these matters should be left somehow Chancellor to secure equality before the law for all our to be implied, in the context of legal aid, by reference citizens. It is no use the law declaring high principles to the Human Rights Act. That would seem to me of which citizens cannot avail themselves in practice if most unsatisfactory. financial constraints and the lack of support through I turn to the third point: uncertainty. It was a point legal aid mean that they are not able to substantiate that the Minister emphasised this afternoon—uncertainty their rights in the courts. and, as he put it, the spectre of litigation. I find it I praise the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, for persisting difficult to understand this concern, given that the in this cause. I very much hope that the House will amendment makes it clear beyond doubt, in the plainest want to support him once again in inviting the other of language, that it is entirely a matter for the Lord place to think again. Chancellor how much money to provide for legal aid purposes. The amendment makes it clear beyond doubt Lord Woolf: My Lords, I support what the noble that this provision is subject to the detailed provisions Lord, Lord Pannick, has put before us. Doing my very in the Bill which specify what subjects are within best, I have found it very difficult to find any reason scope. why this amendment should not be accepted. Attempting In any event, this concern about litigation is a to rely upon what was said in the other place just does particularly unpersuasive argument in the present context. not wash. If the other place had understood the As I mentioned, the substance of this amendment has purpose of the previous amendment, I do not accept been part of legal aid legislation for many years. If that it could have treated it in the way that it did. I do lawyers were going to make mischief by reference to not need to go into detail about that matter because this type of wording, noble Lords will recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has, with his usual they would have done so by now. clarity, set out the position perfectly obviously. The Finally, the fourth point that has been mentioned situation is as he indicated. by the Minister this afternoon is that the other place In Bills of this nature, it is frequently the practice to is, of course, the elected Chamber and that we should assist those who will subsequently have to apply the defer to its judgment. For my part, I recognise that legislation—or, if I may say so with feeling, interpret there is, of course, force in this argument. Noble Lords the legislation—set out the purpose of the legislation. will wish to reflect carefully on this amendment, as on The Bill makes that purpose clear in so far as there all the other amendments before the House this afternoon, was any doubt about it. There cannot be said to be any before asking the other place to think again. financial commitment involved. I am at a loss to I suggest to noble Lords, however, that this is an understand how the Lord Chancellor, having the occasion—on this amendment certainly—when it is responsibilities that he has for the administration of appropriate to ask the other place to think again. The justice under the Constitutional Reform Act 2005, amendment now before noble Lords addresses the can use that as an excuse for, without justification, concerns expressed by the Minister, Mr Djanogly, in trying to impede the proper consideration of this the other place. There is simply no substance to the amendment. It reflects no credit to the way in which Government’s opposition to this amendment. It raises that office is now being handled for the Lord Chancellor an issue of principle of considerable importance and it to take that position. Every word that the noble involves no financial cost whatever to the Government. Lord, Lord Pannick, has said with regard to the four I beg to move. points that were taken is of substance. I hope that, even now, the Lord Chancellor will consider whether Lord Howarth of Newport: The noble Lord, Lord it is consistent with his responsibilities to take the Pannick, for the avoidance of any doubt whatsoever, position that was adopted by the other place after very has made it clear beyond peradventure in the drafting brief consideration. of this amendment in lieu that what he and the House I remind the Lord Chancellor of the oath that he have sought to achieve contains no threat to the takes when he takes office, which is laid down in Government’s public expenditure plans. The wording the Constitutional Reform Act. I ask him to consider makes it clear that, whether the position that he has now taken is “subject to the resources which the Lord Chancellor decides, in consistent with that oath. Section 17 of the Act requires his discretion, to make available”, him to, the Lord Chancellor shall exercise his powers to secure “swear that in the office of Lord High Chancellor of Great that individuals have access to legal services. Britain I will respect the rule of law … and discharge my duty to 1565 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1566 ensure the provision of resources for the efficient and effective 4pm support of the courts for which I am responsible.” The purpose of the amendment is to give the Lord Lord Thomas of Gresford: I regret that I have to Chancellor scope to do just that. disagree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf—I very rarely do. However, there is a statement of principle I would have thought that the proper course was to in Clause 1: it is that the Lord Chancellor must secure welcome the amendment, having regard to changes in that legal aid is made available in accordance with this the situation that can take place in the future. Again part. That is a very simple, short statement which and again, in the course of consideration of this Bill, it would cause no judge any difficulty whatever in has been said on behalf of the Government that they interpreting the provisions of the Bill. I said in Committee are following the course that they are taking because that the amendment then proposed was meaningless of the financial situation in this country. That argument and added nothing to the Bill. I say precisely the same demands the greatest respect, but as the noble Lord, of the amendment as redrafted. Lord Pannick, has indicated, this amendment does not interfere with the Lord Chancellor doing precisely The amendment adds nothing, except this. I could that. It is said that it may lead to increased litigation. be a very devious lawyer, and I might have a case for If that litigation were to take place, as far as I can which I thought some funding was needed. So I might foresee, it would have to be by way of judicial review apply to the director of legal aid for special funding, and it is well known that judicial review has built-in knowing well that the case for which I am requesting protections to avoid the litigation process being misused. funding is outside the legal aid scheme. The director of The requirement of leave would mean that proceedings legal aid might say, “There is nothing special about which are initiated without cause would have a very this; I am refusing it”. I might then make an application short life indeed. The Government of the day would by way of judicial review to the court, and I would get be entitled to get the assistance of the courts, which legal aid for that: judicial review carries legal aid. So I they would receive, to ensure that there was no misuse would get my money by making an application to the of those proceedings in these circumstances. I suggest court for judicial review to say, “Look at this provision that, if full consideration had been given to this which the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, argues for: it is amendment, it would not originally have been objected broad; it is wide; the circumstances of the country to or objected to now. have improved; it is only reasonable that the director of legal aid should now grant me the funding that I Lord Phillips of Sudbury: Given the noble and need, or that the category of law with which I am now learned Lord’s huge experience in these issues, would concerned should be brought within scope”. That is he kindly tell the House whether he considers that this just one case. Other cases could then be brought amendment does not place any Lord Chancellor in forward in the same way. any jeopardy in respect of judicial review? If that is the case—that is what I understood the noble Lord, Lord Lord Woolf: Will the noble Lord explain how the Pannick, to say—does that not make the provision risk to which he has just referred would be any greater toothless? than that which already exists in the words of Clause 1(1)—that the Lord Chancellor must secure Lord Woolf: No one can anticipate what might that legal aid is made available in accordance with this happen with regard to the conduct of a particular part? Lord Chancellor in the future. However, in regard to the fears that have been expressed, there would be no Lord Thomas of Gresford: It says in terms that it possibility of those being treated as appropriate cases must be in accordance with this part. As the Minister for an application for judicial review on the facts that has explained, the Bill as drafted says what is in scope. could be reasonably expected to occur. The Access to Justice Act 1999 set out what was not in On the purpose of the legislation, I would adopt scope. what was said by the shadow Minister in the other place: that the amendment states a purpose because Baroness Butler-Sloss: I am no expert in administrative the provision is a statement of legislative purpose. law. However, my recollection is that that requires As to having a statement of legislative purpose, in leave of the judge. If it is as spurious a case as the legislation of this nature it is done frequently, not for noble Lord has suggested, I would have thought that it the purpose of providing an enforceable duty but so would be likely to be rejected and that very little legal that it is known what the legislation as a whole is aid, if any, would be involved. intended to do. Lord Thomas of Gresford: Why should one run that Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, the noble Lord who risk? Why should one have applications for judicial moved the amendment as well as the noble Lord, Lord review being made based on the amendment as currently Howarth, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, drafted? This adds nothing to the Bill. All it does is have referred to the purpose of the amendment as the open an avenue for satellite litigation which should not avoidance of doubt. I hope that in his reply the noble be permitted. Lord will explain to the House exactly what is the doubt which the amendment is designed to remove Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, it would be a and which, presumably, the Bill will otherwise create. great disappointment to your Lordships’ House if you If he can answer that question to my satisfaction then were to find that there was unanimity on these Benches. I might vote with him. Until that question is answered, I am not going to disappoint your Lordships: there I would be inclined to vote with the Government. is not. 1567 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1568

[LORD CARLILE OF BERRIEW] perhaps the Minister can help the House. What are the I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick— financial implications if this amendment were accepted? particularly in relation to the second and third parts of The reason given is: his speech—and also with the noble and learned Lord, “Because it would alter the financial arrangements made by Lord Woolf. In answer to my noble friend Lord Thomas the Commons, and the Commons do not offer any further Reason, of Gresford, I would say that Clause 1(1) contains trusting that this reason may be deemed sufficient”. absolutely no statement of principle whatever, whereas If that is the sole basis for rejecting the amendment—or Amendment 1B does contain a statement of principle, if there is any other reason, any other sinister matter, albeit within the financial limits set by the Bill. that the Minister is concerned about—perhaps he will What I really wanted to do is say a few words about tell us. financial privilege. I suspect that there will be other The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has told the House noble Lords who were once Members of another that there are no financial implications to his amendment. place who, like me, have sat on the Reasons Committee. The amendment states that the Lord Chancellor shall It is the Reasons Committee that drafts the reasons exercise his powers under this provision in order to why the Commons do disagree with your Lordships’ ensure that individuals have access to legal services, House. It sits in a room just behind the Speaker’s and that it is entirely within his discretion, Chair. That room is known as the Reasons Room. “and subject to the provisions of this Part”. Behind that Alice-in-Wonderland title lies an Alice-in- This is a very carefully drafted amendment. It secures Wonderland process. In the Reasons Room, the Reasons the Government’s financial position. The ultimate Committee—which does not produce a Hansard record, discretion is the Lord Chancellor’s, and I find it very or certainly did not do so in my time—produces difficult to foresee, in reality, any other financial reasons that, by and large, are presented on a piece of implication. paper and nodded through. That seems to me to be what has happened here. The reason that is given is Lord Hart of Chilton: My Lords, I have supported that, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, throughout the process “it would alter the financial arrangements made by the Commons”. of this Bill. I do so again and I will not take up time to That is a statement of predictive certainty. What we enlarge on anything that has been said thus far in have heard from my noble friend the Minister suggests support of the amendment. I simply risk causing the that there might be a possibility at some stage in the Minister convulsions by drawing his attention to the future that some kind of judicial review action might, clock and indicating that we are well on our way to not would, have some effect on, not alter, the financial doubling the amount of time that the Commons took arrangements made by the Commons. to dispatch four of your Lordships’ amendments. It I echo the words of the noble and learned Baroness, also had the temerity to adopt a programme Motion Lady Butler-Sloss, about the process of judicial review. that caused Sir Gerald Kaufman to stop in mid-track Every judicial review application goes in the first when he was saying: instance, on an entirely paper procedure, before a “It is out of order in this House of Commons to accuse judge of the administrative court. As it happens, most anyone of hypocrisy, so I—”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/4/12; applications—about 80 to 90 per cent—are refused on col. 208.] the papers and there is practically no expenditure We shall never know what he was about to say, but it upon them at all. I cannot see any circumstances in shows how well we attend to amendments in this which it is more likely that judicial review proceedings House and how poorly they do so in the Commons. would continue as a result of including this amendment in the Bill as compared with the Bill as it stands. As my Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, the whole exercise noble friend Lord Thomas said, the Bill as it stands of this House examining the reasons given for rejecting contains the potential for applications being made for an amendment from this place turns on the supposition judicial review against the exceptionality provisions in the first instance that the other place has in a and against a ruling that legal aid should not be given. mature, reasonable and well informed way applied What is proposed here hardly increases that risk. itself to all the relevant issues. I therefore take very much to heart the submissions made by way of Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords— preliminary argument by the Minister. It is his case that the other place has done exactly that: namely, that Lord Carlile of Berriew: I will give way in a moment; it has looked in a fair, reasonable and mature way and I shall just finish the sentence. has comprehensively dealt with those issues. I think If the other place has got its reasons wrong then that his argument is utterly fallacious in that respect. surely we are entitled to question those reasons in this House, and if the burden of the debate justifies it, to Lord Thomas of Gresford: Before using a word such ask the other place to reconsider, on the basis that it as that, does the noble Lord not agree that there is a has got its reasons wrong. I will give way to my noble constitutional convention that— friend now—but he does not want me to. I am glad that I have answered his question. I have nothing Lord Elystan-Morgan: It is exactly on the question further to add. of constitutional convention that I seek to address this House now. The Minister’s case, in so far as it refers to Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, I rise in support the Government having carefully considered the situation, of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I am concerned is amply made out. I am sure that battalions or squadrons about the reasons given in the Marshalled List, and of legal eagles have been burning the midnight oil 1569 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1570 looking carefully at every word, comma and expression sometimes said that it is an absolute duty. However, in these matters. I have no doubt that that has been with this proviso it is almost as though the Government done thoroughly and comprehensively. have had the benefit of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, However, has the other place thoroughly and advising them on how to make the matter proof from comprehensively considered this matter? There has judicial review. been a double guillotine. First, there was a guillotine Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I went to the in dealing with the issue because it could not be raised other place to hear our amendments debated. As I am at Second Reading, in Committee or on Report. There not a former Member of the other place, perhaps my was a second guillotine in the meagre ration of time— noble friend will take it from me that its consideration 27 minutes—allowed for this amendment and two or of some of our amendments was cursory—and that is three others. You would not hang a dog on such a putting it quite generously. I admit to being very procedure. disappointed that, on such an important Bill as this, Therefore, on that basis, I make no apology for the other place allowed so little time for consideration raising what I consider to be a fundamental constitutional of these amendments that one cannot say that they point. We are dealing with the rejection by the House scrutinised the amendments with the seriousness with of Commons of a matter on which the time taken which we try to scrutinise. presupposes that its consideration could not have been Having said all that, I am still mystified by this mature and comprehensive. In addition, we have the amendment. I agree with my noble friend Lord Faulks, reason given on financial privilege. I am as sure as I and consequently with my noble friend—well, he is a am that financial privilege cannot apply to this case friend but he is not a friend—Lord Pannick. It seems because the very thing that it avoids doing is increasing clear—indeed it was part of the case made by the the burden on the public purse. If I am right—as I noble Lord, Lord Pannick—that there is no prospect understand it, that has been the rule since the end of of judicial review, and he has designed this amendment the 17th century—it is not a financial privilege matter. to cut out that prospect. However, to the extent to Therefore, we have two constitutional issues. One is which he has been successful—and I think he has the lack of time and it being ridiculously limited in the been—it makes the clause ineffectual. It has absolutely other place. The second is the reason advanced; the no practical effect. I am afraid that it is admirable in very basis for refusing it cannot be sustained in argument. sentiment but ineffectual in purpose and therefore Perhaps I may also challenge in a respectable, and I should not be in the Bill. hope friendly, way the noble Lord’s contention that those of us who have had experience—in my case, it Lord Beecham: My Lords, my noble friend Lord was a very long time ago—as Members in the other Hart inadvertently stole my opening line about the place are in some way tainted and disqualified from time we have spent debating this amendment. I could making contributions in this House on this matter. Is also point out that we will take little less time to vote he saying that we should be silent? If this House is on this amendment than the other place took to anything at all, it is a first-class reviewing Chamber. discuss, and allegedly debate, all four of the amendments Is he saying that, as a reviewing Chamber, this House about which we have heard. should not comment on such matters? If it does not The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, has entertained the comment on such matters, it does not deserve to be a House by conjuring up a vision of an army of devious reviewing Chamber or a court of Parliament at all. lawyers mining the rich seams of the potential availability of legal aid for the purpose of pursuing claims for 4.15 pm judicial review. Others of your Lordships have rather demolished the thrust of that argument, which Lord Faulks: My Lords, I will be very brief. I in any case might be thought to be somewhat fanciful, supported the predecessor of this amendment as it especially in the light of the quite appropriate reference went through the various stages in your Lordships’ made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, to the fact that House. I did so because, for the reasons that have the amendment incorporates specific reference to the already been given, I thought it was an important discretion of the Lord Chancellor. With respect to the statement of principle that ought to govern the way in noble Lord, Lord Thomas, there really is no substance which we considered the Bill and ought to be part of in his objection to the amendment as it has been the Bill. I remain of that view. moved. It seems that the real reason for the objection to this In relying once again on financial privilege—when amendment is the fear of judicial review, or the rather it could have been waived and substantive arguments vaguely described “satellite litigation”. I understand put in the form of a Motion asking this House to why government lawyers, who are not always right reconsider the amendment—the Government seem to about everything, may consider that there is a risk of be succumbing once again to the temptation of relying judicial review in all sorts of situations: because of the on this way out of a difficulty. They are becoming ingenuity of lawyers and perhaps the flexibility of the addicted to the use of financial privilege as a reason to Human Rights Act. However, given the way in which reject amendments from your Lordships’ House, and it is currently framed, it seems absolutely hopeless to that cannot be a satisfactory basis for dealing with think that there could be judicial review in these significant matters of this kind. Therein lies the strength circumstances. The amendment as formulated makes of an argument about financial privilege when, in it entirely clear. We are all familiar with provisions dealing after a fashion with the amendment in the with no such discretion or reference to the Lord Chancellor House of Commons, the Minister, Mr Djanogly, made or the Secretary of State, in which case courts have one of his principle objections: that the Government, 1571 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1572

[LORD BEECHAM] remarks, which contain some fairly harsh strictures “are concerned that the amendment replicates what is already in about the Lord Chancellor, he will reflect that the place”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/4/12; col. 201.] question of financial privilege is not a matter for the If it replicates what is already in place, how can it Government or for the Lord Chancellor. As the clerk conceivably add to the Government’s expenditure? It of the Commons explains, an amendment that infringes is a ludicrous proposition in an attempt to have it both privilege would be the only reason that would be ways. given. That is because giving other reasons suggests For that matter, those who argue that judicial review either that the Commons has not noticed the financial is something to be avoided seem to have forgotten that implications or that it somehow attaches no importance when we were discussing the position of the director to its financial primacy. of legal aid casework—the DOLAC amendment; we We had a debate very like this one when we discussed will come later to a welcome acceptance of an amendment the Welfare Reform Bill. I do not have figures at my in that respect—it was argued that judicial review fingertips—perhaps we can give the noble Lord, Lord would be available to those who sought to make a case Hennessy, the task of looking at the record of respective for legal aid in exceptional circumstances. At that Administrations in using financial privilege—but when point, it was to come to the rescue of people who were we last discussed the matter it was made clear that this being denied legal aid and was something to be embraced. is a matter for the Commons. As the Companion Today, however, for the purposes of this amendment it states: is an issue that could be deployed against the amendment “Criticism of proceedings in the House of Commons or of of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. Commons Speaker’s rulings is out of order, but criticism may be There is no question that the purpose of this made of the institutional structure of Parliament or the role and amendment is clear. It is declaratory, but it is important function of the House of Commons”. to be declaratory about important principles, and for I think noble Lords have exercised that procedure that reason the Opposition wholly support the today. amendment. Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, the Minister Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords, I will explain said that financial privilege is not a matter for the briefly why I do not agree with the amendment. I quite Government but for the House of Commons. We agree with those who have said that it is inconceivable understand—we are very familiar with the convention— that it will give rise to effective judicial review because that when the House of Commons rejects a Lords’ it imposes no legally enforceable duty and it is therefore amendment it may state reasons of financial privilege inconceivable that anyone could threaten the Government and give no further explanation. However, that does by way of judicial review. However, my problem with not explain or justify why the Minister, Mr Djanogly, it is that it imposes no legal duty and then does in opening the debate on the Lords’ Amendment 1 last nothing else. Tuesday, began his speech by drawing to the attention The amendment begins: of the other place that: “The Lord Chancellor shall exercise his powers under this “Lords amendments 1 and 24 impinge on the financial privilege Part with a view to securing that individuals have access to legal of this House. I ask the House to disagree to them and will ask services—”. the Reasons Committee to ascribe financial privilege as the Pausing there, it is of course already the Lord Chancellor’s reason for doing so”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/4/12; col. 200.] duty to do so under the Human Rights Act, as I That was his argument, essentially because he could pointed out in a brief question to my noble friend and not think of a better one. It is very unusual for the colleague Lord Pannick. Under that Act, the Lord Government to rely blatantly on financial privilege Chancellor has to act in a way that is compatible with during the debate. Article 6 of the convention, which secures a right of We have to contend with a new situation. We are access to justice. Existing law and Section 3 of the not criticising the constitutional arrangements, the Human Rights Act require that all legislation, including conventions or the manner of the relationship between this Bill, must be read and given effect in so far as it is the two Houses, but we are saying that the Government possible to do so compatibly with the Human Rights should not hide behind this formula, this antique Act. That first part of the amendment is already fully convention, but should deal fairly and squarely with taken care of by that Act. In so far as the rule of law is the merits of the argument. in play, it is also taken care of by the Constitutional Reform Act. Lord McNally: The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, has The amendment goes on: wandered—I shall come to some of his comments “that effectively meet their needs, subject to the resources which later—into interesting fields. The financial privilege of the Lord Chancellor decides, in his discretion, to make available, the House of Commons may be antique, but as an old and subject to the provisions of this Part”. House of Commons man I am rather attached to That completely swallows up any suggestion that this financial privilege. Kings have lost their heads and is some new, important principle. I am afraid it is revolutions have taken place to protect financial privilege written in water and I do not approve of putting and I do not airily sweep it away as an antique remnant anything in the statute that is simply an unenforceable of a bygone age. It is an important part of the relationship duty written in water. between the two Houses. Lord McNally: My Lords, we have had a very Lord Howarth of Newport: Can the Minister explain interesting debate on this. I hope when the noble and how financial privilege applies in this case? Of course learned Lord, Lord Woolf, has time to read his own the Bill concerns public expenditure, and in that sense 1573 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1574 financial privilege applies, as it does to virtually every who will have to pick up the consequences. Therefore, item of legislation, but how do the Government contrive I think at this stage in the passage of the Bill, the to justify making it the basis of their argument to Lord Chancellor of the day and the Government of Members in another place? They asked them to reject the day see dangers in what, if it is anything, is either the amendment on the grounds of financial privilege meaningless or has a meaning that has implications as if it were at risk of incurring unaffordable increases for the future; and if it does have implications for the in public expenditure, which is simply not the case. future, in a Bill structured in this way, I think we are right to resist it. 4.30 pm I hope noble Lords will agree that the Lord Chancellor of the day and the Government of the day could and Lord McNally: My Lords, we can go round in should have a sense of responsibility and care for the circles. The qualification of financial privilege is a central architecture of the Bill, which we keep on matter for the Clerks of the House of Commons. talking about. The Bill is not open-ended but specific Former Mr Speaker Martin, when we last discussed and the Pannick amendment is not something that this matter at the time of the Welfare Reform Bill, should show on the face of the Bill. I hope that made very clear where the line is drawn. noble Lords reflecting on this, and the fact that it I might not have had as long and continuous a has been well considered and well debated and that I place in the House of Commons as my noble friend have not tried to hide behind financial privilege in but I have been around this place for the past 40 years, addressing your Lordships either previously or today, and one of the reasons why I teased some former will support the Government and the Commons in Members of Parliament is that for the past 40 years, their amendment. under various Administrations, I have heard these debates about the paucity of the way in which the Lord Pannick: I am grateful to all noble Lords who House of Commons discussed a matter and the brutality have spoken in this full debate. I am grateful to the with which the guillotine was used. That may well be Minister for his consideration of the amendment and one day—perhaps soon—the reason for a proper for meeting me last week to discuss the issues raised. parliamentary reform Bill that takes in both Lords The other place rejected the amendment and the Minister and Commons, but it is not an excuse for assuming invites the House to reject the amendment because of that somehow, on this particular Bill and this particular a concern or belief that it would impose further obligations issue, the Government are using chicanery or arguments on the Government. In this House, a number of noble that are not well understood in the relationship between Lords objected to the amendment on the precisely these two Houses. opposite ground that it would impose no obligations I also point out to the House that the one thing I on the Government. Perhaps I may briefly reply to have not done, and certainly did not do in my remarks both those concerns. at Report stage, Third Reading or today, is to hide First, on the concern that the amendment would behind financial privilege. I do not think that the impose further obligations and would somehow Pannick amendment stands up to scrutiny and I was undermine the architecture of the Bill, to use the grateful for the contribution of a number of my noble Minister’s words, with great respect I have enormous friends in that. Part 1 of the Bill, the Lord Chancellor’s difficulty in understanding those concerns. I could functions, states: understand the concern if the amendment had any “The Lord Chancellor must secure that legal aid is made adverse financial consequences, but it plainly does available in accordance with this Part.” not. It says, This seems to me a very clear statement of intent. The “subject to the resources which the Lord Chancellor decides, in difference between the Act being replaced and this Bill his discretion, to make available, and subject to the provisions of is that the Act being replaced is an open-ended Act. It this Part”. does not restrict where legal aid would apply. The I am very grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Faulks, whole point of the Bill—what makes it different from Lord Carlile of Berriew and Lord Phillips of Sudbury, the previous Act—is that it limits, specifies and draws for their views, which I share, that it is impossible to attention to where legal aid will apply and what will be understand how in the real world this amendment out of scope. That is the danger of the Pannick could result in litigation that had any prospect of amendment—that in its general good will to all men getting off the ground—certainly any more so than approach, it leaves the idea that things may be added. the original Clause 1. So the only possible objection to Indeed, both the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and to a the amendment is that it does not impose further certain extent the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said that obligations on the Government and that it does nothing. when better days are here this whole circumstance may That was the point made by the noble and learned change. It may change, but not under a vaguely-worded Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, and the noble Lord, Part 1 of the Bill. We have, in the course of the Bill, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, and was a concern expressed accepted an amendment from my noble friends that by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. I say to removed the ratchet and left a regulator in terms of those noble Lords and to the House, with great respect, what can be put back into the Bill, but that will be a that that is to misunderstand the purpose of an objects matter for reflection and discussion in the future. clause. The purpose of the amendment is to ensure What worries me is that all the learned Lords who that the Bill recognises that we are cutting back on have spoken may be absolutely right, and if they are legal aid, most regrettably, because of current financial right we will all live happily ever after. But if they are stringency, but that the principle of securing that wrong it is a future Lord Chancellor and the taxpayer individuals have access to legal services that effectively 1575 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1576

[LORD PANNICK] Division No. 1 meet their needs, which has been part of our law since 1949, has not been forgotten. It is still the purpose of CONTENTS legal aid and, when the economy improves, that is the Aberdare, L. Gavron, L. principle by which Ministers and Parliament should Adebowale, L. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. assess— Adonis, L. Giddens, L. Ahmed, L. Glasman, L. Lord McNally: I hate to stop the noble Lord’s flow, Allenby of Megiddo, V. Golding, B. but he has just put his finger on it. This is not an Alton of Liverpool, L. Goldsmith, L. Andrews, B. Gordon of Strathblane, L. interim, pro tem measure, waiting for a return to the Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Goudie, B. 1949 Act. Although, as I mentioned in my opening Bach, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. remarks, financial considerations of course have played Bakewell, B. Graham of Edmonton, L. a part, the main intention of the Bill is to restructure, Barnett, L. Greengross, B. reshape and re-point the direction of legal aid away Bassam of Brighton, L. Greenway, L. from the open-ended nature of the 1949 Act and Bath and Wells, Bp. Grenfell, L. successive Acts and put it into a closed system. It is Beecham, L. Grey-Thompson, B. Berkeley, L. that closed system that the noble Lord’s amendment, Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Best, L. Grocott, L. with great skill aforethought, plans to undermine. Bhattacharyya, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. That is why we are resisting it. Bichard, L. Hanworth, V. Billingham, B. Harries of Pentregarth, L. Bilston, L. Lord Pannick: I entirely accept the Minister’s point Harris of Haringey, L. Birt, L. Hart of Chilton, L. that the Bill seeks to identify those subjects for which Blackstone, B. legal aid should be made available. But the Minister Blood, B. Haskel, L. will recognise that, in the anxious debates that we Boateng, L. Haworth, L. have had through the progress of the Bill, we have Borrie, L. Hayman, B. considered a number of sensitive topics in respect of Bradley, L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Bragg, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. which the Minister’s argument has been that we Brennan, L. Henig, B. would like to provide legal aid for this subject but, Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Hennessy of Nympsfield, L. regrettably, we cannot do so because we do not have Brookman, L. Hereford, Bp. the money under the current financial stringency. The Browne of Ladyton, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. House has listened to that debate and accepted, with a Butler-Sloss, B. Hollins, B. heavy heart, that in relation to many of the subjects in Campbell-Savours, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Chichester, Bp. Howarth of Newport, L. respect of which legal aid has previously been made Christopher, L. Howells of St Davids, B. available it will regrettably no longer be made available. Clancarty, E. Howie of Troon, L. Having accepted that the Government must have their Clark of Windermere, L. Hoyle, L. way for financial reasons on many of those very Clinton-Davis, L. Hughes of Stretford, B. difficult areas, I believe that it is absolutely vital that Cobbold, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Cohen of Pimlico, B. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. we retain in this Bill a statement of the principle of Collins of Highbury, L. Hutton of Furness, L. why legal aid is made available so that when the Corston, B. Hylton, L. economy improves— Coussins, B. Imbert, L. Cox, B. Irvine of Lairg, L. Lord Lester of Herne Hill: My Lords— Craigavon, V. Janner of Braunstone, L. Crawley, B. Jay of Paddington, B. Crisp, L. Joffe, L. Lord Pannick: I have given way to the noble Lord Davies of Coity, L. Jones, L. before. I anticipate that the House is anxious to move Davies of Oldham, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. on. The House has heard the debate in relation to this Davies of Stamford, L. Jordan, L. matter. I say to the House that that part of the Deech, B. Judd, L. 27 minutes which the other place devoted—I am not Desai, L. Kakkar, L. Dixon, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. giving way— Donaghy, B. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Donoughue, L. Kilclooney, L. Lord McNally: My Lords— Drake, B. King of West Bromwich, L. Drayson, L. Kinnock, L. Lord Pannick: The House wants to move on. That Dubs, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. part of the 27 minutes which the other place devoted Elder, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Elystan-Morgan, L. Laird, L. to consideration of this amendment shows that the Evans of Parkside, L. Laming, L. purpose and effect of this amendment were not Evans of Temple Guiting, L. Layard, L. understood. I think that we should ask the other place Evans of Watford, L. Lea of Crondall, L. to think again on this important matter, and I wish to Falconer of Thoroton, L. Levy, L. test the opinion of the House. Falkland, V. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Liddle, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Lipsey, L. 4.41 pm Fellowes, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. Filkin, L. Listowel, E. Division on Motion A1 Finlay of Llandaff, B. Low of Dalston, L. Ford, B. Luce, L. Contents 248; Not-Contents 233. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. McAvoy, L. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Motion A1 agreed. Gale, B. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. 1577 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1578

Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Rogan, L. De Mauley, L. MacGregor of Pulham L. Rooker, L. Dear, L. Market, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Rowlands, L. Dholakia, L. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Mallalieu, B. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Dixon-Smith, L. MacLaurin of Knebworth, L. Manchester, Bp. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Dobbs, L. McNally, L. Mar, C. Sawyer, L. Doocey, B. Maddock, B. Martin of Springburn, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. Eaton, B. Magan of Castletown, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Sewel, L. Eccles, V. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Massey of Darwen, B. Sheldon, L. Eden of Winton, L. Mancroft, L. Maxton, L. Sherlock, B. Elton, L. Mar and Kellie, E. Meacher, B. Simon, V. Empey, L. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Mitchell, L. Singh of Wimbledon, L. Falkner of Margravine, B. L. Moonie, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Marland, L. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Smith of Finsbury, L. Fearn, L. Fink, L. Marlesford, L. Morgan of Ely, B. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Morgan of Huyton, B. Soley, L. Flight, L. Fookes, B. Methuen, L. Morris of Aberavon, L. Stern, B. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. B. Morris of Manchester, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Fowler, L. Montrose, D. Morris of Yardley, B. Stone of Blackheath, L. Framlingham, L. Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Myners, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Noon, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Freeman, L. Moynihan, L. Norwich, Bp. Taylor of Bolton, B. Freud, L. Naseby, L. Nye, B. Temple-Morris, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Neville-Jones, B. O’Loan, B. Thornton, B. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Newby, L. O’Neill of Bengarve, B. Tonge, B. Gardner of Parkes, B. Newlove, B. Pannick, L. [Teller] Touhig, L. Geddes, L. Noakes, B. Parekh, L. Triesman, L. German, L. Northover, B. Patel, L. Tunnicliffe, L. Glasgow, E. Norton of Louth, L. Patel of Blackburn, L. Turnberg, L. Glenarthur, L. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. Paul, L. Turner of Camden, B. Glendonbrook, L. O’Cathain, B. Pendry, L. Walker of Aldringham, L. Gold, L. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Peston, L. Wall of New Barnet, B. Goodhart, L. Palmer, L. Pitkeathley, B. Walpole, L. Goodlad, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Plant of Highfield, L. Walton of Detchant, L. Grade of Yarmouth, L. Palumbo, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Warner, L. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. Parminter, B. Prashar, B. Warnock, B. Hamilton of Epsom, L. Patten, L. Prescott, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Hamwee, B. Perry of Southwark, B. Prosser, B. West of Spithead, L. Hanham, B. Phillips of Sudbury, L. Puttnam, L. Wheeler, B. Harris of Peckham, L. Popat, L. Quin, B. Whitaker, B. Harris of Richmond, B. Randerson, B. Quirk, L. Wigley, L. Henley, L. Rawlings, B. Radice, L. Williams of Baglan, L. Heyhoe Flint, B. Razzall, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Wills, L. Higgins, L. Reay, L. Ramsbotham, L. [Teller] Winston, L. Hill of Oareford, L. Redesdale, L. Rea, L. Wood of Anfield, L. Home, E. Rennard, L. Rees of Ludlow, L. Woolf, L. Hooper, B. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. Woolmer of Leeds, L. Howard of Rising, L. Ribeiro, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Worthington, B. Howe, E. Risby, L. Richard, L. Young of Hornsey, B. Howell of Guildford, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Richardson of Calow, B. Young of Norwood Green, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Hussain, L. Rotherwick, L. NOT CONTENTS Hussein-Ece, B. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Inglewood, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Addington, L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, James of Blackheath, L. St John of Bletso, L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Sanderson of Bowden, L. Alderdice, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Jenkin of Roding, L. Sassoon, L. Allan of Hallam, L. Browne of Belmont, L. Jolly, B. Scott of Needham Market, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Browning, B. Jones of Birmingham, L. Seccombe, B. Arran, E. Buscombe, B. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Selborne, E. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Butler of Brockwell, L. King of Bridgwater, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Hamdon, L. Byford, B. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Selsdon, L. Ashton of Hyde, L. Caithness, E. Kramer, B. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Astor of Hever, L. Cameron of Dillington, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Sharkey, L. Attlee, E. Campbell of Alloway, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Sharp of Guildford, B. Avebury, L. Cathcart, E. Lawson of Blaby, L. Sharples, B. Baker of Dorking, L. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Lee of Trafford, L. Sheikh, L. Barker, B. Chester, Bp. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. Bates, L. Chidgey, L. Lexden, L. Shipley, L. Benjamin, B. Clement-Jones, L. Lindsay, E. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Berridge, B. Colwyn, L. Lingfield, L. Skelmersdale, L. Blencathra, L. Condon, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Smith of Clifton, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Cope of Berkeley, L. Liverpool, E. Spicer, L. B. Courtown, E. Lloyd of Berwick, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Bowness, L. Craig of Radley, L. Loomba, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Bradshaw, L. Crickhowell, L. Lothian, M. Stevens of Ludgate, L. Brinton, B. Cumberlege, B. Luke, L. Stewartby, L. Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Dannatt, L. Lyell, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. 1579 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1580

Stowell of Beeston, B. Ullswater, V. from the scope of legal aid in favour of funding Strathclyde, L. Verma, B. mediation and less adversarial proceedings, an important Sutherland of Houndwood, L. Wade of Chorlton, L. exception should be made for victims of domestic Swinfen, L. Wakeham, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. violence. This was because such victims could be Tenby, V. Wallace of Tankerness, L. intimidated during court proceedings about, for example, Thomas of Gresford, L. Walmsley, B. child contact or maintenance issues. Again, it is fair to Thomas of Swynnerton, L. Warsi, B. say that these principles were welcomed. Tope, L. Wasserman, L. Tordoff, L. Wei, L. There has been considerable debate in both this Trefgarne, L. Wheatcroft, B. House and the House of Commons over how to Trenchard, V. Wilcox, B. decide who qualifies as a victim of domestic violence Trimble, L. Williams of Crosby, B. for the purpose of legal aid for private law family True, L. Williamson of Horton, L. Trumpington, B. Willis of Knaresborough, L. proceedings. Therefore, there has been much scrutiny Tugendhat, L. Wilson of Tillyorn, L. of the definition of domestic violence used in the Bill, Tyler, L. Wright of Richmond, L. the types of evidence that would prove that someone Tyler of Enfield, B. Younger of Leckie, V. was a victim and the length of time for which these should be valid. The contributions across the House 4.56 pm have been informed, sometimes passionate and extremely helpful. The Government have listened and moved on several key points. Motion B As set out in government Amendments 193A, 219A Moved by Lord McNally and 220A, we have accepted the ACPO definition of domestic violence in full. The Bill now defines domestic That this House do not insist on its Amendments 2, violence as, 194 and 196 to which the Commons have disagreed for their Reasons 2A, 194A and 196A, do not insist “any incident of threatening behaviour, violence or abuse (whether on its Amendment 192 and do agree with the psychological, physical, sexual, financial or emotional) between individuals who are associated with each other”. Commons in their Amendments 193A, 219A and 220A. This has been universally welcomed. We have also undertaken to widen the list of evidence, which will be 2A Because it would alter the financial arrangements reflected in regulations, to include: an undertaking made by the Commons, and the Commons do not offer given to a court by the other party in lieu of a any further Reason, trusting that this reason may be protective order or injunction against that party for deemed sufficient. the protection of the applicant, and where there is no equivalent undertaking given by the applicant; a police 193A Line 2, after “means” insert “any incident of” caution for a domestic violence offence by the other party against the applicant; appropriate evidence of 219A Line 2, after “means” insert “any incident of” admission to a domestic violence refuge; appropriate evidence from a social services department confirming 220A Line 25, after “means” insert “any incident of” provision of services to the victim in relation to alleged domestic violence; and appropriate evidence from GPs 194A Because it is appropriate for provision about or other medical professionals. forms of evidence of domestic violence to be made by These are in addition to those forms of evidence regulations. already accepted by the Government which are: that a non-molestation order, occupation order, forced marriage 196A Because it is not appropriate to prevent a time protection order or other protective injunction against limit being imposed in respect of evidence supporting an the other party for the protection of the applicant is application for civil legal aid under paragraph 10 or 11 either in place or has been made in the past 12 months; of Part 1 of Schedule 1. a criminal conviction for a domestic violence offence by the other party against the applicant; ongoing Lord McNally: My Lords, Motion B contains criminal proceedings for a domestic violence offence amendments in relation to domestic violence. As I by the other party against the applicant; evidence have previously made clear, the Government take domestic from a multi-agency risk assessment conference of the violence extremely seriously. We fund a range of applicant having been referred as being at risk of programmes to help deal with and prevent this crime, domestic violence from the other party and action many of which—I am happy to acknowledge—were recommended; and a finding of fact by the court of put in place by the previous Administration. As the domestic violence by the other party against the applicant. noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, has previously On time limits, we intend to double the previously made clear, there is nothing between the Government announced time limit from 12 months to two years, and the Opposition in principle here. save in respect of a conviction for a domestic violence This was reflected in our initial proposals. First, offence, where the only limit is that the conviction legal aid to obtain a protective injunction against should not be a spent one. We think that some sort of domestic violence should remain exactly as it is at time limit will still be needed—we are in the business present, so that those who need legal aid to protect of reducing rather than encouraging litigation—but themselves can get it regardless of their means. Secondly, we think that two years will make sure that those who while we have removed most of private family law need help get it. 1581 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1582

I know that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady cuts out nearly two-thirds of people as a result, because Scotland, continues to have concerns and has tabled the crucial point is that the evidence will be generated amendments in lieu of her original amendments which when people come forward—that is, when they seek ask for our list of evidence to be exactly the same as an injunction, turn to their GP or decide to go to a the list of evidence used by the UK Border Agency in refuge. It is when the evidence arises, not when the assessing domestic violence immigration applications. abuse occurs, that indicates the start of the time limit. I know from my conversations with her that she is I stress again how far the Government have moved worried about consistency and about genuine victims on this issue. We now have a system which will genuinely missing out. I have enormous respect for the noble and and generally ensure that victims of abuse get legal aid learned Baroness but I really do think that her fears in these private family cases. We have accepted the are now misplaced, given how far we have moved. ACPO definition of domestic violence—indeed, we On consistency with the border agency, we need to have gone beyond that. We have significantly expanded understand that the decisions being made are different, the range of acceptable evidence and doubled the time as is the context in which they are made. When the limit. There is one in-built safety mechanism in the border agency takes a decision on whether domestic form of “finding of fact” hearings, and of course there violence has occurred, it is a decision on the case itself. is a second safety mechanism in the form of exceptional This would be analogous with a court looking at an funding, for the more unusual cases. So I think we application for a domestic violence protection order have now got this right. I want to pay tribute to those and a judge deciding whether domestic violence had across the House, not least to the noble and learned occurred, not with a legal aid decision about a private Baroness, Lady Scotland—I know her well and I family law case. know her deep concern on this issue. For the sake of completeness, I should add that we We are talking here about a secondary issue—in cannot accept that the evidential requirements should this case, legal aid—that arises indirectly from a person be in the Bill. Legislation of course needs to be precisely being a victim of domestic violence, not a decision drafted, and because of the level of detail required, that directly relates to someone’s protection, such as in the evidential requirements are much better left to an immigration context or an injunction application. regulations, subject to the affirmative procedure, rather What is needed for a grant of legal aid is a set of clear than primary legislation. rules, not the kind of case-by-case nuance that is needed to decide whether someone requires immediate Sometimes at this Dispatch Box one has to make direct protection. the government case with a heavy heart. I have looked at this from where we started, where we have moved Other government departments have to grapple to, and what we now cover in this very important area. with similar issues when it comes to these secondary I am proud of what the Government have done in issues. They do not use the border agency list but take carrying on the broader work against this evil crime, a judgment on what works in their particular context. but I am also proud of what we have now finished with One example is the rules for jobseeker’s allowance for in terms of a package to help in this particular case. I victims of domestic violence, over which individual hope the House will give us its support. I beg to move. local authorities have discretion. I should also point out that the noble and learned Motion B1 (as an amendment to Motion B) Baroness has never objected to a very important addition Moved by Baroness Scotland of Asthal that we have made to the border agency list—namely, “a finding of fact” by a court that domestic violence is Leave out from “House” to end and insert “do a relevant feature. This partly highlights the different not insist on its Amendments 192 and 194 and do context that we are dealing with; such a finding of fact agree with the Commons in their Amendments 193A, is much less likely to arise in an immigration context, 219A and 220A, and do not insist on its Amendments 2 but it also provides a very important safeguard in and 196 but do propose Amendments 2B and 196B these cases. By definition in this context, if you are as amendments in lieu” seeking legal aid, it is because there is the prospect of 2B Page 121, line 31, at end insert— family proceedings. If you cannot show any of the evidence of domestic violence that we have asked for “Domestic violence but the court decides, perhaps on the basis of police call-outs or other types of testimony, that domestic (1) For the purposes of this paragraph, evidence that violence is a feature in the case, then legal aid will be abuse has occurred may consist of one or more of the available. This is also relevant when thinking about the following (without limitation)— time limits. Where a case relates to older incidents of domestic violence but a court considers that the matter (a) a relevant court conviction or police caution; is still relevant and it makes a finding of fact, legal aid will be triggered. (b) a relevant court order (including without notice, ex parte, interim or final orders), icluding a non-molestation When I spoke last week with the noble and learned undertaking or order, occupation order, forced marriage Baroness, she suggested that we would be missing a protection order or other protective injunction; large number of victims with our time limit because of how long victims take to come forward. She mentioned (c) evidence of a relevant criminal proceedings for an that the average time for a victim coming forward was offence concerning domestic violence or police report five and a half years. However, it does not follow, as confirming attandance at an incident resulting from she suggested, that a two-year time limit for evidence domestic violence; 1583 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1584

[BARONESS SCOTLAND OF ASTHAL] legal aid relating to matters that touch on domestic (d) evidence that a victim has been referred to a multi-agency violence. In addition, my amendments provide that no risk assessment conference, as a high risk victim of evidence shall be deemed inadmissible on the basis of domestic violence, and a plan has been put in place to the expiration while the general limitation period under protect that victim form violence by the other party; the civil standard has not elapsed; in effect, moving limitation from the two years provided in the (e) a finding of fact in the family courts of domestic Government’s proposed regulations to six, which I violence by the other party giving rise to the risk of think causes greater consistency. harm to the victim; YourLordships will know that, in my Amendment 196B, (f) a letter from the General Medical Council registered I also seek to extend that more generous time limit to general practitioner or other medical professional confirming applications made in relation to children’s cases. The that he or she has examined the applicant and is satisfied House has heard from me, at Second Reading, in that the applicant had injuries or a condition consistent Committee and on Report, about the importance of with those of a victim of domestic violence; these issues to victims of domestic violence and their children. These amendments are, I respectfully say, (g) an undertaking given to a court by the alleged vital. They are vital to all victims who may be affected perpetrator of the abuse that he or she will not approach by domestic violence. It is the reality of the domestic the applicant in respect of allegations of domestic violence; violence victim’s life that has to be properly acknowledged. Although I thank the Minister for moving both in (h) a letter from a social services department confirming scope on the definition and on the definition itself, it is its involvement in providing services to the applicant in clear from what he said in moving his Motion that the respect of allegations of domestic violence; Government do not entirely understand the issues in relation to domestic violence as I had hoped that they (i) a letter of support or a report from a domestic would. violence support organisation; or The evidential test is there to provide assurance that (j) other well-founded evidence of abuse that is either— there is cogent information on which to base the assertions of domestic violence made by an applicant. (i) certified by a court; or The evidential gateway is just that: an evidential test to support the definition. The Government seek, on the (ii) of atype prescribed in regulations. basis of the amount of money that they have available, to narrow that gateway in a way that denies the reality (2) For the avoidance of doubt, no evidence shall be of many victims’ lives. I would love to be able to say deemed inadmissible on the basis of expiration where that my fear in relation to these amendments is misplaced. the general limitation period under the civil standard has The reason I know that, tragically, it is not, is that I not elapsed.” have had the privilege of working in this field since 196B* Page 121, line 47, at end insert— 1977. We know, through experience and the empirical data that we have, the consequence of a narrower “(2) For the avoidance of doubt, no evidence supporting gateway because there has been one in the past and we an application for civil legal services under this paragraph know that lives have been lost. shall be deemed inadmissible on the basis of expiration In many cases, women—I say “women” because where the general limitation period under the civil standard 89 per cent of repeat victims are women—will not get has not elapsed.” the support they need. I will give one example, which has been given to us by St Anthony’s Centre for Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I move the Church and Industry in Manchester. It relates to a amendment standing in my name not in any way to case where a woman had entered into a marriage cause anxiety or concern to the Minister, or with any which was violent and traumatic. She wanted to start lack of appreciation for how far the Government have divorce and financial proceedings. She did not go to a moved. I say straightaway that I welcome the moves refuge. She left her home and went to live at her that have been made in the right direction. However, I parents’ house. While there, she was not able to work hope the Minister will forgive me when I say that I because she used to work for her husband in his regret that such a move was not done immediately and business, so she lost her job; she was his bookkeeper. that we have had to wait so long. I hope the noble The husband remained in the joint home. He moved Lord will not find me ungracious when I say that I his mistress into that home and refused to engage in would invite him to move a little further. The amendments the divorce proceedings at all for a considerable amount that have been proposed by the Government widen the of time. The wife could do very little about it. Eventually, evidential gateway provided by the Bill as it stood because he would not negotiate and because she had before: my amendments take it just a little further. no money and he had a great deal, she went and Domestic violence applications are of great importance, obtained legal aid to assist her to go back into the not just because they relate to a large proportion of house and, if not to go back into the house, to get her women, but also, as the noble Lord knows, because just desserts in terms of financial relief. The husband they affect men and many children. Up to 950,000 had engaged some very expensive solicitors. She did children are affected by domestic violence every year. not have any money to do so. That woman, today, My amendments specifically permit well founded evidence would get legal aid. If your Lordships were to agree of abuse certified by a court and/or prescribed in with the amendments and pass them in accordance regulations to be used in support of an application for with the Government’s proposal, she would not. 1585 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1586

There are other cases. For example, a woman left services—both refuge-based and non-refuge-based—is her husband because of his violence and did not go 124,895: so 17,615 women are in refuges annually and back. She did not apply for any financial relief or 107,280 are in other services such as outreach and anything at all. She simply wanted safety for herself drop-in. Looking at the list to which the Minister has and her children. Eight years later—way outside the referred in his remarks, if only those who are actually two-year time limit—her husband came to apply for admitted to a refuge are able to seek and obtain contact with those children. She had not gone to the support, what about the 107,000 women who seek police. She had not gone to her doctor. She had not outreach and drop-in support? gone to a refuge, because she had gone to her mother’s The noble Lord knows that these amendments are house. Neither had she sought to enter into litigation. widely supported by the Women’s Institute, Rights of But she did not have any money. At the moment, she is Women, Mumsnet and many other agencies, including able to get legal aid; if these provisions are passed, she the faith communities. I ask the noble Lord to think will not. I know that the noble Lord would want to very carefully as to whether the Government cannot in provide help and assistance for those sorts of cases, good conscience widen the evidential gateway and the but the current provisions will not do that which the time limit to enable those with bona fide claims to be Government purport to want. better supported. I accept that even the list and the proposals that I make will still exclude many bona fide 5.15 pm cases. This causes me a great deal of pain and concern, I wish that I could simply say to the House that we but I have taken into account fully what the noble have moved far enough, but it is now a matter of Lord has said about the restrictions that must now be whether the House and the Government will choose to put on the legal aid budget. I have accepted them. I assist those who are in dire need. It is not a matter of cannot accept that the minimum standard that we us not knowing what the impact will be. On a number have outlined in my amendment—to give succour to of occasions, the noble Lord has said that we are in a those in need—cannot be afforded by us as a country. financially difficult position and that we cannot do all If we cannot afford to protect women, children and that we would like to do but that we have to narrow men who are in this position we are a very poor the gateway. I could understand narrowing the gateway country indeed. I beg to move. if it were to relate to those who make unmeritorious Lord McNally: The noble Baroness—she is learned claims, who do not need the help and support of legal as well, is she not? aid and indeed whose lives will not be adversely affected or put at risk. If that were the case, I could see that the Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I am indeed learned—very Government would have a choice. However, post- learned. separation violence occurs in 50 per cent of the cases that we deal with. These are not cases, as the noble Lord McNally: I have never doubted that. It is just Lord seeks to say, where those involved could go for that I keep getting nudged when I call someone learned an injunction. In many of these cases the violence and someone whispers in my ear that they are not. occurred a long time ago but the risk of violence to the victim and often to the victim’s children is still there. Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Noble Lords are learned We have a choice to make. In my humble submission, if they are in the Supreme Court or have been a Law that choice should be one that we make in favour of Officer. Others, regrettably, may be learned in fact but women, children and victims of domestic violence are not learned in name. whatever their gender who will have no other viable means of support. I say very clearly to the noble Lord Lord Bach: It also includes former heads of a that we on this side of the House have made a choice: division. our choice is to support victims and their children. I Lord McNally: That helps me a great deal. I shall would love the Government to be able to say amen to never refer to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, as learned that, not just in terms of desire but in reality. While again. many women do not have the support that they need, we cannot close our eyes. Lord Bach: The noble Lord has never done that. I would like to remind the House of the Women’s Aid snapshot survey that was done on 16 June last Lord McNally: My Lords, I have stated as clearly as year. It showed that on just one day 224 women were I can why the Government and the Commons have turned away from refuge services: 163 because there put forward their reasons. The emotional span of this were no spaces for them; 13 because they had no debate is sometimes extended to question whether we recourse to public funds; and 48 for other reasons are in favour of victims and their children. The answer such as complex needs. That demonstrates that even is that yes, we are in favour of them. As I said in my allowing accessing refuge services as evidence of eligibility opening remarks, this debate is about how and whether for legal aid will exclude many women who are simply and within which ambit we provide legal aid in private unable to access such services and yet are experiencing law cases. It is difficult to go beyond that into individual violence. We have to remember that if a woman has a cases, which have been cited in debate at every stage. In male child who is over the age of 11, she will not have many of these cases, the suspicion is that they would access to a refuge because such children are excluded, qualify either by application for an injunction or by a often because of their gender. Statistics from Women’s finding of fact by the court. The latter is extremely Aid show that the number of women and children important in the additional list that we have put supported annually by all domestic and sexual violence forward to qualify people for legal aid. 1587 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1588

[LORD MCNALLY] Donaghy, B. Layard, L. As I said in my opening remarks, when addressing Donoughue, L. Lea of Crondall, L. an issue such as this one, and within the constraints Drake, B. Levy, L. under which the Government are operating, lines have Drayson, L. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Dubs, L. Liddle, L. to be drawn. It is legitimate for the Opposition to Elder, L. Lipsey, L. argue that that line has been drawn in the wrong place Elystan-Morgan, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. or that a time limit has been put in the wrong place. In Erroll, E. Listowel, E. the end, however, Governments have to make decisions— Evans of Parkside, L. Low of Dalston, L. and we have made decisions. As I said, I hope that the Evans of Temple Guiting, L. McAvoy, L. House will look at the decisions we have made and see Falconer of Thoroton, L. McCluskey, L. Falkland, V. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. that we have listened and acted in a way that puts us Farrington of Ribbleton, B. McFall of Alcluith, L. on the side of victims and their children and that, in Faulkner of Worcester, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. practice, those who face the problem of domestic Fellowes, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, violence and who want to obtain legal aid for decisions Filkin, L. L. in private family law cases will find that the concessions Finlay of Llandaff, B. McKenzie of Luton, L. Ford, B. Mallalieu, B. we have made and the rules and the guidelines we have Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Manchester, Bp. laid down will give the women and children—I accept Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Mar, C. that there may be others, but mainly women and Gale, B. Martin of Springburn, L. children—who are affected by this scourge access to Gavron, L. Masham of Ilton, B. legal aid. I therefore ask the House to support Motion B. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Massey of Darwen, B. Giddens, L. Maxton, L. Glasman, L. Meacher, B. Baroness Scotland of Asthal: I am disappointed Golding, B. Mitchell, L. that the Minister takes that view. As he will know from Goldsmith, L. Monks, L. our previous debates, our assessment is that as a result Gordon of Strathblane, L. Moonie, L. of the changes that the Government are proposing, Goudie, B. Morgan of Drefelin, B. 54.4 per cent of victims currently obtaining legal aid Gould of Potternewton, B. Morgan of Ely, B. Grabiner, L. Morgan of Huyton, B. and assistance for family proceedings will not be able Graham of Edmonton, L. Morris of Aberavon, L. to obtain such help and assistance in future. Although Greengross, B. Morris of Handsworth, L. I absolutely accept that the Government intend, or Grenfell, L. Morris of Manchester, L. wish, to be supportive, these provisions demonstrate Grey-Thompson, B. Morris of Yardley, B. the reverse—that they will not be supportive. I therefore Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Myners, L. wish to test the opinion of the House. Grocott, L. Noon, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Norwich, Bp. Hanworth, V. Nye, B. 5.26 pm Harries of Pentregarth, L. O’Loan, B. Harris of Haringey, L. Pannick, L. Division on Motion B1 Hart of Chilton, L. Parekh, L. Haskel, L. Patel, L. Contents 239; Not-Contents 236. Haworth, L. Patel of Blackburn, L. Hayman, B. Pendry, L. Motion B1 agreed. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Peston, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Pitkeathley, B. Division No. 2 Henig, B. Plant of Highfield, L. Hennessy of Nympsfield, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. CONTENTS Hereford, Bp. Prashar, B. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Prescott, L. Adams of Craigielea, B. Brennan, L. Hollins, B. Prosser, B. Adebowale, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Puttnam, L. Adonis, L. Brookman, L. Howarth of Newport, L. Quin, B. Ahmed, L. Browne of Belmont, L. Howells of St Davids, B. Radice, L. Allenby of Megiddo, V. Browne of Ladyton, L. Howie of Troon, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Alton of Liverpool, L. Butler of Brockwell, L. Hoyle, L. Rea, L. Andrews, B. Butler-Sloss, B. Hughes of Stretford, B. Reid of Cardowan, L. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Campbell-Savours, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Bach, L. Carter of Coles, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Richard, L. Bakewell, B. Chester, Bp. Hylton, L. Rooker, L. Barnett, L. Christopher, L. Imbert, L. Rosser, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. Clancarty, E. Irvine of Lairg, L. Rowlands, L. [Teller] Clark of Windermere, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Bath and Wells, Bp. Clinton-Davis, L. Jay of Paddington, B. St Edmundsbury and Ipswich, Beecham, L. Cohen of Pimlico, B. Joffe, L. Bp. Berkeley, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Jones, L. Sawyer, L. Best, L. Corston, B. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Scotland of Asthal, B. Bhattacharyya, L. Crawley, B. Jordan, L. Sewel, L. Bichard, L. Crisp, L. Judd, L. Sheldon, L. Billingham, B. Davies of Coity, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Sherlock, B. Bilston, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Simon, V. Blackstone, B. Davies of Stamford, L. Kestenbaum, L. Slim, V. Blood, B. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, King of West Bromwich, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Boateng, L. B. Kinnock, L. Smith of Finsbury, L. Borrie, L. Deech, B. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Bradley, L. Desai, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Soley, L. Bragg, L. Dixon, L. Laming, L. Stern, B. 1589 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1590

Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Lee of Trafford, L. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. West of Spithead, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Ribeiro, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Wheeler, B. Lexden, L. Risby, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Whitaker, B. Lindsay, E. Roberts of Conwy, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Whitty, L. Lingfield, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Temple-Morris, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Rotherwick, L. Wigley, L. Tenby, V. Liverpool, E. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Williams of Elvel, L. Thornton, B. Lloyd of Berwick, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Tonge, B. Williamson of Horton, L. Loomba, L. St John of Bletso, L. Touhig, L. Wills, L. Lothian, M. Sanderson of Bowden, L. Triesman, L. Winston, L. Luce, L. Sassoon, L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Wood of Anfield, L. Luke, L. Scott of Needham Market, B. Turnberg, L. Woolf, L. Lyell, L. Seccombe, B. Turner of Camden, B. Woolmer of Leeds, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Selborne, E. Wall of New Barnet, B. Worthington, B. MacGregor of Pulham Selkirk of Douglas, L. Walpole, L. Young of Hornsey, B. Market, L. Selsdon, L. Warner, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Sharkey, L. MacLaurin of Knebworth, L. Sharp of Guildford, B. Maclennan of Rogart, L. Sharples, B. NOT CONTENTS McNally, L. Sheikh, L. Aberdare, L. Falkner of Margravine, B. Maddock, B. Shephard of Northwold, B. Addington, L. Faulks, L. Magan of Castletown, L. Shipley, L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Fearn, L. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Alderdice, L. Fink, L. Mancroft, L. Skelmersdale, L. Allan of Hallam, L. Flight, L. Mar and Kellie, E. Smith of Clifton, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Fookes, B. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Spicer, L. Arran, E. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. L. Stedman-Scott, B. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Fowler, L. Marland, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Hamdon, L. Framlingham, L. Marlesford, L. Stephen, L. Ashton of Hyde, L. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Stewartby, L. Astor of Hever, L. Freeman, L. Methuen, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Attlee, E. Freud, L. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Stowell of Beeston, B. Barker, B. Garden of Frognal, B. B. Strasburger, L. Bates, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Montagu of Beaulieu, L. Strathclyde, L. Benjamin, B. Gardner of Parkes, B. Montrose, D. Sutherland of Houndwood, L. Berridge, B. Geddes, L. Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Black of Brentwood, L. German, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Teverson, L. Blencathra, L. Glasgow, E. Naseby, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Glenarthur, L. Neville-Jones, B. Thomas of Swynnerton, L. B. Glendonbrook, L. Newby, L. Tope, L. Bowness, L. Glentoran, L. Newlove, B. Tordoff, L. Bridgeman, V. Gold, L. Noakes, B. Trefgarne, L. Brinton, B. Goodhart, L. Northbrook, L. Trimble, L. Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Goodlad, L. Northover, B. True, L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Goschen, V. Norton of Louth, L. Tugendhat, L. L. Grade of Yarmouth, L. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. Tyler of Enfield, B. Brougham and Vaux, L. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. O’Cathain, B. Ullswater, V. Browning, B. Greenway, L. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Verma, B. Burnett, L. Hamilton of Epsom, L. Palmer, L. Wade of Chorlton, L. Buscombe, B. Hamwee, B. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Wakeham, L. Byford, B. Hanham, B. Palumbo, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Caithness, E. Harris of Peckham, L. Parminter, B. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Campbell of Alloway, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Patten, L. Walmsley, B. Carlile of Berriew, L. Henley, L. Perry of Southwark, B. Walton of Detchant, L. Cathcart, E. Heyhoe Flint, B. Phillips of Sudbury, L. Warsi, B. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Higgins, L. Popat, L. Wasserman, L. Chidgey, L. Hill of Oareford, L. Ramsbotham, L. Wei, L. Clement-Jones, L. Home, E. Randerson, B. Wheatcroft, B. Colwyn, L. Hooper, B. Rawlings, B. Wilcox, B. Cope of Berkeley, L. Howard of Rising, L. Razzall, L. Williams of Crosby, B. Cormack, L. Howe, E. Reay, L. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Cotter, L. Howe of Aberavon, L. Redesdale, L. Wilson of Tillyorn, L. Courtown, E. Howell of Guildford, L. Rennard, L. Younger of Leckie, V. Craigavon, V. Hunt of Wirral, L. Crickhowell, L. Hussain, L. 5.43 pm Cumberlege, B. Hussein-Ece, B. De Mauley, L. Inglewood, L. Dear, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Motion C Deben, L. Jenkin of Roding, L. Moved by Lord McNally Dholakia, L. Jolly, B. Dixon-Smith, L. Jones of Cheltenham, L. That this House do not insist on its Amendments 3 Dobbs, L. Kakkar, L. and 4 and do agree with the Commons in their Doocey, B. King of Bridgwater, L. Eaton, B. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Amendments 4A and 4B. Eccles, V. Kramer, B. Eden of Winton, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. 4A Page 3, line 22, leave out subsection (4) and insert— Elton, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Empey, L. Lawson of Blaby, L. “( ) But the Lord Chancellor— 1591 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1592

[LORD MCNALLY] striking the right balance in respect of the administrative (a) must not give a direction or guidance about the arrangements that we are seeking under the new carrying out of those functions in relation to an individual framework. I beg to move. case, and

(b) must ensure that the Director acts independently of Lord Pannick: My Lords, together with the noble the Lord Chancellor when applying a direction or guidance and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and the noble Lords, under subsection (3) in relation to an individual case.” Lord Hart of Chilton and Lord Faulks, I tabled the amendment on the independence of the director that 4B Page 3, line 24, leave out “about the carrying out of was approved in this House. I thank the Minister and those functions” and insert “under this section” the Government for listening on this important subject and for including in the Bill, as the Minister explained, Lord McNally: My Lords, we now turn to Motion C a reference to the independence of the director, which and to Amendments 3 and 4, tabled by the noble and will give great comfort to all those who will be involved learned Lord, Lord Pannick. The noble Lord is not in the administration of this legislation. learned, is he? Although these are matters of constitutional principle, they can be addressed by compromise, I am happy to Lord Pannick: No. say. I very much hope that the Government will be able to adopt a similarly conciliatory approach to the amendments that your Lordships’ House approved Lord McNally: The noble Lord’s amendments concern earlier this afternoon. I thank the Minister. the independence of the director of legal aid casework. I am confident that we all share the sentiment that the Lord Chancellor should have no involvement in a Lord Beecham: My Lords, tempting though it is to decision about legal aid funding in an individual case. regard the notion of an entirely independent civil However, I share the view of the House of Commons servant as somewhat oxymoronic, I echo the remarks that this amendment has undesirable and unforeseen of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and welcome the consequences and that it is possible to provide the fact that the Government have moved sufficiently to assurance and protection required without adopting meet the considerations that were advanced on Report. the amendment. We are glad to be able to conclude these matters, and look forward very much to seeing precisely how the The primary concern with these amendments is system works in practice. that they would have the effect of preventing the director being appointed as a civil servant. It is our Motion C agreed. strong view that the director will enjoy full independence from the Lord Chancellor yet can be appointed as a civil servant. For the avoidance of doubt, we are Motion D abolishing the Legal Services Commission and creating Moved by Baroness Northover a new executive agency to provide Ministers with greater policy control and improved accountability for That this House do not insist on its Amendment 24 legal aid. Giving full independence to the director to which the Commons have disagreed for their would run entirely contrary to this intention. Reason 24A. Clause 4 already provides protection in subsection (4) 24A Because it would alter the financial arrangements with a statutory bar on the Lord Chancellor’s involvement made by the Commons, and the Commons do not offer in making funding decisions in individual cases. The any further Reason, trusting that this reason may be Bill also imposes a duty on the Lord Chancellor to deemed sufficient. publish any guidance and directions issued to the director, thereby providing transparency. Noble Lords will recall from Report stage that we amended the Bill Baroness Northover: My Lords, noble Lords gave to offer greater transparency by requiring the director great attention to this issue in earlier stages. I hope to produce an annual report for the preceding financial that the discussions that have resulted, both within year on the exercise of their functions during that and outside the Chamber, have helped to reassure period. This report will be laid before Parliament and them. published. I begin by saying that the Government have always agreed that telephone legal aid advice will not be 5.45 pm suitable for everyone. That is why there will be exceptions As I alluded to at the outset, we share the noble to having to use the gateway to apply for legal aid—for Lord’s view with regard to the protection being sought, example, for emergency cases. Those who are eligible which is why the Government’s amendment in lieu was for legal aid will be assessed on a case-by-case basis to offered in the House of Commons. This amendment identify whether they are suitable for telephone advice. places a specific duty on the Lord Chancellor to A key consideration in assessing suitability for receiving ensure that the director acts independently of the advice over the telephone will be whether a caller is Lord Chancellor when applying directions and guidance able to give instructions and act on advice over the given under Clause 4(3) in relation to an individual telephone. Trained and skilled assessors will assess this case. I hope the House shares my view that this new suitability, and a range of reasonable adjustments and provision provides the assurances sought, incorporating service adaptations will also be available to assist as it does the concept of independence in the Bill while callers in their contact with the gateway. 1593 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1594

The gateway, based on the existing highly successful in particular, the amendment of the noble Baroness, Community Legal Advice helpline, will be a two-stage Lady Grey-Thompson, Amendment 24B in lieu, would process—not just, as some have called it, a “call centre” be to impact severely on the provision of any legally service. It may help noble Lords if I briefly set out how aided advice services by telephone, including the existing the process will work in practice. community legal advice helpline, the existing criminal Stage one: when applying for legal aid in one of the defence service direct telephone scheme as well as the areas of law subject to the gateway, trained and skilled proposed mandatory gateway for certain areas of civil telephone operator service staff will engage with the legal aid. These amendments are unnecessary and caller to identify their problem and eligibility for legal disproportionate to the concerns of the noble Baroness, aid, giving the caller the time needed to explain their which previously have centred on the mandatory gateway problem. Organisations such as the Samaritans have and vulnerable people. contributed to training for current operator service Amendment 24B would require every eligible client staff. These staff will not provide legal advice, but will to receive face-to-face advice, regardless of their particular route clients to sources of help. If the problem is in an circumstances or personal preference. This would result area of law subject to the gateway, the client will be in a very inflexible system that would invariably introduce transferred to a legally trained specialist for telephone a delay in clients receiving advice as not only would advice. they have to locate a suitable provider, they would also In the second stage, as now, under the current need to contact them to make an appointment to see community legal advice helpline contract, where an them. No longer, for example, would a client be able to eligible caller is transferred to a specialist, legally make contact with and discuss their problem at a time trained telephone adviser, that adviser will speak to and place convenient to them. the caller to assess their needs, including their suitability Noble Lords have already acknowledged the for telephone advice. Where it is clear, having regard in effectiveness of telephone advice itself. On 20 December, particular to whether a caller is able to give instructions the noble Lord, Lord Bach, described the community and act on advice over the telephone, that face-to-face legal advice helpline as excellent and he was sure that advice is needed, the client will be referred to a face-to-face noble Lords would be glad to see their work continue provider. I ask noble Lords to note that both the and expand. However, such a requirement would telephone operators and specialist telephone providers invariably mean the end of any telephone advice as it will have ongoing training, including awareness of would be highly unlikely that any individual who has different vulnerable callers, such as those with mental explained their problem to a face-to-face advice provider health issues and learning difficulties. would then choose to switch to a different telephone The Government have engaged and will continue to advice provider at a later stage. engage with stakeholders, including equality groups, to identify any additional reasonable adjustments Not only would this amendment have the potential for callers with specific needs. For those with little or to eliminate all the savings from the gateway, it could no spoken English, a free three-way translation service add about £4 million to the legal aid bill for criminal in 170 languages can assist engagement with the cases and additional cost to civil legal aid for additional gateway. Few face-to-face providers could offer this face-to-face advice—advice which is currently successfully extensive range of languages. A third party, including provided by telephone. The specific duties contained a family member or advocate, can contact the gateway in Amendment 24B are also unnecessary. I can assure to speak for a person or help them explain their the noble Baroness that the Government have complied problem. To minimise costs, all potential callers can with the public sector equality duty under Section 149 contact the gateway by mobile phone text or the of the Equality Act 2010 and we have published an internet to ask for a call back, and all callers can ask equality impact assessment—at the time of the for a call back, too. consultation on the legal aid reforms and at the time The use of new technologies such as Skype and of the Government’s response—which includes webcam—wider than for just the British Sign Language consideration of the mandatory gateway policy. The service—are being investigated to enhance the service public sector equality duty is a continuing one and we further. There will also be a service enabling an individual will continue to comply with it. to contact the gateway by secure e-mail. The Government As noble Lords know, under the public sector equality will raise awareness of the gateway to users, including duty it is necessary to have due regard to the need to the services and support it offers and we will also be eliminate discrimination, harassment, victimisation and monitoring its operation from day one of implementation other conduct that is prohibited by or under the and engaging with those using it to ensure that needs Equality Act 2010, advance equality of opportunity are indeed met. As we have also stressed, there will be between persons who share a relevant protected a review of its implementation and operation, and the characteristic and persons who do not share it, and report of that review will be published. This will foster good relations between persons who share a happen within two years of the implementation of the relevant protected characteristic and persons who do gateway and before any decision about any possible not share it. The relevant protected characteristics for extension of the gateway to other areas of law is these purposes are age, disability, gender reassignment, taken. marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, The Government are confident that a mandatory race, religion or belief, sex and sexual orientation. gateway can facilitate efficient and prompt access to These types of discrimination are all defined in the legal advice, including advice for those vulnerable Equality Act 2010 and we are complying, of course, people in need of it. The effect of Amendment 24 and, with that. For these reasons, I beg to move. 1595 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1596

The Minister has provided more information on Motion D1 (as an amendment to Motion D) this, and while those who work in the call centre will Moved by Baroness Grey-Thompson not be under any time constraint to get through the At end insert “but do propose Amendment 24B call, there will be a significant amount of pressure on as an amendment in lieu” them not only to guide the client in the right way, but to ensure that the client has understood what they are 24B* Page 21, line 7, at end insert— being told. How will this be measured? Will it be on customer satisfaction, or will the number of cases that “( ) Notwithstanding subsection (1), the Lord Chancellor’s progress or do not progress be used in some way? duty to a person eligible for legal aid advice under section 1(1) must include— The Minister in his letter—and I believe this is telling—twice mentions the fact that the key test will (a) a duty to secure the provision of initial face-to-face be whether the individual is able to give instructions advice; and and act on the advice given over the telephone. I am extremely concerned that vulnerable people, with complex (b) a duty to secure the provision of legal aid advice in a problems, will drop out of the system, even if they range of forms, taking account of the needs of the make it to the first phone call. Just finding the telephone person eligible for such advice (“the client”), including— gateway may be a challenge for some. The same can be (i) the client’s vulnerability; said of the online form on the DirectGov website. They may not be able to do it themselves, nor find (ii) the client’s capacity to represent himself or herself appropriate third-party support to offer help. and communicate his or her case, including any written I know that the Government are committed to documentation; reviewing these operations, and to make adjustments (iii) the client’s health (including mental health) issues; if they are not working correctly, but we could be 24 or 36 months into a new system before the figures are (iv) the impact and consequences on the client, or his or gathered and we understand who has been able to her family, of failing to receive advice and assistance access the right support. It is all well and good that a under this Part; client who makes it through the first call may be directly transferred to a specialist adviser, I take this to (v) the age of the client; or mean within the initial phone call—but I am still (vi) that it is otherwise in the interests of justice.” unclear about the route through for someone who will be advised to go to a face-to-face meeting. The current Baroness Grey-Thompson: My Lords, I thank the system relies on the individual being given three local Minister and his team for meeting with me earlier centres and then making the necessary arrangements, today and also for the letter I received this morning but surely the proposed system should be better than which laid out, with much greater clarity, issues previously the current one. How will this take-up rate be monitored discussed. I believe the telephone gateway will be to ensure that clients have taken the steps they are positive for many people, and perhaps would go so far entitled to, and what are the costs attached to them? as to say that, for some, it could be better. I welcome My last amendment was rejected under financial the details of the exclusions that have been given: arrangements, because there is a cost to it, but what is where there is an emergency; where the client has the cost of setting up this mandatory telephone gateway previously been assessed by the mandatory gateway as and, if vulnerable people are not able to access legal requiring advice face to face; where the client has aid, what are the potential costs that could be shifted accessed face-to-face advice within the past 12 months to other areas such as local authorities or the NHS? I and is seeking further help to resolve linked problems believe a little more flexibility is required to ensure from the same face-to-face provider; where the client is that the most vulnerable are able to access the support in detention; and where the client is a child, defined as they are entitled to. I beg to move. being under 18. Some of the reassurances that have been given are positive, but these are really around those with much less complex cases. 6pm In previous debates I have spoken much about the Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I listened cost to the system and to individuals. and I initially carefully to what the Minister said and I am afraid welcomed the call-back system that has been proposed. that I am not satisfied that the arrangements she However, on reflection, I cannot imagine an individual explained are anything like adequate to deal with the with a complex need or a vulnerable adult requesting more difficult cases that will be presented to those on this call back on the promise of a return call—there is the telephone lines. Indeed, the problem is that they just too much at stake. will not be presented at all. As one who spent a large I still have some areas of concern. The first is the part of his early days in the law trying to help ordinary continuing use of the word “mandatory”. I know that people with their so-called ordinary problems, I know this is an operational matter; not only does it sound that there is much greater difficulty in getting instructions inflexible, it is. There are still many unanswered questions from inarticulate, anxious or unconfident people than around the number of staff who will be employed, well intentioned, middle-class people can believe. both in the first line and specialist operators, and also It is simply unrealistic to say that when vulnerable the cost. It is to be welcomed they will be trained in people come on the phone there will be sympathetic listening, but the areas of law they will need to understand people to direct them here, there or somewhere else will be extensive and complicated. because they will never get on the phone. The reason is 1597 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1598 that today the law is so complicated that the kind of The proposed telephone gateway would simply not people I am thinking about will never get to the point be a suitable means for many people to access legal of understanding, in articulate terms or with any advice. Among the groups which the amendment seeks clarity, what their problem is. The only chance of them to protect are those whose disabilities and frailties getting to that point will be if they get before a would prevent them from being able to convey their sympathetic person, in a sympathetic context, who has case across the telephone; those whose first language the skill—and it takes skill—to coax out of them just is not English; and those whose cases are so sensitive what is the problem. Everyone sitting in this place may that they would be hindered in discussing the details say, “Well, for Pete’s sake, they all go to school and over the phone. That could include clients who have have got technology that can do this and do that”, but experienced abuse, rape and those with HIV/AIDS at least 10 per cent of our fellow citizens are not in that conditions. category—they are the most needy people—and a The Government’s proposals have no regard to the system which fails the most needy 10 per cent is simply individual circumstances of individual cases. People’s unacceptable. dignity should not be compromised in order to make I do not mind how many reviews we have about what are likely to amount to modest savings. Cases this, this system will not work for those people. I know should not be unnecessarily prolonged by operators it. I worked with the Samaritans for years, and every with little or no legal training. The Government should Samaritan knows that for every one person who comes surely listen to the many voices that oppose these on the telephone there are many more who never even proposals and reform this risky scheme. get that far. I am afraid to say that I shall be in opposition to the Government’s response to Amendment 24, the beauty Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I, too, have grave of which was that it was the Lord Chancellor’s duty to doubts as to whether a telephone helpline of the kind deal with people’s needs by a range of forms. Such a we are talking about can be regarded as fit for purpose system would be much more flexible. Indeed, the if the purpose is to disentangle the client’s case with Minister, quite rightly, said that the need for every empathy and give appropriate advice on it. The matter person to have face-to-face advice, as is required by is made worse if use of the telephone gateway is to be subsection (a) of the proposed new clause in Amendment made mandatory. There may be a place for a telephone 24B, is too inflexible. However, by the same token, her gateway—it can have a role in filtering cases, as the argument that every case will be dealt with by telephone Minister said—but it is surely entirely inappropriate is too monopolistic and will not work for a very that it is made the sole route to discriminating and important slice of the population. informed advice. I ask all noble Lords to think of someone they This is not a matter of speculation for we have been know who does not have the confidence to speak up, here before and we know what we are talking about. I the analytical ability to know quite what their problem am talking about the experience that we had with the is and certainly does not have the confidence to use student loans company when it took over the this facility, well intentioned though it is. I hope the administration of the disabled students’ allowance. Minister will reflect on what I have said and, if she This was administered by a service staffed by the kind doubts me, talk to others who know more than I. of people who will, presumably, be staffing the telephone Perhaps she will say in summing up what is now the gateway. They proved to have little understanding of position with the CABs and law centres. At least they or empathy with the kind of problems disabled students have the facility for people to go in and meet other have and for which they were seeking the support members of the public who work voluntarily for the provided by the disabled students’ allowance. In fact CAB and have time. It can often take half an hour to they were inclined to make light of them and even find out what the problem is. Is the funding of CABs suggest that the students were somehow swinging the and law centres now assured so that they can do that? lead or making unmeritorious excuses for financial support from the state. Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I agree with what Those applying for disabled students’ allowance the noble Lord has said. I can remember that many have much in common with the kind of vulnerable years ago, when I undertook my surgery in my people we are talking about needing help with welfare constituency, people came there who were all too often benefits cases. I would not wish to place my confidence inadequate, vulnerable and inarticulate. I do not know in a service of this kind as the mandatory gateway to how they could have possibly represented their case on legal advice and I do not think the House should the telephone; they were afraid of the telephone. All I either. wish to say in my brief remarks is that I have first-hand knowledge of what the noble Lord has said and that what is now being proposed will affect such people. Lord Bach: My Lords, it is rather disappointing to The majority of people who sought aid and assistance have to speak on this subject again. One hoped that that they would otherwise not have received were the other place might take note of our amendment incapable of representing their perfectly justified remarks. and carry it through. However, the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, has in her usual clear and well Lord Wigley: My Lords, Amendment 24B improves expressed way explained that our concern is not with on the original amendment rejected by another place telephone services per se. That is not the point at all. in that it specifies the criteria that should be taken into All of us here know the value of telephone services. I account when determining the client’s needs. saw it at first hand as a Minister and I am delighted 1599 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1600

[LORD BACH] to be in excess of £20 million per annum for both civil that the noble Baroness quoted me in her opening and criminal legal aid—I need to clarify that. remarks. I hope that that excellent work continues and In reaction to what the noble Baroness, Lady Grey- expands—of course I do. Thompson, said, I point out that stage one is where However, the point is that in a limited range of people come in and it is decided whether they need to cases, whether classified by the type of person, such as go through the telephone system. Stage two is the those with communication problems, or by the type of detailed case assessment of suitability. case, such as very complex cases or cases that require To my noble friend Lord Phillips I point out that searching through reams of papers to identify the the kind of cases to which he points may well be those nature of the real issue—a point that was made very that are then directed towards face-to-face advice. It is powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of extremely important to bear in mind the flexibility Sudbury—it is counterproductive to expect someone that is built into this system and to contrast that with to go through a telephone gateway. In those cases the lack of flexibility of insisting that the advice is face there should be a provision for face-to-face advice to face. This system means that when people are taken from the outset. That is hardly an unreasonable request. into the telephone system their cases can be assessed Indeed, it is common sense. to see whether they are suitable for phone advice or I am not the first and I will not be the last to remind face-to-face advice. the House that today is St George’s day. Perhaps in rather a laboured way, I make the point that there is an Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I did not explain myself English tradition of pragmatism, flexibility, seeing adequately. I was trying to get across the point that what actually works in the real world rather than what people will not get as far as a telephone. That is the I fear is behind the Government’s stance: too much problem. Once they are there, I absolutely think inflexibility, a kind of didacticism and, as I have that what my noble friend has explained to the House described before using a French expression, a rather is fine. However, I am talking about the people who, dirigiste approach towards this issue. It is an issue that for the reasons I tried to explain, will not have the cries out for flexibility and trying various ways to confidence or the competence to say what their problem make sure that people who need this help can get it. is over the phone because it is often so damn difficult The noble Baroness made her case very powerfully to do so. indeed and other speakers have supported her. I very much hope that we can ask the other House to think again on this. Baroness Northover: I understand what my noble I end by reminding the House of powerful words friend means about getting to that point. I ask him to spoken by the deputy leader of the Liberal Democrat ask himself how they would get to face-to-face advice. party in the other place just last Tuesday. He had There they are with a major problem. They may very listened carefully and he said this: well end up in a CAB, in which case the CAB may assist them in phoning the telephone gateway and may “I was grateful for the Minister’s reassurance, but I have to say that I am not persuaded. Like any MP with a constituency indicate in its call that this is a suitable candidate for containing people from many different races and backgrounds, face-to-face advice. My noble friend needs to go back with many different first languages, and with all the disabilities a bit and ask how the person who is in such circumstances that any mixed community has, I simply do not believe that a will access any advice and then see how this may route telephone route into deciding eligibility for legal aid is right them through to the kind of suitable, appropriate and for everybody. It may be right for many people, and I understand flexible advice that I hope I have laid out. that it will be a good service, but if we ask constituents such as mine whether they have always been satisfied with the council response line—whether under Labour now, or with us Lord Clinton-Davis: However, where someone is running it, as previously—the answer is always no. That does incapable of expressing themselves—I remember having not change, irrespective of who is running the show. I understand to listen to such a person for more than an hour—would the Government’s position and I hear what they say about a they not be excluded from what is being proposed? review, although I add a request for the review to be regional as well as general, but I believe that the Lords who pressed for amendment 24 have a well-made case. I shall support the Lords in Baroness Northover: Let us assume that that person respect of amendment 24”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/4/2012; has come to you as a constituency Member of cols. 206-07.] Parliament—I think that is the kind of case the noble I do not always, or even often, agree with the right Lord is talking about. Again, the Member of Parliament honourable Gentleman who I have just quoted at could phone the helpline and say that, for the reasons some length, but on this I do agree and I very much given by the noble Lord, in this case the person is hope that the House will too. likely to need face-to-face advice. If someone else, such as a family member, were to phone up, it would become apparent that the person in question could 6.15 pm not do this. For those reasons it becomes apparent Baroness Northover: My Lords, I thank noble Lords that this person is going to need face-to-face advice. for their attention to this very important area and I As I said in my introductory remarks, there are especially thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey- clearly cases where, for all sorts of reasons—and noble Thompson, for her kind words to my noble friend Lords have experience of these kinds of cases—that about his engagement with her concerns. I have a note person will not be best helped by the telephone. In that I need to correct the figure given for the costs of other cases that might be exactly what a person prefers: the noble Baroness’s amendment. The costs are likely the distance of telephone rather than face-to-face 1601 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1602 advice. They might not be able to get to wherever the areas of law and will be monitored from day one. face-to-face advice is, or they might find that Skype is Noble Lords have picked up on the review, but I assure what they want to use. them that we will keep a watching brief over this from The other point to bear in mind is the provision of the very beginning to make sure that it is working well. language translation. Some 170 languages can be provided The engagement with stakeholders that has already on the phone line, and very few CABs or constituency taken place and the need to make sure that everyone’s advice surgeries have that kind of provision; so there needs are addressed is a reflection of that. I can give are certain advantages to that provision that might be that further assurance. of help to other cases. The important thing to remember I hope that noble Lords will support the Government in all this is the equality duty—the diversity of people in this area. and their situations and our obligation to address those needs. Those needs will need to be met in different Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I am sorry to interrupt my ways, and that is built into how the system operates. noble friend again, but can she tell the House that the The very fact that the Samaritans have been involved review will be undertaken by an independent experienced in training the operators is an indication of how reviewer? seriously we consider the responsibility towards people with those diverse needs. Of course, the Samaritans operate a phone system for their own advice line. Baroness Northover: My noble friend assures me that we will review how this is working and publish the I assure the noble Lord that there will be no restriction findings. I am sure that noble Lords will scrutinise that on the length of time that a person can speak to a with the greatest of care. I reiterate that the operation caller. If that is the problem—that it is a matter of of the system will be monitored from the very beginning. time—it will not kick in here. Therefore, noble Lords do not need simply to wait for My noble friend Lord Phillips asked about the the review at the end of two years to make sure that Budget, which announced £40 million and £20 million this is working in the way that we trust will assist in each of the remaining years of the spending review. people, as opposed to raising the concerns that noble I think he sought assurance of provision for the CABs. Lords have expressed. I hope that the noble Baroness I have emphasised how operator service staff and will be able to withdraw her amendment. specialist telephone advisers will be trained to be aware of the needs of callers, especially those with Baroness Grey-Thompson: I thank noble Lords who mental health and learning impairment problems. There have taken part in this afternoon’s debate, in particular will be reasonable adjustments and adaptations available the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury. Not for the to assist callers, including provision for a third party first time, I wish that I had trained in the law rather such as a family member to call on an individual’s than doing a politics degree. I accept that my wording behalf. As long as a person authorises someone to call could be slightly better but, as the noble Lord, Lord on their behalf, the third party could equally be a Wigley, said, it has been improved since the last time I member of a CAB or other support or advice service. moved the amendment. If the caller is assessed as unsuitable for telephone It seems that we are stuck in two slightly inflexible advice, they will still have access to face-to-face assistance viewpoints. I wholeheartedly agree with the noble and be referred directly to that provider. That is an Lord, Lord Low, when he says that there is a place for improvement over the current situation, in which they a gateway. However, I also believe that there is a place might be given three phone numbers of advisers whom for something else to help the most vulnerable. One they then have to contact. Again, they have to use the idiosyncrasy of this system is that an individual could telephone to set up these appointments, whereas with go into a citizens advice bureau and ask for help but this they could be referred directly to that provider be told to ring a phone number and be sent away. In an and will not have to find the face-to-face ideal situation, that person would be able to stay in the provider themselves from those phone numbers, and citizens advice bureau and make the call from there, those providers will have to make contact back to the and could even have that third party support. If they person. are sent away, they may take that to mean that they are Noble Lords might bear in mind how flexible the not eligible or that they do not understand some of system is within the new arrangements. In December, the issues. the noble Lord, Lord Bach, referred to the satisfaction I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for rates with both the existing community legal advice her comments. It is probably not the right time to helpline operator service and the specialist telephone debate this, but now that we have a system that can be advice service; 96 per cent of respondents found the accessed on the internet through www.directgov.com operator service helpful, and the 2010 survey of clients or by Skype and through phone calls—there is information advised by telephone showed that 90 per cent of coming back and forth—I wonder whether there are respondents found the advice provided helpful. That is not almost too many options for people. Perhaps a a very encouraging response. gateway and the potential for a face-to-face interview As I emphasised, and as we will continue to might be the simplest way to do it. emphasise, we will keep this under review so that we I go back to the point made by the noble Lord, can make sure that it is working as effectively as Lord Phillips of Sudbury. I am sure that everyone in possible. As my noble friend Lord McNally assured your Lordships’ House knows one, two, or maybe the House, I assure noble Lords that the telephone more people who would struggle to make that first gateway will apply initially to only a limited number of contact and might drop out of the system, finding it 1603 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1604

[BARONESS GREY-THOMPSON] Jones, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. too much to cope with, and would therefore not be Jones of Whitchurch, B. Ramsbotham, L. able to access the help that they need. So as much as Jordan, L. Rea, L. Judd, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. there has been some positive movement today and Kennedy of Southwark, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. some very positive comments, I am not reassured that Kestenbaum, L. Richard, L. the most vulnerable would be supported through this King of Bow, B. Richardson of Calow, B. system. Very reluctantly, I wish to test the opinion of King of West Bromwich, L. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. the House. Kinnock, L. Rogan, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Rooker, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Rosser, L. 6.28 pm Laird, L. Rowlands, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Division on Motion D1. Leitch, L. St Edmundsbury and Ipswich, Levy, L. Bp. Contents 231; Not-Contents 243. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Sawyer, L. Liddle, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. Motion D1 disagreed. Lipsey, L. Sewel, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. Sheldon, L. Division No. 3 Listowel, E. Sherlock, B. Lloyd of Berwick, L. Simon, V. CONTENTS Low of Dalston, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Luce, L. Smith of Finsbury, L. Aberdare, L. Evans of Parkside, L. McAvoy, L. Snape, L. Adams of Craigielea, B. Evans of Temple Guiting, L. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Soley, L. Adonis, L. Falconer of Thoroton, L. McFall of Alcluith, L. Stern, B. Ahmed, L. Falkland, V. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Alton of Liverpool, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Stoddart of Swindon, L. Andrews, B. Faulkner of Worcester, L. L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Fellowes, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Bach, L. Finlay of Llandaff, B. Mallalieu, B. Taylor of Bolton, B. Barnett, L. Ford, B. Manchester, Bp. Temple-Morris, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Martin of Springburn, L. Thornton, B. Bath and Wells, Bp. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Tonge, B. Beecham, L. Freyberg, L. Massey of Darwen, B. Touhig, L. Berkeley, L. Gale, B. Maxton, L. Triesman, L. Bew, L. Gavron, L. Mitchell, L. Tunnicliffe, L. Bhattacharyya, L. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Monks, L. Turnberg, L. Billingham, B. Giddens, L. Moonie, L. Turner of Camden, B. Bilston, L. Glasman, L. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Wall of New Barnet, B. Blackstone, B. Golding, B. Morgan of Ely, B. Walpole, L. Blood, B. Goldsmith, L. Morgan of Huyton, B. Walton of Detchant, L. Boateng, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Morris of Aberavon, L. Warner, L. Borrie, L. Goudie, B. Morris of Handsworth, L. Warnock, B. Bradley, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. Morris of Manchester, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Bragg, L. Grabiner, L. Morris of Yardley, B. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Brennan, L. Grantchester, L. Nye, B. West of Spithead, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Greengross, B. O’Loan, B. Wheeler, B. Brookman, L. Grenfell, L. Pannick, L. [Teller] Whitaker, B. Browne of Belmont, L. Grey-Thompson, B. [Teller] Patel of Blackburn, L. Whitty, L. Browne of Ladyton, L. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Pendry, L. Wigley, L. Cameron of Dillington, L. Grocott, L. Peston, L. Williams of Baglan, L. Campbell-Savours, L. Hanworth, V. Phillips of Sudbury, L. Williams of Elvel, L. Carter of Coles, L. Harries of Pentregarth, L. Pitkeathley, B. Wills, L. Clancarty, E. Harris of Haringey, L. Plant of Highfield, L. Wilson of Tillyorn, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Winston, L. Clinton-Davis, L. Haskel, L. Prashar, B. Wood of Anfield, L. Cohen of Pimlico, B. Haworth, L. Prescott, L. Woolf, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Hayman, B. Prosser, B. Woolmer of Leeds, L. Corston, B. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Puttnam, L. Worthington, B. Cox, B. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Quin, B. Young of Hornsey, B. Craig of Radley, L. Henig, B. Radice, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Crawley, B. Hennessy of Nympsfield, L. Cunningham of Felling, L. Hereford, Bp. NOT CONTENTS Davies of Oldham, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Davies of Stamford, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Addington, L. Barker, B. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, Howarth of Newport, L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Bates, L. B. Howells of St Davids, B. Alderdice, L. Benjamin, B. Deech, B. Howie of Troon, L. Allan of Hallam, L. Berridge, B. Desai, L. Hoyle, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Black of Brentwood, L. Dixon, L. Hughes of Stretford, B. Arran, E. Blencathra, L. Donaghy, B. Hughes of Woodside, L. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Donoughue, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Hamdon, L. B. Drake, B. Hylton, L. Ashton of Hyde, L. Drayson, L. Irvine of Lairg, L. Astor, V. Bowness, L. Dubs, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. Astor of Hever, L. Bradshaw, L. Elder, L. Jay of Paddington, B. Attlee, E. Bridgeman, V. Elystan-Morgan, L. Joffe, L. Avebury, L. Brinton, B. 1605 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1606

Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Howe, E. Razzall, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. L. Howe of Aberavon, L. Reay, L. Storey, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Howell of Guildford, L. Redesdale, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. Browning, B. Hunt of Wirral, L. Rennard, L. Strasburger, L. Burnett, L. Hussain, L. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Strathclyde, L. Buscombe, B. Hussein-Ece, B. Ribeiro, L. Sutherland of Houndwood, L. Butler of Brockwell, L. Inglewood, L. Risby, L. Taylor of Goss Moor, L. Byford, B. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Roberts of Conwy, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Caithness, E. Jenkin of Roding, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Teverson, L. Rotherwick, L. Campbell of Alloway, L. Jolly, B. Thomas of Gresford, L. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Carlile of Berriew, L. Jones of Birmingham, L. Tope, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Cathcart, E. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Tordoff, L. Cavendish of Furness, L. Kakkar, L. Sanderson of Bowden, L. Sassoon, L. Trefgarne, L. Chalker of Wallasey, B. King of Bridgwater, L. Trimble, L. Chester, Bp. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Scott of Needham Market, B. Seccombe, B. True, L. Chidgey, L. Kramer, B. Tugendhat, L. Clement-Jones, L. Laming, L. Selborne, E. Tyler, L. Colwyn, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Tyler of Enfield, B. Cope of Berkeley, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Selsdon, L. Cormack, L. Lawson of Blaby, L. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Ullswater, V. Cotter, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Sharkey, L. Verma, B. Courtown, E. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Sharp of Guildford, B. Wade of Chorlton, L. Crickhowell, L. Lexden, L. Sharples, B. Wakeham, L. Cumberlege, B. Lingfield, L. Sheikh, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. De Mauley, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Shephard of Northwold, B. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Dear, L. Liverpool, E. Shipley, L. Walmsley, B. Deben, L. Loomba, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Warsi, B. Dholakia, L. Lothian, M. Skelmersdale, L. Wasserman, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Luke, L. Slim, V. Wei, L. Dobbs, L. Lyell, L. Smith of Clifton, L. Wheatcroft, B. Doocey, B. McColl of Dulwich, L. Spicer, L. Wilcox, B. Dykes, L. MacGregor of Pulham Stedman-Scott, B. Williams of Crosby, B. Eaton, B. Market, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Williamson of Horton, L. Eccles, V. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Stephen, L. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Eden of Winton, L. MacLaurin of Knebworth, L. Stewartby, L. Younger of Leckie, V. Elton, L. Maclennan of Rogart, L. Empey, L. McNally, L. 6.41 pm Falkner of Margravine, B. Maddock, B. Faulks, L. Magan of Castletown, L. Fearn, L. Mancroft, L. Motion D agreed. Fink, L. Mar and Kellie, E. Flight, L. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Motion E Fookes, B. L. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Marland, L. Moved by Lord McNally Fowler, L. Marlesford, L. Framlingham, L. Mawhinney, L. That this House do not insist on its Amendment 31 Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Mawson, L. to which the Commons have disagreed for their Freeman, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Reason 31A. Freud, L. Meacher, B. Garden of Frognal, B. Methuen, L. 31A Because it is not appropriate to make an exception Gardiner of Kimble, L. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Gardner of Parkes, B. B. from clauses 43, 45 and 46 for proceedings which include Geddes, L. Montagu of Beaulieu, L. a claim for damages for respiratory disease or illness German, L. Montrose, D. arising from industrial exposure to harmful substances. Glasgow, E. Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Glenarthur, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Lord McNally: My Lords, when we were opening Glendonbrook, L. Naseby, L. Glentoran, L. Neville-Jones, B. this debate the noble Lord, Lord Alton, intervened to Gold, L. Newby, L. make the very valid point that it was only by him Goodhart, L. Newlove, B. raising the issue of mesothelioma in debate in this Goodlad, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, House that this important issue has received the attention Goschen, V. B. that it deserved. I pay tribute to him, having known Grade of Yarmouth, L. Noakes, B. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. Northbourne, L. him for a long time as an adept campaigner. Whatever Hamilton of Epsom, L. Northbrook, L. happens, he can take great credit for the way that he Hamwee, B. Northover, B. has focused attention on this terrible disease. As with Hanham, B. Norton of Louth, L. some of our other debates, however, this is not about Hannay of Chiswick, L. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. whether you are in favour of or against mesothelioma Harris of Peckham, L. O’Cathain, B. victims. This is a debate about how our legal system is Harris of Richmond, B. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Henley, L. Palmer, L. being reformed. Heyhoe Flint, B. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. We are implementing fundamental reforms of Higgins, L. Parminter, B. conditional fee agreements, or CFAs, following the Hill of Oareford, L. Patten, L. recommendations in Lord Justice Jackson’s review of Home, E. Perry of Southwark, B. Hooper, B. Popat, L. civil litigation costs. The current regime allows for Howard of Lympne, L. Randerson, B. risk-free litigation for claimants and substantial additional Howard of Rising, L. Rawlings, B. costs for defendants. We want to restore a fair balance 1607 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1608

[LORD MCNALLY] for settling these disputes, a programme that will be to the system, with meritorious cases being brought speedier and avoid unnecessary litigation. at proportionate cost. We are therefore abolishing The Government are not ignorant of or indifferent recoverability of success fees and “after the event”, or to the plight of mesothelioma sufferers. These are ATE, insurance premiums. These reforms are intended important cases which need to be dealt with as quickly to apply across the board and will cause a real shift in as possible—that is a matter of humanity. Of course, our society’s approach to litigation. greater speed generally also means reduced costs, which That is the general case, and it is important not to benefits everyone. As I say, we are actively working lose sight of it in considering respiratory disease claims, with the DWP to ensure that victims can access the mesothelioma claims or others, but I want to repeat help that they need. I urge noble Lords to consider the some specific points about mesothelioma. No one is whole picture, not just the element of reform which we suggesting that these tragic cases are contributing in have in front of us today. The work that we are doing any way to what has been described as a compensation on civil litigation costs is closely related to the work culture—this is a horrible disease which acts very fast, that we are undertaking on helping mesothelioma and that suggestion has never been any part of my victims who are unable to trace their insurers. To case in putting forward the Government’s position, as undermine one reform may be to endanger another, noble Lords know. It is a horrific disease and we have which is a scenario that we should avoid. I urge noble nothing but sympathy and compassion for its victims. Lords not to insist on Amendment 31 and to support Recent Governments of all colours have taken measures Motion E. I beg to move. to help claimants in these cases, and this Government are continuing that work with due urgency. Motion E1 (as an amendment to Motion E) 6.45 pm Moved by Lord Alton of Liverpool In an earlier debate I spoke of recent legal changes that have significantly lowered the bar for mesothelioma Leave out from “House” to end and insert “do claims. These cases are always tragic but they are insist on its Amendment 31”. mainly straightforward and relatively low risk. The costs should not be as high as they can be under the current regime. Legal costs need to be controlled in Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, before the vote these cases, as in others. These reforms have been on 15 March on Report, a cross-party group of carefully put together as a balanced package. Having 18 Members of your Lordships’ House signed a letter considered the interests of claimants against the interests urging us to defend the rights of mesothelioma victims. of defendants, we are implementing a number of The House subsequently voted by a majority of 31 in additional measures. These include a 10 per cent increase favour of that amendment, which enables victims of in damages for non-pecuniary loss and, in personal asbestos to keep 100 per cent of their much-needed injury cases, a cap on the success fee of 25 per cent of compensation. The amendment adds nothing to the damages, excluding future care and loss. Let me emphasise public purse—that is why there is no financial privilege that that is a maximum cap. No lawyer is required to claim against it—but it seeks to support terminally ill take any success fee from a claimant, and many lawyers victims of mesothelioma and their families. will wish to maximise the damages that victims can All sides of your Lordships’ House have agreed that receive. We are also introducing qualified one-way such cases are, as the Minister has just reiterated, not costs-shifting so that “after the event” insurance is no part of a compensation culture. No one has been able longer necessary in respect of the other side’s costs. to give any examples of fraudulent or frivolous claims, These measures are intended to work alongside the and nothing that the noble Lord has said today would abolition of recoverability to ensure that all sides have dispute that. Indeed, at no stage during our proceedings an interest in keeping costs down and resolving more has he ever either asserted or implied that. However, I claims more quickly. Because speed is the other crucial was concerned to see that the Minister in another element in mesothelioma cases, it is imperative that place, Mr Jonathan Djanogly, in disputing this fair compensation is paid as quickly as possible. Under amendment, said that the current regime, the current regime, however, standard cases can take “was meant to promote access to justice but has frequently ended as long as two years or more to be resolved. That is up as something of a racket allowing risk-free litigation for often longer than the sufferer survives. The Government claimants, inflated profits for legal firms, and punitive additional have their part to play in speeding up this process and costs for defendants”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/4/12; we are engaged with stakeholders and government col. 265.] colleagues in relation to it. However, to exempt I wonder what the noble Lord has to say in contradicting mesothelioma cases wholly from our reforms would that assertion made in another place. The Minister be to retain the status quo, undermining the package there was challenged to name one case where a of reforms and allowing cases to drag on. mesothelioma victim had taken an unreasonable or I should highlight that the reforms under Part 2 are vexatious case to court. He chose not to do so. On not taking place in isolation. Last week I met with the reflection, I am sure that he would want to reconsider Minister for Welfare Reform, my noble friend Lord linking bogus claims to the issue of mesothelioma. Freud, to discuss the work that he is actively undertaking The Minister then said two other things which I ask with stakeholders. I am glad to confirm that real the noble Lord, Lord McNally, to ask his right honourable progress has been made and that the Department for friend the Justice Secretary, Mr Kenneth Clarke, to Work and Pensions hopes to make an announcement ponder. One was the suggestion that people dying of before the House rises for the summer on a programme mesothelioma should be “watching the clock”, which 1609 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1610 is a phrase that was used in the other place—in other honourable Members of the House of Commons also words, policing what lawyers are charging. He said hoped to speak but were unable to do so. that, In the Division which followed, Conservative and “it is quite right that someone who employs a lawyer has some Liberal Democrat Members of Parliament were among idea of what is on that lawyer’s clock and what they are charging. those who voted for the amendment. The speech by That is very important. If someone is sick, they will have family Tracey Crouch, the Member of Parliament for Chatham who can help them through their sickness”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/4/12; col. 268.] and Aylesford, who previously worked in the insurance industry, is especially noteworthy. She said: I suspect that when you are dying, especially from a “It is not my insurance background that drives my real interest debilitating and excruciatingly painful disease, you in this issue; it is on a constituency basis that I care most. Medway may have other things on your mind than watching the has been highlighted as a hot spot for mesothelioma, which is lawyer’s clock. As one widow put it: unsurprising given that the towns have historically provided the “Mesothelioma sufferers are in constant pain and always industrial hub for Kent, and that the Chatham dockyard was one fighting to breathe, they suffer horrendously and they and their of the biggest employers for many decades”. families are traumatised at what the future holds”. Supporting her, Andrew Bingham, Conservative She also said: Member of Parliament for High Peak commented on the all-pervasive nature of this pernicious disease. He “Whilst you are trying to cope with the physical and emotional trauma that comes with the words, terminal illness you cannot said: contemplate the extra worry and anxiety that claiming compensation “My constituency, like that of my hon. Friend, has a higher would bring”. than average incidence of mesothelioma. We have no shipbuilding, but there has been significant employment in other asbestos-related It is also erroneous to suggest that everyone has industries across the High Peak.—[Official Report, Commons, relatives to fight their corner for them. Even if they do, 17/3/12; col. 271.] should that be their primary concern when a loved one Unsurprisingly, with 30,000 deaths thus far, and is in the last few months of their life? It is not the job many thousands more to come, many honourable of someone dying of mesothelioma to become the Members talked about their own experiences in dealing Government’s regulator or watchdog, watching the clock with asbestos-related cases, and there was a series of or challenging exorbitant legal fees. That is the job of very well-made speeches. Mr Andy Slaughter, the Member regulators, not victims of a lethal industrial injury. of Parliament for Hammersmith, reminded the House The Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East, Mr Paul of Commons that it is misleading to suggest that Goggins, who kindly shepherded this amendment in victims would be better off as a consequence of a the Commons, asked with great clarity: 10 per cent uplift if some victims were to lose up to “How can the Minister expect such victims and their families— 25 per cent of their damages. He said: people who have received the diagnosis and know that they are “The Government have refused to reduce base costs for lawyers, going to die—to shop around for the cheapest possible lawyer which would be the obvious way to stop inflated costs. Instead, when they need every ounce of their energy to fight their disease?”.— they are going after victims’ damages. The beneficiaries of all this [Official Report, Commons, 17/4/12; col. 278.] will be the defendants and their insurers. They will have significantly Although our amendment was rejected in the reduced liabilities if they lose”.—[Official Report, Commons, Commons, it once again enjoyed all-party support 17/3/12; cols. 269-70.] and the government majority was one of the smallest Tracey Crouch said: since coming to office. That underlines the crucial role “I note the Association of British Insurers is warning that of your Lordships’ House in scrutinising legislation, mesothelioma sufferers might not benefit from those reforms if especially on a day when the House is once again the amendment goes through. I do not believe that, and I want to being told that it must be reformed. It is worth noting, issue the counter-warning that, on fatal industrial diseases such as as I did earlier in an intervention following the remarks mesothelioma, the Government will be judged on what they do to help victims, whether through financial or other types of support.— of the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, that this issue was [Official Report, Commons, 17/4/12; col. 272.] not even debated in earlier Commons stages. Our Lords amendment gave the Commons its first opportunity I spoke to Tracey Crouch earlier today and she told to consider an exception for those who had no chance me that if we send this amendment back to the House of surviving their illness and little hope of seeing of Commons she will persist in championing it. The justice done in their lifetime. It is not a bad illustration reason why Members feel so strongly was summed up of what one national newspaper described as “the very well by Mr Ian Lucas, the Member of Parliament conscience role” frequently played by this House and for Wrexham. He is a lawyer and said: how it scrutinises and examines details of legislation “I am a solicitor, and I did not go into the law to take damages and its effects. When an issue of this importance, away from a dying person, pending the outcome of a claim”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/3/12; col. 275.] affecting thousands of terminally ill people can be overlooked at Second Reading and then caught by a Finally, in resisting the amendment in the Commons, guillotine at Committee and Report stages, leaving it Mr Djanogly said that if it were passed, completely undebated, that raises some serious questions “claimants in mesothelioma cases would have an advantage over about which House is most in need of reform. others”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/3/12; col. 268.] By sending this amendment back to the Commons, An advantage over others? It is hard to think of many it finally allowed a one-hour debate to occur last advantages enjoyed by victims of mesothelioma. That Wednesday, although the Member for Scunthorpe, was an ill-judged and insensitive remark. Mr Dakin, was at the very beginning of his remarks The Minister argued that it would be unjust to when the guillotine fell and we never got to hear what single out one class of claimants for exemption. Of he wanted to say on behalf of his constituents. Other course it is never possible to do what we would like for 1611 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1612

[LORD ALTON OF LIVERPOOL] 7pm everyone—I fully accept that—but does that mean that we can never see the difference between one Lord Avebury: My Lords, I join my noble friend category of victims and another? Is there not a difference Lord McNally in paying tribute to the noble Lord, between someone lodging a claim for whiplash and Lord Alton, who has fought so tenaciously for the someone who has contracted a terminal illness? Are rights of mesothelioma victims and their bereaved we really incapable of prioritising or seeing grounds families over many months and previously, before we for exceptions, as we have now, for instance, in medical got to these debates. I know that he has always espoused negligence cases—and rightly so? their rights and tried to do the best that he could for them. I also thank my noble friend Lord McNally for Noble Lords should recall that mesothelioma has what he said about the Government’s intentions, the attracted more legal challenges to limit liability for programme for settling cases without the necessity to compensation than any other disease. Exceptionally, go to court and the development of a scheme analogous mesothelioma has a latency period of up to 60 years. to that which operates in the case of motor accidents It is a fatal disease; there is no cure. No industrial where it is impossible to find the insurer. I welcome disease places claimants in such difficult circumstances those moves but they are not in any way in conflict when facing the stress of taking legal action. with what the noble Lord, Lord Alton, proposes in his It is moving to reflect on the comments of the late amendment. Lord Newton of Braintree, who was one of the key supporters of this amendment. Lord Newton, a former The arguments in favour of the amendment have Secretary of State, Minister for disabled people and been covered exhaustively in both Houses and I do not Leader of the House of Commons, referring to victims propose to repeat any of them now. I will say only that of asbestos exposure, said: it is incomprehensible that, in the face of near unanimity on all sides among those who have spoken in those “I have some experience of claims relating to that disease—or debates, the Government are still unwilling to give rather to mesothelioma … I think there is a real case for wondering whether we should not maintain assistance to that group of way. The argument that the amendment undermines people … this condition is what you might call very slow burn. the principle that in CFA cases the success fee and the Exposure to asbestos that occurred very many years ago may give ATE are to be paid by the winning claimant is destroyed rise much later to mesothelioma, one of the nastiest forms of by the concession that has been made on clinical cancer”. negligence cases. He concluded by saying: In moving to reject the amendment in another “I hope my noble friends on the Front Bench will not consider place, Mr Djanogly said that it was unnecessary because that this amendment would have a scattergun effect but that it is there was nothing in the Government’s proposals to well targeted and deserves careful consideration”.—[Official Report, prevent cases being taken or those affected receiving 30/1/12; col. 1359.] appropriate damages. If he had read the evidence In a letter to the Times from my noble and learned that was provided by the Asbestos Victims Support friend Lady Butler-Sloss, the noble Baroness, Lady Groups Forum UK, he would know that that was not Finlay, the noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord true because many victims have said that they would Avebury, and myself and others, we remarked on the not have brought cases if they had known that the creation of an exceptional injustice if this amendment success fees and ATE insurance would be deducted is not supported. We said: from the damages awarded. The Minister did not “Asbestos victims should not, and financially cannot, subsidise reply when asked directly by Kate Green whether he other claimants’ access to justice, nor can they afford to defend accepted that some cases would go unrepresented and test cases run by rich insurers”. unpursued. The letter urged Parliament, Secondly, he trotted out the argument of inconsistency. “to protect asbestos victims from a gross injustice”. Throughout these debates we have been perfectly clear Following the Commons debate, I am glad to say in saying that we wanted to make an exception for the that the noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Freud, victims of what is universally acknowledged to be a held talks last week with the right honourable Member particularly horrible disease that is invariably fatal, for Wythenshawe and Sale East, Mr Goggins, and me. and the majority who voted for it were fully aware they They are actively trying to find ways forward and I were making an exception to the general pattern of welcome that. As one can imagine, we were treated CFA cases. The Minister then insinuated that the with characteristic respect and understanding. The claims dealt with in the amendment were part of the movers of the amendment made it clear to Ministers compensation culture—an infamous suggestion that we are looking for a constructive outcome. If it when we are talking about people who are terminally comes to a Division, I hope that the House will ill. He went on to say that the Government were continue to support the amendment while we continue not persuaded that these cases were substantially to seek an agreed way forward. Society owes a huge different from other personal injury cases. I question debt to those who are now losing their lives to this whether he bothered to read our debates or has any terrible disease. Thousands of people will lose their knowledge of the ordeal that is experienced by lives in decades to come as a result of criminally mesothelioma sufferers in the final months of their negligent exposure to asbestos long after the dangers lives. This is graphically described in the evidence were known to government, industry and health and submitted by the victims and relatives’ organisations, safety enforcement agencies. I hope that noble Lords and known about directly by many past and present will join me in keeping this issue in contention until a honourable Members from testimony that they received just solution is achieved. I beg to move. at their advice bureaux. 1613 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1614

Finally, the Minister said that the Government success fee should be charged when a case settles. That were determined to bring down the cost of litigation. would do a great deal to alleviate the problems of Let us be clear that, as my noble friend Lord McNally which the noble Lord, Lord Alton, speaks. He is right. acknowledged, in this amendment we are talking about I stand along with Ian Lucas, my Member of Parliament whether the claimant or the defendant pays the success in Wrexham, who as a lawyer says, “We didn’t come fee. No cost to the taxpayer arises. into this profession in order to take money from In another place, five Conservative honourable injured people”. I think that only a heartless claimant’s Members defied the Whip by voting for the mesothelioma solicitor would charge a success fee in cases of this amendment and several others abstained. It can be nature. assumed that if it had been a free vote, the other place would have upheld the amendment and we would not Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, I have no be debating it today. It is only right that we should give doubt at all about the sincerity of the noble Lord, them another opportunity to set aside the callous Lord McNally, and the compassion for victims of treatment that the Government have insisted on all mesothelioma that he expressed at the outset of his along, and to substitute what we all know is the fair speech. None the less, he felt that he must advise the and compassionate answer. House to reject the amendment so powerfully moved by the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool. Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, I add my I say to the Minister that there is no virtue for the support to the noble Lord, Lord Alton. As constituency Government in dogmatic consistency. I believe that MPs, many of us saw cases to do with this very issue they would do themselves good and, much more and the difficulties that some of our constituents had importantly, they would do a great deal of good for in establishing liability after years of contact. I added those diagnosed with mesothelioma, as well as their my name to the noble Lord’s original amendment and families and dependents, if they would agree to make heard his speech then, which set out the case admirably. an exception in this instance. If they were to do so, it I congratulate him on continuing to expose such an would not create a permanent anomaly, and in the injustice. At this late hour, all I wish to say is that my short term I do not believe that it would undermine support continues and I hope that the noble Lord will the central principles of the Government’s reforms succeed. because they are absolutely secured in the legislation that Parliament will pass. In any case, the Minister Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, why success need not fear because this is a category of cases that is fees should be claimed at all by lawyers in this type of going to reduce in number over time. Mesothelioma is, case just defeats me. The problem is in identifying the I understand, exclusively associated with exposure to insurers of a particular firm that may have exposed asbestos. All too belatedly the terrible damage that the sufferer to asbestos many years before. I am delighted asbestos can do to human health was recognised, and to hear that discussions are afoot on setting up a for some time due to regulations and industrial practice scheme akin to the Motor Insurers’ Bureau, whereby there has been no further exposure of people to this insurers come together to meet the damages and costs hazard. We can foretell with confidence that this category of a sufferer who cannot identify a particular insurance of cases will dwindle and, I think, disappear. Therefore, company behind his former employer. I hope that the Minister need not worry that there will be a comes to pass. If it does, it will cure a lot of problems. permanent anomaly. I say to him that he does not It is obvious when a person suffers from mesothelioma; need to persist in a doctrinaire position which runs you do not have to prove that someone is suffering counter to his own very real human sympathies. from this condition. As a result of the Supreme Court’s decision last Lord Faulks: My Lords, what was said in the other year, it has to be shown only that an employer has place about there being some advantage, as the noble exposed an individual to asbestos in the past for that Lord, Lord Alton, said, in any case of mesothelioma individual’s claim to succeed. The statistics show that these was most unfortunate and was, I hope, a simple slip of cases settle. What does that mean? It means that the the tongue. Using this appalling disease to give an fees of the lawyer are not at risk; he will have his example of the compensation culture was equally ill ordinary fees paid by the insurer. Therefore, why should advised. It plainly is not. he get a success fee over and above that? On Report, I There is no dispute about the diagnosis of proposed that there should certainly be no success fee mesothelioma on any occasion. However, this is part payable if a case settles before steps are taken to bring of Part 2 of the Bill, and Amendments 31 and 32 have it to trial. I ask the Minister to take this into account the effect of undermining the structure of the Bill. when regulations are drawn up under what will be Part 2 was the result of Lord Justice Jackson’s report Section 46. The lawyer is not at risk. He has done and represents an attempt to remove some of the more nothing to earn more than the fees that he can properly unattractive and, frankly, almost iniquitous aspects of charge. We did not have success fees in the past. We the system that had grown up as a result of the acted for people and, if we lost, we did not charge changes unleashed by the previous Government’s them. When we won, we got our costs and the expenses legislation. The fact that this amendment would create that we had paid from the other side, properly taxed. an exception to this new, much fairer and proportionate That was how the system worked. system is not of course itself a reason for objecting to I hope that the Government can bring in a combination the amendment if it would be a denial of justice to of the Motor Insurers’ Bureau scheme for this type of these very deserving cases. There is no doubt that they case and couple it with regulations that say that no are highly deserving cases and that they need 1615 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1616

[LORD FAULKS] accept that cases will not be brought if the amendment compensation quickly.The Government have announced is not restored to the Bill? If so, there is a very that there will be an increase in general damages by powerful case for an exception, as otherwise people 10 per cent. I have to admit that I remain somewhat will be denied justice for an extremely serious illness queasy, in common with other noble Lords, about the by reason of what I think the noble Lord, Lord 25 per cent success fee that will be paid to successful Howarth, called dogmatic consistency. I share his lawyers in these cases, but the Government have said—and view that dogmatic consistency is not a necessity for I think they are right—that the competition for these any Act of Parliament. Indeed, one has only to cases is such that they cannot imagine that those examine half a dozen at random to see how little lawyers will insist on their success fee. A number of dogmatic consistency there is in Acts of Parliament. experienced lawyers are well geared up to taking these Therefore, I hope that the Minister will give us that cases, as they have done over the years, and I very information during this debate so that we can make an much doubt that they will want a success fee. They are, informed judgment in deciding whether to vote and, if after all, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, said, lawyers so, how. who will recover the costs to which they are entitled. If those costs are not agreed, they will be entitled to have Lord Wills: My Lords, the case for this amendment them assessed by a costs judge, and in due course was powerfully made in this House last month and in qualified one-way costs shifting should assist. the other place last week, and I rise now briefly to add another voice in urging Ministers to think again, even 7.15 pm at this late stage, and to try to find a constructive What is important about these cases is that, as a solution to this issue. result of a series of Acts of Parliament and decisions Before coming to your Lordships’ House, I was an of the courts, they are no longer difficult to prove. MP in Swindon. Because of that town’s industrial With respect, they are not like some of the more history and particularly because of the large railway complex clinical negligence cases where there are great works, which employed many thousands of people differences of opinion over causation or diagnosis. It over many years, this illness was known locally as the really is not complicated to prove these cases; nor Swindon cancer. I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord should it be. Alton, for his sterling efforts on behalf of all my Therefore, the question is this: will lawyers take the former constituents who have suffered from this terrible cases? If they will, there will not be the terrible denial disease and, I am afraid, will suffer from it in years of justice to which the noble Lord refers. In my view, ahead. they will take the cases. They will be properly rewarded Ministers have claimed that it would be wrong for financially for doing so and they will have the satisfaction various reasons—I understand and completely accept of representing those who deserve compensation. what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has said about Therefore, while having every sympathy for the sufferers this—to make a special case for this one disease. The and great admiration for the campaign that has been fact, however, of this disease’s particular virulence, launched on their behalf, we need to stand back and that it is inevitably fatal, that it progresses with terrifying say what this amendment is about. It is about whether speed, that it is hard even to find palliative care for it lawyers will be paid more money and whether the fact once it has taken hold, all argue powerfully for it being that they will be paid less money will prevent these just such a special case. cases taking place. I do not believe that it will. It is unconscionable to force sufferers from this Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, the noble Lord, terrible disease, and their families, at a time when Lord Alton of Liverpool, has made a very persuasive every hour is precious to them, to go through the case for those who suffer from mesothelioma. Part of processes required by this Bill to secure the compensation that case is that he believes—and he has much support to which they are entitled. Those are fundamental for this—that there will be sufferers from mesothelioma points for me—whether they can secure lawyers and who will not be able to recover damages unless the whether success fees are to be secured for the lawyers. amendment that was previously passed remains in the Every hour is precious. The people who are diagnosed Bill. We have just heard from an expert on personal with this illness have months and sometimes only injury cases—my noble friend Lord Faulks—who has weeks to live. We should not force them to go through expressed the contrary view. He said that lawyers will the processes required by this Bill. be prepared to take these cases because they are not As my noble friend Lord Howarth has already said, very difficult to prove and that there will be no deficit accepting this amendment would do no damage to the for potential claimants if the amendment is not restored fundamental principles behind the Government’s reforms to the Bill. That leaves those of us who are genuinely of the legal aid system. It is the only decent thing to interested in knowing the truth about these claims on do. the horns of a dilemma. Given that there is no claim of financial privilege in relation to this amendment, the Lord Bach: My Lords, it is the Opposition’s view answer to that dilemma is extremely important. that there should be no moneys taken from victims’ Therefore, I, for one—and I am sure that other damages in these cases. That is the basis of our view. noble Lords around the House share this view—would So we speak in favour of the amendment that has be grateful if in replying to this debate or at some been so well moved. point during the debate the Minister could tell us There is a great feeling across this House that we whether the department has made an assessment of have to protect victims of industrial disease and ensure this problem. What is the department’s view? Does it that they and their families are not victims once again 1617 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1618 of reforms that are there to deal with dodgy whiplash would permit. We start from a low baseline before we claims and motor insurance premiums. In another even consider docking damages to prevent these claimants place, as we heard this evening, there was a very coming forwards. powerful and intelligent debate on this subject. Those who often express the view that debates in this Chamber Lord Thomas of Gresford: Does the Minister not are always of a superior nature to those of another support my argument that it is better that there should place should read Hansard carefully and look at what be no success fees at all, rather than that success fees took place in that very short hour towards the end of should be claimed against the insurers, which is what Tuesday last week. It was a very good debate. this amendment amounts to—in other words, a continuation of the current system? Does the Minister Honourable Members on all sides of the Chamber not agree that in these cases, which are easy to prove spoke with passion, knowledge and experience about once you establish the insurer, success fees are really this subject. Not least was Ms Crouch, a former irrelevant? insurance executive, who criticised both her Minister and the Association of British Insurers for their stance Lord Bach: I am grateful to the noble Lord again on these amendments. Indeed, as I understand it, she for calling me the Minister—it is a couple of years, I has spoken to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, today and think, since that was the case. I take his point though; has also put out a press release. I am delighted that a it is a serious point. I am not convinced that lawyers number of Members of Parliament on all sides who who take up these cases, if this Bill in its present form spoke in that debate are listening to our debate this becomes law, will not take success fees. In fact, I am evening. pretty certain that they will. I cannot see why they I could also mention Mr Andrew Percy who represents would not. It may be a shame, but in the reality of the Brigg and Goole, which the noble Lords will know is legal world, if they are entitled to take success fees, famous for its historic shipbuilding past, and Mr Andrew they will do so. Bingham, the MP for High Peak, an area that also has a high incidence of asbestosis. They spoke against the Lord Faulks: Does the noble Lord have any basis Minister’s proposals and, to their credit, voted in the for saying that other than simply speculating? Opposition’s Lobby. Their concern was perfectly understandable. Why on earth, with absolutely no Lord Bach: I certainly do not have the experience of savings to the state, are we reducing the amount of the noble Lord in this area of the law, but with the money that victims get from those who harm them, greatest respect I ask whether his view is not as speculative while handing that money to lawyers or insurers instead? as mine. We just do not know, but I would have Those Members on all sides who voted were not thought that the history of legal proceedings of this persuaded by the stupid assertions—if I may call them kind is that where success fees are available they will be that—of the Minister in the other place that industrial sought. Maybe not always up to 25 per cent, but they disease sufferers should be treated in the same way as will be sought. an organised gang faking whiplash injuries for payouts or someone lying about a slip or a trip on a pavement Lord Thomas of Gresford: Surely it would be for the crack. Again and again, the other place heard stories Lord Chancellor to amend the regulations that he has of horrific suffering of victims—and the fact that you to make to prevent success fees being charged in these simply cannot fake cancer of the pleural linings, circumstances. peritoneum or cardiac sheath. Lord Bach: That may be what the noble Lord, Lord The history of asbestos-induced diseases—and, indeed, Thomas of Gresford, would suggest to the Lord general industrial diseases—is not a proud one for the Chancellor that he should do, but is there any indication insurance industry. It knew for decades that asbestos that that is what will be done? Will regulations be put killed before it acted and only then at Parliament’s before Parliament that say it is forbidden to take a promptings. Insurers have fought cases—to the death— success fee in a case of this kind? If so, will not the trying to get out of paying just awards to genuine Lord Chancellor run into exactly the same sort of victims. There is a long history of insurers fighting problems that critics of this amendment raise here claims until after the death of the claimant. It is in against the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and me? Will that part thanks to their tireless lobbying that compensation not be the position? levels in England and Wales are not by any standard generous in cases of this kind. They are forensically Lord Thomas of Gresford: Not if there is an abuse, calculated to reflect pain, suffering and loss of amenity as the noble Lord suggests. If claimants’ solicitors in and costs of past and future losses. They are far less cases which are not difficult to prove start charging than victims receive in comparable jurisdictions. For success fees, which the Lord Chancellor or public Mealey’s Litgation Report example, in 2007 maintained opinion decide is simply not acceptable, then the Lord that the average jury award in the United States for Chancellor will have the power to stop it. mesothelioma was $7.5 million—the average award here is £65,000. Of course, the differences between Lord Bach: It may not be difficult to prove, and I jury and judge-calculated awards and our judicial understand what noble Lords say about that. But systems apply, but there is a huge difference. there is a history, I have to say, of insurance companies No one could argue that the damages victims of taking an extremely long time to agree to settle cases this disease receive are very great; they should certainly of this kind. For whatever reasons—and I do not want not be eaten into in the way that this Bill, if allowed, to go though them tonight in this House—it may be 1619 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1620

[LORD BACH] slow movement in addressing the issue, but that accusation that a case will take quite a considerable period of does not lie at this Government’s door. We have moved time, even if, at the end, liability is not denied. I want very quickly in our attempts to get agreement with the to stop soon and allow the Minister to respond. industry. 7.30 pm Lord Bach: As far as that is concerned, the setting Lord Higgins: Does the noble Lord agree that the up of a body in order to get a move on with this was crucial thing we have to decide this evening is whether mentioned in a White Paper from the previous we should send the amendment back to the Commons? Government two years ago. We have seen absolutely I find that I now understand the issues put forward by nothing after two years to suggest that that body will the noble Lord, Lord Alton, much better than I did at be set up soon. Indeed, every comment made by the earlier stages of our parliamentary proceedings. Given insurance industry as a whole has been opposed to any all the representations that we have received, that is organisation that would stand in, as it were, when they probably true at the other end of the building as well. cannot find who is responsible for these diseases being Therefore, there may be a strong case on those grounds caused. for their reconsidering it. The argument is otherwise very simple, which is that they did not conclude the Lord McNally: As I made clear in my opening debate on this amendment in the previous exchanges remarks, my noble friend Lord Freud hopes to be able in the House of Commons. Therefore, if we send it to make a Statement on this by the summer. The back, it will give them an opportunity to do that. House, the insurance industry and sufferers from this Indeed, if the Minister sought the leave of the House disease should understand that we mean business on at the end of the debate in the other place, he could this. We are addressing this with a real sense of urgency. actually reply to the debate, which he was prevented Whatever happens regarding this amendment, the plight from doing by his own guillotine. of sufferers from this disease deserve fairness and speed in settlement for the many reasons that have Lord Bach: I am very grateful to the noble Lord—I been put forward. think the whole House will be grateful to him—for The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said that there is shutting me up. That is the first thing that he succeeded no virtue in dogmatic consistency and he even had the in doing, but he also made the point that this is about strong support of my noble friend Lord Carlile in whether this House believes that the other place should that. Certainly, there is no virtue in dogmatic consistency, have a closer look at this. What worries me slightly is but we need to consider the integrity of the legal that, as I understand the programme Motion in the system as a whole and fairness between different claimants. other place, there may be only one hour in the programme There are two parallel debates. There are the necessary for all the matters that they have to consider; but I am Jackson reforms of legal costs, which will apply across not sure that I understand the procedures of this the board, and the need to move with speed to get a House, let alone those of the other place. system that deals with the problems of mesothelioma The noble Lord has persuaded me to sit down now. victims as quickly as possible. We can only make our I think that was his intention. I look forward to impact assessments. hearing what the Minister has to say in response to the My noble friend Lord Carlile asked whether we points that have been made. Surely the other place thought that the Jackson reforms will prevent sufferers’ should take up this matter again—it is of such huge access to justice. We do not believe that. We would not importance. have brought this forward if we had thought it. The point was made about success fees. I repeat that they Lord McNally: I think it was the line, “I want to are not compulsory. As my noble friend Lord Faulks stop soon” that provoked my noble friend Lord Higgins has pointed out, there may be some proper, healthy to get to his feet. competition among lawyers that will address the question Again, this has been a very useful debate, with two of success fees. parallel arguments. I go back to my opening remarks: It is not the responsibility of somebody suffering nobody underestimates the horror of mesothelioma from a terminal illness to watch the clock as far as and the importance of getting speedy redress for sufferers. costs are concerned. It is the responsibility of government. Parallel to that, however, are the attempts that we are The Jackson reforms take that responsibility away trying to bring forward to bring some order to the from claimants. Not just in this particular case but in costs of litigation. It simply is not true that the Jackson the broad there was no responsibility on litigants or reforms are intended just to catch dodgy whiplash their lawyers to watch costs. That was the weakness of claims. There was a general feeling that the amendments the whole system. The Jackson reforms put some to CFAs which the previous Administration introduced emphasis back on to the responsibility to watch costs—not brought in an overall inflation of costs in our legal on somebody suffering from a terminal illness but system. We all pay for that inflation. through the reforms that we are putting through across I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Wills, said, but the board in this area. For a claimant who does not the truth is that the present system which the sufferers have to pay a success fee, the 10 per cent uplift could have to use is slow and expensive. I repeat that the mean more compensation than he or she would otherwise intention of this Government is to move as speedily as have got. I make no firm claim on that. It is not a possible to get to where we can through agreement question of being callous towards the sufferers. On the with the industry, to get litigation out of the way. It is contrary, the Government are taking very speedy action true, as has been said by a number of noble Lords, that to try to get in place an agreement which I am sure we there was callous treatment of sufferers. There was all agree should have been in place many years before. 1621 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1622

Sadly, this is not a problem that will go away. That them, and the Minister said that they would not be is one of the reasons why I believe that we need a sense compulsory. However, the Bill provides for lawyers to of urgency in our approach to this. Although we are take, if they wish, up to 25 per cent in compensation. now fully aware of the dangers of asbestos, this insidious They can take that as their payment, not for the base disease can strike 20, 30 or 40 years after exposure. fee—they will get that anyway—but in addition to the Therefore, there is a need not for a complicated, base fee if they are successful in pursuing a case. expensive, lawyer-based system of compensation, but I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, for a system that will address the needs of sufferers. I said earlier that it would be better if such a system am sorry that I cannot help more in relation to making were entirely swept away, but it has not been. If we are it an exception. Horrific as the disease is, it is not an to wait for regulation, how do we know whether those exception to the way in which the justice system should regulations will be put forward by the Government or work. We should have a system in which lawyers get a whether they will be successful? I do not think that we proper return for the job that they do and in which should do this on a wing and a prayer. those deserving compensation receive proper The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, thanked me for my compensation. It is not a case of grabbing 25 per cent persistence but, 40 years ago, in 1972, the noble Lord of that compensation. Competition and even some issued a pamphlet championing people who were suffering morality might drive that out of the system. Even from mesothelioma. Thirty thousand people have died bigger than that is the prize that the Government are from the disease over the years. As the noble Lord, seeking: a system that is not lawyer-based but one that Lord McNally, has just intimated, probably the same is based on need, clearly agreed with the industry. As I sort of number will die before this is all over. have assured the House, we hope to make a Statement by the summer and we hope to have a system in place We are often accused of being preoccupied with that brings speed and fairness to the sufferers of this fringe issues, but in a week or so, we shall have disease. I ask the House to reject the amendment and Workers’ Memorial Day. Surely, this evening, it would to support the House of Commons resolution. be fitting for us to recognise the sacrifice that workers have made in the service of their companies and this country in many heavy industries. This does not affect Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, I am grateful to just those who have worked in heavy industries as even all noble Lords who have participated in this debate those who washed the clothes of people working in and in the earlier debates. The Minister has, with his those industries have contracted this awful disease. usual courtesy, dealt with the arguments that have Surely this is something on which we can raise our been put forward today. I reiterate my thanks to him voices tonight, knowing that there are Members in for the time that he has spent with me, with Mr Paul another place who wish to pursue this further in the Goggins last week and with the noble Lord, Lord House of Commons and who were denied the opportunity Freud. He has said a number of things this evening on to do so at earlier stages. Many of the issues that we which the House should reflect, one of which was have been debating this evening, which are new, should about the new scheme that it is hoped will be brought have been debated in Committee in another place in in future and which will be a lot less reliant on much earlier on. We have been reassured that there are lawyers. If we can achieve that, I think that there will no financial questions. This is not about austerity; it is be consensus in your Lordships’ House that it will be a not about fraud: it is not about ambulance chasing; very significant and purposeful step forward and it is and it is not about a compensation culture. However, it certainly one that I will wholeheartedly support. The is about elementary justice. I hope that your Lordships noble Lord, Lord McNally, has told us that that will agree with my Motion. I wish to test the opinion announcement will be made in the summer. However, of the House. it will require primary legislation, which is not before us, so there will be at least another 18 months from the 7.46 pm time of the announcement before anything is on the statute book. Division on Motion E1 In the course of this evening’s proceedings, there Contents 214; Not-Contents 205. has been dispute between different lawyers and different Members of your Lordships’ House about the practical Motion E1 agreed. effects of the law as now drafted on victims of mesothelioma. Pending the announcement in the summer Division No. 4 and the new legislation that might come, I beg your CONTENTS Lordships not to play Russian roulette with the lives of people who have a terminal illness. I beg you not to Adams of Craigielea, B. Beecham, L. be drawn into either side’s arguments about how this Adonis, L. Berkeley, L. Ahmed, L. Bhattacharyya, L. might work out and not to take chances but to preserve, Alli, L. Billingham, B. as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said the amendment Alton of Liverpool, L. [Teller] Bilston, L. would do, the status quo and keep things as they are at Andrews, B. Blackstone, B. the moment until such time as we have something Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Blood, B. better to put in its place. Armstrong of Ilminster, L. Boateng, L. Avebury, L. Borrie, L. Success fees have been mentioned a great deal during Bach, L. Bradley, L. the proceedings. The noble Lord, Lord Faulks, said Barnett, L. Bragg, L. that many lawyers would not want them, the noble Bassam of Brighton, L. Brennan, L. Lord, Lord Thomas, said that they should not take Bath and Wells, Bp. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. 1623 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1624

Brookman, L. Jones, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Warner, L. Browne of Belmont, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Snape, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Browne of Ladyton, L. Jordan, L. Soley, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Cameron of Dillington, L. Judd, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. West of Spithead, L. Cameron of Lochbroom, L. Kakkar, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Wheeler, B. Campbell-Savours, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Whitaker, B. Carter of Coles, L. King of Bow, B. Taylor of Bolton, B. Whitty, L. Chester, Bp. King of West Bromwich, L. Temple-Morris, L. Wigley, L. Clancarty, E. Kinnock, L. Thornton, B. Williamson of Horton, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Tonge, B. Wills, L. Clinton-Davis, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Touhig, L. Winston, L. Cohen of Pimlico, B. Layard, L. Triesman, L. Wood of Anfield, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Woolf, L. Cormack, L. Leitch, L. Turnberg, L. Woolmer of Leeds, L. Corston, B. Levy, L. Turner of Camden, B. Worthington, B. Cox, B. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Wall of New Barnet, B. Young of Hornsey, B. Crawley, B. Liddle, L. Walton of Detchant, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Crisp, L. Lipsey, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. NOT CONTENTS Davies of Stamford, L. Listowel, E. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, Low of Dalston, L. Addington, L. Fookes, B. B. McAvoy, L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Desai, L. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Alderdice, L. Fowler, L. Dixon, L. McFall of Alcluith, L. Allan of Hallam, L. Framlingham, L. Donaghy, B. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Freeman, L. Donoughue, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Arran, E. Freud, L. Doocey, B. L. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Garden of Frognal, B. Drake, B. McKenzie of Luton, L. Hamdon, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Dubs, L. Mallalieu, B. Ashton of Hyde, L. Gardner of Parkes, B. Elder, L. Manchester, Bp. Astor, V. Geddes, L. Elystan-Morgan, L. Martin of Springburn, L. Astor of Hever, L. German, L. Evans of Parkside, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Attlee, E. Glasgow, E. Evans of Temple Guiting, L. Massey of Darwen, B. Baker of Dorking, L. Glenarthur, L. Falconer of Thoroton, L. Maxton, L. Barker, B. Glendonbrook, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Mitchell, L. Bates, L. Glentoran, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Monks, L. Benjamin, B. Gold, L. Finlay of Llandaff, B. Moonie, L. Berridge, B. Goodlad, L. Ford, B. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Bew, L. Goschen, V. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Morgan of Ely, B. Black of Brentwood, L. Grade of Yarmouth, L. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Morgan of Huyton, B. Blencathra, L. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. Gale, B. Morris of Aberavon, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Hamilton of Epsom, L. Gavron, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. B. Hamwee, B. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Morris of Manchester, L. Bowness, L. Hanham, B. Giddens, L. Morris of Yardley, B. Bridgeman, V. Harris of Peckham, L. Glasman, L. Neill of Bladen, L. Brinton, B. Harris of Richmond, B. Golding, B. Nye, B. Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Henley, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. O’Loan, B. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Heyhoe Flint, B. Goudie, B. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. L. Hill of Oareford, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. Pannick, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Home, E. Grabiner, L. Patel, L. Burnett, L. Hooper, B. Grantchester, L. Patel of Blackburn, L. Buscombe, B. Howard of Lympne, L. Grenfell, L. Patel of Bradford, L. Byford, B. Howard of Rising, L. Grey-Thompson, B. Pendry, L. Caithness, E. Howe, E. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Pitkeathley, B. Campbell of Alloway, L. Howell of Guildford, L. Grocott, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Cathcart, E. Hunt of Wirral, L. Hanworth, V. Prosser, B. Cavendish of Furness, L. Hussain, L. Harris of Haringey, L. Puttnam, L. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Hussein-Ece, B. Hart of Chilton, L. Quin, B. Chidgey, L. Inglewood, L. Haskel, L. Radice, L. Colwyn, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Haworth, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Cope of Berkeley, L. Jenkin of Roding, L. Hayman, B. Ramsbotham, L. Craigavon, V. Jolly, B. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Rea, L. Crickhowell, L. King of Bridgwater, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Reid of Cardowan, L. Cumberlege, B. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Henig, B. Rendell of Babergh, B. De Mauley, L. Kramer, B. Hereford, Bp. Richardson of Calow, B. Deben, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Higgins, L. Rogan, L. Dholakia, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Rooker, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Lawson of Blaby, L. Hollins, B. Rosser, L. Dobbs, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Dykes, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Howarth of Newport, L. Rowlands, L. Eaton, B. Lexden, L. Howells of St Davids, B. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Eccles, V. Lindsay, E. Howie of Troon, L. Sawyer, L. Eden of Winton, L. Lingfield, L. Hoyle, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. Elton, L. Loomba, L. Hughes of Stretford, B. Selborne, E. Falkner of Margravine, B. Luke, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Sewel, L. Faulks, L. Lyell, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Sheldon, L. Fearn, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Hylton, L. Sherlock, B. Fink, L. Macdonald of River Glaven, Janner of Braunstone, L. Simon, V. Flight, L. L. 1625 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1626

MacGregor of Pulham Scott of Needham Market, B. the courtroom. I take the point that there are all types Market, L. Seccombe, B. of industrial disease claims with special factors. Where McNally, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. these exist, we can take specific actions, as I outlined Maddock, B. Selsdon, L. earlier when speaking about mesothelioma, but industrial Magan of Castletown, L. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Mancroft, L. Sharkey, L. disease is potentially a very wide category, and I am Mar and Kellie, E. Sharp of Guildford, B. not persuaded that it would be fair to treat the class of Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Sharples, B. industrial disease claims differently from other types L. Sheikh, L. of personal injury claim. This may be of little comfort Marland, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. Marlesford, L. to individual victims of industrial disease, but we need Shipley, L. Mawhinney, L. to consider the integrity of the legal system as a whole Mayhew of Twysden, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] and fairness between different claimants. Smith of Clifton, L. Meacher, B. For all the sympathy that we have for sufferers of Methuen, L. Spicer, L. Montrose, D. Stedman-Scott, B. any industrial disease and the desire of all of us to Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. make the legal process easier, particularly for those Morris of Bolton, B. Stewartby, L. facing terminal illness, I cannot see that a system Naseby, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. based on exceptions would be fair to other claimants. I Neville-Jones, B. Storey, L. fear that we would be failing in the wider duty of Newby, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. Noakes, B. Strasburger, L. fairness in legal proceedings, which, as I mentioned in Northbrook, L. Strathclyde, L. the earlier debate, is the key element behind the Jackson Northover, B. Sutherland of Houndwood, L. reforms. I urge the noble Lord not to insist on his Norton of Louth, L. Taylor of Goss Moor, L. amendment. I beg to move. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. O’Cathain, B. Teverson, L. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Thomas of Gresford, L. Motion F1 (as an amendment to Motion F) Palmer, L. Tope, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Tordoff, L. Moved by Lord Wigley Parminter, B. Trefgarne, L. Patten, L. Trimble, L. Leave out from “House” to end and insert “do Perry of Southwark, B. True, L. insist on its Amendment 32”. Phillips of Sudbury, L. Tugendhat, L. Popat, L. Tyler, L. Randerson, B. Tyler of Enfield, B. Lord Wigley: My Lords, the House of Commons Rawlings, B. Ullswater, V. Razzall, L. Verma, B. has rejected this amendment on the spurious grounds Reay, L. Wakeham, L. that it is inappropriate. That is a matter of opinion Redesdale, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. and judgment, no more and no less. Amendment 32 Ribeiro, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. would exempt industrial disease claims from these Risby, L. Walmsley, B. changes. I supported the amendment that has just Roberts of Conwy, L. Warsi, B. been passed by the House that relates specifically to Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Wasserman, L. Rotherwick, L. Wheatcroft, B. exempting cases of respiratory disease from these changes. Ryder of Wensum, L. Wilcox, B. Amendment 32 goes wider to cover all diseases, conditions Sanderson of Bowden, L. Willis of Knaresborough, L. and illnesses that arise from a breach of duty owed by Sassoon, L. Younger of Leckie, V. an employer to an employee, some of which may be much more complex than cases of mesothelioma, as 8pm we heard a moment ago. In the debate in the House of Commons, the argument was put that there should have been no specific amendment for one condition, Motion F such as mesothelioma, but a general approach. By Moved by Lord McNally passing this amendment, we give the House of Commons That this House do not insist on its Amendment 32 an opportunity to consider having that general approach. to which the Commons have disagreed for their I wish to draw to your Lordships’ attention to the Reason 32A. meagre hour allowed in the Commons for debating Amendments 31 and 32. The Minister, Mr Djanogly, 32A Because it is not appropriate to make an exception concentrated overwhelmingly, almost exclusively in from clauses 43, 45 and 46 for proceedings which include fact, on Amendment 31. He said: a claim for damages for a disease, condition or illness “the amendments are unnecessary. The legal climate in which resulting from a breach of duty owed by an employer to mesothelioma cases can be brought has wholly changed in recent an employee. years”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/4/12; col. 264.] The whole tenor of the debate was in the context of Lord McNally: My Lords, Motion F contains mesothelioma, which we dealt with in our debate on Amendment 32, which seeks an exemption from the previous amendment. Of the 20 MPs who spoke, Clauses 43, 45 and 46 for industrial disease claims. 15 spoke specifically about mesothelioma and The Government cannot accept this very broad exemption 15 supported Amendment 32 when it came to a vote. to the provisions in Part 2, and the House of Commons The case against Amendment 32 was just not made in has agreed with our position. the Commons. We are supposed to respond to what The suggested exemption is very wide and would the Commons has told us. It had not debated it at cover all manner of conditions, including relatively earlier stages, and it did not debate Amendment 32 in minor problems that may be better resolved outside the hour that it had on 17 April. 1627 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1628

[LORD WIGLEY] As I said at the beginning of my remarks, we will At earlier stages during the passage of the Bill, the not undermine what most people saw in the system case has been made on the basis of road traffic claims that is now in place: a very inflationary form of and the savings that could be made in that context. financing litigation where neither the claimant nor the Industrial disease cases are wholly different from road lawyer has any need to concern themselves about cost. traffic accident claims; and, as many organisations, That is why Jackson was set up and why he came up including the Association of Personal Injury Lawyers, with the solution that he has. As in previous cases, the have advised me, in road traffic accident claims liability idea that the 25 per cent is compulsory is not necessary. is far simpler to prove than in industrial disease cases. I should like to see much more competition and willingness That is why we need to have support for those cases, to take these cases. Noble Lords have seen that it is whatever the condition arising from industrial disease, easy to take very hard cases and then to say, “Well, we not just mesothelioma. There is a range of other can’t go along with this”. If you do that, you dismantle diseases. In the earlier debate, the Minister referred to the Jackson reforms. I believe that the debates in both further thought being given to mesothelioma by the Houses over the full period of this Bill have been Government and the DWP later this year. Presumably, mainly supportive of the central architecture of the on the basis of the argument that he put a moment Jackson reforms. I hope that when they vote on this ago, that further thought will also be given to the more amendment, noble Lords will see its flaws and will complex cases that arise from other backgrounds in support what the Commons has proposed. the industrial context. It is important to have the Minister’s response on the record on that. Lord Wigley: My Lords, I have listened carefully to We have been through these arguments many times, what the Minister has said in this short debate, but the and I am not going to take up the time of the House in fact remains that if one considers the debates that reiterating them. I beg to move. took place at Second Reading, in Committee and on Report in the House of Commons, these issues have not been handled in depth and in detail. We have not Lord Bach: My Lords, I can be very brief on behalf seen the figures on how financial savings will arise in of the Official Opposition. The Motion that was passed detail from the changes that are being made. If there last time in this House was in my name, and it follows are complexities in law with regard to many of the that we support the Motion in the name of the noble cases for compensation for injury or disease in a place Lord, Lord Wigley, today. He has summed up the case of work, surely without financial support people will extremely well, and in our view this amendment should not be able to get the compensation to which they are be supported. It is quite wrong that any part of the entitled. If they are entitled to compensation, it is damages awarded in industrial diseases should be downright unacceptable that up to 25 per cent can be taken from the successful claimant. In principle, it is skimmed off. wrong. Therefore we support the amendment. Time after time the Minister has said that there is no compulsion to take up to 25 per cent. There may Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I can be very not be compulsion but it is available, and the Government brief. There is a belief on this side that Amendment 32 have chosen to make it available. To my mind, and I would drive a coach and horses through the Jackson believe to the minds of many noble Lords, that is amendments, and we are broadly in support of the unacceptable. The House of Commons needs to get its need to amend and reform conditional fee agreements act in order and to apply itself in detail to these and the like. I also draw the House’s attention to the questions in a way that did not happen on 17 April fact that the wording of this amendment is extraordinarily when about one-third, at most, of an hour was allotted wide. It will not apply just to cases of damages for to the content of this amendment. For those reasons, I industrial disease, as the heading would indicate; it wish to test the will of the House. will relate to any proceedings that include a claim for damages for a disease, condition or illness. That could 8.11 pm be a minority part of the claim, and the rest, piggybacking on it, would also be outside the broad changes to these Division on Motion F1. conditional fee agreements that have, in my view and in the view of the Government, had extremely Contents 174; Not-Contents 220. unpropitious consequences for litigation generally, some of which we heard in discussion on the previous Motion F1 disagreed. amendment. I am afraid that I oppose this amendment. Division No. 5

Lord McNally: My Lords, I am grateful for my CONTENTS noble friend’s support. We should move quickly to a Adams of Craigielea, B. Bilston, L. decision on the matter. This is a very wide amendment. Adonis, L. Blackstone, B. It ducks the issue that the Government have made Alli, L. Blood, B. central to this Bill and which I made in our debate on Alton of Liverpool, L. Boateng, L. mesothelioma. Singling out a sector for special treatment Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Borrie, L. is unfair across the board. We are looking in that case Bach, L. Bradley, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. Brennan, L. for non-legal solutions to the problems of the victims. Bath and Wells, Bp. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. The Government have taken action on a number of Beecham, L. Brookman, L. areas of specific industrial diseases and will continue Berkeley, L. Browne of Belmont, L. to do so. Bhattacharyya, L. Browne of Ladyton, L. 1629 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1630

Cameron of Lochbroom, L. Low of Dalston, L. NOT CONTENTS Campbell-Savours, L. McAvoy, L. Addington, L. Gardner of Parkes, B. Carter of Coles, L. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Geddes, L. Clancarty, E. McFall of Alcluith, L. Alderdice, L. German, L. Clark of Windermere, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Allan of Hallam, L. Glasgow, E. Clinton-Davis, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Glenarthur, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Mallalieu, B. Armstrong of Ilminster, L. Glendonbrook, L. Corston, B. Martin of Springburn, L. Arran, E. Gold, L. Crawley, B. Masham of Ilton, B. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Goodlad, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Massey of Darwen, B. Hamdon, L. Goschen, V. Davies of Stamford, L. Maxton, L. Ashton of Hyde, L. Grade of Yarmouth, L. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, Mitchell, L. B. Astor, V. Hamwee, B. Monks, L. Astor of Hever, L. Hanham, B. Desai, L. Moonie, L. Dixon, L. Attlee, E. Harris of Peckham, L. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Avebury, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Donaghy, B. Morgan of Ely, B. Donoughue, L. Barker, B. Henley, L. Morgan of Huyton, B. Drake, B. Bates, L. Heyhoe Flint, B. Morris of Aberavon, L. Dubs, L. Benjamin, B. Higgins, L. Elder, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Berridge, B. Hill of Oareford, L. Elystan-Morgan, L. Morris of Yardley, B. Bew, L. Home, E. Evans of Parkside, L. Nye, B. Bilimoria, L. Hooper, B. Falconer of Thoroton, L. O’Loan, B. Black of Brentwood, L. Howard of Lympne, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Blencathra, L. Howard of Rising, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Patel of Bradford, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Howe of Aberavon, L. Finlay of Llandaff, B. Pendry, L. B. Howell of Guildford, L. Ford, B. Pitkeathley, B. Bowness, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Foster of Bishop Auckland, Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Bridgeman, V. Hussain, L. L. Prescott, L. Brinton, B. Hussein-Ece, B. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Prosser, B. Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Inglewood, L. Gale, B. Puttnam, L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Jenkin of Kennington, B. Gavron, L. Quin, B. L. Jenkin of Roding, L. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Radice, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Jolly, B. Glasman, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Browning, B. Kakkar, L. Golding, B. Ramsbotham, L. Burnett, L. King of Bridgwater, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Rea, L. Byford, B. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Goudie, B. Reid of Cardowan, L. Caithness, E. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. Rendell of Babergh, B. Campbell of Alloway, L. Lang of Monkton, L. Grabiner, L. Rogan, L. Carlile of Berriew, L. Lawson of Blaby, L. Grantchester, L. Rooker, L. Cathcart, E. Lee of Trafford, L. Grenfell, L. Rosser, L. Cavendish of Furness, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Grey-Thompson, B. Rowlands, L. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Lexden, L. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Chidgey, L. Lingfield, L. Grocott, L. Sawyer, L. Clement-Jones, L. Loomba, L. Hanworth, V. Scotland of Asthal, B. Colwyn, L. Lothian, M. Harris of Haringey, L. Sewel, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. Luke, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Sherlock, B. Cormack, L. Lyell, L. Haskel, L. Simon, V. Cotter, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Haworth, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Craigavon, V. Macdonald of River Glaven, Hayman, B. Snape, L. Crickhowell, L. L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Soley, L. Cumberlege, B. MacGregor of Pulham Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. De Mauley, L. Market, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Deben, L. McNally, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Symons of Vernham Dean, Dholakia, L. Maddock, B. Howarth of Newport, L. B. Dixon-Smith, L. Magan of Castletown, L. Howells of St Davids, B. Taylor of Bolton, B. Dobbs, L. Mancroft, L. Hoyle, L. Thornton, B. Doocey, B. Mar and Kellie, E. Hughes of Stretford, B. Tonge, B. Dykes, L. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Hughes of Woodside, L. Touhig, L. Eaton, B. L. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Triesman, L. Eccles, V. Marland, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Eden of Winton, L. Marlesford, L. Jones, L. Turnberg, L. Elton, L. Mawhinney, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Turner of Camden, B. Empey, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Jordan, L. Wall of New Barnet, B. Falkner of Margravine, Methuen, L. Judd, L. Walpole, L. B. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Kennedy of Southwark, L. Warner, L. Faulks, L. B. King of Bow, B. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Fearn, L. Montrose, D. King of West Bromwich, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Fink, L. Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Kinnock, L. Wheeler, B. Flight, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Whitaker, B. Fookes, B. Naseby, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Whitty, L. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Neville-Jones, B. Layard, L. Wigley, L. [Teller] Fowler, L. Newby, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Wills, L. Framlingham, L. Noakes, B. Leitch, L. Winston, L. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Northbrook, L. Levy, L. Wood of Anfield, L. Freeman, L. Northover, B. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Worthington, B. Freud, L. Norton of Louth, L. Liddle, L. Young of Hornsey, B. Garden of Frognal, B. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. Young of Norwood Green, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. O’Cathain, B. 1631 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1632

Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Skelmersdale, L. Exclusions Palmer, L. Smith of Clifton, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, Spicer, L. (4) Sub-paragraph (1) is subject to— L. Stedman-Scott, B. Pannick, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. (a) the exclusions in Part 2 of this Schedule, with the Parminter, B. Stephen, L. Patel, L. Stewartby, L. exception of paragraphs 1 and 15 of that Part, and Patten, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Perry of Southwark, B. Storey, L. (b) the exclusion in Part 3 of this Schedule. Phillips of Sudbury, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. Popat, L. Strasburger, L. Definitions Randerson, B. Strathclyde, L. Rawlings, B. Sutherland of Houndwood, L. (5) In this paragraph “social security enactment” means— Razzall, L. Taylor of Goss Moor, L. Reay, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. (a) the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Redesdale, L. Teverson, L. Act 1992, Rennard, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Ribeiro, L. Tope, L. (b) the Jobseekers Act 1995, Risby, L. Tordoff, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Trefgarne, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Trimble, L. (c) the State Pension Credit Act 2002, Rotherwick, L. True, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Tugendhat, L. (d) the Tax Credits Act 2002, Sanderson of Bowden, L. Tyler, L. Sassoon, L. Tyler of Enfield, B. (e) the Welfare Reform Act 2007, Scott of Needham Market, Verma, B. B. Wakeham, L. (f) the Welfare Reform Act 2012, or Seccombe, B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Selborne, E. Wallace of Tankerness, L. (g) any other enactment relating to social security.” Selkirk of Douglas, L. Walmsley, B. Selsdon, L. Warsi, B. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Wasserman, L. 240B Page 137, line 30, at end insert— Sharkey, L. Wheatcroft, B. Sharp of Guildford, B. Wilcox, B. “(a) a social security enactment, Sharples, B. Williams of Crosby, B. Sheikh, L. Williamson of Horton, L. (b) the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979, or Shephard of Northwold, B. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Shipley, L. Woolf, L. (c) Part 4 of the Child Maintenance and Other Payments Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Younger of Leckie, V. Act 2008.

8.25 pm (2) In this paragraph “social security enactment” means—” Lord McNally: My Lords, the amendments in Motion G Motion G would bring the majority of welfare Moved by Lord McNally benefit matters back into scope. Before I get into the detail of this Motion, I want to remind the House That this House do not insist on its Amendment 168 that these amendments have been considered by the to which the Commons have disagreed for their House of Commons. That House has disagreed with Reason 168A, do not insist on its Amendments 169 Amendment 168, ascribing financial privilege as the and 240 and do agree with the Commons in their reason for doing so, and in place of Amendments 169 Amendments 240A and 240B. and 240 has accepted the Government’s amendments in lieu. Despite this, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, has 168A Because it would alter the financial arrangements tabled an amendment to Amendment 168 that would made by the Commons, and the Commons do not offer bring into scope advice and assistance for all welfare any further Reason, trusting that this reason may be benefit appeals in the First-tier Tribunal. It is my deemed sufficient. opinion that this amendment will elicit the same response from the House of Commons. 240A Page 119, line 2, at end insert— As in our earlier debate, the fact that the amendment infringes privilege is the only reason that is given. I do “Appeals relating to welfare benefits not object to the amendment; as the Clerk of the House of Commons recently put it after a privilege 6A (3) Civil legal services provided in relation to an reason, “That does not exclude a second try by the appeal on a point of law to the Upper Tribunal, the Lords”. However, as was said by the Joint Committee Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court relating to a on Conventions, of which I was a member: benefit, allowance, payment, credit or pension under— “If the Commons have disagreed to Lords Amendments on grounds of financial privilege, it is contrary to convention for the (a) a social security enactment, Lords to send back Amendments in lieu which clearly invite the same response”. (b) the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979, or I put it to the House that the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, will invite the same (c) Part 4 of the Child Maintenance and Other Payments response—in fact more enthusiastically, in that they Act 2008. are wider. 1633 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1634

As I have said many times, the Government consider We believe that the government amendments in lieu that, in most cases, appellants can and do present their address the specific concerns in this House and seek to welfare benefit appeals in the First-tier Tribunal in prioritise funding on cases where legal advice and plain language and without legal assistance. The assistance is most needed. I beg to move. tribunals system has been designed precisely so that they can do this. Indeed, a report by the president of 8.30 pm the Social Entitlement Chamber of the First-tier Tribunal has pointed out that Department for Work Motion G1 (as an amendment to Motion G) and Pensions decisions are most commonly overturned because the tribunal elicits additional factual Moved by Lord Bach information from the appellant, usually in the form of After “168A”insert “but do propose Amendment 168B oral evidence provided by the appellant. This suggests as an amendment in lieu” that legal arguments are not the most common reason for a welfare benefit decision being overturned in the 168B Page 115, line 5, at end insert— tribunal. Furthermore, in his 2008-09 report, the president stated: “Social welfare law (No. 2) “The availability of this additional information suggests that (1) Civil legal services for an appeal to a first-tier there should be more direct engagement with the appellant”. tribunal, in respect of a social welfare decision relating We have committed to ensuring that not-for-profit to a benefit, allowance, payment, credit or pension advice remains widely available and we have supported under— this view, as I reported earlier, with further funding, making available £16.8 million for advice service funding, (a) the Social Security Contributions and Benefits which is already helping 300 front-line advice organisations. Act 1992; In addition, £20 million of funding will be made available in each of the financial years 2013-14 and (b) the Jobseekers Act 1995; 2014-15. (c) the State Pension Credit Act 2002; Perhaps I could draw the attention of the House to the government amendments, which, as I have said, I (d) the Tax Credits Act 2002; think are a genuine response by the Government to (e) the Welfare Reform Act 2007; points that were made, not least from my own Benches. We have listened very carefully to the arguments (f) the Welfare Reform Act 2012; raised here and in the House of Commons about retaining legal advice and some representation for (g) the Vaccine Damage Payments Act 1979; onward appeals on a point of law in relation to a welfare benefit matter. At this point, I pay particular (h) Part 4 of the Child Maintenance and Other Payments tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who has Act 2008; and engaged in a constructive discussion on this topic with my noble friend Lord Freud. Her contribution has (i) any other enactment relating to social security. undoubtedly helped us to produce a sensible and workable solution. (2) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (1), civil legal services includes independent advice and assistance.” We accept that legal aid may be justified in these cases and we offered government amendments in lieu Lord Bach: My Lords, this House dislikes the Bill. I in the House of Commons. These government am referring not only to the 11 defeats and two draws amendments will make legal advice and assistance that the Government sustained on Report or the defeats available for welfare benefit appeals on a point of law today but to a wider feeling that Part 1 in particular is in the Upper Tribunal, including applications to the mean-minded, picks on the poor, disabled and vulnerable Upper Tribunal for permission to appeal. In addition, and is not worthy of this country’s traditions and its the amendments would bring into scope advice, assistance legal system. This view is held virtually throughout the and representation for welfare benefit appeals in the House. There were more than 50 speakers on Second Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court, including Reading, but it is difficult to recall anyone who spoke applications to these courts for permission to appeal. up for Part 1. It is worth noting that the right to appeal to the Upper I believe that many Conservatives are offended by Tribunal in relation to a welfare benefit matter is a the way in which the Government have picked on the right to appeal on a point of law arising from a poor and the vulnerable. It is against their traditions decision made by the First-tier Tribunal. and they are unconvinced that there are any savings to The House of Commons also recognises that there be made by decimating social welfare law, particularly may be cases—although the Government think that as the Government have consistently refused to give there will be very few—where appeals relating to welfare figures, in spite of committees asking them to do so. benefits in the First-tier Tribunal will be on points of I also believe that the Liberal Democrat Benches law. The Government have listened to arguments on are offended by the taking out of scope debt, employment, this and have undertaken to look into this issue and immigration and, if the Government have their way, investigate whether we can devise a workable system welfare benefit cases. If they had been in opposition whereby advice and assistance can be made available now, I venture to suggest that they would have opposed for certain welfare benefit cases in the First-tier Tribunal. Part 1 of the Bill with all their might, yet somehow, 1635 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1636

[LORD BACH] Lord Bach: If that was the concession that was with some brave exceptions, which I will not name, sought, it was very poor fare indeed. The reasons why they have been cajoled into voting for exactly the the deal is so unsatisfactory are numerous. Let me be things with which they disagree most. The Minister is brief about them. First, it is utterly impractical. What a liberal and humane man and I occasionally feel happens in real life is that, following an adverse review sorry for him, too. He has been obliged to put forward, by the DWP, a claimant will decide whether to appeal particularly in relation to Part 1, nonsense after nonsense to the lower tribunal. At present the claimant will be in support of his arguments. able to see a specialist adviser who will tell him whether Of course we welcome the Government’s amendment there is a case or not. This prevents hopeless cases concerning upper court appeals. It was always ridiculous from clogging up the First-tier Tribunal but ensures that claimants at an Upper-tier Tribunal—the Court that good cases go ahead to the First-tier Tribunal, of Appeal or the Supreme Court—should not which is a tribunal of fact and law. automatically get legal aid to argue their case, which, None of this will happen under the proposed as the Minister has just reminded us, can be only on a arrangement. How can a judge decide whether a case point of law. The Government knew all along that it has a real point of law until it comes before him or was ridiculous and the Minister, to his great credit, her? Without sensible legal advice, it may never come never tried to argue seriously against it. We were before the First-tier Tribunal. This will mean that in always going to get this concession at some stage. I do practice many good cases, when mistakes have been not want to be difficult about the concession; we are made, are never taken up and may well mean that grateful for it and for any part that the Minister may rubbish, hopeless cases clog up our already overburdened have had in getting it. tribunals. However, the position is still deeply unsatisfactory with regard to First-tier Tribunal appeals. Last Tuesday, Secondly, this distinction between pure law and in the other place, an extraordinarily unconvincing pure fact is a chimera. It is a nonsense at this stage. The pantomime took place between the right honourable First-tier Tribunal is not just a tribunal of law in and learned gentleman the Lord Chancellor and the the way that the second-tier tribunal is. It deals with honourable Member Mr Tom Brake. I should explain the whole position and makes decisions on fact and to any noble Lords who do not know who Tom Brake law as they apply. Indeed, no one made that clearer than is that he is the Commons equivalent of the noble the Conservative Member of Parliament Mr Robert Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. That is meant as a Buckland, who said in an intervention: compliment to him. “I am listening to my right hon. and learned Friend’s arguments The Lord Chancellor hinted tantalisingly—using with great care, but I am still puzzled about the unavoidable problem of the ability to work out what is a legal issue as opposed expressions such as “if we can solve the problems”, “if to a merely factual one. Fact management and legal issues often we can find” and so on—that an arrangement might come hand in hand, and they are often best handled by a lawyer. I be reached whereby a lower-tier judge could certify a worry that we are making an artificial distinction”.—[Official point of law and give legal aid to a claimant. I do not Report, Commons, 17/04/12; col. 227.] think it unfair to describe that arrangement as vague, Later, in his speech, he said: unthought-out, superficial, strictly back-of-an-envelope stuff and, as we know, arranged very much at the last “A person does not come through the door of the citizens minute. Amazingly, however, it resulted in the said advice bureau, the law centre or the local practitioner saying, ‘I am a problem of fact’ or, ‘I am a problem of law.’ They come as honourable Mr Brake immediately withdrawing an individuals with a particular issue that needs untangling by amendment that he and others had moved—not unlike somebody with expertise. That somebody will, I am afraid to say, my amendment today, as it happens. I am afraid that often be a lawyer. That is a fact and we should not shy away from no one was fooled by this last-minute arranged minuet it. Often a lawyer can quickly, in the provision of advice—I am of an agreement. In a boxing match, it was a clear not talking about representation in the tribunal at this stage—” fixed fight, with Mr Brake going down to a knockout I should say that nor are we, in the course of this by arrangement in the second round. amendment— “sort out the problem effectively”.—[Official Report, 17/4/12; Lord Thomas of Gresford: That is absolute rubbish. col. 248.] I say now—I would say it in a speech later—that it is not worthy of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, to attack He could not have put the case better for the amendment Tom Brake in that way when he is not here to answer and against the very vague arrangement that was for himself. I am proud to be an associate of Tom mentioned in the other place last Tuesday. Brake, who leads on legal matters in the House of Let us look at a real-life impact of the measure that Commons from the Back Benches, as I do here. He the Government propose. According to official figures very bravely put forward that amendment and achieved last year, 173,880 people appealed a benefits decision a great success in getting the concession that he did, in the First-tier Tribunals. Of those, 161,400 related to which I will develop at a later stage. disability benefits—that is, 80 per cent—including incapacity benefit, employment support allowance, Lord Bach: If it was so brave, why did he not put his and DLA or industrial injuries disablement benefit. amendment to the vote? That would be the question About 60 per cent of all appellants who received that I would ask. advice from a front-line agency won their case but only 39 per cent of those who did not receive advice Lord Thomas of Gresford: We got the concession won their case. That is clear evidence of what can be that we were seeking. called the advice premium. 1637 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1638

In short, meritorious claimants are more likely to the Liberal Democrats over the years, and by us, is to win their case if they have been advised in advance. be completely overthrown in order, in fact, not to save Overall, 45 per cent of those before the tribunals won any money at all. their case. I hope that that puts paid to any notion that Our amendment would allow early advice to see the majority of appeals lack merit or involve chancers whether a case was one that was suitable for First-tier having a go. Clearly there is a substantial need for a Tribunal or not. That is all that we are asking the mechanism to correct errors. We all know that the House to agree to tonight. This is basically the same department makes errors all the time—and that will amendment that the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, happen as long as life goes on. moved on Report, but because there is financial privilege I regret that I must note that 45 per cent represents we have lessened it. It is not for the review period—the a marked increase over the previous year, in which review to the DWP. It comes into play only when there 38 per cent won their cases, itself the culmination of is consideration of whether to go to the First-tier years of improvement. So last year represents a sudden Tribunal. I beg to move. and significant degradation in the quality of decision- making in state agencies, which is quite the opposite to 8.45 pm the claims made by the Government that the DWP is working to make the system more effective. The worst Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I am very degradation in decision-making was for employment pleased to welcome the government amendment in support allowance, on which overall half the appellants lieu, which follows very closely the amendments that won their case. To put that in numbers terms, more the Liberal Democrats put down, both in Committee than 40,000 disabled people a year have their employment and on Report, for ensuring that there is proper legal support allowance reinstated after a First-tier Tribunal support for appeals on a point of law to the Upper ruling that overturns erroneous decisions from the Tribunal, the Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court. DWP.Again, there are marked disparities in the percentage The Government are to be congratulated on taking of appellants who succeed, based on whether they that step. receive advice or not, with some 70 per cent of advised The lacuna in the amendment that I moved in ESA appellants winning and only 43 per cent of Committee and on Report was that legal points might unadvised appellants winning. We are talking about arise at First-tier Tribunal hearings. It was to that end advice, not representation. The conclusion is that advice that my colleague Mr Tom Brake put down an amendment really matters. in order to clarify that, or to try to obtain a concession We argue—and I hope that the House is with from the Government in relation to that, when the us—that the present system works all right. It is true matter came before the Commons. A number of points that tribunals are already overburdened, but we are have been made about it. About 80 per cent of cases, now in an age of austerity and we have coming up the maybe more, before the First-tier Tribunal are decided road radical welfare benefit reform about to commence. on the facts: whether a person has sustained a particular There will be mistake after mistake made by the injury, whether that injury disables him from doing a authorities, so how can this be the right time to take particular job or whatever. It covers a wide range of away or remove our fellow citizens’ rights to have possibilities, but it is usually a factual issue. wrong decisions corrected—decisions that for some However, from time to time a point of law arises. actually make the difference between a decent life and Now, there is no difficulty whatever in identifying one wrecked by poverty and insecurity? what a point of law is. The best illustration that I can If our amendment were passed, it would cost the make is the famous case of Donoghue and Stevenson—the Government at most £15 million. All commentators snail in the ginger beer bottle. For the purposes of agree that the Government’s proposals will cost the coming to a conclusion on the law of negligence and state much more in the end because, if people do not how it should develop, the House of Lords, in considering get that expert early advice, their lives go wrong. The that case from Scotland in the 1930s, assumed that the problems that they have can be dealt with, and have claimant’s facts were true; namely, that there was a been dealt with for years, by not-for-profit organisations snail in the ginger beer bottle that the claimant drank. such as law centres and CABs, in which advice on Accordingly, all the argument was based upon that social welfare law and the law for everyday life is given assumed fact. As a result, the law was clarified and for free under legal aid. If that advice is no longer developed, and is the foundation of the law of negligence available, those problems get worse and multiply and to this day. When the case was remitted to the Scottish in the end the state has to pay out much more in court to determine the facts, it was discovered that it picking up the pieces. was impossible to prove that there was a snail in the We do not believe that, for £15 million, which is ginger beer bottle at all. Consequently the claim was, I what the Government claim would be saved by changing think, settled, or it may have failed, but that is the this system—that is, by not allowing advice at the distinction. A point of law is when you have a difficulty early stage—that can possibly be sensible. This in coming to a conclusion, even if the claimant’s facts Government have, for example, found £250 million in are true. order that we might all have weekly bin collections, The First-tier Tribunal will frequently be faced with but they cannot afford £15 million per year in order mixed facts and law. That is to say, it will have to that people can get advice. A system that was set up by determine what the facts are and, in that light, consider a Conservative Government, under the noble and whether there is any legal problem in the statutory learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, and supported provisions—any point of law—which has to be decided by previous Conservative Governments, as well as by as well before the claimant gets his compensation, 1639 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1640

[LORD THOMAS OF GRESFORD] more limited amendment moved so fully by the noble allowance or benefit, or whatever it may happen to be. Lord, Lord Bach, this evening. I hope that the House So there is no problem. Every day, in every court will ask the Commons to think further on this matter. and tribunal, points of law are being disclosed, discovered, I will say something about the substance in a minute, analysed and dealt with. Indeed, you cannot appeal but I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has from the First-tier Tribunal to the Upper Tribunal emphasised the question of financial privilege because unless there is a point of law that the First-tier I want to say another word about that, if the House Tribunal identifies. Similarly, in going from the Upper can bear it. Tribunal to the Court of Appeal or the Supreme I come at this from a slightly different angle. There Court, there has to be a point of law, so there is no has been a change in the composition of the House of problem—as there appeared to be among certain minds Lords in the past 10 years. I am not referring to the in the other place—as to what a point of law is. reduction in the number of hereditaries but to one The problem that one has to face is: can an that has been rather less remarked; namely, the unrepresented applicant determine himself whether appointment of so-called people’s Peers by the there is a point of law? There are two answers to that. Appointments Commission. I am not greatly enamoured First, any tribunal with a legally qualified chairman of the term “people’s Peers” but, for once, it may will perceive that there is a point of law involved in perhaps point to a reality that is worth observing—the coming to a conclusion on the case, so it is in the links that those Peers, not being just the great and hands of the chairman of the tribunal to determine the good and the beneficiaries of political patronage, whether a point of law arises. If it is unexpected, he have with the diversity of civil society, which is can stop the case there, adjourn it and give legal aid something that the Appointments Commission has for the case to be argued properly by a lawyer who is been keen to foster. They have been appointed for the familiar with the statutory provisions. There is then distinctive contribution that they make and their ability equality on both sides. However, there is another to devote sufficient time to the work of the House. approach. In the criminal context, if I am prosecuting That last is an expressed criterion of appointment. I and the defendant is representing himself when appearing would not want to make too much of this, and I in court, and if I as the prosecutor—the qualified certainly do not wish to disparage other Peers, but the lawyer—realise that a point of law arises which the so-called people’s Peers have been specifically appointed unrepresented defendant has not realised, it is my on merit for the time, perspective and expertise that professional duty to tell that defendant in a criminal they can bring to the work of the House, including case, “Look, there is a point of law in your case, which that of scrutinising legislation, and for their ability to you should mention to the judge. Let’s have a discussion reach and give a voice to parts of society that are not about it”. It is my job to bring it out. always reached. I suggest to the Government that when it comes to That is part of what makes the Lords more accessible tribunals, anybody representing the state—the in some ways than the Commons. It is this House and Government or a government department—in a tribunal not the other place that has been widely seen as should be under a duty, which regulation should point speaking for the vulnerable and dispossessed in our out, to inform an unrepresented applicant if that state consideration of the Welfare Reform Bill and this representative appreciates that a point of law arises. Bill. The House has done itself a deal of good. This This is so that before they even get before the tribunal, may not be election but it adds a measure of the state representative will have told the litigant or legitimacy, or at least detracts somewhat from the air applicant in person, “Look, my friend, you have a of illegitimacy, which is said to attend this House. We point of law in this case, which you must mention to all know that the Commons has primacy in matters of the tribunal judge. If you don’t do it, I will”. That is supply, but I am sure that I speak for my colleagues the tradition of the legal system, and it must apply when I say that this blanket resort to the claim of even when the state is represented not by lawyers but financial privilege as a ground for the summary negation by representatives of the department in question. I of weeks of the very work we were appointed to this urge upon my noble friend that he takes that on board House to perform sits very ill indeed with the job and ensures that there is such a duty, as there is description on which we were appointed to this place. elsewhere, for lawyers to point out to the unrepresented It seems to me that it is the Commons’ heavy-handed applicant that there is a point that he should take. use of the claim of financial privilege and not the I am very pleased that points of law will be properly existence of the House of Lords that deserves to be dealt with under the government amendment. I hope likened to what is going on in Syria or an affront to that the moves that the Lord Chancellor makes to democracy. ensure that, where a point of law arises in a First-tier The noble Lord, Lord Martin, whom we all Tribunal, a case is either by agreement put forward for greatly respect, and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, legal aid or the tribunal chairman will stop the proceedings whom we also respect, say that the assertion of and adjourn them until the point can be properly privilege is a completely objective matter decided on argued. In my view, that is the way in which all the impartially by the Speaker and his advisers and has fears that have been expressed on the position of the nothing to do with the Government. The Speaker may unrepresented applicant will be dealt with. be the conduit through which these claims are asserted but, with the greatest respect, as the noble Lord, Lord Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I supported the Howarth, has indicated, if you believe that the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, Government have nothing to do with it, you will on Report, so I have no hesitation in supporting the believe anything. 1641 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1642

Scholars differ about the extent of financial privilege aid will deny at least 78,000 disabled people specialist but Dr Jeff King, a senior lecturer in law at University legal advice on complex welfare benefit problems. College London, said: Citizens Advice has estimated that it will amount to “The Lords has the clear right not to accept the Commons 49 per cent of its current legal aid caseload. assertion of privilege without a protest”. Disabled people are particularly disproportionately affected by the removal of welfare benefits from the 9pm scope of legal aid. As the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said, Lord Martin of Springburn: May I interrupt the 81 per cent of benefits cases heard in the First-tier noble Lord? It is very kind of him to mention me. I Tribunal relate to disability benefits. As we know, the support everything that he says. However, on privilege, Government are undertaking a dramatic overhaul of all the Speaker does is to remind the House that it is the welfare benefits system. This will see millions of dealing with amendments that have come from the claimants reassessed and moved on to different benefits. other place that involve privilege. If the other place For example, plans to replace disability living allowance wishes to accept those amendments, that is recorded in with the personal independence payment will affect the Journal of the House. That is all the Speaker does. more than 2 million people. At a time of such I make the point because when this last came up, there unprecedented upheaval in the welfare system, access was an implication that the Speaker was perhaps to legal advice is going to be essential, as inaccurate pushed by the government Whips. I just make the decisions will be inevitable. Indeed, even after three point that the Speaker does not often listen to the years of discredited Atos Healthcare assessments of Whips. In fact, the Speaker meeting the Whips is people seeking to transfer from incapacity benefit to usually like a penance during Lent. I agree with everything employment and support allowance, the success rate that the noble Lord, Lord Low, has said. The reasons of appeals is actually going up. As we have heard, it given are not a matter for the Speaker. They are agreed was 45 per cent at the last count. As the noble Lord, in the reasons room after decisions have been made. Lord Bach, said, legal advice makes all the difference; The reason can be to do with finance, but on other it is not just marginal. According to the MoJ’s own occasions other reasons are given. I hope I have not figures, you are 78 per cent more likely to win your been too long-winded in interrupting the noble Lord’s case if you have had legal advice. Of those appealing flow. against their assessment for ESA, 70 per cent of those who are advised win compared with only 43 per cent Lord Low of Dalston: I am very grateful to the of those who are not advised. noble Lord. We are in a happy state of accord. He The Government are in danger of getting themselves agrees with everything that I say and I agree with into the position where they are criticised for kicking a everything that he has said. I do not wish to suggest man down and then depriving him of the means of that the Speaker in the other place acts in any way getting up again. I think we should give the Commons other than objectively. I do not think that the Speaker another chance to avoid that charge. brings any kind of subjective judgment to bear on these matters; he just rules on these cases. However, it Baroness Doocey: My Lords, I speak in support of stretches credulity to suggest that forces other than the Amendment 168B. I share the view of the noble Lord, Speaker—to whit, the Government—may not have a Lord Bach, that the Government’s concessions are not role in raising the matters about which the Speaker has an adequate substitute for the loss of legal aid. to remind the House. That is all that I meant to say. The Government have acknowledged the fundamental I am nearly at the end of this point but I shall go principle that civil liberties are nothing if you cannot back to the beginning of the quote from Jeff King of enforce them. If you do not have the money or the University College London. He said: knowledge to defend your rights then, sadly, these “The Lords has the clear right not to accept the Commons rights become meaningless. That is where the legal aid assertion of privilege without a protest. At risk is the Lords’ system is so important, particularly for the many future scrutiny of legislation on … the whole of social policy. At the least one hopes the Lords will respond that they do not disabled people who depend on welfare benefits in consent to the Commons’ use of financial privilege on this bill order to survive. constituting a precedent”. The Government seem to support this principle in He was referring to the Welfare Reform Bill on that theory but not in practice. The Secretary of State’s occasion. As a non-party-political Peer, appointed by statement that such legal aid should be available only the Appointments Commission—if not with a particular on a “point of law” offers little in the way of practical mandate, at least on a particular set of understandings—I help for disabled people appealing against incorrect protest at the blanket use of financial privilege by the welfare benefit decisions, the majority of which are Commons to summarily defeat amendments passed in then overturned on appeal. The difficulty is that it is your Lordships’ House. We should not consent to its completely unrealistic to assume that people with no constituting a precedent, either. legal knowledge whatever will be able to understand In coming to the substance, I can be fairly brief. what a point of law is. I believe that many people will The noble Lord, Lord Bach, has set out the case very not even bring an appeal because they will not have fully and I do not want to reiterate unduly what he the knowledge or the confidence to do so without said. However, I underline that this amendment is of legal advice. enormous significance. The Government’s proposed The Government’s belief that their advice services exclusion from legal aid of the area of welfare benefits fund is an adequate substitute for legal aid is is colossal. According to their own impact assessment, groundless because it will not mitigate the cuts in legal removing welfare benefit cases from the scope of legal aid. The fund was hugely oversubscribed, and in this 1643 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1644

[BARONESS DOOCEY] At all events, my noble friend Lord Bach ventured financial year less than a third of the money has been an estimate that the cost of the amendment that we allocated to organisations delivering advice on welfare are debating now might be some £15 million. Again, I benefits. ask the Minister whether he believes that, in the context The Government have announced a further £20 million of public expenditure of the order of £100 billion per of funding for the next two years, and that is of course year, the expenditure of £15 million to provide legal most welcome. However, this is likely to be spent aid to support welfare benefit claimants in cases where plugging the gaps in generalist advice services caused there is real reason to doubt whether the assessment or by cuts to other funding sources, leaving specialist the adjudication that has been made of their case is welfare benefits advice unfunded. Once legal aid cuts appropriate is unaffordable or disproportionate. are introduced, the advice sector will lose at least The Lord Chancellor last week in the House of £100 million a year, so the £20 million fund will make Commons put the figure at £25 million, so £15 million only a very small dent in this shortfall. or £25 million in relation to social security expenditure The inadequacy of the funding is exacerbated by of £100 billion does not seem inordinately expensive. the rising demand for services that most charities are Yet, he said: facing. A recent survey carried out by Justice for All “we cannot afford provision in an area of relatively low priority”.— found that nearly 90 per cent of advice charities had [Official Report, Commons, 17/4/12; col. 224.] more people coming to them for help in the last year, Is it appropriate to describe such an area of expenditure yet over 80 per cent of the same charities also predicted as a relatively low priority? We are dealing with cases that, despite this increase in demand, they will be able of people in poverty. There would be no question of to help many fewer people next year. their being eligible for welfare benefits unless they Discretionary funding is no alternative to retaining were on low incomes. The risk for them, if they are not legal aid because it imposes no duty on the Government awarded benefit, is that they will be cast into abject to fund specialist services and will guarantee nothing poverty. For them, this is not a matter of relatively low for advice agencies. Unless welfare benefit advice is priority, and nor should it be for us. retained within the scope of legal aid, it will limit The ration that the Legal Services Commission access to justice and the right of people to enforce offers of £160 in legal aid to support advice and their freedoms. assistance in welfare benefits cases at an early stage is The Department of Work and Pensions already by no means extravagant—indeed, it represents very reimburses the Ministry of Justice for the cost of good value for money—and may make all the difference running the tribunals, which was necessary after the to people who may be awarded legal aid or benefits huge increase in appeals caused by the introduction of from organisations funded by legal aid as to whether employment and support allowance. It is unclear to they can lead decent and proper lives, reconstruct their me why this approach cannot be extended to cover the situations, support their families and live other than in cost of independent advice to improve the effectiveness poverty. of these same tribunals. We must do everything possible to protect the most 9.15 pm vulnerable people in our society. I therefore urge the The Lord Chancellor also made the point that the House to continue to press the Government to give welfare benefits tribunals are accessible and have been more concrete assurances that disabled people will be designed as tribunals in which it is realistic and practical able to access legal aid advice when appealing welfare for ordinary people to argue their case. Well, I have benefit decisions. heard it suggested by people who are extensively experienced and closely familiar with the work of the tribunals that that is not a valid assertion: that the Baroness Howarth of Breckland: On 17 April, the employment, immigrations and other tribunals that Lord Chancellor said to the House of Commons: are relevant to this particular amendment are places in “There is no doubt that the present level of legal aid provision which complex legal issues are transacted, where it is is on any measure unaffordably expensive ... Even after our not at all a simple or realistic thing for people who reforms have been carried … we will still have by far the most costly legal aid system in the world. It is almost twice as expensive have not been advised to make their way and make as that in any other country per head of population”.—[Official their case. Report, Commons, 17/4/12; col. 217.] Attention has already been drawn by my noble The amendments that the other place addressed on friend to the fact that universal credit is to be brought 17 April concerned civil legal aid, and I would be in. I understand that the transition to universal credit grateful if the Minister would advise us as to which will not be completed for several years, and could take common law jurisdictions in other countries actually as long as until 2017. This is an enormous legal and spend twice per head of population on civil legal aid regulatory set of changes. With the best will in the that we do. I recognise that our expenditure on criminal world, and I do not doubt that the administrators and legal aid is very high by international standards, but adjudicators of the social security system have the best the Government have not chosen to reform criminal will in the world—why should I doubt that?—it will be legal aid. We are dealing here with the reform of civil difficult for them to cope with the scale and complexity legal aid. I wonder whether what we are being asked to of these changes. My noble friend was quite right to accept is based on a false premise. I very much doubt anticipate that there will be a high error rate in the that it is correct that our expenditure on civil legal aid interpretation of the new law, not just in matters of is so enormously out of line as the Lord Chancellor fact. Error rates will start at the lower levels of the suggested. I am very willing to be corrected. system. Unless those legal complexities are picked up, 1645 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1646 recognised and properly dealt with at the lower levels, poverty. I heard many academics say that it was terrible there is no virtue in allowing legal aid at the higher that in the east end of Glasgow and in parts of the levels because the cases will get screened out before north end of Glasgow the life expectancy of people they ever reach the higher levels. I am worried that the was such that you had a better chance of survival if concession that the Government offered in the other you lived in Calcutta. It is all very well for an academic place last week may be less real than it may have to say that, but people in areas of great poverty in my seemed in the eyes of government supporters there. former constituency did not always get the benefits to For all these reasons it is very rash and irresponsible which they were entitled. But if they go to the first line to withdraw legal aid in this area, particularly at this of appeal, it will be most unfair if they do not get legal time. The Government simply cannot know the extent aid. In the city of Glasgow, many lawyers recognise of the damage that may be done by the withdrawal of that people who have little or no income need the help legal aid and the removal of this area of benefits from of lawyers to articulate their cases. its scope. I hope very much that they will agree with us We should not forget that when an appeal is now, and if they do not I hope that this House will ask made, often a recipient cannot speak up for themselves— the other place to think again on this peculiarly important perhaps because they are stroke victims—and cannot issue. communicate, and therefore the carer has to worry about the benefits that they are losing. The carer has a Lord Wigley: My Lords, I am glad to have the 24-hour job. When someone says they are a carer it opportunity to support the amendment of the noble rolls off the tongue, but that carer can be up at three in Lord, Lord Bach, and the comments of the noble the morning or may be denied the opportunity of a Baroness, Lady Doocey, and the noble Lord, Lord social life. They have to worry about going along to a Low, particularly in the context of disability. I speak tribunal on behalf of someone whom they love dearly having sat through the Welfare Reform Bill, as a and whom they are caring for seven days a week and it number of us did for many months during the winter, is a great relief to many of those people if they can get and having seen the complexity that was just referred legal aid which will help them so much. to a minute ago by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. It used to be the case—I know it was a while When the regulations under this legislation come forward ago—that if a working man or woman had to get the and people’s well-being—the basics of their lives—may help of a solicitor, they had to go into the city centre be at stake, they may need the ability to follow appeals but then lawyers realised that help was needed in the to wherever they go. peripheral areas. Many legal companies operate in I want to ask the Minister about the new provisions what used to be shops. They rent shops and now set out by the Government in Amendments 240A and they are in the heart of very poor communities. It 240B. They are welcome in that they preserve legal would be most unfortunate if people who need help, aid for welfare benefits advice for onward appeals to particularly carers, do not get assistance from those the Upper Tribunal, the Court of Appeal and the who are legally qualified and able to articulate a case Supreme Court. As mentioned earlier, such appeals for them. rest on points of law that are highly complex and which lay people can hardly be expected to cope with alone. Now that the Government have started to Lord McNally: My Lords, when the Government recognise the problems inherent in points of law in launched their consultative Green Paper on this legislation appeals, why do they not see fit to roll out the same nearly two years ago and I made one of my first provisions for other areas of law where points of law ministerial responses from this Dispatch Box, I made would arise? Surely such provisions should not be it clear that I was aware that we were making some limited just to welfare benefits appeals. Now that the tough and difficult decisions about legal aid. We have Government have the power to change this Bill by heard many times in many debates over the past order, especially in respect of the scope of legal aid, I 18 months that X, Y, or Z is attacking, undermining, would welcome the Minister’s assurance that they will or damaging the most vulnerable in our society. I have look again at retaining legal aid for advice on points of listened to those debates, but I remain convinced that law in other complex areas of law, for example immigration what would have damaged the most vulnerable in our appeals. Important principles arise from the changes society more would have been if we had not taken the being made and I would be very glad to have some tough economic decisions necessary to put our economy indication from the Minister about where this might right. It is no use noble Lords opposite shaking their be taking us. heads. We were a lot poorer than we thought we were and every government department has had to make Lord Martin of Springburn: My Lords, the noble tough decisions. My own has had to take cuts of Lord has made many very interesting points but, at 23 per cent across the board over this spending review. the end, he said that it would be good if the House of That has meant tough decisions not only in terms of Commons had another chance to look at this matter. legal aid, but in staff numbers and in other aspects of If the amendment were carried, the other place would the Ministry of Justice’s work. have a chance to look at this. I heard the Minister’s We have never ducked the fact that we have made comments about financial privilege, but I do not share some hard decisions in this matter. Neither have we his point of view that if we put back the amendment ducked the fact that our approach to cutting the legal we are being unfair to the House of Commons or to aid budget meant taking the bulk of social welfare law the traditions of this House. out of scope. We had taken the decision to focus on I think of the situations that I had to face in my civil legal aid. The term “relatively low priority” refers former constituency where there was a great deal of to our view that in terms of criminal legal aid we are 1647 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1648

[LORD MCNALLY] that the only practical help is legal advice. That is not talking about people’s liberty and reputation. It is an something we accept. We think that in these cases important part of our system that people should have there are other forms of advice that are just as valuable. legal aid in this area. On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Martin, that I had said that we cannot give offence to the Lord Howarth of Newport: Is the Minister therefore House of Commons, I think that if he checks Hansard confident that there is no waste in the criminal legal he will find that I have never been against this House aid budget and that there are no rackets there? Is he giving offence to the House of Commons. Indeed, I confident that this is an area that did not need the quoted the Companion earlier: Government’s attention and that since the Treasury “Criticism of proceedings in the House of Commons or of obliged his department to find savings of 23 per cent it Commons Speaker’s rulings is out of order”. really needed to focus its effort on the civil legal aid However, the Companion goes on to state that, budget? “criticism may be made of the institutional structure of Parliament or the role and function of the House of Commons”. Lord McNally: On the contrary. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Bach, is ready to leap to his feet to Lord Martin of Springburn: I think that the Minister draw attention to the fact that we have carried through suggested that for this House to send the amendment the savings in criminal legal aid that the previous back again was against the conventions of this House. Administration put in train. Lord McNally: It is not. I quoted from the Cunningham Lord Bach: Yes, I am pleased that the Government committee which held that opinion. There was a point have done that, but that figure is included in the 8 per when it was against the conventions of the House. cent that they have taken off criminal legal aid. They have taken 29 per cent off family legal aid, as well as Lord Martin of Springburn: That is an opinion of a 53 per cent off social welfare law. Why that distinction? committee; it is not a convention of this House. The Why take 8 per cent from a large amount on criminal opinion of a committee is just that: an opinion. legal aid, 29 per cent on family law but 53 per cent of a pretty small budget on social welfare law? That is Lord McNally: Nobody is suggesting that if this deliberate, is it not? House wants to send the amendment back, it is not entitled to do so. I heard what the noble Lord, Lord 9.30 pm Low, said about the importance of people’s Peers. He Lord McNally: Of course it is deliberate. One of the may know that it is my long-standing opinion that things about that rather long opening speech is that it having a party-political label does not somehow lower is the same speech that the noble Lord has been one’s capacity to take views on legislation. Indeed, for making for 18 months. I appreciate that he disagrees many hours in this House the only people taking a with our judgment on social welfare law, but we have detailed view of legislation are those on the party never made any bones about the fact that that is where political Benches. I admit and acknowledge that recent we took a tough decision. On criminal legal aid, I am appointments have brought valuable experience to this quite sure that we will return to it, but the judgment House. we made was that since the previous Administration Although my membership of the other place was had made a series of quite significant cuts in criminal brief, I remain at heart a House of Commons man in legal aid, we would allow them to bed in before terms of where— returning to that matter. The fact is that the decisions have been tough, and we stand by the fact that tough Lord Low of Dalston: With respect, in my remarks I decisions were required in the economic circumstances said that I had no intention of disparaging other that we found ourselves in and also because successive Peers. More than once I have gone on record as saying Administrations have said that the legal aid system that the contribution of Peers appointed from political was in need of reform. parties is indispensable to the effective working of this I do not know whether we have got the specific House. I am certainly not one of those who would like answers to the question asked by the noble Lord, to see the House of Lords a politician-free zone. Lord Howarth, about the balance in other common law countries. I have never used comparisons with Lord McNally: The point is that it is still an appointed continental legal things; I have always made the point House and is an advisory and revisory Chamber. As that as far as Britain is concerned the comparison is such, where this House decides to draw stumps on a with common law countries. Many months ago, on my particular issue is a matter for its judgment. Although return from the Commonwealth Law Conference in financial primacy may occasionally irritate this House, Sydney, I mentioned that the one message I brought again, as a House of Commons man and as I said back from Commonwealth countries with legal aid earlier, this is not something recently drawn up by the systems was their amazement at the generosity of the coalition agreement or even by the 1911 Act. It is British system. 300 years of our much-valued history during which We are in a process in which we have had to take kings have lost their heads and their throne in the tough decisions. Some of the contributions today by primacy of the House of Commons on financial matters. the noble Lords, Lord Low and Lord Martin, and the Much as I should like to flatter the House on this noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, almost made the case matter, I still believe that it is important. 1649 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1650

I understand the desire to see more legal advice in system, where not-for-profit organisations around the these cases. As I said in my opening remarks, we country—CABs, law centres, other advice centres and believe that in most cases individuals will be able to some Law Society solicitors—do wonderful work at appeal to the First-tier Tribunal without formal legal very low rates, giving advice to the most vulnerable, assistance. I quoted the president of the tribunal in the disabled and the poorest in our country. highlighting that in many cases eliciting additional The issue is whether claimants will continue to get information from the appellant was the most useful the advice that they have been entitled to in the past— exercise that the tribunal carried out. because there has been a consensus of the political I also think that we are not being idle while welfare classes of all the parties that that is the proper way for benefit reforms are being brought forward. A number a mature legal system to behave—which helps them of proposals currently are being considered across decide whether or not they have a case when they are government that should make it easier for people to dealing with the state. Without that advice, how will receive the right provision of entitlement in areas such these people get to the tribunal in the first place? The as welfare, benefits and education. The most notable Minister quoted the president of the Social Entitlement of these is the universal credit which will help to Chamber of the First-tier Tribunal. Is that the same reduce the scope of error significantly as it makes the president who has publicly said that he is appalled at whole benefit system simpler and easier to understand. the prospect of more and more claimants coming We are working closely with DWP as part of its wider before his tribunals who have not had the benefit of welfare reform programme to improve the quality and any legal advice? effectiveness of its initial decision-making. As I have said, we have gone into this matter fully 9.45 pm and it is not something that we have ducked. From the Access to advice is going to be more essential in the very beginning, from the first consultation paper, we years to come than in the past because of the reforms took a decision that social welfare would be taken out that have been made to the welfare and benefits system. of scope. I know how passionately the noble Lord, The CAB, a most respected organisation and one Lord Bach, feels about this matter. If he was in my which the Prime Minister himself frequently praises as position, it is not the road he would have taken to fulfil an example of how British life should carry on, has his party’s commitment to cut legal aid. That is the produced a briefing for noble Lords for tonight’s nature of things. This is the judgment of the Government. session. I will quote from a couple of places. It states: We are not looking at complex points of law in “It appears to us that the policy intent of this legislation as other areas at the moment. As the noble Lord, Lord regards much social welfare law, is that legal aid funded specialist Wigley, said, the problem is that if you make a concession advice should be collapsed into non-legal aid funded generalist somebody immediately stands up and says, “Why not advice thus obliterating the distinction. We do not agree with this look at it in other areas?”. We can build on what the approach, as in our experience those without specialist welfare Lord Chancellor promised about talks with the DWP. benefits knowledge struggle to put together coherent review requests or appeals with no input at all from independent specialist welfare The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, in explaining what he rights advisers”. was proposing, illustrated why we have been careful in putting this matter forward. We will look at it carefully It goes on to say that, and I will draw to the attention of my right honourable “we do not recognise the scenarios presented by Government that friend the Lord Chancellor the specific proposals he the Tribunal is ‘user friendly’ and suited to those with the lowest literacy levels, serious disabilities, experiencing financial hardship made in his speech. or other vulnerabilities, progressing their own case without any As I have said before, we have had a very thorough professional advice. It is often only through advice on the appeals debate on this. It has certainly been very thoroughly procedure, that many cases will ever get to considering points of debated in this place over the past year. I believe that it law before the tribunal”. would be better now if the House were to accept the The CAB finishes its briefing to all noble Lords with Commons amendments and the noble Lord were to this sentence: withdraw his. “We therefore support Lord Bach’s proposed amendment which would establish such clarity on the face of the Bill”. Lord Bach: I am very grateful to all noble Lords All this amendment does is to ask that the present who have spoken in this debate. We have had the system—as far as giving early legal advice to those expertise of the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, and the who seek it because they have problems in the field of noble Lord, Lord Low, both of whom are experts on social welfare law and, in particular, welfare benefits— the disabled and the problems that they face. I am also should continue, and that such advice should not be very grateful to my noble friend Lord Howarth and taken from these people. The Government’s proposals the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, for their are immoral because they have chosen to pick a fight very knowledgeable contributions on this matter, and with the poorest. I argue that it is unconstitutional not least to the Minister for what he has had to say. because it is an attack on those people’s access to This is one of the central and most important justice. Where else can they get justice if they cannot debates of this whole Bill. It goes to the very heart of get it through legal aid advice? The worst crime of all what the Government are seeking to do, which is is that it is financially absurd. The small sum that the effectively to ask whether social welfare law will survive ministry might save by not giving legal aid for this in our jurisdiction. We currently have a system of advice will be overwhelmed by the sum that the state social welfare law that we can be proud of. It is not will have to pay out when things go wrong—when perfect; it makes mistakes and it probably does not families break down, people lose their jobs and debts have enough money spent on it but it is not a bad get worse. 1651 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1652

[LORD BACH] Hughes of Woodside, L. Prescott, L. This is a very important point. For the Lord Chancellor Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Prosser, B. to describe it as relatively low priority only goes to Janner of Braunstone, L. Puttnam, L. Jones, L. Quin, B. show that although we have been debating these Jones of Whitchurch, B. Radice, L. matters for months, he and some of his ministerial Jordan, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. colleagues—although not the noble Lord, Lord Judd, L. Rea, L. McNally—just do not get it. They do not get the value Kennedy of Southwark, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. of this particular part of our legal system. In the end, Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Rooker, L. King of Bow, B. Rosser, L. the question is what sort of a country do we want to Kinnock, L. Rowlands, L. live in? Do we want to live in a country where the most Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Royall of Blaisdon, B. hard-pressed, the poorest, the most vulnerable and the Knight of Weymouth, L. Sawyer, L. disabled are actually helped by the legal system when Layard, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. the time is appropriate—when they need help it is Lea of Crondall, L. Sewel, L. Levy, L. Sherlock, B. there, and we provide it through pretty cheap legal Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Simon, V. aid—or do we want to live in a country where that just Liddle, L. Smith of Basildon, B. does not happen? We are in danger of moving backwards Lister of Burtersett, B. Smith of Finsbury, L. in this field, where the poorest and the most vulnerable— Listowel, E. Soley, L. who this House has always been concerned to do its Low of Dalston, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, best for—will suffer. I ask the House, with all the McAvoy, L. L. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. passion that I have, to support the amendment in my McFall of Alcluith, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. name. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Thornton, B. McKenzie of Luton, L. Touhig, L. Mallalieu, B. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] 9.48 pm Martin of Springburn, L. Turnberg, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Turner of Camden, B. Division on Motion G1 Massey of Darwen, B. Wall of New Barnet, B. Maxton, L. Warner, L. Contents 159; Not-Contents 197. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Morgan of Ely, B. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Morris of Aberavon, L. Wheeler, B. Motion G1 disagreed. Morris of Handsworth, L. Whitaker, B. Morris of Yardley, B. Whitty, L. Division No. 6 Nye, B. Wigley, L. O’Loan, B. Wills, L. CONTENTS O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Winston, L. Pannick, L. Wood of Anfield, L. Adams of Craigielea, B. Drake, B. Patel of Bradford, L. Woolf, L. Adonis, L. Dubs, L. Pendry, L. Worthington, B. Alli, L. Elder, L. Pitkeathley, B. Young of Hornsey, B. Alton of Liverpool, L. Elystan-Morgan, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Andrews, B. Evans of Parkside, L. Avebury, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. NOT CONTENTS Bach, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. Finlay of Llandaff, B. Addington, L. Carlile of Berriew, L. [Teller] Ford, B. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Cathcart, E. Bath and Wells, Bp. Foster of Bishop Auckland, Alderdice, L. Cavendish of Furness, L. Beecham, L. L. Allan of Hallam, L. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Berkeley, L. Gale, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Chidgey, L. Bilimoria, L. Gavron, L. Armstrong of Ilminster, L. Clement-Jones, L. Bilston, L. Golding, B. Arran, E. Colwyn, L. Blackstone, B. Goldsmith, L. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Cope of Berkeley, L. Boateng, L. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Hamdon, L. Cotter, L. Borrie, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. Ashton of Hyde, L. Craigavon, V. Bradley, L. Grabiner, L. Astor of Hever, L. Crickhowell, L. Brennan, L. Grantchester, L. Attlee, E. Cumberlege, B. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Grenfell, L. Barker, B. De Mauley, L. Brookman, L. Grey-Thompson, B. Bates, L. Deben, L. Browne of Ladyton, L. Griffiths of Burry Port, Benjamin, B. Dholakia, L. Campbell-Savours, L. L. Berridge, B. Dixon-Smith, L. Carter of Coles, L. Grocott, L. Bew, L. Dobbs, L. Clancarty, E. Hanworth, V. Black of Brentwood, L. Dykes, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Harris of Haringey, L. Blencathra, L. Eccles, V. Clinton-Davis, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Eden of Winton, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Haworth, L. B. Elton, L. Corston, B. Hayman, B. Bridgeman, V. Empey, L. Crawley, B. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Brinton, B. Falkner of Margravine, B. Davies of Oldham, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Faulks, L. Davies of Stamford, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Fearn, L. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, Hollins, B. L. Fink, L. B. Hollis of Heigham, B. Brougham and Vaux, L. Flight, L. Desai, L. Howarth of Newport, L. Browne of Belmont, L. Fookes, B. Dixon, L. Howells of St Davids, B. Burnett, L. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Donaghy, B. Hoyle, L. Byford, B. Fowler, L. Doocey, B. Hughes of Stretford, B. Caithness, E. Framlingham, L. 1653 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1654

Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Northover, B. Freud, L. Norton of Louth, L. Motion H Garden of Frognal, B. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, Moved by Lord McNally Gardiner of Kimble, L. L. Gardner of Parkes, B. O’Cathain, B. Geddes, L. That this House do not insist on its Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Amendments 170 and 172 to which the Commons German, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Glenarthur, L. Parminter, B. have disagreed for their Reasons 170A and 172A. Glendonbrook, L. Perry of Southwark, B. Gold, L. Phillips of Sudbury, L. 170A Because it would alter the financial arrangements Goodlad, L. Popat, L. Goschen, V. made by the Commons, and the Commons do not offer Grade of Yarmouth, L. Ramsbotham, L. any further Reason, trusting that this reason may be Green of Hurstpierpoint, Randerson, B. deemed sufficient. L. Rawlings, B. Hamwee, B. Razzall, L. Hanham, B. Rennard, L. 172A Because it would alter the financial arrangements Harris of Peckham, L. Ribeiro, L. made by the Commons, and the Commons do not offer Henley, L. Risby, L. any further Reason, trusting that this reason may be Heyhoe Flint, B. Roberts of Conwy, L. deemed sufficient. Higgins, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Hill of Oareford, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Home, E. Sanderson of Bowden, L. Lord McNally: My Lords, the Motion contains Hooper, B. Sassoon, L. amendments dealing with clinical negligence. We have Howard of Lympne, L. Scott of Needham Market, debated the issue of clinical negligence at length, and I Howard of Rising, L. B. Howe, E. Seccombe, B. am grateful for the intensity and conviction of those Howell of Guildford, L. Selborne, E. who have spoken in support and those who have Hunt of Wirral, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. challenged the Government during the passage of this Hussain, L. Selsdon, L. Bill. Before I go into the detail of this Motion, I Hussein-Ece, B. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. remind noble Lords that we listened to their concerns Inglewood, L. Sharkey, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Sharp of Guildford, B. and brought forward an amendment at Third Reading Jenkin of Roding, L. Sharples, B. in this House which specifically addresses their concerns. Jolly, B. Sheikh, L. This amendment puts beyond doubt that legal aid will King of Bridgwater, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. remain available for babies who suffer brain injury at Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Shipley, L. birth leading to a lifetime of care needs. This was in Kramer, B. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Lamont of Lerwick, L. Skelmersdale, L. recognition that there are often difficulties in obtaining Lawson of Blaby, L. Smith of Clifton, L. funding for these cases through conditional fee agreements Lee of Trafford, L. Spicer, L. due to the extent and expense of the investigations Lester of Herne Hill, L. Stedman-Scott, B. required. Lexden, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Lingfield, L. Stephen, L. Our amendment brings into scope claims where Linklater of Butterstone, B. Stewartby, L. medical negligence causes a brain injury as a result of Loomba, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. which the child is severely disabled. It is intended that Luke, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. this will cover cases of medical negligence where the Lyell, L. Strasburger, L. child is at its most vulnerable, during its time in the McColl of Dulwich, L. Strathclyde, L. Macdonald of River Glaven, Taylor of Goss Moor, L. womb, during the delivery, and immediately afterwards. L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. The House of Commons raised concern that there MacGregor of Pulham Teverson, L. might be arguments about whether a particular child Market, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. falls within the scope of this amendment. We believe McNally, L. Tope, L. that the amendment is clear in this regard. It provides Maddock, B. Trefgarne, L. for funding where the negligence occurs in the period Magan of Castletown, L. Trimble, L. Mancroft, L. True, L. of time beginning with the point of the mother’s Mar and Kellie, E. Tugendhat, L. pregnancy until eight weeks after birth. In recognition Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Tyler, L. of the fact that premature babies are particularly L. Tyler of Enfield, B. vulnerable, the government amendment also provides Marland, L. Verma, B. that where a baby is born prematurely, the eight-week Marlesford, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. period will be taken to start from the point at which Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Walmsley, B. the mother would otherwise have begun her 37th week B. Warsi, B. of pregnancy. Montrose, D. Wasserman, L. We have also provided that where the negligence Morris of Bolton, B. Wei, L. Naseby, L. Wheatcroft, B. occurs beyond the eight-week point, a safety net will Neville-Jones, B. Wilcox, B. remain in the form of the exceptional funding scheme, Newby, L. Williams of Crosby, B. in those cases where the failure to fund would amount Newlove, B. Williamson of Horton, L. to a breach of the individual’s rights under the ECHR. Noakes, B. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Contrary to the concern expressed in the other House Younger of Leckie, V. Northbrook, L. it is right that all other cases should first seek a conditional fee agreement, and where one is not 9.59 pm available—for example, due to high disbursement costs— then exceptional funding may be available, taking into Motion G agreed. account factors such as the complexity of the case and 1655 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1656

[LORD MCNALLY] Lord Cormack: My Lords, I will not detain your the capacity of the litigant or litigation friend to Lordships long. This is a simple, precise amendment. present their case. The Government’s amendment covers It does not cover the ground of Amendment 170, but the vast majority of clinical negligence children’s cases it does repeat, almost exactly, the amendment which currently funded through legal aid. your Lordships’ House approved just before we rose My noble Friend Lord Cormack has tabled an for the Easter Recess. When I moved the amendment amendment in lieu of his Lords Amendment 172, at that stage, I made it quite plain that I felt that it was which seeks to bring into scope other children’s cases very wrong to single out a specific group of children involving clinical negligence that occurred when the who had suffered as a result of clinical negligence, and child was below the age of 16, rather than 18. We to leave the others. I have heard, of course, what my believe that this amendment would still bring into noble friend has said, and I do not for a moment scope a whole range of less serious cases which do not question his personal commitment to these issues. But involve lengthy and detailed investigations or multiple we have not had any adequate response in the very expert reports, which are caught by government brief debate in the House of Commons, and my noble Amendment 216, and which are more suited for funding friend merely repeated this evening the amendment through a CFA in exactly the same way as for adults. that the Government introduced at an earlier stage, We believe this to be the case whether the child is 18 or which of course we welcome, but which creates an 16. The Commons has decided against Lords Amendment anomaly and an unfairness. 172, and it is my opinion that my noble friend’s When we debated this last time, my noble friend amendment in lieu will elicit the same response. I urge Lady Eaton—who signed the earlier amendment along my noble friend to withdraw his Motion. with the late Lord Newton of Braintree—made a very On Amendment 170, the Government have already moving speech in which she talked about a child who made special provision for expert reports in clinical had not suffered from brain damage, but who had negligence reports to the Jackson provisions in Part 2. been paralysed. She talked about the needs of a child This will mean that no one is required to pay upfront who would grow up to be able to walk, in spite of the for expert reports in clinical negligence cases. Providing brain damage, and a child that would remain paralysed for all expert reports would be more costly than the for the rest of his life. It was a movingly made speech, current legal aid arrangements. As I have said previously, which illustrated what this amendment is all about. at present solicitors have to choose whether to use I have heard what my noble friend has said about legal aid or a CFA to fund the case. Only 18 per cent of other means of getting support. I would just repeat a cases where the funding method is known use legal point that I made in my last speech: the National aid. The amendment would open up legal aid for all of Health Service—of which we are all proud, and which those cases which are currently funded by way of we have spent many months discussing in your CFA. Lawyers would be able to claim their success fee Lordships’ House during the course of this parliamentary while using legal aid to fund expert fees, and the legal Session—is an agency of the state. If anyone suffers as aid fund would carry all of the solicitor’s or insurer’s a result of the negligence of an agency of the state, risk. This could result in a significant expansion of the then the state should, automatically and properly, legal aid scheme and significant costs. We do not provide a means of redress. This amendment does not consider this a fair outcome for the taxpayer, who go so far as that, because it concerns itself wholly and should not be required to pay where cases are already exclusively with children. I believe that, in all fairness, taken forward and paid for by alternative means. I beg it is an amendment that even at this late hour should to move. commend itself once again to your Lordships’ House. I believe that it would be appropriate for us to ask the Motion H1 (as an amendment to Motion H) other place to think again. It did not think very much Moved by Lord Cormack about this one, and it really should. In his brief intervention this afternoon, my noble friend Lord Higgins referred At end insert “but do propose Amendment 172B to the inadequacy of time given in another place to as an amendment in lieu”. your Lordships’ considered amendments. As we look 172B* Page 115, line 5, at end insert— to the future of your Lordships’ House, we ought to consider, in the imbalance between the two Houses, “Children and clinical negligence whether it might not be appropriate to do a little more (1) Civil legal services provided in relation to clinical insisting, if what we have deliberated on is so summarily negligence in the course of the provision of clinical dismissed. services which took place at a time when the individual Given the present conventions, and the relationship was child. between the two Houses as they exist, I do not believe (2) In this paragraph— that one should go on and on playing a game of ping-pong. However, in this instance we have every “clinical negligence” means breach of a duty of care or right to say to another place, “Please think about this. trespass to the person committed in the course of the Think about the children who suffer as a result of provision of clinical or medical services (including dental clinical negligence. This is your opportunity to redress or nursing services); an imbalance”, because welcome as it is, and I repeat “clinical negligence proceedings” means proceedings which that it is welcome, what the Government have done include a claim for damages in respect of clinical negligence; does not go far enough. Let us send this back. Let the other place think, and because there are no large sums “child” means a person under the age of 16.” of public money involved in this—indeed it could be 1657 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1658 argued that we are probably in the long term saving very much better off pursuing a claim by means of a public money—let them in their charity look to those conditional fee agreement as things stand at the moment. who are most deserving of that charity. I beg to move. I shall explain. My noble friend Lord McNally has on two separate Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I very strongly occasions during the Bill’s passage outlined fully the support the amendment. There is a very strong reason Government’s intention to introduce a supplementary for looking at children separately from adults. Indeed legal aid scheme, which was part of the Access to the age of 16, as outlined in this amendment, makes Justice Act 1999, passed by the party opposite, whereby sense because in the General Medical Council guidance there would be an automatic 25 per cent deduction 16 is the age at which a child can be assumed to have from the damages recovered by a claimant who is capacity to consent. When treating a child who is legally aided. As things stand, if a child succeeds actively withholding consent to treatment and who is under legal aid in obtaining damages, 25 per cent of aged between 16 and 18, the doctor should and must those damages will be taken by the state under the think again. Those under 16, however, go into treatment proposed supplementary legal aid scheme, which will at the consent of their parent or guardian, not of be used to fund other applicants for legal aid automatically. themselves. If they are then subject to error, whether Under a conditional fee agreement, the solicitor who that is unfortunate or negligent or almost wilfully acts on behalf of the child claimant will be entitled to neglectful, they have done so not with their own recover his fees, if he can establish the case, from the informed consent but with that of others. other side. But when it comes to the success fee, under these proposals, it will be recoverable from the damages The amendment that the Government have brought of the child and limited to 25 per cent of those forward, which relates to neonates and birth-related damages. trauma, is, I suggest, fraught with difficulties over the problem of premature babies and accurate estimation A success fee cannot exceed 100 per cent of the of the date on which they would had been born. Even lawyer’s normal fees that he recovers from the other in the very best of hands, estimates of their expected side, so it may never come anywhere near the 25 per date of delivery have to have a plus or minus of four cent of the damages that the child recovers. Under a days around them. That would impose an eight-day conditional fee agreement, the success fee is related to error. I fear that there will be endless arguments. the amount of the fees, not the amount of the damages. Should there be a small, very premature baby in a There is not a 25 per cent deduction from the child’s neonatal unit, and should somebody inadvertently damages automatically. That is just a cap to prevent a inject the wrong drug or should their ventilator success fee from going to an extreme amount. inadvertently be set incorrectly—switched off from Consequently, it may be that the legally aided child, oxygen levels, or whatever—I fear that there will be who will have an automatic 25 per cent reduction of arguments around whether the expected date of delivery his damages, will be in a worse position than one was really the one that had been written on the notes. under a conditional fee agreement. I do not think that Was it actually two days forward from that or two that point has properly sunk in. It is for that reason days back, depending on the date of the error? that I look to the Government, perhaps not tonight but at some time if regulations come forward for the This amendment avoids that kind of deeply traumatic supplementary legal aid scheme, to exempt children argument and recognises the fact that a child undergoing from the 25 per cent reduction proposed under that treatment has not given their informed consent to it. scheme. As things stand, 25 per cent will be taken off. That treatment has been at the consent of others For those reasons, I do not think that the amendment acting on that child’s behalf. They must therefore be proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, assists treated differently from adults because they are vulnerable the children that he wishes to help. on two counts: first, their age, and, secondly, because there was of course something wrong in the first place for them to be entrusted to the care of the service Lord Beecham: If I understand the noble Lord, which then failed them. Lord Thomas, correctly—he is obviously more conversant with the Access to Justice Act 1999 than I am—provision is contained within that Act for regulations to be Lord Higgins: My Lords, perhaps I may intervene made— for a moment to ask my noble friend a rather simple- minded question. The Reason given by the Commons Lord Thomas of Gresford: It was never implemented. set out in 170A states: “Because it would alter the financial arrangements made by the Commons”. Lord Beecham: I was about to say precisely that. It Can my noble friend briefly tell us exactly what these was never implemented so it is open to the Government financial arrangements are, to the extent that they to lay regulations that would require that 25 per cent affect the state of the economy in terms of public deduction. It is equally open to them to do what their expenditure and so on? predecessors did and not lay such regulations or make that deduction. I am entirely at one with the noble Lord in saying that that deduction should not be 10.15 pm made, but that is the situation at the moment. Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, there is something With respect to the noble Lord, I do not think that ironic in the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, his argument takes us very far at all. The Opposition to maintain legal aid for children as a child might be support the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, 1659 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1660

[LORD BEECHAM] a pretty feeble and diminutive fig leaf for any Minister Lord Cormack, despite the fact that it appears to to hide behind. It is not an adequate defence for what contain a grammatical error. It refers to, they are doing. “clinical services which took place at a time when the individual I repeat: the figures show that the potential savings was child”. are minimal. Undoubtedly, justice will not be accessible There is an indefinite article missing somewhere. However, for too many young people except in an expensive that is a trivial point. The substantive point is one that form potentially through a conditional fee agreement— was made effectively by the noble Baroness, Lady even allowing for how the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, Eaton, when we debated this on Report. In the debate described it. I very much hope that the House will on the amendment that was discussed on that occasion, build on the Government’s welcome concession with she talked of the figures involved in legal aid expenditure this small additional financial burden and extend justice for children. She pointed out that legal aid for clinical to those who need it. negligence claims involving children cost the Legal Aid Fund some £4.6 million, of which £3 million was Lord McNally: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord spent on precisely the cases of neonatal injury to Higgins, quoted the reason, which states that the which the Minister referred and to which the Government amendment, have responded by restoring them within scope. Therefore, “would alter the financial arrangements made by the Commons”, as the noble Baroness pointed out, the net saving would amount to £1.6 million for the Legal Aid Fund. and goes on to state that, “the Commons do not offer any further Reason”. It is time to dispose of some of the shibboleths about tough decisions and the like. Apparently it is As an old parliamentarian, he knows that if an not a particularly tough decision for the Department amendment infringes privilege, that is the only reason for Communities and Local Government to spend that will be given. Obviously, when taken against the £250 million on weekly bin collections. It seems to me national economic crisis that we are dealing with, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, and presumably these various precise sums will always be able to be the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, a very tough decision argued away as almost too trivial to worry about. to deny legal aid at a cost of £1.6 million to children Perhaps I may relate to the House some other under the age of 16 who suffer clinical negligence thoughts that have also motivated our approach in other than through the limited but welcome concession trying to reform legal aid in this area. Clinical negligence that the Government have made in respect of the claimant lawyers’ bills, which the National Health injuries to which we have referred. Service Litigation Authority has to pay, have more I also remind your Lordships of the view of the than doubled from £83 million in 2006-07 to £195 million National Health Service Litigation Authority, which I in 2010-11. As part of this, CFA success fees to quoted last time and will quote again. It stated: claimant lawyers have more than doubled in the past four years from £28 million to £66 million, and the “We have serious concerns over the proposal to withdraw legal NHSLA pays out an estimated £33 million in claimant aid from clinical negligence claims. Whilst we have seen an upsurge of claims brought under Conditional Fee Agreements … insurance premiums. However, damages paid to claimants in recent years, we question whether CFAs are likely to be readily have risen more slowly—from £579.4 million to available to fund many of the more serious claims currently £863.4 million over the same period—and the NHSLA brought via legal aid”. has controlled its own defence legal costs much more That view was about clinical negligence claims at carefully, rising only 26 per cent during the same large. Therefore, one might think that those concerns period. would surely apply to claims for children under the One motivation behind our approach in this whole age of 16. area has been the impact that the system brought in by This does not remotely impinge on the huge problems the previous Government in 2000 has had on the that the Minister constantly reminds us of in relation National Health Service, with an extraordinary rise in to deficit reduction and the like. It is an almost trivial payments to lawyers. We are trying to address that. In sum of money. By no conceivable stretch of the doing so, early on we listened carefully to concerns imagination could it be justified by financial privilege, about the specific issues faced by the most vulnerable which is the cover under which the Government children at the most vulnerable point in their lives, and approach this amendment. Let us be clear about financial we brought forward amendments to deal with that. Of privilege because it has been bandied around today course, in these areas there will always be disputes and on previous occasions. Of course the Commons about where you draw the line and what happens to has the right to assert financial privilege, which is an those on the other side of that line. However, in objective process as far as the Clerks and the Speaker bringing forward our amendments our intention was are concerned. However, it does not stop there. The to meet that initial lobbying, and we responded to it Commons can waive financial privilege. If the most positively. However, that was immediately followed Government wished for financial privilege to be waived, by further lobbying that this should cover all children, it would pass almost without opposition and frequently but we do not believe that that is necessary. does. It is often waived. The Government choose not The amendment purposely captures clinical negligence to waive it in connection with this and the other before, during and shortly after birth. We believe that matters to which we have referred. It is a fig leaf that is a proportionate means of meeting the policy behind which Ministers hide. I hesitate to convey an objective of targeting legal aid on the most serious image of Ministers brandishing fig leaves; that would and complex cases that would otherwise struggle to be an unwelcome variation on a theme. However, it is obtain a CFA. The eight-week period is an appropriate 1661 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1662 period of time at which to draw the line, because most be the beneficiary in the moral sense. We should of the serious and complex clinical negligence cases concern ourselves about that. Of course the Government involving neurological injuries to infants are likely to have problems. Of course they have great responsibilities arise from treatment or care administered during this for the economy. We are not, however, talking this period, when the infant can be considered to be most evening about something that can in any way damage vulnerable. We have drawn the post-birth line at this the financial strategy. What it can do is damage our point because of that. We also recognise that some reputation. I wish to test the opinion of the House. children will be born prematurely and will need fairly intensive medical supervision in the first weeks of life. 10.33 pm Any cases in which negligence occurs beyond this point will need to be considered under exceptional Division on Motion H1. funding on a case-by-case basis. It is difficult— Contents 125; Not-Contents 168. Lord Faulks: I am very grateful to my noble friend Motion H1 disagreed. for giving way. I wonder whether he can help the House on one point. Originally, before the welcome Division No. 7 concession by the Government concerning babies CONTENTS damaged at or about the time of birth, the response was that exceptional funding might be available to Adonis, L. Hereford, Bp. Alli, L. Higgins, L. meet those claims. Now that those claims are to be Alton of Liverpool, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. within the scope of legal aid, does it follow that more Armstrong of Ilminster, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. exceptional funding might be available to deal with the Bach, L. Howarth of Newport, L. hard cases that may arise with children who are outside Bassam of Brighton, L. Hughes of Stretford, B. the scope of the eight-week period? [Teller] Hughes of Woodside, L. Bath and Wells, Bp. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Beecham, L. Jones, L. Lord McNally: I do not think that exceptional Berkeley, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. funding has ever been a specific amount of money and Bew, L. Judd, L. that therefore the amendment releases more of the Bilimoria, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. exceptional funding pot to others. The exceptional Bilston, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Blackstone, B. Layard, L. funding is there to meet cases that fulfil the requirements Boateng, L. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. for exceptional funding. I will not follow my noble Bradley, L. Liddle, L. friend because he leads me down a dangerous road. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. The exceptional funding is and will be there on the Brookman, L. Listowel, E. merits of the case. That is why we have confidence that Browne of Belmont, L. Low of Dalston, L. Browne of Ladyton, L. McAvoy, L. the combination of the amendments that we have Campbell-Savours, L. McFall of Alcluith, L. made, the CFAs, which, as was pointed out, some Clancarty, E. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. 82 per cent are already using, and a robust exceptional Clark of Windermere, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. funding scheme will meet the needs in the cases that Collins of Highbury, L. Mallalieu, B. are covered by the amendment that we are opposing. Cormack, L. Martin of Springburn, L. Corston, B. Masham of Ilton, B. Again, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment Craigavon, V. Massey of Darwen, B. and to support the Commons. Davies of Stamford, L. Maxton, L. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, Morgan of Ely, B. Lord Cormack: My Lords, I felt very sad as I B. Morris of Handsworth, L. Desai, L. Morris of Yardley, B. listened to a Minister, for whom I have both affection Dixon, L. O’Loan, B. and respect, fail to answer this brief debate. Donaghy, B. Pannick, L. I am grateful to all those who have taken part. It Drake, B. Pitkeathley, B. has been brief, but that does not mean that the issue is Dubs, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. Eaton, B. Prescott, L. unimportant. I apologise, incidentally, to the noble Elder, L. Prosser, B. Lord, Lord Beecham, for the missing indefinite article, Elystan-Morgan, L. Puttnam, L. but we are talking about a definite proposition. That Evans of Parkside, L. Quin, B. definite proposition is this: we often talk about rights Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Ramsbotham, L. and responsibilities, and certain people have particular Faulkner of Worcester, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. Finlay of Llandaff, B. Rooker, L. rights and to them we have particular responsibilities. Ford, B. Rosser, L. We are talking about children—those under the age of Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. 16: children who are damaged as a result of clinical Gale, B. Sawyer, L. negligence within the National Health Service that the Golding, B. Scotland of Asthal, B. country provides for them and in which they and their Goldsmith, L. Sherlock, B. parents place their trust. To limit the help, in a very Gordon of Strathblane, L. Simon, V. Gould of Potternewton, B. Smith of Basildon, B. small timeframe, to those who suffer brain damage is Grantchester, L. Smith of Finsbury, L. frankly not the hallmark of a civilised health service Grenfell, L. Soley, L. or a civilised society. Grey-Thompson, B. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. I know not whether the figure of £1.6 million given Hanworth, V. Taylor of Bolton, B. Harris of Haringey, L. Thornton, B. by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is right, but it is Haworth, L. Tonge, B. certainly around that figure. Indeed, the state would Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Touhig, L. be the beneficiary in the long term. It would certainly Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] 1663 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1664

Turnberg, L. Williamson of Horton, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Teverson, L. Turner of Camden, B. Winston, L. Selsdon, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Wall of New Barnet, B. Woolf, L. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Tope, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Sharkey, L. Worthington, B. Trimble, L. Wheeler, B. Sharp of Guildford, B. True, L. Whitaker, B. Young of Hornsey, B. Sharples, B. Tugendhat, L. Wigley, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Sheikh, L. Tyler, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. Tyler of Enfield, B. Shipley, L. Verma, B. NOT CONTENTS Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Wallace of Saltaire, L. Addington, L. Home, E. Skelmersdale, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Hooper, B. Spicer, L. Walmsley, B. Alderdice, L. Howard of Lympne, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Warsi, B. Allan of Hallam, L. Howard of Rising, L. Stephen, L. Wasserman, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Howe, E. Stewartby, L. Wei, L. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Howell of Guildford, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Wheatcroft, B. Hamdon, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. Ashton of Hyde, L. Hussain, L. Strasburger, L. Wilcox, B. Astor of Hever, L. Inglewood, L. Taylor of Goss Moor, L. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Attlee, E. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Younger of Leckie, V. Avebury, L. Jenkin of Roding, L. Barker, B. Jolly, B. 10.44 pm Bates, L. King of Bridgwater, L. Berridge, B. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Black of Brentwood, L. Kramer, B. Motion H agreed. Blencathra, L. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Lawson of Blaby, L. B. Lee of Trafford, L. Motion J Bridgeman, V. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Moved by Baroness Northover Brinton, B. Lexden, L. Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Lingfield, L. That this House do not insist on its Amendment 171 Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Linklater of Butterstone, B. to which the Commons have disagreed for their L. Liverpool, E. Reason 171A. Brougham and Vaux, L. Loomba, L. Burnett, L. Luke, L. Byford, B. Lyell, L. 171A Because it would alter the financial arrangements Carlile of Berriew, L. Macdonald of River Glaven, made by the Commons, and the Commons do not offer Cathcart, E. L. any further Reason, trusting that this reason may be Cavendish of Furness, L. MacGregor of Pulham deemed sufficient. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Market, L. Chidgey, L. McNally, L. Clement-Jones, L. Maddock, B. Baroness Northover: Motion J concerns legal aid Cope of Berkeley, L. Magan of Castletown, L. for children. When the Government undertook their Cotter, L. Mancroft, L. comprehensive review of legal aid, we looked at the Crickhowell, L. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, De Mauley, L. L. principles of each type of case funded by the scheme Deben, L. Marland, L. and considered, first, the importance of the issue; Dholakia, L. Marlesford, L. secondly, the litigant’s ability to present their own Dixon-Smith, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. case, including and especially any vulnerability; thirdly, Dobbs, L. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, the availability of alternative sources of funding; and, Doocey, B. B. Dykes, L. Montrose, D. fourthly, the availability of other routes to resolution. Eccles, V. Morris of Bolton, B. We have used those principles to prioritise funding so Eden of Winton, L. Neville-Jones, B. that civil legal services will be available in the highest- Elton, L. Newby, L. priority cases—for example, as my noble friend Lord Empey, L. Newlove, B. McNally said earlier, where people’s life or liberty is at Falkner of Margravine, B. Noakes, B. Faulks, L. Northbrook, L. stake, where they are at risk of serious physical harm Fink, L. Northover, B. or immediate loss of their home, or where children Flight, L. Norton of Louth, L. may be taken into care. Fookes, B. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. The application of these principles led us to protect Forsyth of Drumlean, L. O’Cathain, B. Framlingham, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. the vast majority of funding in cases involving children. Freud, L. Parminter, B. These include family cases where a child is at risk of Garden of Frognal, B. Perry of Southwark, B. abuse; child care and supervision cases; civil claims Gardiner of Kimble, L. Phillips of Sudbury, L. concerning the abuse of a child; special educational Gardner of Parkes, B. Popat, L. needs cases; clinical negligence claims concerning brain- Geddes, L. Randerson, B. damaged babies; cases concerning the inherent jurisdiction German, L. Rawlings, B. Glendonbrook, L. Razzall, L. of the High Court in respect of children; cases concerning Gold, L. Ribeiro, L. the unlawful removal of children from the UK; cases Goodlad, L. Risby, L. concerning EU and international agreements on children; Grade of Yarmouth, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. and legal aid for children who are made parties to Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. Sanderson of Bowden, L. private family proceedings. That is why 96 per cent of Hamwee, B. Sassoon, L. Hanham, B. Scott of Needham Market, B. the current spend on cases involving child claimants Henley, L. Seccombe, B. will continue. Because we have adopted the approach Hill of Oareford, L. Selborne, E. that I have outlined, we do not accept Amendment 171, 1665 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1666 which seeks to bring all cases back into the scope of Civil legal services in relation to advice and proceedings legal aid where a child is a party. On current plans, the where a child is, or proposes to be, the applicant or overwhelming majority of current support will continue, respondent in proceedings, or where the child is represented as I said. by a legal guardian, including— The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, has tabled Amendment 171B, which is almost identical to (a) private family law; Amendment 171, with the exception of immigration (b) any benefit, allowance, payment, credit or pension and consumer law cases, on which the House of Commons under— has offered a clear view. In our opinion, Amendment 171B will elicit the same response in the House of Commons. (i) the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992, However, I will set out again the measures that are in place that will guard against the risk of children (ii) the Jobseekers Act 1995, falling through the net. As noble Lords know, we have committed to providing (iii) the State Pension Credit Act 2002, additional resources for citizens advice bureaux and (iv) the Tax Credits Act 2002, similar groups that provide the general practical advice that can often prove more productive than drawn-out (v) the Welfare Reform Act 2007, adversarial legal action. As I mentioned earlier today, we will be making a further £20 million available to (vi) the Welfare Reform Act 2012, or the sector in each of the next two financial years. It is therefore not the case that there will be no or substantially (vii) any other enactment relating to social security; reduced funding for cases involving children and young people. (c) all areas of education law not otherwise covered in this Schedule; Some in past debates have suggested that children might be left to fend for themselves in courts of law. (d) all areas of housing law not otherwise covered in Let me address that very clearly.It is already a requirement this Schedule; of the rules of civil litigation that a child must have a litigation friend to conduct a case on their behalf, (e) all areas of debt-related disputes not otherwise usually a parent unless the court specifically orders covered in this Schedule; otherwise. It will be only in exceptional circumstances that the court will make an order permitting the child (f) all areas of clinical negligence law not otherwise to conduct proceedings on their own behalf. Any step covered in this Schedule; taken before a child has a litigation friend is of no effect unless the court makes such an order. There is (g) appeals to the Criminal Injuries Compensation no requirement that a litigation friend must act through Authority; a solicitor. It is therefore open to a child’s parent, or (h) a review or an appeal under section 11 or 13 of the other person caring for the child, for example, to act as Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007; the child’s litigation friend in proceedings where the child is a party. (i) an appeal to the Supreme Court.” In other scenarios—for example, tribunals that are addressed in the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness Grey-Thompson: My Lords, this amendment Baroness—where a child may be bringing an action is in my name at this stage. However, it received without a litigation friend, this will of course be a support from the late Lord Newton of Braintree and relevant factor in deciding whether they have the ability the noble Baronesses, Lady Eaton and Lady Benjamin, to present their own case and whether exceptional throughout the passage of the Bill. funding for representation is required in order to avoid This amendment is narrower than the one that was a breach of Article 6 of the ECHR. This means that previously carried by your Lordships’ House. I was the existing Civil Procedure Rules, combined with our extremely disappointed that, due to the financial exceptional funding system, will provide crucial safeguards arrangements in the other place, I had to remove the against children being left to navigate court and tribunal areas of consumer law and immigration, as the latter hearings on their own. We believe that these measures, alone accounts for around a third of the cases affecting taken together, are sufficient to guard against the risk children. This Motion makes legal aid available for of children falling through the net where they do not children in cases where a boy or girl is a victim of fall into the vast majority of cases that are still covered medical negligence or malpractice, in all cases of private by legal aid. I beg to move. family law, education, housing and social welfare and for criminal injury appeals only after they are financially Motion J1 (as an amendment to Motion J) means-tested and found to qualify. This Motion would give legal aid to about 3,000 extra children a year who Moved by Baroness Grey-Thompson are not explicitly covered by the Bill. It would cost the At end insert “but do propose Amendment 171B Government about £3.2 million a year and could be as an amendment in lieu”. easily affordable. When you consider that the Legal Services Commission is sitting on £500 million-worth 171B* Page 115, line 5, at end insert— of confiscation orders that it has not yet collected against supercriminals, there are other ways to save “Children under 18 money rather than targeting children. 1667 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1668

[BARONESS GREY-THOMPSON] of 12 and does not succeed on asylum but gets leave to At present, legal aid helps around 40,000 children remain will after three years, at the age of 15, be every year who have civil justice legal problems in their seeking immigration status in circumstances that will own right. If the Bill is left as it stands, legal aid will have changed dramatically. not be available for thousands of children under the I can see that there may be different considerations age of 18 who would qualify if the current rules for a child who comes within a family but there must remained in place. It is estimated that between 5,000 be cases where the child should be represented separately. and 6,000 children could be affected. The Government We have a spent a lot of time on this and we know that have not explained the rationale of why some immigration is complex; that social workers are not children are being treated differently from other qualified to deal with it; and that legal advisers need to children who have problems under the same categories be specially licensed for it. I know that we are not in a of law. position to change this but it is right to put on record On our 40th day of debate in your Lordships’ some disappointment. But there is hope that as time House I asked why 220 of last year’s cases on education goes on the Government will realise that this is something would qualify but 110 children would not receive on which particular help is needed. access to legal aid. I still have not had an answer to that question. We have been told that individual children may qualify under an exceptional cases fund, and The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I support the noble more information has been provided, but I still fear Baroness in her amendment. I should like to talk that children will fall through the net. about young people leaving care at the age of 16 or It is probably slightly unfair of me to quote the 17 and how this affects them. I was very grateful for Minister when he was questioned about exceptional the opportunity to meet the Minister this morning and cases on the previous Motion, but he said that it is for his reassurance in this area. Following that, I spoke hard to quantify the amounts. For me, the merits of to a personal adviser—when children leave care they the case are not enough without knowing some of are appointed such an adviser to support them during those figures. It could mean that more is spent than we their transition from care—who said, “It is so helpful are saving by doing this. to be able to go on certain occasions to a professional, a solicitor, to get a letter to get access to welfare and Why do I feel so strongly about this? It is because the right housing for these children”. children are children; they are not adults. Children do not have the capacity to represent themselves or to About one-quarter of children leaving care do so at interpret the thousands of pages of laws and regulations the age of 16. Therefore, we often have very vulnerable that affect them. The question of children’s capacity to young people who really can benefit from expert advocacy. represent themselves is explicitly recognised and provided While I welcome what the Minister has said in terms for in international law. of reassurance, this matter in particular needs to be looked at. He highlighted the use of the exceptional I remind your Lordships’ House that the Children’s funding avenue. The personal adviser said that often it Commissioner for England, Dr Maggie Atkinson, wrote is not a question of going to court but of getting in to the Lord Chancellor to warn that denying children early and getting a good letter to make the local a voice in legal proceedings would be in breach of the authority or other agencies aware of the legal situation European Convention. She wrote: and then things would be done correctly. It would be “Children, by virtue of their age and capacity will not be able to present their case effectively in the majority of proceedings … helpful if the Minister in his response could give an Children’s need for legal aid in civil cases where they are a party assurance that the exceptional funding avenue is easily should not be viewed as ‘exceptional’”. accessible in those circumstances. I strongly support In virtually all these cases a child will be taking my noble friend’s amendment. action against the state, and we do not yet know how the state will begin to act if it cannot be challenged. It Lord Beecham: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady is therefore wrong that the state has discretion on Hamwee, referred to her regret that immigration is not whether it will grant legal aid to a child who is challenging included in the amendment. In fairness to the noble it. Such systems are not synonymous with accountable Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, this amendment is and democratic systems. I ask noble Lords once again in lieu and something has to be different from the to support this Motion. This issue is so important that original amendment. An invidious choice had to be we should ask the other place to reconsider the case of made and one could regret that any one of the categories these children. I beg to move. was to be omitted but one had to be in order for the amendment to be in order. Baroness Hamwee: I shall say a word about one of I am indebted to JustRights for its briefing, which the items that has been left out of this list: immigration. no doubt many noble Lords will have seen. I am sorry that the noble Baroness has decided, for JustRights is made up of some 18 voluntary sector reasons that I understand, not to include it in the organisations. When the Minister refers to extra support list. We know that immigration matters will not be for citizens advice bureaux—which I think she identified within exceptional funding, so that route will not be in particular although she may have been referring to available. Unaccompanied children arriving here the whole sector—of £20 million a year for three may very well initially claim asylum, but a child who years, one should know that Citizens Advice sustained makes an asylum claim that fails and fails again on a loss of £80 million. That sum is for everything and appeal will fall back on an immigration claim. not just for children. Such investment has to be seen in For instance, a child who comes here at, say, the age that context. 1669 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1670

However, as regards these amendments, by my Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, I regret to calculation, taking out the immigration cases, the cost interrupt my noble friend at this time of night, but she of accepting the noble Baroness’s amendment would mentioned the figure of 96 per cent remaining in be of the order of £2.8 million. JustRights estimated scope. The figure of 13 per cent taken out of scope about £5 million to £6 million according to the Ministry’s was just mentioned. I wonder where the reconciliation estimates but that included something like £1 million is between those two figures, because it is significant. for immigration. I beg the pardon of noble Lords but that figure should be more: the net saving should Baroness Northover: It is very straightforward. As I be about £4 million. It points out that the Local have just said, 96 per cent of current spend on cases is Government Association—I declare an interest as a included, and in terms of numbers of cases 13 per cent vice-president of that organisation—estimates that are outside. So 4 per cent of spend is outside, which the removal of legal aid for unaccompanied child represents 13 per cent of the number of cases. asylum seekers in immigration cases, which this The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, flagged amendment does not seek to restore, would cost local up great concern about children in this situation and authorities £10 million. In other words, the cost to one referred to the Children’s Commissioner saying that if element of the public purse will go substantially to this happened, it would breach the ECHR. Indeed, we exceed the savings which would accrue from the agree. I hope my introductory remarks reassured her Government’s package. It is estimated by YouthAccess that this is not in breach, because if there was a failure and the Legal Services Research Centre that greater to provide funding in such a situation that it was a costs will fall on other elements of the public sector, breach, that would be covered either within that 96 per including the welfare system and the National Health cent that I have just mentioned or through the exceptional Service. fund. Any child qualifying for that kind of protection would qualify, under the European Convention on 11 pm Human Rights, for that exceptional funding. I hope I will give a brief indication of the kind of cases that that reassures her. The Children’s Commissioner that will no longer be covered: 280 debt cases; may say that it would be abuse of children’s rights if 90 employment cases; 430 housing cases; 1,330 welfare that were not to be the case but we are saying that that benefit cases; 90 cases involving the police; 110 cases is covered because of that protection. involving education; an unknown number in respect My noble friend Lady Hamwee flagged up the area of clinical negligence, because of course there has now of immigration, and here the child’s interests are generally been this government concession; 300 personal injury represented by the parent or guardian. In most cases cases; and 165 other cases. This is a wide spread of where a child is unaccompanied, the issue is usually an cases, individually costing relatively modest amounts asylum claim and legal aid is of course remaining for if the Government were to accept this amendment. these cases. My noble friend asked what would happen As it stands, 13 per cent of children’s cases will now if the case was not accepted as an asylum claim. In be out of scope. The exceptional funding scheme will these cases unaccompanied children would have a not be sufficient to protect the children covered by this social worker assigned to them, whose role would amendment. Again, for a very small sum of money, a include helping the child access the same advice and substantial number of children, who are among the support as a child permanently settled in the UK. most vulnerable, will be deprived of legal advice and They could also, for example, offer assistance in filling assistance. Your Lordships will note that this briefing in forms, explaining terms and giving them emotional comes from an organisation not of lawyers in private support. As my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace practice but from precisely the sector to which the of Tankerness outlined previously, the Home Office Government look to support people in difficulty in will be working with the Office of the Immigration this and other areas. Services Commissioner on how best to ensure that local authorities can assist children in their care with It is simply unacceptable to withdraw this level immigration applications if necessary. This could, for of support from these vulnerable young people. I hope example, mean exempting local authorities from Office that even at this late stage the Government will of the Immigration Services— reconsider. If not, we will certainly support the noble Baroness should she decide to test the opinion of the House. Baroness Lister of Burtersett: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness but we have gone over this a number of times. I remember the late Lord Newton Baroness Northover: My Lords, I thank noble Lords questioning this issue of using social workers. Social for their very important contributions to this debate. workers are not trained for this kind of work and, as I At the beginning of this discussion, I set out in understand, it would be totally wrong for them to some detail the reasons behind the Government’s position provide legal advice for children in their care. It could on legal aid for children, and that legal aid should create real problems of conflicts of interest. apply to the highest priority cases, which has been at the heart of our reform proposals. I produced a long Baroness Northover: The noble Baroness may be list of where funding is being retained for children as a right about social workers providing legal advice but I result of the application of this principle. The fact that am talking about the kind of support that a social 96 per cent of current spend on cases involving child worker can give to a child in that situation. Often it is claimants will continue reflects the importance that not a matter of specific legal advice but of assisting the Government have placed on that. that child and steering them through the necessary 1671 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[LORDS] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1672

[BARONESS NORTHOVER] I am afraid that I am still not convinced by the procedures. There has been a running theme through a arguments on exceptional funding. When we debated lot of this discussion that it is not necessarily legal the percentages of cases, we learnt that 13 per cent of advice that is required; it may be another form of children’s cases will be out of scope. However, information support, which is where, for example, the CAB may be provided by JustRights shows that, contrary to misleading able to assist. Noble Lords have a lot of experience of government claims, the 5,000 to 6,000 children covered organisations such as these assisting people and we by this amendment will not be protected by the exceptional should not forget that. We are looking at how best to funding scheme. The Ministry of Justice has confirmed ensure that local authorities can assist children in their to JustRights that its figures on the number of children care in the kind of cases that my noble friend has affected already account for those who would receive flagged up. exceptional funding. If children were automatically The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, asked about care entitled to legal aid, the Government would avoid the leavers. I am glad that he was reassured by what my cost of administering children’s applications to the noble friend could tell him. I reiterate that the exceptional scheme, as well as possible delays that would be detrimental funding scheme will ensure the protection of the to children’s welfare. individual’s right to legal aid under the European I am conscious of the late hour. This issue has been Convention on Human Rights, as well as those rights extensively debated in many sessions, but we should to legal aid that are directly enforceable under European ask the other place to think again about the thousands Union law. The scheme will of course encompass of children who will be seriously and negatively affected children leaving care, where they meet the relevant if the amendment does not go through. I beg to move. legal tests. In considering whether exceptional funding should be granted on this basis in an individual case 11.12 pm engaging Article 6 of the ECHR, the director will consider the ability of the client to present their own Division on Motion J1. case, the complexity of the issues, the importance of Contents 100; Not-Contents 154. the issues at stake and all other relevant circumstances. Local authorities also have a range of duties to care Motion J1 disagreed. leavers which will not be affected by the provisions of the Bill. It is late at night but I also recognise the huge Division No. 8 commitment in this area of the noble Earl. If he CONTENTS would like further discussions we are happy to do that. Adonis, L. Harris of Haringey, L. I hope that I have addressed the concerns of most Alli, L. Haworth, L. noble Lords and would like to remind them that 96 per Alton of Liverpool, L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. cent of the current funding remains in place and that Bach, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. the principles of need and vulnerability, which Bassam of Brighton, L. Hereford, Bp. underpinned the reasons for covering the areas that we Bath and Wells, Bp. Hilton of Eggardon, B. have, remain the most important ones. Beecham, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Berkeley, L. Howarth of Newport, L. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, Bilston, L. Hughes of Stretford, B. will be reassured that children who are in need will be Blackstone, B. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. protected and that we will not see the concerns that Boateng, L. Jones, L. she has flagged up come to fruition. On that basis, I Bradley, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. hope the noble Baroness will withdraw her Motion. Brookman, L. Judd, L. Browne of Ladyton, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Campbell-Savours, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Baroness Grey-Thompson: I thank the noble Baroness, Clancarty, E. Liddle, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Lister of Burtersett, B. Lady Northover, for her response and all other noble Collins of Highbury, L. Listowel, E. Lords who have contributed this evening. Corston, B. Low of Dalston, L. In my opening speech I did not mention clinical Craigavon, V. McAvoy, L. negligence because the issue had been eloquently argued Davies of Stamford, L. McFall of Alcluith, L. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, McIntosh of Hudnall, B. in the previous Motion by the noble Lord, Lord B. McKenzie of Luton, L. Cormack, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. Desai, L. Mallalieu, B. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, raised the important Dixon, L. Martin of Springburn, L. issue of children in care and children leaving care. Donaghy, B. Masham of Ilton, B. Drake, B. Massey of Darwen, B. However, this will raise more issues about where the Dubs, L. Maxton, L. costs will move to. The hope that local authorities will Evans of Parkside, L. Morgan of Ely, B. pick up the pieces concerning this group of children in Farrington of Ribbleton, B. O’Loan, B. care or leaving care is naive. Local authorities are Faulkner of Worcester, L. Pannick, L. already under huge amounts of pressure, and pushing Finlay of Llandaff, B. Pitkeathley, B. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. the costs—and potentially greater costs—on them will Gale, B. Prescott, L. not help the children who we want to see receive this Goldsmith, L. Prosser, B. help. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Quin, B. I am also deeply uncomfortable about the role of Gould of Potternewton, B. Ramsbotham, L. Grantchester, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. the litigation friend and the ability of children to Grenfell, L. Rosser, L. access an appropriate person who is able to help them Grey-Thompson, B. [Teller] Royall of Blaisdon, B. through very difficult times. Hanworth, V. Sawyer, L. 1673 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment[23 APRIL 2012] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 1674

Scotland of Asthal, B. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Sherlock, B. Turnberg, L. Kramer, B. Sassoon, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Wall of New Barnet, B. Lamont of Lerwick, L. Scott of Needham Market, B. Smith of Finsbury, L. Lawson of Blaby, L. Seccombe, B. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Soley, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Selborne, E. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Whitaker, B. Lexden, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Wigley, L. Lingfield, L. Selsdon, L. Thornton, B. Winston, L. Liverpool, E. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Tonge, B. Young of Hornsey, B. Loomba, L. Sharkey, L. Touhig, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Luke, L. Sharp of Guildford, B. MacGregor of Pulham Sharples, B. Market, L. Sheikh, L. NOT CONTENTS McNally, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. Addington, L. Doocey, B. Maddock, B. Shipley, L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Dykes, L. Magan of Castletown, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Alderdice, L. Eccles, V. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Skelmersdale, L. Allan of Hallam, L. Eden of Winton, L. L. Spicer, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Elton, L. Marland, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Empey, L. Marlesford, L. Stephen, L. Hamdon, L. Falkner of Margravine, B. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Stewartby, L. Ashton of Hyde, L. Faulks, L. Montrose, D. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Astor of Hever, L. Fookes, B. Morris of Bolton, B. Stowell of Beeston, B. Attlee, E. Framlingham, L. Neville-Jones, B. Strasburger, L. Barker, B. Freud, L. Newby, L. Taylor of Goss Moor, L. Bates, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Newlove, B. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Berridge, B. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Noakes, B. Teverson, L. Bew, L. Gardner of Parkes, B. Northbrook, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Black of Brentwood, L. Geddes, L. Northover, B. Tope, L. Blencathra, L. German, L. Norton of Louth, L. True, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Glendonbrook, L. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, Tugendhat, L. B. Gold, L. L. Tyler, L. Bridgeman, V. Goodlad, L. O’Cathain, B. Tyler of Enfield, B. Brinton, B. Grade of Yarmouth, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Verma, B. Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Green of Hurstpierpoint, L. Parminter, B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Hamwee, B. Perry of Southwark, B. Wallace of Tankerness, L. L. Hanham, B. Popat, L. Walmsley, B. Brougham and Vaux, L. Henley, L. Randerson, B. Wasserman, L. Browne of Belmont, L. Higgins, L. Rawlings, B. Wei, L. Burnett, L. Hill of Oareford, L. Razzall, L. Wheatcroft, B. Byford, B. Home, E. Rennard, L. Wilcox, B. Cathcart, E. Hooper, B. Ribeiro, L. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Cavendish of Furness, L. Howard of Lympne, L. Risby, L. Younger of Leckie, V. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Howard of Rising, L. Clement-Jones, L. Howe, E. Cope of Berkeley, L. Howell of Guildford, L. 11.22 pm Cotter, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. De Mauley, L. Inglewood, L. Motion J agreed. Deben, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Dholakia, L. Jenkin of Roding, L. House adjourned at 11.23 pm. Dixon-Smith, L. Jolly, B. Dobbs, L. King of Bridgwater, L.

GC 241 Arrangement of Business[23 APRIL 2012] Health: Pancreatic Cancer GC 242

which shrank his tumour to the point where it could Grand Committee be operated on. He is convinced that without that operation he would have died. Monday, 23 April 2012. As I prepared for this debate, I was struck by the number of people who have had direct experience of Arrangement of Business friends or relatives falling victim to pancreatic cancer. Announcement When I looked at the statistics relating to it, I found them shocking. There are more than 8,000 diagnoses of pancreatic cancer in the UK each year, which 3.30 pm represents less than 3 per cent of total cancer diagnoses. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness However, it accounts for nearly 5 per cent of deaths, McIntosh of Hudnall): My Lords, Members will wish and the length of time between diagnosis and death is to be made aware—if they are not already—that the typically less than six months. More than 80 per cent noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, is not of patients will die within a year of diagnosis. Three-year able to attend today and has withdrawn her Question survival rates in the UK range from 3.6 per cent to for Short Debate, which would have been the third 11.9 per cent, and five-year rates from 0 per cent to item of business today. Members may also wish to be 10.4 per cent. Only 3 per cent of patients survive for made aware that the wording of the Question for five years. The figures have hardly improved since the Short Debate tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady 1970s, yet countries such as the USA, Canada and Gardner of Parkes, was changed after House of Lords Australia achieve five-year survival rates that are twice business was last printed but appears correctly on as high, and a number of European countries also do today’s Order Paper. Finally, I remind the Committee better than the UK. Furthermore, there are significant that in the quite likely event of there being Divisions in variations in outcomes between different UK regions. the Chamber, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes London and the south-east have better results than the from the sounding of the Division Bell. north of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Of equal concern is that the 2010 NHS National Health: Pancreatic Cancer Cancer Patient Experience Survey showed that pancreatic Question for Short Debate cancer patients had a poorer NHS experience than most other cancer sufferers, for example in the information 3.31 pm they received, in the management of their pain, and in the confidence they had in their medical teams. One Asked By Lord Aberdare aspect of this is the support available from clinical To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps nurse specialists. Although most pancreatic cancer they will take to improve both the quality of care patients surveyed said that they had access to a clinical and the overall survival rates for pancreatic cancer nurse specialist, research by Pancreatic Cancer UK in the United Kingdom. found that those specialist nurses were concerned that they were not receiving the support and resources they needed to do their job well. Moreover, although it is Lord Aberdare: My Lords, pancreatic cancer is in estimated that some 20 per cent of pancreatic cancer some respects the poor relation of major cancers. It is patients may be suitable candidates for surgery, which the fifth most deadly cancer in the UK after breast, is recognised as the only effective way of tackling the lung, bowel and prostate cancer. However, its survival disease, only about 10 per cent receive it. Noble Lords rate, unlike those of the other cancers, has hardly may share my view that these figures are deeply improved in the past 40 years. In addition, there is disappointing and raise serious questions about whether evidence that pancreatic cancer patients often do not we in the UK cannot and should not do considerably receive an adequate standard of care. Pancreatic cancer better for those unlucky enough to contract this dreadful is all too often seen as a death sentence, leaving little or disease. nothing to hope for. I sought this debate to try to focus on ways in which the Government, working with There are three issues I should like to highlight as others concerned, might help to bring some hope— needing to be tackled. The first is to increase research something more to live for—to sufferers from pancreatic into the many aspects of the disease which are not yet cancer and their friends and families. adequately understood. Despite accounting for 5 per cent of cancer deaths, pancreatic cancer attracts only My concern about the issue is purely that of a 1 per cent of cancer research funding. Any prospect of layman without medical or specialist expertise. Two improving survival rates must start from better data friends of mine died from pancreatic cancer in recent about what causes or contributes to the disease and years. One was a business acquaintance who battled what sorts of treatment are effective in tackling it. with it for several years, the other a friend who died Experience, for example with breast cancer, has clearly within weeks of diagnosis. At least three others lost shown that research does lead to improved survival parents at a relatively early age, while another currently rates. has the disease and is doing his utmost to beat the odds. He has been lucky enough to be treated privately The second issue is to find ways of diagnosing at the Royal Marsden Hospital. Through the efforts of pancreatic cancer earlier. There are no straightforward his medical team he was given a drug called Folfirinox, ways of recognising the disease, and many weeks or which is not approved for this purpose by NICE but months often pass before a firm diagnosis is reached, GC 243 Health: Pancreatic Cancer[LORDS] Health: Pancreatic Cancer GC 244

[LORD ABERDARE] 3.38 pm with almost 30 per cent of patients visiting their GPs The Earl of Selborne: My Lords, every Member of five times or more. However, the prospects for successful the Committee will be enormously grateful to the treatment—or even for high-quality palliative care— noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for making this debate depend largely on how soon the disease is identified. possible. I am sure we all congratulate him on his In addition, many patients do not have the chance to speech. Pancreatic cancer is indeed the poor relation. participate in clinical trials for new treatments because It is disheartening to find what little progress has been their condition is already too far advanced by the time made over 40 years compared to the great successes in they are diagnosed. most other cancers. The third issue I want to raise is the quality of care I shall confine my remarks to the need for earlier for all pancreatic cancer patients, which needs to be diagnosis and try to explore some of the reasons why improved, for example through better information for it is difficult to achieve at the moment. Pancreatic patients and their carers, better co-ordination between cancer is usually diagnosed late in its progress, making those involved in treatment, better support from clinical surgery very much harder to accomplish. With earlier nurse specialists and a more consistent service across diagnosis, there is a small chance that the progress of the UK. the disease can be slowed down, thereby prolonging life and there is a possibility that the patient may be fit I know that the Government share my concern enough to take part in clinical trials. Again, with later about the need to improve the experience of pancreatic diagnosis sometimes clinical trials simply are not an cancer sufferers. Paul Burstow, a Minister in the option. Department of Health, has met Pancreatic Cancer UK and indicated his support for its Campaign for The difficulties of early diagnosis cannot be denied, Hope, and I welcome the fact that two pancreatic though. Like the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, I stress cancer-related research studies are to be conducted that I am a complete layman, but I recognise that there under the aegis of the National Cancer Intelligence are no simple tests and indeed that many patients do Network. not experience symptoms until the cancer has spread from the pancreas. Sometimes, however, families are I very much look forward to the Minister’s response able to recognise with hindsight that a range of symptoms to this debate, as well as to the contributions and had manifested themselves which, had they led to a suggestions of other noble Lords who have much diagnosis some time earlier than was eventually the greater experience and knowledge of this issue than I case, might have given some more hope for treatment do, but who none the less get three minutes as opposed and trials. Often this manifested itself in more frequent to my 10. I am sure they will do much better with it. visits to GPs and to hospital before potentially triggering Government, of course, cannot provide all the answers; an emergency presentation like jaundice. but in partnership with other organisations and interested The barriers to early detection have been well set parties—the medical profession, research bodies, funders, out by Pancreatic Cancer UK’s Study for Survival. Its charities, carers, and of course patients themselves informative summary notes that GPs themselves record and their families and friends—they can offer that there is a lack of sufficient information and encouragement, support and resources. knowledge about pancreatic cancer’s signs and symptoms, a lack of sufficient formal evidence relating to them to In particular, I ask the Minister to answer four support the development of effective referral guidelines, questions. First, will he look into conducting a full and a lack of access to risk assessment tools to support audit of current pancreatic cancer services, to assess GPs to identify patients with a pancreatic cancer why different regions currently achieve different results, concern. and what structures and systems work best to provide pancreatic cancer patients with an optimum quality of We need to develop tools, such as a risk assessment care? tool, and to improve access to diagnostics. Doctors should always include the possibility of pancreatic Secondly, will he ensure that pancreatic cancer is cancer in their index of suspicion when presented with firmly included in the national awareness and early a patient with symptoms that do not seem to add up, diagnosis initiative to assess what can be done to and should always be ready to refer the patient to a shorten the time to diagnosis? consultant for investigation in such circumstances and without delay. Thirdly, what steps will he take to increase the amount of funding going to pancreatic cancer, both for research and care, in line with its significance 3.40 pm among major cancers in the UK? Finally, how will he seek to improve the experience of care for pancreatic Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe: My Lords, I, too, cancer patients? thank the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for securing this debate and for his thoughtful and compassionate Progress on other major cancers has shown how speech. It is clear that I am not the only speaker today much improvement can be achieved through focused who has had the harrowing experience of seeing a efforts to raise awareness and improve diagnosis and beloved family member or friend suffer from this treatment. Surely we can also improve the outlook for lethal disease. My sister-in-law died of pancreatic cancer, pancreatic cancer sufferers and give them some real and her story mirrors much that has been said today. hope for longer lives, better care and greater fulfilment She was prescribed pills for depression and had a late in the time that remains to them. diagnosis, first of pancreatitis, which was not considered GC 245 Health: Pancreatic Cancer[23 APRIL 2012] Health: Pancreatic Cancer GC 246 serious, and only much later one of pancreatic cancer. people will be living with and beyond cancer. That There was little understanding from her GP—not number is growing. This is real cause for celebration, indifference, but perplexity over the symptoms of a but sadly not yet for those with pancreatic cancer. It disease that we know GPs will see as a new case has one of the highest incident-to-mortality ratios for perhaps only once every five years. any disease. The problems of difficult and late diagnosis, The statistics speak for themselves and I will not leading to late treatment—often too late for surgery—have repeat them, except to remind the Committee that this been well outlined by noble Lords. is the fifth most common cause of cancer death in the The coalition Government’s document, Improving UK, yet it receives less than 1 per cent of overall Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer, was published on cancer research funding. For the 8,000 people a year 12 January this year. It set out a range of actions to in the UK who are diagnosed with the disease—that improve cancer outcomes. Care Minister Paul Burstow is 22 people for every day of the year—the outlook is said that the strategy, grim indeed. Figures from the excellent body Pancreatic “sets out our ambition to bring England’s cancer survival rates in Cancer UK suggest that these patients have the least line with the European average by 2014-15”. satisfactory health service experience of all patients He added that this, diagnosed with major cancers. Its Campaign for Hope “shows that if England’s survival rates were as good as the best in has two ambitious goals: to double survival rates Europe we would save 10,000 additional lives per year”.—[Official within the next five years and to move the experience Report, Commons, 7/11/11; col. 139W.] of pancreatic cancer patients from being one of the He said that the Government estimated that of worst to one of the best. those additional lives saved, 75 would be those with How can we do that? We need, as others have said, pancreatic cancer. That is all to be welcomed, but to increase early diagnosis; we need greater investment 2014-15 is only three years away and we therefore need in research and effective treatments; and we must to understand what actions are being taken. improve the quality of patient experience for those It is tragic that at the moment in England there is with pancreatic cancer. A first step would be, as the little hope for most patients with pancreatic cancer. noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, said, to place it firmly on The Government have acknowledged difficulties in the national awareness and early diagnosis initiative late diagnosis, the need to consider biomarkers for agenda, and I would like the Minister’s response on pancreatic cancer because there are often no symptoms that. A review would look at, for example, how we can until late stages, the 2005 NICE guidelines for urgent develop and provide risk assessment tools for GPs. referral of patients, the high incidence of late decisions Then we need to be sure that any new commissioning around surgery—often too late—and some suggestion arrangements and guidelines provide GPs with sufficient of reluctance on behalf of clinicians to recommend information about pancreatic cancer and referral criteria. surgery. Will the Minister confirm that this cancer will receive In his summing up, I should be grateful if my noble the attention that it deserves within the Government’s friend the Minister could address three issues. What Improving Outcomes strategy for cancer? mechanisms and levers are there within the Health We need a significant increase in research investment, and Social Care Act that will be able to reassure carers and we need to increase clinical trials. What steps are and those who have pancreatic cancer that these the Government taking to ensure that clinicians and aspirations can be met? What role does value-based patients are fully informed about all available pancreatic pricing have in the long term? What engagement is cancer clinical trials? there between the department and royal colleges to Finally, we need to improve the experience of patients. address the deficits in doctor training and continuing I know that specialist nursing support—clinical nurse professional development in this area that is so particularly specialists—can make a huge difference to the experience fraught? of pancreatic cancer patients, but access to these amazing Long-term research needs to be supported and individuals is limited. Does the Minister recognise the accelerated and, on a brighter note, a few weeks ago, vital role these CNS staff play in helping to improve Kirtana Vallabhaneni, aged 17, from West Kirby, beat the experience of patients, and can he offer any assurance 360 other entrants to be awarded Young Scientist of about future provision? the Year for 2012 for her work as part of the University There is no excuse for patients in the UK faring so of Liverpool’s research projects. She—at 17—was working much worse than those in other countries. We must on identifying the harmful cells that cause pancreatic improve survival rates and the quality of care—and of cancer. We need many more like Kirtana to increase life—for those with this terrible form of cancer. the level of care and survival rates that are so deserved by those with pancreatic cancer and their carers.

3.45 pm 3.49 pm Baroness Jolly: My Lords, I join with others in Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I congratulate extending thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, my noble friend on securing this important debate and for securing this debate, and to Cancer Research UK I declare my interest as CEO of a cancer research and Pancreatic Cancer UK for such excellent briefings. charity. I am also proud to be a patron of Pancreatic One in three of us will get cancer in our lifetime, Cancer UK, and I am particularly proud of its work in and that diagnosis, for the most part, is quite its Campaign for Hope, which is a very important straightforward. The past decade has seen phenomenal initiative. As a vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary increases in survival rates, such that fairly soon 2 million Group on Cancer, I wanted to try to put together GC 247 Health: Pancreatic Cancer[LORDS] Health: Pancreatic Cancer GC 248

[BARONESS MORGAN OF DREFELIN] At a time when there have been so many dramatic some of those interests and to talk about the work that improvements in the cure and treatment of cancer, it is the all-party group is doing that is important to patients sad and very alarming that there have been little to no with pancreatic cancer. such improvements as regards pancreatic cancer. As As we have heard, people with rare cancers are my noble friend mentioned in his alarming statistics, often diagnosed later and suffer poorer outcomes than the situation has not improved for almost 40 years. those with more common cancers. I should like to It is also very concerning that the National Cancer thank the Government for listening to the all-party Patient Experience Survey in 2010 showed that pancreatic group and others for including one-year cancer survival cancer patients have some of the worst overall experiences rates alongside five-year rates for breast, lung and of all cancer patients. In my allotted few minutes colorectal cancer in the NHS outcomes framework. today, I want to touch on just two issues: diagnostics We believe this focus on the NHS implementing and research. There is currently no screening test for interventions that improve early diagnosis—which is pancreatic cancer and, given that we now know that key to better survival—is important. However, we the disease takes 10 to 15 years to progress and that must not forget that 53 per cent of people who die there is significantly more understanding of the biological from cancer in the UK have a less common cancer and genetic makeup of the disease, what assurance such as pancreatic cancer. We have to ensure that can the Government give that more funding will be improvements are made across the board and that the made available to provide this effective test? gap in survival between patients with less and more Secondly, I understand that most drug trials for common cancers does not widen but starts to narrow. pancreatic cancer in the UK are currently focused on This is why the All-Party Parliamentary Group on testing combinations of existing drugs. Given that Cancer has called for the one-year and five-year indicators there have been significant developments in the in the NHS outcomes framework to be expanded to understanding of the biology of pancreatic cancer in cover all types of cancer. I would be grateful if the recent years, what actions can the Government take to Minister could provide an update on what consideration ensure that more trials are conducted on new drugs his department has given to broadening out these which build on the existing research? Essentially, we indicators to include less common cancers and pancreatic need a far more radical and creative approach to cancer in particular. pancreatic cancer. Time restricts me from speaking on I would like to make a couple of points on patient the scope for more surgery, but I cannot understand experience. We know that the experience of cancer why, when 20 per cent of patients are eligible for patients must improve, particularly for those with surgery, only 10 per cent have the opportunity of pancreatic cancer. The 2010 National Cancer Patient having it. Experience Survey revealed that patients with rarer In conclusion, I applaud the tremendous work of cancers had less positive views of their treatment than the charity Pancreatic Cancer UK and its Campaign those with more common cancers. Pancreatic Cancer for Hope. I sincerely hope that today the Minister can UK has today illustrated this further through its briefing give us all some encouragement that more financial for this debate. If we are to encourage commissioners research and support can be given to address this to take action to improve this situation, the National important campaign so that the UK can achieve its Cancer Patient Experience Survey must be conducted potential for doubling survival rates. annually and be included as an indicator in both the NHS outcomes framework and the commissioning 3.55 pm outcomes framework. It would be helpful to know what progress has been made towards this. Lord Ribeiro: My Lords, I declare an interest as a retired general surgeon who previously operated on As we all know, cancer networks have been extremely patients with pancreatic cancer but was wise enough important in driving up standards in the last few years. to give way to more specialised surgeons of this condition. Once the reforms are implemented, CCGs will be responsible for non-specialised cancer services while I support the development of pancreatic cancer the NHS Commissioning Board will undertake specialised centres, as suggested by the noble Baroness, Lady commissioning. For patients with rarer conditions, Morgan of Drefelin, because these 28 specialist centres such as pancreatic cancer, this means that some parts in the British Isles are endeavouring to improve the of their care pathway will be commissioned locally standard of care for patients with pancreatic cancer. while others will be commissioned nationally. Cancer However, there are marked variations between the networks play an important role in overseeing centres, and their outcomes should be the subject of a commissioning plans and ensuring that seamless care national audit. pathways for patients are delivered. Could the Minister I join others in thanking the noble Lord, Lord update us on the Government’s plans for cancer networks? Aberdare, for bringing this debate, in this short time, I thank my noble friend Lord Aberdare once again to highlight some of the problems that exist. The for securing this important debate and Pancreatic cardiothoracic surgeons have shown the way by their Cancer UK for its vital work. national survey, over many years, of cardiac surgery outcomes. For the second year they have published the National Thoracic Surgery Activity and Outcomes report. 3.53 pm It is important that all specialist associations take part Lord St John of Bletso: My Lords, I am grateful to in an audit so that it is possible to compare the my noble friend Lord Aberdare for giving us the outcomes between different centres and, frankly, highlight opportunity for this important and very topical debate. the ones that are good enough and those that are not GC 249 Health: Pancreatic Cancer[23 APRIL 2012] Health: Pancreatic Cancer GC 250 good enough, so that at least those who know that analogue of the market mechanism in operation when they fall outside a 95 per cent confidence limit will it comes to the allocation of research funds. That is improve their practice, find out how to do it better, or not a criticism of what happens in a general sense; I perhaps desist, as I did. point out only that relying on the normal processes of The argument for centres undertaking large-volume allocating research funding is unlikely to result in surgery is now accepted, but this needs to be underpinned much of an increase for the rarer types of cancer, such by proven expertise, and I would say it takes years to as pancreatic cancer, in any reasonable timeframe. actually develop that, within teams, to come up to the That is why I ask the Minister to see if there is many standards. It also needs to be underpinned by good way of bypassing or supplementing the normal process research. Resection rates as high as 20 per cent, with of funding allocation and to see if there is any way of 2 per cent mortality, are achievable in some centres, directly intervening to generate a substantial and urgent while others report mortality of 14 per cent. increase in funding. I realise that this is not easy, and it A German study found that cancer cells in the liver is consistent with the Government’s commitment to and bone marrow appear in some 36 per cent to 76 per improve the treatment of cancer in the UK and bringing cent of patients. Undetected, these patients may well our survival rates up to those enjoyed by many advanced be subject to surgery, only to develop recurrent disease countries. later. Does my noble friend the Minister acknowledge I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for that we need greater investment in research beyond the giving us the opportunity to debate this vital issue. current 1 per cent of overall cancer research funding, I hope that the Minister may be able to give sympathetic as suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare? consideration to the proposals that I have put forward. Exciting new modalities involving genomics, gene therapy and immunotherapy to complement neoadjuvant 4.01 pm therapy are in development and need support. Let us Lord Kakkar: My Lords, I join other noble Lords in be clear: pancreatic cancer is a difficult and complex congratulating my noble friend Lord Aberdare on cancer. Unlike the one-stop-shop diagnosis that can having secured this important debate. In so doing, I be achieved for breast cancer—which, by the way, is a declare my own interest as a practising surgeon and very visible and obvious cancer—it can take up to six professor of surgery at University College London, weeks to investigate and diagnose pancreatic cancer in where we have an important interest in the management patients prior to surgery. of pancreatic cancer. Commissioners of health need to understand that I shall focus on four issues in the time available. The this is not a cheap cancer, and they need to negotiate first is to explore the problem of the diagnosis of with the providers of healthcare and make sure that pancreatic cancer in primary care. As we have heard the complexity and cost are taken into account when from noble Lords, nearly 30 per cent of patients have managing pancreatic cancer. three or more consultations with their primary care I hope that my noble friend the Minister will use the practitioner before a putative diagnosis of pancreatic current anti-smoking campaign to draw attention to cancer is made, along with referral to a specialist for the 70 per cent increased risk of developing pancreatic further investigation. Are there any opportunities, or cancer among smokers as compared to non-smokers. have arrangements been made or strategies considered, for trying to improve the ability of those practitioners in primary care to be sensitive to the rather non-specific 3.59 pm symptoms attending the early presentation of pancreatic Lord Sharkey: My Lords, in preparing for this cancer, so that they might improve diagnostic strategies? debate, three things struck me with a special force; the The second issue relates to specialist treatment. first was that 25 per cent of pancreatic cancer patients Improving the outcomes guidance, which has driven experience symptoms up to 12 months prior to diagnosis; the cancer strategy over the past 10 years, has provided the second was that nearly 30 per cent of pancreatic an emphasis on a focus on the management of patients cancer patients visited their GP five or more times with pancreatic cancer in specialist centres. What before diagnosis; the third was the alarming fact that proportion of patients with pancreatic cancer is the disease attracts less than 1 per cent of overall being managed in specialist centres with specialist cancer research funding. With regard to the first and multidisciplinary teams, comprising hepatobiliary surgeons second areas, this seems to me to suggest very strongly with expertise in pancreatic cancer, specialist radiologists indeed the need for better information to be made and specialist medical oncologists, who could well be available both to the doctor and to the patient. Will in a position to provide the best care for patients once the Minister give urgent consideration to putting in diagnosed, in terms of both understanding how later- place quickly a pilot campaign whose objectives are to presenting disease might be downstaged and of course increase awareness among both patients and doctors providing the best curative surgical or palliative of the possible symptoms of this disease? I know that radiological procedures for these patients? the Government have done that very successfully for The third area is innovation. YourLordships’ Science bowel cancer. and Technology Select Committee, chaired by my The third area is the question of the very low level noble friend Lord Patel, presented an interesting report of research funding for the disease. I realise that it is in 2008 on genomic medicine, which was widely not a simple matter to increase the funding for one appreciated. What arrangements have been made about particular disease, no matter how pressing the case the application of genomic and personalised medicine may be. In many ways this is because there is an in the area of pancreatic cancer, particularly with GC 251 Health: Pancreatic Cancer[LORDS] Health: Pancreatic Cancer GC 252

[LORD KAKKAR] This needs to be explained, because we need experienced reference to the chief executive of the NHS’s recently people, particularly surgeons, to look after these patients. published review on innovation and the putative Comments have been made about biomarkers and it is development of academic health science networks? true that biomarkers are a way to screening. However, Will these networks provide an opportunity for the we are a long way from achieving that. Research is early adoption of innovation that might improve both being done in this country and in the United States to the diagnosis of pancreatic cancer and, potentially, the identify a biomarker and to identify genetic variations development of biomarkers or other personalised medicine and genetic associations of at-risk patients. There is screening tools to improve therapeutic options tailor-made currently funding for research—at Cardiff University for individual patients to improve their outcomes with there is a programme grant for research on understanding pancreatic cancer? the diagnosis and the variations in results. How many trials are open in the National Cancer The timing of the debate has gone wrong—the Research Institute’s portfolio of clinical trials specifically clock indicates that I have been speaking for only dealing with novel therapies in phase 2 or phase 3 for .07 minutes. That is good—I have time left. I was pancreatic cancer? What impact has the European going to finish by pressing the Minister to look further Clinical Trials Directive, adopted some years ago, had at providing a full audit of pancreatic cancer services— on participation with regard to trials in pancreatic along the lines of the Healthcare Quality Commission’s cancer? We know generally that, in our country, national bowel cancer audit—not just focusing on participation in clinical trials has fallen from 6 per surgery but on all aspects of pancreatic cancers. Such cent prior to adoption of the European Clinical Trials an audit will also help better commissioning in the Directive—that is 6 per cent of all patients in the future and I hope the Minister will address it. world participating in clinical trials coming from our country prior to adoption of the directive—to only 4.09 pm 1.4 per cent last year. Has the Clinical Trials Directive impacted on clinical research in pancreatic cancer? Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I am grateful to the Committee for allowing me to speak in the gap. In this important debate, there has been much focus 4.05 pm on research. However, results will take years to come through. Work on early diagnosis and necessary training Lord Patel: My Lords, I want to report that the will also take time. There are patients now with an All-Party Parliamentary Group on Pancreatic Cancer advanced form of the disease, and there are patients is in the process of being set up, supported by Pancreatic whose disease will recur even when they have gone Cancer UK. It now has the necessary qualifying members through treatments that put it in abeyance. Under the and will hold its first meeting soon. I hope that noble new contracting process, how will we ensure that Lords present here will join it. patients with pancreatic cancer have access to anaesthetic I had a speech prepared, but I have changed my intervention services for nerve blocks such as celiac mind because I can tell your Lordships the story of my blocks? How will we ensure that clinical nurse specialists noble friend Lord Turnberg, who is sitting on my left. work seven rather than five days a week, and that they He is reported to be a survivor of pancreatic cancer work as part of multi-professional teams? Without but he is not. His pancreatic cancer was diagnosed in expert medical back-up, the complexity of pancreatic 1997 and he was operated on. I have his permission to cancer symptoms is difficult to deal with. How will we tell you this story, so I am not breaching any patient ensure anticipatory prescribing to reduce the complications confidentiality. It subsequently turned out that it was of pancreatic cancer such as thromboembolism that acute pancreatitis, which his colleagues had diagnosed sometimes kill patients before the cancer itself? Patients as pancreatic cancer. Although that was 1997, it highlights should also have access at all times of the day and how difficult this disease is to diagnose. Nothing has night to drugs for pain relief and to combat vomiting. changed and many noble Lords have commented on this. We need to improve our ability to diagnose pancreatic 4.10 pm cancer. I also have personal stories of my own family: my mother and mother-in-law died of pancreatic cancer. Baroness Thornton: My Lords, as ever with these Both faced their disease with courage. My mother was debates, particularly when we are disciplined by having operated on and died a few days later. The surgeon a short time, I find that most of the questions that the was well meaning but did not have the competence to Minister needs to address have been asked—some of do the complicated surgery.I once watched my professorial them more than once, and certainly much more ably colleague operate with a laparoscope for 18 hours. As than I can manage. I start by thanking Pancreatic the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, and the noble Lord, Cancer UK for its excellent briefings, and also the Lord Kakkar, have pointed out, it requires a great deal Library for the excellent and detailed briefing that it of stamina, courage and tenacity to do surgery for produced for this debate. 18 hours through a laparoscope. I will focus on two issues. One is a catch-up on I was impressed by some aspects of Pancreatic research that I know was published last December and Cancer UK’s survey. I would like to highlight three January and was featured by the BBC and at least one issues. Nearly 25 per cent of pancreatic patients experience national newspaper. I will then ask a question about symptoms for up to 12 months prior to diagnosis. research that will amplify things. The research linked That is a difficulty in diagnosis. Survival rates are poor processed meat to pancreatic cancer. It was done by but, as has been pointed out, there are, importantly, researchers in Sweden. The World Cancer Research great variations in survival rates across cancer networks. Fund joined in the discussion on that research, which GC 253 Health: Pancreatic Cancer[23 APRIL 2012] Health: Pancreatic Cancer GC 254 focused on eating red and processed meat. We knew Professor Willie Hamilton is currently developing a that this had been linked to bowel cancer, but the risk assessment tool to support GPs in the investigation study published in the British Journal of Cancer analysed of pancreatic cancer. data from 11 trials and 6,643 patients with pancreatic cancer. It found that eating processed meat increased The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, asked if the National the risk of pancreatic cancer. The risk increased by Awareness and Early Diagnosis Initiative could do 19 per cent for every 50 grams that someone added to some specific work on pancreatic cancer. Our cancer their daily diet. Eating an extra 100 grams increased outcome strategy says that we will work with a number the risk by 38 per cent. of charities linked with rarer cancers. There have Professor Larsson, who conducted the research, already been meetings with several, including Pancreatic made the obvious point that pancreatic cancer has Cancer UK and Pancreatic Cancer Action, to see what poor survival rates, so as well as diagnosing it early it more might be done to diagnose these cancers earlier. is important to understand what increases the risk of The Government’s future work on pancreatic cancer the disease. Has any further research being done on will be informed by what we learn from those charities. the issue of the link with diet? We know that smoking, I am aware also that Pancreatic Cancer UK is too, is a risk factor. I am thinking of the responsibility hosting an early diagnosis workshop in June. The campaign on food and diet that the Government have National Cancer Director, Professor Sir Mike Richards, been running. Are they using those statistics as part of my honourable friend the Minister of State for Care the campaign on what people should or should not Services and officials from NAEDI will be attending. eat? The workshop will be looking at practical steps that My second question is about research. We know can be taken to help GPs and secondary care health that there is a commitment to further investment in professionals diagnose pancreatic cancer at the earliest research into pancreatic cancer. However, I am aware stage possible. We look forward to receiving the findings that unless the research is properly commissioned, of the workshop. even if the funding is there, the money will not be spent in a timely fashion. My question echoes that of My noble friend Lord Sharkey and the noble Baroness, other noble Lords: are the Government increasing the Lady Warwick, talked about the possibility of awareness spend on research in this area? How will they ensure campaigns. Decisions on campaign work in this financial that we develop the kind of critical mass of UK talent year will be based on the evidence from the pilots that that will enable us to deliver world-class, groundbreaking we have run regionally in 2011-12. To further address research into pancreatic cancer, as we have done in the need to improve awareness of rarer cancers such as other areas? pancreatic cancer, consideration is being given to piloting a symptom-based awareness campaign based on covering multiple cancers. We are talking with stakeholders, 4.14 pm including rarer cancer charities, about that work. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, I thank the noble Once pancreatic cancer is diagnosed, patients need Lord, Lord Aberdare, for tabling today’s debate. I am to have access to appropriate and consistent treatment, aware that this is a very important issue for him and for delivered to a high standard, across the board. I am countless other people and families across the country. aware that there are variations in survival rates across The coalition Government’s cancer outcome strategy the country and across cancer networks. Pancreatic was published in January last year. It sets out how we Cancer UK’s Study for Survival 2011 confirmed that. will make sure that people with any form of cancer get Quite simply, it is not good enough and it must change. care and outcomes as good as anywhere in the world, That is why we are providing data to help the National whoever they are and wherever in the country they live. Health Service tackle regional variations. For example, the National Cancer Intelligence Network has made Probably the most important factor affecting the available data collections on survival rates and surgical survival rates of any cancer is the speed with which it resection rates across a range of cancers, including is diagnosed—I think all noble Lords mentioned that pancreatic cancer. These data will allow providers and issue. We have addressed that in the cancer outcome commissioners to benchmark their services and outcomes strategy, and that is why we are supporting the strategy against one another and to identify where improvements with more than £450 million over four years. This need to be made. They will then be able to channel funding is part of more than £750 million of additional resources into improving services in the areas that funding for cancer over the spending review period to need to be brought up to an acceptable standard. support our ambitions for cancer care. On top of that, or course, a range of support is already available to The noble Lord asked whether we would develop help GPs assess when it is appropriate to refer patients an audit of pancreatic service and care. The National for investigations for suspected cancer, such as a NICE Advisory Group on Clinical Audit and Enquiries recently referral guideline. However, we can do more to support considered a proposal for an audit of pancreatic cancer them. as part of the National Clinical Audit and Patient Cancer Research UK and the National Cancer Outcomes Programme. I understand that the proposal Action Team are working together to develop a new was not recommended for inclusion in the national GP engagement programme for the coming years that programme. However, the advisory group suggested will allow them to increase awareness and improve that elements of the proposal could be taken forward training. This will all help diagnose cancer cases earlier. as part of the existing bowel cancer audit when this I can say to my noble friend Lord Selborne that is retendered in 2012. I will ensure that this option is GC 255 Health: Pancreatic Cancer[LORDS] Health: Pancreatic Cancer GC 256

[EARL HOWE] The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, referred to new considered when the department reviews the existing cancer drugs. Our priority is to ensure that cancer arrangements for the bowel cancer audit later this patients get the drugs that their doctors believe are year. best for them. We have delivered on our promise in the coalition agreement for a cancer drugs fund, with In Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer—First £650 million, all told, devoted to it. This funding has Annual Report, published in December last year, we so far helped more than 12,500 cancer patients in said that continuing to provide the NHS with England to access the cancer drugs that their clinicians benchmarked data, recommend. We have listened to feedback on the first “as a lever for improvements”, year of the fund’s operation, and today are publishing is a priority for 2012. new guidance on the cancer drugs fund, which will further speed up access for patients. The new guidance Of course, a hugely important element in all this is makes it clear that patients will not normally need to the patient experience, to which the noble Baroness, go through the primary care trust funding processes Lady Warwick, referred. In December 2010, we published prior to applying to the fund. In most cases, it will the report of the 2010 cancer patient experience survey, mean that patients are able to access drugs within a which recorded the views of more than 67,000 cancer matter of days of an application being made to the patients across 158 trusts. The survey showed that fund. In the longer term, our intention is to introduce 90 per cent of patients with an upper gastrointestinal a system of value-based pricing for new drugs, with cancer, which includes pancreatic cancer, reported having the aim of enabling patients to have greater access to a clinical nurse specialist. The survey also showed that effective and innovative new medicines. The whole cancer patients who had support from a clinical nurse premise of value-based pricing is to ensure that the specialist had a better overall experience of care. We price of a drug will be linked much more closely to its expect the National Health Service to consider this in assessed value. It will bring the price that the NHS developing its policies to improve patient experience. pays more into line with the value that a new medicine A 2011 survey is now in progress. We will be looking delivers. closely at the results of the survey to see where My noble friend Lady Jolly asked about that. She improvements have been made and where more needs also asked about mechanisms in the Health and Social to be done. Care Act that might assist cancer patients. The main Research featured large in this debate, including in mechanism is the outcomes framework, which will of the speeches of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, my course pervade everything that the NHS Commissioning noble friends Lord St John of Bletso and Lord Sharkey, Board does in the way of commissioning guidance, the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, the noble Baroness, and will inform the way that the commissioning outcomes Lady Thornton, and others. The National Institute for framework is developed. She also asked about engagement Health Research is making a significant contribution with the royal colleges. Ministers are currently meeting to the search for scientific breakthroughs in pancreatic representatives from the royal colleges on education cancer. The institute’s clinical research network is currently and training—I do not think on pancreatic cancer hosting 17 studies of pancreatic cancer and is recruiting specifically but certainly on the training of doctors. patients as we speak. In August 2011, the Government The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, asked me a announced £6.5 million of funding for the Liverpool number of questions. The NHS outcomes framework— biomedical research unit for gastrointestinal disease. I pay tribute to the work of the All-Party Group on About half this investment will support pancreatic Cancer over a number of years—will be updated cancer research. The NIHR clinical research network, annually to ensure that the most appropriate measures as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, is are used for comprehensiveness, while recognising that currently hosting 17 trials and other well designed we need to keep a broad continuity of indicators year studies in pancreatic cancer that are recruiting patients. on year. The refreshed NHS outcomes framework In 2010-11, a total of 687 patients were recruited 2013-14 will be published alongside the mandate in to pancreatic cancer studies hosted by the CRN. the autumn. To support the ongoing development of The National Cancer Research Institute’s upper- the framework, we are in the process of establishing an gastrointestinal clinical studies group is dedicated to independent technical advisory group that will provide developing a portfolio of research studies in pancreatic advice to the department and the board about current cancer, and has a pancreatic cancer subgroup, which indicators and proposals for new ones. has developed a number of internationally run trials. The noble Baroness asked about the national That is a cause for some encouragement. cancer patient experience survey. With the leave of the The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, referred to Committee, as there is a small amount of time left I the research involving processed meat. She is right; propose to utilise it, unless there are any objections. Swedish research published in the British Journal of In the first NHS outcomes framework we explained Cancer in January 2012 said that two rashers of bacon that the approach to Domain 4, which is patient or one sausage a day increases the risk of pancreatic experience, was evolutionary and the initial set of cancer by 20 per cent. There is also a link with bowel improvement areas for this domain was drawn from cancer. The department urges everybody to have a existing nationally co-ordinated surveys or from balanced diet. As with other forms of cancer, higher surveys that would be available in 2011-12. consumption of fruit and vegetables seems to be protective, Collectively, the improvement areas aim to achieve but I will write to the noble Baroness if I have any wide coverage of the interactions that people have further information on that subject. with the NHS and focus on different features of GC 257 Health: Pancreatic Cancer[23 APRIL 2012] Housing: Flats GC 258 patient-centred care. Future work will involve refining Housing: Flats surveys and developing new questions and measures to allow existing indicators to be replaced over time as Question for Short Debate necessary. With regard to cancer networks, we have already 4.31 pm made clear that there is a role for clinical networks Asked By Baroness Gardner of Parkes such as cancer networks in the reformed NHS, as a place where clinicians from different sectors come To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals together to improve the quality of care across integrated they have with regard to residential service charges pathways, and the cancer networks are a clear example and other matters affecting leasehold blocks of of how that way of working delivers better quality. flats. That is why the Secretary of State announced last May that we would continue to fund cancer networks this Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I have year and that, subject to legislation, the Commissioning declared my interest in the register as a long-standing Board will support strengthened cancer networks. leaseholder. Having always seen the leasehold situation The noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, asked from a personal point of view and how I have been about quality standards. There is no intention to produce affected by changes, I had not appreciated that it is a a quality standard for pancreatic cancer as such, but in vast subject which affects over 2 million people in the future there will continue to be flexibility in the library UK—half a million in the capital alone pay more than of quality standards to take account of new and half a billion pounds annually in service charges. This emerging priorities, should such need arise. March, the London Assembly produced Highly Charged, Our ultimate goal is to improve survival rates and an 80-page report on residential leasehold service charges the quality of life for those living with all cancers, in London. The foreword states, including pancreatic cancer. There are many challenges “the complexity of the service charges regime comes as a shock”, to be overcome but they are not insurmountable. and looks, in particular, Because of the Health and Social Act, clinical “at the way the transparency of service charges can be improved commissioning groups will be free to pursue innovative and leaseholders can be given greater control over the way services ways of delivering care that bring better results for all to their homes are provided”. patients, including those with pancreatic cancer, and I urge your Lordships to study this report and the NHS provider organisations will have the operational Lords Library briefing pack, most capably prepared independence to determine how best to meet the needs by our Library staff, in detail. of commissioners. There are many different issues in leasehold. Here is We have set five ambitious but measureable goals: a brief list of some of the key ones: simplification of to prevent people from dying prematurely from cancer; the law—a consolidation Act; regulation of managing to improve the quality of life for people with cancer; bodies; transparency—complaints processes; closing to help people recover from episodes of ill health; to loopholes—protecting leaseholders’ rights; easier change improve the experience of care; and to ensure that all to commonhold; right to manage—tenants’ associations; patients are treated and cared for in a safe environment. standard of services—value for money; exit or transfer We will continue to deliver on those goals. fees; and financing home ownership. Regarding simplification of the law, many people Lord Patel: Iamnotsureifitisinorderformeto who buy leasehold property have no idea what is do this, but I know that whatever the Minister says is involved. They are looking for somewhere they can taken as gospel, and he quoted a study from Sweden afford to live and, generally, their focus is on buying about the association of eating meat with pancreatic the flat. They look at the service charge for that year cancer. I do not know about the quality of that study, but many will not be looking at this going up or at but it sounds surprising that that amount of meat-eating large capital outlay in the future for block repairs—these increases the risk of pancreatic cancer by 20 per cent. are often nasty surprises. They expect to be able to rely I presume that he was talking about relative risk, not on managing agents—normally appointed by the absolute risk. freeholder or some other tier of landlord—to act fairly on their behalf. The leaseholder is always at the bottom of the pile. Earl Howe: My Lords, I will be happy to clarify that As Act after Act has constantly altered sections in point in a letter. earlier Acts, ordinary leaseholders—and even lawyers— find it difficult to navigate through the morass of legislation covering leasehold in England and Wales. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): There is real need for a Consolidation Act and I The Grand Committee stands adjourned until 4.30 pm, support the views of the Federation of Private Residents’ or indeed there may be a Division during that time, in Associations as set out in their paper Forgotten which case it will be 10 minutes from the time when Leaseholders. the Division is called. There is a strong call for regulation of managing bodies. I am ambivalent on the point as the necessary 4.29 pm changes in the law are far greater and a Consolidation Act which could clarify and simplify would be better. Sitting suspended. Regulation may be a helpful first step. The Government GC 259 Housing: Flats[LORDS] Housing: Flats GC 260

[BARONESS GARDNER OF PARKES] areas where many tenants live only part time or property do not seem to have sufficient data on the working of is in foreign ownership. At least some residents have to leasehold law. For instance, in 2009, the British Property be willing to take on the work of handling contact Federation wrote to the then Government stating that with the relevant landlord or managing agent and this it fully supported better regulation, yet it is often takes time and effort. There is no right to manage quoted by Ministers as opposing regulation. Sections available if more than 25 per cent of the building is in 152 and 154 of the 2002 Act were due to be in force by commercial use. Procedures and percentages merit now but the Government have not implemented these reconsideration. protective clauses. Residential tenants’ deposits are My housing experience in GLC days showed me protected by the law but the much larger amount, the that the number of people willing to take on such a leaseholders’ money held by managing agents, has no role on a voluntary, unpaid basis is very small and the protection. work can be very demanding. A reputable managing Transparency, a major news topic in recent weeks, agent has sent me interesting views about the need to is vital in the matter of service charges, works and train leaseholders to improve their knowledge of the repairs. Leaseholders are entitled to know how their system and obtain certification for this. He favours money is spent and to be confident that they are advisory bodies, alternative dispute resolution and getting what they have paid for. Shocking cases of mediation. He states that, massive overcharging have appeared in the press. In “many disputes could be avoided through early consultation”. 2011, the Daily Telegraph on 3 December and the Mail In an ideal world, he would be right, but many leaseholders on Sunday on 11 December published reports. There find that whatever attempts they make fail to produce was a September case settled almost on the doorstep any response or necessary action from their managing of the leasehold valuation tribunal where residents of agents. Agents change but are no better. Where routine St George Wharf, opposite Parliament, had received a inspections and long-term maintenance planning used refund of £1 million after a battle that went on for to be the norm, little, if anything, is done now. some years. As regards loopholes, there is evidently a defect in In the Charter Quay case against the same landlord, the leasehold Acts. Some process exists whereby a Mr Tchenguiz, in December, the leasehold valuation landlord can avoid the obligation of offering their tribunal found that many interconnected companies interest to the leaseholders in a block, by setting up were entering into contracts with other Tchenguiz what I think is called a sister company. In my block family-owned companies and in that case received an this has produced a very bad result for leaseholders excessive commission of 23.5 per cent for insurance. who would, I believe, have wanted to buy in that head The chairman said: lease. It is wrong that we did not have the opportunity. “The result of entering these contracts has been extremely damaging financially, because the break clauses are so onerous”. Exit or transfer fees have a very adverse effect on older people who wish to move to a retirement village Peverel, the management company owned until recently home and when the time comes to move, perhaps to by the Tchenguiz family, had a very poor record of a care home. They find themselves faced with quite a dealings with its leaseholders. high charge. This is often money that they need. If There are too many cases where intermediate landlords they have died, their family find that the property or management responsible for arranging services such might be almost impossible to sell because of the high as insurance have agreed contracts which mean that charges. This certainly needs to be looked at. It has a they are pocketing money themselves to the detriment doubly bad effect in housing terms. Older people of their tenants. Transparency is necessary to reveal living in a house too large for them and who are keen these situations and stop this abuse. The organisation to move to a sheltered housing facility are deterred Leasehold Knowledge Partnership is actively working from doing so because they have such a financial to ensure good practice. disincentive. This means that a large property is Easier change to commonhold was included in the underoccupied and unavailable for a family in need of 2002 Act and it is sad that so little commonhold has that size of accommodation. I support the Campaign been developed since. It is so clearly in the interest of Against Retirement Leasehold Exploitation—CARLEX. the resident. It gives people real ownership of the As to financing home ownership, bridging finance—so home in which they live. It should become government common years ago—was short-term money advanced policy to facilitate commonhold. The 2002 Act allows by a bank or building society to enable you to secure leaseholders to convert to commonhold, but only if the home you wished to move to, and to give you time they are 100 per cent in agreement on the matter. That to sell your present home. This enabled people to is an almost impossible percentage—just one flat can move up or down in accommodation size or location, thwart it. Reduction to a simple majority would make and it worked well. Today, lenders are clear that no a great difference. When residents see the benefits, as I such type of finance is available at all. have myself in my homeland, they would appreciate After a recent housing debate, the noble Lord, Lord the great advantages of such a system. I support the Best, told me that Hanover Housing Association, of views in favour of commonhold held by CARL, the which he is the chairman, offers an older person the Campaign for the Abolition of Residential Leasehold. right to move into appropriate accommodation and The right to manage and tenants’ associations can gives them two years within which to decide whether each be very beneficial. The difficulty arises in getting they are happy and want to buy and stay, or to return sufficient leaseholders in a block to agree on any to their original home. I find this a marvellous system. option. This is particularly difficult in cosmopolitan It should be more available. GC 261 Housing: Flats[23 APRIL 2012] Housing: Flats GC 262

Recently, I was involved in trying to help someone live in a fair and just society. We do not want to spend who wanted to buy a flat in a high-rise former council hours and days trying to get things done that should block— be done routinely and correctly. Having to complain, let alone having to do it formally through tribunal The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): proceedings, is a slow and laborious process. Life does With apologies to the noble Baroness, a Division has not need complication but simplification, and above been called in the Chamber. The Grand Committee all clarity. The issues need to be studied in detail for stands adjourned until 4.51 pm. the benefit of all. I hope that the Government will consider the many points that I am sure your Lordships 4.41 pm will raise today. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. 4.54 pm 4.51 pm Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I should declare an Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I will repeat the first interest: I am a vice-president of the Local Government sentence of my paragraph: otherwise, it will not hang Association. We should all be very grateful to the together. Recently, I was involved in trying to help noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, for securing this debate someone who wanted to buy a flat in a former council on this very important subject. I am only sorry that it block that had been bought under the right to buy. is such a short debate. I am sure that all of us have Application for a mortgage with a high-percentage been paring our words, having been inundated with deposit was approved in principle by the bank, and information. a valuation fee paid. The valuation report attached a There are 1.5 million leasehold homes in Great zero value to the flat. Thinking that this must be an Britain. This means that between 2 million and 3 million aberration, the prospective buyer went through the people are living in long-term leasehold properties. As same process with another bank and got exactly the the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, showed— same response: the value was listed as nil. A valuer’s and as other speakers, too, will show—there are still note said that no one was willing to lend on blocks considerable problems for those with homes in this that had a past or present connection with a local sector. This is despite the many Acts of Parliament authority, particularly if they were high-rise. The two that have covered leasehold tenure, going back half a banks had been willing to offer terms, but neither century. There were Acts in 1967, 1985, 1987, 1993 would do so with a zero on the valuation report. and, most recently, in 2002. I was involved in the 2002 Several other banks said that they would not offer Act and was surprised to realise that it was 10 years mortgages on any high-rise blocks. The policy of ago. There is much agreement, I think, about the need Barclays is not to lend on property above four floors, for helpful reform of leasehold across the parties. with the exception of expensive new buildings such as However, it is a complicated area, as we have already One Hyde Park—and, I suppose, the Shard. heard, and there is less agreement about how to make The implications of this are wide, particularly at a this reform a reality, and a reality that works. time when the Government are keen for more people The leasehold system that we are discussing today to buy the flat in which they live. I sent details of the is almost a uniquely Anglo-Welsh system. The rest of case to the Minister for Housing on 8 March, pointing the world has developed alternative approaches, to out that people need to be able to move on if their which the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, alluded in circumstances change and they need larger or different her opening comments. The problems in the leasehold accommodation, and asking who would want to buy if sector persist in large part because our present system they were locking themselves in to a totally illiquid is one of high legislation but low regulation. At the asset. His reply of 30 March stated that he had, heart of most of the problems is the fact that the “contacted HM Treasury and they have agreed to accept responsibility interests of the leaseholder—the one who usually has for this correspondence”. the most financial, practical and emotional investment The acknowledgement card from the Treasury was in a property—are all too often excluded. As the noble dated 28 March. I await a reply. I hope that my Baroness, Lady Gardner, has pointed out, the balance response will be swifter than that to the consumer of power between the freeholder and the leaseholder group Which? It has not yet had a reply from the too often seems to be to the advantage of the freeholder. Minister for Housing to its letter on leasehold property Furthermore, the root of many problems is that lessors charges sent last October. I received the Which? article are excluded from management decisions despite the only today. I have no time to comment on it but I hope fact that they are the people paying. that other noble Lords may do so. There is no independent or compulsory regulation. As I followed up on the high-rise case I was most This situation allows unscrupulous and incompetent impressed by how well blocks were managed by the managers to continue operating and undermines the local borough—a point made in the London Assembly influence of those living in managed properties. The report. The standard of consultation with tenants and lowest source of redress for leaseholders is the land of explanation of the work done was very clear, and valuation tribunal, but it is often lengthy, expensive far above anything that I had seen in private blocks. and bureaucratic. It is particularly detrimental for There are lessons to be learnt. poorer households. Many living in leasehold properties My brief time has run out. All I have been able to are retired; in fact, more than a third of leasehold flats do is list some of the issues. They are complex and are occupied by economically inactive people—I believe far-reaching, and affect many people. We all want to that the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, is going to GC 263 Housing: Flats[LORDS] Housing: Flats GC 264

[BARONESS MADDOCK] 5pm talk about people in retirement and the problems that they have. In the short term, the existing infrastructure Baroness Greengross: My Lords, I start by could be improved by focusing on levering in the congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, on interests of all leaseholders to the management process, securing this debate. It is a very important issue. with a compulsory ombudsman service, and improving I declare an interest as president of the Association of the management of leasehold properties through licensing. Retirement Housing Managers. I just want to make a This would incur some costs for leaseholders, and it few points about older people in retirement leasehold would create limited hurdles for those entering as schemes, as the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, suggested managing agents, but I feel it would improve the value I might. and quality of the service. Greater leaseholder I start with the resolution of conflict situations, and empowerment could be promoted by the Government there are quite a lot of them. As someone who for taking steps to encourage the process of right to many years headed a charity which set up a mediation manage and the long-term expansion of commonhold. scheme for people in leasehold housing schemes, I was Since 2002, complaints about managing agents have aware of the conflict. It is difficult, not least for the risen sharply; in fact they have more than quadrupled providers of schemes, who are dealing with people in the past 10 years. The number of people living in who are often prepared to spend 12 or more hours a leasehold properties is growing. The Government are day focusing on those issues and who can make amazing committed to unlocking the housing market, and leasehold barrack-room lawyers—I do not want to be insulting— properties will be an important part of this. We know because they have so much time to concentrate on that they will be particularly important in London, that. So it is a difficult as well as an important issue. where the majority of new homes will be leasehold The industry might be better served in conflict flats. In addition, the Government plan to reinvigorate resolution by stronger regulation through an independent the right to buy for social housing, and this is already regulatory body or, in the absence of that, some form creating more leaseholders. Surely leasehold reform of self-regulation underpinned by guidelines and should be a priority alongside increasing the housing codification—the sort of thing that the Association of supply. I am aware that the Housing Minister, Grant Residential Managing Agents has proposed and supports. Shapps, has stated that the interests of freeholders and That is worth considering. To help residents avoid managing agents are balanced and that reform should costly litigation processes, perhaps the Government be driven by a more proactive approach from the could implement a dispute resolution structure based sector, not by greater regulation. However, it is clear on compulsory mediation as a first step, as recommended that there are severe problems for leaseholders, and, as by the London Assembly report on service charges. voluntary regulation allows companies to operate That might be helpful. We know that increased clarity completely outside any regulatory regime, such problems is required on what is included in the annual service will continue unless some action is taken. charges, what is not, and what is retained in reserve for contingency funds and what precisely those funds The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, who is here cover. People are often greatly lacking in knowledge today, took part in debates on the 2002 Act, as perhaps about that. did others in the Chamber. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Best, was here at the time, but the On other charges, we know that the Office of Fair noble Lord, Lord Rooker, was then the Minister. I can Trading is currently investigating transfer fees, which still hear him saying that the local valuation tribunals are payable to the landlord by the owner or their would improve matters for leaseholders. However, they family once the property is sold. The level of fees is are proving costly, lengthy and bureaucratic. What set out in the original lease, but the scale of the fee monitoring have the Government done of the operation varies widely between property companies. Would the of local valuation tribunals, and do they have any Government consider a scaled fixed fee of some sort, plans to improve the operation of the tribunals? What which might be helpful? There also appears to be some research have the Government undertaken on the take-up ambiguity on the issue of the house manager flat of commonhold? In 2002, it was supposed to take over rental, charges for which are levied with the service from the old system, particularly for new build. charge. If people are dissatisfied with that charge, it is I understand from the statistics that that just is not not entirely clear what can be done to resolve the issue. happening. People prefer to go to the old system. Might part of any new guidelines help to address that, What are the Government planning to do to assist the and will landlords as well as management companies take-up? be expected to sign up to codes of practice which would cover allied issues such as the placement and I conclude by saying that we have regulation across cost of buildings insurance and any associated premium various areas where there is competition and the regulation commission, which require a consistent and open approach is often there to try to look after the interests of across the industry? consumers. We have not done that properly for leaseholders, and that is one of the best arguments for Finally, older residents in retirement housing are looking seriously at how we can regulate in the interests much more likely to experience unforeseen events, of leaseholders. I hope that this short debate this such as a decline in health status or the death of a afternoon will assist the Minister in trying to bring partner, than younger people and that might mean home to the Housing Minister, Grant Shapps, how that they have to change accommodation or—more important this is if he really wants to ensure that we likely—have to make adaptations to their accommodation have more affordable homes for people. fairly rapidly.Codes of practice should include provisions GC 265 Housing: Flats[23 APRIL 2012] Housing: Flats GC 266 to help older people and their families in those Many insurance companies discount terrorism as circumstances and to consider the additional provisions something that you can insure against. However, in they may make to help older people in particular. preparing for today’s debate I went back to the budgets Housing designed for older people whose needs for the block in which I live, and there was a £5,000 a change as they age faces an almost built-in conflict of year charge for insuring against terrorism. That is interest. They need more services as they age, so the against the background of a number of restrictions. costs are going to rise as more care is provided. Their You cannot keep pets, you cannot keep bikes in your income tends to be less over the years. They wish to flat, you cannot have wooden floors and you cannot reduce the cost but they need more services. Older and hang out washing. Perhaps all the prohibitions are frailer residents are more costly, so when residents reasonable. At least when we took on our leases we manage the schemes themselves they may wish to sell were aware of them. to active, fit and therefore younger people. There is a What made the biggest difference over the decade conflict in what extra-care housing is intended to do. was the revival of the residents’ association under the It is there so that as you get older and, perhaps, more chairmanship of somebody who devotes a vast amount frail, the services increase to meet your growing needs of time and energy, entirely voluntarily, to making the but if only younger, fitter, stronger people are invited sorts of improvements that we should expect good into a complex you are almost defeating the object. I regulation to make. She has made, single-handedly, a do not know if this problem can be solved but it is tremendous difference to the accountability of the there unless people massage the criteria for entry into management company.She has made it more transparent this sort of housing. This is sad but it presumably by asking lots of questions and then informing us on happens from time to time. the structure of the freeholder and the management These are issues which the Government and Members company, on the relationship between the two, and on of your Lordships’ House who are expert in this sort the trustee whom the management company appoints. of thing need to consider carefully. If anyone was going to speak this afternoon it should have been her, because she is a truly great expert on this. She also managed to end the perhaps unintentional 5.06 pm divide-and-rule culture of the management company, Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I, whereby leaseholders did not come together to take on too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner the management company over issues. Giving information of Parkes, because this is an enormously important about issues, and getting a consensus among leaseholders issue. As she rightly said in her extremely good on how to resolve them, is tremendously important. introduction, when people are looking at these flats Given how difficult it is at the moment to form a they are just looking for something they can afford. residents’ management association, I hope that the They are not looking in great detail at the implications Government will give at least some thought to making of becoming a leaseholder. I must declare an interest, it easier to form one. Beyond that, I hope that they will having become a leaseholder in Kennington in 2002. give some thought to giving more resources to residents’ What I say this afternoon is not because I am an associations. I do not mean that the Government expert but because our block is a microcosm of the should give the resources. Perhaps the service charge issues raised by noble Lords in this debate. We have could be top-sliced to give residents associations a had the issue of residential service charges which have minimal amount of funding to bring leaseholders not gone up as much as some that I have read about together. That is the start point that is so difficult to but have nevertheless seen a steep increase. achieve with no resources and few people willing to In terms of capital repair charges, this year we have volunteer their time. If the issue is one of the David had a projection several years forward. As our managing and Goliath—which is what it feels like most of the agents have said, this is the first time ever for this and time for the management committee and the chairman it is a terrific breakthrough. If there were going to be of the committee—we should give a few stones for regulations, a five- or 10-year forecast should be obligatory David to hurl at Goliath with his catapult. That would and would help tremendously. Last year, the surcharge make an enormous difference. If we achieve anything for external works was £2,000 on a two-bedroom flat. as a result of this debate it should be in that direction. That is a huge amount when it has not been foreseen more than 12 months before. Not many people can just find £2,000 in a year. 5.13 pm If you happen to want to sublet your flat, there are Lord Best: My Lords, I, too, am very grateful to the charges for assignment of leases. This is an issue noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, for initiating because if someone is marginal about subletting it this important debate on the management of leasehold might put them off. At a time when accommodation is flats. Since I agree with virtually everything she said, at such a premium, we want to make sure that those and virtually everything that everybody else that, I will charges are at least proportionate to the work done. not dwell on those points. I have come across charges for assignment of a lease Since most leasehold property is managed by managing where it was going to someone who was already a agents, we need to consider whether the current tenant in the block and was simply moving flats, so the arrangements are satisfactory in ensuring that they do taking up of references was pretty academic. a good job. I declare my interest as chair of the The issue of insurance was highlighted in the London property ombudsman TPO, which handles complaints Assembly report. Interestingly, it highlighted terrorism by tenants and, significantly, by landlords about managing as one of the unnecessary things to insure against. agents. I feel able to speak in this debate despite my GC 267 Housing: Flats[LORDS] Housing: Flats GC 268

[LORD BEST] ombudsman scheme where they can get their disputes interest because the property ombudsman TPO is addressed and agents that are outside such schemes, principally concerned with estate agents that handle the market will ensure that few agents remain beyond sales, where 95 per cent of agents are members, and the pale. In the private rented sector, a number of managing and letting agents that handle rented properties, agents have got together with the National Approved where the TPO accounts for some 60 per cent of the Letting Scheme, and with the professional bodies sector. There is another ombudsman service, quite representing agents, to launch a safe agents scheme separate from us, that handles the great majority of that in particular requires all agents to have client complaints about agents who look after leasehold money protection insurance. A publicity campaign by property. bodies representing leaseholders, such as the Federation On ombudsman services in general, the resolution of Private Residents’ Associations, to ensure that of disputes without the need to go to the courts, or in leaseholders choose only agents that belong to an this case to take matters to tribunal hearings, has ombudsman scheme, would certainly help to raise considerable advantages. Ombudsmen are not champions accountability and standards. of consumers any more than they are on the side of I will also comment on the practices surrounding providers. They must be entirely independent of both. payments that are required of leaseholders or their They can in that capacity not only resolve disputes in successors when they leave or die. Some contracts in individual cases but play a significant role in raising retirement housing stipulate payments to the freeholder, standards in an industry. For example, complaints and these exit fees have been the subject of serious against estate agents in relation to property sales have complaint. Here I declare an interest as chair of the fallen, and the level of awards that agents have been Hanover housing association, which has taken on the required to pay has also fallen over recent years. It freeholds of several thousand leasehold retirement seems very likely that the pressure and publicity from flats. From this I know that practices in the sector can the work of the property ombudsman in judging the vary from the good to the bad. At the positive end it behaviour of agents against a clear code of practice can be beneficial to offer to occupiers the option that contributed significantly to this improvement. some part of the service charge—usually that covering Throughout their professional bodies, and in the building up of a provision for major repairs, the professional and trade magazines and journals, there replacement of lifts and so on—should be deferred is constant reference to the standards to be expected until the occupier leaves. This will mean that every of agents in treating with consumers. Where the month those on tight incomes will have more spending ombudsman’s decision leads to an offending agent money, and the accumulated service charge will come being expelled from the scheme, local publicity has a out of the sales proceeds when they leave or die. powerful impact. The ombudsman cannot deal with At the other extreme are cases of small print where the more extreme cases, not least because his powers the occupier—or their heirs and successors—is required are limited to making a maximum award of £25,000 in to pay 5 per cent of the sales proceeds to the freeholder the case of the TPO, and some matters must still go to in return for no discernible benefit. There have been the courts. However, the ombudsman service means complaints that purchasers did not understand such that huge numbers of disputes can be resolved at low requirements buried in their contracts. The Office of cost—indeed, at no cost to the complainant. Fair Trading looked at these questions, and it would I recognise that there can be additional complications be helpful to have an update from the Minister on the for leaseholders. An individual leaseholder may be action that the OFT intends to take—not to throw the insistent that the managing agent should take action, baby out with the bathwater but to clamp down on perhaps in accordance with their contractual agreement, unfair and misleading contractual arrangements that where the cost of the agent doing so may mean that are discovered. Although I recognise the Government’s the management company, comprising the residents aversion to statutory regulation, will the noble Baroness who will all have to pay, is not so keen for the managing comment on the value of extending the role of agent to proceed in this way. In other words, there may ombudsman services? be three parties engaged in a dispute: the individual leaseholder, the leasehold management company and 5.20 pm the agent. This will require additional sorting out. Hopefully, such cases are in the minority, and I would Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, like other advocate much greater use of the existing ombudsman speakers, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner service to settle disputes and to raise standards for of Parkes, for the opportunity to reflect on a particular residential leaseholders. aspect of housing policy and I am grateful for the We know that the Government are not keen on any briefings that we have had. I start by declaring an new regulation in the private rented sector. The property interest because I am, jointly with my wife, a long ombudsman has argued for the same requirements on leaseholder of a flat in London. This debate has, if managing letting agents as exist for estate agents under nothing else, spurred me to be more diligent in reviewing the Consumers, Estate Agents and Redress Act, which the paperwork. would make it compulsory for all agents to belong to As others have said, issues of residential leaseholders an ombudsman scheme. In the absence of such legislation, touch on a particularly complex area of legislation. it seems that we must rely on voluntary action by The noble Baroness has previously sought a view from agents to join an ombudsman scheme. The advantage the Government about whether they will consolidate to the agents will be that as consumers become aware landlord and tenant legislation and was told, back in of the difference between agents that belong to an November, that there were no plans to do so. However, GC 269 Housing: Flats[23 APRIL 2012] Housing: Flats GC 270 that exchange at Question Time brought forward code of conduct on service charges for residential suggestions that the matter might be referred to the management. There is a separate code for retirement Law Commission. Has anything been taken forward housing managers. New best practice guidance has in this respect? In the same exchange, the Minister been introduced by the RICS in co-operation with the indicated that a wide range of housing regulations accountancy bodies, in the face of the Government’s were being looked at as part of the red tape challenge. refusal to implement what was previously proposed. Is How is that progressing, which particular regulations that considered fit for purpose, and will the Government are being reviewed and what areas are being looked at? reconsider giving it some statutory backing? In a further exchange on 17 January, the noble Baroness, Despite the voluntary code, as we have heard and Lady Hanham, reaffirmed that there were no plans for seen from our briefings, difficulties abound. Barriers a wide ranging review of leasehold law, but indicated to the managing agent industry are low; and not all that the Government were keeping a watching brief managing agents belong to the RICS or ARMA schemes and would not rule out making changes. Have any and are therefore not bound by the code. There are no changes currently been ruled in? ombudsman arrangements to which all managing agents Issues of leaseholders are just one part of the are required to adhere, and the noble Lord, Lord Best, housing problems facing our country and, to be frank, made a powerful argument to change that. It has been are not the most pressing. House building has fallen suggested that some of the difficulties arise from the by 11 per cent in the first 18 months of the coalition essential imbalance of power between freeholders Government, private sector rents have risen and are and landlords on the one hand and leaseholders unaffordable for too many and home ownership has on the other—the David and Goliath syndrome. declined as people struggle to get mortgages. We know Notwithstanding this, it would seem that some of the that the Government have set their face against further conflicts arise because insufficient attention is paid regulation, scrapping Labour’s plans for a national when a lease is entered into or required in the first register of landlords and regulation of letting and place. managing agents. This is at a time when some of the The London Assembly report suggests a requirement most vulnerable are having their housing benefit cut for more specific advice at the point of agreement. and are being directed to the cheaper and shabbier end Estimates of service charges for the next five years, I of the private rented sector. Nevertheless, the issue think, were suggested in that case. It was interesting to raised by the noble Baroness is important and, as hear the experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, others have said, is likely to be of increasing significance currently. The concerns around service charges are if more blocks of flats are built, shared ownership inflated prices, not having to achieve value for money, schemes are promoted and—as the noble Baroness, undisclosed commissions, awards of contracts to related Lady Maddock, mentioned—the Government attempt companies of managing agents, and the lack of security to reinvigorate the right-to-buy programme. for leaseholder moneys. The report prepared by the London Assembly also raised issues concerning the It is not just private sector freeholders and landlords leasehold valuation tribunal, suggesting that the process who are involved with leaseholders. Some quite outdated was getting increasingly complex, with an impact on ARMA data from 1998-99 suggests that 20 per cent of cost. There was difficulty in getting information from landlords are social landlords. The same survey suggested landlords, who were increasingly employing counsel, that less than half of leasehold flats were using a reflecting on-costs. What is the Government’s assessment managing agent. Can the Minister update us on that of how the tribunal is currently working? data? I do not have time to cover it today, but there were issues about social landlords, leaseholders and There is a case for more regulation—if not by the implications for decent home standards where a government, by industry bodies—but this must be lot of money was being applied by local authorities to effective. We have a policy review under way, and in upgrade their stock and the implications of that for this connection the principles that we would deploy to people who had bought a flat. address this issue require ensuring good practice is promoted, improving transparency, supporting a register It must be acknowledged that this area is not entirely of competitive tendering processes for services, and unregulated. The law requires consultation with having systems, perhaps mandatory, for the resolution leaseholders before works above a certain value can be of disputes. carried out; demands for service charges must be in writing; there is an expectation under the law that The Deputy Chairman (Lord Geddes): The noble service charges are reasonable and there is a right for Lord times it quite beautifully. A Division has been landlords and leaseholders to seek a determination called in the Chamber. The Grand Committee stands from a leasehold valuation tribunal. Leaseholders are adjourned until 5.37 pm. entitled to a summary of service accounts and to inspect documents. Service charge funds are deemed 5.27 pm to be held on trust but do not have to be held in separate trust accounts: thereby hangs a problem. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. However, as I understand it, where there is a residents’ management company or a right-to-manage company, 5.40 pm service charge moneys are subject to a statutory trust. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Apart from the law, managing agents who are members for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): of RICS or ARMA—the Association of Residential My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have taken part Managing Agents—are required to adhere to the RICS in this debate—most especially the noble Baroness, GC 271 Housing: Flats[LORDS] Housing: Flats GC 272

[BARONESS HANHAM] position or role for it, it would be in a position to take Lady Gardner of Parkes, for introducing it. She has the matter up itself, but we are not at the moment taken a long-term interest in housing and has great planning to ask it to do so. experience. It is therefore important to be able to deal Service charges and the management of property with the issues that she has raised and those raised by were mentioned by the noble Baronesses, Lady Miller subsequent speakers. I have a limited time, and I say at and Lady Maddock, as were the role of managing the outset that if there are areas that I miss, we will agents and their capability. Noble Lords will know make sure that letters are written afterwards. that leaseholders have a range of legal rights concerning We believe and understand that most leaseholders service charges and the management of property. They are, in fact, satisfied not only with their property but can hold managers and landlords to account if they with the way it is managed. However, I accept immediately believe that their service charges are unreasonable or if that there are a number of exceptions to this rule. We they are facing continuing poor management. Again, I also know that leasehold tenure can be complex, and recognise that this is not an easy area. It throws a lot problems and disputes arise, which cause concern, of responsibility on to tenants’ associations and frustration and, in some cases, real distress to the leaseholders’ associations. The noble Baroness, Lady people concerned. We have a statutory framework in Miller, referred to that. place that aims to balance the different parties’ interests However, I do not think that it is for government to in the same property. The goal is to provide leaseholders intervene any further. People who buy leasehold properties with the rights and protections they need, while recognising first need to be very careful with the lease they are the legitimate interests of landlords. buying, to know what they are buying, to know what The current legislative framework, if properly dealt are the service charge implications and management with, can deliver the right balance between the parties implications. They need to know whether the managing involved—but provided it is matched by an increasingly agent has been appointed by the freeholder and what proactive and socially responsible approach by the responsibility they take if that managing agent is not professionals who are working within the sector. In standing up to proper scrutiny. At the end of the day, taking this approach, the Government are, I recognise, leaseholds are the responsibility and under the ownership presenting a real challenge to those professionals. I am of the people who live in a block of flats and it is very therefore pleased to see this challenge being taken up much in their interests to have an organisation or by various professional bodies such as the Association association to use to help manage it. Although I of Retirement Housing Managers, to which the noble accept that that involves a big responsibility on those Baroness, Lady Greengross, referred. This can only who do that, there are some very determined leaseholders help leaseholders and others concerned within residential who manage to achieve it. leasehold. I touched briefly on the question of the leasehold valuation tribunal, which caused some ripples early The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, referred to the on. I know that there are leaseholders who have had London Assembly report, as did other noble Lords. successes with the London valuation tribunals. Although We have noted that the London Assembly’s report on I appreciate that there are difficulties and discrepancies its investigation, Highly Charged, is a thorough and between the amount of costs involved and those who thoughtful contribution to these issues. Most of the pay for them, it is a fact that the leasehold valuation report’s recommendations to government in fact relate tribunal is there to be the arbiter in cases where to the procedures of the leasehold valuation tribunal. otherwise landlords and tenants cannot agree. As such—although I will refer to the LVT later—they are issues for the Ministry of Justice, and it is up to The current maximum fee payable to a tribunal is that ministry to address these issues. It is also now for £500. Sometimes no fee is payable at all, but of course the Mayor of London and the Assembly to decide as cases continue each party is responsible for their what steps they will take, but I suspect that as purdah costs of representation. Leasehold valuation tribunals is in place, I should not continue on that matter. are independent and do not seek to favour one party or another. They are viewed as the most appropriate The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, also raised the forum for dealing with a wide range of leasehold case for consolidation of legislation. This matter is disputes. Any research on the effectiveness of leasehold unbelievably complicated. I do not know if the noble valuation tribunals would, I fear, be for the Ministry Lord, Lord McKenzie, had anything to do with of Justice. It seems ridiculous that that has got out of consolidating legislation when he was in government, our hands, but that is where it is. They are given but it is not to be undertaken lightly at all. We recognise jurisdiction to determine leasehold disputes and parties that sometimes it can be beneficial to bring together can of course go to court. Again, I appreciate that that all relevant legislation, but it takes a long time. You is all quite daunting for people who think that they have to bring not only the law but the regulations into might want to just go to live a quiet life, but that is not one place. At the moment, it is probably not justifiable always possible. to spend time consolidating legislation in this area. Yes, managing agents are appointed by the freeholder. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, referred to the Law Commission and asked whether we were planning to ask it to look at this issue. I said when we previously Baroness Maddock: Before the Minister leaves leasehold discussed this issue that we did not think that the Law valuation tribunals, having said that it is the responsibility Commission would be grateful for our recommendation, of the Ministry of Justice, I would be grateful to know and that it was very much up to it to decide what it whether it has undertaken any review. As I said in my wanted to do. If the commission felt that there was a remarks, I can still hear the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, GC 273 Housing: Flats[23 APRIL 2012] Armed Forces: Personnel GC 274 telling me in 2002 how wonderful it was going to be Office of Fair Trading, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, for everybody. I realise that it is not the Minister’s said, has been considering whether the exit fees might responsibility now, but I would be grateful for that breach the unfair terms in consumer contracts, and information at some stage. they do indeed constitute a breach. The OFT can take action and can take such companies to court. Baroness Hanham: May I get back to the noble I have been advised by the Whip at my right hand Baroness in due course? I will have to find out whether that I have truly run out of time. The only point that I that has been undertaken. have not covered is that on the ombudsman, which the noble Lord, Lord Best, raised. May I write to him Managing agents, as I say, are put forward by the about that, since I do not now have time? I have a note freeholder. The leaseholders have some rights if they of it. I shall also write regarding the red-tape challenge. consider that they property is not being properly managed, and can go to the leasehold valuation tribunal about There has been too much in this debate for me to go that or begin to think about taking over the right to into as much detail in my response as I would have manage the property for themselves, which would liked. We will scour Hansard and, if we have missed mean that they were then fully in charge. anything, I will write to noble Lords who have taken part. I thank everyone for their contribution on this Service charges are an issue. All sorts of issues have extremely important subject, and I assure noble Lords been raised today about the protection of money and that I will draw the Housing Minister’s attention to service charges, how much they are and what is involved this debate and the concerns that have been raised. with them. Again, I am afraid that that is a matter for the leaseholders to watch carefully. It is important that what the managing agents do and the costs that they The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner put forward are transparent, and that the leaseholders of Worcester): The Grand Committee will adjourn have a number of rights. They can and must ask for a during pleasure until 6.30 pm. summary of service charges, and those charges should be consulted upon. They must be able to see the 5.55 pm supporting documentation. They have a right to see insurance documents and the right to have a management Sitting suspended. audit carried out, albeit at their own expense. So they have some control over the service charges, although I think my noble friend Lady Miller mentioned capital Armed Forces: Personnel charges and the fact that some people had not understood Question for Short Debate that they were going to come in. There are two codes of practice, one from the 6.36 pm Association of Retirement Housing Managers, mentioned Asked by Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, and one from the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors, which To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps I think the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, mentioned. they are taking to resolve the issues of operational These pay particular attention to the disclosure of tempo, pay, pensions and housing affecting Armed commissions. Although the issue has not been entirely Forces personnel reported in the latest Armed Forces raised today, there have been concerns about the Pay Review Body report; and how they ensure that commissions taken on insurance. There are good codes such steps are compatible with the Armed Forces of practice that ought to be adhered to. The Association covenant. of Retirement Housing Managers code is in the process of being reviewed—we expect that to come off quite soon—and we hope that RICS will also look at that Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: My Lords, the issue and revise what it says. opening words of the current military covenant say that, The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, and other noble “the whole nation has a moral obligation”, Lords raised two or three other points. I shall comment briefly on commonhold, something that I remember to all those, debating with the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, in “who serve or have served in the Armed Forces…and their 2002 when we were, it is fair to say, vigorously opposed families”. and saw all sorts of pitfalls coming up. Those pitfalls and that they deserve our are still there but we could make it easier for a leasehold “respect and support, and fair treatment”. property to be changed to commonhold. This would That is the basis of my Question for Short Debate this now be a matter for the Lord Chancellor, which slips it evening. I ask myself whether the Government are away from me, and the Secretary of State for Justice. fulfilling their obligation on the military covenant. It is They will be required to have a look at it, and I am an undertaking that goes back many centuries, indeed sure that we will refer them to this debate so that they to the first great Queen Elizabeth—Elizabeth I—when will know what has been said about it. an Act was passed which compelled parishes to contribute The noble Lord, Lord Best, and the noble Baroness, to the care of veterans. This nation has a very long Lady Greengross, raised the question of exit fees. We history of seeking to give good support not just to our could not possibly comment on the practice of any service men and women but to their families as well, particular company, but we are well aware that these both during and after their time in the services. The are causing practical issues and great distress. The Armed Forces do not have the channels to speak out GC 275 Armed Forces: Personnel[LORDS] Armed Forces: Personnel GC 276

[BARONESS DEAN OF THORNTON-LE-FYLDE] morale of our Armed Forces personnel and their for themselves. They are not permitted to join a trades families. We should be worried about that and we union, although if you look at the blogs and the should try to address the issue. chatter on the wires, you would see that many in the A staunch pillar of the covenant going back generations Armed Forces are now agitating that they should have has been the provision of housing, particularly in the a trades union. I make no comment on that. Army. The Navy has a high proportion of its personnel They do not have the same right to speak freely in the who buy their own homes. To be in a community of public arena about their position as we do. However, forces families in similar situations—young families, in January this year, Catherine Spencer, speaking on often with Dad, or now sometimes Mum, absent for a behalf of the Army Families Federation, suggested lot of the time on operations—provides great mutual that ministers were close to breaching the military support. In the recent, successful television programme, covenant. She said: “The Choir”, we saw how being there supported those young women. Just 45 per cent of Army personnel are “I have to ask if the future has ever seemed more demoralising”. buying or renting their own homes—two-thirds as I have always believed that you should look on the many as the rest of us in the population. So the upside of things and not just the negatives. I have had reasons for the drop in morale are obvious. a pretty awful weekend doing the research for this If this situation is to change, more help is needed. speech because I have become increasingly concerned The home is at the heart of the family. It is somewhere about the state of our Armed Forces—I am talking we all retreat to when we have issues. The £8,500 from about the personnel side, not the equipment, obviously. the current Long Service Advance of Pay Scheme to I recognise the need for austerity measures but my assist in buying a home is, in my view, insufficient; it interpretation of the wording of the 2012 AFPRB was insufficient some years ago. I am not even sure report is that it expresses deep and serious concerns on whether it is still being applied, but the conditions for the range of those austerity measures and how they it are pretty onerous. It will not bring about the are being applied to the Armed Forces. change that the Government—particularly the Minister— I declare an interest as a former chairman of the want. The Armed Forces Home Ownership Scheme is Armed Forces Pay Review Body for six years. I am a good and very welcome initiative, but it hardly currently a vice-president of the War Widows’Association touches the problem. Just 93 personnel benefited from and a trustee of the Armed Forces Pension Scheme. April 2010 to July 2011, so it needs a lot more resourcing. I have been in contact with none of them for this I accept that in a period of austerity that is very debate; I am not speaking to any external briefing. difficult; nevertheless, it needs more resource. With the This is based on my experience. number of personnel returning from Germany, what It is a long time since I read a report from the are their hopes for decent housing either within or Armed Forces Pay Review Body which has been so without the services? direct in talking about decreasing morale in the Armed I read the review body report over the weekend, and Forces. The report states that the operational tempo from personal experience I know how much care goes remains “very high”. We know that, but that is almost into writing this report. The authors do not want to be a blanket for a number of problem areas: people not negative when they write the report or cause problems being with their families for as long as they should, by overspinning it, but the report brought home to me going off on operations, coming back, going on training, just how serious the concerns must be. Normally the not having the time that we have, in the military authors would put it across very calmly and without covenant, tried to ensure for them. Indeed, chapter 2.8 exaggeration—and I believe there is no exaggeration states: in this report. So I was alarmed at the overall message in sections of it. One reference on its own would not “The 2011 Armed Forces Continuous Attitude Survey … indicated decreasing satisfaction … and declining morale”, be too concerning, but reference after reference to morale must lead to concern. in the services. The review body deals with serving personnel, not Written and oral evidence from the services family veterans; the military covenant covers those serving federations highlighted uncertainty from those people and those who have served, and rightly so. The plight about, for instance, the future of the pension scheme of some veterans is concerning and has been raised in and the related transitional arrangements; changes to this House over a number of years. It is not getting the Ministry of Defence allowances package; the impact much better. Last year the Veterans Aid charity provided on family life of the operational tempo; and the recurring 19,700 nights of accommodation for former Armed theme of poor-quality accommodation and maintenance. Forces personnel. A disproportionate number of people These are ongoing issues that have been raised not just who live on the streets come from the Armed Forces; with the present Government but with the previous we know that from debates that we have had in the Government. House. The link with the poverty that those people live Those concerns are coupled with a pay freeze for in must be of concern to us all. 75 per cent of Armed Forces personnel for the past The House has a reputation for taking a keen two years and a pay award for the remaining 25 per interest in Armed Forces personnel issues. I think that cent of just £250. In my view, the decision now to we all recognise the work and dedication that the extend the pay restraint for a further two years, with noble Lord, Lord Astor, has applied to this. Nevertheless, no exclusions and a limit of 1 per cent, is having a there are still areas of criticism. I will bring together cumulative and potentially damaging impact on the the list of issues of concern that contribute to a lack of GC 277 Armed Forces: Personnel[23 APRIL 2012] Armed Forces: Personnel GC 278 morale. There has been pay restraint for two years for of maintenance and the modernisation of services 75 per cent of personnel, yet they see in the Budget accommodation. The report states that there are that people with plenty of money will get tax cuts next 49,000 service family units in the UK, and that the year. Job security is disappearing and career prospects 39,600 units in England and Wales—80 per cent of have been cut, against a background of high operational the 49,000—are leased from the commercial concern tempo and the negative impact on family life. to which the MoD sold the properties. Only 20 per Sometimes when I raise issues, for example on cent are owned by the MoD or by others. pensions, I am told that things cannot be changed The good news is that in 2010-11, £62.5 million was because the consequences will bounce back on the spent on improvements, with 900 properties being public sector. I do not accept that as a rational argument. upgraded. The bad news is that there will be a three-year People in the public sector do not go off and give their pause in the improvements programme from April lives. More than 400 of our men and women have lost 2013. The report shows that the MoD’s procurement their lives in Afghanistan up to March this year. It strategy was to sell off most of its English and Welsh cannot be said that this is the same kind of job as SFA estate for £1.7 billion in 1986, whereas the rent it working in an office or in a local authority. We need to has paid for those often badly maintained properties look at this. has been a massive £2 billion compared to the money I am not asking for special treatment. I hope that received by the MoD of £1.7 billion. I hope that when on this occasion the Minister will not trot out the my noble friend replies, he will comment on that usual mantra that it is all the previous Government’s procurement policy of the Ministry of Defence. Putting fault. I am asking that we honour the military covenant. my accountant’s rather than my defence hat on, given It is our moral obligation. We are in serious danger of £1.7 billion with interest of, say, half a billion pounds not meeting that obligation. Perhaps in his reply the over the six years, one could have borrowed the £1.7 billion, Minister will kindly consider committing to remedy paid the interest of roughly half a billion, and the what people in the Armed Forces have lost. They face MoD would still own the properties having received four years of pay restraint—a pay cut in anyone’s £2 billion-worth of rent and, at that stage, the rent language—and a lack of job security and career prospects. roughly equalling the cost of repaying the loan and We need a renewal of our commitment to the Armed the interest. The MoD, would still own the properties Forces, and we need to carry out that renewal. which it has to repair and maintain although they are owned by someone else. I ask my noble friend whether 6.47 pm it is right to make a judgment on forces’ housing on purely financial grounds without a strong consideration Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: My Lords, I thank of the debt we owe our service personnel as contained the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, for initiating this in the Armed Forces covenant. debate, which is very appropriate. In reaching its recommendations, the Armed Forces Pay Review Body, I do not want to be all negative, because I take which the noble Baroness mentioned, must have regard account of the fact that I am part of a Government to, coalition party. There are many things which we have “the need to recruit, retain and motivate suitable, able and qualified not highlighted. For instance, there has been a rise in people taking into account the particular circumstances of Service council tax relief to 50 per cent for service personnel life”. overseas, a pupil premium of £250 for every child with I make no excuse for raising in this debate a subject a parent in the services and a yearly fund of £3 million that I raised at each stage of the Armed Forces Bill: to support state schools with service children. I was Armed Forces housing. Surely the state of availability delighted that the operational allowance was doubled of such housing must be a major factor in recruitment, for Armed Forces personnel serving in Afghanistan. retention and motivation. Adequate housing must be The community covenant scheme was launched to one factor to balance against the “high operational strengthen support between civilian communities and tempo” that the Armed Forces pay review report the forces with a grant of £30 million and the establishment identifies. The report described the lack of choice in of a veterans’ information service—they often need it. accommodation, the variable maintenance performance Members of the House will know that during various and also what constitutes family eligibility for debates I have made a big thing about treatment of accommodation. veterans and medals. I am pleased that the Armed In answers given by Ministers to my many previous Forces compensation payments have been ensured as comments on Armed Forces housing, the proposal not being required as payments for social care. was made that in future families will be enabled to Improvements to the Army’s education programme own their homes. This was mentioned by the noble have also been secured. I was also delighted that Baroness, Lady Dean. I said at the time that I agreed during the passage of the Armed Forces Act, thanks with this as an alternative and as an aspiration but to input from many Members of this House, there was that home ownership should not be a requirement for movement, with the Minister’s help, on medals which our forces. The report rightly says that the MoD will had been awarded but were not allowed to be worn. need to continue to make a significant provision of That was a move of great sensibility in which I thank good-quality housing for a mobile workforce. the Minister for taking such a great part. I hope that A significant part of the report deals with the the commission set up to look into medals and veterans, levels of rents and the size of any subsidy. My criticism which seems to be clouded in a measure of obscurity, is that the financial and economic requirements looks at the whole question of medals, the treatment laid down in the report are divorced from the state of veterans and the National Defence Medal itself. GC 279 Armed Forces: Personnel[LORDS] Armed Forces: Personnel GC 280

[LORD PALMER OF CHILDS HILL] were talking about in the SDSR. Again, soldiers, The review is important and I hope that when the sailors and airmen are not silly, and they can see this. Minister replies to comments made by me and the Coming on top of a freeze, with jam tomorrow being noble Baroness, Lady Dean, we can feel more comfortable promised to them, and with 2015 not looking like it on behalf of our valuable Armed Forces personnel. will provide the jam that was suggested in the SDSR, they are understandably concerned—particularly when they see that against the natural requirement for an 6.54 pm upturn in personnel costs, which have been so adequately Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, like the noble Lord, and fully described by the noble Baroness, the equipment Lord Palmer, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady programme is so vast that it is likely to swamp or Dean, on obtaining this debate. It is very important dominate the personnel side, if we are not careful. and there is no doubt that word of it will get out to the However, two sentences in the report worried me Armed Forces that we have taken an interest in what, more. They were: as I know from personal experience when serving, is “We were due to undertake a number of scheduled reviews regarded as the highlight of the year almost on the this year. For some reviews, MoD did not submit the evidence we personnel side: the annual report of the Armed Forces required at the start of the round and we made clear that further Pay Review Body, of which the noble Baroness was evidence was needed”. herself a most notable chairman. Frankly, I find that utterly disgraceful. Despite all the I must admit that what struck me when reading the evidence that is there every time you talk to a serviceman, report was its similarity with what I regarded as one of the MoD could not establish the evidence on which the low points of my career, which was in 1977, when the Armed Forces Pay Review Body was due to do its we had to face what became known as the Irishman’s work. No one should know this more than the current pay rise, when the pay rise we were given was less than Permanent Under-Secretary, with whom I once worked the increase in the accommodation and food charges. when she headed the Prime Minister’s Social Exclusion The result was that a number of commanding officers Unit. She knows all about the impact on people of the resigned because they refused to read out to their men things we have been talking about. what they were told to read—that this was a good pay I know that we are very fortunate in having in the settlement and that there was also to be a considerable Minister someone who listens, cares and will take increase in what is now called voluntary outflow. The note. This is not just criticism for criticism’s sake—it is result of that, thank goodness, was that the incoming serious alarm that the MoD should be reported on by Conservative Government had taken note of what was the organisation to which service men and women happening. There was an almost immediate pay rise, look up to more than any other to look after their following the new Government taking over in 1979, interests. It should not be accused of not providing the which rescued a very dangerous situation. I was struck evidence needed. by the similarities of that situation when I read that This leads me to the one recommendation that I there will be rental increases varying from 2.9 per cent would like to put to the Minister, based on the Armed for grade 1 to nothing for grade 4, and a 4.9 per cent Forces covenant. As the noble Baroness said, the increase in the daily food charge, when so few people covenant is about the services and their families, and are getting any increase in their pay. That strikes me as veterans and their families. I am not talking about being along exactly the same lines as the previous veterans and their families. The key part, as we discussed situation. People are not silly and will see it as such. during the Armed Forces Bill, is when the Secretary of I was for a time the Adjutant-General, the personnel State reports to Parliament on the covenant. At the director, for the Army. I was fortunate with the Armed moment there is no set date for that, but bearing in Forces Pay Review Body of the time. It was extremely mind the importance of the Armed Forces Pay Review well led and it listened. It was encouraging to me that Body and its report, and the fact that we in this the board always came back and discussed what it had House—and, I hope, the other House—will take a heard from us. There was therefore a partnership keen interest in this, I suggest that the timing of the between the board and the military.The board recognised Secretary of State’s report on the Armed Forces covenant that the military welcomed the board, rather than not should be related to the annual report of the AFPRB liking having it around, and particularly welcomed so that the Government’s comments on the AFPRB this partnership. can be included in that covenant report. I believe that I was therefore intrigued that this AFPRB, which, that is what service men and women will be concerned as the noble Baroness said, has produced a very direct about more than any other issue. report, is clearly listening. I noted that it pointed out, among other comments, that it had heard, “significant concerns about the wide-ranging changes in train 7.02 pm following the Strategic Defence and Security Review”. Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe: My Lords, I thank In other words, it was looking widely and looking for my noble friend for introducing this debate and providing causes to report about, not just for individual things. us with an opportunity to consider issues of such Why is that serious? It is very serious because here we importance to our Armed Forces personnel. As she are faced with another two-year pay freeze, and we are has highlighted, our Armed Forces are currently under told that the achievement of what was set out in the great pressure. As the report puts it, “operational strategic defence review depends on a financial upturn tempo remains high”. Gruelling tours in Afghanistan, in 2015. Frankly, looking ahead, it does not seem that and the Libya campaign, have placed a heavy burden that financial upturn is likely to provide what people on our services personnel and their families. This GC 281 Armed Forces: Personnel[23 APRIL 2012] Armed Forces: Personnel GC 282 summer, there are the added operational demands of pay. The average length of service is nine years; only providing security for the London 2012 Olympics and 2 per cent of personnel serve to the age of 55; 34 per the Diamond Jubilee. cent will earn an early-departure payment; and 64 per cent will not serve to the age of 40. These demands are being met with commitment and good will, at a time when our forces are experiencing Service men and women rely on these small a two-year pay freeze, cuts to MoD allowances, continuing payments to see them into civilian life. I know this cost-of-living increases and uncertainties over changes from what they told me on “Dauntless”, and from the to come from the strategic defence and security review. experience of a friend whose father came out of the While the Armed Forces Pay Review Body’s 2012 Army and returned to the UK aged 40, with two report notes carefully that recruitment and retention small children, no job and no house. The EDP housed are, and fed them for many months until he found work. “currently acceptable overall against a reducing manning requirement”, These payments matter enormously. Therefore it is it also highlights a “difficult year” for services personnel essential that the new pension scheme being designed and their families. We know that to be true. While the by the MoD should protect and preserve the interests pay freeze affects the whole of the public sector, it is of service personnel. Confidence in their pension is not the case that all those in the public sector risk their crucial to morale—but it was not what I saw on lives when doing their jobs on our behalf. HMS “Dauntless”. I support my noble friend in contrasting the discomfort If the Armed Forces fear that they are being stitched of pressures on the cost of living with the unrelenting up, there is a desperate need to stem the tide of doubt. day-to-day pressures on those we expect to serve us in The commission on public sector pensions, chaired by battle. Those pressures make it vital that we get right the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hutton, recommended anything that influences the retention of experienced a switch to options based on average earnings over a personnel in our Armed Forces. career. The noble Lord acknowledged that in the We have been reminded that, since November last Armed Forces the switch would take longer than the year, the principles of the Armed Forces covenant are expected target date of 2015, and stressed that Armed now enshrined in law. The covenant promises that the Forces schemes should be tailored to the unique Armed Forces community should not face disadvantage requirements and hazards of military careers. He also because of its military experience. It sets out what recommended that accrued rights for those in existing safeguards, rewards and compensation military personnel pension schemes should be protected. This was accepted can expect in return for military service. Fairness on by the Government, yet widespread uncertainty remains. pay and pensions, therefore, lies at the heart of the As the review body report noted, this is not least covenant. because the Government made clear commitments to other public sector groups but so far have not offered The Government’s decision to implement a pay similar clarity on how the commitments will apply to deal for our Armed Forces amounting to a real-terms services personnel. Will the Minister tell the Committee cut seems to be at odds with the spirit of the covenant. whether the MoD and HM Treasury will undertake to At the very least, the Government should have allowed resolve any outstanding issues on accrued rights as the pay review body to make its recommendations soon as possible, and end the uncertainty over the before deciding to cap pay rises at 1 per cent from next protection of earned pension provision? year. This decision cannot but harm the morale of serving personnel, even while they accept their share Rumours spread like wildfire in the services. Good of austerity, and the PRB rightly makes the point that communications are essential. The PRB stresses the this will have an impact on recruitment. importance of clear, jargon-free messages. I would like reassurance from the Minister that the MoD has a However, my key point today concerns pensions, an communication strategy to ensure that whatever it issue that was raised by personnel of all ranks during a proposes in this complex area is explained and thus visit I made to HMS “Dauntless” recently under the understood at all levels. The PRB asks, too, that in the auspices of the splendid Armed Forces Parliamentary absence of trade union representation, the MoD will Scheme. There is real anxiety over the proposed reforms ensure that service men and women are enabled to to the Armed Forces pension scheme. The scheme is a express concerns about pension changes, and to articulate highly valued part of the total remuneration package priorities for future provision. for the services, and a key recruitment and retention tool. Indeed, Armed Forces pensions are hugely important My final point concerns the importance of the role to satisfaction with the forces’ way of life. played by the AFPRB. The review body’s independence Pensions can be taken at 55. Generally, people stay is vital. It is right that it should question plans for on longer if they believe that they have a good chance further pay increases and should challenge the MoD of getting promoted. Many do not, and there are to show more flexibility on military wages. Service several early-departure payment schemes whereby an men and women trust the AFPRB as an independent, individual can get some pension on leaving. As Major- honest broker, and rely on it to make their case on pay General John Moore-Bick, general secretary of the and remuneration and to keep in mind its remit to take Forces Pension Society, said, the unique nature of account of the particular circumstances of service life. military service and employment patterns means that Those circumstances, and the risks that service men service men and women generally need to draw their and women take on our behalf, should be kept in mind Armed Forces pension for longer than they draw their by us all. GC 283 Armed Forces: Personnel[LORDS] Armed Forces: Personnel GC 284

7.09 pm review if the body, after taking account of how comparators were faring, had been freer to reflect the Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, the House should increasing pressures of service life. The board stated: be most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, “The Chancellor’s announcement in November 2011 of two for bringing this topic to attention. Her experience of further years of public sector pay restraint, with average increases the Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body was extensive, (excluding increments) capped at one per cent, disappointed both as a member in 1993-94 and as the chair from Service personnel who had made clear their expectation that 1999 to 2005. The Minister and Government should we”— pay most careful attention to her remarks and criticisms, the board— and those of other noble Lords who spoke. I will add “would return to making recommendations in the normal way my slant to the thrust of their remarks. following the pay freeze. We emphasised to the Secretary of State during oral evidence that this would be of great concern to our Noble Lords will recall that the early 1970s were a remit group and pressed him on whether there should be special time of acute national economic difficulty. A series of consideration for the Armed Forces”. government steps such as the pay and prices code and I hope that the Minister will say something about that. the Counter-Inflation Act 1973 were applied nationwide. The Board has perforce danced to the Government’s Looking at the Government’s strictures on public sector economic tune. pay, have we not all been here before? However, for the What gets overlooked in these immediate restrictions Armed Forces of today, things are not as they were on pay and increases in charges is the longer-term then. Experiences of dealing with the Cold War and impact on an individual’s financial circumstances. The the threat from the Soviet Union are far removed from baseline for calculating remuneration increases in future the expensive and extended expeditionary warfare of years has been debased and lowered while that for today, in which large numbers of an ever dwindling charges has been raised. As we heard from a number cohort of service men and women are now involved, at of noble Lords, at this sensitive time for morale and greater risk of being killed or severely wounded or of motivation in the services, the importance of treating being long separated from their families. service men and women—as both this Government and the previous one set out in statue and White This significant change was recognised by the Paper—is critical. Positive action, not vapid assurances previous Government in their Command Paper, The that “we are all in this together”, is required to sustain Nation’s Commitment: Cross-Government Support to the calibre of the forces that the nation must have to our Armed Forces, their Families and Veterans, and by defend its interests. this Government with the passage into law of the Armed Forces Covenant last autumn. That special recognition of the distinctive nature and value to the 7.15 pm nation of the Armed Forces receives scant attention in this year’s AFPRB report. The Government’s across- Lord Lyell: My Lords, I apologise to the noble the-board imposition of pay freezes in the public Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and to other noble Lords, for sector treats service personnel once more—as was the speaking now. I did not expect to arrive in time to ask practice in the 1970s and 1980s—on a par with the rest the Minister my very brief question. The noble Baroness, of the public sector. However, it was the prime thrust Lady Dean, will know of the excellent work that our of the Armed Forces Covenant and the previous committee tried to do, I think four years ago, when we Government’s White Paper that the services and their went to Colchester. I was detailed to take account of families were distinct from the rest of society and services family accommodation, and what was said to merited preferential treatment. me then was quite chilling, although things seem to have improved considerably. As this year’s AFPRB report makes clear, far from The Minister does not have to answer this point being independent and able to make its recommendations tonight; he can write to me. In paragraph 4.13, which to the Prime Minister, the board has been directed by begins, Ministers to observe the public sector pay restraints. “In its evidence, the Ministry told us that” This seems somewhat at odds with the response that I got to a recent Written Question about the Government’s something was going on, the penultimate line on the attitude to the AFPRB. I asked the Government whether page is: it was part of their commitment to the military covenant “However, we received a rather more mixed impression on our to implement the recommendations of the Armed visits”. Forces’ Pay Review Body in full. Their reply stated: I will not say that that is necessarily what happened when your Lordships’committee went down to Colchester. “The Government believe that the recommendations of an The report found that 42 per cent of respondents were independent body such as the Armed Forces Pay Review Body satisfied with the quality of maintenance and repairs. (AFPRB) should constitute an integral part of the process used I ask the Minister and indeed the rest of the Committee to determine the pay of the Armed Forces.”—[Official Report, 10/2/12; col. WA 113.] to glance at table A6.4 on page 76, labelled “2011 Armed Forces Continuous Attitude Survey results”. It That hardly describes the process followed this year is encouraging that 57 per cent of respondents declared and is some way, at least, from the assurances given by that they were satisfied with the overall standard of successive Governments in the past that the independent service accommodation, and the figure for satisfaction review body’s recommendations would be accepted with value for money was 65 per cent. So, in spite of unless there were clear and compelling reasons for not the fact that a majority was not entirely happy with doing so. It would have been a more independent one aspect of value for money and service, the results GC 285 Armed Forces: Personnel[23 APRIL 2012] Armed Forces: Personnel GC 286 were encouraging I hope that my noble friend will be of the year and not reappearing since. Growth provides able to give us further encouragement on the issue. I increased tax revenues for government as well as more apologise and thank the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, jobs and lower unemployment. This Government, in for his forbearance. their enthusiasm to cut public expenditure too fast and not pay sufficient regard to the issue of growth, have killed the growth rate in the economy and thus 7.16 pm the increased revenues that they inherited. That has Lord Rosser: I am actually Lord Rosser, not the made the financial situation more difficult than it noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. Anyway, I, too, add my could and should have been, and with it has given us at thanks to my noble friend Lady Dean of Thornton-le- least the intended level of heavy restraint on Armed Fylde for securing this important debate. Forces’ pay over the next two years. In a Written Ministerial Statement on 13 March It is also worth mentioning that a continuation of this year, the Secretary of State for Defence said that severe pay restraint for our Armed Forces lies ahead at he was pleased to confirm that the Armed Forces Pay a time when well over 50 per cent of pay increases in Review Body recommendations would be accepted in the private sector are of at least 3 per cent, and the full. But what he did not remind us of was the fact that economic climate that the Government say necessitates his predecessor had previously told the PRB to confine their approach to severely restricting the pay of the its recommendations to a small overall pay increase to Armed Forces does not also apparently prevent them just those earning £21,000 or less, because of the from implementing next year a tax cut of 5p in the two-year pay freeze imposed across the public sector. pound on incomes in excess of £150,000. The PRB has made it clear that, following its previous report it had heard a strong message from service It is of course not only pay that is an issue, as my personnel about the cumulative impact of the pay noble friend Lady Dean and others have so powerfully freeze, the Ministry of Defence allowance cuts and reminded us. The PRB itself referred to the significance cost-of-living increases on their everyday lives, which of pensions as a top issue for many service personnel. implied a noticeable reduction in real income for many As has already been said, personnel were already personnel. However, any suggestion that the PRB will concerned about how pension changes might affect soon be able to address the concerns also expressed by them, and particularly about how far a commitment service personnel about perceptions of its independence to protect accrued rights would apply and how changes appear to have been dashed. will affect the early-departure provisions in the current pension schemes. Pensions are important to service In his Autumn Statement at the end of November personnel, not least because they will be dependent on last year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer made clear them for rather more years than people in other walks that the Government intended to continue to hold of life, and adverse changes—for example, in the basis back pay in the public sector, including the Armed of determining pensions and determining increases in Forces, with awards at an average of 1 per cent for pensions in payment—will have a much greater cumulative each of the two years following the freeze. The pay financial impact on service veterans and widows than review body has told the Secretary of State for Defence on others. that it believes that the Armed Forces would be disappointed by this, which seems a bit like the On top of that, there are the uncertainties for understatement of the year. It asked the Secretary of personnel because of the redundancy programme at a State to give it a degree of flexibility. This he has time when unemployment is high in the external labour declined to do. Will the Minister confirm that this market, the continuing pressures arising from the sustained continues to be the Secretary of State’s position in high operational tempo, issues over housing, the long relation to the next two years, despite service personnel hours worked by many service personnel, and the regarding the two-year pay freeze as exceptional and impact of separation from families. This is all having making it clear to the PRB that they wanted it to an effect on morale and motivation, as the Armed resume its normal role in 2013? Forces Continuous Attitude Survey shows. The PRB The Government’s argument is that the Armed said that, in general, levels of satisfaction fell in 2011 Forces’ pay has to be frozen and, after that, held back, compared to the 2010 survey results, with significant because the United Kingdom is, to use their words, falls observed around basic pay, allowances and pension “recovering from the deepest recession in living memory”; benefits. Morale was less positive, it said, as was that the overall value of the reward package to Armed satisfaction with service life in general. Forces personnel remains “generous”, with pension The question is: what does the Secretary of State provision being significantly better than in the private for Defence—and I mean the Secretary of State, not sector; and that, because of continued pressure on the Minister—intend to do about this? Is he able to say public finances, public sector pay awards must continue anything about what will happen when the financial to be severely restricted following the end of the pay position improves? The holding back of pay and adverse freeze. changes in allowances and pensions will be permanent, However, a key reason for the continuing freeze and unlike the present financial situation, unless the Minister future heavy restraint on Armed Forces pay is the can give an undertaking that the position will be result of the Government’s economic and financial looked at again as the financial situation improves, policy, which has led to the growth rate of the economy, with a view to reversing the impact of the adverse which had been restored when the Government took effect of current policy on Armed Forces’ pay, allowances office in 2010—some 1 per cent growth in GDP in the and pensions. Since the Government acknowledge the April-June quarter of that year—vanishing by the end unique nature of military life, including the threat of GC 287 Armed Forces: Personnel[LORDS] Armed Forces: Personnel GC 288

[LORD ROSSER] We do understand that prolonged periods away loss of life or life-changing injuries, and we now have from home impact on morale—an important point the military covenant enshrined in statute, will the made by the noble Baroness. We do all we can to Minister back up the Government’s view of service life minimise this and use harmony guidelines to allow for and conditions by giving such an undertaking as I am operational rest. However, there will always be occasions asking about? where specialist skills are needed, often at short notice. The Ministry of Defence is obviously determined This may mean that for some, harmony guidelines to save money. One hopes that the Minister will now cannot be prescriptively followed, but we will make be equally enthusiastic over saving morale and motivation every effort to return the individual to their unit as in our Armed Forces, to which the pay review body soon as possible. The noble Baroness, Lady Dean, has drawn attention. discussed morale at length. We recognise that this is a very difficult time for Armed Forces personnel and 7.24 pm their families. Some tough policy decisions that may The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry have had an effect on morale have had to be made as a of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My Lords, I should necessary part of the department’s contribution to the like to start by congratulating the noble Baroness, overall government programme to reduce the United Lady Dean, on securing this important debate. This is Kingdom’s deficit. a subject about which she is well informed, having As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister chaired the Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body until has repeatedly set out, our combat troops will withdraw 2004, as other noble Lords and noble and gallant from Afghanistan by the end of 2014. Between now Lords said. As a result of her important work, service and then we will be able to reduce our numbers. This men and women trust the AFPRB. As the noble process has already begun. However, there cannot be Baroness, Lady Warwick, said, that is very much some sort of cliff edge in 2014 when all remaining down to the important work of the noble Baroness, troops come out at once. The rate at which troops can Lady Dean. She has influenced Governments—not be reduced will depend on transition to Afghan control just this Government but the previous Government—and in the different parts of Afghanistan. Although we they have listened to her. will maintain a presence for some time after 2014, we She is well aware of the independence of the pay would expect the frequency of deployment to reduce. review body. It retains a fundamental independent Armed Forces pay is frozen, as is the case for all role in ensuring that the remuneration package of our public sector workers, with the exception of those service personnel is sufficient to recruit and retain the earning £21,000 or less, to whom we have given £250 in right people. We value its work, as do the Armed each of the last two years of the pay freeze. Pay has Forces, and the House can be assured that there are no also increased incrementally each year for those who plans to change this important principle. are not at the top of their pay scale—some 75 per cent The 41st report that noble Lords mentioned was of personnel—a protection introduced for the Armed published in March this year, and I am pleased to say Forces to ensure that they were not disadvantaged by that the recommendations have been agreed in full, their lack of contractual entitlement. This is in accordance with many of the changes taking effect from 1 April with the principles of the Armed Forces covenant and this year. However, we cannot ignore the financial has meant that most service personnel will have received crisis and the need to exercise restraint, and that is why an increase in pay during the freeze period. it is necessary to freeze pay. None the less, pay for those earning less that £21,000 has increased, and it is Increase in pay for the next two years will be limited important that we ensure that those who are experiencing to an average of 1 per cent each year. The pay review the greatest challenges receive additional money. For body has already begun its programme of visits to those deployed for an average of six months, individuals service personnel in the United Kingdom and overseas will receive the tax-free operational allowance to the to gauge their views on pay and related issues. We value of £5,280, and, as my right honourable friend always welcome the advice of the pay review body the Chancellor announced in his Budget, council tax and, as we did this year, we will give due consideration relief has doubled to some £600. to its recommendations. With Afghanistan in mind, the deployed welfare The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, mentioned package has been increased. However, our forces are pensions—in particular, the publication of the final deployed not just to Afghanistan, and the noble Baroness report of the Independent Public Service Pensions mentioned in the title of this debate the operational Commission of the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, on 10 tempo. It is true that some service personnel are now March last year, which resulted in a number of on a third or even a fourth tour, and it is testament to recommendations that were accepted as a basis for the work of the strategic defence and security review discussion on the design of new public service pension that we had the required capabilities to achieve what schemes to be introduced from April 2015. My department we did in support of the Libyan uprising. The increased has now commenced its consultation process with separation from loved ones has been recognised and, service personnel and is conducting briefings throughout as recommended by the pay review body, the qualifying the service community. The consultation period ends period between increases in levels of the longer separation on 20 June. However—I address the question raised allowance has been reduced from 240 to 180 days. This by the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick—personnel have means that progression through the 14 levels, ranging now been assured that any changes to the scheme will from £6.69 to £28.24 for each day separated, is attained not affect the value of pension benefits that they earn more quickly. up to 1 April 2015, and that those aged 45 or over on GC 289 Armed Forces: Personnel[23 APRIL 2012] Armed Forces: Personnel GC 290

1 April this year will see no change to the amount of service family accommodation properties and 42 per pension that they will receive or the time at which it cent of single living accommodation bed spaces are can be drawn. now in the top two condition standards. My noble friend Lord Palmer mentioned My noble friend also asked about medals. We worked accommodation, a subject in which I know my noble constructively with the noble and gallant Lord, Lord friend and all other noble Lords who have spoken take Craig, on the issue of the PJM, and I congratulate the a close interest and which we discussed in the House noble and gallant Lord on the resolute line that he on 1 March. We continue to examine accommodation took on that issue. The coalition Government have provision but, in terms of making improvements, the agreed to a fresh review of medals, and I hope that Chancellor has made an additional £100 million available further details will be announced soon. for service accommodation from the financial year The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, mentioned 2013-14. It will be used by the MoD for repairing and that my department was late in providing evidence to refurbishing 650 family homes and buying a further 25. the pay review body. I was not aware of this, and I give While it is necessary to increase the daily charge in him an undertaking that I shall look into it. I will write respect of accommodation, these increases range from to him and copy in all other noble Lords who have a modest 2p per day through to 76p for accommodation spoken today. in the highest standard. Increases are in line with the The noble Lord also mentioned the timing of the rental component of the retail prices index and are Secretary of State’s report to Parliament. The covenant broadly comparable with the costs faced by civilians, report will be produced each year and will consider but with a discount that reflects the disadvantages of the comments made by the PRB. I will pass on the living in service accommodation. This means that, for noble Lord’s recommendation about the timing. a typical three-bedroom property in the highest standard My noble friend Lord Lyell asked me to write on for occupation, occupants of other ranks pay some the issue of service families’ accommodation, particularly £306 per month. in Colchester. I will look into the issue and write to The very basis of the covenant is to tackle disadvantage him and send copies to other noble Lords. incurred as a result of service and to consider special The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked me to give an treatment where appropriate. The covenant and the assurance that the financial situation of Armed Forces pay review body are not related. However, we ensure personnel would be looked at when the financial position that the pay review body is kept informed of our improves. That is, of course, the case; it will be looked at. commitments and changes. I hope that I have answered most questions but, if I In the two minutes left, I will very briefly address have not, I undertake to write to all noble Lords with questions. The noble Baroness, Lady Dean, asked answers to questions that I have not answered. This about troops coming back from Germany. The Defence has been an interesting debate and I am grateful for Infrastructure Organisation is currently considering noble Lords’ contributions. The Committee can be the likely housing requirements of those returning assured that we will continue to listen very carefully to from overseas, including Germany. the pay review body, and we greatly value its work in support of service personnel and their families. My noble friend Lord Palmer asked about the three-year pause in the accommodation improvement The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness programme from April 2013. As part of the MoD’s Fookes): My Lords, that completes the business before work to reduce the funding gap and balance defence the Grand Committee today. The Committee stands priorities, from April 2013 there will be a three-year adjourned. pause in the programme to upgrade lower-quality SFA homes. While this is regrettable, 96 per cent of Committee adjourned at 7.37 pm.

WS 141 Written Statements[23 APRIL 2012] Written Statements WS 142

That he has sought to delay that process by applying Written Statements for a referral to the Grand Chamber after the deadline had passed and after he had heard our case in SIAC is Monday 23 April 2012 evidence of the strength of our arguments and the likelihood of our eventual success in removing him from Britain for good. Abu Qatada Statement Big Society Capital Statement The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department (Theresa May) has made the Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My honourable friend the following Written Ministerial Statement. Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hurd) Yesterday, the European Court of Human Rights has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. informed the Government that late on Tuesday evening, On 21 March last year, the Minister for the Cabinet Abu Qatada applied for a referral of the judgment in Office and I updated the House on proposals and next his case to the Court’s Grand Chamber. He did so on steps for establishing a big society bank that would act the grounds that he would be at risk of torture if he as the central initiative for growing the social investment returned to Jordan. The British courts and the European market in the UK, helping to provide a third pillar of Court itself have already found that, because of the finance for the social sector, alongside philanthropy assurances we have received from the Jordanian and the state. This is an important element of our Government, there is no such risk. strategy to help the sector to become more resilient The Government are clear that Abu Qatada has no and effective. right to refer the case to the Grand Chamber of the The big society bank formally opened its doors to European Court of Human Rights, since the three-month the public on 4 April as Big Society Capital. The new deadline to do so lapsed at midnight on Monday. institution has been capitalised with the first tranche Article 43 of the European Convention on Human of dormant bank accounts and Merlin bank money, Rights explains that a request for referral to the Grand and we will thus have met a coalition priority “to use Chamber must be made “within a period of three funds from dormant bank accounts to establish a ‘Big months from the date of the judgement of the Chamber”. Society Bank’, which will provide new finance for The letter that communicated the European Court’s neighbourhood groups, charities, social enterprises and judgement, dated 17 January, confirmed this, saying other non-governmental bodies”. Today I would like “any request for the referral of this judgement to the to update the House on how Big Society Capital will Grand Chamber must be duly reasoned and reach the work and progress made over the last year. Registry within three months of today’s date.”Therefore Big Society Capital (BSC) is the first social investment the deadline was midnight, Monday 16 April. institution of its kind anywhere in the world. We are Because the European Court has no automatic keen to support more social enterprise, whether it be mechanism to rule out an application for a referral new mutuals, social organisations delivering public based on the deadline, Abu Qatada’s application will services or community groups taking over assets. The be considered by a panel of five judges from the purpose of BSC is to make it easier for these social Grand Chamber. They will take into account the entrepreneurs to access the capital they need. A new deadline, as set out in Article 43 of the Convention, as initiative is needed because the mainstream financial part of their consideration. The Government have institutions are not yet providing that capital. BSC written to the European Court to make clear our case will build a bridge between mainstream finance and that the application should be rejected because it is out the social sector. It will do this by helping to grow the of time. embryonic market of social investment—money that is prepared to blend financial return with social impact. Instead, the Government believe that the case should be heard in the Special Immigration Appeals Commission BSC will be capitalised using the estimated £400 million (SIAC) court, as I outlined in the House of Commons in unclaimed assets left in dormant bank accounts for on Tuesday. Until the panel of the Grand Chamber more than 15 years, alongside £200 million equity makes its decision, however, a Rule 39 injunction investment from HSBC, Barclays, Lloyds TSB and preventing the deportation of Abu Qatada remains in RBS. place. This means that the deportation process and In line with the social investment strategy that we any potential SIAC appeal is put on hold, but we will published in February last year, BSC has been set up resume the process as soon as the injunction is lifted. with four core principles: In the meantime, we will continue to build our case, independent from government; based on the assurances and information we have transparent; received from the Jordanian Government. Abu Qatada remains in detention, and the Government will resist wholesaler; and vigorously any application he might make to be released self-sufficient. on bail. BSC will not be making grants. It will always invest As I said in the House of Commons on Tuesday, because it needs to cover its costs and the mission is to despite the progress we have made, the process of prove and develop the concept of social investment. deporting Abu Qatada is likely to take many months. The wholesale function means that it will only invest WS 143 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 144 in front-line organisations through intermediaries such abolish the Child Maintenance and Enforcement as Big Issue Invest, Charity Bank, the Private Equity Commission and transfer its functions to the Secretary Foundation and Bridges Ventures. There is widespread of State for Work and Pensions. consensus on this positioning. If we were to set it up as The public consultation on the transfer of CMEC a retailer, then we would distort the market and undermine was held from 10 October 2011 to 3 January 2012 and the very intermediaries that we need to grow it. BSC the Government’s response was published on 8 March will act as a cornerstone investor looking to support 2012. I will place copies of both the consultation innovative methods of tackling social problems, such document and the government response in the House as social impact bonds, and encourage others to co-invest, Library later today. significantly increasing the amount of finance available CMEC has responsibilities relating to child to the social sector. maintenance, an issue that affects many families, and Ahead of BSC opening we made early proof of the Government feel it is right that Ministers should concept investments to build the pipeline for the new be directly responsible and accountable for this important organisation. To date, seven in-principle investments work. totalling £7 million have been agreed, including: money This order is subject to affirmative debate in both to help the long-term unemployed set up their own Houses of Parliament and these debates will be timetabled businesses; two schemes supporting vulnerable young in due course. people to get into employment; an affordable housing fund; two community energy projects; and the development of the world’s first ever social stock exchange. China: Neil Heywood All these investments will provide jobs and help Statement disadvantaged groups or communities, supporting economic and social recovery. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth We are grateful to Sir Ronald Cohen and Nick Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable O’Donohoe for the invaluable support that they provided friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and in setting up this institution. Commonwealth Affairs (William Hague) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. I wish to inform the House of developments concerning Chemical Weapons Convention the death of a British national, Mr Neil Heywood, in Statement Chongqing in the People’s Republic of China on 14 November 2011. Mr Heywood’s body was found in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry a Chongqing hotel room on 15 November 2011. of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My honourable On 16 November 2011, consular officials from the friend the Minister of State for the Armed Forces British consulate-general in Chongqing were notified (Nick Harvey) has made the following Written Ministerial of Mr Heywood’s death by fax from the Public Security Statement. Bureau of the Chongqing municipality of China. Chinese The UK’s chemical protection programme is designed officials informed our staff that the cause of his death to protect against the use of chemical weapons. Such a was overconsumption of alcohol. programme is permitted by the Chemical Weapons In line with FCO consular procedure, consular Convention, with which the United Kingdom is fully officials provided immediate and full consular support compliant. Under the terms of the convention, we are to Mr Heywood’s family in China as well as to his required to provide information annually to the family in the United Kingdom. On 18 November, the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons family informed consular staff of their decision to (OPCW). In accordance with the Government’s have Mr Heywood’s body cremated and confirmed commitment to openness, I am placing in the Library this to us both in China and from the UK. An FCO of the House a copy of the summary that has been official duly attended the cremation ceremony. We provided to the organisation outlining the UK’s chemical continue to provide full consular support to Mr Heywood’s protection programme in 2011. family in China and the UK, including to Mrs Heywood, who is a Chinese national holding a valid UK visa. Child Maintenance and Enforcement Foreign Office Minister, Jeremy Browne, was in Chongqing on 15 and 16 November. He met Mr Bo Commission Xilai on the morning of 16 November. Ministers are Statement not routinely told about the death of British nationals or other consular cases as they are so numerous. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department However, we need to make sure that they are told in for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My honourable relevant cases and we will review our procedures. friend the Minister for Disabled People (Maria Miller The Chinese police findings as to the cause of MP) has today made the following Written Ministerial Mr Heywood’s death were called into question Statement. subsequently. Foreign Office officials were first made Following the Government’s review of non- aware of rumours within the British expatriate community departmental public bodies and the passage of the in China that there may have been suspicious Public Bodies Act 2011, and using powers contained circumstances surrounding Mr Heywood’s death from within this Act, I will be laying an order later today to 18 January. WS 145 Written Statements[23 APRIL 2012] Written Statements WS 146

Allegations about Mr Heywood’s death were made The correct information is set out below. by former Chongqing vice-mayor and chief of police Below are the figures for the tidal combined sewer Wang Lijun during a visit to the US consulate in overflows on 5 and 6 June 2011, derived from data Chengdu on 6 February. submitted by Thames Water to the Environment Agency. Prompted by these increasing concerns, FCO officials informed me on 7 February of the case and the Date Outfall Volume (m3) circumstances surrounding it. I immediately instructed 05-Jun-11 Greenwich 114,156 them to make urgent representations to the Chinese Lots Road 27,720 authorities and to seek an investigation into Mr Heywood’s Western 85,590 death. Hammersmith 85,000 On 15 February, after establishing as much information Abbey Mills 99,000 as possible and contacting the family, the deputy head 06-Jun-11 Abbey Mills 476,600 of mission of the British embassy in Beijing met Lots Road 47,700 officials from the consular department of the Chinese Western 72,300 Ministry of Foreign Affairs to convey this message. Total 1,008,066 He informed them of our concerns about Mr Heywood’s death and the suspicion that he had been murdered, and conveyed our formal request that the Chinese These figures are estimated flows and not actual authorities investigate. flows. 3 On 21 February, HM ambassador to China made In addition to the tidal CSOs, an estimated 233,000 m the same request to the Chinese Ministry of Foreign discharged on 6 June 2011 into the Thames from the Affairs Vice-Minister for Europe. storm tanks at Mogden sewage treatment works. Our ambassador repeated the request a week later to the Director-General for Europe. In the absence of Dogs: Irresponsible Ownership a formal Chinese response, on 22 March the FCO’s Statement consular director raised the case in the same terms with a visiting senior Chinese consular official in London. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department On 10 April, before their official public announcement, for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor the Chinese authorities informed HM ambassador to of Holbeach): My right honourable friend the Minister China that an investigation into Neil Heywood’s death for Food and Farming has today made the following had begun and that proper judicial process would be Statement. followed. I am pleased to announce a package of measures to I welcome the fact that the Chinese authorities have tackle irresponsible dog ownership. I apologise to the now committed themselves to undertake the investigation House that this announcement is four weeks later than into Mr Heywood’s death that we sought. We now intended. wish to see the conclusion of a full investigation that In the past few years there has been a sharp rise in observes due process, is free from political interference, the problems associated with irresponsible dog ownership. exposes the truth behind this tragic case and ensures The number of adults sentenced for offences relating that justice is done. to dangerous dogs has increased by 39 per cent from We will continue to engage with the Chinese authorities 855 in 2009 to 1,192 in 2010. The number of dog-related on the progress of the investigation and we stand admissions to hospital has also risen significantly, ready to provide any assistance necessary. FCO officials from 2,915 in 1997 to 6,118 in 2010. In 2009 alone, dog will remain in close touch with Mr Heywood’s family attacks cost the NHS £3.3 million in treating the most as this investigation proceeds. serious cases where victims had to be admitted for treatment. Every year there are numerous reported attacks on Royal Mail, Parcelforce and British Telecom staff. Most of these attacks take place on private Correction to Parliamentary Question property. Between 2007 and 2010, five people were Statement killed following a dog attack in the home; four of the victims were children under the age of four years. Concerns have also been raised with Defra about dog The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department attacks on health visitors and social workers during for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor home visits. of Holbeach): I regret to inform the House that incomplete information was provided in the Answer I gave to Irresponsible dog ownership is a complex problem Lords Parliamentary Question 15908 on 6 March 2012, and there is no single solution. The primary responsibility Lords Official Report, col. WA 416, about which were for ensuring that dogs are kept under proper control the tidal combined sewer overflows that released over must rest with individual owners, who should acquire 900,000 tonnes of storm sewage into the River Thames a dog only if they are prepared to look after it properly on 5 and 6 June 2011, as noted in paragraph 2.6.18 of and make sure that it does not become a nuisance or a the National Policy Statement for Waste Water; and danger to others. the estimates of the tonnage attributable to each tidal Given growing concern about the number of dog combined sewer overflow were incorrect. This was due attacks, the previous Government consulted the public to out of date figures provided by a private company. in 2010 to find out whether the law needed to be WS 147 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 148 changed and, if so, what changes might help. The It is also our intention to introduce regulations consultation found that most people thought that under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 on microchipping powers contained in the existing dangerous dogs legislation to promote animal welfare by making it easier for were inadequate. The police and the dog welfare charities local authorities and rescue centres to quickly reunite said that the criminal law in relation to dogs being stray dogs with their owners. It would also help the dangerously out of control should be extended to police and local authorities to enforce dog and animal cover private property (the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 welfare legislation. Our preferred approach is to make applies only on public land or private land where the breeders responsible for microchipping the puppy before dog is trespassing) and there was also widespread sale. support for compulsory microchipping. Therefore, a further consultation is being held to The responses showed that there was no support for give the public an opportunity to give their views on adding other breeds or types to the list of prohibited these proposed legislative changes. In relation to dogs. However the police specifically made the point microchipping, the options are: (i) requiring all dogs that removing the ban on the four specific prohibited to be microchipped on transfer of ownership, (ii) requiring types, Pit Bull Terrier, Japanese Tosa, Dogo Argentino all dogs to be microchipped from a certain date, and Fila Brasileiro, would significantly increase the (iii) implementing a phased-in process, such as starting risk of dog attacks because these four prohibited types with compulsory microchipping on transfer of ownership were originally specifically bred for fighting, are renowned and after five years moving to mandatory microchipping for their aggressive behaviour and are known to be of all dogs, or (iv) making breeders responsible for disproportionately dangerous when in the hands of an microchipping newly born dogs before (first) sale. This irresponsible individual or when dangerously out of is the responsibility of the breeder or seller and not the control. purchaser. The preferred option is the fourth one. Having considered the replies to the consultation We consider that education also has a significant and further consulted the police, local authorities and role to play in reducing the problems associated with other organisations that are in the front line in dealing irresponsible dog ownership. Government are providing with irresponsible dog ownership, the Government funding of £50,000 to be shared between the RSPCA, have decided that it would be appropriate to extend Battersea Cats and Dogs Home and the Dogs Trust to existing dangerous dogs law in England to cover all foster innovative local community projects to encourage private property. Extending the current law would responsible dog ownership in areas where there are make it enforceable in homes, private gardens and high incidences of dog-related problems. The funding private land where people and dogs are entitled to be, is being provided on the basis that the interventions better protecting the thousands of service workers will be carefully evaluated and the learning disseminated such as medical staff and postmen whose jobs take to help others engaged in working with local communities. them on to private property. However, the proposed In drawing up these measures, Defra has worked extension to the criminal law will not extend to protect with the Home Office to ensure that the new anti-social trespassers who have entered the private property with behaviour measures they are preparing reflect the unlawful intentions. needs of enforcement agencies and enhance their ability to prevent irresponsible dog owners presenting a risk In addition, to ensure the welfare of dogs that have to the general public. become the subject of court proceedings and to ease the costs to the police service, the Government have Local authorities already have powers to designate also decided that it should no longer be necessary for areas of public space as “dog-free zones”, while social the police to seize and kennel dogs pending the outcome landlords are able to lay down rules for their tenants of court proceedings where the police do not consider regarding the keeping of dogs or other animals. Many the dog presents a risk to the public. The requirement local initiatives build on these powers and today’s to seize the dog will not be waived unless the police are announcement compliments them to address the small satisfied that it is in the care of a responsible owner. In minority of dog owners who cause such distress to addition, interim conditions can be placed on the those whom their dogs attack or intimidate. owner, eg requiring the dog to be muzzled and on lead when in public (this would apply in England). We consider that allowing dogs to be exempted EU: Child Abduction from seizure in these circumstances strikes the right Statement balance between protecting the public from dangerous dogs and ensuring that safe and properly looked-after dogs are not unnecessarily removed from their homes. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord We propose to raise the fee of £24 (first set in 1991) McNally): The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State payable by the owner for placing prohibited dogs on for Justice (Kenneth Clarke) has made the following the index of exempted dogs to better reflect the costs Written Ministerial Statement. involved in administering these dogs for their lifetime The Government have decided to opt in to the and thereby reduce the burden on the taxpayer (this European Commission’s proposals for the acceptance would apply throughout Great Britain). Further funding by the member states, in the interests of the EU, of the is also being given to the Association of Chief Police accession of Albania, Andorra, Armenia, Gabon, Officers to support the training that it provides for dog Morocco, the Russian Federation, Seychelles and legislation officers in order to ensure that there is a Singapore to the 1980 Hague convention on the civil hub of dog law expertise in every police force. aspects of international child abduction. WS 149 Written Statements[23 APRIL 2012] Written Statements WS 150

All EU member states are party to the successful The conclusions may make reference to remaining 1980 Hague convention, the primary civil law international issues, such as the lack of humanitarian access to instrument which provides a mechanism to seek the conflict areas and a number of remaining political prompt return of wrongfully removed or retained prisoners. We would also like the conclusions to stress children to their country of habitual residence. that any commercial engagement by EU companies When a country wishes to accede to the convention, should promote the highest standards of integrity and it is necessary for an existing contracting state to corporate social responsibility. accept that country’s accession before the convention Syria can apply between them. It is the European Commission’s We are working for conclusions that give the EU’s view that there is exclusive competence on the EU for full support to the UN advance monitoring mission to all matters relating to the 1980 convention and that Syria and to UN Security Council Resolution 2042. therefore member states must now be authorised by Agreed on 14 April, the resolution authorises an advance the EU to accept accessions by third countries and monitoring mission and calls on the Syrian Government must do so collectively through Council decisions. to implement urgently and comprehensively Kofi Annan’s Although not anticipated in the proposals, the six-point plan. We may also work for a further round Government believe that the UK opt-in under the of EU sanctions on the regime to be adopted at the Protocol to Title V of the Treaty on the Functioning FAC should we decide further pressure on the regime of the European Union applies and it has therefore is appropriate. asserted its right to choose whether to opt in and has Afghanistan decided that it is in the UK’s best interests to do so. We expect Ministers to discuss EU support for The Government have taken this decision Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) ahead of notwithstanding the fact that they dispute the the NATO Chicago summit and the Tokyo conference Commission’s claim to exclusive competence and they on development in Afghanistan. We want the EU to are still determining whether each of the countries make a significant contribution to the ANSF and seeking to accede to the convention will be able to Afghanistan’s development needs. operate the convention effectively. Sahel/Mali The Government believe that the wider significance of these proposals for external competence mean that We expect Ministers to be presented with conclusions it is in the UK’s interests to participate fully in these reiterating the EU’s support for the Economic Community negotiations, including having the ability to vote. These of West African States-led (ECOWAS) response to proposals must be agreed by unanimity within the last month’s coup d’état in Mali. The conclusions Council. should also reiterate the importance of implementing the EU’s Strategy for Security and Development in the Sahel, including the Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP) mission to Niger. We want the EU to EU: Foreign Affairs Council and reaffirm its support for the prompt regional response General Affairs Council to the coup that led to the inauguration of an interim Statement civilian President on 12 April. We also want to record our concerns about the deteriorating security situation in the north of the country where, in the absence of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth state control, Tuareg insurgents, some with links to Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable al-Qaeda, have taken control of key cities. friend, the Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington) Middle East Peace Process has made the following Written Ministerial Statement: We expect a substantive discussion on the Middle My right honourable friend the Secretary of State East peace process, with a particular focus on the for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs will attend settlements and Area C. Baroness Ashton is likely to the Foreign Affairs Council on 23 April. I will attend brief on the recent quartet principals’ meeting. the General Affairs Council on 24 April. Both meetings will be held in Luxembourg. Iran Foreign Affairs Council (FAC) Baroness Ashton will brief Ministers following E3+3 (UK, France, Germany, US, China and Russia) talks The High Representative of the European Union with Iran in Istanbul on 14 April. We will underline for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness Ashton that we welcome this new round of engagement and of Upholland, will chair the Foreign Affairs Council. that Iran must urgently take concrete and practical Burma steps to restore international confidence in the nature We expect conclusions that recognise positive progress of their nuclear programme. in Burma against the EU benchmarks agreed at the General Affairs Council (GAC) Foreign Affairs Council of 23 January.These benchmarks include the release of political prisoners, a number of The GAC will be chaired by the Danish EU presidency. initial ceasefire agreements with some ethnic groups, There are two main items on the GAC agenda in and the generally positive conduct of by-elections on April: the multiannual financial framework (MFF) 1 April. We will also push for the suspension of EU and cohesion policy. The first will be a discussion on sanctions except those relating to export of military resources for structural and cohesion funds and the equipment. The Prime Minister set out our approach common agricultural policy (CAP), and text for during his visit to Burma of 13 April. the negotiating box in headings 1 and 2 of the budget. WS 151 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 152

The presidency intends for the negotiating box to First, we have strengthened subsidiarity and the establish parameters for the 2014-2020 multiannual margin of appreciation by securing agreement to insert financial framework discussions at June European these key principles into the convention itself. The Council. The second will be on cohesion policy. The member states will amend the admissibility criteria of presidency seeks agreement of a partial general approach the convention. And we have sent an unequivocal on elements of the package of regulations published message from all 47 states to the court that it should by the Commission in October. The package of regulations from now on use the existing criteria to ensure that it establishes how cohesion funding is allocated, how the consistently does not reconsider cases that have already funds are used and the rules that govern their use. been properly handled by national courts, unless they My overriding objective for the discussions on the raise a serious question of interpretation or application MFF will be for the negotiating box to reflect the of the convention. UK’s objective of delivering a restrained EU budget, Secondly, we have agreed measures to improve the limited to a real-terms freeze. Within a restrained efficiency and effectiveness of the court by cutting the budget, a greater share should be seen in priority areas time limit for making applications to the court from (such as external action, research and climate change). six months to four; giving the court tools to improve On structural and cohesion funds, we have a principled the efficiency with which it processes cases; and amending position that supports targeting of funds to poorer the convention so that the court can routinely get rid member states and regions where they are needed of trivial cases. most and can offer the most value for money. We Thirdly, we have secured measures that will ensure oppose any extension of macroeconomic conditionality that the court and its judgments are of the highest (the proposal for which allows the Commission to possible quality by making sure that the main development suspend all or part of structural and cohesion fund of case law is only by the Grand Chamber, comprising payment if effective action to meet macroeconomic the court’s most senior judges; improving procedures goals is not taken). There should also be a very substantial to ensure that the judges of the court are experienced reduction in the size of the CAP budget with a higher and well qualified for the job; and making sure that proportion of CAP for projects which offer benefits to the rules of office allow every judge to serve a full the wider society, such as climate change reduction, nine-year term on the court. and away from market-distorting subsidies. Member states also agreed a further process for On cohesion policy, the partial general approach longer-term reform of the court. should cover aspects of how the funds are used, including These represent significant changes to the convention ex-ante conditionality, which establish requirements system, which now need to be implemented fully, and to be met before member states can receive structural the necessary convention amendments drafted and and cohesion funds, and monitoring and evaluation, agreed. Gaining the unanimous agreement of 47 countries which ensure that the funds have been used as intended. is no easy task and we are grateful for the constructive negotiations we have held with our European partners. European Court of Human Rights We expect the effect of the measures in the declaration Statement to be that fewer cases are considered by the court. Where cases do go to Strasbourg, the court should be able to focus more on the important cases and do so The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord more quickly. The result is a strengthening of the McNally): My right honourable friend the Lord human rights protection for the 800 million citizens Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Kenneth across the Council of Europe. Clarke) has made the following Written Ministerial A copy of the declaration will be placed in the Statement. Libraries of both Houses. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and I wish to update the House on the Government’s efforts to reform the European Court of Human Rights Export Control as part of the UK’s chairmanship of the Committee of Statement Ministers of the Council of Europe. The Brighton declaration, the package of reforms to the court which has been the priority for the UK’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department chairmanship, was formally adopted on Friday. This for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): was the culmination of the Brighton conference, where My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice Ministers, Foreign Ministers and senior officials Business, Innovation and Skills (Dr Vince Cable) has from across the 47 Council of Europe member states made the following Written Ministerial Statement. met to discuss the UK chairmanship’s package of Further to my Written Ministerial Statement of reforms. 7 February on strategic export control, I would like to The declaration itself is the result of a process that update the House on progress towards increasing the the UK took over when it assumed the chairmanship transparency of the export licensing process. My officials in November. The Prime Minister outlined his ambitions have held meetings with representatives of the exporters for reform of the court in a speech to the Council of and non-governmental organisations—these have been Europe’s Parliamentary Assembly in January. Through constructive and indicated that there is broad support the Brighton declaration, we have succeeded in agreeing for the proposals, although exporters understandably substantial reforms in each of the areas he set out. have some concerns about the burdens of making WS 153 Written Statements[23 APRIL 2012] Written Statements WS 154 regular reports on their usage of open licences. National Measurement Office Subsequently, my department issued a discussion paper Statement and questionnaire in order to obtain the widest range of views on specific aspects of the proposals. The paper and questionnaire are available at: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/eco/docs/12-682- for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): transparency-export-licensing-discussion-paper.pdf My right honourable friend the Minister of State for The closing date for responses is 20 April and I would Universities and Science (David Willetts) has today encourage all interested parties to contribute their made the following Statement. views. I will provide a further update as appropriate, at I have tasked the National Measurement Office to the very latest before the House rises for the Summer provide policy support to Ministers on measurement Recess. issues and a measurement infrastructure which enables innovation and growth, promotes trade and facilitates fair competition and the protection of consumers, Highways Agency and Network Rail: health and the environment. I have agreed with the NMO that its objectives for Fire Risk Audit Reports 2012 to 2015 will be to: Statement 1. increase economic growth, innovation and social impact through a world-class scientific measurement Earl Attlee: My honourable friend the Parliamentary infrastructure; Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning) 2. promote competition and fair trading by providing has made the following Ministerial Statement. a modern legal measurement regime; Progress is being made with considering these reports 3. provide good value for money metrology services; and I will make a Statement shortly. and 4. protect the interests of the public, business and the environment by enforcing relevant legislation. Mali The agency will also be expected to ensure that Statement professional, value-for-money corporate services are provided to support delivery of the above objectives, inform good decision-making and enhance its reputation The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth in a robust control environment. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable In support of these objectives I have set as specific friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and ministerial targets the following for 2012-13: Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. William Hague) has made 1. improve performance of the NMS programmes the following Written Ministerial Statement: over this corporate plan period as measured by the We have temporarily withdrawn diplomatic staff value scorecard developed for this purpose (to be from our embassy in Bamako and suspended all determinedbyascorecardtechniqueacrossallprogrammes in-country services given the instability in Mali and developed to provide a basis for measuring this the possibility of a swift deterioration in security. improvement); Consular assistance is being provided by the British 2. amend the Hallmarking Act to permit UK assay embassy in Senegal. British nationals requiring urgent offices to operate overseas by October 2012; consular assistance can also contact the embassy of 3. support business by ensuring 94 per cent of any EU member state in Bamako. We are keeping the meter examiner appointments, manufacturer decision under review and will reopen the embassy authorisations/consents and modifications to meter when the situation stabilises. approval and decisions are made within five business The UK is deeply concerned by recent political days of receipt of all necessary documentation; instability in Mali. We condemn any actions that 4. improve customer satisfaction within certification undermine democratic rule and welcome ECOWAS-led services as shown by an increase of 5 per cent in efforts which are returning the country to constitutional, “very satisfied” customers for the last calendar year civilian rule. We continue to work with our international survey; partners in the UN and in other multilateral fora to ensure that recent progress is maintained, including 5. achieve an increase in income of 5 per cent for the holding of elections. certification services from the 2011-12 financial year; As I said to the House on 11 May 2011, there will be no strategic shrinkage of Britain’s overseas network. 6. generate a positive 3:1 net contribution to consumers I am committed to extending the Foreign and and the environment as well as the low-carbon Commonwealth Office’s global reach and strengthening economy through the activities of the enforcement its influence. The temporary withdrawal of diplomatic authority (to be measured by comparing the cost staff and the suspension of services at our embassy in base against the value of products made compliant, Bamako do not signify a move away from this withdrawn from the market or affected by a formal commitment. They in no way reduce the UK’s business improvement plan); commitment to active diplomacy in Mali and the 7. reduce non ring-fenced admin costs by 14 per wider Sahel region. cent in cash terms over this corporate plan period WS 155 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 156

(using as a baseline the original forecast for 2010-11—the 200,000 Londoners are expected to benefit from the level of reduction is the same as that planned for London Mayor’s Participation Programme, with more BIS); and than 10 per cent of these previously inactive. Mayoral 8. reduce overhead costs per non-overhead staff programmes are also upgrading facilities and encouraging full-time equivalent by 2 per cent in cash terms from more people to become coaches. the 2011-12 financial year (excluding technical laboratory 118 major sporting events will have been staged in costs). the UK from 2007 to 2012, covering 41 out of 46 Olympic The corporate plan period referred to is the financial and Paralympic sports. years 2012-13 to 2014-15. 30,000+ elite international athletes have competed in these events (2007-2009), with 27,000 officials and volunteers supporting them. Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 These events are providing a £105 million boost to Statement the economy, with major events staged in 35 towns and cities across the country over the last five years. Baroness Garden of Frognal: On Monday 16 April Beyond 2012, the UK will continue to reap the 2012, my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under- benefits that come from hosting major events, including Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and the Rugby League World Cup (2013), Commonwealth Sport (Hugh Robertson) made the following Written Games (2014), Rugby Union World Cup (2015), World Ministerial Statement. Athletics Championships at the Olympic Stadium (2017), In December 2010 the Government set out their and Cricket World Cup (2019). plans for the legacy from the 2012 Olympic and Across the world the UK’s international sports Paralympic Games in the document Plans for the legacy programme, International Inspiration, has reached Legacy from the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games, more than 12 million young people in 20 countries which I published under cover of a Written Ministerial through sport activities and engagement with partner Statement. I undertook to provide updates. My Governments and their agencies. department has recently published Beyond 2012—London Growth 2012 Legacy Story, which tells the emerging story of the legacy from the 2012 Games. I have placed copies A £3 billion economic boost is expected through in the Libraries of both Houses. the GREAT campaign to drive trade, investment and tourism. This document sets out some legacy achievements in a number of areas. These reflect the depth and 98 per cent of the £6 billion-worth of Olympic Park breadth of the legacy reaching across the country, contracts have gone to UK-based companies—two-thirds which Jacques Rogge, the President of the International of them small or medium-sized enterprises. Olympic Committee, refers to in Beyond 2012 as a 10,000+ business opportunities have been made “legacy blueprint for future Games hosts”. Some of available via CompeteFor, the brokerage service set up the legacy achievements are listed below. for the Games and now used for many other major Sport projects. Government’s changes to the National Lottery shares, 94 per cent of the £1 billion-worth of LOCOG coupled with increased tickets sales, should mean contracts have gone to UK businesses, equating to £560 million more in lottery income for sport over the over £900 million. next five years. £30 million is to be invested in the UK’s first ever Over 12,000 schools across England are signed up National Sports and Exercise Medicine Centre of for the School Games with the first national finals on Excellence to promote sport and physical activity within the Olympic Park in May 2012. healthcare. £1 billion is to be invested in youth sport over the 50 industry events are being led by the Olympic next five years through the new youth sport strategy, Delivery Authority throughout 2012 to share lessons which will include an additional £100 million investment of the Games with professionals across the construction in sports facilities. sector. 6,000 community sports clubs are to be created by £2.3 billion-worth of contracts are on offer in Rio local schools, as well as better sports facilities and and Sochi over the next four years, with some London more professional support for colleges and universities. 2012 contractors already on board. 60 per cent of government money provided to £1 billion of extra business for UK firms is expected national sports bodies is to be focused on the key 14 to from Games-related trade campaigns. 25 age group, with a new payment-by-results system providing added rigour. 200 Business Ministers and global chief executive officers are expected at the Global Investment Conference Up to 1,000 local sports venues are to be upgraded in July 2012. under the £135 million Places People Play programme, which also includes £30 million to support a regional 3,500 meetings between UK companies and potential network of major sport and leisure centres. overseas buyers are expected to be initiated by the 100,000 adults will participate in multiple Olympic British Business Embassy. or Paralympic sports under a nationwide Gold Challenge 4 million extra visitors are expected to visit the UK programme by the end of 2012. from 2011 to 2015. WS 157 Written Statements[23 APRIL 2012] Written Statements WS 158

£2 billion additional spend by visitors to the UK is 20 per cent of the London 2012 workforce has been expected in the four years after the Games. recruited from the six Olympic host boroughs, with 90 million people will see the GREAT campaign 13 per cent previously unemployed and 7 per cent adverts across 14 key cities worldwide: Beijing, Berlin, registered disabled. Los Angeles, Melbourne, Mumbai, New Delhi, New 10,000 people are now employed at the new Westfield York, Paris, Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo, Shanghai, Stratford Shopping Centre, at least 2,000 of whom are Sydney, Tokyo and Toronto. local people who were previously unemployed. 70 per cent of the population in each of the target One in five jobs in east London are now in the cities will see the advertising on billboards, on TV or creative industries. East London also boasts the largest in the cinema. cluster of artists and arts organisations of any capital 12,000 additional tourism jobs are expected to be city in the world. created through increased domestic tourism over three 300 companies are now based in east London’s years. thriving “Tech City”, which has grown from just 15 £500 million additional money is expected to be companies in the three years leading up to the Games. spent by British tourists as a result of the VisitEngland 6,000 jobs could be created in the environmental campaign, which is built around a unique 20.12 per technology sector as a result of the green enterprise cent discount offer. district set up in east London. People £200 million has been spent on upgrading Stratford 95 per cent of people will be within easy reach of Regional station, with new lifts, staircases, reopened the Olympic Torch Relay during its 8,000 mile journey. subway, wider platforms and a new mezzanine entrance. Approximately 70,000 volunteers will have been The Docklands Light Railway has been extended chosen as Games Makers to help in the staging of the by 2.6 kilometres, with a new branch to Stratford Olympic and Paralympic events. There are 2,000 roles International and three new stations opened. for Young Games Makers aged 16 to 18. Capacity of the Jubilee line has been increased by 40 per cent of applicants for Games Maker roles 33 per cent with upgrades to signalling and additional say that London 2012 has inspired them to volunteer trains running at peak times. for the first time. 220 buildings were knocked down to make way for 8,000 Team London Ambassadors will guide visitors the Olympic Park, with 98.5 per cent of demolition across the capital during the Games, with similar waste being recycled. programmes in place in other Olympic and Paralympic cities. 2.3 million cubic metres of soil were excavated and 2,000+ community projects have officially been inspired cleansed of industrial pollutants as part of the most by the Olympics and Paralympics. ambitious soil clean-up operation ever seen in the UK. 24,000 schools form the Get Set network, which is The accident frequency rate of 0.16 for the Olympic teaching millions of children about the Olympic and Park is well below the industry average and below the Paralympic values. national average for all workplaces. 14 million people have taken part in or attended 4,000 recycling bins and composting bins will be Cultural Olympiad performances. placed throughout the venues and park to help meet the commitment to no landfill waste during the Games. 1,000 events across the UK will form part of the London 2012 Festival, providing 10 million opportunities £10 million is being invested in upgrading pedestrian to enjoy the best cultural performances from the UK and cycling routes to Olympic venues, with more than and abroad. 60 projects promoting greener travel inspired by London 2012. 4 Paralympic flames will be lit in UK capital cities that will be united at Stoke Mandeville. 14 million is the target for the number of sustainably 8,000 inspirational torchbearers will carry the Olympic sourced meals provided during the Games, setting new Flame during the 70 days it will spend travelling across standards for supply chain management. the UK. There will be 45 hectares of wildlife habitat on the £2 million-worth of commissions for the Cultural Olympic Park, including reedbeds, grasslands, ponds Olympiad have come through the Unlimited Fund, and woodlands, with 525 bird boxes and 150 bat the UK’s largest arts programme for disabled and deaf boxes. people. 120,000 plants from 250 species from around the There will be 150 hours of Channel 4 coverage for world will be planted in the London 2012 Garden, the Paralympic Games, aiming to double the TV audience helping to showcase British horticulture. compared to the 2008 Games in Beijing. 350,000 wetland plants will be planted as part of 200 disabled athletes will compete across eight disability the UK’s largest ever urban river and wetland planting, sports at the National School Games finals, with all creating a new haven for wildlife. participating schools including opportunities for disabled A new postcode—E20—has been created to serve people in their competitions. the five neighbourhoods being created across Queen East London Elizabeth Olympic Park. 46,000 people worked on the Olympic Park during 11 schools and nurseries and three health centres construction, a fifth of them from local communities. will serve local communities across the park. WS 159 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 160

10,000 jobs are expected to be created on the Olympic Schools: Behaviour Park alone—all of them within an inviting parkland Statement setting. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prosecutions: Public Interest in Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Schools (Mr Michael Media Cases Gove) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement Statement. The Government are determined to help teachers The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace address the poor attendance and bad behaviour of of Tankerness): My right honourable friend the Attorney- some pupils, which disproportionately affects the chances General (Dominic Grieve) made the following Written of disadvantaged children. Ministerial Statement on 18 April 2012. The poor attendance or lateness of a number of The Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) has pupils can disrupt their own education and that of today launched a public consultation on his interim other pupils. Quickly these children begin to fall behind guidelines for prosecutors on assessing the public interest their peers and often they never fully catch up with in cases affecting the media. The DPP undertook to gaps in their skills or knowledge. Over time these produce the guidelines when he gave evidence on pupils become disillusioned with education and by 8 February 2012 to the inquiry being conducted by years 10 and 11 they are lost to the system. These Lord Justice Leveson into the culture, practices and pupils are the most likely to become NEET when they ethics of the press. The guidelines set out the additional leave school and easily fall into anti-social behaviour considerations which are relevant when prosecutors and crime. assess whether a prosecution is required in accordance On 4 April last year I announced the appointment with the code for Crown prosecutors. Each case will be of Charlie Taylor, a head teacher with a track record considered on its own facts and on its own merits in radically improving behaviour in some of the most before a decision is made on prosecution. Such decisions troubled schools, as the Government’s expert adviser are also likely to be finely balanced, as prosecutors on behaviour. I am pleased to inform the House that must carefully consider the public interest served by he has agreed to serve in this role for another year. the journalist when set against the overall criminality. On 1 September I asked Charlie Taylor to review The guidelines have been issued on an interim basis and report on school attendance and alternative provision. as they are the subject of a public consultation exercise He has now published his report on school attendance, that will last for three months. The DPP will publish which I would like to bring to the attention of the his final guidelines later this year, once he has considered House. I have responded and welcomed his the responses to the consultation, and any cases that recommendations. have fallen to be considered by prosecutors during the The recommendations should lead to attendance period in which the interim guidelines have been in problems being addressed at an earlier stage before place will be reviewed in light of the final guidelines if bad habits become ingrained. Starting early with the changes have been made. Copies of the interim guidelines attendance of younger children at primary school will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. should reduce the number who develop truancy problems when older. The range of school absence data will be Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre improved to help teachers to pick up and deal with Statement poor attendance patterns across the age range. Having sent a strong message that attendance is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department important, we must equip schools to tackle the minority for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): of parents who do not heed that message. I agree that The Government have reviewed the decision to market the current penalty notice scheme should be simplified. and dispose of the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Today, the Government have made changes to the Centre taken by the previous Government in April Education (Penalty Notices) (England) Regulations 2009. It has concluded that the Department for Communities 2007 to increase the amounts stated on the notices and Local Government should retain its freehold interest from this September. The Government will explore in the building in line with current Government Property ways to make payment of penalty notices swift and Unit policy to retain freeholds in the Whitehall area as certain. they offer maximum flexibility. We will also take steps to implement the other A business case developed last year considered recommendations in the report as early as we can. alternative delivery options for the conference business. Copies of Charlie Taylor’s report, and my response To inform their view of the options, the Government to him, are being placed in the Libraries of both will be undertaking pre-market engagement to test the Houses. market appetite and their viability, beginning in May 2012. Subject to the outcome of that engagement, the Scottish Partnerships: Criminal Liability Government will then decide whether the Queen Elizabeth Statement II Conference Centre conference business, currently operating as a government trading fund, should continue The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace under the existing arrangements or be marketed to of Tankerness): My right honourable friend the Secretary external providers. However, any disposal or privatisation of State for Scotland (Michael Moore) made the following should maximise value for money for taxpayers. Ministerial Statement on 17 April 2012. WS 161 Written Statements[23 APRIL 2012] Written Statements WS 162

I am publishing today a consultation paper that bombings in Bali, Indonesia on 12 October 2002; sets out the proposed reform of Scots law on two bombings in Kusadasi, Turkey on 16 July 2005; topics: unincorporated associations and criminal liability attacks in tourist sites in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt of partnerships. 23 July 2005; The consultation document seeks views on two bombings in Dahab, Egypt 24 April 2006; topics: first, the proposal to attribute legal personality to non-profit-making unincorporated associations where bombings in Marmaris, Turkey 27 August 2006; they meet certain statutory criteria; and, secondly, and reform of the law on criminal liability of dissolved attacks in Mumbai, India 26 November 2008. Scottish partnerships and their partners, with the principal Later this year we intend to lay before Parliament a intention to address a loophole in Scots law that separate statutory scheme for compensating future allows Scottish partnerships to escape prosecution for victims of overseas terrorism, made under the Crime potentially serious offences by dissolving. and Security Act 2010. That scheme will commence The main proposals for unincorporated associations shortly after parliamentary approval has been received. are that becoming a Scottish association with legal personality (SALP) should not be dependent on any registration requirement and that office bearers and Tobacco: Standardised Packaging members will not incur any personal liability by acting Statement as an office bearer or member. Accordingly, SALPs will have limited liability. The proposals are based on work by the Scottish The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Law Commission which led to a report and draft Bill of Health (Earl Howe): My right honourable friend the in 2009 on reforming the law on unincorporated Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley) associations in Scotland and a report and draft Bill in has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. 2011 on reforming the law on criminal liability of The Government have today published Consultation dissolved Scottish partnerships. on the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco Products. The commission has indicated that it supports the The consultation is being undertaken, with the agreement consultation process and will continue to work with of the devolved Administrations, on a UK-wide basis. the UK Government to finalise a Bill that it is hoped In March 2011, the Government published Healthy will come before Parliament within its current term. Lives, Healthy People: A Tobacco Control Plan for England, which set out how our comprehensive, evidence- based programme of tobacco control will be delivered, Terrorism: Victims within the context of the new public health system, Statement over the next five years. The tobacco control plan included a commitment to consult on options to reduce the promotional impact of tobacco packaging, including The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord standardised packaging. McNally): My honourable friend the Parliamentary Smoking remains one of the most significant challenges Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Crispin to public health across the United Kingdom and is the Blunt) has made the following Written Ministerial primary cause of preventable death, accounting each Statement. year for over 100,000 deaths in the United Kingdom. I am announcing today (Monday 16 April) the One in two long-term smokers will die prematurely launch of an ex gratia scheme to make payments to from a smoking disease. Smoking harms those around victims of terrorism who were injured overseas on or smokers too. The Royal College of Physicians estimates after 1 January 2002 and who continue to have an that about 2 million children currently live in a household ongoing disability as a direct result of the injuries they where they are exposed to cigarette smoke. sustained. From today victims will be able to apply for Treating smoking diseases is costly. In England, a payment under this scheme. around 5 per cent of all hospital admissions among The aim of the ex gratia scheme is to demonstrate adults aged 35 and over are attributable to smoking. solidarity with those in our community who have been Reducing the uptake of smoking by children and affected by terrorist incidents overseas, taking into young people is a key public health goal. Most smokers account the nature of terrorist attacks as a political take up smoking regularly before they turn 18 years statement and attack on our society. old. In England alone, an estimated 330,000 young We believe it is proportionate and necessary for the people under the age of 16 try smoking for the first scheme to focus limited resources on those who have a time each year. clear and sufficient connection to the UK. Therefore, Most smokers say they want to quit. Quitting smoking payments will be made to British, EU and EEA victims can be difficult, but smokers who quit for good can with a minimum of three years residence in the UK quickly reduce their risk of smoking diseases and live immediately prior to a terrorist attack that is designated longer, whatever their age. for the purposes of the ex gratia scheme. The United Kingdom is recognised across the world Responsibility for the designation of terrorist attacks for having comprehensive, evidence-based tobacco control for the purposes of the ex gratia scheme falls to the policies. But we need to do more to stop young people Foreign Secretary. The Foreign Secretary has designated taking up smoking and to help those smokers who the following incidents: want to quit. WS 163 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 164

Health and wellbeing in our communities would be Today I am publishing new rules and incentives to significantly improved in the long term if smoking strengthen the control of public spending. rates were substantially reduced. Between 2007 and The Government have set out their plan to significantly 2010, the rates of smoking in England remained static. reduce the structural current budget deficit over the While smoking rates have more recently started to course of this Parliament. While good progress has decline again, we need to secure significant further been made, the scale of the challenge calls for a more reductions if we are to meet the national ambitions we robust and consistent approach to managing public set out in Healthy Lives, Healthy People: A Tobacco spending. Control Plan for England. The Improving Spending Control document has been Standardised packaging for tobacco refers to measures worked up with finance directors across Whitehall. It that may be taken to restrict or prohibit the use of sets out a new framework for improving financial logos, colours, brand images or promotional information management across the public sector and how that on packaging other than brand names and product framework will be supported by incentives and penalties. names that are displayed in a standard colour and font All organisations spending public money will be style. Standardised packaging is sometimes referred to required to collect and share better information on as “plain packaging”. public spending, improve the skills needed to deliver The Government have an open mind at this stage their spending plans and identify areas of their budget about introducing standardised packaging. Through that can be reprioritised in case unforeseen spending the consultation, we want to understand whether there pressures emerge. is evidence to demonstrate that the standardised packaging The new framework provides the necessary incentives of tobacco products would have an additional public and penalties to reform financial management. health benefit, over and above existing tobacco control Departments that can demonstrate a good track record initiatives. The consultation asks whether standardised of spending control will be rewarded with greater packaging could improve public health by: freedom within their budgets. Others will be subject to reducing the appeal of tobacco products to greater central Treasury control. consumers; This document sits alongside, and is consistent increasing the effectiveness of health warnings on with, Managing Public Money and the Consolidated the packaging of tobacco products; Budgeting Guidance. Copies of the document have been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses. reducing the ability of tobacco packaging to mislead consumers about the harmful effects of smoking; and Treasury: Infrastructure Cost Review having a positive effect on smoking-related attitudes, Statement beliefs, intentions and behaviours, particularly among children and young people. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): My right honourable friend the Chief Secretary Through the consultation, we are also interested in to the Treasury (Danny Alexander) has today made exploring whether there might be other implications if the following Written Ministerial Statement. standardised packaging requirements were introduced, The Government have today published the first including any potential effect on the illicit tobacco annual progress report on the three-year infrastructure market. cost review programme launched in March 2011. The consultation will be open for responses from Over the past 12 months, the Government have 16 April to 10 July 2012. Any person, business or worked with industry to put in place the mechanisms organisation with an interest is encouraged to respond. through which real reductions in the costs of constructing Consultation on the Standardised Packaging of Tobacco economic infrastructure can be achieved and sustained—to Products has been placed in the Library. Copies are enable taxpayers and utility bill payers to get more for available to honourable Members from the Vote Office less. The programme is on track and the report gives and noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. The examples of good practice, consistent with the consultation document is available from and consultation recommendations of the cost review, where individual responses can be submitted online at: savings of over £2 billion have been identified. http://consultations.dh.gov.uk A key measure of success is the application of cost Any decisions to take further policy action on review principles to reduce delivery costs on the UK’s tobacco packaging will be taken only after full priority infrastructure projects and programmes identified consideration is given to consultation responses, evidence in the National Infrastructure Plan 2011. and other relevant information. Copies of the document have been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and are available on the Treasury website at: www.hm-treasury.gov.uk. Treasury: Improving Spending Control Statement UK Convergence Programme Statement

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): My right honourable friend the Chief Secretary Sassoon): My honourable friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander) has today made to the Treasury (Mark Hoban) has today made the the following Written Ministerial Statement. following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 165 Written Statements[23 APRIL 2012] Written Statements WS 166

Following my Statement of 27 March I have today is obliged to submit a convergence programme annually made available in the Vote Office and Printed Paper to the European Commission under Article 121 of the Office advanced copies of the UK’s convergence Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union programme ahead of next week’s debates under Section 5 (the “Lisbon” treaty). of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993. The debates are scheduled for 24 April in the House This requires the Government to report to Parliament of Commons and 25 April in the House of Lords. The for their approval an assessment of the UK’s medium-term convergence programme will be submitted to the EU economic and budgetary position. This assessment by 30 April. comprises the Budget report and the Office for Budget Responsibility’s (OBR’s) economic and fiscal outlook. A copy of the published programme will be deposited This then forms the basis of the UK’s convergence in the Libraries of the Houses and the document will programme, which is therefore based entirely on be available electronically via the HM Treasury website information already presented to Parliament. The UK following the debate.

WA 287 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 288

their wide-ranging expertise in this area to work closely Written Answers with the cell’s newly appointed commander to enhance their knowledge of maritime security practices, including Monday 23 April 2012 during his recent visit to the UK. Afghanistan Agriculture: Eggs Question Question Asked by Lord West of Spithead Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Astor of Hever on To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to 20 March (WA 153), what were the total infrastructure the Written Answer by Lord Taylor of Holbeach on costs incurred by the United Kingdom Government 26 March (WA 195), why the latest European Union in Afghanistan in the years 2007-08, 2008-09 and egg marketing regulations did not provide a prohibition 2009-10. [HL16698] on the marketing of class B eggs or products derived from such eggs not produced in a compliant system; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry whether class B eggs and products were formerly of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The total infrastructure exempt from any claim as to production compliance costs incurred, by financial year (FY), on operations with welfare standards; why they approved regulations in Afghanistan by the Ministry of Defence are set out without class B prohibition; and when they did so. in the following table: [HL16744]

FY 2007-08 FY 2008-09 FY 2009-10 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor £149 million £162 million £236 million of Holbeach): European Union (EU) rules on the The cost of operations is claimed by the Ministry of marketing standards for eggs were last updated in Defence from the Treasury special reserve. 2007. This was largely an exercise of consolidation aimedatbringingtogetherearlierregulationsandamendments in one place without altering the basic provisions. On African States: Maritime Safety and this basis, the UK supported the introduction of the Security rules which are directly applicable in all member states. The rules on the marketing standards for eggs deal Question with issues such as the quality characteristics for class Asked by Viscount Waverley A and B eggs and how such eggs should be marketed. The rules are not designed to enforce welfare standards To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether a for laying hens nor do they set marketing requirements representative of the United Kingdom was invited for egg products. to attend the March 2012 Economic Community of UK Ministers and officials have met with the Central African States-Economic Community of Commission on a regular basis over the past year to West African States Maritime Safety and Security encourage a robust approach to enforcement of new Conference in Cotonou, and, if so, who was considered minimum standards for the protection of laying hens for attendance; what was the purpose of the conference; within the legal framework that is available. We have whether a United Kingdom representative attended also suggested using the EU rules on the marketing and, if not, why not and whether budgetary restraint standards for eggs to help bring about compliance. was a factor; and whether the United States, Belgium and France were represented. [HL16761] Agriculture: Transmissible Spongiform The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Encephalopathy Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): British officials were invited to attend the March 2012 Economic Question Community of Central African States-Economic Asked by Lord Vinson Community of West African States (ECOWAS)Maritime Safety and Security Conference in Cotonou. The purpose To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to of the meeting was for regional states to agree and sign the Written Answer by Lord Taylor of Holbeach a memorandum of understanding on maritime safety on 1 March (WA 363–4), what is the incidence of and security. Unfortunately, due to prior commitments, transmissible spongiform encephalopathy in the United no officials were able to attend. Both the United States Kingdom sheep flock. [HL16424] and France were represented, although the Government are not sighted on whether Belgium was represented. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department However, the Government continue to work closely for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor with ECOWAS, and both UK-based officials and of Holbeach): Great Britain—the joint descriptive report officials based in the region have attended other meetings for scrapie surveillance of sheep and goats in 2010, with ECOWAS in recent months. In addition, last year published on the Animal Health and VeterinaryLaboratory the UK funded the creation of a maritime cell and Agency (AHVLA)’s website at http://vla.defra.gov.uk/ since its creation, the Government have been using science/docs/sci_tse_stats_scrapie.df, details the incidence WA 289 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 290 and prevalence of classical and atypical scrapie in Classical Atypical Overall Great Britain between 2002 and 2010, with tables scrapie Overall scrapie atypical showing the numbers of animals tested each year, in prevalence classical prevalence classical Overall each surveillance group. for active scrapie for active scrapie scrapie surveillance prevalence surveillance prevalence prevalence The next edition of the report, updated for 2011, Year (%) (%) (%) (%) (%) will be published in the summer. In the mean time, a table published on the AHVLA’s website at http:// 2008 0.048 0.048 0.096 0.096 0.144 vla.defra.gov.uk/science/docs/sci_tse_stats_sheep.pdf 2009 0.000 0.066 0.000 0.000 0.066 details the numbers of sheep tested in each surveillance 2010 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 group in 2011 and January-February 2012. The summary below gives a brief comparison of the prevalence of The prevalence of classical scrapie in healthy animals classical and atypical scrapie in 2005 with that in 2007 over 18 months slaughtered for human consumption and 2011: in Northern Ireland has been 0% over the past three years. Classical scrapie—the prevalence of classical scrapie in healthy animals over 18 months of age slaughtered The prevalence of atypical scrapie in healthy animals for human consumption (abattoir survey) has reduced over 18 months slaughtered for human consumption by 66% between 2005 (0.1% of all animals tested) and in Northern Ireland was 0.164% (1 case) for 2011 and 2011 (0.03%) but has remained unchanged between 0% over the previous two years. 2007 (0.02%) and 2011 (0.03%). The reductions in No cases of either classical or atypical scrapie have prevalence in this survey between these years are not been found in sheep found dead on farms during the statistically significant. In sheep over 18 months of last three years. age found dead on farm (fallen stock survey), the Details of confirmed cases of classical and atypical prevalence of classical scrapie has reduced by 92% scrapie in Northern Ireland since 2000 are published between 2005 (0.32% of all animals tested) and 2011 at http://www.dardni.gov.uk/index/publications/pubs- (0.025%) and by 80% between 2007(0.13%) and 2011 dard-animal-health/publications_animal_health_ (0.025%). The reductions in prevalence in this survey and_welfare-newpage-5.htm. between these years are statistically significant. Atypical scrapie—the prevalence of atypical scrapie in healthy animals over 18 months of age slaughtered Air Ambulance Service for human consumption (abattoir survey) experienced Question hardly any change between 2005 (0.14% of all animals tested) and 2011 (0.15%) although in 2007 it was 50% Asked by Lord Empey lower (0.07%) than in 2011 (0.15 %). The reduction in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the prevalence in this survey in 2007 is not statistically average time taken for patient removal by air ambulance significant and could be due to sampling variability. In in the United Kingdom, from picking up a patient sheep over 18 months of age found dead on farm to arrival at hospital. [HL16696] (fallen stock survey) , the prevalence of atypical scrapie experienced a 60% increase between 2005 (0.06% of all animals tested) and 2011 (0.1%) , and a 20% increase The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department between 2007 (0.08%) and 2011 (0.1%). The increases of Health (Earl Howe): The National Health Service in prevalence in this survey between these years are does not operate air ambulances—they are run and not statistically significant. funded by independent charities. The department therefore does not collect information relating to air ambulance It is important to remember that these figures performance. correspond to the two sub-groups of the sheep population that are tested by the active surveillance system. The abattoir survey data represent the best approximation Air Quality to the true prevalence of scrapie infection in the national sheep flock. Questions Northern Ireland—no comparable report is available Asked by Lord Berkeley for Northern Ireland. Annual prevalence of scrapie in sheep, as a percentage of the population, is: To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have complied with the terms of the temporary and Classical Atypical Overall conditional exemption for compliance with dangerous scrapie Overall scrapie atypical airborne particles (PM10) granted by the European prevalence classical prevalence classical Overall Commission on 11 March 2011. [HL16775] for active scrapie for active scrapie scrapie surveillance prevalence surveillance prevalence prevalence Year (%) (%) (%) (%) (%) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department 2002 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor 2003 0.043 0.086 0.000 0.000 0.086 of Holbeach): In July 2011, the Commission confirmed that the UK Government had provided all the necessary 2004 0.000 0.139 0.000 0.000 0.139 information on actions being taken to reduce the risk 2005 0.338 0.338 0.000 0.000 0.338 of exceedences of the daily limit value for particulate 2006 0.171 0.303 0.019 0.019 0.322 matter (PM10) as set out in the Commission decision 2007 0.056 0.111 0.083 0.083 0.194 of 11 March 2011. WA 291 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 292

Asked by Lord Berkeley incentivise smaller servings by providing smaller measures as the default, and providing large measures only To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they when specifically requested. Premises licences and club will complete the five-yearly review of the air quality premises certificates that authorise sales of alcohol monitoring network required under Article 5 of already contain a mandatory condition that still wine Directive 2008/50/EC on ambient air quality and (when served by the glass for consumption on the cleaner air for Europe, due in 2011. [HL16776] premises) must be available to customers in 125 millilitre To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the measures, and that customers are made aware of the concentrations of dangerous airborne particles (PM10) availability of these measures. in Neasden Lane in 2011 change the status of the Asked by Lord Willoughby de Broke Greater London zone. [HL16777] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Article 5 of Directive they have made of whether their proposal for minimum 2008/50/EC includes provision for a five-yearly review pricing on alcohol is compliant with European of the classification of air quality across UK zones for Union law. [HL16805] the purpose of assessing air quality. The main source of data for this assessment is from the national monitoring Lord Henley: The legal advice which the Government network supplemented by national modelling. The have received on this issue is subject to legal privilege. classification report is currently being finalised and We do not, therefore, believe it appropriate to disclose will be made available later this year. this advice (or any summary of it). The local authority monitoring station at Neasden The Government are currently in discussion with Lane is associated with a local industrial site and is set the EU Commission on this issue. up for the purpose of local air quality management. It does not meet the siting criteria in the 2008 directive and does not form part of the national air quality Armed Forces: Afghanistan monitoring network. Nevertheless, the Government Question are supporting the local authority, working with the Environment Agency and the Greater London Authority, Asked by Lord Empey to reduce the particulate matter (PM10) pollution in To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the the vicinity of the site. average time taken for the evacuation of wounded Asked by Lord Berkeley service personnel in Afghanistan from the incident location to the nearest treatment centre. [HL16697] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the United Kingdom submitted plans and programmes for nitrogen dioxide for 17 zones including Greater The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry London to the European Commission under Article 23 of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Casualties on the rather than Article 22 of Directive 2008/50/EC on battlefield are normally evacuated by helicopter as it ambient air quality and cleaner air for Europe, due provides the fastest and most reliable method. This task is a coalition responsibility provided by UK and to be submitted in 2011. [HL16778] US aircraft. For the current Operation Herrick 15 deployment, Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The Government are between October 2011 and 5 March 2012 the average committed to improving air quality to protect public time taken to evacuate wounded UK service personnel health and the environment. The air quality plans categorised as urgent to a deployed field hospital submitted to the Commission in September 2011 set facility was 36 minutes from the time of the casualty out how the limits for nitrogen dioxide would be met report being made. in the shortest possible time. Where this date was after 2015, plans were submitted under Article 23, consistent with Commission advice. Armed Forces: Aircraft Question Alcohol Asked by Baroness Tonge Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government which companies Asked by Lord Beecham in Israel supply them with unmanned aerial vehicles. [HL16683] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in developing their alcohol strategy, they will consider The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry requiring licensees to offer to serve wine in 125 millilitre of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): No Israeli company glasses. [HL16717] directly supplies unmanned air systems (UAS) to the Ministry of Defence. The Hermes 450 UAS is operated The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): by the British Army under a service provision contract The Government’s Alcohol Strategy, published on awarded to Thales UK in 2007. Elbit Systems, a 23 March, sets out our intention to work with industry, company based in Israel, provides the UAS assets to through the Responsibility Deal Alcohol Network, to Thales UK. WA 293 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 294

Thales UK is also the prime contractor for the Asma Al-Assad Watchkeeper system, which will replace the Hermes 450. UAVTactical Systems Ltd., a joint venture company Question owned by Elbit Systems and Thales, provides the Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Watchkeeper air vehicle under a sub-contract from To ask Her Majesty’s Government under what Thales UK. legal authority the European Union can refuse entry to Asma Al-Assad, as a British subject and citizen of the European Union, to the United Kingdom or any other member state of the Union. [HL16767] Armed Forces: Global Combat Ships Question The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Council Decision Asked by Lord West of Spithead 2011/782/CFSP provides for the restriction on admission to the territories of member states of “persons responsible To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action for the violent repression against the civilian population they are taking to ensure a steady workload at in Syria, persons benefitting from or supporting the United Kingdom shipyards until the construction regime, and persons associated with them”. Mrs Asma of the Type 26 global combat ship is started. Al-Assad has been sanctioned under these criteria. [HL16579] We do not routinely comment on the immigration status of individuals. In accordance with UK immigration law, any person who has British citizenship cannot be The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry refused entry to the UK. However, British citizens of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The Ministry of subject to EU travel bans can be refused entry to other Defence (MoD) is committed to working with our member states of the European Union. industrial partners to manage the warship building workload and to transform the industrial base to create a sustainable UK maritime sector. Association of Chief Police Officers The terms of business agreement (TOBA) signed Questions between the MoD and BAE Systems Maritime—Naval Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough Ships (BAES MNS—then BAE Systems Surface Ships) in July 2009, provides the framework for this ongoing To ask Her Majesty’s Government what resources work. Under the auspices of the TOBA, MoD and police authorities in England provide to support BAES MNS are working closely together to ensure the work of the Association of Chief Police Officers, that industrial transformation reflects the available and how that resource is audited. [HL16546] workload while preserving the necessary capabilities to build, for example, the Type 26 Global Combat The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): Ship (GCS). The information requested is not held by the department. As the Type 26 GCS is still in its assessment phase, The Association of Chief Police Officers is a private it is too early to confirm details of the planned build limited company and is not owned or controlled by programme. These decisions will not be taken until the the Home Office. main gate investment decision point, which, on current Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon plans, is scheduled for the middle of this decade. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what effect elected police commissioners will have on the existence and activities of the Association of Chief Police Officers. [HL16757] Arts and Media Honours Committee Question Lord Henley: I expect police and crime commissioners to engage with a range of policing partners in order to Asked by Viscount Astor cut crime, both within their force area and working collaboratively across force boundaries. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to appoint a new chairman of the Arts and Media Honours Committee. [HL16448] Asylum Seekers Question Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The current chair of the Asked by Lord Laird Arts and Media Honours Committee, Lord Stevenson, To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many was appointed in 2008 for an initial three-year term. asylum applications were received last year; which He has, by mutual agreement, remained chair of the were the top 10 countries from which asylum applicants committee beyond his initial term to provide continuity arrived last year; how many of the total had entered during the current period of refreshment of the the United Kingdom on a visa; what were the types committee’s membership. Any future vacancy will be of visa and numbers per type; and how many publicly advertised in the normal way in a timeframe applications in the total were rejected in the first yet to be agreed. instance. [HL16743] WA 295 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 296

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The total number of asylum applications and the top for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): There are no 10 countries of nationality for asylum applications are plans to regularly collect statistics about levels of poverty shown in the table below. among asylum-seeking, refugee and migrant children. The top 10 countries from which the asylum applicants Information on the levels of poverty among this group arrived are not available as they are not systematically is not currently available separately and it would be recorded. difficult to provide it in the future. This is because the Information on the visa status of those applying for main source of income data, the Family Resources asylum is not available, nor is whether the visa application Survey, is a snapshot sample survey of private households. had been rejected in the first instance. These figures This means that the sample size for households containing can only be obtained at disproportionate cost. asylum-seeking, refugee and migrant children will be very small and the cost to extend the sample to achieve Data on the number of asylum applications in 2011 a representative sample would be excessive. It may also that were refused asylum, humanitarian protection or be the case that the response rate from households discretionary leave (i.e. on a cohort basis) are not containing such children will be lower than usual and currently available but are due to be published in therefore results may not be representative. There is Immigration Statistics on 30 August 2012. However, also no adequate sampling frame to conduct a separate the table below provides the number of initial decisions survey of poverty among asylum-seeking, refugee and to refuse asylum, humanitarian protection or discretionary migrant children. leave during 2011, which do not necessarily reflect applications made in the same period. Note that although levels of poverty in asylum-seeking, Data on asylum and visa applications are available refugee and migrant children are not available separately, in the Asylum and Before Entry excel tables of the they are currently included in the child poverty statistics quarterly Immigration Statistics. The latest release of unless they live in households that have been resident Immigration Statistics October-December 2011 is available in the UK for less than six months or live in communal in the Library of the House and the Home Office addresses such as hostels, hotels and boarding houses. science website at http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/ Asked by Baroness Lister of Burtersett science-research/research-statistics/migration/ migration-statistics1/ To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in the light of the Children’s Society report I Don’t Top 10 asylum applicant nationalities and refusals, excluding Feel Human, they will incorporate the situation of dependants, 2011 children and young people from asylum-seeking, Number refugee and migrant communities into their child Total refusals poverty strategy. [HL16596] of asylum/ Asylum HP/DL at applications initial decision The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 1 Iran 2,485 1,231 Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The Government 2 Pakistan 2,411 1,640 published their first child poverty strategy in April 3 Sri Lanka 1,758 1,289 2011, and will publish their next one in 2014. The 4 Afghanistan 1,271 993 strategy covers all children who may be at risk of 5 Eritrea 810 243 poverty, and notes that certain groups within society 6 China 777 579 are overrepresented among families experiencing, or 7 Libya 721 483 at risk of, relative income poverty. All unaccompanied 8 Nigeria 714 546 children are entitled to support from their local authority 9 Sudan 689 168 under the Children Act regardless of their immigration 10 Bangladesh 612 395 status. Additionally, destitute asylum seekers who have Other 7,556 4,281 children are supported by the UK Border Agency. Nationalities This support lasts until they leave the United Kingdom Total 19,804 11,848 or they are granted leave to remain and are therefore Notes free to obtain work or access the mainstream benefits Data for 2011 are provisional figures. system. Total refusals information is based on initial decisions and do not necessarily relate to applications made in the same period and exclude the outcome of appeals or other subsequent decisions. Aviation: London Airports Asylum Seekers: Children Question Questions Asked by Lord Laird Asked by Baroness Lister of Burtersett To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in flights were made in the past five years out of each the light of the Children’s Society report “I don’t of the four London airports; how many were passenger feel human”, they will regularly collect statistics or freight flights; how many were transit flights; about levels of poverty among asylum-seeking, refugee how many of the total were domestic; and how and migrant children. [HL16595] many of the total were international. [HL16742] WA 297 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 298

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The number of flight The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth departures at each of the London airports in the past Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): I refer the noble five years, by type of flight, is given in the table below. Lord to the Answer I gave on 21 March (Official Information on the number of transit flights at UK Report, WA 165). While all cases are individual, there airports is not held centrally. are a number of pending cases which bear comparison with Mr Al Singace’s and so we have not raised his Air transport movements departing from each London airport, 2007-11 individual case specifically. Thousands We do raise specific cases with the Bahraini authorities, 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 including together with European Union colleagues, Total flight departures where we think it is necessary and appropriate on Gatwick 129.5 128.1 122.7 116.8 122.3 humanitarian grounds. We maintain that everyone, Heathrow 238.0 236.7 230.2 224.7 238.2 whether they took part in any political protests or not, London 38.6 42.1 33.5 30.0 30.6 should have access to the medical treatment they need City when in custody. As we have said previously, we expect Luton 41.6 42.8 37.6 34.3 36.0 the Government of Bahrain to meet all their human Stansted 95.9 88.6 77.9 71.3 68.3 rights obligations by ensuring their citizens can exercise Total 543.6 538.4 501.9 477.1 495.3 the universal human rights and freedoms to which they are entitled and which they have committed to Of which: uphold. Passenger flights Gatwick 129.4 128.0 122.7 116.7 122.1 Heathrow 236.5 235.3 228.9 223.5 236.9 Banking: Barclays Bank London 38.6 42.1 33.5 30.0 30.6 City Question Luton 40.2 41.5 36.7 33.5 35.2 Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Stansted 90.7 83.4 73.0 66.5 63.5 Total 535.4 530.1 494.7 470.3 488.3 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Cargo (freight) flights they have made of the Barclay’s corporate survey of companies. [HL16797] Gatwick 0.1 0.2 0.0 0.1 0.2 Heathrow 1.5 1.4 1.3 1.2 1.3 London 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 City The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Luton 1.4 1.3 0.9 0.8 0.9 for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Stansted 5.3 5.3 5.0 4.7 4.8 The Government are aware of this survey and routinely Total 8.2 8.2 7.2 6.8 7.0 consider evidence from a wide range of sources. Domestic flights Gatwick 24.8 24.5 24.4 24.1 22.8 Heathrow 29.9 30.6 26.3 23.6 23.0 Banking: Coutts London 10.1 9.1 8.0 6.8 5.9 City Question Luton 6.9 6.5 5.8 4.6 4.9 Asked by Lord Bradshaw Stansted 14.2 13.3 10.6 9.6 8.2 Total 85.9 84.1 75.1 68.7 64.8 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will be responsible for paying the fine imposed by International flights the Financial Services Authority on Coutts, owned Gatwick 104.6 103.6 98.3 92.7 99.5 by the Royal Bank of Scotland, and what measures Heathrow 208.1 206.2 203.9 201.1 215.2 will be taken against the directors of that bank. London 28.5 32.9 25.5 23.2 24.6 [HL16791] City Luton 34.7 36.3 31.8 29.7 31.1 Stansted 81.7 75.3 67.4 61.6 60.1 The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Total 457.7 454.3 426.8 408.4 430.5 Sassoon): The Government’s shareholding in the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) is managed on a commercial and arm’s-length basis by UK Financial Investments Bahrain Ltd (UKFI), a company which is wholly owned by the Government. Question RBS retains its own independent board and Asked by Lord Patten management team to manage itself commercially without To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to interference from shareholders, including the Government. the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford Accordingly, the bank itself will be responsible for on 21 March (WA 165), whether they will now raise paying the fine imposed by the Financial Services the case of Dr Al Singace and his medical care with Authority (FSA) on its subsidiary Coutts. the Bahraini authorities; and, if not, why not. Action against directors of the bank is a matter for [HL16748] the FSA. WA 299 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 300

Banks: Credit and Debit Cards with the BBC were written up in the business case, which was also deposited in the Library of the House Question on the 23 February 2012. Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they will take to end surcharges on credit or debit Belarus card transactions. [HL16670] Questions

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Asked by Lord Patten for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment On 23 December 2011, the Government announced they have made as to the use of (1) capital punishment their intention to consult on implementing the payment and (2) torture, in Belarus. [HL16749] surcharges provision of the Consumer Rights Directive (CRD) ahead of the June 2014 deadline. This provision will not impose a total ban on payment surcharges for The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth credit or debit card transactions. Instead, for contracts Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Belarus’s use of the within scope of the CRD, it prohibits traders from death penalty has declined over recent years. Belarus is adding payment surcharges which exceed the cost borne one of the top five priority countries in the Government’s by them for accepting that means of payment. Strategy for Abolition of the Death Penalty. We therefore We intend to issue a consultation document this raise the issue with the Belarusian authorities on a spring to seek views on the timing of implementation regular basis, both in multilateral fora and bilaterally. among other issues. Responses to that consultation On 7 December, we secured a rare statement from will inform our subsequent action. the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe condemning the sentencing to death of two Belarusian citizens for carrying out bomb attacks on the Minsk Banks: London Interbank Offered Rate Metro in April 2011. Many international observers Question had serious concerns about the conduct of the trial. Most recently, on 2 February, senior Foreign and Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Commonwealth Office officials told the Belarusian To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Ambassador of their concern at the sentencing. The they have made of proposals for tighter controls Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth over the London Interbank Offered Rate (Libor). Affairs, my right honourable friend the Member for [HL16795] Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), also wrote to the Belarusian Foreign Minister on the same day in his capacity as chair of the Committee of Ministers to The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord urge the authorities not to carry out the executions. Sassoon): The setting of the London Interbank Offered Rate (LIBOR) is not a regulated activity under the The two individuals—Dzmitry Kanavalaw and Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. The methods Uladzislaw Kavalyow—were executed on 14 March, used to calculate LIBOR are publicly available, as are unusually soon after sentencing and without their the data made available by contributor banks. The families being informed in advance. On 22 March, we process is regularly reviewed by market participants. secured another statement by the Committee of Ministers, The British Bankers’ Association is consulting on which comprises all 47 member states of the Council the future operation of LIBOR. of Europe, deploring the executions and urging Belarus to declare a formal moratorium of the death penalty as a first step towards abolition. BBC: World Service Trust We have received credible reports that a number of detainees have been subjected to torture and inhumane Question treatment in Belarusian jails. Two ex-presidential Asked by Lord Laird candidates, Ales Mikhalevich and Andrei Sannikov, have made public assertions that they were tortured. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to While human rights organisations have often cited the Written Answer by Baroness Northover on poor standards of treatment in Belarusian prisons, it 15 March (WA 87), whether they will place in the appears that political prisoners have been targeted. Library of the House a copy of the full proposal for The Minister for Europe, my right honourable friend the grant of £90 million, submitted to the Department the Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington) expressed for International Development by BBC Media Action his concern about this in a public statement on on 8 July 2011; and whether they will publish any 28 September 2011 and we raise the issue regularly in associated correspondence between the department bilateral contacts in London and Minsk. Unfortunately, and the BBC on this matter in 2011. [HL16582] Belarus has not adopted any of the international legal instruments which would make it possible for a formal Baroness Northover: The full proposal for the grant monitoring mission from an appropriate multilateral of £90 million from BBC Media Action was deposited organisation such as the United Nations, the Organisation in the Library of the House on the 23 February 2012. for Security and Co-operation in Europe or the Council The outcome of the proposal appraisal and discussions of Europe. WA 301 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 302

Asked by Lord Patten concerns about the situation in Belarus and called for the immediate release and rehabilitation of political To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment prisoners. they have made as to the position of Andrei Sannikov The UK also secured two statements by the Committee and Ales Bialiatski, who have been imprisoned of Ministers of the Council of Europe in our role as since the 2010 elections in Belarus. [HL16750] chair. The first was on 7 December 2011 condemning the sentencing of two Belarusian citizens to death. The second was on 22 March 2012 deploring the Lord Howell of Guildford: We and our European execution of the two individuals. Both statements Union (EU) partners recognise both Andrei Sannikov were agreed by all 47 member states of the Council of and Ales Bialiatski as political prisoners. Andrei Sannikov Europe. stood in the flawed 19 December 2010 presidential election and was arrested on trumped-up charges during the brutal crackdown that followed. On 12 March 2011, Benefits he was sentenced to five years’ imprisonment for “organising or participating in a mass riot”. Since Question then, he has been regularly denied access to legal Asked by Lord Beecham representation and we have received credible reports that he has been subject to mistreatment and torture. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much The Minister for Europe, my right honourable friend they have spent in the 2011-12 financial year on the Member for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington), expressed promoting the take-up of welfare benefits by those his deep concern at these reports on 28 September 2011. entitled to them; and how much they plan to spend We also raise Mr Sannikov’s case regularly in bilateral in the next financial year. [HL16714] contacts in London and Minsk. On 23 November 2011, Ales Bialiatski, chair of the respected human rights organisation Viasna and vice- The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department president of the International Federation of Human for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The department Rights (FIDH), was sentenced to four and a half does not promote benefits; we provide advice, support years’ imprisonment in the harshest category of prison and guidance to claimants on the benefits they may be on what the UK and its EU partners consider an entitled to and how to claim these benefits through ungrounded charge of “tax evasion on a large scale”. front-line services and through printed and online We see this as another example of an attack against an information. The department has not spent money in individual based on their role as a human rights the 2011-12 financial year on promoting the take-up of defender. Mr Lidington publicly condemned the welfare benefits, and we have no planned expenditure conviction on 24 November 2011. to promote take-up of welfare benefits for the next financial year. At the March Foreign Affairs Council, the EU agreed further targeted economic measures against the financiers of the Belarusian regime. We have made clear to the authorities in Minsk on a number of Broadcasting: Television Licences occasions that they must release and rehabilitate all Question political prisoners immediately. Until they do so, the UK will continue to press for the EU to introduce Asked by Lord Laird further sanctions. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Asked by Lord Patten the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 15 March (WA 88), how many prosecutions for television To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they licence fee evasion were lodged and then withdrawn last raised the issue of human rights in Belarus with in 2009 and 2010; what was the estimated cost of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and the prosecutions proceeded with in those two years; Development in Europe. [HL16751] and whether they will consider requiring the BBC to pay for any court and prosecution costs involved. [HL16652] Lord Howell of Guildford: The UK, with our European Union partners, raises the issue of human rights in The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Belarus on a regular basis in the Organisation for McNally): The number of persons proceeded against Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). In 2011, for television licence evasion at magistrates’ courts in the UK and 13 other OSCE states supported invoking England and Wales whose case was subsequently the Moscow Mechanism, which triggered an independent withdrawn was 17,984 in 2009 and 21,994 in 2010. fact-finding mission to review the human rights situation in Belarus. Although the Belarusian Government refused Data collected centrally by the Ministry of Justice to co-operate with the OSCE, the result was a and held on the Court Proceedings Database do not comprehensive report covering serious, gross and include information on the cost of proceedings. systematic human rights violations. On 29 March, the There are no plans to require the BBC to contribute UK strongly supported a statement made on behalf of towards court and prosecution costs. Under the terms the European Union, which underlined our serious of the current licence fee settlement, the Government WA 303 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 304 committed to no new financial requirements or fresh Our hope for Burma is that it will become a peaceful, obligations of any kind being placed on the BBC prosperous and democratic country in which all citizens and/or licence fee revenue except by mutual agreement. have increased access to economic opportunities, Annual court proceedings data for 2011 are planned healthcare and education. for publication in May 2012. Children: Conflict Situations Questions Burma Asked by Baroness Tonge Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what evaluation Asked by Baroness Cox they have made of the statement made by Baroness Ashton of Upholland on 19 March regarding the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they deaths of children in conflict situations. [HL16711] will make representations to the Government of Burma about granting citizenship status to the Rohingya ethnic national people. [HL16607] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We note Baroness Ashton’s remarks and that her office has since issued a The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth clarification. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Our ambassador in It is right that Baroness Ashton addresses the issue Rangoon raises regularly the ongoing discrimination of violence against children, wherever that may occur. of the Rohingya with the Burmese Government, including The European Union has for many years been engaged most recently with the Home Minister. The Secretary in action on protecting children and children’s rights, of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my as well as addressing specific issues such as violence right honourable friend the Member for Richmond against children and children affected by armed conflicts. (Yorks) (Mr Hague) urged the Burmese Government Asked by Baroness Tonge to recognise the full citizenship rights of the Rohingya when he met his counterpart during his visit in January. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what We regularly talk to Rohingya groups both inside representations they have made to the Government and outside the country to monitor their situation, of Israel following the condemnation by Prime and are in contact on the ground with UNHCR (the Minister Netanyahu of Baroness Ashton of Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Upholland’s statement on 19 March regarding the Refugees). We will continue to raise this with the deaths of children in conflict situations. [HL16712] Burmese Government and to discuss with international partners. Lord Howell of Guildford: Officials at our Embassy Asked by Baroness Cox in Tel Aviv have discussed this issue with the Israeli authorities, including Deputy National Security Adviser To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Lerman in the week beginning 18 March. The Israeli representations they have made to the countries Government have confirmed that Israeli Prime Minister providing investment and aid to Burma to ensure Netanyahu has spoken to Baroness Ashton about her that the ethnic national peoples of Burma receive comments. We note that her office has since issued a adequate compensation for any resulting loss of clarification. land or livelihood, and to ensure that any negative impacts on those peoples and the environment are minimised. [HL16608] Children: Parenting Question Lord Howell of Guildford: We believe that any Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno investment in Burma should be responsible and take account of the local people and environment, so that To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in the positive effects of that investment will be felt the light of their response to the Norgrove Family across Burma. Our policy currently discourages trade Justice review, they will consider introducing legislation with Burma. However if that were to change in response to ensure that childcare providers and statutory to future progress, we would expect UK companies to bodies treat both parents of a child equally. lead the way in terms of responsible investment and [HL16643] to encourage others to invest in the same way. We are also ready to work with the Burmese Government to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for help them implement international guidelines on Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): We strongly believe responsible investment. that mothers and fathers, working together, are the We are committed to working with other development best people to make arrangements about their children’s partners to support efforts to build peace in ethnic lives. We are putting children at the heart of the areas and to ensure that development assistance reaches process, so that their needs are the paramount concern those most in need. in all family law proceedings. WA 305 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 306

The Early Years Foundation Stage (EYFS) came revised guidance to try and cover every eventuality, or into force in September 2008 and is clear that all act as practitioner’s handbook. We must start from the providers have a responsibility to ensure that diversity underlining principle that skilled professionals will be of individuals and communities is valued and respected trusted to use their own judgment when assessing the and that no child or family is discriminated against. needs of individual children. The reformed EYFS, which will come into force in September 2012, will provide similar assurances. It will also make clear that providers must have the name and address of every parent and carer who is known China to the provider (and information about any other Question person who has parental responsibility for the child) and which parent(s) or carer(s) the child normally Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool lives with. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Maintained schools should, wherever possible, ensure estimate of the number of Tibetans who have self- that they record the contact details of both parents, immolated in the last 12 months; what reports they even when a parent no longer lives with the child. This have received regarding the self-immolation of a is not a matter left to the discretion of individual youth in Delhi on 26 March; and what discussions schools. Under relevant education legislation, parents they have had with the Government of China regarding (including those with parental responsibility or who the situation of the Tibetan people. [HL16737] have care of the child) must receive specified statutory information about their child. We also intend to introduce into the Children Act The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth 1989 a legislative statement of the importance of Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Since 16 March 2011 children having a relationship with both their parents there have been 21 immolations confirmed by the after separation, where that is safe and in the child’s Chinese state media. best interests. We have also seen reports about Jamphel Yeshi, who self-immolated at a protest in New Delhi on 26 March and died on 28 March. Children: Safeguarding Children I raised our concerns about the situation in Tibet Question with the Deputy Party Secretary of the Tibet Autonomous Region, Hao Peng, on 7 December. Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno The Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Affairs, my honourable friend the Member for Taunton have any plans to amend the report Working Together Deane (Mr Browne) raised concerns about self- to Safeguard Children: A Guide to Inter-agency Working immolations with Vice Foreign Minister Madame Fu to Safeguard and Promote the Welfare of Children Ying during his visit to China in November last year. to include specific reference to circumstances where Mr Browne also wrote to the Chinese Ambassador a child is being deprived of a full and continuing regarding the situation at Kirti Monastery and called relationship with one of his or her parents. for restraint. He made a statement on 25 January [HL16642] following reports of shootings of protesters in Tibetan areas, calling for restraint, and for a resolution of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for underlying grievances. Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): In our response to the Officials in London have also raised their concerns recent Family Justice Review, we announced our intention with the Chinese Embassy in London, and staff at our to introduce a legislative statement on the importance Embassy in Beijing with the Chinese Ministry of Foreign of children having a continuing relationship with both Affairs and relevant provincial authorities. Our officials their parents after separation, where it is safe and in in China make regular visits to Tibetan areas. We the child’s best interests. This change will affect only remain in frequent contact with the relevant authorities the minority of separated parents who apply to the regarding access to these areas. courts to resolve disputes about child contact and This issue was also discussed at the annual UK-China residence. However, it complements wider measures Human Rights Dialogue in January. aimed at promoting the positive involvement of both parents, post separation. The statutory guidance, Working Together to Safeguard Civil Service: Staff Children, which will be subject to full formal consultation from May this year, will set out the legal requirements Question on statutory partners to safeguard and promote the Asked by Lord Laird welfare of children. Through revisions to the guidance we are exploring To ask Her Majesty’s Government how HM how best to reduce central prescription to give local Treasury defines bonus payments in the context of areas more freedom. Our aim is to free social workers Civil Service pay; what proportion of civil servants and other professionals from unnecessary bureaucracy are eligible to receive non-consolidated performance so they have more time for better quality work with payments; and how they are selected for those children and families. It is not appropriate for the payments. [HL16702] WA 307 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 308

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Non-consolidated BT is upgrading its network using a combination of performance-related payments (NCPRP) are one-off, Fibre To The Cabinet (FTTC) and Fibre To The non-pensionable awards that are primarily used to Home (FTTH) with the aim of reaching two-thirds of reward individuals for high performance against annual the UK by the end of 2014. This will bring fibre to business objectives. Since May 2010, NCPRP for senior within an average distance of 450 yards of UK premises civil servants has been cut back. This has been achieved passed. Virgin’s network, which is based on FTTC and by reducing the number of people who receive awards coaxial cable to the home, covers around 50 per cent of from 65% to 25% of senior civil servants, so that only the population. A number of other smaller providers those who have given exceptional performance over are also deploying FTTH networks. This commercial the year are rewarded. This has delivered savings of activity will be supplemented by the Government’s around £15 million. Departments and agencies are investment of £530 million to support rural broadband responsible for determining which of their senior staff deployment, in areas the market will not reach, which should receive such rewards against criteria set by the will contribute to the further expansion of fibre Cabinet Office. Non-senior staff are covered by delegated deployment throughout the UK. pay arrangements and the proportion of staff receiving such awards and the eligibility criteria for NCPRP are matters for each department and agency. Further Community Organisers information on NCPRP was published on departmental websites and linked to data.gov.uk in October 2011. Questions Asked by Lord Greaves Claims Management Companies To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much they spent on the community organisers programme Question in 2010–11, what is the expected cost in 2011–12 Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark and what is their anticipated budget in each of the next three years; and in each of these years what are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what and the amounts spent or budgeted for (1) direct how many actions they have taken against claims government spending, (2) administrative costs for management companies that have breached rules in work done by locality, (3) training costs incurred by respect of dealing with consumers fairly and properly RE:generate (Action to Regenerate Community Trust) in each year since 2005 up until the last year for and other bodies, (4) payments to community which records are available. [HL16794] organisers, and (5) other costs. [HL16493]

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The Government awarded McNally): The Ministry of Justice’s Claims Management Locality a £16 million contract to train and recruit Regulation Unit has taken a range of enforcement 5,000 community organisers by March 2015. actions against claims management companies that £10 million, of the £16 million, is set aside to cover have breached the conduct rules to which they are a bursary of £20,000 to train each of the 500 Senior subject. These include informal actions such as warnings community organisers for the first year. The remaining and statutory actions to vary licence conditions and costs can be broken down as follows and do not suspend or cancel licences. The statistical information include VAT: which is available is in the table. Regulation was introduced in 2007. 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 (paid) (expected) (projected) (projected) (projected) Enforcement action 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Programme £87,065 £687,750 £776,298 £762,250 £738,690 Costs Cancellations 1 89 35 349 290 Hosting £0 £224,100 £196,800 £181,400 £124,200 Suspensions 0 58 9 10 5 Costs Variations 0 0 2 10 7 Training £0 £235,350 £313,800 £313,800 £235,350 Costs Warnings 21 16 16 53 140 Asked by Lord Greaves Communications: Fibre Optic Cable To ask Her Majesty’s Government what criteria they have set out for the recruitment of senior or Question trainee community organisers; and whether those Asked by Lord Inglewood posts will be advertised by (1) publications, (2) the internet, (3) jobcentres, (4) directly to national and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage local voluntary and volunteer organisations, or (5) other of United Kingdom households are more than one means. [HL16504] kilometre from the path of a fibre optic cable. [HL16620] Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The recruitment of senior community organisers is run by individual host Lord De Mauley: While we do not hold this specific organisations in their local areas as well as directly by information, BT and Virgin Media’s commercial superfast Locality. Host organisations and Locality use a range broadband deployments will typically take fibre to of methods to recruit the most suitable candidates for within 1 kilometre of 66 per cent of UK households. the posts. Government do not dictate what these are. WA 309 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 310

Asked by Lord Greaves and age. Three organisers chose not to disclose their details. Of those who did disclose, the breakdown is as To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions follows: have taken place between the Department for Gender: Communities and Local Government and the Local Government Association in relation to the role and Male: 35% activities of community organisers, particularly in Female: 65% respect of the relationships between local residents Ethnicity: and elected local authorities at parish and principal White British: 58% council levels, and with elected councillors for the areas in which they are working. [HL16564] White Irish: 4% White Other: 2% Mixed White/Black Caribbean: 2% The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): Mixed White/Black African: 1% As outlined in the answer to the noble Lord of 27 March Mixed White/Asian: 1% 2012 (Official Report, col. 229WA) the Government Other Mixed: 4% are committed to training 5,000 community organisers Indian: 1% by March 2015. Pakistani: 4% My department has had no specific conversations with the Local Government Association in relation to African: 10% this role. Other black: 5% The community organisers initiative is about promoting Chinese: 1% community action at a neighbourhood level. They will Not Given: 7% undoubtedly work closely with local councillors and Age: local authorities. We do not intend to prescribe a central approach on such joint working. (a) Under 20: 0% (b) 20-30: 27% Asked by Lord Greaves (c) 30-40: 31% To ask Her Majesty’s Government what role (d) 40-50: 30% they expect the community organisers Programme (e) 50-60: 10% to carry out in the implementation of, and actions (f) over 60: 1% under, the Localism Act 2011, including but not restricted to Part 1 Chapter 1, Part 5 Chapters 2 Asked by Lord Greaves and 3, and Part 6 Chapters 2, 3 and 4. [HL16565] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether persons in receipt respectively of (1) jobseeker’s allowance Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The Community Organisers (or its successor as part of the universal credit), programme is about catalysing community action at a (2) invalidity benefits including disability living neighbourhood level—‘igniting the impulse to act’. allowance and personal independence payments, The Root Solution Listening Matters process enables and (3) any similar benefits, will be allowed to community organisers to get to the root causes of undertake activities as part-time voluntary community issues, identify local leaders, projects and opportunities, organisers. and empower the local community to improve their [HL16647] local area. The work of the organisers is independent of government, local authorities and charities, with local people setting the priorities and projects to take Lord De Mauley: People of working age who are in forward. The organiser enables them to take action on receipt of jobseeker’s allowance, income support or the things that matter most to them. employment and support allowance may undertake Community organisers will support their communities unlimited voluntary work provided they continue to to take advantage of rights under the Localism Act 2011 meet the normal benefit entitlement conditions. We if that is what the local community wants to do. expect to take a similar approach in universal credit. Disability living allowance is available to those who Asked by Lord Greaves are in or out of work, including voluntary work, as To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the long as the entitlement conditions continue to be met. breakdown of the persons who have so far been This will also be the case for personal independence appointed as senior or trainee community organisers payment. on the basis of (1) gender, (2) ethnicity and (3) age, Asked by Lord Greaves (a) under 20, (b) 20-30, (c) 30-40, (d) 40-50, (e) 50-60, and (f) over 60. [HL16566] To ask Her Majesty’s Government in what ways in “developing and supporting networks of volunteer community activists in listening, research, planning Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The information below and action in their communities”, as set out in the sets out the diversity statistics of the current 84 of the job description for trainee community organisers, 87 senior community organisers by gender, ethnicity community organisers are expected to take account WA 311 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 312

of established local and voluntary bodies, and existing As Director General for the Office for National networks and organisations of community activists; Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary and whether they are expected to build relationships Question asking why the value of the creative industries and work with such existing bodies and networks, to the United Kingdom economy was downgraded in or to set up new and separate structures which may the most recently published economic statistics (HL16610). be based more closely on Root Solution Listening The creative industry (specifically Standard Industrial Matters; and if the former, whether they will be Classification 90 and its sub-components) was affected expected to convert existing groups and activists to, by the move from SIC 2003 to SIC 2007 at the time of and train them in, the Root Solution Listening publishing the United Kingdom National Accounts—Blue Matters methodology. [HL16650] Book 2011. To give the classification change some context, Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Community organisers industries such as motion picture production and are required to carry out listenings in their local areas. distribution, and radio and television broadcasting Listenings can be with neighbours, local businesses, are no longer classed as part of Creative arts and and existing local groups and organisations. Through entertainment. They, along with many of the other this process they build up a rich picture of the views of sub-components previously included in Creative arts the local community. Community organisers, based and entertainment are now classified as industries in on their listenings, will work with the existing structures their own right. For example, under SIC 2007, Motion where appropriate, but will also support local communities picture, video and television is classed as SIC 2007 59, to set up new structures if this is required. but was previously included within Arts, entertainment Community organisers are trained in the Root Solution and recreation (SIC 2003 92). Listening Matters approach but there is no expectation The changes are shown in Table 1. that they convert existing groups and activists to, and Table 1 train them in, the Root Solution Listening Matters SIC 2003 methodology. Industry 92 (Recreational, cultural and sporting Asked by Lord Greaves activities) had a weight of 27.3 (parts per thousand) To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their The list below details exactly what was included definition of “Alinsky-style citizen organising”, as within industry 92 before the move to SIC 2007: mentioned in the job description provided to people SIC Description Weight who may wish to apply to become trainee community organisers. [HL16651] 92.1 Motion picture and 4.1 video activities 92.2 Radio and television 5.7 Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The job description for activities trainee or senior community organisers refers to a 92.31 Artistic and literary 2.7 range of “Go Deeper”learning options which organisers creation and take up during the second six months of their year-long interpretation 92.32-4 Other entertainment 1.3 training programme. This element of the programme activities provides the opportunity to specialise in a specific 92.4 News agency 1.2 form of organising such as digital organising or citizen activities organising. At the time of publishing the job description, 92.5m Library, archives, 0.3 Locality were in discussions with Citizens UK about museums, other an option based on Saul Alinsky’s model of citizen cultural acts. (mkt) organising, an approach adopted by Citizens UK. 92.6nm Sporting and other 1.8 However, both parties agreed to not pursue this. recreational activities (non-mkt) 92.6/72m Sporting and other 5.9 recreational Creative Industries activities (mkt) 92.71 Gambling and 4.3 Question betting activities Asked by Lord Clement-Jones Total 27.3 To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the value of the creative industries to the United Kingdom SIC 2007 economy was downgraded in the most recently Since the move to SIC 2007 at Blue Book 2011, the published economic statistics. [HL16610] components of 92 have been split out as two-digit SIC5 in their own right. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The information requested The list below details the change in Structure: falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics SIC Description Weight Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Letter from Stephen Penneck, Director General for 58 Publishing* 8.1 the Office for National Statistics, to Lord Clement-Jones, 59 Motion picture, 3.8 dated March 2012 video and television WA 313 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 314

SIC Description Weight However, we are concerned about continuing restrictions of Cubans’ civil and political rights, in 60 Programming and 4.8 particular the lack of freedom of association, freedom broadcasting of expression, freedom of information, and judicial 90 Creative, arts and 1.9 independence. There is no legal right to strike and entertainment activities independent trade unions are not permitted. Public 91 Libraries, archives, 2.7 demonstrations are banned, and short-term detentions museums and other are used to prevent demonstrations and intimidate cult. acts. activists from expressing anti-government views. There 92 Gambling and 4 is no separation of powers and independent lawyers betting activities are not permitted to practice. Cuba’s record on media 93 Sports activities and 6.6 freedom is poor and it was ranked 166 out of 178 in amusement and the Reporters Without Borders Press Freedom Index recreation acts. in 2011. Although internet censorship has eased slightly, Total 31.9 there are few internet access points and using them is * Note: a large part of this industry was previously included prohibitively expensive for the average Cuban. within the Production Sector. We continue to underline to the Cuban government our support for the positive process of economic reform alongside our ongoing concerns over the lack Crown Prosecution Service of meaningful civil and political rights. Question Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Cyclists: Safety To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Question the Written Answer by Lord Wallace of Tankerness Asked by Lord Bradshaw on 19 March (WA 128) concerning gender balance in the Crown Prosecution Service, what action they To ask Her Majesty’s Government what cyclist are taking to recruit men to the service. [HL16756] safety requirements they consider necessary in the development of cycle hire schemes. [HL16728] The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness): The Crown Prosecution Service recruits Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The provision of cycle staff on the basis of merit through fair and open hire schemes and the safety of any equipment is a competition and has no plans to favour the recruitment matter for local authorities and scheme operators. of one sex over the other. However, the Government are taking steps to make cycling safer for everyone, whether using a hire bike or their own. For instance, we have recently announced Cuba that councils are now free to use Trixi mirrors at Question junctions and have also made it easier for local authorities to introduce 20 mph zones and limits more efficiently. Asked by Lord Patten The Department for Transport is also leading discussions at European level on improving standards for heavy To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their goods vehicles (HGVs) to help reduce accidents caused assessment of the state of political and press freedoms by poor visibility, in Cuba. [HL16803] We are also considering how to increase motorists’ awareness of cyclists’ issues. We have made the driving The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth test more realistic and less predictable, and are considering Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We recognise and how to improve training for drivers after they pass welcome the positive steps made by the Cuban government their test to help them develop their driving skills and over the past year in the area of political and economic knowledge. Every driving theory test includes six questions freedoms. These include the release of all the remaining relating to cyclists or other vulnerable road users. We prisoners of conscience arrested during the ‘Black are also keen to look at how we can incorporate a Spring’ in 2003; the ongoing economic reform process, greater degree of cyclist awareness in the driver certificate which is leading to greater economic freedoms, and of professional competence for HGV drivers. increasing religious tolerance, most clearly demonstrated by the Pope’s recent visit. We also welcome Cuba’s continuing strong record on child rights, gender equality Disabled People: Personal Independence and social rights such as universal healthcare and Payment education. President Raul Castro has signalled the introduction of future limits on political terms, and a Question separation of the Communist Party from the state. He Asked by Lord Low of Dalston has also called for greater democracy in the Communist Party. Although genuine political reform remains a To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they long way off, these would be welcome developments will ensure that the maintenance of a home to a and positive signals of greater political opening. safe and hygienic standard is recognised in the final WA 315 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 316

assessment criteria for the new personal independence removal of the discretionary social fund on the payment, including the additional costs faced by demand for payday loans and other high-cost some disabled people in this regard. [HL16713] lending. [HL16593]

Lord De Mauley: Like disability living allowance, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department personal independence payment is designed to make a for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): contribution towards the extra costs that disabled Discussions on issues of concern related to debt management people face. However, we do not think it would be take place on a frequent basis at ministerial and official administratively feasible to measure the actual costs level between the Department for Business, Innovation that individual disabled people incur. Such an approach and Skills and the Department for Work and Pensions. would result in a subjective, inconsistent, complicated These discussions have included how best to protect and lengthy assessment. Instead we intend to consider vulnerable consumers who use payday and other high-cost a proxy for these extra costs. DLA uses individuals’ loans from detrimental practices. care and mobility needs as this proxy. In PIP we are It is not accurate to say that the Social Fund is considering an individual’s ability to carry out everyday being removed. In April 2013 the discretionary elements activities and participate in society. of the Social Fund will be replaced by local provision The PIP assessment criteria cannot and are not by local authorities in England and arrangements intended to cover all the areas of everyday activity or made by the Scottish and Welsh Assembly Governments. all the activities where disabled people face barriers or The budgeting loan scheme will continue because this cost. Instead they are intended to, as a group, act as an is an important buffer which protects people from overall proxy for extra cost and the impact of impairments, turning to illegal lending. Under universal credit, the allowing us to identify individuals with the greatest Government have committed to maintaining a simplified need. We believe that the draft criteria, which have and modernised national system of interest-free advances, been significantly improved as a result of feedback which can be accessed through the benefit system as from disabled people and disability organisations, achieve part of the wider package of reforms, and which will this. be similar in nature to the existing budgeting loan However, the assessment criteria are still being scheme. The residual scheme will continue until universal developed and we are keen to hear further views and credit is fully rolled out, gradually being replaced by suggestions on them. As such we are currently carrying budgeting advances. In addition the regulated parts of out a formal consultation, which runs until 30 April. the Social Fund, Sure Start maternity grants, funeral payments and cold weather payments will continue.

Discretionary Social Fund Education: Home Schooling Questions Question Asked by Baroness Lister of Burtersett Asked by Lord Lucas To ask Her Majesty’s Government what information they have provided to the Local Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether any Ombudsman (LGO) on the replacement of the of the Special Educational Needs pathfinder pilot discretionary social fund by local authority provision local authorities have included home-educated children and on the potential impact on demand for the in the pilot; if so, which authorities, and how many LGO’s services. [HL16572] children in each authority; if not, why not, and To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they what steps they will take to address this issue. have advised the Local Government Ombudsman [HL16715] about conducting reviews of refusals for emergency support when crisis loans are replaced by local The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for authority provision. [HL16573] Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): Since the launch of the special educational needs and disability (SEND) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department pathfinder programme in late 2011, the 31 pathfinder for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): local authorities and their health partners have been While Government do not provide advice to the independent working in partnership with parents and carers from a Local Government Ombudsman, they recognise that wide variety of backgrounds to design and develop the local replacement of the discretionary social fund their approach to testing the key reforms set out in the mayhaveimplicationsfortheLocalGovernmentOmbudsman Green Paper Support and Aspiration: A new approach services. Such issues, including the local replacement to special educational needs and disability. of the discretionary social fund, are discussed in the The pathfinder programme is intended to test the regular liaison meetings between the ombudsman and Green Paper reforms across the spectrum of SEND, senior departmental officials. including improving assessment and planning for children with the most complex needs who would normally Asked by Baroness Lister of Burtersett receive a statement through the education, health and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions care plan, and improving transparency about services have taken place between the Department for Business, available locally through the introduction of a ‘local Innovation and Skills and the Department for offer’. It is up to pathfinders to identify and recruit Work and Pensions about the possible impact of the their particular cohort of families locally, but we WA 317 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 318 expect cohorts to include children and young people arising from incomplete combustion. UK emissions with a range of needs and in a range of settings (eg are expected to continue to decline in the short to including early years provision, special schools, maintained medium term, as a result of air pollution reduction schools, Academies and other settings which might measures already in place to address public health include home educated children). We do not expect impacts; these are also expected to contribute to our the evaluation to report on the impact of the Green goals on climate change. Emissions of particulate matter Paper reforms on specific types of schooling. (including black carbon) from diesel vehicles have reduced in recent years due to more stringent EU vehicle air quality pollutant emission standards. These emissions Egypt will fall further as increasingly strict standards will Question force the use of wall-flow diesel particulate filters on vehicles. Furthermore, increased uptake of ultra low Asked by Lord Hylton emission vehicles, including electric vehicles, is an important To ask Her Majesty’s Government what part of Government’s longer term policy to reduce representations they have made to the Government harmful emissions from transport, particularly in urban of Egypt about arrested local members of non- areas. governmental organisations, the freezing of their A recent UNEP report set out the climate and funds, and the representation of women’s interests health benefits of reducing global black carbon emissions in the drafting of the new constitution. [HL16663] and Government is considering what role, if any, the Climate Change Committee should have in advising The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth on pollutants, such as black carbon, where there is Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are concerned emerging scientific evidence around their short-term about the recent action taken by the Egyptian authorities impact on local warming. against non-governmental organisations (NGOs). We believe that civil society has an important role to play in ensuring a successful transition to democracy. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right honourable friend the Member for Energy: Wind Generation Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) raised this issue, including Question the treatment of NGO staff, with the Egyptian Foreign Minister when they met in London on 22 February, Asked by Lord Donoughue and the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my honourable the Written Answer by Lord Marland on 15 March friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Mr Burt) (WA 91-2), what information is gathered by the raised our concerns about the imposition of travel Department of Energy and Climate Change on (1) bans and arrest warrants for NGO members during a revenues from wind farm generation, (2) capital telephone call with the Egyptian Foreign Minister on costs of wind farm equipment, and (3) the operating 13 February.We continue to encourage Egypt to introduce life of wind farm generation equipment, when setting new legislation governing the regulation of NGO activity, the level of renewable obligation support. [HL16644] and have offered help in this regard. Mr Burt visited Cairo from 11 to 13 March. In his meetings with the Foreign Minister and contacts in political parties he emphasised that women’s participation Lord De Mauley: The information gathered by DECC is a key part of supporting transitions and building on (1) revenues, (2) capital costs and (3) the operating stability. We continue to urge the Egyptian authorities life of wind farm generation is set out in the Renewables to establish the conditions for inclusive politics, and Obligation Banding Review consultation document for the rights of women and minorities to be enshrined and accompanying Impact Assessment, which can in the new constitution and in law. be found at http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/ consultations/cons_ro_review/cons_ro_review.aspx The revenue assumptions used in our calculations Energy: Carbon Emissions (at page 20) included wholesale electricity prices, revenue Question from the sale of levy exemption certificates and ROCs Asked by Lord Hunt of Chesterton (currently 1 ROC per MWh for onshore wind and 2 ROCs per MWh for offshore wind). The capital and To ask Her Majesty’s Government (1) what is operating costs for onshore and offshore wind come their policy for the reduction of black carbon emissions, from the Arup report (also available at the website particularly from diesel engines, in the light of their above), and are set out in Annex B (page 126) to the policy to favour diesel engines in order to reduce consultation document. The operating life of wind carbon dioxide emissions; and (2) what is the role of farms is assumed to be an average of 23 years for the Climate Change Committee in reaching a balanced offshore equipment and 24 years for onshore equipment. policy. [HL16810] The banding review consultation closed on 12 January and the Government are currently considering new The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department evidence provided through the consultation before of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): Black setting the new levels of RO support. A government carbon is a fraction of particulate matter pollution response is expected to be published in the spring. WA 319 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 320

Environment: Sustainable Development The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The European Union Question (EU)-Israel Association Agreement is an important Asked by Lord Judd part of the framework governing co-operation between the EU and Israel. The agreement is reviewed annually, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the including application of the human rights clauses. presumption in favour of sustainable development Progress towards a two-state solution is a key element as set out in the National Planning Policy Framework of the relationship between the EU and Israel. The will apply to national parks, areas of outstanding EU has been very clear that no progress can be made natural beauty and the Broads. [HL16804] on upgrading the wider EU-Israel relationship until there is substantial progress towards a two-state solution The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department to the Arab-Israeli conflict. for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): As a firm friend of Israel, the UK is keen to see Paragraph 14 of the national planning policy framework closer ties between Israel and the international community, setsoutthepresumptioninfavourof sustainabledevelopment including the EU. We do not believe that the isolation and explains how it applies to plan-making and decisions of Israel is the way to achieve the positive steps that we on planning applications, including where specific policies would like to see. However, we support the EU’s in the framework indicate development should be restricted. position that further upgrades in Israel’s relationship Such policies include those relating to land within with the EU would only follow progress towards peace. national parks, the Broads and areas of outstanding natural beauty.

EU: Data Protection European Court of Human Rights Question Questions Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to will seek to ensure that any proposals for European the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 21 March Union regulations on data protection are compatible (WA169), whether, when finalising the list of candidates with the right of public access to information and for the office of the United Kingdom judge at the the right to freedom of expression guaranteed by European Court of Human Rights, they had regard Article 10 of the European Convention on Human to the criteria for the establishment of lists of Rights. [HL16689] candidates contained in the Draft Committee of Ministers’ Guidelines on the selection of candidates for the post of judge at the Court, agreed by the The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Council of Europe’s Steering Committee for Human McNally): The UK Government will seek to ensure Rights in February 2012, and in particular criteria 4 that the new European Commission data protection (“candidates should have knowledge of ... public instruments strike a balance between protecting the international law”) and 5 (“if elected, candidates rights of data subjects and satisfying the needs of data should in general be able to hold office for at least controllers. This means that we will seek to safeguard half of the nine-year term before reaching 70 years citizens’ rights while also ensuring that businesses and of age”). [HL16690] the public sector can process data effectively and safely. Therefore, while we support freedom of information, To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to there must, of course, be sufficient protection and the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 21 March privacy for individuals. (WA169), whether, when finalising the list of candidates for the office of the United Kingdom judge at the The regulation, which deals with general data European Court of Human Rights, they had regard processing, requires member states to provide for to the recommendation in paragraph 53 of the exemptions or derogations in order to reconcile data Explanatory Report to Protocol No. 14 to the protection with freedom of expression with respect to Convention of 2005 that states “avoid proposing the processing of data for literary, artistic or journalistic candidates who, in view of their age, would not be purposes. able to hold office for at least half the nine-year term before reaching the age of 70”. [HL16691] EU-Israel Association Agreement To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 21 March Question (WA169), whether, when finalising the list of candidates Asked by Lord Warner for the office of the United Kingdom judge at the European Court of Human Rights, they had regard To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they to paragraph 8a of the preamble to the Interlaken will seek a review of the EU-Israel Association Declaration of February 2010, calling on states to Agreement on trade in the light of Israel’s blockade ensure “full satisfaction of the Convention’s criteria of Gaza and continuing acceptance of illegal for office as a judge of the Court, including knowledge settlements in the West Bank. [HL16658] of public international law”. [HL16692] WA 321 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 322

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Firearms: Licensing the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 21 March (WA169), whether, when finalising the list of candidates Questions for the office of the United Kingdom judge at the Asked by Lord Laird European Court of Human Rights, they had regard to the criterion contained in paragraph 19(ii) of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Parliamentary Assembly Recommendation 1649 will take action to ensure that all firearms certificates (2004), “that candidates have experience in the field issued in the past six years are operative for a full of human rights”. [HL16693] five-year term from the date of issue. [HL16700]

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord The grant or renewal of firearms certificates is a McNally): As I made clear in my Written Answer on matter for the chief officer of police of the force where 21 March (WA169), when finalising the list of candidates the applicant resides. for the office of the United Kingdom judge at the Asked by Lord Laird European Court of Human Rights, the Government complied with all the criteria of the Parliamentary To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Assembly of the Council of Europe. will take action to ensure that no instructions are given to firearms administration managers by any The Draft Committee of Ministers’ Guidelines on individual or body, including the Association of the selection of candidates for the post of judge at the Chief Police Officers, that would result in delays in court have been under discussion and negotiation the efficient administration of issuing firearms and until very recently and were only adopted on 28 March shotgun certificates. [HL16701] 2012. Paragraph 53 of the Explanatory Report to Protocol Lord Henley: The chief officer of police has the No. 14 to the convention makes clear it was decided responsibility, under the Firearms Acts, for determining not to fix an additional age limit for candidates and the administration and management of firearms licensing consequently the reference to holding office for at departments in their force area. least half the nine-year term before reaching the age of 70 is described as a general recommendation. With regard to paragraph 8a of the preamble to the Food: Sugar Interlaken Declaration of February 2010, calling on Question states to ensure “full satisfaction of the Convention’s criteria for office as a judge of the Court, including Asked by Lord Harrison knowledge of public international law”, knowledge of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they public international law is not included in the criteria have any plans to publish sugar reduction targets. for office in Article 21 of the convention. [HL16740] With regard to paragraph 19(ii) of Parliamentary Assembly Recommendation 1649 (2004), which invited The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Governments to ensure all candidates “have experience of Health (Earl Howe): The Government have no current in the field of human rights” before submitting lists of plans to publish sugar reduction targets. candidates, all the applicants for the office of the On 24 March, the Government announced an initial United Kingdom judge at the European Court of tranche of signatories to the Responsibility Deal calorie Human Rights completed the standard Council of reduction pledge, under which businesses make Europe proforma CV, which requires evidence of their commitments to support and enable their customers “activities and experience in the field of human rights”. to eat and drink fewer calories. Reducing sugar content in food and soft drinks is one of a range of actions businesses might take to help achieve this. Finance: Initial Public Offering Listings Question Gaza Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Question Asked by Baroness Tonge To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to encourage a greater percentage of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what initial public offering (IPO) listings on the London representations they will make to the Government Stock Exchange. [HL16792] of Israel in relation to the 23 members of the Al-Samouni family in Gaza killed during Operation Cast Lead. [HL16709] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): The Government believe it is important to The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth create the right environment for businesses to grow Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We have consistently and strive to create a proportionate regulatory framework urged the Israeli authorities to investigate any crimes in which companies can raise capital efficiently and committed during Operation Cast Lead and to prosecute investors have confidence. those responsible, and will continue to do so. WA 323 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 324

Goldman Sachs Government Departments: Opinion Polls Questions Questions Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government what due To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the past diligence checks were carried out on Goldman Sachs, two years, how many opinion polls have been carried and by whom, before they were appointed to advise out for HM Treasury and HM Revenue and Customs; government departments or other publicly funded on what issues each poll was conducted, and when; bodies. [HL16463] what was the cost of each poll; and how many people were polled. [HL16531]

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: This information is not held centrally. It is the responsibility of individual The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Contracting Authorities to carry out due diligence Sassoon): Between April 2010 and March 2012, 39 research checks. projects involving quantitative surveys asking people Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay or businesses about their attitudes and behaviours have been carried out for HM Revenue and Customs. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether A table covering the issues, timing, costs and number Goldman Sachs are an approved bidder for government of interviews of each survey is below. No opinion advisory contracts. [HL16467] polls were carried out by HM Treasury during the period. HM Revenue and Customs has been conducting similar numbers of research surveys each year for Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The Government do not several years to collect information from individuals hold a list of approved bidders for government contracts and businesses on attitudes and behaviour to support and the awarding of contracts falls to individual operational delivery and the tax policy functions of departments according to their needs. the Department and HM Treasury. HMRC research includes surveys that collect data on attitudes and views from individuals and business alongside details of their behaviour. This research helps assess the quality and efficiency of service delivery and is used to Government Departments: Bonuses design, implement and evaluate new policies and services. Question HMRC ensures all research it undertakes provides value for money. All projects have a business case Asked by Lord Laird developed and go through a formal professional services To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the Cabinet commissioning request process requiring sign off at Office define bonus payments in the context of civil senior level. Projects are designed, commissioned and service pay; what proportion of civil servants are managed by research specialists in HMRC, who ensure eligible to receive non-consolidated performance delivery of relevant, timely and cost effective outputs. payments; and how they are selected for those HMRC Research Surveys in 2010-11 and 2011-12 including questions payments. [HL16502] on opinions Issues covered Whenitwas Number of by the survey conducted Cost of survey respondents

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Non-consolidated performance- Panel Survey Telephone: £392,700 1,945 face to of Tax Credit Aug-Sep face related payments (NCPRP) are one-off, non-pensionable and Child 2010. Face to interviews, awards that are primarily used to reward individuals Benefit Face: Nov 808 telephone for high performance against annual business objectives. Claimants 2010 - Feb interviews Since May 2010, NCPRP for senior civil servants has (2010/11) 2011. been cut back. This has been achieved by reducing the Telephone Nov-Dec £68,416 1,032 number of people who receive awards from 65% to Survey of the 2011 telephone Panel Study interviews 25% of senior civil servants, so that only those who of Tax Credits have given exceptional performance over the year are and Child rewarded. This has delivered savings of around £15 million. Benefit (2011/ Departments and agencies are responsible for determining 12) which of their senior staff should receive such rewards 2009 Large Aug 2009 - £169,236 1,088 large Business May 2010 businesses against criteria set by the Cabinet Office. Non-senior Customer staff are covered by delegated pay arrangements and Experience the proportion of staff receiving such awards and the Survey eligibility criteria for NCPRP is a matter for each Core Aug 2010 - £135,920 1,770 large department and agency.Further information on NCPRP Longitudinal Apr 2011 businesses was published on departmental websites and linked to Business data.gov.uk in October 2011. Panel Survey WA 325 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 326

HMRC Research Surveys in 2010-11 and 2011-12 including questions HMRC Research Surveys in 2010-11 and 2011-12 including questions on opinions on opinions

Issues covered When it was Number of Issues covered Whenitwas Number of by the survey conducted Cost of survey respondents by the survey conducted Cost of survey respondents

Large Feb 2011 - £88,307 1,262 large Contact Apr 2011 - £79,763 4,400 Business Tax May 2012 businesses Centre Mar 2012 telephone Opinions Customer interviews Survey Survey (2011/ with 12) individuals, Panel survey Jul2011-Apr £121,536 1,665 large businesses or of the UK 2012 businesses agents large business population Child Trust Feb - Mar £55,000 2,549 parents (2011/12) Fund 2010 Evaluation – Compliance Aug-Dec £86,082 2,420 Wave 2 Perceptions 2010 individuals Survey with Regional Jun - Nov £34,997 849 agents individuals Employer 2010 and 291 (2010/11) National businesses Compliance Sep 2011 - £99,272 2,772 Insurance Perceptions Mar 2012 individuals Contributions Survey with (NICs) individuals Holiday (2011/12) Scheme Survey Compliance Sep - Oct £49,975 850 small and Perceptions 2010 medium sized High Net Sep - Oct £77,572 804 agents Survey with enterprises Worth 2011 small and Customer medium sized Survey enterprises (2010/11) IT, NICs and Nov 2011 - £118,055 1,500 small PAYE – small Jan 2012 employers Compliance Jan - Mar £64,680 1,124 small business Perceptions 2012 and medium behaviour and Survey with sized attitudes small and enterprises medium sized Personal tax Feb 2012 £11,425 2,109 enterprises transparency - individuals (2011/12) omnibus survey Impact of Jan – Feb £71,150 2,000 campaigns on 2011 telephone HMRC Apr 2010 - £151,600 2,000 taxpayer interviews handling of Mar 2011 interviews attitudes with Personal Tax electricians Complaints

HMRC Apr 2010 - £868,000 10,000 HMRC Nov 2010 - £86,000 2,600 Customer Mar 2011 Individuals, Reputation April 2011 interviews Survey 8,000 small with Personal 2008-11 and medium & Business (2010/11) sized Tax businesses Customers and 6,000 Tax Agents all Information Feb - Mar £112,000 1,179 interviewed by needs of 2010 interviews telephone people starting work. HMRC Apr 2011 - £681,197 7,278 Customer Mar 2012 Individuals, Money Dec 2010 - £312,000 2,200 Survey 5,400 small Laundering Mar 2011 interviews 2011-15 and medium Regulations: (2011/12) sized research to businesses inform policy and 3,390 Tax and Agents all compliance interviewed by strategies. telephone. Small and Aug-Nov £113,750 2,500 Contact Sep 2010 - £57,019 2,196 Medium Size 2010 interviews Centre Mar 2011 telephone Enterprises Customer interviews use of and Survey (2010/ with attitudes to 11) individuals, HMRC businesses or products and agents services. WA 327 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 328

HMRC Research Surveys in 2010-11 and 2011-12 including questions HMRC Research Surveys in 2010-11 and 2011-12 including questions on opinions on opinions Issues covered Whenitwas Number of Issues covered When it was Number of by the survey conducted Cost of survey respondents by the survey conducted Cost of survey respondents Small and Aug 2011 – £30,245 1,401 medium size Mar 2012 interviews Small and Aug 2010 - £8,735 500 interviews enterprises Medium Size Mar 2011 awareness of Enterprises the VAT awareness of online the VAT mandation online deadline mandation (2011/12) deadline (2010/2011) Tax for Sep 2011 - £80,290 601 interviews business Self Mar 2012 Tax credit Feb - Aug £89,640 715 interviews Assessment renewals Campaign campaign Tracking tracking 2010 Tax credit Mar 2010 - £49,100 712 interviews renewals Aug 2011 Tax For Feb 2010 £55,220 309 interviews campaign Business Self tracking Assessment Reputation - Feb - Mar £50,000 100 Corporate Campaign Corporate 2012 stakeholders Tracking 2010 Stakeholder 50 Engagement Parliamentary Tax For Nov 2010 - £71,500 545 interviews stakeholders Business Self Feb 2011 20 Journalists Assessment Campaign Asked by Lord Laird Tracking 2011 To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the past Communications Dec 2011 - £45,000 916 interviews two years, how many opinion polls have been carried to customers Mar 2012 out for the Cabinet Office; on what issues each poll dealing with a) Capital was conducted, and when; what was the cost of Gains Tax each poll; and how many people were polled. and b) P800 [HL16532] Tax Calculation Lord Wallace of Saltaire: This information is not Looking at Feb - Mar £35,000 1,500 collated centrally in the format requested and could the support 2012 customers only be obtained at disproportionate cost. needs of vulnerable HMRC Government Departments: Staff customers Question Real Time May 2011 - £225,000 700 employer Information Mar 2012 interviews Asked by Lord Laird 1,000 message To ask Her Majesty’s Government how HM testing interviews Revenue and Customs define bonus payments in 1,800 the context of Civil Service pay; what proportion of awareness civil servants are eligible to receive non-consolidated tracking performance payments; and how they are selected interviews for those payments. [HL16657] Self Sep 2011 £9,800 1,020 Assessment interviews The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord penalty Sassoon): HMRC operates two bonus arrangements: awareness tracking Annual performance awards (wave 1) All civil servants are eligible to receive an annual performance award. Self Nov 2011 - £34,450 4,452 Assessment Feb 2012 interviews Performance award payments to those at grades up penalty to the Senior Civil Service (SCS) are made where an awareness individual is assessed as having achieved a top performance tracking grade throughout the preceding year at their end of (waves 2-5) year appraisal. Understanding Sep - Nov £34,000 1,000 Performance award payments to the SCS are reviewed difficulties 2011 interviews and decided by the HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) encountered Pay Committee. The Senior Salaries Review Body set by small the broader framework for performance awards across businesses the Civil Service and HMRC works within that. WA 329 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 330

Performance awards are awarded in line with Cabinet Patient Colorectal Office policy to reward delivery of personal business Age excision objectives during the reporting year or other short-term Group personal contributions to wider organisational objectives. 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Recognition bonus scheme Total Total Total FCEs Male FCEs Male FCEs Male All civil servants, except senior civil servants, are eligible to receive a recognition bonus. 75-79 12,506 6,780 13,628 7,423 14,982 8,259 Recognition bonuses are a reward for a visible 80-84 8,456 4,276 9,060 4,704 9,659 4,888 demonstration of exceptional performance during the 85-89 3,970 1,803 4,396 1,953 4,426 2,057 delivery of particularly demanding tasks, projects or 90-94 604 237 694 242 886 323 situations. This is an immediate reward, outside the 95 & 105 34 110 31 77 25 terms of the appraisal system. over

Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Gulf of Guinea Care Information Centre Question Patient Open Asked by Viscount Waverley Age excision Group of prostate To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 have identified the Gulf of Guinea as an area of Total Total Total strategic interest; and, if so, why. [HL16760] FCEs Male FCEs Male FCEs Male 75-79 283 283 271 271 263 263 The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth 80-84 92 92 103 103 75 75 Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government 85-89 19 19 22 22 16 16 are concerned by a worsening maritime security situation 90-94 333322 in the Gulf of Guinea, with increasing incidents of 95 & ----11 armed robbery and violent attack against international over shipping and seafarers in the region. A stable maritime security situation in the region is vital to the safety of seafarers and to the UK’s energy security.The Government Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social are working with international partners, regional countries Care Information Centre and the shipping industry to establish a Maritime Patient Breast Trade Information Sharing Centre to strengthen the Age excision capabilities of regional states to respond to maritime Group security incidents as they occur. 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total Total Total FCEs Male FCEs Male FCEs Male

Health: Elderly People 75-79 3,001 39 3,154 49 3,213 48 Questions 80-84 1,938 44 2,009 36 2,102 41 85-89 891 13 995 14 995 18 Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill 90-94 186 1 235 4 228 5 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many 95 & 28 36 1 44 - (1) finished consultant episodes, and (2) finished over consultant episodes for males, took place for (a) colorectal excision, (b) open excision of the Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social prostate, (c) breast excision, (d) inguinal hernia Care Information Centre repair, and (e) abdominal aortic aneurysm aorta replacement procedures, for patients aged (i) 75–79, Patient Inguinal (ii) 80–84, (iii) 85–89, (iv) 90–94, and (v) 95 years Age hernia and over, in each of the past three years for which Group repair data are available. [HL16781] 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total Total Total FCEs Male FCEs Male FCEs Male The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): The information is shown in 75-79 7,117 6,417 6,781 6,119 6,599 5,967 the following tables: 80-84 4,845 4,297 4,722 4,164 4,548 4,010 85-89 2,285 1,964 2,238 1,902 2,236 1,892 Total number of finished consultant episodes (FCE)1 90-94 428 334 500 394 511 421 and FCEs where the patient gender is male with main 2 95 & 69 46 78 57 _ 74 48 operative procedure as specified by patient age group over for 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11 Activity in English National Health Service Hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social independent sector. Care Information Centre WA 331 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 332

but a more complete count of episodes with a particular Patient Abdominal aortic procedure is obtained by looking at the main and the secondary Age aneurysm aorta Group replacement procedures. 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total Total Total FCEs Male FCEs Male FCEs Male Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill 75-79 828 673 741 620 595 493 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many 80-84 559 432 454 344 397 318 (1) admissions, and (2) emergency admissions, took 85-89 161 113 133 95 134 98 place for (a) colorectal excision, (b) open excision 90-94 765376of the prostate, (c) breast excision, (d) inguinal 95&over-----1hernia repair, and (e) abdominal aortic aneurysm Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social aorta replacement procedures, for patients aged Care Information Centre (i) 75–79, (ii) 80–84, (iii) 85–89, (iv) 90–94, and (v) 95 years and over, in each of the last three years 1 FCE for which data are available. [HL16782] An FCE is a continuous period of admitted patient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. FCEs are Earl Howe: The information is shown in the following counted against the year in which they end. Figures do not tables: represent the number of different patients, as a person may have Total number of finished admissions episodes1 (FAEs) more than one episode of care within the same stay in hospital or 3 in different stays in the same year. and FAEs where the method of admission is emergency where a main operative procedure2 as identified has 2 Main procedure been carried out, by age group for 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11. The first recorded procedure or intervention in each episode, usually the most resource intensive procedure or intervention Activity in English National Health Service Hospitals performed during the episode. It is appropriate to use main and English NHS commissioned activity in the procedure when looking at admission details, (eg time waited), independent sector.

Patient Age Colorectal excision Group 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs

75-79 11,600 1,106 12,673 1,077 14,104 1,143 80-84 7,604 950 8,208 998 8,823 932 85-89 3,458 574 3,834 614 3,894 565 90-94 498 132 564 139 730 142 95&over782384266628

Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

Patient Age Open excision Group of prostate 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs

75-79 279 9 262 6 260 4 80-84 89 2 98 3 73 2 85-89 19 1 22 1 15 1 90-94 3 - 3 - 2 95&over _ - - - - -

Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

Patient Age Group Breast excision 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs

75-79 2,993 17 3,134 11 3,202 9 80-84 1,925 17 2,003 3 2,089 4 85-89 879 8 979 10 987 2 90-94 183 2 232 5 224 1 95&over 28 - 34 1 43 1 Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre WA 333 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 334

Patient Age Group Inguinal hernia repair 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs

75-79 7,029 416 6,695 393 6,520 417 80-84 4,758 396 4,626 434 4,467 398 85-89 2,213 308 2,172 355 2,168 339 90-94 413 115 468 128 491 137 95&over672472296930

Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

Patient Age Abdominal aortic Group aneurysm aorta replacement 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs

75-79 778 263 682 235 561 230 80-84 522 208 415 192 355 179 85-89 140 79 122 72 118 79 90-94 7 7 2 - 5 3 95&over - - - - 1 1

Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Mean and Median time waited (days) for finished Care Information Centre admissions episodes1 with the main operative procedure2 1 FAE as specified by patient age group for 2008-09, 2009-10 An FAE is the first period of inpatient care under one and 2010-11 consultant within one healthcare provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Activity in English National Health Service Hospitals Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. and English NHS commissioned activity in the 2 Main procedure independent sector. The first recorded procedure or intervention in each episode, Patient Colorectal usually the most resource intensive procedure or intervention Age excision performed during the episode. Group 3 Emergency Admissions 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 An emergency admission is one where the admission method Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median is recorded as one of the following codes: 75-79 28 21 29 21 30 21 21 Emergency - via Accident and Emergency (A&E) services, including the casualty department of the provider 80-84 27 20 30 21 28 21 22 Emergency - via General Practitioner (GP) 85-89 27 20 28 20 27 21 90-94 27 20 31 21 32 20 23 Emergency - via Bed Bureau, including the Central Bureau 95 & 30 20 32 23 28 20 24 Emergency - via consultant out-patient clinic over 28 Emergency - other means, including patients who arrive via the A&E department Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill Care Information Centre To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was Patient Open the (1) mean, and (2) median waiting time, for Age excision Group of (a) colorectal excision, (b) open excision of the prostate prostate, (c) breast excision, (d) inguinal hernia 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 repair, and (e) abdominal aortic aneurysm aorta Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median replacement procedures, for patients aged (i) 75–79, (ii) 80–84, (iii) 85–89, (iv) 90–94, and (v) 95 years 75-79 48 35 43 31 38 29 and over, in each of the last three years for which 80-84 44 29 49 34 37 30 data are available. [HL16783] 85-89 62 61 76 50 55 40 90-94 17 17 128 137 35 35 95 & ------over

Earl Howe: The information is shown in the following Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social tables: Care Information Centre WA 335 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 336

Patient Breast replacement, (b) knee replacement, (c) coronary Age excision artery bypass graft, (d) cochlea implant, and Group (e) cholecystectomy procedures for patients aged 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 (i) 75–79, (ii) 80–84, (iii) 85–89, (iv) 90–94, and Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median (v) 95 years and over, in each of the last three years for which data are available. [HL16784] 75-79 21 17 21 18 20 19 80-84 21 19 24 19 21 20 85-89 21 18 26 20 22 20 90-94 21 19 22 20 22 20 95 & 22 17 19 18 22 21 Earl Howe: The information is shown in the following over tables. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre Total number of finished consultant episodes (FCE)1 and FCEs where the patient gender is male with main Patient Inguinal operative procedure2 as specified by patient age group Age hernia for 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11. Group repair 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Activity in English National Health Service Hospitals Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median and English NHS commissioned activity in the 75-79 63 55 66 57 68 61 independent sector. 80-84 63 56 66 57 70 62 85-89 65 54 67 56 69 61 Patient Group Age Hip 90-94 64 57 64 58 65 55 Replacement 95 & 52 46 52 53 68 62 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 over Total Total Total Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social FCEs Male FCEs Male FCEs Male Care Information Centre 75-79 16,880 5,894 16,866 5,974 17,386 6,260 Patient Abdominal 80-84 14,401 4,076 14,550 4,413 15,299 4,581 Age aortic 85-89 11,231 2,736 11,486 2,816 11,330 2,901 Group aneurysm 90-94 4,255 927 4,306 921 4,958 1,163 aorta replacement 95 & 1,466 265 1,477 257 1,504 270 over 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre 75-79 35 26 35 25 37 27 80-84 38 26 37 26 38 28 Patient Knee 85-89 29 20 81 20 39 34 Age Replacement Group 90-94 - - 33 33 54 54 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 95 & ------over Total Total Total FCEs Male FCEs Male FCEs Male Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre 75-79 13,484 5,428 12,816 5,263 13,159 5,524 1 FAE 80-84 7,817 3,068 7,565 3,037 7,740 2,898 An FAE is the first period of inpatient care under one 85-89 2,763 944 2,772 1,015 2,891 1,090 consultant within one healthcare provider. FAEs are counted 90-94 287 95 284 95 389 127 against the year in which the admission episode finishes. 95 & 22 10 32 6 22 9 Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a over person may have more than one admission within the year. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social 2 Main procedure Care Information Centre The first recorded procedure or intervention in each episode, usually the most resource intensive procedure or intervention Patient Coronary performed during the episode. It is appropriate to use main Age artery procedure when looking at admission details, (eg time waited), Group bypass but a more complete count of episodes with a particular graft procedure is obtained by looking at the main and the secondary 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 procedures. Total Total Total FCEs Male FCEs Male FCEs Male

75-79 701 444 599 397 586 364 Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill 80-84 436 285 420 266 407 275 85-89 131 81 129 80 128 86 90-94 1276554 95 & ------To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many over (1) finished consultant episodes, and (2) finished Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social consultant episodes for males, took place for (a) hip Care Information Centre WA 337 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 338

represent the number of different patients, as a person many have Patient Cochlea more than one episode of care within the same stay in hospital or Age implant Group in different stays in the same year. 2 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Main procedure Total Total Total FCEs Male FCEs Male FCEs Male The first recorded procedure or intervention in each episode, usually the most resource intensive procedure 75-79 33 20 35 14 32 21 or intervention performed during the episode. It is 80-84 20 7 16 9 16 7 appropriate to use main procedure when looking at 85-89 755371admission details, (eg time waited), but a more complete 90-94 222232count of episodes with a particular procedure is obtained 95 & ------by looking at the main and the secondary procedures. over Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Patient Cholecystectomy (1) admissions, and (2) emergency admissions, took Age place for (a) hip replacement, (b) knee replacement, Group (c) coronary artery bypass graft, (d) cochlea implant, 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 and (e) cholecystectomy procedures, for patients Total Total Total aged (i) 75–79, (ii) 80–84, (iii) 85–89, (iv) 90–94 and, FCEs Male FCEs Male FCEs Male (v) 95 years and over, in each of the last three years [HL16785] 75-79 3,057 1,215 3,139 1,330 3,158 1,294 for which data are available. 80-84 1,321 515 1,420 581 1,425 588 Earl Howe: The information is shown in the following 85-89 486 196 480 168 445 154 tables. 90-94 61 23 53 16 69 •25 1 95 & 5 -9262Total number of finished admissions episodes (FAEs) over and FAEs where the method of admission is emergency3 2 Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social where a main operative procedure as identified has Care Information Centre been carried out, by age group for 2008-09, 2009-10 1 FCE and 2010-11. An FCE is a continuous period of admitted patient care Activity in English National Health Services Hospitals under one consultant within one healthcare provider. FCEs are and English NHS commissioned activity in the counted against the year in which they end. Figures do not independent sector.

Patient Age Hip replacement Group 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs

75-79 15,917 4,670 15,890 4,769 16,420 4,731 80-84 13,054 6,435 13,215 6,546 13,960 6,649 85-89 9,904 6,900 10,067 7,123 9,976 7,031 90-94 3,633 3,130 3,670 3,187 4,263 3,669 95 & over 1,263 1,202 1,283 1,224 1,271 1,215

Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

Patient Age Knee replacement Group 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs

75-79 13,382 64 12,716 61 13,075 35 80-84 7,735 80 7,510 50 7,685 61 85-89 2,721 37 2,736 42 2,860 45 90-94 278 12 274 9 383 7 95&over 20 4 31 3 21 3

Source Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre WA 339 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 340

Patient Age Coronary artery Group bypass graft 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Emergency Emergency Emergency Total FAEs FAEs Total FAEs FAEs Total FAEs FAEs

75-79 546 20 449 16 455 15 80-84 322 8 303 17 304 15 85-89 83 1 97 8 86 4 90-94 8 - 4 1 3 - 95&over ------

Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

Patient Age Group Cochlea Implant 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs

75-79 33 - 35 - 32 - 80-84 20 1 16 - 16 - 85-89 7 - 5 - 7 - 90-94 2 - 2 - 3 - 95&over------

Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre

Patient Age Cholecystectomy Group 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs Total FAEs Emergency FAEs

75-79 2,864 283 2,958 332 2,982 318 80-84 1,194 180 1,282 186 1,302 198 85-89 429 105 424 90 379 85 90-94 47 22 44 19 63 24 95&over 4 2 8 3 6 4

Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social 28 Emergency - other means, including patients who arrive Care Information Centre via the A&E department 1 FAE Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill An FAE is the first period of inpatient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. FAEs are counted To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the against the year in which the admission episode finishes. (1) mean, and (2) median waiting time, for (a) hip Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a replacement, (b) knee replacement, (c) coronary person may have more than one admission within the year. artery bypass graft, (d) cochlea implant, and 2 Main procedure (e) cholecystectomy procedures for patients aged The first recorded procedure or intervention in each episode, (i) 75–79, (ii) 80–84, (iii) 85–89, (iv) 90–94, and usually the most resource intensive procedure or intervention (v) 95 years and over, in each of the last three years performed during the episode. It is appropriate to use main for which data are available. [HL16786] procedure when looking at admission details, (eg time waited), but a more complete count of episodes with a particular procedure is obtained by looking at the main and the secondary procedures. 3 Emergency Admissions Earl Howe: The information is shown in the following tables. An emergency admission is one where the admission method is recorded as one of the following codes: Mean and median time waited (days) for finished admissions episodes1 with the main operative procedure2 21 Emergency - via Accident and Emergency (A&E) services, including the casualty department of the provider. as specified by patient age group for 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11. 22 Emergency - via General Practitioner (GP) Activity in English National Health Service Hospitals 23 Emergency - via Bed Bureau, including the Central Bureau and English NHS commissioned activity in the 24 Emergency - via consultant out-patient clinic independent sector. WA 341 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 342

Patient Hip Patient Cholecystectomy Age Replacement Age Group Group 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median

75-79 82 73 84 74 84 78 85-89 64 52 72 62 75 63 80-84 83 73 84 77 83 78 90-94 50 49 47 47 83 68 85-89 83 73 84 74 82 76 95 & 19 19 69 39 123 123 90-94 81 75 83 79 84 77 over 95 & 79 65 84 72 86 84 Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social over Care Information Centre 1 Finished admission episodes Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre An FAE is the first period of inpatient care under one consultant within one healthcare provider. FAEs are counted Patient Knee against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Age Replacement Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a Group person may have more than one admission within the year. 2 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Main procedure Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median The first recorded procedure or intervention in each episode, usually the most resource intensive procedure or intervention 75-79 87 77 88 78 89 82 performed during the episode. It is appropriate to use main 80-84 89 78 87 77 89 82 procedure when looking at admission details, (eg time waited), but a more complete count of episodes with a particular 85-89 88 79 87 79 90 85 procedure is obtained by looking at the main and the secondary 90-94 87 74 99 85 90 80 procedures. 95 & 94 59 80 88 88 81 over Health: Healthcare Assistants Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre Questions Asked by Lord Turnberg Patient Coronary Age artery To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures Group bypass they will take to ensure that healthcare assistants graft are adequately trained. [HL16729] 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): We have commissioned Skills 75-79 66 59 60 54 57 47 for Health and Skills for Care to develop, in partnership 80-84 68 66 60 51 57 51 with key stakeholders, a code of conduct and minimum 85-89 64 58 60 55 61 61 training standards for healthcare support workers and 90-94 81 78 77 97 87 82 adult social care workers in England, which will, for 95 & ------the first time, set clear expectations about standards of over conduct and training for these workers. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social It is, and will continue to be, for providers of Care Information Centre National Health Service-funded services and employers to ensure staff are appropriately trained for the role Patient Cochlea they are required to perform. This requirement is Age Implant Group underpinned by the Care Quality Commission’s 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 registration requirements. Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median The new standards will inform the development of a system of assured voluntary registration for this 75-79 37 31 70 67 58 58 group, which will enable employers to identify 80-84 79 61 48 41 58 55 appropriately trained and qualified workers. 85-89 50 46 30 23 77 70 Asked by Lord Turnberg 90-94 35 35 17 17 27 27 95 & ------To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they over will seek assurances from employing authorities that healthcare assistants in their employ are adequately Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre trained. [HL16730]

Patient Cholecystectomy Earl Howe: It is for providers of National Health Age Service funded services and employers to ensure their Group staff are trained for the role they are required to 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 perform. This is underpinned by the Care Quality Mean Median Mean Median Mean Median Commission’s registration requirements and associated guidance. 75-79 68 57 71 63 76 68 The Care Quality Commission has a range of powers 80-84 66 57 73 61 75 69 to enforce its registration requirements. WA 343 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 344

Asked by Lord Turnberg Health: Osteopathy To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Question they are taking to ensure that healthcare assistants Asked by Lord Harrison will join the proposed voluntary register. [HL16731] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of including osteopathy treatment Earl Howe: It will be a matter for each healthcare on the National Health Service. [HL16741] assistant to decide whether to apply to join a relevant assured voluntary register. However, being on an assured The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department voluntary register will help them to demonstrate to of Health (Earl Howe): The department does not maintain potential employers that they meet minimum standards, a position on any particular complementary or alternative for example around training and conduct. therapies, including osteopathy. It is the responsibility It would be open to employers to insist on using of local National Health Service organisations to make workers on an assured voluntary register and employers decisions on the commissioning and funding of such and providers may also wish to use the registration treatments, taking account of issues to do with safety, status of their workers to help demonstrate compliance clinical and cost effectiveness and the availability of with the Care Quality Commission’s registration suitably qualified/regulated practitioners. requirements relating to workers. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence recommends manual therapies, such as spinal Asked by Lord Turnberg manipulation, spinal mobilisation and massage as possible To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures treatments for persistent lower back pain. they will take to ensure that training programmes for healthcare assistants are adequate to ensure Health: Tuberculosis patient safety; and which bodies they expect to provide those programmes. [HL16732] Question Asked by Baroness Goudie To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action Earl Howe: We have commissioned Skills for Health they are taking to secure the achievement of the and Skills for Care to develop, in partnership with key millennium development goal on tuberculosis in stakeholders, a code of conduct and minimum training advance of World Tuberculosis Day on 24 March. standards for healthcare support workers and adult [HL16621] social care workers in England, which will, for the first time, set clear expectations about standards of conduct and training for these workers. Baroness Northover: The UK Government are committed to efforts to achieve the millennium We expect patient safety to be the driving principle development goal of reducing deaths from and prevalence behind the standards that Skills for Health and Skills of tuberculosis (TB) by half by 2015. Our efforts are for Care are developing. Further, the proposed voluntary through direct support to countries and international register for healthcare support workers, which the organisations. We work particularly through the Global standards will inform, will be reviewed three years Fund to Fight AIDS, TB and Malaria, which is the after it has been established to ensure that it is adequate largest single provider of international funds to fight to assure patient safety. TB. We also support co-ordinated action through the We will not be in a position to determine which Stop TB Partnership, and we fund research, including bodies we expect to provide training for healthcare research to develop more effective diagnostics and assistants until the recommended standards of training treatment to tackle TB. have been produced. Asked by Lord Turnberg Higher Education: Funding To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Question will make it obligatory for hospital trusts and care homes to employ healthcare assistants only when Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough they are entered on a voluntary register and are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the completing or have completed a recognised training projected revenue cost for full-time students in higher programme. [HL16733] education in England up to and including undergraduate level of (1) maintenance loans, and (2) maintenance grants, for the years 2012-13 to Earl Howe: We have made it clear that, once a 2014-15. [HL16612] system of assured voluntary registration has been operational for three years, we will commission a Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Estimates of the cost of strategic review of the relative benefits of assured (1) maintenance loans and (2) maintenance grants for voluntary registration, compared with statutory full-time students, consistent with the impact assessment registration. As part of that review, we will also consider published alongside the 2011 higher education White whether there is a case for mandating training. Paper, are as follows: WA 345 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 346

Cost/£m 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 on or after 1 September 2006 but before 1 September 2012: 25 years after their statutory repayment due (1) 3,200 3,300 3,450 date (SRDD); and Maintenance loans (cash on or after 1 September 2012: 30 years after their outlay) SRDD. (2) 1,350 1,450 1,500 The Education (Student Loans) Regulations state Maintenance that a borrower may repay all or any part of a student grants loan at any time by making direct payments to the Student Loans Company. Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough Higher Education: Student Loans To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Questions projected (a) revenue cost, and (b) resource cost, of fee loans for part-time students in higher education Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool in England up to and including undergraduate level for the years 2012-13 to 2014-15. [HL16613] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the average amount of money repayable against a student loan on the completion of a three-year degree; what Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Estimates of the (a) revenue is the total sum of money borrowed so far in cost and (b) resource cost of fee loans for part-time student loans; what is the average and total amount students, consistent with the impact assessment published of interest payable on such loans; what is the maximum alongside the 2011 higher education White Paper are period of repayment of a student loan; and what is as follows: stipulated in the student loan regulations about the Fee loans for early repayment of student loans. [HL16427] part-time students/£m 2012-12 2013-14 2014-15

(a) Cash 150 300 450 Baroness Verma: The average amount of debt owed outlay/ by borrowers who take out income contingent repayment revenue cost (ICR) loans is published by the Student Loans Company (b) Resource 100 200 300 (SLC) in the Official Statistics release Income Contingent cost Repayments by Repayment Cohort and Tax Year. The Asked by Baroness Sharp of Guildford most recent release was published in June 2011 and refers to financial year 2010-11 http://www.slc.co.uk/ To ask Her Majesty’s Government what will be media/77960/SLCOSP022011.pdf. the (1) minimum, and (2) maximum loan, available The publication contains a breakdown of the amount to students aged 24 and over taking a level 3 or of debt outstanding of all ICR borrowers by repayment higher course from 2013. [HL16807] cohort (year the borrower became liable to repay their loan) in table 3 (iii). SLC do not hold information on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department whether or not borrowers completed their course. The for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): figures in the table includes borrowers who did not The maximum amount of loan available will vary complete their course, borrowers whose courses were depending on the type of course. The Skills Funding longer or shorter than three years and borrowers who Agency will assign a maximum public funding rate received a loan for more than one course. available for each type of qualification and this will From academic years 1998-99 to 2010-11, £37.7 billion determine the maximum loan available. The agency’s has been borrowed in income contingent repayment funding rates for the 2013-14 academic year are due to loans, for maintenance and tuition fees. This figure be published by January 2013. includes English domiciled students, and EU domiciled A minimum loan amount will be set to take account students studying in England from 2006-07 onwards, of the administrative costs associated with collecting when they became eligible for tuition fee loans. the loan through the tax system. We expect the level of £3.3 billion has been added in interest to student the minimum to be in the region of £300 and this will debt from financial years 1998-99 to 2010-11. It is not be confirmed by July 2012, as part of the regulations appropriate to express this as an average, given the that are laid before Parliament to introduce the loans number of borrowers has changed over that period. system Under the income-contingent repayment (ICR) student Asked by Baroness Sharp of Guildford loans system, any outstanding loan balances will be cancelled in the following circumstances: To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the impact assessment relating to the introduction of if a borrower dies; or loans for further education students aged 24 and if a borrower receives a disability benefit and because over will be published. [HL16808] of the disability is permanently unfit for work. For those entering higher education (HE): Baroness Wilcox: BIS published an interim impact before 1 September 2006: when the borrower reaches assessment of the introduction of loans for further the age of 65; education in July last year. It is proposed to publish WA 347 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 348 the final stage impact assessment in May 2012, once Insurance it has been through the Cabinet Regulatory Policy Committee approval process. Question Asked by Lord Willoughby de Broke HMS “Caroline” To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the effect on the United Kingdom Question insurance industry of the European Commission Asked by Lord Browne of Belmont directive 2009/138/EC (Solvency II Framework). [HL16806] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to keep the historic naval vessel HMS “Caroline” at its present berth in Belfast. [HL16578] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): Solvency II is a review of insurance regulation which will create a single rulebook and single market The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry for insurers across Europe, with the overarching aim of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Discussions are of enhancing insurers’ financial soundness so as to continuing between the National Museum of the Royal ensure appropriate policyholder protection. Navy and authorities in Northern Ireland among others. An announcement will be made when a decision has There are over 700 UK-based insurance firms. Of been made on the future of HMS “Caroline”, which I these, Solvency II will apply to about 550-600 UK-based expect to be in the summer. insurance firms that will be in scope of the directive, as determined by Article 4 of the Solvency II Directive. Following Solvency II implementation, the current UK regime for insurers will continue to apply to Housing insurers that are out of scope of Solvency II. Question A macroeconomic impact assessment was conducted Asked by Lord Patten as part of the HM Treasury and Financial Services Authority consultations on the transposition of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Solvency II. A copy of this assessment is available on encourage the housebuilding industry to landscape HM Treasury’s public website, as Annexe A of the the edges of, and approaches to, housing Solvency II Framework (Directive 2009/138/EC) developments. [HL16799] Consultation at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/consult_ solvency2_framework_directive2009_138_ec.htm. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): The national planning policy framework sets out strong Insurance: Travel policies on design and makes clear that developments Questions should be visually attractive as a result of good architecture and appropriate landscaping. Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action Immigration they have taken to protect consumers from the practice of automatic opt-ins for insurance and Question other travel-related services. [HL16668] Asked by Lord Hunt of Chesterton To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they are The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord adapting their immigration policy to enable successful Sassoon): The Financial Services Authority (FSA) high-tech United Kingdom companies to expand in rules state that: the United Kingdom rather than abroad. [HL16809] “a firm must take reasonable steps to ensure a customer is given appropriate information about a policy in good time and in a comprehensible form so that the customer can make an informed The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): decision about the arrangements proposed”. In reforming the immigration system, the Government The FSA has published guidance on its website in has ensured that the system has the right degree of relation to online sales of travel insurance alongside selectivity to attract those who will make the greatest holidays. This guidance confirms that purchasing economic contribution. United Kingdom-based high-tech insurance should be an active and informed choice, companies continue to be able to source technical which consumers makes once they have received specialists and professionals from overseas through appropriate information on the main features of the tier two of the points-based system. Leaders in the policy including the benefits, significant exclusions field of science and technology may also be admitted and limitations and the price. They state that pre-ticking to work in the UK through the tier one (exceptional the insurance box interferes with customers’ ability to talent) route launched in August 2011 where their make an informed decision and they do not consider application is supported by an endorsing body such as that in most cases it will result in the kind of outcomes the Royal Society. for consumers they are looking for. WA 349 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 350

On other travel related services, the Consumer Rights Ofcom currently has no plans to offer any additional Directive (2011/83/EU), agreed last year, contains incentives to any winner of an 800MHz licence with a provisions whereby before any contract is agreed a coverage obligation. However through their Mobile trader must seek the express consent of consumers to Infrastructure Project, the Government are investing extra payments in addition to the remuneration for the £150 million to build new sites which all operators will trader’s main contractual obligation. If the trader have access to deploy services from, and it is intended infers consent by using default options, which the that this infrastructure should be usable, where feasible, consumer is required to reject in order to avoid the to bring 4G mobile broadband to rural areas. additional payment, the consumer is entitled to a refund of the extra charge. The directive will be implemented into UK law in June 2014. This provision Iran of the directive will apply to contracts for passenger Question transport services. Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government under what To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action legal authority the European Union and the Belgian- they will take against travel companies that charge based Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial rates above actual costs for telephone helpline Telecommunication (SWIFT) blocked financial services. [HL16669] transactions from Iranian banks and other financial institutions. [HL16755] Lord De Mauley: Travel companies operate in a competitive commercial market and have the freedom The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth to set charges for helplines, to meet the needs of the Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The European Union company and their customers. There are a wide range (EU) implemented a prohibition on the provision of of options available to companies in terms of tariffs, specialised financial messaging services to designated when deciding how much should be charged, to make entities on the basis of Council Decision 2012/152/CFSP information available to consumers through telephone and Regulation 267/2012 on restrictive measures against helpline services. Iran. These legal acts are, respectively, based on Article 29 Numbering is an operational issue for the independent of the Treaty on European Union, which enables the regulator, the Office of Communications (Ofcom). Council to adopt decisions on geographical or thematic Ofcom is considering how charges for services, which matters, and Article 215 of the Treaty on the Functioning include helplines that often use 08 number ranges, of the European Union, which provides for the could be more clearly set out and improved. Ofcom “interruption or reduction, in part or completely, of put forward possible changes in its consultation of economic and financial relations with one or more 16 December 2010 (http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/ third countries”. The Society for Worldwide Interbank consultations/simplifying-non-geo-numbers) and it will Financial Telecommunication (SWIFT) and other present detailed proposals in a further consultation providers are required to comply with these provisions. scheduled for the beginning of April. The EU has imposed tough and wide-ranging sanctions Ofcom intends to overhaul the charging of freephone targeted at persuading Iran to desist with its proliferation- (0800) numbers and other non-geographic ranges, sensitive activities. The EU legal acts build on sanctions including 084/087 numbers, whether calls to them are imposed against Iran by four United Nations Security made from a landline or a mobile telephone. The Council resolutions. The Government discourage all intentions set out in December 2010 included the trade with Iran and strongly support the targeting of recommendation that 0800 calls should be available Iranian banks and financial institutions that fund for no charge from fixed and mobile and that there Iran’s nuclear programme. should be clear pricing rules for revenue sharing ranges to allow price comparison between providers and restrict the ability of companies to exploit consumer confusion. Israel Question Internet: Broadband Asked by Baroness Tonge Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Asked by The Duke of Montrose will discuss with the Government of Israel the release of El Haj Ahmad from administrative To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to detention. [HL16685] the Written Answer by Baroness Garden of Frognal on 26 March (WA 212), whether the successful The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth 800 MHz licensee will receive any incentives which Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Parliamentary will not be available to all other 800 MHz licensees. Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth [HL16788] Affairs, m y honourable friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Mr Burt) raised Israel’s extensive Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The matter raised is an use of administrative detention with the Israeli operational one for the independent regulator, the ambassador on 23 February, the Deputy Israeli Foreign Office of Communications (Ofcom). Minister on 27 February and the Deputy Israeli Prime WA 351 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 352

Minister on 19 March. Our ambassador to Israel also Lord Howell of Guildford: Israel’s declaration of raised these issues with the Israeli Attorney General independence calls for the establishment of a Jewish on 24 February. state with equal social and political rights for all We continue to encourage the Israeli authorities to citizens, irrespective of religion, race or sex. comply with their obligations under international law, In principle Israel’s Palestinian citizens are therefore including in their policies on detention and the treatment afforded the protection of equality under Israel’s legal of Palestinian prisoners. system. However, the reality is more complex, with Our officials in Israel have not raised this particular certain in-built state and private sector mechanisms case with the Israeli authorities. that discriminate against non-Jewish citizens. We are concerned by a growing climate of intolerance in Israel. This has been exacerbated by a number of Israel and Palestine proposed laws which were before the Knesset (the Israeli Parliament) in 2011. Questions We strongly support efforts, including by the Israeli Asked by Lord Warner Government, to tackle discrimination and inequality between Jews and Arabs in Israel. We continue to urge To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they the application of Israel’s declaration of independence consider that action should be taken in an international and Israeli law to all citizens, regardless of religion or court on the expulsion of Palestinians from illegally ethnicity. occupied land. [HL16660] Asked by The Lord Bishop of Exeter The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We continue to representations they have made to the Government encourage the Israeli authorities to comply with their of Israel regarding restrictions that prevent access obligations as an occupying power under international by Palestinian Muslims and Christians to certain humanitarian law. We also urge the application of the holy sites in Israel. [HL16675] rule of law throughout Israel and the occupied territories, and that perpetrators of crimes should be brought to Lord Howell of Guildford: The UK places a high justice before the Israeli courts. importance on the right to freedom of religion for all. We remain deeply concerned about restrictions on The UK currently has no plans to refer this situation freedom of movement between the West Bank and to any international court. East Jerusalem, and elsewhere in the Occupied Palestinian Asked by Lord Hylton Territories. It remains difficult for Palestinians, including To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Christians and Muslims, to enter East Jerusalem or representations they have made to the Government other places of pilgrimage in Israel. of Israel and to the Palestinian Authority about The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for violence by Israeli settlers against Palestinian residents Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my honourable of the West Bank. [HL16664] friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Mr Burt), visited Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories in July 2011 and raised with Israeli authorities the Lord Howell of Guildford: We are deeply concerned difficulties faced by Christians and in particular the at the increase in violence by extremist settlers against impact of residency restrictions in Jerusalem. ordinary Palestinians. This violence has included burning We are also in discussion with religious leaders and of mosques. other governments over finding ways to protect the As the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for State for holy sites of Jerusalem and elsewhere in Israel and the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my honourable Occupied Palestinian Territories. friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Mr Burt) Asked by Baroness Tonge has commented publicly, we condemn such acts as deliberately provocative attacks on places of worship, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans designed to aggravate tensions. they have to support the democratic process within We welcome the clear condemnation of these attacks the Occupied Territories at the next election. by Israeli leaders, and the stated intention of the [HL16684] Israeli Government to bring the perpetrators to justice. We have urged Israel to investigate all such incidents Lord Howell of Guildford: The UK, along with our of violence and to hold those responsible to account. European Union partners, fully supports the holding The package of measures announced by Prime Minister of free and fair elections across the Occupied Palestinian Netanyahu in response to settler violence is a welcome Territories, including West Bank, Gaza and East step forward. We look forward to seeing the results of Jerusalem. The UK provides practical and technical these measures, and to seeing those behind the violence support, including to the office of the quartet punished under law. representative, to reinforce the prospects for peace, economic development and stability in the region. Asked by The Lord Bishop of Exeter We are following closely the implementation of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they agreement reached on 6 February 2012 between Fatah have made an assessment of whether there is state and Hamas on the formation of a technocratic discrimination against Israel’s Palestinian citizens; government, to be led by President Abbas, to prepare and, if so, what are their conclusions. [HL16674] for elections. WA 353 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 354

Any technocratic government should: be composed or impossible for Palestinians to get permission to join of figures committed to the principles set by President their spouses or parents in East Jerusalem, which we Abbas in Cairo in May 2011; uphold the principle of regard as occupied territory. non-violence; be committed to a negotiated two-state Along with our EU partners, we regularly raise solution, and accept previous agreements of the Palestinian issues relating to access and residency in Israel and the Liberation Organisation. Occupied Palestinian Territories. Asked by Baroness Tonge Israel and Palestine: West Bank To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Questions representations they have made to the Government Asked by Lord Hylton of Israel regarding tourism infrastructure being developed by settlers in the West Bank. [HL16682] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the United Kingdom and other European Union member states will consider imposing personal sanctions Lord Howell of Guildford: The UK has made frequent against any settler leaders in the West Bank suspected representations to the Israeli authorities on issues of organising attacks on Palestinians and their relating to house demolitions and settlement building. property. [HL16665] Our views on settlements, including in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, are clear: they are illegal under The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth international law, an obstacle to peace and constitute Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The UK is concerned a threat to a two-state solution. about reports of an increase in violence by extremist All settlement activity, including in East Jerusalem, settlers during 2011. should cease immediately. We have made clear our Along with our European partners, we are considering concerns to the Israeli authorities, both bilaterally and what further actions can be taken in response to with European Union partners, and will continue to continued Israeli settlement activity and settler violence, do so. including the possibility of excluding from the European During his visit to the Occupied Palestinian Territories Union those settler leaders who are assessed as inciting in January 2012, my honourable friend the Parliamentary violence. Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Asked by Lord Hylton Affairs, the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Mr Burt), saw at first hand the impact on Palestinian To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment communities of the development of infrastructure to they have made of the two reports from European support illegal settlements, an issue he has raised with Union Heads of Mission in Jerusalem concerning the Israeli government during the visit and subsequently. the trebling in three years of attacks by settlers on the people of the West Bank; and what action they Asked by Baroness Tonge plan to take in response. [HL16666] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the Government of Israel’s Lord Howell of Guildford: The documents to which petition to Israel’s Supreme Court to construct a the noble Lord refers are internal reports by the European new settlement in the West Bank, for the evacuees Union Heads of Mission in Jerusalem and Ramallah, from Migron; and whether they will discourage which are under consideration in Brussels. It is unfortunate this. [HL16686] that these documents have leaked. It is government policy not to comment on leaked documents. Asked by The Lord Bishop of Exeter Lord Howell of Guildford: Along with European Union colleagues, we are deeply concerned at the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what agreement recently reached between Migron settlers representations they have made to the Government and the Israeli government. On Sunday 25 March, of Israel regarding the Citizenship and Entry into Israel’s Supreme Court rejected the government’s petition Israel Law (Temporary Order) 5763, which prohibits to allow settlers to stay until 2015. Had this deal been inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza married to ratified, it would have set a dangerous precedent and Israeli citizens from acquiring Israeli residency permits runs entirely contrary to Israel’s obligations under the or citizenship. [HL16676] quartet roadmap. We have raised our concerns strongly with the Israeli government, including with the Vice Lord Howell of Guildford: Whilst Israeli nationality Prime Minister, Ministry for Foreign Affairs and National law and immigration into Israel are matters for the Security Adviser. Israeli government and parliament, we and European Asked by Baroness Tonge Union (EU) partners have concerns about the implications of this law for the families of Arab Israelis and, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they particularly, Palestinian permanent residents in East will take action to ensure that solar panels and Jerusalem. other alternative energy generators installed in West This particularly affects those who have married, Bank villages by international non-governmental or wish to marry, Palestinians from the West Bank or organisations are not demolished by the Government Gaza. In many cases the law has made it difficult of Israel if there are not permits for them.[HL16710] WA 355 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 356

Baroness Northover: The UK position on the taken specific actions to increase security around the demolition of Palestinian homes and essential sites, including placing a static guard at the gates and infrastructure, such as energy generators, in the West ensuring the cemeteries are part of regular police Bank is clear and consistent, regardless of whether patrols. these initiatives are funded by international non- These attacks appear to have been carried out by governmental organisations or Palestinians themselves. extremist individuals. A number of religious sites in Such demolitions cause unnecessary suffering to ordinary Libya have also been attacked since the revolution Palestinians, are harmful to the peace process and, in began, including Islamic sites. all but the most limited circumstances, are contrary to UK officials continue to visit the cemeteries on a international humanitarian law and we condemn them. regular basis and are in close contact with the The UK has a strong record of lobbying hard on Commonwealth War Graves Commission to facilitate issues relating to demolitions. The Secretary of State inspections and restorations. and Minister of State for International Development, my right honourable friends the Members for Sutton Coldfield and for Rutland and Melton (Mr Mitchell Marine Environment: Scotland and Mr Duncan), have both visited Palestinian Question communities affected by demolitions in recent visits to Asked by Lord MacKenzie of Culkein the region. Most recently, the Parliamentary Under- Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether Affairs, my honourable friend the Member for North responsibility for safety at sea and the avoidance of East Bedfordshire (Mr Burt), raised the issue of pollution around the coasts of Scotland is devolved demolitions with the Israeli ambassador on 23 February to the Scottish Executive or is a reserved matter. and again with Israeli Deputy Prime Minister Dan [HL16718] Meridor on 19 March. Together with our EU partners, we continue to press Israel to address our serious The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace concerns about the restrictive planning regime in Area C of Tankerness): Legislation relating to safety at sea is a of the West Bank, including the unnecessary difficulties reserved matter. The UK Parliament is responsible for that Palestinian and international organisations face legislating for pollution from oil and gas exploration in obtaining building permits. More fundamentally, outside of controlled waters and from ships in all we urge Israel to greatly accelerate the process for waters around the UK. The Scottish Parliament is transferring authority over Area C to the Palestinian responsible for marine pollution within controlled waters Authority. from all sources other than ships.

Libya Nanotechnology and Pictoechnology Question Question Asked by Lord Patten Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to assessment of the development of (1) nanotechnologies, the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford and (2) picotechnologies, in the United Kingdom. on 21 March (WA175), after officials visited Benghazi [HL16798] on 25 February and raised the desecration of war graves there with the Libyan Ministry of Foreign The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Affairs and the Benghazi Chief of Police, for what for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): reasons they were satisfied with assurances given, in Nanotechnologies (and picotechnologies incorporated the light of further desecration the next day; and within this) cover a diverse range of technologies. The why earlier public condemnation was ruled out. Government Office for Science report Technology and [HL16747] Innovation Futures, published in November 2010, identified nanotechnologies as one of the key technological areas The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth that has the potential to promote economic growth in Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The first attack the UK over the next 20 years. The report identified took place on 24 February in the Commonwealth War significant UK capabilities in nanotechnologies in the Graves Commission Cemetery. UK officials took UK, including a world-class reputation in nanotechnologies immediate action, raising with the Libyan authorities research with a strong research base and strengths in in Benghazi, and then following up in Tripoli. On nanotechnology standards. 26 February National Transitional Council Chairman The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Mustafa Abdul Jalil and Libyan Foreign Minister Ben provides funding for the Technology Strategy Board Khayyal both made public statements condemning (TSB) and the Research Councils UK (RCUK) to the attacks and that these locations should be respected. support the development of nanotechnologies in the UK officials immediately raised this again following UK and promote responsible innovation, which will the news of a further attack on 26 February on the provide positive impact in the areas of energy, healthcare British Military Cemetery. The transitional Government and the environment. The UK Government have been responded by issuing a very clear statement on fully engaged in activities in Brussels to consider whether 28 February, and have been consistently supportive; the relevant EU regulatory frameworks are adequate they were likewise appalled by these crimes, and have in their application to nanotechnologies. WA 357 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 358

National Offender Manager Service: The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Forms Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government are committed to working with the Nigerian authorities Question in finding lasting solutions to security threats to ensure Asked by Lord Jopling that Nigerians of all religions can live in peace. Co-operation to strengthen Nigeria’s security architecture To ask Her Majesty’s Government, on the form was outlined as a key element of our bilateral relationship BUS_UD_PUARF, issued by the National Offender when the Prime Minister, my right honourable friend Manager Service, what is the purpose of the option the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) met President on page 4 of responding “Other” to the question Goodluck Jonathan in July 2011; this commitment “gender” instead of “male” or “female”; and why was reaffirmed when they met on 22 February 2012. there is no opportunity for applicants responding The Government will continue to share expertise in “Other” to explain the status of their gender. counterterrorism policy, doctrine and legal frameworks. [HL16540] We will also continue to support programmes in Nigeria that focus on addressing grievances that underpin conflict. This work has included establishing a Nigeria The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Stability and Reconciliation Programme and promoting McNally): Form BUS_UD_PUARF is the Prison- interethnic and interfaith dialogue. In February 2012 NOMIS user account set-up authorisation form. It is our High Commissioner to Nigeria travelled to Plateau completed for individual members of staff and the State, meeting with local religious and political leaders information gathered is used to populate users’ account and demonstrating our support of dialogue and peace information on the Prison-NOMIS system. initiatives. The version of the form containing the “male/female/ other” options has now been superseded. The current version of the form (V 13, which has been in use for Non-governmental Organisations over a year) contains a blank text field for “gender”. Question This text field is delimited, which means that as much or as little information as the member of staff wishes Asked by The Earl of Sandwich to disclose can be recorded on the form. To ask Her Majesty’s Government which Afghan non-governmental organisations they have assisted NHS: Private Finance Initiative Schemes in the last two years, either directly or through Question international non-governmental aid organisations. [HL16688] Asked by Lord Mawhinney To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Baroness Northover: As part of our international hospital private finance initiative projects have been aid transparency guarantee, where security permits undertaken without the approval, at the time the the Department for International Development (DfID) decision was made, of Monitor or the economic publishes the details of all partner organisations on regulator at the time. [HL16763] our projects database, at http://projects.dfid.gov.uk/. However, we do not publish information about DfID’s partners where the disclosure of such information The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department poses a risk to their operations and staff on security of Health (Earl Howe): Monitor does not approve grounds. As a result, it is not possible for us to provide private finance initiative (PFI) schemes. Monitor is the full information on our non-governmental organisation independent regulator of National Health Service partners in Afghanistan. foundation trusts, directly accountable to Parliament. In its role of ensuring that existing NHS foundation trusts comply with their terms of authorisation, Monitor Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012: will review major investment plans such as PFI proposals Olympic Truce and provide a considered opinion to the board of the foundation trust. The great majority of PFI schemes Questions signed to date were undertaken by NHS trusts and Asked by Lord Bates primary care trusts. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has Nigeria had with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office Question about their plans for the implementation of the United Nations Resolution declaring the Olympic Asked by Baroness Cox Truce for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Games. [HL16768] will make representations to the Government of Nigeria about ensuring adequate security for religious Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The Department for Culture, minorities in the Middle Belt and Northern States, Media and Sport (DCMS) has regular discussions following recent attacks on churches in Jos. with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) [HL16606] about its plans for implementing the UN Resolution WA 359 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 360 on the Olympic Truce. These include informal discussions Asked by Lord Bates between officials as well as discussions at FCO-hosted Olympic Truce stakeholder meetings. Four of these To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions meetings have been held since September 2011. the Northern Ireland Office has had with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office about their plans for The FCO is co-ordinating the Government’s the implementation of the United Nations Resolution international response to the UN Resolution on the declaring the Olympic Truce for the London 2012 Olympic Truce in support of pursuing the Government’s Olympic and Paralympic Games. [HL16771] conflict prevention objectives as set out in the Government’s Building Stability Overseas strategy.DCMS worked closely with the FCO in drafting the Olympic Truce resolution, which was signed by a record 193 UN Lord Shutt of Greetland: The Foreign and member states. Commonwealth Office is co-ordinating the government In addition, the London 2012 organising committee international response to the UN Resolution on the (LOCOG) is promoting the Olympic Truce to young Olympic Truce in support of pursuing the Government’s people in schools and colleges through its Get Set conflict prevention objectives as set out in the education programme, and through community projects Government’s building stability overseas strategy. in their Inspire programme. Asked by Lord Bates More broadly, International Inspiration (II) is delivering on the Games bid to reach young people all over the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions world and connect them to the inspirational power of the Scotland Office has had with the Foreign and the Games through sport. II is now working in 20 countries Commonwealth Office about their plans for the across the world, and more than 12 million young implementation of the United Nations Resolution people have been reached through the programme. declaring the Olympic Truce for the London 2012 DCMS will continue to work closely with the FCO Olympic and Paralympic Games. [HL16772] in the lead up to the Games to support the Olympic Truce. Asked by Lord Bates The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness): There have been no discussions between To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions the Scotland Office and Foreign and Commonwealth the Department for International Development has Office on the implementation of the Olympic Truce. had with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is about their plans for the implementation of the co-ordinating the Government’s international response United Nations Resolution declaring the Olympic to the UN Resolution on the Olympic Truce in support Truce for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic of pursuing the Government’s conflict prevention Games. [HL16770] objectives as set out in the Government’s Building Stability Overseas strategy. We will support the work of the FCO in delivering action together overseas wherever we can. Baroness Northover: The Department for International Asked by Lord Bates Development (DfID) has regular discussions with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) about its To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions plans for implementing the UN Resolution on the the Wales Office has had with the Foreign and Olympic Truce. These include informal discussions Commonwealth Office about their plans for the between officials as well as discussions at FCO-hosted implementation of the United Nations Resolution Olympic Truce stakeholder meetings. Four of these declaring the Olympic Truce for the London 2012 meetings have been held since September 2011. The Olympic and Paralympic Games. [HL16773] Government wish to congratulate the noble Lord on his significant contribution on this. The FCO is co-ordinating the Government’s international response to the UN Resolution on the Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The Foreign and Olympic Truce in support of pursuing the Government’s Commonwealth Office is co-ordinating the Government’s conflict prevention objectives as set out in the international response to the UN Resolution on the Government’s Building Stability Overseas Strategy. Olympic Truce in support of pursuing the Government’s DfID is scaling up its work in fragile and conflict-affected conflict prevention objectives as set out in the states and is committed to building peaceful states and Government’s building stability overseas strategy. The societies. For example, DfID recently made a core Wales Office is supporting the work of the FCO contribution of £55 million (2011-12 to 2014-15) to through meetings with foreign delegations looking to the United Nations Peacebuilding Fund, which fills a visit Wales and building business or cultural relationships crucial gap in the international system to stop countries with Wales. returning to conflict. The Olympic Truce provides an The Wales Office also works with the Department important opportunity to promote peace and stability for Culture, Media and Sport on specific initiatives overseas. DfID will continue to work closely with the that build on the values that underpin the Games. FCO in the lead-up to the Olympics to support the These include the Get Set programme, the London Olympic Truce. 2012 education programme, and the Inspire programme. WA 361 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 362

Overseas Conflict: UK Involvement Pensions Question Questions Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to parliamentary approval is required before United the Written Statement by Lord Wallace of Saltaire Kingdom involvement in any military conflict on 15 March (WS 43-4), what are the current and overseas. [HL16766] future employer and employee rates of contributions to ministerial pensions; what are the related Exchequer contributions; and what is the level of the liability Lord Wallace of Saltaire: As stated in the Cabinet for ministerial pensions. [HL16584] Manual, a convention has developed in the House of Commons that before troops are committed the House Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The current member of Commons should have an opportunity to debate contributions to the Ministerial Pension Scheme vary the matter. The Government propose to observe that depending on the level of benefits they receive as convention except when there is an emergency and follows: such action would not be appropriate. Ministerial Pension Scheme Member contribution rates: Annual rate of benefit accrual:

11.9% of pay 1/40th Palestine 7.9% of pay 1/50th Question 5.9% of pay 1/60th Asked by Baroness Tonge With effect from 1 April 2012, members of the Ministerial Pension Scheme will pay an additional To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to contribution based on their level of responsibility as the United Nations Office for the Co-ordination of follows: Humanitarian Affairs report How Dispossession Happens, what steps they will take to assist in the Level of responsibility: Additional contribution: restoration of Palestinian access to water springs fully taken over by settlers, and regarding any Secretaries of State, the Leader 2.4% of pay intimidation from settler presence and intentions of the Opposition in the Commons and Speaker in the on takeover of the remaining springs. [HL16681] House of Lords Ministers of State, the 1.6% of pay Government Chief Whip, the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Leader of the Opposition in the Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government Lords, the Chairman of remain concerned about the activity of Israeli settlers Committees of the House of Lords and the Deputy in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, particularly Chairman of Committees of the violence by extremist settlers against Palestinians and House of Lords religious sites, and the taking of land and resources. Parliamentary Under- 1% of pay The UK, along with our European Union partners, is Secretaries, the Government clear that settlements are illegal under international Whips and Opposition Whips law and should be removed. We are also concerned about the provision of security and services to illegal The Exchequer contribution to the Parliamentary settlements by the State of Israel, in a way that is not Contributory Pension Fund (PCPF) is currently 28.7% matched by similar provision to Palestinian communities of pay, made up of 20.2% for member benefits and living under occupation. 8.5% for deficit reduction. The PCPF covers the pension The fair and effective distribution of shared water provision for MPs and officeholders (including members resources across Israel and the Occupied Palestinian of the Ministerial Pension Scheme). The Government Territories is of great concern to us. These resources Actuary’s Department has been undertaking a valuation are limited and therefore require effective co-operation of the PCPF and this will be laid in the Libraries of from all parties to manage them in a manner that both Houses in due course; this valuation will include ensures there will be enough for all. a recommended Exchequer contribution and will take We have regular discussions with the Israelis and account of the member contribution increases in the the Palestinian Authorities on the issue of access to Ministerial Pension Scheme. water, including on the urgent need for Israel to ensure The Government Actuary’s Department published fairer distribution of water supplies in the West Bank the Parliamentary Pension Fund Valuation as at 1 April and Gaza. The Minister of State for International 2008 and the liabilities of the PCPF were £418.1 million Development, my right honourable Friend the Member (HC 345); this liability covers pension benefits provided for Rutland and Melton (Mr Duncan) raised the issue to members of the MPs’Pension Scheme and officeholders of water when he visited the region in June 2011 and (including members of the Ministerial Pension Scheme). the Embassy in Tel Aviv raised it with the Israeli This valuation also shows the actuarial liability for authorities in January 2012. active members of officeholder schemes and deferred WA 363 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 364 members of officeholder schemes who were still MPs, developed but where the remains of the permanent but does not show separately the liabilities for deferred structure or fixed surface structure have blended into and pensioner members for officeholders. the landscape in the process of time. Asked by Lord Laird Asked by Lord Patten To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether there the Written Answer by Baroness Hanham on 19 March is a minimum size for a brownfield site. [HL16801] (WA 144), why, if their policy is to use the consumer prices index instead of the retail prices index as the Baroness Hanham: There is no minimum size for a preferred measure of prices, they have decided to previously developed (brownfield) site. revalue certain public sector superannuation scheme benefits using the retail prices index. [HL16656] Police: South Wales Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): Asked by Lord Laird The Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 1992 and the New To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 2006 in England provide will consider initiating an investigation conducted for certain benefits to be uprated in line with the retail by a Supreme Court judge or judges into the collapse prices index. These are those benefits associated with of the Lynette White trial and any related actions additional pension benefit earned under continued by South Wales Police. [HL16632] professional development and the long service increment. The schemes provide for these to be uprated in line with retail prices index during an active member’s The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): accrual phase but once in payment or deferred these The Government have no plans to set up a judicial benefits are uprated in line with pensions increase, inquiry on this matter. which is currently the consumer prices index. On 26 October 2011, a consultation on a proposed Powers of Entry suite of amendments to the two firefighters’ pension schemes closed. Among other proposed changes, this Questions contained provisions to amend the uprating of additional Asked by Lord Marlesford pension benefits in the schemes during a member’s active accrual phase to be in accordance with the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Pensions (Increase) Act 1971. The department will the remarks by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary respond to the outcome of this consultation shortly. of State for the Home Office, James Brokenshire, on 19 March (Official Report, Commons, col. 530) regarding the 19 applications to create or amend Planning powers of entry which have been considered through Questions the Home Office Gateway, for each of those what was (1) the date of application, (2) the originating Asked by Lord Patten department, (3) the powers sought, (4) the powers agreed, and (5) the date on which the powers came To ask Her Majesty’s Government what they into force. [HL16679] mean when using the word “brownfield” in relation to planning. [HL16800] To ask Her Majesty’s Government which (1) Acts of Parliament, and (2) statutory instruments, which The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department have introduced powers of entry, have come into for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): force in the current Parliament, and in each case “Brownfield” is the term commonly used to describe whether the powers of entry are subject to either land that has been previously developed. The National agreement or warrant. [HL16680] Planning Policy Framework sets out a clear definition of previously developed land for planning purposes The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): based on case law: land which is or was occupied by a The Home Office Gateway has dealt with 19 applications permanent structure, including the curtilage of the to date seeking to create, amend or re-enact powers of developed land (although it should not be assumed entry. The table below details the powers that were that the whole of the curtilage should be developed) assessed and are now in force and the safeguards and any associated fixed surface infrastructure. This which have been provided in respect of their use. excludes: land that is or has been occupied by agricultural 19 powers have been repealed as part of the process. or forestry buildings; land that has been developed for The remaining 11 Regulations containing powers of minerals extraction or waste disposal by landfill purposes entry are still subject to Parliamentary approval. However where provision for restoration has been made through information relating to any powers enacted during the development control procedures; land in built-up areas current Parliament before the Gateway commenced such as private residential gardens, parks, recreation are not held centrally and could not be obtained grounds and allotments; and land that was previously without incurring disproportionate cost. WA 365 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 366

Date of Originating Date and title of application Department Powers requested Powers agreed enactment Agreement/Warrant

1 Mar-11 Defra Re-enact power of A revised The Animal By- Yes entry and add general power of Products warrant to exclude entry that (Enforcement) from the food chain excludes (England) animal by products domestic Regulations 2011 (ABPs) particularly dwellings. those that are ‘high- Warrant added risk’ which carry a significant risk to animals and human health

2 Apr-11 Defra To consolidate 15 powers Energy Information Yes powers of entry repealed Regulations 2011 under new energy replaced with labelling regulations single power of to enforce EU entry. Domestic Directive to improve dwellings the environmental excluded. performance of Warrant added products through provision of information to consumers

3 May-11 DECC New power of entry New power Storage of Carbon N/A to comply with the limited to Dioxide implementation of offshore (Inspections etc.) European Directive inspection of Regulations 2012 2009/31/EC on the industrial sites. storage of carbon Domestic dioxide (which can dwellings be hazardous to excluded. public health / environment) as per Energy Act 2008 licensing regime

4 Jun-11 Defra New power needed Thisisanew Alien and Locally Yes to implement power of entry. Absent Species in Council Regulation It excludes Aquaculture (EC) No 708/2007 domestic (England and that establishes dwelling, adds Wales) Regulations framework governing need for 2011 aquaculture practices reasonable in relation to alien notice and and locally absent warrant species. The introduction of non- native animals and fauna must be controlled by inspection to protect wildlife and environment from harm

5 Sep-11 Defra New power needed Thisisanew Forest Law Yes to enforce the power of entry. Enforcement, European ‘FLEGT’ It excludes Governance and Regulations which domestic Trade Regulations make it illegal to dwellings, adds 2012 import timber from need for partner countries reasonable without valid licence notice and andtoprevent warrant illegally harvested timber products entering the UK from these countries. WA 367 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 368

Date of Originating Date and title of application Department Powers requested Powers agreed enactment Agreement/Warrant

6 Nov-11 Defra To consolidate all 4 predecessor Wine Regulations Yes existing UK wine UK powers 2011 legislation — enforce repealed under EU wine rules revised law. The relating to power of entry manufacture and sale excludes of wine products and domestic sets out inspection dwellings, and enforcement removes force practice. and adds warrant 7 Aug-11 Defra To make provision Revised power Veterinary Yes for the authorisation, of entry. The Medicines manufacture, power excludes Regulations 2011 classification, most* domestic distribution and dwellings, adds administration of need for veterinary medicinal reasonable products and enforce notice, removes European laws on the force and adds marketing, use and warrant - *entry labelling of feed to licensed containing specified premises is additives. Powers of allowed entry are required to enforce the measures. 8 Jan-12 Defra To introduce revised Revised power Non Commercial Yes UK Pet Travel of entry. The Movement of Pet Scheme to align power excludes Animals Order 2011 rabies import domestic requirements with dwellings, those currently removes force applied by other and adds member states under warrant Regulation (EC) No 998/2003. The UK must also enforce EU legislation that protect against the risk of other diseases entering the UK via pet movements: highly pathogenic avian influenza, Nipah and Hendra disease, Monkey pox virus and the tapeworm Echinococcus multilocularis.

Qatar Railways: Privatisation Question Question Asked by Lord Mawhinney Asked by Lord Berkeley To ask Her Majesty’s Government what To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many representations they have received from the people were employed in the United Kingdom rail Government of Qatar in the past three weeks regarding industry, including Network Rail, passenger and the visit of Sir David Richards to that country. freight train operators and their subcontractors, [HL16764] (1) at the time of privatisation, and (2) in 2011. [HL16774]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The Chief of Defence Staff, Sir David Richards, visited Qatar on 27 March 2012, where he met the Qatari Chief of Staff and Lord De Mauley: The information is not available reaffirmed the strong relationship between the UK in the format requested. Research undertaken as part and Qatar. Her Majesty’s Government received no of Sir Roy McNulty’s independent Rail Value for representations from the Government of Qatar in the Money Study identified that employee numbers in the preceding three weeks regarding the visit. GB rail industry rose from 81,000 in 1996-97 to 92,000 WA 369 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 370 in 2008-09. These figures relate to staff employed by themselves with the rules of the Highway Codes for Network Rail, the passenger and freight operators and Great Britain and Northern Ireland, including those open access operators. concerning the use of pavements.

Roads: Litter Schools: Building Schools for the Future Question Question Asked by Lord Marlesford Asked by Lord Storey To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has been the total expenditure of public funds by the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the Highways Agency on litter clearance from motorways predicted and actual cost of the Building Schools and trunk roads in each of the last three years; and for the Future programme. [HL16615] what arrangements are in place to monitor the effective use of these funds and to enforce the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for obligations of the contractors to keep the roads free Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): In May 2009 the of litter. [HL16759] Public Accounts Committee (Twenty-seventh Report of Session 2008-09 HC 274 11 June 2009) reported the Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Section 89 of the Department for Children, Schools and Families estimate Environmental Protection Act 1990 places a duty on of the overall cost of the Building Schools for the the Highways Agency to clear litter from motorways Future (BSF) programme to be £52 billion to £55 billion and a small number of trunk roads in England. The over its lifetime. removal of litter from the majority of trunk roads in The BSF programme was halted in July 2010. To England is the responsibility of local authorities. date a total of £5.2 billion of conventional capital Litter collection on motorways is one of the numerous support has been provided, and £5.1 billion in PFI duties carried out by the agency’s managing agents as credits have been allocated. It is expected that a further part of their routine maintenance function. Exact £1.1 billion of capital grant will be paid out over the litter clearance costs cannot be extracted, as the activity next three years to complete the remaining projects. is performed on both a planned and an ad hoc basis. Annually, the agency collects approximately 240,000 sacks of litter. Schools: Special Educational Needs The cost of collection, after allowing for overheads, traffic management to protect staff and the cost of Question disposal, is estimated to be £40 per sack. The annual Asked by Lord Storey cost to the agency therefore is about £9.6 million. The performance requirements for cleaning and To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to sweeping expected of the agency’s managing agents the Written Answer by Lord Hill of Oareford on are consistent with the code of practice on litter and 16 March (WA 124), what amount of funding was refuse issued under the Environmental Protection Act allocated and distributed to special educational needs 1990 and are set out in the agency’s Network Management co-ordinators to undertake qualifications in special Manual and Routine and Winter Service Code. educational needs in the three years up to March 2012; and how that funding was allocated regionally. Agency route managers perform monthly audits of [HL16616] the environmental amenity of stretches of randomly selected agency routes. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): Since September 2009 Roads: Pedestrians the Department for Education has provided funding Question to the Training and Development Agency for schools (TDA) to provide up to 9,000 training places for the Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon national SENCO award. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Over £28.2 million has been committed to deliver the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 20 March 8,806 training places across England up until the end (WA 160), whether they will take action, through of March 2012. signage or other measures, to ensure (1) blind and The TDA, through an open tender process, disabled pedestrians, and (2) other pedestrians, are commissioned 26 training providers, mainly universities, not put at risk by cyclists or motor vehicles when to deliver the training. One of the main objectives in using pavements, and to ensure that cyclists and approving providers was to ensure, as far as possible, motorists are informed of the rights of pedestrians. equality of access across England. Training providers [HL16765] are able to work with a range of local authorities to deliver the training. Lord De Mauley: The Department for Transport Distance learning provision is also available to ensure has no plans to take any additional action in this that SENCOs are not disadvantaged where they do respect. The onus is on all road users to familiarise not have access to a local training provider. WA 371 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 372

The table below shows the regional breakdown. Lord Hill of Oareford: The department is aware of The amount of funding allocated per region is based studies in these areas and received some details of on a percentage of total places funded across England. them amongst the responses to the consultation on the proposed new school premises regulations. All responses Funding are currently being analysed by officials and relevant allocation evidence will be taken into account when finalising the (based on Number of percentage of detailed requirements for school toilet and washing funded total number facilities. training places Percentage of of places Region taken up total funded* funded) Asked by Baroness Tonge

North East 501 6% £1,695,618 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures North West 1295 15% £4,239,045 they are taking to ensure that changes in regulation Yorkshire and 1071 12% £3,391,236 of school toilet and washing facilities will not have the Humber a negative impact on children’s health and education. East 853 10% £2,826,030 [HL16736] Midlands West 960 11% £3,108,633 Midlands Lord Hill of Oareford: The department consulted East of 955 11% £3,108,633 England widely on the proposed changes to the school premises Inner London 244 3% £847,809 regulations. During the 12-week consultation period Outer London 433 4% £1,130,412 officials held workshops on the proposed changes, South East 1182 13% £3,673,839 which were attended by those with an interest in the South West 885 10% £2,826,030 areas being covered. One workshop covered school toilet and washing facilities, and other welfare issues. Not specified 427 5% £1,413,015 (distance One hundred and forty organisations and individuals learning) commented on the proposed regulation for toilet and Total 8806 100% £28,260, 300 washing facilities. These included schools, local authorities, * Figures have been rounded up to the nearest percentage. the dioceses, technical and professional organisations and the unions. We believe that together they represent a sufficient range of interests against which to check Schools: Toilets and Washing Facilities that our proposals will not risk children’s health and education. Questions Asked by Baroness Tonge To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Shipping: Towing Vessels they have made of the current state of school toilets Questions and washing facilities; and how those facilities will be affected by any changes in regulation in this Asked by Lord MacKenzie of Culkein area. [HL16734] To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the emergency towing vessel “Anglian Monarch” was withdrawn from service on the evening of 17 March, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for rather than at the end of March; and what notice Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The department has was given to mariners and other interested parties. not made such an assessment, but is aware of a number [HL16719] of studies on the condition of school toilet and washing facilities. These were referred to by several respondents to the recent consultation on the proposed new school Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The Maritime and premises regulations. The analysis of responses will Coastguard Agency’s (MCA) recent contract to operate consider the evidence in the studies. The largest one emergency towing vessels (ETVs) in Scotland ran from cited, which covered 928 schools, was carried out in 15 January 2012 to 17 March 2012, and was within the 2003. terms agreed by Government in October 2011. We believe that the requirements of the proposed The Secretary of State for Scotland explained that regulation on school toilet and washing facilities will the contract would come to an end on 17 March at the be clearer than now. Its main effects should therefore ETV Working Group meeting. This was held on 1 March be to make it easier for schools to assess how satisfactory and attended by representatives of Highland, Shetland, their facilities are, and then to ensure that they do Western Isles and Orkney councils, as well as the meet the new standards. Director of Marine Scotland, KIMO, the Northern Lighthouse Board and other stakeholders. Asked by Baroness Tonge Asked by Lord MacKenzie of Culkein To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of any link between poor school To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether tugs toilets and washing facilities and continence problems were available in the vicinity of the Minch when the and infection among children. [HL16735] MV “Flinterspirit” ran aground on the island of WA 373 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 374

Flodday Mor on 19 March; and, if none was available, UK Financial Year Discretionary Spend Dates what was the estimated steaming time for the nearest available to arrive. [HL16720] 2004-05 £2,002,941.11 £2m on 19 Apr 2004, and £2941.11 on 20 Jul 2004 Lord Wallace of Saltaire: There was no tug available 2005-06 £2,000,898 Total amount in Jan in the Minch when the MV “Flinterspirit” ran aground. 2006 The nearest tug was the “Anglian Sovereign”, 15 hours 2006-07 £1,040,000 £1m in Oct 2006, steaming away. The MV “Flinterspirit” did not require and £40k in Dec the help of a tug. She was able to refloat and make her 2006 own way to Stornoway for inspection. 2007-08 £5,000,000 £2m in Apr 2007, and £3m Mar 2008 Asked by Lord MacKenzie of Culkein 2008-09 £7,000,000 £3m in March 2008, £3m in Jan 2009, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what £lm in March 2009 arrangements they will put in place to protect mariners 2009-10 £2,459,444 £760,000 in Aug 09, and the coastal environment in the north-west of £1,000,556 in Feb Scotland in the event of vessels running aground or 10, £699,444 in March 2010 suffering power outages or other on-board emergencies 2010-11 £3,400,000 £400,000 in Jan which may require a rescue vessel. [HL16721] 2010, £1m in Feb 2011, £2m in March Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The Maritime and 2011 Coastguard Agency is pursuing a more active monitoring Total: £27,503,283.11 of shipping using the automatic identification system 2011-12 £600,000 £600,000 in March (AIS), earlier contact with ships, their owners, insurers 2012 and salvors to initiate action and a revised version of Total to date £28,103,283.11 the Coastguard Agreement for Salvage and Towage, The main purpose of these payments was to support which will provide for the prompt hire of available the investigation and prosecution of Charles Taylor tugs on pre-agreed terms. (former President of Liberia) and the eight individuals who bore the greatest responsibility for serious violations Sierra Leone of international humanitarian law and Sierra Leonean law committed during the civil war in Sierra Leone. Question Charles Taylor is the first former head of state to be Asked by Lord Marlesford brought to trial on charges of war crimes for actions he took while in office. Payments and costs in 2007-08 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they and 2008-09 were greater to facilitate the transfer of will provide a breakdown, by date and purpose of Charles Taylor to The Hague and the commencement payment, of the £27.6 million given to the Special of his trial. Court of Sierra Leone since 2002; what arrangements The Government’s most recent contributions helped are in place to audit the proper use of this money; the Special Court to complete the trial of Charles and whether they plan to make any further payments. Taylor. The additional payment of £600,000 in March [HL16758] 2012, taking the total contribution to date to £28,103,283.11, covered a shortfall in funding for trial The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth and contempt proceedings. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Special Court The Special Court’s Management Committee, on for Sierra Leone was established in 2002 by an agreement which the UK is represented, provides a rolling audit between the United Nations and the Government of on the court’s activities and the overall budget. An Sierra Leone. It is mandated to try those who bear independent external auditor also carries out an audit the greatest responsibility for serious violations of on an annual basis. international humanitarian law and Sierra Leonean The Government look forward to a verdict in the law committed in the territory of Sierra Leone since Charles Taylor trial on 26 April. Once any appeals are 30 November 1996. It is the first international criminal completed, only minimal residual functions will be tribunal funded entirely from voluntary contributions required to ensure that key functions (such as witness from Governments. The total UK Government protection and sentence enforcement) are maintained contribution to the Special Court for Sierra Leone effectively. The Government will then consider whether from 2002 until the end of the financial year 2010-11 any further contributions are necessary. was £27,503,283.11, which is approximately 20% of the court’s overall costs. The table below shows the South Sudan payments in as much detail as possible. Payments were Questions made in US dollars and the totals were therefore subject to different conversion rates. Asked by The Earl of Sandwich To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they UK Financial Year Discretionary Spend Dates will increase their support of non-governmental 2002-03 £2,600,000 organisations in South Sudan to offset any shortfalls 2003-04 £2,000,000 in state provision of education and health and to guarantee continued services. [HL16789] WA 375 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 376

Baroness Northover: Her Majesty’s Government will on both Governments to cease aggressive acts, to stop continue to support service delivery by non-governmental all support to armed groups in each other’s territory, organisations in South Sudan in the education and and to abide by their Memorandum of Understanding health sectors. The design of new programmes will on Non-Aggression and Co-operation signed on need to take in to account possible shortfalls in government 10 February. provision, but no final decisions have been taken by the Department for International Development to increase funding and we expect the Government of Taxation South Sudan to act in a responsible manner in relation Question to safeguarding essential services. Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Asked by The Earl of Sandwich To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many will introduce dynamic modelling to measure the skilled returnees to South Sudan from Sudan they impact of tax changes announced in the Budget; have assisted with small start-up grants in the past and, if so, when. [HL16796] 12 months, and through what channels. [HL16790] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Baroness Northover: The UK Government are not Sassoon): The Chancellor has asked the Treasury to assisting skilled South Sudanese returning from Sudan undertake research on the broader economy effects of with small start-up grants. changes to taxation. This will not affect the role of the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) or the calculation of the cost or yield of new Budget policy decisions Sudan and South Sudan with a direct effect on public sector net borrowing, Questions presented in table 2.1 of the Budget 2012 document. As set out in the Budget 2012 Policy Costings document, Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool in the summer the Government and OBR intend to jointly publish a briefing paper explaining in more To ask Her Majesty’s Government what reports detail the approach to policy costings and the process they have received regarding clashes in Sudan on for scrutiny and certification. 26 March in the disputed areas of Jau and Pan Akuach, in Unity State and South Kordofan. [HL16738] Transport: Eyesight Tests Questions The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are aware of Asked by Lord Bradshaw reports of aerial bombardments in Jau and Pan Akuach. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to However, we have seen no independent verification of the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 21 March these claims at this stage. (WA 180-1), how many collisions between (1) heavy We urge the Governments of Sudan and South goods vehicles, (2) buses and coaches, and (3) other Sudan to abide by their Memorandum of Understanding vehicles, and (a) pedestrians, and (b) cyclists, involve on Non-Aggression and Co-operation signed on drivers with defective vision. [HL16723] 10 February, and to continue to work with the African Union High-Level Implementation Panel to resolve their differences. Lord De Mauley: The number of reported personal injury road accidents in Great Britain between (1) heavy Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool goods vehicles, (2) buses and coaches, and (3) other vehicles, and (a) pedestrians, and (b) cyclists, involving To ask Her Majesty’s Government what reports drivers with uncorrected or defective eyesight as a they have received regarding attacks by Sudanese contributory factor is given in the table: forces in the area of Teshwin inside South Sudan; and what representations they have made to the Number of accidents by vehicle type Government of Sudan about violations of South (a) Sudan’s sovereignty. [HL16739] Pedestrian, injured by (b) Pedal Vehicle type vehicle cycle Lord Howell of Guildford: We are concerned by reports of fighting between Sudan and South Sudan. 2008 HGV 0 0 There are conflicting reports about how this outbreak Bus or Coach 0 0 of violence started, with each country blaming the Other vehicle 34 1 other for the initial attack. We have seen no independent 2009 HGV 0 0 verification of the events, although there is evidence Bus or Coach 0 0 that both countries have engaged in military activities Other vehicle 23 3 in the territory of the other. We are urging all parties 2010 HGV 0 0 to take immediate steps to defuse the situation, halt Bus or Coach 0 0 the build-up of forces, and immediately implement border monitoring arrangements. We have also called Other vehicle 24 4 WA 377 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 378

The contributory factors reflect the reporting officer’s Transport: Semi-trailers opinion at the time of reporting and are not necessarily the result of extensive investigation. Moreover it is Question recognised that subsequent inquires could lead to the Asked by Lord Bradshaw reporting officer changing his opinion. It is important to note that where some factors may have contributed To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the to a cause of an accident, it may be difficult for a semi-trailers permitted in the trial that started in police officer attending the scene after the accident has January 2012, (1) have a larger blind spot than occurred to identify these factors. conventional heavy goods vehicles; (2) pose any increased risk to cyclists compared to conventional Asked by Lord Bradshaw heavy goods vehicles; (3) are required to fit motion To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to sensors or cameras to increase safety in blind spots; the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 21 March and (4) have any special conditions as regards accessing (WA 179-80), whether they have plans to increase narrow roads or city centres. [HL16725] the frequency of eyesight testing for bus and lorry drivers. [HL16724] Lord De Mauley: The research undertaken by the Transport Research Laboratory concluded that the field of view from the cab of the HGV is not expected Lord De Mauley: There are no plans to increase the to be affected by changes to the length of semi-trailers. frequency of formal eyesight testing for those who While the research identified a potential increase in drive buses or lorries. Drivers of all motor vehicles risk of up to 9 per cent compared to conventional have a legal responsibility to ensure that they are able heavy goods vehicles, the report made clear that the to meet the appropriate vision standards at all times risk analyses had been deliberately conservative and when driving. were likely to produce an over-estimate. The research also indicated that, for many trailer configurations, Asked by Lord Bradshaw the overall length-relevant accident involvement rates To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their (accidents per billion vehicle kilometres) would actually estimate of the percentage of the United Kingdom decrease. Overall it was considered likely that the population whose eyesight meets the visual standards effects of the measures under consideration would be set for driving at age 18 without glasses or corrective sufficiently small to make it extremely difficult, if not lenses who will not meet those standards at age 45 impossible, to identify them in a reliable post-hoc analysis after implementation or to have any measurable without glasses or corrective lenses. [HL16726] effect on the overall long-term downward trend in HGV accident involvement rates. The trial does not require the fitting of motion The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department sensors or cameras as it wishes to compare the of Health (Earl Howe): No such estimate has been performance of these lorries directly with that of made. conventional heavy goods vehicles, which are not required Some adults may require glasses or contact lenses to be so fitted. However, if trial participants choose to to continue to meet the visual standards set for driving incorporate these elements in the trailers they operate, by the Driving and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA). the trial will identify these and monitor their impacts. There is a legal obligation, under Section 94(1) of There are no special conditions regarding access. the Road Traffic Act 1988, on the applicant/licence These vehicles are within the maximum dimensions holder to notify, at any time, the DVLA of any medical permitted for other heavy goods vehicles, and comply condition which may affect their fitness to drive. with the turning circle requirements of the construction Information in respect of Wales, Scotland and and use regulations. Northern Ireland is a matter for the devolved Administrations. Turkey Asked by Lord Bradshaw Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Asked by Lord Hylton estimate of the percentage of (1) car, (2) heavy goods vehicle, and (3) bus and coach drivers, who To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether United drive without using glasses or corrective lenses whose Kingdom or European Union diplomats will be eyesight does not meet the standards required for present at the indictment hearing before the 15th driving without such lenses. [HL16727] Istanbul High Criminal Court (Turkey) in the cases of R Zarakolu and Professor B Ersanli, and any subsequent proceedings. [HL16695] Lord Wallace of Saltaire: It is not possible to estimate the percentage of those who drive without their The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth appropriate vision correction. Drivers of all motor Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are not planning vehicles have a legal responsibility to ensure that they on sending a representative to the indictment hearing are able to meet the appropriate vision standards at all before the 15th Istanbul High Criminal Court in the times when driving. cases of Ragip Zarakolou and Professor Busra Ersanli. WA 379 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 380

We understand that both a representative of the over issues surrounding freedom of expression in Turkey, Delegation for the European Union to Turkey and the including the culture of excessive pre-trial detention. European Parliament will be present at the indictment We welcome the recent announcement of judicial reforms hearing. addressing some of the problems. We urge Turkey to We continue to share the concerns expressed by the continue to tackle these urgent issues. Council of Europe, Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe and the European Commission over issues surrounding freedom of expression in Turkey, Union Learning Fund including the culture of excessive pre-trial detentions. Question We welcome the recent announcement of judicial reform, Asked by Lord Laird addressing some of the issues and encourage Turkey to take advantage of the opportunities created by the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to process of constitutional reform to make broader the Written Answer by Baroness Wilcox on 14 March human rights reforms. (WA 82), whether the Union Learning Fund (ULF) has been or will be subject to any reduction in its Asked by Lord Patten funding, or its funding growth; why they agreed To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment that a new key priority should be reaching out to they have made of reports that Kurds in Turkey are non-unionised workplaces; and whether such activity being detained without trial and subject to torture is within the remit of the ULF. [HL16654] or sexual harassment. [HL16752] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Due to pressures on departmental budgets, the Unionlearn Lord Howell of Guildford: We continue to monitor budget for 2012-13 has been reduced by 6% (£1.29 million). the ongoing pre-trial detention of journalists, politicians, Reaching out to non-unionised workplaces is within officials and others and share the concerns of our the remit of the ULF. Through the work of Union European Union (EU) partners over the culture of Learn, opportunities for workers in non-unionised excessive pre-trial detention. We welcome recent steps workplaces have been identified to access learning via taken by the Turkish Ministry of Justice to address learning agreements with their employers. This work some of the issues and call for further urgent progress. has focused on unions opening their facilities such as The UK considers torture and sexual harassment learning centres to individuals either in the community to be abhorrent violations of human rights and human or working in the supply chain for a unionised company. dignity, and consistently and unreservedly condemns The 2011-12 Union Learn grant letter sets out a their practice. We welcome Turkey’s ratification of the formal expectation for Union Learn to extend its Optional Protocol to the Convention Against Torture approach into non unionised workplaces. This includes: in September 2011 and the positive trend recently extending the benefits of union learning so that identified in the recent annual EU progress report. We more employees and employers understand and look forward to further progress. have an opportunity to engage in learning; We are aware of recent media reports of child extending support to union members working in prisoners being subjected to sexual harassment. We non unionised workplaces to develop a “learning understand the Turkish Ministry of Justice has initiated champion” role in consultation with their criminal proceedings against six personnel. We call on employers; Turkey to continue to take these allegations seriously. promoting learning champions to others in contact Asked by Lord Patten with Union Learn (through learning centres); and using informal learning in non-unionised workplaces To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to to promote formal learning. the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford The Union Learn prospectus, which was published on 19 March (WA 149), whether they now intend to on 8 September 2011, identifies engagement in non make representations to Turkey about the arrests of unionised workplaces as a priority for Union Learn- Mr Ahmet Sik and Mr Nedim Sener. [HL16753] funded projects.

Vatican Lord Howell of Guildford: We do not intend to Question make specific representations to the Government of Turkey about the arrests of Mr Ahmet Sik and Mr Nedim Asked by Lord Patten Sener. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their We welcome the recent release of four high-profile assessment of the relations between the United prisoners, including Ahmet Sik and Nedim Sener, Kingdom and the Vatican. [HL16802] following 375 days on remand for charges of belonging to the Ergenekon organisation. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth We continue to share the concerns expressed by the Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): As I saw when I Council of Europe, Organisation for Security and visited the Vatican in February, as part of the Ministerial Co-operation in Europe and the European Commission delegation led by the Minister without Portfolio at the WA 381 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 382

Cabinet Office, my right honourable friend Baroness Students are able to switch into the family route to Warsi, the United Kingdom’s relations with the Holy settlement with an application for leave as a partner. See are strong and substantive. The visit in February They will normally be eligible to settle after a period signified a further step forward in our dialogue and of two years of further leave to remain as a spouse, co-operation across a broad range of international civil partner, unmarried or same sex partner. issues, including: human rights; the inter-faith dialogue; The points-based system allows people to enter and the situation in the Middle East; Africa (including remain in the UK. There are five tiers including tier 1 Somalia); arms proliferation; climate change; international for high net worth migrants and tier 2 for skilled development; as well as cultural and bilateral affairs. workers. Students can switch into the tier 1 investor Given that the Holy See is one of the world’s oldest category with a minimum investment in a UK business organisations, at the centre of a truly global network, of £1 million or the tier 2 skilled worker category we believe that it is important to maintain and develop provided that the post cannot be filled by a British or a substantive diplomatic dialogue with the Vatican, EEA national. Those who qualify for leave to remain with the aim of addressing the challenges I have alluded in these work routes will normally be eligible to apply to above. As we have seen with Pope Benedict XVI’s for settlement after five years, or earlier for tier 1 recent visit to Mexico and Cuba, the Holy See is an categories if they meet the following criteria: important actor in international affairs. three years for tier 1 entrepreneurs who create at least 10 new jobs for a period of 12 months with 2012 marks thirty years of full diplomatic relations new business income of at least £5 million; and between the UK and the Holy See, which were elevated three years for tier 1 investors if their investment is to Ambassadorial level shortly before the pastoral at least £5 million or two years if their investment visit of Pope John Paul II to the United Kingdom in is at least £10 million in a UK business. 1982. Since then of course, in September 2010, we have welcomed Pope Benedict XVI on an historic Time spent as a student does not count as qualifying official visit to Britain—a further sign of the developing leave in either family or work routes. Leave spent as a relationship between this country and the Holy See. student can contribute towards an application for settlement on the basis of long residence under part 7 Clearly, as in any diplomatic relationship, there are paragraph 276A of the Immigration Rules. areas on which our views will differ, but these differences Those who gain indefinite leave to remain may then should not overshadow the many other areas on which go on to meet the residence requirements for we do agree and on which we should—and do—work naturalisation. Schedule 1 to the British Nationality together to tackle a wide range global challenges. Act 1981 states that a person should have resided legally in the UK for a qualifying period of three or five years and be free from immigration time control at the point of application. Leave as a student can Visas therefore contribute to the required residence period Question for the purposes of naturalisation provided that they settle. Asked by Lord Laird An amendment to primary legislation would be To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to required to prevent those who have spent time on the Written Answer by Lord Henley on 21 March student visas from satisfying the residence requirements (WA 165), in what circumstances indefinite leave to for naturalisation. The Home Office has no plans to remain in the United Kingdom is granted to these amend the requirements for naturalisation at the current who entered the United Kingdom on a student time. visa; under what circumstances students meet the rules relating to long residence entitling them to naturalisation; and whether they have powers to change the law so that time spent on a student visa Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill can no longer potentially count towards the residence Question requirements for naturalisation. [HL16746] Asked by Lord Wigley To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Barnett The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): consequential payments would be made to the National The student route (tier 4) of the points-based system is Assembly for Wales arising from payments made a temporary one and not a route to settlement (indefinite under the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) leave to remain). This will be further emphasised from Bill. [HL16762] April 2012 when a maximum time limit of five years for bachelors and masters level is added to the existing three years below degree level study; and the tier 1 post study route is closed. The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness): This Bill applies only to water companies Those granted leave to enter as students are expected wholly or mainly in England. Any additional new to leave the UK on completion of their studies or on funding allocated to departmental budgets in devolved the expiry of leave to enter if they are not able to meet areas will result in consequential increases in the Welsh the requirements for an extension of stay. block grant in the normal way. WA 383 Written Answers[23 APRIL 2012] Written Answers WA 384

Water Management: Purification Units Baroness Northover: The Department for International Development does not have responsibility for managing Questions the use of water purification units for emergencies at Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno home or abroad. It is not possible to calculate centrally the number of such units available to Her Majesty’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Government. UK water companies do not routinely water purification units they have available for stock water purification units. Prefabricated water emergencies at home or abroad. [HL16638] purification units can be purchased from manufacturers To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the at short notice if required. Information about the type remarks by Baroness Stowell of Beeston on 19 March of (point-of-use) water purification units used for (Official Report, col. 736), what happened to the emergencies abroad (following flooding, earthquake et 14,000 water purification units that were stored by cetera) would be held by non-governmental organisations the Ministry of Defence. [HL16640] rather than governmental agencies.

Monday 23 April 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Abu Qatada ...... 141 Mali ...... 153

Big Society Capital ...... 142 National Measurement Office...... 154

Chemical Weapons Convention ...... 143 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012...... 155 Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission...... 143 Prosecutions: Public Interest in Media Cases...... 159 China: Neil Heywood ...... 144 Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre...... 159 Correction to Parliamentary Question...... 145 Schools: Behaviour ...... 160 Dogs: Irresponsible Ownership...... 146 Scottish Partnerships: Criminal Liability ...... 160 EU: Child Abduction...... 148 Terrorism: Victims ...... 161 EU: Foreign Affairs Council and General Affairs Council ...... 149 Tobacco: Standardised Packaging...... 162 European Court of Human Rights ...... 151 Treasury: Improving Spending Control...... 163 Export Control ...... 152 Treasury: Infrastructure Cost Review...... 164 Highways Agency and Network Rail: Fire Risk Audit Reports ...... 153 UK Convergence Programme ...... 164

Monday 23 April 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan...... 287 Banking: Coutts...... 298 African States: Maritime Safety and Security ...... 287 Banks: Credit and Debit Cards...... 299 Agriculture: Eggs...... 288 Banks: London Interbank Offered Rate...... 299 Agriculture: Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathy . 288 BBC: World Service Trust...... 299 Air Ambulance Service ...... 290 Belarus...... 300 Air Quality...... 290 Benefits...... 302 Alcohol...... 291 Broadcasting: Television Licences...... 302 Armed Forces: Afghanistan ...... 292 Burma...... 303 Armed Forces: Aircraft...... 292 Children: Conflict Situations ...... 304 Armed Forces: Global Combat Ships ...... 293 Children: Parenting...... 304 Arts and Media Honours Committee ...... 293 Children: Safeguarding Children ...... 305 Asma Al-Assad...... 294 China...... 306 Association of Chief Police Officers ...... 294 Civil Service: Staff...... 306

Asylum Seekers...... 294 Claims Management Companies ...... 307 Asylum Seekers: Children ...... 295 Communications: Fibre Optic Cable...... 307 Aviation: London Airports ...... 296 Community Organisers...... 308 Bahrain...... 297 Creative Industries...... 311

Banking: Barclays Bank...... 298 Crown Prosecution Service ...... 313 Col. No. Col. No. Cuba...... 313 Israel and Palestine ...... 351 Cyclists: Safety...... 314 Israel and Palestine: West Bank ...... 353 Disabled People: Personal Independence Payment...... 314 Libya ...... 355 Discretionary Social Fund ...... 315 Marine Environment: Scotland...... 356 Education: Home Schooling ...... 316 Nanotechnology and Pictoechnology ...... 356 Egypt ...... 317 National Offender Manager Service: Forms ...... 357 Energy: Carbon Emissions...... 317 NHS: Private Finance Initiative Schemes...... 357 Energy: Wind Generation ...... 318 Nigeria...... 357 Environment: Sustainable Development ...... 319 Non-governmental Organisations ...... 358 EU: Data Protection...... 319 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012: Olympic Truce..... 358 EU-Israel Association Agreement...... 319 Overseas Conflict: UK Involvement ...... 361 European Court of Human Rights ...... 320 Palestine...... 361 Finance: Initial Public Offering Listings ...... 321 Pensions...... 362 Firearms: Licensing ...... 322 Planning ...... 363 Food: Sugar ...... 322 Police: South Wales...... 364 Gaza ...... 322 Powers of Entry ...... 364 Goldman Sachs...... 323 Qatar ...... 367 Government Departments: Bonuses ...... 323 Railways: Privatisation...... 368 Government Departments: Opinion Polls...... 324 Roads: Litter...... 369 Government Departments: Staff...... 328 Roads: Pedestrians...... 369 Gulf of Guinea...... 329 Schools: Building Schools for the Future...... 370 Health: Elderly People ...... 329 Schools: Special Educational Needs...... 370 Health: Healthcare Assistants...... 342 Schools: Toilets and Washing Facilities...... 371 Shipping: Towing Vessels ...... 372 Health: Osteopathy...... 344 Sierra Leone ...... 373 Health: Tuberculosis ...... 344 South Sudan ...... 374 Higher Education: Funding ...... 344 Sudan and South Sudan ...... 375 Higher Education: Student Loans...... 345 Taxation...... 376 HMS “Caroline”...... 347 Transport: Eyesight Tests...... 376 Housing ...... 347 Transport: Semi-trailers ...... 378 Immigration...... 347 Turkey...... 378 Insurance ...... 348 Union Learning Fund...... 380 Insurance: Travel...... 348 Vatican...... 380 Internet: Broadband ...... 349 Visas ...... 381 Iran...... 350 Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill...... 382 Israel...... 350 Water Management: Purification Units ...... 383 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL16424]...... 288 [HL16467]...... 323

[HL16427]...... 345 [HL16493]...... 308

[HL16448]...... 293 [HL16502]...... 323

[HL16463]...... 323 [HL16504]...... 308 Col. No. Col. No. [HL16531]...... 324 [HL16664]...... 351 [HL16532]...... 328 [HL16665]...... 353 [HL16540]...... 357 [HL16666]...... 353 [HL16546]...... 294 [HL16668]...... 348 [HL16564]...... 309 [HL16669]...... 349 [HL16565]...... 309 [HL16670]...... 299 [HL16566]...... 309 [HL16674]...... 351 [HL16572]...... 315 [HL16675]...... 352 [HL16573]...... 315 [HL16676]...... 353 [HL16578]...... 347 [HL16679]...... 364 [HL16579]...... 293 [HL16680]...... 364 [HL16582]...... 299 [HL16681]...... 361 [HL16584]...... 362 [HL16682]...... 354 [HL16593]...... 316 [HL16683]...... 292 [HL16595]...... 295 [HL16684]...... 352 [HL16596]...... 296 [HL16685]...... 350 [HL16606]...... 357 [HL16686]...... 354 [HL16607]...... 303 [HL16688]...... 358 [HL16608]...... 303 [HL16689]...... 319 [HL16610]...... 311 [HL16690]...... 320 [HL16612]...... 344 [HL16691]...... 320 [HL16613]...... 346 [HL16692]...... 320 [HL16615]...... 370 [HL16693]...... 321 [HL16616]...... 370 [HL16695]...... 378 [HL16620]...... 307 [HL16696]...... 290 [HL16621]...... 344 [HL16697]...... 292 [HL16632]...... 364 [HL16698]...... 287 [HL16638]...... 383 [HL16700]...... 322 [HL16640]...... 383 [HL16701]...... 322 [HL16642]...... 305 [HL16702]...... 306 [HL16643]...... 304 [HL16709]...... 322 [HL16644]...... 318 [HL16710]...... 354 [HL16647]...... 310 [HL16711]...... 304 [HL16650]...... 311 [HL16712]...... 304 [HL16651]...... 311 [HL16713]...... 315 [HL16652]...... 302 [HL16714]...... 302 [HL16654]...... 380 [HL16715]...... 316 [HL16656]...... 363 [HL16717]...... 291 [HL16657]...... 328 [HL16718]...... 356 [HL16658]...... 319 [HL16719]...... 372 [HL16660]...... 351 [HL16720]...... 373 [HL16663]...... 317 [HL16721]...... 373 Col. No. Col. No. [HL16723]...... 376 [HL16765]...... 369 [HL16724]...... 377 [HL16766]...... 361 [HL16725]...... 378 [HL16767]...... 294 [HL16726]...... 377 [HL16768]...... 358 [HL16727]...... 377 [HL16770]...... 359 [HL16728]...... 314 [HL16771]...... 360 [HL16729]...... 342 [HL16772]...... 360 [HL16730]...... 342 [HL16773]...... 360 [HL16731]...... 343 [HL16774]...... 368 [HL16732]...... 343 [HL16775]...... 290 [HL16733]...... 343 [HL16776]...... 291 [HL16734]...... 371 [HL16777]...... 291 [HL16735]...... 371 [HL16778]...... 291 [HL16736]...... 372 [HL16781]...... 329 [HL16737]...... 306 [HL16782]...... 332 [HL16738]...... 375 [HL16783]...... 333 [HL16739]...... 375 [HL16784]...... 336 [HL16740]...... 322 [HL16785]...... 338 [HL16741]...... 344 [HL16786]...... 340 [HL16742]...... 296 [HL16788]...... 349 [HL16743]...... 294 [HL16789]...... 374 [HL16744]...... 288 [HL16790]...... 375 [HL16746]...... 381 [HL16791]...... 298 [HL16747]...... 355 [HL16792]...... 321 [HL16748]...... 297 [HL16794]...... 307 [HL16749]...... 300 [HL16795]...... 299 [HL16750]...... 301 [HL16796]...... 376 [HL16751]...... 301 [HL16797]...... 298 [HL16798]...... 356 [HL16752]...... 379 [HL16799]...... 347 [HL16753]...... 379 [HL16800]...... 363 [HL16755]...... 350 [HL16801]...... 364 [HL16756]...... 313 [HL16802]...... 380 [HL16757]...... 294 [HL16803]...... 313 [HL16758]...... 373 [HL16804]...... 319 [HL16759]...... 369 [HL16805]...... 292 [HL16760]...... 329 [HL16806]...... 348 [HL16761]...... 287 [HL16807]...... 346 [HL16762]...... 382 [HL16808]...... 346 [HL16763]...... 357 [HL16809]...... 347 [HL16764]...... 367 [HL16810]...... 317 Volume 736 Monday No. 291 23 April 2012

CONTENTS

Monday 23 April 2012 Deaths of Members...... 1541 Questions Finance: Equity Markets ...... 1541 Social Tourism...... 1543 Immigration: Eurostar ...... 1545 Workers’ Memorial Day...... 1548 House of Lords Reform Statement ...... 1550 Business of the House Motion on Standing Orders...... 1554 Canterbury City Council Bill Leeds City Council Bill Nottingham City Council Bill ...... 1554 Reading Borough Council Bill Motions to Resolve...... 1555 City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL] City of Westminster Bill [HL] Transport for London Bill [HL] Motions to Resolve...... 1555 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Commons Reasons and Amendments ...... 1556 Grand Committee Health: Pancreatic Cancer...... GC 241 Housing: Flats...... GC 258 Armed Forces: Personnel Questions for Short Debate ...... GC 274 Written Statements...... WS 141 Written Answers...... WA 287