NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

WEEKLY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

OFFICIAL REPORT

HANSARD NO 163 (Part Four)

29 March - 9 April 2010

Printed by Order of Parliament THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon M. N. Nasha. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP Tonota South Clerk of the National Assembly -- Mr B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly -- Vacant Acting Learned Parliament Counsel -- Ms S. Moroka Principal Clerk Asst. 1 (E) -- Mr M. Moreri CABINET Hon. Lt. Gen. S. K. I. Khama, MP. --President Hon. Lt. Gen. M. S. Merafhe, MP. (Mahalapye West)-- Vice President Hon. L. E. Motsumi, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister for Presidential Affairs and Public Administration Hon. P. T. C. Skelemani, MP. (Francistown East) --Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation Hon. D. R. Seretse, MP. (Serowe North East) --Minister of Justice, Defence and Security Hon. J. K. Swartz, MP. (Ghanzi North) --Minister of Infrastructure, Science and Technology Hon. L. T. Mokalake, MP. (Boteti South) --Minister of Local Government Hon. P. Venson-Moitoi, MP. (Serowe South) --Minister of Education and Skills Development Hon. K. O. Matambo, MP. (Specially Elected) - Minister of Finance and Development Planning Hon. F. J. Ramsden, MP. (Maun East) --Minister of Transport and Communications Hon. C. De Graaff, MP. (Ghanzi South) --Minister of Agriculture Hon. P. H. K. Kedikilwe, MP. (Mmadinare) --Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water Resources Hon. P. L. Siele, MP. (Ngwaketse South) --Minister of Labour and Home Affairs Hon. S. Kgathi, MP. (Bobirwa) --Minister of Youth, Sports and Culture Hon. O. K. Mokaila, MP. (Borolong) --Minister of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism Hon. N. E. Molefhi, MP. (Selebi Phikwe East) --Minister of Lands and Housing Hon. Rev. Dr. J. G. N. Seakgosing, MP. (Kweneng South)-- Minister of Health Hon. D. K. Makgato-Malesu, MP. (Specially Elected)-- Minister of Trade and Industry Hon. O. S. Molebatsi, MP. (Tswapong South) --Assistant Minister, Agriculture Hon. K. S. Rammidi, MP. (Kanye North) -- Assistant Minister, Local Government Hon. B. M. Tshireletso, MP. (Mahalapye East) --Assistant Minister, Local Government Hon. K. J. Rakhudu, MP. (Gaborone North) --Assistant Minister, Education and Skills Development Hon. M. E. Masisi, MP. (Moshupa) --Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs and Public Administration Hon. C. M. Tibone, MP. (Tati West) --Assistant Minister, Finance and Development Planning Hon. G. U. S. Matlhabaphiri MP. (Molepolole North)-- Assistant Minister, Health Hon. M. G. K. Motowane, MP. (Letlhakeng West) --Assistant Minister, Trade and Industry

2 Hansard No 163 Part 4 MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY (Botswana Democratic Party)

Hon D. K. Kwelagobe, MP Molepolole South Hon S. Tsogwane, MP Boteti North Hon T. W. Masisi, MP Francistown West Hon Major Gen. M. R. Pheto, MP Kweneng East Hon T. Moremi, MP Maun West Hon M. E. Raletobana, MP Kweneng South East Hon M. M. Goya, MP Palapye Hon P. M. Maele, MP Tswapong North Hon P. M. Masimolole, MP Mogoditshane Hon G. S. M. Mangole, MP Kgatleng West Hon S. G. Moyo, MP Tati East Hon W. B. Mmolotsi, MP Francistown South Hon B. Ntuane, MP Gaborone West South Hon E. J. Batshu, MP Nkange Hon R. Masitara, MP Gaborone West North Hon K. P. Molatlhegi, MP Gaborone South Hon O. Motlhale, MP South East South Hon L. Kablay, MP Letlhakeng East Hon R. B. Makosha, MP Nata/Gweta Hon T. S. Khama, MP Serowe North West Hon P. D. Makgalemele, MP Shoshong Hon V. T. Seretse, MP Specially Elected OPPOSITION (Botswana National Front Party) Hon O. M. Gaborone, MP Leader of Opposition South East North Hon P. Khwae, MP Kgalagadi North Hon J. K.Toto, MP Kgalagadi South Hon I. S. Mabiletsa, MP Kgatleng East Hon M. R. Reatile, MP Ngwaketse West Hon A. S. Kesupile, MP Kanye South

OPPOSITION (Botswana Congress Party)

Hon G. Saleshando, MP Selebi-Phikwe West Hon D. Saleshando, MP Gaborone Central Hon B. Arone, MP Okavango Hon G. R.M Mshimwe, MP Chobe Hon T. G. Habano, MP (Botswana Alliance Movement) Ngami INDEPENDENT CANDIDATE Hon N. M. Modubule, MP Lobatse

Hansard No 163 Part 4 3 TABLE OF CONTENTS THE THIRD MEETING OF THE FIRST SESSION OF TENTH PARLIAMENT PART FOUR 29 March - 9 April 2010

CONTENTS PAGE (S)

Amendment of the Schedules of the Customs and Execise Duty Act (Cab 50:01) - Motion ...... 83

BUSINESS MOTION ...... 187

Botswana-Mozambique Double Taxation Avoidance Agreement Order, 2009 - Resolution ...... 199 - 203

Financial Paper No. 3 of 2008/2009 and Financial Paper No. 2 of 2009/2010 - Motion ...... 100 - 114

Kasane Airport Project (Arab Bank for Economic Development in Africa (BADEA)) Loan Authorisation Bill, 2009 (No. 21 of 2009) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) ...... 10 - 16 Committee Stage ...... 17

Morupule B Power Station Project (World Bank) (Loan Authorisation) Bill, 2010 (No. 2 of 2010) - Second Reading ...... 121 - 152 Resumed Debate ...... 158 - 172 Committee Stage ...... 198 Third Reading ...... 199

Morupule B Power Station Project (African Development Bank) (Loan Authorisation) Bill, 2010 (No. 3 of 2010) - Second Reading ...... 173 - 186 Resumed Debate ...... 193 - 198 Committee Stage ...... 198 Third Reading ...... 199

National Trade Policy for Botswana 2009 - Motion ...... 82

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER ...... 5, 38, 69, 95, 117, 153, 187, 218

QUESTIONS FOR WRITTEN ANSWER ...... 192

Revised National Population Policy of 2010 - Motion ...... 84 - 94

SPEAKER’S ANNOUNCEMENT ...... 218

Supplementary Appropriation (2008/2009) Bill, 2010 (No.4 of 2010) - First Reading ...... 43 Second Reading ...... 115

Statutory Instrument No. 50 of 2009: Botswana- Mozambique Double Taxation Avoidance Agreement Order, 2009 - Motion ...... 116

TABLING OF PAPERS ...... 74, 99, 121, 258, 193, 223

Tracer Study of Out of School Youth - Motion (Resumed Debate) ...... 204 - 217 Resumed Debate ...... 223 - 247

Transfer of Responsibility for Health Care - Motion (Resumed Debate) ...... 204

Value Added Tax (Increase in the Rate of Tax) Order, 2010 - Resolution ...... 18 - 37 Resumed Debate ...... 43 - 68 Resumed Debate ...... 75 - 81

4 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Monday 29th March, 2010 b) Provision of air conditioning in the Laboratory Building THE ASSEMBLY met at 2.30 p.m. (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) c) Addition of waiting room for VIPs and special guests in the auditorium P R A Y E R S d) Provision of a sick bay and observation room at * * * * the clinic for employees and students

MR MOREMI: Point of procedure. Thank you Mr e) Upgrading of power supply to the Administration Speaker. Ke ne ke re ka Labotlhano ka nako ya dipotso, Block and Laboratory. go ne gatwe Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water Resources o tla a simolola ka tse a neng a sa kgona f) The total cost associated with the changes is P11, go di araba ka Friday, go le gompieno, meaning gore 190,753.17. Order Paper ya gompieno e ka bo e supa jalo. Mr Speaker, with these variations the facilities will MR SPEAKER (MR MOATLHODI): You have meet the functional needs of BIUST at least for now. made your point Honourable Member. Unfortunately Thank you Mr Speaker. we had already noticed questions for today and they shall be coming during the course of this week. MR V. T. SERETSE: Honourable Minister, I would like to be informed as to who this project belongs QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER to. Does it belong to the BIUST or the Ministry of Education and Skills Development? VARIATIONS TO ORIGINAL TENDER DOCUMENTS OF BOTSWANA MR SWARTZ: Mr Speaker, my Ministry deals with INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF SCIENCE the Ministry of Education and Skills Development as AND TECHNOLOGY PROJECT the client ministry. Thank you Sir.

MR M. M. GOYA (PALAPYE): asked the Minister STATUS OF TRIBAL LAND INTEGRATED of Infrastructure, Science and Technology if there are MANAGEMENT SYSTEM PROJECT any variations to the original tender requirements of the Botswana University of Science and Technology MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked (BIUST) project:- the Minister of Lands and Housing whether the Tribal Land Integrated Management System (TLIMS) which i) what are these, why were they necessary and why began in 2005 as a pilot project has been a success or were they not considered as part of the original failure; he should further state:- tender; i) how many Land Boards and Sub-Land Boards ii) what are the cost implications of these to the have implement TLIMS; Government; and ii) the number of consultancy companies engaged iii) with these variations, will the facilities meet the for the TLIMS project and total consultancy fees functional needs of BIUST paid on TLIMS since inception; and

MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE, SCIENCE iii) whether he is confident that people do not own AND TECHNOLOGY (MR SWARTZ): Mr Speaker, more than one plot as per TLIMS conditions. indeed there are some variations to the original tender requirements of the Botswana International University MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR of Science and Technology (BIUST) project. As you MOLEFHI): Mr Speaker, there is no Land Board may recall BIUST had to be scaled down due to or Sub Land Board which is fully implementing the budgetary constraints, to build the founding campus, Tribal Land Integrated Management system (TLIMS). which is what we are doing now. It is during this Currently the Land Boards are doing data capturing to process that some of the important components were facilitate implementation of the system. inadvertently left out only to be incorporated later as Five companies have so far been engaged in the TLIMS variations. These variations are as follows: project at a total cost of P26, 683,733. Geoflux (Pty) a) Extension of the Administration Block from three Ltd, in partnership with RPC Data and FFM Botswana to a four storey building to increase office space. was engaged at a total cost of P5, 026,318.90 for the system development whilst current five companies

Hansard No 163 Part 4 5 Monday 29th March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

have been engaged in data collection in various Land amount is going to waste as crops are being Boards at a total cost of P21, 302,110.00. damaged by wildlife;

Since the system is not fully operational, the problem ii) whether there are any plans by his Ministry to of multiple ownership of plots cannot be ruled out. control this damage; and The ongoing data collection process seeks to capture all records pertaining to each individual allocation to iii) if his Ministry has ever conducted a comparative enable the system to start working. Once it becomes fully study to address this problem. operational, plot ownership details will be up to date. MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE The system will therefore generate information that will AND TOURISM (MR MOKAILA): Mr Speaker, my enable management to act or take remedial measures on Ministry is not aware that more than half of the P200 land allocation issues. Thank you Mr Speaker. million allocated for food production by the Ministry MR MAKGALEMELE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa of Agriculture goes to waste due to wildlife damage. Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke ne ke re Tona a re However, my Ministry is aware that some crop damage tlhalosetse gore ka gore thulaganyo e e sale e simolotse does occur due to wildlife, in various parts of Botswana. ka 2005, o tlhomamisa gore e tla a bo e setse e eme Mr Speaker, as previously indicated in my response to leng ka dinao gore e itebaganye le maikaelelo a yone? a similar question, my Ministry has put in place some MR MOLEFHI: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa measures though not water tight, to reduce the impact of Palamente, e tla a re fela fa thulaganyo e sena go wela wildlife damage on the farms. Furthermore, my Ministry in ya gore information e e mo difaeleng le e e in other partnership with the World Bank will implement the Human systems e tshwaraganngwe yotlhe ke gone tsamaiso Wildlife Co-existence Project in parts of Boteti, Ngamiland e tla a simololang go bereka sentle. Fa di sena go and Chobe Districts during NDP 10. The main objective of tshwaraganngwa tsotlhe ka gore ga se yone fela ya this project is to reduce human-wildlife-conflict incidences TLIMS, go na le ya state land le e nngwe e re e dirang e in these areas through the use of preventative strategies. e yang go felela e tshwaragantse ditsamaiso tse tsotlhe, Over and above these aforementioned efforts Mr Speaker, e tla a simolola go bereka. Mo nakong eno ka gore ga my Ministry continues to compensate farmers for damage re ise re feleletse go rurifatsa mabaka otlhe a teng, re caused by selected species. However, it should be borne in ne re ka baya letsatsi gore e tla a re ka nako ya gore, mind that it is the farmers’ responsibility to safeguard their thulaganyo e e bo e wetse. property.

MR V. T. SERETSE: Point of clarification. Mr Speaker, research on human-wildlife-conflict was conducted along the Okavango Panhandle in 2002 and MR SPEAKER: Sorry Honourable Minister, in all in the Okavango delta catchment in 2007. The results fairness to the Minister, he has not even completed a of this study together with lessons from the region have sentence, do you want to clarify that he is not talking informed the “Draft Predator Management Strategy for properly? Please, Honourable Seretse, Honourable Botswana; A Conflict Resolution Plan”. This document Minister, finish up what you were telling us. is still under internal consideration before engaging other stakeholders. I thank you Mr Speaker. MR V. T SERETSE: Mr Speaker, le fa o ne o re ke mo tsena ganong, o ne a re le tse dingwe tse a di dirang, MR MAKOSHA: Ke botsa Tona gore, o itse tshenyo e e jaanong ke ne ke batla go itse gore tse dingwe tse a di dirwang ke diphologolo e le bokae fa ditlou di kgona gore dirang ke dife ka tse pedi tsone o di buile? di tsene mo masimong di senye gotlhe mo go lemilweng ke batho, gape ka fa di ntse di kgaola diterata, ba Lephata MR SPEAKER: Le kwa gae ka Setswana fa motho la Temo bone ba ntse ba tsweletse ba baakanya diterata yo motona a bua ga a nke a tsenwa ganong. O ne o mo tse di kgaotsweng ke tsone diphologolo? Jaanong ke re, tsena ganong. Tona ke motho yo motona and I pray ene o itse a dirisitse bokae, gape le gone ke batla gore bagaetsho, a re tlogeleng go tsaana jalo. mo madi a ene a phimolang farmers dikeledi ka one, ke DAMAGE OF CROPS BY WILDLIFE bokae? I thank you.

MR R. B. MAKOSHA (NATA/GWETA): asked the MR MOKAILA: Nnyaa, nna ke ne ke beile mo Minister of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism: potsong ya gagwe a re a ke itse gore P200 million o dirisiwa mo tshenyong? Nna ka re ga ke itse e le i) if he is aware that although over P200 million P200 million. Tshenyo rona e re e itseng re e dirisa mo has been allocated for food production by the diphologolong tse di senyetsang batho, a felela fela mo Ministry of Agriculture, more than half of this go P7 million Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.

6 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR KWELAGOBE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa However, the present scenario has not disadvantaged Palamente, ke ne ke re Tona a o ka re sedimosetsa the District in terms of resource allocation, but gore tota batho mme bone ba ka itshireletsa go le kae rather service delivery could have been affected by mo ditloung tse di ba senyetsang, mme e bile ba etla insufficient budgetary allocations for various projects ba di tshaba. as opposed to district requirements. To address the issue of centralisation, my Ministry established in 2009 Sa bobedi Sir ke gore, a Tona o a itse gore ka kgakololo an Administrative Authority in Molepolole to cater for ya ba lephata la gagwe le ba neng ba re batho ba phuthele Molepolole and surrounding villages. chillis ka dikgetsana ba e lepeletse mo masimong go koba ditlou, a o itse gore chillies e, jaanong e bolaya For NDP 10 period and beyond, three Sub-Districts dikgaka, tse le tsone e leng bontlha bongwe jwa tiso e have been approved for establishment at Mogoditshane, a e disitseng. Lentsweletau and Thamaga. Furthermore, my Ministry intends to operationalise the Mogoditshane Sub-District MR MOKAILA: Ke lebogela go lemoga fa during the coming financial year 2010/2011. I thank you. Mokaulengwe mong wa me a itse gore chillies e a dirisiwa gore e fokotse yone tshenyo ya ditlou. MR KWELAGOBE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, a Tona o a itse gore ga go na le fa e le Sa bobedi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, project e le nngwe fela, ya administrative authority o a itse gore ditlou ke nngwe ya diphologolo tse re which is financed by his Ministry? Fa e le teng, a a re di phimolelang dikeledi ka go itse gore di borai mo bolelele gore ke efe. matshelong a batho. MR RAMMIDI: Mr Speaker, ga ke tlhaloganye potso Sa boraro ke ne ke tlhalosa mo karabong ya me gore ka gore projects which are financed tse go boletsweng re bereka le ba World Bank mo go fokotseng yone mo budget speech, ke projects which have been ongoing. kgotlhang e fa gare ga diphologolo le batho. Ke tsone All new projects have not been funded ka ntlha ya dikgato tsotlhe tse re di tsayang. letlhoko la madi. Jaanong, ga ke itse gore Rraetsho o Kgang ya chillies le dikgaka, nnyaa, eo e ntsha mo go nna, raya jang ka gore projects which are funded in all the ga ke itse dikgaka di bolawa ke chillies. Ke a leboga. councils mo lefatsheng ka bophara, ke tse e leng gore were ongoing. Fa e le gore administrative authority OVER CENTRALISATION OF STRUCTURES e ne e sena an ongoing project, then there will be no AT KWENENG DISTRICT COUNCIL project that is funded in that area. Ke a leboga.

MAJ. GEN. M. R. PHETO (KWENENG EAST): MR KWELAGOBE: Fa Tona a re, “if it was not asked the Minister of Local Government: funded go raya gore ga go na se se ka dirwang.” This administrative authority e ne e tlhomelwa eng, go i) whether he is aware that Kweneng District itsewe gore ga go na ongoing projects, e bile go itsewe Council and Central Government departments gore ga go na project epe e e leng teng? have over centralised structures as compared to districts such as the Southern District Council; MR RAMMIDI: Mr Speaker, the administrative authority is not only responsible for development ii) whether he is aware that this has disadvantaged projects, it is also taking care of the recurrent work that Kweneng District in terms of resource allocation is going on within Molepolole and surrounding areas. So, for various projects, and has also adversely batho ba tshwanetse go sela matlakala le go fiwa dijo tsa affected service delivery; and mophako. That is the duty of administrative authority.

iii) how he intends to address the situation to bring TYPES OF VEHICLES ALLOCATED TO Kweneng District to the level of the Southern GOVERNMENT OFFICES District council, which has four sub-districts and another full council Jwaneng. MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked the Minister of Transport and Communications:- ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): Mr Speaker i) what informs his Ministry before different types there is no doubt that relative to Southern District, of vehicles are allocated to Government offices Kweneng District is centralised with a district across districts; headquarters, one Sub-District at Letlhakeng and an Administrative Authority. ii) whether he is aware that most roads in the Shoshong Constituency require 4X4 vehicles yet

Hansard No 163 Part 4 7 Monday 29th March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

there are numerous instances where vehicles that INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF SCIENCE are not 4X4 are allocated; and AND TECHNOLOGY

iii) when this anomaly will be addressed. MR M. M. GOYA (PALAPYE): asked the Minister of Education and Skills Development to update this MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND Honourable House on progress made in appointing the COMMUNICATIONS (MR RAMSDEN): Mr Chancellor for the Botswana International University Speaker, of Science and Technology (BIUST), so as to assist in i) My Ministry, through Central Transport the handling of complex matters that would otherwise Organisation, only procures the type of vehicles be beyond the jurisdiction of the BIUST Council and as requested by all Ministries and Departments. Administration. The allocation of these vehicles to Government ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND offices across the districts is done by Ministries SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Mr and Departments themselves. Speaker, in terms of Section 6 (1) of the BIUST Act, ii) I am aware that most of the roads in Shoshong the Chancellor of the university shall be the President Constituency require 4 x 4 vehicles. of the Republic of Botswana or such eminent person as may be appointed by the President. In terms of Section iii) Since all Government Ministries and Departments 6 (4), in the absence of the Chancellor who is not the allocate vehicles to their offices across the President, or during a vacancy in the office of the district, this anomaly can only be addressed by Chancellor, the Chairperson of the University Council them. Thank you Sir. shall act as Chancellor. I thank you.

EXTENSION OF ANIMAL DOMESTICATION HIV/AIDS GUIDELINES AT PRIMARY AND POLICY SERVICES SECONDARY SCHOOLS

MR R. B. MAKOSHA (NATA/GWETA): asked the MR A. S. KESUPILE (KANYE SOUTH): asked Minister of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism:- the Minister of Education and Skills Development whether her Ministry’s HIV/AIDS guidelines have i) when his Ministry intends to extend the Animal promoted school developed and school focused HIV/ Domestication Policy services such as eland AIDS policies by the Primary and Secondary Schools; milking to other parts of the country; if so:-

ii) whether his Ministry has plans to distribute these i) she should state the impact of such policies in animals to the beneficiaries, being remote area response to the call for behaviour change (Ntwa e dwellers as initially planned; and Bolotse) made by the former President; and

iii) if there has been any research conducted on the ii) if not, does she not see the need for such an quality and nutritional value of the eland milk. undertaking by the schools.

MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND AND TOURISM (MR MOKAILA): Mr Speaker, SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Mr i) The game domestication project was terminated Speaker, my Ministry’s HIV and AIDS guidelines have in 1994. This decision was informed by a review promoted the development of primary and secondary that showed that the project was not achieving its schools focused policies and programmes such as intended objectives. the School HIV and AIDS Related Ground Rules, Guidance and Wellness Plans, HIV and AIDS/Health ii) In light of the above mentioned, therefore, my Clubs targeting learners and staff members. Further to Ministry has no plans to distribute any animals to that Mr Speaker, HIV and AIDS have been integrated Remote Area Dwellers. in the school curriculum. There is also a concerted effort by the classroom teachers to infuse HIV and iii) It therefore follows that research on the quality AIDS related issues in the teaching of their respective and nutritional value of eland milk was never subjects as per the ministry’s HIV/AIDS policy which conducted. I thank you Mr Speaker. states that “HIV/AIDS education must be integrated PROGRESS MADE IN APPOINTING into the curriculum and should be made compulsory at THE CHANCELLOR FOR BOTSWANA all levels of education.”

8 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Mr Speaker, some of the strategies employed by the • Still some with properties, use their companies to schools is through the formation of clubs, whose apply for land and also buy houses as and when members are committed to teaching other learners the opportunity arises. I thank you Sir. importance of abstinence. SUSPECTS ON BAIL AT MAGISTRATES’ Regarding the impact of such policies Mr Speaker, in COURTS response to the call for behaviour change, I am glad to inform this House that the Botswana HIV and AIDS MAJ. GEN. M. R. PHETO (KWENENG EAST): Impact Survey (BIAS) III of 2008 results, show that asked the Minister for Defence, Justice and Security:- the prevalence rate of a population in each age group i) how many criminal suspects are on bail more in 2004 has not changed much in 2008. The majority than five times for similar offences for cases at of persons in this age group are secondary school Magistrates’ Courts; learners, Mr Speaker. An observation has been made to the fact that there has been reduction in discrimination ii) if he realises that such suspects continue to and stigmatisation in the school communities and accumulate charges of a similar nature and if so, the decrease in the use of sharp instruments such as how many of these have over ten charges; razor blades. It has also been observed that learners no iii) over what period have these charges been longer readily touch blood and no longer pick up litter accumulating particularly the three highest; with bare hands if they can help it. I thank you very much Mr Speaker. iv) if it is normal and fair for Magistrates to pile bails on suspects who continue to have more registered ALLOCATION OF RESIDENTIAL PLOTS TO charges of a similar nature; and BATSWANA v) what measures has the Minister put in place MR S. TSOGWANE (BOTETI NORTH): asked the to address this matter, as the Botswana Police Minister of Lands and Housing to give an update on Service spends a lot of time and resources tracing the allocation of residential plots to Batswana in the these habitual criminals. last five financial years in line with home ownership initiatives and further state the deficit experienced so MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND far regarding allocation of residential plots. SECURITY (MR D. R. SERETSE): Mr Speaker, let me just start by apologising to this Honourable House MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR that I do not have statistics on how many criminal MOLEFHI): Mr Speaker, my ministry has allocated suspects are on bail more than five times for similar 99,984 residential plots to Batswana in the past five offences for cases at Magistrates Courts. The system financial years. These are divided as follows:- is currently manual and it has not been possible in the • 6,011 plots on state land; and time given to come up with the statistics.

• 93,973 plots on customary land. However, I believe the issues concerning the Honourable Member are that, criminal suspects are It should be noted that, during the same period, the given bail and whilst on bail re-offend, and wonders private sector has also provided housing to Batswana. what measures are in place to address this problem. Mr Speaker, it is difficult to indicate a deficit or surplus in the allocation of residential plots for the following Mr Speaker, the concern of the Honourable Member reasons:- is understandable in that, there have been instances of committal of offences by suspects on bail. We share • Most Batswana have been allocated more than one this concern. residential plot in both towns and villages, while others bought from the private market. Mr Speaker, the decision to give bail to a criminal suspect lies within the discretion of the Magistrate • The number of people who apply for residential having taken into consideration all relevant matters. plots does not reflect effective demand as some of It is admitted that, on occasion, when deciding on a them already have plots in other localities. particular bail application the Magistrate may not • The numbers are further inflated by those who had have information regarding the antecedents of the been allocated plots or houses but have disposed criminal suspect before him. Hence a re-offender may of such properties only to re-apply for a second unwittingly be given bail. consideration.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 9 Monday 29th March, 2010 KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA (BADEA)) LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 (NO. 21 OF 2009) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Mr Speaker, in addressing this concern, we are and present a written request to me, but none of such investigating the development of an integrated system has been executed if not exploited. As a result, we are which enables flow of information between and going into the order of today. amongst all components of the justice system. MR MODUBULE: On a point of order Mr Speaker. I It is also through such processes as this one, that is, am standing on a point of order Honourable Speaker, I do question and answer in Parliament, that judicial officers not know whether you will allow me to proceed or not. will know the concerns of the citizenry and hopefully will take such into consideration in their deliberations MR SPEAKER: I am just wondering whether you and or cases. want to tell me that I am out of order, when I explain to you what the procedures of the House are. My office will also continue to engage the head of the judiciary with regard to this issue. I thank you Mr MR MODUBULE: Yes Honourable Speaker, I am Speaker. really saying that.

MAJ. GEN. PHETO: Would the Minister concede MR SPEAKER: Tell us what you want to say that it is unhealthy that we do not know as of now Honourable Modubule, before I rule you out. how many such suspects are continuing to pile bail. MR MODUBULE: Yes, Honourable Speaker, I MR D. R. SERETSE: I think my answer says it all. am saying you are out of order in terms of Standing Order... KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK FOR ECONOMIC MR TSOGWANE: On a point of procedure Mr DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA (BADEA)) Speaker. I think the procedure Mr Speaker is that the LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 very Honourable Member who is seeking procedure (NO. 21 OF 2009) must know that your ruling is final.

Second Reading HONOURABLE MEMBER: A re order not procedure. (Resumed Debate) MR TSOGWANE: Yes, he is ordering on the point MR MODUBULE: On a point of procedure Mr of procedure. I am talking about the earlier point of Speaker. Honourable Speaker, the procedure that I am procedure which he made. Once you have made a standing on is that, on Friday, we had a matter which ruling Mr Speaker, I do not think there is any other was said to be urgent and which was tabled in this House procedure, order, or anything, that can overrule the under Standing Order 40. I took it that, that matter ruling that you have made. Once you have made a has to be disposed of before any other Government ruling, it is final. I thank you Mr Speaker. business would take precedence over it. I am now at loss as to how it is not appearing in the Order Paper MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! I could not agree more today. Honourable Speaker, I take it that we have to with Honourable Tsogwane. May we have order please dispose of that matter before any Government business Honourable Ministers. To sum it up, Standing Order 48 could come to play. You may refer to Standing Order clearly says the ball stops in the hands of the Speaker, 21 or 22 which would definitely guide this House. That and I am not going to entertain any more dialogue from is why, Honourable Speaker, I say point of procedure. I you Honourable Modubule. That is what Standing think we have missed the procedure, in that, we have to Order 48 says. I have made a ruling on that matter. dispose of that business before we go into Government MR MODUBULE: Honourable Speaker.... business. I thank you. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Modubule you are out MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Maybe I need to thank of order. you for being procedurally aware that Standing Order 22 (2) (a) categorically says it all, that from Monday MR MODUBULE: Honourable Speaker, may you up to Thursday it is strictly Government business. please with due respect.

You do not need anything else to define it more than MR SPEAKER: Honourable Modubule, you are out that. If you should have gone further to Standing Order of order. 40, Sub-section 2, it will clearly tell you that the mover MR MODUBULE: Honourable Speaker, may I... of the motion should have come to me as the Speaker

10 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA (BADEA)) LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 (NO. 21 OF 2009) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MR SPEAKER: You cannot. ruling on the matter, until and unless you are coming out on a different issue, I am not going to entertain MR MODUBULE: May I, Honourable Speaker, any more stories on that matter. I have made a ruling. please interpret on Standing Order 48. The Standing Orders are so clear and we do not need MR SPEAKER: Honourable Modubule, I am saying anybody to come from Zambia to come and interpret you cannot. them for us. May we have order please.

MR MODUBULE: Honourable Speaker, I am saying MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification Rule 48. Honourable Speaker ... (interruption)... those Mr Speaker. powers but not to abuse the Standing Orders. MR SPEAKER: No, I am not accepting any more MR SPEAKER: Honourable Modubule, please sit clarification, that matter has been... down. MR MODUBULE: Point of order Mr Speaker.

MR MODUBULE: No, I am not. MR SPEAKER: No, there is no point of order MR SPEAKER: I will order the security to pick you Honourable Modubule. out if you are... MR MODUBULE: So you are trampling upon the MR MODUBULE: Security or no security Honourable Standing Orders themselves. Speaker, I am saying Standing Order 48 gives you MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, anybody who the powers, but not to abuse the Standing Orders, the is going to argue with me on this matter, Honourable powers to observe the rules and regulations of these Gentlemen, I am sorry I will show you my true colours, orders and you have to rule according to the orders of I shall do so, I shall order you out fa o ntshamekisa. the Standing Orders, not outside the Standing Orders. That is my contention. KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK FOR ECONOMIC MR SPEAKER: May you sit down Honourable DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA (BADEA)) Modubule, may you please sit down. LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 MR D. SALESHANDO: On a point of order Mr (NO. 21 OF 2009) Speaker. Second Reading

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Saleshando, I have made (Resumed Debate) a ruling on that matter. MR SPEAKER: The debate on the Bill is resuming MR D. SALESHANDO: Yes, but if I may on a point today. When we adjourned on Thursday, Honourable of order. I think it must be clear if the Speaker’s ruling Dumelang Saleshando was on the floor. Honourable today now means that we should adopt a different Member please. May we have order please, Honourable approach to what is written on the Standing Orders. It Ministers, ke lona batho ba bofelo gore ba nkopise should have been better for you to get the understanding tlhogo jaaka batho ba bangwe. of what the Standing Orders demand. Because if you have a motion in terms of Standing Order 40, which MR D. SALESHANDO (GABORONE CENTRAL): is what we had on Friday, it becomes a definite matter Mme kana ga se go go opisa tlhogo, ke go go balela of urgent public importance. Then because it has been Standing Orders. allowed, you then need to go back to Standing Order No. 21 which you referred to, where it lists... MR SPEAKER: Ke tloga ke go ntshetsa kwa ntle Saleshando. MR SPEAKER: 22. MR D. SALESHANDO: Ke ne ke ala Mr Speaker. MR D. SALESHANDO: Before you get to 22 there is 21, unless if 21 is now ruled out of order, but if you HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...Laughter... look at 21, public business... MR D. SALESHADO: If I may continue with the MR SPEAKER: Honourable Saleshando, please bear debate from Thursday... in mind that you just stood on a point of order despite MR MODUBULE: Point of order Honourable the fact that I have indicated to you that I have made a Speaker.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 11 Monday 29th March, 2010 KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA (BADEA)) LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 (NO. 21 OF 2009) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MR SPEAKER: Honourable Modubule, if you can down on the loan and the question must always remain. If talk on that issue, I would not be happy about it, I we were to draw down on all the approved loans, would cannot allow you. we be in compliance with the statutes that regulate the borrowing powers by Botswana. MR MODUBULE: Honourable Speaker, with due respect, I do not understand where you want to take There is also the issue of the fiscal rule that was set by this Parliament to. I have a problem, is either you Parliament. I would want the Minister to always highlight adhere to the Standing Orders or you do not. how we are performing with regard to the fiscal rule. I know there may be exceptional cases, such as where MR SPEAKER: Order Honourable Modubule! please there is a huge reduction in the generation of revenue as sit down. has happened with the performance of the diamonds in MR MODUBULE: No, I am not sitting down particular. I also want the Minister to be able to indicate Honourable Speaker. I think you are just being arrogant to the House our performance with regard to that. and against the Standing Orders themselves. Why The second issue... should I sit down, why should I? MR MOREMI: On a point of clarification Mr MR SPEAKER: Honourable Modubule, may you Speaker. Tanki Honourable Saleshando. Ke ne ke please sit down, you are delaying the progress of the kopa Rre Saleshando gore a re thuse, just for clarity. House. Gore jaanong fa Tona a tla ka kopo nngwe le nngwe, o MR MODUBULE: I am not going to sit down tshwanetse a tle ka balance sheet e e supang liabilities because you are not adhering to the Standing Orders le gore re eme fa kae ka repayments tsa liabilities tseo? themselves. Why sit down? Sa bobedi gape, molao o a neng a o nopola ole, re ka o batlela fa kae? MR SPEAKER: Then I will show you I have powers to run this House. MR D. SALESHANDO: Honourable Moremi, I do not know the full citation of the law, but there are MR MODUBULE: Of course you have the powers. instruments in place that regulate the extent to which You can do whatever you want to do, but I am not we can borrow. All I am saying is that, it needs not to going to be subjected to such kind of behaviour by the be the entire balance sheet of the government or the Speaker, it is totally unprocedural and uncalled for. country. It could be an indication of what percentage of, for example GDP, are we really sourcing as debt, and to MR D. SALESHANDO: I am a bit taken off. make sure that we are within the boundaries of the law. MR SPEAKER: You have my protection Honourable On issues of citizen economic empowerment, Saleshando. Honourable Speaker, the problem has been that, in the MR D. SALESHANDO: Anyway Mr Speaker, the loan past when we lobbied for greater citizen participation request by the Ministry of Finance as I had indicated, in projects that are financed through debt, we were enjoys my support, but there are a few issues that I always made aware of the fact that there are conditions would like the Minister to take up. The first issue which to the loan. It does not appear to me that with this has been raised in the past Mr Speaker, is that we have particular one, there are conditions that would make laws in this country that govern the extent of securing it difficult to enforce some requirements for citizen debt, in other words, laws dealing with the gearing of empowerment. My question to the Minister is, do the country, the total permissible debt. In future my we really need to wait until we have a policy and a request woul be that, every time there is a request for an law on citizen economic empowerment for us to start additional loan, the Minister must indicate the extent to getting some serious considerations for participation which we are within the perimeters set by the law. In the by citizens? Is the Minister not sufficiently empowered past this has been calculated excluding approved loans to put in place some programme, some regulations or a that have not been drawn down on. I think the correct directive to try and achieve greater citizen participation way of doing it should be to show the gearing position in targeted projects that are of big value? What stops the of the country using all approved debts, including those Minister for example, from directing those responsible that we have not drawn down on. Because, once they for dealing with the issuance of tenders that a certain have been approved by the House, the drawing down percentage must be targeted for citizen contractors? is a mere formality. It means that at the Minister’s If there is nothing that stops the Minister from doing convenience or at the appropriate time, we will draw that, my request is that, we ought to do it now and not

12 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA (BADEA)) LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 (NO. 21 OF 2009) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) necessarily say we will wait for the policy and after Botswana money be utilised outside the country. Yes, it the policy some will say, why not wait for the law on may be true that it is cheaper to raise the funds outside. citizen economic empowerment. But you know, there is a hidden cost to it, and part of that hidden cost is normally the conditions that come with These are difficult times when citizen contractors are these external funds. Why can we not develop our own on a daily basis confronted with prospects of closure financial instruments within Botswana? Why can we not on account of minimal business opportunities. In these give an impetus to the domestic economy by borrowing difficult times, the external contractors to the human internally, even if it is at a higher cost? You would have eye are smiling all the way to the bank in Botswana. the benefit of setting the conditions convenient to us. If you take the airports, different stadia, roads, dams, external contractors are smiling all the way to the MR GOYA: Clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker. I bank. They are making good money in Botswana. just want the Honourable Member to say to this House, Domestic contractors are sitting on the fringes and whether he would not concede that the reason why we we are saying, “look and wait until there is the law on borrow externally is because the interest rates that are citizen economic empowerment.” We cannot proceed offered to us are very low. The other way round; if we along these lines. The value of being an independent were to borrow locally, it would mean that those who country is diminished by the lack of participation in have invested in the pension funds locally, would not economic activity by citizens. All I am asking is for the yield good interest, good revenue from the borrowing Minister to consider some short-term measures whilst done locally. I thank you. we await the formulation of a more comprehensive policy or law on citizen economic empowerment. MR D. SALESHANDO: I think you are stating the There must be some short-term measures. At the end facts as we all know them. I have actually alluded to the of the day, I do not think Batswana just want the fact that it may appear cheaper to borrow from external airport, they would want to benefit more out of this sources, but the catch which makes the cost higher like airport during the construction phase. If you go to I said, are the conditions that we subjected ourselves Kasane, the levels of exclusion of citizens from the to. You are unable to have a ripple effect within the main economy are so apparent for everyone to see. economy. In other projects, not this one, there were The general environment within the town of Kasane cheaper rates being offered. As a result, Batswana are outside the lodges, represent the first world and the blocked out from this boom. It is as if it is divorce from fourth world in terms of economic status. You cannot the rest of the economy. We are all watching foreign have this opulence and gross outright poverty leaving companies taking full advantage of this. It is mainly side by side and not putting in place measures to try because of the conditions that came with some of the and remedy the situation. That is all I am asking for loans, particularly the Chinese originated loans. So, it the Minister to do to try and formulate some bridging appears cheaper on face value, but when you look at regulations; bridging in the sense that we still would be the full implications, the impact it has on the economy, waiting for a proper policy and a proper law. the inability of the citizens to participate. There are some hidden costs to those loans. All I am saying is On the final point, when the 2009 Budget Speech was that, why can we not bite the bullet if it allows us read; mention was made of the fact that we are going greater flexibility to set our own conditions around to experience a shortfall in the revenue, and that this project? Who is responsible for the higher cost government will adopt a two prong strategy of raising of borrowing in Botswana anyway? Is it not us? Are additional funds through borrowing both externally we not running away from our own problem? Are we and internally. We are a few days from the end of the not running away from our own image on the mirror financial year. I have not heard in these 12 months of because the cost of finance or the cost of borrowing in the financial year or seen an instrument being brought to Botswana? It is something that is within the capacity the House to raise loans from the domestic economy. In of Botswana to control. It is not as if it is a foreign terms of borrowing from the external sources, we have imposed instrument and we ought to run away from it had quite a number of instruments. When are we really and opt for cheaper options outside. going to raise these loans internally? I do not understand the logic through which government could go out and Still related to this one on raising that, also we have say, ‘we will raise money outside the country’. Funds caution. For a number of years, Botswana has operated that we have internally are available as in funds for a surplus budget, and it therefore made it unnecessary example held by pension funds. They are investing for us to raise loans. I have never worked within the outside the country in international financial markets; Ministry of Finance and Development Planning, so I am not well placed to judge the ability to manage

Hansard No 163 Part 4 13 Monday 29th March, 2010 KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA (BADEA)) LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 (NO. 21 OF 2009) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) debt. Managing debt also requires certain skills which so far, but certainly it is more than P3 Billion. It has we have not had to develop over the years because we been ongoing, so it is not correct to say that it has not were running a surplus budget. All of a sudden, you are started. Thank you. faced with billions and billions of Pula in debt. Do we have the capacity to manage this debt before it spirals MR D. SALESHANDO: Well, I also do not want to out of control? We cannot claim to have the capacity engage in a dialogue, but there were instances in this if we have not... House when we were debating similar Bills as this one where Minister Gaolathe said the strategy is actually MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT to leave internal borrowing to parastatals for them to PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Point of clarification. source funds for their development expenditure from Mr Speaker, I had thought that I would wait until the the domestic economy. There is no clarity on this, Honourable Member has finished for me to respond. I maybe I do not appreciate how the Ministry of Finance realised that he is mentioning one thing after the other, and Development Planning functions. In future, when which things actually I have already touched upon authorising such permission to borrow from the either in the Budget Speech or last week when maybe he external sources, I would want to get greater assurance was absent. For example, borrowing locally, I clarified of what is being done in the domestic economy. In the last week that that time is coming, and it is also in our past as I said, assurances were made. I am not aware of Budget Speech. It is stated that we are going to present the progress that has been registered and would want programmes of issuing bonds in order to borrow locally. that to be addressed. Those were my issues of... So, it is not as if we are not doing it, we are going to do it and we do not have much choice but to do it. We ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND are investing pension fund abroad and not locally and SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): I this is also a realisation that we accepted in the Budget would like Honourable Saleshando perhaps by way Speech. I have indicated in the Budget Speech that this of going down the memory lane to say whether or not is something that we will be working hard on to ensure he does not recall that the Minister of Finance and that a greater percentage than the 30 per cent that we Development Planning was in fact issuing a cautionary are now investing locally. It is actually increased so statement or a cautionary approach. That said that while that we can invest more here. Managing debt is also in domestic borrowings were an option, but care must be the Budget Speech, I do not know whether you have taken not to crowd out the private sector. In other words, already forgotten Honourable Member. We said that, whether he does not recall that it was not stated as a no “yes, we agree with you entirely.” This situation is go, but it was more of saying that care must be taken not new and therefore we need expertise to manage debt to crowd out the private sector in that area. and we indicated that we are actually consulting with MR D. SALESHANDO: O tloga a senyetsa Rre Matambo, the World Bank so that they can assist us in putting in mma re e tlogele gone foo. I think the explanation that has place a debt management strategy. So, all these things, been given by the Minister suffices because you are just Honourable Saleshando are in place, it is not a new about to reverse the import of his message. Mr Speaker, I thing. Thank you Honourable Member. have no further comments to make.

MR D. SALESHANDO: Yes, those who have been in MR MATAMBO: Thank you Mr Speaker. I wish I the House a little bit earlier than you, may remember that could be brief. Let me start by thanking the Honourable after Honourable Gaolathe presented the last Budget Members for the full support that they have given Speech, I raised some of these things midstream during to a Bill before you. In the same context, I would the financial year that when are we going to borrow like to thank Honourable Minister of Transport and from the domestic economy and he said it is just about Communications for clarifying some of the queries to come. We are at the end of the financial year and it that were raised during the debate. has not been done. I know you are making the same assurance and I would like to believe that indeed it is There are many issues that have been raised Mr coming. All I am saying is, we have been promised Speaker. I will not comment on all of them as a matter over and over again; are there difficulties... of fact. The majority of them are really for the Ministry of Transport and Communications to take care of MR MATAMBO: Point of correction Mr Speaker. It during implementation. But let me start touching on is not correct Honourable Speaker to say that it has not those that needs to be clarified. I think I would agree been done. The issuance of Treasury Bills and bonds with Honourable Rammidi that we should not only just has been ongoing during the course of this year. I improve the airport; we should do something about the cannot remember exactly the figure that we have raised

14 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA (BADEA)) LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 (NO. 21 OF 2009) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) town itself. I understand that there are many projects that in this case, it is reimbursement. In other words, in the development plan which is aimed at improving Botswana will be using its own money to pay the the outlook of Kasane town. In the same vein, I would contractor, and immediately putting a claim to the bank agree with Honourable Mabiletsa that we should not in to recover the money as quickly as possible. improving the outlook of Kasane also go beyond them to spoil the good scenery of the surrounding tourist Why are we starting the project in 2011/2012? I wish areas. We should be careful about that. we could start it earlier. But as it can be appreciated, these designs and the need to go to tendering and Honourable Nshimwe, I think you have been answered. then evaluate the tenders and so forth, all take time. The VIP lounge, the runway lights and the security are Honourable Goya, grace period… all part of this project. I would agree with you that the stages of implementation should be followed very MR MODUBULE: On a point of clarification Mr strictly so that we do not have cost overruns. Speaker. Was the reimbursement process the best for Botswana? Honourable Molebatsi had suggested that we should be building a runway that would accommodate 747 and not MR MATAMBO: I think it is the best for Botswana just the 737. I think you were adequately responded to and that is why we have chosen it. That means that we by Honourable Kwelagobe, whom I thank very much will be able to pay the contractor immediately. But I for that clarification. It is all a question of resources, think the most important thing is that, once we have traffic and so forth. paid the contractor, we must submit the claim also immediately so that we do not find a situation whereby Honourable Modubule, he has raised a number of we are depleting our resources fast while waiting for issues regarding the currency; the Pula equivalent. But the reimbursement. also, I think more importantly regarding the conditions, and it is not just Honourable Modubule on this issue Honourable Goya was asking about the grace period of of conditions. Honourable Mmolotsi and to some five years, and what is happening to the interest during extent I think Honourable Saleshando has been raising that time. I think that is a very good question which I the issues. On currency, I think we are agreed. This also asked. But the answer is that, yes, the interest will is going to change from time to time. So, the figure be charged during the grace period, but of course, it that is in the Bill right now is what the Pula equivalent is charged on the amounts already disbursed and the was at the time we were preparing the Bill. On the amount already received by Botswana. interest rate Honourable Modubule, you were saying Honourable Gilson Saleshando; foreign contractors. that the earlier loan from OPEC Fund for International It is the same thing that Honourable Saleshando for Development (OFID), the interest there was much Gaborone Central is raising, that, it is the foreign lower than the one that is attached to the current loan. contractors who are going to enjoy these monies that I agree with you, that is correct. I wish the interest you are approving. That is correct Honourable Speaker, rate was lower like in the case of the loan that comes but I think this is a function of our level of technological from OFID. But unfortunately, these are two separate development. Because, right now, I wish that we had financing institutions, and they have different terms for companies that could do these airports, dams and so their loans because it all depends on the cost of capital forth. We would not need to go anywhere to tender. But that they raise to provide these loans. for as long as our technical capacities is what it is right Regarding procurement procedures, again raised by now, I am afraid that we will always have, especially Honourable Modubule. I would like to indicate that the where we are being asked to tender internationally, general conditions regarding procurement are that, we because we are using money that comes from the should follow international competitive bidding. But international sources. We will find that invariably, we in this case as I indicated, BADEA is a bank that is are at a disadvantage and we will find… owned by a number of Arab countries, and they would MR KWELAGOBE: On a point of clarification Mr also require that such competitive bidding should also Speaker. Ke dumelana le Tona se a se buang. Ke ne apply to their own countries. Therefore, some kind of ke re ke botse Tona gore, a o ne a sa bone gore go ka preference for the companies in their own countries is nna botoka gore dikompone tsa rona mono le tsone di going to be something to be taken into account. tle di nonofe di nne le boitseanape. Go batliwe tsela Disbursement procedures; is it direct payment to e ka tsone dikompone tse di tswang ka kwa ntle, go contractors or is it reimbursement? I am informed nne le condition ya gore e ne e re mo projects tse, ba patelesega go tsenya Batswana. Ga ke re ba tsenye

Hansard No 163 Part 4 15 Monday 29th March, 2010 KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA (BADEA)) LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 (NO. 21 OF 2009) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Motswana semangmang, go tsenya Batswana so that Fa e le gore o tlile gore ga go na kganetsanyo, kana technology e ba nang nayo e tle e kgone gore e tsene ba bangwe ba rona re setse re tsofaletse fa. Re na le mo go ba ga rona. A Tona o ne a sa go bone go ka re more than 10 years go ntse go buiwa exactly the same thusa gore dikompone tsa rona le tsone di tle di nonofe thing that you are saying. Jaanong ke re gone golo fa fa go ka nna le conditions tse di ntseng jalo? Tona, tota o tshwanetse gore e re le fa o bua ke rata mowa wa gago, fa ke re ke public relations statement, MR MATAMBO: Thank you Mr Speaker. I was ke tsaya fela ka gore successive Ministers across all actually coming to that point; it is just that the the Ministries have been saying what you are saying, Honourable Member was too quick. What I was going but we are not seeing any action. I thank you. to say was that, we are in total agreement about the principle of having our Batswana companies attached, MR MOREMI: Mr Speaker, ke botsa fela Tona wa if you like, to these major projects. As a matter of fact, Finance gore, kana madi a loan e ke P56 million. A I would like to say that it is not as if we are waiting for ka ene P56 million fa e le gore I am correct, re ne re some law or a policy for this to take place. It is actually ka se ke re dire a pilot project fela re re e 100 per cent taking place now. It is just that maybe information has Batswana? Ga go tlhoke technology jaaka Tona a bua. not gone across. Ke brawn not brains: to push around wheelbarrow and trucks. Re ne re ka seke ra lekeletsa fela go bona gore a There are a number of projects Mr Speaker, where we re ka seka ra kgona 100 per cent Tswana engagement? actually do have citizen contractors being subcontractors to these big projects. It is all there and we are not MR MATAMBO: Thank you Mr Speaker. I do not think waiting for a policy. The only difference I think is this, we can run a pilot on this one. We have already gone too and I have to agree with some of your comments. The far rightly so in seeking loans from outside to implement only difference is that, we are not doing it as a matter this project. This is the second loan that you are about to of legal requirement. It is more of practical terms, we approve, and it has conditions as I have said. We have are saying to the foreign contractors that, as and when to do tendering internationally. But next time after, as they engage in this project, they must bring along as I say, the responsible authorities have looked at all the subcontractors and as I say, that is already happening. suggestions maybe we can do that with our own money. The only other thing which is not happening is that, we do not have a percentage stipulated to say that Honourable Mabiletsa, I do not know, you say I am Batswana contractors must take this percentage of the doing public relations. I have been told that I am not total project. I accept that is not there. My suggestion good at public relations, so indeed I am not doing will be that, these are things that we are taking serious any public relations. It is just that maybe what the note of, and as we continue implementing our projects Honourable Member knows is something else, what I even the Minister of Transport is listening. These are know is another. I am saying, and I will say it many things that I think the Ministries will seriously look times in this House. That, what you are suggesting at and look at the practicalities of introducing some is happening right now. I think maybe we need an of these things. Otherwise, I do not think we are all party caucus where we can actually show you the disagreeing on the principle; we are in agreement. information on the different projects.

MR MABILETSA: On a point of clarification The amount which are actually being enjoyed by Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. Thank you Botswana contractors, not small money bo P50 million, Honourable Minister. Ke ne ke re ka fa o e buang ka P40 million doing the roads that you are talking about, teng Motlotlegi Tona le o re ga go na kganetsanyo, ke the short roads and so forth, especially in connection e leba more like a public relations statement. Do you with the dams. I am aware it is happening. So, it is just know why I say that? Ke gore go na le basic services a question of passing information. tse di sa tlhokeng le fa e le skill, mme fela tse di batlang Mr Speaker, I think I could go on and on, but really the gore re bo re rutuntshitse Batswana ka tsone go di dira. issues were common and those were the primary ones Transportation ya go ga mmu ka bomatipane, o ya go especially the conditions. We were not in a position fitlhela e le gore tsone dikonteraka tse di tlang tse, ba and it is possible that I can lay out all the conditions itlela ka bomatipane ba bone, their own caterpillars le which are in this big book that I mentioned to you. sengwe le sengwe. Nna ke ipotsa gore a ga re a tsena mo We will try in the future to provide as much as it is seemong sa gore re le G Goromente re ka re, “nnyaa, practically possible. fa e le services tse e leng gore tota Batswana ba ka di kgona, tseo e nne the domain ya Batswana.” Bone HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification ba dirise skill gore ba batla gore go dirwe eng le eng. Honourable Minister. Clarification before you move.

16 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA (BADEA)) LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 (NO. 21 OF 2009) - Committee Stage MR MATAMBO: But I am just moving. I would like to MR MODUBULE: Mr Chairman, Clause 1. move Mr Speaker that, the Kasane Airport Project (ARAB Bank for Economic Development in Africa) (BADEA) MR CHAIRMAN: Mme kana ga o a... Loan Authorisation Bill, 2009 (No. 21 of 2009) be read MR MODUBULE: Mr Speaker, I am not moving any for the second time. I thank you Mr Speaker. amendment, amendments are to be noticed. I would Question put and agreed to. like the Honourable Minister to clarify the question I posed during the debate as to whether we are going to Committee - Later today be saying; currently this is what we are saying. What I am saying is that, if we pass the Bill today, it is going ASSEMBLY IN COMMITTEE to reflect today’s date. When you say currently, are we (CHAIRMAN in the Chair) referring to today’s date or to the day when the Bill was published? The Bill is going to say, ‘it was passed MAGISTRATES’ COURTS (AMENDMENT) by Parliament on the 20 something’s date’ and then BILL, 2009 (NO. 19 OF 2009) his prediction or calculation was based on the rates at which date he published the Bill. MR CHAIRMAN: Order! Order! Honourable Members. The Magistrate Courts Amendment Bill Now, when we say, ‘currently this is the amount’, 2009, Bill No. 19 of 2009 has three clauses and no which of the two dates are we referring to? The date amendments have been noticed. I shall call the three on which the Bill was published or the date on which clauses all at once. the Bill was actually passed by Parliament? That is my predicament, and this is why I want this House Clauses 1-3 agreed to. to be clear. Honourable Minister is saying, are we INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL going with the figure of the day on which the Bill was ORGANISATIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2009 published, which currently will then refer to that date. (NO. 20 OF 2009) Or are we referring, when we see currently, to the date on which the Bill was passed by this Parliament. That MR CHAIRMAN: Order! Order! Honourable is my argument Mr Speaker. I am not suggesting any Members the International Financial Organisations amendment, I just want clarification. (Amendment) Bill, 2009 (No. 20 of 2009) has seven clauses and no amendments have been noticed. I shall MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT call all the clauses in groups. PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): I thank you Mr Chairman. I think that in this particular case, I would Clauses 1-7 -agreed to. like to agree with Honourable Modubule, and therefore seek permission to introduce an amendment without INDUSTRIAL PROPERTY BILL, 2009 (NO. 15 prior notice. As we said last week, everybody is in OF 2009) agreement here; it is actually Clause 2 that he is talking MR CHAIRMAN: Order! Order! Honourable about. The amount in Pula there is very clear, it says the Members, Industrial Property Bill, 2009 (No. 15 of current exchange rate equivalent of P57.803,468. So it 2009) Honourable Members has 140 clauses and no is the current exchange rate equivalent as at the date th amendments have been noticed. I shall call the clauses of this Bill, which is 11 December 2009. Honourable in groups. Modubule is saying that, when the Act comes out, it is going to have another date which is not 11th December Clauses 1-140 -agreed to. 2009. I am prepared to agree that we introduce a very small amendment which will then read the same as in KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT the Bill, which came here in respect of the loan from (ARAB BANK FOR ECONOMIC the Opec Fund for international development. I think DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA (BADEA)) the amendment, if I go on Mr Chairman, will be that, LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 after the amount here, if you look at Clause 2 after the (NO. 21 OF 2009) amount which is P57.803,468 you would then add at MR CHAIRMAN: Honourable Members, the Kasane the time of preparing this Bill. I think that is what we Airport Project (ARAB Bank for Economic Development have in the other Bill. In other words it will say, “The in Africa (BADEA) Loan Authorisation Bill, 2009 (No. current exchange rate equivalent of P57, 803, 468 at 21 of 2009) has six clauses and no amendments have the time of preparing this Bill,” just after the amount. been noticed. I shall call the clauses in groups.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 17 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

MR CHAIRMAN: Thank you Honourable Minister. Third Reading- later today. Honourable Members, the question is that Clauses 1 to 3 stand part of the Bill? INDUSTRIAL PROPERTY BILL, 2009 (NO. 15 OF 2009) MR D. SALESHANDO: On a point of procedure Mr Chairman. I think the question should be whether we The Bill was reported from Committee without agree to the amendment or not. amendments.

MR CHAIRMAN: Maybe we have to go for break, so Third Reading- later today. that it is brought to me in a written form. Then I can put KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK the question to the House. It has come back to light. FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR (BADEA)) LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 APPROXIMATELY 25 MINUTES (NO. 21 OF 2009)

MR CHAIRMAN: Order! Order! We were at Clause The Bill was reported from Committee with 1, re baakantse jaanong. amendments.

Clause 1 -agreed to. Third Reading- later today.

Clause 2 THIRD READINGS

MR CHAIRMAN: The question is that amendment at The following Bills were read a third time and passed. Clause 2 be agreed to. A ke re we have moved. MAGISTRATES’ COURTS (AMENDMENT) Order! Order! Honourable Members, yes, maybe what BILL, 2009 (NO. 19 OF 2009) I will have to do, because the Honourable Minister (Minister of Defence, Justice and Security) has at an earlier stage read it, ke ka mo kopa gore a e bale gore le tle le e utlwe sentle. Then we will move. INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL Honourable Minister, that particular Clause. ORGANISATIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2009 (NO. 20 OF 2009) Clause 2 (Minister of Finance and Development Planning) MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Thank you Mr INDUSTRIAL PROPERTY BILL, 2009 (NO. 15 Chairman. The amendment being proposed at Clause OF 2009) 2 of the Bill is the following; Clause 2 of the Bill is amended by inserting immediately after the figure (Minister of Trade and Industry) P57.803,468 the words, I quote the words to be KASANE AIRPORT PROJECT (ARAB BANK inserted, “At the time of preparing the Bill.” FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IN AFRICA Amendment -agreed to. (BADEA) LOAN AUTHORISATION BILL, 2009 (NO. 21 OF 2009) Clause 2 as amended -agreed to. (Minister of Finance and Development Planning) Clause 3 -agreed to. VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN Clauses 4 to 6 -agreed to. THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010

The Bill was reported from Committee without Resolution amendment. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT Third Reading- later today. PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Mr Speaker, the statutory Instrument No. 16 of 2010, proposing an INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL increase of 2 per cent in the rate of tax under Value Added ORGANISATIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2009 Tax Act was published in the Government Gazette on 8th (NO. 20 OF 2009) March 2010, and tabled before this Honourable House th The Bill was reported from Committee without on 15 March 2010. The proposal was first announced amendments. during 2010/2011 Budget Speech.

18 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

Honourable Members will recall that the Value Added a person in the ordinary course of operating a public Tax was introduced in Botswana in 2002 at the rate medical facility, supply of prescription drugs, supply of 10 per cent. The introduction of this tax was of education services, supply of domestic passenger necessitated by the need to diversify and increase the transportation by road or rail and supply of condoms. Government revenue base. It is worth noting that our These items, Mr Speaker, especially the foodstuffs, have rate has been the lowest in the region. For example, the a relatively heavy weight in the consumption basket of VAT rates range from 14 per cent in the Republic of the poor. Consequently, the VAT increase will have a South Africa to 16 per cent in Zambia. Even after the 2 relatively smaller impact on the poor and low income per cent increase, our rate would still remain amongst groups than on the higher income groups. the lowest in the region. With regard to the issue raised by Honourable Under the Statutory Instrument No. 16 of 2010, I am Members regarding the increase on VAT and non- proposing that the rate of Value Added Tax be increased award of an increase in civil service salaries, I need from the current 10 per cent to 12 per cent with effect to point out that, the two are not necessarily related. from 1st April 2010. Due to the global economic recession The VAT increase affects the whole economy, which and the decline in revenue particularly from the mineral includes both the public and private sector employees. sector, the government has to find ways of raising As I pointed out in my Budget Speech in February, we revenue to be able to continue financing development shall address the civil service pay when the economic projects as well as recurrent expenditure. Government situation improves. needs revenue Honourable Members, to build schools, hospitals, roads and to provide water and electricity; Mr Speaker, I wish to emphasise that there are no easy just to mention a few. It is also common knowledge Mr options when it comes to finding ways to increase Speaker, that people are the most important asset of any revenue in order to finance this deficit. Another country; hence there is a need to continue providing option is to further reduce development and recurrent anti-retroviral medicine to those who are HIV positive expenditures. Recurrent expenditure requests from or those who are suffering from AIDS. With 10 per cent Ministries have already been reduced by 10 per cent VAT rate, revenue collected amounted to about P3.8 during the budget preparation exercise. Our view is billion per annum. After the 2 per cent increase, we that, it would not be appropriate to reduce development have estimated that we will collect about P4.5 billion expenditure as that could affect the growth of our per annum. The increased revenue of P700 million per economy and ongoing development projects that we annum will no doubt go a long way in contributing to are just about to complete. It would also not be easy the development of our economy. to reduce recurrent expenditure through, for example, reduction in wages and salaries. Retrenchment of In addition, an increase in the VAT is part of our government employees has also been avoided, and I strategy to convince those who will be asked to finance think that is the right thing to do. These are the hard the deficit, namely domestic and international lenders, choices we need to make. that we are on a sustainable fiscal path. As I noted in my Budget Speech, if there is any hint that government At the end of the day, Mr Speaker, the decision has to is running a cumulative deficit that it cannot finance be made by the Executive or this Honourable House as comfortably over the medium term, then the cost of to what method we have to use to address the budget financing in the form of interest payments, which deficit. We could raise revenue from increases in VAT, become a first call on government’s revenue, would personal income taxes, company tax and raising levies rise substantially. This, in turn, would mean that both on services or reducing development and recurrent recurrent and development budgets have to be further expenditures, or retrenching staff. We believe that reduced in order to pay the higher interests costs. This provided we minimise the negative impact on the situation I would submit must be avoided. poor and low the income group, as we do through exemption or zero-rating of essential foodstuffs and In our choice of VAT as a source of additional revenue, supplies, it is appropriate we believe, to ask Batswana we recognised that many foodstuffs consumed mainly to make a small contribution to the financing of their by the poor are zero-rated while supplies of some own development projects in the form of a 2 per cent services also consumed by the poor remain exempt from increase in the rate of Value Added Tax. VAT. Zero-rated foodstuffs include sorghum or maize meal for human consumption, millet grain, millet meal, Mr Speaker, I now move that this Honourable House wheat grain, maize cobs, flour, sugar and Setswana resolves that the Value Added Tax (Increase in the beans. Exempted supplies include supply of services by Rate of Tax) Order, 2010 which was published in the Government Gazette as Statutory Instrument Number

Hansard No 163 Part 4 19 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

16 of 2010 and was laid before this Honourable House Phikwe, e ya Serule. Mma gongwe gape ke tlhalose on 15th March 2010, be approved by this Honourable Motlotlegi Rraetsho Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa House. I thank you Mr Speaker. Palamente gore, ga re tshwane le mafatshe a mangwe ba e reng fa ba adimile madi, atle a utlwalelwe gotwe a MR SPEAKER (MR MABILETSA): Order! Order! rekile ditlhobolo kana a feletse mo dipateng tsa bangwe Good afternoon Honourable Members. I will be batho. Mo lefatsheng le re pharologanyo thata. Fa re presiding over the proceedings of this House for the tswa go adima madi jaana, re dira ditlhobolo…. rest of the day until we adjourn at 7 o’clock. MR KHWAE: Point of clarification. Honourable Members, on a particular subject like this one, there is no guillotine. The Chair will be at your MR SPEAKER: Tlhaloso is requested and I recognise mercy as to how you want to apply yourselves. But we it is the Honourable Member for Kgalagadi North. must bear in mind that whilst we debate, we must at Honourable Member, take your seat. When you request the same time try to be productive and bearing in mind for an intervention, you have to wait upon the Speaker that there are other members that would like to take the to call down your name. If you do not do that you are in floor. So, the floor is open Honourable Members. violate of the Chair. So, Honourable Member, the chair is now legitimately yours given to you by the Speaker. MR MOATLHODI (TONOTA SOUTH): Ke tsaya Thank you. sebaka se Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, go lebogela nako e o e nkadimileng. Ke tla MR KHWAE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Ke ne ke re jaana mo Ntlong kgolo e ke romilwe ke batho ba kgaolo Honourable Moatlhodi a ntlhalosetse countries which e kgolo ya Tonota Borwa. Ke batho ba lefatshe le. he refers to a re ba reka ditlhobolo ka madi one a ba a adimang. Mma fela la ntlha ke tlhalose Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente gore, ka Setswana ra re, MR MOATLHODI: Ke a leboga Motlotlegi Motsamaisa lerotse la makotswa ga le na kgodu. Ga re ka ke ra Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Kana fa Motlotlegi Rraetsho tshedisa pitsa ka makopo. Phillip Khwae a ne a utlwile ke bua lengwe leina la lefatshe, o ka bo a nthaya a re, “wa re lefatshe lefe?” Mo sebakeng sa gompieno, ke batla go galaletsa puso ya Ke rile mangwe, ke bua tlotlo ya Setswana e gotweng lefatshe le. Ke galaletse Tona wa Madi le Ditlhabololo leina la motho le rekwa ka kgomo. Jaanong ke tlhalosa gore, madi a a tsamayang a ya go a adima a bo a a kopa pharologanyo ya rona, ke ne ke sa tswa go bua Motlotlegi kwa mafatsheng a mangwe, re ntse re itse sentle gore Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, gore mangwe lerotse la makotswa ga le na kgodu, kgomo ya mafisa madi a re kileng ra a adima kwa Germany re aga tsela e re e gama re lebile tsela. Madi a fa a tsena mono, re dira e tswa kwa Selebi Phikwe e ya Serule, ka 1976. E rile ditlhabololo ka one, re aga dipatela, dikole e bile re bo moemedi wa Germany ka 1976 a ya go bona tsela e, a re betle le ditsela ka one. E bo e re fa re fetsa, fa project bo a re madi a le a dirisitse sentle. Ga e sa tlhole e le e re e dirang re sena go e dira, beng ba madi a, ... kadimo jaanong ke mpho. Jaanong ke leka go supa ka fa MR D. SALESHANDO: On a point of procedure. It madi a mafatshe a mangwe a e a reng re a adimile, re a is a minor procedural issue. We are debating resolution dirise sentle ka teng. number one, the staff handed out speech for resolution Turning now to the business of today. Motlotlegi number two. I just wanted to bring it to the attention of Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke batla go leba the Minister. So that may be the correct one, it could be Motlotlegi Rraetsho Tona wa madi Rraetsho Kenneth circulated as the debate continues. Ontefetse Matambo, Rraagwe Kagiso. Ka Setswana MR SPEAKER: Honourable Saleshando, Gaborone gatwe sedibo se a re go tlala se isiwe banneng. Central, I can see the Minister nodding his head in MR SPEAKER: Honourable Deputy Speaker, Member agreement to what you are submitting. So, I take it that for Tonota South, I call upon you to desist from he will make the necessary arrangement. responding to side remarks. Just carry on with your MR MOATLHODI: Ke a go leboga Motlotlegi debate, flowing, ignoring the side remarks please. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke ne ke santse MR MOATLHODI: Ke ne ke santse ke raya Motlotlegi ke le fa ntlheng e e reng, fa re sena go nna madi a re tla Tona wa tsa Madi le Ditlhabololo ke re, kana ka Setswana re a dirisa, re a dirise. Re adimile madi a mantsi thata. gatwe sedibo se a re go tlala se isiwe banneng. O akantse Re adimile madi ngogatlola ka Eighth Parliament re sentle thata Tona le bana ba gago ba ba tlhwatlhwa kgolo, aga matlo a BHC kwa Kasane le Palapye. Re adimile gore lefatshe la rona le tlhaelelwa ke madi mo pakeng e madi a Germany, re aga tsela e e tswang kwa Selebi re leng mo go yone. Re tlhoka madi go tla go tsweledisa

20 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution ditiro, ditlhabololo tsa lefatshe le. Ka Setswana gatwe shall be yielded. Bagaetsho, ga se bogologolo Tona wa noka e tlatswa ke melatswana. Fa o ntse o leba Motlotlegi tsa madi a re bolelela gore ditiro dingwe tsa lefatshe Rraetsho Tona le bana ba gago ba ba tlhwatlhwa kgolo, le, di ya go kgaolwa. Ditsela kwa kgaolong ya me tse le akanya gore mengwe ya melatswana e le ka lekang tharo di ya go kgaolwa, ga di ye go dirwa. Tsela e e go fata, gore metsi a tle a tswe mo go one go thusa tswang mo Gerald Estate le borogo jwa yone e tlola ditlhabololo tsa lefatshe le, ke lekgetho la dithoto, VAT. O noka ya Shashe, e tsena mo motseng wa Shashemooke, akantse sentle thata le bana ba gago. Ke dumalana le lona ga e ye go dirwa. Pelo ya me e rotha madi. Tsela e ka fa le akantseng ka teng. e tswang mo motseng wa Mmandunyane e ralala motse wa Shashemooke, Borolong, Chadibe e ya kwa Gape ke tshwanetse ke go lebogele gore, e rile mo Mathangwane, Makobo, le Natale ga e ye go dirwa. kakanyong ya gago Tona, wa akanya gore fa o ka kgaola Tsela e e tswang mo Tonota e ya kwa Francistown ga e batho mo ditirong, o tla a bo o sa dira sentle. O ne o ye go dirwa. Dilo tse tsotlhe, ke fa sekai… akanya Tona gore fa o ka kgethisa batho ka bongwe ka bongwe personal tax, o tla a bo o sa dira sentle thata. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Member. I Ka lebaka la gore babereki le badirelapuso ba lefatshe wish to draw your attention and indeed the attention of the le, ba ntse dingwagangwaga ba sa bone dikokeletso. entire House that the request before us is to approve VAT Jaanong fa le okeditse lekgetho mo dikamogelong tsa increase. Anything else outside that trying to make a case bone, o ne o tla a bo o fala pitsa bokwakwadi, o e fala or trying to refer to the past is really a matter extraneous bogogo. And I need to confess Honourable Speaker to the matter before us. I crave your indulgence that that VAT, this particular time is a necessary evil. whilst you have the right to debate, and for the Speaker to allow a free flow of debate, it is proper that you try and HONOURABLE MEMBER: ... (Inaudible)... restrict your observation to the matter before the House. MR MOATLHODI: You are on your own Minister I am afraid I do not have to invoke any provisions of the Mokaila. Go botlhokwa bagaetsho. Re tshwanetse re Standing Order, but I thought I should let you know that itse re bo re tlhaloganye gore lekgetho ka bolone ke that really the matter is increase of state house, yes we selo se se botlhoko. Fa ke bua ka lekgetho Motlotlegi need funds, do you agree or do you disagree? That is Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke gakologelwa really the question before us. I thank you. Morena Jesu Keresete a le mo mokorong. E bile ke MR MOATLHODI: Kana dikai tse ke di fa jaana nako ya paseka ke bitse mowa o o boitshepo o tle mo go leka go supa gore ke amogela Tona ka matsogo a go nna. Bontsintsi jwa batho fa bo tla kwa go ene, a ba mabedi. bolelela ka ditiro tse di farologanyeng, go tla kwa go ene a Tax Collector, Mokgethise. Tax Collector a re, HONOURABLE MEMBER: O ganetsanya le “Master, you have been telling everybody what he is Speaker? supposed to do, what do you think as a Tax Collector I should do?” The Lord Jesus Christ replied and said, MR MOATLHODI: A ko o didimale wena. Go ka ‘go and collect tax but do not collect more.’ Certainly, bo gotwe o mogwagwadi wa me, jaanong o bua jaaka Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, motho fela. Tona wa Madi le Ditlhabololo o akantse gore a tswe MR SPEAKER: Side remarks please Honourable a ye to collect, go phutha lekgetho la dithoto ka two Member. per cent. Honestly in all fairness to the Minister, the Tax Collector and the payers of VAT, it is not much. MR MOATLHODI: Ke leka go kaya ka fa ke Ke dirile dipalo kwa sekoleng Motlotlegi Motsamaisa dumalanyeng le Motlotlegi Rraetsho Tona, e bile ke Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Dipalo ke dingwe tsa dilo lemotsha Ntlo e gore VAT e botlhokwa jang gore re tse ke neng ke di itse thata le English Literature le e amogele. E ya to yield P700 million. Mo nakong e, History kwa sekoleng. Fa ke dira rough calculation ya ke sa tswa go tlhalosa dingwe tsa kgaolo ya me fela two per cent, go mpontsha gore this two per cent, shall tse di buseditsweng kwa morago, ka letlhoko la madi. yield P17 staggering million. Honestly, if P700 million can get credited into the consolidated fund, we can go somewhere. Ka jalo, ke HONOURABLE MEMBER: P700 million. kubakuba fa morago ga ga Motlotlegi Rraetsho Tona.

MR MOATLHODI: P700 million, sorry, mme kana Ke dumalana le ene e bile ke a mo kopela gore Ntlo e e ke e kwadile. Of course you will remember Honourable dumalane le ene. Re mo neele tetla a ye go tsaya babereki Kgathi, I nearly went through a rough patch this ba gagwe ba ba tlhwatlhwa kgolo, ba ba botlhaletlhale, afternoon. But as a Christian, I stood the ground. Fa ke ba ye go phutha madi a. Letlole la rona la Consolidated dira rough calculation e mpontsha gore P700 million Fund, should get ballooned. I support the Bill.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 21 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (MR MR MASIMOLOLE: Further point of procedure Mr MOLEBATSI): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo Speaker. I just want to find out if at all you are now tsa Palamente. Le nna ke ema Tona nokeng mo kopong going to cancel the list that you announced earlier on ya gagwe ya go oketsa lekgetho le la VAT ka two per and adhere to the Standing Orders. cent. Ga go na sepe se re ka se dirang kwa ntle ga go leka go bona gore re le lefatshe, re le goromente re MR SPEAKER: That one is common sense Honourable ka dira eng se se ka dirang gore se oketse madi. Se se Masimolole. Thank you. tla a re fokoletsang le go akanya go adima madi kwa MR GABORONE (SOUTH EAST NORTH): Ke a mafatsheng a sele, a e tla a reng gongwe kgabagare fa leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Kgang e le gore itsholelo ga e tokafale, gongwe a re imele. Ke e re e buile fa Tona a baya Palamente e kopo ya gagwe ema Tona nokeng ke re, a go dirwe jalo. Ka gore, e tla ya madi. Re buile ka yone, tota se se tona ke gore mo a re fa itsholelo gongwe e tokafala, le lone lekgetho nakong e re nne re gatelele se re se gateletseng, gore le le re okeleditse sengwenyana, ga nna botoka fela koketso e e tlile go imela batho, segolo thata ba ba thata mo le dilo tse dingwe tse re ntseng re di solofetse, sa berekeng. Ke koketso e e leng gore, fa e le gore re ra simolola go lebaleba gore ke dife projects tse di lefatshe le le ithatang, le le itlotlang, re tshwanetse ra seegetsweng kwa thoko, tse re ka simololang go di lemoga gore e re fa re ntse re ikuela mo go Tona re re leba. Ke tiro e ntle thata go leba gore re seka ra fokotsa o lebe ba e leng gore ga ba bereke, mme re itse gore ga babereki mo tirong, re seka ra fokoletsa babereki madi, re ka ke ra solofela gore mafatshe a mangwe a re thuse mme re lebe gore ke afe maano a re ka a dirang. Ke one rona re sa dire sepe. maano, boitseanape le botswerere jo bo tlhokegang mo go Tona wa tsa madi. Ke batla gore ke kope Tona gore a lebe kgang ya dijo. Ke bona e kete go na le golo gongwe fa go buiwang ka Ga ke na go bua ka boleele, ke emela fela gore ke re, dinawa, go bo go buiwa ka dinawa tsa Setswana. Ga ke ema nokeng mogopolo o ka pelo ya me yotlhe. Ke ke itse gore ke eng fa re sa bue ka dijo, segolo bogolo a leboga. tse Batswana ba di jang ka bontsi jwa tsone, e seng re MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, tlhopha re bo re ya go bua ka gore dinawa e nne tsa my wish is not to see a scramble for the floor. I recognise Setswana. Re saletswe ke gore re bo re re dinawa e a few faces and I would like to list them and tell them in nne bomaungo a kotame jaanong, tse di ka ntshiwang what order they will take the floor. This jumping up and mo VAT, fa re ka bua jalo. Ke kopa gore Tona, e re mo down as if we are in a classroom situation, to me does tsamaong ya nako, o nne o lebe kgang e gore o tsenye not seem right. Therefore, after Honourable Molebatsi I dijo tsotlhe tse e leng gore di ka tshedisa motho. have recognised Honourable Gaborone and Honourable Sengwe se ke kopang gore re se dire re le Palamente, re Tshireletso. They will speak in that order. le babusi, ke gore re nne re lebe ditsela tse dingwe tsa MR MODUBULE: On a point of procedure Mr go tlisa madi mo setshabeng kwa ntle ga go tsholetsa Speaker. Honourable Speaker, I do not understand lekgetho le la VAT. Re lebe ditsela tse di tshwanang le what path you would like to take. Whether you are toll gates. Tsela e, ke e e keteng e a re e santse e le disregarding the Standing Orders as you are coming kgakala re bo re setse re e kgaphela kgakala. Ke belaela up with your own formula, or whether we are going gore ba ba e dirisang ba dira millions ka letsatsi, mme to adhere to the Standing Orders. I think Honourable e bile madi a, a tlhokomela ditsela gore di nne sentle. E Speaker, with due respect, we have to adhere to the bile gongwe a a sala a bo a lebe kwa ditirong tse dingwe. Standing Orders. We have Standing Orders which Ke nngwe ya ditsela tse ke reng e re mo tsamaong ya clearly state what way the Speaker ought to be calling nako rra, o nne o di lebelele, gore ga go buiwe gore Members to debate. The Standing Orders are clear, you ditsela tsa rona ga di a siama. Gongwe ke sone se se have to catch the Speaker’s eye, and you do not have a tlhokafalang gore ditsela di siame, re tle re dire madi list of speakers. Therefore, I find it very unprocedural ka tsone, re bone madi a tsena a batho ba ba tswang ka and out of order that the Speaker would say to us so kwa ntle ba ba tsamayang mo lefatsheng le ka diteraka and so is going to come first and then second it is so tse di tona. Kwa mafatsheng a mangwe fa re ya teng, re and so. You have to catch the Speaker’s eye; that is itse fela gore fa o dirisa tsela ya bonnanne, o tshwanetse what the Standing Orders say. gore o duele madi a gore o dirisa tsela eo, o ya go feta fa bonnanne. Jaanong, ke nngwe ya ditsela tse nna ke MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, thank you very akanyang gore di tlhokomelwe, di tle di fokotse bokete much. I take note of your concerns. I will abide by the jo jwa gore nako le nako fa go nna bothata jwa madi, go rules, but I have already called Honourable Gaborone. bo go okediwa tax e e ntseng jaana. Ke a leboga.

22 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS Moeng ka madi a bone. Re fitlhetse makgetho a ntse a DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): Ke le teng, a re goletseng mo go one. Makgetho a ne a ntse a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. a le teng le bogologolo, gore ditlhabololo di tle di nne Rraetsho, nna ke emela gore ke tlatse Tona gore kopo e teng. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, o reye ba a e beileng pele ga Palamente e amogelwe. E amogelwe ba nkitayang tsebe ba, ba iketle ka gore gongwe ke bua ka mabaka a gore, re tshwanetse ra ikgakolola re le tse ba sa di rateng. Batlotlegi ba ba fano, ba ba romilweng ke batho gore goromente o tsaya madi kae. Selo sa ntlha, madi a re Selo se se tona ke gore, ga go na ope yo o tshwanetseng a batlang go ya go dira ditlhabololo kwa dikgaolong go gakgamalela lekgetho fa le buiwa. Fa goromente a re, tsa rona tse di farologanyeng. Goromente o kgona “mo pakeng ya gompieno metswedi ya me e mengwe ya go rekisa diteemane kana sengwe le sengwe se re ka madi e a kgala, lona Batswana jaanong ikanapeng dipata, bong re na naso re le setshaba. Re a itse gore re mo le tlise two per cent.” Re tshwanetse ra gakologelwa gore seemong se re leng mo go sone, ka ntlha ya gore bareki lekgetho la dijo le tse dingwe didirisiwa mo mafatsheng ba diteemane le bone itsholelo e ile tlase, ga ba kgone a re bapileng nao, ke 14 per cent. Ba bangwe ba bo gore ba di reke. ba tsamaye le kwa go 17 per cent. Rona re ntse re le mo go 10, e le gore seven per cent yo ba bangwe ba Goromente o kgona gore a dire madi ka go adima. Re mo duedisang, goromente o ntse a mo sireletsa, a mo ntse re le Ntlo e e fano, ga re batle Goromente yo o tla a duelelela Batswana. Jaanong ra re, a re tsweng fa go adimelang ruri, e bo e re ka moso bana ba bana ba rona 10 per cent re ye fa go 12 per cent. Twelve per cent yo, ba bo ba fitlhela e le gore ba tshelela mo go Goromente o ya go tlisa P700 million. P700 million yo bagaetsho, yo o mo dikolotong tse di sisimosang mmele. Jaaka re ditlhabololo tsa dikgaolo tsa rona ga re a di bona rotlhe. tle re utlwalele mo mafatsheng a mangwe. Goromente Nna ke dumela gore jaaka le nthomile kwa lephateng o bona madi ka go kopa, a fiwa ke mafatshe a mangwe. la thuto, kwa ke tlhokang P500 million gore ke ye go Rotlhe re le fano Batlotlegi, re a itse gore ga re sa tlhole duelela bana ba dikole teng, P700 million yo fa a tlile, re fiwa, mafatshe a a a tleng a fe ba bangwe madi, a ke tla a bona sengwe se ke tla a reng fa bana ba ntse bolela gore re fatlhogile, re dule mo setlhopheng sa ba ya dikoleng go tlhaela, ke bone sengwe. Fa a sa nna mafatshe a a bidiwang Least Developed Country teng, ga go na kwa ke yang go simolola go kopa teng (LDC). Goromente o bona madi ka go bona merokotso le nna gore bana ba rona rotlhe fa, le ba batho ba ba re ya dipeelo tse a ka bong a di beile fa thoko, jaaka madi romileng, re ba ise dikoleng. a re ntseng re a beile kwa ntle a a nang le merokotso. Madi ao le one a fokotsegile. Jaanong, re na le mathata Madi a, re tshwanetse ra dira jalo, ga re a tshwanela a gore madi re ya go a tsaya kwa kae. Fa ke tlang teng go gakgamalela gore two per cent o tsentswe. Ga re a ke gore Goromente gape o dira madi ka makgetho. tshwanela go gakgamalela gore puso ya re lekgetho le okediwe, ka gore ke yone tsamaiso e e leng gore le mo Makgetho a mefuta Rraetsho. Mo nakong e re leng mo Setswaneng sa rona go ntse go ntse jalo. Le mo pusong go yone, Botswana fa e kgethisa babereki, lekgetho le le tsa batho ka batho, tsa republics, goromente o filwe kwa godimo ke 25 per cent, ke gore, P25 mo Dipuleng molao wa gore a oketse madi ka go a batla, lekgetho e dingwe le dingwe di le lekgolo. Mafatshe a mangwe a le lengwe la metswedi eo. Jaanong ke ne ke re, Tona, ga re bapileng nao, lekgetho le goroga kwa go P35 mo go o a tswa gope mo tseleng. E bile gape, re tshwanetse ra P100 mongwe le mongwe, ke gore, 35 per cent. Rona gakologelwa gore, ba le ne le ka ba kokonela go feta, re re santse re le sego re tsamaya fa go 25 per cent, e le dirile gore go sirelediwe dijo tse re itseng gore bontsi lone lekgetho le le kwa godimo mo makgethong otlhe. jwa rona re tshela ka tsone. Tota bontsi jwa batho ba Ke gogela kwa go reng ke re, lekgetho ga se selo se se ba re tlhophileng, ke tsone tse ba beileng mo go tsone gakgamatsang. Ke selo se e leng gore puso nngwe le go fitlhola le go lalela. Tseo tsone, di sirelediwe mo nngwe e tshwanetse ya se leba e le mongwe mokgwa wa lekgethong gore ba seka ba kokonelwa go feta. Lekgetho go oketsa madi, go intsha mo mathateng mo dipakeng lone le tshwanetse gore le duelwe. tse di tshwanang le tse re leng mo go tsone. Jaanong ke ne ke re, P700 million yo, ga a ye go Jaanong, nna Rraetsho ke bua ke eme ka dinao jaana, tlisa dilo tsotlhe tse re di batlang. Nna gompieno ke batho ba Serowe South ba ba nthomileng, ga ke agetswe borogo kwa Mmamorontshe, jo bo senang le ise ke ye kwa go bone ka kgang e. Ke bua ke na le fa e le tsela e e yang kwa go jone. Ka ke itse gore fa maikarabelo a a tletseng a gore, ke romilwe ke batho go ntse jalo ga ke ka ke ka bona sekonotere se se yang ba ba itseng bomosola jwa boithaopo. Ke romilwe ke kwa tseleng eo, ke itse gore fa go ntse jaana, ke ye batho ba e leng gore rona ba bangwe fa re tlhalefa, go raya ba kgaolo ya me ke re, “bogolo a re kopeng re fitlhetse ba agile Sekgoma Memorial Hospital le sa lekgarapana ka gore ga re ka ke ra bona borogo ka

Hansard No 163 Part 4 23 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

madi a seyo.” P700 million yoo fa a bonala, ke ene a MS TSHIRELETSO: Ee, sukiri e a jewa, e tsenngwa ka lekanang lekgarapana, e seng sekonotere se ke neng mo motogong le mo sengweng le sengwe. Batho ke ba ke se solofetse. Re le baemedi ba batho, re tshwanetse ba ntsentse fa le fa Rraetsho, ke kopa tshireletso. ra tsaya maikarabelo a gore re tla a isa dikgang tse di monate, tsa meduduetso le dikgang tse di botlhoko, MR SPEAKER: Ask them to leave you alone. Le wena tse di tshwanang le tsone tse, gore Batswana ba ye go do not respond to their side remarks. gakololwa gore, bagaetsho, re na le boikarabelo. Fa re MS TSHIRELETSO: Thank you Sir. Gongwe ke re lefatshe le la rona, ga se ka nako ya kgoro fela, ke sone se e leng gore motho o ka dumalana ka gore, go lefatshe la rona le ka nako ya tlala. Jaanong, two per builwe fa gore go tla a lekwa gore go sekwasekwe cent yo, ga a a tshwanela go gakgamalelwa. Jaanong ditlhabololo dingwe. Mo dikgaolong tse di tshwanang Bakaulengwe, ke kopa gore re neele Tona two per cent le tsa rona jaana, fa 2 per cent yo a ka tsena, tsela ya yo a mmatlang. Ke a leboga Rraetsho. Dibete/Machaneng, bogolo jang ya Dibete/Mookane, ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL gongwe e tla a gopiwa. Ke dikgang fela tse re fetang GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Ke a leboga ka tsone gore go tla a re boloka. Rraetsho Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke Tona, mafoko a o buileng fano fa, ke mafoko a e leng ema go dumalana le kgang e ya ga Tona e a e beilweng gore re le Mapalamente, re sa le re a dumalana fa o ka botswerere. O fetile ka yone ka nako e a neng a tlisa santse o a baya kwa. Gompieno ke gore, re go reye re kopo ya madi otlhe a lefatshe la Botswana ka bophara. re 2 per cent e tsene e le kopo e e leng ka fa tsamaisong Kgang e e tona ka gore e re lemotsha botlhokwa mo ka fa molaong. Ga se mo o ka buang ka boleele o ipaya go rona re le baemedi ba batho. Kgang e tona ke gore yo o sa itseng. Tota e baakantswe sentle. Fa ke ratang re ye go tlhalosetsa batho seemo sa gore ke eng fa re go bua teng ke gore, o ne o bua gore kana bangwe ba fitlhile fa re fitlhileng teng gore boemong jwa 10 per ne ba bua gore 2 per cent o ya go kokonela. Gongwe le cent, e nne 12 per cent. Ka gore fa re ka seke ra e mo Palamenteng re le Mapalamente, gongwe fa re re tsibogela gongwe ya nna ya ga Tona kana ya bangwe go thusa ka 2 per cent, re bo re bua gore mme bogolo fela, e tla a bo e le mathata a a seng kana ka sepe. a 2 per cent yo a seka a ya kwa lekgethong la VAT. A Re tshwanetse ra bolelela batho fela jaaka Mmaetsho segolo bogolo go fokotswe mo go rona le badirela puso Venson-Moitoi a ne a bua le ba ba buileng pele ga ba bangwe ba maemo a a kwa godimo. Gongwe le wena me gore, dijo tse di jewang letsatsi le letsatsi tse di o ne o ka nna le se o ka se buang. Mo nakong e o neng o tshwanang le mabele, bopi jwa borotho le disukiri, ga bua ka Budget Speech, ga ke ise ke utlwe ope mongwe di a tsenngwa 12 per cent. Golo foo fa re ka bolelela wa baemedi ba Palamente, a bua gore sekasekang ka fa batho sentle, ba tla a tlhaloganya. Kgang e tona go rona gore, gongwe o ntshe 50 per cent kana 20 per ke gore, batho ba ka ngongorega fa e le gore ga ba cent. Re tla a tla re mmona fa re tsweletse. Gongwe e tlhalosediwe sentle gore dilo tse di okeditsweng, ke tse ka bo e le gone ke reng nnyaa, re ka go akantsha. Fa re neng re gola fela re sa di itse jaaka bomayonnaise le go sena se re ka se buang, a re letleleleng Tona gore go tomato sauce. Rice e ne e jewa ka Christmas fela, ga na le gore gongwe a ka bo a fokoditse madi a badirela se dilo tse e leng gore tota fa re sena natso kwa gae, puso ba maemo, Mapalamente le ba parastatals ba re na le mathata. Ke dilo fela tsa luxury. Letsatsi le ba amogelang madi a a rileng, go botoka gore bogolo letsatsi go jewa bogobe jwa mabele le phaleche. Go na a nne o re kgome kgome foo fa go rekwa dikoloi tsa le ba ba di fetolang malatsi otlhe mo Botswana. Fa e manobonobo le dijo tsone tse tsa luxury. Nna ke bona le gore go ntse jalo, ke gone mo e leng gore re bona go gore ke go tlatse. Ke dumalane le wena gore kwa ntle tlhokafala gore madi a a oketswe gore go ye go dirwa ga go senya sebaka se seleele, ke rotloetsa gore 2 per ditiro dingwe tsa ditlhabololo. cent yo a tsene.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Cooking oil yone? MR KHWAE (KGALAGADI NORTH): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Fa MS TSHIRELETSO: Nnyaa, go na le tse di setseng other Honourable Members ba tlelwa ke boitumelo, tse e leng gore ke ne ke tshwanetse gore... nna ke tlelwa ke kutlobotlhoko le matlhotlhapelo mo kgaolong ya me e e gateletsweng ke lehuma. Ga e MR SPEAKER: Side remarks, please Honourable na ditsela, dibanka le ditlamelo. Kutlobotlhoko e ya Matlhabaphiri. kgatelelo, e fetela kwa go bone.

MS TSHIRELETSO: O ntsena ganong ka gore... Sa ntlha fela, Botswana Unified Revenue Services HONOURABLE MEMBER: Wa re o ja sukiri. (BURS) e ya go tlisa mathata mo go bone. Gore fela ba ise madi a BURS, ba tsamaya 490 kilometres go

24 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution tswa kwa Ukhwi go ya kwa Jwaneng. O bone fela gore MR MODUBULE: Indeed se ke se buang effectively motho o tla a bo a batla madi mme e bile ke ene yo o is a 12 per cent VAT, it is not going to be a 2 per cent tsamayang sekgele se se kana. Kana ga ke reye return VAT. trip, single trip ya 490 kilometres. BURS e palelwa ke go bula officemo Sub-District ya Hukuntsi. Jaanong, fa MR SPEAKER: Side remarks. Give a Member the go okediwa madi mme e palelwa ke go tlisa ditlamelo opportunity to debate freely. kwa re di tlhokang teng, go tewa matlhotlhapelo le MR MODUBULE: Thank you Honourable Speaker. kutlobotlhoko mo go nna. Ke tshwenngwa ke seemo Se se salang ke gore, is 10 per cent plus 2 per cent and sa gore gape fa ba tsamaya jaana ba isa madi a, ba that is 12 per cent. Ke yone e re buang ka yone gore tsamaya mo diphatseng tse e leng gore ke tsa bone. VAT e ya go nna 12 per cent. Re seka ra bua e kete ra BURS ga e ba thuse even ka insurance le handling fee re 2 per cent ga se sepe fela o kare re bua fela gore ya madi ao a bone. Ga re tshwane le ba e leng gore ba jaanong re tsenya 2 thebe kana P2.00. tswa fa Broadhurst ba duela fa Gaborone West, kana ba tswa fa Gaborone North ba ya Gaborone South. Ke HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. sone seemo se se ntshwenyang. MR MODUBULE: Nnyaa, ga ke batle elucidation ya Gatwe puso e ka dira jang madi kwa ntleng ga VAT. Re ga ope. ne re bua ka kgang ya nominated councillors gore a ga HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. se nako ya gore go sekasekiwe. Ke buile gore kgaolo ya me, Sub District is 600 kilometres away from the MR MODUBULE: Nnyaa, ka re intshwarele. Ga ke headquarters. Fa o dira jalo, o tlisa ditshenyegelo. tlhokane le elucidation ya gago. Jaanong fa o ka neela Hukuntsi gore a ikemele... MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member is not yielding MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Minister. Tshireletso, when you were holding the floor, you ask for the Speaker’s protection and you are now becoming MR MODUBULE: I am not yielding. a victim yourself. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke ne ke go kopa. MR KHWAE: Honourable Tshireletso ke ngwana MR MODUBULE: Ke a go utlwa gore o a kopa. Ke a wa Palamente, o tshwanetse o nne o mo tlogela fela, gana. Ga kere kopo e na le dintlha tse pedi, ke tumelo o santse a gola. kana go gana. Re tshwanetse ra tsaya boikarabelo jwa go tsaya Mma ke tswelele Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Hukuntsi Sub-District re e tlhatsose go nna district ka Se ke se buang ke gore, ga ke dumalane le Tona ka koketso boyone. Ya tlogela gore expenses ya travelling ya 600 ya gagwe e a e kopang gore re tswe mo lekgethong la 10 kilometres, e e leng gore e tla mo go goromente, re bo per cent re ye kwa go 12 per cent. Se ke batlang gore ke re tsaya gore ga go na se re ka se dirang kwa ntleng ga se gatelele Tona ke gore, kana fa re bua ka 12 per cent VAT. Ke dilo dingwe tse ke supang gore e re ntswa re ya VAT, re bo re leka gore re itshwantshanye le mafatshe ka seke mo seemong se re leng mo go sone, ra ganana a mangwe re ntse re re, “nnyaa, ba bangwe ke bo14 per le se Tona a se buang. A a tseye ka tlhwaafalo dikgang cent, ba bangwe ke bo 16 per cent, ba bangwe ke eng.” tse dingwe tsa dikgaolo tse e leng gore tsone di tsaya Re batla go itshwantshanya le batho ba re sa itseng gore bokete go mo tlisetsa madi a. Ke a leboga. ke eng fa ba ne ba re 14 per cent sa ntlha, kana 16 per MR MODUBULE (LOBATSE): Mma ke go leboge cent, ke eng rona re ne re re 10 per cent. Ke gore sa ntlha Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mma ke o re bolelele gore, ke eng fa re ne re simolola kwa go 10 simolole fela ka go supa gore ga ke dumalane gotlhelele per cent re sa simolole kwa go 14 per cent yo ba bangwe le Tona gore a bo a re o oketsa lekgetho la Value Added ba neng ba simolola ka ene. Ke eng re sa re re ye kwa go Tax (VAT) ka 2 per cent. Ga ke na gope fa ke amanang 16 per cent kwa go ba bangwe ba leng kwa go ene, re re le koketso eo gotlhelele. Le ka nako ya fa a baya re ya kwa go 12 per cent. puo ya gagwe, ke supile gore ga ke mo eme nokeng Se ke batlang gore ke se tlhalose Tona ke gore, nna fa gotlhelele. Ke dumela gore ga go tlhokafale gore Tona ke lebeletse botshelo jwa Batswana, o tla a fitlhela e a bo a oketsa lekgetho le ka 2 per cent. Fa batho ba bua le gore Tona, re na le letlhoko la ditiro mo Botswana. ka 2 per cent, ba lebala gore ba tshwanetse go bua ka Batho ba ba sa berekeng fa o sekaseka percentages tsa 12 per cent, e seng 2 per cent. rona, di kwa godimo fela thata. Mo e leng gore fa o re HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...Inaudible... ba ya go duela 12 per cent, o akanya motho a sa bereke

Hansard No 163 Part 4 25 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

gore jaanong tota o ya go tsaya kae madi one a a go la ba ama gotlhelele. Ka gore ke bone ba re ka bong duela lekgetho le. Kana lekgetho le la VAT... re ba sireletsa. Ga go lebege re na le thulaganyo epe ya go sireletsa batho ka gore lekgetho la VAT le ama HONOURABLE MEMBER: O tla a bo a reka eng? mongwe le mongwe. Ke sone se nna se ntshwenyang MR MODUBULE: Hei! Kana ke gore go nna Tona, bahumanegi ba lefatshe le ba bantsi fela thata mo moDomkrag, dinako tse dingwe ke gore o lebala gore e leng gore e bile le lenaneo le la Ipelegeng, ga ke bone go na le bahumanegi. Utlwa motho a re, ‘o ya go gore le tla a ba kgona, e bile le setse le ba kgaola. reka eng’. Ke gore o lebala gore lekgetho la VAT le Ke sengwe sa dilo tse e leng gore nna ke belaela gore, tsena gongwe le gongwe, kwa ntle ga dilo fela tse di fa re ntse re oketsa makgetho jaana, re imetsa Batswana badilweng ke Tona fa. Otherwise, sengwe le sengwe, a botshelo. Kwa bofelong, Batswana ruri ba tla a bo ba motseto o a kgetha, kana eng o a kgetha, le setopo se a ipone phoso go tlhopha puso e e tshwanang le ya lona kgetha. Ke gore ene o ikakanyeditse fela gore ke gore gore a ruri ba ne ba itirela sentle. mongwe le mongwe o na le sengwe le sengwe. HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...Inaudible... Se ke batlang gore ke se bue ke gore, re na le bahumanegi ba le bantsi thata mo lefatsheng le, mo e leng gore ke MR SPEAKER: Honourable Rakhudu, please. gore fa o bua ka lekgetho, o bua ka 2 per cent, o bua ka motho a sa bereke, ke gore o ipotsa gore o raya gore o MR MODUBULE: Ga ke itse gore Motlotlegi ya go tsaya kae madi fa a ne a palelwa ke 10 per cent. Rakhudu ene o sha ntshu a ogolang. Nnyaa, ga go na le Gompieno re na le batho ba bantsi ba e leng gore ga ba fa e le mathata. Batho ba tsaya sebaka go tlhaloganya bereke Rraetsho, e bile le ba ntshitse mo thulaganyong... dilo tse dingwe, mme ga re kitla re e swa lentswe gore batho ba re tlhaloganye. Re tla a tswelela re bua mme HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke kopa tlhaloso Batswana ba tla a re tlhaloganya. Ba re tlhaloganya motlotlegi. thata mo e leng gore e bile ba bangwe le setse le ba koba ka gore ba a re tlhaloganya gore ra reng. Mme se MR MODUBULE: Nnyaa, iketle pele ka ditlhaloso. re se buang ga se ka ke sa re ema kwa pele. Mma ke tswelele ka puo ya me le tla a tla le tsena ka ditlhaloso tsa lona, ke tla a le neela sebaka. Nako e Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, mma ke ntsi, ga go na le fa e le guillotine, ke tla a bua fela. Fa tswelele ke supe gore, kana se Tona a se buang mo le batla ditlhaloso, mmang ke tsweleleng pele, e tla a re pampiring ya gagwe, o supa gore lekgetho la rona e fa ke emang teng, o utlwa o kare ke a riana ke ya kwa ntse e le lone le le kwa tlase in the region. Ke mangwe tlase, o bo o kopa tlhaloso. a mabaka a a tsholetsang ka one.

Gompieno se ke batlang go se bua ke gore, a re HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa. gakologelweng gore re na le batho ba bantsi ba ba sa MR MODUBULE: Nnyaa a rialo a re, “It is worth direng gope. Gompieno re dirile lenaneo, go ne gotwe noting that our rate has been lowest in the region Namola Leuba. Mothusa Tautona o ne a re go tlhabisa therefore, an increase is necessary”. ditlhong gore gotwe Namola Leuba, gotwe Ipelegeng. Mma re tswelele gore ke Ipelegeng. O ipotsa gore fa HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa. motho a sena sepe se a se inayang, ba bangwe e bile le ba ntshitse mo thulaganyong ya batlhoki, le re ba ye go MR SPEAKER: Order Members! please. tsena kwa Ipelegeng. O ipelega jang fa o santse o re o a MR MODUBULE: Nnyaa o tla a tla a itlhalosetsa. Ke ipelega o amogela P360.00 o duela 10 per cent ya VAT, gore go omana le boMotloltegi Skelemani ba e leng gotwe jaanong e ka nna ya tsholediwa e nna 12 per cent. gore ba omana go satwe go omanwe. Ke one mathata Ke gore mo P360.00, yo 12 per cent o setse a tsewa ke a mangwe a e leng gore ke tshwaragane le bothata le lona. Go raya gore motho yo wa Modimo yo ke lefela one. Ene ke motho yo o omanang fela tsala ya me le fa fela la mafela. go sa tlhokafaleng dikomano teng. Ke one mathata mangwe a e leng gore nna ke fitlhela go Mma re tswelele Rraetsho, ke supe gore ke solofela le bokete. A ga go na tsela epe e re ka akanyang go dira gore go na le makgetho a a ka okediwang. Re na le makgetho ape fela a a sa kakeng a ama bahumanegi. batho ba e leng gore ba ja lefatshe le ba mines fa le ne Kana lekgetho le la VAT le ama mongwe le mongwe. le ka akanya go oketsa makgetho a meepo. O ka tswa o le mohumi wa dinaledi ka gore e bile ga go na billionaires le millionaires. Ga re ba itse, re itse Gongwe fa re ne re akanya go oketsa koo, ra tlogela bahumanegi fela. Mme ka bahumanegi re itse palo ya bahumanegi ba e leng gore ga ba na sepe se ba se bone, bogolo ke eng re sa dire gore lekgetho le le seka inaang. Ke a itse gore go ntse go na le dipolelo tse di

26 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution gakgamatsang tsa gore go jewa koo, jaanong ga ke batle Go pala jaana ka gore goromente ga a na maikaelelo. go umaka tseo thata. Se ke batlang go se bua ke gore, Ke re ke gakolole gore Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa ke na le tsholofelo ya gore go na le kwa re ka oketsang Palamente, nna ke na le mathata a gore, fa re ka seka makgetho teng, go na le gore re bo re itebagantse le ra dira thulaganyo e, makgetho a re ntseng re bua ka lekgetho le e leng gore le ya go ama le ba ba senang one a, re ntse re a oketsa ka fa re a oketsang ka teng, itsholelo epe. Bogolo jang fa re bua jaana, re itse ga a na go re solegela molemo thata. Ka gore babereki Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente gore, le fa e le gompieno ga ba a sireletsega mo ditirong tsa bone. Ka dikoketso tsa babereki ga di a ka tsa nna teng ka mabaka gore re na le batho ba e leng gore ke army fela e e kwa one a gore itsholelo e ile kwa tlase. Jaanong ke botsa ntle, e e leng gore e emetse gore e tshosetse ba ba mo potso gore, naare itsholelo e, fa e ya kwa tlase, a e ela ditirong. Jaanong fa go ne go na le fund e e ntseng jalo, goromente fela? A Batswana bone itsholelo ya bone ga e ne e ka re thusa. e ye kwa tlase? Mo e leng gore ke bone ba e leng gore fa puso e tshona fela, e ya kwa go bone. Gore “nnyaa, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke tshaba gore lona Batswana jaanong tsenyang letsogo mo dipateng ke seka ka tloga ka nna kgakala thata le Bill. Fa o tsa lona ka gore jaanong re tshonne kwa godimo, ke lona lebelela Page 5 ya polelo ya ga Tona, o ne a bua ka gore ba e leng gore le ka tshegetsa kgang e.” Nnyaa, re buile goromente o lekile thata gore a seka a kgaola babereki gore yang kwa De Beers, le ba reye ba oketse lekgetho. mo ditirong. Ga ke itse; gongwe goromente o lekile jalo, Tlogelang Batswana ba ba senang le fa e le itsholelo epe mme re a itse gore go na le circulars tse di tsamayang di e ba e dirang. tshosetsa babereki. Dingwe tsa tsone di ne di bua gore, batho ba e leng gore ba over 50, ba tshwanetse gore Se sengwe le ka dira makgetho gape gore le ye go tsaya jaanong ba iteleke. Ke sengwe sa dilo tse e leng gore... ba e leng gore ba ne ba akola thata mo De Beers, le ba reye ba buse madi ao, gongwe a kgone gore a oketse HONOURABLE MEMBER: Aah! itsholelo. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke MR MODUBULE: Ee, gongwe le tla a bua gore e ne a itse gore go na le threshold e e beilweng gore ba ba e reng ka le e tshotse. Mongwe wa Matona fela a tle amogelang madi a a rileng, gongwe ba seka ba kgetha. a bolele gore e ne e reng tota directive eo. Fela se ke Ke re gongwe le yone eo re e sekaseke gore re e beile ka se buang ke gore, le fa goromente a ka bo a lekile fa kae, Batswana ba le bantsi, a re ka seke re bone gore jalo, bontsi jwa dikompone ga ba a ka ba leka jaaka re ka dira eng ka yone, go na le gore e ye go kgethisa goromente a leka, gore ba seka ba kgaola batho. Batho motho yo e leng gore tota gotlhelele ga a bereke. ba kgaotswe mo ditirong. Jaanong potso e nna gone gore, Gongwe re e fokotse, fa e le sengwe, re e ise kwa tlase, fa jaaka batho ba kgaotswe mo ditirong jaana, mme re batho ba simolole go kgetha le fa e le lekgetho le le kwa ba okeletsa lekgetho la VAT, ba ya go le kgona jang? tlasenyana. Ka bone ba a dira, at least ba na le sengwe Kana ke one mathata a ke nang nao gore ke bo gotwe ke se se tsenang mo go bone, go na le gore re dire lekgetho dumalane le gore nnyaa, a VAT e okediwe fela ka gore le e leng gore jaanong le ya go akaretsa mongwe le re tla a bona lemmenyana lengwe mo go one. Nna ke mongwe, le ba e leng gore tota ga ba bone le fa e le sepe na le mathata Tona ka gore, ke lemoga sentle gore dijo mo itsholelong ya bone, kana ga ba na any income. Ke tse di kwadilweng fa, ga se tsone fela tse e leng gore na le tumelo ya gore dilo tse di ka dirwa, Tona. totatota di ka bo di ka sireletsa Motswana gore a bo a re, Kana Tona, e rile mo nakong e e fetileng, re kile ra bua “nnyaa, jaanong kana go na le dingwenyana tse e leng ka gore ke a bona gore madi a e leng gore o a bua gore gore ke tla a bo ke ka boela mo go tsone.” Ke mathata a a tla a tsena, ga se madi a sepe a a kalokalo. Mme fela ke fitlhelang a mpaledisa gore ke eme Tona nokeng mo se se leng boammaaruri ke gore, e tla a bo e le gore re go reng ke re, nnyaa, a oketse lekgetho le la VAT. kgethisa batho ba e leng gore ga ba na itsholelo epe. Batho ba kgaotswe mo ditirong ga ba bereke, Mo ke sa tseyeng gore a ke sengwe se re tshwanetseng dikompone dingwe go ne go tulwe goromente o tla a di gore re se dire. thusa, jaaka dikompone tse e leng gore di ne di roka. Go na le thulaganyo nngwe e e leng gore re na le batho Batho bao go a utlwala gore ga ba ise ba ye kwa go ba le bantsi jaaka ke bua Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo goromente gore a ba thuse. Ka gore, goromente o ne a tsa Palamente, ba e leng gore ga ba dire gope fela. re ba ye go duela babereki ka lenaneo la Namola Leuba Goromente wa ga Domkrag o paletswe ka dinako tse kana la Ipelegeng. Jaanong ke mang yo o ka yang go a busitseng ka tsone gore a ba direle ditiro. Kana a dire tsenelela tiro e e leng gore o bereka letsatsi lotlhe, o gore ditiro di nne teng mo lefatsheng la Botswana. Gone bereka tiro e e bokete, e a neng a duelwa madi a a mo ke buile mo nakong e e fetileng ka gore, a re nneng botoka, goromente ene a re nnyaa... le unemployment benefit fund. Golo mo go padile. HONOURABLE MEMBER: (Inaudible)

Hansard No 163 Part 4 27 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

MR MODUBULE: Ka re dikompone Rra tse di MR SPEAKER: Indeed you are right, Honourable rokang; textile industries, le ne le re fa ba busetsa Member, but let me remind you of Standing Order batho bao mo tirong, ba bo ba ya go ba duela ka rate No. 47(d) which says, “while a Member is speaking, ya Ipelegeng. Jaanong ga go a kgonega. Ke dingwe tsa all other Members shall be silent and shall not make dilo tse e leng gore di paledisitse dikompone tseo gore unseemingly interruptions.” I am seeing this happening di busetse batho. Le gompieno jaaka re bua jaana... and I do not like to treat Parliament like a classroom situation, whereby I am always calling upon people. I MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MS thought Honourable Members will exercise restraint. If MAKGATO-MALESU): Clarification. they did and they did it to the limit without destructing MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members. The anybody, then that is understood. But some are doing it Honourable Member for Mahalapye East, you cannot sit at will, without regard to the Chair’s concern. like that; you must face the Speaker. But when you are ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH (MR bending like that, I can see you. Honourable Members, MATLHABAPHIRI): Further point of order, Mr you are violating the rules. Sorry, HonourableMakgato- Speaker. Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Malesu. Palamente, mma ke go lebogele tsetla e o neng o e supetsa MS MAKGATO-MALESU: I just wanted to clarify Bakaulengwe. Ke re o supegetse gape Bakaulengwe a point that, the money with regards to textiles, is tsetla ya 47(c) e e buang gore, e re fa Bakaulengwe actually a subsidy and subsidy means subsidy. We are ba le gone mo, ba seka ba bala dikoranta; jaaka ene not saying they should be paid that amount. But rather Mokaulengwe yo o neng a bua fa, gore o bua jaana a be subsidised to that amount. And where that money is sutisa koranta a e beela fa thoko. Ke a leboga. coming from really, it is a budgetary item moving from MR SPEAKER: Your observation is noted, I think this account to another account. I just thought I should the Honourable Member has also noted your concern. clarify that. Thank you.

MR MODUBULE: Ke a leboga Tona ka tlhaloso ya MR MODUBULE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa gago. Se se gakgamatsang ke gone gore, Tona ke eng Palamente, ke ne ke santse ke bua ka gore, ditlamelo batho ba ba sa tle jaanong gore madi ao ba a tseye? Ka ka bontsi di ya go oketsega ka madi kana go ya go gore bone tlhaloganyo ke gore, kana jaanong la re ba okediwa madi a ditlamelo. Metsi, metlakase di ya go ye go duela batho ka rate ya Namola Leuba, and as a ya kwa godimo, boBotswana Housing Corporation ba result, they are not coming forward. So, ke one mathata oketsa ditlhwatlhwa. Ke gore o ipotsa gore, Batswana a re nang nao gompieno gore firms tsone tse re buang ba ya go tshela botshelo jo go tweng mang ba sa ka tsone, ga di ise di tle go tsaya madi ao, le lona le a okelediwa madi. Seemo se se a ntlhobaetsa Motsamaisa itse. As a result, bana ba batho ba ntse ba mo seterateng. Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ruri re le Palamente fa, ra Jaanong fa re oketsa VAT, ke gore re imetsa batho ba re re direla eng Batswana se e leng gore re ka re ka morwalo gore ba ya go dira jang go kgona botshelo. moso, ba ka re bona o kare re puso e e ba akanyetsang. Ditlhwatlhwa tsone di a oketsega. Re a itse gore ka Nna ke bona o kare puso malatsi a, e tshonne mo e leng April jaana Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, gore jaanong e tlhokela madi mo bathong. motlakase o ya go ya kwa godimo; ditlamelo ka bontsi di ya kwa godimo. Jaanong potso ke gore, fa ditlamelo Go na le go akanya ditsela tse puso e ka dirang madi di ya kwa godimo jaaka di tlile go ya kwa godimo, ka ka tsone, e akanya fela gore e ye go tsaya fela mo fa goromente le ene a oketsa VAT, tota batho ba ya go Batswaneng. Ke gore ga go na megopolo epe ya go dira kgona jang? madi, fa e se gone gore re oketse lekgetho fale, re oketse fale; it becomes a tax regime. Nna ke na le mathata, fa e Re a utlwa gore le mo dithulaganyong tsa metsi, gatwe le gore ke yone tsamaiso e e leng gore Batswana go ya go VAT e ya go tsena koo. Ga ke itse gore a Tona wa Metsi jewa fela mo go bone. Ga go na sepe fela se e leng gore o ka tlhalosa gore a ke boammaaruri, VAT e ya go tsena se ka akanngwa sa go dira madi go thusa Batswana. Ke le kwa metsing. Gore batho jaanong ba ya go dira jang bone ba tshwanetseng gore ba tsenye madi fela, nnyaa, fa seemo se nna ka tsela e e ntseng jaana. ke bona mathata a matona, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa MR MASIMOLOLE: Point of procedure. Thank you Palamente. Kana se re tshwanetseng ra se itse ke gore, very much Mr Speaker and thank you, Honourable jaaka Batswana ba ntse ba tsenya madi mo letloleng la Member. Kana Rra re reeditse ka fa, mme go na le puso jaana, re na le motho yo go tweng Tautona, yo o sa khokhoro ka fa, ga ke itse gore ke eng o sa e kgalemele, rekeng le fa e le pencil, teaspoon, le fa e le sepe. Mme Mr Speaker. madi a Batswana ba ntseng ba ntsha makgetho, a rekela ene. Go na le mothusi wa gagwe, go na le Matona ba e

28 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution leng gore re ba agetse matlo a a manobonobo, Rraetsho. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Modubule, I have asked A tsweletse, ba bangwe go nna diphefo fela mo teng, you to proceed observing the provisions because you motho ga a na le fa e le ngwana kana katse. Mme fa o re are the one who previously ruled us to observation of o leba ntlo ya teng, thakaa! Ke ntlo e e leng gore le wena the Standing Orders. I wish you to proceed along those o ka ba wa sisimoga gore naare golo fa go nna motho. lines please. Se ke se buang ke gore... MR MODUBULE: Honourable Speaker, I am saying MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND there is nothing improper that I have said about His SECURITY (MR D. R. SERETSE): Ke kopa Excellency but I will proceed. Thank you. Mma ke tlhaloso Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke tswelele ka gore ke ne ke dirisa Setswana. Ke ne ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke re bagaetsho se ke batlang go se bua ke gore, go na ne ke re gongwe e re Motlotlegi a ntse a di balolola le dilo tse re ka di fokotsang ra tlogela go ya go ama a bua boTautona, Mothusa Tautona le Matona, a seka Batswana ba ba senang itsholelo ka tsone. Dingwe tsa a lebala Mapalamente gore le ene e le mongwe wa tsone ke gore, a re seka ra aga palaces tsa Matona, Mapalamente o nna mo ntlong, mme gongwe le yone e ra dira sengwe le sengwe fela ra se direla Tautona. A lehalahala kwa e leng teng. letsatsi leno o batla se kana sele, a le rona re akanye gore ke dife tse di ka fokodiwang mo go rona, tse di ka MR MODUBULE: O bolelela ruri. O ntse o atolosa thusang Batswana gore ba seka ba imelwa ke makgetho se ke se buang gore, go na le matlo a matona. Fa e le a gompieno re le Palamente e e fano re batlang gore re Tautona ene Batswana ba wetse, sengwe le sengwe se di tsenye mo Batswaneng. Ka gotwe ke seka ka bua ka o ka se akanyang. Jaanong se ke se buang ke gore, ene tsone gore ke dife le fa di kwadilwe, gotwe fa o bua yo ke gore fa a ka tla a bua fa o ka bo wa tsaya gore jalo jaanong ke gore o tsuolola ba bangwe, ke tla seke hei! Banna, ke gore monna yo e leng gore ga a na le fa ke di bue Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. e le sepe se a se senyang sa Batswana, mme e le ene yo e leng gore Batswana ba senyegelwa mo go ene. Go Se ke batlang gore ke se tlhalose ke gore, nnyaa tswa foo go bo go tsena Mothusi wa gagwe… bagaetsho, a gone re akanye gore fa re bua ka Batswana re re ba kgethe jaana, re raya bangwe ba rona go sena MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS le fa e le sepe se re yang go se utlwa mo lekgethong DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): On leo. E le gore gotlhelele ga re itse gore a plate, basin a point of order Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, one of the e a rekwa jaanong ga re tle go babalelwa ke sepe. Ke Standing Orders, I cannot recall which one suggests or sone fela se ke batlang gore ke se bue. Ga ke leke go dictates that we should not impute improper motive on tsuolola ope ka tsela epe. Ke leka fela gore ke bue gore any one, particularly the Head of State. The conditions bagaetsho, a re neng re akanyeng… of service of the Head of State approved by this Honourable House entitle him to everything that he HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… gets from the State approved by us. Jaanong ga re ka ke ra neela motho dilo ra bo re tla re mo kgoba ka MR MODUBULE: Tota le ntse jang, le rata go tsone. The Honourable Member is out of order Sir. lotlhanya mo go maswe.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Modubule, the Standing MR SPEAKER: Side remarks please. Order the Honourable Minister is referring to I think MR MODUBULE: Ee, Rraetsho. Se ke batlang go se is Standing Order 46 (5) ‘imputing improper motives’ bua fela ke gore, a re re fa re akanyetsa ba bangwe, because such characters like Head of State, if you do re akanyetseng le Batswana ba ba re beileng fano. A have anything to say against them the Standing Order e seka ya re fa re tshona fela, re bo re akanya gore requires you to move a motion against that. re ka ya go tsaya mo go bone. A re akanyeng gore ke HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Murmurs)… ditsela dife tse dingwe tse re ka di tsayang, tse gongwe di ka se keng di babalele Batswana ba re ba emetseng MR SPEAKER: Honourable Swartz, please. So, I mo Ntlong e e fano. Ke re Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa would like you to observe that provision of the Standing Palamente, ke tshaba gore kgantele e bo e le gore re a Orders. Please proceed. gotlhagotlhana motho wa batho. Ga ke na keletso eo ya go gotlhagotlhana le botsamaisi jwa Palamente. MR MODUBULE: Honourable Speaker, with due respect and the Honourable Member, I do not Ke supe gore dilo tse dingwe Rraetsho, di tla a felela understand what I have imputed being improper to His di re tsenya matlho a batho. Ba ipotsa gore a re a ba Excellency or anybody for that matter. I am merely akanyetsa kana re a ikakanyetsa. Ke sone fela se ke stating our conditions of service… neng ke batla gore ke se gatelele, gore fa re ntse re

Hansard No 163 Part 4 29 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

oketsa sengwe le sengwe jaana, April fa a tsena jaana, Motswana fela yo o kwa seterateng gatwe le ene ke re a itse dilo tsotlhe di ya go tsholetsega. Ditlhwatlhwa goromente. O tle o reetse nako e nngwe Tautona a bua tsotlhe fela di ya go ya kwa godimo mme le rona ka fa fela kwa United Nations a re, “My Government and I’: re oketsa VAT. goromente wa me le nna, “on my behalf and on behalf of my Government, the people of Botswana’… A ko o Fa re oketsa VAT, imports tse di ntseng di tla mono, utlwe fela. ‘My own behalf, behalf of the Government kana dilwana tse di ntseng di tla mo lefatsheng la rona of the people of Botswana…’ di ya go simolola go tura. Go tura gone moo go raya gore jaanong ga re tle go tswelela ka go tsaya dilwana MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, please observe kwa mafatsheng a sele jaaka re ntse re di tsaya. Go raya Standing Order 46 (1). gore go ya go fokotsega gore re di tseye jalo, jaanong gone moo le gone go ya go babalela ba e leng gore ba MR MODUBULE: Ke a fetsa Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo mo dikgwebong. tsa Palamente, ke gore ke ne ke re ke ba gakolole fela gore Motswana fela kwa seterateng ga se goromente. Itsholelo ya rona e ka felela e babalelwa ka gore ga re Gatwe there are three arms tse di dirang goromente; kgone go reka kwa ntle jaaka re ntse re reka go sena tax ke Executive… e e kalo kalo. Jaanong fa re e oketsa, go raya gore le ba ba ntseng ba tsaya dilwana kwa ntle ba itshetsa ka tsone MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, Order! Order! mono, lekgetho la bone le ya go ya kwa godimo. Go bo Surely, that area that you are delving into clearly does go raya gore bareki ba bone ga ba ye go reka jaaka ba not work in compliance with Standing Order 46 (1). It ntse ba reka, bogolo jang ka itsholelo e ile kwa tlase. Ba therefore becomes really irrelevant to the matter before ya go simolola go wela kwa tlase mo dikgwebong tsa us. I request you Honourable Member to come to the bone. Gone moo go raya go babalelwa mo itsholelong matter. If you are about to conclude, please conclude ya rona. Jaanong ke re, le fa re ka bo re re re dira sengwe accordingly. Thank you. se se botoka mme ga re a akanyetsa ba e leng gore tota MR MODUBULE: Ke ne ke rile ke a fetsa Motsamaisa import and export go ya go nna bothata. Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Se ke neng ke se bua fela Ke a itse gore jaaka re ntse re tsweletse, go ntse go le ke gore, ke ne ke re ke gakolole Bakaulengwe gore botokanyana motho a akanya gore fa o tsaya dilo kwa e seka ya re ba bua, ba bo ba bua e kete mongwe le Aferika Borwa o di tlisa ka kwano, ka gore lekgetho mongwe ke goromente. Ke ne ke gakolola moo fela la bone le kwa godimo la rona le kwa tlase go nna gore ba itse gore Batswana ke Batswana ba tlhopha botokanyana. Jaanong, gompieno seemo seo se ya go goromente gore a nne teng. Go seka ga nna gotwe fokotsega. Go raya gore batho ba ba ntseng ba itshetsa nnyaa, le lona kana le goromente, e kete le bone ke ka madinyana ao go ya go ya kwa tlase. Mo e leng gore goromente. Batswana ba tlhopha goromente gore a nne kwa bofelong Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, teng; the Legislature le Executive. Ke bone goromente tota itsholelo ya rona jaaka e ntse e pala go gola, ga e bao, ke a leboga Rraetsho. tle go gola jaaka rona re akanya gore gongwe re ne re MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE solofela gore e ka gola ka teng. (MR KGATHI): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo Ke sone se e leng gore nna go a mpalela, e bile go a tsa Palamente. Ke ema fa go kopa Bakaulengwe gore, ntshita gore ke ka raya Tona gore nnyaa Rraetsho, ke re dumalane le kopo e e beilweng ke Tona wa Madi ka go ema nokeng gore o oketse lekgetho. Nna Rraetsho gore… Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke batla gore HONOURABLE MEMBER: Speaker’s list. go nne very clear, ga ke eme Tona nokeng go oketsa lekgetho gotlhelele fela. Le ka mo ema nokeng ka MR KGATHI: Nnyaa, ga ke mo list, ka gore ditsela tsotlhe, mme nna fela ke le nosi nnyaa, ke gana boeteledipele jo bo tsayang ditshwetso… nnang wa banyana. Ka re a re akanyeng ditsela tse MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, you are dingwe tsa go dira madi. Re tlogeleng gore re tseele imputing improper motives against the Speaker fa o Batswana bonyenyane jo ba nang najo. ntse o re ga ke mo list. Gantsinyana ke e tle ke utlwe batho ba re nnyaa, kana MR KGATHI: Nnyaa Mr Speaker, ba ne ba mpuela fa o re goromente o raya mang, ga kere le wena o dipuo ka fa thoko. Mr Speaker, ke ne ke re boeteledipele goromente. Ke ipotsa gore tota go buiwa jang. Ke go jo bo tsayang ditshwetso, segolo jang fa re le mo tsietsa batho gotwe le wena o goromente, fa motho a seemong se se ntseng jaana ke boeteledipele jo bo nang re o ntsha mogopolo gatwe hei! Naare wena o lebetse le ponelopele. Re mo seemong se e leng gore go na gore le wena o goromente, ke wena goromente. Nnyaa,

30 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution le letlhoko la madi, mme go lekilwe megopolo, ba ba Ke dingwe tse re di buang re re di ka kgona go thusa. reng a go duwe ka megopolo ya gore go batliwe madi Re leboge gore tshekatsheko e o e dirileng ya 2 per ka nngwe tsela mme ba sa ntshe megopolo go tshwana cent fa godimo ya 10 per cent, which is 10 plus 2 ke kana fela le fa ba didimetse. Rona re le puso re rile re yone e e leng gore e tla a kgona go tlisa madi one a o sekasekile, mme se re se bonang gone jaanong ke gore a P700 million. re latlhele lemmenyana mo seemong sa go nna jaana. Madi a o a re tlhalosang gore ga a na go tsenngwa Tota go bua boammaaruri kana kgang e re dumalane le mo dijong jaaka bommidi, mabele, le mabentlele a re yone. E rile maloba fa re fetisa budget, e ne e kwadilwe sekasekeng go tlhomamisa boammaaruri jwa gore ga mo speech. Go tlhalosiwa gore go na le maikaelelo go na bape ba ba tla a kgonang go tsietsa mabapi le go a go dira jaana, mme re dumalane ka yone. Jaaka o latlhela lone lemme le la 10 per cent. Fa batho ba reka bona ba tsamaya, ba a dumela gore re dumalane ka dilo, go supafale sentle gore ga ba na go tsiediwa. Se se yone kgang ya go nna jaana. Se ke batlang go se kopa itumedisang ke gore, o a supa mo pampiring e o le Tona Tona wa Madi ke gore, Tona, o a utlwa le wena fa ya tsa Madi le Ditogamaano gore lekgetho le, ga le na Bakaulengwe ba bua jaaka Motlotlegi Rre Modubule go ama batlhoki. Sone seo ke sone se se botlhokwa. ba fetsa go bua jaana le ba bangwe, gore go tlhokafala Sesupo sa teng se tla jaana, madi a a P700 million will public education. A ko o ye kwa dikgotleng o ye go assist to grow the economy. As the economy grows, it ruta batho, o tlhalosetse batho gore ba tle ba seka ba means it will generate more jobs and then the poor will bolelelwa se e seng boammaaruri ke batho bangwe also benefit. Ke sone se re se buang re re fa madi a a tla gore makgetho a dirwa jang. VAT gore tota e dirwa a tsena, a tsenngwa mo ditlhabololong, setshaba se tla jang, makgetho a mangwe ke afe, e bile go tla jang a nna le mosola mabapi le gore ditiro tse di ntsi di tla gore go tle go okediwe seemo sa go nna jaana. a dirwa go na le gore re ka bo re sa ka ra oketsa madi a go nna jalo. General revenue generation gore mosola wa makgetho a go nna jaana ke afe. Nako e gorogile Mr Speaker Jaaka ke ne ke bua, mafoko ame a makhutshwane. Ke ya gore polotiki ya boitimokanye e tle e fele, batho re re dumalane le kgang e kwa tshimologong, fa ke go ba ba tshwanang le Motlotlegi Rre Modubule. Rona gatelela mafoko re kopa Tona gore a ye go diragatsa, a ra re, re kopa gore puso jaaka e sekasekile ka madi a tswelele ka dikakanyo tse dingwe. Ke a leboga. ditlhabololo a tlhaela, go okediwe gore re tle re kgone go bona. Ene gongwe o ka kgona go bua ka seemo se MR MOREMI (MAUN WEST): Tanki Motsamaisa se ntseng jaana ka gore kgaolo ya gagwe o kgotshe Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Nna ke kopa go latlhela fela ditlhabololo. Kwa Lobatse o agetswe sepatela fela se go le gonnye ka tshutiso e Minister a re e beileng pele. se tona gore a tsene mo go sone. Ke re ke tlhalose gape gore ke bona go sa lebagana gore go le March 29th, Tona a bo a baya tshutiso fa pele ga MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, le fa ntswa o me a re ka 1st April o batla go oketsa VAT. Ka gore nna dirisa mafoko a a kayang improper motives, please ga a mphe nako ya gore ke ye go nna le ba kgaolo ya observe Standing Order 42 (5). me re bue kgang e. Jaanong o raya fela gore ga ke ka re ke a gana a bo a ntseela kwa thoko at the caucus a re MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, ke ne ke re re ema nokeng ga ke a mo tsamaya ke ganne kgang e a e tlisitseng. Ga kgang e mabapi le gore re lemoga temogo e Tona a e go nthuse gore ke bo ke le at ransom go ka dumalana buang gore madi a ditlhabololo a a tlhaela. Jaanong le koketso e e ntseng jaana. Ga ke bone gore koketso se ke neng ke se bua ke gore, gongwe Honourable e tota e lebagane le se Tona a lekang go se dira. Ga ke Modubule o ka tswa a bua jaana ka gore kwa Lobatse bone gore Tona o ne a tlhaela ka P700 million, gore a gongwe go setse go sena fa go ka tsenang ditlhabololo ntshe Botswana fa a leng teng a mo ise golo gongwe in teng. O agetswe sepatela se segolwane le stadium terms of ditlhabololo. Fa e le sengwe, jaaka ba bangwe se se tona kwa Lobatse. Go tlhabololwa ditsela mo ba ntse ba bua, ke bona go ne go ka batlwa fa go neng go Lobatse mme gongwe o ka kgona go bua jaana. Rona ka fokotswa teng expenditure ya ga Goromente gongwe se re se buang ke gore ra re, lemme le le tla a tsenang go latela somewhere near ene P700 million yo o neng ka gore rona kwa kgaolong ya rona kwa Bobirwa, go a tlhokiwa ke VAT increase, gore jaanong re tle mo emisitswe projects di le di ntsi. Fa P700 million gongwe seemong sa gore re ka kgaola deficite e leng teng. a ka kgaoganngwa gotwe go ya go dirwa ditsela tsa motse wa Bobonong, go ka ya go dirwa stadium tse Go builwe mo Ntlong e gore lehuma le atile mo di tshwanang le tse ba Kanye ba di batlang, go ya go Botswana. Kgaolo ya me ya Ngamiland ke yone e e simolodisiwa. Go iwe kwa Chobe kana go iwe kwa kwa godimo. Ga ke itse gore a e engwa pele ke ya Gaborone Central go dirwe sengwe se se rileng. Kgalagadi ka lehuma. Jaanong fa VAT e tsena fela e akaretsa mongwe le mongwe yo o leng teng, a o

Hansard No 163 Part 4 31 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

humile, a o humanegile, ga se distribution e e siameng Jaanong ke ne ke itheile ka re mo dinakong tse di ntseng ya impact. Ke gore mongwe le mongwe o tsaya ka jaana, ke nako ya gore goromente o ka bo a leka go go lekana. Fa o ka leba income distributions tse di rotloetsa itsholelo, go nne expansionary. Batho ba leke leng teng gone jaana, di supa fa bokete jwa madi bo go thama ditiro go hira batho ka itsholelo e wetse kwa ganelela kwa bahuming. Go na le bahumi ba bantsi ba tlase. Jaanong fa re ba imetsa ka go ba okeletsa costs, ba rekang dithoto tse di ntsi go feta bahumanegi ba ba le bone ba ya go fokotsa ba ba tla a bong ba ba thapa leng teng ba ba rekang. Go na le distribution that was go tla go dira ditiro. Go raya gore go ya go tswelela quoted ka 2002 gatwe ke 57 per cent Gini Coefficient. go jwelelela kwa go yone unemployment. E nna chain Go raya gore madi a tshwerwe thata ke batho ba ba fela, se re neng re re re leka go se dira la ntlha, re ya go kwa godimo. Jaanong if you tax them ka go tshwana o boela kwa morago mo go sone. kare re imetsa thata ba ba palelwang ba le kwa tlase. So, ga ke bone gore go ka baya blanket tax mo mongwe Mr Speaker, kana re berekela mo bothateng jwa gore go le mongweng go fair. na le golo gongwe kwa go kwadilweng gotwe minimum wage ke P700. Ke gore Goromente o reile mohiri a re MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND duela P700 fela, le fa mohiri e le gore cost ya gagwe to SECURITY (MR D. R. SERETSE): On a point of produce, can afford go duelwa double that amount, ene clarification. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo molao o itse e le P700. O felela a duela ene P700. tsa Palamente. Ke a leboga Motlotlegi. Ke kopa go utlwisisa mo go Motlotlegi gore a a re lekgetho le MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR applies mo go mongwe le mongwe. Mme ke bona o MOLEFHI): On a point of clarification. Motlotlegi, kare go na le ba e leng gore mo go bone it does not ke ne ke re ke utlwisise sentle gore fa gotwe minimum, apply. Mo go ba bangwe, jaaka fa nna ke tla a duela a kere go tewa gore go se ka ga duelwa selekanyo se se phaleche, bopi le eng. The Honourable Member a re kwa tlase ga bokana, ga gotwe ke maximum. Jaanong ga go a siama gore lekgetho le should apply mo go mongwe le mongwe o ka duela go feta selekanyo se go mongwe le mongwe. Fa re tsena kwa Motswaneng yo tulweng o ka seka wa duela kwa tlase ga sone. Ke ne o dikobo dikhutshwane, dilo tse di ba lebaganyeng, tse ke kopa gore Motlotlegi a ntlhalosetse sentle foo. ba tshelang ka tsone, ga ba duele lekgetho lone leo. MR MOREMI: Nna ke re gongwe re ka e oketsa ka Jaanong fa rotlhe re sa le duele ka gore dijo tse di jewa gore yone tota it encourages batho go duela minimum ke motswana mongwe le mongwe, bothata jwa teng e e ntseng jalo. Falling back to the argument ya gore bo fa kae? gongwe lekgetho le le ntseng jaana, le ka bo le le isa MR MOREMI: Tanki Mr Speaker. Nna ke itumeletse kwa dikompone, ka gore tsone le ba reile la re duelang fela gore Tona wa Finance and Development Planning o minimum wage go ema fa. Ga ba pateletsege. Even if lekile go tsibosa Batswana mo ntlheng ya go ja dijo tsa they calculated expenses tsa bone, gongwe ba ne ba ka Setswana. Go na le mosadi mongwe, o kwala malatsi oketsa se ba ntseng ba se duela babereki. Ba felela ba otlhe a re go nne go jewa dijo tsa Setswana ka ke tsone ba duela… tse di dikota di kwa godimo. Jaanong fa o tla o re tse o MR MODUBULE: On a point of elucidation. Ee, ya go di tlhokisa tax, a ke zero kana exempts ka gore ke ke re Motlotlegi o bolelela ruri, kana le Tona o a itse dijo tsa Setswana, mme tsotlhe di limilwe ka terekere, gore mo madirelong, batho ba duelwa fela ka yone leokwane le labour cost e tshwanang. Ke gore fela fa minimum wage eo Rraetsho. Le fa o le dingwaga di o e reka mo mabentleleng, fa go kwadilweng VAT, go le kae o berekile foo, bahiri ba duela fela ka yone tla a bo go seo. Ene motho yo o tla a tlang a e rekisetsa minimum wage eo. Ke gore ga ba na sepe gore wa lebentlele leo, o ya go oketsa tlhwatlhwa ya yone ka re ke minimum. Fa o tla o le goromente o re o ya go gore se a se tsentseng to produce selo seo, le sone se sekaseka dibuka, ba re kana re duela ka sone selekanyo tsentswe VAT. So re itseetsa ka mafoko, mme effect ya se goromente a rileng re duele ka sone. So, ga go na ka teng e tla e tshwana. Input costs tsa production fa re re fa o ka fetang kgang eo ka teng. Ke a leboga. we produce dijo tse di kwadilweng fa, tsone di ya go oketsega. So go raya gore le tsone dijo tse le fa gongwe MR MOREMI: Nna ke ne ke re gongwe re felela re mo label di sa kwalwa VAT 12 per cent, cost ya teng le itseetsa fela, Speaker. Fa o ka leba economy ya Botswana, tsone e ya go nna e oketsega. Ke sone se ke reng ga ke the biggest consumer ke goromente. Kgantele o ne a re bone mosola wa go di nankola fa re re tsone ga di na o ya go adima kwa ARAB Bank. O tsaya madi gongwe increase ya VAT. Ka gore re rata le re sa rate, 2 per cent le gongwe e le a ga goromente, a bo a a tsenya on the o na le a general inflationary impact across the board. economy. A bo a re go tswa gompieno ke ya go kgethisa So le tsone di ya go amega fela bokete go tshwana. madi a ke le a neetseng. Ke a oketsa ka 2 per cent. Ke bona a oketsa administrative cost fela tsa to manage this

32 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution item, ka gore ka fa o a tsaya ka fa o a tsenya. E ntse e a re sekang ya re fa re bua kgang e, ra bua jaaka o le madi a a tswang from same source. So ke bona e le kare goromente is punishing bahumanegi, dilo di di go dikologa fela chasing your tail like a dog. E le gore ntsi tse madi a a tla a kgonang go di dira. Gompieno impact e ya go felela mo bathong ba ba humanegileng. rona mo dikgaolong tsa rona, jaaka mo metseng e e tshwanang le ya Majwanaadipitse re na le mathata Ka mafoko a go nna jalo Mr Speaker, tota nna ke re a metsi, metlakase ga e ise e tsene, le gore projects gongwe re ka boela morago 12 per cent yo, segolo tse di ntsi tse di neng di tshwanetse gore di dirwe mo bogolo jang re lebile thatafalo ya itsholelo mo mongwe sebakeng sa gompieno di kgaotswe. Ga di na go dirwa le mongwe ka kakaretso, bogolo jang ba ba kwa tlase e e ka gore ga go na madi. tlileng ka yone kwelotlase ya itsholelo ya mafatshefatshe. Nna ke ne ke re re rotloetse Bakaulengwe gore re seka ra Jaanong fa go ntse jalo, madi a re tla a bong re a bona dumela Minister gore a tswelele. a, ke one a tla a bong a ya go thusa batlhoki. Selo sa ntlha goromente fa a tswa mo lenaneong la gore MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND batlhoki ba boammaaruri ba se ka ba rekelwa dijo. SECURITY (MR D. R. SERETSE): Ke a leboga Batlhoki ba tshwanetse gore ba tswelele ba rekelwe Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke emela go dijo, mme kana fa sepatshe se ka ngofela sa tlhaela, ema nokeng tshutiso e, e se ka go rata le keletso. E le batlhoki ba ba tla a palelwa ke gore ba rekelwe dijo. ka mabaka a e leng gore a teng mo sebakeng se re leng Gape le fa gotwe re lebe kwa le kwa, dilo tse di ntsi tse gore sone. Sepe se e leng gore se ka imela Motswana, di lebaganeng le batlhoki ba Batswana, jaaka re setse Goromente wa Botswana ga a kake a se dira, fa e le re boleletswe ka dijo, re ka boa ra ya go tsena le kwa gore ga a patelesege go dira sengwe sa go nna jalo. Self Help Housing Agency (SHHA), gone kwa e leng Ke bo ke re, le fa bangwe ba ka ema ba re, “nnyaa go gore bonno ke nngwe ya dilo tse motho o tshwanetseng gaufi thata ga re a ka ra kgona go buisanya le batho ba gore a nne le tsone. Ra re fa o leka o le motho yo o ba re romileng,” ke re mme kana selo se on the budget kobo dikhutshwane, o ithusa go aga ntlo, kana o e speech se ile sa buiwa. Go ile ga supiwa maikaelelo a agelwa ke goromente ka mananeo a Ministry of Lands go ka se dira. Re bo re tshwanelwa ke gore le rona re le and Housing e tlang ka one, ga o duele Value Added Mapalamente, re lebe molao o e leng gore o na le gore Tax (VAT) mo sekolotong se o tla a bong o se tsere. Ke o letlelela Tona gore o ka diragatsa se. Ya re morago ga nngwe ya go supa gore goromente tota ke wa batho ba kgwedi tse thataro, a bo a tshwanelwa ke gore a se tlise ba dikobo dikhutshwane, le yone VAT ga e yo. kwano gore se tle go netefadiwa ke Palamente. Jaanong mo go nakong yone e, re ka bo re ntse re boetse morago Jaanong re tsena mo go tsa temo; fertiliser o e neelwa gore morago ga Budget Speech, re bo re ntse re bua le mahala mo selekanyong se o se batlang, tsone dijo tse ba ga rona. Re leka go ba lemotsha gore kana go na le re yang go di ja, peo o e neelwa mahala, o lemelwa kgonagalo e e ntseng jaana, la reng ka yone. mahala ditema tse di setseng di builwe. Fa VAT e ka bo e ne e duelwa kana invoices tsa batho ba ba lemang Ke re tota nako ya gompieno ke nako e e leng gore go tse di ne di ya go tla di na le VAT mo teng. Dilo tse ke thata. Fa go le thata, re tshwanetse gore dilo dingwe dingwe tse goromente a di diragatsang go bontsha gore re di dire, le fa go le botlhoko, mme kana fa gongwe fa a dira se a se dirang, ga se go se dira ka go sokodisa botlhoko e ka nna one molemo. batho, o a bo a lebile mabaka otlhe a a leng teng. Go bua MR MODUBULE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa nnete, tse dingwe tse re tla a bong re duela makgetho Palamente, ke reeditse Tona ka fa a buang ka teng. mo go tsone fa e le tsa dijo, ke tse re sa di tlhokeng, Ke gore ke ipotsa gore a re ka Budget Speech go ne mme re di batlang. Tse re sa di tlhokeng mme re di ga buiwa jalo, gore a go kile ga re morago ga Budget batla tseo, di tla a duelwa ke ba e leng gore ba ka di Speech ga nna le nngwe nako ya gore batho ba ka boela kgona. Golo moo ke gone mo e leng gore ke bona o kwa dikgaolong tsa bone ba ya go rerisana le batho kare ke sone se se siameng. Tota go dira jaana ke go kana o raya eng? leka go tsaya madi mo go ba ba kgonang go diragaletsa ba ba sa kgoneng dikeletso le tshiamelo. MR D. R. SERETSE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Tota mo mabakeng a Ka bokhutshwane jo bo kana, ke ema nokeng Tona. Le gompieno nako epe e o e boneng, gompieno fa o bagaetsho ba ba nthomileng kwano ba itse gore letsatsi le morongwa, you take advantage of every little leno fa ke ema, ke ema nokeng Tona. Se o kareng se opportunity fa o ka lemoga gore gongwe o tla a tloga o botlhoko mo go bone ke lebile go feta botlhoko, ke pitlagana. Jaanong Labotlhano maitseboa le Matlhatso lebile tshiamelo e e tla a tlang ka se e leng gore se tla le nako e e rileng, ke ne ke rotloetsa gore re ka dira dilo a bo se dirwa ke goromente. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa tsa go nna jalo. Ka gore ke batla go nna mokhutshwane, Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 33 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

MR D. SALESHANDO (GABORONE CENTRAL): Less than two weeks ago, Honourable Kgathi was Thank you Mr Speaker. I made it clear during the main asked to indicate the success rate of this Out of School debate of the budget that I think the 2 per cent increase Youth Fund or grants, which again the Ministry was in VAT is ill-advised. Maybe in a way, the economic warned years back that this is not sustainable. Only downturn has been a blessing in disguise. When you now we realise that the failure rate is actually about 50 are a government and every financial year there is more per cent. In other words, for every Pula that you use on revenue than what you intend to spend, it takes away the system, the second Pula you throw down the drain. the appetite for innovation. It takes away the appetite to Because we think it is a good thing to present to the try and get more with less. To try and do more for your youth, because we also want to... people without digging too deep into their pockets. When this benefit of the mineral revenue was taken away, we MR MOREMI: On a point of clarification Mr would probably see the present day government for what Speaker. Ke ne ke re ke tlhomamise gore gone ga kere it really is. Is there anything the Botswana Democratic fa re re madi a tsene in the literal drain, ke gore a tsene Party (BDP) can do in the absence of the diamonds? I mo itsholelong ya Botswana. Gongwe ga a a nna fela think the answer is clear, in the absence of the diamonds, mo item ya Out of School Youth, mme one a teng mo it is Batswana’s pockets that you will flee to. We have itsholelong, the general economy ya Botswana. just come from a general election; we all went into this MR D. SALESHANDO: We are investing because we general election knowing the economic status of this wanted to get a return, and when you fund a business, country and the global economic position. But the BDP the expectation is that, it will create new additional never promised people that they will increase taxes, this revenue, it will create new opportunities. But when half is outright deception. Every government that goes into the businesses close, you cannot call the 50 per cent an election with plans to increase tax should disclose that has collapsed as an investment. That look, even if that it intends to do that. You knew before October that they were swindling the government money ended up you have plans to increase tax, but did not disclose to serving the economy in the pockets of a swindler, and the voters. We cannot pretend that the current status is that itself is good enough. I do not think that was the a new discovery. It is something that we did not know intended objective. about. You were voted into office and all of a sudden you were confronted with declining revenue and therefore We must also remember that Botswana has the highest there is a need to increase taxes. level of inequality in the region. Some of these countries that we are saying have a higher tax rate, have a much Mr Speaker, I think we all know also that there is a lot more equitable distribution of their wealth. When they of unnecessary expenditure that the BDP government tax, the capacity of the population to absorb the shock undertakes. Not long ago, one of the private newspapers from the tax is much greater than where you have quoted some international journal that made comparisons high inequalities. Tell me any of the countries with between countries on expenditure on security, the higher tax rates that you mentioned which have particularly military hardware, matters of the security a higher income inequality than Botswana. There are sector. Botswana is one of the highest spenders on none; that is a fact. So, for you to then introduce a tax security. In terms of the priorities facing Batswana, is it that is indiscriminate, a tax that targets the wealthy in really a pressing need. Do we really need to be building as much as it targets the poor, it is unfair on those who barracks at the State House? The funny part is that, have been left out of the development process, who when we present what these funds would be used for, have been left out of the key economic activities. This we do not state any of these things. We say no it will be argument that, ‘look there are some food stuffs that are schools, we do not state that we also want to build a few excluded,’ it is also really not valid. barracks, including one at the Office of the President. Neither before have I seen this government introducing Kana we have a huge pool of the working poor in this new levies and telling Batswana that we think we need country. People who are working on a monthly basis, a new Presidential Jet for His Excellency, an executive but their salaries or their income is below the living caravan, to increase the number of Specially Nominated wage. It is below what you need to be able to sustain a Councillors who can fund the BDP in its campaigns. meaningful lifestyle. Look at transport in Gaborone, for We never state any of these things, we selectively most people it is a major concern. When you are going choose so that we continue to deceive Batswana about to introduce this tax increase, it also increases transport where unnecessary costs are coming from. I have also costs. For a lot of my constituents in Gaborone central, previously warned about some of these unsustainable it is a major expense. You have not granted a salary presidential experiments that you have been undertaking, increase for two consecutive financial years, people’s and these are a cost to the economy. income has been eroded by inflation. On top of that,

34 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution you are increasing the tax. Is there no entity called the ruling party when it comes to how best to manage the household that should also be able to balance its this country. Your point of refuge every time there is a budget? In the same way that... crisis is Batswana’s pockets. To dig into their pockets and to get money out of them and balance the national MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT budget. But there will be no point in addressing the PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): On a point of macro economic challenges by creating crisis at clarification Mr Speaker. I just wanted to draw the household levels. I do not know what joy I will have, attention of the Honourable Member, that in my speech going to my constituents and say that, “out of your presenting this motion, I have indicated that some of misery, out of your inability to balance your household the supplies that are exempt is transport issue, whether budgets, we were able to balance the national budget.” it be by rail or by road. So to stand up now and say that It does not make me a better representative. To be able my people are going to be affected in terms of transport to create a crisis for the constituents and say to them, is wrong because it is exempted. Thank you. “it was because of a national good.” That national good MR D. SALESHANDO: Mr Speaker, any inflationary must trickle down to all households irrespective of the pressure will affect costs of transport in the economy. I status in the economy. have no doubt that very soon; association representing MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT taxi drivers or taxi owners will be up in arms calling PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): On a point of for an increase in fares. They would have a good clarification Mr Speaker. I think it would be unfair justification of all the other inputs that have had an Honourable Member if you were to go to your increase over time. The likelihood is that, part of it will electorate and tell them that they should pay this tax. arise from this 2 per cent VAT, it may not be direct but By so doing, you will have balanced the budget. That it ultimately affects it. Fuel, do we not charge tax on will be totally unfair and not correct. Because as I fuel? So there are many ways in submission in trying have said, this 2 per cent yields a very, very minute to capture my concerns. fraction of the P12.1 billion deficit. It is not balancing The cost of living; there is no way anyone can argue the budget. It is just a minute contribution that we are that the cost of living for the low income group is not asking our Batswana to do; to finance development for going to change on account of this. There is no way themselves not for anybody else. Thank you. you can argue for that. MR D. SALESHANDO: Nnyaa, Honourable The point I was making before the Minister intervened Matambo, had there not been a budget deficit, all that was that, in the same way that government has a right you are saying is that you would have not introduced to try and balance its overall budget, do you not also this. So you are suggesting that we must go to the recognise the need for households in this economy to constituents and tell them that there was a revenue be able to balance their budgets? Do you not recognise shortfall. And one of the things you did was to increase the need for young people in the University who are their tax burden indiscriminately, irrespective of paying for their books, who have to contend with capacity to contribute. Increasing it without having reduced allowances, do you not recognise the need for regard to the levels of inequality. That even those who them to balance their budget? How do they balance did not benefit from the boom years, are now coerced their budgets in the phase of diminishing revenue on to also settle a debt that they did not create. A debt account of government policy and at the same time we from which they did not benefit. increase the tax that they face? This is the problem that MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS I have with this proposal. DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): On Not long ago, members from the Botswana Democratic a point of elucidation Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Party (BDP) argued that the cost from nominated Speaker. Thank you Honourable for yielding. The councillors is not prohibitive and can be accommodated. Honourable Member continues as if taxation is a crime Not long ago, there was an attempt by the ruling BDP if governments do it. Governments all over the world to increase the number of specially elected Members come up with taxes to raise funds. It is a legitimate of Parliament from four to eight to double the costs. way which I believe even if the miracle were to happen For them, today to suggest that you need to satisfy that his government were to go in power, they would those who are borrowing you money that you are also raise taxes. The question is how you raise them and doing something to try and reduce costs by taxing the care you give that the people that get affected are indiscriminately, I think it shows complete lack of those that can afford the effect of the increases. Taxes innovation. There is a clear poverty of ideas on part of are normal.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 35 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

MR D. SALESHANDO: It is criminal to try and reap worse between the two reports. The latest one shows an where you did not sow. Because what has happened increasing level of inequality. They should have taught like I said earlier on, in the boom years, this economy you this when you were at finance. I think you were excluded a lot of people, that is why we have one of there for too long. But that is factual, it is increasing. the highest in the levels of inequalities in the region. So you cannot talk of the fastest reducing, when it is If it was a balanced way of benefiting, we would not actually increasing. You cannot have the two at the same be talking the high levels of poverty that we have time. I think Honourable Rakhudu is definitely wrong in this country. We would not be having the highest and may be confusing concepts. In terms of available levels of unemployment that we have in this country. literature in government, the last report showed that we But like I said... are worse off on account of our gini coefficient. So I cannot accept an explanation that says it is the fastest HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. reducing, that is not possible.

MR SPEAKER: Clarification sought by the Assistant Mr Speaker, the problem of the poor in this country, all Minister, Honourable Member are you yielding? of a sudden when I asked a question last week about MR D. SALESHANDO: If I could just respond destitute persons, it became clear from the answer satisfactorily to the ones raised. And once more by the Assistant Minister of Local Government that Honourable Matambo, you are quick to say this is to in the run up elections, there was a high number of finance projects that Batswana need. What about the newly registered destitute. The BDP was going to the projects that they do not need? During the debate on State elections. So thousands of people were registered as Presidency, in my constituency, you are building barracks destitutes. Come October, a decision is taken, this is at the State House. I do not need it in my constituency. I not sustainable. Most of them taken out, now gatwe ba have no doubt if you were to ask the people of Gaborone ye kwa Ipelegeng. So clearly we carried a huge burden. Central if they need the new barracks that you are Part of the campaigning election expenses that are not building at State House, they would be clear that they do disclosed, are hidden under rations to destitute persons. not need it. So, people of Gaborone Central have also said Post elections they are all cut out. But then again one that, ‘we do not need nominated councillors.’ Why can of the problems with the structure of our economy, this we not be genuine about it and also say we need you to has never made sense to me. If government policy is to pay more taxes because amongst other things, the cost of try and encourage people to graduate out of destitution, maintaining the nominated councillors in this country has why make the destitutes allowance greater than the increased this financial year? amounts payable under Ipelegeng. How are this people who were registered destitutes in the run up to elections ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND now going to survive after a reduction in their income. SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): On Because they have now been transferred to Ipelegeng, a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Thank you very now that the elections are over. After that, they are much Mr Speaker and thank you Honourable Member confronted with an increase in VAT. for Gaborone Central to yield before you got much too far, lest my point becomes a little irrelevant. You do MR ARONE: On a point of elucidation. Thank you, talk about the income disparity ya Botswana being the just briefly. I only learned Honourable Saleshando worst in the region. Would you also not say that it is yesterday that the people who have been removed from the fastest reducing in the region and that by the way, a destitute programme and were promised that they it is just historical, but it is the fastest reducing in the would now be employed permanently in the Ipelegeng region. Would you not say that? programme, that decision has been reversed. That continues to show how unreliable and how we cannot MR D. SALESHANDO: Well I think it is an established trust this government of the day, more especially when fact that it has been the highest I think since I was at they come from an election. high school up until now when I am an ageing father of two. When I was a teenager, it was still the highest. If it MR D. SALESHANDO: Well it is very consistent were the fastest reducing, simple logic would determine with the general conduct to the BDP. But one thing that at one point, it would overtake some other nations. that I also learnt about this programme and this is the But you have not overtaken any for the past two to three deceptive nature of this leadership. The statistics that decades. In fact Mr Speaker, Honourable Rakhudu is we are given for Ipelegeng, I only got to learn recently wrong. Because if you take the result from the last two that the numbers we are given, when they actually say surveys on household income and expenditure, dealing 11000, when you work month one, gone foo you are with the incoming equalities, inequalities have gotten counted one.

36 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Monday 29th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN THE RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution

If your get an opportunity to get a second month, you ka bua go fitlhelelaseven . E seka ya re gompieno o bo are counted as a second person who have benefited o re a re vote. Ga e bewe gope potso. from the system. One person counted twice and you get all these numbers that are floated around as if there MR SPEAKER: Honourable Saleshando, side remarks is a huge number of people who are benefiting from please. Honourable Venson-Moitoi, a senior Minister, these social safety network, when it is not true. please you know the rules of the House. Please!

We call it a difficult decision, for the Botswana MR D. SALESHANDO: Thank you, she has been Democratic Party (BDP) I think it is an easy decision running a commentary the whole evening. to take because you do not have any other ideas that MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS AND you are bringing to the table. You are not proposing, PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MS MOTSUMI): Ke you have not come up with proposals on new revenue ne ke re ke kope tlhalosonyana mo go Mokaulengwe. generation that will not bring misery to households. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND Ke ne ke re ke botse fa ke ne ke utlwa a bua ka the SECURITY (MR D. R. SERETSE): Point of unfairness ya go duedisa batho ba botlhe lekgetho le le clarification. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa tshwanang, le ba e leng gore ba amogela kwa godimo. Palamente le Motlotlegi. Ke ne ke re gongwe ke re, Ke re, ga kere mme ba ba amogelang kwa godimo, ba Motlotlegi a re ga re na proposals dipe tse re di tlisang. duela income tax e e leng gore ba ba kwa tlase ga ba e Mme kana kwa bothokong jwa rona, kwa re kopanang duele? Ke boletsa mo go reng, re seka ra e baya jaaka e teng, re tswa ka proposals, ka boikarabelo jwa rona. kare ke gore go ntse fela jalo, ga go na kelelelo ya gore Tsotlhe tse re bonang di ka tswa di le teng go ka bangwe ga ba na dikamogelo tse di kwa godimo tse ba diragadiwa, re bo re bona gore ke dife tse di botoka tse ka kgonang go kgetha jaaka ba bangwe. E seka ya ne di ka diragadiwang. Jaanong ga se gore re tle kwano ka e kete ka dinako tse tsotlhe ba ba kwa godimo le ba ba proposals di le ten, mme re itse e le nngwe fela. Re tla a kwa tlase ba a tshwana mo lekgethong. tla ka e rona re le babusi re bonang gore ke yone. Bone MR D. SALESHANDO: Mr Speaker, my point was a a ba tswe ka proposals tse e leng gore ba bona gore di simple one. We have had boom years in this economy; ka ema tsa ganetsa e, tsa bo tsa nna botoka mo go yone. unfortunately we were not able to distribute the benefits Rona re setse re tlile ka proposals. proportionately, leading to an economy of high inequalities. MR SPEAKER: Proposals ke tseo Honourable When we hit the bad road, when the storm gathers, why Saleshando, tswelela le tsone. can we not focus on the high end of the economic ladder, and say to those people, “can you contribute a little bit MR D. SALESHANDO: Nnyaa, gone ba feletswe, more than you have been contributing. Because in any I guess ba feletse gone fa. But one thing the Minister case you are the main beneficiaries of the boom years. should have considered is that, dealing with an economy The main benefits that the country derived are found in of high levels of inequality, in an attempt to cushion the your bank balances”. Why can we not show an additional low income group, particularly even those who are the mercy to the low income group and come up with new working class, we should have adjusted two things, one; interventions to cushion them from the impact of the the threshold for payment of personal income tax. The downturn? Because like I was saying earlier on, this is not low income group, the very low income group at P2, 500 the only levy, you know this Budget has been a Budget of a month, you start paying tax. We should have adjusted levies. When we went through the Committee of Supply, it upwards, to cushion those who are at the low levels almost all the Ministries were proposing some new of the ladder and at the same time increase the rate for levies for the households. At the Ministry of Minerals, the very high income earners in this economy. During Energy and Water Resources, there is a new levy whose difficult times, those who benefited in proportionately impact will be to move the cost of electricity upwards, must pay more than those who missed out of the boom there will be an additional one. Not only the five thebe years. There is no reason, why you are protecting the per megawatt or something, there will also be an increase high income earners and saying that the burden they in the price. Whatever the phrasing is, there will also be should carry should be the same as the poorest of the a general increase in the price of electricity. There will poor in the economy? That is not fair. actually be a two phased increase to the cost of electricity in this country. HONOURABLE MEMBER: ... (Inaudible)... Other Ministries like I say, Ministry of Lands and MR D. SALESHANDO: Nnyaa, maloba o ne o bua fa Housing are thinking of extending, not actually ka motion go fitlhelela nako e tshaya, le nna ke ka nna extending, I think they have confirmed that they want

Hansard No 163 Part 4 37 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

to extend the service levy to the rural areas, which i) the elephant population of Botswana is currently have a high prevalence of poverty level than the urban estimated at over 150,000 animals; areas. Now, this becomes a problem. You cannot have a budget of one levy after the other, without proposing ii) the Nkange Constituency supports a transient a point where you are going to also protect the most population estimated at 200 elephants. The vulnerable in the economy. number fluctuates due to movements of these animals between the constituency, Ngwasha area But the last point.... and adjoining landmasses in Zimbabwe;

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Member, iii) since the beginning of the year 2010, a total of 128 regrettably we cannot increase the time for you to cases of crop destruction and damage by elephants make the last point. were reported in the Nkange constituency;

MOTION iv) a total of P11,636.68 was paid as compensation for the mentioned damage; ADJOURNMENT v) my Ministry has no plans to drive the elephants MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND out of Nkange Constituency into wildlife WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): management areas. However, a hunting quota Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do now was issued to create disturbance which may drive adjourn. some elephants out of the area.

Question put and agreed to. Lastly Mr Speaker, I wish to impress upon Batswana The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 7:00 p.m. to start being enterprising enough to see opportunities until Tuesday 30th March, 2010 at 2:30 p.m. presented by having wildlife resources within their areas and not wish the potential wealth away. I thank Tuesday 30th March, 2010 you Mr Speaker.

THE ASSEMBLY met at 2.30 p.m. MR MAKOSHA: Ke a go leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Potso ya me ke gore, (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) fa Ministry wa gago o sena maikaelelo a go ntsha P R A Y E R S diphologolo mo mafelong a batho, a mme o bona matshelo a batho a sireletsegile, etswa o itse gore ga * * * * ba na ditlhobolo tse di ka kgonang gore ba iphemele mo go tsone, e bile o sena maikaelelo a go ba neela QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER ditlhobolo? Thank you. NUMBER OF ELEPHANTS AND STATUS OF MR MOKAILA: Ke dumela gore matshelo a batho a CROPS IN BOTSWANA tla a bo a sa sireletsega tota fa ke ka ba neela ditlhobolo. MR E. J. BATSHU (NKANGE): asked the Minister Ga ke na maikaelelo Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism to state: Palamente, a go ntsha diphologolo mo nageng epe. Ka gore le tsone di tshwanetse di tshele golo gongwe. Ke i) the number of elephants in Botswana; a leboga.

ii) the number of elephants in the Nkange LACK OF MONITORING OF AEROPLANES Constituency; AND HELICOPTERS THAT FLY TOURISTS

iii) the number of cases of crop destruction by MR R. B. MAKOSHA (NATA/GWETA): asked the elephants reported in the Nkange Constituency Minister of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism:- beginning the year 2010; a) whether there are aeroplanes and helicopters that iv) how much was paid in compensation; and fly tourists into certain safari lodges without any monitoring in place; and v) when he intends to drive the elephants out of Nkange Constituency into wildlife management areas. b) how poaching of animals (that can easily be carried out in the said aeroplanes/helicopters) is controlled MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE in these areas. AND TOURISM (MR MOKAILA): Mr Speaker,

38 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE ii) when he will address this anomaly. AND TOURISM (MR MOKAILA): Mr Speaker, ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL a) There are indeed aeroplanes and helicopters that GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Thank you fly tourists into and out of safari lodges and other Mr Speaker. I am aware that not all roads in villages tourism establishments within the country. However, have speed humps. However, speed humps are being these are monitored since all aeroplanes, helicopters provided on specific sections of roads where they and their pilots are inspected by airport security are required such as nearer to schools, clinics and and customs officials before departing to, and on other public facilities. This is an ongoing exercise arrival from these areas. In addition, all movements undertaken by each local authority countrywide as and of aircrafts in Botswana are monitored by the Civil when necessary. Thank you Mr Speaker. Aviation Authority of Botswana (CAAB). It is a statutory requirement that all aircrafts be registered PLANS TO ESTABLISH A GAME MEAT and their flight plans be lodged with CAAB; ABATTOIR b) Mr Speaker, my Ministry, through the Department MR R. B. MAKOSHA (NATA/GWETA): asked the of Wildlife and National Parks is implementing Minister of Agriculture whether there are any future its anti-poaching strategy in collaboration with plans to establish an abattoir for game meat. relevant stakeholders such as BDF and the Botswana ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (MR Police Service. This entails conducting patrols and MOLEBATSI): Thank you Mr Speaker. The Ministry spot checks to curb smuggling of wildlife. I must of Agriculture has no future plans to establish an admit that, there is room for improvement in order abattoir for game meat. The Ostrich Abattoir at Sebele to detect and deter such crimes effectively. along the airport road, is a multi-species abattoir that It is however, my plea to the general public that when can process game animals. Two trial slaughters of game such illegal activities are noted or suspected, my Ministry were successfully conducted in November 2004 and should be notified at the earliest possible time so that we July 2008 by the abattoir with satisfactory results that can act accordingly. I thank you Mr Speaker. the abattoir can handle game and process game meat.

CONSIDERATION TO BUILD A LIBRARY IN Mr Speaker, private investors and other institutions SHAKAWE may however establish an abattoir for game meat if they wish to. I thank you Mr Speaker. MR B. ARONE (OKAVANGO): asked the Minister of Youth, Sport and Culture when he will consider NUMBER OF LAWYERS ON C AND D SCALES building a library in Shakawe to assist the growing MR E. J. BATSHU (NKANGE): asked the Minister population of the Okavango Constituency, as Shakawe for Presidential Affairs and Public Administration how is now the Sub-District Headquarters. many Lawyers are employed in the Public Service on MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE C and D scales. (MR KGATHI): Mr Speaker, it has always been ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL government policy to build libraries throughout the AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR country in order to provide information to the nation. M. E. MASISI): Thank you Mr Speaker. There are 214 Shakawe library project was supposed to have been Lawyers employed in the Public Service, out of which carried over from NDP 9 to NDP 10 but had to be 74 are in the C band and 140 in the D band. I thank you deferred due to the economic downturn. Shakawe will Mr Speaker. be considered for the construction of such a library alongside other sub-districts when the economic STATUS OF FUNDS HELD IN INTEREST situation improves. I thank you Mr Speaker. EARNING ACCOUNTS BY ALL COUNCILS

LACK OF SPEED HUMPS IN MOST VILLAGES MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked the Minister of Local Government to state: MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked the Minister of Local Government: i) the total funds held in interest earning accounts by all councils at the end of the 2007/08 and i) whether is aware that most villages do not have 2008/09 financial years; speed humps thus leaving residents, especially children, vulnerable to vehicles driving at high ii) the average length of time such funds are kept on speed; and interest earning accounts;

Hansard No 163 Part 4 39 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

iii) what percentage contribution of interest earned is MS TSHIRELETSO: Ga ke lemoge fa madi a to the overall revenue of councils; development a busiwa. Jaaka ke bua ka madi a, ke a e leng gore kompone e a bo e le mo tirong e dira tsela iv) whether the desire to generate funds through kana e aga. Ga o ka ke wa tsaya madi a mong wa one o interest earned does not frustrate project bo o a busetsa kwa go goromente. Ke bua ka madi a e implementation. leng gore ke a beng ba one.

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL TOTAL ANNUAL REVENUE IN TOURISM GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Thank you INDUSTRY Mr Speaker. The total funds held in interest earning accounts by all the 16 councils at the end of the 2007/08 MR R. B. MAKOSHA (NATA/GWETA): asked the and 2008/09 financial years, were P531,458,776.00 Minister of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism:- and P542,607,975.00 respectively. i) to state the annual revenue that accrues to citizens The average length of time such funds are kept on and non-citizens in the tourism industry; and interest earning accounts is between 14 to 180 days (6 months). Such funds are drawn as and when councils ii) how much revenue does Government earn per have a financial obligation to honour. annum from tourism activities or ventures.

The percentage contribution of interest earned to the MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE overall own sources of revenue for councils is 30 per AND TOURISM (MR MOKAILA): Mr Speaker, cent. i) there is no separate data available that specifically Mr Speaker, the desire to generate funds through interest quantifies the exact revenue that accrues to earned does not frustrate project implementation citizens and non-citizens in the tourism industry. because payments to contractors are made in stages However, there are other indicators that can be upon submission of certificates. Funds are therefore used to show the extent of citizen participation held on investment as a temporary measure and in the tourism sector. Currently, there are 662 withdrawn at different stages of implementation for licensed tourism facilities in the country broken payments to contractors, suppliers and other services. down as follows: Thank you Mr Speaker. • 325 are wholly citizen owned,

MR D. SALESHANDO: Is the Minister aware that • 138 are joint ventures, while the Auditor General has in the past raised a query objecting to the tendency by councils to keep their • 199 are foreign owned funds in interest bearing accounts, for purpose of It is also known that out of the P2, 943 million spent by earning interest? tourists in 2009, 35 per cent was spent on accommodation, MS TSHIRELETSO: I am not aware Mr Speaker. I whose workforce is 80 per cent citizens. will have to investigate. ii) Mr Speaker, the Government revenue earned MR MABILETSA: Ke ne ke re Tona a tlhalose gore from tourism activities or ventures is generally fa madi a le in those investment accounts, fa jaaka from three main sources: ngwaga wa madi wa ga goromente o wela, madi a go ●● Non tax revenue of P38.4 million as collected diragala eng ka one? A a busediwa kwa go goromente in 2009 from license fees, parks entry fees and kana a nna a ntse a le gone foo? training levy. MS TSHIRELETSO: Ga go na madi a a ka busediwang ●● Tourism Industry based Tax revenue figures kwa go goromente. Ka gore tota ke madi a e leng gore which are currently not available. My Ministry ke a dikompone tse di hirilweng. A a bo a beilwe tsone is collaborating with the Botswana Unified di ntse di tsweletse di dira tiro. Ke madi a e leng gore a Revenue Services (BURS) for possible nna a ntse a tswelela a duela, a mo Call Account. computation of such statistics in future. MR MABILETSA: A mme Tona o lemoga gore mo ga ●● Land rental and resource royalties for goromente madi a development projects le a recurrent, concession areas. However, the collecting the unspent balances at the end of the financial year authorities do not currently disaggregate their a busediwa kwa morago, e bo e le gore go dirwa a revenue figures to reflect the contribution masha? A o ka tlhalosa?

40 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

of tourism, hence such data is currently Appointments and Selection Committee resolved to unavailable. Data collection in this regard will consider three (3) candidates who were marginally be improved. I thank you Mr Speaker. short of the required seven years experience in a senior Human Resources management position yet fitting in MR MAKOSHA: Rraetsho, ke ne ke re ke botse gore the other set requirements and recommend to appointing kana go na le tumelo ya gore tourism is the second from authorities the circumstances of this action. diamonds. Jaanong, ke ipotsa gore fa re sena dipalo tse di supang gore tourism e re tlisetsa bokae mo Ministry Mr Speaker, one of the candidates was internal and wa gago, re tla a dumela jang tota gore lephata la gago was short by eight (8) months the others were external la tourism le re tlisetsa sengwe se se bonalang? Tanki candidates and were short by five (5) and four (4) months. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. The committee decided to host interviews for the three candidates to satisfy itself that while they barely made MR MOKAILA: Eo e ne e se potso ya gago, mme ke the seven (7) years required, they would be worthy of tla a go e arabela fela ka go go tlhomogela pelo. special commendation for assessment at the University Contribution ya tourism to Gross Domestic Product of Botswana Assessment and Development Centre and (GDP) fa o e bapisa le diteemane, agriculture le eng, subsequent consideration and possible appointment by ke yone e lomang serota diteemane. Re bona moo ka the Staff Appointments and Promotion Committee of go akaretsa dilo tsotlhe tse di tswang mo bojanaleng. Council. The Committee also decided that since all the Re itse jalo. Ke a leboga. candidates barely made this experience requirement, only candidates who scored EXCELLENT or VERY GOOD STATUS ON THE POST OF DIRECTOR, will be considered for the next level of selection. HUMAN RESOURCES AT UNIVERSITY OF BOTSWANA Mr Speaker, during the interviews hosted by the Divisional Appointments and Promotions Committee, MR E. J. BATSHU (NKANGE): asked the Minister the internal candidate was found to be GOOD, the other of Education and Skills Development:- external candidate scored SATISFACTORY, while the other external candidate (now the incumbent Director, i) How many applicants showed interest in the post Human Resources) was found to have scored VERY of Director, Human Resources at the University GOOD. It is therefore, only this Candidate that made it of Botswana, following an advertisement of the to the Assessment and Development Centre. post (vacancy no. HR 1/2007) and how did each applicant perform during the interview; Mr Speaker, it is for the above reason that the current Director was selected, recommended for appointment ii) Why was the current Director of Human Resources and finally appointed even though he barely made employed in spite of the fact that he did not meet the seven (7) years required. He went through the the required seven (7) years experience and the assessment process as aforementioned and was found Assessment Centre had clearly indicated that the to be a sufficient fit for the job of Director, Human applicant did not have the requisite competencies Resources. It may please you Sir to know that the to be able to adequately deliver quality service at incumbent Director was in his former job at Botswana the University of Botswana; and Savings Bank, Head of Human Resources for a period of iii) what salary (including allowances) was the 6 years and some months, having been Head of Human current Director offered and whether that is the Resources in other organisations, namely; Botswana normal entry point for the post; if not, why was Agricultural Marketing Board and De Beers Prospecting he employed at a higher notch. (Botswana). During the period he was Human Resources head at Botswana Savings Bank, he had also served as ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND Acting Deputy CEO (Support Services) for almost 2 SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): years. At this level, he operated at much higher than the Mr Speaker, applicants for the position of Director, one we were selecting for. It was for this reason that Human Resources in respect of vacancy no. HR although the University could see that he had slightly 1/2007 were nineteen (19). None of the applicants met lesser years than the required 7 years, he nonetheless the minimum time requirement. Most had either no or had good exposure to executive management. insufficient experience while a few, additionally, did not have relevant training. Mr Speaker, concerned that The Director was recruited at the top notch of Band it had taken three years to fill the position of Director, 8 and was given a 30 per cent supplementation to his Human Resources without success since it was last salary consistent with the supplementation policy of the vacated, the Finance and Administration Divisional University of Botswana. This policy recognises that the

Hansard No 163 Part 4 41 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

labour market sometimes makes it difficult to recruit MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND personnel that would certainly help the University while WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Mr the prevailing pay regime would not accommodate them. Speaker, Botswana Government first acquired shares In conclusion, he, for example, was better off in total in De Beers on 30th July 1987. The shareholding was package at his previous organisations than would have by virtue of Botswana Government being a 50 per cent ordinarily been the case at the University of Botswana shareholder of Debswana which purchased the shares where we required his services. Thank you. in De Beers.

REVENUE STREAMS FOR RURAL COUNCILS In 2001 Botswana Government Shareholding changed OUTSIDE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT as Debswana increased its shareholding by acquiring 10 per cent direct shareholding and a further 5 per MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked cent indirect shareholding in De Beers. The indirect the Minister of Local Government:- shareholding arose from Debswana’s 11.1 per cent i) what the top 5 revenue streams for rural Councils shareholding in a subsidiary of the Oppenhiemer are outside Central Government; investment company Central Holding. In 2004 Botswana shareholding increased to 15 per cent in De ii) what the percentage contribution is of these revenue Beers. Thank you Mr Speaker. streams to the overall revenue portfolio; and REASONS WHY THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN iii) what efforts has his Ministry made to build the BOTSWANA GOVERNMENT AND DE BEERS capacity of Councils in this area. CANNOT BE ACCESSED BY MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Thank MR D. SALESHANDO (GABORONE CENTRAL): you Mr Speaker. The top 5 revenue streams for rural asked the Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water councils outside Central Government are; water Resources why the agreement between the Botswana connection and consumption, staff housing rent, trade Government and De Beers cannot be accessed by licenses, Matimela sales and sewerage connection and Members of Parliament. maintenance fees. MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND The percentage contribution of these revenue streams WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Mr is 60 per cent to the overall Council own source Speaker agreements between the Government of revenue portfolio. This does not include the Revenue Botswana and De Beers or any other mining company Support Grant from Central Government. For the are commercially sensitive. Disclosure of the contents benefit of the Honourable Member, own source of of the agreements would place the Government of revenue contributes only 8 per cent of the total budget Botswana at a disadvantage as it would restrict the of rural Councils. space within which Government would negotiate other mining agreements. In order to ensure that Government Mr Speaker, my Ministry continues to search for obtains agreements that are most beneficial for potential sources of revenue for local authorities to Botswana, it is preferable that negotiations are treated widen their revenue base. In 2004 the Local Government on a case by case basis. Disclosure would compromise (District Councils) Act was amended to empower that position. District Councils to levy certain fees and charges without reference for approval by the Ministry. Mr Speaker, since such agreements invariably contain non disclosure provisions which if violated would As of now, my Ministry is working on the modalities of result in litigation, disclosure of such contents would extending property rates to the rural areas. Thank you. also put Government at peril of legal suit.

THE DATE WHEN BOTSWANA GOVERNMENT It is for these reasons that it is more prudent than FIRST ACQUIRED SHARES IN DE BEERS possible not to make the agreements between De Beers MR D. SALESHANDO (GABORONE CENTRAL): and Government available to Members of Parliament. asked the Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water But I have inquired, given the fact that we are not in Resources to state the date when the Botswana the business of undue confidential, I have inquired on Government first acquired shares in De Beers and international best practice. Thank you Mr Speaker. explain how the Government shareholding has changed PRESENTATION OF GOVERNMENT BILL over the years to the present level.

42 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

The following Bill was presented and read the first gore e seka ya tsewa segolo jang fa o leba gore re sa le time: re dira VAT mo Botswana ka 2002. Le nako ya dilo e kete di re siametse, golo gongwe re ka bo re sa le re e SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION oketsa ka dinako tseo, re ne ra seka ra e oketsa. Re ne (2008/2009) BILL, 2010 (NO. 4 OF 2010) ra neela Batswana nako ya go tlhabiwa ke phefo gore (Minister of Finance and Development Planning) dilo di nne di ba siamele, ba akole VAT ya 10%, re sa e oketse, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Second Reading – later date. E bile gape ke tla ke mo rolela hutshe Tona gore, e VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN rile ka dinako tsa go le bokete mo Batswaneng ba ba RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 theogelang mme ba sena dikamogelo dipe tse di kaekae, a ntsha molao o o ba ntshang mo dituelong tsa lekgetho Resolution le go tweng income tax. O ne a ntsha ba dituelo tse di ka (Resumed Debate) fa tlase ga P2, 500. E ne e le sesupo sa tshekatshekelo ya Batswana ba ba sa amogeleng madi ape a a kaekae, MR SPEAKER: The debate on this resolution a a ka ba tlodisang melatswana mo botshelong. Ke leba is resuming today. When we adjourned yesterday selo seo e le tshekatshekelo ya setshaba Motsamaisa evening, Honourable Dumelang Saleshando was on Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. E bile ke batla gape ke re, ke the floor. Honourable Member, please proceed. ntse ke ene ke yo. E re go le bokete a oketsa...

MR D. SALESHANDO (GABORONE CENTRAL): MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND Ke a leboga Mr Speaker. Ke feditse. WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Clarification Mr Speaker. Ke ne ke re a ke utlwile MINISTER OF HEALTH (REV. DR. Mokaulengwe sentle. Fa e le gore o bua ka threshold, SEAKGOSING): Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa a o ne a re P2, 500 kana P25, 000? Ke ne ke batla go Palamente, ke a go leboga mong wa me. Ke tswa tlhaloganya ka gore nna threshold before we go to the kwa kgaolong ya Kweneng South e e leng nngwe ya P30, 000, e ne e le P25, 000. Ke raya fela gore ga ke a dikgaolo tse di nang le letlhoko le letona fela thata mo utlwa sentle gore palo ya P2, 500 e amana le eng? la didirisiwa tsa mefuta e mentsi. Re tlhoka a senior Ke a leboga. secondary school le ditsela kwa kgaolong eo. Re eletsa e kete le rona re ne re ka bona sepatela se se REV. DR. SEAKGOSING: Palo ya P2, 500 e amana golwanyane, se se ka lekanang baagi botlhe ba kgaolo le the P30, 000, e e leng the current one. Jaanong jaaka eo. Ka e bile re se dirisa le dikgaolo tse dingwe tse ke bua gape ke re... pedi, jaaka kgaolo ya ngwana wa ga mmangwane fa, kgaolo ya ga Rre Masisi. Re eletsa e kete re ka bo re MR KEDIKILWE: Point of clarification again, na le matlo a mapodise Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa pardon me Honourable Speaker. Ga ke itse gore a re Palamente, ka ba na le mathata a mantsi, ga ba na fa ba utlwana sentle. Ke gore P2, 500 ga e ka ke ya amana robalang teng. Re eletsa e kete the Vocational Training le P30,000 ka gore se ke se gakologelwang ke gore, re College e re saleng re e solofediwa dingwaga tse dintsi simolotse kwa bathong ba ba amogelang P25,000 le go tse di fetileng. Re ne re ka bona madi, kana goromente ya kwa tlase. Ba ne ba sa duedisiwe lekgetho. E rile fa o ne a ka bona madi a e aga, e bile re eletsa jalo. Re re tswa foo, ra bo re ya kwa go P30, 000. Batho ba ba eletsa e kete le rona re ka bo re na le dipompo ka fa amogelang madi a gompieno, ke bone ba ba sa dueleng tlase ga lefatshe, tse di ka gogang metsi a a leswe le lekgetho. Ke gone fa ke neng ke batla go utlwa gore, a didirisiwa tsotlhe tsa toilets, a ya go latlhelwa kwa e ka bo e le go tsietsega ga leleme fela fa a re P2, 500, mafelong a go latlhelwang leswe le le ntseng jalo instead of P25, 000. Kana ke nna ke sa utlweng gore teng. Mme ga go kgonege. E bile re a tlhaloganya kwa tota o raya eng. kgaolong ya me gore, dilo tse e tla a re puso nako e REV. DR. SEAKGOSING: Se ke se buang ke P2, 500 bonang madi, fela jaaka Batswana ba bangwe, re tla a ka kgwedi, yo e leng P30, 000 per annum. That is why di bona. Ke tsholofelo le tumelo ya rona. I keep on saying P30, 000 yo e leng gore you divide it Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, e re ntswa go by 12, it gives you P2, 500. Ke sone se ke buang ka ga ntse jalo, ke ema fano go ema nokeng Minister ka mafoko sone, Tona. a gagwe a a re neetseng maabane mo Palamenteng Jaanong ke ne ke bua gape ka gore bagaetsho, motlha e, mabapi le koketso ya 2 per cent ya VAT. Ke e ema o tlile o re ka sekang ra bo ra o itlhokomolosa. Mpuru nokeng ke sa etle ke okaoka ke re, ke kgato e e siameng. o faretswe, motsetsi o ja ka letsogo. E tsentse tlhako Ke kgato e go senang gore go ne go ka dirwa jang gape

Hansard No 163 Part 4 43 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

kgamelong. Kana fa go nna jaana, go raya wena o le REV. DR. SEAKGOSING. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo, Motswana gore go tlile nako e o tshwanetseng o tsenye fa ke re mpuru o faretswe, ke bo ke re go tlile motlha wa lebogo mo kgwatlheng. O le tsenyetse kwa botennyeng go ikanapa, ke raya re ikanapa rotlhe re le Batswana, go ya go leka go ipoloka ka motlha wa mpatlisetse, go sa kgathalesege gore ofe ke mang. E bile ke ba ke betsho. Re mo motlheng o o bokete, o e leng gore le supa fa gore, bone ba a reng ke badiri ba Mokaulengwe fa re ka leka go ipodulatsa jang, ga go na ka fa re tla wa me Motlotlegi a buang ka ga bone, ba a reng ke a tswelelang ka teng fa re sa ikanape. Ke sone se o babereki, ke bone ba ke buang ka ga P30,000 per bonang ke ema ke re, le fa mme kgaolo e e nthomileng annum. Ke re, Minister o ba ntshitse mo go dueleng fano e na letlhoko la dilo tse di kanakana, mme ke emela lekgetho. Fa ba bangwe bone ba le duela, bone ga ba gore ke eme Tona nokeng gore, 2 per cent yo re buang duele, go raya gore ba tsaya sekidi sa bone sa madi se ka ga gagwe, a bewe fa godimo ga lesome (10%). Re le mmogo. oketse, e tle e re gongwe re tle re bone matsana a a ka re tlodisang melatswana ka moso. Fa re sa dire jalo, di Tota kgang e tona e ke lelang ka yone, ke ba ba sa tla a pala di le dintsi. boneng sepe gotlhelele. Ke gone fa nna selelo sa me se tletseng teng foo. Ke sa reye gore ba ga ba molato. Bagaetsho, re tshwanetse re reke melemo mo Jaaka a bua Motlotlegi, ee, ga re ka ke ra lekana, dikokelong. Re tshwanetse re age clinic le dikokelo. bagaetsho. Mohiri ga a ise a ko a lekane le mohiriwa Dilo di dintsi tse re tshwanetseng re di dire. Fa re ka wa gagwe. Ka jalo, go a tshwanela e bile go tla a nna seka ra ikanapa, ga re ka ke ra kgona dilo tse. Re le go nna jalo gore go nne le dipharologano. Ke ne ke bua Batswana, re le lefatshe la Botswana, re tswa kwa re ka gore puso e ka bo... tswang teng, re ntse re na le ba ga rona ba ba re thusang fale le fale. Ba re fa dithuso tsa madi le tse e seng madi MR MMOLOTSI: Clarification. Motlotlegi Tona o tse di farologanyeng. Dikole dingwe tsa tsone re ka di bua ka gore o leboga gore Tona a bo a ne a seka a bitsa ka maina, re di agile ka madi a dikadimo kana a fokotsa madi a badirelapuso, gore a kgone gore bogolo dimpho tse di tswang mo bakaulengweng ba rona. Re a tle a tseye kwa VAT. O tswelela a tlhalosa mabaka umaka clinics, ditsela le tsele le tsele. A mme a go tla a. Jaanong ke ne ke re ke botse Tona gore a mme o a bo go se botlhale gore e re le rona di tshelepaganye tlhaloganya gore badirelapuso ba a buang ka bone, jaaka di tshelepaganye jaana, re ikanape, re itse gore o bua ka batho ba ba tseneng dikole, ba e leng gore ga re direle ope gape, go itirela rona. ba kgona go tlhaloganya sengwe le sengwe, gape le matlho a bone a a bona? Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo, babereki ba rona ba puso, ga ke batle go ganela. Go botlhoko mo go bone gore re bo REV. DR. SEAKGOSING: Ke a tlhaloganya batho re sa ba okeletsa dituelo. Kana go ne go le gobedi mo ba Motlotlegi a buang ka ga bone, ba tsene dikole e pusong gore, gore, re bone madi a re a buang a P700 bile ke a tlhaloganya gore ba a bona. million; tota ke re dire jang? A ke re fokotse dituelo Se ke batlang go digela ka sone Motsamaisa tsa badirelapuso ka fa re neng re ka di fokotsa ka teng, Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ka gore tota ga ke batle re ka bo re a bonye gongwe e bile ra bo ra bona a a go bua ka boleele, gore ke neele Bakaulengwe le fetang ao. Kana a ke re di lese jaaka di ntse dituelo tse, bone ba bue. Ka gore tota ke emela go ema nokeng re ye go ikanapa golo gongwe gore re ba lese, re seka Mokaulengwe. Ka bokhutshwane jotlhe, P700 million ra ba ketefaletsa botshelo go feta jaaka bo le bokete yo re solofelang gore 2% e ka re mo neela, re thusege mo go bone. Re ne ra bona gore botoka jotlhe ke re mmone. Ditlhabololo tse re eletsang go nna le tsone, gore a re ba lese ka se ba ntseng ba se amogela. Golo re di kgone. E bile ke eletsa e kete re ka kgona gore re gongwe jaanong go eme rona re le setshaba, re yeng go bue kgang e e fele. E tle e re Moranang a rogwa, e bo ikanapa rotlhe. Ke bo ke rolela Tona hutshe fa ke re, e le gore ke molao o rotlhe re tla a bong re simolola go kana o dirile sentle. O lemogile gore Batswana ba na le ikanapa mo Ntlong e le kwa ntle. Re ikanapela go neela mathata. Go na le dijo tse re di jang re le bantsi. Tona madi a P700 million ka bonya ka bonya kgwedi le MR NSHIMWE: Point of clarification. Thank you Mr kgwedi. Gore e tle e re ka lebaka le a ka eletsang go a Speaker. A mme Tona o ka re tlhalosetsa gore in his dirisa ka lone, a bo a le teng. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo, comparison, is he comparing a farmer with a worker ba bantsi fano, ba batla go bua, mma ke eme fa. mo koketsong e ya VAT le salary increment? Ka gore MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): somebody kwa gae yo o sa amogeleng kgwedi le kgwedi Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente mme a patelesega go reka mo lebentleleng ka VAT e, gore le nna o bo o nneetse sebaka sa gore ke tsene mo a o mo tshwantshanya le mmereki yo o amogelang kgannyeng e. kgwedi le kgwedi?

44 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

Rraetsho, ke tsaya gore maloba fa re ne re le mo itsholelo e se na go nna e boela, e bo e le gone gongwe dikgannyeng tsa kgaoganyo ya madi, kgang ya me e ne re ka akanyang gore re ka gagamatsa security kwa e tlhamaletse. Mme le letsatsi leno, ga e na go fapoga State House ka tsela e e ntseng jang. Re lebile gore gope ka gore ga ke motho yo ke a tleng ke bue mafoko kana re na le setshaba se re se emetseng. Setshaba se se a e tla a reng ka moso, ke tsoge ke a fetogetse. 12 per welang mo isong, se se sotlegang, se e leng gore sone cent yo e leng gore Batswana ba tla a bo ba simolola go le yone itshireletso e e nnyennyanenyana tota ga se na mo kgethisiwa, ke santse ke dumela gore re le puso, go nayo. Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, ke tsaya gore priorities ne go na le ditsela tse dintsi tse re neng re ka mo tila ka tsa rona, ke tsone tse di dirang gore gompieno e bo e tsone. Ke sa ntse ke tshwenyega thata gore ga ke bone le gore ra re re oketse lekgetho kwa Batswaneng ba e mabaka a matonatona a a dirileng gore re oketse VAT. leng gore ba a dira ba bangwe ga ba dire. E le gore go na le fa e leng gore priorities tsa rona o kare ga re di tshware sentle teng. The unfortunate thing about tax ke gore e itaya mongwe le mongwe ka go lekana. Ke sone se se Ke ne ka tlhalosa maloba fa ke ne ke bua mo utlwisang botlhoko. Ka gore, motsadi wa me yo o kwa Budget Speech ke re, goromente o okeditse palo ya Francistown yo o sa direng, yo e leng gore o nna a Makhanselara a a itlhophetsweng. Makhanselara a, akantse fela gore ke tla a romelelwa ke mang madi, ke ne ka ba tlhalosa gore le fa ba ne ba seyo, go ne lekgetho la 12 per cent la VAT le ya go mmabalela. go sena pharologanyo epe e e neng e ka nna teng mo Ka lebaka la gore le tsaya 12 per cent from nothing. ditsamaisong tsa puso. Ka lebaka la gore tse ba tlang Ga a na sepe, mme go raya gore lone le tswelela ka ka tsone, ba ba ntseng ba le mo dikhanseleng, ba ba go goga fela. Therefore, go raya gore Batswana are tlhophilweng ke setshaba, ba na le tsone. Ka tsela e always going to be in the negative because of seemo sa e ntseng jalo, go tsaya madi a a kanakana, re bo re a go oketsa VAT ya rona. tshela mo bathong ba, ke go tshamekisa madi a e leng gore gompieno, re ka bo re sa bue ka 2 per cent. Ka Re na le mathata a gore, mo nakong ya gompieno, dingwe gore re ka bo re na le one a, a e leng gore kgwedi le tse re ka bong re di leba ga re di lebe. For example, kgwedi, re a neela batho ba le 113, ba e leng gore ga maloba fa Ministries di ntse di bega dikopo tsa madi re tlhaloganya gore gatwe ba dira eng mo tsamaisong tsa bone ka bongwe ka bongwe, bontsi jwa bone go ne ya puso ya gompieno. Tota le one Mapalamente a a go na le fa e leng gore gatwe go ya go rekiwa ‘fleet’ ya itlhophetsweng, ke tsaya gore le fa a ne a sa itlhophelwa, dikoloi. Mo nakong ya gompieno, re tlhaloganya gore tsamaiso ya puso e ne e ka seke ya tsena mo mathateng Matona le Mathusa Tona, ba tsamaya ka dikoloi tse pedi ka gope. Ka lebaka la gore ke na le tsholofelo e ntsi mongwe le mongwe wa bone. Jaanong mo nakong e e e bile ke na le tlotlo e ntsi mo Mapalamenteng a a ntseng jaana, fa e ne e le gore we set our priorities right, tlhophilweng ke setshaba. Ke lebile dikitsokitso tse re ka bo re re nnyaa, mme gongwe re tseye Prado tse ba nang le tsone, tse e leng gore setshaba se ne se ba tlhano fela, e le tse e leng gore Matona ba tla a di kopa tlhopha se ba lebile gore nnyaa, ba le fa e ka re ba tsena fa ba ya kwa dikgaolong tse e leng gore ga ba kgone go kwa pele Tautona a ba okeletsa maemo, ga go ka ke ga fitlha kwa go tsone ka dikoloi tse dintsho. Tse dingwe tse nna thona. Ke tsaya gore le bone ka lebaka la gore re di ntsintsi, di bo di isiwa kwa maphateng a e leng gore mo tsamaisong e e thata e lefatshe le senang madi, fa re gompieno gatwe ba ya go reka dikoloi ka madi a mantsi. ne re sa itlhophela Mapalamente a mane, tsamaiso ya E bo e le gore madi one a, a e leng gore a ka bo a ne a puso e ka bo e tshwana fela. Re ka bo re bolokile madi ile go reka dikoloi, a isiwa kwa deficit. Gore re seka ra a e leng gore kgwedi le kgwedi a ya kwa go bone. patikesega gore re ye go nna re tlopola kwa Batswaneng ba e leng gore le bone manokonoko a itsholelo, a mo Ke ne ka tlhalosa le maloba gape gore priorities tsa go bone. Ga ke kgone go tlhaloganya gore ke eng Tona rona, ga re di sekaseke sentle. Tona o ne a kopa madi a a tshwanelwa ke gore a bo a dikologilwe ke dikoloi tse approximately P5 million, e le gore gatwe P5 million o pedi nako le nako, mme e le gore ga a ka ke a di palama ya go dira barracks kwa State House. tsotlhe nako e le nngwe fela.

Mme ke tshwenyega gore P5 million yo fa a ya go Ke dumela gore fa dikoloi tse dingwe di ka tsewa dira barracks kwa State House, mme re lela ka madi, tsa isiwa kwa maphateng a gotweng a ya go rekelwa ga go re eme sentle re le puso. Ka lebaka la gore, re dikoloi, dikoloi tse di ya go dira tiro e ntle. Ka gore, fa tlhaloganya gore boTautona ba bararo ba ntlha, ba ntse Tona a sa dirise e nngwe, e eme fela kwa e emeng teng, mo State House se, mme ga go ise go nne le tshosetso ga e na tiro. Mme maphata a ne a ka nna a e fapaanela. matshelo epe mo go bone fa ba ne ba le mo go sone. Ya re nako e itsholelo e boelang, e bo e le gore Matona Ga ke tseye gore gompieno re ka palelwa ke go ema jaanong a rekelwa dikoloi tse pedi gape, ba tlhola ba gore itsholelo e boele mo seemong se se botoka. E re fa beile e nngwe ba tsamaya ka e nngwe.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 45 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le fa e le tse tharo. MR MMOLOTSI: Ke lebogela gore e bo e le gore Matona ba emisitswe go tsamaya le bahumagadi ba MR MMOLOTSI: Le fa e le tse tharo, fa itsholelo bone ka gore nna e bile go a ntsietsa gore ba ne ba e setse e boetse, ke tsaya gore we can afford luxuries tsamaela eng le bone. tse re di batlang. But gompieno, we have to sacrifice. Jaaka gompieno jaana rona re le Mapalamente, ga re na HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… dikoloi. Ke dirisa ya me fela, sacrificinggore Batswana ba tshele sentle. Matona one a tsere tse pedi mme go MR MMOLOTSI: Ke ne ke ise ke akanye gore ke ka siame fela. So, ka tsela e e ntseng jalo bagaetsho, nna tsamaya le wa me ka gore, tota ga e ka ke ya re lefatshe ke ne ke tsaya gore re tshwanelwa ke gore pele ga re le le mo mathateng, ke bo ke tsaya mohumagadi wa me lebelela kwa go yang go kokonela Batswana thata, re ke tsamaya le ene. Le gone o tla a ntiya go bereka. tshwanelwa ke gore re lebelele mo go rona. Gore mme Kgang ya me fela ke gore, ke lebogela gore e bo e le re ka fokotsa fa kae gore re leke go tila seemo se e leng gore puso e dirile jalo, ya emisa gore go tsamaiwe le gore re ya go bolaya Batswana ba ba neng ba re tlhopha. batho ba go neng go ntse go tsamaiwa le bone. Ka gore E bo e le gore re ba tsenya mo matshelong a a kwa tlase ke selo se se sa siamang. E bile ke dumalana le wena tlase le go feta ka nako e ba neng ba re tlhopha. Rraetsho gore dikoloi tsa Station Wagon di beilwe kwa MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND CTO, mme di beetswe lona gore di seka tsa kgongwa SECURITY (MR D. R. SERETSE): Ke kopa tlhaloso. kgongwa ke batho, ka gore e tla a tloga e re le di batla, Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. e bo e le gore ga di yo. Ke rile as a solution to this Ke ne ke kopa Mokaulengwe fa gore, a Motlotlegi problem, I suggest that go tsewe dikoloi le fa di ka o tlhaloganya gore Matona a a buang ka one a re ba nna five tse di tla a bewang foo gotwe nnyaa, “tse ke na le dikoloi di le pedi, Botswana a le kana kana a tsa Matona,” gore tse dingwe tse di setseng, di ye kwa farologana ka terrain. E ka nna ya re letsatsi leno ka bo maphateng a a tshwanelwang ke gore mo budget e go ke le mo Gaborone, ka moso go bo gotwe, “tsamaya o buiwang ka yone e, a ye go reka dikoloi tse di sha e le ye kwa go nang le motlhaba teng.” Mme jaanong fa go a temporary measure fa re santse re le mo mathateng. tualo, o tshwanetse gore e re o le Tona, o bo o ka kgona Mme e re fa re tswa mo mathateng, re bo re rekela go tsena mo koloing ka bofefo o tsamaye. Matona gape dikoloi tsa bone, re ka nna ra oketsa ra ba rekela tse four jaanong, e le gore re bona gore we are Gape, a Mokaulengwe o tlhaloganya gore dikoloi tse now living in the land of plenty. But for now tota we tsa Station Wagon tse di leng teng, di kwa Central cannot afford luxuries. Transport Organisation (CTO), ga se tsa Matona. Fa Tona a e tlhoka, o e tsaya kwa CTO. Ga di a abelwa Ke ne ke re Tona, mabaka a gore ke bone go le bokete Ministries. A o kile wa leka go batlisisa dilo tse pele. gore ke tle ke dumalane le two per cent yo o okediwang, Le Matona gape go ne go ntse go tsamaiwa first class re ke gore gongwe ga re a sekaseka fa re ka nnang re ntse santse re le fa re neng re le teng. Gompieno re fologetse re fokotsa teng gore re leke go tshaba seemo se e leng kwa tlase ka ntlha ya go lemoga gore fa go nang le gore gore Batswana ba ya go kokonelwa. Mme e le gore ba re fokotse teng, re tshwanetse gore re fokotse. A dilo kokonelwa jaana rona ba ba re tlhophileng re le mo tse naare gone le a tle le ntse le di leba? monateng o o gakgamatsang.

Le go tswela kwa ntle go tsamaya thata, re fokoditse; gore Go tshwana le kgang ya gore re dule kwa class ya a dilo tse ga le bone e le cost savings, tse e leng gore tota mankalengkaleng mo difofaneng, re tsene mo go e e e re leka mo go tsone. Re ne re ntse re tshwanetse gore e re latelang. Ke dumela gore sefofane se goroga nako e le dingwaga tse pedi bahumagadi le wena o le Mopalamente, nngwe fela kwa se yang teng. Tota le fa re ka ya kwa mohumagadi wa gago a kgone gore ka nako… economy, I do not think there is anything wrong with that. Because kwa ke neng ke bereka teng, go ne go na MR SPEAKER: It appears to be a point of debate now le gore ke ka dira jalo. Mme fa ke lebile itsholelo ya Honourable Minister. kompone, ke ne ke tshwanelwa ke to scale down mo costs ka lebaka la gore kompone e ne e tshwanelwa ke MR D. R. SERETSE: Clarification. Jaanong mme gore e tshele. le wena ga o sa tlhola o tsamaya le mohumagadi, le rona ga re sa tlhola re tsamaya le bahumagadi ba rona. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, I Maiteko a dirwa ka tsela e e ntseng jaana. Fa le bua, just want to bring to the attention of the Member holding le tloga jaanong le tlatsa tlatsa mo e kete one Matona the floor but not necessarily him alone, to all of us in ao ke batho ba ba se nang kelelelo, ba ba se nang the august House what Standing Order 46 (1) says. This boammaaruri, mme tota e se selo sa boammaaruri. time I have decided not to recall it from my medulla

46 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) oblongata as I always do, I am going to read it. And it per cent. Ba ya go reka ka eng dilo tse e leng gore ba has this to say, “A Member shall restrict his observations aga ka tsone? to the subject under discussion and shall not introduce matters irrelevant to that subject”. The subject on Ga ke eme foo Rraetsho. Gompieno fa o batla go ya today’s chapter is very simple and straight forward, and go reka ntlo, badirelapuso ba ba bo C4, C3 grades, le I would pray and plead with the Honourable Member ba D4 tota, kana fa gotwe o ya go reka ntlo, malatsing for Francistown South, more so that he is my personal a, a two bedroomed, not a beautiful house, ya two friend and younger brother, to restrict himself to what bedrooms, o ya go e reka ka boP300,000. Fa o oketsa the chapter on the table requires. Honourable Member, VAT, ngwana yoo, yo e leng gore o mo C4 o batla go and I know you are highly able to do that. reka ntlo ya P300,000 o tlhokafala gore a duele VAT P32,000 kwa pele gore o tle o kgone gore o reke ntlo MR MMOLOTSI: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo eo e le VAT fela. Kgang e e neng e buiwa ke Tautona tsa Palamente. Ke ne ke bona o kare ke relevant mo go maloba le e re e buang gompieno, di nyalana fa kae? feteletseng. Mme ka wa rialo Rara, ke tla a leka go tswa mo go yone, mme gone kgang ke yone e. Ka tsela e ntseng jalo, ka re tota two per cent yo bagaetsho, o a ntshwenya ka gore 12 per cent o ya go In one of my lower primary classes, ke ne ka bolelelwa nna montsi. Re ya go nna le badirelapuso ba ba nnang ke morutabana gore, go na le mo go bidiwang gotwe mo ntlong a a hirisitsweng dingwaga tsotlhe. Fa a setse three basic needs of life. Jaanong Tona o bua thata ka a tloga a retire jaanong, madi a retirement ke one a a dijo tse e leng gore gatwe have been exempted from tla a bong a a lebile ka leitlho le lehibidu gore a ye VAT, e leng mabele le tse dingwe. I am not talking go kgona go aga ntlo ka one e le gore go padile, o about wants here, I am talking about needs. Needs padisitswe go reka le go aga ntlo ke VAT. kwa ntle ga gore ba ntse ba a di oketsa malatsing a, ba tsentse tse dingwe, mme re ne re itse, le gompieno Kana e bile fa VAT e gotwe o kgona go e kolota o tla a e re a itse gore dijo, shelter, diaparo ke dingwe tsa duela kwa morago, go ka bo go le botoka. Fa o tsamaya o needs. Mme fa e le gore when we justify gore ke eng re re ke reka ntlo ya Botswana Housing Corporation (BHC), okeditse VAT, re tla a bo re bua ka kgang ya gore dijo gatwe VAT kwa pele motho kwa morago. Jaanong dilo dingwe have been exempted. Kana a re tlhaloganyeng tse bagaetsho, a re sekang ra di lebelela ka tsela e e ntseng gore motho ga a tlhoke dijo fela go tshela. Batho ba jalo, re re nnyaa, two per cent ga se sepe. ba kwa kgaolong ya me, ba tlhoka le go reka semente Maloba kwa Lephateng la Thuto, ke ne ke le kwa gore ba kgone go aga matlo a bone, but cement has not dikoleng tsa Francistown, ke di etela thata. Ga ke re ba been exempted from VAT. Ba tlhoka go reka building bangwe ke ne ke ruta le bone, ba ne ba mpolelela gore materials, but all these things have not been exempted gatwe ba simolole go apara ka tsela nngwe. Kana go raya from VAT. Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, fa e le gore e ya gore jaanong badirelapuso ba barutabana ba ya go fetola gore re lebelela kgang e, re bo re itebaganya fela le wardrobes tsa bone, mme diaparo di na le VAT. Mongwe mabele le dinawa, re tla a bo re sa e lebe sentle ka gore, le mongwe yo o tsenang mo lebentleleng, ba dikgaolo people are being impoverished by the high prices ya tsa rona ba ya go duela VAT. I am saying this because dilo tsa kago. Mme ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, fa re oketsa we cannot restrict argument ya rona mo go reng we have ka two per cent yo, go raya gore semente se e leng gore exempted dijo dingwe, re itebatsa gore ga se dijo fela tse already ga se kgonagale kwa toropong ya Francistown, e leng gore go kgethisiwa batho mo go tsone. se ya go golela kwa godimo. Batswana ba ya go aga ba tsere kae madi? Dilo tse di a tshwenya Motsamaisa HONOURABLE MEMBER: Tlhaloso. Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ka re go oketsa VAT, e tla MR MMOLOTSI: Ke a wela, ke tla a mo neela a bo e le go bolaya setshaba se se re tlhophileng. Ka Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ga se dijo lebaka la gore, gompieno jaana kwa kgaolong ya me, fela, so, re tlhaloganye gore fa re tla ka pampiri, list go na le plots tse di seng kana ka sepe, tse e leng gore ya dijo which we have exempted, Batswana ba tlhoka ga di a agiwa. Tse dingwe ba lekile go aga ba bo ba boroko. Mme boroko bo na le VAT as one of the needs ema fale maloba nako e ne cement se tura thata. Fa e le tsa botshelo jwa motho. Diaparo le dikobo tseo di na gore ra re re oketsa VAT ka two per cent, re ba bolaela le VAT. Fa re tswelela ka seemo se, batho ba ya go ruri. Re ya go nna le Batswana ba ba senang bonno. sotlega. Mma ke neele Tona yo ke mo ratang thata. Maloba His Excellency the President in his speech fa a MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND bula Palamente, o tlhalositse gore go ya go rotloediwa SECURITY (MR D.R. SERETSE): Ke a leboga Batswana go nna le bonno. Re ya go rotloetsa Batswana Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke ne ke kopa go nna le bonno jang? Fa e le gore re oketsa VAT to 12 boammaruri, ke re ke botse Mokaulengwe gore a o bua

Hansard No 163 Part 4 47 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

boammaruri fa a re VAT e duelwa kwa pele, pele ga o robalang masole, gongwe a bidiwa jalo. Fa e le gore ga ka duela sekoloto sa ntlo? Kana o bua ka se se kileng a bidiwe jalo, ke ne ke bua ka matlo a gotweng a ya go sa bo se diragala ka gore o kare mo bogompienong, agiwa ka approximately P5 million yo a neng a kopiwa VAT e duelwa fela e le part of the sekoloto. Just that maloba. Ga ke itse gore re ka a bitsa re re eng, mme fact gore o leke to clarify. gone ke matlo a go yang go nna masole.

MR MMOLOTSI: Thank you very much Rraetsho. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke kopa tlhaloso Mokaulengwe, ke rakgadiago. MR MAKOSHA: Further point of clarification. Ke a go leboga Motlotlegi go bo o mphile sebaka. Ke re MR MMOLOTSI: Ke ne ke ise ke fetse le ya ga Tona ke go botse foo gore wena jaanong ka fa o akantseng Rre Seretse ya VAT. Ya gore fa e le gore go setse go ka teng Motlotlegi, fa gotwe re na le sekoloto sa P12.1 fetogile gore jaanong o duela VAT le sekoloto nako e billion, ke raya e le deficit Rra, gore re tlhaelelwa ke le nngwe fela, the difference is the same anyway ka madi a a kanang ka 12.1 billion, wena mo kakanyong lebaka la gore, you still pay VAT. Jaanong, ke sone se ya gago ke gore mathata a re ka dira jang gore re seka e leng gore kgang ya me ke go duela VAT. And I am ra nna le one Motlotlegi? Amen. saying ga go a siama gore e re gompieno badirelapuso re buile maloba gore ga ba okelediwe madi, mme re bo MR MMOLOTSI: Mabaka a ke neng ka tlhopha go re tsweletse ka fa re re re ba okeletsa makgetho. This bua ka Setswana ke ne ke raya gore Rre Makosha a tle is because this thing erodes purchasing power ya bone a ntshware sentle. Ke rile fa ke simolola ke ala kgang le ya mongwe le mongwe fela yo e seng modirelapuso ya me, ke tlhalositse gore fa Makhanselara a ne a sa le yo o sa berekeng. So, ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, tota itlhophelwa, re ka bo re na le madi a re a beetseng kwa tsela nngwe le nngwe e re batlang go e baya ka teng, it thoko. Ke tlhalositse gore Tona maloba o ne a kopa will not convince me gore ke re go siame gore re oketse P5 million or approximately P5 million gore go ye go VAT ka two per cent. O ne o batlile go tlhalosa. dirwa barracks kwa State House. Madi a a ka bo a beetswe kwa thoko. Ke tlhalositse gore Matona, ba na MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS AND le dikoloi tse dintsi tse ba di dirisang. PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MS MOTSUMI): Ke a leboga Mokaulengwe. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa MR SPEAKER: You have made your point on that Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke ne ke re Mokaulengwe o issue Honourable Member, you are just being repetitive ne a bua ka P5 million yo a reng o tlhalosa sentle gore unnecessarily, please migrate to a new point. gongwe matlo a ga a bidiwe barracks. A a re tshwanelo MR MMOLOTSI: Ga ke re ke araba Motlotlegi ya ngwana yo o dirang tiro ya bosole e tshwanetse e tle Makosha Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa go idiwa fela ke gore ene a bo a tsaya gore ka gore ke Palamente. Le tla a tla le mo tlhalosetsa lona ba le a lesole ga a a tshwanelwa ke go nna le fa a nnang teng? tleng le bue le ene. MR MMOLOTSI: Ke gore nna ke ne ke rotloetsa gore Jaanong fa ke santse ke araba Tona, kana jaanong go gongwe ba ka bo ba ntheetsa sentle fela ka gore, nna ga raya gore Tona o batla to debate le nna. ke a re ngwana yoo ga a a tshwanelwa ke boroko. Ga ke ise ke re bana ba masole ga ba a tshwanela go agelwa MR D.R. SERETSE: Nnyaa, ke a leboga Motsamaisa matlo kwa State House. All I am saying ke gore, kwa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ga ke batle to debate ba ntseng ba le teng, a ba name ba ntse ba le koo. Ga ke Mokaulengwe. Kana dilo tse dingwe tse o tshwanetse re go raya gore masole a a tla a bo a ya go tsewa koo ka gore fa o di bua, tota re bua le setshaba. Re tshwanetse gore ke ne ka bala gotwe go tla a bo go nna masole a le re ba bolelele boammaruri, re seka ra tloga ra bua dilo bo60 gone kwa State House. Kgang ya me ke gore, a re tse e seng boammaruri. Setshaba sa tloga sa tsaya gore sekang ra nama re dirile matlo ao, a re ba tlogeleng ba Ntlo e ba dumela mo go yone, e bo e sa ba bolelele name ba ntse kwa ba neng ba ntse ba le teng. boammaruri. Jaanong, ke ne ke re ke correct fa mong wa me Mokaulengwe gore, ga go na barracks tse di HONOURABLE MEMBER: O raya jalo. agilweng kwa State House. Ga go na barracks, le ye MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members Please, go botsa gore barracks go tewa eng. Ga go na barracks he deserves the right to hold the floor. You shall have tsa masole tse di agilweng koo. your floor.

MR MMOLOTSI: Kana ke gore, may be ke ka tswa MR MMOLOTSI: Hey, o fitlhela Matona fa go buiwa ke sa kgone go bitsa ka leina la teng ka gore ga ke ise ke boammaruri ba tshwere bothata tota. Kgang ya me ke berekele koo, jaanong ga ke tlhaloganye terminology e gore, gompieno jaaka re ntse jaana, bana ba Motlotlegi e dirisiwang koo. Ke ne ke tsaya gore matlo otlhe a a Tona a buang ka bone, ba robala mo go eng? Gone

48 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) kwa ba neng ba ntse ba robala teng, a re nameng re it is less than the quality of the vehicle that I bought tshwere jalo. Ba robale teng go fitlhelela itsholelo ya for myself. Jaanong ke koloi fela e e leng gore even if rona e tsoga. Fa e sena go nna e tsoga, re bo re ka ba it was to be taken letsatsi leno e ya go bewa kwa CTO agela matlo gone kwa State House. Kgang ya me ke kgotsa ya neelwa maphata a mangwe, ga go re sepe ke tlhalositse gore nako e yotlhe go ntse go sena matlo ao e palama ka sewelo. Jaanong ka tsela e e ntseng jalo kwa State House mme it was business as usual. ke rotloetsa gore, sengwe sa dilo tse re ka di dirang go fokotsa costs gore re tle re kgone go nna mo seemong HONOURABLE MEMBER: Go ne go sa siama, that sa go ka dira gore Batswana ba seka ba ya go duela two is why ke eng? per cent yo, emisang dikoloi tseo tsa Mapalamente.

MR MMOLOTSI: No, I am saying it was business as Mo kgannyeng ya gore a batho ba Francistown South usual. Ke ne ke sa re go ne go siame. It was business ga ba tlhoke dikokelwana, ke tshwenngwa ke gore go as usual. Ke sone se e leng gore boTautona ba bararo bua Tona. Tona a re ka fa ke buang ka teng a ke raya have graduated mo State House, mme mo go tsone ga gore Batswana ba Francistown South ga ba tlhoke go ise go nne le mathata ape a re neng ra utlwa gotwe dikokelwana. I am not saying that, I am saying let us Tautona o tshoseditswe matshelo. Le mo nakong prioritise. Let us put our priorities right, gore e tle e ya gompieno ga re ise re utlwe gotwe Tautona wa re re tla re ema re re, nnyaa tota ga go na sepesepe se gompieno o tshoseditswe matshelo. Ka tsela e e ntseng re ka se dirang. Mongwe le mongwe a bo a bona gore, jalo ke ne ke re a re nameng re tshwere jalo. Ga ke no indeed tota puso e lekile gotlhe mo e ka go kgonang gane, ka re let us set our priorities right. ga go na sepe se ba ka se dirang. That is why ba tsenya ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TRADE AND VAT 2 per cent. As long as there is lavish spending that INDUSTRY (MR MOTOWANE): On a point of I see, I am not going to be convinced that this is the clarification Mr Speaker. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa time ya gore re oketse VAT ka 2 per cent. Palamente ke a leboga le Mokaulengwe wa Francistown When you interjected, ke ne ke santse ke tsena on a point South. Ke ne ke re a re tlhalosetse fa, ka sekai sa boTautona ya diaparo. Ka lebaka la gore kwa dikoleng, barutabana ba pele, Mapalamente a pele le bone dinako tseo ba ne gompieno ba a lela ba re ba teilwe gotwe ba tshwanelwa ba sa amogele se Mokaulengwe a se amogelang. A o ka ke go apara ka tsela e e rileng e e leng gore ba ne ba boela kwa mading ale a Mapalamente a ntlha? ntse ba sa apare ka yone. Ka bokhutshwanyane, se se Sa bobedi, Matona a puso a gotweng a palama dikoloi raya gore barutabana ba ya go tshwanelwa ke gore ba di le pedi ba di fapaanya, ene e le Mopalamente jaaka fetole wardrobes tsa bone. Fa ba fetola wardrobes tsa a tla a bo a tshaisa ka seven fa, ba tsena mo koloing e e bone, tseo on the list ya ga Tona ga di yo, e e supang khurumeditsweng e gongwe go ka tweng ke mmotorokara gore ...(interruption)... ke dife. o o manobonobo fa o e leba o le kwa Salajwe. Ke eng a ne MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS a sa kope gore di busediwe kwa morago, ba palame some DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): Ke vans kwa morago, ba tshaise ba theogele ka tsone. kopa tlhaloso Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke Sa bofelo ke botse Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa kopa gore ke tlhatlhelele Mokaulengwe gore ke buile le Palamente, naare he! batlhophi ba Francistown South barutabana gore ba lese go tla to classrooms ka t-shirts letlhoko la bone ke go reka cement fela le go aga matlo? gore morutabana a tle a farologane le bana ba sekole. Se A go agelwa clinics di bo di tsenngwa baoki, le dipilisi ke se ba reileng ke rile ba reke hempe e e mabogo maleele mo teng, ditsela, le dikole di bo di tsenngwa le barutabana ba bo ba senke thai. Ka ba ka ba bolelela gore di teng mo kwa Francistown South, a ga se dingwe tsa dilo tse Chinese shops ke P39.99. Ga go na wardrobe. batlhophi ba Francistown South ba di tlhokang? MR MMOLOTSI: Ke utlwa botlhoko tota fa e le MR MMOLOTSI: Tota nna fa gongwe ke a tshwenyega gore Tona o tswa go raya barutabana ba ba berekang mme le gale tota, kgang e clear Mr Speaker, gore ka bokete mo go kana, a re ba ye go reka hempe kwa Motlotlegi o bua ka dikoloi tsa Mapalamente tse di shops tsa Chinese. khurumeditsweng. Ke sa tswa go bua earlier on gore HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Laughter! ke dirisa ya me, e kwa ntle kwa. So, tsa Mapalamente le ka nna la di emisa ka lebaka la gore ra re rona batho MR MMOLOTSI: E nkutlwisa botlhoko thata kgang kwa dikgaolong tsa rona ba mo mathateng, ga ba ka e. Ka gore ke dumela gore fa e le gore puso e dumela ke ba kgona go duela two per cent. So, dikoloi tse re gore barutabana ba tshwanelwa ke go emisa go apara di pataganelang, ke pataganela ya me le Honourable dihempe tse di matsogo makhutshwane, and for the Makgalemele e e leng gore in value and even in quality record barutabana ga ba ye to the classroom ba apere

Hansard No 163 Part 4 49 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

t-shirts, never. I was a teacher for many years. Le mo I know the Honourable Member holding the floor is dingwageng tse tsotlhe tse ke neng ke se morutabana extra ordinarily brilliant when it comes to articulating I was visiting schools, ke bereka le barutabana on a matters, and I pray once more. daily basis. Ga go na barutabana bape ba ba yang kwa sekoleng ba apere t-shirts. Fa re dumela gore ba MR MMOLOTSI: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tshwanelwa ke gore ba reke dihempe tse di matsogo a tsa Palamente. Kgang ya me e mo go reng bagaetsho a maleele re tshwanelwa ke go bona gore re ka dira jang re lebeleleng pele, gore have we exhausted gotlhe kwa gore re ba neele madi kgotsa allowances tsa kapari. Ra e neng e le gore re ka tsaya teng pele ga re ka ya kwa re re batla go laola gore ba apere ka tsela e e ntseng setshabeng ra ya to haemorrhage them. Fa re ise re dire jang. Jaanong, gore re ba reye jalo e bo e le gore ra re jalo, go tlile go nketefalela thata gore ke dumalane. Ke re oketsa VAT ka 2 per cent. Ga go ka ke ga re thusa raya gore fa e le gore go santse go na le badiredi ba ka lebaka la gore P39 yo wa shirt ya maChina ga ba na rona ba ba sa ntseng ba tsaya dog allowances ba se na go mo kgona ka lebaka la VAT e e okeditsweng. Kgang dintsa. E bo e le gore motho o na le dog allowance ga a ya me ke eo. na ntsa, mme re tswelela ka gore re mo e neele. Re bo re re Motswana a duele 2 per cent. I find this thing very Fa ke boela kwa kgannyeng ya ga Tona ya salaries, difficult for me to comprehend. I would like gore... gore a ke raya gore Mapalamente nako ele ba ba neng ba amogela ka fa ba neng ba amogela ka teng, a le rona ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL re amogele ka tsela e e ntseng jalo. I think Rraetsho GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): On a point of o bapisa dilo tse di sa bapang gape di sa nyalane. Ke clarification Mr Speaker. I just want to know what is tsaya gore go basic to understand gore, ga e ka ke ya dog allowance and who gets it? re ke bua ka security le kago ya matlo go bo go buiwa MR MMOLOTSI: Ee ke gore ke ne ka bala mo ka salaries, ga se dilo dipe tse di nyalanang. Anyway le pampiring, a kere I do not know gore who gets what. Ke salary e le gore we feel gore e ntsi thata ya Mapalamente ne ka bala mo pampiring Tona mongwe quoted gotwe e e leng gore ga ke a bolo go e amogela dingwaga tse o ne a bua gore masole mangwe madi a bone a kwa di ntsi tse di fetileng. Le yone fa e le gore le bona go tlase ga dog allowance ya gagwe. Ke raya ke bala mo le botoka gore go itlhophelwe Makhanselara bone ba pampiring e kwadilwe jalo. Ke ne ke tsaya gore gongwe amogele sentle mme Mapalamente salaries tsa bone di go ka tswa go ntse jalo, kwa United Kingdom (UK). boele kwa tlase. Nnyaa, go molemo fela go ka tsamaya ka tsela e e ntseng jalo. Kgang ya me ga se salary ke HONOURABLE MEMBER: (Inaudible) priorities tsa rona. Gore a re direng gore di nne right. MR MMOLOTSI: Nnyaa, go ne gotwe ke Tona MR MASIMOLOLE: Ke kopa tlhaloso Mr Speaker. mongwe wa rona.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Masimolole, you have MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mmolotsi, please do not to wait to be called upon by the presiding officer. address side remarks. Address me.

MR MASIMOLOLE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa MR MMOLOTSI: Mma re tswe mo go ya dog Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke lebogela Mokaulengwe allowance, but the principle is the same. The principle gore a bo a mphile sebaka sa gore ke mo itse go is that, a re boneng gore mo e leng gore re ka nama re tsweledisa jaaka a ntse a tsamaya a bua sentle thata tshela go seyo ke go fe. Maikaelelo e le gore re leke thata. Nna Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ke a go tokafatsa seemo sa gore VAT e seka ya okediwa ka tshwenyega. Ke tshwenngwa ke gore selo sa ntlha o kile lebaka la gore, manokonoko a VAT mo setshabeng sa wa re o leka go tlisa batho mo seporong. Jaanong go setse rona, a ya go re tlhabisa ditlhong mo dingwageng tse go buiwa ka gore batho ba palame vans ka kwa morago. di tlang. Gore e re fa re bua ka kgang ya VAT, re bo Go buiwa dilo fela tse di very irrelevant to kgang e e re simolola re bua gore kwa mafatsheng a mangwe buiwang fano. Ke ne ke kopa gore a ko re bueng ka VAT VAT ke 14 kana 16 per cent. I think that argument re tlogeleng go pega batho dikoloi ka kwa morago. Ga is neither here nor there, ka lebaka la gore ka fa ba go na koloi epe e e manobonobo e Mapalamente ba e tshelang ka teng go farologanye. Itsholelo ya bone e dirisang, a re tsweng mo dilong tseo. Re lese go bua dilo farologanye le ya rona. Like Honourable Dumelang tse e leng gore le tla a tshegwa ke batho. Saleshando a letse a buile inequalities le tsone ga di tshwane. Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo ke tsaya gore eo MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! I could not agree more tota ga re a tshwanelwa ke gore re e advance. Se re with the Honourable Member for Mogoditshane. He tshwanelwang ke gore re se advance ke gore ra re 2 is actually re-echoing the ground upon which I stood per cent yo, o ya go re bolaela setshaba. a few minutes earlier, gore let us please be relevant.

50 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND Actually ba bangwe ba ne ba nthaya ba re, “Wynter DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR TIBONE): On a kgang e o neng o bua ka yone maloba ya Makhanselara point of clarification Mr Speaker. Thank you very much. a a itlhophetsweng ke kgang e tona, e bile re bona e le I seek this clarification very reluctantly. I feel I must ask gore bontsi jwa bone ba setse ba le public nuisance”. Re the Honourable Member on the floor whether he believes bala dipampiri ka bone ba le mo dikgotleng, ba bangwe that the levy or VAT is an instrument that should be part ba dira se. Re dumela gore kana gongwe melato e ba e of the finances of a government, just that principle, not dirang e, ba e dira ka lebaka la madi a, windfall e ba neng the level, the percentage, but just principle? If he does, ba sa e solofela. E e leng gore fa e ne e le gore e ka bo e whether he would say that it should remain at one level sa isiwa kwa go bone re ka bo re bua gompieno jaana e for an indefinite period of time? Thank you. le gore Tona ga a bue ka gore go okediwe VAT ka 2 per cent. Ba ne ba a fa dikai tse di ntsi, ke raya gore e bile MR MMOLOTSI: Tona o botsa potso e e siameng dikgang tse dingwe ke ne ke sa di itse tsa Makhanselara thata. Ke dumela gore lekgetho ke nngwe ya ditsela a e leng gore a hemahemisa puso gompieno, ka lebaka dingwe tse puso e ka itirelang madi ka yone. Go na le la ditiro tsa bone tse di duleng mo tseleng. E le gore pele dinako tse dingwe tse e leng gore puso e tshwanelwa ke ga ba tshwara madi a, e ne e le bana fela ba Modimo go sekaseka go bona gore a e ke nako e e siameng ya ba ba senang molato, ba ka seke ba raya ope sepe. Ever gore ke ka tsenya VAT. I am saying the principle ya VAT since windfall e tsena mo go bone, ba gaketse fela. e siame. Ke tshwenngwa ke gore the timing gompieno ga se yone. Ra re re mo economic recession. Re bua Ba bangwe gatwe the day before yesterday, ba ne ba ka gore badirelapuso ga ba a okelediwa madi and the tletse kgaolo e le gore ba re ba phutha dikarata tsa private sector is likely to follow suit, gore fa puso e sa Domkrag mo bathong. Re ipotsa gore a mme nngwe ya okeletsa badiredi ba yone madi, private sector le yone ditiro tsa nominated councillors ke go phutha dikarata ba ka nna ba felela ba sa okeletsa ba bone. Fa gongwe tsa Domkrag mo bathong nee? So tota fela re kgona go go sa reye gore ga ba a dira profitse le gore puso e setse bona le rona gore if we do not set our priorities right, e supile gore, nnyaa mme mo ngwageng o, ga go na re ya go nna le mathata re le puso a gore mo financial dikoketso. More so that this is the second year running year e e tlang, re tla a bo re boa re tla fa, re tla go kopa badirelapuso ba sa okelediwe madi. I am saying nako gore VAT e okediwe ka yet another 2 per cent mme re e, ke gana VAT gompieno, but fa e ne e ka tla after the sa okeletsa badirela puso madi. recovery ya itsholelo, I was going to be one of the first people to support gore 2 per cent a tsenngwe. For now JaanongRraetsho, nna tota kopo ya me ke gore Tona ka re ga ke dumele ka lebaka la gore the timing ya VAT, ga ke go neele 2 per cent, batho ba ke neng ke bua le is not the right one. I believe that we are haemorrhaging bone ke ba rerisa ka weekend kwa Francistown ga ba Batswana ba re tshelang le bone. dumalane le koketso ya VAT ya 2 per cent.

Go na le kgang e re buang gore Batswana le badirelapuso PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR ba a tlhaloganya gore nako e, re tshwanelwa ke go APPROXIMATELY 25 MINUTES oketsa madi ga go na sepe se sengwe se re ka se dirang. MR SPEAKER (MR MABILETSA): Order! Order! Ke ne ke kopane le Batswana ba le ba ntsi thata mo Honourable Members, please take your seats. I am weekend e. Bangwe ba bone e ne e le badirelapuso informed when the House adjourned for tea, Honourable ba maphata a a farologanyeng, ba bangwe e ne e le Wynter Mmolotsi was still holding the floor. maDomkrag fela a modimo ba ba tshwanang le nna. Ba nkopile gore ke kope bao ba ba reng ba a tlhaloganya, MR MMOLOTSI: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa gore ba boele mafoko a teng kwa morago, ka lebaka Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente mo maitseboeng a gompieno. la gore ba re bone ga go na ope yo o kileng a tla kwa Fa re ya kwa teeng, ke ne ke tlhalosa gore ke rerisantse go bone a ba rerisa. A ba botsa gore a le a tlhaloganya le batho. Ke ne ke na le maDomkrag a mantsi thata kana ga le tlhaloganye. Therefore ba Francistown bone le badirelapuso ka weekend. Ba ne ba nkopa gore ke ba re, fa e le gore bangwe ba reile mongwe ba re ba a tlhalosetse ba ba neng ba re ga ba na mathata le increase tlhaloganya gore 2 per cent yo o ka tsenngwa ga go na ya VAT a ba a tlhaloganya, gore bone kwa Francistown se se ka dirwang, ba re bone ga se bangwe ba bone. ga ba tlhaloganye. They feel gore dingwe di ka dirwa go Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, e ne e le molaetsa fela gore leka to avoid seemo sa tax. I was still on dikgang tse ke ke o tlise kwano. Ka gore ke ne ke ba boleletse gore reng gongwe re ka bo re ne ra itebaganya le tsone, gore kgang e e mo tafoleng ke ya VAT. Ba dumela gore a re re name mo nakong ya gompieno e e thata, re emisitse sekasekeng mo dilong tse dingwe re bone gore re ka go oketsa VAT. I know gore tse dingwe ke sources tse e seke re kgone go bona madi a a ka fokotsang deficit,go leng gore di tla a bo e le savings tse di nnyennyane. E na le gore re bo re tabogela kwa 2 per cent. re ntswa e le savings tse di nnyennyane when adding to

Hansard No 163 Part 4 51 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

dilo tse dingwe tse ke ntseng ke di bua, di ka re isa golo di lebetse, as long as le ka ya go tsaya P3000. Lona gongwe go leka go fokotsa deficit. Go na le gore re ye namang le bina bina le ntshe dikgoponyana le tseye go senka go e fokotsa ka go kgethisa Batswana go feta P3000, lona practise a sketch. ka fa re ntseng re ba kgethisa ka teng. Re ipotsa gore ga go na infrastructure in place e e leng Nngwe ya tsone Rraetsho ke commissions. We know gore e dira gore programmes tse di ntle tse di kgone le maloba fa ministries di ntse di bega ka Committee gore di dirwe sentle. Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo go diriwa of Supply, o ne o nna o ntse o bona tsebetsebe ya madi nkgosakgosa fela gore go tle gotwe nnyaa programme e gotwe e ya go nna a commissions. We know gore half of ne ya dirwa. Nnyaa art competitions di dirilwe ke a go those commissions, di dirilwe mme maduo a tsone ga tshwaela, mme e le gore the quality ya competitions tseo re ise re ko re a bone sentle fela. Go raya gore whether e ne e tlhabisa ditlhong. But ka gore it is something that di ka bo di ne di dirilwe kana di sa dirwa, go ne go sa has to be done, e dirwa fela gore madi a tswe, e bo e tla e dire pharologanyo. So ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, golo le gore madi a dule go raya gore that thing e dirilwe. gongwe kwa re ka fokotsang teng ke commissions. Tse e leng gore half the time, go ya go tsewa consultants tsa I am saying cycle ya ntlha e fetile, re ya go tsena mo mafatshe a sele tse di tlang di batla madi a a seng kana go e nngwe. Mme ka ra re gongwe mananeo a a ka ka sepe jaaka boScotland Yard. Mole ga nako ele ke thusa banana, a re dire gore gongwe re dire cycle e le santse ke le kwa sekoleng go tsositse modumo fale. one (1) ka ngwaga. Gore bonnyennyane jo bongwe jo ba neng ba tla a bo fiwa mo go ya bobedi, re kgone go Ke dumela gore commissions tse, re ka dira fa go na bo kgarameletsa to the deficit. Se e le maikaelelo a go le dipatlisiso dingwe tse re batlang go di dira, re dirise leka go nama re diegile ka VAT gore e tle e re morago badirelapuso ba rona ba e leng gore re ba rutile ditiro, fa go sena go nna go tokafala, e bo e le gore jaanong re ba ba ka kgonang go dira dipatlisiso. Selo se se ka re ka bua le Batswana, gore “bagaetsho, kana maloba re thusa gore bonnyennyane jo, re kgone go bo tsaya re ne re tshwaraganye le bothata seemo e se sone. Seemo bo kgarameletse to finance the deficit. Because fa e le se boetse. Fa seemo se boetse kwa mannong, jaanong gore Ministries di le five di buile gore go ya go diriwa re ne re kopa gore a re thusanyeng ka go bona gore re commissions, kana go raya gore when adding madi duela VAT e e okeditsweng.” Ka mafoko a a kalo ke... ao, boP2 million re ne re setse re ba dirile ka madi a gotweng ke a commissions fela. HONOURABLE MEMBER: ... (Inaudible)...

I am saying P2 million e ka tswa e le a drop in the MR MMOLOTSI: Ee, Honourable Saleshando a re ocean, but fa o lebelela gore go na le gore o mo tseye ke lebetse ya barracks. Gone ee o ne a bua le nna fa a mo Batswaneng, o ka mo somola gone fela from re, fa ke ne ke bua ka tsone, o ne a seyo, a re batho ba commissions wa mo isa to finance the deficit. Go ka re Gaborone Central ba ba mo romileng mo Palamenteng, thusa thata mme ga dira gore re name re eme pele re ba re bone ga ba batle barracks tseo di ka nama di eme sa oketse VAT, re tla a e oketsa morago fa itsholelo e ka gore... setse e tokafala. HONOURABLE MEMBER: ... (Inaudible)...

Re na le mananeo a a tshwanang constituency MR MMOLOTSI: Ee, ke raya gore ke wa kganetso. tournament. It is a beautiful programme because Ga ke itse gore ene e le wa kganetso o bua eng, but bana ba a tshameka ba bo ba ya go robala. Se se anyway ke ne ke wela... ntshwenyang ke gore fa first cycle e fela within the same year, second cycle e a simologa gape. Madi a a MR TSOGWANE: On a point of order Mr Speaker. mannyennyane fa re lebile gore puso deals ka madi a My point of order Mr Speaker was with regard to the mantsi. But bonnyennyane joo, fa bo nna bo ntse bo comment made by the Honourable Member, that he was kgaramediwa bo isiwa ka kwa, even P200 000 ke madi reminded of something by a side remark and then you a mantsi fa o dira savings. Mme o leka to avoid seemo have to go back on that point which he made earlier se e leng gore Batswana ba ya go duela tax. Fa o tsaya on, because he has been reminded by a friend as a side tse di sha tse gotweng constituency art competitions, remark. I am saying that this will render this House out maloba kwa kgaolong ya me re ne re sena dikhwaere of order if he was to listen to each and every side remark sentle. Gape re sena ba ba dirang sketches sentle, re so that he can be reminded of what he said earlier on, sa itse gore re tla a dira jang. Jaanong ka gore re ne re when the Honourable Member was not in the House. bona gore madi a tla a tloga a wela ka mothobodika MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Member, re sa itse kwa a ileng teng, re bo re tsaya bana fela re the member holding the floor has been talking about ba rulaganya re re practise dipinanyana tse pedinyana people that were talking to him in Francistown outside foo, le fa e kare gongwe morago ga two days le bo le

52 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) this Chamber giving him instructions. One of them is HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Honourable Saleshando. Because he has not said it in the House, unless if you can specifically point to the MR ARONE: Whatever you call it. We moved on to particular Standing Order that the member is offending, the diamond era. So government, as one Honourable then I am inclined not to agree with you. Member alluded, then became reluctant to come up with new ideas on how this economy can be broadened. MR MMOLOTSI: Honourable Member wa Gaborone So that it does not become vulnerable to external Central Rre Saleshando, o seka wa tlhola o bua dilo o tla shocks. Now what has been the result? I looked at the a ntsenya mo mathateng. Legale fa ke wela Rraetsho, Botswana International Financial Management (BIFM) mma ke tseye nako e ke tlhalose gore nna ke le moemedi and Botswana Institute of Development Policy Agency wa batho ba Francistown South, ba ke neng ke kopanye (BIDPA) reports from 2002 up to 2007. This group of le bontsi jwa bone ka weekend, ga ke dumalane le gore economists have been doing very well in trying to advice VAT e okediwe ka 2 per cent. Ke rapela Tona gore a the government of the day. But as usual, the government reetse batho ba Francistown South ka gore fa a ne a bone of the day has failed to take heed of recommendations difatlhego tsa bone fa ba bua le nna, le ene o ka bo a ne from BIDPA and BIFM. Those are the economic groups a utlwa botlhoko thata. Jaanong ka tsela e e ntseng jalo that have been set up by the same government, to Rraetsho, re a le kopa gore namang le eme pele. E tle e advise them on economic diversification. Now what has re morago ga dingwaga tse pedi re tsaya gore itsholelo been the result? Personally I tend to believe that this e tla a bo e simolotse go kokoana, o bo o oketsa. Ke a philosophical statement tsa bo gore e gatile kgamelong, leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. I am not good in Setswana mo gongwe ke go lebetse. Those are just philosophical statements to delay people MR ARONE (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr Speaker. from thinking. We cannot repeat these adages, whether As usual I will be very brief, because most of what I had they are called adages or whatever, that were said in the prepared to say regarding this request, has been said by 1960s, today. It does not show a lot of seriousness on the other Honourable Members. Let me make it clear from the part of the government. beginning Mr Speaker, that I personally, a representative from the delta, the Okavango Constituency, a constituency Just to give an example, I was looking at one that is well known by those who benefit from it as the recommendation from Rre Motsamai Mpho in 1981. Jewel of Africa, but for some of us who are indigenous Trying to advise the same government on how to that area we know it is the Jewel of poverty. It will be dangerous the education system that we have been very, very difficult for me Mr Speaker, and it will be a pursuing is. To date, legislators many years after that serious sign of dishonesty if I were to stand in this House statement was made, still have got the same problem. and say I support the request by the Honourable Minister. We still have got Members in this House trying to Mr Speaker, earlier on some Honourable Members in this advise government on one and the same thing, that this House were saying that we keep on criticising and we education system is dangerous and wasteful. do not provide alternative ideas. You know that is cheap politics, that is lack of seriousness. I cannot come into this HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is not inclusive. House as a representative of a registered and serious party, MR ARONE: It is not inclusive at all. So this is where led by serious people, learned people like the Botswana my problem is. The fact of the matter Mr Minister as I Congress Party (BCP), and be referred to as people who mentioned in my debate during the budget … do not have an alternative. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH (MR HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… MATLHABAPHIRI): On a point of clarification. MR ARONE: The Honourable Minister of Finance and Kene ke re Motlotlegi wa kgaolo ya Okavango, gongwe Development Planning, I have respect for you. I would a tlhalose gore fa Motlotlegi Motsamai Mpho a dira hand a copy of the Manifesto of our party, because you statement se a reng o se dirile, o ne a dira fa kae fa a will get a lot of ideas on how this economy should then advise goromente, a le eng nako ya teng? be structured and diversified. To avoid the problems HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further clarification. that we are experiencing today. MR ARONE: Mr Speaker … To start with Mr Speaker, I looked at the history of this economy and learnt that from 1966 to 1970, the MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, can you allow country relied on handouts or aid from the colonial him to respond to the first one then you will come after. masters, that is, Britain. Then after 1970s, that is when MR ARONE: Let me take it. we now moved on the diamond era.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 53 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Arone, can you respond were being sold, we cannot try and sell them here. So to the first one and finish with it, then that iswhen if we could please bring the debate back into the topic. the Honourable Member can rise if he still wishes to I thank you Sir. continue with it. MR SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Minister, MR ARONE: Some of these points of clarification or Order! Order! Members please. Indeed you are right. I questions sometimes do not need to be answered. Rre was just about to tell the Honourable Member to please Mpho is a renowned leader and political philosopher remember the subject matter before us. The request is in this country, in his own right. He has written a lot to increase VAT by 2 per cent; that. I am not ruling you of books and papers. When he made this statement, he as out of order yet, but I want you to observe Standing was attending a conference on education. Order 46 (1). Thank you.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Kae? MR ARONE: Mr Speaker, our belief in the BCP is that, when you look at a problem, you look at it broadly; MR ARONE: Somewhere in Gaborone. I can provide you need to ask yourself why you have this problem. the paper I have it in my office. Then he advised You do not narrowly look at it. That is why I brought in government that the current education system, Mr the issue of education. Because it is the basis of good Minister of Finance, whatever adjustment or policies economic performance because if you do not have… we are going to come up with, I am not an economist. But they are going to fail. Why are they going to fail; MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, Order! Please! it is evident. We have a number of programmes, re Standing Order 46 (1) has this to say and I want you to na le boCitizen Entrepreneurial Development Agency note it, “A member shall restrict his observation to the (CEDA)... subject matter under discussion and shall not introduce a matter irrelevant to that subject.” I do not want to HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. apply it yet, but I am simply saying gongwe le alela ruri MR ARONE: I am trying to address the point of thata, ka gore le rata go ala. But while that has been clarification... accepted as a conversion here, ala ka bokhutshwane and get to the matter before the House. Thank you. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member Arone, Order! When you are not yielding, do not qualify it, simply MR ARONE: Thank you Mr Speaker, I would go indicate that you are not yielding and proceed. Thank you. ahead. I do not want to appear as if I am disrespecting the Chair. MR ARONE: I am not yielding. Moving on, the reason why we do not support this We have a number of financial schemes government request is that, this economy Mr Speaker, has produced has put in place trying to assist Batswana in this high numbers of poor people in this country. That is why country. All these schemes are failing. Why, because of I made it clear that as a representative of the poor, it will our level of skills which are very very low as compared be very dishonest for me to support this request. to our foreign counterparts, that have come into this economy. That is a fact that only people I do not know The other question that one poses is that, I asked from where, can deny. this question in the last debate under the budget. Of then who controls this economy? It is clear that it is MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS controlled by the foreigners. This is where our main DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): On concern is, the indigenous people. We are simply a point of procedure. Thank you Mr Speaker and saying, and we want to make it very very clear that Honourable Arone for yielding. Mr Speaker, I do not Batswana cannot afford to incur any more costs, to wish to teach you how to do your work, you are doing support a failing government. It is the responsibility of it very very well. But Sir, I think it is becoming a little a government to look after them, now it is turning the tedious for those listening and trying to follow the other way round. debate, if Honourable Members are going to be allowed to throw political statements that invite responses that MR SPEAKER: Honourable Arone, please make your are totally unrelated to the debate. If we are talking observation or your case for why you are failing to about VAT, we should talk about it alone. But if we support the Minister’s request. Anything else that you are talking about the education system that has failed are not trying to make a case for not supporting or for and people not getting employment, it is another topic supporting, becomes irrelevant. So I am asking you just for another day. Manifestoes failed when manifestoes to try and oblige. Otherwise I will be forced to say you are irrelevant and I do not want to go to that point yet.

54 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

MR ARONE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Sometimes it MR ARONE: Mr Speaker, I think you have heard confuses us because I have been listening to Members the quote from the dictionary. It is clear, no matter the debating in this House since yesterday. Ba bua ka gore language we choose to use to try and justify why we ba a ala Mr Speaker, but let me proceed. need to increase VAT with two per cent, the fact of the matter is that, it then affects those without income. These interventions now Mr Speaker, make someone That one is the fact of the matter. lose track of what they are trying to say. Now let me move on to VAT straight away. I wanted to talk Honourable Mmolotsi has been talking about the about the economy because this weak economy is argument that government has decided to zero rates on what necessitates us to be speaking about VAT. If the certain food stuffs. Even BIFM and BIDPA do not look economy was doing very well, then we would not have at that as an argument to go by, because poor people or this debate on VAT. those who are in the lower class do not only need food. But as Honourable Mmolotsi has put it clearly, they also With your permission Mr Speaker, may I quote from need building materials, clothes and other things. When the new world encyclopaedia dictionary on what they you talk about millet, is that a balanced diet? People have to say on VAT. need meat and other things. So, we are saying we cannot MR SPEAKER: Please quote. just simply accept this because the fact of the matter…

MR ARONE: “The burden of VAT, like other ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND consumption taxes, turns to be passed on to the SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): consumer. Additionally since this is a regressive tax, Thank you very much Mr Speaker and Honourable lower income people have the greatest burden.” Member. I wish to correct that millet is not a diet. I thank you Mr Speaker. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions)… MR ARONE: Mr Speaker, sometimes when you yield, MR ARONE: In fact, what I wanted… it helps for people to show their true colours.

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members on my right, Let me just go point by point and pass on the debate to the Honourable Member has decided he is going to other Honourable Members. Another fact under VAT is quote and he is quoting up to where he decided to that, it is imposed at every stage of production. That is quote. You do not have to shout at him to say e bale a fact. Therefore, there is no way one can stand in this yotlhe. Because each Member here is entitled to debate House and say it cannot affect the poor. It is there, it is in the manner that he wants to debate, but at the same imposed at every stage of production. time observing the relevance to the subject under discussion. As he is right now, I think he is now back Secondly, VAT erodes the purchasing power of our to the subject and you want to derail him. I think that people. That one is a fact. Therefore, there is no way is not fair for you Honourable Members to do that. I one can turn around and say it does not affect the want you to also note that Standing Order 47 says you poor. Personally, I believe, Mr Speaker, increasing have to be silent when another Member is holding the workers salaries would give us more revenue in terms floor, please. of collecting more income tax from them. It becomes more positive when you increase the salaries and get MR ARONE: Thank you Mr Speaker. The problem is the income tax from them than to increase tax and not that people are worried when some of us stand up, they give them increment on their salaries. become very uncomfortable. Another fact is that, as I have mentioned Mr Speaker, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Interruptions)… VAT will deepen rural poverty.

MR SPEAKER: Honourale Members, the Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of clarification. Member has said end of the quote. Why should you force him to read if he has ended the quotation? Otherwise, if MR ARONE: I am not yielding. you keep on doing that, you know powers of the Chair, That one is also a fact. It will deepen rural poverty. As they apply to anybody. I do not want to have to go to I made it clear, for me it becomes very difficult. The those. If it means going there, I will do that. I would other reason, Mr Speaker… like you to give the Honourable Member a chance to debate, make the normal intervention in terms of the MR MAKGALEMELE: Point of elucidation Mr rules of the House, but not shouting at him while he is Speaker. I just wanted to elucidate on the issue of holding the floor. That is grossly disorderly. salaries. I wanted to indicate to my colleague that one of

Hansard No 163 Part 4 55 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

the reasons why we are looking for various sources of ago in Gaborone Central and found that even people revenues, including increment of VAT, is for the simple in Gaborone are complaining about what I felt is too reason that we do not have enough resources. So, where little, the P5 that they pay. I found it as an issue on will we get the resources to increase salaries? the counter, people complaining that this is too much. Now, if people in Gaborone are complaining about P5, MR ARONE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I think when what more about people in Sekondomboro and other Honourable Mmolotsi and Honourable Saleshando areas in the far end? These are some of the areas we Junior were on the floor, they addressed that question. are simply saying this government has done very little So, I do not have time to address it because it is a very to uplift the living standards of our people, therefore, simple concept. they cannot afford this two per cent VAT increase.

Mr Speaker, I was moving on to another point to say With those few remarks Mr Speaker, I thank you. I personally do not support this request because the government cannot justify. In rural areas we have made MINISTER OF LABOUR AND HOME AFFAIRS it clear, the implementation of projects in this country (MR SIELE): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa is disastrous. So, there is a lot of money being wasted Palamente. Ke lebogela go nneela sebaka se gore ke bue on these projects, Mr Speaker. Therefore, I personally ka kgang e Tona a e re beileng pele. Ke ema Tona nokeng cannot support this because if government was prudent le go kopa Palamente e gore e dumalane le tshutiso e enough, we would be saving a lot of money on projects Tona a e beileng pele, ya gore ka fa go ntseng ka teng, that run beyond their scheduled date of completion and go nne le koketsego ya two per cent mo lekgethong la save a lot of money instead of taxing our poor people ditlamelo. Ka gore re mo bothateng re le lefatshe. Bothata in this country. Of course, we have made it clear on jo bo sa tsalwang ke gore puso e e leng mo setilong ka unnecessary expenditures that we believe something nako eno ga e na tebelopele. Re mo bothateng re le could be done to reduce in those areas instead of lefatshe la Botswana le mafatshe ka bophara. Mafatshe a increasing VAT. a tlhabologileng a mo seemong se re leng mo go sone, sa kwelo tlase ya itsholelo e e diragatseng... I have got a list of issues that other Honourable Members for example Honourable D. Saleshando and Honourable MR SPEAKER: Honourable Masimolole, stop that Mmolotsi talked about. I have got a problem. We are not conference at the corner please. saying we do not need security but in times of difficulties, something should be done on these escalating military MR SIELE: Kwelo tlase ya itsholelo e e diragetseng expenditures. We should show signs of constraints mo dingwageng tse pedi kana tse tharo tse di fetileng, when we talk about the expenditure. With regard to the ka mabaka a re a itseng a a neng a diragala. Mme re Constituency League, I agree with other Honourable le lefatshe jaana, re tshela ka thekiso ya ditswammung Members that it is something that we can stop for the le temothuo, bogolo jang jaaka nama e re e rekisang meantime and see where we can take the money to. In kwa ntle. Re tshela ka gore re ntse jaana, itsholelo ya other debates we talked about the money that we spend rona e tswakantswe. Re na le Bojanala, mme batho ga looking after our former Heads of State in this country. ba thelegele mo lefatsheng leno ba jele nala, go tla go It is also a lot and it needs to be reviewed. Of course, the bona makgabisa naga a re nang le one le diphologolo issue of nominated Councillors in this country is also a tse re nang le tsone, ka ntlha ya gore itsholelo kwa concern. mafatsheng a bone e wetse kwa tlase. Tona a lemoga gore seemo se, e kare se ntse jaana, sa nna botoka fa We want to also make it clear that almost all civil Batswana ba ka nna le seabe sa gore go nne le koketsego organisations in this country that have commented ya two per cent ya VAT, gore e tle mo go 12 per cent. on the budget, are totally against the issue of VAT. Ke selo se re se bonang se le molemo. Therefore, we are also joining them in the condemnation of this increment Mr Speaker, that it is totally unfair Madi a a tla a phuthiwang ka lekgetho le, ka fa Tona a and it would not help our people with anything. Unless buang ka teng, a tlile go tshwara didikadike di le makgolo government can justify some of expenditures that we a a supang. Madi a, a tla a bo e le one a a oketsang gore have today, why they are being carried on, at the end of ditlhabololo di ye go tswelela. Ke batla go bua jaana the day it would not make any difference. ka gore batho ba bua ka dikgaolo tsa bone. Jaaka ke le Mopalamente wa Ngwaketse Borwa, go na le ditiro tse The last point, Mr Speaker, is that when you argue and di neng di tshwanetswe ke go dirwa. Ga di ka ke tsa say you have zero rated foodstuffs, what are we saying kgona go dirwa ka ntlha ya kwelo tlase ya itsholelo. about the health aspect of our people? I was shocked Mr P700 million yo Tona a buang ka ene, ke solofetse gore Speaker, even in Gaborone, I visited a clinic two days a tla a thusa mo kagong ya borogo jwa Molapowabojang

56 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) go ya go tsena kwa Lorwana. Le Molapowabojang go ya re bua jaaka e kete ke selo se se dirwang ke goromente go tsena kwa Mogojwagojwe. Ditiro tse tsotlhe di tlhoka wa letsatsi wa gompieno. Ke Palamente e re leng mo go P10 million. Kana fa o ka bona madi ao ke solofela gore yone e, ba ba neng ba le fa pele, ba ba neng ba bona go o ka re leba kwa Ngwaketse Borwa ka selekanyo se. tshwanela gore go nne le Makhanselara le Mapalamente Re ne re solofetse gore khansele e ye go aga sekole ba ba itlhophetsweng. Ke ne ke re ke tlhalose selo se ka kwa Gopong. Mathata a tsa itsholelo a dira gore, tiro gore batho kwa ntle jaaka fa ba tla a bala dipampiri, ba e e ntseng jaana, e bo e beetswe fa tlhakoreng. Fa o ka reetsa seromamowa, ba tla a utlwa jaaka e kete VAT e bona madi a, kgotsa o ka re gopola kwa Gopong ra tla ra itlhokomolosa dintlha tse ke neng ke di bua. Tse ke reng nna le sekole sa bana koo. Ke sone se ke dumelanang le ke tsamaiso e e leng teng, e e tswang goo lowe. koketsego e e ntseng jaana e. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente... Re ne re solofetse Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente gore madi a fa a ka oketsega jaana, MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Deputy classrooms tsa bananyana, two teacher schools, tse re Speaker and Honourable Pheto, if you wish to hold any neng re di solofetse kwa Ditojana, Dintsaneng le kwa conference, you better move outside the Parliament. Maisanekopore, ke solofela gore madi a fa a ka nna Otherwise you are disturbing the flow of debate. teng, council e tla a re e ntse jaana e ye go tsosolosa MR SIELE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ditiro tse di ntseng jalo Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa e re ntswa ke lemoga gore boammaaruri jone, ee Palamente. Mma ke utlwe gore tlhaloso ke efe. badirelapuso ga ba a okelediwa madi ka ntlha ya MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of clarification mathata a. Mma ke gakolole batho gore, selo se ga se Mr Speaker. Ke ne ke batla fela gore Tona a nneele tlholo ntsha se. Ka dingwaga tsele tsa bo1980, lefatshe dithulaganyo sentle. O ne a tlhalosa ka projects tse e le ne le le mo mathateng a a ntseng jaana ka dingwaga leng gore e tla a re fa VAT e sena go nna e phuthiwa, tse di neng di latelelana. Lefatshe le ne le kwakwaletse gongwe go ka kgonagala gore di dirwe kwa kgaolong jaaka fa le kwakwaletse jaana. Bodirelapuso ga bo a ka ya gagwe. Ke ne ke re ke botse gore, fa e ka re by the jwa okelediwa madi ka ntlha ya gore go ne go le thata time madi a ya go goroga, e bo e le gore setshaba se jaaka gompieno, mme e bile le bone ba lemoga bothata feditswe ke tlala, di tla a bo di direlwa mang? Ka lebaka jo re leng mo go jone. la gore kana VAT e e ya go lopiwa le mo bathong ba MR NSHIMWE: On a point of clarification Mr ba sa berekeng, ba ba senang sepe se ba nang naso. Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. Mma Tona a re Jaanong ga e ka re by the time madi a projects a goroga, tlhalosetse. Ke utlwa e kete o itumelela thata P700 bone ba gotweng ba a di direlwa ba bo ba tlhokafetse, million collection mo VAT. Mme re na le deficit ya re tla a bo re fitlheletse eng? P12.1 billion, a mme gone moo go raya gore go na le MR SIELE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, sengwe se se ka thusang? Le gore, fa a re, ‘golo mo ga re baeteledipele golo fa. Re tlile dikakanyong. Ke se ga goromente wa gompieno kana wa letsatsi leno’, a ntsha mogopolo. Ke baya kakanyo ya me mo pele ga go kile ga nna le goromente ope fela leng kwa ntle ga Palamente e e tlotlegang e. Ga ke batle go bua ka dilo goromente yo wa ga Domkrag yo re buang ka ene? tse ke di akanyetsang gore fa di ka diragala, go tla a MR SIELE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, diragala eng. Seo ke raya gore ke kgang e sele fela, ke noka e tladiwa ke melatswana. P700 million yo o leng mafura a terekere. teng yo, o tshwanelwa ke gore re mmatle golo gongwe. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke ne ke Re mmatla ka tsela e ya VAT. Ka gore re bona seemo batla gore ke tlhalose selo se. Batho ba bua ka gore ka fa se ntseng ka teng sa gore re tlhaelelwa ke madi kana goromente yo o busang yo, ga a na kelelelo ka a Motlotlegi a a buang a P12 billion or P13 billion. gore gompieno jaana go duelwa Mapalamente ba ba Goromente o tshwanelwa ke go senka ditsela tse e itlhopetsweng mo Palamenteng e, le Makhanselara leng gore madi a, a ka okediwa ka tsone. Ga se tlholo a a tlhopilweng ke Tona. Batho ba lebala gore Molao ntsha, mebuso e dira jalo. Lefatshe fa gotwe batho ba motheo wa lefatshe le, o o simolotseng go dirisiwa ka a ipusa ka gore fa go nna thata, ba tshwanelwa ke gore 1966, o na le temana ya gore fa go sena go tlhophiwa, re ba rwale mokgweleo wa lefatshe la bone. Ke selo se re tla a tla fa re le Mapalamente re tlhophe. Ga se selo se se tshwanelwang ke gore re se tlhaloganye. tlang ka goromente wa gompieno. Molao wa dikhansele Motsamisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, mma e re ke tsa dikgaolo tsa magae le tsa ditoropo, o o tlhomilweng ntse jaana ke re, ke lebogela gore Tona a bo a tlositse fa re tsaya boipuso jaana, le one o supa gore morago ga lekgetho mo dilwaneng dingwe tse di rekwang. Re ditlhopho, Tona o tla a itlhophela Makhanselara. Jalo, leboga thata gore kwa Ngwaketse Borwa, diterekere, ga se selo se e kete gompieno fa re bua ka VAT, re bo

Hansard No 163 Part 4 57 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

fertiliser le pesticides di bo di se na lekgetho. Ke selo botshelong. Tiro e re e dirang, ke ya go aga setshaba, se balemi ba se buileng, ba bua ka batho ba ba neng ba go aga banana. Fa o tsamaya kwa merakeng le masimo, kokoanye kwa dikgaolong tsa bone. o tla a bona bana ba rona kwa dikgaolong tse di farologanyeng, ba na le mabalanyana a ba a itiretseng; Ka kgwedi ya March e le 12, ra bo re na le phuthego e e le tsela ya go supa gore le bone ba tswa pelo. tona e e neng e tsere batho go tswa mo dikhutlong tse nne tsa lefatshe. Bangwe ba ne ba tswa Maun, North Gompieno jaana le fa re ka tsaya mafatshe a gompieno East le Bobirwa. Ba ne ba kopanye e le balemi. Ba fetile a a tsweletseng pele, jaaka boBrazil, boMaradona ba bua kgang e. Mo go neng ga ba ga dira gore e re ka kwa ba tswang teng, go simologile fela jaana. Kwa di 19 tsa ga March, re bo re ne re kokoane koo re na go boArgentina kwa, ba simolola ba tshameka mo le Tautona. Batho ba mmolelela e bile ba mo akgolela diherwaneng le mo mabalanyaneng jaana. Tsela e e tiro e puso ya gagwe e e dirileng ka fa mhameng wa tsa ntseng jaana e, re tshwanelwa ke gore re e lebogele. Temo thuo. Ke selo se se tshwanelwang ke gore ke se Re tshwanelwa ke gore re e tseye gore lefatshe la rona, tlhalose mo Palamenteng e Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa banana ba lefatshe la rona, re kgone go ba ntsha mo Palamente. Balemi lefatshe ka bophara, ba lebogela se mebileng le kwa ba nwang majalwa teng. Re ba lere Tona a se dirileng go tlosa lekgetho mo dilong tse dintsi kwa mabaleng kwa ba ka kgonang go tshameka sentle tse di amanang le matshelo a bone ka tlhamalalo. teng, ya re ka moso le rona ra bo re na le batshameki ba ba nang le bokao jo bo kwa godimo. Sengwe se ke ka se buang Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ke gakolola, re tshwanelwa ke gore re le Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, dintlha tse re Palamente le goromente re ntse jaana, re kgone go ruta tshwanelwa ke gore fa re ntse jaana, re bua ka lekgetho batho mosola wa lekgetho la VAT. Ke bua selo se Tona le, e bo e le gore re buela mo go tsone. Kana mafoko a, jaana e bile ke gakolola gore, o bue le Mokaulengwe tota jaaka fa re a buile le Bakaulengwe ka bophara, ke kana Bakaulengwe ba gago ba lefatshe le re abalaneng ne ke re a tota a ga re a a bua? A e ne e se gore ka nako molelwane le bone. Gore a nako ga e a tla gore re tle re e, re bo re ka re jaanong wena o rebole gore nnyaa, kgone go phutlha VAT sentle. Ka gore jaaka fa o itse Tona, mafoko a re a buile, ra re, “let the question be put.” Ke dikgoro tsa mololwane fa gare ga lefatshe la Botswana a sutisa fa re ya go leba temana ya bomasome a mane le South Africa tse di tsayang VAT, di nne fela. Mo go le botlhano sekaba sa ntlha 45 (1) jalo ke sutisa jalo, rayang gore fa o ne o ka bua gore dikgoro tse di leng gore, let the question be put. Ke a leboga. teng gale jaana, di okediwe di nne commercial borders, go raya gore re ka kgona go phutha VAT mo dithotong MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! The Honourable Member tse di rekwang kwa lefatsheng la Aferika Borwa. Gape who has just resumed the floor is moving a question in re bo re rute setshaba gore fa ba tswa go reka dithoto kwa terms of Standing Order 45(1). The title is closure of ntle ga lefatshe, fa ba tsena mo kgorong ya molelwane, debate, which has this to say, “After a question has been ba fete ba supe ka botlalo gore ba di rekile bokae. Gore proposed by any Member that at any time during the batle ba kgone gore ba duele VAT ka gore ke yone tsela course of debate, rise in his place and claim to move ‘That fela e re santseng re na le yone, kana bontlha bongwe a question be now put.’ Thereupon the Member speaking jwa tsela e e leng motswedi wa go phutlha makgetho shall resume his seat and unless it appears to the Chair mo bathong. Kana gompieno jaana dingwe tsa dilo tse that the motion is an abuse to the rules of the Assembly, re di lemogang ke gore batho ba tila go duela VAT. Fa and infringement of the rights of minority, the question motho a reka selo ntlheng e le ya moseja se lopa P7, ‘That the question be now put’ shall be put forthwith. No 000.00, o tla ka receipts tse pedi. E le gore e nngwe ke debate on that motion shall be allowed. And if the motion e a yang go e supa mo molelwaneng gore lekgetho le a is carried, the debate then upon before the Assembly shall yang go le duela le nne kwa tlase. Ke selo se e leng gore cease and the question before the Assembly shall be put re tshwanelwa ke gore re nne le batho ba ba tlhalefileng forthwith.” Now Honourable Members, I have seen a lot ba ba ka kgonang le go kanoka dilo fa di tla go tsena of Members yielding to speak. To date, only 15 Members fa. Gore ba tle ba kgone go bona gore batho fa ba ntse have spoken out of the membership of this House which jaana, ga go na tsela e ba ka tilang lekgetho le ka yone. is 61 including the four Specially Members. Therefore, we are not even gone beyond the quorum level. So my Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, sengwe se ke believe is this is a weighty matter, and being a weighty batlang go bua ka sone, se Bakaulengwe ba ntseng matter, if there are more Members that are wishing to ba bua ba kgala goromente yo, gore ka jaana go na speak, I would like to make further observation before le Constituency Tournaments, madi ao a a senyega. I come to your question and see whether there are any Bagaetsho, kana seemo se se ntseng jaana, go rotloetsa more Members that are yielding to speak, before I move. batho, go ruta batho jaana, ke selo se se turu mo The floor remains open, Honourable Members.

58 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

MR G. SALESHANDO (SELEBI PHIKWE Standing order 45(3) says, “A motion under this order WEST): Ke a leboga Mr Speaker. Mma ke bue fela shall not be decided in the affirmative if it appears on kwa tshimologong gore ke na le tsholofelo ya gore the division that less than half of the Members eligible ba ba sa dumalaneng le nna ba tla a reetsa. Ba ba to vote in the majority is in support of the motion.” kopang clarification,ke tla a ba neela gore ba dire jalo provided ba itse se ba se dirang and they are here, ba MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, emetse setshaba ka boikokobetso. Mr Speaker, kgang the Member is deciding to selectively choose what he e e fa pele ga rona ke dumalana le fa o re e weighty ka feels is for his own convenience. He is ignoring the Sekgoa. E bokete ka gore, Tona jaaka fa a kopa gore operative word “if the assent of the Chair has been a fiwe gore a oketse VAT ka two per cent, se tota a se given”. I am the Chair, I have not given that assent buang ke gore, ka gore goromente o ntse a le mo tseleng because I believe a weighty matter like this one, where to create poverty even further. Ke na le mathata a gore I have observed many Members rising to speak, and it is ke ka dumalana le gore two per cent yo o ka feta fela still too premature to come to that question. Therefore, ka bonolo le ka megolokwane, re ntse re lemoga gore I made a ruling in terms of Standing Order 48 and it has o ya go oketsa poverty mo bathong; mo setshabeng. So this to say, Decision of the Chair; that is the heading of ke na le mathata a go dumalana le kopo e mo sebakeng the Standing Order. “The Speaker shall be responsible sa gompieno. for the observance of the rules of order. His decision on a point of order shall be final.” Therefore, I have Re sa tswa go fetisa budget e e leng gore 90 per cent ya made a ruling, and unless I am convinced there are no yone, re e fetisitse re kopile ka sebaka se se leele, rona more Members interested in speaking, that is when I ba re neng re ise re bone NDP 10. Re e fetisitse re ise re can entertain any motion that let the question be put. bone se tota re yang to implement. Go ne go sa lekana But for now, I am not yet convinced. So Honourable gore re fetise budget re sa itse gore re ya to implement Saleshando, you shall proceed. eng, mme re ntse re itse gore... MR KGATHI: Further order Mr Speaker. MR MOATLHODI: Procedure Mr Speaker. Thank you very much Mr Speaker. The Honourable Member does MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, I have made not have to solicit on the requirement of procedure. Mr a ruling. Honourable Minister, Standing Order Speaker, on pursuance to Standing Order 45 Subsection No.48 says, the decision of the Chair is final and I 2 and 3, it has this to say... have made a final decision. Proceed; Honourable G. Saleshando. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Member, you are challenging the decision of the Chair. Pursuant MR G. SALESHANDO: Ke a leboga. Go leka go to that Section 45(1), I made a ruling about it. Anything thusa gore re seka ra nna le dikgogakgogano tse dintsi, else trying to bring me back to that decision; I have ka gore ga go tlhokafale re ne re ka tsaya metsotsonyana taken the decision; therefore I am not going to entertain e sekaenyana fela, re bo re fetsa re tsena mo go se any further interruptions. sengwe. Ga ke bone gone moo go ka lwelwa ke borre le bomme ka bokete jo bo kana, ra fufula fela, re fufutswa MR G. SALESHANDO: Ke ne ke santse ke supa gore, ke gone. Two per cent mo sebakeng sa gompieno ga ke re fetisitse budget re sa itse gore e ya to implement eng. mo amogele. Ka gore sa ntlha fela se re kabong re ne re se filwe pele ga re simolola to debate budget, re ka bo re itirile acquaint HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Eo, o e buile, tsena le NDP 10 ka gore ga go na se o ka se dirang... mo go e nngwe.

MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE MR G. SALESHANDO: Fa o ntsena ganong, ga ke (MR KGATHI): Point of order. Mr Speaker, the House na go go neela sebaka sa gore o mpotse sepe. Ga ke is out of order because the rulings were taken contrary mo amogele mo sebakeng sa gompieno, bogolo jang to the relevant Standing Order which is 45(2) and (3). ka gore ke pega molato mo go goromente yo o leng I can read it. 45(2) says, “when the motion ‘that the teng. Yo e leng gore mo sebakeng sa dingwaga tse di question be now put’ has been carried and the question fetileng, o tshwanetse a bo a ne a kile a itse gore go tla consequent thereon has been decided, any Member a nna le metlha e e tshwanang le e. Mme metlha e e may claim that any other question already proposed tshwanang le e, e a ipaakanyediwa; ‘mosele wa pula o from the Chair be now put, and if the assent of the epiwa go sale gale.’ Mosele wa pula o ke reng o ka bo o Chair is given, such question shall be put forthwith and epilwe nako e santse e le teng, ke metswedi e Rre Siele decided without amendment or debate.” a ntseng a bua ka yone. Ene legale o dirisa metswedi negatively, ya me ke e e positive.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 59 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

Fa go ne go nnile le gore itsholelo ya rona e nne le Se ke se nyaletsang goromente ke gore, gompieno metswedi e e ka reng mo mathateng a a ntseng jaana ga go a lebagana gore re tseye two per cent re rwese ya re sireletsa, gore seemo sa rona re seka ra patelesega morwalo batho ba rona. E bile go lebega o kare gore re ye kwa bathong, go ya go tsenya matsogo a rona Batswana re tshwana fela, ga re batle go akanya thata. mo dipateng tsa bone. Re ntsha madi mo go bone, re ba O kare jaanong bagaetsho ka kwa, ba batla dilo tse di rwesa morwalo. Ka re goromente o paletswe ke metswedi motlhofo fela gore mafatshe a amogetse VAT, rona re e jaanong. Ke sone ke reng ke na le mathata ka gore fa re bo mang ba e leng gore ga re ka ke ra amogela VAT. le neela two per cent yole ka fa go ntseng ka teng… Re dirwa ke selo gatwe se bidiwa mind-set. Mind-set wa rona o maswe ka gore ga re batle go akanya mo go ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TRADE AND tseneletseng gore mathata a rona re ka a dira jang. INDUSTRY (MR MOTOWANE): On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Fa ke bua ka budget, NDP 10 ke tla a ya go tsena mo Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente le wena Mopalamente go VAT, ke ne ke batla gore ke tsene mo goreng kana wa Selebi Phikwe Bophirima, mogwagwadi wa go raya gore ke dumalana le ba ba reng a re lebeng fa me. Fa e le gore goromente wa Botswana ke gone a re ka fokotsang kgotsa ra tsaya teng fa e le gore go tlhabologang, le tshwere bothata. E bile o paletswe teng. Jaanong ka re VAT ga e a siama ka gore, ke rona jaaka go bolelwa, mafatshe a mangwe a a tshwanang re dirileng. le boEngland le America, a e bileng manokonoko le mathata a gompieno re leng mo go one, a simologile Mmang ke tsene mo setlhopheng se se reng le nna ke kwa go bone. Ba feletse ba tlile mo seemong sa go re le Motswana go raya gore ke mo setlhopheng se se le ene goromente tota a eme ka dinao a dire bail out to dirileng gore lefatshe la Botswana gompieno, e bo e le the banks and the financial institutions tse di neng di gore beng ba lefatshe le ga se badira khumo. Ga re a tshwere bothata. Di le mo boketeketeng jwa seemo sa ba thusa gore re ba neele capacity ya gore mo seemong madi kana itsholelo ya bone. A naahe! mo Botswana se se ntseng jaana, re ba neele survival skills tse e leng tota fela Mopalamente wa Selebi Phikwe Bophirima, gore ba le bantsi ba ka tshela ka tsone. For argument a re lefatshe le la rona le le tlhabologang le ka bo le a sake, mma ke amogele gore ke molato wa rona. gaisitse go le kae ka gore ke one mafatshe a ba ratang Mathata a matona a ke a lebileng gompieno, go ne ga go baya dikai ka one Rraetsho? dirwa study nakonyana e khutshwanyane e e fetileng MR G. SALESHANDO: O botsa sentle thata le ka savings, gore fela fa kgwedi e fela ke ba le kae Setswana se tlhapile ke se utlwile. Pharologanyo ya mo Botswana ba ba tsayang madi go ya go reka dijo, rona le ba mafatshe a o a buang e tona fela thata. go bo go sala sengwenyana kwa bankeng ba boloka Itsholelo ya bone ka fa e godileng ka teng, e tona mo madinyana. O itse gore study sa ga Professor Hope ka e leng gore, ga o ka ke wa e tshwantshanya le rona nako eo, se ne sa supa gore ke mathata fela. Batswana ba re iseng re neele batho ba rona bokgoni jwa gore, ga ba boloke and fa ba sa boloke jaana, it impacts metswedi e nne teng. E re fa mathata a a nna teng, e bo negatively on investment. If it impacts negatively e le gore ba ka dirisa metswedi e gore itsholelo ya bone on investment, it impacts negatively on growth and e seka ya kokonelwa go feta selekanyo. For argument consumption. Go tsamaya fela jalo, and fa o dira jaana sake, re ka tsaya gore lefatshe la South Africa le botoka go raya gore at the end of the day, you have created mo go rona. Le na le metswedi e le e dirileng. Jaanong poverty. Ke sone se ke simolotseng ka gore two per 14 per cent wa VAT kwa South Africa fa a tsena mo cent yo o ka lebega e le two, one plus one equals two. tomato sauce for example, tomato sauce eo kwa South Ke ene yo o robang mokwatla wa kamela ga kere? Africa, e kwa tlase. Fa e tla go tsena mo go rona ka Bonang gore mathata a re a dirileng re le puso, fa o gore ga re itirele sepe… tsamaya mo dikgaolong tsa rona gompieno, batho ba HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… re neng re ba ntsha mo food basket, re ba phakisa dijo re ba isa kwa Ipelegeng. Go raya gore fa, fa e ne e MR G. SALESHANDO: Well, fa e le gore tomato le gore kwa tshimologong mind-set wa rona o ne o sauce is a bad example, agreed. Fa re tsaya tse dingwe tlhamaletse, batho ba re ka bo re ne re sa ba tsenya ba tse e leng gore di teng, g akere le a di itse tse e leng le kalo kalo mo food basket. Gore re fokotse bill ya go gore ba a di itirela? The point is tse ba kgonang go neela batho ba baskets tse di kalo kalo tsa dijo. di itirela tse di tshesanyane, 14 per cent kwa go bone o nna kwa tlase ga 12 per cent wa rona ka gore ba I do not want to be arrogant, mme ka fa re itseng ka na le tsone foo. That is the point I am making. Ga go teng, batho ba bangwe ba ba neng ba bona tsone dijo tlhokafale gore re kakantane ka tse jaaka batho ba ba tse e ne e se ba ba tshwanetseng gore ba di bone. Re sa itseng kwa ba yang teng. sentse madi re neela batho ba dijo. Re ka bo re bolokile

60 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) gone foo, mme ga re a ka ra kgona go dira jalo mme HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa, it is not. fela e le for political experience. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Rakhudu and other HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Honourable Members, any Member wishing to speak has to wait for his or her turn to be given the floor. Let the MR G. SALESHANDO: O ka mpaakanyetsa, ke tla Member speak and desist from running commentary. baakanyega. Fa e le gore ga se jalo, mme ke tla a nna le keletso ya go itse gore gatwe mabaka tota a a neng MR G. SALESHANDO: Fa o dira jalo, ke gone jaana a dira jalo e ne e le eng ka gore, ke tsamaela go ya ga o lwantsha deficit. Ka gore go raya gore you are go ntsha mogopolo wa gore re ka somarela fa kae. saving golo gongwe. Go raya gore at the end of the day, So, bana ba rona ba boForm 3, Form 5 le ba bangwe deficit ya gago ga e na go nna kwa godimo thata mo e ba ba sa berekeng, ga re a ba neela capacity gore ba leng gore, o tla a rwala matsogo mo tlhogong o lela o re itshwarelele ba bo ba itirele. deficit e ile kwa godimo thata, a re kgethise batho. Ke sone fela se ke lekang go se bua. Gore go tsamaya le Motho yo o tsenyeng sekole, yo o filweng survival mind-set wa rona, ga o tshwane le batho ba ba batlang skills ga go motlhofo gore a nne destitute. Fa o mo go nna aggressive. Ba ba tlang go fetola ka fa batho ba neetse thutonyana gore a ye go dira sengwenyana, ga akanyang ka teng. Batho ga ba na go iphetola fa lona go motlhofo gore motho yo o mo neele food basket. Ga le sa tseye effort decisively. It may be unpalatable and re a dira jalo. Mme ka go sa direng jalo, le gompieno unpopular, mme lona ga le itse kwa le yang teng… re santse re tsamaya re leka go ba itumedisa ka tsela nngwe, dispensing hand-outs tse di sa reyeng sepe. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke kopa tlhaloso. Instead of dispersing capacity ya gore motho ene ka boene a kgone go itshedisa, re sa ya kwa go ene. Ka go MR G. SALESHANDO: Ke tlhoka go itse gore ke dira jalo, go raya gore re fokotsa bill, we fight deficit. Re motho wa sebopego sefe. a e lwantsha e ise e tle. Re ise e re mo budget ya rona re MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member order. Our rule re we forecast gore re tla a ya go bona bokana, re ya go of debate, Standing Order 43, allows Members to make senya bokana and deficit ya rona e ya go nna bokana. Go interruptions. Your right as a Member holding the floor santse go siame mo go rona go e lwantsha jalo nako e is to agree to yield or not to agree to yield. Not gore santse e le teng; mosele wa pula o epiwa jalo. ke motho wa mofuta mang. Batho ba mofuta o o fa, ke Se se ntshwenyang thata gompieno ga se gore ga re Batswana, ke Mapalamente a Batswana. Honourable a dira jalo, ke gore ga le lebege le baya lefatshe le Member for Selebi Phikwe East, I think the Honourable mo tseleng e e farologanyeng. A ko o bone sengwe Member has already yielded. Have you? gape ke se fa ke bua ka political experience. Go ne MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR go sa tlhokafale gore bongwanake fa ba tsena sekole, MOLEFHI): On a point of clarification. Ke ne ke re boDumelang ka gore ga a yo fa, le bo le re le tla a ba ke botse Motlotlegi Gilson Saleshando gore o nyalanya ntsenyetsa sekole. jang mafoko a a a buang gompieno, a a reng re ka bo HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… ba bangwe re sa ba duelelele thuto le mafoko a a mo maitlamong a party e a e eteletseng pele, a a reng bone MR G. SALESHANDO: Mma ke bue fela ke re ke ba ka paka ya bone ya puso e tla a nna thuto ya mahala e itsenyeditse sekole go ya go ema golo gongwe… e patelediwang.

MR SPEAKER: I would crave your indulgence Sa bobedi ke se a reng re tshwanelwa ke gore re kgethise Honourable Member holding the floor not to address batho gore ba tle ba itse gore ba tshwanelwa ke gore ba side remarks. Otherwise, they will confuse the flow of tseye boikarabelo. Se a se buang se se farologana fa kae debate. le mogopolo o Tona a re o beileng pele gompieno?

MR G. SALESHANDO: Se ke lekang go se bua ke MR G. SALESHANDO: Ke a leboga. Go tla a raya gore, yone mind-set e, e ntse e teng. Le gompieno jaana, gore ka ga re tlhokane gope, wena le nna fa re tswa fa go na le bana ba le bantsi ba re ba tsenyang sekole ba go re nne fa fatshe re rutane ka manifesto wa Botswana sa tlhokafaleng gore re ba duelele. Mma ke dirise sekai ka Congress Party (BCP) Mokaulengwe. ngwana wa ga Wynter, ga go tlhokafale gore re tsenyetse Wynter ngwana sekole kwa primary. Ga go tlhokafale Point ya me e nngwe e ke tsenang mo go yone ka ke gore Dumelang re mo tsenyetse bana sekole, le a itse ka tsamaela go fetsa, gore ba bangwe ba tle ba arabe ke gore o ka kgona go ba itsenyetsa sekole. Fa o dira jalo, I ya school fees. Nna ke tsaya gore e important. Le fa know se ke se buang se controversial ga kere? e le gore e ka tsosa modumo ka nako e e dirwang ka

Hansard No 163 Part 4 61 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

yone, kwa bofelong ke tsela e e siameng. A e dirwa ke 46 (1) as you debate. Maybe I would say it has this Botswana Democratic Party (BDP), Botswana National to say “A Member shall restrict his observation to the Front (BNF) and BCP in the interest ya development ya subject matter under discussion and shall not introduce lefatshe, ga go na sepe se se kwadilweng mo lentsweng matter irrelevant to that subject.” I am not ruling you gore se nnetse ruri. BoMotlotlegi Kedikilwe ba di itse as irrelevant, but I want you to observe that once you thata dilo tse. Sengwe le sengwe se na le nako ya gore start straying off too much from the matter under se ka sekasekwa fa se sekwasekwa. discussion, you turn to incite the Chair to take that decision. Please proceed. Ke ne ke bua ka school fees le food basket gore re sentse thata mo go tsone. Tse dingwe mongwe o ne MR G. SALESHANDO: I thank you Mr Speaker. I a bua ka commissions. Go senngwa madi, fa gongwe am making very valid points. go tsewa batho kwa mafatsheng a sele ba tlile go dira commission mono, go duelwa madi a a gakgamatsang. Se sengwe se e leng gore motho o ka feta ka sone, Nna ke mongwe wa batho ba ba neng ba tseelwa ka bokhutshwane re nne re dira dilo tse ka caution. batho kwa South Africa le Rre Kavindama re tlile go Expenditure e re tsenang mo go yone re itse gore e raya tlhotlhomisiwa. Go setse go fetile more than ten years eng ka moso. maduo a commission eo a ise a tswe, ke tshenyegelo. Ya bofelo ka re bua ka to slash expenditure. Nna matlho HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (LT. GEN. a me fa a bona dipalo a tshwana le Mosarwa a le mo MERAFHE): On a point of elucidation. Thank you sekgweng. Mosarwa fa a le mo sekgweng o leba all very much my friend for yielding the floor for me. directions. So nna fa ke bona dipalo le fa di le fale, ke Mr Speaker, I just want to plead with the Member gore ke batla go itse gore palo e le e raya eng. Ke itse holding the floor to try and look at the bigger picture gore ke tla a arabiwa. Go na le potso e ke e boditseng, and also put this issue in proper perspective. We may ya gore tsala ya me Minister wa Lands and Housing a have made 101 mistakes in terms of the management ko a mpolelele gore how much do we spend fa re agela of our economy over the years, and I am prepared to Minister ntlo ya bonno? Matlho ame a ne a nneela palo grant him. In fact we will not be normal human beings e e rileng ke e leba ka bo kere ‘eih! what is happening if we are completely immune from fallibility. We all here?’ Le gale ke tla a e etela ka nako e e tla a arabiwang make mistakes and we may have made mistakes. We ka yone. Ke raya gore ga go tlhokafale gore re tsene mo must look at the past, I have no problem with looking ditshenyegelong tse e leng gore di tla a oketsa deficit. Fa at the past. The past must only be used as a point of re sa dire jaaka fa ke bua jaana, P12 billion ga se sepe le reference. It is in the future where all of us expect to a itse. P12 billion jaaka fa re fetisitse budget, re bo re ya spend the rest of outlives, not in the past. go nna le initiative tse di 101 tse di seyong on budget. Re bo re tsamaya re ya to finance, P12 billion o ka nna a There are certain realities that are starring us in the double if you have budgeted gore deficit e ya go nna P12 eyes as we are talking today. We have got a deficit of billion. E ka nna ya felela e le P24 billion. Ke selo e leng P12 billion, the question is how do we finance it? Let gore se ka diragala ka fa ke bonang le splash madi ka us not trivialise this matter by narrowing it to issues teng, ka tsela e le ratang ka yone. Ke one mathata a me of addressing poverty and all these other issues. The ga kere borra, ke a gana. Ke gana go letlelela Tona gore picture is much broader than that. a fiwe 2per cent gore a tsamaye a ye go rwesa morwalo batho ba ba senang molato. MR G. SALESHANDO: With due respect, picture e ke e lebileng is even much broader than you can imagine, President mongwe kwa United States of America gatwe because it is economic. It is economic mismanagement. o kile a raya batho a re, ‘le seka la botsa gore goromente So fa ke bua ka commissions tse di fetileng, fa mind- o le direla eng, ipotseng gore lona le direla eng lefatshe set e le gore ke e e leng gore re kaya go tabola madi la lona’. Ke potso ya bogologolo, ke wa nako ele. ra dira sa gore, mongwe o ka nna. Jaaka ke bonye mo Gompieno ga go bodiwe jalo, gatwe, ‘are you able to pampiring gore go na le setlhopha sa barati phathi sa deliver’. Jaanong fa e le gore se o gakologelwang gore re se dira party, a re bitse ditlhopho re se ntsheng. O to deliver is to create poverty, go raya gore you are not bo o tsamaya o ya go tsaya a lot of money ka gore o a fit and proper person to be in government. Ke na le tlwaetse, o ka nna wa dira jalo. O sa gadime sepe kwa tsholofelo ya gore mind-set ga o simologe out of this morago o bo o bodulala fela o dira sone se o tlwaetseng Honourable House, o tshwanetse wa simologa gone fa. go se dira. So ke caution... Ka fa re lebang dilo ka teng re le Mapalamente. Re ipolelele gore ga go tlhokafale gore ke le Minister, ka MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, I would crave moso ke ka agelwa ntlo ya P4 million, for example. indulgence in your debate to observe Standing Order Ke itse gore, gore P4 million a tle mo ntlong ya me

62 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) fela, jaanong fa e le gore re 15 ke boP4 million ba le mengwe gape e e leng gore ke ya lekgetho. Kana 15. Go raya eng, more deficit and VAT ka moso. Re lekgetho ga se la VAT fela, fa e le gore ke metswedi e ya go tsenya matsogo a rona mo dipateng tsa batho re e leng gore it will be attracting cost recovery ka nngwe tsaya bo1 per cent wa VAT re mmaya mo mokwatleng tsela e se cost savings, e tla a raya gore ke e e leng gore wa ga Motlotlegi Gaborone, re bo re re, “mo rwale ka e tswa madi, mme madi ao a tswa mo go ba e leng gore gore re ka go rwesa sengwe le sengwe se re ka go se ba tla a bo ba akola services tse di rileng. Ke re gongwe rwesang.” Go raya gore re tsamaile ka tsela e, for too o re fetisetse ka gore ke metswedi ya sebopego sefe e e long jaanong re tlwaetse. I am afraid, there is no way leng gore e tla a bo e sa amane gope le gore ope a ntshe I can give the blessing for you Honourable Members sepe a tsenye mo letloleng. to go and make matters and create more poverty for batho ba lefatshe le. Ka mafoko a a kalo Mr Speaker, a MR MAKGALEMELE: Ke a leboga Mokaulengwe me a tla a felela gone fa. Motlotlegi Tsogwane. Metswedi Rraetsho ke tseela gore e mentsi. E mengwe e ka nna e e tla a tswang MR MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): Ke a leboga gongwe mo go rona, e mengwe e tla a seke e tswe mo Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Kopo e re e go rona. Se ke lekang go se supa ke gore, Tona a dire beilweng pele ke Tona, ke kgang e e botlhokwa thata. dipatlisiso tse di tseneletseng ka metswedi e mengwe e Ke amogela gore Tona o re supegeditse gore fa a tla a re ka e bonang e e ka re thusang go tsamaisa itsholelo goroga kwa tshwetsong e, o ne a lebelela mabaka kana ya lefatshe la rona. Sekai Rraetsho, fa ke araba mafoko ditsela di le mmalwa tse a ka bong a ne a di tsere go a budget ke ne ka bua ka gore ke santse ke dumela leka go itebaganya le madi a a tlhaelang a go tsamaisa gore le tollgates re tshwanetse gore re bone gore re ka ditogamaano tsa rona mo ngwageng wa 2010/2011. tswa ka thulaganyo e e ntseng jang e e faphegileng ya teng. Ke a itse fa Tona Mme Motsumi a santse a le kwa Gape ke amogela gore go oketsa ka sekale sa bobedi mo Lephateng la Transport gone mo Palamenteng e, ke ise lekgolong, go tla a re thusa gore re kgone go bona madi ke tsene mo go yone o ne a araba potso a bo a supa gore a a kana ka P700 million. A e leng gore fa o lebeletse ga re ise re tle mo sebakeng sa gore re ka kgona go nna bophara jwa madi a a tlhaelang, e tla a nna selekanyo se le thulaganyo ya tollgates. Ke akanya gore nako e tlile se botlana. Se tla a thusa go fokotsa selekanyo sa madi ya gore kgang ya teng, re ka e lebelela go bona gore re a a tlhaelang ao. Jaaka fa e rile ke araba mafoko a gago ka kgontsha jang gore batho ba ba tsamayang ka dikoloi Tona, fa o ne o re baya pele budget ya rona ya 2010/2011, gongwe re ka ba kgethisa ka tsela e e ntseng jang e e ka go ema nokeng ka ba ka re it is a necessary evil. Ke faphegileng, e tsamaelana le kgang ya tollgates. dumela gore o ne o sena diphatlha kana ditsela tse di kalo kalo tse o neng o ka di tsaya. Tona, e re ke go ema Kwa dikhanseleng ke dumela gore go santse go na le nokeng ke re, ke eletsa gore dilo dingwe o di lebelele metswedi e mengwe. Ditlhotlhomiso tse ke di dirileng ka bokete jwa tsone. Kgang ya metswedi ya madi a Rraetsho di supile gore, e re ntswa dikhansele ka bontsi mangwe a puso ke eletsa gore o e lebelele. Ke eletsa di ka dira madi ka street pole advertising le tse dingwe, gore o re tlhomamisetse Tona gore o tla a ya go dira fa o lebelela projections tse ba di dirileng tsa ngwaga ditlhotlhomiso tse di tseneletseng tsa metswedi ya madi, wa budget e re e buisanang mo Palamenteng, bangwe e e ka oketsang letlole la madi a rona a re tsamaisang ba dikhansele ga ba a supa revenue e e leng gore ba ditlhabololo ka one le budget. O tla a gakologelwa Tona ya go e dira ka adverts, tse e leng gore di akaretsa le gore kgantele ke ne ke boditse ba Local Government, yone street pole advertising. Kgang e ke lekang go e metswedi ya bone kwa dikhanseleng, mme e bile ke supa ke gore, go santse go na le metswedi e mentsi ya lebogela Motlotlegi Tshireletso ka fa a arabileng potso madi e re ka e dirisang e e ka re thusang gore re oketse ka teng ka bophara jwa yone. Nna ke dumela gore madi a lefatshe le. Se ke se kopang fela ke gore Tona o metswedi e santse e ntse e ka okediwa e e ka sekeng na le bodiredi jo bo nonofileng ke a itse, a a bo rebole ya re babalela thata. Gongwe ya ba ya re mo nakong gore ba ye go dira ditlhotlhomiso tse di tseneletseng e e tlang, ya ba ya re tlama gore re oketse lekgetho le tsa metswedi e e leng teng e re ka e oketsang go oketsa tshwana la VAT. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, madi a a tsenang mo letloleng la puso. ke santse ke tshwenyega gore re le lefatshe la Botswana, re na le madi a mantsi a re a kolotiwang go na le... Ke tsena mo go ya collections. Ke re ke santse ke dumela gore re le lefatshe la Botswana, re kolotiwa madi a MR TSOGWANE: On a point of clarification Mr mantsi a e leng gore ga re a collect. Go na le madi a Speaker. Thank you Honourable Member. Ke re gongwe student loans. Go supafetse gore a santse a le mantsi. o re thuse fa ka kgang ya metswedi mengwe. Kana fa Ke a itse Tona Venson-Moitoi o re tlhomamiseditse gore re nna re bua ka metswedi mengwe mme re sa tlhalose ke nngwe ya dikgang tse a tla a di salang morago. Fa o sentle, e tla a fitlhela gongwe e bo e nna metswedi ka lebelela ke kgang e e tsereng lebaka le yone, madi a

Hansard No 163 Part 4 63 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

go nna jalo a ntse a sa salwe morago gore a phuthiwe. those who will be or otherwise mostly affected, the poor Jaanong go bo go fitlhela e le gore fa seemo se tla go people. He has broadened the base, he has zero rated nna jaana re lebelela motswedi o o tshwanang le wa go most of those products which are needed and required oketsa VAT. Fa gongwe batho ba felela ba belaela gore on a daily basis by the poor people in our districts. re felela re ya kwa go bone, mme go na le golo gongwe kwa re ka bong re ne re ile teng like mo collections I know some people may say okay that might not be gore re ye go batla madi a a neng a ka thusa go fokotsa enough. But if you are to increase VAT on luxury cars, itsholelo ya rona gore e seka ya babalelwa. Jaanong ke yes it might in one way or the other affect everyone. go kope Tona gore, ke a itse kgang e ke e buile gantsi But that is a pro-poor consideration because really we mme ke batla go e gatelela gore e nne nngwe ya dilo tse are looking at those people who have the choice and e leng gore o di sala morago gore e re fa re tla re lebelela the capacity to pay. budget ya 2011/2012, e bo e le nngwe ya dilo tse e o Just as today we know there are people who can send re tlhomamisetsang gore o di setse morago. E bile o re their children to private schools, making a deliberate supegetse maduo a gore o dirile dipatlisiso mme e bile choice to do so not because they do not have places in dipatlisiso tsa go nna jalo, di supile gore re ka ya kae le public schools, just because they have the capacity to kae. Mme ka Bakaulengwe ba supa gore ba batla go bua, do so. We should also thank those people because they ke ne ke re ke eme ka a le kalo ke re, ke go ema nokeng also help the government so that the government can Tona. Tsamaya o ye go bereka thata gore re kgone gore continue to cater for those who cannot afford. It is a re kgobokanye re gatele kwa pele, re tlhabolole lefatshe situation of trying to tax one who can afford in order to le re le ise kwa pele. Ke lebogile. help those who cannot afford. I know you have given MR TSOGWANE (BOTETI NORTH): Ke a leboga us a list here of the agricultural implements which will Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. I just want not attract VAT, that is a good move. This is not the to be very, very brief. Honourable Speaker, indeed it only tax you have dropped, you have also increased the is a weighty matter before this House as you clearly threshold so that those who are not well paid, can also indicated, but it is a matter that we have no way out of. be exempted from tax, it is a good move. Nevertheless We have to face it. Mr Speaker, we know it is not a nice thing, when you talk about tax. Do not expect people to just say well Other Members were talking about the mistakes that it is alright. Obviously you will meet resistance, but have been made in the past. But if those mistakes indeed depending on the basis why you are doing it and the were made in the past, we will never conclude this matter benefits that people will derive at the end of the day, in a manner that will benefit Batswana today. We must then you have to balance the two. face this matter as a challenge. We must all know that it is a matter that we have to deal with if we are to have MR MOREMI: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. our people live well in the future or have developments Ke ne ke re ke botse Honourable Tsogwane gore fa a in the future. Otherwise if we are to fold our arms and re ke good move go oketsa threshold ya VAT, a o a say, okay the best thing to do is to defer projects. As that lemoga gore ba ba ka fa tlase ga threshold e ga ba na could be one of the things that we possibly could do, to go kgona to recover VAT e ba e duelang mo inputs tsa face out projects or drop them because we do not have bone? Thank you. any hope that the economy will in its own, improve in MR TSOGWANE: We are talking at cross purposes the near future. Then if that is the route that we want Honourable Member. Ke ne ke sa reye go oketsa to take as Members of Parliament or this House I think threshold ya VAT, I am saying the threshold ya lekgetho. we have the choice to do so. But if we have the choice Gore batho ba e leng gore ga ba kgethe gompieno, ba to face it, buy the bullet and say we find ourselves in ba ntsi go na le maloba. Fa o lebile the last time re this situation but we have to resolve it and make sure oketsa gore nnyaa mme jaanong ba ba amogelang that some of the projects that our people were to benefit bokana, ba seka ba duela lekgetho. I think that was from, would possibly come back if we are to improve a good move, that is what I am saying. Ke gore ke the situation which is facing our economy today, then dingwe dilo tse e leng gore the Minister in the past, we have to take that route. There is no sitting on the was so considerate to do. fence when we come to this matter, we have to deal with it now once and for all. So I know it was a windfall by then. But the windfall means that in bad times you have to face the On the basis of that Mr Speaker, I think we have to consequences. If you have enjoyed that in the past, face this increment of 2 per cent. We also must thank therefore it is time now that you also have to buy the Minister that at least he has taken consideration of the bullet and take tough decisions. I am saying Mr

64 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

Speaker, as I have said, and indicated to the Minister tshwantshanya dilo tse pedi tse di sa tshwaneng. Ke gore that it is not something that people would accept easily. o ya go tsaya mmutla o bo o tla o o baya fa, o bo o re nnyaa But as I have said based on the reasons, as Honourable mmutla o o tshwana le tlou, fa o di lebile gone fa. Jaanong Members we said our projects have been deferred. ke dilo tse pedi tse o ka se keng wa di tshwantshanya. Ke Some of our projects if this threshold of 2 per cent is one mabaka a ke ntseng ke re ke a supe. not going to be implemented, some of the projects will be forfeited, they will never come back. Mr Speaker, fa ke tla mo kakanyong ya me, le nna ke tshwana fela le ba bangwe ba ba supileng gore fela What I am saying Honourable Minister is that, as the jaaka le mo polelong ya ga Tona ya kabo ya madi, situation improves, please go back and revisit National ke ne ka supa jalo gore tota koketso e ya 2 per cent, Development Plan and bring back most of the projects nna ga ke dumalane le yone, ga ke e amogele. Re that you have promised to bring. That is my plea. If there supile jalo Mr Speaker gore, jaaka go ntse go buiwa is need, you will also be taking stock of the base. If there ka gore re tseetse badirelapuso dithata tsa go reka le is need to broaden the base further, do so considering go itebaganya le botshelo. Ra ba ra supa re le bantsi other important assets that you may think you need to Mapalamente ba re neng re bua gore, gongwe fa Tona a zero rate, depending on how much the situation will ka bo a sekasekile 5 per cent increase ya badirelapuso, improve. I think with those few remarks, I do support gongwe e ne e tla a bo e le sengwe se gongwe ba ne ba you and I am saying people must understand that we are ka akanyetsa fa godimo ga sone. not supporting just for the sake of supporting. We are supporting because there are good reasons why this 2 Re kopile jalo gore e re mo lebakeng le, go nne le a per cent has to be added. I thank you Minister. salaries review commission go ka seka seka seemo se. Tumelo ya me ke gore go ya ka fa lefatshe la Botswana le MR NSHIMWE (CHOBE): Tanki Motsamaisa ntseng le kaiwa ka teng mo itsholelong, ka fa e ntseng e Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke dumela gore re mo tla e ntse ka teng, gotwe ke itsholelo e e fa gare. Go lebega kgannyeng ya moruthutha. Re ntse re akanya ka e le gore conditions tse di beilweng ke boInternational go farologana, re leka go baya mabaka otlhe a a Monetary Fund (IMF) le boWorld Bank, mo mafatsheng tshwanetseng. Gore gongwe lekgetho la VAT, le nne go adima madi mo dibankeng tse, Botswana o lebega a sa teng kana le seka la nna teng. Go boammaaruri, e bile amege thata. Gore some of their conditions, ka fa itsholelo ga re latole gore itsholelo ya mafatshe le ya rona e ya Botswana e ntseng e tla e seka sekwa ka teng, go a le mo teng, ga e amege. E a amega. E amegile. Ke bonala gore bothata jwa go ka adima mo this financial sone se Tona a supang fa gore, go oketsa VAT ka 2 per institutions, ga bo yo mo go kalokalo. Mo e leng gore 5 cent, go tla a leka go namola seemo se re lebaganyeng per cent yo fa a ne a tsene, ke dumela gore fa e le gore go le sone. Go lebilwe jalo gore, re ya go phutha P700 a tlhaela, jaaka le gompieno Bills di le fa, re kopa madi million mo godimo ga tlhaelo ya P12 kana P13 billion. kwa dibankeng tsone tse re adima, le gone go ne go ka E le mabaka a mongwe le mongwe a ka a utlwisisang. kgonagala. Ke tumelo ya me. Mme re lebile gore mo lebakeng le lotlhe, itsholelo ya lefatshe la Botswana fela jaaka re ntse re bua ka dinako Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, mathata a tsotlhe gore, e ikaegile thata ka ditswammung kana ka me ke gore ke tswa mo kgaolong e e leng gore it is a diteemane. Ke tsone tse gompieno e reng jaanong di sa paradise of wealth. Chobe is a paradise of wealth and tlhole di rekwa sentle, di bo di re tsenya mo mathateng at the same time batho ba yone, are the poorest people a re leng mo go one gompieno. in this country. Ka mathata a gore, itsholelo ya lefatshe le e ntse e sa goroge kwa go bone sentle. Tona mo polelong ya gagwe o supa jalo gore, 12 per cent yo rona re buang ka ene kana koketso ya 2 per Fa o tsaya kgaolo ya Chobe, gompieno jaana ke nna le cent, e kwa tlase thata mo mafatsheng a re tshelang le mathata Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Gore, one, ka gore one a phutha bo14 per cent jalo jalo. Fa ke eme fa ke re nnyaa, batho ba Chobe ga ba na mathata ke leba mafatshe a a buang ka one a a phuthang bo14 ba itumetse gore a re oketseng ka 2 per cent, go tswa per cent, ke leba population ya one, ke fitlhela e le mo go 10 go ya kwa go 12 per cent wa VAT. Tota ke tla gore, le fa a amegile, ke ka gore batho kana population a bo ke sa bue se batho ba Chobe ba se batlang kana se ya mafatshe a, e kwa godimo thata thata go na le ya ba leng sone. Mathata a me ke gore... rona. Mafatshe a mangwe a tsamaya bo15 million, 35 MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS million, 50 million, even more than that. DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): Fa e le gore re ya go itshwantshanya le bone, rona re On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Ke a leboga tsamaisa batho ba ba kana ka toropo ya Harare, kana Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke a leboga motse wa Motare, kwa Zimbabwe. Tota re tla a bo re Mokaulengwe. Ke ne ke re ke ko ke botse Mokaulengwe

Hansard No 163 Part 4 65 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

gore, kgang e ya madi a lekgetho, a re lebala gore MR NSHIMWE: Nnyaa, Mr Speaker, ke a gana. Mo lekgetho ke selo se e leng gore mo ditsamaisong tsa botshelong jwa bone jotlhe fela, 43 years ya boipuso rona fela le pele ga goromente a tsena, e ne e le selo jwa lefatshe la Botswana, batho ba Chobe ba ntse se e leng gore tlhogo nngwe le nngwe ya lelwapa, ba duelela thuto ya lefatshe le ba sena dikole tse ba ke maikarabelo a yone gore lekgetho le duelwe? Le neng ba ka isa bana ba bone kwa go tsone, ka jalo le duelelwa gore morafe o tle o dire sekole kana sengwe mebereko e mennye mo kgaolong ya bone. fela. Lekgetho le ntse jalo. Ke gore ke tshwenngwa ke kgang e e reng, o kare goromente wa gompieno, o HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of clarification. tsenya lekgetho go sotla Batswana. Ga re boele kwa MR NSHIMWE: Nnyaa, ke sa le ke ganne. I am not kgannyeng ya gore lekgetho ke setso sa rona sa morafe, yielding, ke a gana, le ntlogeleng fela ke bue jaaka le fa o batla go itirela madi. Ke ne ke botsa kgang e gore, ne le bua. Seemo se go thata gore ke dumalane le sone. a ga e sa tlhola e le teng? Mr Speaker, fa ke re Chobe is a paradise of wealth e MR NSHIMWE: Go ntse jalo, go ne go ntse jalo le e leng gore e ne e ka thusa itsholelo ya lefatshe le, the bogologolo. Gongwe fa o ka tsaya ditso tsa bogologolo, economy e e neng e ka tswa mo kgaolong ya Chobe, e ga se tsa gompieno. Botshelo jwa malatsi a gompieno ne e ka nna madi a a fetang P700 million yo gompieno ga se jwa maloba. Batho bogologolo ba ne ba tshela re buang ka ene. Ka go reng? thata ka temo le leruo. Mebereko e gompieno e leng ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TRADE AND teng e e leng gore ke yone e re beileng thata mo go INDUSTRY (MR MOTOWANE): Point of elucidation. yone,e ne e seyo. Jaanong ka mabaka ao, ke ne ke re ke Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke tsena mo kgaolong ya me ya Chobe. Ke re ke supe gore utlwa Mopalamente sentle gore, batho ba Chobe ba tswa Rraetsho, kgaolo ya me fa e ne e le gore dikakanyo kgakala ba sena dikole. Le tumalano ya Palamente ya tse Rraetsho Motlotlegi Saleshando a ntseng a bua ka maloba e re tswang mo go yone mo malatsing a se kae, ya tsone, di ne tsa nna teng, tsa dirisiwa ga akanngwa go dumela gore go ye go agiwa airport e tona tona kwa broadly, ke dumela gore kgaolo ya Chobe ke nngwe Chobe, ke mo utlwa sentle gore se a se rayang ke gore, ya dikgaolo tse e leng gore gompieno, e ka bo e le re seka ra akanya gore re tla a tla re bona madi kae a go gore itsholelo ya lefatshe le e a tsabakela, e a bonala. duela loan eo a airport e a neng a e amogela a e boka. O a itse gore pele ga bojanala bo simolola bo gola mo lefatsheng la Botswana, the beef industry e ne e le yone Ke mo utlwa sentle gape gore jaaka go tlhokafala borogo e ne e loma diteemane serota, mo itsholelong ya rona. kwa Kasane le Kazungula, jo le jone bo tshwanetseng gore bo duelelwe. Bo duelelwa ke motho a le kwa Kachikau HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of clarification kana le fa a le kwa Salajwe, ba pataganela ditlhabololo Mr Speaker. tsa Botswana. Gore ke utlwa sentle Mopalamente gore MR NSHIMWE: Nnyaa, ke a gana. Gompieno a re nnyaa, batho ba seka ba nna le seabe gotlhelele mo bojanala ke jwa bobedi mo diteemaneng mo lefatsheng go dueleleng ditlhabololo tse di tswang kwa Chobe, ba la rona, bo fetile the Beef Industry. Mme bojanala jo, phuthe mabogo, ba lele ba tlogele. Ke a mo utlwa. bontsi jwa jone bo mo kgaolong ya Chobe, e e leng MR NSHIMWE: Thank you Mr Speaker. gore bontsi jwa teng bo mo diatleng tsa batswakwa, beng gae ba bo bona ka matlho. Ba utlwa bo nkga jaaka MR SPEAKER: Wait a minute, that was not an onion. Mme fa gompieno o ba raya o re tsamayang le elucidation, it was more of a clarification. So, I think ye go duela VAT, selo sa ntlha ba le mo kgaolong e e we must learn to respect the rules of the House, if it is leng gore it is a red zone. Dikgomo tsa bone ga go na elucidation, you are elucidating to a member, if you are kwa ba di rekisang teng, diphologolo tsa bojanala, di seeking clarification, that is different. ba jela dijwalo le dikgomo tsa bone. Compensation e MR NSHIMWE: Thank you very much. Mma ke e dirwang mo go bone e le ya boP2 le P5. Jaanong, ba seka ka tsena mo go yone, o setse o e tlhalositse Mr ya go bona kae madi? The larger population ya batho Speaker. Se ke se tlhalosang gompieno fa e ne e le gore ba Chobe, ke ba ba ikaegileng ka one mohamanyana o Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Letlhakane ka fa ntlheng mosesane wa temo le leruo. Jaanong it is very difficult e nngwe o nkutlwa sentle, ke ne ke re khumo e e mo for me Mr Speaker, to stand here and support gore kgaolong ya Chobe ...(Interruption)... batho ba Chobe, ba ya go duela VAT ka 12 per cent for the rest of their independence. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): On a HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of point of procedure Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. clarification. What I hear is tedious repetition of one point over and

66 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) over again. Much as you were guiding us on points MR NSHIMWE: Mr Speaker, ke lemoga gore of elucidation against clarification, can you guide the Batlotlegi le Matona ba na le mathata a bone. Ka gore debate. The debate is not about the economy of the ke ne ka bona ka nako ya ga Honourable Mmolotsi Chobe Enclave or Chobe District, it is about whether gore, le gone ke sone se ba neng ba se dira. Mme tota or not to permit the Minister of Finance to implement tota ga ke itse mathata a bone… an increase by two per cent on the current VAT that we have. Thank you Mr Speaker. MR RAKHUDU: On a point of order Mr Speaker. Nna fa fatshe, it is a point of order, ga o na choice, it is MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, a point of order, you sit. the Honourable Member for Gaborone North is right, we stray too much re ntse re re re a ala. Obviously MR SPEAKER: Honourable Rakhudu, just a minute. the request ke approval of increase ya VAT. If you Order! Order! There is only one speaker in this House are making a case that you are not supporting, do it at a time. Therefore when you stand on a point of as briefly as you can and then resume your seat. But order, you only indicate that and then you wait for the otherwise what I detest and observe happening is, Speaker to call you. You have got no authority to order people tend to violate Standing Order 43 by making anybody to sit down, that you must note. On what point running commentary. By standing up on that point Honourable Rakhudu? of procedure Honourable Rakhudu, you have done MR RAKHUDU: On a point of order Mr Speaker. I the correct thing and I encourage Members to do that thank you. Let me thank you for your indulgence Mr instead of making a running commentary. Resume the Speaker, I stand on a point of order. The Honourable floor Honourable Member and please observe that Member for Chobe risks being out of order and making Standing Order 46 (1). this House out of order. You have made a ruling to MR NSHIMWE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Kana re direct him on two occasions and he wants to justify bua ka kgang e e leng gore bothata jwa rona ke gore why he will not abide by that guidance. When he does itsholelo ya rona kana madi a re tshwanelwang ke gore that, he risks putting the House out of order and I think re nne le one go ka tsweledisa ditlhabololo tsa rona, a you should order him to take your advice and follow a tlhaela. Tlhaelo e re batla go e oketsa ka VAT ya two the procedure. I thank you very much Mr Speaker Sir. per cent. Mme re leka go supa gore go na le mehama e MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, mengwe ya botlhokwa ya itsholelo, e e leng gore e ka I made a plea. A plea is an initial step towards ordering bo e lebilwe ya dirwa, e e ka phuthang more than P700 the Member as out of order. When I do that, I know million. This is what I am trying to point out. Jaaka some of us are still learning and we have to bear that in gompieno ke le raya ke re, fa e ne e le gore our mind- mind. Honourable Nshimwe, the debate is about increase sets jaaka fela Honourable Saleshando a ne a bua, di of VAT. Anything else that you are saying becomes ne di bulegile enough, broadly go ya ka nna, gompieno secondary. Please, proceed and observe Standing Order jaana... (Interruption)... 46 (1) or else you are now inviting me to rule you as out MR TSOGWANE: Point of procedure. Thank you Mr of order and if I do that I will even take away your floor. Speaker. I think this House must really listen to your MR NSHIMWE: Ke dumela gore mabaka a me a guidance. You have just given guidance and you have matona ke gore VAT e re buang ka yone, ke VAT e tried by all means to request Members who are taking e tshwanetseng ya itebaganya le itsholelo ya lefatshe the floor to be very close to the subject on the table, la Botswana, jaaka fela Tona a supile gore re na le but they seem to be justifying why they have to wonder mathata. Mme mathata a a dirilwe ke eng? Lebaka la around. I do not know whether it is procedural. go oketsa VAT ka two per cent ke eng? A go ne go sena MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, you are right sepe se re neng re ka se akanya, a ga go na sepe se re because really during the general debate on the Budget, neng re ka se bua ra se leba se le botlhokwa? that is where we had to make case for our constituencies. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Nshimwe, Order! Order! Here really, if we are to be productive, we should have Ke tsaya gore if you have a suggestion, do not pose a long disposed of this matter but we want to resuscitate question, gore a go ne go sena sepe. If you have listened the debate indirectly under the auspices that we are to Honourable Saleshando, he had suggestions to put debating an increase in VAT. But I am trying to really say forth. Do that for the Minister’s consumption. Maybe to you Honourable Members, try and observe Standing you can persuade the House to agree with you, but do Order 46 (1). Otherwise, if you continue with repetition, not just pose questions, one after another without any you risk being ordered as irrelevant and out of order. suggestion. Please Honourable Member, proceed. Please proceed Honourable Member.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 67 Tuesday 30th March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN RATE OF TAX) ORDER, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate)

MR NSHIMWE: Kana ke sone se ke neng ke se supa to ask you to move if you do not move yourselves. gore, mehama ya itsholelo mo lefatsheng le, e e leng gore Thank you. Tona o ne a ka e leba, ke efe. Mehama ya itsholelo ga e mo Southern Region fela, le kwa Northern Region e teng. MR NSHIMWE: Rraetsho, ga go tlhokafale fela jaaka Re batla go supa jalo gore mehama e, ke ya botlhokwa e e Batlotlegi ba bangwe ba ne ba bua… neng e ka lebiwa. Ya kgona gore fa re bua ka gore jaanong MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, if re wetswe ke seru, re mo mathateng re tlhoka gore re ye you have anything to stand upon, you apply the provisions go tsena mo dipateng tsa Batswana, re ye go ba kgethisa of Standing Order 43 and do not shout from your seats. If VAT, gongwe re ka bo re lebile mehama e, ra e tlhabolola. you do that, you are rendering the House out of order and Ya tla e nonne go ka oketsa itsholelo ya rona. Ke sone disorderly. Please observe that Standing Order. se ke neng ke se bua. Mehama e ke efe Mr Speaker? Ke sone se ke neng ke batla go feta ka sone. Ke mehama e e MR NSHIMWE: Ke tsamaela go wela, ke gore fela leng gore jaaka re supa gompieno jaana, fa ke bua ka gore gongwe ba na le mathata. Mmang ke wele. kwa Chobe ke kgaolo ya khumo e tona, ke re gompieno Bagaetsho, ke bona mo mabakeng otlhe a a setseng fa e ne e le gore re na le mo gotweng ke Fishing Industry, a tlhalositswe, le ka fa seemo sa itsholelo ya rona se re ka bo re sa bue dilo tse, re ka bo re itse gore re na le ntseng ka teng, le ka fa tota re paletsweng ka teng gore mohama o motona. Fa re ne re bua ka temo e e teng kwa mehama e mengwe ya itsholelo e ka bo gompieno jaana Chobe le mmu o o nonneng, e ka bo e le gore jaanong e thusitse, gongwe jaaka diteemane di wetse kwa tlase temo e, e thusa itsholelo ya lefatshe la Botswana. jaana e bo e ka re thusa gore projects tse go ntseng go MR GABORONE: On a point of procedure. Mr buiwa ka tsone, di bo di sa salela kwa morago. Re nne Speaker, Honourable Members on the other side o kare le madi. Mo kgaolong ya me ya Chobe le bagaetsho ba kgatlhiwa ke gore jaanong ba confuse Honourable botlhe ba ba neng ba bua… Nshimwe a bua. Ke gore fela fa a bua lentswe Chobe, o HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of clarification. kare o dirile molato and ga go na molato. Ba a bua fa ba filwe sebaka dinako tse tsotlhe tse. Jaanong ga ke itse MR NSHIMWE: I am not yielding, ke a fetsa. gore molato ke eng, and a lot of them are Ministers. Go thata gore re amogele this increase ya 2 per cent HONOURABLE MEMBER: You are not on the ka gore we are a rich area and yet a poor area mo floor, o a e reka? bathong ba ba tshelang mo go yone. Ka gore mathata a bone a mantsi mo e leng gore go ba tsenyetsa 2 per MR GABORONE: Ee, ke a e reka. cent ke go ba bolaela kwa pele. Ga ba ka ke ba kgona MR SPEAKER: Yes, you are right Honourable ka gore jaaka ke supile, ba ba berekang palo ya bone e Member, because we cannot continue with such running kwa tlase. Ba ba tshelang ka leruo le temo, diphologolo commentary, noises made across the floor. It disrupts di a ba jela, di ba bolaela leruo la bone. the orderliness of the House. Honourable Members MR MMOLOTSI: Point of order Mr Speaker. Motsamaisa both sides, please observe our Standing Orders. Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke tshwenyegile ka gore Tona MR NSHIMWE: Ke raya gore Mr Speaker, mabaka a Venson-Moitoi is threatening me with a sign e e dirang me a nonofile, a tlhamaletse. jaana (demonstrating). This thing Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke threat to kill. Ke raya gore... MR MOTOWANE: On a point of procedure Mr Speaker. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ka HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr boikokobetso, surely go mo Standing Order gore fa Speaker. boeteledipele jwa Ntlo e, bo sena go nna bo re reetsa MR SPEAKER: A point of order on a point of order. re bua, go na le fa go patikang, fa go tlamang the Chair Ga ke tlhaloganye gore what is it that you are trying to arrive at a conclusion ya gore re a buile and assist to achieve. the House to arrive at a conclusion. Honourable Member, I think as colleagues you do The rate at which we are going, we run the risk Mr gestures across the floor against each other and I am Speaker, go ya kwa le kwa letsatsi le bo le phirima le the least to agree that Honourable Venson-Moitoi can bo le tlhaba. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, threaten to kill you. Proceed Honourable Nshimwe. we pray for profound guidance. MR NSHIMWE: Rraetsho, ke raya gore ka mabaka MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, you are right, one a… the Standing Order provides for that. But I am not going

68 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR SPEAKER: Honourable Nshimwe, in my own MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Before I call for judgement, you have made your points, now you are adjournment of the House, you are being reminded becoming repetitive and irrelevant to the subject. that tomorrow morning at 8.30 a.m. there is an event Therefore, really I would pray for your indulgence to called Earth Hour Event which will take place in observe the Standing Orders. The noise that is coming front of our Parliament building. It starts at 8.30 and about is because we are no longer really relevant to proceeds until 12.30 p.m. You are advised that lunch the point and we are being repetitive. Please take note will be provided at the end of the event. All Members of that. are please requested to attend. Thank you.

MR NSHIMWE: E ke ya ka bomo e ba e dirang e, ke a MOTION ba bona. Mma ke go tlotle Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ka mafoko a, ga ke eme rraetsho nokeng ka ADJOURNMENT koketso e. Ke dumela gore go ntse fela jalo, ke mabaka MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND a me. Mabaka a me a mantsi a ke neng ke ka a supa. WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Jaaka ke a supile jalo rraetsho, ga ke go eme nokeng. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House to now Thank you very much. adjourn.

MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MS Question put and agreed to. MAKGATO-MALESU): Thank you Mr Speaker for giving me the floor. I believe that we have debated this The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 7.00 p.m. until issue long enough. We are now starting to go round in Wednesday 31st March, 2010 at 2.30 p.m. circles and become irrelevant. I therefore want to take Wednesday 31st March, 2010 you back and move that the question be put. Thank you Mr Speaker. THE ASSEMBLY met at 2.30 p.m.

MR MMOLOTSI: Point of order Mr Speaker. The (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) point of order that I am trying to bring forward, Mr Speaker, is that due to the weightiness of this matter, I P R A Y E R S would suggest that people be allowed to debate on this * * * * matter. I thank you. QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, I think I previously ruled using Standing Order 45 (1). PROVISION OF WATER BORNE PUBLIC Now, Honourable Makgato-Malesu has asked me to TOILETS AT DIKGOTLA come back to that decision. My observation is, even though people are going in circles, there are Members MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked representing constituencies who may wish to have their the Minister of Local Government whether given voices heard. That is a fact. Because I am seeing so many health hazards presented by pit latrines in Botswana, of you yielding from this side in particular, therefore, if especially for poor communities in rural areas, he it pleases the House that I invoke this Standing Order, I would consider providing water borne public toilets at think then I must give my assent to it. different dikgotla which different communities could administrate. Question be now put agreed to. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL MR SPEAKER: Now, with that decision, you have GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Ke a taken away the right of the Minister to respond. leboga Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, given health hazards presented by pit latrines in Botswana, especially for Resolution agreed to. communities in rural areas, my Ministry has taken a VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE deliberate decision to provide water borne public toilets IN REGULATIONS THRESHOLD) whenever a new Kgotla office is constructed. Where REGULATIONS, 2010 possible, provision is made through the Ipelegeng Programme to provide water borne public toilets for Resolution old Dikgotla. I thank you Mr Speaker.

MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT COSTS OF CONSTRUCTING A MINISTERIAL PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Mr Speaker, the HOUSE Statutory Instrument...

Hansard No 163 Part 4 69 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR G. SALESHANDO (SELEBI PHIKWE MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE WEST): asked the Minister of Lands and Housing AND TOURISM (MR MOKAILA): Mr Speaker, it how much it costs to construct a Ministerial house. is true that the Shakawe Wildlife and National Parks Offices are not electrified. MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR MOLEFHI): Mr Speaker, Phase 1 of the eight It is however my Ministry’s intention to complete Ministerial houses cost Government a total of Forty the remaining phase, which includes electrification, Two Million, Three Hundred and Forty Six Thousand, hopefully in the 2010/11 financial year, subject to Six Hundred and Ninety Five Pula and Eighty Thebe funding adequacy. I thank you Mr Speaker. (P42, 346,695.80) which translates to Five Million, Two Hundred and Ninety Three Thousand, Three PLANS FOR COMPULSORY BASIC Hundred and Thirty Six Pula, Ninety Eight Thebe (P5, EDUCATION 293,336.98) per house inclusive of VAT and all fees. MR N. M. MODUBULE (LOBATSE): asked the Phase 2 of the project which also has eight houses is Minister of Education and Skills Development when currently ongoing at a total cost of Thirty Nine Million, basic education will be made compulsory in Botswana. One Hundred and Seventy Six Thousand, Two Hundred ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND and Forty Eight Pula, Fifty Four Thebe (P39, 176,248.54) SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): which translates to Four Million, Eight Hundred and Mr Speaker, the Children’s Act of 2009 (specifically Ninety Seven Thousand and Thirty One Pula, Seven Section 18) clearly stipulates that: Thebe (P4, 897,031.07) inclusive of VAT and fees. i) Every child has a right to free basic education. The Ministerial houses recently completed and those under construction have adopted similar plans for High ii) A parent, other relative or guardian who, without Court Judges houses in Lobatse. Ke a leboga. reasonable excuse, denies a child the opportunity of going to school shall be guilty of an offence MR G. SALESHANDO: Ke kopa gore Tona a tlhalose and shall be sentenced to a fine of not less than gore mo mathateng a re leng mo go one, a Phase 2 le P5,000.00, but no more than P10,000.00. yone e ntse e ya go tswelela, fa e le gore ga e ise e tswelele, fa e le gore ga go ise go agiwe? Le gore a With the passing of the Children’s Act, it has become mme o raya gore le wena Mokaulengwe o ya go kgona mandatory for parents to enrol their children for basic go nna mo ntlong ya P5 million, batho kwa Selebi education which in our case is the first ten years of Phikwe ba Ipelegeng ba amogela P30.00 ka kgwedi? schooling. Mr Speaker I believe that what we need is the support of the community to report to relevant authorities MR MOLEFHI: Ke belaela gore ke tla a pitlagana any instances where children are being denied the right mo ntlong ya P5 million. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa to access education. I thank you Mr Speaker. Palamente, Phase 2 ya matlo a Matona a puso e gaufi le go wela, e tla a bo matlo a a ferangbobedi ao, a fediwa MR MODUBULE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa mo kgweding ya July mo ngwageng ono. Matlo a ke Palamente, se ke se boditseng Tona ke gore, a bontlhabongwe jwa thulaganyo e e saleng e simolotswe goromente o na le lenaneo lengwe la go diragatsa gore ka 2008, mme e kgaogantswe dikago tsa yone ka thuto e patelesege, gore ngwana mongwe le mongwe a dingwaga tse pedi ka go latelelana ga tsone. Ke gone tsene sekole? Ga ke a mmotsa ka tse a di arabang tsa ka moo re neng ra tswelela ka tiro e, ka gore e ne e sale boChildren’s Act. Ke batla go itse gore mo lephateng e abilwe pele ga leuba le la madi le nna teng, go ne ga la gagwe la thuto, a ba na le sengwe se e leng gore seka ga kgonega gore go emisiwe mo tseleng, ka gore ba se tsentse mo tirisong sa gore ngwana mongwe le go ne go na le tumalano le baagi ka ditlhwatlhwa tse ba mongwe a patelesege go ya sekoleng? O a itse Tona neng ba setse ba di abetswe. Ke a leboga. le jaaka a bua jaana gore ba teng bana ba ba sa yeng sekoleng. Kgato go tsewa efe mo seemong seo? NON-ELECTRIFICATION OF SHAKAWE WILDLIFE OFFICES MR RAKHUDU: Ke a go leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mopalamente Modubule MR B. ARONE (OKAVANGO): asked the Minister ke gore fa gongwe ga a reetse sentle, kana fa gongwe of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism if he is aware fa a sa tlhaloganye, o a nganga. Re laolwa ke molao. that the Department of Wildlife offices in Shakawe O mpotsa gore a ke patika gore batsadi ba ise bana have not been electrified since completion; if so, when sekoleng. Ke mo raya ke re, molao wa re motsadi yo o sa will he consider electrifying these offices. iseng ngwana sekoleng for the first 10 years, o molato.

70 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Ke bo ke wetsa ke mo raya ke re, fa ene kana ba a ba to manage the country’s wildlife. There are various itseng ba itse gore go na le motsadi yo o robang molao plans and strategies in place to deal with different o wa gore bana ba ye sekoleng, a mpolelele. Jaanong aspects of wildlife management. In addition, these ke gore o rata go nganga le fa a sa tlhaloganye. plans and strategies are reviewed on regular basis and due improvements made where desirable and MR D. SALESHANDO: Ke ne ke re Tona a tlhalose appropriate to do so. I thank you Sir. gore ka gore a re ke molato go sa letlelela ngwana go bona free basic education, ba ba sa yeng dikoleng ka GOVERNMENT’S POSITION ON RIVER SAND gore ba busitswe ka go bo go sa duelwa school fees, PRESERVATION molato e nna wa ga mang ka gore e tla a bo e se free basic education? MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked the Minister of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism to MR RAKHUDU: Ngwana wa ga Saleshando yo o state:- kgonang go duela school fees sa junior secondary, ka gore ke gone fela kwa re batlang school fees teng, i) What the Government’s position on river sand lephatlo, fa rraagwe ene Saleshando a sa mo duelela preservation (sand mining) is, since this resource sekole, re a mmusa ka gore rraagwe o a kgona. Mme continues to be utilised by the construction fa e ne e le gore modira molao le ene o na le go akanya industry in large quantities without village sentle, molato o mo motsading, a motsadi a tlise ngwana committees benefitting; and a tle go mo duelela. ii) The preservation role of Village Development DIFFICULTIES IN CONTROLLING WILDLIFE Committees in places such as Shoshong village where the resource is still available. MR R. B. MAKOSHA (NATA/GWETA): asked the Minister of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism:- MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE AND TOURISM (MR K. MOKAILA): Mr Speaker, i) Why it is difficult for his Ministry to control the Government’s position on river sand preservation wildlife when neighbouring countries like South in view of the continued utilisation without benefits Africa and Namibia are able to control them; to village committees is that sand is a mineral that warrants protection through existing laws ii) If he is aware that the use of chilli pepper to and regulations in accordance with, inter alia, the control wildlife has failed at Tsokatshaa village National Policy on Natural Resources Conservation where it was demonstrated; and and Development, also commonly known as the iii) If there is any comprehensive plan to address this National Conservation Strategy (NCS). The Policy problem. was approved by this honourable House in 1990 and it primary goals are to pursue policies and measures MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE that increase the effectiveness with which natural AND TOURISM (MR MOKAILA): Mr Speaker, resources such as river sand are managed so that Botswana manages its wildlife in accordance with beneficial utilisation is optimised and harmful side approved national land use plans and policies. Under effects are minimised. this arrangement, wildlife refuge areas are zoned as protected areas and wildlife management areas. Furthermore, the EIA Act No. 6 of 2005 provides for Animals within these areas are free ranging, contrary environmental assessments to be used to determine the to management systems in our neighbouring countries, potential effects of planned development activities, where wildlife areas are fenced or enclosed. Hence, including sand mining. Under this Act, mining of control measures are very different. river systems for sand resources require applicants to undertake environmental assessment before acquiring Madam Speaker, the use of chilli pepper at Tsokatshaa a mining license with the Ministry of Minerals, Energy village was only demonstrated at the Kgotla. and Water Resources. Subsequently two fields were identified for further trials, but due to the unavailability of chilli pepper, Mr Speaker, Village Development Committees this was not implemented. It is therefore rather still too (VDC’s) should be proactive and take the lead in early to denounce its effectiveness. Sourcing of chilli applying for both mining rights for resources such as pepper from suppliers is underway. sand, gravel and others, for the purpose of ensuring their empowerment, as well as effective participation Mr Speaker, my Ministry by means of the Wildlife & in the sustainable management of such resources. National Parks Act has a comprehensive tool designed

Hansard No 163 Part 4 71 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

In this way, VDCs will be able to diversify income or excessively do home chores which interfere with generating projects by managing community mining their schooling in the process. The Labour Force Survey areas in an environmentally friendly manner and sell the further established that of the 38,375 children aged sand resource to locals and the construction industry. between 7 and 17 years found working, the majority So, that will be one of the preservation roles of VDC’s were in Agriculture (25,312), followed by Retail Trade in place such as Shoshong where the resource is still (8,491) and by Private Households (1,563). available. I thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, Botswana is signatory to two pertinent PLANS TO ENSURE QUALITY EDUCATION International Labour Organisation (ILO) conventions, FOR SAN/SARWA COMMUNITIES namely C138 (1973), ratified by Botswana in 1997, which urges countries to progressively raise minimum MR B. ARONE (OKAVANGO): asked the Minister age of employment, and C182 (1999), ratified in of Education and Skills Development what she is doing 2000, which focuses on the Elimination of Worst to ensure that the San/Sarwa communities have access Forms of Child Labour. In order to comply with these to quality education to enable them to participate in the Conventions we are implementing a project on child economy and improve their state of affairs, as research labour with the support of the ILO. The project, which findings have demonstrated that their state of affairs, is in the second phase, aims at assisting the country to as research findings have demonstrated that their implement the multifaceted National Action Programme languages which are characterised by click sounds, on the Elimination of Child Labour (APEC) developed make it difficult to acquire a second or third language. in 2006. The focus of the programme is awareness ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND raising, capacity building, advocacy as well as policy SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Mr and legislative reforms to eliminate the worst forms of Speaker, my Ministry is not aware of research findings child labour in Botswana. I thank you Mr Speaker. referred to by the Honourable Member of Parliament MR MODUBULE: Honourable Speaker, I do not regarding the impact of Basarwa language clicks in know how speedy I will be, but anyway I wanted to acquiring second or third languages. find out just to whether you share that information with I wish to inform the Honourable House that my Ministry your colleague in the Ministry of Education and Skills has put in place several initiatives which are geared Development; it seems he is lost. towards enabling all children of Botswana, including MR SIELE: Fa e le gore e a tlhokafala, re tlaa nna fa Basarwa children, to access education with ease. My fatshe re e buisanya, re neelana megopolo. Ministry has relaxed admission age in primary schools in order to allow flexibility for Basarwa children and IDENTIFICATION OF HERITAGE SITES IN children of other marginalised communities. NKANGECONSTITUENCY

My Ministry is also flexible with re-entrance of the MR E. J. BATSHU (NKANGE): asked the Minister Basarwa children due to their propensity to absenteeism of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism:- and dropping out of school. In addition, my Ministry i) To name heritage sites found in the Nkange has established a system of one or two teacher schools constituency and their locations; and in some remote areas in order to make education accessible to children in these areas, including those of ii) What efforts are in place to identify more heritage the Basarwa. I thank you. sites in the constituency and when the outcome should be expected? CURRENT STATUS OF CHILD LABOUR IN BOTSWANA MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE AND TOURISM (MR MOKAILA): I have already MR B. ARONE (OKAVANGO): asked the Minister provided the Honourable Member with the full list, so of Labour and Home Affairs to inform this Honourable I will just sobokanya. House on the current status of child labour in Botswana. Mr Speaker, there are a total of 50 heritage sites in MINISTER OF LABOUR AND HOME AFFAIRS the Nkange constituency. I have a list of names of 50 (MR SIELE): Mr Speaker, the 2005/2006 Labour sites for the Honourable Member’s appreciation which Force Survey included a Child Labour module to I have given to him. However, cluster locations of such establish the extent of child labour in Botswana. The sites are 12 in Tutume, 17 in Changate, 2 in Nswazwi, Survey revealed that about 9 per cent of children are 1 in Matobo, 3 in Dagwi, 8 in Senete le Goshwe, 1 in engaged in child labour either at the cattle posts, farms Phanga, 2 in Mase, 2 in Soswane and 2 in Makuta.

72 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

My Ministry is in the process of identifying other iv) Constituency Youth Officers have been appointed heritage sites within Nkange constituency to determine to mobilise and sensitise youths on empowerment and ascertain their tourism potential. I thank you Mr opportunities, in addition, I am procuring porta Speaker. cabins to be placed in constituencies for increased accessibility to youth services by young people. BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES PRESENTED TO THE YOUTH Mr Speaker, Honourable Members have constituency offices which are staffed with research officers who MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked can easily provide such basic information with regard the Minister of Youth, Sport and Culture to state:- to youth development in their constituencies. I thank i) Specific business opportunities deliberately you Mr Speaker. presented to the youth in his Ministry from the DELAYS ON THE GUMARE WASTE Development and Recurrent budget allocations; DRAINAGE SYSTEM

ii) The national value of such businesses during the MR T. G. HABANO (NGAMI): asked the Minister 2009/2010 financial year; of Local Government to inform this Honourable House iii) Projected national value of such businesses when Gumare residents should expect the Gumare during the 2010/2011 financial year; waste water drainage system to function and what caused the delay. iv) The value at (ii) and (iii) above that specifically benefitted or is projected to benefit youth in the ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL Shoshong constituency; and GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Thank you, Mr Speaker. As I indicated to my response to v) Efforts made to sensitise youth on these Question 281 on the 23rd February 2010, the main trunk opportunities. line for Gumare waste water system was constructed in 2002/03, but due to budgetary constraints, the tertiary MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE lines were left out. This project cannot function without (MR KGATHI): Mr Speaker, the strategy for youth tertiary lines. empowerment is to support different types of viable and sustainable income generating youth projects that Mr Speaker, my Ministry has no plans to develop the the youth would have submitted for funding, except tertiary lines due to budgetary constraints. I therefore those businesses that are excluded from funding under cannot give any specific period when such system will the Youth Development Fund such as bars, bottle be put to use because the project is not included in stores, liquor restaurants, phone shops, motor vehicles, NDP 10. I thank you Mr Speaker. cash loans, general dealers, property acquisition and cattle speculation. A recurrent budget of P30 million MANAGEMENT OF MINERALS RIGHTS IN was allocated for the implementation of the Youth BATAWANA TRIBAL TERRITORY Development Fund during the 2009/2010 Financial Year. MR T. MOREMI (MAUN WEST): asked the Minister Mr Speaker, the Honourable Member’s questions are of Minerals, Energy and Water resources:- too broad and subject to various interpretations, and I i) What legal instrument he uses to manage mineral therefore respond as follows: rights in the Batawana Tribal Territory;

i) During the financial year 2009/2010, a total of ii) Who signed for the transfer of mineral rights in 244 Youth Projects were funded at the value of the Batawana Tribal Territory to the State; P21 million. iii) When the transferring document was signed; ii) During 2010/2011 financial year, approximately 1000 youth businesses will be funded at a total iv) When the North West District Council was value of P60 million. consulted on the transfer; and

iii) Five (5) projects have been funded from v) Where the original transferring documents are kept. Shoshong constituency during the 2009/2010 financial year. P1 million has also been reserved MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND for funding youth empowerment projects in each WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): constituency, including Shoshong. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, re dumalane fela sentle le Kgosi Moremi gore yo o tla a bong a mo

Hansard No 163 Part 4 73 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 TABLING OF PAPER

emetse, a re, ‘later date’ ka gore information e santse e We anticipate that three new senior secondary le kwa archives; ga re e bone. schools at Mmadinare, Mogoditshane and Nata will be operational by January 2011. All the new schools MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Francistown have boarding facilities. The opening of these schools South, the message is clear. You missed the boat on will enable us to do away with double shift at senior that part. It is okay Honourable Member. secondary school level whilst at the same time ensuring TABLING OF PAPER that there is no drop in the enrolment rates at this level. We will therefore with effect from January 2011 start The following Paper was tabled: to phase out double shift starting with senior secondary schools as I have just mentioned. REPORT OF THE FINANCE AND ESTIMATES COMMITTEE ON SUPPLEMENTARY Mr Speaker, finally from the enrolment projections that ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE FOR THE we have for the next five years, it will not be possible CONSOLIDATED FUNDS: FINANCIAL PAPER to stop double shift at junior secondary level until we NO.3 OF 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER have built more classrooms to make it possible in the NO.2 OF 2000/2010 affected schools. I thank you Sir.

(Chairman of the Finance and Estimates Committee) MR SPEAKER: Maybe before you show some interest, Honourable Members, let me remind you of STATEMENT TO PARLIAMENT ON THE what Standing Order 31 Sub Section (2) says, “When DOUBLE SHIFT SYSTEM BY THE MINISTER a Member is called by the Speaker to raise a matter OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT of privilege he shall briefly state the facts to which he MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS wishes to draw the attention of the Assembly and the DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): Mr grounds on which he believes that those facts affect the Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to brief this privileges of the Assembly. Honourable House on a decision that my Ministry has MR D. SALESHANDO (GABORONE CENTRAL): taken with regard to the implementation of double What I want to find out from the Minister is if the plan shift. was to have the double shift as a temporary measure, The double shift system was introduced in 2006 as an was it always introduced with the plan of being interim measure geared towards increasing access to phased out or is the import of your message that the secondary education. It was recognised then that due to disadvantages of having the system far out weigh the limited space at secondary level, a reasonable number of benefits? If that is the case, does that mean that the students could not access secondary education. The need same problems may be encountered at junior secondary was more pronounced at senior secondary school level. levels? But because you do not have an expansion of the schools, you would rather leave with it in spite of At the time the double shift was introduced in 2006, the difficulties we have? transition from Form 3 to Form 4 was 58.22%. It rose to 62.34% in 2009 mainly due to the implementation MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS of the double shift system. DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): Mr Speaker, fa e le gore ke utlwile Mokaulengwe sentle, The system was implemented in four junior secondary Rraetsho, re ne re tsenya double shift gore dikole di schools and six senior secondary schools. The four tseye bana moso le maitseboa. Re dirisiwa ke gore go community junior secondary schools are: Bokamoso ne go se na bonno kana manno a a lekanetseng a dipalo (Gaborone) Itekeng (Ghanzi), Montsamaisa tsa bana tse di neng di tshwanetse go tsena sekole mo (Francistown) and Rakops (Rakops). The senior mafelong a a farologanyeng. Se ke se buang ke gore, fa secondary schools being: Seepapitso, Swaneng, dikole di le teng di letla, re ne re bona go le botoka gore Gaborone, Francistown, Maun and Kgari Sechele. ba seka ba dirisa double shift. Mme fa re pitlaganang teng, e le gore palo ya bana jaaka go supega ka junior A detailed evaluation of the exercise was undertaken certificate, e santse e le ntsi mme dikole di sa lekane, re starting in May 2009. Our team consulted with all tla a nama re ntse re tsweletse ka yone. That is the only relevant stakeholders including teacher unions. A answer I have unless ke sa go utlwa Rraetsho. review report has since been submitted to my office detailing both the strengths and challenges associated MR G. SALESHANDO: Mmaetsho, a ke boammaaruri with this policy. gore double shift e isitse boleng jwa thuto kwa tlase?

74 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN REGULATIONS THRESHOLD) REGULATIONS, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) MS VENSON-MOITOI: Ga ke na dipatlisiso tse di MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT ka mphang karabo e e ntseng jalo rraetsho. PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): I thank you Mr Speaker. Indeed, the Statutory Instrument No. 17 MR MABILETSA: Would the Minister indicate to this of 2010 proposing an increase in the registration House what her projected access rate would be once all threshold under the Value Added Tax (VAT) Act has the three senior secondary schools are completed from been published in the Government Gazette on the 8th Form 3 to Form 4? March 2010, and was tabled before the Honourable th MS VENSON-MOITOI: Maikaelelo a rona jaaka re House on the 15 March 2010. The proposal was first ne ra bolela mo pegong ya ga Tautona ya State of the announced during the 2010/2011 Budget Speech. Nation, re solofetse kwa godimo ga 80 per cent. Mr Speaker, I am proposing that the threshold be MR MMOLOTSI: Ke ne ke botsa gore a Tona o increased from the current turnover of P250, 000 per st na le lenaneo lepe le a le akantseng la gore bana ba annum to P500, 000 per annum with effect from 1 April ba santseng ba emetse ba bangwe gore ba tswe mo 2010. The registration threshold of a turnover of P250, classrooms ba tle ba tsene, ba ka nama ba emetse bao 000 per annum was determined when the value added fa kae thata thata re lebile ka dinako tsa dipula. Ka gore tax was introduced in Botswana in 2002. The increase le tsone hall tota kwa dikoleng tseo di a dirisiwa? of the registration threshold is envisaged to relief small to medium scale enterprises from the requirements to MS VENSON-MOITOI: Ke one a ke reng fa re register and collect VAT for government. This will kgonang teng dikago di letla, re tla a dira gore bana benefit the companies which may opt to de-register, and ba seka ba ema mo dikgokgotshwaneng ka gore ga thereby reduce their operational costs of collecting and go na fa ba ka letlang teng rraetsho. Ke ne ke batla filing VAT returns. Many people from major villages go tsietswa ke kgang ya gore batsadi ba le bantsi ba and rural areas will also benefit since many shops ngongoregile ka double shift mo dikgaolong tsotlhe. and suppliers of basic commodities will fall below Jaanong ga ke tlhaloganye gore Bakaulengwe ba ka bo the new registration threshold and may de-register. It ba tshwengwa ke eng fa re re re ntsha selo se se ntseng is however important to note that companies that fall se tshwenya batsadi. Ke lebogile Rraetsho. below the new increased threshold can either register or de-register voluntarily. VARIATION OF SITTING HOURS Mr Speaker, there has been a suggestion in the private MOTION sector, that the threshold should be increased to P1 LEADER OF THE HOUSE (HIS HONOUR THE million to be as if it were at par with the threshold VICE PRESIDENT LT. GEN. MERAFHE): Mr of R1 million in South Africa. It is important to Speaker, I beg to move in terms of Standing Order 18 emphasise that the size of the South African economy (1) (a) and (b) that the sitting of this Honourable House is almost 25 times larger than our economy. And that, on Thursday 1st April 2010, commence at 0900 hours if we were to increase the threshold to P1 million, there instead of 1430 hours and adjourn at 1300 hours instead would be substantial loss of revenue for us, and the of 1900 hours as is usually the case on a Thursday. government would not be able or afford to undertake some development projects and to finance Recurrent The reason for so doing is to enable Honourable Expenditure. It should be noted that even if the cost Members who are desirous of spending the imminent of living adjustment is applied to the VAT threshold of possible holidays in their Constituencies to undertake P250,000, that was determined in 2002, the increase such travel at an early, and more reasonable hour than would be 87 per cent by February 2010, which is less would be possible if this Honourable House commenced than the doubling that we are proposing of the threshold and adjourned at its usual times. I therefore, move to P500,000. accordingly Mr Speaker. We are therefore convinced that increasing the threshold Question put and agreed to. to P500,000 and not P1 million, would be sufficient to take account of capacity levels of our small to medium VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE scale enterprises. And at the same time not resulting in IN REGULATIONS THRESHOLD) too much loss of revenue. With that having been said Mr REGULATIONS, 2010 Speaker, I now move that this Honourable House resolves RESOLUTION that the Value Added Tax (Increase in Regulations Threshold) Regulations, 2010, which were published (Resumed Debate) in the Government Gazette as Statutory Instrument No.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 75 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN REGULATIONS THRESHOLD) REGULATIONS, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) 17 of 2010 and which were laid before this Honourable dikgwebong tse di potlana, go ne go le bokete. Go dira House on the 15th March 2010 be approved by this tiro ya go farologanya fa o setse o dira dibuka tsa gago, Honourable House. I thank you Mr Speaker. madi a o tshwanetseng gore o a ise kwa VAT le a sa tshwanelang go ya koo, ke tiro. Gore e diragale ka bo MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): motlhofo le thelelo, rakgwebo o tshwanetse gore a bo Thank you very much Mr Speaker for giving me a na le motho yo o dirileng tiro ya Accounts, a kgona this time also to talk to what Honourable Matambo gore a mo direle tiro eo motlhofo. Jaanong ba madirelo has just delivered. I would like to preface my debate a mabotlana, ba ba neng ba sa kgone ka profits tse ba with a few points. The P250, 000 threshold has been a di dirang gore ba ka hira bomaitseanape ba go nna serious problem especially to people who are starting jalo, e ne e le bothata mo go bone. Ke solofela gore businesses and it has actually affected so many gongwe Tona mo go akgeleng mo mafokong a rona, a businesses because it was too low. If you suggest that dumalane le rona. Tona a bo a dumalane le rona gore, this be increased to P500, 000, I think it is going to go gongwe e bile mo bathong ba bantsi ba ba neng ba a long way in addressing a lot of problems that have sekisiwa ke ba VAT kana goromente ka go tlhoka go led to the closure of so many citizen owned businesses. duela madi a lekgetho leo, bontsi jwa bone e ne e le Mr Speaker, I have decided that today, I am not going ba dikgwebo tse di potlana. E ne e se ka ntlha ya gore to be long on the floor because I agree with Honourable ba na le maikaelelo ape a a maswe, e le ka lebaka la Matambo entirely. This is an effort that is going to help gore, tota tsone dibuka tsa teng, complexity ya go dira a lot of Batswana who want to start small businesses, jalo, e ne e ba ketefalela. Kgato e o tsereng Tona ya go and I know my constituents will appreciate this effort suteletsa selekanyo kwa pele, e tla a tsamaya mosepele very much. o moleejana go thusa bagwebi ba go nna jalo.

There are a number of young people who have started Letshwenyego le gongwe ke ka kopang Tona gore a re businesses in my Constituency and I want to believe dige makgwafo mo go lone, ke gore a re netefaletse gore that these revelations will prove very helpful to their a mme ga go na bangwe bo radikgwebo ba motho ka course. With such few words Mr Speaker, I would selekanyo sone sa madi a a tla a bong a a dira, o tla a like to agree with Honourable Matambo and say bo a sa kwadise le goromente for VAT. E bo e re mo Honourable Minister, well done. Next time, it should kgwebong ya gagwe fa a baya ditlhwatlhwa tsa gagwe, be a million. Thank you. a bo tsenya madi a VAT mo teng, go bo go raya gore MR G. SALESHANDO (SELEBI PHIKWE fa batho ba reka ba duela selekanyo sa madi ao a VAT, WEST): Mr Speaker, mathata a mangwe ke a gore other ke a pata ya gagwe ga se a puso. A ga go na kgonagalo businesses di ne di na le mathata. Tse dingwe tota o kare ya gore boferefere jwa go nna jalo bo diragale? Fa e le di ne di patelediwa ke badiredi ba ba neng ba di kwadisa gore gongwe bo teng, go isa selekanyo kwa go 500 000, go ikwadisa. Mathata a mangwe a ke a lemogileng ke go oketsa go le kana ka eng, e bile go ka utlwisa bone gore, dipampiri tsa teng di di ntsi mo e leng gore ga bajibareki botlhoko go le kana ka eng mo bathong ba se business nngwe le nngwe e e neng e ka kgona go di ba dirang jalo? Ka mafoko a makhutshwanyane ao, tota kwala le go di isa kwa for reimbursement jalo jalo. Two ga go na mafoko a mantsi a re ka a buang, ke go leboga hundred and fifty thousand Pula ene o ne a le kwa tlase. Tona fela, go mo akgola le go amogela kopo ya gagwe. Jaanong o ne a patika gore businesses tse di neng di sa MR MODUBULE (LOBATSE): Mma ke go tshwanela go ikwadisa di ikwadise di le di ntsi. leboge Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Nna Ke na le mathatanyana a gore fa o re threshold ‘may gantsinyana kana ga ke motho yo ke etleng ke nne ke register voluntarily or de-register voluntarily’, gore ba akgole, le letsatsi leno ga ke a ikaelela go go akgola bangwe ba ba sa itseng, ba ba setseng ba ikwadisitse, Tona. Mma ke supe mabaka a me a go tlhoka go go ba ka tswa ba ya go nna le mathatanya. Go tla a raya akgola. Ba ba akgolang ba ka akgola, ba ba reng ai! ba gore le rulaganye gore le bone ka fa le ka ba thusang ka ka bua se ba se buang. teng. Kgang e e khutshwanyane Mr Speaker. Tona, mma ke supe jaana, nna ke e tle ke rate gore fa o MR MANGOLE (KGATLENG WEST): Ke a leboga tsaya tshwetso, e bo e le e e ka thusang batho go ya kwa Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Le nna ke pele, e seng go ba busetsa kwa morago le fa e le go ba emela fela gore ke akgole Tona mo kgatong ya gagwe sokodisa mo matshelong a bone, ke tsaya e le moono o e a e tsereng go oketsa selekanyo sa VAT go tswa mo le wena e reng o dira wa bo o o ikaeletse. Ke tsaya gore go P250 000 go ya kwa P500 000. Ke re Rraetsho, ke fa re bonang go na le ditlhaelo teng, re tshwanetse ra di kgato e ntle, jaaka bomorwarre ba setse ba buile. Mo go supegetsa, re seka ra go lomeletsa.

76 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN REGULATIONS THRESHOLD) REGULATIONS, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) Sa ntlha Tona ke gore, kana VAT e re buang ka yone, ba kwa tlase, ba ba batlang to tender for dingwe ditiro fa re bua ka bagwebi ba ba botlana, ba reka dilwana tsa Council tse di madi a a kwa tlase ga threshold, ba tse e leng gore di setse di tsentswe VAT, mo go rayang a kgona ka gore go a twe ba tlise quotations. Go na le gore le bone fa ba ya go rekisa, fa ba dira mark-ups tsa batho ba e leng gore ba kgona to tender for ditiro tsa bone, ba di direla mo godimo ga yone VAT. Mo go raya Council, ba di fenye ba sena number ya VAT rraetsho, gore effectively motho yo o yang go amiwa ke VAT, go laolwa ke yone threshold. tota ke moreki ga se mogwebi yo mmotlana. Jaanong se ke batlang go se gatelela ke gore, ee, re ka tswa bone MR MANGOLE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo gongwe re re ga ba tle go amiwa ke VAT, mme VAT ka tsa Palamente. Ke ne ke re gongwe ke oketse le mo boammaaruri e ya go re ama rotlhe, go sa kgathalesege kgakololong gore, go a kgonagala gore motho fa a gore threshold ya reng. Threshold yone ee, e tla a tender, a seyo mo go dueleng VAT, a ye go tsaya VAT sologela molemo ba e leng gore ba ka kgona gore kwa Exemption Certificate, and enclose it, ga go na molato morago ba ise returns tsa bone kwa go goromente ba ope fela, o kgona to tender. re, “re dirisitse jaana goromente, re busetse sengwe ka MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, two advices jaana re ne re kwadisitse lekgetho la VAT.” from your colleagues.

Se ke batlang gore ke se gakolole Tona ke gore VAT, MR MODUBULE: I will take the last as probably the e re ntswa jaaka o ne o bua, go tswa mo go P250 000 cure, the first I dismiss. go ya kwa go P500 000 ke sena mathata le gone, ke na le mathata fela a gore, bone ba ba sa kwadisang VAT Ke tswelele Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ke ya P250 000, ba ntse ba iphitlhela ba na le mathata ka re, fa e le gore ke ka tsaya se Mokaulengwe wa me yo gore fa go na le the tenders rraetsho, conditions tse di o tlotlegang, comrade Honourable Mangole a se buang, bewang in tenders ke gore o bo o na le VAT number, se le boammaaruri, ke sone se ke ka siang ka sone, se se e gantsi bone bagwebi ba tla a bong ba sena nayo ka buiwang ke Tona ka fale, nnyaa, o ipuela dikgang fela jaana ba sa kwadisetsa VAT. Mo go bo go raya gore fa tse e leng gore di tsewa mo seterateng. Mme fa e le gore go na le tenders tsa madi a a kwa tlase, ga ba kgone go go ntse jalo, motho o ka ya go kopa exemption a e fiwa a di tsenelela ka mabaka a gore ga ba na VAT Registration bo a ka tender, I will be very happy ka gore go ka thusa Number. Se sengwe e le gore, go ya go batliwa le Tax ba le bantsi. Ke bua jaana ka gore Batswana ba le bantsi Clearance Certificate.Ke dilo tse di batliwang rraetsho. ba ne ba seka ba kgona mo nakong e e fetileng, ba ntse Ope o ka bua se a se buang, mme se ke se tlhomamisang ba na le this P250 000 threshold gore ba seka ba tender. ke gore, bagwebi ba ba mo dikgwebong, dikgwetlho tse Ba batliwa dilo tse ba senang natso, ba supa gore kana ba lebagane natso, mo e leng gore o fitlhela ba na le rona ga re na dilo tse ka mabaka a gore molao wa re we mathata a gore jaanong ba ka tsenelela jang tenders ba are exempted, ga re a tshwanela go ka bo re batliwa dilo sena VAT Clearance Certificate. Golo moo… tse le di batlang, mme ba seka ba letlelelwa to tender. Ke re ke itumela thata, fa e le gore go ntse jaaka ba HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification ba buang ba bua, batho ba le bantsi ba tlaa kgona gore jaanong ba tsenelele tenders tse e leng gore ba ntse ba MR MODUBULE: …(Interruptions)…clarify sa kgone go di tsenelela. Ba kganelwa ke ba ba reng anything, unless minister a ka ema and elucidate. To ba tshotse tsamaiso ya tenders mo diatleng tsa bone, ba clarify, ga a kake a tlhalosa sepe se ke se buang ka gore supa gore fa o sena VAT Number, Clearance Certificate ke bua se ke se itseng. So I am not yielding. sa makgetho, ga o ka ke wa tender. Mme ke re fa e le Mma ke tswelele, se ke se buang Tona ke gore, go gore advice ya ga Motlotlegi Mangole ke yone, ke tla a ntsha VAT gore dikompone jaanong ba ye go kwadisa, amogela gore go ka thusa Batswana ba le bantsi thata, fa ba e leng gore ba dira bo P500 000 ka ngwaga, gone e le gore certificates tsa go nna jalo di ka ntshiwa, ntswa go ka thusa. Se ke se buang ke gore, go ya go dira gore tota di sa tlhokafale ka gore molao wa re, fa o le kwa Batswana ba e leng gore ga ba tle to qualify to tender tlase ga threshold e, o bo o sa ka ke wa… ka mabaka one a bo VAT Number or License, e e leng MR ARONE: On a point of elucidation. Thank you gore ba ka bo ba e filwe ba nne bantsi. Ke one mathata Mr Speaker. Ke ne ke re ke gatelele se Mokaulengwe a nna ke reng, le fa go ntse jalo… a se baung, ka gore ke bona o kare Bakaulengwe ga ba MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS dumalane le ene. Ke dilo tse re di boneng mo dikgaolong DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): kwa dikhanseleng. Le gone to supply borotho fela, go On a point of correction. Re ne re re re gakolole ne go batliwa Tax Clearance Certificates. Mokaulengwe gore o kare ga go a nna jalo. Bagwebi ba HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)…

Hansard No 163 Part 4 77 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN REGULATIONS THRESHOLD) REGULATIONS, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) MR ARONE: Gongwe ga ba dire ka fa molaong, but fa o re ba ba 500,000 and below honestly ke gore ... it is a fact, dilo tse di a diragala, di kgopa kgopetsa bagwebi ba ba botlana. Ke ne ke re ke go eme ka a le MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! In all fairness kalo Mokaulengwe. Honourable Member you are talking to a Minister. You are tinting your submission, Section 46(5), ‘with MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT improper motives’. You are talking to a Minister, “moo PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): On a point of ke ga lona”, please. clarification. I think what the Honourable Member Arone is talking about is completely a different thing. MR MODUBULE: I think the Honourable Minister Tax Clearance Certificate is required to ensure that you understands what I am saying Honourable Speaker. do not owe tax. It is totally different from the threshold Apart from probably offending you, he is not offended. certificate. Thank you. Se ke batlang go se bua Tona ke gore, nna ke tsaya gore MR SPEAKER: Free seminar Honourable lona fa le re 500,000 and below, you know batho ba e Modubule. leng gore ba dira below that, ga kere batho ba a kgetha and all that. Le a itse gore tota businesses ke dife MR MODUBULE: Free seminar and misplaced tse di dirang madi a a rileng. Unless you do not have Honourable Speaker, you do not have to allow that. statistics, then I am afraid, fa e le gore this government o tlogetse batho running businesses a sa itse gore ba HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Ao! dira eng, then it is a problem. Ke na le tumelo ya gore MR MODUBULE: Mma ke tswelele, kana ba ba rata le a itse Tona. Ga le ka ke la baya selekanyo se fela le bo ao! fela, mme ba a itse gore ke boammaaruri, ga o sa baya mo go sepe. O na le tlhomamo ya gore le tla a ka ke wa araba a Member who is not holding the floor, bona jang gore seemo ke eng. that is a fact. Jaanong se ke batlang gore ke se bue ke Se ke batlang go se bua ke gore, when someone has been gore, ke ne ke santse ke bua ka gore nnyaa, fa e le gore exempted rraetsho, jaaka molao o bua gore fa o dira gatwe go batliwa Exemption Certificate, le gone ke tsaya kwa tlase ga madi a, go na le ditsela tse le ka bonang gore ke phoso. Ka gore tota exemption e setse e dirilwe ka tsone gore a motho o dira madi ao kana nnyaa. Tota ke Tona mo molaong wa gore, fa a beile threshold ya ga go tlhokafale gore a bo a ya go kopa gape exemption P500 000, anybody below that ga a tshwanela gore a certificate. He is already exempted by the law, ke sone se bo a kopiwa gore a ye go batla Exemption Certificate ke batlang gore ke se gatelele. Jaanong go na le mathata when he is already exempted by the law. Ke gore nna a mangwe a gore fa batho ba ba setse, a ke re gongwe ga ke itse gore jaanong tota gatwe go diragala eng kwa business is winding up, motho a ya to report kwa go bone dikhanseleng tsa rona, mo e leng gore jaanong batho ba ba VAT gore, bagaetsho kana jaanong kgwebo e padile batliwa Exemption Certificates ba ntse ba le exempted ke a tswala. Kgwebo e gore e padile ke a tswala kana ke ke molao. Ke one mathata a ke reng Tona, communicate tswetse, ka di 31 tsa ga March jaana, nnyaa go fitlhelela le dikhansele tsa gago, dilo tse di tle di kgone gore di bone ba tla go dira ditshekatsheko tsa bone ba bo ba dira tlhamaladiwe. Ke mathata a nna ke a bonang. audit ya bone, o tswelela being charged fela jaaka e kete Go na le closure of business fa motho a ne a… business e a bereka. Tona golo mo o tshwanetse gore o go ele tlhoko. Batswana ba le ba ntsi ba setse ba le mo MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR dikolotong ba seka ka mabaka a a ntseng jaana. E le MOLEFHI): On a point of clarification. Ke ne ke re gore jaanong tota ba seka interests tsa ga goromente ba Motlotlegi a farologanye se, gore a mme fa threshold sa seke kgwebo gore e ne e sa dire sentle mo sebakeng sa e beilwe jaaka e ne e beilwe mo nakong eno, tsela e fa ba gweba. Ke sone se ke reng, nnyaa fa ke tsaya gore e ka tlhomamisang gore mogwebi yo o ikopelang go Tona lebelela dintlha tse, ga ke na mathata a go tsholetsa tsenelela titeisanyo borathana mo go tsa kgwebo, a o threshold, mme a re lebelele gore se re se dirang a se tla bolelela ruri a re selekanyo sa gagwe se kwa tlase, ke a felela se sologela Batswana ba ba ntsi molemo kana e fe. E ka tlhomamisiwa jang a sa tle ka bosupi jo bo nnyaa. Jaaka ke ne ke bua rraetsho, go na le mathata a tswang kwa go ba ba laotsweng gore e ka nna bone ba tenders, boVAT number gore fa o sena natso ga o reng. ka tlhomamisang, ba rebola gore mogwebi yoo e le ruri Ke setse ke utlwile gore, nnyaa o ka kopa exemption. Ke ga a mo selekanyong sa gore o ka bo a kwadiseditse? gore ke ipotsa gore o e kopelang, ka gore jaaka ke ne ke bua Tona o nkutlwile ga ke batle go ipoeletsa mo go se MR MODUBULE: Rra ga ke itse gore fa le ne le dira ke se buileng. Mma ke go lebogele sebakanyana se o se molao jaana le ne le akantse gore le tla a bona jang bosupi. nneetseng go bua le Batswana Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo Moo ke ga lona, it is up to the government. Ke raya gore tsa Palamente.

78 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN REGULATIONS THRESHOLD) REGULATIONS, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL a mantle a ntse jalo. Tota fela e ne e le go baakanya GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Ke a go se se neng se padile ke ka bo ke se baakantse ka leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Tota bokhutshwanyane. Ke a leboga Rraetsho. gongwe ke ka bo ke ne ke sa ema ka bua fa Mokaulengwe a ne a ntetleletse, ka gore ke dumalana le kgang e go ne MR MABILETSA (KGATLENG EAST): Ke a go sa tlhoke gore ke e bue. Re tshwanetse ra baakanya leboga Motlotlegi. Ka bophara Bakaulengwe ba ba dilo dingwe, ka gore tse dingwe e bile re di bua ka buileng they covered dintlha dingwe tse di botlhokwa kitso. Fa e le gore gongwe dikhansele di a farologana tse le nna ke di itseng. ke mathata a sele. Dikgang tsa tenders, tse nna ke Mr Speaker, ke re ke tsaya gore debate ya mo ntseng mo go yone tender board, VAT e ntse e le teng, Palamenteng ga se point scoring. Nna ke tsaya gore gape ke le mogwebi yo mmotlana, ga go na VAT e e re bua le Tona re mmolelela mathata a re nang le one. batlegang. Nna ke fentse tenders ke sena kgang e e Fa re bua le Tona, ke go kopa gore o re reetse and ntseng jalo, le ba bangwe. Ke itumelela gore le Mma then o ye go bona gore a mme se bangwe ba nang Modubule, ka kgwebo e a nang nayo ke e bone ke le matshwenyego le sone a ke boammaaruri. Fa e le ya mohuta wa e ke nang nayo. If you apply, go tswa boammaaruri ke go tshepa gore o tla a tsaya dikgato tenders, le tseye Government Gazette, ke itse thata tse di maleba. Fa e se boammaaruri, e tla a re re ntse re ya dikhansele. Go kwadilwe gore re ntsha tender ya tsweletse re go botsa dipotso gone fa, o tlhalose gore, sennanne, bogolo jang ya go phakisa le tse dingwe. Fa nnyaa tota ga go na boammaaruri jo bo ntseng jalo. Ga go kwalwa, se se batliwang kwa Khanseleng se ke se ke bone gore a motho e ka re a berekile mo khanseleng itseng, se letsatsi leno jaana e rile go kopiwa machines e le nngwe, e bo e kete o tsaya gore se se diragalang tsa coupons, ke mongwe wa those who applied and I kwa khanseleng e le nngwe ke sa dikhansele tse tsotlhe. am tendering mo Mahalapye le kwa ntle, ke gore o Especially motho e le Tona a sa re, ke bua ke le Tona batliwa trade license le tax clearance. That one is a ke itse gore ga go diragale, a bo a re kwa khanseleng e fact, ga go na jaaka o ka seka wa bontsha batho gore le nngwe. Ke raya gore fa gongwe o fitlhela e le gore o mogwebi yo e leng gore o duela lekgetho. O bo o re dira point scoring ka tsela e e sa tlhamalalang. Ke batliwa health inspector’s report. Tse ke di itseng tse ne ke re gongwe golo moo le nna ke go baakanye gore ke sa reng gatwe, ke raya ke dira jaaka le utlwa ke re tle re itse gore mongwe le mongwe o bona tse a di bua gore nna le Mokaulengwe mmaetsho. Jaanong fa bonang ka fa a di bonang ka teng. Fa a di bona ka fa a di re tla go bua dikgang, kwa Central District Council bonang ka teng when he/she reports, the good listening (CDC), where I apply, ga gona exemption certificate Tona must listen and take the appropriate action. Ke e e batliwang. Fa e le gore e a batliwa kwa Lobatse yone point e ke neng ke re ke fete ka yone. that I do not know. Kwa Central District, sub districts tsotlhe. Mo mokwalong wa rona, o tseye Government Point ya bobedi Tona ke ya gore, ke boammaaruri ke Gazette, ga gona fa go buiwang gore e bo e le gore fa o dumalana le wena mo koketsong e o e kopang. Ke go ya go reediwa o ya go kopa, I applied ... tlhomamisetse gape gore, go na le seemo sengwe se le sone ke batlang gore o se elelele. Kgang e nngwe ke e MR SPEAKER: I think you have adequately made e neng e buiwa ke Motlotlegi Modubule ya dikompone your point Honourable Minister. tse di tswalang. Practice ya ofisi ya gago kwa BURS, MS TSHIRELETSO: Nnyaa, ke gore ke ne ke bona e ke gore kgwedi le kgwedi companies that have re ke bua ke bo ke utlwa e le gore go nna le dikgang tsa registered for VAT submit returns. That is a fact. Go gore gotwe ga ke ka ke ka bua sepe. Ke bo ke re, fa a na le gore ba bangwe when they are submitting jaana, riana ke tla a tla ke mmolelela ke eme ka dinao. ba dirisa Secretaries. Ba ba dirisang Secretaries fa kompone e e tswalwa, e le gore jaanong Secretary ga Jaanong ke batla gore ke tlhalose melao ya ga goromente a sa tlhole a duelwa, e le gore kompone e e ole ba ofisi gore fa gongwe re a e pateletsa bagaetsho. O very clear ya gago kgwedi le kgwedi ba romela return. Kgwedi e fela, jaaka o bona ke sa iphitlhe go ipua. Mo gongwe e leng gore return ga e a goroga e nna P5, 000 kgwedi batho ba bua ka batho ba bangwe. Jaanong ke tlhalose le kgwedi. Even if you can go for 100 months go ntse gore nna ke mongwe wa those that have tendered, I fela jaaka ke go bolelela. Ke ipotsa gore a golo mo have got no problem, ke a small business. go bereka jaaka o kare go bereka robot. Robot fa o e reile wa re katlholo ke capital punishment, fa o re Jaanong let me support ke eme ka dinao. Rraetsho robot atlhola e atlhola jalo. Ke gore ke ipotsa gore fa Tona ka tota kgang re e buile go le maabane, jaanong batho ba bona dikgwedi tse pedi kana tse tharo return ke gore fela re dumalane gore re oketse threshold. Ke e sa tsene, why can they not do site visits go bona gore a dumalana Sir gore a go dire go nne jalo. Mafoko mathata ke eng. Batho ba iphitlhela e le gore ba na le

Hansard No 163 Part 4 79 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN REGULATIONS THRESHOLD) REGULATIONS, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) outstanding VAT collections in millions, mme bontsi gore ba gole ba tle ba tsoge e le boradikgwebo ba ba jwa tsone e le tsa interests tse Motlotlegi Modubule a tona mo lefatsheng la rona. Jaanong se o se lopang fa, nene a bua ka tsone. Interests which reflect fela gore se arabela kopo e e ntseng jalo. Ga o simolole rraetsho, kompone e ole. Le fa o dira ke go ya go tseela motho re wetswe ke seru sa kwelotlase ya itsholelo. E ne ya se e leng gore ga a na sone. Ke go tlhomamisetsa Tona re go tshwanela fa e le gore go a kgonagala mafatshe gore nna ke bone bagwebi ba le ba ntsi ba tla kwa a mangwe a re go kgaolwe bodiredi jwa puso o ne ofising ya me ba lela ka seemo se se tshwanang le se, wa gana wa re, “nnyaa e seng bodiredi jwa puso ya ba na le madi a mantsi. Mme secretaries o ka seke wa lefatshe la Botswana, bao ga ba ka ke ba fokodiwa fa e tlhola o boela kwa go tsone, because ga o a ba duela le sengwe ba tla a tlhoka dikokeletso fela”. services that they offered, ga go na jaaka go ka dirwa. Ke re ke go tlhalosetse seemo se Tona gore sone se E rile go le thata re wetswe ke seru, ka gone go akanyetsa teng, le fa mongwe a ka re nnyaa nna kwa Mahalapye ga gago mo wa re, “nnyaa fa e le go oketsa makgetho kana Tlhomadithotse ga ke a se bona. Kwa dikgaolong mo dikomponeng, moo ga ke ka ke ka ya teng, ke tla a tse dingwe gongwe kwa go boMmanoko di teng. Dilo bo ke sa direle boradikompone ba lefatshe le sentle.” tse, that is why my plea Mr Speaker e le gore Tona re Ga o a ka wa ema foo, o rile le one makgetho fela a reetse. Ba bangwe ba ba go dubela motshelo, ba go rona; personal taxes, a di seka tsa okediwa, ka gore tlhakatlhakanyetsa your good listening ability. o motho yo o neneketsang dilo mme fela gone o ne wa re e o reng go okediwe VAT ka 2 per cent go tswa HONOURABLE MEMBER: O rata go rapela! mo go 10 per cent go ya kwa go 12 per cent moo go necessary, e le gone go supa gore ga se gore o etla o MR MABILETSA: Nnyaa ga ke mo rapele, lopese! bua tse di monate fela. O bua le tse e leng gore go a bo Bolopese ba teng ba ba tshedileng ka jone. Tona ke go tlhokafala gore di buiwe go le botlhoko. Jaanong eng ke sa go rapele le wena gongwe letsatsi lengwe le se ke batlang go wela ka sone ke gore a e re fa re sena nna e tla a re... go nna re amogela mogopolo wa gago, o diragadiwe, implementation... MR SPEAKER: Honourable Mabiletsa, the procedure is you address the Speaker. MR G. SALESHANDO: On a point of procedure Mr Speaker. Ke tsaya gore dikgang tse dintsi tsa go ala MR MABILETSA: Ga ke itse gore a Mr Speaker fa tse re setse re fetile ka tsone. Jaanong o re senyetsa ke bua ke ntse jaana, am I not addressing you, ka gore nako, o ka bo a tsena fela mo go se se fa pele ga rona ke wena o mphileng floor. Tona ke a go lopela rra mo re tswelele le kgang. boemong jwa batlhophi ba me ba ke ba emetseng le bontsi jwa Batswana ba ba tlileng kwa ofising ya me ba MR BATSHU: Nnyaa, kana mongwe fa a ala o ala lela ka seemo se se tshwanang le se, gore se teng fa re kwa ga gagwe, jaanong o ka itse gore nna ke feditse go se bua ga re itseme. Batho ba tla ka kwa, ke gore fa ba ala yo mongwe ga a ise a fetse go ala o a lesiwa fela a tlile ga re kwale mo newspapers gore motho o ne a tlile ale. Ke a leboga mogolole. Ke wela ka gore tiragatso gore go tle go balwe Botswana jotlhe. Kgang ya gago ya se re se dumalanang ke yone e e leng gore ke tlhoka jaaka fa re e bua le wena fa, ke yone e e tla a kwalwang gore ke gatelele mo go yone, re phuthe makgetho a. Ba mo newspapers e e tla a balwang ke Batswana botlhe. ofisi ya ga Tona ba eme ka dinao ba phuthe makgetho a re tle re kgone go bona madi a e ka reng fa re tla Tona, threshold gore e okediwe ke tsaya gore e thusitse mo Palamenteng e e tlang, re bo re ka kgona go dira go le go tona fela thata, e tla a nna le sengwenyana ditiro tse di oketsegileng tse e leng gore di beetswe se se rileng. Ka a le kalo ke a go leboga Motsamaisa kwa tlhoko. Jaanong se ke sone se ke batlang go se Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. gatelela gore, mme le bone Batswana tota ba e leng gore ke boradikompone a re se tsenyeng ba BURS MR BATSHU (NKANGE): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa dingalo tsa gore ba nne ba re kotele. A re direng se se Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke ema ka bokhutshwane tshwanetseng gore re se dire. Ke a leboga Rraetsho. jaaka gale, segolo bogolo ke ema nokeng Tona mo kopong e a e re beileng. Ke eletsa go mo akgola ka ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND gore o supa boeteledipele jo bo nang le boikarabelo. Fa SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Ke o tshwanelwa ke gore o buise ba o ba eteletseng pele tse a go leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. di botlhoko le fa ba ka seke ba di itumelele o bua fela ka Maabane ke kile ka kgaratlha ka ba ka itlhoboga ka ya gore ke jone boeteledipele joo. Boeteledipele gape bo go robala fela Mokwena. Ke tla a nna mokhutshwane mo a reetsa, jaaka e rile fa re ntse re buisana ka Budget ra go tona thata. Tota Mr Speaker, ke emela dintlhanyana nna ra re boradikgwebo ba Batswana a ba nenekediwe di le pedi fela. Ya ntlha ke gore ke akgole Tona,

80 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 VALUE ADDED TAX (INCREASE IN REGULATIONS THRESHOLD) REGULATIONS, 2010 - Resolution (Resumed Debate) mothusi wa gagwe le lephata la gagwe la tsa madi le start by thanking Honourable Members for their full ditogamaano. Gantsi fa re bua ka dilo tsa makgetho le support for this motion. Well, Honourable Mabiletsa is salaries jaana, le dipe tse di amanang le tsone tse pedi not here. I was going to start with him, to say I thank tse, re nna bogale mo go feteletseng. Re bo re bue jaaka him for realising that I do listen. Although I must be o kare re raya gore Tona le lephata la gagwe la Finance honest to say that sometimes when things are said the ke batho ba senang pelo, ba e leng gore tota sa bone ke way they are said in this House by some people when go humanegisa batho mo go feteletseng. Fa re bua ka it is quite clear that they are not true, it becomes very ya regulations ya yone VAT, ke ne ke re ke leboga Tona strenuous to listen. But that having been said, I would gore ke itse gore mo makgethong one a a VAT a, kana like to comment on just one or two things. Honourable Mapalamente ga ba itse ka gore gongwe ga go ise go Saleshando senior, you have a point when you say buiwe jalo. The amount that goes before the Director that we must do some public education, so that people General wa tax, le ene Tona go kopiwa maitshwarelo e know their rights especially those who may want to le dikompone tse ditona le tse dipotlana go sa duelwa de-register. That will be done. lekgetho, jaanong le godile mo go feteletseng, e a gakgamatsa. Mme ke batla gore Palamente e dumalane Honourable Modubule, I think there is only one le nna gore ka gore Tona o itshwarela batho ba ba point that I will respond to when you were saying kolotang lekgetho ka bokete jo bo kalo kalo, go raya that VAT affects everybody, every consumer. That is gore tota Tona o a bo a itse gore o mo go eng. E ne e correct, but that is the subject that we were dealing le ntlha ya ntlha e ke neng ke batla go feta ka yone ke with yesterday. Today I am concerning myself with mo akgola, gore ba ba ratang gore ba re ga a na pelo ba businesses, exempting those whose threshold is under itse gore ga go a nna jalo. Malatsi otlhe le gone ga go P500 000. As I have indicated, I believe that this will na letsatsi le le fetang go sa tla dikopo tsa gore, “Tona also have the effect of reducing their operational cost, intshwarele ke go kolota lekgetho le le gakgamatsang and therefore hopefully that could have a positive jaanong le nkhupeditse ga ke kgone.” effect on the price of their goods, and that will in turn also benefit the consumers. Otherwise on the things Ntlha ya bofelo rra, ke dumela ke re gongwe mongwe that you were talking about Honourable Modubule, I wa Bakaulengwe o ka e ke utlwile e umakiwa. Mme would like to thank Honourable Mangole, Honourable mma ke bue gore, tota selo se re se tlhokang thata Venson-Moitoi and Honourable Tshireletso because bogolo jang mo go bone ba ba tla a bong ba ntsha they have answered you very well. So I have nothing VAT ka fa tlase ga threshold e, tota re tlhoka thuso e e more to add, and then finally... gakgamatsang. Ke gore nna ga ke itse gore go ka dirwa jang gore re rute Batswana gore lekgethonyana le fa MR MODUBULE: Honourable Speaker, I just le tla le kana ga se la gago. Go tla a tshela ba ba ka wanted to take it from the Minister, what is the position fa tlase ga threshold ka gore bone ga ba ye go kgetha. regarding this VAT issue with regard to having to ask Mathata a rona ke gore fa motho a tsaya lekgetho le for exemption certificates and all that? Is the Minister la ga goromente le, go na le gore a fetise madi a a ise saying that is the route to take, because that is all I kwa go mokgethisi mogolo, ke gore motho o a a dirisa, want to find out exactly, what is the right course of ke one a a duelang, fa gongwe a bo a reke stock ka action for those whom you have already exempted by one. Kgwedi ya ntlha o dira jalo, fa go setse gotwe passing this Act? Do they then have to go to council duela jaanong go go tona go kana. Fa o ne o utlwa and ask for exemption certificates in order for them Honourable Mabiletsa a re hee wee! go a reng jaana, to tender? tota e a bo e le molato wa rona. Ke a kopa rra gore MR MATAMBO: I am winding up Honourable le fa re dumalana le wena e re ke sena go nna ke go Speaker. I know that you have made an argument akgolela bopelotlhomogi jwa gago ke go reye ke re, o Honourable Modubule, that if businesses are already re rute. Golo mo go dira dilo tse pedi gore fa re ntse re under the threshold what is the need to ask them to bring go kopa maitshwarelo kana re fokotsa budget ya gago an exemption certificate. I think logically you may be e o beileng mo go yone gore VAT e tla a nna bokae. right, but I think in terms of what happens in practice, Gape ga o sa re itshwarele ra re o pelo e mpe rra o tla a you have been answered by those who have experience. re thubela dikompone. Ke tsaya gore o nkutlwile. Ke a I now conclude Honourable Speaker, by also thanking mo leboga Mr Speaker, re dumalana le ene. Honourable Batshu and Honourable Rakhudu for MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT informing this nation. I hope that it will be on the radio PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Thank you Mr tonight, that the Minister of Finance and Development Speaker. I can afford to be brief this time but let me Planning also has a heart. This minister has a heart.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 81 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 NATIONAL TRADE POLICY FOR BOTSWANA 2009 - Motion

Mr Speaker it is now my pleasure to conclude prospective trading partners. To be effective the trade by moving that the Value Added Tax increase in policy would be supported and complemented by registration threshold regulations 2010, as published several pieces of legislation such as the trade Act, in the Botswana Government Gazette as Statutory the competition Act, the control of goods, prices and Instrument No. 17 of 2010 be approved. I thank you. other charges Act, the industrial property Act, the copy right and neighbouring right Act. Mr Speaker, on the Question put and agreed to. international arena Botswana has entered into several NATIONAL TRADE POLICY FOR trade agreements and arrangements at multi lateral, BOTSWANA 2009 regional and bilateral levels. These include but not limited to the World Trade Organisation (WTO), the Motion Southern African Development Community (SADC), the Southern African Customs Union (SACU) and the MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MS African Growth and Opportunity Act (AGOA), the MAKGATO-MALESU): Thank you very much Mr SADC EC Interim Economic Partnership Agreements Speaker. Good afternoon. Mr Speaker I have the honour (SADCECIEPA) and the bilateral trade agreements to present before this Honourable House the second with Malawi and Zimbabwe. These agreements reading of the National Trade Policy for Botswana define the trade policy space that Botswana has with 2009 for adoption. her existing and prospective training partners. Mr Botswana has never had a national trade policy Speaker, the strategic policy considerations defining document to guide her relations with other countries. the core elements and content of this policy include However, trade policy positions have been based on the following; various pieces of legislation, official documents, trade a) effective negotiation of trade agreements for negotiation positions and statements by national leaders the creation of market access opportunities for hence the need for this policy. The proposed national Botswana goods and services. trade policy will therefore serve as a framework for Botswana’s trade agenda. The policy highlights b) tariff base majors to support industrial development, government stand on trade matters through specific achieve balance of payments and protect domestic policy statements, guidelines and pronouncements procedures from unfair business practices. on trade and trade related issues, including export development, market access, import substitution, trade c) non-tariff measures that are ordinarily not meant facilitation, rules of origin and customs procedures. to restrict trade but have over the years come to The objective of the proposed trade policy is to be used more due to the progressive elimination facilitate access to markets for Botswana’s export of of tariffs. goods and services and enabling consumers access to d) facilitating trade development to address supply a wider international goods and services on the best side constraints and enhancing trade in services. possible terms. The proposed trade policy also covers cross cutting The underlying principles for the proposed policy include issues which are of fundamental importance to trade among others the need to achieve export diversification, such as environment, infrastructural development, economic diversification, free market economy, global gender and youth, health and information and competitiveness, private sector development, citizen communication technology. In view of its general economic empowerment and poverty reduction. Mr impact, the proposed national trade policy calls for Speaker, the proposed trade policy shaped by the consultation across the broad spectrum of society. domestic legislation and policy as well as Botswana’s In this regard, several stakeholders comprising international trade arrangements. On the domestic government, parastatals, the private sector and non- front the policy is influenced by our national vision, governmental organisations have been consulted. On th Vision 2016, the 10 National Development Plan (NDP the institutional arrangement, the Ministry of Trade 10), the industrial development policy, competition and Industry will coordinate the implementation of the policy, and other initiatives such as the development proposed policy in consultation with key stakeholders of national export strategy for Botswana and the such as government ministries and departments, local private sector development strategy. These policies authorities, parastatals, the private sector and the civil and strategies define the trade policy environment society. In addition, the National Committee on Trade for investors in Botswana as well as the parameters Policy and Negotiations (NCTPN) under my ministry, for negotiating trade agreements with existing and

82 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 AMENDMENT OF THE SCHEDULES OF THE CUSTOMS AND EXECISE DUTY ACT (CAB 50:01) - Motion will serve as the main consultative forum in the establishing the necessary institutions is still underway, implementation of the proposed policy. Mr Speaker, prior consultation does take place before major changes the Parliamentary Committee on Foreign Affairs are effected. Notwithstanding the foregoing and where Trade and Security which serves as a link between the it is necessary, the BLNS Member States can also Ministry and Parliament, will be kept abreast on the make applications for tariff changes on behalf of their implementation of this proposed policy. industries to the existing tariff institution that is, for the time being, serving as a SACU Tariff Board and which Mr Speaker, this concludes my presentation and I is based in South Africa. therefore move that this Honourable House resolves that the National Trade Policy for Botswana 2009 be Until the necessary SACU structures are fully adopted. I thank you Mr Speaker. operational, SACU Member States are obliged to continue applying laws relating to Customs and Excise MR SPEAKER: The matter is open for debate. Duties, which are similar to those in force in South HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga go na. Africa as amended from time to time. It is for this reason that amendments to the Customs and Excise MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister please respond Duty Schedules are made. to the debate. Mr Speaker, examples of some of the amendments MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MS that have been made to the Customs and Excise Duty MAKGATO-MALESU): Thank you Mr Speaker. Schedules are as follows; May I thank my colleagues for endorsing what I have just presented before them and therefore move that a) In terms of Statutory Instrument No. 96 of 2009, this Honourable House resolves for the National Trade the rate of customs duty for television sets imported Policy for Botswana, 2009 be adopted. from member countries of European Free Trade Association was reduced from 25 per cent to 18.8 PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR per cent. SACU has a trade agreement with the APPROXIMATELY 30 MINUTES European Free Trade Association countries and these are not part of the European Union. Question put and agreed to. b) With regard to Statutory Instrument No. 100 AMENDMENT OF THE SCHEDULES of 2009, the rates of customs duty on synthetic OF THE CUSTOMS AND EXECISE filament yarn and sewing thread of synthetic fibres DUTY ACT (CAB 50:01) are reduced from 15 per cent to free. The Statutory Motion Instrument also cancelled all the rebates on sewing thread as the tariff heading was no longer attracting ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND duties and this made the rebate redundant. DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR TIBONE): Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, Honourable Mr Speaker, it should however be noted that while Members should by now have received copies of a the reduction of rates of duties on goods benefits local number of Statutory Instruments, which list in detail the consumers and manufacturers, such a reduction of the various amendments that have been made to the Customs rates on imported goods, also lowers the revenue that and Excise Duty Act. These were formally laid before accrues to the SACU Customs Revenue Pool. th this Honourable House on the 18 February 2010. It should be pointed out Mr Speaker, that as part of the As I have previously informed the Honourable House, regional integration that is ongoing, as well as through the new Southern African Customs Union Agreement the actions of the World Trade Organisation (WTO), (SACUA) which came into effect in July 2004, most countries are reducing tariff rates against each other. provides for equal participation by all Member States These reductions will help in strengthening relations with in the determination of Customs duty tariffs. In order countries that trade with each other at a level of companies to operationalise this provision, Member States of in order to buy more from each other. SACU are still finalising their processes to establish the Mr Speaker, I now move that this Honourable House National Bodies as well as the SACU Tariff Board. The resolves that the amendments to the Customs and operations of these institutions is going to ensure full Excise Duty Act (CAP 50.01), which were published implementation of the Agreement as far as tariff matters in the Government Gazette as Statutory Instruments are concerned. I should point out that while the work of numbers 96 and 100 of 2009 and numbers one and two

Hansard No 163 Part 4 83 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION POLICY OF 2010 - Motion

of 2010 which were laid before the Honourable House a) The Declining Population Growth Rate on 18th February 2010 be approved by this Honourable House. I so move. I thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, the 1997 Policy objective was premised on the need to restrain the rapid growth MR SPEAKER: The matter is open for debate. of the population. This was in recognition of the Honourable Minister, please respond to the debate. fact that a high population growth presents a challenge to government efforts to improve the ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND delivery of services and its ability to maintain DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR TIBONE): I as well as sustain the natural environment. The so move Mr Speaker. population growth rate of Botswana was estimated Amendment put and agreed to. at 3.5 per cent per annum between 1981 and 1991. It declined to 2.4 per cent between 1991 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION and 2001, thereby presenting less of a challenge POLICY OF 2010 than it was in the 1980s.

Motion b) The Revised Population Policy Goal

MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT Mr Speaker, the goal of the Revised Population PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Thank you very Policy of 2010 is, “improved quality of life and much Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I have the pleasure to standard of living for all people in Botswana; present to this Honourable House, the Draft Revised with the cardinal elements of low morbidity and National Population Policy of 2010. mortality; managed urbanization, population distribution and migration; improved housing The first comprehensive National Population Policy and sanitation, increased access to services and was adopted by this Honourable House in 1997. Its resources; full employment; reduced poverty, goal was, “improved quality of life and standard of diversified economy, sustained and more equitably living for all people in Botswana; with the cardinal distributed growth.” This revised goal, entails elements of reduced population growth, low fertility, a holistic approach that addresses population low morbidity and mortality, and a balanced population concerns within the context of national development distribution.” planning, the national aspirations outlined in Reasons for the new Policy Vision 2016, and the country’s commitment to the implementation of the internationally agreed Mr Speaker, it is thirteen years since the adoption of compacts and policy frameworks such as the the first policy. In 2007, my ministry started a process Millennium Development Goals. to review this policy with a view to incorporating the lessons learnt from its implementation. The review c) Policy Strategies took note of the increased impact of HIV and AIDS Mr Speaker, the Revised Population Policy on the population’s mortality and morbidity and its of 2010 is proposing a number of strategies general wellbeing. The pandemic has impacted heavily to achieve its objectives. The strategies are on the demographic outlook of the population which divided into; demographic and population health; necessitated a review. By contrast, fertility declined population groups; population distribution and sharply from the 1990’s level of 4.2 children per woman migration; social services and poverty; resources, to about 2.9 in 2007, which is already below the 1997 development and environmental conservation; policy target of 3.2 by 2011. The review was also research, information and communication; gender, necessitated by the institutional transformation that our culture and the law; and trade and international government has gone through since the mid-1990s. relations. I will, in the interest of time not go into The adoption of the Millennium Development Goals details of such strategies with the assumption that (MDGs) in 2000 also gave a new impetus to our Honourable Members have had the opportunity development framework. The Revised National to have a look at the draft policy document. Population Policy of 2010 recognises the MDGs as Framework for Policy Implementation, Monitoring well as global framework for improving the wellbeing and Evaluation of the people. Similarly, Mr Speaker, the implementation, monitoring Salient issues of the Revised National Population and evaluation mechanisms are spelt out in the draft Policy policy document.

84 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION POLICY OF 2010 - Motion

Consequently, Mr Speaker, and in conclusion, I would batla go e reka, it should be considered gore o duetse like to express my gratitude for the useful suggestions rental bokae, ntlo e agilwe bokae. Le fa go na le market and positive contributions made by all government forces tsa market value and stuff like that, mme wena fa ministries, civil society and members of the private go setse go ya go goroga mo seemong seo, o batla go sector who assisted in refining the document before nna le ntlo ka gore motho mongwe le mongwe needs you. The intervention, objectives and strategies of this shelter above his/her head. Fa go tsena foo, rona re leba policy were developed with their involvement. gore yone rental e, e le sekai Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, e tshwanetswe ke gore e lebelelwe. Fa o I am therefore, happy Mr Speaker, to move at this point tsaya tsamaiso ya gompieno ya BDP, o tsaya jaaka BHC in time that this Honourable House resolves that the e dira, fa o batla go reka ntlo e e saleng e agiwa ka 1966, Draft Revised National Population Policy of 2010 be gongwe e bile ka nako e e neng e agiwa ka R30… adopted. I thank you Sir. HONOURABLE MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR MABILETSA (KGATLENG EAST): Ke a go leboga Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa MR MABILETSA: Yes. Kana Type 4 and Type 5 Palamente. Ke ema go supa kemo nokeng ya molao houses tse di teng tse, go ne go fopholwa mmu go bo tsamaiso kakanyetso o Tona a o re bayang pele. Ke go tshelwa fela. A pocket of cement at that time e ne molao tsamaiso kakanyetso ka ga re ise re o dumele. e le 50c as contrasted to P70 or P100 ba ba duelwang Fa o ka tsaya diphathi tsa sepolotiki ka bophara gompieno. Jaanong, fa o setse o tsamaisa ka tsamaiso tsotlhe, botlhe ke ba ba buang ka go leka go tokafatsa ya gompieno, fa o re o ya go e reka, it is going to be matshelo a Batswana fa ba fiwa sebaka sa gore ba valued o bo o bolelelwa market value e e tsamaelanang buse. Se se farologanyang diphathi tsa sepolotiki ke le prices tsa gompieno. Ke nngwe ya dilo tse di leng approach ya gore fa go tla mo thutong, rona re le ba teng. Tsone tse, ke supa fela gore ke dipharologanyo tse Botswana National Front (BNF) re tsamaisa jaana, ba di leng teng. Rotlhe re eleletsa morafe wa rona o o re Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) ba tsamaisa jaana, tlhophileng botshelo jo bo nang le boleng jo bo rileng. ba Botswana Congress Party (BCP) ba tsamaisa jaana. Jaaka gompieno Tona a ne a bua thata le ka employment, Essentially dilo tse tsotlhe tse re tsayang gore di dira yes, ba rotlhe re bua ka yone. Mme fa o ka lebelela… gore motho a tshele botshelo jwa setho, e le a quality life, rotlhe diphathi tsa sepolotiki re eletsa sone seemo ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL se se tshwanang le se. AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR M. E. MASISI): Ke kopa tlhaloso. Ke a Ka one mabaka a a ntseng jaana, ba party ya rona ya leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke BNF, ba bua dikgang tse, albeit dipharologanyo tsa a leboga Mokaulengwe. Ke kopa gore o ntlhalosetse gore approach ya rona e ntse jang. Fa ke go fa sekai fa, Honourable Mabiletsa, gore jaaka o re packet ya Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, fa re tla mo cement e ne e le 50c ka nako ya matlo a Type 5 a agiwa, kgannyeng ya temo, re le BNF re dumela ka botlalo gore tlhwatlhwa ya one e le R30, a o eletsa gore gompieno fa e ne e le gore goromente o ne a ikaegile thata ka temo a tswelele a rekisiwe ka madi one a a lekanang le a a ya nosetso, re ka bo re sena mathata a lehuma, even neng a agiwa ka yone? Fa e le gore go ntse jalo, a o tla indeed mathata a boIpelegeng jaaka re na le bone. Tota a eletsa gore wena Mokaulengwe o amogele madi a a fa o tsaya kwa temong, temo ga e fele. Mme fa o tsaya neng a amogelwa ka nako ya go simololwa boipuso? diteemane, ke dilo tse di felang. Mme okare rotlhe re Ke a leboga. bua ka gore tota there must be food security e le by way of trying to improve the quality of life. Jaanong se ke se MR MABILETSA: Ke a go leboga Motlotlegi, mme buang ke gore, rona maBNF re bua jalo, e le nngwe ya ngwanaka o kare ga o ka ke wa nkgotsa. Nna rraago ga aspects tse di tsamaelanang le this population policy. ke akanye jalo. Ka mabaka a go nna jaana and many other factors tse MR SPEAKER: What is ngwanake in Parliament? ke ka di buang, go a tlamega e bile go a patelesega gore at minimum, goromente wa letsatsi yo o teng o MR MABILETSA: Ngwanake ke Motlotlegi Masisi. tshwanetswe ke gore a itlhalose gore a reng. Ga kere o na le ngwana wa gago ke Motlotlegi Dumelang Saleshando. Le nna yole ke ngwanake. Rona ba re seng mo pusong, re tla a tswelela re mo kgala. Re kgala tsamaiso ya bone. Re e tshwantshanya Se tota ke lekang go se bua rraetsho, is not so much le jaaka rona re eletsa. Jaaka gompieno rona maBNF re gore a re ka boela kwa ditlhwatlhweng tsa go nna jalo re, fa e le gore gongwe o hirisa ntlo e le ya Botswana kana re ka busetsa matshelo a rona kwa morago. Se Housing Corporation (BHC), rental e o e duelang up ke se buang fela ke gore, ba botlhe re le diphathi tsa to 30 to 40 years o ntse o nna mo ntlong, fa o setse o sepolotiki ka go farologana, re eleletsa batho ba rona

Hansard No 163 Part 4 85 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION POLICY OF 2010 - Motion

better standard of living. Mme fa re ba eleletsa seemo tshwana le HIV/AIDS. Go bo go tswe mo go gone se se tshwanang le se, go tla a nna go farologana. That go lemoga jalo gore ditsela tse dingwe tse di botoka is why ke re policy e tshwana le e, re eletsa gore e tle tse di ka tsewang e ka nna di fe. Go na le gore go tle fa pele ga rona, o tla a fitlhela e le gore fa o ka lebelela gotwe bana kana banana ba fetogile mekgwa le ka fa manifestoes tsa diphathi tse tsotlhe, dilo tse Tona a di ba tshelang ka teng e le go abelela fela go sa tsholwa buang di mo teng. Jaanong gompieno o ne a dira a dipalo kana go ka seke go supiwe sepe se se supang document that he wants to sell as a government paper, gore go ntse jalo. Thulaganyo e, e re lemotsha gore le jaaka gompieno if we approve it, ga se ya ga Domkrag, mo ditshekatshekong tsa e dirwa, go ne ga lebiwa gore e nna ya ga goromente. Fa e nna ya ga goromente, batho ba ba ratang go nna mmogo mme ba sa nyalana. therefore re na le seabe mo go yone. It is a fact. Ke bua A selo se a se a etesegela, a se a oketsega, kana se a boammaaruri Motlotlegi. fokotsega? Thulaganyo e e botlhokwa thata.

Ka one mabaka a a ntseng jaana, ke tsaya gore go a Go na le seemo sa gore batho ba le bantsi ga ba na patelesega gore e re go na le policy e e dirisiwang nako mebereko le seemo sa letlhoko la boroko. Kana le ka le nako, e re fa dipaka di ntse di fetoga, e lebelelwe fenngwa fela kana la rulaganyediwa fa e le gore go na go bona gore a e ntse e tsamaelana le seemo se se le sengwe se se bopegileng se se supang bokete jwa fetogang. Ka one mabaka a a tshwanang le a, ke ne seemo se. Thulaganyo e, maikaelelo a yone le se e se ke tsaya gore puo e Tona a e re beileng pele e re e tshotseng, a bonala a le botlhokwa thata. tshotseng gompieno fano, ke puo e e botlhokwa fela thata. Ke tsaya gore dintlha tse a di amileng jaaka ke Se se tshwenyang mo lefatsheng la rona, ke se ke se bua, ke tsa diphathi tsa rona. Re tl aa farologana fela dumelang se tshwanetse dikereke le bogosi. Bogolo jang ka gore re dira…interruption… Mr Speaker, ke kopa mo go thuseng go fetola mekgwa ya batho le maikutlo a protection ya gago. bone a go dira le go akanya. Ke dumela gore fa moruti kwa kerekeng ya gagwe a bua le phuthego ya gagwe, MR SPEAKER: Yes, I will do that before you provoke fa a e raya a re, ‘le seka la ikanya go nna le bana ba le other Honourable Members. bantsi ka go tla a le ketefalela mo matshelong a lona’, ba ithaganelela go reetsa, go gaisa go reetsa mapolotiki MR MABILETSA: Ke tsaya gore kgang e Tona a re e ka fa tlase ga meriti ya ditlhare. Ka gore o bua a lebile beileng pele ke kgang e e botlhokwa e e leng gore le fa lefoko la Modimo le matshelo, a ba ikatametsa, ka go ba re ka bo re farologana ka approach, mme fela o dirile gakolola mo go tse a di buang. Ke dumela gore bogosi fa sengwe, o a leka. Ke bone ba ba tshwereng gompieno. bo tshwaragana bo bua ka matshelo a batho, boitshwaro Ke tsaya gore re tshwanelwa ke gore re mo fe sebaka... jwa bana, le gore o nna le bana ba le kae mo lelwapeng, MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members setshaba se itlhagenelela go reetsa ka go a bo go bua I regret I am told we have just lost a quorum. Thank mogolo. Ka gore “lefoko la kgosi le agelwa mosako”. you Honourable Skelemani for rescuing us. Please Makgotla a mabedi a, a botlhokwa thata gore Tona a come through Honourable Skelemani, you are a very tsene mo dithutuntshong le mo dipuisanyong le bone important man to this House. gore ba thuse thulaganyo e ntsha gore e bope koketsego ya setshaba. E oketsege ka thulaganyo e ditsompelo MR MABILETSA: Ka one mabaka a ke neng ke a tsa lefatshe di ka e kgonang e seng gore koketsego ya ntsha, ke ema Tona nokeng gore re mo letlelele gore letsholo jaanong e imele ditsompelo tse lefatshe le nang pampiri e ya gagwe e fete. Ke a go leboga Mr Speaker. natso tsa go tlhokomela matshelo a batho.

MR KESUPILE (KANYE SOUTH): Mma ke kgwe Go lebega gape gore lebaka le motho a le tshelang le lone Tona dikgaba mo mafokong a a botlhokwa a thulaganyo le amiwa ke dilo tse di farologanyeng. Thulaganyo e e e a sa tswang go e re neela. Ke thulaganyo e e botlhokwa raya gore, e tla a thusa go itebaganya le dithuto tse batho mo matshelong a batho mo ditlhabololong. Ke ba ka fetolang mekgwa ya bone ya go itlhokomela. Le thulaganyo e e leng botlhokwatlhokwa jo ke sa itseng ba botsogo ba nna le tema e ba e segang gore le bone ba gore ke ka bo lekanya kana ka bo tshwantshanya le eng. thuse matshelo a batho. Kana batho re batla go tshelela Ke yone mokolela o ditlhabololo di akanngwang kana ruri, ga re batle go felela mo dingwageng tsa bo50 le di botswang go lebilwe gore wa reng, o tshotse eng. bo65. Re batla go tshelela ruri gore e re le fa o le 120, go Ke thulaganyo e e fedisang go abelela mo gongwe mo bo go ntse gotwe o monana fela. O tshela jalo lebaka le o fitlhelang go sa ikaega ka sepe. Fa ke fa sekai; kana le leele ka botsogo jo bontle, jo bo nonofileng. Ka jalo maikaelelo a thulaganyo e ke go tokafatsa matshelo Tona, ka re thulaganyo e e botlhokwa mme e bile e batla le go tlhabolola lefatshe. Thulaganyo e e re lemotsha go tsewa ka matsetseleko ke makgotla otlhe le setshaba bokete le mathata a re a bakelwang ke segajaja se ka kakaretso. Ka go rialo, ke amogela kopo ya gago.

86 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION POLICY OF 2010 - Motion

MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR a mangwe ka kakaretso. Ka gore fa re ne re feletse mo MOLEFHI): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa leagong le le atamalanyeng, ditshenyegelo tsa rona tsa Palamente. Ke emela go ema tshutiso e Tona a tlang go isa ditirelo kgakalakgakala kwa, gongwe di ka bo ka yone nokeng. Setshaba ka kakaretso se ntse se a di le dipotlana. lemoga botlhokwa jwa dikgang tse tse di tsamaelanang le tse re di beilweng pele mo maitseboeng ano. E ne ya MR ARONE: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. re mo malatsing a a sa tswang go feta, ka nna le nako ya Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente le gore ke kopane le Batswana fela ba baithaopi ba e leng Tona. Tona o tshwere kgang fela e e botlhokwa thata ya gore ba setse e bile ba kwadisitse lekgotla la boithaopo gore batho ba phatlaletse le lefatshe le. Ke re gongwe le le itebagantseng le dikgang tse gompieno Tona a re Tona a tlhalose gore mabaka e ka tswa e le eng. Ke eng di rolelang fa. Mo go nna ke bokao jwa gore bo ntse bo se se palang gore mo Botswana re kgone go ka nna a sa mo go rona Batswana. Re lemoga gore togamaano mo mafelong a le mangwe fela. Ke eng re phatlalala le go akanyetsa matshelo le katlego ya rona, ga se ga jaana, gongwe go ka re thusa thata fa re ntse re akanya puso e le esi. Ke mo go lopang gore re le setshaba ka bothata jo. kakaretso, re eme maiteko le maikaelelo a nokeng. MR MOLEFHI: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo Fa re bua ka ditogamaano tsa matshelo, re tshwanelwa tsa Palamente. Kana re phatlaletse jaana ka gore mongwe ke go itse gore batho bone ba ba ditogamaano tse ba di le mongwe a re, “ke morafe, ke Kgosi, mongwe le direlwang, ke batho ba selekanyo se fe ka dingwaga, mongwe a re thota ke ya me.” Jaanong, fa re ne re lemoga dithota tsa bone, dikeletso le bong jwa bone. Re a ne re botlhokwa, bodiphatsa kana bokete jwa kgaogano e ya bolelelwa gotwe bomme ba feta borre, ga re itse gore rona ka fa re ntseng ka teng, re ka bo gongwe re lemoga a go bolelelwa ruri. A mme fa dipalo tse tsa bomme di gore go botlhokwa gore re atamalane. Gompieno, e le feta tsa borre, a go na le ditogamaano dingwe tse di sekai Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, rona re le faphegileng tse ba tshwanelwang ke gore ba di direlwe ba ba abang lefatshe, re na le dikgwetlho mo metseng go gaisa bong jo bongwe. Dilo tse di botlhokwa re e mengwe. Kgwetlho ya gore fa re aba ditsha, bontlha di emele ka dinao rotlhe. Paakanyo, phetogo kana bongwe jwa metse e mengwe ka metse e e na le dikgotlana tlhabololo e e dirilweng in the policy e e ntseng e le tsa yone, dikgotla tse dingwe lefatshe le le ka abiwang teng, ke dumela gore e tla a bona kemo nokeng e ntsi. le setse le fedile. Mme ditsha di le teng mo motseng E bona kemo nokeng bogolo jang le mo komiting ya one oo; kwa dikgotleng tse dingwe. Ba dikgotlana tse Palamente e le yone e itebagantseng le dikgang tse. lefatshe le ba feletseng tse ba ka abelwang mo go lone, Gore e seka ya re go tloga fano fa ya nna kgang e e ba gana go bewa kwa dikgotleng tse dingwe, ba re ga se tla a bong e salela Tona wa tsa Lephata la Madi le kwa ga bone. Jaanong dilo tse, ke tsone tse di ketefatsang Ditogamaano le bodiredi jwa gagwe. Re le committee go nontshiwa ga ditogamaano tsa rona le sepe se re neng ya Palamente re eme ka dinao go tsaya dikgang tse re ka se abelwa. re di baya pele setshaba gore setshaba le sone se nne Ke ne ke santse ke tsena mo kgannyeng ya gore fa bontlha bongwe jwa megopolo le dikakanyo tse. re ne re kgobokanye, re atamalanye; a re tseye batho Fa re lebelela molao wa rona kana tsamaiso ya rona ya ba kgaolo ya Okavango, gongwe re ne re sa anama go tlhomamisa metse, gompieno re ne re ntse re bua ka le kgaolo ele ka fa re ntseng ka teng gompieno, re bo250 gore, go ka tlhongwa motse ka palo e e kalo. A atamalanye. Ba dikgaolwana tse dingwe gongwe ka mme tsamaiso e ke yone e re bonang e ka re sologela kwa North East le bone ba atamalanye, ba Tswapong molemo? A re na le meamuso le ditshenyegelo tse di ba atamalanye, dilo tse di ne di ka dira gore re nne le ka itebaganyang le go tlhoma metse ya mathibelelo a social welfare programme e e gaisang ya mafatshe lefatshe go anama le lefatshe le. A mme ke yone a mangwe. Gompieno ditshenyegelo tsa rona re di tsela e e botlhale ya go dirisa meamuso e? Dilo tse dirisetsa services. A re tseye tsela e le sekai. Fa o tswa re tshwanelwa ke gore re di bue. Di ka bo di lebega mo Kang o ya kwa Ghanzi, fa gare ga Kang le Ghanzi ke di le botlhoko gongwe di nna bokete mo go bangwe. Khaxai, Bere, Hanahai East le Hanahani West. Fa o bala Go botlhokwa gore re lemoge gore re le setshaba se dipalo tsa batho ba ba leng foo, ga di fete 3,000. Mme re se kananyana, re ise re fitlhe kwa go 2 million, re dirisitse millions of money go dira sekonotere gore se ye phatlaletse le lefatshe la selekanyo sa 580 000 km2. go goroga kwa. Ke ditshenyegelo tse di turu. Mme e a re Ditshenyegelo tsa go isa ditlamelo le ditirelo kwa batho fa ba bua gore puso le phathi e di a palelwa, ga ba bathong botlhe kwa ba leng teng di kwa godimo. Sone ele tlhoko gore our greatest expense ke infrastructure, se, se nyafatsa bofefo jo bo neng bo ka dirwa go atisa gore gongwe le gongwe kwa motho a leng teng re fitlhe matshelo a batho, go ba atametsa ditlhabololo, go ba kwa go ene. Mme fa re ne re atamalanye, ditogamaano tokafaletsa matshelo e ka tswa e le a thuto, botsogo le tsa rona di ne di ka nna botoka.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 87 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION POLICY OF 2010 - Motion

Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, tota a me a ne re neng re ile kwa go gone this morning. Sanitation a le makhutshwane gore ke tlhomamisetse Tona gore kwa dikgaolong Mr Speaker, ke mathata. Go setse go go na le baema nokeng ba Batswana ba ba rutang kwa supagala e le gore metsi a re a a nwang, a setse a na le university le Batswana ka kakaretso ba ba setseng ba mathata. Ka gore go sa dirisa ga rona tikologo sentle, dirile associations. Ba e leng gore maikaelelo a bone ke go setse go ama metsi a re a epang gore re a siele batho. gore kgang e ya gago e o e re bayang pele gompieno, ba Lenaneo le le siame fela thata. Thapelo ya me ke tla a go eme nokeng mo go yone. Ba e tseye e le boikarabelo bua jaaka Mopalamente wa Tonota yo mongwe yo o a jwa bone gore ba tle ba tlhomamise gore Batswana ka tleng a bua a re, I am praying a religious prayer gore kakaretso re utlwisiwa dikgang tse di tsamaelanang le e tota re bone mokwalo o montle o o diragadiwa Tona. E gompieno re e buisiwang ke Tona. Ke a leboga. re re bua after five or ten years,re bo re bona e le gore tota seemo sa matshelo a batho se tokafetse. MR ARONE (OKAVANGO): Ke a leboga Mr Speaker. Mma le nna ke supe fela gore ke ema Tona Mma gongwe ke sedimose sengwe, Motsamaisa nokeng. Mma ke akgele mo Goal No.1 e a neng a bua Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ka fa rona re lebang dilo ka yone fa a bua ka go tokafadiwa ga matshelo a batho. ka teng kwa kgaolong ya Okavango, Tona Molefhi le Ke dumalana le ene fela thata, ke tsaya gore ke one ene go na le ka fa a lebang ka teng gore gongwe go moono wa moeteledipele mongwe le mongwe go bona phatlalala mo go dirwa ke batho ba na le keletso ya go batho ba tshela sentle. Mathata fela Tona ke gore, rona ka nna ka semorafe. Yes, go ka tswa go le boammaaruri. ba kwa dikgaolong, ba kwa tengnyanateng, go lebega o Mme thata se re se lemogileng kwa kgaolong ya rona kare go na le mathata a gore puso e tsiboge ka nako go ke gore, ke ka fa re tshelang ka teng, kana mekgwa bona gore seemo sa matshelo a rona se a tokafadiwa. ya matshelo a rona ya go lema le go rua ka nako e le Ke one mathata fela a ke nang le one. nngwe fela. Gone mo go bo go dira gore, kana fa re nna re le bantsi thata mo Ngarange, ke fa sekai, re ya go Kgang e nngwe e re setseng re e lemogile kwa tlhoka le lone lefelo la gore dikgomo di ka ya go nna Okavango, go lebega le bone bagolwane ba kgaolo ba kae. Go nna le dikgotlhang tsa masimo, “dikgomo tsa badirelapuso, ba setse ba supa gore bothata jo ba nang ga rasemangmang di njetse mabele,” jalo jalo. Jaanong, le jone ke gore, go lebega o kare fa go tla mo ditirelong gone mo go dira gore batho ba phatlalale. Ke re gongwe tsa ga goromente, badiri ba na le mathata a go ka le gone re akanye ka fa re ka go dirang ka teng. berekela kwa magaeng a a kwa tengnyanateng. Fa re tsaya sekai, motse o tshwana le Gudigwa, sekole sa Ga ke dumalane le kgang ya gore batho ba phatlalale. teng fa re bua gompieno jaana Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo Le mo pusong nngwe le nngwe tota, go tla a bo go le tsa Palamente, le barutabana ga ba yo, ba bararo fela in turu gore o age sekole kana o ise kokelwana gongwe a primary school. Ka mabaka a gore, batho ka bontsi le gongwe. Re tshwanetse ra bona, re seka ra bua ka ba na le mathata a go ka ya koo. Re itse dikgwetlho kgang e jaaka o kare jaanong re boka mathata. Ke tse di itebagantseng le go ka tshelela mo mafelong a gakologelwa Mapalamente a nako ele ke santse ke a tshwanang le a. Gongwe puso e tle e sekaseke go le kwa sekoleng, ba re jaanong go lebega o kare go bona gore seemo se se ka baakanngwa jang ka gore se bokiwa mathata. A re tsweng ka melao le ditsela tse re re direla bothata. Ditirelo tsa puso ga di goroge kwa ka bonang gore re ka tokafatsa seemo se. bathong, ka mabaka a gore, go a bo go se na bodiredi jo bo ka di gorosang koo. Ya bofelo, Tona o ne a bua gape ka the Settlement Policy ya rona, ka fa re tlhomang metse ya rona ka E nngwe Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke teng gore e rurifadiwe ka tsone dipalo tsa bo250. Ke letlhoko la ditiro. Batho ba rona mo lefatsheng le, dumalana le ene gore tota ke mathata. Mme se ke neng ba amilwe thata ke letlhoko la ditiro, mme thata le a ke re gongwe nna le ene re tla a ya go se buisanya ke bo le ama bone ba ba kwa dikgaolong. Ka gore tota gore, re sekaseke go ka fetola yone Settlement Policy fa o tswa mo lenaneong la Ipelegeng, o tsaya motse ya rona. Gore bogolo provision of potable drinking o tshwana le Sekondomboro le Gani, ga go na sepe water re bone gore re a e diragatsa mo lefatsheng le. gape. Lebentlele ke semausu, le gone se sengwe fela. Ke nngwe ya dikgang tse di amang botsogo le go ka Ke one mathata a re nang le one. E re re ntse re bua ka tshela sentle ga batho ba rona, ka gore mo mafelong gone go tokafatsa le go itepatepanya le go ka goroga a mantsi, ba a bo ba se na metsi a ba ka a nwang. Ke kwa MDGs, re tlhomamise gore re lebeletse seemo sa gakologelwa gore Honourable Molebatsi o ne a re dikgaolo tsa lefatshe le thata. rotloetsa gore re kgothatshe batsadi kwa magaeng gore ba leme gore re seka ra gatelelwa ke tlala. Jaanong Seemo sa botshelo fela Tona kwa dikgaolong ke gone mo, go raya gore batho ga ba ka ke ba lema mathata. Fa o tsaya sanitation, re ne re lebeletse pego ka mabaka a gore letlhoko la metsi le a bo le le kwa e nngwe e re neng re e fiwa ke ba Earth Hour, mo

88 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION POLICY OF 2010 - Motion godimo. Ke nngwe ya dikgwetlho tse e leng gore di Generally in this country agriculture is rural. Here and kwa magaeng. Ka mafoko one ao, ke go ema nokeng there you may have a few urban plots like Glen Valley Tona. Ke a leboga. and other places but primarily agriculture is rural based. We need to be clear in our minds that the policy ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TRADE AND guidelines that we have in place indicate to us that the INDUSTRY (MR MOTOWANE): Thank you Mr population is growing in the rural areas or lessening in Speaker. I just want to make a short intervention on the terms of size. presented policy paper on population from the Ministry of Finance and Development Planning, underscoring Obviously we have to come up with a clear guidance the development planning part. which is what this Policy probably will be giving the nation. There is an indication of how much of our Mr Speaker, I could not agree more with the Minister population is becoming urbanized. There are several to the effect that, after 13 years of the policy that was in demands of housing and other services associated with operation, it was time to revise it because our society and urban living. So, to me it is important that this policy other issues have changed over this period. Therefore, it that the Minister presented is timely. Over time, I would is important, proper and timely that we should be moving like to believe that in the last 15 years or so, our urban with times. We should be aligning our population policy population has grown tremendously. At the same time, with the MDGs as they are operational now. The one much as it has been growing, government has been point one would wish to make is to say that, over the coming up with policies or development interventions years, there has been social changes in our population. that are trying to keep our people in the rural areas. We are here to confirm, as Member of Parliament for Selebi Phikwe East was indicating, whether in terms Lastly Mr Speaker, those of us who come from the of gender, our population is more female and growing so-called rural constituencies, it is important that that way or is more male and declining or growing. In we recognise the fact that over time, a lot of these any event, whatever policy, we need to put in place people who have been living in Salajwe, Sorilatholo, regarding gender issues, has to be guided by the policy Kaudwane and other areas have had to wait for some that we are presenting today. Because at the end of the of the development services to reach them. It was not day, we may be talking about the girl child, women because someone deliberately chose to deny them that abuse and female headed households, whether they development. It was because the resources available are growing or declining. Therefore, coming up with a dictated what to do. It is now important that as we policy intervention regarding that, we have to have this transform our policies and introduce more policies over arching one that the Minister was presenting today. including the ones on population, we pay particular We also have to have an idea whether our population is attention and regard to these rural areas that over aging or it is getting younger in terms of distribution. If time have been sacrificing, waiting patiently and it is aging, do we need to come up with more … improvising here and there. The resources were not really permitting that they be provided the services MR SPEAKER: Order Honourable Members, buelang and development projects as quickly and as fast as kwa tlase. they wish they could have. Mr Speaker, we must pay MR MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I was particular attention to these areas because it is not saying, if we have a clear guideline and clear indication just that they are rural. It is also the fact that they had that our population is aging, then we will have good historically lived there. These are people who have no guidance as to whether to introduce more tandabala reason whatsoever to want to migrate to Selebi Phikwe, interventions or to introduce less. If we come up with an Francistown or Gaborone because to them, they would indication that our population is inclined more towards get lost. They would have no life. These are the people the youth, then the Minister of Youth, Sport and Culture who are looking after their merakanyana ya dipodi le would be in a better position when he develops policies dikgomo and their 5, 10 or 17 hectares of land to till. that gravitate towards assisting young people, not just his To them this is the society that makes up Botswana and ministry. We would also in terms of rural development, its diversity. I am impressed that this new, transformed undertake policies and development programmes that and revised policy will hopefully be a little bit more are informed as to whether our population is growing informed when we talk about rural development. more rural or is growing less rural over time. Particularly Mr Speaker, I would therefore, in support of this policy bearing in mind, Mr Speaker, that over the time, there say let us not take 13 or 15 years to review policies has always been some sort of conflict between National such as this one. Let us have our reviews a little bit Settlement Policy, and then the other indications that more frequent because in the 21st century, a lot of say develop the agriculture.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 89 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION POLICY OF 2010 - Motion

social, political and economic transformations occur ba sa kgone go bua. Selo se re tseye gore Population a lot more rapidly, therefore putting challenges on us Policy e ka kgona go re fa guidance ya gore fa o batla to also review our Policies. With those few words Mr go tlhola dilo tse di ntseng jaana, di tshwanetse gore Speaker, I wholeheartedly and strongly support that di bo di le teng mo population census. E boletse gore this policy be adopted. Thank you. le tsone tse di tshwanang le dikole tsa bone, mathata a dipalo tsa bone le gore ba nna fa kae mo lefatsheng MR GABORONE (SOUTH EAST NORTH): Ke a leno re go itse. leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Le nna ke emela go dumalana le gore policy e e fetisiwe ka Tona tota selo se se tona ka policy ke gore e tshwanetse gore e a tlhokafala mo ditogamaanong tsa lefatshe. Fa gore e thuse mo go itseng gore fa ditlhabololo di go dirwa ditogamaano, go lebelelwa dilo dingwe tse di tlhakgisiwa ka lefatshe, a e ka nna ditlhabololo tsa metsi botlhokwa mo matshelong a batho jaaka dikokelo le kana motlakase go bo go itsiwe gore, go direlwa batho dikole. Go tshwanetse go bo go itsiwe gore go berekelwa ba le kae mo lefelong lone leo. Ke a tle ke gakgamale mo go eng. Go na le moono o o amogelesegileng gore ke tsena kwa Serowe, ga ke bue ka letlhoo kana ka fa gotwe kokelo ya bogolo jo bo kana, e tshwanetse sepe, fa o ralala Serowe, go na le tsela e nngwe e o ya agiwa fa lefelong le le rileng, go bo go beilwe mo tsamayang about four or five kilometers mo go yone, e go itseng gore batho ba koo ba kae kana yone policy na le street lights mme go sena le fa e le batho mo go e bolela gore go tshwanetse go bo go na le batho ba le yone foo. O bo o ipotsa gore fa dipone di beilwe fela kae. Re tle re tswe mo go ngongoregeleng gore gantsi fa go ntseng jalo, a go ne go se na motse mongwe o o batho ba bone dikokelo kana dikole ka gore gongwe ba tlhokang dipone fa gare ga one, go na le gore go bo na le mongwe yo o kgonang gore a bue, gongwe a na go dirwa tsela fela e tshubiwa ka dipone e bo e wela le thata. Go akanngwa ka ditsela tseo. Re nne le tsela ele ya Orapa e ralala Serowe mme go se na motho yo e re tla a bong re ka bolelela batho gore dikokelo mo o leng foo. Ke tsone dilo tse dingwe tse e leng gore di Gaborone and neighbouring areas di bontsi bo kae ka tshwanetse tsa thusa go tsamaisa. A go nne go bonwa gore batho ba kana. Tsholofelo ke gore dikokelo tse di gore fa o ka tloga wa re re rumola batho ba bangwe mo ka bo di lebaganye le bokete jwa batho ba le kana. lefatsheng le fa e le gore re tla a dira jaana. Re senya dilo tsa setshaba re di direla lefaufau fela go sena batho Selo se sengwe se re tshwanetseng gore re se lebe mo go tsone. Ke tsone tse ke reng a go nne le yone ke gore, fa re tla mo kgaoganyong ya dikgaolo policy e. Ke a go leboga. tsa botlhophi, policy le yone e tshwanetse gore e itebaganye le selo se. E tswe mo seemong se o tla a MR BATSHU (NKANGE): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa fitlhelang o sa itse gore e tla a re fa gotwe South East e Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Le nna ke ema ka felela kwa dipolaseng tsa Lobatse, o ipotsa gore jang. bokhutshwane go ema Tona nokeng mo tshutisong e Maikaelelo a go dira jalo ke eng? Fa le tla mo goreng a e re beileng pele gore policy e e tle e amogelwe ke le rulaganya ditlamelo, ba Lobatse ba itse gore re felela Palamente e. Ke rata go lebogela gore kgatlhanong le fa mme fa ke ba South East mme o potile Lobatse ka policy e e neng e sekasekwa e, e e na le go rotloetsa kwa. O bo ipotsa gore tota gatwe go ne go dirwa eng. koketsego ya batho. E bua sentle e bile ke ka fa Modimo Ke eng bogolo go ne go sa tsewe bontlha bongwe o laotseng ka teng gore a jaaka re le mo lefatsheng re jwa Lobatse jwa ya ka fa South East fa e le gore jo ntsifale mme e seng go ntsifala mo e leng gore gongwe bo ka kwa north ya Lobatse, go na le gore go ye go e tla a re ka moso re bo re sa kgone gore re itshetse. Ke tsewa dipolase di le ka kwa di bo di nna mo South sone se policy e e se bolelang. Ke ne ke gakgamadiwa East. Dilo tse tsa delimitation le tsone go nne le tsela ke ele ya pele ka gore e ne e kete ga e rotloetse seo mme fela e e tlhamaletseng. E seka ya ne e re fa re feleletsa go na le se re neng re se lebile ka nako eo, bokgoni jwa delimitation re bo re ipotsa gore a gatwe go ne go dirwa itsholelo ya rona go tlhokomela banni ba lefatshe. jalo gore go ketefadiwe constituencies gore di seka tsa nna motlhofo go fenngwa ke batho bangwe. Re bo re Se ke eletsang gore re se gatelele ke gore fa re rotloediwa ka leba policy fela gore yone e bua gore fa batho ba gore re ate, re somarele se e leng gore Modimo o a bo atamalane re tshwanetse ra dira sentle. o se re file e le botshelo. Botshelo bongwe le bongwe bo tla ka thulaganyo ya Modimo. Ga go na botshelo jo Le tsone tsa thuto. Mo gongwe ke a tle ke ipotse gore bo tlang ka kotsi. Ke sone se e leng gore, le fa ba tla a jaaka sekole se se rutang bana ba ba sa kgoneng go bua intshwarela, ke boikarabelo gore fa re le mo lefatsheng, kwa Ramotswa, re a tle re itse gore bana ba ba bokete re seka ra tla go tloga mo lefatsheng le o sa tlogela sepe jo bo kae mo setshabeng. Fa ba le bokete jo bo kalo, a se se ka tsweledisang setshaba pele. Se se raya gone ba tla a kgona go tshela le rona. Ba bua le rona jang, ba gore Batswana re ipatle re bo re ipatlisise re nne le bereka fa kae, ba tsena dikole tse di ntseng jang mme contribution towards this population growth.

90 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION POLICY OF 2010 - Motion

Se sengwe se ke batlang go se gatelela ke gore matshelo, MR BATSHU: Ee, le bone borrabana ba ba ka a tla ka thulaganyo ya Modimo, a somarelwe. Ga go tlhokomele. na mo gotweng motho o ima ka kotsi. A ba e leng gore ba iphitlhela ba imile, ba tseye boikarabelo jwa gore Jaanong kwa bofelong, kana bogologolo kwa re tswang ke thulaganyo ya Modimo, ba tshole bana ba tshele mo teng re ne re itse gore dipalo tsa bomme o ne o fitlhela lefatsheng le re oketsege. E seng seo fela, botshelo bo di feta tsa borre. Go ne go siame ka jaana borrarona tla ka thulaganyo ya Modimo. Fa re tlile mo lefatsheng, mogolo le ba bangwe ba ne ba kgona go pataganya, a re fokotseng dipolaano tse. Dipolaano tse ke sebe fa gore go seka ga nna le bothata jo bo ntseng jaana. pele ga sefatlhego sa Modimo. A re nneng Batswana ba Maloba ke boditse potso fa, ke e botsa ka gore ke ne ke e leng gore re somarela matshelo. lebile gore go sengwe se ke se bonang kwa kgaolong ya me, ke tle ke bone gore a se akaretsa lefatshe lotlhe. Dikotsi tsa dikoloi tse o fitlhelang re tsamaya ka speeds E ne e le Question 485, fa o ntetla ke ka nopola. tse e seng tsone re ya go diga dikoloi, go tlhokafala batho ba le kana kana mo lefatsheng, ga go tlhokafale. A re MR SPEAKER: Do quote. somareleng matshelo otlhe a e leng gore a tla a bo a tlile MR BATSHU: Potso e ne e re, “to ask the Minister of mo lefatsheng le. Re bo re bone mananeo a a akaretsang Education and Skills Development:- maphata otlhe a puso a a tla a dirang gore botshelo bongwe le bongwe bo somarelwe. E ka tswa e le jwa Lephata i) how many pupils enrolled for Standard 1 in all la tsa Botsogo, a ba bone gore botsogo jwa batho bo a primary schools in 2009 and 2010 respectively; tlhokomelesega. Ba sepodise jalo ba bone gore matshelo and a batho a a tlhokomelesega, gore mo re go filweng ke of the number at (i) above, how many were boys Modimo go tle go tshele mo lefatsheng la rona. ii) and girls respectively.” Ke sone se e bileng go le botlhokwa, ke tsaya gore The answer, “Madam Speaker, there were 51,830 phetogo e ya Policy e e tlile ka nako, re lebile palo Standard 1 children in all primary schools in 2009. In batho e e tlang. Re ne re bua maloba re re, palo batho e e 2010, the enrolment at this level was 50,267. In terms tlang, a e dirwe ka manontlhotlho fela jaaka e tlholwa e of gender distribution, there were more boys than girls dirwa. Ke gore mo kgotleng batho ba balelwe golo go le for both years. In 2009, there were 27,207 boys in gongwe fela, gore e tle e re ditogamaano tse di tlang re comparison to 24,623 girls. With respect to 2010, we di akanyetsa kwa morago, they should be informed gore have enrolled 26,140 boys and 24,127 girls.” mo kgotleng e batho ba kae, fela jalo. Go na le gore re bo re ka re re tsena kwa Tutume re bo re re batho ba 100 Se ke batlang go se supa fa rraetsho ke gore re bona 000 re sa ba kgaoganye ka dikgotlana gore ditogamaano diphetogo tse, jaanong di tshwanetse gore go supe kwa tsa ditlhabololo di tle di akanyediwe sentle. re go yang. Ke ne ke santse ke bua le Motlotlegi Tona Rakhudu ke mo raya ke re, jaanong fa e kete borre ba Bagaetsho HIV/AIDS e santse e le teng. Mananeo a a tla a tlhaela basadi jaana, go tla a iwa kae? Jaanong teng a puso a re ntshitseng madi a a kalo go bona gore bone ka ga go na mosadi yo o pataganelang monna mananeo a o a a tswelela, re tshwanetse gore re a emele le yo mongwe, ga go na lefufa, go tla a dirwa jang. ka dinao. BoPrevention of Mother to Child Transmission Jaanong ene a bo a re, “nnyaa ka fa go leng thata ka (PMTCT) re ba tlhwaafalele. Jaaka ke boletse, ga go na teng, go bonala gore mo dingwageng tse di tlang they boimana jo bo tlang ka kotsi. Jaanong fa e le gore, re tla are going to import.” a fitlhela e le gore golo gongwe bangwe ba ba imileng go na le bothata jone joo, a re emeng ka dinao gore re Kgang e ke yone e ke batlang gore re e lebe fa re botsa sireletse bone bana ba ba tla a tsholwang ba, ba tle ba dipotso tse, e a bo e le gone gore re tsibose our planners, sale ba tshegeditse lefatshe le la rona. gore kana go seemo se se tlang. Jaanong ke sone se re bileng re tshwanetse gore re eme ka tlhwaafalo go tla BoSave Our Soul (SOS), batho ba Modimo ba e leng go bona gore palo ya batho e tla a tla e ntse jang mo gore ba ntse ba re tshegeletsa one masea a e leng gore fa ngwageng ono. Indication ke gore o kare dipalo ga di gongwe bommaabo ba e leng gore ga bana boikarabelo, kitla di ya teng. Ka bokhutshwane ke ema Tona nokeng e a re fa ba sena go nna ba ba tshola ba bo ba ba latlha. gore tsamaiso e, e amogelwe ke Palamente. Ke a leboga. Makgotla a a tshwanang ao a tshwanetse gore a engwe nokeng gore a re somarelele matshelo a e leng gore a MR MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): Ke a leboga ratile go ka re tswa ka phatlha tsa menwana. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke ema jaana go ema Bakaulengwe go tswa kwa Lephateng la Madi HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ba tshwana le le Ditogamaano... borrabone ba a ba latlha.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 91 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION POLICY OF 2010 - Motion

MR SPEAKER: Order Honourable Members. Fa re Kgang e nngwe e ke neng ka e lebelela, ke ya setlhogo ka bua ka bokhutshwane re tla a bua rotlhe. sa Population Policy yone e re e beilweng pele. E Tona o setseng a supile gore ba ne ba tsaya tshwetso gore e MR MAKGALEMELE: Botlhe Motlotlegi Matambo tshwane le ya ngwaga wa 1997, ka gore tota e ne e le le Motlotlegi Tibone ka molao tsamaiso o ba re o setlhogo se se lebanyeng. Ke re ke ba ema nokeng mo beileng pele. Pele ke leboge gore mo puong ya ga setlhogong seo sa ‘Improve Quality of Life and Standards Tona le mo ditshekatshekong tse ke di dirileng fa ke of Living.’ Ke setlhogo se e leng gore se re fa tsela re le ipaakanyetsa go tla go nna le seabe mo dipuisanyong setshaba re le baeteledipele ba lefatshe, se tsamaelana le tse, ke lemogile gore e rile fa a ntse a le mo morerong, maikaelelo a lefatshe la rona a Vision 2016. ba ne ba rerisa makgotla a e seng a puso, a ke dumelang gore ke makgotla a a leng botlhokwa thata mo go re Ke ne ka okomela le tse re ikaeletseng gore re tle re thuseng ditlhabololo mo lefatsheng la Botswana. Ke di kgone mo go yone nako ya go diragatsa one molao bo ke leboge gore mo dikomiting tse a di supang e le tsamaiso o re o beilweng pele o. Ke lemogile e le gore tse di tla a bong di mo thusa go tsamaisa tiragatso ya bontsi jwa targets tse re di beilweng pele di siame. Ke molao tsamaiso o, sekai, komiti ya National Council re fela gongwe Tona fa a ntse a sekaseka molao o, fa Population and Development (NCPD), o supile gore a simolola loeto la go o diragatsa le bana ba gagwe, a go tla a nna le baemedi ba le bararo ba makgotla a e lebelele mo Page 28 (6.82) kwa e leng gore teng go seng a puso. Seo ke lebelela e le seemo se se siameng buiwa gore, fa o ka ntetlelela go nopola Motsamaisa thata, ka gore se supa tshwaragano e re le puso re nang Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. le yone le makgotla a e seng a puso. Ke dumela gore re ka kgona ditlhabololo fa tirisanyo mmogo e e ka MR SPEAKER: Do quote. tswelela e ntse e nonotshiwa. Ka gore makgotla a e MR MAKGALEMELE: I quote, “Provide online seng a puso a, le one a na le serwe sa gore e kare fa re health information to all Botswana by 2010.” ntse re tsweledisa ditlhabololo jaana, ba etla ba re thusa go ya go kopa madi mo makgotleng a madi. Mangwe Ke re yone eo gongwe Tona a e lebelele thata, gore a a makgotla a ditlhabololo a e seng a puso ba setse ba mme gone re mo seporong sone se re se ipeetseng. Le na le botsalano fela jo bo tiileng le mangwe makgotla gore a ke selo se se tla a kgonagalang, gore e re mo a madi. Le fa gone re itse gore e rile mo dingwageng go one ngwaga ono wa 2010 re bo re setse se kgonne madi a a neng a le teng mo lefatsheng, makgotla a a sone se re se buileng. E le nngwe ya dintlha tse ke rileng neng a re thusa ka ditlhabololo, mangwe a one a ba ne ke bala molao tsamaiso o ka utlwa e ntshwenya. Ke re ba tswa mo lefatsheng la rona. Go a lebosega Matona gongwe ke gakolole Tona gore gongwe a ye go e lebelela gore e re fa le lebeletse molao tsamaiso o o botlhokwa le Bakaulengwe ba gagwe ba botsogo boMotlotlegi o, le bo le ne le lebeletse gore re ka kgona morero wa Matlhabaphiri le Motlotlegi Seakgosing gore a… teng ra ba ra kgona go o diragatsa fa re itshwaragantse le makgotla a e seng a puso. MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members please. The three Assistant Ministers, whoever is chairing that Fa ke lebeletse one molao tsamaiso o ke o ema nokeng meeting should close it and the secretary should stop thata jaaka ke setse ke supile. Fa re lebile dikarolo tse writing minutes. di farologanyeng tsa batsaya karolo mo setshabeng sa rona, ke batla go gakolola Matona gore, e re fa ba MR MAKGALEMELE: A mme seo ke selo se e leng lebeletse population groups, ba sekaseke batho ba ba gore se tla a kgonagala, bogolo thata ka jaana re le mo tlogetseng tiro ka bogodi, bangwe ba tlogela ka bonana, ngwageng wa 2010. mme ba santse ba na le skills tse di faphegileng gore ba Kgang e nngwe e ke neng ka e lebelela ke ya phokotso ka re thusa mo ditlhabololong ka go farologana bogolo lehuma e e mo Page 29 fa e leng gore teng re bua gore thata kwa metseng ya selegae. E re fa re ntse re akanya re ya go fokotsa lehuma ka masome a le matlhano mo mangwe mananeo a re ka a betlang, le bone re bo re lekgolong go tswa kwa go masome a mabedi le boraro ntse re ba akantse gore seabe sa bone se se oketsegileng le metso e le mene mo lekgolong go tsena kwa go e ka nna se se kae. Ka gore bontsi jwa bone ba setse lesome le motso mo lekgolong ka ngwaga wa 2020. ba le kwa dikgaolong ba tlogetse ditiro. Ke dumela Ke tsaya gore ke seemo se se amogelesegang e bile ke gore ba santse ba ka dira seabe se segolwane ba bo ba ne ke ka leboga fa Motlotlegi Masisi a ne a ntheeditse re thusa, ka gore ba na le skills tse di farologanyeng. fa ke bua ntlha e ya phokotso lehuma. Ke amogela gore E seng fela gore gongwe e bo e le fa ba tlogela tiro ba re bua gore re ya go fokotsa lehuma. Nna ke santse ke bo ba fitlhela seemo se seconducive kana se sa ba letle dumela gore re tshwanetse gore re ikiteye ka thupana gore ba tseye karolo mo ditlhabololong. gore maikaelelo magolo e nne gore re fedise lehuma, re le nyeletse.

92 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION POLICY OF 2010 - Motion

Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ke santse ke bo re dirile tshekatsheko ya ditogamaano tseo go direla dumela gore go nyeletsa lehuma ke nngwe ya dilo tse re gore megopolo yotlhe e re batlang gore e tsene mo tshwanetseng gore re di ipeye pele ka gore ke dilo tse di molaong tsamaiso, kana policies tsone tse re batlang ka kgonagalang fa ke lebeletse mananeo a mantsintsi a to review tseo, e bo e le gore review ya teng kana re nang le one mo lefatsheng la rona la Botswana. A a megopolo e mesha e go a tsepama gore e felela e tsena itebagantseng le mefuta e e farologaneng ya batho, batho mo ditogamaanong tse re di simolotseng. ba seemo se se kwa tlase, se se fa gare jaaka boMotlotlegi Mopalamente Rre Rammidi jalo jalo le ba bangwe. Se ke Fa re dira the 1996 Youth Policy go ne go tsepame lekang go se supa ke gore re na le mananeo a le mantsi a sentle gore e tla a nna e re pele ga ditogamaano dingwe a itebagantseng le phokotso lehuma. E re ntswa gone re le dingwe fa di simolola re bo re dirile tshekatsheko ya na le the National Strategy ya Poverty Reduction ya 1993 National Youth Policy le tsa National Youth Development fa ke sa fose mme gone go na le mananeo a le mantsi a e Plan, mme ga re a ka ra dira jalo e sale go simolola ka leng gore a itebagantse le phokotso lehuma. 1996. Ke tsaya gore mogopolo o o neng o tsentswe mo the 1996 Youth Policy re tshwanetse gore gongwe Se ke eletsang gore e nne molaetsa o motona mo go re o tseye e nne policy guiding instrument ya gore the diragatseng molao o ke gore, re romele molaetsa kwa major policies tsa lefatshe la rona tse di itebagantseng le setshabeng gore phokotso lehuma kana phediso lehuma ditlhabololo ka bophara jwa tsone tse di amang setshaba ke nngwe ya dilo tse di kgonagalang. E bile re bo re ka bontsi e nne e re pele ga ditogammaano dingwe le ipeele dikaelo, ke gore targets, tse e leng gore ka tsone dingwe tsa setshaba di simologa re bo re ka bo re ne re nako le nako re a go rurifatsa gore batho graduate. lebeletse policies tseo. Re di lebeletse gore megopolo Ba tswe mo seemong sa lehuma mme ba felele ba le yotlhe ya review e mesha e bo e nna bontlha bongwe jwa mo seemong se se botoka. Ke dumela gore seo se ka ditogamaano tse re tla a bong re di simolola. kgonagala. E bile e tshwanetse gore e nne maikaelelo a matona a one molao tsamaiso o e leng gore re o beilwe Ya bofelo ke re ke lebeletse institutional framework pele. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, phokotso e Tona a e supileng in the policy e a e re beileng pele lehuma nna ke tsaya gore re e tshwere sentle. Ke a tle e. Ke dumalana le ene, mme ke re o sekaseke, ka gore ke mo reetse monkanaake fa a bua le rona, Honourable go na le komiti ke e kwa dikgaolong, mme ke dumela Mokgweetsi Masisi, fa a bua mo dikgotleng ka kgang e. gore le kwa ditoropong, jaanong ka ga ke Mopalamente Ke dumela gore o e tshwere sentle. Nna ke eletsa gore wa toropo ga ke itse thata ka tsa toropo mma ke bue a molaetsa e nne gore re romele molaetsa to the nation fela ka tsa kwa dikgaolong. BoMotlotlegi nkgonne Rre gore poverty eradication is possible, especially that Rakhudu ke ene a ka itseng gore mo ditoropong ba dira re na le mananeo a mantsi a a itebagantseng le kgang jang. Go na le komiti e bidiwa gotwe Village Extension e. Mme ke re ke kope jalo. Ke dumela gore tota fela Team, e e leng gore e tsenya bodirelapuso jo bo mo kgang ya teng re e tshwere sentle. Merero e re ntseng motseng. Ke tseela gore badirelapuso ba o tla a fitlhela e re e dira e Motlotlegi Rre Masisi a e tshwereng lefatshe le gore ba nyoretswe go tsaya karolo e e oketsegileng mo lotlhe ka bophara, ke ne ka nna le lesego la go nna teng ditlhabololong tsa motse. Maloba kwa Shoshong kwa kwa Mahalapye Community Hall fa a ne a biditse ba ke ne ka ba roma go dira a research ya mabaka a re ka Mahalapye Sub-District. Ke fitlhetse e le gore ka gore okang dibanka ka one kwa kgaolong ya rona. Ba ntiretse e bile e le karolo ya ditlhabololo e ke e rutetsweng ka report e e nonneng e e leng gore mo bogautshwaneng sebele sa me o mo tseleng ka fa a e tshwereng ka teng. ke tla a bo ke simolola ke kokota mo dibankeng ka go Mme ke re ke mo rotloetse fela gore a gatele pele. farologana. Kgang ya me ke gore Village Extension Team e ke dumela gore re sekaseke gore e nne part of Mokaulengwe Motlotlegi Rre Motowane fa a akgela the institutional framework. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa kgantele, tsala e tona ya me ya Mokwena, o supile Palamente, ka mafoko ao ke lebogile. gore o amogela gore review e bo e dirilwe le fa gone e dirilwe go le thari. Ke re ke mo tlatse ke re ke dumalana MR SPEAKER: Ke ne ke re kana ga go na ope yo o le ene gore National Policy e e ne e sale e dirilwe ka gananang le pampiri e, mme ka moso our Order Paper 1997 mme re tsere dingwaga di le di ntsi thata pele ga will be overfull, jaanong for us to carry this head re boa re e sekaseka re bo re e baakanya jaaka fa re e forward le ya go re paledisa tiro. Ke a le rapela ke baakanya gompieno. E bile ke dumela gore re tla a e gogoba ka mangole bagaetsho, buang ka bokhutshwane amogela gore re tle re e diragatse. gore re kgone go fetsa.

Mma ke ntshe mogopolo, gore policies tsa rona tse e MR KHWAE (KGALAGADI NORTH): Ke a leng gore di na le bokete, weighty policies, re nne re leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mma rurifatsa gore pele development plans di simolola, re ka bokhutshwane le nna ke re ke dumele the Revised National Population Policy of 2010.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 93 Wednesday 31st March, 2010 REVISED NATIONAL POPULATION POLICY OF 2010 - Motion

Se ke ka eletsang gore rraetsho se dirwe ke thuto. A e e leng gore go tlhokafala thata gore lefatshe lengwe thuto e tswelele lefatshe lotlhe bogolo jang ke lebelela le lengwe e nne e re ka dingwaga tse di rileng le nna le kwa dikgaolong ka gore tsamaiso e e fetileng go ne go e shafatsa. Ke ka tshwenyega fela fa e le gore e ka re na le mafoko a a neng a dirisiwa a e leng gore batho jaaka fa Bakaulengwe ba ntse ba bua mafoko gongwe bangwe ba ne ba a tshaba mo tsamaisong ya dipalo dilo dingwe tsa nna tsa tlhotsa go ntse go tsweletse. tsa batho, jaaka “go tsoga mang.” Jaanong ke eletsa Mme fela se se tona ke gore re na le tsamaiso ke e e re fa lona le le Ministry le ka dira dithuto kwa bathong, tshwanetseng gore re e eme nokeng e re lebelelang kwa bogolo jang at the settlements. Kana at the settlements go Tona gore jaaka re mo tlatsa rotlhe a e tsweledise. gantsintsi karabo ke ‘ee’ fela, a o tla ka potso e e tlhokanang le karabo ya ‘nnyaa’ kgotsa ‘ee’ bone ba go Fela pele ga ke ema ke re kgang e nna ke ka e ganang neela ‘ee’ fela. Jaanong go botlhokwa gore dithuto tse thata ke e ya go kgobokana. Go kgobokana moo ga go a di tsenelele di bo di ye go fitlhaat the settlements gore siama. Kana fa re riana re beilwe ka dikgaolo tsa rona, maduo a re tla a bonang mo palong ya batho mo isagong ka merafe ya rona. Re tsamaisiwa ke selo se gotweng e nne one. Bogolo jang ka re amogela policy e ka nako ke Tribal Territories Act. Jaanong e tshwanetse gore e e e leng gore ngwaga o o tlang re tla a bo re dira palo lesiwe fela e ntse jalo. Ope a seka a bo a e kgoma ka gore ya batho. Jaaka re lemogile gore mo palong e e fetileng le tla a bo le re tsosetsa medumo e e sa tlhokafaleng. ya batho re ne ra nna, jaaka re itse, go kgaoganngwa A e nne fela e ntse jalo re tswelele fela ka gore e bile re remeletse on population. Ke re a ntlha e rraetsho yone ga go na motheo o o ka dirang gore e fetolwe ka go lebiwe le geographical factors tse di serious tse di gore e tlile pele ga motheo wa Botswana, re nne fela ka dirang gore re seka ra felela re akola tse ba bangwe ba territories tsa rona jalo. Re setse re tsamaile dingwaga di akolang mo dikgaolong tse ba nang le population e di le di ntsi re tlhabologa jaaka re ntse re tlhabologa, e rileng ntswa bone ba kgobokane golo go le gongwe. jaanong ga e ka ke ya re morago ga dingwaga tse di Kana gompieno jaana Motlotlegi Rre Kwelagobe fa kana re bo re senya. a batla go buisa phuthego kwa Molepolole o bitsa Kgang ya bofelo e e ntshwentseng ke e e neng e buiwa meeting o le one fela. Nna ke gore ke tshwanetse go ke Motlotlegi Batshu fa a supa gore e ka re dipalo tsamaya 1,000 kilometres gore ke fetse diphuthego tsa dingwe di ne di supa gore o kare fa bana ba simolola me. Jaanong ke sengwe se re tshwanetseng go se ela dikole ka 2009 le 2010 go ne go lebega e kete ba tlhoko. basimanyana ba feta ba basetsanyana ka dipalo.

Sengwe se ke neng ka ela tlhoko se ne se dirisiwa, e ne e Jaanong re re, e tshwanetse e tlhotlhomisiwe thata le dikoloi tse di dirisang plate numbers tsa South Africa. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ka gore, ga Jaanong kamogelo ya tsone mo bathong e ne e sa wele re itse gore jaaka Motlotlegi Batshu a ne a bua, a e ka sentle. Ba tshoga ba ipotsa gore a ba di amogele. A ke ne e supa gore dipalo di a supagala gore basimanyana batho ba tswa South Africa kgotsa jang. Rona re a di ba nna bantsi go feta basetsanyana. Mme golo mo go tshaba kwa dikgaolong. Fa re bona fela plate number ya raya eng? Ka gore e bile ke yo a re e rile a bua le Tona South Africa ra re ijaaijaa! ba a bo ba tlodile molelwane. ka kwa ntle, a mo raya a re, “kana go raya gore mo Jaanong a ko le dirise dikoloi tsa rona, fa e le gore le dingwageng tse di tlang, go tla a bo go dirwa import”. batla go hirisa le hirise dikoloi tsa Botswana. Ke selo se se tshwanetseng gore go tswelelwe go ntse Seemo se sa lehuma rraetsho re se ele tlhoko. Motlotlegi go thotlhomisiwa go bonwe gore, a tota mme ke selo Rre Masisi a e seka ya nna puo ya molomo fela e e se go ka tsewang gore se supa gore dipalo di ka bo di itumedisang. Le rona re nne le Policy e ya Poverty ntse jalo. Eradication, re e bone. Re seka ra e utlwalela mo ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND dikgotleng fela e buiwa ke maVillage Development SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Ke Committee (VDC) le wena koo mme rona re sa kgone a leboga Mr Speake. Ke ne ke re ke botse Motlotlegi go e itse. Ka gore re eletsa gore, bogolo jang rona ba re Gaotlhaetse Utlwang Sankoloba Ndola wa ga tswang kwa dikgaolong tse di gateletsweng ke lehuma, Matlhabaphiri. Ke mmotse gore, a motho e a bo e ka re nne le seabe go bona re tokafatsa matshelo a batho re go buiwa ka dilo tsa demography, e bo e le gore ba kgaolo ya rona. Ke a leboga. jaanong go tsewa gore dipalo tsa ngwaga tse pedi, ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH (MR le gone tse e leng gore discrepancy tsa teng they are MATLHABAPHIRI): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa not even 3000, a ke gone mo go ka tweng a trend has Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Le nna jaaka Bakaulengwe emerged? Ke mmotse gore a o dumalana gore re ka ba bangwe mma ke eme ke lebogele Tona gore a bo a re baya mo trend ya two years, dipalo di farologana fela beile ntlha e tonatona e pele ya kakanyetso ya tsamaiso ka less than 3000. Bearing in mind gore o a itse gore population census is measured every 10 years?

94 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 1st April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR MATLHABAPHIRI: Ke a leboga. Fa e le gore i) the Scheme of Service for Customary Court Tona o boa a bua jalo Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo Clerks; tsa Palamente, e le gore e kete o tla a bo a boela mafoko a a buileng le Mopalamente kwa morago, le rona re ii) when he intends to implement the Scheme; and ne re gakgamalela gore, a dingwaga tse pedi ke tsone iii) whether this will be retrospective; if not, why. tse di ne di ka supa gore go ka ba ga tla seemo sa gore jaanong, re bo re ala ala diatlana re tsamaya. Motlotlegi ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, nna ke ne ke re GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): Mr Speaker, the kgang e re e buile. Batlotlegi ba e buile ba e tladitse. Scheme of Service for the Customary Court Clerks is still Mme ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, ke ne ke kopa gore a e under consideration by the Directorate of Public Service re ka tsetla ya bomasome a mane le botlhano, tsetlana Management (DPSM). My Ministry will implement the ya ntlha, ke kope gore go sutisiwe gore Ntlo e, e tle e Scheme of Service accordingly following approval. atlhole gore a re a tswelela kgotsa nnyaa. Ke a sutisa. The Scheme of Service will take effect from the date of Question put and agreed to. approval as is the practice. Thank you.

MR MABILETSA: Procedure. PRIVATE SECRETARY TO LEADER OF OPPOSITION MR SPEAKER: What procedure? I am still conferring with my papers. MR P. KHWAE (KGALAGADI NORTH): asked the Minister for Presidential Affairs and Public MR MABILETSA: On a point of procedure Mr Administration whether the Leader of the Opposition, Speaker. I am trying to assist you Mr Speaker, as your who is at the same level with Assistant Ministers, has a assistant to say, the question before the House is that Private Secretary; if not:- Population Policy be now agreed to, that is really what you must say. I thank you. i) what are the reasons; and

Question put and agreed to. ii) would she consider employing a Private Secretary for the Leader of the Opposition. MOTION MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS AND ADJOURNMENT PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MS MOTSUMI): MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND Mr Speaker, when the posts of Private Secretaries for WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Mr Ministers and Assistant Ministers were created, it was Speaker, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn. in consideration of the latter’s work load.

Question put and agreed to. Any position equivalent to that of Minister or Assistant Minister was not catered for hence the Speaker whose The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 6:30 p.m. position is equivalent to that of a Minister, the Deputy until Thursday 1st April, 2010 at 9.00 a.m. Speaker and the Leader of the Opposition do not have Private Secretaries. I am not considering provisions of st Thursday 1 April, 2010 such positions. I thank you Mr Speaker.

THE ASSEMBLY met at 9.00 a.m. MR MAKGALEMELE: I just want to appreciate (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) from the Minister why is she not considering that?

P R A Y E R S MS MOTSUMI: I am not considering because the workload of the Ministers is not the same as as that of * * * * the Leader of the Opposition.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER MR D. SALESHANDO: Has there been any effort to evaluate the workload of Speaker, Deputy Speaker and INFORMATION ON SCHEME OF SERVICE Leader of the Opposition? FOR CUSTOMARY COURT CLERKS MS MOTSUMI: That was taken into consideration MR G. R. M. NSHIMWE (CHOBE): asked when that decision was taken and this is why I am saying, the Minister of Local Government to give detailed because of that workload that has been assessed the reason information on:- of not having Private Secretaries was based on that.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 95 Thursday 1st April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR MAKGALEMELE: I just want to appreciate BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES PRESENTED TO from the Minister when that assessment was done? THE YOUTH

MS MOTSUMI: That was done at a time when a MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked consideration for having the positions of Private the Minister of Education and Skills Development to Secretaries was done. state:-

BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES PRESENTED TO i) specific business opportunities deliberately presented THE YOUTH to the youth in her Ministry from the Development and Recurrent Budget allocations coordinated by the MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked Ministry’s Principal Youth Officer; the Minister of Lands and Housing to state:- ii) the national value of such businesses during the i) specific business opportunities deliberately 2009/2010 Financial Year; presented to the youth in his Ministry from the Development and Recurrent budget allocations iii) projected national value of such during the coordinated by the Ministry’s Principal Youth 2010/2011 Financial Year; Officer; iv) the value at (ii) and (iii) above that specifically ii) the national value of such businesses during the benefited or is projected to benefit youth in the 2009/2010 Financial Year; Shoshong Constituency; and

iii) projected national value of such during the v) efforts made to sensitise youth on these 2010/2011 Financial Year; opportunities.

iv) the value at (ii) and (iii) above that specifically ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND benefited or is projected to benefit youth in the SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Ke Shoshong Constituency; and a go leboga Mr Speaker. Potso e ga e na punctuations. O fitlhela fa gongwe o sa utlwe gore ya reng, mme re e v) efforts made to sensitise youth on these arabile jaana; ga e a kwalega. opportunities. Mr Speaker, there are no specific business opportunities MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR deliberately presented to the youth in my Ministry. MOLEFHI): Mr Speaker, the mandate of my However, whenever we procure works and services Ministry is to facilitate development through creating guided by the PPAD Act some youth owned companies an enabling environment for others to perform. This win tenders on merit. These works and services are is done through, amongst other things, availing land not necessarily coordinated by the Ministry Youth for investment and supporting framework for public Principal Officer. sector development. Mr Speaker, in accordance with the Ministry mandate to Therefore, my Ministry does not have a budget, provide education and life skills training to the in-school Recurrent or Development specifically earmarked for youth at primary, secondary and tertiary level, life skills youth business opportunities. My Ministry has not training encompasses business skills through Know been favoured with a directory of “youth” businesses About Business and Junior Achievement Botswana (JAB) in the goods and services sector. Our procurement programmes. Furthermore, a sizable number of students is based on tendering and outsourcing of goods and are learning Business Studies and Commerce as well as services and drop in sales visitations. If we are aware entrepreneurial skills. These form a base for young people of the nature of youth enterprises and the goods and not only to look for employment upon completion of services provided, we certainly will invite them to bid their schooling, but also to venture into self-employment for works to be undertaken by my Ministry. activities and create employment for others.

Mr Speaker, a special programme for facilitation of My Ministry, instead of giving business opportunities to allocation of land to young farmers is in place and youth, it utilizes development funds for life skills training. being implemented. To date, 11 young farmers in the Shoshong Constituency have been allocated land through Mr Speaker, the National Value created by these initiatives this dispensation. This arrangement has been widely is immeasurable. Since the national value is immeasurable, publicized through radio, newspaper publications and there is, therefore no projected national value during television interviews. I thank you Sir. 2010/2011 Financial Year. I thank you Mr Speaker.

96 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 1st April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR MAKGALEMELE: That is a follow up as to other words fa a youth a tla a dirile tender e e completely whether the Minister is aware that when the Minister out of speck, ga ke ye go mo e neela for the simple reason of Youth, Sport and Culture responded to Question that o youth, ke e neela e e leng within speck. No. 204 on Friday 8th December, 2009 by Honourable Modubule. He did assure this Honourable House that MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of order. I am not government departments and Ministries continue sure which particular section of the Standing Orders. to positively make deliberate efforts for young to There is somewhere where we speak of Members not positively benefit from government schemes and being supposed to impute improper motives. I take he cited a number of cases where youth have been Honourable Rakhudu’s words to be improper motives deliberately given some business by those Ministries. and I do not take kindly to that.

MR SPEAKER: What is the question? You just MR SPEAKER: It is Standing Order 46(5). submitted a narration. The right procedure Honourable MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of order. That Member is that you have got to ask the Minister a particular Standing Order that you quoted, I still question. strongly feel that the Honourable Minister is out of MR MAKGALEMELE: I have definitely asked Mr order by basically saying that my question is badly Speaker. I was asking the Minister whether he is aware written. I do not think it is up to Honourable Rakhudu that the Minister did assure this House that Ministries to make judgements. are making deliberate efforts to give young people MR SPEAKER: In all fairness to the Minister, it is businesses in their respective Ministries. That is the incumbent upon the Honourable Minister to respond question that I asked. to questions, word for word, comma for comma, with MR RAKHUDU: Mr Speaker, I am aware of the clear understanding what the question wants and he Minister’s pronouncements. I thank you Mr Speaker. has rigorously repeated that he has not been clear about what is expected of him. Please, I pray for co- MR MAKGALEMELE: If he is aware, which operation, bagaetsho. businesses have been awarded to young people and what is the value of those businesses. MR GABORONE: Ke botsa gore a mme fa dipotso di goroga kwa di gorogang teng, o fitlhela e le gore ga MR RAKHUDU: Mr Speaker, ke ntse ke araba potso di a itlhalosa. A ga go buisanngwe pele ga go tliwa mo ya ga Rre Makgalemele. Certainly he is not happy Palamenteng go bo go supiwa gore ga e a kwalwa sentle? with the response, but in part it is because his question is ambiguous and his question is very badly written. MR SPEAKER: Gone ke ka arabela bongwanake mo Even as I was answering it, I was not even sure what Palamenten. Fa potso e goroga, ba a go bitsa gore, “ga it is that he wants. Ke mo arabile Mr Speaker. Ke mo re utlwe potso ya gago Rraetsho.” Mopalamente gantsi reile ka re, in some tenders tse re di abang, tse dingwe o a tle a re “nnyaa, you are over doing something to my re di abetse banana on merit. Ke mo reile jalo. Go mo question, you are making it lose its originality.” I think raya jalo, ga go reye gore ga re na go leka go seegela your point has been made Honourable Makgalemele kwa thoko mo bokamosong. and I appeal for cooperation and calmness. Honourable Rakhudu is such a seasoned politician that he cannot… Mme fela Mr Speaker finally, ke kopa gore go nne go bodiwa sentle. Rona re ne re akanya gore a re those HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… coordinated by the Ministry’s Principal Youth Officer MR SPEAKER: Of course he is. Honourable because it is badly written. Nshimwe, he is a Minister and stop pointing menwana MR D. SALESHANDO: Further supplementary. kwa go Tona. Putting aside how the question maybe drafted, I think NUMBER OF DIRECTORS AT DEPARTMENT the question that the Minister should address is, given OF PRIMARY EDUCATION SINCE ITS the assurance that all Ministries are taking proactive ESTABLISHMENT action to favour young entrepreneurs, why hasn’t his Ministry started doing the same and only awarded those MR P. KHWAE (KGALAGADI NORTH): asked the who made it through merit but not through preferential Minister of Education and Skills Development to state: treatment? i) the number of Directors that the Department MR RAKHUDU: It is because at the time when we of Primary Education has had since its awarded tenders, we were awarding them meritoriously. In establishment; and

Hansard No 163 Part 4 97 Thursday 1st April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ii) how many from this number were former primary and Kang-Hukuntsi road, and construction of Sir school teachers, secondary school teachers and Seretse Khama Airport. from other professions. The value of reconstruction of Francistown- ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND Ramokgwebana road is P386, 393,299.29 and the SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Mr value of reconstruction of Kang-Hukuntsi road is P535, Speaker, the Department of Pre and Primary Education 980,457.98. The value of Sir Seretse Khama Airport is has had three (3) Directors ever since its establishment. P433, 334,205.00. Sinohydro Botswana (Pty) Ltd is From this number, one (1) was a former Primary School 100 per cent Chinese owned company. teacher, and two (2) were former Secondary School teachers. I thank you. Mr Speaker, provision has been made by government to ensure citizen participation in these projects. In STATUS OF CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS Francistown-Ramokgwebana road, on main road, no UNDER SINOHYDRO CIVIL AND works were reserved for Citizen Contractors. Only ENGINEERING COMPANY access roads were reserved for citizen contractors. At the moment, Sinohydro Botswana (Pty) Ltd has MR I. S. MABILETSA (KGATLENG EAST): asked not sub-contracted any citizen company as a way the Minister of Transport and Communications how of citizen economic empowerment in Francistown- many construction projects is Sinohydro Civil and Ramokgwebana road project. Engineering Company doing on behalf of Botswana Government, stating the following: In Kang-Hukuntsi road project, certain works were reserved for execution by citizen contractors. These i) type and nature of projects; works are road marking, maintenance of existing road ii) value for each project; and the detour as well as fencing. The costs of these are as follows; iii) whether there is any citizen shareholding in the Road marking P2, 959,457.21 company; and Maintenance of existing road and detour iv) whether this company has sub-contracted any P72, 879,716.43 citizen owned company as a way of citizen economic empowerment. Fencing P10, 114,819.48

MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND For the construction of the Sir Seretse Khama Airport COMMUNICATIONS (MR RAMSDEN): Mr terminal building, Galaxy, a 100 per cent citizen owned Speaker, for my Ministry, Sinohydro Botswana (Pty) company was awarded P180,000.00 for electrical works Ltd is doing two road construction projects namely whilst Leco, a 60 per cent citizen owned company was reconstruction of Francistown-Ramokgwebana road awarded P4,777,921.36 for structural steel works. and Kang-Hukuntsi road, and construction of Sir Thank you Mr Speaker. Seretse Khama Airport. PROGRESS MADE IN THE CONSTRUCTION The value of reconstruction of Francistown- OF THE BOTSWANA INTERNATIONAL Ramokgwebana road is P386, 393,299… UNIVERSITY OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY MR MABILETSA: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. First of all, the Minister is not audible because he does MR M. M. GOYA (PALAPYE): asked the Minister not say his words properly and he is too fast. Can he of Education and Skills Development: take a slow pace so that I can pick up what is in his i) to update this Honourable House on the progress answer? Thank you. made in the construction of the Botswana MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, I hope you have International University of Science and Technology understood what your colleague is complaining about. (BIUST) in Palapye, i.e, planned progress versus actual progress to date; and MR RAMSDEN: Do I now have to go back to start the ii) whether the project will be delivered in accordance question and take it slowly? I will do that for him. Mr with set timelines and no cost overruns; if not, Speaker, for my Ministry, Sinohydro Botswana (Pty) what are the reasons for the delays, how much Ltd is doing two road construction projects, namely will be spent due to cost overruns and what action reconstruction of Francistown-Ramokgwebana road plan if any, is being taken to recover lost time.

98 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 1st April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND Currently, three boreholes are temporarily leased to SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Mr Consoc Botswana (Pty) Ltd, the contractor constructing Speaker, as you may be aware, the project commenced the bus rank for Gumare. The remaining 4 boreholes in March 2009 and was scheduled for completion by (BH 3203, BH 5808, and BH 5809) are available for September 2010. Currently, the project is 33 per cent farmers to apply to the Department of Water Affairs for complete against the scheduled 68 per cent. permission to utilise them.

The project will not be delivered in accordance with Tubu village was supplied from borehole No. 9250 set timelines as there were delays due to: which is available and farmers may apply for it as Tubu and Gumare are now supplied from Sepopa • Proposed variations to the project, which took long Water Treatment Works. to be resolved resulting in the contractor not being able to proceed on time with some components of Toteng village is supplied from boreholes BH 7714, the project. BH 8342, BH 8305, BH 8304 and BH 8343. In the vicinity of the village, there are three (3) boreholes, • Contractor’s failure to avail materials and human namely: BH 5567, BH 5560 and BH 5564. These three resources on site at the beginning of the project. boreholes have already been given to farmers. • Shortage of skilled labour in particular Bricklayers. The Policy is that boreholes that are not required • Delayed payment to contractor. for future village water supply be released for use to individual farmers and/or syndicates. I thank you Mr Action plan or interventions to recover the lost Speaker time are: MR MABILETSA: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. • The contractor has been requested to adequately Mr Speaker, the point of order I am seeking from you resource the project by searching for bricklayers, is whether if you ask a Minister to answer on behalf of carpenters, steel fixers, and electricians. Government, like my Question No. 9 was asking the Construction Industry Trust Fund (CITF) are Minister to indicate to this Parliament what projects is currently training some required labour on site. he doing on behalf of Botswana Government, and he only answers on behalf of his Ministry indicating those • The Consultants have been urged to forward design projects. Is that in order Mr Speaker to do that because drawings to the Contractor timely. I was asking for the entire government and not for his • Overtime, night and weekend works were suggested Ministry? for introduction. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! In all fairness, every Mr Speaker, cost overruns are anticipated but it is too Minister is assigned to his/her own Ministry. If he/she early to know how much that might be. answers directly about his/her Ministry, I do not see any evilness in that. Thank you. TABLING OF PAPER BOREHOLES LYING IDLE IN NGAMI CONSTITUENCY The following paper was tabled:

MR T. G. HABANO (NGAMI): asked the Minister STATUTORY INSTRUMENT No. 24 of 2010: of Minerals, Energy and Water Resources if he is COMPANIES (FORMS) (AMENDMENT) aware that boreholes that used to supply water to the REGULATIONS, 2010. villages of Gumare, Tubu and Toteng are lying idle as (Minister of Trade and Industry) the villages are now being supplied from Sepopa Water Plant and Somelo Water Works respectively; if so, will MOTION he consider making the boreholes available to pastoral and horticultural farmers staying near those boreholes. DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS

MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Mr DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR TIBONE): Speaker, Gumare village was up till 2004 supplied Thank you Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I beg to move from seven boreholes (7) namely BH 3203, BH 5808, without notice in terms of Standing Order 21 (2), a BH 5809, BH 5833, BH 8219, BH 8271 and BH 8517. rearrangement to the order of business as it stands on

Hansard No 163 Part 4 99 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion today’s Order Paper. In particular, I am proposing that it into cognisance. I do not want any more debate from the approval of the Financial Paper No. 3 of 2008/2009 you about this matter. and Financial Paper No. 2 of 2009/2010 be given precedence or priority over the Second Reading of the However, I have already moved the motion and I expect Supplementary Appropriation (2008/2009) Bill, 2010 the floor now to be open for the Minister to present. (No. 4 of 2010). The reasons for the rearrangement are ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND to enable compliance with Standing Order 83, which DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR TIBONE): provides that the debate on the Second Reading of the Mr Speaker, I have the honour to Present Financial Supplementary Appropriation Bill should commence Paper No. 2 of 2009/2010 and Financial Paper No. 3 after the approval of the Financial Paper. I so move of 2008/2009, containing Supplementary Estimates Mr Speaker. of expenditure from the Consolidated Funds. I take it Question put and agreed to. that Honourable Members have gone through the two financial papers. FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of Financial Paper No. 2 of 2009/2010 2009/2010 Mr Speaker Section 119 (3) (a) of the Constitution Motion provides that, “if in any Financial Year it is found that the amount appropriated by the Appropriation MR SPEAKER: Honourable Nshimwe, when the Act for the purposes included in any organisation of Speaker is standing, you are to be bolted where you expenditure is insufficient or that a need has arisen are. for expenditure for a purpose for which no amount has been appropriated by the Appropriation Act, a Order! Order! Honourable Members, bagaetsho go supplementary Estimate showing the sums required rileng? The Members of Parliament on my right are shall be laid before the National Assembly” the ones who are supposed to give me support from the onset. Ke ntse ke le rogelwa fa gotwe, “ke colleagues tsa I therefore, present Financial Paper No.2 of 2009/2010 gago support them”. Ke bo ke itlhokomolosa matlhapa containing Consolidated Funds Supplementary a teng. Can we have order Honourable Members? Estimates along with statement showing the source of funds from which the additional provision is proposed HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr Speaker. to be financed. Explanatory notes in support of the MR SPEAKER: Ga ke ise ke ko ke bone Speaker a supplementary requests recommended for approval are nnisiwa fa fatshe. on page 9-11 of the Financial Paper. Four Ministries namely; Ministry of State President, Ministry of Local HONOURABLE MEMBER: Fa a sa itse, o a Government, Ministry of Health and Administration nnisiwa. of Justice submitted Supplementary Budget Estimates amounting to P110 665 030. However, on further MR SPEAKER: Ga o itse wena because you do not consultation, Ministry of Health withdrew their stay in Parliament. requests for supplementary funding.

MR KWELAGOBE: On a point of order. Mr Speaker, Financial Paper No. 3 of 2008/2009 my point of order is that the Speaker was out of order, fa e le gore o rogilwe mo Palamenteng e, mme ga seka Mr Speaker, Section 119 (3) (b) of the Constitution ga tsewa kgato epe. Mr Speaker o sa tswa go re bolelela provides that, “if in any financial year it is found that gore o ntse a rogwa fa, mme ga a re bolelele gore ba ba any moneys has been expended on any organization mo rogileng kgato e a e tsereng ke efe. of expenditure in excess of the amount appropriated for purposes included in that organisation by the MR SPEAKER: You are out of order Motlotlegi Appropriation Act or for a purpose for which no amount Kwelagobe. Please sit down. has been appropriated by the Appropriation Act, a MR KWELAGOBE: No, you are out of order, go Supplementary Estimate showing the sums required or rogilwe mang? spent shall be laid before the National Assembly and the organizations of expenditure shall be included in MR SPEAKER: You are out of order Honourable a supplementary Appropriation Bill or in a motion, or Kwelagobe because whoever said that did not have his motions approving such expenditure which shall be microphone on. That is the reason why I did not take introduced or moved in the Assembly.”

100 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion Mr Speaker, in this regard, I present Financial Paper the Financial Paper No. 3 of 2008/2009, and Financial No. 3 of 2008/2009 containing supplementary Paper No. 2 of 2009/2010 excluding the request by requirements of P180 171 390 in respect of net over- Ministry of Health, be approved.’’ I thank you Mr expenditure that occurred under Ministry of State Speaker. President, Ministry of Agriculture, Ministry of Health and Administration of Justice during Financial Year SUMMARY OF SYSTEMS CONTROL 2008/2009. The justifications for the supplementary GABS has controls that do not allow funds to be request are provided in the notes on pages five to eight warranted or spent against votes with no or inadequate of the Financial Paper. funds. The controls can be overridden when Mr Speaker, over expenditure is a breach of the law circumstances oblige. and the Finance Audit Act makes for action to be taken 1. TYPES OF CONTROLS IN THE SYSTEM against those who are deemed to have caused the over expenditure to occur. a) Access Controls

To this end, my Ministry has written to all Accounting • Security Rules: These rules limit (by Officers of the Ministries/Departments who incurred responsibility) the values of the Chart of Accounts over expenditure to account for it and to show cause table which the user will access. Each user in the why they cannot be surcharged. system is assigned specific responsibilities to perform in the system. Mr Speaker, as indicated in paragraph 116 and 117 of the 2010 Budget Speech, my Ministry has started to • Cross Validation Rules: These rules allow valid put in place measures to mitigate against incidents of values across different segments in the Chart of expenditure as follows; Accounts. They guide against misallocation of accounts or wrong account code combinations. i) The authority to approve virement of funds from Example; a cost centre that fall within a particular Personal Emoluments as well as to increase department range cannot be used by another provision in the travelling votes has been department. centralised in my Ministry. This will obviate the need to override the control for personal b) Budgetary Control emoluments since salaries had to be paid even These controls are in three levels, in GABS system when provision is not adequate due to contractual only two levels have been set up. Below are obligation to pay an individual’s salary. the three levels of budgetary controls; ii) The two Departments within my Ministry • None: This means there are no control at all (not namely; Office of the Accountant General and set up in the GABS system). the Development and Budget Division will work closely together to deal with weaknesses in our • Advisory: These are soft controls whereby there operating systems which filter into Government is a warning message when budgetary controls Accounting and Budget System (GABS). This have been violated. These controls do not stop includes tightening controls in GABS and the user from continuing with the transaction. The effective monitoring of the budget to ensure that ‘Advisory” controls have been setup for Revenue expenditure is incurred against accounts with Accounts, Personal Emoluments Accounts as inadequate or no provision. well as for the Missions as they are online as other Ministries. The reason behind this is that Mr Speaker, my Ministry took note of the issues raised salaries cannot be stopped because the vote does by the Finance and Estimates Committee and will not have funds since there is no obligation to pay find ways of addressing them in the future. Further, I employees their salaries. have attached a summary of the system controls to my presentations for Honourable Members to appreciate • Absolute: These are complete budgetary controls the types of GABS controls in place within the Office whereby a purchase order cannot be committed, of the Accountant General. an invoice cannot be paid and funds cannot be transferred from a vote/account which does not Mr Speaker, I therefore move “That this Honourable have adequate funds. In the GABS system , the House resolves that the Supplementary Estimates of control are ‘absolute’ for all expenditure account Expenditure for the Consolidated Funds contained in

Hansard No 163 Part 4 101 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion for both Recurrent and Development except 7. FUNDS TRANSFER CONTROL for ‘Personal Emoluments’ and ‘Missions’ as mentioned above. a) Recurrent Budget

6. CONTROL BYPASS There are three times of funds transfer (Dossier) being; Virement, Letter of Authority and Departmental It is worth noting that there are circumstances Warrant (sub-warrant). These Dossier types are set whereby authorised users request from the system up in the system for each department every year to Administrator the facility to override absolute facilitate those funds transfer in the system. Part of budgetary controls. the Dossier setup is to define the approval hierarchy for each department of which for current budget the Those circumstances are detailed below: final approver is always the Finance Officer of the a) Foreign Payment (Year end closure) Ministry who approves in the system on behalf of the Accounting Officer, after the Accounting Officer The process of foreign payment is such that the manually signs the document as approved. payment is done half way and sent to Bank of Botswana (BoB) to make the actual payment using With the recurrent budget transactions, the the applicable exchange rate. It takes long for BoB approval of the funds is adequate in that it ensures to make the payment and since there will be no that funds cannot be transferred from one account funds committed for that particular payment, by with inadequate funds. the time it is processed in the system there might be b) Development Budget inadequate funds, and this result in the overriding of controls since the money will already have been There are also three Dossier types for development paid. budget; Finance Warrant, Withdrawal Warrant, and Letter of Authority. This Dossier types are setup in b) Mission accounts -Year end accounts closure the system for each Ministry and like the recurrent Usually at year ends there are accounts from the budget Dossiers, approval hierarchy is defined for missions relating to other Ministries which have to each Ministry and in this case it is a three level be accounted to in the GABS. As it will be yearend hierarchy which comprises of; the preparer, who will it is most likely that funds will not be available in be the Planning Officer of the Ministry. The second most of the accounts but as the mission transaction level which is the first approver will be the Head of will have already been paid for outside the GABS, Ministry Planning Unit, and the third level, which is they will have to be captured and processed even the final approver, is the Development Budget Office, if there are no funds. In this circumstance the under the Development and Budget Division, in the budgetary control override facility will be used Ministry of Finance and Development Planning. so that those transactions can go through and The Ministry of Finance and Development Planning accounted for. has a Project Management System which monitors c) Revenue offices down time due to network and the physical and financial progress of project. power problems Following approval on NDP 10, the Ministry is unloading the approved project to be able to track Occasionally the system will not be available at their implementation through the system. the revenue office due to unreliable network and power supply interruptions. When the system is MR D. SALESHANDO (GABORONE CENTRAL): not available for a reasonable long time, the office Thank you Mr Speaker. The House is aware that a paper will shift to manual payment process and pay was tabled yesterday from the Finance and Estimate suppliers and individual outside the system. When Committee relating to this particular request. I will the network or power problem is resolved and the just present the highlights. I will take it that both the system is up and running, those transactions will Financial Papers tabled by the Minister as well as the be captured and processed. During the processing report of the Finance and Estimates Committee should of these transactions, some will encounter funds be considered to have been read. check failure and they will be forced to go through I just want to start off with a reminder that this House as they would have already been paid for and have approved yet another request sometimes last year, to be accounted for in the system. December 2009 for supplementary expenditure to

102 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion the tune of P278 million for the recurrent budget and The assumption is that Ministries will make savings P4.4 billion for the development budget. It terms of on other votes or will draw-down on savings secured Financial Paper No.3 of 2008/2009, the total request from vacancies in the Ministries. This also presents a amount to just over a P118 million. The reasons problem, because when a budget is presented a salary advanced by the Ministry of Finance and Development increase is part of the proposals and to give a full picture Planning when presenting to the Committee for this it is only in our view maybe the time for the Ministry over expenditure were varied. I think Members will to consider budgeting for these items. Ministries that also be aware that 2008/2009 is actually now more or do not have high vacancies are worse off as a result of less as just from today, two financial years back, part this. You are facing some measure of punitive action of the reasons relates to the late capturing of vouchers for having complied with the request to make sure that by Ministries. It appears that it does takes up to about all vacancies are filled. six months sometimes for the Ministry to capture some vouchers passed by the end of the financial year and it There is also the case of utilisation of funds by is something that the Ministry will need to address. Ministries for pending contractual obligations, let me put it that way. A typical example will be where The Minister has mentioned the shortfall in salaries a Ministry has placed an order for purchase of certain votes, but I think for purposes of clarity, what has been goods. It therefore means that some amount of money happening is that some Ministries, it appears, do transfer will have to be paid on delivery of those goods. The funds from the salaries and allowances vote to fund Committee has been informed that the system has other activities in the Ministry in the full knowledge been such that those committed funds are not reflected that salaries, as the Minister has said, are a contractual as necessarily committed and therefore are available obligation of the part of Government. Those will be for use of other projects within the Ministry. To use a paid anyway and in the end create a deficit for the simple layman’s language it is like writing a post dated Ministry, necessitating request for supplementaries. cheque and not reflecting it on your system. When the cash is presented, it is as if it is a surprise to the That should not have been the case in the first place and Ministry, when in actual fact there was a contractual I think even with the decision to centralise virements obligation with the supplier and the understanding from the... was that those funds will be paid. Therefore should MR TSOGWANE: On a point of clarification Mr be withheld by the Ministry, to make sure that when Speaker. We hear you clearly Honourable Member, goods are delivered, when suppliers demand payment but you are saying that should not have happened. funds are adequate and do not necessarily mean that My clarification is that is there no procedure to be we are going to end up with a shortfall necessitating a followed, is it not violating any Act by so doing. If supplementary expenditure. there is a prohibitive act therefore they would not do it I must however add that, not all items under Financial unless it is up to the discretion of the officer. Paper No.3 of 2008/2009 actually represent expenditures MR D. SALESHANDO: I am not aware of the on the part of Government. A typical example is that one statutory instrument that prohibits that transfer. of Arable Land Development Programme (ALDEP). There could have possibly been some administrative When the ALDEP was cancelled farmers had already regulations to try and enforce that. I think the Ministry paid funds to Government. So, the refund is what is of Finance and Development Planning would be better being sought at the moment, it is not a new expenditure. placed to respond to that. Some of the expenditures are recoverable, such as for that for the Ministry of Health under the same year, Having said that, the point I am trying to make is funds that are being claimed and continue to be claimed that, it should not have been allowed in the first place. from Botswana USA Partnership (BOTUSA), African The Ministry has taken a decision to now centralise Comprehensive HIV/AIDS Partnership (ACHAP) and the control of the virements from the personal other cooperating partners. emoluments vote. Yes that sounds like a bit technical financial English. The other problem that Parliament must be aware of, across the board budget cuts,that are sometimes The other problem that occurred was that during necessitated by developments posed approval of financial years where the Ministry of Finance and the budget. Our view is that, it appears that some Development Planning proposes an increase to Ministries do not comply with these cuts and in effect salaries or introduction of new allowances, such as or rather proceed as if there are no cuts that have been scarce skills, no provision is made for such increases. directed by the Ministry of Finance and Development

Hansard No 163 Part 4 103 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion Planning. At the end of the financial year you then have Key areas of concern for us as the Committee were supplementaries. You need to make a decision, because that, it takes too long sometimes for the Ministries to if Ministries are able to continue spending as if there has present their requests to the Ministry of Finance and been no budget cuts. We may as well not have the cuts, Development Planning and for them to ultimately if we are going to allow for supplementaries at a later reach Parliament. As a typical example, a number of stage. It is defeating the very purpose that we tried to these requests could have been accommodated during achieve by having the cuts in the first place. So a choice December 2009 request. There is no reason why has to be made on how these cuts will be enforced, and Ministries should hold back when there is a request to make sure that there is compliance by the Ministries. before Parliament for supplementaries. They are Otherwise if the ministry is able to present a case that holding back knowing fully well that they also face there is absolutely no scope for downscaling, then such a similar predicament and are going to have to come a cut is not feasible, it is misdirected. to Parliament at a later stage. Then they approach Parliament way late in the financial year and expect With regard to financial paper No.2 for 2009/2010 the a response, because some of the commitments are total request there is about just over a P110 million. contractual. That in our view is unfair to the Committee At the sitting of the Committee the request by the and Parliament as well. Ministry of Health for P22 million was included in the presentation. The Committee objected to this, the In the times of the current system is appears that infusion of the Ministry of Health, reasons being that as Ministries are able to spend beyond authorised limits at the time that the Committee considered the financial in spite of the controls that are in place. I think that papers, we were less than a week from the end of the one which has been highlighted by the Ministries’ financial year. Total available funds for the Ministry of response has been that they will surcharge or they Health excluding committed funds such as outstanding will ask officers to show cause, why action ought not payment of salaries and outstanding invoices payable to be taken against them for the trespass. I think the from funds allocated in the financial year, we were in difficulty is going to be that, some of the Ministries excess of P22 million of the amount being sought. or departments sometimes feel that their requests are not taken on board quick enough by the Ministry of It therefore did not convince the Committee that there Finance and Development Planning itself. Therefore is need for supplementaries. Had that remained the the offending officers may actually be in the Ministry likelihood was that, we were going to have a surplus of Finance and Development Planning itself. So the turnout by the Ministry of Health in excess of the Minister of Finance and Development Planning will funds being sought as supplementaries. Our view as throw the ball to the other side, show cause why action the Committee is that, the same may possibly apply should not be taken against you. The question really for Office of the State President. I think the difficulty I am posing is, if Ministries revert with sufficient with this Ministry is that, because we have many information to show that you were the cause of the departments within the Ministry, one department, such problem. Are we satisfied as Parliament, is there as the Police, as is the case with this particular request, anything to satisfy Parliament that sufficient steps will may as well make a determination that the total funds also be taken against the very officials who reside at available are insufficient, but other departments within the Ministry of Finance and Development Planning the same Ministry, for example Botswana Defence and are the ones who are supposed to be disciplining Force (BDF) may be sitting on amounts way in excess the other Ministries? of the shortfall that a sister department is likely to face. A compartmental approach to issues of financing and In other words should the indiscipline be within the requesting for additional funds will create an anomaly in Ministry of Finance and Development Planning. Are they the sense that, as we feared with the Ministry of Health suitably located to be able to deal with the indiscipline there is a real likelihood that at the end of a financial that is within as opposed to offending Ministries? Our year, the Ministry may in actual fact have a surplus. In proposals as contained in the report, I will only highlight this particular it may actually have a surplus that may a few, Ministry of Agriculture appears to be having a not be of the same magnitude as the request being put perpetual request for outbreak of diseases. I think we all before the House today. At the end of the day the real know the experience in our country, outbreak of animal intention should be to have supplementary requests disease is more or less the norm than the exception. that reflect the true requirements of the entire Ministry. The view that the Committee adopted was that some It is difficult to establish that and it is something that consideration must be given to having a contingency the Ministry will need to focus on. budget or fund, such that the Ministry of Agriculture

104 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion does not necessarily need to be approaching Ministry mo go feteletseng. E re ntswa go ntse jalo go lebega of Finance and Development Planning more or less o kare bana ba mo diphatseng, nna ke ne ke re ke on an annual basis for supplementaries occasioned by ba kopele fela gore bagaetsho itshwareleng bana, ba outbreak of disease. It is a consideration for the Ministry dirile phoso. Go dira phoso ga bana ba bagaetsho, ga of Agriculture as well as the Ministry of Finance and ba a itirisa. Fa o le modisa wa dikgomo kana o le Development Planning. morui wa dikgomo, fa o bolotsa dikgomo phakela o di bulela mo lesakeng gore di ye go hula, o tshwanetse Having said that, like I said, I will consider the report gore o di sale morago. O ye go bona gore a di a hula to have been read. We have recommended that the motshegare le fa o ka seka wa di pateletsa gore di proposals be approved with the exception of the hule. Mme o a bo o bona gore di a hula, o di ntshitse Ministry of Health. mo lesakeng. Ke tshwanelo ya gago gape gore e re With also more or less the discomfort of knowing that maitseboa o bo o bona gore dikgomo tse di a boa di some of these Ministries may actually not need the ya go goroga di le mmogo kwa lesakeng. full quantum amount that is being requested. In that MR TSOGWANE: On a point of clarification regard, we have requested that the Public Accounts Mr Speaker. Ke a leboga Mr Speaker. Ke kopa go Committee (PAC) must follow up on this matter when tlhalosediswa ka ke utlwile gore o leloko la komiti. Ke the annual financial statements are presented, to cross bona gore ke kgang ya ba komiti tota. Jaanong ke tle check if Ministries actually needed the full amount ke go botse gore jaaka o bua o re bana ba itshwarelwe, that they presented in this supplementary. It is a bit a wena o bona e le phoso ya bana kgotsa e le tsamaiso of an untidy request because at the end of the day it jaaka e ba letlile, o supa le gore go a letlelesega. E bile also does not give Parliament many options; in most go a amogelesega mo Palamenteng gore madi a tla a instances the funds have already been spent. So that is tla a fetisiwa fela le fa a ka bo a setse a dirisitswe. Ga o the predicament that the committee face. I thank you bone e le tsamaiso e bana ba e itseng gore e teng, a ba Mr Speaker. molato go e sala morago?

MR GOYA (PALAPYE): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa MR GOYA: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mma ke simolole fela ka Palamente le Mokaulengwe. Se ke se supang ke gore go bolelela Tona gore ke mo ema nokeng. Ke sale ke bana ba dirile phoso. E re ba dira phoso jaana, kana fa simolotse go ema Tona Rre Tibone nokeng maloba re o na le bana mo lelwapeng o le mogolo, o tshwanetse le kwa Komiting ya Finance and Estimates e ke leng gore fa o bonang gore o kare ba tswa mo tseleng, o mongwe wa maloko a yone. Ke batla go supa fela gore nne o ba kgalema. O ba raye o re nnyaa, bongwanaka dikopo kokeletso madi tse Tona a di beileng fa pele ga boang koo, se le se dirang seo jaanong o kare le dira rona tse, ke tsamaiso e e leng teng ka thulaganyo ya tsa phoso. Se ke se buang ke gore e re ntswa bana ba dirile kabo ya madi. Ga se selo se e leng gore o kare re dule phoso e ba e dirileng, mme bagolo le bone, Tona wa mo tseleng kana Tona o dule mo tseleng fa a tla go tlisa Finance e le modisa wa letlotlo kana wa kgetsi ya kopo ya go nna jaana. Se ke batlang go se supa ke gore madi a puso, o tshwanetse gore gangwe le gape a nne nna ke ne ke tshela ke utlwa gotwe Palamente go na a tlhatlhoba a bona gore madi a a abetseng maphata a le gore fa gongwe go ntse go buiwa dipuo tsa gore, it a dirisiwa sentle. Ka gore e bile fa a dirisiwa jaana go rubber stamps decisions tsa Executive. Ke ne ke ntse na le mo gotweng ke ceiling, a tlhole gore ba tsamaya ke sa dumalane le pego ya go nna jaana. Gompieno go le kae go atumela ceiling. A nne a ba raya a re, “a le ke gone ke dumalanang le yone ka gore ke iponetse a bona gore jaanong le setse le atumela ceiling, a ga le ka matlho, gore selo se se boammaaruri Palamente fa bone le tla a tlhoka gore le kope kokeletso ya madi.” E gongwe rubber stamps decisions tsa Executive. se ka ya nna mo e leng gore…

Se ke se buang ke se buisiwa ke gore go na le MR NSHIMWE: On a point of clarification Mr kopo kokeletso madi ya Financial Paper No. 3 of Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. Ke utlwa Motlotlegi a 2008/2009, ka fa e ntseng ka teng, nako e e tlisiwang supa gore he is a Member of the Estimate Committee. ka yone mo Palamenteng, e diegile fela thata. Mo go Ga ke itse gore kgang e a e buang fa gore bana ba ba supa fela gore madi a setse a dirisitswe, jaanong go itshwarelwe, a ke recommendation ya committee ya tliwa fela kwa Palamenteng gore Palamente jaanong gagwe kana ke maikutlo a gagwe a a tlang ka one e tle go dumalana le madi a a setseng a dirisitswe. gompieno jaana a le masha le gore ke eng a sa a ntsha Tona o ne a bua kgantele gore ba ya go tseela bodiredi kwa komiting gore komiti e dire recommendation to dikgato kana ba setse ba kwaletse bodiredi dikwalo Parliament? Thank you. tsa gore ba tlhalose gore ke eng ba ne ba dirisa madi

Hansard No 163 Part 4 105 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion MR GOYA: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo of life. Ga re utlwele golo go le gongwe fela, and our tsa Palamente. E kile ya re nako nngwe ke bua gone ability to interpret issues ga di tshwane. So, I find it fa, Motlotlegi mongwe a mpotsa sengwe se e leng very moral and proper go bo a mo nnetse fa fatshe. gore ke se ke ne ke sa se bua. Le gompieno jaana Motlotlegi Rre Saleshando yo e leng Modulasetilo MR GOYA: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa wa Komiti ya Finance and Estimates, o ntse a le fa a Palamente. Nnyaa mme kana Motlotlegi wa Chobe ke rolela Palamente gore recommendations tsa Komiti ya tsala ya me ga se gore ke ne ke mo kgesa ka nngwe Finance and Estimates ke eng. Ke ne ke solofela gore tsela. Mma ke tswelele ke bue ka gore ke ne ke le mo rotlhe re mo reeditse ka botlalo, jaanong fa Motlotlegi kgannyeng ya gore kare a bana ba itshwarelwe. A ba a mpotsa gore a se ke se buang se ke recommendation itshwarelwe ka gore fa makgoa ba re, “once beaten ya Finance and Estimate Committee, re ntse re sa tswa twice shy.” Ga ke na tumelo ya gore mo tsamaong ya go di bewa pele, o ne a sa reetsa. Jaanong ke kopa gore nako kana mo dingwageng tse di tla a tlang, bana ba Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente fa le ka bona ba tla a dira phoso e e ntseng jaana. Ke dumela gore madinyana golo gongwe le direle Mapalamente course le Tona wa tsa Madi le Ditlhabololo le ene o ithutile ya go ya to upgrade their skills tsa theetso. Ke se ke tla sengwe mo kgannyeng ya go nna jaana. E tla a re mo a se kopang gore ba nne ba reetsa sentle, mme se... tsamaong ya nako kana mo dingwageng tse di tlang a nne a okomela dibuka, a okomela letlotlo la gagwe a MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Palapye, bona gore madi a a abetseng maphata, a maphata ba a much as se o se buang se ka tswa se na le moko, I dirisa ka thulaganyo e ba neng ba e kopetse. Gape a find your statement very very unfair because you are ntse a lebelela le ceilings gore a ga ba di atumele. painting all Honourable Members with the same brush. At least o re bangwe ba bone. Nna ka fa tsholofelong ya me ke gore tota fa go kopiwa kokeletso ya madi, e tshwanetse gore e nne nngwe fela MR GOYA: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa in a financial year. Jaanong fa o bona gompieno go tla Palamente. Nnyaa ke ne ke tseela gore kana fa gongwe Financial Papers, go tla bonumber two, three, mme e bokoa re ka tswa re bo bona mo go yo mongwe, bile ngogola re tswa go nna le e nngwe e go neng go gongwe le ba bangwe ba le teng ba ba nang le bokoa kopiwa madi, go go raya fela gore nnyaa golo fa go jo bo ntseng jalo. Gongwe ba ne ba ka tswelwa mosola kwa ga mmapereko, ga go a salwa dilo sentle ka fa ke thulaganyo ya go nna jalo. Mma ke tswelele ke re thulaganyong. Ke se ke neng ke se kopa gore Tona ya dikopo tse di tlileng pele, e re ntswa madi a ne a lebega tsa Madi le Ditlhabololo, a a nne a okomela, at least a setse a dirisitswe... on a quarterly basis. He must call the statements tsa Ministries, a di lebalebe, a di sekaseke a bone gore MR MABILETSA: On a point of procedure Mr tsamao ya madi go tsamaya ka thulaganyo e e tseng Speaker. Mr Speaker I think it is provided for in our jang. Fa a bonang o kare gongwe tiriso ya madi e Standing Orders that when another member is holding ile magoletsa a bitse Tona wa Ministry o a mo reye the floor, one seated if he/she has any interruption, a re, “rraetsho kana mmaetsho, a o bona le le mo or enquiry, or even clarification that he/sshe wants to thulaganyong sentle ya lona ka fa le kopileng madi ka make, he/she can do so, so that he/she can gain better teng, a ga o bone gore o kare le tla a ya go tlhoka madi understanding, which I thought Honourable Nshimwe kwa bofelong ja ngwaga kana jang.” Go seka ga nna go was trying to seek. Now when a member holding the tla go kopiwa madi kgapetsakgapetsa mo Palamenteng, floor responds, and respond in a manner as if the member ke sone se ke ne ke se bua fela. Tsone dikopo tse jaaka has made a mistake, it becomes totally out of order and modulasetilo wa Komiti ya Finance and Estimates a sa unprocedural in terms of our Standing Orders, because tswa go di bua Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente it provides for that. I thought Mr Speaker you should di maleba. Di maleba ga go na mo e leng gore re le actually draw the attention of Honourable Goya that, Palamente re ka di gana, a re rubber stamps fela ka yes what Honourable Nshimwe was doing was within gore ke dilo tse e leng gore ga re ka ke ra di gana. Ke the bounds of the Standing Order. I thank you. dilo tse e leng gore o a bona gore madi a teng a ya go MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Members, dirisiwa mo dithulaganyong tse di siameng, ga go na please in all fairness to the Honourable Member of jaaka re ka di boela ka morago. Ka one mafokonyana a Parliament for Palapye, he responded to how important, makhutshwane a ke boele kwa morago jalo. how strong, how weak he felt the interruption was. MR GABORONE (SOUTH EAST NORTH): Ke a There is no specific Standing Order that compels one leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Le nna to assess positively. I mean in all fairness bagaetsho ke emela go dumalana le Tona mo go se a se buang. we are not all gifted the same. It is quite a naked fact Mo dipuisanyong tsa rona re le komiti, dilo dingwe tse

106 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion e keteng re a di lemoga ke gore, go a ne go lebiwe e not have to be worried about what action will be taken kete madi o kare a tla a tlhaela le fa tota go sa nna le as long as the action is within the law. Ka gore mo tshekatsheko e e supang gore madi a tla a tlhaela. Fa go gongwe re bua ka dilo tse, re neneketsa batho ba e leng nna jaana, go re ketefaletsa tiro gore re bone botlhokwa gore ba ntsha bana mo tseleng. Ke a leboga. jwa gore, re dumalane le dilo tse tsa mofuta o ka gore o kare badiri fa gongwe fa ba bona o kare ngwaga o MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS tsamaela go fela, ba bo ba re mme e kete gongwe re DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): Ke a tla a tlhaelelwa, ba ise ba dire. Ke sone se e rileng golo leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Rraetsho, gongwe ra bona gore mo maphateng a mangwe, re le nna ke emelela go tlatsa kopo e e beilweng fa pele ga lemoge gore go tlhokafala gore re gane ka gore go ne go Ntlo e, ke Tona. Mme e re ke dira jalo, ke akgole komiti sa dirwe, le Tona o lemogile kgang eo. E e ntshwenyang e e neng e tshwere tiro e, bogolo thata Modulasetilo go di feta tsotlhe ke mo gotweng Accounting Officer wa yone Rraetsho Honourable Dumelang Saleshando. o kwalelwa lekwalo a bodiwa gore, “show cause why Ka fa a neng a baya pego ka teng. Nnyaa, bagaetsho we should not discipline you”. Fa gongwe Accounting motho fa a tswerefetse o tswerefetse le fa e ka bo e se Officer bagaetsho re a bo re bua ka motho yo e leng gore ngwana wa ga mmaago. Lefufa le ka bo le le teng mme o tsere instructions from somebody else. o tswerefetse. Le mo ngwageng o o fetileng e rile re leba report e, ya tla e le botswerere jo re bo utlwang. Jaanong go go bedi. Go na le gore Accounting Officer a gane instruction ya yo mongwe yo o fa godimo Kana selo se, fa re batla go supa boikarabelo jwa ga gagwe. A bo a nna insubordinate. Kgotsa a dire Palamente le dikomiti tsa yone, re raya go dirwa jaana. se gotweng a se dire, a bo a fiwa punishment ke ba Go sa tshamekiwe dipolotiki tse re atleng re di dire, finance. Dilo tse, re tshwanetse ra di leba. My advice fa gongwe fa re le mo matshwamekwaneng. Ke tsaya to them is that when an instruction is wrong, they must gore Rraetsho, tiro e ntseng jaana, ke yone e e ka re refuse and put their heads on the block at least. Ba tle thusang fa re lebagana le boammaaruri. Mme ke ne ke ba tswele kwa ntle e re ba kobiwa kante ba otlhaiwa ba re, selo se se neng sa ntshwenya fela mo pegong ya re, “ke tsone contradictions tsa gore re solofela gore gago ke fa o neng o bua ka gore fa le biditse batho gore re behave ka tsela e e leng gore, ga re senyetse puso ba tlhalose boAccounting Officer, ba bolela gore dituelo madi. Fa re gana, we are insubordinate.” Dilo tse di a tse dingwe, di a bo di sa rulaganyediwa mo ngwageng diragala. Jaanong eo ke batla go bua ka yone e le nosi wa madi. Mme ba bo ba bolelelwa gore, “duelang.” E fela ya gore, that thing ya show cause, gongwe re ne bo e le gore jaanong ba ulaula fale ba bo ba ya go tsaya re itse fela gore that particular Accounting Officer was le madi a tota a ka bong a beetswe dingwe ditiro, ba instructed ke mongwe above. duela ka one. Kgantele ba bo ba sala ba tla ka meoketsa e ba e kopang e. MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MR MOKALAKE): Ke kopa tlhaloso. Ke ne ke re ke a Jaanong ke re, go na le phoso golo foo e badiredi ba ka leboga Mokaulengwe for yielding. Ke ne ke re fa gotwe bong ba e dira, fa e le gore ba dira jalo. Fa gotwe madi show cause ga se opportunity ya gore the subordinate, a tla a okediwa, a ke re 10 kana 15 per cent yo o neng a tlhalose gore mme kana o ka re ke ne ke filwe e le a seyo mo dithulaganyong tsa ngwaga oo, thulaganyo instruction go tswa kwa bagolong. Gore le bone ba tle ya tsamaiso ya madi ke gore ba ye go dira mo gotweng ba kwalelwe gore show cause? Ke a leboga. budget. Ba ye go kwala gore mme fa re dira jaaka le bolela ka 10 per cent yoo, re ya go tlhokega gore re MR GABORONE: Thank you. Ke yone nako eo rra. A tlise madi a mangwe, bokana. Selo se ba se tewang ke mme gone go a diragala, is the question? A fa jaanong Ministry of Finance ke gore, mo mading a le a buang, yo o tsereng kgato e a itseng gore ka fa molaong ga a senkang pele mo go a lona, fa le bonang le tla a se ke le tshwanela go ka bo a e tsere, a dirile se a se dirileng, a dirise madi otlhe mo ngwageng ono. Ke gore identify fa gotwe wena o ne o sa itse molao gore wa reng, a go possible areas of savings. Fa ba teilwe jalo, ga ba a iwa kwa godimo kwa gotwe jaanong yo o kwa godimo tshwanela gore ba ye go tshwara madi a go itseweng a tseelwe kgato? Ke yone kgang e ke buang ka yone gore a mo contracts. Madi a contracts ke a salaries, le gore, Accounting Officers ba itse gore ba na le dithata. a mangwe a a seng mo contracts. Sensitive areas like Dithata tsa bone ke go diragatsa molao ka fa o ntseng medicines kana petrol tsa dikoloi o tsaya madi a tsone ka teng. Fa e le gore o fiwa instruction e e duleng mo o ntse o itse gore gongwe go ka nna ga nna le mathata tseleng ke yo o kwa godimo ga gagwe, a gane. A a koo. O leba dilo tse di tshwanang, a ke re dipeo fa o kobiwe mo tirong. Ba bangwe re ne ra kobelwa go le kwa Agriculture, mme o itse gore nako ya temo e gana tsone dilo tseo. Jaanong ke sone se e leng gore re fetile madinyana a teng, o simolola gone foo. E bo e re tshwanetse gore re rute Public Servants gore they do fa o sena go dirisa a a bonalang, a a bidiwang savings

Hansard No 163 Part 4 107 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion a ka tla a bolokega, ke gone o bo o boela kwa Finance MR SPEAKER: I could not agree more with you jaanong o re, madi a ke a tlhokang to supplement my Honourable Minister. vote ke a. MS VENSON-MOITOI: Ga ba na se ba ka se buang. Jaanong ke ne ke utlwa o kare Modulasetilo o ne a re o Jaanong fa ba bangwe ba bua, ba a bua. Ke tla a tla ke kare ba simolola ba duela pele, e bo e re supplements hira boparo fa ke le batla. For now please, keep quite. fa di tla, di bo di tla o kare there are just an accident ya selo. Ga ke ganetsane nao, ke dumalana le wena gore MR MMOLOTSI: Point of order. Motlotlegi mme fa e le gore ba dira jalo rraetsho, ke phoso go tla Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke utlwa a re kwa Finance, ba simolole ba gakololwe gore tiro mafoko a ‘diparo’ mo Palamenteng a ntshita. O kare ya bone ke gore ditshwetso tsotlhe tse di dirwang di Motlotlegi Tona ga a mo tseleng sentle gore a refer to ama budget, ba tshwanetse ba di cost in full pele. E re Batlotlegi Mapalamente, a re ‘diparo’. ba sena go dira jalo, ke gone ba bo ba bona gore go ka MR SPEAKER: May we have order please, a tle a duelwa jang, go simololwa ka tsone savings. ipatlele re le mo order. Honourable Members please, MR GUMA: Point of elucidation Mr Speaker. Standing Order 46 (4) says, “No member should use abusive language to another member”. So, in case MS VENSON-MOITOI: O a bo o tlile. but I was very attentive to Honourable Venso-Moitoi, honestly. MR SPEAKER: Is there any Honourable Member called o a bo o tlile here? MS VENSON-MOITOI: Ba nkitsa go wela. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke ne ke le MR GUMA: Thank you Mr Speaker. I just want to mo kakgelong ya ga Honourable Gaborone. Rraetsho, elucidate on the point that the Honourable Minister is boPermanent Secretary (PS) ga ba a tshwanela gore ba raising here. The point that I want to further elaborate fiwe taelo ya gore ba ise madi, a sa rulaganyediwang is that, normally when there has been a salary increase, go ya teng ke ope Tona. E bile molao o a ba sireletsa it is not budgeted for, it is assumed that there would be gore ba gane. Tsamaiso e ntse jalo. E bile fa go ntse some savings in vacancies. When those savings do not jalo, Tautona o re boleletse a re laela re le mmogo arise, because the amount has not been budgeted for, for Matona le bone boPermanent Secretary gore, fa le instance if the Minister says, “this financial year there tla a sekeng le dumalane teng, bogolo le tle kwano. would be a salary increase of six per cent,” normally Ga go na yo o tshwanetseng gore a paledise tiro ya that six per cent is not part of the Appropriation Bill. yo mongwe. E tlhamaletse Rraetsho. Ke raya gore go As a result there is no amount that has been budgeted bonolo gore o bo o gakolola tiro eo, mme ke tshwanelo for, you cannot stop salaries. Ministries find themselves gore le rona ba re e boleletsweng, re go tlatse. Gore having to pay for the salaries, even though the amounts go tle go itsiwe gore fa sepe se ka tswa mo tseleng, ke have not been appropriated. I have just wanted to clarify ka bokoa jwa setho. E seng jwa tsamaiso ya puso ya that particular matter. That is how it arises Mr Speaker. ga Domkrag. Ke tshwanetse selo se ka se bua gore re MS VENSON-MOITOI: Nnyaa, o nthusitse go e bua utlwane. Le fa ba bangwe gongwe bone ba sa ka ke ba ka Sekgoa, mme ke ne ke rialo. tlhaloganya kgang eo.

Kgang ya bobedi e e neng e buiwa ke Honourable Jaanong kgang ya show cause, ke dumela fa Honourable Gaborone e ke dumalanang le wena Rraetsho mo go Mokalake a ne a e bua. Ka gore go tshwanetse ga yone ke ya gore, Accounting Officers, ditshwetso tsa botswa yo o romilweng. bone le kwa mading re le botona jaana, thata ya rona e HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... na le fa e emang teng. Madi go dirisiwa a a dumetsweng ke Ntlo e, mo ditirong tse di dumetsweng ke Ntlo e. MS VENSON-MOITOI: Ao! batho, lenxa ga ke re mme ga le tle ka kwano? Ke gore go botswe yo o HONOURABLE MEMBER: E ntse jalo. romilweng ka gore, ga go ka ke ga botswa yo o sa MS VENSON-MOITOI: Nnyaa, iketleng pele, romiwang. Gore yo o romilweng fa a tlhalosa a re, ga ke bue ka dilo tse di duleng mo tseleng, ka re “ke ne ka tewa ka labokana gatwe ke dire jalo, mme tsamaiso e ntse jalo. Jaanong fa thulaganyo e ntse ke ganne.” Go ka nna maswabi fa a ka tewa gatwe jalo, boPermanent Secretary (PS) kana bo Accounting dira selo, a itse gore ga se mo tsamaisong, a bo a Officer…(interruption)… o itse gore batho ba ba nnang se dira. E bo e re gotwe show cause, a bo a re ke fa morago ga me fa Mr Speaker, modumo wa bone ga dirile ka ke ne ke patikiwa. Foo e tla a bo e le yo ke o tlhaloganye. o senang boikarabelo. Ke dumela gore e re gotwe,

108 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion “show cause,” e bo e le ya gore o ganne taelo. A bo a simolole ka gore, fa e le gore you want to computerise bolela gore, “ke ganne taelo eo, ka go bo e ne e le in government systems, including financial ones, contravention of regulation so and so.” purchases and anything, when you do it, do it in full. Do not do it half way, because if you do it half way, Bagaetsho re filwe boikarabelo joo mme bo tshwanetse mathata a a ntseng a buiwa ke the Minister yo o ntseng jwa itsiwe gore bo dirwa ka fa tlase ga tsamaiso e e a re baya kgang pele, mathata a a ntseng a buiwa ke beilweng mo molaong. Tona o mo tsamaisong, komiti Motlotlegi Saleshando, Modulasetilo wa Finance and rona re dumela gore fa le ka tshwara tiro jaana, re tla Estimates Committee, ga a ka ke a tlhoka go nna teng. a thusana. E re ka moso re seke re bonane diphoso Ke buisiwa se ke gore, o a itse gore mo Palamenteng tse dingwe tse re di itshelelang mo nageng, e se tsa e e neng e feta, re ne re le maloko a Public Accounts boammaruri. Rraetsho ke a leboga. Committee mmogo, mme re ne ra leka go ipha botlhale MR MABILETSA (KGATLENG EAST): Mr jwa go itse ka Government Accounting and Budgeting Speaker mma ke go leboge. E re mo go go lebogeng, System (GABS). Re ne ra ipha botlhale joo, ba tla ba ke re botlhokwa jwa kgang ya ga Tona ka dikopo tsa re tlhalosetsa about how powerful that tool is. Very gagwe le gore go diregile eng, ke tsaya gore ga se gone powerful, it can do anything se ke utlwang le ntse le se mo re ka ganetsanyang ka gone. Fa re sa ganetsane ka bolelelwa fa, according to how we were seminarised, if moo, nna se ke batlang go se bua ke matshwenyego I may borrow your terminology Mr Speaker. fela a tsamaiso ya lephata la ga Tona. Ke buisiwa se gape ke gore, fa o reka kana o dira any Matshwenyego a ke nang le one, Modulasetilo wa purchase e o e dirang mo ga goromente, ga o ye go reka Finance and Estimate Committee o setse a a buile. I think pele ka molomo o bo o re ke a reka ke tsaya golo mo, I am on record ke ntse ke lebisa Tona matshwenyego e bo e le gone o dirang purchase order. Purchase order a gangwe le gape, e bile ke botsa dipotso ke re Tona at the time when it is done, ke a tle ke bone badiredi gongwe a di arabe. The way a neng a di araba ka teng, ba ntse ba re they commit the funds. When they commit ke lebega ke le a doubting Thomas ka tsone, gompieno funds, gakere go raya gore they will speak to somebody ke batla go akgola ba Finance and Estimates Committee in charge of the ledger of the purchasing account, if I because they have vindicated me mo selo se neng Tona were to put it that way. Fa e le gore golo mo, jaaka ke a gongwe a akanya gore, ga ke utlwisise. Kana ba na le tle ke bone le gompieno ba go dira, go santse go dirwa dithata ka fa ke neng ke ama kgang ya me ka teng, ka go le manual go se live. Le ka galefa go le kanakang, we sebaka se ke neng ke e bua ka sone. are bound gore re dire ka gore ke tsaya gore re na le an important tool we are not taking full advantage of, ya Ke maswabi gore the substantive Minister of Finance GABS. Kana gore it is not being taken full advantage le ene ga a yo fa. Ka gore, ke ne ke akanya gore e tla a of, Minister re leba wena. Rona re ba re ka omanang re ke bua, nnyaa, I recognise gore ke batla both of them fa, mme wa ikarabela le nna ka ikarabela, nna ke go ka gore ba babedi. Both of them ba ne ba patelesega raya ke re go palelwa wena o le Minister. I am making gore ka tsela nngwe ba nkarabe dipotso tse ke neng ke that statement to you, ka gore fa o dira that GABS o e di ba botsa gone fa. Ba botlhe ba ne ba sa dumalane tsaya half way, there is no way o ka tlhokang to avoid gore gongwe ke akanya sentle. go nna le unauthorised excesses tse gompieno o reng re di dumele. Ke ne ke re ke tlhalose kgang e. PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR APPROXIMATELY 25 MINUTES Mma ke fe tshwantshanyo nngwe ke e. Fa o ya kwa dibankeng o ya go tsaya madi a gago o itse gore a MR MABILETSA: Thank you Mr Speaker. Minister teng, ka gore system ya bone e live. Before a ka go Tibone, mma ke go leboge gore o tswa go bitsa mogoloo, duela o tla a bona a lebeletse computer, e bo e kete e tle e re fa re buisanya, ka gore jaanong ke chance ya gore go dia tsamaiso. That computer is communicating le ke bue ke phuthologile, gongwe e tle e re fa re bitsana mongwe with authority gore; a mme ke madi a motho kwa diofising jaaka re solofetsane, mme gongwe le bo le yo, a teng, ee madi a teng, mme a ke yo o nang le nkutlwile, gongwe le tla a mpaakanyetsa sentle. thata ya go rebola madi a a kana. Le mo GABS, ga Sa ntlha ke supile gore mabaka a gore le tlhoka madi ke bone sepe se se ka dirang gore e re fa e le gore jang, ga ke ganetsanye le one, mme ke mo tsamaisong go dirwa expenses tse di dirwang, at the time ya fa go fela, ka fa dilo di dirwang ka teng mo goromenteng, dirwa Government Purchasing Orders (GPO), if it is segolo jang ke lephata la lona le le eteletseng pele the time ya gore go dirwe di GPO, mongwe fela e re tsamaiso kana management of resources, particularly fa GPO gotwe e a kopiwa, when it is being authorized financial resources. Sa ntlha Mr Speaker, mma ke and committed, mongwe a re wait a minute, ga le na

Hansard No 163 Part 4 109 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion madi you cannot proceed. E bo e le gore kgang ya and asked for supplementary ya more than P4 billion. gore ga go na madi go diregile eng ka madi, can take Jaanong o bo o ipotsa gore, fela jaaka Motlotlegi a ne place at that point before e bile go dirwa commitment a bua gore a mme tota le ne le sa elelelwe seemo se, epe. Kwa dibankeng go bereka jalo, e bo e le gore who la se leba la bona gore a mme tota re tla a goroga kwa authorises go tsamaya ka maemo go fitlhelela the last re yang teng. Ka gore fa go nang le a control system man who can authorise. teng e e berekang, e bile e le live, you can see gore who are the good spenders according to plans le ba e leng Kgang e ke e buang e ke reng Tona o a palelwa, ke e gore are the slow spenders according to plans, both buisiwa ke gore ke batla gore e tle e re when he stands in Recurrent and Development Budget. This you can on a point of elucidation or clarification or in response, do. Fa e le gore nnyaa, ke gore lephata le le rileng, let kana the substantive Minister ka he is not presenting me take lephata le tshwana le la Local Government or pampiri, a batla go bua, a a leke go wela mo kgannyeng maybe Health, for Development Budget ba batla P551 e. What I like about the substantive Minister is that he million for development projects, e bo e le gore madi is not a street fighter like most of you do, o a reetsa, o ao a ya kwa go bone go ntse jalo, go bo … kgona go araba sentle like his predecessor did. So, ke tla a kopa gore kgang e a tle a e dire. MR GUMA: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Honourable Member, I just want to understand gore, Gape both of you Honourable Ministers, ke when they budget in the beginning, a madi a a a bo a le tshwenngwa ke gore o kare le magatlapa thata when teng or e a bo e le projected revenue focus gore go tla a it comes to managing resources. Ke gore fa le bona a nna le bokana, we will be able to raise so much. Fa ba small sign fela e e seng kaenyana, le setse le tshoga, bona gore gongwe madi ga a tle go nna teng, a ga ba and I do not believe gore Cabinet e ka re go dirwe a tshwanela gore ba nne ba ntse ba adjust ba lebeletse budget cuts go sena recommendations tsa lona. Fa seemo sa the inflow of revenues? o utlwa ke dira these allegations, strongest it may, when I want to solicit the Minister’s comment, kwa MR MABILETSA: Thank you. A very good question morago fa a ka a tsaya floor, ke gore ke batla gore a Honourable Member. Mma ke e bue jaana, yes go na itlhalose. Ka gore, ke boditse dipotso fa, tse di neng le trend ya gore when they budget jaana, they do not di amana le withdrawal of warrants, contesting your budget mo lefaufaung, trend e teng e a ba supegetsa. Se mandate to do that and you were compelled to show se kgatlhang ka the very particular year e ke buang ka cause why you were doing that, under what powers yone ke gore, ba ne ba supile according to trend gore you were doing that. Ke ngongoregela le gore you they are going to achieve go setse P24 point something were excluding Parliament in that process. I must billion, they ended up with P27 billion. Ga kere o a actually caution the Minister gore, I am intending to bona, there was that trend e e neng e supa. Mme at the come up with a motion e e tla a dirang gore e re o end, like ngwaga o fela jaana, go lebega go ya go nna tsaya ditshwetso tseo, o seka wa di tsaya unilaterally le, especially kwa Development Expenditure, go ya go without consulting Parliament. nna le a lot of unspent balances. Tse e leng gore tseo fa e ne e le gore jaaka ke bua gore fa system e ne e le live, I asked you the question the other day gore mme tota they could actually see who are likely to spend and st these cuts le tsere tshwetso leng. Ke gore e rile di 31 exhaust their funds and who are not likely to spend. fa e le gore President assents to the Bill, e nna an Act of Parliament, on the 1st le bo le mo raya le re, “ntsha golo Mme ke go fe sekai Motlotlegi Guma, through you Mr mo,” kana le raya Cabinet. I do not know which date, in Speaker, ke re, e ne ya re ke tshwenngwa ke seemo April you did it, but you considered it in April. Re bo re se se tsweletseng se ntshwenya, P674 or 78, whatever bua gore, ao! ke eng o ne o sa bue gore ke na le mathata the amount is ya Development Budget, e e emisitseng ke a, o bo o nthaya o re Government budgeting is a projects tse tsotlhe. Nna ke dumela gore Minister o ne very complicated process. Ke bo ke ipotsa gore, kana a tshoga ka tsela e go neng go sa tshwanelwa ke gore a le nna I have dealt with budgeting kwa bankeng. I have tshoge, because ultimately he has come up with much done it, and I have looked after management accounts. more greater requests through supplementaries. A bo Ke ipotsa gore mo le neng le go dira gompieno le tla a re raya a re o emisitswe ke gore o ne a tshosiwa ke ka supplementaries jaaka le tla ka tsone jaana, mme gore ga go na madi. Jaanong mme Palamente e ne e you have withdrawn madi. I think you withdrew in total dirile proper arrangements tsa gore madi a a dira. He P674 million ya Development Budget and another P1.2 indicated to us ene, mo re neng ra dumalana le ene billion ya Recurrent Budget, if the figures are correct. gore sources of funding the Current Budget are a, b, c, Ga ke mo the figures, ke mo go reng fela you have d, e and f, tse Palamente e e neng ya di dumalana. withdrawn. After that you came back to this House

110 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion Mo bo gompienong jaana, ka gore kgang e e a ba tsaya kae dipalo tsa gore ba re 7 per cent le 5 per ntshwenya, e ne ya re fa Matona during Committee cent. Ke tsaya gore ga ba ka ke ba di tsaya wena as of Supply, ba kopa dikopo tsa bone, ke ne ka lemoga Minister responsible for Finance, o ka seka wa supa bontsi jwa bone. Some of them ba ne ba tsamaya ba gore go ntse jalo. Ke raya o tshosiwa fela ke gore a bega gore “nnyaa, mo Development Budget as at the mme tota re ya go goroga fa re rileng re tla a goroga end of February, we spent go ema bokae.” Ba bangwe teng because kana commitment... they withhold this information. Ga ke itse gore ba ne ba dira ka bomo. E ne e le fela gore it was the style of gore MR GUMA: On a point of correction Mr Speaker. I we are not requiring them to do that. Gore ba itse fela think the word should be being “conservative” or “over gore fa ba tla fa, gore did they spend kana they did not conservative” not “scared” because the scaring part of it spend ga re ke re ba botsa those questions. gives an impression that you will be punished if you do that, but being “conservative” or “over conservative” Ke bo ke dira ditlhotlhomiso tsa me go bona gore mme means you do not want things to go wrong. I think that tota gone fa ngwaga o fela, out of the budget ya P14.45 should be the word. billion e re neng re e ba file gore ba e dirise, go ema ka di 28 tsa February gone go dirisitswe bokae. Fa ke dira MR MABILETSA: Semantics does not make any ditlhotlhomiso, ba ba neng ba ntlela ditlhotlhomiso, difference. The meaning of what I am saying and fa di ya go tla, ba bo ba tla ba di dirile as at the 8th the Minister has understood is what I really want us of March, yone kgwedi ya maabane e fela. Go bo go to appreciate. So, Honourable Minister, ke raya gore supa gore by the 8th of March, the expenditure was nna tota kgang ya me e e fa ke gore, re letse re fetisa around P11 billion 115 million. Bone ba tshotse P14 budget. Go tla a ntlhabisa ditlhong gape gore e re billion 445, e le approval e e neng e le gore it was sooner rather than later, ke raya gore mo go April authorised. Mo go raya gore by the 8th of March there gongwe, re utlwe gape o tla o re raya o re, “ke ile was an unspent balance ya P3.3 billion, mme kwa re ka bona ekete ke...” Ke bua ka go tshoga, ke tshogela rile re emisitse projects just by a mere P674 million. fela gore are we going there. Conservatism is not Ultimately gongwe go tla go itshupa. necessarily an alarmist situation, o a bona. O a bo e le go leka to manage mme o re I am trying to take the MR TSOGWANE: On a point of procedure Mr lowest position and the most favourable but the risk Speaker. Much as I appreciate the deliberations by an free or less risky position. That is why ke dirisa lefoko Honourable Member, can he drive or link what he is la “scare” gore kana fa go nna jalo ga go reye gore saying because he is mainly dwelling on the budgeting Tona o tla a bapolwa. Go raya fela gore golo gongwe process or the last budget. He should show us how he ke mogakolodi wa ga goromente le Tautona mo go tsa links that to the supplementary estimates. I thank you. madi. I am speaking in this context.

MR MABILETSA: Thank you Mr Speaker. Ke supa Therefore, fa ke bua ka yone tsela e e tshwanang le e golo mo in relation le gore tota Ministers of Finance Minister, ke na le matshwenyego a budgets cuts tse le di must not actually become too scared. Yes, they may dirang mme le bo le boa le tla go kopa supplementary become scared but not too scared mo ba kgonang gore estimates. Ke dumalana le moono wa Finance and fa gongwe go nna scared ga bone, go dirisa Palamente Estimates Committee gore nnyaa fa gongwe le le goromente diphoso because... tshwanetswe ke gore le lebelele savings. Le gore gape jaaka ke ne ke bua le ka Government Purchase Orders MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT (GPOs) ka go dirisa government funds e bile ke buile PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): On a point ka the tool of your system that you have e ke tsaya of clarification Mr Speaker. Ke ne ke re just for gore e tshwana le tse dingwe tse ke di bonyeng kwa ga clarification maybe the Honourable Member could just goromente. clarify gore who are we scared of? Re tshoswa ke mang kana scared of what? Mr Speaker, mme ke go fe sekainyana sengwe ke se se ke kileng ka se bona; ngwana mongwe wa Maun go kile MR MABILETSA: What scares you jaaka Motlotlegi ga diragala gore a ikopele phatlha mo University of Guma a ne a mpotsa, ke a bo ke bona gore o kare le Botswana (UB). Fa a ikopetse phatlha a na le tshiamelo bona gore madi a le neng le rile le ya go a bona ga le ya go tsewa, fa a romelelwa lekwalo, a bo a tewa gotwe na go a bona hence you have made a recommendation. interview ga e na go nna kana nako e e tla a nna go Unless o ka nthaya wa re, “nnyaa, ga se rona who sele. Go bo go raya gore kana ka nako ya fa interview made recommendation, e ne e le Cabinet fela’. Fa e le e ya go dirwa, distance from Maun le nako ya gore go bone, I will engage them even thoroughly gore ba ne felelediwe dilo, a bo a ise a bone information. By the

Hansard No 163 Part 4 111 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion time he or she got that information a tla kwa go nna ke Having said all these I think the Minister presenting bo ke ya kwa UB, ba UB ba bo ba re, “nnyaa rona fa a the paper, realises gore I am not castigating him for na le scholarship re ka mo amogela.” Ke bo ke re ke ya requesting the supplementary estimates. Ke dumalana kwa Student Placement go bona Permanent Secretary le tsone but I thought fela gore gongwe re tshwanetse (PS). Ba bo ba nthaya ba re “nnyaa, system ya rona ya gore re mo supegetse gore gongwe Tona must get even computerisation ya sponsorship, ga e ipulelwepulelwe more involved gore periodically, a ke monthly kana ke fela ke mongwe le mongwe.” Gore bulwe, e bile tota quarterly, a kgone go tla a ntse a bona positions which e it has been blocked, go tlhoka authority e e rileng. will direct him gore a go ya teng kana ga go ye teng. Therefore, that is why ke le very adamant gore some Ka gore fa o ya go nna le unspent balances at the end of the excesses tsa over-expenditures le mo mading a of the year, o raya batho o re madi ga a yo mme re di salaries tota, we can know well in time to be able to bona jaaka re di bona gompieno jaana. Re palelwa ke come to it, e seng go ya go tla kwa bofelong. Ke gore go tlhalosetsa batho gore re dira jang ka gore nna fa those would not even occur. ke tsena kwa dikgotleng, ke a ba bolelela gore nnyaa, nna ke bona seemo se ntse jaana. Fa Tona a re madi ga Having raised matshwenyego a a tshwanang le a ke a a yo, mo go nna o bua a legendary story sa motho a go bolelela Tona, ke tsaya gore o a tlhaloganya mme le nna bolelela ka ntwa e le kwa Iraq le Iran mme e seyo mme o a lemoga gore ke a lemoga gore go diragala jang. I wena o bona gore boammaaruri ke bofe. Ka a ntse jalo may not necessarily be working for government as an Tona kopo yone tota is yours, ga ke e gane. I thank you officer ya Finance. At least financial transactions tse di Mr Speaker. kwa go goromente kana private sector where I come from tsone di tshwana fela. O tshwanetswe ke gore o MR SPEAKER: Bagaetsho ga ke kake ka ba itse gore if you commute madi, o raya gore a commuted ka le kganela go bua. Mma ke le kope Batlotlegi le fa go ka supafala balance mme computers di tla a go Mapalamente, re na le Motions tse di nang le impact bolelela gore o na le balance. If you try to draw money, e tona mo finances tsa ga goromente, re tshwanetse ra e go raya e re is commuted jaaka mo Automated Teller di fetsa. Re ka bo re sa bolo go di fetsa. Ke le kope Machines’ (ATMs) go na le available balance e leng gore bakaulengwe ba me gore le ikoteleng tlhe. o ka tsaya madi mo go yone. It is normally lower than the actual balance. Fa o bona go na le pharologanyo MR TSOGWANE (BOTETI NORTH): Ke a leboga ke gore gongwe o a bo o tsamaile o dirisa debit card or Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Re tsaya kopo Barclay card ya gago golo gongwe therefore o ka seka ya gago tsia Mr Speaker, ke boammaaruri go na le ba ba wa tsaya limit e o e bonalang e le the balance that you ipoeletsang gantsintsi motho a bua selo se sengwefela. can draw from. Ke tsaya gore tota fela fa e le gore tota Mma ke tswelele. Ke dumalana le kopo ka meno a goromente o tlhoafetse, he can go full swing into this maleele. Ke tsaya gore Tona should underline kgang thing. Mathata a re nang le one gompieno a Tona a a eo ya gore ke dumalana le kgang e ya gagwe ka meno buang a re, ‘hei, ke ya go sekisa ke ya go reng nnyaa a a maleele ka gore tota dilo dingwe mo teng, ke ne ke ka ka fela’. Le gore re bo re lebega ekete re ipokela gore seke ka dumalana le tsone fa e ne e le gore ga a a tla a re ya go otlhaya bangwe. Ee, re ya go otlhaya bangwe di phuthetse e le mhago o le mongwe fela. Gongwe go because of a failing system that we are not trying to ka mo tsaya lebaka gore a di kgaoganye. Dingwe re ne put it right. Ke tsaya gore mo seemong sa gompieno re ka di ntshetsa fale ra seka ra dumalana le tsone. goromente o na le more than five years a ntse a dirisa Mma ke simolole fela ke go leboga committee ya this Government Accounting and Budgeting System Palamente e e neng e sekaseka madi a a mooketsa (GABS) e ke tsayang gore is well understood ke officers. gore e bo e ne ya lebelela thata dilo dingwe gore a I do not think we should be there. di salwa morago mme ya ba ya supa matshwenyego a Jaanong e tshwanetse tota fela e bo e le gore problem yone. E bile mma ke supe gore re dumalana le section becomes at management level. Even those that 19(3)(a) ya Molao motheo. Sengwe le sengwe se re are warrant holders are not paying attention to the tshwanetseng gore re se dire, se tshwanetse gore se management of the resources tse ba di filweng through tsamaelane le maikutlo le mogopolo o e leng gore o the warrants that we have. Fa e le gore go na le that mo Molao motheong. E se re gongwe re bo re dirisa interest, concern and passion ya gore motho gongwe Molao motheo go fitlhelela dikeletso dingwe tse e leng e le Permanent Secretary (PS) e le a warrant holder, gore ga se tse Molao motheo o neng o remeletse mo go a itse gore he is warrant holder, Finance Officer ga e tsone. Ka Sekgoa ba a tle ba ba re, “Whatever we do ka ke a dira koo fela a tlhoka gore time and again a should be in the spirit of that Constitution”. Ke sone se mmontshe gore seemo se ntse jang. e leng gore nna ke ka se kopa thata. Ke buisiwa jalo ke gore dilo dingwe fela ka gore go na le Molao motheo o

112 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion o ntseng jalo, section eo e e nayang Tona go tla go kopa telephones, those who claim to be far from me who are madi a mooketsa, e bo e le gore le fa tota go ne go sa reading newspapers, ba le kgakala le nna, ke a le bona. tshwanela, a bo a ka tla fela ka gore o na le dithata tseo, You are contravening Standing Order 47(c). These are o newa dithata tseo ke Molao motheo. Fa a leke gore our rules and regulations; a re di tlotleng, Bagaetsho. dilo tse a di baakanye di tle ka tsela e e siameng. MR TSOGWANE: Ke a leboga Mr Speaker. Ba beye E bile ke tle ke supe jalo gore ke buisiwa se Motsamaisa leitlho le le ntshotsho jalo fela. Ke ne ke re, go ne go Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ke se se diragetseng mo kopilwe madi a mooketsa ka Constitution e letla sone nakong e e fetileng. Ke motho yo ke ntseng ke amogela se re se dirang gompieno. Batho ba nna le tsholofelo thata supplementaries ka fa di ntseng di dirwa ka teng. ya gore ba ya go direlwa metsi kwa motseng wa Se se diragatseng ka supplementaries tsa December Moremaoto, Kumaga le metse e mengwe e e neng 2009, ga se se tsamaelanang le Molao motheo one e tlhaelelwa ke metsi. Mme ga go a ka ga nna jalo o. Yes, go ne ga kopiwa madi ao a mooketsa ka maloba fa re le fa. Ke ne ka bo ka botsa potso gore, maikaelelo a gore ditiro dingwe di ya go dirwa mme go jaanong go diragetse jang ka madi a mooketsa a a neng bo go fitlhelwa e le gore ditiro tseo ga di ye go dirwa a kopilwe? Ga go a nna jalo, ga go yo mo thulaganyong, jaaka go ne go tshwanetse. Ke ne ka tla ka dipotso ka ke dingwe tsa projects that were deferred; just a month gore dingwe di ne di tshwanetse go ya go dirwa mo after madi a supplementary a kopiwa. Jalo, dilo tse fa kgaolong ya me di kopetswe madi a mooketsa mme tsa di sa tlhalosiwe tse, re tla a nna sebete se molangwana seka tsa ya go dirwa. E le gore dilo di tshwanetse gore gore a mme dilo di a bo di tlhalosegile mo e leng gore di tlhalosege ka gore fa re bua fano re kopela madi a mongwe le mongwe o a utlwisisa gore go ya go dirwa mooketsa, re kopela setshaba. Setshaba se reeditse, se eng ka madi a mooketsa. Kgotsa Tona o a bo o tla fela a utlwa gore project ya gore le ya gore di kopetswe ka dilo tse e leng gore ga di a tlhalosega sentle, tse di madi a mooketsa. Fa re sa tlhalose sentle gore tota re felelang di ya go itaya batho tsebe. Kana madi one a, bua ka selekanyo sefe kana stage sefe sa project eo, a ya go dirisiwa sepe se sele se e leng gore jaanong ga go itaya batho tsebe. Batho jaanong ba felela ba nna a se kopelwa mo supplementary estimates. Ke dingwe le ditsholofelo tse e leng gore madi ao ga a ye go dira dilo tse o tshwanetseng gore o di ele tlhoko. sepe se e leng gore ba se solofetse. Ke batla gore ke nopole with you permission... Ke batla go fa sekai sa bofelo gore ke tle ke tsamaele go wetsa. Fa o ka ntetla gape, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Sorry Honourable ya mangwe madi a a neng a fetisiwa ka yone nako eo, Tsogwane. Honourable Mabiletsa your departure shall mme a felela e le gore project eo ga re utlwisise sentle. be highly injurious to our quorum. Can you wait until Ke kopa go nopola gape the same supplementary someone comes back? estimates e re e fetisitseng ka December. Mr Speaker, “Ongoing projects include the construction of major MR TSOGWANE: Ke ne ke kopa gore ke tle ke road projects such as Francistown-Orapa junction to nopole mo go one madi a mooketsa a re neng ra a Mmatshumo, Tutume to Mosetse, Nata to Sepako, fetisa re le Palamente ka December 2009. Ke nopola Mahalapye/Kudumatse, Mabeleapodi/Tshimoyapula, mo Financial Paper No. 1 of 2009/2010, page 26. “Mr Bobonong/Tsetsebjwe. Construction of Thalamabele to Speaker, the villages of Middlepits, Khaa, Boteti North Mosu road, Lentsweletau to Hatsalatladi, Mmadunyane/ cluster, New Xade and Makgadikgadi are experiencing Mathangwane, Maratadiba/Modipane and Leshibitse serious water shortages and construction work for to A1.” Ke dingwe tsa dilo tse e leng gore re fetisitse water treatment plants are at tender award stage.” madi a mooketsa fa, e le gore gatwe projects tseo The projects will also benefit the villages of di tlhaeletswe ke madi. Ga tla ga gakgamatsa gape Kolonkwaneng, Bogogobo, Gakhibana, Khues, New batho ba Mosu fa ba fitlhela e le gore tsela ya bone Xade, Moreomaoto, Motlopi and Kumaga which are ya Thalamabele-Mosu, ga e sa tlhole e le teng, mme currently being supplied by water bowsing, which is go fetisitswe go le maabane gotwe go fetisiwa madi a not cost effect.” Ke raya gore ke madi a re neng re mooketsa. Ke re dilo tse a di tlhalosege. kopile a mooketsa, re a fetisa fa. Batswana ba utlwa Ke ne ka botsa potso gone fa, ka bo ke arabiwa, ke gore nnyaa mme ba ya go thusiwa gore project eo e ye bolelelwa ka consultancy le tse dingwe. Mme mo go go tswelela, Mr Speaker. kwadilwe fela gotwe construction of Thalamabele- MR SPEAKER: Sorry,Honourable Tsogwane. By Mosu road. Dilo tse bagaetsho, re tshwanetse re di the way, as the Speaker, I am privileged with certain tlhalose ka tsela e e siameng. E seka ya re ka moso e gadgets that you do not have. I see who are talking to the bo e le gore jaanong rona re fetisa madi a mooketsa, tota re sa tlhaloganye re le Palamente gore ra re madi a

Hansard No 163 Part 4 113 Thursday 1st April, 2010 FINANCIAL PAPER No. 3 of 2008/2009 AND FINANCIAL PAPER No. 2 of 2009/2010 Motion mooketsa fa re a fetisa, a ya go dira eng. Re tshwanetse you for the job well done gore le bo tsentse leitlho la bona gore re tlhaloganye gore madi a a mooketsa, jaaka re a gore nnyaa, mme go tlaa kgonagala ka se e leng gore re se fetisa jaana, a ya go feleletsa tsone ditiro tseo, kana a tshotse. E se ka ya re ka moso ba bo ba tla mo go lona, ba ya go dira tiro nngwe that was not budgeted for jaaka re kana rona re ne re le reile ra re, jaanong ke fa madi ga a Molao motheo o supa. Mme tota go tshwanetse gore go yo. Gongwe go gogilwe dinao go bo go ya go nna le cost ye go dirwa jalo. Ka gore, ga go re thuse e bile ga go overruns, le gore jaanong dingwe di salele kwa morago, thuse Palamente gore re bo re fetisa madi ao, a bo a felela go se ka ga implement kana ga fetswa tiro eo ka nako. Go a sa ya go dira se e leng gore se tshwanetse gore se ye bo gotwe jaanong komiti bonang kana rona re a bo re ne go dirwa. Ke dilo dingwe tse e leng gore di a tshwenya re buile. Dilo tse re tshwanetse ra di lebelela. e bile di dira gore re nne sebete se molangwana fa e le gore jaanong go tliwa ka supplementary gone fa. Se ke bonang komiti e ne e se kopa, ke se e ntseng e le gore e se kope se nne mo maruding a sone. Modulasetilo Modulasetilo, ke fete eo. Modulasetilo o ne a supa o ne a bua ka gore, o kopa gore go lebelelwe ka fa ba neng ba ntsha nngwe temana ya health mo supplementaries gore a mme go ya go diragadiwa. Ke supplementaries tsa gompieno ka mabaka a e leng gore re, nnyaa, fa e le gore komiti ga e na marapo, go tlaa re ba ne ba a ntsha. Well, re ka tswa gongwe rona re le mo nakong e e tlang, go bonwe gore komiti e e neelwa Palamente, Modulasetilo a re boleletse jaaka a ne a re marapo a gore dilo tsotlhe tse e leng gore e di fetisitse boleletse. Mme gongwe ka ene o ne a le kwa komiting fa, jaanong e di lebelele. E bone gore a mme le tsone di a tlhalosetswa sentle, ba lebagane le ba Ministry of tlaa felela di diragaditswe jaaka di ne di tshwanetse. Ka Finance, gongwe ba ne ba fiwa mabaka mangwe a e leng gore fa nne komiti e ne e tsentse leitlho, tsone dikgang gore a ne a dira gore ba dumele gore tota go tshwanetse tse ke neng ke di bua tsa gore madi a ntshetswa se, go gore projects tsa lephata leo di tswe. Jaanong nna ke tswa fa ga se ye go dirwa, e ne e ka bona gore mme ga le nosi fa, ke bona go nna thatanyana, go tlhokana go a dirwa jaaka go ne go kopilwe. Gongwe komiti le le gore gongwe go tlhalosiwe go feta foo. Gongwe yone e se ka ya re Public Accounts Committee (PAC); re ya go feta re itaya batho tsebe kwa, re bodiwa ke no, ke e sele. E na le se e se lebileng. Jaanong a yone batho gore jaanong ba health bone la ba ntsha ka leso komiti e ya Finance and Estimates Committee e bone legolo. E le gore mabaka a a neng a dumalanwa, le gore fa e simolotse e lebeletse dilo tse, e feleletse tiro bone ba ministry ba bona gore re dirile phoso, ka gore ya yone e bona gore a mme sa maloba e se kopile gore ba ministry komiti convinced them gore tota e ga e a e se rolela Palamente, a se ya go diragadiwa jaaka e ne tshwanela. Jaanong fa di sa tlhalosege sentle le tsone e kopile. Gongwe komiti eo e neelwe marapo ao a go di ntse di a tshwenya. Ka gore rona re le Palamente; bona gore dilo di diragadiwa sentle. yes, komiti is an extension of Parliament mme fela le rona we must be convinced ka one mabaka ao... Ya bofelo e e neng e ntshositse, ke yone e go tweng go bo go tla go kopiwa madi a e leng gore jaanong a setse MR D. SALESHANDO: On a point of elucidation. a dirisitswe, e bo e le gore Tona o ema fa, a tshosetsa The elucidation I wish to make was to maybe try to bao ba ba dirileng jalo. Ga se sepe se sesha. Ke dilo restate the position of the committee with regard to the tse e leng gore di ntse di buiwa, even in the past. Fa go request by the Ministry of Health. Like I said during diragetse jalo, re a itse gore Tona o tlaa tla fa, a re ke my presentation, it was our view that the likelihood is tlaa le surcharge ba le dirileng jaana, ke tlaa le tseela that, the Ministry of Health would be able to undertake dikgato. A mme dikgato tse di kileng tsa tsewa, ke eng all projects they intend to undertake with the available di sa dire gore ba e leng gore ba tla kwa morago ga ba resources. So it is not a question of cutting off some dire se e leng gore se ne se tseetswe dikgato. Go nna go projects that they were meant to undertake, but it is tswelela, madi a dirisiwa a seyo. Batho ba dirisa madi because the available funds within the Ministry, taking fela fa a seyong teng. Ke tsaya gore go tshwanetse gore into account all the commitments that the Ministry has go nne le tsela nngwe e e leng gore e tlaa itsa gore madi already made, allow the Ministry to still be able to a a seyong, a se ka a dirisiwa. There must be a trigger undertake all the projects. Thank you. mechanism e e leng gore is in place, e e tlaa supang gore tota fa jaanong we are in the red, ga go na gore MR TSOGWANE: Mme ke lebogela tlhaloso eo. Go o ka feta fa. Jaanong fa e le gore go tlaa nna le ka fa raya gore le Rre Mabiletsa gongwe o ka bo a e supile batho ba ka dirisang madi ba sena nao, e bo e le gore gore gongwe e ka bo e strengthen his alarmist position. jaanong go tliwa kwa Palamenteng ba tshosediwa, ba Letshogo le a neng a le bua gore ke foo komiti e ne ya bolelelwa gore re ya go le tseela dikgato. Nnyaa nna ga bona gore nnyaa, mme letshogo le ga se la boammaaruri, ke bone go re thusa ka sepe. Ga go thuse Palamente e go ka tswelelwa ga dirisiwa madi a a leng teng. Jaanong, ka sepe Tona gore o tle fa. re a leboga komiti, ke sone se e leng gore we recommend

114 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 1st April, 2010 SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (2008/2009) BILL, 2010 (NO.4 OF 2010) - Second Reading

The next supplementary o tlaa bo o tla le another accounting exactitudes. You always operate on what Ministry, another department, o tla o e threaten fa o re is called reasonableness. Then if we look into the ke ya go le tseela dikgato, le dirisitse madi a a seyong volume of accounting transactions in government, for over expenditure. The next time ka gore o tlaa bo they are voluminous. What we should be looking at o ntse o tla go kopa madi, o tlaa bo o tla go bolelela again as Parliament is the intent; was the intention Palamente gone fa gore, ke ya go ba tseela dikgato. good? Then satisfy ourselves as to how material Nnyaa, rona ga re re o ye go ba tseela dikgato, e bile has been the mistake or the errors that have been ga re bone go tlhokafala. Ka gore o tshwanetse gore o committed. nne le sengwe se e leng gore se tlaa itsa gore go nne jalo pele ga go diragala; pele ga o tla kwano o tlaa o I mean in all fairness, if you look into the percentage of re o ya go ba tseela dikgato. Jaanong seo e a bo e le go the errors that have happened at the percentage of the tshosetsa ba ba dirileng. Ke sone se kgantele ke neng total budget, in financial terms and accounting terms, ka supa fa ke re, nnyaa, ba dirile fela ka fa tsamaisong is immaterial because you can never find any system fa e le gore e a letla gore ba dire jalo, gore ba dirise that says at the end of the day, I have done everything madi e re kwa morago ba bo ba tla ba kopa gore, mme to the last cent. You can go through all our budgets re ne re dirisitse madi fale. E seng jalo go raya gore from independence to date, we have always been over tsamaiso ke yone e re tshwanetseng ra e baakanya. Bao or under and it happens all over. So, I commend the ga ba na molato o e leng gore re ka o supa fa ra tla ra ba Minister here for having cooperated with us. threaten fa, ra re re ya go ba tseela dikgato. I would want us to look into our Standing Orders that Ka mafoko a a kalo, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo, ke fetisa we should revisit them again. Once you have delegated kopo e ka meno a maleele ebile o tle o tlhalose gore madi your responsibility to a Committee to look into these a supplementary tsa December o a dirisitse eng; a projects Reports, I think we should shorten the time at which tse o neng o di kopile, tse o sa di dirang kwa Boteti. O tle we spend debating this. This is because we have spent go tlhalosa gore o tswa go a dirisa eng boemong jwa se o about three days looking into the Minister’s request. neng o se kopela madi ao. Ke a leboga. Then we satisfy on your behalf that the requests are genuine and that we should actually shorten up our MR GUMA (TATI EAST): Mr Speaker, I thank you debates in Parliament. Having said that Mr Speaker I very much. I stand to support the Honourable Minister’s then move that may the question be now put. request. I just wish to state some of the issues which most probably for the benefit of the Members because Question be now put and agreed to. I am a Member of the Committee. We did receive the Question put and agreed to. request, and we requested for information that we needed for the purpose of satisfying ourselves as to SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION whether this request is genuine. We requested for ledger (2008/2009) BILL, 2010 (NO.4 OF 2010) cards supporting information. We called Accounting Officers and requested for all the clarifications that Second Reading we needed. For instance, Ministry of Health as per ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND information provided, we found that as at the date when DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR TIBONE): we were examining them, they had a balance of about Thank you Mr Speaker. Section 119 (4) of the P246 million but they were looking for an additional Constitution provides that, “Where any Supplementary P12 million. We then said to them, that maybe, because Expenditure has been approved in a financial year by there is a provision for what is called a departmental a Resolution of the National Assembly in accordance transfer, can you not look into your accounts and see with the provisions of Sub-Section 3 of this Section, a whether you cannot transfer monies from these indent Supplementary Appropriation Bill shall be introduced because we do not see you spending these P246 million in the National Assembly not later than the end of the within a week. By agreement, they had to look into the financial next following, providing for the appropriation accounts again and found that maybe it is appropriate for of the sums so approved”. them to go and re-adjust their accounts. We did the same thing with the Office of the State President and other Mr Speaker, in respect of the 2008/2009 financial Ministries. We were satisfied with their explanations. year, total expenditure incurred in excess of the amount already appropriated by organisations of One thing that I need to point out to this Honourable expenditure in the Appropriation Act 2008/2009 House is that, there is nothing called a perfect of 2008 amounted to P3,229,081,601.00 under the accounting system and there is nothing called Consolidated Fund. A total of P3, 348,609,400 was

Hansard No 163 Part 4 115 Thursday 1st April, 2010 STATUTORY INSTRUMENT No. 50 of 2009: BOTSWANA- MOZAMBIQUE DOUBLE TAXATION AVOIDANCE AGREEMENT ORDER, 2009 - Motion approved by the Resolutions of the National Assembly HONOURABLE MEMBER: There is no as Supplementary Expenditure under Financial Papers Committee. No.1, 2 and 3 of 2008/2009 financial year. However, according to the financial accounts for 2008/2009 MR MATAMBO: So, it is finished? P3, 229,081,601.00 is the only amount expended HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Yes. in excess of the appropriations authorized by the Appropriation 2008/2009 Act, 2008. Therefore, in MR MATAMBO: Thank you very much. Thank you accordance with Section 119 (4) of the Constitution very much, Mr Speaker. I am assured it is finished and a Supplementary Appropriation Bill is required to it is now an Act. Mr Speaker, as regards the Statutory cover this expenditure which was approved by a Instrument I am afraid I have to say later date. Thank Resolution of the National Assembly but not included you Mr Speaker. in the Appropriation 2008/2009 Act, 2008. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT Mr Speaker, in passing the Supplementary PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Mr Speaker, as Appropriation (2008/2009) Bill, 2010, the Honourable regard to statutory instrument, I am afraid I have to House will be formerly ratifying its earlier approval of say later date. the Supplementary Estimates through Financial Papers MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Minister, No.1, 2 and 3 of 2008/2009 in accordance with the law. in other words, by that brief statement, that is what we I therefore move, that the Supplementary Appropriation could regard as your presentation? (2008/2009) Bill, 2010 be read for the second time. I so move Mr Speaker. Thank you. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Nnyaa, a re later date. MR GUMA (TATI EAST): Honourable Speaker, the subject matter under discussion in this House is similar MR SPEAKER: Oh! Sorry. I was in consultation with to the subject matter that we have been discussing. I my Clerks, I did not hear that. Thank you Honourable therefore move that let the question be now put. Minister. As that conclude the business on today’s Order Paper, maybe before we call upon the Honourable Question be now put and agreed to. Leader of the House to move a motion of adjournment. Question put and agreed to. On behalf of the substantive Speaker of this National Assembly who is away in Thailand on Parliamentary MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, in accordance business and indeed on behalf of me, my family and with Standing Order 83, “When the question has been the Acting Deputy Speaker Member of Parliament for agreed to, the Bill shall not be committed and the Kgatleng East, Honourable Members, I really need Speaker shall forthwith, without allowing amendment to thank you for the coordinated cooperation and or debate, put the question “That the Bill be read a coherence that you did accord us during the absence of third time and do pass”. the substantive Speaker. I have learnt a lot. I am indeed MR TIBONE: Mr Speaker, I move that the Bill be now competent that during the absence of my boss I read the third time and do pass. can hold the fort.

Question put and agreed to. Bagaetsho re le eleletsa gore a Modimo Rara ka esi jaaka le emelela le ya dikgaolong go ya go bona STATUTORY INSTRUMENT No. 50 of batlhophi le batsadi, ke ene a le etelele batsadi ba 2009: BOTSWANA- MOZAMBIQUE rona. A le babalele re tle re kopane gape morago ga DOUBLE TAXATION AVOIDANCE malatsi a Papolo ya Morena. AGREEMENT ORDER, 2009 MOTION Motion ADJOURNMENT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): I thank you very LEADER OF THE HOUSE (LT. GEN. MERAFHE) much Mr Speaker. I am not quite sure and I need Mr Speaker, I move that this House do now adjourn. assurance about this last Bill that we have reached the Question put and agreed to. final stage. In previous Bills I saw us going through the Committee Stage where you look at section by The House accordingly adjourned at 12:00 p.m. until section. Tuesday 6th April, 2010 at 2:30 p.m.

116 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Tuesday 6th April, 2010 class. However, as of now, only one unit is being used. My Ministry is aware that the unit is not fully utilised THE ASSEMBLY met at 2.30 p.m. as it is just over a year old.

(THE SPEAKER in the Chair) There is currently one teacher at the unit with a Diploma P R A Y E R S in Special Education, and is assisted by one teacher aide who is employed on a temporary basis. All the * * * * pupils who have been admitted at the school qualify for admission as they were assessed by a psychologist QUESTIONS FOR ANSWER before admission. There is only one psychologist who PUBLIC STANDPIPES INCREASE AT operates from the Primary Education Department in GUNOTSOGA, BEETSHA AND SEPOPA Francistown and it takes some time for the assessment VILLAGES to be done and the pupils to be recommended for admission. Thank you. MR B. ARONE (OKAVANGO): asked the Minister of Local Government when he intends to increase public YOUTH BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES AT standpipes in Gunotsoga, Beetsha, and Sepopa to THE MINISTRY OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY match the village and population growth, as currently, DURING 2009/2010 AND 2010/2011 FINANCIAL residents walk long distances to fetch water. YEARS

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked GOVERNMENT (MS B. TSHIRELETSO): the Minister of Trade and Industry to state: Madam Speaker, the design audit for interconnection i) Specific business opportunities deliberately of Seronga-Gudigwa water supply was completed in presented to the youth in her Ministry from the February 2010. The project was designed to provide Development and Recurrent budget allocations public standpipes at Gunotsoga and Beetsha villages, as coordinated by the Ministry’s Youth Principal in addition to the water reticulation in Seronga Officer; and Gudigwa villages. However, due to budgetary constraints, the construction of this project has been ii) The national value of such businesses during the deferred. Further, there are currently no plans to 2009/2010 Financial Year; provide standpipes at Sepopa village. Thank you. iii) Projected national value of such during the SPECIAL EDUCATION FACILITIES AT 2010/2011 Financial Year; KACHIKAU PRIMARY SCHOOL iv) The value at (ii) and (iii) above that specifically MR G. R. M. NSHIMWE (CHOBE): asked the benefited or is projected to benefit youth in the Minister of Local Government: Shoshong Constituency; and

i) If he is aware of the existence of the Special v) Efforts made to sensitise youth on these Education facilities at Kachikau Primary School opportunities. and whether these facilities are adequately utilised; ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TRADE AND ii) To state the number of teachers at the school and INDUSTRY (MR MOTOWANE): Madam Speaker, their qualifications; and my Ministry does not have specific youth business opportunities under Development and Recurrent budget iii) If all pupils admitted at the school qualify to have allocations. However, it has disbursed P100 million been admitted there. from the Alcohol Levy to the Ministry of Youth, Sports ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL and Culture from which P30 million will be used to GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Madam capitalise the Youth Development Fund. Government Speaker, I am aware of the existence of a Special has also committed 45 percent of all revenues collected Education Unit at Kachikau Primary School which from the Alcohol Levy to be provided to the Department started operating in January 2009 to cater for pupils of Youth to continue funding youth projects. These with mental retardation. The unit consists of two funds are expected to assist all youth countrywide who classrooms with a maximum capacity of fifteen pupils apply for financial assistance to start business projects, each, and currently has an enrolment of fifteen pupils, Shoshong inclusive. The Ministry of Youth, Sport and thus making it approximately seven (7) pupils per Culture would, however, be in a better position to

Hansard No 163 Part 4 117 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

provide information on youth projects that have been MR REATILE: Afternoon Madam Speaker. Ke ne ke funded for the Shoshong Constituency. re Motlotlegi Tona, re a tlhaloganya gore sengwe le sengwe se dirwa ke ba University. Mme potso e ne e re, In addition, a total of P2,375,185.00 has been disbursed “Ke eng le sa bone go le maleba gore, jaanong batho for prevention of alcohol abuse programmes for the ba simolole to register online”? Jaaka gompieno o youth as follows; rotloetsa e-medicine, mme o ntse o le kwa Technology i) P82,000 to Goga Masigo Association of Arts; le mafelo mangwe. Jaanong ke eng kwa University go ka seke go dirwe jalo? ii) P2,290,000 to the Department of Public Health for youth and alcohol campaign activities in ten MS VENSON-MOITOI: Gore ke eng go ka se ke (10) Districts; and go dirwe jalo, gongwe ga ke ye go kgona go araba. E rile maloba fa go tlhakatlhakanye, ka ya go kopana le iii) P3,185.00 to Ministry of Education and Skills bagogi ba University. Rre Bojosi o ne a seyo, mme ke Development for prevention of the intake and ne ka kopana le Honourable Dr Saleshando. Mme ba abuse of alcohol in schools. ntlhalosetsa gore, thulaganyo ba ne ba e dirile jaaka le e bonye... During the 2009/2010 financial year, my Ministry procured goods and services worth about P55,000 from HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable ke ofe? eight (8) youth companies. Items procured included stationery, pictures and services of youth disk jockeys MS VENSON-MOITOI: Ke ne ke ka gakolola fela ka (DJs) for consumer outreach programmes. bokhutshwane gore, kana jaaka le dirile, le a bona le lona gore go tsositse lesukasuka. Ba ntsholofetsa gore Madam Speaker, BEDIA specifically hires youth to ba tla baakanya Rraetsho. Ke dumela gore go baakanya assist potential buyers, exhibitors who have come to moo go tla tsenya le tsone computers mo teng. Rona re benchmark, assist in facilitating business matching ka ba gakolola fela. processes and data capturing and analysis during its annual Global Expo. A total of P138,010.00 was used MR MABILETSA: Minister, did they indicate the in paying twenty-six (26) young people who were timeframe within which they would have remedied the hired during the 2009 Expo. situation?

Madam Speaker, my Ministry in collaboration with the MS VENSON-MOITOI: Ke baakanye phoso e ke e other stakeholders, holds workshops and seminars, such dirileng pele, gatwe ke rile Honourable Saleshando. Ke as those alluded to in my response to the Honourable ne ke re ke a re, Dr Mme Saleshando kwa University; Member’s Parliamentary Question Number 239 on 12th Professor... February, 2010. My Ministry also participates in radio MADAM SPEAKER (DR NASHA): Nnyaa, o buile programmes to sensitise youth on these opportunities. jalo. I do not know what you are correcting. I thank you Madam Speaker. MS VENSON-MOITOI: I thought for the record. Ga INTRODUCTION OF ONLINE APPLICATION ba mpha timeframe Rraetsho, mme ke solofela gore AND AUTOMATED REGISTRATION AT THE intake e e tlang, go tla seke go nne le lesukasuka le re UNIVERSITY OF BOTSWANA le boneng maloba. Ke lebogile Rraetsho.

MR B. ARONE (OKAVANGO): asked the Minister of YOUTH BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES AT Education and Skills Development whether in view of THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE DURING the near-stampede and winding queues at the University 2009/2010 AND 2010/2011 FINANCIAL YEARS of Botswana during application for admissions and registration periods, she will consider introducing MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked online application and automated registration. the Minister of Agriculture to state:

MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS i) Specific business opportunities deliberately DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): presented to the youth in his Ministry from the Madam Speaker, admissions and registration of Development and Recurrent budget allocations students at the University of Botswana is an internal as coordinated by the Ministry’s Principal Youth administrative issue handled by the University. The Officer; Ministry only comes in to advise especially when the matter has the potential to escalate into public concern ii) The national value of such businesses during the as recently happened. Thank you. 2009/2010 Financial Year;

118 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

iii) Projected national value of such during the and the North Education Regional Offices. The fifth 2010/2011 Financial Year; Educational Psychologist has recently been appointed and will resume work on the 12th April 2010. iv) The value at (ii) and (iii) above that specifically benefited or is projected to benefit youth in the Madam Speaker, recruitment of the sixth Educational Shoshong Constituency; and Psychologist is also on-going. Resource permitting, my aim is to have at least 1 Educational Psychologist in v) Efforts made to sensitise youth on these each region in particular to advise teachers on children opportunities. with Special Educational Needs (SEN). Thank you.

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (MR YOUTH BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES AT MOLEBATSI): Madam Speaker, my Ministry has no THE MINISTRY OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT specific business opportunities deliberately presented DURING THE 2009/2010 AND 2010/2011 to the youth from either the Development or Recurrent FINANCIAL YEARS budget allocations. However, assistance in the form of technical advice is rendered to existing businesses MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked and prospective businesses that youth intend to set up, the Minister of Local Government to state: using the existing funding mechanisms such as CEDA Young Farmers Fund and the Youth Development i) Specific business opportunities deliberately Fund, which are managed by CEDA and the Ministry presented to the youth in his Ministry from the of Youth, Sport and Culture respectively. Development and Recurrent budget allocations as coordinated by the Ministry’s Youth Principal As I have already indicated, my Ministry has no specific Officer; budget, hence it would be difficult to compute both the ii) The national value of such businesses during the national value for these projects for the year 2009/2010 2009/2010 Financial Year; as well as project the likely value for 2010/2011. iii) Projected national value of such during the Notwithstanding my explanation, my Ministry 2010/2011 Financial Year; conducted presentations at Otse and Bonwapitse villages to sensitise youth on business opportunities in iv) The value at (ii) and (iii) above that specifically the agriculture sector at the request of the Honourable benefited or is projected to benefit youth in the Member of Parliament for Shoshong. In addition, Shoshong Constituency; and programmes such as Tsa Temothuo (TV), Molemi v) Efforts made to sensitise youth on these Ithute, Breadbasket, pamphlets, newsletters (Iketleetse opportunities. and Agrinews) are used to sensitise youth on these opportunities. I thank you ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Madam EMPLOYMENT OF EDUCATIONAL Speaker, my Ministry has deliberate efforts to present PSYCHOLOGISTS FOR STUDENTS AT business opportunities to the youth, and these include: VARIOUS LEVELS OF SCHOOLING • Artisans for maintenance of public facilities MR B. ARONE (OKAVANGO): asked the Minister • Landscaping and decorations of Education and Skills Development when she will consider employing Educational Psychologists to • Catering Services administer tests and advise on how to offer remedial • Provision of market stalls at subsidised prices, and education to students at various levels of their so forth schooling. Madam Speaker, all Districts have compiled skill ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND inventories of all youth. Depending on their various SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): skills and capabilities when opportunities arise, they Madam Speaker, the employment of Educational are given priority. Psychologists started in 2004 as part of the implementation of the Revised National Policy on The national value of such businesses during the Education of 1994. Currently, my Ministry has 5 2009/2010 financial year was P334,560.47. The Educational Psychologists, 2 are based at the Central projected national value of such value for the Resource Centre (CRC) for Special Education in 2010/2011 financial year is P400 000. With respect Tlokweng, while the other 2 are based at the South to the Shoshong Constituency such value of business

Hansard No 163 Part 4 119 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

opportunities for the financial years 2009/2010 and Ambassadors and High Commissioners are on the 2010/2011 is P15 000 and P25 000 respectively. same salary scale. However, two Ambassadors, who were Permanent Secretary and Deputy Permanent Madam Speaker, Youth are continuously sensitised on Secretary prior to their posting, are on F1 and F2 scales several opportunities through Kgotla meetings, Mini respectively. These officers retained these scales as Shows and exhibitions in Councils and we expect their personal right and not as their substantive scales. all Members of Parliament to do so. All Councils This has not created any supervisory problems as all play an advocacy role in providing opportunities Ambassadors/High Commissioners are accountable for Youth across Government bodies as well as the and responsible to the Permanent Secretary irrespective Private Sector initiative to promote Entrepreneurship of their remuneration levels. amongst the youth. My Ministry has partnered with Junior Achievement Botswana and provided 600 Out FAILURE TO IMPLEMENT COURT DECISION of School and vulnerable youth with Entrepreneurial BY BOTSWANA GOVERNMENT ON CENTRAL skills in 2009. Thank you Madam Speaker. KALAHARI GAME RESERVE

NUMBER OF DIRECTORS AT THE MR N. M. MODUBULE (LOBATSE): asked the DEPARTMENT OF TEACHING SERVICE Minister of Local Government whether it is true that MANAGEMENT AND THEIR RESPECTIVE the Botswana Government has not implemented the PROFESSIONS Court decision to supply Basarwa at Central Kalahari Game Reserve (CKGR) with water to-date. MR P. KHWAE (KGALAGADI NORTH): asked the Minister of Education and Skills Development to state:- MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MR MOKALAKE): Madam Speaker, the answer is no. i) the number of Directors that the Department of Let me take this opportunity to inform the Honourable Teaching Service Management has had since its Member that, contrary to the position he has taken, it is establishment; and not true that the High Court ever ordered the Botswana ii) how many from this number were former primary Government to supply the CKGR residents with water. school teachers, secondary school teachers or The correct position is as indicated at paragraph 2 of th from other professions. the High Court Order of 13 December, 2006 which provides thus, “The Government is not obliged to ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND restore the provision of such services to the Applicants SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): in the CKGR”. Madam Speaker, the Department of Teaching Service Management has had a total of seven directors since its The services being referred to here include the establishment in April 1976. provision of water. It is abundantly clear that the High Court never made such order. Out of this number, four officers were former secondary school teachers, while three were former public However, Madam Speaker, the Government allowed the administrators. I thank you Madam Speaker. CKGR residents to make arrangements to bring water inside the reserve for their subsistence needs. Even in AMBASSADORS AND HIGH COMMISSIONERS the light of this Court Order, the CKGR residents were SCALES never denied the opportunity to bring water into the CKGR. Thank you. MR P. KHWAE (KGALAGADI NORTH): asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International MR REATILE: Ke a leboga Motlotlegi Speaker. Cooperation to state:- Ke ne ke re Tona a tlhalose gore, mme fa e le gore bone baagi ba CKGR ba letlelelwa gore, ba bo ba ka i) the salary scale of Ambassadors and High itseela metsi ka kwa ntle ba a tsenya mo, ke eng ba sa Commissioners; and letlelelwe go gokela sediba se se mo teng ga CKGR ii) whether all Ambassadors and High Commissioners gore ba kgone go se nwa? are on the same salary scale; if not, why and has MR MOKALAKE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa this not created any supervisory problems. Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ga ke itse sepe ka go gokela MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND sediba se se mo CKGR fa e le gore ba na le sediba INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION (MR mo teng. Katlholo e rile, “The Government is not SKELEMANI): Madam Speaker, the salary scale of under obligation to restore such services”, go tewa Ambassadors and High Commissioners is E1. goromente. Ke a leboga.

120 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading MR MABILETSA: Minister, despite that ruling of development plans and requires concerted effort at the High Court, would you not consider it prudent for the national and regional levels to address energy humanitarian reasons to provide water to residents of shortages. Countries in the sub-region have been CKGR as a matter of social services, the same way experiencing severe shortages of power since 2007 due as the Government does anywhere else throughout the to lagging investment in new capacity. country? Madam Speaker, the Government of Botswana through MADAM SPEAKER: Minister, that is a different Botswana Power Corporation, is proceeding with the question, but please answer it if you have the answer. expansion of its power generation capacity to meet increased domestic demands and reduce dependence MR MOKALAKE: Ke tla e araba fela. Go lebega on imported power. In this regard, the Government has nako e e neng judgement e tswa, Bakaulengwe ba ne decided to implement the Morupule B Power Station ba itumeletse dikipara thata, e bile ba sa reetse gore Project. The project involves the development of a ga tweng. Jaanong rona ra re, katlholo e ne e re ga re new 600 megawatts power station at Morupule. The patelesege. Ke a leboga. project is being implemented on a fast track basis as TABLING OF PAPERS: the country is already facing serious power shortages as evidenced by frequent load shedding. The following papers were tabled: Madam Speaker, the Morupule B Power Station project STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 5 OF 2010: is estimated to cost US$1.7 billion (approximately WATER UTILITIES CORPORATION (SUPPLY P11.6 billion) and consists of the power station itself, OF WATER IN BULK) ORDER, 2010. distribution lines, substations and water pipeline. The funding structure is on a 50 per cent debt and 50 per (Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water Resources) cent equity basis, with Government injecting the 50 STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 6 OF 2010: per cent equity into the project and the Botswana WATER UTILITIES CORPORATION (SUPPLY Power Corporation, with the assistance of my Ministry, OF WATER) ORDER, 2010. sourcing the debt portion. Already, a sum of P1.5 billion was availed by the Government to Botswana Power (Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water Resources) Corporation in September, 2008 as upfront payment to the contractor and this forms part of the equity to be STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 15 of 2010: provided by government. WATER UTILITIES CORPORATION (SUPPLY OF WATER) ORDER, 2010. Madam Speaker, Botswana Power Corporation has secured a loan for an amount of US$ 825 million (Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water Resources) (approximately P5.6 billion) from a consortium MORUPULE B POWER STATION consisting of Standard Bank and Industrial and PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN Commercial Bank of China (ICBC) to finance part AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 of the cost of the project. The loan is guaranteed by OF 2010) the Government of Botswana and the World Bank has provided Partial Credit Guarantee. Second Reading Madam Speaker, I now propose that the Government MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT raise a loan from the World Bank amounting to PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): I thank you Madam US$136.4 million (equivalent of P931 million at the Speaker and a warm welcome back. time of preparation of the Bill) for part financing the project. The proposed World Bank Loan will finance the Madam Speaker, I have the honour to present to this purchase and installation of three main transformers, Honourable House for consideration, the “Morupule B transmission line from Morupule B to Phokoje and a Power Station Project (World Bank) Loan Authorization water pipeline from the new Paje/Mmashoro wellfield Bill, 2010,” Bill (No.2 of 2010) which provides for to the project site. part funding for the project. The terms of the World Bank Loan are as follows: Madam Speaker, Botswana like several other countries in the sub-region relies on imported electricity. The a) Repayment period - 30 years, deepening energy crisis across the Southern Africa Sub-region is a major impediment to Botswana’s b) Grace period - four years,

Hansard No 163 Part 4 121 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading c) Interest rate - liable plus 40 basis points, Ke amogela kopo ya ga Tona. Ke e amogela jaana ke batla gore, ke mo thuse mo kgannyeng e a e tshotseng d) Front entry - 0.25 per cent. e gore, a e nne kgang e e tlaa reng ka moso, Batswana The London Interbank offer rate liable is currently le bone ba e lebogele jaaka le rona re le lebogela. Ka 0.39 per cent. My Ministry has carried out an analysis go akola ditlamelo tse e leng gore re a go di ntsha of the terms of the loan and has concluded that they are gompieno ka loan e gore Batswana ba tle ba di akole. affordable. Ke supe jalo gore, o ka re Tona re tshwanetse ra ema ka Madam Speaker, I therefore move that the Morupule dinao, ra bona gore tota fa re ntse re lekela Batswana ka B Power Station Project (World Bank) (Loan fa ntlheng ya motlakase go ba solegela molemo. Ke bua Authorisation) Bill, 2010 (No. 2 of 2010) be read the jaana ka gore, dilo di dintsi fa go buiwa ka motlakase, second time. Thank you Madam Speaker. tse letsatsi leno re tshwanetseng ra di lebelela, jaaka dilo tse di tshwanang le dikgwebo jaana. Maloba re ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH (MR sa tswa go fetisa fa Molao Kakanyetso o mongwe, o MATLHABAPHIRI): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa o neng o bua ka go gweba le mafatshe a mangwe, bo Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mma re leboge Tona thata trade and investment. O ka re Tona le fa re tsweletse gore, a bo a re beile Molao kakanyetso o pele, wa ka go nna re ntse re leka jaana, re kopa madi re leka kadimo ya madi a go atolosa ditirelo tsa motlakase kwa gore re atolose motlakase o, ka re lebile thata domestic Morupule. Ke kgang e re e tlhokang thata re le lefatshe use, ga re a leba thata mo dilong tse di tshwanang le la Botswana. Jaaka re lebile gore mo malatsing ano, re dikgwebo. Ka gore, boradikgwebo ba a sokola, rates mo tlhaelong e tona ya motlakase. Re lebile gore kwa tsa bone di santse di tshwana fela le tse e leng gore ke re ntseng re ya teng, re nna re re, “re thuseng foo”, le tsa batho ba e leng gore ba itsenyetsa ka bobone. Ke bone ba mo mathateng a a tshwanang le a rona. A go re golo mo go tshwanetse gore go lebelelwe. E bile re lebegang gore, e tlaa re mo lebakeng le le khutshwane, le lefatshe le e leng gore, gompieno ga re kgone go ba bo ba ntse ba fokotsa selekanyo sa motlakase o ba ngoka bagwebi ka selekanyo se e leng gore re ne re o re o neelang, kana o re o rekang mo go bone. Mo se eleditse. Ke dingwe dilo tsa gore fa re ntse re kopa jaanong go tlaa bong go re direla mathata a matona a jaana re sokola, re nne re lebe gore a mme gone re go batlang gore, re le lefatshe le le bophara bo kana, atolosa tsa kgwebo, re solegela tsa kgwebo molemo. re ikemele. Go na le bangwe ba e rileng ba ntse ba nkgankgiwa, ba supa fa e le gore, ba ka re sekegela Batho ba ba tshwanang le ba temo-thuo, e re lebogang tsebe gore ba adime lefatshe la Botswana madi a go nna thata gore, e emetswe ka dinao ... jalo, a go atolosa ditirelo tseo. Go bo go raya fela gore MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND re duduetse, re eme Tona nokeng ba re ka mo emang WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): On a nokeng. A tle a tswelele le kgang eo, ka jaana seemo se point of clarification Madam Speaker. Mokaulengwe o a tlhobaetsa. Re lebile gape gore mo bogautshwaneng, ne a oma kgang ya gore, mma ke bue Sekgoa se a neng Goromente o wa ga Domkrag o tsere tshwetso ya gore, a se bua, a re, ‘rates di nne di lebelelwe tsa kgwebo.’ e re mo lebakeng le le khutshwane le le tlang, e bo e Ga ke itse gore fa a re go lebelelwa, o raya jang? Ke le gore jaanong Batswana fa ba ntse ba eletsa gore ba kopa gore Mokaulengwe o ka itlhalosa. gokelele motlakase mo matlong a bone, e bo e le gore ba ka akanyetswa go fokoletswa ditlhwatlhwa jaaka go MR TSOGWANE: Ke ne ke re gongwe Tona instead ikaeletswe. Jaanong fa e le gore seemo seo se a go nna ya gore ke tlhalose, o ne a ka leka gore a re tlhalosetse. teng, kana go raya gore, Batswana ba le bantsi ba a Gongwe o na le lesedi lengwe le le pharologanyo le se go gwetlhega gore, jaanong ba thakgise motlakase o o e leng gore, batho ba lela ka sone. Ke lebile jalo gore, mo malwapeng a bone le mo ditirelong tsa bone ka go batho ba ka bontsi ba supa fa ba sena dipharologanyo fa farologana. Jaanong go tlhokagala thata gore mme ka go tsenwa mo go tsa madirelo le metlakase e. Tota kana lebaka leo, e bo e le gore mme ditirelo kwa motlakase go a lebelelwa gore ba nne kwa tlase, ba kgone gore, o fitlhwang teng gone di atolositswe. dikgwebo tsa bone di tswelele. Fa e le gore gongwe ga go a nna jalo, Tona gongwe o ka tlhalosa a supa gore, Ke sone se ka bokhutshwane jo bo kalo, ke reng ke ne mme kwa madirelong re kwa tlase ka the rates, kana ke ema ka a le kalo go ema Tona nokeng. Ke a leboga. re rotloetsa madirelo ka nngwe tsela ka motlakase o MR TSOGWANE (BOTETI NORTH): Ke a leboga e leng gore is affordable. Ke a itse gore maloba re sa Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mma pele ke tswa go bua ka 5 per cent fa re bua ka domestic use le go amogele go tswa kwa mafatsheng a a tsididi. Re ka go akanyetsa batho ka ditsela tse di farologanyeng. leboge gore o bo o gorogile fano.

122 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading Se sengwe gape se ke batlang go se supa, jaaka ke ne ke iphitlhileng, tse e leng gore rona ga re itse gore a mme santse ke re ke bua ka agriculture...ee, tlhalosa Tona... di a bo di lebeletswe. Re na le molao mo lefatsheng le o o bidiwang Environmental Impact Assessment HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... (EIA), o e leng gore ke tsamaiso ya ga Goromente MR TSOGWANE: Ke a leboga ka gore go ka nna go bona gore sengwe le sengwe se e leng gore, re a molemo. Go ka thusa Batswana ba le bantsi gore Tona go se dira ka bokete jo bo riling, se a go ama batho gongwe a tlhalose, ka gore ga se ene yo o yang go ka tsela e e ntseng jang. Ga re itse gore ntlo yone eo araba ka fa ba ntseng ba lekela bagwebi ka teng. Ke ditshenyegelo tsa yone a Tona o di lebeletse kana o a a leboga. go feta a batla madi golo gongwe gape kana di mo teng ga loans tseo. MADAM SPEAKER: Rraetsho, Tona o na le seabe sa gore o tla ema a sena go le reetsa. Nna fa fatshe, o O ne a bua ka go goga metsi le pipelines kwa metseng feditse gakere? e e kgakala, e e yang go ama batho ka ditsela tse dintsi. Re na le batho ba e leng gore ba a lela mo nakong MR TSOGWANE: Ga ke a fetsa. ya gompieno fa go nna le ditlhabololo. Ba lela ka compensations tse di kwa tlase, kana phimolo dikeledi MADAM SPEAKER: Jaanong o ne o dira eng? mo dingweng tse di amegang. Ke dilo tse e leng gore MR TSOGWANE: Nnyaa, nna ke ne ke re Tona a EIA e tshwanetse gore fa e ntse jaana, project e le tlhalose. kana, e nne sengwe se re se bonang se tlotlometse re ka kgona go se supa. Ra supa gore mme ke e, e a bonala MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Tsogwane, costs tsa yone ke tse, le go rerisana le batho go teng. tswelela o fetse. Ga go tsoge ka moso go re tsosetsa medumo go diya project. Fa e le gore ga seka go dumalanwe le batho ka MR TSOGWANE: Ke ne ke kopile clarification tsela e e leng gore EIA e tlaa bo e supile ka teng go a Madam Speaker, mo go Tona. go diya project. Re tlaa fetisa loan fa re bo re a go nna MADAM SPEAKER: O senya kgang. Tsweledisa dingwaga, kana dikgwedikgwedi re sa kgone go a go kgang ya gago. dira tiro e, ka gore re tlaa bo re tshwerwe ke EIA. Go sa kgone gore jaanong go supafale sentle gore, mme MR TSOGWANE: Jaanong mma ke fetele kwa go ya ba ba amegang ba a go amega ka tsela e e ntseng jang. agriculture. Re ntse re leka thata mo temo-thuong. O ka re balemi-barui ga go ise go goroge gore ba solegelwe Projects tse ke setse ke lebeletse, o ka re jaanong it is molemo ke motlakase. Jaaka re itse gore gompieno go a trend gore, EIA ga re supe fela sentle gore e bonale na le boranyane jwa go nosetsa le go dirisa motlakase go re itse gore mme go a go ama batho ka tsela e e ntseng pompa metsi mo didibeng. Ga go na le fa e le gope fa e jang. Tsone tse di a go diya go diragadiwa ga project, leng gore, re leka go bona gore a balemi-barui ba, re ka go bo go felela e le gore jaanong project e diegile, e ba rotloetsa ka nngwe tsela go ba folosetsa metlakase. nnile le cost overruns, le time overruns tse e leng gore Metlakase ya gompieno e santse e itebagantse le metse di ne di sa tlhokafale. Ke re dilo tse di ntseng jaana fela. E feta mo godimo mo e leng gore, farmers fa ba le Tona le fa re fetisa loan jaana nna di a ntshwenya. Ke bantsi, go ka bonwa gore ba ka thusiwa ka tsela e e ntseng dilo tse e leng gore di na le boleng, di ama project jang. Gongwe ba folosetswa le bone ga itebaganngwa, fela mo go tseneletseng. E bile le matshelo a batho a a ga bonwa gore re na le kwa e leng gore go balemi-barui amega. O sa tswa go bolela gore fa o setse o katolosa ba bantsi ba ba tlhokang motlakase. Re o gogele teng on jaana ga se gore go a go amega fa Morupule fela. Go a the basis ya gore, re o isa kwa temo-thuong, go leka go go nna le wellfields ko kae, tse e leng gore le tsone di a a go thusa batho. Ke dingwe dilo tse di saletseng kwa go epiwa, go a go bonwa mafelo. morago. E bile di a re tshwenya. Fa re ntse re tsweletse Maloba re ne re sa tswa go tshwenyega mo areas tse di ka go adima madi re anamisa motlakase le lefatshe le, tshwanang le Letlhakane fa go dirwa moepo. E le gore go a re tshwenya gore o bo o sa solegele dikgwebo tse ba tshwentswe thata ke gore didiba tsa bone di a kgala di tshwanang le bo temo-thuo molemo. Ke dingwe dilo ka ntateng ya didiba tse di neng di epiwa ke ba De Beers. tse di ka thusang. Ke dingwe dilo tse e leng gore di tlhokana le EIA. Pele fa ke wetsa ke supe gape gore, ke na le Ke ne ke sa batle go a kgakala, le go kgobera maikutlo, letshwenyego la gore re bo re adima madi jaana, mme Speaker o santse o tswa go goroga. Re go gorositse go na le some hidden costs. Tse re sa itseng gore mme sentle, ke tle ke eme ke ise ke tswe mo tseleng. Ke a tsone re di lebelela ka tsela e e ntseng jang. Tse di leboga.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 123 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading MADAM SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members, MR MOATLHODI: ... (Tape inaudible due to just a minute. Ke ne ke re ke tlhalose gore, kana tota technical problems)... re itse gore mong wa madi a, ke Tona wa tsa Meepo le Kgotetso. O na le tshwanelo ya gore, fa re ntse MADAM SPEAKER: Come to the Bill member. re tsamaile a bona gore mo ga se mo go ka emelang MR MOATLHODI: ... (Tape Inaudible due to gore ke tla re kgantele, a bo a ka ema fela a bo a batla technical problems)... go tlhalosa gone foo. Ka gore fa gongwe ka puo ya Setonota gatwe, “dilo dingwe di dujwa di santse MR MODUBULE: On a point of procedure Madam di le metsi”. Ke gore fela ke ne ke kgala Motlotlegi Speaker. Honourable Speaker, I take it that we have to Tsogwane gore jaanong, a iphe marapo a a bo a fetelele be recorded in the House as the proceedings go along, le kwa pele ka kwa. Ke gone fela mo ke neng ke go go but I am not very sure whether the Honourable Member kgalemelela. Rre Kedikilwe being the old horse in this is actually being recorded. I think it is not audible, we system understands perfectly well. cannot hear what he is saying. Is it okay? Thank you.

MR MOATLHODI (TONOTA SOUTH): Ke tsaya MADAM SPEAKER: Thank you. Honourable sebaka se Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, Modubule I had said if there is a problem they will fela jaaka e kile ya re moso wa gompieno o goroga let us know, they normally do. Now they have fixed it. kwa ofising ya gago e ntlentle, ka go raya kare Nna ke ne ke tsaya gore re tla tswelela until we... welcome back. Once more Madam, please welcome HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... back to Parliament. By the way disregard some of the robustious statements that were made about me and my MADAM SPEAKER: They have fixed it, yes. Deputy, regard that as illusions. Honourable Member you were talking procedure, were you not? Go mo lebaleng Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, gore gangwe le gape fa re batla go dira HONOURABLE MODUBULE: ...(Inaudible)... ditlhabololo mo lefatsheng le, re tswela kwa ntle re ya go adima madi. Go lebega gore go santse go le kgakala, MR MOATLHODI: Ke ne ke re o mmone, ke ene yo tsela e ya kadimo ya kwa ntle re santse re tlaa tswelela o neng a le robustious. Jaanong ke ne ke santse ke bua re e tsamaya. E re le mororo ka Setswana re re ga e ke ka Clause 2, le fa ke ne ke kopile gore ga re bue ka e imelwa ke dinaka e le tsa yone, re tshwanetse malatsi Clauses. Ke tshwenngwa ke ka fa metsi a madirelo a ano ka ntlha ya lebaka la the atrocity of the economic turang thata ka teng. Re dikile re batlile go latlhegelwa crunch, ra tlhokomela thata kadimo nngwe le nngwe e ke Nortex kwa Francistown, e e hirang batho ba le re e dirang. Re tlhokomele mola mongwe le mongwe 3000. Jaanong ke kopa Tona gore a madi a kokobele. which we sign for it gore, nnyaa kadimo eno e bobebe. We cannot afford to have the cost of water in this Re tshwanetse ra tlhokomela jaaka mongwe a kile a country as if we are importing water from the Islands rata go goroga kwa ntlheng e gore, madi a kadimo kana of Comoro. Jaanong ke a itse gore, re na le dilo tse ke madi a ka Setswana re reng, “lerotse la makotswa dintsi tse re di dirisang. Re tshwanetse ra tlhaloganya ga le na kgodu”, “kgomo ya mafisa re e gama re lebile bagaetsho gore, kana re batla go dira madi fa re dira tsela”. Madi a a tla ka merokotso. Re tshwanetse ra power station jaana. In order to make money somewhere lemoga gore, merokotso e mengwe nako nngwe e along the line we will be bound to lose money, mme nna kwa godimodimo thata e le bogale, mme dilo tse seo ke se re tshwanetseng re se tlhaloganye. tsotlhe re tshwanetse re di sekaseke. Ke dumela ka botlalo Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Ke a tlhaloganya Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente gore, boseyong jwa ga Tona, tsa Palamente gore, mo pakeng eno ga re bue ka the fa Tona a tshwerwe ke ditiro tse dingwe tsa puso o ka merits and the demerits of the Bill. Re bua ka the roma bana ba gagwe ba ya go saenela madi a a kadimo generalities of the Bill. Fela in the Bill go na le Clause a. Tona eventually... ga re ka ke ra ema re le ba babedi 2 e e buang ka metsi, gore kwa tirong ya mothale o, re mo Palamenteng bagaetsho. tlhokana le tiriso ya metsi ka bokete jo bo kwa godimo MADAM SPEAKER: Welcome back Honourable thata. Ke batla go ikuela mo go Tona yo o amegang wa Tshelang Masisi. metsi... (Tape inaudible due to technical problems)... MR MOATLHODI: Ke a leboga Motlotlegi MADAM SPEAKER: Continue, if they have a Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mme fa Tona problem they will let us know. a sena go nna a roma bana ba gagwe, it is important

124 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading that he verifies gore bana ba ka nnete ba ne ba dira tiro bosuleng a sa kake a nkgolola mo thaelong. Ke ne ke ka botswerere. Bodirelapuso jwa rona ka lebaka le le santse ke tlhalosa gore, re na le bo electrical engineers leele ba tsweletse ba dira tiro e ntle thata, ba saenela le bo mine engineers. Ka jalo, fa tiro e re e dira jaana, ditumalano le dikadimo mo boemong jwa boeteledipele ga se mo re ka reng a re boeleng kwa Japan kana kwa jwa lefatshe le. Ke leboga bodirela puso jwa rona go mafatsheng a mangwe, re ye go batla batho ba ba tlaa bo ba tsweletse ba dira tiro e ntle e. Ka lebaka la gore, tlang ba tsenya matsogo go bona gore tiro e, e a dirwa. bodirelapuso jwa rona fa re bo tshwantshanya le jwa Re na le bana ba teng, re tshwanetse ra iphophotha mafatshe mangwe a re ka a buang go sekwa, a re tle legetla, gore re sale re monela marulana pele, re ruta re utlwe go na le some allegations of kick backs, mo banna le basadi. Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo badireleng puso jwa rona ga re ise re ko re utlwalele dilo tsa Palamente, fa ke bua ka Batswana ba ba rutegileng tse. Ke gone ka mo ke ba phophothang legetla, e bile ke ba, ke batla go gatelela botlhokwa jwa gore tiro e e tle dumalana le Tona gore ga go phoso go roma bana. e etelelwe ke Batswana...

Turning now to the generation of power kwa Morupule B HONOURABLE MEMBER: Efe? Power Station, bagaetsho kana go botlhokwa, motlakase ga e sa tlhola e le luxury, ke selo sa botlhokwatlhokwa. MR MOATLHODI: Aa! Ga o itse gore re adimelang Ga go a bolo go nna botlhokwa gore re le lefatshe la madi? Re adimela madi go ya go dira eng? Kgang kgolo Botswana, re tshwanetse re iphetlhele motlakase wa Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke ne rona. Lebaka e le gore, Batswana ba re “mpha mpha e a ke re ke digela gore jaaka madi a goroga jaana, re ya go lapisa.” Tsala ya me e nngwe ya Motalaote ya re “mpha tlhotlhoma re dira tiro e kwa Morupule B Power Station. mpha e a lapisa motho o kgonwa ke sa ga mogatse”... Maikaelelo le kopo ya me ke gore a re boneng Batswana ba eteletse tiro e. I support the Bill, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: Go fa kae in the Bill gone moo? MADAM SPEAKER: May I take this opportunity to formally welcome Honourable T. W. Masisi, I am glad MR MOATLHODI: Nnyaa ke fa sekai sa tsala ya you are in good health. me ya Motalaote, mme ka jalo rona ka Setswana ra re, “lerotse la makotswa ga le na kgodu.” Bokete jwa MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND motlakase wa rona o tswa kwa mafatsheng a mangwe. WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Mma Mafatshe a busiwang ka dipolotiki, a e ka nnang ya ke go leboge Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, re ka letsatsi le lengwe ba utlwa gore lefatshe la rona mme ke bo ke simolole ka ntlha e ya ga Mokaulengwe la Botswana le tsweletse pele ka nama ya kgomo le Mopalamente yo o tlotlegang wa Tonota Borwa. ka ditswammung, ba re bolompegela, ba tswalela Maloba fa ke bega pego ya kgaoganyo ya madi fa pele metlakase ya bone, le mororo re ntse re e reka and God ga Palamente e e tlotlegang e, ka tlhalosa fa e le gore, forbid, ba seka ba tsamaya ba dira jalo. Ka jalo, go re setse re na le thulaganyo ya gore Batswana segolo botlhokwa thata thata gore tiro e e direge ka bofefo bogolo ba seemo sa bo technician, go ya kwa godimo ba jo re ka bo kgonang. Ke a itse, e bile ke dumela ka le masome a mane (40), re tlaa bo re ba isa kwa China. botlalo gore, motlakase o re o dirang re tshwanetse re Maikaelelo e le gore ba bo ba ntse ba ithuta ka dilo tse leke gotlhe mo re ka go kgonang go tla ka ditsompelo gore, e tle e nne bone ba ba tlileng go di tlhokomela tse di tlaa dirang gore ditlhwatlhwa tsa tiriso ya one fa di senyegile le di ise di senyege, ka sekgoa se di seka tsa kokonela tiro eno gore e seka ya tswelela. gotweng go dira service. Ke ne ke itheile ka re mafoko Gongwe ke tsamaela go digela Motlotlegi Motsamaisa a a ka bo a setse a gorogile kwa Bakaulengweng, a Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, lefatshe leno mo pakeng go ipaakanyetsa gore dilo tse re nne re di dire jang. e e fetileng, re rutile bo mine engineers, electrical Mafoko a mangwe ke tlaa bua ke a kalea ka gore ke engineers, ba teng... mo tseleng ya gore, ke ye kwa khuduthamageng mo dikakanyong tsa gore re ka nna ra dira jang, mme a e HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... leng a bophara one ke tla bua.

MR MOATLHODI: Kooteng kosha ya Sione ga o a e A ke tla kaleang ke a a tshwanang fa gotweng, mme kgora. Ga gona kosha fa. fa re tsaya matlo ka bongwe bongwe kana malwapa, re bo re tsaya dikgwebo. Ke re mme kana le gompieno re MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Member, come to ntse re farologanya malwapa a batho le dikgwebo. E le the law. gore mo dijarateng, mo gotweng domestic ka sekgoa, MR MOATLHODI: Intshwarele Motsamaisa ditlhwatlhwa di kwa tlase, mme le madirelo a a fa gare Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, o a bo a ntsenya mo a na le tlhwatlhwa ya one, madirelo a a kwa godimo le

Hansard No 163 Part 4 125 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading one a na le tlhwatlhwa ya one. Ke one mangwe a ke tla Ke jaaka le kgantele go ne go kaiwa gore, motlakase buang ke a kalea. Tse ditona tse di tshwanetseng gore re tlaa bo re simolola re isa kwa re tlaa bong re o Bakaulengwe ba di utlwisise ke gore, fela jaaka ba setse kgaoganya teng, o ya kae. Go fitlhelela re goroga kwa ba tswa go bolela, motlakase ga e sa tlhola e le se go bo Morupule wa bobedi, ke gone mo re ka kgonang go ka tweng ke wa bo makgorwane. Re a dumalana gore tsenya motse mongwe le mongwe. motlakase ga se mo go ka tweng jaanong go lebilwe bo makgorwane ba le bosi, ka gore o tlhokiwa ke mongwe MR G. SALESHANDO: On a point of clarification. le mongwe. Re ka ipotsa dipotso Bakaulengwe gore, Ke ne ke re Rre o a utlwala tota. Mokaulengwe yo fa gompieno jaana o tlhaela, re bile re o komakana, ba o tlotlegang, mme ke eng re sa tlhamalale fela re re, bangwe e ya re letsatsi le lengwe o bo o seyo, boemong kana jaaka fa Mokaulengwe yo o tlotlegang Tsogwane jwa gore re bo re lwela gore re o gokele gore batho ba a bua, ke a bona 75 per cent ya motse wa Rakops, ga tle ba o dirise, le fa le one o santse o le kwa godimo mo gona fa motlakase o ka tsenang teng. Lehuma la teng go o feng bone batho, fa o tlhaela jaana go bo gotwe re ke le le supang fela gore, ga gona fa motlakase o ka o ise kwa masimo re o ise kwa merakeng, kana kae fela. tsenang teng, le ene o a itse. Potso ke gore fa o tlhaela go santse go ntse jaaka go ntse MADAM SPEAKER: Ke eo tlhaloso Tona jaana, re tlile go o kgaoganya jang gore o ye masimo, Kedikilwe. mo ditoropong, mo madirelong, le kwa mines kwa re o dirisang teng thata. Kgang e tona e santse e le yone e. MR KEDIKILWE: Nnyaa, eo e ama Mokaulengwe yo a neng a akgela ka yone, ke tsaya gore ga e ame nna. MR TSOGWANE: On a point of clarification. Ke a Mme, nngwe ya dintlha tse ditona Bakaulengwe ke leboga Tona. Ke boammaruri o a tlhaela. Fa o tlhaela gore, e re ntswa rotlhe re eletsa gore dikgwebo tsotlhe jaana, ka Sekgoa go na le ba ba a tleng ba re, gongwe di bone motlakase, o o tlhwatlhwa e e utlwalang kwa go komakana tlhogwana ya ntsi. Fa o feta metse masimong, kwa merakeng le kwa dipolaseng, rotlhe re e mengwe jaana o kaletse fa godimo, mme o ntse o eletsa gore ngwaga mongwe re ka fitlha koo. Kgang ke tlhaela, a mme tota go a bo go supa gore o a tlhaela? gore, kadimo e gompieno re e batlang ya motlakase, Ka gore fa o ne o tlhaela, re ka bo re re o o fetang fela bone ba bo African Development Bank, bo World Bank jaana ka mafelo a mangwe le a mangwe, re bo re bona ba re beile leitlho gore, naare madi a a kadimo a tlile go gore ba a komakana ka gore o a bo o ntse o le teng e tswa kae? Ba re beile lengole la gore Botswana Power ntse e le one oo. Corporation (BPC) e tshwanetse gore e tseye dikgato MR KEDIKILWE: Motlakase o a tlhaela. Re tsa gore, e bone gore madi a ba tlile go a busa ka seemo tshwanetse re thusanye gore go tlhaelwa metse efe, ga se se ntseng jang. go tlhaelwe efe. Kana gompieno jaana, ke na le dikwalo Go gabedi, re tshwanetse gore go sekasekwe gore tse di tswang kwa Bakaulengweng, le nna ke eletsa metswedi ya go duela madi a, e tswa kae. A e tswa mo gore ke ka isa motlakase kwa bo Gunotsoga, mme o a go BPC yotlhe, fa e tswa mo go BPC yotlhe, go a re ba tlola le metse e mengwe. Bo Makunda, Ntogwe le tlama gore re lebe dikoketso. Kana e seng jalo re leba Khonkhwa motlakase o ka bo o sa tlole o tsena koo. Ke kwa Mapalamenteng, gore batho ba seka ba kokonelwa gore fa e le gore metse yotlhe e e tlolwang ke motlakase ke motlakase mo go kalokalo. A madi a tswe, a a tlaa re tsenya motlakase teng, go tlaa bo go ntse go oketsa bong a thusa gore, motlakase o seka wa kokonela tlhaelo ya motlakase. O tshwanetse gore o lebe golo batho. Fa madi ao a tswa kana a raya gore fa e le gore gongwe fela jaaka gompieno kwa metseng e le mentsi, madi a lona ga a oketsega, re bo re fokotsa tse dingwe kwa kgaolong ya Mmadinare, go sena metsi, mme tsa ditlhabololo, gore re thuse ka subsidy ya motlakase metsi a tla kwano. Jaanong, dikgang tse re tshela re di le metsi. Ke kgang fela e e motlhofo. Go tswa mo go bua. Kana ga ke bue jaaka e kete ke buelela kgaolo ya rona Botlotlegi jo bo fano, gore tota re itlhophela eng me, yone ke ya me. Mme le kwa Tswapong, metsi a mo go tsoo pedi tse di botlhoko. ba tlola gone kwa a tla kwano. A mono, mme ga gona metsi kwa Lerala, Lekungwane, Mokobeng jalo jalo. HONOURABLE MEMBER: E motlhofo eo. Dikgang tse di tshwana fela Bakaulengwe. MR KEDIKILWE: Ee, e motlhofo. E motlhofo ka gore Kgang e re e buang, fa e le gore go ka bo go dirwa mo fa e le gore madi ke P20, kana o tshotse P100, fa o tsena motlakaseng le mo metsing, ee, re ka dumalana gore mo supermarket, o itlhophela gore ka P100 yo o nang a metsi a ye kwa Mokungwane le Majwaneng, re bo nae o reka eng, ga o reke eng. Go motlhofo fela go le re fokotsa metsi a a mo Gaborone. Dikgang tse di a kalo ka e bile bagolo dilo tse ba di tlhaloganya botoka. retela, mme re tshela re di bua le Bakaulengwe gone fa Ke bone fela ba ba ka itlhophelang gore mme, kwa ntle gore, tota ga se ka bomo, go na le metse e e tlolwang. ga go oketsa madi re sa itse gore a tlaa bo a tswa kae,

126 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading ke gore o bo o tsaya ditshwetso. Fela jaaka re dira kwa HONOURABLE MEMBER: Wa Kgomoro o malwapeng a rona gore mo baneng, yole o mo rekela tsamaile. eng, yo ga o mo rekele eng. A o ka kgona go ba rekela diteki, dihutshe uniforms, or pairs tsa ditlhako di le nne MR KEDIKILWE: Ee, re araba fela gore Kgomoro ene botlhe. Fa e le gore o tshotshe P100, o tshwanetse gore o mme o teng. Kgomoro o teng, kwa re gogang metsi teng itlhophele gore nnyaa, mme yole o ka re ga di ise di onale re a tlisa kwano. Ke gone kwa Kgomoro a leng teng. thata. Ke sone seemo se re mo go sone gompieno. Kgang ya phimolo keledi kana ga e bewe ke Water Jaanong fa gotwe metsi a turu kana go araba potso Utilities Corporation, ga e dirwe ke ba Power ya gore ditirelo tsa metsi, go a pompa, go a goga Corporation. Go na le makgotla a a sekasekang kwa dikgatlhong gore a goroge mo Gaborone, gore golo fa re fetang teng fa, kana lefatshe le gone Kanye, Lobatse, Goodhope, Molapowabojang le kwa fa pipeline e tlaa bong e feta teng, batho ba teng, o Tswapong, mongwe o tshwanetse gore a duele. Ga go dirile ditlhabololo di le kae, o tshwanetswe ke phimolo duele Water Utilities Corporation, kana ga go duele dikeledi e e kae. Power Corporation mo motlakaseng, go duela badirisa Jaanong a e seka ya re rona ba re ikopelang fela go madi a. Fa gotwe puso le yone e duele ee, puso e ka feta foo, go dirilwe yone Environmental Impact, ba ba duela fa metswedi e mengwe e le teng. Fa metswedi e sekasekang ba sekaseka ka fa ba sekasekang ka teng, mengwe e seyo, re tshwanetse gore re lebe golo gongwe go bo go tsewa gore rona ba Water Utilities le ba Power e seng jalo, kana mo Batswaneng ba le ba emetseng Corporation ke rona ba re duelang phimolo dikeledi e gore re dira sebopego se se ntseng jaana. Jaaka ke setse e kwa tlase. Go na le bomaitsaanape ba go nna jalo. ke tswa go bua, re seka ra ba bolaisa mokgweleo wa Rona boitsaanape jwa rona ke go rekisa motlakase ka dituelo. Fa e le gore madi a santse a sa oketsega, re bo ditlhwatlhwa tse di sa bolaeng batho. Re tlhomamisa re bona gore re fokotsa ditsela le dikole tse re neng re gore, Power Corporation, le Water Utilities ba a tshela ka di aga, sewerage system e re neng re ka e dira, gore ka gore e seng jalo, ba tlaa phutlhama re bo re boela re tle re kgone gore motlakase le metsi di seka tsa tura. gape kwa re neng re ntse re le teng pele. Ke yone kgang e re mo go yone gompieno. Re tlhomamisa gore motlakase, tota ke arabile eo ya Metsi a turu. Ee, re tshwanetse gore re tlhokomele gore gore ga se wa bo makgorwane. Mme e seng wa bo di dirisiwa tsa one tse di tshwanang le jaaka meters, fa e makgorwane fela, mongwe ene o tshwanetse gore a le fa di dirisiwang teng, di siame. One ka bo one, gore re duele. Re tshwanetse gore re itlhophele re le tshaba, e tle re duelele gore a nne a pompiwe, re tshwanetse gore bile re le boemedi jwa Botswana. Ke a leboga. re duele madi a a utlwalang. Gape le gore didirisiwa tse di seka tsa tloga tsa wa ka mpa ya sebete. Jaaka MR NSHIMWE (CHOBE): Thank you Madam gompieno Bakaulengwe ba ba gaufi le rona ka fa, ba Speaker. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, mo sebopegong seo go ipaya bobi matlhong jwa gore, kgang e tlhamaletse. Mmang fela ke supe le nna gore motlakase kwa go bone o cheap. Jaanong e le gore ke ema Tona nokeng. Ke dumalana le kopo ya gagwe dipaakanyetso tsa dipitsa tse di o gwetlhang, tse di o ya kadimo ya madi a Morupule B Power Station. Ke dirang, di na le go onala. Di na le gore di baakanngwe dumalana le ene ke re go nne jalo, Bill e e tle e fete di bewe mo seemong se se siameng. Ke solofela gore gore a adime madi a. Madam Speaker, mmang fela ke re tlaa tlhalefa ka silo. Re itlhophela gore tota fa e le re le nna ke gatelele mafoko a a reng, madi a tlaa tla. go wa ga ditshipi tse, ka gore di tshwanetse gore di Mathata a me ke gore, a tswa kwa mafatsheng a e leng onale, le go nna re di baakanya, re beele madi ka fa gore mangwe a one, jaaka mo pegong ya ga Tona, a re thoko, re monele marulana pele. Le gore re bo re re apesitse kobo ka letshoba. Mafatshe one a bo China a e nnyaa, di santse di siame fela kana, re di etse dikoloi leng gore gompieno ke bone ba ba gogoropang projects tsa rona tse re tlhokang gore dinako tse tsotlhe, re bo re tsa lefatshe la rona, tsotlhe fela di tsewa ke bone. Beng ntse re bona gore we service them ka Sekgoa. Ke tsone ba lefatshe le bone e nna babogedi fela ba itsholelo ya dikgwetlho tse re kopang natso. bone. Gompieno jaaka re ya go adima madi jaana, re ntse re supa gore a mangwe a tlaa tswa gone kwa bo Fa gotwe o turu, ee, a tshwanetse go nna turu ka gore China kwa. ga a ka ke a tsena kwa Kanye mongwe a sa duela, mongwe o tshwanetse gore a duele. Fa gotwe ga re MR MODUBULE: On a point of clarification. Ke tseye metsi kwa Kgomoro, ee, Kgomoro wa rona ne ke re ke botse Motlotlegi gore, a madi a a buang ke kwa Dikgatlhong le Letsibogo ka gore fa o tsaya ka one a maChina, maChina a, ga ba fiwe tetla ke ene Letsibogo o bo o tsaya le Kanye, ... goromente wa Domkrag?

Hansard No 163 Part 4 127 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading MR NSHIMWE: Thank you Madam Speaker, go ntse Capacity e re buang ka yone e fiwa ke yo o tshwereng fela jalo. Ba fiwa tetla ke goromente wa ga Domkrag. dithata. Ke ene yo e leng gore, he/she is supposed to Kana ke sone se re tshwanetseng gore, fa re ntse re provide it, a e neele yo o e tlhokang, yo e mo tshwanetseng. bewa dikopo jaana tsa go adima madi, re ba kgalemele. Ke sone se re se buang. Jaanong, ga le dire jalo. Mo ke Re kgalemele maDomkrag a gore, madi a fa a tla, a lefoko fela la gore maBCP tlang ka mongwe. seka a neelwa maChina fela, Batswana ba le teng. Fa e le gore Batswana mo kitsong ya bone ya go dira ditiro Jaanong Rraetsho, o ntse o bua ka gore motlakase o tsa mofuta o o tshwanang le o, e santse e le kwa tlase, a tura. Ee, motlakase o a tura re a o bona. Boturu jwa go mo maruding a goromente wa Domkrag Comrade motlakase one o ke gore, mo dingwageng tse tsotlhe Modubule gore, a bone gore Batswana ba fiwa kitso e fela tsa boipuso jwa rona, motlakase wa rona kana ke e tshwanetseng, e e leng yone. Ya gore fa dilo tse tsa o e leng gore o … itsholelo di ntse di dirwa ba fitlhelwe le bone ba na le MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Member for seabe se se golo mo go yone. Malatswai and Honourable Member for Mahalapye E seng gore fa madi a tla a tshwana le one a, e bo e East, can you just…. Order! Order! Honourable le gore ba tlaa bo ba utlwa Palamente ya bone, ya Tshireletso, what is wrong? Honourable Tshekedi Mapalamente a ba a tlhophileng go sena leChina lepe Khama, o dirile eng Mopalamente wa Mahalapye le le neng le fotse line le tlhopha, e re madi a goroga, e East? Honourable Members, digang mantswe, le sebe, bo e le gore bone ke ba e leng gore ba a utlwalela fela. le seka la tsaya dikgang tse di feteletseng. Ga ba itse le gore a jewa ka tsela e e ntseng jang. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH (MR MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND MATLHABAPHIRI): On a point of order Madam WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Point Speaker. My point of order Madam Speaker is in of clarification Madam Speaker. Kgang e e toutiwang relation to Standing Order 116, which says, if I may read gangwe le gape e, nna ga ke itse gore tota re ka e with your permission, “Members and the public shall tlhalosa ka sebopego se se ntseng jang. Ke sa tswa go ensure that when attending the House and Committee tlhalosa gore, re ya go isa Batswana ba bo maitseanape meetings, cellular phones and other electronic devices ba maemo a a farologanyeng ba le masome a mane in their possession are switched off.” kwa China go ya go ithuta ka tsone dipitsa tse di Mabaka a gore go bo go na le modumo ke gore, go fetlhang motlakase, tse di tshwanang le tse re yang go na le message o mo cell phone e e fa e, ga e a timiwa. fetlha ka tsone kwa Morupule B1. Go na le dingwe, Jaanong, ke yone e tsositseng modumo. Rona re kwa ntle ga bomakgetho, fa go kgonegang gore re di reeditse Batlotlegi ba bua, jaanong message o, o re neye Batswana; ke fa sekai ka tse di tshwanang jaaka tsosetsa modumo, e bile o a rogana. matlo, ditsela, motlakase, pipeline fa e le kwa metsing, letamo le tshwana le la Lotsane, Batswana ba ya go MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Members, a ko re tsenya dipompo tsa selekanyo sa 174 km. Ba bangwe tseyeng Ntlo e ka tlhwaafalo e e tshwanetseng. Ga ke ditsela re ba di neile. Sekai, go tswa mo Mmadinare go rate go nna ke ntse ke kgalema bagolo ka gore, tota ya kwa Robelela, ba ne ba tlhaelela mo tseleng, they nna ke tsaya gore re mmogo mo moonong o wa gore were not performing. Mme ga re itsape, re tlaa nna re re tseye Ntlo e ka tlotla. Cell phone le messages, ke dira fela jaana. Kana re bua gangwe le gape gore, fa e sale ka bona dialogue e e fa gare ga Malatswai le le gore maBCP ba na le batho ba ba ka agang letamo, Mokoswana gore tjingwenyana tjiyapo. Jaanong, ba ba re neele. tima selo seo ke go lebeletse Honourable Member. Neela Honourable Matlhabaphiri a time mogala oo. MADAM SPEAKER: Tlaya kwa motsubong Tona. Mmaetsho, I am ordering you; give that phone to MR KEDIKILWE: Ba ba ka agang Morupule mo Honourable Matlhabaphiri to switch it off because I seemong sone sele, ba ba re neele. think you have no idea how to switch it off. Honourable Nshimwe, the floor is yours. MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Nshimwe, a ko o tsene mo molaong o tswe mo thumulanong. MR MODUBULE: On a point of order Honourable Speaker. Honourable Speaker, you have given an MR NSHIMWE: Kana Tona o bua ka badiredi ba ba instruction, unless you have retracted on that, that yang go ithuta ba BPC le ba bangwe ba ministry wa the Honourable Member should give the phone to gagwe. Rona re bua ka Batswana ba dikonteraka ba a Honourable Matlhabaphiri to switch it off. That was ntseng a bua ka bone. an instruction and I thought it has to be carried on.

128 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading MADAM SPEAKER: Hand it over, Honourable se e leng gore se tlhokafala mo lelwapeng lengwe le Tshireletso, it will help us a lot. lengwe. Bana ba kgone gore ba dire homework sentle, ba tle ba kgone go pasa. Ka gore malatsing a le kwa HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Lephateng la Thuto, go na le dikgang tsa 40 points. MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Member, hand Kana e boetswe kwa morago? over the cell phone, not to go and erase anything HONOURABLE MEMBER: E boetswe kwa but to switch it off. Mmaetsho, neela Honourable morago. Matlhabaphiri mogala. I am making that order for many reasons, not just molaetsa oo. Honourable Tshireletso, MR MMOLOTSI: Ee. Jaanong, ka tsela e e ntseng sit down. Thank you. jalo, re tsaya gore fa re tsena mo tsamaisong ya gore motlakase o tle o kgone go gola mo lefatsheng la rona, MR NSHIMWE: Thank you Madam Speaker. Mma gore o tle o kgone go goroga kwa mafelong a e leng ke seka ka ya kgakala, tota ke ne ke santse ke supa gore o ntse o sa goroge teng, kana go raya gore, go gore, mathata a a nnileng teng mo lebakeng le le ya go tlhabolola gore, bana maduo a bone a tokafale fetileng ke gore, kana motlakase all along o ntse o go simolola fela kwa primary, go ya go felela kwa duelwa ka bills, otlhe le o o domestic jaaka Tona a dithutong tse di kgolwane. ntse a bua. Fa ke tsaya sekai mo kgaolong e tshwana le ya me ya Chobe, gompieno kgaolo yotlhe fela from Jaaka ke ne ke kile ka bua maloba Motsamaisa Pandamatenga to Parakarungu, ba dirisa motlakase wa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, fa o ne o ile kwa mafatsheng, dikarata. Sone seo fela, ga ke dumele gore gompieno ke santse ke na le tumelo e e seng kana ka sepe, ya gore, BPC e ka nna le mathata a gore, go na le a large go na le dilo tse dintsi, tse e leng gore, Goromente wa number ya Batswana ba e leng gore ba kolota BPC lefatshe la Botswana o tshwanelwa ke gore a di dire. mo motlakaseng. Ba sa kgone go e duela, mo e leng Dilo tse ke go fokotsa the amount of loans tse e leng gore re na le mathata a backlog. gore, re a di tsaya kwa mafatsheng a sele. Dilo tse e leng gore ke dumela gore fa e ne e le gore re di dira Madam Speaker, tota kgang e tlhamaletse fa, ke sentle, loan e gompieno Tona a e kopang, e ka bo kopo ya madi. Ke yone kgang e re buang ka yone, gongwe e le half ya madi a a a batlang gompieno. e re batlang go supa jalo gore, madi a tle, mme fa a tla, a tsene mo diatleng tsa Batswana. A go lejwe Golo mo go a ntshwenya ka gore, ke bona o kare itsholelo ya Batswana, a go lejwe Batswana ka gore, lefatshe la rona le tla tsamaela go totomela thata ka ba tshwanetse le bone ba nne le seabe mo mading one dikoloto. Fa e le gore re tla tswelela ka go totomela a. Ke a leboga. thata ka dikoloto, re tlaa tloga re felela e le gore le rankings tsa rona di simolola go wela kwa tlase. Fa MR MMOLOTSI (FRANCISTOWN SOUTH): Ke rankings tsa rona di wela kwa tlase, kana go raya gore, a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke re tlaa bo re tshwana le mafatshe a mangwe a re tswang lebogela gore o bo o boile Mmaetsho, re ntse re go kgakala re a lebela kwa tlase, re tsaya gore gongwe tlhwaafaletse. Go ne go le thata, Motlotlegi Mabiletsa rona re tlhapisitswe ka metsi a lewatle. o ratile go re bolaya. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, mo Sunday Mmaetsho, tota kgang ya me ke kgang fela e e Standard ya maabane le mo karabong ya ga Tona wa tlhamaletseng. Ya gore tota ke dumalana le principle ya tsa matlo mo potsong ya Mokaulengwe mongwe wa gore, fa lefatshe le tsene mo nakong ya go tlhaelelwa Mapalamente, go ne ga supafala maloba gore matlo ke madi, go tshwanelwa ke gore go sekasekwe a masha a boTona, nngwe le nngwe ya one e agilwe metswedi e mengwe. This includes go tsaya loans mo ka madi a a fetang P5 million. Fa o tsamaya o ya mafatsheng a mangwe gore, go kgonwe go dira ditiro kwa matlong a teng Tona, ka a mangwe a bapile le tse e leng gore di ka tokafatsa seemo sa setshaba kana Parliamentary Village, o e lebelela fela seemo sa yone seemo sa batho ba ba nnang mo lefatsheng le. Ka tsela o tsamaya kwa ntle, ka mo teng ga go na gore nna ke e e ntseng jalo, ke dumalana le gone gore e bo e le gore ka go bona jang, le P1 million tota o montsi thata gore mo nakong ya gompieno, Tona o tshwenyegile ka gore e bo e le gore go ka twe go dueletswe kago yone e. re tshwanelwa ke gore re dire project e ya Morupule B Power Station. Maikaelelo e le gone gore, re tle re leke MR MOATLHODI: On a point of clarification. Ke go tokafatsa seemo sa motlakase mo lefatsheng la rona a go leboga Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa le mo dikgaolong tsa rona. Jaaka mongwe a sa tswa Palamente. Ke a go leboga Motlotlegi Mmolotsi e bile go tlhalosa Mmaetsho gore, motlakase mo malatsing a ke kopa maitshwarelo ka Serolong, ka segalona, go go gompieno, ga e sa tlhole e le selo sa go kgabisa, ke selo busetsa fa moragonyana.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 129 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading The Honourable Member alluded to the fact that this the nation is told what comments they made, the country seems to be over borrowing, and as a result people who announce the comments do not announce our position credit wise shall dwindle down. Is the what clarifications were given. I am talking about our honourable member aware that whatever type of Radio Botswana. That having been said clarification is borrowing, normally there is a fallback position? That certainly needed. means security available and that alone cannot make our credit position dwindle, what is your take on that? I am not going to make reference to what Honourable Gaolathe said, I was not there and I do not know about MR MMOLOTSI: Pele ga ke nna mopalamente it. The clarification is that indeed we do have limits Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke gakologelwa in terms of our borrowing, whether it is abroad or gore go ne ga nna le loan ya bo P10.1 billion e re neng domestically. There is no five per cent limit. The limit ra e kopa. Fa ke sale ke nna mopalamente, ke dumela is 20 per cent of GDP for borrowing outside and 20 per gore loan e jaanong ke ya bontsinyana re ntse re tla bo cent for borrowing domestically. re e kopa. Ga ke solofele gore re tlile go ema fa. Ke belaela gore, re tla nna re ntse re tswelela re adima. Now with regard to borrowing outside you are right, but I would like to say the loans that we are talking about this MR MODUBULE: On a point of elucidation Madam week from the World Bank and later on from the African Speaker. Honourable Speaker, I think Honourable Development Bank (ADB), have already been taken into Mmolotsi is very correct. Maybe the Minister of account in that limit. So, although we are close to the limit Finance could help because I still recall when these two loans have already been taken into account. Honourable Gaolathe was here, the last speech that he With regard to domestic borrowing, that is where we still gave was that, we were above the 5 per cent that we have quite a large cushion for us to borrow. That is why have said should be the maximum on our GDP on the we said that we shall be borrowing mainly domestically borrowings. As we continue to borrow, I am sure we to finance the deficit. Thank you Madam Speaker. have now exceeded that 5 per cent that we have set ourselves, what is the position as of now? MR MMOLOTSI: Ke a leboga Tona for that clarification,e mosola thata. Ke tsaya gore le Motlotlegi MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT Mopalamente wa Tonota South... PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): On point of clarification Madam Speaker. PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR APPROXIMATELY 25 MINUTES MADAM SPEAKER: O botsa Honourable Mmolotsi, he is the one that is on the floor. MR MMOLOTSI: Thank you Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente le fa ba nnetse go nthumula. Ba dira MR MMOLOTSI: Ke tsaya gore it is a good mainanyana a bone koo ba re they will discourage me, contribution. The Minister... mme ga ba kake.

MR MATAMBO: On a point of clarification to the MR SPEAKER (MR MOATLHODI): Ba member Madam Speaker. tlhokomologe and proceed with the Bill.

MADAM SPEAKER: Nnyaa, you should allow this MR MMOLOTSI: Legale tota ke ne ke santse ke le one to go on for 1 minute and then you can... mo kgannyeng Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ya gore, e re e tswa tota ke dumalana le principle ya MR MATAMBO: He is on the same point. gore fa lefatshe le tlhaelelwa ke madi le ka adima MADAM SPEAKER: No. Order! What I was trying madi. Tumelo ya me ke gore pele fa re ka adima madi, to clarify Honourable Minister is that the person re tshwanelwa ke go bona gore, a go ne go sena sepe se holding the floor was Honourable Mmolotsi, as a result sengwe se se ka dirwang pele fa madi a ka adimiwa. A anybody who asks any question, o e botsa ene. Once go ne go sena ditsela tse e leng gore, we could tighten he takes the floor you can then come in but not before our screws before re ka adima madi. Ka lebaka la gore, him. This is because he is now on the floor, you can fa re ne re ka dira jalo pele, re ka nna ra fitlhela e le have the floor Honourable Matambo. gore loans tse re neng re tshwanelwa ke go di tsaya, tse dingwe ga re na go di tsaya ka lebaka la gore, re MR MATAMBO: I thank you Honourable Speaker. kgonne go bona madi golo gongwe. Tse dingwe re ya Indeed I think clarification is required at this very go tsaya half ya tsone or even a quarter of what was point. The only problem I have of course is that, when expected. Re kgonne gore re le puso, re bone gore re ka Honourable Members make comments, later on when tsaya fa kae gore re seka ra adima thata.

130 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading Mo ntlheng e, kgantele o neng wa e bua maemo a tsamaya sentle, golo gongwe mo moleng, mongwe gago e santse e le a a kwa tlase. Motlotlegi, fa re o ka bo a lemogile gore ntlo e ga e kake ya duelwa tswelela ka tsela e e ntseng jaana, re a go felela e P5 million. Fa o bona mo moleng o otlhe, go sena le gore, we are going to be downgraded or down- yo a neng a lemoga, then you should know there is a ranked mo dilong tse dintsi. E le ka lebaka la gore, re problem. Jaanong ka tsela e e ntseng jalo Rraetsho, e re batho ba e leng gore re tla bo re itsege thata ka loans. ke dumelana le the principle of borrowing but I think Kgantele mafatshe ba ka nna ba tloga ba re bitsa bo re tshwanelwa ke gore, le rona ba re tshwereng ditiro mmadikoloto le bo rradikoloto. re di dira re bone gore a mme re dira sentle. E se re golo gongwe re iphitlhele re le mo mathateng a gore, Ke ne ke santse ke tsena mo kgannyeng ya matlo a re bereka go adima fela mme e le gore one madi a re a ke a boneng, a a bapileng le flats tsa Palamente, a adimang, ga re a dirise sentle. gotweng ke a maTona, go bo gotwe a jele P5 million. Go a ntshwenya ka lebaka la gore, go supa gore go Kgang e nngwe ya bobedi e e leng gore jaaka ke ne go sena tlhoafalo e ntsi ya go bona gore, a mme tlhalositse e a ntshwenya, mme e bile ke dumela gore tenders di dirilwe sentle. Ga ke dumele gore, fa e le tota fa nne dilo e le gore re di leba sentle, e ka bo e re gore dilo di ne di lebilwe sentle, ntlo yone ele e ka bo boloketse madi e bile re sa patikesege go adima madi e agilwe ka madi a a fetang P5 million. Ke tsaya gore a a kanakana ke go fetola uniform ya Sepodise. All of mo go diragetseng, ke phoso e nngwe e e leng gore a sudden uniform ya Sepodise e fetotswe, go tlisitswe go na le matlo a mangwe jaaka ke utlwa, gotwe a ntse a low quality uniform e e leng gore e a baba, e e leng a tsweletse a ya go agiwa ka bo P5 million. Ke kopa gore... goromente to reconsider that position. Those projects should be tendered again because ke dumela gore ntlo MR SPEAKER: What part of the Bill is that ele e ka agiwa, fa gotwe e turile e ka nna P1 million Honourable Member e e babang? and not P5 million. MR MMOLOTSI: Ke bua ka tiriso ya madi Rraetsho MR REATILE: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente because Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke golo fa ke lebile opportunity costs. Jaanong nna ka ne ke re ke botse Motlotlegi Mmolotsi, gore a mme re gompieno, tender ya madi a a seng kana ka sepe ka gore ene o setse a kgonne go bona matlo a, a feta has been awarded to batho ba e leng gore they supply a le mo tseleng fela, a ga a ise a tsene mo teng? A ga uniform ya Sepodise. Mo tseleng jaaka ke ne ke tswa se gore mo teng ga ntlo, interior, go ka tswa e le gore Francistown, maabane fa re ya kwa phitlhong, re ne jaanong boturu jwa yone, ke jone jo bo ka tswang bo o ra ba feta mapodise a re ba ratang fa thoko ga tsela. ja bo P4 million. Ke raya gore ba ke neng ke na le bone mo koloing ba re, “e le gore security se ke sa kae”? Ba re gongwe ke MR MMOLOTSI: Ee gongwe. Ke gore ke bonye security se sesha ka gore le uniform ya G4S in terms matlo a a agilweng a mangwe e le very beautiful double of quality le sengwe le sengwe, is much better than the storey houses, tse e leng gore di ne di lopa beng ba uniform e re e lebileng gompieno ya mapodise. Ke ne tsone bo P2.5 million. Very beautiful, not comparable ke tla ke ema mo go bone ke bua le bone mo tseleng e to what I see gotwe ke matlo a maTona. Le gone I think yotlhe go tswa kwa Francistown... the whole principle is wrong gore go bo gotwe Tona o ka agelwa ntlo ya P5 million. Ke gore fa o tsaya o MR SPEAKER: Please do not dwell too much on tshwantshanya le matshelo a Batswana, e bo e le gore that issue because it is not part of the Bill. I had just botshelo jwa motho yo e leng gore ka letsatsi o tshela left you because I thought you were making some ka P10.00, mme motho yo a mo tlhophileng o kgona comparison, but you seem to be habitually on that go agelwa ntlo ya P5 million, there is not balance. Ke issue now, if not residual. Honourable Mmolotsi, I sone se e leng gore, re tlile go felela re adima madi know you can articulate your facts very well but do a a seng kana ka sepe ka lebaka la gore, we are not not divert too much. bringing first things first. Jaanong ka tsela e e ntseng MR MMOLOTSI: Kana ke gore ke tsiediwa ke gore jalo ka re, re ka boloka P4 million mo yone, a bo a golo fa ke bua ka gore, golo gongwe kwa e leng gore re isiwa gone kwa loans tsone tse, kgotsa kwa deficit tse ka bo re bolokile madi teng, kwa e leng gore we can still e leng gore re lela ka tsone. do that, ke gore uniform ya mapodise, e e leng gore ke Kgang e e nkutlwisa botlhoko, e bile e njela masole ya quality e e kwa tlase, e e leng gore ba re fa ba ntse ba a mmele Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke mpolelela ke tswa kwa, ba re e tsenya phefo ka lebaka la dumela gore dilo ga di tsamaye sentle. Fa di ne di gore e letsatsanyana, o ka re ke ya maChina.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 131 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading Ba re ga e na dipata gope, dikete tsa basadi ga go na Anyway, kgang ya me ke gore, as I migrate from point dipata, marokgwe ke slack fela. Ga ba itse gore, ba tla e ke neng ke e tshwere, maloba ke ne ka tlhalosa tsenya phones fa kae fa ba alotse magodu. Tota a mme gore ke tla eletsa gore mo nakong e ke tla bong ke le go ne go tlhokafala gore re fetole uniform mo nakong Mopalamente, go ne go ka nkgotsofatsa thata gore, e ya gompieno, itsholelo ya rona e le mo mathateng? re fa ke bewa kgang e e ntseng jaana fa pele, ke bo ke Uniform e e neng e ntse e dirisiwa, e e leng gore ba tlhaloganya sengwe le sengwe. Ke gore ke itse terms ne ba ntse ba e tshwere ba le mo go yone, fa e ne e tsotlhe tsa loan e. Ke seka ka bolelelwa duration, tlogetswe, re ka bo gompieno jaana re sa spend madi a payment period ya yone fela le interest rate, jalo jalo. a kana ka P24 million kana ke go feta. Ke tla eletsa gore ke itse gore tse dingwe tse e leng gore ke terms tsa loan e, ke dife. E tle e re fa ke dumela, ke MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! I have left you to talk at bo ke le sure sentle gore ke dumalana le selo se e leng length on that issue and it is not part of the Bill. I warned gore ke itse shape, colour le form ya sone. you before and I now direct you to quit that issue and migrate to a different point relevant to the Bill. Jaanong, go ka nkutlwisa botlhoko thata fa e le gore e ka re mo tsamaong ya nako, ke ne ke tsaya gore ke MR MMOLOTSI: Ke ne ke santse ke ala, Motlotlegi tlhaloganya golo mo, ke bo ke iphitlhela e le gore ke Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Kgang ya me mo seemong sa gore ke a itshola gore ao, go riana loan ke yone eo. Our priorities are not right, that is why re that I was approving ele e ne e na le strings attached. tlile go nna re tla fa gotwe loan ya se, loan ya se, mme Tsa gore go tle maChina a le 100, a tla a patile loan eo, madi a teng a nna a gola letsatsi le letsatsi. Lebaka ke a tle go bereka kwa Morupule B Power Project. Go ka gore ka fa on the one side, re dirisa madi ka tsela e e tla ga nkutlwisa botlhoko thata. Ke sone se e leng gore gakgamatsang, mme on the other side ra re re batla go tsatsi jeno gone, ke tlaa dumalana le Tona gore e e fete, adima. A re tlhaloganye gore madi a re a adimang, a mme ke la bofelo. Maloba ke tlhalositse gone fa ke re, tla ka interests tse di seng kana ka sepe. As I migrate golo mo ga go intumedise. Letsatsi leno ke a tlhalosa Mr Speaker from that point, ke ne ke batla go tlhalosa ka re, ga ke batle to approve on behalf of batho ba gape gore... Francistown South. Ga ke batle to approve loan e ke sa MR MODUBULE: Elucidation, Mr Speaker. I just itseng terms tsa yone. Ke dirisa bonna fela to approve wanted to say to Honourable Member, kana o ntse o this loan. Mo nakong e e tlang, ke kopa addendum e e bua ka madi gore madi a rile. Before we went for break, tlhalosang all the conditions that are attached to any ke ne ka supa gore, kana Honourable Gaolathe o kile loan e e leng gore, e tla bo e beilwe fa pele ga rona. a bua gore, we have just exceeded five per cent e re It will help when I approve, ke bo ke itse gore, mme I neng re e ipeetse re le Botswana on the GDP; on the approve loan e e nang le eng le eng. deficit gore ga re nke re e fete. Ke bo ke re Tona o ne a Re a gakologelwa gore mo malobeng, nako ya loan ele ka tlhalosa gore, ke eng fa o ka re re tla ya kwa pele? ya Eltech, go ne ga nna mokubukubu. Ke ne ke ntse Tona a bo a re nnyaa, ga go na sepe se re se ipeetseng kwa gallery jaaka banna bale, ke tswela Palamente sa mofuta oo. pelo. Go le mokubukubu, Rre Sebetela a tswa to print Ke ne ke re gongwe ke thuse Mokaulengwe ke re, fa emails of condition of Norditec Bank, something like a ka tsaya Budget Speech ya the 4th February 2008, that. Ga nna mathata gone fa, go lebega e le gore loan e re neng re e bewa pele ke Honourable Gaolathe on e, e na le conditions dingwe tse Mapalamente ba neng the overall balance Page 27, o tla lemoga gore go ba sa di tlhaloganye. Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, ke sone ne go buiwa ka gore, ga re a tshwanela go feta the se re reng re rotloetsa Tona gore, mo nakong e e tlang international standard se se beilweng sa three (3) per Rraetsho, re neele all the conditions gore, re tle re cent of the GDP. Jaanong, rona re le Botswana re setse dumele re itse se re se dumelang, re tle re gane re itse re fetile five per cent. Ke yone e ke neng ke bua ka yone se re se ganang. Re seka ra berekela mo go se se mo ke re, fa Motlotlegi a ka tsaya pampiri e, o tla lemoga lebokosong. Go a ntshwenya gore gompieno re bo re gore Tona o ne a reng mo go yone. Ke a leboga. ya go senka P900 million, mme ke dumela gore o teng golo gongwe mo lefatsheng la rona. MR MMOLOTSI: Ke a leboga, ke tsaya gore Tona o utlwile, gongwe dilo tse di a fetoga. Ngwaga o mongwe Fa o lebelela dikago tsa puso tse di tlogetsweng go go a fetoga, e nna five, ngwaga o mongwe e nna 20, fudugiwa mo go tsone, tse dingwe e le gore ceiling gongwe go na le mo go tweng to review, gongwe Tona e tlhoka go baakanngwa go le sekaenyana, mme di reviewed, ke 20 jaanong from the five.Gongwe ebile it bo di latlhiwa, jaaka kwa Francistown kwa the old is guided ka bo recession and the other things. Magistrate Courts. Ke dikago tse di tona, tse dintsi tse e leng gore gompieno jaana, di foo ga di dire sepe,

132 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading gongwe di ne di ka neelwa the private sector ba di we are risking coming up and recording fallacies fano. hirisa. Boemong jwa gore go bo go emelediwa kago e The matter of the Serowe stadium was discussed in nngwe golo gongwe, they could have been renovated, this House and reported that it was condemned. That tsa tsenngwa mo tirisong gape. Re ka bo re bolokile is another difficulty that we are dealing with; bad madi a a seng kana ka sepe. Fa re ne re di neetse private supervision, bad workmanship. So, we cannot sit here sector, re ka bo re tsaya rent e e seng kana ka sepe mo and pretend that se a dirisiwa se sa dirisiwe. Ke ne ke dikagong tsone tse. re ke go kope Honourable Speaker gore, a Honourable Member a tsene mo topic e, re sale tsamaiso morago, Ga se yone fela. Fa o ya kwa constituency ya ga Rre ka gore o a re rumola, re tloga re araba le tse di sa Tshelang Masisi, go na le sekole sa Tatitown Primary tshwanelang go arabiwa. School, se e leng gore se bapile le molapo. Se ne sa tlogelwa, go fudugiwa go ya go agiwa sekole se sesha. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! In all fairness to the Dikago tsa teng are intact, jaanong di nna dilapidated Honourable Member holding the floor, when the issue gompieno ka gore ga go diragale sepe mo teng. Fa di on Serowe stadium was discussed, I remember vividly ka bo di hirisediwa, batho ba direla kgwebo mo go very well, it was about Ninth Parliament and the tsone, re ka bo re sa kope loan kwa China, re ka bo re Honourable Member for Francistown South was not ya go tsaya mo go tsone. yet here. I could not agree more with you about their relativity to the subject on the table. I have cautioned Ga se tsone fela. Fa o ya kwa bo Palapye le Serowe, go the Honourable Member before, and I was just waiting na le dikago tsa puso tse di tlogetsweng, tse e leng gore if he is going to be going further on his irrelevance. tumelo ya me ke gore, fa nne puso e hiriseditse batho I thought he was just making some comparisons and dikago tseo, di ka bo di tlisa income mo go goromente. indeed he was. I am taking great note of that. I am Re bo re sa patikesege gore, re bo re nna re adimela paying serious attention on his submission and should ruri, mme re na le dilo tse e leng gore ke tsa rona. Ke he dare go alinger, I shall be the first to hear him and I tla tloga ke tswelela ka list ya teng go fitlhelela phakela will bring him to the track. ka gore ke di tshwere ke tse. MR MMOLOTSI: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Fa o ya kwa bo Lobatse, di dintsi. Maloba Lephata la Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Gone kana jaaka ke le Thuto le ne le tswala college ya Lobatse e e leng gore Mopalamente, sengwe sa dilo tse ke tshwanelwang ke gompieno re latlhegelwa ke madi a mantsi mo go yone gore ke di dire, ke go gakolola gore go ka dirwa jang every month. This is because kgwedi le kgwedi kana gore seemo se tokafale. letsatsi le letsatsi, go na le cost e e leng gore we incur as the government mo go nneng ga yone. Ke dilo tse e leng Re bua ka loan, mme ke bua ka dilo tse e leng gore di ka gore re tshwanetse gore re di lebe with an open heart. Re itsa gore re ka bo re tsene mo seemong sa gore re adime seka ra defend gore nnyaa, ga go re sepe; go a re sengwe. madi a. Jaanong ga ke itse gore a go na le prescription Re na le mathata a gore dikago tseo, di ka bo di direla ya gore debate e tshwanetse gore e tsamaye ka tsela e goromente wa rona income e e seng kana ka sepe. e ntseng jang. I believe I am very relevant.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Stadium kwa Serowe. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, of course there is prescription. Standing Order 46(1) exactly says, “You MR MMOLOTSI: Stadium kwa Serowe for example, must be precise.” Maybe I need to read what it has to se e leng gore le sone se a tlogelwa go ya go agiwa say. Standing Order 46(1) has this to say, “A Member stadium se sele... shall restrict his observation to the subject under MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS discussion.” ‘Shall restrict’ is the operative word, ‘to DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): On a the subject under discussion’ and ‘shall not introduce point of procedure, Mr Speaker. Honourable Member, matters irrelevant to that subject.’ In all fairness, there some of the things he is saying are correct in their own is nothing about Serowe stadium. Honourable Member, right. The question is their relevance to the issue on the please be warned and be advised. table. If it were possible that everything under the sun MR MMOLOTSI: Thank you very much for quoting were to be brought up under every single loan, ga go yone eo ka gore, e bua sone se ke sa se direng. E tlhalosa na yo o ka palelwang ke go supa dilo tse e leng gore gore ke seka ka tlisa any matter o o irrelevant. di imetse goromente, fa goromente a paletsweng teng. Ga go na yo o kileng a re goromente o kgonne sengwe MR D. SALESHANDO: Ke kopa tlhaloso. Ke le sengwe. All we are asking for so that everybody has a leboga, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. an opportunity to contribute to the debate, gape ebile Gongwe ga re go utlwe ka go tshwana. Ke ne ke re

Hansard No 163 Part 4 133 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading gongwe o tlhalose gore a wena kutlwisiso ya gago ke MR MMOLOTSI: Ke a leboga Rraetsho, mme ke gore, fa ditshenyegelo tse dingwe tse di sa nna teng, ka raya gore ke tla tswelela ke bua ka tshwantshiso gore, mafoko a o a rayang ke gore, re ka bo re sa tlhokafale batho ba kgone go tlhaloganya gore ke tswa kae ke gore re ye go adima madi. Kana wa re, ee a re adime ya kae. Ke dumela mo goreng ke tshwanelwa ke gore madi, mme mo gongwe tse dikgang ga di amane le loan ke dire comparisons, illustrations, distinguish and ya madi. O re tlhalosetse sentle gore a se o se rayang ke differentiate… gore, fa dilo tseo di ne di dirilwe, mme le mo nakong e e tlang e le gore di tle di dirwe, re seka ra iphitlhela re MR MODUBULE: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. adima madi, kana o raya gore wena ga di nyalane? Honourable Speaker, with all due respect I am at a loss. I do not remember any time that I had any quarrel with MR MMOLOTSI: Ee, kana ke gore nna ke a you. Did we have any? In your remarks you said do I gakgamala ka gore nna ke tsaya gore this matter o want to pick another quarrel, I do not think we ever had tlhamaletse fela. Fa e le gore bangwe decide gore ba a quarrel Honourable Speaker. I am sorry if I did. seka ba tlhaloganya, nnyaa, tota go nna dingalo mme fela kgang e tlhamaletse. Ka re we will not be... MR SPEAKER: A e nne modiga Motalaote.

MR G. SALESHANDO: On a point of procedure, Mr MR MMOLOTSI: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Speaker. Kgang e, e re ama rotlhe. A ga se gore gongwe Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke ne ke re ke tswe mo mme re dire gore nako nngwe ka Labone, tsone dilo tse kgannyeng eo ya gore, P900 million re ne re ka mmona di tlhalosiwe sentle, ka gore le nna ke mo tsietsegong fa dikago tse re di latlheletseng re le puso, re ka bona e e gakgamatsang. Ka fa re senyang ka teng madi, re gore, di ka bo di ne di le mo tirisong gompieno. Ka tlaa adimela ruri. Re ya go nna le mathata ke bo ke nna lebaka la gore, di ka bo di dira madi ka kgwedi a a neng irrelevant. Ke na le mathata a gore, how do I debate a ka dira gore, re bo re sa tseye loan jaaka gompieno in this House. Ke sone se ke kopang gore gongwe ka re kopa loan jaana. Laboraro, dilo tse re tle re bone gore gatwe re tsena Kgang e nngwe e ke batlang go tsena mo go yone jang mo go tsone. Thank you. ke gore, kana ke ntse ke bua gore tota re ka bo re ne MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Batlotlegi Mapalamente, re tshaba jang gore, re tseye loan e ke tla tlang ke kana ga go na ope molato gore, e ka re Mopalamente a dumalana le gore e tsewe e. Fa o lebelela ka fa ditiro tshwere kgang ya gagwe, jaaka Motlotlegi Mopalamente tsa rona di dirwang ka teng, tota o tla fitlhela e le gore wa Francistown Borwa a tshwere kgang ya gagwe, a bo the quality ya tiro e e leng gore ditiro tsa rona di dirwa a ka neela tshwantshanyo fale le fale. Melao ya rona ka yone, e kwa tlase thata. Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, e bo ga e a gagamala mo go kalo, e a letlelela, mme fela fa e dira gore, maintenance o bo o dirwa gantsi. motho a tla fuduga a tswa kwa uniform ya mapodisi, a Go na le ditsela fela tse di ntsha tse di neng di ntse di ya kwa stadium, jaanong what is next? dirwa maloba, mme fa jaaka ke ntse ke tla jaana, pula e HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Murmurs)… di phatlotse phatlotse. Go raya gore, re ya go tshwanelwa ke gore re dirise madi ka bofefo mo go tsone, go leka go MR SPEAKER: Nnyaa, ga gona gope fa tshenyo e di baakanya, go thiba potholes tse. This is because of the buiwang teng. Motion o bua ka kadimo ya madi kwa poor quality e e leng gore, e a bo e dirilwe mo ditirong World Bank so… tsone tse. Mo nakong e e tlang, re ya go senka loan e nngwe gape ka lebaka la madi. Mo boemong jwa gore re HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… ka bo re ne ra tsaya kompone e re lebileng credibility ya MR SPEAKER: Honourable Modubule please, you yone, gongwe re ne ra leba tse dingwe, mme ra tlogela want to pick another quarrel with me. I do not want kompone e e neng e ka dira tiro e e nonofileng. Ra seka that quarrel. Ke a le gakolola Mapalamente, Standing ra nna re dirisa madi a mantsi mo tirong e le nngwe fela. Order 49 (1) e mpha tetla gore, fa Mopalamente a ntse Re nna re boa boa mo project e e one fela, re dirisa madi a tsweletse a gogela kwa thoko, ya re, ke mo kgalemele a a seng kana ka sepe. Dilo tse fa re ne re di leba sentle, ke re, tswa gotlhelele mo tseleng e e ntseng jalo. Ga ke re ka bo re tsena mo seemong sa gore re adime go setse batle go dira jalo ka Motlotlegi Rre Mmolotsi ka gore, go le thata. Re re ga gona gope kwa madi a ka tswang ke Mopalamente yo o tlhophilweng ke batho a emetse teng jaanong a re adimeng, re re re lebile gongwe le kgaolo. Ke mo gakolotse gore a bue jang, mme fa a gongwe mme dilo tsa rona re di dira sentle. Mo nakong ntse a tsweletse ke tla dirisa Standing Order. Ga nke ya gompieno, ga ke dumele gore re e tshwere sentle ke se dirisa mo go ene, fela mme ke tla se dirisa mo go thata, mo goreng a dilo tsa rona re di lebelela sentle mongwe le mongwe yo o tlaa tswang mo tseleng. before re ka re ga re na madi.

134 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading Mo kopong ya ga Tona jaaka ke tlhalositse gore ke MR SPEAKER: It is not for you to say ‘ga se tsone bofilwe matsogo, ke tla felela ke dumalane le gore tsotlhe’. e tsewe ka lebaka la gore, ga ke batle gore ditirelo dipe di eme. Ke ne ka bua maloba gore, projects tse MR MMOLOTSI: Rraetsho Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo di tona bagaetsho tse di ntseng jaana, we must have a tsa Palamente, gongwe ke gakolole fela gore ga se tsone deliberate citizen economic empowerment policy, as it fela. Maloba re ne re bua ka e nngwe e e leng gore, prevails in South Africa. E re fa project e e simolola, Tona o ne a tlhalosa gore ga a ka ke a kgona go tsenya re bo re kgona go tlhaloganya gore, mme Motswana conditions tsotlhe, mme le mo nakong ya gompieno ene mo go yone o ya go akola eng. P900 million or Tona ga a di tsenya tsotlhe Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa whatever amount a a yang go dirisiwa mo project ya Palamente. Le ene o ka ntshupela gore ga a di tsenya Morupule B Power Project, Batswana mo teng ba ya go tsotlhe fa. Ke ne ka tlhalosa gore, tse ke a di itse gore ja eng. Malatsing a go tumile fela gore ke tshwanetse di teng di kwadile. Ke ne ka ba ka di bua kgantele… go ja something. So, Batswana ba tshwanetse gore ba MR G. SALESHANDO: On a point of clarification, je something mo projects tsone tse, ka lebaka la gore, Mr Speaker. Ke tsaya gore Tona o tla dumalana… ke mo ga bone. Ga ba na gope fa gongwe fa e leng gore ba ka ya go gweba teng. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Saleshando, you have to wait for the Speaker to call upon you. MR MOREMI: On a point of clarification, Mr Speaker. Thanks Mr Speaker. Ke ne ke re ke botse MR G. SALESHANDO: Fa e le gore ke utlwile Tona Mopalamente Rre Mmolotsi gore, ga a bone gore sentle, o ne a bua ka batho ba a ba rometseng golo gongwe, deliberate citizen economic empowerment component go ya go ithuta dilo dingwe gore, bone ba ba tle ba dire e e tla bong e tsenngwa e tla thulana le conditions tsa pharologanyo mo go se o se buang. Ke conditions mme loan e, tse re senang tsone? A ga a bone selo seo gore, ke re ga go a lekana, go tla very late go le go nnyennyane. kana o tloga a re senyetsa loan? Go na le conditions tse di tona tse e leng gore, di ya go dira gore batho ba rona ba seka ba bona sone se o buang MR MMOLOTSI: Ke sone tota ke reng, next time ka sone, ka fa Tona a buang ka teng. I am not going to approve any loan that comes here without all the conditions. Ka lebaka la gore ke batla MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Maybe before you gore, ke di tlhaloganye sentle. Conditions di tle fa, e tle stand up Honourable Mmolotsi, bagaetsho, I think we e re jaaka fa ke tla tswelela ke bua ka citizen economic need to be very fair and impartial. If you look at the Bill empowerment, ke bo ke itse gore ga e gotlhagotlhane book itself, what was guiding the Honourable Minister gope le terms tsa loan. Fa e le gore, e ka felela e to bring this issue before the House this afternoon; at gotlhagotlhana le tsone, ke e gane on the basis of B.5 where it says ‘Section’ some of the conditions from that. This is because ke dumela thata gore, Batswana 1 up to 6 are there. It simply says ‘terms and conditions ba tshwanelwa ke gore, ba letlelelwe go gweba mo of loan to be laid before National Assembly’. We all lefatsheng la bone. Re seka ra nna mo seemong se e understand English and what it says. leng gore re gwebisa batho ba e leng gore bone ga ba MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT ke ba re gwebisa kwa ga bone. PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): On a point of MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member for Francistown elucidation, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I just wanted South, maybe before you sit down, in all fairness to to say that maybe Honourable Members can assist by the Minister and even to your good self. On Page four indicating those conditions that they think apply to of the Minister’s speech, the terms of the World Bank these loans, which I have not informed them about. loan are as follows: That is point number one so that we could be specific.

“(a) Repayment period - 30 years Now, it seems to be the manner of the way we do business in this House. We keep repeating ourselves. Last week, (b) Grace period - 4 years when we were discussing the Kasane Airport Loan, I (c) Interest et cetera up to (d)”. did indicate that of course the terms and conditions with regard to these institutions, are contained in very huge I am quite conversant, that you are very much conversant books and those books are available. It is not every term with the terms under which loans are offered and this is in those books that would apply in a loan for example part of the loans. like this one. The only other conditions that maybe for your information, but I mentioned them again last week, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ga se tsone tsotlhe. is when it comes to bidding.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 135 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading This money comes from the World Bank, which gets buang Mokaulengwe, ke supe gore, kgang e Minister a the money from international sources. So, when it e buang, e a reng go na le conditions that are binding comes to bidding, there is no way that the bank can us, for instance, yone e go buiwang gore, bidding ya say bidding shall only be restricted to Botswana rona has to be international. Ke batla gore Tona a companies. I am afraid, that condition is there and it itse gore, le rona fa re tsamaya re ya go adima kwa is going to be international competitive bidding. We World Bank, we are very important customers to the are talking of large sums of money not from Botswana World Bank. Therefore, ga re adima koo re na le gore but from outside. I think Members would have to le rona re ka baya conditions le dikopo tsa rona. We wait until Botswana is in a position to lend money to can negotiate that loan, re ntsha our conditions much another country; your citizen economic empowerment as a very important client ya Barclays Bank a ya koo, principle is going to apply. There is no way that you a ya to negotiate interests and other conditions tsa can lend money to another country and not demand loan. Le rona we can do that, such that issue ya citizen that your company should benefit from that. empowerment can be embarked in our conditions. Ke re ke go tlatse fela foo Mokaulengwe. At the end of the day, it ought to be common sense. It is going to be international competitive bidding and it is MR MMOLOTSI: Ke gore go seka ga nna bulela not a secret. If it is won by a company other than the one di tswe fela. Ka gore fa bone ba bone e le gore rona in Botswana, what else can we say? It was international ga re a akanya sepe, ba tla re akanyetsa. Jaanong go competitive bidding. As the Minister had said earlier botoka gore re bo re e bega re re, re tshwere se, ra today, that is where it is possible. There is encouragement riana le jaana. that the foreign company that will have won, I know you are going to say you do not want encouragement; MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT you want it to be law. I have said before that the issue PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): On a point of of whether it should be law or we should force them elucidation. As somebody said gore go tla nna le and so forth, it is a matter to be looked into as we go mathata. Yes I think mathata a tla nna teng. If we forward. These loans that I am talking about today, that just continue talking as if we have not heard anything, I ask you to talk about, not future loans, they come from then go tla nna le mathata. The Honourable Member the sources of international nature. The bidding is going has been hammering on this particular point and to be international competitive bidding. Thank you. supported by another, since last week. Every time we stand up and try to clarify that, it is not as if there are MR MMOLOTSI: I think life is going to be difficult. no negotiations to the effect that you are suggesting Tla ke tswelele ka kgang ya me. Ke tlhaloganya Tona a gore, let Batswana companies also participate. When bua ka international bidding. Ke dumela gore go na le we say international competitive bidding that does not sengwe se e leng gore le rona re ka se dira gore, dingwe exclude Botswana companies from bidding. That is tsa ditiro tse di tla bong di dirwa, di tshwanelwa ke point number one. That is not necessarily immediate gore at least in terms of percentage gongwe five per exclusion of Botswana companies, but even within cent, di neelwe dikompone tsa Batswana. Ka lebaka la regard to whether it is 5 per cent or what, I think what gore, Batswana should not be spectators in their own we agreed upon is participation. land, mo ditirong tsa bone. We have been trying to demonstrate here gore, in the The government is paying interest mo mading a. Ga on-going projects tse di leng teng, very big projects; go reye gore re a tsaya mahala. Fa re duela interest go we have Botswana companies participating therein; tshwanelwa ke gore go sologele Batswana molemo. Go na not because specific percentages have been mentioned. le gore re tle re nne mo seemong se e leng gore, batho ba It is our desire, all of us, to ensure that Batswana tlile go dira madi mo lefatsheng la rona ba bo ba tswa ba companies participate and they do in very big projects tsamaya ka one. Go sa sale sepe mo lefatsheng la rona. Ka which are on-going. Similarly, we will do the same tsela e e ntseng jalo, ke dumela gore this citizen economic when it comes to these projects that for now, we are component, e tshwanelwa ke gore e nne deliberate on talking about. I want to repeat that this is happening. every project ya madi a mantsi, fa go sa diragale jalo, then We have got Botswana companies participating in the ga ke itse gore, a re tla a bo re le goromente wa batho ba various dams, roads, and buildings that are being built Botswana kana wa batho ba ko kae. all over this country. They provide housing, construct roads and connect electricity. The big company MR MANGOLE: On a point of elucidation. Ke a provides something else. These are just examples, as it leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke is already happening. Thank you. re ke gatelele ke bo ke tlaleletsa mo mafokong a o a

136 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading MR MMOLOTSI: Ke a leboga gore Tona a bo a rialo. ya me ga di wele. Ya ntlha o ntse o bua ka gore, ga re Kgang ya me ke gore, e seka ya nna mo gotweng ga ba itse certain conditions. Jaanong, ke re ka fa ke bonang rata ba ka dira jalo. Nna ka re a re nneng mo seemong a bua passionately ka tsone, o tshwanetse a bo a di itse. se e leng gore, kompone nngwe le nngwe e e tswang Ke re gongwe o ka re tsenya mo tseleng gore ke dife kwa ntle ga e tsena fa, e fitlhela go na lepolicy e e reng dingwe conditions tse di botlhokwa tse gongwe Tona a Batswana ba tshwanela ke gore, ba participate, mme sa di buang, gore le rona re kgone go di itse. E tle e re ba participate ka selekanyo se se kana. Re sa ba kope. fa re bua re bo re di itse.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke kopa tlhaloso. Ya bobedi e ne e le ya 931 million, o supile gore 931 million o teng golo gongwe. Ke a amogela, o file MR SPEAKER: Honourable Masimolole, your dingwe dikai. Ke ntse ke re ke leka go tlhakanya gore colleague has yielded. a di goroga koo. Ga ke sure thata gore a di a goroga. MR MASIMOLOLE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Gongwe o ka tswa o na le dikai tse dingwe, tse di ka re Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke a leboga Mokaulengwe. thusang go goroga koo. Gongwe ke tla palama ka wena ka gore, se Tona a MR MMOLOTSI: Mokaulengwe conditions tse re neng a se bua kgantele, se ne se ntsietsa. E rile go le buang ka ga tsone, ke gore e rile maloba fa re bua ka loan kgantele a re o tlhalosa sengwe a bua gore, re letele e e neng e feta, Tona le gompieno o sa tswa go tlhalosa go fitlhela nako e e leng gore le rona re tla a bore gore, tota go na le buka e tona e go ka reng motho a e kgona go adima mafatshe mangwe madi. Re bo re etele a ye go di bala tsotlhe. Tona o ntse o bua jalo, le baya conditions. Jaanong, o ka re o boa gape a fetoga maloba o ne bua gore, conditions ke ne ke ka seke ke a re, conditions tse e leng gore one o bua ka tsone, di tlise tsotlhe fa pele ga lona. That is what is informing and this was immediately after Honourable Mangole kgang ya me ya gompieno, gore gongwe go ka tswa go na had taken the floor trying to elucidate. Se nna ke sa se le other conditions tse re sa di itseng. Ke ne ka fa sekai sa tlhaloganyeng ke gore, a a re le rona re le Batswana loan ele ya electrification of villages e e kileng ya tsena selelo se re lelang ka sone, re re dilo di tsenngwe mo fa ya kompone ya Eltech le Nordic Bank. Ke ne ke ntse diatleng tsa Batswana, a go a diragala fa re adima madi kwa go tsogile mokubukubu e le gore conditions tsa loan a a ntseng jaana? Ke sone se e leng gore Mokaulengwe di lebega e se tse di neng batho ba di itse. o lela ka sone... MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification. MR SPEAKER: In all fairness Honourable Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Masimolole, you cannot have access to the Minister Ke ne ke re Mokaulengwe ke a mo utlwa. Ke utlwa because he is not holding the floor. You should direct sekai se a re se fang sa loan e nngwe. Ke ne ke batla your contribution to the Honourable Member holding gore a mphitise gore mo go yone e, ke dife conditions the floor, and that is Honourable Mmolotsi. tse a buang ka tsone tse re sa di itseng.

MR MASIMOLOLE: I think I am doing exactly that MR MMOLOTSI: Ga ke kake ka bua ka tsone Mr Speaker, ka gore ke rile gongwe ke tla a bo ke palama specifically. Jaaka ke tlhalositse, ga ke itse gore a Tona ka ene. Ke tlhalosa point e e leng gore e ne ya bowa ya o di tsentse tsotlhe, ke belaela gore tse dingwe ga diyo. nontshiwa ke Motlotlegi Mangole, gore a mme jaanong Go na le loans tse dingwe, for example, tse e reng ga ga re bue dilo tse e leng gore o kare di e tla di ganetsana o di tsaya go be gotwe, mme e tla a re ga re go neela golo gongwe. I remember the Minister even saying, loan o tla a tsaya expertise tse di ntseng jaana mo ‘ke gone e tlaa re fa loans tse di ntseng jalo di tswa lefatsheng la rona. Tse dingwe go tla a bo gotwe o tla mo go rona, ke gone re tla a buang ka your economic a reka ditsompelo tse e leng gore o ya go dira tiro eo empowerment’. Ke bile ka bua ka re, ‘le wena own it’ o ka tsone mo go rona. E le dingwe tsa conditions tse di re ‘our economic empowerment.’ Ke a leboga. bewang. Like I said I am not privy to all the conditions MR MMOLOTSI: Nnyaa, mme o palame sentle. Fa of the Bill, mme ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, ga ke kake ka ke tsamaela kwa go weleng, bogologolo ga ke santse fa specifics. Ka re in the event e le gore go na le tse di ke le morutabana, gone ga nna le policy e nngwe ya job ntseng jalo, tota go ne go ka nna molemo gore, di ka bo shadowing… di beilwe tsotlhe fa pele ga rona re di bona. Fa e le gore ga diyo, well and good. Go tla bo go siame. MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. O ne o bua gore o ne o ntse o tlhakanya, mme o kare 981 Ke ntse ke reeditse Mokaulengwe ka tlhwaafalo. O million it does not add up, ga ke itse gore one o tlhakanya buile dintlha tse pedi tse e leng gore mo tlhaloganyong bokae le bokae, ka gore I did not specify any figures. Fa

Hansard No 163 Part 4 137 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading e le gore o batla gore ke e tlhalose in terms of figures, I fa go na le tiro e e tshwanang le ya Morupule B Project can do a hypothesis, ke re sekole se se kwa Francistown go bo go nna le dikompone tsa Batswana, gongwe sa Tatitown Primary se se saleng se tlogetswe, I think di tsenelela tender ya job shadowing. E bo e le gore five years ago. Mo dingwageng tse five ga se ne se dikompone tseo shadow tiro e e dirwang ke kompone e hiriseditswe a private school, se ka bo se ntshitse madi e tswang kwa ntle, e e leng gore rona mo lefatsheng la a a kana. The old magistrate court kwa Francistown e rona ga re itse. Maikaelelo e le gore e tle e re morago re na le, I think over seven years abandoned, fa e ne e le bo re ka kgona gore re nne le dikompone locally tse di gore we collect rent mo go yone, e ka bo e dirile madi a a ka tsenelelang tenders for those projects. Kana go raya kana. Ka gore you are my neighbour kwa parliamentary gore, fa e le gore di tshwere tiro eo ka botswerere, ga village, we can work out a hypothesis, ya gore tota re tlhoke gore fa project e senyegile, re latele kompone re akanya gore e ka bo e ne e le boka. Re ka tswelela e e neng e dira project ya teng kwa China gore e tle go gongwe re lebelela le gore goromente o latlhegetswe ke baakanya. This is because re tlaa bo re na le Batswana cases tse kae, re duetse bokae jalo jalo. Re nna re tlatsa kgotsa dikompone tsa Batswana tse di ithutileng go dira mo teng, gongwe 981 million o tlaa wela. a power station. Foo go raya gore it works out cheaper in the long run in that Batswana ke bone ba ba tla bong Le gale ke ne ke tsena mo kgannyeng ya Job ba dira tiro ya teng, which is the first benefit. Shadowing. Secondly maintenance wa teng o tlaa bo o dirwa ke HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… Batswana. You do not have to go out o ya go tsaya batho MR MMOLOTSI: Motlotlegi Motsamaisa ba ba tlaa bong ba dira maintenance wa ditiro tse di tona Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente kgang e ya uniform ga a e tse. If you do not have this one, ke le raya ka ntate gore, batle. Ka weekend go and assess. Ba ya go mo emisa 100 years down the line re tla bo re ntse re kopa thuso ba mmolelela gore, ‘rraetsho uniform e, e na le maroba kwa mafatsheng a mangwe go dira dilo tse re di dirileng a mantsi.’ Kgang ya me e ne e le Job Shadowing… mo dingwageng tse di 50 tse di fetileng. O bo o ipotsa gore where is growth mo go rona, a ga re gole. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, I asked you to quit that issue on police uniform. You are now imputing Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, ke ne ke kopa gore programme improper motives on the Speakership. You are trading e ya shadowing re bone gore re ka e dira ka tsela e e on thin ice. ntseng jang. E nne in our projects jaaka yone e, gore e tle e re nako e re yang go dira power station e nngwe MR MMOLOTSI: Ke ne ke re ga ke santse ke le kwa Francistown South e bo e le gore eo e dirwa ke morutabana bogologolo, pele fa ke tlogela borutabana kompone e e neng e ithuta mo go e e neng e dira tiro ka bogodi. E ne ya re ke le koo ga nna le programme kwa Morupule. Seo se ka re thusa thata ka gore, ditiro nngwe ya Ministry of Education e e neng e bidiwa le dikitso di ya go golela batho ba rona. Ka mafoko a gotwe Job Shadowing. E e neng e le gore bana … a kalo ke dumalana le gore Tona a neelwe madi a. Ke tlhalosa gape gore ke la bofelo ga go kake ga tlhola go HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… diragala gore ke dumalane go sa bewa dilo tsotlhe fa MR MMOLOTSI: Mogolole a re ke ene a neng a e pele ga me. Ke a leboga. dira. Which was a beautiful concept. Bana e ne e re MR GOYA (PALAPYE): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa fa dikole di tswalwa, yo o batlang go nna accountant Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente go bo o mphile sebaka se o ne a tsewa a isiwa to the Accountants a ya go ba gore, ke latlhele la mmotlana mo kgannyeng e Tona lebelela ba dira tiro. A ithuta tiro e ba e dirang gore, a a e re beileng pele. Kgang ya go leka go ya go adima tle a bone gore a mme o a e rata, e bile o ka e kgona. madi, go tla go tsamaisa thulaganyo ya go atolosa I think programme ya teng e ne e siame thata. Bana mafetlhelo a rona a motlakase kwa Morupule kwa ba ne ba ka kgona gore ba ithute ditiro ba di tshware Palapye, kwa kgaolong e ke e emetseng. Ke supe gore, ka botswerere. I am saying this concept because ke ke ema Tona nokeng ka pego e a e re beileng pele e dumela gore, tota ka fa ke bonang e le gore lefatshe la ka gore, motlakase ke selo se re se tlhokang thata mo rona le santse le tlhabologa ka teng, re santse re ya go lefatsheng la rona la Botswana. nna le projects tse dintsi tsa power stations, matamo le tsa ditiro ka go farologana. Kana bagologolo ba ne ba bua mafoko ba re, ‘lerotse la makotswa ga le na kgodu.’ E re fa ba re lerotse la Kopo ya me ke gore nako e gorogile ya gore re nne makotswa ga le na kgodu, ba ne ba raya ka seemo se le something like programme e e neng e dirilwe ke re leng mo sone gompieno se. Seemo sa gore, re ntse Honourable Mokgweetsi Masisi ya job shadowing. E re re kopa kana re reka motlakase kwa mafatsheng a a

138 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading bapileng le rona. Jaanong, go tlile nako ya gore, se ba re, grace period e ya four years fa e le gore gongwe e ntseng ba re thusa ka sone le bone ba nne le tlhaelo ya tshwana le ele ya kadimo e re neng re bua ka yone ya motlakase. Re tlhoka motlakase thata mo lefatsheng la Kasane ya maloba, e e leng gore re ya go nna re tsaya rona. A bo a bua gape mogologolo a re, ‘mpha mpha madi ka bongwe ka bongwe, ke gore the drawdown o a lapisa motho o kgonwa ke sa gagwe.’ E ne e ntse e ya loan fa e le gore e a go dirwa in instalments, let us le mabaka a gompieno re leng mo go one a tlhaelo ya arrange gore those instalments whatever amount that motlakase e e kanakana e re nang le yone mo lefatsheng we draw from the loan a small repayment, e e leng gore la rona la Botswana. it will actually counter the interest e re tlaa bong re e lopiwa on the amount that we have drawn. E re fa ke ema Tona nokeng jaana, ke bo ke itebaganye thata le setlhogo. Ke kopa gore Modimo Ramasedi a MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Goya, sorry seka a dira gore ke kailekaile le naga jaaka bangwe Honourable Member. Bagaetsho kana kgantele we have Bakaulengwe ba ne ba ntse ba kailakaila le naga, ke been warned against the use of cell phones in the House itebaganye fela le kgang e e fa pele ga rona e. when the proceedings are on. Standing Order 116 was categorically read out loud and clear to all of us. I am MR SPEAKER: Make sure Honourable Member appealing to you once more that should I dare hear such that you do not impute improper motives on other an unwanted and unnecessary melody I shall get that cell Members. phone grabbed from yourself by the Police. Honourable MR GOYA: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Member, sorry to have interrupted your flow of debate. Palamente, ke sone se ke se ikopelang gore go seka ga MR GOYA: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa nna jalo. E bile le nna ke seka ka kailakaila le naga ka Palamente. Ke ne ke santse ke bua ka gore madi a fa gore, kgang e re e beilweng fa pele e tota, e khutshwane. e le gore... Ga re a tshwanela go bua ka boleele ka yone. Gongwe re ka bo re buile ka boleele ka yone ka nako e e leng gore MR G. SALESHANDO: On a point of procedure Mr re ne re fiwa pego ya gore, go a go nna le thulaganyo ya Speaker. A mme gone re tlaa nna re tsamaya fela jaana go atolosa mafetlhelo a motlakase kwa Palapye, mme o bua fela jaana bagolo ba dira jaaka ba dira jaana, go e bile go ya go adima madi mangwe. Re ka bo re ne re lekane? Kana jaanong go raya gore ga go reye sepe, it tsene ka botennye thata, ra tsenela kwa teng teng nako is business as usual, ba tshameketse ruri fela. eo e seng gompieno fa re leng teng fa. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Kana nna Motlotlegi Ke tswelela ka gore mogologolo gatwe o ne a bua Mopalamente wa Selebi Phikwe Bophirima ke dumalana mafoko a a re, ‘sedibana pele ga se ikanngwe.’ E re le wena tota mogolole, e bile pelo ya me e khibidu fa o ne ke re sedibana pele ga se ikanngwe jaana, ke bo ke o bona, gore a mme tota re tlaa tshwanelwa ke go kgalema itebagantse thata le dingwe tsa ditsetlana, terms and bagolo bo Mosipuri ba le kwa gae? Ke ne ke ile workshop conditions, tse Tona a sa tswang go re di baya pele. A kwa India, ba dirile gore fa o tsena mo Palamenteng ya re bolelela gore, re ya go adima madi a mo selekanyong bone signal e bo e kgaoga. Ke tlaa tshwanelwa ke le kope sa dingwaga di ka nna masome a mararo, 30 years. Ke fa re le kwa general assembly to look into that possibility. bo ke re, fa re dumela gore re ye go duela loan mo This is because fela jaaka Honourable Saleshando a bua sebakeng sa dingwaga di le 30, a re na le tsholofelo ya tota fela bagaetsho go tlhabisa ditlhong. Ao, Jeso yo o gore nako yone eo kana mo tsamaong ya nako itsholelo bonolo, ke dumalana le wena nkgonne. ya rona e tlaa bo e ntse gongwe e itshetletse, mo e leng gore re ka tswelela re ntse re duela loan mo lebakeng MR GOYA: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa le le telele mo go kanakana? E re ntswa ke itse gore Palamente. Ke ne ke le mo kgannyeng ya gore, fa e le go botlhokwa gore re adime on a long term period ka gore madi a re yang go a adima a re ya go nna re a tsaya gore, the repayment becomes much lesser, mme gone ka go a ketlolaketlola a e re gone mo go nnyennyane re lebeleleng gape le dilo tse e leng gore a ka nako e e mo re go ketlotseng moo, fa e le gore dipata tsa rona di leng gore gongwe itsholelo ya rona e tokafetse, a re ka a letla, a re nneng re duele bontlha bongwe jwa teng. seka ra dira gore jaanong we double the repayments. Re E le go leka go fokotsa morokotso o e leng gore, e tle re fetse, re kgone gore re duele loan e mo sebakeng ka re phelelong kana mo tsamaong ya nako fa grace se se khutshwane. period e wela, gotwe simololang go duela, ra iphitlhela e le gore re duetse morokotso o montsi fela thata. E Ke ipoeletsa gape mo kgannyeng e ke kileng ka e bua bile kana e tla bo e se morokotso oo fela, e tla bo e fa re bua ka kgang ya Kasane maloba, e e neng e bua le almost interest on interest. Ke gone mo ke neng ke ka the grace period. Ke batla gore Tona ke mo reye ke batla gore, o ka re re ka go hema gone moo.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 139 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading MR SPEAKER: I think he is talking on ad hoc lines tse, di ya go feta mo merakeng le masimo a repayments, anyway let us hear your tlhaloso. bangwe. Fa gongwe o fitlhela e le gore gongwe bana ba rona ga go na therisano kana ga go na dipuisanyo tse di MR D. SALESHANDO: Ke kopa tlhaloso Motsamaisa tseneletseng. Fa ba fitlhela bagolo, gongwe basadibagolo Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Nna ke ne ke re ke tsaya le bannabagolo, ba ipeetse matlonyana fale o bo o fitlhela gore dikgakololo tse a di dirang, ke go batla dintlha e le gore tshipi e telele e ya transmission e tshwanetse dingwe di lebelelwa. Dilo tse di tshwanang le gore, gore e ye go tlhomiwa mo lwapeng la mongwe. Gongwe a go ka ne go duelwa madi a a fetileng sekale se se ga ba fe bagolo dipuisanyo tse di siameng kana ga ba beilweng gore go fokotsege ka bonako le gore grace bue le bone sentle. period a go ka nna le ka fa go ka duelwang go hema morokotso. Ke re ke botse Mokaulengwe gore, a Bogolo thata jaaka ke itse gore gantsi go dirisiwa tsone tseo ka conditions tse di teng gompieno, a di a dikompone tse di ikemetseng ka nosi kana consultants. letlelesega in this loan? Dinako tse dingwe go kgonwa O fitlhela e le gore ke bone ba ba tsamayang ba ya go go nna le loan e e leng gore le gone go leka go e fetsa bua le batho. These consultants, dikompone tsa tsone pele ga nako e e beilweng ke molato, gore a mo go e, a bontsi jwa tsone gantsi o fitlhela e le Makgoa. Jaanong, go a letlelesega ka fa go ntseng ka teng? fa ba tsena kwa basadibagolong kwa, o fitlhela e le gore dipuisanyo ga di nyalane sentle. Bone ba a tshoma ka MR SPEAKER: Can the seminar over that side end tshomi ya bone mosadimogolo le monnamogolo ga ba please? tlhaloganye gore golo fa gatwe go buiwa ka eng. E bile MR GOYA: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa go na le ditiragalo dingwe tse di setseng di diragetse Palamente le Mokaulengwe. Ke kgang e e botlhokwa tsa gore, bangwe ba tsamaya mo mafelong mangwe, e e a e buang, gore mme gongwe Tona e re fa a ntse fa re fa ba ntse fela ba bona Makgoa a, ba bo ba bona ba fatshe a buisana le bone e nne sengwe se e leng gore tsena mo jarateng, ‘dumela mma, dumela rra ke rona gongwe o ka ya to negotiate le bone. E re ntswa madi ba kompone ya..,’ o bo o setse o bona fela marching re sa ye go a tsaya gangwe fela ka tshoboko, gongwe mo jarateng ba tlhoma dingwe tsa bone, e le gore lines re a go a tsaya ka ketloloketlolo, a le ka letlelela gore di ya go feta gone foo. Jaanong, basadibagolo ba sala ketlolo e re tlaa bong re e ketlotse eo, fa re okomela ba gakgametse fela ba ipotsa gore go a reng. ka fa dikgetseng tsa rona, re bona o kare go na le Ke kopa fela gore a go nne le therisanyo le consultation sengwenyana ka fa letloleng, a re ka seka ra tikela e e tseneletseng. E bile go kopiwe beng gae ba e leng bontlha bongwe re ntse re leka go fokotsa. gore ba ka tlhalosetsa ba e leng gore ba ya go amega, fa Re itse gore the grace period ya four years fa e ditshipi tse di yang go feta teng. Ke se ke se kopang fela wela, gone the normal instalment, e e leng gore e thata. Kgang e Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ne e dumalanwe, e tshwanetse gore jaanong e bo e tota ga e a tshwanela gore e re latse fa. Ke kgang e ke simololwa e duelwa. Ke se e leng gore ke ne ke se bua bonang fela gore Bakaulenngwe e ka re fa ba tsena mo go gore Tona a se lebelele. Ba ba adimang madi bone, ba yone, ba tsene mo go yone ka botlalo ka gore motlakase tlaa go fa tse dintlenyane tse. Go tshwana le motho a betsho ke selo se e leng gore, re a se tlhoka rotlhe mo rekisa dinamune ga a kake a go raya a re dinamune lefatsheng. Mme re tshwanetse gore jaanong... tsa gagwe di bosula, o tlaa go raya a re reka tsa me MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND ka gore di sukiri, di monate. E re fa o e reka, fa o ka WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Ke seke o e jele gone foo, wa ya go e jela kwa lwapeng, ne ke re ke tlhalose gore, ka na rona re ba re tsenyang wa go fitlhela e le gore namune e jaanong ga e sukiri motlakase, mme re o tsenya mo lefatsheng la mongwe jaaka e ne e buiwa e bojarara fela. Ke se e leng gore, kgotsa bangwe. Pele ga re ka feta foo, mo ka sekgoa go ke ne ke re Tona dilo tse di ntseng jaana a di lebelele bidiwang environmental impact studies di a dirwa. Beng a tsenye leitlho le le ntshotsho mo go tsone. Ba seka ba lefatshe ba bo ba re naya tetla ya go feta foo. Ba ba bo ba itumedisiwa fela ke gore, gatwe four years grace ba dira dithulaganyo tse gore batho ba ba tlaa bong ba le period. Dilo tse di ntseng jaana ga di a re siamela. foo, go buisanngwe le bone go bo go bonwe gore fa e le Kadimo e ya madi, Tona o re beile pego ya gore go a go gore ke lesaka kana tshimo, phimolo keledi e nna jang. rekiwa dilo dingwe tse di bidiwang transformers, tse ke Ke ne ke re ke tlhalose gore gongwe go ka bo go sa sa itseng gore ka puo ya Setswana re ka di bitsa re re ke direge ka botswerere jo gongwe bo ka bo bo tlhokega eng. Dingwe tsa teng, go a go dirwa ditshipi tse di tlaa mo dipakeng dingwe, mme gone go a dirwa. Rona re bong di tsamaisa motlakase. Ke kopa gore a go ye go nna tsena kwa moragoragong jaanong sengwe le sengwe se le therisano e e tseneletseng thata ka gore transmission setse se dumalanwe, re bo re tsenya ditshipi tsa rona,

140 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading re bo re feta. Ke ne ke re go seka ga tsewa gore re dira ke re go ala ga me go nne bokhutshwane jo bo kalo ke sengwe le sengwe fa motlakase o tlaa bong o feta teng lebile tsamaiso. kana pompo ya metsi e tlaa bong e feta teng, beng ba lefatshe le ba ba nang le dithata ba ise ba sike gore Jaanong ka ke adile, kgang ya me ke e Rraetsho, gore go tshwanetse gore go tsamaisiwe jang. Ke a leboga Tona a e re jaaka fa re tlaa bo re adima madi jaana, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. a ke dumelang gore re tshwanetse ra go letla Rra go ya go a adima. E re le a amogela Rraetsho Kedikilwe MR GOYA: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa le tsena mo tirong e, le itebaganye le kgang ya Palamente, e bile ke leboga Tona Kedikilwe ka tlhaloso tikologo. Ka gore gompieno re utlwaletse mafatshe a eo. Gongwe lefoko le ke neng ke le tlhaetse ke lone a tlhabologileng gore e rile maloba, Americans ba ba botswerere jwa gore, e re ntswa ditherisanyo tsone di sa bolong go itirela motlakase kwa Philadelphia, ba le teng, mme gongwe ga di dirwe ka botswerere. Ke kgotlela lefatshe ba dirisa magala a a gakgamatsang bone ba ba lebanyeng, ba ba tshwanetseng gore ba dire ka technologies tsa bogologolo. Go sena yo o buang botswerere jone joo, ke sone se ke neng ke se bua. E ka kooteng ba a tshabiwa. E re fela Eskom e bua gore bile ke ne ke batla go feta ka kgang e gape gore, ka e tlaa dira ka kwa e ba e tla e patagana le rona kwa na katamoloso ya mafetlhelo a a motlakase a, jaanong Mmamabula, go bo go tsoga tlhatlharuane ya gore gongwe e ya go nna le mo go tlaa bong go duba Africa e ya go kgotlela lewatle. magala one a, go ntsha mosi kwa godimo, gore kana go lebelelwe le seemo seo, ke a itse gore se dirilwe. Jaanong, selo se re tshwanetse ra se ipaakanyetsa re le Batswana. Re a bo re tlile go tlhaselwa gore re ya go Fa go ne go lebilwe gore go ya go nna le gore gongwe kgotlela loapi ka mosi wa magala. Re tshwanetse ra mosi o tswe ka selekanyo se se fetang jaaka sa gompieno ipaakanya, ra bolela gore technologies tse re yang go di o tswa, a go nne go nne le dipuisanyo tse. Di tswelele dirisa, go fetola magala a gore e nne motlakase ke dife. Batswana ba nne ba tlhalosetswe gore mosi o gongwe Le gone le rona re bone ka ga re batle go itshenyetsa, re o ka tla wa ba ama ka tsela e e ka fe. Ke dilo tse e senke tse di tlaa bong di lebagane dipaka tsa gompieno, leng gore ke ne ke ka kopa gore a di lebelelwe. Bogolo tsa go fetlha motlakase, tse di sa kgotleleng loapi. thata ke lebile the population ya the two villages, ke gore Palapye and Serowe. Ke ka gore ke bone ba e Ke itse gore le fa re dirile jalo, re tlile go nna re bona yo leng gore mo tikologong eo, mosi o o tla bong o tswa o tlileng go re tsenya monwana ka gore ke polotiki ya gone kwa, ke bone o ka tlang wa ba ama. Ke ne ke rona bagaetsho ya botshelo jwa seAfrica le mafatshe a sa batle go bua ka boleele. Ke ne ke re this is a long mangwe. Mafatshe a Africa fa gongwe, ga a letlelelwe and short of my contribution. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa gore a ka fatlhoga ke batho ba re kopileng ditlhabololo Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. mo go bone. Se se botlhoko, e bo e re fa ba dirisa bana ba rona gore ke bone ba tle go opela pina ya sekolone MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS e se bakolone. Ke gone fa mafoko a nnang thata teng, DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): Ke a bo a nna botlhoko. O fitlhela ngwana wa Motswana a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. e re go buiwa ka ditlhabololo tsa lefatshe la ga bone, Rraetsho mma e re fa ke ema Mokaulengwe nokeng a bo a di tshela metsi, a bo a di kgoba jaaka e kete ke re, kana golo fa go kopiwa tetla ya go adima madi, go bua motho a tswa bontlha bongwe jwa ka kwa ga go ya go tlhabolola tiro ya maloba e nne Bakaulengwe equator. Kwa re itseng gore lekgobo la maAfrica le mapalamente re e laleditswe. E tshwerwe ke bo Rre tsalwa teng. Kedikilwe kwa Palapye, ya Morupule B Power Station. Mme ga se tiro e ntsha. E bile ke batla go Ke ne ke re ke fete ka kgang e ka gore, go a tlhokega dumela gore, tota fela fa re ne re ka eletsa gore dilo tse gore fa re tsena mo go e, re pataganele kgang e re dingwe re di itse, ke tshwanelo ya mapalamente rotlhe le Batswana, re le setshaba, re le mmogo ka gore fela ka kakaretso, gore fa dilo tse di bewa mo teng ga go direlwa rona. Ke rona re tlhokang motlakase. Go thulaganyo ya dipuisanyo tsa Palamente yone Order nna re kopa motlakase kwa mafatsheng a mangwe, Paper, re ye kwa go Tona re mo reye re re tlhalosa se. a re itseng gore le one a a re dilola, ba e leng gore Tlisa se. Mma re bone. Pele ga re tla go dia dipuisanyo letsatsi le ba rata ba tlaa tima motlakase wa bone gore fano ka go botsa le tse re ka bo re tswa go di itebela, ditlhabololo tsa rona di seka tsa ya gope ka gore le ya re re akgela fa ra bo e le gore mafoko a rona a rona, re bokilwe thata. Ba tloga ba tla ba bona gore mabedi. Ke dumalana le wena Tona mabaka a me a ke dipokonyana tse di fele. Mme di ka fela fa e le gore go tlatsang ka one ke a. Kana ke ganana le wena Tona motlakase re o tsaya fela kwa go bone. Jaanong, a re mme mabaka a ke gananang le wena ka one ke a, ke emeng ka dinao bagaetsho, re tlile go tlhaselwa, mme ganelela mo setlhogong sa letsatsi leno. Ke gore ke ne re sa tlhaselwe...

Hansard No 163 Part 4 141 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading MR G. SALESHANDO: On a point of clarification Mr dirang ka ponyo ya leitlho go tsoga go fedile ka moso. Speaker. Ke ne ke re much o bua puo e e siameng e Tona, Gongwe ke ya go tlamega gore ke tsose mokgosi ke ye mme o batla go e tlogela e sa wela, o wele ka gore, o raya go bitsa le ba e seng Batswana, ka gore ke batla tiro e e lekgobo le le tswang mo baneng ba lefatshe la Botswana dirwa ka moso gore bana ba boele mo classes. jang, le ntse jang, le re tsenya mo mathateng? Jaanong, ke bua se ka gore, fa go tlhokega gore ke bitse MS VENSON-MOITOI: Ke tla go fa sekai Rraetsho maChina ke ya go ba bitsa. Ka gore stadium se se neng le fa se sa lebagane le gore ke arabe Mokaulengwe. se buiwa ke Mokaulengwe sa kwa Serowe, se se sa Sekai se se tletseng ke fa goromente wa Botswana a re, siamang, bus rank e e neng e ka buiwa ke Mokaulengwe batho fa ba tlhabololwa ba tlhabololelwa kwa metseng ka ga a e bua e le kwa Serowe, e e agilweng gararo, e seng kwa lefelong la diphologolo jaaka kwa Central e agilwe ke dikompone tsa bana ba Batswana, it was Kalahari Game Reserve (CKGR). Lengwe lekgoa supervised by bana ba Batswana. Ba e leng gore fa ba kwa England le bo le re, “nnyaa batho fa ba senka go sa lese dilo, e ntse e le bana ba Batswana, ba e leng nna dikgokong ba leseng ba nne dikgokong le bo le gore ga ba tseye boikarabelo jwa gore dilo tse le bone ise metsi koo le ye go bolaya park ya lona”. E re le ke tsa bone, bagaetsho re lese go iphitlha ka monwana. santse le tshwere bothata go tlhalosetsa batho ba gore, Re tshwanetse ra bona gore, bana ba rona ba a dira, rona kwano re dumela gore bana botlhe ba Botswana pele ga re tla go ema fa re opela pina ya ntlhomogelang ba neelwe thuto ka tekatekanyo. E re fa re palelwa e pelo. Re sa laya bana kwa ntle gore re ya go le buelela, bo e le gore bana ba Batswana, ba rona ba dipampiri, mme le lona tlhwaafalang. ke bone ba ntlha go ya le batho bao, ba bangwe e le mapolotiki ba bo ba apara dikipara di kwadilwe Steven Bana ba rona ba a lesa Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Corry, ke sone sekai se ke se buang Mokaulengwe. Palamente, ba ratile go ja thata. Nna kwa kgaolong e Mma ke fete mo go eo. ke tswang kwa go yone, ke a ba bolelela Rraetsho ga ke ba lobele. Fa gotwe supervise, we do not supervise Kgang ya me ya bobedi ke gore, mma e re re tla go ke gore bogolo ke je le maChina one a, ke direle leba dikgang tse, re lebe gore golo mo ke ditlhabololo. lefatshe la gaetsho. Selo se ga re a tshwanela go se Re tshwanetse ra di dira ka mabaka a a re siametseng fitlha se. Re a itse gore se a diragala. Boemong jwa rona. Ke go leboge Tona gore o rile Batswana botlhe gore rotlhe re le mapalamente re se itse, re se kgaleme, ba gokele ka P5000. A itsane selo seo, re tshwanetse re ga re se kgalemele. Re tlile go ema fa re kgoba Tona le phathi ya ga Domkrag, re ikopelele dipoko ka gore yo o tlileng go kopa loan. Kana ke sone se e rileng gatwe re bo nngabe ga re utlwe. Mme mo go e rra o kgantele fa mongwe Honourable Member a bua, ke bo berekile go utlwetse, gore Batswana ba tle ba kgone go ke re bogolo a re ganeng ka gore fa re ya go aga re gokela motlakase. Go sena mathata a gore yo mongwe ya go tsosa a mangwe gape mathata. Jaanong, gore re o bokgakala jo bo kafe le pale ya motlakase. tshabe mathata a, ke gore re seka ra adima sepe re lese, re nne fela re lebagane le mo go senyegileng. Ke tshwanetse ya re ke bua kgang e gape ka re, ke selo se se eletsegang gore bana ba Batswana ba tle ba imone Bagaetsho mathata a lefatshe le ga se a ga mangmang. menwana le bone. Rre Kedikilwe o kile wa dirisa sengwe Bana ba ba senyang ba ke bana ba rona rotlhe, bana ba sekai fa gore, kana ga se gore gore o nne le bosupi jwa Batswana ba go tweng ba supervise ga ba supervise ba gore o tlaa tsholelwa, e re fela fa pitsa e tlhatlewa o bo lesitse, mme re le teng. Dikompone tse dingwe tse di o ikgara fa go yone. O bone gore tota e a butswa o boa senyang tse e le tsa Batswana, tse di dirisang madi a o tsholelwa, ka gore o ya go sha. Selo sa ntlha dijo ga di loans, bangwe ba rona ke shareholders mo go tsone. ye go butswa ka gore batho ba tlaa tshaba go go apaya Re tlile go ingwabaya fa re bo re re Domkrag ke yone le phaletshe. Jaanong fa ke bua jaana. e e molato. Nna ke ganana le boitimokanyi. Ka re fa go tlhokega gore madi a a tlang a tlile go dira tiro e re Sekai se sengwe se ke nang le sone, a fa ngwana wa bonang gore re e batla ka moso, gore bana ba rona re tle Motswana a tshwanetse gore a ariwe pelo letsatsi leno, re ba rutele tiro mo go yone. Nna mongwe le mongwe ke gore re re, nnyaa mma re senke ngwana wa Motswana le fa a tswa Bangladesh o tlile go lala a e dirile mo go a mo are ka gore ga re batle go tswa motho ope go sele nna. Ke la me leo lefoko. Kgang e nngwe e e latelang a tla go re tseela madi, ka go bo selo seo re se tlhoka Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ya gore Tona... letsatsi leno. Bagaetsho dilo tse dingwe di tshwana learo la pelo, ga re di tlhoka letsatsi leno. Nna gompieno MR G. SALESHANDO: On a point of clarification dikole di wela bana, barutabana ga gona fa ba nnang Mr Speaker. Minister yo o tlotlegang o bua mafoko a teng. Ga ke dumele gore ke tlaa di bona dikompone mo a botlhoko, mme a tlaa feta fela. Ka na se a se buang lefatsheng le, le fa nne ke ka a bona madi, ba ba tlaa ke gore bangwe ba rona gone fa, ga re a tshwanela go

142 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading bidiwa batho ba ba tlotlegang ka gore re partners mo E bile ope mofetlhi wa motlakase a seka a ya go itirela dikomponeng tse di senyang, re bo re tla re ingwabaa dilo rata. Ditlhwatlhwa tse ba di lopang batho go dirisa gone fa. Ke gore puo e fa o e bua e botlhoko. O ne motlakase, boemong jwa gore di ye kwa tlase, di bo di ya o tshwanetse gore, o tswe fela sentle o gate mang le kwa godimo. Jaanong, ba dule fela mo go rona ra ba lesa mang a bone gore ga go dirwe sentle. dingwaga re sa ba lemoge. Mokgwa wa bone ba na le go kekela batho ba ba itirelang ka bonosi. Fa goromente a ka MS VENSON-MOITOI: O ntladitse ke a leboga nna le fa a tshwarang teng, go nne le mokgwa wa teseletso Mokaulengwe. A o ka kwano kana o ka koo, yo o ya privatisation o o tlaa dirang gore re seka ra gorometsa dirang jalo o tshwanetse gore a kgojwe ka gore, go ditsotlhe ka gore re tlaa bo re ba neela le benefits tsa these senngwa madi a Batswana ba ba duelang lekgetho ke loans, tse e leng tsa lefatshe la Botswana. le mongwe wa bone. MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): On MS VENSON-MOITOI: Ee Rra, tshenyo ke tshenyo. a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Ke a leboga Fa gotwe supervision ya project re tswa go adima madi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke re ke jaana, e re re sena go adima madi… tlhalose ke papamatse gore, ga gona maikaelelo ape a gore Botswana Power Corporation kana Botswana HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... Water Utilities be privatized kana di isiwe kwa bathong ba sele. Se se diragalang, jaaka maloba go a bo go ne MS VENSON-MOITOI: O a bo a simolola go ntse go phatlaladiwa motlakase le lefatshe le lotlhe, Dumelang. bontsi jwa dikompone tse di phatlalatsang motlakase o MR SPEAKER: The problem is you waste your time o mo metseng ya rona, ke dikompone tsa Batswana. Ke by these side remarks. tsone tse go dirwang jalo. One o o fetlhwang kwa ole, fa re tlaa bo re setse re o phatlalatsa le lefatshe le lotlhe MS VENSON-MOITOI: Ee Rra, fa re tswa go adima le kwa le yang teng, go dira dikompone tsa Batswana e le gore re tsile go aga jaaka re tsile go aga jaana, ba ba itsiweng ke mang le mang. kompone ya Motswana e e tsenngwang fa e senya, heelang! A go bolelwe gore kompone ya ga mangmang HONOURABLE MEMBER: ... (Inaudible)... ke yone e e tswang go re digela. Ga go thuse sepe gore, MR KEDIKILWE: Nnyaa, re a bo re rotloetsa ba ba re nne botswerere kwa ganong re sa tseye dikgato mo diyang tiro gore ba dire tiro ka gore, ga go thuse sepe ba selong. Re le Mapalamente re na le boikarabelo, re bangwe ba sa dire sentle, re bo re didimala fela. Ba ba tshwanetse dikgato tse ra di tsaya. dirang sentle, re a bolela gore nnyaa mme kompone ya Ntlha ya boraro e ke neng ke e bua, go na le bo DCEC gore, ya gore, e dira sentle, ba bangwe ba bo ba nne ba le ba bangwe ga ke itse kwa ba berekelang teng. Go na tlhatlosiwe maemo jaana. Fa e le gore jaanong sengwe le kgang ya gore ba Lephata la Kgotetso Rra jaaka o le sengwe se a latolwa, kgantele o fitlhela o sa itse gore tswa o adima jaana, e bo e le gore ba tsile go tsenya mo tota mosola wa go leka go tlhalosa ke eng. Ke a leboga. gotweng ba ba ikemetseng ka nosi, ba e leng bafetlhi MS VENSON-MOITOI: Ke lebogile thata ba motlakase. Ke dumela gore goromente jaaka a ya go Mokaulengwe. Kana dilo tse fa gongwe fa re di adima jaana, re ya go adima ka leina la Palamente e, le bua Rra, fa o re elucidation ke a bo ke leboga gore ka leina la Batswana botlhe. o ntlatse ka gore tse dingwe tse di a buiwa. Se se Ke go kope, ke gore fa ke dipadi disha ka gore ke santse botlhoko Batswana ba bo ba utlwa gone moo fela jaaka ke tswa kwa Telecommunications, kwa ke neng ka Honourable Matambo a ne a bua kgantele, gongwe e bona sengwe se batla go kgabola sa mofuta o. Ke re, fa bile e le mo go fapogileng. Tlhaloso ya gago jaaka o go ntse jaana, a re direng gore madi a a adimilweng a a e bua jaana, yone ga e ye go tswa ka gore e tlhokisa tlaa bong a aga yone base kana pitsa, kana pidisetso ya bangwe tiro ka gore, ke dilo tse go sa tshamekiweng ka motlakase, e seka ya ba ya re, we are going to privatise tsone. Mma ke seka ka ya go ba kopela motlakase le fa sepe se e leng sa setshaba. Ke re ke latlhele fela foo. ke le Mokhanselara kana Mopalamente wa bone gore, Go na le those we can privatise ba ba tsenang ba ba tle ba tlhoboge goromente wa ga Domkrag. tsena, mme go na le fa goromente a tshwanetseng gore Ke ka gore fa ke ka kopela motlakase wa tsena, ba tloga a itshetlele teng. Fa letsatsi le ya go phirima selo sa ba tshuba ba bo ba bona gore o teng, ba bo ba bona Bakgatla, re tshwanetse ra tsaya boikarabelo jwa gore gore ga ke na tiro. Jaanong, mathata a go tsamaisa puso motlakase o a goroga, o a anamisiwa mo lefatsheng le ka polotiki ke one ao. E bile re itse ka polotiki e e nang re le puso.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 143 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading le kganetso. Ke a tle ke ipotse ka mafatshe a a ganang motlakase. Ba amogetse gore nnyaa, re tlaa nna re re diphathi tsa kganetso. Ke gone ke lemogang gore, ba a taitai malatsinyana. Mabuo ke selelo sa phuranyo ya bo ba dirwa ke eng. Ba a bo ba dirwa ke gore, batho ba meno ka gore ba three kilometers out of the grid. They e leng gore ga ba na mabaka a a tletseng a go ganetsa, are the last inhabited village before the Central Kalahari ba a bo ba go ganeletsa fela gore ba reile batho ba re, Game Reserve (CKGR). Ga gona le fa e le ope motlakase re ya go ba ganetsa. Go ganetsa mo gongwe o ya go kwa ga bone, o ba o bonang o, o ka fa botlhabatsatsi. ganetsa le se se go siametseng. Rraetsho, e bile ke batho ba letso la Sesarwa. Potso ya bone e nngwe fela, ba re, a ga ba fiwe motlakase ka go Jaaka gompieno gotwe o seka wa bo wa tlhola o dira bo e le Masarwa ne? jaana ke labofelo, mme le maloba o ne a ntse a rialo. Bogologolo ke santse ke mo itse Honourable Mmolotsi MR KEDIKILWE: On a point of clarification Mr ga ke itse gore o ile kae, ke ne ke ka bo ke mo arabile Speaker. sentle. Jaanong, malatsing ano ga ke mo tshware sentle gore o opela pina e gotweng. MR SPEAKER: Clarification sort on that point of Masarwa. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, kgang e tona tota e re tshwanetseng ra itebaganya nayo as ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TRADE AND Honourable Members, fa go adimiwa yes, re na le INDUSTRY (MR MOTOWANE): On a point of order tshwanelo e e tletseng bagaetsho go botsa Honourable Mr Speaker. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Matambo gore Rra, a ga o re rekise? Ke tshwanelo, le Palamente. Ke kopa gore ke e tseye ka tlhamalalo gore ene ke itse gore ke selo se a se amogelang. Re seka a ga ke a utlwa Tona wa Thuto le wena Mr Speaker ya re fa re mo kopa jalo, re bo re mo kopa jaaka e o re, “on that point of Masarwa.” Surely, the time kete re mo kopile, o ganne, e bile o tlhola a gana ka has come to be clear gore, a go na le Masarwa le information. Fa gongwe go kgoba marapo. Makgalagadi mo lefatsheng le? So, a ke ne ke utlwa wena Mr Speaker o re, “on that point of Masarwa,” Nna ke bona go tlhamaletse fela gore re late. Fa o ka kana ke ne ke utlwa Tona ya Thuto? Fa e le gore ke ne lata Honourable Matambo kwa ofising o sena go bona ke utlwa mongwe wa lona, a ke sengwe se re batlang Notice Paper, a bo a feta a gana ka information, kana se tswelela se nna teng, go na le kitso ya Masarwa, ke gone re ka tlang ra bua ka lekgobo le re buang ka Makalaka le Makgalagadi? lone mo Ntlong e. Batho ba Modimo le re romile tiro e bokete. Jaanong, fa o re o ema fa, o re o buelela batho MR SPEAKER: Nnyaa mme a mangwe ao ga re ise all for P24,000 a month, o bo o buisiwa jaaka ke ntse ke re a bue. Honourable Minister, are you going to save bona Honourable Matambo a buisiwa, tota go botlhoko the situation? mo go maswe. Bagaetsho, fa e le gore go a ganediwa MS VENSON-MOITOI: No, I am not saving. Ke ee, ganetsa mme se re nyemiseng moko. Le mme re ka tlhalosetsa Mokaulengwe gore nna e rile fa ke bala leke fa re ka lekang teng, e re go pala re palelwe jaaka ‘a’ ka 1958, re ne re rutilwe Setswana gore go na le batho ka gore, fa re le mo Ntlong e nna ke aga ke bua ditlhopha di le some. Go bo go twe ‘mo/ba’ ke merafe jaana, ga re a tla kwa maboaneng a sepolotiki. Se e leng ya Setswana speaking tribes. Go bo gotwe ‘mo/ma’ ke gore re se tsisitse fa ke gore, re buisanye fa gongwe le merafe e e mo Botswana e mengwe, e ne e ntse jalo. Go tle le re gakolola, re gakololane. Jaanong, mathata ke bo gotwe ‘le/ma’, ke merafe ya mafatshe a mangwe. E gore, gongwe fa ba gakolotse bangwe ba tsaya gore go ntse jalo bagaetsho, re rutwa. Jaanong, mo malatsing ano tlaa twe go tshelwa ka megopolo ya bone. Rraetsho it is politically correct gore o re Basarwa, o re Jaanong sa bofelo Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Bakgalagadi. Fa o bua in the hit of the moment, chances Palamente, Rraetsho Kedikilwe o bo o reeditse gore are that you follow that which your instinct and what your ke ne ke go buelela Rra. Ke go buelela jaana ka gore, training has given you. Jaanong, fa e le gore go molato batho ba Mabuo kwa ba teng ba ntheeditse. Jaanong, Rraetsho gore Masarwa, ke ka le boela kwa morago, ke fa ke ka go sireletsa, ka bo ka bua jaaka ke ntse ke bua, sa ipone molato Rraetsho gore, ke re Basarwa, mo go ke bo ke araba Rre Saleshando jaaka ke ntse ke mo Mokaulengwe, for his benefit and comfort. araba, e bo e re fa motlakase o tla, o bo o nna o bowa MR KEDIKILWE: Ke leboga go menaganye fa Moiyabana o sa goroga kwa Mabuo ke sule. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke ne ke re HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le kwa Mogatsapoo. Modimo yo o ratileng, ka di 29 tsa kgwedi yone e ke tlaa bo ke le kwa Mabuo. Karabo e ke yang go e naya MS VENSON-MOITOI: Nnyaa, Mogatsapoo ga re kwa Mabuo e tshwana le karabo e ke tlaa e nayang kwa gongwe re ka leka. Mogome, Mokgware o ba solofeditse Makunda, Gunitsuga le ba bangwe ba ba ka amegang

144 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading ka sebopego se se ntseng jalo. Seemo se re mo go ke adima ke ya go ema fa kae. Sa boraro, ke adime ke sone gompieno, go sa lejwe gore a motlakase o feta fa ya go dira eng. Fa, re adimela tiro e e leng gore e kgona godimo, jaaka fa metsi a feta fa godimo kwa Tswapong go dira madi a mangwe, e e ka kgonang gore e ituelele. le kwa Mmadinare le dikgaolo tse dingwe mme a sa Ga re adime madi a a tlaa yang go aga selo se se tlaa goroge kwa Kgalagadi so far. Ke gone gore jaanong, bong e le sa mokgabisa fela kana for posterity, se sena yone metse e e fetwang ke motlakase fa godimo, le tlaa any direct income generated into the fisc. tshwanelwa ke gore le nthuse. Ka mafoko a a kalo Rraetsho, ke lebogile mme ke ema Re ipotse gore gompieno re batla go thusa ka motlakase, Mokaulengwe nokeng. re o oketsa kwa Maun, gore o tle o kgone go thusa go fetlha tiro ya kopore kwa Sehithwa. Go tlhoka gore ke MR ARONE (OKAVANGO): Thank you Mr Speaker. o oketse. Gompieno o tlhaela kwa Shakawe, mme go I would be very brief and make it clear that I personally ya go nna senior secondary school e e nang le batho ba support the request put forth by the Minister with the ba tlaa bong ba feta 2000. A madi ao fa ke ne ke ka a hope that the Rural Electrification Programme that is bona, a ke a dirise go gokela metse e motlakase o fetang ongoing in my constituency, Okavango, North of the fa godimo ga one? Kana fa ke ne ke ka a bona, ke ne ke Delta, would be completed well in time. ka oketsa motlakase kwa Maun, o tle o akofe o ye kwa Mr Speaker, the Honourable Minister was concerned Sehithwa le Shakawe o le tsopana, kana ke dire jang? about Honourable Members being repetitive. Those of us Ke kgakololo e e tshwanetseng gore e tswe mo go lona. who come from the teaching fraternity whole heartedly Sengwe sone se tshwanetse, ga re kake ra gokela agree that, that is a very important method of teaching metsana yotlhe e motlakase o fetang fa godimo ga yone. especially when you are dealing with students who are Ra bo ra leka go thusa gore, batho ba tle le fa one o ne o slow learners. Being repetitive then would help them to ka thusa kwa metsaneng eo le meepo ya rona. Re batla understand. As I have made it clear, Mr Speaker, I do itsholelo ya rona gore re e kabakanye. Re seka ra ikaega not want to impute any improper motives in this House ka diteemane fela. Batho ba nne ba bone ditiro gore fa but as we made it clear that some of the comments… go nna jaana, se se molemo ke eng? Ka gore gone kwa, MR SPEAKER: But you are indirectly imputing ke tlaa tshwanelwa ke gore ke dirise botswerere jo ke ka improper motives. bo kgonang ke sa go kgopakgopetse. Batho bale le bone ke sa ba utlwise botlhoko. Go botlhokwa thata gore fela MR ARONE: Some of the comments Honourable jaana ba Mmadinare ba ne ba bolelelwa boammaruri Minister in this House were made long back and they jwa gore ke eng metsi a ya kwa Gaborone le Palapye, are still being repeated advising the same government. mme a sa goroge kwa metseng e mengwe ya bone. Then it means that people have realised that we are dealing with a government that … MS VENSON-MOITOI: Nnyaa, ke utlwile Mokaulengwe, mme le Setswana le sone sa re, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Have small minds. “mmamotho o amuwa le a sule.” O amuwa fela a ntse MR ARONE: It is not me, it is him but he is correct. a sa tshikhinyega ka go bo o fa. Ke leboga thata, mma ke seka ka ne e kete ke a go nyatsa Mokaulengwe, This is the problem. That is why then it turns that ka e bile o tlaa bo o le kwa Mabuo Rraetsho. Nna le people now have to become repetitive. nna go tlaa ntimolela melelo gore ba ye go ikutlwela mo go wena gore mathata a fa kae. Rraetsho ke lekile Mr Speaker, we have a problem in Shakawe as go tlhalosa, mme kana fa o tlhalosetsa batho, o bo o Honourable Minister Kedikilwe has alluded to with the tlhalosa, o bo o tlhalosa, kgantele fa ditlhopho di ntse electricity that we have that comes from Namibia. The di atumela o ntse o tlhalosa, ke falotse gabedi, ga ke power cuts that we experience in that area is a crisis bone gore ke ka falola la boraro mong wa me. because it affects our local businesses. Sometimes you would go into these supermarkets and find them trying Jaanong, ke ne ke re Rraetsho, madi a, Bakaulengwe, to cook and boil all the meat that they have because nna ke a le kopa gore re eme Tona nokeng a ye go there is no electricity from Namibia. Sometimes adima. Kadimo e, batho ba ba itseng madi ba bolela funeral arrangements are changed because the people gore, fa gongwe madi a a adimilweng a botoka go from the mortuaries will be calling you to come and gaisa o kgaritlha polokelo ya gago. Go bua ba ba itseng take your corpses for early burials simply because tsamaiso ya madi, nna ga ke e itse sentle. Ke sone se o there is no electricity. So, it is a crisis. That is why I bonang tshakala e tlaa swa e humanegile jaana. Mme am supporting this request. le gone go adima, o adime o na le tlhaloganyo ya gore

Hansard No 163 Part 4 145 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading Though I had reservations as Honourable Mmolotsi repaired regularly because of the continuous usage of has alluded to earlier on, sometimes when you are a the poor machine. So, it is a hope. failing parent you may as well sometimes accept that you would live on asking from your neighbours. It is We are simply saying, those of us who come from the part of life. I support this Bill with the hope that areas peripheral areas in this country, we want to encourage like Tobere, Shaikarabo would also in the long run, the government. This word we do not like these days, Honourable Minister, be given the electricity so that but we have to encourage them that as we talk about their lives also would be improved because we are not service provision, please let us also make it a point simply talking about... that we reach out because it has taken so long 45 years, for some of us to see a pole of electricity. Forty MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND five years is a long period. So, we are simply saying WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): On let us try and expedite some of these things as we a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Kana ga go na move on Mr Speaker. ketsaetsego epe gore Tobera, Beetsha, Kaputura le mafelo a mangwe kgabagare fa go kgonega re ise I just wanted to also thank Honourable Kedikilwe that motlakase koo, eo ga se yone kgang. Go dira dipitsa at least you have reached out to villages north of the tsa phetlho ya motlakase mo Morupule, ga go ka ke river with the Rural Electrification Programme. ga re tlhomamisetsa gore re tlaa goroga kwa Makunda HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa, o seka wa mo le kwa Gunitsoga ka gore madi a go buiwang ka one leboga. gompieno, ke a go fetlha motlakase mo Morupule. Madi a go isa motlakase o tswa mo Morupule o ya kwa MR ARONE: No, let me just thank him, Honourable Maun, go tswa mo go reng e tlaa bo e le wa bokete jo Saleshando, because in fact, he has made an effort to bo kae. Dipalo tse gompieno ke nang natso ke tse di see to it that even Gudigwa would get electricity. We supang gore, go o goga kwa Morupule go o isa kwa are very thankful of that. With those few remarks, I Maun, ga go ka ke ga nna kwa tlase ga P1 billion. Go thank you. tswa mo go reng re tlaa bo re batla wa selekanyo se MR MANGOLE (KGATLENG WEST): Mma ke go se kae o o tlaa bong o fetela kwa Shakawe gore, re leboge Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, le nna ke seka ra tsaya motlakase kwa Namibia. Tseo dipalo ke latlhele la mmotlana. Tota kgang kgolo kwa bofelong ka di supa go le mo pepeneneng. Ke raya gore batho jwa letsatsi e le go amogela kopo ya ga Tona ya go ba Gunitsoga le ba Kaputura ba seka ba tloga ba tsaya rebola kadimo ya madi a a builweng fa. Ke tshwanelo, gore, ka gore go amogelwa madi a go fetlha motlakase Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente gore fa re bewa kwa Morupule, go tlaa bo go raya gore go tswa foo go kopo ya go nna jaana pele, re gololesege go ntsha tlaa bo go le mo pepeneneng gore motlakase o tlaa ya matshwenyego otlhe a re ka tswang re na le one. Ka kwa go bone. Ao ke a sele. tumelo le keletso ya gore e tlaa re fa goromente a dirafatsa MR SPEAKER: Before you stand up Honourable maikaelelo a gagwe a go anamisa motlakase, gongwe Member, I have just decided to allow you to respond, matshwenyego a rona a gakolole golo gongwe, gongwe Honourable Kedikilwe in the spirit of rwadisanyang dikgakololo tsa rona di tsewe tsia golo gongwe. merwalo because you are not the Minister who Go lemosege Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente presented the chapter this afternoon. I have just allowed gore, ga se ka lesotlo le ka mowa ope, ke ka mowa you for that sake. wa gore kwa bofelong jwa letsatsi se se kopiwang fa MR ARONE: In fact Mr Speaker, with due respect, I pele ga rona, se solegele molemo setshaba sa rona sa do not know the purpose that the clarification serves Botswana ka kakaretso. Fa go na pelaelo Motlotlegi because I was talking about hope. Those of us who go to gore mathata a re leng mo go one a tlhaelo ya motlakase church, when you are hoping, you are praying. So, when e e kanakana e, a tshwanelwa ke gore a lwantshiwe. I say I hope I entirely agree with the Minister that God MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Taking heed of that willing, the expansion would assist us reach even far side remark and my Clerks have just confirmed, we places that we have never reached, by supplying them are not quorated. Honourable Maele, can you serve as with electricity so that their lives also would improve in Chief Whip? terms of having businesses established. Back home, it has been very difficult to run businesses simply because Honourable Mangole, you are holding the floor. I hope of the cost that comes with using gas to run a fridge in you will be as brief as the Honourable Member for a bar or using a generator that you would be switching Okavango. off time and again. This is because it also needs to be

146 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading MR MANGOLE: Ke a leboga Motlotlegi. Ke ne ke Ga ke ye kgakala Motlotlegi, ke tsena mo kgaolong santse ke rialo ke re, ga go na pelaelo ya gore tlhaelo e e ya me ya Kgatleng West le ya ga morwarre Mabiletsa kanakana ya motlakase e lefatshe la rona mo dingwageng ka fa Kgatleng East. Ke lebelela kgaolo e tshwana tse di seng kaenyana tse di sa tswang go feta e le le Dikgonnye, Kgomodiatshaba, Oliphants Drift/ bonyeng, ke matshwenyego thata a re tshwanelwang ke Ramotlabaki. Ke dikgaolo tse e leng gore motlakase o gore re dumele re bo re tlatse Tona. Ke lebogile thata, e ile kwa go tsone, re leboga puso go menaganye, dipale bile fa ke utlwa a bua gore thulaganyo e ya Morupule B di dikologile di tsene di moo. Mathata le letshogo le re e tlaa bo e dirwa ka potlako. Go supa gone gore ke go nang le lone ke gore, ba kae batho ba Kgomodiatshaba, arabela matshwenyego a re leng mo go one. Dikgonnye, Ramotlabaki/Oliphants Drift, ba ba ileng go kgona go ntsha P5,000.00 go tsenya motlakase mo Re tshwanelwa ke gore re lemoge kwa bofelong jwa malwapeng a bone. letsatsi, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, gore madi a, a tshwanelwa ke go duelwa. Go duelwa ga Re na le letshogo la gore maikaelelo a mantle a puso a P30 million o, re lebeletse badirisi ba motlakase go atumetsa motlakase kwa bathong, a ka nna a felela a gore, ke bone ba ba yang go duela madi a. Ka gore foloditse, ba o lebeletse fela. Tumelo ya me Motsamaisa kwa bofelong jwa letsatsi ba tshwanelwa ke gore ba Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ke gore, a Botswana Power dirise motlakase o, ba o reke mo Botswana Power Corporation (BPC) e bule dikgoro, e amogele these Corporation (BPC). Ke lemogile gore, Motlotlegi, go ordinary people. E le batho ba e leng gore ba ka na le badirisi, re ka aroganya badirisi kana baji bareki tsaya market wa bone wa tiriso ya motlakase ba o isa ba motlakase wa BPC ka dikarolo di le tharo. Karolo kwa godimo. A gongwe Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa ya ntlha kana setlhopha sa ntlha e le the public sector. Palamente... Karolo ya bobedi ke private companies, ya boraro e bo e nna Batswana ba Modimo, households. MR SPEAKER: Sorry Honourable Mangole. Order! Order! Honourable Members until and unless of Itemogelo ya me, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa course my expression of “rwadisanyang merwalo” Palamente ke gore, go na le one sector of this market e was not taken in all the spirit of kindness, then we go lebegang e kete BPC, ga e e tlhoke mo go kalokalo. will be heading somewhere else. Please Honourable Re a itse gore goromente ga go na mathata ape, a o baya Kedikilwe, feel free to clarify. rates dife tsa motlakase kana o baya dife, goromente o tlaa duela. Re a itse gore the private companies di MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND tlaa kgona go duela. E bo e le gore jaanong BPC e WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): On a tsaya gore fa clients kana customers tsa bone tse di point of clarification Mr Speaker. Ke ne ke re gongwe tshepegang, e leng goromente le private companies, di ke utlwile Mokaulengwe sentle ka go bua ka fa le teng, gongwe ordinary Motswana ga a botlhokwa ditlhwatlhwa gompieno di leng godimo ka teng mme go le kalokalo. Ke buisiwa se ke gore, go santse go le le dikgato tse re di tsayang go fokotsa. Fa go setse go dingalo gore Motswana a gokele motlakase mo lwapeng tla kwa gotweng P5,000.00 le ene o kwa godimodimo, la gagwe, ditlhwatlhwa tsa BPC di kwa godimo. se ke ka se botsang ke gore, ba go buiwang ka bone, a gatwe ba seka ba duela? Nna mathata a ke nang Ke batla gore ke leboge goromente jaaka Tona a setse a nao ke gore, one a gotweng a seka a duelwa, ke gore lebogile Minister gore, mme kwa bofelong jwa letsatsi, pharologanyo ya P5,000.00 le se e leng tlhwatlhwa ya tsibogo e nnile teng. Ya gore go na le gore Motswana boammaaruri ya go tsenya motlakase, potso ya me ke gotwe ntsha P40,000.00 go gokela motlakase, puso ya gore one ao, re ya go a tsaya kae? Ke selo go dirilwe Botswana Democratic Party (BDP), e e tlaa reng mo letlole le re tlaa bong re kokotleletsa mo go lone, lone nakong e e sa fediseng pelo gongwe ke bo ke kobilwe le le la 5thebe per kilowatts hour. Jaanong, fa e le gore mo go yone, re e akgole. Ke ikakgole ke le puso ka gore, bone bao ba gotweng ga ba kake ba kgona P5,000.00, nako e ke santse ke le bontlha bongwe jwa ga Domkrag madi a bone re a tseye kae? A re a oketse, boemong jwa mo malatsinyaneng a sekaenyana a a tlang, gore re bo gore e nne 5thebe per kilowatts hour mo fund, kana re fokoditse ditlhwatlhwa di ile kwa go P5,000.00. Ke re dire 20thebe kana P1.00? Di tshwanetse gore di maiteko, ke kgatelelopelo e tona go gatela pele mo go arabege gore, one mme re ya go a tsaya kae, jang. atumetseng motlakase kwa Batswaneng. MR MANGOLE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke santse ke tsa Palamente, ke a leboga Tona. Gongwe fa ke ne ke tlhobaela gore, a mme P5,000.00 yo tota yo, ba le tsweletse, e ne e tlaa re kwa pele bontlha bongwe jwa bantsi Batswana ba tlaa mo kgona. karabo ya potso le letshwenyego la ga Tona e nne teng.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 147 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading Ke ne ke santse ke rialo ke re gongwe, a BPC e atlarele motlakase instead of P5,000.00, ke duela P1,000.00, market o wa the ordinary man, the ordinary person. Ka ke incentive mo mothong gore a tsenye motlakase mo gore tumelo ya me ke gore ke market o motona thata, o lwapeng la gagwe. e leng gore BPC fa e ka o tsaya market oo, ya o tsenya ka fa legwafeng la yone, ditlamorago le dipoelo tsa teng ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL e ka nna tse di itumedisang. Keletso ya me ke gore, a GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): On a go nne motlhofotlhofo gore, motho a goge motlakase a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Ke ne ke botsa o tsenye mo lwapeng, o sa mo tsenye dingalo. Gongwe Mokaulengwe gore, a thulaganyo e e ntseng e dirwa, yone cost e ya go tsenya motlakase ya P5,000.00 e, re ya gore gongwe motho a bo a ka ntsha madinyana a a e fokoditse gongwe re re re ntsha P2,000.00 fela. Re rileng, a bo a tloga a nna a ntse a duela mo dingwageng bo re itse gore over time re iketlile jaanong, ka motho tse di rileng, a yone ga a bone gore e siame nee? Ka gore o tlaa bo a dirisa motlakase. Re a e tsaya re e tsenya motho o a bo a setse a itse gore o tshwana le fa a tsere gongwe mo tirisong yone ya motlakase, mo tuelong e furniture kwa lebentleng a itse gore ke ntshitse deposit motho a tlaa bong a reka motlakase ka yone. Gongwe mme ke duela bokana, e bile e ga e na interest. ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, go ka thusa gore batho ba le MR MANGOLE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa bantsintsi le ba ba dikobodikhutshwane, ba kgone gore Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke a lemoga gore ba tsenye motlakase ba o dirise. Mme kanamo le tiriso thulaganyo eo e teng. Selo se se salang mo bofelong ya motlakase e nne ntsi le madi a ba kgonang gore ba a jwa letsatsi fa go tla mo tlhaloganyong ya Motswana bone e bo e le a mantsi. gore, banna ke ya go duela P5,000.00. P5,000.00 ke ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL a dumela bagaetsho gore, ke santse ke ipoeletsa, re AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION tsere kgato, it is a giant step forward mo go tsweng (MR M. E. MASISI): On a point of clarification kwa go bo P50,000.00 go ya kwa go P5,000.00, I Mr Speaker. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo, must not be misinterpreted, re tsere kgato e tona. Se ke a leboga Mokaulengwe. Ke ne ke eletsa gore ke lekang go se bua ke gore, a BPC e tseye steps tse Mokaulengwe a re tlhalosetse gore, a jaaka a bua a re dingwe to expand its clientele. Ke gore go kgonagale madi a ka fokodiwa a go gokela motlakase, a nna bo gore le motho yo e leng gore kwa bofelong jwa P2,000.00 a bo a tla a tsewa mo mogokeding morago letsatsi bagaetsho o amogela P500.00 ka kgwedi, mo ga sebaka. A o bua e le kakanyo kante ke se e leng gore nakong e a bonang gore ga ke kake ka kgona gore ke o ntse fatshe a tlhakanya dipalo a bona gore fa go ka ye go ntsha deposit ya P900.00, ke bo ke re kgwedi nna jaana go ka riana, le bodiphatsa jo bo mo go leng le kgwedi ke bo ke duela P300.00 wa motlakase. A go leka jalo bo tsentswe mo teng? Ke a leboga. bone gore go motlhofo gore a ka tsenya motlakase mo lwapeng a nna a reka token eo. BPC e tlaa bo e na le MR MANGOLE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo market o mo tona, e tlaa bo e ka kgona gore le yone tsa Palamente. Ke tsaya gore... economies of scale mo go phatlalatseng motlakase wa yone, e fitlhelele koo. That is all I am trying to say. MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Ke ne ke re Motlotlegi mopalamente Rre MS TSHIRELETSO: On a point of further Mangole a ntlhalosetse gore, a nee o raya gore, gongwe clarification Mr Speaker. Ke a leboga Rra. Ke gore re tsamaele kwa seemong se se tshwanang le ssa bo Mokaulengwe o bua tlhaloganyo, mme jaanong se se Mascom le Orange. Se e leng gore o neelwa handset e ntshwenyang ke gore, tlhaloganyo e ke bona ekete fa bo e le gore fa o ntse o duela bills jaana, go raya gone a ka e sekaseka thata, gongwe e ya go nna bokete. Ka gore moono o a tswelela. gore, fa e le gore motho o tshaba go ntsha deposit, mme fa a ya go dirisa motlakase, tiriso ya motlakase ka fa re MR MANGOLE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo itseng ka teng e tura, a mme go raya gore o tlaa kgona tsa Palamente. Tota e bile Mokaulengwe wa bofelo o go boa a duela ale gape a e leng gore a mo go yone? nkarabetse Motlotlegi ka fa, gore kwa bofelong jwa Ke raya gore for instance, fa re bua ka bo Mascom letsatsi a re nneng le thotloetso ya gore batho ba le ka fa go ntseng ka teng, go nna turu ka gore go na le bantsi ba tsenye motlakase. Fa ba o tsentse, tiriso madinyana a e leng gore o tlaa bo o a duela mo teng. ya one ga go na Motswana ope yo o ka batlang gore E bile ke promotion kana bone tota ba a bo ba batla go a nne le motlakase o le mo ntlong ya gagwe a sa o rekisa. Ke batla go itse gore a o raya gore go na le gore dirise. Ka tsela e e ntseng jalo, go ne go sa tlhokafale motho a duele bonnyennyane ka kgwedi jo bo senang mo go kalokalo gore, ke nne fa fatshe and calculate, interest a ntsha deposit tse di potlana, e bile go santse Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke tsaya gore go na le go ikgobokanya, a ga go a lekana go gaisa o simple logic fela ya gore motho a re fa ke tsenyediwa ka kolota mo go feletseng? Ka gore o a itse gore kwa

148 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading furniture shops ka bo Christmas, jaana ke no deposit. tshwanetse gore re di kanoke ntlha tsotlhe. Gape kana O ya go duela madi a a boitshegang go sena deposit tse maikaelelo ke gore, re bo re tshwara 80 percent mo o di ntshitseng. lekgolong mo bathong ba ba tlaa bong ba gokela. Gape tsholofelo e ne e le gore ga se mongwe le mongwe yo o MR MANGOLE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa ka kgonang. Gompieno tota dipotsane di le kalonyana, Palamente, ntle ke leboge Mokaulengwe. Tumelo ya me kgongwana e le nngwe fela, e kgona gore e ka go direla. ke gore, kwa bofelong jwa letsatsi, fa e le gore ke ntse Fa gotwe e tlhaetse bone bo 2,000 mme o ka kgona go ke reka motlakase P10.00 wa selekanyo se se rileng, o duela mo sebakeng. Go tswa mo go rona Bakaulengwe ke tshubang ka one mo ntlong ya me kgwedi. E bo e nna gore tota motlakase o, a re ka seka ra dira jaana gore gore BPC e tsenya P1.00 kana P1.50 mo godimo gore e Batswana ba nne ba duele sengwenyana; Palamente nne P11.50, ke gore thotloetso ya go gokela motlakase e ka rebola gore nnyaa, a subsidy e nne bokana. Go mo lwapeng ke duela madi a a kwa tlase, e fekeediwa ke motlhofo fela go le kalo, ke a leboga. thotloetso ya go reka motlakase o ke neng ke o reka ka P10.00. Jaanong ke o reka ka P1.50 fa godimo ka gore o MR MANGOLE: Ke lebogela tlhaloso ya ga Tona, teng mo lwapeng ke a o dirisa. mme Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, kwa bofelong jwa letsatsi, se ke se buang ke gore, motlakase Ke dumela gore fa BPC market wa yone kana badirise a o aname le lefatshe lotlhe la Botswana. A batho ba ba motlakase ba aname le lefatshe le lotlhe, spreading le bantsi ba kgone gore ba dirise motlakase. BPC e of that cost e e fokoditsweng ke BPC, batho ga ba kake kgone go bula market wa yone. They should explore ba utlwa bokete jwa yone, fa badirise ba motlakase ba all the possibilities tsa gore market o bulege. Ke santse le bantsi mo lefatsheng ba kgonne gore ba gokelelwe ke ntse ke ipoeletsa, ga ke dumele gore ke dikgaolo motlakase. Ke se ke lekang go se bua seo Motsamaisa tsa me tsa Kgomodiatshaba le Dikgonnye le ya ga Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. E bile tumelo ya me ke Rraetsho Mabiletsa ya Oliphant’s Drift tse re ipotsang gore, yone thulaganyo eo, fa BPC e ka kgona gore e e gore a di tlile go kgona. Dikgaolo di teng tse dintsi diragatse, motlakase o nne affordable mo Batswaneng mo lefatsheng la Botswana. P5,000 yo re ileng kwa ba ba seng kana ka sepe, yone tlhwatlhwa ya motlakase tlase ka ene, yo re tshogang gore a mme ba tlile go mo ka bo yone because BPC will be generating revenues kgona, ke tsaya gore re tlaa bo re santse re le teng re le tse di seng kana ka sepe, e ka ya kwa. mmogo mo Palamenteng. E tlaa re nako nngwe re bo MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND re dumalana fela ka bongwe fela ba pelo gore gongwe WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): On a re ne ra seka ra leba dilo sentle. point of clarification Mr Speaker. Ke ne ke re gongwe Ke santse ke ipoeletsa gore ke akgola kgato ya puso ya jaaka go ne go buiwa, go tlaare re nne re bue gantsintsi. go busetsa tlhwatlhwa ya motlakase kwa tlase. Mma Kana thulaganyo ya rural electrification scheme, e e ke tswe mo ntlheng eo, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa leng gore batho ba ba dingwaga tse di kwa tlase ga 60 Palamente, ka gone go rialo ke re, jaaka Rre Dumelang ba kgona gore, bone ba duele mo dingwageng di ya Saleshando a tle a bue, a tlhe re bone motlakase o kgona go tshwara bo 15 bo 20. Ga se gore will be cancelled, go tsena le mo mokhukhung fela jaaka kwa South nna ke tsaya gore go itsiwe gore e ntse e teng. Jaanong Africa go kgonafala. A le mo ga rona re kgone go bona le e gotweng e tshwana le ya Mascom, nna ke ne ke mo ntlong ya bojang mo Mosomane, motlakase o tsena tsaya gore ene 5thebe per kilowatt hour in the bill, ka lebaka la gore Motswana o ka kgona gore a tsenye go tshwana fela le gone mo ga gore batho ba nne motlakase mo lefatsheng. ba ketlole go le gonyenyane manokonoko a teng a se kalokalo. Kana ke rile rona fa re bereka dipalo, MR KEDIKILWE: Education. Sone se re se P5,000.00 re bona e le ene yo tota a leng kwa tlase itumelelang seo, ke sone se se digileng Eskom. tlase, re sa re mongwe le mongwe o tlaa mo kgona. Maikaelelo ke gone gore, re tswe mo seemong se re MR MANGOLE: Ke a leboga, Tona. Kwa bofelong leng mo go sone gompieno, sa kgokelelo ya 56.4 per jwa letsatsi, I still maintain my stand. It would do cent ya batho mo dikgaolong gore ba tseye motlakase. BPC good to expand market wa yone gore Batswana Mme le mororo boleng jwa one o feta foo jaaka gone ba le bantsi ba kgone gore ba dirise motlakase. Gape kwa bo Oliphants, maikaelelo ke one ao. re tshwanetse gore re lemoge sengwe. Ga ke re go ntse jalo, but reports that we have heard kwa South Kgang fela ke gone gore gongwe gotwe re boele kwa Africa ke gore, bontlha bongwe jwa selo se se digileng tlase jaanong, kana e nne 1,000 mme 1,000 o tlile go Eskom, go ne go na le boferefere le botsotsi jo bontsi, re tsaya lebaka gore, o kgone go ya go gokela gone jo e leng gore batho ba bantsi ba ne ba dirisa motlakase koo ka gore, ke madi a manyennyane thata. Dilo tse re ba sa o duele kwa South Africa. Mo lefatsheng la rona

Hansard No 163 Part 4 149 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading la Botswana ke tsaya gore ga re na bothata jo bo ntseng can fluctuate kwa godimo ka percentage e e kana, kwa jalo. Those are the lessons tse re tshwanetseng gore re tlase ka percentage e e kana. ithute mo go tsone, re netefatse gore mathata which have been experienced by Eskom, mo lefatsheng la Gongwe le rona re le puso, go tlile mo nakong eo ya rona ga a nne teng. Gone mme ke utlwisisa kgakololo gore jaanong re tlogele mongwe le mongwe a itirele ya gago, Tona. Mma ke fete mo ntlheng eo. joorata ka fa a batlang ka teng. Ba nne fa fatshe boradikonteraka le those international companies tse Ntlha e nngwe e ke eletsang gore ke tsene mo go re tlaa bong re di neetse to bid. Ba ya go kopana kwa yone ka loan e ya P931 million, gongwe ke tlaa wela ba kopanang teng, ba bo ba re ke kwa Botswana kwa, mo mafokong a ga Mokaulegwe Mmolotsi ka fa ke ga go na ope yo o tshwanetseng gore a beye project bapile le ene. Re na le bothata mo lefatsheng la rona. e kwa tlase ga bokana, re bo re fitlhela e le gore re le We have a tendency of over pricing projects tsa rona. lefatshe la Botswana, re jelwe ntsoma. Dikompone, boradikonteraka kana makgotla a a ikemetseng ka nosi ba ba batlang go tla go dira papadi Gongwe nako e tsile Tona ya gore re simolole go mo lefatsheng la Botswana, ba tshelela mo tumelong lebelela the way re ntshang tenders tsa rona ka teng. Re ya gore kwa lefatsheng la Botswana, madi ke ntletse- ipeele seelo jaanong, re hire bomaitseanape ba ba ka ntletse. Fa project e tla e tshwana le e ya Morupule, dirang. Ke tsaya gore re na le bone ga re tlhoke gore re gotwe a tenders di tleng, project e e neng e ka dirwa ka ba hire. Ke gore ba re setseng re na le bone gompieno, P2 billion, e tla e tsamaya kwa mankaleng-nkaleng, ka ke ba ba setseng ba tsene in the mentality wa gore bo P7 billion simply because go direlwa lone lefatshe goromente wa Botswana o na le madi and therefore, la Botswana le koo teng madi e le ntletse-ntletse. Ke ntlo e e ka agiwang ka P200,000 we can afford half a bua se ka gore ke na le experience ya sone ke le kwa million. Re tshwanelwa ke gore re fetole dikakanyo tsa khanseleng dingwaga tse di lesome. Kwa e leng gore go nna jalo, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. ntlo fela e e leng gore e ka agiwa ka P150,000, fa gotwe Ga ke eletse gore ke nne moleele ka gore dintlha tse dintsi tender ke eo, e tlaa e potile half a million ka kwa. Re bomorwarre ba setse ba di buile. Tsa citizen economic bo re tsaya go le motlhofo, re bo re sale re ntse re re empowerment, ba di toutile thata tse ke dumalanang le nnyaa, mme ke yone cost ya teng re le puso. Re bo re bone mo go tsone. Le tsone tsa gore re bone gore even rotloetsa tshenyetso setshaba ka tsela e e ntseng jalo. though we are going to be bidding internationally, we Ke na le pelaelo ya gore gongwe yone project e ya have to force matters. We are a very important client Morupule, madi a re a akanyeditseng gore a ka e dira, ya World Bank. Lefatshe la Botswana le mo seemong re a lebile ka costs tse di inflated; e ka felela e dirilwe se e leng gore credit rate ya lone e kwa godimo. Any ka half ya one madi a. Gongwe nako e gorogile ya gore international bank, any financial institution international re le puso jaanong re tseye dikgato tse di maleba tsa would want to do business le lefatshe la rona. Ga go na ka bomo tsa go netefatsa gore, ga re jewe ntsoma ke ope yo o ka batlang gore, customer e e tshwanang le boradikonteraka. Botswana e tsamaye e ye go sele go batla madi. They compete for us and therefore le rona re tshwanetse gore Kwa khanseleng ya rona ya Kgatleng, re ne e bile re re beye conditions tsa rona. Re ba bolelele gore, fa le re setse re tlelwa ke mogopolo re le khansele ka gore re condition, le rona ra re, jaana le jaana. That way we can ne re tshwenyegile. Re kile ra lekeletsa, ra tsaya ntlo e bargain ra felela e le gore le yone e re neng re ka e bona nngwe ya LA2, ra nganga le bodiredi bo re neele motho boturu jo bo kana, re e bone bo cheap. ka P450,000. Re le tender board, ka bomo re ne ra tsaya konteraka e e neng e dirile ka P200,000; bodiredi bo re Ka mafoko a makhutshwane a a kalo, ke re, Tona re go ngaletse mo e leng gore. Rakonteraka o tsere nako e e eme nokeng, a loan eo e amogelwe. Ke a leboga. nnyennyane a bo a feditse le ntlo eo, le gompieno e ntse MR SPEAKER: Bagaetsho, fa Mopalamente yo e eme le matlo a re neng re a mo neetse. mongwe a eme, itlwaetseng tlhe Batsadi ba me ke a le Re le khansele ya Kgatleng re kile ra tlelwa ke kakanyo rapela, le tlotle melao ya rona. ya gore, gongwe jaanong re simolole gore rona e re fa ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL re ntsha tender documents, re bo re kwala mo teng, gore GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): Ke a leboga, re le khansele ra re, ntlo e, re prepared go duela madi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Rraetsho, mma a a kana ka bokana. Re dirile estimation le costing ya e re ke simolola ke re, dingwaga tse ke di tsereng mo rona, re bone gore mme ntlo e e ka re batla bokae. Ka Palamenteng, ga ke itse go tlhokela Motsamaisa tsela e e ntseng jalo, re tlaa bo re kaela boradikonterata Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente botho. Gongwe ke kope gore, ba itse gore mo tlhwatlhweng e re e beileng, they boitshwarelo gore, kgantele go kile ga seka ga nna sengwe

150 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading se se siameng. Ke bone sebaka se, mo boemong jwa gore MS TSHIRELETSO: Rraetsho, kana re tsamaya Mmaetsho ka ga a yo, o mmolelele gore ke kopa jalo, ka lenaneo, re tsamaya ka thulaganyo. Nna ebile ke Rraetsho. Go ne go na le phoso e e diragetseng. utlwa bangwe ba re 45 ke dingwaga tse dintsi. 45 ke dingwaga tse dintsi fa o bala 1,2,3,4,5. Fa o rwele MR SPEAKER: Well excused, Honourable Member, mathata a lefatshe le o neng o fitlhela le sena sepe e seka ya boelela gape. jaaka la Botswana, o simolola ka dikole le tse dingwe MS TSHIRELETSO: Thank you, Sir. Ke ema ke nnyaa tlhe, go bokete ka gore o rwele. dumalana le kopo ya ga Rraetsho Tona. Ke dumalana Fa o bua kana o opela go motlhofo but fa o setse o ya nayo ka gore, nna mo dikgannyeng tsa kadimo ya go dira, 45 ke dipalamente tse 10. Fa o tsaya jaaka re madi, di nthusitse go bo ke le fano gompieno. E rile ntse re tsamaya le mafatshe, dipalamente tse dingwe fa ke tsena mo Palamenteng ya Boroba Bongwe, ga tse di setseng di tsene ga 20 ba santse ba na le mathata, tla nngwe kopo ya madi, one a go buiwang ka one a o ka tsaya motlhofo fela. Legale mma ke tlogele ka Eltel. Kopo e e bileng ke rata gore gongwe ke ganetse gore ba bangwe tota motho o bua fela. Kana fa o bua bangwe ba ba ba reng mongwe o ne a bua a re, go na fela o se moimana o sa itse gore mpa go tewa eng, o le dibelebelejane ka fa morago ga yone. Kopo eo go ile sa amuse, o ka bua ka gore ga go na mathata. Jaanong ga tswa boammaaruri jo ope a ileng a bo ganetsa jwa mma ke e tlogele… gore, e ne e le dipuo fela tse ba neng ba di tsaya mo go ba ba neng ba eletsa go ka senya lefatshe la Botswana. MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of clarification, Mr Eltel e ne e tla e le phepa. Bangwe batsadi e bile ba ne Speaker. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke ba itumelela gore, gongwe o sentse golo gongwe, e le ne ke re Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Mahalapye ka go bo a eteletse foo. E se boammaaruri, e le gone go East a re tlhalosetse gore a mme boimana le mpa bo senya batho ba bangwe maina, mo go tlwaelesegileng, Parliamentary? mo e leng gore kwa bofelong go nna le dipuo tse e leng gore motho ga a di arabele. Dikgang tse di buiwang MS TSHIRELETSO: Ke fa sekai sa gore, fa o tshotse mo Palamenteng e go tweng batho ga ba sekisiwe, fa o le moimana, ke raya gore ke wena o itseng ditlhabi tsa gongwe di botlhoko ka gore, motho o tlaa senya a go ngwana yo. Fa o sa itse sepe o le mo go mo Baebeleng senya, kwa bofelong fa boammaaruri bo tswa, ga go na gotwe moopana, ga o itse gore fa gotwe boimana go kgato e e tsewang. Nna e rile madi a sena go adimiwa, tewa eng. Ke gore boimana ke bo tshwantshanya le ke sone se ke dumelang gore, madi a a adimiwang a ka mathata a lefatshe fa o le busa, mme fa o bua fela, nna le mosola mo lefatsheng la Botswana. nnyaa mo go wena ke mainane. O ka bua wa re beke e e tlang motlakase o tlaa bo o le gongwe le gongwe. Mo kgaolong ya me, batlhophi ba me ba santse ba Legale mma ke tswelele. intumelela le letsatsi leno. Ba nkutlwile ke kopa Tona wa nako eo le wa gompieno ka tiragalo e diragetse Tota fela Motlotlegi o ne a boditse potso e ntle thata ya fa Rre Kedikilwe e le ene Tona e e lebaganeng le gore, a metse e mene e, a o solofela gore e tla tsenngwa? metlakase. Re ne re na le metse e le seven e e neng Rraetsho, metse e mene e ke na le tsholofelo le tumelo e sena motlakase, mme ka kadimo ya madi, batho ba ya gore e tla re fa itsholelo e nna teng, jaaka e mengwe Dibete, Mmaphashalala le Kudumatse mo kgaolong ya e e setseng mo lefatsheng la Botswana gongwe go tswe me, ke nnile lesego, metse eo ya dirwa. E mene e e another 100 or 130 villages e ye go tsenngwa. Ke sone setseng ke Dovedale, Shakwe, Mokosana le Setsile. E se ke reng ke fete ka yone jaaka Rraetsho a ne a bua rile mo mading a Eltel, mo go 100 villages e Tona a ka kgang eo. ntseng a re lekodisa gore o tsamaela go fetsa, e bile Ke bo ke re ke rata thata ke eme Rraetsho Tona wa tsa o ne a oketsa ka metse e mengwe e e masome mararo Madi Rre Matambo nokeng, ka tebelopele e e leng gore fa godimo. Ke na le tumelo ya gore itsholelo e, ga e e le lephata ba na nayo. E a re fa gontse go dupadupiwa siama, Dovedale, Shakwe, Mokosana le Setsile ba tlaa go batlwa gore jaaka re le mo mathateng lefatshe la bona motlakase. Kana motlakase one o o o tlaa bo o le Botswana le santse le le kwa morago ka ntateng ya teng o re o adimelang madi. Jaanong, ke ema nokeng gore, batho ba bangwe ba re nang le bone metlakase kopo e, ya ga Tona gore, a go oketswe gore a madi a e re e tsayang mo go bone le bone ba a lela. Akanya a tle. Ke dumalana thata gore re adime madi a, a a sa re tsaya kwa Namibia, South Africa, Mozambique le tleng mo pateng ya ga ope e le madi a e leng gore... Zimbabwe, jaanong ke mathata a e leng gore, fa o a MR G. SALESHANDO: A mme o re bolelela gore lebelela gore lefatshe la rona mo ditswammung tota re mo metseng e e supa, go setse go dirilwe three, four yo na le tsone, jaaka yone kgang ya magala. Tota fela nna o mo thulaganyong ya gore o tsile go felela jaanong? ke a go leboga Tona.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 151 Tuesday 6th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading Gompieno jaana re a oketsa re dira Morupule B go Ba bua gore, “e rile re sena go tlhalosediwa ka go baakanyetsa lephata la ga Motlotlegi Kedikilwe gore ipopa ditlhopha ra ipopa ditlhopha.” O fitlhele e le tiro e diragale, motlakase o nne teng. Se re se batlang gore batho ba bantsi ba tsentse motlakase mo matlong gompieno ke go isa kwa metseng, ke bua ka gone ke ba re e tlaa re ke aga e nngwe nako nngwe, ke bo ke feta, mme tota se re se batlang ke gore, re nne le one tsenya mo go e tona. o le montsi. E re fa re bua ka ga one ba ba eletsang go o tsenya jaaka ke bua mo mafelong a ke reng a na le MR SPEAKER: Come to the Bill now Minister. motlakase gompieno, e bo e le gore ba ka o tsenya o MS TSHIRELETSO: Ke bua ka botlhokwa jwa le teng. Ba ba nang le motlakase ba, re dumalana le motlakase Rraetsho, ke a leboga. E bile ke itebagantse gore fa o le teng motlakase o, o bo o tsenngwa kwa le dikgang tse di builweng ka go tsaya nako e telele bathong ba o tlhokang kana go raya gore ke sone se go dikologwa fela. Jaanong nna ke tlhamaletse gore ke reng ke dumalane le kopo. Fa re ka nna ra re kwa Rraetsho Batswana ba ka kgona, ka gore e rile e le kgaolong ya me ya gore ga go na motlakase, motse bo P10,000, P15,000, P20,000 le P30,000, rona ba wa gore ga o na motlakase, mme o ne o seyo e bile re itseng gore o ne o tsamaya kwa go bokae ba ne ba o tlhaela jaaka o tlhaela gompieno. Go raya gore re tsenya motlakase. Hei! Batswana ba ba dirang bojalwa, na le bothata. Jaanong, ke sone se ke reng, e re fa re ba ba rekisang manoko le ba ba rekisang units ba kopela bo Bodikwa le metse e mengwe ya bo Setsile, tsenya motlakase. Ke gore fa gongwe o iteba o le fa, o Mokoswana re bo re itse gore motlakase o teng. bo o ithaya o re gongwe kwa ga ba na keletso e bile ga Kgang e tona ke gore a motlakase o teng. Motlakase ba ka ke ba kgona, hei! Batho ba bangwe ba kgobiwa o e leng gore o ntse o re turela, mme e bile re batla marapo ke lona ba le ba diang, le ba diela nako le ntse go leboga jaaka nna ke leboga jaaka ba bangwe, le re se tsenyeng goromente o a tura. Rona ba rona gore jaanong motlakase o o tlaa bong o le teng o re o ba ne ba ema ka dinao kwa Tautswe which is a small kopelang madi a a tshwanetseng gore a tswe, ga re na village. Tsamaya o ye teng go le bosigo o ya go fitlhela nao. A itse fa go ntse go buiwa dikgang tsa dikai tse dinaledi fa fatshe, e le gore ba tshubile. Fale le fale gotwe, “gatwe e rile le ntlo e le kwa Lobatse e nngwe bontsi jwa bone ba na le motlakase, ka gore ba a rata. e le kwa Phikwe”, heelang! Ra re gompieno motlakase Jaanong rona ra re nnyaa, batho ba seka ba tsenya go ga o yo, e bile ra re matlo a a kwa Francistown kana fokotswe gotweng- gotweng. Nna ke a re P5,000 yoo dikole ga di ise di dirisiwe. Ga di a ntsha madi ao. A re o dirile tiro ka botlalo ka lenaneo le le tlileng ka lone. tliseng dingongorego re baakanyeng, mme gompieno Nna e rile ke le bolelela, ba kgaolo ba ne ba ema ba ga re na motlakase o o lekanyeng. Ra re a re le akgela ba bo ba nthaya ba re ba a itse. Ba nthaya ba re, goromente wa Botswana yo o sekasekelang batho ba mme kana rona re eme fela re tshwere applications re ba mo tlhophileng sentle, motlakase o adimelwe madi batla go ikopela fa le simologa. Ba itse gore ga go ise re dumele gore a tswe o nne teng. go simologe. Go santse go baakanngwa.

Ke rata thata ke leboge lephata la ga Motlotlegi Jaanong ka yone kgang yone e ya gore motlakase wa Kedikilwe ka go akanya. Ke mo utlwela botlhoko, rona go dirilwe gore e nne P5,000, nna tota fela mo ka gore fa a bua a re batho ba Modimo P5,000 ke motsotsong o o setseng, ke a re dikgang tse re ka di ene kakanyetso Motswana. Motlakase o a tura mme bua, ra kgabisa, ra itumedisa bangwe gore, ba re reetse rotlhe re a itse gore, re tsentse motlakase ka bokafe, gore re ne re palame. Fa gongwe re di bua nako e ise e ke raya ba re tsentseng pele. E bile fa gongwe batho nne yone. Ka gore nako e e tla reng re itse gore o ya go ba ithaya ba re gongwe ba na le madi. Go na le batho di bua o di tswapotse, ka gore a ke re fa gongwe ke go ba nna ke neng ka ba bona ba tsenya motlakase ba ipapatsa, o ipolelela batho gore ke rile. Jaanong, fa o di nna e bile ke neng ka ithaya ke re ga ba ka ke ba buile gompieno fa nako e setse e tla gore jaanong o di kgona. Heela! Batho kwa ba ipatlela ditlamelo tse. bue, rona re setse re di utlwile, go fetile ba batla tse di Bangwe ba o tsentse o santse o tura ba o ka se keng ntsha. Re re gongwe ga le di kgobokanye ya tla ya re wa dumela. E bile rotlhe fela re tsere kgang ke le nako e ntse e tla ya tla ya nna gone fa le buang fa e le Mokhanselara re itumela le bangwe gore heela! Le gore le bona gore di ka solegela molemo. bona fa polateng e e fale kwa Xhosa No. 1, a re batho Jaanong ke re, nngwe ya dilo tse e leng gore ke rata ba teng ba tsentse motlakase. Le e ka fa e, go santse thata gore ke di itumelele ke Rraetsho ene Tona fa a go ipopiwa ditlhophana. Ga ke itse gore a golo moo ntse a ema a dira intervention… go a kganelwa Rraetsho Tona fa e setse e le P5,000. Go ne go ipopiwa ditlhophana fela jaana, ke ne ka MOTION ba botsa gore, “ba dirile jang go tsenya motlakase?” ADJOURNMENT

152 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND Let me point out that, my Ministry has always exercised WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Mr vigilance when giving donations. We have to ensure Speaker, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn. that the animals are taken to appropriate and habitable destinations. Therefore, my Ministry has the responsibility Question put and agreed to. to safe guard the value of tourism in this country and will The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 7.00 p.m. until always diligently do so. I thank you Madam Speaker. th Wednesday 7 April 2010 at 2.30 p.m. STATE OF GIRLS’ HOSTEL AT KAGISO Wednesday 7th April, 2010 SECONDARY SCHOOL

THE ASSEMBLY met at 2.30 p.m. MR O. MOTLHALE (SOUTH EAST SOUTH): asked the Minister of Education and Skills Development:- (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) i) if she is aware that the girls’ hostel at Kagiso P R A Y E R S Secondary School is in an uninhabitable state due to lack of proper and regular maintenance; * * * * ii) if she is aware that there is serious congestion at QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER the said hostel, leading to more than 20 students HIPPO DONATION TO MALAYSIA sharing beds;

MR P. KHWAE (KGALAGADI NORTH): asked iii) if she does not consider the situation a serious health the Minister of Environment, Wildlife and Tourism hazard which requires urgent attention; and whether: iv) whether she would agree that this situation has i) the hippos that Botswana donated to Malaysia contributed to the school’s poor 2009 Botswana were the first ever in Malaysia; General Certificate of Secondary Education (BGCSE) results. ii) it is true that they were donated to a private zoo after the person they were offered to had given a ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND car to one of the former Presidents; SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Madam Speaker, I am informed that the girls’ hostels iii) there is any loss to the Botswana tourism industry at Kagiso Secondary School were supposed to be since Malaysians will no longer need to visit refurbished together with the boys’ hostels that were Botswana to see hippos; and gutted by fire in 2006. Unfortunately, due to insufficient funds only the boys’ hostels were attended to in 2009 as iv) in view of the above, his Ministry will be more they were in a worse condition than the girls’ hostels. vigilant when giving donations, such that the The girls’ hostels will be considered with other equally country does not lose out. deserving schools during the current financial year. MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENT, WILDLIFE AND Madam Speaker, I have been informed that indeed 20 TOURISM (MR MOKAILA): Madam Speaker, the girls are sharing beds. I have instructed my offices to two hippos that Botswana donated to Malaysia were ensure that this issue is resolved as a matter of urgency not the first in Malaysia as there were four other hippos by the time students report for the second term at the in a private zoo. end of this month. The two hippos were donated to the Prime Minister of With regard to the poor academic performance of the Malaysia and taken to Paindah Wetland which belongs school in the just released 2009 Botswana General to the Government of Malaysia and not to a private Certificate of Secondary Education (BGCSE) results, I zoo. I am not aware of any car that was given to one of wish to state that we cannot attribute this solely to the our former Presidents. accommodation problem at the school as the majority Madam Speaker, there is no loss to Botswana tourism of the students are not boarders. Thank you Madam since Malaysians do not come to Botswana just to Speaker. see hippos. Botswana tourism is driven by the wide MR MOTLHALE: Ke a leboga Madam Speaker. diversity of wildlife and wilderness environment that Honourable Minister, point 5 says “has contributed,” prevail in the country. Tourists will still be attracted by it does not say solely, “has contributed.” Do you agree this unique diversity and wilderness. that it has contributed?

Hansard No 163 Part 4 153 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MR RAKHUDU: It is possible Madam Speaker. Both Botswana and Libya are agreed on the creation of the United States of Africa and we have not LIBYA’S DONATION TO BOTSWANA been frustrating that effort but rather have different MR P. KHWAE (KGALAGADI NORTH): asked approaches. the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International I thank you Madam Speaker. Cooperation whether: SHORTAGE OF TEACHERS’ i) he is aware that the President of Libya is known, ACCOMMODATION AT KAGISO SECONDARY among other things, to pay African Union SCHOOL subscription fees for other African nations in order to win their support for the United States MR O. MOTLHALE (SOUTH EAST SOUTH): asked (US) of Africa with himself as its leader; and the Minister of Education and Skills Development:-

ii) the recent donations of one thousand date palm i) if she is aware that there is an acute shortage of trees and eight tractors by Libya to Botswana, teachers’ accommodation at Kagiso Secondary are not meant to soften Botswana’s stance, as it School leading to 98% of teachers, some with seems she has been frustrating the President of large families, sharing houses; Libya’s US of Africa efforts. ii) if this situation would not affect staff morale and MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND performance; and INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION (MR SKELEMANI): Madam Speaker, Libya happens to iii) what she plans to do to address this situation and be amongst some of the countries within the African when. Union (AU) which have been calling for the immediate ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND integration of Africa, to create a United States of SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Africa. I have no knowledge as to whether Libya has Madam Speaker, I am aware of the acute shortage of been paying the subscription fees for other AU member accommodation at Kagiso Secondary School. I am states so as to win their support for the creation of a informed that there are 111 teachers against only 62 United States of Africa, with Colonel Gadaffi as its housing units. leader. I therefore consider the rumour, to be merely an unsubstantiated allegation. Madam Speaker, as I indicated to this Honourable House recently, there is an acute shortage of accommodation Botswana has had a long standing relationship with for teachers in virtually all our schools. I am concerned Libya. Through this relationship, Botswana has about this situation and I have begun in earnest to benefited from Libyan assistance. This assistance engage with all the relevant stakeholders with the view entails: a donation of Television Sets for the University to addressing this matter. I am very much concerned of Botswana; a breeding stock of Camels. Libya has that the current state of affairs with regard to teacher also undertaken to build a primary school and Youth accommodation can impact upon their morale and Centre; land for the building of the primary school has performance. That is why I have seen it fit to give this already been allocated in Mmopane in the Kweneng matter all the attention that it deserves. However, I am District. In this regard, the recent donations of one unable to give specific timeframes with regard to when thousand date palm trees and availing the use of eight this matter will be resolved as the consultation process tractors, is considered to be nothing else other than is ongoing. I thank you Madam Speaker. assistance from a long term cooperating partner. MR MABILETSA: Ke re ke botse Tona gore, ka Libya certainly understands Botswana’s position on bullet Number 1 ya potso ya re, “a Tona o itse gore the creation of a United States of Africa. Our view barutabana ba ka nna 98 per cent are sharing?” Mme which we maintain as a matter of principle is that, e kete ga ke a utlwa a umaka gore, a seemo se ke sone the creation of a United States of Africa cannot be kana ga se sone. Ke re Tona a re tlhalosetse gore tota perceived to be an event, but rather, it is a process seemo ke eng? which should involve all our people; and should be achieved through a gradual and incremental approach, MR RAKHUDU: Madam Speaker, bullet e a buang ka using the Regional Economic Communities (REC’s) yone a bua a percentage as a measure, nna ke dirisitse like Southern African Development Community proper numeric as a measure, go a tshwana.Fa o ne o (SADC) as the building blocks. ka riana dipalonyana o tla a bona.

154 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

NOMINATION OF BOTSWANA GOVERNMENT relocating the pond to prevent damage to the fence by REPRESENTATIVE ON DEBSWANA BOARD elephants due to shortage of funds. Other mitigation OF DIRECTORS measures will be considered in the future. I thank you Madam Speaker MR G. SALESHANDO (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): asked the Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water HABITAT FOR HUMANITY BOTSWANA’S Resources who nominates the Botswana Government PROVISION OF HOUSE LOANS representative on the Debswana Board of Directors and who the nominee is. MR D. SALESHANDO (GABORONE CENTRAL): asked the Minister of Lands and Housing to brief this MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND House on:- WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Madam Speaker, the Minister of Minerals, Energy and i) the role of Habitat for Humanity Botswana Water Resources nominates ad referendum Cabinet (HFHB) in the provision of low cost housing in approval, the Botswana Government representatives Botswana; to the Debswana Board of Directors, currently the ii) to state the criteria used by HFHB when giving nominees are: loans to individual beneficiaries;

Mr E. M. Molale - Permanent Secretary to the President iii) whether he is aware that there are numerous Mr S. Sekwakwa - Permanent Secretary, Ministry of instances where individuals with no capacity for Finance and Development Planning repayment of loans on account of age and economic status have been given loans by HFHB; and Dr A. Molokomme - Attorney General iv) what his Ministry intends doing to protect the Ms L. Mohohlo - Governor, Bank of Botswana interests of Batswana vis-a-vis HFHB.

Mr G. G. Gabaake - Permanent Secretary, Ministry of MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR Minerals, Energy and Water Resources MOLEFHI): Madam Speaker, the role of Habitat for Humanity Botswana (HFHB) with regard to provision J. A. R Thamage - Coordinator, Diamond Hub of low cost housing in Botswana is to partner with I thank you Madam Speaker. the poor and low income families to provide simple, decent and affordable housing. CONSTRUCTION OF GUMARE WASTE WATER DRAINAGE SYSTEM Habitat for Humanity Botswana assists families and not individuals and the selection for assistance is based MR T. HABANO (NGAMI): asked the Minister of on the following three factors:- Local Government whether an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) was done before identifying the site • The need for adequate shelter by the beneficiaries. and commencing construction of Gumare Waste Water The need for a decent house should be evident and drainage system:- beneficiaries must be willing to do what they can to help themselves improve their housing situation; i) if not, why; • Ability to pay or third party to pay for such ii) if so, will the Minister then accelerate the applicants; construction of concrete slabs with sharp steel rods to prevent damage by elephants to the ponds’ • Willingness to partner perimeter fence or find an alternative site away Madam Speaker, Habitat for Humanity Botswana from the communal area. (HFHB) has set family criteria that guides in the ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL selection process. The resource assessment is not based GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): Madam Speaker, on an individual basis, hence the financier may not Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) was done for necessarily be the homeowner. For example, aging and the siting and construction of Gumare Waste Water poor parents who are home owners might be assisted Drainage System. by their children to service the loan. In cases where the breadwinner has passed away and no one in the Madam Speaker, as of now I do not have any plans family has the capacity to pay, Habitat For Humanity to construct concrete slabs with sharp steel rods or has written off loans.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 155 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Madam Speaker, I am not aware of any threat to the YOUTH BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES AT interest of Batswana by HFHB that need Government THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND protection because my Ministry has never received any INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION complaints to that effect. However, should there be any evidence that the interests of Batswana are being MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): threatened by the activities of HFHB, my Ministry will asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International respond appropriately. I thank you Madam. Cooperation to state:-

YOUTH BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES AT i) specific business opportunities deliberately MINISTRY OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND presented to the youth in his Ministry from the SECURITY Development and Recurrent budget allocations as coordinated by the Ministry’s Principal Youth MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): ask the Officer; Minister for Defence, Justice and Security to state:- ii) the national value of such businesses during the i) specific business opportunities deliberately 2009/2010 Financial Year; presented to the youth in his Ministry from the Development and Recurrent budget allocations iii) projected national value of such during the as coordinated by the Ministry’s Principal Youth 2010/2011 Financial Year; Officer; iv) the value at (ii) and (iii) above that specifically ii) the national value of such businesses during the benefited or is projected to benefit youth in the 2009/2010 Financial Year; Shoshong Constituency; and

iii) projected national value of such during the v) efforts made to sensitise youth on these 2010/2011 Financial Year; opportunities.

iv) the value at (ii) and (iii) above that specifically MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND benefited or is projected to benefit youth in the INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION (MR Shoshong Constituency; and SKELEMANI): Madam Speaker, Botswana, like all countries, values the contribution that young people v) efforts made to sensitise youth on these have made and continue to make in our national opportunities. development.

MINISTER FOR DEFENCE, JUSTICE AND As you would be aware, Madam Speaker, the mandate SECURITY (MR D. R. SERETSE): Madam Speaker, of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International there were and are no specific business opportunities Cooperation is to promote Botswana’s National interest deliberately created for the youth in my Ministry for the abroad. It is against this background that the Principal years 2009/2010 and 2010/2011 in both the Recurrent Youth Officer’s duties are mainstreamed into those of and Development budget allocations. the Ministry.

Our projects are not youth specific but they in no To facilitate the functions of the Principal Youth way exclude the youth and therefore the youth is Officer, my Ministry has found it necessary to appoint encouraged to use whatever programmes Government Youth Focal Persons at our Diplomatic Missions has availed for the development and promotion of abroad. The purpose of the Youth Focal Persons is youth entrepreneurship. mainly to solicit opportunities for young Batswana in their areas of coverage. So far, they have managed to It may be note worthy to mention that we are involving secure assistance from our development partners in the in the youth in crime prevention initiatives such areas of culture, entrepreneurship, scholarships, sports, as Police Volunteers and Special Constables. This film production, music as well as capacity building on involves the youth throughout Botswana, Shoshong HIV and AIDS and other health issues. inclusive. We have, so far, managed to facilitate sponsorship for We have a Youth Officer, however in our Ministry who some young Batswana to the UN General Assembly to is working on identifying business opportunities which familiarise themselves with some of its decisions on the youth can be encouraged to undertake, in future. youth issues; the 9th Melaka International Dialogue in I thank you, Madam Speaker. Malaysia and the African Youth Camp in Egypt. We have also managed to secure some youth volunteers

156 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER from China in areas of IT, martial arts and sports iii) projected national value of such during the coaches, under the China-Africa Cooperation Forum. 2010/2011 Financial Year; These are just a few among the many opportunities we iv) the value at (ii) and (iii) above that specifically have secured for our youth and we are still following- benefited or is projected to benefit youth in the up on others. Shoshong Constituency; and We continue to forward these youth development v) efforts made to sensitise youth on these opportunities to the Ministry of Youth, Sports and opportunities. Culture; Botswana National Youth Council (BNYC) and its affiliated bodies, for publication and utilisation. MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (MR SWARTZ): The Principal Youth Officer has also travelled to various institutions abroad to address our students and sensitise Madam Speaker, specific business opportunities for them on some new policy changes affecting our youth. youth in my Ministry lie in various maintenance activities of different Government facilities, which we In addition, the Principal Youth Officer has undertaken undertake. In fact, as a Ministry which services others, benchmarking exercises in Sweden, Mauritius and to date we have registered 72 Youth Contractors and South Africa. The objective of the exercise was to learn 750 youth with Vocational Skills around the country and share ideas on how other countries assist young in our database. The information has been shared people in running a business, as well as their efforts with other ministries and Local Authorities, and in reducing youth unemployment and addressing the they have also been encouraged to consider them in emerging challenges of drug and alcohol abuse. I have maintenance activities. no doubt that the recommendations from the exercise will go a long way in strengthening the work of the During the 2009/2010 Financial Year, youth companies Ministry of Youth, Sport and Culture. were engaged in projects at the total national value of P24.278,691.50. Madam Speaker, it should be noted that these youth development opportunities are sought with the Madam Speaker, I am not in a position to project the sole intention of benefiting all young Batswana, National Value of business opportunities that would be irrespective of their location. I am aware that the availed to the youth during the 2010/2011 financial year Department of Youth and the Botswana National because there are no projects specifically set aside for Youth Council (BNYC) have regional youth officers, that purpose. Nevertheless, my Ministry will continue who ensure that young people across the country get to promote engagement of Youth Companies and Youth to know about all the youth empowerment initiatives, with vocational skills in maintenance services during including from my Ministry. the financial year. I am convinced that as they acquire more experience, they will become more competitive Madam Speaker, the nature of our work and the help we and consequently be engaged in more projects of an secure for the youth is not easy to quantify in monetary even higher financial value than before. terms but I am sure that Honourable Members will agree that such work is valuable especially when Madam Speaker, it is important for Honourable properly utilised. I thank you. colleagues to note that the initiative is not Constituency based. However, as a general principle, my Ministry YOUTH BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES AT engages registered youths to carry out minor maintenance MINISTRY OF INFRASTRUCTURE, SCIENCE wherever they are in the country, and this includes those AND TECHNOLOGY within the Shoshong Constituency, which would be MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked administered through the Mahalapye DBES Depot. the Minister of Infrastructure, Science and Technology On sensitisation of youth on these opportunities, my to state:- Ministry has been doing it through public notices, liaison i) specific business opportunities deliberately presented with Principal District Youth Officers of various Councils to the youth in his Ministry from the Development for information dissemination, Kgotla meetings, multi- and Recurrent budget allocations coordinated by the sectoral workshops, and important fora such as Month Ministry’s Principal Youth Officer; of Youth Against AIDS Commemorations.

ii) the national value of such businesses during the I also implore Honourable colleagues to convey the same 2009/2010 Financial Year; message to youth in their respective constituencies. I thank you Madam Speaker.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 157 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) TABLING OF PAPERS MS TSHIRELETSO: Rraetsho, Mopalamente yo o tlotlegang, re adimile madi mo nakong tse di fetileng. The following papers were tabled: E tlaa re fa Tona a araba o tlaa go tlhalosetsa. Se ke se STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 22 OF 2010: itseng ke gore go na le a mangwe a nna ke ne ke reetsa MATIMELA (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS, ke le kwa ntle gore a go tulwe re seka ra a busa. Tona 2010 is in a position ya go ka dira jalo.

(Minister of Local Government) Jaanong tota ke ne ke re ke digele ka gore, re seka ra nna re ntse re iphatlha ka mahuka fa re batla go bua dikgang STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 23 OF 2010: tsa rona. Re di bue re seka ra pateletsa batho. E rile MATIMELA (VARIATION OF PERIOD OF maabane fa go buiwa fa gotwe go ka bo go ne ga seka ga SALE) ORDER, 2010 rekwa uniform ya sepodise, ba bangwe ba re gatwe e a baba, ka botsa mosetsanyana yo o fa kgorwaneng gore, (Minister of Local Government) a uniform e e ntsha? A re, “ee”, ka re, e a baba? A re, MORUPULE B POWER STATION “nnyaa.” Ka re go na le batho ba ba dirang stories fela PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN tsa gore go kgatlhe gore motho o ne a ntse a bua e bile ka AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 e tlaa nna tsone dikgang tsa radio. Ka gore ke dikgang OF 2010) tse di kgatlhang batho di kgona go kwalwa, di bo di buiwa mo seromamoweng. Dikgang tse di buiwang ka Second Reading kadimo ya madi di nna di nnyennyane. Mola wa teng le mo Radio Botswana, fa o ka bua wa re o a dumela, (Resumed Debate) nnyaa le go utlwala ga o ka ke wa utlwala. MS TSHIRELETSO (MAHALAPYE EAST): Ke a Nna ke bona gore batho fa ba ntse ba re uniform e a leboga Mmaetsho, ke a go dumedisa mo tshokologong baba, mantlo a kwa Palapye, mantlo a kwa Serowe, ba eno. Maabane fa ke tloga ke tsamaela go fetsa, ke ne raya gore gongwe ba tle ba utlwale golo gongwe. Mme ke bua ka gore go botlhokwa gore re letlelele madi a moo kana ga go busetse Batswana sepe. gore a adimiwe. Ke gore fa re na le motlakase e tlaa re fa re o batla kwa dikgaolong tseo o isiwe teng. Ke MR TSOGWANE: On a point of elucidation Madam lebile gore kana fa re reka motlakase kwa Namibia, Speaker. Ke a leboga. Ke tsaya gore o bua kgang ya South Africa, Mozambique le Zimbabwe go raya gore botlhokwa thata Honourable. A mme o bua gore tsone re ntsha madi a mantsi go reka motlakase oo. Jaanong tseo tse di buiwang tsa uniform, go agela Matona fa e le gore re na le one madi a re neng re ntse re a matlo le tse dingwe tse di senyang madi, ke tsone tse duela, a millions, a ya go nna teng. Go bo go raya gore di begiwang go na le dikgang tse di buiwang jaaka rona ba re lelang ka motlakase go raya gore jaanong re dikgang tsa ga Rre Moatlhodi le tsa me maabane di sa ka bona Rraetsho Tona yo o lebaganeng le motlakase, begiwa, go begilwe tsone tsa uniform? o ka salelwa ke sengwe a kgona gore a re tsenyetse metlakase kwa dikgaolong tsa rona. Ke mafoko a e MS TSHIRELETSO: Mmaetsho re itumelela gore le leng gore ke ne ke a bua maabane e le a bofelo, ke a re letlelela ka gore go a buiwa fa go ntse go a alwa. dumalana le mogopolo o. Ke re gone mme kana le fa re Ka ke tsamaela go alolola, ka re ke boammaaruri se o se ntse re re ga re ka ke ra adima madi, go dira jalo go re buang Honourable Tsogwane. Ba ba buileng ka kgang fitlhisitse fa re leng teng gompieno. Ditiro bontsi tse re ya gore madi a go botlhokwa gore a ka adimiwa, ga o di dirileng re ne re adima madi, ra kgona go a busa. A ka ke wa utlwa ope a bega ka gone mo seromamoweng mangwe ra kgona gore gotwe, “nnyaa le dirile sentle le kana mo go eng. Le fa e le mo go yone pampiri. O seka la a duela”. Ke selo se e leng gore ga se botlhodi ya go utlwa tse di buiwang, dikgang tse e leng gore gore e bo e le gore re adima madi. Selo se se tona gape gompieno uniform e… ke gore fa re adima madi, e seka ya re fa e le gore go MR MOREMI: On a point of order Madam Speaker. dirilwe e nngwe tiro, e e tshwanang ditiro dingwe mo Kana Mopalamente Motlotlegi Tshireletso o dira mo Botswana, e bo e le gore ra re madi ao a ka bo a tserwe gotweng imputing improper motives. a ya kwa motlakaseng. Ke buelela mo go ya ... MADAM SPEAKER: Fa a reng Honourable MR ARONE: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Member? Out of interest, the Honourable Minister gave an example of a loan which was obtained and the country MR MOREMI: Fa a re ba bangwe ba buela fela gore was told not to pay it back. ba tsenngwe mo seromamoweng sa Botswana.

158 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MADAM SPEAKER: Yes, that sounds like you are na le kopo ya gore e re le fa ba tlhalosa gore motlakase not being very kind to your Honourable colleagues. o a tura, go tlhalosiwe go seka ga dirwa jaaka ekare ke Honourable Member a ko o tsene mo tseleng fela o molato wa ga goromente wa Botswana. Gore jaanong tswe mo go tse dintsintsi. okare goromente wa Botswana ke ene a lekang ka natla yotlhe gore motlakase o tle o turele Batswana. Go lela MS TSHIRELETSO: Ke tsena mo tseleng Mmaetsho. ke go lela Madam Speaker, mme o seka wa tloga wa dira Fa go buiwa ka mantlo a Matona ga go diriwe improper gore batho ba seka ba itse gore se se go letsang ke eng. motive. Dilo tse re tlaa di bona Mmaetsho ka gore go letse Bua fela ka boammaaruri. It is okay to be analytic and to go buiwa fa, kgang e e dumalanweng ke Palamente yone even show cause gore ditirelo tsa rona di a tura. Fela se e, e rebola gore madi a a age matlo ao. Go dumalanwe, se tona, a re boleleleng Batswana sentle gore ba itse gore batho ba setse ba aga. Fa recession e tsena e bo e le gore selo se se dirang gore go ture, ga se gore go na le mongwe jaanong e re motho a setse a le mo ntlong o bo o mo yo o dirang jalo ka kgang ya sebokolodi. Nnyaa, rotlhe re raya o re fologa ka gore recession e tsene, madi a gagwe a itse, ba e leng gore re etle re leke go itshupegetsa gore a ntse a le teng. Jaanong ke re dilo tse Mmaetsho re ke eng dilo mo Botswana di tura, ga se motlakase fela. tlaa di bua, nna ga ke re ope, Rre Kedikilwe, Tona yo o Ke dilo tse dintsi. Rotlhe re a itse, le ba o fitlhelang ba lebaganeng le tsa motlakase o letse a bua maabane. Ga ema ba kgobotletsa, ba a bo ba setse ba raya fela Madam gona ope yo o kileng a umaka sepe gore o kile a bua a Speaker. Ba a itse gore mabaka ke a fe. bolelela Batswana gore o ikaelela goreng a tlatsa Bill e. Ga go ise go tswe, jaanong gatwe ke seka ka bua gore fa Ke dumalana le ba ba akgolang Tona wa tsa Kgotetso o bua mo go tlhamaletseng go lebagane le Bill, ope ga a le Metsi. Fa ba re o dirile sentle thata gore a fokotse go ka ke a go bega? tura ga tiriso ya motlakase bogolo jang kgokelo ya one. Fa gongwe fa ke farologanang le ba bangwe teng ke Jaanong rona ga re na bothata. Ba dikgaolo bone re gore, a e seka ya re re diga ditlhwatlhwa tse tsa ditirelo, tlaa ba begela, le fa radio e sa bue kana mang a sa ra dira ka mokgwa o o senang kelelelo le matsetseleko. bue, gone re tlaa bua. Le bone ba ba buang ka gore Re seka ra tloga ra fitlhela ka moso e le gore jaanong re matlo a ka bo a sa agiwa, re tlaa tlhalosetsa dikgaolo digile bokgoni jwa itsholelo gore e kgone go dira sepe gore ke eng a agilwe ka gore thulaganyo e e dumetswe fela se se siametseng Batswana. ke Palamente, madi a a fetisitswe ke Palamente re le mmogo. Ke a leboga Mmaetsho. Mo malatsing a a fetileng a, ba re e tleng re lebelele televisions tsa baagisanyi, re bale dipampiri tsa bone re ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND reetse le dikgang tsa bone. Re a itse gore bone, lekala SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Ke la bone le le fetlhang motlakase le na le mathata a a itumelela gore o bo o ntetlile ka nna wa bofelo go gakgamatsang. Ka gore ba ba fetlhelwang motlakase bua Madam Speaker, pele ga Tona yo o lebaganeng oo, go na le ba ba reng nnyaa, lona fetlhang fela le fa go le tsa kgotetso le metsi. Madam Speaker, ke emela go le turela, le fa le ka tlhoka dipoelo ga gore sepe. Nnang dumalana le kopo ya ga Tona gore a ye go tsaya loan le fetlhe fela ka ditlhwatlhwa tse di kwa tlase. Gongwe kana sekoloto se, madi a a kadimo a. A a tseela fela ba bangwe ba a bo ba bua jalo ba na le economy e tona, gore a tle a re thuse gore re dire ditlhabololo tsa go e e leng gore e na le boitsetsepelo. E e leng gore e ka atolosa go fetlhiwa ga motlakase kwa Morupule. E bile re fa go setse go le maswe, ga nna le kwa e fatafatang ke re a gate fela ka botswerere joo ka gore re santse re teng go baakanya dilo.Rona itsholelo ya rona ga se ya tlaa tla re ya go adima madi a mangwe gape, motlakase sebopego seo. o santse o re tlhaelela. Nna e bile ke dumalana gore re nne le motlakase o montsi gore re bo re nne le o re tlaa Itsholelo ya rona ke e e leng gore e tshela fela, mme o rekisang. Ba mafatshe a mangwe ba re bapileng le e bile e beile mo matsetselekong a ga goromente wa one, fa ba dira dilori ga ba itekanye dilori tseo. Ba dira gompieno ka fa a e tswerefaletseng ka teng. Fela fa tse dintsi gore ba re di rekisetse le dijo fela jalo. Go na re ka kgobotletsa ra ba ra dira gore goromente a ba a le dilo tse dintsi tse ba di itirelang ba sa itekanye. Ba tloge jaanong a latlhe botswerere le matsetseleko ao, dira gore go nne gontsi gore ba tle ba gwebe ka tsone. re tlile go nna le mathata a a gakgamatsang. Le bone ba ba solofetseng gore letsatsi lengwe e re re sule ba Jaanong le nna ke bona go siame fela gore, rra tsamaya o tle ba buse, ba ya go fitlhela gongwe go sena le fa e ye go tsaya madi ao o tle o re thuse, re fetlhe motlakase. le sepe. Jaanong mma ke latlhele lefoko la gore, le fa E re fa re fetlha motlakase jaana re bo re fetlhela gore kgokelo ya motlakase e fokoditswe e isitswe kwa go re ye go thusa batho ba rona gore ba itlhabolole ka one. P5000, go boammaaruri e ntse e kwa godimo. Re a itse Ke dumalana le ba ba nang le lenyora la gore tota one gore batho ba re ba emetseng ke batho ba e leng gore motlakase o a tura.Ga gona yo o ka ba ganetsang. Ke ba bangwe fela le fa o ka mo raya wa re P5 wa clinic

Hansard No 163 Part 4 159 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) o palelwa ke go mo ntsha. Ke na le pelaelo ya gore Ke letse ke tlhalositse maabane gore le kwa ntle ga motho yo o palelwang ke go batla P5000 ka ba tlaa dikete tse tlhano tse di tlaa bong gotwe batho ba di nna teng go gokela motlakase, gongwe o batla gore go duele. Thulaganyo ele ya rural electrification e motho akanngwe leano le sele. E seng gore jaanong gotwe le a ka nnang a duela mo dikgweding tse di beilweng, e ba ba ka kgonang jaanong a go digwe fela go ye go ntse e teng fela. Ga go thuse sepe ka gore le fa re bua tsena kwa go P1000. Ke na le tumelo ya gore fa re ka jaana, nnyaa, le kwa ntle ga gore ga go kwalwe gope dira jalo re tloga re itshenyetsa. Tota fela boammaaruri gongwe fa e se mo Hansard fela, le bone ba re reng ke gore, motho yo o palelwang ke go gokela motlakase re a ba bolelela tota ga ba batle go utlwa. Ba batla go ka P5000, ke na le tumelo ya gore le fa o ka re P1000, ikutlwa e le gore ba tlhobosa sengwe le sengwe. Ke motho yo o ya go nna le mathata a go o gokela. Ba e a leboga. leng gore tota ga ba dire, ke tlaa dirisa lefoko le ka ga ke itse gore ke ka dirisa lefe. Ke le dirisa tota ka MR RAKHUDU: Ke lebogela tlhaloso eo ya ga boikokobetso, ba e leng gore ga ba dire botete, e le gore Tona, ka tota e bile ke ene motshwarateu. Ke ene a di tota ba bua boammaaruri ga ba kgone go duela P5000 tshwereng ka kgole. Ke re, mme e bile ke dumalana go gokela motlakase, tota le fa o ka re e nne P2000, ke le ene, kana batsaya dikgang re bua jaana re bapile na le tumelo ya gore bao ga ba ka ke ba kgona. nabo ba re reeditse. Tota fela sengwe sa dilo tse di thatafatsang Madam Speaker, ke gore kooteng dikgang Jaanong a re seka ra kgoba Tona wa Kgotetso le Metsi fa di tlhalosa sentle ga di nne monate. Jaanong, batho ba marapo fa a dirile ka botswerere jo bo kalo. Maabane fa ba boletswang dipotso ke bakaulengwe ba rona, ka gore e le gore ke tshwere sentle, o kile a re a bua a re, “kana tota bakaulengwe ba rona ga ba ipoletse fela, ba boletsa go mo go lona Palamente, go mo go lona Batswana, le setshaba, go siame. Mme a batsaya dikgang le bone, gore fa le batla gore gongwe go iwe le fa e le kwa go ba join bakaulengwe ba ba tletseng mo Palamenteng P1000 le ka bua jalo”. Ke ne ka utlwa ke tshwenyega this side and that side of the isle. E re fa Mokaulengwe a ka re golo fa re tloga re sa itirele sentle. Ke dumela gore boditse, ba tseye le tlhaloso eo ba e ise kwa setshabeng P5000 re ile kwa tlase tota a re nameng re eme foo. E gore setshaba se seka sa utlwa gongwe tlhoboso fela. Se tlaa re fa mabaka a ntse a tsamaya, mo tsamaong ya utlwe le fa go etlang go tlhalosiwa sentle. nako, fa re ka bona go na le mabaka a a re kgontshang gore letsatsi lengwe re bo re re, nnyaa gongwe re tlaa Madam Speaker, ke dumalana gore kgang ya motlakase gokela ka P500. Re tlaa dira jalo. gore o tsene mo bathong e tshwana fela le dikgang tsa bo kalafi, thuto, ditsela le ditlhaelatsanyo. Tota keletso MR ARONE: On a point of clarification Madam ke gore dilo tse di tsene mo bathong. Speaker. Thank you, Madam Speaker, thank you, Honourable Minister. You have just alluded that you Ke batla go akgola Tona ya tsa Kgotetso le Metsi gore, are aware that some people are not going to afford the kana fa gongwe ka ga re nke re bua ka selo se gantsi. P5000 to connect. What plans do you think we can put Go na le leano le le arabang lenyora le le bodiwang in place more especially on your side to assist, because ke bakaulengwe la gore, mme tota motlakase e tlaa re they also need electricity at the end of the day? fa o tlaa nna mo bathong ka bonolo, ba o tlaa sekeng o ba kokonela ke o o ntseng jang. Kana ba gotweng MR RAKHUDU: Ee mma, ke na le kakanyo eo. Mma ba palelwa ke ma P5 000, le fa o ka nna motho fela ke leboge mokaulengwe through you Madam Speaker, yo o ratang batho jaaka bo Honourable Masitara ba gore that kind of intervention is very wise. Gone re ete ba dire bobelontle ba thuse batho, fa motho a ka tshwanetse gore re akanye, including le ene gore e tlaa ema fela a ya go golegelela motho motlakase fela kwa re le fa ke sena go nna ke latlhela kakanyo ya me, le motseng wa Dimajwe, o tlile go palelwa ke go o duela. fa ene gongwe a setse a buile. E tlaa re re tswela kwa Ke gore o tlaa o tshuba fela fa gotwe duela, a bo a ntle ke tlaa mo raya ke re monna wena o ne o akantse palelwa a sa gane. A sena bokgoni jwa go o duela. Ke eng re tle re ye go gakolola monna yole wa madi le ne ke re gongwe re tlaa akantshana gore gone fa, re motlakase? Ke sone se tota re tshwanetseng gore re se dira jang mo go ba e leng gore other than gotwe re dire. Ke solofela gore... tlaa o connect mahala re bo re le o duelele re le puso. Other than that, go ka dirwa eng? Ke itse gore go na MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND le ditsela tse dingwe tsa go fetlha motlakase tse e leng WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Point gore e ka nna tsa phefo, marang a letsatsi kana tsa gas, of clarification Madam Speaker. Mma re nne re leke methane gas. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente go itaya lentswe ka le lengwe. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le ka metsi.

160 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MR RAKHUDU: Metsi ga ke bue thata ka one, ka gore a ba tsenya mala ba fola. MaAmerica kwa bo Pittsburg, ke selo se re senang naso thata mo Botswana Honourable mafatshefatshe le maSouth Africa ba santse ba epa Masisi. Jaanong, re na le dikai. Fa o ya fa Lobatse, o ya malatlha. A e seka ya nna rona fela. go fitlhelahotel ya Cumberland e le gore e dirisa maano le maranyane a sele a go ntsha motlakase. Mme go HONOURABLE MEMBER: Le Mmamosadinyana. bereka fela sentle. Gone mo, ke gone mo e leng gore re MR RAKHUDU: Ee, ke buile ka ene Mmamosadinyana ka bo re re le Batswana gongwe re leke thata ka dithuto Rra, gore fa a ne a tsenya mala, ene o ka bo a setse a le dipatlisiso gore re batle boranyane, boitsaanape jo bo sule motho wa Modimo. O santse a dirisa malatlha. A e ka re gorosang koo. Ke itse fela sentle gore fa o tsamaya seka ya bo ya re re le Batswana, ra itirela phoso ya go mo masimong le mo dipolaseng, le fa o etetse kwa reetsa batho ba ba reng ke bone ba ba itebagantseng le bogwagwadi kwa Bulawayo kwa Zimbabwe, o ya go pheelo ya loago le loapi. Ba re nnyaa, re tlaa sotlega e fitlhela batho ba fetlha motlakase mo masingwaneng le le rona re ntseng fa godimo ga lehumo re sa le dirise. mo metseng ya bone ka letsatsi. E bo e re letsatsi le re reng re dirisa lehumo le, re bo HONOURABLE MEMBER: Moo go a diragala re fitlhela e le gore, jaanong gongwe ga le sa tlhole mono. le dirisega. Technology e fetogile ga go dirisiwe. E bo e le gore re ne ra nna bo lesilo. Ke re nnyaa, a MR RAKHUDU: Jang ne rra? Nnyaa, go thata jang re direng ka bonatla le bofefo jo re ka bo kgonang. letsatsi leno? Batho gongwe ba thusiwe gore ba ye Magala a a kanakana a tonnes tse di bo trillion, tse go fetlha motlakase ka letsatsi. Motlakase o, mathata di kalokalo. A re a epeng, re a diriseng go fetlha a one ke go reka didirisiwa tsa one. Fa o setse o di motlakase. Re tshubeleng Batswana re bo re rekise rekile ga gona sekoloto, ke gore ga gona Bill. O fetlha le motlakase o. Se setona fela Tona wa tsa Kgotetso, malatsi otlhe fela, letsatsi fa le tlhaba le go fetlhela ke gore ene a tlhomamise gore re batle mo gotweng, motlakase. Le fa go ne go le maru, motlakase o, o ntse cleaner technologies tsa gore malatlha a re ka a dirisa. o a fetlhega. Nako fela e ke itseng gore motlakase o ga A re a fetola gas kana leokwane jaaka kwa bo Sasol o fetlhege, ke fa go le bosigo, ka gore foo letsatsi le a kwa South Africa go dirwa. A re a tshuba e ntse e le bo le diketse. Mme fa go le motshegare o a fetlhega. kidikwe eo fela, a re direng jalo re itshetse ka dilo tse. Jaanong nna ke eta ke akanya gore gongwe goromente Re seka ra utlwa ba e leng gore ba itlhabolotse ka dilo o tlaa turelwa ke gore a bo a tsenya batho in the tse jaanong fa e le nako ya rona gatwe nnyaa, lona ga le conventional grid system. Gongwe go ka nna botoka a lekana gore le tle le itlhabolole ka dilo tseo. for the long term. Go na le gore re tsenyetse batho motlakase ba ba tlileng go palelwa ke go duela Bill. Ke Ke re, nnyaa Tona o eme fela ka dinao o itse gore re go gore tiriso ya one ya malatsi otlhe, gongwe goromente eme nokeng le bo Honourable Saleshando ke raya the e re a tshwanetse go latlhela madi ka koo, a latlhele. senior le junior, bo Mabiletsa le Honourable Gaborone. Letsatsi lengwe go ye go batliwa sekoloto se sengwe Re go eme nokeng fela rotlhe ra re, tsamaya. Ke a ba fa re santse re na le bokgoni jwa go kolota. Gore go buelela ba a dumalana. Re go eme nokeng ra re ya go bonwe gore batho ba ba ntseng jalo, ba ba sa kgoneng dirisa magala a rona, o a dirise responsibly. Gore e tle gotlhelele, ba ba ka sekang ba dira tuelo, a bone ba ka e re ka moso bana ba rona rotlhe ka ke Batswana, ba bo seka ba batlelwa maano a sele nee, a go fetlha? ba tlhabologile. As long as you do it responsibly, ga ke bone gore Honourable Khwae le Honourable Kesupile Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, bakaulengwe ba ka omana. Gongwe ba ne ba ka re nnyaa, fela fa o ba buile ba le bantsi ba dumalana gore re mme Tona a dirisa sentle go siame. Ka mafoko a a maleele ao, wa tsa Madi, a ye go sweleletsa kadimo ya madi a. ke ne ke re ke itumelela gore ke bo ke eme ke re Rre Gore a tle a mme Tona wa tsa Kgotetso le Metsi, a ye Matambo a letlelelwe a ye go tsaya madi a. Mme Rre go reka motlakase ka go oketsa Morupule, a tsena mo Kedikilwe le ene a letlelelwe gore a tsweledise kgang Morupule B. Ke ne ke re, a seka a ema fela foo. Le e. Ke ne ke dumalana thata Madam Speaker. bo Mmamashia ba re santseng re utlwa gotwe re na le mathatanyana a go baakanya dilonyana tse di santseng MR G. SALESHANDO (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): e le difatlhi. A re di emeleng ka dinao, re di ntshe mo Ke a leboga. Madam Speaker ka bokhutshwanyane, ke tseleng re tle re fetlhe motlakase. emela go gatelela selo se le sengwe fela ke bo ke nna fatshe. Ka gobo puo e e tswa kgakala, maabane letsatsi Rraetsho, ga e ka ke ya re re na le malatlha kana magala lotlhe e buiwa. Ke ne ke re ke reye bogolo jang bagaetsho a a kanakana, re bo re reetsa ba ba tlaa tlang ba re ba kganetso gore, kana bagarona ba ba ka kwa fa ba tlisa nnyaa, re seka ra ja malatlha a rona ka a tlaa re tsenya sekoloto fa, ba a bo ba setse ba kile ba nna fa fatshe ba se mala, nnyaa. Makgoa a humile ka go ja malatlha. A ne buisanya. Ba se tlhaloganya ka botlalo. Jaanong fa ba se

Hansard No 163 Part 4 161 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) tlisa kwano go raya gore le rona re bo re ema ka dinao re gagwe. O siame o buile o ntse fa fatshe. Ka ke motlakase batle go itse menangwana e yotlhe. Gore e re ka moso fa o re yang go o duelela, go raya gore batho ba nne le o le mo kgaolong fa o bodiwa ka dilo tse di tshwanang le bokgoni. Motlakase o re buang ka one, ga gona jaaka tse, o bo o ka tlhalosa fela gore, nnyaa go tsamaile jaana o ka tswa. Ga o ka ke wa ya kwa go P1,000 kana P500 le jaana. O dumalanye le selo se o neng o se tlhaloganya, jaaka fa Tona a ne a bua, ka gore go tshwanetse gore ka gore sekoloto ka bosone ke mathata.Re direla bana sekoloto se duelwe. O o ka yang kwa tlase gongwe ke ba rona dikoloto fa re riana. Dingwaga tse 30 tse di o re ka tlang ka boranyane bongwe letsatsi lengwe fa e kwadilweng fa gore se tlaa bo se ntse se duelwa, gongwe le gore re ka nna le jone le ditlhotlhomiso tse di ka re mo dingwageng tse 15, go tlaa bo go bonwe sengwe se neelang boranyane. se ka dirang gore re palelwe ke go nna le bokgoni. Jaaka diteemane gongwe di sa dire sentle, ka gore technology, Fa e le o one, ke gore nna fa gongwe ke ipotsa gore a le e dirile se sengwe se se dirang gore diteemane e seka ya bone ba re reng mongwe le mongwe o a o tlhoka, jaaka nna tsone fela. Re bo re sa nne le bokgoni jwa go duela fa le nna ke re mongwe le mongwe o ka o itumelela. sentle. E bo e le gore bana ba rona, ba sala mo mathateng A ruri mo malwapeng a le mantsi, fa re ka ya ra botsa a dikoloto tse di dirilweng ke rona. gore ke gore fa e le food basket le gore o tlisediwe motlakase, o ne o ka amogela eng. Ke sone se go lebaganyeng gore re eme ka dinao re bue gore nnyaa mme, a re seka ra tlogela madi a Ke tsaya gore ba le bantsi ba ne ba ka re nnyaa, iketle tswa ka diphatlha tsa menwana, gore re nne le madi pele, motlakase ga e ise e nne nako ya one. Mma re bogolo jang, fa e le sekoloto se se tshwanang le sa tshware mala. Ke dumela gore bokgoni jo botona jo re gompieno, se se yang kwa mafatsheng a sele. Se borai ka bo neelang batho, ba bo ba ithekela motlakase, ke go mo dingwageng tse di masome a mararo tse di tlang, fa lwantsha lehuma mo setshabeng sa lefatshe la Botswana re sena bokgoni jwa go duela. Gongwe fa e le sekoloto ka kakaretso. Kana ra di lwantsha ka nako e le nngwe sa mo gae, go ka nna botoka. Le bagarona ga se gore ga fela. E re fa re sekaseka maano a e leng gore re ka ba ba utlwe gore ra reng. Ke tsaya gore ba lemoga sentle neela motlakase ka bo cheap jo ba ka bo kgonang, mme gore ga re bue fela, re bua ka mathata a a ka nnang teng re bo re eme gape re lwantsha le gore re ba neele bokgoni mo dingwageng tse di kwa pele tse di tlang. jwa go ka itsenyetsa motlakase ka moso.

Mongwe maabane o ne a bua gore o akgola Tona ka Fa ke setse ke buile jalo, ke ne ke tshwenyega maabane gore o nnile pelotlhomogi, madi a jaanong gompieno thata ka fa Tona wa Thuto a neng a bua ka teng. A a ya kwa go P5,000 a tswa kwa godimodimo. Ke re bua gore kana fa gongwe dikompone tsa Botswana nnyaa, batho ba bua Setswana mme ga ba se bue sentle. tse di tlang di tsena mo go thuseng gore di anamise Bopelotlhomogi go tewa o tsenya mo pateng ya gago motlakase le tse dingwe ditiro, bangwe ba rona gone fa o tswa go rekisa dikgomo o bo o duelela ba ba neng ba ke shareholders mo teng. Jaanong, fa Tona a ne a bua palelwa o isa price kwa tlase. Ga gone Tona yo o kileng jalo, nna ke ne ke bona a bua sentle. Ke re bagarona, fa a dira jalo. Yo o kileng a tsenya letsogo mo pateng gore e le gore dikompone tsa rona ke tsone tse di paledisang motlakase o tle o ye kwa tlase, batho ba le bantsi ba o sengwe le sengwe go bo go wa, re bo re bua fa jaaka bone. E bile le yone party e e busang jaaka go ne go fa Tona a ne a bua maabane, gore fa re tla fa re ipaa buiwa maabane, ga e na tshimo ya motlakase. botoka, that is not fair. A go dirwa ke ba ba ka kwa kana ke ba ba ka kwano. Fa e le gore re dira jalo, fa ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL batho ba ka lemoga gore ga re na boikarabelo… GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): Point of clarification. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL Palamente. Ke a leboga Mopalamente yo o tlotlegang. GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): Point of order Mopalamente ke ne ke re nnyaa, mafoko a tshwanetse Madam Speaker. Standing Order 47, Motsamaisa go letlelelwa go dirisiwa otlhe. Fa motlakase o le kwa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ga se letlelele se Motlotlegi godimo, fa re bua ka fa tlase ga ditlhare ka fa ra re, Khwae a se dirang se. goromente wa Domkrag yo o setlhogo yo o isetseng MADAM SPEAKER: What are you doing Honourable ditlhwatlhwa tsa motlakase kwa godimo. A e re fa Khwae? Whatever it is, stop it. a isiwa kwa tlase, gotwe goromente wa Domkrag yo o pelotlhomogi, yo o digileng ditlhwatlhwa tsa MR G. SALESHANDO: Mma ke fetse ka yone e motlakase. Ke a leboga. Madam Speaker, ya gore boleng jwa Ntlo e bo ya kwa tlase malatsi otlhe. Mo dingwageng tsa bogologolo, o ne MR G. SALESHANDO: Ke gore, kana motlakase o o le teng Madam Speaker, ka 1996 le 1995. Ke ne ke le re ya go o duelela. Ke tsaya gore mmualebe o bua la teng mme ke ne ke sa itumelele go nna mo Palamenteng

162 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) e, ka gore o ne o kare go jewa selalelo malatsi otlhe. Go a mangwe ga re a bone, ka gore Batswana bone puso boifisa. Jaanong, gompieno le leka gore go nne sentle. ya Domkrag e ba tlhobogile. Mme re tswa kgakala Batho ba bue ba le free, ba nne productive, jaanong ba dikonteraka tsa Batswana di le teng. e isitse to another extreme. Ga ba obamele sepe, go a tshamekwa, go letswa cell phones. Go dirwa dilo tse Re ne re na le Boswe, re ne ra di tlogela fa maChina a tsotlhe. Jaanong, nna e bile ke setse ke re tota 2014 o ntse a tsena mo gae, mme ba dirile ditiro ka botswapelo. tlaa tla leng ke tswe mo Ntlong e, fa e le gore ke tlaa bo Le gompieno companies tse di tshwanang le ya Boswe ke santse ke tshela. Gongwe ke ye go nna le batho ba kwa di neng di aga teng, matlo a teng ga a ise a bo a bangwe ba ba nang le boikarabelo le commitment. Fa go ranyege. Mme maChina one fa ba agileng teng, morago a bora (boring) tota. ga six months e bile go setse go buiwa gore go tshwanetse gore go batliwe madi. Re bone gore re ya go baakanya MADAM SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable dikago tse e leng gore ba ne ba tswa mo go tsone. Ke Members. Ke a lemoga gore the debate is going very gore, re bua ka batho ba e leng gore le kwa ga bone slowly. Ke sone se batho ba balang dikoranta ke sa ba mines tsa bone di tshela di wa ka gore sengwe le sengwe bone. Fa ke ka ba tshwara, ga go kake ga siama. Fa o sa bone ke sub-standard. Jaanong, ga re kake ra tswelela ka bona debate e tsamaya jaana, go raya gore tota fela re tumisa batho ba e leng gore botshelo jwa kwa gae re a buile. Jaanong, I have allowed it to go on anyway bo diphatsa mo baneng ba bone, re bo re re e tlaa re because ke akantse gore e e tlang, e tlaa bo e le go tshotlha jaanong rona fa ba tla go tsena mo ga rona, sengwe le tshunkama e sa tlhole e na le sukiri, re tlaa bo re e fetisa. sengwe jaanong se bo se ka nna sa maemo a a rileng. Tlhaloganyo ya me e ne e mpoleletse gore metsotso e re Re tshwanetse re ka bo re ithutile ka dikole tsa Gantsi le ka e somarelang kwa morago, re ka e dirisetsa Private Moeng. Dikago tse di neng di agiwa ke Kgosi Tshekedi, Members Business. Jaanong, ke ne ke re a ko le fefose le gompieno di santse di le teng. Tse di neng di agiwa ke mosepele re tle re dire jalo bakaulengwe. maChina tsotlhe they are being repaired.

MR REATILE (NGWAKETSE WEST): Tla ke Jaanong, mo go supa tota gore lefatshe la Botswana go leboge Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, le ka fa le dirang ka teng, le itsenya mo mogogorong o o nna ke tswelele ka go akgela mo kopong ya madi e boteng wa dikoloto le diphatsa tse e leng gore ka moso re e beilweng pele ke Tona wa tsa madi. Re dumele, bana ba lefatshe le ba tlile go welwa ke dikago re ntse Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, gore re ne re le re tsweletse re boka maChina. Mme re ntse re bona gore teng mo Ntlong e, fa go ne go kopiwa madi a a neng a ditlamorago tsa teng di tla di le masisi mo go feteletseng. tshwanetse go ya go oketsa motlakase kwa metseng e e Ke bua jaana, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, lekgolo, a kgang ya bo Eltel. Re ne ra e bua ka boleele, ka gore gompieno ke ne ke ntse ke bala pampiri nngwe ya buiwa ka fa e buiwang ka teng, mme ya felela e re fa, e e leng gore ba re ke yone Occasional Paper No. 44, dietse sebaka sa go isa motlakase kwa metseng. Mo e e e kwadilweng ke maChina, China in Africa Project. leng gore gongwe gompieno e ka bo e ne ya re nako ya Ba supa gore mo Botswana ba aga 18 projects, ba di fa itsholelo e tla go tshikhinyega, gongwe re bo re boile nankotse tsotlhe. Ba bua mafelo a a mo Botswana. Madi ra batla madi a mangwe ra oketsa metse e e lekgolo e e a teng otlhe e le US $740 million. Mo go raya tota gore neng ya felela e ntse 130. re tswelela ka go ntsha madi a ya kwa China. Mo gae mo go thibelela lehuma fela. Kgang e e leng teng ga re kake ra e itlhokomolosa, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ka gore tota Fa e ne e le gore re dira jaana e le gore go na le re tshwanetse re bone gore lefatshe la Botswana, ee dikompone tsa Batswana ba e leng gore ba gokaganye le go boammaaruri le adima madi, le adimela go tla go tsone dikompone tse tsa maChina, re ka bo re itse gore tlhabolola lefatshe le. Re bone gore ke ditlhabololo, mo go US $740 million yo, Batswana ba le bantsintsi ee, tse di diragalang, le Batswana jaaka bakaulengwe go na le fa e leng gore re ba inotse mo lehumeng teng. ba ne ba bua, go na le morokotso mongwe o e leng Gompieno jaana re bereka gone go supa digalase le gore ba felela ba ntse ba kgona gore ba o game. Fa e le dipente fela, lehuma lone le ntse le tsweletse le gola. gore projects tse tsotlhe tse e leng gore di a dirwa, re Ke one matshwenyego a e leng gore re tshwanetse re tlaa bo re adima madi kwa re a adimang teng, mme e bone tota gore, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, le gore batho mo lebopong o kare re mo diteemaneng. ke kgang e e leng gore re e emela ka dinao. Re bona Diteemane tsa rona kana fa o bua ka tsone, ke gore o gore tota re tsaya mathata a lefatshe le, le dilelo tsa bua fela ka ntlo yoora Openheimer. Fa re tla go tsena Batswana ka tlhwaafalo. mo dilong tsa kago jaanong, mo dikonterakeng tsone tse e leng gore di aga matamo kana dikago, fela fa o Bakaulengwe bangwe ba letse ba buile ka kgang ya bua ka kago o a itse gore go buiwa ka China, mafatshe gore motlakase kana gongwe fa o ne o ka gokelwa mo

Hansard No 163 Part 4 163 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) metseng, go ne go ka nna botoka. Ka gore Batswana tshepo mo Batswaneng. Ba dumele gore dikompone ba ne ba tlaa bo ba o reka, go bo go raya gore tiriso tse di tlang mo gae mo, ke tse e leng gore mafatshe a e nna kwa godimo. Jaanong, go boammaaruri go ka tsone a a bo a senyegetswe ke madi ka go aga tshepo kgona gore go nne jalo, mme go ka ketefalela le yone mo go bone, gore gongwe le gongwe kwa ba ka yang puso. Se e kileng ya re mo lebakeng le le fetileng ka teng, ba ka kgona gore ba gaisanye le dikompone tsa se bua, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ke gore, mafatshefatshe. Rona fa e le gore re santse re dumela fa e ne e le gore re a gokela, ke ne ke dirisa sekai sa gore Batswana ga ba na bokgoni, ga go na ope yo o Afrika Borwa, re gokela motlakase mo metseng. Ke tlaa tswang koo, e le lefatshe lepe le re nna ke tla ke baya e le sekai fela, fa e le gore batho ba le 700,000 re bolotse ke tlile go tlhabolola dikonteraka tsa lefatshe la kgonne go fitlhisa motlakase mo matlong a bone, mme Botswana gore ba kgone go gaisanya le dikonteraka tsa ba reka units tsa P50 ka kgwedi. Re tlaa bo re dira Germany, America kana China. Ke rona re le Batswana madi a a kana ka P35 million kgwedi le kgwedi. E le re tshwanetseng gore go nne le tshwetso e e tsewang e gore mo go P50 yo, ke yo o tlaa bong a reka motlakase, le sepolotiki, go bona gore tota batho ba e leng gore ke e bo e le gore ka fa thoko ka fa, re ka tsenya P50 yo baagi le boradikompone ba mo gae mo, goromente o mongwe yo o tlaa bong a duela P5, 000. Mo go raya senyegelwa ke madi mo go bone. Fela jaaka gompieno gore jaanong madi a tlaa bo a tshelesegela a le mantsi. jaana goromente a senyegelwa mo bananeng, a leka go Fa e le gore ra re re tswelela ka lone lenaneo la rona, bona gore o aga bana ba e ka reng ka moso ba kgona go go boammaaruri re fokoditse go tswa kwa go P10, 000 gaisanya le banana ba mafatshe a mangwe. go tla go tsena mo go P5, 000. Batho ba e leng gore ba ka kgona gore ba gokele, gongwe re ka bua gore Mme fela jalo le rona gompieno fa e ne e le gore re go ya go gokela batho ba le P20, 000. Mo go rayang ka tsaya one moono wa gore dikompone tsa mo gae gore fa e le gore ba reka motlakase wa P100 kgwedi le tse di nang le motlhala re bone gore re a di aga, e ne e kgwedi, re tlaa bo re dira P2 million. Mo e leng gore kare ka moso ra utlwa gore dikompone tsa rona di aga gone mo, ga go tsose letlole la BPC gore e ka tswelela kwa Angola, China, Democratic Republic of Congo e ntse e godisa go phatlalatsa motlakase mo go kalo. (DRC), ka mabaka a gore jaanong re a bo re ba agile Fa e ne e le gore re tsere madi re bo re phatlalatsa mo gore e nne ba boleng jo bo rileng. Go na le kgang fela malwapeng a Batswana, Batswana ba bo ba kgona gore e e feteletseng ya gore re bone gore bone ke batho ba ba reke tiriso, go ka bo go le botoka. e leng gore boleng jwa bone bo kwa tlase, ga ba na bokgoni. Mine wa Jwaneng Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo Ba South Africa fa ba dirileng phoso teng, Motsamaisa tsa Palamente, ke baya sekai e le sa bofelo ke tle ke nne Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke gore ba ne ba gokela fa fatshe, dikago tsotlhe tse di leng kwa Jwaneng, ga go motlakase ee, go le boammaaruri mo malwapeng na gope fa maChina a kileng a aga teng. Dikonteraka mangwe le mangwe. Ba bo ba dira phoso ya gore ba tse di agileng kwa e ne e le tsa Batswana. Batswakwa ba ye go gokela kwa mekhukhung e e leng gore ga e ka fa tsena gompieno jaana fa madi a mantsintsi a leng teng, molaong. Ka moso fa go thujwa mekhukhu eo, go raya one a Cut 8. Ke gone fa batswakwa ba tshelesegelang gore infrastructure e e neng e ya teng koo ke tatlhegelo ka mmetela teng. Fa e santse e le gore go ne go nonwa mo komponeng ya Eskom. Rona ga ke dumele gore a ka mathe, go ntse go aga Batswana. Mme dikago tsa re ka dira jalo, ka gore ga go na ope yo o ka yang go bone go ntse go thuntshiwa (blasting), ga go na epe ya gokela motlakase kwa Senthumule Ramadeluka. Re a bone e e kileng ya re ka letsatsi lepe ya ranyega e le itse gore ga se bonno jwa sennela ruri. E ka nna ya re ka mo toropong. MaChina ba tsenye kwa Jwaneng kwa moso Motlotlegi Molefhi a bo a tsena ka dikatakata a tla ba tla ka khansele, e le bone ba e leng gore ba tlile go ntsha batho ba ba ntseng jalo. Le kwa Tsolamosese go aga dikago tsele. E rile Mothusa Tautona wa nako kana Gamononyane re ka bo re ne re sa isa motlakase eo, Motlotlegi Khama a ile go bula dikago tseo, tsa ka mabaka a gore re itse gore lefatshe la teng le santse bo di lala di tserwe ke phefo. Ka moso ke go pegwa le bua. Mme kwa e leng gore ke boago jwa sennela ruri maphakela, chopper e santse e emelela kwano, go kwa metseng e e farologanyeng, motlakase oo re ka pegwa disenke gore go seka ga ba ga itsege. O kgona bo re kgonne gore re o ise teng, re bo re o gokela mo go bona tota gore dilo tse ga e ise e ko e re ka letsatsi malwapeng. Batswana ba bo ba simolola jaanong ba lepe e nne tse re ka ipelafatsang ka tsone. tshuba, re bo re gatela pele. Jaanong, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke ne Ke tlaa bua fela ka bokhutshwane thata. Kgang e ke dumela tota gore kgang e e leng teng, re amogele nngwe e ke neng ke re ke tle ke tsene mo go yone gore Tona a tseye madi, kadimo e e ye go tswelela. A ke ya gore Tona a tseye madi a a dirise. Mme rona saene, madi a tle mo gae. Ba tle go tswelela ka go bona re tswelele re ntse re kopa Matona gore ba nne le gore re nne le motlakase.

164 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Motlakase o o tlaa bong o dirwa oo, a re bone tota gore raya a re ‘nna ke ka bona P5 million, batlang motho yo e ka ditsela tsotlhe o tlile go felela o sologela Batswana leng gore o tlaa ya go tshela sekonotere. Ke tlaa pega P5 molemo. E seka ya nna motlakase o o tlaa bong e le million fa godimo ga madi one ao’. Ke ne ke rata gore gore o tlaa bo o le foo mme re ka seke re tle go kgona Matona le bone ban ne le mowa o Motlotlegi Gaolathe a go o dirisa re le Batswana. nang nao, wa go bona gore ka dinako tsotlhe re somarele thebe nngwe le nngwe e re nang nayo. Re seka ra felela Mo phuthegong tsa kgotla tse ke neng ke di tshwara, re dumela gore, e tlaa re nako nngwe re tlaa ya kwa ke boleletse Batswana gore ga go na sepe se se mo China re ya go adima madi, tsela ya Tsetseng e tlaa tla e lenaneong se ba tlaa se boning, ka gore lefatshe la dirwa.Gompieno tsela ya Tsetseng e dule mo lenaneong. Botswana le lebile dilo di le pedi. Madi a mantsi a tswa E dirilwe ga go na le fa e le bothata. Re gatela pele re go dirisiwa mo lephateng la ga Motlotlegi Kedikilwe, leba kwa e leng gore ga e ise e ko batho ba teng ba nne go bona gore motlakase jaaka re ntse re phatlalatsa gaufi le gore go ka dirwa ditsela fa ba leng teng. Fa e ne dithapo jaana,re bone gore a mme di tlisa motlakase e le gore Matona a mantsi ba ne ba dira jalo, gongwe kwa go bone. Jaanong madi go ya go patelesega gore le bo Kokong ba ba ka bo ba na le sekonotere. Jaaka a neelwe Ministry wa ga Rre Kedikilwe go bona gore sekonotere se ne se tswa mo Jwaneng se fetela kwa kwa o apewang teng, pitsana ya teng e nne yone, o Ghanzi. Ke metse e e ka bong e ne ya roba fa e ne e tle o kgone go tshola. Megala e e kwa bo Kokong le le gore nako eo, Motlotlegi Gaolathe ke ne ke le mo Tshidilamolomo e kgone go gorosa motlakase. Fa e le Palamenteng ke mo latetse, nnyaa Kokong o ka bo a na gore re tlaa bo re lwela fela gore, motlakase dithapo le sekonotere. Ke monna yo e leng gore ruri ke santse di phatlalale, di ka phatlalala mme ga gona pitsana e e ke rapela Ramasedi gore a mmeye a re mmolokele, a leng gore jaanong e tlaa tsholela tsone dithapo tse gore Modimo go nne jalo. jaanong di kgone go tlisa motlakase mo metseng. MADAM SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members Le kgang ya metsi ke yone e ke e gateletseng ke ba I see that the Honourable Minister responsible for bolelela gore bontlha bongwe jwa madi a mantsi, bo electricity wants to speak. We know that he spoke tlaa ya kwa ga Rre Kedikilwe ka mabaka a gore go yesterday. lenyora. Ke ene a tshwanetseng go tla ka ditogamaano tsotlhe tsa go bona gore Batswana gongwe le gongwe HONOURABLE MEMBER: No. fa ba leng teng ba a nwa. Le fa Domkrag e palelwa ke go nosa Batswana metsi. Re tshelela fela mo holidays MADAM SPEAKER: You did not speak. tse e leng gore di lenyora le metsi a le teng go pala fela HONOURABLE MEMBER: E ne e le clarifications gore go ye go pompiwa re tle go nwa. Ke tsone dilo fela. tse e leng gore gongwe e tlaa re letsatsi lengwe, ba nne le gore jaanong ba tlhwaafale. Ba bone gore madi MADAM SPEAKER: Was it just clarifications? a mantsintsi a re a dirisang a re bone gore pheletsong HONOURABLE MEMBER: Yes. ya teng a ya go felela a sologela Batswana molemo. E seka ya nna kgang e e leng gore tota e tumisiwa e bo e MADAM SPEAKER: Ao, but that was a very long godisiwa fela fa maChina a santse a le foo. Fa ba sena clarification. Honourable Member, I think you did go tsamaya e bo e le tsone ditlamelo tse le neng le re le speak at length. a di neelwa, ka gore maChina ga ba sa tlhole ba le foo, jaanong ga le robe sepe mo go tsone. HONOURABLE MEMBER: No Madam, ke dirile clarification fela. Kgang ya bofelo Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ka nako ya fa Motlotlegi Gaolathe e le Tona wa tsa Madi, MADAM SPEAKER: Okay, I will give you the floor e ne e re fa re mo latela, re dumela gore re ka somarela then if you were just clarifying yesterday. madi,a utlwe. Ke baya sekai ka tsela e e tswang mo MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND Lotlhakeng e ya kwa Dutlwe ya Dutlwe/Morwamosu. WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): E ne ya re fa e dirwa e ne e le gore e e tswang mo Kang Madam Speaker, Honourable Members, I plead for e ya Tsetseng, e ne e tshelwa gravel. Re ne ra latela your indulgence because yesterday I did not speak in Motlotlegi Gaolathe re mmolelela gore golo fa re tlaa bo the sense that I took the floor in my own right. I needed re senyetsa lefatshe madi. Gravel e le yang go e tshela to clarify certain points very clearly. Of course the ka gore la re ke ya boleng jo bo kwa godimo, fa e le testimony that I did not speak is indicated in the news gore jaanong le pega madi a sekonotere fa godimo, e ka bulletin. This morning at 6 a.m. there was nothing on nna bokae? A bo a botsa batlhalefi ba ditsela ga bo go the basis of the interventions that I made on behalf fitlhelwa e le gore pharologanyo ke P5million . A bo a ba

Hansard No 163 Part 4 165 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) of government. I also listened at 1.p.m. today, there limited information and I was trying to provide that was nothing. That is enough testimony that I have not information. The reserves for replacement are critical spoken and it is about time I spoke. in that there has to be some form of maintenance. Yesterday we made reference in this Honourable House I do not necessarily propose to make short intervention, to some of our neighbours facilities or utilities that came because from the points that have been made, I need to a halt financially. Virtually because not necessarily to go back to CAP 74.01 of the Botswana Power that there was cheating in bypassing the system. Yes, Corporation (BPC) which commenced in June 1970. there was some form of bypassing the system. It was The Chapter is Section 17, Finances. I wish to quote at down because there were no reserves and charges that length and then paraphrase in the end. maintained those facilities and the gadgets that had to be Madam Speaker, the Finance Chapter reads, “The used. There was also poor coal that was being used and Principles of Financial Operations”, this is of the therefore ruined the station itself. Then of course there BPC. The Laws that were promulgated by this august were better prices on coal for export. When they were Assembly. “(I) It shall be the duty of the Corporation in dire straits, then they used any piece of coal that they to conduct its affairs on sound commercial lines. In could find to the detriment and ruin of the power station. particular, to carry out its functions under this Act and So, these are the issues that must be appreciated. to prescribe the charges payable in respect of the supply Then of course in all of these, the corporation must of the corporation of the electricity. As to ensure that its also make payments to government. In other words, revenues are sufficient to produce on the fair value of dividends payments in respect of its equity and interest its assets a reasonable return measured by taking its net in the corporation. That is what this Honourable House operating income as a percentage of the fair value of its has said the BPC ought to do. So, after promulgating fixed assets in operation plus an appropriate allowance legislation as to how the BPC ought to operate, then we for its working capital. (ii) For the purposes of this cannot renege on our determination as to how the BPC section, “net operating income” means the amount ought to operate. We have also said in this Honourable of income remaining after subtracting from total House, at paragraph 21, that the BPC has a liability to operating revenues, all charges which in accordance pay taxes, levies and other charges. That law has not with generally acceptable accounting principles been amended. are chargeable to the revenue account. Including appropriate provisions for depreciation of assets, What must be added also Madam Speaker, is that the adequate maintenance and taxes, but before deducting BPC does not control the prices of poles that are used interest and other charges on borrowing or taking into in order to reticulate power. The BPC does not control account non-operating income and expenditure”. the prices of steel, cables that are used, copper and the labour costs of what goes into the inputs of what is Now the paraphrasing, the determination of what being made. So, those are some of the elements of the constitutes a reasonable return, it says, “all pertinent basic economics of the BPC. It is not as if someone income and financial consideration has been taken into one morning simply had a dream that they will account. This will include but not limited to: charge a certain price. These are the facts of life. The i) Meet interest payments on borrowings. commodities in the world, including oil that is used for pumping, in some cases the BPC does not control ii) Provide repayments to be made each year in that. For example, the crude oil at the moment is just respect of loans incurred by the corporations to about little over U$80 per barrel. BPC does not control the extent to which such payments exceeds the that. Therefore, when we make pronouncements about year’s provisions for depreciation charged to the prices being too high, at least we should also revenue accounts. The corporation must also make calculations on the components that go into that improve its services. To enable it to improve its price. One would be willing to work with Honourable services, it means there must be some amount, Members who so desire to see the basic figures that go income or some charge that come from some into the price that is being charged. Therefore we have source. to be extremely careful as to how we determine this. What must also be appreciated is that we use thermal I also made reference yesterday in my intervention and power from coal... this is in the law. Of course some of the people who made outrageous statements yesterday, of course will PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR not be around to listen to what we have got to say. Of APPROXIMATELY 25 MINUTES course it is nice to occasionally speak on the basis of

166 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND must be able to reduce the cost. That virtually, under WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): I the circumstances, might be wishful thinking because would like to thank you Mr Speaker. When we broke our corporative efforts, even as we have the Southern for tea, I had made the point relating to the generation African power pool, our corporation leaves much to of power. That, generation in this country refers to be desired. Therefore, the question of depending on thermal power being generated particularly through ourselves makes a lot of sense although it might be coal and abandoned coal reserves that we have, over expensive. This is why the determination earlier on led estimated 200 billion tonnes of that resource. Of course, us into the emergency situation that we face now. Where I had made the point that the corporation needed some we have to generate virtually; we are held ransom by reasonable funds for expansion of its activities and the mismatch between demand and supply. I will not also for improving its services. The resources are so go into the figures although I could. Therefore, the enormous and of course it is not only generation of pressure to find money for generation of six hundred electric power, we also wish to use our coal reserves megawatts of power, it is real.The alternative is the for the purposes ultimately of coal to liquid, so that we country remaining in the dark. The economy remaining can be able to have our own fuel ultimately through in the dark in the sense that, even as we have enormous coal if we can. The technology that exists is not cheap potential in the form of potential copper nickel, copper technology; it is also technology where if we are to use silver and then of course copper itself, the potentials it, lots and lots of water would be required. of other minerals that I have made mention of whether it is uranium, lead, zinc, that kind of thing, where We also wish to exploit our coal reserves by extracting in fact at least we have issued licences and they are coal bed methane gas for the generation of electricity not few licences. Therefore we will need even more as well. And then, of course, in using other sources power in order to ensure that our mining activities that of power, we hope we can be able to harness solar will assist us diversify away from diamonds. Well, of power. We have begun studies in that regard as I course we will still utilise some diamonds including reported to this Honourable House. Of course we also downstream activities, but the undue dependence on want to use biogas and other forms of energy where that sole commodity; that is what among other things we can. Hopefully, in the combination of these various we are aiming at. So that is the issue. possible sources, maybe one can strike a medium unit cost that might be reasonable. I cannot say, it depends The alternative as I indicated yesterday,will be if we on the commodities as I indicated before we broke for think even 5,000 cannot do. It is very simple, a subsidy. A tea. So, this is what we face Honourable Speaker with subsidy means the opportunity cost is other projects and respect to our own legislation on how Botswana Power that we have to forego whether it is a school, road or as I Corporation (BPC) ought to operate. We are doing indicated yesterday. These things are real and they must the level best we can to ensure that there are enough be said. Members of Parliament, being the Legislature, funds coming into corporation. At the same time, we ultimately will have to make a determination as to want to make sure that we reticulate electricity to what goes, because the resources will never be enough. this sparse land as much as possible. As we speak, Anyway, they will be limited, they will always be finite, Seronga, Middlepits, Gakhibana, Khawa; power is therefore, that is the choice we have. The only plea is there. We are only 1.7; 1.8; in other words, the size of that, the House cannot afford to look at each item to the some small town in some other country. Imagine if we exclusion of other items. It is a wholesome consideration. were all in one place, go sena bo Sefhophe, Kachikau, Subsidies; the prices of the commodities that we use; Mbalakalungu (ngwaga wa dibaga). Rona le Seyei re a the utilities, prices not being too hard particularly on the se leka; lefatshe le ke la rona le. Anyway Mr Speaker, poor. This is why the rates are graded in the manner that that is the issue. they are, in order to attempt to achieve that. That should take me to the next point. Of course the transportation cost, let alone from commodities that we use from overseas. Even within Electricity standard costs; the grouse is that even 5,000 our own country, the expanse of this land contributes is too high. The question is what then do we think would to the relative expense of what we sell in terms of the be reasonable? In my estimation, and other Members law that was promulgated by this very House. So these have indicated that, at least as of now, 56.4 to be are the issues that ought to be appreciated. This is exact of the households in Botswana have connected why we are keen to import where we can, particularly under the current circumstances. One assumes that if hydro generated power, in the hope that because their we went down to 5,000 plus 5 thebe per kilowatt, that unit cost are less,of course, if we were to blend, we should generate enough funds for the one that we have

Hansard No 163 Part 4 167 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) established and starting to collect the 1st of April, so Other questions like the citizen economic empowerment; that we can be able to get there. Of course then, if we my colleague the Minister of Finance and Development still think the 5,000 is too high, then the alternative Planning will handle those. Some of us have tabled would be again, a huge subsidy or a loan. The question motions in this House specifically on citizen economic is that, we cannot afford a loan without endangering empowerment and we are not going back on the our credit spending and other projects in this country. principles behind citizen economic empowerment, just This is the wholesome view that we in this Honourable as other issues we have tabled in this Honourable House. House ought to adapt to. Merely accuse one utility of And we have no reason in principle to go back on our being too expensive to the exclusion of what goes into perceptions, determinations and convictions. that expense and sustaining that utility, service and expanding that service, then we will not be doing the There were correlations and analogies made with House a good service, we will be doing a disservice respect to water for example, that it is also too to our people. Our people must be told the truth as to expensive. We should not put it at such an expense as what the realities are. if we are importing it from the island of Comoro. Yes, our Comoro is right here; Dikgatlho Dam in relation to Of course in today’s terms, we are not saying everybody taking water to Gaborone, Tonota, Kanye, Good Hope has ten heads of cattle or ten units of livestock. to Molapowabojang. If it were enough, we would of However, in today’s terms, virtually even a weaner, course take it to Kgalagadi as well. So, someone has something better than a weaner; a tolly, a reasonable to pay for the North South Carrier; the second one to one will give you P5,000. It might be P3,000 if it is too take water there. That water has to be pumped. People poor, two therefore definitely will give you P5,000. I am have to be paid, still it is not cheap. Whatever else goes confident that other people will be able to connect on into ensuring that water is clean and the determination that basis. If they use their electricity in the suggested again is that all these dams that we are building now, manner, by way of ensuring that the gadgets are used water has to be treated. The people of Botswana must reasonably, they should be able to afford electricity. have clean water and that clean water is our Comoro. Even as they are able to connect now although the numbers are not good enough. Someone has to pay and these are serious considerations with respect to what we are doing. We need your What I also intend to do Mr Speaker, is at an assistance in terms of telling our people the truth about appropriate time, make a public statement, hopefully the realities of what we face in an expansive land when Parliament is meeting. To inform Members of that makes the provision of utilities that expensive. the public with respect to the electricity connection This is the reality that we face. Those of us that are standard cost, the intention. I have already done the charged with the shepherding of these activities must drafts; question and answer; what is the electricity be understood not as cruel messengers, but as people standard cost? What is five thebe per kilowatt hour? that must be cruel if necessary in order to be kind. So Can someone do over a number of months if they so that this land gets the utilities that it so badly requires. wish, how would it work? Is there a time when interest might be charged or when it might not be charged. That Mr Speaker, on the question that we should offer our kind of thing, all sorts of questions. The question and people the opportunity to participate, because there answer are intended to inform and also seek assistance are so many engineers and other technicians in this of members of the public and Members of this House. land, again we must make reference to that. This is To say what questions we have left out which should because what I hold here is a summary of the Principal have been asked and answers given by my Ministry; Engineers, Senior Engineers, Chief Hydrological question and answer to inform and as broadly as we Engineers, Principal Water Engineers, Chief Economic possibly can. So this is where we stand. As some Geologists, Principal Economic Geologists; Chief Honourable Members have indicated, they think the Geophysicists; the vacancies that exist. P5,000 is too high, then we have to stop somewhere I am not even including the vacancies that exist for or have to start somewhere. To simply sympathise example; I have the South East District, the Central and wail with our people will not take us anywhere. District, Southern District and the North East District Groaning and mourning and nursing of teeth will where we need all types of technicians and engineers. not help them. Someone must start somewhere and The vacancies for example, in the Department of Mines those who have some form of resources, gunner those at the moment are six. Of course what is important is resources, marshal them, to ensure that there is light in that, the adverts locally and internationally some take their House. up to more than 36 months before we get some form of

168 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) response. I hope our people who are looking for jobs Then of course copper mining that has resumed and are listening that we need Principal Engineers in their it is serious at Mowana, Dukwi or Mosetse. I am very numbers. We need Senior Engineers, Water Engineers, careful about which name I use, because there is some Mining Engineers, the Principal Energy Engineers and local war going on as to where that mine is. That all sorts. At the moment at least in my Ministry alone, ultimately is going to incorporate Matsitama and we it is 30 and we are struggling to find them. Of course will need power. Therefore, at this point in time we the other reason is that we are training them, but the need to walk this tight road of balance between the private sector is also expanding. expense and between providing the service.Ensuring that we diversify the economy. You cannot diversify the In fact, when I did the recent tour kwa Qangwa I found economy to any great extent unless there is sufficient our former employees there. It is a good thing and that power generation. You will also need the manpower in is where hopefully some day we will be able to mine order to take that exercise. lead and zinc. They are the basic Geologists and some of them are excellent and this is why they are able to I think looking at my notes; this is the plea that I have be attracted to the private sector by companies from made. As I said, my colleague, the Minister of Finance Australia, New Zealand and God knows where else. and Development Planning will cover other items by This is the reality that we face at this moment in time. the World Bank, including the African Development We plead for understanding because the job market at Bank. They are looking up to the Botswana Power least in this area so far, it is reasonably good. Particularly Corporation (BPC) in terms of the law that I have for the ones that are good. Therefore, let them come just quoted, that Section 17, that BPC will be able to forward and we will give them the opportunity. The pay these loans. The BPC must pay these loans by programmes, particularly for localisation and the generating enough revenue in terms of the law. If we shadowing in some cases do exist. think they should not do that, then, provide enough funds for subsidy in order to ensure that the level of Similarly, in the private sector and I suppose you can payments is made. The World Bank has said, “we better call it poaching, but the labour market is mobile and look at our rates” because, they want to make sure that volatile. The metallurgists are in great demand let alone the funds are repaid. This is the Bible according to the engineers. All sorts of fellows and even technicians Moses and there I rest my case. at the boiler maker level are in great demand. They are able to move from Tati to Debswana to God knows MAJ. GEN. PHETO (KWENENG EAST): Mma ke wherever else. go leboge Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mme ke tlhomamisetse Tona fa ke amogela kopo. Sengwe I have also said, we have issued licenses and virtually se se intumedisang thata mo kopong e, ke thulaganyo almost 800 for activities that are taking place right now e e dirilweng ke ba lekgotla la motlakase (BPC). Go that is exploration. All of the people that we are talking tlhomamisa gore tshireletso kana bontlha bongwe jwa about here are required by those. There are prospects for tshireletsego ya madi a a adimiwang, re lemoga fa example, for copper/silver between Kuke and Maun. dibanka di neetswe thulaganyo eo. Re ete re ngongorege Those are at least on paper, in terms of the geology, they mo Palamenteng gore fa gongwe go adimiwa madi are very good prospects. According to the estimate, that bokgakaleng. Go sa fiwe dibanka tse di mo gae, gore will take no less than at least 50 years of serious mining. le tsone di ka ntsha seabe sa go adima ba tle ba nne le Of course we will need the geologists, geophysicists and thulaganyo ya go sela sengwe mo morokotsong. the likes of people of that kind of ilk. Then of course around Sehithwa, we will still need the same type of Jaanong re lemoga mo kopong e fa e le gore, selekanyo people. They hope to start this year, though we have sa madi a didikadike tse tlhano le sephatlo sa borataro problems of power. They are either going to have to use (P5.6 billion) ke madi a e leng gore ba BPC ba expensive thick diesel generation or we would have to sirelediwa mo kadimong ke ba Standard Bank, ba find funds. Assuming we conclude Morupule or even tshwaraganye le ba Industrial and Commercial Bank before we conclude Morupule, so that we are able to of China. Ke ka leboga fa gongwe dibanka tsa mo gae harness power from there and extend it to Maun at high di ka feta bongwe, di ka bo di ne tsa nna le seabe mo voltage. Then break it down at Maun to service the kind thulaganyong e, gore madi a morokotso ba tle ba nne of discovery metals where there is copper mining. Then le go bona sengwe mo go one. of course also take it to Shakawe and service those other areas and reduce our dependence on foreign lands as the Jaanong fa re leba madi a a adimiwang a selekanyo wise saying goes “lamakotswa ga le na kgodu”. That is sa didikadike tse di makgolo a ferang motso o le the way we are going in terms of our own independence. mongwe fela le masome a mararo le motso a di Pula,

Hansard No 163 Part 4 169 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) ke thulaganyo e Tona a kopang Palamente e gore, e mo kgang e ya tuelo tse di diretsweng kwa pele gape tsa letle gore, a kope kwa bankeng ya ditshabatshaba. Ke selekanyo se se dirilweng mo kgweding ya September ne ke re go molemo go supega mo kopong ya ga Tona ka ngwaga wa 2008. Ke sengwe sa dilo tse gape e leng gore, thulaganyo ya dituelo e re fa sebaka sa go hema. gore di a nametsa. Sa go kgwa setshwe mo dingwageng tse nne, pele fa re ka simolola go duela mo lebakeng la dingwaga tse di Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke ne ke re ke masome mararo. Selo se le sone se a itumedisa, gore se latlhele go le kalonyana ke tle ke fe ba bangwe sebaka bo se dirilwe jalo ka go bo go tlhofofaletsa yone puso. kgotsa re tswalele kgang. E bo e le gore jaaka fa kadimo e nna teng, BPC e bo e MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, please ka kgona go duela. Selo seo re a se lebogela. respond to the debate and move thereafter.

Letlhoko la motlakase ka fa le ntseng ka teng mo MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT lefatsheng leno, fa o leng teng go na le ditlhaelo tse di PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Thank you Mr tona thata, ka gore, ga o a katologa mo go lekanyeng Speaker. I had originally intended to be brief. Since I mo metseng ya rona ya magae. Motho o ka supa have realized that the culture here is that there is no hurry mo dikgaolong tse ke di emetseng tsa bo Kopong le in Africa. Since I am a true African, you will bear with me Lentsweletau jalo. Ke re le tse dingwe tse e leng gore if I take longer. I would have otherwise done in a situation ga di ise di nne le motlakase gotlhelele, re batla gore a where there is seriousness of purpose and productivity. thulaganyo e, e dirwe ka pela gore e tle e re fa go ntse go tsweletse, ba BPC le ba Morupule ba kgone gore ba That having been said Mr Speaker, I indeed would like thuse gore, mo lefatsheng leno re bone motlakase o o to thank all Honourable Members without exception, lekanyeng. O re o tlhokang mo magaeng a rona. for their unanimous support for the raising of the loan that is before you. I have of course taken note of the Go na le go tswelela re ikaega ka mafatshe a mangwe comment by Honourable Mmolotsi of Francistown fa go tla go tsena mo thulaganyong ya gore motlakase South that his was the last support for any borrowing. re ka re go o isa kwa setshabeng, ra bo re o tsaya kwa I am not surprised that he is not in the House today, bathong ba bangwe. Selo se ga se re eme sentle. Jaanong because the next item will be yet another request to raise go tlile go nna bothata. Mafatshe a mangwe a jaanong a loan. Maybe the danger with that kind of comment fa letlhoko le tiriso ya motlakase e godile, mo ba sa is that I was intending that in the next expansion of kgoneng gore ba ka kgona go tsutlagana motlakase le Nyangabwe Hospital, I will be going to raise a loan for rona, e bo e le gore jaanong go iteba bone pele. Selo se, that purpose. I now know that he is going to deny the se bo se tla se re babalela. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa people of Francistown the expansion of that hospital Palamente, ke selo se se itumedisang fela thata. E bile ke by not approving the financing of it. leboga fela thata gore ke bo ke bona gore ka kakaretso kana bontsi jwa rona, go supega sentle gore re amogela Mr Speaker, I also want to make some general observation. kopo ya ga Tona. Ke re selo se re ka se lebogelang fela Here I am following on the footsteps of Honourable ke gore ka fa Tona a buang ka teng, ka boammaaruri... Gilson Saleshando. I think he is right in saying that in this House we must, as I have indicated, show seriousness HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ikotele. of purpose, we must show that we are different from MAJ. GEN. PHETO: O ka bo one wa bolelela ba ba children. I also have observed from him that responsible buileng pele. Ebile ke emetse kgaolo ee atlhameng go communication is very important. The way he said it, I was gaisa Mogoditshane. attracted to what he was saying, because of the manner in which he said it. That is, kana what they are asking for, Ke re bagaetsho thulaganyo e, e botlhokwa. A e dirwe especially that side, is information because we this side ka bofefo gore lefatshe la rona re bone gore tlhaelo might have discussed it before. Which might be true and kgotsa kgaogo e e kanakana e e nnang kgapetsakgapetsa that they want to be exposed to the same information. It ya motlakase, e bo ele gore dikgwebo le morafe ka is one thing to put it like that, I even felt that I think when kakaretso ba senyegelwa ke dilo tse ba di beileng mo time allows in the next session of parliament, maybe I ditsidifatsing. La bofelo ba bo ba nna le ditlhatlhegelo should take the opportunity to call an all party caucus tse di tona. Golo moo go ka re thusa thata. A e re mo to brief and educate. I hope there would not be the slow lebakeng le le ka kgonegang, tiro eo e dirwe ka bofefo. ones. I am noticing some slow ones, because we have to Re tle re tlhomamise gore re bona thuso e e leng gore re repeat things. I hope that we can do that. So I thank you e tlhokile mo lebakeng le le leele ya go bona motlakase Honourable Gilson Saleshando on that point of how we o re ka o ikanyang. Ke sone se ke buang ka sone. Kere should be moving forward.

170 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) I am not going to respond to everybody who spoke. bidding. It is just going to be international competitive Most of you were supporting. Indeed I want to take my bidding. The World Bank is not owned by one country. time to respond to a few things. It is owned by many countries around the world. Therefore, when they provide a loan, they are going I am starting with Honourable Mmolotsi. I am not to insist on international competitive bidding, because going to respond point by point, because otherwise the members of the Bank are the countries around the people may not notice the difference. This is point that world. Each one of them would like to benefit or their he has been hammering on about ministerial houses; I companies must benefit, including Botswana. do not want to talk about ministerial houses. I have not been in those houses. Therefore, I am not able to judge The other thing that I want to mention is that, there has just by seeing them from outside what their value is. been too much say about getting this money sometimes I think the point of principle in what he was saying, from China and the money goes back to China. We get which I would like to strongly support, is that as we it from Germany, it goes back to Germany and so forth. continue as a Government to make investment, our Why should we be surprised about that, these are facts objective should be to get value for money. So that is the of life.These big loans that we are getting here now, general principle that I agree with. I am not going to be the money is not going to go back to the World Bank. hammering on small examples like ministerial houses. Except by way of us repaying. In terms on expenditure, I think the most important point is the principle. I can assure you right now that the bulk of it is not going to be spent in this country. Why? Because we Let alone police uniform, I think Honourable Tshireletso are going to use it to import capital equipment which has addressed that one very well, by asking the people is not available in this country. I wish it were, but it is who are wearing the uniform gore a e a baba. We have not. The turbines and transformers that we are going to been told gore ga e babe, e siame fela. So now we be buying. Ga re bue ka the little things that we put for know that some statements can just be made for what domestic use. We are talking of big capital equipment. they are worth; which is little actually. The truth has I am afraid it is not available in this country. Therefore, been told by those who are wearing the uniform. a large part of it, I am not saying the whole loan, but a Now on the terms and conditions of loan, again because large part of it is going to be spent outside the country. we have to repeat. For some people it takes long to Just by the nature of things. If we are going to be buying understand, comprehend and appreciate than others. I coal, it is abundant in this country. It can be bought here. am afraid I am going to have to repeat, that the terms On these terms and conditions Mr Speaker, I just want and conditions of these lending institutions are many to end with two points: the first point I have already and in volumes. Yesterday actually I had one of the indicated that we will be quite happy next time to have books. The important things as far as I am concerned, a seminar with Honourable Members to talk about is that we are only going to bring to this Honourable terms and conditions. Most importantly, the message House, the terms and conditions that are relevant to the I want to drive home is to inform the Honourable loans. That we are putting before you. I must indicate Members that the people we sent to negotiate these that in fact, although they are in volumes (terms and loans, the technical people from the Ministries and the conditions), it is not all of them which would apply people from the Ministry of Finance and Development especially to Botswana. These lenders, as somebody Planning, are not only professional at what they are has said it before, have dealt with Botswana for a doing, which is negotiating, I want to tell you that they long time. They have come to know that Botswana love this country as much as everybody else here. I and administration of this country is a prudent am talking about something I used to do. It should administration. So you will find that in many instances not appear as though some people love this country there will be conditions which will apply in some more than others. They do their best in the interest of countries. Which do not apply in the case of Botswana. Botswana, that I can tell you. I am talking about the So that is why we have tended to bring to you the terms officials who do this job. So it is very disheartening and conditions that we think are relevant. sometimes when you here all kinds of comments to people who are doing their job. There are some conditions; I should be honest, which are not negotiable. I think I should say it straight, That having been said. Let me attend to what there are some conditions with all these lending Honourable Goya said.Which was very good. The institutions which are not negotiable. For example, if thirty years repayment is a long period. Yes I accept you are getting a loan from the World Bank as we are that, but there is a scope for prepayment except that, as now, you cannot negotiate international competitive you are very well aware, even in commercial banking,

Hansard No 163 Part 4 171 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) if you prepay, there is sometimes a penalty but it is up what I have been talking about. We have a procedure to us. If at some point in time, as we go along we get that we call, in these large projects, in implementing some resources, we can always prepay. large projects, it is called unbundling. Now I have been talking about this without concrete information. Today Honourable Mangole, you had a good point when you said, I do have information, at least some information. I will you suspect that sometimes even through the tendering not bore you with too much detail. If you take these big process there is over pricing. Maybe people believe there dams and I will specify which ones I am talking about is a lot of money in Botswana.Sometimes I also suspect and I specify what job is being done there and for how that. Maybe this is a result of le rona sometimes fa re much by citizen contractors. tsamaya mo re kopa madi, re kopa as if re kopa thata. When you said we should estimate the cost first I wanted The Lotsane Dam, which is ongoing. I mentioned this to say Honourable Member, that is actually done. Gakere yesterday but I want to confirm. Construction of houses we have got these consultants that we hire, we have got is being done by citizen contractors, the value is P10.400, our own people. Before we go to tender there is an in- 000. Then there is the access road, it is being done by house estimation of what this project might cost. The citizen contractor at the value of P20 million. Dikgatlhong quantity surveyors are able to do that and so forth. So by Dam, citizen contractors are doing access road at the the time we go to tender, there is a benchmark that we are value of P45 million and staff housing at P9.3 million. looking at but invariably there will be tenders which are well above that and others which are below. At the end of MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification the day I just want to assure you that the adjudicators of Mr Speaker. I just want to appreciate the figures that these tenders will be looking at some benchmark that had you are reading to us. What percentage of those figures been estimated beforehand. is to the contract value?

I am going towards the end. I think Honourable Arone MR MATAMBO: Thank you very much Honourable was commenting when Honourable Tshireletso was Speaker and Honourable Member. It is very easy to on the floor, about whether there have ever been any calculate once I mention these amounts and then the loans that we were asked not to pay in due course of total cost of the project. It can be done later, but right time. Yes, I can confirm that we have had a couple of now I do not have the calculator to do it. countries which extended loans to us and then after we I have talked about Dikgatlhong Dam. The next is these have repaid maybe for five years or so, they say, ‘in the big schools that we are constructing in this country, the circumstances which you are, being a good country and Gaborone Technical College and the expansion of the because you are using this money precisely for what ATTS. The cost of electrical works is being done by you had asked for’, then they forgive and the money is citizen contractor at the value of P16 million. The next converted into grant. That has happened with Japan, I is the College of Arts and Applied Technology in Oodi. think it has happened with China, those two countries. Yes the foreign contractor is the Chinese, but again the China, the very China that we are now talking about cost of electrical and mechanical works is being done everyday, it has happened. by citizens contractors at P30 million. It is not small Mr Speaker, as I said I thought I was concluding. A lot sums of money. has been said about this citizen economic empowerment. Mogoditshane Senior Secondary school, the electrical I again want to say people that side talk about it so much works done by citizen contractor, the works cost P40 that it is as if there is somebody who does not like it. million. This is not small money, it may be a lower We all like citizen empowerment, I can tell you I like percentage than we would have liked in relation to the it. I have said here every now and then, that it is not as total cost, but this in absolute terms is not small money. if it is a total blank situation. These things are already happening. I must accept we want more of what I am Mmadinare Senior Secondary, again electricals done going to tell you now to happen in a bigger scale, but it by citizen contractor costing P20 million. is happening. I want to say that I want to encourage my Shakawe, electrical works done by two citizen colleagues, Ministry of Transport and Infrastructure, to contractors, the cost of electrical works is P60 million. look at this issue. The practicability of it. Whether we I can go on and on Mr Speaker. can say this percentage of this project should be done by Batswana only and so forth or whatever method. I would Francistown Airport, of course the contractor, I do not like to say, I personally accept that as a principle maybe know where one comes from, the other one is Chinese that is something we should look at. For now, I do want I am afraid. The amounts being done by the citizen to take the opportunity to demonstrate in concrete terms

172 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading contractors, one of them is P86 million, another one present to this Honourable House for consideration the is P10 million. Morupule B Power Station Project (African Development Bank) (Loan Authorisation) Bill, 2010 (Bill No. 3 of HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of 2010) which provides for part funding for the project. clarification Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I have already given the background, the MR MATAMBO: Ke ne ke santse ke fetsa Francistown description of the project and the total cost thereof in Airport. my earlier presentation in connection with the World HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of Bank Loan Authorisation Bill. clarification Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I now propose that the Government raise a MR SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister has just said loan from the African Development Bank amounting to he wants to complete about two sentences pertaining to 153 million Euro equivalent at the time of preparing the Francistown Airport. Please give him chance, he shall Bill to P1.5 billion for part financing the project. The yield. More so that you have just come in Honourable proposed loan from the African Development Bank will Kwelagobe. finance the purchase and installation of Morupule B to Isang Transmission Line, Isang Sub Station, reactive MR KWELAGOBE: Ke tla ka maoto a me Mr compensation equipment and commissioning fuel. Speaker. The terms that are relevant of this loan are as follows; repayment period 20 years, grace period 4 years, interest Ke re Tona o a supa ka fa citizen contractors di tsenang rate Euribor plus 40 basis point, front end fee 0.25. ka teng. Ke re ke mmotse gore a fa citizen contractor Euribor is the interest rate at which banks can borrow kwa Shakawe e neetswe electrical works. Se se neng funds from other banks under the Euro Interbank se pala gore e nngwe citizen contractor e neelwe matlo Market. Euribor is currently 0.97 per cent. My Ministry, a staff gore contractor ene a bo a lwa le the bigger like in the other loan, has carried out the analysis of the building go pala eng? terms and has concluded that they are affordable.

MR MATAMBO: Thank you Honourable Member. The Therefore I move that the Morupule B Power problem with the Honourable Member is as you have Station Project (African Development Bank Loan) said Honourable Speaker, that he comes late and then (Authorisation) Bill, 2010 (Bill No. 3 of 2010) be read talks. I have already gone through houses in the earlier a second time. Thank you. examples. So Mr Speaker, lest I become too much of an African who does not put a lot of value in productivity. MORUPULE B POWER STATION I think I will stop here. As I say the best way to proceed PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT is that we would be quite happy, because we have got BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) nothing to hide, to explain these terms and conditions BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) when we have got the time. Have a seminar with MPs to explain the citizen thing. At some stage I hope that we Second Reading will bring to this House the citizen empowerment policy ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND that we have been talking about. SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Having said that Mr Speaker, it is now my pleasure Mong wa me fa e ne e se gore ke bone Honourable with the support I have received to move that the Modubule a eme ka dinao. Ke ne ke tlaa bo ke emela Morupule B Power Station Project (World Bank Loan) gore ke eme nokeng gore re tswelele. Re mme Minister (Loan Authorisation) Bill, 2010 (Bill No. 2 of 2010) be a ye to conclude loan e, ka gore dikgang re di buile di read the second time. Thank you Mr Speaker. ya go tshwana. This is a part loan ya the same project. Fa e ne e se gore ke bone yo mongwe a ema ka dinao, i Committee- later date. would move gore let the question be now put. In respect for the Honourable Member who also stood to want to MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT comment, I will be loathe to do that. So I will not do. (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN Fela gone ke ne ke re re a buile batho betsho. I stand to AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) support the Minister, I think we should save time. Second Reading MR KWELAGOBE: On a point of procedure Mr MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT Speaker. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente yo o PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): I have the honour to tlotlegang, go na le mokgwanyana o mongwe o a bo o

Hansard No 163 Part 4 173 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading simolola go tsena mo tsamaisong ya Palamente. Gore Jaanong sengwe sa dilo tse e leng gore Motsamaisa fa batho ba setse ba lebile gore Palamente e ya go Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, di a ntshwenya ke gore, tswalwa, ba batla gore ba kgoreletse batho go bua. Golo jaaka Motlotlegi Tona a ne a bua, gore gongwe go tlaa fa Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, re tletse go re in future, ba re tseye gongwe re nne le kitso e e tla go buelela batho ba rona. Jaanong re hiretswe go tletseng ka terms and conditions tsa loans pele fa di tla bua. Fa bo minister ba buile dilo tse kwa cabinet, ka fa. Ga ke na mathata a gore re bo re ka itsisiwe ka gore, tswee-tswee a ba nne ba mma le rona re di bua fa. selo se se tona ke gore fa o ya go dumalana le selo, tota le wena o bo o ikgotsofaditse ka mabaka otlhe a loan e MR RAKHUDU: On a point of order Mr Speaker. leng gore a mo go one. Tona gone fa, o tlhophile tse ene The Honourable Member for Molepolole South is a tsayang gore di botlhokwa gore Palamente e di itse. extremely out of order. I stood to speak in support Jaanong gongwe ga se tse rona re ka di tsayang gore di and I concluded my debate very briefly, to allow other botlhokwa thata go na le jaaka ene a akantse. Jaanong members to speak. The problem is that ga a tsene ke sone se se botlhokwa thata gore kwa bofelong Tona, Palamente, jaanong ga a ke a utlwa. Ga go na yo o ke na le tumelo ya gore kakanyo e o neng o e bua ke rileng the question be put. I said I will be loathe to do yone gongwe e ka re thusang. Gore pele ga go tliwa that and that I will allow other members particularly kwa Palamenteng, fa go na le loans tse di ntseng jaana Honourable Modubule to speak. Jaanong he is out le setse le di kopile e bile le di neetswe, jaaka le di of order and you must rule him out of order. He just neetswe ka conditions tse le di filweng ka tsone. Gore wastes our time and imputes improper motives a re re fa board of directors ya African Development Bank ba buile kwa cabinet. kopana ba bo ba approve this loan ya Euro 153 000 MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Please Honourable 000, e ne e le ka mabaka a a setseng a dumalanwe. Minister. Bagaetsho much as I agree with the Ke sone se ke reng ka nako eo, le ka bo le ne le rona Honourable Member for Molepolole South, that re le Palamente ra tsewa into confidence. Ra bolelelwa Honourable Members should be free to advocate for gore kana bagaetsho we are raising a loan le banka e, developments on behalf of their constituents if not mme these are the terms and conditions tsa loan ka fa constituencies. We need to be very much aware of di ntseng ka teng. Jaanong gompieno o kare re kopiwa the fact that Honourable Members are expected to go ya go raise loan and yet the loan has already been be sensitised towards productivity. And Honourable raised. Ke go ya go e saenela fela. Ke dingwe dilo tse Rakhudu could not be more correct if not relevant e leng gore nna di a ntshwenya Tona. Gore fa re bereka because Standing Order 45 (1) is free for all Members ka fa e leng gore Palamente e dirisiwa ka teng, ga ke of Parliament to quote. Realising that we have long dumele e le tsela e e tlhamaletseng. gone circumloquaciously, we must move forward. Le fa go ntse jalo ke re rra, kana ga gona ka fa re ka MR MODUBULE (LOBATSE): Nnyaa, mma ke go ganang gore re nne le motlakase wa rona mo lefatsheng leboge Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Sa ntlha la rona. Re kgone gore batho ba rona ba seka ba ikaega ke supe gore gongwe jaaka batlotlegi ba bua, kgang ka mafatshe a sele, jaaka re ntse re ikaegile ka mafatshe ya gore re kope madi go tsweledisa Morupule (B) a mangwe. Mo e leng gore gompieno re na le mathata. Power Station Project, e tsere sebaka. E tsaya sebaka Fa South Africa e re, nnyaa motlakase jaanong o lekanye ka dikarolo tse di farologaneng, ka jaana go adimiwa rona fela, go raya gore rona ka kwano re nna mo lefifing. madi mo makalaneng a a farologaneng. Ke gone mo e Ke sengwe sa dilo tse e leng gore ga gona ka fa re ka leng gore fa gongwe go a patika gore batho ba akgele ganang gore le rona, re itirele mo e leng ga rona. Fela mo dikarolong tse di farologanyeng. Ka ga re bue ka tumelo ya me ke gore in future, a e re fa loans tse di ya go madi a le mangwefela. Re sa tswa go bua ka madi a dirwa bagaetsho, a Palamente e tsewe into confidence. E World Bank. Gompieno re bua ka a a adimiwang kwa itsisiwe mabaka otlhe a e leng gore a tlaa bo a amega mo African Development Bank. Jaanong ke sone se e leng loaning pele ga re dumalana, le gore re tlaa tsaya loan gore ke ne ke ema ka sone Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo ya go nna jalo. Ka gore mo nakong e re buang ka yone, tsa Palamente. Ke na le tumelo ya gore ke ema Tona ke tsaya gore tota ke gore re go neele sebaka se, gore le nokeng gore a ye go saenela madi a, ka tota o setse a a ye go saenela madi ao a tle go dirisiwa. Ka gore yone adimile. Ke tseela gore Tona o a itse gore ba setse ba loan has already been approved. kopile madi a ba a filwe ka di 28 tsa ga October 2009. Therefore se se kopiwang mo Palamenteng ke gore re MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification beye monwana fela gore Tona a ye go a saenela. Ga se Mr Speaker. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo gore ke gone a a kopang. tsa Palamente. Ke ne ke re ke kope tlhaloso mo go mokaulengwe. Ke ne ke utlwa a bua gore kopo kana

174 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading mafoko a Tona a a tlisang kwano, ke fela gore re mo gona ope yo o tlaa nkgannang go e buelela. Jaanong, fe tetla a ye go saena e seng gore a ye go kopa. Ke re ke ema nokeng Tona mo kopong ya gagwe. Tota fela gongwe a re itsise gore mme gone tsamaiso ke eng, ka gore kopo e ke go tlaleletsa kopo ya ntlha ntlha, e e gore a o tshwanetse gore a tle kwano a setse a kile leng gore o ne a e beile Palamente pele. Ka gore fa re a buisanya a itse gore a go ka kgonagala kana ga go ka seke re dumalane gore motlaleletsa o wa kadimo o kgonafale, ka na a tle kwa go rona fa e santse e le nne teng, go tlaa pala gore ele ya ntlhantlha e fele. mogopolo fela? Jaaka bakaulengwe ba buile, mongwe o ne a bua gore MR MODUBULE: Nnyaa, ga ke itse rra Tona o tlaa rona ka segarona re a re, “mpha mpha o a lapisa motho tlhalosa gore tsamaiso ke eng. Ke ene mong o kgonwa ke sa gagwe”. Ke re, re ntse mo dingwageng wa kgang. Nna se ke se buang ke gore madi a setse tse di fetileng Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente a kopilwe, madi a setse a le approved kwa African re ikaegile thata re reka motlakase kwa mafatsheng a National Development Bank. Gore o tshwanetse go tla mangwe. Kwa Eskom kwa South Africa, re ne re reka re kwano ka stage se fega ke itse, ka gore kwano a re o bo re kopa motlakase koo. Motlakase wa rona gompieno kopa gore a ye go raise a loan which I am saying no, it jaana, e a re o ntse o ntse fela go bo go re tshoo! Mo go is not to go and raise a loan, the loan has already been rayang gore go botlhokwa gore re nne le se e leng sa raised. Ke go ya go saenela madi ao fela gore a tle. Ke rona. Re setse re tlodile re ile kwa bo Mozambique. Le sone se ke se buang. ka fa boseja jole jwa lefatshe la rona jo e leng gore batho ba teng ga re ba tshephe thata. Re setse re ya teng le Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, jaaka ke ne ke bone re ya go reka motlakase. Letsatsi le re tlaa bong re bua gore kana ga gona gore re ka a gana. Ka mabaka a ba kgopisitse ka sengwe ba a o kgaola. Re bo re nna mo gore it is part of the project yotlhe gore kana African lefifing. Kgotsa batho ba bone e bo e le gore ba tlolela Development Bank is going to provide 25 per cent of ka kwano, ba tla go re tshwarisa bothata. Motlakase the project, China, ICBC le Standard Bank 59 per cent, mo lefatsheng la Botswana Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo our government 15 per cent and then the World Bank tsa Palamente, o tura go tura mo go gakgamatsang. O 11 per cent. Which makes100 per cent of the project. kwa godimo jaaka o bona o feta kwa godimo. O tlhaela So project e yotlhe, e na le batho ba e leng gore ba Batswana. Jaanong fa e le gore go ka diragala gore mo go yone. These are the components tse di dirang re bone madi a Tona a a kopang, gore a tle a gokelele the whole project. So ke tsaya gore ga gona ka fa e batsadi ba rona motlakase, go ne go ka re thusa thata. leng gore fa re gana bontlha jwa African Development Bank, go raya gore project e ga e ka ke ya wela. Ka Selo se ke batlang go se bua ka gore kgwedi ke mabaka a gore re tlaa bo re na le tlhaelo ya madi. Ke April e e leng gore re sale re dika re e opela. Tona sone fela se ke neng ke re ke se supe. Rre Kedikilwe o re boleletse gore ka April o tlaa bo lefatshe leno le gokelwa motlakase ka P5000. Nna ke MR MASIMOLOLE (MOGODITSHANE): Ke tsaya gore thulaganyo ya gore fa e le gore P5000 o a a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. pala, thulaganyo e ntse e le teng e e ntseng e dirwa ke Productivity or no productivity, re na le tshwanelo ya ba Botswana Power Corporation (BPC) gore, o duele gore re bue se re batlang go se bua... sepenyana o bo o nna o duela o ketlola ketlola jaana, MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable e tlaa nna e nna teng le fa e le ka P5000. Mo kgaolong Masimolole. You are certainly out of order and that is ya me ya Mogoditshane, ba a itse gore kgwedi e ya provocation. I have made a ruling on that issue and April e re solofetse motlakase wa dikarata. Ka gore o o you do not have even an iota of a right to challenge my tsamayang kwa godimo o one, o bokete. E bile o turu decision. Otherwise I shall apply Standing Order 49 boturu jo bo gakgamatsang. (4) on you straight away. Rona tse re di utlwang, gatwe motho e a re a tsena fa MR MASIMOLOLE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa jarateng a fitlhela go le lekotswana. Boemong jwa gore Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Hei! threatening gone mme a tsene a ye go bala meter, e bo e le gore jaanong o bowa ga e a nna sentle. Gone Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa ka kwa ntle fela. A bo a re nnyaa, fa re tshwanetse ra Palamente, mma ke bue a me. E rile fa go buiwa ka bo re ka ba kitla bo P600, P700. Jaanong fa o itheketse Morupule (B) wa ntlha, go ne go buiwa ka World Bank. wa gago wa karata, o tlaa kgona go bona gore units tsa Bangwe ba rona ba tsere malatsi a le mabedi ba leka go gago di tsamaya fa kae. Ke sone se e leng gore nna ke batla go bua. Mafoko a buiwa a bo a fela. Jaanong go a tsaya gore P5,000 fa o tlhakanya le tsone units tse o tlamega gore re a bue. Le fa re ka a boelela fela ga nna tlaa bong o di ithekela. Go tlaa dira gore Batswana ba gareng. Nna kana ke emetse kgaolo ya me, e bile ga kgone gore motlakase ba seka ba o tswela pelo. Ba o bona o feta fela mo ditseleng. E nne motlakase o e leng

Hansard No 163 Part 4 175 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading gore ba tlaa o dirisa jaaka Tona a ne a bua sentle gore sa P5 million, fa e le sengwe. Ke sone se re se buang ke selo se re sa bolong go se bua, gore motlakase ga e Tona re re, ga go a lekana. Motlakase o re buang ka one sa tlhole e le wa bo semangmang. O tshwanetse gore e gore fa o tsena mo ga rona mo, re o iphetlhela jaaka nne wa mongwe le mongwe yo e leng gore o tshela mo e le gore re batla go go letlelela gore o adime madi. lefatsheng leno. E re fa o fetlhwa jaana, a batho ba seka ba tswa kwa ba re raya ba re ba tlile go re ruta, mme e le bone ba Re ne re itumela re utlwa gotwe go tlaa romelwa ba tlileng go tsaya madi. Ga re eletse go bona madi a bodiredi gore bo ye go ithuta dingwe kwa China. A bontsintsi bo tswa mo lefatsheng la Botswana. Re batla e seka ya re ba ile go ithuta kwa China jalo, ya re ba go duela loans jaaka go kaega. Mme le fa ntswa re reka bowa ba tla ba setswe morago ke maChina. MaChina dilo dingwe tse e leng gore ga re di dire mono, re batla e ya re ba tsena fano e bo e le bone jaanong ba dirang go bona madi a e leng gore ke a a nametsang a sala mo ditiro. Kgang e ya go tsenya itsholelo mo diatleng tsa lefatsheng la Botswana. A phatlaladiwa le itsholelo ya Batswana, ga re kake ya re ka letsatsi lepe ra e boela lefatshe la Botswana. Ke sone se re se buang. kwa morago. Re tlaa nna re e boelela, re e gatelela. We have no quarrels gore dilo dingwe di bo di MR ARONE: Point of elucidation. Thank you Mr rekwa kwa ntle ga Botswana tse e leng gore rona ka Speaker, thank you Honourable Member. Yes, on the bomadimabe ga re kgone gore re di itirele. Ga re nke re issue of citizen economic empowerment, I do agree swe mantswe go bua ka kgang e ya gore, a e re dilo di with you. We are going to continue repeating this issue, tshwana le tse, re di itirela mo lefatsheng la Botswana, because probably there is not much being done. When jaaka re re re tlile go iphetlhela motlakase wa rona, a the Minister responds later on, I want the Honourable e seka ya re ka moso re bo re bona e le batho ba e leng Minister to maybe differentiate between citizen gore ke ba ba setlhanyana e le bone ba ba tswang koo companies and locally registered companies. Locally jaanong ba tlile go tsaya ditiro mo Batswaneng. E bo e registered in this country but owned by foreigners le gore jaanong madi otlhe a tswela kwa ntle ga lefatshe because that is the situation that we see around. Then la Botswana. Ke sone se re se batlang seo. Re eletsa when people answer in this Honourable House on this go bona gore motlakase o o nne teng mo lefatsheng la issue, then they would just take it on a blanket, that Botswana. Batho ba e leng gore ke Batswana ba nne no, these are Batswana registered companies. When in teng. Ba nne le seabe mo phetlhong ya motlakase o, actual fact they are locally registered but not owned by mme Batswana ba direlwe ditiro. the citizens themselves. E re fa o phatlalatsa motlakase jaana, mme Tona ya Thank you very much. Meepo le Kgotetso, re go emetse.Mma ke palame fela MR MASIMOLOLE: Ke a leboga mokaulengwe, ka wena ka Tona ya Madi, ka gore tota ke wena mong ke lebogela tlaleletso eo. E rile mo Palamenteng e e wa leso kana golo fa.Jaanong re tshwanetse re fete ka fetileng, ke kile ka tla fano ka tshutiso e e neng e bua wena. Re go bolelele gore rona kwa Mogoditshane re ka citizen economic empowerment. Ka kopiwa ke Tona emetse motlakase wa karata. E re ntswa re lebogela wa wa maabane wa tsa madi gore ke boele ka morago kopo P5, 000 gore o a goroga, batho ba na le go ikgasolola kana tshutiso eo. Ka gore go na le sengwe se se dirwang. fela. Go ikgasolaka o sa itse gore gatwe ba re mathata a Ka dira jalo. Ga ke ise ke kgotsofale Motsamaisa bone ke eng. Fa, re bua ka matshelo a batho, ba e leng Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, gore sengwe se a dirwa se gore ba re rometse fano fa. Ga re batle gore ka moso ba se lekanetseng. Jaaka Mokaulengwe Arone a ne a bua re kgwe mathe ba re le ne le le kwa, le ile go kopahala. gore go na le dikompone tse e leng gore di kwadisitswe Ka mafoko a a kalo Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa mono, go pharologanyo fa gare ga kompone eo le e Palamente, ke ema nokeng gore metlaleletsa e Tona a e leng ya beng gae. Ke ne ke utlwa kgantele Tona a reng o batla go tlaleletsa kopo ya gagwe ya kadimo ya araba, a bolela gore sekole sa Mogoditshane Senior go madi, a e neelwe. Ke a leboga. neetswe a local contractor gore a tsenye motlakase mo go sone, jang jang ka P20 million kana P40 million. O MR KWELAGOBE (MOLEPOLOLE SOUTH): ya go fitlhela e le gore project ya P400 million, P40 Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. million tota fela go bua nnete is a drop in the ocean. Rraetsho, ke tsaya gore tota ga go na yo o ka ganetsang kana a ganana le kopo e Tona wa Madi a e kopang. Gore Tsaya tsela e e tsamayang e tswa gone fa Molapo e re mo letle a ye go saenela madi a. A tle go katolosa ya Metsimotlhabe, ke P412 million. Le fa o ka ya go phetlho ya motlakase kwa Morupule. Gone re a itse tsamaya mo go yone, o ya go fitlhela gongwe, fa e le Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, gore le ngogola gore go na le sengwe se e leng gore ke sa beng gae, ke Tona ya tsa Meepo, Kgotetso le Matamo, o ne a tla a re

176 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading begela gore o leka gore go nne le very extensive rural gore e seng jalo la bofelo fela re tlaa nna re supiwa electrification programme mo lefatsheng lotlhe la rona. ka monwana, gotwe e kana ke Palamente ya rubber Re a bona gore le fa mafoko a tla ka Tona ya tsa Madi, stamps. Ba tla fela ba tempa ba bo ba saena. Ba sa itse tota pitsa ya kgang ke ene Tona wa tsa Meepo. Mme ga le kwa selo se tlholegileng teng. re kake ra gana selo se e leng gore gatwe se ya go thusa gore a anamise kana a thakgise motlakase le lefatshe Jaanong ke dumalana le Honourable Modubule gore a leno lotlhe la rona. Mapalamente le one, a nne a tsenelela merero. A merero e re e tsenelela le fa re sena portfolio committees. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, re a itse gore A re e tsenelela ka dikomiti tsone tse re nang natso. motlakase wa rona o a tura. Re solofela gore goromente Whether there are sessional or whatever, mme fela, a o tlaa bo a ntse a akanya gore o ka dira diphokoletso go nne le morero. O Palamente le yone e ka ikutlwang jang. Sengwe sa dilo tse di turisang motlakase mo ga e le motlotlo gore, nnyaa mme mo kgannyeng e, rotlhe rona, ke dikgala tse di tsamaiwang go kopakopanya re ne re e tseneletse ka maatlametlo. Re a tlhaloganya metse ya rona. Ka gore metse ya rona ka bo yone e gore ke eng fa go tsewa tsela e. Ka gore priorities re na phatlaletse. Fa gongwe motse o tlaa bo o le some 100 le dilo tse dingwe tse dintsi tse e leng gore golo gongwe kilometers away, mme o ya go tsenngwa motlakase re ka bo re a tle re re nnyaa, mme e seng mo, e leng gongwe o tswa mo Molepolole kana Letlhakeng, mo. Fa ke ka baya sekai ka tetla ya gago Motsamaisa kana o tswa fa kae fela fa o tlaa bong o tswa teng. Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, kwa Molepolole re tshwere Golo moo go raya costs. So, moo re a go tlhaloganya bothata.Re faraferwe ke metsi a a leswe, a re sa itseng gore go teng. Mme fela gore goromente le ene a bo gore a le ene 2016 re ya go goroga kwa go ene. Ka a tlhaloganya gore motlakase ga e sa tlhole e le wa ntata ya gore ga go na sewage system e e leng teng mo bo makgorwane ba le nosi, o tshwanetse mongwe le motseng o motonatona o o kana ka Kanye kana Kasane. mongwe. Rona Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente Dilo tse Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, go ba re leng dikoa, ba e a reng o neelwa molemo o bo botlhokwa gore re ne re nna re di aramela mmogo gore o tewa gotwe o o beye fa go tsididi. Mosadimogolo le rona re ne re sedimosetsa ba ga rona fa re ka ba kana monnamogolo a le kwa Kaudwane kana a le kwa sedimosetsang teng. Go utlwisa botlhoko. Ga ke itse kae a tewa gotwe molemo o o tshwanetse gore e re o gore ka pele o ne o tle o nne o etele kwa Molepolole, ikenta ka one, o bo o tswa fa go leng tsididi. Jaanong gompieno ke eng o se ke o etela teng. O ne o tlaa fa o sena fa o ka o bayang teng fa go tsididi, e bo e le bona dikgakgamatso tsa metsi a a tswang kwa go gore molemo oo o latlhegelwa ke boleng. Ke sone se gakgamatsang. Batho ba tsatsapua mo go one fela. Re ke reng ga o sa tlhole e le wa bo makgorwane, ka gore ne re eletsa gore goromente o ka tsibogela selo se gore bo makgorwane ba ne ba tsenya ice creams, dinama seemo se se femiwe se ise se re tsenye malwetse. le eng in fridges tsa bone.Gompieno go itebaganngwa le tsa matshelo, e bong melemo jalo. So, re a leboga Kgang e nngwe e ke neng ke batla go feta ka yone gone fa, gore goromente o leka to capacitate Morupule, gore e ke e bakaulengwe ba ntseng ba bua ka yone ya to empower tle e kgone go thakgisa motlakase le lefatshe leno. Go Batswana. Re tlaa bua re bo re tswa bommampubane. Ga diragadiwa tsholofetso yone e Tona a kileng a tla fa ka re ke re boe ka morago. Le fa e bile Tona yo ke mo ratang, yone. Pele o tlile ka 100 villages, a tloga a tla ka 30 yo e neng e le class mate ya me a ka bua thata a nna a re villages, ga ke itse gore gompieno villages tseo di kae. ‘P40 million, P50 million, P9 million, P11 million’. Nnyaa Gongwe di tsamaya kwa go bo 66 jalojalo. Re eletsa Tona, ga ke ka ke ka re ga o leke. Ka re go go nnyennye, gore go nne go thakgisediwe pele fela kwa Batswana ga go a lekana Tona. Rona re itse gore kwa mafatsheng ba leng teng, gore ba tle ba akole ditlhabololo tse. a mangwe, citizen companies are empowered. They are not only empowered ka madi. They are empowered even Fela jaaka Honourable Modubule a ne a bua, bagaetsho, with skills. Go rulagantswe ka matsetseleko a gore skills ke dumela gore nako e tlile ya gore Palamente e nne e tse ba di tseye mo go bao ba e leng gore ba tlaa bo ba na tsenngwa mo dikgannyeng tse. Priorities fa di ya go le projects mo ga rona mo. dirwa, re a itse gore ke prerogative ya ga goromente go dira priorities. Fa e le gore goromente o itse gore MR G. SALESHANDO: Point of clarification Mr those priorities tse a di dirang, re tshwanetse gore la Speaker. Motlotlegi, capacity e, e sale e tswa mo bofelo re tle go di dumela fa. Ke tsaya gore go ka nna tseleng bogologolo fa o tsena mo Palamenteng ka molemo gore le rona e nne e re golo gongwe kwa thoko 1969. Ke dilo tse o ka bong o di buile o le Tona e bile o re tseelwa koo re ya go ngunanguna. Go nna le morero setse o di dirile. Jaanong gore o ipoke gore o tlaa di bua wa gore re itse gore nnyaa, priorities tse re a di fetola o bo o tswa dipeba, kana wa reng, ga go thuse sepe. It kana re nna re di amogela jaaka di tlaa bo di ntse. Ka is too late. Nna fa fatshe o lele. Ke go palelwa ga party ya gago, le wena o le mo teng.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 177 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading MR SPEAKER: Honourable Kwelagobe, I have just ditlhabololo le go direla batho ditlamelo, a e na le left you to talk despite the fact that you are definitely out tshimologo le bokhutlo, ka ke utlwa ba BCP okare ba of the line. I do not want to say irrelevant because of age re e na le tshimologo le bokhutlo? before beauty. I pray that you come back to the track. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Bagaetsho, kana go MR KWELAGOBE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa na le motions tsa lona batlotlegi mapalamente tse di Palamente, re bua ka madi a re reng a tsene mo diatleng tshwanetseng tsa tsena pele ga Palamente e phatlalala. tsa bana ba lefatshe le. Ke madi a a yang go adimiwa ke Gore di bone sebaka, ke fa tiro e re nang nayo e ka suta. goromente wa rona. Re eletsa gore jaaka goromente wa Ka fa ke bonang le ikaelela go dira ka teng batsadi, rona a tswa go a adima, a kgone go tsena mo diatleng ga ke bone fa motions di ka tsena. Go raya gore di tsa bana ba rona. Jaanong ga ke itse gore irrelevance, tlaa tsena fela ka Labotlhano. Ke ne ke re ke le kope fa e le gore lefoko leo ke le utlwa sentle, e ka bo e tsena bagaetsho gore a e re re bua, re itse gore e tiro ga se fa kae Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. yone fela. Ditiro di santse di le dintsi tse Palamente eno e tshwanetseng ya di fetsa pele ga Labotlhano. Mma e re ke ise ke tswelele le mafoko a me, ke arabe mogolole Honourable Saleshando, yo a reng ga a itse MR KWELAGOBE: Honourable Speaker, o a itse gore ke ne ke ntse ke le kae. Honourable Member, ke gore ga re ka ke ra go ganetsa kana ra kgala. E rile o ne ke ntse ke le teng. E rile kwa tshimologong ga bo santse o le motho, o a itse gore re ne re lwa mmogo go le lefoko. Ke ne ke le teng kwa go yone tshimologo re sheleketlela gore mapalamente a bue. Nako eo yone eo jaaka o bua. Jaanong, Honourable Member le botlhoko o ne o bo utlwa. ene o ne a le teng a foroma ditena kwa Selebi-Phikwe. Mme o di tlogetse. Ga re mo sekisetse gore ke eng o Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, gatwe batho ba tlogetse ditena tse o neng o ntse o di foroma kwa. E bangwe ba ba mo mafatsheng a mangwe, fa go buiwa bile ga re mo sekisetse gore ga di a kgona go lekana go ka budget ya Botswana. Ba simolola ba e ikabela ba aga matlo a Selebi-Phikwe. Jaanong rona fa, ga se gore le koo. Gore nnyaa, mme nna ke tlaa go ngatha go le fa ke ne ke le mo Cabinet, mme dilo di buiwa kana di kana. Yole le ene a re le nna ke tlaa go ngatha go le dirwa, gongwe di sa dirwe go fitlha fa gongwe ke neng kana. Ke sone se e reng fa re dira budget fa, e re fela ke ka bo ke eletsa teng. Ga ke setsenwa. Ga ke ka ke fa gotwe tenders, e bo e le gore go tla go tshologa fela ka tla mo Palamenteng e ka tla go nyanyabolola gore okare lerole la Maun kana la goo Tawana. It is because ke ne ke dumalana go le kana kang kana ke ne ke sa batho ba a ne ba sale ba ipaakenyetsa budget ya rona ba dumalane go le kana kang le dilo tse di neng di buega le koo. Rona fa re sa bone sepe. Ga ke re ga go lekwe, kwa go goromente. Le mo Setswaneng re na le puo jaaka ke ntse ke bolelela Tona gore ke a leboga, go a e e reng Khuduthamaga. Fa go duwa mo phuthegong lekwa, projects di teng. Mme ra re a go ja ga Batswana ya Khuduthamaga, ga o tswe o bo o tabogela kwa go oketsege. A skills transfer ya Batswana, e oketsege. godimo ga seolo o ya go opela gore ‘mme nna mo E re ka moso e bo e le gore go itebile rona fela mo ga Khuduthamageng ele ke ne ka bua jaana’. Moo ga go rona mo. Bana ba rona ke bone ba ba dirang... dirwe. Le gale, gongwe kwa Botswana Congress Party MR NSHIMWE: Point of elucidation. Ke a go leboga (BCP), ke ka fa ba tsamaisang ka teng. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mma ke Ga ke ke ke kgorelediwe ke sepe go bua se ke dumalane le se Motlotlegi a se buang. Maabane fa ke tshwanetseng go se bua, ka gore gongwe ke gokeletswe bua mafoko one a Motlotlegi a a buang, Tona o ne a sepekepeke sa gore ke kile ka bo ke le mo Cabinet. Fa re ga go na Batswana ba ba nang le dikitso tsa go nna go na le ba ba jealous gore ke ne ke le mo Cabinet, jalo. Fa re ba tshotse kwa BCP re ba mo neele o tlaa ba ba siame. Ke e ntse over 30 years. Ga se sephiri. Le dirisa. Ga ke itse gore a ke yone kgang e le wena o e Honourable Member yo o kileng a tla go kanya mokatse buang kana o bua skills transfer differently from what fa, a bo a boa a tsamaya, o tlile go o kanya gape. Re the Minister thinks it is not. utlwa ka dipampiri gore o a bo a bile a laela gape. Re MR KWELAGOBE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa tlaa nna re tswelela fela rra re nna re kotlopisetsa fa re Palamente, Tona e go buiwang ka yone ke nnake. We kotlopisetsang teng. were in the same class kwa Moeding.

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL HONOURABLE MEMBER: Honourable P. H. K. GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): Point of Kedikilwe. clarification. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke re ke botse Motlotlegi Mopalamente MR KWELAGOBE: Ee, o re P. H. K., nna kana ke bua gore, ka e bile ene a na le lebaka fa. Kgang e ya ka Bill e e seng ya ga P. H. K., e e leng ya ga Minister

178 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading of Finance and Development Planning. Jaanong fa o mo dikadimong, gongwe merokotso ga se e e leng gore nthaya o re maabane Tona o ne a bua jalo, P. H. K. ene e supa fa re le ba na le seabe e bile re le barotloetsi. Fa o ne a raga bolo kwa Kgale le Lobatse. re le mo lekgotleng le le lengwe, re a tle re re go na le a member in good standing. Ga ke itse gore a golo moo ba Jaanong, fa e le gore P. H. K. o letse a buile sengwe a go lemoga. E bile ke sengwe se se re tswelang mosola maabane ke seyo fa, ke dumalana le sone. fa go tla mo go reng re bo re ka adima madi.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Laughter! Laughter! Ke itse ka lebaka le le leleele gore re ne re ntse re kopiwa MR KWELAGOBE: Ke itse gore ga a ka ke a bua ke dibanka di tshwana tsone tsa bo African Development sepe se se duleng mo tseleng. Fela se ke se buang fa Bank, gore re nne re ntse re leka go adima madi. Mme gompieno ke gore, mo go fetelang kwa baneng ba rona, ka gore itsholelo ya rona e ne e santse e le mo seemong ke mafofora a bana ba Israel.A re lese gore e re re le se se siameng, le go lebelela dilo pele, re ne re itse fela beng ba pitsana, re bo re e ja mafofora a bana ba Israel. sentle gore re ntse re sa batle thata go adima madi mo Tota se re lekang go se bua ke gore, a puso e lelekele African Development Bank. Re lebile yone merokotso kwa go boneng gore, a madi re a adima kae kana kae, a e e leng gore gongwenyana re ne re bona e sa re kgatlhe tsene mo diatleng tsa Batswana. Selo se re tshwanetseng go le kalokalo. Gompieno o tla ka loan ya African ra se lemoga, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke Development Bank, e re e lebogelang. Fela ba tshwanetse gore madi a ditlhabololo ga re ka ke ra a bitsa gore ke ba itse ba bo ba bone gore go na le banalediabe ba e leng foreign investment. Ke madi a rona. That is why o bona gore they are in good standing. Ba e leng gore le bone re bua re tlhatlositse lentswe ka gore ke madi a rona. Fa tota ba tshwanetse gore fa go sekasekwa merokotso, e ne e le investors ba tswa koo, ba tla go tsenya madi dilo tse di nne di sekasekwa. Re santse re le lefatshe fela a bone fa, that is a different story, but a, ke a rona. Re le le tlhabologang, le le nang le mathata le dikgwetlho tlile go a duela. Ke sone se re se batlang. A batho ba lese jaaka lefatshe lengwe le lengwe le le tlhabologang. Re go nna ba ipokela madi a rona ba le kwa ba a aba. Ba a ka tswa re nnile lesego mo nakong e e rileng ka tiriso e a ja dirwe ba santse ba le koo. Ba bo ba tla go tsena fa e siameng, le ka go nna le meamuso e Modimo o neng rona re sala re nna re bopamelwa ke bana, Motsamaisa wa re tlhonolofatsa ka yone. Fela seo ga se a tshwanela Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. gore se bo se ka re baya ka kwa mosing. Ke dilo dingwe tse re tshwanetseng gore re di tlhomamise. Re bo re nne Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ka one mafoko re lele, re se ka ra itshupa gore gongwe rona re ba ba a a kana, ke ne ke re ke eme fa mme ke tsaya gore kgonang fa re le ka kwa, ka gore re na le dinonofo le bakaulengwe ba me ba nkutlwilwe. Honourable dithata tsa itsholelo e e rileng. A re nne re supa fela gore Saleshando le ene o nkutlwile. O senya fela ka go ne re santse re le lefatshe fela le le tlhabologang mo Africa. a tla go kanya mokatse, e bo e re ka nakonyana a bo a Le le lebanweng ke dikgwetlho fela jaaka lefatshe tsamaya. A bo a boa a tla go kanya mokatse. Re a bo re lengwe le lengwe. Jaanong ke re, merokotso ya rona a utlwa gotwe a re e tlaa re ka nakonyana a bo a nyeletse. re nne re ntse re kopa jalo re lebile seemo seo. Ga ke re Mme le gale a a tsamaye sentle mokaulengwe golo a ga le a dira go le gontsi, kana morokotso ga o a siama. go ileng a ele ruri. Thank you Sir. Mme fela ke ne ke batla go supa jalo.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...Laughter.... Ke santse ke boelela kgang ya go bona gore Environmental Impact Assessment a e nne teng, e MR TSOGWANE (BOTETI NORTH): Mr Speaker, lebelelwe thata go tsenelelwe mo go yone, e nne ga ke na go bua ka boleele. Dintlha dingwe di ne di dingwe tsa dilo tse e leng gore di tlaa supa le gore saletse kwa morago mo go tse bakaulengwe ba ntseng tsone ditlhabololo tse re di batlang tse, e tlaa re mo ba di bua. Re a go letlelela Tona gore o fiwe madi ao. nakong e e tlang, e bo e le gore di ama batho ba rona Ga ke na go boelela tse dingwe tsa thulaganyo kana tsa ka tsela e e ntseng jang. tsamaiso e ya ditherisanyo, e e botlhokwa fela thata. Mme ke ka fa dilo di tshwanetseng go nna ka teng. Ke emeleletse kgang e le nngwefela Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Kgang e e ntseng Mma ke bue ka African Development Bank. Fa e ne e le bakaulengwe gongwe ba e bua. Ke kile ka e bua ka gore madi a a ne a adimilwe kwa bankeng nngwe e seng botsa dipotso ka yone. Kgang e e gogela gore ka moso ya African Development Bank, gongwe ke ka bo ke sa re bo re supa ka monwana gore go na le kgethololo e bue. Jaanong ke buisiwa jaana ke gore banka e ya rona, ya e leng gore batho ba lefatshe le ba a e dira. Ke bua ka ditlhabololo ya mafatshe a Africa. Tona re lela jaana ga kgang ya dikarata. Fa go tla selo se tshwana motlakase ke itse gore a selo se le se etse tlhoko gore se a diragala. wa dikarata, se se nang le benefits tse di kanakana, tse Maloko a banka yone e ya African Development Bank, e leng gore bangwe ba ka di akola, ka gore motlakase

Hansard No 163 Part 4 179 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading o o ka o itaolela. Fa o go feletse ga o na mathata a Ke buile ka farmers, production areas.Re rotloetsa temo go tlhola o sa robala gore o tlaa kgaolelwa connection thuo. Bagaetsho go ka rotloetsa batho botlhe ka bontsi jang, jang, a selo se Tona re se emele ka dinao. Mo gore ba tsene mo temothuong fa motlakase o ka goroga nakong e e fetileng, re ne re tewa gotwe go santse go teng kwa. Go ka fokotsa costs di menagane. E bile we sekasekwa go bonwa gotwe madi a ka bonwa. Ke ne can double production yone e ya rona e go menagane. ke gopola gore loan e, e ka bo e tsenyeditswe le madi Jaanong fa re bua jaana, gatwe nnyaa, re bua jaana one a go nna jalo. Fa e le gore ga re bone gore ga re batho ga ba a lekanwa ke motlakase. Nnyaa ga re a re discriminate batho ba e leng gore gompieno jaana ba motlakase o se ka wa isiwa kwa bathong. Rona ra re a go batla gore le bone ba dirise motlakase wa dikarata jaaka tsewe ditsela dingwe, batho ba le bone ba akarediwe mo Motswana mongwe le mongwe a dirisa motlakase lenaneong la gore go nne le motlakase to the production wa dikarata. Re na le kgaolo ya batho ba Mopipi, e e areas. Ga re kake ra ya go nna le production areas di leng gore dikgaolo tsotlhe le metse e yotlhe e ntse e sena motlakase. Re a tsamaya mo bo South Africa mo, tsenngwa motlakase, bo 100 villages le bo 70 villages, o fitlhela dikgokgotshwane fela tse e leng gore farm fa ba fitlhela Mopipi a ntse a na le motlakase. Batho ba gongwe e nngwefela foo, mme e na le motlakase o e a lela, ba re ‘bagaetsho, re batla gore le rona re ko re leng gore nnyaa ga se mo go tshwenyang. That is why direlwe thulaganyo ya motlakase wa dikarata.’ Seemo they are producing, because ba neelwa utilities tse e leng se bagaetsho se re baya ka kwa mosing. Re tlaa bua gore di a rotloetsa. Ke raya gore motlakase gompieno fela gore ke discrimination jaanong. Ga e sa tlhole e le mo agriculture is a factor. Ga se mo e leng gore gongwe gore nnyaa batho ba bangwe re santse re tlaa kgona. Ke re ka bua gore ga se sepe se se ka thusang. go kgetholola batho ba bangwe. MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND Fa motho a bapile le yo mongwe ene a akola se e leng WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Ke gore ke benefits and advantages tsotlhe tse di tlang ka kopa tlhaloso Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. motlakase wa karata, yo mongwe ene e bo e le gore Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente le nnyaa o ka kwa mosing fela. Le fa a lela o kare ga go mokaulengwe. Tota ke rile maloba fa ke rola kgang gone bonale gore o a lela. Kgang e ya motlakase wa dikarata mo Palamenteng mo, ka bua ka keletso ya gore motlakase Tona, re tswa kgakala ka yone, re e buile thata, re swa kgabagare o ye kwa masimo le kwa morakeng, tse ke di mantswe e bile re tlaa bo re tswe mo Palamenteng ka bitsang production areas, I said so. Se ke neng ke se bua fa ke bonang ka teng re ntse re bua ka motlakase wa ke gore, one o a tlhaela. Motlakase o gompieno o leng dikarata. A kgang e e tsewe tsia. Batswana ba se ka mo go rona mo Morupule, re bua ka 90 megawatts. Ka ba kgethololwa ga nna le molelwane fa gare ga bone. gore unit e nngwe e re ka bong re dira 120 megawatts e A Batswana botlhe fa go na le sengwe, technology bokoa. Jaanong fa re na le 90 megawatts o re o itirelang nngwe, ba e akole ka go lekalekana. Ke yone kgang e ka bo rona, mme e le gore rona on average re batla 500 ke batlang gore gongwe ke e supe. megawatts, e le gore go a tlhaela gone gompieno jaana, ga re kake ra kgona go o isa kwa merakeng, masimo le Ke bua ka madirelo; a ntse ka kwa mosing ka lebaka le kwa dipolaseng. Ke gone mo gompieno re batlang go letelele bagaetsho... fetlha 600 megawatts yone yo re mmatlelang dikadimo. MR KHWAE: Ke kopa tlhaloso Motsamaisa Kgang tota go ne go sa tshwanela gore go nne le Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke a leboga Honourable ketsaetsego kana tlhokakutlwisisanyo fa gare ga rona. Ra Member. Ke ntse ke utlwa Honourable Member a re fa re sena go nna re o dira, e bile o mongwe re batla go boelela lefoko la kgethololo gantsintsi. Ke sa itse gore o goga wa letsatsi, bio gases le tse dingwe tse ke ntseng o raya kgethololo ya letso le mmala kgotsa o raya ke bua ka tsone. Motlakase re solofela gore kgabagare o kgethololo e e ntseng jang. Ke gore go tlhatswege gore tlaa goroga koo. Fela mme mo bogompienong jaana, se o raya kgethololo ya eng tota. re nang naso ke 90 megawatts. Ke a leboga.

MR TSOGWANE: Ke bua ka kgethololo ya gore MR SPEAKER: Bagaetsho, ke a le kopa a re bueng bangwe ba dirisa motlakase wa dikarata, mme bangwe tlhe, we have got to go into committee stage. ba sale ba lela bone ga ba dirise motlakase wa dikarata. MR TSOGWANE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Ga ke itse gore ke ya letso le mmala kana ke ya eng Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke a wetsa, ke utlwa mafoko fela. Kana ke ya kgaolo ka gore ke bua ka lefelo la a gago Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mopipi. Tona o tlaa tlhalosa gore ke kgethololo ya eng fa e ntse jalo. Mma ke supe gore pharologano ya rona e tswa fa Jaanong ke bua fela gore batho ba a lela ka motlakase kae. Fa Tona a rialo, kana gompieno jaana, re na le wa dikarata. projections tsa rona. Mo motlakaseng, di bua gore re

180 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading batla go fetlha motlakase mo e leng gore re tlaa bo e ngwedi ga se moleta lefifi. Jaanong fa e le gompieno bile re kgona to export to other countries. So, ga e kake moleta ngwedi ke moleta lefifi, nnyaa ga re kake ra bua ya re re kgona go fetlha motlakase re re re tlaa export, language e nngwefela. Ke a leboga ka mafoko a a kalo. re bo re re batho ba e leng gore production areas tsa Le fa ke ne ke tshwanetse go bua go le gontsi. rona re tlaa bo re sa kgone to connect. Fa e le gore the intention ke gore re tlaa nna le motlakase that can be MR KHWAE (KGALAGADI NORTH): Ke a leboga, exported, nna ka re, let us not export. A o isiwe to the Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke re Rraetsho production areas. Batswana ba tlaa dira madi, ditiro, ba le nna ke ntshe la mmotlana ka go ema Tona nokeng mo tlaa nna kwa masimong le kwa merakeng. Gompieno kadimong ya madi, a go katolosa kepo ya rona ya magala jaana o reka engine ya sediba over P100,000.00 mo mo lefatsheng leno. Sengwe se ke tshwanetseng go supa e leng gore o ne o ka connect motlakase fela mo tshwenyego ya sone Rraetsho, ke seemo sa ka fa ke bonang sedibeng seo. E bo e le gore o duela goromente madi a motlakase o phatlaladiwa ka teng. Mo dikgaolong tse ke a tlaa bong a a batla for that motlakase. Jaanong fa e le lemogileng gore di dintsi, re gogetse dipale mo go tsone, gore o ya go reka engine ya sediba P100,000.00 o bo mme ga re kgone go dirisa motlakase wa teng. Metse e o tsenya the very expensive equipment mo Sedibeng, mengwe e fetiwa ke dipale kwa godimo. Fa re tsayang go bo gotwe motlakase re ka o fetlha ra bo ra export. gore nkabo motlakase o dirisiwa mo motseng oo, o tlaa Nnyaa, ga ke dumalane le kgang e e ntseng jalo. bo o fitlhela o feta fela. Gongwe

MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND o tlhamalela fela mo project e e dirwang mo motseng WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): oo. Jaanong seemo seo fa re ka nna le sone, le fa re On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Ke a leboga ka godisa motlakase wa rona mo lefatsheng, gore Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Nna tota ga ke motlakase o lebagane le project e le nngwe fela mo itse gore go tlhoka kutlwisisanyo ga rona go tswa fa motseng, re tlaa bo gape re sa o dirise sentle. kae. Ga re ise re ko re re re tlaa fetlha motlakase re bo Le dipoelo mo go one gore re tle re kgone go duela re o isa kwa go ba bangwe rona ka kwano o santse o loans tse re di tsayang tse, gongwe ga re ka ke ra atlega. tlhaela. Ke sone se e rileng ka 2007, ra fetola molao wa Fa re tsaya metse e e tshwanang le ya bo Phuduhudu, Botswana Power Corporation gore go nne le ba ba tlaa motlakase o na le bo ten years o feta teng. O na le bong ba fetlha motlakase kwa ntle ga BPC; bo coal bed bo five years o ya kwa didibeng tse di pompang mo methane gas, bone bo bio gas. Gompieno re solofetse motseng wa Phuduhudu, mme o sa gokelwa motlakase. gore kwa Mmamabula, fa sengwe le sengwe se ka Go bo go ya go gokelwa ntlo e le nngwe mo motseng tsamaya sentle, go tlaa nna le o mongwe gape o o tlaa ya drought ka motlakase wa teng. Jaanong fa gongwe bong o fetlhwa ke ba ba ikemetseng ka nosi. Ke gore re tsenya ditshenyegelo tse dintsi, mme re sena fa re sena go nna re kopanya bone bo solar power le tse maikaelelo a go ya go dira dipoelo koo. dingwe, fa sengwe le sengwe se ka tsamaya sentle, re bo re o phatlalatsa mono ga rona. Ga re kake ra kganela Motse wa Lokgwabe o ne wa nna bo eight years, bale to export. Ka gore go tlaa tla nako e o tlaa bong e motlakase o gogetswe teng, mme o sa dirisiwe o le mo le gore go simolola ka bo 2013/2014, re tlaa bo re na dipaleng fela. Jaanong, ke ipotsa gore a maikaelelo e le surplus fa sengwe le sengwe se ka tsamaya sentle. ne e se gape go dira madi, e ne e le gore re nne re bona Bo Morupule B2, ke gore another 600 megawatts, ke dipale re bo re re, mme dipale di supa motlakase. Ke yone nako e e leng gore re tshwanetse re bo re lekile go seemo se ke eletsang gore, puso e simolole go leba ka o phatlalatsa. Ba ba tlaa bong ba o fetlhile o o fetang o leitlho le lengwe ka tsamaiso ya motlakase. gongwe re o tlhokang mono, ga re kake ra ba kganela Fa o ya kwa motseng wa Hunhukwe, motlakase o na le to export. Ke gore kgang ga se gore ra re go tlaa export six months koo. Batho ba ntse ba leka to apply gotwe motlakase le mororo re tlaa bo re santse re tlhaelelwa nnyaa, re santse re baakanya tse. Six months o fetile, mo go kalokalo. Ga se yone kgang eo. motlakase ga o tsene le fa e le thebe mo go goromente. MR TSOGWANE: Ke a leboga Tona. Kopo ya me ya Jaanong o a ipotsa gore, naare mme maikaelelo a go bofelo ke ya gore, let it be a policy frame work. Ga go gogela dipale tse e ne e le eng? na epe policy frame work e e supang gore go tlaa isiwa Fa o tsena kwa motseng wa Kokotsha, dipale di na le motlakase kwa dipolaseng le kwa production areas. six months go gogetswe motlakase koo, ga go na le fa Let it be in the policy frame work. Let it be announced. e le mongwe... E nne dingwe tsa dilo tse e leng gore is in the policy frame work. Jaanong ke gone re tlaa bong re bua puo MR MOREMI: Clarification. Tanki, Mr Speaker. Ke e nngwefela re itse gore mme go raya gore moleta ne ke re gongwe re tlhaloganyane, ka gore o ka re re a

Hansard No 163 Part 4 181 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading latlhana. Go tlholwa gotwe metsi a a suma kwa tlase on gokela, ba letlelelwa. Ba seka ba boa ba nna another the pipes. Jaanong re itse jang gore dipale di raya gore six months motlakase o setse o le mo kgaolong. Mme motlakase o teng, ka gore one ga o sume? Honourable batho ba kgaolo eo ba sa kgone go o akola. Seemo se Khwae a re motlakase o le teng ka a bona dipale tsa se itaya tsebe, ka gore tota ga gona ope yo o sa eletseng one, mme kana gongwe o santse o fetlhiwa pele kwa go nna le motlakase. Fa le bona dikole tsa kgaolo ya Morupule. Go direlwa gore e re mo nakong e o tlang, Kgalagadi di palelwa jaana, ke gore rona ka six re a dipale di bo di setse di le teng. tswala. Kana ke settlements. Ga go na paraffin kwa ba di rekang teng, dikerese, fa di fedile mo motseng, ga MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND WATER go na kwa o ka di bonang teng. Jaanong fa motlakase RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Ke a leboga, tota o ne o le teng, ba ba neng ba ka ithusa ka motlakase, ga ke batle go tsena Bakaulengwe ganong. Fela jaaka ba ne ba ka tswelela. Gape distribution ya motlakase, maloba, re ne re le kwa go bo Khwae le kwa metseng e ke gore fa ba ipoleletse gore ba o isa kwa Hunhukwe, mengwe, bo Middlepits, motlakase o foo. Jaanong BPC le fa e ka re o le mo tseleng wa feta motse mongwe, ga se yone jaanong e gogelang motlakase kwa matlong nnyaa, o tlhamalalela kwa Hunhukwe fela. Jaanong ke kana kwa dijarateng tsa batho. Jaanong fa gotwe ke eng o tsamaiso e ke eletsang gore a re nne le tebelopele e e sa gokelwe mo metseng? Go letilwe gore batho ba kope farologanang le ka fa re ntseng re dira ka teng. Mme... ba bo ba tsenya mo dijarateng tsa bone. Potso ke gore, a mme jaanong re simolole gore, re lebe pele gore a batho MR SPEAKER: Honourable Member, you can keep gone kwa motseng oo, ba koleke pele re bone gore ba standing. I am just going to plead with your good self, ntshitse madi, ke gone re bo re gogela motlakase koo? like I pleaded with the rest of your colleagues that Kana kgang e gone foo. Rona re ne re rile ka motlakase o spoke before you. That may we please be as relevant as isiwa koo, ba ba kgonang ba tlaa nna ba isa koo. Fa e le possible. I have the powers to invoke Standing Order gore go buiwa ka standard cost sa P5,000; ee, re santse 46(1) but because of you being you, I would not dare re baakanya. Ga go na madi a re nang nao gompieno. do that. I will just pray, please come to the track. Re santse re kokotleletsa mo letloleng la fund ya teng. Gongwe re ka bona bo P12 million or so, ka kgetsanyana MR KHWAE: Nnyaa, mme ke a leboga, Honourable fela re santse re kokoanyetsa gore, re tle re kgone go Speaker. Se ke se emelang fela ke go ema nokeng ke gokela ka bo P5,000. bo ke re a e re jaaka bagaetsho ba ne ba bua ba re, a re nne le tshekatsheko. Ke ne ka itumela ka ke ne MR KHWAE: Ke a leboga, Mr Speaker, ga ke ise ke bona dikompone tse di neng di katolosa motlakase ke tsene mo ditlhalosong tse di neng di supiwa fa. mo lefatsheng la Botswana, bontsi jwa tsone e ne e le Honourable Member o ne a re, a ke a itse gore dipale dikompone which have been subcontracted, mme e le tse di na le motlakase ka ga se metsi, gongwe o ka dikompone tse di remeletseng mo Botswana. bo o santse o hetlhiwe o tla mo tseleng. Ke latlhegile; a re o tla mo tseleng. Nna ke tsaya gore fa o neelwa A seemo se sa citizen empowerment se tsewe tsia. Re motlakase, o a bo o le mo laeneng e e setseng e gogilwe seka ra se tsaya e le puo fela, bogolo jang ba phathi e le koo. Se ke se buang, ke ne ke sa bue ka tsamaiso ya BDP. O ka re bone ba se buela ka go ikgatlha kana tsa dikgaolo tsa Kgalagadi South. go itumedisa batho fela. MaChina a Rre Kwelagobe a buang ka one, maloba ke mmone mo television a na le Kwa Kokotsha nna ke eteletse batho ba koo, ke raya bone, yone communist party. Fa a sena go e bitsa kwa, BPC ke re, re gokelele, re neele bill, re batla go tsenya a re ba fiwa part of the budget ba le go sele. Gongwe motlakase, up to now from December. Batho ba o raya a na le bone. Ke setse ke tshwenyega ka gore, e Hunhukwe ba ile kwa ofising ya me ya bopalamente, ka bile ke ne ke sa itse gore budget bangwe ba ka nna le ya kwa BPC, up to now. Ba a ne ba re, re tlaa simolola some cuts mo go yone, e ise e bo e tsene fa. Jaanong go le neela quotations. Ba sa emela P5,000 ebile ba re ka ke mmone mo television a na le bone, ke setse ke nnyaa, P5,000 o tlaa re fitlhela mo tseleng. Ka gongwe belaela gore o itse se a se buang. O itse se phathi ya dikopo tsa teng di ya go tlala gongwe le gongwe re gagwe e se dirang, le ka fa Batswana ba sotliwang ka bo re palelwa ke go gokela motlakase, o le teng mo teng. A re seka ra leka go itumedisa batho ka dilo tse re dipaleng, go palelwa BPC. Jaanong ka legale BPC e itseng gore, re na le seabe mo go tsone. Ke a leboga. itse gore goromente o tlaa e tlaleletsa madi fa e tshona, ga go rone gore e tlogele metlakase e nna mo dipaleng ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL jaaka e dira mo kgaolong ya me. AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR M.E.K. MASISI): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Jaanong nna fela se ke se batlang, a e re motlakase Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. I will be very brief, Mr o gogetswe mo kgaolong e re ba ba eletsang go ka Speaker. I stand to support the Honourable Minister

182 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading and express my confidence in him in doing this diligent MR MOTOWANE: Mr Speaker, you certainly did not. job. I stand to also remind this Honourable House It is totally unthinkable that that sort of description that in the BDP manifesto of 2009, we promised our could ever be issued from my own mouth at all. Tanki electorate including Honourable Khwae that we would Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, never would expand the generation of power. Thereby improving you ever even possibly hear me speak that language. the potential or possibility for increased connections This is because it has never been in my blood to speak and improving inclusion into the mainstream economy that way. Se ke se buang Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa of every Motswana as possible. Now the prerequisite to Palamente ka re, sekole sone se, se eleng gore bontsi that is that there must be power and another prerequisite jwa bana bao ke bana ba Basarwa. Ke motse o re ka following the availability of power is the distribution reng o mosha, ka gore o na le Kgosi e e iseng e sekise of that power. The loan that we want to authorise the ka fa se molaong, e nne le bakwaledi. Minister to raise, is to distribute that very power. Maiteko a a kana ke a a akgola Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo So, I support it with the full backing of the constituents tsa Palamente, ke lebile gore mme kana bana ba, fa ba of Moshupa. This loan will result in inevitably in the ne ba tshwana le ba bangwe ba ne ba tlaa bo ba siame. broadening of the economic base of the country and Ka fa sekai ke sa rumole bape ke e fa ka dikgaolo tse di I support that sincerely. My constituents are waiting kwa go nna tsa bo Salajwe. Tse e reng out of 27 schools anxiously for this to happen and for the modalities of ba bo ba nna number 27. Kana bana ba fa motlakase o the P5,000 standard charge to be finalised. So that they ne o le teng, go le bone bana ba le barutabana ba, go can connect in larger numbers. The constituents of raya gore ba ka bo ba pasitse go gaisa fa. Se ke sekai Moshupa as for other constituencies will also benefit se se rayang gore mo dikgaolong tse di tshwanang le particularly the small scale business persons who have Letlhakeng Bophirima Rraetsho, ke na le metse e ka nna hitherto afflicted by frequent power cuts. Because of mene, metlhano e e iseng e nne le motlakase. Motlakase the shortage of power and weakness and overloading jaaka bakaulengwe ba bua, ga e sa tlhole e le selo se in the lines as is the case now. This will hopefully come re tshwanetseng gore re se akanyetse gore mme a se to an end or will be reduced. felele fela kwa ditoropong. Ka jaana re solofetse e bile re batla gore bana ba rona ba ba kwa mafelong a a kwa The loan authorisation as we are going to pass it, I hope teng ao, ba akole dithuto le ditirelo jaaka ba bangwe ba today. Will enable us to go back to our constituents and ba gaufi le tsone. Tsholofelo ya me e le gore motlakase report progress that indeed we are going to deliver on o jaaka re rebotse madi a gore o ye go fetlhwa. Ra ba our promise. With those few remarks, Mr Speaker, I ra rebola gore jaanong o ye go phatlaladiwa le metse thank you. e e tshwanang Kaudwane le Sorilatholo, o e leng ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TRADE AND gore it is almost 95 per cent Basarwa. Kaudwane is INDUSTRY (MR MOTOWANE): Motsamaisa 45 kilometers from Salajwe and Sorilatholo is about Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, mma ke go leboge. Le 37 kilometers from Khudumelapye. Ke bua ka metse rona re tle re latlhele tlhware legonyana mo puong e. e e leng gaufi. E go katweng jaanong that is the last Fa re buang fa Rraetsho, ke ka kopo ya madi a go ya village e ba ka bonang motlakase kwa go yone. Golo go tsamaisa motlakase o tswa fa o tla bong o fetlhiwa gongwe fa jaanong re tlileng go amogela kopo e ya teng. E re ke ise ke tsene mo kgannyeng ke re, ka bobedi go nne go re atumetse, ka gore batho ba mafelo Mosupologo o o fetileng, ke ne ke le kwa motseng a Rraetsho ba letile. Ga re rate gore ba tloge ba nne mo o bidiwa Tshwaane; 270 kilometres go tswa fa go ya seemong sa gore ga ba a bolo go itshoka. Jalo he! ke re kwa kgaolong ya me. Ke le kwa primary school, ke ile Tona yo o lebanyeng go kokotletsa mo kgetsing e o tla go ba abela trophy tsa bana ba ba pasitseng Standard bong o ntse o kokotleletsa mo go yone Rraetsho. E re Seven go gaisa mo kgaolong eo. Go tswa mo Tshwaane fa o ya go dira list ya metse e e 100 kana e tla nna 120 yo, motse mongwe o o nang le motlakase is over 30 o gakologelwe metse e ke e buang e. Ka e bile o e itse kilometres away e le Dutlwe. Sekole se, se mo motseng thata Motlotlegi Kedikilwe kana Motlotlegi Matambo o e leng gore bontsi jwa batho golo foo ke Basarwa. ene o tlaa bo a setse a saenetse madi. Mme ba pasitse bana bao ka thuso ya Modimo. Ba Go botlhokwa gore re bue ka motlakase re sa kgale gaisa dikole... mathe mo ganong. Ka ntlha ya gore jaaka ke bua, o a re MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, did I hear you thusa mo thutong le mo botsogong. Dikokelwana kana to be saying Masarwa and you remember you made me health posts tse dingwe jaaka fa mokaulengwe mongwe and Honourable Matlhabaphiri to retract yesterday. a ne a bua, ga di kgone go baya melemo sentle ka gore ditsidifatsi tse dingwe di batla motlakase o o ikanyegang.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 183 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading Kgosi wa Takatokwane ya re fa a bua a re, “kana re batla e telele. Ba itse fa jaana ka ntata ya gore madi a ne go nna le motlakase o re o tshephang Mopalamente, ka a sa lekane go tlaa tla go fitlha kwa go bone. Fa ke gore motlakase mo Takatokwane fela fa pula gotwe e ema fa ke le Mopalamente, ke dumalana le gore madi nele kwa Francistown, o a tima mo Takatokwane”. O a ye go adingwa ba tshwanetse ba nne le tsholofelo, dirwa jaana Rraetsho, ke gore o ntse o sa lekane. Jaanong tshepho le kitso ya gore Mopalamente o ne a supa fa o bona re go ema nokeng thata re batla gore madi a ye letshwenyego la gore mme le bone a e re madi ao a go adingwa re tle re nne mo seemong sa gore e se ka ya tlile go dira tlhabololo, e ba sa bolong go e leta. Ba re pula e nele kwa Zwenshambe motlakase go bo gotwe se ka ba bona ekete jaanong bone ga go na yo o neng o amega kwa Salajwe. Ka gore jaanong re tlaa bo re o a ba buelelela. Ka jaana le fa e se kgang ya go senya dira e bile o lekana. nako, gatwe e ne e le gore moengele a re ‘o a fologa a fudue letsha, mme ka nna ga go na yo nkisang kwa Selo se sengwe, dilo tsa matshelo a malatsi ano re letsheng la bodiba gore le nna ke tle ke bone pholo, batla bana ba rona ba lebelela television, ba reetsa ba bo ba fodisiwa ba bo ba tsamaya’. Temana ya rialo radio, ba bua le cell phones ka network ka ntata ya Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Jaanong tiro gore motlakase o ba atumetse. E bile o dirile gore dilo ya Mopalamente ke go kopanya batlhophi ba gagwe le tse di nne teng. Ke tsholofelo ya gore e re kamoso re kwa ditlhabololo di tshwanetseng gore di tswe teng. E ipone re na le learning centres kana bo Kitsong Centres bile ga se kgang fela ya gore, ka gore gongwe bangwe ba aname le kgaolo e e tshwanang le yone e. E le gore ba setse ba na le thomo ya go nna Tona ba itebatse Kitsong Centres… kana ba lebale gore dikgaolo tsa bone kwa re tswang MR SPEAKER (MR MOATLHODI): Honourable teng go tsere sebakanyana ditlamelo di sa goroge. Minister, all those are the ingredients that normally Re a itumela fa re bona goromente a ema ka dinao a accompanies power. The question for consideration batla gore a ye go adima madi a re reng a madi a e this afternoon ke kopo ya kadimo ya madi from African re a adimiwa, re gakologelwe dikgaolo tse go tsereng Development Bank. I plead with your good self much lebaka ditlhabololo tse di sa goroge kwa go tsone. as I know that you have all the capabilities to articulate MR REATILE: Ke kopa tlhaloso. Motsamaisa yourself relevantly and I so do pray Honourable Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, tla ke go leboge ke leboge Minister please. le Motlotlegi Motowane. Ke ne ke re Motlotlegi kgang MR MOTOWANE: Thank you for allowing me to e a e tshwereng e ya selelo sa bo Tshwaane ke na le ene proceed Mr Speaker. I shall proceed maybe in the same mo selelong sa teng. Ke re mo kadimong ya gompieno vain. Golo fa re bua ka kopo ya madi go ya go fetlha Motlotlegi, Tshwaane kwa go se nang dithapo teng o motlakase, go o tsamaisa mme o ya kwa bathong. Re ya go akola eng, ka gore tota madi ke gore go ye go tshwanetse gore re bue kwa o tshwanetseng go ya katolosiwa fela plants kwa bo Palapye? Gongwe fa teng gore, mme madi one a a ya go thusa batho ba ba Motlotlegi o ne o tla ka selelo sa gore a re boneng gore ntseng ba le mo seemong se se ntseng jang. So, dilo Tona Motlotlegi Matambo a na le Motlotlegi Kedikilwe tse re tshwanetse re di tlhalose, mme e bile gape go ba ye go batla madi jaana, ka gore a dipitsana re setse re batla go nna a bit fair. Fa Mapalamente a mangwe ba a bone gore go ya go katolosiwa dipitsana. Jaanong re kgona go bua an hour and a half. Re bo re sa ba kotele godise motlakase go ya kwa motseng. Gongwe selelo sa go tloga nako eo, ke sa arabisanye le Motsamaisa gagwe tota re ka bo re dumalana sentle le sone. Jaanong Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. E bo e tla e re ba bangwe o lela gore motlakase ga o yo kwa Tshwaane ke ntse mo motsotsong wa bofelo jaanong go bo gotwe ka ke tlhaloganya. Jaanong madi a e leng gore a teng ke a gore e re tshaetse. Gone re tshwanetse re dire jalo, Palapye fela. Bale ga gona ka fa ba ka robang teng. Go mme ke ne ke re a re nne re simolola fela go ikotela tla roba bone ba Dutlwe kwa dithapo di setse di le teng. go tswa kwa tshimologong. Re itse gore re lebile gore MR MOTOWANE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa re bantsi. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ga ke Palamente, sepe se se dirang gore motlakase o oketsege arabisanye le wena, o a itse gore… kwa o fetlhwang teng se ntse se nkatumetsa kwa MR SPEAKER: People should be able to tell the kgaolong ya Letlhakeng Bophirima. Go nna le tsholofelo difference when a Minister stands. ya gore ditlamelo tsone tse go tla gogela teng koo. Ka jaana mafoko a re, fa e le gore ke mo utlwile sentle, gore MR MOTOWANE: Mr Speaker, people are telling dithulaganyo tsa bo Morupule B le tse dingwe ke tse di the difference ka go bua Mopalamente wa kgaolo tla re bayang mo seemong sa gore mo sebakeng se se e batho ba sa bolong go emela motlakase. O ntse o seng kae re bo re na le motlakase o o re lekanang. Ga tsamaya mo dikgaolong tse dingwe, ba o letile ka pelo re ka ke ra ya go fitlha kwa motlakase o o re lekanang

184 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading ra bo re o tima batho ba Tshwaane. Ga re ka ke ra fitlha gore e bo e re re tshwanetse gore re tshephe ene Tona kwa motlakase o o re lekanang fa ese re simolola gone yo o buang jalo, mme e bile re tshepha le badiredi ba a fa. Jalo he! ke tsaya gore go ntse go mo tseleng. berekang ka bone re ba mo neetse, go bo go tla dikgang tse o fitlhelang o ka re jaanong di sotla ene le badiredi Ntlha e nngwe e ke neng ke re ke fete ka yone ka nako ga ba puso. Ga ke buelele Honourable Matambo; he is e re letle le lone lentswe o ka re jaanong le gapiwa ke ba quite capable of doing that. Fa rona re tsamaya re ya ba solofelang gore ke tlhoke go buelela kgaolo ya me. dikeresemoseng le New Year, re le on leaves where was MR SPEAKER: It is because you are continuously the Minister of Finance; here working. Doing what; going alinger. taking care of these particular issues. O ne wa intsha setlhabelo ga mmogo le badirelapuso ba gago, gore MR MOTOWANE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa dithulaganyo tse di nne teng re tle re kgone go ema re Palamente, motlakase one o, gongwe le gongwe kwa bua ka motlakase re o batla kwa dikgaolong. Go bo re o tsenang teng batho ba o itsenyetsa mo malwapeng a ntse ekete matshwane o belaela lemepe gore ka tsela bone le businesses tsa bone. O thusa le gone go lwantsha nngwe mokgwa mongwe o teng fa go sa tlhalosiwe se borukutlhi ka jaana fa go tshubilwe mo matlong a bone le se, ba tshwanetse gongwe ba ka bo ba fitlha sengwe le mo dikgwebong tsa bone, go ya go fokotsa lefifi le is not fair on them. E bo e re re tswa fa, re bo re tla mo ba nang le lone. Palamenteng re ntse re itse ka tlhomamo gore mafoko mangwe a a neng a buega a ne a tlhotlhomisega Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, sengwe se ke e se nnete. Re bo re re, nnyaa, e rile ke ise ke nne ka se kopang maphata a puso, ke gore a e se ka ya re re Mopalamente ka tla fa ka tla go fitlhela Matona go bua ka motlakase le tse dingwe tse di lopang madi a a buiwa sengwe ka kgang ya El Tel. Yone the same El kana kana a re yang go tsaya lebaka le dingwaga re a Tel e re e itseng e bile re tlhomamisa gore yo o neng duela, tiriso ya one ya bo e sa tlhamalala. O kgona go gotwe o supiwa ka monwana ga a ise a bonwe molato tsamaya maitseboa o feta dikago tsa puso go se na ope ka sepe. It is not the function of Parliament gore re nne mo go tsone e le dikole, dipatela le diofisi le tse dingwe re tla fa re tla go sekisa re bo re atlhola re bo re baya motlakase o tshubile 24 hours. Mo go itshupa fela batho melato. Re ntse re itse gore ga re bue nnete. It is sentle gore tshomarelo ga e yo. Jaanong tshomarelo e not right and not fair. Ke kopa setilo se se foo… tshwanetse e nne teng. Re bone batho ba lemoga gore motlakase o o tshwanetse gore o tlhokomelwe. HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of clarification, Mr Speaker. Fa gongwe motlakase o isiwa kwa motseng kana kwa motsaneng, tsholofelo e le gore gongwe batho MR MOTOWANE: I am not yielding Mr Speaker. mo go tshwanang le khansele kana puso e nne bone ba ba gokelang, ba bo ba nna ba bofelo go gokela. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! I am not surprised Mo e leng gore gongwe ke sone se se tshwenyang that you are honestly inviting if not provoking for mokaulengwe Mopalamente wa Kgalagadi North. such clarifications. I want to once more Honourable Mo e reng o solofetse gore khansele e tsenye mo Assistant Minister responsible for Trade and Industry, clinic, sekoleng, kwa ntlong ya ga Mmaboipelego le plead with you to come to the track. There is nothing teachers quarters, e bo e le gore khansele ke yone ya about El Tel on this. I ordered Honourable Mmolotsi bofelo go gokela. Phelelo e ya go raya gore bao ba ba yesterday to come to the track. I never left anybody tshwanetseng gore ba duelwe tiriso ya motlakase ba and I am not going to leave you either. Please come tshwana le BPC ga ba bone sepe. Ga se gone fela, o bo to the track. o fitlhela e le gore le one maphata a puso le khansele MR MOTOWANE: Thank you Mr Speaker, there was fa go tla gore ba duele BPC ka nako, ke bone ba ba certainly nothing about El Tel yesterday and there is nyafalang go duela BPC ka nako. Go bo go raya gore certainly not anything about El Tel… go baya ba bangwe ka fa mosing. MR SPEAKER: I have made a ruling on that El Tel Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke ne ke re ke Honourable Minister. Please come to the debate on the wetse ka dintlha di le pedi. Ke kopa bakaulengwe ka table. It has nothing to do with El Tel. tsweetswee gore e nne e re fa re tla mo dikgannyeng tse di tshwanang le tsone tse re nne kelotlhoko. Nna ke tlotla MR MOTOWANE: The matter at issue Mr Speaker mafoko a ga Tona wa Madi a a reng ene le ba lephata la ke kadimo ya madi. Ga se kgang ya gore mapalamente gagwe ba sekasekile, ba bone gore golo fa go lebagane ba nne ba tla fa ba tla go tshwaana diphoso tse di seong go siame. Kadimo e ya madi ka terms tse di beilweng tse di sa dirwang. I respect you Mr Speaker and I shall gore re ka iteka mo go tsone. Se se ntshwenyang ke continue to do so, and you know it.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 185 Wednesday 7th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading The point I am making here ke gore mapalamente when the same dituelo tsa dikoloto tse puso e di dirang e itse they resume the floor. They must learn to respect the issue gore e tla a phutha madi mo Batswaneng. Fela jaaka e e jaaka Tona wa Madi le Ditlhabololo a reng “I have ne e rile maloba puso e batla gore e ye go phutha madi looked at this thing nna le badiredi ba me kwa Ministry of mo Batswaneng ka makgetho a bo VAT, ya bo e ke te Finance and Development Planning. I am confident that ga re e eme nokeng. Ke ne ke e ema nokeng nako eo, le on these terms and conditions this thing is affordable.” gompieno ke e ema nokeng. Ka gore ditlhabololo tse ke itse gore ga ke ka ke ka tla go di direlwa ke ope fa e se MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification. nna ke di itirela ka go kgetha, whether ke kwa Salajwe, Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Takatokwane kana kae fela kwa ke tshwanetseng gore ke Ke re Motlotlegi Mothusa Tona a re fetise fa gore a a emele ditlhabololo tsa me teng. re fa Tona le bana ba gagwe ba sekasekile rona kwano re seka ra tla ra sekaseka? Ka a le kalo, ke ema Tona wa Madi le Ditogamaano tsa Ditlhabololo nokeng. Mokaulengwe yo o lebaganyeng MR MOTOWANE: I have not said so Mr Speaker. le tsamaiso e ya motlakase, a dikgaolo tsa rona tse Ka re fa Tona a bua jalo re tshwanetse ra ela tlhoko se di tshwanang kwa Tshwaane le kae, fa go ntse go a se buang. Mme re seka ra tla mo seemong sa gore baakanyega jaana, a gakologelwe a bo a itse gore mo e re fa re batla ditlhaloso dingwe re bo re simolola re palong ya metse e a tla a bong a e tsenya, le tsone di selasela mo, re ba re bua dipuo tse e leng gore e tlaa re tle di nne le motlakase. E tle e re mothaope nako e kwa bofelong… mopalamente a emang a akgela, a itebaganye le kgang MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of order. Motsamaisa eo. A seka a itewa tsebe ke tse di neng di selaselwa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ga ke tshware Standing kwa di sa amame la kgang. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Order sentle. Ke tsaya gore go na le golo gongwe Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. mo Standing Order fa go kganelang gore motlotlegi MR REATILE (NGWAKETSE WEST): Mr Speaker, mopalamente a tswe mo tseleng ka fa Mothusa Tona a ke tlaa leka gore ke nne mokhutshwane. Ke sa itse gore duleng mo tseleng ka teng. Le go bua dipuo tse di sa a ke tlaa tsietsa nako e e leng fa. lekanang seemo sa maemo a gagwe. Kgang e tota ke batlang gore ke bue ka yone ke ya gore MR SPEAKER: Standing Order 46 (1), if ever you go boammaaruri re fano. Re tlile go bua ka kadimo think he is irrelevant. That is the relevant Standing ya madi a African Development Bank (ADB). Ke ne Order. ka nna le nako ya gore ke ipatlele ditshekatsheko le MR MOTOWANE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa ditlhotlhomiso ka gore o re beetse computers fale. Ka Palamente, go ya kwa bofelong, because I do not nna le gore ke ye go bona yone project ya Morupule e want be involved in any dialogue. I find the selective e leng yone kgang tsone tsa gompieno. Ke bo ke tla ka remembrance of Standing Orders not by you Mr lenaneo la Project Appraisal Report. Se ke neng ke batla Speaker improper and unfair. Le rona maabane re ne ra gore Tona wa tsa Madi le Ditogamaano tsa Ditlhabololo nna fa ra tlhoka go di gakologelwa re re bakaulengwe a se tlhalose ke kgang ya gore, go supafala gore golo ba tle ba fetse. It was not nice. It is not going to be nice, fa o tlile go kopa gore a letlelelwe go ya go adima mme gone re a itse… madi, mme ka fa Project Appraisal Report e ntseng ka teng, go supafala gore madi o ne o setse a a saenetse. MR SPEAKER: I think I am going to talk to you Fa re lebelela yone Project Appraisal Report mo Page the very last time Honourable Motowane about your 4, article 3, go supafala gore e rile ka December madi irrelevance. Please continue Honourable Minister, and a bo a saenetswe. Fa o ya kwa page 3… continue relevantly. If you have any grudge on me or anybody else, let us sort it under the trees. Not in MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT this august House. I do not expect you to do that as an PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): On a point of Honourable Minister please. clarification. I am completely not aware that the loan agreement has been signed. Can you show it? Otherwise MR MOTOWANE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo we would not be here, because we would have signed it tsa Palamente, Rraetsho Jesu yo o bonolo, mma ke gogobe. already. Please show it. Fela jaaka Mopalamente mongwe wa Tonota Borwa a e tle a bue, “mmitlwa wa noko o rotolwa ke o mongwe.” Re MR REATILE: Mr Speaker… tlaa ema gone foo ka kgang eo, ka gore tota se re batlang MOTION go wela mo go sone fa, ke gore mo kgannyeng yone e ya motlakase rra, o re yang go o duela dingwaga, it is ADJOURNMENT

186 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND e) payment of severance benefit on instalment basis. WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do now adjourn. MINISTER OF LABOUR AND HOME AFFAIRS (MR SIELE): Madam Speaker, I wish to confirm that Question put and agreed to. indeed a Labour inspection was conducted at Lobatse and Goodhope branches of Pule Funeral Services on the The House accordingly adjourned at 7:00 p.m. until 29th June 2009. The status as of today is as follows: Thursday 8th April, 2010 at 2:30 p.m. a) Poor Working Relationship Between the th Thursday 8 April, 2010 Employer and the Employees

THE ASSEMBLY met at 2.30 p. m. At issue here was the fact that since their employment, (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) most employees have never met the Director of the company, whom they believe is their employer. P R A Y E R S They felt he does not care about them. The Labour Inspectors were able to facilitate a tripartite meeting * * * * that the owner of the company managed to attend. BUSINESS MOTION He was advised to engage his employees on a regular basis to strengthen their working relationship. LEADER OF THE HOUSE (LT. GEN. MERAFHE): Madam Speaker, I beg to move in terms of Standing b) Underpayment of Minimum Wage for the Night Order 19 (2), that at the adjournment of the assembly Watchmen tomorrow, the 9th of April 2010. The present meeting According to the hours that are worked by the shall be concluded and the assembly shall then stand two night watchmen on a monthly basis, they are adjourn sine die. I therefore move accordingly. I thank supposed to be paid a total of P1, 102.40, broken you Madam Speaker. down as follows: HONOURABLE MEMBERS: (Inaudible) Normal Time MADAM SPEAKER (DR NASHA): E ga se e e • 9 hours a day x P3.20 x 13 days (day shift) = buisanngwang, ke tsamaiso. Therefore, ga go na negotiation P374.40 fa, re a dumalana. E bile re lapile. Ga re a lapa? • 10 hours a day x P3.20 x 13 days (night shift) = HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Re lapile! P416 MADAM SPEAKER: Le Honourable Modubule tota Overtime o lapile. • 5 hours x 1.5 x 13 days = P312 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER Total: P1102.40 per month LABOUR ISSUES AT LOBATSE AND GOODHOPE BRANCHES OF PULE FUNERAL The employer was found paying his night watchmen SERVICES P721 each per month. He was advised to rectify the anomaly. To date he has not done so and the matter MR N. M. MODUBULE (LOBATSE): asked the was referred to the Police on 7th April 2010 pursuant to Minister of Labour and Home Affairs what corrective provisions of Section 138(2) as read with Section 151 measures were taken following the Department of of the Employment Act, Cap.47:01. Labour and Social Security’s inspection of Lobatse and Goodhope branches of Pule Funeral Services on c) Underpayment of Overtime for Most the 29th June 2009, which revealed the following:- Employees a) poor working relations between employer and The employees, except Drivers, work eight hours a employee; day. There were no records to prove their overtime. b) underpayment of minimum wages for the The Drivers usually worked on weekends. They are nightwatchmen; entitled to two rest days in a month, overtime payment c) underpayment of overtime for most employees; and an allowance of P30 per day worked during the weekend. There is no violation in this regard. d) late payment of wages; and

Hansard No 163 Part 4 187 Thursday 8th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

d) Late Payment of Wages (1) The power to appoint a person to hold or act in offices to which this section applies and to remove The company is still paying wages late. In from office and to exercise disciplinary control accordance with the provision of Section 77(3) over persons holding or acting in such offices shall, as read with Section 151 of the Employment Act, subject to the provisions of sections 113 and 114 of Cap.47:01, the matter was referred to the Police this Constitution, vest in the President. for prosecution on the 14th December 2009. (2) The offices to which this section applies are – e) Payment of Severance Benefits on Instalment Basis a) Ambassador, High Commissioner or other principal representative of Botswana in any The employees complained that their employer other country or accredited to any international pay them the severance benefit in instalments, as organisation; such the little money they receive does not add any value to their lives. In extreme cases he does b) Secretary to the Cabinet; not pay completely. The matter was also referred to the Police for prosecution on the 10th February c) Attorney- General; 2010. I thank you Madam Speaker. d) Permanent Secretary;

MR MODUBULE: Honourable Speaker, would the e) Commissioner of Police; and Minister say whether the Police have taken any action so far with regard to matters that were referred to the f) Any other superscale office Police? Madam Speaker, in making these appointments the Lastly, is the Minister aware that despite the inspection President uses his executive powers and, consideration that has been carried by his department, as of today, is given to the personal attributes and skills of the workers at this company have not been paid for the last individual being appointed. three months? I wish to point out to the Honourable Member that at MR SIELE: The matter as referred to the Police, I hope no point does Section 112 of the Constitution make they are pursuing the matter within the framework of reference to political appointments and as such labeling the law. As regard the late payment for three months, these appointments political would be misleading. I I am not aware, and I will request the Honourable thank you Madam Speaker and hope that this clarifies Member to provide me with the details, so that I can the matter. take an appropriate action. DECLINE IN ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE OF APPOINTMENT OF AMBASSADORS AND STUDENTS IN CHOBE, WEST AND NORTH HIGH COMMISSIONERS WEST REGIONS

MR P. KHWAE (KGALAGADI NORTH): asked MR B. ARONE (OKAVANGO): asked the Minister of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and International Education and Skills Development if she is aware of the Cooperation to state:- decline in academic performance of students in the West, North West and Chobe regions; if so, what measures i) what is considered when making political will the Ministry take to remedy this situation. appointments of Ambassadors and High Commissioners; and MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): ii) whether any member of an opposition party Madam Speaker, I am aware of the general decline in Botswana has ever been appointed to such in academic performance of students in this country, positions. particularly in the West, North West and Chobe MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND Regions. There are several measures that we have put INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION (MR in place to address this situation including intensifying SKELEMANI): Madam Speaker, the authority to school supervision as well as placing more emphasis appoint Ambassadors/High Commissioners is vested on teacher support. At primary school level, we have in His Excellency the President by Section 112 of the taken a deliberate decision to revive the breakthrough Constitution which states thus: method which has proved to be effective in promoting literacy and numeracy skills.

188 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Madam speaker, we have a challenge of attracting and MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND retaining qualified and experienced teachers in the WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): most rural and remote, of our villages in this country. Madam Speaker, Fluor Daniel Holdings Botswana, a I am consulting on different strategies that we can subsidiary of Fluor International, has been awarded use to attract and retain such teachers in those areas. the contract to manage the engineering, procurement I am convinced that if we succeed in this endeavour, and construction elements of Cut 8 expansion. we should be able to witness an improvement in the Fluor Daniel has been in existence since 1912, I am performance of our students. Thank you. informed, and is an international project management organisation specializing in major construction MAINTENANCE OF RAILWAY LINE projects across the globe. BETWEEN SERULE AND SELEBI PHIKWE As of April 2010, some 74 contracts have been awarded MR G. SALESHANDO (SELIBE PHIKWE WEST): as part of the Cut 8 Project. Of these, 43 or 58 per cent asked the Minister of Transport and Communications have been awarded to locally owned or locally based who is responsible for the fencing and maintenance of companies with the rest 31 or 42 per cent awarded to the railway line between Serule and Selebi Phikwe. foreign organisations.

MINISTER OF TRANSPORT AND As at the end of March 2010 some 1,466 persons were COMMUNICATIONS (MR RAMSDEN): Madam employed by contracts on the Cut 8 project. Of these Speaker, Botswana Railways is responsible for 1,241 or 85 per cent are citizen while 225 or 15 per maintenance of the railway line between Serule and cent are expatriate contractors. Selebi-Phikwe as well as the fence for the rail reserve. I thank you Madam Speaker. Regarding Employment Laws of Botswana governing recruitment of expatriate skills, all companies working MR G. SALESHANDO: Nnyaa, mme kana ga go na on the Cut 8 Project have been made aware that terata Minister. Ga o na go tsamaya o ya bona gore ga e their obligation is to employ citizen skills wherever yo, gore o tle o thuse gore go ka nna le terata? possible. Consequently the expatriate workforce MADAM SPEAKER: The question was who is typically consists of those skill sets which are either responsible. in short supply or not available within Botswana, for example; specialised engineering skills in Geotechnical MR RAMSDEN: Ee Rra, ka gore the Member is Engineering, Mining Engineering, maintenance and saying ga go na terata, gongwe o raya ya tsela, kana operation of specialised equipment used in the project. they are two; there is the fence for the rail line and I thank you Madam Speaker. then there is a fence for the road. Ka tsone tse nna ga ke itse, but in any case I will take your invitation Sir, I MOTHER TONGUE LANGUAGE EDUCATION will go and verify. Thank you. AT PRIMARY SCHOOL LEVEL

MADAM SPEAKER: Mme gone o ka bo o ne o MR B. ARONE (OKAVANGO): asked the Minister tlhamaladitse potso sentle Honourable G. Saleshando. of Education and Skills Development when she will introduce mother tongue language education at CONTRACT MANAGEMENT OF CUT-8 primary school level, given the evidence that students learn best using their mother tongue, development is MR M. R. REATILE (NGWAKETSE WEST): asked cultural and that eight (8) of our indigenous languages the Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water Resources have orthographies. to state:- MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS i) the name of the company which has been awarded DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): Thank the tender for the contract management of Cut-8; you Madam Speaker, there are no immediate plans ii) the other companies working at Cut-8 and how to introduce mother tongue language in education at many of these are foreign companies; primary school level. Honourable Members would recall that the recommendation to use mother tongue is iii) the number of citizens and non citizens working amongst those deferred by Parliament in its adoption there; and and reported in the White Paper No. 2 of 1994 having adopted the report. Even though the recommendation iv) whether, in the event that the companies have was deferred at that time, government has kept the employed non-citizens, such non-citizens possess discussion alive at various fora on the use of “mother- any special or scarce skills

Hansard No 163 Part 4 189 Thursday 8th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

tongue” at early primary education. It is clear that iii) how much has been allocated to the incoming even though this might be a desirable move Madam first year students and how it compares with the Speaker, the development and implementation of the same category for the last three years. programme is of significant magnitude and would require resources currently not at our disposal. Since MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS it is expected that all languages should receive equal DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): benefit from government, we have since considered it Madam Speaker, impractical and unaffordable at this time to undertake the recommendation. I Thank you. i) total allocated budget for 2010/2011 for Tertiary Education is P6,367,119,827; of which, P3, MR G. SALESHANDO: Gakere mme Tona o a 043,813,060 is for recurrent and P3,323,306,767 dumela gore, therefore the education system is not is for development. only exclusive but also discriminatory? ii) The 2010/2011 overall tertiary education budget MS VENSON-MOITOI: Nnyaa, ga ke dumele. as stated above is P6,367,119,827 compared to

MR ARONE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Would • P1,974,922,940 for 2007/2008 then the Minister agree that part of the reason why the results are very, very low in the North and Western • P3,188,061,438 for 2008/2009 and part of this country is because of the exclusiveness, the • P4,427,248,540 for 2009/2010, while failure of using mother tongue language? overall tertiary education expenditures for the MADAM SPEAKER: What is the question same period were: Honourable Arone? • For 2007/2008 P1, 990, 091, 816 MR ARONE: The question is, the failure to use • For 2008/2009 P3, 405, 050, 517 and mother tongue in schools, is the minister aware that is has contributed to low results in the areas that we are • For 2009/2010 P2, 772, 747, 149 talking about, of the North-West? Madam Speaker, this house has to note that the MS VENSON-MOITOI: Kana Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo 2009/2010 figure is only as at the time of the tsa Palamente, ke arabile kgang e. Ga ke ise ke latole preparing this answer, and may change as my gore fa bana ba rutiwa ka puo e ba e utlwang gongwe go Ministry is still closing books of accounts. ka tokafatsa maduo. Kgang ke gore re lebagane le thuto ya setshaba sotlhe kwa lephateng la thuto. Re direla mo iii) There is no budget allocation for first year seemong se e leng gore morutabana a bua Seyei o kgona students (New students) for 2010/2011, while gore a ye go berekela kwa Borolong. Kwa a yang go allocations for the first year students for the last fitlhela puo e sele. Ka gore we transfer batho lefatshe three years were: le lotlhe. Kgang ke gore a gatwe fa re na le morutabana • P 888, 536, 430 for 2007/2008 wa Moyei, Motswapong, Mokalaka le wa Mosarwa kwa Bobirwa, re age dikole di le kalo, mongwe le mongwe • P 962, 687, 490 for 2008/2009 and re bo re mmatlela bana. Ke sone se ke reng selo se bagaetsho, se ka bo se eletsega. Mo nakong ya gompieno • P 470, 055, 580 for 2009/2010 ga re kake ra se kgona, se santse se le thata. During the presentation of the budget of my Ministry MONEY ALLOCATED TO TERTIARY I did inform this Honourable House that it would have EDUCATION FOR 2010/2011 been difficult to make a specific request in the middle of the ongoing investigations at the department. I informed MR B. ARONE (OKAVANGO): asked the Minister this Honourable House that once the investigations are of Education and Skills Development:- complete we will be able to draw up proper budget and that I would be coming back to request Parliament to i) how much money has been allocated to tertiary consider a supplementation to the allocation given us. education for the year 2010/2011; In the meantime we have identified possible savings in ii) how this compares with both the budgets and the funds allocated for continuing students. Some of expenditure for the same in the past three years; these funds will be used to finance new students. and Thank you.

190 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

TOP TEN SECTORAL TAX REVENUE factors. Further, the taxes that companies pay are not EARNERS IN NDP 9 based only on profits. Instead, they are paid on the taxable income, which could be substantially lower MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked than the realised company profits due to exemptions the Minister of Finance and Development Planning to and deductions provided for in the Income Tax Act. state:- This makes it even more difficult to project the tax i) the top ten sectoral tax (VAT and Company Tax) revenue from the different sectors. In view thereof, revenue earners during the National Development it is not possible to project from the data held by Plan (NDP) 9 period; BURS, the chargeable income of the top ten sectors and consequently, the tax they would be liable to pay, ii) their combined net profits during the NDP 9 during the NDP 10 period. period; Madam Speaker, I have explained, in my answer to iii) the projected top ten sectoral tax revenue amount Parliamentary Question No: 481 from the Honourable for NDP 10; and Member of Parliament for Shoshong on the 22nd March, 2010, that the Botswana Unified Revenue Service iv) the total amount of corporate social responsibility currently does not keep records in its tax data systems support given in terms of sponsorship or donations of the amount of tax deductible donations made by by those sectors during the NDP 9 period. the different companies or sectors. This information is ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND kept in the individual taxpayers’ files and not easily DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR TIBONE): retrievable. For that reason, my Ministry is not able Madam Speaker, the Botswana Unified Revenue to provide the total amount of the corporate social Service (BURS) uses the Botswana Industrial Standard responsibility support given in terms of sponsorships Classification (BISC) provided by the Central Statistics or donations by above mentioned sectors during the Office (CSO) to allocate establishments (businesses) to NDP 9 period. I thank you Madam Speaker. the various economic sectors. According to preliminary ACCOMMODATION SHORTAGE FOR PUBLIC records computed by BURS in terms of the BISC, the OFFICERS top tax revenue earners by sector during the NDP 9 period, which are listed in a descending order based MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked on their revenue contribution, were as follows: Mining the Minister of Lands and Housing:- and Quarrying, Wholesale and Retail Trade, Financial Intermediaries, Real Estate, Renting and Business i) What the accommodation shortage is for public Activities, Construction, Manufacturing, Transport officers at national level; and Communications, Electricity/Gas and Water ii) what the accommodation shortage for the same Supply and finally, Hotels and Restaurants.BURS cadre is in the Shoshong Constituency; and is still reconciling its data in respect of information which has not been attributed to any specific Industry iii) whether he would be in a position to present Classification, which may, when finalised, change this this as a business opportunity especially for rankings I just said out. Village Development Committees and housing cooperatives. The combined chargeable income in respect of the ten sectors during NDP 9 was about P92 billion. The figures MINISTER OF LANDS AND HOUSING (MR do not include the revenue contributions attributed to MOLEFHI): Madam Speaker the accommodation Pay As You Earn (PAYE) and Value Added Tax (VAT) shortage for public officers nationally stood at 71 because in both instances the companies only act as 256 as at end of 2008. This is an assumption that all collection agents whilst the tax is paid either by their public officers will be eligible for housing. This employees or the ultimate consumers, respectively. figure was derived from the difference between the total establishment of the public service and existing Madam Speaker, the profit of any business is a function housing units accommodating public officers. The of many variables such as efficiency, productivity, accommodation shortage for public officers in Shoshong market conditions, competition, product demand and constituency is 84 units. This figure which is derived the global economic climate in which the business from the District Commissioners office is made up of operates. BURS is, therefore, not in a position even officers deployed at Primary Schools, Health Facilities, to make rough estimates of the profits of businesses Tribal Administration, Library and land Board. because they may vary depending on the aforesaid

Hansard No 163 Part 4 191 Thursday 8th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR WRITTEN ANSWER

It is government policy to promote private sector expect that the candidate will respond to the offer participation in housing delivery. As such the figures and start work as soon as possible. given above are able to inform potential developers to make a determination as to the viability of investing ii) When the post of Finance Manager at the BNPC in housing provision in the Shoshong constituency. fell vacant, in October 2005 it was advertised This principle also applies to the VDCs and housing and no suitable local citizen was found, hence cooperatives. I thank you Madam Speaker. the employment of an expatriate. However, an employee of BNPC currently working as QUESTIONS FOR WRITTEN ANSWER Management Accountant has been identified to take over the post when the expatriate’s contract STANDARD ELECTRICITY CONNECTION expires in October, 2011. FEE FOR FARMERS iii) Madam Speaker, there is no progress in MR G. R. M. NSHIMWE (CHOBE): asked the outsourcing housekeeping duties at BNPC Minister of Minerals, Energy and Water Resources because the company that was awarded the if he will consider availing the standard connection tender in April 2009 could not obtain a licence fee of electricity (P5 000) to farmers for purposes of to run the facilities. In January 2010, the Board promoting production in the farming communities. of BNPC decided to suspend the outsourcing MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND project for twelve months in order to consider WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Madam alternative ways to outsourcing. I thank you, Speaker, the primary objective of NESC is to increase Madam Speaker household connections to the national grid, considering PROPERTY HANDING OVER AT KALAMARE that the commendable efforts made in electrifying COMMUNITY JUNIOR SECONDARY SCHOOL villages across the country were not matched by a corresponding growth in household connections. MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked the Minister of Education and Skills Development:- On the basis of the above, farmers are not currently covered by the scheme, as the high cost of electrifying i) if she is aware that a school hall, counselling farming areas would render the National Electrification centre and some teachers’ houses in Kalamare Fund unsustainable. Electrification of farming areas, or Community Junior Secondary School have not production units as I call them, is not an issue, highly yet been handed over to the school administration desirable as it is; what is at issue is that currently by the contractor, despite construction having resources cannot be stretched to cover farming areas. been completed in April, 2009; if so Thank you, Madam Speaker. ii) when will this property be handed to the school, FILLING POSTS AT BOTSWANA NATIONAL given the huge opportunity costs and loss to PRODUCTIVITY CENTRE Government.

MR E. J. BATSHU (NKANGE): asked the Minister MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS for Presidential Affairs and Public Administration:- DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): Madam Speaker, I have been made aware that the school dining i) when the post of Chief Executive Officer of the hall and kitchen, Guidance and Counselling facility, Botswana National Productivity Centre (BNPC) staff houses as well as all associated external works at will be filled; Kalamare Community Junior Secondary School have ii) why the post of Finance Manager at BNPC has not yet been handed over to the school management. been de-localised; and The project started in 1st July 2008 and was completed as th iii) what progress has been made regarding the scheduled on 17 March 2009. Regrettably, it could not outsourcing of house-keeping duties at BNPC. be handed over because power could not be connected to the newly constructed facilities. This was because MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS AND the existing power in the school was not sufficient PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MS MOTSUMI): and power upgrading was inevitable. Botswana Power Madam Speaker, Corporation was paid on the 19th August 2009 and only upgraded power at the school in February 2010. The i) An offer has been made to a suitable candidate to facilities have since been connected and tested. The fill the position of BNPC Executive Director. We delay in the power upgrading was due to difficulties

192 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) encountered in acquiring transformers by BPC. The (Minister of Finance and Development Planning) constructed facilities are due for hand over to the school on Friday 26th March 2010. Thank you. MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) Madam Speaker. Ke ne ke re ke a amogela gore nako e BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) setse e ile. Ke re kana go a tle go nne le malatsi a re e tleng re boloke nako mo go yone e ya dipotso. Second Reading

MADAM SPEAKER: Ga ke itse gore moo ke eng (Resumed Debate) Honourable Makgalemele. Question time is relevant MR REATILE (NGWAKETSE WEST): Mma ke go only for the day. There are no carryovers. So, fa go ne leboge Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Maabane go setse five minutesmaabane , it does not apply today. ke ne ke santse ke supa gore Tona wa tsa madi fa a tla That is how it goes, thank you. mo Ntlong e, re tshwanetse re bo re na le kitso ya gore TABLING OF PAPERS re tlile go mo letlelela go ya go adima madi. Mme ka fa go neng go ntse ka teng, ke ne ke supa gore ka gore ke The following papers were tabled: na le pampiri ya project appraisal report, e ke neng ke sa tswa go tlhalosa gore e supa gore madi a kana e setse STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 77 OF e le a concept note approval, e e dirilweng ka 27th May 2009: REAL ESTATE PROFESSIONALS 2009. Project approval ya tla ya dirwa ka October 2009. REGULATIONS, 2009 Effectiveness e simolola ka April 2010. Jaanong Tona e (Minister of Lands Housing) ne e le gore a re ke mo neele signature. Mme nna ke supa gore, golo mo ke mokang Tona a setse a dirile sengwe le STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 26 OF sengwe. Jaanong re tla fa e le gore re tlile go rurifatsa kana 2010: CONTROL OF GOODS (NATIONAL go dumalana dilo tse e leng gore Tona o setse a feditse ka ELECTRIFICATION (LEVY) REGULATIONS, tsone. Ke yone kgang e ke neng ke e bua, ke lebile loan 2010. information e ke neng ke e tsaya mo website ya bone.

(Minister of Trade and Industry) MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Point of clarification STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 27 OF 2010: Madam Speaker. We are here seeking authorization for NATIONAL ELECTRIFICATION FUND approval of the African Development Bank Loan for ORDER, 2010. Morupule B Power Station. Yesterday I understood you (Minister of Finance and Development Planning) to be saying that we have already signed that loan. So, I want you to tell me, where is the loan agreement that we STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 28 OF 2010: have signed and what are your quoting from, by the way GHANZI DISTRICT COUNCIL (NOISE AND right now? The information you are taking to us. NUISANCE) (AMENDMENT) BYE-LAWS, 2010. Thank you. (Assistant Minister of Local Government) MR REATILE: Ee, ke ka go e neela ka bokhutshwane. STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 31 OF 2010: Ke nopole mo African Development Bank Project, KGALAGADI DISTRICT COUNCIL (DAY- Morupule B Power Project, country – Botswana. CARE CENTRE) BYE-LAWS, 2010. Project appraisal e e dirilweng ka 15th September (Assistant Minister of Local Government) 2009, Page No. 3.

TWENTY-FOURTH (24TH) ANNUAL REPORT HONOURABLE MEMBER: Page 3, what is that? OF THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR AND MR REATILE: Ka re loan information, I have it here. SOCIAL SECURITY, 2008. The whole page.

(Minister of Labour and Home Affairs) MADAM SPEAKER: Just go to whatever you want REPORT OF THE AUDITOR GENERAL to quote Honourable Member. ON THE ACCOUNTS OF THE BOTSWANA MR REATILE: The last paragraph. GOVERNMENT FOR THE FINANCIAL YEAR ENDED 31ST MARCH 2009. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Inaudible)...

Hansard No 163 Part 4 193 Thursday 8th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) MADAM SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members kwa a saene loans, re tswelele re oketse thakgiso ya behind the Minister, do you want to quote now motlakase mo lefatsheng la rona. Ke yone kgang e tota Honourable Member? ke neng ke batla gore nna ke supe gore ke mo ema nokeng ka mabaka a a kalo. Mme ke bo ke ntsha gore MR REATILE: Yes, Madam Speaker. Ke ne ke supa se ke neng ke se supa e ne e le tlhobaelo, mme ke a th gore the concept note approval is 27 May 2009, project leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. approval October 2009, effectiveness April 2010. The last disbursement will be at 31st December 2013, MINISTER OF LABOUR AND HOME AFFAIRS completion 31st December 2012 and last payment will (MR SIELE): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa be January 2013, it is the information before me here. Palamente. Ke lebogela gore o nneele sebaka se. Mme e re fa ke ema jaana, ke bo ke supa fa ke ema Tona MR MATAMBO: Honourable Speaker, point of nokeng, mo Kakanyetsong-molao o a o bayang fa. Wa clarification. I think we might be looking at different gore a rebolwe a ye go adima madi kwa bankeng ya documents, but from the heading I have the same maAfrica ya ditlhabololo. Gore e tle e re go ntse jaana, document here, when you said Page 3, I have Page go ye go gotsiwa leiso la bobedi, le mo go lone go tlaa 3 here. If you can just specify the number of the tlhatlewang pitsa e go tlaa fetlhwang motlakase mo go paragraph so that I can be with you, because I am on yone. Ke re kana fa re ka nna le maiso le dipitsa tse go page Page 3. Thank you. ka fetlhwang motlakase mo go tsone tse di tona kwa MR REATILE: Gongwe ke buile ka fanakalo. Morupule, re tlaa imologa morwalo wa gore gompieno Gongwe ke go reye ke re it is Roman figure three jaana, puso e bo e tshwere bothata jwa gore motlakase (III). Ke fa ke leng teng gone foo. Jaanong gongwe o bo o tlhaela jaaka fa o tlhaela mo lefatsheng leno. o fitlhe teng foo re tle re nne mmogo. Ke setse ke mo Jaaka fa re lebile mo magaeng a rona Motsamaisa tlhaloseditse. Ke sone se ke se supang Madam Speaker Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, metse e e farologanyeng, gore, gongwe fa e ne e le gore re tsena fa e le gore le fa motlakase o leng teng, o santse o tlhaela. Magae tota jaaka Motlotlegi Gaolathe e ne e re a dira, a bo a a atologa. Batho ba bewa ditsha fa motlakase o leng a re dipuisanyo ke setse ke di dirile, tota ke tlile go kgakala teng, mme ga o kake wa ba fitlhela ka ntateng kopa tetla mo go lona gore ke ye go tswelela ke saene. ya gore o a tlhaela. Ke re kana, leiso le le tlaa re thusa Jaanong ke ne ke re, fa ke latlhela bofofu, go nna jaaka thata mo go fetlheng motlakase. Re bona jaaka mo e kete loan e Tona a tlileng ka yone, e setse tota sengwe metseng ya rona e e farologanyeng, kwa e leng gore le sengwe se fetile. Jaanong o letse a bua maabane gore dikole tse dipotlana tse di tlhokang ditlamelo tsa ke mo kaetse fa monwana o leng teng. Ke gone fa page motlakase le dibalamakgolo, ditlamelo tse di ntseng ya loan infomation, ke neng ke bua ke e lebile. Ke jalo ga ba kgone go di dira ntateng ya gore motlakase one matshwenyego a me. Ka gore Tona o santse a re o a tlhaela. Ke baya sekai fela, ke na le lekwalo le le bolelela gore ene ga a a saena. Matshwenyego a me e tlileng kwa sekoleng sengwe sa kgaolo ya me, ba nkopa ne e le mo go reng fa e le gore loan e o setse o e saenne, gore ke ba rekele sefetlha motlakase kana generator. tota go tlaa bo go le maleba ka fa tsamaiso ya lefatshe Ka ntateng ya gore ba na le television e ba ka bong ka la Botswana e tsayang loans ka teng. yone ba bona ditshwantsho kana ka fa ba ka thusiwang Kgang e tota ke mo go yone ke ya gore, ke tswelela ka teng. Mme e le leduopo lwa gore ga go na motlakase fela to support loan e jaaka ke eme nokeng loan ya kwa magaeng. ntlha. E ke dumelang gore e ya go dira tiro bontle, gore Mme ke re Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, re tswelele re nna le motlakase ka gore pampiri e ke e se Tona a se dirang ke namane e tona ya tiro. Re tshwereng, e na le information e ntsi e e leng gore e ka tshwanelwa ke gore re mo eme nokeng, re bo re mo thusa dikgang tse dintsi tse Tona maabane a sa leng a rapedise Modimo gore a tlhe tiro e a e tshwereng e, e tlhola a ntse a di bolelelwa mo Palamenteng. Go a supa tle e atlege. E tle e re mo dingwageng di se kae tse re di tota gore ka fa lenaneo le le tsamayang ka teng, e tlaa lebileng jaaka fa a bua, lefatshe leno le bo le kgona gore re ka bo 2014, motlakase jaanong re tlaa bo re kgona le bo le ikemetse ka bonosi mo go anamiseng motlakase. gore re o rekise kwa ntle. Mme dilelo tsa mapalamente Kana re bona gore jaaka gompieno jaana re tshwere, re ka fa ba neng ba ntse ba bua ka teng, re tlaa bo re reka motlakase mo mafatsheng a re bapileng nao. Mme kgonne. Jaanong gongwe re simolole go rotloetsa Tona kana jaaka Motswana a bua, ‘lerotse la makotswa ga le ka gore re itse gore ka 2014, motlakase o re tlaa bong na kgodu’. E ka nna ya re re ntse re ntse jaana, ya re re na nao o tlaa bo o lekanye, jaanong re simolola go ka le bone ba imelwa, ya re ba ntse jalo, ba kgona gore rekisa kwa ntle. Re mo kope a simolole a batlele metse jaanong ba lebe magae a bone fela. e e setseng madi. Re mo rebole a ye go adima madi

194 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) Mme ke re Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, Mme ke re, ke go kope, bakaulengwe bangwe e rile tota ka fa go ntseng ka teng, re ne re tshwanelwa ke fa ba bua, ba go kopile gore e ne e re fa re ile go kopa gore rotlhe jaaka fa re tswa kwa magaeng le metse ya one madi a, re ela tlhoko go tsenelela go bona gore ditoropo, motlakase o tlhaela jaaka fa o tlhaela jaana, Batswana seabe sa bone mo go tsone projects tse fa di e re Tona jaaka fa a kopa jaana, rotlhe mo Ntlong e, setse di dirwa, se ka oketsega go le kae. Ke amogela re mo eme nokeng. Ke solofela gore fa go diregile gore o re tlhaloseditse gore mo gongwe go a bo go jalo, e tlaa re mo dingwageng di se kae, metse e re e se na gore go ka tweng ka gore fa gongwe e a bo e le emetseng e e tlhokang metlakase, e kgone go o bona. boitseanape jo re se nang le jone mo lefatsheng la rona, Ka gore motlakase ke sedirisiwa sa botlhokwa mo jalo jalo. Mme e re ntswa gone ke go utlwile, mme ke botshelong jwa gompieno. Gompieno ga e sa tlhole ntse ke eletsa gore o e lebelele sentle Tona. Nna ke e re fa motho a na le motlakase, a bo a tsewa e le dumela gore re santse re ka atolosa, ra ba ra nontsha tse makgorwane. Motlakase ke selo se se tlhokafalang mo re felelang re di bona fa re ile go bapalela tsetse mo go botshelong jwa gompieno. Mme ke re ka mafoko a a yone kgang e ya dikopo tsa madi. O bone gore o ka e kana Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke ema tokafatsa jang, le ka oketsa jang mabaka a dipuisanyo nokeng Tona. E bile ke kopa bakualengwe fano jaaka ka gore nna ke dumela gore re le lefatshe la Botswana, fa ke lemoga e bile ke solofela gore, re tlaa ema Tona re na le comparative advantages tse dintsi tse e leng nokeng. Gore Ntlo e e mo letlelele go ya kwa bankeng gore re ka oketsa boleng jwa se re felelang re se roba ya maAfrica ya ditlhabololo, ba tle ba mo neele kana fa re le mo dipuisanyong tsa go nna jalo. ba mo adime madi a gore ka one, re tle re kgone go atolosa ditlamelo tsa motlakase mo dikgaolong tsa Sa bobedi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, e rona tse di farologanyeng. le sa bofelo, e ne e le mengwe megopolo fela, bogolo thata ke itebagantse le one motlakase. Boammaaruri ke Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. A gore lephata la ga Tona Kedikilwe le dira go le gontsi Palamente e eme Tona nokeng. go dira bojotlhe gore motlakase o goroge mo metseng ka go farologana, go tswa gore re ba file madi a a kana MR MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): Ke a leboga kang. Mme mo nakong e e tlang, ke ne ke eletsa gore Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Le nna ke ema gongwe Tona Kedikilwe le bana ba gago, le sekaseke fano go ema Tona nokeng mo kopong ya gagwe ya ntlha ya gore, go na le metse e e leng gore e setse e gore re mo rebole gore a ye go adima madi kwa go ba na le motlakase, mme o bo o fitlhela e le gore batho African Development Bank (ADB). ba felela ba sa kgone gore ba ikgolegelele motlakase. Mme ke re, kana kopo ya ga Tona, Motsamaisa Mabaka a mantsi, ba bangwe o tlaa fitlhela e le gore Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, gongwe re ka e dira ga bedi gongwe jaaka o ne o re tlhalosetsa maloba, gongwe e kana re ka e farologanya ga bedi. Sa ntlha ke gore, o re le batho ba na le dikgomo di ka nna lesome, gongwe kopa tetla ya gore re mo letlelele go ya go adima madi. ba ka bo ba ne ba rekisitse e le nngwe gore ba kgone Sa bobedi, mme e bile o re kopa jaana a re bolelela go ntsha deposit, mme ba bo ba sa dire jalo. Mme se gore madi a, o a kopela eng jaaka e le gore o a kopela ke lekang go se kopa e ne e le gore le yone kgang e re go atolosa tse di amanang le tsa motlakase. bone gore, gongwe o tshwaraganye le bakaulengwe ba gago, e ka tswa e le ba temothuo, re bone gore go ka Mme ke re, mo kgannyeng e e itebagantseng le yone duwa ka megopolo e e ntseng jang, e e faphegileng e e kopo, ke go ema nokeng Tona, ke lebeletse mabaka ka rotloetsang batho gore ba ba kgonang ba kgone gore a o re a beileng pele, conditions tse e leng gore ba o ba ikgolegelele motlakase. neng o buisanya le bone ba go di beile pele kana le di dumalanye. Mme e bile o re tlhomamiseditse gore MADAM SPEAKER: Do not stray too far from the wena le bana ba gago le dirile bojotlhe jo le neng Bill, Honourable Member. le ka bo kgona, gore le re batlele ditumalano tse di MR MAKGALEMELE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa botoka, re lebeletse seemo ka fa se neng se ntse ka Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. teng. Ditumalano tsa teng di na le gore re tlaa nna lengwe lebaka re ise re simolole go duela. Morokotso E nngwe e ke neng ke batla go e kopa ke e lebagantse fa o o lebeletse, ke morokotso fela o o kwa tlase. le Tona Kedikilwe, ka gore kopo e o tla kwano a e Mme ke re, ke le leboge gore le bo le ne la tsenelela pataganetse le Tona Matambo le Tona Tibone. Ke re ke mo dipuisanyong tse di ntseng jalo, la ba la re tlela mo kope gore a dire ditshekatsheko tsa go bona gore, ka ditumalano tse nna ke dumelang gore di lebega di jaaka ke ne ke supa gore bangwe ga ba kgone go tsenya siame thata, bogolo jang tsone tse o re di beileng pele motlakase, gongwe ba ne ba ka kgona fa ba ne ba ka tse, Tona. rotloediwa mo go faphegileng. Mme go na le ba bangwe

Hansard No 163 Part 4 195 Thursday 8th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) ba e leng gore tota e le ruri ga ba kgone gotlhelele, mme Most importantly, my last point is on the issue of gas fa motlakase o ne o le teng, ka gore ke one wa dikarata o emissions. The combined mines of Morupule A and B o rekiwang, gongwe ba ne ba ka kgona go ya go reka ba will certainly increase the level if not volume of the gas bo ba kgona gore ba o dirise. Mme kgang ya teng, jaaka emissions. We must not adopt the attitude that I tended e ne e buiwa ke Motlotlegi Mangole maloba, gongwe o to feel was being adopted that European countries e sekaseke le yone. Mme o e sekaseke in the context ya developed without any consequence or consideration gore, a go na le ka fa private sector e ka nnang involved to the gas emissions and why should we do today. ka teng. Gongwe mma ke tseye sekai, motse o tshwana No, we are part of the international community and le wa Ikongwe fa o setse o na le motlakase jaaka ke the standards they set with respect to the gas emission itse gore o ya go o tsenya mo bogaufing teng, gongwe must also affect us. After all, they are our friends. If we re ka bua le private sector gore ba nne involved mo go do not take that as a very important consideration, if it thuseng batho go tsenya motlakase. Mme e re fa ba o does not affect the loan we are asking for now, it will tsentse jalo, e bo e le gore re itse gore ba ka tla ba nna le certainly affect other loans and our relationships in the dipoelo jaaka fa motlakase wa dikarata o ntse o rekiwa. future. I thank you Madam Speaker. Ga se selo se ke dirileng dipatlisiso tse di tseneletseng, mme ke ne ke go kopa ka ke itse o le motho yo o ratang MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND tiro ya gago thata, e bile o e tsaya ka pelo yotlhe. E nne WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): nngwe ya dilo tse e leng gore o tlaa kopa bana ba gago Point of clarification Madam Speaker. I thank you ba e sekaseka. very much Honourable colleague. The point of clarification, Madam Speaker, is that we do take the Mme fela bagaetsho, ke ema Tona nokeng. Ga go na question of carbon emissions seriously and we have gore kadimo ya madi re ka tlhoka gore re se ka ra started discussions with the Government of Japan in tsena mo go yone. Ke bontlha bongwe jwa go tsamaisa that regard. They are quite good in the technology that itsholelo. Ke a leboga. reduces carbon emissions. There is no way in this day and age that we could take issues of carbon emissions MR KESUPILE (KANYE SOUTH): Thank you and global warming lightly. Thank you. Madam Speaker, I will be very brief. The Honourable Minister’s request is a very important step, belated as MR KESUPILE: Thank you Madam Speaker. it is, it is a very important step. We are a country in a serious energy crisis and we must react. React we must ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL because we tended to be too slow in the past. We tended GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): Ke a leboga to trust too much and believed that the entente cordiale Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ga ke na go will live forever. Unfortunately, this has not been the tsaya nako ya gago e ntsi Mmaetsho. Tota kgang ya me case with regard to the energy issue. We need this fela ke go ema Tona nokeng. Mme ke re, Mmaetsho, loan yesterday because it is yesterday when we should kana tiro e e ntseng jaana ya madi a a magosogoso jaana, have done what we want to do today. Load shedding tsholofelo ke gore tiro e fa e dirwa, ditiro di tlaa bonala is very unhealthy for the economy of the country. It mo bananeng. Mme mathata a re nang le one ke gore, ga has the potential to retard important undertakings for re ke re baakanyetsa dilo tse kwa pele, ke tsenya Tona the development of this country. It can even paralyse wa Thuto fa, re tla go thanya tiro e setse e simologa. Go any good intentions of any of our ministries. Today the bo go nna le batho ba ba bidiwang artisans. Kgantele re dark clouds hang over many of our villages, including bo re bona jaanong go tla batho ba merafe e sele fela, re Kanye. We need power in order to develop, in order to bolelelwa gore mo baneng ba rona ba Batswana, ga go give more energy to other sectors of development. na ba ba rutetsweng go dira tiro e e ntseng jalo. Malatsi a fa o ya ka fa Kanye ka fa, go tsogile khokhorokhokhoro I would like to warn that the stories that we often kwa Cut 8 kwa Jwaneng. Batho botlhe ba ba neng ba hear about roads that are left incomplete, about solofetse mebereko kwa Jwaneng, ba bolelelwa fa ba school projects that are sometimes not done properly, se na boitseanape jwa go dira ditiro tse di dirwang kwa this should not be case with this project. Excellent, Jwaneng. Jaanong e le gore go tsewa batho ba ba tswang exceptional supervision is key. Highly reputed kwa mafatsheng a sele. engineers who would undertake the project need to be found. Mistakes, Deo volente, as you would say, must Nna ke ne ke ka kopa Tona wa Thuto gore, a e re tiro not be given a chance. This project calls for enormous e e ise e simologe, a buisanye le ba rona ba technical amount of money that the nation is going to pay back colleges gore ba leke go dupa gore, go ya go batliwa in due course. It is, therefore, important that all due batho ba mofuta o o ntseng jang go dira tiro e ya attention is given to it. Morupule, re tle re monele marulana pele. Gongwe

196 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) e bo e le gore we start changing the courses in our nowhere in this information is it indicated, “Loan technical colleges. Re kgone go ruta bana ba rona, Agreement Signed”. No where, is it written here? gore e re fa tiro e ya go simologa, re bo re setse re ba “Loan Agreement Signed on date X”. So, I think he neetse dikitso tse re itseng gore fa ba eme ka certificate has to come and explain where he gets the information sa technical college ya rona fa kgorong ya Morupule, that the loan agreement is signed. ba tlaa hirwa go se na mathata. Go utlwisa botlhoko gore re bo re adima madi a a kanakana, mme e re kwa MADAM SPEAKER: No, he does not have the floor bofelelong jaanong e bo e le gore tota re diretse batho anymore Honourable Member. The floor is yours, just ba ba tswang kwa ntle ditiro, bana ba rona bone ba o conclude. ora fela wa mariga o se na lepai. MR MATAMBO: Let me then proceed Madam Chair Ke ne ke re ke a bue a le kalo Mmaetsho. Ke a because this is very serious. When it says, “Project leboga. Approval October 2009”, this is referring to project approval by the Directors of the Board of the African MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT Development Bank. Now I want to say, I was here on PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Thank you Madam this job in 2009. I would like to tell this nation through Speaker. Let me start indeed by not only thanking all this House that I personally had not signed any loan other Honourable Members for supporting this Bill, but agreement for which I am seeking authority today indeed I wish to extend my very sincere appreciation between October and this date. That is what I want to to Honourable Minister Kedikilwe who has responded say. Nor do I recall giving authority to anybody, because to all the technical queries about the project. That was I have to give that authority to sign that loan agreement. correct because he is the leader of the implementing That is why Madam Speaker we are here today for the agency for this project. So, I thank you Honourable purpose of seeking authority for this Parliament to allow Kedikilwe. the Minister of Finance or his representative to sign the loan. I want to make this very very clear Madam Chair. Madam Speaker, I want to start with the issue that was raised by Honourable Reatile. I do not want to be Madam Chair, that having been said, I would like to accused. take the opportunity in a few minutes to respond to one or two issues that were raised by Honourable Members. You will help me with procedure. I do not want to be Again I think Honourable Modubule had indicated that accused for imputing anything about anybody. But we had already raised the loan and so forth and so forth. I was going to say maybe that is why he is not here All I want to say is that, it is the responsibility, task, and because I want to really follow up this matter, it is very the duty of the Minister of Finance and Development serious. It is being implied that I have or someone has Planning that once you have approved the investment already signed the loan agreement for which we are programme in the National Development Plan and seeking authority. I want to say that earlier on when the annual budget which you approved a couple of he was referring me to page 3, I indeed went to page weeks ago to look for funding in order to implement 3. But then later on he said, “No, I meant III”, and at the projects that you have approved, that is what the that point I was unable to lay my fingers on page III. Minister of Finance has done. I would like to explain Now I have page III but he is not here. I do not know that when he says, “Approval”, it is in the same context what to do. But let me tell you, you remember he said when we approach possible sources of funding, in this that it is the last paragraph of that page. I am looking at case the African Development Bank (ADB). They the last paragraph of that page III. He told you that it is would also go to their Board to get approval of what we headed, “Time Frame, Main Milestones”. That is what have negotiated. I want to confirm this loan has been I am reading to and in bracket it says, “Expected”. That negotiated. That is why a management of ADB was is to say, “Time Frame, Main Milestones about the able to go to its Board of Directors to seek approval, Implementation of this Project (Expected)”. The first you see. That enables me once I know there is approval line is, “Concept Note Approval”, I think he said that to come here to seek approval of this House to sign. th thing, “27 May 2009”. Next is, “Project Approval”, Once I have signed or my representative has signed, and I will come back to say approval by who, “October then the loan becomes binding on Botswana. I have not 2009”. Then, “Effectiveness”, it says, “April 2010”, yet signed, the loan has not been signed. But once you this month, and I will tell you, effectiveness of what. agree, which I believe you will this afternoon and then st “Last Disbursement, 31 December 2013”, I think he the Bill becomes an Act. I am going to send somebody st read these dates. “Completion, 31 December 2012”, he to sign but today I have not signed. read these dates. “Last repayment, 30th January 2030”,

Hansard No 163 Part 4 197 Thursday 8th April, 2010 MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) - Second Reading (Resumed Debate) I think Honourable Masimolole yesterday made reference They should also be looking at budgets of other countries during the discussion on citizen economic empowerment. so that they can tender there if they have the capacity to I think he was inquiring about when we are going to get so. This is normal. That is why real businessmen here in the Policy on Citizen Economic Empowerment. I think Botswana are looking forward to go to Zimbabwe. It is that is a correct inquiry because in the Budget Speech I difficult to do business now but they go there to identify indicated that I hope to bring it here some point in time. I opportunities because they think things will be normal. can only say that I am afraid that it would still come but Once they are normal, they are going to do business there right now the document that I thought I could bring more and make money. That is what companies should do. quickly here, I realised that it needs a lot of updating. So, there is nothing wrong, Honourable Kwelagobe, and But ultimately it will have to come here once it has gone all members with companies overseas doing what they through the stage of the Cabinet. are doing about the budget of Botswana. I should say of course if our own companies could benefit more, we all Honourable Kwelagobe, again he is not here but of agreed. There is no doubt about that. course he is not running away from anything. Honourable Speaker, I think those were the main MADAM SPEAKER: He is here Honourable Member issues that were raised. But as I say, I do not know but even if he is not here you just answer, but he what the procedure is. I have made it on record happens to be here for a change. here that this agreement has not been signed. The MR MATAMBO: Yes, Honourable Kwelagobe. Honourable Member there has not indicated anywhere in the document that he was referring to where it says HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...Laughter.... the agreement has been signed. With that having been said Honourable Speaker, I now move that the Loan MR MATAMBO: Honourable Kwelagobe, I just want Authorisation Bill from the African Development Bank to confirm that I agree with yougore although I did cite for Morupule Power B Project, Bill No. 3 of 2010 be and proudly so, yesterday that the various instances read a second time. Thank you. when our own Batswana owned companies, were participating in these projects. I agree with you that Question put and agreed to. maybe the participation may not be as large. I do not want to say it is small because I was quoting big figures Committee Stage – Later today. yesterday, but I would agree that if we could increase ASSEMBLY IN COMMITTEE the scale of this participation, the orders of magnitude in terms of value, that indeed is all what we are aiming (CHAIRPERSON in the Chair) for. Honourable Kwelagobe again was saying, “kana when we approve Botswana government budget here, MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT people elsewhere in other countries are busy studying it (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) with the view to benefit from it”. I believe you mean the BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) companies all over the world. I would like to confirm MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT that there is nothing wrong with that, absolutely nothing (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN wrong with that. That is what the real business people do. AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) When we approve our budget here, all over, in Germany and elsewhere these people who have big contractors, MADAM CHAIR: On what clause, Honourable they look at the budget and they examine it carefully to Member? see what is it that they can benefit from it. Like I said MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT yesterday, they know we do not have all these equipment PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Clause 2. that we are looking for. They will start of course looking at the time when we are going to tender so that they can MADAM CHAIR: We will hear what you have to say tender to supply big equipment and be paid from these about Clause 2, Honourable Minister. loans. I would like to say, that is what so me Batswana business people also do. They look at this budget. Every Clause 1 – agreed to. time they are waiting for it, they are looking and saying, Clause 2 “where can we tender for, where can we tender for”. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT Now my advice is that, I want Batswana business people PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): I thank you very to stop being inward looking. They should emulate those much, Madam Chair. This relates to Clause 2 and it foreign business people. They should be outward looking.

198 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 BOTSWANA-MOZAMBIQUE DOUBLE TAXATION AVOIDANCE AGREEMENT ORDER, 2009 - Resolution will be the same plea with regard to Clause 2 of the MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT next Bill. We discussed this problem. I think you (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN might not have been here, Madam Chair, of the Pula AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) amount that is in the Bill. I think we agreed when (Minister of Finance and Development Planning) we were discussing another Bill on the principle of a smaller amendment on Section 2, which would be an MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT amendment immediately following the Pula amount (WORLD BANK) (LOAN AUTHORISATION) indicated there. The amendment would say something BILL, 2010 (NO. 2 OF 2010) like, “at the time of the preparation of the Bill”. That is (Minister of Finance and Development Planning) my proposed amendment, Madam Chair. PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR MADAM CHAIR: Thank you. He is moving an APPROXIMATELY 25 MINUTES amendment, Honourable Members. Be patient with the Honourable Minister, he is moving an amendment and BOTSWANA-MOZAMBIQUE DOUBLE it makes sense; without notice. TAXATION AVOIDANCE AGREEMENT ORDER, 2009 Amendment - agreed to. RESOLUTION Clause 2 as amended - agreed to. MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT Clause 3 to 6 - agreed to. PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Madam Speaker, I Bill reported from Committee with amendments. have the honour to present to this Honourable House, the Double Taxation Avoidance Agreement between Third Reading - forthwith. Botswana and Mozambique.

MORUPULE B POWER STATION PROJECT Section 53 of the Income Tax Act (CAP 52:01) empowers (AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK) (LOAN the Minister responsible for finance to, on behalf of AUTHORISATION) BILL, 2010 (NO. 3 OF 2010) Government, enter into an agreement with another country to prevent or mitigate double taxation and to Clause 1 – agreed to. render assistance of mutual benefit in the administration Clause 2 of income tax. In this regard, it now gives me pleasure to present the Double Taxation Avoidance Agreement, MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT which has been concluded with the authorities of the PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Thank you Republic of Mozambique. Honourable Chair for your indulgence. Indeed in respect of Clause 2, I move without notice the following Madam Speaker, the Double Taxation Avoidance amendment which should come immediately after the Agreement with Mozambique will ensure that Batswana amount in Pula therein. The amendment is, “at the time or Botswana companies doing business in Mozambique of the preparation of the Bill.” I thank you, Madam and Mozambicans or Mozambican companies doing Chair. business in Botswana are not subjected to tax on the same income that would have already have taxed in MADAM CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. It is an the country in which they do business. If that income is insertion but the insertion is an amendment. taxable in both countries, the country to which profits are repatriated gives credit for the tax paid in the Amendment - agreed to. country where the income was earned.

Clause 2 as amended - agreed to. Madam Speaker, double taxation of income and gains Clauses 3 to 6 - agreed to. arises when a resident of one country earns income in another country from business, services or employment Bill reported from Committee with amendments. carried out in the other country. Countries enter into agreements for avoidance of double taxation to agree Third Reading - forthwith. on how the income that is taxable in both countries will THIRD READINGS be taxed in order to remove or minimise subjection of such income to double taxation. Such Agreements also The following Bills were read a Third Time and facilitate close co-operation and address the problem passed: of international tax evasion and avoidance.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 199 Thursday 8th April, 2010 BOTSWANA-MOZAMBIQUE DOUBLE TAXATION AVOIDANCE AGREEMENT ORDER, 2009 - Resolution In the context of our efforts to establish Botswana The Agreement towards this issue incites if not create as an international financial service centre and the very good working relationships between the two innovation hug centre, among others, Double Taxation countries ka gore, any party deserves the right either Avoidance Agreements assume greater significance to chicken out or to review. Today we are talking since potential investors consider the existence of such about Mozambique and Botswana. Botswana deserves Agreements as a distinct advantage. Such Agreements the right to pull out any time of the Agreement and eliminate uncertainty about how their income will Mozambique deserves the right to bring any other be taxed. They also give multinational corporations topic into the Agreement. assurance that their income will not be subjected to tax both in the country where such income is earned and in HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… their home countries. MR MOATLHODI: Let me give you an example Madam Speaker, negotiation of the Agreement between ngwana wa ga nkgonne as a learned accountant. If you go Botswana and Mozambique was necessary for the to South Africa and then you get…(interruptions)…My following reasons: apologies, they are leading me into temptation and yet they cannot deliver me from the evil. What I am talking a) There is a possibility of growth in trade between the about is technical services. If a learned young man of your two countries because of the recent power purchase caliber goes to Mozambique and he gets employed… agreement of 2008 between the two countries. MR KWELAGOBE: On a point of clarification, b) The Agreement opens up possibilities for mutual Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, mo Palamenteng cooperation in the prevention of tax evasion mo, re na le maina le plate numbers tse di beilweng or avoidance and fraud by providing for the fa di tshotse maina. Jaanong, ga re batle motho a exchange of information about taxpayers and tax re bolelela gore, o na le ngwana wa ga mogolowe transactions. fa. Ngwana wa ga mogolowe ke mang? We are all Honourable Members. c) Further, the Agreement will bring assistance in collection of tax between the two countries. MADAM SPEAKER: Ke go boleletse Honourable Member, tsena mo molaong. Madam Speaker, the Double Taxation Avoidance Agreement between Botswana and Mozambique MR MOATLHODI: Thank you very much Madam will take effect on ratification by this Honourable Speaker. I think I have made my point about that House. It will then enter into force on the latest of technical services ngwana wa ga mogolole. the notifications of the completion of ratification procedures by authorities in each country. MR D. SALESHANDO: Ke kopa tlhaloso, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Thank you Madam Speaker, I move that this Honourable House Madam Speaker. I want the Honourable Member resolves that the Botswana-Mozambique Double to explain what he means when he says that one; Taxation Avoidance Agreement Order, 2009, which Botswana has the right to chicken out or opt out of the was published in the Botswana Gazette dated 19th Agreement; and secondly, that Mozambique also has a June 2009 as Statutory Instrument No. 50 of 2009, and right to introduce anything new to the Agreement. which was laid before the National Assembly on the 18th February, 2010, be approved. Thank you. I can understand the part about opting out. Any Agreement would obviously have an exit clause. Is it the Member’s MR MOATLHODI (TONOTA SOUTH): You will understanding that after approving this Agreement, realise Madam Speaker that as a former Standard Mozambique is allowed to introduce any other things that Bank employee, any stories pertaining to tax remain were not party to the Agreement that we are sanctioning passionate to me. Therefore, I feel very much obliged now? That is really the explanation that I think you should to contribute to this debate this afternoon. Madam make to the House when you say, we have an option to Speaker, you will realise that the topic on the table exit the Agreement and Mozambique has the option to today is a very good incentive to lure investors into bring anything as they want into the Agreement. this country. When investors plan or intend coming to invest into this great Republic, they shall be in a very MR MOATLHODI: You got me very well Honourable clear position gore in Botswana we shall not have all Member for Gaborone Central. I will still get stuck to the monies collected by Government unduly; we have the issue about Mozambicans working in Botswana, guidelines. coming here to offer their services as architects. When

200 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 BOTSWANA-MOZAMBIQUE DOUBLE TAXATION AVOIDANCE AGREEMENT ORDER, 2009 - Resolution they are here to do architectural work, Botswana Housing be sure that after such and such a time, monies shall Corporation (BHC) pays them money and when they do have accrued. Madam Speaker, I support the Bill. so, obviously this side Botswana Government hammers them with tax. When they go back to Mozambique, MR GOYA (PALAPYE): Thank you very much Mozambique Government says, “Oh! Hang on a second, Madam Speaker. I stand to support the Minister’s we realise these gentlemen were being paid some monies proposal that he has brought to this House. I believe in the form of offering their technical services. Can we that Parliament is an institution that is supposed to get to know how much taxes you collected from them?” initiate, pass and approve laws that should enhance the Then we say, “Oh! Yes, in this great Republic of Botswana lives of people. I have every reason to believe that the we have been charging them 25 per cent, whereas in proposals that the Minister has brought to this House Mozambique they are charging them 27 per cent.” Then will, if given the nod and green light by this House, they say, “Ok! The difference is two per cent. It means they will add value to the lives of Batswana. you architects owe us two per cent.” That is exactly what Botswana and Mozambique share a lot of things in I mean and take into account that I am a former Standard common. Firstly here in Botswana we hold multi-party Bank employee. I still have banking bubbling into my elections and Mozambique emulated us by holding its heart and head. You got it now well cleared my boy? first ever multi-party elections in 1994. Here in Botswana, MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Member, there are our major export commodity is minerals (diamond) and no boys here. minerals contribute almost a third of our Gross Domestic Product (GDP). In Mozambique they are heavily MR MOATLHODI: My deepest apologies Morena dependent on aluminium as their major export commodity wa me yo ke mo ratang thata, my Speaker in whom I and aluminium contributes a third of that country’s GDP, am so well pleased. that is, the purchasing power parity. Here in Botswana, our Services Sector contributes about 45 per cent of our When we talk about double taxation Honourable GDP (purchasing power parity). In Mozambique, their Dumelang Saleshando, we talk about people’s lives, Services Sector also contributes in the same rate as here incomes, dividends and any other type of monies in Botswana. So these are the very few denominators that that have been accruing overtime. As a responsible we and Mozambique share in common. Government; we need to tap from these monies in the form of taxes. We must be rest assured; all these monies What is of interest and very fascinating to me is that that get tapped from people in the form of taxes, are Mozambique’s Agricultural Sector plays a very monies that get accrued to Government and Government important role in that country. It employs about 81 per can be rest assured that definitely we have income at a cent of the workforce in the country and this in totally certain period that will be coming from such and such a different from our experience here in Botswana. Again in levy, at such and such a time, our consolidated funds shall Mozambique, their Agricultural Sector contributes a lot balloon up. The good part about this issue on the table to that country’s GDP, whereas ours does not contribute today is that we are making sure that people should not that much. So I would want to believe that by approving be taxed twice. When I talk about taxing people twice, the proposal that the Minister has brought to this House, Honourable Speaker, I think of the story about the Lord it will actually entice Batswana to go and invest in Jesus Christ when he was by the Sea of Galilee. He was Mozambique and Mozambicans to come and invest in roving his boat and many people came to him and said, this country. With the full knowledge and understanding “Master, by the way I am doing such and such a job” and that there will be some rewards in the form of taxes as the tax collector came to him and said, “Master, as a tax the Minister has alluded to. So that is the reason why collector, what about my responsibility?” and the Lord I am saying that I do support the proposal that the Jesus Christ said to him, “go and collect your tax but Minister has brought to this House. It will go a long way do not collect more.” Double taxation obviously ensures in improving the lives of Batswana in this country. that we do not collect more taxes from the people. MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of Clarification. HONOURABLE MEMBER: O tshwarwa ke mowa Thank you Madam Speaker, I just want to appreciate jaanong? from my colleague. Earlier on he indicated that there are quite a number of commonalities which he stated and MR MOATLHODI: This is a very good subject, even moved to agriculture. That is where I really got closest to my heart and as dear to me as are the ruddy lost. If you could clarify the question of how the 81 per drops that visit my sad heart. I have already emphasised cent of contribution to employment is a commonality on the point of reliable funds that the Government can to our situation in Botswana

Hansard No 163 Part 4 201 Thursday 8th April, 2010 BOTSWANA-MOZAMBIQUE DOUBLE TAXATION AVOIDANCE AGREEMENT ORDER, 2009 - Resolution MR GOYA: Thank you very much Madam Speaker. Mozambique is one of the potential countries, the land Thank you very much Honourable Member for there is evidently enormous and some parts with very Shoshong. What I am trying to say is that we as a rains. Obviously they may wish to augment the supply country and Batswana, we can learn from the experience of feed into their mills from Mozambique. Therefore, of Mozambicans. Their Agricultural Sector is actually that would mean they might be operating both in contributing a lot to employment of Mozambicans in Mozambique and Botswana and of course other possible that country. So Batswana can learn a lot from how avenues of economic pursuit. Therefore the Double Mozambicans benefitted from that. That is why I was Taxation Agreement as the Honourable Minister has bringing in that point of agriculture contributing a lot indicated will be facilitative of such operations. Such to the GDP of that country. that they would avoid taxing twice (both in Mozambique and in Botswana). I wanted to move on to say that we should encourage Batswana to enter into business relationships with The other potential is the development of hydropath. entrepreneurs from Mozambique. By so doing, we as Phase one of the Cabora Bassa is an enormous a country will also be enhancing the bilateral relations undertaking. Some 53 billion cubic metres of water, that already exist between Mozambique and Botswana. the present Cabora Bassa (that 53 billion cubic metres We will also be trying to foster the regional integration compared to our largest 400 million cubic metres that Southern African Development Community Dikgatlhong). In comparison with that is a drop in (SADC) is advocating for in the whole SADC region. the ocean. Of course our own is our own; we have to contend at least for the time being with that. The With those few remarks Madam Speaker, I do support point one is making is that apart from the present Phase the Minister’s proposal. Thank you One of Cabora Bassa, there is a Second Phase which MINISTER OF MINERALS, ENERGY AND is probably going to be larger or the same level as the WATER RESOURCES (MR KEDIKILWE): Madam Cabora Bassa Phase One. What one foresees is that Speaker, I wish to thank you and indicate in supporting because one of our aims, I would hope ultimately we my Honourable colleague, Minister of Finance and would want to reduce our unit cost of power by blending Development Planning, that I do not intend to repeat the both our thermal generation with the hydro generated good points he has made, relating to why we need Double power from Mozambique. Therefore hopefully reduce Taxation Agreement with the country of Mozambique. the unit cost. One would have thought that we might, Except to indicate that as a land locked country, the through the likes and it is my wish, the likes of BDC issue of enlightened self interest arises. Whether it have an investment or do an investment in Mozambique is Mozambique or Namibia, it is important that we on the Second phase of Cabora Bassa; straight forward establish avenues of imports and export alternative investment in terms of money (shareholding). One routes. Mozambique has almost 3 000 kilometres of would have thought that there is a possibility that as in coast line; very good ports, some of them quite deep. fact our initial discussions merely sending feelers with That is important for us in that as we develop resources my opposite number in Mozambique on the energy in this country, including mineral and enormous coal side to say as and when Phase Two of Cabora Bassa deposits, there are thoughts and considerations for links comes up, would they consider investments from all by rail. It is evident that subsidiary industries will arise over, including the possibilities in Botswana. out of the developments and our linkage. Even without They said, “yes there is that possibility”. One linkage with Mozambique, the linkage, whether is rail or foresees that, if for example, we were to use the road, will be facilitative of doing work in that country. arm of Government called Botswana Development I recently have occasion to travel in Mozambique, Corporation (BDC) in this country, there is also a particularly the Tete Province by road. Potential is possibility that given the size of that project, there could enormous. I can foresee a situation where Batswana be some window for Batswana through shareholding, as we develop, there will be outward looking and may to also participate. Therefore the question of earning wish to have industries, whether it is from the secondary income from Mozambique arises. product, agricultural or agro business and milling. For I think this question of opening up a window through example, the projects that were are contemplating in the collective efforts of Batswana, and participating in Pandamatenga; I can foresee some local companies of a company that is going to be formed potentially on Batswana setting up mills. They will have to learn the Cabora Bassa Phase Two, offers a real opportunity for ropes and they would want to consider other possible us. I would have thought that time is now and nay that sources of supply of stock or feed onto their mills. we are outward-looking, in order to augment our own

202 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 BOTSWANA-MOZAMBIQUE DOUBLE TAXATION AVOIDANCE AGREEMENT ORDER, 2009 - Resolution resources and income here. That is a great advantage in Earlier on when Honourable Goya made his contribution looking at Mozambique, it is much nearer, and therefore he did highlight the potential that is presented by the those who may have enterprises both in Botswana Agricultural Sector in Mozambique. Basically to and Mozambique, will not have to travel long-long say, there are certain things that we can learn from distances or long hours in order to get there. the Mozambicans, given the extent to which their Agricultural Sector has grown. I do agree with him. There is also the potential for an avenue through which But also just to reinforce that point, that for example we could import oil. In fact discussions, let alone the country of Mozambique, has a very big industry of power as I said, through at least some portions through fertilizers. I think through this agreement that is being Mozambique and South Africa, that is a potential. But put before us, it presents an opportunity for Batswana oil is also possible avenue for transporting fuels from to negotiate partnerships with Mozambicans, because or through Mozambique, and in some cases using their of the expertise that they already have in the Fertilizer ports, so there is potential. Therefore the possibilities of Industry. Such that those industries for example can the downstream or retail operations here using companies now come to Botswana, so that as Botswana we will no in Mozambique, that is a life potential. Therefore the longer have to import fertilizers. At least we do have a question of double taxation is a definite possibility. successful case study from the Mozambicans.

I think Batswana, I suppose also the people of I just wanted to appeal Madam Speaker, that as I support Mozambique, and the enormous agricultural potential this proposal that is being put before us, that we do all is among other things what we ought to be looking at. we can to unpack various opportunities that are available In our case, the advantage would be that if some of our for trade to be undertaken between our two countries. companies were to operate on the agricultural side in I do appreciate the contribution made by Honourable Mozambique, the potential for cattle or stock feed, is Kedikilwe and Honourable Goya in this particular item. I enormous. Let alone other possibilities for foodstuffs. just wanted to appeal that more work be done to unpack But for stock feed for example, in agriculture, that all these opportunities at various levels. Be it at Small, would be quite progressive, forward-looking and Medium and Micro Enterprises (SMMEs) level or at a enormous in ensuring that we augment the potential much larger scale level. I am also happy that this proposal of our own land here. So that we ensure that there comes before us at a time when we have approved the are alternatives that would ensure our survival as a Trade Policy for this great country. I hope that also landlocked country. Spurs piece of land, some of it not reinforces the need or rather expand the opportunities that so attractive in terms of agriculture. So we just thought exist for trade between these two countries. one would point out insurance that the motion before us, facilitates the enormous potential that one foresees. Finally, I just want to make an appeal that as this request I would like to thank you Madam Speaker. for double taxation between the two countries is being approved, there has to be concerted efforts Honourable MR MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): I thank Kgathi, to ensure that people are educated on what you Madam Speaker. I rise to support the request as specific opportunities are being presented by this presented by the Honourable Minister for the approval positive development. I thank you Madam Speaker. of the Botswana-Mozambique Double Taxation Avoidance Agreement. MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Minister of Finance and Development Planning, would you like to I think as colleagues have already indicated, Botswana thank your colleagues for their support, and move? and Mozambique do share a lot in common. Colleagues have already highlighted areas of commonality. But I MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT just want to add that among other things, there is the PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Precisely Madam fact that both of us are members of Southern African Speaker. Thank you. I just want to thank all Honourable Development Community (SADC). We are also part Members for supporting this motion. I would like to of the Interim Economic Partnership Agreement. recognise in particular, and commend the Honourable Indeed ourselves and Mozambique, were amongst Member of Parliament for Tonota South, Mokhurutshi, the first countries that initialled the Interim Economic for his obviously very clear understanding of Double Partnership Agreement. I think it is important that Taxation Avoidance Agreement. we enhance our collaboration and partnership with Mozambique. The proposal before us serves to enhance Madam Speaker, I now move that the Mozambique- the already positive relationship that exists between Botswana Double Taxation Avoidance Agreement Botswana and Mozambique. Order, 2009, which was published as Statutory

Hansard No 163 Part 4 203 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

Instrument No.50 of 2009 and which was laid before be halted. The process can be halted at some point if the National Assembly on the 18th February, 2010 be this House agrees with a motion that will now come as approved. I thank you Madam Speaker. a normal motion.

Question put and agreed to. I stand here Honourable Raletobana, to apologise that you were led through the dark path and I rule that we TRANSFER OF RESPONSIBILITY FOR stop this debate here and now. Thank you. HEALTH CARE TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL Motion YOUTH

(Resumed Debate) Motion

MADAM SPEAKER (DR NASHA): Honourable (Resumed Debate) Members, please lend me your ears. First of all I want to say we included the motions on the Order Paper. MR MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): Ke a Like I said yesterday, in case we save some minutes, leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke we can move on and cover as much ground as we boammaaruri e ne ya re ka di 19th March 2010, pele possibly can. ga ke tla ke sutela mokaulengwe Raletobana fa a tla ka mogopolo o a neng a re o beile pele wa tshoganetso, The first motion is, “That this Honourable House o ke neng ke mo ema nokeng mo go one, ke ne ke requests Government to hold in abeyance the transfer setse tota ke buile mabaka a me. O tlaa gakologelwa of responsibility for health care from the Ministry of Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente gore kgang e Local Government to the Ministry of Health pending ke ne gape ka e tlisa ka di 4th December 2009. Mme consultations with stakeholders.” Before I say anything ra felela re dumalane nako ya teng gore ke ye go or open the floor I want to say this, I spoke to the baakanya mogopolo ke ntshe dilo dingwe. Ke ne ke Honourable mover of the motion this morning, just to setse e rile fa ke e fa mafoko a go kopa kemo nokeng find out what the intention was. He did say that the mo bakaulengweng ka di 19th March 2010, ke ne ke ba intention was that this motion should be proceeded supegeditse gore kana fa re re re ye go batla kwa banana with. I did a bit of research, I also after that looked at the ba ba seng mo sekoleng ba leng teng, maikaelelo ke Hansard to see what transpired at the time the motion gore re bo re ba botse le gore ba ka thusiwa jang go was brought to the House. I found out that the motion itokafaletsa matshelo. Ke amogela gore Motlotlegi was brought to the House under Standing Order No.40. Tona wa Banana, Metshameko le Ngwao, Tona Kgathi, Now Standing Order No.40 which was correctly quoted o setse a supile gore o na le dingwe dipalo tsa gore by the Speaker then says, “that such matters of urgent banana ba kae ba e leng gore ga ba mo dikoleng. and definite national importance, can be brought to the House.” That is the condition under which he brought Kgang ya me e tona ke gore, e re ntswa kitso ya teng the motion, and it was accepted. What I then found e ka tswa e le teng le fa e sa tlhomama, ka gore e rile out was that the same Standing Order No.40 (3) (c) maloba ke mmoditse potso e nngwe gore banana ba specifically says that such a debate shall be restricted kae mo Shoshong Constituency yotlhe ba ba leng to two hours. I noted with regret that this motion was out of school, e bile empowerment requirements tsa allowed to be debated beyond two hours. bone ke eng, o ne a seka a kgona le go ntlhalosetsa ka Shoshong Constituency ka bophara. A mpolelela ka That is in contravention of the Standing Orders. Now Shoshong Village fela, a seka a kgona le go mpolelela Honourable Members will appreciate that two wrongs gore mme banana ba, ba ka tswa ba na le keletso ya do not make a right, that was a mistake. In any case, gore ba thusiwe go dira eng. the 1st of April has come and gone. So the assumption is that of course the transfer process has started in Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke dumela earnest. Therefore the urgency is no longer there. gore tiro e re a e tlhoka. E ka fefosa go tlhabolola ba e Really I wanted to first and foremost just appeal to you leng gore they are out of school young people. Maloba to say we made a mistake. I regret that the mistake was fa re kgaogana Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, made, but we should go the right way. In other words, ke ne ke setse tota ke tsamaela go ya go wela. Mme we really should not discuss this motion. The option bakaulengwe; Motlotlegi Tsogwane, Motlotlegi that remains to the Honourable Member Raletobana Mmolotsi le Motlotlegi Reatile, ba e leng gore botlhe is that he could then go back and re-draft a motion, ga ba yo fa, ba ne ba nkopile dingwe ditlhaloso tse ke because taking the primary health care back to the neng ke re e re gongwe e re ke wela, ke di fe. Ministry of Local Government can still be done, it can

204 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

Motlotlegi Reatile o ne a boditse gore a mme tiro e eme nokeng. Therefore for them to be able to support ya go dira a tracer study ga e kake ya tura. Ke re ke you convincingly, ke gore ba go utlwe sentle gore wa dirile dipatlisiso, mme ke bone gore go ka dirisiwa reng. So exercise some patience in all this. methodologies tse di farologaneng. Nngwe ya methodologies e ka nna gore bone banana ba gongwe MR MAKGALEMELE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa ba ka ya go fa information ya teng kwa dikgotleng, Dipuisanyo sa Palamente. Mme kana ke ntse ke dira Village Development Committees (VDCs) le kwa jalo... youth officers ba leng gautshwane teng, fa di ofisi di ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND leng teng mo constituencies. Jaaka e le gore kgabagare SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): On maikaelelo ke gore, constituency nngwe le nngwe e a point of clarification Madam Speaker.Ke a go leboga nne le youth officers. Go ka dirisiwa e-mails ba e leng Madam Speaker, ke ne ke re ke kope tlhaloso mo go gore ba kgona go di dira, jaaka e bile e le gore lephata Honourable Member of Parliament for Shoshong. Gore, la ga Rre Kgathi ka mogopolo wa libraries, malatsi a ga ke itse gongwe ke nna ke sa mo utlwang sentle, fa a mogopolo ke gore go tle go nne le e-mails. re bana ba e leng gore ba bangwe they have dropped HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke kopa tlhaloso. out of school. Jaanong ke re a tlhalose, gore e tle e re fa re tsena mo motion, re o tlhaloganye gore a fa a re MR MAKGALEMELE: Go ka dirisiwa bo call out of school youth, does he include school dropouts? centres gore information e kgone go goroga. Jaanong Ke gore ke mafoko a a neng a a bua. Ke re a tlhalose metlhale e mentsi e ke dumelang gore e ka dirisiwa, e e gore mo mogopolong wa gagwe fa a re out of school, ka sekeng e re turele thata gore information e re kgone does he include le school dropouts? go e batla. Mme ke re kgang ya cost e e neng e bodiwa ke Mokaulengwe Reatile, ga ke bone e ka nna selo se MR MAKGALEMELE: Ke a leboga Motlotlegi se ka re babalelang thata. Rakhudu. Mogopolo wa me o ne o itebagantse le gore kana fa re lebile banana in the context ya the National Potso e nngwe e ne e le gore yone mme tracer study Youth Policy, re lebeletse batho ba dingwaga di leng e fa re e dira, re ya go e dira for which period. Ke re, 12 go tsena kwa go 29. Jaanong ke tseela gore gone mogopolo wa bana ba ba out of school ba ke eletsang mo go 12 to 29 years, re ka fitlhela e le gore go na le gore re ba target, ke banana ba ba dingwaga di le lesome school dropouts mo teng. Ka jalo... le boferabobedi go tsena kwa dingwageng di le masome a mabedi le boferabongwe, ke gore 18 to 29 years. Fa re MADAM SPEAKER: I believe we are in danger of lebeletse gore gompieno re mo ngwageng wa 2010, bone losing our quorum Honourable Kesupile, please wait a bana bao gongwe re lebeletse a period of about 11 years. second. Thank you.

Jaanong mogoplo wa me e ne e le gore tracer study MR MAKGALEMELE: Ka jalo go raya gore le bone th e fa re e dira, gongwe re ka nna ra boela fa morago ba ka nna mo teng. Fa ke rola mogopolo gone ka di 19 dingwaga di le lesome kana di le lesome le motso. March 2010 Rre Rakhudu, ke ne ke supile gore, kana Di ne di ka re fa a very good base fa gore re itse bone bana ba, ba e leng gore they are out of school, gore seemo ke eng, e bile bana bao as at 2010 ba kae. bangwe ba bone gongwe e kare fa re tla re ba botsa, e bo Maikaelelo a bone a gore ba ka tokafadiwa matshelo e le ba ba santseng ba re nnyaa, rona gore re tokafatse ke eng, re bo re ka gatela kwa pele. Go tswa foo re bo re matshelo re eletsa fela gore gongwe re thusiwe re boele dira gore e re mo isagong, dikgaolo ka go farologana, gape mo sekoleng. Re ka ba busetsa mo sekoleng ka di VDC di tshwaragane le diofisi tsa mapalamente. E ditsela tse dintsi. Go na le bo Botswana College of bo e le gore ngwaga le ngwaga ba nne ba leka go sala Distance and Open Learning (BOCODOL), re ka ba morago bana ba ba tlogelang sekolo, ba e leng gore tsenya mo dithulaganyong tsa BOCODOL gore ba dire they remain out of school gore re tle re bone gore re ka distance learning. Bangwe ba bone ba ka nna ba re re ka ba tokafatsa jang. Ke tlaa fa mokaulengwe, o ne a batla go tokafatsa maduo gape, gongwe re boele into the batlile go botsa sengwe. mainstream ya education. Bangwe ba bone ba ka nna ba re, nnyaa rona re batla gore re thusiwe to benefit mo MADAM SPEAKER: I am not going to allow that mananeong a ministry wa ga Rre Kgathi. Jaaka bo Youth anymore, you have taken too long, proceed. Development Fund, re tsene mo dikgwebong jalo, jalo.

MR MAKGALEMELE: Mme ke re ke wela... It is a broad exercise e e leng gore e tlaa bo e itebagantse le banana ba e leng gore they are in that category. MADAM SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Member, Ke ne ke re fa ke wela Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa just let me hazard a piece of advice. Kana bo Honourable Palamente, ke re ke kopa kemo nokeng ya bakaulengwe Member ba jaaka o baya motion o, o batla gore ba go

Hansard No 163 Part 4 205 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

gore thulaganyo e, re a e tlhoka gore re tle re oketse, a) Government mechanisms for coordination and re bo re fefose go tlhabolola matshelo a banana mo implementation of youth affairs. The major lefatsheng la Botswana. Ke a leboga. functions of these mechanisms will also be as follows; MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE (MR KGATHI): Madam Speaker, we have been on i) To develop and review policy on matters related this motion for long. First it came in a different form, to youth. it was withdrawn and altered. Now it is coming again more or less in a similar form but still talking about... ii) To promote collaborative relevant ministries.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... iii) To design and maintain effective interface.

MR KGATHI: Not necessarily similar, you are iv) To initiate, conduct and distribute research and right because the time when we refused this motion, information related to youth affairs and youth it had a concoction of issues that were clouding the programmes in Botswana.” motion, hence making it very difficult for us to accept. The point I would like to emphasize is that, this very Today this motion is before this House still calling Parliament has agreed and endorsed this policy, which this Honourable House to agree to undertake a tracer among other things had said the ministry should study. I would like to pronounce to this House that I do go and initiate, conduct and distribute research and not agree with the motion on very simple and straight information. Then there is no point to come here forward grounds. again and repeat the same thing that this Parliament Madam Speaker, I want this nation to understand that has endorsed. That is the first point that I really want in dissecting the motion for people to understand, the to emphasize to say, what the Honourable Member is keywords in this motion relates to the words like plight. asking for, is what this Parliament has already told In terms of the definition of the dictionary, plight refers the ministry responsible for Youth Affairs to go and to condition, state, especially an unfortunate condition. do. Over and above that, the Honourable Member is The other keyword relating to this is the word tracer, asking me to go and do a tracer study. which means investigating, ascertaining, finding MR MABILETSA: Ke kopa tlhaloso. Ke a leboga Mr or searching for information and unearthing that Speaker. Ke ne ke re ke botse Tona ka gore motion o ga information. The reason why I say I do not agree with o tle la ntlha, mme o tla in a different form, wa ntlha o ne this motion and I would like to convince this House not o kile wa leka go bua le mosutisi wa one. Ke re, ke eng to agree with this motion is because the Honourable o ne o sa leke sone se o neng wa se dira pele, ka gore e Member is requesting for what is already happening. kete tota ga o ise o ko o tloge o dumalana le one from the If we come to this Parliament and adopt a National beginning? Mme mabaka a o a buang gompieno, ke mo Youth Policy, which among other things instructs and o ka bong gongwe o kile wa a buisanya le ene, la bona gives you what to do, then we do not need to come gore you strike compromise fa kae. to this Honourable House to repeat the same thing after adopting the National Youth Policy. If you take Ke a leboga. for example, quoting from the National Youth Policy MR KGATHI: Thank you Mr Speaker. Kana each and Madam Speaker, on Page 24 where it says the National every Honourable Member here is entitled to bring the Youth Policy of 1996, starting off from Page 23, motion, whether it makes sense or it does not make permission Madam Speaker to paraphrase and quote. sense. MADAM SPEAKER: Granted, are you quoting or are HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa, ga go tualo. you paraphrasing? You cannot do both. MR KGATHI: No, no, no, I am developing a point, MR KGATHI: I am quoting Madam Speaker, where can you listen? Se ke se buang ka re, I cannot go and he is talking about the implementation mechanisms. I force the Honourable Member to withdraw or alter the am confused here Madam Speaker. motion. But what we have done, I have pointed out MADAM SPEAKER: Do you want to quote to him that the way the motion was crafted from the Minister? beginning, will not see the light of day in Parliament and we agreed, hence he withdrew the motion. Even MR KGATHI: It is talking about mechanisms and then, I mentioned that this motion is not asking for under these mechanisms Madam Speaker, it says; “ anything new.

206 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR MAKGALEMELE: Point of clarification. Thank ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND you Mr Speaker. I just want to clarify, well, first to say, SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): by the Honourable Minister to say whether it makes On a point of procedure Mr Speaker and my friend on sense or not, I think he is imputing improper motives the floor. I stand on a point of procedure fela gore re but that beside the point. What I want to clarify is thusanye ka gore fa gongwe procedure e a re tsietsa. that, when the motion was debated in December and Kana Honourable Makgalemele is not on the floor. ultimately, I do not know whether withdrawn was Jaanong I do not see how Honourable Member for South the right word, I know that some word was used as East South can elucidate on that point. He could only per the advice of Rre Thebenala. The same Minister, elucidate on his point if that member was holding the myself and Honourable Motlhale, we redrafted the floor but Honourable Makgalemele stood only to make motion but at the time when Honourable Motlhale some clarification, when the substantive holder of the presented the redrafted or the amended motion, it floor is the Minister. So, perhaps Honourable Motlhale if was realised that there were some major amendments he wanted to elucidate on what Honourable Makgalemele to the motion, hence the withdrawal for the lack of said, he has to wait until Honourable Makgalemele is on a better word. At the time the Minister had agreed the floor, unless if I really do not understand, in which with us on that, so this clearly demonstrates that the case ke tlaa bo ke sa go direle sentle. Minister is not loyal. MR SPEAKER: Yes, I could not agree more with HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is not acting in Honourable Rakhudu. Yes, Honourable Motlhale, indeed good faith. if you were doing that, you were not very correct. I want to use very mild adjectives on you as an Honourable MR MAKGALEMELE: Yes, he is not acting in good Member of Parliament. Honourable Minister, I think the faith; I think that is the word that I was looking for. ball bounces back to your good self. Nevertheless, I still feel that the motion is important for the young people of this country and I will respond MR KGATHI: Thank you Mr Speaker. I was at a point accordingly. where I want to convince this House not to agree with this motion. My argument is as follows, the motion is MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, I do not know what is calling on me or this government to go and undertake it that I have to be loyal about. All I was saying was a tracer study which I have made through a definition that, in response to question ya ga Rre Mabiletsa, to say it refers to the plight, being the condition. I guided that asking for indigenous skills and all Assuming we do a tracer study in May, there are those those things that were there, which I am saying young people who are unemployed, who have finished was a concoction which was making difficulty in from college and as at that time they are unemployed accepting this motion and hence it was not accepted. and we develop a strategy on the basis of the statistics So, it was not my motion, some withdrawal had to that we have got at that time. In a few months time be done by somebody and once it was withdrawn, or the following year, or whatever time because it has now come in this format and I am still saying somebody asked a very pertinent question, how many I do not agree with this motion, I will demonstrate tracer studies are we going to do? The plight of those why I am not. young people has completely changed; they have now MR MOTLHALE: Point of clarification. been admitted to the university. As at the time of the study, they were recorded to be unemployed, not in MR SPEAKER (MR MOATLHODI): Order! Order! school and so on and so forth. Now, these are pertinent In all fairness, before Honourable Motlhale comes questions that Honourable Members are asking, to say, to the floor, I just want to appeal to you Honourable how many tracer studies are we going to do, what is the Members of Parliament. Whatever the fate of the cost implication? motion is going to be, let us please address each other with dignity, respect and pomp with the decorum, ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL Standing Order 47 (a), let us address each other with AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION the decorum that befits this House and I am saying it (MR M.E MASISI): Point of clarification. Thank from the religious point of view. you Mr Speaker and thank you Honourable Member for yielding. In my reading of the motion, it seemed MR MOTLHALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I just that the mover is interested in the study informing wish to elucidate on the point raised by the Honourable us more on the plight of those young people and the mover of the motion that indeed we discussed with the empowerment requirements only, period. So, I thought Honourable Minister to see how best we can. we would need to clarify gore programmes di availed.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 207 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR SPEAKER: We cannot both stand. Right, I was many young people has already been ascertained. This actually advising you Honourable Kgathi to be seated is the reason why I am saying I want to convince this while Honourable Masisi was still holding the floor. It House not to agree with this motion because what my appears Honourable Masisi is done. Honourable Member is asking for is already in place. Probably if the motion was framed in another way, then I MR KGATHI: Of course in terms of the definition of would understand. In principle, the idea of a tracer study the Youth Policy, the plight refers to the condition under or getting as much frequent information as possible is which young people find themselves in and I was going okay. In the context of this, I am merely saying that to go in to illustrate all those that have been identified the very same Policy that this Honourable House has by the Youth Policy on the basis of the statistics that was endorsed, has already asked us to go and do that. With taken as at the time when the policy was defined and respect to plight, we have already investigated. in accordance with what the Central Statistics Office (CSO) gives in terms of information at that time. If you look at Page 4 of the National Youth Policy, Paragraph 5 under definition of a young person, it MR GOYA: On a point of clarification. Ke a leboga goes on to say, with your permission to quote, “The Mr Speaker le Honourable Kgathi. Honourable Kgathi, National Youth Policy also recognises that not all kgantele o ne o tshwere bukana e tala e o neng o re young people are the same. Where some young people balela mo go yone. Fa o re balela mo go yone jaana, o are at school or training institutions, others are not; ne o kare o tlhalosa gore se Motlotlegi Makgalemele where some are engaged in employment, others are a se kopang Ntlo e, o kare ke dilo tse e leng gore unemployed; there are young people in rural and urban bukana e o neng o e re balela ele, e setse e itebagantse environments; whilst some live with their parents, le tsone, tse e leng gore Motlotlegi Makgalemele o a others are themselves parents; some young people are di batla. Gongwe o ne o ka re bolelela gore dikgato disabled whilst others have been the victims of abuse or tse le di dirang ka kwa mabapi le se se lebaganyeng mistreatment.” On the basis of knowledge that young le se Motlotlegi Makgalemele a se kopang ke di fe? people are not a homogenous group and statistics that Gongwe fa o ka di balolola o ka thusa Motlotlegi was whereupon this Policy relied on in programming Makgalemele gore le ene a tle a tlhaloganye. A bone the strategies to intervene. In terms of problems or the gore tota go boammaaruri se e leng gore o leka go kopa plight for the young people, this Policy has come up Ntlo e gore e se dire le setse le tsere kgato ya gore le with several programmes to say this is what has to dire dithulaganyo tsa go nna jalo, tse e leng gore o leka happen. If you look again on the same Policy, on Page go re di kopa. Ke a leboga. 6 it now talks about the conditions affecting young MR KGATHI: Thank you Mr Speaker. The point people in Botswana, which is the plight. It indicates that Honourable Goya is making reference to which I them as follows; it refers to young people in education quoted from the Policy was that, in terms of procedure, and training and also gives us statistics. what Honourable Makgalemele is asking for has As I said in December, the Ministry of Education and already been done and passed by this Parliament. This Skills Development has information. I have a copy Parliament has said, “The Ministry responsible for the of young people here aged 12 to 14, currently out of youth, go and undertake research and findings, and on school by academic training. This statistics is available the basis of that, use it to plan and programme for young in the Ministry of Education. This is the very same thing people”. That is the point I was making reference to. that my Honourable Member is saying I should go and I was now coming to the point… do and I am saying no. I do not need to go and do it because it is already there. I know the number of young MR MAKGALEMELE: Point of clarification. Thank people aged 12 to 14 because the definition of young you Mr Speaker and Honourable Minister. I just want people starts from 12 to 29. I can categorically go and to appreciate gore in the spirit of what the Minister say Honourable Venson-Moitoi, tell me the number of is quoting there, is he saying to this House that his young people aged 12 to 14 who are supposed to be in Ministry has already conducted a tracer study of out school and what is happening with regard to their plight, of school young people? If so, can he provide the dates the out of school children. This information is there when such studies were undertaken? Honourable Speaker. Even in the Kedikilwe Report, the Revised Policy of Education, was making reference to MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, if we were to talk about the 17 per cent missing children. That information is definition of words, the tracer study in this context is there. On the basis of that percentage, this government asking me to go and investigate, find out and ascertain. has come up with interventions to make sure that we I am saying that has already been done. The plight of treat the problems that these young people are facing.

208 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TRADE AND this disease, at what percentage and where are these INDUSTRY (MR MOTOWANE): Point of clarification. people. All I am saying, Honourable Speaker, is that Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente le this information that we are asked to go and do is very Tona yo o buang. Mma ke botse gore a Tona o ka nna easy to go and retrieve from the Ministry of Education mo seemong sa go ka tlhalosa gore, ka go na le Youth and Skills Development and the Ministry of Health Empowerment Programmes tse di dirilweng jaaka Young which becomes part of their plight. Farmers Fund, Youth Development Fund, a go ka tswa go na le sepe se se neng se dira gore Ministry wa gagwe MR MAKGALEMELE: Point of clarification. Thank o tswe ka tsone Empowerment Programmes tse, kana di you Mr Speaker. I think in all fairness to the Honourable dule fela go se na sepe se tota se neng se ba sosoetsa gore Minister, clearly when I made the presentation, I ba ye go fitlha mo go reng di nne teng? Ke a leboga. did accept that there is some form of information disaggregated and scattered all over as it might be. MR KGATHI: Thank you Honourable Minister. Yes, All what I am asking for is that let us come up with there was something that was pushing us to do that. That an exercise that is more targeting. About three weeks was the second point I was getting to, where the Youth back, I asked the Honourable Minister to give me such Policy is talking about young people in the labour market. information for the Shoshong Constituency. He was It is giving statistics as per the 1991 Population Census. not able to give such information. He only gave me It indicated that young people aged 12 to 14 who were information for the Shoshong village. In addition to males; there were 13.8 per cent of these young people who that Mr Speaker, the Honourable Minister was not able were unemployed, 29.8 per cent of young people who are to provide me with the situation regarding to motse females, totaling 17.1 per cent of those young people who was Shoshong fela o le nosi. He was unable to tell me were 12 to 14 who are unemployed. Regarding young their plight and empowerment requirements. people aged 15 to 19; there were 31.2 per cent of them who were unemployed. All these statistics are there. On MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, what I want to emphasise the basis of this, we then formulated the strategies to say, is that, the disaggregation of the statistics as per the what is it that we need to do to ensure that these young Central Statistics Office (CSO) is not done as in people can be taken back into the labour market. accordance with what he is asking, gore kwa Shoshong go ntse jang. I have said we are now part of the We came up with the Young Farmers Fund and the reference team ya CSO which is going to undertake the Youth Development Fund which was called the Out statistics ka 2011. There is no reason for duplication. If of School Youth Grant. It is a purposefully designed CSO is going to do that, what exactly is he asking for? programme to ensure that young people are empowered I am saying what is the rush about? in that regard. This is the second condition with respect to what this motion is calling for. Saying, “go and found MR RAKHUDU: On a point of correction Mr Speaker. out” and I am say no. We already know that there are Statistics Botswana, Mr Speaker, not Central Statistics so many young people with these. Office.

The distortion that this tracer study that the Honourable MR KESUPILE: On a point clarification Mr Speaker. Member is calling for which will bring to this is that Honourable Minister, I just want to know whether you young people are fluid in terms of movement. University read in this motion a request for you to conduct a tracer of Botswana will release 4,000 young graduates. By study for the purposes of internal administrative work the time you design an intervention on the basis of the in your Ministry or is asking you to conduct a tracer tracer study, that 4,000 will have already been absorbed study for the purpose of national planning. by the labour market. This is what that I am saying. MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, the motion is saying, “go The reason why we are sticking to the National Census and undertake a tracer study that will inform you on Figures is because those are presenting a picture at a the plight and empowerment requirements”. I will be national level. On the basis of that, there is what we able to use the information for internal administrative call an Inter-Census Statistics that will guide you to planning, and also for a national picture in terms of make intervention strategies, to check if the strategies empowering young people regardless of whether they that I have come up with are working or not. These are are in Gumare or any other place. the sort of things that we are talking about. Mr Speaker, I was trying to demonstrate that what I am The other conditions identified by this policy are young being asked for is already there. What we are going to people and health. It also gives statistics. The Ministry do with the coming census by Statistics Botswana, is of Health has got specially dedicated Statistics Division going to assist us improve on what we are doing. Over that deals with statistics to indicate who is affected by

Hansard No 163 Part 4 209 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

and above that, this National Youth Policy is being Honourable Rakhudu. To ask the Minister to say, by reviewed, and we have given an undertaking that around implication, are you saying the information that you July session, we will make an attempt to present it in will get from Statistics Botswana, you will be able Parliament. It is talking about the second condition which to deduce from that information to give you what the is the plight, young people and health; it is identifying tracer study will give you? risks associated with sexuality, HIV/AIDS, STDs and all that. If you need that information by age category, MR KGATHI: Yes, as I am saying, Statistics Botswana Rev. Dr Seakgosing will give you that information; it now has the information, and they will give us this is there. If you need pregnancy amongst young women, information. I am saying there is virtually no reason Honourable Venson-Moitoi will give statistics. I cannot why we have to agree to this motion. There are also go and collate as Honourable Makgalemele is saying, young people in the labour market I have talked about. undertaking study and collating information. That is If you need statistics on how many young people are why we were even debating the motion to say let clinics unemployed, this information is there Mr Speaker; young go to the people who deal with health. But Statistics people which is the plight, those in crime and violence... Botswana is now going to ensure that all this is collated MR MOTLHALE: On a point of clarification Mr and brought together, so that we can be able to get this Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. I am a bit confused information. We are now asking Statistics Botswana Mr because the Honourable Minister keeps on saying what Speaker, saying that the information we have through the motion seeks to address is already available. But which we mazed a basis for the Youth Policy has not on more than two occasions, the honourable mover of been disaggregated in the manner that we want to do. the motion has said, “I have requested for information It might even be necessary because it has to change, from your Ministry and you have not adequately given to even disaggregate it by constituency and village by me the information I requested”. This points out that village within constituency so that information then perhaps as he says, the information could be there but becomes relevant. Now, if that is what is needed, we will it is disaggregated; to use the term he used. I want inform the reference team to say, this is what will guide to find out from you what the problem could be with planning. As you know, we have even been flexible; the undertaking this study, specifically with a view to Youth Development Fund is allocated per constituency. ascertain certain things. For instance, the issue here is, MR RAKHUDU: I thank you Mr Speaker and I thank how do we help these young people who are out of Honourable Kgathi for yielding. I am seeking this school? If one wants to know how many young people clarification so that when we enter into this debate, we in the Maun Region would like to go into fisheries for are properly informed. Honourable Kgathi, I want you instance, would the information you have be able to to clarify whether by implication you are saying that help us in that regard. The reason this question comes Statistics Botswana will do the tracer study for you about is that, the Honourable Member would want to or not? The reason I ask for the clarification is simply see how best I can assist out of school youth in my that, Honourable Makgalemele is asking you to do the constituency. But if the information of what they would tracer study. like to do is not there, then you fail to know what to do to help them. I thank you. MR KGATHI: No, I am not saying the Statistics Botswana will undertake a tracer study. All I am saying MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, I have said the information is that, they will undertake a National Population and as per the 1991 census regarding the plight of young Housing Census, and then my Ministry has placed a people is there. What is going to happen in 2011, the request that the disaggregation of statistics be classified information will be even much better because we according to the following age categories; 12 to 14, 15 have asked for it to be disaggregated even into finite to 19, 20 to 24, 25 to 29. It will also be by gender, variables that we will be able to use. I concede there educational level, marital status and place of residence. will be problems relating to information, finite statistics, That is going to be done in few months to come. relating to how many young people can we find at some other settlements. As I have indicated in my response, I was at the point where I was talking about the issue of Shoshong is not disaggregated on its own; it is classified health, there is also alcohol and substance abuse. under Mahalapye Central. What I have said was that, we might even go further, depending on the developments ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL to say it might even be necessary. Developments now GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): On a point of are patterned according to constituencies, to even clarification Mr Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker, thank come up with information with respect to alignment you Honourable Shaw Kgathi. I think my question of constituencies so that we get to have this final will almost be a follow up to the question asked by

210 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate) information. But I will not be able to say on the basis of refuse, so ga go na tomeletso epe e e leng gore e teng. that only, we should go and undertake this. For me just to conclude Mr Speaker...

Just to conclude, to demonstrate that we know about the MR KWELAGOBE: On a point of correction Mr plight, I was talking about young people and gender, Speaker. Mr Speaker, motion fa o tlile mo Ntlong e, ga we have this information; abuse of young people, o sa tlhole e le wa mong wa one, ke wa Ntlo e. Ntlo young people in sports and recreation. All these, we e e na le thata ya gore e o amend. Tona le ene o na le have identified as what is the plight for young people tshwanelo ya gore fa a bona e le gore motion gongwe and we know their conditions. Mr Speaker, the young ga o kake wa ntsha information e e tlhokafalang, a people by gender, Statistics Botswana will tell you sutise gore motion be amended. Mme fa a sa batle that there were 48 per cent male, 52 per cent female. to ambush mong wa motion, o ka nna a buisanya le In programming and designing programmes for mong wa motion to amend, o tle o lebege jaana, re tle empowerment, we will be able to ensure that we target re kgone gore re go thuse. Jaanong ga ke itse gore fa the females because they are the most affected. a re motion ke wa ga Honourable Makgalemele, kana Honourable Member o raya gore o a goroga mo Ntlong MR MOTLHALE: On a point of clarification Mr e, ga a itse gore go ntse go diragala eng. Speaker. Ke a leboga Tona. Tona, a ke tlaa bo ke sa bue nnete fa ke kare o lomeleditse Rre Makgalemele. MR SPEAKER: Ke ne ke kopile gore go buisanngwe Ka gore fa re bua, o ne o rile, “fa o ka ya go fetola sentle batlotlegi. dilo dingwe fa ya nna jaana, nnyaa ke tlaa bo ke sena mathata le yone”. Ra ba ra e kwala mmogo. A o ne o sa MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, ke tlhalositse gore rialo mong wa me? as per the motion which I refused in December, I demonstrated to Rre Makgalemele gore this motion MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, motion o ga se wa me. will not see the light of the day because is concocted Fa e le gore Rre Motlhale o batla go tlontlolola Rre ka dilo tse e leng gore they make life very difficult for Makgalemele gore o ne a tlile go kopa thuso kwa go Honourable Members to accept. On the basis of that nna, I do not think I can do that. But all I am saying ke guidance, the motion was withdrawn from Parliament. gore, motion... So I do not know what else you want from me gore I should have assisted in this regard. All I am saying ke HONOURABLE MEMBER: Nnyaa, ga a ise a re o gore, I guided accordingly to say this motion... a mo tlontlolola. MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification MR KGATHI: Nnyaa, a re a nna ke tlaa bo ke sa mo Mr Speaker. lomeletse. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Order Honourable MR SPEAKER: Order, Honourable Members, please, Makgalemele. please. HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...Inaudible... MR KGATHI: Rraetsho, go tlaa bo go sa nna jalo, motion ga se wa me, ke wa ga Rre Makgalemele. O o MR SPEAKER: Please I pray for peace. Unfortunately tlisitse a batla to debate it jaaka o ntse. Nna se ke se I cannot allow Honourable Makgalemele to keep on dirang as the Minister, I want to convince this House asking for clarification between him and the Minister, not to agree with the motion, and I am demonstrating Standing Order 42(3) clearly empowers Honourable why we should not. Makgalemele as the architect of the motion to come and summarise. So, you will have adequate time Honourable MR KWELAGOBE: On a point of clarification Makgalemele to come and clear whatever mist; whatever Mr Speaker. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, grey areas that you may find along the dialogue. ke utlwa Tona sentle gore ene ga a batle go thusa Rre Makgalemele ka gore motion o ke wa ga Rre MR MODUBULE: Procedure, Honourable Speaker. Makgalemele. Se ke se batlang ke gore a ntlhalosetse Honourable Speaker, is it correct that the motion was gore a ka tsamaiso, Matona ga ba ise ba ko ba amend withdrawn from this House? If it was, how did it then motion fa gore motion o tle o itebaganye le se ene Tona come back? a se tlhaloganyang mopalamente a batla go se bua? A golo mo ga a itse fa go ntse go diragala in this House. MR SPEAKER: In all fairness, Honourable Modubule, I do not remember this motion been drawn from the MR KGATHI: Nnyaa mogolo, fa motion o beilwe on floor of the House. As far as I know, I was in the House the floor of Parliament, the responsibility remains with during the time when Honourable Makgalemele was the mover of the motion. You may amend it but he may holding the floor. He never called for the sending away

Hansard No 163 Part 4 211 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

of the motion. Until and unless it happened when I was Gongwe go supa gore, e re fa re ya go kopana gape, not here, but I still religiously believe that the motion kana Palamente e ke meeting wa bobedi some of the is still alive on the table. Honourable Members ba o tsena. Gongwe re ye go nna le nakonyana ya gore re tle re supetsane, gore ba seka ba MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, I set to conclude... nna aggrieved. Fela gone on a matter of procedure yes, it MR MAKGALEMELE: Mr Speaker, it is more becomes difficult, bogolo jang ene mong wa leso. Ke gore clarity on procedure. Ke gore I am a bit lost, Mr jaanong mong wa leso o tshwanetse gore a lemoge gore, Speaker. When I was on the floor on the 19th of March, mme a seka a fetola se into a dialogue. Perhaps, gongwe you did allow the Honourable Minister to make quite fa re ka e tlhaloganya jalo, to aid the Speaker gore le ene e a number of interjections and seeking clarity. At the seka ya nna o kare o etla a re kgama mo go feteletseng. time there was nothing wrong for him to do that. As the MR MMOLOTSI: Procedure, Mr Speaker. mover of the motion, I also need clarity for purposes of Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente ke gore, kana preparing my responses. the Honourable Minister o ntse a tlhalosa gore, motion MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Maybe in all fairness, I was withdrawn, mme ga se boammaaruri. Ka tsela e e should have stopped you much earlier because you can ntseng jalo, for purposes of recording, ke ne ke re is it read the Standing Order yourself. Let me tell the House not procedural gore tlhoka boammaaruri eo e boelwe what Standing Order 42(3) has to say, “The mover of a kwa morago? motion may reply after all the other Members present MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Bagaetsho, nnyaa, o have had an opportunity of addressing the Assembly kare golo fa re tlaa tlhakatlhakanya dikgang. Kana and before the question is put; but the mover of an you will remember, I do not whether it was the last amendment shall not have a right of reply.” So, you can meeting. There was a motion similar to this one, see ga ke mo sokele ka Sekhurutshe. O na le tshwanelo Honourable Makgalemele can bear me out, which he fela e e tletseng. Ke ka gore kgantele Tona o ne a bua fa, was asked to go and redraft and he brought this new mover a bua fa, jaanong ga bo go nna o kare ga go nne shape. So, this one has never been moved off the floor. sentle fela. Honestly I do not feel I am aggrieving you, Whoever says o ne o ntshitswe, no, I do not want to say Honourable Makgalemele. I am just trying to follow the it is persecution of the truth, but that is not right. procedures of the House as laid down by ourselves. MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, I have said a similar MR MOTLHALE: On a point of clarification. If you motion to this one was withdrawn from the floor of have quoted and I have been trying to follow where Parliament for redrafting. The problem is that some you have quoted, I do not see where it says he cannot people are not listening and nna I never talked about ask for clarification. the withdrawal of this motion, otherwise I would not MR SPEAKER: You are out of order. be debating it.

MR RAKHUDU: Mr Speaker, on a matter of So to conclude, I was saying... procedure. MR MODUBULE: Procedure, Honourable Speaker. MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! You are welcome Honourable Speaker, I am at lost. I do not understand Honourable Rakhudu. All I was saying is that the what the Honourable Minister is saying. If he is saying Honourable mover of the motion may clarify, mme a similar motion was withdrawn, are we debating a kana le ka dumalana le nna Batlotlegi Mapalamente, new motion? If so, why do we say resumed debate, kgantele fa Honourable Minister le Honourable because we are starting a new motion altogether? So, Makgalemele; it was almost a dialogue. So, I have to I have a problem. maintain order in this House, that is the reason why I MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Bagaetsho, Batlotlegi am here. I am maintaining order. Mapalamente, le lapile ne batsadi ba me? Nnyaa, go MR RAKHUDU: Ke a go leboga, Mr Speaker. Tota tlhamaletse fela, let me say it in Swahili so that we on a matter of procedure go ntse fela jalo. Ke gore as are all on the same wave length. Kana Honourable long as you ask for clarification, then the procedure Member for Shoshong o ne a bua motion o ka di 19, e says that you should be allowed clarification, other rile a tshwanetse gore a tswelele, Motlotlegi Rraetsho than if the one on the floor refuses. Gape where the Raletobana, a bo a tla a kopa a re o batla go tsenya tshutiso Speaker feels that either that order is being abused, ya potlako. Go raya gore, he interrupted Honourable then the Speaker can intervene. I think Mr Speaker ke Makgalemele’s motion. So, we are right rona kwano to gore, it is unusual gore, re bo re e baya jaana. say it is resuming. We are very much correct.

212 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR KGATHI: Thank you Mr Speaker. I was just MR KGATHI: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think I need concluding to say, I want to convince this House... to conclude...

MR G. SALESHANDO: On a point of clarification. MR KESUPILE: On a point of clarification. Rraetsho, Motlotlegi Rre Motlhale o rile, le wena Honourable Minister, just two very short questions for Tona o nnile le seabe to draft motion jaaka fa o ntse clarification. Is one of your difficulties with this motion, gompieno. the fact that you are not given the period, that is the year in which you should start the tracer study? The second HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... question is, are you saying you are more informed at this MR G. SALESHANDO: O a go pateletsa? Ke eng o particular point in time or you will be more informed tshaba go mo ganetsa? following the national population census?

MR SPEAKER: Tlhalosa kgang ya ga Motlotlegi MR KGATHI: I will respond to the Honourable Mopalamente. Member as I conclude because, it is part of what I was going to finish off with. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. MR ARONE: Further clarification. Thank you MR SPEAKER: A o ne o sa mme a tlhalosa pele, Honourable Speaker, thank you Honourable Minister. Motalaote? Looking at the content of this motion, is the Minister not able to see that this motion would assist when the tracer MR KGATHI: Ke kopa go tlhalosa, gongwe ke bue study is carried out? It will assist in implementing the ka Setswana fa o ntetla. Ke rile, e rile fa motion... National Youth Policy because, it would bring about HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. the targeted information that we need specifically for the implementation of the policy. MR SPEAKER: Ke ne ke kopile gore Tona a tlhatswe pele, o tlaa tla, Rraetsho. MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, probably the Honourable Member had gone out when I was talking about the MR KGATHI: Ke rile motion o re neng re o bua adequacy of the information. ka December, go ne go na le mathata a gore o ka amogelwa. Ke gore, o ne o kwadilwe ka mafoko a a I have said, granted we have statistics and it is not sa amogeleseng mo Palamenteng e, ka fa go ka dirang disaggregated to the finite. Giving Shoshong as an gore go dumelwe e le motion. Go ne go na le mathata, example, I have said, when you go to Central Statistics o ne o bua ka bo indigenous skills and what what. Botswana, you say, can I have information on Shoshong, it is clubbed under Mahalapye Central. I am merely Rre Makgalemele a tla kwa go nna le Rre Motlhale a re, saying that whilst that gives us information, we have “borra ke dire eng?” Ra re, “fa o ka ntsha mafoko a”. A now gone to Central Statistics Botswana and we are bo a re, “jaanong ke ye go dira jang?” Rre Motlhale a bo sitting on the reference team to say, disaggregate this a re, “I will go and move gore this motion o dirwe”. Ke information further and Central Statistics Botswana is bo ke re, “it is entirely up to you, I was just indicating undertaking that research or investigation next year, to you that, the motion as drafted is not going to see which is 2011. the light of the day.” When this one was drafted, I was never party to it. All I am saying is, this motion as well The difficulty with this proposal in any study if you have is similar to the motion that was withdrawn then, it really done it, there is what we call methodology and the cannot see the light of the day, because it is more or tools of study have to be very clear. What will concoct less saying the same thing. your methodology is that it will make reliability of the information very doubtful. You will quote the numbers MR MAKGALEMELE: No, I just want to elucidate of so many young people out of school. When you come or clarify the point that is being made by Honourable the following year, they are already employed. This is Kgathi in terms of what was agreed outside this House. the greatest difficulty with your proposal. Indeed, there was some form of an agreement, but it is fine. This is because clearly he has gone against that MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS agreement and I am not surprised. The point is that, DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): On I want to assure him that I do not need his sympathy a point of procedure Mr Speaker. Ke tshwenngwa when this motion is debated. This is the motion that I ke tsamaiso e re tsenang mo go yone e. O kgalemile have presented. It is my area of authority and I am very gore Honourable Members kgang e ga se ya bone confident with what I am presenting. ba le babedi. Honourable Kwelagobe o tlhalositse gore motion fa o le fa, le rona ke wa rona. Jaanong o

Hansard No 163 Part 4 213 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

kare bakaulengwe go na le e ba e buang, e rona re sa helpful to yield results that he would want. Two, it may e tlhaloganyeng, e e seyong fa. Jaanong ba setse ba be useful to provide indication of the duration of the bolelana dithuto le bokgoni jwa bone. Tota fela ga re study, which will be guided by the purpose the study is mo tsamaisong Rraetsho. Namola mme re tle re kgone being undertaken for. So, I would suggest that it gets go boela mo teng ga motion. taken into consideration.

MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Bagaetsho, kana mafoko Another important aspect to point out is that, the a a buiwang ke Motlotlegi Tona wa Thuto, ke one a ke purpose of the study as stated here, suggests or gives kileng ka ikuela ka one mo go lona kgantele gore, a re the impression that the purposes are only left at, “to buisanyeng sentle. Ka ba ka bua Standing Order 47 (a); be more informed of the plight and empowerment ya re, “a e re re bua re buisanye ka seriti se se nyalanang requirements” and nothing more than that. So, if you le rona le Ntlo e”. Ke kile ka nna ka kopa, ke a kopa seek to develop programmes or interventions, this study gape bagaetsho ke khubame, ke gogoba ka mangole ke that is being proposed would not be interested in that. le moeteledipele wa lona gore ka tsweetswee bagaetsho, So, it may be useful to go back and look at what the a re buisanyeng sentle. Le wena Motlotlegi Tona o sale real purpose of that is or leave it unstated in the motion. o ntse o rile o a fetsa. Ke kopa gore o fetse Rraetsho. Now, it is important also that we identify utilitarian purpose for this motion as I understood some of the MR KGATHI: Mr Speaker, I could have long finished. interventions from the likes of Honourable Motlhale, The interjections with clarifications and all that are the so that we provide for it in the motion itself. If the ones that are holding me up. To conclude, I was saying intention is to try and understand the circumstances it will be very difficult to really undertake what the that young people are under or faced with, then that Honourable Member is asking this House to do. With would need to be embodied in the motion and not that, I request that… limited to being more informed about the plight and HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of empowerment requirements of young people. clarification, Mr Speaker. Tracer studies by their nature are very costly and MR KGATHI: I am not yielding. the cost would need to be justified. If I understood the discussion correctly, it would seem a situational MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Standing Order 43 analysis would be more of what is needed. It is not is very clear Honourable Members. It is up to the that the information as sought in the motion would Honourable Member holding the floor. If he does not necessarily be available. We have information on what want to yield we do not have to shout as many times deep-sticking or what studies were undertaken when as we possibly can. I am saying please, a word to the various programmes or policies were promulgated. We wise is enough. If you say “clarification” once, he shall have that, but to trace a person, who has left school definitely yield. O tshwanetse a wetse pele. Ke a kopa in year X and find out their migratory route, might be gore a re dirisanyeng sentle batsadi ba me. cattle post, went to prison, came back and got a job. These are very few at the national level let alone in MR KGATHI: I conclude to say this Honourable the Shoshong Constituency. I personally would like to House should not accept this motion. Thank you. declare that I am pretty familiar with quite a number ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL of studies. So, I would back to suggest quite seriously AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR Mr Speaker and with due respect that I encourage the M. E. MASISI): I thank you Honourable Speaker. Let mover of the motion, not even to seek an amendment me begin by commending Honourable Makgalemele for on the floor, but to withdraw and go and re-phrase. So the attempts at elucidating the points he wishes to raise that we actually attain the intended purpose that I think in the motion. I will attempt to be helpful both to him I drew from the discussion as we move. and this House. Let me point out a few technical issues. MR REATILE: On a point of clarification, Mr Speaker. One is that in my understanding if I heard the discussion Mr Speaker, ke leboge Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa correctly, the Honourable mover sought to ask, “That Moshupa ke bo ke re kgang ya gagwe ke mo reeditse this House requests Government to undertake a tracer ka tlhwaafalo. Ke bo ke re a mme go tlaa bo go se study”. By its technical definition, a tracer study implies maleba gore e re fa Motlotlegi a setse a supile fa makoa a longitudinal study and it requires time. Therefore, it a motion a ka tswang a setse a le teng, ke eng a ka se is essential I think, in trying to help the Honourable ka a tle ka bogakolodi joo gompieno go leka go tla ka mover to be helpful to his course, to guide the time amendment yone eo? E bo e le gore jaanong re tswelela of beginning of the study that he proposes, for it to be pele ka motion. Gona le gore nako le nako re bo re busa

214 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

Motlotlegi re re a ye go kwala motion, o tla ka one MR SPEAKER: Intshwarele pele Tona. Batlotlegi go tswa foo re batla go mmusa gape. Ke mo e kareng Mapalamente, ke kopa gore le buele kwa tlase. Kana jaanong le Ntlo e re setse re tshamekela fela mo go yone. golo fa ga re kwa kgolegelong kwa le ka itsiwang go Ke tsaya gore tota fa e le gore re dumela gore lefoko le bua, le tshwanetse le bue, le Batlotlegi, mme buelang le tswe, a le tswe re tsenye le sele. Motlotlegi o ka dira kwa tlase gore debate e seka ya kgamega. Ke a le kopa jalo, re bone gore a re dumalana le ene kana re ganana le batsadi ba me. ene. Re bo re tswelela pele. MR M. E. MASISI: Thank you very much Mr MR M. E. MASISI: Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you Speaker. I was just saying that I have had the advantage Honourable Member. I have not crafted an imagined of having listened to most of the debate in the House amendment. That is the only reason why I am not and it became apparently clear to me that as the proposing it right now. If I had I certainly would. I discussions were going on, the intention was to try and also would want to give the benefit to the Honourable understand the circumstances of those youth who are mover of the motion to appreciate some of the points I not in school. Now the purpose for that, as stated even am raising now… in the motion, is to be more informed on the plight and empowerment requirements, period. However, in the MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification, Mr debate it became clear that we were interested in what Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you Honourable to do about those, particularly in given areas. Jaanong Masisi. I just wanted to indicate Honourable Masisi Honourable Member for Okavango, Honourable that the tracer study is not in any way suggesting Arone, the difference lies herein. So I would suggest that we do a migratory study. What you are saying is that we remain loyal to attending a little longer, and implying that I am saying, we should track where out then we would appreciate that my good friend. of school youth X has been to, ever since they have left school. I just want us to get information of their Finally, a tracer study seeks to go and establish current situation. contact with the person who used to be in school but is elsewhere, so you actual track them. Tracking them MR M. E. MASISI: This is one of the reasons why I implies that there is time between the now and when would not have hazarded an amendment on the floor. they were last in school, and there is a period of time Perhaps we might need some time outside… between when they were in school and where they are HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of now. Now that is what I was talking about the cost, clarification, Mr Speaker. time and what you want to draw out of that, for what purpose. So I would beg… MR M. E. MASISI: Can I finish this point please? Perhaps we might need some time outside this forum. MR KESUPILE: On a point of clarification. Thank To understand the differences between a tracer study you Mr Speaker. I would just like to know from the and a situational analysis. I think we have technical Honourable Minister whether as the motion reads, differences at the interpretation for which we might is he saying his problem is that, a tangible purpose need to reconcile between ourselves. is not coming out clearly from the motion itself, to the extent that when a tracer study would have been MR ARONE: Thank you Mr Speaker. I am standing on conducted, you still would not know what to do with a point of clarification. I do not know what is not clear the information? Secondly, is the Honourable Minister to what the Honourable Minister is saying, because this worried that the information, once collected through motion is straight forward. If I was to just read part of this study, it will have a very short life span, in the it with your permission, the last sentence which says, sense that many changes will take place and that will “to be more informed of their plight and empowerment confine the information itself? Thank you. requirements”. I think that is self explanatory of what exactly the motion seeks to get. So, I do not know why MR M. E. MASISI: Thank you very much Mr Speaker the Honourable Minister is suggesting that the motion Sir. About the first, I am not so worried about what the be rephrased. I do not know what more he wants motion says; the motion says what it says and speaks explained. for itself. I am responding to what was added to the discussion as the debate continued this afternoon, which MR M. E. MASISI: I have the obvious advantage of clearly pointed out to me as I was listening, that there is having sat through the debate and have listened to the more that is wanted by the true intents of this motion, various inputs… than what is stated. Now if it says as it does, that it is limited to the plight or seeking to be more informed on HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… the plight and the empowerment requirements, it has a

Hansard No 163 Part 4 215 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

purpose, very clearly. The purpose is purely historical go buelelela banana. Mme fa go tla tshutiso fela e e right now and for use of information for posterity, but botlhokwatlhokwa e e tshwanang le e, he starts shooting that is distinctly different from what was debated in it down, and crucifying Honourable Makgalemele. Ke this House in terms of the stated purpose, particularly ne ka fitlhela e lea serious shock for me. following the discussion that allegedly took place. I do not want to be a witness to this, between Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Inaudible)... Motlhale, Honourable Minister and Honourable MR MABILETSA: Yes he did. In his response he was Makgalemele. But these point out to disparity. too crucifix.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Inaudible)... HONOURABLE MEMBERS: You are imputing.

MR M. E. MASISI: Whether I am afraid or worried, MR MABILETSA: No I am not, Raserokana it does not arise Honourable Member of Parliament for Kanye South. If the mover of the motion and MR SPEAKER: Who is Raserokana? this Honourable House indeed, is satisfied with the MR MABILETSA: He is a friend of mine yo ke neng information that will arise from this, it can be used ke mo gakologelwa. for that, to know their plight and empowerment requirements. It is different from what I heard as being MR SPEAKER: There is nobody in this Parliament what the intention truly is. by that name.

Now in trying to be helpful, I am suggesting, and I MR MABILETSA: I never said there was Mr Speaker, must say this very guardedly and with true loyalty, I oblige. gore perhaps we may need to find more time to try and craft the motion so that it seeks to help find that which Jaanong Mr Speaker... is not available for a particular purpose. It is important MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE that the mover of the motion, at least in terms of the (MR KGATHI): On a point of procedure. Mr Speaker, purpose, is satisfied with it. I plead with your Honourable Chair gore, the motion Mr Speaker Sir, I remain entirely grateful. Thank you. should be discussed within the context in which it is framed. There should be no implications to the effect MR MABILETSA (KGATLENG EAST): Mme ke that, the fact that I am refusing to accept this motion, go leboge Mr Speaker. means that I have got no consideration for the plight of young people. The context in which it is being debated MR SPEAKER: Maybe before Honourable Member by the Honourable Member is tantamountly imputing submits, in all fairness bagaetsho, Honourable Arone is improper motives. one of those Members of Parliament who disciplinarily sits in Parliament. It is not fair gore go builwe a seyo, MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Bagaetsho, ga re a re he religiously sits in Parliament. buisaneng sentle, ke kile ka le kopa, ke a tswelela gape ke le kopa. Ke dumalana le Motlotlegi Tona wa Banana, MR MABILETSA: Mr Speaker, thank you very much Metshameko le tsa Ngwao. O na le tshwanelo, le mororo for the floor. Mme ke supe gore, e rile fa Motlotlegi a le Tona, ya gore a ntshe maikutlo a gagwe ka kgang Makgalemele a ntsha kgang ya gagwe, ke ne ke mo e e mo tafoleng. Le lona Batlotlegi mapalamente, le na reeditse ka kutlobotlhoko e kgolo, ke akanya seemo se le tshwanelo ya go ka bua mafatlha a lona, mme ga go se mo kgaolong ya me mabapi le banana, ba e leng gore tlhokafale gore le tlhasele Honourable Tona. Ke ne ke fa o bua ka empowerment, lehuma le go ya dikoleng, fa ile go mo emisa Rraetsho ka gore ke ne ke utlwa gore ba tlhokang gore ba tsene sekole, ke mathata. Therefore, o tsamaela to imputing improper motives on your good ka bona motion wa ga Honourable Makgalemele o le self as per Standing Order 46 (5). in compliance with Vision 2016, o na le passion mo teng. Gakere we are talking about a compassionate MR MABILETSA: Mr Speaker, ke a go leboga. Mme and caring nation, I found this motion fully compliance ke re, sengwe sa dilo tse di nkgatlhang ka mogopolo o to this Vision. This is a very good motion, but fa go ya wa ga Motlotlegi Makgalemele, ke mafoko a mararo go tla Tona a re o a araba, a nthonkgela, a bo a dira a konokono. Lefoko la ntlha ke le le reng, ‘more gore ke bue ke ne ke sa batle go bua about this motion. informed.’ Ke gore fa o bua ka ‘more informed,’ Tona Therefore, ke tlaa tshwanelwa ke gore ke supe gore, o informed, but Honourable Makgalemele o bona gore kana bagaetsho fa re bua ka banana, bontsi jwa bone ke ga a informed adequately, you need to inform him even batlhophi ba rona ba re fano. Tona ene ka sebelebele, further more. This is what I understand from the mover ke mongwe yo o batlang go itshupa jaaka mogaka wa

216 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Thursday 8th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate) of the motion. That is the first operative word that I For him to say that Honourable Rammidi o na le pick gone fa. E nngwe, and I want to commend Tona bolwetse, o lwala freedom square mentality, he is gore o lekile go tlhalosa ‘plight’ gore o raya eng, and imputing improper motive, so he is out of order, and I that is exactly what Honourable Makgalemele wishes ask that he be ruled out as such. this House to be able at the end of the day to address, ‘plight.’ Motho yo o leng in a plight situation, kana ke MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Bagaetsho, the motho yo o mo mathateng, yo o senang matswelo, yo Standing Order is very-very clear that we should not o sa itseng gore o ka itira eng. Therefore, this is why use abusive and insulting language. So ke a kopa gape this motion is even more important than gongwe Tona gore buisanang sentle re bo re tlotlane. Tse dingwe tse a ne a o akanya, le gore Motlotlegi Tona wa Banana, re ka di raana re le kwa ditlhareng, fa re mo Ntlong ya Metshameko le tsa Ngwao a ka re rayang a re, “ganang tlotla, a re buisaneng sentle batsadi. mogopolo o montlentle o o tshwanang le o.” Ke fitlhela MR MABILETSA: Ke a go leboga Motlotlegi. Ke ne e le gore tota fela ga se seemo se ke ka se amogelang. ke batla go tlhalosa gore mafoko a mararo a ke ntseng Lefoko la boraro la konokono... ke a bua a, ke one tota a dirang gore mogopolo o o nne botlhokwatlhokwa mo nna ke o lebang ka teng. Ke HONOURABLE MEMBER: La bobedi. buisiwa se ke gore, go na le banana ba e leng gore ba ka bo ba le kwa dikoleng tsa Primary, Junior Secondary MR MABILETSA: Nnyaa, ke rile la ntlha ke le Senior Secondary, ga bayo koo. Go na le ba e leng ‘more informed’, la bobedi ke ‘plight’, la boraro ke gore gotlhelele ga go na gope fa ba tsamayang teng mo ‘empowerment requirements.’ tsamaisong ya thuto. Mme kana monana wa gompieno, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Inaudible)... ke mogolo wa ka moso. Mme mogolo wa ka moso re tshwanetswe ke gore re mmetlele bokamoso jwa gagwe. MR MABILETSA: Nnyaa, this I take as one word. Gore a tle a goroge mo seemong se se botlhokwa sa Therefore, se ke se buang ke gore, re a itse gore banana gore tota mogolo yo re mmopileng e ka nna moagi yo o ba rona ba na le mathata a a ntseng jang, ba ba fetsang nang le maikarabelo, e le wa mofuta o o ntseng jang. bo Standard 7, Junior Certificate... Mme jaaka ke tlhaloganya Motlotlegi Makgalemele ka ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL fa a buang ka teng mo seemong se, o tlisitse tshutiso e GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): On a point of go lebega a na le matshwenyego a a tshwanang le a ke clarification. Thank you Mr Speaker, thank you comrade, nang le one kwa kgaolong ya me. Matshwenyegong a, Vice President in waiting. I was just going to say that fa a a lebisa Tona yo o okametseng Banana, e bo e le the Honourable Member wants to discuss the motion gore o raya Ntlo e e tlotlegang e a re nnyaa, ganang go reading the words written there in isolation. Once he bua ka matshwenyego a a ntseng jalo, gore Goromente isolates the words, I think he makes us lose the whole a seka a tsaya boikarabelo. Ke fitlhela e le sengwe sa thing of trying to follow what the motion really wants to dilo tse di senang thuso e bile ga di bope bokamoso jwa achieve. So I would just ask him to discuss the motion banana ba rona. Ka gonne re tlaa tswelela re le a class comprehensively, rather than isolating words. We can society e e nang le bahumi le bahumanegi. E e nang le all talk about ‘empowerment of youth’ and ‘plight’ from bo bashi ba ba ntseng jang. Seemo se ke tsayang gore many aspects, but I would want him to debate it in the se tshwentse Motlotlegi Makgalemele jaaka le nna se aspects and context of this motion. I thank you. ntshwentse Mr Speaker.

MR MABILETSA: Honourable Member o na le MR RAMMIDI: On a point of order Mr Speaker. The bolwetse jwa freedom square mentality, ya gore fela fa Honourable Minister has never said he is not concerned motho a bua, a bo a re o a mo tata. Ga ke itse gore fa about the plight of the young people or empowerment. ke tsaya mafoko a, ke santse ke a ala, e le gore jaanong So the Honourable Member of Parliament is imputing ke tla mo go reng ke a phuthe ...(Interruptions)... ke improper motives on the Minister. sengwe se e leng gore tota... MR SPEAKER: Honourable Isaac Steven Mabiletsa, ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND o a kgalemelwa Rraetsho. SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): On a point of order. Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of MR RAMMIDI: On a point of order! Mr Speaker. Mr order. Honourable Mabiletsa is not just a Member of Speaker, I expected you to make a ruling after I have Parliament, he is also an Assistant Speaker, custodian made a point of order. of the Standing Orders, and he perpetually insists on MR SPEAKER: Sorry Honourable Rammidi, I was imputing improper motives on us. still conferring with my Clerk. I was communicating

Hansard No 163 Part 4 217 Friday 9th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

with her when you complained. May you please come Honourable Members only 30 remain unanswered, up again so that I can correctly get your point of order, almost all of the deferred questions have been answered, so that I can make an informed judgement. that is a good record from 410. All the eight Bills that were submitted to this House the last two were passed MR RAMMIDI: Thank you Mr Speaker. On his yesterday, so that is 100 per cent achievement. Two debate the Honourable Member of Parliament is saying Policies were brought before the House and they all the Honourable Minister does not care about the plight passed. Six government motions or resolutions were of young people or empowerment. I am saying in his received, and I think the last one is the one we looked debate, I was here listening to him, he has never said at yesterday, and it passed, there too is 100 per cent. he does not care about empowerment or plight of the young people. So the debater is imputing improper Now comes my worry. My worry Honourable Members motives on the Minister. I thank you. remains, of the 20 private members motions received, only one has passed so far, two were negated, so really MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Now I have got you that means three out of 20. We have done very poorly correctly. In all fairness bagaetsho, if you say someone on that one. I would like us when we come back in July does not care, what insult is that? If the gentleman does at the General Assembly, when we shall be looking not care, he does not care and it has got nothing to do at our Standing Orders that we should also take this with improper motives. matter into consideration. Maybe adopt something MR MABILETSA: Ke a go leboga Motsamaisa along the lines of the Pan African Parliament, where Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mr Speaker, kgang tota fela things are orderly and timed so that we can pass these. e e ntshwenyang... These are assurances that you bother about Honourable Members, so they are just as important as the Bills that ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL we have passed. At least that is my position. Thank you GOVERNMENT (MS TSHIRELETSO): On a point very much for being so orderly and good and achieving of procedure, Mr Speaker. Tona yo... so much. MOTION QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ADJOURNMENT PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES IN RELATION TO HIV/AIDS MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): MR E. J. BATSHU (NKANGE): asked the Minister Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do now of Health if there are any HIV/AIDS programmes adjourn. specifically designed for people with disabilities; if not, how is Government planning to address the needs Question put and agreed to. of people with disabilities in relation to HIV/AIDS. The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 7.00 p.m. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH (MR until Friday 9th April, 2010 at 9.00 a.m. MATLHABAPHIRI): Madam Speaker, my Ministry Friday 9th April, 2010 has engaged in a number of initiatives geared towards addressing the needs of disabled people living with THE ASSEMBLY met at 9.00 a. m. HIV and AIDS. Among the initiatives implemented in 2009/2010 is the incorporation of sign language (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) into televised HIV/AIDS program, as well as the P R A Y E R S development of audio-cassette messages for the visually impaired. * * * * During 2010/2011, my Ministry will begin a trainer- SPEAKER’S ANNOUNCEMENT of trainer program in order to improve our capacity to educate the disabled. Health Education officers will MADAM SPEAKER (DR NASHA): Order! Order! also receive training in sign language. Honourable Members, good morning. Before we start our business on the Order Paper, indeed this is the Madam Speaker, I can also report that my Ministry last day until we meet in July as we agreed. Maybe I is currently pursuing a formal agreement with the should let you know one or two things. The Business Botswana Council of the Disabled in order to further Committee met yesterday, and they were pleased strengthen our HIV/AIDS response. I thank you that out of the 410 questions that were forwarded by Madam Speaker.

218 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ESTIMATED DOMESTIC CAPITAL AND POSTING SPECIAL CONSTABLES TO BORROWINGS SOME BORDER VILLAGES IN NKANGE CONSTITUENCY MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked the Minister of Finance and Development Planning to MR E. J. BATSHU (NKANGE): asked the Minister for state:- Defence, Justice and Security whether he would consider posting, as a matter of urgency, special constables to i) the estimated domestic capital in Botswana that the border villages of Dagwi, Changate and Nkange in can be accessed as borrowings by Government to order to help prevent crime, thus assuring communities finance budget deficit and development projects; in these villages of their safety and security.

ii) the estimated cost of local borrowing and how ACTING MINISTER OF DEFENCE, JUSTICE this compares to external borrowing; and AND SECURITY (MS MOTSUMI): Thank you iii) the projected targeted value of domestic Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, there are no borrowing during the 2010/2011 Financial Year. immediate plans to post special constables to the villages of Changate, Dagwi and Nkange. This Madam ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND Speaker is largely on account of available resources DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR TIBONE): and the consequent need to prioritise deployments Madam Speaker, throughout the country on the basis of comparative crime levels. Madam Speaker, while there is no i) a useful approximation for domestic capital that acceptable level of crime, the three villages record could be accessed as borrowing by government of relatively low levels of crime. Botswana is the outstanding balance of the Bank of Botswana Certificates (BOBCs). The Bank Madam Speaker, the current deployment of two Police of Botswana Certificates are the best measure Officers at Changate and three each at Dagwi and of the appetite in the market for investment in Nkange are complemented by patrols undertaken by the Government Securities. Currently the balance Tutume Police Station which is situated 21 kilometres stands at P17 billion. away from the furthest village on bituminised road.

ii) Based on the March 2010 issuance of Government In addition, patrols along the international border with Bonds and Treasury Bills, the cost of local Zimbabwe are conducted from SSG Base Camps at borrowing ranged from 7.5 per cent to 10.25 per Maitengwe and Goshwe, thus adding to the overall cent. For example, interest rate stood at 7.5 per cent security of the villages. I thank you Madam Speaker. for a three year bond, 10.25 per cent for a 12 year bond and 8 per cent for a 15 year bond. The interest ALLEVIATION OF PROBLEMS AT MADAWU rate for external loans that Botswana Government SECONDARY SCHOOL had contracted in 2009 were based on six months MR E. J. BATSHU (NKANGE): asked the Minister of US Dollar London Interbank Offer Rate (LIBOR) Education and Skills Development if she is aware of:- and European Interbank Offer Rate (EURIBOR), which currently range between 0.4 per cent and i) the acute shortage of classrooms at Madawu 0. 99 per cent plus a margin of 14 basis point. In Junior Secondary School in Nswazwi, which addition, the maturity periods for these external has resulted in some classes being taught in the loans range from 15 years to 30 years. laboratory and the school hall; and

iii) Madam Speaker, the government initiated a P5 ii) the health hazards caused by pit latrines at billion bond issuance programme in 2008. This Madawu Junior Secondary School, as they are amount has however been exhausted following few in number, considering the current student the March 2010 issuance. However, discussions population; if so are ongoing between my Ministry and the Bank of Botswana regarding another bond issuance What does she intend doing to alleviate these problems. programme, which will be presented to this ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND Honourable House for consideration in the near SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): future. Therefore it is premature to project the Madam Speaker, I am not aware of any acute shortage target value for domestic borrowing since the of classrooms at Madawu Junior Secondary School. issue is still under consideration. I thank you Madawu Junior School is a 6 stream school and operate Madam Speaker. as such. Such schools are provided with thirteen (13) staff

Hansard No 163 Part 4 219 Friday 9th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

houses, 4 classrooms, 1 science block, 1 multipurpose EFFECTS OF REMOTE AREA DWELLERS block, 1 pavilion, a drawing room, machine room, art PROGRAMME room, specialist room, computer room, storeroom and 8 students’ toilets as per standard specifications. The MR B. ARONE (OKAVANGO): asked the Minister space available at Madawu Junior Secondary School of Local Government:- is sufficient for them to carry out a normal school i) how effective the Remote Area Dwellers programme. The school will be assisted with the Programme (RADP) is, with specific reference to development of a suitable teaching timetable which will RAD students in the Okavango Constituency; and enable them to effectively utilise the available space. ii) how many RAD students have reached the Madam Speaker, the school has twelve toilets, six University and graduated since 2005 to-date. for boys and six for girls. The current enrolment for the school is 215 students. The school has more toilet ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL facilities than would normally be provided for in a six GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): Madam stream school. Mme ke tla a di etela gore le nna ke ye Speaker, the overall effectiveness of RADP has been go iponela ka matlho. I thank you. limited by challenges ranging from lack of market, mismanagement and lack of commitment in both MR BATSHU: Ke a leboga. Ke ne ke re ke botse Tona income generating projects and the livestock scheme. gore o a itse gore kwa sekoleng se the hall has been partitioned into two classrooms. Fa go ntse jalo a go a However, the Programme has recorded success in amogelesega mo lephateng la gagwe? isolated cases. For example, Communal farms in Ghanzi and Kgalagadi. There are also a number of MR RAKHUDU: Pele fa ke nna fa fatshe Madam individuals who have done very well in terms of the Speaker, ke ne ke solofetsa the Honourable Member gore livestock scheme, where they have increased their ka gore ke na le pelaelo ya gore dilo dingwe gongwe di livestock from the time they received them. For a bo di batla go lebiwa, go re ke tla a ya go lebaleba nna instance, at Gojwane settlement in the Central District ka sebelebele. Go raya gore jaanong tsone dilo tseo ke each farmer was given five cows between 2000 and tla a ya go di bona. Ke a leboga Madam Speaker. 2004, and now they all have over 20 heads of cattle.

ACCOMODATION FOR BOTSWANA Madam Speaker, those beneficiaries who were given INTERNATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF SCIENCE livestock from 2000 onwards, have more cattle than AND TECHNOLOGY STAFF those who were issued with livestock in the early MR M. M. GOYA (PALAPYE): asked the Minister years of the programme. This is attributed to close of Education and Skills Development if the Botswana monitoring by the council in recent years. International University of Science and Technology Madam Speaker, generally, economic promotion fund will provide accommodation to all its staff members; projects are not doing well across the country due to if not, how many staff members will be excluded. mismanagement of funds, lack of commitment and ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND abandonment of projects by the beneficiaries. Of all SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): the income generating projects that were funded 30 per Madam Speaker, the Botswana International University of cent are operational and only 10 per cent of them are Science and Technology (BIUST) project is implemented profitable. in two phases, the Founding Development (Phase 1) and In the Okavango Sub-District, the programme has been the Public Private Partnership (PPP) or Phase 2. effective in so far as provision of various components of During the Founding Development, which is just a seed the programme and their uptake is concerned. During campus, 100 per cent staff housing is provided, excluding the 2009/10 financial year, for instance, 128 cattle were five executive houses which are to be provided under a purchased and distributed in addition to the existing separate project. In the meantime the BIUST executives 866 cattle in the RAD settlements. Furthermore, there can either use senior staff houses constructed during the are 269 goats owned by RADs in the Sub-District. Founding Development or rent from private market, Madam Speaker, since 2005, a total of four RADs students including the Botswana Housing Corporation. have graduated from University programme, that is, two Madam Speaker, the PPP (Phase 2) is expected to at Botswana College of Agriculture in 2007 and two at provide 60 per cent of staff housing and the rest is to the University of Botswana. A total of 28 other RADs be provided by the local private market. Thank You. students graduated from other tertiary institutions.

220 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

To address several Social, cultural and institutional This is important because it enhances the overall value of impediments that have retarded full potential of Government assets. Whilst paying allowances may seem RADP, my Ministry commissioned a Task Force in an attractive and simple option, it brings with it uncertainty March this year to review the impact of RADP on the in the long run in that rentals appreciate over time and livelihoods of the Remote Area Dwellers and I hope these would be beyond the control of Government. their recommendations will assist us refocus and derive full potential of the Programme. I thank you. Madam Speaker, on maintenance costs, it is a standard practice to assume maintenance costs to be five per MR G. SALESHANDO: Dipalo tse tsa four le 28, a di cent of the rental value of the property. It is therefore a go kgotsofatsa Tona gore di siame? anticipated that the maintenance costs for the houses would be minimal in the first ten years as the houses MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Member, simolola are still new and therefore affordable. gape you were a bit inaudible. Madam Speaker, given the above scenarios, I consider MR G. SALESHANDO: Dipalo tsa ba ba feditseng building the houses a long term and worthwhile kwa UB le tertiary institutions tse dingwe, a di a go investment which is more sustainable than awarding kgotsofatsa gore ke progress e e siameng? housing allowances to incumbent Ministers. I thank MR RAMMIDI: Nnyaa Motlotlegi, ga di nkgotsofatse you Madam Speaker. Rraetsho. Ke sone se ke reng re a sekaseka gore re MR REATILE: Madam Speaker, ke ne ke re gongwe bone gore re ka kgona gore re tlhabolole maduo a rona Tona e re a sa ntse a le fa, a tle a re tlhalosetse. Ka ka tsela e ntseng jang. gore go a lebosega gore matlo a bo a tsweletse a agiwa, BUILDING MINISTERS’ HOUSES mme re lebeletse ditshenyegelo tse di ka tswang di nna teng mo rent, fa e le gore re ka ba hirisetsa. Jaanong MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): potso e ke neng ke re ke e botse ke gore, a mme matlo a asked the Minister for Presidential Affairs and Public e a re fa re sena go a aga a lekanye Matona, a go tlaa bo Administration to state:- go patelesega gore Tona mongwe le mongwe jaanong a ye go nna kwa ntlong e re mo e agetseng, kana ba tla i) the rationale behind building Ministers’ houses a bo ba ntse ba na le tshwanelo ya gore ba ka nna kwa instead of paying them housing allowance; and matlong a bone re bo re ba neela allowances?

ii) whether the Minister considers these costs MADAM SPEAKER: Good question. Honourable sustainable, given maintenance costs over a Minister do you have the answer? development plan period. MS MOTSUMI: I think I do Madam Speaker. Once MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS AND the houses are made available to Honourable Ministers, PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MS MOTSUMI): they are expected to occupy them. If the Minister Thank you Madam Speaker. Madam Speaker, it is a decides not to occupy a ministerial house, they can long standing tradition in Government that Cabinet do so but they forfeit housing allowance. Thank you Ministers are provided with official residence. In 2007 Madam Speaker. it was realised that the stock of ministerial houses, some of which were build in the early 70s were too old IMPEDIMENT TOWARDS CITIZEN and inhabitable and that it would be too expensive to ECONOMIC EMPOWERMENT perform restorative maintenance on them. Government therefore took a decision through Presidential Directive MR D. P. MAKGALEMELE (SHOSHONG): asked CAB 22 (b)/2007 to build official residences for the Minister of Finance and Development Planning Honourable Ministers. whether:-

The rationale behind this approach is that even after a i) he is aware that jealousy amongst Batswana Minister leaves office for whatever reason, the house was highlighted as a key impediment for citizen would immediately be available for occupation by the economic empowerment during the 1999 next Minister. citizen empowerment workshop and subsequent business forums; Madam Speaker, the building of Ministerial houses is considered a sustainable option given that the cost of ii) this remains a key impediment towards citizen construction is once off expenditure and the house is an economic empowerment given that the former asset that has an appreciating value over a period of time. President talked about this unfortunate scenario

Hansard No 163 Part 4 221 Friday 9th April, 2010 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

referring to it in various State of the Nation Committee of Cabinet and thereafter to Cabinet. If it is Addresses as “pull him/her down syndrome” approved by Cabinet, I shall be happy to present it to (PHD), further urging us to compete as a team; and this Honourable House for consideration. I thank you Madam Speaker. iii) the Minister sees this as a challenge and what creative measures is he taking to ensure that MR MASITARA: Thank you Madam Speaker. Thank Batswana support each other as a nation towards you Mr Makgalemele for that question. Honourable economic empowerment, given that rural areas Minister, ke ne ke kopa gore ke bue ka Setswana. are small societies that need to work together to move towards prosperity. MADAM SPEAKER: Let me just remind you Honourable Member my friend. You have a question, MINISTER OF FINANCE AND DEVELOPMENT just put the question in Setswana or whatever language, PLANNING (MR MATAMBO): Madam Speaker, o seka wa bua, o botse. I am aware that jealousy amongst Batswana was highlighted as one of the impediments for citizen MR MASITARA: Honourable Minister, a o dumalana le economic empowerment, during the 1999 citizen nna gore fa re ka tlogela tshele e tswelela mo go goromente, economic empowerment workshop and subsequent a o lemoga gore golo mo can derail the government’s efforts business fora. While it still remains a concern, jealousy tsa economic development? A o a lemoga gape Honourable I am afraid is something that is difficult to assess and Minister gore tshele e kgona go dira gore batho ba ba sa address. And I would hope that we would not allow the tshwanelang gore ba fiwe ditiro tsa ga goromente, ba felela perception of its existence, to become an obsession that ba di bona mme ba sena bokgoni? masks the positive effort that has been undertaken in the MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Member that is promotion and implementation of the citizen economic a point of debate. It should be a supplementary, very empowerment programmes. Indeed, the former President brief and to the point. Mogae used to highlight the concern in the various State of the Nation Addresses. We can only hope that the MR MASITARA: I am asking questions Madam message has been well received and that we will avoid Speaker. Gore gape Honourable Minister, a o bona the Pull Him/Her Down (PHD) syndrome by changing botlhokwa jwa gore re rute bana ba rona kwa sekoleng, our mindset and attitude towards each other. we must build them gore ba itse gore competition e e positive is constructive? Madam Speaker, it is still important to note that it is not only jealousy amongst Batswana that could impede MADAM SPEAKER: Thank you Honourable Member. citizen economic empowerment. Evidence shows that They seem too many but there are very brief. the country still faces a considerable shortage of people MR MATAMBO: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo with skills, experience and aptitude for private sector tsa Palamente. Honourable Member, ke ne ke itheile ka development. This is why Government is investing re ke tla a re ke araba ke re ee ke a lemoga. Jaanong so heavily in Education and Skills Development. In you have mentioned so many questions. I am not sure addition, there is need to create an enabling environment jaanong gore ke a lemoga. Having been said, let me say which will promote ownership, management and control my understanding was not so much that jealousy is a of the economy. It is important for Batswana to project problem restricted to government activities. Kutlwisiso the necessary confidence and to assert themselves for ya me e ne e le gore problem ya lefufa, tshele jaaka o e self empowerment to ensure that continuous lamentation bua, ke ya lefatshe leno, not just government but jaaka does not become a counterproductive factor. ke ne ke bua, ke a lemoga gore fa e ka tswelela e ka nna It is against this background, Madam Speaker, that my mathata. That is why I am saying that all of us should Ministry appointed Tsa Badiri Consultancy in 2007 to endeavour to change mind set, ga se gore e siame. That is undertake a review of citizen economic empowerment why ke re ke tla a tla ka policy ya citizen empowerment. programmes and policies in the country, with a view I hope we can all promote it and forget tshele and move to generating a comprehensive citizen economic forward with a positive mind. Thank you. empowerment strategy and policy framework for MR MAKGALEMELE: Thank you Madam Speaker. Botswana. From the Consultancy report, my Ministry I just wanted to appreciate from the Minister that given prepared a draft Citizen Economic Empowerment the seriousness of jealousy and its impact on citizen Policy. However, because of the period that has elapsed economic empowerment, would he consider doing an before approval, my Ministry is currently in the process in-depth study on this problem so as to ascertain how of updating the original draft and I shall in due course be the problem can be attended to? presenting the updated draft of the policy to Economic

222 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR MATAMBO: Thank you Madam Speaker and In 2005, the African Union endorsed the use of Honourable Member. I am afraid on this one I have DDT for disease control, and later reaffirmed to answer in the negative. It is not my intention to by the SADC Ministers of Health. To date, all undertake a study let alone a tracer study because as I but one SADC Member State (Angola) are using have said in my original answer, this is a concept that DDT for Malaria Control. others would say it is a nebulous concept but in my answer, I said it is difficult to assess. Nevertheless we iii. The spraying of houses follows strict World are doing the best we can to try to address it, but it is Health Organisation (WHO) guidelines which difficult to assess. We are not intending to do a study. recommend the safe use of insecticides in the Thank you. control of vector-borne diseases. In line with the guidelines protective clothing is provided and used MADAM SPEAKER: Thank you Minister. We left by trained spray persons to reduce occupational Honourable Nshimwe’s questions, I wonder if he has exposure. Food, water and household utensils are deputed anybody. removed from the houses to avoid contamination and residents are requested not to enter freshly MR ARONE: Yes Madam Speaker. I do not know sprayed houses for at least 1 hour to limit intake what happened, I would have. by inhalation. DDT is sprayed indoors only and MADAM SPEAKER: No, you did nothing wrong. this limits contamination to animals and the Botsa dipotso fela comrade. environment. I thank you.

USE OF DDT FOR CONTROL OF TABLING OF PAPER MOSQUITOES The following paper was tabled:-

MR G. R. M. NSHIMWE (CHOBE): asked the STATUTORY INSTRUMENT NO. 34 OF 2010: Minister of Health:- BOTSWANA INNOVATION HUB FUND ORDER, i) why Government has allowed the use of DDT for 2010. control of mosquitoes, when the chemical has been (Minister of Finance and Development Planning) discontinued internationally because it carries huge health risks such as birth defects; and TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH ii) what protective measures have been taken to prevent its impact on inhabitants of areas being Motion sprayed, animals and workers tasked with spraying the chemical. (Resumed Debate)

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH (MR MR MABILETSA (KGATLENG EAST): Thank MATLHABAPHIRI): Madam Speaker, you Madam Speaker. Ke ne ke supile ka fa ke neng ke eme nokeng mosutisi wa kgang ka teng mo puong i) The use of DDT has been discontinued ya gagwe. E le gore tota se ke neng ke tsweletse ke se internationally for many uses but not for bua ke botlhokwa jwa mafoko a mararo a mosutisi wa public health purposes. Its use in the control mogopolo a neng a a kwadile mo kgannyeng ya gagwe, of malaria is still recommended by leading a a nang le tlhaloso e ke tsayang gore tota e ne e supa international organizations like the World matshwenyego a gagwe ka seemo sa banana. Madam Health Organization who state that provided Speaker, sengwe sa dilo tse di ntshwentseng thata basic safety measures are put in place the use of maabane fa Tona a bua, go ne go lebega fa e le gore o DDT is safe for humans. My Ministry suspended ikaegile thata ka dipalo tsa Population Census ya 2001. the use of this chemical in 1997 not because of Tse e leng gore mo go nna for monitoring purposes ya any ill effects associated with it but because youth occupation, ke nngwe ya dilo tse e leng gore di all reputable manufacturers had closed down kwa morago tota, you cannot rely on them. E re di ka therefore making it difficult to source it.Several go fa information ka sone sebaka seo le gore tota mme studies have been undertaken over the years to seemo se ne se ntse jang kana se tswelela se ntse jang, investigate the potential adverse effects of DDT mme nna se ke bonang se le botlhokwa ke gore, gongwe on humans, but not a single study unequivocally even besides the next census, ministry wa gagwe fela proved that appropriate use of DDT is harmful ka boone, se tota mosutisi wa mogopolo a ka bong a se to people or “carries huge health risks”. bua, e le gore gongwe se ne se ka dumalana le mo, ke

Hansard No 163 Part 4 223 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

monitoring. Ene o bua ka tracer study, mme monitoring sengwe se a se buang se tshwanetse sa reediwa ka kelotlhoko yone e tlaa go raya e re at every level you need to monitor gore a ruri o tla a e dira tracer study e kana nnyaa. Ke gone gore the youth when they graduate, ba tswa ba ya kae, ka mo ke sa ba boneng phoso Mokaulengwe. Le tsa gago ba felela fa kae, ba dira eng. Ba ba nang le occupation Mokaulengwe, o di baya fa godimo ga tafole gore se o sa ba kae, ba ba senang occupation ba kae, those who are se batleng kana se o se batlang ka motion wa ga Motlotlegi loitering ba kae, ba ba mo ditoronkong ba kae, jalo jalo. Makgalemele ke eng. Ke seemo se e leng gore ke ne ke akantse gore e kare Minister jaaka maabane a ne a bua le rona… MR MMOLOTSI: Point of procedure. Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke ne ke re MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE ke botse gore, on a point of procedure, with regard to (MR KGATHI): Point of clarification. Madam Speaker, motions, jaaka the one on the floor. Fa Tona a lebega a ke ne ke re ke tlhalose kgang ya Mokaulengwe a bua ka le negative, go dirwa jang? Fa a lebega a le negative statistics sa 2001. Go normal, go dirwa jalo gore dipalo mme o bona gore negativity e is an impediment mo go tse di duleng ka census jaaka ya 2001 le e e tla a tlang ya reng motion o tswelele, go dirwa jang? 2011, ke tsone tse e leng gore go itebaganngwa le tsone. E bile fa godimo ga moo, go na le inter-census count MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Member, tebego e e leng gore e a dirwa ya households. Jaanong, tota ga se kgang mo Ntlong e, kgang fela ke gore fa Tona ga go na sepe se se abnormal to refer to the statistics. a sa dumalane le motion, o tshwanetse go bua gore ga That is why go na le provision ya gore policies must be a dumalane le one. Ga go emise Ntlo e gore yone e reviewed every now and then. tswelele, Bakaulengwe ba bue ka fa bone ba bonang ka teng. Kana kwa bofelong, tota fela selo se se tona MR MABILETSA: Madam Speaker, ke amogetse ke gore re tlile go tlhopha jang. Ga re a leba gore yole botlhokwa jwa gore census e ka dira eng, le relevance o lebega jang, yole ga a lebege jang. ya gore statistics sa census se ka dira eng. Ke amogetse gone moo. Fa o le the Minister responsible for youth MR MABILETSA: Thank you Madam Speaker. affairs, tota ntwa kgatlhanong le mathata a banana, ke Kgang e ke neng ke e bua ke gore, in between census go tlhomamisa gore ba na le empowerment, a ba mo go botlhokwa gore Minister ene a bo a ntse a na le dikoleng botlhe, mo ditirong, a ba na le occupation dipalo tsa gagwe tsa monitoring. Fa a na le dipalo tsa nngwe fela e ba e dirang, e e leng gore ke e e ka go monitoring, e kare re bua le ene mo Ntlong e, a kgona supegetsang gore o a lwa e bile o fenya ntwa kgatlhanong go re sedimosetsa gore ntwa kgatlhanong le lehuma o a le lehuma. Ke sone se ke reng, fa o dira jalo, in between e fenya kana ga a e fenye. Kana the whole issue here ke the census you monitor and you can only monitor in lehuma la banana, empowerment or lack of it against terms of the latest statistics to determine whether you the youth. Ke gone tota fela fa moono wa kgang o are winning or losing. Ke yone kgang e e neng e le leng teng. Fa e le gore o ka ikaega fela ka statistics gore ke batla gore Minister a e tlhaloganye. that are more than 10 years old, go utlwisa botlhoko. Monitoring e tla a bo e le gore tota ga e yo. MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): On HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of clarification. a point of procedure Madam Speaker. Ke a leboga MR MABILETSA: Sengwe sa dilo tse ke di lemogileng Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. O kare re tla a gape, ke tsaya gore mogopolo o wa ga Motlotlegi tsena mo thaelesegong ya gore re bo re araba kakgelo Makgalemele o ne o le right. Ke gore, fa a bua a ya ga Tona, e se ene mong wa tshutiso e e leng fa pele ga lebisa Tona gore tsaya kgato e ya tracer study o nne le Palamente. Tshutiso ke ya ga Motlotlegi Makgalemele, statistics, the Minister refers him to other departments, Bakaulengwe fa re bua, a re a mo tlatsa kana re ganana a re fa o batla se o ka ya kwa Ministry of Health, fa o nae. Ke bona e kete line e re tsenyeng mo go yone, ga batla se o ka ya kwa, jalo jalo. Ke gore, ene monitoring se Honourable Mabiletsa fela, le ba ba buileng pele ga ya gagwe ke gone fa ke bonang e le gore tota go lebega e gagwe, o kare jaanong re araba kakgelo e e letseng e le gore e a tlhaela. Kana you can monitor ka dipalo, you dirwa ke Tona maabane. Ke ne ke tsaya gore o kare mo can manage relying on up to date statistics to determine tsamaisong jaanong re sutile mo tshutisong ya mong whether you are winning or losing the battle. wa yone, Mmaetsho. MADAM SPEAKER: I think that one they have MADAM SPEAKER: Order! Order! I have to make a heard it, Honourable Member, otherwise you are ruling here, Honourable Members. Ke batla gore, kana running a danger of being repetitive. Honourable mathata ke gore Tona fa a buile, ke ene mong wa tracer Minister wanted a clarification. Le wena o re busetsa study. Fa e le gore re tsaya podi motlhalo gore tracer study kwa morago Honourable Minister. e e ye go dirwa, ke ene a yang go e dira. Jalo he, sengwe le

224 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE face particular difficulties in Botswana society. They (MR KGATHI): Nnyaa, ke batla go tlhalosa dilo experience levels of unemployment that are higher tse ka gore di felela di tsena mo setshabeng e se than their male counterparts and they tend to have boammaaruri. Monitoring ga e tshwane le se motion o fewer occupational opportunities. The high number se kopang. Motion wa re, “tracer study”. Jaanong fa o of teenage pregnancies that can be found in Botswana re, ‘monitoring’, you are discussing a different one. also suggests that young women require specific support measures in this regard”. Ke recognition ya MR MABILETSA: Ga a a nthusa ka sepe. Ke gore mathata a teng a a gwetlhileng gore mogopolo o tshwanetse ke amogele lebaka le le lengwe le Tona a wa ga Motlotlegi Makgalemele a bo a o lerile fano. le buileng maabane, segolo jang a bua in relation to kgang e ya tracer study ka mananeo a lephata la gagwe Quotation ya bofelo ka bokhutshwanyana gape ke bo ka fa lekang ka teng. Fa o tsaya ka fa mananeo a gagwe jaanong ke nna fa fatshe. Section 6.2, Unemployed a ntseng ka teng le gore Policy e a neng a e dirisa thata Young People, this is what the Policy has to say, maabane a ntse a re bolelela gore ke yone konokono, “The experience of unemployment can bring with it e amogela mathata mangwe a a rileng mo bananeng a a number of other social ills including participation e leng gore a apesitse setshaba sa lefatshe la Botswana in crime, drug and alcohol abuse, poor health and kobo ka letshoba, segolo jang banana ba bomme le loss of confidence to participate in broader society. banana ba ba mo dikgaolong. Fa o ntetla Tona mma ke Thus unemployed young people require attention of nopole fela sengwe se ke tsayang gore tota Tona o itse government and non-government agencies to deal with mathata mme tota ga a na mananeo a a nonofileng a go the wide range of concerns and problems that they can dira gore gongwe mogopolo o tshwana le o o ka bo o experience”. Lebaka lone le Madam Speaker ke lone se fa pele ga Ntlo. Ke kopa gore o mphe tetla ya gore tota fela le le supang gore moono wa mogopolo o wa ke nopole. Ke yone National Youth Policy ya February ga Motlotlegi Makgalemele, e re mananeo a puso a 1996. Mo nngweng ya dilo tse a di buang e le page 21, le teng, a boYoung Farmers Fund, a eng, a eng, mme paragraph 6.5 Madam Speaker... mathata a, we do not seem to be winning the war.

ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND Tona fa a ne a bua maabane nna ke ne ke tsere gore SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): On a gongwe o tla a leka go re tlhalosetsa gore nnyaa mme point of order Madam Speaker. Ka boikokobetso Madam le fa e bile go ntse jalo, se re se lekang re kgona go Speaker tota Ntlo e e maruru mo e leng gore le Motlotlegi felela fa, jalo jalo. Ke batla go lebogela Tona selo se a bua se se botlhokwa, ga re sa tlhola re mo utlwa, le sengwe Madam Speaker. O kile a etela kgaolo ya ditsebe le dilo di a opa. Re kopa gore o re kopele gore ba me maloba. Ka maswabi, ka tlhoka go nna le ene. thuthafatse. Ke gore ba baakanye go le gonyenyane, re tle A supa mananeo ka fa banana ba kgaolo ya me ba a re reetse Motlotlegi jaaka a bua botlhale jaana. tshwereng ka teng mo e leng gore ka fa a neng a supa ka teng mananeo a ba a lekang ke a go amogela. Fela se MADAM SPEAKER: E utlwetse mogolo, ba tla a se ntshwenyang ke gore ka fa a neng a mpolelela gore dira. nnyaa projects tsa banana di ntse ka teng, ga a a supa MR MABILETSA: Ke setse ke supile gore ke nopola go nna analytical in giving information e e relevant. Le mo paragraph 6.5 kana section 6.5, e e reng, Young gore a mme tota ntwa kgatlhanong le mathata a re ntseng People and Crime. Yone ya re, “Whilst the National re a bua a unemployment le mathata a a farologanyeng, Youth Policy recognises that there are a number of a golo gongwe re ya go fitlha teng. Ka go nne go ya factors which can lead young people into crime and ka Population Statistics sa 2001 Census, banana mo violence and the need for preventative action in these kgaolong ya Kgatleng fela as a whole ke 26 860. Mo areas. There is also a need to assist young people who bukaneng e Tona a neng a e mpha, projects tse banana are exhibiting delinquent tendencies. This can include ba di dirang tsa bocar wash, dikokwanyana fale jalo jalo, provision of specific oriented correctional facilities these small projects di 53. Se ke se buang ke gore out and development of counselling and support services”. of this 53, Tona ga a kgone gore o ka go raya a re mme Quotation e Madam Speaker ke ya gore Ministry wa 53 ya projects tse employment creation e di e dirileng ke gagwe o lemoga gore re na le mathata a a tshwanang bokana. In other words, he is only monitoring gore ke le a. That thing ke a se amogela gore ke sengwe sa dilo ntshitse...(inaudible)...gore a mananeo a effective, kana... tse di tshwenyang. interruption... Ke gone fa e leng gore ke na le mathata teng a a mpateletsang gore ke dumalane le gore Tona Go na le another quote e ke batlang go e dira gape must come to recognise gore monitoring in line with briefly Madam Speaker from the same document. tracer study e e buiwang ke Motlotlegi Makgalemele is Ke 6.1 e e buang ka Young Women. “Young women a thing that he must follow.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 225 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR RAKHUDU: On a point of clarification Madam Skills Development. There is monitoring. That is why Speaker. Ke reeditse Mokaulengwe jaaka a ala there is percentage which is 11 per cent e e supang the botswerere. Ke ne ke re mme gore re seka ra tloga ra missing children. Ke yone e e leng gore o tshwanetse timetsanya, gongwe a tlhalose, fa a na le gone gore, gore o nne concerned ka yone fa o bua ka children who palo e a neng a e bala ya banana ba Kgatleng ka nako are supposed to be in education. e e neng e begwa, a e ne e le ya banana botlhe fela go tsenngwa le ba ba leng mo sekoleng. A mme le gone MR MABILETSA: Ke wena Tona yo o tshwanetseng fa go ntse jalo a go na le fa go ka supegang gore ba ba gore o bo o nonotsha banana. Jaanong o le Tona yo o neng ba se mo sekoleng rather ba kae mo palong yone tshwanetseng go bo o nonotsha banana, fa re bua ka eo ka nako e e neng e begwa, fa e le gore o na le yone kgang e e tshwanang le e, statistics tsa gore the missing fa o sena nayo ga go na molato. children bao, ke bone tota ba e leng gore o tshwanetse o ka bo o ikepetse gone foo. Ka gore ba ba kwa, fair MR MABILETSA: The import ya side remark ya gore enough, o ne o tla a bo o itse gore ba kae. Ba e leng gore fa e le gore yone, ke yone ke yone e e supang tota gore they are the missing, this is where the concern is really. monitoring ya statistics e botlhokwa. It must not be overemphasised jaaka ke bua gore e botlhokwa. Jaaka Madam Speaker, go tlhoka go go senyetsa nako ya gago e o bua Tona, dipalo tse ke go di supegetsang tse ke ne ntsi, tota mogopolo o ke tsaya gore o botlhokwa thata gore ke di tsaya mo pegong e ya Youth yone ya Ministry wa Ntlo e e o amogele. Ke rotloetsa Ntlo e e tlotlegang e gore gago. Gape ba na le publication e ba e dirang ka banana e eme kgatlhanong le Tona ya gore mogopolo o re o gane village by village. Ke tsone my source of information. ka gore mogopolo o o na le far reaching implications mo Se ke batlang go se bua jaaka ke ne ke tsena mo ntlheng bokamosong jwa banana ba rona fa re ka o fetisa. Ka gore e ke gore, jaaka ke bua ka monitoring, fa re ne re itse ke bona o kare Tona ga go lebege a na le maikaelelo a a gore annually mo bananeng ba ba tswang mo dikoleng, nonofileng a gore a ntshe banana ba rona mo mathateng ba ba fetsang Standard 7 ba ya kwa go Form 1, out of a gompieno re nang le one. Despite mananeo a a teng a palo e, fa e le gore gongwe ke 60 000, ke bokae out of 60 e leng gore tota nna ga ke bone a kgona. Ke fela gore 000 ba ba felelelang ba ya go simolola Form 1? From Goromente o dira sengwe. The resource allocations Tona Form 3 to Form 4 ke bokae? From Form 5 to tertiary ga... inaudible ... resources di nne teng. Ka a le kalo ke bokae? Ba ba tsenang mo ditirong ke bokae?. Fa e Madam Speaker I support the motion. ne e le gore this information e ne e nna teng I do not MR KWELAGOBE (MOLEPOLOLE SOUTH): think gore the need for the tracer study e e buiwang ke Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente Motlotlegi Makgalemele mo mogopolong wa gagwe, e gore o bo o mphile sebaka se sa gore ke akgele mo ka bo e ile ya nna teng. Ka gore ga go na monitoring tshutisong e. Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, Tona, the operative word for Tona ke monitoring. Tona ke dumalana le motion o thata. Tradition ya rona mo is not monitoring. O beile fela mo other departments Ntlong e le Goromente wa rona, ke go dira studies. Le gore ba dire. I am saying this is where we are losing the fa o ka tsaya yone National Development Plan (NDP war on the problems of youth. 10) ya maloba re e fetisa fa, ga se ka studies mo teng MR KGATHI: Madam Speaker, ke patikesega go moo. Le fa o ka tsaya yone Budget yone e, Matona ba tlhalosa ka gore, o kare Mokaulengwe ga a tlhaloganye ba neng ba ntse ba bua fa ka Budget ke studies fela se a batlang go se tlhalosa gore ke bokoa. Ba Ministry mo teng. Project nngwe le nngwe ke study. Jaanong of Education and Skills Development, ba itse bana ba ga ke itse gore motion o, o ntsha mokola fa go rileng ba tshwanetseng go tswa mo Junior Certificate into fa gotwe go dirwe study. Ke gore ke la ntlha ke utlwa Senior Secondary, the transition rates are known. Goromente yo wa rona, a le mo Palamenteng e ya rona, Jaanong ke sone se ke reng... a bifela gore gotwe go ye go dirwa study.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Gatwe out of school. MR KESUPILE: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Thank you Madam Speaker. Honourable MR KGATHI: I am responding to the question that Member, would you explain how many of those studies he is raising. that you made reference to are tracer studies?

MADAM SPEAKER: Concentrate on responding MR KWELAGOBE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Honourable Member. Palamente, ke bua ka study. Fa, ke itse gore tlhogo ya mafoko ke ‘tracer study’. Jaanong ga se gore e tla a MR KGATHI: So, Honourable Member kindly re fa ke bua ka study, ke bo ke re jaanong study se se appreciate gore fa o batla information ya transition neng se ya go tlhotlhomisa gore a mashi a a lekana mo rates, it is available from the Ministry of Education and lefatsheng le yone se dirilwe leng.

226 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

Jaanong Madam Speaker, ke ne ke re go ya go dira MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Members, ditlhotlhomiso tse subject e Mokaulengwe a tlang ka maikaelelo a me ga se gore jaanong re tseye Ntlo e yone... re bo re emisa ditsamaiso tsa yone because people cannot agree on something. Ke kopo ya me fela gore a MR TSOGWANE: A o batla order jaanong? re neelaneng bagaetsho. And Honourable Kwelagobe, MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Tsogwane, it is up do not persist on that line because the danger is that, to the Member on the floor to agree to your intervention. go tloga gotwe re dissolve Ntlo re ye go bona Hansard. Proceed Honourable Kwelagobe. That is a waste of time really. Tswelela ka mogopolo wa gago fela o gane kana o dumele jaaka o re o a MR KWELAGOBE: Jaanong Madam Speaker, ke dumela. O bo o tsamaya. sone se ke reng ke palelwa ke gore re bo re ema fela re re re a gana. E le gore re gana re lebaganye le mathata MR KWELAGOBE: Nnyaa, mme se ke neng ke se a a tsitsibanyang mmele. Mathata a go tlhoka go itse bua Madam Speaker, ke gore fela batho ba bua dilo go gore bana ba ba seng mo sekoleng kana ba ba duleng tswa fa ba a di itatola. Gompieno o ntse a bua a re.. mo sekoleng, mathata a ba lebaganyeng nao ka fa ntle MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Kwelagobe, I have mo lefatsheng, a go bona ditiro le tse dingwe tse di said stay away from that point, debate your motion and buiwang ke motion, a kana ka eng. Gompieno, Madam move on please. Speaker, re ntsha madi ra re ke a Out of School Youth, a mangwe ke a Young Farmers’ Fund. Ke gore, we are ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND just throwing money at a problem, the magnitude of SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): On a which we do not know. Jaanong se se lekang go buiwa point of order Madam Speaker. Ke a go leboga Madam fa ke gore, ee, a e re fa re tsweletse one madi a re ntse Speaker. Fa Honourable Kwelagobe a ka letlelelwa re a ntsha, mme a re bo re itse gore tota mathata a re to ascribe mafoko a e seng one on the strength of his lebaganyeng le one a botona bokae. Jaanong Tona o letse debate, go le on record jaaka re bua jaana, then the a ntse a bua maabane, a bo a gakolola Mokaulengwe House risks being out of order. I propose Madam Mopalamente wa Shoshong gore ke eng a ne a sa dirise Speaker that he should withdraw words he is ascribing Youth Council go dira tsone ditlhotlhomiso tse. to the Minister because it is wrong and he knows it is wrong. Otherwise it stays in the records and I propose HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ke bua kae? that those words be expunged off the Hansard.

MR KWELAGOBE: Maabane fa. Ke tla a ya go tsaya MADAM SPEAKER: I am sure Honourable Kwelagobe Hansard fa o ganela. you can debate your motion. You can put across your MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Member, proceed point of view without necessarily driving this House to a with your debate. halt. Jaanong my advice to you is that, you just withdraw whatever you said about Rre Kgathi because he says he MR KWELAGOBE: Jaanong o ne a bua fa a raya did not say it. If we persist he said that, that means you Mokaulengwe gore, ke eng ka gore o ne a le mo Youth should go and prove it and really this is the last day. Do Council, a ne a sa e dirise. Potso ya me ke gore, ene ka o... we have the time to do that? Really Rre Kwelagobe, a ke yone kgang e o e tletseng fa kana nnyaa. Nna ke ne ke re MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE withdraw and move on, please. (MR KGATHI): Procedure, Madam Speaker. MR KWELAGOBE: Madam Speaker, I withdraw MADAM SPEAKER: No, you cannot decide that mafoko a Mokaulengwe a itseng gore le fa ntle fa o a one. O ka nna wa gana fela fa ba batla to explain. But buile fa. you cannot refuse procedure, Honourable Kwelagobe. Jaanong mma ke tswelele. Ka re ga re ka ke ra tswelela MR KWELAGOBE: Nnyaa, mo Standing Orders ga throwing good money at a problem e re sa itseng e compulsory. He says procedure. magnitude wa yone. Honourable Makgalemele o tla MR KGATHI: Madam Speaker, the reason why I ka mogopolo o o reng, a go ye go dirwa study sone am standing on a point of procedure ke gore, tota it seo kana ditlhotlhomiso tsone tseo. Re tle re itse gore is unprocedural gore the Honourable Member a bue re rwele bokete jo bo kana ka eng jwa bana ba ba sa mafoko a ke sa a buang in this House. I have not asked tseneng dikole, ba go senang gore ba bona ditiro kana Rre Makgalemele to go and use the Youth Council, a ba ka tweng jaaka Mokaulengwe a gakolola. Jaanong dire tracer study. Even if go ka ya go tsewa Hansard, I ga ke bone gore a go ka emiwa fela go bo gotwe re gane have not said that. You were out. go amogela mogopolo ka gore census dingwe di kile

Hansard No 163 Part 4 227 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

tsa re. Ka gore motion o, ga o a baya time limit e bile able to provide the question sought on the livelihood ga o a bolela gore go simololwe leng. Ke eng fa Tona objectives for the youth in the Shoshong constituency. a ka seka a bona gore nnyaa, go a tshwanela gore mme So certainly, the information is not there. gone ee, mo lebakeng study se se tshwanetse gore se dirwe. Le gone gape ka gore bone ba na le resources le MR KGATHI: Procedure. The procedure is if the tsa go tlhoba bojang mo, ke eng fa a sa dire gore youth Honourable Member is making reference to a response offices tse go tulweng di tla a nna in all constituency, ke to this Parliament, he cannot paraphrase it because eng ba sa di dirise. Ke eng ba sa dire a questionnaire, he is not citing the response within context. So to the ba e kwala sentle ka botswerere ya bo e neelwa youth people listening out there, it means indeed information offices. Ya re ba ba tlhagolang majang, e bo e le bone was not there. So he is out of procedure by quoting out jaanong ba tsamayang mo constituencies tsone tse, ba of context. leka go latedisa gore bana ba kae. Go tladiwa yone... MADAM SPEAKER: No, no. Honourable Member, he MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE is allowed to paraphrase. Fa e le sengwe o ka bo o ema (MR KGATHI): Ke a leboga, Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo fela o re no, he left out this bit but as for paraphrasing, tsa Palamente. Ke ne ke re ke clarify point ya gore, it is very much allowed. Honourable Kwelagobe, can fa Honourable Member wa Molepolole South a re you just draw this thing to some conclusion? Government is throwing money at a problem re sa e itse, MR KWELAGOBE: Ke ne ke eletsa go dumalana it is not true. We know the number of unemployed youth nao Madam Speaker, jaanong dikgang tse di fa, di dintsi in this country. We know the number of young people mme mma ke tswelele. Ke bue fela ka gore nnyaa, Tona by eight categories that are affected by HIV/AIDS. So o re boleletse gore go kgobokanya information e go all the programmes designed for health through all the thata, jaanong fa a sena go nna a rialo, gompieno a re various NGOs; we have the statistics, we know. information e teng. Jaanong, ke tsone dilo tse e leng gore MADAM SPEAKER: Honourable Kwelagobe, tla rona di re kgoba marapo. Tona o ka bo ka kitso ya gagwe kwa motsubong. ya bonana, jo re sa bo boneng bo re thusa ka sepe, a dira gore, a dumalane le gore go ye go dirwa ditlhotlhomiso. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. Ke ne ke santse ke mo gakolola gore, go na le youth MADAM SPEAKER: R re Kwelagobe has not taken the offices mo. O ka dira a questionnaire e e ka neelwang floor, what are you elucidating? Honourable Members, these youth officers, ya bo e re bangwe ba batho ba ba pay attention please. Ke na le pelaelo gore golo fa kgetlang bojang ba, ba bo ba dirisiwa go dira ditiro tse jaanong dilo di itsamaisa sesole kana di gaufi le go Constituency by Constituency. Go itsiwe gotwe bana ba itsamaisa sesole. Jaanong Honourable Makgalemele, ba duleng mo sekoleng ba kae, ba dira eng, tsa botshelo the person holding the floor is Honourable Kwelagobe, tsa bone ke eng tse e leng gore ba di tshwere? Jaanong, you have to wait for him to resume his floor and then go tla fela fa Tona a tswa mo nokeng ya Motloutse e le you can elucidate whatever you want to elucidate. gone a re bolelelang stories tse…

MR KWELAGOBE: Madam Speaker, ke gore Tona o MADAM SPEAKER: Nnyaa. nkgoba marapo. Ke swaba nko go feta molomo. O ntse a re raya a re golo mo ga go ka ke ga diragala, golo mo MR KWELAGOBE: Ehe! Sorry Madam Speaker. go na le mathata. Jaanong gompieno a re nnyaa, o na le Jaanong, kana ga go na time limit e e beilweng mo information yotlhe, o tabogela le kwa go reng ya AIDS selong se, Honourable Member ene o batla information le yone o na nayo. fela. Le tsone census tse di tlang, ke eng fa yone tracer study e ka seka ya nna part of the census ka gore, census MR MAKGALEMELE: Elucidation. I thank you e tlile go tsamaya ntlo le ntlwana e batla information? Madam Speaker. I just wanted to elucidate that indeed Di bo di batle le gore yo o letseng fa ke mang? Ga ba Honourable Kwelagobe is right. We certainly do not ka ke ba re ya re ba tsena foo ba botsa gore, ngwana have all the information that is being requested within wa gago yo o sa tseneng sekole ke mang, o kae, o dira the spirit of this motion. For example Madam Speaker, eng? A re re gane motion, mme re o ganela eng, e le on the 18th of March 2010, I did ask a question which gore dilo tse di ka dirwa? was answered. Question No 458 which specifically asked on Shoshong constituency. Tthe Honourable Jaanong Madam Speaker, nna ke rotloetsa le bagaetsho Minister was not able to provide information on ka fa le ka fa ga Ntlo gore, a re dumalaneng le motion Shoshong constituency in terms of the statistics. But o. Tona a ye go leka go bona gore, information e e in addition to that, the Honourable Minister was not tlhokafalang, e e botlhokwa jo bo kana kana jo, e ka bonwa jang ra tla ra kgona gore re e dirise. Rona kwa

228 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate) dikgaolong tsa rona kwa, we are not well resourced, There are a number of questions that have been raised gongwe re ka bo re ntse re itirela. Re tlhokana le yone in this House and I would also give an example of the information e. Re tlhokana le go itse gore bana ba ba question that the Honourable Assistant Minister of kae, ba dira eng le gore ba ka thusiwa jang? E seng Education was answering this morning. If we were gore jaanong re bo re tla fela fa, re bo re tla re re, a re to ask the Honourable Minister the same question ganeng. A go ganwe ka mabaka a a utlwalang, mme now regarding Ngami, he would not have the answer gape a re dumalaneng ka mabaka a a utlwalang. Jaaka because there is no information. He has to go and beg rona re a bua jaana a utlwala gore, ke eng re re go nne for some information somewhere, because it is not le this tracer study. readily available. So, we are simply saying this tracer study would indeed assist us to have answers in terms Ke ne ke bua le gompieno gore, fa o ka tsaya the of statistics readily available and then we can plan Minister’s Ministry, o ya go fitlhela e le gore, there accordingly. are lots of consultancies tse di yang go dira studies. Why can this not be done, mme e le gore studies, HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of consultancies le tse dingwe go a dirwa? Nnyaa, let us clarification Madam Speaker. be fair. Goromente wa rona a re neele information. Fa bone ba na nayo, a ba re e neele rona re le Palamente. MR ARONE: I am not yielding. Re tle le rona re bone gore, re e dirisa jang fela MADAM SPEAKER: He says he is not yielding, jaaka dipalamente tsa mafatshe a mangwe. Ba na le switch off the microphone. information fela e ntsi. Rona ke go nna re tsutlelwa fela, go tswa foo motho o a ema a re nnyaa, a re ganeng. MR ARONE: I am yielding. O gana ene e le mang? Madam Speaker… MADAM SPEAKER: You said you are not yielding. MADAM SPEAKER: Nnyaa, o gana e le Tona, wena HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Gestures)… dumela o le Motlotlegi Rre Kwelagobe. MR ARONE: I have respect for the two mother-figures MR KWELAGOBE: Ka rialo ke raya gore, o gana e le sitting in front of me. Sometimes when they wave I Tona, nna ke dumela ke le Kwelagobe. Ke dumalana le take their command, but anyway I would continue motion. Jaanong Madam Speaker, ka o ka re jaaka o ne o Madam Speaker. Now, I was just moving to the last setse o nepile kwa tshimologong, ke tla a ya go nwa tee, point anyway because I do not believe in… ke nama ke le tlogetse ka sebakanyana se. Ke tla a ema go le kalo Madam Speaker. Ke o ema nokeng. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): On MR ARONE (OKAVANGO): Thank you Madam a point of clarification, Madam Speaker. Ke ne ke re Speaker. I stand to support this motion because it is a Motlotlegi o ntse a bua gore, ke ne ke ka seka ka kgona noble request. It sometimes surprises me Madam Speaker go araba potso nngwe. A re ga ke ka ke ka kgona go in this era, where it is clear those countries that have araba potso efe, ka mabaka a a ntseng jang? developed and those that we admire have done so through research and studies. It is through studies or research that MR ARONE: Sometimes we choose to ignore some of we get specific information that allows us then to plan these questions, because they do not add value to the debate for specific activities or challenges. Now, then it will be that is on the floor. It is totally out. What I was saying counterproductive in this House, if this House can go Madam Speaker is that I completely believe that a tracer against a request that requests Government to try and find study would assist Government to be able to implement information specifically to address youth problems. It is the 1996 Youth Policy that has been lying somewhere clear Madam Speaker in this country that we are having because, some of us can question the implementation. problems in addressing youth challenges. Where we come from there is completely nothing that is going on and young people are suffering. When I went through this document it simply identifies challenges facing youth, but there are no It seems people are confused and do not understand specific solutions or suggestions to what should be exactly what should be done, because as we have done. Therefore, a tracer study to me as I said it in made it clear, if you take for example, the programme a clarification point yesterday, it would then enable e e tshwanang le the Young Farmers Fund, it does Government to implement this Youth Policy. From not address the problem of youth in Okavango. This 1996 the implementation record of this Policy is is because it talks about people owning up to 150 questionable simply because of lack of specific hectares. It means the planner is not aware that young information on certain areas. people in this country do not have land. Therefore,

Hansard No 163 Part 4 229 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

planning in that way is planning for failing. That is the people they intend to target. Then it is a sign of why we are simply saying, carrying out specific studies planners being ill informed somehow. So that is why I would assist us because we are talking about people am saying I personally support this motion, because then having ranches. A planner somewhere in this country it will then inform us on the empowerment requirements does not know that young people in this country do on this people. So that when we plan these programmes, not have ranches. That is why we are simply saying, then we are sure that then they would be targeting the carrying out specific studies targeting young people people that they intend to and assist them. would then enable us to plan like learned people and people who understand the situation on the ground, not With those few remarks I want to also request planning like people who are in heaven planning for Honourable Members in this House to support this some people who are on earth. motion, because it is a noble idea. It will do us more good than harm. Thank you Mr Speaker. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH (MR MATLHABAPHIRI): Ke kopa tlhaloso, Motsamaisa ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke a leboga Motlotlegi GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): I thank you Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke a leboga Mr Speaker. It is my assumption or considered view Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Okavango. E rile fa o bua that the contributions and motions of Members of o rile, Young Farmers Fund e batla gore, monana a bo Parliament are intended to comprehend the work done a na le 150 hectares. Ke re mo go yone fela jaaka e ntse by Ministers. So that in the end our people benefit from jaana, a o ka ne o bonye go kwadilwe mo teng, mme our staying in this House. fa go kwadilwe mo teng, ke fa kae ka gore, o kare ga I have listened very carefully to the presentation made go a nna jalo? by the Honourable mover of this motion and also to the MR ARONE: Honourable Deputy Minister, it might response by the Minister. I think where we are now is not be correct, but there are lots of requirements that that we are at pains to try to get the two to understand these programmes do demand from young people that that they agree to disagree. I think what is most they do not have. That is my contention and that is a sign important between their difference is rather a question of planners who do not understand the people they are of the accent and semantics. Basically what I heard the planning for. So, I am simply saying let us support… Minister saying is that, we do not need to reinvent the wheel. What is intended by this motion is already there. MR REATILE: On a point of elucidation. Ke re kgang I think what is lacking is that the Minister says is already ya 150 hectares e tla a bo e le fela gore ke dilo tse e leng there is probably not packaged in the line of thinking gore ke tsa balemi, mme Mokaulengwe ene o bua e le of the mover of the motion. So, maybe the way the boammaaruri. Requirement yone e teng, mme e le kwa information is packaged is not assisting the Honourable National Master Plan for Arable Agriculture and Dairy Member of Parliament for Shoshong. To be able to do Agriculture (NAMPAAD) e se kwa Young Farmers what he wants to do with the results of the tracer study, Fund (YFF). Tshokolo eo e ntse e teng mo bananeng. with the information the way it is packaged.

MADAM SPEAKER: But he did say Young Farmers MR TSOGWANE: On a point of clarification. Thank Fund. you Mr Speaker. I have been listening attentively listening to what the Honourable Minister is saying. MR ARONE: Thank you Honourable Reatile ... I am taken aback when he says, both the Minister and PROCEEDINGS SUSPENDED FOR the mover are in agreement, it is only a question of APPROXIMATELY 25 MINUTES semantics. Would he take note of what the Honourable Member has just alluded to, even by his questions, to say MR SPEAKER (MR MOATLHODI): When we that there is a discrepancy and lack of information? He broke for refreshments, I am reliably informed that the even gave the example of the Shoshong Constituency Honourable Member for Okavango was holding the on a question which he asked earlier on. Would you floor. just consider that semantics or disagreement in terms of having different facts? MR ARONE: Thank you Mr Speaker. Just to make the last point in reference to the last two words of the MR RAMMIDI: Thank you Honourable Tsogwane. motion, ‘empowerment requirement,’ this is where The Honourable Member of Shoshong says, ‘there is no my contention was in the last point that I was making. information’ and that is the reason why he wants this That when we have programmes in a country, when information through a tracer study. The Minister says, implemented, then you realise that they do not target ‘no, the information is there, it is only that it is not

230 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate) packaged the way the Honourable Member for Shoshong disaggregating information on the basis of place, that wants it.’ For instance, the illustration that was given by is already on board. the Honourable Member is that he wanted information based on Shoshong Constituency and the Minister says, MR RAMMIDI: But Mr Speaker, I want to leave the ‘no, tracer study or no tracer study, we can still get that point of agreements and disagreements and address information’. It is only that the way we have it now is the point of what is it that we want to do or achieve not packaged the way the Honourable Members wanted with the findings of a tracer study. Can we do that with it. What I want to drive at is that, I think what is most the information that we already have. I think what the important is what we want to do ... Member of Parliament here wants to derive is for him to know gore kwa Shoshong how many Out of School MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification. Youth does he have. What is it that they intend to do in Thank you Mr Speaker. The clarification that I want life, so that he could assist him with his planning. If I to sort may be more in the form of elucidation, is just to hear right, the Minister is saying, ‘okay fine, if that is the inform the Honourable Member for Kanye North, that information you want, allow me to it give to you using in the very response that I spoke about earlier on, and another process, that is off the population census.’ if Mr Speaker allows me to quote part of that response by Honourable Member for Bobirwa, Minister of HONOURABLE MEMBER: Which is even cheaper. Youth, Sport and Culture ... MR RAMMIDI: Like one says, it could even be MR SPEAKER: Please do quote. cheaper.

MR MAKGALEMELE: In part the Minister So I am saying, if at the end of the day we can arrive said, “Population projections are done to provide at the same solution why do we have to reinvent the information on total population at District level. wheel? Why do we not just agree that, the concerns Therefore, the latest data for Mahalapye District does of the Member of Parliament for Shoshong are noted not have information on career path and livelihood of by the Minister responsible. I think it will make both Out of School Youth.” our lives easier and it will even assist. I pray and beg the Minister to sit with the Member of Parliament for The clarification that I want to make to Honourable Shoshong to get full presentation of what it is that the Rammidi is that the information that he says is there Member of Parliament for Shoshong wants. How he comprehensively, is not there Honourable Minister. wants it and what he wants to do with it. So that when they advise Statistics Botswana on what information MR RAMMIDI: Gongwe rraetsho ka ke swetswe ke on the youth to bring, then it will serve the purpose that Kgosi maloba. Ke sone se batho ba sa nkutlwe sentle. this motion seeks. I think Sir, without dismissing each I have never said the information is there other, imputing improper motives on each other, what is comprehensively. I have said the Minister says, most important is why we need the information. What ‘information is there, but maybe it is not in the format do we want to do with it, can we get that information that the tracer study would put it’. When I started I by other means. If the Minister commits that ‘yes said, what the Member of Parliament is saying is a indeed we can provide that information’, it is not like welcome development. By so bringing in this motion, dismissing the motion to say, it does not make sense. the Minister has committed, that we do not need a I can see the sense behind the motion, but I would tracer study. We can get the same information that plead with my colleague to say look if we can get a tracer study will provide through other means, if this information by other means why do you not give I may put in that way. The avenue that the Minister that a chance rather than putting in more money to do puts forward is that, it is so fortunate that we are going something that can be done much cheaper, more so that into a population census. He will liaise with Statistics we have been accused before... Botswana to say, ‘during your conduct of the census, can you bring us information that will... MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. I think in all fairness, when I made the MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE presentation I have not defined a methodology to be (MR KGATHI): On a point of elucidation. Mr used in terms of gathering this information. I left it to Speaker, to elucidate the point on which the Honourable the experts to basically look gore given all the necessary Member is raising ke gore, we are actually members resources, the skills, the mechanisms that can be used, of the Reference Team ya Statistics Botswana.Which anything that can be used to drive this information, all is determining the disaggregation pattern and all the what I am asking for is for the principle to be agreed variables. So that has been taken care of including

Hansard No 163 Part 4 231 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

by Parliament to say, “let us agree to undertake a tracer gongwe o kile a ya go disetsa Mokaulengwe mongwe study.” How the Minister wants to undertake it is up kwa Bobonong ba bo ba kgaogana gone koo a bo a nna to him. I have simply provided some suggestions on a sa boele kwa Sorilatholo kwa Kweneng Bophirima re how we can do it at a much cheaper cost like using mo senke re mmone. Re utlwe fa a leng teng re bo re itse constituency offices, Dikgotla etc. le mathata a gagwe. Yo o kileng a se tsena a se tlogela le ene re mo sale morago re mmatle re bo re mmone. MR RAMMIDI: So Sir I see that the sticky point here Fa e le gore o ne a kile a leka bonon-formal ga pala, a is ‘tracer’. This is why I would love to suggest that for tsamaya a ya go leka kwa makgoeng mme a palelwa us not to lose the noble thinking of the Honourable ke madi go boela gae, a kaelelwa kwa Moselekazi kana Member for Shoshong it could probably benefit us kwa Mafikeng re mo senke re mmone re itse seemo more if the Member could sit administratively with the sa gagwe. Ke e tlhaloganya e bua jaana Motsamaisa Minister to debate and discuss this issue rather than Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Jaanong gone foo ke nna le going through a motion that might be misunderstood by bothatanyana jwa gore a re tla a kgona, ka jaana dikai those who are to implement it. This is why I say, and I tse ke di tlhalosang tse di ntshupegetsa gore go tla a bo have said it before, that I think the Honourable Member go raya gore lekoko kana ke setlhopha se re se fileng of Parliament for Shoshong and the Minister, who is a tiro e, se tsamaye le lefatshe le lotlhe se sela kwa se ba Member of Parliament for Bobirwa, are to some extent in selang teng. Fa ke nyetse kwa Nokaneng kwa Ngami agreement. I will encourage that maybe for us to derive jaaka ke nyetse jaana, ke bo ke tsaya ngwana teng... more benefit we should encourage them to go and sit together and debate this thing and agree on some form MR ARONE: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. I that can be used, whether they call it tracer, population just want to appreciate from the Honourable Member if he census or whatever. But I do not think we should really is aware that every district has a youth officer now? The go more into debating this motion. I thank you. other Member has alluded that those are the people who can now do the research, so where are your difficulties? ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (MR MOTOWANE): Motsamaisa MR MOTOWANE: Ke a leboga mogwagwadi wa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente yo o tlotlegang wa letsatsi me yo o tlotlegang. Kgang eo ke a e itse rraetsho gore leno e bile go le Labotlhano, mma re latlhele fa re ka kgaolo nngwe le nngwe e na le modiredi wa banana. latlhelang teng ka kutlwisiso e gongwe bangwe ba rona Mo sebakeng se re buang ka sone bana bao ba ga Tona e tla a bong e le tshesane. Se ke tlhaloganyang se buega Rre Kgathi tiro ya dikopo tsa go batla go thusiwa ka fa ke gore gatwe, a re ye go latedisa bana ba ba seng mo dikgwebo kana projects e ba eme fa. Ga ba e kgone. sekoleng. Fa re sena go nna re ba latedisa gongwe re ka E se ka gore ba ditshwakga e le ka gore banana ba re lemoga seemo kana matshwenyego a bone. Fa re fetsa buang ka bone ba tsenya dikopo ba le ba ntsi. Gore go lemoga matshwenyego a bone gongwe re bo re ka itse go tsamaiwe go sekwasekwa dikopo tsa bone go bona tse ba di tlhokang kana di tlhokafalang gore ba thusiwe gore a di ka atlega di batla eng go imela banana ba. ka tsone. O kare ke e tlhaloganya e rialo. Jaanong fa e Jalo ke belaela le fa ke mo tlhaloganya, gore bokgoni le gore ke e tlhaloganya sentle ke tshwanetse ka boa ka le ditsompelo tsa gore youth officers mo dikgaolong ba tlhaloganya gore fa gotwe go ya go ba latedisa re ya go dire tiro e di tla a bo di se teng sentle. ba latedisa ba le kae ba le kwa kae. Re simolola fa kae, ba le dingwaga di kae kana re felela fa kae. Tlhaloso Ke ne ke santse ke le mo kgannyeng e e reng kana e e ntseng e tlhalosiwa ke Bakaulengwe e, Tona yo o bothata jaanong jwa lekoko le le tla a bong le lebaganyeng le ene a le mo teng, o kare gatwe monana tlhotlhomisa le dira tracer study ke gore ngwana yo ke motho wa go ema ka dingwaga di le 29. Fa gotwe ke mo tsereng kwa Habu kana kwa Betesankwe e le re latedise bana ba ba seng mo sekoleng ke boa ke e wa bagwagwadi ke tlile go nna nae ra bo re tloga re tlhaloganya gore e balela le ba ba kileng ba se tsena sa utlwane, ga re jaanong a batliwe. A sekasekiwe, a mme ba se tlogela fa gare le ba le kgoro ya sekole ba senkiwe, a bonwe go bo go bonwe gore yo tota ke yo iseng ba ko ba kopane le yone gope. o simologileng a tlhaga kwa Betesankwe kwa Ngami. Jaanong fa jaaka a dule foo a le mo Kweneng bophirima Jaanong go le bana Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa mathata a gagwe ke a le a. Palamente, ba ba iseng ba tsene sekole, le ba ba kileng ba se tsena, bangwe ba bone ba setse ba tsamaya kwa go HONOURABLE MEMBERS: (Inaudible) 29 years of age. Kana go tla a bo go raya gore ngwana MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members, please! yo o kwa Sorilatholo yo a iseng a ke a kgome sekole Honourable Members next to the Honourable gope, ka ga a mo sekoleng, is out of school, a le 23 and a Member holding the floor please buelang kwa tlase half years, re mmatle re bo re mmone. Fa e le gore golo Mapalamente.

232 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification per cent ke ba, o wetsa tshekatsheko ya gago gompieno Mr Speaker. I heard you correctly earlier on talking o bo o bona dipalo, dilo di le pedi kana di le tharo di about the fact that there might be difficulty in terms a diragala Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Fela of the process of conducting this study. I just wanted jaaka Bakaulengwe ba boletse 15 or 20 per cent ya bone to indicate to you Honourable Assistant Minister that e tla a bo e amogelwa kwa University of Botswana there are a number of countries that have conducted (UB). 10 or 15 per cent ya bone e tla a bo e amogelwa similar tracer studies of young people such as Tanzania, kwa Brigades. 11 and a half or 12 per cent e nngwe e South Africa, Ghana, Senegal, Cameroon, and this tla a bo e ya kwa e yang teng. Bangwe ba bone ba tla a information is actually in the Zambian University bo ba bona ditiro. Kana ke sone se ke reng e nna bothata Alumnae Report of 2006. All what I am saying is that gone fa, ka gore fa gotwe out of school a re raya gore we can even benchmark on how others have done it so jaanong ba ba setseng ba ikopetse projects tsa banana that we can do it more properly in our context. le dithuso ba di bona mme ba wela mo category ya bonana, mme ba theogetse mo ditirong tsa bone. Kana With regards to the fact that you are saying by tracing when you say out of school ga o a farologanya gore out the Ministry is already overwhelmed and that would of school and therefore also unemployed. Jaanong yo o mean maybe more requests coming to the same 28 years old yo o ikopetseng project ya ba ya atlega e Ministry, the motion is calling for empowerment, bile a theogetse mo go yone a se kwa sekoleng gatwe re not necessarily economic empowerment. Therefore dira jang ka ene? the empowerment can come in different forms. It can come in the form of education, some can be taken or HONOURABLE MEMBER: Kana go tewa le basadi redirected to use Botswana College of Distance and ba batho. Open Learning (BOCODOL) programmes et ce tera. So there are quite a number of options that they can MR MOTOWANE: Nnyaa basadi ba batho le bone e then be directed towards. tla a bo e le banana, mme go tewa le banna ba batho.

MR MOTOWANE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Kgang e e buiwang fa Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Fa rraetsho a amang teng fa Palamente ke gore, monana yo o seng kwa sekoleng, ke fa ke neng ke santse ke le mo tseleng ke tsaya gore o tlile go fitlhela e le gore o ka tswa a se kwa sekoleng ga nke ke lebale gore ke tle fa go gone ke go arabele mme go sa reye gore ga a theogela. O ka tswa a se kwa le gone. Ka jaana mafatshe ao a gotweng a dirile jalo sekoleng mme a theogetse a na le fa a berekang teng. ga re itse se se ba gwetlhileng go dira jalo, ga re itse Ga go itlhalose mo tshutisong gore a go tewa bao re gore e rile ba sena go nna ba fetsa go dira ga tsala eng, ba tlogela. Ga go itlhalose gore bao ba ba atlegileng ba ga dira eng gore se atlege. Ga re itse gape gore fa re bona boYoung Farmers le projects ka dithuso tsa puso, e tshwantshanya le programmes tsa rona tsa banana le tsa le banana, ba se kwa sekoleng, a bone ga re ba tsenye mo bone a ba kwa morago ga rona kana ba kwa pele kana teng? Ga go itlhalose. Gatwe fela out of school. Jaanong re a tshwana, mme ke tla a tla fa go yone rraetsho. ke sone se ke reng gone fa, re ya go nna le bothata ka gore dingwaga tsa bone fa di ya go fitlha kwa go bo29 Ke ne ke santse ke le mo kgannyeng e e reng bokete years, bangwe ba bone e tla a re jaaka o fetsa, project ya jwa ntlha ke jwa gore bana ba go tla a bo go raya gore gagwe e bo e atlega a bo a theogetse. E tla a re jaaka o re taboga lefatshe le lotlhe re ba senka re tlhomamisa fetsa go bona dipalo a bo a amogelwa kwa university. fa ba leng teng. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND Bokete jo bongwe ke palo ya bone ka gore fa gotwe SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): On monana ke motho yo o yang go ema ka dingwaga tse di 29 a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Ke a go leboga go tla a bo go raya gore tshekatsheko ya rona kana tatediso Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, le fa ke ya rona jaanong e apesa palo kana bophara jo bontsi jwa phaketse ke omantswe ke Honourable Kwelagobe. Ke palo ya batho, one spectrum of a segment group. sone se o utlwang lentswe la me le le kwa tlase, wa tsala ya me. HONOURABLE MEMBER: More than 60 per cent of it! Ke ne ke re o tlhalose Mokwena gore fa o bua ka out of school youth, a kutlwisiso ya gago ke gore go tsenngwa MR MOTOWANE: Thaakaa! Ba ba itseng dipalo le bana ba ba mo dingwageng tseo, who dropped out of ba rialo, ya banana ba re tshwanetseng gore re school? A kutlwisiso ya gago ke gore go tewa school ikamanye nabo. dropouts, ke gore ba ba mo school going age ba le school Jaanong se sengwe se se etlang se nna bothata fa ke gore dropouts? Ke go botsa ka gore maloba ke ne ka e botsa kana fa o sena go nna o tsaya gore ke ba bone ke 60 mong wa motion fa a present. Ke ne ke sa tlhaloganye

Hansard No 163 Part 4 233 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

gore a golo fale re ne ra arabana. Jaanong ke ne ke raya Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ka gore, fa re setse re na gore wena gongwe at least o tlhalose gore a o utlwisisa le kitso ka e teng gale, go ka tswa go le teng Rraetsho gore school dropouts ba mo teng, ba ba over 12 years. gore ga re itse gore ba Kanye South palo ya bone e kae, mme matshwenyego a bone re a a itse. Re ka tswa MR MOTOWANE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa gongwe re sa itse gore ba Letlhakeng Bophirima palo Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente wa me yo o tlotlegang. ya bone e kae ba ba leng out of school. Fela gone, jaaka Kana e rile fela fa ke thaya phiri ka re, ke utlwisisa Mokaulengwe Tona a ne a bua, le mothusa Tona wa fa gore gotwe re latedise bana ba ba mo sekoleng, re thuto a ne a ntse a leka go tlhalosa, go na le fa re ka ka ba kgaoganya. Go na le ba ba seng mo sekoleng, batlang teng. Ra batlela golo gongwe ra fitlhela kitso ba ba iseng ba ko ba se tsene. Go na le ba ba seng mo kana information e e ka re bayang mo tseleng. Ka ke sekoleng, ba kile ba se tsena ba se kgaoganya fa gare. tsaya gore re na le kitso ya go nna jaana, ke ne ke ipotsa Fa o utlwa ke re nna jaanong ke nna le bothata gore re gore a mme go a tlhokafala gore jaanong re tseye nako, raya batho ba le kae, go tswa fa kae, go ema fa kae. e le yone e bileng e ya go tsaya sebaka e sa re digele Kgang ya bobedi ke gore fa re sena go bona bana ba, kwa bofelong jwa go itse gore ba kae, ba kwa kae. Mo maikaelelo fa e le gore ke ne ke utlwa sekgoa sa re, “to baneng ba re ba kgaoganye ka dikgaolo. Go na le gore be more informed on their plight”, ka Setswana gore jaanong re tsene mo ditshwetsong tsa gore dithuso tse re tle re lemoge kana go itse, kana go nna mo seemong puso e ka di ba direlang ke eng, ke tsaya gore... sa temogo ya matshwenyego a bone. ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL Jaanong potso e motho a ka e botsang ke gore mo AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION (MR seemong se re leng mo go sone re le puso, re le ba M. E. K. MASISI): On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. Lephata la Banana, re le Goromente, a fa re leng teng, Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke ne ga re itse mathata a bana ba rona. Bao ba ba sa berekeng, ke kopa gore Mokaulengwe Mopalamente wa Letlhakeng nna ke tsaya gore Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente Bophirima, o ka re tlhalosetsa gore a mo dikitsong tse a yo o tlotlegang, e kgang re na le dikarabo tsa yone. Re reng di teng di ka bonala motlhofo, a o raya gore ba ba itse matshwenyego a bone. Banana ga ba na ditiro. hirilweng kwa diofising tsa Mapalamente e le batsamaisi Bangwe ba bone ba na le mathata a go nna batsadi e kante bakanoki, ke dingwe tse ba ka di phuthang? Ke a ise e nne nako. Bangwe ba bone ba na le bothata jwa go leboga. tsenwa ke segajaja se se fa se se felelang se ba itsa go ka MR MOTOWANE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa itirela sepe le setshaba ka moso. Bangwe ba tlhaetswe Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Mokaulengwe o kare o botsa ke dithuto ba di tlogetse fa gare kana ga ba a ka ba nna potso e e tsamaelanang le ya kgantele ke e bodiwa. E ke le tsone, mme bangwe ba bone go bo go raya gore ba e arabileng ka gore, diofisi tsa Mapalamente, fela jaaka tlhoka tlaleletso ya dithuto. Banana bangwe ba tlhoka diofisi tsa banana le fa ba ka ya kaconstituencies, bana tlaleletso e ke e rayang ya training. ba Modimo re tla a bo re raya gore ka moso re tsoge Dilo tse, ke matshwenyego a banana a re a itseng. Mme re ba nyaletse. Morwalo re o ba rwesa ba ka seke ba o jaanong fa re itse matshwenyego a, potso e motho o ka kgona. Diofisi tsa Mapalamente, capacity ya gore ba e botsang ke gore mme ka wa re re itse matshwenyego, kgone go baya information ka fa Rraetsho a e buang jaanong re batlelang go ya go a itse, gore go tlhokafala ka teng, ga e teng. Ke wela mo ntlheng e e reng, ka eng gore re ye go a itse. Gongwe karabo e bo e nna tshekatsheko ya me, ga re tlhoke go tsoma, go latedisa, gore nnyaa, ka ke fa jaanong re itse matshwenyego a le go sekaseka go batla go itse mathata a bana ba rona bone, le fa gongwe re ise re dire tracer study jaaka ba ba seng kwa sekoleng, ka re setse re a itse gale. e bolelwa. Matshwenyego a re a a itse gore ke a a Jalo he, ka jaana ga ke itse gore gatwe monana ke ikadile, ke bana ba rona. Re tshela le bone. Ke masika go simologa ka 12 to 29 years. Golo mo e bile ga go a rona. Goromente o itse batho ba le rona re a ba itlhalose gore go tewa re ya go simolola fa ngwageng itse re le Makhanselara, re le Mapalamente. Re itse ofe gore re tle re ye go kganelwa ke 29 years wa bone. matshwenyego a banana. Jaanong ka re ke bona go tlaa ntiela gore ke reye Goromente a thuse banana ba kgaolo ya me. Ka gore Kgang ke gore mme ka re ne re tlhoka gore re itse ntlha e ke batlang go e gatelela ke e e reng, ka re sa matshwenyego a bone, re e tle re akanyetse gore ba ka itse bokete jwa tshekatsheko e gore e simologa leng, direlwa eng. Ba ka thusiwa jang, intervention policies. e bophara bo kae, e ya go tsaya madi bokae, e ya go Fa re itse re tlhokelang go batla go itse gape. A ga se wela leng? Ke batla go tsena mo ntlheng ya gore ka gore kgato e e latelang ke gore re dire eng, se le kae, tshekatsheko le tebo ya me, golo fa go tla a ntiya gore re se dira jang, re se dira ka bokae. Ke yone e ke neng ke kope Goromente gore re tsene mo kgatong e nngwe ke batla re etle re lebagana le dikgang tse Motsamaisa e e latelang.

234 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR MAKGALEMELE: On a point of clarification MR MOTOWANE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Mr Speaker. I thank you Mr Speaker. Just a very short Palamente, ka bokhutshwane, Mopalamente wa Tati clarification. I just wanted to say to the Honourable Bophirima, re mmogo, re a utlwana sentle, ke foo Minister that it is a pity that sometimes they are Rraetsho. Ke ne ke re ke re ka mabaka one a, nna ke not in Parliament. Yesterday when I was making a bona gore re tla a bo jaanong re simolola go baya mo presentation I did indicate that because we are looking tseleng thulaganyo ya madiadia. Ka go nne jaanong re at that age category of 12 to 29 years, I was of the view ya go batla, re sedimosa, re tsoma batho. Re tshwanetse that maybe a tracer study going into a period of about gore re bone gore mananeo a a leng teng bogolo fa e le 10 years, I would consider it to be fairly reasonable. sengwe, re bone gore a ka ba thusa a tlhaelela fa kae, re a nonotshe go le kae. Ga ke batle e re ke tshwanetse gore MR MOTOWANE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa ke tlhalose gore ke eng lenaneo le sa thuse batho kwa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Rraetsho ke tlhotse fa Ditshegwane Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. maabane ka ba ka phirimelelwa fa. Dintlha tsa botlhokwa Karabo ya me e bo e nna gore, “nnyaa lona banana tse ke ne ke tlhoka gore ke di utlwe mo pegong kana bayang pelo. Re santse re sekaseka bomokaulengwe mo go beweng pele ga tshutiso e, ke tsaya gore ke di ba lona gore ba ba neng ba tlogela sekole ngwaga tse tshwere. Mathata a me ke one a jaanong mosutisi wa 10 tse di fetileng, ba tsamaya fa kae.” Jaanong tota fela motion a a tlhalosang. A period of 10 years will be ka mafoko a a ntseng jaana Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa considered reasonable. We will take 10 years, or we Palamente, a re lebeng gore a totatota se re... will cover a period of 10 years starting where, ending where? Nnyaa Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente MR KHWAE: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. mma ke wele ka gore, puo ya me ya re, fa re tsamayang Ke a leboga Tona le Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa teng ka re tsaya gore matshwenyego a banana a a itsewe, Palamente. Ke ne ke sa tshware Honourable Minister fa se se tlhokafalang jaanong ke gore, a mme dithuso kana a re ga a eletse gore kwa Ditshegwane a bo a ba bolelela mananeo a a tshwanetseng gore a ba thuse, a a teng. Fa a gore, “nnyaa, re santse re dira ditshekatsheko, ka jalo le teng, a kgona go le kae? A a foloditse, a a foloditseng ema pele.” Ke bo ke ipotsa gore a mme ditshekatsheko a folodisitswe ke eng? Ka gore fa a bua ka boYoung di a tle e re di dirwa go bo go emisiwa mananeo a a leng Farmers le Youth Development Fund (YDF), ke one teng a puso? mananeo a re tshwanetseng re a sekaseke gore a ba thusa go le kae. E bile ka gore a jaanong ke a a yang go ba MR MOTOWANE: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa thusa go thama ditiro, a mme maphata a mangwe ga a na Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke potso e e tlhamaletseng. mananeo a a leng teng a go bona gore bana ba ba boele Mo ditsompelong le go tlhoka madi le bodiredi jo bo kwa sekoleng. Ke feta ke bona maphata a a tshwanang lebileng puso gompieno, fa o simolola o lebagana le le Department of Out of School Youth and Training project e nngwe, e simologa go topola ditsompelo fale (DOSET), e e neng e le Non Formal bogologolo. le fale di lebagana le selo seo. BoBotswana College of Distance and Open Learning Jalo he, fela jaaka ke buile gore badiredi ba banana (BOCODOL), le a mangwe maphata gore mme gone fa, kwa dikgaolong ba kwa tlase ka palo, tiro e a ba imela. go nthuta gore ditsamaiso le mananeo mangwe a teng Badiredi ba boipelego mo dikgaolong, le bone ba kwa a e leng gore a ka thusa banana ba ba sa bonang ditiro. tlase, tiro e a ba imela, mme e bile le one madi a re Ba ba forokilweng ke sekole, kana ba se tsena ba nna tshwanetseng gore re a dirise re le puso, a a tlhaela. madimabe ba se tlogela fa gare ka mabaka a a leng teng. Ke ne ke eletsa gore ke reye monana kwa Ditshegwane Jaanong ke ne ke re ke bue gore Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo ke re, mo project e ya Young Farmers, le ntse le tsa Palamente... tlhaelelwa ke batho ba ba ka le thusang e le youth ASSISTANT MINISTER OF FINANCE AND officers, mme Goromente o bone madinyana mangwe, DEVELOPMENT PLANNING (MR TIBONE): On a ba tla a okediwa gore ba le thuse. Mo thulaganyong e point of clarification Mr Speaker. Thank you Honourable ya Youth Development Fund, madi a teng a ntse a le Speaker and I thank the member on the floor. I take note of manyennyane, jaanong re a okeditse. Ke seka ka mo what the Honourable Member has said that the problems raya ka re nnyaa, kana tota re santse re sekaseka gore are known. Is he also suggesting that the administrative bontsalao ba bangwe ba ba tlogetseng sekole kana ba infrastructure is there to deal with these problems because se kwa sekoleng ba fa kae. they are known and it is part of the mandate of the MR KESUPILE: Point of clarification. Ke a leboga ministry to deal with these problems? If that means the Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente le Motlotlegi administrative infrastructure is there, therefore it could be Mothusa Tona. Ke botsa gore ka re kgona go tlhaloganya taken that the objectives of the motion would suddenly be lebaka la botshelo la dipalo tse di tlang ka Statistics taken on board administratively. Botswana, tse re di dirisang mo ditogamaanong, a ko

Hansard No 163 Part 4 235 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

o re thuse gore re tlhaloganye gore jaanong tse re ka di go fitlhela e le goreministry o Rraetsho ka Dikhansele bonang ka thulaganyo e Motlotlegi tshutiso ya gago o tsa one, ga o dire se puso e se buang. O ya go fitlhela e kopang, di tsaya lebaka le le kae pele fa di bola? e le gore fa gongwe bana ba busiwa kwa dikoleng, e le gore bana koo ga ba na kapari e ba e aparang kwa MR MOTOWANE: Rraetsho Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo sekoleng. Go bo go raya gore kana fa go sena kapari, tsa Palamente, kana nna kgang ya me e tona ke gore, ngwana o a itlhoboga o tla mo lelwapeng. Fa a tla mo matshwenyego a banana re le Goromente, re le puso, lelwapeng, kana go raya gore o tletse ruri. Kgantele re le Mapalamente, re le Makhanselara, re a a itse. Fa fa o ntse o tsweletse o bona mpanyana e tswa mo re boela kwa go ya go sekasekeng, go ba latediseng, ngwaneng. Ka moso ngwana gatwe o motsetse. E le go ba tsomatsomeng, re boela kwa morago. Jaanong gore dilo tse Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, di se ke se itseng ke gore, mo sebakeng se ke buang ka dirilwe ke one maphata a e leng gore Goromente o ba sone se, matshwenyego a banana ka dikgaolo tsa bone neetse boikarabelo jwa gore ba lebe seemo se. ga a ise a bole, a tlhoka gore re tswelele re a tsibogele. Jalo he, ga ke tlhaloganye sentle fa Mokaulengwe a re ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL dipatlisiso kana dipalo tse di ka tswang di le teng, tse GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): Point of di kileng tsa bonwa, a ga di a bola kana di tla a bola. clarification. Rraetsho, ke ne ke re ke botse Mopalamente O tla a intshwarela fa ke sa kgone go mo araba sentle. yo o tlotlegang wa Letlhakeng Botlhaba gore a re, go na le Gongwe kutlwisiso e nnile tshesane. ngwana yo o tlogetseng sekole ka ntlha ya gore Khansele le Lephata la Dikgaolo ga le a ka la mo fa uniform? Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ka mafoko one a, ke ne ke re ke gatelele kgang ya gore golo MR KABLAY: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo mo ga go ya go tsoma le go latedisa kwa banana ba tsa Palamente. Rraetsho e rile maloba, dibeke tse pedi leng teng, re sa itse gore ba feditse sekole leng, ba tse di fetileng, re ne re na le Mothusa Tona Mmaetsho kwa kae, ba tsamaya jang, re simolola go tsoma gore Tshireletso, re le kwa Mantshwabisi. Ba bua fa pele banana ba feditse leng, yo o feditse sekole leng, yo ga ga gagwe gore, “Mmaetsho, bana ba rona kana ba mo a fetsa sekole leng, go ya go re diya go nonotsha, go malwapeng, e le gore gompieno ba bapile le bana ba e gagamatsa le go tlhabolola dithulaganyo le mananeo leng gore Khansele ya gago e ne ya seka ya ba fa kapari ao a gompieno a ka bong a le teng. Re itse gore fale ya sekole. Ga bo go raya gore bana ba kana ba a itlhoboga, le fale ga a thuse banana ka tsela e gongwe e ka bong jaanong ke gore ba tlile go bapa le rona. Fa ba bapa le ba eletsa gore ba ka thusiwa ka a le kalo. Jaanong ka rona go raya gore ka moso ngwana o a ima.” Minister fa mafoko a Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, ke a ka bo a le teng, o ka bo a supa e le gore Lephata le la nna le bothata gore Ntlokgolo e e fano Rraetsho, e Dikgaolo, fa le le fa Rraetsho Speaker, go na le fa e leng amogele tshutiso e jaaka fa re e tlhaloganya. Le nna ke gore le bone Rraetsho fa tota ba a amega. ne ke tsaya gore ke a e tlhaloganya. Ke a leboga. Rraetsho, se ke se buang ke gore, bana ba rona MR KABLAY (LETLHAKENG EAST): Ke a gompieno fa o tsena mo dikgaolong tsa rona, o ya go leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke ne fitlhela e le gore ba ba ntsi. Mo e leng gore le fa ba tla ke re Rraetsho sa ntlha ke supe gore ke ema tshutiso kwa go wena ba bua le wena ba re, “Mopalamente, e nokeng. Mogopolo o o botlhoko. Rona re tswa kwa tota fa go ntse jaana e le gore rona re ne re batlile go ya e leng gore fa o tsaya mogopolo o, o bo o tsaya se sekoleng, mme ga re a ya sekoleng fela ka gore botshelo se diragetseng mo kgaolong e re tswang mo go yone, kwa lelwapeng bo ne jwa pala”. Tota o fitlhela o sa ga go na gope fa go farologanang teng. Motsamaisa itse gore o ka ba raya wa reng. E le gore tshotlego e e Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente, mogopolo o Rra ke wa kanakana e e leng gore gompieno jaanong fa go batliwa bana ba e leng gore golo gongwe Goromente kana batho ba ba berekang, ba ba disang, gatwe nnyaa, maphata mangwe a ga Goromente, ba na le seabe kgaolo ya Letlhakeng East e teng. Go rwalwa batho mo go sotlegeng ga bana ba. Rraetsho kwa re tswang ba ba Modimo koo, jaanong ke bone ba ba yang go teng, kgaolo e re e emetseng ke e e leng gore bontsi tlhokomela dikgomo le bana ba rona mo malwapeng. jwa bana koo ke ba ba tlhokomelwang ke Goromente. Mo e leng gore fa e ka bo e ne e le gore sengwe le Mo e leng gore ditlamelo tsotlhe, gore ba di bone sengwe se ne se setswe morago, Goromente go ne go e a bo e le Khansele, e a bo e le Ministry of Local setswe se a neng a se bua Rraetsho, dilo tse kana di ka Government. Jaanong o fitlhela e le gore Ministry of bo di sa nna teng. Dilo tse tsa banana, jaaka o utlwa go Local Government o a amega mo dikgannyeng tse di kwadilwe gotwe go tla a tweng ka banana, go simologa ntseng jaana. O amiwa ke gore fa Goromente a ntshitse maabane. Maabane ka Tautona yo o tseneng Rraetsho gore bana ba tlhokomelwe ba ye dikoleng. Ba rekelwe Khama, e le gore mo bobusing jwa bogologolo, o ne o se e leng gore se a tlhokega gore ba se rekelwe. O ya ka seke o utlwe go buiwa sepe ka banana.

236 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR RAMMIDI: Ke kopa tlhaloso. Ke a leboga ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke a leboga SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): Mokaulengwe Mopalamente. Ke tsaya gore re ntse Point of clarification. Rraetsho ke a go leboga. Mma re mo seporong sone sa tshutiso. Jaanong ke ne ke ke leboge le Honourable Kablay. Ke ne ke re gongwe batla go tlhaloganya mo go Mopalamente gore, a a re Rraetsho a tlhalose gore a naare ene dikole tse re di tshutiso e, fa e ne e dirilwe kana e ka dirwa, ga re na go beileng kwa ga gagwe, a di santse di felela ka Form tlhola re nna le batho ba ba tla a batliwang gotwe ba ye Two? Ka kutlwisiso ya rona, Form Two yo re sale re go disa kana ba ye go belega bana, ke gore golo mo go mo tlogela dingwaga tse di kwa morago thata. Jaanong tla a bo go nyeletsa ditiro tse pedi tse? gongwe le gale, bodirelapuso bo ntse bo sa dire sentle. Gongwe bagokgo ba ntse ba ntsha bana mo Form MR SPEAKER: Maybe before you come in Two mo dingwageng tse dintsintsi tse di kanakana, o Honourable Kablay, Honourable Members, kana the tlhalose Rra re ye go baakanya. Honourable Speaker and I cannot treat you or apply this school headmaster and student relationship. No, we are MR KABLAY: Thank you Mr Speaker. Se ke neng ke se dealing with Honourable Members of Parliament. So, tlhalosa Rraetsho, ke ne ke re fa gongwe fa bana ba ntse ba le tshwanetse le ikgalemele Batlotlegi, bogolo jang fa tsweletse, fa ngwana a tsena mo go Form Two, Khansele yo mongwe a tshegeditse floor. Honourable Rammidi ya rona e palelwa ke go mo fa uniform. Fa e palelwa ke o ne a bua, go tsogile, ga ke batle gore modumo, kana go mo fa uniform, kana go raya gore ngwana o ya go ke bua le batho ba ba tona. Go sa nna sentle fela. Ke nna fatshe. Jaanong bontsi jwa bana ba rona, ke ba ba kopa gore a go nne sentle batsadi ba me. badileng boForm Two, Form One, e le gore ba paletswe ke go ya sekoleng ka gore go ne go sena uniform. Ke MR KABLAY: Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo se ke neng ke leka go se tlhalosa Rraetsho. Jaanong se tsa Palamente. Ke ne re Rraetsho, kana tota badisa ke neng ke leka go se bua gape Rraetsho ke gore, kana le ba ba ntseng ba bereka mo magaeng, ba ntse ba mogopolo Rraetsho, fa o ne o ka feta, ke mogopolo o e le teng. Jaanong gompieno go oketsegile fela thata. leng gore le bone bana ba e tla a re ka moso ba bo ba bona Ke gore kana rona kwa kgaolong e re tswang teng gore tota mme Goromente wa rona... Mr Speaker, bana ba rona ba eme ka Form Two. Gompieno fa o ka ya kwa University ya Botswana, MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND SKILLS o bo o feta o botsa gore a go na le ngwana mongwe DEVELOPMENT (MS VENSON-MOITOI): Ke yo o tswang kwa Letlhakeng East kana Letlhakeng a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. West, ga o ka ke wa bona a le mongwe fela. Jaaka o Rraetsho, ke ne ke re ke tlhalosetse Mokaulengwe gore utlwa gongwe Mopalamente wa Letlhakeng West a go na le nngwe thulaganyo kwa Lephateng la Thuto e re bua jaaka a ne a bua ka teng, mme fela nna kwa ke e bitsang, ‘Missing Children’, e e leng gore bana ba ba tswang teng, bana ba rona mo dikgaolong tsele, ba simolotseng sekole re itse dipalo tsa bone. Fa e ka re ba felela fela ka Form Two. tsena mo mophatong o o latelang, dipalo tseo tsa tlhaela ka dipalo tse re neng re sa di solofela, bana bao re a ba MR KHWAE: Ke kopa tlhaloso. Ke a leboga latela ka gore re a bo re solofetse gore sekole sa gore, se Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente le Honourable tshwanetse sa nna le bana ba le kana. Ba ba duleng mo Member of Parliament wa Letlhakeng East. Ke ne ke sekoleng ka paka e e ntseng jalo Rraetsho, go na le ka fa utlwa Honourable Member a re mananeo a a simologa ba latelwang ka teng. Ke lebogile Rraetsho. fela bosheng ka Tautona yo o tsenyeng wa gompieno, Rre Khama. A se a neng a se bua o raya gore boTautona MR KABLAY: Thank you Mr Speaker. Kana mme ba ba neng ba ntse ba feta, ba paletswe e bile ba dilo tse fa di ne di tle di tlhalosiwe pele gore kana itlhokomolodisitse dikgang tsa banana? dithulaganyo ke tse, go ne go ka nna botoka. Jaanong mathata ke gore fa go tlhalosiwa, jaanong mogote o MR KABLAY: Nnyaa Rra, ga ke ise ke re ba paletswe. le teng, o fitlhela o sa itse gore gatwe o bue o reng Mr Mananeo le fa a ne a le teng, mme Tautona wa Speaker. Le gale Mmaetsho ke a leboga. gompieno ke gore o ne a tsenya lentswana, a gatelela thata gore banana go emiwe ka dinao. Ga ke reye gore Se ke neng ke se bua gape Rraetsho ke gore, thulaganyo ba ba neng ba le teng go palegile. Se ke neng ke se bua e, e botlhokwa thata. Kana fa o sena go bona bana ba, Mr Speaker, ke gore kana bana ba rona jaaka ke ne ke re tla a bo re ba tsaya re nna le bone fa fatshe. bua, fela fa ba tsena mo go Form Two mo dikgaolong tse, ba feletse. Jaanong re mo mathateng Mr Speaker, ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL mo e leng gore motion o Rraetsho, ke tsaya gore fa o GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): Point of ka feta, gongwe o ka feta wa thusa. elucidation. Thank you Mr Speaker. As much as I would admit that there could be occurrences whereby

Hansard No 163 Part 4 237 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

students are not supplied with uniform on time by kgona go tsweledisa dithuto tsa bone ka mabaka a ke the Council, I believe that the Honourable Member ntseng ke a bua, Mr Speaker. for Letlhakeng East is exaggerating that most of the children in his constituency do not complete school Se ke se buang ke gore, bana ba, fa re ka ba itse Rraetsho, because of uniforms. There could be other contributing re tla a kgona go itse gore bana ba, ba ka thusiwa jang. factors beside uniform like parents not interested in their Re tla a kgona go itse gore bana ba Rraetsho, gore ba children going to school. The other factor is pregnancy, tlogele sekole ba ye go nna mo mathateng a, ba ye go it does not mean that when one has uniform they cannot nna le bana ba e leng gore ba ne ba sa ba solofela gatwe get pregnant. There are many other issues. So, it is not mathata e ne e le eng. Motion o Rraetsho, o tlhamaletse, only an issue of the uniform. Anyway, because he is o tla a supa gore maphata a ga Goromente ba tshwanetse talking about uniform, I am going to commit to him that ba itse gore fa gotwe go direlwe batho, go tshwanetse once Parliament goes into recess, I will take him so that ga dirwa jang. Ba tshwanetse ba itse gore fa Tautona a we have a meeting at Letlhakeng Sub-District to address go tlhophile gore o Minister wa lephata le, o tshwanetse this issue of uniform and find out how many students gore o eme ka dinao o bone gore batho ba lephata leo ba dropped out of school because of uniform. tshela sentle. Nna ke bona gore fa motion o o ka feta, o ya go baakanya dilo di le dintsi thata Mr Speaker, mo e MR KABLAY: I thank you Mr Speaker. Ke ne ke re leng gore matshelo a batho ba dikgaolo tsa rona a tla a Rraetsho, ke ka leboga thata, Minister ke tla a mo tsaya nna botoka. Ka gore go tla a itsewe gore fa Tona a sa dire ke mo isa kwa Diphuduhudu le kwa settlements tse ke tiro ya gagwe, re tla a bo re tla teng mo Palamenteng mo di buang a ye go bona gore se se diragetseng ke eng. re tla go mmotsa jaaka o bona re botsa jaana. Jaanong, ke ne ke re ke a leboga rra gore fa o ka re bitsa re ka leboga. Mr Speaker, re tshwanetse ra dira jalo, lephata lone le, le bo le ikopa maitshwarelo mo baneng ba. Le tshwanetse la Se ke neng ke se bua e ne e le gore, motion o Rraetsho ikopa maitshwarelo gore se ba neng ba tshwanetse gore ke motion o e leng gore, kana fa bana ba re se na go ba se neelwe ke puso ga ba a se neelwa ka gore lephata ba phutha, re itse gore ba kae, re tla a kgona go nna le ne la nna bonya. Le ne la ba sola mo go ba thuseng mo fa fatshe re bona gore tota gatwe re ka ba thusa jang. matshelong a bone. Ke a leboga Mr Speaker. Bana ba ka gore ba sale ba salela kwa morago, re sale re ba sadisitse kwa morago, go ya go supa gore puso MR REATILE (NGWAKETSE WEST): Mr Speaker, is involved. Go ya go supa gore Ministry of Local mma le nna ke go leboge ke akgele mo tshutisong e Government, o na le seabe mo go tsweng ga bana ba Motlotlegi Makgalemele a e beileng fa pele ga Ntlo e. mo dikoleng, mo e leng gore re tla a nna fa fatshe re Mma ke simolole fela ka go dumela gore tshutiso ka bona gore mme bana ba at the end of the day… fa e ntseng ka teng, ke e ema nokeng. Ke eme tshutiso e nokeng ka mabaka a ke tla a a ntshang Mr Speaker, MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE mme e bile gape ke tla a bua ka bokhutshwanyane. (MR KGATHI): Point of elucidation Mr Speaker. Mopalamente wa Letlhakeng Botlhaba, ke ne ke kopa Go boammaaruri jaaka Bakaulengwe bangwe ba ne go tlhaloganya gore a wa re kwa kgaolong ya gago, ba bua gore mathata a a itsege a banana ba nang nao, bana ba ba senang ditiro, le ba ba nang le mathata a go gore go na le bothata jo bo ntseng jang mo bananeng sa bona sentle (tsa botsogo), a ga o ba itse? mo lefatsheng la Botswana. Ke boammaaruri, re a itse gore banana ba ka tswa ba aparetswe ke bothata MR KABLAY: Thank you Mr Speaker. Ga ke a utlwa jwa mofuta ofe mo lefatsheng la Botswana. Kgang e Minister gore a reng. e leng teng ke gore, mathata a ntse a le teng a banana ka go farologana ga one, fa mananeo a ntshiwa, e tla a MR SPEAKER: Honourable Minister, Motlotlegi bo e le gore lenaneo le le berekang mo Gaborone, ke Mopalamente ga a a go utlwa rraetsho. lone gape le le tla a bong le romelwa go ya go bereka MR KGATHI: Ke ne ke re Mokaulengwe a kwa Charleshill, Bokspits, Mmandunyane le mafelo a ntlhalosetse gore, mo seemong se a leng mo go sone mangwe. E le gore ke one mananeo a go dumelwang e le Mopalamente wa Letlhakeng Botlhaba, a ga a itse gore a ka rarabolola mathata a bone. District nngwe le bana ba ba senang ditiro kwa kgaolong ya gagwe le nngwe e na le ka fa re ka rarabololang mathata a yone mathata a bone in general. ka teng. Fa tracer study yone e e le gore e ka nna teng, re tla a felela re itse gore kwa Okavango bothata jo bo MR KABLAY: Thank you Mr Speaker. Rraetsho, bana leng koo mo bananeng ke jwa mofuta ofe. E bile le ba ba kwa kgaolong e ke e emetseng ke a ba itse, ke lenaneo le le ka dirwang ke puso in the budget ya ga a itse gore ke eng ba na le mathata one a. Mathata ke Motlotlegi Kgathi le e leng gore le ka ya go rarabolola gore ga ba a tsena sekole, ga ba a rutega. Ga ba a ka ba bothata jo bo leng kwa Okavango ke lefe. E tla a bo

238 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate) e le gore re ntsha madi re itse gore banana ba ba leng e e ntseng jalo. Ga go tlhokafale gore o bo o hirile kwa mathata a ba a sikereng a ka nyelediwa ke lenaneo motho yo o tlholang a setse monana morago a bona le le ntseng jaana. Ba e leng gore ba mo thoteng ya gore gompieno a o robetse ka fa tlase ga mogonono Kgalagadi, kwa e leng gore ga go ka ke ga nna le temo kana o ya go robala mo lewatleng. Ke thulaganyo teng, re isa lenaneo le le ntseng jang gona le gore re bo fela e e leng gore o ka e dira, ya kgonagala fa o na le re ipolelela gore programmes tsotlhe tse e leng gore commitment le keletso ya go bona gore botshelo jwa ke tsa banana di ka tla di le universal. Ga re ka ke ra banana ba lefatshe le o tla a bo emela ka dinao. kgona go itebaganya le mathata a banana ka fa seemo sa gompieno se ntseng ka teng go fitlhelela one mogopolo MR MAKOSHA: Point of clarification. Ke a go o Mopalamente wa Shoshong a tlileng ka one re ka o leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente le wena dumela, ra o dirafatsa. Ke one fela o e leng gore o ka re Mokaulengwe. A mme gone fa o ne wa utlwa Tona kaela go itse gore mme go boammaaruri… sentle fa a ne a re kana bana ba bantsi, o ne a supa gore dipalo di supa gore banana are about 60 per cent of the MR KGATHI: Point of clarification Mr Speaker. Ke population. Jaanong wena o bua ka computers gore di ka ne ke re Mopalamente yo o tlotlegang, e re jaaka o bo di na le information e e ntseng jalo. A mme computers setse o tsenelela mo go rotloetseng motion, o ko o tse o buang ka tsone, ga go tlhokafale pele gore o ye kwa ntlhalosetse gore ka motion wa re tracer study, o sala dikgaolong o ba batle o bo o tla o tsenya information into ngwana yo morago from 12 years to 29 years a se mo the computer ka gore computer ga se gore fa o e rekile e sekoleng go fitlhelela leng? Le programmes tse o di tla a bo e na le dikgang tseo. Ke a go leboga Motlotlegi. dirang jaaka o ntse o mo setse morago jaana, a tsena mo toronkong, a tswa; a fiwa training, a batla tiro a sa MR REATILE: Ke a leboga Mr Speaker. Ke e bone. Tota how do you do this thing? leboga Motlotlegi Mopalamente wa Nata/Gweta. Go boammaaruri computer ga se gore e tl aa bo e setse MR REATILE: Mr Speaker, fa e le gore Motlotlegi monana morago. Se e leng gore se a dirafala ke gore, go Tona wa tsa Banana ene o emetse banana fela ba ba dirwa study. Fa o sena go dira study, o ya go olela into the leng mo ditoronkong, ke gone kwa a bonang banana computer. E le gore banana jaaka re na le diofisi tsone tse teng. Tracer study e e ka thusa ya mmontsha gore mme di kwa dikgaolong tse, e tla a bo e le gore jaanong go tswa banana ga ba kwa ditoronkong fela, le kwa Bobonong foo, ga o sa tlhole o tla a dira study sa bobedi. Ka gore ba teng le kwa dikgaolong tse dingwe. jaanong e tla a bo e le gore you update the system kwa banana ba tla a bong ba le teng. Ba ba leng mo university Kgang e o e botsang ke kgang e ntle. Se e leng gore le ba ba kwa tertiary fa ba tswa, le ba bangwe. Melao se a diragala gompieno ke gore, fa Motlotlegi Venson- e ya go dirwa gore re bone gore batho ba e leng gore Moitoi a santse a le kwa go tsa Boranyane, o ne a gompieno jaana ba hirile bana ba dingwaga tse di kwa supa gore jaanong mo lefatsheng le re tshwanetse re tlase ke bafe. Gompieno jaana go pala gore re itse gore bone gore re tsweledisa kgang ya Information and ke Batswana ba le kae ba e leng gore ba hirile bana ba Communication Technology (ICT). Diofisi tse o reng dingwaga tse di kwa tlase ba ba ba itsang gore ba bo ba di mo dikgaolong, fa re sena go nna le information ya le kwa sekoleng. Fa tracer study e e ya go dirwa, ke yone mofuta o, you can trace banana fela jaaka gompieno e ka felelang e ile go epolola dikgang tse di ntseng jalo. jaana go dirwa ka batho ba ba swang. Motlotlegi Siele Gompieno re ipitsa gore re Honourables mo teng ga Ntlo ga a tlhoke gore a itse gore a mongwe o sule, computer e mme re bereka kgatlhanong le melao ya mafatshefatshe ya gagwe e tla a mmolelela. ya United Nations (UN). Re ruile bana kwa dipolaseng MR SPEAKER: Batho ba ba tlhokafalang. tsa rona le kwa merakeng. Tracer study e fa e ya go tla, ke yone fela e e tla a fetang jaanong e ya go re upolola rona MR REATILE: Batho ba ba tlhokafalang Mr Speaker. ba re leng fano ba re dumelang gore re tshwere dikeletso Ga go tlhokafale gore Motlotlegi Siele a ye go dira banana sentle. Fa tracer study e re e gana, ga go na go tracer study, his computers in his Ministry di a mo itsege ka letsatsi lepe. Jaanong, re tshwanetse re bue re latolela gore Batswana ba le kana ba re latlhegetse. itse gore tota tsamaiso e re lekang go e dira ke go bona Batswana ba le kana ba tshotswe. Ke yone kgang e gore re sireletsa bone banana ba e leng gore ba ka kwa e leng gore le gompieno Ministry wa gago e bile o ntle, ba hirilwe ke rona mme e le kgatlhanong le molao itebagantse le tsone dilo tse tsa gore technology re wa lefatshe la Botswana le ya UN. bone gore banana ba nna nayo. E ka nna yone e e go bolelelang gore banana ba gago ba le kana o le Tona ba Ke sone se re se buang gore a tshutiso e re bone gore e a tsenye ka toronko, ba le kana ba palame ba ile moseja. E diragadiwa, e a feta. Go tsweng foo e bo e le gore jaanong le gore jaanong you are monitoring, computer e le yone e ka re ka moso fa re le fa, re bo re itse gore ke banana ba e go itseseng o le mo teng ga ofisi, o dirileprogramme le kae. Re na le banana ba e leng gore ba mo Jwaneng ba

Hansard No 163 Part 4 239 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

ba sa nneng kwa Senthumole Ramadeluka. Ba itiretse plan ka teng o le informed. Tracer study ke yone e e dikago tsa bone tse e leng gore ga ba nne le batsadi ba ka go neelang tsela ya go itse gore tota what you are ba nnang kwa Senthumule Ramadeluka. Ga ba kgone go planning for ke eng mo dingwageng tse tlhano kana tse tsena sekole. Bone bana ba, ba tswa kwa go boPitseng thataro tse di tlang. le kae le kae. Ke ntse fa fatshe le bone ke ba botsa gore, “mabaka a gore le bo le se kwa sekoleng ke eng.” Ba ASSISTANT MINISTER OF HEALTH (MR mpolelela gore, “re ne re ntse re tsena sekole kwa go MATLHABAPHIRI): Ke kopa tlhaloso Motsamaisa boSese, boPitseng. Mathata a rona ke gore fa re tswa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa kwa sekoleng, re bolawa ke tlala, ga re na tlhokomelo”. Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke a leboga Motlotlegi Ka ba raya ka re, “jaanong gore le ye sekoleng go ka Mopalamente wa Ngwaketse Bophirima. Ke botsa dirwa jang”. Ba nthaya ba re, “re ka tsena sekole fa go Mopalamente yo o tlotlegang gore, kgang e tona ke na le hostels, fa re tswa sekoleng re bo re tla re nna mo gore, a gatwe bana ba fa e le gore dipalo tseo di tswa mo hostels”. Kgang yone e, ke feletse ke ya go bitsa batho go ba Statistics jaaka go bolelwa, le gore di tswa kwa ba Local Government, e bong ba Khansele mo Jwaneng tracer study, a dilo tse tsotlhe tse fa di ka dirwa, a ga di gore ba dire report. Report eo re tle ka yone re tle go ka ke tsa tshwana fela? A go na le pharologanyo? bua le Tona ka yone. Fa ba sena go ya go dira report MR REATILE: Mr Speaker, ga go ka ke ga tshwana yone e ka bone bana ba, fa ke kopa report, ba bo ba re mme e bile go ka tshwana. Fa e le gore ba Statistics e ka re go kgatlhanong le ethics tsa bone. Ga ba ka ke ba nneela nako ya palo ya batho e tsena ka 2011, e bo e le gore form report yone eo. Ke dilo tse di internal, ga ba ka ke ba e ya bone e supa gore, re batla go itse gore mo bananeng ba neela motho yo o ka kwa ntle. ba 12 years - 29 years ka fa motion o o ntseng ka teng, re Ke gore o kgona go bona gore mathata a teng le fa itse gore ke ba le kae ba ba latlhegileng mo sekoleng, ba Batlotlegi ba ntse ba re re itse mathata a banana. O ba feditse sekole, ba ga ba ise ba ye sekoleng. Go tsweng le Mokhanselara, Mopalamente, o leka go tsaya foo, yone information e, ke nngwe e e leng gore e tla a bo initiative o bona gore o rarabolole bothata jo bo leng e fetela kwa Ministry wa ga Motlotlegi Kgathi, e le yone e mo kgaolong ya gago, o bo o boa o kganelwa ke bone e leng gore e tla a bo e araba kgang e. Ke sone se ke reng ba e leng gore ba mo diofising tsa puso. go ka tshwana ga go ka ke ga tshwana.

Gompieno banana ba tsweletse ba mo Jwaneng ba Fa e le gore palo ya batho yone e tla a re fa e tsena, ja mo dustbins mo lefatsheng le le humileng, mo e bo e le gore ke e e lebileng gore ke batho ba le kae Goromenteng yo o elediwang ke mafatshe. Jaanong mo kgaolong ya Bobirwa ba e leng gore gompieno tsone dikgang tse, ke tsone tse re tshwanetseng go bona jaana ba robetse fa, ba tsoga fa. E bo e le gore e ya gore re di emela ka dinao, re di rarabolola ka mowa o o go tswelela ka fa e ntseng e tswelela ka teng, ga e ka oleng, e seng ka dikgang tse e leng gore re leka go sotla ke Statistics sa thusa go rarabolola kgang e gompieno semangmang ka tsela epe fela. Fa o re o tsaya... jaana re buang ka yone.

MR KESUPILE: On a point of clarification Mr Go na le kgang e nngwe e Motlotlegi Kablay a kileng Speaker. Thank you Mr Speaker. I would like to ask a bua ka yone. Ya gore bana ba bangwe ba Rural Area my Honourable colleague; because the tracer study is Dwellers (RADS) ba kgona gore ba latlhegelwe ke going to give us a product that will come in the form sekole ka mabaka a go bo uniforms di seyo. Le fa of numbers, should then these numbers be relied upon uniforms di le teng, ba bangwe ba dirile maiteko mo for the purposes of planning as opposed to the numbers dikgaolong tsa rona. Ngwana a kopa madi a gore a or figures that would come from Statistics Botswana? neelwe bus fare ke ba Ministry of Local Government Thank you. a ye go tlatsa forms kwa Namibia a kopa phatlha ya sekole sa university koo, go bo go ganwa ka madi e MR REATILE: Mr Speaker, mma ke leboge Motlotlegi le gore o tshwanetse gore a neelwe madi a a kanang Mopalamente wa Kanye Borwa. Kgang e o e buang e ka P1,000.00. Kgang ya teng ke ne ka tla mo Ministry boammaaruri. Ka gore, fa e le gore re tswelela re ya go mo ka yone ke ya go kopana le Deputy Permanent dira tracer study yone e, go ka thusa Tona wa Banana Secretary. Le go tla le gompieno, ngwana ga a ise a bo le Tona wa Local Government go itse gore tota mme ba a bone thuso ka fa tlase ga boeteledipele jwa Khansele baakanyetsa banana ka tsela e e ntseng jang. Ka gore, e eteletswe ke Rre Rammidi, yo e leng gore gompieno gompieno gore e re fa bana ba tsholwa ba bo ba ntse ba jaana e nna moengele mo teng ga Ntlo e. kwadisiwa, go felela go thusa Goromente gore a itse gore mo district ya gore bana ba tla ka rate e e kae. Mo Jaanong ke tsone dilo tse e leng gore tota o kgona go ngwageng tse di lesome how can you plan for them? bona gore re ema fa re ikgatlha ka matshelo a batho ba Fa e le gore tracer study ga e yo, ga go na ka fa o ka le mo pitlaganong e e seng kana ka sepe. Ba retelelwa

240 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate) ke matshelo ka fa tlase ga boeteledipele jwa rona. Ke seipone fa e kete ga se bone sentle, se a sutlhiwa gore sone se e leng gore gompieno jaana, fa dilo tse gotwe a se tle se bone sentle. Se ke batlang go se bua ke gore, re boneng gore re rarabolola jang disana tse e leng gore mananeo a teng, re a utlwa dipalo di ka bonala fale. di paledisa gore banana ba lefatshe le ba tswelele pele, Dikarabo tse di neng di ntse di nna teng, tse di batlang e bo e le gore re dumela gore sengwe le sengwe se go supa gore a re le puso a re ka re re accountable in siame. Jaaka Motlotlegi Kgathi e ne e le gore gongwe terms ya gore banana ba kae, ba kwa kae. Dipotso di o na le lefufa le a le lwang le Motlotlegi Makgalemele. ne di supa gore golo gongwe le fa go na le kwa re ka Le o re o a reetsa o utlwa gore nnyaa, e ga se ntwa ya lebang teng, go na le letobonyana le le tlhokang gore Palamente, ke e e leng ka kwa ntle. Ke ne ke kopa gore fa e le gore ke seipone, se sutlhiwe gore se tle se bone gongwe Motlotlegi fa e ka ne e re dikgang tse di tswa, sentle. Jaanong ka fa ke bonang mogopolo o ntse ka le bo le lwa dintwa tse di leng mo teng ga Ntlo, re ka teng, ke mogopolo o e leng gore wa re le fa re na le kwa kgona gore re di thusanye. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa re ka lebang teng, kwa e keteng ga go bonale sentle, a Dipuisanyo. mogopolo o fete dilo tse di tle di tlhatswege tse. Gore e tle e re fa re akanyetsa ditogamaano, re akanyetsa MR BATSHU (NKANGE): Ke a leboga Motsamaisa banana ba, e bo e le gore we are doing that from an Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Re le lefatshe la Botswana, informed position. Nna ke tsaya gore mogopolo o o re na le tebelopele e e re gogelang kwa 2016. Keletso ya siame fela ka gore ke o leba ka tsela e e ntseng jalo. rona re le Batswana ke gore, re tshwanetse gore re bo re le tshaba e e tsweletseng. Jaanong fa re bua ka gore Ke sone se ke neng ke re, le fa e le tsone dikgomo re bo re le tshaba e e tsweletseng, re buisanya le batho go le ngwaga wa leuba, ga re o nne o tsaya stock go mo constituencies tsa rona kwa, re a ba bolelela gore se bona gore naare ke tlile go feeder tse kae tse e keteng ke boikarabelo jwa mongwe le mongwe; ga se jwa puso di bopame go feta tse dingwe. Tse di jang go feta tse fela. Ke tsaya gore puso e na le boikarabelo jo bogolo dingwe ke dife. Jaanong ke tsaya gore mogopolo o fa go bona gore e thusa Batswana gore e re fa re ntse re o feta, re bo re ya go itse gore gatwe seemo ke eng, re tsweletse pele jaana, ba bo ba ka bewa mo seemong sa tla a kgona go akanyetsa bagaetsho ka kitso ya gore re gore ba tshwanelwe ke tswelelo pele e e leng gore re dira eng. Mathata e ka tswa e le gore gongwe dilo tse lebile kwa go yone. Jaanong basha ke bokamoso jwa dingwe tse go na le bothata jwa gore sengwe le sengwe rona. Ke bone babusi ba lefatshe le ba ka moso. se dirwa ka madi.

E rile ka 1966 fa Botswana a tsaya boipuso, bontsi jwa Ke kile ka akanya gore fa e ne e le gore palo batho rona bangwe ba ne ba seyo. Nna ke ne ke le teng, mme gongwe mogopolo o o tlile go santse go na le nako, ke ne ke santse ke le mmotlana, ke le kwa sekoleng. Ke gongwe ya nna sengwe se e leng gore se ka ya go tsena lebogela gore Goromente a bo a re pepetleditse gore mo thulaganyong ya palo batho. Gore ba ye go tseela re bo gompieno re le mo Ntlong e ya Palamente e. Fa ruri these details tse e leng gore re a di tlhoka, gongwe Goromente a ne a seka a dira jalo, gongwe re ka bo re go ka bo go nnile botoka. Fela ka jaana ke dithulaganyo seyo fa. tse di farologanyeng, ke ema nokeng mogopolo o gore o fete. O tla a thusa Tona yo ke mo ratang wa Youth Se sengwe ke lebogela gore mo thulaganyong e ya gore jaaka Ministry wa gagwe o santse o simolola tebelopele ya Botswana, Goromente wa rona yo re jaana, e re fa o ya go simolola o gola, a bo a itse gore o eteletsweng pele ke Rraetsho Khama, ga dirwa gore go berekela mo go eng. nne le Ministry of Youth. Ministry wa ya go nna teng e le gone go baakanyetsa gore basha ba lefatshe le, ba MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE tlhokomelesege fa ba ntse ba bopelwa gore re mo tseleng (MR KGATHI): On a point of elucidation Mr Speaker. ya go ya kwa re go yang. Kwa lefatsheng le e leng gore Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke re tla a bo re tsweletse pele. Mananeo gape a ga Tautona ne ke re Mokaulengwe yo o emeng, ka matshwenyego wa rona mo bogompienong, ke a e leng gore a a bo a a gago ke gore, wa re statistics ka fa se leng ka teng beile mo go reng go diragala eng on the ground. Jaaka a gone jaanong, ga se kgone go go kgotsofatsa. Gongwe tlhola a bua gore boIntegrated Support Programme for fa go ne go ka tla ga tsenngwa mo go ba Statistics, Arable Agriculture Development (ISPAAD) o ne a ya go ka nna botoka. Ke tlhalositse gore, re kopile kwa kwa Kgotleng a buisanya le batho. Ke gore mananeo a Statistics gore dipalo di kgaoganngwe ka group tse e gagwe a na le ka fa a leng informed ka teng. leng gore di tla a go kgontsha gore le wena kwa Tutume o kgone go itse gore banana seemo sa bone ke eng. A fa Mma ke tlhamalaleng fela gore o mogopolo o o fa pele seemo se ntse jalo, o ka kgona go dumela gore dilo tse ga Palamente gompieno o, ke o ema nokeng. Fa re e tla a re next year fa go tsewa palo ya batho, ba go fe ntse re tshedile, moso le moso re iteba mo diiponeng dipalo tse di nonofileng? tsa matlo a rona re ntse re ikitse gore re bo mang. Le

Hansard No 163 Part 4 241 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR BATSHU: Ke a leboga. Ga ke itse, fela jaaka MR SPEAKER: Sorry Honourable Tsogwane, bangwe ba ntse ba bua, kana dilo tse e leng gore di a go Honourable Rammidi, o ntebele ba bangwe ba ba sa tla gongwe re setse re le mo tafoleng jaana, o tla a fitlhela direng sentle fela ka koo Honourable, o ba ntebele di le suspect. Ke gore ga ke na boammaaruri jwa gore go ka kwa. dirilwe jalo. Nna ke itse fela gore, re ya go bala batho. Thulaganyo ya gore, go ya go balwa batho ka tsela e e MR TSOGWANE: Ke a leboga Mr Speaker. I just ntseng jang re e badile. Ga ke a bona go na le tsetla e said at first I could not really get the difference or the e ntseng jalo. Jaanong ke sone se e leng gore ke na le confusion that is taking place between the Minister and bothata le sone. Information go na le ka fa e leng gore e the mover. So, I took it upon myself to have bilateral ka nna ka teng. Kana se re se batlang ke gore, information talks with the two gentlemen, Honourable Member of e nne teng. Re itse gore, re thusa batho ba le kwa kae. Parliament for Shoshong and the Honourable Minister, but still I could not really say there was any difference MR G. SALESHANDO: On a point of clarification between the two. They were all in agreement. It is Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, ga ke itse gore, batho ba ba only that one wanted to take the longest route, the dumelanang le motion o, tumelo ya bone e tswa mo go other the shortest route. Maybe that is the difference, eng, bogolo jang e le maDomkrag? Le na le dingwaga but their destination and the objective is the same. The di le 45 Domkrag e le seipone se se sa supeng sepe Minister was talking about reinventing the wheel and ka banana sentle gore, go iwa kwa kae. Gompieno le the gentleman was talking maybe more rightly about re baya fa malatsi a mabedi la re, you generate heat being conservative. Maybe not trying to embrace gore, Domkrag e tle e itse kwa e yang teng ka banana. revolution or change so quickly to speak. What I want Tumelo ya lona tota e based mo go eng, e seng gore le to say Honourable Members is that, winners do not do re senyetsa nako fela? different things, they do things differently. We do not have to reinvent the wheel we only have to, if there is a MR BATSHU: Ke a leboga. Domkrag yo o busang way of achieving something in the most cost effective yo, ke Domkrag yo e leng gore, o na le tebelopele. Ke way then we have to do it. What I am saying is, if there Domkrag yo e leng gore o itse gore environment e a is something that we have to improve upon, it is better to fetoga, yo e leng gore ga se gore se se neng se le teng improve it instead of coming up with a completely new maabane, se tla a bo se tshwana ka moso le ka moso brand. This is because it is not going to be cost effective. o mongwe. Domkrag yo o busang yo, yo o belegeng Mr Speaker the Minister has said yes, we have statistics Botswana, yo o tlhokomelang bana, jaaka gompieno and census. We might not say it covers everything, but re le fa re batla go bona gore environment ka jaana we have realised that there is more information that we e a fetoga. Re tshwanetse gore, re thuse ka tsela e e can gather by improving on our procedures, and some ntseng jang. Ke yone e e leng gore, e ka re isa kwa of the questions that we have in our census study. The Botswana a batlang gore a ye teng. E seng phathi e e Minister was saying, we are already on the way of leng gore yone e tla a dumela gore, fa e le gore go ne improving that and we can embrace it and what we may go ntse jaana ka 1966 go tshwanetse gore go nne jalo cover by a completely parallel exercise. I am not for the fela. Tlhobogang bagaetsho, ba e leng gore ba re ba opinion of a parallel exercise. I am of the opinion of ka tsoga ba busa ke ba ba dumelang gore dilo ka fa di improving on what we have. neng di ntse ka teng ka 1966 go tshwanetse gore go nnele jalo ruri fela, nnyaa. Rona re Domkrang yo e leng There was a clarification Mr Speaker. gore, o a itse gore re tshwanetse gore re nne re kanoka environment. Jaanong tse di tswang foo, di re thusa MR SPEAKER: I see you are assuming the gore re baakanyetse ka moso. Ka bokhutshwane ke ema responsibility of a Speaker now. nokeng mogopolo o. Ke mogopolo o o progressive, o o MR KESUPILE: On a point of clarification Mr Speaker. supang gore Domi e a tshela. Domi e a tshela ka boRre Since you stood to speak against the motion, I just want Makgalemele ba kgona go re tlisetsa ditshutiso tse e to find out from you. Since the tracer study would leng gore, di ka re supegetsa gore mananeo a a tlang generate different characters or factors, would you be can be informed ka eng. Ke a leboga. satisfied with a choice of a location, say Salajwe and MR TSOGWANE (BOTETI NORTH): Ke a leboga then a tracer study be conducted on Salajwe Community Mr Speaker. I just want to make modest contribution Junior Secondary School, and then extrapolate the to the motion. I have had an opportunity to talk to both results of that across the country? Thank you. the Minister and the mover of the motion, because MR TSOGWANE: I did not get you properly. In any I could not understand their difference. So, I took it case I think a study on its own would not gather the upon myself to organize bilateral … whole information. This is because the study by nature is

242 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate) sampling. You just sample and then as you have rightly already they are doing something in order to improve indicated, you apply that to the general population. our census, so that it can be answerable to all problems In that case it is not that you will be counting each or the different sections. This is because we come up and every single head, you have to sample. So, it is with the tracer study today for youth. Tomorrow we inherently not so perfect so to speak. The same thing will need to come up with the tracer study for destitute would be with the census, and it is broader exercise well people. We admit that we do not have information on budgeted for. They have done it over years. They have the youth, then similarly we can say we do not have realised the shortcomings, that is why they are saying information on destitute persons. So, we will have to they will accommodate the information which you will come up with tracer study on old age pensioners, and gather through a tracer study in our census exercise. destitute persons. These are problems that we have. These are issues that attract policy matters. ...The People were complaining that it takes over years. Even Minister has indicated that the information is available with the tracer study we do not have the timeframe and I am agreeable to that, and I think the programmes because we have the capability and the economic that we have for youth are sight informed. strength. It is not that the tracer study will be done every month, or every two years. It is going to have a MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of clarification Mr timeframe in the same manner that we have our census, Speaker. Honourable Tsogwane o tlhalosa gore, kgantele so I do not really get the difference there. re tla a bo re simolola re dira tracer study, among other examples he gave old age pensioners. Ke ne ke re a Tona ASSISTANT MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND o bona go tshwana fela? Go ya ka nna ke tsaya gore SKILLS DEVELOPMENT (MR RAKHUDU): On statistics on old age pensioners se available ka gore, ba a point of clarification Mr Speaker. I thank you Mr a duelwa kgwedi le kgwedi. Ga ke solofele gore go na le Speaker and I am grateful to Honourable Tsogwane tracer study e nngwe e e ka dirwang mo go bone. So, ga for giving me the opportunity to seek this clarification. ke itse gore you compare it ka tsela e e ntseng jang le fa During the course of the debate several people, at Honourable Makosha ke sa mo utlwe ene? least I can recall three Members of Parliament, and Honourable Tsogwane seems to be the forth or so, made MR TSOGWANE: I thank you Honourable Member, an allusion that this tracer study were it to be done, this but I will give an example. I can give you some of also includes the parent Minister, Honourable Kgathi, the people who are not getting that for one reason or that perhaps a census could be relied upon to bring out maybe for the other, but that maybe the information the same results or be necessarily the same thing as a that might not be available at the office there. tracer study would be. Since the national population census has got a standard calculated gap of 10 years, All I am saying is that this is a problem. In any system would the results coming out of that satisfy the needs of you will meet problems, but when you meet them you this motion, a study that has a standard 10 year gap? do not go for a complete overhaul. You have to improve on what you have. Like the Honourable Minister was The last bit of clarification is if that would not satisfy saying, that he was improving on the statistics issue the demands of this motion, how sustained and what and he was going to provide room for a tracer study of would be the required standard gap for a tracer study some kind. So that we can trace all those out of school for the simple reason that every year things change youth. So I am agreeable and I think he has to do that. even for any one person? I thank you Mr Speaker. We must give them the opportunity to do that.

MR TSOGWANE: I thank you Honourable Minister. I am the first to admit that the Honourable Minister here is Yes, these are logistical problems. These are some of a scholar and he has done studies. I will be surprised if he the things which we do not have information on as of is the one who will be averse to any study. He is someone now, because we will have to design the model and that I have known from way back and I know he will be have to come up with the methodology of that tracer the first to admit that a study is very important. Like I study. We were not just going to embark on a tracer am saying, we cannot indicate to any of the policies that study for the sake of a tracer study, otherwise we are we have had on youth and say no, this policy was not going to lose on the validity and reliability of such a informed. Except to say like others would do and say, well study. These are issues which we have to consider. As if you have a national policy it might not cover people in I have said timeframe is very very important because certain areas. That is understandable, but I think we need it is also a cost factor. I do not know how frequent to design if we are to design programmes. We can design this tracer study would be like. Maybe the mover programmes because we know our region, environment of the motion could tell us the frequency rate of the and our geography. We do not need to go and come up with tracer study. Like I said the Minister has admitted that a tracer study to have targeted programmes for Kgalagadi

Hansard No 163 Part 4 243 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

and Okavango,that you have to design a programme in in his Constituency. I do the same and if you ask me this manner. We know our geography and environment about the problems of the youth in Mahalapye, wake and that could not be the reason for advocating for a me up at 2 o’clock in the morning and I will be able tracer study. to articulate them eloquently. I expect all Honourable Members to do the same. Anybody who does not know Like I have said there is nothing wrong with this thing. gore banana ba gagwe mo dikgaolong ba na le mathata It is all part of the whole exercise that is ongoing. The a a ntseng jang, with the greatest respect colleagues Minister is amenable to the information that will get has no business to be in this Parliament. My view is through by improving that. Like others have said, he is that we are really trying to undertake a study to try and calling for a parallel exercise. What I am saying is that discover information that we already know. we are calling for a parallel exercise, which is of the same magnitude as the national census. Are we going to Somebody has talked about the question of census that afford it? Are we not going to duplicate the efforts when is coming. I am sure with the kind of technology that we have so limited resources? Is it wise and prudent to is at our disposal these figures can be disaggregated go and duplicate the exercise? The first question I asked in terms of the age cohort. We will be able to account the Minister was why are you averse to the tracer study? for each and every person in this country according to He clearly said all the reasons and he said they were their age cohorts. I am saying let us not dissipate our in agreement with the Honourable Member. I think energies on a matter like this. the Honourable Member for Ngwaketse Honourable Minister, he has indicated when he stood here and said In my own view, let us get on with the programme of maybe there is difference of semantics… solving the problems affecting the youth. We know where these problems are. Let us not indulge in some HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Honourable philosophical analysis of these problems, when we Rammidi. know what the problems are. I really want to plead with colleagues that let us get out there and do something. My MR TSOGWANE: Honourable Rammidi I would say friend and colleague Honourable Saleshando senior was yes, it can be semantics. I think it is a structural issue. saying the Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) has not MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE done anything for years. Have we just suddenly woken (MR KGATHI): On a point of elucidation, Mr Speaker. up to the realisation that something has to be done On a point of elucidation I wanted to stress the fact for the youth? Rraetsho, these things are processes. A that the tracer study is much more than the question of development is a process and there is no terminal clause semantics; reliability of the statistics. It is unreliable. as far as these issues are concerned. The problems that we are grappling with today, the next generation will still MR TSOGWANE: Thank you Minister, I think I have be grappling with, because these are evolving situations. covered that. I said in any study you depend on the Of course if you want to blame for the sake of blaming reliability and the validity. So you have to take all you can make these comments. You can go on and make these into account. You do not just come with a study these comments; we should only undertake a study as if you are counting cattle at your cattle post. You where it is absolutely necessary to inform ourselves have to sample, know the methodology and all these. about something that we are not so clear about. With those few remarks, I thank you. Let us not be communistic. Do you know why the HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (LT. GEN. Russian’s economy collapsed? It is because they spent all MERAFHE): Thank you very much Mr Speaker. I their time in committees. They divided themselves into a am not too sure whether we are really engaged in an number of central committees. These central committees exercise of productive use of our time. To be engaged spent all their time discussing issues instead of getting on on a debate of this nature as if we are engaged in some with the business of managing the affairs of the country. kind of a dialogue of the deaf and dumb. In my own The result is what happened and please, let us get on with view Mr Speaker, is that we should not dissipate our the business of trying to attend to the problems. I am a energies on things that are obvious to the eye. All the practical and a common sense person… areas in this country are represented. There are 57 Constituencies and we cover the length and breadth of MR G. SALESHANDO: Ke kopa tlhaloso, this country as Members of Parliament. Any Member Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ga kere mme of Parliament who has any modicum of interest in his le mo tseleng yone ya maRussia le gompieno … Constituency and the welfare of his people, should be MR SPEAKER: O tshwanetse o eme pele Rraetsho o able to know exactly what problems affect the youth bidiwe ke Speaker.

244 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

MR G. SALESHANDO: Ke ne ke re ga ba farologane go ikanyega. Fa ke re go tlhoka go ikanyega, mma ke le maRussia mo Domkrag, ka gore le lona le tsena supe gore ke raya jang. Maabane fela jaana ba Local central committee malatsi otlhe. Phathi ya lona e bile e Government ba ne ba re bolelela gone fa gore batho ba a thubega. Go tshwana fela. ya go tswa kwa mophakong ba ya kwa Ipelegeng. Ba e leng gore ke ba ba sa tsogang sentle ba tla tswelela ba LT. GEN. MERAFHE: The Honourable Member bereka koo ba sa kgaolwe. Letsatsi leno ba a kgaolwa is completely irrelevant and what he says is devoid mo go supang gore fa gongwe re bolelelwa dilo tse di se of any relevance and common sense. So I think I nang boammaaruri. Jaanong go nna bokete fa gongwe will be wasting my energy and time to respond to Tona gore le fa o tla ka boammaaruri kamoso o bo o polemics of this nature. So I am not going to bother fitlhela e le gore jaanong re tshaba le go go ema nokeng, about responding to a statement which is intended to ka gore ga re na le fa e le bosupi jwa gore a se o se be provocative and abusive. It is intended to score a buang ke boammaaruri go tla diragala. Ke one mathata political point. I regret to say that I do not think you a a nnang teng. have succeeded Honourable Member in your effort. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL Studies have cost implications. Should we spend GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): On a point of money that we could be using to develop the youth to clarification Mr Speaker. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa undertake studies? With these few remarks Mr Speaker, Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. Ke a leboga Mopalamente I really want to plead with colleagues, that probably wa Lobatse wa phathi e e ikemetseng. Rraetsho, mo we have done justice to this matter. Let us settle it once lenaneong la rona la Ipelegeng batho ga ba kgaolwe ba and for all. My own view is that we should air on the a fapaana; go tsena ba bangwe ka moso ba a tswa go side of saying, no I think we know what problems we tsena ba bangwe. Ga go na yo o kgaolwang. are talking about. I thank you Mr Speaker. MR MODUBULE: Ke a leboga. Tona, fa o ne o le MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Ke itheile ka re ke teng, ka e bile ke wena Tona wa teng. O a itse gore utlwile mogolo, rrarona sentle. Le fa a ne a sa nopole seemo se se leng teng, ke gore go na le batho ba e leng Standing Order sepe. Fa mogolo a re a re lekeng go gore gompieno jaana ba tsaya melemo ya antiretroviral wetsa, ke tseela gore o ne a kopa diplomatically gore, (ARVs), mme bone batho ba ba ne ba le mo lenaneong la maybe the Speaker can invoke… go phaka. Ka gore ga ba ka ke ba di nwela mo tlaleng.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… O ba tsere o ba tsentse kwa Ipelegeng o re raya o re MR SPEAKER: Ga go laole lona. Do not be ba ya go tswelela ba le koo ka foo ba tla a bo ba bona rumbustious on me. lemmeyana la gore kgwedi le kgwedi ba ithekele. Jaanong o a ba kgaola, kgwedi e o ba kgaotseng ba ja MR MODUBULE (LOBATSE): Thank you eng, ba nwa melemo ka eng ...(interruptions)... Honourable Speaker, mma ke go leboge. Ke tla nna mokhutshwanyane Honourable Speaker. Ke tsaya MR SPEAKER: Honourable Modubule, naare yone gore I will have done justice to the motion. Mma ke Ipelegeng e tsena jang ne batho? supe fela kwa tshimologong gore Rraetsho, ke ema MR MODUBULE: Ke ne ke supa go tlhoka go ikanyega mosutisi wa mogopolo nokeng, gore go nne le this ga Matona, gore fa gongwe le fa ba re kopa selo, se ka tracer study. I will not go into details why ke mo ema bo se le genuine go le kae. O ka seke o itse gore a ke o nokeng. Ke na le bothata jwa ga Tona, ka gore Tona ba tshephe ka gore ka moso ba dira se sele. fa a ntse a bua o re bolelela gore dilo tse di teng. Ba ba buang ba re dilo tse ga di yo mme re ka di bona ka ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL statistics. Fa re ntse re tsweletse Tona a re o kopile GOVERNMENT (MR RAMMIDI): On a point of ba Statistics gore ba ye go tsenya clauses dingwe tse elucidation. Ke a leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa di ka dirang gore a nne le this information. Mo go Palamente. Rraetsho, there is a misconception that rayang gore tota information e ga e yo. when you are on the ARV programme you are entitled to be on the destitute programme, that is not the case. Jaanong mathata a me a matona ke gore ke ka bo ke There are some people who are on ARV programme dumalana le wena Tona fa e ne e le gore maDomkrag who can fend for themselves, just like people who are le batho ba le ikanyegang. Jaanong mathata ke gore ga diabetic, some have got high blood pressure, who are le ikanyege. Ke ka bo ke dumalana le wena gore seo not getting these baskets. So those people are assessed le ka se dira la kopa gore ba ba yang go dira census on the basis of what they have and what they do not next year ba tsenye thulaganyo e e ntseng jaana gore le have, not because they are on ARV programme. Even kgone go nna le that information. Mathata ke go tlhoka

Hansard No 163 Part 4 245 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

those who are on ARV programme who are proved MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Members, please to be destitute, but still healthy, they can work for give him chance. themselves; they just go onto the roster like any other person. So this is what we have been going around MR MODUBULE: Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa trying to explain. Motho o a tla fela a re, ‘nna kana Palamente, batho ba ga ba ikanyege, mme ga go go tshwerwe mogare mo go nna jaanong ba gana go molato. Se ke batlang go se supa ke gore Tona ke mphakisa,’ that is not the case. ka bo ke dumalana le wena fa e ne e le gore this tracer study ka boammaruri information e Motlotlegi MR MODUBULE: Honourable Speaker, I do not Makgalemele a e batlang, e ne e ka re fa batho ba ya understand where the Minister comes from. What I go dira census ngwaga o o tlang, ka boammaruri wa e want to emphasise ke gore ke bua ka batho ba e leng tsenya mo teng gore compilation e tle e nne teng. Ke gore Tona wena ka bowena, o ne o sekasekile wa ba wa ka bo ke go ema nokeng. Jaanong ka gore wena ga ke ba neela food baskets gore ba tshele ka tsone. I am not go tshephe, o ipuela fela. Jaanong ga a bua le batho ba talking about any other people. Ga ke itse gore o bua ka ba amegang ba statistics, ke kgang fela e e leng gore ga eng. Mma ke tswe mo go yone. Boammaaruri ke gore ...(interruptions)... Ke na le tumelo ya gore... ke ne ke fa sekai ka go tlhoka go ikanyega, ga se yone subject of debate. Ke ne ke fa sekai sa gore go thata gore MR SPEAKER: On that note ya gore bangwe ba ga fa gongwe gore Tona le fa a bua jaana gongwe a na le tshephagale, ke ne ke solofetse gore we should have boammaaruri, re bo re ka mo ema nokeng ka gore ka put the question... moso go tla a bo go diragala se sele. Ke sone se ke reng HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ... (Inaudible)... tracer study a e nne teng, e nngwe e ntsi e e seka ya tswelela Rraetsho. MR SPEAKER: Honourable Members may we have order please. For the last three months re ntse MR MAKOSHA: On a point of clarification. Ke a re dirisanya sentle thata go tla go tsena moso wa go leboga Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo tsa Palamente. gompieno. Ke a go leboga Motlotlegi Modubule. Ke botsa gore tota mme fa e le gore go a tlhokafala gore re nne le Moso wa gompieno Motlotlegi Motsamaisa Dipuisanyo information yone e e batliwang ke tracer study mme tsa Palamente o le lebogetse tiro e ntle e re dirileng six re na le research officers mo diofising tsa rona re le Bills, two Policies, le tiro ka bontsi, mme mafoko ao Mapalamente, a mme ga go ka ke ga nna botoka gore re ke a agela mosako. Ke bo ke le leboge Mapalamente dirise bone foo fa e le gore re tlhokana le information? go bo re ise re ko re phatlalale go sena quorum, re ntse Thank you Sir. re tswelela sentle ka the lively debates tse le ntseng le di tshwere. MR SPEAKER: Maybe before you respond Honourable Modubule, in all fairness to the Honourable Minister Batlotlegi Mapalamente, a e re le tsamaya jaana kwa responsible for the portfolio. Honourable Minister you dikgaolong go ya go lekolana le batlhophi, Modimo Rara want to clarify? a le etelele. Re bo re leboge le bana ba rona babereki ba Palamente for their immaculate and excellent work ya MINISTER OF YOUTH, SPORT AND CULTURE paka tsotlhe. Ke leboge le bodirelapuso ka kakaretso (MR KGATHI): Mo kgannyeng ya go tlhoka go go bo ba re thusa, ba re kaela ka metlha yotlhe. tshephega ke re ao! Mokaulengwe, rona mo lephateng la Sports re ne ra solofetsa gore re tla a ya go aga Jaanong bagaetsho, ga re lekane mo Palamenteng. stadium kwa Lobatse, mme re se agile. Go ile gape ga I need to particularly thank His Honour the Vice solofediwa gore go tla a agiwa sepatela, a o santse o ka President for his lively participation. He religiously tlhoboga go tlhoka boammaaruri mo go Domkrag, le and disciplinarily sits in Parliament throughout. Fa a tseo di dirilwe? seo o a bo fela a le on engagement tsa tiro ya gagwe. Golo mo go tshwanetse go re rotloetse ka gore rraarona MR MODUBULE: Ke gore lefufa ke one mathata. Se o nna fa, le rona re tleng fa ka nako. On that note, may ke ka se supang ke gore o a itse gape gore sepatela se I ask His Honour the Vice President in his position as a neng a se re solofeditse kwa Lobatse ga a se dira, the Honourable Leader of the House to move a motion Athlone Hospital. of adjournment.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Inaudible)... MOTION

MR MODUBULE: Nnyaa o bua se sele, ke bua ADJOURNMENT se sele. Ke gore ke supa gore sone se se sone ...(interruptions)...

246 Hansard No 163 Part 4 Friday 9th April, 2010 TRACER STUDY OF OUT OF SCHOOL YOUTH Motion (Resumed Debate)

LEADER OF THE HOUSE (LT. GEN. MERAFHE): Mr Speaker, before I do so, let me reciprocate the good gesture that you have extended to my colleagues about the manner in which they have carried themselves around during this session. We hope this is a new chapter in the way forward in terms of the way we conduct business in this Parliament, where there has been no instances where Parliament has had to adjourn because of lack of quorum. We would like to thank you and the substantive Speaker for the excellent manner in which you have stirred the ship and guided us in our deliberations. With those few remarks Mr Speaker, let me move that this House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The House accordingly adjourned at 1:03 p.m. sine die.

Hansard No 163 Part 4 247 HANSARD EDITORS

Ms T. Lesaso, Ms M. Maine, Ms W.N. Mbakile, Ms N. S. Molokomme, Ms W. Mbeha, Ms K. Nyanga, Ms K. Alepeng, Ms C. Chonga, Mr K. Goeme, Ms G. Phatedi, Ms B. Malokwane, Mr A. Mokopakgosi, Ms O. Nkatswe, Ms B. Ntloyathuto.

HANSARD REPORTERS

Ms R. Pilane, Ms N. M. Molebatsi, Ms M. Ditaola, Ms Z. Molemi, Ms B. J. Ntobedzi, Mr M. Buti, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms V. Nkwane.

LAYOUT DESIGNERS

Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr B. M. Morue

248 Hansard No 163 Part 4