LAWRENCE GUYOT Interview 0305 Lawrence Guyot 0306 Negro Male Jackson, Miss

MFDP Chapter 30

LAWRENCE GUYOT Interview 0305 Lawrence Guyot 0306 Negro male Jackson, Miss. FDP: Chairman of the party

A: And after Parchman for some time in Jackson, and the question of attempting to go beyond a coalition of civil rights organizations, and organize the Freedom Democratic Party. Atlantic City, the Congressional Challenge, the Freedom elections, and now, really, in depth organizing and trying to spread throughout the coast. Q: What sort of work were you doing with the FDP before you took over as Chairman? A: None. The organizational meeting was the culmination of precinct meetings, Tony caucuses and district caucusses and the state convention, at which the state executive committee and the delegation to Atlantic City were elected. So I entered into the Party in the present capacity. Q: You immediately became Chairman in July or August of that year? A: August. Q: After the convention? A: After the convention, the Congressional Challenge? Q: The Congressional Challenge. A: Before the Congressional Challenge.

Q: Could you talk about the development of the Party since it started last year, particularly the Challenge?

A: Well, the development of the Party, and the development of the Challenge coterminus. In that unless they were...lt was initially that they were both national and, shall we say, parochial enough to stimulate interest, well then we could not have developed until out of Congress. Because the issue of voter registration, while it's broad enough, while we've done everything under the cloak of the First, Fourteenth, Fifteenth Amendments possible, we can only go so far with it. People have to have some feeling of belonging to something that's theirs. Now, the Congressional Challenge was a beautiful opportunity for that, and incidentally, we're going to win the Challenge. It's going to be brought up in this session of Congress. We have the support of all the civil rights organizations. They're going to be...ln the next three weeks, we're going to be pushing to make sure it's really considered a bi- 0305-2 A (cont'd): partisan issue. We're going to be meeting with the House leadership on Thursday, both of the Repub- licans and the Democrats. And we're going to be meeting with the Speaker shortly and our concern is to bring as many people from Mississippi as possible up there and the existence of the August 17 referendum is simply we consider quite a bit of substance that will add validity to our allegations that Negroes were systematically denied the right to participate in the elections. That's the issue. The issue is not whether one of the Congressmen or a group of the Congressmen, two, three, or five, actually themselves disenfranchised a Negro or more, but whether or not Negroes, during the period leading up to the election, which they were, pardon the expression, elected in, were disenfranchised. There's absolutely no question about that now. The use of 250 attorneys, who came into the state, take depositions, which have now been printed now, by, after untimely and uncalled-for delay by the Court, are....The Civil Rights Commission Report on Mississippi, the facts and findings of subcommittees on the voting conference all point out that the Challenge does have basis. It will be decided on in this session. And I think we're going to win it. Q: What should happen if, by chance, it does fail? Where do you think the Party will go from there? A: If the thing does fail, that simply means that we come back to Mississippi. We continue to register large number of people in each county, run local, county, and state officials in all elections and immediately, if we lose the Challenge whether we lose the Challenge or not we're going—to select a candidate to run against -* Senator Eastland and have that person begin campaigning immediately. That's the election that will be done, more than likely, in the next two months. Q: Are there any people who might be selected as a candidate? A: That's up to the people to decide. Q: You wouldn't want to name any... choose any contenders? A: Well, there are quite a few front-runners. The choice is open, and we feel that if the nominating conventions in each county, then we get a broader base of participation initially, than if we simply pick someone from the top echolon of the Party. That way, we can. . .we found by practical observations, that if people are initially involved in decisions, they are much more likely to work through them to the point of culmination than to enter it at any other phase. 0305-3 Q: Which District is this in? A: This is statewide. This is a Senate election. Q: What about the impact of the McComb Statement? A: I think that any two individuals, sitting at any point in the world, have a right to make a statement. And just as long as the statement is not interpreted as Party policy, people should voice their opinions.

Q: Do you think that this has been misrepresented as Party policy?

A; I think it has been and I think that it will continue to be, and I think that if it were not for the political explosiveness of independent political organization, the barrage would not have been levied, and the concept of issue-oriented politics has simply been something very abstract. And very... it's been overused verbally. And to my knowledge, the closest thing that approaches it is the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. Q: What exactly do you mean by issue-oriented? A: I mean. ..well, that's a very good question, because the issues involved in Mississippi for the last 73 years have been exclusionary and negative. Interposition, nullification, control of every institution by the ruling order, And the issues that we're concerned with are very simple: free and open elections, open inquiry, law and order , ... Rather trite, when verbally described, but meaningful if you're going to question institutions on the basis of function, which is what we've continually done. I think the Challenge at Atlantic City couldn't be described in any other way. Now, the issues as such can be meaningful 0n1y... 1 think they're valuable can be evaluated in ratio and proportion to the receptivity of the people involved. In that the....lf elections aren't, in and of themselves, become an end, which they have become, for a lot of political coalitions in the country, not only in Mississ- ippi. Then you obviate any chance for expression and for the type of issue competition. What happens is you have... you compete on the personality level and in the last Presidential Election, we elected a professional and brilliant bigot. And we did not elect an impulsive and spontaneous, impetuous individual, who threatened to do exactly what is being done now. As long as the only alternative in American politics is personality-oriented, we have very little choice but to have no choice. Q: What do you feel about the role of the federal government with regard to the movement? 0305-^ A: I think that independent political organizing is a dangerous thing. I think it will not be allowed. I think that character assassinations and political assassinations and pragmatic assassinations of our positions and our people will definitely be resulted t0....by some respectable institutions in this country. Q: Do you think that the federal government is more of a hindrance than a help? A: I don't know. What do you think? Q; It seemed like you were saying that the future of the Freedom Democratic Party is to be killed off. You don't think that it's going to grow and perhaps become a national party? A: The Freedom Democratic Party can only exist where there are two things: a need for issue-orientation and/or projection, and inconsistencies. Q: Why the second? A: Why the second? Well, if everyone had a job, if everyone had an applicable and replete education, if everyone had equal opportunities of access to information, relaxation, medicine, and could feel creative, there would be no need for the type of party that, off the cuff, attempts to do everything. Any program that you can name, we're attempting to do it in Mississippi, under the umbrella of the Freedom Democratic Party. Q: Are there any plans to organize a similar type of party or tandem party throughout the South? Do you think other areas would be receptive to this? A: I think that there are inconsistencies and there are issues which need to be projected in other areas of the South.

Q: It's very interesting. I'm thinking of the old Pop- ulist idea of the Southern alliance. Do you see a possibility of this, a Southern alliance? A: Definitely not. The Freedom Democratic Party will never...as long as the national Democratic Party remains the amorphous monolith that it is, there's no need for a third party. We're the Democratic Party in Mississippi. It's up to those 50 individuals that sit on the Dem- ocratic National Committee to rule otherwise. To rule otherwise means that they're throwing away votes.

Q: Do you see a chance that the MFDP might eventually 0305-5 Q (cont'd): be recognized as the Democratic Party of Mississippi by the national Democratic Party?

A: In Minnesota, the former Labor Party, and that doesn't sound like the Democratic Party, does it, is recognized as the formal Democratic Party. In quite a few states you have 11 orl2, but in some instances2o coalitions, all operating as the state Democratic machine. Under the umbrella of the Democratic Party, I think that's possible in Mississippi. And we will definitely attempt to inter- ject issues into Mississippi politics and maintain an immediate identification with the national Democratic Party. Q: There's also a chance that the Mississippi Democratic Party will become the Republican Party.... A: Well, what do you mean?! It's already Republican in practice!

Q: Yes, in name. A: I mean

Q: Why did this concept of the Freedom Democratic Party arise, as averse to the idea in Georgia, of working through the regular Democratic Party?

A: You've twice mentioned the third party there's no third party, at least to my knowledge. — Q: I should say the...Why was it chosen to create a new party, instead of working through the old structure? A: Because we felt that the Democratic Party should be reactivated in Mississippi.

Q: Is there any date of the beginning of the approach that's now being used instead of the other approach?

A: We campaigned throughout the state for Lyndon Johnson and Hubert Humphrey with qualifications. We conducted the only state-wide campaign. We've gone 185 arrests and we protested to the National Democratic Committee the rascist type campaign that was being conducted by the electors that remained loyal to the party in Atlantic City, the three of them. And our concern is to enter into the political arena, organize the Democratic Party in Mississ- ippi, open it to people that it's never been opened to before, and, at the same time, use participation as a form and a mold of education. Q: Has the NAACP ever given its support to the MFDP? 0305-6 A: The NAACP, in quite a few instances, has not only refused to support the Freedom Democratic Party, but we have proof that at the last convention, a resolution was passed which was worded supporting the Mississippi Free- dom Democratic Party, endorsing its political activity, including the Congressional Challenge. However, after it reached the...after it left the Resolutions Committee, it was simply endorsing the unseating of the Congressmen. And, it did not endorse the policies and activities of the Freedom Democratic Party. The...at times, the leadership, the archaic leadership of the NAACP, have found it convenient to consider the Freedom Democratic Party as an intemperate, instant, and a third party, none of which are true. Q: Do you feel that there is a real difference of issues between the NAA and the MFDP, or is it more a rivalry?

A: Not a difference in issues! The same issues exist... Q: A difference? A: Oh, I think there is a difference in analysis and techniques and the political perspective of the NAACP, which, to my knowledge, is non-political. Didn't you know that?

Q: Do you feel that the two groups can and should, or do they work in harmony?

A: Well, I think that there are quite a few strange and unique political coalitions in Mississippi. Q: How about Aaron Henry? He was the Chairman, or the first Chairman of the MFDP. A: That is incorrect. Q: He was chairman of COFO. A: He was chairman of COFO, that is correct. Like all pol itical. ..like all state political parties, the Freedom Democratic Party elected a chairman of the delegation to Atlantic City. Every political party does this. Q: What is his attitude to the MFDP? A: You'd have to contact him. He's a member of the State Executive Committee. Q: The MFDP, as you have said, tries to do just about everything, while the NAA takes the attitude that it should try to do just one thing at a time. What is the justif- 0305-7 Q (cont'd): ication for trying to do everything? A: Everything is a bit vague. There are quite a few things that no one else has done, that need to be done. Our premise is that you give people information and techniques to do with themselves what they will. I don't think any other political coalition in civil rights, or civil liberties group, spends as much time and energy in political education as the Freedom Democratic Party. Q: (?)

A: The summer volunteers play a very interesting part, in that, I think you can only learn about America in Miss- issippi. Because. ...You learn the similarities. Everyone comes to Mississippi looking for the dissimilarities or the differences. And the only difference is that the political oppression and control in Mississippi is much more con- spicuous, much more overt. You can see it, but it's just as clinical, just as effective throughout the rest of Amer- ica.

Q: Would you say that the movement in Mississippi con- tributes more to them than they to the movement? A: I think there's a reciprocal, beneficial agreement, arrangement there. Q: How helpful are students to the movement?

A: A lot wouldn't be done without them. A 10t....1 think they're very beneficial in a lot of areas, and I think that the need and the argument for a summer project after last summer's is to point out that, more than likely there won't be one next summer. Q: What is the reason for that? A: Mississippi is not only changing, but the people involved in the movement of...by their very scope and analysis of what's going on, are going to have to revamp their approach to certain problems. And that's going to mean bringing in technicians, people with skills instead of simply a lot of people who very definitely have a right to come, but have very definitely served and, I think, served very well to us, but the issues are becoming rather clear. The need for self-determination is becoming more pronounced, exaggerated. And I think there's going to be a few changes in the approaches to projection of details and issues. Q: What purpose have they satisfied in the past? A: Well, they brought America to Mississippi. You couldn't 0305-8 A (cont'd): bring Mississippi to America, because it wouldn't look at it. The only thing wrong with the % 6k summer project was that three people were killed. Every- thing else was right and positive. Q: What do you see as the difference between last summer and this summer? A: There is of course a great difference. Last summer, you didn't really have the politicalness, the political thrust involved in the movement. You had a lot of non- political ideology, and a lot 0f...we11, very creative abstract thinking that couldn't be implemented. But, at the same time, this was a small number of people that were involved last summer. But, at the same time, you had some very courageous, very. ..people who were driven an initiative and creativity that made what's happening this summer possible. I think that without the summer project, the political thrust and the possibility of moving in Mississ- ippi would have been 8 or 10 years forthcoming.

Q: You say that there will or may not be a summer project next year. Are you speaking for the MFDP or are you speaking for all the organizations?

A: No one speaks for SNCC. Q: What is the relationship between the MFDP and SNCC? A: I understand that SNCC is concerned about political change, fundamental economic change. They work veryq closely with the Freedom Democratic Party. I think they will continue to work rather closely with us, as CORE. And at the recent convention of CORE, James Farmer pointed out the need for, and to quote him issue-oriented independent political organizing by indigenous" groups." He named specifically the kind of group that the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. On yesterday, in the Resolutions Committee of the convention held by the Southern Christ- ian Leadership Conference, a resolution endorsing the policies and patterns and practices of the Freedom Demo- cratic Party, the Congressional Challenge, and the trip to Washington, was passed unaminously. Copies of that will be sent to members of the House and to the Press. So, we are...The American Civil Liberties Union is presently supporting the Congressional Challenge in its entirety. The Americans for Democratic Action are now supporting the Congressional Challenge. The NAACP, through no volition of its....well, the NAACP, by resolution, is supporting the unseating of the five Congressmen from Mississippi. The...l think that the thrust wi11... 0n tomorrow will be a lobbying force of 135 attorneys throughout the country are going in to explain to the House members the constit- 0305-9 A (cont'd): utionality and the legal ramifications and precedents of the Congressional Challenge now pendeing before the House, filed by the Freedom Democratic Party. I think it's going to beat...it's going to come up this session and we're going to win it. The only way... Q: When this session? Do you have any idea? A: When? No. Q: You said that the activities of the student volunteers last summer made possible, or, rather, unnecissary the summer project this year. A: No, possible. I don't know how to react to the term necessary, but... Q: What I mean is, how valuable do you think that the summer project is this year?

A: Well, it simply meant having people to do two things. Number one, build the Party in Mississippi on the question of function, not on the question of organization. And number two, to really get a chance to look at America. I think that while civilizations can be judged by how they treat their criminals, a country can be judged by finding the lowest economic ebb, and the lowest intellectual and cultural ebb. And Mississippi's that. Q: Do you think that the role of white people in the movement is going to decrease, as far as the MFDP? A: That presupposes the fact that only black people are oppressed.

Q: Well, that leads to another question, which is whether the MFDP is a poor man's party, or a Negro party? A: The Freedom Democratic Party is as nationalistic as the national Democratic Party... or as the Americans for Democratic Action, or as SCLC. Q: The FDP claims to be a poor man's party, but it seems to be a Negro party more than a poor man's party. Do you think this is true at present? or is it developing in the other direction? A: When you say 'poor man' and 'Negro', you presuppose some differences. If a person, a poor person, anywhere in the country goes before a judge, and he can't afford to have an attorney, and it's usually very easy to get convicted. The same's true of Negroes, so I can't conceptually separate poor people, black or white. I don't think that the party, 0305-10

as such is predominantly Negro, as the press constantly points out, through any volition of the members of the party, but from the political peculiarities and inconsistancies of Mississippi, which paradoxically make it possible for the party to exist but also curtail the membership, shall we say, the participation of quite a few people who do not have any reasonable alternative. The television program last night was the most disgrace- ful and benign insult to a state that I've ever seen. It presupposed the concluded remarks of both Negroesand white citizens of this state, that it extended from that original premise to become reduced to the point of absurdity. Q: Could you comment on the charges that were made there in the second half that the Freedom Democratic Party is supporting the Constitutional amendment in order to have any freedom. A: I don't think that's the way they would comment. Q: ...(?). ..address the state.. .(?).. . A: Definitely, I think that there were three issues which were falliciously and intentionally or through the volition of the groups, presented, and that was, number one, that the passage of the August 17th referendum has absolutely nothing to do with federal registrara, number two, that if in fact the laws are goin to simply be declared unconstitutional and changed temporarily and then had the right of the House to revamp them, then that's certainly not any political change. Number three if in fact the hysteria and the emotionalism is going to be utilized to either perpetuate or instigate some attack of the federal government in the form of the registrars or other agencies, I think that's not only inconsistant but it's foolish. Number four, there is the question of attempting to deal with the constitutionality of the law. Until that's done, there's absolutely no question about the validity of it. I think that the entire approach was one of emotionalism, one of "Let's save face," and what in fact ...(?) the argument of the unconstitutionality of the laws as applied is in fact true, well then so is the congressional challenge. Well, a Senator, while he can't actually vote in the House of Representatives, can very definitely talk to the constituents of the Congressman or to the Congressman presonally. We will very definitely need votes. There's no question about the constitutionality or the legal validity of the challenge. And now it's a question or actually bringing it to the floor and having that august body decide whether or not they are going to determine the integrity of their members and whether or not they're going to condone Mississippi.

Q: Do you have any estimate now of how the vote's going to go?

A: It's going to be very close. I think it's going to be 0305-11 a very close vote. Q: Is there anything that...There are going to be four or five of us that are going to be up there at the end of this month and the first two weeks of September, is there anything that we can do, if we have a group, like record statements for you to take back.

A: What you might do is contact Michael Fellwell and Dan Goodman at 926 Perm. S.E. Wash. D.C. The telephone number is s^6*-4450. There's going to be a need for money, there's going to be a need for political support. There's going to be a need for dissemination of exactly what's going on, what we're doing, what we're not doing. I think the McComb state ment pointed that out. There are alot of other McComb State ments and conditions similar to that. And unless there's some quorum (?) to point out exactly what our position and what our policy on certain issues is, we're going to be lost in the mud. Q: On conditions similar to the McComb statement, what rela tion does that ( ? ) have to ...(?)...? A: None Q: Is it... (?)... or would it just be persons. ..(?)... ? A: I'm not certain about that. Q: It seems to me, the McComb statement is a manifestation of the amount of individuality that exists within the movement. Do you think as a whole this much individuality is beneficial or (?) to the Movement? A: There's nothing wrong with individuality per se, on any level. It's just when that individuality is extrapolated to become considered very similar, or in fact, the policy of a larger group of individuals or a larger group of people. political views Q: What individuals/does the FDP care too much, take into account—the FDP is considering people for its positions... A: Yeh, we're concerned for an individual who's either a volunteer or a member or an affiliate or an attorney of the party does what the party sees fit. Q: Isn't that limit some his political ideas, sir? A: Entirely Q: When you say "the party" could you give us some idea of how the party reaches a position on some particular point. 0305-12

A: The county; Executive Committees which present and bring to the state Executive Committee, which is made of three people from each Congressional District, positions to be determined, policies which are then determined, sent out and fol lowed through. And it does not come, conventionally what — happens is it's determined by the fifteen and sent down, instead of people coming up, and having the broader base answerable to that policy.

Q: Well say, ...(?)... this Negro mother is interested in taking a position on Vietnam. She does not want her sons to serve because she feels that she can (?) her rights and free- doms, this is an What would she do if she wanted to work through FDP channels to try to make her feelings known. A: What she would do is simply write to the county chairman in her county. If there isn't one, she would write a letter to the state executive committee pointing out her position and asking that the Freedom Democratic Party take a position on that immediately. Q: And it's a matter of time and volunteers and staff that ...(?)... the Freedom Democratic Party, do many people know that this can be done? Are there any other channels by which people are getting informed about the existence of the party? A: Very definitely. We're having more and more state meetings which in fact publically determine policy. The concept of the county meetings is that there can be three public notices in public buildings and that there's to be a publication (?) in the newspaper pointing out the time and the date of the meeting in addition to welcoming all Democrats. Concern is another way to involve the whole community, to make it impossible for a few backroom, coffee house politicians to make deals which are banged into the organization. If policy is determined publicly it can be very clearly understood. It's then the responsibility of the total membership to carry it out.

Q: Now I've been working some (?) back in Louisiana this summer. They have initiated something which is essentially a conference of community people and attempt to get all types of individuals, (?) bring them together (?) just talking about local problems and so on and in this way attempt to create some feeling of community throughout the entire state, ...(?).. .communities some support. Does that compete with

A: That's been happening here for the last three years. See what's going on in Louisiana now was goin on in Mississip- pi. I mean, we by no means have a monopoly on radicalism, 0305-13

I'm not trying to say that. But alot of the techniques that were used here are now being used in Louisiana, alot of the people who worked here are now working in Louisiana and in Southwest Georgia. Mississippi is such a beautiful laboratory that alot of the people involved in the Movement in its entirely have at one time or another definitely effected and definitely been effected by Mississippi.

Q: You mentioned radicalism. Do you consider the party itself ...(?)... A: The party's as radical as apple pie.

Q: How about the Negroes in general in Mississippi, does he £end to be conservative say economically? A: There is no general Negro. Q: Would you say there is a conflict between the volunteers who come down with very, very radical ideas and the Negroes here who don't tend to gravitate to these radical ideas.

A; We've got some very radical Northern Negroes. You see, that's not necessarily a race thing. What it can really be looked at as is a difference of orientation, a difference of reaction to and acquisition of formal education, a difference of a frame of reference. And then you find quite different conclusions reached when two individuals look at the same thing. It's not :just a question of the black and white thing, it's a question of the skilled vs. the unskilled but in the conventional sense andy the question of the person who lives in Westchester county coming to Neflora county. Q: Well speaking about the Movement, do you yourself see a difference between the Civil Rights Movement and its concern with the problems mainly in the South and a larger movement that's not only concerned with the same problems in the North but all kinds of things, like Vietnam?

A: You can't have Civil Rights until you can have civil liberties. The most effectively imprisoned people are those who falsely believe they are free.

Q: This is to say that you support the idea of just the Move- ment with a capital M? A: I support the idea of free and open inquiry on all political, economic, sociological, ethical and eccesiastical issues. Q: Do you feel that this, well I've heard. ...(?).. some editorials stating that people in the North who are "very much in sympathy with you and contribute financially to the Move- ment would disagree with the position most people down here take now. 0305-14

A* What is the position most of the people down here. Q: It appears to be...well to generalize it, it seems to be against the President's policy. A: What do.:you think? Would you qualify your source of information? Q: Well, just in my experience... A: Your own experience, and, and that's the opinion of most of the people? A: And that's the opinion of most of the people? Q: I would say yes, most of the Movement people. Perhaps then I should ask this: do you think most of the people of Mississippi are for or against the President's Vietnam policy? A: I think that after you just stated to me that you're aware of the opinion of most of the people down here, that anything I had to say on the issue would be superfluous. Q: That's the feeling of the people I've come in contact with. A: Oh, I see. Q: ...as opposed to the people of Mississippi. A: The people you've come in contact here as opposed to the people of Mississippi? Well, you know, just like there's "One man, one vote," there's also the right of "One man, one opinion." I don't know of any movement to get people in Mis- sissippi, Negro and white, and/or white to disobey or in- fringe or circumvent federal statute, with the exception of the interposition (?) bit which is working in the hearts and minds of alot of people. But it's hard to do. Southerners are very concerned about law and order, the church, the land and the concept...W.J. Cash has done an excellent job in t The Mind of the South. I think it was too excellent. So it's impossible to work outside the institutions, you've got to work within them. You've got the question not on the basis of revamping their guidelines, you've got to question on the basis of simple functionality. Q: Working within the institutions you are in a sense attempting a moral, you're asking for a moral revolution, is this not true? In a very real sense you're asking for a change in the American ethic (?) A realization. ..(?).. .a consciousness #

A: That argument is quite applicable and that if "X" amount 0305-15

of power exists, "X" amount of political power exists, well then, it should be distributed on the basis of need; and opportunity. And if that's to be done, well, you can't ethically circumvent and confine the opportunity of a group or of an individual. Q: What is the relation of that revolution to the organizations you work for?

A: Well, most of the people who work for NLU are involved in FDP; and quite a few people involved in the FDP are involved in the NFLU. And I think that NFLU is the most creative and beneficial thing that has come to Mississippi in a long time. The job is much less abstract than we hoped; and the question of organizing and preparing... those people did one beautiful thing: that was take the initiative away from the planters as to when the planters would no longer find them financially beneficial. They're preparing really to fend for themselves, in an environment which makes that in many instances pragmatically impossible. Q: Do you think it's enough to say that one is economic and the other is political? A: No. It is not only too much of an overlap, as far as interest and programs, and an overlap in the membership, but there's also the move to bring together people operating in different levels and different environments in Mississ- ippi. And I think the labor union, because of the dls- functionality of the labor unions as such, in this state, Q: How far down does the structure go? If there are statements to be made, for example, these come from the chairman. " " A: That's not true; at the state convention, which had some between 800 and 1000 people there, which was really the culmination of precinct elections, county conventions, regional district conventions, and then all these meetings sent delegates to the state convention, the state delegation, the delegates to Atlantic City, were elected. The presidential elector and the national committeeman and commltteewoman were elected. Now they are still in office. k Now the breakdown of the party turns on the precinct; we still conduct precinct meetings. And after the precinct, there comes the convention. First of all the county meeting, then the county convention. Then there's the congressional district meeting. The Second Congressional District meeting will be held at ______on the 29 of this month. And we expect a couple of thousand people there, from the Second Congres- sional District. And after that, there's the state convention. And while it's true to say that there are 0305-15

15 members of the state executive committee, any member of the iparty can sit in on the executive committee meeting, and has a vote, just like he would in his county. Q: Then he votes just like an executive committee member? A: That's right. Q: Is this opportunity used? A: It was used last Sunday. There was a meeting 0f250 people from across the state, and this policy was definitely determined.

Q: What was the authority of this meeting? A: I'm not certain. Q: How often do you go down and talk to the president? A: It's quite often, I would think; It's determined by the need of the programming.

Q: Giving a little more^stress on the National Committeeman, etc., would you say they are elected lame? A: No; they're elected for four years. Q: And the national commit teemembers , they're representatives to the Student Democratic Party? A: Right. Q: What is happening to them? There were two chosen from the state Democratic Party and two from the Mississippi Freedom Party. Which are now serving on the national committee? A: I don't know. I know that the representatives from the Freedom Democratic Party are not on the national committee. I don't know if there are any committee representatives from Mississippi.

Q: Who are the national committee members? A: Mrs. Victoria Gray and Reverend Ed King. Q: The committee chairmen and such, they're elected from anyone in the party? I mean, you didn't have to be a member of the executive committee?

A: No. 0305-17

Q: And people in the precincts or counties, they come together in the districts? Q: What is a beat? Is that smaller than a district? A: No. It's not the same thing; you might have...a beat and a supervisor's district are the same thing, but you might have 15 or 20 precincts in a supervisor's district. Q: It's dependent upon the population? A: (evidently silent nod) Q: What is the function of the state committee member, if anyone can do it? I mean, the function of the executive committee? A: What is the function of it? To determine policy. Q: But anybody in the party can do it. A: That's right.

Q: So is there any greater purpose of the executive committee?

A: Well, yeah, to call executive committee meetings, and to see that the results of the meetings are not determined at meetings as^such, but are brought to the meetings, shared, and then dispersed.

Q: Most policies are made at these executive meetings, then? A: That's right. It would be inopportune to wait a year to decide on policy that might be necessary to determine instantaneously or very quickly. And the fact that there are three people from each congreasional district really gives a graphic representation and a source of inquiry to every person, every inhabitant of each congressional district as to who they're to put the finger on about What they want brought up. Q: Where does your money come from? From SNCC? A: We certainly have not been given any grants; Q: Does SNCC contribute directly to you, or do you do your fundraising independently of them? A: We have done Independent fundraising, and we continue to. Q: But do you receive monpy from SNCC? A: We receive money from anyone who's willing to give it.

■-\ 0305-18

If the Klan wishes to make a contribution, we accept that. Q: What in terms of connection with your organization would you say existed between it and the Deacons? Do you accept funds from them, for example? A: You'll have to check with the Deacons. Q: Do you go along with them about violence? A: Well, I'm non-violent. Q: Would you consider it as a tactic, a strategy, a philosophy?

A: Yes; it's all three of them. Q: Do you believe in self-defense? A: I usually determine that under the conditions, I mean, under the prevailing conditions. Q: You're not non-violent under any condition? A: Oh yes, definitely. But one might under certain conditions have to determine exactly how non-violent one was going to be. Q: Do you feel the movement in Mississippi will be able to follow Dr. Martin Luther King, or do you feel it will become more violent before it becomes less? A: The movement has never been violent; the movement, uh, to take that position would be to say that demonstrations cause violence. That's not true. Q: What about individuals within the movement? A: Individuals within' the movement are not violent; I think what has happened, is that as a result of the activities and practices and patterns of the movement, certain people have reacted violently. But that's not to say that demonstrations cause violence. The movement is not violent now; nor will it become violent, because the movement as such knows if it becomes violent in Mississippi, it will be destroyed. The country won't allow it. Q: Do you think something like the Deacons constitutes the movement fs becoming violent? A: You'll have to check with the Deacons on that. 0305-19

Q: Are there Deacons in Mississippi now?

A: You'll have to check with the Deacons on both of those questions; they'll know, I'm sure. Q: Could you compare the violence of the wfaites, you know, the retaliatory violence, last summer and this summer? It's been my experience, at least in the few places I've been so far in Mississippi, that it's changed a lot. Do you think this has any connection with a white attitude of resignation? A: Well, there's been a revamping of the expression of that attitude. Instead of shooting niggers now, they fire them. And the plan. ..the Mississippi plan of 1965 will be very similar to the Mississippi plan of 1890 that's to make it economically impossible for them to—exist here, and to move them out. Q: Who controls this plan? The governor? the Klan? the white citizens' council?

A: And others. Q: What others? A: The Mississippi Economic Council, the uninformed and therefore uninvolved person in Mississippi, black and white, who refuses to look beyond their city or county boundaries and look at Mississippi in its entirety. You see, the difference between registration and voting is so complete, that I would predict the same amount of atrocities and patterns of coercion and intimidation that we previously experienced in registration, to occur when we are composed in large and meaningful numbers to vote. So again, the voting bill without the Congressional challenge is meaningless, because you have to restore law and order in Mississippi before you can really begin to think about the kind of political maneuverability that's going to be necessary to deal with the problems, not only of this state, but of the country. Q: How directly will the challenge concern voter registration? A: I think that the beginning of any change has to be something that politically resembles "redemption. Q: Do you think this requires more law, or more voter partic ipation? A: Well, the concept of law and order is very appealing to people in the South, and the definition of it needs to be revamped, because as you go out in the South, you find 0305-20 a lot of order, and very little law. And what has to be done is to take that concept, and point out the inconsistencies and the disfunctionality of it. Q: Isn't this idea of law and order just a rationalization for the conservative reaction? A: You're absolutely right. It's a convenient way to explain legally what would have taken shotguns to do otherwise. You don't shoot everyone who comes to register to vote; you just give them 285 sections of the Constitution to interpret. Q: Isn't this what Cash calls the "white complex" the fanatical desire to protect white womanhood against— the ravages of the black race. This kind of thing? A: Well, that theory goes beyond caste; it goes back to the reason for the South African battling against the waves, and building the dikes, and then the concept of the black wave... it's older than Cash. Q: Will you touch on the role of sex in the civil rights movement ? A: I think sex has a role in all movements. Q: Do you think it's greater in this movement (laughing) than in any other movement?

A: I'm not prepared, not equipped, to conduct that type of analysis.

Q: Do you feel it's overrated as far as its role goes? A: Well, it does get a lot of publicity. I don't have any statistical analysis of that. Q: What I was getting at was, that, well, it seems that the Southern white again and again comes back to this sexuality of the Negro, and the intermixing of the races, you know, the basic worry that anybody can understand, as a rationalization for discrimination against the Negro and so on. For instance, the book, Sex and the Selma March —this kind of thing, which keeps coming up again and again. Have you noticed this kind of thing? A: I think the obsession is an extension of the epitome of sexual guilt. In McCome, we have a lot of people, with skin my color, who in fact are results of miscegenation. There you find a deep-rooted sense of guilt, which I think really has intensified the racial turmoil, and it's very hard to deal with, very hard to talk about and there are some overlapping instances of control.. — 0305-21

Q: On the subject of religion, it seems as though religion is the backbone of the movement, in talking to a lot of the younger people in the movement. A: The movement. .well, you've been talking to some very interesting people." The church did its job in the movement, but only as an institution.

Q: You don't see that religious attitudes developed into the movement?

A: I didn't see the attitudes developing into anything. We're faced with new ways of looking at these institutions and new frames of expression developing from the movement. Right now, this country's faced with a population explosion, with an' intellectual explosion. ..logical advances that we never thought possible two years ago. But having to deal with a medium and advanced problems with archaic tools.. .that's the church. Q: You mean they might hold the movement back? A: I don't think anything can hold the movement back; I think religion is as much a part of the movement as a march is. Q: Is it a valid analysis that reverends often do not participate in the movement's functions, and that the participation in any given area is a direct function of the participation of the ministers in that area? For instance, there was a district down here very involved, because the ministers were involved, and another very apathetic, because the ministers weren't involved. Is this the situation in Mississippi? A: No. I know personally of a lot of ministers who spend years rationalizing their inactivity, but who can be persuaded to get in the movement, and once they get in the movement, can also find themselves. It's a risk for a minister; not only the threat of physical intimidation and what have you, he's also economically quite invulnerable, because he has a built-in constituency, both because of financial support and emotional and psychological support* but the threat of his leadership is always brought about by the movement, unless it's clearly explained that it's not an attempt to tate over, but an attempt to utilize and fund that constituency of his with the approaches. ..so there's no blanket statement that can be made about ministers, or about priests, or about anything, as it relates to the movement. Q: I was wondering about the principal school teachers and so forth in the movement; i do they feel the same sort of pressure? A: Again, we can't be collective in that. I know some very active and some very inactive and some middle of the 0305-22 road teachers; there's no collective generalization that would be true. Q: How would you describe the progress of the movement in the last two years? A: Number one, there was an ecumenical encyclical; the first was on the l?th century. That's part of the movement; after all, they're dealing with problems now they never had to deal with before. The concept of ecumenicalism will now really be considered the institutions will be forced to consider it since—the institutions are faced with the problems of —overpopulation, atomic annihilation, an intellectual explosion, an inability to really deal with the economic needs of a lot of people who will want to go to college in the next ten years... and a blandness of American suburbia. . .and America in its entirety in a lot of instances.

Q: How do you judge the overall progress? A: Well, I consider that progress; second, the political orientation and the political thrust. And I personally have found it necessary, in order to remain alive, to revamp my concept of both work and of the movement in that my internal patronage is seeing other people grow. I know personally, in four years ago, the old source of information that I had were the Mississippi newspapers, and the Mississippi radio and television shows. I remember very vividly something about six years ago the right to work law was passed. After reading the papers— and talking to people, I would have, if I had been a voter, have voted for it. But now I understand that that was as much a vote on the right to wurk as this one is on the right to vote. Which it isn't at all. So it's really a question of the growth of people, the creativity of people, and an extension of their frame of reference from where it is regardless of where it is, to future frames. Q: Would you say the movement is moving at the correct speed or not? A: The movement is becoming much more practical; to me, than it has ever been before, at least —in that the speed is determined by two factors: how fast you want to move, and how fast you move. Q: How fast do you want to move? A: Just fast enough. Q: To do what? A: To bring about the necessary political advances. Q: So "Freedom Now" isn't really a statement of possibility? 0305-23

A: I think it's a valid statement of belief. It's a statement of principle: "Freedom now;" "Justice, liberty now; equality now." Q: But you don't expect to get it right now.

A: Well, why not? Isn't this the greatest country in the world? Q: Well, I guess that's a poor question; but practically speaking, you don't expect your demands to be met now. A: What demands are you talking about? Then I can answer the question better.

Q: Well, I'd like an answer to my question first. A fellow once told me, that in the eyes of the older people in the movement, you could see the cruelty of the movement: in the sense that you tell them, "Freedom now, and they tell you they sure hope they live to see it. But" you know that they won't. In other words, it's a matter of an expectation which you still don't really expect to happen. It's just a feeling that this is the just thing eventually. A: I see what you mean. I'm sorry; I just want to repeat one thing, that to my knowledge, the movement has become more practical, and that the, while it's true that people react and are motivated by things that are shall we say, beneficial to them, that's no reason to extend that argument to, say, to say that people should not act and/or react collectively for the benefit of other people. Q: Do you consider the present struggle to be one for civil rights and equality, or one for integration? A: I think...that varies with the person you're talking to and the conditions under which you talk to them. Don't you? Q: Well, in these conditions, in this district, do you have an opinion?

A: My opinion is that various people battle for different reasons. I battle for 3.11 of them. I'm willing to fight with anyone, so long I understand their reason for battle, and the lines of battle. Q: Which are your favorite reasons? A: Political inconsistencies. Q: What? A: See, while I'm aware of the fact that racism permeates American policy to every fiber, I'm still concerned with 0305-24 attempting to cut through the racist tendencies and the attitudes of Negroes and whites. Again, another advantage for issue-oriented politics, because if you bring in unions w to Mississippi, it's just as beneficial to poor whites as it is to Negroes. And if you really can stop the noncollection of ad valorem tax of the rich cats, it's been going on for ten years, then you're really helping them have that money collected and distributed for the well-being of the community.

Q: Are you for integration rather than separate but equal facilities? A: Well brother, if segregation weren't economically feasible, it wouldn't exist in this country. I mean, C. Van Woodward does an excellent job; I'm not quoting his authorities as Bibles, but in my analysis, he did a very good job of this. Q: But then, you're going beyond purely economic; you're talking in the range of psychological help as well, in the area of reinforcement. A: Well yeah, but you see, there's a lot of economic data which can be broken down into what is necessary and why, I mean, the need to make sure that unions didn't get organized, and that labor didn't really enter into collective bargaining, was much more economically advan- tageous than living together in a free community. Q: Well, but do you also interpret it as turning out that the economically depressed white "rednecks" might see some reason for associating themselves with the also economically depressed Negroes? Do you think this could happen? A: Yes. Q: Well, you seem to have come around to the point where you're looking at the movement in economic terms as...well, is it mainly in terms now as working for economic improvement? A: Well, working for economic improvement, cultural improvement, religious improvement ...there are a lot of people in Mississippi with different interests, and we want to work with every one of them. Intellectual improvement, roads, streets, more fish in the pond... Q: Could you clear up something that wasn't clear at the orientation in Hattiesburg, about the lawyers that are working with the movement? Do you see them in terms of people that are working with the movement or in the movement? 0306(0305 cont.)-25

A: Well, the movement as such is not equipped to... we don't have an assassination squad. So we don't have any choice of... we ask them not to work in the program, but if they want to associate as individuals, we can't stop them. Because then we get caught up in the very trap that we're attempting to disrobe now. Q: How was the decision made to bring volunteers into this area? A: The state executive committee made that decision. Q: What other issues did you discuss at that meeting? A: I don't remember. Q: Was this part of the solution to the black-white issue, was this program a method of finding whites to help reconcile the two? Or was the job of orientation, done by the SNCC staff, to be the most important? A: You'd have to name the SNCC staffers, and you'd have to pull them together and talk to them. Q: When did you say you joined the movement? A: i960. Q: What brought you to that decision? A: Well, originally I wanted to teach school; then I wanted to become a doctor. Then when I learned how ineffectual and useless both those positions were in Mississippi, then the only thing left for me to do was to find out more about Mississippi and more about myself. Q: You were raised in Mississippi?

A: That's right. Q: Where? A: On the Gulf Coast. Q: I notice that there's a vast difference, from these interviews, between the student worker and the Negro leader of the same age their involvement, etc. What would you say is the typical— type of each? A: Well, first of all, the typical type has radically changed. The movement, in a lot of instances, Mississippi started this program. And the student activists, well, in a lot of instances, they're composed of the sons and daughters of doctors, lawyers, either middle-class or upper 0305-26 class Negroes; and it's the...l don't think it's trite to point out, that by Mississippi standards, this is an intellectual oasis. And so there is no consistent role of the typical student. Because that's being changed; the complexion of the student body is being changed, and the movement is becoming more accommodating to a lot of its previous enemies. Q: What is the attitude being changed to? More pro, more con... A: Well, I don't know how to answer that question. Q: I understand from conversations with other workers, that their attitudes are even now changing. A: There again, they're against...civil rights. Q: I'm talking about student involvement in what seems to me to be the movement in general. Of course, I'm just talking about one conversation, and I was wondering if you thought this was a general trend. A: Id be interested to know who that conversation was with. I think that political organizing is going to be, if not the answer, at least the beginning of the movement that's going to be necessary in Mississippi. Q: You said that most of the workers in Mississippi tend to come from the middle class; well, that's a generalization, and I was wondering what you'd think of another: I've had the impression that most of the Negroes in Mississippi are from the Negro middle class, as opposed to poor Negroes.

A: Well, despite the fact that that's a general question, I can't agree; it's absolutely wrong. I know the financial background of a lot of people involved, and I wish that were true, but it's not. Q: What are the general characteristics of workers? A: Well, I think that can be answered by the statistics throughout the country: they're getting younger, they're getting, they're facing a lot of problems earlier than their elders did five years ago, and their interests are quite different. Q: Is the movement becoming predominantly made up of these people? A: I suppose so. Q: As I understand it, there was some general decision made 0305-27

between last year and this year, to the effect that SNCC would not be in Mississippi after this, to the extent that in Louisiana, SCLC in Alabama, and other such groups were involved. Is this true? A: We are very touchy about talking about people nego- tiating and what have you. We like people to react to what we do. If anyone wants to work in Mississippi, they're more than welcome. Q: To what extent does your organization care about or depend on northern support? A: If it were the stand of the party, if it had been discussed with the membership, if in fact the information were available by which to make a conclusion, and if the repercussions, both favorable and negative, were presented, and that position were taken, we would not only take that position, we would disseminate it publicly. See, what' we've been built on is so different, and what we thrive on, has been so different from the political orientation. Q: Political orientation of what? A: Well; of everyone. Conventional political parties have to produce results; I mean, they have to give out the patronage, the jobs, have to run people for office, and they have to win some of those elections. Our patronage is participation and information. Q: Isn't participation a functionof success, to a large extent? A: Well, that's a question for the economic determinist to determine. Q: If, given time and this kind of success, the party became really well established, do you think it would turn into just another political party? A: Well, I think the initial radicalism of the former Labor Party in Minnesota and its later, and its now almost annihilation as a political forum, points out that with success comes moderation. Q: How open is your party? A: We open our precinct meetings to anyone; we open the county meetings to everyone. Q: Has this ever caused trouble? A: Not to my knowledge. We opened the state executive committee to everyone who lives in Mississippi. They don't care. Our entire staff and membership is concerned with the 0305-28 daily dissemination of information and programs. There's no other political coalition in this country that's prepared to do that. Because the best way to control people is to keep them uninformed; or to keep them half- informed. Q: This has to be characteristic of you, doesn't it, because of your faith in your membership? A: That's true, but not only because of our faith in the people, but a willingness to be wrong if the wrong decision is made, and to live up to it. Q: That's interesting; last night in the discussions on the TV program, it seemed as if they were speaking of a democracy of the elite, like the college graduates; whereas the FDP operates more under a Jeffersonian system. A: But "deeper than that, see, there's almost a brutal clash when we consider the reaction of a lot of people of the Freedom Democracic Party to the people involved, and that they were talking abuut last night as though they were Mocks of wood, or statistics; and that the attempt to completely obviate the Negro from the discussion, and deal rather with his peculiarities rather than him as an individual, and the poor white also. not Q: Should they be telling people, "let's/let the poor whites or the Negroes vote?" A: Yeah, I think the issue is almost clear now; it's not what they want, it's what they have to deal with. And the question on August 17 is whether or not the law is unconstitutional. I think that half of all that last night could have been spent saying that.

Q: Whether the law is unconstitutional? A: That's right, and if enough people really vote on the issue, rather than on the emotional histrionics about saving face, and a last ditch effort... Q: Well, whether the old law or the new one is less constitutional, I mean, they're both...

A: Well, the Attorney General is a political institution. And political institutions have a way of feeling that the first order of the day, is self-perpetuation. I'm concerned about people being registered; that they be registered on the white paper ballots, or if they get registered on a Federal box, I want people registered in large numbers. And... 0305-29 (0306-9) Q: Is white supremacy a problem to you? How about govt, aid? A: It's a problem in the country; and I think the trend by the administration would be just as pitiful and just as benign and just as atrocious as Paula Johnson's position, in that if you're really going to talk about stabilizing the family, and that's going to mean in some instances a very subtle but very strong argument at birth control, and at the ADC-type supervision on sex, and reciprocance of that money, and if that's what the plan is, well then I'm certainly against that...but as far as for stabiliz... the term sounds nice, stabilizing the family. But if that's simply to compartmentize a lot of boxes, then, uhm, the Adam Smith's Modest Proposal might seem like a very good literary beginning.

Q: What was the situation in Atlantic City when the FDP refused to accept the compromise? A: There was no compromise; there were only pure political realities. Q: Perhaps this year... the congressman from Mississippi has been talking about.. .arrangements. A: If the four of you participate in the crime, the four of you are just as guilty as any other member. We're not trying Whitten; we're not trying Abernathy, or John Bell; we're simply trying the political system out of which they evolved. It's before the House of Congress as to whether or not Negroes were systematically intimidated, denied the right to vote, and coerced. That's the question. If it's determined positive, which I think it will be, they'll be unseated. If they can in some way disprove our allegations, and other political factors have to be brought to bear, then they'll be seated. Q: Let me ask you about that. This move seems to be raising more opposition to the movement than a lot of other things. How do you feel about this? A: Well, by Mississippi standards, Coleman was a mild segregationist; but dangerous, in that he is a brilliant man. And this was by no means to take the position that we don't want brilliant people in the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. But that the final decision of how you judge a person is not by what he says, but by the pattern and practices of his activities and interrelationships with.. .uh. . .foreign thoughts, with ideas and thoughts that he disagreed with. He was the author and co-author of quite a few very efficient bills, while in office; the importance of federal district courts, and of the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, to what we're going to be doing, and the direction that we're going to be moving in, is again really such that 0305-30

it didn't leave us much of a choice but to really push for the best type of selection.

Q: I talked with Professor Silverman last year, and his opinion at that time was that Coleman should not be appointed because if were running for governor next time, Coleman was the only man in the state that could beat him.

A: I think that Silverman wrote letters in favor of the appointment of Coleman—is that correct? Q: I believe so.

A: And that might be because there's been a change in the political climate, and maybe the best way t0...y0u see, a lot of us thought that Barnefct would be champion for the...

Q: Is he pretty much in the background now, or is he going to stage a political comeback in the state?

A: He's not.. he speaks everywhere he can get a chance to, Rotary club, Civic clubs... l don't think he's prepared to die out. He might give a great burst of interposition and nullification and stagnation very soon.

Q: What's the position of whites who like him? Have they changed very much? A: I don't know. (series of mumbled questions and indistinguishable short answers )

A: Do you have a tape of the broadcast last night? I'd like very much to hear that.

Q: Okay; we've got many tapes you might be interested in. We're trying to make a series now, both of workers and of student participation in civil rights. We expect to sell this series to radio stations in the Bay Area and any other student stations who might be interested. A: Is this part of what Alan Lowenstein's doing? Is he involved in the grant? Q: The grant was...well, there are actually two grants; one from the Capitol (?) foundation and one from the Stern Family Foundation. They're given to the student radio station, KZSU, and distributed from there. So there are no administrative influences. Do you have any suggestions as to how we could carry out this assignment 0305-31 any better? Any means we should use? How should we get our information? And would you be interested in using it? A: Well, quite frankly, I know... l've never had access to this type of facilities before. I'd have to think about it , and check with other people in the state. And I'm certain that we could come up with some use of the facilities.

Q: It's possible that we won't make a profit on the series; we're already a thousand dollars in debt. But we do need the profit. ...(on and on, almost unintelligible, about the technical processes of using the tape recorders)

* * *