EAST AFRICAN COMMUNITY ______

Official Report of the Proceedings of the East African Legislative Assembly

25TH SITTING – FIRST ASSEMBLY: THIRD MEETING - SECOND SESSION

Tuesday, 20 May 2003

The East African Legislative Assembly met at 9.00 a.m. at the Chamber of the Assembly, Ngorongoro Wing, Sixth Floor, AICC Complex, Arusha

PRAYERS

[The Speaker, Hon. Abdulrahman Kinana in the Chair]

The Assembly was called to Order.

NOTICE OF MOTION TAKING COGNISANCE of the provisions of Article 59(1) The Chairperson Committee on of the Treaty; Legal, Rules and Privileges (Mr Jared Kangwana (Kenya): Mr PURSUANT to the Provisions Speaker, sir, I beg to move that on the of Rule 64 (5) & (9) of the allotted date, I intend to move a Rules of the House; Motion for a Resolution of this House to grant me leave, as the Chairperson DO NOW RESOLVE to grant of the Standing Committee on Legal, leave to the Chairperson, Rules and Privileges, to introduce a Standing Committee on Legal, Private Members’ Bill entitled the Rules and Privileges to Laws of the Community introduce a Private Member’s (Interpretation) Bill, 2003. Bill entitled “The Acts of the East African Legislative MOTION Assembly, Bill, 2003”.

The Chairperson Committee on Mr Speaker, sir, let me give the Legal, Rules and Privileges Mr reasons why the Standing Committee Jared Kangwana (Kenya): Mr on Legal, Rules and Privileges deemed Speaker, sir, I beg to move the it necessary to come up with this Bill. following Motion: My Committee drafted this Bill and it THAT this Assembly, was our intention to seek leave of the House to bring it to the House as a Private Members’ Bill. However, the

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Counsel to the Community informed and we are about to pass the East us at that time that the best way out African Legislative Assembly Powers was to send the draft Bill to the and Privileges Bill. So, by bringing Council of Ministers to review and this Bill into the House, we are now bring it to the House as the Treaty establishing how other Bills will enjoins them. It has been some time become law. That is the reason why since that happened, and to date, we the Committee felt that we should seek have neither heard from the Counsel to leave of the House in order to bring the Community nor the Council of this Bill. If this Bill is passed into law, Ministers on what happened to that then a procedure will have been draft Bill. established on how a Bill becomes law.

Mr Speaker, sir, the House will recall Mr Speaker, sir, I implore this House that when we were debating the Bill on to support the Motion and grant us the Powers and Privileges of this leave to lay the draft Bill before the House, it was decided that the House so that it can be debated and Attorneys General of the three East passed. I did attach to the Motion African Countries would be consulted before the House a copy of the Bill, but with regard to the Bill. So far, we have I do not think it has been circulated. heard from the Attorney General of But it will be done in due course. Uganda, but we have not heard from the Attorneys General of the Republic With those few remarks, I beg to of Kenya and Tanzania. But in the move. response of the Attorney General of the Republic of Uganda, he pointed out Mr Mabere Marando (Tanzania): the necessity and urgency of enacting Mr Speaker, sir, the Act that is being the East African Legislative Assembly proposed by the Chairperson of the law so that the procedure is set out Standing Committee on Legal, Rules clearly on how a Bill becomes law. and Privileges is very important. It is the Act that establishes the procedure At the moment, apart from the for enactment of the Acts of this framework that has been laid out in the House. It is the Act that proposes the Treaty that the principle role of the various steps that are to be taken by Assembly is to legislate, and the fact this House in the process of the passing that a Bill goes through three stages of the various Bills into proper and and then thereafter it is sent to the final legislation. It establishes and Heads of State for assent by the incorporates forms that the Hon. Speaker, there are no detailed Speaker will use in forwarding these guidelines on how that will be done. various statutes to the Summit for This Bill will seek to establish those assent and the final process of procedures so that there is no question enactment. It is, therefore, opportune at all as to what should happen before that the Act comes into place about this a Bill becomes law. If the procedure time. followed is questioned in any court of law, it can be pointed out clearly that This Act ought to have been in place the procedures that were followed were earlier than today. This is one of the in accordance with the law. pieces of legislation which we had expected the Council of Ministers to Mr Speaker, sir, I know that we have come up with, but the Standing passed the Community Emblems Bill Committee on Legal, Rules and

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Privileges has again, with humility, passing of this Bill will have to be taken the initiative to seek leave of the done in another Session. This also goes House to bring a Private Members’ to show that the Council of Ministers Bill, so that we get the proper process should look seriously at the Rules of of passing legislation into law. It is the House. When we request that we therefore our humble prayer that our sit for 120 days, it is because we know honourable colleagues will support the what work we have! Motion. With those remarks, I beg to support Mr Daniel Ogalo (Uganda): Mr the Motion. Speaker, sir, I rise to support the Motion, but I would like to point out Mr Med Kaggwa (Uganda): Mr two things. The Committees of this Speaker, sir, I also rise to support this House should seek technical advice Motion. I have two issues to raise on when bringing Private Members’ Bills. the matter. I implore the Chair to Drafting of Bills has apparently been impress it on the Council of Ministers taken over by this draftsman to assist that it is their responsibility to bring it. Bills to this House. But in as far as the situation on the ground is concerned, Mr Speaker, sir, the House Business they have not been able to bring any Committee, on behalf of this House, Bill at all. But at the same time, they did request that the Assembly employs have not been able to appreciate the a draftsman. That was included in the efforts of this House. Budget that was forwarded to the Council of Ministers. In its wisdom, I say that because Hon. Ogalo the Council of Ministers is of the view mentioned that the House Business that we do not need this technical Committee had rightly advised that a advice, and stuck out that request. draftsperson be recruited but the Council of Ministers turned down that It is important that the Council of request without appreciating the Ministers recognises that the requests purpose as to why this Assembly is in we make in the Budget are well place. That is very sad. intentioned, and that they are intended to make this Assembly work. When we Mr Speaker, sir, some of us have said have a draftsman, we only need to time and again that if the powers that work and make sure that we push the be were not prepared to have the integration process forward. It should organs in place, they should not have be noted that as we support the allowed for their creation. They should Committee on Legal, Rules and not have allowed for their creation and Privileges to introduce Private starve them of the tools to enable them Members’ Bills, technical advice is do their work. always needed to support their work. The other issue that I want to raise in Mr Speaker, sir, this Bill should have this Motion regards the Bill that we been the first one in this House but have already passed in this House. I since there is no money to enable us to am wondering whether the office of transact our business, this Bill will not the Speaker is very clear as to where be enacted during this Session. We that Bill is right now. I say this because have a limit of 60 days. So, after leave the Treaty states that if a Bill is not of this House has been granted, the assented to within three months, it

3 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates lapses. I know that we passed the The Counsel to the Community (Mr Community Emblems Bill, and if I am Wilbert Kaahwa) (Ex-Officio): Mr. not mistaken, the three months are Speaker, sir, we appreciate the about to elapse. So, I would like to be sentiments expressed about the need of given assurance by the Speaker that a draftsman. I would like to inform the there is a method - and I am sure this House that I am not as stranded as it proposed Bill will strengthen that – appears. I have a Legal Officer who is that will enable his office to ensure that to all intents and purposes a Deputy the Bills we pass here reach the Counsel to the Community. I am trying respective Heads of State for their to elucidate that the situation is not as attention. If that is not done, we shall bad as it appears. It is only bad in the be passing Bills here and they will be sense that she, like me, is not a lapsing and all our efforts will have qualified draftsperson. gone to waste. Mr Yonasani Kanyomozi (Uganda): With those remarks, I beg to support Mr Speaker, sir, you have heard it from the Motion. the horse’s mouth. While I appreciate the intervention of the Counsel to the Mr Yonasani Kanyomozi (Uganda): Community, it is true that the Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, sir, department is not well staffed to do the for giving me the opportunity to work we expect it to do. So, that goes support this Motion. This Bill should to tell us that there is serious need for a have come to this House a long time draftsperson. ago to guide our legislative process. By the time we come back in August Mr Speaker, sir, given the procedure this year, that should be one of the followed in Parliaments, is it not going items included in the Budget, and we to be a waste of time? In proceed to advertise for that job and Commonwealth Parliaments, when fill the post. In the meantime, I suggest Bills are debated and left pending and that efforts should be made to borrow the session ends, those Bills have got from Partner States some people who to be started afresh when the could come and assist the Counsel to Assemblies resume. I hope that the Community and the Assembly to practice will be suspended in respect of draft those Bills. this Bill. I would like to get that assurance so that we do not waste our We are made to understand that the valuable time by sitting here, only to Attorney General of Uganda has been come back during the next session and helpful in this matter. During our last repeat ourselves about the same things. sitting, we had a draftsman from Uganda who assisted us a great deal. I Mr. Speaker, sir, I do not know how hope we will also approach the we are going to manage - and I am Attorneys General of Kenya and echoing the feelings – the drafting of Tanzania to do the same – Bills. Most of the Committees of the (Interjection). House have proposed several Bills, which need to be presented to the Mr Kaahwa: Mr. Speaker, sir, with House. We have got only one Counsel the permission of the Chair, let me to the Community who does not even avail some elucidation on this matter have support staff – (Interjection) - once again.

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Debate has been heard in this august Attorneys General when they met House and in the Committee on Legal, earlier this month, there is a meeting of Rules and Privileges about the need for drafts people, two from each Partner a draftsman. What Hon. Kanyomozi State, meeting here in Arusha. So, the said about resorting to the Partner process of borrowing has actually States for assistance is a matter, which started, pending recruitment of drafts has been appreciated. people for the Community. Those Drafts people are now working on a I am not saying that at this moment we procedure for the Council’s initiation have exactly what we need, but what of Bills. Thank you. has been resolved by the Council is that, pending the recruitment of a Mr Kanyomozi: Mr Speaker, sir that draftsman as was proposed in the is very interesting. A borrowed jacket Budget, we will be relying on remains a borrowed jacket. Whenever borrowing draftsmen from the three the owner wants it, he takes it back and Partner States, just like we did in the you can be left in the cold. But we past. appreciate the steps being taken to get draftspersons in place. We hope that Right now there is a meeting of this will be speeded up. draftsmen whom we have borrowed, and they are working on the procedure Lastly, I would like to take the on the Council’s initiation of Bills. opportunity to thank our Standing This was a decision taken by the Committee on Legal, Rules and Attorneys General – (Interjection)- Privileges on the initiatives taken so far. They have initiated and presented Ms Kawamara Mishambi (Uganda): Bills to this House, and we commend Mr. Speaker, sir, is it in order for the them for that. Except for presenting the Hon. Counsel to the Community to Budget, the Council of Ministers has keep referring to draftsmen? Are we not presented any Bill before the looking only at the draftsmen, or House. In fact we have become self- should we refer to them as reliant. And I hope we will continue draftspersons? that way. When the Council of Ministers brings in Bills, they will Mr Kaahwa: Mr Speaker, sir, I think supplement and complement what we that was a slip of the tongue. But you are doing. know, in the past, according to the Interpretation Act we have used, Lastly, we need to speed up on what “draftsman” has always been used to Hon. Med Kaggwa has just stated. We include draftswomen. But for my own should pass Bills here and forget about comfort, I will from now use the word the time. When you look at the Treaty, “drafts people”! It may not be elegant it states that assent should be given or in consonance with our within three months of the date of Interpretation Act, but for my own passing of such a Bill. If that assent is comfort, I will use “drafts people” in not given within three months, then the plural and “draftsperson” in the Bill will be referred back to the House. singular form! With those remarks, I support the Mr Speaker, sir, the information I was Motion. giving to the House is that right now, upon the decision taken by the learned

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Mr George Nangale (Tanzania): Mr and Privileges to come up with a Speaker, sir, I want to commend the process to establish whether there is Chairperson of the Standing need for the Standing Committee on Committee on Legal, Rules and Legal Rules and Privileges to come up Privileges for moving this Motion. with a process to check on Bills that are taken over by the Council of Mr Speaker, sir, this Motion will Ministers. Thank you. strengthen further the powers and the rights of this House in fulfilling the Mr Jared Kangwana (Kenya): Mr major objectives of representing the Speaker, sir, I thank the honourable people of East Africa, making laws and members who have contributed to the policies, and overseeing the executive, Motion. I would like to deal with the the Council of Ministers. This Motion issues they have raised, one by one. will also give the Assembly a bona fide status in the membership of the Hon. Ogalo raised the issue of a different international parliamentary draftsperson, and I would like to add associations like the Inter- my concern to that which has been Parliamentary Union. expressed by the Committee and this With those remarks, I beg to support House that we urgently need a the Motion. draftsperson. The Counsel to the Community has indicated that they Mr Calist Mwatela (Kenya): Mr have a Legal Officer. But every time Speaker, sir, I stand to support the we seek assistance from the office of Motion. I want to raise one issue of the Counsel to the Community, it is great concern. him who comes to assist us. If that Legal Officer exists, we would be Mr Speaker, sir, we have been delighted if that person is seconded to informed by the Chairperson of the the Standing Committees of the House. Standing Committee on Legal, Rules and Privileges that there was a draft I know that many of our Standing Bill earlier on, which was taken over Committees are planning to bring by the Council of Ministers but Private Members’ Bills to this House. I nothing has been heard about it. dare say that the Counsel to the Community will find out that he needs Mr Speaker, sir, the Community has more than one Legal Officer to deal continued to spend money illegally with the volume of work, which the considering that there has never been Standing Committees of this House an Appropriation Bill. The Drafting of will come up with. So, the necessity the Appropriation Bill was taken over for a draftsperson in addition to the by the Council of Ministers but Legal Officer should be addressed as a nothing has been heard about it. We matter of urgency. need a procedure to be established such that this House could still pursue I am happy to hear that the process of Bills taken over by the Council of secondment is in place. I do hope that Ministers, so that that taking over by the respective National Assemblies of the Council of Ministers is not used to the Partner States will second people kill the business of this House. here on a permanent basis to assist us with the drafting of Bills while we wait Therefore, there is need for the for the response of the Council of Standing Committee on Legal, Rules Ministers on that matter.

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Mr Speaker, sir, Hon. Med Kaggwa Mr Speaker, sir, Hon. Mwatela raised raised the issue of assent, and I am sure the issue of the Appropriations Bill, the office of the Speaker is attending to which was taken over by the Council that issue. But I think by the end of of Ministers, and the fact that we have next month, the 90 days stipulated in never heard from them. That continues the Treaty will have elapsed. We hope to be case. Even when we were it will be assented to before then. We debating the Budget, honourable know that the office of the Speaker did members expressed doubts about the send those Bills to the various Partner sincerity of the Council of Ministers to States but we do not where they are deal with issues raised in this House. now. They may take a year before they You can see why honourable members come to the attention of the Presidents. are suspicious of the intentions of the So, it is important for this House to Council of Ministers because they took trace these Bills as soon as they are over the Appropriations Bill and they assented to. never brought it back, which means that money has been spent illegally. Mr Speaker, sir, my Committee is aware of the fact that when a Session Mr Speaker, sir, on a personal note, I of this House elapses before a Bill is intend to raise this matter with the assented to, that Bill is bound to die, EACJ because it will be wrong for this and will have to be revived during the House to overlook a serious flouting of following Session. That is the practice the law that was passed by East in all our Partner States. I have been Africans. I will do that in due course. going through our Rules and I find So, I urge the Council of Ministers to nothing in those Rules to stop us from take this House seriously by bringing carrying over those Bills from one appropriate Bills, and to attend to the Session to the next. But should that be questions that are raised in this House. found to be incorrect, it is the intention I also urge the Council of Ministers to of the Committee to bring this Bill be attending the proceedings of this back to the House, and it will seek House. I thank all the honourable fresh mandate. But at the moment, members for supporting this Motion. there is nothing to prevent us from continuing with a Bill in the next With those remarks, I beg to move. Session. (Question put and agreed to) Mr Speaker, sir, the House adopted new Rules over two months ago, and BILLS up to this time, I do not have a copy of the new Rules. I do not know whether FIRST READING other Members of this House have. If they do, then I will have been The Acts of the East African discriminated against. But looking at Legislative Assembly Bill, 2003 the anxious faces of honourable members, I am right to conclude that (The Chairperson, Committee on those Rules have not been circulated, Legal, Rules and Privileges) and I would like to urge the office of the Clerk to ensure that those Rules are BILLS made available. It is not possible for this House to work without that very SECOND READING important instrument.

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The Acts of the East African Legislative circumstances, the mover of a Motion Assembly Bill, 2003 would head such a Select Committee.

(By leave of the House) Mr Speaker, sir, we have done such an unusual thing to put in our Report our BILLS letter to you. Make sure that the document remains intact so that the THIRD READING letter of transmittal is bound within the Report. Our letter reads as follows: - The Acts of the East African Legislative Assembly Bill, 2003 “Honourable Speaker, Sir, our Select Committee was (The Chairman, Committee on Legal, constituted as a result of the Rules and Privileges) House debate on a Motion seeking to investigate the (Bill read the Third Time and passed) circumstances under which the former Clerk of the East MOTION African Legislative Assembly resigned. REPORT OF THE SELECT

COMMITTEE ON THE RESIGNATION OF MR. MURUMBA WERUNGA We undertook this task as a noble task to realistically look The Chairperson, Select Committee at the East African Community (Ms Rose Waruhiu) (Kenya): Mr organs and institutions and Speaker, sir, I would like to lay, in the come out with some House, the Report of the Select constructive contributions. Committee on the resignation of Mr. Murumba Werunga. We would like to take this Before I read the transmittal letter, I opportunity to thank you most would like to explain the unusual sincerely for appointing us to circumstances under which the undertake this exercise, which Committee worked. is critical to the future of this beautiful region, and for As one of my colleagues spoke this allowing us to contribute to the morning about the spirit of Arusha, I promotion of peace, stability would like to pay special tribute to the and progress in the other Members of the Select Community. Committee, Hon. Isaac Abraham Sepetu and Hon. Sarah Bagalaaliwo. I We also appreciate the was privileged to be the Chairperson of extension of time given to the the Select Committee, but as you will Report due to the constraints of get the Report, you will appreciate the time and resources. We thank amount of work and time we have put the honourable members for into this Report. their indulgence.

Mr Speaker, sir, we would like to It was our privilege to be of record our thanks to Hon. Ochieng- service to the course of justice Mbeo for moving the Motion to set up to the Community, and we the Select Committee. Under normal hope, to the people of East Africa.”

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probation period. There have also been Hon. Rose Waruhiu, Hon. Amb, Isaac delays in scheduling of Assembly Abraham Sepetu and Hon. Sarah N. meetings; information has not been Bagalaaliwo signed the letter. forthcoming from the Secretariat and progress on legislation has been Mr Speaker, sir, I would like to go limited. So, what the resignation of the back to the title of this Report. It is Clerk did was to spark off a lot of called the Report of the Select concern as to how the Assembly would Committee of the East African continue to operate. Legislative Assembly on the Resignation of Mr. Werunga. The Title Most members felt that the is deliberate because it reflects what environment in the Secretariat was not the assignment was. It also reflects the conducive to fostering good working reasons why this Committee was set relationships, and the failure of up. I will briefly give you what the communication rendered our background is, what the findings are legislative work difficult. and what our observations are, and then I shall pause there before we It is against this background that Hon. move on to our recommendations. Ochieng-Mbeo introduced the Motion for the appointment of a Select The background is very brief because Committee to examine the members are familiar with this topic. circumstances that led to the But we start with the Treaty because it resignation and to recommend to the is the one, which provides for the House the procedure to be followed by various organs of which the Assembly the officers of the Assembly when is one. The other organs being the resigning. Summit, the Council of Ministers, the Co-ordination Committees, the The House overwhelmingly supported Sectoral Committees, the EACJ and the Motion during its sitting on the Secretariat. February 20, 2003 and approved the recommendations of the mover that a The Assembly assumed its duties after Select Committee be constituted, and inauguration on November 29, 2001. the three honourable members were Honourable members will recall that appointed. In our Report, you will find we commended the work of the the Motion, which is reproduced in full Secretariat and looked forward to a in the Report. close working relationship. To confirm this, you may wish to refer to the Our terms of reference included the maiden speeches in the Hansard. following: - Unfortunately, for the last one and half years, the relationship between the 1. To look into the circumstances Assembly and the Secretariat has been that led to the resignation of the marked with incidences of acrimony, Clerk so soon; which if allowed to continue, are likely 2. To establish whether such to affect the spirit of the Treaty and resignation or acceptance were derail the attainments of its objectives. properly followed; 3. To establish the likely effect of In this short span, the Assembly was the Clerk’s resignation among faced with the resignation of its Clerk, workers of the Assembly and even before he completed the the Secretariat in general;

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4. To look into the regulations But as I have said, members should be governing the workers of the comforted by the fact that we had Community, and whether they enough information. The only issue I were followed generally; would like to mention here, since the 5. To look into the working issue of staff comes up on and off in relationship between the the report, is that some members of Assembly and the Secretariat, staff who appeared before the and how this can be improved Committee were either very and any other matters related apprehensive or over-cautious in their thereto. responses.

We took these terms of reference to The next heading is really to explain mean that our first duty was to how we have worked, and as is normal establish the truth from all the parties; practice, we had meetings, we to examine the effectiveness of the interviewed people, we had administrative process of recruitment documents, we did some searching in and resignation. We proceed to give terms of cross-references, and that is what we construed these terms to explained very briefly in the report. mean, and our own views are presented on page five. The main body of this report has been divided into four basic areas: The first We took our duty to mean that it was one is what we call the findings - I am our first duty to establish the truth from already in chapter five. I know all parties, to examine the effectiveness honourable members are anxious to see of the administrative process of the report – (Interjection) - recruitment and resignation, to reassure staff members of a dignified tenure of Ms Kawamara-Mishambi (Uganda): service, to recommend measures to Mr. Speaker, sir, is it in order for the improve the working relationship honourable member to keep referring between the Assembly and the to a report, which the members do not Secretariat, and generally to promote have? the process of integration in establishing strong institutions. The Speaker: I think what the hon. Chairperson is saying is that members We have included some limitations, should be attentive and they will get which I do not want to dwell on now this report in the next few minutes. because they did not dampen our work, but it is only fair that they should be Ms Waruhiu: Thank you, Mr. recorded. They include the fact that Speaker, Sir. May I tell the honourable there was delay in our ability to meet members a short story? There were the staff in the beginning as we could two men walking and it was rather not meet them until the Secretary dark. One man was leading as the other General gave them authority. followed. When they got where they Secondly, we were not able to meet were going, the one who was ahead some Members of the Council for thought he was the first one to get exhaustive discussion. Thirdly, we had there but he found his friend had difficulty in scheduling some already arrived. So, he asked him, appointments with the people we “How did you get here before me?” wanted to interview. and the friend answered, “Because I followed you very slowly.” It was my

10 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates wish that members follow me very important. It takes almost four pages of slowly because if they had the the report because as reflected on the document in front of them, I was not title of this report, this is the reason sure they would follow me - that sparked off this Select Committee. (Laughter). Then, the resignation of Mr. Werunga itself because of the questions it raises Mr Speaker, sir, I would like to on whether the procedures were indicate that when we come to the followed properly is the last heading of recommendations, we shall pose and, our findings. at that time, have the document circulated. I am trying to give a What I would like to do is to take you summary of the report because I think briefly through the observations we members will have time to read. We have made on these findings. Our first have agreed the debate will be on observation is on the Treaty. Thursday, so there will be time to read. In our examination of the functions of Our findings have five main headings, the Community, the Select Committee and the first one gives the history of found that the Treaty spells out the the relationship between the Assembly functions briefly, but is otherwise and the Secretariat. We started that scanty on the cardinal principle of way because most of our findings separation of powers. This situation reflect this relationship. Secondly, we has allowed both the misinterpretation talk about the communication between of the relationship between the organs the Assembly and the Secretariat, and and the misunderstanding in design of then we talk about the recruitment of the organisation, and the reporting Mr. Werunga as Clerk to the lines within the organisation and the Assembly, and finally the resignation. span of authority in management and decision-making. As I have said, we have described the history because it reflects the findings We recognise that the main purpose of around the Clerk’s resignation. It also all the organs is to cement the brings to bear the failure in defining integration and co-operation of the this relationship because it is this Partner States. Therefore, any affront failure that then leads to the other that negates this principle is bound to topics that we have described. But fail the spirit of co-operation, and secondly, it is the difficulties should be avoided. experienced by the Clerk that bring out this relationship. These difficulties One of the issues that I hope members were based on the position he took in will have time to look into is the fact regard to this relationship. So, I am that many elements of the Tri-partite sure when members get the report, they Commission still exist, especially will appreciate my introduction. within the internal structure of the Secretariat. The Secretariat, as the pre- We have dwelt on communication cursor institution, would have been between the two organs. Again, the expected to facilitate the new organs, problem surrounding the relationship to set them appropriately, but also gave way to communication recognise their independence and breakdown between the two organs. autonomy. The failure to do this has The heading on the recruitment of Mr. made for a poor beginning, and it is Werunga as a Clerk is of course very

11 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates this concern that underlies the problem under review. Our second observation is on the role of the Assembly and the interpretation The Assembly and the Court were the of its mandate. Now, this is the crux of last organs to be set up, and it is the matter, and you will find that this normal, therefore, that in the course of topic occupies ten pages in this report, evolution, problems may emerge. But which is almost a quarter of the entire the resolution of this will require the document. The reason for this is that clarification of the relationship some of the basic issues of contention between the various organs. The are found in the legislative provision, matters were however jolted by the their interpretation and application. simmering dissatisfaction of the Likewise, there are disagreements in members of the Assembly over the application of the Rules of recurring arguments with the Secretary Procedure, the Staff Rules and General. The Assembly considers that Financial Regulations. the Secretary General was responsible: In the course of the interviews, the (a) For the lowly positioning of the legal provisions and interpretations Assembly and the poor were discussed with various treatment of Members; interviewees. They were all generally (b) The poor budgetary provisions. agreed, as we are, on the shortcomings There was little to show that in the Treaty through inadequate the Secretary General was provisions or inconsistency. So, we pushing for the Assembly have made several observations that while sourcing for funds; hinge on interpretation, as I have (c) The failure to implement already said, the application of staff decisions on remuneration for rules and procedures, the ambiguity of Members and to advise the the staff rules and the contradictions in Council of Ministers and the the Treaty. Summit; (d) The failure to attend Assembly The Rules, in many cases, contradict Sessions and to provide the Treaty, particularly in the setting Committees with proper briefs up of the Court and the Assembly. For or to assign staff to follow the instance, the issue of the Clerk became House proceedings; contentious right from the process of (e) The misinterpretation of the recruitment, deployment and Treaty on the role and resignation. The areas of contention, as functions of the Assembly; I have said, can be explained by the (f) The ranking of his principal interpretation of the Treaty, the Rules officer, the Clerk, below the and their application. grade of other professionals in the Community. We spent time on a contentious issue, which is the interpretation given Mr Speaker, sir, what we are saying - through an opinion by the Council to and these are very weighty words. It the Community, when the matter of the may have taken the resignation of the participation of the Assembly came up Clerk of the Assembly to raise these through the House Business matters and to warrant the Select Committee. In this contradiction, the Committee, but the matters would have House took the view that even without surfaced all the same with time. set rules, the Assembly was still

12 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates mandated to determine its procedure. and Regulations to continue in force Therefore, there is quite a bit of debate until the “Community adopts its own on how the House, through the House staff rules and regulations.” So, it is Business Committee is set or organised very unfortunate that despite the rapid to participate in the substantive expansion of the Community and three recruitment of the Clerk, and how, and half years since the Community through the interpretation of the Rules, came into place, the Secretariat has not three members of the Assembly who found it fitting to make new staff rules had travelled to Arusha to take part in and regulations. this recruitment were stopped. Mr Speaker, sir, the Protocol As I said, the head for this whole establishing the Commission and the paragraph is “the Assembly and the Secretariat did not provide for a Interpretation of its Mandate”. This is Legislative Assembly, or a Court of an area where there have been a lot of Justice. Accordingly, it would not discussions and failure to agree. For make good sense for the present Staff instance, in the meeting of the House Rules and Regulations to be made Business Committee in Kampala in applicable to the staff of the Assembly January 2002, which was duly attended and the Court without taking into by the Secretary General, a decision account the fact that the said staff or was reached on how the exercise of institutions they serve were not in recruiting the Clerk would be carried existence at the time the rules were out. They utilised the existing rules in made. So, therefore, to continue to agreeing on the inclusion of members apply these rules only compounds the because there was a vacuum. It was not problem. clear that there were adequate provisions, and in our view, it was We have given about five examples to reasonable and expedient for the House justify this conclusion. They refer to Business Committee to try and fill this the fact that it is our view that the vacuum and enable the House to take Secretary General cannot terminate part in recommending the appointment their employment, but if you use the of its Clerk. Staff Rules, they imply that he can. We have given you the right Article, So, what we are saying is that, even if Article 62,of the Staff Rules, which the House Business Committee had allows the Executive Secretary to opted to use the Rules as they are terminate the appointment of any staff today, it is still important for Members member by giving three months notice. to observe that Article 1 of the Staff The Executive Secretary, with the Rules and Regulations makes it clear consent of the Commission, could also that the rules were meant to apply to terminate the service of a Deputy the Tri-partite Commission and its Executive Secretary. But Article 68 of Secretariat, which Commission and the Treaty provides that the Council Secretariat were established in shall appoint the Deputy Secretaries November, 1994. However, both General. In other words, we are saying institutions ceased to exist on the the rules are out of date. For example, coming of the Treaty in November presently if we went by the rules, the 1999. Secretary General is empowered to terminate the services of staff Article 140 of the Treaty, on the other including Deputy Secretaries General, hand had allowed for the Staff Rules and obviously it would be absurd to

13 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates imagine he can do so. So, we have shared the vision of integration to its given you a few examples of why the optimum. rules are out of date. So, underlying all these Mr Speaker, sir, because there is no misinterpretations and deviations is the clock in this room I hope someone will bigger question of the principle of keep a tab on my time; but I do want to separation of powers and division of mention the other issues very briefly. labour. In the foreword to the Treaty, Articles 1 and 4 of the Rules empower all these intentions are very clear. The the Secretary General to interpret and Treaty apportions the corporate enforce the Staff Rules subject to an mandate and work amongst the organs appeal. And this directly contradicts and institutions, and these divisions of Article 31 of the Treaty, which vests labour aim at maintaining the doctrine the East African Court of Justice with of separation of powers between the this Authority. Executive, the Judiciary and the Legislature. We are saying this is an We are saying that if you apply these intentional measure. Rules, you will have very embarrassing situations. The absurdity Article 71 (1) (h) of the Treaty vests in is only too clear in the matter under the Secretariat the general review in that the Clerk of Parliament administration and financial is barred from taking instructions from management of the Community, and the Assembly, or the Registrar of the the same Treaty empowers the Court to Court is not expected to accept employ staff and also make the instructions of the Court. So, the staffs Registrar responsible to the Judge of the East African Community are President for the day-to-day required to take an oath of allegiance administration of the Court. Very to the Secretary General, and not to curiously, there is absence of a specific seek or accept instructions in regard to provision in respect of the Assembly. the performance of their duties from And we can only construe that the any government or other authority intention would have been the same, external to the Secretariat of the and this is how the House proceeded. Commission. Let me now move to the relationship We have made the case that these rules between the Assembly and the are out of date, and when we come to Secretariat. The Clerk embarked on the recommendations, we shall go into that job on certain assumptions that guide issue. We have given other examples, parliamentary staff everywhere. So, he which will feature in the did the work plan, reviewed the budget recommendations, and we have made line and gave advice on what to him long comments on the interpretation were pertinent issues regarding the given by the Council to the Assembly. But in this work, he had Community, as I said earlier. Though neither the staff nor the capacity to act what we are saying is that the independently, and needed to work in application of old rules can be normal consultation and co-operation with the in a transition, but they require to be Secretariat. It seems that he failed to adjusted when permanent rules are elicit the support he required at this adopted. The assumption was that all critical time. So, he asserted the these processes were to be handled by autonomy of the Assembly and, reasonable and competent staff that therefore, its independence in all its

14 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates working methods and organisation. The Secretary General, as the chief The Assembly supported this view in administrator, is expected to enforce defining the relationship because it was the principle of separation of powers. also keen to protect its independence. Whether it is there by intent or not, his The disentangling of this relationship apparent desire to control and direct was the background as the process to the functioning of the Assembly is, appoint the Clerk was in progress. The therefore, incomprehensible. We Secretary General, on his part, did his found little effort to delegate best to interfere with the appointment responsibility or to harness the of the Acting Clerk. managerial potential of the staff. Instead, authority has to be sought So, we have talked about the intention, from the Secretary General, even on the lack of rules and a new Clerk who the most basic decisions. comes in. Our finding is that the demand made on the Secretariat by the We have made comments about the setting up of the Assembly seems to be staff the Secretariat needs, which at the centre of the current problems. should be sensitive to the building of The members, as political leaders, institutions, to managing transitions, to expect to get information on which to discern challenges and to respond to push for the cementing of the them in a creative and constructive Community, which information is kept manner. We wonder, in fact, how the under oath of secrecy. Secondly, the staff at the moment, bring up decisions Committees of the Assembly ought to to action level by advising and briefing be briefed by technocrats who had the relevant organs. directives not to brief the Assembly without the authority of the Secretary In summarising this issue, we are General. Thirdly, the protocols that the saying that the buck stops there. The Assembly considers should be debated interrelationship of decisions between in draft before they go to Council can the different organs seems to get lost in only be smuggled to it. the web of studies, memorandums, meetings, protocol negotiations and so So, the Select Committee observed that forth. While it may be argued that they the Secretary General is also Secretary are not to be blamed for the slow to the Summit and the Council, and the progress being made, it is the failure of communication affects the Secretariat who should isolate the decision-making process, at times concerns that are relevant for the enhancing the conflict. Again, we give Summit, the Council or the Partner examples to justify this. The first one States. is the Council decision on the revised terms of service, which was made in Right after that, we mention the whole May 2002, but was not on the agenda issue of the work of the Assembly and of the Summit meeting of November how no Bills have come from the 2002. Secondly, the Council decision Council. We commend the Assembly on the self-accounting policy for both for having embraced this responsibility the Assembly and the Court, which has to introduce reports and Bills for not been formally communicated. In debate. other words, the Council has recognised that these two bodies are I am taking long on this because, as I self-accounting. said, it is an issue of direct relevance to the Assembly. The capacity of the

15 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

Assembly to assume its rightful place In accepting the letter of resignation, as the political organ of the East the Secretary General should have African Community is hampered by: taken into account:

(a) Lack of staff; (a) The fact that the probationary (b) Restriction on the number of period had not been completed; sitting days in the calendar (b) The acrimony between himself year; and Werunga; (c) Inaccessibility of information (c) The fact that the normal notice on the status of negotiations on period had not been complied the major instruments for with. integration, especially the status of various protocols; Notice of the Clerk’s resignation (d) Lack of clarity on the should have been brought to the relationship between the organs attention of the House as it was a that are involved as a result of crucial matter, and mere notification of which members are the Speaker was insufficient. marginalized from the core business of integration. We got Now, I will move to the next topic, evidence that this at times led which is “Staff Matters”. The terms of to unorthodox practices of reference require that we comment on accessing information by the effect of Mr. Werunga’s members. resignation. We have also noted that there are many other matters that came to our attention, which we summarise “The appointment and resignation of later on under the title challenges. But Mr. Werunga” is our next main we needed to say the following. heading. In this, we have gone back again to say that apart from the legal The prevailing mood in the Secretariat interpretations, which I referred to breeds fear among staff, and many earlier, and the operation of the law, appear to be playing safe to avoid the we make the following observations: wrath of the Chief Executive - (Laughter). In view of the conflict that had evolved between the Secretary General and the The professional staffs are not being Clerk, it was not prudent, therefore, for encouraged to take initiative, mundane the Secretary General to chair the duties occupy the time of the staff, and interviewing panel. His conduct of the scope of authority to make soliciting applicants and decisions is hampered by the style of recommending for interview a junior management. person who had not applied, and recommending him to the position of We have several cases of a personal Clerk, was unprofessional. These nature affecting the health of actions compromised the independence individuals, which were brought to our of the interviewing panel. attention. These concerned a human Subsequently, three warning letters resource that may be indirectly written by the Secretary General to Mr. subjected to abuse with no attention Werunga, we consider, were in bad being paid to their problems. We have faith. made a request that the Secretary General initiates investigations into the

16 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates health of a number of secretaries, their were informed that in staff hours of work and the effect on their meetings, the staffs were personal well- being. largely quiet and waited for instructions. They did not want The resignation of Mr. Werunga had to appear to contradict the boss. some effect on the staff in the Community headquarters and in This is what explains that it was Kenya. In the first instance, the staffs possible, for example, for the staff to in Arusha have been overly anxious watch a tirade of verbal exchange about the outcome of this report. We between the Secretary General and the found that they were hinging some former Clerk at one staff meeting hope that this report would lead to a without anyone else speaking up. In an resolution of existing problems within earlier event, a staff retreat was called the administration. We were not in a in Mombasa to help build teamwork, position to exhaust discussion on this but on arrival, the agenda and purpose expectation, but we are constrained to of the meeting was changed. At this report the following: - meeting, both the Clerk and the Registrar had prepared papers to stem ƒ Staff Size: the existing problems in the The level of staff within the relationships in the Community organs. Community is inadequate to meet But these plans were abandoned. the workload. In brief, the second effect of Mr. ƒ Treatment of Staff: Werunga’s resignation is the reaction Claims were made about of the Kenya National Assembly. treatment based on selective Although Mr. Werunga had problems interpretation of staff rules. with the Secretary General, the Select Committee found that he received ƒ Working Hours: encouragement to stay on. His was a The staff work long hours, are senior position of honour in Kenya. generally dissatisfied and they The Clerk proposed his initial lack an in-built system for secondment based on ability. The hearing grievances. Overtime efforts to appoint him, as we have said, allowances were abolished in had been rather involving. But there 2001. was an option that allowed Mr. Werunga to retain the status of ƒ Health Issues: secondment, and he was able to return There are unusually marked to his previous position under some cases of staff breakdown on circumstances. Again, we were not grounds of overwork and stress able to understand the circumstances, without much attention being but more recently, when the position of given to examine the causes. the Clerk was advertised during the tenure of the work of this Committee, ƒ Morale: none of the likely candidates in Kenya The motivation of staff and applied by the closing date. We hope level of morale is low. that the outcome of this report will relieve the atmosphere and enable the ƒ Working Atmosphere: Assembly steer its course. The working atmosphere reeks of fear and apprehension. We

17 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

Mr Speaker, sir, we were lucky sought to understand his leadership because we have information from the vision and working methods. Clerks of the National Assemblies of the Partner States on the way forward, He explained the multiplicity of his which I hope members will look at in roles and the need to create a balance the report. In the forthcoming between the various types of meetings appointment of the Clerk, there should he and his staff have to attend. He be agreement on the methodology of mentioned specifically Council getting the right candidate. Secondly, meetings, the building of the new new staff rules and regulations should headquarters and meetings with be in place, removing the ambiguity development partners and the that I referred to earlier. Thirdly, an Assembly. He mentioned specifically impartial selection panel should be that the Assembly had been unwilling agreed on, and that the Assembly to respond to his requests to be made a works towards setting up its own rules Member of the House Business and its own service commission - Committee, which he felt would (Applause). improve the working relationship between his office and the Assembly. I now turn to what we are calling the challenges. In choosing these headings, The biggest challenge for the we had obvious intentions because Secretariat is the management of challenges do not necessarily require transition. Our view was that the comment. They enable us to put down Secretary General bears the areas of concern, and I hope that responsibility for cementing the whole members will look at them with the Community, and in doing so, needs an intention of expounding them. attitude and capacity to hold staff together. This requires leadership that The matters raised in this report reflect is adaptive, flexible, consultative and, issues that the Assembly has had direct needless to say, competent experience with. In nearly all, the management. Assembly formed a dissatisfactory view of the management style, the Another challenge relates to the vision ability of officers to harness support of the leadership. The Select internally, and the failure to provide Committee received insight on the correct information on which the approach by the Secretary General to Assembly could operate. develop teamwork. Managing teamwork is, however, a complex In terms of management, the Secretary system and a direct shift from the old General runs the East African style of hierarchy and fixation. Community. When we met him, we sought to discuss certain questions and The Select Committee raised the those are the ones we have put in the question of how priorities were set. report. We were of the view that the The Committee felt there is need for appointment of a Secretary General management to set its direction and presents an opportunity to drive the priorities amidst our wide range of process of integration efficiently. So, activities. An overview of target dates we tried to elicit from the Secretary for reporting and studies indicates General what he considered to be his delays, postponement of important priority areas of work, and we also decisions or other matters that impinge on day-to-day effective management.

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Before we go into these Lastly, the Select Committee discussed recommendations, let me say that the management roles, organisation of almost every paragraph of these work and delegation. The Committee recommendations would, on its own, found that the management in the constitute proposals on work, which I Secretariat is divided between an hope members will feel inclined to executive of three persons, without take up. There are some whom no decisions can be taken. The recommendations that are urgent or other top officers are designated short term, and there are others that are professional staff, but they had the aimed at long-term solutions to narrow view of their role as that of whatever the underlying problems are. providing information and advice to So, when we come to debate, I hope the Executive. The general staff, that by going through this report, we including those providing support in will provide members with areas of accounts and administration, see their work, which they can follow, either role as that of receiving instructions through other resolutions or other and directives. Motions. But the weight of these recommendations can only be realised In reference to the relationship if the House is going to debate them between the organs of the Community, with a view of making sure that we very little is recorded. Therefore, the follow them up through motions or spectrum in which all are expected to whatever actions are required. operate provides openings and gaps that are subject to diverse Staff Matters: interpretations. (a) The first recommendation starts Mr Speaker, sir, before I move to with a statement because the recommendations, I would like to seek resignation of the Clerk came the indulgence of the Chair that the about as a personal decision on report be now circulated so that we can the person of Mr. Werunga. come to the final pages together. The Kenya National Assembly currently employs him. (Copies of the Report issued to Although the resignation members) acceptance letter was silent on the underlying reasons, it was Ms Waruhiu: If Members could turn common knowledge within the to page 40, then we can look at the Community that the two recommendations. personalities could not relate to one another, and it was The Select Committee grouped the therefore only a matter of time recommendations into parts, the first before the two parted. The one being matters to do with staff, Select Committee considered which is paragraph 8.1 on page 40; that this issue should be closed. matters to do with the Treaty, paragraph 8.2 on page 41; the (b) The Select Committee Assembly, paragraph 8.3 on pages 42 recommends that the and 43 and the relationship between independence of the Assembly the Secretariat and the Assembly, should be manifest in the paragraph 8.4 on page 44. recruitment process of its staff, and a possibility of recurrence

19 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

of the aforesaid mistakes statement, but here you will should be avoided. This implies find in the body of the report that there is urgent need for the the urgency of having these Assembly to determine its staff rules. rules in the recruitment exercise. In view of the The Treaty: urgency of this problem, the House sitting in this session (a) The Treaty has been should come up with a acknowledged by all persons resolution that will govern the interviewed to have substantial on-going exercise of recruiting shortcomings and it is not a new Clerk. We know this is a comprehensive enough. There very high demand, but that is is need for the Assembly and our recommendation. all stakeholders to study the Treaty in detail. In my humble (c) Our observations are that the submission, we are directing Assembly needs staff of its own this recommendation also at to make the work of the ourselves. Any necessary Assembly possible. This raises recommendation for debate on the suggestion that amendment of the Treaty the secondment of staff from should be made to the Council the National Assemblies may and the Partner States. not be the answer. However, the component of staff of the (b) The setting up of the Assembly Assembly is very small, and was rushed through. We have every individual on board has been through many documents to carry a substantial load of to be able to say this, as it was work directly, as opposed to important to have it in place, working in a large but without adequate establishment and learning on discussions on the implications the job. It is realistic, therefore, on resources and management that a Clerk has to be recruited and the transitional from persons with relevant arrangement towards its experience and suitable political role. This matter standing to operate at the level should receive consideration expected. The House will from the Council of Ministers debate secondment versus and the Summit appointment and realise also that working at the East African (c) The appointment of the Legislative Assembly is not a Secretary General and his learning process. deputies currently seems to give prominence to rotation (d) The rules that govern the between Partner States rather transition period were made in than the job specifications. The 1996 and they do not cater for designation to the positions of the new developments Secretary General and Deputy highlighted in the Treaty. They Secretaries General should be should be updated and based on criteria of the harmonised without any further responsibilities they are to delay. This may be a short

20 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

assume in cognisance of the duties of each office. (b) The Assembly must regulate its business and work. This should (d) The absence of ministers commence with the setting up creates gaps in consultation and of a pre-budget function for the political leadership necessary to Assembly, which would be facilitate a functional working integrated in the budget cycle of the Community. Resident for the East African ministers or ministers with Community. The Assembly specific Community portfolio should prepare and publish its would enhance the presence of working calendar. the Executive, and its capacity to make decisions and follow (c) Members must embark upon a through. The number of strategic plan for the EALA. meetings of the Council, and This will speed up decisions on we dare add, the Summit, key areas where the Assembly should be increased can influence the process of co- operation vis-à-vis the Partner (e) The resolutions of the Council States, the Council of Ministers contain policy decisions and and the Summit. The must be Tabled in the House or performance of the strategic communicated to the Assembly plan should be monitored and formally. reviewed regularly.

(f) The Council to the Community (d) The principle of separation of should be implored to perform powers should be manifest in his role independently and the operations of the various objectively. organs of the Community. Hence the Court and the The Assembly: Assembly should be given the control over the preparation of (a) The East African Legislative their budgets and supervision Assembly, while seen as the of their finances under the top political body in the three President of the Court and the organs of government, is yet to Speaker of the House entrench itself adequately to respectively. They should get push for integration as would the staff in it to be self- be expected. An independent accounting. Service Commission similar to the Parliamentary Service (e) The Assembly itself has not Commissions in the Partner made enough effort to draw its States is the ultimate goal that own plan of action for its will entrench the independence activities, which omission will of the Legislature as one of the affect delivery. It should organs of the Community. In address itself to the Treaty, its order to build the foundations shortcomings and the likely of this Commission, a nucleus effects on the progress of work for this structure should be of the Assembly. instituted under the chairmanship of the Speaker.

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(f) The Assembly should debate In the course of the interviews, the the draft protocols before they Select Committee came across a are signed. The Assembly, in number of issues, some of which we the process, may set up feel should be shared at another level working groups or use the with the Council of Ministers. Committees to discuss the protocols. The protocols will There were other management issues eventually come for legislation entirely outside our mandate, which after debate has been allowed the Select Committee feels obliged to before the Partner States sign bring to the attention of the authority them. concerned. In order to protect this information, we felt it proper to bring The Relationship between the it in the Assembly. Let me add that we Secretariat and the Assembly: had information coming to us up to the last day of our work, even when we (a) The delay in the were doing our report, and these implementation of plans and documents are available. We felt that decisions in the Plans and bringing it to the House gives it the Protocols has compounded the protection it requires. unease between the two organs. There is need for clear In the Annexe, we have listed some management and direction to documents. We did not feel that they achieve the objectives of the all need to be tabled, which means Treaty. Members will have to do a lot of work in the next 48 hours in time for debate (b) The professional staff should on Thursday. But matters that came to be available to brief the us, which mainly have to do with staff Members of the Assembly in are available in the House for members Standing Committee Meetings. to peruse. This role should be reflected in their job specifications. The Select Committee expects the Assembly, in discussing this report, (c) For the avoidance of doubt, any will find basis for subsequent contentious issues should be resolutions around our findings, brought before the attention of alluded to or confirmed. We have also the Court of Justice for made observations in the interest of interpretation. projecting the wider implications and measures that will ensure smooth Conclusion: operations within the Community.

In this report, effort has been made to Finally, the Select Committee has reflect the matters that have relevance made recommendations in areas that to the Assembly and its role in the require attention. There are suggestions integration and in achieving the that require both short-term and long- objectives of the Treaty for the term considerations. establishment of the East African Community. In other words, we have Mr Speaker, sir, the Select Committee tried to be relevant. must commend the foresightedness of this Motion, which although it sought to address a few matters of concern,

22 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates has brought forth challenges that the FOR A RESOLUTION OF THE Assembly needs to seriously address in ASSEMBLY SEEKING TO ESTABLISH the delivery of services to the people of A COMMITTEE WITH A MANDATE East Africa. The Select Committee has TO BRING AN END TO THE endeavoured to address all areas within VIOLENCE IN NORTHERN UGANDA our mandate adequately and we also tried to anticipate the expectations of Mr Daniel Ogalo (Uganda): Mr members. If members have to read Speaker, sir, I beg to move: between the lines, we shall be available for consultation. The Select Committee THAT, This Assembly, thanks the members for the trust bestowed on it to carry out this NOTING THAT Article 5 of the assignment - (Applause). Treaty for the Establishment of the East African Community provides that The Speaker: The report of the Select one of the objectives of the Committee has been tabled in the Community is the promotion of peace, House and original copies have been security and stability within the Partner distributed to the honourable members. States; I believe you will need time to go through the report, comprehend and NOTING FURTHER that under prepare yourselves for debate on Article 124 of the Treaty the Partner Thursday. Honourable members will States agreed to foster and maintain an also need to consult the Members of atmosphere that is conducive to peace the Select Committee on matters of and security through co-operation and importance or urgency. The annexes as consultations on issues pertaining to enumerated in the report are also peace and security of the Partner States available, and so I believe honourable with a view of preventing disputes and members will be ready for debate on conflicts between them; Thursday. AND FURTHER noting that Article 123 (4) (d) of the Treaty provides that ADJOURNMENT the Partner States shall pursue the objective of a common security policy by inter alia peaceful resolution of The Speaker: Honourable members, it disputes and conflicts between and is now time for the interruption of within the Partner States; business. The House is adjourned until 4.00 p.m. in the afternoon. AND NOTING that Article 6 of the Treaty provides that peaceful settlement of disputes is one of the [The House was suspended at 11.00 fundamental principles, which shall p.m. and resumed at 4.00 p.m.] govern the achievements of the objectives of the community; [On resumption_] AND AWARE that the conflict has [The Speaker, Mr A.O. Kinana in the been going on in Northern Uganda for Chair] more than 17 years with the Government of Uganda trying to resolve the conflict in two different MOTION

23 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates ways; through peaceful settlement and AWARE of the complexities of factors through force; outside the partner states impacting on the conflict; AND FURTHER AWARE that the Government of Uganda enacted the NOW THEREFORE do resolve that Amnesty Act 2001 with the hope that it the Council of Ministers recommends would bring an end to the conflict; to the Summit the following measures aimed at bringing an end to the AND FURTHER AWARE that conflict, that: various initiatives have been taken in an attempt to end the conflict by (a) Each Partner State appoints various actors, including the eminent persons to form the Government, political leaders (national “East African Community and local), religious and traditional Peace Committee for Uganda; leaders, and civil society organisations; (b) The Speaker nominates three AND RECOGNIZING with Members of the East African appreciation the personal efforts H.E. Legislative Assembly to be part President Yoweri Museveni of Uganda of the said Committee; has committed to finding a lasting solution to this problem; (c) The Summit appoints a Technical Team to assist the THIS ASSEMBLY having visited the Peace Committee; and further district of Gulu in the month of March that 2003, and having met with H.E. the President of Uganda, local leaders and (d) The Council of Ministers draws other stakeholders, who expressed up terms of reference for the willingness to work with the East peace committee for approval African Legislative Assembly and by the Summit; other organs of the East African Community in seeking a resolution to (e) The Council of Ministers do the conflict; and having been assured report to the Assembly on the by H.E. President Museveni that a progress within one month Summit of Heads of State of East from the date of passing of this Africa shall be convened within the Resolution; district of Gulu to discuss the conflict; (f) The Council of Ministers do AND FURTHER having witnessed the give priority to this Resolution; terrible conditions under which the and people affected by the conflict are living; (g) The Council appoints, with the approval of the Summit, a AND FURTHER AWARE of its permanent Peace Commission devastating impact on the peoples and for the East African economies of the sub-region, and Community. consequently on the development of Uganda and East Africa as a whole; Mr Speaker, sir, members of this and Assembly travelled to Northern Uganda in March 2003. The honourable members saw for

24 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates themselves what the situation was like now, the rebels have not been able to there. But first and foremost, I wish to name a team. commend the Secretary General for having insisted during our seminar at Mr Speaker, sir, I need not to remind Lake Manyara that we should begin by honourable members of what they saw knowing our constituents. It was as a when they were in Gulu. It is obvious result of that, that we were able to that the conditions under which the embark on the tour of northern people are living is terrible; the loss of Uganda, and saw it all for ourselves. life and economic activity plus what the honourable members were told Mr Speaker, sir, the conflict in when we met His Excellency, Northern Uganda has been going on President Museveni encouraged us to for 17 years. The Government of the think that we could be able, in this Republic of Uganda has tried several Assembly, to provide what others have means to bring this conflict to an end. not been able to provide in terms of One of the ways was the passage of the provision of a neutral body so that the Amnesty Act in 2001. This Act, among element of mutual suspicion which others, provided that those engaged in underlies this problem is eliminated. fighting the government, if they came out voluntarily, would not be Mr Speaker, sir, when we were in prosecuted and that they would be Gulu, Hon. Mwatela made a moving resettled, and we would put that history speech at Pabo, and the multitude of behind us so that we could live people who are ‘jailed’ in that camp peacefully together. This was a process simply stared at him. He tried to of reconciliation. emphasise that this Assembly would do something to alleviate their Since, the coming into force of that suffering. Those people just stood still Act in 2001, we still have problems and looked at him without appreciating because very few of those fighting the his speech. He sensed it and informed Government have responded to the them that this was not the usual mere Amnesty Act. The Lords Resistance political talk. He was very emotional Army (LRA) has more or less ignored about it as many Members of this that and, therefore, that action taken by Assembly were. Hon. Kate Kamba also the Government of Uganda has been of made another very emotional address no major impact in Uganda. at Gulu, so did Hon. Beatrice Shellukindo with the promise that the Mr Speaker, sir, the government, people of East Africa would definitely religious, civil society and traditional do something to bring to an end the leaders have tried to persuade the suffering of the people of Northern rebels to abandon the war but to no Uganda. avail. Unfortunately, because of mutual suspicion or lack of Mr Speaker, sir, when this Assembly commitment, all that has come to commits itself that way, especially in naught. Recently, the President of the the presence of its Speaker, that Republic of Uganda named a peace becomes a matter of the House and the team headed by Hon. Eriya Kategaya, credibility of the House is going to be Minister for Internal Affairs, and asked an issue if we merely come to Arusha the rebels to also name a team so that and go to sleep. It is, therefore, very they could sit down and find a solution essential that the promises of those to this armed conflict. As we speak who committed us is given effect.

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That is what we shall be charged by; This House should not be understood that we made promises, not only to the to be one whose members go around Heads of State, but also to the ordinary making promises and do not fulfil people of East Africa, which we have them. The credibility of the House will not fulfilled. The fact is that we are be greatly undermined if we work that well intentioned and whenever we way. have an opportunity to discuss their problems, we should try to move the We have made promises to the people Council and the Summit so that we can of East Africa whenever we visit them. be able to fulfil these obligations. We made promises in Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda but the problem has been The US$10 million that Hon. Ochieng- that we do not seem to find time within Mbeo talked about needs co-operation which to address those promises we from the Secretariat to see how we can make. For example, when we were in come up with the money. But the Zanzibar, we made promises there. Secretariat is badly funded, has no When Hon. Ochieng-Mbeo looked at staff. They have very few people with the boat, he said it was a small matter a lot of work. So, my plea is that we and that the Assembly was going to must fulfil our promises. I am moving find the USD10 million. I am not sure this Motion so that honourable that he is willing to go back there and members can express their feelings repeat the same statements that he about what they saw in Gulu, and be made at that time. At the Busia border, able to advise on the way forward Hon. Kanyomozi stood up and told the about that terrible situation. people not to worry because those borders would be done away with. So, With those remarks, I beg to move. those people are waiting and I do not know whether Hon. Kanyomozi is Mr Calist Mwatela (Kenya): Mr willing to say the same today. Speaker, sir, I will be as brief as I possibly can, because Hon. Ogalo has Mr Speaker, sir, we mean well in all given a background to this Motion. We these promises, which we make to the all remember our visit to Northern people of East Africa. We even Uganda was not like the other visits we committed ourselves to the presidents have made to other parts of East of the three Partner States! Hon. Rose Africa. Some of the honourable Waruhiu, for example, knows what she members of this House were not able promised President Museveni with to talk when we were asked to do so. regard to the role of the Assembly. Hon. Marando made promises to the If you recall, at the GUSCO former President of Kenya on what the Rehabilitation Centre, Hon. Prof. Assembly was going to do. Hon. Sarah Kamar was asked to speak, but she Bagalaaliwo made promises to could only lead the children there in a President Mkapa about the role of the word of prayer. That explains the depth Assembly and Hon. Med Kaggwa also of the sympathy that we all had for the made promises to President…They all people of Northern Uganda. When I said that this Assembly was going was asked to speak at the camp of the work to the satisfaction of East displaced persons at Pabo, it was a Africans. difficult task because I was talking to people whose tomorrow is not like

26 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates mine. I was talking to people who had begin by commending hon. Daniel seen all in life! Ogalo for his stimulating remarks, and secondly for his intuition and timely At GUSCO, we were given a brief by judgement to bring this very important one of the young ladies who was being Motion before the august House. This rehabilitated. She narrated some kind is the time when our memories of of life, which we only see in films. Gulu, Kitgum and Pader districts of Honourable members will recall that at Northern Uganda are still fresh in our Lacor Hospital, we saw people whose minds. hands have been chopped off, whose jaws have been crushed and so on. I Mr Speaker, sir, as I speak now, the think it is impossible to describe images of severe human suffering that adequately the suffering of the people we witnessed in Uganda is still of Northern Uganda. As Hon. Ogalo hovering in my mind. We saw girls has said, when you see a situation of and boys of tender age, most of them that kind, you will want to help, and minors, who in law would be taken to we did make promises that we would be incapable of committing crimes, but like to do something about it as the when we looked at them, their eyes representatives of the people. and faces exhibited clear depreciation of their youth and innocence. You will recall that we met the President of Uganda, His Excellency Mr Speaker, sir, hon. Ogalo and hon. President Yoweri Museveni, and one Mwatela have reminded us that when of the honourable members did ask we were there, hon. Prof. Kamar was whether he would object to peaceful asked to speak on our behalf, but she moves being made by this House broke into a song with tears in her towards a solution to the problems of eyes. I remember that song very Northern Uganda. The President was clearly. It was a song of love and hope, categorical that he is not opposed to which those children needed very any moves, which will bring a solution badly after their terrible ordeal. to the problems in Northern Uganda. It is against that background that Hon. I remember Pabo Camp, which had Ogalo saw it fit to move this Motion. over 61,000 people. No wonder, my brother, hon. Mwatela gave a very Mr Speaker, sir, this Motion emotional speech, and last week he fell recommends to the Council of short of a gun to settle the matter Ministers to take steps to alleviate the himself. suffering of the people of Northern Uganda. I plead with the Council of Lacor Hospital was another living Ministers and Summit to act on this testimony of the ugly consequences of Motion, when the House has passed it, war. A modern hospital has been so that East Africans can go about their turned into an open guesthouse for businesses for the good of their lives. 100s of families at night. This exposes those families to all sorts of vices With those remarks, I beg this House under the sun. It is a terrible situation! to give some hope Acholis and the The message I am trying to pass across Langos of Northern Uganda. I beg to here is that all is not okay in East second. Africa. East Africa is bleeding! Dr. Harrison Mwakyembe Mr Speaker, sir, over half of the people (Tanzania): Mr Speaker, sir, let me in the districts we have mentioned,

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Gulu, Kitgum and Pader have been displaced, and consequently turned A few years later, another great son of into refugees in their own country. Africa, Mwalimu Julius Kambarage When we were passing through the Nyerere made another Pan-Africanist bushy areas of the districts of Gulu, we commitment. He said: “The could see green vegetation there, and Independence of Tanganyika is almost our colleagues from Uganda told us meaningless as long as there are still that those areas were once very pockets of colonial rule in Africa.” productive in agriculture, but now Mwalimu Nyerere went further and those are no go areas and are turned Tanzania into a home and a rear dependent on food rations and base for all freedom movements in the donations. That is a sad situation! continent of Africa.

Mr Speaker, sir, this war has gone on Mr. Speaker, I would like to invoke the for too long. Seventeen years is just same Pan Africanist sentiments of too long a time for this war to continue those great sons of Africa with regard unnoticed by East Africans! It was the to the situation we find in northern first time for some of us to realise that Uganda. Our efforts to create a federal there is something serious happening East Africa will come to naught if in that part of East Africa. East Africa northern Uganda continues to be a no is bleeding! If you depend on reading go area. Like both Nkrumah and the East African, you cannot get that Nyerere, we must take active part in picture! We are not talking about the efforts to resolve this conflict. We Congo, Rwanda or Sudan at this time. do not have much choice about that. We are talking about a sizeable chunk This Motion, which was brought by of East Africa, which is a no go area. I my brother, hon. Dan Ogalo, is a step am happy that we visited Northern in the right direction. We want a Uganda; we spoke to the people, gave peaceful environment in East Africa. them courage and promised a lot of things. What else could we have done? Mr Speaker, sir, when Tanganyika attained independence on December 9, This Motion has provided us with an 1961, Zanzibar was still under Arab opportunity to discuss and make rule, and that made Mwalimu Nyerere recommendations about the state of extremely uncomfortable. He did not affairs in northern Uganda. We cannot see how Tanganyika would enjoy its leave this matter in the hands of the independence when Zanzibar was still Ugandan Government alone. We have in the hands of aliens. He also saw a role to play as well. One may ask Zanzibar as a serious security risk as what the need for co-operation is if this long as it was in the hands of aliens. sort of thing is allowed to continue in northern Uganda. These two disturbing factors made Mwalimu Nyerere comment one day Mr Speaker, sir, immediately after that he wished he could tow Zanzibar Ghana’s Independence, that great son into the middle of Indian Ocean. Of of Africa, Kwame Nkrumah gave a course he did not tow away Zanzibar. very memorable Pan Africanist He worked very closely with the Statement. He said: “Ghana’s nationalist forces within Zanzibar to Independence is meaningless as long kick out the Arabs, and the 1964 as there are still pockets of colonial Revolution was the positive result of domination in Africa.” Mwalimu’s engagement.

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I note that much as the Speaker and the We may wish to tow away the northern Clerk’s robes are also presentable, they parts of Uganda right into the middle do not reflect the colours we had of the Sudan, but it is impracticable. If recommended. We hope that steps will we are used to towing away, then soon be taken to put that into effect. tomorrow, Kampala, Mbarara or Lake Victoria will have problems; we will Mr Speaker, sir, our visit to Gulu was tow them away. By so doing, we may an eye-opener, as my good friend, hon. end up having no East Africa at all! Mwakyembe, has just said it. Those of We must find a lasting solution to the us who do not come from Uganda did conflicts in the area. This is an issue of not know what was happening until we constructive engagement. visited Gulu. When we were still in Uganda we got information that the Mr Speaker, sir, I believe we have rebels had even murdered a peace started well. For example, we promised emissary who had been sent by the the children at GUSCO that we would Presidential Peace Team without give them some pocket money. The fulfilling his duties. That makes us sad. Chairman of the Ugandan Chapter, I need not repeat the sadness reflected hon. Kanyomozi collected US$100 in the speeches of my good friends from each one of us, and he now has who spoke before me. enough money to take to those children. Of course if he has a Mr Speaker, sir, we have examples shortfall, he will get it later. That is the going on in this region in respect of sacrifice he has to make as a leader! peace initiatives. I say this with more comfort because the honourable Mr Speaker, sir, hon. Kanyomozi came minister for Foreign Affairs and up with a very wonderful Motion last International Co-operation of Kenya week, requiring East Africa to who is deeply involved in these efforts negotiate as a single block in is here. We have the Somali peace international matters. This Motion initiative going on in Kenya and from before the House now is a positive step what we read in the Press, there seems in the right direction. The mandate of to be some good progress towards the East African Peace Committee for peace. We also have the Sudanese East Africa is broad, so that the present peace initiative going on in Kenya and situation of suspicion and mistrust that from what I read recently in the Press, may arise out of any tendencies of they will sign an agreement very soon. exclusion is addressed. This would not have been imagined a few years back, that Dr. John Garang Finally, as we make this matter an East would sign an agreement with General African problem, I see the need to keep El Bashir. But these are things that we the people of East Africa properly now see and we are happy about such informed so as to keep the present progress. initiative a broader support. With these remarks, I support the Motion. Mr Speaker, sir, we have had no Government in the Congo for quite Mr Mabere Marando (Tanzania): sometime. We are told that in Congo, Mr Speaker, sir, I commend those who every province has its own designed the uniform of the Sergeant- government, and even currency. But at-Arms. It is well tailored, coloured there have been peace initiatives going and it reflects the dignity of the House. on in Lusaka, in South Africa, and in

29 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates just a few days, they signed an When we went to Gulu, the bishops, agreement in Dar es Salaam. We are sheikhs and other opinion makers had hoping that this may lead us to some constituted themselves into a peace success in that part of Africa. team, and the President had in fact appointed them into a Presidential The peace initiative in Burundi was Peace Team, but one of the emissaries concluded in Arusha and we have just was murdered when he was sending a seen a more or less peaceful transition message to Joseph Kony. So, we do of government from Buyoya to not expect to have an internal Ndayisiye, which is very settlement of that nature within commendable. Uganda. I am saying this, bearing in mind the confidence we received from The lesson we learn from this is that, in the President of Uganda during our this part of the World, such peace visit. He told us that we were free to initiatives have been successful when try the best we could. He was they are hosted outside the home pessimistic as to whether we could country of the feuding parties. We succeed. learn that the rebels feel safer when another Government gives them a Mr Speaker, sir, with the present guarantee of safety to go and negotiate opening up of the democratic process and go back to the bush where they in Uganda, it is important that this came from. For example, John Garang process takes place now so that the comes to Kenya from the bush and is people of Northern Uganda can also facilitated by the Kenyan Government enjoy the opening up of the democratic to go back to the bush and continue space within their country, and fighting. participate in free elections.

So, what we need in this case is an Mr Speaker, sir, I am not very external government to give assurances comfortable with the structuring of the of security and safety to Joseph Kony Resolutions. I do not have our Rules of and his colleagues; that they will come Procedure here, but I am ready to be here, in Arusha for example, to corrected if I proceed wrongly. The negotiate with the government of framing of resolution (a) sounds to me Uganda, and they will be allowed to go like the Assembly is purporting to give back to the bush to continue to fight! directions to the Heads of State, which This is what we have learnt from the I think is not diplomatic, if not out of peace initiatives that are going on in our mandate. It is not going to make the region. This is what we have learnt, good rapport, and at the end of the day, sad as it is, but that is what is most of the other resolutions seem as if happening on the ground. we are forming this peace committee. We seem to be taking too much into Mr Speaker, sir, the Tanzanian our hands. Government has had some bit of peace initiative. The muafaka between CUF I was of the humble opinion that we and CCM was home-grown, well may recommend to the Council of managed and has been, to some Ministers, who may be pleased to extend, very successful after the deaths make representations to the Heads of of several of our citizens. But in the State, who should seriously consider case of Uganda, this has failed! the possibility of forming this peace team in a manner they deem fit. Such a

30 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates resolution would be more fitting than which act as hospitals. We were told structuring it the way it appears. I do that the ones we saw were a little bit not want us to issue resolutions that better. They chose to leave the comfort may make some people jittery that we of their homes because where we are ordering them around. This found them was the safest place they initiative will involve all the three could to. That really touched us. We governments of East Africa taking saw people eating food which is unfit decisions as we can see in the Burundi for human consumption. By the time and the Congo crisis. At one time, the we reached that place, we were already former President of Kenya chaired the hungry, but after seeing the suffering Somali talks himself. So, we should of those women and children, we did not be seen as ordering the Heads of not feel hungry again! While there, I State to do certain things. was reminded of that proverb which says “I cried because I had no shoes, I do not want to formulate a new until I saw a man who had no legs.” I resolution, but I would like to provide was crying and dying for a cup of tea a general framework of the new while those people there were longing resolution as follows that we resolve for a cup of muddy water! that the Council of Ministers makes representations to the Summit that it Mr Speaker, sir, if there is anything may consider the possibility of that can be done to remedy that initiating an East African Community situation I pray that it be done very Peace Committee for Uganda in a quickly. When I see our Heads of State manner that they determine, with a acting as peace mediators for several view to having the dispute resolved countries outside East Africa, I feel peacefully, and that Members of this ashamed. How can you go and clean a Assembly are at their disposal at their neighbour’s house when ours is disposal. stinking? Charity should begin at home. We should find ways and means Ms Mahfoudha Hamid (Tanzania): of bringing peace in our own region, Mr Speaker, sir, I would like to rather than spending time solving other congratulate hon. Ogalo for moving people’s problems. the Motion. How can a person from Busia in Kenya Mr Speaker, sir, what we saw is Gulu feel free to take his maize to sell in is something which this House does Gulu when there is no peace in that not hope to see anywhere in East area? How sure can that person be of Africa. We want to see it erased from his or her safety, or that of their our history by whatever means property? available. The thing that touched most honourable members, especially We are talking about free movement of female members of this House, is the the people. If the people in Uganda fact that in Gulu we saw how women themselves do not dare go to Gulu, and children have suffered. They are how can people from Tanzania and the ones who bore the brunt of the Kenya dare go to that place when there atrocities and the results of this is no peace? unnecessary war in Uganda. Mr Speaker, sir, we saw women sitting Mr Speaker, sir, I do not want to take a under trees with their children lot of time on this, but I wish to plead receiving medical attention under trees with my colleagues to support this

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Motion. With those remarks, I beg to put forward the complexities brought support. into that war by foreign factors.

Capt. Richard Ddudu (Uganda): In the history of liberation of Africa, Thank you, Mr Speaker, sir, for giving we see that it started with racism in me this opportunity to contribute to South Africa. Internally, racism took a this debate, which is on a matter very very virulent form in that the blacks dear to my heart because the region in were treated badly. They were question is where I come from. imprisoned. For example, Nelson Mandela did not even pass through his I would first of all like to thank my youth. He went from childhood and colleagues for having considered going literally grew old in prison, and came to northern Uganda, which is under a out to rule the country in the end. situation that they saw with their own There were experiments done on eyes. human beings, weird scientific experiments done on blacks. There When we came to this Assembly, we were executions. straightaway embarked on working together in our political work and other The attendant social and economic activities. We have been doing effects of poverty, crime and disease everything together in harmony and accompanied this. But then, racism had work has been so pleasant. In this an external face. It crossed the borders instant, when we suggested that we go to destabilise the neighbouring to Gulu in spite of the difficulties, we countries. Countries like Mozambique were therefore able to go together to and Angola were being attacked almost this region. That shows the close-knit on a daily basis. kind of relationship we have in our work in this House. I thank all the There were other countries that were members for their co-operation, and I not being attacked at all by South wish for us to continue to work Africa. There was Uganda, Kenya, together throughout our term in the Tanzania; here and there, but the same spirit. effects were not felt so much in these other countries because there were I would like to commend the Members other small countries that were of Parliament for their bravery, bordering South Africa. They were compassion and hard work all through working as buffer zones. Otherwise, the period we have been working the racists would have crossed to all together up to now, especially during the other countries. So, today, they are the tour of northern Uganda. beating you and tomorrow, they may beat another person. After all, they Having said that, I would like to draw only needed to see a black man and parallels about the actions this House then they hit, because their target was will want to be taken, and the actions based on colour! of our great forefathers and our leaders in this continent. I shall briefly go into Now, I wish to relate that issue to how the history of African liberation and try the northern part of Uganda is affected to bring out the connections between in the same way by external factors. what happened in history and what is South Africa was being liberated by happening now, and its impact on the first the force of arms, and ultimately “Northern War” so that I may clearly by negotiations. Maybe it is that when

32 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates you come to negotiations, you go to knowledge for everybody who reads review the results of the battlefield, international newspapers. and then make a way forward. Capt. Richard Ddudu: Mr Speaker, In northern Uganda, we are bordered sir, I would like to thank the by Sudan. It so happens that in Sudan, honourable member who reads the to-date, there is racism based on papers for that information because it colour: the blacks versus the Arabs, is actually common knowledge – whom they call locally as mundukuru. (Laughter). There is a clear divide between the northern and the southern parts of that This is the parallel I was drawing. country. There have been wars because Racism in South Africa led to of that racism since I was born. It enslavement of the black people, started in the 1950s and is still going which led to economic devastation. on. There was Anyanya I, Anyanya II The same thing is happening in and then the Sudan Peoples’ Liberation northern Uganda. One time, we had a Army (SPLA). peace mission that was organised under Mrs. Betty Bigombe in northern The problem of racism in Sudan is a Uganda. When the peace mission was very big cause of destabilisation in this going on, the Sudanese factor came region. It also has an external face, just into it, and instead of negotiating like the one in South Africa. Northern peace, the guerrillas were buying Uganda being the nearest region of ropes, knifes, guns etc, to continue East Africa to Sudan, certainly it with the war. So, it broke down suffers the aggression of the Sudanese because of the external factor. in terms of their racist thinking. Why then is Africa closing its eyes to You find the Sudan using the situation racism amidst, which is causing in the North, supplying arms, taking complexities of issues in neighbouring children away from northern Uganda countries? Why I compare the actions and selling them into slavery. All these of this House to one of our great are documented facts. There are some leaders in the past is that this House organisations from the USA who have seems to have recognised that this is been buying children from northern not a small matter. It is a regional Uganda who have been enslaved in the matter, and it is actually a matter for Sudan, and bringing them back. the whole of Africa. Slavery and racism are still going on up to date – (Interjection). I put it to the House that if we condemn the racism in Sudan, then the Mr Ochieng-Mbeo (Kenya): Mr. peace negotiations going on in Kenya Speaker, sir, you have heard the will succeed. If we condemn that member make a very wild allegation external factor, then the war in the that some organisations from the USA Democratic Republic of Congo will are buying children from Sudan. Could stop because it is the same Sudanese he substantiate? who are supplying arms to Ugandan groups in the DRC, who attack from Mr Mabere Marando (Tanzania): the Western axis. This is a known fact. Mr. Speaker, sir, I beg to inform hon. Therefore, in effect, we should have a Mbeo that this is a matter of common unified approach to this regional problem so that we can even have

33 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates peace in the Great Lakes region. We appreciate that one part of our body are on the right track because we know was suffering, and that it badly needed that Kony gets external support. Arab attention. countries support him, and that is documented. The Iraqi Government Mr Speaker, sir, as the head of over was supporting the other groups that 650 NGOs in Uganda, I worked on the came from the western axis. Therefore, war in northern Uganda for six years. I it should not be surprising when passionately feel for the suffering of terrorism shows up in our countries. the people in northern Uganda, especially the women and children. We have had terrible experiences of Rarely do women start conflicts. terrorism in Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania. This problem has therefore Mr Speaker, sir, I have seen a number ceased to be a problem of the Ugandan of politicians in Uganda starting wars, Government. It has been there for 17 fighting them, reviving them again and years. What else can we say? It has got some of them have been very to be handled in a manner that we can opportunistic politicians. As a result, actually deal with the external causes women and children have suffered. In and then the internal causes can be left those camps, the women are prone to to the Ugandan Government. all the hazards of war, as providers of food, water, health and all the other Mr Speaker, sir, in trying to solve this gender roles that women play. problem, even on the regional context, we should emphasise peaceful means. Mr Speaker, sir, politicians have used We know that peaceful means were the war in northern Uganda for their used in South Africa, but they almost own selfish ends. It is therefore my failed at the beginning. Even if humble appeal to this Assembly not to peaceful means fail completely on the play into the hands of politicians. If we regional level, if it is necessary that are making a commitment, let us go military means is used at the regional out and make sure we provide a long- level, then let it be! Is that not how the lasting solution. problem in South Africa was solved? Was it because they talked so much, or Mr Speaker, sir, as you may recall, was it because they fought so much President Museveni admitted before us that they talked? So, we should look at that he had not tabled this issue before those when we go into the issues we the Summit. It is my humble are going to handle. submission that he does communicate to the Summit that there is a problem With those remarks, I beg to support in northern Uganda. When we met the Motion. President Kibaki, I did put my request before him, and he promised that he was going to act on it. I trust that Ms Kawamara Mishambi (Uganda): President Kibaki will try to resolve this Mr Speaker, sir, honourable members conflict. know very well the history of our visit to Gulu. I stand to support the Motion, With those remarks, I beg to support and say I feel gratified because of the the Motion. honourable members who mustered courage and visited Gulu. It took us Ms Lydia Wanyoto (Uganda): Mr one and half years to realise and Speaker, sir, I rise to support the

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Motion. And before I make my Having said that, I know that the contributions, I would like to process of the budget for this financial congratulate hon. Kalonzo Musyoka year is on, and the situation does not for having successfully gone through seem to change. So, we envisage the recent political reforms in Kenya, another huge sum of our budget and also for having joined this august allocation to go to this cause. So, I Assembly. would like to thank the mover to this Motion. It means that even us who are This House was honoured to meet hon. sitting in Arusha, our minds are Musyoka as one of those distinguished focused to the North, to have our East Africans one time in Kenya, and contribution in whatever form to end we had a very nice menu at Utalii the war. College. I have no doubt in my mind that the honourable minister will bring This war has hampered progress for even a better menu to this House. I am people of northern Uganda, saying this because I am happy that he specifically on the ground. A child went to Nairobi and came back to this who was born 17 years ago in the House, which is not usual with other North has not benefited from the Members of the Summit. universal primary education programme that Uganda put in place in Hon. Musyoka acts as a bridge 1997,while other children in other between the past and the present parts of the country have benefited. Cabinet of Kenya, which gives us a While we were in Gulu, we were told plus, other than a gap, as a that schools had been built but no child Community. I also remember the was able to go to school. That is a promises he made to us when he serious matter. People are not able to delivered a speech at Utalii College. feed well; they depend on rations, and Now that he is here, I hope hon. Ogalo that is a very serious biological will quote him rightly so that he development in as far their nutritional implements the promises he made, and status is concerned. even add more, now that he is part of us. Our people have missed out a lot on development programmes. Uganda is a Mr Speaker, sir, I would like to country that is funded by donors mention that the government of almost entirely. Over 53% of Uganda’s Uganda has suffered enormously in its budget is donor-supported. Now, on economic sector because of this war the development sector, no donor is that has been going on for the last 17 willing to support development years. In the last financial year, a few programmes in a part of the country days after the budget was passed, that is deemed to be insecure. That Cabinet and Parliament sat and cut the means that those people cannot benefit whole national budget by 23% across from any other social development the board to support the war in the programme like we would have loved North. This is billions of money in a to see in that part of the country. very poor country like Uganda. That shows the commitment of government Another serious issue that they have and all other organs of our country to missed out for the last 17 years is the use everything at their disposal to end recent national housing and population the war in the North. census. This is a very serious exercise; it cost the country over 30 billion

35 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates shillings, but we could not have proper Ms Kate Kamba (Tanzania): Thank statistics from that part of the country you, Mr Speaker, sir, for giving me the because of the insurgency. So, as the Floor. First of all, I would like to nation goes to plan and do a lot of congratulate hon. Daniel Ogalo for things for its people, there is a gap in bringing this Motion to the House. I this part of the country. am so delighted because I am chairing the Committee that falls directly under Needless to mention, in the current this very important Motion. political and democratic reforms that Fortunately, we have been to Gulu, and hon. Marando alluded to, if we do not we have seen the plight of the people support the North to get peace, then in that part of East Africa. they will again miss out on a very important human right issue of My colleagues have said much, and I political reforms that we are calling do support their sentiments with regard upon every Ugandan to be part and to the plight of these people, parcel of. specifically the women and children.

As I conclude, I want to say that the I have been sitting in the Burundi contribution of this House will be seen Peace Process here in Arusha for quite mainly in the eyes of the people of some time, and I have been seeing the Uganda, but also specifically, the regional Heads of State attending to people of the North, as an entry point the problems of that country. I am towards a peaceful resolution. This is happy that now there is peace in because their lives have been under Burundi. That is what we are combative measures for some time. applauding within the region. We have They have seen other initiatives under managed to bring peace to that country the fora of peaceful agenda, but people - (Applause) want to see results. I would like to call upon my colleagues that we support So, when this Motion is being brought this Motion and ensure that this to this House, I think it is high time the Committee delivers. If it is going to be Heads of State within the region like any other peace initiative, our should be humble enough to help the people will be very unhappy with us. people of northern Uganda. By doing so, they will be performing their According to the constitution of rightful duties, which are specified in Uganda, children who were born 17 the Treaty in Articles 1, 2 and 3, as the years have just one year and they turn mover of this Motion has quoted here. 18. And they will be able to vote, they It is within their mandate to find will be adults, old enough to marry and peaceful resolutions of disputes and also to be independent. So, I would conflicts between and within the like us to move very swiftly to look for Partner States. money and persuade this Committee so that they are able to make a difference I agree with hon. Marando’s proposed towards a positive impact to end the amendment to the Motion. The Motion war in the North. is well structured, but when we want to recommend and get the support of the With those remarks, I support the Council of Ministers and the Summit, Motion. we need to put ourselves in a place where we are not going to be misread, because our main intention is to bring

36 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates peace. We do not want to start with as well as in the debate. There are conflict. So, I concur with Marando’s military issues that need resolution, proposed amendment so that we leave both internal and external; there are the Council of Ministers to represent social issues tied up in this whole us ably to the Summit, so that all that question of the conflict as well as has been requested here should be economic issues. When we met with realised. We need to see results, which His Excellency President Museveni in can be achieved if we co-operate with Gulu when we went there earlier this the Summit through the Council of year, we stated many of these things. Ministers. I will not repeat the dimensions, but I know that within the region there are what I will plead with each of us to so many other conflicts, some consider here is that, given the depth of beginning and some are potential. We the suffering of those in the centre of have potential areas of conflict the conflict in the districts mentioned, politically, socially and economically. the length of this conflict and the many So, the Peace Committee that is being initiatives that have been taken by proposed here might find itself trying many people, we should put our hands to sort out a lot of things, for example together on this issue. Let us give it the cattle rustling within the region, ethnic attention it deserves and focus on the conflicts, banditry, small arms and so issues and on the resolution of those forth. So, there are so many issues issues. within the region, which thin down the developments of some parts of region. I believe that the outcome of the recent tour of Uganda illustrates that this With those remarks, I support the House is committed to focusing on Motion. issues. We are demonstrating our ability to rise above pettiness and Ms Ovonji-Odida (Uganda): Thank personal differences. We stand in the you, Mr. Speaker. As I was sitting at way of finding solutions to what seems the back here listening to my like impractical problems but actually colleagues contributing to this Motion, can be solved with the right attitude. I felt like sympathising with the Speaker because we politicians tend to One thing that came out very clearly love to speak for a long time. As I while we were in Gulu is the need to listened, I thought, well that is the role work closely with the local of the Speaker. He is supposed to listen stakeholders. We saw the commitment to us as we speak. So, even though he of the President and the Members of is called “the Speaker”, his job really is the Parliament from the area who took to listen. us right from Kampala and stayed with us there throughout our two-day stay. At the same time, I would like to thank We also met with other stakeholders the mover of the Motion and my not from government, including the colleagues because I think there has bishops, and they give us their views been so much attention to this Motion about how to solve this problem. My and to the debate on it. I believe that is prayer is that as the House takes up recognition of the importance of this this issue, we continue to involve those issue for us as East Africans. There are actors who have worked for all this many dimensions to this issue, and a time and have laid the foundation for lot of them are captured in the Motion where we are today.

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work very hard to resolve the on-going We are one community and it really conflict, and at the same time, this moves me to hear all our colleagues august House should look for ways and reiterate that fact. What disturbs one means of preventing new conflicts part of the Community affects the rest. from developing - (Applause). Even in terms of our budget, we know that Uganda is in arrears to the tune of In Africa, many people suffer because US Dollars 600,000 and it is very many African nations solve their much affected by that war and by the problems through military expenditure. Recognising that we are confrontations and wars by proxy. I one community, I believe this House think that war by proxy is one of the has a responsibility to provide major instruments used by nations leadership so that we can speak with avoiding direct war, but supporting one voice that is representative of the insurgencies in neighbouring countries, interests of the people. Let us or even countries that are far off. I demonstrate to East Africans that think it has been clearly mentioned by political leadership in Africa can be those before me in the wars in southern clean, relevant and issue-driven. Let us Africa, where one guerrilla group is demonstrate to them that the promises supported by many nations. And this is that we made when we were there were evident in this situation. I think we not driven by emotions purely, but we should also look for ways and means are truthful and we shall deliver on our of stopping this support against a commitment. legitimate and elected government.

I would like to request that as we work Some of us have experienced the on this issue, we continue to liaise with difficulties and agonies of the people the different actors, and that the role of of northern Uganda. If I recall, in the the Committee as mentioned by the northern part of our own country, head of the Committee, hon. Kamba, Kenya, during the Shifta War, I should be to keep the Assembly on remember close relatives, friends and board, and to ensure that the Assembly many others who spent many days in works closely with the other organs of the bush for fear of going back to their the Community. We need unity in this homes. I remember the agony of the Community if we are to face the fathers and mothers who were unable challenges and achieve the vision that to provide basic needs for their brought us together as three countries. children because they had been robbed I believe this thinking and I would like of all their properties. They were to support it. driven out of their homes, their livestock driven away, and they had no Lt. Gen. Abdullahi Aden (Kenya): other savings or means to provide for Thank you, Mr. Speaker, sir. I even the basic needs of their families. congratulate hon. Daniel Ogalo for bringing this Motion to this august I assure you, this is a very trying House. It is most appropriate that at moment for a mother with hungry least this House should look for ways children crying for food that she and means of solving the conflict that cannot provide. It is a trying moment has been going on for such a long time for the father whose family is crying to in northern Uganda. The spirit of this him for support but has no means and Motion is to remind us that we need to the capability to defend his family work in two forms: one we should against the attack, or to provide for

38 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates them the basic needs that they are and that he would encourage it. That asking for. gave us the greatest opening to follow up the issue and find ways and means I think that within East Africa, as we of solving the conflict. aspire to be good neighbours to each other, it is about time that we I support the views of hon. Marando demonstrated good neighbourliness that they need an external assistance. through action by helping our They have tried to solve the problem neighbours to overcome the difficulties by using their own local leaders, and the suffering that they are going religious leaders, civil organisations, through. but it was not possible to solve it altogether. I think a neutral area and If I may just mention a few things here, another body like any other member of the people of northern Uganda have the East African Partner States will suffered the effect of this conflict for provide that opportunity to bring them 17 years. It means that for this period, to a negotiating table. So, I believe it is there was a great loss of economic the best time now to request the opportunity, and they could not Summit to look into the possibility of participate in the development of their giving the warring parties an own area. There must be decay in opportunity to come to a negotiating infrastructure, including roads and the table. communication system because nobody will go there and repair them I believe it is difficult for the Head of for fear of attack from the rebel State to admit, even in a subtle way, groups. that this is a problem that the whole nation of Uganda with all its resources They have suffered flight of the able and military might has been unable to and well-educated elite, who probably solve for 17 years. It is sad that we in did not want to suffer the conflict, and the neighbouring countries have stood have gone to safer and better areas. We by quietly for many years without have seen with our own eyes the doing anything, and I think it is time number of schools that have been now for us to go in. closed because of the conflict. We have seen the many families who have Having briefly mentioned the feelings been driven away from their homes and what I believe should be the way and been rendered destitute because forward, I would like to congratulate they can neither farm nor tend to their hon. Marando for suggesting an livestock. I believe that this begs for amendment to paragraphs (a) and (b), immediate assistance. and I think the House should look for ways and means of enabling the One issue that came out clearly during Committee on Regional Affairs and our visit is that in a quiet way, both the Conflict Resolution to be fully government of Uganda, and probably involved, and to enable this Committee the Kony group, are willing to go to to look at both the aspects of conflict the negotiating table. In fact, I recall resolution, prevention and when I asked his Excellency the management. President of Uganda, Yoweri Museveni, if he would be willing to With these remarks, I support the resolve this problem through Motion. negotiation, and his answer was yes,

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Mr Daniel Ogalo (Uganda): Thank we come to the end of the Motion you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Let me begin by before the House? thanking all Members for giving this Motion overwhelming support. I will Mr Mabere Marando (Tanzania): not deal with all their submissions, Mr Speaker, sir, under the relevant neither will attempt to say anything Rule, which provides for this type of more because it was well put, but I Motion, I propose that the House have only one area I want to address, extends its sitting time beyond 6.00 and that is the proposal by hon. p.m. until such a time that it Marando. completely disposes of this Motion.

I want to persuade hon. Marando to (Question put and agreed to) consider, after hearing me, dropping his proposed amendment. Hon. Mr Ogalo: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Marando’s amendment is based on the Sir. What is most important here is thinking that we are giving directives grounded in some of the submissions to the Summit; that we are telling them of members here, and I will quote to form committees, and that it is not some of them. Hon. Kate Kamba said, good manners to go around ordering “We need to see results.” Hon. Ovonji- the Summit. Odida said, “The resolution should be given the attention it deserves.” Hon. Mr Speaker, sir, I as an ordinary man Kawamara said, “Where is the from the shores of Lake Victoria mechanism in case nothing is done?” would not dream of doing so. The So there is a need to take this into resolution on page three reads: “Now account when we are making this therefore do resolve to recommend to resolution. the Council of Minister…” These resolutions are recommendations to the I humbly submit that there must be a Council of Ministers. They can take residual power in the House to follow them or refuse them. It is not a this up. There must be a time when we directive. What the House is saying is can ask what happened. That is why that this is our thinking; consider it. the resolution requires that those three We are simply saying that we think members appointed by the Speaker there should be a committee of two would need, in two months time, to people from each country, three come back to the House and inform it members from the Assembly should what the position is – (Interjection). join them, and they should be allowed to negotiate for peace. If the Council of Mr Jared Kangwana (Kenya): Mr. Ministers sees sense in that, they will Speaker, sir, I rise to seek clarification. take it. If they think there is no sense in The mover of the Motion is dealing it, they will drop it. with a proposed amendment in detail, yet we have not, as a House, seen that Honourable members, I do not intend amendment. So, I am seeking for the and I do not think the Motion directs or guidance of the Chair. orders the Summit around. But most important – (Interruption)- The Speaker: The amendment has not The Speaker: Order, hon. Ogalo. been formally presented, and I believe Could I ask one of the members to the honourable member should be brief propose that we extend the time and and move to other items because you continue with our deliberations until have taken too long on this matter.

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‘northern’, and delete the ‘the last’ Mr Ogalo: Thank you, Mr Speaker, between the words ‘for’ and sir, for your wise ruling. I was actually ‘seventeen’ and replace with the words responding to the debate of hon. ‘more than’ in the fifth paragraph. Marando. When the amendment comes, I will then deal with it – (Question on the amendment (Laughter). proposed)

In summing up on this, we need to be Capt. Ddudu: Mr Speaker, sir, in my able to keep a residual power, which opinion, it is more than 17 years, enables us not to let this thing die out. taking into account the origin of it. If we do not have any control over it thereafter, then if it is forgotten it is Ms Kawamara-Mishambi: Mr forgotten. That is why I was Speaker, sir, I think the war in northern encouraging hon. Marando not to Uganda, if we are being honest, started move his amendment. right after the toppling of Idi Amin. So, I think let us go by the facts. So, it is Mr Speaker, sir, I also want to express for more than 17 years. my appreciation on my own behalf and on behalf of the Ugandan members to (Question on the amendment put and our colleagues from Kenya and agreed to) Tanzania for the trip they undertook to Gulu by road. I would also wish to Mr Mabere Marando: Mr Speaker, bring to the attention of the House that sir, I beg to move that the Motion be while I and hon. Kanyomozi were at amended as follows; That_ Entebbe International Airport, the bishops met us and asked how far we The resolutions are changed to read as had gone, and we informed them that follows: we were actually on our way here to do something about it, and make sure that (a) The Council of Ministers something would come out of our makes representations to the promises. Summit that it considers setting up an East African Peace Lastly, Uganda as a country has done Committee for Uganda to work all that it could do, and it is now time for the quick and amicable to give peace a chance through the resolution of the suffering of region. the people of northern Uganda. (b) That as promised to His The Speaker: Honourable members, I Excellency President Yoweri am just about to put the question on Museveni while the members this Motion. But before I do that, can I were in Gulu, this Assembly is ask whether any member has any at the disposal of the Summit amendments? for inclusion and participation in the proposed East African Mr Ochieng-Mbeo: Mr Speaker, sir, I Peace Committee for Uganda. beg to move that the Motion be (c) The Council of Ministers do amended as follows; That_ report back to this Assembly on Delete the words ‘the above mentioned the progress made within three three districts’ between the words ‘in’ months of the passing of this and ‘of’ and replace with the word resolution.

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Rules be brought back to the House for Mr Speaker, sir, as you will see, it is Members as soon as possible. my humble opinion that the proposed amendments are inclusive of all the In seconding the amendment, I would proposed resolutions appearing in the like, first of all, to reiterate with last page. While hon. Ogalo was humility, sincerity and honesty, the replying to the debate in a rather points that hon. Marando touched on in combative manner, he usefully proposing the amendment. suggested the need for residual powers for this House to follow up on the Looking at the resolutions as drafted resolution. That triggered one of the by the mover, it is obvious that this is members to propose the third going to impose a financial cost on the amendment that the Council of Community, and I believe no money Ministers does report to this House on has been provided for this kind of the progress of this resolution. This is activity. Without going into provisions more so because the members of the of the Treaty, there is a duty imposed Council of Ministers are members of on the House to observe the provisions this House, and we can easily call upon of the Treaty in so far as imposition of them to report back to us and give expenses is concerned, when it comes account of what they have done. So, it to Bills and Motions. Therefore, effectively takes care of the without funds, it would be very suggestions made by hon. Ogalo about difficult for this House to undertake the residual powers. this mission. On that point, I would like to propose that the Mover accepts In conclusion – (Interruption and the proposed amendment. Applause) - (The Chairman of the Council of Ministers, Hon. James Secondly, although we are not Wapakhabulo, entered the Chamber) directing the Summit to act in a certain way, the way the resolutions are Mr Mabere Marando: Mr Speaker, proposed do call into issue the question sir, I cannot comment on the subject of of sovereignty of Partner States. I think that interruption because it is not this House has to be sensitive to that within my mandate - (Laughter.) very important matter. We should be seen to be conducting our affairs, not I was concluding by saying that we only in a mature way, but also in the think that this is adding decorum to the full realisation of what this House can process of work we are trying to do so do and what it cannot do. that we bring the Summit fully on board with what we are doing, I would suggest, most respectfully, that considering the very seriousness of the we phrase the amendment as it has undertaking. been done by hon. Marando in such a way that the House expresses, not only Mr Kangwana: Mr Speaker, sir, I rise what it saw in northern Uganda, but to second the amendment. Because also demonstrate, through the wording Members have not been availed the of the Motion, how they felt. That has new Rules, you can see the confusion been done. But at the same time, we in which the House is as far as the need to also request the powers that be, Rules are concerned,. We urge the in a way that recognises their role, Clerk, through the Chair, that those their position in society and the amendments that were made to the sovereignty of States.

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Speaker, sir. I take it that the matter of With those remarks, I beg to second the amendment, having being proposed the amendment. and seconded, is now the subject of debate. Mr Mwatela: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. May I thank hon. May I, first of all, thank those Marando for his spirited efforts to honourable members who took it upon suggest amendments to the themselves to say some kind words resolutions? May I also thank hon. about me? I will indeed endeavour to Kangwana for his spirited efforts to be a faithful member of this Assembly support that amendment? as I swore to, amongst other things, uphold the Treaty. I think we have missed the point here. This Motion is resolving to Mr Speaker, sir, I have been listening recommend. We are not ordering to this debate and what I have to say anybody. We have only recommended! here may surprise some members. It is That automatically means that the indeed true that I have been involved Council of Ministers may choose not fairly deeply in trying to resolve some to keep to the recommendations. That of the conflicts in our sub-region. is what it is. It is a recommendation. After I left Arusha last week, I had the I do not understand how a opportunity to visit the neighbouring recommendation, which the Council of country to Uganda, which has no direct Ministers have a right to take or reject, boundary to Kenya, of Rwanda. One of is interpreted to mean that we are the things I did, if Members will imposing a charge on the Community’s forgive me, is that I had a visit with the funds. Indeed, almost all the Motions mountain gorillas in Ruhengeri we have passed here, if that is the National Park on the other side of interpretation, would have failed - Uganda. While there, I was face to face (Applause). with the reality of the conflict in the Democratic Republic of the Congo The Council of Ministers has been ably (DRC). I took the opportunity to represented in this House from the compare notes with my colleagues who beginning up to now. They have not had invited me there for a Joint raised any objection to this Motion up Ministerial Commission. Of course, I to now - (Applause). was able to know that there are certain tensions, and I want to congratulate my This means the Council is fully brother, hon. James Wapakhabulo satisfied with this proposition. I do not here, because I know he has worked think we should do any amendment to very hard to reduce the tension this resolution. The Council between Kampala and Kigali - understands its role. I think their (Applause). silence says they have accepted our As you all know, we are busy with the proposal. With those remarks, I object Somali conflict. Right now the most strongly, to any amendment to reconciliation process is underway at this Motion. Mbagathi in Nairobi. The Sudanese conflict is also getting attended to in Mr Kalonzo Musyoka (Member of the town of Machakos, in Kenya. We the Council of Ministers are very optimistic that there is (Kenya)(Ex-Officio): Thank you, Mr. progress being made, both on the

43 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates

Sudanese conflict as well as the Somali I want to say that in fact, this could be conflict. a test case on the relevance or otherwise of this Assembly. That we But even as I think about this, I am are seen to drag our feet, and to sound indeed very encouraged that East very diplomatic, we do not want to Africa has come together again. I said cause annoyance to the Council of that when I made my maiden remarks. Ministers and to the Summit - I want to firmly place it on record that (Applause) as the saying goes charity begins at home - (Applause). Mr Speaker, sir, in my considered view, the days when East Africans We cannot, in all sincerity, be seen to could just be curled is gone. If we are be honest with ourselves if we can serious about governance issues and pretend to resolve conflicts from transparency… indeed, I wanted to go without the Community while there are beyond hon. Ogalo’s recommendation some parts of the Community that are and add that this Assembly comes up hurting, and we are oblivious to that with an East African Committee on fact. Therefore, I want to congratulate peace, not just for Uganda - hon. Ogalo for this Motion - (Applause). (Applause). I am saying this so that we can have a I also want to congratulate the mover legislative committee of this Assembly of the amendment for being a little bit on peace everywhere in our three more diplomatic than I am, and more countries. So, if it is the cattle rustling importantly, I want to congratulate issue in northern Kenya or wherever, at President Museveni for being very least we know that the Members of the open about this matter - (Applause). East African Legislative Assembly and they are firm, they should be able to Mr Speaker, sir, this Assembly is an tell the Heads of State that much as we East African Assembly. I want to stress respect your sovereignty, we are here that because, unless this Assembly for you East Africans. And I think this rises to the occasion and asserts its is very important - (Applause). presence within the Community, then nobody will take it seriously - As a test case, we could begin with this (Applause). matter where President Museveni has graciously opened up and said, “Let I therefore want to sound a little less me see whether you can play your diplomatic. You see, this matter could role.” We cannot afford to see those not have come to the Kenyan National children waste their childhood. One Assembly because of the reasons of Member just mentioned that children sovereignty that hon. Kangwana has who were born at the time this alluded to. It could not come to Kenya, insurgency started are now old enough and neither could it go to Dodoma. In to get married, and they never went to Uganda, it was receiving a different school! They have lost a lifetime dimension. A resolution of force, and it opportunity. How do we begin to help has taken this long. Therefore, the them? wisdom of this matter coming from the East African Assembly becomes rather The churches were crying out there obvious - (Applause). and the bishops want to hear what this Assembly is able to do. I think we

44 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates could even mobilise so that we go out to urge the Assembly to feel there with some measure of help in emboldened because East Africans addition to trying to resolve the take this Assembly very seriously. But conflict. I understand one member if we are not certain whether we are wept there because of what she saw. I going to cause annoyance or whether think that should be addressed by this we are all going to get sacked, I think Assembly. A humanitarian approach to we will not be making progress - the conflict is one way of looking at it. (Applause).

Mr Speaker, sir, I wanted to say that Having said that, I am not quite sure words like “the Council of Ministers whether to support the amendment or makes representations…” you are even indeed go by the earlier resolution. I cowing the Council itself. You cannot think the original resolution looks even make a recommendation; you are okay, but even this other one is easier. just supposed to go there and when But perhaps we could come up with a their Excellencies are having their cup firm recommendation, reduce it from of tea, we try to make certain ‘representation’ to ‘recommendation’ representations. We are not serious! and the Council to report, perhaps, (Applause) within one month. We are hoping that the Summit will meet soon after our I think the Assembly should call on the meeting of 29th. I think this matter is Council to make recommendations to serious, and since you raised it with the Summit because ‘representations’ President Museveni, I think it is only is not quite sure. This is what I feel. I fair that we move forward - also think that three months is a very (Applause). long time for the Council to take so as to report back to the Assembly on this The Chairman of the Council of matter, considering that people are Ministers (Mr James Wapakhabulo) actually dying and we want to make a (Ex-Officio): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, difference - (Applause). Sir. If I were to say only three or four words in respect of the speech given by However, what I think is more my colleague, the words would have challenging, and I think this is what been “I have nothing useful to add ” - hon. Ogalo and hon. Marando should (Laughter). be able to tell us, is the level of intervention. I can take the example of However, let me say, just in addition, the Sudanese and the Somali peace that the question of the conflict in initiatives. In the Somali peace northern Uganda has received attention process, we have a technical in the Parliament of Uganda. Hon. committee led by an ambassador, in Ogalo was there and so were other this case Ambassador Bethwel members who are here. We have had it Kiplagat. If we have a committee of discussed at various levels, by church ten people, what is the point of groups, social groups, but it has not engagement? At what point do we talk been articulated in East Africa because to the Lord’s Resistance Army or it always remained a Ugandan whoever? Is it that we take two or problem, and a northern Ugandan three people? I think we need to define problem. that and this can be done when the Heads of State will have given their Members of the Parliament of Uganda, go-ahead on this matter. But I wanted hon. Kaggwa will testify to this, did

45 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates appoint a Committee. The Sixth run for 17 years; we have tried to Parliament did appoint a Committee. resolve it as Ugandans and, in fact, as They carried out a lot of work out of we speak now, it is discussed in other which came a proposal for an amnesty forum other than East Africa. Why legislation, which has been given. So, should Olara Otunnu go to Geneva and there have been attempts. But now, say I would like the matter of Uganda given that this is an East African to be discussed so that a Rappotuer is Assembly, this House can validly look appointed? into this matter. This is because here, the question of sovereignty does not You see, this issue of a Rappotuer arise as clearly stated - (Applause). under the UN System, they appoint a fellow and tell him to come with a It is a question of East Africans report every year. The unfortunate identifying a problem in one State and thing about the UN is that that saying “can we also try our hand at it becomes a full-time job forever and it in addition to the efforts already being never ends and they would not want undertaken?” That, to me, should not, the crisis to end. But instead of going as my colleague said, be prefaced by to Geneva to get the UN Secretary apologetic language - (Applause). General to appoint a special representative on northern Uganda, we We should state the problem and look do it as an East African institution, and for a solution, which in my view we say we identified a problem here should be a statement addressed to the and resolve it as East Africans. Summit through the Council so that the (Applause) Summit can now be caused to discuss the matter. For us as Council of But in this context, I would like to go Ministers, we would say that at its the same way as my colleague here. meeting, the Assembly resolved as Maybe let us not call it a peace follows and, therefore, your committee on Northern Uganda; let us Excellencies, in your wisdom, you may make it a committee of this Assembly wish to address this matter in the on peacemaking and conflict manner you consider appropriate. They resolution. For example, we could give may say the Committee should go the similar existing Committee of the ahead and be strengthened or assisted House the mandate to report to us in a manner that the Council may also, about the situation in Northern by way of a recommendation, make to Uganda, and to try to bring parties the Summit. together. I may be wrong in this, but it is something you can look at. My view is that we should start with a Committee of the House, and because As the minister said, then we have a of the costs involved it should be a mechanism everywhere and attend to small one, which would then be able to any conflict in East Africa. If it is the carry out the mandate on behalf of this problem of the Uganda-Kenya border, House. For us as Members of the of the Pokot versus the Sebei and all Council, we would carry that message the rest, we may want to go there and to the Summit. see what the conflict is all about. It may be historical, but what can we do? So, I just wanted to clarify that there is Maybe we could broaden it. But nothing we should fear. We have a anyway, my view here is that, I support problem in northern Uganda that has fully what my colleague said, and I

46 Tuesday, 20 may 2003 East African Legislative Assembly Debates will end there and leave it to the Chair ADJOURNMENT and Members of the House to proceed the way you see fit - (Applause). The Speaker: Honourable members, it is now time for the interruption of The Speaker: Honourable members, business. The House is adjourned until this debate has to come to an end now. tomorrow at 9.00 a.m. However, since it is getting late, can I ask the following three members, hon. (The House rose at 6.45 p.m. and Ogalo, hon. Kaggwa and hon. adjourned until Thursday, 21 May) Marando, to sit down, after having listened to all the ideas, and come up with a an agreeable position to all of us tomorrow morning, considering the points made.

A Hon. Member: Mr Speaker, sir, you did not consider the gender issue.

The Speaker: Order, honourable members. The House does not work along those lines - (Laughter). Hon. Ogalo is the mover of this Motion, and the other two Members have brought up the amendments that led to further amendments. So, I think the three members should be enough to bring us a comprised position tomorrow morning – (interjection).

The Secretary General (Mr Amanya Mushega) (Ex-officio): Mr. Speaker, Sir. I just wanted to point out that this very House was actually elected on the basis of gender, and in fact the issue of gender delayed the Assembly from being launched in time because of the controversy it raised in Kenya - (Laughter).

The Speaker: I have taken note of your point - (Laughter).

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