African Immigrants Project Interview transcription

John Kidane

Interview date: July 27, 2000 Location of interview: Nationalities Services Center Country of origin: Eritrea Ethnic group/language group: Tigrinya Religion: Eastern Orthodox Profession: Immigration counselor at Nationalities Services Center Level of education: Unclear if undergraduate studies were completed Location of residence in Philadelphia: South Philadelphia

Mr. Kidane fled to Sudan in 1980 after fighting in the Eritrean People’s Liberation Front. In 1981, he and his wife came to the United States, sponsored as refugees by UNHCR and Nationalities Services Center (NSC). She was pregnant with their son at the time.

After arrival, Mr. Kidane attended the School of Social Work at Temple University and eventually got a job at NSC as an immigration counselor. He is extremely active in both the Eritrean community and in the African immigrant community in general. He was a founder of the Eritrean Community and is also active in the Eritrean Youth Club, the Eritrean Development Foundation, and is the Public Relations person for the Eritrean American Network for Peace. Mr. Kidane was a member of the African Immigrant Project Community Advisory Committee.

Interview Transcription

Interviewer: Leigh Swigart (LS)

Interviewee: John Kidane (JK)

START OF TAPE ONE, SIDE A

Leigh Swigart : Okay. Your name, please?

John Kidane: Oh, my name is, um, John Kidane.

LS: And you’re from what country?

JK: I’m from Eritrea.

LS: And what ethnic group are you from in Eritrea? [break in tape] What’s your native language?

JK: Well, I speak Tigrinya.

LS: O.K., that was your mother’s language, or --- ? John Kidane 2

JK: That’s my father’s and my mother’s language, but the ethnicity and the language are different in Eritrea. There are many ethnicities who speak the major language, which is Tigrinya.

LS: As their first language?

JK: Because they settled --- Well, it’s not their, ah, it may not be their first language, but because they settled in a Tigrinya-speaking region ---

LS: -hmm.

JK: They will speak Tigrinya.

LS: Right.

JK: If, ah, for example they are Fawoulta tribe, who lived in Tigray-speaking area, in the lowlands in Eritrea, and they speak Tigray, because of where they settled. So, ethnicity and language are totally different things.

LS: So, but, even though people may not have that language, they still have an ethnic identification? They’re not supposed to change that?

JK: Yes, yes.

LS: That’s interesting! Cause sometimes ---

JK: They will dance their ethnic, ah, culture, they will respect who they are from, they will link with the, you know, with the other cultures which are in the proper areas. There, in their region area, they speak their own language. It’s very unique.

LS: That must make intermarriage easier.

JK: Yes, yes.

LS: Between ethnic groups.

JK; Well, it does once they move in to the area, but if they stay in their region area, then it' not that easy.

LS: So if you can just go back and tell me how is it that you left Eritrea, the reasons, and how you eventually got to the United States.

2 John Kidane 3

JK: Well, you see, first of all, my name in Eritrea is Yohannes Kidane. Yohannes is John. , but I prefer to be called John, because my family, most of them, they call me John, Johnny. That’s my name at home, but my proper name in Eritrea is Yohannes.

LS: Why do they not call you Yohannes?

JK: Because they wanted to call me John, I don’t know why, It’s, it’s, ahh, more, ahh, urban family, my family was very urban in Asmara, the capital city.

LS: Oh, you’re from Asmara?

JK: Yeah, so, that’s where I lived, that’s where they lived, even though that’s not where they are originally from. , so, but that’s where I lived. And they call me Yohannes. So, I was born in

Asmara, and I went to high school in Asmara. I started the university in Asmara, first year and that was the time during the --- when Haile Selassie was about to be overthrown and that was where the

Eritrean independence movement was at its peak in the seventies, that’s where there was some fighting in the city. There was a lot of imprisonment, there was a lot of assassinations, killings of a lot of student leaders that I knew. We were part of the Student Union. We wanted a peaceful transformation in Eritrea, which, you know, the government that overthrew Ethiopia, Ethiopia and

Haile Selassie, was preaching for that they will do, but they didn’t do it. They resorted to the, ahh, forceful resolution of Eritrea and thousands of students were killed in front of our eyes. I remember when we were hiding under the bed when we were teenagers, it was very, very bad, and the CID, we call them, the intelligence people of the government, they use to go door to door, knocking doors, looking for people , arresting people, they arrested relatives of mine. They arrested friends of mine.

LS: And this is just if you were being suspected of being involved in ---

JK: --- of being involved with the independence movement.

LS: If I can just interrupt for a second, does this movement, does the independence movement, have a historic basis? Has there always been as a consciousness of the separation between

Ethiopia and Eritrea?

JK: Yes

3 John Kidane 4

LS: And it just sort of ---

JK: Yes. The movement as far as I know it started in the in the forties. The history says the movement basically started in the forties, the political movement. When the British came to become the protectorate of Eritrea after the Italians were driven out. OK? So there different political parties.

There were groups that were helped by Ethiopian Haile Selassie. , there were groups that were purely fighting for Eritrea, but they may have been saying they are Muslims. OK? But there were also people who were conscious who were not Muslims, who were not saying they were Muslims, or ( ), who were purely calling for Eritrea for Eritreans. That was the movement that was led by Wildhabul

Damarriam and, ah, Abdulkadir Kabirri. You can see, they are Muslim, and these were the modern and middle class Eritreans, who were mostly Protestant, mostly Protestant, the Christians.

LS: But where are the sense of who was Eritrean come from, if you have mixed ethnic groups? What historically gave people sense of --- ?

JK: Oh, well, Eritrea has a history of Bahranagash. They had their own fiefdom, their own, you see, kingdom. You know, the Abyssinians had kingdoms, too. Within Abyssinia. So we had our own kingdom. We linked with Ethiopians. At many times we linked with them to fight the Turks, which is called the Ottoman Empire. We had common interest and we're related, we have historical ties, but we have our own autonomy. At all times. Eritrea had its own kingdom, the Kingdom of

Wildanikild the Famous. They called it Bahranegash. It's like “The King of the Seas.” That's what it means. So that was known --- Eritrea was known as Bahrnegash. Now, “Eritrea” --- the name was given to it by the Italians. The Italians came in the 1800s, the same way they came into Libya and

Somalia. The same way they created the borders of Libya, current Libya, and current Somalia --- created current Eritrea in 1889.

LS: In Berlin.

JK: Well, yeah, you can call that. And the rest of Africa was created that way, including

Ethiopia. O.K? Even though Ethiopia was not colonized the same way like us, but they sat down with the colonizers and they divided their maps, and they agreed Eritrea is an Italian Colony. They signed

4 John Kidane 5 out Djibouti to French; it was part of Ethiopia. Ah, but again, you have to understand that kingdom in that area was like whoever was powerful taxed everybody and considered it its own colony. So the

Ethiopians in the center were the most dominant. When they went to the South, they used force to incorporate the South. And South has its own kingdom in history, so we're not going to go there for the purpose of our discussion today. But Eritrea had its own identity. Where there was an identity of

Eritrea, there was also even disagreement with immediate, ah, ah, ah, neighbors of Tigray, which were also kings. , and even Alula had its own problem in Eritrea. He killed the king of Eritrea, he was named Rasfodemikael. This is in the history, recent history. And then, like anybody in Africa, like any country in Africa, we were given that part of Africa, which is called Eritrea. So the Italians came and created modern communication. They brought their modern roads, ah, economy, and they were there to live. They didn't have no intention to leave Eritrea. It was a permanent home to them.

The reminiscent of that was that, like, even now you’ll see a lot of Italian-Eritreans from that era.

Hundreds and thousands.

LS: There were lots of residents then, right?

JK: Oh my God. 250,000 Italians ---

LS: Oh, really?

JK: --- lived in Eritrea. Eritrea is a country of 3.5 million. We had 250,000 Italians at the end of 1977, when the war was out of control.

LS: So, when they lost Eritrea in World War II, the Italian residents just stayed?

JK: They stayed.

LS: And they weren't forced out?

JK: They were not forced out. They were married, they were intermarried, and they stayed.

They had the economy. They left them to hold on to the economy. Even Haile Selassie didn't touch it.

LS: So the British just sort of nominally took over, but they didn't really force the Italians out?

5 John Kidane 6

JK: No. It wasn't wise, because economically, the government of Ethiopia benefited.

LS: Do people could speak Italian at all there?

JK: I do speak some Italian, to tell you the truth. I'm one of the young generation. My father spoke fluent. Older Eritreans, above 45, they speak Italian, most of them.

LS: Educated.

JK: Even people from the countryside.

LS: Oh, really?

JK: Yes.

LS: Did the English language and British culture ever penetrate to the same extent?

JK: It did start. There was a remnant of that, because there was a sort of --- some education that was allowed, during the British, they started bringing their style, their discipline. And I saw my dad went to some kind of training and he was reading Essential English from Cambridge University or Oxford University. Ah, you see the remnants of Longman’s books, the classic book of David Hugo or, you know --- and European books from England. There was that kind of influence by the British.

But it was limited. And --- and also there was a lot of negative stuff they brought in. Ah, their style of divide and rule. That, that was left behind. They --- I think they used, ah, the division line on --- the religion division line --- they used it very well, because in 1946, I believe, or so, before the Federation

--- the Federation was allowed by the UN in 1952. They federated Eritrea to Ethiopia in 1952. Before that, there was a British proposal to divide Eritrea into two: the Muslim part to Sudan and the

Abyssinian, or the Tigrinya and the Christian part, to Ethiopia. And Eritreans came all together, and went against it. So it can tell you that there is an identity called Eritrea. Now when we talk about identity, as a cultural anthropologist, you will say, it has a lot of artificial stuff to it also. Identity can be forged; it can be forged again and again.

LS: Mmm-hmm. And you can have a lot of different identities.

JK: Oh yeah, and you can have a lot --- within also, there is more sub, uh, content of identities. But Eritrean national identity is very strong. You can see it now. You can see that it's a

6 John Kidane 7 strong identity, but there is also a sub-identity to it. And the history of the people of Eritrea is not different than Ethiopia. It has a lot of Jewish culture into it. It has a lot of Yemeni, Arab culture into it, it has a lot of Italian culture into it.

LS: And what's the percentage of Christians to Muslims now?

JK: Well, people say it’s 50-50. Ah, it could be 49-51, 50-50, it’s half and half. Highland, most of it is Christian. The lowland, the lowland is all over. You can’t divide it like this. The lowland goes to the Denakil area, to the Assad area. You go to Massawa area, you go to Sahubarta area, it’s all

Muslim. Huge area is Muslim. Ah, Christians are more agriculturalists, ah, stable. And they're in the highland, because of that. The highland is cooler.

LS: And has Eritrea had religious conflict or has that not been an issue?

JK: It was not --- there is no conflict that you could call a conflict in Eritrea that's major. It wasn't that. But, in the --- when the British were there, and they were allowed to protect it for certain years, they created, they allowed political parties. When they allowed political party, they allowed

Muslim Party. And the Muslim Party wanted Eritrean independence. There was also a progressives, non-se --- what do you call it, non-sectarian --- ?

LS: Mmm-hmm.

JK: Non-secular? What do you call it?

LS: Non-sectarian.

JK: Non-religious.

LS: You mean like a lay one, non-religious.

JK: Non-religious, like the one I said. Eritrea for Eritrea Party. And they were targeted more. They were hit, they were ambushed, they were assassinated. One of them was assassinated ---

LS: By --- ?

JK: By pro-union Ethiopia supporters. And these pro-union Ethiopia supporters were not even from Eritrea, they were from Tigray. Because the Tigray culture speaks the same language as

Eritrea. And they used those populations to become the shifters, or the --- ah, the people, well, the

7 John Kidane 8 rebels, OK? The rebels were predominantly from Tigray. Known rebels, OK? And the history is real. I'm telling you, it's real. They came in and assassinated people from the people Eritrea from

Eritrea. The Muslims, ah, you see, were not that much touched. There was a conflict, at a certain point, where certain people were killed from both sides. But I think the major target were the small group that's called Eritrea for Eritrea, because they had the power and potential to unite people against the pro-union people. So they played this very much and ---

LS: So you’re in the 1970s, and you’re in college, and things start to ---

JK: Fall down.

LS: So then what?

JK: Well, I went out to fight.

LS: Mmm-hmm.

JK: I was part of EPLF. OK? Everybody did. We don't talk about this, ( ) ---

LS: Eritrean People’s Liberation Front.

JK: Eritrean People’s Liberation Front. This is before they became Eritrean People’s

Liberation Front. They were called People's Liberation Front. And I joined the People's Liberation

Front. And, ah, I stayed, ah, I was there until it transformed itself to EPLF in 1977.

LS: And you saw military action. There was military action.

JK: Yeah, yeah.

LS: And where was it and who exactly were you fighting against?

JK: Ethiopia.

LS: Right. So these were --- but it was at the border? It was Ethiopians coming in?

JK: No, Ethiopia controlled Eritrea at that time. Ethiopia was ruling Eritrea.

LS: Right. So you were just going out ---

JK: So we were fighting where Ethiopia is.

LS: OK.

JK: Wherever they are.

8 John Kidane 9

LS: Mmm-hmm.

JK: We were going and fighting. I was in the communication aspect of it. So, I was lucky. I didn't have to, you know, encounter fighting face to face. Of course, it came to me and I was in --- I had to protect myself ---- but I was a communication person. So --- 99 percent of Eritreans were part of, part of the independence movement. I'm proud of it.

LS: And so how long, until what year, did you do this?

JK: Until 1980.

LS: Until 1980?

JK: 1980. And that's time where the Russians were involved fully. Even the Cubans came.

You remember that?

LS: Yeah, I do.

JK: But the Cubans, at some point when they came to Eritrea, they said, “Na-ah. We're not going to Eritrea. We supported you to fight the outside aggression of Somalia. That has ended. We can't fight Eritrea. Eritrea has it's own --- We're not.” But the Russians continued. And the Yemenis also, the South Yemenis. Remember the South Yemenis? They were pro-Soviets.

LS: Oh, yeah.

JK: That was so devastating militarily. It is unimaginable, the firepower. And we had to retreat all the way to Sahel. And a lot of us gave up, a lot of us felt a little bit demoralized. We were not --- I'm not one of the brave ones. , I had to leave to Sudan, you know, peacefully ---

LS: So --- ?

JK: I didn’t defect. I just left. (laughs) Eh? So, everybody was ---

LS: So, was anyone who had been involved being targeted, so you went to Sudan for safety?

JK: Well, the war --- see, I was part of the rebel group that was fighting.

LS: Mmm-hmm.

JK: So when ( ) --- and we were liberating cities. Remember that. Asmara was encircled.

We were liberating cities. We had administration in the cities. Keren was in our own hand, big cities

9 John Kidane 10 in Eritrea are now --- only Asmara and few cities were left. Now the Russians came in and our forces were pushed all the way to the beginning. And that demoralized a lot of us, especially the ones who came from the city like me. You know, who had high hopes that we would be independent very soon.

Pushed our independence ten more years.

LS: Right.

JK: So, at that time, John Kidane said, “Uh oh!” Gave up. So here we are.

LS: Now how old were you at this time? You were young.

JK: Oh man, I was not even twenty.

LS: Not even twenty. OK. So, you go to Sudan, and a lot of people went to Sudan for safety?

JK: Oh yeah, a lot of people went to Sudan.

LS: And at this point your family was still in Asmara and ---

JK: Oh, I didn't know anything about my family at that time. I haven't heard anything about them. I didn't even know they were alive. So when I went to Sudan, communicated with my family, and found out that a lot of them were alive. Some of them joined the army and I didn't know who, which group they were with, because we have two groups at that time. There were two groups, one

ELF, one EPFL. So a sister of mine joined ELF, brother of mine joined EPLF. Both of them died by the way. Ah, my sister ---

LS: At that time, or later?

JK: Well, later. Well, my sister died a year later, 1981. She was in ELF. My brother died in

1984. I was told about this in 1992, here.

LS: In? In when?

JK: ‘92.

LS: You didn't know that until ‘92?

JK: (Pause) That's how it works in Eritrea. You can't individualize it because ---

LS: No, I can't.

10 John Kidane 11

JK: The whole people are fighting. They are one family, they are 3.5 people. They are all family, they are related, they are the same. We feel the same pain when anybody dies in Eritrea. So that's what happened.

LS: So you were in Sudan until when? What did you do in Sudan?

JK: I was in Sudan until --- well, in Sudan I was a --- I was refugee. What they do there is they just give you ID, they register you, they interview you, and they interrogate you, of course. They want to know who you are, and what. And, because you have a military ---

LS: So you were in a camp.

JK: --- you have a military background. So they treat you, for few days they keep you in the camp. And you know what they do later? They give you an ID and they just drop you in the city.

LS: And you have no work, you have no way to live?

JK: Yeah, you got to do it. You've to do it on your own. And what I did was I went to the truck --- uhh, what do you call it? The truck parking lot area, for the trucking ---

LS: Where people have inter-city ---

JK: Yeah, inner-city stuff.

LS: Yeah, I know what you mean.

JK: In Port Sudan, we're talking about Port Sudan. So, in Port Sudan, I met several drivers who were Eritreans. I knew Eritreans are most of the drivers in Sudan. So I went to that parking lot. , you know, it's just an open parking lot. You know Sudan is very hot. I went there and met several people. They gave us some money --- we had other people with me --- gave us some money, gave us some information, where to go, you know. Connected out with a lot of people. We went and we had high hopes. Remember, we had high hopes because we came out from death, and this was nothing to us. You know, it's like, it's no hardship for me. Just seeing somebody sit on a chair was funny for me. You know, coming out from the bush. As if I have never seen a chair. I was laughing at somebody sitting on a chair in the corner. [laughs] And I was laughing. I said I couldn't believe myself. I am seeing a person sitting on a chair. That's funny, why should they sit? On a chair. That's

11 John Kidane 12 what I felt. Anyway, I connected with a lot of people. You have a lot of Eritreans who have the same experience, who are like us. We felt the same thing. We were young people. Oh, I forgot the picture.

I have a picture, which I took two weeks after that. I had a picture with a ‘fro --- young man. But anyway, umm, they allowed us, to, you know, sleep outside their home. In Port Sudan. It’s hot, anyway. And we --- they told us where to go for a job. We went. I was still wearing my fatigue. We went to a place and we were just ( ) and we showed them our ID. They gave us ID. They told us there is a job. And I told them, I speak good English, I went to a British high school.

LS: So you already spoke English well.

JK: Very well. I was very, very fluent. And they told me, “Well, hop up, hop on the truck.

We'll take you somewhere, and that's where the job is.” So I had no expectation, you know, anyway, but we went. They took us two hours away from Port Sudan. A lot of them were South Sudanese.

Southern Fudas(?) ---

LS: Right.

JK: Dinkas and Nuers. Eh, a lot of teeth missing in the front, you know.

LS: Right. (laughs)

JK: They were looking at us and they were looking, "Araby, Araby," you know. I don’t even know Arabic!

LS: And, you were saying, I'm not an Arab.

JK: No, I don’t know Arabic! (both laugh) But, anyway, we went driving and there was lot of dust. It's an open truck. Hair blows, you know, my hair is so ( ), it blows everywhere. Two hours later, then, they took us to a place and there was a pile of mountains and they said you have to sift all those pile of dirt. And, and --- they use it ---

LS: Take the rocks out?

JK: Take the rocks out.

LS: And you needed English for that.

JK: Yeah, and ---

12 John Kidane 13

LS: Wow!

JK: Well, I was given one mountain. And it took me two weeks to sift it. So, they give you daily --- ration daily, and money. So we stayed there for two weeks, made money, worked hard, came back to the city, and I cleaned myself, cut my hair and everything. Then I --- I was very fast.

Well, anyway, I learned some things about pharmacy. And I got job inside a pharmacy building helping out, with about 32 pounds a month. (Claps) There for two months, a driver comes by and looks at me, he says, “Are you John?” I said, “Yeah I'm John.” He says, "I know you." I said,

“Where do you know me?” “Well, I know your dad. We're from the same village.” It's like we're the same family.

LS: Mmmm.

JK: You know, I look like my dad. I guess that's how he knew me.

LS: And you were where? In Khartoum?

JK: In Port Sudan, Port Sudan. Then, he told me that my --- one of cousins is in Khartoum.

You know, a cousin who lived with me, who grew up with me. And I said, “Well, show me his picture.” He showed me his picture and, well, gave me a shirt (laughs), a nice shirt. I have it until last year. He took my picture --- he went me to the studio --- he took my picture, he took it to my brother.

And he told him that I met your brother --- that's how we call it, he considers me his brother. And he sent me money and everything. I had money, he sent me money. I went to Khartoum ---

LS: So he was actually working in Khartoum and ---

JK: Yeah, he was in Khartoum, and he sent me money, he told me to come to Khartoum, but it was forbidden for a refugee in Port Sudan to move to Khartoum. So I had to be like a worker with the trucker. So what I do, is on every checking point I had to go out and hit the tires and check the tires and dirty myself a little bit, get the grease and stuff. I did that, so, you know. Went through, it took me --- we did that at several checkpoints. We went to Madani. He left me in Madani, and from

Madani, it was very close to Khartoum. I took the bus from Madani and we went to Khartoum. I went to Khartoum Talata(?). That’s a place where Eritreans meet.

13 John Kidane 14

LS: Mmm-hmm.

JK: Even the famous musician, singer --- his name is Haile Gogul(?). Very famous guy. He was there, refugee like me. And we met a lot of people. I felt very good, because there were lot of

Eritreans. It felt ---

LS: Was the Sudanese Government trying to keep too many Eritreans from coming into one place?

JK: Yes.

LS: In Khartoum?

JK: Oh, yeah. They were deporting us, they were picking us up. Everywhere.

LS: They wanted to have control over ---

JK: They want to have control over the movement of refugees.

LS: Yeah.

JK: And especially who were in the army.

LS: Yeah, yeah.

JK: They were frightened, so.

LS: Yeah.

JK: ( )

LS: So, you get to this central meeting place and there are all these Eritreans.

JK: Oh, we meet there, and I told them, “I need my brother. His name is Da-da-da-da.” And they said, “Yeah, we know him. He's a driver. He lives in Amarat.” It’s like the best place in the area, where the rich people live. I guess he lives with the rich people. You know, he works for them. And,

“Okay, well --- “

LS: Oh, he's a private driver.

JK: He's a private driver.

LS: I see.

14 John Kidane 15

JK: And he says, “Well” --- the guy says, “Well, I'm going to take you there.” I say, “OK, let's take a cab or” --- what's they call it? Brensa --- it's a small Toyota pick-up stuff, they make it like a transportation, you only sit in the back ---

LS: Oh, they have benches in it and ---

JK: They have benches ---

LS: Yes.

JK: It's an open, and you have to hold on to it.

LS: Yeah.

JK: Yeah, and he says, “No, no, no, no. It’s right here.” And we walk (snaps fingers), we walk, we waste about one hour. “Shhhh, man” --- I say, “Man, we could've picked a cab. Man, I just came from Madani. What is this guy?” So, anyway, we go there. We see my brother coming out. He doesn't know who I am. I've changed so much. And the guy tells him, “Well, I have your relative here. He's somebody who knows you.” And he looks at me, he couldn't know, he couldn't identify me. And then when I smile, he just --- he couldn't believe it. So we joined, you know, stayed with him for few months. He got me a job with the British Consulate as an houseboy. So I worked as a houseboy. You know the British --- I know the British. They taught me very well. So I know how snobby they are, too --- but anyway, but they were good, they were good. They helped me out.

LS: Yeah.

JK: Gave me a job. I was cleaning, I was gardening, I was doing everything. Worked for them for about a year. Went to school. University of Khartoum.

LS: To study what?

JK: It was general studies, basically. But I was mainly in Social Science.

LS: And how many years had it been since you left?

JK: Left?

LS: The University of Asmara, before you ---

JK: Ooo! From 1975 to 1981. Six years.

15 John Kidane 16

LS: In the University of Khartoum, it was English language?

JK: They had English Department. They taught in English.

LS: So that you could ---

JK: At that time, it was Madani(?), it was President Nimeiry time, so they were much more moderate, and not Islamist. So there were some classes in English, and there were some special programs. And they taught me Arabic, too.

LS: Now, do you speak Arabic?

JK: Yeah, yeah. I'm not good enough for interpreting, but I mean I can live in any Arab country. I can survive. I have that, you know, I can understand the news. That's good enough for me.

So, anyway, that's where I went to Sudan, and I --- after that I was able to get a job with Chevron Oil

Company ---

LS: Did you finish university?

JK: No, I didn’t. They only gave me a year. That was a scholarship.

LS: OK, so ---

JK: Yeah, so it was like, ah, small crash. There wasn't enough money for four years. And the

University of Khartoum is also a known university in Africa.

LS: Oh, I know.

JK: We have the most Ph.D.’s in Sudan. Do you know that?

LS: Is that right?

JK: Before this conflict. Yeah, Sudan was one of the most Ph.D.’s in Africa.

LS: Well, I was traveling with Ali Dinar in Dakar and I showed him the University of Dakar and he thought it was just the most pathetic thing he'd ever seen. He said, “You should see the

University of Khartoum!”

JK: Yeah, Khartoum’s big.

LS: “Beautiful architecture!”

JK: Oh, man, Khartoum is beautiful.

16 John Kidane 17

LS: And the University of Dakar this is sort of a dust bowl, you know. And I said --- JK:

Khartoum, Khartoum is --- yeah. Because the Nile goes through there.

LS: Yeah, that's what you were saying.

JK: It's beautiful. “El-Neel,” they call it.

END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE A

Start of Tape 1, Side B

LS: So you get a job with Chevron.

JK: Chevron Oil. It's an American oil company.

LS: Yeah.

JK: Because I knew communication, so, you know ---

LS: Right.

JK: I had a resume, remember? I had a communication's major resume. (both laugh) So, I used that to get a job. And, in fact, I was the administration, administration person for the communication. I was the administrator. And I overlooked programs and sights in South Sudan. So I traveled extensively in South Sudan. So I have a good experience about South Sudan.

LS: Mmm-hmm.

JK: I know places in South Sudan.

LS: And it probably comes in handy now, right?

JK: Yes. It's helpful. Cause I know some places.

17 John Kidane 18

LS: Yeah.

JK: Yeah, I've been in Malakal, I've been Juba. I've been in Bentiu. I've in Kosti El-

Mujalat(?). Very interesting, beautiful place. A lot of oil, too. They have oil.

LS: I hear there are lots of Southern Sudanese coming in the next month.

JK: Yes. There are. We --- I don't know we're gonna get, because we are working only with family reunion cases. These are free cases. Free cases mean people who don't have relatives, so. Ah,

I think they will be limited to the Church ( ).

LS: The Lutheran Children and Family Services are bringing them in?

JK: Yes, yes. And Church World Service.

LS: And Church World Service, too? Oh, okay. Cause I’m going to talk to some of the people at the Lutheran thing.

JK: Yeah, Siddiq should be involved Siddiq is preparing. Have you talked to ---

LS: I know that there’s a lot of concern about how they are going to fit in with the rest of the

Sudanese Community, because they're ---

JK: Well, ahh, well, Siddiq is part of South, so --- he's part of the South. He's from the

Darfur, but he's part of the South, so --- and even Ali Dinar is ---

LS: But he's the West.

JK: Yeah, I know, he's Darfur. But still the Darfur is also part of the Southern part. In the beginning they were, but now I think they are going with the South. Because they're not considered

Arabs.

LS: Exactly, I mean that's what the problem is, right?

JK: Mmm-hmm.

LS: It’s going to be interesting to see how that plays out.

JK: It's unique with the Sudan. Look at me, I don't even call myself Arab, but (clap) when I go to Sudan, I am totally Arab. Even when I go to Yemen, I'm Arab.

LS: Yeah. Yeah.

18 John Kidane 19

JK: In Saudi, nobody touch me. When I wear their jalibiya, nobody will recognize who I am. So people in the Horn and, you know, the Western Middle East, they're very, very connected.

LS: Are there any ethnic groups in Eritrea or Ethiopia that are really, really black-skinned?

JK: Yes.

LS: There are?

JK: Yes. In Eritrea, we have the Kunamas. Very small population, but in Barantu area, where

Ethiopia invaded in May. That's a Kunama area. Kunamas are completely --- they’re the Nilotics. I would say they're the first Eritreans to settle in, in, you know, in that land.

LS: But most of the population has that more ---

JK: Well, but most of us --- the rest of us, we have Semitic and Hamatic from the north of

Africa ---

LS: Lighter skin, longer hair ---

JK: Yeah, lighter skin, longer hair, pointier nose. You can call them southwest Caucasians, that's what they call them.

LS: Mmm-hmm.

JK: So, they have Caucasian --- culture.

LS: So, how long were at Chevron?

JK: Oh, in Chevron, I was there until I came here, until 1982, so.

LS: And how did that work?

JK: In Sudan? Oh, how I came?

LS: How did you get here?

JK: Oh, well, that's resettlement. That's the same thing. You know, I'm the best in it, so you can ask me. Now I'm doing resettlement here. [laughs]

LS: But I mean, this whole time, even though you’re working, you’re still considered a refugee.

19 John Kidane 20

JK: Yeah, yeah. I'm still a refugee. I don't have the privilege of a Sudanese citizenship, and, for example, Chevron Oil Company employees were allowed to come for training to the United

States. And, ah, I was one of the senior employees, in Chevron Sudan, but I would --- I couldn't come.

LS: I see.

JK: The Sudanese Ministry of Communication, Ministry of Oil and Industries, did not allow

Chevron Oil to send non-Sudanese to be trained.

LS: So who sponsored you, then, to come here?

JK: Oh, NSC. [Nationalities Services Center]. Well, IRSA, IRSA, basically the ---IRSA is the Immigration and Refugee Service of America, which is our [Nationalities Services Center] affiliate partnership ---

LS: OK.

JK: --- agency is the one that sponsored me and then they gave us to the local agency,

Nationalities Service Center.

LS: But how did you --- did you --- who did you contact to say you're interested in leaving

Sudan?

JK: Oh, you have to go to the UNHCR.

LS: Mmm-hmm.

JK: UNHCR registered you as a refugee.

LS: Mmm-hmm.

JK: You have an I.D. that's renewable. That's renewed every time. So, I knew --- I mean, I had a good job. I had a good salary.

LS: Mmm-hmm.

JK: But still, you know, I lacked, eh, I lacked --- what can I say? Confidence. Ahh, I knew that at anytime that Sudanese Government will pick up people, anytime they want to.

LS: And so there was no possibility --- they were not accepting ---

20 John Kidane 21

JK: Citizenship?

LS: Yeah, they wouldn't resettle? They wouldn't do. They just --- you were in a temporary situation, with no possibility of staying in Sudan if you wanted to.

JK: Yes.

LS: I see.

JK: But, but, but that could mean twenty years.

LS: But you wouldn't know.

JK: But you wouldn't know, yes.

LS: Yeah, yeah, I see. So this whole time you wanted go someplace where you could be ---

JK: I wanted to go Sudan. It was like a springboard. And, you know, it's totally different culture from us. It's Muslim culture --- it doesn't, it's not --- it doesn't mean we don't have Islam in

Eritrea. It's predominantly, you know, in the area where I lived, even my culture from my father's side, the Asawoulta, there are lot of Muslims. But I think was totally different culture for us. Totally different climate. And we assimilated, to survive, but it was a place where we chose to stay. So we had to ---

LS: And there was no possibility of going back to Eritrea?

JK: Oh, yeah, yeah, well, there was, if Eritrea was to become independent or if there was to going to be some kind of settlement, political settlement, there was a chance of us being part of it.

LS: But things just sort of continued ---

JK: But things continued. They went, uh, worse. There was an offensive that Ethiopia took --

- it's called the, uh, Operation Star. And this was the --- what they called “Sharsagawa” --- the Sixth

Offensive of Ethiopia. This was major war that they fought and beat Ethiopia. They bled Ethiopia, this was in the Sahel area. Ethiopia brought about 300,000 to destroy EPLF in those mountains in the north of Nak’fa. And Eritreans persevered, they won. And that is a significant victory for Eritrea.

That was a city that was liberated and never retaken by Ethiopia. So that's a symbol of Eritrean independence. So, things were getting worse at that time. And we gave up hope that things will be

21 John Kidane 22 stretched and the war went on, you know, and we didn't see any sign of hope. So we said, well, at least we're young people. Let's go out and get educated. We are now in our twenties. You know, we have hope. Let's go get educated and do something good for Eritrea. Even, you know, here, we can't do anything. Over there, the fighting is tough. And I don’t think I could --- you know, I'm not a good, ahh, you know, I couldn't persevere like my brothers and sisters. So I said, “John, go somewhere and make some change.” So that was my choice.

LS: So you came to Philadelphia?

JK: So I came to Philly. And it was in winter.

LS: Did you have any choice about where you went?

JK: No.

LS: They just say, “You're going to Philadelphia.”

JK: “You're going here.” I say, "Where is that?" “It's in the Northeast” ---

LS: You’d never heard of it?

JK: Never. No, I heard of Philadelphia.

LS: You heard the name.

JK: Yes, you know, I read it in history, like the ---

LS: Where else were Ethiopians or Eritreans being resettled?

JK: Being resettled? Everywhere.

LS: Everywhere, like where?

JK: Everywhere, including Chicago, everywhere. Including Buffalo.

LS: No, but where else besides the US?

JK: Oh! Ah, ah, Australia? Canada? They also gave me that. I was approved by Canada and Australia. Canada --- I looked at it, it's all the way in the North. And they showed me ice. I say,

“Uh-oh, no.”

LS: Well, Australia would've ---

JK: Australia? Whew! Way down, down under. I said, “Oh, man!”

22 John Kidane 23

LS: That's far.

JK: Whew! I'm gonna be crazy over there. So I say, “Uh-uh, no. Show me the United

States.” They showed me some black faces. I said, “That’s where I’m gonna go!”

LS: And, where was that? Who was showing you this?

JK: Well, it was orientation and all that, in the UN ---

LS: UN, UNHCR.

JK: So I said, “I think this place looks fine for me.”

LS: And so it was because there are blacks, you knew there were African-Americans.

JK: Well, I thought this is more diverse, that's why. You know, in Eritrea we don't identify people by color. Even if you're white person, I would think of you like me. That's how our culture is in Eritrea.

LS: I think a lot of parts of Africa are like that.

JK: It is? Well, okay, I'm glad you said that.

LS: You know in Senegal, it's like, they will --- as long as you try to fit in, you can be accepted.

JK: That's it. That's it.

LS: So they don't really care about race. They make more distinctions between people of different castes than they do people of different race.

JK: I know.

LS: So I mean, it's a really pretty American thing for people to ---

JK: To, yeah ---

LS: To divide everybody up by color.

JK: To --- it is. Well, this where I learned that ---

LS: That you're ---

JK: --- that I’m black, yeah. I wasn't black enough for some blacks, too.

23 John Kidane 24

LS: Yeah. So between the time you knew you were going to come here and you actually arrived, how much time did you have to psychologically prepare?

JK: I was a busy guy.

LS: Yeah.

JK: I didn't have time to prepare. The last day that I was gonna come, the last day of my, job day at Chevron --- this was an American company, okay? We were told to run out from the building, that they told us there was a bomb in the building. That was my last day in Chevron.

LS: [laughs] My God.

JK: Was the 16th, and I was going to leave on the 17th.

LS: Oh my God!

JK: We ran out. I never returned.

LS: But there is no bomb?

JK: They sent me the check here.

LS: And they sent you a check.

JK: They mailed me the check. I couldn't --- I didn't collect my check.

LS: My God.

JK: So ( ), I was so busy.

LS: So you work for an American company and they sent you the check? [LS laughs]

JK: Yeah, they sent me the check. They sent me here, to NSC.

LS: So you arrive here. You get on a plane, and you go --- ?

JK: I totally wasn't ready for it. I was a busy person, I had staff under me, including

American staff ---

LS: Because they said, “Now you gotta go.”

JK: You gotta go, you gotta go, so --- (clap). You gotta leave, that’s it. You're refugee. Go with people who are not, you know, prepared. I mean, I was well --- I was an --- I mean, they called me “muwazaff,”(?) meaning a professional, like I work, I have a job. I organize, I work from 8 hours

24 John Kidane 25 a day, I am a busy guy. I'm --- you know, I travel, I fly, and suddenly, poof! I'm a refugee. [JK laughs] That was hard to swallow. It was hard. It was like --- I thought I was like pulled back a hundred years.

LS: Yeah, I can imagine.

JK: And people here, they treat you ( ). Someone at the airport called me, putting his finger like, “Come here, come here, come here.” And I say, “Who the hell is that guy?” He was an Asian fellow.

LS: That was here?

JK: Yeah, he was an Asian fellow. I say, “Who the fuck is this guy?” I say --- you know ---

[claps]

LS: “I’m an important person” ---

JK: “Listen, listen. I don’t need this tag here. My name is John and I speak English.” And he says, “Oh, okay, okay. I’m going to take you to the hotel today. You’ll stay there. Today is” --- what?

I don’t remember --- it was, like, a Thursday. “And then the next day we’ll come and take you. Our office is next door.” And this is the hotel.

LS: That’s where you stayed?

JK: That’s where they stayed me. On the eleventh floor.

LS: Were there any other people who came on the place with you?

JK: None whatsoever.

LS: Just you?

JK: Just me here. Well, we --- three hundred people came in from Sudan. We went to Athens.

In New York, like, everybody went everywhere.

LS: Oh, I see, I see. And only you came to Philadelphia?

JK: I came to Philadelphia. Nobody else.

LS: And that’s because they had a place here? What was that all about?

JK: This was where I was resettled. This is where I was ---

25 John Kidane 26

LS: I know, but what ---

JK: The agency took me --- they pick you, and then they --- it’s like, the Department of State in Washington, DC, when they give cases to the vol-orgs(?), they just divide them. And I don’t think they have a choice.

LS: So it was just a ---

JK: It was just a coincidence.

LS: Okay, so you arrived here and it’s January? Or what --- February?

JK: It was December. Snowing.

LS: And did you have a coat?

JK: Well, they gave me a jacket. I had a coat, but it wasn’t good enough for --- it wasn’t insulated. But I had a coat, a woolen coat. And I had nice dress and everything, but it wasn’t properly dressed.

LS: And you walk out of the airport and you almost pass out?

JK: Yeah, like, my nose was about to crack. It was, like, numb. [LS laughs] I say, “What is wrong with my nose?” It was just like --- my face is like --- [sighs] unbelievable. So anyway ---

LS: It must have been a shock.

JK: Yeah, that was. But again, I’m a fighter, so --- I said, “I am a fighter. I’ve fought before.

In different, harsh conditions.” Remember, I went from the city --- my father is a middle-class man --- you know, we never walked to school. To tell you the truth. We had a person who delivered bread each day at noon. That kind of a family.

LS: Yeah. And then you went out and fought.

JK: And then I had to --- I had to create a sole on my feet, to be a strong person, and I’ve been there before, so I said, this is nothing. I’m going to fight this. And, you know, it was weird, but I did it. I just --- I tried my best. And I couldn’t believe how uncivilized people were, when I first came here.

LS: What do you mean?

26 John Kidane 27

JK: Because I had expectation. All those things you see in the streets. People look at you bad, people don’t help you when you’re lost, people don’t tell you where to go, people don’t cooperate.

People are “me first.” When you go to the bus, you are, like, you want to let people go in --- they don’t let you in. This is no culture to me. People are very egoistic. “My turn!” “You cut in my line!”

See, I don’t know that culture. That was totally alien for me.

LS: They haven’t had the British to show them how to queue up ---

JK: You see, they needed about fifteen years. [LS laughs] But I thought you guys had it.

LS: ( )

JK: Oh, yeah, you forgot. You forgot. I know, I know. But, again, this was the thing I learned. And I was like, what is this?

LS: There are parts of the United States where people are more polite.

JK: I know. But I came in here first.

LS: But you didn’t know. I’m just telling you that in case ---

JK: See, that’s what they call a stereotype, you see ---

LS: I’m from the Midwest and I know that people are a little bit more laid-back there.

JK: Calm and nice. This is the East.

LS: This is a very harsh city.

JK: Yeah, the East. It’s tough to start here. But, anyway ---

LS: So what were your first experiences? You arrived --- what did they do with you? The next day, they bring you here ---

JK: Put me in the hotel. Put me in the hotel. They told me, “You need food.” We went out and got food. We, you know, again, you know, umm, came to the office. The whole file intake. They ask you what your job was, what your education background is, what’s your plan, what are you eligible for, this and this and that. You have to go to the doctor, do this, do that. They set you up with the --- for physical, they set you up for --- they set Social Security. “What security? There’s no need

27 John Kidane 28 of security. What’s this security stuff? Is it a clearance?” “No, it’s a number which you’ll be given, like a tag. It’s like a tag. Everybody’s tagged.” I say, “Fine.”

LS: This is 1982?

JK: This is ’82.

LS: So pre-AIDS scare, so they don’t make you go through ---

JK: Oh, yeah, there was nothing like that before. Yeah, yeah.

LS: They didn’t check you for --- they don’t check you for STDs or ---

JK: No, they check you --- no, no, they do STD check. They do STD. They do tuberculosis checks.

LS: Is this here or in Sudan?

JK: In Sudan. Before you come. Prior to your arrival. And then after you come here you do all those things. We did all that. We did all that. But anyway --- they gave me orientation and all that.

They gave me some packets to read. They set me up, all those things. They did the Social Security card. And they said, “You might need to go to Welfare.” I said, “What is Welfare?” I have no expectation. I’ve never heard of Welfare. They said, “( )” Okay, what is it like? So I go there and I see people who have given up. People who are totally depressing. “Man,” I said, “Do we have to wait five hours or so?” They keep you there, because you do everything in one day.

LS: Why didn’t they think that you could get a job right away?

JK: I have no idea.

LS: But that wasn’t a good employment period, actually.

JK: It wasn’t. It was tough.

LS: It was a bad a time.

JK: Yeah, this was during Reagan. Reaganomics. That was tough.

LS; But even ---

JK: It was hard to get a job.

LS: They thought it was better to go on welfare than to ---

28 John Kidane 29

JK: Well, they wanted me to --- they want you to get your medical assistance.

LS: Right.

JK: You have to do that. Cause we want them to get their medical assistance. If you get them

--- if you take them after employment, they won’t be eligible for it. But if you get them before employment, it sticks with you.

LS: I see.

JK: For a little while. Even if you get a job. So you get coverage. I think they do it for medical assistance.

LS: So you go in the most depressing atmosphere ---

JK: The most depressing. I’ve never heard of it. I’ve never heard of that and seen that. They just treat you like --- [pause] “Where you from?” They’re mostly African-Americans, the ones who are interviewing people. And they just --- you feel terrible. But I said, “Ah! I got a long way to go.

I’m not going to be discouraged.” So I stayed. I stuck on it. I had --- I remember when they asked me

--- as I said, I told you this before --- “What’s up?” I never knew “What’s up” meant. You know what

I did when they told me “What’s up?” I looked up. [LS laughs] That’s what I did. I looked up. I did.

You know --- it’s a totally --- and it’s hard. And you have to hear it very carefully, because they eat the, uh, the language. They eat up, you know, the accent.

LS: The accent’s really different.

JK: Especially when the African-Americans --- yeah. But anyway, it was an interesting experience.

LS: Well, how long were you --- so did you get on Welfare?

JK: Yeah.

LS: For how long?

JK: I got some food stamps. For about three months or so.

LS: That’s good. Well, that’s a good program if it’s used well.

JK: Then I got a job. Well, that was very long for me. I hated waiting for the check. Yep.

29 John Kidane 30

LS: And what did you do? Did they find you a place to live or did you ---

JK: Oh, no. I had to find myself.

LS: And where did you go?

JK: I went to my community. My community --- well, Eritreans. I met several Eritreans in the streets and they asked am I the new person? I need to meet with somebody else. [snaps] They got me people, they connected me, they came to me and they took me, they invited me. I stayed with them for a week. And ---

LS: And how long had they been here? Because people didn’t really come until 1980, right?

There were no African refugees ---

JK: Ah, there were a few. There were a few Eritreans. There were Eritreans here, and

Ethiopians who came in the ‘70s. So we had a small community.

LS: But it wasn’t big?

JK: It wasn’t at all --- you can’t find them. It was --- but when I saw one ---

LS: You saw someone on the street?

JK: Yeah, walking. And I know the walk.

LS: Uh-huh.

JK: I don’t have to see the face. I run and got him --- [snaps] “Hey, are you Abyssinian?”

“Yeah.” “What language do you speak? Do you speak Tigrinya or Amharic?” He says he speaks both.

And I said, “Well, I speak Tigrinya and Amharic, too.” And then I find out he’s Eritrean. I say, “Oh, my God.”

LS: So if you ask someone if they’re Abyssinian, that could cover both?

JK: At that time, especially. Cause we came in as Ethiopians. Remember that.

LS: Yeah, you came as an Ethiopian.

JK: Yes. Not that I wanted to be. I didn’t even tell them I was Ethiopian. My ID says

Eritrean. In Khartoum. But the Americans processing puts you as ---

LS: They didn’t recognize Eritrea so ---

30 John Kidane 31

JK: They don’t recognize, so they put you as Ethiopia.

LS: That’s a blow.

JK: Yeah. Didn’t care too much about it, but anyway --- I understood. So.

LS: So they hooked you into --- was it mostly young men who were here?

JK: There were mostly young men.

LS: So they were around your age, younger twenties, and they had been fighting.

JK: They had been fighting. Remember, I came married.

LS: You came here what?

JK: Married.

LS: You came here married?

JK: Yes.

LS: You had a wife?

JK: Oh, yeah.

LS: Where was your wife?

JK: She’s with me, all this way. She’s with me.

LS: But she came with you ---

JK: She came with me. We married in 1981. Okay? Just before I came here.

LS: In Sudan?

JK: Yeah, in Sudan.

LS: And she’s Eritrean?

JK: She’s Eritrean.

LS: Oh, okay.

JK: So we came in together. And she was pregnant by the way.

LS: I see. Now I didn’t know that. So she came pregnant?

JK: Yeah.

LS: That’s not a ( ).

31 John Kidane 32

JK: That’s --- that’s major.

LS: So you would get medical ---

JK: Major, major.

LS: How far along was she?

JK: Six months.

LS: Oooo. That’s scary. [pause] Okay, so if you’re married I can see why you’d want ( ) ---

JK: Oh, no, no, no. They could separate you. They could separate. They could get you a job.

She could still go. They could do that, too. But anyway, they didn’t.

LS: But they accepted ( ) ---

JK: ( )

LS: So you ended up finding a place and getting settled before your ---

JK: I found my --- I find it my own. I went to South Philly myself. I did it all by myself. And

I had a couple of checks that I got from Sudan. Chevron Sudan. They were American checks, too.

They were Chevron Oil from San Francisco. Of course, it took ten days to clear, but ---

LS: There’s no Chevron Oil here. There was no possibility of working with Chevron again?

JK: Um, no. No, there was, there was. There was, but I didn’t want to got through it.

LS: You didn’t want to work with them?

JK: I didn’t want to got through it anyway.

LS: Those capitalist bastards.

JK: Yeah, yeah. And they wouldn’t treat me the same. I knew that. So that’s okay --- I left it.

They used me there. Of course, I was needed. When you’re not needed, where you are not needed, you’re scrapped, basically. But there was some opportunity, but I didn’t want to do it.

LS: So, had your wife been a refugee also in Sudan?

JK: Yeah. She’s a refugee, yeah.

LS: So, and she wanted to come here, too?

JK: We had no other choice.

32 John Kidane 33

LS: You had no other choice.

JK: Yeah. Of course, we had choices. Those choices. But they were --- this was the best one.

LS: But what was it like for her then to have a baby and have no family around? That must have been hard.

JK: That was shocking. That was shocking. I had nobody to help me out. And I was a young man. Very young.

LS: So you were in your early twenties.

JK: I’m supposed to be in school. To say the least. I should be in college. I had no facial hair.

[LS laughs] Yeah, yeah. That was tough. That was tough. But again, that gave me energy, though.

That gave me more responsibility.

LS: So what did you end up doing eventually for work?

JK: Well, they placed me in a job as a clerk somewhere in the Chinatown area. I worked there for five months. Went to college, community college.

LS: In Philadelphia?

JK: In Philadelphia. Doing okay. And there was a position here [NSC], a trainee position. I took that position here and I kept going to college. Went to Temple. Undergraduate school. School of

Social Work. And I think now, it’s what? The year 2000. [JK laughs]

LS: So how long have you been here [NSC]?

JK: Well, since 1983. So about 16 years and a half.

LS: Well, you must like it. You must like it.

JK: Ah, well, I am part of the furniture. I enjoy helping people. And I do a lot of things here, not only work programs, but also help my people, help my country, too.

LS: So over the whole 16 years you’ve been here, have you seen a lot of Eritreans come in?

JK: Thousands.

LS: And Ethiopians.

JK: Ethiopians, too. Yes.

33 John Kidane 34

LS: How big do you think those two different communities are in the Philadelphia area? In the Delaware Valley?

JK: Well, I would round them up around 5,000.

LS: Together or --- ?

JK: Together.

LS: So do you think there’re only 5,000?

JK: I don’t think there are more than 5,000. In Southeastern Pennsylvania.

LS: So that’s Eritreans and Ethiopians.

JK: Yeah.

LS: What’s your wife ended up doing?

JK: Oh, uh, well, she went to school and, basically, she managed a gift shop.

LS: And how many children do you have now? Or you just have that one child?

JK: [claps] Yeah! You know that was a shock for me already, so --- [LS laughs] once I was shocked, I couldn’t get out, so --- so it was like ---

LS: Son or daughter?

JK: It’s a boy.

LS: And he’s how old? He’s sixteen?

JK: Sixteen. He’s going to be seventeen.

LS: Wow.

JK: 6’1. 6’1. His name is Abraham.

LS: Does he speak Tigrinya?

JK: Yes, he speaks some Tigrinya. We called him Abraham because he was born in exile. Do you know what that means? Uh-huh. His name is Abraham because he was born Canaan.

LS: He’s never been back to ---

JK: I took him. I took him to Eritrea in ’93.

LS: And how was that?

34 John Kidane 35

JK: It was wonderful. He was eleven years old. [JK laughs] But it was wonderful.

Wonderful.

LS: Who’s left --- who’s left in your family now? In Asmara?

JK: Well, I didn’t, I didn’t see my dad. He was dead already. He died in 1990. Before

Eritrea’s liberation, which was in 1991. So I wasn’t able to see him. I left when I was a teenager, and

I was never able to see him. I met my mom and I met my sisters who were about --- one was a year old when I left. Okay? One was a three years old. One was about five years old. And the one that was seven years old is here. I brought him.

LS: Oh, you brought him?

JK: Yeah.

LS: And he’s with you still?

JK: He’s on his own. But --- yeah, he’s on his own. His girlfriend is Indian.

LS: What was it like to see your mother after all that time?

JK: It’s, it’s --- I think the best would have been a videotape, but they didn’t videotape it, for some reason they couldn’t videotape. They had a video camera but they didn’t videotape. It was --- uh

--- it’s very hard to explain. You know, the airplane --- we were on an airplane and there were about, what? 150 Eritreans going to Eritrea, most of them for the first time.

LS: Since they had left?

JK: Yeah. So when it was about to land, about two hours before landing, they started the party, in the air(?), the dancing and everything. And, uh, I can’t explain it. Dynamic ---

LS: Your son must have been ---

JK: Yeah, he was like --- [LS laughs] You know, he just does like this. He is ---

LS: So it was just pure joy? People didn’t feel, umm, nervous?

JK: Oh, they were nervous, but they felt they --- when --- if they express it using this ritual, it gives you more control of your nervousness. But I am not a party person, so I was, like, nervous. And

35 John Kidane 36 when the airplane was about touching the ground, my stomach just went --- flipped over. Just, just, completely, I was like out of it. Like I couldn’t believe!

LS: This is ’93.

JK: This is ’93.

LS: And so was your whole family at the ---

JK: They were at the airport.

LS: Did you recognize your mother?

JK: There were 40. 40.

LS: 40 of them.

JK: 40 of ‘em. Women wearing that shawl, the white shawl. Oh, man. I couldn’t recognize who was who.

LS: You couldn’t?

JK: I couldn’t.

LS: You couldn’t.

JK: I couldn’t.

LS: Could you recognize your mother?

JK: Oh, yeah, I did, somehow. At some point. It took me time. Cause they were coming --- you know, it’s like coming from darkness, you just --- and they use that noise ---

LS: The ulale?

JK: Yes, they do that. And they had flowers, they had popcorns, they throw the popcorns. ( )

LS: Was your wife with you?

JK: No.

LS: Just your son?

JK: Just me and my son. My wife went in 1995.

LS: And her family ---

JK: And her family --- and her family were there, too. And I don’t know them.

36 John Kidane 37

LS: Right, because you would never have --- wow.

JK: That’s my first time. So, it was crazy. It’s, like, they kiss you hard and it was hurting. It was hurting. Everywhere. I have a lot of bones to show [LS laughs] so they were hurting me. It was, like, it was like a sore face the whole week. And everybody comes --- what happens is, when I went home --- I’ve started crying already, when the airplane ---

LS: Of course.

JK: I was, like, dripping. I was, like, wet all over. Just like --- cleaning my face everywhere.

And what happened is, my aunt comes and --- she wasn’t in the airport. She comes, I cry with her.

And then she sits down. Her husband comes, I cry. Her children comes, I cry. It’s like it’s been three days crying, crying, crying, crying, crying. And I couldn’t eat. It was, like, it was a lot of emotion. I think it was good. It was very good for me.

LS: Yeah, you must feel like you’ve purged something out of your system.

JK: Off my system, yeah. It was a painful one. I think if this was taped --- because I’m a very emotional person --- it would have been dynamic, somehow. It would have been a dynamic sample of how refugees go back home and feel. This is what I say: I was pushed out of my home. I never had any dream to get out from my home. For no reason. Because I had everything at home.

END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE B

START OF TAPE TWO, SIDE A

LS: It must have been very interesting for your --- can your son talk about that now, what it was like -

-- ?

JK: Oh, yeah, he says, “Oh, man, these guys were crying at everything! They were crying everywhere! Man!” He was like ---

LS: Well, that’s what I mean. Cause he’s eleven --- to see his father ( ) emotion, but it must have been something very powerful for him to see.

37 John Kidane 38

JK: It is, it is. I think it’s good for him. I think he knows how strong my connection with my family and my country is. I’m a sample, and he will understand. I think he will assume everybody is the same. And I think he has a good tie with the Eritrean community, so --- umm, but that’s how emotional it was.

LS: Well, what do you miss the most about Eritrea? If you could go back right now, if everything --- would you? Or do you think that you’re ---

JK: Well, see, the toughest part for us, in this generation, who are still young, but, umm, we lost our, you know, the time that we should be, umm, teenagers. We didn’t have the life of the teenagers that we should have. We were disrupted by the war. We went in to achieve the national responsibility before we were matured about it. And so we matured very fast. We took the responsibility. We even wanted to sacrifice for our country. We sacrificed for our country. My younger brother and my younger sister died for it. I was not even too young to die. They were too young to die. They died for it. So we took this kind of responsibility and it, um, um, you know, you have to look at it that way.

And we were too young, so we were disrupted. You see, that part of our life was disrupted. We lost our generation. Our generation went [makes “psst” sound] in the first war. In the ‘70s. To early ‘80s.

And then, the next younger generation, which is the younger --- our younger brothers and sisters, they were wiped out in the war. The third one, they brought the independence. The fourth one, now, the children that I left behind, my one-year old brothers and my three-year old sisters, my five-year old sisters, are fighting a war now. So that’s what makes it very difficult for us. We’ve lost four generations. I mean, generation in a sense of definitive, uh, uh, what can I say? Look at it philosophically. Generation to me is not just our generation, the people who are living one life and died. No, no. Generation is who is your generation, of your age, in the ‘60s, what was your group?

LS: Right, it’s like your age mates ---

JK: I would say just ( ) age mates, yeah, ten years differences.

LS: Right, I understand.

38 John Kidane 39

JK: And that is what I mean. So we’ve lost all this connected generations. Or you could call them sub-generations. And that’s the most, the most pain for a person like me, who’s been watching all these things, from the beginning. I was born in the war, in the midst of the war. The war started in

’61. Okay? And we have --- we --- we were forced to the war, because of the Ethiopian brutal rule and indiscriminate persecution. It made us think more. If they persecute us this much, then we shouldn’t have no reason not to fight.

LS: So somebody has told me that it was really kind of the concerted effort of Eritrean refugees here that brought independence about.

JK: Yes.

LS: And how did that work?

JK: Well, you see, even the French are trying to put our --- a proposal in the United Nations Security

Council to prohibit the money that flows from the Eritreans in diaspora to Eritrea. The French are trying to that.

LS: Why?

JK: I think they have their own personal interest issue in this conflict with Ethiopia.

LS: So they want to limit how much ---

JK: They want to limit all the money that goes from us to Eritrea. They must be stupid. We did it when we had no government.

LS: And how did you get the money there?

JK: Well, we had our own channel. We channeled our money legally.

LS: But concretely how did it work? You, you ----

JK: Well, we contributed money and we contributed medicines. We contributed clothing. We contributed skills, so Eritrea can be self-sufficient itself. It produced its own medicine. We contributed in mass organizations, organized people. Created consciousness, lobbied for independence. We organized our people. We supported our independence. Basically.

LS: And do you think the Eritreans in ---

39 John Kidane 40

JK: Like the Jews.

LS: In the U.S. did it more than those in other places? Or from all over the world?

JK: Eritreans in the U.S. and in Italy did the best. Okay? They contributed the most.

LS: Did they do this through --- they created organizations so that there was a high level of efficiency in this?

JK: Yeah. We were organized. Centralized. We had women’s organizations. We had a youth association.

LS: And you still ---

JK: We had a workers’ association. We do. We had children’s clubs. We were organized by profession. Okay? Doctors had their own associations. They helped. They went and interned or served, because we had hospitals, we had pharmaceuticals. It was very fascinating, if you read

Thomas Keneally’s book, “Towards Asmara.” You know Thomas Keneally?

LS: I know the name. I never read it.

JK: “Schindler’s List.”

LS: Yeah.

JK: There’s an article from him, recently he wrote it. I think that would be very good for you.

LS: Yeah, yeah.

JK: I don’t know where I have it, but I can give it to you.

LS: Okay.

JK: Thomas Keneally. He had an article on July 10th or 11th. Of his current visit in Eritrea. And he’s an Australian, so --- so, you know, it was all organized. What we did was we organized, we were part of the, uh, a mass organization. We had political discussions. We supported Eritrean resolutions. We sent representatives for meetings and congresses in liberated Eritrea. And I think we kept in touch with our home. Like the Jews, we brought Eritrea.

LS: What have your relations been like with the Ethiopians here?

40 John Kidane 41

JK: It was very cordial. I still have a lot of good friends. Even a week ago, there was a christening party, christening day for one of my Ethiopian friends, who has prominent Ethiopians from Ethiopia, who came in from Ethiopia, who are known intellectuals. They called me, because we always have a dialogue. They called me to find out what’s happening. I wasn’t able to make it, cause I had people from New York, but we met at another day and we had a discussion. So I still keep in touch with a lot of Ethiopians.

LS: What about more formal organizations? Do people tend to ---?

JK: Formally, we are different. Formally, we have nothing to do together.

LS: So, you’ve never had any common associations from that part of --- you know, like a pan-Horn of Africa association?

JK: Well, no. Ethiopians do not accept Eritrean entity. They’re still in the dream world. They haven’t accepted Eritrea’s independence.

LS: I was talking to ---

JK: They have not accepted the reality yet. So, they have hardship formally working with us. I even attempted to organize a cooperation, collaboration between African associations. I invited Ethiopians.

The Sudanese, Siddiq, the Somalis. Angolans came in, Eritreans came in. I brought them all together.

And Ethiopians didn’t like it. Because if they do, they are accepting --- even if you go to the

Ethiopian Community [Center], they still have the map of Eritrea inside the Ethiopian map.

LS: Yeah, I noticed that.

JK: So, and you know --- and they don’t want to formalize any connection with any formal Eritrean organization here. Because formalizing means that they have recognized --- even their government now recognizes Eritrea’s independence, even though they are fighting it. But the people here, especially from the center, the Amharas, do not. I think the Oromos and the Tigrays are a little bit okay. I don’t know about the Tigray now because they are in the power, because of their conflict with

Eritrea now, I’m not sure now. But they always supported Eritrea’s independence.

LS: And what about the church? How is the Ethiopian Church ---

41 John Kidane 42

JK: That’s purely Ethiopian church.

LS: But do Christian Eritreans practice pretty much the same religion?

JK: We do, we do, we do. We do have the same church. We have similar denomination in Eritrea, the

Orthodox, the Eastern Church. However, Ethiopia’s church has been very political from the beginning.

LS: I went there the other day and I had been told before that most Eritreans go to the Greek

Orthodox Church.

JK: Yes, we do.

LS: So how was the creation of the church political? Did they try to be inclusive?

JK: No.

LS: They didn’t want to be inclusive of Eritreans.

JK: I don’t think so. I haven’t seen --- I think they were not refusing if --- but I haven’t seen the effort. I didn’t see the effort. There was a person who was married to an Eritrean, he’s Eritrean, I could say he’s Eritrean --- the only guy who supported them, very actively. And there were Eritreans who are pro-Eritrea who said, “Well, it’s religion. Let’s go.” In the beginning. But now, I don’t think they are going. But predominantly, Eritreans didn’t want to go. Because these people, they, they, ah, they, they preach for Ethiopian unity. And that means --- “unity” means --- when you bring the

“unity” in Ethiopia, it means you’re talking about anti-Eritrean sentiments.

LS: What about the --- as far as I understood, I was talking to the priest the other day after the service, because, of course, I didn’t understand any of it. Except during one announcement they said

“Camden, New Jersey” and that I understood. But the service is in Amharic or is it in sort of a sacred, older version of Amharic?

JK: Well, they use Amharic.

LS: They use Amharic.

JK: They use Amharic, but when they are chanting they use the Ge’ez language, which is common to us.

42 John Kidane 43

LS: Okay, that was my question. So the difference--- if you had an Eritrean church, the sermon and all that would be in Tigrinya ---

JK: In Tigrinya, but ---

LS: But the sacred language ---

JK: But the sacred language would be the same.

LS: And what's the sacred language called?

JK: Ge’ez.

LS: Ge’ez.

JK: It’s a Semitic language. It’s one of the four. Hebrew, Yiddish, Arabic, Ge’ez. These are the four

Semitic language in ( ).

LS: But both Tigrinya and Amharic are descendents of ---

JK: Descendents of Ge’ez. Tigrinya is more Ge’ez than Amharic. Amharic has more, uhh, more

Southern mix into it, more African mix into it.

LS: Do you go to church?

JK: No.

LS: Okay.

JK: I go sometimes. I’m not a frequent --- I don’t frequent ---

LS And which church do you go to?

JK: Well, I --- I have --- I’ve went to the Greek Orthodox Church.

LS: The one in West Philly?

JK: The one in West Philly. But I’ve also went to the Ethiopian Church for certain reasons. When somebody died or when there is some occasion. You know, I’ve given them hope that whatever is doing is okay for their own community, because I serve everybody here. But as an Eritrean, I don’t go there and worship there. I have my own Eritrean Church. Otherwise, I’ll go to the more international church that doesn’t wave flags. [laughs]

43 John Kidane 44

LS: They do have a flag in there, I noticed that. The Greek Orthodox Church, do they have other, do they have ---

JK: They have everybody.

LS: Do they have Russians?

JK: They have the Armenians, they have Greeks, they have everybody. They have the Egyptian

Coptics.

LS: And they preach in English?

JK: And they preach in English. Yeah. And Greek, sometimes.

LS: That’s interesting. I was just kind of about how that ---

JK: No, there is some division, even in the Ethiopian Church. There is some division.

LS: You mean, even in ---

JK: Here, in Philly. Uh-huh. There’s a split.

LS: And what’s that all about? ( ) I didn’t hear that from them.

JK: Well, they’re not going to tell you. There was one Ethiopian, Amharic-speaking priest who was fired, who was removed in a sense. He was allowed --- I think he was forced to resign, somehow.

LS: And he was an Amhara?

JK: He was an Amhara. I don’t know if he was a saint. [laughs] But I know that he was removed.

And I think he or others who are Amharic may be --- some few, not all of them, some few ones --- I think have started their own.

LS: But the priest now?

JK: The priest now is Tigrinya speaker. He is from Tigray.

LS: But was he preaching in Amharic or in --- ?

JK: No, he can do anything. He can do in Amharic, he can do in Tigrinya. He’s a nice guy. But still, he’s from Tigray. And Tigray is the, uhh, the dominant in Ethiopia now. And that is a concern. I’m not sure how damaging it’s going to be. But I don’t think it’s going to be helpful. I know the church is

44 John Kidane 45 very strong and they’re doing very good. I support them, too. I mean, what they did is very good.

They have their own place. But I think this kind of problems always happens anyway.

LS: It’s a beautiful church.

JK: Yeah, it’s a beautiful church. I visited it.

LS: I was quite ---

JK: Yeah, I think it’s phenomenal. But I didn’t like the division between the Ethiopian community and the Church, either. It’s a waste of money. Okay? Now, why would you buy here and there? Look at the Greeks. They have the community in their church. Huh? They have their church. They have their activities. Why don’t you --- I mean, what’s the big deal? If people say, this is Christian, there is a division between religion --- no, no, no. Ethiopian church is part of the government in Ethiopia.

Okay?

LS: Oh, okay.

JK: Ethiopian Church can be part of the community.

LS: So it’s kind of an organ of the ---

JK: Yeah. If you are afraid of the Muslim Ethiopians, have a mosque inside that community. On one of the corners. Put it together. Why do you have to spend money on that and then you have that?

That’s not good. That’s going to create division in the community.

LS: Sounds like it already has.

JK: Yeah. So, but anyway.

LS: Do you tend to socialize with a lot of Eritreans?

JK: Yeah.

LS: Would say that’s mostly what your social circle is?

JK: Oh, no, no. I mean, I have Americans, like you. I have Americans. I have Sudanese friends. I have Africa, Liberian friends. I also associate with South Africans. I have a very good connection with South Africans.

45 John Kidane 46

LS: Oh, and I want to talk to you about that late. And I’d also, in a minute, would like to come back to your idea of having a meeting of other community associations.

JK: Coalitions, yeah.

LS: So don’t let me forget. Where do --- in what kind of situation do Eritreans tend to socialize or meet or gather?

JK: Well, when we have war? [laughs]

LS: No, no, here in Philadelphia.

JK: Yeah, here in Philadelphia. When we have war. Here.

LS: ( ) Okay.

JK: When there is war, we get together. [snaps fingers] We take action. What do we do? How do we help our people? We have 1.5 million displaced now, for example.

LS: How many?

JK: 1.5 million people displaced. You can ask the UNHCR. You can ask Amnesty International, uhh,

Refugee International in Washington, D.C.

LS: Where are most of them?

JK: They’re in the caves.

LS: They’re what?

JK: Caves.

LS: Caves where?

JK: Caves, the canyons. The gorge. They’re outside, in the desert, everywhere.

LS: So you’re talking about 1.5 million ---

JK: Internally displaced.

LS: Internally. Okay.

JK: IDPs. So when we have this kind of occasion, we get together. We search our pockets, we contribute money. We will have an ad hoc committee. We always have committees. We do that. And

46 John Kidane 47 we have certain anniversaries that we remember. Okay? we have, of course, Christmas. We meet, we have a party at Christmas. We have a festival in Washington, D.C. Oh, that’s the biggest! August 11th.

LS: Right. I know. I’m going to see if I can make it, but I’m not sure.

JK: And I know Trish is going to be there.

LS: Well, I should talk to her. She might be able to be my eyes and ears.

JK: I’ll be there, too. And we also have --- you have to remember, we have a lot of committees.

LS: [laughs] Eritreans are good at committees.

JK: I’m the contact person of Eritrean Development Foundation. That’s the relief organization that’s assisting Eritrean population. ( )

LS: Do you think if you have a meeting sometime I could attend it?

JK: We will see if it’s possible. We’ll look at it. I know there is going to be a meeting in Washington,

D.C. at that time. And Trish is always active. So we have hook you up. I think we can get you --- we can hide you with her. And come with her.

LS: Well, the thing is, umm, if things get too far out of Philadelphia ( ) and I ( ) locally.

JK: All right, we will see. We have a local organization already. Because I am the contact person.

LS: Of course.

JK: Yeah. Not ( ), but I want to start it and then, you know, get one young person --- get one yuppie -

-- umm, you know, possibly a new graduate who is fresh --- get him in. They don’t know what they are getting into! [laughs] Just get them in! Get them working! I might do that.

LS: Is there an Eritrean restaurant or any kind of bar?

JK: Well, Dahlak is an Eritrean restaurant.

LS: Dahlak is. And I just heard there’s a bar called Asmara Connection.

JK: It’s a new one. Just opened.

LS: Have you been there?

JK: Oh, yeah.

LS: Is it nice?

47 John Kidane 48

JK: Beautiful.

LS: Oh, I should got there then.

JK: You should, you should. Zerai(?), ask for Zerai. He looks like me, by the way. He wears a hat.

You’ll think, “Is this John?!” You’ll see that. He looks like me. He’s the owner.

LS: Now, what’s Eritrean about that bar?

JK: Eritrean? Well, you will see a lot Eritreans talking openly. Talking openly is a culture in Eritrea.

Throwing your hands. Like Italians. You will see Eritrean music, national music. You will see a freedom of a certain expression. And, and, and you will see that kind of hospitality.

LS: Is it mostly Eritreans who got there?

JK: Yeah, that’s where they go.

LS: So that’s a big meeting place.

JK: That’s a big meeting place now. On weekends. And then the Eritrean Community [Center], too.

But I think that’s a bar where you meet a lot of people.

LS: Where do you live? Southwest Philly?

JK: I don’t in Southwest. I live in Southeast.

LS: Oh, Southeast Philly.

JK: Yeah, cause I want some peace. Because if I co in Southwest, everybody’s going to knock my door. I get thirty calls a day, so --- even when I’m at home.

LS: And you live with your wife and son?

JK: And son, yes, yes.

LS: Does your son go to South Philly High?

JK: Yes.

LS: Does he like it?

JK: It’s good. He, uhh, he’s gone for a short time in Bowdoin(?), but that was too far for him. He wanted international affairs, but he’s also focusing there.

LS: So, he’s sixteen, he’s going to be a junior next year?

48 John Kidane 49

JK: Yes.

LS: So he wants to go to college?

JK: Of course he wants to go to college. We’ll force him to go. This is not --- this is not a liberal

American family. He’s gonna go. He’s gonna have to make it. That’s it. There’s no choice here.

[laughs]

LS: Do most people --- I know that you say that people collect money for war-related things, but do most people also send money home to their relatives as a matter of course?

JK: Oh, yeah.

LS: Everybody.

JK: Oh, yeah. Every two months, every month. We were just talking with my wife to send money to one of her nieces who is in Kenya. She wants to go to Cairo, so we’re trying to help her out. And she has another niece in Cairo, so we send money everywhere.

LS: How does the Eritrean community view itself? Vis a vis local Philadelphia society or African

American society or white society or the bigger American society.

JK: Well, I would like you to carry this with you.

LS: Okay.

JK: We want to be --- first of all, we are disappointed that we don’t have a flag on the Parkway.

Okay? For us to be included as people, we have to have a flag there.

LS: Has anyone talked to the ---

JK: Yes, I did talk to a lot of people. The managing director office, even, uh, uh, Fernandez.

Remember Fernandez, Councilwoman Fernandez? She helped me and she sent a letter on my behalf to the managing director for the --- Mayor Rendell’s office. I don’t know who handles it, it’s like, uh, so many things there, so many ups and downs. I don’t know why they don’t have it. And this is a country that was independent in 1993. In New York, you’ll find it everywhere. But in Philadelphia, we’re not included as community. And we are not a small community.

LS: No.

49 John Kidane 50

JK: Okay? We are a community that’s a very successful, self-sufficient, dynamic --- which cares its culture, reflects its culture. They’re not afraid of expressing their views and culture. They’re politically active, they vote, most of them. We’re even having a voter registration drive, so we can influence people.

LS: Are people still coming in or is it mostly that the big wave is here and then people are just living on? Do you still see Eritreans coming in?

JK: There are still people coming in, even DV. DV people are coming in. You know the DV is the diversity visa?

LS: Right.

JK: They are coming in from different states. [knock on door] Yes?

LS: So there are still people coming?

JK: Mmm-hmm.

LS: The diversity visa is the green card lottery? Is that right? Yeah.

JK: That’s it, yeah, sorry. Yeah, I forgot I was being taped.

LS: Umm --- why? Diversity --- or you’re not supposed to ---

JK: I just noted that I said ---

LS: Oh, that you had nodded. Oh, okay. So you were saying people vote, so most people are nationalized citizens now?

JK: Yeah, they are naturalized, a lot of them.

LS: Okay. So they’re sort of --- so they’re here for the long haul.

JK: They don’t realize it. We don’t realize it, but we are. It’s becoming ---

LS: Most people are thinking that they’re not going to go home or they don’t ---

JK: Well, let me tell you this. This is what I feel about what I know about the community. They are citizens for certain advantage of it, but lately they understood that being a citizen and being a voter, you could also lobby for what you believe in. For your country or what have you. Being a member of

NAACP, you can be very influential in the African policy. Who shapes the African policy? The Black

50 John Kidane 51

Caucus. Who is the Black Caucus, who influences the Black Caucus? We are getting there. So you’ll have a mass registration of NAACP in Washington, D.C.

LS: Oh, interesting.

JK: Even the chairman of NAACP came into a rally and talked about the “invasion of Ethiopia.”

Quote, unquote. He said it. So this shows you that Eritreans are hitting the nod(?), they’re getting in the core. And they are becoming very influential. And this, knowingly or unknowingly, is going to get them into the mainstream.

LS: Now when you left, there was no Eritrea. And now there is. And now you’re an American citizen?

JK: I’m an American citizen.

LS: But are you also an Eritrean citizen?

JK: Yes, I’m a dual citizen.

LS: Okay, but that’s what my question is, then. If you could go back and get Eritrean citizenship, even though you were here when it was formed. So you could?

JK: So I could, yeah. Luckily, because we have a law, a constitution in Eritrea that accepts dual citizenship. But not in Ethiopia. And the main reason was, probably, I think, we realize it know, it’s because of the Eritreans who lived in Ethiopia. They didn’t want them to have dual citizenship. So because of that, the parliament didn’t pass dual citizenship. Even the government wanted to(?).

LS: When you’re talking about the NAACP, how do they feel, what’s their connection to the African

American community?

JK: Well, their connection is mainly that Eritrea is not well-recognized by African Americans as part of Africa, because of the African American connection, traditional connection to Ethiopia and Haile

Selassie. And they are trying to change that. So it’s a political maneuver. Okay? You gotta be part of it, you gotta get close to them, so you can influence their politics. That’s the technique. But again, unknowingly, it’s getting them close, meaning that they’re learning the culture of the African

51 John Kidane 52

American community, prominent community, and that’s going to get them close. That’s going to get them to the mainstream.

LS: So even though they’re doing it in a way for Eritrea, just through the process they’re going to become closer to African Americans.

JK: Yes.

LS: Do most Eritreans, or at least people you know, do they participate in the struggle of African

American people in terms of discrimination? Is this something that they feel, that they live?

JK: No. No, I think it’s hard for them to understand. I don’t think they feel it. I don’t think, I mean, that’s where I think they need to learn. They are hardworking people. They can’t understand why people are in a situation where people are here, because they believe that there is a lot of opportunity here, but I think they --- they may not understand the history of slavery and the feel of it. And how it impacts your generations’ life.

LS: So they tend to judge just from the surface what people are doing and not doing ---

JK: Yes, and not doing, yes.

LS: And then they compare it to their own kind of drive.

JK: Drive and strength of self-reliant --- you know how self-reliant Eritrea is. It even refused aid.

Okay? Even now, the world is seeing --- the world is being a little bit harsh on us because of what we believe in. Because we are self-reliant. And now they are saying they want to punish Eritrea and they’re saying, “Well, this is a country who wants self-reliance, and they don’t accept help and aid.”

And I think they’re punishing us. And we don’t hate(?) it. We’ll come out of it, anyway. We’ve been in worse situation before, so --- so I think they don’t understand it. That’s what I believe. There is a lack of understanding from the Eritrean community in terms of what African Americans go through. I think their children are learning now. Their children are --- our children are learning.

LS: What is your son --- where does he fit into all this? How does he view himself? What is he? If you ask him what he is, what does he say?

JK: Well, he will say --- he will tell you he’s from Africa.

52 John Kidane 53

LS: He’ll say he’s from Africa?

JK: He’ll tell you he’s from Africa. And then if you want to know more --- because a lot of people are not interested cause they feel Africa is one, you know?

LS: They speak African? [laughs]

JK: Yeah, that’s how they say. Yeah.

LS: So if you ask, he says he’s African, not African American?

JK: No, he wouldn’t call himself African American. He’ll say he’s African. He would even say even

African Americans are Africans. “I don’t know why they call African Americans!” That’s what he says.

LS: Well, see, but that’s still different than feeling that he’s separate. And who does he hang out?

JK: Well, he has Eritrean community youngsters. What we do is, we connect them.

LS: So most of the people he really spends time with are all other Eritreans.

JK: They’re Eritreans. Mostly Eritreans.

LS: Oh, that’s interesting. That’s interesting.

JK: And there are a few Ethiopians, too.

LS: Your neighborhood in South Philly, is it mostly Italian American?

JK: It’s more Italian American, yeah. And we have some Asians, too. So, you know, he hangs out with a few of them. There are some --- there is one Irish guy, he likes one Irish guy. He’s a Catholic

Irish. So he knows the family. His name is John. John, John. And his family --- I think he likes that family for some reason. They went to a Catholic school together. You know, he went to Sacred Heart until he was 8th grade, so probably that’s why.

LS: You were saying that Eritreans are really hard working and they are self-reliant. Something that

I’ve noticed with a fair number of African immigrants is that a lot of them don’t seem to live up to their earning potential. Somehow, they don’t quite --- they’re not employed as they would have been at home. And somehow it just hasn’t worked for them the way it could have when they go into

53 John Kidane 54 business or whatever. What about Eritreans? Do they tend to be pretty successful professionally? Or do they also somehow not quite find their niche?

JK: I think they’re doing very well ---

LS: They’re doing very well?

JK: Yeah, because I think they know --- they know where to be successful. I haven’t seen people who sick in one company and factory and dig on that factory and stay there forever.

END OF TAPE TWO, SIDE A

START OF TAPE TWO, SIDE B

JK: They’re successful. They own houses. Most of them own houses. 90 percent of them own houses.

LS: Here in Philadelphia?

JK: Yeah!

LS: So that’s an important thing ---

JK: That’s a sign. Oh, yeah. That’s a sign. That’s baby-boomer sign.

LS: What kind of food do you eat? Does your family eat?

JK: Well, you know, well. You see, we’re a young family, so we’re not that traditional. But we --- I crave(?) ( ) sometimes.

LS: So you don’t regularly cook ---

JK: Well, I mean, I’m not a regular, but my wife does more than me, actually. But I like --- but I eat organic, so ---

LS: And you can find everything you need?

JK: We go --- yeah, we --- no, listen --- we go and we get an animal, we kill an animal, we go to the

Amish area. We go to the Skippack area sometimes and try to get some organic-based meats. We kill a lamb or something.

54 John Kidane 55

LS: But this is an American thing that you’ve taken on?

JK: Traditional.

LS: This isn’t an ---

JK: Well, actually, yeah, but we get our own animal, because we kill our own animal back home. We get that, that’s the tradition for us. And we pray, we kill, you know, what have you. We make the traditional food for the first --- but, you know, we don’t eat that everyday. We have to be on the move, so ---

LS: Tell me a little bit about the associations that you’re a member of.

JK: Well, I assist the Eritrean Community Association. I assist the Eritrean Youth Association, Youth

Club.

LS: Is your son a member?

JK: Yes, he is. My brother is, too. I assist the Eritrean Development Foundation. It’s a relief organization that’s based in Washington, D.C. I mean, I have the chapter here. And I ---

LS: You say you “assist”? What does that mean, you “assist”?

JK: I assist, meaning ---

LS: You’re on the board or ---

JK: Well, I am the contact person, I’m the person, I’m the chapter person here. We are not organized

--- because, you see, the main chapter in Washington, D.C. has a board and this and this and that. The chapters are organized narrowly. We have few efficient people who can help.

LS: But you don’t have president, vice-president ---

JK: We have a chairperson --- I’m, I’m the lead person. We haven’t structured it in that way, that we will do when we have enough numbers. But I’m the lead person.

LS: For all those.

JK: Yeah.

LS: What kind of activities ---

JK: Now the Eritrean Community has all that.

55 John Kidane 56

LS: Yeah.

JK: They have election, they have everything, they have a treasurer, they have everything. So I’m not involved in the board, yet, because I chose not to be on the board, but assist from the outside. Because

I am ---

LS: This is the Eritrean ---

JK: Eritrean Community Association of Philadelphia. It requires a lot of time. The only thing I do is

I work on their 501c3’s or proposals or programs or --- you know.

LS: I see. What kind of activities does the community association do?

JK: Oh, umm, well. They organize parties, they organize fundraising. They have children’s programs.

As you see, the children’s association is housed there. They assist people who have problems. Like when there is death in the city, they do the --- they do all the funeral and everything. They cover everything, families don’t do that on their own.

LS: Do they help people find housing, jobs?

JK: Yes, jobs, housing. They help each other. They connect resources within their members. Okay?

LS: And there’s dues?

JK: There’s dues.

LS: What about ---

JK: And I am also a public relation person for an organization that was founded recently because there was reason for us to connect with African Americans and the Americans in general. So we founded, from Washington, D.C. and in every city, EANAP, meaning Eritrean American Network for

Peace. And I organized ( )’s presentation at the University of Pennsylvania, which you were at. So that’s part of work, the hard work that I do. Which is part of the center for peace in Eritrea. So I’ve been in all this, uh, organizations.

LS: And the community association --- does it have language or culture classes for kids?

JK: They do have, every summer. They have language classes for children. But I haven’t seen this year, because they are doing a lot of other programs. Summer programs.

56 John Kidane 57

LS: What language or languages ---

JK: Tigrinya.

LS: Just Tigrinya.

JK: Just Tigrinya. They have a plan to teach Arabic, too, but, uh, it’s hard to get ---

LS: But there are, there are Amharic speakers in Eritrea, right? No?

JK: No.

LS: There are none?

JK: None. They speak it because they lived ---

LS: But there’re Tigrinya speakers in Ethiopia?

JK: Yes. The Tigrinya speakers, the ones who are leading ---

LS: I’m not a specialist on the Horn of Africa. Excuse me.

JK: No, I know you are in West Africa.

LS: Yeah. Okay.

JK: I understand.

LS: I’m just trying ---

JK: But once you have , once you have that cultural anthropology of Africa, I don’t think it’s difficult for you to read or to understand the Eritrean culture issues and Ethiopia. It’s more complicated than

West Africa, in a way, the ethnic ---

LS: Well, the politics ---

JK: And politics, ethnic politics is very, very complicated.

LS: Let me just ask you a question about your son. Presumably, you are trying to transmit Eritrean values. Do you feel like you’ve been successful? Does he act like a typical American kid or does he have a behavior that’s different?

JK: I think he is someone who embraces both. He knows the values of his family, but he is an

American. Okay? There is times when we will nod his head watching older Eritreans doing things.

You know, he’ll be like nodding his head. But at the same time he also nods his heads when he sees

57 John Kidane 58

Americans doing things that doesn’t make sense. I want him to get the best of both societies. I don’t want him to be Eritrean totally. And that’s why I’m supporting the EANAP.

LS: Right.

JK: You know, Eritrean American.

LS: Right.

JK: Our new generation we have to take it, they are going to be different than us. But we want something from them, though. Even though they are different, we want that something from them, though.

LS: Right. That’s very ---

JK: We don’t expect them to be like us. No.

LS: What are the customs or traditions from Eritrea that you most would like to see preserved here as the generations grow up?

JK: Well, we want our community. We would like to promote our children to meet each other. You know, that helps Eritrea survive, because Eritrea is a small community and I think it’s enemies are looking for its --- you know, like the state of Israel. We have similar problems. So we would like to preserve our identity. And that’s --- and there is no racism involved in it, but I think we want to keep our culture, we want to keep our children to keep their culture. We want them to know that we came running here for our safety and their safety. It doesn’t mean that we came here to lose our culture.

LS: Abandon it.

JK: We didn’t come here forever. We didn’t come here to stay here. We came here --- you know, to run away. So we shouldn’t forget about home. We want them to be responsible when we go. We want them to keep up the flame. Help Eritrea, like, like --- I mean, we want them to understand a lot from the Jewish community. Okay?

LS: That’s interesting.

JK: And we are similar, like the Jews. I mean, we came up on our own. We’re trying to preserve our identity. Our women are as strong as anybody. They’re equally in the frontline. We have huge enemy

58 John Kidane 59 around us. We have the Muslim communities who are trying to, uhh, you know, change us.

Fundamentalist Muslim community in Sudan.

LS: Of all the American groups or sub-cultures or whatever you want to call them, would you feel the most affinity with Jewish Americans then? Is that something?

JK: I think we would in terms of --- not the religion aspect of it, but I think they understand where we come from. To make it simple. Even though Eritreans are not happy with what Israel does politically, especially in the war between Ethiopia and Eritrea --- that’s another story --- but I think we have a lot in common.

LS: That’s interesting. One of the things that’s going to come out of this project is an exhibit. What are the aspects of Eritrean society or culture that you would most like to see communicated through an exhibit? For an American public to come away with?

JK: I think the world has to know the perseverance of Eritrean society to overcome hardship. That is nowhere in the world. I mean, this is something that hasn’t been filmed properly, that hasn’t been transferred to the community at large in the world properly. This history has to come out. How

Eritreans came out of hardship, how they survived. How they survived against all odds. It hasn’t been written well, it hasn’t been convinced --- Eritreans are not good in terms of expressing their experience and history. They also ( ) pride(?) even from the president. Who doesn’t talk about himself. They asked him, “What is your history? Where do you come from? What is ---?” He says he doesn’t talk about himself. So there is a history there that people have to know. This is what I would like to convey, and I think is going to be very helpful to everybody in the world. Against all odds, they came out and they treated their enemies kindly. They treated their women equally. The women participated. They worked on cultural transformation. They knew there was a need for change. They want to change Africa, in general. In terms of not being uhh, uhh, a beggar. Don’t accept aid. And if there is loan, it has to be a fair loan. And if there is investment from outside, it gotta be fifty-fifty.

Otherwise, go home.

LS: So, they’re not going to be exploited.

59 John Kidane 60

JK: They’re not going to be exploited. And this is the culture that I would like to give to anybody else.

LS: Do you think that one reason that there is no awareness of this is that there are so many Eritreans in diaspora that they kind of know that they can make a deal?

JK: I don’t think so. I think it’s rooted somewhere ---

LS: It’s part of their character?

JK: --- it’s rooted somewhere. Umm. [pause] It is rooted somewhere in their experience, I guess.

Because they gave up from everybody. The world didn’t help. Ethiopia --- they wanted Ethiopia.

They wanted Ethiopia, during Italian colonization. They were praying for the kings of Ethiopia to come and save them. It didn’t happen. What did happen? They came in and they crashed them. Took their culture. Didn’t respect their autonomy. Killed their people. Raped their women. You know, and this is what happened. And who cared? Nobody cared. You know, Eritreans had hopes that the United

Nations would come and save them. How many times did they think about it? They thought about it during the beginning --- at the end of the Second World War. It didn’t happen. They thought about it when Ethiopia came in forcefully and took Eritrea in 1962. It didn’t happen. They thought about it two months ago, that the U.N. will come once Ethiopia invades undisputed territory. It didn’t happen.

What else can Eritreans feel? I think this is a history that they have. They chose to fight it, they chose for thirty years to fight it. A long war, and they came out of it very strong. They won on their own.

Nobody gave them independence. Ethiopia didn’t give us independence.

LS: You took it.

JK: We took it. If they didn’t have to agree with the referendum, we would have declared it. There were many nations that would have recognized us. Sometimes they misrepresent this aspect of history. So I think this is the best culture of the Eritrean culture. Women’s participation in the army.

That’s something that has to be replicated ---

LS: And it also sounds like Israel, now ( ) ---

JK: Yeah, typical, typical.

60 John Kidane 61

LS: No, I think that that’s --- I ( ) that when you said that your sister had been in, and I thought that’s interesting.

JK: Oh yeah, and she died. She gave her life. I have her picture when she was in the army. Beautiful girl. Beautiful girl. Her name was Sabah. Sheba, you know. That’s the woman that Ethiopians think she was their queen. And Yemenis claim her, too. You know, everybody claims her. But she had her baby in Asmara. Queen Sheba had a baby in Asmara. So that’s the history, the legend history. But anyway, um, I think that’s the best history --- the best culture of Eritreans. Eritreans have taken all cultures. They’ve taken Italian culture, they’ve taken Ottoman, Egyptian, Ethiopian. Some British, a little bit.

LS: Not too much though.

JK: Not too much. [LS laughs] Yeah, I took some of it, when I went to British high school. So I mean, this is the best culture. I mean, you know, I don’t know where it is rooted, but I think it’s from their experience. They came out and stayed strong, and said we should depend on our own, we should fight, we should die for it. We shouldn’t expect anybody to do it. Yeah.

LS: How do you think that --- personally, how do you that immigration has transformed you as a person?

JK: Oh, the immigration?

LS: The fact of coming to the U.S.

JK: Well, umm, I think it gave me an opportunity to understand the big America, that I knew what it’s perspectives are on the Third World, umm. I was more critical before I came.

LS: Of the U.S.?

JK: Of the U.S.’s policy. Because you remember my experience coming up(?) from the independence

--- because --- they supported Ethiopia whole-heartedly in the beginning. We are here because of them. Because of the government of the United States. In the 1950s. They created the union. They threw us in the hands of the lion, to speak --- I mean we didn’t hate it in the beginning, but our union was supposed to be based on, uhh, respect of the Federation, which had its own autonomy. They

61 John Kidane 62 annexed it. The U.S. kept quiet. And, you know, even Secretary Crocker, at that time, said that we respect Eritrea’s people --- should have been --- we should have considered Eritreans' autonomy, uhh, uhh, and rights, individual rights, and people’s rights, but however, the geopolitics of the area made it necessary for Eritrea to be part of Ethiopia. He said it. Quote, unquote.

LS: So why do you have a better understanding?

JK: So ---

LS: How has being here ( ) ---

JK: Well, I, I know that when I came here that there were societies in the country which are not part of the government. There is a society that fought and struggled against the war in Vietnam. There are societies who go against the government. There are political parties that have different political agendas. And there are other parties, there are individuals and communities and people who are progressive!

LS: You understood that it was much more diverse?

JK: It’s much more diverse!

LS: But you only saw one opinion, the official opinion, you didn’t understand ( ) ---

JK: I didn’t understand what was behind it. So that gave me an idea --- and I also knew, I learned, that by coming to this country and lobbying and teaching, connecting, that it could influence political thinking. In the government. And I have met with people in the government. In the White House.

African Affairs, uhh, person from NSA. I’ve met with people. I have ( ) to prove it. And I believe I’ve done my best., in terms of recommending what is best for Africa. Especially the Horn of Africa. And that was something that I learned by coming here, that you are powerful by coming to the U.S. You’re more powerful if you come to the U.S. and be part of the society here.

LS: Would you recommend immigration to the U.S. to other people in Eritrea? If they had the opportunity?

JK: No. No. Because I came in in a different time. I don’t accept it now. I came in in a different time.

LS: And you think they should stay there?

62 John Kidane 63

JK: They should stay home. I know it could be difficult, but they should stay home. If there was that kind of hope for me, I would have stayed. Regardless of the problem. Because the nation is still there.

LS: So when people come now, they do the green card lottery. Do they come mostly for economic ---

JK: They come for economic and educational.

LS: And educational.

JK: All of it’s economic, anyway.

LS: Are there any refugees at all coming out of --- is the U.S. accepting any refugees from there?

JK: No. Well, they are. It’s under the priorities 2000. Eritrea is accepted and Ethiopia, priority 3.

That’s for spouses, unmarried children under age 21, and parents.

LS: So its reunification?

JK: It’s a reunification ( ), but it’s difficult.

LS: Where are refugees coming from now? Where is the U.S. accepting refugees from in Africa?

JK: In Africa? Well, I’ll have to read it to you. Uhh, we have Angola, we have Burundi, we Rwanda, we have Congo --- both Congos --- we have Eritrea, Ethiopia, uhh, Guinea-Bissau, Sierra Leone ---

LS: Liberia.

JK: Somalia, Sudan, and Togo. A lot of nations.

LS: But the numbers ---

JK: The numbers are very low. 18,000 per year.

LS: It’s 18,000 per year.

JK: Yeah. But this is a good progress, because it used to be 3,000.

LS: In 1980 or something ---

JK: Yes, the ‘80s.

LS: 18,000. And how do they divide it up among all those countries?

JK: Well, that’s very technical. That’s decided by the politicians in the Department of State. But, you know --- it’s what they call allocation. Every year it’s different.

63 John Kidane 64

LS: Okay. I’m getting to the end now. I just want to ask you one thing. And thank you for talking so openly.

JK: Well, that’s okay.

LS: But I’m curious about this attempt that you made to unify African associations across national borders. How did that --- what happened with that? Was it successful at all?

JK: Uhh, it was not by the Ethiopia Association.

LS: Okay, but what about the other countries?

JK: The other countries, uhh, liked it. They wanted to continue it.

LS: And when did you do this?

JK: Well, this was about three years ago. And I still want to do it. Even Tsegaye [Ethiopian co- worker] here wanted to work on that. But there is always a problem in the communities --- uhh, the

Ethiopian community has its own agenda. It’s a political agenda. You will know once you step into their office. You will see the map. That’s a political agenda.

LS: Yeah, I’ve been in their office.

JK: I’ve got no problem with that, but, uhh ---

LS: The reason I’m asking is that I’m ---

JK: But I’m working on that.

LS: I’m doing a lot of work with community associations and every time I talk with --- the

Senegalese are forming one, which is very interesting to see, since I lived there for so long. The Sierra

Leoneans are trying to do one that’s pan-ethnic, which is very hard given the civil war and everything. But every time I’m in a situation like that I say, “You know, there’s a lot of other community associations. It may be interesting to get them --- people together to talk.”

JK: Coalition.

LS: Well, I had ---

JK: Consortium.

64 John Kidane 65

LS: Consortium. I had the idea that maybe this fall the Balch, as part of this project, would have a reception or a round-table, and invite different community associations leaders together to have people talk, and just see what happens.

JK: I think that’s a good idea.

LS: You think that would be a good idea?

JK: Yeah, well that what --- basically, that’s what I did. I used my pocket to use that, I took them ---

LS: But the Balch will pay for this.

JK: Yeah, I took them to the Sheraton, at International House. You know, for a meeting. But, uhh, you know, I, I --- you’ll sense the reservation from the Ethiopian side. You will see --- Eritreans will -

--

LS: If they’re not there, that’s their choice.

JK: At this point --- yeah, I know. But, I think --- Africa is big, anyway, so --- I think we should still work and then people will come in later.

LS: But it might be interesting to have the Balch host something like that ---

JK: I think this is great.

LS: --- because then it’s not a national --- there’s no national affiliation.

JK: Yes, yes, it’s an American ---

LS: Institute.

JK: A different institute which has --- yeah.

LS: Because I see --- the Senegalese were starting an association and ---

JK: Yeah, they’re too small.

LS: No, well, they’re not too small to help each other, but the thing is, they had no sense that they could call on the expertise of the Sudanese or the Eritreans or anyone else, trying to figure out how to do this, because they don’t know they’re there.

JK: I know.

65 John Kidane 66

LS: And so some of this is just that if people can share their experiences, that might be a way that at least people can start to talk. I would also like to do this for church leaders, because a lot of the churches are trying to do --- are interested in forming senior centers and things like that. The

Liberians have done it. And they go, “What a great idea!” but it’s --- but people are so busy and they’re so involved in their own communities, which is important, but there’s still the possibility to organize at a higher level.

JK: On a higher level, yes.

LS: And still not take away from the particularistic kind of needs they have.

JK: I mean, that’s my goal. That was my goal. I knew that unless we start coalition, number one, we won’t be able to achieve good programs in Philadelphia. They will be so fragmented. We can’t achieve good that way. I think we have --- number is important, number one.

LS: Have you ever talked to Cyprian Anyanwu of the African Congress, who is trying to do something like that?

JK: Well, I mean, I’ve helped then during their referendum. I met him in the ( ), but I haven’t done a lot of work due to the last two years problems in the war.

LS: And his things fell apart, too.

JK: It did? Okay.

LS: Well, it’s no longer --- he tried but --- well, I was just curious ---

JK: But again, if your institute can help in bringing these people together, my goal is then to create a coalition of African communities in Philadelphia.

LS: I think it would be excellent.

JK: Or we can call it in Southeastern Pennsylvania, so we can make it bigger. [LS laughs] Or Greater

Philadelphia.

LS; I think it would be great.

JK: That’s what I want to do.

[END OF TAPE]

66 John Kidane 67

67 John Kidane 68

68