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United Nations Oral History Project Harlan Cleveland 22 April 1990 pr: I NON·ClR~UJvfiJING I .l .-°,"1 '~""'. APRIL 22,1990 NON·ClR£W~JIN. ....: .'\ :'.~ . .., G I , HARLAN CLEVELAND . APRIL 22,1990 ., .- •.. ., '~"". ....HARRIMAN,: .\ :'.~ :~.. ", . "r- . NEW YORK 4 JEANHARLANKRASNO, CLEVELANDINTERVIEWER· ut 1 HARRIMAN,TABLE OF CONTENTSNEW YORK JEAN KRASNO, INTERVIEWER TABLE OF CONTENTS US Support for UN and Congo Operation 1-3, 5, 24, 25 Goals of US Policy in Congo 4-7 US Support for UN and Congo Operation 1-3, 5, 24, 25 Communication Systems with Congo 7, 11 Goals of US policy in Congo 4-7 Involvement in Internal Politics 7, 8 Communication Systems with Congo 7, 11 Secession of Katanga 7-9 Involvement in Internal Politics 7, 8 Relations between State Dept. and US Mission 10-12 Secession of Katanga 7-9 Peace-keeping Troops 12-14, 17 Relations between State Dept. and US Mission 10-12 Rescue Mission 14-16 Peace-keepingPres. Johnson AdministrationTroops 12-14, 17 Rescue Mission 14-16 Support for Congo Operation 16, 17 Pres. Johnson Administration Educational Exchange 18 Support for Congo operation 16, 17 Soviet Involvement 18-20 Educational Exchange 18 criticism by Senator Dodd 21 Soviet Involvement 18-20 CIA and Lumumba's Death 22 criticism by Senator Dodd 21 Death of Dag Hammarskjold 23 CIA and Lumumba's Death 22 Selection of U Thant as S-G 23 Death of Dag Hammarskjold 23 Selection of U Thant as S-G 23 ]1) f YUN INTERVIEW APRIL 22,1990 HARLANYUN INTERVIECLEVELANDW HARRIMAN,APRIL 22,199NEW YORK0 JEANHARLANKRASNO, CLEVELANINTERVIEWERD HARRIMAN.TABLE OF CONTENTSNEW YORK JEAN KRASNO. INTERVIEWER TABLE OF CONTENTS US Support for UN and Congo Operation 1-3, 5, 24, 25 Goals of US Policy in Congo 4-7 US Support for UN and Congo Operation 1-3, 5, 24, 25 Communication Systems with Congo 7, 11 Goals of US Policy in Congo 4-7 Involvement in Internal Politics 7, 8 communication Systems with Congo 7, 11 Secession of Katanga 7-9 Involvement in Internal Politics 7, 8 Relations between State Dept. and US Mission 10-12 Secession of Katanga 7-9 Peace-keeping Troops 12-14, 17 Relations between State Dept. and US Mission 10-12 Rescue Mission 14-16 Pres.Peace-keepingJohnson AdministrationTroops 12-14, 17 Rescue Mission 14-16 Support for Congo Operation 16, 17 Pres. Johnson Administration Educational Exchange 18 Support for Congo Operation 16, 17 Soviet Involvement 18-20 Educational Exchange 18 criticism by Senator Dodd 21 Soviet Involvement 18-20 CIA and Lumumba's Death 22 criticism by Senator Dodd 21 Death of Dag Hammarskjold 23 CIA and Lumumba's Death Selection of U Thant as S-G 2322 Death of Dag Hammarskjold 23 Selection of U Thant as S-G 23 YON INTERVIEW APRIL 22,1990 HARLANYON INTERVIECLEVELANDW BARRIMAN,APRIL 22,199NEW YORK0 JEANHARLANKRASNO, CLEVELANINTERVIEWERD HARRIMAN, NEW YORK JEAN KRASNO, INTERVIEWER JK: For the record, Mr. Cleveland, could you explain what your position was at the time of the Congo crisis? As I JK: understandFor the record,it you Mr.were Cleveland,in the state couldDepartment. you explainAbout what whenyour positiondid that wasbegin? at the time of the Congo crisis? As I Cleveland:Itunderstandbegan three it youdays wereafter in Presidentthe state KennedyDepartment.was About wheninaugurated. did that Itbegin?was January 23, as I remember, of 1961. Cleveland:ItI was beganin thethreeKennedy days afterAdministration President theKennedywhole wastime that heinaugurated.was President It wasand Januaryon after, 23, also,as I remember,with the ofJohnson 1961. Administration.I was in the KennedyMy first Administrationjob for almost the wholefive yearstime thatwas Assistanthe was PresidentSecretary and onof after,state also,for withInternational the Johnson OrganizationAdministration.Affairs. My firstAnd so,job allfor UNalmostproblems five asyearswell wasas otherAssistantinternational Secretaryorganizations of stateand forother Internationalmultilateral problemsOrganization(except Affairs.a few Andthat so,were all veryUN problemsspecialized as welllike as NATO,other internationalwhich was in organizationsthe European and Bureau)other multilateralbut most internationalproblems (exceptorganizations a few that likewere Worldvery Weather,specializedUNESCO, like andNATO,World whichHealth, was inwere themy Europeanpigeons. Bureau)At that buttime mostwe belongedinternationalto 53 differentorganizationsintergovernmental like World Weather,organizations. UNESCO, But,and Worldthe centerpieceHealth, wereof mythe pigeons.j ob was backsAt thattopping time andwe instructingbelonged to 53the differentUS Mission intergovernmentalto the United Nationsorganizations.in New But, the centerpiece of the job was backstopping and 1 instructing the US Mission to the United Nations in New 1 York. And our gladiator up there, of course, was Adlai Stevenson. At that time, both because he was so well York.known andAnd becauseour gladiatorthe UN upwas there,much ofmore course,central wasto Adlaiour stevenson.foreign policy, At thatthere time,was abothUN angle becauseto everythinghe was so wellthat happened.known and becauseSo I got theinvolved UN was inmuchwhatever more centralhappened. to ourIt wasforeignexciting. policy,It therewas awasvery a interestingUN angle to task.everythingThe State that happened.Department, Sothen I gotas now,involvedwas organized in whatevermostly happened.by regions It wasand exciting.countries, Itwhich, was aof verycourse, interestingis not the task.way Thethe worldstate Department,really works. then asIt now,works was byorganizedmultilateral mostly diplomacy,by regions mostly.and countries,Almost which,nothing ofinvolves course, onlyis nottwo thecountries. way the worldThe UNreallywas aworks.big crossroads It worksand byI had multilateralto deal with diplomacy,that from mostly.the Washington Almost endnothingand administer, involves onlyas twoit were, countries.from below The UNthe wasrather a bigcomplex crossroadsrelationships and I had betweento deal thiswith extremelythat from wellthe Washingtonknown ex-presidential end and administer,candidate as it were,who fromwas belowour Ambassadorthe rather complexto New relationshipsYork, the Secretary between ofthisState, extremelyDean wellRusk, andknownPresident ex-presidentialKennedy andcandidatehis staff whoat thewas Whiteour AmbassadorHouse. I had tothe Newfeeling York, Ithewas Secretarytrying to administerof state, thatDean Rusk,triangle andfromPresidentbelow, Kennedyfor UN affairsand his only,staff ofat course.the White JK: AsHouse.far asI hadthe theCongo feelingoperation I waswas tryingconcerned, to administerit began thatin thetriangleEisenhower from below,Administration for UN affairsin July, only,1960. of course. JKCleveland:It: As farblew asjust the aboutCongo afteroperationIndependence. was concerned, it began in JK: theSo, Eisenhowerwhen you came Administrationon board there in July,had been1960.a change in Cleveland:Itadministration. blew just aboutFrom afteryour Independence.vantage point in Washington, JK: didSo, whenyou seeyou acamechange on boardin thethereadministration's had been a changepolicy in towardadministration.the Congo From operationyour vantagewhen pointthe in Washington,Republican Administrationdid you see a leftchangeand inthe theDemocratic administration'sAdministration policy toward the Congo operation when the Republican 2 Administration ·left and the Democratic Administration 2 moved in? Cleveland:No, there was actually a lot of continuity because the movedposture in?of the Eisenhower Administration was to support Cleveland:No,the thereinitiative was actuallyof Dag a Hammarskjold,lot of continuityand itbecausewas histhe postureinitiative of thereally Eisenhowerto plunge Administrationin with both was tofeet, supportand theestablish initiativethere whatof Dagstill Hammarskjold,ranks as the andlargest it waspeace his keepinginitiativemission reallythere to hasplungeever inbeen. with Mybothpredecessor, feet, and establishFran Wilcox, thereand whatthe peoplestill ranksin the asUS theMission largestto thepeaceUN keepingin New York,missionwere therejust hasas eversupportive been. Myof predecessor,that. The controversy,Fran wilcox, theand politicalthe peoplecontroversy in the US Missioninside theto unitedthe UN statesin New aboutYork,the wereCongo, justreally as supportivedidn't develop of that.until laterThe controversy,that year, orthethe politicalfollowing controversyyear, when insidesome the ofUnitedthe statessupporters aboutof theMoise Congo,Tshombe, really didn'twho was developin charge untilof laterthe thatrich Katangayear, orarea theand followingwhom the year,Belgians, whenespecially some of the UnionsupportersMiniere, of Moisewere supporting,Tshombe, whogot wasinto in chargea tangle of withthe therich peopleKatanga inareaStanleyville and whom the underBelgians,Lumumba especiallywho were the Unionoriented Miniere,toward werethe Communists.supporting, gotThere intowere a tanglesome middle with peoplethe people-- the inPrime StanleyvilleMinister at underthe time Lumumbawas Adoula who --whowere wereorientedin Leopoldville.toward the Communists.In the United Therestates were somethere middlewere peoplesome people, -- the Primenotably MinisterSenator at Dodd,the timethe wasfather Adoulaof --whothe werepresent in SenatorLeopoldville.Dodd of Connecticut,In the Unitedwas statesa big theresupporter were ofsomeTshombe. people, Tshombenotably wantedSenatorthe Dodd,UN out theof fatherthere (itof wasthe thepresentBelgians Senatorreally) Dodd soof asConnecticut,to give Tshombe was a abigfree supporterhand in Katangaof Tshombe.which Tshombethey felt