LOWER CHURCHILL HYDROELECTRIC GENERATION PROJECT JOINT REVIEW PANEL
PROJET DE CENTRALE DE PRODUCTION D’ÉNERGIE HYDROÉLECTRIQUE DANS LA PARTIE INFÉRIEURE DU FLEUVE CHURCHILL COMMISSION D’EXAMEN CONJOINT
CANADIAN ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT REGISTRY 07-05-26178 REGISTRE CANADIEN D’ÉVALUATION ENVIRONNEMENTALE 07-05-26178
HEARING HELD AT
Hearing Room - Salle d'audience Carrefour La Baie 391 Avenue Brochu Sept-Îles, QC G4R 2W6
Friday, April 8, 2011
Volume 31
JOINT REVIEW PANEL
Mr. Herbert Clarke Ms. Lesley Griffiths Ms. Catherine Jong Dr. Meinhard Doelle Mr. James Igloliorte
International Reporting Inc. 41-5450 Canotek Road Ottawa, Ontario K1J 9G2 www.irri.net 1-800-899-0006
(ii)
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES
PAGE
Opening Remarks 1
Presentation from Nalcor by Mr. Burlingame 9
Presentation by the Naskapi Nation of Kawawachikamach 21
Questions by the panel 31
Presentation from Nalcor by Mr. Burlingame 85
Présentation par la nation Innu Matimekush-Lac John par M. McKenzie 96
Questions by the panel 153
Questions by the proponent 191
1
1 Sept-Îles, Québec
2
3 --- Upon commencing at 9:09 a.m./
4 L’audience est debute à 9h09
5 --- OPENING REMARKS:
6 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Good
7 morning, ladies and gentlemen.
8 I think we’re now ready that we
9 can begin this morning’s session, this community
10 hearing for the community of Kawawachikamach.
11 My name is Lesley Griffiths. I am
12 one of the two Co-Chairs of the panel. On my left
13 is my fellow Co-Chair Herb Clarke. Next to Herb is
14 Meinhard Doelle. On my right is Jim Igloliorte,
15 and on Jim’s right is Cathy Jong.
16 We’re very pleased to be here in
17 Sept-Îles and to welcome you to this community
18 session.
19 Supporting the work of the panel
20 we have a number of Secretariat members who are
21 identified by a gold badge they’re wearing with
22 their names. If you have any questions about the
23 process please feel free to talk to them. They’re
24 there to help you.
25 I just want to say a few opening
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1 remarks. Following that we may have a few
2 housekeeping items. And then we will move onto an
3 overview of the project and some remarks by the
4 Proponent.
5 Then I would like to invite all of
6 our presenters this morning to come forward to the
7 table and we can proceed as you wish. Either you
8 may wish to ask some questions of the Proponent at
9 that point or you may wish to move on to your
10 presentation. Obviously we can be very flexible
11 about what we do with the morning.
12 I’m sure the panel will have some
13 questions for you and the Proponent as well, so we
14 will work out what is best.
15 So I just want to say a few things
16 about the panel and our job that we have. We were
17 created -- we were appointed in January of 2009,
18 jointly appointed by the Government of Canada and
19 the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador.
20 Our mandate is to conduct an
21 independent and impartial review of Nalcor Energy’s
22 proposed Lower Churchill Hydroelectric Generation
23 Project.
24 We went through the two year
25 process of receiving information from a wide range
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1 of participants, including communities here in
2 Quebec, and the panel prepared a number of
3 information requests for Nalcor.
4 Once all of the information had
5 been received back from Nalcor, response to those
6 requests, the panel determined that we had enough
7 information to move forward to hearings and this is
8 where we are.
9 Our Terms of Reference have given
10 us 45 days to carry out the hearings. We began
11 March the 3rd. We will be finishing next Friday on
12 April the 15th.
13 We obviously want to hear from
14 participants their views about the potential
15 effects of the proposed project of a wide range of
16 factors in the biophysical and in the socioeconomic
17 environment.
18 But we also have a mandate to
19 address two areas relating specifically to
20 Aboriginal persons and communities and I will just
21 address those quickly here.
22 Firstly, we’re required to invite
23 information related to the nature and scope of
24 potential or established Aboriginal rights or title
25 in the area of the proposed project, and also
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1 information on the potential adverse impacts or
2 potential infringement that the proposed project
3 could have on those asserted or established
4 Aboriginal rights or title.
5 We will be including that
6 information in our report, however, we have no
7 mandate to make any determinations or
8 interpretations regarding the validity or strength
9 of any Aboriginal group’s claim to rights and title
10 or treaty rights, nor will we be making findings
11 regarding the scope or nature of the Crown’s duty
12 to consult, and the third factor, whether either
13 Canada or Newfoundland and Labrador have met their
14 respective duties to consult or accommodate.
15 So those are the areas we report
16 what you tell us, we don’t make findings, and
17 that’s in our mandate.
18 However, the secondary, where we
19 do have a mandate to make findings and to make
20 recommendations is with respect to the current use
21 of land and resources, including aquatic resources
22 by Aboriginal persons for traditional purposes.
23 So we are very interested in
24 hearing from you about that area of information.
25 As I say, we can make findings, we can make
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1 recommendations.
2 After the hearings are completed
3 we have 90 days to complete our report and the
4 report will have a summary of what we’ve heard and
5 also are the panel’s conclusions and the panel’s
6 recommendations.
7 We give that report to the Federal
8 Minister of Environment and the Minister of
9 Environment and Conservation for the Province of
10 Newfoundland and Labrador. The two Ministers will
11 make the report public.
12 I must emphasize that we have an
13 advisory role. We are not the decision makers in
14 this instance. It will be government that makes
15 the decisions on the project. However, we have --
16 positive experience has shown the panel reports
17 have been taken very seriously.
18 I’d just like to draw your
19 attention to the fact that we finish out the
20 hearings with two days set aside for closing
21 remarks on April the 14th and 15th. We’ve recently
22 issued some procedures for these sessions that you
23 can find on the registry website. If you intend to
24 make closing remarks I suggest you can find more
25 information about that if you’re going to register
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1 to make closing remarks the deadline is April the
2 10th so it’s kind of coming up.
3 So, as I said before, in a moment
4 I will ask the Proponent to make their presentation
5 about the project and then I will invite you to
6 come forward.
7 Just before we do that, I believe
8 that the Proponent -- I’m going to ask the
9 Proponent if they have any housekeeping matters to
10 deal with.
11 MR. G. BENNETT: Thank you, Madam
12 Co-Chair.
13 Yes, I do have a couple of items
14 before I turn over to Mr. Burlingame for this
15 morning’s presentation.
16 We have three outstanding
17 undertakings. I just wanted to review those
18 quickly with the panel.
19 The first one that I’d like to
20 talk about is Undertaking 94, which was in respect
21 of the transmission of power to coastal
22 communities, and there were two aspects to that
23 question.
24 The first one was a discussion on
25 the merits of having AC and DC transmission lines
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1 on the same structure. So we have a brief note put
2 together. We’ll be filing that with the
3 Secretariat some time today.
4 The second question spoke to the
5 cost of transmission in the coastal communities.
6 And this was formally looked at by the Public
7 Utilities Board in Hydro’s 2001 General Rate
8 Application and at that time the cost of the
9 transmission facilities was in the order of $300
10 million. It was greater than $300 million. Now
11 since then we’ve got escalation and commodity and
12 labour.
13 But the other thing, of course,
14 that’s interesting right now is that Vale has
15 expressed interest in having an interconnection to
16 their mine at Voisey’s Bay, so that’s certainly a
17 new dimension that’s into this process now.
18 And from what I understand from
19 messages from back home and things being reported
20 in the media, that there is a renewed interest in
21 this interconnection question and certainly Hydro
22 will be taking that on within their regulatory
23 regime and I suspect they’re going to be reporting
24 back to either government or the Public Utilities
25 Board on updates to those costs with that new
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1 demand information as it comes forward with Vale
2 and so on.
3 Another question I guess was the
4 fish assemblage work, and I guess there are a
5 couple of points there. We have filed a report
6 with the Secretariat, and of course this is a
7 presentation that we’re going to bring forward on
8 the April 13th session.
9 One thing that I would like to
10 point out is there was some discussion about Grand
11 Lake saltwater intrusion and those issues in our
12 Northwest River session. And I just wanted to let
13 the panel know that we’ve taken a look at that
14 issue and that’s something that we would be
15 prepared to discuss further both with the community
16 and DFO. And certainly, you know, we wouldn’t
17 object to a recommendation from the panel to
18 further pursue and investigate the merit of doing
19 something on Northwest River or Grand Lake as part
20 of our fish compensation program.
21 So I just wanted to leave that
22 with the panel as a thought from our side.
23 And the third point was the letter
24 from the Helios Centre, and we will be in a
25 position to file some further detail on the
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1 contents of that letter and the response to the --
2 I guess the request for more detail and actually a
3 spreadsheet that will provide some more insight in
4 those graphs. We’ll have that for Monday, if
5 that’s acceptable.
6 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Thank you
7 very much, Mr. Bennett, for those items.
8 MR. G. BENNETT: With that I’ll
9 turn to Mr. Burlingame for this morning’s
10 presentation.
11 --- PRESENTATION BY NALCOR ENERGY BY MR.
12 BURLINGAME:
13 MR. BURLINGAME: Good morning.
14 Good morning to the representatives from
15 Kawawachikamach as well.
16 We have been into your community
17 and we were graciously welcomed and I would like to
18 acknowledge that.
19 Perhaps I’ll introduce the people
20 at this table and then I’ll give a short
21 presentation. I believe you’re familiar with the
22 material so I will go over it at a very high level
23 and then we can get to the main reason we’re here
24 and that’s for the panel to hear from the
25 representatives of the community.
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1 Mr. Gilbert Bennett is the Vice-
2 President of the Lower Churchill project, as he’s
3 identified. Mr. Jim McCarthy is our fish
4 assemblage and fisheries biologist who’s done
5 extensive work throughout the Lower Churchill
6 watershed.
7 We normally have a caribou expert,
8 Mr. Perry Trimper. Unfortunately he won’t be here
9 today because he had a family emergency. However,
10 we do recognize caribou are a significant issue and
11 we will endeavour to try and respond to any
12 questions you might have in that regard.
13 And we have Martin Coté here
14 beside us who has helped us with some of our
15 engagement with some of the Aboriginal communities
16 here in Quebec.
17 We have other members of the team
18 behind us, and again, if there are questions at the
19 break or during the proceedings we’ll be happy to
20 respond to them. And there’s a couple of models in
21 the back there that show before and afters which
22 might be of interest and we’d be happy to explain
23 if there’s any questions on those.
24 Could we have the next slide
25 please?
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1 Very briefly, again, if I’m going
2 too quickly please indicate so and I will pause,
3 but I believe you’re familiar with much of this
4 material.
5 We’ll talk about who Nalcor is,
6 what the project is, what our engagement has been
7 thus far, some of the issues we heard and then
8 conclude.
9 Could we have the next slide
10 please?
11 Nalcor Energy has five lines of
12 business. The Lower Churchill project is one of
13 those five lines, with Mr. Bennett as the Vice-
14 President. The other lines of business have vice-
15 presidents that report in to Mr. Ed Martin, who is
16 the Chief Executive Officer of the company. And
17 this company is about two years old.
18 Could I have the next slide?
19 Now, I’ve got to go back to this.
20 The project is an important one
21 for the residents of Newfoundland and Labrador and
22 it is the intent or the purpose that is seen for
23 the development of this proposed project is to
24 provide a long-term source of energy for the people
25 to meet the demands within the province and to be
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1 able to sell excess into an export market.
2 We believe if done properly it can
3 be a clean project, and we do know there will be
4 effects and we have offered or suggested mitigation
5 measures to try and ensure that those effects are
6 minimized.
7 Can we go to the next slide
8 please?
9 This is a map I don’t need to
10 explain to anyone in this room, and it does show
11 the location of the proposed impoundment and dams,
12 Muskrat Falls, closer to Happy Valley-Goose Bay and
13 Gull Island upstream.
14 The reservoirs themselves, if
15 built, would flood an area of about five percent of
16 what was flooded when the Churchill Falls facility
17 was created, and the power from both of these would
18 equal about 50 percent.
19 Because it’s a steep valley,
20 there’s not a lot of storage in these reservoirs,
21 so once they’re filled up -- and for Gull Island I
22 think it’s about 50 days, is it, and for Muskrat
23 we’re talking a considerably less period of time to
24 fill up the reservoir, from 15 to 20 days. So once
25 it’s filled up, because there isn’t a lot of
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1 storage capacity, basically the water that runs in
2 would be the water that runs out. So no rivers are
3 being diverted or proposed to be diverted into
4 this.
5 That’s just to try and give you a
6 little context on the scale of the project.
7 We can go to the next slide.
8 There’s a close-up with some
9 pictures. I prefer to talk about the technicality
10 aspects around that model but if you have questions
11 we’re happy to field them now.
12 Next slide.
13 Again, an artist’s rendition of
14 what the Muskrat Falls facility would look like and
15 the changes which would result from that
16 impoundment, and the next slide shows Gull Island.
17 I’ll get my notes organized here.
18 With respect to our engagement, as
19 you know, the guidelines initially outlined the
20 communities, Kawawachikamach identified themselves
21 after the process was initiated, and subsequently
22 we provided information to the community in Naskapi
23 language as well.
24 We didn’t offer any consultation
25 agreements with your community and we recognize
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1 that’s an issue. However, we are committed to
2 continue to engage and discuss and it’s very
3 important to hear what you have to say here during
4 these proceedings as well. It’s certainly what the
5 panel’s looking for.
6 Can we go to the next slide?
7 In general, these are the main
8 issues that we’ve heard from most of the
9 communities. But what I’d like to do -- and I’ve
10 got one slide for each. Again, if you wish, we can
11 go through each slide in more detail, but what I
12 propose to do is we’ll just pause on them briefly
13 and then I would like to talk very quickly about
14 some of the specific concerns we heard from your
15 community.
16 Can we go to the next slide?
17 Obviously wildlife, caribou,
18 beaver we heard from Kawawachikamach as well, one
19 individual said, from your community, that there
20 was a significant effect on the beaver when the
21 Churchill Falls facility was created, and we were
22 encouraged to look at and ensuring measures were
23 taken to make sure that those issues didn’t arise
24 again.
25 Nalcor sat on the caribou recovery
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1 team and will continue to do so in an effort to be
2 informed and be able to respond to issues that may
3 arise to affect the caribou if the project
4 proceeds.
5 Next slide please.
6 Regarding fish, it’s no secret and
7 no surprise that if you build a hydro development
8 there is going to be mercury accumulation in fish.
9 We’ve seen that in the reservoirs throughout
10 Canada, around the world. It’s something that Mr.
11 McCarthy certainly can speak to at great detail.
12 But the mitigation measures that
13 are currently used with other hydro developments
14 are ones that certainly we’ve identified and are
15 suggesting be employed to protect human health, but
16 as well, we also think that an early sampling
17 baseline program, which is one that we’ve just
18 commenced on seals, which for some reason are
19 included under the Fisheries Act as fish, be
20 undertaken, and that’s something we’ve initiated
21 very recently.
22 Let’s go to the next slide please.
23 Vegetation, a lot of work’s been
24 done in the river valley and the Churchill River
25 Valley is unique in that region. Some of the
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1 plants are special importance to the Innu people.
2 The Canada Yew is one, and one of the commitments
3 that Nalcor has made is to relocate that plant, if
4 the project is built, to areas and then follow-up
5 to ensure that it works, right, it’s not just a
6 simple matter of digging up the plant and sticking
7 it in the ground, we’d have to be much more
8 comprehensive in our approach.
9 Let’s go to the next slide please.
10 Water quality and mercury, we’ve
11 heard a lot about that. Again, I touched on that
12 when we were talking about fish. It will occur.
13 There are some things we can do to try and minimize
14 that occurrence but realistically what is going to
15 be very important for us is to ensure that
16 protection of the human environment, and the
17 animals and fish, is accomplished by monitoring,
18 posting consumption advisories and making sure that
19 diligence is undertaken until the reservoirs return
20 back to background levels. And we’re thinking
21 about I think -- Jim -- 30 years for that to occur.
22 Could I have the next slide
23 please?
24 Traditional lifestyle and culture
25 and the effects of a major development like this is
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1 something again it’s been a consistent theme. Our
2 studies and our planning that we’ve undertaken, and
3 the effects, for example, on caribou, we’ve
4 concluded -- and not everyone’s agreed, but we
5 certainly believe that if done properly the
6 traditional lifestyle activities that are currently
7 undertaken by the Aboriginal people can continue at
8 the existing level.
9 We would ensure, if this project’s
10 developed, that access to the reservoirs would be
11 maintained. As well, from our analysis and
12 because, as I mentioned before, these reservoirs
13 don’t have a lot of storage capacity, in other
14 words, they don’t ramp up and down significantly
15 compared to other reservoirs, that travel over the
16 ice in the winter by snowmobile or snowshoe, dog
17 team would be preserved and safe and that
18 navigation in the summertime over the reservoirs
19 would still be allowed, including portages.
20 Right now there’s portages around
21 the areas of Gull Island and Muskrat Falls in
22 particular, and those would be re-established if
23 the project’s built, to allow people to continue to
24 transit up and down the river.
25 Next slide please.
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1 Archaeological studies and
2 archaeological evidence has been subject to
3 previous discussions throughout the course of these
4 hearings. A significant amount of work has been
5 done and much of it with the assistance and
6 direction from the Innu Nation on the programs.
7 Should the project go ahead, known sites would be
8 fully excavated prior to any disturbance.
9 Could I go to the next slide
10 please?
11 Before I go there I just wanted to
12 touch on some of the specific issues that we heard
13 from Kawawachikamach.
14 Again, as I mentioned, we heard
15 that the health and effects on caribou are a very
16 significant concern for the community. The beavers
17 I mentioned as well is something that our folks
18 heard directly from the community in a session that
19 was held there.
20 Some of the other things which
21 we’ve identified is that mitigation measures be
22 implemented rigorously and fully. You have
23 experience with hydro developments for a very long
24 period of time, and probably you have born witness
25 to a lot of things which have worked and which
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1 haven’t in the past.
2 A strict monitoring program was
3 another concern or statement of requirement that we
4 heard from your community.
5 You also said that you believed
6 you should be consulted at the same level as the
7 Innu of Natuashish as you share the same
8 traditional territory.
9 And you also stated that you feel
10 that a consultation agreement should have been
11 offered, which, as I sated before, we have not
12 done.
13 So now I’m going to move on from
14 the concerns and the consultation to just a couple
15 of facts about the business aspect or the dollars
16 and cents of the project. It’s about a $6 billion
17 project that is being proposed, with employment
18 around 2,000 persons.
19 Mr. Bennett can talk to a little
20 bit about the processes that are being proposed to
21 ensure opportunities for employment, contracting
22 and training.
23 Let’s go to the last slide I have
24 here.
25 We believe -- Nalcor, and we as
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1 individuals on this team believe that this is a
2 good project and it’s in the best interest of the
3 people of Newfoundland and Labrador, if done
4 properly, and we believe we can do that.
5 The long-term energy supply and
6 the potential for generating revenue will have a
7 long-term positive effect for future generations.
8 Nalcor is committed to ensuring
9 that mitigation and follow-up and monitoring is
10 conducted. So if we make predictions, that’s what
11 they are at this stage, they are predictions. So
12 when you make a prediction and then you go forward
13 through construction you need to ensure that those
14 predictions are correct and if they aren’t you need
15 to be able to respond early and rapidly to ensure
16 that mitigative measures are adapted to and changed
17 to minimize the negative effects.
18 Should the project proceed, Nalcor
19 is committed to continuing engagement and
20 discussions, and that would happen not just through
21 construction but on into the operation of the
22 facility.
23 So that’s all I have to say.
24 I’ll turn it back over to the
25 Chair.
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1 Thank you.
2 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Thank you
3 very much for your presentation, Mr. Burlingame.
4 I would like to now welcome the
5 Naskapi Nation of Kawawachikamach and invite Chief
6 Louis Einish, Mr. John Mameamskum and Monsieur
7 Robert Provost, if you would like to come forward
8 to the presenter’s table.
9 We’re very pleased that you have
10 come today to present to the panel. We really
11 appreciate this. And we’d like to ask you how you
12 would best like to proceed. Would you like to
13 begin with your presentations? Do you have
14 questions for Nalcor? However you would like to
15 proceed.
16 -- PRESENTATION BY THE NASKAPI NATION OF
17 KAWAWACHIKAMACH:
18 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: First of all,
19 we’d like to welcome the panel to Quebec.
20 I’d like to introduce you to Chief
21 Louis Einish.
22 My name is John Mameamskum. I’m
23 the Director General for the Naskapi Nation. I’m
24 also the spokesman on several files for the Chief
25 and council on the James Bay Agreement and Northern
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1 Quebec Agreement.
2 To my left I have Robert Provost.
3 He’s a general advisor.
4 I’d just like to comment on your
5 morning presentation.
6 First of all, Madam Chairman, you
7 say the open nature of consultation. It is the
8 duty to consult not an open nature. It’s the duty
9 to consult the Aboriginal groups of a project where
10 something will be done within their area of
11 interest.
12 Number two, we’ve heard from the
13 James Bay project how little, how minimal effects
14 would take place to the wildlife, which even to
15 this day has not been documented to us. We were
16 told that there will be no effect to the caribou.
17 There’s a big, big effect.
18 The Naskapi themselves were never
19 consulted about the Smallwood reservoir project
20 although they have Aboriginal rights there and they
21 maintain Aboriginal rights in Labrador.
22 In 1989 we fought for our right to
23 hunt, harvest Canada geese in Labrador.
24 Most of our chalets, camps 95
25 percent of them are based in Labrador. We do 99.9
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1 of our fishing in Labrador. Our biggest concern
2 will be the effects of the caribou, as much as it
3 affects human activity also.
4 The Naskapi have -- I will mention
5 in my -- I will elaborate in my presentation how
6 extensive their traditional land use has been
7 through Labrador. Naskapi will tell you, I will
8 say this, Mr. Hendriks can also confirm this, that
9 the Naskapi of Kawawachikamach are directly
10 biologically related to the Naskapi of Natuashish.
11 Now, we’ll begin with my
12 presentation.
13 Caribou has always been a primary
14 resource harvested by the Naskapi. The George
15 River herd, caribou herd, has always been a
16 principle source of caribou for the Naskapi, and
17 they have traditionally moved with the herd
18 throughout its annual range.
19 The following extract taken from
20 Nalcor’s supplementary information at page 13-6 is
21 accurate. In the past the Naskapi moved with the
22 herd, travelled throughout its annual range, which
23 extends to north Ungava Bay and south to the
24 Churchill River, hunting over the whole of the
25 interior of the lakes through and plateau of the
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1 Quebec/Labrador Peninsula, turning up at the
2 trading post in South East Labrador along the St.
3 Lawrence north shore or along the James Bay and
4 Hudson’s Bay coast.
5 I have one documented case in
6 court and in Wabush where a Naskapi witness himself
7 traveled from Fort McKenzie, went to Nain, wintered
8 in Davis Inlet and moved onto Sheshatshiu and
9 Northwest River and came back to Fort McKenzie.
10 There are other stories like that
11 documented by Hudson’s Bay Company.
12 Even the dead Minister Ed Roberts
13 acknowledged the Naskapi presence in Labrador at a
14 meeting we held in St. John’s.
15 Figure 13-2 appear on page 13-7 of
16 Nalcor’s supplementary information. Attached shows
17 the historic and contemporary land use of the
18 Naskapi Nation of Kawawachikamach and indicates
19 some of the trails in Labrador used by the Naskapi,
20 one which follows closely the footprint of the
21 transmission line along the Churchill River from
22 Churchill Falls to Happy Valley-Goose Bay.
23 Despite this, Nalcor inexplicably
24 at page 13-7, supplementary states:
25 “From a review of sources,
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1 trails were identified, none
2 of which are in the project
3 area.”
4 You know, Nalcor acts like a
5 devils advocate in the same way its main rival
6 acts, Hydro Quebec. Hydro Quebec seems to dictate
7 in the ‘70s who has rights and who doesn’t have
8 rights.
9 We proved that -- it was proved by
10 the Supreme Court that the Cree and the Naskapi
11 have rights in and to the territory. I should say
12 in the 1890s and 1912 Quebec’s national.
13 But Nalcor is a provincial agency.
14 It has no right to determine who has rights within
15 a specific area. It’s the government’s duty to
16 determine that and obligation.
17 The Naskapi have asserted
18 Aboriginal rights in the project area. Nalcor’s
19 supplementary information substantiates such
20 assertion. As such, the Crown has a duty to
21 consult with the Naskapi with regard to the
22 project. And jurisprudence proves that also.
23 The Naskapi do not have the
24 financial resources to study the effects the
25 project may have on them, including with our
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1 limitation, effects on migratory patterns of the
2 caribou and effects on the fish in the Churchill
3 River.
4 Right now, as you may know, the
5 George River caribou herd has reached an all time
6 low of 75,000 and for the past few winters it has
7 congregated within the Churchill area. And the
8 Naskapi, if they want access to it, they will go to
9 Newfoundland and harvest the caribou there, whether
10 or not authorities and Newfoundland try to
11 intervene. We maintain our Aboriginal right to
12 hunt in Labrador.
13 We almost came to a judgment when
14 we went to court for the migratory birds but the
15 Crown was saved by the Sparrow decision. The Crown
16 could have lost in trying to prosecute the Naskapi
17 from harvesting in Labrador.
18 We understand that the -- when we
19 go hunting to go hunt caribou we have to fish and
20 hunt small game along the way, and when the water
21 levels go up so will the mercury levels in the
22 fish, and we’ve known this because of our
23 experiences with the James Bay project.
24 Now, the James Bay project, a
25 smaller project, has affected the Naskapi -- I
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1 should say, the Naskapi so much that it even
2 affects the climate in Schefferville because we’re
3 sandwiched between two projects, and you tell us it
4 will have a minimal effect on the wildlife. We
5 disagree with that.
6 Nalcor has refused to recognize
7 that the Naskapi have Aboriginal rights that will
8 be affected by the project, and we maintain Nalcor
9 has no right to say that or even imply that, it is
10 the government’s obligation, not a Crown agency.
11 Nalcor appears to assume that
12 because Naskapi are now settled in Kawawachikamach
13 in Quebec they have abandoned any traditional
14 activities within the project area. That is not
15 so.
16 I’ll give another example, because
17 of the mining that is happening in the
18 Schefferville area the Government of Quebec -- the
19 Government of Newfoundland, I should say -- passed
20 a decree to give all kinds of economic rights to
21 the Innu of Labrador in an area they haven’t been
22 there for 75 years or more, in Schefferville. What
23 gives, I mean, the government to do that? Can it
24 just arbitrarily say oh, the Naskapi have rights
25 here, they don’t have rights there?
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1 You know, we’re talking about a
2 big area that the Naskapi used back in -- since
3 time in memorial. Nothing can be further from the
4 truth. As stated before, the Naskapi always
5 followed the caribou. The migratory pattern of the
6 caribou do not remain static. If the caribou
7 cannot be found in the Kawawachikamach area the
8 Naskapi will seek out caribou where they can be
9 found within their traditional hunting grounds.
10 If it is expedient for the Naskapi
11 to harvest caribou within the project area the
12 Naskapi will harvest. The fact that it says
13 harvesting may not take place in a particular area
14 every year, or for that matter, for a number of
15 years, does not affect the Naskapi Aboriginal right
16 to do so.
17 An Aboriginal right cannot be
18 extinguished anymore than a treaty right can be
19 extinguished without the consent of the Aboriginal
20 holder of that right.
21 A question to extinguishment can
22 never be assumed, and of course the Naskapi have
23 never entered into any treaty with the Crown where
24 their Aboriginal rights in Labrador have been
25 extinguished.
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1 Back in the James Bay negotiations
2 the federal government even offered an additional
3 $3 million for the Naskapi for their rights in
4 Labrador. We said no, we’ll do it another day,
5 we’ll negotiate when the time comes.
6 In recognition of the ever
7 changing migratory pattern of the caribou, the need
8 of the Naskapis to adapt there too under the James
9 Bay and Northern Quebec Agreement -- under North
10 Eastern Quebec Agreement.
11 Canada, Quebec, the Innu Quebec,
12 the James Bay Crees acknowledge that Naskapi have a
13 treaty right to harvest caribou over a vast area of
14 Northern Quebec, illustrated in the attached map.
15 Now the other thing I like to
16 point out to the panel, this is a verbal commitment
17 agreement that my Chief Joseph Guanish made to the
18 people of Davis Inlet,
19 “We recognize your rights to
20 hunt in Labrador. You can
21 hunt anytime you want within
22 the Naskapi territory, as far
23 north as it extends, that is
24 covered under the agreement.”
25 We still maintain that.
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1 In this context, one country named
2 -- Naskapi -- the aboriginals are extended east
3 into Labrador including the project area.
4 In summary then, the Naskapis
5 submit -- I wouldn’t say submit, we insist that
6 Nalcor fully consult with and as required to
7 accommodate the Naskapi with respect to the
8 project.
9 If Nalcor requires further studies
10 to document the aboriginal rights of the Naskapi in
11 the project area, the Crown and Nalcor has the
12 obligation to provide the funding for such studies.
13 However, the Naskapis contend that
14 such studies are not required -- Nalcor’s
15 supplementary information itself substantiates the
16 aboriginal rights of the Naskapi within the project
17 area.
18 Just recently the Government of
19 Newfoundland wrote to the Chief for their comments
20 of a project in Labrador that may or may not have
21 impacts in Quebec for their comments.
22 Newfoundland recognizes our treaty
23 rights but only in Quebec. But he still has not
24 honoured our rights in Labrador.
25 I thank you very much.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: I thank
2 you very much, Mr. Mameamskum, for your
3 presentation.
4 Do other -- are there any other
5 presentations to follow that you would to -- or
6 would you like to go to questions?
7 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: We just have a --
8 do you want to see the map?
9 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Yes, we
10 have the two copies of the map. Yes, so those are
11 good.
12 Okay, thank you.
13 Well, maybe I will ask my
14 colleagues on the panel if they have some questions
15 for you.
16 --- QUESTIONS BY THE PANEL:
17 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Yes, good
18 morning and thank you for your presentation.
19 I’d like to pursue a little bit
20 more -- I understand your relationship with the
21 families in Natuashish and your community.
22 I’d like for you to -- if you
23 could tell us a bit more about that relationship
24 and are there current family ties and do you travel
25 back and forth and did you hunt together in
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1 previous times and a little bit more on that
2 history?
3 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: When I first went
4 to North West River with a group of Naskapi elders
5 back in late ‘70s, I chartered an aircraft and I
6 took the people that congregate in that area, that
7 knew people there and they weren’t directly related
8 to them. And after 40 years, they haven’t had any
9 contact.
10 Right when the plane landed the
11 community leaders ran toward one gentleman, they
12 said, “Ah, my brother, I haven’t seen you in 40
13 years.” After 40 years, it was the first time he
14 saw him.
15 We have families that have --
16 directly related with each other like brother and
17 brother, sister and sister and to tell you how
18 close we are related, we are also -- when there's a
19 death in Natuashish or Sheshatshiu, the Naskapi do
20 travel there and vice-versa.
21 Just recently there was some --
22 people came from there. So our -- it’s not just
23 like people like that -- I know in Sept-Îles,
24 they’re colleagues but we are directly related to
25 them. As much as people in Nain and Makovik (ph)
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1 know each other, you know, by birth and by family.
2 As a matter of fact I’ve been very
3 lucky throughout my 35 years in public, I’ve met a
4 lot of coastal people that I’ve maintained very,
5 very good relations with throughout the years.
6 And I visited Davis Inlet but
7 unfortunately I haven’t been to Ekuanitshit yet.
8 I also sit on the board for the
9 Environmental Institute on Monitoring and Research
10 called IEMR. I’m the band representative there and
11 I used to travel regularly to Happy Valley but now
12 my health has not permitted me to do so.
13 But my board is coming to meet
14 with me in Quebec City in May which I appreciate
15 very much. It may be my last meeting with them but
16 my interest in Labrador and -- will not diminish at
17 all.
18 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Thank you
19 very much.
20 The other point I wanted to pursue
21 a bit farther was you indicated that the people in
22 your community when they go to their cabins or on
23 the land or when they go fishing, 90 percent of
24 others in the Labrador area and the Smallwood
25 reservoir area and the -- that’s still is the case?
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1 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Yes, sir. CAPS
2 in Labrador are just an outpost and from the
3 skidoos they can travel hundreds of kilometres.
4 Even Fort Nascopie, you mentioned in your
5 presentation here that you had some posts, Hudson’s
6 Bay Company, we have Fort Nascopie near
7 Patishikapau (ph) which is part of the flooded area
8 from the Smallwood area.
9 And this is only about less than
10 seven kilometres from Kawawachikamach itself,
11 that’s how far the effects of the Smallwood
12 reservoir has impacted Naskapi territory and
13 Labrador.
14 A friend of mine in -- Mr. Ed
15 Montague did some studies in Fort Nascopie. And he
16 has replicated the post at the Labrador Heritage
17 Centre in Labrador City on that.
18 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Sorry, I
19 don’t want to take too much time but I did want to
20 pursue also the question about the caribou.
21 I know you’re very dependant upon
22 the caribou and you mentioned that they’re at an
23 all-time low. And I was wondering if you could
24 tell us more about what you think the reasons might
25 be for that and the changing migration routes that
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1 the caribou ---
2 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: I’m not a
3 biologist, but even a biologist cannot answer this
4 question. Even biologists that I’ve worked with
5 for the past 35 years cannot answer this.
6 As a matter of fact I sit on
7 several boards and I also sit on International
8 Panel of CARMA which is a group of sub-artic groups
9 that harvest reindeer and caribou. We meet once a
10 year in Vancouver.
11 And we mentioned at the last
12 conference in October that the caribou are at an
13 all-time low and nobody can come up with an
14 explicit answer on what happened to them. We say
15 it’s over-hunting on both sides.
16 It’s a big issue in Quebec now
17 because the Naskapi to Quebec Inuit, James Bay
18 Cree, are pushing and are meeting the Government of
19 Quebec to close all commercial and outfitting hunts
20 for the George River caribou herd.
21 Quebec’s answer is we would
22 change. We will implement these, what you want, if
23 Newfoundland does the same. They said whether or
24 not we close the hunt or not, Newfoundland will not
25 close the hunt; 6,000 caribous are going to be
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1 harvested anyways, whether or not we close the
2 season.
3 They haven’t provided us any proof
4 of that and Newfoundland won’t provide us that
5 proof. The thing is you're playing around with --
6 we're playing around with politics who’s playing
7 around with a resource that is there and that might
8 disappear, just like the cod fish.
9 When Newfoundland fishermen were
10 told to cod fish are dwindling, they said no way.
11 What happened to the cod fish now? The caribou
12 will be gone like that.
13 So it is everybody’s
14 responsibility through that. Right now, we have to
15 document our kill now out of personal obligation of
16 the Naskapi and obligation to the James Bay
17 Agreement.
18 Principle of conservation
19 maintains that whenever a particular species is at
20 a precarious point, all parties must agree to
21 desist our activities. We did that for the snow
22 goose at Brant, when it faced a very bad winter in
23 the United States and all of its eggs were frozen
24 and a lot died.
25 But Quebec has back-pedalled on
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1 this and wants to blame somebody but it doesn’t
2 know who to blame yet. So we're maintaining the
3 same thing here.
4 Nalcor says there will be minimal
5 effects. We say there will be effects because,
6 first of all, the caribou, not even the Naskapi,
7 the Inuit or the Innu of Labrador can determine
8 where the caribou will be next year because the
9 caribou changes its migratory routes between the
10 last 15 years.
11 So nobody knows. Right now, like
12 I told you, in the past three to five years now,
13 the George River caribou has congregated near the
14 Churchill Falls area. We think it will continue to
15 do so.
16 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: When we were
17 in Newfoundland, we were told that the commercial
18 hunt for George River is being discontinued. I
19 mean to say the aboriginals can still hunt but that
20 the commercial outfitting hunt has been
21 discontinued, but that Quebec hasn’t followed suit.
22 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: I missed that.
23 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: I said when
24 we were in Newfoundland, we were told -- we had
25 presentations on the George River herd as well and
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1 we were told that the commercial -- as a
2 conservation measure, the commercial hunt has been
3 discontinued in Newfoundland and has been reduced
4 in Quebec but not discontinued.
5 And we were also told also by some
6 people yesterday that there is now a communication
7 between Newfoundland and Quebec and the Aboriginal
8 groups in Labrador and the Aboriginal groups in
9 Quebec with respect to trying to work out an
10 acceptable approach to hunting the George River
11 herd from a conservation point of view.
12 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: But yes, it has
13 been discontinued. The commercial -- when we say
14 “commercial”, commercial hunt, it means the right
15 to harvest and sell that caribou as a commercial
16 product. That has been discontinued in Quebec
17 because it has been so for the past three years
18 because of the -- the Inuit did that themselves.
19 They tried the George River. They were in the Leaf
20 River in the West Coast but that's been
21 discontinued because of uncertainty and it has
22 stopped.
23 But for the -- for this here, when
24 we say “commercial”, it's outfitting we say in
25 Quebec. Quebec has indicated to reduce it and to
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1 hunt by certain few weeks. There hasn’t been an
2 agreement as such.
3 There are discussions, but I can
4 tell you right now I was talking with one of the
5 lawyers that are involved there this morning.
6 There may be a legal case on this one. The native
7 parties will go to court to stop the outfitting
8 hunting of the George River caribou herd in Quebec.
9 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Okay. Thank
10 you very much.
11 MEMBER DOELLE: Yes, thank you for
12 your presentation.
13 I'm wondering if you can talk a
14 little bit more specifically about current use or
15 current activities in the project area, so in the
16 Lower Churchill area -- in the Churchill River
17 area.
18 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: As of a year and
19 a half ago, I had a group go as far as Churchill
20 Falls, but when they got there, the Newfoundland
21 authorities escorted them out of the province. We
22 said, “Don't put up a fight.”
23 They communicated with us by HF
24 radio. We said, “Okay, just don't make a scene out
25 of it.” But if any a Naskapi would have been
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1 arrested or charged for going into their own
2 aboriginal territory, we would have gone to court.
3 But the thing is the small
4 reservoir itself has created a big, big fishing
5 area and the Naskapi around the western point of
6 the Smallwood reservoir near Attikamagen Lake.
7 So they go by skidoo from there.
8 It's an outpost. From the community it's about a
9 -- I’d say about an hour drive and from there, I
10 mean, the routes are as far as the eye can see
11 because of the reservoir, and they go down almost
12 every weekend, but not specifically in Churchill
13 Fall because, first of all -- first of all, they
14 know for a fact when they go to Menihek, access is
15 very limited. It's more than impossible to take a
16 skidoo across unless you can bypass it through
17 Petshishkapushkau.
18 And Churchill Falls, to get there,
19 you're going to need a lot of supplies to get
20 there. You know, it's up but the thing is it
21 doesn’t discount like the possibility if the
22 caribou -- the George River herd keeps congregating
23 there year after year, we will go there.
24 It does me proud. Like I remember
25 a chief, a former chief of the Hurons, when he
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1 talked about aboriginal rights in Quebec and Quebec
2 politicians said, you know, but Quebec is now
3 populated, the Quebec City area, traditional area,
4 and he said, you know, even a farmer doesn't see
5 all his fields in a day.
6 MEMBER JONG: Thank you for your
7 presentation.
8 I was interested in a comment you
9 made about the changes you've seen in climate, I
10 guess, around Schefferville that you're suggesting
11 maybe are connected to both the Upper Churchill
12 development and the James Bay development.
13 I'm wondering if you could explain
14 a little bit more of what you've seen in the area
15 both, I guess, where you're living and where you
16 hunt and fish since those developments?
17 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Your presentation
18 there says that Nalcor has done studies since
19 1970s. You know, it comes back to the same
20 question, you know. When the Smallwood reservoir
21 was built, nobody ever did any studies. Only 40
22 years after the studies have said -- have indicated
23 there are effects.
24 What do you -- you know, I don't
25 know if -- maybe some of you panel members have
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1 been in the area, but you'll never be as close as
2 the territory that will be impacted as the Naskapi
3 have. They've been there.
4 And to see something change is
5 immense, beyond belief, let’s put it this way.
6 It’s an impact itself.
7 I can tell you one thing, you
8 know, my mom, she lives right by the lakefront.
9 She calls me. She says, “John!” I said, “What’s
10 wrong?” She said, “They’re building a road in my
11 backyard and I don’t want it.” And I said, “Mom,
12 they have to build a power line.” Even in my own
13 community, I could not stop that.
14 But imagine, with projects as
15 immense as the James Bay agreement, small
16 reservoir, the Churchill Falls, how can you explain
17 that to a native person that it will not have any
18 impact?
19 I disagree with it. I think that,
20 like you said here, the governments are talking
21 about the George River herd now. Oh, they’ve been
22 talking and talking and talking. They have to come
23 to an agreement. Thirty (30) years ago, we
24 proposed to the Government of Labrador and the
25 Government of Quebec, let’s form a joint inter-
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1 provincial management board made up of government
2 and native people.
3 If government starts working with
4 native people closely and listens to their
5 concerns, you may get somewhere. But pushing a
6 power project and bulldozing something will get you
7 opposition, not just by native people, by other
8 interest groups.
9 And the impacts of those projects
10 are immense. We’re sitting on two projects that we
11 had no power to stop. Yet, they went ahead. We’re
12 sandwiched right in there. Schefferville has its
13 own little micro climate because of the -- not just
14 because of that, but also coupled with climatic
15 change.
16 MEMBER JONG: Thank you.
17 I’m wondering if I could ask just
18 one other related question. When you talk about
19 the impacts of these other projects, I’m wondering
20 specifically how that’s affected you from the
21 perspective of country food, of caribou, fish?
22 We’ve heard certainly from other
23 communities that store-bought food is expensive and
24 it doesn’t taste as good. So folks are saying they
25 still very much value the component of their diet
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1 that comes from country food.
2 And I’m wondering where people in
3 your community are at with that? Is caribou and
4 fish still a big part of your diet?
5 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: We’re partial
6 also to caribou and fish, but projects such as this
7 elevate the mercury in the fish -- the mercury
8 content in the reservoir because of the rotting of
9 the wood, natural mercury.
10 But the caribou itself, migratory
11 routes are the biggest effect. It would take years
12 for the caribou to, let’s say, get used to the
13 project. Inasmuch as the caribou got used to the
14 Alaskan pipeline, when there’s activity there,
15 they’re not there.
16 As an example, when the Iron Ore
17 Company of Canada had mining activity in
18 Schefferville from 1955 to 1982, the Naskapi had to
19 travel 100, 200 miles north to harvest caribou.
20 Even with the minimal mining activity in
21 Schefferville right now, the exploration
22 activities, we haven’t seen any caribou in the past
23 four to five years in the Kawawachikamach area.
24 We’ve harvested recently about 40
25 caribou in the George River just about a month ago.
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1 We had to fly that far. It’s going to cost more
2 and more. The further the resources, the more it’s
3 going to cost us to get to the resource.
4 And like I said, if we have to go
5 to Labrador, we will go to Labrador.
6 MEMBER IGLOLIORTE: Thank you very
7 much.
8 It’s hard to congratulate you on
9 your mastery of English without sounding
10 patronizing, but I think you’re very clear. You’ve
11 done a fabulous job. We appreciate it.
12 I just wanted to ask a question
13 about caribou. In the years when the numbers were
14 good near your community, did you operate Innu-run
15 camps and what was the value in dollars and in jobs
16 to your community?
17 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: James, outfitting
18 was not something that the native people never
19 expected to make a living out of, but the Naskapi
20 bought the famous TUKTU outfitting camp 20 years
21 ago.
22 But the Naskapi were sold
23 something that did not smell good at that time
24 because the 1970s was a time of hay days where
25 people come -- the Canadian dollar was at an all-
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1 time low. The American dollar was high. There
2 used to be two loads of 737s landing in
3 Schefferville every day to accommodate the hunting
4 -- caribou hunting in Schefferville and Labrador.
5 The Naskapi made some money, but
6 as the economy dwindled, so did the clientele. Our
7 biggest clients right now are mining companies in
8 our outfitting camps.
9 The Naskapi had a few years of
10 good outfitting and people were working there. In
11 terms of dollars they were making, I think they
12 made less than a million dollars. But they’re
13 making more money from the mining companies because
14 mining companies, the installations are there and
15 we supply them with the cooks.
16 The outfitting camp is booked from
17 June to late September. We accommodate people as
18 far as George River now. So again, it’s never been
19 something -- it’s like the Hudson Bay Company.
20 Now, this is a very sad tale,
21 James. The manager -- it’s been documented -- the
22 manager of the Hudson Bay Company actually withheld
23 ammunition from the Naskapi. So the Naskapi
24 couldn’t have caribou but trap for them. But the
25 Naskapi were not trappers; they were hunters.
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1 They valued the caribou more than
2 they valued the pelts, because their livelihood was
3 based on the caribou, all their clothing,
4 everything they had, the caribou gave them.
5 Inasmuch as where you come from,
6 James, I’m sure the caribou is revered by the Inuit
7 people, like the Innu likewise.
8 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Well,
9 thank you.
10 I’m wondering if you could tell us
11 a bit about your community and about the people in
12 your community and particularly the young people
13 and what future you see for them, particularly in
14 relation to their interests and your ability to
15 enable them to live, at least in part, a
16 traditional way of life?
17 And then I’m interested -- we’ve
18 heard from a number of people about the need to
19 transmit knowledge, traditional knowledge to young
20 people and the role of the land that you need to be
21 out on the land to do that. You need to get out on
22 the land to do that and that that can sometimes be
23 a challenge.
24 So just anything you would like to
25 tell us about that I think would be very helpful.
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1 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Madam Griffiths,
2 I will do much better than that. I will send the
3 panel the annual report -- and you'll find
4 everything from A to Z.
5 Number two, to the Naskapi
6 maintaining to and striving to maintain their
7 culture and at the same time adapt to southern
8 lifestyles, a better education. Sixty (60) percent
9 of my teachers are Naskapi and native from out
10 West.
11 I have my first in-house engineer.
12 I have two nurses, Naskapi nurses I'm proud of.
13 I've got teachers coming in out of universities
14 now. I think the basis of maintaining a culture
15 and maintaining your control of your culture is
16 through education.
17 The youth of Naskapi are caught in
18 a 21st century net. The information highway is
19 beyond the grasp of anybody. You know, when I
20 first showed a Naskapi what a computer could do, we
21 programmed the computer to printing syllabics.
22 So I got this gentleman here and I
23 pressed a button, and the computer started printing
24 in Naskapi. She said, "How can it do that?" And
25 they were so amazed what the capabilities of that
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1 computer could be.
2 But the Naskapi youth now are up
3 and coming. I have about -- how many students, 43
4 outside this year?
5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Around that
6 -- close to 50.
7 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: We have 50
8 students studying outside the culture,
9 Commissioner. We have Naskapi in Labrador;
10 actually, it's not in Labrador, it's in North Bay?
11 -- North Bay, Ottawa, Montreal and as far as --
12 some of them are -- we have Naskapi in plenty --
13 B.C., Saskatchewan, Yukon. We are expanding.
14 But the Naskapi right now, we
15 number about 1,028, probably as much as -- growing
16 bigger and bigger every year. It's about 10 miles
17 northeast of Schefferville. It would have been
18 nice if you could have held your hearings there.
19 You would have been welcome. We would have made
20 sure that your representatives that came to
21 Kawawachikamach were well treated by my staff.
22 But you know, I can go on and on
23 about the Naskapi, but that's been my life. I
24 spent all my adult life working for the Naskapi to
25 maintain a good future for them. And I will
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1 continue to do so.
2 But I think what we'll do is when
3 Robert gets back to Montreal, he will send you the
4 last year's annual report and it has everything.
5 It's very interesting. I should have brought it
6 here in the first place.
7 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Well, we
8 would certainly very much like to get it -- we need
9 -- maybe this is not possible, but we need to have
10 it by April the 13th, yes, April the 13th. Is that
11 possible Mr. Mameamskum?
12 Thank you very much, that would be
13 great.
14 Just a follow-up, this is very
15 interesting what you're saying about -- it sounds
16 like engagement in education is working very well,
17 that you're getting some very skilled -- your young
18 people are getting skills and, I take it, coming
19 back, most of them coming back to the community,
20 bringing them back.
21 At the same time, are you able to
22 -- are the elders able to transmit the traditional
23 knowledge needed to be successful as hunters and on
24 the land? Is that working well?
25 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: I'm sorry I
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1 couldn't answer that in my first one.
2 The thing is, you know, that's a
3 thing. That's another challenge. We've been very
4 lucky to get these students come back and work like
5 the nurses and the engineer. When they knew that
6 they can be offered -- when they could -- there was
7 no need for outside help, outside assistance, they
8 can do the job themselves, yes, they came back.
9 In terms of culture, since 1970-
10 75, Naskapi have been taught in school from Grade 1
11 to Grade 3 how to read and write. That never
12 happened in my time. My kids, 99 -- say 99 percent
13 of the community speaks Naskapi at home and there
14 are a few that speak French also, the third
15 language.
16 And at school, most of that
17 curriculum is in Naskapi also. And elders also
18 take part in the school curriculum. One of the
19 things that we did also was we printed the first --
20 develop and started the first Naskapi lexicon in
21 three languages. It is a challenge, but as far as
22 we are concerned, the Naskapi language is very
23 strong compared to other aboriginal languages.
24 It's very spoken. It's safe for now.
25 But traditional knowledge is
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1 something that is passed on from one generation to
2 the other with reverence of respect and honour.
3 Traditional knowledge is brushed aside by western
4 science because it's not compatible with their
5 research. I asked one Newfoundland biologist, I
6 said, "How long did it take you to get your
7 Doctorate as a biologist?" "Twelve (12) years. "
8 I said, "This elder with me has
9 been out there for 60 years and he knows everything
10 that needs to be known by the animals that you
11 study, and you're telling me you have more
12 knowledge than him?"
13 I don't understand. You know,
14 over 35 years, there's talk about traditional
15 knowledge and yet it's something that's been not
16 recognized by western science, but it is recognized
17 within the native aboriginal culture and tradition.
18 It's revered.
19 Without that knowledge, they're
20 nothing. I'm lucky it was passed down to me.
21 Everything that my father taught me when I was
22 young has come to be very helpful when I go out in
23 the land also. Although I don't hunt as much as I
24 did when I was young, I am a weekend fisherman,
25 more now a photographer.
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1 Thank you.
2 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: I would
3 like to just ask two follow-up questions. One is
4 really just my own curiosity if you don't mind.
5 And that is can you say a little
6 bit about how Naskapi, the Naskapi language relates
7 -- how closely it relates to Innu-aimun? Do you
8 understand; you can communicate easily?
9 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Let's put it this
10 way, we can speak together, converse with each
11 other, but the difference wasn't brought on by the
12 Innu or the Naskapi. The difference was brought on
13 by British.
14 The Innu of Labrador are Catholic
15 and they had to learn the Roman letters how to
16 write; whereas the Naskapi, they're Anglican and
17 they learned the syllabics by Walton back in the
18 '40s, but the language is the same. The language
19 is the same.
20 I can talk to anybody in
21 Natuashish, North West River, Nutashkuan, La
22 Romaine, Betsiamites, as far as Northern Alberta,
23 we're part of a big Algonquin language that
24 stretches from the Labrador Coast all the way to
25 the plains Cree.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Thank you.
2 That, yes, that's very interesting.
3 But my second question, perhaps a
4 little more pertinent to what we're talking about
5 is you have participated for a long time on the
6 Board of the IEMR in Goose Bay, since the
7 beginning?
8 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Yes.
9 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Yes, in
10 fact I think we met some time ago. I just realized
11 that.
12 And you were talking about the
13 challenge of western science, western scientists or
14 practitioners of science incorporating and being
15 able to respect and draw in traditional knowledge.
16 I just wonder, with your
17 experience, did you find the IEMR a successful
18 model for doing that?
19 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: That is one
20 exception that I brought up at the caribou
21 conference -- the North American Caribou Conference
22 in Winnipeg in October about traditional western --
23 traditional aboriginal knowledge. I said, you
24 know, IEMR is the only group that I know in Canada
25 now that makes it a prerequisite for any study to
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1 commence that an aboriginal knowledge component
2 will be there. If it’s not there, they don’t --
3 they won’t fund that project.
4 IEMR, it was something that was
5 bought up, I mean, created to counter the
6 opposition to the low-level military flights. And
7 the Naskapi were very good to catch the boat then,
8 because we happened to know James Sparks, the man
9 that did the consultation, and we were lucky to
10 know him and to tell him what we did in Quebec on
11 Quebec hunting, fishing and trapping in the
12 coordinating committee.
13 James was very helpful in having
14 the Naskapi gain a seat there. You know, it’s a
15 plus. Like I said, I commend IEMR. It is the
16 first aboriginal and non-aboriginal association
17 that recognizes traditional aboriginal knowledge on
18 both sides of the border.
19 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Okay.
20 Thank you very much.
21 I am wondering whether -- what I
22 would like to do is provide an opportunity for
23 Nalcor to ask questions if they have them. I also
24 think it’s probably high time we took a break so
25 everyone could have some coffee, if that’s what
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1 they want. And it’s possible the panel may have
2 one or two more questions afterwards, if that’s ---
3 MR. G. BENNETT: Yes, that would
4 work fine. We can take a break and we’ll go from
5 there.
6 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: So if
7 that’s all right, thank you very much for your
8 presentation and answering questions so far.
9 Let’s take 15 minutes, and if
10 you’re willing to come back, we will proceed from
11 there.
12 Thank you. So we’ll come back at
13 about 10 to 11:00. Thank you.
14 --- Upon recessing at 10:32 a.m./
15 L’audience est suspendue à 10h32
16 --- Upon resuming at 10:57 a.m./
17 L’audience est reprise à 10h57
18 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: So I’d
19 like to invite everyone to take their seats and
20 perhaps we can resume our conversation and
21 questions.
22 I know from talking with my
23 colleagues that there are some more questions from
24 us, but I think it’s probably time that we stop
25 talking and let the Proponent have a chance to ask
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1 their questions, and then after that we may want to
2 come back and have a few questions and you may have
3 some questions of Nalcor. I don’t know. So we’ll
4 proceed until we’ve reached the end, I guess. You
5 can let us know when that is.
6 So Mr. Bennett.
7 MR. G. BENNETT: Thank you, Madam
8 Co-Chair.
9 And in fact, we continued our
10 conversation during the break and I think I just
11 have a couple of observations. I think the session
12 this morning has been extremely useful and I think
13 it’s unfortunate that Mr. Trimper is not with us
14 this morning. We would have had certainly a
15 continued dialogue on caribou because I think
16 there’s a lot of our work that is pretty aligned on
17 this issue, and I think it’s important now for us
18 to continue that dialogue.
19 And what I’d like to do, if it’s
20 acceptable with the community, we’d like to bring
21 our team in and have a workshop on this topic. I
22 think there’s been a lot of work done and we need
23 to just continue that dialogue because I think a
24 lot of the conclusions that we’re seeing on our
25 side are lined up with comments that we’ve heard
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1 here this morning.
2 On a personal note, I’d just like
3 to say that we’ve tremendously appreciated the
4 conversation and dialogue this morning, and I’d
5 like to continue that.
6 That’s about it from our side.
7 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: That’s it?
8 MR. G. BENNETT: Yes, so we can
9 turn back to the panel.
10 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Back to
11 us.
12 I know my colleagues have got
13 questions, but I’m going to ask one first, if I
14 may. And again, this is one of these sort of self-
15 education questions.
16 But I just would like if you could
17 tell me how the George River herd -- who is
18 managing the George River herd right now? I mean,
19 I know various bodies are involved. You said that
20 at one point you made a proposal, that was not
21 accepted, that there be a joint management board
22 involving the Province of Quebec, Province of
23 Newfoundland and Labrador, I would imagine the
24 federal government, though you didn’t say it, but
25 maybe not, and aboriginal communities, First
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1 Nations. But that was not accepted.
2 I wonder if you could just tell me
3 very briefly how the George River herd is being
4 managed and what is your view on the effectiveness
5 of the present management structure for the herd?
6 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Madam, if I could
7 answer your question, I wouldn’t be here in the
8 first place.
9 Anyways, listen, it’s -- let me
10 put it this way. I’ve been on the Quebec Hunting,
11 Fishing, Trapping Coordinating Committee since its
12 inception, just like the IEMR. The Hunting,
13 Fishing Trapping Coordinating Committee is the
14 basis of the James Bay Agreement and it spells out
15 how hunting, fishing, trapping rights will be
16 exercised by the Cree, the Inuit and the Naskapi.
17 But I’d like to emphasize right
18 now that the Cree and the Inuit signed the James
19 Bay Agreement in 1975, November 11th, and the
20 Naskapi signed a subsequent agreement called the
21 North-Eastern Quebec Agreement in 1978. I was the
22 senior negotiator for that agreement.
23 The caribou itself, the George
24 River caribou is an inter-provincial species that
25 goes from one side of Quebec and Labrador. Like
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1 the Naskapi and the Innu, the caribou doesn’t
2 recognize borders and it’s an animal that we’ve
3 hunted, that we maintain. There’s historical
4 evidence that we follow that herd from east to
5 west, west to east.
6 Our earliest contact with the
7 Europeans were Moravian missionaries. At that
8 time, the Naskapi were one group. When caribou got
9 scarce, the group split. But they used to meet
10 each other for the annual meeting they used to
11 meet, an old chief used to tell me, at the Indian
12 House Lake. The Naskapi of Labrador and the
13 Naskapi of Quebec used to meet there before they
14 split for their hunting groups.
15 Now, Madam, in terms of caribou
16 management, it is a sham in both Quebec and
17 Labrador because both Quebec and Labrador have been
18 very, let’s say, uncooperative in fulfilling their
19 legal obligation to protect that herd.
20 Look what’s happened; decimated to
21 75,000. And they’re squabbling on both sides
22 saying that, “Okay, we maintain this, we maintain
23 that.” But nothing, we’re arguing that the caribou
24 are -- population is dwindling.
25 If they had any -- if the
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1 governments of Newfoundland or Quebec, had any
2 sense of responsibility, they would have followed
3 our recommendation. We would have been -- the
4 caribou would have been probably in a better state,
5 let’s put it this way.
6 Because -- in other caribou
7 management boards that I see, especially the
8 Beverly Qamanirjuak Management Board, this is an
9 international herd that passes through Alaska,
10 Yukon, Northwest Territories. Managing that herd
11 is a very good job. It’s done professionally and
12 everybody gets their caribou.
13 If the resource is impacted by
14 anything, the groups know. That doesn’t exist in
15 Quebec and Labrador. Quebec and Newfoundland seem
16 to maintain once the caribou is in our area, it
17 belongs to us and vice-versa.
18 You can never know where the
19 caribou are. Like I said, even the Nalcor guys
20 have confirmed that the George River caribou herd
21 has congregated in the Churchill area for the past
22 3-4 years now.
23 As a matter of fact, we sat down
24 here during the break, they suggest that we hold a
25 workshop in Kawawachikamach. I said it’s -- we
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1 looked at their suggestion because there would be
2 more open discussion on how far the Naskapi have
3 used -- travelled into the Labrador interior. And
4 I welcome their suggestion.
5 You know, I don’t know where that
6 court case is going to end up Ma’am, but the thing
7 is just being instituted now for the Quebec
8 natives, I mean -- what I mean, Quebec natives is
9 the James Bay Cree to Naskapi Inuit. Because
10 Quebec imposed regulations that are contrary to the
11 treaty that they signed with the Cree and Inuit and
12 Naskapi.
13 We say it’s a breach of a
14 contract. We’ll see, we’ll see, I just want to see
15 what's going to be happening in the next few days.
16 But we’re being informed on a daily basis, on a
17 weekly basis, what's happening.
18 But, you know, if the governments
19 are -- start to talk now, it’s because they don’t
20 know who to blame, themselves or the native people
21 or the hunters. But I think it’s a sign -- it’s a
22 good sign they are talking together; but they
23 shouldn’t leave out the native people. The native
24 people are the primary user of the caribou.
25 But you listen -- even in the
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1 James Bay agreement, we maintain that the
2 substantive use of the caribou is there, the treaty
3 right. But we’ve also maintained that a sport hunt
4 is recognized by the native people for the non-
5 native.
6 In the same way as we tell a
7 visitor, “You fish on your side of the river and
8 I’ll fish on my side on the river.”
9 But it doesn’t exist in caribou,
10 Ma’am. There is no cooperation between Quebec and
11 Newfoundland. The only cooperation there is that
12 is what IMR has applicated to them. We give them
13 money to put cutters on the cable on both sides of
14 the border. It’s the same herd.
15 But the herd is diminishing and
16 now, you know, if the George River caribou herd can
17 diminish that fast, what will happen to the
18 woodland caribou, the Red Wine, the Lac Joseph
19 herd? Lac Joseph herd is right next to --
20 congregates in this project area. And it’s a
21 species that needs to be protected.
22 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Well,
23 thank you very much. That’s helpful
24 And I know Meinhard has -- and
25 maybe others have other caribou-related questions.
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1 So my only last thing was could you just -- I
2 missed when you named another herd in the Alaska
3 area that you felt was being managed more
4 successfully. I missed the name; could you tell me
5 the name of the herd?
6 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: It’s called the
7 Beverley Qamanirjuak herd caribou.
8 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Okay, all
9 right.
10 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: It traverses from
11 Alaska to Northwest Territories -- Yukon to
12 Northwest Territories.
13 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: In that
14 case, you say there's actually some kind of
15 management coordination across this?
16 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: It’s very well
17 managed.
18 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Okay,
19 thank you.
20 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Very well
21 managed.
22 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Thank you.
23 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: To the surprise
24 of the aboriginal users.
25 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Sometimes
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1 it’s good to be surprised.
2 MEMBER DOELLE: All right. Thank
3 you.
4 You talked earlier about how the
5 caribou are affected by developments, and
6 particularly large projects like James Bay, like
7 the Upper Churchill. And you indicated that the
8 caribou avoid areas that have been or are being
9 developed but they -- sometimes, they return.
10 And I’m wondering whether you can
11 talk about your experience with respect to James
12 Bay and Upper Churchill about how long they stayed
13 away, where they went, when they came back if they
14 came back? I’d just be interested in your
15 experience.
16 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: In Churchill and
17 James Bay, they will never return to the flooded
18 areas for sure, that’s for sure.
19 But in my personal experience in
20 Schefferville, I can tell you the caribou -- after
21 the mines closed -- two years after the mines
22 closed, the caribou came back. But do you know
23 which way they came back? Trough the miner roads.
24 So they came back there because of necessity -- I
25 mean, that’s the way the caribou is. You never
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1 know where they’re going to go but they do come
2 back.
3 One of the big experience we had
4 was 15 years ago, a caribou herd passed from the
5 south to the east of Schefferville, from
6 Schefferville to Kawawachikamach. Every hill was
7 teeming with caribou. It took that caribou six and
8 a half hours to pass through. This was only about
9 -- not even a third of the present population of
10 the caribou.
11 MEMBER DOELLE: What about Upper
12 Churchill, the Churchill Falls project?
13 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: We don’t know.
14 We have to see after the dam is built, right? But
15 I do know for a fact and you can ask the pipeline
16 at the -- caribou are seen near the pipeline. I
17 mean, going through there -- going under the
18 pipeline to their traditional migratory routes.
19 Even Dempster Highway in Alaska,
20 in Yukon also, the caribou are passing through
21 there.
22 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Yes, I had a
23 question.
24 I wanted to follow-up a little bit
25 on the current status of any negotiations you might
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1 be having with respect to aboriginal and
2 traditional rights with the Government of Canada or
3 with the Government of Quebec or Newfoundland or
4 have you filed any claims? I just wanted to get a
5 feeling for where you were in the land claims
6 process with the various governments?
7 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Like I told you,
8 the Naskapi signed the North Eastern Quebec
9 agreement on January 31st, 1978. Our land claims in
10 Quebec has been settled.
11 But the only thing that hasn’t
12 been settled in Quebec, we’re still negotiating our
13 impact and benefit agreement with mining companies.
14 We’ve settled our Newfoundland --
15 believe it or not, we’ve settled our Newfoundland
16 IBA, between Labrador Iron Mines and New
17 Millennium.
18 Now, we’re going to be negotiating
19 the Quebec side.
20 But in terms of Newfoundland, we
21 have never had an official meeting with them, only
22 as far as when we met with the then Minister of
23 Justice Ed Roberts. It was preliminary.
24 On top of that, the other official
25 letter we had from Newfoundland was recently for
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1 Naskapi comments on an exploration camp in Labrador
2 side, just about two months ago -- about two months
3 ago.
4 So there has not been any official
5 contact. But I do know for a fact Newfoundland’s
6 policy of settling resident claims before non-
7 resident as they term it, has not been forthcoming.
8 We would like to sit down with the
9 Government of Newfoundland to negotiate our land
10 claims in Newfoundland. And we want the Government
11 of Canada to be a party to it also.
12 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: When you
13 mentioned Mr. Roberts as the Minister of Justice,
14 that must have been life 15 years ago or something
15 like that?
16 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Well, our claim
17 -- our claim goes back further than that, that we
18 sent to the Government of Canada. And we still
19 have to refine some things.
20 But the thing is in terms of
21 proving that we have Aboriginal rights, I think we
22 -- the proof is there. The Naskapi have used a
23 traverse near Labrador from time immemorial.
24 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: So I just
25 understand, so you have filed also a claim with the
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1 Government of Canada some time before that but you
2 still had to file some more information for a land
3 claim that goes within the -- across the
4 Quebec/Labrador border within the Labrador.
5 You filed that claim with the
6 Government of Canada. Do I understand you
7 correctly?
8 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Would you say
9 that again, sir?
10 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: I'm just
11 trying to confirm or I'm trying to confirm my
12 understanding of what you said that before you had
13 the discussions with the Minister of Justice in
14 Newfoundland, before that, you had filed a claim
15 with the Government of Canada ---
16 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Yes, we did.
17 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: --- for land
18 within the Labrador side.
19 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Yes, we did.
20 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: But that
21 claim hasn’t been negotiated ---
22 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Hasn’t been
23 accepted yet, yeah.
24 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Okay.
25 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: It hasn’t been
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1 accepted.
2 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: I just wanted
3 to confirm. Thank you.
4 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Both by even --
5 even by Labrador.
6 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Thank you for
7 clarifying that for me.
8 MEMBER JONG: I’m wondering if I
9 can bring us back to caribou one last time.
10 You mentioned, I think, that the
11 Lac Joseph herd is -- you feel that they are moving
12 over closer to the Churchill Falls area. Is that
13 right?
14 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Yes Ma’am. I
15 have a -- I have a Quebec/Labrador map here. It's
16 in this area, the 1927 Privy Council line here; 27.
17 MEMBER JONG: And is that further
18 east than they used to be, do you think? Is this a
19 change or is this ---
20 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: No, it's not a
21 change. They've been -- I mean the thing is
22 there's the other caribou herd that nobody has ever
23 even thought of, you know, mentioning in studies.
24 It's called the -- what do you call it -- I forgot
25 the name of it -- the McFadden caribou. It's about
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1 40-50 miles from Schefferville. It's in the
2 McFadden River Valley. That is another caribou
3 herd that's close to Schefferville, woodland
4 caribou at this place very close to Schefferville.
5 We know it's there.
6 The Newfoundland biologist -- one
7 Newfoundland biologist estimates the size between
8 240 to about 260. The Lake Joseph, I don't know,
9 it's more -- I think it would be about the same.
10 But they're very -- they're going
11 to be -- they're going to be threatened. I mean
12 they're going to be impacted by this project for
13 sure. There's no doubt about it.
14 MEMBER JONG: Yes, that's
15 interesting because I'm looking to the Proponent
16 here. I know Perry is not here. So it's not a
17 good time to ask these questions.
18 But my recollection from the
19 information that you folks provided was that your
20 suggestion was that the Lac Joseph herd wouldn’t be
21 impacted because the bulk of them were further west
22 of the project and there a 5 percent or something
23 overlap between the two.
24 And I guess I'm just trying to
25 reconcile. I wondered at the time because you had
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1 a map with a whole bunch of dots on it and I
2 remember, well, there are a fair number of dots
3 that are over in that eastern side of that herd.
4 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: But Catherine --
5 Catherine?
6 MEMBER JONG: Yes.
7 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Not even the
8 Proponent can pinpoint where the Lac Joseph herd
9 will be after the project is commenced or started.
10 MEMBER JONG: Yeah, exactly.
11 Thank you for your input. I appreciate it.
12 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Well, I
13 think that concludes the questions from the panel
14 to you.
15 I understand there are no more
16 questions from Nalcor.
17 So I would again like to thank you
18 very much for spending time with us and presenting
19 your information and views to us and entering into
20 the dialogue with us with these questions. It's
21 been very helpful.
22 And I think I would -- I will just
23 turn to -- I've got a piece of house -- just so I
24 don't forget, I do have a piece of housekeeping
25 business that I have to do with Nalcor but I'll do
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1 that in a moment right at the very end.
2 I'm going to just go back to Mr.
3 Bennett to see if there's any remarks that you wish
4 to make, having heard everything this morning.
5 And then I would invite if you
6 wish to say anything in closing. And then I think
7 that will bring us to -- and then I'll do my
8 housekeeping and that will bring us to the end of
9 this community session this morning, if you feel
10 that you've made all the presentations that you
11 wish to make.
12 MR. MAMEAMSKUM: Anyways, during
13 the break, I got to meet some of the panel members.
14 I'm a bit more surprised there about the
15 composition of the panel. I had assumed it would
16 be more Newfoundlander but as you have some -- it's
17 an international panel. You have a German there,
18 an American, a Quebecer, you know, and you've got
19 the Aboriginal right there.
20 I thank you very much.
21 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Okay,
22 thank you.
23 Mr. Bennett?
24 MR. G. BENNETT: That’s great.
25 Thank you.
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1 Thank you, Madam Co-Chair.
2 No, I don't have a whole lot to
3 add at this point. I think that, you know, we're
4 aligned on a lot of these issues and certainly I
5 would agree that it's difficult to predict where
6 caribou are going to be. That's a good point.
7 You know, we've done a chunk of
8 work. We have assessed -- you know, I think in
9 terms of the herds that you talked about this
10 morning, we've covered this ground with the caribou
11 team.
12 I can only reiterate two points I
13 made earlier that, you know, certainly we want to
14 continue this dialogue and want to get Mr. Trimper
15 on the ground and the workshop and then further --
16 further discuss these issues.
17 I think when we look at the
18 habitat that we've done in the River Valley in the
19 small area that we're dealing with there, I think
20 we can work our way through those issues together.
21 And simply to I guess reiterate my
22 earlier comments as well, I really appreciated the
23 discussion this morning. It was great to meet
24 representatives from Kawawachikamach and we
25 certainly want to continue this dialogue.
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1 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Thank you,
2 Mr. Bennett.
3 If you could just bear with me, I
4 have this housekeeping item we would like to
5 address with Nalcor.
6 I want to take a minute. It's
7 really a question of clarification from the
8 response or the information you provided us this
9 morning in terms of the housekeeping.
10 So you first indicated that you
11 are going to be filing some written information
12 today regarding the feasibility of running AC lines
13 together with DC lines. So we understand that. So
14 there will be something written coming on that.
15 You also responded that the
16 information, the undertaking that was requested
17 when we were in Cartwright, which the panel put
18 forward because we had heard from so many people in
19 so many places this interest obviously, as you
20 know, in getting Lower Churchill power to the
21 coastal community.
22 So we requested that you provide
23 the information on the cost of the transmission
24 lines.
25 And I think our question, I
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1 believe, was a little bit more specific in terms of
2 saying what would the cost be to get the path of
3 the first community and then the incremental costs
4 from there to get to the other communities up and
5 down the coast.
6 Now, you said -- no, I'm just not
7 quite sure when you replied, you came up with, as
8 you've said, an older figure of three hundred
9 million and said well, you know, obviously that
10 would be higher now.
11 But was it your intent that that
12 was the answer to the -- you're not proposing to
13 provide us any more detail? Are you saying that
14 you can't give us this information of the
15 incremental costs to each community?
16 And the other thing is we don't
17 understand whether the three hundred million was to
18 be -- which communities would be served by that
19 cost?
20 Are you proposing to give us any
21 written response on that?
22 MR. G. BENNETT: I didn't intend
23 to and I guess for a couple of reasons. I think,
24 first of all, you know, first of all, we're talking
25 to Vale. Okay, and that's -- so I don't want to
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1 compromise that process by throwing a whole pile of
2 numbers out while we are engaged in that
3 discussion.
4 The question that was asked of us
5 by the Public Utilities Board or asked by Hydro
6 rather was to look at interconnection of all the
7 communities. And if I have to now get down to sort
8 of the cost estimate on a community-by-community
9 basis, then there will be a level of precision
10 expected with that and all of a sudden, we are
11 actually doing the work that I suspect is going to
12 be asked of Hydro before the Public Utilities
13 Board.
14 So I understood that the request
15 was in order of magnitude ball-park type number and
16 if we're doing now, you know, kilometre by
17 kilometre, community by community cost estimates, I
18 think I'm getting a little more precise than the
19 order of magnitude indication.
20 So that's the challenge that we
21 have instead of if we start saying well the cost to
22 get to Cartwright is this, and then to go to Port
23 Hope Simpson is that, then we're going into a fair
24 bit of detail.
25 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Okay, I
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1 understand.
2 But the three hundred -- the
3 ballpark of three hundred million at that time --
4 sorry, what year was that?
5 MR. G. BENNETT: That was in their
6 2001 general rate application, so it would have
7 been late '01 or early '02.
8 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: And that
9 information was the cost to take part -- to all the
10 North Coast communities and all the South Coast
11 communities, all of them?
12 MR. G. BENNETT: That's right.
13 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Okay.
14 Thank you for that clarification.
15 So with that, that completes the
16 housekeeping item we had. And now I want to thank
17 Chief Louis Einish and Mr. Mameamskum and Mr.
18 Provost for coming to present to us and to talk
19 with us. We really appreciate this and it's been a
20 good morning's discussion.
21 I hope you've felt the same and
22 thank you for your information which we will take
23 under serious consideration of course.
24 Thank you and safe journey back.
25 --- Upon recessing at 11:27 a.m./
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1 L'audience est suspendue à 11h27
2 --- Upon resuming at 1:00 p.m./
3 L’audience est reprise à 13h00
4 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Good
5 afternoon.
6 We’ll start the afternoon session.
7 Before we do, I just want to remind everybody about
8 the availability of the translation devices. You
9 can pick them up in the back. Channel 1 has
10 English, channel 2 French and channel 3 Innu-aimun.
11 My name is Herb Clarke. I’m one
12 of the Co-Chairs of the Joint Review Panel for the
13 Lower Churchill Hydroelectric Generation Project.
14 We’re pleased to be here in Sept-
15 Îles and I’m happy to welcome you to this community
16 session for the communities of Matimekush-Lac John.
17 I’d like to introduce the other
18 panel members. On my left is the other Co-Chair,
19 Ms. Lesley Griffiths. On Lesley’s left is Meinhard
20 Doelle. On my right is Jim Igloliorte, and on
21 Jim’s right is Cathy Jong.
22 In addition to that we have the
23 Secretariat. Two are at the chair and others are
24 around the room. The Secretariat are the support
25 for the panel, but they’re also here to support
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1 you, and if you have any questions about the
2 process or about your presentation this afternoon
3 or anything like that, by all means just approach
4 one of the Secretariat and I’m sure that they’ll be
5 able to help you.
6 This Joint Review Panel was formed
7 and created in January of 2009, which is a little
8 over two years ago, and it was done by an agreement
9 between the Government of Canada and the Government
10 of Newfoundland and Labrador. And the panel was
11 appointed with a mandate to conduct an independent
12 and an impartial review of Nalcor Energy’s proposed
13 Lower Churchill Hydroelectric Generation project.
14 In the past two years since Nalcor
15 has submitted its environmental impact statement,
16 the panel has asked a number of questions about the
17 environmental impact statement and a number of
18 information requests have been provided to the
19 Proponent and the Proponent has replied to those
20 information requests, and then each time there’s
21 been an opportunity for public consultation and a
22 number of participants or stakeholders have
23 participated in the process, including your own
24 community.
25 Our Terms of Reference give us a
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1 total of 45 days to complete the public hearing
2 process that we’re in now. We made the decision in
3 January of this year that we had received
4 sufficient information to start the hearing
5 process. We gave notice, and the hearings actually
6 started on March the 3rd in Happy Valley-Goose Bay
7 and they will end on April the 15th in Happy Valley-
8 Goose Bay, and that will be next week, which is one
9 week from today.
10 This afternoon we have a community
11 hearing for the community of Matimekush-Lac John,
12 and the primary objective of a community hearing is
13 to hear from the community with the information
14 that they wish to provide to the panel with respect
15 to any aspect of the project.
16 So we wanted to hear from you
17 about any aspect related to the physical
18 environment with respect to the water resources,
19 with respect to the land and animals, but also with
20 respect to any impacts on your community and other
21 socioeconomic areas.
22 But in addition to that, we have a
23 mandate to address specifically two areas related
24 to Aboriginal persons and communities. First, we
25 are required to invite information related to the
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1 nature and scope of potential or established
2 Aboriginal rights or title in the area of the
3 proposed project, as well as information on the
4 potential adverse impacts or potential infringement
5 that the proposed project will have on asserted or
6 established Aboriginal rights or title, and we will
7 include that information that we are provided with,
8 we will include that information in our final
9 report.
10 However, as a panel we have no
11 mandate to make any determinations or
12 interpretations regarding the following three
13 areas: One, the validity or the strength of any
14 Aboriginal groups claim to Aboriginal rights and
15 title or treaty rights; number two, the scope or
16 nature of the Crown’s duty to consult Aboriginal
17 persons or groups, and number three, whether Canada
18 or Newfoundland and Labrador has met its respective
19 duty to consult and accommodate in respect of
20 potential rights recognized and affirmed under
21 Section 35 of the Constitution Act 1982. That’s
22 the first area.
23 The second area where we need to
24 address is the current use of the land and the
25 resources, including aquatic resources by
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1 Aboriginal persons or for traditional purposes,
2 including the location of camps, harvested species
3 and transportation routes. And in that instance,
4 we do have a mandate to make findings about
5 potential project effects and also to make
6 recommendations.
7 So we look forward to this
8 presentation in this community hearing this
9 afternoon.
10 Once the hearings have been
11 completed in accordance with the Terms of
12 Reference, the panel has a total of 90 days in
13 which to make its final report, and that final
14 report will be made to the Minister of Environment
15 for Canada and the Minister of Environment and
16 Conservation for Newfoundland and Labrador.
17 And it will be an advisory
18 document. It will include what we heard in the
19 hearings, it would include the recommendations and
20 the rationale of the panel for the recommendations
21 that it makes. But it is an advisory document,
22 it’s not a decision making -- we’re not a decision
23 making body.
24 Once the Minister’s receive the
25 report, they make the report public and then they
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1 proceed then with a decision making structure,
2 their own decision making process for making
3 decisions with respect to the project.
4 There’s one additional thing I
5 would like to bring to your attention, and that is
6 at the close of the hearings there will be two days
7 on April the 14th and April the 15th where
8 participants can make closing remarks, and we’ve
9 established some procedures for those closing
10 remarks and these procedures are available from the
11 Secretariat or they’re available on the registry.
12 If you intend either to register
13 or to make a presentation on the 14th or 15th it’s
14 necessary to register by the 10th of April, and if
15 you wish to make any additional new information in
16 writing to the panel that has to be made at the
17 latest April the 13th.
18 The procedure for this afternoon,
19 once my opening remarks are completed, is I’ll call
20 on Nalcor Energy and they will make a presentation
21 on the project. And after that presentation by
22 Nalcor there is an opportunity then to either ask
23 questions or for the community to make its
24 presentation, and after the presentation from the
25 community it would be an opportunity then for a
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1 discussion with the panel where the panel would
2 like to ask questions and have a discussion with
3 the presenters from the community. There will also
4 be an opportunity for Nalcor to ask questions of
5 the community after your presentation.
6 Sometime after an hour or so we’ll
7 probably work in a coffee break for 15 minutes but
8 we have some flexibility as to how that would work.
9 Before I pass it over to Nalcor,
10 there’s one other very small housekeeping point I
11 need to make, and that is originally we had been
12 planning that the community of Pakuashipi might be
13 making a presentation this evening and we’ve been
14 recently informed that that, in fact, will not
15 happen, so there won’t be a session this evening
16 for the community of Pakuashipi.
17 So having said that, I’ll now pass
18 to Nalcor for their presentation.
19 --- PRESENTATION FROM NALCOR ENERGY BY MR.
20 BURLINGAME:
21 MR. BURLINGAME: Good afternoon
22 and thank you. Good afternoon.
23 We have a presentation here which
24 goes over a few topics.
25 Can you go to the next slide
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1 please, Jackie?
2 Our plan is to go through this
3 fairly quickly at a very high level, but then, of
4 course, if people have questions they can ask us
5 and we’re going to be happy to try and respond to
6 them in as much detail as we can.
7 So we’ll go through each of these
8 points, as described on the slide.
9 Can I go to the next slide please?
10 Nalcor Energy has five different
11 lines of business. The Lower Churchill project is
12 headed by our Vice-President Mr. Gilbert Bennett.
13 Now I’m going to pause for a
14 moment and I was rudely mistaken in not introducing
15 the other people at this table.
16 Marion Organ is sitting to Mr.
17 Bennett’s left. She is an environmental engineer
18 with the project. Martin Coté, to my right, has
19 been working in our efforts to understand
20 traditional and contemporary land and resource use
21 in Quebec. And my name if Todd Burlingame. I’m
22 the Manager of Environment and Aboriginal Affairs
23 for the project.
24 I apologize for that.
25 Back to the slide.
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1 As I said, there are five business
2 units within Nalcor. There’s the oil and gas
3 division, hydro, the Churchill Falls facility and a
4 fabrication facility on the island portion of the
5 province. Each have a vice-president which reports
6 to Mr. Ed Martin, who is the Chief Executive
7 Officer for Nalcor.
8 Can we go to the next slide?
9 I’m quite certain most people are
10 aware of what this development is proposed for.
11 Certainly it’s a big and important part for the
12 provincial energy future and if it is developed it
13 is seen as an opportunity to produce sustainable
14 and renewable energy for both use within the
15 Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and also to
16 generate revenue by selling any extra as export
17 energy.
18 Next slide please.
19 A map that will be familiar to all
20 of you in this room shows the two sites, Muskrat
21 Falls downstream near Happy Valley-Goose Bay and
22 Gull Island further upstream, and the reservoirs
23 behind both of those dams would impound water and
24 the area that it would flood would equal to about
25 five percent of the area that was flooded with the
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1 creation of the Upper Churchill development, which
2 is shown in the lighter blue up to the left-hand
3 corner. I know you are all aware of that.
4 Next slide please.
5 There’s a couple of models against
6 the back wall there we can look at with better
7 detail which show a before and after of the
8 proposed project.
9 But this close-up model shows
10 those two components and the red line is the
11 interconnecting transmission line that would go to
12 Churchill Falls.
13 Perhaps we’ll go to the next slide
14 please.
15 Again, a before and after for
16 Muskrat Falls, and the next slide is an artist’s
17 rendition of before and after for Gull Island.
18 Regarding consultation efforts, we
19 have undertaken several different activities and
20 attempts to try and engage with communities and
21 have provided information in various forms
22 translated into French, English, Innu-aimun and
23 Naskapi.
24 For the Quebec Innu groups we’ve
25 all offered the same initial preliminary offer of
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1 capacity or resource funding to initiate
2 discussions, and in some cases we have been able to
3 advance through our discussions and initiate land
4 and resource use studies with the communities.
5 Next slide please.
6 Through our engagement activities
7 and through our research and studies we’ve heard
8 concerns regarding each of these points, and I’ll
9 go through them very quickly.
10 So if we start off with the next
11 slide please, Jackie.
12 Wildlife is certainly one concern
13 that’s at the top of the list, and also one that we
14 heard from our engagement with Matimekush-Lac John.
15 Nalcor sits as an observer on the
16 caribou recovery team and is committed to applying
17 mitigation measures should construction proceed to
18 protect the health of the caribou herds.
19 Next slide. Thank you.
20 Fish of course being a very
21 important food source and the health of them have
22 been identified as a concern, and we all know if
23 you create a reservoir the potential for mercury to
24 accumulate in the fish tissue is real.
25 There’s many mitigation measures
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1 which have been identified through other hydro
2 developments which we have pointed to as being part
3 of our commitment moving forward and also engaging
4 in monitoring and follow-up plans to ensure the
5 protection of human health is a priority for Nalcor
6 with this project.
7 Next slide please.
8 Within the Churchill valley it is
9 unique in the region and therefore there are plants
10 that are uncommon elsewhere within Labrador, one
11 example of which, which has importance as a
12 medicinal plant for the Innu, is the Canada Yew.
13 Nalcor’s made a commitment, as an example of
14 mitigation that’s being proposed, to transplant or
15 relocate that plant species and then ensure its
16 propagation in a post-construction environment.
17 Next slide.
18 Again, mercury and the effect on
19 human health; it accumulates through the food chain
20 and if in fact to much fish with high mercury
21 concentrations is consumed, it can cause human
22 health risks to individuals and has the potential
23 of causing birth defects if gone unchecked.
24 One thing we heard through our
25 engagement was the effect on seals and how that
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1 moves through the food chain, and as a result of
2 that we’ve recently initiated a seal tissue
3 collection program that we’re going to do that we
4 are, I believe, in the process of setting up and we
5 will be executing this spring to give us some
6 baseline information and improve our understanding
7 of it so that if the project does proceed, we can
8 properly monitor and then manage through
9 consumption advisories, more likely than not, if in
10 fact a problem does start to show it’s going to
11 occur.
12 Next slide please?
13 As with all of the aboriginal
14 communities, we understand that the effect on
15 traditional lifestyle and land use activities is of
16 grave concern. There are a lot of developments
17 going on in Labrador and Quebec, and people want to
18 know if a development is going to affect their way
19 of life on the land.
20 We believe that through the proper
21 management and mitigation we can protect the health
22 of the caribou herds and ensure that other
23 traditional activities can still continue at the
24 same level in which they’re being pursued today.
25 Within the reservoirs, if they’re
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1 created, access to the shoreline will be
2 maintained, and from what our studies show us,
3 because of the nature of these reservoirs, people
4 will still be able to travel across the ice in the
5 winter with snowmobile, dog team, snowshoe, or in
6 the summertime by boat.
7 Of course, in that case, Transport
8 Canada certainly has told in previous presentations
9 to this panel there are activities and actions
10 Nalcor will have to take to ensure navigation is
11 maintained.
12 Also, the portages which exist
13 today would be reestablished in a post-project
14 environment.
15 Next slide please?
16 The archeological aspects of the
17 Churchill River Valley were early recognized of
18 being of significant importance and a lot of work
19 has been undertaken to get a good understanding of
20 what is there and identify areas that will have to
21 be looked at closer before construction is to
22 commence.
23 This slide outlines some of the
24 activities which have been undertaken. We can talk
25 about it in more detail if you have more questions.
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1 With respect to some of the
2 specific issues that we’ve been able to -- that
3 it’s our understanding are specific to your
4 community, we heard a couple of things.
5 And one was a concern that the
6 same partnership that was established with the Innu
7 Nation with Nalcor was not pursued with Matimekush-
8 Lac John.
9 Again, I would mention the effect
10 on traditional activities. That was a concern that
11 we understand is from your community as well and
12 the effect on caribou.
13 Now, unfortunately -- and I
14 apologize for this -- our caribou expert has had a
15 family situation arise and he is unable to be here
16 today. So if issues or questions specific to
17 caribou come up, we will do our best to try and
18 answer them now or else we will have to make
19 arrangements to provide you with that information
20 at a later date.
21 Now, this slide right here
22 outlines at a very, very high level, the estimated
23 capital cost of the development of both Muskrat
24 Falls, Gull Island and the interconnecting
25 transmission route or line from those two
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1 facilities up to Churchill Falls.
2 The peak employment -- and this is
3 over a period of about 10 years collectively --
4 would be around 2,000 people, most of those which
5 would be housed in a camp during the construction
6 period, and one of the reasons is camp is
7 identified as a very important mitigation measure
8 to offset some social aspects that are of concern
9 of the local communities.
10 Mr. Bennett here can speak in more
11 detail if there’s questions about the commercial
12 aspects of the project. And of course there is
13 training that is currently under way and should the
14 project proceed, Nalcor does have plans to ensure
15 ongoing opportunities and training are going to be
16 available for those interested in participating in
17 the job.
18 We can conclude now. And I’ll
19 just state very quickly that this is believed by
20 Nalcor and by the province to be -- the development
21 of these sites is in the best interests for the
22 long-term economic future for Newfoundland and
23 Labrador because of the availability of sustainable
24 and renewable power for generations to come.
25 A very important part of the
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1 planning is the commitment to monitor and follow-up
2 on the predictions. Environmental assessment is a
3 predictive tool. It’s a planning tool. And
4 predictions don’t always turn out the way you
5 thought they would.
6 So it’s important that we keep a
7 close eye and monitor the results of these
8 predictions and, if there are issues, take measures
9 very early to try and offset the negative effects.
10 With respect to engagement and
11 consultation, we have and we will continue to
12 provide opportunities. And we look forward to
13 hearing the information that you’re bringing
14 forward to this panel today.
15 Thank you very much.
16 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Thank you,
17 Mr. Burlingame.
18 For the information of the
19 audience, often after a presentation by the
20 Proponent, the panel has a series of questions, but
21 I’m sure you would realize and understand that over
22 the past 30 days, we’ve had many, many
23 opportunities and we’ve asked many questions of the
24 Proponent.
25 And we’re going to forego that
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1 today because our primary objective this afternoon
2 is to hear from the community.
3 And if you’d like to now, I’d like
4 to call the presenters from the community of
5 Matimekush-Lac John for your presentation.
6 And I’ve been told that we have
7 Mr. Rhéal McKenzie, the Chief, and Mr. Conrad
8 André.
9 M. McKENZIE: Start it now?
10 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Please start
11 now.
12 --- PRÉSENTATION PAR LA NATION INNU MATIMEKUSH-LAC
13 JOHN PAR M. McKENZIE:
14 M. McKENZIE: I’m more
15 comfortable to go on in French considering with the
16 translation. Thank you.
17 Out of respect for the Innu
18 language -- sorry -- pour le respect de la langue
19 Innu, j’ai des gens qui sont derrière moi, alors
20 j’aimerais y aller en Innu d’abord. On a chacun
21 nos langues respectives.
22 Je voudrais saluer toutes les
23 personnes qui sont à présent dans cette communauté,
24 dans cette salle, moi, en tant que chef de
25 Matimekush-Lac John, avec mon collègue Conrad André
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1 et je voudrais saluer toutes les personnes qui sont
2 présentes.
3 On va donner notre opinion en ce
4 qui concerne le projet de Churchill qui devrait
5 être fait par le Gouvernement de Terre-Neuve et
6 Nalcor.
7 Encore une fois, je salue les
8 personnes qui sont ici.
9 Nous sommes très heureux d’être
10 ici pour la première fois. Alors je me présente,
11 Chef Rhéal McKenzie.
12 À ma gauche, monsieur Conrad André
13 qui représente la famille André, en fait, du grand-
14 père Joseph André, qui sont une grande famille
15 d’enfants et de petits-enfants. Alors Monsieur
16 André a la reconnaissance de la grande famille.
17 André devra présenter sa famille.
18 Pour le chef, je représente la
19 communauté. J’aimerais peut-être -- j’aimerais
20 qu’on me montre, s’il vous plaît, la carte -- il y
21 avait une carte géographique. Je ne sais pas qui
22 pourrait faire ça, s’il vous plaît?
23 Je ferais une mise en contexte,
24 pour ma part, en ce qui concerne Matimekush-Lac
25 John. Depuis les deux dernières années, depuis la
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1 mise sur pieds, je crois -- corrigez-moi si je me
2 trompe, monsieur le président -- je salue vos
3 collègues, les gens de Nalcor -- que ces situations
4 ont débuté peut-être il y a deux ans. Alors je
5 m’avance à dire des choses comme ça.
6 Et j’ai eu des contacts avec une
7 certaine madame Elizabeth qui étaient à la question
8 du ministère de l’Environnement, si je ne me
9 trompe, où les premières informations qu’on a eues
10 concernant le projet de Lower Churchill pour une
11 approche de consultation, à savoir si on était
12 intéressé ou d’accord de participer à ces
13 audiences-là, en fait, au processus de
14 consultation.
15 Ce n’a pas été négativement quand
16 j’ai discuté avec cette madame-là. On a toujours
17 été ouvert au processus de consultation.
18 Le problème qui s’est présenté
19 chez nous -- en tout cas pour ceux et celles qu’ils
20 le savent pas parce qu’il y a bien des gens autant
21 du côté du Québec que du côté du Labrador
22 j’imagine, quand on parle de Matimekush-Lac John,
23 c’est une communauté Innu mais on la reconnaît plus
24 sous le nom de Schefferville.
25 Alors, ça c’est important de le
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1 dire parce qu’on me le pose souvent du côté Québec,
2 quand on dit Matimekush-Lac John, où est-ce que
3 c’est ça? Alors quand on dit Schefferville, c’est
4 très connu à cause de son histoire de mines à
5 l’époque de la Iron Ore autant chez vous je présume
6 où il y avait des gens du Labrador, de Terre-Neuve,
7 qui avaient trouvés des emplois dans les années
8 ’54.
9 Donc, le fait que je me présente
10 ici aujourd'hui, je sais pas si c’est dans les
11 dernières minutes de l’audience, parce que à un
12 moment donné j’imagine il faut retourner avec toute
13 la position du côté des Innus du Québec, donc la
14 mienne.
15 Je suis d’abord étonné d’être ici
16 où officiellement on m’a invité d’intervenir ou de
17 donner une lecture par rapport au projet Lower
18 Churchill.
19 Quand tantôt à la présentation,
20 monsieur le président, vous avez dit on doit
21 consulter tous les Innus que ce soit du côté
22 Labrador que du côté du Québec. C'est ce que vous
23 faites.
24 Contrairement -- parce que
25 j’aimerais voir ici -- je sais pas si je vais avoir
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1 une réponse tantôt de ce que je vas dire mais quand
2 on fait un processus de consultation, évidemment au
3 plan politique de votre gouvernement -- en fait, si
4 vous représentez le Gouvernement Terre-Neuve et
5 Labrador, peu importe le type de projet, que ce
6 soit d’ordre hydroélectrique, forestier ou mine.
7 J’imagine -- je la connais pas la
8 réglementation intégrale du Gouvernement de Terre-
9 Neuve mais tout type de développement sur le
10 territoire -- en tout cas si on parle du Labrador
11 -- la question que je me pose pour un projet de
12 développement hydroélectrique, j’ai eu une
13 invitation officielle de venir m’exprimer ici.
14 Contrairement au projet minier du
15 côté Labrador quand on parle de Labrador Iron Mine
16 et New Millenium Capital Corp. où on m’a pas invité
17 d’être consulté pour ce projet-là. Celle-là, je la
18 comprends pas.
19 Et pourtant c’est des
20 développements majeurs en termes d’étude impacts
21 environnementaux que ça va créer sur le territoire.
22 Alors je la comprends pas celle-là.
23 Alors j’ai eu du courrier de
24 Nalcor, des gens du gouvernement au niveau du
25 ministère d’Environnement où officiellement on me
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1 dit de venir ici. Et dans le cas au contraire les
2 mines, ni le gouvernement, ni les compagnies
3 minières sont venues me voir pour le projet initial
4 du côté Labrador.
5 Comme vous le savez -- je sais pas
6 indirectement, vous obtenez sûrement les
7 informations, c’est important ce que je dis ici
8 parce que y a pas deux poids, deux mesures dans
9 cette question-là.
10 Si on invite pour toutes sortes de
11 types de projets au Labrador, si on est respecté
12 pour venir ici pour amener notre mémoire, pourquoi
13 que les mines nous ont -- pourquoi le Gouvernement
14 de Terre-Neuve ne l’a pas fait avant l’émission des
15 permis d’exploitation?
16 Alors je sais pas autour de la
17 salle qui a la réponse, je le sais pas, mais je la
18 pose cette question-là. Je sais pas si vous voulez
19 répondre tout de suite, monsieur le président?
20 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Thank you,
21 Mr. McKenzie.
22 I’m not sure I can provide the
23 answer you’re asking with respect to why with the
24 mining company -- why not with the mining companies
25 but why is this project?
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1 But with respect to this project,
2 before the environmental assessment process starts
3 and before this panel was appointed, there was a
4 Terms of Reference that was established by both
5 governments after consultation with various groups.
6 And the Terms of Reference
7 basically described what was required of the
8 Proponent, of Nalcor, in order to do their
9 Environmental Impact Statement. And that Terms of
10 Reference was made public in 2008.
11 And in the Terms of Reference, it
12 required that -- there were certain provisions, I
13 won't go into the detail, but it required that the
14 Proponent, Nalcor, would be required to consult and
15 make known the details of the project and consult
16 with respect to land use with a number of
17 aboriginal groups.
18 This included three aboriginal
19 groups in Newfoundland and Labrador, Innu Nation
20 and the Inuit Nunatsiavut Government and the Métis
21 who are NunatuKavut and also with seven groups in
22 Quebec including your own group.
23 So this was provided in the Terms
24 of Reference that the Proponent had to respond to
25 in doing the Environmental Impact Assessment.
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1 When the panel was appointed in
2 2009, our responsibility is quite apart from the
3 Proponent. We’re appointed by the two governments
4 to do an independent assessment of the
5 environmental impact assessment of the
6 environmental aspects of the project.
7 And we were also given the
8 responsibility to -- as I mentioned in my opening
9 remarks, to ask specifically for information from
10 all of those aboriginal groups, information with
11 respect to their land rights and asserted rights
12 and treaties, et cetera.
13 And that information, we are to
14 receive from the aboriginal groups and to provide
15 it to the two governments and we cannot make any
16 determination with respect to that.
17 We were also asked under our terms
18 -- we have a separate Terms of Reference, our Terms
19 of Reference require us to do a full assessment of
20 the project and also requires to -- including the
21 use of lands by aboriginal groups for traditional
22 purposes and any impacts that the project might
23 have on your ways of hunting or your fishing or
24 your community life or your socioeconomic
25 expectations from the project, and to make
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 104
1 recommendations in that regard.
2 So in this project, the
3 requirement of the Proponent to have consultations
4 with your community were provided in the Terms of
5 Reference that had been decided by the two
6 governments and which I believe there must have
7 been some consultation with the aboriginal groups.
8 And in our Terms of Reference, we
9 were required to follow-up on to the Environmental
10 Impact Assessment.
11 I’m not in a position to give you
12 any explanation as to why a different procedure was
13 followed with respect to the mining project.
14 M. McKENZIE: Alors je -- ça va,
15 ça c’est votre explication. Contrairement --
16 probablement je -- entendons-nous ici, je viens pas
17 faire un débat ici, je viens m’expliquer par
18 rapport à ce que j’ai à dire ici.
19 C'est très, très important ce
20 qu’on fait ici parce que quoi qu’il arrive dans ce
21 projet Lower Churchill, il y a d’autres
22 développements au Labrador que le gouvernement
23 s’intéresse aussi.
24 C'est pour ça que quand t’as des
25 projets d’hydroélectricité, souvent ça peut avoir
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 105
1 un lien direct avec d’autres projets futurs comme
2 par exemple les mines. Si on a des usines à
3 installer, évidemment ça prend du courant.
4 Millenium Capital Corp. dans sa projection prépare
5 ces genres de construction-là.
6 Donc c’est ben important ce qu’on
7 dit ici, que si je parle des mines, c’est aussi
8 important que de parler Lower Churchill ou les
9 projets miniers dans la région immédiate de
10 Schefferville.
11 Alors ça c’est probablement votre
12 lecture ou votre explication concernant les termes
13 de référence comme vous m’avez expliqué qui est
14 probablement contrairement aux politiques --
15 excusez, oui?
16 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Let me just
17 add one additional thing that I didn’t mention.
18 That is with respect to our Terms of Reference and
19 our responsibility; also require us to look at the
20 cumulative effects of other projects.
21 So that is part of our Terms of
22 Reference as well to the extent that this project,
23 it has to take into -- the previous projects that
24 might have an impact -- a cumulative impact with --
25 this project might have a cumulative effect as well
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 106
1 as reasonably foreseeable projects in the future.
2 So from a cumulative effects point
3 of view, that is part of the responsibility of our
4 Terms of References.
5 M. McKENZIE: O.k., ça va.
6 C'est juste que j’allais --
7 j’allais juste dire -- le gros problème de droits
8 -- en tout cas si on parle des droits Innu, vous
9 savez que la grande nation est formée de 11
10 communautés Innus, donc on connait deux au
11 Labrador, Sheshatshiu et Natuashish; puis neuf
12 communautés au Québec. La nation au complet est de
13 11 communautés sur une population d’à peu près
14 22,000 membres.
15 En ce qui nous concerne pour nous
16 quand on parle de la question frontière
17 Québec/Labrador, évidemment dans la Nation Innue du
18 côté Québec, sur les neuf communautés innues,
19 celles qui piétinent tous les jours la frontière,
20 la ligne, c’est Matimekush-Lac John.
21 Que ce soit une chasse au caribou
22 comme le troupeau de la George, quand il immigre au
23 Québec, traverse la frontière du labrador, puis y
24 retourne au Québec. Ça été l’expérience qu’on a
25 vécue cette année pour la chasse communautaire en
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1 février dernier.
2 Donc, ça c’est une question qui
3 est importante aux yeux de Matimekush-Lac John
4 quand on piétine. La frontière nous a causé
5 beaucoup, mais beaucoup de problèmes entre les
6 questions de juridiction des provinces, que ce soit
7 votre gouvernement, et le Québec, c’en est une
8 autre, sans pour parler le gouvernement fédéral
9 pour les questions de juridiction autochtone,
10 questions de fiducie.
11 Donc, si on veut identifier les
12 droits territoriaux de ma communauté basés sur des
13 études de ce qu’on appelle la grande recherche,
14 "Grand Research", qui ont été faites dans les
15 années ’80 à l’époque ou le Conseil attikamek-
16 montagnais du côté Québec avait décidé de s’engager
17 à négocier un traité au même sens que Innu Nation
18 fait avec Terre-Neuve et le fédéral parce que si je
19 fais référence à New Dawn Agreement ou Tshash
20 Petapen.
21 Donc, à partir de ces études-là,
22 on parle des aînés de l’époque qui étaient vivants.
23 On parle de mes grands-parents, de son grand-père
24 ici, Monsieur André, de l’étude historique,
25 archéologique, occupation. On a toutes ces
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 108
1 données-là. On les a.
2 Ça c’est la question de preuve
3 d’existence puis de l’occupation.
4 Et ce qui concerne les droits
5 territoriaux des Innus pour Matimekush-Lac John, on
6 a 34 familles. Ça c’est bien important que vous
7 sachiez ça; 34 familles innues de Matimekush qui
8 ont des titres, un droit au Labrador. Parce
9 qu’avant la création de la frontière, la Loi
10 d’extension des frontières de 1927, y avait pas de
11 tracé. Donc le territoire était sans frontière.
12 Mais avec la création de la
13 frontière, on a séparé Matimekush de ses droits
14 territoriaux, comme on dit en anglais "half and
15 half"; moitié au Québec, moitié au Labrador.
16 Et comme j'ai dit qu’on piétine
17 tous les jours la frontière, alors c’est évident
18 que pour nous la question frontalière n’est pas
19 sous forme de reconnaissance, que ce soit par une
20 entente ou par un traité.
21 Revendication; je vous ai entendu
22 dans votre présentation que la revendication est
23 toujours là depuis l’époque des années ’80 quand on
24 a déposé notre "land claim process". Deux choses:
25 le territoire, la politique de revendication du
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1 fédéral demande le territoire, la superficie
2 territoriale, et le modèle de traité.
3 Donc, pour nous, la partie
4 fédérale, on devait inclure Terre-Neuve parce que,
5 comme je vous ai dit tantôt, la frontière on la
6 reconnaissait pas à l’époque.
7 Donc, ce qui a jamais eu de la
8 position venant du gouvernement fédéral de dire on
9 ne peut pas. On ne reconnaît pas la partie
10 Labrador; Terre-Neuve, oui, dans les années ’80,
11 peut-être avant.
12 Aujourd’hui, vous pouvez pas peut-
13 être non plus parler au nom de votre gouvernement
14 ni moi, mais ce qui fait en sorte quand on est tous
15 ici ensemble, vous avez suivi depuis l’année passée
16 la crise du caribou concernant le caribou forestier
17 versus le troupeau de la George; la manifestation
18 innue du côté Québec en février dernier; l’été
19 passée, les barricades contre les projets miniers
20 New Millennium Capital Corp. du côté Labrador.
21 Ce qui fait en sorte toutes ces
22 crises-là, surtout la crise minière à Schefferville
23 l’année passée, a fait résonner le Gouvernement de
24 Terre-Neuve en s’engageant -- et là je parle de
25 Monsieur Williams à l’époque, le premier ministre
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1 Williams -- où y ont décidé d’engager des
2 discussions en mandatant quatre sous-ministres de
3 front du Gouvernement de Terre-Neuve/Labrador:
4 Justice, Affaires autochtones, Environnement et
5 Ressources naturelles; quatre sous-ministres, ce
6 qu’on appelle "Deputy Minister".
7 Mandat gouvernemental qu’on
8 appelle venant des bureaux de premiers ministres,
9 et ça été la même chose du côté du Gouvernement du
10 Québec.
11 Qu’est-ce qu’on doit régler au
12 niveau du mandat de Terre-Neuve? Y a des
13 engagements par écrit.
14 De un, le futur protocole de
15 consultation, i.e. que ce soit mine, forêt, peu
16 importe le type de développement qui doit être
17 fait, le Gouvernement de Terre-Neuve s’engage avec
18 les Innus du Québec un "guideline" sur le
19 "consultation process". Ça c’est un.
20 Ressources naturelles, pourquoi?
21 Les deux compagnies minières qui doivent très
22 bientôt passer à la phase exploitation. Dans ce
23 cas-ci Labrador Mine, si je dis bien entente
24 "Impact Benefit Agreement" avec Matimekush-Lac
25 John.
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1 Normalement, Labrador Mine devrait
2 commencer ses opérations fin avril, ce qui est à
3 peu près deux à trois semaines d’ici où on parle
4 d’un premier train de minerai Schefferville
5 direction ici à Sept-Îles.
6 Donc, dans le deuxième engagement
7 à Terre-Neuve concernant trouver des solutions pour
8 éviter une autre crise aux mines présentement à
9 Schefferville du côté Labrador où Ressources
10 naturelles est impliqué donc le sous-ministre en
11 titre.
12 Troisième, le caribou. L’entente
13 sur la cogestion du caribou, du troupeau de la
14 George; troisième.
15 Et la quatrième c’est non moins le
16 plus important; le futur traité d’Innu Nation,
17 Tshash Petapen, puis traité c’est un engagement
18 définitif sur la question territoriale et des
19 questions économiques en gros et la certitude
20 juridique en ce qui a trait à la connaissance du
21 titre aborigène.
22 Donc, ces quatre engagements-là
23 qu’on n’a pas mis encore en place les discussions
24 mais qui a beaucoup d’échanges entre ces quatre
25 sous-ministres de ces ministères-là et les
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1 autorités -- en fait, je parle de la mienne -- et
2 de l’Alliance stratégique innue qui regroupe cinq
3 communautés, donc Romaine, Ekuaninshit, Uashat-
4 Maliotenam, Matimekush-Lac John et Pessamit.
5 De ce côté-là, les discussions
6 avancent mais on peut toutes les prendre de front
7 mais tout arrive en même temps; Lower Churchill,
8 New Dawn Agreement, mining. Tout ça, ça arrive en
9 même temps, "in the same time" comme on dit.
10 Et c’est pas des petits dossiers
11 parce qu’ici, on parle de la question du titre
12 aborigène que détiennent des Innus de ma nation.et
13 à l’affectation des futurs développements qui
14 concernent au Labrador.
15 Donc, ce qu’on doit bien noter de
16 ce que je dis ici c’est qu’on démontre que d’ouvrir
17 Terre-Neuve puis Labrador, ce qui a fait déclencher
18 tout ça je crois c’est je crois pas que c’est la
19 manifestation de la chasse au caribou en février
20 dernier parce qu’y a jamais eu rien par la suite.
21 Oui, le ministre de la Justice avait invoqué par
22 les médias que les Innus seront poursuivis parce
23 qu’ils sont illégals. Y chassent dans une zone
24 restrictive qu’on appelle Cache River.
25 C’est à peu tout rendu en février
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1 dernier et la crise a éclatée en juin dernier, tout
2 l’été. Et fin août, début septembre, fédéral,
3 Québec, Terre-Neuve, trois gouvernements en même
4 temps; 27 août 2010, appelle le chef, "Chief, let’s
5 sit down and talk. Welcome home." Trois.
6 Quatre fois je suis le chef dans
7 ma communauté, pas consécutivement parce que de
8 formation je suis pilote d’avion. J’ai été
9 licencié en ’79 pilote d’avion, Bush Airline;
10 18,000 heures de vol mon expérience, ce qui est pas
11 rien.
12 Le Voisey's Bay Project, j'étais
13 pilote là-bas dans le temps de Diamond Field,
14 l'exploration. Je les ai tous transportés ces
15 gens-là. J'ai passé l'hiver, l'été là, float, ski.
16 Le Labrador puis Torngat, le
17 tourisme, je le connais par la voie des airs le
18 territoire du Labrador à cause que j'ai été pilote
19 d'avion.
20 Donc, l'important qu'on doit dire
21 ici pour la position de Matimekush-Lac John, par
22 rapport à ce qui concerne, pour moi, c'est deux
23 méga-projets quand on parle de Lower Churchill pis
24 de mining à Schefferville. Que vous soyez d'accord
25 ou pas, c'est énorme comme question économique.
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1 Que ce soit des emplois de pointe
2 que vous avez mis dans votre présentation, 2,000
3 emplois sur 10 années pour la construction du Lower
4 Churchill. Quand on parle de New Millennium,
5 Labrador Iron Mine, à sa pleine production après
6 cinq ans, que ce soit au Labrador ou Québec. Parce
7 que vous le savez que c'est deux compagnies
8 minières-là vont traverser la frontière du côté
9 Québec. L'exploitation qui est dans la projection
10 du projet, pour le Direct Shipping Ore, on parle de
11 Labrador Mine, 23 ans d'exploitation; New Millenium
12 Capital Corp. 12 années.
13 Avec certitude en tout cas en ce
14 qui concerne New Millenium Capital Corp., on parle
15 d'une usine du côté Labrador, la construction.
16 Donc, 34 familles qui sont du
17 Labrador, le fait qu'on ait manifesté politiquement
18 notre position par rapport justement au fait que le
19 Gouvernement de Terre-Neuve nous ont pas invité à
20 nous consulter à prime abord avant l'émission du
21 permis d'exploitation de Labrador Ore Mine et New
22 Millennium Corp., la position de la communauté, il
23 était plus recevable le projet.
24 Parce que les mines de
25 Schefferville sont où je suis assis juste l'autre
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 115
1 bord de la rue. Everyday, on va les voir, le
2 mining train, tous les jours, comme l'Iron Ore. On
3 est directement affecté dans notre cour,
4 contrairement Innu Nation à Voisey's Bay away from
5 Sheshatsheits; contrairement à Uashat-Maliotenam
6 avec Thompson, away from their home, the Innu from
7 Sitsu (ph), Thompson; Matimekush-Lac John, just
8 beside.
9 À plus forte raison, à plus forte
10 raison de l'injustice qu'on a vécue. Québec non
11 plus est pas plus à la bonne position de le faire
12 mais à plus forte raison avant l'émission de ces
13 permis-là, on aurait dû être informé. Et c'est là
14 -- la position de la communauté est en désaccord.
15 Ça c'est le litige de la crise minière l'été passé,
16 c'est sur le constitution process puis question
17 économique.
18 La politique de Terre-Neuve sur la
19 loi sur les mines, 80 pour cent retombées
20 économiques au Labrador et 20 pour cent du côté
21 local. Je parle de ma communauté, Schefferville,
22 Innus de Matimekush-Lac John. Donc, ça été ça qui
23 a fait exposer la position de Matimekush-Lac John.
24 Dans ce cas-ci, Lower Churchill
25 quand on parle le réservoir Smallwood, Mishikamau,
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1 j'aimerais qu'ici qu'on me réponde -- peut-être que
2 c'est une question qui s'adresse à Nalcor, pour
3 Muskrat et Gull Island, dans 10 ans quand ces
4 centrales électriques sont construites, est-ce
5 qu'on peut me confirmer que l'eau ou le réservoir
6 qui va encore alimenter non seulement Churchill
7 Falls qui existe déjà mais pour les futures
8 centrales électriques, est-ce que c'est le même
9 réservoir qui va alimenter Muskrat et Gull Island?
10 Ça c'est la question.
11 MR. G. BENNETT: I think I can
12 answer that one. Seventy-five (75) percent of the
13 water that flows into the Lower Churchill
14 reservoirs originates in Churchill Falls through
15 Smallwood.
16 Oh, sorry, 75 percent of the water
17 that flows into the Lower Churchill reservoirs
18 originates in Churchill Falls.
19 M. McKENZIE: Donc, c'est 75 pour
20 cent du réservoir qui va alimenter -- qui alimente
21 déjà Churchill Falls. L'eau coule, le fleuve
22 Churchill Falls puis là il va alimenter les futurs
23 projets hydroélectriques.
24 Alors quand on dit ça, monsieur le
25 président, je le sais très bien qu'ici l'audience
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1 concerne la partie Lower Churchill. Tu as Lower
2 Churchill et tu as Upper Churchill qui,
3 probablement dans les années '60, quand on a
4 construit cette centrale hydroélectrique puis qu'on
5 créé ce réservoir-là n'est pas là pour ça. Enfin,
6 corrigez-moi si c'est pas ça, mais on est ici pour
7 Lower Churchill et non pas Upper Churchill.
8 Mais ma position, si 75 pour cent
9 du réservoir va alimenter -- qui alimente déjà des
10 centrales hydroélectriques existantes de Churchill
11 Falls, puis l'eau coule dans le fleuve, qui va
12 réalimenter les futurs projets centrales
13 hydroélectriques Gull Island et Muskrat.
14 Certes, les 34 familles que j'ai
15 parlé, monsieur le président, que leur territoire
16 ancestral, le réservoir que vous voyez là, c'est
17 aux Innus -- en partie, je dis bien, aux Innus de
18 Matimekush-Lac John et de Uashat-Maliotenam et ce,
19 avant la création de la frontière Québec-Labrador.
20 Non seulement ce que je viens de
21 dire ici, nous sommes à quelques semaines pour ne
22 pas dire quelques jours de l'accord politique de la
23 négociation territoriale globale des Innus du
24 Labrador, le Gouvernement de Terre-Neuve/Labrador
25 et le gouvernement fédéral en vue de la
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1 ratification du traité.
2 Très récemment, vous lisez comme
3 moi -- vous êtes informés, vous écoutez les
4 nouvelles, le Ministre Duncan, avant le
5 déclenchement des élections fédérales a annoncé
6 officiellement que l'entente entre le gouvernement
7 fédéral et les Innus du Labrador c'est réglé, il y
8 a une entente.
9 La seule chose que j'essaie de
10 comprendre quand on parle de Lower Churchill, la
11 différence de -- basé sur mon expérience politique
12 sur des traités historiques ou modernes, la plus
13 proche que je suis confortable d'en parler comme
14 exemple, la Convention de la Baie James du nord
15 québécois impliquant Cree, Inuit et Naskapi.
16 La seule chose que j'ai vue dans
17 le Land Claim Process, c'est que quand New Dawn
18 Agreement est venu au monde, ce qui a pas mal
19 déclenché ça c'est le Lower Churchill qui, à prime
20 abord, territorial en parlant c'est juridiction
21 provinciale, les provinces dont Terre-Neuve et Innu
22 Nation, pour voir si on peut s'entendre sur le
23 Lower Churchill between Innu Nation and Nalcor.
24 Voisey's Bay aussi en est un
25 exemple depuis juillet 2006 quand ils ont signé
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1 Voisey's Bay puis à l'étape production. On sait
2 très bien que des ententes minières, la seule chose
3 que j'ai pu -- que j'ai été surpris de voir, que
4 quand on ratifie, on signe ces ententes
5 économiques-là de niveau Impact Benefit Agreement;
6 la compagnie minière, Innu Nation et le
7 Gouvernement de Terre-Neuve, contrairement à
8 l'entente minière qui a été signée très récemment
9 il y a deux ans, les Innus de Uashat-Maliotenam, et
10 Consolidated Thompson. Deux parties; compagnie
11 minière et les Innus, pas de gouvernements du
12 Québec ni fédéral.
13 Donc, ce qui m'amène à vous dire
14 quand on regarde tout le processus des Innus de
15 Labrador, quand ils ont accepté la table de
16 négociation territoire global, c'est évident qu'il
17 y a eu des questions de chevauchement, d'overlap
18 issues comme ça a existé entre Labrador Association
19 Inuit et Innu Nation avant la signature du Traité
20 de LIA.
21 Le overlap issue entre Innu, entre
22 nations, on ne se le cachera pas, ça existe entre
23 Uashat, Mingan. Ça existe, mais pas la totalité de
24 tout le territoire en question. Des petites
25 superficies comme LIA puis Innu Nation avant que
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1 les Inuits signent le traité. Il fallait régler
2 cette question-là avant. Vous savez de quoi je
3 parle. Et ils l'ont réglé. Le overlap a été réglé
4 entre les Inuits et les Innus.
5 Dans le cas du réservoir
6 Smallwood, à peu près sept familles, dont la grande
7 famille André -- la grande famille André avait son
8 grand-père, monsieur Conrad Joseph André, Grégoire
9 André, Mathieu André, tous des frères, tous à la
10 même place mais le malheureux, soit la tragédie
11 c’est quand on a construit Churchill Falls, c’est
12 des “flooding lands”. Les territoires n’existent
13 plus. Ils sont inondés.
14 Et dans le New Dawn Agreement il
15 est prévu de l’entente entre Terre-Neuve, Nalcor et
16 Innu Nation de compenser le réservoir Smallwood
17 qu’on soit pas touché directement au projet Lower
18 Churchill sur la base du titre ou droit ancestral.
19 Certes, par la confirmation de Nalcor, 75 pour cent
20 proviendra du réservoir pour l’alimentation de ces
21 centrales-là. C’est évident pour nous, le droit
22 est fondamentalement touché et peut-être bien trop
23 tard parce que ces territoires-là sont inondés.
24 Non seulement ce que je viens de
25 dire, c’est que dans quelques semaines ou quelques
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1 jours, le futur traité Tsash Petapan va se
2 ratifier.
3 Ce que je sais de sources
4 d’informations à mon niveau concernant les
5 chevauchements, c’est qu’il y a eu, à la crise
6 minière, quand le gouvernement fédéral est venu
7 rencontrer les Innus de Matimekush, le Gouvernement
8 du Québec et le Gouvernement de Terre-Neuve et
9 Labrador, avec le sous-ministre de Justice,
10 monsieur Don Burrage, à la tête du mandataire de
11 son gouvernement.
12 Nous avons bien compris
13 qu’effectivement, s’il n’y a pas de règlement ou
14 chevauchement entre les Innus de Matimekush-Lac
15 John et les Innus du Labrador -- c’est pas moi qui
16 dit ça là -- on a quasiment une centaine de
17 personnes dans la salle.
18 En fait, la réunion avait eu lieu
19 dans une aréna parce qu’on n’a pas de salle
20 communautaire. Et quand on a posé au Gouvernement
21 de Terre-Neuve, on a dit, “Lower Churchill,
22 Smallwood, land claims, New Dawn Agreement, Tsash
23 Petapan, vous, comme gouvernement, quand Innu
24 Nation aura -- quand le référendum d’Innu Nation,
25 Natuashish, Sheshatshiu accepte le deal ou le futur
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1 traité, vous, comme gouvernement, allez-vous être
2 prêts à signer ou pas?”
3 Et le Gouvernement de Terre-Neuve,
4 via le sous-ministre de la Justice, Monsieur
5 Burrage, que tout le monde a entendu, la réponse
6 est “Non. S’il n’y a pas de règlement ou
7 chevauchement entre les Innus du Québec et les
8 Innus de Labrador pour leur futur traité, je ne
9 peux pas m’engager de mon gouvernement à signer ce
10 traité-là.” C’est pas moi qui dit ça, chers amis.
11 C’est pas moi qui dit ça.
12 Et l’exemple qu’il avait citée
13 c’est la même position entre les Inuit du Labrador
14 et les Innus du Labrador. Quand les Inuit étaient
15 prêts à signer le traité, il fallait qu’ils règlent
16 la question ce chevauchement entre elles.
17 Et c’est pour ça qu’aujourd’hui le
18 traité existe du côté des Inuit parce qu’ils ont
19 réglé le chevauchement entre elles.
20 Le gouvernement fédéral, qui est
21 signataire d’un traité aussi, alors vous, quelle
22 est votre position après avoir entendu votre
23 collègue, sous-ministre de la Justice Monsieur
24 Burrage en disant, “Le chevauchement doit se régler
25 d’abord”? Le gouvernement fédéral, même position.
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1 Pas de signature s’il n’y a pas d’entente de
2 chevauchement entre elles. C’est pas moi qui dit
3 ça là.
4 Est-ce que c’est vrai ou pas vrai?
5 L’avenir nous le dira, monsieur le président.
6 Mais certes, c’est une assemblée
7 publique là. Les gens l’ont entendu et c’est par
8 écrit, l’engagement fédéral. Parce que les gens
9 ont dit à leur chef, “Demandes au palier de
10 gouvernement de mettre ça par écrit, parce que
11 verbal, peut-être que je l’ai jamais dit ou j’ai
12 oublié de lui dire.” Alors ils se sont engagés.
13 Donc quand on revient sur le
14 dossier de Lower Churchill on a un problème énorme
15 au plan politique, pas juridique, parce que le
16 traité n’est pas encore enchâssé dans la
17 Constitution. Mais quand il sera enchâssé dans la
18 Constitution pour la protection constitutionnelle
19 d’un traité, sur la base de l’Article 35 de la Loi
20 constitutionnelle de ’82, c’est évident qu’il ne
21 sera plus politique mais juridique, parce que la
22 primauté des lois d’ordre municipal, provincial,
23 fédéral est la Constitution. Intouchable.
24 Nous le savons, monsieur le
25 président, parce qu’on a vécu la même situation
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1 avec la Convention de la Baie James. Nos droits
2 ont été chevauchés dans la Convention avec
3 l’application d’extinction du titre.
4 Ça fait 35 ans qu’on se bat
5 politiquement avec le Québec. De sortir les droits
6 des Innus de ma communauté pour ne n’a pas avoir
7 consenti l’entente de 1975 entre les Cree Inuit qui
8 ont créé le nord québécois et en ’78 avec nos
9 frères et sœurs Naskapi pour le nord-est. On n’a
10 pas consenti à ça, mais tout le territoire est pris
11 dans la Convention.
12 Est-ce qu’on va se permettre une
13 deuxième fois en l’an 2011 avec, cette fois-ci,
14 plus proche de 100, quand on de parle de “brothers
15 and sisters”, nos frères Innus, Natuashish,
16 Sheshatshiu en vue de signer un futur traité et
17 puis le overlapping n’est pas réglé, on peut pas
18 accepter ça. Tout ça pour des questions
19 frontalières, monsieur le président, à cause de la
20 question de la frontière Québec-Labrador.
21 Pourquoi le Gouvernement de Terre-
22 Neuve s’est déplacé en août 2010 contrairement à la
23 manifestation politique de la chasse, ce que eux
24 disent la chasse illégale, Cache River, February 2,
25 2010. Février, mars, avril, mai, juin, pas de
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1 téléphones, pas de lettres, que ce soit
2 d’accusations formelles parce qu’on est dans une
3 zone restrictive, rien, rien, rien, pas rien.
4 Et juin arrive; on fait une
5 barricade contre les mines. Pouf! Tout le monde
6 arrive.
7 Alors ma lecture à moi, entre la
8 question de l’animal, à nos yeux, qui est un animal
9 sacré -- le caribou pour les Innus, c’est sacré.
10 C’est fondamental. C’est le manger traditionnel de
11 la nation et puis il est question de subsistance.
12 Quand même il faut le dire,
13 monsieur le président, on nous avait été déclaré
14 dans la zone Cache River qu’on chassait
15 illégalement dans cette zone-là à cause de la
16 protection du caribou forestier qui, troupeau de la
17 George se mélange là-dedans parce qu’il est dans la
18 zone.
19 Personne a bougé. Et là ma
20 communauté bloque deux compagnies minières; tout
21 d’un coup, tout le monde débarque chez nous. Tout
22 le monde est prêt à rencontrer le chef. Ça, ça
23 veut dire, aux yeux de n’importe quel gouvernement,
24 monsieur le président, quand c’est du caribou, ça
25 rapporte pas au niveau économique, mais quand on
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1 parle de mines, les gouvernements bougent. C’est
2 ce que ça a fait.
3 Et c’est tout ça qui a déclenché
4 l’engagement de ces gouvernements-là et puis c’est
5 grâce à ma communauté Matimekush-Lac John qui s’est
6 levée debout, qui a dit, “On est tanné de pas être
7 reconnu, la chasse au caribou au Labrador, la
8 question économique, les mines, la question de
9 consultation.”
10 C’est ça qui est arrivé, monsieur
11 le président. C’est tout ça qui a enclenché le
12 processus. C’est la barricade des Innus de
13 Matimekush quand ils ont forcé les gouvernements et
14 après émission des permis d’exploitation et que les
15 compagnies sont arrivées là avec une barrière et en
16 septembre sont arrivées.
17 Alors je suis ici pour vous dire
18 ça parce que je crois pas dans un ministère
19 interministériel, peu importe le ministère que vous
20 représentez, peu importe l’audience à qui est le
21 patron de ce qu’on fait ici. Vous n’êtes pas censé
22 savoir -- quand on fait mandater quand même quatre
23 sous-ministres, c’est pas rien, dont le sous-
24 ministre Justice. On blague plus ici. C’est
25 sérieux.
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1 Comme un traité Justice Canada,
2 Justice Terre-Neuve, certitude, titre, définition.
3 Le gouvernement fédéral, c’est pareil. Québec
4 Justice, c’est pareil. Pourquoi on touche la
5 question d’aspect territorialité et de son
6 développement futur?
7 Donc ce qui m’amène à dire ici
8 quoiqu’il arrive à ce projet-là, on parle de bien
9 au-delà d’une question économique ici. On parle
10 des droits de mon peuple qui risque, s’il n’y a pas
11 d’entente, de chevaucher une deuxième fois Tsash
12 Petapan quand on parle du traité, une deuxième
13 injustice.
14 Donc les mines qui attendent notre
15 décision à Schefferville -- je m’avancerai pas à
16 vous dire ici assemblées publiques y a deux jours.
17 Two IBAs on the table, one for LIM, one for New
18 Millennium Capital Corp.
19 On est dans le processus de
20 consultation comme vous faites pour Lower
21 Churchill, cinq jours. Final step, referendum.
22 On a pas décidé quelle date, ça
23 pourrait être pas la semaine prochaine mais
24 fortement la semaine après.
25 Tout le monde -- les gens qui sont
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1 venus en août dernier, fédéral, Québec et Terre-
2 Neuve -- parce qu’il faut pas oublier qu’aussi le
3 gouvernement du Québec même si j’ai pas affaire à
4 parler du Québec ici, le plan nord c’est toute la
5 région du nord où j’habite. Que ce soit minier,
6 hydroélectrique, c’est tout interconnecté,
7 interconnected à cause de la frontière. Parce que
8 l’usinement, y en a autant au Québec, y en a autant
9 au labrador quand on parle là.
10 Donc, je sais pas quelle décision
11 concernant la décision qu’on doit prendre face au
12 projet minier. Je suis le chef, je suis l’autorité
13 mais mon autorité à moi c’est la communauté, la
14 démocratie. Alors y descendra par référendum si le
15 deal est bon, the IBAs, ou y est pas bon.
16 Ça m’inquiète, monsieur le
17 président, ce qui va se passer dans deux semaines à
18 cause des questions économiques, à cause des
19 questions d’emplois, à cause des questions de
20 contrats.
21 Comme on m’a expliqué dans
22 l’histoire de ma communauté si on parle pour les
23 mêmes projets, Voisey’s Bay, mes membres Innus de
24 Matimekush n’ont pas contesté le projet Voisey’s
25 Bay quand il y a eu un deal entre Innu Nation et la
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1 compagnie minière.
2 Comment expliquer qu’Innu Nation
3 signe des ententes minières dans ma cour chez nous
4 et prétend qui ont les droits. Quand moi je
5 regarde de chez nous, je vois les trous de mines de
6 l’ancienne Iron Ore, inexplicable, inexplicable.
7 Même du côté Québec, entre les
8 Innus de Matimekush-Lac John et mes frères et sœurs
9 Innus de Uashat, quand ils ont signé Thompson --
10 Thompson du côté de Fermont, sur la base y a aucun
11 sens des familles, de leurs occupations.
12 Ah, c’est un lot de trappe qui
13 vient de Uashat, quite right, go chief, quite
14 right. On s’est pas battu pour ça. On a pas dit à
15 Uashat, c’est à nous, (langage Innu), c’est à moi.
16 Mais comment expliquer Innu Nation
17 signer des IBA à two kilometres from my home. What
18 a mess and sad.
19 Trente (30) ans, from ’54 way up
20 to ’82, I use exploitation, production. They
21 didn’t even thank my people when they left the
22 town, left the building. Demolition, houses,
23 roughly 300 houses, arena, swimming pool, all
24 recreation centre, you can please kids for that.
25 They demolished the whole thing.
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1 We asked at that time, former
2 President, Brian Mulroney, ’82, wrote a letter,
3 monsieur le président, we need those houses, arena,
4 swimming pool. I’m not the government. Okay,
5 you’re not the government.
6 What happened two years after? He
7 was the Prime Minister of this country and I wrote
8 him again. Your memory said, I’m just the
9 president of the IUC, now you’re Prime Minister.
10 You said you’re not the government, you’re the
11 government now, help us.
12 I wrote one letter when I became
13 first time as a chief there in 1999, I was 29 years
14 old. A month before they decide to demolish the
15 whole thing. IUC said Quebec, federal, you Quebec
16 -- sept ans, roughly 300 maisons, nobody living
17 there, paying taxes on it. I’m set up, you got to
18 do something with these houses, give it to somebody
19 or now I’m going to have to demolish.
20 Federal, response for the native
21 issues, what's your position? No. Okay. IUC
22 decide, demolish the whole thing. Naskapi was not
23 affect, they had their own reserve 15 kilometres
24 away from Schefferville.
25 Us, the answer is yes. The
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1 sadness of that story when you wrote a government,
2 especially Brian Mulroney knowing our culture,
3 practice, Innu employees for many years on his
4 company including my dad, his dad, 23-24 years,
5 friendly people from Labrador. Kids were born
6 there. People from Labrador, Newfoundland find
7 works there, ’54 all the way up to ’82. I know, I
8 had some friends when I used to be young, their
9 family come from Labrador.
10 That’s why I should be thanks,
11 come on, that’s not the way. So that -- c’est pour
12 ça, à cause de l’histoire de tragédie comme ça que
13 ma communauté quand ils voient débarquer pas juste
14 une compagnie mais deux compagnies minières. Que
15 Iron Ore a fait le désastre écologique, pas de
16 compensation. Y ont démoli la ville.
17 Et le ridicule de l’histoire,
18 monsieur le président, le ridicule, mais c’est
19 vraiment incroyable, tous les astres qui étaient
20 enlignés pour qu’ils nous aident pour ça, à une
21 piastre la maison, 300, what a deal, 300 $ pour 300
22 maisons.
23 Y ont refusé tout ça et Brian
24 Mulroney m’a jamais répondu as a chief asking his
25 help to do something for us. Jamais. What a mess.
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1 Donc aujourd'hui -- quand ils ont
2 démoli toute la ville, une bonne partie de la
3 ville, Matimekush-Lac John a été agrandi dans le
4 territoire de la municipalité parce qu’on était
5 squeezé.
6 Non parce qu’on était pogné comme
7 petit territoire mais la ville de Schefferville
8 quand il y avait 3-4,000 personnes pis que tout le
9 monde est parti, y avait un problème de réseau
10 d’aqueduc, d’eau d’aqueduc. Parce que tout le
11 système, y avait une perte d’eau parce que les gens
12 étaient éparpillés dans le territoire de la ville.
13 Et on dit Matimekush, 600
14 personnes, the right answer, 100 quelques blancs,
15 Anglophones or Francophones, roughly 100 and 600.
16 Naskapi, they’re 15 kilometres away, they’re not
17 part of Schefferville, the town.
18 Donc la décision, on est accepté,
19 l’agrandissement, ben là 300 maisons. Oui, y ont
20 transféré ceux qui étaient déjà à Matimekush mais
21 le retard de pénurie de logement -- le programme
22 d’habitation du fédéral nous a retardé à cause de
23 4-5 maisons par années. How can I catch up the
24 behind?
25 On parle de une centaine de
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1 familles; y ont construit à cinq maisons par année.
2 Instead, qu’on aurait pu -- 300 maisons, on aurait
3 réglé le problème d’habitation des Innus de
4 Matimekush. Ben non, y ont démoli tout, le centre
5 récréatif, tout.
6 Et pourquoi je vous explique ça?
7 Essayez de comprendre ma communauté, entre , New
8 Millenium, Labrador Mine, show up in 2004 roughly,
9 to start discussion about their mining project,
10 donc ’82-2004.
11 Qui aurait pu croire ici dans la
12 salle -- moi le premier -- I grew up in
13 Schefferville; it’s the same thing -- que un jour,
14 pas une compagnie mais deux allaient débarquer à
15 Schefferville pour répartir les anciens sites
16 miniers de l’Iron Ore? Qui? Pas moi, 30 quelques
17 années plus tard.
18 Mais la communauté de Matimekush-
19 Lac John, dans l’injustice qu’elle vit, tout ce que
20 je vous dis ici, c’est tout de l’injustice; James
21 Bay Agreement, New Dawn Agreement, mining projects,
22 Newfoundland and Labrador government not consulting
23 us before they give the permit, and so on and on
24 and on. How can I explain here my position when
25 they don’t even ask me what I want to do here?
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1 Schefferville, il y a quand même
2 5,000 habitants in the best years. Who will keep
3 the town open? The Innu from Matimekush-Lac John,
4 because at that time, the federal government, he
5 wants us to send down here and close the whole
6 town. Maybe Naskapi was part of it to keep the
7 town open.
8 But certainly we were refusing
9 that position to send the whole community down to
10 Sept-Îles because we were trying the first time to
11 shut down the -- so meaning that, can you imagine
12 today, 30 years after, mining people show up again
13 to make consultations about the railroad, the
14 airport, the essential services? What a benefit
15 for them, eh? If we talk from ’54, Sept-Îles
16 railroad cross two provinces, Quebec and Labrador,
17 houses, water, you know. It cost a lot of money at
18 that time.
19 Innu Matimekush-Lac John decided
20 to stay there forever because of our rights, sir.
21 We’re born on that land and we’re going to die on
22 that land no matter what’s going to happen in our
23 future. It’s a history.
24 We’re not just talking here of
25 economic development from the government or Nalcor
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1 or Hydro-Québec and so on. We’re talking about
2 rights’ existence. People lived there and died
3 there, from our ancestors, grandfathers, fathers.
4 That’s why we’re here.
5 To make a note, no matter what’s
6 going to happen within two weeks when my people are
7 going to decide by referendum it’s a yes or no. If
8 it’s no, I’m just explaining why it would be the
9 no.
10 So indirectement, Lower Churchill
11 is affected directly. That’s why I raise the
12 question. If 75 percent of that water reservoir is
13 going to feed the two future dams, Muskrat and Gull
14 Island, certainly way before we decide to do that
15 major project, he’s got his grandfather -- the land
16 is under the water. They can’t even go back there
17 for hunting, fishing and trapping.
18 So that’s the thing. That’s the
19 story.
20 And to conclude -- sorry, sir, but
21 to conclude, à chaque fois que les Innus -- je
22 parle pas au nom de la nation, mais à chaque fois,
23 je ne sais pas, mais les autres chefs qui sont
24 venus parler avant moi ici, je suis à peu près
25 certain qu’il y a quelque chose qui doit ressembler
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1 beaucoup à ce que je dis ici, pour ne pas avoir
2 entendu les chefs qui ont parlé hier, que ce soit
3 de Mingan ou -- mais c’est l’histoire elle-même.
4 On peut pas nier nos propres droits quand on
5 existe.
6 Donc je conclus en vous disant,
7 monsieur le président, que je suis venu ici
8 verbalement, que les premières consultations qui
9 ont déjà eu lieues à Sept-Îles, pour avoir été
10 informé par mes collègues chefs Innus du Québec,
11 que ma préoccupation me permettait pas de me
12 déplacer à cause de la crise minière qui existait à
13 Schefferville. Vous allez me dire que c’est une
14 excuse, mais il n’est jamais trop tard. Je suis
15 ici devant vous maintenant, devant vous pour dire
16 ce que j’ai à dire ici.
17 Donc nous allons -- certes nos
18 aviseurs légaux vont avoir une réunion cette
19 semaine pour la décision qu’on doit prendre pour
20 les mines d’ici 10 jours.
21 On a accepté de venir ici et puis
22 on est très heureux de s’exprimer. On va tout
23 mettre ça par écrit et vous l’envoyer à vous. Vous
24 me le direz jusqu’à quelle date que je dois envoyer
25 le document ou le mémoire -- appelez-le comme vous
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1 le voudrez. Mais moi je fais juste un contexte,
2 une historique, mais ça va être écrit et on va
3 l’envoyer à qui de droit peut-être ici à l’audience
4 et ce sera ça.
5 Alors je veux pas arriver ici dire
6 juste que c’est verbal, mais il faut certes que ce
7 que je viens de dire, ça va être bien plus
8 important de le mettre sur papier et de l’écrire et
9 de voir qu’est-ce que vous ferez par rapport à la
10 décision qui devra être prise concernant le Lower
11 Churchill.
12 Alors de bien me comprendre que la
13 question économique de Lower Churchill, c’est une
14 chose. Mais que le droit a déjà été affecté dans
15 les années ’60 quand ils ont fait Churchill Falls.
16 C’est ça notre position, monsieur le président.
17 C’est qu’on peut pas être d’accord quand on voit
18 l’entente Tsash Petapan qui devait compenser Innu
19 Nation pour le réservoir Smallwood.
20 J’ai pas dit, et je suis pas prêt
21 à le dire non plus, que concernant Lower Churchill,
22 si j’ai droit directement ou indirectement, j’ai
23 dit que j’avais 34 familles qui ont des droits au
24 Labrador que la frontière a séparé en 1927 quand
25 ils ont créé la frontière Québec-Labrador. C’est
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1 tout ce que je dis.
2 Je ne dis pas non plus que Innu
3 Nation -- je conteste, quand y ont négocié Lower
4 Churchill, que j’ai mes droits là, peut-être
5 Mingan, peut-être Nutashkuan, peut-être Romaine.
6 Pas nous, mais notre droit existe plus. Il est en
7 dessous de l’eau, monsieur le président, under the
8 water, without our consent at that time. C’est ça
9 que ça veut dire.
10 Donc tenez compte de ce que je
11 viens de dire. C’est que Lower Churchill c’est une
12 chose; mais moi, c’est New Dawn Agreement qui
13 m’inquiète, messieurs.
14 Et le fédéral -- c’est important
15 ce que je vais dire ici aussi -- le fédéral, pour
16 votre information, dans les quatre sous-ministres
17 qui sont venus voir le chef à Schefferville du côté
18 Terre-Neuve et du côté fédéral, oui, le
19 gouvernement fédéral s’engage. Il va y avoir de
20 bonne foi, de bonne volonté, espérons le tous,
21 parce qu’on veut régler un chevauchement.
22 Il y a un chevauchement qui
23 s’appelle réservoir Smallwood. Who’s going to pay
24 that? Because we’re going to talk about
25 compensation here because you can’t use the land
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1 anymore.
2 L’autre territoire qui est intact
3 -- mining projects is one thing, but down the end,
4 des trous de mines in the future just like IOC did.
5 Mais il reste encore du territoire qui est pas
6 touché. Comment qu’on règle ça aussi ça?
7 Donc je suis prêt, comme chef, de
8 m’asseoir avec le fédéral, qui va financer ça --
9 c’est ce qu’ils disent -- nommer les équipes,
10 s’asseoir avec les Innus de Labrador, comme ils ont
11 fait avec LIA, les Innus de Labrador et puis les
12 comités concernés -- pas qui revendiquent, qui
13 confirment qu’ils ont des droits au Labrador.
14 C’est différent ça.
15 Je confirme, monsieur le
16 président, que j’ai des droits au Labrador de mes
17 membres et de mes familles que je représente comme
18 chef.
19 Et si vous voulez des preuves,
20 j’ai la grande recherche pour le prouver. Et c’est
21 pas moi qui dit ça; c’est nos ancêtres, nos aînés
22 qui peuvent vous dire exactement où leurs ancêtres
23 les ont enterrés, où ils ont -- no problem for
24 that. Je les ai.
25 Donc, cross fingers between my
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1 community to Innu Nation, sit down and talk; let’s
2 put our proof whose the land, yours or mine? I got
3 certainly it’s mine. Mining is mine. It’s my land
4 that’s going to be affected. Six hundred (600)
5 kilometres away, the Innu Nation; instead of two
6 kilometres. How it will affect directly the
7 environmental impact? I’m going to see it leave,
8 600 kilometres away from these people and no
9 rights.
10 I’m not scared to say this here,
11 because of what? Not because I'm a Chief, because
12 of the proof I have on my hand, based on my
13 ancestors, grandfathers and grandmothers, for their
14 answer was during for the last 30 years, for that
15 work and cost a lot of money, a lot of money.
16 Okay, so thank you very much. I'm
17 not mad. I'm just explaining my position.
18 But on top of the Lower Churchill
19 project, there's nothing more important to us, it's
20 the future treaty called New Dawn Agreement or
21 Tshash Petapen our concern is, you know, on a peur
22 un petit peu. On est inquiet.
23 Et la communauté, il faut les
24 comprendre, Matimekush-Lac John, la confiance --
25 pour avoir la confiance de Matimekush-Lac John, à
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1 titre d'exemple, comme les mines -- left the
2 building. My people say, "not again", "pas encore
3 eux autres", "not one, two mining, they're going to
4 be doing the same thing again. "
5 They're scared. Ils n'ont plus de
6 confiance. The way the history left my people that
7 time, plus developing issue on the Quebec side, so
8 government for them, m’hm, doubt. On the other
9 side of the border, same situation.
10 How can I hold my people as a
11 Chief, even if it was agreed for the economic
12 development, mining, hydro, whatever, name it.
13 When my people said, "Chief, I'm not sure. I'm not
14 sure, Chief."
15 That's what they said on my
16 general assembly two days ago. Understand that?
17 That means my people. If you lost a trust one
18 time, it's hard to get it back, I believe.
19 Thank you everyone.
20 Maybe if you'll permit -- I would
21 like maybe just to give a chance to my comrade to
22 say a few words, if you don't mind?
23 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: I was going
24 to make a suggestion to you first.
25 First of all, I would like to
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1 thank you very, very much for your presentation.
2 And the information is very important for the panel
3 and hopefully we'll get an opportunity, if you have
4 the time, to ask some questions of you.
5 I did want to make a point that I
6 had said earlier in my opening remarks, and it may
7 be that I misunderstood something you said earlier,
8 but this panel is a joint panel that was appointed
9 by the two governments, but we're not government
10 and we're not the Proponent.
11 We are appointed by the Government
12 of Canada and the Government of Newfoundland and
13 Labrador to do an independent assessment and review
14 and also to report back with respect to aboriginal
15 rights and titles on what we hear and that's the
16 kind of information that will go into our report.
17 So the information you provided
18 with this is very much appreciated.
19 I don't know how long your
20 presentation by your colleague, Mr. André will be,
21 but I was going to suggest -- one possibility would
22 be to take a coffee break first and then Mr. André
23 and then we would have some questions. If that
24 would work for you, that's what I would suggest?
25 M. McKENZIE: Oui, certainement,
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1 monsieur le président.
2 Je pense que ça va peut-être
3 prendre 10 à 15 minutes ce qu'il a à vous dire au
4 nom de la famille André. Je pense que ça vaut la
5 peine de l'écouter parce que c'est mon patron.
6 C'est pas moi le patron, c'est lui le patron.
7 C'est les Innus qui sont patrons.
8 Alors 15 minutes at the most,
9 monsieur le président, to express his view.
10 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: And you would
11 like to do that first before coffee?
12 M. McKENZIE: If you want to do it
13 now, I don't mind. He wants to smoke first so it
14 would be a good time to take a break.
15 (LAUGHTER/RIRES)
16 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Okay, that's
17 fine. So we'll come back at 3:45.
18 --- Upon recessing at 3:27 p.m.
19 L'audience est suspendue à 15h27
20 --- Upon resuming at 3:48 p.m./
21 L'audience est reprise à 15h48
22 M. McKENZIE: I have a joke. Can
23 I tell a joke here? It's permitted to make a joke?
24 If I stand up to you guys and what are you reading
25 on my coat? Maybe it's too far away from you guys.
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1 (LAUGHTER/RIRES)
2 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: You have to
3 be very careful because there may be nice Nalcor
4 jackets as well.
5 M. McKENZIE: Maybe just one
6 question before I give -- my brother is here on my
7 side.
8 Nalcor, I want just -- j'aimerais
9 -- what's the difference when I knew before was
10 Newfoundland Hydro today Nalcor? Because I'm
11 really confused. It's still a government society?
12 I don't know.
13 MR. G. BENNETT: Oh, yes, okay.
14 Thanks for that. Yes, we are still a crown
15 corporation. But we have -- we're actually, we put
16 a new energy corporation above Hydro. So Hydro is
17 a subsidiary of Nalcor, but one of the things that
18 Nalcor has is other energy businesses.
19 So, for example, the province's
20 oil and gas interest in the Grand Banks in the
21 offshore, so Hebron or the White Rose expansion or
22 Hibernia South actually held by Nalcor. So that's
23 one of the other business units.
24 M. McKENZIE: Okay. You just
25 changed the name and added some more energy?
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1 MR. G. BENNETT: Yeah, we put a
2 new parent above Hydro.
3 M. McKENZIE: Okay.
4 MR. G. BENNETT: And then changed
5 the name, yeah.
6 M. McKENZIE: Very good. Thank
7 you.
8 MR. G. BENNETT: Okay.
9 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Okay, fine.
10 So we will start this afternoon
11 proceeding.
12 Mr. André?
13 M. ANDRÉ: Je voudrais saluer les
14 gens qui sont ici. Je vais vous donner mon
15 opinion, qu'est-ce que j'ai appris de mes parents.
16 Je veux parler un peu de moi-même.
17 J'ai tout appris de mon grand-père
18 sur le territoire. J'ai arrêté l'école. La raison
19 pour laquelle j'ai arrêté l'école c'est parce que
20 j'arrivais pas à comprendre votre langue.
21 J'avais bien de la misère parce
22 que dans ma vie, j'étais tout le temps avec mes
23 parents -- mes grands-parents à Naskapi. Ils
24 s'appelaient Namzé Gabo (ph). Et un autre qui
25 s'appelait Napasis (ph). C'était mon grand-père,
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1 mes grands-parents Montagnais. Puis je les
2 écoutais tout le temps.
3 Lorsqu'on parlait des choses,
4 j'imaginais de quoi ils parlaient, leur mode de vie
5 qu'ils avaient avant. Je voyais qu'ils étaient
6 très heureux. C'était tout le temps beau. Il y
7 avait de l'entraide. On faisait tout ensemble. Ça
8 allait très bien, ça fonctionnait bien.
9 Mais aujourd'hui ce qui se passe,
10 ce qui s'en vient, j'ai de la misère à croire --
11 quand je viens ici pour la première fois, j'ai de
12 la misère à bien m'exprimer parce que le temps est
13 court puis j'étais pas assez prêt.
14 Mais peut-être que vous allez
15 comprendre pourquoi je défends mon territoire.
16 Pourquoi je suis venu ici, c'est pour que vous me
17 compreniez et aussi que je vous comprenne.
18 Je comprends qu’il y a un
19 éveloppement économique mais moi aussi de ce que
20 j’ai connu dans ma vie, y faut que j’y fasse
21 attention par respect pour tout ce que mes -- les
22 ancêtres qui vivaient avec les animaux, il faut que
23 je respecte la nature et la faune.
24 Quand on parle des choses, c’est
25 rare qu’on discute des animaux. On parle tout le
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1 temps des impacts environnementaux mais les animaux
2 sont pas -- on parle pas de la place des animaux
3 dans ces projets-là.
4 Quand je regarde ce que j’ai vécu
5 et appris de mon grand-père, il m’a montré comment
6 -- comment voyageaient les animaux, comment ils
7 élevaient leurs petits. C'est comme si je rentrais
8 dans la tête de l’indien tellement il connaissait
9 les animaux.
10 Aujourd'hui, tout ce qui a été
11 détruit, la terre, j’ai été élevé dans le bois par
12 un vrai chasseur, mon grand-père, mais aujourd'hui
13 il n’y a personne qui pourrait m’aider. Il faut
14 que je me défende moi-même en tant qu’Innu
15 concernant -- avec ma culture.
16 Tout ce que je vous dis ça vient
17 de mon cœur. Je peux pas donner à un blanc de
18 diriger, de parler pour moi parce qu’il me connaît.
19 C’est à moi de m’exprimer pour moi-même. Je sais
20 de quoi je parle. Je l’ai vu. Je me suis promené
21 partout.
22 On a été, moi et mon grand-père,
23 pendant un an dans le bois. On retournait dans la
24 communauté seulement l’été. C'était comme ça à
25 chaque année. J’étais très jeune lorsque j’ai
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1 arrêté l’école. Je comprends maintenant le
2 français mais je sais pas très bien l’écrire.
3 Mais aujourd’hui qu’est-ce que je
4 vais devenir parce que je suis pas très instruit?
5 Encore une fois mon territoire va être détruit, mon
6 territoire ancestral de chasse. Que vont devenir
7 mes animaux? J’ai pitié pour eux-autres parce
8 qu’ils ne peuvent s’exprimer.
9 Mais de la façon que je connais
10 les animaux, c’est comme si je parlais pour eux-
11 autres.
12 C'est pour ça que ce qui se passe
13 aujourd’hui, ce qui se passe dessus notre
14 territoire, je suis pas très heureux. Je parle
15 aussi de l’eau. C’est pas très beau. Pourquoi moi
16 je ferais du bien alors que je nuis à mes animaux?
17 Ça fait partie de ma vie les animaux.
18 Il faudrait prendre des fois --
19 lorsque vous faites des recherches, il faudrait que
20 vous engagiez des Innus parce que moi ce que j’ai
21 vécu, j’ai vu bien des choses. Aujourd’hui je
22 pourrais défendre bien des choses sur mon
23 territoire qui a été détruit.
24 Si je devais aller en cour, je
25 pourrais y aller parce que je pourrais prouver que
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1 j’ai été là. J’ai vu ça de mes yeux avec mon
2 grand-père. J’ai été très loin et maintenant
3 encore aujourd’hui je me promène sur le territoire
4 tout seul. Quand je vais dans mon territoire, je
5 suis tous seul. Je vois jamais personne.
6 Comme disait mon grand-père, il
7 avait de la misère à comprendre la situation. Il a
8 dit, "Comment ça se fait qu’ils essayent de nous
9 diriger? Moi, j’ai tout le temps été -- on le
10 connaît pas." Il reconnaissait pas les
11 gouvernements mon grand-père aussi. Il avait
12 jamais vu quelqu’un comme des blancs. Il avait
13 personne sur le territoire.
14 Ça fait pas longtemps vous êtes
15 là. Moi, ça me fait mal. Ça faisait mal à mon
16 grand-père qu’on soit ignoré, pas informé, comme si
17 les Indiens ne comprenaient rien de ce qui se
18 passe. On aurait pu vous informer beaucoup. De ce
19 que j’ai connu avec mon grand-père, j’aurais pu
20 vous informer en ce qui concerne la dévastation de
21 notre territoire.
22 Je sais que vous ignorez les
23 choses qu’on sait. Ça aurait été très important
24 que vous auriez dû prendre le temps de venir nous
25 voir puis trouver un moyen de -- puis il y a tout
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1 le temps des moyens de régler des choses, mais il
2 faut bien réfléchir avant de faire des grands
3 projets.
4 Si tu fais des choses comme il
5 faut, ça va bien aller puis ça va aller -- ça va
6 aller bien. Mais si tu fais des choses en courant,
7 tu vas perdre bien des choses. Tu vas perdre des
8 choses puis ça va être fait n’importe comment.
9 C’est pour ça encore une fois que notre territoire
10 va être tout détruit.
11 Moi, ce que j’aimerais que la
12 chose soit bien étudiée. Si vous avez besoin des
13 Innus en ce qui concerne l’environnement et en ce
14 qui concerne les animaux, je sais aujourd’hui le
15 caribou est malade.
16 Même les biologistes le disent que
17 les caribous sont malades, mais ils ont pas besoin
18 des Innus. Pourtant si nous autres on a les
19 connaissances, je comprends pas. La même chose en
20 ce qui concerne les eaux puis les poissons.
21 Je peux pas faire très long mais
22 je sais que vous comprenez ce que je veux dire. Si
23 on veut faire des choses, si on veut faire des
24 choses solides, il faut travailler tous ensemble,
25 ensemble, ensemble.
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1 Sais-tu pourquoi je dis ensemble?
2 Si on travaille ensemble, ça va aller plus vite,
3 pour aller plus vite, mais si on n’est pas
4 ensemble, si on nous met encore une fois de côté,
5 je pense pas que ça aille plus vite parce que nous
6 autres on va les empêcher de tourner en rond.
7 J’ai pas le choix de bloquer les
8 choses, de me battre même s’il le faut. Même si je
9 bloque pas les choses, je me vois comme quelqu’un
10 comme un clochard. C’est ce que je vais devenir si
11 je défends pas mon territoire.
12 Mon territoire c’est ma richesse
13 mais j’ai jamais reçu une cenne de mon territoire
14 mais juste le fait d’être sur mon territoire je
15 suis riche, je suis bien. Comme le disait mon
16 grand-père, tu vas être capable de subvenir à tes
17 besoins.
18 Si vous brisez ce territoire, est-
19 ce que vous allez me regarder de quoi je vais
20 vivre? Puis ceux-là de la génération future,
21 comment ils vont être traités s’il n’y a plus rien
22 comme richesse naturelle ou bien comme richesse de
23 souvenirs?
24 Si vous sortez toutes les roches
25 et vous les amenez ailleurs, qu’est-ce qui va
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1 rester? Qu’est-ce qui va rester? Ça va être les
2 choses perdues. On va tout perdre. S’il y a du
3 développement sur le territoire, il n’y a personne
4 qui va montrer à nos jeunes comment aller sur le
5 territoire chasser.
6 Une fois tous ces développements
7 finis, ça va être encore -- ça va être tous des
8 trous encore une fois. Ils sont en train
9 d’éteindre nos droits, notre culture, notre savoir.
10 Ils sont en train de nous enlever pas mal de
11 choses. C’est des choses que vous auriez dû
12 réfléchir avant de détruire.
13 Vous avez encore le temps
14 aujourd’hui. Il y a encore des aînés qui sont
15 capables. Il a encore moi aussi -- je suis capable
16 d’aller sur la nature. Je me prends aujourd’hui
17 comme quelqu’un de très instruit en ce qui concerne
18 l’université du territoire comparativement à vous
19 autres qui avez été à l’école.
20 J’aimerais aujourd’hui -- on
21 pourrait peut-être faire ce projet mais c’est entre
22 vos mains et vous devez quand même nous écouter et
23 prenez bien le temps parce qu’il y aura encore un
24 lendemain demain puis après ça aussi.
25 C’est tout ce que j’avais à vous
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1 dire pour le moment. Je ne peux pas me -- si vous
2 voulez savoir d’autres choses, ça va me faire
3 plaisir de vous le dire.
4 Merci beaucoup.
5 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Thank you
6 very much, Mr. André and we'd like to -- I'm sure
7 that we have questions for either of you or both of
8 you.
9 And I'll ask my colleagues if they
10 would like to start. Meinhard?
11 --- QUESTIONS BY THE PANEL:
12 MEMBER DOELLE: Well, thank you
13 both very much for your presentation. I have
14 certainly learned a lot about your community.
15 My first question is with respect
16 to the upcoming referendum. I'm wondering whether
17 you can tell me whether you have any commitment
18 from the mining company, the Government of
19 Newfoundland, the Government of Quebec or the
20 federal government to respect the results of the
21 referendum.
22 M. McKENZIE: Très bonne question.
23 Je vais essayer de répondre du mieux que je peux
24 avec la position du Gouvernement de Terre-Neuve et
25 Labrador par rapport aux compagnies minières.
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1 Vous savez sans doute que dans une
2 négociation vers un "Impact Benefit Agreement",
3 normalement dans les procédures c’est toujours deux
4 parties en cause; First Nation and mining company,
5 normal des choses.
6 Parce que toutes provinces dans
7 leurs politiques -- parce qu’on parle de questions
8 économiques et non pas de titre. Donc, comme vous
9 le savez les compagnies minières ont pas le pouvoir
10 de négocier un titre; donc ça appartient à la
11 Couronne de régler cette question. Ce qu’on
12 appelle "royalties", la richesse.
13 Donc, le prochain référendum qui
14 va être place d’ici 10 jours, ce que je peux vous
15 répondre pour la position du gouvernement de Terre-
16 Neuve et Labrador -- parce que bon, c’est le
17 gouvernement, c’est la Couronne, c’est lui qui émet
18 le permis d’exploitation, puis je reconnais comme
19 chef de l’effort que le gouvernement a fait.
20 C'est-à-dire, si je compare la
21 compagnie, LIM deux ans avant ont déjà signé une
22 entente IBA où le gouvernement de Terre-Neuve n’est
23 pas venu nous informer d’abord dans un processus de
24 consultation, pour des questions politiques puis de
25 reconnaissance de droits puis la frontière
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1 Québec/Labrador; donc, deal done two years ago.
2 New Millennium Capital Corp., no
3 deal yet with Innu Nation from Labrador. Donc, le
4 gouvernement de Terre-Neuve et Labrador dans cette
5 question-là, like we said, they were willing for
6 the Mining Act not to change it par rapport à la
7 question retombées économiques du Labrador. On
8 parle d’emplois au Labrador, le contrat
9 d’approvisionnement.
10 Donc, pour la négociation New
11 Millennium et vous, monsieur le chef, je peux
12 baisser le standard de la Loi sur les mines, invite
13 you guys, the Mining Act, I think it’s Section
14 31.1, Article, Act.
15 C’est l’article 31.1 de la Loi sur
16 les mines au Labrador, que le gouvernement de
17 Terre-Neuve a passé un décret sous la gouverne de
18 Monsieur Williams, parce qu’on parle y a deux ans
19 avant là, et maintenant c’est 60-40, mais si vous
20 allez voir la Loi sur les mines concernant le
21 gouvernement du Labrador, vous le verrez pas le 60-
22 40.
23 Mais le gouvernement ce qu’y
24 essaie de faire ou qui a essayé de faire, y a dit à
25 New Millennium Capital Corp., “The deal has to be
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1 60 percent Labrador about contract jobs and so on
2 and 40 percent for the local people, First Nation”,
3 my community, instead 80/20 two years ago with LIM.
4 But considering LIM and Innu
5 Nation from Labrador, I just can’t break the deal
6 because someone is going to sue someone if I break
7 down the deal done two years ago.
8 So that’s what Newfoundland and
9 Labrador government give it to us if we can accept
10 it. So 80/20 between LIM and Innu Nation and New
11 Millennium Capital Corp. and us, 20 more percent;
12 so we went up to 40 percent. And 40 percent has to
13 cover contracts because we do have some companies
14 or partnership.
15 And don’t forget contracts it’s
16 very important to have it because, like I said,
17 those mining companies are not going to own the
18 whole town and the equipment. They give that as a
19 contract. If you don’t have the contract, how can
20 you create jobs if you don’t have the contracts?
21 Just like Innu Nation did with
22 Dexter Innu Municipal Partnership, contract with
23 LIM and Labrador people and native and non-native.
24 So that’s a touchy, very touchy issue because
25 people wants the jobs toward my home; that’s
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1 normal.
2 So based on the next referendum
3 that’s going to be put in place, not this week the
4 week after, I don’t want to give an answer here on
5 what's going to happen. But my feeling, consider
6 about both Impact Benefit Agreement, certainly on
7 LIM because they can't change anything now; even
8 the government can't change anything like he said.
9 But the only chance you have for
10 the next one it’s to raise up your 20 up to 40.
11 Looks to see difference between
12 the two deals, of course New Millennium Capital
13 Corp. because of the 40, but put it to my people if
14 it is enough acceptable, to accept both deals on
15 the table, one base 80/20 and the other one 60/40.
16 I don’t know if I properly
17 answered your question but I feel scared, to be
18 honest with you. Not just because just the mining
19 think, the people, their mind, is on the treaty,
20 that’s the -- the mining thing locally, home it’s
21 one thing.
22 What's going to happen 40
23 kilometres away on the Labrador should another
24 mining company show up? It is going to be First
25 Nation, the Innu from Labrador first? Because the
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1 treaty, the recognition of a treaty, I think the
2 answer is yes. We may put in -- back again because
3 of the treaty.
4 And don’t forget, guys, when we
5 talk about the two mining people directly in
6 Schefferville, this week I was sitting in my office
7 and I can see the airport from my office. The last
8 time I saw a jet 737, a Boeing 737, when they shut
9 down the mine in 1982.
10 But two years before 1980, that’s
11 the last one that landed in Schefferville, a jet.
12 Because we’re closing, the IUC shutdown.
13 Last Monday, a jet -- a Boeing
14 737, I can recognize the plane because I’m a pilot,
15 so I know the type of the aircraft; so three jets,
16 cargo jets, piled on the airport. Not for a New
17 Millennium Capital Corp.; Century, Champion,
18 Western Troy, mining exploration companies starting
19 to charter planes and I was very, very shocked.
20 Not shocked because I saw the
21 jets; it’s because it’s been over 30 years we
22 didn’t see a jet landing in Schefferville, that was
23 my feeling.
24 But what that means what I said
25 here, it’s -- there's lots of exploration going on
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1 on Labrador and on the Quebec. Like I said, we’re
2 sitting on the border. So those mining companies
3 don’t mind the border. They’re just looking for
4 nickel, copper, gold, ore.
5 So it’s going more than what we’re
6 going to decide within 10 days here by referendum.
7 It’s a concern too for exploration stage, what we
8 have, what they’re doing now and if they’re going
9 to exploitation, but there we go?
10 So I don’t know, my friend, how
11 that thing is going go but knowing my people,
12 knowing what's on it on the deal, knowing for the
13 jobs and contracts, I feel scared. I just can't
14 say it’s going to be yes, tight, or no, tight.
15 But concerning what I heard at
16 General Assembly, I’m not feeling good. I’m not
17 feeling good.
18 MEMBER IGLOLIORTE: A quick
19 follow-up. Can you give me a sense of what happens
20 if the answer is no?
21 MR. McKENZIE: I don’t want to say
22 war but -- no, what we have only -- the only thing
23 we have to force or make more pressure to the
24 governments, two ways; court case for how long I
25 don’t know based on our title because I can -- I
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1 just can go in junction against the Lower Churchill
2 whatever because the process I inherit, I can blame
3 the government or Nalcor not doing their job, not
4 consult us, right?
5 I’m here. What else do I have?
6 The title, aboriginal title. That’s one thing. Or
7 the other way, once again go back to the
8 barricades. What can I say? People is the people.
9 Ninety-nine point nine (99.9) percent Native people
10 live there; 100 non-Native, and on the 100 non-
11 Native, I would say 70 non-native work for the Band
12 Council, half for Naskapi, half for me, teachers,
13 nurses. So they’re on behalf of my authority. So
14 they’re not really touched if something happens.
15 But certainly the 25-30 non-
16 Native, there’s a few Labrador people there. To be
17 honest with you, there’s one Labrador married to
18 one Innu from there. So it’s part of the
19 community.
20 But not touching about my
21 authority based on their jobs -- the jobs --
22 there’s about 30 non-Native hoping, waiting if the
23 referendum passes, that somebody is going to be
24 considered to get jobs there.
25 But the impacts, it’s my community
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1 wanting jobs for this and that. So that’s the two
2 ways, and it’s not a big surprise.
3 You seem some court cases coming
4 from First Nations. You see some other First
5 Nations using political pressure, blocked roads,
6 this and that. I mean, it’s not a secret here. I
7 did last summer.
8 So I don’t guarantee if the people
9 are going to stand up again if the referendum says
10 no; they’re going to do the same thing, because the
11 people said they left the town. We own the town.
12 So for down the road, if we do that, if it is, this
13 time, how the government is going to take that?
14 Not just the Newfoundland government, Quebec is
15 already looking at that because of the Plan Nord.
16 I don’t know if you heard that
17 one, but the Plan Nord is what I saw this week,
18 three or four jets bringing up heavy equipment.
19 Plan Nord is more on the Quebec
20 side. But there’s a lot of prospecting going on
21 there. The Plan Nord, it includes mining projects
22 and two dam projects. It’s not a secret here. We
23 don’t have the documents to confirm that, but we
24 know what’s happening.
25 Those kind of jets coming up
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1 there, it’s not coming just for my eyes -- they’re
2 coming there to do something. We’re not stupid,
3 everyone. So something going on there. The
4 people, if they say no, they might be saying no for
5 the rest of the people coming up there. Who knows?
6 Schefferville, on the Quebec side,
7 it’s the Plan Nord. Why? The railroad is
8 existing. The 40 kilometres, they’re going to find
9 a mine, no matter what kind of mineral. They’re
10 going to have to take that mine to ship it
11 somewhere. Where are they going to pass? There’s
12 only one railroad there. Just like what LIN’s
13 going to do. Just what New Dawn’s going to do.
14 They’re going to use the one. And
15 part of that railroad, we own it now, as you know,
16 the whole Labrador side. So it’s a major thing.
17 It’s a major thing. It’s not a game, guys. It’s a
18 very heavy political issue.
19 But $300 million investment
20 already the both mining companies invested for the
21 last three years. It’s money. They see again Innu
22 blocking the roads. I’m sure they’re not going to
23 be happy, eh, for the investment they did there.
24 Not just that, the stock market. I invite you guys
25 to look at the stock market, $14, iron. I’ve never
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1 seen that in the past.
2 Thompson is on production right
3 now, the one on the Quebec side -- Consolidated
4 Thompson, 17 on the stock market.
5 And Labrador Iron Mine, not even
6 start his production, 14. What do you think when
7 you see the Native crisis is going to do to the
8 stock market? Everybody has the answer, right? Go
9 down. Investors, too risky.
10 I’m sitting here not to have
11 rights, and I don’t want to do that. But I ask
12 something to be served first, my people. I don’t
13 want to spend like the whole summer I did last
14 summer, standing there beside the road. I got
15 something else to do. But give me the best deal we
16 can do and please my people first. Maybe the
17 people are going to say it’s fine; it’s a deal.
18 I’m really scared, my friend, for
19 your question. I feel scared. But we’re going to
20 have to wait for the day of the referendum, and
21 right now what’s happening, there’s a lot of
22 rumours going around, as you know, a lot of rumours
23 going around because of the general assembly,
24 because people in town, the employees from Nain,
25 non-Natives coming from Labrador, because there’s a
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1 lot of non-Native working there now.
2 The people from Goose Bay, Wabush
3 and Labrador City, Dexter, you know where this
4 company comes from? One of his head offices is
5 based in Wabush. I mean, people, there’s tension
6 on both sides and especially people from Toronto,
7 the mining people and also, I believe, the
8 government.
9 Because this thing there I have on
10 my hand, a lot of messages there now. I’m sure
11 there’s government there. “Chief! Chief! Chief!
12 What’s going to happen?” Just like what you ask.
13 I’m sure because of the general assembly. Danger.
14 That’s all I can say.
15 But we’ve got to wait to resolve
16 the referendum, not next week, but the week after.
17 Good enough?
18 MEMBER DOELLE: Thank you very
19 much.
20 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Lesley?
21 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Well,
22 thank you.
23 I think we’re all -- our brains
24 are ---
25 M. McKENZIE: That excited, eh?
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1 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Oh no,
2 what I’m saying is our brains are kind of like
3 whoa, trying to keep up with you. That’s the big
4 challenge. I think we’re all feeling it.
5 And I want to ask you, and I think
6 I’d like to ask Mr. André too for his thoughts
7 about this because -- and excuse me if the question
8 isn’t very good, because as I say, I’m not -- I’m
9 still working to understand the dimensions of this.
10 This is big stuff you’re telling me, right?
11 So you’re talking in the first
12 instance about these two future mining projects,
13 but you’re also indicating -- and you’re talking
14 about what’s the community going to decide about
15 those in terms of a referendum and the deal and so
16 on.
17 But you’re also telling us that
18 there’s just a whole pile of stuff possibly
19 barrelling down on your community in the future.
20 Is that right? I mean, many, many possible
21 developments out there, not far away.
22 And, Mr. André, you talked about
23 the sort of cumulative loss that you’ve seen and
24 experienced. Actually, at some point, I need to
25 ask you about your 34 families, but let’s just hang
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 166
1 on for a minute.
2 What I’m trying to think about is
3 we’re doing an environmental assessment for Lower
4 Churchill and one of the things you have to address
5 in environmental assessments is the cumulative
6 environmental effects of this project in
7 combination with past projects and in combination
8 with future projects, right?
9 Panels are never meant to express
10 an opinion, but I’m going to break ranks a little
11 bit and just say -- or no, I wont -- I won’t
12 express opinion.
13 But I’ll say that other people
14 have expressed an opinion -- that’s a safe way --
15 that -- or maybe even the Proponent would agree
16 that it’s very, very difficult that an individual
17 environmental assessment -- it’s a very difficult
18 tool. It’s not a very good tool for dealing with
19 overall with cumulative environmental effects. I
20 mean, we can study it, but you can’t -- you know,
21 there needs to be some other way to address this.
22 But I would just like to ask you
23 for anything you can say bout your concerns or your
24 views about what your community is facing in the
25 future in terms of the effect -- the final effect
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1 if any number of these future mines come about in
2 combination with what you’ve already got, in
3 combination with the Upper Churchill damage that
4 was done, and in combination with the Lower
5 Churchill project, should it go ahead?
6 Can you reflect a little bit on
7 that, what you see for your community if all of
8 these things start to happen together and if there
9 is -- if you have some ideas about a better way to
10 deal with these things than just talking about them
11 one project by project. Is that -- is my question
12 reasonably clear?
13 M. McKENZIE: Je dirais que oui,
14 mais il y as-tu juste une seule question à votre
15 préoccupation? Juste pour la mettre encore plus
16 simple, j’aimerais que vous me la mettiez un petit
17 plus simple, pour bien comprendre votre question,
18 madame.
19 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: I often
20 get asked to simplify my questions so this is --
21 I’m kind of used to this. I should, I should.
22 What future do you see -- and Mr.
23 André as well -- what future do you both see for
24 your community if not only the two mining projects
25 immediately facing you, but there are a
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1 considerable number of other mining projects plus
2 if the Lower Churchill went ahead, can you tell me
3 what you think the overall effect of that would be
4 on your community in the long term? First
5 question.
6 Second question, is there a better
7 way to address this kind of combined impact than
8 just looking at each project as it comes along, one
9 by one?
10 M. McKENZIE: O.k., merci. Je
11 vais répondre à la première parce que c’est la
12 première, parce que dans votre première question
13 vous me parlez de futur, l’avenir.
14 Le seul avenir où -- pis c’est pas
15 juste Matimekush-Lac John, c’est à travers le pays.
16 It’s a national level question. Quand on parle
17 d’avenir pour des générations futures, mes enfants,
18 nos petits-enfants, c’est ça l’avenir.
19 C'est le traité. Il faut qu’on
20 règle la question territoriale et les questions
21 économiques. C’est le fondement même des
22 gouvernements, l’économie, les richesses, ça c’est
23 mon avenir pour moi, mon espérance, pour bâtir un
24 avenir.
25 Et une fois qu’on signe un traité
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1 -- comme dans le cas des Innus de Labrador, comme
2 bien des traités existants au Canada, from west to
3 east coast, quand c’est réglé, ça veut pas dire
4 qu’il n’y aura pas de problèmes à l’interne,
5 toujours.
6 Mais certes il n’y aura plus de
7 menaces parce que c’est un traité. On a réglé la
8 question fondamentale du territoire et de ses
9 ressources naturelles. En matière aussi, il ne
10 faut pas oublier la faune, l’environnement, bon, so
11 on and on.
12 Ça c’est ce que je pourrais vous
13 répondre, madame, quand vous parlez de futur.
14 Dans le quotidien, day to day,
15 comme exemple, New Millennium, comme peut-être 40
16 kilometres Western Troy, okay, exploration stage,
17 là, là, on Labrador side, oops, Quebec side too.
18 Toutes ces compagnies
19 d’exploration là, dans l’immédiat -- comme
20 l’exemple de LIM, New Millennium for impact
21 benefits agreement, si on pourrait atteindre les
22 objectifs pis l’espérance que la communauté accepte
23 ces deals-là, oui, on peut vivre là-dessus, mais ça
24 règlera pas les autres compagnies minières, peu
25 importe which way on the border they are, à cause
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1 qu’il n’y a pas de règlement définitif sur le
2 territoire.
3 Innu Nation, quand ils vont signer
4 le traité, it’s done. Not just for one mining
5 project or hydro project or forest, done. Je pense
6 pas qu’on voit First Nations, quand ils ont des
7 traités dans les mains que ceux qui ont pas de
8 traités, like I said, two ways, court case or
9 political level positions, barricades, whatever.
10 Ça c’est défini dans le traité ça,
11 à cause de la reconnaissance du titre, de la
12 certitude juridique.
13 Donc, pour ma part, l’inquiétude
14 de la communauté de Matimekush-Lac John, c’est que
15 tantôt on voyait le caribou quand que Nalcor a dit,
16 « Il faut aussi tenir de l’environnement pis de la
17 faune. »
18 Est-ce que dans la consultation
19 que Terre-Neuve -- pour la première fois de son
20 histoire, ici à Uashat il y a mid-February, les
21 quatre Deputy Ministers que j’ai nommés, they were
22 faced to the Chief to recite the result of the
23 caribou herd, the George River herd.
24 Pis comme le Québec aussi, on
25 avait deux consultations, Labrador, Québec.
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1 Et la faune, quand on parle
2 d’avenir, c’est pas juste des jobs que les Innus
3 veulent, c’est qu’aussi leur alimentation
4 traditionnelle, le poisson, le caribou, ça c’est
5 dans la culture, c’est dans le sang des Innus.
6 Donc l’inquiétude qu’on fait des
7 barrages hydroélectriques, qu’on fasse des mining
8 projects, 1992-93, 774,000 le troupeau de la
9 George, estimated. Nine years after 2001, 335,000,
10 half of the herd. And today, up to today, 74,000.
11 Something happened there.
12 But the explanation from the
13 government, both governments, not just the
14 Newfoundland government, Quebec, the real reason
15 they said, le manger, l’habitat, trop nombreux.
16 Maybe it’s true, but floating land, it’s an
17 habitat; il y avait du manger. Not anymore.
18 Mining also.
19 I mean, development coming from
20 government promoters affects seriously also the
21 caribou. I’m not an expert, but my people said
22 there’s got to be effects.
23 Mais ni Terre-Neuve, ni Québec
24 n’ont jamais avancé cette raison-là.
25 Quand on détruit le territoire
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1 c’est évident qu’on détruit pour tout le monde,
2 l’être humain et la faune.
3 Alors la seule et unique raison
4 que les gouvernements nous disent quand la baisse
5 du troupeau de la George est basée strictement sur
6 son habitat et comme ils étaient trop nombreux, il
7 n’y avait pas assez de nourriture. Mais ils ont
8 jamais dit, ah ben, they were small herds, there
9 were -- ils ont jamais dit ça.
10 La chasse -- la chasse sportive,
11 outfitter businesses and -- les panaches -- parce
12 que les touristes, depuis les 25 dernières années
13 du coté Québec -- je sais pas du coté Labrador,
14 mais du coté Québec -- pour avoir été pilote
15 d’avion je le sais; je les ai tous transportés --
16 la chasse sportive, spécifiquement les américains,
17 viennent à la chasse pas pour la viande. Ils
18 viennent pour le panache, the trophy.
19 Donc, ils tirent beaucoup de
20 mâles, beaucoup de mâles. Ben les femmes vont
21 s’ennuyer. It’s a joke. Je veux dire, s’il n’y a
22 pas de mâles, les femmes, ben, ça produit pas.
23 Alors ça c’est une des raisons
24 qu’ils disent que le troupeau a baissé et c'est
25 vrai. On a besoin de mâles et de femelles pour --
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1 alors, tout ça mis ensemble -- si j’ai répondu à
2 votre question, madame.
3 C'est pas juste la question
4 économique, qu’on soit pour ou contre dans un
5 développement. C'est aussi la culture qui est là,
6 l’occupation, la chaîne alimentaire, que ce soit le
7 caribou, le poisson, l’outarde, la chaîne
8 alimentaire traditionnelle des Innus.
9 Pas parce que moi pis lui on n’a
10 pas grandi comme nos pères parce qu’ils sont venus
11 au monde eux-autres au territoire. Nous on est
12 venu au monde à l’hôpital. Mais on a continué de
13 préserver cette culture-là.
14 Donc, c’est inquiétant. Il y a
15 des jeunes qui disent, « Je veux travailler. »
16 Mais d’un autre coté, trop de mines. It’s, you
17 know, it’s -- c’est compliqué pour les jeunes. Il
18 y a des jeunes qui sont formés, qui veulent
19 travailler, mais le prix à payer s’ils disent oui à
20 l’entente c’est les trous de mines comme l’Iron Ore
21 a laissé, le désordre écologique.
22 Si on veut protéger
23 l’environnement, pas de jobs.
24 C'est ça ma job de chef. Je suis
25 pris avec ça entre nos questions traditionnelles et
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 174
1 culturelles et le modernisme qui s’appelle
2 l’économie de toutes sortes, que ce soit forestier,
3 minier ou hydroélectrique qui crée de l’emploi et
4 de la formation.
5 Alors, en gros, je sais pas si je
6 réponds, madame, mais l’avenir certes -- la
7 pyramidale, c’est le treaty qui règle deux choses
8 -- trois choses importantes. D’abord la certitude
9 juridique, comment qu’on défini la reconnaissance
10 du titre aborigène, ça c’est un.
11 Une fois qu’on a réglé ça, c’est
12 les questions territoriales et les questions
13 économiques parce que qui dit territoire dit
14 économie en gros. Ça c'est le meilleur avenir
15 qu’on pourrait bâtir parce que quand on dit
16 territoire, c’est tout le territoire; l’économie,
17 la faune, l’environnement. C’est tout ça un
18 traité.
19 Mais dans une entente économique,
20 Hydro-Québec, Nalcor ou les mines, y peuvent pas
21 protéger ça parce qu’y sont pas la Couronne. C'est
22 la Couronne qui règle ces questions-là, puis après
23 ça la protection constitutionnelle du traité; donc,
24 intouchable après.
25 I don’t know if I answered the
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 175
1 best I can there but -- thank you.
2 Go ahead.
3 M. CONRAD: Je vais continuer dans
4 ma langue. Comme je regarde dans l’avenir, ce que
5 j’ai compris dans les documents je pense que ça
6 nous mènera pas loin avec ce qu’on nous propose.
7 Ça nous mènera pas loin parce que l’argent qui va
8 être proposée ça va être dépensé. On n’a rien dans
9 notre communauté. On n’a pas de développement
10 économique.
11 Même si on a de l’argent, si je
12 reçois de l’argent pour commencer une entreprise ou
13 bien acheter des choses pour participer dans des
14 mines, avec les mines -- les minerais de fer, y
15 seraient en dehors du Canada. Et une fois que tout
16 va être sorti, ce que j’aurai fait comme profits, à
17 quoi ça va me servir?
18 Mais les outils j’aurai achetés,
19 je pourrai plus faire de l’argent puis y va falloir
20 je les revende. C’est qui qui va les prendre parce
21 qu’y aura plus de mines? Ou ben je vais aller
22 travailler. C’est comme ça je vois les choses.
23 C'est pour ça que ce qui se passe
24 aujourd’hui je suis pas très, très content parce
25 que je me sens pas inclus à 100 pour cent parce que
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1 je suis aussi propriétaire que vous autres.
2 Mon grand-père y m’a bien enseigné
3 parce que c'est lui qui a été mon professeur, mon
4 mentor. Moi aussi, j’ai des droits. Je suis
5 propriétaire. Pourquoi les gouvernements nous
6 reconnaissent pas? Je sais pas pourquoi.
7 Y faudrait que les gouvernements
8 finissent par donner leur opinion en ce qui
9 concerne les Autochtones. Quand t’as besoin de
10 quelqu’un et que tu l’aimes pas, j’ai l’impression
11 qu’y veulent nous mettre de côté jusqu'à pour
12 fermer ma gueule.
13 C’est pour ça les jeunes
14 aujourd’hui sont fâchés. Personnellement, moi et
15 mes frères et sœurs et mes autres amis que j’ai
16 entendus, y disent que ça va être la guerre. On va
17 aller au bout.
18 Puis aujourd’hui c’est mon opinion
19 puis y va falloir que je le fasse. Je vais aller
20 aussi loin que je peux.
21 Je peux pas donner quelque chose
22 que c’est mon héritage sachant que c’est à moi.
23 Qu’on vienne me prendre mes choses, j’ai jamais
24 volé. Le curé m’a montré à ne jamais prendre les
25 choses des autres.
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1 Je pense que vous avez eu les
2 mêmes leçons que nous autres parce que c'est les
3 mêmes -- c’est vos curés. Aujourd’hui, je
4 comprends pas pourquoi vous suivez pas ce que vous
5 avez appris. Nous autres on a appris le respect,
6 respecter les biens des autres, respecter le monde,
7 puis ça va bien aller -- puis tout va bien aller.
8 Mais c’est mon opinion. Le
9 gouvernement comprend l’Innu existe. Moi je me dis
10 j’aimerais mieux être éliminé puis si on n’a pas
11 besoin de moi parce que je vais me retrouver encore
12 dans mon trou. Je vais devenir un alcoolique. Je
13 vais être voleur. Peut-être je vais finir par
14 sauter sur vous autres. C’est ça qui va arriver.
15 Le gouvernement met de l’argent
16 pour aider des personnes dans le besoin. Mais d'un
17 autre côté, c’est à lui à régler ce genre de
18 problème de développement parce qu’on ne nous
19 écoute pas. C’est tout le temps eux qui décident.
20 On m’a dit quand j’étais à l’école
21 « Plusieurs têtes ça vaut mieux qu’une tête. »
22 C’est ce que j’avais appris comme leçon.
23 Je vous remercie là-dessus.
24 M. McKENZIE: Comfortable with the
25 answer? A little bit?
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1 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Lots of
2 answers. Thank you very much, Mr. André. Thank
3 you very much, Chief McKenzie.
4 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Okay, thank
5 you very much.
6 I now ask if there are some other
7 -- Cathy, do you have any question?
8 If not, I'll just ask -- while
9 you're thinking, I'll just ask a very quick one.
10 I'm just wondering, are there any
11 conversations going on now between your community
12 and the Innu Nation with respect to the overlap
13 issues or concerns or anything like that?
14 M. McKENZIE: Oui, très bonne
15 question. Peut-être j’ai oublié de vous dire une
16 chose concernant cette question parce que c’est une
17 question qui mérite d’être répondue très
18 clairement.
19 Dans la politique de revendication
20 territoriale globale émise par le gouvernement
21 fédéral, le "Land Claim Process", bon, le
22 financement, c’est le fédéral qui finance la
23 négociation.
24 La superficie territoriale; Terre-
25 Neuve, Québec dit c’est quoi ta superficie
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 179
1 territoriale et t’as la superficie et Tshash
2 Petapen, un traité moderne, bon.
3 Mais dans la politique fédérale
4 concernant les chevauchements, il est prévu que le
5 fédéral doit enclencher un processus de discussions
6 entre -- si c’est entre nations, oui, ou entre une
7 autre nation aussi, de s’asseoir autour d’une table
8 puis de trouver une solution au chevauchement,
9 règlement de chevauchement.
10 Si ça aurait été l’exemple LIA
11 puis Innu Nation, for example, maybe -- peut-être
12 l’overlap là y était comme ça. My scaring to
13 resolve the overlap issue between -- je parle pas
14 de Mingan, Romaine, having overlap issue on the
15 other side of -- but my community with Uashat-
16 Malitonam, historically we were the same band at
17 the time and split down the road in 1970s; 75,000
18 kilometre square, two communities on the Labrador
19 side; 75,000 kilomètres carrés de territoire,
20 overlap, just two bands.
21 I don't know Mingan what -- je le
22 sais pas but my concern, 75,000. Et comment qu’on
23 règle? C’est gros comme territoire. Ça peut-être
24 c’est réglable. Mais ça, I don't know. It’s going
25 to be major.
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1 Quand Innu Nation ont déposé leur
2 carte territoriale pour la superficie, la seule
3 chose que at the time former Deputy Peter Penashue,
4 quand y m’a rencontré, j’ai dit à Peter, ça
5 commencé par l’IBA qui a signé two years ago
6 because he was there -- he was part of the
7 leadership in -- Peter Penashue.
8 Quand on s’est parlé, j’ai dit,
9 "Peter, what you’re doing there? C’est quoi ça
10 signer un IBA home?” Et la réponse, y dit, “Our
11 Land Claim Process, it's based by the border”.
12 That's his answer; the Quebec/Labrador border, Innu
13 Nation.
14 And he said, “Me, Peter Penashue,
15 je vais pas au Québec. I can pass the line over
16 the border. I don't go to the Quebec side.”
17 Meaning that he was trying to tell me I'm in the
18 right province; you are not. So my Land Claim
19 Process is based on the border which is wrong.
20 Like I said, I'm putting my feet
21 every day the border, how can you -- plus the Grand
22 Research.
23 So yes, they're going to have a
24 discussion. But I hope personally as a -- for my
25 chief position, I hope deeply Innu Nation and my
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 181
1 community to have solution and result; 75,000
2 kilomètres de territoire, it’s huge. I don’t know.
3 That small, maybe; for example, LIA and Innu
4 Nation.
5 But 75,000 with the two bands, not
6 including the Lower North Shore Band, look, it will
7 be a mess somewhere.
8 But the federal, they’re going to
9 engage the discussions for overlap.
10 And one more thing, I talked many
11 times with Peter Penashue, tried to sit down and
12 talk with brothers and sisters. Lower Churchill,
13 based on my grandfathers, when we did the
14 limitation of the land on the Labrador side, our
15 land all goes to Lower Churchill, Voisey’s Bay
16 also. So our land is the base from the story from
17 my grandfathers and grandmothers.
18 So Peter Penashue, Innu Nation,
19 they don’t have to be scared to see Innu
20 Matimekush-Lac John trying to be against the Lower
21 Churchill Project.
22 But on the other hand, I said to
23 Peter and also the new leadership, why home and not
24 we didn’t go to your home because the base of the
25 Nation, when they did, in the 1980s -- 1975, right
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 182
1 after the James Bay Agreement was signed, the nine
2 communities excluded Innu Nation because they were
3 in the other province.
4 The problem was Innu Nation was
5 part of the whole nation when we started the
6 discussions for land claims, but government, the
7 federal government, based on their policies, they
8 said, “They’re in another province. You just can’t
9 make the table two provinces, federal and the whole
10 nation.” This is from 11 communities. So they
11 were mad on that.
12 I said, “Stay away from it. You
13 didn’t help us.” It was what the federal
14 government that did. They made the whole division
15 between us, okay.
16 So because of that story, I
17 believe, that’s why their land claim was based on
18 the border, which I’ve got nothing to do with that.
19 Do you understand that?
20 So to conclude on that, me, I hope
21 -- I have good faith. When I removed the
22 barricades in August, I said -- and my people at
23 that time, and he remembers -- I think he remembers
24 good; he was on the General Assembly when these
25 three governments showed up there.
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1 I had to fight my people to bring
2 down tension because most of the people, they
3 didn’t want -- they didn’t feel confident to the
4 government, what it said, and the mining people.
5 And I said, “Let’s give one chance to us. Let’s go
6 sit down and talk and try to get the best IBA.”
7 I had to fight against my people
8 to convince and give a chance to the negotiations
9 through the IBA, which is what I did. It took five
10 months. Now I have the result. I don’t know
11 what’s going to happen in 10 days for the
12 referendum, but I did.
13 But to see my position as a chief,
14 Mr. President, I’m always for discussion and sit
15 down and talk. I did through Innu Nation. I did a
16 new leadership for a whole respect from Joseph
17 Rich, the new President of Innu Nation.
18 When he said to me, “Chief, I’m
19 going to go to your home. Two things: I want to
20 see the mining thing when you said it’s right
21 beside your home.” Because he never been there.
22 Instead, Voisey’s Bay and whatever, “I want to see
23 that with my eyes.”
24 “You’re welcome, my brother.
25 Welcome. Two things, we’re going to discuss about
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 184
1 our IBA and the overlap issue about New Dawn
2 Agreement.” Three times he reported, three. And
3 we’re close to a treaty, to sign it.
4 I mean, it’s not going to be easy,
5 believe me. It’s too much represent about the land
6 for the overlap. It’s -- they’re going to agree of
7 that no matter if we have the proof of the land, we
8 were there, based on our grid research, because if
9 Peter was -- if he did that before, maybe we’ll be
10 there for that.
11 But I doubt on that case too we
12 can resolve that thing because probably I was
13 hoping for the new leadership being there with
14 Joseph Rich as the new President, the new Chief.
15 There’s two new chiefs.
16 Natuashish, which had a meeting in
17 Ottawa, a national chief meeting, sit there, my
18 people. You choose a place. I said, “Where do you
19 want to do the meeting?” I was sure he was going
20 to answer Wabush.
21 “No, Chief, to your home because I
22 want to see with my eyes the two mining projects
23 going on there, first, and let’s discuss about
24 maybe what we can do to have an agreement and
25 Tshash Petapen to try to find some overlap issue
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1 result.” Three times, he never showed up, my
2 friend.
3 So cross your fingers what’s going
4 to happen for the overlap issue. The policy is
5 there, the result.
6 And if -- I think the federal -- I
7 may be wrong or not, but I don’t know -- but the
8 federal and Newfoundland governments said to my
9 people in August when I decided to remove the
10 barricades, my people raised only one question to
11 the government concerned about the treaty. You,
12 Newfoundland and Labrador government, I want to
13 hear if -- are you going to sign the treaty without
14 our result for the overlap? There’s a lot of
15 witnesses who are sitting now at my back. And Mr.
16 Burrage, Justice Department, no, until we resolve
17 the overlap. That’s what he said.
18 You, the federal, because you’re
19 going to be part signatory of the treaty, what is
20 your position concerned about that? My answer is,
21 “No, no treaty if we don’t resolve the overlap.”
22 Are they going to do it or not? I
23 doubt, because the policy doesn’t say that. He
24 says -- he just says, “Yes, we’re going to try to
25 do it and get the best result about it.” Because
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 186
1 the federal is going to say, “We try, but between
2 you guys, you just can’t make a deal or resolve the
3 overlap. So I tried, but I’ve got to sign.”
4 That’s the doubt of my people.
5 Like I said, they don’t trust too
6 much governments for what they did in the past.
7 Thank you.
8 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Thank you,
9 Chief McKenzie.
10 I’m cognizant of the time. I
11 wanted to give an opportunity -- Ms. Griffiths, you
12 wanted to follow up on your ---
13 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Me?
14 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Yes. Well,
15 you did mention ---
16 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Well,
17 thank you. I didn’t think the Chair was going to
18 let me after my long question last time, but he’s
19 given me a second chance.
20 This, I hope, is a short question.
21 Can you just explain how the process by which -- is
22 it the 34 families have their rights? What
23 underpins the 34 families and their rights? Is it
24 anything to do -- well, you explain please.
25 M. McKENZIE: O.k. C’est une très
INTERNATIONAL REPORTING INC. 187
1 bonne question, madame, et puis c’est bien
2 important parce qu’on a adressé cette question-là
3 -- en fait, on a informé le gouvernement de Terre-
4 Neuve et Labrador parce que c’est des choses que --
5 pour l’acceptation de discussions territoriales au
6 Labrador pour les Innus de Matimekush-Lac John,
7 c’est évident que ça prend, comme je vous ai dit
8 tantôt, une superficie.
9 Alors, les 34 familles qui
10 détiennent des droits territoriaux au Labrador,
11 comme je vous l’ai dit tantôt, dans les débuts de
12 discussions avec le gouvernement fédéral pour
13 négocier vers un traité, c’est à partir de la base
14 des études historiques et archéologiques venant de
15 nos ancêtres, nos grands-parents, de toute la
16 délimitation, ce que vous appelez vous autres en
17 anglais "trapping line", les lots de trappe, o.k.
18 D’où viennent les lots de trappe?
19 Ça c’est une question que j’aime, madame, ce que
20 vous venez de poser comme question. C’est que les
21 lots de trappe, historiquement, viennent du Québec,
22 du Gouvernement du Québec. Et à l’époque, dans les
23 années ’54-’55, c’était pour avoir le nombre de
24 castors trappés.
25 Le Gouvernement du Québec a dit,
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1 “How many do you kill a year, you trappers, the
2 beaver?” So that’s -- c’est le Québec.
3 Mais ce qui est surprenant, ça
4 c’est le Québec qui ask the Innu, Uashat,
5 Matimekush, Lower North Shore Innu, and if you see
6 the map -- maybe you see it before -- the trapping
7 lines, they’re over the border on the Labrador
8 side. That’s why it comes from the 34 families,
9 based on their history, André, Vollant, McKenzie.
10 And curiously, I mean, that was
11 not coming from Newfoundland Labrador government
12 request, no at all, Quebec, but the Innu at that
13 time said, "Well, the border it's not a border. "
14 So the term was over -- overpass
15 the border. So that's what comes from the trapping
16 lines the Quebec government was requesting at that
17 time to have control about the beaver trapping and
18 control the animal.
19 Just like what the caribou -- they
20 asked Newfoundland Labrador government and Quebec
21 government, they want us how many animals, for
22 example, caribou, you kill a year? Because that's
23 the only statistics we don't have from you guys,
24 20, 100, 200?
25 Or community rolls for caribou
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1 hunt; I would like to feed all families because we
2 are a big family, each house. But this year, when
3 we did our community hunt, we did at least, at the
4 minimum for -- we have 200 houses right now at
5 Matimekush-Lac John when we went there. This time,
6 the caribou of George River herd was crossing the
7 border about months ago which it was near Cache
8 River.
9 But our hunt was on the Quebec
10 side, it's the same caribou and we shot 200 to
11 distribute at least, at the minimum, one animal
12 each house. You know that's -- so that's what
13 comes from your question, you know, came from the
14 Quebec government, you know, the trap -- how do you
15 call it, trapping line, yes, trapping line? Is
16 that correct?
17 Thank you.
18 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Thank you
19 very much.
20 M. McKENZIE: It's okay as an
21 answer, madam? Yes? It's okay for you?
22 CHAIRPERSON GRIFFITHS: Yes.
23 M. McKENZIE: Okay.
24 MEMBER JONG: A very quick follow-
25 up from that. The 34 families and their beaver
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1 lots or the trap lines, did all end out under water
2 with the Upper Churchill development or are they
3 still above ground -- I mean above water?
4 M. McKENZIE: In memory, I think -
5 - I don't have the exact number for sure. He's
6 going for his -- I would say -- (discussion in Innu
7 -- not translated).
8 Roughly, the number I think in
9 Smallwood Reservoir -- because don't forget,
10 there's some families from Uashat, okay?
11 But us, I would say three
12 families, total with Uashat. Look, I'm just
13 advancing here roughly. I would say seven, eight
14 families affected by Smallwood Reservoir.
15 I don't know if I answered
16 correctly your question, madam.
17 About that, do you know what I am
18 going to do just to have the right number. Like I
19 said I'm going to send -- I have until the 13th to
20 send, so I'm going to have to make that quickly,
21 before the 13th, that's next week. But I'll mention
22 that too, to have the right information because our
23 maps and our people working on that, they're going
24 to give me the right answer, and I'll put in on my
25 memory when I send that to you guys.
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1 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Okay, thank
2 you. That would be very much appreciated.
3 I would like now to go to the
4 Proponent and they may have some questions for you
5 as well. And I'm sure they've been listening
6 patiently all afternoon. So I'll go to Mr.
7 Bennett.
8 --- QUESTIONS BY THE PROPONENT:
9 MR. G. BENNETT: Great, thank you,
10 Mr. Co-chair.
11 Chef McKenzie, it was a pleasure
12 to listen in this afternoon. This is certainly a
13 very interesting topic for us and you know needless
14 to say, after this afternoon's conversation, there
15 were certainly a lot more issues than just our
16 environmental assessment that we could -- that we
17 have been looking at.
18 And I was just, you know, thinking
19 about the efforts of the team of four Deputy
20 Ministers that came to meet you, and I think that
21 there're certainly some broader issues here, much
22 more than we would see as Proponents.
23 So at this point, I don't have any
24 specific questions. I think the -- our
25 understanding and the material that we have is
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1 lined up with what we took from the conversation
2 here this afternoon.
3 So other than just, you know,
4 taking the opportunity to thank you very much for
5 the conversation, the input, I think it was
6 delivered -- both, yourself and Monsieur André,
7 delivered a very cogent and concise synopsis of the
8 issues that we are all dealing with here. And I
9 just would like to thank you for that.
10 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Okay. Thank
11 you, Mr. Bennett.
12 And let's go back to Chief
13 McKenzie.
14 M. McKENZIE: Juste -- je sais
15 qu'on termine. C'est parce que je pensais à la
16 question de monsieur tantôt en relation avec le
17 référendum parce qu'il y a beaucoup de sujets, 12
18 points, 12 sujets de négociation pour arriver à une
19 entente IBA; exemple, profit sharing, activités
20 traditionnelles, infrastructures.
21 There's 12, but there's seven very
22 important to have to make a mind to my people to
23 say yes or no.
24 One of the issues is very
25 important. It's concerning especially mothers, les
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1 mères.
2 Infrastructures, on a demandé
3 trois choses dans l'entente; arena, swimming pool
4 and a centre de guérison dans l'IBA.
5 Ça, c'est les madames avant qu'on
6 prenne -- avant qu'on accepte de négocier un IBA
7 pour donner une chance à la négo, les madames dans
8 l'assemblée avaient dit, nous, les hommes qui
9 travaillent ou les femmes, mais nous, on a des
10 enfants. On veut dans l'entente IBA, pour nos
11 enfants, d'avoir une place pour jouer; soit le
12 hockey ou la piscine.
13 Et je me souviens de ces sujets-
14 là, on les a. Ça va tellement être coûteux
15 construire un aréna et une piscine. Oui, LIM et
16 Millennium, ils ont fait ce qu'ils pouvaient mais
17 il manque beaucoup d'argent encore.
18 Alors ça, ça va jouer un rôle au
19 vote parce que les madames, elles veulent un aréna
20 pour leurs enfants et puis elles veulent la
21 piscine. Et si on ne l'a pas là-dedans, c'est
22 dangereux.
23 Parce que la seule chose qu'on a
24 sauvée dans la ville de Schefferville quand ils ont
25 commencé à démolir la piscine, le curling, le
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1 bowling, tout était là à Schefferville.
2 Et la seule chose qu'on a sauvée
3 durant la démolition c'est quand les enfants puis
4 les mères, puis ils ont arrêté quasiment l'école
5 pour empêcher les bulldozers de démolir le dernier
6 bâtiment qui restait, c'était l'aréna, ils ont
7 empêché ça; une chaîne humaine.
8 Et puis là bien la police, Sûreté
9 du Québec, du côté Québec, Schefferville, j'étais
10 chef à l'époque. Moi, je le savais pas ce qui se
11 passait là-bas. La police arrive dans mon bureau,
12 "Chief, your people, they block the equipment to
13 demolish the arena."
14 "Schefferville, it's not on my
15 authority. I'm in a reserve. Do your job, I'll do
16 mine. You're the cop, I'm not a cop. Go move the
17 people. But before you go, I'd like to say let's
18 sit down and talk. You take your hat, you're a
19 cop; I'll take my chief hat, human, let's talk
20 human. You are here for two years, I understand,
21 contracts."
22 It's true because when they shut
23 down the town, no municipality policeman. So they
24 send new mayor. There's nobody there.
25 So I said, "Enlève ton chapeau de
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1 policier. J'enlève mon chapeau de chef."
2 Human, deux ans.
3 The SQ for now for Schefferville
4 to keep security, public security, two years
5 contract; they come from Montreal, whatever, they
6 send staff there. There are seven cops, believe it
7 or not. Before they sent the two more cops extra,
8 five cops for minimum 100 people there in town.
9 My Innu policeman, I've got three
10 for 800 people. How can you understand the deal
11 there? I mean five cops, equipment, cars,
12 Schefferville, 100 people; five cops and equipment.
13 So we had no deal at federal, so
14 we have no Innu policeman now. So it's SQ that
15 does the job for us, so they added two more. There
16 are seven now total.
17 I said to the cop, "You are here
18 on a two-year contract but when you go home, I see
19 your kids there at the school because white people
20 they do the rent to our school, the Innu school,
21 the non-Natives go to our school. So we do the
22 deal with the Quebec government for the kids, the
23 non-Native.
24 So I say, “When you go home, my
25 friend, in two years when your contract will be
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1 finished, you’re from Chateauguay, you said, I’m
2 sure you must be at the minimum arena, swimming
3 pool, and so on. I guess your kid is going to be
4 happy to go back, eh? Play hockey, and this and
5 that. And you ask me to move my people away from
6 that building? Look …”
7 He never said a word, he put his
8 hat and left. It’s a deep answer, right? Do your
9 job, I’ll do mine. Municipality is not my
10 authority. You want to move these people, go
11 ahead. No guarantee what's going to happen there.
12 So I tried to add about your
13 question. So every issue, they’re really important
14 to please everyone. Mothers ask for arenas,
15 swimming pools. If they don’t see that, they might
16 be voting no, right?
17 People, men, jobs, how many?
18 Twenty (20), 30, 40, it’s enough? Yes.
19 Profit sharing for the future,
20 enough is enough, I don’t know.
21 Every issue you touch every voter
22 for the whole deal. So that’s why there's a big
23 danger. The people to reflect, because I see just
24 the mothers for the kids. We don’t have the whole
25 money things to build those things. So do you
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1 think they’re going to say yes to the deal? I’m
2 not sure, guys.
3 Just wish us good luck and see
4 what happens.
5 Thank you.
6 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Okay. Thank
7 you very much, Chief McKenzie and Mr. André, for
8 your presentation and we look forward to your
9 written presentation by the 13th, whatever
10 information you can give to us by then.
11 I don’t know if -- did you have
12 any further comment to make, Mr. Bennett?
13 MR. G. BENNETT: No, I’m fine,
14 thanks.
15 CHAIRPERSON CLARKE: Okay. Then
16 in that case, I’d like to again thank you for
17 coming and participating today, and this would
18 bring an end to the community hearing for your
19 community. And thank you again and have a safe
20 trip back home.
21 CHIEF McKENZIE: Thank you very
22 much.
23 --- Upon adjourning at 5:04 p.m./
24 L’audience est ajournée à 17h04
25
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1
2 C E R T I F I C A T I O N
3
4 I, Sean Prouse, a certified court reporter in the
5 Province of Ontario, hereby certify the foregoing
6 pages to be an accurate transcription of my
7 notes/records to the best of my skill and ability,
8 and I so swear.
9
10 Je, Sean Prouse un sténographe officiel dans la
11 province de l’Ontario, certifie que les pages ci-
12 hautes sont une transcription conforme de mes
13 notes/enregistrements au meilleur de mes capacités,
14 et je le jure.
15
16
17
18 ______
19 Sean Prouse, CVR
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