Wednesday Volume 530 29 June 2011 No. 179

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 29 June 2011

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many commentators, including the First Minister, are House of Commons unsure of exactly what powers the Welsh Government would like to have. Wednesday 29 June 2011 As with the Calman process, it is right that we try to reach consensus on this and move forward. It is far too The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock important a matter to be rushed or dealt with in a cavalier fashion. PRAYERS Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Very important though borrowing powers are, would the [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] right hon. Lady assure the House that the remit of the Calman-style commission will be far broader than matters financial, given the excellent work already carried out Oral Answers to Questions by the Holtham commission?

Mrs Gillan: I am committed to establishing a process WALES for the Assembly that is similar to that set out by the Calman commission. I have made it clear that we intend The Secretary of State was asked— to review the financing arrangements for Welsh devolution. I must repeat, however, that I think that this matter is Devolution far too important to Wales, and far too important a subject matter, to be rushed or not to be discussed fully. 1. Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): What recent I am seeing the First Minister on Monday to take discussions she has had with the First Minister on the forward our discussions and I do not want to pre-empt remit of a commission on devolution and funding for them by setting any parameters. Wales. [61862] Mr Llwyd: No doubt the right hon. Lady would not The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): wish to pre-empt any decision, but in a co-operative The Government are committed to a Calman-like process spirit, may I suggest that matters administrative and for Wales and will be putting forward proposals. I have constitutional should be considered? I am thinking of discussed the issue with the First Minister, and will be the possibility of devolving police and justice powers to continuing to have discussions with relevant colleagues Wales, for which there is a huge amount of support and of course the First Minister. throughout Wales. On the vital issue of broadcasting, it is high time that Wales had control of its own broadcasting; Paul Murphy: The Secretary of State will know that S4C would not be in its current position if there were the Northern Ireland Executive can borrow money and such control. the Scottish Government will soon be able to borrow money, but the Welsh Government cannot. With the Mrs Gillan: The right hon. Gentleman is trying to lay cutback in capital spending on schools and hospitals, is out his own manifesto, and his party’s position with it not now time for the right hon. Lady to enter into clarity, but that is not how we want to take matters immediate negotiations with the Welsh Government forward. May I make it clear that I know how important and the First Minister so that the Welsh Government S4C is to the Welsh language and culture? We have can also borrow money? reached an arrangement on it, and I assure him that I will always look to the interests of S4C because I know Mrs Gillan: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that how important a part it is of Wales’s culture. question. He is effectively asking why Wales is the only home nation without borrowing powers. It is fair to say Electricity Projects that the new borrowing powers for Scottish Ministers, which are set out in the Scotland Bill, will not take 2. Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): What effect until 2015-16, which is in line with our commitment recent discussions she has had with the First Minister not to change the system until stabilisation of public on the devolution of planning decisions for electricity finances. May I make it clear that we are not ruling projects with a generating capacity greater than 50 borrowing powers for the Welsh Government in or out megawatts. [61863] at this stage. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): The recent (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend has regular Labour Government have already amply demonstrated discussions with the First Minister about issues that their enthusiasm for taxing and borrowing. Does my affect Wales, including energy. right hon. Friend think that it would be wise to allow the Welsh Assembly to follow that example? My right hon. Friend has received no formal requests from the First Minister on the specific issue of devolving Mrs Gillan: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that planning decisions for electricity projects with a generating question. [HON.MEMBERS: “No, you’re not”] Despite capacity greater than 50 megawatts. the laughter from the Opposition, I am grateful to him. However, I cannot be drawn on this, and as I answered Mr Williams: I thank the Minister for that response. straightforwardly, we are not ruling it in or out at this Perhaps this matter could be included in Monday’s stage. I want to have those discussions with the First discussions. Will he acknowledge the concern that has Minister and other colleagues for the simple reason that been expressed by the First Minister, people from all 939 Oral Answers29 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 940 parties and especially campaigners in mid-Wales against their constituency would be an ideal location for an large-scale wind turbine developments? They feel it enterprise zone. Indeed, I have already met some Members would be completely in line with the devolution settlement who have made such representations. to transfer this power, so that decisions about large I encourage my hon. Friend to make contact with the energy projects are made in Wales by Welsh Ministers. Minister for Business, Enterprise and Technology in the Welsh Assembly. We were all surprised and disappointed Mr Jones: There is considerable concern in north and that she is not yet able to agree to appear before the mid-Wales about large-scale energy developments, but I Welsh Affairs Committee. I encourage her to rethink must tell my hon. Friend that there are no plans to that decision and to work together with the Welsh devolve such competence to the Welsh Assembly Office in a spirit of co-operation, because that would be Government. The big problem in mid-Wales is not that in the interests of Welsh business. competence for energy consents resides in Westminster, but that the Assembly Government’s planning policy—in Several hon. Members rose— the form of technical advice note 8—has a strong presumption in favour of wind farm development in Mr Speaker: Order. I am rather surprised and certain areas. That is the difficulty and it lies with the disappointed by the slow progress today. We must speed Welsh Assembly Government to amend. up.

Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): For successful energy Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Given the Secretary of projects to go ahead in Wales so that it can reach its State’s discussions about enterprise zones with the First potential, we need proper infrastructure. The First Minister Minister and other Welsh Assembly Ministers, does she and local government want the same deal for ports accept that whatever we do on the ground in Wales, and development as England has—a level playing field. This whatever stimulus the Welsh Assembly can provide, we is a reserved matter: will the Minister and Secretary of still need a proper fiscal stimulus from her colleagues in State stand up for Wales? the Cabinet here? What discussions has she had with her colleagues in the Treasury about ensuring that growth Mr Jones: As the hon. Gentleman knows full well, happens? Barnett consequentials were given to the Welsh Assembly Government and they have decided not to implement Mrs Gillan: The hon. Lady makes a very good point, them on port developments in Wales. I suggest that he and that is exactly why, following the Budget, there was has a strong word with the First Minister and pleads an increased provision for the Welsh Assembly Government with him to divert money to that cause. of £65 million. Just to correct any figures that have been bandied about, I have checked with the Treasury and Enterprise Zones £10 million of that £65 million was Barnett consequentials for enterprise zone expenditure, and £20 million was for 3. Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): What recent small business rate relief consequentials. I am sure that discussions she has had with the First Minister on the with £30 million the Welsh Assembly Government will establishment of enterprise zones in Wales; and if she be able to do something. will make a statement. [61864] Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Since The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): the sad demise of the Development Board for Rural I had initial discussions with the First Minister on the Wales, there has been virtually no support for manufacturing day of the Budget, following the announcement of the in mid-Wales. Will the Secretary of State declare that introduction of enterprise zones in England. I have also rural Wales will not be ruled out in the consideration of written making clear my commitment to work with the enterprise zones? Welsh Government to establish enterprise zones in Wales. I am therefore delighted that the First Minister has now Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend asks me to step outside confirmed that Wales will benefit from enterprise zones. my brief, because I do not have responsibility for the Having zones in Wales will provide a much needed enterprise zones in Wales. But I am sure that the Minister boost to businesses and make Wales more attractive to for Business, Enterprise and Technology in Wales will investors. hear what he has said, and I encourage him to engage with her to discuss the possibilities for rural Wales. Guto Bebb: I thank the Secretary of State for her answer, which is most welcome. Conwy county Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): A potential problem corporate plan and the Wales spatial plan have with enterprise zones, as the Chairman of the Treasury identified Llandudno junction in my constituency as an Committee has pointed out, is that jobs are transferred area that is ready for growth. In my view, an enterprise in, rather than new jobs being created. What steps can zone at Llandudno junction would move from a potential be taken to avoid that unwelcome outcome? for growth to real growth and create real employment in my constituency. What we need to see is co-operation Mrs Gillan: The hon. Gentleman knows that I have between Westminster and the Assembly to ensure that been concerned about the position of Wales and enterprise that happens. zones from the minute that they were announced for England not least because we have announced that Mrs Gillan: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, who there will be enterprise zones at Bristol and Merseyside. is a great champion for Aberconwy and has mentioned I am concerned that the enterprise zones on the English this matter to me before. I would welcome meetings side of the border will affect inward investment into with any Welsh Members of Parliament who think that Wales, which is why I encouraged the Welsh Government 941 Oral Answers29 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 942 to engage with us so that we can establish mechanisms of Commons Library suggest that the average reduction that do not allow those two enterprise zones, which are will be £14 per week for 125,000 DLA claimants in so close to Wales, to suck business out of Wales. Wales, which amounts to a total of £90 million a year or more than £700 each. Has he any idea how much Welfare Reform Bill suffering that will cost when we also take into account sky-high VAT, food and petrol prices? The truth is that 4. Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): What under this Government, rich bankers are coining it assessment she has made of the potential effects on while the most vulnerable and needy are punished. It is Wales of implementation of the provisions of the the same old nasty Tories. When will he and the Secretary Welfare Reform Bill. [61866] of State stand up for the people in Wales?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Mr Jones: May I remind the right hon. Gentleman (Mr David Jones): The Bill legislates for the biggest that the reforms that we have in hand are caused in large change to the welfare system for more than 60 years. measure by the fact that his Government completely Through our radical reform of the welfare system we destroyed the economy of this country and ensured that are creating a new universal credit which will simplify it did not pay to work? Our reforms will ensure that the system, make work pay and combat worklessness those in receipt of DLA will be properly taken care of, and poverty in Wales and throughout Britain. but we will also make certain that those who can work will work, and that work will pay. Paul Flynn: Last week, the Royal National Institute Great Western Main Line for the Blind condemned the Government’s welfare cuts as unfair. This week, bankers have new bonuses. When 5. Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): What are the Government going to stop blaming the previous recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of Labour Government, or the next one, for all their State for Transport on the electrification of the Great problems and start taking responsibility for their own Western main line to Swansea; and if she will make a decisions that reward fat cat bankers and cheat those on statement. [61868] low pay, the vulnerable and the disabled? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Mr Jones: The Government’s welfare reforms are (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend continues to aimed at ensuring that the welfare system will continue have discussions with our right hon. Friend the Secretary to support those in greatest need. That is particularly of State for Transport about this matter. The announcement important in areas of high unemployment, such as of electrification made on 1 March is excellent news for those in parts of Wales. This Government are ensuring all parts of south and south-west Wales, as I am sure that never again can it be said that being out of work that the hon. Gentleman will agree. pays and being in work does not pay. That is what we seek to achieve. Geraint Davies: The Minister will know how disappointed businesses and people in west Wales and Swansea are Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): The Welfare about the lack of electrification to Swansea. Will he and Reform Bill devolves the discretionary social fund to the Secretary of State ensure in their discussions with local authorities in England. What discussions has the the Secretary of State for Transport that there is every Minister had with colleagues in the Department for prospect that costs may be reduced by European funding— Work and Pensions and the Welsh Assembly to ensure either convergence, or transnational transport funding—and that after this devolution the residents of Wales will still that benefits may be increased by greater frequency on have access to the support and financial assistance that the back of Premier League status for Swansea City? they need? Will he make every effort to get electrification to Swansea?

Mr Jones: The hon. Lady raises an important question. Mr Jones: I commend the efforts that the hon. Gentleman We are committed to full consultation with the Welsh is making on behalf of his constituents. Of course, as he Government on the devolved implications of these reforms. knows, and as the Secretary of State made clear when she addressed the Swansea Business Club, the issue of Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): The Government told electrification to Swansea is not closed. It is a matter for Parliament that the cost of disability living allowance local government, this Government and, indeed, the will be cut by a fifth—or 20%. Will the Minister tell the EU to consider what options can be pursued to ensure, House what loss of income that might mean for the if possible, the electrification of the line to Swansea. average DLA claimant in Wales and how many will be affected? Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab): We have heard a great deal about the electrification to Swansea, Mr Jones: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the but have we thought about freight? More tonnage is programme is aimed at helping people get into work, carried between Llanelli and Cardiff than between Bristol including those who are in receipt of DLA. It is essential and Swindon, so freight is really important along that that the interests of those in receipt of DLA are properly line. I am very concerned that all the calculations have protected, which is what this Government are committed been based on passenger figures. to doing. Mr Jones: Yes, indeed. The hon. Lady makes an Mr Hain: The truth is that the Minister has not got a important point, and the availability of the line for clue about how to answer that question, so let me help freight traffic should be taken into account in making him out. Calculations backed by figures from the House the business case for electrification. 943 Oral Answers29 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 944

Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): Talking of trains, review, there were cuts of some 2% in the Barnettised the Minister will be aware that the Secretary of State money going to the Welsh Assembly Government. I has offered to resign over high-speed rail going through urge him to talk to his friends in the Welsh Government, her constituency. The people of Wales are grateful for because many public sector jobs depend on the Welsh the offer, but we wonder whether the Minister might ask Government and the operations in Cardiff bay. her when the precise date will be to trigger it. As we are a generous people, we would very much like to give her Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South a good send-off— Pembrokeshire) (Con): The Secretary of State will be aware that Dyfed-Powys police have announced this Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman’s question week that they have recruited 39 new police officers for must relate to the subject matter on the Order Paper, the front line. Will she join me in commending the chief not to a question that we have not reached—though we constable for getting his priorities right and not spreading might—so I am sure that he will want to refer to the scare stories for political benefit? electrification of Great Western main line to Swansea and the Secretary of State’s stance on that matter. Mrs Gillan: I thank my hon. Friend for reminding us Owen Smith: Will the Minister ask the Secretary of that there are not always cuts in public sector jobs. In State whether she would be happy to resign over the some instances, there is recruitment to public sector failure to deliver the electrification of the railway to jobs. I congratulate his chief constable. I regularly meet Swansea and the valleys, as she is happy to resign over the four chief constables in Wales, and they are all very matters in her constituency? positive about their forces and their operations protecting the public in Wales. Mr Jones: Given that the hon. Gentleman is so geographically challenged, it is perhaps no surprise Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) that, during the 13 years of the last Labour Government, (PC): Does the Secretary of State share my concern not one centimetre of electrified line was created in about the report leaked last week indicating that seven Wales. out of eight HMRC offices in Wales are to be closed, leaving only one in Cardiff, with a loss of more than Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Unlike my 1,000 jobs? colleagues from Wales, my constituents in Bristol will benefit from the electrification of the Great Western Mrs Gillan: The hon. Gentleman should know that I main line. However, there will still be real problems of met HMRC earlier this week to discuss the reports in undercapacity on the line. May I urge the Minister the press. I am pleased to say that there are no new when he talks to the Department for Transport and announcements of HMRC office closures or moves in when they negotiate the new franchise to consider those Wales at this time. HMRC has assured me that any issues, too? office closures will not lead to job reductions beyond those already required by the spending review and that Mr Jones: Yes, but I would mention to the hon. Lady there are no plans to reduce the number of HMRC that, in fact, as a consequence of electrification, the offices in Wales. journey times from London to her constituency will be reduced by 22 minutes. I hope that she welcomes that. Welfare Reform Bill Public Sector Job Losses

6. Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): What recent 7. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): What assessment estimate she has made of the number of public sector she has made of the potential effects on Wales of job losses in Wales during the comprehensive spending implementation of the provisions of the Welfare review period. [61869] Reform Bill. [61870]

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales A forecast of public sector job losses was published last (Mr David Jones): I refer the right hon. Lady to my year by the Office for Budgetary Responsibility. That earlier answer to the hon. Member for Newport West forecast was based on UK-wide macro-economic data (Paul Flynn). and no regional breakdown is available. I remain committed to working with ministerial colleagues to minimise the impact that essential reductions in public expenditure Ann Clwyd: In the Cynon Valley, as in so many south have on Welsh workers and their families. Wales valleys constituencies, there is a high percentage of disabled people. My constituents want to know why Mr David: The Government talk a lot about private the Government are intent on depicting them as scroungers sector growth, but does the Secretary of State not and second-class citizens. realise that, in Wales, the private sector is dependent on the public sector: massive cuts in one have a bad impact Mr Jones: That is not a description that I recognise. It on the other? is certainly the case that in many south Wales valleys, endemic worklessness is a problem. The Government’s Mrs Gillan: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the settlement reforms aim to ensure that those who can work are for Wales was more generous than for many other parts helped into work and those who are unable to work get of the United Kingdom. Over the comprehensive spending the support that they need. 945 Oral Answers29 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 946

Stamp Duty Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Private sector job creation is the only way to grow the Welsh economy 10. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): What discussions sustainably. Does my right hon. Friend recognise that she has had on the potential devolution of powers to enterprise zones have a key role to play in that respect, and does she agree that Barry would make a great set rates of stamp duty in Wales. [61873] location for Wales’s first enterprise zone? The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Mrs Gillan: The hon. Gentleman certainly punches I note the First Minister’s statement last week on his above his height. The Vale of Glamorgan could have no Government’s priorities for financial reform and greater champion. I refer him to the Minister for Business, accountability, but I have had no representations from Enterprise and Technology in the Welsh Assembly, who the Welsh Government on the proposals as yet. I am sure will be able to help him and make his dreams come true. Ian Lucas: Has the Secretary of State had any discussions High Speed 2 with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who raised the issue before the Welsh Assembly elections? Has she 12. Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): What discussed it with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or do assessment she has made of the potential effects of people in this Government not talk to each other? High Speed 2 on the economy of Wales. [61875] The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Mrs Gillan: I am not sure where the hon. Gentleman The Government are currently consulting on a new gets the impression that people in our Government do national high-speed rail network. That is part of a not talk to each other. We talk to each other all the time. wider programme of modernisation of the rail network, I have many meetings with the Chief Secretary to the including electrification of the Great Western main line Treasury and the Chancellor, and I am able to discuss to Cardiff. matters that affect Wales on each and every occasion. Susan Elan Jones: I have heard of trains cancelled Welsh Economy because of snow on the line and leaves on the line, but never before because of the Secretary of State on the line. The high-speed rail link, HS2, would bring great 11. Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): What benefits to Wales, but our Buckinghamshire-based Secretary assessment she has made of the performance of the of State opposes it. If our Secretary of State will not Welsh economy since May 2010; and if she will make a stand up for Wales, why does she not resign? statement. [61874] Mrs Gillan: I thank the hon. Lady for her close The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): interest in my career. The Government are having an First, I welcome the hon. Lady’s interest in Wales and open consultation on HS2, and now that she has expressed its economy. The economy is starting to return to growth, such a great interest in the subject, we will expect her and I am pleased that we are beginning to see signs of representations. improvement in employment levels in Wales. We have had to make difficult decisions in order to reduce the massive deficit that we inherited. Our policies are the PRIME MINISTER right ones to restore business confidence and move people into the jobs that they need. The Prime Minister was asked—

Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many private Engagements conversations taking place in the Chamber, including one that I have just concluded. Q1. [62625] Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 29 June. Rosie Cooper: I apologise, Mr Speaker; I could not The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning, hear. With 5.5 people chasing every job vacancy in I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. Wales, does the Secretary of State consider job creation In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have to be a priority? What, if anything, have she and her further such meetings later today. Government done about it? Karen Lumley: What does my right hon. Friend say to Mrs Gillan: I am afraid that I did not catch the whole the teachers at Vaynor First school, who are putting the of the hon. Lady’s question. However, the Government education of children and welfare of the parents first by recognise that the private sector will lead economic not striking tomorrow? recovery in the UK. I am proud of our record of The Prime Minister: I congratulate them on doing the supporting businesses, and I am proud of what is happening right thing and keeping their school open. I do not in Wales, where the latest unemployment statistics reveal believe that there is any case for industrial action tomorrow, more people in work and fewer on the unemployment not least because talks are still ongoing. Only a minority register. of unions have taken the decision to go ahead and strike. I want to see as many mums and dads as possible Mr Speaker: Clearly, if the Secretary of State cannot able to take their children to school tomorrow. What we hear questions, the noise is too loud, and it is impeding are proposing is fair. It is fair to taxpayers and also fair the process. Let us give a fair hearing to Mr Alun to the public sector because we want to continue strong Cairns. public sector pensions. 947 Oral Answers29 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 948

Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): There are Edward Miliband: Let me just ask the question again, currently 163 statutory organisations in the national because the right hon. Gentleman did not answer it. health service. Can the Prime Minister tell us how many People are very concerned that he is creating a whole there will be after his top-down reorganisation? new set of quangos. Will he tell us the answer to this simple question? Can he guarantee that none of the The Prime Minister: What I can tell the right hon. people being made redundant will be re-hired to do Gentleman is that the health reforms, which now have their old jobs at his new quangos? It is a simple question: the support of former health Minister Lord Darzi, will yesorno? see a reduction in bureaucracy because we are getting rid of strategic health authorities and primary care The Prime Minister: I know that the right hon. trusts. Gentleman has this extraordinary vision of how the NHS is run, but it is not the Prime Minister who hires Edward Miliband: Let me give the Prime Minister the every person in every organisation in the NHS. The answer to the question. The number will go up from difference between this coalition Government and the 163 to 521: pathfinder consortia, health and wellbeing Labour party is that we are investing in the NHS, boards, shadow commissioning groups, authorised putting resources into the NHS, reforming the NHS in commissioning groups, a national commissioning board, a way that is supported by the Royal College of Surgeons, PCT clusters, SHA clusters, clinical networks and clinical the Royal College of Physicians, Tony Blair, Lord Darzi senates. Is that what he meant by a bonfire of the and most people working in the NHS, but not by the quangos? Labour party. [Interruption.] Mr Speaker: Order. The decibel level is—[Interruption.] The Prime Minister: If the right hon. Gentleman Order. The decibel level is far too high. The Prime looks at the figures for savings, he will see that we are Minister should not have to shout to make himself saving £5 billion through the reduction of bureaucracy. heard. That is what is happening. We inherited a situation whereby the number of managers was going up four times as fast as the number of nurses. Since we took Edward Miliband: The whole country will have heard over, the number of doctors has gone up and the that the Prime Minister has admitted the Government number of bureaucrats has gone down. are spending £852 million on making people redundant, and he cannot even promise that they will not be re-hired to do their old jobs. Is not this the truth? He Edward Miliband: I will tell the Prime Minister about promised no top-down reorganisation; he is doing it. our record on the NHS: more doctors and nurses than He promised a bonfire of the quangos; he is creating ever, and the shortest waiting lists and highest patient more. He promised a better deal for patients and things satisfaction ever. The right hon. Gentleman says that he are getting worse. What people are asking up and down will save money, but he has refused to publish the this country is: what is he doing to our NHS? figures accompanying the new amendments to the Health and Social Care Bill for how much he will spend. The Prime Minister: What the whole country will Perhaps he can tell me—the figures are available—how have noticed is that at a time when people are worried much he will spend on making NHS staff redundant. about strikes, the right hon. Gentleman cannot ask about strikes because he is in the pocket of the unions. The Prime Minister: Let me give the right hon. Gentleman What the whole country will have noticed is that at a the figures on the costs and the benefits of reducing the time when Greece is facing huge problems over its bureaucracy.Changes will have a one-off cost of £1.4 billion deficit, he cannot talk about Greece because his plan is over the next two years, but more than £5 billion will be to make Britain like Greece. What the whole country saved in total during this Parliament. Over 10 years, will have noticed is that at a time when the economy is there will be net savings of £12.3 billion. Add to that the the key issue, he cannot talk about the economy because fact that we are putting £11.5 billion extra into the of his ludicrous plan for tax cuts. That is what we see, NHS; he fought the last election pledging to cut it. week after week. He has to talk about the micro because he cannot talk about the macro. Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister did not answer the specific question that I asked, which was how much Mr Speaker: We are very grateful. I call Guto Bebb. he was spending on making NHS staff redundant. The [Interruption.] Order. I appeal to the House to calm answer is £852 million. Will he guarantee to the House down and reflect on what the public think of this sort of that none of those staff will be re-hired to do their old behaviour. jobs at his new quangos? Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): Will the Prime Minister The Prime Minister: What we are doing is agree that Aneurin Bevan would be turning in his grave implementing—[Interruption.] Yes. We are implementing as he sees a Conservative Secretary of State increase the £20 billion cost savings that were set out by the spending on the health service in England while a Labour party when it was in government. But the Labour Government in Cardiff cut spending on the difference is that we are going on with putting more NHS? money into the NHS—money that the Labour party does not support—so that there will be more nurses, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has an extremely more doctors, more operations in our health service, good point. I hope it is in order to talk about Labour’s and a better NHS compared with cuts from the Labour record in Wales, because if anybody wants to know party. what would happen to the NHS under Labour, they can 949 Oral Answers29 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 950 look at Wales, where it is slashing the NHS budget and The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely actually seeing more people waiting for longer. That is good point, and I have discussed this with him. As he what happens when you get a Labour party running the knows, the application process for national insurance NHS. numbers for adults does include an identity check and the precondition that the individual is entitled to work. Q2. [62626] Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The Leader None the less, as my hon. Friend’s case demonstrates, of the Opposition’s feed-in tariff helped to create national insurance numbers should not be issued to 300 more jobs at Sharp in Wrexham earlier this year, those with no entitlement to work, but that is happening. but today, because of this Government’s reversal of We are looking very closely at the idea of marking policy, the Renewable Energy Association says that national insurance numbers in the way that he suggests. solar generation and the jobs and growth linked to it are in turmoil. Who knows better—the Prime Minister Q5. [62630] Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): At or British business? a time when the NHS is under financial pressure and people in Wirral are being hit by steep rises in prices, The Prime Minister: Anyone looking at what this please will the Prime Minister tell me whether he agrees Government are doing in terms of renewable energy with his friends on the Government Benches, who can see a massive investment in renewable energy—the think that costly tax breaks for those who can choose £3 billion going into the green investment bank; the private health care should be a priority? massive incentives given under the renewable heat initiative. The Prime Minister: The short answer to that is no, I We had to stop the abuse of solar power, where clearly don’t agree. the regime was not set in the right way, but anyone looking at that industry can see a huge boost from this Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): The Government. Prime Minister will be aware that core inflation for small businesses is at its highest level for three years. Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): Despite Will the Prime Minister recognise that problem, but the gravity of the financial situation against which the especially tell us what more he can do to increase Bank of England is preparing contingency plans, have demand, which remains at best very sluggish? the Government also got a team working on the details of a new treaty, in case, as seems probable, the European The Prime Minister: I can tell my hon. Friend what Union has to be considerably changed? we have done to help the economy. Obviously, this year a key problem for small business is the cost of fuel. We The Prime Minister: May I first of all say to the have cut fuel duty, abolished the escalator and put off Father of the House, on behalf, I believe, of the whole the retail prices index increase to next year, making a House, what great pleasure it gives me to refer to him as difference of around 6p per gallon. That makes a difference. my right hon. Friend after his many years of service in We also, with the banks, have the Merlin agreement for the House? What I would say to him is that we have, extra lending to small business, we have also cut corporation quite rightly, used the opportunity of the new treaty tax for small business and we have helped on business change being put forward to protect Britain’s interest rates for small business. This is a very small business-friendly and get us out of the bail-out mechanism for the future. Government. Of course, if new proposals come along, we could use that opportunity again, but I think right now the priority Q6. [62631] Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Four must be to work for stability in the eurozone, not least years ago, the Prime Minister said that the extremist because 40% of our exports go to eurozone countries. organisation Hizb ut-Tahrir should be banned Britain is playing a constructive role in making sure that immediately. He has promised to do just that on that happens. countless occasions—in the House, elsewhere and even in his election manifesto. Why has he not done what he Q3. [62628] Emily Thornberry (Islington South and promised to do so many times? Will he go back to Finsbury) (Lab): Does the Prime Minister agree with Downing street and ban that organisation today? the Deputy Prime Minister that the idea of introducing The Prime Minister: We have taken action against the a marriage tax allowance is “patronising drivel”? extremist group the Tehrik-e-Taliban, and we have banned it. We are looking extremely carefully at Hizb ut-Tahrir. The Prime Minister: The Deputy Prime Minister and In my view, what it has said goes well beyond what a I agree about many, many things, but that is set down in legal organisation should say, but this has to be done the coalition agreement; this is one area where we do under the law. not agree. I am a strong supporter of the institution of marriage. I do believe that it would be a good idea to Q7. [62632] Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): recognise it in the tax system. Labour’s former pensions Minister, describes the current position on public sector pensions as Q4. [62629] Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) completely untenable. Does my right hon. Friend agree (Con): Last week, six illegal migrant workers were that it is unacceptable that tomorrow a small minority arrested in my constituency; all had national insurance of trade unions will cause disruption to thousands of numbers and were paying national insurance. Why people across the country? cannot we prevent illegal workers from being issued with national insurance numbers in the first place—or, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely at the very least, flag those national insurance numbers right, and Labour Members clearly do not want to talk so that the tax authorities and the UK Border Agency about this issue. A small minority of unions has gone know that these people are not allowed to work? ahead with action, which is irresponsible and I do not 951 Oral Answers29 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 952 believe it is fair, whereas our proposals are fair. He is like, been a year of bread and circuses. There we are—I right that Lord Hutton, a former Labour Minister, got it out. It is a good idea and I want it to go on has written an extremely good report making the working, although I would like to take a little credit as it simple point that as we live longer, which is good news, was this Government who gave up power and allowed we shall have to contribute more to public sector pensions this to happen. and work longer. I stress that we are doing this not in any way to undermine public sector pensions but to Q9. [62634] Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): safeguard good, defined benefit systems for the future. People in Devon earn about £2,964 a year less than the In my view there is a contract between taxpayers and UK national average, yet our average water bill, at public sector workers that says, “You work in the public £517, is the highest in the country and well above the sector; we will support you in old age”, but it must be national average of £356. Does the Prime Minister sustainable. agree that the third option outlined in the recent Department for Food, Environment and Rural Affairs Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Is the Prime consultation on water affordability, suggesting a Minister aware of the concerns that have been expressed Government subsidy of about £50 per south-west about the new arrangements for repatriating the bodies household, would go a long way to righting this of our servicemen and men killed on active service unfairness? following the transfer to Brize Norton? What arrangements and facilities will be put in place at Brize Norton for The Prime Minister: The excessive water bills in the bereaved families and to allow the public to express south-west have been an issue for many years. I am their condolences and respect for our fallen? proud of the fact that, within a year, this Government decided to grip it. We are determined to lower the water The Prime Minister: I am well aware of the issue, not bills of households in the south-west. We pledged that least because Brize Norton is in my west Oxfordshire in the Budget, and we will set out our proposals in the constituency. A lot of thought has gone into how to do water White Paper to be published in November. this in the right way and a lot of care and thought will go into how to look after the families. It is right that we mark the passage from Wootton Bassett—soon to be Q10. [62635] Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): The Royal Wootton Bassett—to Brize Norton, and that will crisis at Southern Cross has raised fears about the be done too. viability of the residential care sector, so will the Prime Minister inject some urgency into his Government’s review of companies that provide care services? We Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): My constituency is need a belt-and-braces plan to stop the elderly proud to be home to Weeton Army barracks, but after worrying about the place that they call home. so many years of loyal and brave assistance is it not time that we did the right thing by service personnel and gave them priority in housing? The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely important point. Many of us, myself included, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important have care homes in our constituencies run by Southern point. We have for the first time put the military covenant Cross and we are extremely concerned about what has into law, which is important in ensuring that military happened and what is happening. The Health Department, personnel are not discriminated against. It is right that the Treasury and the Department for Business, Innovation every council look at what it can do positively to help and Skills are following this very closely. We are taking those who serve our country. That is certainly what powers in the Health and Social Care Bill to make sure my local council does in west Oxfordshire and, in the that we regulate these organisations properly. Local light of Brize Norton, I encourage others to do the authorities have the necessary powers to take over the same. The new Government policy of FirstBuy Direct running of care homes if required, so I believe that we helps first-time buyers on to the housing ladder, and I are planning for all contingencies in the correct way. am pleased that the housing Minister is ensuring that the policy is taken round to Army and other military Q11. [62636] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Given the bases to make sure that military personnel can take high cost of petrol, which is crucifying motorists in advantage of it. Harlow and across the country, will my right hon. Friend support the FairFuelUK campaign, urge oil Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): This companies to reduce petrol prices at the pump in line week marks the first anniversary of the Backbench with market prices and review the 3p increase next Business Committee. Does the Prime Minister think January? that over the past year Parliament has become better at holding the Government to account? If so, may we offer The Prime Minister: I want to see every chance for our help in unblocking some of the measures that are lower prices to be passed on to the consumer. The stuck in the legislative pipeline? Government have certainly taken their necessary measures: the 1p cut in fuel duty this year, the putting off the RPI The Prime Minister: I congratulate the Backbench increase and the abolition of the fuel escalator that the Committee. Over the past year, it has made a difference Labour party put in place. All those things will make a in Parliament. It is right that Parliament can choose to difference. We also took part in the release of oil stocks debate a subject of its choosing on a motion of its with the Americans, which has seen the oil price come choosing and at a time of its choosing. The Committee down and ease somewhat. We need to ensure that we has arranged for a range of issues to be discussed, from have a good competitive sector that passes on price cuts the very mundane to the quite obscure—it has, if you right through the country. 953 Oral Answers29 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 954

Q12. [62637] Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): The Prime Minister: I do not believe that we should As the review of the air passenger duty continues, will legalise any drugs that are currently criminal, but I do the Prime Minister accept that the situation is urgent, believe that drugs policy has been a failure over recent especially in my constituency of South Antrim, with years. There has been insufficient attention to the two Belfast International airport, given that APD is levied key areas of education––warning people of the dangers at £120 on a long-haul flight, when our competitors in of drugs––and treatment. One of the ways to collapse the Irish Republic have a levy of just ¤3? That the drugs market is to have a more effective treatment endangers the continental air link between Northern system. In this country particularly, we have spent too Ireland and New York. Something urgent must be much time on heroin replacement and methadone rather done now. than on trying to get people clean and clear up all the things in their lives that perhaps cause them to take The Prime Minister: I absolutely understand the hon. drugs in the first place. Gentleman’s point and I know that, with Belfast International airport in his constituency, it is of personal Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) concern to him. When I went to Northern Ireland, (Lab): Has the Prime Minister himself been involved in people explained to me the importance of maintaining seeking a solution to the appalling problems in Sudan, that direct air link to the United States. It is vital for the especially south Kordofan and, given the United Nations’ long-term health of the Province, so I want to see this concern about 60,000 people being displaced, as well as happen. My right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of other huge humanitarian problems, will he use his influence the Exchequer has spoken to people in Northern Ireland on the eve of independence to ensure that north and about this, we are reviewing the options and we will south are seen to work together? make clear a path forward. The Prime Minister: As the right hon. Gentleman knows, we are deeply involved in seeking a successful Q13. [62638] Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) outcome to this process: we fund a lot of the African (Con): My right hon. Friend will know that our Union talks process that has been ongoing, and my colleague Lord Bates is walking from Olympia in right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has visited the Greece to London, a journey of some 4,000 miles, to country, as has the Africa Minister. Britain has done a raise awareness of the Olympic truce. Will the Prime huge amount to try to make sure the comprehensive Minister ensure that when the UK Government table peace agreement is fully implemented and there is a their resolution for observance of the Olympic truce to peaceful settlement between the two countries. Clearly the United Nations General Assembly later this year, there is a lot more work to do however, and, yes, I keep we will add specific proposals for peace and a personal perspective on this issue as well. reconciliation so that we can maximise this historic opportunity? Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): What does the Prime Minister think is more fair and progressive: the The Prime Minister: The whole House will want to coalition Government’s policy of safeguarding defined congratulate Lord Bates on his great feat. [Laughter.] I benefit pension schemes in the public sector, or Labour’s am sorry about that, it was accidental. We will promote £100-billion smash and grab on private pension funds, a fresh resolution at the UN calling for the continued which directly contributed to the demise of defined observance of the Olympic truce for the 2012 games. benefit schemes in the private sector? We wish to make the most of that historic opportunity, we are considering other international initiatives to The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely promote the spirit of the truce and it says here that the good point, and I note that we are 26 minutes into Foreign and Commonwealth Office is engaging with Question Time yet we have not heard a squeak from our embassies worldwide. Labour Members about strikes, pensions or the need for reform. Because they are all paid for by the trade Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): unions, they cannot talk about this issue. What the Will not parents up and down the land be horrified to coalition Government are doing is right, because we are know that, under the Government’s proposals in the saying that we want to have a defined benefit system in Protection of Freedoms Bill, a person convicted of the public sector. We want to make sure all those raping a child will not automatically be put on the accrued rights are kept, and people will still be able to barred list for working with children in the future? take those accrued rights at the age they were originally allowed to take them. Just to put this beyond doubt, when people who are currently in a final salary scheme The Prime Minister: What we have done in terms of get the accrued benefits, they will be based on their final vetting and barring is remove a huge number of people salary; not their final salary now or when the reforms who are not a risk to children, but we do want to make go through, but the final salary when they retire. As so sure that the system works well so that anyone who has much myth and misinformation has been put around by criminal convictions is, as the hon. Lady said, barred. some in the trade unions, it is important to put that on the record here in the House. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Does the Prime Minister believe that drugs policy has been failing for Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Compared with the same decades as he said in 2005 and does he agree that the period last year, crime overall in London is up, including Government should initiate a discussion of alternative a 15% rise in robbery and an 18% rise in burglary. At the ways, including the possibility of legalisation and same time the Mayor of London has budgeted to cut regulation, to tackle the global drugs dilemma, as he 1,800 police officers. Is this the right time to be doing voted for in 2002? that, and will the Prime Minister get a grip in London? 955 Oral Answers29 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 956

The Prime Minister: The first point I would make is Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): During the that overall crime is falling; it is falling according to last Labour Government, millions of pensioners in this both the British crime survey and the police recorded country, including my grandmother, who is in the Gallery crime statistics. We are doing a huge amount to help today, saw their quality of life improve vastly with people right across the country, including in London, measures such as the winter fuel allowance, pension deal with crime: the publication of crime maps; the credits and free bus passes. What message does the introduction of police commissioners; and making sure Prime Minister have for those women who now see their we have the proper and necessary powers. daughters having to work harder and longer for less Because the hon. Gentleman is a London MP, let me money? Some will have less time to prepare for a later bring him up to date on Operation Target, which is state pension. currently running in the Metropolitan police: on average, 1,200 officers are deployed every day; there have been The Prime Minister: What I would say to the hon. 4,000 different activities and 2,000 arrests; and it is early Lady’s constituents—indeed, I would say it to all days, but there has been a drop in offences from week to pensioners—is that this Government are reforming pensions week for the most serious offences such as violence with so that we can pay a more generous state retirement injury, knife crime, street robbery and residential burglary. pension. Because of the triple lock, someone retiring [Interruption.] The fact is that Opposition Members do today will be £15,000 better off over the rest of their life not like to hear an answer when it shows the police are than they would have been under the plans that we doing their job. inherited. Linked into that, we have kept the free bus pass, the free television licence and the other free pensioner benefits. I believe that we are doing fair by Britain’s Mr Speaker: Order. Prime Minister’s questions is pensioners. principally for Back Benchers. I call Mr Graham Evans. Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): The Prime Minister Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): On the 8 June alluded earlier to the contract between taxpayers and 1944, a relative of mine, Sergeant Jack Chadwick, was public servants, but there is also a contract between shot down while dropping much-needed supplies to the taxpayers and MPs. Does he agree that MPs should be French resistance. Today he lies in a Normandy churchyard, in the vanguard of reforming pensions by reforming together with the seven-man crew of his Halifax bomber. our own, so that we can look our public sector constituents Does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister agree in the face? that it is right and proper that this nation should remember the sacrifice of the 55,000 members of Bomber The Prime Minister: I absolutely agree with my hon. Command who gave their lives to rid Europe of Nazi Friend. Members of the House are public sector workers tyranny? too, and we should be subject to exactly the same changes that we are asking others to take on. Therefore, the increase in contributions should apply to the MP The Prime Minister: I think it is absolutely right that system, even though we already pay in quite a lot. We we remember those who served in Bomber Command. I are saying that right across the board, the increase in recognise that a lot of work is going on to make sure pension contributions is right to create a healthier long-term that that is done, and that work has my support. As system. someone who recently visited one of the Commonwealth war graves cemeteries in Normandy, let me also say that Mr Speaker: Order. I appeal to hon. and right hon. it is brilliant that their upkeep is so good, and that such Members who are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly a huge amount of work goes into making sure that and quietly, so that we can hear the statement by the relatives can visit and see their fallen heroes. Foreign Secretary. 957 29 JUNE 2011 Africa and the Middle East 958

Africa and the Middle East to facilitate the start of an inclusive national dialogue in Libya. The TNC has begun to make contacts across 12.31 pm Libya in support of that process. In the last week, it received the first $100 million of international funding The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth through the temporary financing mechanism set up by Affairs (Mr William Hague): With permission, I will the contact group for vital fuel and salaries. I will attend make a statement on north Africa and the middle east, the next meeting of the contact group in Istanbul next on which I have undertaken to keep the House regularly month, which we hope will focus on ensuring that the updated. international community is ready to support the Our country has a compelling interest in seeing the Libyan people in building a peaceful and stable future nations of the wider middle east move towards more in post-Gaddafi Libya. It is vital that plans for post-conflict open societies, political systems and economies. We Libya are prepared and, as far as possible, agreed in cannot dictate change in the region, but we can use our advance. membership of the UN Security Council, NATO and An international stabilisation response team from the EU, and our close links in the region, to encourage the UK, the US, Turkey, Italy and Denmark visited reform, and we can stand up against repression and Libya between 20 May and 9 June to assess violence, which we have seen taken to extremes in Libya stabilisation needs. It has identified a range of areas and Syria. where Libya will need immediate support, including Britain continues to play its full part in implementing political settlement, security and justice, basic services, the no-fly zone over Libya, and the measures called for economy and infrastructure. However, this process should, in UN Security Council resolutions 1970 and 1973 to of course, be owned by the Libyan people. The UN has protect civilians. Our actions continue to save lives. confirmed the importance of early preparations for the NATO strikes have prevented Benghazi from falling, post-conflict position and the leading role of the UN. reduced pressure on Misrata, and enabled the delivery The Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department of humanitarian aid and the evacuation of thousands for International Development and the Ministry of of wounded people. Defence are co-ordinating closely to identify where the More than 13,000 sorties have been carried out since UK, in addition to our international partners, can 31 March, including nearly 5,000 strike sorties. In June provide key expertise in support of their efforts. alone, 131 military facilities and 343 tanks and vehicles Members on both sides of the House will also be have been hit. I hope the House will join me, as ever, in concerned about the grave situation in Syria, which paying tribute to the men and women of our armed shows no sign of abating. Protests across the country forces who are carrying out that vital work. We can and are still being met by unacceptable violence from the we will sustain those operations for as long as necessary, regime, and the reports of Syrian troop movements until the regime ceases attacks on its own people and near the Turkish border are of serious concern. President complies with the UN resolutions. As my right hon. Assad’s speech on 20 June was disappointing in its Friend the Defence Secretary has said, we have the failure to take any concrete action to stop the violence military capability, political resolve and legal authority and change the situation on the ground. It did contain to see through what we have started. some proposals for reform, including plans for a national Support for the regime within Libya is being eroded dialogue, constitutional reform and new laws on political as we and our allies intensify the military, political and parties, elections and the media. To be significant, such diplomatic pressure upon it. The EU sanctions on ports changes would need to be implemented quickly and in western Libya, which I announced in my last statement, fully. The regime needs to show that these pledges are have now been put into effect. I welcome the decision of more than tactical calculations designed to buy time the International Criminal Court to issue arrest warrants and appease the demonstrators, which so far it has for Gaddafi, his son Saif al-Islam al-Gaddafi, and his not done. intelligence chief, Abdullah al-Senussi. That confirms The holding of a public meeting of opposition figures that there can be no future for the Gaddafi regime in Damascus on 27 June—the first of its kind in a leading Libya, and that any of its adherents who do not decade—was a positive step, and I hope that further want to be associated with human rights violations such meetings can be held. However, without an end to should abandon it, as many former ambassadors, Ministers, the violence, the release of political prisoners, including military officials and members Gaddafi’s inner circle those detained in recent demonstrations, and a guarantee already have. of the right to peaceful protest, there can be no credible In addition to that pressure, we are working with attempt at national dialogue and the opposition meeting more than 40 states and organisations to support a will have been a wasted opportunity. Last week, the political transition in Libya through the Libya contact EU imposed further sanctions against 11 individuals group. That includes the UN, the Arab League and the and entities associated with violent repression against African Union. At its third meeting in Abu Dhabi on civilians. The draft UN Security Council resolution that 9 June, Egypt and South Africa were also represented Britain has circulated remains on the table. We believe for the first time as observers. The contact group’s work that the Security Council should speak out against to support an inclusive political transition, as set out in repression in Syria, and that President Assad must the transitional national council’s road map on Libya, is reform or step aside. gathering pace. I spoke yesterday to the Turkish Foreign Minister, UN special envoy al-Khatib is leading the political who briefed me on Turkey’s efforts to persuade President efforts. I met him last week in Luxembourg, and we Assad to change course and implement reform. It is hope that in the coming weeks he will engage intensively important that we use all available channels to convey with all parties. In Abu Dhabi, the contact group agreed this message to President Assad. This week, my hon. 959 Africa and the Middle East29 JUNE 2011 Africa and the Middle East 960

[Mr William Hague] state of national safety, but we look to Bahrain to match such announcements with concrete actions to Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) travelled address the legitimate aspirations of the Bahraini people to Syria in a private capacity where he met President and we look to leading figures on both sides in Bahrain Assad. He told him that international pressure on Syria to promote successful and peaceful dialogue. will only increase if it continues on its current path. Iran continues to connive in the suppression of legitimate Given that only a change of course in Syria will bring protest in Syria and to suppress protests at home. I about an end to the violence, we should welcome contacts therefore welcome the European Council’s decision to that reinforce the need for urgent change. Yesterday, my sanction three senior commanders of the Islamic officials also made clear to the Syrian ambassador our revolutionary guards corps. Iran has also been carrying strong concern about allegations that a diplomat at the out covert ballistic missile tests and rocket launches, Syrian embassy has been intimidating Syrians in Britain. including testing missiles capable of delivering a nuclear Any such activity would amount to a clear breach of payload in contravention of UN resolution 1929 and it acceptable behaviour, and if such claims were substantiated, has announced that it intends to triple its capacity to we would respond swiftly and appropriately. produce 20%-enriched uranium. These are enrichment Elsewhere, there have been positive developments in levels far greater than is needed for peaceful nuclear Jordan, where King Abdullah has pledged to promote energy. We will maintain and continue to increase pressure political and economic reform. He has set out his vision on Iran to negotiate an agreement on its nuclear programme, to develop Jordan’s democracy and engage widely with building on the strengthening of sanctions I announced Jordanian society. We stand ready to use the UK’s to the House earlier this month. bilateral Arab partnership fund to support this process In Yemen,President Saleh’s departure has been followed where we can. We also welcome the announcement by by greater calm in Sana’a. However I remain concerned the King of Morocco of a new draft constitution on about greater instability in Yemen and the possibility of 17 June, which includes a strengthened role for the economic collapse and humanitarian crisis. The Prime Minister and Parliament, and greater constitutional Government of Yemen must confront these challenges protection for human rights and gender equality. There urgently. We encourage all parties, including the President, will be a referendum on 1 July and we look forward to to engage in political dialogue regarding an orderly parliamentary elections scheduled for October. transition on the basis of the Gulf Co-operation Council I welcome the support expressed in the House on initiative, which remains the most credible plan. We also previous occasions for UK leadership on the reform of continue to advise against all travel to Yemen and urge the European neighbourhood policy and the ambitious all British nationals to leave the country now, while international response to the region that we saw at the commercial carriers are still flying. G8 summit in Deauville. Multilateral development banks, South Sudan’s independence is now just over a week including the World Bank, the African Development away, but it is set to take place against a backdrop of Bank and the European Investment Bank, will offer to conflict and unresolved issues. We welcome the agreement provide more than $20 billion in support of reform reached on Abyei, which paves the way for a swift efforts over the next two years. It is crucial that the withdrawal of Sudanese armed forces from Abyei and international response to the Arab spring remains ambitious, for the deployment of Ethiopian peacekeeping troops generous and bold and includes the real prospect of under a UN mandate. The UN Security Council has closer association with the EU, including market access, moved swiftly to adopt a mandate for this new mission. in response to political and economic reform. This is just a first step and we call on the parties to I can also report progress on the Arab partnership implement their commitments. since the Prime Minister’s announcement of its expansion The continued violence in southern Kordofan is also to £110 million over four years. In Tunisia, we are deeply troubling, with reports of indiscriminate aerial supporting steps to improve voter education, freedom bombardment by the Sudanese armed forces and of of expression and balanced reporting in the run-up to individuals being targeted on the basis of their ethnicity October’s important Constituent Assembly elections. or political affiliation. I call on all parties to agree an Last week, Tunisia became the first north African state immediate cessation of hostilities and to allow immediate to ratify the Rome statute of the International Criminal access to humanitarian agencies. I welcome the news Court—a very welcome indication of its commitment that a framework agreement was signed last night and I to reform—and in Egypt we are working with those hope that it will soon be followed by a ceasefire. We running the forthcoming parliamentary elections. We continue to urge north and south to use the good offices remain concerned, though, that parliamentary elections of former President Mbeki to resolve outstanding issues in September may be too soon to allow a wide range of under the comprehensive peace agreement before 9 July. political parties to mobilise fully. It is particularly important that they agree the sharing In comparison with these more encouraging of oil revenue and citizenship issues, as well as their developments, I am deeply concerned by the situation border. The African Union-led negotiations, which are in Bahrain. While every Government has the right and funded by the United Kingdom, resume in Addis Ababa duty to maintain law and order, the suspension and on 3 July, and I urge the parties to seize this opportunity investigation of political parties, the imprisonment of to build long-term peace and stability in Sudan. leading moderate politicians, the alleged mistreatment All these events in the region call for a redoubling of of detainees and the trial of members of the medical international efforts to support peace, stability and profession before tribunals containing a military judge democracy. Nowhere is this need more pressing than in were all damaging to Bahrain and were all steps in the the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There is no alternative wrong direction. I welcome the King’s announcement to negotiations, recommenced as a matter of urgency, of a national dialogue from 1 July and the end of the to address the fundamental issues at the heart of a 961 Africa and the Middle East29 JUNE 2011 Africa and the Middle East 962 two-state solution. We call on the parties to return to default, it appears, rather than by design, the Foreign the negotiating table, for no other option will bring Secretary has, in his own words to this House, ensured lasting peace. We will continue to defend human rights that and support political and economic freedom throughout “Britain is in the lead in post-conflict planning.”—[Official Report, a region undergoing momentous change and experiencing 7 June 2011; Vol. 529, c. 38.] a chain of crises, and we will continue to work closely Yet in written answers to my questions he subsequently with our allies in the interests of peace and stability for admitted that not a single official in the Foreign Office this region and across the world. or in the Ministry of Defence’s offices in Whitehall was working full time on post-conflict planning in Libya. Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire Of course we welcome the work that the Department South) (Lab): May I begin by expressing my unequivocal for International Development is doing to plan on condemnation of the attacks on the Inter-Continental humanitarian issues, but the security and political aspects hotel in Kabul, reports of which have reached the of post-conflict planning are just as important and are, United Kingdom in recent hours? I am sure that the in fact, a prerequisite for any effective humanitarian thoughts of the whole House will be with the families response. On Monday, my right hon. Friend the Leader and friends of the victims of this attack, which was of the Opposition asked the Prime Minister specifically clearly designed to take human life and undermine about this subject, but received little reassurance. We efforts, including those of British service personnel, to are now more than 100 days into this conflict, and it is build a stable Afghanistan. 24 days since the Foreign Secretary said that post-conflict I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s remarks on the planning was at an “embryonic” stage. Can he tell us, situation in Sudan, Iran, Yemen, Morocco and Jordan, where is the plan? Who is in charge? Is he actually and, indeed, the broader tenor of his remarks on the confident that the necessary work is being done? Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The events of the past six months in north Africa and On the mission in Libya, we continue to support the the middle east have been a test of every Foreign work of our armed forces in upholding UN Security Ministry around the world. On Libya, while we were Council resolutions 1970 and 1973 to protect the Libyan critical of the Government’s early errors in getting UK people, and I am happy to join the Foreign Secretary in personnel out and making contact with the transitional again paying tribute to the brave men and women of national council, we have supported the United Nations our armed forces. mission. While some of the attention has now left Last week, under pressure from my right hon. Friend Egypt, the most populous country going through a the shadow Chancellor, the Government revealed that process of change, we cannot ignore the fact that the the cost of the mission in Libya had run to £260 million, new Egypt’s success or failure will probably be the in contrast to the tens of millions that the Chancellor single most fundamental test of the Arab spring’s long-term had previously suggested. Given these escalating costs, impact. The Foreign Secretary will be aware that the can the Foreign Secretary restate the Government’s Egyptian Finance Ministry now states: guarantee that no personnel, equipment or resources “Tourism collapsed temporarily, banks and the stock market will be diverted from the Afghanistan campaign to were closed, capital flows reversed rapidly, and the manufacturing, support the Libyan campaign? Is he able to tell the construction, and internal trade suffered…the Egyptian economy House what efforts the Government are making to help will likely contract by 1.4 percent in the second half of the current to spread the financial cost among international partners fiscal year”. so that it does not fall exclusively on those most involved The G8 meeting at Deauville, to which the Foreign in the military side of the campaign to increase pressure Secretary referred, made great play of a promise of on the Gaddafi regime? $20 billion in support for the transitions in Egypt and I note the Foreign Secretary’s confirmation that the Tunisia. Today, the Foreign Secretary was able to say temporary financing mechanism is now operating. only that those resources would be offered by the multilateral Yesterday, however, there were troubling reports on the development banks, including the World Bank, the BBC that a medical crisis was looming in eastern Libya, African Development Bank and the European Investment with hospitals in Benghazi running short of supplies. Bank. Will he therefore take this opportunity to be The transitional national council says that this is a more specific about how much of that $20 billion is new result of serious financial difficulties. Can the Foreign money, and about what proportion is in either grants or Secretary offer the House any assurances that the temporary loans? financing mechanism will indeed allow resources to Many hon. Members were disappointed by the right travel to where they are needed sufficiently quickly? hon. Gentleman’s refusal at an earlier exchange to The right hon. Gentleman will know that for a number condemn attempts to re-establish the grand prix in of weeks the Opposition and, indeed, many voices Bahrain while violent suppression was still being threatened beyond the Opposition, have been raising the question in that country, but the decision to allow a member of of post-conflict planning, and I therefore listened with the Government, the hon. Member for Braintree care to his statement. Of course, we all hope for a (Mr Newmark), to undertake a private diplomatic mission resolution to the conflict soon, and we hope for a to Syria is a source not so much of disappointment as of post-Gaddafi Libya. As the Foreign Secretary said, this incredulity. week the International Criminal Court issued a warrant The job of Government Whips is to enforce collective for Gaddafi to be sent to The Hague to be tried for decision making, not flagrantly disregard it, yet the best crimes against humanity. But if those wishes were granted explanation that the Foreign Secretary was able to offer tomorrow, it is still unclear, after the Foreign Secretary’s today for that curious mission is that the hon. Gentleman statement today, whether the transitional national council travelled to Syria “in a private capacity”. Really? Why and the international community would be ready. By did the Foreign Secretary allow a member of the 963 Africa and the Middle East29 JUNE 2011 Africa and the Middle East 964

[Mr Douglas Alexander] The important thing to bear in mind, and on which I hope there is agreement throughout the House, is that, Government, but not a Foreign and Commonwealth if we had not acted in Libya but allowed the humanitarian Office Minister, in the midst of allegations of intimidation catastrophe that would have resulted from Gaddafi by the Syrian embassy on the streets of Britain and overrunning by force the rest of Libya, and destabilising evidence of indiscriminate murder on the streets of the neighbouring countries of Egypt and Tunisia in the Syria, to travel to meet President Assad last weekend? It process, to happen, the costs would have been incalculable really does prompt the question: is this Government’s to European countries in uncontrolled migration and in foreign policy being run out of the Foreign Office or new breeding grounds for terrorism and extremism. The out of the Whips Office? cost of the campaign in Libya has to be set against Just after the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary those considerations, and that is a very important point. made the case for expanded sanctions on Syria—sanctions The right hon. Gentleman asked whether, if Gaddafi which were achieved at the European Council and went tomorrow, we would be any further on, and I which the Opposition had called for and welcome—the think that we would be a lot further on than we were a hon. Member for Braintree was entering into his own few weeks ago, when I said quite rightly that planning three-hour dialogue with President Assad. These are was at an embryonic stage. The stabilisation unit has dangerous and delicate days in Syria which demand prepared its report, but it would be quite wrong for the from the British Government discipline, grip and coherence international community to say, “That is what we are in policy and in the communication of that policy. This going to try to impose on Libya.” is surely no time for do-it-yourself diplomacy. This is not an invasion of Libya; this is about Libyans To summarise, where we can we will support this being able to take responsibility for their own future. Government’s approach to the middle east and north That is why I urged the Turkish Foreign Minister in my Africa, but the House needs clearer answers on post-conflict discussions with him yesterday to ensure that such planning, a clearer strategy for the whole region and, stabilisation work is discussed at the contact group in frankly, clarity on who speaks for the Government in Istanbul, and that the national transitional council is their communications with Syria. able to take it into its planning for the future. It is not something that anybody can sit in an office anywhere in Mr Hague: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman the western world and just decide; it is valuable work for mentioning events in Kabul, which I did not refer to that feeds into the planning process for post-conflict earlier given the focus on the middle east and north stabilisation in Libya, in which we hope that Libyans Africa. Clearly, however, we are very concerned that will take the lead, and of course that the United Nations British nationals were caught up in the attack on the will take a leading role. Inter-Continental hotel, and our consular services have The right hon. Gentleman asked about the involvement been very busy in Kabul looking after them. I spoke on of the Foreign Office, but things have changed dramatically the telephone this morning to one of the two British in the past year in terms of the work between the nationals involved, and I am pleased to say that they are Foreign and Commonwealth Office on the one hand safe and sound and will return speedily to this country. and the Department for International Development on The attack is part of a pattern of Taliban activity in the other. On entering office, I was appalled by how Afghanistan—against the momentum that the international poor relations had been between DFID and the FCO, security assistance force has gathered—to try to make for which he must bear part of the responsibility, having highly publicised attacks on civilian targets, as well as been a Minister in both Departments. sometimes on military targets, in Afghanistan. We should The Secretary of State for International Development not be fooled by that. I saw for myself in Afghanistan and I have taught our Departments that they are each last week the progress that we are making on the other’s best friend, and we needed to after the activities ground, particularly in Helmand where British troops of the previous Government, so the right hon. Gentleman are so heavily employed, and I am sure that the House can be sure that at all levels, whether in Benghazi, in will be unified in its concern at that attack, as the right Whitehall, or in the National Security Council where all hon. Gentleman reflected. the work is put together, vast numbers—dozens—of I am grateful also for the right hon. Gentleman’s Foreign Office officials are connected with it. His questions continued support, and for the continued widespread on that do not live up to the subject, and they are support throughout the House, for our implementation certainly not commensurate with his rather poor record of resolutions 1970 and 1973 and for the work of our on those matters. armed forces in implementing them. He asked about the On Egypt and financing, the situation depends on the cost of the campaign, and, in referring yesterday to demand and readiness of such countries to access the £260 million, my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary funds. It is mainly financing and loans that are on offer, explained the estimated and expected cost over six but they are on offer advantageously, and take-up will months, so not the cost to date. depend on the response of countries throughout north Those costs and our military activities do not impinge Africa to the opportunity. Egypt has not taken up the on our work in Afghanistan, as I again saw for myself offer, but it may do so under a future Government, and last week. Clearly, the greater costs of the military we hope that it will. campaign fall on those nations that undertake the military On Syria, I think that the only incredulity is about the activity, and we might all wish that NATO had different nature of the right hon. Gentleman’s questions, because financing arrangements, but that is how it works. there is no doubt about international unity and support Nevertheless, many other nations contribute to the cost on the matter. Foreign policy is not conducted in a in other ways, including in humanitarian support, and bunker, where we do not communicate with people with they will be able to contribute to future stabilisation. whom we disagree. We have diplomatic relations with 965 Africa and the Middle East29 JUNE 2011 Africa and the Middle East 966

Syria; I have communicated with the Syrian Foreign by the renewal, for 90 days from 27 June, of the mandate Minister; we communicate with the Syrian ambassador for NATO, which was agreed unanimously. While it all the time; we send messages through the Turkish might be desirable for even more of the NATO nations Foreign Minister and through Arab Foreign Ministers; to make a military contribution—and that continues to and we send messages also through people whom President be desirable—and we should analyse these things afterwards, Assad has met frequently before. we should not say that there is no co-ordination, when That is why it is entirely right and proper for my hon. there is a great deal. Friend the Member for Braintree to have visited President Assad and communicated messages in accordance with Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): I welcome the views of the international community. It seems to be the Foreign Secretary’s assessment that the regime in only the right hon. Gentleman who thinks that we Libya is being eroded, and I welcome the arrest warrants should not communicate such messages through every issued by the International Criminal Court, but what available channel. does he say to those who feel that the warrants are counter-productive, in that they make it more difficult With the exception of a couple of areas that I thought for Colonel Gaddafi to make an exit, given that he were rather petty, trivial and incredulous, I welcome as knows that he will probably face arrest? usual the generous cross-party spirit of the right hon. Gentleman’s questions and our continued unity on the importance of these subjects. Mr Hague: If we accepted that argument, we would not have the ICC or have embarked on this in the first place. It can be argued that there is a downside to the Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): However warrants, in that a negotiated outcome to different welcome it may be that the International Criminal conflicts at different times can be made more difficult Court has issued those warrants, is not it the case that by such a legal process. On the other hand, the existence on a realistic assessment we can hardly be wholly confident of such a process, which we have seen come to fruition that Colonel Gaddafi will ever face the Court? Does my in many cases in the past decade, is a stark reminder to right hon. Friend agree, however, that the significance tyrants and generals who get out of control, and to of issuing the warrants is as much political as legal, in people who belong to regimes that commit crimes against that it demonstrates a unified international response to humanity, the international process poses a serious risk the barbarism of Colonel Gaddafi and those about that they will not be able to escape. The deterrent effect him? on regimes such as that in Libya therefore has to be set against the downside to which my hon. Friend has Mr Hague: My right hon. and learned Friend is right: drawn attention. If we believe in the ICC, as we do in it is a legal process, but it is of political importance. It is the United Kingdom—we have subscribed to it and a political statement by the world that the behaviour of passed an Act of Parliament to bring about our the Gaddafi regime is unacceptable and that it should participation in it—we must stand by its decisions and be accountable for that behaviour. It sends, as I have support the efforts to bring people to justice within its said, a clear message to adherents of the regime that ambit. there is every risk of being held accountable. We cannot provide certainty, but these warrants show an ever-increasing Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): risk to supporters of the regime of facing that accountability, Will the Foreign Secretary protest in the strongest terms so more of them should take the opportunity to leave it. to the Israeli Government about the attack by Israeli troops on a group of children on the west bank with Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): The tear gas and stun grenades, when they were not involved different reaction to the Arab spring, and to Libya in in any kind of political activity but were having a rare particular, by NATO countries and—on occasion—the day of organised entertainment and fun? As even the complete contradiction of their policies surely suggests Jewish Chronicle now compares Netanyahu with Ceausescu, the need for a post-mortem on the Libyan situation. Is when will we take action to deal with these thugs? thought being given to starting some analysis of why NATO countries have reacted so differently and not in Mr Hague: As ever, we call on the Israeli authorities, any kind of co-ordinated way to this problem? like any other authorities in the region, to deal proportionately and with only necessary force with any Mr Hague: While, of course, we will want to analyse disturbances that may arise. I will look at the instance the campaign when it is over, the right hon. Gentleman that the right hon. Gentleman has described and see has referred to a post-mortem when the campaign is what representations we should make to the Israeli very much alive. Therefore we should not be diverted at Government about it. He has heard me many times call the moment. I would not go as far as him, because he is for a proportionate response and for the right to peaceful in danger of exaggerating when he says that there has protest. That applies in Israel and the occupied territories been no kind of co-ordination. NATO got things together just as it should apply elsewhere in the region. and took over the campaign much more rapidly than was the case in previous campaigns. Eighteen nations Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I welcome the fact are involved in the military action and 34 nations are that Colonel Gaddafi, his son and his chief of intelligence involved in supporting those efforts—the NATO nations have been indicted by the ICC. Speaking as someone and six Arab nations. He is right to draw attention to who has given evidence in five trials in The Hague, I the fact that some NATO nations have taken part in the wonder whether my right hon. Friend might be able to military aspects of the campaign and others have not. say how the Government could help in the arrest and They are sovereign nations and can make those decisions, extradition of those three people in practical terms. I but the political unity of NATO is clear, as demonstrated understand that it is very difficult. 967 Africa and the Middle East29 JUNE 2011 Africa and the Middle East 968

Mr Hague: My hon. Friend draws attention to the Mr Hague: Such decisions are made not by me but point that I made earlier: the ICC has proved that it my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. She has to functions—people are hauled before it and there are take into account all relevant considerations, and I have consequences for crimes against humanity and other absolute confidence in her doing so. very serious, internationally recognised offences. How we can assist will, of course, depend on the situation in David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Does the post-conflict Libya, but we will certainly stand by the Foreign Secretary agree that his efforts abroad are activities of the ICC and will want to see its proceedings undermined when we allow racist, homophobic extremists upheld. such as Raed Salah to come into the country and stir up hatred? What we need is peace across Europe and the Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): On the question of rest of the middle east. Syria, last week I raised with the Leader of the House the incident that the Foreign Secretary has mentioned Mr Hague: That is the alternative view to that expressed concerning the intimidation of and threats against by the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), young Syrian activists in this country and their families at who has received his answer. home in Syria. Will the Foreign Secretary enlarge on the conversation that he had with the Syrian ambassador? Did the ambassador admit to any of the suggestions Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): that the Syrian embassy was complicit in such intimidation? When the Foreign Secretary replied to my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South Mr Hague: I can tell the right hon. Lady only a little (Mr Alexander) on the attack on the Intercontinental more. My officials have had that conversation with the hotel in Kabul, he said that he was doing everything Syrian ambassador, who did not admit to any of those possible to safeguard the interests of British citizens activities. I can only repeat what I said in my statement: who were caught up in the attack. He also said that we if these accusations of intimidation can be substantiated— are making some progress in the military fight against they have not been so far, from what we can tell— the Taliban. Does he agree, however, that the continuation appropriate action will be taken by the Government. of such incidents, which are perpetrated almost at will by the Taliban, shows that only a political solution can resolve the crisis? We understand that contacts are Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): All parties under way with the Taliban. Will he tell us something could do more to bring about a peaceful settlement about them and assure us that the British Government between Israel and the Palestinians, but does my right will give their full support to progressing them? hon. Friend agree that it is deeply unrealistic to expect any Israeli Government, of whatever character, to sit down and negotiate in any way or in any forum with Mr Hague: Yes, we are fully in favour of political Hamas, an organisation which refuses to recognise Israel reconciliation in Afghanistan. I am trying not to say too or to abide by existing agreements, and is causing or much about this, as this is a statement on north Africa permitting the firing of ever deadlier rockets further and the middle east. We will, no doubt, return to and further into Israeli territory—not tear gas, but Afghanistan on other occasions. Yes, we believe in a rockets? Can we have more of a focus on clearing away political settlement and in a political surge, as that fundamental obstacle to peace? Secretary Clinton put it, as well as a military surge in Afghanistan. It is important that we do not jump to the Mr Hague: My hon. Friend is right to draw attention conclusion that the attack on the Intercontinental hotel to Hamas, which remains a proscribed organisation. I shows that what we are doing in Afghanistan is not take this opportunity to call again for the release of working; it is designed to give us that impression, and Gilad Shalit, which, if it were to happen, would certainly we should not fall for that. It is a terrorist tactic designed advance the interests of peace in the region. We are not to induce that state of mind in western capitals. In calling on Israel to negotiate with Hamas, but we look reality, a huge amount is being achieved, and we should to the new Palestinian Authority, who are still being remember that. constructed after the new agreement between Fatah and Hamas, to negotiate for a two-state solution, to believe Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): In in a peaceful negotiated settlement and to recognise the what appears to be the most protracted assassination previous agreements entered into by the Palestine Liberation attempt in history, does the Foreign Secretary believe Organisation. If the Palestinian Authority do that, Israel that the targeting of Gaddafi’s Winnebago and family should be prepared to negotiate with them. homes continues to fall within the remit of UN resolution 1973, and if so why? Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): The Foreign Secretary rightly talked about the need for participation Mr Hague: I disagree with my hon. Friend’s view of by all sides to bring about a resolution of the conflict the Libya campaign. He must remember that what we between Palestine and Israel. In that context, does he are doing has probably saved thousands of lives in think it important to meet representatives of Palestinian Benghazi and Misrata. To characterise the campaign as opinion who live within the post-1948 borders of Israel, an assassination campaign is wrong. The Defence Secretary including Raed Salah? Why has Raed Salah been banned and I have made clear our position on targeting—we do from this country, having been here for four days already not go into the details of targets. Our targeting depends and being due to speak at a meeting this evening in the on the behaviour of those involved, and it has included House of Commons to help the process of dialogue the command systems of the Gaddafi regime. In my between Palestinians and others to bring about a peaceful hon. Friend’s description, I do not recognise the actual solution? NATO campaign. 969 Africa and the Middle East29 JUNE 2011 Africa and the Middle East 970

Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Earlier Lady has described. There is also the indiscriminate today, Palestine solidarity groups, politicians, teachers bombardment by artillery and the attacks on built-up and others marked the anniversary of the attacks on the areas, such as those we have seen in Misrata. The work Free Gaza flotilla last year by sailing down the river that our armed forces do to prevent attacks and the outside Parliament and marking the launch of a new harassment of civilians under UN resolution 1973 is Free Gaza flotilla. As the Foreign Secretary has previously important. None the less, it does not include putting said that the situation in Gaza is unacceptable and troops on the ground and invading Libya to separate unsustainable, will he tell us what further action he is those forces. That would not be within the UN resolution, taking to help get the siege lifted, and will he do and that is not what we will do. We will continue to use everything that he can to get guarantees that this new air strikes to try to separate Gaddafi’s forces from those flotilla will be safe from attack? vulnerable people, and we have had a lot of success in doing just that. Mr Hague: We have continued to take the action that I set out in the House last year. We have urged Israel Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I greatly to improve access to Gaza. It has taken some welcome the statement, which illustrates what a volatile steps, but those steps have not been as fruitful as we had and unpredictable period of change the middle east is hoped when they were set out. Egypt has now opened now experiencing. Will my right hon. Friend join me in an important crossing into Gaza, which may also provide condemning the recruitment of women and children by some relief. The answer relies on the general lifting of a Gaddafi to be trained to fire AK47s and rocket-propelled blockade of Gaza and on a negotiated two-state solution grenades? Is such training not a sign of a desperate regime? in the middle east. However, embarking on new flotillas is not the way in which to bring that about. We advise Mr Hague: It is another sign of a desperate regime. It against all travel to Gaza by British nationals, which adds to the tactics, which were described by the hon. includes people who may be thinking of boarding a Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), flotilla to go there. We hope that Israel will make only a and the recruitment of mercenaries by the Gaddafi proportionate response to any such flotilla, but it is, regime to prosecute a war against their own people. none the less, not the way in which to sort out the Many of Libya’s own soldiers and officers are unwilling problems of the middle east. Such problems require to fight. Certainly, it is a desperate regime, and we must negotiations in good faith by the parties concerned. continue to turn up the pressure on it to implement the Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I strongly welcome UN resolutions. the Foreign Secretary’s remarks about Israel and Palestine, especially his encouragement to Israel to be open to Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): negotiations on a united Palestinian Authority, if they The statement has covered a vast range of important are freely elected by the Palestinian people. Does he issues. May I ask about one specific matter? The Secretary believe that both parties could learn from our own of State will be aware that the Republic of Somaliland example in Northern Ireland by dropping other unhelpful is a beacon of democracy in the horn of Africa in stark preconditions to talks, such as those that relate to contrast with Somalia in the south. Somaliland has Jerusalem on the one side or the extent of variations to offered us help in the form of access to the port of the 1967 border on the other? Berbera and stands firm against both pirates and terrorists. Will the Secretary of State assure us that he is treating Mr Hague: I will go a long way with my hon. Friend Somaliland as an ally, the stability and success of which on this. We want a return to negotiations; that is absolutely is important to us and to the whole region? right. I have set out the conditions under which Israel should resume its negotiations with the Palestinian Mr Hague: The right hon. Gentleman has made an Authority, which are the same conditions in relation to important point. We have stepped up our diplomatic the PA. We need the negotiations to succeed so we contacts with Somaliland. None the less, we must not should not be setting new hurdles. Comparisons with let that distract us from our efforts and those of other negotiations elsewhere, including those in Northern African nations to create greater stability in Somalia Ireland, are fraught with difficulty. The situations are overall or threaten the future territorial integrity of not exactly the same and have not reached the point at Somalia. We are doing what he has described and which negotiations really started to bear fruit in Northern ensuring that we work with the authorities there, and we Ireland. A lot of painstaking work still has to be done will increase the emphasis that we place on that. on this, but it would be a good start, after President Obama’s speech and his statement on the 1967 borders, Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): Egypt for both the Israelis and the Palestinians to make it is clearly far more important to regional stability than clear that they are happy to return to direct negotiations Tunisia, but it is a place where, because of its scale, with each other. British influence is likely to be quite limited. Tunisia, Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): There however, is a place where, with some focus and resources, is great concern about the use of rape as a weapon of we could make a symbolic and sustainable difference. war by Gaddafi’s army. Will the Foreign Secretary tell Will the Foreign Secretary please explain the principles the House what specific actions the UK Government on which our priorities are determined and our resources are taking to protect women and girls against such allocated between the two? appalling attacks? Mr Hague: That is a legitimate question, to which Mr Hague: Almost everything that we do in Libya is there is no fixed or dogmatic answer. The future of both designed to protect civilians from the entire range of countries in the light of the Arab spring will be important, horrendous attacks, including of the type that the hon. and my hon. Friend is right to imply that Tunisia, a 971 Africa and the Middle East29 JUNE 2011 Africa and the Middle East 972

[Mr Hague] Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Along with much else in the statement, I welcome the urgent attention that the much smaller country than Egypt, might find many of Foreign Secretary is giving to events in Sudan. May I the necessary reforms easier to accomplish—certainly, join him in welcoming the ICC’s warrant for the arrest one gets that feeling on visiting Tunisia. So far, Tunisia’s of Gaddafi for his crimes, but should those who provided progress towards elections for its constituent assembly him with the infrastructure of repression and the weaponry and so on have been more pain free. Nevertheless, in for civilian slaughter not also be deemed complicit in assessing priorities, given the scale of Egypt’s population the scale of his crimes? and influence in the Arab world, and its absolutely vital strategic position in the middle east, we must devote a Mr Hague: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for great deal of our attention and support to Egypt. There those words. We will need to reflect on those things over is no escape from doing that. Success in the Arab time and learn lessons from them in the future, but let spring—open political institutions and an open economy us remember that the ICC is dealing with the people in Tunisia, but failure in Egypt—would still be a massive most directly culpable for crimes against humanity. It is failure overall, so we must devote a large proportion of important that its work is concentrated on those individuals, our time and resources to Egypt. but there will certainly be wider lessons to learn.

John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): Is there a danger On the proposed flotilla, what active steps is the Foreign that Colonel Gaddafi misreads recent statements by Secretary taking to persuade its organisers both here Amr Moussa, the outgoing secretary-general of the and abroad that it would be a provocative act that Arab League and current presidential candidate in Egypt, would do nothing to promote greater peace and stability in which he has called for a ceasefire and the commencement in the region? of peace talks while the existing Libyan leader is in place, and therefore underestimates the unity of purpose Mr Hague: I have just taken the active step of speaking in the international community in enforcing the UN about this here in the House of Commons. Although all resolutions? Members of Parliament are well aware that speaking in the House of Commons can be a secret activity at times, Mr Hague: I hope that any such danger will be I hope that this message, which we will be happy to removed by the continued meetings of the contact amplify and repeat, will be understood by anyone who group, on which the Arab League is represented and at contemplates going into that situation. We advise against which international unity is strengthening, not weakening. all travel to Gaza and embarkation on such flotillas is The contact group meeting in Abu Dhabi was attended not the way to try to resolve these conflicts. by seven additional nations, as well as by organisations such as the Organisation of the Islamic Conference and Mr Speaker: Statements by the Foreign Secretary are the Arab League. I am sure that the meeting in Istanbul not a secret; they are discussed in every pub in the land in two weeks’ time will also be well attended and very every day. united, so if Gaddafi is under any misapprehension about the unity of the international community, he will Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): find that that is rapidly removed. I commend my right hon. Friend’s determination to see through the NATO campaign to a positive conclusion, Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): but when did the Government first realise that the I support our actions in Libya, but there is often a great campaign might take 100 days, six months or even deal of cynicism about the motivations of western longer? May I advise him that, having produced a nations in getting involved in such conflicts. What can report on strategic thinking in government, which the the Foreign Secretary tell us about the criteria that the director of the Royal United Services Institute this Government will apply to interventions in possible future morning described as a landmark report, the Public conflicts, so that our constituents and, indeed, foreign Administration Committee will return to the subject of nations appreciate that we will apply a consistent approach how such decisions and assessments are made on a to these matters? cross-departmental basis, which, as he rightly claims, he has much improved under this Government? Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman is right that, after events over the past decade, there is a good deal of Mr Hague: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and look cynicism about these things. We must clearly explain the forward to the Public Administration Committee’s further humanitarian motives, as well as our national interest, consideration of the development of strategic thinking that have involved us in Libya and give the full background. in government. To answer his question on the length of He has asked about criteria. I have often referred in the time, there is no fixed answer and no soothsayer would House to one of the important criteria: in the case of be able to divine how short or how long the Libya Libya, we are acting with full, legal, moral and international campaign might be. Of course, it is still not possible to authority.We are acting within United Nations resolutions, say that, and we have never said that it would be and there is no doubt about the legal position. There possible to say that. Actually, even 1,000 boffins in a will be other situations in which people call for interventions think-tank, all working together feverishly with all the of various kinds, but on which there is no legal authority, information available to them, would still not have because the UN Security Council does not agree to act. known how long the Libya campaign might last. We In many of those instances, we will have to say that we will continue to work with my hon. Friend on improving can do nothing, because we do not have the legal or the Government’s strategic thinking, but however much international authority to act. International law is our we improve it, it will not be possible to say how long starting point, which must remain a key principle in the each military campaign will take. years ahead. 973 Africa and the Middle East29 JUNE 2011 Africa and the Middle East 974

Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Does my right fact that pressure from sanctions will intensify over the hon. Friend agree that, despite a generation of occupation coming months unless it is prepared to negotiate about by Syria and series of bloody incursions by Israel, its nuclear programme. Lebanon remains a potential force for good, with its All that I can say to my hon. Friend for the moment is developed civic society and its entrepreneurial spirit? that we agreed in the EU last month the designation of Does he further agree that one of the best ways to break 100 more individuals and entities, which will intensify the ambitions of the Tehran-Damascus axis is by fostering the sanctions. I have referred today to additional sanctions and encouraging democratic elements in Lebanon and on the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps commanders. weaning them away from Hezbollah and the Damascus We will continue to step up that pressure, but it will be agenda? peaceful and legitimate pressure.

Mr Hague: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Colonel draw attention to Lebanon’s key role in the region. It is, Gaddafi intends to fight to the death, and the Libyan of course, a tragedy that so much of its potential has people are sick to death of killing each other. In accordance not been fulfilled in recent years, often because of its with resolution 1973, will the Secretary of State at least neighbours’ policies, and he is right to draw attention to consider a ceasefire during which an election can occur, that. We certainly strongly support those people who internationally supervised by the Arab League, with a are working to strengthen democracy in Lebanon. One fall-back position of resumed conflict if intimidation of the things that that requires is the completion of the and violence corrupt the outcome, in order to get an work of the Special Tribunal for Lebanon, which the elected Government in Libya instead of another unelected United Kingdom continues to fund. regime, with hundreds of thousands more people being killed in the mean time? Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): My constituents and I are concerned about the degree of mission creep Mr Hague: There are several complications to the that has occurred in Libya. The mission has continued hon. Gentleman’s proposals. One is that a ceasefire has for longer, has cost more and has involved more people always been possible, if the regime meets the terms of dying than most of us expected at the beginning. Yet, the UN resolution and stops attacks on the civilian because we are in the air, we cannot intervene on the population in Libya. It has been open to the regime for ground to help women who are victims of rape used as a more than 40 years to have elections to determine who weapon of war. The right hon. Gentleman said in reply is in charge in Libya. Constructing an environment in to my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North which going back to armed conflict is a fall-back position West (Mr Robinson) that there would be an analysis at would make it rather difficult for the electoral process the end of the mission. Will that analysis consider ways to take place. It remains the case that for a political of preventing such situations from arising in future and process to succeed in Libya, Colonel Gaddafi must non-military means by which we can protect civilian leave power. That is how all the Libyans I saw in populations from despots? Benghazi regard the matter, and how the rest of the world regards it. Mr Hague: It is important to stress that we have used Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I warmly welcome non-military means as well. The UK has funded ships the Foreign Secretary’s wise words to the organisers of that have evacuated about 5,000 people from Misrata—that the proposed flotilla. At a time when the flow of shows the support that the UK Government have given— humanitarian aid has increased, yet terrorist attacks on thus taking them out of a danger zone. We have not Israel by Hamas have also increased, the flotilla would only been engaged in military action in Libya, but had be a terrible provocation to the state of Israel. A we not taken military action when we did, many thousands confrontation would certainly take place and talks would more people would have died in Benghazi and probably be postponed almost indefinitely. I urge my right hon. in Misrata afterwards. We are constrained by the UN Friend to approach the organisers of the flotilla directly resolutions, which relates to the point that I made to the to make them stop. hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) that we must stay within the legal limits of what is set Mr Hague: As I said earlier, I will make sure that our out in the UN resolution. We cannot do everything that views are clear to all involved. Provocations are not we might want to do to assist people, but I stress to the what we need in the middle east at the moment; equally, hon. Lady that there is a good deal of non-military disproportionate responses to provocations are not what help, as well as our military action. we need, either. We ask all concerned to respect those considerations. Our views will be made clear to all Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) concerned. (Con): I welcome my right hon. Friend’s remarks, particularly concerning Iran and its nuclear ambitions. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) What further actions or sanctions can he take to prevent (PC): Since the original vote in the House on the Iran from developing a nuclear weapons programme, mission in Libya, it is clear that the objectives have been which would undoubtedly lead to greater instability in updated to include regime change. Is it not time that we the middle east, and potentially to conflict? had a second debate and Division, so that those of us who have concerns about what is happening can place Mr Hague: No one can be sure whether sanctions will them on the record? of themselves prevent a nuclear programme, but last year, as we announced a succession of sanctions, the Mr Hague: I do not sense that that is the general view readiness of the regime in Tehran to negotiate increased, in the House. Our military mission in Libya continues at least for a time. The regime will have to reckon on the to be defined by the UN resolutions. If we were not 975 Africa and the Middle East29 JUNE 2011 Africa and the Middle East 976

[Mr Hague] do with our international partners to ensure that Hamas accepts the Quartet principles and comes to the negotiating undertaking any and all of the military actions that we table? are, Colonel Gaddafi would be able to intensify his campaign of killing and harassing the population of Mr Hague: We stand firm with the Quartet. I made it Libya. It is entirely in accordance with the vote of this clear in my earlier remarks what we expect of the House in March and with UN Security Council resolution Palestinian Authority. We look to the newly formed 1973 that we are doing what we are doing in Libya. I do Palestinian Authority, when it emerges, to live up to the not therefore consider that it requires a fresh vote in the principles that I stated in answer to earlier questions. In House. the mean time, by failing to accept or even move towards the Quartet principles, Hamas remains a proscribed organisation that damages prospects of peace in the Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I middle east rather than advancing them. welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement. In light of the thousands of lives that have been lost in Syria, the MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN French Foreign Minister has stated that President Assad’s position has become illegitimate. How far are we from The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD acquainted reaching the same decision? the House that he had a Message from Her Majesty the Queen to this House, signed by Her Majesty’s own hand. Mr Hague: President Assad must reform or step Her Majesty requests that consideration should be aside. If we are to maintain international unity of given by the House of Commons to the provision made by pressure on Syria, we must be careful in how we phrase Parliament for the financial support of Her Majesty and such things. That is the right position for the United other members of the Royal Household, and to allowing Kingdom to take, particularly as a Security Council for the continuation of support in the reigns of Her resolution is still on the table, which we would like to successors. push forward if the situation in Syria continues to be so Her Majesty desires that the hereditary revenues of the dire. I am confident that we have taken the right position. Crown, for any period for which support is provided to any of Her successors, should be at the disposal of the Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): We all want a House of Commons. negotiated settlement to the middle east conflict, but In commending these matters to Her faithful Commons, given that Hamas continues to attack Israel and to Her Majesty relies on their attachment to Her person and manipulate and undermine any direct negotiations between family to adopt such measures as may be suitable for the Israel and the Palestinian Authority, what more can we occasion. 977 29 JUNE 2011 Points of Order 978

Points of Order it did not confirm that on Monday or on any other occasion, but announced it on a website a couple of 1.38 pm hours ago, following media inquiries. Is that a satisfactory way for the Home Secretary to The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George behave? She seems more interested in responding to the Young): On a point of order, last Thursday at business Daily Mail than to the House, and incapable of coming questions, I announced to the House that the first here to make a statement or, indeed, answering telephone business tomorrow, Thursday 30 June, would be calls from Members this morning who were trying to consideration of a motion for a resolution on which a ascertain Mr Salah’s exact status. He was due here this Bill is to be brought in. Following what you have just evening to address a meeting upstairs in one of the said, Mr Speaker, I inform the House that hon. Members Committee Rooms to promote dialogue and peace to will have the opportunity to debate Her Majesty’s Gracious bring about a resolution of the middle east conflict. Message at tomorrow’s business. Surely the House deserves a statement on the matter at Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Leader of the House the very least. for what he has said, which will have been heard by Mr Speaker: I shall take a further point of order on colleagues. the subject and then respond to them all. Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): On a point of order, David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Further to Mr Speaker. On Monday, the case of Raed Salah was that point of order, Mr Speaker. If the Home Secretary brought up in the House. Yesterday, I brought it up as a is to come here to make a statement, could we find out point of order and, indeed, there have been questions whether the ability of the racist and homophobic individual about it in the House today. Whatever the rights and whom we are discussing to enter the UK was in any way wrongs, the man was said by the media to have been aided by the fact that he was apparently getting a warm excluded, and we find today that he had been excluded, welcome from some Labour Members? but none the less came into the country—apparently almost strolling through. Mr Speaker: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not Yesterday, I asked for a statement from the Home take it amiss if I say that that last series of observations Secretary to allow hon. Members to question her about represented not a point of order, but a point of frustration, what was happening in the case. We now find through a propaganda or an expression of views. Anyway, he has press release on the Home Office website that, although said his piece, and we are grateful to him. the Home Secretary does not normally comment on Let me try to respond to the two points of order that individual cases, she has done so in this case. She were raised from the Opposition side. The Home Secretary confirms that Raed Salah was excluded but that he informed me late last night that Sheikh Raed Salah has managed to enter the UK. He has now been detained, been arrested with a view to deportation on the ground and the UK Border Agency is making arrangements to that his presence is not conducive to the public good. remove him. She announced through the press release Accordingly, I instructed the Serjeant at Arms that he that a full investigation is taking place into how he was should not be admitted to the parliamentary estate. I able to enter. know that Members will not expect me to discuss issues I do not know whether you have had any message of security and access any further on the Floor of the from the Home Secretary, Mr Speaker, but instead of House—I will not do that. announcing through a press release that a full investigation However, in response to the hon. Members for Gedling will take place into the matter, she should have come to (Vernon Coaker) and for Islington North let me say the House to make a statement so that hon. Members of that if the Home Secretary wishes to make an oral all parties could question her about the rights and statement to the House, she is perfectly at liberty to do wrongs of the case and what actually happened. Have so. That is a choice for her, and she will have heard the you had any indication from the Home Secretary of points that have been made. whether she intends to come to the House, or to continue to make announcements through the press? Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The media were Mr Speaker: Before I respond to the point of order, I briefed this morning that the Deputy Prime Minister shall take that of the hon. Member for Islington North was announcing to a conference in Birmingham a significant (Jeremy Corbyn). policy change on business rates in local councils. Mr Speaker, you have said that the Government should Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Further to explain and answer first to Parliament, so can you tell that point of order, Mr Speaker. Raed Salah entered us whether the Secretary of State for Communities and this country four days ago without any problem. He has Local Government intends to come to the House to do been here for four days and he spoke at a public meeting just that on a major policy change on local government in Conway hall on Monday evening, which was apparently finance? attended by immigration officers who did not recognise him even though he spoke from the platform. I also Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her understand that he met Members yesterday and briefed point of order and for giving me notice that she intended them on the situation. This man is an Israeli citizen, to raise it. However, I have not been informed of any who has no restrictions on his life or activities in Israel. ministerial statement today on the matter. Perhaps it is Indeed, he addressed a public meeting at Tel Aviv worth emphasising that if a new policy or a change in university only last week. Following complaints in the existing policy is to be announced, one would ordinarily Daily Mail, the Home Office seems latterly to have hope that the House would hear it first. I am not decided that there was a travel ban on him, even though familiar with the detail of that particular matter, and 979 Points of Order29 JUNE 2011 Points of Order 980

[Mr Speaker] Mr Speaker: The short answer to the hon. Gentleman is that the Minister has not indicated to me any intention therefore I cannot say whether it should so qualify, but to make a statement on the matter. However, until a the general requirement is very clear. The Deputy Prime very few moments ago, the Leader of the House was in Minister will be aware of it and the Leader of the his place, and will have heard the start of the point of House has regularly heard it and communicated it to order. I imagine that the Deputy Leader of the House ministerial colleagues. I am sure that the hon. Lady will will communicate the rest of it to him. My advice to the find other ways in which to pursue the matter. hon. Gentleman, in view of the pressing timetable, is that he might wish to raise the matter at business Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): questions, if he can catch my eye, and secure some sort Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Members of of clarificatory response from the Leader of the House. the Cabinet are developing a track record for making He has to wait fewer than 24 hours for his opportunity. statements to the press in the morning, with a Minister coming to the House in the afternoon. I drew your Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): On a point of order, attention to the press conference that the Prime Minister Mr Speaker. I recently became aware that recently the held about the national health service before the statement Liberal Democrats, on a day when they should have in the House. Last week, before the Lord Chancellor’s been in Parliament representing their constituents, statement about changes in sentencing and other matters, decided to have an away-day in my constituency, the Prime Minister again held a press conference before and stayed there overnight; I certainly commend the House met and told the public what the Secretary of them for their taste. I cannot claim to be the most State later told the House of Commons. My hon. assiduous in this regard myself because I have occasionally Friends on the Front Bench have provided two further forgotten to inform a colleague that I have been in their examples. Is it not intolerable that the Prime Minister constituency, but it is, I am sure you would agree, rare and the Government show continuous contempt for the that 50 MPs would forget to inform a colleague that House of Commons? they were engaging in political activity in somebody Mr Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman is a very else’s constituency. Could you give any guidance as to experienced Member. I think that I am right in saying what is expected of hon. Members when visiting other that it is 41 years 11 days since he was elected to the people’s constituencies? House. He has seen a lot. He will understand that the Chair must consider those matters on a case-by-case Mr Speaker: I think it was what would be characterised basis in that some cases are egregious and others are by the party concerned as an official visit to the hon. not. I recall the right hon. Gentleman’s previous point Gentleman’s constituency; in other words, it is not a of order. He might recall—if not, I shall tell him—my private activity, and although I do not think it would be response to the shadow Leader of the House last week. reasonable for the hon. Gentleman to expect I said that statements should be made first to the House 50 communications from individual Members who would and that I was perturbed by a growing practice of a be attending that gathering, I do think it is reasonable written ministerial statement followed by a press conference, for the hon. Gentleman to expect to be informed in and, only after that, an oral statement to the House. I advance by a representative of that party, so I hope that hoped that that practice would be nipped in the bud. On the self-styled voice of Shipley is reassured by my that occasion, I also made the point, the significance of response to his point of order. which will not escape the right hon. Gentleman or the House, that if that unfortunate and inappropriate practice Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) persisted, there would be mechanisms available to Members (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It has emerged who wished to allocate a considerable amount of this afternoon that the police were informed in the last parliamentary time on a particular day to the study of few days that a court judgment means that the current the matter of urgency, and that that would cause all operation of police bail, which has operated since 1986, sorts of problems with programming Government business, has now been thrown up into the air. I have spoken to which I know the Leader of the House would not want the West Yorkshire chief constable within the last half to encounter. I hope that that is clear to the right hon. hour, who says he may now not be able to recall thousands Gentleman and the House. of suspects who are currently on police bail, and that it is possible that some emergency action or emergency Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): On a legislation may be needed. We stand ready to discuss point of order, Mr Speaker. Last year, the Government any emergency legislation that may be needed to help announced the termination of the housing market renewal the police do their business and carry on with the programme, depriving depressed communities of hope important work that they do, but have you been informed for the future. Here and subsequently in another place, by the Home Secretary that this is an urgent issue, and Ministers said that application can be made to the that there may be a need for a statement to the House? regional growth fund. However, only this week, the chair of the independent evaluation panel, Lord Heseltine Mr Speaker: I have not been so informed, and it is said: not strictly a point of order, although it is a point of “There is no way in which we are doing housing renewal” very serious and pressing concern to the right hon. or anything of that sort. We are 48 hours away from the Lady and to others, and that concern will have been deadline for regional growth fund bids. Has the Minister heard by Members on the Treasury Bench. If she judges for Housing and Local Government indicated his intention it necessary, it might be a subject to which, if she is to come to the House and clear up the confusion? dissatisfied with it, she will want to return before long. 981 29 JUNE 2011 Adoption (Leave, Pay and Allowance 982 Arrangements) Adoption (Leave, Pay and Allowance But statutory entitlements to adoption pay and leave Arrangements) are less than those for maternity pay and leave. The reasons for the differences were not specifically addressed Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order in Committee debates. The Government arguably justify No. 23) the differences on the ground of health, safety and welfare of women who have given birth, but adoptive Mr Speaker: We come now to the 10-minute rule parents face great challenges too in welcoming a new motion, for which the hon. Member for Walsall South member of their family. They need time and support to (Valerie Vaz) has been patiently waiting. bond with their child, and to understand the sometimes difficult background of their new child. 1.52 pm My Bill asks for the following. First, equal eligibility Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Thank you, for maternity and adoption leave. Adoptive parents Mr Speaker. Follow that, as they say in all the best should be entitled to adoption leave irrespective of music halls. length of service, as are pregnant women. Pregnant women are entitled to a total of 52 weeks’ maternity I beg to move, leave, irrespective of their length of service—26 weeks’ That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision to ordinary maternity leave and 26 weeks’additional maternity equalise leave, pay and allowance arrangements for adoptive parents with those of parents whose children are born to them; to leave. The statutory entitlement for adoptive parents is equalise eligibility for adoption leave and pay with that of maternity also 52 weeks, but they must have completed 26 weeks’ leave and pay; to equalise the rates of pay for the first six weeks of continuous service with their employer. maternity leave and adoption leave; to equalise the entitlement to allowances for self-employed adopters and self-employed mothers; Secondly, my Bill asks for equal rates of pay for the and for connected purposes. first six weeks of adoption and maternity leave. Statutory I want to set out the current position, what these maternity pay is paid at 90% of the weekly average provisions would do and why the Bill is important. It all earnings for six weeks, and then the lower rate of started in April this year, when I attended the annual statutory maternity pay or 90% of average earnings, delegates’ meeting of the Union of Shop, Distributive whichever is the lower. But statutory adoption pay is and Allied Workers and heard the impassioned speeches paid at the lower rate throughout the 39 weeks of from delegates who asked for adoptive parents to be statutory adoption pay. given the same statutory rights as parents who have Thirdly, self-employed adopters should be eligible for children born to them. I thank Neil Clarkson of USDAW a statutory allowance equivalent to maternity allowance. and Adoption UK for their help with the background Self-employed adoptive mothers cannot access the information, and of course the Library. equivalent of maternity allowance available to self-employed The Bill is not about who can adopt and why; it is biological mothers. about how adopters are treated in relation to statutory pay and leave when they do. If they were treated equally, What do some employers do now? Some employers perhaps more would come forward. The issues in my have their own contractual policies, which make the Bill, however, have been effectively overlooked, falling entitlements more equal. Many civil service departments through the gap between the Department for Education and agencies offer enhanced maternity leave and pay and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, provision. But as Adoption UK has found out, many but I am pleased that the Government are currently employers enhance maternity but not adoption looking at adoption, and the Under-Secretary of State packages, leading to double discrimination. I can give for Education, the hon. Member for East Worthing and some examples. Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who has responsibility for At the Department for Work and Pensions, the eligibility children and families, has assembled a ministerial advisory for 52 weeks of adoption and maternity leave is equalised, group. I hope it will consider the measures in the Bill as as are levels of contractual maternity and adoption part of its discussions. leave for employees with one year’s service. However, There also need to be improvements in the support there is still a difference in the rate of pay for the first six available for adoptive parents. That could be achieved weeks for those on the statutory package. At BIS, by improving training and awareness for teachers, contractual adoption and maternity entitlements appear psychologists, paediatricians, social workers and health to be equalised: 52 weeks’ adoption leave and maternity visitors. As some adopters have found, it is important leave are both entitlements regardless of the length of that there is a greater awareness among professionals of service. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office offers a the particular challenges faced by these children and statutory package, or contractual maternity/adoption their families. pay, on full salary during 26 weeks’ ordinary maternity/ Briefly, the statutory background is as follows. It was adoption leave, subject to certain conditions including a only in 1999 that adopting parents in the UK had a year’s service. However, on the parliamentary estate, statutory right to any leave to care for their children. instead of matching the contractual maternity arrangements The Employment Act 2002 and subsequent regulations of six months on full pay, contractual adoption pay introduced a statutory right to paid adoption leave gives only two weeks on full pay. In an answer to me, the analogous to statutory maternity pay and maternity Department for Education says: leave. From April 2003, adopting parents were also “All staff regardless of the length of service or appointment entitled to a period of paid adoption leave when the status are eligible for 28 weeks of maternity or adoption leave on child is first placed with a family. The Work and Families full pay. All staff have the option to follow that with 24 weeks of Act 2006 extended statutory adoption pay to 39 weeks unpaid maternity or adoption leave.”—[Official Report,28June from April 2007. 2011; Vol. 530, c. 758W.] 983 Adoption (Leave, Pay and Allowance 29 JUNE 2011 984 Arrangements) [Valerie Vaz] Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill What does the private sector do? I have heard from the John Lewis Partnership, which says that the eligibility [Relevant documents: The Third Report from the Justice for adoption leave still requires 26 weeks’ service. But it Committee, Government’s proposed reform of legal aid, says: HC 681, and the Government response, Cm 8111.] “After a qualifying period of two years, we top up adoption Second Reading pay to the partner’s contractual rate of pay for the first 14 weeks. We take exactly the same approach with maternity leave.” Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Before I call The measures in the Bill are important, because it the Lord Chancellor, I should say that this Second would show that society values adopters. There is a Reading debate is well subscribed. There is an eight-minute financial and social cost benefit of getting children out limit on Back-Bench contributions. I ask Front Benchers of care. In the 2009-10 financial year, around £3 billion from both sides to use their restraint, so that more Back was spent on looked-after children. That is a gross Benchers can speak. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] I figure of £37,000 per child. The sad fact is that there are have never said anything so popular in my life. 64,400 children in local authority care in England. Only Given the number who have subscribed, I ask Members 3,200 were adopted during the year to 31 March 2010. not to approach the Chair to ask where they are on the In conclusion, we should recognise and reward adopters, list; those who have approached or written to Mr Speaker and show them that they are valued as parents, by will be on the list. equalising their entitlements to support. That would support the Government’s aim of increasing the number 2.3 pm of adopters. The legislative changes are minor and the The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice financial costs are minimal, and they are far outweighed (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I beg to move, That the Bill be by the benefits, in both the short and long terms. The now read a Second time. changes that the legislation would make to the lives of I shall try to observe your strictures, Mr Deputy adoptive parents would enable them to give their children Speaker, but this is a very large piece of legislation; I the best start in their vital first year. Local authorities shall probably have to restrict the number of times I and adoption agencies placing children expect the new give way to interventions. parents to take time off work of up to one year, and I am determined to reform the justice system in this adoptive parents should be compensated in the way that country. Keeping the public safe, ensuring that those birth parents are. who break the law face the consequences and providing Perhaps the next child who is adopted and given a swift, cost-effective access to justice are fundamental home will become the next Steve Jobs—inventor of the responsibilities of the state towards its citizens. Yet the iPad, beloved of many Members—or the next KT Tunstall, last 13 years of government have left us a system whose the brilliant singer-songwriter; both those people were cost and scale have exploded and whose failings can no adopted. As Pablo Casals said: longer be tolerated. “Each child is unique; each child is a marvel. We must all work In the area of criminal justice, more than 20 new Acts hard to make the world worthy of its children.” of Parliament, thousands of new criminal offences and I am sure that the whole House agrees with that sentiment. a huge increase in the prison population cannot mask I commend the Bill to the House. very deep flaws in the system. Briefly, our sentencing Question put and agreed to. framework is a mess of byzantine complexity that even trained lawyers and judges—never mind the general Ordered, public—find confusing. That Valerie Vaz, Ann Coffey, Julie Elliott, Yvonne Our punishments do not work. Community sentences Fovargue, Richard Harrington, Keith Vaz, Julie Hilling, are weak, asking little of offenders, and prisons have Margaret Hodge, Grahame M. Morris and Fiona become so crowded that there is no space for governors O’Donnell present the Bill. to enforce regimes of meaningful work or reparation. Valerie Vaz accordingly presented the Bill. Far too many prisoners are left idle in their cells, often Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on on drugs. For that model, the taxpayer has the privilege 20 January 2012 and to be printed (Bill 212). of paying out an extraordinary sum—£44,000 per prison place per year. I have just been assured that the Ritz is even more expensive, so I slightly exaggerated, but £44,000 per prison place per year is enough to pay the salaries of two newly qualified nurses or teachers. Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab) rose— Mr Clarke: I give way to my predecessor. Mr Straw: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Lord Chancellor. We have heard about this alleged litany of failures. When the right hon. and learned Gentleman was Home Secretary, crime was at a post-war peak on both the measures that the Prime Minister used to discuss crime at questions earlier today. Since then, burglaries have dropped by 70%, thefts by 50%, and crime overall by 50%. Is the fact that the Lord 985 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 986 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Chancellor never, ever refers to the outcomes of our Chris Leslie rose— record due to the fact that that happened mainly under us or the fact that the process started under his successor, Joan Ruddock rose— Michael Howard? Mr Clarke: I give way to the hon. Member for Mr Clarke: The idea that I set off a crime wave when Nottingham East (Chris Leslie). I was Home Secretary is a charge that I will answer on some other occasion, frankly. As far as the decline in Chris Leslie: I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor. crime is concerned, the biggest decline has been in theft Many victims of crime will be shocked at his proposals because car manufacturers made cars more secure. The to limit the freedom of judges to remand a defendant in courts used to be full of taking and driving away custody. Why is he limiting and fettering the ability of offences, but are no longer because it is more difficult to judges to put those defendants on remand? take the cars. The fall in burglary coincided with an economic Mr Clarke: I was going to argue this later; I will try to boom — one of the consequences that came from it. avoid repeating myself. I cannot understand why people The 20-plus Bills that the right hon. Gentleman and his are so incensed that people who are not going to be sent predecessors brought before the House—more than one to prison might not be kept in prison awaiting trial. criminal justice Bill a year—and the countless changes Every year, 16,000 people are refused bail, kept in in sentences filled up the prisons, but in my opinion had prison, convicted and immediately given bail. A quarter no provable, demonstrable effect at all on the levels of of all the people kept in custody are released when they crime in this country. come up for trial. I shall come back to the matter, although I shall try to avoid repeating the same arguments. Mr Straw rose— It seems to me that unless one is trying to fill up the prisons with people, that is one of the more obvious Mr Clarke: The right hon. Gentleman is an ex-Front steps we can take. If they are not going to justify Bencher. I will give way to him later, but I should imprisonment when they get to trial, it seems to me observe the strictures of Mr Deputy Speaker, although pointless to refuse them bail, except in the case of I enjoy debating with the right hon. Gentleman. I domestic violence cases, where we have agreed to make should move on a little further into my speech. an exception because we cannot grant bail to someone As the right hon. Gentleman has heard me say before, who is going back to live with the alleged victim of the reoffending rates are a national scandal; that is why the domestic violence. system is failing. Half of offenders—49%—have been reconvicted, in part because the system is not tackling David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): The Secretary the underlying causes of their criminality such as drug of State will be aware that many people are remanded abuse, poor mental health and inadequate skills. The on bail because they refuse to turn up to court, causing consequence of that failure is new victims of crime the taxpayer all sorts of expense. Can he assure us that every day. Despite improvement, victims and witnesses even if the crime committed is not one that would too often still get treated as an after-thought, not a normally result in a jail sentence, people who consistently central concern of justice. That is why we need intelligent, refuse to turn up to court will be remanded in custody? radical reform of the criminal justice system to protect and serve the needs of law-abiding members of society. Mr Clarke: Without fettering judicial discretion, I think I can give that assurance. There are all sorts of Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Will grounds on which bail can be refused. We are saying the Lord Chancellor give way? that where it is likely that a person will not anyway be imprisoned when they come up for trial, they should Mr Clarke: I will later, but let me deal with what we not be refused bail. are having to tackle in civil justice. The sad truth is that it, too, has serious weaknesses. Courts should be accessible Mr Straw: Will the Secretary of State give way? and efficient, but generally turned to as a place of last resort, not a first choice. But we have a litigious society and far too many cases go down the court route Mr Clarke: No, I am sorry. I respect the right hon. unnecessarily. Last year, more than three quarters of Gentleman, but I must move on. claims in the civil system set down to proceed to trial I have said that ordinary citizens find the civil law a were settled before the trial took place. Many of those rather nightmarish experience when they resort to it. cases might have been resolved earlier, with different Thanks to the present scope of legal aid and the way in approaches aimed at simpler dispute resolution. Ordinary which the no-win, no-fee system operates, many people citizens find the law an expensive, daunting nightmare, and, in particular, many small businesses live in fear of not a public service. legal action. I accept that access to justice for the protection of fundamental rights is vital for a democratic Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): Will the society—something on which I will not compromise. Lord Chancellor give way? However, our current legal aid system can encourage people to bring their problems before the courts when Mr Clarke: I will in a second. Courts are slow and the basic problem is not a legal one and would be better burdened by high costs and bureaucratic processes and dealt with in other ways. The scope of legal aid has procedures. For example, the average length of a public expanded too far. It cannot be right, for example, that family law case in 1989 was 12 weeks; by 2010, it stood the taxpayer is forced to pay for legal advice to foreign at 53 weeks, with similar cases taking four times as long students whose visa applications are turned down. There as they used to. are many other examples. 987 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 988 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Kenneth Clarke] and it is quite difficult to decide whether to proceed with them, so we are making special arrangements, Our legal aid system also faces a completely unignorable particularly for the expensive medical reports that have problem of affordability. I have listened to arguments in to be obtained before a case can properly be decided on. the media today challenging that, but we have by far the We are making arrangements to make the insurance most expensive system in the world, after Northern reimbursable in those cases. I would also like to see a Ireland, where I am sure the same problem will be system developed by the NHS litigation authority and tackled. It costs £39 per head of population in this the best of the practitioners to exchange expert medical country, each year, compared with £8 in, for example, reports at a very early stage, so that we can avoid New Zealand, which has a similar system of law. In any unnecessary litigation about whether a tragic disaster to circumstances our system would need reform; in the a newborn baby was actually a natural tragedy or the country’s current financial crisis reform is imperative. result of negligence, and so that such cases need not I have some advice for Labour Members. I do not drag on for the many years that they can take to go usually give gratuitous advice, but I think the Labour through the courts. I accept that that is a special case, party is facing one of the problems that we faced in and we considered it carefully during the consultation. 1997. It should find the courage to admit that it made We made quite a lot of changes during the consultation, some mistakes and left some things in a mess. It has some of which were referred to dramatically in outside been acknowledged by my opposite number, the right comment. hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), that, on Labour’s watch: Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con) rose— “Playing tough in order not to look soft made it harder to focus on what is effective”— Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab) rose— wise words. I thought, when we set off on this process of consultation, I had the widespread support of many Mr Clarke: I shall take two last interventions, and Opposition Members. I ask the right hon. Gentleman then I really must move on. to reflect on the way in which he started his consideration before he gets on with the rest of the debate. Nicky Morgan: I hear what the Secretary of State In fact, when Labour was in office, its strategy for our says about the failure of the last Government to tackle prisons and our courts was legislative incontinence the burgeoning legal aid system. Did they not also fail combined with kneejerk populism. On prisons, the Labour to tackle the complexity of other departmental work Government made the mistake of being unable to make that our citizens advice bureaux, which do such valuable proper provision for the demand for places that they work, help with; for example, Department for Work stimulated. Overcrowding devoured the very budgets and Pensions forms? The Government’s response hints that should have been used productively to cut reoffending at a review of some of the other parts of legal aid which and improve public safety in a lasting way. What was will inevitably have to be cut. Will the Secretary of State the final result that we all remember? They had to give more detail about that review and about whether reduce the release point from two thirds to halfway the burden will be shared across Departments? through the sentence. They then had to resort to the financial chicanery of keeping the cost of building Mr Clarke: Yes, I will. I try to avoid jumping from prisons off the balance sheet—the so-called Carter prisons. subject to subject, because it is such an enormous Bill, Finally—the ultimate absurdity—they had to let out but I promise my hon. Friend that I shall return to the 80,000 prisoners early, before the end of their sentence, whole question of alternative forms of advice and the to offset the cost of the allegedly tougher sentences that CABs, and make an announcement at a later stage in they had imposed. That is why we need reform now—to the proceedings on the Bill. reverse that nonsense. On wider justice matters, the Labour Government Bridget Phillipson: Another aspect of the changes to proved little better at getting a grip. They have had legal aid is the removal of legal aid from women applying 30 consultations on legal aid since 2006; they did not for indefinite leave to remain under the domestic violence act decisively, put the system on a sustainable footing or rule. In an answer to a parliamentary question, the address the litigiousness to which its excessively widely Minister for Immigration reported that only 710 women available funding contributed. were granted that, so we are not talking about a considerable number, but they are very vulnerable individuals. Will the Secretary of State think again on that aspect of his Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): My right proposals? hon. and learned Friend has had a consultation, to which I hope he has listened, particularly in respect of Mr Clarke: I think that we have responded to that to criminal negligence affecting children with multiple injuries some extent. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, that may have arisen from birth. It is not clear to me yet my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon that the Government have found a way of ensuring that (Mr Djanogly), will wind up the debate, and he will that very deserving and small group of people will have have time to consider the matter. access to justice and to the settlements that they need. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): And so will others. Mr Clarke: We have addressed clinical negligence, a large part of which is now conducted on a no-win, Mr Clarke: Indeed. Ministers have talked about the no-fee basis. That is the way we should proceed. matter and considered it carefully, and I leave it to my Clinical negligence cases of the kind to which the hon. Friend to give an authoritative reply in his winding-up right hon. Gentleman refers are especially expensive speech. 989 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 990 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill I hope that I have already indicated that the mess that hon. Gentleman was a member, tried to reform it in we have inherited requires a bold, sustained and principled 2008, because it was already out of control. I proposed effort, not salami slicing and half-measures. The Bill is further reforms in the Green Paper, and a very large one part of the balanced package of reforms that is number of people in the criminal justice system said needed. Unusually, I made a full statement to the House that the legislation should be repealed. Last week, I last week on the subject, and it was debated for one and quoted David Thomas, the author of “Thomas on a half hours, so I do not propose to repeat in depth Sentencing”, who described the whole thing as an what I said then. Let me turn to the inevitable controversy unmitigated disaster. I will look into the right hon. that any measures on criminal sentencing are bound to Gentleman’s suggestion to see whether some aspects of provoke. It is a natural part of contemporary political the Northern Irish system might be appropriate. debate to simplify the subject and to make extremes out After punishment and reparation comes rehabilitation of it all. I am resigned to the fact that on law and order to reduce reoffending, which is at the core of our issues above all there is a tendency to polarise, and to process of reform. Sentences must be punitive and frame reforms as either dry and tough, or wet, soft and reformative. The Bill will help to ensure that more liberal. The truth is somewhere in between. The aim of offenders with drugs, alcohol or mental health problems the measures I proposed was to consult on a balanced are addressed and receive treatment at the earliest package, and it remains so. opportunity.This complicates our efforts— The measures address the weaknesses that we inherited. For serious crime, the public must have confidence in Chris Bryant: Complicates? the system of effective punishment and just retribution, so my reforms include, for example, introducing a 40-hour Mr Clarke: Complements—it might do both, but I working week across the prison estate to introduce hope it will complement our efforts to tackle drugs in productive hard work into prisons in place of enforced prison. idleness. Drugs are widely available in prisons, but we shall The Bill toughens community sentences by allowing start by introducing drug-free wings. My single most courts to curfew offenders for longer—16 hours a day radical proposal on rehabilitation is a non-legislative for up to 12 months—and to ban them from going change to introduce a fundamental shift in how we abroad. As I signalled last week, we intend to introduce approach the issue by paying by results to unlock private measures to clarify householders’ rights of defence and capital, benefit from the innovation of the voluntary to consult on criminalising squatting. sector and get the whole system pulling in the same direction. We will pay providers a return on their ethical The Bill creates a new offence of possessing a knife to investment for what works in the public interest: turning threaten or endanger a person, with a prison sentence criminals into ex-criminals should be an object of the of at least six months for over-18s to send a clear system. message to those who possess a knife to threaten others. We are conducting a review with the intention of Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I am interested replacing the discredited sentence whereby people are in the Secretary of State’s comments on the number of locked up for an undetermined and indefinite time—the people in our prisons who, unfortunately, suffer from so-called imprisonment for public protection—with a mental illness and need support and treatment, which is tough determinate sentencing regime. I propose to deliver often inadequate. Will he recognise the greater problem: a system that offers better reparation to victims. The that many people who need support with mental illness Bill will replace and augment the Prisoners’ Earnings or who are experiencing mental health crises do not get Act 1996, which the previous Government never it, and there are insufficient resources and insufficient implemented—it was a Conservative measure. This will understanding among the police and others that the allow us to deduct wages from prisoners so that instead real cause of minor offences often is mental illness and of their just being a drain on the system we can deduct nothing else. We need a more sympathetic, supportive money to help to pay for services for the victims of and therapeutic approach to dealing with these poor, crime. The Bill places a positive obligation on courts to unfortunate people. make offenders pay compensation directly to victims. Mr Clarke: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): State for Health agrees with the hon. Gentleman and The Lord Chancellor mentions the review of indeterminate me. My ministerial team and my right hon. Friend’s sentences. My concern is that he will reach the wrong ministerial team have been holding discussions. My conclusion. When he conducts his review will he look at right hon. Friend has a strategy for trying to improve experience in Northern Ireland, where extended and mental health services to the population as a whole. As indeterminate sentences have been available since 2008 but part of that we are addressing what can be done to help where, crucially, the assessment of danger is left in the the mentally ill who find themselves in prison. Some of hands of judges? It is a smaller system, but in the three them should be diverted from the criminal justice system years since its introduction there have been only 63 altogether; some can be better treated in secure extended sentences and seven indeterminate sentences. accommodation in the national health service; and many Public safety has been combined with manageable numbers: can be treated better than they are at present when will he look at that experience? being incarcerated in prison is not suitable. I assure the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend and I share Mr Clarke: We are having a review, so I will look at his concern. that. Legislation was enacted in 2003, in the belief that Underpinning punishment, reparation and rehabilitation a few hundred people might be affected. It commenced is what might be called system reform—simplification, in 2005. The previous Government, of whom the right restoration of discretion to judges and the relief of 991 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 992 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Kenneth Clarke] litigation from first principles. Our priority is cases where people’s life or liberty is at stake, where they are unnecessary pressures on the system. At the same time at risk of serious physical harm or immediate loss of we must take a more robust approach to costs in the their home or where their children may be taken into system, including that of prison. We have already shown care. After our reforms, legal aid will routinely be that through competition it is possible to get prison available in 25 areas, including for criminal cases, for costs down while improving service quality. Key measures most judicial review proceedings, for private family law in the Bill include reforming the use of remand. I dealt cases involving domestic violence, child abuse and child with this a moment ago. I have told the House that abduction, for community care, for debt where the preventing reoffending is the central idea of my reforms. home is at immediate risk, for mental health cases and One of the main barriers to doing things in the past few for cases concerning special educational needs. We modified years has been the fact that the prisons have been our original proposals in response to consultation, listening clogged up, sometimes with people who do not need to carefully to the thousands of responses that we received. be there at all. I will not repeat the arguments that I Legal aid will no longer be routinely available in made a moment ago that give rise to the part of the Bill 13 areas, including most private family law cases, clinical that restricts the power of courts to remand those who negligence cases, non-discrimination employment cases, have no reasonable prospect of receiving a custodial immigration cases, some debt and housing issues, some sentence, with the exception that I have already described education cases and welfare benefits cases. of cases of domestic violence. Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): How Mr Straw: In answer to the hon. Member for Monmouth does the Lord Chancellor square what he is saying with (David T.C. Davies) the Secretary of State said that what Baroness Hale of the Supreme Court has said where a defendant failed to return to court on time, the about this being a ludicrous Bill and how these provisions court would still be able to remand him in custody so will disproportionately affect the most vulnerable in that he could get to court. The Secretary of State clearly society, particularly people from ethnic minorities? spoke in error, because if he looks at page 166 of his own Bill he will see that paragraph (5) to schedule 10 Mr Clarke: I have always had a high regard for makes it absolutely clear that even where a defendant Baroness Hale, who is a very distinguished lawyer, and I has failed to surrender to bail and has been arrested he have heard of her opinions. I shall have to study them cannot be detained in custody to appear in court unless and perhaps even meet her to discuss them, because I there is a real prospect of his subsequently being sentenced am surprised by her response. Where we started from to imprisonment. How will the public be made safer or was ensuring that we did not damage access to justice witnesses protected by that? for vulnerable people in matters of such importance that society as a whole would want to be sure that they Mr Clarke: I will address the extent to which we were protected. Either she has misunderstood the effect retain discretion, as determined under the bail Acts, of our proposals or why we are doing it. We have to get according to which bail is granted or refused. In 2010, back to spending an affordable amount of money on more than 16,000 people were in custody but were paying for things that the taxpayer should actually pay released when they appeared for trial and either pleaded for to defend the vulnerable. We all start as lawyers, let guilty or were convicted. Continuing a system whereby alone as citizens, with a slight bias in favour of legal aid people are refused bail when everyone knows that they because everyone is used to doing it, but the scale of will not be imprisoned if convicted is a very wasteful legal aid has expanded, its scope is too wide and it needs use of a very expensive place in our prison system. to be reformed.

Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): Someone who breaches Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I am bail commits a criminal offence and can therefore, and grateful to the Lord Chancellor for saying that legal aid usually does, receive a custodial sentence, especially if will be available to defend the vulnerable. I declare an they did not attend court when they should have. interest as one who has been a duty solicitor in the police station. I would like him to consult carefully Mr Clarke: I am grateful. My hon. Friend has been in about the practical implementation of proposals to practice much more recently than the right hon. Member limit legal aid for advice and assistance in police stations, for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) or I have. We will doubtless given that his officials no doubt bear the scars of continue to study this after the debate. previous implementations that became bureaucratic The sentencing reforms are balanced. Again, I shall nightmares. Losing the benefit of the informed legal quote the words of my shadow, the right hon. Member advice that one needs in the police station can lead to for Tooting, who when I first published them in the inefficient justice. Green Paper described them as Mr Clarke: We will look at that and consider it “a perfectly sensible vision for a sentencing policy”, carefully as we proceed. At the moment, the Bill replicates and they will in my view achieve a very significant a provision taken from an earlier Bill by the Labour transformation. party. It appears to give a power to take away the right That brings me to the rest of the Bill covering legal to legal aid. It appears to give a power to take away aid and provision on litigation and funding. No access to legal advice in the police station. The last Government look to tackle legal aid lightly, but the Government legislated to do that but never did it. We system as it stands is obviously unaffordable. Labour have no current intentions of doing it. We will consider had 30 goes at fixing it between 2006 and the end of the issue and no doubt my hon. Friend or others will their period in office and we have sought to go back and return to it in Committee. I realise that there has been think about what the taxpayer should pay for by way of some concern. 993 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 994 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): At the Few of these are easy choices, but they often involve annual general meeting of Liberty earlier this month, disputes about financial issues rather than life and the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden liberty. It is sensible to give such things as financial (Mr Davis) said that the Government should reconsider disputes a lower relative priority. It is sensible, too, to their plans to remove certain categories of social welfare address areas that the public consider unreasonable. law, at least for a period while Government reforms For example, we are cutting out legal aid for squatting. elsewhere in the system—such as welfare reforms—create Following representations from the Judges Council, we increased demand for advice. Will the Lord Chancellor are ending legal aid for some repeat judicial reviews on accept that excellent advice from his right hon. Friend immigration and asylum cases that have already had a and protect those categories of legal aid, at least during hearing and where repeated review is being used only to a transition period? obstruct and delay proceedings. Across some of these areas, reformed no win, no fee Mr Clarke: We have consulted very carefully on legal arrangements will be available, but our broader ambition aid, on both parts. We have made quite significant is that people will be encouraged to use alternative, less changes to what we originally proposed. On welfare adversarial means of resolving many of these important benefits, we are still of the opinion that the welfare problems. For private family law cases, the Government system was not intended to provide a source of litigation are increasing spending on mediation and legal advice where legal advice was required to take an appeal in the in support of mediation by two thirds, or £10 million, to last resort to a tribunal. That was not intended to be a a total of £25 million a year. Mediation has a high legalistic activity but to try to apply what my right hon. success rate––about 75%––in resolving most of the Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security is family disputes that go before it. trying to make more comprehensible by putting the rules of entitlement to social security in a sensible We have made no blanket funding exclusions. The fashion. I do not think it is a promising area for legal Bill establishes an exceptional funding scheme for advice. exceptional cases, administered by a statutory office holder free of ministerial control. That will provide Joan Ruddock: I was present at Lady Hale’s lecture funding for an excluded case where in the particular and wrote down what she said: circumstances the failure to provide support would be “Courts should be and are a last resort but they should be a likely to result in breach of the individual’s right to legal last resort which is accessible to all––rich and poor alike.” aid under the Human Rights Act 1998 or European law. Let me tell the Lord Chancellor this now: my constituents are people who need advice on immigration, on welfare Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): Will my and on housing and whose very lives can be wrecked by right hon. and learned Friend give way? the fact that they cannot get legal assistance. Where am I to send them? How are they to get justice with the Mr Clarke: Let me deal with this important point, provisions in his Bill on legal aid and on no win, no fee? because I have heard widespread concern, including from my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough, Several hon. Members rose— about the future of not-for-profit advice centres. I agree Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. May I that they do important work in providing quality, remind the House how many Members wish to contribute? worthwhile advice of the kind required by very many Our mission should be to limit our interventions. people who should not need adversarial lawyers. Legal aid represents only one of several income streams for Mr Clarke: I have already said that access to justice is many organisations, with 85% of citizens advice bureaux fundamental, but the fact is that the taxpayer’s money funding coming from other sources. Half of all bureaux cannot be used to give access to justice to large numbers get no legal aid funds at all. This issue needs to be, of people in large areas of law where the ordinary and has been, considered on a cross-Government, citizen would not contemplate litigating because the interdepartmental basis. We are working with the sector ordinary citizen on an ordinary income would not think and across Government to ensure that the Government that they could afford to embark on it. That is why we reforms help to improve the efficiency and effectiveness consulted very carefully. We concentrated on vulnerable of the advice services available to the public, and we will people and on those areas that were of such importance provide up to £20 million of additional funding in this that society as a whole would plainly feel that there was financial year to help achieve that. We are also, of a need to finance people of limited means so that they course, mindful of the impact of reforms beyond this could have access to justice. I ask the right hon. Lady to financial year and will continue to consider the issues judge all our proposals on that basis. Lady Hale seemed arising from that. to think that we were abolishing other access on the basis that people were using it too much. That is not the Elizabeth Truss: Will my right hon. and learned Friend reason that we have. But we do have a system that is give way? four times as expensive as that of New Zealand. We have to concentrate the mind and decide what it is Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Will justified to expect the taxpayer to pay for. my right hon. and learned Friend give way? Several hon. Members rose— Mr Clarke: Not at the moment; I shall carry on a Mr Clarke: I shall follow your helpful steer, Mr Deputy little further. Speaker, and make progress. I realise that these are In addition to the changes to the scope of legal aid, important matters, but I could find myself giving way the Bill includes wider reform provisions, as some reform to everyone in the Chamber. of the situation that we inherited is urgently and obviously 995 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 996 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Kenneth Clarke] I never shrink from robust debate about improvement to important and sensitive public services, and changes needed. I do not believe the public understand a system in the criminal law have always excited an extraordinary that can pay out millions of pounds from taxpayer-provided level of controversy, and they always will. If we get this central funds to compensate acquitted companies and right, however, the prize is a justice system that properly wealthy people for their legal costs, whether the £21 million contributes to a safer, fairer society, and a justice system paid to the firms in the Hatfield rail crash case, the that is user friendly, that works, that does not deny £18 million paid to a number of pharmaceutical firms access to justice and that has less daunting waste with accused of price fixing, or the hundreds of thousands costs under control. I would, in fact, have liked to have of pounds that have on occasion gone to celebrities introduced such a major reforming Bill 20 years ago, if I accused of affray, assault and other crimes. had stayed long enough at the Home Office. I now have Part 2 of the Bill therefore establishes that defendants the opportunity to do so, and I commend the Bill to the who decline legal aid and pay privately in the higher House. criminal courts will no longer be able to recover the costs of an expensive private lawyer if acquitted. In the 2.45 pm magistrates’ courts, the sums recoverable will be limited Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I usually take all to legal aid rates. Firms will be expected to insure interventions, but today I shall try to observe your against criminal prosecutions, and will no longer be recent stricture on that, Mr Deputy Speaker, as I know able to recover costs from the taxpayer. that many colleagues wish to discuss the Bill. The Bill is therefore about delivering reform across the justice system, and we have tried to think about that The Government’s approach to criminal justice is in in a joined-up way. Let us consider problems often tatters. We have a hotch-potch that does nothing to win affecting women—about which Lady Hale was concerned the confidence of victims, of people in the justice system when she spoke the other day. For victims of crime, I and of the public at large. This Bill is controversial as have recently announced funding for 15 rape crisis much for what is absent as for what has found its way in. centres on a more secure long-term basis than in the Key policy areas that were consulted on are absent and past and funding for four new centres. For women using others are to be the subject of further review, while the justice system, in our legal aid reforms we are there are some clauses on issues that were not consulted prioritising those cases where there is greatest risk of on at all. The Lord Chancellor knows as well as I do harm, retaining legal aid for cases involving domestic that within weeks, if not days, of this Bill moving to violence, child abuse and child abduction, and we have Committee, there will be a flood of new amendments broadened the range of evidence accepted. and new clauses. After 13 months, three Green Papers In private family law, the taxpayer is increasing funding and three consultations, there is no excuse. for mediation and legal advice in support of mediation. Last week, the Prime Minister unveiled the right hon. More broadly on family cases, part 2 of the Bill extends and learned Gentleman’s legislation in his absence. A the powers for courts to require one party to pay number of eye-catching proposals were announced on towards the other’s legal bills in some cases where squatting, self-defence and knife crime. The favourable resources are not equal. For example, when a couple coverage they received was precisely the Prime Minister’s have parted and the man remains very prosperous whereas aim. Suddenly, because of the Prime Minister’s last-minute the woman is almost penniless and is seeking some intervention, the Bill was spun as being tough on crime. remedy, the court will have the power to require one Even the words “punishment of offenders” found their party to pay towards the other’s costs. In public family way into the name of the Bill, but we must be clear from law, the taxpayer will still be providing more than the start: the clause on knife crime is still a Conservative £400 million for family legal aid. broken promise. It is not what the party promised in its For female offenders in the criminal justice system, manifesto. The new offence of aggravated knife possession we have not replaced—and I have never proposed carries a mandatory six-month sentence, but applies to replacing—short-term prison sentences with community a much narrower category of cases of those caught sentences, but if we can increase confidence that community carrying a knife. The offence of aggravated knife possession sentences will be meaningfully punitive, they could make is using a knife to threaten someone, and that is already the justice system more sensible in some situations, such a crime; the sentencing guidelines already recommend a as in ensuring that there are decent non-penal options minimum sentence of six months. It is not even properly for offenders with caring responsibilities where their mandatory. A court will not have to hand down the being sent to prison would cause chaos for innocent sentence; it will be up to the judge to decide, given the children in their families. In dealing with women prisoners circumstances of the case or the offender. Knife crime is and offenders, we are, in fact, proceeding on a very a persistent and worrying concern, and it impacts in similar basis to the previous Government. particular on young people and the disadvantaged. It is My vision is a legal system that is substantially reformed. unclear how this hollow proposal will help communities In addition to implementing changes to legal aid and blighted by knife crime. the Jackson proposals on no-win, no-fee, my Department Two other headline grabbers—squatting and self-defence is developing and supporting work to improve civil legal against burglars—are not even in the Bill, but as the processes, criminal justice efficiency and family justice. Justice Secretary has admitted today, the provisions on It is a measure of the challenge before us that the Bill, self-defence will not be a new law; they are just a which on any measure is a huge Leviathan of a piece of reiteration of the existing law. This is yet another chapter proposed legislation, is only part of the overall reforms in a rather depressing story that has been repeated since we need to deliver. The changes we are making are, of May 2010: a string of broken promises on criminal course, financially necessary, but they will also make the justice. Before the election, there was a commitment to system more sensible and civilised. match Labour’s prison building programme. Instead, 997 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 998 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill spend has been slashed to almost zero. The Tories realise that he is no longer the Chancellor, but the Lord promised minimum and maximum sentencing, but that Chancellor. His justice policy is retrofitted around his has now also been ditched, and the electorate were prison population reduction target, which is in turn promised that those caught carrying a knife would face driven by the 23% budget cuts. Our justice system the presumption of jail, yet what we have been presented deserves a better advocate. with is entirely different. Let me also give an accurate account of our record. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): May I The Justice Secretary inherited levels of crime that were remind the right hon. Gentleman that in November, he 43% lower than in 1997; crime went down under Labour. said: He inherited a system with a greater focus on diversion “Let me be clear: had we been in government today, we, too, for those with mental health problems and drug would have been announcing savings to the legal aid budget”?— dependencies. He inherited a capital programme upgrading [Official Report, 15 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 663.] and expanding our prison estate. He inherited innovative Will he set out precisely from where those savings in the payment-by-results schemes, including the one he now legal aid budget would come? boasts about in Peterborough. Reoffending, particularly among young people, fell under Labour, thanks to Sadiq Khan: I have done that before and I shall do so investment in effective intervention programmes now again in a while—[Interruption.] I am happy to answer threatened by his Government. This Bill risks all that that question. progress. The Justice Secretary’s remand policies demonstrate That has generated an impressive coalition opposed how budget-cutting is taking priority over the best to the plans, from the judiciary, victims groups, legal interests of our justice system. Defendants will not be organisations, charities that act on behalf of some of remanded in custody when there is “no real prospect” of the most vulnerable in society, and some of the Justice a custodial sentence being handed down. The Government’s Secretary’s own party’s Back Benchers—but not, I note, victims commissioner, Louise Casey, says: from the Liberal Democrat Benches. Briefing note after “Victim’s groups during consultation have expressed alarm” briefing note from organisations as diverse as Scope and Justice demonstrate that the Prime Minister’s perceived at those proposals. The Magistrates Association and the rescue of the justice Bill is fooling no one. Sentencing Council have also expressed opposition. The Sentencing Council states that I support penal reforms, but these are the wrong “in some cases it will not be clear until the conclusion of the reforms: carelessly thought out, badly framed, confusingly trial/the preparation of the pre-sentence report whether the offence argued, weakly handled and grossly under-resourced in fact merits a custodial sentence.” from the start. It will be communities around the country that suffer. The council reminds us that “The primary reason for remanding a defendant in custody is Mr Kenneth Clarke: I am glad to hear that the right that he or she will fail to attend court”; hon. Gentleman is in favour of penal reform, but he has or that there is a “risk of further offending”; and/or not, so far as I am aware, made a single suggestion on that that. Will he give us one or two examples of the liberal “there may be a good reason to believe that the defendant will reforms that he has in mind? interfere with witnesses”. Sadiq Khan: The right hon. and learned Gentleman Does the Justice Secretary not realise that that change is will be aware of our progress in relation to mental likely to deter witnesses and victims from coming forward? health, following the Bradley report, which he has now Lords Justices Thomas and Goldring both raised the agreed to follow with a reduced budget. He will also be genuine concern that aware of the work done by Corston on diverting women “the decision whether or not to grant bail is quite separate from away from prison, and of payment by results. He knows the decision as to the eventual sentence”, that he has under-resourced the work that we began, yet they have been ignored. In this Chamber last week, and he is putting our strategy at risk. when ditching his 50% sentence reduction proposal, the Shambolic, last-minute changes to the Bill have left a Justice Secretary said that he had £140 million black hole in the Justice Secretary’s plans. “paid particular regard to the legal opinions that” The Prime Minister has said that that money will need he to be found within the Ministry of Justice budget, and the Justice Secretary admitted this morning that he is “was getting from serious members of the judiciary and others”.— not sure where he will find it. The House needs to know [Official Report, 21 June 2011; Vol. 530, c. 169.] the exact details. The progress of the Bill depends on It is disappointing that he has ignored not only Lady knowing where that money will come from, and what Justice Hale, but the concerns of the senior judiciary implications that might have on other spend. and others on the remand policy, and that he has not Why do we have this problem? We have it because the removed it from the Bill. Justice Secretary simply failed to argue his corner with Indeterminate sentences for public protection are the Treasury. He boasted that he did not wish to be notable by their absence from the Bill—that is another involved in a “macho contest” with Cabinet colleagues example of the shambles that the Justice Secretary is in. over who could have the smallest budget cut. The He has talked of the need to reform the system of IPPs, figures are testimony to that: his budget cut of 23% is the use of which had mushroomed well beyond the one of the biggest in Whitehall. As a result, that is how original purpose. IPPs have a role as they were originally he justifies his ill-thought-out policies. Cuts to prison, envisaged, and I acknowledge the efforts of my right probation and the legal aid budget all stem from his hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) to lackadaisical attitude towards the Treasury. He needs to reform them. 999 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1000 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Sadiq Khan] in society, the 31 charities that wrote last week to The Times in protest, the Law Society, the Bar Council and This Government proposed a new approach to IPPs other members of the judiciary, and yet he has ignored in their Green Paper, which were subsequently consulted their concerns—[Interruption.] I will let hon. Members on, as has been said. They favoured raising the minimum know right now the Opposition’s view of legal aid. We tariff to a 10-year determinate sentence before an IPP oppose the cuts to social welfare legal aid—the kind of can be enforced—a length of sentence beyond that early-stage advice provided by law centres and citizens handed down for violent and sexual offences including advice bureaux on debt, housing, welfare benefits and rape and assault. We were opposed to that. However, education issues—because of the disproportionate way there is nothing whatever in the Bill about that. The that they will affect the most needy in our society. The Justice Secretary today confirmed that he will be getting result, as campaigning group Justice has said, will be rid of IPPs, but he has also announced an urgent review the “economic cleansing” of our civil courts. Some of them. Has he not pre-empted the outcome of his estimates suggest that more than 700,000 people will review? My right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe have their access to justice taken away. and Sale East (Paul Goggins) raised the interesting That is compounded by the disproportionate impact point about learning lessons from Northern Ireland, that the proposals will have on women, in particular but the Justice Secretary will not do so, because he has because of the definition of domestic violence. Once already made his mind up, putting cost over the protection again, this Government are hitting women the hardest. of the public. Labour’s position on IPPs is clear: offenders must be Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Does my punished and reformed. They must not pose a risk to right hon. Friend agree that one problem the Government the public and proper due process must be followed have so far failed to address is ensuring the sustainability before their release, supported by courses and programmes of the law firms, centres and practices across the country? and an effectively resourced Parole Board, to allow It is not just a question of individuals losing their rehabilitation to take place. We will not accept plans service; those centres and that provision will be undermined, that water down the protection given to the public by and in many cases, face collapse. IPPs. We believe that there is a continuing role for IPPs. They should be reserved for very serious and violent Sadiq Khan: My hon. Friend is right to remind the offenders—those who are the biggest risk to the public—as House that if we are not careful, the country will was their original purpose. become an advice desert for the poor and the vulnerable The Justice Secretary’s solution appears to be mandatory as a result of that policy. life sentences for all those deemed to be a serious The previous Labour Government always strived to danger to the public if released. He has no idea if that protect social welfare legal aid. Our March 2010 proposals, will lead to the prison population going up or down, which have been strangely ignored by this Government, and no idea what he will do about those who have would have generated savings sufficient to protect social served their minimum tariff who are on an IPP. Why is welfare legal aid. The Justice Secretary’s changes will he so unwilling to invest in programmes, courses and have a huge impact on the viability of many law centres, the Parole Board to address offender behaviour? CABs and high street practices up and down the country The absence of IPPs from the Bill has created further that do an enormous amount to provide access to questions about the Secretary of State’s budget. As a justice for some of our most deprived citizens. Do hon. result, the impact assessment is incomplete. Moreover, Members know what the irony of that is? It is that this is the Prime Minister last week appeared to announce the time when they need that advice most. A whole more mandatory life sentences and longer determinate swathe of society is losing the ability to exercise its legal sentences, and that serious offenders would serve at rights, with women particularly affected. The Lord Chief least two thirds of their sentence. However, those Justice has warned that the proposals will damage access proposals—those new policies—are absent from the to justice, and Citizens Advice has warned that the cuts Bill. Given that one of the causes of the backlog in IPPs will leave hundreds of thousands with nowhere to turn is a shortage of suitable courses and resources for the for help and has demonstrated the savings to the taxpayer Parole Board, how does he expect the two-third sentence down the line from early intervention: £1 of legal proposals to avoid running into exactly the same resource expenditure on housing advice will save the state £2.34, issues as IPPs? Utter shambles! and on benefits advice the saving is £8.80. So there is a Legal aid is another important issue. Our legal aid moral as well as an economic case for not cutting in this system was established as a fundamental pillar of the way. As the Justice Secretary knows, the Lord Chief post-war welfare state. Clement Attlee’s Government Justice warned that legal aid cuts risked a surge in rightly recognised that equality in the face of the law litigants in person, with all the associated increase in should not be undermined by a lack of finance. Therefore, stress and costs. it is bitterly disappointing that the Bill has made only minimal changes to the cuts proposed in the Green The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Paper. On the day when the Green Paper was published, (Mr Jonathan Djanogly) rose— I accepted that the Opposition, too, would have made cuts to the legal aid budget. However, I asked the Justice Sadiq Khan: The Minister will have a chance to wind Secretary to look again at the areas he was targeting. He up the debate later, but we now have less than four has not done so. hours remaining, so I will not give way. As a result, the weight of opposition to the proposals The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) remains huge. He is damned by the numerous campaigning mentioned clause 12, which is of real concern and seeks groups representing some of the most vulnerable people to loosen the systems that guarantee free access to a 1001 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1002 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill solicitor upon arrest, which were established in the for many of the most vulnerable in society, particularly 1980s, when the Justice Secretary was in government— women. The Justice Secretary has failed to accept the although it was a Labour idea—on the back of a alternatives offered to make savings to the legal aid bill number of high-profile miscarriages of justice. However, and has stuck to his original plans, which will have a he has failed to justify to the House why he is seeking devastating impact on the most vulnerable in society. the change in clause 12, which we think should be No doubt many Government Members will speak in deleted from the Bill. When the Minister winds up, I favour of the Bill. I gently remind them, however, that hope he will say that it will be deleted before we reach last month, when we debated a motion to remove the our deliberations in Committee. 50% sentencing discount, many of them were marched The Government’s proposals on civil litigation are up to the top of the hill by the Grand Old Duke of driven primarily by their zeal to fix the so-called Rushcliffe, only for a humiliating march back down compensation culture. However, by cherry-picking the again a couple of weeks later. No doubt Government Jackson report recommendations, the Bill runs the risk Members now regret making all those loyal contributions. of undermining access to justice, which is something I hope they will think carefully about how they vote that the introduction of no win, no fee sought to tonight. One thing is for sure, however: we intend to guarantee. We will scrutinise those clauses closely. vote against a Second Reading for this shoddy Bill.

Mr Djanogly: Will the right hon. Gentleman give Several hon. Members rose— way? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. There is Sadiq Khan: I will not. an eight-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions, but clearly hon. Members do not have to take eight minutes. The Justice Secretary never had a credible strategy There is injury time for two interventions, but they do for achieving his rehabilitation revolution. His plans are not have to take any of those either. fatally flawed and always were, and he has demonstrated that he is not on the side of victims. His use of language on rape sentencing, his original 50% sentence reduction 3.5 pm proposals and the reduction in the use of remand in Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): The Bill custody show there is no sense that he understands that deals with two important issues on which the Justice victims and witnesses need to have confidence in the Committee has reported. Sentencing was at the core of justice system and feel that it is safe in his hands. By our report on justice reinvestment towards the end taking from judges the ability to remand people in of the previous Parliament, and it has been the subject custody in cases they think appropriate, and by abolishing of several reports on Sentencing Council guidelines. IPPs, he has not explained how he will give judges the The Government’s legal aid proposals were also examined tools they need to keep communities safe and to cut in detail in our March report. crime. The content of the Bill was originally the product of two major and conflicting factors: the need to respond Oliver Heald: Will the right hon. Gentleman comment to the financial crisis and the Lord Chancellor’s on the move towards more mediation in family courts? determination to make the criminal justice system It is an important area and something that should be more effective in preventing crime and more cost-effective welcomed. I do not know whether he would agree, but it in the use of resources. We recognise the financial is one of the Bill’s central provisions. circumstances and we welcome the willingness to think radically. Recently, however, the Bill got ambushed, and Sadiq Khan: In the short time left to me, I am happy some of its content and a lot of its presentation—not to to welcome that proposal. As the hon. Gentleman will mention its title—were the subject of No. 10’s preoccupation know, however, we need investment in training mediators. with getting favourable tabloid headlines—evidence-based It is all well and good trying to divert people away from policy does not tend to prevail in those circumstances. the courts, but we hope that the Government will train It is not clear, for example, that the knife crime provisions more mediators. will add anything to the existing practice of the courts, The Government’s figures do not add up. Overall, which take threats involving knives very seriously, and 10,000 members of prison and probation staff will lose rightly so. Personally I am not so concerned about the their jobs, yet the Justice Secretary expects much more dropping of the 50% discounts, which had nothing to for less: more rehabilitation and more treatment for do with encouraging appropriate sentencing. The problem those with mental health problems and drug dependency. is, however, that, although it was unlikely ever to achieve But how will that be funded? A chunk of his savings the £100 million of savings that were canvassed for it, was due to stem from a lower prison population, but the Department is now expected to find alternative given how the Bill has been filleted of its ill-thought-out savings to replace them. sentencing proposals, where does he think the prison Thankfully, the baby has not been thrown out with population will be in two years? Will it be higher or the bathwater. The Lord Chancellor is still pursuing his lower? I look forward to hearing the Government’s objective of making community sentences strong and ideas. effective enough to win more confidence from both the The debacle that is this Bill has shown up the judiciary and the public. Furthermore, payment by Government’s justice policy for what it is—incoherent, results will, as part of the reform of the probation inconsistent and obsessed with cutting costs. It is a service’s vital work, continue—we will be reporting on shoddy Bill that does not focus on what cuts crime, that subject shortly. We are also getting rid of the protects the public, reforms offenders and puts victims disastrous indeterminate sentences and replacing them first, and nor will it continue to ensure access to justice with life sentences in the most serious cases. 1003 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1004 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Sir Alan Beith] The Bill introduces some of Lord Justice Jackson’s proposals but not others. The proposals are a package, The Bill could, however, have begun a process leading so if bits of them are missed out there is a real danger to the commissioning of prison and probation services that they will not achieve the intended effect. more locally and by the same body. Until we do that, we will not encourage rational sentencing. Resources will Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): Does my not be available for things such as drug treatment and right hon. Friend share my concern, which has also intensive supervision if they are automatically taken up been expressed by the right hon. Member for Blackburn by the constant expansion of the prison system. Members (Mr Straw), about the absence of proposals on referral have a responsibility to use money effectively to prevent fees, which have been properly described as a “scandal”? crime—that is what we are engaged in—and not to give They were a scandal at the time of the miners’compensation people the answer that seems the most obvious one. We scandal, which resulted in 27 law firms being disciplined. have a responsibility to prevent them from suffering Does he think that that is a missing part of the Bill? from crime in the future by spending money as effectively as we can. Sir Alan Beith: Yes I do, and I was just coming to that as my final point. First, just let me complete my earlier The Committee recognises the need to contain point by saying that the absence of qualified one-way and reduce spending on the world’s most expensive cost-shifting leaves an imbalance in the implementation legal aid system, but it has serious concerns about of the Jackson proposals. It is not even clear from the some of the groups affected. We suggested alternative Bill precisely what the Government are doing. ways of making savings, including better court and Finally, let me address what I, too, have described as case management and restrictions on legal aid for the scandal of referral fees under which insurance judicial review—we welcome the Government’s moves companies and some other bodies, such as trade unions, on aspects of that latter point. We were particularly make money from selling the details and claims of the concerned that citizens advice bureaux and neighbourhood victims of accidents. It will not be enough merely to ban law centres would be flooded by demands for legal referral fees, because the Government and the industry advice without the resources to help, so we welcome the must deal with a system of fees that has a fundamental Government’s initial response to the transition fund fault. If there is a system of fees in which a lawyer can and debt advice. However, more will be needed. We still make a profit from a relatively small claim having welcome the agreement to secure savings in the wastefully paid hundreds of pounds for the privilege of pursuing inefficient administration of the Legal Services Commission, that claim, then we have to address the fixed costs as and we agree with the wider objective of discouraging well as the referral fees. unnecessary litigation. We are also glad that the Government have responded to our concerns about the definition of Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con) rose— domestic violence. Mr Kenneth Clarke rose— The Government have missed an opportunity in not taking up our recommendation on the “polluter pays” Sir Alan Beith: I must conclude, so I shall give way principle. If Departments faced a financial penalty for only to the Secretary of State. having too many decisions overturned on appeal, they would change their behaviour and public money would Mr Clarke: The reason why we did not deal with that be saved. The Government’s response concentrates on part of Jackson was because the Legal Services Board individual cases. This is an overall proposal under which, had taken it on itself to review the future of referral if Departments rose above a certain threshold, they fees. We now have its report and the Under-Secretary of would have to pay money out of their budgets. That is State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for the only way we will effect the behavioural change and Huntingdon, and I are considering referral fees. I take get the right decisions first time. on board what my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) and the right hon. Member for As I have indicated, I have particular concerns about Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) have been saying. clinical negligence cases in which determining liability is a complex problem, particularly those concerning children Sir Alan Beith: I am grateful to the Secretary of State. with serious handicaps arising from birth injury. The I know no one who agrees with the Legal Services Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member Board’s conclusions, but I hope that the matter will be for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) wrote to me about this considered urgently to see whether the Bill can be used and said that the Department was discussing with the to complete the process of dealing with what is undoubtedly national health service litigation authority and other a scandal, which puts up costs for our constituents. stakeholders how the commissioning of reports could The Bill is part of a necessary process of reform in be improved with joint reports, and the Secretary of both sentencing and legal aid, but it needs a great deal State has also referred to that. However, I understand of work before it leaves this House and a great deal of from my discussions with the NHSLA that that is not monitoring when it comes into force. proceeding or is not proving to be practical. I hope that the Minister, when he winds up, will explain what is Several hon. Members rose— happening on that front. The other element in the Government’s attempt to deal with this problem was Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Before I retaining after-the-event insurance for cases of this call the next speaker let me say that a number of kind, but it is not clear to those who understand the Members have complained about the near-sub-zero system that there would be a viable market in after-the-event temperatures in the Chamber—I understand that it is a insurance in such a narrow field, when it has been lovely day outside. I have informed the doorkeepers and abolished in other areas. this will be rectified. 1005 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1006 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill 3.13 pm Mr Straw: I am sorry, but the hon. Gentleman has failed to read the “not” in the first line of proposed new Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): In his closing subsection (5A): peroration, the Lord Chancellor said that he wished he had been able to stay on as Home Secretary for “A justice of the peace may not remand a person in…custody under subsection (5) if…the person was released on bail in longer than he did in the Administration in the early non-extradition proceedings”. 1990s, so as to introduce a measure of this kind. I have to say to Conservative Members that they are very Simon Reevell: Will the right hon. Gentleman give lucky he did not stay on for longer than the year he way? was there. Mr Straw: No, of course I will not. The explanatory Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con) indicated assent. memorandum makes exactly the same point. Let me address the issue of indeterminate sentences Mr Straw: I am glad to have the approbation of the for public protection. I entirely endorse what my right hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) on that. hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) has When he was the Home Secretary, the Lord Chancellor said from the Front Bench. The Secretary of State made was the last in line of a number of very complacent one of his sweeping statements, saying that those sentences Home Secretaries who had allowed crime simply to have been discredited. No, they have not. Who has rise and rise. It doubled under the Conservatives, as discredited them? He has, because he has been forced to Michael Howard pointed out, and reached its peak save money on indeterminate public protection sentences under the current Lord Chancellor. Nothing that he s having had to surrender the 50% cut in the bail did then, and nothing that he is proposing today, will discount, as he well knows. IPPs have worked. do anything to make people safer or to cut crime. The Secretary of State comprehensively failed to Indeed, I warn Conservative Members, for whom I have answer the hon. Member for Shipley yesterday, when great affection, that in the coming months, if the Bill the hon. Gentleman brought out that the reoffending goes through, they will face—day after day, week after rate for IPPs has been spectacularly successful—of the week—stories in the newspapers in which judges and 1,449 people released, only 11 have reoffended. The magistrates complain publicly that defendant X or Secretary of State laughs, but what we are dealing with defendant Y should have been remanded in custody here is the most serious offenders who, under the law, awaiting trial but that the courts no longer have any are expected to show that they would go straight, if they power on that. were released. He is laughing, but the laugh will be on the other side of the Conservatives’ faces when and if I say to the Lord Chancellor, who has some his measures go forward and people are released before experience of the criminal trial process, that the it is safe for them to be released and they commit provisions in clause 73 and schedule 10 regarding further offences. He will be the person to blame for that. restrictions on bail are wholly irrational and take no account whatever of the way in which courts and defendants operate. The court is not going to know Mr Kenneth Clarke: The right hon. Gentleman is whether it needs to send someone to prison until it referring to the 200 people who have been released, but has heard the full case and the mitigation. If more than 6,000 of them are still in prison with no idea Parliament lays down rules regarding the prospect of a when or if they are going to be released. Their reoffending sentence, how is the court to translate that into a real rate is, I agree, very low, but that is not a justification for prospect of a prison sentence? What will happen in a the system. The vast majority of respondents to our case in which there is a low likelihood of a sentence on consultation regard it as something of a disgrace that conviction and the defendant simply refuses to turn up the measure has been put on to the statute book and is in court? The Secretary of State was obviously completely working in this way. unaware of the contents of paragraph 5 of schedule 10—I am glad that he is looking at it now—which Mr Straw: I take that, as they say in court, as an makes it absolutely clear that even if the defendant fails admission. At long last, the Secretary of State now to appear in court and is arrested, they cannot be accepts that the reoffending rate of those released under remanded in custody unless the court has come to a IPPs is low. Perhaps he will now reassess his ludicrous prior decision that there is a real prospect of their claim that that policy is not working. getting a period of imprisonment at the end of the case. That is mad, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman Anna Soubry: Will the right hon. Gentleman give must look at it again. way? Mr Straw: I am afraid that I have had my ration of Simon Reevell (Dewsbury) (Con): I wonder whether interventions. the right hon. Gentleman has considered sub-paragraph (b), which makes it perfectly clear that if someone has Let me move on to the proposals for civil litigation been convicted of an offence in the proceedings, reform. I established the Jackson review and fully endorsed which would include a bail offence, the provision its conclusions in January 2010. I welcome the fact that barring the grant of bail does not apply, so if this Government are implementing it, but they are somebody failed to surrender, they would be dealt doing so only in part. with as they are now in their absence, and they could I want to pick up on the points made by the right be remanded in custody when arrested by the police. hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) The same qualifying sub-paragraph is present on page and the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan 168, which deals with bail in other circumstances. Evans) about referral fees and associated matters. As 1007 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1008 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Straw] There should be an urgent review of the effectiveness, or the rather lack of it, of the regulation of claims colleagues will know, on Monday I published the results management companies, as established under the of an investigation into what I can only describe as a Compensation Act 2006. That, too, is not working as racket in the motor insurance industry in which almost effectively as it should. In Blackburn and in many other everyone in the chain, from recovery firms, claims urban areas, honest drivers with impeccable driving companies, medical experts to insurers themselves, is records are facing huge increases in premiums, not paying between £200 and £1,000 in referral fees. Everybody because of any risk that they have any control over but in this chain is on the take, and the total is running into because of the level of claims by other people. It is a billions. form of collective punishment, and it needs to be outlawed. Since Monday, I have been overwhelmed by e-mails, Over the past 20 years, as a result of taxpayer investment which I am very happy to supply to the Lord Chancellor in safer roads and driver investment in safer and more if he wishes, from members of the public and professionals secure cars, there has been a dramatic fall in the number with even more horrifying detail about the dodgy practices, of accidents and the number of thefts from vehicles. frauds and near-frauds that are now endemic in this There should not be a steep increase in the insurance industry, including one from a lady who explained that premium—instead, there should be a fall. It is time for she “had had an argument with her bicycle”. She was major reforms so that, at long last, motorists can benefit the only person present at the time, she went to hospital from this investment. and ever since she has been pestered to make a claim. 3.24 pm Jonathan Evans: Will the right hon. Gentleman give Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): As way? a duty solicitor, I declare an interest in—as in the title of the Bill—legal aid, sentencing and punishment of Mr Straw: No, I am sorry. offenders. One solicitor wrote to me saying that referral fees are It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for no more than a “form of legalised bribery”. He is right. Blackburn (Mr Straw). He reminds me of many a client They are the parasites eating away at the integrity of the I have represented in Edmonton police station who fails whole of the motor insurance industry and associated to accept any responsibility despite the compelling case professions, including lawyers. Their effect is to drive up against them. He fails to accept responsibility despite costs, and therefore premiums, and actively to encourage the fact that two thirds of people reoffend when they individuals— come out of prison and most of our prisoners are lying idle in prison. Despite the plethora—the incontinence—of Heather Wheeler rose— criminal justice legislation, all of which he probably had a part in as a Home Secretary and a Justice Secretary, Mr Straw: I am sorry—I am running out of time. victims still feel a lack of proper confidence in the justice system, but he does not accept any responsibility Referrals actively encourage individuals to try their for that. luck in making claims for fictitious or wholly exaggerated During the 13 years of the Labour Government, injuries. I accept, and do so publicly, that that comes as there were more than 20 criminal justice Bills, some of a result of the Access to Justice Act 1999, which was which I had the opportunity to scrutinise. I gave my based on recommendations from Lord Woolf. It gave maiden speech on one of those occasions—the debate rise to expectations that have not been met. I was clear on the Violent Crime Reduction Bill. That was in many when I established Jackson, endorsed it and set up an ways one of the messaging Bills that were very much immediate consultation process that the system needed part of the new Labour project; they simply sent out a root-and-branch reform. I am perfectly happy to accept message without having any real effect. We also had that. many a Christmas tree Bill. For example, one of their I was glad to hear the Secretary of State’s words last Bills, the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill, about that. With respect to the Under-Secretary of had many pieces of additional legislation tacked on to it State for Justice, the hon. Member for Huntingdon as it went through its stages. That is another danger of (Mr Djanogly), however, referral fees are not, as he said over-legislation. yesterday, a small part of the problem; they are a The shadow Justice Secretary criticised the Green central part of the problem. They are not a magic Paper, consultation and further consultation on the IPP bullet, and other actions will also need to be taken. issue. What is he complaining about? Does he want us Unless he deals with referral fees, among other things, to move quickly to legislate and run the risks that we as well as changing the whole system, he will not deal have had before? We have a litany of unimplemented with the extraordinary abuse that is taking place. 2003 legislation that we are now having to deal with. There are other changes that I ask the Secretary of That is part of the legacy. That legacy is not only a State to consider. First, there could be legislation, possibly failure in our prison system and criminal justice system, in this Bill, to prohibit the payment of damages for but a failure of legislation. The right hon. Member for so-called whiplash injuries, save where there is other Blackburn and other Opposition Members have to accept objective evidence of serious injury, as other jurisdictions responsibility for that. have already done. The regulators, the Information One issue that will be raised in the consultation is Commissioner and Ofcom should crack down hard on self-defence and defending one’s property. The right the patent abuse of individuals’ personal data. I have hon. Gentleman and others have been involved in taken up the issue, and I hope that, as the Secretary of discussions about sending out a message on that issue. I State responsible, he will do so, too. encourage him to read the case of R v. Keane or the 1009 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1010 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill recent case of R v. McGrath. Those show that his Philip Davies: Does my hon. Friend also accept that efforts at messaging and putting more baubles on Christmas the current guidelines for addressing threatening behaviour tree Bills have not made a jot of difference in terms of with a knife state that a magistrates court should refer changing the existing legislation that applies in that the case to a Crown court because the magistrates court area. We need to learn those lessons well, and this is not considered to have sufficient powers to punish Government are doing that, because it has taken 13 months such people? A six-month penalty could easily become for us to introduce this criminal justice Bill. I hope that a maximum, rather than a minimum, sentence for the we will not come back next year with another criminal offence. justice Bill, and that we will properly scrutinise this, making any necessary changes and then moving forward. Mr Burrowes: My hon. Friend makes the point that What we need in our justice system is to get back to the current guidance states that such people should the three R’s—retribution, restoration and rehabilitation, receive a serious custodial penalty, and the clause tries which need to be properly balanced. The Bill is not the to reaffirm that in statute, but we need to ensure that, whole story in relation to what the Government are notwithstanding the worthy intentions of the clause, we saying about criminal justice. We would not want that. do not downgrade the simple possession offence; otherwise We do not show our card on the basis of how many laws a clever lawyer might use it to put in an alternative plea we pass and the extent of this legislation, for example. of simple possession, which lends itself to a lesser, Our approach is to do with our intervening early to stop non-custodial penalty when compared with the aggravated many of these people getting involved in the criminal offence. Ministers may want to pass a note to the justice system. It is to do with the way we are dealing Sentencing Guidelines Council to make it clear that the with drugs and ensuring that many people more recover current guidance on simple possession should remain instead of getting parked up on methadone. That all intact. matters greatly, as does more structural reform besides. I also recognise that there are retributive elements in In some areas, such as youth justice, the Bill does not the Bill. There is the important extension of curfews, have a great number of clauses. There is a recognition of which my hon. Friends will very much welcome, and we the progress that has been made, including the youth need to recognise that there are more tools in the box rehabilitation order. That needs to be properly implemented. for dealing with matters on a community basis and retributively in order to ensure that liberty is restricted One area where there needs to be retribution is knife and for a longer period. crime, as I am sure we all agree. In our manifesto, there was a clear commitment to it, so I welcome the intention The second element of the justice system should be a of clause 113 to make it crystal clear that anyone who proper restorative element—the basic requirement of threatens with a knife will receive a custodial sentence. I justice to make amends as far as possible. Victims welcome that intention, but I know—sadly all too well should be central to our justice system, and I hate it in Enfield, where we have had seven fatalities in the past when people refer to a victimless crime. It greatly concerns three years and one in the past month, all at the hands me, because when I see what is happening in Enfield, in of someone with a knife—that any possession of a particular, and elsewhere, I do not see a victimless weapon is in effect threatening. Even if the person crime. That is why I welcome the clause that will ensure possessing the knife does not intend to threaten, he or a positive and much stronger duty to order compensation someone else could well become a victim of its use if he for any loss or damage, for personal injury and, indeed, gets involved in any disturbance later. for bereavement or funeral payments. We all know of cases in which people have waited Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con) months and months to hear about a claim to the rose— Criminal Injuries Compensation Board for funeral payments, and the Bill will give much greater access to, Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con) rose— and opportunity for, compensation involving people who are victims of the most serious crimes. Similarly, Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con) rose— there needs to be proper reparation and compensation for minor crimes. Mr Burrowes: I give way to my hon. Friend and Currently, the compensation order system is seriously constituency neighbour. under-used. Only 18.1% of offenders in 2010 were ordered to pay compensation. That must change and, as Nick de Bois: My hon. Friend knows that my constituents a result of this Bill, it will, but I encourage Ministers to in Enfield North will very much welcome the mandatory ensure that the duty on all courts extends to reparation, proposals on using a knife in a threatening way, but is so that not just financial but other means of restorative he aware that, of those cases followed up involving justice are recognised. individuals carrying a knife or using a knife offensively, more than 30% involved people under 18, and that the Often, when the door is shut on the prisoner, the legislation before us will not apply to such people? victim is shut out as well, so we need to ensure that Perhaps that is something we should press for. when prisoners are inside they feel a proper sense of responsibility and do not forget that there is a victim. Mr Burrowes: My hon. Friend may be making an That is why we are implementing the Prisoner Earnings early bid to be on the Public Bill Committee, but we Act. It was enacted in 1996, and ironically we have had certainly need to recognise, particularly in areas such as a plethora of legislation since, but that good piece of Enfield, that such behaviour is prevalent, that sadly all legislation, which Hartley Booth introduced, is now too often those under 18 are involved in gangs and and quite properly going to be implemented. possess knives, and that clause 113 does not apply to The Act recognises that we are not going to accept them. the answer that I received from the Home Office, when I 1011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1012 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Burrowes] cavalier way in which he fulfilled his duties. This Bill is a shambles, his strategy is in tatters and everyone is in asked it why it was not going to introduce the legislation confusion. The main problem is that he has such a in 2007. The Home Office said, “We don’t think that piecemeal approach to the issue. The Justice Committee’s prisoners will be able to find the work or work enough report, “Cutting crime: the case for justice reinvestment”, to make this viable.” We are not accepting that, because states: this Government have a much greater ambition. “A piecemeal approach to justice reinvestment is unlikely to We are not going to let prisoners sit idle in their cells; work and a holistic approach to reform is necessary, with a very they will do proper work purposefully, and their earnings clear and explicit statement of the purpose of the whole system will go into a victims’ fund. The expectation is for against which organisational aims can be tested to assess their contribution to cutting the extent and seriousness of offending £1 million: £1 million of ambition that the previous and re-offending.” Government did not have; £1 million that will and should go into the hands of victims. We need to ensure This Bill fails that test. proper enforcement, too, so that the current outstanding In that report, we also called for better use of resources compensation payments of some £152 million reach the and a focus by every part of the criminal justice system right people. on cutting offending, because that is what victims want. We need to ensure that there is retribution, restoration We keep being told that the views of victims are important, and rehabilitation. The rehabilitation revolution will go but more than not becoming a victim in the first place, much further and deeper than simply this Bill, because they want to know that they will not become a victim it will ensure that we have payment by results. The right again in the future. Therefore, the purpose of the criminal hon. Member for Blackburn talked about outcomes—from justice system—and of sentencing—is to ensure that a previous Government who were all about process, victims are protected from further offending. targets and messaging. Well, we are into outcomes, but Let us cut to the chase—cutting the number of people we are into proper outcomes, so we will have not just the in prison may save money, but cutting prison numbers Peterborough example, although welcome. Our ambitions to save money is to approach the problem from the are much greater than simply to introduce a social wrong end. There is only one acceptable reason for impact bond in Peterborough. cutting prison numbers, and that is that offending and reoffending have fallen; fewer people are becoming Mr Straw: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? victims; there are fewer offenders who need to be incarcerated; and our streets and homes are safer. Mr Burrowes: There is not time, unfortunately. It is a matter of some pride to me that the number of We will ensure that that is done across the country— places in young offender institutions has been cut for paying people to get into work, to stop reoffending and precisely those reasons. As a result of the work of the to ensure that they get off drugs. We are driving through Youth Justice Board and the youth offending teams, a much more ambitious agenda of recovery to stop this fewer individuals are reoffending and so fewer places everlasting cycle of criminality—being on drugs, committing are needed. That reduction in numbers leads to immediate crime to feed a drugs habit, going to prison and so on. savings, but it is even more significant given that time in We will break that cycle of crime. custody often acts as a training course in criminal There are concerns, whether it is magistrates wanting activity for young people. So the long-term benefit of to extend the period of imprisonment to the maximum keeping people out of youth offending and preventing of 12 months or on legal aid, but this is a good Bill reoffending patterns is enormous. That makes it very that— odd that the Secretary of State will do away with the Youth Justice Board and I urge him to reconsider. I Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. know that he is taking many activities inside the Department for Justice—and I am glad that he is encouraging the 3.35 pm continuation of those activities and the youth offending Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): teams—but he is taking in people who, as part of an This Bill is a shambles and so is the Lord Chancellor’s independent body, have acted as the touchstone for approach to crime. Far from being a significant reforming success in that aspect of reducing reoffending. measure, it is an incoherent fragment. The Opposition admire the panache of the Lord Chancellor, who is a Mr Burrowes: The right hon. Gentleman obviously much-loved and robust performer and who has sought has great experience and was no doubt the architect of to rise above the U-turns forced on him by a Prime the first such legislation in 1997. He will be interested to Minister who is more interested in headlines than in know that reoffending rates were very high over the reform, but it does not wash. 13 years to 2010, and that is something for which the previous Government should be held accountable. Does The Justice Secretary should take particular note of he not welcome the fact that in this Bill there is now the criticism from his Back Benchers and the significant provision for supervision of prisoners who have a sentence criticism from the Chair of the Justice Committee. The of less than 12 months? That has never happened in the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan past. Giving supervision to offenders after they are Beith) kindly said that he thought that the baby was not released will no doubt help to reduce reoffending levels. totally being thrown out with the bathwater, but I am not sure about that and I am certainly worried about Alun Michael: I have said for a long time that we the health of the baby. should do more to ensure that short sentences work and When the Secretary of State was Home Secretary, he that they do not accelerate offending. In this legislation, presided over a crime wave. He also offended virtually there are things to be welcomed, but the big picture is every profession in sight, especially the police, by the not bright enough for us to welcome the Bill as a whole. 1013 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1014 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Yesterday, in answer to my question, the Justice Secretary I regret that we have a Home Secretary who has failed said: to defend her budget and is imposing cuts on the police “The Sentencing Council is already under a duty to provide that are too deep, too soon and disgracefully front-loaded; information about the effectiveness of sentencing practice”.—[Official and a Secretary of State for Justice, who, by his failure Report, 28 June 2011; Vol. 530, c. 738.] to apply clarity and logic to the challenge of justice Unless there is a clear focus on reducing reoffending reinvestment and effectiveness in cutting crime, is doomed and ensuring that that is understood by sentencers, the to fail. Sadly, it is the victims and not he who will pay Bill will not be effective. That is why I call on the Justice the penalty for that. Secretary to change his approach and put a real focus on the work of the Sentencing Council not just to 3.44 pm provide information about the effectiveness of sentencing practice but to ensure that sentencing practice is driven Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): in ways in which it can increase the success of the system. I was a legal aid family lawyer for 23 years before becoming an MP, and my husband continues to run our The work of the Youth Justice Board and the youth firm in Croydon. I declare an interest in the debate. offending teams shows what can be done if there is a clear and unremitting focus on cutting offending and The Government’s plans to reform legal aid are brave reoffending. Why not use a new mechanism to focus on and bold. The consultation has been taken seriously the 18 to 25 age group? We are seeing a reduction in the and important concessions have been made, but I continue numbers of 18 to 25-year-olds who are reoffending to have some serious concerns. The plans rely on people because of the success of intervention with young offenders. being able to represent themselves, but what about Why not learn that lesson and apply it properly to that people with learning difficulties, limited English or mental reduced cohort so that we can further drive down the health problems? Those people cannot help themselves; numbers who reoffend? they cannot do it. The plans rely on our hard-pressed voluntary sector dealing with the fallout from the legal The Justice Secretary has admitted that the criminal sector, but our not-for-profit organisations are already justice system is fragmented; it does not work as a single overstretched and under-resourced. system. A series of agencies operate to their own objectives and are held to account for different purposes. Bring it Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Does my hon. all together. Make it coherent. Let us have some coherent Friend agree that many citizens advice bureaux—such legislation from the Justice Secretary. The criminal justice as my own, South Hams—receive 55% to 65% of their system should pay attention to the Select Committee’s funding from legal aid and are concerned about the recommendations on justice reinvestment. The whole of time frame with the proposals being introduced in the system should focus on reducing reoffending. October? Victims want to feel that they are less likely to be offended against in the future. The Home Affairs Committee Mrs Grant: My hon. Friend makes a good point, and heard evidence from people who had been involved in change must be paced. Not for profit does not mean restorative justice and it found that it actually works. “No funds, please.” Those organisations still need cash When offenders are faced with their offending, they are just to stand still, let alone to deal with the massive glut less likely to reoffend. They are made to engage in of cases that will fall into their laps, but I am reassured relationships, which they have often failed to do in the and encouraged by what my right hon. and learned past and which may have led them into offending in the Friend the Secretary of State for Justice said about first place. They do not see the victim as another person. directing an additional sum of some £20 million towards Although it is essential that we do something about them. That is very positive indeed. what has been described as relational justice, there is The plans rely on judges, magistrates and tribunal nothing about it in the legislation. Too often, it is low chairmen having the time to assist numerous litigants in down the agenda. The possibility is there but we are not person, but I can honestly tell hon. Members that that driving it through the system and getting the benefits. I time does not exist, because judges already have back- appeal to the Secretary of State to push relational to-back lists. Delays in court will become even worse. justice up his agenda. The plans rely on less dependency on legal proceedings, I also appeal to the Secretary of State to work with but as I have said before in the House, mediation is no the Home Secretary to derive greater success from panacea. It frequently fails, especially in family cases, crime reduction partnerships, which again have been where there is often an imbalance of power between the important, as my right hon. Friend the Member for parties. Where will all the mediators come from? Who Blackburn (Mr Straw) said in his contribution a few will pay for them? moments ago. We have been successful in reducing crime, but we can go further and go faster if the right Oliver Heald: I am closely following my hon. Friend’s mechanisms are used. In this regard, I commend the sincere and important remarks, but does she not agree violence reduction project in Cardiff, which, since I last that the advantage of mediation is that people are referred to it in this Chamber, has been endorsed by the brought together and that disputes are reduced in World Health Organisation and is the subject of an circumstances of family life, thus achieving something article in The British Medical Journal. Such acclaim worth while in itself? Mediation is the right way to go, shows that the approach in Cardiff has worked. It has even though I accept that some cases will also need to driven down violent crime by 25% more than the cohort be litigated. of cities with which it can properly be compared. The project works; it reduces offences and protects people Mrs Grant: The problem is that not all cases can be from becoming victims. That is what needs to be put at mediated, and the difficult ones—the ones that we are the centre of our criminal justice system. dealing with—usually end up in court anyway. 1015 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1016 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mrs Grant] situation that I have described and a man who has historically been difficult, drunken and abusive might The plans have telephone advice as an alternative to a not, regrettably, be able to sort things out. trusted and recommended solicitor, but the law is We must accept that the past 50 years have created a complicated. The law can be an ass, and it is not easy to social mess, caused largely by the demise of the family understand. Having tried to explain maintenance unit and stalling social mobility. We cannot pull the rug pending suit or some other aspect of the Matrimonial from under the feet of 500,000 people who have no Causes Act 1973 to a frightened and vulnerable litigant, genuine alternative. Civil liberty is about the freedom of I can tell hon. Members that it makes clients feel our nation; civil legal aid is about protecting citizens. frustrated and confused and leaves solicitors feeling For some, civil legal aid is the only sword and shield in quite inadequate. their armoury. We must therefore wear kid gloves when The plans badly impact on women, especially in the handling that delicate aspect of the public purse. For all categories of family, education and housing law. Some the above reasons, I hope that further significant changes 75% of domestic violence victims are women; 90% of will be made to this important Bill in Committee and single parents are women; and 97% of those who are on Report. eligible for child maintenance are women. Women are more likely to be in non-unionised jobs, and men are more likely to be financially better off and able to pay privately. 3.53 pm Over the years, my firm has looked after about 14,000 Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): Thank you clients in south London, Surrey and west Kent. The for giving me the opportunity to take part in this family profile that I describe is, sadly, not unusual. One important debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. I agree with mother presented with some learning difficulties and a many of the comments made by the hon. Member for history of self-harm and drug abuse, but says that she is Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant). The Government now clean. She has three children, all girls, with three should listen to her experience and knowledge. different fathers. The father of the eldest daughter For 60 years, legal aid has provided secure and guaranteed sought a residence order and a contact order. Mother access to justice for those who cannot otherwise afford and daughter were resistant in view of the father’s legal representation, often protecting the most vulnerable history of bullying and drunkenness. There were no in our society. With their reforms, the Government are previous injunction orders, but many police call-outs. undermining the principles of justice. The right to All the girls were having problems at school, and the access it will become the privilege of the few who can middle daughter had been diagnosed with ADHD. The afford it. The more I understand about the Government’s school had threatened suspension due to disruptive approach to justice policy, the more I realise that there behaviour. The mother was on income support and was is nothing just about it. Despite receiving thousands of being chased by loan sharks due to debt. She was representations from a wide range of organisations feeling suicidal and was on antidepressants. All the expert in delivering legal aid effectively and productively children were on the child protection register. that say this is not the right approach, the Government When I took instructions from that lady, judging by are not willing to listen. her physical appearance and demeanour, I thought that We know that seeking legal representation is an expensive she was about 50. It was only when I asked her for her undertaking. I understand that, but the Government date of birth that I realised that she was just 25 years are trying, inexcusably, to put a price on justice, which is old. Under the current plans, that highly vulnerable embedded in the British democratic system. That woman would not be entitled to help with residence and undermines us as a free and fair society where all have contact applications, debt problems or her children’s an equal right to justice. Everyone has the right to be educational difficulties. That is what family life is like treated fairly under the British legal system. Who someone for many in our country. Those are the people who rely is, how much they earn and where they live should not on the family courts and legal aid to resolve their be taken into account. The expense of access to our problems. Tragically, the children growing up in such legal system makes legal aid so important. Justice is a families are watching and learning bad behaviour, have right, not a privilege. Everyone deserves their day in absent boundaries, and are breeding future generations court. of victims and perpetrators. It is a vicious circle. The Government have said that they want to ensure Legal aid cost £500 million in 1982. The cost is through the reforms that legal aid is targeted at those £2 billion today. I make no case for ring-fencing from who most need it. They must have made a mistake. the cuts, and I see a genuine need for reform. Surely that cannot be correct when they are cutting the aspects of law that are often the last protection Mr Kenneth Clarke: I have a high regard for my hon. for the most vulnerable in our society: housing, debt, Friend’s expertise on the issue, which greatly exceeds welfare and employment advice. Legal aid has stood up mine as a result of her practice. The case that she makes for people and given them the voice that they deserve. I is moving, but surely such things do not lend themselves am not sure where the Government expect an alternative to litigation. Our argument is not that we will leave such to step in to deal with representation and advice for people with no support at all, but that legal advice and aspects of law that will be removed from the scope of litigation are not the best way of proceeding to resolve legal aid provision. Perhaps it is another job for the big important social and family problems of the kind that society. she describes. When people have to represent themselves in court Mrs Grant: If matters such as residence and contact because they cannot afford the legal fees, something is can be resolved without litigation, as they sometimes not right. As with so much of their legislation, the are, that is a good thing. Unfortunately, a woman in the Government have left the most vulnerable wanting. It is 1017 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1018 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill a travesty that 500,000 people will be denied their right Rehman Chishti rose— to legal representation and a chance for justice. The Secretary of State has said: Julie Elliott: I may not be an economist, but I am a “It cannot be right that the taxpayer is footing the bill for British taxpayer and I can tell the House that the figures unnecessary court cases that would never have even reached the simply do not add up. courtroom door, were it not for the fact that somebody else was Even the Justice Committee, in its third report on paying.”—[Official Report, 15 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 659.] legal aid, said: I seriously object to that trivialisation of our justice “We are surprised that the Government is proposing to make system. The right hon. and learned Gentleman’s reference such changes without assessing their likely impact on spending to “unnecessary court cases”shows where the Government from the public purse”. have gone wrong. Debt, social welfare, housing and This is another case of the Government not listening to education law are not unnecessary. They are serious and the experts on legal aid. I think we are detecting a theme complex areas of law that deserve their chance in court. here. Legal aid provision has improved and strengthened Let us maybe have one more for luck. I commend the our laws on protections and compensation and given good work of organisations such as the Law Society on justice to victims of negligence. Legal aid has been looking at alternative cost-saving measures. The Law critical in many precedent-setting cases, such as the Society proposed alternative savings worth £384 million— Hillsborough disaster, thalidomide cases and the Clapham £34 million more than the Government are looking to rail crash. Advances in case law as a direct result of cut—which would still protect all civil and family legal legal aid provision have improved protections for everyone. representation. The Law Society made its representations British law is in a better place because of the chance to but was ignored. Then the Justice Committee recommended access legal aid. Although I can sympathise to some that the Government assess the merits of their proposals. extent with the Government’s desire to promote other Again, that recommendation was not listened to. forms of legal settlement outside a courtroom, such as With these reforms the Conservatives are demonstrating through mediation, that should be an alternative, not their reckless handling of the British justice system. We the only option. In my experience, it does not always already knew that we could not trust the Conservatives work. to protect the most vulnerable members of our society; we now know that we cannot trust them to uphold the Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): founding principles of British justice either. The Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government do not Government’s own impact assessment says that these seem to have taken on board the fact that sometimes reforms will increase costs, increase criminality and solving disputes out of court is possible only when the reduce social cohesion. With that testament, I am left credible sanction of going to court at some stage is wondering: what are the real costs of these reforms to available? By taking that away, they undermine the legal aid? system of mediation in which they put so much faith, and that will lead to miscarriages of justice. 4.1 pm Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): Julie Elliott: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Thank you for calling me, Mr Deputy Speaker. During The stick-and-carrot approach, whereby there is something the early part of the speech preceding that by the hon. to make people see sense, agree and discuss things Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott), I absented sensibly, often makes the difference between mediation myself to go and have a sandwich, not having had any working and not working. lunch, so I was not expecting you to call me quite as Despite the Government’s laissez-faire approach to early in the debate. access to our legal system and their willingness again to This is obviously an important debate. I shall not leave the most vulnerable members of our society out in necessarily speak for the full time that is available to me, the cold, one of my biggest problems with the reforms but I want to focus on the sentencing aspects, specifically to legal aid provision is their economic short-sightedness. of the Green Paper. I do so from my perspective as one The cuts will ultimately lead to higher costs for society. of the two sitting recorders in the House; I am not sure The cost-benefit analysis of the reforms has shown that whether the other intends to speak. It seems to me they are not cost-effective, but short-sighted and counter- important that I do so in circumstances where sentencing productive. The costs to society will have to met elsewhere, has got itself into a bit of a mess in this country. At least by other Departments, including the Department of in England and Wales, it has become exceptionally Health, the Home Office and the Department for complicated for the judiciary, and for that reason the Communities and Local Government. It is disappointing proposals that the Government are putting forward in that, despite calls for it, no cross-Government departmental the Bill are important, not only from the perspective of review is taking place to assess the inevitable extra costs. “breaking the cycle,” which was the concern of the Yesterday, I asked about the matter at Justice questions, consultation document, but from the perspective of the and was told that other Departments’ impact analysis judiciary and the operation of the criminal courts in of the proposals was “ongoing”. Surely that should effectively sentencing criminals and meting out due have been sorted out before Second Reading. Citizens punishment for the offences of which they have been Advice estimates that £24 million spent annually on convicted by a jury. debt advice saves the Government some £188 million The starting point with sentencing, of course, is the elsewhere, and that for every £1 spent on legal aid, the fact that in 2003 a Criminal Justice Bill was placed state saves £2.34 on housing advice, £7.13 on employment before the House and passed by the previous Government. advice and £8.80 on benefits advice. It was amended on a number of occasions thereafter 1019 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1020 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Stephen Phillips] French taxpayer to give access to justice to those entitled to legal aid. It is not suggested that there is some desert but was in fact a complete minefield. It was so complicated in France where nobody has access to justice, so it must that in one case, the Court of Appeal commented that be possible to reduce the costs of legal aid. the relevant provisions were “labyrinthine”; in another Indeed, the shadow Lord Chancellor said that last they were described as a “legislative morass”. In a case year when he accepted that if Labour was in power, it, called CPS v. South East Surrey Youth Court, the too, would have to make cuts to the legal aid budget. It Court of Appeal said: is a matter of regret and shame that rather than coming “So, yet again, the courts are faced with a sample of the deeply to the House to say where he would be making those confusing provisions of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 and the cuts, he made a series of—[HON.MEMBERS: “No, he satellite statutory instruments to which it is giving stuttering didn’t; he spelled it out.”] It is extraordinary to hear at birth. The most inviting course for this Court to follow, would be least one Opposition Member saying that the shadow for its members, having shaken their heads in despair, to hold up Lord Chancellor spelled it out. I listened to the entirety their hands and say: ‘the Holy Grail of rational interpretation is impossible to find’.” of his speech, and I did not hear anything spelled out at all. [Interruption.] The shadow Minister is on the I have to tell the House that the position in which the Opposition Front Bench. Perhaps he will tell us now courts have found themselves in relation to sentencing where Labour would make the cuts in the legal aid during the last decade has been utterly intolerable. budget. Judges have had to spend considerably more time than they ought to when they should be trying cases on Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): There is a preparing sentences, giving reasons above and beyond publication called Hansard, which the hon. and learned those which they were previously obliged to give, and in Gentleman might wish to read tomorrow. He will see fact giving reasons that are probably immaterial for what I will repeat it now, although I feel that I am either the victims of crime or, indeed, those who are on taking Back-Benchers’ time. The proposals in the March the receiving end of the sentence to hear. 2010 consultation, which were put forward by the then The simplification of that aspect of sentencing by the Labour Government and have not been taken forward Bill, assuming that it becomes law, is therefore much to by this Government, would more than compensate for be welcomed. But I want it to go further, because the the cuts being made in social welfare legal aid. If the issue is important. I hope that the Lord Chancellor will hon. and learned Gentleman has a look at that consultation, listen to what I say in this regard and to what others, he will see. including the Sentencing Guidelines Council—and, I think, the Bar Council and the Law Society—have said. Stephen Phillips: I will go and have a look, and I am sure that Government Front Benchers will, too. We will What we need, and what I hope we will see during be able to see during the winding-up speeches whether this Parliament, is a consolidating statute that brings that is accepted as correct. For my part, I rather doubt together sentencing for the entirety of the criminal law. that it will be. Only then will the process become simpler and judges be able to give sentences that they are satisfied will not Mr Slaughter: You don’t even know; not a clue. be taken to the Court of Appeal unless they have got things very wrong. Only then will people know precisely Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. what sorts of sentences the courts are likely to hand down for the same sorts of offence. In due course, I Stephen Phillips: I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. I imagine that that will ensure that considerable public did not really want to get into the legal aid aspects of support is given to the criminal justice system. the Bill. I have expressed my concerns and I am sure that Front Benchers are listening to them. I am concerned I want to say a few words about legal aid. My hon. that the Opposition have at least not spelled out any Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald detail as to where they would make the cuts that they (Mrs Grant) spoke for many of us in expressing accept have to be made to the legal aid budget. concerns about the removal of legal aid in relation to some of the areas proposed by the Ministry. I hope that 4.9 pm those will be explored in great detail in Committee, particularly given the Lord Chancellor’s comments in Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): As Lady Hale warned his intervention on her. I want the Bill to come back earlier this week, the £350 million legal aid cuts made with a report from the Committee that it is satisfied that by the Bill will hit the poorest and most vulnerable in the most vulnerable in our society will continue to have society. She said that there is a well known, ironic saying access to justice in precisely the same way as those who that are able to buy justice. I say that from the perspective of “in England, justice is open to all—like the Ritz”. one who, as a lawyer, considers access to justice She went on to say: extraordinarily important. “Courts are and should be a last resort but they should be a Like my hon. Friend, I am concerned about those last resort that is accessible to all, rich and poor alike. The big particular provisions and how they might discriminate society will be the big loser if everyone does not believe that the against some of the most vulnerable. That said, I have law is there for them.” no doubt that the Bill will be amended in Committee That sums up the current position very clearly. and that the Government will listen; I hope that they The Bill represents a further attack on hard-working will. I am not sure that the Bill has absolutely everything people and on the most vulnerable in society. It is a right, but it is a step in the right direction, particularly cobbled-together, dangerous, coalition concoction of in respect of the burgeoning legal aid budget under the most risky kind. I think that it was the Justice which we in this country pay eight times as much as the Secretary who said today that it was a mixture of the 1021 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1022 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Conservative dry and tough, and the soft, wet and huge struggle between the access rights of the injured liberal. I am honestly baffled by that. I do not know person and the interests of those who have a financial what it means; it does not make much sense. Should not interest in the outcome for the employer or third party our justice policy be wholly focused on the protection of who injured them. It also affects all Members’ constituents the general public, on properly punishing offenders and who find their ability to protect themselves and their on being on the side of the victim? families diminished by the savage cuts to legal aid. The Bill presents more questions than it answers. The What does the Bill do to address the delay caused by measures go too far, too fast; they are incoherent. The the unnecessary cost of defending the undefendable? It cuts are aimed at saving money, not at reducing crime. removes the claimant’s eligibility to legal aid to pursue a The Bill puts cutting costs ahead of what is in the best legitimate claim, leaving the weakest and most vulnerable interests of the victims and of reducing crime and in a much weaker position in investigating their claim or punishing offenders. We are seeing massive cuts in commencing proceedings. front-line police, prison officers and probation trusts. Along with other organisations, the trade union Cuts to social welfare legal aid will leave the most movement sees that these changes will have a severe vulnerable without any legal support. It is a one-size-fits-all impact on health and safety. The employer who injures approach to remodelling the civil justice system that the employee will have no sanction imposed on him if threatens to render many areas of law unenforceable. the employee is discouraged or prevented from pursuing The Bill is unworkable, with a departmental cut of a legitimate claim for injury caused by the employer’s 23%. It is hardly the rehabilitation revolution promised negligence. It is ironic that we are debating this on the by the Justice Secretary. The 23% cut to the Ministry of day the Health and Safety Executive announced a huge Justice budget means 10,000 fewer front-line staff in increase—more than 170 in the past year—in workplace prisons and in probation, and a 50% reduction in capital deaths. The trade union movement has a long and spending on the prison estate. The cuts are intended to proven history of protecting its members, but that will save £130 million, with a 3,500 reduction in the prison be adversely affected by the Bill’s proposed changes. population. Undoubtedly the planned cuts will create Members have spoken about mediation, in respect of massive problems with regard to the future security of which there is cross-party support. The Government’s prisons, the condition of the prison estate, and the preferred option is not suitable for all, but it is an safety of prison officers and their capacity to maintain important tool in dealing with family breakdown. The order. It is an absolute nonsense for the Government to Justice Committee and the family justice review have speak of the plans to improve rehabilitation and cut warned of the impact on vulnerable people, specifically reoffending while cutting the number of prison and those affected by domestic violence. probation officers, and allowing the prison estate to be degraded. Mrs Louise Mensch (Corby) (Con): Will the hon. There are three parts to the Bill: legal aid, litigation Gentleman make it clear that mediation is not suitable and funding costs, and sentencing and punishment of in all cases, especially those involving domestic violence, offenders. Like other hon. Members, I want to focus on for which legal aid will remain available? the proposals for personal injury cases in the Jackson report, the precursor to the Bill. Jackson proposed that Ian Lavery: If the hon. Lady had been present earlier the after-the-event insurance premium becomes the in the debate she would have heard hon. Members on responsibility of the claimant; that there is qualified both sides of the House discuss that point. one-way cost shifting to the defendant except in specific The cuts to legal aid are likely to provide no real circumstances; that success fees are paid by the claimant; saving to the public purse but will lead to courts struggling that referral fees are banned; and that there is a new test to cope as the weak and vulnerable struggle to represent for proportionality. Those strong recommendations for themselves. Should not the weakest and most vulnerable reform are a package that needs to be implemented in have the same access to justice as those with plenty of full. The Bill does not deal with one of the most serious finance behind them? The Bill fails to ensure fairness issues, the proposal to ban referral fees. across the board and is, as many Members have said, an There are no proposals to ban referral fees. One utter shambles. cannot have failed to become aware of the furore in the past two or three days created by the “revelation” of the market in road traffic accident claims. It now seems 4.18 pm difficult to see which intermediary is not in receipt of a Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): The Lord Chancellor’s fee for selling on a claim. This cannot continue and statement last week bore the worst hallmarks of the should result in the banning of the payment of referral Budget speech delivered by the right hon. Member for fees. Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown): all the good Many people were caught by surprise by this week’s stuff was announced but all the catastrophes were laid revelations by insurance companies. They were shocked out in the small print. to hear that profits were being made from the sale of In his statement last week the Justice Secretary proclaimed personal information, but some of us have been complaining that the best way to reduce crime is to reduce reoffending—a vigorously about this practice for many years. The point to which many can, I am sure, subscribe—but his failure to ban referral fees is yet another example of the stance on indeterminate sentences shows beyond all double standards that operate. doubt that, despite what he says, reoffending is not his No legitimate claimant should be deterred from bringing main priority for the Bill or the criminal justice system. a claim, and with no win, no fee no sensible lawyer The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) would pursue a claim they did not have a reasonable kindly mentioned the question I put to the Secretary of prospect of winning. Make no mistake: this presents a State yesterday. The reoffending rates among those 1023 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1024 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Philip Davies] The provision is not mandatory anyway because it is later stated that people do not have to be sent to prison released from prison on indeterminate sentences are if there are particular circumstances that relate to the among the lowest in the criminal justice system. If the offence or the offender that would make it unjust to do Lord Chancellor’s priority is reoffending, why on earth so. So much for it being mandatory. It is a joke. does he want to get rid of one of the parts of the Clauses 56 and 57 are further examples of the Lord criminal justice system with the lowest rate of reoffending? Chancellor’s aim of sending fewer people to prison. Clause 56(2)(a) removes the duty of the court to impose Anna Soubry: Will my hon. Friend please understand more onerous conditions once someone breaches a this? When someone is subject to an IPP, they have no community order or to resentence them to custody. It knowledge about when they will be released. Does he says that the court “may” do so instead of saying that it know that they can be released only when they are “must”, as currently applies. deemed no longer to be a risk to society? A relatively Clause 56(2)(b) allows the court to impose a fine as a small number of people have been released and we can punishment for breaching a community order. That assume that they were released only because they were provision did not exist before. Clause 57 increases the no longer deemed a risk to society. The reason for that length of sentence that can be suspended from a maximum is that they have been on the sort of courses that other of 51 weeks to two years and removes the need to attach people on IPPs have not had the benefit of. The lack of any community requirements at all. If a criminal has courses is the real problem. committed an offence that deserves a custodial sentence of up to two years in prison, that is what they should Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. May get: a two-year sentence in prison. Furthermore, if I ask for shorter interventions because many Members someone is given a suspended sentence with no wish to speak and I want to try to get everyone in? requirements, they will effectively not be punished at all. As I said a couple of weeks ago, breaches of suspended Philip Davies: My hon. Friend is right that people are sentences can now result in a fine, thanks to clause 58. released only when it is safe to release them. My constituents Anybody who breaches their existing get-out-of-jail-free think that it is rather a good thing that people are suspended sentence should go to one place only: immediate released from prison only when it is safe to do so. I am custody. Is it any wonder that the British public have no all for that, unlike the Lord Chancellor. faith in sentencing? The criminal justice system can be The reason that the Lord Chancellor is not bothered effective only if the public have confidence in it. about reoffending and indeterminate sentences is that The Bill also fails to extend a magistrate’s power of he is not interested in reoffending at all. What then is his sentencing to up to 12 months, yet that was a firm priority? It is the same as it has always been: simply manifesto commitment. Not only are we not implementing reducing the number of criminals in prison. That is what was already in the law, we are repealing that part highlighted in the Bill’s explanatory notes, which state: of the law in this Bill. We have already heard at length “The overall impact of the sentencing proposals will result in how schedule 10 removes the ability of the courts to annual savings of approximately £80m in 2014/15, due to a remand somebody in custody, to try to make it harder reduction in the demand for prison places of 2,650”. for people to be remanded in custody so that they are I invite all my hon. Friends to look back at what they instead granted bail. In the previous Parliament, the promised their constituents at the general election in last Labour Government introduced the mechanism their personal manifestos and at what they said against that time spent on bail on a tag could be knocked off a their opponents at the hustings. Which of those who prison sentence in the same way as time spent on will vote for the Bill tonight said at the hustings that remand is knocked off a prison sentence. We were they were standing on a platform of reducing the number apoplectic with rage about that, and my hon. and of criminals sent to prison by 2,650? I suspect that none learned Friend the current Solicitor-General said when of us said that and I invite my hon. Friends to consider we were in opposition that this proposal that when they decide how to vote tonight. “will cause a great deal of scepticism, undermine public confidence in the justice system and make the Government look increasingly I am also concerned about the widely reported mandatory ridiculous if the court is then required to say, ‘By the way, all the six-month sentence for thugs who use knives to threaten time that you have spent at home in bed is time that can be taken people. As I have already shown, this is a solution away from your custodial sentence.’”—[Official Report, 9 January looking for a problem, because the sentencing guidelines 2008; Vol. 470, c. 369.] already insist that such cases are sent to Crown court I could not agree more. The only difference is that I still for a first offence because it is deemed that magistrates believe that this is wrong, whereas my Front-Bench do not have sufficient sentencing powers. colleagues have gone from thinking it was utterly ridiculous It gets worse. On threatening with knives, clause 113 to formalising the policy as part of the Bill. Of course, states: the other measure to which we were wholly opposed in “It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this the previous Parliament was the automatic release of section to prove good reason or lawful authority for having the people halfway through their prison sentence, and that, article with him or her in the place…concerned.” too, is formalised in this Bill. That is a reasonable defence for possession of a knife, The British public are losing faith in the criminal but how is it a reasonable defence for using a knife justice system. One only has to look at the Populus threateningly just to be able to explain why one has the polling carried out by Lord Ashcroft that showed that knife in the first place? Either that is a drafting error or 80% of the public—80% of victims of crime, 80% of it is a complete nonsense. Perhaps the Minister will police officers—thinks that sentences for convicted offenders enlighten us in his reply. are already too lenient. When asked how they expected 1025 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1026 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill the new coalition Government would compare on crime My Bill also suggested a reform of the indeterminate with the last Labour Government, more than 50% of public protection sentence. I understand from the Lord those polled said they expected them to be tougher. Chancellor that there is to be a review of that. That is When asked their views a year after the coalition welcome, but the devil will be in the detail. The review is Government came to office, only 13% thought the long overdue, and something must be done. As the hon. Government had been tougher, whereas 23% thought Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) has said, one of they were less tough. That perception is a disaster for the main problems is that there are no courses for those the Conservative brand, and this Bill will only further people. That is the backlog—where the wall is. I am weaken our position. glad that those sentences will be looked at. I continue to All the above shows that this Bill is not the rehabilitation press the argument that participation in offender revolution or the reduced reoffending revolution we management programmes should be taken into account were promised; rather, it is a release revolution that will when deciding whether to release a prisoner on early simply catapult more criminals out on to the streets to release. All things considered, I am glad about that commit more crimes. I do not know if the Lord Chancellor provision. is trying to break the world record for the number of I come now the disappointing aspects of the Bill. As I manifesto pledges broken in one Bill, but if he is, he has have indicated, any attempt by the Ministry of Justice made a good fist of it. to suggest that the reforms in the Bill aim to make the criminal justice system fairer are undermined at the 4.27 pm outset by the provisions in part 1, which will result in Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I am cuts of roughly £450 million a year to the legal aid going to speak against much of this Bill, but probably budget. The consultation document boasts that legal not as vehemently as the previous speaker. aid will be retained in cases in which people’s life or liberty is at stake, in which they face the threat of The Bill serves two purposes: it attempts to advance serious harm or immediate loss of their home, or in and also to set back our legal system. I am reminded of which their children will be taken into care. It is almost the section in Lewis Carroll’s “Through the Looking as if we are meant to applaud that magnanimous decision, Glass” in which the heroine, Alice, takes one step forward but the self-same document proposes to slash legal aid only to find herself taking two paces back. Some of the for almost all private family law, clinical negligence, proposed sentencing reforms in part 3 of the Bill will employment and immigration cases, and all but the tidy up the current sentencing framework by correcting most severe debt, housing and welfare benefits cases. some anomalies to do with release on licence, yet the concurrent cuts to legal aid we are being asked to push Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Does the right forward would hijack any claim our legal system has to hon. Gentleman agree that the timing of the proposals being just. In my contribution, I will briefly set out my is particularly difficult? They are being made at a time thoughts on both aspects of the Bill. when the Government are proposing major changes to Although I have mentioned Lewis Carroll, I hope it the welfare system. Many who will wish to challenge will not seem too topsy-turvy for me to start by considering unfair decisions will be left without access to legal aid at the end of the Bill. As I have mentioned, part 3 introduces the time of most need. some positive reforms, and I am particularly interested in clauses 93 to 96. In February, I introduced a ten-minute Mr Llwyd: The hon. Lady is absolutely right and has rule Bill with the aim of correcting various anomalies in hit on an important point. In any event, this is the sentencing, and I am pleased that some of them have wrong time for this Bill. I hope that the Government been included in the Bill. My Bill’s aim was to ensure pause in Committee to think again. that prisoners serving determinate sentences of four years or more, as well as those on indeterminate sentences As I set out in my contribution to the legal aid debate for public protection, are released back into the community in February, if the legal aid reforms are implemented, only when a parole board has determined that they are they will create a market for legal aid, which will be of low risk to the public. Harry Fletcher of the National driven by cost rather than by the needs of clients. The Association of Probation Officers assisted me in making most vulnerable people, including those with mental those arguments. Incidentally, my Bill also argued for health problems and other disabilities, will find it almost the ability to have regard to mental health problems impossible to gain access to free legal advice, because when sentencing convicted persons. I am pleased that their cases will be too complex for firms to take on. The clause 62 goes some way towards realising that. MOJ’s equality impact assessment acknowledges that Under section 244 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, the losers will predominantly be women, ethnic minorities when a fixed-term prisoner has served the requisite and disabled or ill people at 57%, 26% and 20% respectively. custodial period, the Secretary of State should release The proposals about which I was most concerned— them on licence. Since 2005, however, those serving four removing ancillary relief and private family proceedings years or more have come out after serving only 50% of from the scope of legal aid—remain largely unchanged, their sentences, regardless of what progress they make despite respondents, including me, arguing that not all in prison. My Bill proposed to add a subsection that cases can be successfully diverted to mediation; that would have ensured that before the release of a person without early legal advice fewer cases would settle, sentenced to four years or more in prison, the Parole increasing the burden on both courts and those involved Board must be satisfied that the individual is at low risk in disputes; and that decisions should be delayed until of harm to the public and of reoffending. Clause 94 the outcome of the family justice review. Those pleas goes one step forward in that regard, in that those have fallen on deaf ears. Ancillary matters, such as child released will not automatically be eligible for home custody and maintenance, will not be dealt with sensibly, detention curfew. I am afraid, and it is difficult to overestimate the 1027 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1028 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Llwyd] worry, you’ll only get a caution.” Is there really a clamour from victims of crime for the increased use of devastating effect that that will wreak on children caught cautioning by the police? up in these kinds of disputes. I speak as someone with Other powers sought in the Bill are simply unworkable. 30 years’ experience in family cases, both as a solicitor Clause 12 allows the provision of legal advice at police and a barrister—I should declare that many of those stations to be means-tested. Before Labour Members cases were publicly funded. get too excited, I should say that the only reason why In their response to the consultation, the Government that was not introduced through the back door by the conceded that legal aid should be available for victims previous Labour Government was that the High Court of domestic violence. That is an important step, since in stopped them. The provision simply will not work. a 2005 study by Tridner et al 53% of women reported Legal advice at police stations is guaranteed by Act of physical or emotional abuse as a cause of separation. Parliament. If the police were anxious to interview Sir Nicholas Wall, president of the family division, has someone who was self-employed and did not have three pointed out how “ill advised” the Government are to years of accounts on him when arrested, what would concentrate on domestic violence alone. Abuse, as Sir happen? Someone would have to sit down and work out Nicholas said, is much broader and can be psychological, whether they qualified for assistance. There is no basis financial and/or emotional. One-size-fits-all solutions for bringing that sort of provision into the criminal simply do not work with the complexities of our justice justice system. system. The Bill also introduces a knife crime offence that The cuts to legal aid will increase rates of injustice, already exists in at least two other statutes. It does not which is difficult to square with what the Prime Minister mean that jail for carrying a knife is automatic—and said about the reforms. He said last week at a press nor should it. The young ex-soldier I represented who conference on the wider proposed reforms that his had been blown up in Kosovo and who had a knife in mission was to make sure that families felt safe in their his coat as he walked through Middlesbrough for reasons homes—a worthy aim, of course, but there are many, he did not really feel able to explain should not be sent many problems with the detail of the Bill. Vulnerable to prison automatically because he falls foul of legislation. people will be left to go it alone. As Justice has said: There has to be room for discretion. Sentences of up to “The duty of a democratic state should be to ensure that four years are already available to the courts, and if the members of society abide by, and benefit from, the provisions of new offence in clause 113 is to be introduced, I invite the the law.” Minister to review its wording. The current wording Both considerations appear missing from the cuts. certainly creates an offence, but it will also create practical Hon. Members do not need to take it from me how difficulties for prosecutors seeking to secure convictions. dangerous these moves are. The European Court of There are positive measures in the Bill. The Legal Human Rights has criticised them, as has the United Services Commission is dysfunctional, and it is a courageous Nations Committee on Human Rights and the UN but necessary decision to bring it in-house. Already the Human Rights Council. Our justice system should serve inability to process legal aid forms is causing delays of everybody, not the few, but these cuts to legal aid are months, which are unfair to victims and a waste of crude, cumbersome and callous. The cuts to the scope resources. The LSC’s inability to process payments threatens of legal aid will undermine not only the reforms that the jobs in small businesses and is a disgrace. If a template Government are promoting, but, if the cuts are for how to do that job well is required, the Minister implemented, the very principles on which our justice should visit the Armed Forces Criminal Legal Aid system rests. Authority, at which a small group of people working in a portakabin demonstrate what can be achieved. 4.37 pm Other aspects of the Bill appear to cause concern but in reality do not. Schedule 10 might not be a good Simon Reevell: I declare an interest in accordance advert for drafting, but it does nothing to change the with the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, as I status quo as far as the granting of bail is concerned. have practised as a barrister since 1990. The double negative involved means that the absconder There is not much in the Bill that is not about saving or the reoffender will not benefit from those provisions. money, which, in itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. I Elsewhere in the Bill, unfortunately, positive features—of am afraid, however, that some of the proposals could which there are some—are overshadowed by the steps undermine confidence in the system. On the criminal being introduced to achieve savings. An example of that law side, one example is how the Bill makes provision is clause 57, which takes away the mandatory requirement for the greater use of cautioning. West Yorkshire police, to impose a community sentence alongside a suspended who operate in my constituency, are an innovative force sentence. There are occasions on which that is simply pioneering a scheme called “In the Dock”, which displays unnecessary and is a waste of resources as far as the photographs and details of convicted criminals on the probation is concerned, but, as my hon. Friend the Member internet. They hope that it will act as a deterrent and for Shipley (Philip Davies) has indicated, the clause also provide reassurance. It might work, but at the same moves back up to two years the length of sentence that time victims and the wider public might be more reassured, can be suspended. Suspended sentences have been and potential criminals might be better deterred, if the fashionable, then unfashionable and become fashionable same force did not caution thousands and thousands of again over the past 20 years, but the effect of the criminals each year, including for sex and violent offences. measure is that a sentence of 18 months, which currently The Bill encourages cautioning for adults, however, has to be served, could in future be suspended. I agree together with the greater use of fixed-penalty notices. with my hon. Friend that sentences of more than 12 months That is cheaper, sure, but the message goes out, “Don’t really ought to be served. 1029 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1030 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Let me address the measures on civil courts, in across the spectrum in ending the health in maternity which decent people who have suffered dreadful loss grant, ending the education maintenance allowance, through personal injury or clinical negligence receive cutting Sure Start and increasing tuition fees will mean financial compensation to offset their suffering—and that life is harder for the people who sent me to Parliament. no more than that. There is no profit element to a This Bill is yet another instalment in what they are victim’s damages, and a victim of surgical error can be doing to the people of Gorton and the people of as much a victim as a victim of crime. Some of those Manchester. In the past two years, two independent victims are children whose births were so badly mismanaged advice centres in my city have closed down. Manchester that they will never become adults. I remember acting Advice, which had about 100 staff providing advice on for one such child: not only was he going to require welfare rights, housing and consumer affairs and debt, 24-hour care for the rest of his life, but his parents had closed in April. All that is left is the community legal not even been told by the hospital how long that life advice service and a couple of solicitors who have a would be. When I told them that number at a meeting—it contract for rather less than £3 million over three years was not a large one—two of the most dignified people I but are facing a 10% cut in October. In any case, none of have ever met looked at each other said, “Well, at least the specialists’ work will be funded when the contract we’ll always be young enough to look after him properly.” expires in two years’ time. The compensation they received was carefully costed to South Manchester Law Centre in my constituency provide only what was necessary and no more. struggles on with a small immigration contract. The The Bill introduces the concept that the successful situation is such that the law centre may well be destroyed, claimant should pay part of their costs from the damages. and that is the body to which my constituents with The idea that this might make people more involved in immigration problems have to turn. That means that the claim may have a certain appeal, but in reality it they will increasingly have to turn to their Member of means that that element will have to be funded from Parliament or pay exorbitant sums to grasping, greedy damages that are awarded for pain and suffering. In solicitors. There are now only two legal aid immigration practical terms it means that although someone wins advice providers in Manchester, but within three miles their case, not all the steps around their house can have a of South Manchester Law Centre there are 50 solicitors’ ramp and not all the doors in the property can be widened. firms, and at least the same number of non-solicitors, In clinical negligence claims, a claimant inevitably all anxious to part vulnerable people from their money. requires expert medical evidence. As that is expensive On Friday evening, I shall have my constituency surgery, the claimant can take out a policy to insure against the and people will come to me and tell me of the hundreds cost, if the claim fails. At present, that is recoverable of pounds they are being forced to pay because of the from the other side and will remain so, but only in lack of adequate free advice that is so essential to them. clinical negligence cases. If the same injuries with the Again and again, this Bill damages the people who same consequences occurred as a result of a surgeon can least survive the damage. In Manchester, there will driving into the victim, rather than performing a negligent be some £2 million-worth of cuts in the civil legal aid operation, the premium will have to be paid by the budget, approximately two thirds of which are successful claimant from the damages they receive. That directed at people who are currently eligible for legal seems strange, because the people who will be affected aid, while one third will come from remuneration cuts by it are not ambulance chasers or part of a compensation to providers who will be expected to do the same work culture, but innocent victims. The offer of a safety net for less money. All that affects the same people who that requires claimants to demonstrate human right have been hit by the cuts in public service delivery. The violations in order to get justice is a poor solution. majority of the 6,500 people in our area who have used We should prosecute those who should be prosecuted the civil legal aid service come from low-income and jail those who should be jailed. We should make households, and they are predominantly women, black provision that allows those whose lives are ruined not and minority ethnic people and sick and disabled people. by crime but by the negligence of others to achieve People with mental health problems and other disabilities proper redress. We should, because we must, look to experience much higher rates of unemployment, make savings, but savings in the justice budget must not homelessness and discrimination, and they will be become synonymous with providing less justice. disproportionately affected. Again and again, we hear examples of how people in 4.45 pm my constituency and more widely will be damaged. The Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): areas of welfare benefit, employment and debt, except This Bill has not had a good reception on either side of for cases in which the client’s home is at immediate risk, the House of Commons. Several hon. Members have will be removed completely from the legal aid remit, referred to the impact of these changes on women who and such access as there will be to legal aid will become suffer domestic violence and who will be ineligible for more difficult. For example, the community legal advice legal aid under the Bill because the evidence that they helpline has an 0845 prefix, which is expensive for will be required to present is far too restrictive. Because people to dial and, in addition, people want and need of these proposals, there is likely to be an increase in the face-to-face advice. They do not want to talk to somebody number of women being cross-examined by a perpetrator who will not be able to see or assess them; they want in detail about the physical or sexual violence that she advice from other human beings who care about them. has experienced. That will mean that a woman who is People with learning disabilities and mental health already a victim will be re-victimised. issues prefer to receive advice in person in order to pick My constituency is one of the most deprived in up on non-verbal signals and to build the trust necessary the country. The latest figures show that we have to talk about their problems, because people are shy, 9.7% unemployment. What the Government have done reluctant and, sometimes, ashamed to talk about their 1031 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1032 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Sir Gerald Kaufman] I believe that prison works. It works because it takes the young offenders away from their chaotic lifestyles problems. Women who suffer domestic violence put up and puts them where work can be done. The Lord with it because they are ashamed to talk about it and Chancellor mentioned “radical reform”, but I would ashamed about getting into the predicament. like to see radical reform that introduces really serious We are faced with a Government who are taking drug rehabilitation programmes. I would like sentences away from people who need them services that members to be served in full so that work can be done with these of the Government do not need and have never needed, people when they come into the prison or YOI. so they do not understand the damage that they are One of the main problems with reoffending was that causing. I say to the Government and to the many once people left the YOI, there was no housing for Government Members who have had the decency to them. The probation officers used to tell me, “We have talk about their misgivings, let us try to improve the nowhere for them to live.” So they would go back to the Bill, because people’s lives, well-being, peace of mind squats and the friends they had been with before, and and domestic situations all depend upon it. We cannot therefore straight back into the lifestyle that put them go on like this—victimising those who are already victims. into the YOI. They became recidivists and ended up back in prison. That is where the social impact bond Several hon. Members rose— scheme in Peterborough is doing so well and where its real strength could lie. Let prison work and ensure that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Just people serve their sentences in full. Do not put 2,650 people before I bring the next speaker in, I am going to reduce back into the chaotic environments they came from. the time limit to six minutes. We still have 20 speakers to Ensure that we have true prison reform so that they go come, and I do want to get everybody in, so anybody somewhere they can receive true education and be taught who can shave a little time off that will be gratefully skills, come off drugs and build up their confidence. Put welcomed. them into the institutions because prison can work. Will the Minister confirm when he winds up whether 4.53 pm it is the case that private prisons in the UK operate at a Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): I thank cost that is 40% less than state prisons? If so, why are we the Secretary of State and Lord Chancellor for bringing looking at putting 2,650 prisoners back on the streets to forward a balanced and pragmatic Bill that identifies save costs? Why do we not take on the Prison Officers problems that have built up over a longer period, but I, Association and address the reason why it costs 40% like many colleagues, have several concerns about the more to run state prisons than it does private prisons? sentencing and legal aid proposals. Speeches have been Why not look at marketeering in prison reform as well cut to six minutes, but my hon. Friend the Member for as in education and health? Dewsbury (Simon Reevell) highlighted subtly and My main point is that people should not be put back beautifully all the points that I wanted to make about out on the streets: we should make prison work. We clinical negligence, so there is no point in me making have institutions that can offer everything that people any of them again. need—education, skills training—to ensure that they do not offend when they get out. I should like to discuss the sentencing proposals, however. Before I became a Member in 2005, I spent 4.57 pm three years working for the current Minister of State, Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): As I am the West Dorset (Mr Letwin), who during that time was chair of the all-party group on legal aid, it will come as shadow Home Secretary. For a year, I went in and out no surprise that I wish to speak today mostly about the of prisons and, for most of that time, in and out of proposals to reform legal aid. However, I first wish to young offenders institutions throughout the country. take issue with the attempt by the Government to legitimise the cuts in legal aid by insisting that England One observation that I made during that year was and Wales have by far the most expensive legal aid that the young offenders all came from chaotic system in the world. The one piece of research that has backgrounds. They had learning disabilities, many had been done on this is on the Ministry of Justice website mental health issues, very few had had a father at home and it says that it does not compare like with like. It is and many had drug problems. They could not read or an interesting piece of research and I commend it to write, they lacked confidence and they had had very hon. Members. little education, mainly because no one had been there to take them to school from an early age. They had Legal aid is the smallest proportion of the justice never got into the routine of attending school, and their budget and it is the hardest hit. More than 5,000 individuals lives before they entered the young offenders institution and groups responded to the consultation and 90% said, were abysmal. “Do not take social welfare law out of scope”. I stress that these were not fat cat lawyers, worried about their The YOIs gave them three meals a day, however; they income, but individuals and organisations who see the got into a routine whereby they went to bed at night and effect that the proposals will have on their most needy got up in the mornings; they were introduced to drug and vulnerable clients—those who are least able to rehabilitation programmes; they had a chance to learn defend themselves. such skills as bricklaying; some of them painted for the first time in their lives and learned how to be decorators; Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Does the hon. and at Thorneywood YOI in Warrington they worked Lady agree that the reforms will be a tragedy for the in the kitchens for a while with the caterers. It was good citizens advice bureaux, which have a tremendous reputation to see the work that was being done with some of the for serving those very disadvantaged individuals who people in those institutions. will lose out as a result of these cuts in legal aid? 1033 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1034 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Yvonne Fovargue: I accept that point and I will address fair or economic way in which to deal with the problem. the effect on citizens advice bureaux and other advice Dealing with debt at an early stage ensures that priority agencies later in my speech. debts are not ignored to pay the clamorous non-priority The Government’s impact assessment acknowledges creditors and, most important of all, it takes away the that the losers will be predominantly women, people extreme levels of stress and depression that any threat from ethnic minority backgrounds and the ill and of losing a home or possession, imminent or not, causes disabled—yet another example of the most vulnerable to individuals. In 2009, the Legal Services Research bearing the brunt of the cuts. Centre found that unresolved debt matters cost the public purse more than £1,000 on average. Legal aid for It is worth reminding the House why the scope of each debt cases costs £196. The figures speak for themselves. legal aid was extended to include social welfare law, and why advice agencies and not-for-profit advisers were I could go further but I would like the Minister to able to enter the field. The Labour Government recognised answer some questions. What is his Department doing that it was cost effective to provide early intervention to address the impact of the Government proposals on and advice and help with dealing with a cluster of the advice sector? What assessment has he made of the problems. Dealing with problems at an early stage stopped availability of advice in 2013? What assessment has people reaching crisis point and turning to other more been made of the effect on the tribunals service of expensive Government-funded services. increasing numbers of people representing themselves? Finally, has any assessment been made of the cost to the The Government recognised that advice agencies, public purse of not providing access to social welfare such as the CAB, had expertise in this area and could law under the legal aid scheme? provide an effective and a trusted delivery mechanism. Not all bureaux have contracts, but more than 200 do, and they have more than 1,500 outlets that provide 5.4 pm advice. Throughout the country, they provide specialist Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): I would like to speak services that are funded by the Legal Services Commission. about the criminal justice system and our sentencing Without this funding, the viability of all those outlets policy as reflected in the Bill. I declare my interest: I and their main bureaux is under threat coupled as it is practised as a criminal barrister for some 16 years with cuts to local authority funding, loss of primary before being elected to the House. care trust funding and no certainty about the financial If there was ever a man without a plan, it was the inclusion fund. right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan). He and In 2010, 3,080 cases in my own borough were procured the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and, by the LSC. If these plans go through, there will be a indeed, many other Opposition Members really should 76% cut in those cases. Some 2,342 people will be hang their heads in shame. After 13 years of a Labour denied access to justice. The total loss of funding in Government, we are faced with a legacy of complete Wigan will be £428,000. Behind those figures are people, failure in the criminal justice system. Yet again, rather including the woman who attended my local CAB like the deficit, it falls on this Government to clear up because she was being prosecuted for fraud by the the mess left by Labour. Department for Work and Pensions. She was told that she owed £26,000, but after three appeals, it was found Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): Does that she owed less than £300 due to departmental the hon. Lady not accept that crime fell by 43% under errors. the previous Government? As a criminal barrister, she There was also the couple who had borrowed money really ought to acknowledge that fact. to adapt their property for their disabled child. After her unexpected death, they could no longer maintain all Anna Soubry: I am afraid that I do not accept that the repayments due to the drop in their income and they figure. I do not think that things are as simple as that. had the bailiffs at their door. Then there was the woman For example, as the Lord Chancellor explained, the in the secure mental health unit who needed help after theft statistics have fallen because of the protection that she had been refused disability living allowance and had is now afforded to motor vehicles. Antisocial behaviour had her jobseeker’s allowance suspended for not attending is not a recordable offence. I know from my own experiences an interview. I could go on but each example demonstrates in Nottinghamshire that the police are almost bending that it is the vulnerable who are losing out, and they are over backwards not to record criminal activities as now losing those who are there to speak out for them. recordable offences. So I cast real doubt on those statistics. The timing of such cuts, with the Welfare Reform Bill The hon. Gentleman talks about statistics, so let us coming in in 2013, is absolutely appalling. People’s listen to those on the legacy that we have inherited. Our fundamental right to have a decent income and to live prisons are full to bursting. Reoffending grew under without fear of debt is being removed. The loss of legal Labour to 61.1% for offenders who serve short sentences. aid in welfare law means that people are also losing the Half of adults leaving jail are reconvicted within a year, ability to hold Government Departments to account. and 74% of young people sentenced to youth custody The DWP already loses more than 60% of its cases, and and 68% of young people on community sentences those cases will now no longer be challenged by advice reoffend within a year. Those are the damning statistics. agencies. That is the legacy, and that is the reality. Demand for debt advice is also going up, as rising We face other realities as we approach those difficulties. prices, static wages and job losses mean that people can Prisons are awash with drugs. How many people are no longer afford to maintain payments. Tackling the astounded to hear that there are things called drug-free issue when it reaches crisis point and people are in wings? Hon. Members might suppose that all our jails imminent danger of losing their home is not a sensible, should be free of drugs, but unfortunately they are not. 1035 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1036 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Anna Soubry] I am afraid that the clock is against me; I wanted to talk about IPPs. I welcome the Government’s proposals Some people actually turn for the first time to class A and I look forward to the consultation. I also put in a drugs because they are in custody. I know from my quick plug for the hon. Member for Kingston upon experience of the people whom I represented that not Hull East (Karl Turner), who is determined to increase only are drugs freely available in prisons, but they are sentences for dangerous driving, which is a thoroughly often cheaper on the inside than out on the street. That good idea. The Bill is a mixture of soft and hard. It is is the legacy that we inherit. realistic, given the circumstances, and I commend it Too many of our prisoners languish in 23-hour bang-up, thoroughly to the House. because they cannot get on to courses and no work for them is available. The Bill specifically addresses such 5.12 pm difficulties and issues, and I want to herald the proposals and want them to triumph. That will mean that people Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): It is in prison will actually work. They will earn money that always an absolute pleasure to follow the hon. Member will go back to the people who are the victims of the for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry). I agree with some of what crime. We are introducing good and right measures that she says, and certainly with her remarks on my Bill will go a long way to ensure that prison works. At the about dangerous driving. moment, prison does not work. That is why we have I do not disagree with everything that the Government those reoffending rates, why prisons are awash with propose in the Bill, but I have concerns about parts of drugs and why so many prisoners are on 23-hour bang-up. it. On civil liberties, for example, clause 12, which seeks We must not take a simplistic and broad-brush approach to limit advice and assistance in a police station, is a to sentencing. With great respect to many hon. Members, mistake. It is no good for the Government to say that that is, unfortunately, what they do. The Bill achieves a the previous Government proposed to do similar things; difficult and delicate balance: it recognises the need to I am concerned about what this Government are doing. reform, but it does so within the financial restrictions Section 58(1) of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act and realities that this nation faces. Those who say 1984 provides that people in a police station are entitled simply, “Bang ’em all up and throw away the key” fail to legal advice from a solicitor in private consultation. then to say how much that would cost and how on earth That absolutely must remain. Clause 52 proposes to we would pay for it. prevent people from recovering defence costs in Crown The Bill recognises the failures of too many short-term courts. If they pay their own fees, they will be prevented sentences, as well as the fact that some people need to from recovering their costs if they are successful at trial. spend longer in prison. We are now considering the That is a mistake. reform of indeterminate sentences for public protection. I am concerned that the Government seem to be The last Government changed the distinction between ignoring advice. Some of it is very good—the hon. short and long-term imprisonment, which fell at four Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) years. Under their legislation, there was no such distinction. made some superb remarks about what effects she Those who got four years served three quarters of their thinks the Government’s plans will have—but the sentence; those who got less than four years served half. Government seem to be passing it off as irrelevant and Labour abolished that, so that all prisoners on determinate unimportant. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for sentences were automatically released halfway through. Broxtowe says that that is not right, but I have seen it. We are now considering reforming imprisonment for The Bar Council has provided detailed proposals for public protection so that the most serious offenders alternative savings. I have seen no evidence of the return to serving three quarters of their sentence. We Government’s acknowledging those proposals. That also should welcome the measures, as I certainly do. applies to Law Society proposals. I agree with the I am grateful that the Government have listened and remarks of the Bar Council, my professional body, that consulted, especially among those of us who have only the Bill represents do-it-yourself justice, not access to recently returned from the front line of the criminal justice. justice system. I welcome the fact that we will not increase the amount of discount for a guilty plea to Of course, solicitors, whether family or criminal— 50%. I spoke out against that without any difficulty. I whatever the nature of the practice—are bound to want urge the Government to go further and consider freeing to protect themselves from cuts to their businesses. our judges so that there is no mandatory figure. In some However, in my experience, publicly funded lawyers do cases, a discount of more than 50% is needed and would not act just for money but because they want to help be welcomed, while in other cases, there should be no people, give them advice and protect them from often discount however early a plea is entered. My message to complex law. Lawyers always say that law is complex—we the Government is to free our judges. are bound to do that. I say it constantly, even to myself. I know that many Government and Opposition Members However, it is genuinely difficult, and the procedure is have concerns about legal aid. I urge the Government to often complicated. Lay people struggle with the most ensure that the poorest and most vulnerable in our basic proceedings, and I have real concerns about the society continue to have access to legal aid, especially Government’s agenda. It is truly the most vulnerable women, who might be abandoned by feckless and who will suffer the consequences of the Government’s adulterous husbands or partners who leave them penniless proposals. while themselves remaining in funds. Such women will Let us consider only a few of the matters that will be not have access to legal aid to ensure that they are outside the scope of legal aid provision: clinical negligence, properly sorted out in the proceedings on divorce and criminal injuries compensation, debt, education and ancillary relief for them and their children. We must employment. It is madness. Providing employment advice protect them. and assistance saves money in the long run. If a client 1037 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1038 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill goes to an experienced employment solicitor with and I do not doubt it. I agree heartily with the strategy instructions about a case, the solicitor is often the filter of discouraging too much litigation, particularly at a that prevents them from completing what is nowadays cost to the public purse. But surely the challenge that we called an ET1 and getting it to a tribunal. That prevents are setting ourselves is to fillet out areas of waste while costs in the long run. The Government have failed to leaving intact the essential service of legal aid for the recognise that. most vulnerable. I wonder whether the cuts as currently set out fall too Rehman Chishti: Employment tribunals do not currently harshly in an area that has as its sole objective the have the power to order costs. What about a position support for people who are least able to speak up for whereby a malicious claim is made, someone defends themselves. As the hon. Member for Kingston upon their character and fights all the way but cannot be Hull East (Karl Turner) said, that area is not replete awarded costs at the end? Does the hon. Gentleman with fat cat lawyers; it is mostly populated by men and think that that needs to change? women who are committed to helping the most needy in their communities. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] As Karl Turner: I am not sure. I do not think that I have we know, not everyone is able to speak up for themselves. time to consider the hon. Gentleman’s point properly We talk of telephone lines and of self-representations at and give him a fair answer. It worries me that, although tribunals, which are things that MPs could do, although the Government are trying to save money, not providing naturally we hope not to be in that situation, but which advice and assistance at this early stage will cost them many people who are less educated simply cannot. much more in the long run. Excluding housing law and welfare benefits will mean I therefore ask the Government to consider carefully the most vulnerable in society suffering the most. The the issue of taking welfare benefits out of scope. That Chairman of the Bar said: phrase needs some explanation; when talking to colleagues I have found that not everyone understands it. What it “The Government has failed to listen to the views expressed by many in the judiciary, the legal profession and voluntary organisations means is professional advice going to people who need in formulating its proposals on legal aid. it, regarding their welfare claims on the ground. It sounds trivial but it is absolutely not. This is about Legal aid will be withdrawn from whole swathes of areas of law and access to justice will be systematically deprived.” critical sums of money for families who need every penny—and, by the way, most of these situations do not I agree entirely. He does not have an axe to grind. He involve a lawyer. has been in the profession for a terribly long time and should be respected for his professional opinion. In Hastings, three agencies have come together. They I could mention many solicitors in my area who have have a contract for £270,000, and last year they gave contacted me in recent days to warn me of the dangers face-to-face service to 1,500 people—detailed advice of lack of access to justice. They make those points not and support, often including accompanying them to because they are worried about not buying the next tribunals. Make no mistake: we need those services. I flash car, but because they represent people and they am told that 56% of those who attended that service care about those clients. I mean that sincerely. had long-term illness or disability, and of those 69% had mental health issues. Where will they go? I hope we shall have an answer, because although we have had 5.19 pm some encouraging comments from Ministers we need Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): The Bill falls reassurance that there is somewhere for those people to into two distinct parts, despite its tripartite title: first the go if that service is taken away. reforms to sentencing and the punishment of offenders, Last year, the Hastings advice and representation and secondly the changes to legal aid. centre supported 250 benefits appeals, of which it lost On the first part, I welcome the key changes. The only two, which clearly demonstrates the value of that public need reassurance that this Government can protect work and the fact that it takes things on only where them from crime and tackle the issue of reoffending, there is a real case to answer. If we knew that the about which my hon. and learned Friend the Member Department for Work and Pensions made only good for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) decisions and that the reforms to universal credit spoke so well. I particularly welcome the work for which we are so looking forward to had come through prisoners’ reform. Locking up offenders is fine, but how and the system worked 100%, I would have no doubts much better to have them repaying their debt by working, about supporting the cuts to that aspect of legal aid, but and increasing their own motivation for and appetite at the moment we know that is not the case, and while for work on exit. Part of that must be the crackdown on that problem exists we must have a system to support drug abuse inside prisons. I completely agreed with my these people. hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) I am not saying that there are no cuts to be made—oh when she pointed out how many people recently have no. We have a major deficit to sort out and we must expressed their concern and outrage at the concept of make these cuts. The Law Society has made some drug-free wings in prison. Our ultimate aspiration must suggestions; I have another. I would like to look very be drug-free prison. That, above all, will help people carefully at the funding of trivial human rights cases, in avoid offending. I welcome this tough but fair Bill, which lawyers have spent huge sums on establishing which addresses the problems of drugs and worklessness largely technical violations of the European convention. in that respect. For instance, how much money was spent last year by Turning to the legal aid side and the cuts in the civil the last Government on legal aid for prisoners? Can we sector, the Government have provided much evidence of have less legal aid for prisoners and more for the most the disproportionate costs of legal aid in this country, vulnerable in our society? 1039 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1040 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill 5.25 pm front-line advice services such as the five tremendous citizens advice bureaux and the 13 advice centres in Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Thirty Birmingham. years ago, as secretary of the Brent Trades Council and the Brent Federation of Tenants and Residents Associations, In conclusion, the Government said that they made I brought together, with progressive lawyers, the group their legal aid proposals following consultation. It is that formed the second community law centre in Britain. clear that these are friendless proposals. It is clear that It is still going strong to this day. For three decades, the there has been a dialogue with death because the centre has been a lifeline for those in need of legal Government simply have not listened. It has not listened advice and representation, challenging public authorities to people such as Gillian Gray from Citizens Advice, as we did when we won the battle to change housing who says that civil legal aid keeps people in their houses, regulations following the tragic death of a young husband in jobs and out of debt. Hundreds of thousands of on a high-rise block on the Stonebridge estate; he had people will now have nowhere to turn. Serious cases of been trapped because there was no way out of his family breakdown, unfair dismissal and refusal of benefits burning flat. will simply get nowhere. Three decades on, as the Member of Parliament for Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Birmingham, Erdington, I was alongside four brave Deptford (Joan Ruddock), I was present to hear Supreme families who, funded by legal aid, won a landmark case Court Justice Baroness Hale earlier this week as she against Birmingham city council, which had cut care to forensically dissected the Government’s proposals, arguing 4,100 elderly and disabled residents in Birmingham. that access to the courts without representation is a Without legal aid, justice for the vulnerable would have denial of justice. In her words: been denied and a heartless council would have ploughed “There is a well-known ironic saying, usually attributed to on regardless. Lord Justice Mathew, that in England justice is open to all—like the Ritz.” The hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) spoke on behalf of many on both sides of Justice for the well-off only is no justice at all. the House when she summed up the nature of the dilemma. Hundreds come to my surgery, as they do to 5.31 pm hers, every month. Many face urgent and serious problems Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I relating to everyday issues such as debt, employment, speak as a lawyer who practised as a criminal barrister benefits, care services and family matters. I often refer and, for a period of time, appeared in the county court them to specialists such as those at the Birmingham representing victims of domestic violence in seeking Law Centre, Citizens Advice or other legal aid solicitors. non-molestation and harassment injunctions and looking Without that help, the people I see would not be able at contact and family law cases. With all that in mind, I to stay in their homes, in work and in education. The consider the Bill in two parts. First, I look at it in terms vital advice provided by the specialists in social welfare of improving our criminal justice system and our justice law has helped many families and individuals whom I system overall. What do I mean by that? I mean making see to avoid costly litigation and prevent or mitigate the our justice system more friendly and less acrimonious, effects of marital and family breakdown. and resolving matters at an earlier stage rather than Now, under these proposals, 650,000 at recent allowing them to go to court. People have talked about estimates—and half a million, according to the Ministry mediation and said that it may not be possible in every of Justice’s own impact assessment—will lose out on case. Of course, that is right. However, it is right and that vital help through changes to legal aid alone, when proper to consider how to resolve matters before they other funding streams for free advice have already been get to the courts. cut or are under threat. In Birmingham, about 6,500 Let us consider the consultation proposals put forward cases will no longer be funded as a consequence. Each for the small claims courts. It is absolutely right that represents a loss of specialist help when it is most matters are resolved before they get to court because it needed. is often the case that people lose more in legal fees than Legal aid funding is being withdrawn from all they gain in compensation or fees awarded back to employment advice, welfare benefits advice, virtually them by the court. all debt advice, nearly half of housing advice and nearly Mediation cannot, however, be used in cases of domestic all education advice. There can be only one outcome: violence. That is why the 5,000 responses to the avoidable poverty and distress for many thousands of Government’s 12-week consultation made it clear that people. Not only will people be less likely to receive the Government had broadened the criteria for objective advice, but advice will be harder to find as agencies evidence to be used in domestic violence cases. currently funded through legal aid find it more I turn briefly to a matter that is often raised with me difficult to carry on. For example, the average impact of by my constituents, who say that it is morally wrong the cuts on individual not-for-profit providers will be a that legal aid is being given to squatters to fight eviction. 92% drop in legal aid. That makes no sense, given that I asked the Department for Communities and Local we know that the right advice early on can save the Government how many squatters there are in the United public purse up to £10 for every £1 invested. Kingdom, and was told that there are 20,000. How can It is absolutely wrong that in a civilised society, when it be right that people can occupy the homes of others things go wrong, we deny the people affected access to and cause damage, and then be given legal aid by the the specialist help that they need to put things right. As taxpayer—your money, my money—to fight eviction? the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) That is absolutely wrong, and it is right and proper that said, we need to tackle the root of the problem—poor the Government are carrying out consultation to improve decision making by the various state bodies involved—as the situation. That would also put us on a par with well as continuing to invest in the existing value-for-money Scotland, where squatting is a criminal offence. 1041 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1042 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill I want briefly to touch on the subject of legal aid Members will know that such cases are lengthy, taking being given to foreign students who want to appeal several years, if not decades, to bring to court. Teams of decisions on visa applications. It is fantastic that people lawyers are required to work overseas, often in group from different parts of the world want to study in our actions, and, as in the South African miners’ case country, but when they apply for a visa at the high against Cape plc, companies seek to cover the impact of commission or embassy in their country and are turned their actions, creating significant difficulties for lawyers down, they appeal to immigration judges in our country. gathering evidence to put before courts. Who pays for that legal aid? Those students do not pay Such cases are not eligible for legal aid. They are taxes. British citizens pay for that legal aid. That is brought under a conditional fee agreement or a no win, wrong and it must stop. no fee basis. Given the costs and risk incurred, law firms Another important point about immigration cases, rely on the success fee to cushion them and to future-fund which the Bill deals with, is the instances of repeated other cases. As the success fee will no longer be recoverable, appeals on judicial review on the same point, one after the the ability to take a case will be severely restricted. The other. I spoke to an immigration tribunal judge who success fee costs us nothing: it is paid by the defendant, raised that very point. He said that people make numerous but it is vital. appeals, one after the other, on the same point, and get Taken with the proposal to prevent claimants from legal aid. Clearly that is wrong, and it has to change. recovering after-the-event insurance, that will be absolutely The Law Society proposes that legal aid be capped at devastating. The Government accept that, because of £250,000 per lawyer, but that is unworkable as it means the high costs, this approach is not appropriate for that legal aid would have to be transferred to another clinical negligence cases. I urge them to think again lawyer. Its proposal does not tackle the root cause. about these cases, which are similar in terms of the high The shadow Justice Secretary said that under the costs incurred in taking cases to court. previous Government reoffending and offending behaviour Proposals outside the Bill make the situation worse. had been looked at. That is complete nonsense. I tabled The Government intend to introduce a proportionality a written question to the Ministry of Justice asking how rule so that costs awarded do not exceed compensation many prisoners had lost remission for disciplinary offences in successful cases. In the cases I have mentioned there in the previous 12 months. The answer revealed that is a particular problem with that. Since 2009, the Rome “in 2009 the disciplinary punishment of additional days was II regulation has meant that compensation awarded to imposed on 11,550 occasions”.—[Official Report, 27 June 2011; victims is based on the country where the harm was Vol. 530, c. 517W.] done, but the costs in the UK are considerably higher That quite clearly shows that the system is shambolic. and will outstrip the compensation. That is why there is In the past, prisoners did whatever they wanted and a particular issue in this case. Taken together, the three misbehaved, yet they were let out early. That is the measures will mean that it will be impossible for victims record of the previous Government. of human rights abuses to get redress. The Secretary of State spoke of rehabilitation and of There are countless examples of where harm has prisoners doing 40 hours of work. A judge imposing a been done. Many Members on both sides of the House custodial sentence will be able to instruct the defendant fought hard on the Trafigura case in Ivory Coast. There to work for 40 hours and pay compensation to his is also Cape plc in South Africa and Rio Blanco in victim. That is restorative justice and it stops the victim Peru. Victims cannot usually get redress at home, which being hung out to dry. is why it falls to the UK to act. That is no surprise when I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s proposals. we consider that the power of such companies often We must listen and engage, but the 12-week consultation outstrips the power of the states in which they operate. showed that we have listened about broadening the Wal-Mart has a turnover of $414 billion, which would definition of domestic violence and are working with make it the 26th biggest economy in the world, ranking other parties to ensure that hard-working taxpayers’ just behind Norway. It is no wonder that people cannot money is not given to people who enter properties, get redress in their home states. cause damage and yet are given money to avoid eviction. Last week, the Lord Chancellor told me in answer to Applying the principle that brevity is a virtue and not a question that he would stand up for the small man. a vice, I end my remarks. One cannot get much smaller or more voiceless than the people I am describing but his proposals will make the situation much worse, not better. That is not just my 5.36 pm view but that of Amnesty International and Friends of the Earth. It is also the view of Professor John Ruggie, Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I want to discuss a problem the UN special representative on business and human that the Bill creates for the victims of human rights rights, and of Michael Mansfield, QC. On this specific abuses committed by UK-based multinationals operating issue, he said that the proposals are a overseas. “flagrant violation of the coalition’s own commitment to human In the wake of the financial crisis there is near-universal rights.” recognition that the moral code that binds individuals and states also binds business, that nobody is above the That is why I am asking for exemption in these particular law and that multinational corporations cannot be allowed cases. to put profit before people by committing crimes against Speaking at a packed meeting for MPs that I hosted them and the environment. That is why I am deeply last week, the US assistant secretary of state for democracy, concerned about the proposals on civil litigation costs, human rights and labour, Mike Posner, said that the which will make it virtually impossible to bring cases impact of business will be the defining human rights against multinationals. issue of the 21st century. He said that in the wake of a 1043 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1044 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Lisa Nandy] prison, he became addicted to significant doses of diazepam. He was desperate to get off drugs before he was released. landmark resolution passed unanimously by the UN He knew that if he was released addicted, he would be this month. It was a landmark in that it was the first drawn back towards the same circle of people and time in the 65-year history of the UN that a resolution propelled back into crime. I was able to help him, but he that was not negotiated by the UN has been passed told me he had exhausted all other avenues of getting unanimously. help, and that cannot be right. He subsequently found The UK should be leading the way on this issue. It help in the community with an ex-offenders’ charity. He will cost absolutely nothing, but the cost will be devastating is now training in a useful skill, and even hopes to start for some of the most vulnerable people in the world if a small business. That is a positive story, but I fear it we fail to act. does not apply for far too many people. Many people are simply released still addicted to drugs and in a 5.41 pm vulnerable state, and are then sucked back into the same criminal circles, making it almost inevitable that they Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con): I welcome the continuing will relapse. focus of Ministers on tackling the country’s appalling levels of reoffending, which we have heard a lot about. I There is clearly great benefit in taking a proactive and want to focus my comments on the need to tackle drugs multidisciplinary approach to tackling this problem. If dependency among prisoners, not least because to reduce drug recovery wings are successful, I hope that the pilot reoffending is to reduce the number of victims, a point will be rapidly expanded, particularly as they have to which many hon. Members have returned. proved to be especially successful for women. I also agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings For many low-level offenders, turning them away and Rye that we should aspire to have drug-free prisons, from crime back to the law-abiding majority depends and there are some good examples from around the on a system of rehabilitation that works. The one that world. The Sheridan correctional facility in Illinois was we inherited is clearly flawed. Reoffending rates for reopened as a purpose-built drug rehab prison in 2004 short prison sentences of less than 12 months had and has had some very encouraging results over the last increased to 61% in 2008. eight years. The reoffending rates of the prisoners released The statistics linking drug addiction among prisoners from there are between 20% and 50% lower than for and reoffending rates are stark. Evidence submitted to those released from traditional facilities in Illinois. the “Breaking the Cycle” Green Paper stated that, from Reducing reoffending rates and tackling drug addiction a sample of offenders, 62% of those who had taken have both a clear economic benefit, as has been discussed, drugs in the four weeks prior to custody were reconvicted and a clear social benefit. We want fewer victims of within a year of leaving prison. That compared to 30% crime, and we want to help offenders get clean and go reconviction rates among prisoners who had never used straight, and get a job, pay their taxes and keep their drugs. If we want to address recidivism, tackling drug families together. I welcome the Secretary of State’s taking in prison must come incredibly high on the approach on this matter. agenda, not least stopping prisoners getting a habit inside, on which we have heard some horrendous statistics. 5.46 pm Like my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), I welcome the pilot programme of Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): It is a pleasure drug-free wings in our prisons. We have all said that we to be called to speak in this debate, but I shall follow the would prefer they were the exception rather than the Whip’s advice and be as brief as possible as I know that rule, but the reality of our prison system is that people many other Members wish to contribute. go to extraordinary lengths to smuggle illegal drugs in. My interest in the penal system began when I was 19, The Ministry of Justice’s own survey last November when I did work experience—or what might now be found that 19% of offenders questioned had tried heroin called an internship—at HMP Frankland, a category A for the first time in prison, so it is a vital subject to prison with every one of its inmates serving a sentence tackle and an abject record that we have inherited. of more than four years. I worked there for six months, I very much welcome the fact that the Ministry of and later in my career I worked at YOI Deerbolt, Justice and the Home Office are showing joined-up followed by a stretch at Dartmoor before returning to thinking on this. The Home Office’s drug strategy 2010 Frankland. I have therefore seen a bit of life inside. document sets out clearly the need to tackle the I commend the Secretary of State on his ambition counterproductive influence of drugs in prison, boosting and on the headline of rehabilitation revolution, because intelligence capabilities and security technology in prisons. that is undoubtedly what is needed. The problem, however, Those are both key factors in dealing with the problem. is that despite the headline, the story he is attempting to Both the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice have tell is full of unfinished or unwritten chapters. When the highlighted the need for integrated support to help Bill reaches Committee, I hope that Committee members drug-reliant offenders. will seek to find the answers to the outstanding questions, This Government are taking a proactive approach to because there are a lot of holes in the information that rehabilitating and supporting prisoners addicted to drugs, we have been given so far. both illegal and prescription. Some who are released do I am at odds with some of my party colleagues in that not want to go on to commit other offences but their I am a fan of imprisonment for public protection. reliance on substances is the route to reoffending. Many When I was working at Frankland—a dispersal prison—in of them want to free themselves from drugs but instead the early ’90s, which was a pre-indeterminate sentences slip through the net. One is a constituent who wrote to era, some category A inmates who had served life me earlier this year who was coming to the end of an sentences and had not been recommended for 18-month sentence. After a course of painkillers in de-categorisation through the prison system were set 1045 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1046 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill free, even though their probation report, psychology focus my contribution on what more can be done in the report, education report and personal officer report Bill to help to prosecute and punish offenders for the said, “This inmate will reoffend. He is a danger.” That crime of child sexual exploitation. did not happen very often, but it did happen. Some Despite being a mother of three children, I was such inmates were released, and there was nothing we unaware that horrendous crimes were being perpetrated could do about it. The courts could do nothing about it; in my community—crimes of online grooming, and the that was the system at the time. It is good that we no sexual abuse and rape of children. Like most of my longer have that, but I hope that when the IPP system is constituents, as the news broke of the prosecution of reviewed the Secretary of State will take great care to Michael Williams last year, I found it difficult to believe that ensure that public protection is at the forefront of his such crimes were possible in this century and this country, mind, rather than reducing the number of IPP inmates. and especially in the community where I grew up. I know there are strong calls from inmates and their A few months later, the further revelation of six men families for the system to be reformed, but the essence operating a paedophile ring in my part of Cornwall—it of these sentences must remain in place. There is a place was uncovered and prosecuted by Devon and Cornwall for indeterminate sentencing in our system. When an police’s Operation Lakeland—forced me to find out inmate says to me, “Miss, I’m on an IPP, what can I do more about the horrendous crimes that those men about it?” I say, “Sort yourself out. First, admit your perpetrated against children as young as five years old. I guilt.” It is amazing how many people fail to do that, am impressed by the determination to tackle and prevent and until someone has confronted their own internal that and to raise awareness shown by the Home Secretary, offending behaviour, there is absolutely no point whatever the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. in sending them on any course—any anger management, Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham drugs rehabilitation or social skills course—because it (Tim Loughton), who has responsibility for children, will not succeed until they have confronted their offending and the Under-Secretary of State for the Home behaviour. Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley The thing that upsets me most about the Bill is the and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), who has responsibility lack of concern for victims. The fandango that we went for crime prevention. However, they need some help through on 50% reductions and discounts in sentences from their colleagues in the Ministry of Justice in two was an insult to victims. The recent treatment in court respects. First, the Ministry of Justice could improve of Milly Dowler’s parents lacked any trace of humanity support for young witnesses who give evidence in criminal whatever. It is appropriate for the Secretary of State to proceedings, and secondly, it could improve sentencing say, “This is not acceptable. I will look at this and do policy. something about it.” In any case, we need more than As with all crimes, to secure successful prosecutions words. We need clear actions to put a stop to that kind witnesses must be prepared to come forward, give evidence of behaviour in court. It damages not only individuals and be cross-examined in court. Unless witnesses, their but future witnesses, and victims will be less likely or families and carers believe that they will be supported willing to put themselves in that position—I do not and fairly treated when they go to court, they will not blame them. come forward. I am grateful to Sheila Taylor of Safe Opposition Members are frequently asked, “What and Sound Derby who has given me information on should happen?” As someone who has worked in prisons, cases that vividly illustrate why the current system must I have some very strong views on that. I find myself change. agreeing and disagreeing with the Prison Officers The first case concerns a 15-year-old girl who was Association. I disagree with the POA on private prisons—I repeatedly sexually abused. She was forced to give evidence believe that there is a role for them—but we need more in court for eight days, and she was cross-examined by a openness. The hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine team of nine defence lawyers, including, on one occasion, Dorries) has said that she would welcome the increased by five in a row, working as a team to try to undermine use of private prisons. She might have a point, but I her evidence. Although the court showed respect for the would not welcome that until we can find out, using the defendant’s human rights, there was no understanding freedom of information method, what they do on of how the crimes perpetrated against the victim had rehabilitation, what their outcomes are, how they treat left her a vulnerable and terrified witness. She was their staff and what medical provision they offer. At the physically sick every day before she came to court and moment, we cannot do that. became so traumatised by the experience that she ran Prison officers have no idea when an inmate has gone away from home during the case. Sadly, the case was on to reoffend, unless the inmate goes back on to their dropped. The second case concerns a girl who, when wing. Closing that feedback loop of information to shown into the witness box, found that the screens include sentencers, prison officers and probation officers promised to her to prevent her from having to see the is essential if the Secretary of State is to get anywhere people who had abused her had been forgotten. Seeing near to a rehabilitation revolution. I can tell him that the men who had sexually abused her, she understandably with his current proposals, he will get nowhere near became hysterical. As such, she was deemed unfit to that. He should cut the rhetoric and the hubris, and he give evidence, and again the case was dropped. should get down to some real policies that will make a difference. I want to improve the experience and cross-examination of children in our courts. I am fully aware that the Ministry of Justice has prioritised this concern with the 5.52 pm recent publication of “Achieving Best Evidence in Criminal Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I welcome Proceedings: Guidance on Interviewing Victims and the Bill’s focus on making the criminal justice system Witnesses, and Using Special Measures”. However, there more victim oriented. In the few minutes left, I shall is still an issue about how to get legal practitioners to 1047 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1048 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Sarah Newton] Pat Glass: I am pleased that the Lord Chancellor listened to those contributions, because they were worth use it. The majority of cases that go to trial at the hearing. Crown court have first to go through a plea and case If legal aid for social welfare law, which currently management hearing. According to Crown Prosecution funds advice centres and, in some instances, representation Service guidance, a PCMH is compulsory only where for people with such problems, stops being available, it the child is a defendant but not a victim. That should be will affect large numbers of people. I particularly want changed. to discuss parents who have issues with education, Such a hearing should be compulsory for both a child disabled people who incorrectly or inappropriately have defendant and complainant, because the PCMH, which their access to benefits withdrawn and those who, because is purely an administrative hearing at which outstanding of medical negligence, need access to additional resources issues of law or procedure are dealt with by the judge and support. before trial or evidence commencement, provides the I have worked in education for many years, and I have judge with an opportunity to give a direction to all seen many parents who were very angry that their counsel that they should abide by the Ministry’s own children had been refused admission to their preferred “Best Evidence” publication when dealing with young school. Most of the parents I have come across were witnesses, be they defendants or complainants. If such quite capable of standing up for themselves and their judicial direction was made compulsory at the PCMH, children in admissions appeals, but some needed additional lawyers could not say that they had no knowledge of help. I welcome the Government’s recent moves to take such information or that their approach was the norm out of these proposals access to legal aid to support in practice. parents who need advice on preparing special educational Furthermore, some judges need to be made aware of needs tribunals. Nevertheless, if the proposals go through, this issue and be encouraged to intervene when questioning vulnerable parents, or parents who have SEN themselves, methods are inappropriate. Publishing guidance for judges will no longer be able to get the advice they need on in the criminal procedures rules would greatly improve admissions or exclusions. We all accept that middle-class, good practice. I believe that the Government really educated and socially mobile parents are best placed to want to make our criminal justice system more victim- get their children into the schools of their choice and orientated. What better place to start than with the that it is the more vulnerable, poorly educated and children and young people who are the victims of the socially immobile parents who are least successful in the most horrendous of crimes? What better way to convince admissions process. Some 70% of pupils who are excluded them and society as a whole that we consider these from school have SEN in some form or other, and many crimes to be totally unacceptable than by ensuring that of their parents also have SEN. Those people need perpetrators serve long sentences, including life sentences— advice and representation, but that will no longer be sentences designed to ensure that they will not be released available to them. until they have demonstrated that they have effectively Last Friday, I met representatives of my local citizens controlled their sexual urges and can resist reoffending. advice bureau in Consett who told me that they are For the victims, the combination of the crimes bracing themselves for the increased numbers of people perpetrated against them, even when the disclosure and who will come to them as a result of changes in welfare subsequent support is excellent, and the experience of reform. My constituency office staff and I are making giving evidence in court can give them a lifelong sentence arrangements and preparing ourselves for the increased of suffering. Is this fair? Surely, the life sentence should work load as people are reassessed for disability living go to the perpetrator not the victim. I urge the Government, allowance and employment support and are put through therefore, while the Bill passes through the House— new assessments. At my surgery on Saturday, I met an elderly couple Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The who told me that their middle-aged daughter had received hon. Lady’s time is up. notification of a forthcoming review. She has severe learning difficulties and mental health problems but no physical or visible disability. The mother broke down in 5.58 pm tears as she told me that her daughter was eagerly Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): I want to looking forward to telling the people at the interview speak today about legal aid and social welfare law, not how well she could look after herself, cook for herself because I am an expert in either, but by drawing on my and dress herself appropriately, none of which is true. many years’ experience in education and my year as a However, although none of it is true, it will have an new MP. Before that, however, I want to comment on immediate effect on her access to benefits. I have no today’s debate. As with many debates, some hon. Members doubt whatever that the decision will be overturned on have popped in, ranted a bit and left, but overall this appeal, but the parents told me that they have had years afternoon I have sat through some of the most informed of being burdened down by caring, anxiety and worry and thoughtful contributions that I have ever heard in about the future, and that they simply cannot face the House. They have come from Members on both another battle with the benefits agency and the appeals sides of the House and indicate the level of concern on people. In the past, I would have been able to signpost both sides. It was a shame that the Lord Chancellor was those people to the right kind of legal advice, but I will not here for the contributions from his colleagues the not be able to do that in future. hon. Members for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) If the proposals go through, there will no longer be and for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell). access to legal aid for housing matters. As a new MP, I have been stunned by the amount of casework I have Mr Kenneth Clarke: I listened to them. had on housing, none of which is trivial. Those cases 1049 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1050 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill are not about people who fancy a council house, but population is in work in prison at any one time and, on about people have real priority needs, such as elderly average, prisoners do only 12 hours of work a week. couples who are now disabled, a lady who has gone That tends to suggest that we are still not nearly sufficiently blind, disabled young people who need access to appropriate far enough advanced from the situation in 2005, when housing and people who are at risk of losing their the Home Affairs Committee described prison industries homes. Legal aid will no longer be available to those as being largely “peripheral” to the way in which the people when their landlord, housing company or local Prison Service went about its business. authority fail to meet their statutory duties. I strongly welcome, in the Bill and in the Government’s Legal aid will no longer be available to fund help and approach, the commitment that prisons should be places representation in cases of medical negligence. In my job of hard work and industry. Two aspects are particularly before I came to Parliament I worked with a number of welcome: first, the ability to make deductions from parents whose children suffered profound and multiple work wages to go to support victims; and secondly, the learning, physical and sometimes medical needs as a ability to make deductions to create a savings account result of medical negligence. Using legal aid, those for the prisoner for when they eventually leave prison. If parents were able to secure a financial future for their we are to realise those two ambitions to a significant child, to adapt their homes and to access therapy that degree, we will have to find ways to ensure that work in would improve their children’s lives. That will no longer prison is of higher value so as to be able to afford those be available to them. I think that the most vulnerable in deductions. society will be affected by the measures and I ask the Debt and lack of financial capability is an acknowledged Lord Chancellor to reconsider these matters, but I do central factor in ex-offenders being unable to adjust not have the slightest hope that he will. properly to life outside prison and eventually in reoffending. Work by Paul Jones at Liverpool John Moore’s university 6.4 pm identifies a clear statistical link in that prisoners who Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): There can be leave and are then able to open a bank account, with all no doubt that change is needed in this area. We spend the things that that leads to, including work, are much record amounts on the criminal justice system and less likely to reoffend. In some prisons, there are already incarcerate record numbers of people, and yet the very encouraging pilots involving financial capability. conveyor belt to crime and the cycle of reoffending The probation service, including in my own county of remain intact. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe Hampshire, helps prisoners to deal with things such as (Anna Soubry) listed some of the disturbing reoffending budgeting and the advantages of opening a bank account. statistics. The cost of offending by ex-prisoners now Classes, and so on, are one thing, but there is no stands at £11 billion per annum. My hon. Friend the substitute for the practice of actually using financial Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) reminded services. That is why the ability to build up a small us of the purposes of imprisonment—retribution, savings account is important, not so much for the restoration and rehabilitation. We should of course add amount of money involved, which would always be to those prevention and deterrence. We need to be bold small, but in trying to encourage the development of a and adventurous in the way that we go about those savings habit. I acknowledge the role already played by things because, in the words of the old saying, “If you credit unions such as Leeds City Credit Union in working always do what you always did, you will always get what with prisons in this respect. More broadly, I hope that you always got.” the Bill can facilitate an expansion and extension of This is a Second Reading debate, so we are voting on payment by results, which I fully accept has a cross-party the principles of the Bill, and I shall certainly vote in provenance, and rightly so. I hope that that will help to favour. On legal aid, there are clearly considerable concerns integrate work within prison and on release as a specialist about several aspects that will have to be carefully and intensive branch of the Work programme. considered. It is also undeniable, however, that we need I welcome the Bill because it has at its heart proper to deal with the much increased bill for legal aid. The sentences that the public can have confidence in, but hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) combines that very plainly with the rehabilitation of thought that the shadow Secretary of State had listed offenders by improving their ability to deal with life on how he and his party would go about doing that, the outside, while being innovative and bold in its because the right hon. Gentleman said on several occasions approach to encouraging incentives and giving rewards that he was about to do so, but I am afraid that we never for success. quite got that list. Prison, at its heart, is about punishment, but it is also, 6.9 pm vitally, about rehabilitation. Several hon. Members have talked about the importance of getting prisoners off Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): I feel somewhat drugs, and of course alcohol as well, but there are other unqualified to take part in this debate, because we have important aspects of helping offenders to prepare for heard from a lot of lawyers, and I confess to not being a life on the outside and improving their ability to live a lawyer. I must admit that I am marrying one at the full, positive and constructive life. I want to touch on beginning of August, but he is not affected by these one of those, work, and the related matter of financial changes. capability. A lot of good work is done on work in I will speak about the changes to legal aid and the prisons by the likes of DHL, Travis Perkins, Cisco new provisions on knife crime. I do not stand here today Systems and Timpson; I am delighted that the eponymous to claim that the current system of legal aid is perfect, Member, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and because it is not. The Opposition recognise that, and we Nantwich (Mr Timpson), is with us for this debate. In made a commitment in our manifesto to reforming it, spite of that good work, less than a third of the prison but reforming the system is different from decimating it, 1051 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1052 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Heidi Alexander] consultation’s respondents, and, as I have already said, the Bill is shameful given what it proposes to do to and that is what the Government propose to do. This access to justice. Bill will restrict access to justice to those who can afford In the final minute and a half of my speech, I turn to to pay, and it will leave some of our poorest and most the new provisions on knife crime and the new offence vulnerable citizens completely defenceless. It is a shameful of possessing a knife in aggravated circumstances. I Bill, and I hope that it will change hugely as it progresses represent a constituency where lives have been devastated through Parliament. by knife crime, and the Government will have to do One of the first occasions on which I had reason to much better than this Bill. think about the availability of legal aid was when I was Last year I researched on YouTube the videos that a local councillor in Lewisham. I was the cabinet member gangs put up. Youngmen—probably boys, to be honest— for regeneration, and I led the council’s work to try to brandish knives on the internet and wave them around find a new Travellers site. Towards the end of the in front of the camera as if they are just cigarettes. Tens process, the authority’s decision to build a new site was of thousands of people have viewed these videos and I subject to a judicial review challenge that was funded by wonder whether that would qualify as aggravating legal aid. circumstances. The videos glorify knife crime and the I remember hearing how an elderly woman of limited intimidating and aggressive violence that accompanies means had been persuaded by her neighbours to front it, so I ask the Minister to think about such incidences the challenge, and I remember being annoyed by that, and whether any change can be made to the law to try questioning in my own mind whether it was right, but as to tackle the culture that exists around the use of time passed I concluded that it was right: right, because knives— there is a fundamental principle at stake, and right that, irrespective of somebody’s means, they can challenge Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Will the hon. Lady with the appropriate legal advice and assistance a decision give way? that the state has taken. Heidi Alexander: I only have 30 seconds and many Although I appreciate the Government’s plan to retain other hon. Members wish to speak— legal aid for such situations, I think that the principle has to apply across the board. Taking whole areas of social welfare law out of the scope of civil legal aid Robert Halfon: I will not be able to speak. means that hundreds of thousands of people will not be able to secure the legal advice that they need on housing, Heidi Alexander: In that case, I will give way. education and benefits. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The Many decisions challenged using legal aid are taken hon. Gentleman has only just come into the Chamber. by the state. They include decisions not to award benefits or to provide housing, and some of that work requires a Robert Halfon: I beg your pardon, Mr Deputy Speaker. detailed understanding of the law, yet the Government Is the hon. Lady aware that knives are often sold on seem to suggest that people will be able to go it alone. I the internet priced with British pound signs and does honestly cannot see how that will work. she agree that action needs to be taken to combat that? Every fortnight I hold my advice surgery, to which many people come with plastic bags full of paperwork, Heidi Alexander: Some of the things that we see on and I spend hours sifting through it with them to find the internet are of huge concern. I tried to get YouTube the key document, and to understand what stage of the to take those videos down, but I did not really have a process they are at and whether they have a right to hope in hell of it doing so. I tried to interest Home appeal against a decision. Those people are not the Office Ministers in the issue and failed. We have to look people for whom DIY justice, as my hon. Friend the at what is out there in cyberspace in order to tackle Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) these issues. If anything will entice someone to get described it, is an option. involved in knife crime, it might be the idea that they A few months ago I visited Morrison Spowart, a will get their 30 seconds of glory on the internet with small firm of legal aid solicitors in my constituency. 16,000 people looking at their video. Can we think Solicitors at the firm are paid generally between £25,000 and about other ways to tackle this issue? £30,000. They are not City lawyers earning £100,000, but I do not think that the provisions in the Bill on knife they do change people’s lives, and they talked me through crime will get to the nub of the problem. I cannot see a case in which a legal aid fee of £174 enabled them to what will really change as a result of these proposals. overturn a council decision not to house a family, While I am inclined to support a mandatory sentence thereby avoiding a whole number of knock-on costs to for possession of a knife in aggravated circumstances, I the public purse, not to mention the misery that the question what will really change. decision would have caused the parents and children. Members will know that organisation after organisation Several hon. Members rose— has sent out briefings for this Second Reading debate, talking about the false economy of these cuts to legal Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I aid. The list of organisations that make the argument is have three Members to get in, but only 14 minutes left. a long one: the Law Society, Liberty, Shelter, Citizens Advice, the Law Centres Federation and the Child 6.16 pm Poverty Action Group. I ask the Minister: are they all Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I will wrong? The Government have not listened to the keep my comments brief, Mr Deputy Speaker. 1053 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1054 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill I think that it was the hon. Member for Sunderland issue was identified many years ago by, among others, Central (Julie Elliott) who said that she detected a Lord Carlile, whom Opposition Members like to quote. theme in the contributions from coalition Members: I In relation to IPPs, he said: detect a theme in the contributions of Opposition Members. “The consequence of the IPP provision has been unpredicted, They criticise the Government for the action that we are remains unpredictable and is shocking to many.”—[Official Report, taking, acknowledge that they would have done something House of Lords, 11 December 2007; Vol. 697, c. 189.] about legal aid funding themselves, but completely fail The views of Lord Carlile in 2007 are likely to be to articulate what that alternative would be—[Interruption.] repeated by many Members today. The right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) says I would have also liked to touch on the Rehabilitation Hansard that we should look at . We will do so, but I can of Offenders Act 1974, restorative justice schemes and assure hon. Members that it will say absolutely nothing the age of criminal responsibility, which I suspect might about what Labour would have done as an alternative. have been somewhat controversial. What Labour’s proposals amount to is a £65 million In conclusion, this Bill contains many sound proposals. cut from legal aid and a significant reduction in the It is in good shape, but it is not perfectly formed yet. number of firms that could practise legal aid. That There are issues that we will need to address in Committee, would have a very heavy impact on the accessibility and but the Bill is making headway on our priorities, including availability of legal aid around the country. When the tackling the scandal of reoffending and ensuring that hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) replies providers are paid for by results, which will have a huge to the debate, I hope that he will confirm that that impact on the success of rehabilitation and on our would have been the impact of Labour’s proposals. ability to deliver a justice system that works. It is clear that the legal aid reforms will have a significant impact, and there is no doubt that the changes will have an impact on existing legal aid users. That is 6.21 pm why I am pleased that in Justice questions the Under- Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): In the Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member short time that is available, let me highlight two or three for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), confirmed that the points. First, in looking at meaningful and appropriate Government have commissioned research on the ability sentences, it is very important to ensure that community of people on low incomes to access the courts, the penalties are well designed and right. I welcome the availability of appropriately qualified lawyers prepared recognition that Ministers are giving to the significance to undertake publicly funded work and the sustainability of such an aim. I am concerned that as further cuts have of legal services provided by bodies such as Citizens to be found in the justice budget, it will be probation Advice. I hope that that research will become available that will bear the brunt. very soon, so that we can assess the impact. The probation service in my constituency is already We need to keep these matters under review, especially facing a 24% funding cut over three years. It has told me in relation to litigants in person—an issue that the absolutely clearly that it cannot take any further cut NSPCC raised with me, as I am sure that it and other without it compromising both the protection of the organisations have raised it with many other hon. Members. public and its ability to run programmes that will contribute In a debate in the Justice Committee, the right hon. to the reduction in reoffending that we all seek. It is Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) raised particularly concerned that its ability to manage prolific the issue of litigants in person—[Interruption.] He has offenders will be compromised if it has to undergo woken up and is back with us. Given that exchange, I further cuts. The cuts will have an impact not just on the am pleased that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary probation service, but—because of the multi-agency also said that a report is being commissioned at the approach that it adopts for the management of prolific moment on litigants in person, and he may be able to offenders—on those outside the ambit of the Lord use this opportunity to confirm when that report will be Chancellor’s control, such as the police. The service is published and whether it will include significant proposals very anxious indeed that the cuts will have a damaging on how we can ensure that the court process is simplified. affect on its work. Mr Djanogly rose— Secondly, payment by results is a model that has been accepted across the House. None the less, it is important Tom Brake: It would be more appropriate for the that we ensure that we design the models to secure the Minister to respond at the end. results that we want. In particular, we must not create short-term contracts. We cannot be rewarding organisations Clearly, we are pleased that the concerns over the for keeping people out of the criminal justice system definition of domestic violence have been taken on only for a very short period after they emerge from board. I would have liked to have covered many other whatever sentence they have undergone. Let us ensure areas, including drug recovery wings, prisoner working that these contracts are of a sufficient length to challenge and, as a starting point, prisoner volunteering—the providers to achieve long-term reductions in reoffending listener schemes are very effective in that respect. I and that we make use of the best and most expert would also have liked to discuss the support that is support from the private and voluntary sectors. There is provided to prisoners on release. Certainly there are much to be learned. I hope that the Lord Chancellor some good organisations involved in that work, including will use the experience that was gained from the provision Vision Housing, which is based in my constituency. It and design of the Work programme. The role of voluntary provides not only housing for ex-offenders but the and specialist providers was very much to pick up some support to ensure that they do not reoffend. crumbs from the private sector table rather than to have Finally, it is entirely appropriate for the Government a proactive approach in helping to design the best to undertake a review of indeterminate sentences. The quality programmes. 1055 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1056 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Kate Green] Where are we now, 20 years later? We have ended up being just plain stupid on the subject—stupid in the Thirdly, let me briefly cover prisoner working. I welcome amount of legislation that we have passed; stupid about the intention to extend prisoner working and the comments the language that we have used about crime and criminality; that the Lord Chancellor made in response to a question and stupid and vain to claim that politicians’ actions in from me recently in relation to ensuring that prisoner the House can have a significant effect on crime rates in working would be not just any old work but meaningful this country. We know the real reasons why crime rises work that would improve long-term employability, with and falls; they are economic, familial and social. They an important link to prisoner education too. I hope relate to a range of issues that are best dealt with by that, as we consider the Bill, the Lord Chancellor can means of crime prevention and social policy. give us more information on prisoner working and tell Opposition Members should take my speech in its us how exactly how the employability programmes run intended spirit—that of cross-party co-operation. I invite by the probation service will correlate with the DWP’s them to make constructive proposals about what to do Work programme, which was alluded to by the hon. with our broken system. If they had got into power, Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds). they would have had to deal with the system. I must tell the Lord Chancellor that there are some fears. For example, my probation service runs effective Alun Michael: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? employability programmes for the offenders under its management that may not be what the DWP is looking Mr Buckland: No; I am afraid that I will not take for in the Work programme. It would seem extremely interventions, as there is no time. I say that with great foolish to unwind effective programmes run in the criminal respect to the right hon. Gentleman, who has much justice system, when a good bit of coherent planning experience in these matters. I am sure that he will across Departments could ensure that we have the best forgive me, but there is a lot that I need to say. This is my Work programme for those who are in the criminal first opportunity in 20 years to speak about criminal justice system. justice legislation from this side of the fence. I have been Finally, may I tell the Lord Chancellor that the one of the people dealing with the reality of the impact prisoner working that has been available so far has not of year after year of incontinence in legislation. been brilliantly well designed for women in custody? We Court staff, practitioners and judges have all had to need to consider how it can meet women’s needs while deal with the baleful consequences of the avalanche of in custody and when they leave it, so that they can work that ill-judged reform, sponsored by, among others, access the labour market. I am pleased that the Government the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who are continuing with many of the reforms to the women’s had the brass neck to come to the House today and tell custodial system that we began to put in place when in us that, under his guidance, all was well with the world. government, following Baroness Corston’s excellent He would not allow me to intervene on him. Had I done recommendations, but I regret that we have now apparently so—I am grateful that he is here—I would have reminded lost a ministerial champion for women in the penal him about sentences of indeterminate length for public system. I strongly urge the Lord Chancellor to think protection and the chaos that that system caused the about reinstating that important post to ensure that a Government. They were warned by the Court of Appeal focus on women in the custodial system remains centre that the system that they had introduced was in danger stage. of being untenable. 6.26 pm As a result, the Government passed an Act in 2008 to amend the system, but it was still a bad system, because Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I am it was not transparent to the victims. When victims of grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate. I crime went to court and heard about sentences of declare an interest as a legal aid practitioner for nearly indeterminate length for public protection, they did not 20 years and a recorder of a Crown court. I am one of know what that meant; they did not know when the those damned lawyers, I am afraid to say, and I apologise perpetrator of the crime against them was to be released. for that at the beginning of my speech. They did not understand the system. That was a failure I was particularly struck by the measured and reasonable of transparency. It was the single most important failure contribution of the hon. Member for Stretford and of the regime, which is why I will be glad after the Urmston (Kate Green). I have great respect for the hon. review to see the back of the system and to see clear, Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), whose long, determinate sentences with automatic release after parents live in my constituency, and her contribution two thirds of time is served. We have been here before; was excellent. If only the debate about legal aid and that was the system that existed before the Criminal sentencing was heard in those tones throughout the Justice Act 2003. Sentences of longer than four years House and in the media. attracted automatic release after two thirds of the time Twenty years ago, criminal justice and sentencing was served. The merry-go-round has come around again. was not a matter for great and low party politics; it was Opposition Members say that the Bill is imperfect. a matter for measured discussion. There were occasional That is inevitable, because it must undo years of damage criminal justice Acts, to tidy up a system that was inflicted by their party. The Bill is not finished business; perhaps at times not keeping pace with the changes in I accept that. It would be good to have a consolidation our society, but then something got into the DNA of Act to bring sentencing provisions under one umbrella. the body politic and things took a turn for the worse. I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Blackburn Egged on by the populist press, politicians from both for doing so in 2000 with an excellent measure, but sides of the House got into an arms race about being within two years it was all upended again by some brave tough on crime, as opposed to being soft. new policy initiative designed to assuage the populist 1057 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1058 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill press. It is time to end the charade in the debate on speech. Those and many other speeches came from criminal justice. It is time to start talking clever rather knowledge and experience of the criminal and civil than tough. It is time to change the ambit of the debate. justice system over many years. Therefore, whatever side The Bill gives us an opportunity to do so, which is why I of the House they came from, I hope that the Government will support it on Second Reading. will heed them. The Bill was supposed to launch a rehabilitation 6.31 pm revolution. Then the spin doctors decided that it would Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): This has be the Bill to punish offenders, but it is neither. It is a been a mature and authoritative debate, and a better damaging and unfunded mess. It will not protect the debate than this Bill deserves. Some 29 right hon. and public, reduce crime, support victims or reform offenders, hon. Members have spoken from the Back Benches, and but do the opposite. It will place victims at risk, cut by my reckoning, only four gave the Government access to justice for all but the wealthiest and take away unqualified or nearly unqualified support: the hon. even basic legal advice and representation from the Members for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) and for most vulnerable in society. Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), the hon. Legal aid, no-win, no-fee litigation, remand pending Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry)—no surprise trial, access to legal advice on arrest, and a system that there—and the hon. Member for Carshalton and diverts young people from offending are coherent parts Wallington (Tom Brake)—and increasingly no surprise of a coherent justice system that is envied around the there either. world. The Government put that at risk through the Many Members spoke about cuts to legal aid and Bill. A dizzying series of U-turns on sentencing and advice: my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and swingeing cuts to police, probation and youth offending Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson); the right hon. teams have created a shambles that will not keep us safe Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd); my hon. in the short term or lower prison numbers in the long Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl term. We have already had the first warning. Yesterday’s Turner); my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, figures show that, under this Government, crime in Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman); the hon. Member for London is increasing, not decreasing, for the first time Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd); and my hon. Friends in years. the Members for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), Access to legal aid for the poorest and most vulnerable for North West Durham (Pat Glass) and for Lewisham people will now be the exception, not the rule. Cutting East (Heidi Alexander). legal aid for housing, education, welfare benefits, debt Many Members discussed their concerns about the and family cases will be an economic as well as a social Bill’s sentencing provisions, including the hon. Members disaster. That is the view of 5,000 individuals and for Shipley (Philip Davies), for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell) organisations, many with decades of experience, expressed and for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) and my in their responses to the Government’s consultation. hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman). Citizens Advice, the National Society for the Prevention My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn of Cruelty to Children, Shelter, the Law Centres Federation, (Mr Straw) made a forensic examination of the appalling the Children’s Society and End Violence Against Women, provisions on remand. The right hon. Member for to name but a few, explained why legal help and Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) discussed representation is good value for money. It is provided the cuts in youth offending that occurred under the by lawyers who earn, on average, less than £25,000, Labour Government. We heard from the Chairman of citizens advice bureaux staff and volunteers, supplemented the Select Committee on Justice that the inefficiency of with pro bono advice. They explained why helping Departments is partly responsible for legal aid costs. people at an early stage prevents homelessness, debt, My hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston family breakdown and crime, which end up costing (Kate Green) told us about cuts to the probation service. society and the Treasury far more in the long run. They My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) also explained—it should not be necessary to do so, but gave a fine speech about conditional fee agreements and it is for this Government—the moral duty of a civilised their importance in multi-party actions, particularly society to support those most in need in the times of against large corporations. The hon. Member for Truro greatest stress. and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) spoke movingly about The Government’s impact assessments confirm that victims, the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) women, children, disabled people and minority groups spoke about drug dependency and the hon. Member for will suffer disproportionately from the cuts, to which East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) spoke about reoffending. the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member They were all excellent speeches, but I will mention for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), who is responsible for three or four in particular. The hon. Member for Maidstone legal aid, responds, “What do you expect? They’re the and The Weald (Mrs Grant) spoke about the need for ones getting legal aid now.” The Under-Secretary sounds litigation in some cases, despite what the Lord Chancellor increasingly like Marie Antoinette. I will do what the says. My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington asked and Fovargue) spoke from experience about the effects that cite Lord Carlile. Last week, at a meeting of the all-party the cuts will have on citizens advice bureaux and advice parliamentary group on legal aid, Lord Carlile put a services. The hon. and learned Member for Sleaford compelling case to the Under-Secretary. He asked: and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) spoke about the “What would the Minister tell the mother of a child with need for sentencing reform and—I hope that I am not catastrophic injuries caused by clinical negligence who could no putting words in his mouth—the reasons why this Bill longer get legal aid?” will not deliver it. Notwithstanding his tone, the hon. The response was: Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) made a fine “I don’t know. She’d better ask a lawyer.” 1059 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1060 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill [Mr Andy Slaughter] claims, which are 75% of all personal injury claims. Costs could be further controlled by capping success Despite the Lord Chancellor’s protestations, the fees and encouraging early settlement by both parties, Government have not listened to the women’s institute but the Government prefer to put all the onus on or Amnesty on domestic violence. They have not listened claimants and force them to pay up to 25% of the to people such as Jeannie Bloomfield, president of the damages that they have been justly awarded. A Supreme women’s institute in Suffolk, who survived domestic Court judge, Baroness Hale, warned this week that we violence years ago and has become an advocate for risk returning to an England where justice is denied to those who suffer it today. She wrote to me, fearful for all but the rich. the future. She said that, under the Government’s definition Finally, we come to sentencing. What a mess. What of domestic violence, she would not have received the an extraordinary debacle—the product of a Government legal aid that allowed her and her daughters to escape who just don’t get it on law and order. The coalition abuse. Under the plans, the Government will abandon agreement promised a full review of sentencing. This is many women like Jeannie. the opposite: a mixture of U-turns, delays, false promises Let us also consider the Government’s meddling with and sleights of hand. Some things that were in the Bill civil litigation. are now out, like 50% discounts. Some, such as indeterminate sentences, have gone off for even more Stephen Phillips: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman consultation. Some, such as the new knives offence, for giving way and for his remarks about my speech. He have been added with the ink hardly dry. Some may be will remember that I made the point that we had heard added later, on burglary and squatting. Many of the nothing from the Opposition about what they would tough measures announced by the Prime Minister are do, given that the shadow Lord Chancellor again accepted not in the Bill, but lots of the so-called “soft” measures in his speech that cuts had to be made to legal aid. The are. Courts will be allowed to take no action for breach hon. Gentleman told me to read Hansard. I have done of a community order or impose a fine for breach of a that and I am none the wiser. The information is not suspended prison sentence. Magistrates’ power to impose there. I wonder whether he would like to apologise to sentences of up to 12 months will be repealed rather me and the House for inadvertently misleading it. What than implemented. Judges and magistrates will have cuts would the Opposition make if they were in government? their hands tied on remand. To limit the use of remand as the Government have done is fundamentally to misunderstand its purpose. Judges, magistrates and victims’ Mr Slaughter: I am delighted to respond to that. I representatives all oppose that measure. It is an thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman had extraordinary step for any Government to take. It slightly more perception. He should look at the Green undermines law and order and the discretion of the Paper that was published on 22 March 2010, entitled judiciary, and it is solely here—as was the sentencing “Restructuring the Delivery of Criminal Defence Services”. discount—to save money. That is the document to which my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor and I referred. How many more Under Labour Governments, crime fell 43% over times do we have to explain it to the hon. and learned 13 years. Youthoffending fell 34% over the last Parliament Gentleman? [Interruption.] The Lord Chancellor, who alone. That was the product of investment in youth has only opened the Bill for the first time today, could offending teams—which this year will see an average perhaps go and look at the document himself. cut of 18% in their budgets—and of a long-term strategy to reduce criminal behaviour. The legacy that we left Turning to the Government’s meddling with civil has been squandered by a Department that is in chaos—a litigation, they justify the need to upend no-win, no-fee Department of chaos. Cuts of 23% will be achieved by by reference to the compensation culture, but their own restricting access to justice for the vulnerable, taking investigation, led by Lord Young of Graffham, found: money from injured parties, and meddling with sentencing “The problem of the compensation culture prevalent in society to reduce prison places. today is one of perception rather than reality.” The faults are clear in the process of the Bill—rushed The Government are legislating to fit false perceptions. out on the same day as the responses to consultation, A system that allows people on moderate incomes to rushed to Second Reading in one week and now being access justice is being overturned to please the insurance rushed into Committee, but with new provisions promised industry and large corporations. for the autumn and a raft of key measures left for While the justification for reform may be imagined, secondary legislation. It is a lazy Bill. It lacks integrity. the victims are all too real: children brain-damaged by The Secretary of State should feel embarrassed to present medical negligence, workers injured by unsafe machinery it to the House for Second Reading tonight. I urge all or suffering industrial disease and, as my hon. Friend right hon. and hon. Members on all sides to vote against. the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) said, hundreds of thousands of overseas victims of multinational companies 6.44 pm in cases like Trafigura. Again, public money will be wasted. The Revenue The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice has objected that insolvency cases in which it is a major (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): We have listened to many creditor will not come to court in the future. The NHS considered and knowledgeable speeches today.The breadth and the Department for Work and Pensions will have to of debate has only confirmed the importance of the pick up the tab for individuals who cannot get compensation issues before the House. The Bill contains provisions from those that harmed them. There is a need to control that would make a significant contribution to our reform costs of civil cases; all parties agree on that. We were of the justice system, and those reforms will deliver already doing that by controlling costs in road traffic justice effectively and affordably, provide value for money 1061 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1062 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill for the taxpayer, protect the public from serious and We will review indeterminate sentences with a view to violent offenders and tackle the over-reliance on courts replacing them with a clear, tough, predictable system and lawyers. of long, determinate sentences—the best way to punish The Bill will also make an important contribution to criminals for their crimes and reform them so that, on the Ministry’s deficit reduction commitment, worth release, they are no longer a danger to the public. We £2 billion by 2014-15. I can confirm that we have will complete the review by the autumn and bring engaged widely on the Bill, as my hon. Friend the forward our proposals for reform. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) The right hon. Member for Tooting said that Labour recognised. Most of the Bill’s proposals have been subject would limit the use of indeterminate public protection to three major consultations published last year, and sentences, but in reality by the time Labour had left they have been widely debated in the House—indeed, power, those had gone out of control, as my hon. we have had no fewer than nine debates on our justice Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) reforms since December last year. There have been explained in his excellent contribution. The Bill will hundreds of oral and written parliamentary questions also change the law to allow courts to hand down and legal aid has been the subject of one Justice Committee tougher punishments when prison is not an option. As inquiry and one report. I am looking forward to the part of community sentences, courts will be able to Public Bill Committee, where we will continue these impose tougher curfews for longer periods, detaining debates. offenders in their own homes with electronic tags to Many important issues have been raised and I shall help enforce those curfews. refer to a number of them. The point about getting a I am pleased to confirm to my hon. Friend the balance between sentencing and punishment was made Member for Shipley that we are not introducing a new by my hon. Friends the Members for Broxtowe (Anna requirement on courts directing that the periods that Soubry), for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) and for offenders spend tagged on bail should count towards a Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake). In that context, subsequent prison sentence. As part of the community I note that the length of sentence is important, but what sentence, courts will also be able to ban offenders from happens within the sentence is just as important for going abroad. We strongly support help for victims, and punishment and rehabilitation. I tell the hon. Member for Darlington that we will As my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate change the law to encourage courts to make more (Mr Burrowes) noted, for too long prisoners have spent offenders pay compensation directly to their victims. their time in prison lying around and doing nothing. We My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate want to make criminals work hard, an issue discussed spoke up on the important need to support victims, as very well by my hon. Friend the Member for East did the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Hampshire. Prisoners, some of whom hardly know the Penarth (Alun Michael), who also used his speech to meaning of work, will face the tough discipline of a promote the Youth Justice Board. My hon. Friend the regular working week of up to 40 hours. As we refocus Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) spoke prison regimes around work, we will create more up for child victims very strongly. opportunities to make prisoners pay back to their victims. Fines will not be a soft option. We are launching two The Bill includes a new power to take a portion of schemes, in Norfolk and Cheshire, to seize prized money earned by offenders to help victims. Offenders possessions such as cars, TVs and other valuable items serving community sentences will work longer and harder from criminals who ignore their fines. on unpaid work. My hon. Friends the Members for Enfield, Southgate My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire and for Enfield North (Nick de Bois), the hon. Member (Nadine Dorries) spoke strongly in favour of rehabilitation. for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) and my Her points about private prisons were well taken, although hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury spoke on means- the savings involved will depend on the prisons concerned. testing for advice given at police stations. I am pleased To answer the point made by the right hon. Member for to be able to confirm that we do not intend to stop Tooting (Sadiq Khan) about knives, the Bill will send a paying for police station advice. clear message that those who possess a knife to threaten On the point made by my hon. Friend the Member and endanger can expect to face a minimum prison for Shipley about suspended sentences, a number of sentence. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, judges have asked if the custodial sentence that is Southgate spoke strongly about that; I agree that we suspendable could be increased from 12 months to two must check its interaction with other offences. That years. That would add to judges’ discretion, but it is not point was also made in a different way by my hon. a requirement to suspend in cases of offences that could Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and the attract two-year sentences. hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander). I I can confirm to my hon. Friends the Members for note, however, that this is not an all-embracing review Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) and for Battersea of knife crime; it is filling a gap in existing legislation. (Jane Ellison) that we intend to get more offenders off We will be looking at the practical issues mentioned by drugs for good by using drug recovery wings and by my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Simon cracking down on the use of illicit drugs in prison. Reevell). Many hon. Members made strong points about that. Indeterminate sentences were a contentious issue for We also want to create a more transparent sentencing a number of Members, including my hon. Friend the framework, which was elaborated on very well by my Member for Shipley and the hon. Member for Darlington hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and (Mrs Chapman). Others, such as the right hon. Member North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips). for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) and my hon. Turning to our reforms of legal aid, I would like to Friend the Member for Broxtowe, supported the proposals. thank hon. Members for their contributions. 1063 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1064 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Mr Straw: Before the Minister turns to legal aid, will I firmly believe that the range of cases identified for he deal with the central proposal in respect of sentencing, inclusion within the scope of civil legal aid reflects the which is to restrict the ability of the courts to remand desire— defendants in custody in advance of trial? He skated lightly over that, saying absolutely nothing. Will he Mr Speaker: Order. There is quite a lot of chuntering confirm what it says on page 166 of the Bill, which is in the Chamber. I am sure that the Minister will want to that even where a defendant fails to surrender to bail, speak up a bit so that everyone can hear him that defendant cannot be remanded in custody unless Mr Djanogly: We must make tough choices and target there is a “real prospect” of a custodial sentence? Is that scarce legal aid on those who need it most. I am sorry to what is intended? tell the hon. Members for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) and the right Mr Djanogly: I shall write to the right hon. Gentleman. hon. Member for Manchester Gorton (Sir Gerald My understanding is that he is wrong on the issue. Kaufman) that legal aid has never been available for all Turning to legal aid, I thank hon. Members who have cases and that we simply need to prioritise our spending. contributed today and those who have responded to the The hon. Member for Sunderland Central said that consultation, along with some 5,000 other people. The everyone deserves their day in court. That might be so, Bill sets out those elements of the reform that will but mediation can sometimes be more appropriate. require primary legislation. We received a number of The Bill’s reforms are not limited to public funding detailed alternative proposals from respondents to our but extend to provisions to implement a fundamental consultation, including the Law Society. reform of privately funded no win, no fee conditional Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): On fee agreements. The changes we propose will rebalance a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister is not the CFA regime. making a speech or addressing the House; he is reading The right hon. Member for Tooting, incredibly, refused something into the record. to say whether he supports our attack on the compensation culture. Under current arrangements, claimants can Mr Speaker: That is a point not of order but of bring cases without any financial risk. Risk-free litigation frustration. encourages unnecessary or avoidable claims to be pursued and puts businesses and other defendants under pressure Mr Djanogly: We carefully considered those points in of excessive legal costs. Under our changes, claimants our consultation response, but we are clear that the using CFAs will have to think carefully about whether it proposals put forward by respondents do not, overall, is necessary to pursue their claim. I confirm to the hon. represent a realistic alternative to our programme of Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) that CFAs will still be reform. We can all agree on the need for greater efficiency. available for group actions against multinational companies. That point was made strongly by my right hon. Friend My right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon- the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), Tweed rightly mentioned fixed costs and referral fees, and we already plan to deliver £1 billion of the Ministry’s which we need to look at. My hon. Friend the Member savings through efficiencies. The Justice for All campaign for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) mentioned the also asked us to improve alternatives to legal processes disgraceful episode involving referral fees in relation to instead of cutting legal help. The Government seized miners’ compensation. The right hon. Member for the point, which is why we are increasing the funding Blackburn (Mr Straw) felt strongly about referral fees available for mediation by £10 million. Some 50% of the and made a number of valid suggestions that are outwith proposals suggested by the Law Society amounted to the direct scope of the Bill but do, I agree, need to be new taxation, but legal aid is primarily funded out of looked at. general taxation, and the Government are seeking to reduce the amount of public spending overall. The We are aware of the strong concern that the payment deficit is also shared across government, and suggestions of referral fees in personal injury cases adds to the costs of cost shifting will not address the overall financial of civil litigation. We are considering the issue and will position. announce the way forward in due course. I point out, however, that in 1999 claimant costs represented 50% of As the Lord Chancellor said earlier, we have the most damages but that by 2010 the figure had risen to 150%. expensive legal aid system in the world, except for The previous Government lost control of the situation. Northern Ireland. As my hon. Friend the Member for Under the relevant provisions in the Bill, the legal costs Carshalton and Wallington said, the Opposition have of all defendants facing CFA-funded claims will reduce. been quick to criticise but they have offered no viable That said, we recognise that there are complex and alternative. They profess to want to cut legal aid without difficult cases, such as clinical negligence cases, which saying what they would do. They propose to spend the Chairman of the Justice Committee, my hon. Friends £65 million more on social welfare. Does the right hon. the Members for Dewsbury and for Mid Bedfordshire Member for Tooting mean to say that he would cut and the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat criminal legal aid? If so, by how much would he cut it? Glass) raised. Our Jackson and legal aid reforms will By the way, we have looked into the proposals of address such cases. CFAs are a viable alternative to 20 March 2010, and they were on criminal competitive legal aid for these cases and the Bill will, exceptionally, tendering, so where will the right hon. Gentleman get enable the recovery of ATE insurance premiums for his savings? This is an unsustainable level of expenditure. expert reports in clinical negligence cases, in recognition In some cases the system encourages people to bring of the fact that they are important. issues before courts where other solutions might be better. In others, it enables people to pursue litigation Bridget Phillipson: Will the Minister answer the question that they would not contemplate were they paying for it I asked the Lord Chancellor earlier about whether the from their own pockets. Government will rethink their proposals to scrap legal 1065 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1066 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill aid for women applying for indefinite leave to remain Graham, Richard Maynard, Paul under the domestic violence rule? It is a very small Gray, Mr James McCartney, Jason number of women. Grayling, rh Chris McCartney, Karl Green, Damian McIntosh, Miss Anne Mr Djanogly: It is a small number but it is a complicated Greening, Justine McLoughlin, rh Mr point, so I shall write to the hon. Lady. Griffiths, Andrew Patrick Gummer, Ben McPartland, Stephen Taken together, this is a balanced and sensible package Gyimah, Mr Sam McVey, Esther of reforms of the kind that the Government were Hague, rh Mr William Mensch, Mrs Louise determined to achieve when we published our proposals. Halfon, Robert Menzies, Mark The overall effect will be to achieve significant savings Hames, Duncan Mercer, Patrick while protecting fundamental rights of access to justice. Hammond, rh Mr Philip Metcalfe, Stephen Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second Hammond, Stephen Miller, Maria Hancock, Matthew Mills, Nigel time. Hancock, Mr Mike Milton, Anne The House divided: Ayes 295, Noes 212. Hands, Greg Moore, rh Michael Harper, Mr Mark Mordaunt, Penny Division No. 310] [6.59 pm Harrington, Richard Morgan, Nicky Harris, Rebecca Morris, Anne Marie AYES Hart, Simon Morris, David Adams, Nigel Collins, Damian Harvey, Nick Morris, James Afriyie, Adam Colvile, Oliver Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mosley, Stephen Aldous, Peter Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hayes, Mr John Mowat, David Amess, Mr David Crabb, Stephen Heald, Oliver Mundell, rh David Baker, Norman Crockart, Mike Heath, Mr David Munt, Tessa Baker, Steve Crouch, Tracey Heaton-Harris, Chris Murray, Sheryll Baldry, Tony Davies, Glyn Hemming, John Murrison, Dr Andrew Baldwin, Harriett Davis, rh Mr David Henderson, Gordon Newmark, Mr Brooks Barclay, Stephen de Bois, Nick Hendry, Charles Newton, Sarah Barker, Gregory Dinenage, Caroline Herbert, rh Nick Nokes, Caroline Baron, Mr John Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hinds, Damian Norman, Jesse Barwell, Gavin Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hoban, Mr Mark O’Brien, Mr Stephen Bebb, Guto Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey Hollingbery, George Offord, Mr Matthew Beith, rh Sir Alan M. Holloway, Mr Adam Ollerenshaw, Eric Beresford, Sir Paul Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hopkins, Kris Ottaway, Richard Berry, Jake Dorries, Nadine Howell, John Paice, rh Mr James Bingham, Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Hughes, rh Simon Parish, Neil Binley, Mr Brian Duddridge, James Huhne, rh Chris Patel, Priti Birtwistle, Gordon Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Pawsey, Mark Blackman, Bob Duncan Smith, rh Mr Hunter, Mark Penning, Mike Blunt, Mr Crispin Iain Hurd, Mr Nick Penrose, John Boles, Nick Dunne, Mr Philip Jackson, Mr Stewart Phillips, Stephen Bone, Mr Peter Ellis, Michael James, Margot Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bottomley, Sir Peter Ellison, Jane Javid, Sajid Pincher, Christopher Bradley, Karen Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jenkin, Mr Bernard Poulter, Dr Daniel Brady, Mr Graham Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Gareth Pritchard, Mark Brake, Tom Eustice, George Johnson, Joseph Pugh, John Bray, Angie Evans, Graham Jones, Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic Brazier, Mr Julian Evans, Jonathan Jones, Mr David Randall, rh Mr John Brine, Mr Steve Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr Marcus Reckless, Mark Brokenshire, James Fabricant, Michael Kelly, Chris Redwood, rh Mr John Brooke, Annette Fallon, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Rees-Mogg, Jacob Browne, Mr Jeremy Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Reid, Mr Alan Bruce, Fiona Field, Mr Mark Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bruce, rh Malcolm Foster, rh Mr Don Lamb, Norman Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Buckland, Mr Robert Fox,rhDrLiam Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Robertson, Hugh Burley, Mr Aidan Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Robertson, Mr Laurence Burns, Conor Freeman, George Laws, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan Burns, rh Mr Simon Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Rosindell, Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Ruffley, Mr David Byles, Dan Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Russell, Bob Cable, rh Vince Gale, Mr Roger Lefroy, Jeremy Rutley, David Cairns, Alun Garnier, Mr Edward Leigh, Mr Edward Sanders, Mr Adrian Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Garnier, Mark Leslie, Charlotte Sandys, Laura Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair George, Andrew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Scott, Mr Lee Carmichael, Neil Gibb, Mr Nick Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Carswell, Mr Douglas Gilbert, Stephen Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Chishti, Rehman Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lord, Jonathan Sharma, Alok Chope, Mr Christopher Glen, John Loughton, Tim Shelbrooke, Alec Clappison, Mr James Goldsmith, Zac Luff, Peter Simmonds, Mark Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Goodwill, Mr Robert Lumley, Karen Skidmore, Chris Coffey, Dr Thérèse Gove, rh Michael Macleod, Mary Smith, Miss Chloe 1067 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1068 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Smith, Henry Walker, Mr Charles Godsiff, Mr Roger Nandy, Lisa Smith, Julian Walker, Mr Robin Goggins, rh Paul Nash, Pamela Smith, Sir Robert Wallace, Mr Ben Goodman, Helen Nuttall, Mr David Soubry, Anna Walter, Mr Robert Greatrex, Tom O’Donnell, Fiona Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Ward, Mr David Green, Kate Onwurah, Chi Spencer, Mr Mark Watkinson, Angela Greenwood, Lilian Owen, Albert Stephenson, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Griffith, Nia Pearce, Teresa Stevenson, John Webb, Steve Gwynne, Andrew Percy, Andrew Stewart, Bob Wharton, James Hain, rh Mr Peter Perkins, Toby Stewart, Iain Wheeler, Heather Hamilton, Mr David Phillipson, Bridget Stewart, Rory White, Chris Hamilton, Fabian Pound, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Whittaker, Craig Hanson, rh Mr David Qureshi, Yasmin Stride, Mel Whittingdale, Mr John Havard, Mr Dai Raynsford, rh Mr Stuart, Mr Graham Wiggin, Bill Hillier, Meg Nick Sturdy, Julian Willetts, rh Mr David Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reed, Mr Jamie Swales, Ian Williams, Roger Hollobone, Mr Philip Reeves, Rachel Swayne, Mr Desmond Williams, Stephen Hopkins, Kelvin Reynolds, Jonathan Syms, Mr Robert Willott, Jenny Howarth, rh Mr George Riordan, Mrs Linda Tapsell, Sir Peter Wilson, Mr Rob Jackson, Glenda Robertson, John Timpson, Mr Edward Wollaston, Dr Sarah James, Mrs Siân Robinson, Mr Geoffrey C. Rotheram, Steve Tomlinson, Justin Wright, Simon Tredinnick, David Jarvis, Dan Ruane, Chris Young, rh Sir George Truss, Elizabeth Johnson, Diana Ruddock, rh Joan Zahawi, Nadhim Turner, Mr Andrew Jones, Graham Seabeck, Alison Tyrie, Mr Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Jones, Helen Shannon, Jim Uppal, Paul Mr Shailesh Vara and Jones, Mr Kevan Sharma, Mr Virendra Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Jeremy Wright Jowell, rh Tessa Sheerman, Mr Barry Joyce, Eric Sheridan, Jim NOES Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shuker, Gavin Keeley, Barbara Skinner, Mr Dennis Abrahams, Debbie Cooper, Rosie Kendall, Liz Slaughter, Mr Andy Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cooper, rh Yvette Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, rh Mr Andrew Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Corbyn, Jeremy Lammy, rh Mr David Smith, Angela Alexander, Heidi Crausby, Mr David Lavery, Ian Smith, Nick Ali, Rushanara Creagh, Mary Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Owen Allen, Mr Graham Creasy, Stella Leslie, Chris Spellar, rh Mr John Ashworth, Jon Cruddas, Jon Lewis, Mr Ivan Straw, rh Mr Jack Austin, Ian Cryer, John Lloyd, Tony Stringer, Graham Bailey, Mr Adrian Cunningham, Alex Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Stuart, Ms Gisela Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Mr Jim Lucas, Caroline Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Tony Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Lucas, Ian Tami, Mark Banks, Gordon Dakin, Nic Mactaggart, Fiona Thomas, Mr Gareth Barron, rh Mr Kevin Danczuk, Simon Mahmood, Mr Khalid Thornberry, Emily Bayley, Hugh Darling, rh Mr Alistair Mahmood, Shabana Timms, rh Stephen Beckett, rh Margaret David, Mr Wayne Mann, John Trickett, Jon Begg, Dame Anne Davies, Philip Marsden, Mr Gordon Benn, rh Hilary De Piero, Gloria McCabe, Steve Turner, Karl Benton, Mr Joe Denham, rh Mr John McCarthy, Kerry Twigg, Stephen Berger, Luciana Dobbin, Jim McDonagh, Siobhain Umunna, Mr Chuka Betts, Mr Clive Dobson, rh Frank McDonnell, John Vaz, rh Keith Blears, rh Hazel Docherty, Thomas McFadden, rh Mr Pat Vaz, Valerie Blenkinsop, Tom Doran, Mr Frank McGovern, Alison Walley, Joan Blomfield, Paul Dowd, Jim McGovern, Jim Watson, Mr Tom Blunkett, rh Mr David Drax, Richard McKinnell, Catherine Watts, Mr Dave Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dromey, Jack Meacher, rh Mr Michael Whitehead, Dr Alan Brennan, Kevin Dugher, Michael Meale, Sir Alan Williams, Hywel Brown, Lyn Eagle, Ms Angela Michael, rh Alun Williamson, Chris Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Eagle, Maria Miliband, rh Edward Winnick, Mr David Bryant, Chris Efford, Clive Miller, Andrew Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Buck, Ms Karen Elliott, Julie Mitchell, Austin Wood, Mike Burden, Richard Ellman, Mrs Louise Moon, Mrs Madeleine Woodcock, John Burnham, rh Andy Engel, Natascha Morden, Jessica Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Byrne, rh Mr Liam Esterson, Bill Wright, David Morris, Grahame M. Campbell, Mr Alan Evans, Chris Wright, Mr Iain Campbell, Mr Ronnie Field, rh Mr Frank (Easington) Caton, Martin Fitzpatrick, Jim Mudie, Mr George Tellers for the Noes: Chapman, Mrs Jenny Flello, Robert Munn, Meg Phil Wilson and Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flynn, Paul Murphy, rh Paul Mark Hendrick Clwyd, rh Ann Fovargue, Yvonne Coaker, Vernon Francis, Dr Hywel Question accordingly agreed to. Coffey, Ann Glass, Pat Bill read a Second time. Connarty, Michael Glindon, Mrs Mary 1069 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1070 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill LEGAL AID, SENTENCING AND PUNISHMENT Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Andrew OF OFFENDERS BILL (PROGRAMME) Eustice, George Jones, Mr David Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Marcus Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris Order No. 83A(7)), Evennett, Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg That the following provisions shall apply to the Legal Aid, Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill: Fallon, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Committal Featherstone, Lynne Lamb, Norman 1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee. Field, Mr Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Foster, rh Mr Don Latham, Pauline Proceedings in Public Bill Committee Fox,rhDrLiam Laws, rh Mr David 2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not Francois, rh Mr Mark Leadsom, Andrea previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday Freeman, George Lee, Jessica 13 October 2011. Freer, Mike Lee, Dr Phillip 3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the Fullbrook, Lorraine Leech, Mr John first day on which it meets. Fuller, Richard Lefroy, Jeremy Consideration and Third Reading Gale, Mr Roger Leigh, Mr Edward 4. Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously Garnier, Mr Edward Leslie, Charlotte concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings George, Andrew Lilley, rh Mr Peter are commenced. Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Stephen 5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously Gilbert, Stephen Lord, Jonathan concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim on that day. Glen, John Luff, Peter Goldsmith, Zac Lumley, Karen 6. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading. Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Gove, rh Michael Maynard, Paul Other proceedings Graham, Richard McCartney, Jason 7. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Karl on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages Gray, Mr James McIntosh, Miss Anne from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Mr Dunne.) Grayling, rh Chris McLoughlin, rh Mr The House divided: Ayes 289, Noes 205. Green, Damian Patrick Greening, Justine McPartland, Stephen Division No. 311] [7.14 pm Griffiths, Andrew McVey, Esther Gummer, Ben Menzies, Mark AYES Gyimah, Mr Sam Mercer, Patrick Adams, Nigel Burns, rh Mr Simon Hague, rh Mr William Metcalfe, Stephen Afriyie, Adam Burrowes, Mr David Halfon, Robert Miller, Maria Aldous, Peter Burstow, Paul Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Amess, Mr David Byles, Dan Hammond, Stephen Milton, Anne Baker, Norman Cable, rh Vince Hancock, Matthew Moore, rh Michael Baker, Steve Cairns, Alun Hancock, Mr Mike Mordaunt, Penny Baldry, Tony Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hands, Greg Morgan, Nicky Baldwin, Harriett Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Barclay, Stephen Carmichael, Neil Harrington, Richard Morris, David Barker, Gregory Carswell, Mr Douglas Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Baron, Mr John Chishti, Rehman Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Barwell, Gavin Clappison, Mr James Harvey, Nick Mowat, David Bebb, Guto Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mundell, rh David Beith, rh Sir Alan Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hayes, Mr John Munt, Tessa Beresford, Sir Paul Collins, Damian Heald, Oliver Murray, Sheryll Berry, Jake Colvile, Oliver Heath, Mr David Murrison, Dr Andrew Bingham, Andrew Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks Binley, Mr Brian Crabb, Stephen Hemming, John Newton, Sarah Birtwistle, Gordon Crockart, Mike Hendry, Charles Nokes, Caroline Blackman, Bob Crouch, Tracey Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse Blunt, Mr Crispin Davies, Glyn Hinds, Damian O’Brien, Mr Stephen Boles, Nick Davis, rh Mr David Hoban, Mr Mark Offord, Mr Matthew Bottomley, Sir Peter de Bois, Nick Hollingbery, George Ollerenshaw, Eric Bradley, Karen Dinenage, Caroline Holloway, Mr Adam Ottaway, Richard Brady, Mr Graham Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Paice, rh Mr James Brake, Tom Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Howell, John Parish, Neil Bray, Angie Dorries, Nadine Hughes, rh Simon Patel, Priti Brazier, Mr Julian Doyle-Price, Jackie Huhne, rh Chris Pawsey, Mark Brine, Mr Steve Duddridge, James Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Penning, Mike Brokenshire, James Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hurd, Mr Nick Penrose, John Brooke, Annette Duncan Smith, rh Mr Jackson, Mr Stewart Phillips, Stephen Browne, Mr Jeremy Iain James, Margot Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bruce, Fiona Dunne, Mr Philip Javid, Sajid Pincher, Christopher Bruce, rh Malcolm Ellis, Michael Jenkin, Mr Bernard Poulter, Dr Daniel Buckland, Mr Robert Ellison, Jane Johnson, Gareth Pritchard, Mark Burns, Conor Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Joseph Pugh, John 1071 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 1072 Punishment of Offenders Bill Punishment of Offenders Bill Raab, Mr Dominic Swayne, Mr Desmond Dobson, rh Frank McCarthy, Kerry Randall, rh Mr John Syms, Mr Robert Docherty, Thomas McDonagh, Siobhain Reckless, Mark Tapsell, Sir Peter Dodds, rh Mr Nigel McDonnell, John Redwood, rh Mr John Thurso, John Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey McFadden, rh Mr Pat Rees-Mogg, Jacob Timpson, Mr Edward M. McGovern, Alison Reid, Mr Alan Tomlinson, Justin Doran, Mr Frank McGovern, Jim Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Truss, Elizabeth Dowd, Jim McKinnell, Catherine Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Drax, Richard Meacher, rh Mr Michael Robertson, Hugh Tyrie, Mr Andrew Dromey, Jack Meale, Sir Alan Robertson, Mr Laurence Uppal, Paul Dugher, Michael Michael, rh Alun Rogerson, Dan Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Eagle, Ms Angela Miller, Andrew Rosindell, Andrew Walker, Mr Charles Eagle, Maria Mitchell, Austin Efford, Clive Moon, Mrs Madeleine Ruffley, Mr David Walker, Mr Robin Russell, Bob Elliott, Julie Morden, Jessica Wallace, Mr Ben Rutley, David Ellman, Mrs Louise Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Walter, Mr Robert Sanders, Mr Adrian Engel, Natascha Morris, Grahame M. Ward, Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Esterson, Bill (Easington) Watkinson, Angela Selous, Andrew Evans, Chris Mudie, Mr George Shapps, rh Grant Weatherley, Mike Field, rh Mr Frank Munn, Meg Sharma, Alok Webb, Steve Fitzpatrick, Jim Murphy, rh Paul Shelbrooke, Alec Wharton, James Flello, Robert Nandy, Lisa Simmonds, Mark Wheeler, Heather Flynn, Paul Nash, Pamela Skidmore, Chris White, Chris Fovargue, Yvonne Nuttall, Mr David Smith, Miss Chloe Whittaker, Craig Francis, Dr Hywel O’Donnell, Fiona Smith, Henry Whittingdale, Mr John Glass, Pat Onwurah, Chi Smith, Julian Wiggin, Bill Glindon, Mrs Mary Owen, Albert Smith, Sir Robert Willetts, rh Mr David Godsiff, Mr Roger Pearce, Teresa Soubry, Anna Williams, Roger Goggins, rh Paul Percy, Andrew Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Williams, Stephen Goodman, Helen Perkins, Toby Spencer, Mr Mark Willott, Jenny Greatrex, Tom Phillipson, Bridget Stephenson, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Green, Kate Pound, Stephen Stevenson, John Wollaston, Dr Sarah Greenwood, Lilian Qureshi, Yasmin Stewart, Bob Wright, Jeremy Griffith, Nia Raynsford, rh Mr Gwynne, Andrew Nick Stewart, Iain Wright, Simon Stewart, Rory Hain, rh Mr Peter Reed, Mr Jamie Young, rh Sir George Streeter, Mr Gary Hamilton, Mr David Reeves, Rachel Zahawi, Nadhim Stride, Mel Hamilton, Fabian Reynolds, Jonathan Stuart, Mr Graham Tellers for the Ayes: Hanson, rh Mr David Robertson, John Sturdy, Julian Mr Shailesh Vara and Havard, Mr Dai Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Swales, Ian Mark Hunter Hillier, Meg Rotheram, Steve Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Ruane, Chris NOES Hollobone, Mr Philip Ruddock, rh Joan Hopkins, Kelvin Seabeck, Alison Abrahams, Debbie Campbell, Mr Alan Howarth, rh Mr George Shannon, Jim Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Campbell, Mr Ronnie James, Mrs Siân Sharma, Mr Virendra Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Caton, Martin C. Sheerman, Mr Barry Alexander, Heidi Chapman, Mrs Jenny Jarvis, Dan Shuker, Gavin Ali, Rushanara Clarke, rh Mr Tom Johnson, Diana Skinner, Mr Dennis Allen, Mr Graham Clwyd, rh Ann Jones, Graham Slaughter, Mr Andy Ashworth, Jon Coaker, Vernon Jones, Helen Smith, rh Mr Andrew Bailey, Mr Adrian Coffey, Ann Jones, Mr Kevan Smith, Angela Bain, Mr William Connarty, Michael Jowell, rh Tessa Smith, Nick Banks, Gordon Cooper, Rosie Joyce, Eric Smith, Owen Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cooper, rh Yvette Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Spellar, rh Mr John Bayley, Hugh Corbyn, Jeremy Keeley, Barbara Straw, rh Mr Jack Beckett, rh Margaret Crausby, Mr David Kendall, Liz Stuart, Ms Gisela Begg, Dame Anne Creagh, Mary Khan, rh Sadiq Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Benn, rh Hilary Creasy, Stella Lammy, rh Mr David Tami, Mark Benton, Mr Joe Cruddas, Jon Lavery, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Berger, Luciana Cryer, John Lazarowicz, Mark Thornberry, Emily Betts, Mr Clive Cunningham, Alex Leslie, Chris Timms, rh Stephen Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Mr Lewis, Mr Ivan Trickett, Jon Blenkinsop, Tom Jim Lloyd, Tony Turner, Karl Blomfield, Paul Cunningham, Tony Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Twigg, Stephen Blunkett, rh Mr David Dakin, Nic Lucas, Caroline Umunna, Mr Chuka Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Danczuk, Simon Lucas, Ian Vaz, rh Keith Brennan, Kevin Darling, rh Mr Alistair Mactaggart, Fiona Vaz, Valerie Brown, rh Mr Nicholas David, Mr Wayne Mahmood, Mr Khalid Walley, Joan Bryant, Chris Davies, Philip Mahmood, Shabana Watts, Mr Dave Burden, Richard De Piero, Gloria Mann, John Whitehead, Dr Alan Burnham, rh Andy Denham, rh Mr John Marsden, Mr Gordon Williams, Hywel Byrne, rh Mr Liam Dobbin, Jim McCabe, Steve Williamson, Chris 1073 Legal Aid, Sentencing and 29 JUNE 2011 1074 Punishment of Offenders Bill Wilson, Phil Wright, David That the draft Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Winnick, Mr David Wright, Mr Iain Act 2007 (Amendment) Order 2011, which was laid before this Winterton, rh Ms Rosie House on 16 May, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.) Wood, Mike Tellers for the Noes: Question agreed to. Woodcock, John Lyn Brown and Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Mark Hendrick Order No. 118(6)),

Question accordingly agreed to. PARLIAMENT That the draft Insolvency Act 1986 (Disqualification from Parliament) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on LEGAL AID, SENTENCING AND PUNISHMENT 3May,beapproved.—(Mr Dunne.) OF OFFENDERS BILL (WAYS AND MEANS) Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)), Order No. 118(6)), That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Legal Aid, PENSIONS Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, it is expedient to That the draft Pensions Act 2008 (Abolition of Protected authorise— Rights) (Consequential Amendments) (No. 2) Order 2011, which (1) the imposition of charges by virtue of the Act in connection was laid before this House on 16 May, be approved. with motor vehicle orders, That the draft Pensions Act 2007 (Abolition of Contracting-out (2) the making of deductions from, or the imposition of levies for Defined Contribution Pension Schemes) (Consequential on, payments to prisoners and persons required to be detained in Amendments) (No. 2) Regulations 2011, which were laid before young offender institutions, and this House on 16 May, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.) (3) the payment of sums into the Consolidated Fund.— Question agreed to. (Mr Dunne.) Question agreed to. PETITION Khalsa Academy (Slough)

LEGAL AID, SENTENCING AND PUNISHMENT 7.28 pm OF OFFENDERS BILL (MONEY) Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I have the honour Queen’s recommendation signified. to present, on behalf of the Slough Sikh Education Trust and members of the Sikh community in Slough Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing and south Buckinghamshire, a petition in support of Order No. 52(1)(a)), Khalsa secondary school in Slough. This afternoon, That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Legal Aid, together with officers of the trust, I presented a petition Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, it is expedient to in similar terms, with 1,500 signatures, to the office of authorise— the Prime Minister. I am trying to speak slowly so that (1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any the Secretary of State for Education will hear me, expenditure incurred by a Minister of the Crown by virtue of the Act, and because the promoters of the petition tell me that he gave a pledge that he would help them to ensure the (2) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided.—(Mr Dunne.) building of the school, if it was the only site they could find. That is indeed the case, and that is what the Question agreed to. petition deals with. The petition states: Business without Debate The Humble Petition of the Slough Sikh Education Trust and members of the Sikh community within Slough and South Buckinghamshire. DELEGATED LEGISLATION Sheweth that the application of the Slough Sikh Education Trust to build and open a new Sikh Secondary Faith School, Mr Speaker: With the leave of the House, it will be Khalsa Academy, in September 2012, was submitted in June convenient to take motions 6 to 8 and 10 and 11 2011; that the Academy is to be sited next to the existing successful together. Sikh primary school; and that the trustees have, over the past Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing year, exhausted all other feasible site options in the Slough area. Order No. 118(6)), I must say that I know that, because I have been helping them. The petition continues: CRIMINAL LAW Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your honourable House urges the Government to approve the application of the Slough That the draft Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act Sikh Education Trust to build and open the Khalsa Academy in 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order September 2012; and to support their endeavours to build the 2011, which was laid before this House on 5 April, be approved. school on land near the existing Sikh Primary School. That the draft Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray &c. Act 2007 (Commencement No. 3) Order 2011, which was laid [P000933] before this House on 16 May, be approved. 1075 29 JUNE 2011 Home Ownership (Armed Forces) 1076

Home Ownership (Armed Forces) range of issues, and the Minister for Housing and Local Government, who is in his place, has also made encouraging Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House announcements in the past week. do now adjourn.—(Mr Dunne.) Housing agents will be dispatched to barracks throughout 7.30 pm the country and abroad to help troops apply to buy a home under the £500 million Firstbuy scheme, which John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): I welcome the opportunity aims to help more than 10,000 households purchase a to bring this important matter to the Floor of the new build home over the next two years. There are some House. It is a vital matter for serving armed forces questions about that, however. Who are the agents? Will personnel, and I speak today as someone who wants to they be paid? Will they be on commission? How often make some constructive suggestions to the Minister in will they visit personnel? And, what qualifications do order to improve the uptake of mortgages. I do not they have? think that that will mean new financial commitments from or undertakings by the Government, but I hope The first indications from those who have been observing that it will deliver meaningful savings, if implemented this matter are that, in the Firstbuy paperwork, priority well. I am particularly grateful for the support of my for housing will be given to existing social tenants and hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) MOD personnel, so service personnel will not receive and the hon. Members for St Austell and Newquay quite the priority that was suggested in the announcement (Stephen Gilbert) and for Ellesmere Port and Neston by the Minister a week ago. Though that was welcome, (Andrew Miller), who will contribute later. it is still the case that there is very little social housing in this country and most property is owned by housing Before I focus on access to mortgages, I pay tribute to associations. If we want to tackle this problem in its Heropreneurs, a new charity founded by Richard Morris entirety, we have to unlock the issue of housing associations with the relatively simple aim of providing those who having the autonomy to decide what to do with properties. leave the armed forces with an entire business package, The challenge is to make them open up the categories of including start-up capital via a debt-for-equity model, person to whom they let property. An ongoing concern pro bono legal and financial advice, a dedicated mentor, is that service personnel no longer receive a discount access to second-stage funding and a support network towards purchasing their social housing or housing of people who have already made that journey from association property. In the past, time served in service military to civilian life. families accommodation would count towards the discount One beneficiary of Heropreneurs is Nick Cowan, a when buying their council house. The removal of that former colour sergeant with 23 years’ service in the rule offers some challenges. Royal Green Jackets, who has set up a not-for-profit company called Mortgage for Life, which enables those The challenges remain significant. As a member of in the armed forces to buy accommodation at significantly the Select Committee on Defence, I am clear that thousands reduced cost via special deals that it sets up with developers, of personnel will leave the services in the next six banks and building societies. Mr Cowan has met various months and, while specific initiatives will assist in the hon. Members, including the Minister for the Armed short term, we need to do more to change the lending Forces and the leadership of the Council of Mortgage culture towards the armed forces. The Council of Mortgage Lenders. Lenders has confirmed that the industry supports measures to help overcome barriers to home ownership for military In discussions with Heropreneurs and Nick Cowan, personnel. The mortgage application process will be however, it has become clear that there are specific refined and lenders will accept the principle that serving issues with enabling service personnel to get on the men and women should not be disadvantaged, but the housing ladder prior to their exit point, so I want to details are important. It is critical that this is put right. focus on that and on how the Ministry of Defence and the Department for Communities and Local Government I understand that we will shortly get to the point can enable more serving armed forces personnel to where lenders’ systems do not reject applications because overcome the particular inhibitors of their employment they come from British Forces Post Office addresses, so status in order to access the housing market in the same we should be in a situation where prospective lenders way as their civilian peers. take applications from military staff out of their automated Despite the investment of Governments before and response processes, where appropriate. It is astonishing after the general election, the National Audit Office has that there are these barriers to service personnel that found that the MOD did not have sufficient mean that they cannot get beyond the application stage. accommodation overall to meet current demand; I understand that that industry is producing top tips that, if it did, the properties were in the wrong location; for prospective borrowers from the services to assist and that many did not match the need among those them with key elements of the mortgage application families in the right places. The NAO estimates that it process, and that is welcome. However, it is critical that will take two decades to sort that out, so the MOD is the Minister ensures that this recently announced initiative spending £38 million on maintaining vacant properties is embedded in the mindset of the MOD. We cannot and paying out £16 million annually on private rented have the MOD saying, “Well, we’ve been doing it this accommodation. way for some time and we don’t need your assistance, One way to resolve those issues and high costs is to thank you.” We need a cross-departmental approach to make home ownership a more accessible alternative ensure that the best outcomes are secured for these option. It is potentially a cost-saving alternative to people who do so much for their country. There are real private rentals, and the MOD is responding. Giving the barriers that materially disadvantage service or ex-service military covenant statutory force means that we have personnel in securing a mortgage—in short, they cannot some confidence in the seriousness with which it takes a get credit scored simply because of their profession. 1077 Home Ownership (Armed Forces)29 JUNE 2011 Home Ownership (Armed Forces) 1078

I shall set out some of the key issues for consideration. The scheme was a good idea, but what the hon. Gentleman Heropreneurs and Nick Cowan have written a mortgage has highlighted is a whole range of different parts of manifesto, which addresses how staff in retail branch this problem that go much deeper than we first thought. networks handle mortgage applications and how they The matter requires fresh thinking on a cross-departmental should have clear and consistent guidelines on how to basis to ensure that we can persuade the various lending treat certain savings products. Armed forces personnel authorities to treat service personnel in the way that the should have access to the best possible discounts and hon. Gentleman has described. Service personnel are fixed and tracker products, in line with those that special to us and they deserve special treatment in all civilian members of the public can access. Lenders sorts of ways. should no longer be able to charge serving armed forces I am quite convinced, having looked at the challenge, personnel more for life assurance premiums in relation that it is perfectly feasible for any self-respecting building to policies that are required to support a successful society listening to the debate to find a vehicle that will mortgage application than they do civilians of the same work for this category. If a single building society can age. The Council of Mortgage Lenders, the British do it, perhaps others will, too. I should like the Minister Bankers Association and their respective members should to commit the Government to work with the private have a dedicated armed forces and veterans page on sector to bring that about. their retailing banking websites to give specific financial Such work needs to cross a number of boundaries. advice to those clients. With long-term planning for service personnel, their Strong consideration needs to be given to providing family situations would be more stable, and they would better quality advice within the armed services themselves. stay in the services for the longer term. Part of that It is critical that, embedded within training at different work spills over into education. The Minister needs to stages, serving personnel can get advice and access to liaise with his colleagues in education, so that we overcome independent financial advisers. I am not saying that the the other little barrier: the placement of young Minister or the MOD should become IFAs, but they schoolchildren when people leave the forces to ensure should facilitate wise advice. If investment decisions are that they are in stable school environments within the made when people are in their 20s they tend to determine geographical areas where their families plan to live. A how people will fare in their 40s and 50s, and they will holistic approach is needed, and the problem can be have an impact on the generation that comes after them. solved with a bit of joined-up thinking. All serving armed forces personnel should have the opportunity on at least an annual basis to receive specialist 7.45 pm advice. The issues relating to the use of long service advance of pay should be simplified as a matter of The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant urgency, so that there is a clear presumption in favour of Shapps): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for the money being used to put down a deposit or pay for Salisbury (John Glen) on calling this debate on a subject the legal fees associated with a mortgage application. that is enormously important to many hon. Members At the moment, that seems very difficult to deal with. and to people beyond. The constructive and helpful The resistance to allowing people to secure a buy-to-let manner in which he has addressed the issue is appreciated. property also inhibits take-up. It is right that we do everything possible to honour those who have served this country, who have gone out Let me finish by acknowledging that the Minister has of their way and put their lives on the line. In my view taken a lead in addressing some of the issues. I am here and, in fact, that of the Prime Minister—he said it from to urge him to go further, to work with his MOD this very Dispatch Box earlier today—it is not enough colleagues and all Ministers across Government to ensure simply to remove the disadvantages that having been that our armed services personnel get the best that they away from home might bring. If we put ourselves in the deserve. The core concerns underlying this debate are position of those who defend the rest of us, we see that beginning to be addressed. The matter has such serious it is fair to expect them to be given a foot on the housing implications for the financial well-being of our servicemen ladder as well. I want to make it a specific goal of the that we need to look broadly and deeply into this issue Government to ensure not only that we are removing and at every aspect of it to ensure that we achieve what those disadvantages but that we are actively helping. rhetoric and headlines would have us believe will be the outcome. My hon. Friend raises a number of key points, some of which we have already been talking about. I will try to address his concerns. He refers to the Firstbuy initiative 7.41 pm that we launched recently and ensuring that those who have served this country are at the top of the Firstbuy Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): I list. He rightly points out that it should help 10,000 or congratulate the hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) 10,500 families to purchase homes. I want to ensure that on picking up the baton on this issue. Like me, he met our ex-servicemen are at the front of the line to do that, Richard Morris from Heropreneurs a couple of weeks and we have said that we will ensure that they are. They ago. I first knew Richard when he was involved in the are being prioritised right at the top, along with people Bright Ideas Trust and he is an extraordinary character at the top of the housing waiting list, it is true to say. who puts an amazing amount of energy into helping None the less, I intend to ensure that we properly other people, and all credit to him. promote the scheme to those who are in the target There are the beginnings of a solution in the pilots category. In doing so, we will send Firstbuy special that the Minister inherited from the previous agents into military bases here and abroad, as my hon. Administration. There was a £20 million shared equity Friend mentions, to ensure that we find the right people, scheme, which was jointly supported by the MOD and so that they know about the schemes. That activity is the Department for Communities and Local Government. already under way, and I can put my hon. Friend’s mind 1079 Home Ownership (Armed Forces)29 JUNE 2011 Home Ownership (Armed Forces) 1080

[Grant Shapps] came out of that meeting—from the Firstbuy discussions, to what more we can do to let our armed forces have a to rest about the detail of that scheme by letting him fair crack of the whip at social housing, and to the know that the network of Firstbuy agents is already in problems that he eloquently outlined involving how place and active. For example, I have the marketing British Forces Post Office addresses have not qualified, material that they are sending to barracks to promote until now, with the credit reference agencies that all the the scheme. mortgage lenders use when assessing a mortgage My hon. Friend mentioned social housing. Of course, application. That is an extraordinary problem that should people do not always want to return to purchase houses, be solved easily. I can inform the House that we have as that might not suit their situation. They might return been working to resolve it for several months, since the and want to get on to the social housing waiting lists. coalition came to office. We are fairly close to a resolution. Again, I have some good news for him: I intend to Andrew Miller: The Minister is making an important consult on how we can better handle their position on point. Will he send a strong message to all credit reference the social housing waiting lists. I am determined—I am agencies that both the Government and the Opposition sure that the whole House is—to ensure that people do are incredibly proud of BFPO? It reflects an important not return and find themselves languishing at the bottom part of our society, and we regard it as an insult to our of the housing waiting lists, perhaps because a local troops that they should be treated in that way by credit authority is trying to apply a local connection rule. That reference agencies. is completely wrong, so I reassure my hon. Friend that we will consult on a better way to ensure that returning Grant Shapps: The point has been made clearly, and I squaddies are at the top of that list. hear that other hon. Members agree, as do the Government. We have been discussing the matter and are close to Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): First, on social housing, resolution. It is an example of how a tiny piece of I urge the Government to ensure that those councils bureaucracy can cause complete mayhem for somebody’s with large garrison communities have additional resources future life. The inability to score highly on a credit if that priority is to be meaningful. Secondly, I seek the record is important, and it is only a matter of a software Minister’s assurance about the failings of an organisation change—the computers at Experian and elsewhere simply called Blue Force that was based in my constituency need to be able to accept BFPO postcodes so that they and operated from the former Colchester barracks with do not create a problem. Indeed, it could be part of the MOD phone numbers. It was set up to encourage solution, because once it has been flagged up that serving personnel around the world to buy, but it went somebody has been in the military, all the additional under owing hundreds of thousands of pounds, with assistance that I have mentioned— for example, Firstbuy— many serving military personnel losing thousands could be brought to bear simply through that information individually. coming to light. I have found the Council of Mortgage Lenders and others to be very helpful in trying to Grant Shapps: On the first point, my hon. Friend is resolve the problem, and we are not far off making an absolutely right that resources need to follow. He will be announcement. That is good progress. aware that we have launched not just the Firstbuy I can also report that the scheme managed by the scheme to build 10,500 homes for purchase, but a range MOD that the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and of different schemes for affordable rent that will very Neston (Andrew Miller) mentioned is expected to help much apply across the country and aim to build 150,000- a minimum of 250 families into affordable home ownership. plus homes. Of course, as I announced a few moments I know that that will be widely welcomed. Of course, ago, we will ensure that military personnel are right up there are several other key challenges, and I intend to there on that list. I intend to consult on the matter after pick up on those themes at a further first-time buyers’ the Localism Bill has finished its progress through the housing summit, which I will hold on 5 July. I will add other place. The case of Blue Force is not one with some of those items to the agenda so that we can keep which I am familiar. I would be happy to receive further proper tabs on where we have reached. information on it. I believe that we are considering an issue that one It is interesting that my hon. Friend the Member for cannot simply approach once and expect it to be resolved. Salisbury raised the issue of right to buy and whether time outside the country counts towards the right to Andrew Miller rose— buy qualification. I am reliably informed that nothing has changed since the Housing Act 1985. This Government Grant Shapps: We have to keep returning to the certainly have not made any changes, and I do not think matter, just as the hon. Gentleman is about to do with that the previous Government did either. Again, I invite his intervention. him to provide details if he has any concerns about that. Andrew Miller: Will the Minister please add to his Someone who serves abroad should certainly not lose agenda the special tools that are needed to enable that time, when it should count toward their right to people to transfer from buy-to-rent to buy-to-live-in? A buy. special vehicle is needed for military personnel in that As my hon. Friend knows, I have promoted these category. That would help them to buy early, which issues, particularly by holding a military housing summit would obviously help later in their careers. on 16 May, the same day that the military covenant was launched. I sat around a table and held discussions with Grant Shapps: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I a range of military leaders, charity workers, defence have not examined that so far, and I am certainly happy officials and many others about how we can improve to add it to the agenda and give some thought to how the situation. I reassure him that a whole range of ideas we could assist. 1081 Home Ownership (Armed Forces)29 JUNE 2011 Home Ownership (Armed Forces) 1082

We are trying to assist in many different ways. One The bureaucratic barriers have got in the way. I commit strange problem is that, six months before someone is us to ensuring that, in every possible way, we will seek discharged, they get a notice of cessation, which tells out and actively try to destroy those barriers, taking on them that they will be moved out of their military board the excellent ideas that have been presented in accommodation. There is not much connectivity between debates such as tonight’s and any others, wherever they that and the local authority, which may not know that come from. It is my goal and the Government’s intention those people are about to come down the line and may to ensure that when those who have bravely served in be in need of housing help, advice or assistance. We the military come home, that bravery and the job that intend to join that process up as best we can. That is they did so selflessly is recognised by everybody in the important. country, particularly when it comes to housing needs. The more I have looked into the matter, the more it Question put and agreed to. strikes me that the key is joining all the dots. It is not that the country is not grateful and nobody wants to help—far from it. My experience has been the opposite. 7.56 pm However, the dots have not been sufficiently joined up. House adjourned.

269WH 29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 270WH

issue is a very important human rights one. I have heard Westminster Hall some excuses already. The UK Government representative at the ILO conference gave the following explanation: Wednesday 29 June 2011 “The United Kingdom already provides comprehensive employment and social protection to domestic workers; however, [MR GEORGE HOWARTH in the Chair] the strength of our general provisions means that it is occasionally inappropriate to treat domestic workers identically and, sadly, the Convention on Domestic Workers Convention does not recognize this. For example, we do not consider it appropriate or practical to extend criminal, health and Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting safety laws, including inspections, to private households employing be now adjourned.—(Stephen Crabb.) domestic workers. It would be difficult, for instance, to hold elderly individuals employing carers to the same standards as 9.30 am large companies. Accordingly, the United Kingdom will be unable Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I know that it is to ratify this Convention in the foreseeable future.” customary to praise the occupant of the Chair at such Colleagues who have raised the issue with the Minister moments as these, Mr Howarth, but I am very pleased get exactly the same formula and exactly the same “for indeed that you are presiding over this debate on such a example,” but my belief is that this is not one example critical issue. My aim in calling for the debate is to hold of many problems, but the only fig leaf that the Minister the Government to account for their unannounced can hang on to. A letter from him refers to refusal earlier this month to sign the International “those few areas, such as health and safety law”, Labour Organisation convention on domestic workers. and I hope that he will take the opportunity of this The convention’s introductory text describes why the debate to tell us what the other areas are in which it is protection is needed: inappropriate to treat domestic workers the same. “domestic work continues to be undervalued and invisible and is The Minister’s claim on the grounds of health and mainly carried out by women and girls, many of whom are migrants or members of disadvantaged communities and who are safety law is fundamentally unfounded, because he knows, particularly vulnerable to discrimination in respect of conditions even better than I do, that health and safety is implemented of employment and of work, and to other abuses of human incrementally. Local inspectors, if they engage with a rights”. company—I have worked for many small companies It is for that reason that there have been international and have never been inspected by a health and safety efforts over some years to produce a convention that inspector—usually offer advice notes before proceeding covers basic human and workplace rights for people all to criminal prosecution, unless there has been a death over the world who work in other people’s homes as or a very serious injury, for example. Perhaps the Minister cleaners or cooks, or do other kinds of domestic work. will therefore give specific examples of when small The convention will entitle them to the basic labour employers who are suspected not of putting customers’ standards that we expect for all workers. health at risk—I accept that there are criminal prosecutions I intend to show how, in the worst cases of abuse, in such cases—but of putting employees at risk, have some domestic workers in the UK are forced to work been subject to criminal prosecution and active investigation for no wages and are therefore basically slaves, others without prior advice, unless there has been a fatality or are subjected to sexual abuse and physical violence, a serious injury. I do not believe that there is the rash some are barely fed, many have only a floor to sleep on, of examples of heavy-handed health and safety and many earn a pittance and work extraordinarily implementation that the Minister implied in his letter. long hours. Some Members might feel that we did that In defence of the Government’s position, the spokesman yesterday in the House, but it is a regular occurrence for continued: people in these circumstances. “We do hope that the principles”— The convention serves to give international backing that the convention enshrines— to the right of domestic workers to protection against “can help to raise standards”. such abuses, and to entitle them to the dignity at work that every human being should expect, yet the UK I want the Minister to tell us, therefore, how the UK Government were one of only eight Governments to Government’s position will help to maintain standards abstain in the vote. Let us see what company we and enhance the rights and protections of domestic were in: the Governments of El Salvador, Panama, workers in the UK and around the world when, unlike the Czech Republic, Sudan, Malaysia, Singapore and the overwhelming majority of Governments, ours have Thailand. Swaziland did not vote in favour. All other actively chosen not to support the convention. 173 Governments voted in favour of the convention, The statement by the UK’s representative continues: including the USA and China. All the worker “Within the United Kingdom, we will continue to see proportionate representatives voted in favour, as did many employer improvements to the social and employment protections available representatives. It looks to me as if, in that list of to domestic workers where particular problems are identified.” shame—I do regard it as such—the UK is the country I would like to know what improvements we will see that is probably on its own in having a record of because, in my view, the Government are doing precisely receiving rather than generating victims of human the opposite of improving conditions for domestic workers. trafficking, a problem that is so rife in this sector. We On the very same day that the UK abstained in the vote, should be especially ashamed of that. the Government announced a consultation on proposed My first question to the Minister with responsibility changes to visas for the UK, including a proposal to for employment relations is: why was the UK one of end the domestic worker visa. That consultation includes only eight countries to abstain on this vital treaty, which options either to abolish the route for migrant domestic provides clear rights to the 100 million domestic workers workers to enter the UK, leaving them open to being around the world? This is not a small sector, and the brought in by employers through informal routes in 271WH Convention on Domestic Workers29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 272WH

[Fiona Mactaggart] that legal channel, trafficking of domestic workers via illegal routes will increase. Workers who do not benefit breach of immigration controls, or to restrict them to a from those protections, particularly domestic workers six or 12 month non-renewable visa and remove the who enter the UK accompanying diplomats, are more right for them to change employers, even if they are likely to be in slavery than those who work in private severely abused. households. Kalayaan’s figures show that seven in every 100 of the diplomatic workers they have seen were David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate trafficked, compared with one in 1,000 migrant domestic the hon. Lady on securing this very important debate. workers in private households. That shows how effective Leaving aside the fact that the coalition has failed to the visa is. vote on the convention—hopefully we will hear what Let us be clear: even when they are not trafficked, the Minister has to say on that—does she believe that these workers are commonly subject to the most grotesque the unions, the CBI or any other employment agencies abuse and exploitation. Kalayaan has produced figures are doing enough? Could they do a lot more? that show that two thirds of those who approached them did not have any time off—they worked seven Fiona Mactaggart: To my surprise, when I conclude days a week. Three quarters of them worked on call and my remarks, I am going to read a quote from the Centre had to be available 24 hours a day. More than half of for Social Justice. That is not normally a place to which them worked 16 or more hours a day, and 70% received I look for guidance, but when it launched its inquiry a salary of £50 or less a week. I do not think that the into human trafficking its director said that it was Minister is proud of that type of exploitation, but it is a critical that all the sectors—the Government, voluntary reality and the failure to sign up to the convention and organisations, employers and employees—worked together to take any effective action means that it will be a more on a coherent strategy to deal with this modern-day common reality in Britain. form of slavery. My contention is that the Government’s position is confused—if I am kind—or actively malevolent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, —if I am not—and that it is not working coherently Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): The hon. to deal with this serious and substantial human rights Lady has an excellent record on campaigning against problem in the UK. human trafficking and slavery. How would signing the Removing the right for migrant domestic workers to convention have helped to tackle slave labour and human change employer means a return to bonded labour. The trafficking in the UK? What difference would it have visa has been recognised as the main form of protection made to our domestic legislation? for this group of workers, who, as has been recognised by the international convention, are especially vulnerable Fiona Mactaggart: Signing the convention would make to severe exploitation, including slavery and trafficking a difference in three ways. The first is the signal it would for domestic servitude. Indeed, the 2009 report of the send to traffickers, who will otherwise believe, no doubt, Home Affairs Committee included the statement: that the UK is joining their infamous gang and saying “To retain the existing migrant domestic worker visa and the that this country is open to human trafficking. We protection it offers to workers is the single most important issue know how extensive human trafficking is in the UK and the government can do to prevent forced labour and trafficking” that it is more profitable than drug dealing. It is the of such workers. most profitable activity for organised crime, although At a time when the Government are choosing not to the field of human trafficking is unorganised as well as participate in an international convention, they are organised, because people as well as agencies supply choosing, domestically, to remove an important protection domestic workers. Moreover, individual families bring for migrant domestic workers against slavery and bondage. domestic workers with them. It is, therefore, important Removing the visa altogether will increase both trafficking that Britain sends out a signal that we are closed to that via illegal routes and unlawful working, which will leave kind of abuse. these workers believing that they are unable to contact Secondly, the victims themselves would also get a the authorities for assistance and with fewer, if any, signal. People who work with victims of trafficking enforceable rights. Limiting the length of the visa makes have told me that those victims believe that they have no it likely that unscrupulous employers will keep workers recourse to help and that the clear signal is that they are working for them beyond the length of the visa, again dependent on their owners/employers, who usually retain without any recourse to meaningful legal protection their passports. They do not believe that anyone can against severe exploitation. help them. They are frightened of approaching the The Government claim that anti-trafficking measures police and, frankly, our national referral mechanism is can replace the protections provided by the visa. I have an incompetent way for them to get help. talked to Kalayaan, whose work I praise. It is the most Thirdly, if we were signatories to the convention, the effective group that represents migrant domestic workers. Minister would have to do something about this level of I have known its work since about a quarter of a labour exploitation. Our laws apparently say, and we claim century ago, when it helped illegal entrants to the UK at international events, that we have fantastic working who did not know that they were illegal entrants. Together hours and protection and so on. However, 67% of the with others who work with victims of trafficking, it has migrant domestic workers who approached Kalayaan produced a report that shows how ineffective the measures said that they did not have any time off, were working we already have are in practice for all victims. seven days a week and worked on call for 24 hours a The report shows that the overseas domestic worker day, and more than half of them worked for 16 or more visa is a relatively inexpensive and effective way of hours a day. The Minister may say that the UK’s protecting migrant domestic workers, and that, without position is that people ought, voluntarily, to be able to 273WH Convention on Domestic Workers29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 274WH work for more than 16 hours a day, but I do not believe “The Government will seek a workable convention that can be that those workers were working voluntarily for more ratified by as many countries as possible, and consequently protect than 16 hours a day when their salary was £50 or less a vulnerable domestic workers worldwide”.—[Official Report,23May week. If the Minister were a signatory to the international 2011; Vol. 528, c. 469W.] convention, I think that he would actually have to do The Minister does, therefore, recognise that an international something about this level of labour exploitation in convention can protect vulnerable domestic workers people’s homes. worldwide. However, having abstained on the ILO vote, can the UK Government play a positive role in encouraging Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): other countries to ratify the convention or protecting Does the hon. Lady agree that the Government’s position vulnerable domestic workers worldwide? We have completely appears to be that signing the convention would either lost moral leadership. Will the Minister tell us what make no difference or create a series of other, consequential contribution he thinks Britain can make to international problems? Other nations, communities and countries action to protect this vulnerable group of workers? have supported and signed the convention, so does she also agree that the Minister should outline the difficulties Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the that the Government think have appeared and that the hon. Lady on bringing this most important matter to rest of us are unaware of? Westminster Hall for debate. As far as I am aware, she has not mentioned the UK Border Agency and the role Fiona Mactaggart: The hon. Gentleman is right. I that it should play in relation to the convention. Does think that we all find what has happened to be depressing. the hon. Lady feel that the UK Border Agency should be better resourced and equipped to help those migrant As well as being subject to labour exploitation, these workers who, in reality, are slave labour? Perhaps there workers are also subject to horrific working conditions. is a greater role for the UK Border Agency to play in the About half of those who approached Kalayaan did not matter. have their own room and had to sleep on the floor. We do not expect to see those sorts of working conditions Fiona Mactaggart: That organisation should be better in Britain in the 21st century. Two thirds of them were at dealing with the issue, but I am not sure that it is easy not allowed out unaccompanied, and two thirds had to do so properly at borders. That is one of the challenges. their passport withheld. That is unlawful. I know of no There needs to be an in-country resource to which prosecution, except in cases in which someone has vulnerable trafficked people know they can turn for succeeded in being declared as having been trafficked, help. Their fear is that if they turn to the authorities for but that applies to only a tiny minority of these poor help, they will be outed. Unfortunately, that happens victims. Many of them are also victims of psychological too often as those concerned are classed as illegal. For abuse. many people, that is through no fault of their own. I have tried to show the ways in which the abuse is They are here without status and they are illegal because widespread and serious. I do not want to accuse the their owner—we must not forget that we are talking Government of bad faith, but, having talked to people about a kind of ownership and slavery—has retained who participated in the ILO process, I was shocked at their passport unlawfully and has said, “Don’t worry, the way in which our national representative behaved I’ll sort this out,” and so on. during the negotiations as the agenda approached its There needs to be an effective in-country recourse conclusion. It suggested that our aim was not in any to which people in these circumstances can turn. way to improve conditions for these vulnerable workers. Unfortunately, the national referral mechanism frequently Apparently, the UK often led European Union amendments fails to provide that because it does not consider its first to attempt to dilute the convention in areas such as priority to be protecting the individual. There is a working hours and occupational safety and health. I laborious tick-box process and, because there is no real have described the working hours that migrant domestic prospect of prosecuting someone for trafficking and workers frequently face. Will the Minister tell us what getting a conviction, often the national referral mechanism working hours he thinks are reasonable for workers in will suggest that a person is not really trafficked. That is people’s homes? Does he think that they deserve effective, really sad. not theoretical, protection in relation to working hours? Even when all other countries had agreed on positions, Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): the United Kingdom cited continued objections to the Certainly we need to break the coalition’s “Upstairs, consensus, for example, on the working and living conditions Downstairs” mindset in relation to workplace issues. of children. What protections does the Minister think On the question of people having to report the horrific that children should have when working in other people’s circumstances in which they live, does my hon. Friend homes? The United Kingdom stated that the final text agree that the trade unions’ work on taking the evidence of the convention would be unratifiable. Indeed, the that was given—and I hope the Minister will arrange Government intend not to ratify the convention and meetings with the trade unions to talk through the will not even vote for it, citing apparent conflicts with issues—is vital? If the trade unions had not been there EU regulations. The EU bloc and all other major countries to pick up these issues, I doubt anyone else would have decided wholeheartedly to endorse and vote for the done so. convention, so the United Kingdom representative was the only dissenting voice in the plenary voting session Fiona Mactaggart: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. on the convention. One of the powerful things about the ILO is that it is On 23 May, less than a month prior to the final tripartite—it involves Governments, employers and trade decision, the Minister said in reply to a question asked unions. Where trade unions have picked up these issues, by two hon. Members about the matter: they have been brilliant. It has been difficult in some 275WH Convention on Domestic Workers29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 276WH

[Fiona Mactaggart] people are in slavery around the world, not just in domestic labour, but in bonded labour in factories and ways because trade unions have traditionally organised in prostitution. She is right to be concerned about the in big workplaces, and organising domestic workers has issue. been a challenge for them. I had the privilege of speaking From the hon. Lady’s remarks, hon. Members might to a Nepali trade unionist who talked about how she have gained the impression that the ILO convention had organised domestic workers in Nepal. Frankly, if would have an impact purely on those evil employers someone can organise domestic workers in Nepal, they who traffic people to be their domestic workers. In fact, must be a genius organiser. It was wonderful to hear the implications of the ILO convention are much wider about their work in connecting to this vulnerable group than that. The United Kingdom already provides significant of people. That was a strong piece of evidence about employment protection for domestic workers; in fact, in how trade unions can, by reaching out to people who general, it makes no distinction between domestic and are in these completely isolated workplaces, protect other workers. It is worth reminding hon. Members that workers very well. domestic workers benefit from being paid the national I want to draw my remarks to an end. I said that I minimum wage. They receive sick pay, paid annual leave would conclude by citing the Centre for Social Justice. and protection from unfair dismissal. That already exists When Gavin Poole, the executive director of that in United Kingdom law. We do not need an ILO convention. organisation, launched his very welcome inquiry into Those are rights enshrined in law by this Parliament. trafficking he wrote: What we need is greater enforcement. We need to seek “Enslaved in homes across the UK are vulnerable domestic out and identify employers who are behaving badly. workers who want to earn money cleaning and cooking, but instead have their passport seized by their ‘owner’ and are forbidden to leave the house in which they live and work; sleeping on the Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Is the hon. Gentleman kitchen floor and eating leftovers from the family meal is saying that, if we have something that is better than an commonplace. We believe that whilst there is much good work ILO convention, we should not sign up to it? That is going on in the UK to confront slavery, much of it led by the what he seems to be implying. He is implying that, if we voluntary sector, there is a need for a strategic overview to detail have something better, then we do not need it. Surely, if how this hidden criminal activity can be defeated once and for all. we have something better, it is not problematic to sign For instance, it is essential that all government departments, the up to it. voluntary sector, the police and local authorities move in the same direction in order for the UK’s response to be appropriate and effective…One slave in this country is one too many, and it is Andrew Selous: If the hon. Lady will allow me to time for the UK to take a lead again. I encourage people who develop my argument a little further, she will understand think slavery is a thing of the past to look again, and join the CSJ what I am saying. I just wanted to make the point as we work to help build a different future for people trapped in this tragedy.” regarding the protections that all of us are rightly concerned about. I have taken to task many employers The Minister’s coalition Government have borrowed in my constituency and elsewhere who have not behaved many ideas from the Centre for Social Justice. I hope properly towards their workers. We need to enforce the that they do not make this one an exception because, on law that we already have. I am looking for reassurance this matter, what we see are words going in one direction from the Minister, as, I am sure, are many hon. Members. and actions going in another direction. The Minister There is much in the text of the convention that he will should change his mind. Let us have another U-turn. be keen to apply. He will want to ensure that we root out evil employers who treat their domestic staff in the way 9.57 am described by the hon. Member for Slough. There is not one of us here, including me, who wants to see that Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): I continue. congratulate the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona There is much in the convention that is good, but Mactaggart) on securing this important debate. I, too, there are one or two areas that are problematic. One attended the launch of the Centre for Social Justice problem in particular is that it applies to other groups inquiry into modern-day slavery and human trafficking. of workers that the hon. Lady did not even mention in When I first heard at that event that the United Kingdom her remarks. She read out the list of countries that did had opted out of the convention, I must admit that I not sign the convention, including the United Kingdom. was worried. I did not know why we had done that. On What she did not tell us was that a number of countries the face of it, it sounded an odd thing to do and it did sign it, but then said that they were not going to concerned me greatly. However, I have to say to the hon. ratify it. Lady and other hon. Members that, when I looked more deeply into the issue, I realised that there were The United Kingdom has, quite rightly, very high reasons why the United Kingdom did so. standards when it comes to international agreements. The hon. Lady concentrated heavily on the issue of We are a country of our word. If we say that we are human trafficking, which she and I have made common going to do something, we do it. We play cricket, we cause on and no doubt we will continue to do so. I point believe in the rules and we follow them. It is pretty out to her that the United Kingdom has recently signed dishonest of many other countries, which she did not the European convention on human trafficking, and I name, to sign up to the convention and then say that am happy to admit that I was one of the Members who they will not be ratifying this bit or that bit. lobbied our Ministers heavily to do so because I thought it was the right thing to do. I join her in saying that Fiona Mactaggart: Canada, for example, said that it slavery and human trafficking is a modern evil; it is would find the convention difficult to ratify. I read the a disgrace that it goes on in our age. Some 27 million whole of the report, but I did not read that any country 277WH Convention on Domestic Workers29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 278WH said that they would not. They said that they would however, another group of perhaps 250,000 or 300,000 struggle to ratify it, and I think that that was simply workers who we have not heard about—child minders, being honest. carers, cleaners and housekeepers. We have not heard what the effect on their employment could be if the Andrew Selous: I am making a slightly different point. enforcement of this ILO convention is not got right. Some countries ratified the convention, but then said that they would not enforce it. I just think that that is Mr Gregory Campbell: The hon. Gentleman is outlining dishonest. The United Kingdom could have gone along potential consequences for the United Kingdom. Is and signed, got a pat on the back, not have had the there any evidence of any of those problems happening aggravation of having this debate today, and then quietly in the countries that have signed the convention? not done anything about it. I am proud that, as a country, if we say that we will do something, we do Andrew Selous: This is a new convention that is being it—that is important. signed, so neither the hon. Gentleman nor I know what will happen. I come back to my general point. Jim Sheridan: The hon. Gentleman is right to identify The hon. Member for Slough was good enough to the protection that workers have in this country. Does say that she was not necessarily imputing the motives of he understand, however, the frustration of people who the Government. I am just trying to explain, as I are frightened to raise these issues with their employer understand it, the rationale for the United Kingdom to for fear of losing their jobs? What would his suggestion hesitate. It is not because the Government, or any be for people who are not being paid the minimum members of it, are in favour of employers treating their wage, and who are being mistreated in the workplace? staff wrongly. On the contrary, as a Government, my What does he suggest that they do? hon. Friend the Minister and my hon. Friends here Andrew Selous: I am not sure that the convention today will say that we hold no candle for rogue employers. actually gives them any particular rights that they do We want employers to treat workers fairly and properly, not have under employment law. I suggest that they but we think carefully before we sign. contact Kalayaan, as the hon. Member for Slough said. The hon. Lady spoke just about human trafficking. There needs to be an education campaign. With evil From her remarks, we would not have thought that the people treating domestic workers like that, we need to convention would apply to many of our constituents find every opportunity to help them to realise what who work as carers, cleaners, nurses or housekeepers for rights they already have. our frail and elderly constituents who need extra help. All I say to hon. Members—who I think have come to Mr Davey: Before my hon. Friend moves on, his the Chamber for honourable and proper reasons, and point about the number of countries that are members for reasons that I think we all share—is that there are of the ILO not ratifying is very important for hon. wider implications to this issue. There could be unintended Members to understand. Only one of the 25 conventions consequences. I will press the Minister to ensure that we agreed in the ILO in the 20 years up to 2006 has enforce the convention—we can do this ourselves, we achieved more than 30 ratifications, although there are do not need to sign all parts of it—where we think that 183 members of the ILO. That speaks volumes for how it is right, and where we think it bears down properly some member states approach voting on conventions and legitimately on unscrupulous employers. I believe and subsequent ratification. that he will be able to give me that reassurance when he Andrew Selous: I am grateful to the Minister for comes to reply to the debate. giving us those points of detail, so that they are now on Several hon. Members rose— the record. The workers whom the hon. Member for Slough did Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. It may be not mention, and the reason that I have come to speak of assistance to those present if I point out that I intend in this debate today, are people such as child minders, to call the Opposition Front Bencher at 10.40 am. If carers, housekeepers, cleaners and nurses who work for those who speak in the meantime could keep their many of our frail and elderly constituents. The worry is remarks within that time frame, we should be able to fit that the imposition of criminal health and safety law in everybody in. people’s private homes could mean that some of our frail and elderly constituents could be forced out of 10.9 am their homes and into residential care. All I would say to Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): First, hon. Members is that they can come here and share my I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Slough passion, and the passion of the hon. Lady, against the (Fiona Mactaggart) for securing the debate. evils of human trafficking—we are as one in this Chamber on that issue. If she looks closely, however, at the text of May I start by telling a story? We need to bring alive the convention and its implications, inspectors could the human face of what we are talking about. It is about come into our constituents’ private homes, examine the a young Nigerian woman who was deserted by her rooms, gadgets and layout of the house, and perhaps father when she was five, went to live in Benin and came tell a frail, elderly lady that her home is not fit to have a to this country as a domestic servant. She told, in her carer. That lady could be forced to move into a residential own words, of her experience: home. “I would wake up at 7 am to start the work, bring the The Government are right to be wary of some of the 2 children to school and the youngest at 11.30 then picked them altogether at 3.00 pm. I did the general housework while the unintended consequences that they believe the ILO children at school. At night, I had to wait for my employer to convention could have. As I said earlier, it is important open the door even at midnight though she had a key. I didn’t for the Government to enforce those parts of the convention remember any single moment that she wasn’t angry, the moment I that are important and that we can agree on. There is, saw her, I felt very scared already.” 279WH Convention on Domestic Workers29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 280WH

[Jack Dromey] trafficking, and took a minimalist approach even when finally accepting their responsibilities. My hon. Friend She then talks about how her employer effectively held the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim her captive: Sheridan) is in the Chamber. He led on bringing the “She took my suitcase, kept my passport. Bank card and Gangmasters Licensing Authority into being but, sadly, National Insurance card and did not give my salary for 2 months the effectiveness of another organisation with an which was £250 per month only. My employer shouted non stop outstanding track record in combating modern-day slavery at me and pulled me out of the house. As I had nowhere to go, I is being watered down by the Government. Now, it is knocked and knocked the door but for three days and three the ILO convention. nights, my employer never opened the door. It was raining and winter, I was cold, hungry and scared in the dark.” When the convention was debated, one of the TUC The teacher of the two young children then advised the representatives was a woman called Marissa Begonia, young woman to escape from such a form of modern-day who is a member of Unite. She and the other worker slavery. In her words: representatives hoped that our Government would accept their responsibilities, as had, she said, virtually all the “I had nowhere to go so I went to the Park and slept there for other employer and governmental representatives. She nights. I was very scared but there’s nothing I could do, I was all alone in the dark, I thought of my mother and sisters. How I wish thought, “Surely, our Government must share in this they were just near me that at least I could hug them. The sky was consensus that there must be effective action internationally very dark, I could see the beasts coming out from the dark, they and nationally.” She was utterly dismayed that the were wild and heartless creature living in a beautiful Rose Garden”— country to which she is devoted failed to sign up. she was hallucinating— In conclusion, it is utterly extraordinary that our “they would come out and attack helpless life wandering around Government, led by our Prime Minister, who quite like me. I couldn’t see any hope but I prayed and prayed, this was rightly last week told China that it needed to accept its all I could do.” human rights responsibilities, did not sign up to the The young woman went to that admirable organisation, ILO convention, but China, America and virtually every Kalayaan. She was then supported—I am proud to say other Government in the world did. We are in a sorry this—by my former union, of which I was deputy minority of those failing to accept their responsibilities. general secretary; for many years, the old Transport and We are talking about desperate circumstances facing General Workers Union, now Unite, has championed good women, of whom I have met many over the years. the cause of domestic servants in this country. I remember a particular meeting, with 30 of them. They I will cite figures from a union survey of hundreds of were people with bright eyes and hope on their faces, domestic servants in London, whose length of service who had come here often to support their families or varies, but whose answers reveal a depressing pattern. villages back home. They thought that coming to and Fewer than half of them were issued with written terms working in this country would be a brave new world, and conditions of employment. Almost half received but they came here and were treated utterly shamefully. itemised payslips with their wages and, typically, they This Government and this House should be on the side worked long hours, aggregating well beneath the national of such people. What this Government have done is to minimum wage. In terms of treatment in the home in abrogate completely their moral responsibility. which they are working, fewer than a third received sick pay, with the majority forced to work when they were 10.16 am unwell, and a third of them were injured in that workplace, their employer’s home. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. On the Andrew Selous: The hon. Gentleman has read out an record, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Slough appalling list of employer abuses, but does he not agree (Fiona Mactaggart) for securing this important debate that they are already illegal? He went through a list, but on Government policy on the ILO convention on domestic we have legislation dealing with almost every issue that workers. he read out. What we need is greater enforcement and Many debates in this Chamber, such as on the issue vigilance to apply the law that we already have. we are discussing, might be lightly reported. Nevertheless, the Government decision on the ILO convention has Jack Dromey: The law is not properly enforced but significant consequences which will reverberate across nor are our Government giving leadership. What message the globe. It is significant because of what is being said does it send if we are in a sorry minority worldwide in to some of the most vulnerable people throughout the not signing up to the convention? I will come to the world as well as to potential traffickers. It leaves a stain point made by the hon. Gentleman in a moment but, if on Britain’s reputation as an advocate of basic human we look at the grounds cited by the Government for rights, casting a cloud over our democratic values. refusing to sign the convention, they include objections So important is the decision, that the Government on the basis of working time and health and safety, yet have been accused by many commentators of betraying the evidence is absolutely clear: most individuals concerned Britain’s 200-year history of anti-slavery and of isolating work unacceptably long hours for less than the minimum itself on the margins of the world stage. By abstaining wage and often in unsafe conditions, given the injuries from voting on the ILO convention on domestic workers, they sustain. Britain has lined itself up alongside countries where All of this has a depressing pattern. In relation to the workers’ rights are routinely infringed. Press reports convention, the Government have failed to give moral state that the Department for Business, Innovation and leadership—that is what is necessary—or to show Skills does not intend to ratify the convention “for determination to enforce the law. They also dragged the foreseeable future”, ruling out the application of the their heels over the European Union directive on sexual convention to British workers. 281WH Convention on Domestic Workers29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 282WH

Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) Andrew Selous: On the minimum wage, does the hon. (Lab): Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that Gentleman agree that we do not need to sign the ILO the Government’s position seems to be at odds with convention because we already have legislation on that? their international development policies, which are stated It is already illegal not to pay the minimum wage, and to be working towards improving the support for and rightly so. the working rights of marginalised workers? Britain is therefore put in a difficult position when trying to speak Grahame M. Morris: My hon. Friends have indicated on the world stage on such issues. that many domestic workers feel intimidated, and are unwilling to resort to traditional means. I do not accept Grahame M. Morris: My hon. Friend makes a good the hon. Gentleman’s assertion. Many of his arguments point well. I completely agree with her. were deployed against the UK Government signing up The decision to abstain has two damaging effects. to the convention on human trafficking, and in relation First, it will leave domestic workers in the UK, namely to basic health and safety. I do not accept that domestic nannies, cooks, cleaners and the like, vulnerable to the workers are already covered by effective legislation. risks prevalent for them. Secondly, it will undermine the UK’s standing and moral leadership on the international Jim Sheridan: Does my hon. Friend share my sadness stage. For countries whose citizens, including domestic at the suggestion of the hon. Member for South West workers, have far fewer legal protections, Britain has Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) that if the ILO convention abdicated its position as their champion. By neglecting were signed, old women would have their houses raided their duty in this matter, the UK Government have by inspectors to make sure that the working conditions tarnished their international reputation. People would and their houses are suitable for people to work in? be astonished to learn that workers who live with their That is ridiculous. employers in the UK and are treated as family are not covered by the working time or health and safety legislation, Grahame M. Morris: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s and are not entitled to the minimum wage. In fact, the intervention. The point made by the hon. Gentleman is ILO convention would have extended to those in domestic a scare tactic. I remind hon. Members that basic health employment only very basic labour rights that are available and safety regulations apply in the workplace, so it is to all workers—rights such as reasonable hours of work, nonsense to suggest that signing up to the ILO convention weekly rest of at least 24 consecutive hours, a limit on would somehow disadvantage the groups identified. in-kind payments, clear information on terms and conditions of employment, and some of the most basic It is appalling that the CBI voted against the convention, rights of workers, including freedom of association, but no more so than the fact that the British Government and the right to collective bargaining. Those are not abstained. The only way for the Government to restore extreme demands; they are moderate requirements. their credibility, not just here in the UK, but internationally, is to lay out their plan to ratify the convention for the ILO estimates of the number of domestic workers benefit of domestic workers in Britain. I am aware that worldwide put the minimum at 53 million with the the TUC has set up a campaign for ratification in likelihood of the true figure exceeding 100 million. alliance with domestic workers and several charities Domestic workers are often hidden behind closed doors, and non-governmental organisations. I hope that hon. so they are all too often unregistered, and that higher Members will take note of that, and that those who estimate may be conservative. The ILO’s Director-General, follow our proceedings will support it. Juan Somavia, said: I know that other hon. Members want to participate, “Bringing the domestic workers into the fold of our values is a strong move, for them and for all workers who aspire to decent but before finishing I want to touch on one of the work”. progressive moves that set the ball rolling on improving rights, particularly for migrant domestic workers. The Unfortunately, that modest move was too strong for our visa for domestic workers was introduced in 1998 for Government. the specific purpose of protecting migrant domestic The improvement on gender equality has also taken a workers from abuse and exploitation. It recognised their hit from the British Government’s neglect because, as vulnerable position in the under-regulated work my hon. Friends have said, many of those workers are environment, their isolation from co-workers, and their young women and girls. The ILO document, “Questions absolute dependency on their employer for finance, and Answers on the Convention Concerning Decent accommodation, immigration status, and information Work for Domestic Workers” states unequivocally: about their general rights. “The impact is tremendous. The mere fact of stating unambiguously Signing the convention would be a first step in putting that domestic work is work is a very important step toward the employment relationship, visa demands and working gender equality in the world of work, because domestic work choices in the hands of migrants to some degree. Migrant mainly employs women.” domestic workers could, for the first time, enforce their The Government’s position has been weak and rights. I hope that the Minister will not simply read out disingenuous. They have claimed that domestic workers the line on the Government’s absolutely unacceptable in this country are covered by protective laws anyway. position. Instead, I hope that he will reflect on what has The truth is that they are not treated like workers in any been said today, and that he will take steps to rectify the way at all. Many are poorly treated, as we have heard, damage that has been done to our international reputation and are paid nowhere near the minimum wage. Some and standing on workers’ rights, taking the cause of are effectively prisoners in the homes where they work, domestic workers backwards and aligning the British and rely on their work for their home, shelter, food and people with some of the most deplorable regimes, livelihood. which have been labelled an axis of evil—I do not 283WH Convention on Domestic Workers29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 284WH

[Grahame M. Morris] that vulnerable workers need an awareness of their employment rights and to know what to do if they know whether that is a fair assessment—and which would suspect that those rights are being breached. My right make many decent people in the United Kingdom hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South ashamed. East (Mr McFadden), then the Minister responsible for Will the Minister review the Government’s position, employment relations, set up and chaired a fair employment and dissociate themselves from the CBI on this issue? enforcement board. Campaigns were run to raise awareness Will he also lay out a plan for Britain to ratify and abide of employment rights and encourage the reporting of by this internationally backed convention? abuses. Some £6 million of extra funding was provided to supply information about workers’ rights. As the 10.27 am hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) suggested, that educational role is important Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. and we must get information about workers’ rights to Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) on the relevant people. That campaign included outreach securing the debate. She has a long track record of work using buses, but nevertheless, domestic workers vigorous campaigning on this and related issues. She are particularly difficult to reach, and both the carrot has explained the reason for the debate: to call the and the stick are important. We need education, but Government to account for their decision to abstain on also the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004, the temporary the vote a fortnight ago on the International Labour and agency workers directive, and now, the domestic Organisation’s convention on domestic workers. Detailed workers convention. preparation of the ILO’s landmark convention continued The ILO stated that for some time—indeed, since last year—with opportunities for countries to contribute to the work in progress in “this instrument sends a very strong political signal.” readiness for the vote on the convention at this year’s By not backing the convention, the Government also ILO international labour conference in Geneva some send a strong political message, but of a different order. two weeks ago on 16 June. I am disappointed with the decision, and hope that the Many people were taken aback to discover that although Minister will explain what he is doing to ensure that 173 Governments voted for the convention and only Britain protects its work force, no matter what jobs they one, the Swaziland Government, voted against, the UK do. was one of eight countries that abstained from voting Let us look at some of the detail in the convention. for the ILO’s convention on domestic workers. It is even Before the meeting in Geneva, the UK Government more surprising that given the recent media reports expressed concerns about three areas of the draft text: about abuses in other countries and inexcusable treatment first, the articles covering working time; secondly, the of domestic workers, the UK has, in abstaining, aligned potential application of health and safety regulations to itself with El Salvador, Malaysia, Panama, Singapore, private dwellings where domestic workers are employed; Thailand, the Czech Republic and Sudan. The USA and thirdly, those sections of the convention that call Government voted for the convention, and with the for greater regulation of private employment agencies. exception of the Czech Republic all EU countries voted Considerable preparation went into the drafting of for it. As we know from our previous discussions on the the convention, and if we look at how it is worded, we European working time directive, there is a plethora of see that its articles refer repeatedly to bringing the law different opt-out arrangements in many EU countries, concerning domestic workers into line with existing but that has not prevented them from signing up. national laws for the rest of the work force. For example, Only last week, The Times reported on the article 10 states: “abusing conditions endured by domestic workers...and their “Each Member shall take measures towards ensuring…normal powerlessness”. hours of work, overtime compensation, periods of daily and I believe that the Government have, by remaining silent, weekly rest and paid annual leave,” condoned that. We have heard horror stories today, and which should not be less favourable than those provided it is now clear that our Government are sending out for workers generally in accordance with national laws completely the wrong message to millions of domestic and regulations. In other words, as would be expected workers around the world. When trying to help and for an agreement that is prepared for endorsement by protect them, they are often among some of the hardest countries across the globe that have different laws and to reach, particularly if they have recently arrived from traditions, the convention allows countries to refer back abroad, live in, and have little knowledge of where to to their own national laws and regulations. Legislation find help. Since 1998, following legislation by the then already in place for workers generally can be extended Labour Government, the UK has offered the overseas to domestic workers. domestic worker visa, which provides workers with the possibility of independence from their employers. Will Mr Davey: Will the hon. Lady explain why the previous the Minister tell the Chamber what plans the Government Government never extended the working time directive have for the future of the overseas domestic worker to domestic workers? visa, and whether there is any truth in the suggestion that they are looking to scrap it? I remind the Minister Nia Griffith: We could have an entire debate on the that the visa was introduced in 1998 with cross-party working time directive, but I am not going to get too support, and that scrapping it would be a backwards distracted by that. I remind the Minister that we had step. an interesting discussion the other day in a European In 2008, the Labour Government set up the vulnerable Committee, and it became apparent that most of the worker enforcement forum, recognising that there was 27 countries in the EU operate various types of opt-out still much to be done to tackle hidden exploitation, and from the working time directive. Our original opt-out 285WH Convention on Domestic Workers29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 286WH has been copied in many different ways, but each country Mr Davey: Is it therefore the Labour party’s position has its own ideas. It is recognised that we need a full and that the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 should frank discussion about what happens next; the picture be extended to households where there are domestic across the EU has been a little confused and when we workers? look at our domestic law, we need to ask what is appropriate, including for domestic workers. It is clearly Nia Griffith: It is appropriate to endorse what is in not appropriate for people to work seven days a week, the convention. The convention seeks to sort the issue 24 hours day. We need to look at best practice and out and find what is suitable. ensure that we follow that type of model. Fiona Mactaggart: The Health and Safety at Work Jim Sheridan: My hon. Friend should not be so etc Act 1974 does apply to domestic workers. The only modest. The Leader of the Opposition has said clearly exception relates to criminal legal sanctions. We know that mistakes were made by the previous Government that in practice the Act is already enforced differently that we need to rectify. Although we recognise that, it is for small employers and large employers. Therefore, in not an excuse for the current Government to bring in response to the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire legislation. (Andrew Selous), it would be perfectly proper for the Act to be imposed more lightly in a domestic workplace Nia Griffith: Absolutely, particularly on issues that with only one worker than it would be in a big workplace have taken years of discussion to get to our current with dangerous machinery and many workers. That is position. already the case in Britain. My view is that the Government Let us return to how the articles in the convention are are trumpeting an excuse. worded. They state that we should try to make national laws that apply to the general work force apply to Nia Griffith: I thank my hon. Friend for her excellent domestic workers. That is not easy because domestic explanation. Let us move on to recommendation 20, workers are often the hardest to reach. Nevertheless, we which states: need to educate people and use the stick as well as the carrot. “Members should consider additional measures to ensure the effective protection of migrant domestic workers’ rights, such The Government have said that they as…providing for a system of visits to households in which “do not consider it appropriate or practical to extend criminal, migrant domestic workers will be employed”. health and safety laws, including inspections, to private households The emphasis in the recommendation is on looking into employing domestic workers. It would be difficult, for instance, to hold elderly individuals employing carers to the same standards and trying to find out the best way to deal with the as large companies.” matter. What has the Minister done, for example, to Let me remind the Minister of two parts of the convention: find out what happens in Finland or Ireland? What has article 13 and the relevant recommendation. Article 13 he done to find out what happens in other countries, so states that each member should take appropriate action, that we can learn from those models, look into the best ways of dealing with the matter—best practice—and “with due regard for the specific characteristics of domestic achieve improvements in standards? work,”. It is clear that the convention views work undertaken by The Government’s actions so far send a stark message corporations and that carried out in people’s homes as to the world. By not supporting the convention, the different, and does not demand that they be treated Government are sending a bleak message to domestic similarly. workers not only in the UK, but throughout the world— perhaps 100 million people, who in some countries Mr Davey: The hon. Lady argues that the convention constitute up to 12% of the work force. The UK still would not require health and safety legislation to be commands considerable respect in the world, but extended to homes where there are domestic workers. Is at a time when the convention has been supported by that her position? It is certainly not the legal advice we 173 countries, including the US and almost all of the have received. EU bloc, the Government seem to be suggesting that they will not stand up for the idea of extending to Nia Griffith: It is certainly not my position. Article 13 domestic workers the same basic rights as those enjoyed states that appropriate measures should be taken, by workers throughout the economy. That is sending a “with due regard for the specific characteristics of domestic very gloomy message to the world. work,”. I would like to ask the Minister a few questions We all know the benefits of health and safety provisions. before I finish. Will he explain exactly why the UK For example, when students come to do work experience chose to abstain from voting for the convention? It with me I receive a form from the school, asking about would have formed the basis for the UK to improve fire exits and smoke alarms. Those are sensible and protection for domestic workers in the UK and would routine questions that every office should be able to have shown leadership to the many countries in the answer appropriately. Exactly the same should be the world that still respect the UK and whose Governments case with domestic workers. We would not want people may be trying to ratify the convention in very challenging to work in circumstances that are not safe. We now have circumstances. higher standards than we used to have—thank goodness; Media reports quoted the Minister’s Department as those standards have considerably reduced the number saying that the Government would not be ratifying the of accidents at work. The convention states that although convention to bind the UK by its rules “for the foreseeable what is appropriate in a home may be different from future” and so they felt that it would be wrong to vote what is appropriate in a corporation, that does not for it at all, but why do they not intend to ratify it for the mean that protection should not exist. foreseeable future? Is it just a low priority? Is it that no 287WH Convention on Domestic Workers29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 288WH

[Nia Griffith] subject. She spent quite a lot of time talking about trafficking, and I understand her campaigning role on one in the Government wants to work out how existing that and her record, but we do want to talk about the UK law can be extended to cover domestic workers? text of the convention, so I thank her for the opportunity That is what the convention is about—extending existing to explain why the Government abstained on the vote UK law. After all the times that hon. Members on both on the convention while strongly supporting its principles. sides of the House have raised the related issue of the A key factor in understanding our position is recognition EU directive on human trafficking, are the Government of how the convention would or would not have changed still not aware of how much concern there is about this our domestic laws for domestic workers. In the UK, we issue? already have a legal framework of basic employment Will the Minister explain why a spokesperson for his rights and social protections for employees and workers, Department is quoted in the press as saying that the including domestic workers. So, like other workers, Government “strongly support” the principles enshrined most domestic workers benefit from the national minimum in the convention and that the UK wage, statutory sick pay, paid annual leave and protection “already provides comprehensive employment and social protections from discrimination and unfair dismissal, as well as to domestic workers” other protections. My hon. Friend the Member for when there is clearly plenty of evidence to show that, in South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) was completely reality, domestic workers do not always enjoy such right about that: the key question is enforcement. rights and benefits? What is the real reason behind the Government’s Fiona Mactaggart: The Minister says that most domestic decision? Is it a complete phobia of anything that might workers benefit from paid annual leave. look like a regulation, and the hollow-sounding promise on regulation? This year, it has been a case not of one Andrew Selous: They should. in, one out, but of 53 in and three out. Are the Government succumbing to the constant demands from their Back Benchers, the hon. Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) Fiona Mactaggart: I am sure that they should. I want and for Christchurch (Mr Chope), who regularly propose to know how the Minister knows that most actually do, scrapping the minimum wage and heap ridicule on because in my experience, it is very likely that most do measures to protect workers from exploitation? I sincerely not. I do not know how he knows that most do. hope not. Now that the UK has not voted for the convention, Mr Davey: This is a question of the law. The law says what do the Government intend to do to improve the that those workers are entitled. Signing the convention rights of domestic workers in the UK? Having abstained would have made no difference to that. The question in the ILO vote, how can the UK Government play a that my hon. Friend the Member for South West positive role in encouraging other countries to ratify the Bedfordshire raised was about enforcement. The hon. convention? Can the Minister confirm whether it is true Lady should understand that. It is about enforcement. that in the negotiations, the UK also asked to be officially disassociated from an agreed EU position on encouraging Nia Griffith: If the issue is about enforcement and we countries to consider adopting voluntary codes to cover already have existing legislation, what is the problem incidents of abuse of domestic workers by their diplomats with signing up to the convention? Of course we need to while posted abroad? I ask that in the light of a report improve our enforcement. We need to do that in many this week in The Guardian, which states: areas. However, if the legislation is sufficient, in the “The US state department has expressed concern about the Minister’s view, to meet the convention, what is the abuse of domestic staff working in foreign embassies in London, difficulty? saying repeated allegations of mistreatment have not been addressed by the government.” That is a very serious accusation indeed. Mr Davey: Of course I will come to that point as it is central to my speech, but let me say for the record that I If the legislation and the reality are already better am undertaking a review of enforcement and compliance than what is required by the convention, what is the rights in the UK to try to improve enforcement in the problem with signing up to it? If we are saying that our UK. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for South existing laws are too good to be extended to domestic West Bedfordshire would welcome that. workers, I find that disgraceful. If we are not yet in a position to meet all the demands of the convention, Domestic workers have the same access as other surely it would be an aspiration to work towards and we workers to mechanisms for enforcing their rights. The should look towards ratifying it. Will the Minister national minimum wage and statutory sick pay, for explain why the Government have chosen to put us in example, are enforced by Her Majesty’s Revenue and an extremely embarrassing position in the world by not Customs, and those and other rights can also be enforced signing up, sending out a very negative message to by individual workers, if necessary by taking a case to workers both in this country and abroad? an employment tribunal. If the domestic worker is an agency worker, they have 10.44 am additional protections under the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Those regulations prohibit agencies from charging work- Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I congratulate finding fees; require agencies to pay workers for all the the hon. Member for Slough South East (Fiona hours worked; and provide other protections. They are Mactaggart) on securing a debate on this important enforced by my Department’s employment agency standards 289WH Convention on Domestic Workers29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 290WH inspectorate, which responds to complaints and, there has been a death or serious injury. As I said in my additionally, carries out a programme of proactive, speech, perhaps the Minister can give us an example of risk-based inspection. where criminal prosecution has taken place in a small The pay and work rights helpline, set up by the workplace. previous Government, provides an accessible single point of contact for all workers—and, indeed, employers—seeking Mr Davey: I have to tell the hon. Lady that domestic advice about or wanting to report abuses. It covers basic workers are excluded from part I of the Act, which employment rights, such as the national minimum wage, covers health, safety and welfare in connection with working hour limits and the special regulations applying work and the control of things such as dangerous to agency workers. A translation service is provided in substances, and which includes some general duties. more than 100 languages for those who need it. There are protections under civil law, and I will come to As required by the convention, our child employment them in a second, but I am afraid that signing the regulations are robust. Children under the minimum convention would have meant extending the Act to school leaving age can only do light work, and there are private households employing domestic workers. strict rules on when and for how many hours children Anyone employing a domestic worker such as a cleaner, can work. a home help, a child minder, a carer for an elderly or For egregious offences at the serious, criminal end of disabled person, a gardener, a nanny or an au pair—it is the spectrum, the UK has recently introduced a new a long list—would have been covered by a range of offence of holding someone in slavery or servitude or health and safety regulations, and, in particular, by the requiring a person to perform forced or compulsory 1974 Act. Hon. Members might ask what is wrong with labour. The offence builds on existing statute and will in that, but they should consider the implications. The Act some circumstances make prosecutions easier. would place specific duties on such employers to ensure Signing the convention would have made no difference the health, safety and welfare of domestic workers in so to the measures that we have in the UK. It would have far as that was reasonably practicable, and individual made no difference to stopping slavery or human trafficking. householders would have to familiarise themselves with Why? Because we already, rightly, have some of the the law. According to the Act, they would need to strongest laws in this area. There is no question, then, consider the information, training, instruction and about the Government’s commitment to the principles supervision that their helper needed. They would need behind the convention. In almost all respects, our laws to assess the helper’s tasks and any risks from equipment already match the requirements set out in the convention. and substances to which the helper might be exposed. The householder would also have to carry out a wide I come now to the question posed by the hon. Member range of risk assessments, which would be different for for Llanelli (Nia Griffith): if we already comply with each home. almost all of the convention, why did we abstain? The main sticking point for us is the convention’s approach The sanctions for non-compliance would be criminal. to health and safety in private households. The wording Householders failing to comply with the law would be does not provide sufficient flexibility to meet the UK’s subject to criminal penalties providing for unlimited long-established approach. Nor does it match our principles fines and imprisonment for up to two years. of proportionate regulation based on risk. Indeed, because it is inflexible and disproportionate, it could, if implemented, Nia Griffith: Does the Minister not think that it have damaged the interests of vulnerable people. I am would be highly desirable for the workplace to be made sure that the hon. Member for Slough South East safe? Does he really want people to be exposed to all would not want that. sorts of dangers, particularly when a large number of accidents happen in the home? What is his objection to Fiona Mactaggart: I am not Slough South East; I am strengthening the health and safety situation of domestic all of Slough. workers? Mr Davey: I apologise to the hon. Lady. Mr Davey: I will come to the evidence for not applying Let me explain the position in detail. Article 13 of the the provisions in a second, but if I may, I will continue convention requires each member to take my remarks, because I want to answer the hon. Lady’s “in accordance with national laws, regulations and practice, effective questions. measures, with due regard for the specific characteristics of domestic work, to ensure the occupational safety and health of domestic The Act would place a serious regulatory burden on workers.” individuals and create a fear of criminal liabilities if For the UK, that requirement to take effective measures things go wrong. That speaks to the point made by the would, in practice, mean extending the Health and hon. Member for Slough, who says that there are not Safety at Work, etc. Act 1974 to private households many prosecutions of small and medium-sized enterprises employing domestic workers. I ask colleagues to consider and that lots of advice is provided before such things what that would entail. happen. We could, of course, contest that, but what she fails to recognise is the fear of prosecutions, so let us Fiona Mactaggart: As I understand it, the Act does look at the implications of that. apply to private domestic workers, with the exception of There would be new and significant disincentives to section 51, which provides a specific exclusion in relation employing domestic workers in a private arrangement. to criminal prosecution. It is not usual for people in a Individuals may cease to employ the additional help small workplace to go to criminal prosecution without they need, which could have serious social consequences. previously having been advised by inspectors, unless Elderly or disabled individuals, for example, could be 291WH Convention on Domestic Workers29 JUNE 2011 Convention on Domestic Workers 292WH

[Mr Davey] the least. Despite what the hon. Member for Llanelli said, households are low risk in health and safety terms. deterred by the increased burden they would face from If there is any increased vulnerability for domestic employing carers in their homes, potentially forcing workers, it arises not from health and safety concerns, them into residential care. but from issues such as their treatment by their employers, I assume that hon. Members, like me, visit constituents which is already covered in other legislation. who are unable to come to their advice surgeries. I have Of course, we could have voted for the convention two advice surgeries a week, but I also go to the homes and then not ratified it. of disabled and elderly people who are not able to come to see me. I have gone into many constituents’ homes, Fiona Mactaggart: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves and my understanding of the health and safety legislation health and safety, will he answer the first question I is that those homes would have to be significantly asked him? I asked for a specific example of a small improved and changed. I do not believe that the people employer, none of the employees of which had died and I visit would welcome inspections of their homes, which which was not suspected of putting customers at risk, would be very intrusive. but which had been prosecuted.

Jim Sheridan: The Minister is a decent man, and I do Mr Davey: I do not have such an example at my not believe that he is reading out the script he has been fingertips. I will write to the hon. Lady. However, she given to scare people, but does he honestly agree with fails to address the fear that introducing these provisions the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew would engender, which my hon. Friend the Member for Selous) that old women’s houses will be raided to ensure South West Bedfordshire addressed. they comply with health and safety provisions? Is he If we had voted for the convention and then not seriously suggesting that will happen? ratified it, what would that have said about the UK? We have heard a lot about our reputation, but other ILO Mr Davey: I am not suggesting that, because health members undermine the ILO by not going ahead and and safety inspectors do not raid people’s homes. ratifying conventions they have voted for, which is no good for the ILO or labour rights. In the negotiations, I ask colleagues to reflect carefully on the legal we tried to come up with a convention that we could implications of the position they are taking. The convention have voted for and ratified—that is what we want. We would undermine the Government’s policy to support worked very hard on that and we supported the independent living, which includes offering personal development of the convention because we see it as budgets in the form of direct payments to people receiving important. We rightly meet our legal obligations and do state-funded care. In line with Government policy, social not run away from them. care is increasingly being delivered in the recipient’s own home, and more than 150,000 people are currently That is a conventional approach to the ILO, and it is working as social care personal assistants in private one the previous Government took. Let me explain that homes. That policy was begun by the previous Government, by giving some examples. The previous Government and we support it. abstained in an ILO vote on the maternity protection convention in 2000. I think they would have supported Andrew Selous: I am glad that my hon. Friend has the convention, but it no doubt had some burdensome mentioned the personalisation agenda. Does he agree implications in domestic law. The previous Government that many of our vulnerable constituents who employ also abstained in the 2006 vote on the ILO’s people are quite worried about their obligations as recommendations on employment relationships. That employers anyway? They are not evil people, and they was probably not because they were against the principles, just want their care, but they are quite worried about but because they realised that the provisions would have the implications of being an employer in their own an impact on UK legislation. In other words, we are homes. taking exactly the same approach as the previous Government. Mr Davey: Indeed. That is why previous Governments, During the debate, it has been suggested that we are understandably, did not choose to extend domestic law letting the rest of the world down and sending a signal in the way proposed in the convention; they had the that we do not care about these issues, which is one of choice, but they did not do that. the more outrageous suggestions I have heard, given the records of the previous Government and this Government. This Government are leading the world in taking practical Nia Griffith: Is the Minister not aware of the many action to combat human trafficking and to help exploited local authorities and private care companies that provide workers around the globe. Members should consider care? Their arrangements could be replicated in the the Department for International Development’s funding independent care packages. for the Salvation Army anti-child trafficking project in Malawi or its new programme aimed at reducing human Mr Davey: Of course, those would be covered if we trafficking in south Asia, which focuses on helping went down this route. women and girl domestic workers and garment sector What would be the benefit of extending health and workers. Members should also consider our support for safety laws to individuals and increasing the scope of other Governments’ anti-trafficking efforts, such as the our criminal regime? Why would we want to give health Bangladesh police reform project, which established a and safety inspectors a new right to visit millions of specialised police unit to combat human trafficking. homes? Why would we want to pass quite an intrusive Above all, Members should consider the increase in the law, which the previous Government baulked at? The overseas aid budget, which comes when other budgets evidence of the need for such a change is weak, to say at home are being cut. 293WH Convention on Domestic Workers 29 JUNE 2011 294WH

I therefore totally reject the suggestion that we are Kirkstall Forge Railway Station not showing leadership in the fight against some of the awful crimes we have heard about. We are showing leadership here, and we showed leadership on the 11 am convention. We regret that we were unable to vote for it, because others were unable to give member states more Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): I am pleased to flexibility in a sensible and measured way. have secured this debate, which means an awful lot to my constituency. The prospects for Kirkstall Forge are hugely important to local residents, who have been waiting a long time for them to advance. My predecessor worked hard on the issue, and I too have devoted a lot of time to it as the Member of Parliament for Leeds West. It would be reassuring to hear some answers about the future of Kirkstall Forge today. If you will indulge me slightly, Mr Howarth, I want to explain some of the history of the site, which gives an important context to the issues I want to raise. The site lies between the A65 and the river Aire, one of the major routes in and out of Leeds. The A65 runs along the valley floor, past the remains of the Cistercian abbey. Hon. Members may have seen the production “Frankenstein’s Wedding” that took place there, on the BBC recently. It is one of the best preserved abbeys in the country, and as well as playing host to fictional weddings it is the home of an annual festival, which will take place next week, live concerts, plays and, recently, a farmers market. The monks of the abbey commenced work on the site of the forge more than 800 years ago, and until its closure at the turn of the century it could lay claim to being the longest operating forge in the country. The monks powered their forge through a mill race diverted from the river, which remains today. More recently the forge was turned to heavy industrial use, seizing the opportunities of first rail and then road transport to manufacture axles for trains and motor vehicles. The forge employed an army of workers, who were housed in Hawksworth wood, just up the hill from the site. Its economic success depended on a stop on a railway line at the forge site. Now that has all gone. The high wall that once hid a hive of activity is now a barrier between the community and derelict space. Since the forge closed it has been purchased by a developer, laying the groundwork for a major project that could mean the forge being brought back into the heart of the Kirkstall community. The plans for Kirskstall Forge are exciting. They offer the prospect of more than 2,000 jobs and more than 1,000 new homes—regeneration for an area much in need of investment. Crucially, however, they also offer improved sustainable transport into Leeds city centre in the east and Bradford to the west, because a new station is integral to the plans. That is why this debate falls within the remit of the Department for Transport. High-speed rail and the southern entrance to Leeds city station are welcome developments in transport infrastructure in our city. I know that they will bring Leeds significant benefits. However, the project I am outlining, incorporating improvements to stations and the development of two stations—at Kirkstall Forge and at Apperley Bridge—is part of the Leeds rail growth package. When decisions were made about investment in major transport projects in October, there were three categories: supported projects, unsupported projects and a rather more ambiguous development pool in the middle. Kirkstall Forge fell into that uncertain hinterland, 295WH Kirkstall Forge Railway Station29 JUNE 2011 Kirkstall Forge Railway Station 296WH

[Rachel Reeves] look to the city centre for work, when it exists. The take-up of free school meals at the local primary school where 22 schemes must find extra money if they are to runs at 60% —among the highest in the country. Does be successful. Those schemes have sat in limbo since the Minister recognise that the scheme could bring then. multi-million pound investment to an area much in The Secretary of State for Transport told the House need of regeneration, and will he take that into account that schemes in the development pool would be when considering the funding allocation for the scheme? “challenged…to consider the scope of the scheme, its cost, lower-cost Housing is also a big issue. The proposed development alternatives and their ability to contribute more locally.”—[Official includes living space for 2,600 people. It would make Report, 26 October 2010; Vol. 517, c. 179.] use of brownfield land that is currently lying empty to The Secretary of State also referred to a further 34 schemes develop houses that would not impinge on Leeds’s that would be considered as candidates for the development green belt, or demand that residents use cars to get to or pool, but which had not quite made it that far. The from work. From my constituency surgeries I know Government have invited improved funding offers, and about the huge demand in that part of Leeds for social indicated that final decisions about support for schemes housing, but also for housing to buy and rent in the would be made by the end of 2011. I would appreciate it private sector. The pressure on developments just a if the Minister would today confirm the timetable for couple of miles away from my constituency in the green making those decisions, so that we can have some belt is also well known to the hon. Member for Pudsey clarity about the process, and tell us the number of (Stuart Andrew) and other MPs in the area. schemes in the development pool at the moment, their When I have raised the issue in the past, I have been combined value and the money that is likely to be told that local support is important. In a letter to me, available for them. the Minister of State said: People in Leeds West want to know what is happening “We are happy to support the re-opening of new railway stations where the relevant Passenger Transport Executive believes to the forge site, and developers, councillors and local that this is the best way to meet local transport needs and where transport officials need to start putting plans in place. the scheme demonstrates value for money and is affordable.” I can confirm, as I have done in the past, the support of Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): I congratulate the Metro, the West Yorkshire passenger transport executive. hon. Lady on securing this important debate. Does she Leeds city council, local councillors and MPs of all agree that the benefits are far greater than just for the parties across Leeds support the plans, as do the chamber site itself? The massive developments in my constituency, of commerce and local businesses. Crucially, the Minister in Aireborough and Pudsey, could also benefit enormously. also knows that the development has strong support in the local community: I have received a significant number Rachel Reeves: The hon. Gentleman is correct. He of letters and e-mails in support of the project, including has been a big supporter of the development, and I from residents’ associations and community groups. I appreciate that. The benefits of the Kirkstall Forge site, know that many residents will be watching proceedings including the jobs and housing that it will bring, will today or following them later in Hansard to see where have an effect across Leeds but also, I believe, as far we stand. Will the Minister recognise those factors in away as Bradford. the decision-making process? First and foremost among the scheme’s benefits are I accept that developments need to be affordable; and its transport benefits. The forge site used to depend on a cost savings have been made to the scheme. Metro has rail halt to distribute axles around the country. Now, found approximately 20% in savings through changes to the development that is planned depends on a rapid link the scheme, and it has also been in discussion with the into Leeds city centre, and to Bradford. The construction developers to increase their contribution to the station. of a station at that point would offer journeys of five At programme entry, the developer had pledged £4 million minutes into Leeds city centre, a vast improvement on towards the overall £23 million cost of the Leeds rail the prospects when travelling by bus or car on the busy growth package. That in itself is a considerable investment A65, which can take as long as 30 minutes, as I know on top of the wider investment in the Kirkstall Forge well. The new station would be linked to both Kirkstall site. The funding requested from the Department for and Bramley, and would encourage more sustainable Transport will have fallen by more than 30% since the transport for both those communities. Does the Minister development pool was initiated, and the station will agree that we should be encouraging a shift away from now cost the Department between £12.3 million and cars, particularly in busy urban areas where traffic jams £12.9 million. The local contribution will be over are a common problem, with big environmental, business £5.5 million, or more than 25% of the total cost of the and economic costs? project, reflecting an additional £2.6 million investment, As well as offering sustainable, efficient transport, subject to agreement. the Kirkstall Forge development promises major Will the Minister outline the extent of private opportunities for Kirkstall. It would lever in £350 million contributions to other schemes in the development pool, of investment in the area, and support 2,400 jobs, in in comparison with contributions from the private sector construction and then on site permanently in offices, and locally for the Leeds rail growth package and the shops and leisure venues. That is hugely important to Kirkstall Forge development? Does he believe that this an area that has for a long time missed out. Average extensive contribution reflects the developer’s commitment earnings in my constituency are £18,000—two thirds of to the scheme, as well as the commitment of Leeds city the national average—and unemployment stands council and the passenger transport executive? substantially above the national average. The Hawksworth Kirkstall Forge can again play an active part in the Wood estate, initially built to house workers on the life of the local community, as it has done in the past. forge site, now has no major local employer, and residents The Minister’s Department holds the key to unlocking 297WH Kirkstall Forge Railway Station29 JUNE 2011 Kirkstall Forge Railway Station 298WH that potential, and the railway station is integral to the In parallel, the Government are developing a wider development. Without the station, the economic benefits rail strategy to ensure an affordable, sustainable, safe of new business space and housing will be much less and high-quality railway that will deliver a better deal clear, as the site will be poorly connected to the urban for taxpayers and for fare payers. That strategy will hubs of Leeds and Bradford. Moreover, the impact of clearly set out the roles of Government, both central the development on the local community will be significantly and local, of the train operators and of Network Rail in enhanced if local people can benefit from improved securing the future of the railway. transport links, and if roads are not congested because The Government have ambitious plans for investment of the new homes—and new commuters. in rail infrastructure and rolling stock. That is possible The original Kirkstall forge powered jobs and growth only because the Government have taken the tough in Leeds and Leeds West, and the new development decisions necessary to protect future investment in the could play a huge role in the economic future of the UK’s rail industry. Over the next four years, we will area, encouraging more sustainable transport, as well as provide £14 billion to Network Rail to support capital sustainable housing and sustainable jobs. It has major maintenance and infrastructure investment. We are funding financial backing, it has widespread local support and it and delivering the Thameslink programme, virtually fits the Government’s criteria for rail development. Will doubling the number of north-south trains running the Minister clarify the future of Kirkstall Forge railway through central London at peak times. About 600 new station, and its place in the Leeds rail growth package? carriages will be provided for the Crossrail project, and up to 1,200 new carriages will be procured for Thameslink. A further 650 carriages will have been delivered to the 11.11 am network by March 2014. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport On 1 March, the Secretary of State announced that (Norman Baker): I welcome the chance to engage twice Scotland, Wales and northern and south-west England in one week with the hon. Member for Leeds West are to get a fleet of new trains, and more reliable rail (Rachel Reeves), and I congratulate her on securing this links to London. That will create thousands of jobs, debate. It is on a subject that is of great interest to her boost the economy and improve services for passengers. existing constituents and to those who may contemplate He gave the go-ahead for the £4.5 billion intercity moving to the Kirkstall Forge area in the years to come, express programme and for the plans to electrify the as well as to my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey Great Western main line between Cardiff, Bristol and (Stuart Andrew) and others in the area. Didcot. I assure the hon. Lady and her constituents that the Subject to consultation, the Government will proceed coalition Government have rail at the heart of their with plans for a national high-speed rail network, spending transport strategy.We recognise that railways can contribute over £750 million during the period of the spending fundamentally to the key overarching objectives of the review. When complete, that will dramatically reduce Department for Transport, which are to foster economic journey times and increase capacity on routes between growth and reduce the carbon emissions of the transport Britain’s major population centres; it will bring Birmingham sector. The railways can also help to reduce our fiscal within 49 minutes of London by rail, and Manchester deficit, if the money is appropriately deployed. Given and Leeds—the latter will be of particular interest to the significant pressure on public spending, we are the hon. Lady—to within about 80 minutes. Connections determined to maximise the value of that expenditure, to existing lines will also be included, allowing direct as people would expect. high-speed services to our major towns and cities. The Investing in our rail network will help to cater for the capacity released on existing lines would allow an expansion rapidly growing number of people making rail journeys of commuter, regional and freight services. in all parts of the country. Our rail network is essential in allowing millions of people to get to and from work Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. I have been every day, and in moving people around the country for listening carefully to the Minister, and I realise that he is business and for leisure or pleasure. Between 1994 and setting out the context of Government expenditure on 2009, the number of miles travelled by rail passengers transport. However, at some point soon he needs to in Britain every year nearly doubled from 18 billion to speak on the specific subject of the debate, which is 32 billion, and that growth shows no sign of slowing. It Kirkstall Forge railway station. has been resistant to the problems in the economy of the last three or four years. Norman Baker: Indeed, Mr Howarth. However, as Transport did well in the comprehensive spending the hon. Lady finished five minutes early, I have taken review, and over the next four years we will invest over the opportunity to put the matter into the general £30 billion in transport projects across Britain, with context of our rail policy. £18 billion being committed to the railways. There is Suffice it to say that we are driving out inefficiencies significant pressure on public spending, so we are on the railways and reducing costs. However, we are determined to maximise the value of our expenditure. making what I believe is the biggest investment in rail, The Government welcome the publication of Sir Roy including in the Leeds area, that we have seen since McNulty’s independent study on rail value for money. Victorian times. That should give the hon. Lady some The study found that although performance and safety comfort. There is a hard-nosed economic and environmental have improved markedly over the last decade, our railways case for investing in rail. I turn now to Kirkstall Forge. are 40% more expensive per passenger mile than those A new station at Kirkstall Forge has been a high of our European competitors. The Government are priority for Metro, the West Yorkshire passenger transport considering the recommendations that are directed to executive, for many years, and I know that considerable them, and will deliver their response later this year. progress has been made towards achieving that objective. 299WH Kirkstall Forge Railway Station29 JUNE 2011 Kirkstall Forge Railway Station 300WH

[Norman Baker] a final bid in September to the Department, which we will consider alongside the others we expect to receive, The coalition Government are committed to localism, including bids for maintenance for the Leeds inner ring and that determines our approach to local rail. We road and the New Generation Transport trolley bus realise that local rail networks have to adapt in order to scheme, and will make an announcement in December serve new and expanding communities, which is why we 2011. I hope that that helps to confirm the timetable welcome PTEs taking the initiative. PTEs, working with which the hon. Lady asked about. local enterprise partnerships, where they exist, are best Although I cannot indicate how successful the Leeds placed to identify the needs of local areas, and to growth package bid might be, because it is a competitive identify and secure funding for new lines, new train process and obviously the bids are not in yet, we will services or stations, if they believe that that is the best look favourably on schemes for which promoters have way to meet local transport needs and the wider objectives reduced their funding requests to the Department. I can of economic growth, housing growth and carbon reduction. confirm that, and I note the comments that the hon. The development at Kirkstall Forge is a large one, Lady made about increased private contributions. I am and in the spirit of localism it is entirely right that aware that a developer contribution has been secured Metro should take the lead in developing solutions to towards Kirkstall Forge station and that Metro is scaling the transport issues that the development will give rise down the size of the bid by removing some additional to. Metro has a good record in identifying sustainable car parking schemes at stations elsewhere. transport solutions. For example, we welcome Metro’s In its bid, Metro will also have to demonstrate that and Leeds city council’s commitment to more sustainable the scheme provides value for money and that there is solutions for the city region, as set out in the local no ongoing cost to the Department arising from the transport plan 3, “My Journey”. We have backed their stations’ introduction. That is an important point, as judgment by providing £12 million towards the cost of our policy is that new stations should cover their ongoing the Leeds station southern entrance, which will do costs from newly generated fare income. However, I much to improve access to new major housing and understand that Metro is confident that over time that commercial developments to the south of the city centre. will be achieved. The proposed Kirkstall Forge station will complement It is proposed that Kirkstall Forge and Apperley the A65 Kirkstall road quality bus corridor, to which Bridge stations will be served by inserting calls in the the Department will be making a contribution of services that run between Bradford Forster Square and £19.8 million, and that is on track to open in 2012. It is Leeds stations, which have spare capacity to accommodate a busy and congested corridor that is heavily used by the new users from the stations. It is for Metro to commuters, so these two schemes will help to provide a discuss with Northern train operating company and sustainable alternative to car commuting. Network Rail how those calls are to be accommodated The hon. Lady asked specifically about the shift from within the timetable, given that the additional stops will the car. The Department recognises, first, that we have increase end-to-end journey times by about four minutes to use transport to drive economic growth. Secondly, in each direction. The good news is that we have recently however, we have a responsibility to use transport in a agreed to fund the provision of additional carriages on way that reduces carbon emissions. We are certainly the electrified routes to the north-west of Leeds, so keen to secure a reduction in carbon emissions, and that Metro and Northern are now in a better position to could mean a modal shift from car to rail, particularly determine whether further rolling stock will be required until the road transport network has been decarbonised, to enable the calls to be made. which is some way off. I have tried to cover the points that the hon. Lady Metro is seeking funding from the Department’s budget raised. She explicitly asked whether I would take into for local authority major schemes. The outcome of the account wider economic factors in determining spending review is testament to our commitment to applications—yes, we will absolutely do that. The Secretary such schemes. We recognise that well-designed proposals of State recently published a new transport business can make a big contribution to economic growth. case appraisal system, which was announced to Parliament We plan to spend more on local authority major through a written ministerial statement. The hon. Lady schemes in this spending review period than the average may want to get a copy of that. She will be able to see spend over the past 10 years. Nevertheless, that cannot the factors we now take into account to determine fund all the schemes from the previous regional funding transport projects. Broadly speaking, the changes made allocations process that promoters wished to deliver, to the valuation process have increased the value of and we will need to rationalise. Put simply, we inherited carbon, so, on the face of it, they marginally benefit a completely unrealistic pipeline of schemes, and we public transport schemes and marginally disbenefit road have had to rationalise those as best we can. For the schemes. future, we want to move away from a top-down approach The hon. Lady asked about private contributions to to determining local transport needs, working towards other schemes in the development pool. That information a more devolved system for funding local authority is simply not available yet, because we do not know major schemes, with local enterprise partnerships taking what the final bids from the other schemes will be. The on an important role. However, for this spending review, deadline for all bids is September, and obviously we will we need to rationalise the previous Government’s not be able to make a judgment until they all come in. I programme, so we have invited final bids from the reiterate that private contributions are important. We promoters of 45 schemes from the previous programme. are looking for buy-in, not only from the local transport The Leeds rail growth package is one such scheme, and authority, but from the wider community. Private we believe it will now consist of new stations for both contributions are therefore important, not simply to Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge. Metro will submit reduce the call upon the taxpayer, but to demonstrate 301WH Kirkstall Forge Railway Station29 JUNE 2011 Kirkstall Forge Railway Station 302WH commitment to the particular project for which an far. That has meant that the number of bids that have application is being made. In all the bids that come been able to be approved so far has been greater than if forward, we will be looking for details of private that discipline had not been applied. By driving down contributions, the support of the local community, and costs, we have been able to approve more schemes than evidence that there have been sensible attempts to reduce would otherwise have been the case, so we have been costs wherever possible. able to make more progress than many dared hope The hon. Lady appears to be confident that Metro given the unrealistic pipeline we inherited. That approach has addressed those issues, and if it has, that will count is not simply good value for money for the taxpayer, but in its bid’s favour, as and when it comes in. helpful in spreading the money as widely as possible. In conclusion, I am grateful to the hon. Lady for Rachel Reeves: I welcome the answers the Minister raising the issue. I know that there is genuine concern in has given. her constituency and others that the proposed station To return to the wider economic benefits of the goes ahead without delay. development, a point that I tried to get across was about deprivation in that part of Leeds West, particularly Rachel Reeves: I have some more questions before the on the Hawksworth Wood estate—I mentioned the Minister concludes. What is the total pot of money proportion of free school meals—and in Bramley, which available for the 45 schemes that remain in the development has one of the highest proportions of young people not pool? I recognise that due to savings and increased in education, employment or training. As well as the private sector contributions costs may have fallen since aggregate externalities and economic benefits that would the projects went into the development pool, but how come from the development, will the Department look much were they worth then? What is the difference at the importance of economic regeneration and how between the amount of money in the pool and how the returns in areas such as Kirkstall or Bramley might much the schemes were bidding for? Does he have that benefit some of the most deprived communities when information? compared with developments in areas where there are already good jobs and low levels of unemployment? Norman Baker: I am not sure that I can give that Norman Baker: As a Government, we recognise the detailed information now, but I shall write to the need to support areas where there is economic hon. Lady. The amount of money available is about deprivation. If we applied a simple economic test to £700 million—that is a rough figure for her to consider. everything, there would frankly be a lot of investment I will drop her a line to give her the specific information in south-east England, because it has a very good rate she asked about. of return, and not a lot elsewhere. We do not do that. The debate has been useful. I look forward to receiving We try to ensure that we take into account a wide range a final bid from Metro in September. It will be properly of factors and ensure a modal balance of transport and objectively analysed according to the criteria that investment, as well as a regional balance. The hon. Metro has been notified about, which I have referred to Lady is right to put those points on the record. They today. Decisions will be made known to MPs and have been noted for when the Department considers others in December. the matter, as and when the bid comes in from Metro. The Secretary of State’s approach to developing a package of bids to be approved has been successful in 11.27 am driving down costs on the bids that have been agreed so Sitting suspended. 303WH 29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 304WH

Coal-fired Power Stations world demand for coal-fired generation will increase by 70% in the period up to 2030. China is currently constructing the equivalent of two 500 MW coal-fired [MR GEORGE HOWARTH in the Chair] power stations a week, a capacity comparable to the 2.30 pm entire UK power grid each year. Those figures are quite pertinent and put in perspective where the UK fits into Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I am pleased to a global generation market. About a third of UK have secured this debate on what I consider one of the electricity is generated from coal but it currently emits most important issues the country faces at the moment. more CO2 per unit of electricity than all other forms of It is also a pleasure to serve for the first time under your generation. That is something we need to address. chairmanship, Mr Howarth. The UK has installed electricity capacity of 77 GW. I have a number of concerns that require a great deal By 2016, it is expected to face a shortfall of 32 GW, as of attention. Principally, our nation’s ability to ensure older coal, nuclear and oil plant is closed down, as energy security is very important. Will we be able to demand rises. That is crucial and key to the debate keep the lights on in the future? Many customers and today. Government policy is currently to introduce a constituents are keen to ensure that the Government are floor price for carbon. Many of the coal-fired generators focused on that question. How are we to keep the lights recognise that that is going to put enormous pressure to on, without becoming completely reliant on our European be economic on their business. In the medium to short neighbours? Although we have a European market and term, it will not be possible to secure nuclear power many nearby nations are able to supply electricity, I am stations that deliver the energy that we require. Generators concerned about how secure that supply is, and how that produce power via coal are working their units very amiable their taxpayers will be about giving British hard to secure as much return on their investment as people electricity when they may run short at the same possible. There will be a period when our ability to time. generate power will be short, and the Government need Throughout history, this nation has been served well to look long and hard at how we will close that gap. by coal-fired power stations. Coal as an energy source to generate electricity is flexible, reliable and dependable. As my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) However, there are a number of pressures, such as the suggested, coal is currently plentiful. It is relatively requirement to reduce our carbon footprint, that are cheap, flexible and able to respond quickly. We are not calling that into question. prone to outages, and coal is not vulnerable to geopolitical risk. Coal generates about 40% of the world’s electricity, Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I congratulate with about 10% each for gas and nuclear. Coal burned my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) by major electricity generators, which account for 80% of on securing this important debate. Does he agree that it total coal use, was up 3% in 2005. Coal burned in UK is not just an issue of energy security? There is also an power stations was 23% higher in the third quarter of issue in relation to facilities such as Daw Mill colliery in 2006 than in the same period in 2005. Coal demand is my constituency, where nearly 700 people work. In rising. That demonstrates not only how reliant on coal addition to issues around energy security, should we not we are in this country, but the pertinent fact that use is be concerned to ensure that we still use the coal that is increasing. under our feet in Warwickshire, so that we are not UK pits and mines are pretty efficient. We have heard exporting carbon emissions abroad and are supporting of Daw Mill. Thoresby colliery in my constituency is UK jobs? very efficient in its coal production. I am delighted it Mr Spencer: I will come to that point later. I should has now had permission to explore another seam, which put on record that some of my constituents in will secure the future of that colliery for at least the next Nottinghamshire travel to Warwickshire to work at 10 to 12 years. Daw Mill. That we have so much coal under our feet is Given current global energy consumption, it is estimated pertinent, as is the fact that so many constituents rely that there are enough recoverable coal reserves to provide on the coal industry for employment. the entire planet with all its energy for the next 600 years, I will start by outlining the current usage and how we at the current rate of usage. Britain is estimated to have generate power. Coal produces more than 35% of the 7 gigatonnes of coal left. In power stations performing UK’s base load of electricity during an average year. In carbon capture and storage, we could deliver a sustainable recent winters, when the weather has been cold, that and reliable approach to energy production. base load lifted to 50% of the supply generated by coal. That emphasises not only how dependent we are on Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): I thank my hon. coal, but how flexible it is, responding to the requirements Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) for of the British public. On a cold Christmas day when securing the debate. He is right about the importance of everyone is trying to cook their turkey at the same time, energy security, especially over the next 10 to 15 years. we need a great deal of flexibility in the supply chain to Does he agree that we need a balanced energy market be able to respond. I want to touch later on the fact and security of supply, in which, as he says, coal will that, unfortunately, the wind does not blow harder on play a key role? He touched on carbon capture, which Christmas day than on any other day of the year. We will be the key way potentially to keep many of our need that flexibility to respond to demand. coal-fired power stations burning and supplying energy Fossil fuels as a whole account for 80% of our energy over the short term of 10 to 15 years. supply: coal being 25%, gas 21% and petroleum 34%. In addition, nuclear provides 6.5%; hydro 2.2%; and biomass Mr Spencer: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. waste 11%. Only 0.4% of global energy demand is met That point is fundamental to the debate: coal is recognised by geothermal, solar and wind. Estimates suggest that as being flexible, but we need to embrace the technology 305WH Coal-fired Power Stations29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 306WH of carbon capture and storage. That is something that I him in lobbying Government to ensure that we fill that want to explore in more detail later. It is interesting that gap. I hope that the Minister will reassure us at some my hon. Friend touches on carbon capture and storage, point that we can fill it. because those are new clean technologies that have been CCS is a means of mitigating the contribution of proven to work. Powerfuel’s new development at Hatfield, fossil fuel emissions to global warming. The process is Yorkshire, is backed by Friends of the Earth. It is a based on capturing CO2 from large point sources, for good example of how new clean coal plant can be example power stations, and storing it in such a way developed and can work in practice. that it does not enter the atmosphere. CCS can also be I turn to the environmental side of the argument. used to describe the “scrubbing” of CO2 from ambient Despite legally binding targets to reduce greenhouse air as a geo-engineering technique. Although CO2 has gas emissions, in 2008 91.5% of UK energy supply was been injected into geological formations for various met by the use of carbon-intensive fossil fuels. We need purposes, the long-term storage of CO2 is a relatively to address that figure seriously if we are to, first, meet new concept. The first commercial example of its use our energy demands and, secondly, reduce this nation’s was at Weyburn in 2000. carbon footprint. I want to explore the three groups into which CCS EDF Energy has said that, between now and 2016, can be split: post-combustion; pre-combustion; and 13 GW of coal and oil baseload plant will close. Other oxyfuel. ageing coal plants may also close by 2016 and 7.5 GW worth of nuclear closures are scheduled by 2015. EDF Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I congratulate Energy reached its figure of a 32 GW shortfall by my hon. Friend on securing this debate, not least because factoring in the expected closures, the expected growth I live opposite Drax power station, which is the most in demand for electricity and the expected growth in efficient, cleanest and biggest coal-fired power station line with the renewables obligation. That figure of a in the country. Is he aware of the consultation that is 32 GW shortfall will be a terrifying one unless we find going on in my own village of Airmyn today, between ways of plugging the gap that do not necessarily involve 2pm and 7pm, which relates to the national grid’s laying cables across the channel so that we become proposal for a CCS pipeline that would serve the steelworks dependent on our near neighbours. at Scunthorpe as well as the power stations across north-west and south Yorkshire? As I say, that consultation If the UK coal-fired power stations were replaced is going on at the moment. That pipeline is an exciting over time with clean coal plants, the UK would stand at prospect and it offers the possibility of extending the the head of an energy revolution, we would be secure in life of some of our power stations. our energy supply and we would also be comfortably within the environmental emissions targets. I hope that Mr Spencer: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. the Government can find a way to support investment In fact, I have the Drax report here in front of me and I in clean coal technology so that we can achieve some of know that he is working very actively to ensure that his those goals. constituents are well represented in that consultation. Carbon dioxide capture and storage—CCS—is the Drax is a very good example of what can be achieved. critical enabling technology that would reduce CO2 The work that it has done in blending biomass with coal emissions significantly while also allowing coal to meet to improve its carbon footprint is an example of how we the world’s pressing energy needs. It is important to can improve things with the technology that exists recognise that this is a global issue. While we are considering today. Also, working with other industries, such as the UK energy generation, it would be foolish not to observe steel industry, is quite an exciting prospect and I welcome what is happening on the rest of planet Earth. I have that happening; in fact, I recognise that that good work already mentioned China and the number of power is ongoing. plants that it is producing. If we can find, develop and Flue gas desulphurisation is not a new technology. It enhance CCS technology, we could position ourselves has been used for some time. Ratcliffe-on-Soar, the well in the world. largest power station near my own constituency, has introduced a great deal of new technology to capture the sulphur emitted from the power unit. FGD is simple, Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): I congratulate actually. It basically works by mixing limestone with the hon. Gentleman on raising this very important water, which is then sprayed into the power station issue. Given the timetable before us—the site contract is chimneys through which the flue gases pass after the to be signed by Scottish Power by 2011, but we will not coal is burned. The sulphur in the flue gas reacts chemically see any real production until later—is he as concerned with the injected spray and forms calcium sulphate, as I am that there will be a gap in the energy market and with only a small proportion of the sulphur being we will not be able to fulfil the energy requirements of ejected into the atmosphere. The resultant slurry is then this country? How will we overcome that problem if we pumped away, dried and made into gypsum, which is do not move the energy agenda forward? beneficial to the power station and can be used to generate income for it. FGD equipment also allows Mr Spencer: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that coal-fired plants to meet the requirements of the EU intervention and that is exactly the point—there is this large combustion plant directive. gap and we must find a way to fill it. A Government of The second group of CCS technologies is integrated whatever colour have to address this issue quickly and gasification combined cycle, which is a pre-combustion grab it with both hands, because we cannot afford to be technology. IGCC is a near-zero-emissions clean coal in a position where that gap increases and we cannot solution for the UK. It would significantly reduce CO2 keep the power on. I therefore commit myself to supporting emissions as well as providing pressurised gas for injection 307WH Coal-fired Power Stations29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 308WH

[Mr Spencer] products and deposited in a place where it will remain. The CO2 emissions from a clean coal plant will be into North sea oilfields, thereby enhancing the recovery reduced to virtually zero if the plant has been designed of oil reserves, which is known as enhanced oil recovery. to store the carbon. The CO2 can then be disposed of Powerfuel is now constructing one of Britain’s first in, for example, the emptying fields of the North sea, IGCC clean coal power stations in Yorkshire, again where it can consequently extend the life of those oil using British coal from an adjacent colliery. I will try to fields by applying pressure to an old and difficult-to-extract put the process into simple language. It sometimes reserve, thereby prolonging production. I shall try to becomes very difficult to extract crude oil from wells put that into layman’s terms. The gas is pumped into the and there is a technique whereby the CO2 can be mixed hole where the oil is coming from, which assists in to reduce the viscosity of the oil, allowing the oil to be removing some of the oil, and stores the CO2 back removed from the wells more easily. underground, where the carbon was for millions of Super-critical power plant is a type of clean coal years. It is a three-step process, of capturing the CO2 technology whereby it is possible to retrofit this technology from the power plant, transporting it—as my hon. to the power stations that we already have. The benefits Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) of operating a super-critical power plant over a conventional said—to another place via a pipeline, and finally storing plant are clear. Conventional boilers have an operating or using it. efficiency of about 30%, which means only 30% of the The British Geological Survey estimates that the energy in the coal is converted into electricity with the potential carbon dioxide storage in the UK sector of rest being lost as heat. Super-critical boilers have efficiency the North sea is 775 gigatonnes. That is a considerable levels of around 42% to 46%, so more energy is directed amount, given that worldwide CO2 output is 8 gigatonnes to turning the turbines to generate electricity and therefore annually, and it means that in the North sea alone there less greenhouse gas is produced per kilowatt-hour. could be almost a century’s worth of CO2 storage for Improving the efficiency of boilers used in coal-fired the whole world. That is a fantastic statistic, which power stations not only reduces CO2 emissions, because proves that we have the storage available as long as we less coal is needed to generate the heat energy that turns can embrace it and find a way, via the technology, to the steam turbines, but it results in higher generator make use of it. efficiencies in the provision of the electricity. The boilers Carbon capture and storage in a coal-fired plant are available commercially and can be retrofitted to would cost just over £20 per tonne of CO2, while the existing coal-fired plants, which means no major retraining figure for a gas-fired plant is about £30 a tonne. It could of staff, faster deployment and reduced capital costs be argued that that is because a coal plant produces with greater efficiency. It seems like a win-win situation more, but coal is certainly cheaper per tonne than gas to me. for CO2 emitted. Using CO2 for enhanced oil recovery Doosan Babcock Energy has stated that Britain could can generate revenue that offsets the other costs of cut the cost of reducing greenhouse gases by £3 billion CCS. The cost of storing CO2 in aquifers is close to if it fitted such clean technology to its ageing power £l per tonne, and the cost of storing it in oil and gas stations. Lobbying goes on for Government to introduce field plants ranges from £1 to £20 per tonne. Therefore, a form of incentive for power generators—one similar as well as being fairly reasonable, this method could to the renewables obligation certificates—to invest in generate income if we can get it right and make it work. clean coal technology. Creating such an incentive seems Depleted oil and gas fields are the first sites to be the right thing to do and I hope that this debate will considered for storage capacity because they are known assist the Government in some of their thinking, and to be equipped with infrastructure such as pipelines and perhaps we can consider supporting this technology. platforms, and are almost ready to run now. Doosan Babcock Energy says that applying this The other area that I really want to explore, and technology to existing coal-fired power stations would which I know my predecessor as MP for Sherwood, be the equivalent of erecting 7,000 to 10,000 wind Paddy Tipping, and his predecessor Andy Stewart explored, turbines. Members in Westminster Hall today who have is underground coal gasification. This is a method of had the pleasure of a local application for a wind converting unworked coal into a combustible gas, which turbine will be relieved that we could reduce the number can be used for industrial heating, power generation of those applications, one of which I currently have in and the manufacture of hydrogen, synthetic gas or my constituency. Typical construction costs for current diesel fuel. The basic UCG process involves drilling two coal-fired power station designs are in the region of wells into the coal, one for the injection of oxidants and £700,000 to £900,000 per megawatt. More advanced another—some distance away—for bringing the product integrated gasification combined gas cycle plants cost gas to the surface. I acknowledge that the process between £900,000 and £1.3 million per megawatt, although involves a number of challenges, not least of which is lower capital costs of £750,000 to £900,000 per megawatt whether once the process has been started it can be are predicted as technology moves forward and we controlled, and there are also the impacts on subsidence become better at fitting it. The 2002 energy review by above surface level, depending on what happens to the the performance and innovation unit put the costs of coal below ground. Nevertheless, we should consider coal-fired power stations in the 3p to 3.5p per kilowatt-hour using UCG for reserves under the sea. Cost estimates of range by 2020. That would make coal competitive with UCG clean gas stand at £2.50 a gigajoule, whereas the nuclear power, if the costs of decommissioning nuclear current price of national gas is £6 a gigajoule. power stations were included. Turning to the economic merits, clean coal is competitive, Briefly, I want to explore carbon abatement capture. with an estimated generating cost of between 2p and The idea of carbon capture is simple and powerful. The 3.5p per kilowatt-hour. Wind power, for example, costs CO2 must be segregated from the fossil fuel combustion between 3.7p and 5.5p per kilowatt-hour. The Government 309WH Coal-fired Power Stations29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 310WH seem fairly committed at this moment in time to wind we can sell it to the world, continue to use coal and at power, but when the costs are added up and the subsidies the same time cut the amount of CO2 being released stripped out it is not as competitive as some of the other into the atmosphere. available technology. Clean coal is also more acceptable Owing to their substantial carbon emissions, coal-fired to constituents than erecting large wind turbines in the power stations are currently considered environmentally vicinity of their homes. unacceptable. That is simply because we are looking at the technology of the 1960s and 1970s, rather than at Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I what is available now and might be available in future. am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman as he Coal-fired power gets a bit of a poor press, but some of makes his powerful case for coal. Is he not overplaying, what is said about it is not true. however, the role of wind power? He indicated earlier The UK has the opportunity to be at the forefront of that, when wind is needed most, in the cold weather developing clean coal technology. That would not only when there are anticyclones, it is not there, so we have to be beneficial to the UK, but be a very effective way of have the coal-fired capacity, and if the wind blows too helping developing countries, notably China and India, much, we again have to have that capacity. Wind power to take advantage of their own coal reserves in a way is irrelevant to the security of energy supply in this that is considered environmentally acceptable. We find country. ourselves in a situation in which the Department for International Development is funding the World Bank, Mr Spencer: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct, which in turn is funding electricity generation in other and I will cite some statistics later that support his view. parts of the world, and those countries are spending Offshore wind has a role to play in assisting electricity that cash on coal-fired power stations, which are not as generation but we do require that base load. I do not environmentally friendly as they could be. If we can want to overemphasise this, but when the World cup find a way to make the technology work and embrace it, final half-time whistle goes or when everyone wants to we could sell it to other parts of the world or donate it cook their turkey on Christmas day, we have to have the as part of our aid programme to the more challenged capacity to lift that generation. However, the Government parts of the world, which would benefit the planet and currently do not have the power to control the wind and those more challenged countries as well. can rely only on what is available. It is vital that we are at the forefront of development. That could lead to a whole new industry. Selling the Andrew Percy: I have issues with onshore wind, but I technology and building it for the world would generate never miss an opportunity to sell the Humber for its enormous amounts of cash and jobs for the UK. If we offshore wind capacity, particularly in front of the are not at the forefront of its development, other countries Minister. Is it not a bit of a false argument that we are will jump ahead of us and we will lose the opportunity. in favour of either one technology or the other? What This great nation of ours has always been at the cutting my hon. Friend and the Government are saying is that edge of technology, and certainly of engineering, and we want a broad mix. A technology that is not as far we need to maintain that tradition if we possibly can. advanced as perhaps it should be is tidal, to which I The process of coal gasification can capture 90% of understand the Government have just committed some CO2 emissions for storage and can also produce a money. It is not about being on one side of the argument; synthetic gas, known as “syngas”, which is 99.5% pure it is about being on all sides and having a balanced hydrogen. The beauty of that fuel is that, once fired energy mix. through a conventional gas turbine, the only emission is water vapour. Although cleaning up the existing plants Mr Spencer: It is true that we need to take a balanced is welcome, it will not have the impact that those who view and ensure that we explore the new technologies. I want to reduce our CO2 emissions significantly require, think that tidal and wave power are great, and if they nor will it capture any CO2 for alternative income work they will contribute a small amount to this nation’s generation. Coal gasification is the only process that energy security. The important thing to note though is changes one form of energy—coal—into another flexible that it will be a small amount, because those technologies energy source—hydrogen—but without a clear Government do not have a large enough share of the market. The energy policy, IGCC technology will not happen. To be number of areas where we could secure a tidal scheme—the viable, the new IGCC plants require the same allocation Severn estuary is one example—is small, and there are of CO2 allowances as existing coal plants, but at present no opportunities to generate enormous amounts of they receive the allowances for a CCGT-fired—combined electricity via such schemes. I acknowledge that we need cycle gas turbine—power station. a mixed portfolio, but that works only if there is something So far, generating electricity from coal has failed the there to pick up the base load. The crux of my argument environmental test because of its carbon emissions, but is that the only methods that can be used to pick up the clean coal offers a number of strategic advantages, base load are nuclear power and coal-fired power stations, including the ability to ensure sustainable and competitively and we are not in a position to build nuclear power priced electricity and to offset security issues and the stations fast enough to plug the inevitable gap. cost of importing from volatile countries in the middle On the merits of clean coal technology for the east and Russia, which is key. In the past, when I environment, the biggest long-term problem for coal is challenged Ministers who said that they were more than its carbon dioxide level. Approximately 90% of the CO2 comfortable with our arrangements with overseas suppliers, produced by a coal-fired power station could be captured they pointed me to the fact that we have imported a vast with CCS, and CCS could help to make up to 20% of amount of our food over the past 50 years and we have the global cuts in emissions that are needed by 2050. certainly never been too concerned about that. The Therefore, if we can find the technology that will work, arrangement has worked very well, but it is important 311WH Coal-fired Power Stations29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 312WH

[Mr Spencer] power demand. That rarely occurs, but it does happen on occasion. Last year, Danish carbon emissions rose, to recognise that that has been during a period in which because the Danish grid fell back on older fossil fuel food production has been on an enormous scale and generation to plug the gap left by underperforming food has been plentiful. The situation may change the wind farms. Danish power stations used 50% more coal second we reach a position where we are short of food. than in 2005 to cover wind’s failings and wind turbines Russia decided last year not to export a single grain generated 21.7% of electricity, which is down from of wheat. That had an enormous impact on global 29.4% in 2005. To put it in simple terms, when the wind wheat prices overnight. I can see us in a situation in does not blow, the turbines do not move and the power which a very similar thing happens to energy. We all is not there. As the Danes have to have a stopgap base remember images on the news of French lamb farmers load, they use coal. Ironically, during that period, the blockading their ports and stopping imports of British use of fossil fuels rose, which demonstrates the frustrations lamb. Such images stick with me. Can we really depend with the system that we are pursuing. on our neighbours when we are up against the wall? Will they look after their own taxpayers and can they Graham Stringer: I agree with the hon. Gentleman look after British taxpayers at the same time? That completely, but the situation is actually worse in Denmark. makes me very nervous. Such situations make me think The Danes have stopped investing in wind, because it is that we should ensure that we are on a secure footing too expensive and destabilises the grid. When the wind and that we have enough energy in the UK to supply is blowing, they are effectively subsidising energy in ourselves. Germany and surrounding countries. They have made a terrible mistake and it would be a great pity if this Mr David Hamilton: The hon. Gentleman does not country carried on subsidising wind farms—quite frankly, need to turn to food for an example, because only a few it would be insane given the economic state we are in. years ago the Russians turned the gas off to the country next to them, and prices spiked right after. If that Mr Spencer: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that happened over a long time and more countries did it, it intervention. The irony of the situation is that the would really harm our energy requirements. German energy the Danish are reliant on is often produced with brown Czech coal, which is worse in terms of Mr Spencer: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that carbon emissions than UK coal. It does not make much intervention because he makes a pertinent point. The sense at all. other areas with which we are dealing, for example I am conscious that I am taking up quite a lot of those in the middle east, are not as politically stable as time, and I know that other Members wish to speak, so they could be. We can easily foresee circumstances in I will try to conclude as quickly as possible. If we look which our ability to source energy from those parts of at the international competition, it is clear that we need the world is compromised by political upheavals similar to step up and ensure that we keep up with, if not stay to those happening now. That could leave us exposed. I in front of, the competition in terms of producing clean hope that we can find a way of securing our energy. We coal technology. In 2009, the Australian Government must meet rising electricity demand and smooth the less produced a White Paper entitled “Securing Australia’s predictable output from renewables. We need to foster Energy Future”, which backed the use of clean coal and promote a high-growth, low-carbon economy. technology with coal from indigenous reserves, and UK I shall now address the point raised by the hon. climate change economist Sir Nicholas Stern recently Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) told an Australian audience: on wind power and explain why I feel that wind power is “I think Australia will be at the forefront of that technology”. not adequate to support our needs. Fitting clean coal In the US, coal production is at full capacity. In 2005, technology to the UK’s 16 power plants would cost an 951 million tonnes were produced from indigenous estimated £6 billion. In comparison, 2,000 wind turbines reserves for energy supplies and for industrial use in will be put up in the UK over the next six years at a cost steel and associated industries. President Obama said: of £9 billion. The Government’s renewable energy policy is currently over-dependent on wind energy.That imbalance “We need to act now and make the US a leader in putting in place the incentives that ensure developing countries also embrace is largely the result of the renewables obligation, which clean coal.” provides no clear boundary as regards the merits of various renewable technologies, so the cheapest option The EU is also adopting a positive attitude towards in terms of start-up costs—wind power—has been pursued, clean coal technology, with President Jose Manuel Barroso irrespective of its failures on grounds of unreliability stressing to an audience in February 2007 the need for and secure energy. “an acceleration of the commercial use of clean coal”. The dangers of over-relying on wind power were The UK must demonstrate a firm commitment to demonstrated in Ireland on 4 December 2003, when the clean coal technology if it wishes to influence the behaviour electricity regulator had to take emergency measures to of other nations, such as China and India, where rising reduce the amount of wind power on the Irish electric C02 emissions from fossil fuels will otherwise dwarf any grid following major concerns about the security and savings made in the UK. By 2020, China’s consumption stability of the power system. Simply because the wind of electricity is forecast to increase sixfold and to be blew too hard, too much power was being generated, so 30 times that of the UK. pretty quick action had to be taken to resolve it. What is the Government’s role? Ensuring our energy In contrast, Demark has the most intense concentration security currently appears to involve laying cables under of wind generation in Europe. At peak output, Danish the channel, and I am concerned about how secure such wind farms can account for nearly 64% of Danish peak an arrangement is. I can see how it could work in the 313WH Coal-fired Power Stations29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 314WH short to medium term, when energy is in plentiful must come from a few sources. We cannot rely on supply, but, as I said, I do not think French taxpayers Russia for fuel, and we should not rely on the middle would like their country to move to a three-day week to east, because the supplies can be stopped at any time. keep the lights on in southern England. As I said, Every week in Parliament, we debate the middle east, comparisons are made with the food supply, and it is and things there could blow up at any time; our energy difficult to understand why we are exposing ourselves to supplies could be cut off at any time, which would mean the issues involved, when we could do better. another price spike. The Government have said that we will continue China is the engine house of the world. Although it public sector investment in carbon capture and storage was going through a difficult time, it is coming back. technology for four coal-fired power stations, but the That means that we will have to compete with it when it criticism levelled at us is that we have thus far completed starts to make gains in terms of power. When it buys the only the first of those four. We really need to speed up power, we will have to pay astronomical prices, because and get on with things. it will determine what is pulled in. It is building power In conclusion, I hope the Minister can lay some of stations and opening up collieries because that provides my concerns to rest. We must keep the lights on; it is quick and easy access to energy supplies. fundamental that we keep the electricity coming to this If we are not careful, our leading position on carbon nation of ours. All the issues that we fall out about in capture and development will be quickly lost, and we this place will become insignificant if there is no power. will be overtaken. America is putting a lot of money Wind turbines may be of assistance, and offshore wind into carbon capture development, and China is doing certainly has a role to play, albeit a small one, but I am the same. Indeed, it already has a project that is supported concerned about how dependable such turbines are. by Germany and others. We are at the tail end. Fundamentally, the base load must come from nuclear I was part of the previous Government, and I know or coal, but the nuclear power stations we need to build the Minister is supportive of coal. The issue, however, is will not be on stream in time. We are behind the game, the timing as we move forward on carbon capture and we need to act now to catch up and secure Britain’s projects. The contract at Longannet has to be signed energy supply, if we are to keep the economy running by the end of the year, but the project will not take off and the lights on. until some years later. We also need to get the other three projects up and running. If we want to be at 3.13 pm the forefront, we must be able to develop our strategy Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): I did not quickly. I make a plea to the Minister to sign the intend to speak in the debate, because I did not think contracts by September and to bring the other three I would be here, but another meeting was cancelled. I projects online as soon as possible for the sake of have nothing much in the way of technical details to everyone in this country. add to the 40-odd minute speech by the hon. Member We can have all the arguments we want about clean for Sherwood (Mr Spencer), so I will not try. coal technology, sulphur content and everything else, Many people would assume that I naturally support but if the lights go out, not a single person out there will coal because I am an ex-miner, but there is much more thank us; indeed, my constituents will drum my door to it than that. I was in the pits for 20 years, although down. The bottom line is that we are here to protect and there is not a single pit left in Scotland. We now deal support the people we represent, and we are here to with open-cast mining in Scotland, and there are still support industry and this country. The only way we will one or two pits in England and southern Wales. do that is by ensuring that our energy policy utilises If we drive the market through carbon capture, that everything we have. This is, therefore, an important will give deep mining in the UK long-term security. We debate, and I hope that the Minister takes it on board. do not want to talk about carbon capture and then Before I sit down, I have one other thing to ask the import all the coal that feeds the power stations. There Minister. When he has his discussions with the Scottish is therefore an issue about creating employment Government, will he ensure that they invest the same opportunities in the UK and beginning to develop a amount as us in the Longannet complex? If that fateful strategy for developing our coalfields, which have millions day ever happens and Scotland goes independent—I of tonnes of coal. We are fortunate that we have more hope it never does—I would not like this country to be coal reserves than anywhere else in Europe. That is an putting money into Longannet, when the Scottish important issue, which we must address. Government are not putting a penny in. I would therefore My view is quite specific. Four or five years ago, I like to hear what the Minister has to say about the changed my opinion about something that had been Scottish Government putting money into that important close to my heart all my life. Until then, I had been project. anti-nuclear all my life, but I began to realise that this country’s security of supply is far more important than Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con) rose— any view that I might or might not have about nuclear energy.When it comes to this country’s energy requirements, Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. Before everything should be on the table. That is an important I call the hon. Lady, I should point out that I intend to issue, which we have to address. This is not a matter of call the first of the Front-Bench spokespeople at 3.30 pm, one thing or the other. and I ask the hon. Lady to bear that in mind. I accept the point about wind power and all the problems with it, and I agree with many of the points 3.18 pm made by the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): I will be brief, Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer). Mr Howarth. First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the However, we need a big mixture, although the base load Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) on introducing 315WH Coal-fired Power Stations29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 316WH

[Jackie Doyle-Price] The power station will begin generating and contributing to the grid from December. I encourage the Minister to this extremely important debate. A compelling case for visit the plant. It is exciting and groundbreaking, and coal has been made by hon. Members on both sides of gives an opportunity of a new lease of life to some the Chamber, and the debate is all the better for that. coal-fired power stations. RWE npower deserves to be I fully endorse my hon. Friend’s comment that energy congratulated on having the courage to make the investment security is hugely important and that coal must play a and see whether it would work. It has proved the major role in it. That said, I want to make a few points process, which means that other power stations will find about the other opportunities for coal-fired power stations it much less risky. through reference to the Tilbury power station in my I endorse the comments made by hon. Members on constituency. both sides of the House about coal, which must play a Tilbury has been running for 50 years on its current role in this country’s future energy supplies. I reiterate site. Until March this year, it was a coal-fired power that we should do everything we can to encourage station, but thanks to investment by RWE npower, it is investment in the carbon capture technologies that my now becoming the world’s largest biomass-fired power hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood so lucidly station. That gives the opportunity of a new lease of life articulated. for some of our older coal-fired power stations, which will have to be decommissioned because of the EU 3.23 pm directives. I therefore beg the indulgence of hon. Members today, while I give the story of Tilbury. Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I At its peak, Tilbury employed 750 people. Today it am grateful for the opportunity to speak, Mr Howarth, employs 250, in highly skilled jobs. It was facing closure and am aware of the time; I did not intend to speak. I in 2014, which would have left a big hole in the economy congratulate the hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) of Tilbury, which is quite a small town. The power on bringing this important matter before the House. station generates more than 1,000 MW—enough to I have two or three things to say. The policy of the power 1 million homes. It has never breached its Government—this was true of the previous Government environmental licence, in 50 years of operation. Looking as well—is based on two illusions. One is that what this at the debate from the point of view of climate change country does, both in relation to carbon dioxide, and and environmentalism, it is worth bearing that in mind, industrially, will affect anyone else in the world. It will particularly as the general manager tells me that when not, and the hon. Member for Sherwood developed that sulphur emissions in the locality have been measured at argument with his statistics, and illustrated it effectively. dangerous levels it is not because of the power station The second illusion is that there is a shortage of fossil but, generally, when there is traffic congestion on the fuels in the world. If we read what environmentalists A13 and the M25. That raises the question whether we say and look at what is happening, we can see that the are looking at the right things, in our rush away from real problem will be a huge surplus of fossil fuels in the coal. world in the next 300 or 400 years, not just because of RWE npower, which runs the station, originally intended the figures on coal and oil, but because of the new to construct a new cleaner coal power station at Tilbury source of shale gas that is being developed, which has and its plans were far advanced, but it had to reconsider already dropped the price of fuel in north America by the decision in November 2009. That was because of up to 50%. the cost, in the economic climate at the time, but also—and That is the background against which this country this reinforces the point made by my hon. Friend the must consider energy policy. There must be a hierarchy Member for Sherwood—because of the unclear regulatory of priorities in thinking about energy policy, and security status of investment in cleaner coal. It is important to of energy supply must be at the top. At the moment we lay the foundations to establish a clear regulatory picture are staring at the prospect of a huge problem in three or so that companies are prepared to make the investment. four years’ time. The Minister shakes his head, and he Considerable amounts of money are involved. may or may not be in his post in three or four years’ Having decided not to go ahead with that plan, the time, but European obligations at the moment put an company was still wedded to the site at Tilbury—it is a absolute limit on the amount of coal that can be burnt very responsible company and wanted to maintain the in our power stations. If we get another cold winter and relationship. It decided to investigate the burning of they burn twice as much coal as they intended, those wood pellets instead of coal. There was a lot of scratching power stations will have to be switched off. There will be of heads, but the management decided to have courage a gap before we can build new nuclear power stations. and invest money in trying it out. It was a great success. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian In March this year the power station burned coal for (Mr Hamilton), I spent most of my life opposed to the final time. I lament that, but what is happening now nuclear power stations, but in the world we now live in, is very exciting. The company is converting the existing the facts, and my opinions, have changed. station to burn wood pellets for the remainder of the We must put the facts together. It will take shale gas hours that will take it to 2014; it also intends to invest in some time to come on. Because of the dominance of creating a new biomass generator beside it. The new Russia in the gas market, that is insecure. We know arrangement is not quite as efficient at generation as what is happening in the Arab world at the moment and coal. In comparison to the previous figure of 1,000 MW, we could be in for a real problem. Rather than putting the wood pellet scheme reaches 750 MW,but it is still an vast subsidy into wind farms, which are likely to destabilise efficient system and it will contribute massively to the the national grid as they are put in, and to industrialise national grid—much more than the wind turbines that the countryside—not just because of the wind farms we have been hearing about, in relation to investment. themselves, but because of the power lines, which will 317WH Coal-fired Power Stations29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 318WH have to be taken at huge cost from the wind farms to the rapid decarbonisation of our electricity supply and a grid—we should be bringing the nuclear power programme diversification of the energy sector, moving us from forward and considering how to develop shale gas in a reliance on fossil fuels and unabated combustion, to this country. We have some of our own deposits in the an increased use of low-carbon and decentralised energy. north-west. We should also be thinking about how to We need a new energy mix, combining renewables, develop the coal industry. new nuclear and clean coal, but to achieve that mix and Unfortunately, because much energy policy is based meet our climate change targets we will be required to on illusions, the Government are not focused on the urgently develop carbon capture and storage technology world and the energy market as they are now. They are alongside renewables. We will need to create sufficient focused on what the Labour Government saw as priorities capacity to meet electricity generation needs at all times, 10 to 15 years ago. The Government need to look and we will need to put the necessary supply chains in objectively at the world and think about how to deal place. We will require the development of smart grid with the energy gap that will exist in four, five or six and electricity networks to meet the needs of a reconfigured, years’ time, and how to get the best value for money out smart and diverse electricity infrastructure and, of course, of the investment we make in energy. investment in coal and gas infrastructure. All that does not come cheap. Depending on what we read, it could cost between £200 billion and £450 billion to achieve. I 3.27 pm have only touched upon the future of coal in the UK energy mix, but it has a strong future. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): In 2009, coal-fired power stations produced It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the approximately 28% of the UK’s electricity supplies, first time, Mr Howarth. I congratulate the hon. Member using 40 million tonnes of coal in total. Last November, for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) on securing the debate and the Minister said that the UK speaking eloquently on behalf of his local colliery. “will rely on gas and coal for years to come”, Many hon. Members have spoken today of serious and he is right. Coal is the most abundant worldwide concerns about capacity and a future energy gap in the energy resource, yet, unabated, it is also the most polluting. UK. My hon. Friends the Members for Midlothian Without finding a way to reduce its harmful effects, we (Mr Hamilton) and for Blackley and Broughton (Graham will not be able to tackle climate change. Stringer) spoke about the urgent need to deal with the The question we therefore face is: how do we ensure issue, and several hon. Members have spoken about that the lights do not go out while at the same time carbon capture and storage, which I shall mention later. balancing the need for greenhouse gas reductions of at I want to focus my remarks on how coal-fired power least 80% by 2050? In government, Labour committed stations fit into Britain’s transition to a low-carbon to funding the first commercial-scale CCS demonstration future, and the integral role that clean coal has to play plant, so we welcomed the coalition’s decision to continue as we reconcile the competing demands of reducing the it. As I mentioned earlier, however, we are still waiting country’s greenhouse gas emissions, while ensuring that for the detailed sign-off of that project. enough energy is generated. I want also to highlight some of the challenges that we face. In addition, many questions remain unanswered in relation to how the crucial second, third and fourth It is clear that a low-carbon future will not be realised projects will be funded. The Government have committed without some contribution from fossil fuels. The urgent to funding them from general taxation, but can the challenge that we must overcome is how to ensure Minister give us more detail about where the money will through the use of technological innovation that the come from? When does he expect the Treasury to release fossil fuels that we use are cleaner. The UK must be a the funds to pay for the project? world leader in investment, research and development, infrastructure and planning across our energy portfolio; It is not just the direct funding for CCS that is but the window of opportunity is closing. We have required. We need to build the right infrastructure, drifted from 2010 to 2011, still awaiting crucial decisions: conduct further research and development into CCS from the re-banding of ROCs, to grid investment, to the projects, and develop innovative financial mechanisms detailed sign-off on the first CCS project. to devise solutions to the financial challenges facing CCS. We are encouraged that the current CCS At the UK coal conference in February the Minister demonstration already includes support for nascent said that detailed sign-off for CCS1 would be confirmed infrastructure that will be needed to support the deployment by July, but when the Energy Bill was in Committee he of CCS, but more needs to be done to develop the referred instead to the summer. I would be grateful if he infrastructure of pipelines and encourage clusters of clarified when we will have detailed sign-off of that those facilities in certain areas beyond the demonstration crucial first CCS project. phase. At the risk of stating the obvious, it is worth explaining What work has the office of carbon capture and why we are where we are. A quarter of the UK’s energy storage at the Department of Energy and Climate Change generating capacity will close by 2018, and as much as done to ensure that those coal-fired power stations that 30% will need to be replaced by 2020. Without prompt may come forward are able to share infrastructure, such action, we face an electricity generation gap in the next as pipelines and capture plants, with industry, to reduce 10 to 15 years as our nuclear and coal-powered stations the overall cost of CCS and to make those plants more are retired. World energy demand is rising and highly economically viable? How will the electricity market politicised. As North sea reserves decline, we are increasingly reform proposals ensure that a viable supply chain can reliant on imported oil and gas, and UK electricity develop to deliver CCS retrofits to a time that is compatible demand is forecast to double over the next 40 years. with our decarbonisation trajectory, as set out by the Adapting to that increase in demand will require a Committee on Climate Change? 319WH Coal-fired Power Stations29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 320WH

[Luciana Berger] is being scrapped? Will there be adequate resources and expertise in the Planning Inspectorate to avoid it being If CCS is to be an integral part of our future energy overwhelmed by the resulting workload, or will it simply security and carbon reduction—although we have to become a rebranded version of the IPC? prove the technology on a commercial scale first—and Before I finish, I wish to raise a few issues that I hope if we wish to be at the forefront of the technology, so the Minister will address in his wind-up. What discussions that we capture the benefits for the domestic and export has he had with the coal industry about the carbon markets in the future, from China, to India, to Brazil, to floor price mechanism and capacity payments? What the US, we must provide the means. In fact, we have a impact does he expect those mechanisms to have on the duty to develop this technology, alongside our European future of coal-fired power stations? neighbours, because with rising global use of electricity The European Union’s emissions trading scheme is a generated by coal, the downsides of delay are significant. cap and trade system. If less CO2 is produced in the Any delay in the roll-out of CCS will mean higher UK, is the Minister concerned that, as fewer CO2 atmospheric concentrations of CO2, which in turn will allowances are used, the introduction of a carbon floor mean that subsequent attempts to limit temperature price will simply result in the migration of the carbon to rises to less than 2°C will be harder to achieve. Some elsewhere in Europe? That point was raised by the hon. calculations suggest that for every year that widespread Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) during an earlier global deployment of CCS is delayed after 2020, the intervention. long-term atmospheric stabilisation level of CO2 increases Will the proposed single tax rate under the carbon by one part per million. Therefore, if we delay by price mechanism disadvantage UK-mined coal against more than a decade, the stabilisation of atmospheric imported coal? There is concern that it will have a concentrations of CO2 at lower levels becomes near detrimental impact on UK coal producers, potentially impossible. According to the International Energy Agency, leading to the closure of more pits, particularly deep without CCS and if we were to rely on other technologies mines, and resultant job losses. alone, the costs of tackling global CO2 emissions will rise by more than 70% each year. In simple monetary Co-firing biomass with coal is a recognised renewable terms, it is a cost of $1.3 trillion annually by 2050. technology and receives renewables obligation support. The hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) During the deliberations of the Energy Bill Committee, has made a powerful case in support of her local plant. the Minister referred to emissions performance standards, However, concerns have been expressed about whether but I hope that he will provide more detail today. What the technology receives sufficient funding. Can the Minister will the introduction of EPS mean for the future of update us on the banding review of renewables obligation coal-fired power stations, and what representations has certificates? What is his intention in relation to co-firing he received on the issue from industry? Will next month’s biomass with coal? electricity White Paper identify the level at which the EPS will be set? What effect does he envisage the EPS In conclusion, coal is important to the UK’s energy having on the British coal industry? As the EPS applies future—as clean coal—to provide the bridge over our only to new-build coal-fired power stations, is it the energy gap and to a low-carbon future. However, we Minister’s intention that the carbon floor price will be face significant challenges and must move quickly to develop the required technology to overcome them, if the mechanism to incentivise a reduction in CO2 emissions from plants? we are to tackle the dangerous threat posed by climate change. I would be grateful if the Minister addresses in Despite concerns from those representing coal-fired his closing remarks the issues I have raised. power stations, particularly about the burden of an extra layer of legislation and the fact that it will apply to Thank you, Mr Howarth, for your stewardship this new-build stations, the right EPS, for example, could afternoon. I also thank the hon. Member for Sherwood help drive investment in carbon capture and storage, for securing the debate and all the Members whose but only if it is set at an intelligent level. In written eloquent contributions have ensured that we have had evidence to the Energy and Climate Change Committee an informed discussion. in January, energy solutions company Alstom said: 3.39 pm “An EPS at a technology-neutral level from, say, 2020, could provide support to the deployment of CCS, increasing the diversity The Minister of State, Department of Energy and and security of supply by enabling continued, but decarbonised, Climate Change (Charles Hendry): It is a great pleasure use of coal.” to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, As such—and while recognising the positive intention Mr Howarth. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member of the EPS to ensure that no new coal-fired power for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) on securing the debate and station should be built in the UK without CCS, and the on the manner in which he introduced it. If there were danger, highlighted by Alstom, of the wrong EPS level any doubt about it, he has proved today that he is a very resulting in no new coal builds—this makes it even fine heir to the seat of Sherwood. The bipartisanship, more critical that the Government drive on with the expertise and understanding that he has shown on the four CCS projects, pre and post-combustion, with urgency. coal industry and wider energy issues are certainly traits Planning is another big and obvious problem for coal that Paddy Tipping and Andy Stewart had. I very much and other new generation capacity. Undoubtedly, with welcome the debate that he has instigated. It would also the closure of many coal-fired power stations over the perhaps be appropriate to put on the record that the next decade, many planning applications will be made hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) would for new coal and gas-fired power stations, alongside normally reply to such a debate for the Opposition. He applications for new nuclear build, onshore and offshore is understandably not here today because of family wind, biomass plants, and so on. What will happen, circumstances and our thoughts and prayers are with therefore, now that the Infrastructure Planning Commission him and his family at a very difficult time. 321WH Coal-fired Power Stations29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 322WH

As I say, we have had an important and useful debate. new investment is coming through in gas; indeed, of the There should be no doubt that we recognise that coal 20-plus GW of consented plant, 60% is gas. A great has been and will continue to be an integral part of our deal of new plant is coming through, but when we energy infrastructure. As my hon. Friend the Member consider that we will lose a third of our coal plant by for Sherwood reminded us, coal makes up on average 2016—it may be more by the end of the decade—and 35% of our electricity generation, but on a cold winter’s much of our nuclear plant during this decade, there is a day that figure could readily be 50%. It is therefore vital real urgency to secure new investment. During this to our energy security. As we have heard during the decade, we are talking about an investment figure in debate, coal is also the most carbon intensive form of excess of £100 billion in terms of electricity generation electricity generation, producing around twice as much and the associated infrastructure. CO per unit of output compared with a gas-fired 2 The hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana power station, together with other environmental pollutants. Berger) said that we had been drifting in terms of some He put the issue in an international context and outlined targets, but I believe it is hard to see that drift. She talks the role that coal is likely to play internationally over about drifting on the CCS time scale, but in fact, we will many years to come. secure that first project much quicker than was anticipated The imperative of tackling climate change means under the previous Administration. She talked about us that we will need to decarbonise our electricity system. drifting on the renewable obligation review; in fact, we In the future, our energy supply will have to be diverse, have brought that forward by a full year from the time adaptable and clean. The technologies that can help to scale we inherited precisely to give clarity to investors. deliver that are: nuclear, which should be built without Where there was ambition before, we have decided to public subsidy; renewable, including biomass, to which match that with a delivery programme, and put in place I shall return; and fossil fuels with the use of carbon a road map for the development of carbon capture and capture and storage. I absolutely agree with the hon. storage, a dedicated Office of Carbon Capture and Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) that this should Storage and a developers forum to identify the barriers not be a debate about one technology versus another. to investment, so that we can directly focus on those. I We need to secure a tremendous amount of investment hope that we are putting in place a clear programme in our energy infrastructure, and we should be encouraging whereby we are saying, “We understand what the challenges that to come from a wide balance of resources. I hope are. How do we make dealing with those a reality?” that we can agree that our energy security is enhanced As I said, coal generation remains an important part by the breadth of that investment portfolio. of our energy mix. UK coal production to date is much As my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood mentioned, stronger this year than last, with surface mine output there is certainly a case for having back-up at times up 400,000 tonnes and deep mine output up by almost a when the wind is not blowing, but that would not million tonnes. Consequently, this year, there has been a necessarily have to be coal; it could be gas. At the significant drop in the volume of imports, which I think moment, the investment case would be much stronger we would all be pleased about. That is partly a result of for a new gas power plant than for coal with CCS destocking and partly because of a steady output from because of the relative costs. That back-up supply could Daw Mill colliery—I was pleased that my hon. Friend also be provided through interconnectors. For example, the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) was here to pay an interconnector to Norway could provide a huge tribute to that. We very much welcome the development amount of potential clean electricity and there could plans that UK Coal has announced for Thorseby and also be additional interconnectors to France or Iceland. the extension of its life that that might bring about. They could be part of that process. During this decade, Total production in 2010 was up on 2009 at a little other storage technologies have been developed, such as over 18 million tonnes, and total coal use was also up. battery, the use of hydrogen, compressed air or heating The net effect of contributions from indigenous production hot water. Those are all ways in which one can enhance and the use of stocked coal was to reduce UK coal the reliability of the renewables sector. Nevertheless, we imports from 38 million tonnes to 26.5 million tonnes, recognise—and the structure we are looking to put in which is a significant fall of 30%. The generating sector the place recognises—that there will also need to be continues to be the main market for coal from all back-up power plant available. sources, particularly from indigenous production. Some We should also recognise the continuing role for gas 80% of the coal we consume is used in electricity in the mix, which has often been missed out in many of generation. I want hon. Members from all parties to be these debates. We have increased the expectation of the in no doubt whatsoever that I, and the Government, likely role that gas will play, which picks up the point believe that there is an important continuing role for made by the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton coal, including indigenous coal, in the energy mix. We (Graham Stringer). The world outlook on gas has changed need to put in the place the right structure to secure the beyond recognition in the past few years and it is right investment that will bring that forward. Indeed, we also that energy policy should evolve to take account of that need the right approach to carbon capture and storage. reality. When he noted that I was shaking my head, I We know that a third of our coal plant is closing as a was not disagreeing with him about the fact that there is result of the large combustion plant directive and that an energy crunch, but about the time scale. My expectation the industrial emissions directive will result in the closure is that the problem will not arise in four or five years, of additional plant. If we reduce the sulphur oxide and but towards the end of the decade. nitrogen oxide emissions, it will improve air quality and A lot of new investment is coming through in gas bring environmental benefits. plant. I opened a new Staythorpe 2 GW plant recently I question my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood in the east midlands and there is also a new 2 GW plant when he calls flue-gas desulphurisation a simple technology. coming onstream shortly in Pembrokeshire. A lot of I have been to Drax to see it. The technology may, 323WH Coal-fired Power Stations29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 324WH

[Charles Hendry] would be no net gain to the world. We would lose the jobs and have to import the products at the end of indeed, be simple from a chemical and engineering it—there would be no gain. That is why we have committed, point of view, but it is vast. It covers many acres and over the course of the rest of this year, to put in place a costs many hundreds of millions of pounds. The companies series of measures to protect critical industries that are that are looking at such technology have to think carefully energy intensive users. about the long-term viability of their plant before they That lays the foundations for a sustainable economy, decide to go through that process. and will help to bring in billions of pounds of investment It is clear that the market structure as it currently into the United Kingdom through greater certainty. It stands will not enable enough new investment to come will help to safeguard jobs, and will help to bring some through in these low-carbon technologies. That is why, of that supply-chain investment to this country, too. during the past year, we have started the process of That is a right and proper target and objective for the electricity market reform. Although the old market Government. It also means that we have to develop structure brought benefits to consumers—we had some carbon capture and storage. of the cheapest electricity and gas prices in Europe, Carbon capture and storage is not a luxury add-on; it although it did not always feel like that—it did not is a fundamental part of our energy approach. We attract important investment in low-carbon technology. recognise the role that coal and gas will play for many The key elements that make up the electricity market years. That is possible with CCS in a way that could not reform process are, first, long-term contracts for low-carbon happen without the development of CCS technology. I generation through a feed-in tariff—a contract for am pleased to see the progress in this country at a time difference—linked with a capacity mechanism. That when we see CCS deployment slipping back in other could be used to provide for the additional plant that is countries—Norway has put it back to 2018, and Holland needed on stand-by for those cold days when the wind is just delaying it, as are other projects elsewhere in the does not blow, for half-time during a world cup football world. Britain remains one of the leaders on this. The match or whenever additional capacity is required. £1 billion is the largest contribution that any Government Alternatively, we could find better ways of spreading anywhere in the world has committed to a single project. the demand more evenly across the day and using that We have built on the work of the previous Government. additional plant more sensibly. Paddy Tipping referred to this as the competition without The electricity market reform process will also look end, because it was going on for so long. I am glad that, at the emissions performance standard, which the hon. in the course of the next few months, we hope to bring Member for Liverpool, Wavertree raised. We will set that to an end, although it is a complicated process. out our plans on that in the forthcoming White Paper. The issues raised by the hon. Lady on shared access We have listened carefully to the industry. I agree with for infrastructure all need to be tied up in legal contracts her that if we set the EPS at the right level, it could be a with a variety of partners. We want to bring that to a strong steer towards new investment. Such an approach close as soon as we can, ideally in these summer months. will make this country more attractive to investors because they will know what is expected of them over the longer term—for example, what the approach to Mr David Hamilton: Will the Minister encourage us grandfathering will be and when the reviews might to find out just exactly what contribution the Scottish happen. The EPS could be a very important steer and Government are making? I believe that the Scottish plus point in terms of attracting investment into this Government are entitled to make a contribution, if that country, although I think I heard her indicate that there is the first big project of its kind to go. Of course, never may be a case at this stage for applying it to gas as well. shall the day come when we have separation—because I My anxiety about that is that we are not in the position am a Unionist through and through—but surely it is to turn away investors who want to invest in gas at this right for this Government to check and make sure time, too. We need to be very clear and careful about that the Scottish Government make a contribution if how it is introduced. The main drivers for low-carbon that day ever did come. technology would be less from the emissions performance standard, and more from the feed-in tariff arrangements Charles Hendry: Energy remains a retained power. that we will introduce. We have also said that we will Clearly, the Scottish Government have decision-making introduce a carbon floor price in 2013, and increasing powers on planning. That is why they have ruled out gradually to 2020. That gives an early and credible such things as new nuclear in Scotland. Nevertheless, long-term signal to investors that we are serious about energy policy is driven from Whitehall and Westminster. encouraging investment in low-carbon technologies. We therefore believe that if this is something that we I understand absolutely the point made by the hon. want to achieve as a national Government, then we Member for Liverpool, Wavertree. We have been talking should be in the driving seat. If the Scottish Government closely with the coal industry, and other people who are were to say, “Here is a few million pounds to make it intensive energy users. We have to balance the urgent happen”, we would of course be very enthusiastic and need to bring forward investment at twice the rate in grateful to them, although there are not many indications this decade than was achieved in the previous decade, to so far that the cheque is in the post. Nevertheless, this meet the security of supply requirements that this country will be taken forward by us, as a Government and as the faces, and to do so in a way that does not create carbon Department of Energy and Climate Change, with a leakage. It would not be sensible to drive away from the cross-party approach here, and I hope that we can find United Kingdom industries that can be a critical part of that agreement in the course of the next few months. our manufacturing process—carbon emitters and heavy We have a range of technologies, an issue touched on energy users. That would only result in that carbon by my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood. This being produced somewhere else in the world. There should not just be about post-combustion technology. 325WH Coal-fired Power Stations29 JUNE 2011 Coal-fired Power Stations 326WH

We need to look at oxy-fuel combustion and pre- We want to see that bid grow out of renewables, but combustion technologies, and that is what we want to some of those technologies for UK tidal would be in the see coming forward. In the course of the rest of this 2020s. We want to see offshore wind ramping up in the year we will set out the nature of the competition for the course of this decade. My hon. Friend is absolutely remaining projects—projects 2 to 4—and look at where right that nuclear is towards to the end of this decade, we would like that to add to our knowledge, the type of but as we start to deal with the crunch to which the hon. technology that we may wish to see coming through Member for Blackley and Broughton referred, we need with that, and to apply that to gas, too. Again, the to see additional gas infrastructure, too. We should not world outlook on gas has changed so much and we need rule out interconnecters as part of that process. to take account of that. Finally, I want to come to the issue of biomass. I am I would say to my hon. Friend the Member for grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock Sherwood that this is a technology that is still in its (Jackie Doyle-Price) for the point she made on that. infancy. We know that the individual parts of it can Electricity from biomass is important to our renewable work. We know that it can be separated—we have seen energy targets, because it brings security of supply that done on a small scale. We know that it can be benefits. It is dispatchable; in other words, when we transported and we know that it can be injected into the need more power, we can generate more power. It can sea bed. However, nobody in the world has done that at be turned up and it can be turned down. It is one of the scale, so we do not yet know what the challenges are of few renewable energy sources that is genuinely adaptable doing that at scale, or what the costs will be. In terms of in that respect. Large-scale dedicated biomass has the a time scale, to have four projects running by 2020 is potential to develop significant levels of renewable electricity extremely ambitious. We are not going to arrive at a by 2020. Electricity from dedicated biomass is cheaper stage where we can move it beyond that. We can absolutely than some other large-scale electricity sources. If biomass see this technology moving forward in the 2020s. Global generation needed to meet the renewable energy target ambition suggests perhaps 100 projects by 2020, but was displaced by more expensive technologies, then 3,000 projects by 2050. This is therefore a process that inevitably there would be a higher cost to consumers. will inevitably start carefully, but then build up dramatically It is encouraging to see the interest from Drax, which over time. Everything that we are doing here is determined is developing dedicated biomass. The work at Tilbury is to ensure that the United Kingdom can be in a real ground-breaking and I join my hon. Friend the Member leadership position. What we also see from industry for Thurrock in paying tribute to RWE npower for the shows that it wants to be part of that process. The work it is doing to make that happen. Part of the NER300 process is a European competition, and almost renewables obligation banding review, which, as I said, half of the schemes coming forward for CCS are in the we have brought forward by a year, will be to determine United Kingdom. That shows the appetite among our the appropriate level of support to bring forward either industry, our universities and our whole supply chain to biomass conversion or co-firing, because of the contribution help lead in this area. that they can make. In conclusion, we believe, without any doubt, that Mr Spencer: I am grateful to the Minister for giving coal can play an important role in our electricity-generating way, as I have taken up more than my quota of time. mix in the future, but only if its carbon dioxide emissions Given that the new technology will not be on the street can be reduced significantly. Electricity market reform until 2020, we will not be in a position to build nuclear will provide the commercial incentives to deliver new power stations by that time scale, and renewable energy low-carbon plant, and our CCS demonstration programme will not be large enough to make the shortfall, does he will ensure that there is a cost-competitive solution to anticipate that the only way we can supply the nation the emissions from coal. will be by importing that power from our neighbours? I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood. This has been a long-overdue debate, and one that has Charles Hendry: No, I do not, although I see it as been extremely constructive. I rejoice at the fact that we being an important contributor. The investment in gas can talk about coal, with Members on both sides of the that we are seeing shows that the energy company House talking about its opportunities and its importance. industry is keen to invest in the gas infrastructure, too. I welcome that—it is a big step forward. 327WH 29 JUNE 2011 Local Rail Services (Bristol) 328WH

Local Rail Services (Bristol) I have campaigned with the Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways and others for a Henbury station and a Henbury loop line. The solution is a no-brainer: the 3.59 pm resurrection of our local lines in Bristol, to complete Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): This the circle line around the city that we partially enjoy debate is on the future of local Bristol rail, an issue that already with the Severn Beach line. A Henbury loop affects not only my constituency of Bristol North West circle line could link with the major stations of Bristol and the city of Bristol but, because the south-west is so Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway, and could provide important a part of Britain, our nation as a whole. a reference point for shuttle transport to major visitor destinations such as the Mall at Cribbs Causeway, in the Bristol is a significant city facing enormous developments, constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Filton but the transport infrastructure is poor. Traffic congestion and Bradley Stoke. He cannot be here today because he at our key motorway junctions can stifle the city and—not is opening the new St Peter’s school in Pilning, but he unrelated—bus fares are among the highest in Europe. has rightly said that, given the likely commercial and Indeed, instead of being the gateway to the south-west, residential development if the sale of Filton airfield Bristol and its region can be described as the tourniquet goes ahead, the case for examining existing rail provision of the south-west. The city is not standing still, however, and the possibility of resurrecting mothballed stations with a new deep-water port at the port of Bristol such as Filton would be really strong. With section 106 making the docks of greater national and international moneys coming from the significant housing development significance, the possible sale for commercial use of in the area, investment for such infrastructure does not Filton airfield in the constituency of my hon. Friend seem out of the question. the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) and the substantial housing development across the In Bristol, which in the past I have talked about in northern arc of Bristol. They are all opportunities but, terms of “A Tale of Two Cities” because of the deep unless the city’s transport infrastructure is capable of socio-economic divides running through it, a circle line supporting them, opportunities could represent burdens. could open access and economic regeneration to some I asked for this debate to emphasise to the Government of the more deprived pockets of our great city, but the the importance of supporting long-term transport economic benefits do not end there. I understand that infrastructure in Bristol, and to point firmly towards some Ministers have already travelled on the Severn rail providing the bedrock of that transportation. Beach line, which runs from Temple Meads station up I am delighted that electrification of the Bristol to the west side of the city. That suburban line provides a London line is going ahead—a major boost for the demonstration of the untapped need and desire for city—and it paves the way for the kind of long-term local railway infrastructure, and the benefits of pump- thinking we need. priming investment. Since welcome investment by Bristol city council in 2008, which my hon. Friend the Member Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): I agree with for Bristol West was active in campaigning for, introducing my hon. Friend that the electrification of the Great more frequent services on the Severn Beach line, passenger Western main line is a fantastic announcement by numbers have rocketed by about 60%, enabling a long-term the coalition Government. Does she agree that that subsidy decrease as the service becomes economically announcement will be enhanced if we could get a more successful. Were the circle line circuit complete commitment from the Government for the Severn Beach around the city, that percentage of passenger increase line, which is merely a small spur off the main line, to be and revenue would likely be an awful lot higher—but electrified at the same time? what we need is joined-up thinking. Charlotte Leslie: My hon. Friend makes an extremely Among parliamentarians, I am delighted there is good point, which anticipates what I was going to say. broad and energetic consensus on the need to work He has done a lot of work lobbying for electrification, together for the future of rail in our region. Sadly, in the and I thank him for that. past, however, a certain lack of co-ordination has led to The electrification is fantastic and, as I said, long-term our region missing out on some major transport investment thinking is massively important, not that the current opportunities. That is why I take this opportunity to smaller schemes for improvement are not welcome. back strongly the creation of an integrated transport However, unless we also think long term, and think big, authority for the region. Other areas, such as West those improvements will merely scratch the surface and Yorkshire and Merseyside, have seen a major resurrection we will not have the available infrastructure to maximise of their local suburban rail services and they have the effects of the small schemes. I am tempted to draw something significant in common: an ITA. So I congratulate an analogy with Joseph Bazalgette’s building of the our local paper, the Evening Post, and a one-man great London sewer system. There is no more time for campaigning army, Dave Wood, on making the case for devising more effective ways of throwing waste out of an ITA so energetically. the window. For transport in Bristol, we need to devise a structural system that completely changes the way we An integrated transport vision is as central to the do things. beating heart of our city as a circulation system of When we come to the solution, there is good news: veins, arteries and capillaries. With a strong, united the bare bones of that new structure for transport in voice, bids for projects such as the reopening of the Bristol already exists. Disused and used freight lines Portishead line and the Henbury loop line can be more lace the city, in particular in and around my constituency effective. If other regions can do it, why cannot we? The of Bristol North West, in the north of the city, and there strong progress of our local enterprise partnership gives are disused stations such as Henbury. The city of Bristol further hope and might provide a great basis for more is sitting on a dormant giant of rail travel. joined-up thinking. So the big vision is a circulation 329WH Local Rail Services (Bristol)29 JUNE 2011 Local Rail Services (Bristol) 330WH system of rail around Bristol, linking with cycling and Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) who, as my bus routes, and park and ride, to make all the schemes hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West said, is more effective. in his constituency. It is a shame that the right hon. More specifically, a major structural concern is to Member for Bristol South (Dawn Primarolo) and the secure quadruple tracking up the Filton bank to Parson hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) are Street station, to alleviate the significant bottleneck not here, because we would then have had a full complement which limits services locally. Failing to secure that now of local MPs to discuss transport issues in our local is a false economy, holding us back for the future, in area. particular given the existing demonstrable demand for As the MP for Kingwood, I do not specifically cover more services. The electrification of the Bristol to London Bristol rail matters, but they are vital for my constituents route is incredibly welcome, not only in itself but for the in terms of integration, and I fully support the development further opportunities it will provide, but any update of the rail networks: the West of England Partnership from the Minister on how far the electrification will and local enterprise partnership have done excellent extend—for example, to Yate or Weston—would be work in pressing the case, as the Minister knows, for most appreciated. Such an extension would open enormous rapid transit links to the northern fringe. My hon. opportunities for the suburban lines, with greater flexibility Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke asked in rolling stock, new routes and diversionary routes for me to read out a statement that he would have made if electric trains when needed. A 30-minute service from he had been here: and to all stations in the former Avon area would be “The Henbury loop line, presently a freight line used by coal transformational, although it is quite a modest vision trains from Avonmouth, will become a very important line for the when compared with other major cities around the local area with expansion of the Avonmouth Docks. It is also a country. very important diversionary route; there is a lot of residential and As I said, the reopening of the Henbury loop and industrial units being constructed in North Bristol so this line needs to be opened up as a passenger line. Portishead lines are particularly important specific proposals. An issue worked on and frequently raised by To achieve this a new station could be built at Henbury, and the closed North Filton station could be rebuilt with a park and the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) is ride site perhaps on land near the now closed airfield. the safeguarding of Plot 6 at Temple Meads for a bus Filton North station is next to the A38 main road. Airbus, and train interchange. In the more immediate term, I Rolls Royce, GKN Systems, Royal Mail and countless of other seek clarification from the Minister about additional firms are based in the near vicinity and the re-opening of this carriages for crowding relief in Bristol; more rolling station could alleviate some of the rush hour traffic problems that stock is badly needed, which is an indication of the the local area currently experiences. appetite for rail travel and the enormous unmet demand. With the closing of Filton airfield, land which is likely to be I ask him to consider that seriously. redesignated to residential and commercial needs, we must get the A Henbury loop line circuit is big thinking indeed, local transport infrastructure right to ensure that we can avoid but rail gets to the core of tackling the underlying serious traffic problems stifling the local area.” problems of Bristol’s transport system. Rail infrastructure Although my constituency lies outside Bristol, all for Bristol would be an absolute game changer for all those issues affect the greater Bristol area, and as united the other methods of transport that we need to improve, coalition partners we want to ensure that we regenerate freeing up the roads for buses and cyclists and transforming Bristol for the better. I again thank my hon. Friend the the park-and-ride potential. The idea has backing—indeed, Member for Bristol North West, and look forward to the scheme is recommended in Network Rail’s route the Minister’s reply. utilisation strategy—and I ask the Minister to look specifically at backing the scheme with practical financial 4.12 pm support. Yes, the thinking is ambitious and long term, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport but I argue strongly that long-term strategic thinking (Norman Baker): I congratulate my hon. Friend the and infrastructure investment is exactly what is needed Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on if the entire Bristol region is to meet the real, pressing securing this debate, and my hon. Friends the Members and ever-increasing transport challenges of the future. I for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) and for Kingswood called for the debate today because the future comes (Chris Skidmore) on contributing to it. The subject is sooner than we think. important and timely. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con) rose— My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West set out with great clarity the importance of the rail Mr George Howarth (in the Chair): Order. Before the network in Bristol to the local economy, and how it can hon. Gentleman starts his speech, I should point out contribute to helping to address congestion problems in that I intend to call the Minister at 15 minutes past 4. and around the city. She said that Bristol is the gateway to the south-west, and the Government fully recognise 4.10 pm that in our planned investment in the inter-city rail Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): I thank my hon. network to Bristol. Indeed, it would not be possible to Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte discuss local rail issues—I will return to them later—without Leslie) for securing this extremely important debate, referring to the significant developments that are planned and I am pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for for the network over the next five to 10 years, and which Bristol West (Stephen Williams). It is rare to be able to will transform Bristol’s links with London and the talk about local issues in Parliament, and this debate is south-east. a great opportunity to do so. It is a shame that more The announcement that the Great Western main line hon. Members could not be present, but I want to give a between London, Bristol and Cardiff will be electrified personal apology from my hon. Friend the Member for has been warmly welcomed in the west of England, and 331WH Local Rail Services (Bristol)29 JUNE 2011 Local Rail Services (Bristol) 332WH

[Norman Baker] That may require some reconfiguration of local services, but the local authorities are well placed to understand I am pleased to hear hon. Members’ support for that passengers’ needs. For example, we are aware that the project today. The line will be equipped with brand new West of England Partnership is keen to see the local rail inter-city express trains, and the current proposal is for service extended from Bristol Parkway to Yate. We four trains an hour to run between Bristol and London, would welcome local input into matters such as whether two an hour via Bath and Chippenham and two an a short extension of electrification from Westerleigh hour via Bristol Parkway. Those via Bristol Parkway Junction to Yate would offer value for money. Likewise, will transform the links between the constituency of my new stations have been suggested for the Bath route, hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West and and now is the time for the partnership to consider such London, given the proximity of Bristol Parkway station. issues. Both routes into Bristol will be electrified and, with We are keen that proposals for infrastructure electrification of the Severn tunnel route through to enhancement are robust and based on sound evidence. Cardiff, three of the local routes—Cardiff to Bristol, It is in nobody’s interest to promote unsustainable or Bristol Parkway to Bristol, and Bath to Bristol—will be undeliverable schemes or schemes that have little chance able to accommodate electric trains. There are no plans of securing funding. It is therefore important that work to electrify the line to Weston-super-Mare or the Severn is undertaken to understand the viability of those options. Beach line. However, because some of the new inter-city I want to make it clear that the Government are pro-rail. trains will be bi-mode trains and able to run on electric We have a major programme of investment in the rail or diesel power, some inter-city trains will continue to network. Indeed, it is reasonable to conclude without operate to Weston-super-Mare, as they do today, and hyperbole that our rail investment programme is the will switch seamlessly—at least, I hope so—from electric biggest since the Victorian era. to diesel power at Bristol Temple Meads. In the Bristol area, the local authorities work closely Another recent announcement is significant for the together as the West of England Partnership. Although area. The Secretary of State has announced that the they are free to consider whether there might be benefits Thameslink route through London will receive new in forming an integrated transport authority—my hon. rolling stock from about 2015. That means that, as far Friend the Member for Bristol North West referred to as Bristol is concerned, there will be a pool of electric that, and some people believe that there would be rolling stock available to operate some Bristol area local significant benefits—it is not essential that they do so rail services should the operator of the new Great for the purposes of securing improvements or investment Western franchise choose to use them. I realise that in local rail services. If local people want to consider capacity is an issue. We are currently negotiating with forming an ITA, we will pay close attention to that. First Great Western for provision of additional diesel The partnership has a number of plans for rail, and carriages, but I cannot confirm at the moment when there are no institutional barriers preventing them from they will arrive or what the exact number will be. achieving them. However, the prospect of electric trains will ease the position considerably. We are keen to see the local authority partnership I said that this debate is timely, and there are three aligned with the local enterprise partnership, and together reasons. First, detailed planning of the electrification to play a leading role in determining the future of the scheme is now under way, and there may be opportunities local rail network. For example, that structure could to add to the scheme better to meet the needs of the deal with the safeguarding of Plot 6 at Bristol Temple local area if funding can be identified locally. Secondly, Meads. The West of England Partnership already takes First Great Western has recently announced that it is an active role in transport, and has established a rail taking up the option that the previous Government protocol with train operators and Network Rail. I made available to it under the terms of the franchise of understand that the local enterprise partnership has terminating it in 2013 rather than 2016. Therefore, plans for regeneration around Temple Meads station. detailed work will have to be carried out on the specification The West of England Partnership has created the for the new franchise. Local authorities need to be ready concept of a Bristol metro network of regular-frequency to input into the process, and to discuss their ideas with local rail services, and has been very supportive of bidders when they emerge in due course. For the avoidance North Somerset council’s efforts to reopen the Portishead of doubt, we welcome local people’s views of the new line. The next step will be to identify how those franchise arrangements which we are putting in place enhancements could be delivered and, more importantly, throughout the country. Thirdly, we are keen to explore funded. The reopening of that line would required the the scope for devolving further aspects of rail to local reopening of passenger services on a freight-only line authorities, and a good time to do so is when a franchise from Parson Street junction to Portbury junction, and is due for renewal and the area is set to benefit from the reinstatement of track from Portbury junction to a major investment. new station at Portishead. Our rough estimate is that The electrification scheme creates major opportunities reopening would cost £35 million to £40 million. Steps for the local rail network around Bristol. Electric trains are obviously under way to make Network Rail more are cleaner, quieter and have better acceleration than efficient, and to drive down costs, but that is our present diesel trains, so they are ideally suited to providing local estimate. Such a move would require the provision of rail services in densely used urban areas. The journey- new train services, perhaps every half hour during peak to-work area in Bristol is expanding, as my hon. Friends times and every hour off-peak. At the moment, that know only too well, so now is the time for the local would need an ongoing subsidy, which is an important authorities to consider how the local rail network can consideration when working out the economics of any be adapted to maximise the benefits of electrification. reopening. 333WH Local Rail Services (Bristol)29 JUNE 2011 Local Rail Services (Bristol) 334WH

Reference was made to the possibility of reopening account of local needs and aspirations, and as we have the line to passenger services between Avonmouth and seen, local authorities are already able to finance rail Filton Abbey Wood. That would create a north Bristol services and schemes using funds available for local circle line that would run from Temple Meads via transport. We believe it is important that decisions on Clifton Down to Avonmouth, and back to Temple local priorities are made by local authorities rather than Meads via a reopened Henbury station. I am sure that central Government, so there are currently no plans to such a circle line would be more reliable than the one I establish a central fund for local rail schemes. Instead, use on a regular basis, which runs not far from this local authorities should identify which local funding Chamber. sources are most appropriate for a rail scheme, and decide whether such a scheme should have a higher Stephen Williams: I share the vision of that north priority than, for example, a highway or bus scheme. Bristol circle line with my hon. Friend and neighbour Although the coalition Government’s current priority the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie). must be to reduce the budget deficit, we are making It would also provide the opportunity for new stations available a significant amount of money—£560 million— along that route. My hon. Friend mentioned some through the local sustainable transport fund. That is stations that she would like in her constituency, and I more money for local transport than was provided over will add Ashley Hill station to that list. It would be on the past four-year period, despite the difficult economic the Filton Bank line and serve about 20,000 residents climate that we face. We are also making a contribution either side of where the station used to be—the platform to the regional growth fund to enable some schemes to is still there. It would also serve Gloucestershire cricket proceed before 2014. All that is in addition to the major club and Fairfield high school. local transport schemes budget, and in September the West of England Partnership will make five bids to the Norman Baker: My hon. Friend has long campaigned Department for schemes linked to the development very strongly on these issues and I welcome his involvement. pool. We will make decisions on those schemes around Objectively, if we are to reopen a line it is a good idea to Christmas. The area has already had one scheme approved attract as many passengers as possible, and the provision for the Greater Bristol bus network, which is nearing of extra stations could be a useful way to achieve that. completion. The West of England Partnership has made A cost-benefit analysis would be carried out for each a key component bid and a large project initial proposal station to look at whether reopening it would make to the local sustainable transport fund, and an sense to the project as a whole. My hon. Friend has announcement on the key component bid will be made given several examples of why he believes that would be shortly. the case for the station that he mentioned. We will soon be consulting on a more devolved Although the line between Filton Abbey Wood and approach to major local schemes that will be in place Bristol is intact, we would need to increase its capacity, from April 2015. Such an approach will provide the and Network Rail is considering how to accommodate opportunity for groups of local authorities, working the extra trains. There would also be the question of with local enterprise partnerships, to consider once how to serve the branch line from St Andrews road to again the transport priorities for their area that the fund Severn Beach. In the first instance, the West of England might help to meet. That is particularly important Partnership will determine whether that scheme should for the reopening of the Portishead line, which has be a priority, although to date it has provided no been frequently mentioned in this debate, through indication that it would seek to explore that proposal, correspondence with the Department, and in other given that the Bristol metro and the Portishead line forums. appear to be higher priorities. Hon. Members from the The aspiration is to reopen that line by 2017, but it is Bristol area may wish to pursue that point with the essential to first establish that that is the best way to West of England Partnership. Bristol city council funds meet the needs of the area and a priority for investment additional services on the Severn Beach line, which has among other potentially competing claims. The local contributed to a significant growth in the usage of the authority has carried out important work with Network line. Perhaps that model could be employed elsewhere Rail through the governance for railway investment in the area. projects process—GRIP.It also, however, needs to establish Let me take the opportunity to congratulate the demand for the scheme and to demonstrate that there is community rail partnership. It has done tremendous a business case and that ongoing financial support is work in improving stations, promoting the network affordable. Initially, that must be demonstrated locally around Bristol and, importantly, involving local people and not by the Department. We will respond to that in its schemes. That has produced a tremendous sense local pressure. of pride and ownership in the local rail network. My To conclude, electrification brings opportunities for right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Transport improvements to the local rail network around Bristol. recently visited the line and was impressed with the There is an important role for local authorities, working achievements of the community rail partnership. She together through the West of England Partnership, to was keen for me to refer to those achievements in my carry on the good work and seize the initiative by taking remarks today. advantage of such schemes. The Department will be Conditions already exist for local authorities to take happy to provide advice and guidance to hon. Members, on greater responsibility for local rail services. The councillors and others in the Bristol area, to ensure that Department for Transport will be happy to discuss ways people are able to maximise the opportunities in their of achieving that with those local authorities, and help area. Ultimately, however, it is for local people to lead as best it can. As I have already mentioned, there may on such matters, and the Department will have a supportive be scope to modify the electrification scheme to take role. 335WH 29 JUNE 2011 Computer Games Industry 336WH

Computer Games Industry Alongside that, the Irish Culture Minister, Jimmy Deenihan, announced at the start of this month that the Irish Government were looking to implement tax breaks to 4.26 pm encourage games developers to move to Ireland. That is Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): It is a pleasure all the more concerning given what we know of Ireland’s to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth, and I ability to attract high-investment technology companies thank the House and the Speaker’s Office for giving me to its shores—its banks notwithstanding. I am referring the opportunity to raise an issue of great importance to to companies such as Microsoft and Apple. my constituency: the computer games industry. That is why I am calling on the UK Government to As hon. Members will be aware, calls for the Government reconsider their approach to Government support for to provide more support to this important industry the industry. There is a significant risk that our industry have been made for some time, and during both the will be further outmanoeuvred by countries such as previous Parliament, and this Parliament, I and many Canada, Ireland and the United States and we will lose of my colleagues have asked the Government to act. the investment that communities such as those in my The previous Labour Government committed themselves constituency cannot do without. to introducing tax breaks to encourage start-up companies and overseas developers to establish operations in the Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): UK. The election of the coalition Government saw that I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate, policy scrapped, despite the support of Liberal Democrat which is important for jobs in Dundee. As he rightly and Conservative Front-Bench spokespeople before the identified, just five weeks before the general election, election. both coalition partners promised that they would introduce The UK computer games industry is a substantial tax breaks for the industry. Has my hon. Friend had any contributor to investment in the UK. In Scotland alone, indication as to why that policy has changed? £30.2 million is invested in salaries and overheads, £27.5 million is contributed to the Exchequer, and a direct and indirect contribution of £66.8 million is Jim McGovern: I thank my hon. Friend for his made to UK GDP. In the UK as a whole, those figures intervention. I can quote from the evidence taken by the rise to a £1 billion contribution to GDP, and £400 million Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, which conducted a year that goes to the Treasury. an inquiry into this subject. It was said in that Committee that on 29 March—just five weeks before the general In Dundee, the arrival of a successful games developer election—the then shadow Minister said that the has been a major factor in the revival of the city’s Conservatives were fortunes, following the loss of major manufacturing industries in the 1980s and ’90s. The computer games “going to support tax breaks for the video games industry…We industry has contributed to help Dundee fast become a are fully behind game tax breaks. This is my unequivocal statement. destination of choice for investors. Millions of pounds It’s been approved by George Osborne.” have been invested into the city and much-needed high- However, in the very first Budget, in June 2010, they quality jobs have been created. Such investment has scrapped that. I have never heard a reasonable explanation also provided an opportunity for young graduates, many of why that happened. Perhaps this afternoon we will of whom studied in Dundee, to pursue graduate careers hear one. in the city when before they would have left to work elsewhere. That has had a tremendously positive effect Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): I, too, congratulate on the city. my hon. Friend on securing this very important debate. All that, however, is now at risk. Like many major As I understand it, the Government tell us that the key industries, the computer games industry operates in a to recovery is growth and support for small and medium- globalised economy and faces stiff competition from sized enterprises. Is my hon. Friend saying that we are abroad. In that environment, just as in many others, entering this competitive field with one hand tied behind global competition is squeezing British industry. Like our backs? ship building, general manufacturing and steel production before them, UK creative industries are being tempted away by countries that offer ever more enticing business Jim McGovern: I thank my hon. Friend for his environments. Canada is a particular threat. Last week intervention. The Government seem to be saying that the Entertainment Software Association of Canada differences in corporation tax and research and development produced a report highlighting the fact that Canada’s tax credits are good enough to support the computer computer games industry has significantly benefited by games industry.My view and that of TIGA, the association poaching companies from the UK. It estimates that that represents the computer games industry, is that a because of tax breaks, the industry will grow by 17% over one-size-fits-all policy is not good enough and there the next two years. Between 2008 and 2010, the Canadian should be a specific solution for specific industries, such games industry grew by 33%; over the same period, the as the computer games industry. UK’s games industry fell by 9%. The one policy difference between the UK and our We have seen recent evidence of that phenomenon in competitors is a scheme of tax incentives for games the UK when a games developer in Warrington closed developers. Canada offers tax breaks of 17.5% to 37.5% and staff were offered positions in the company’s Canadian on labour expenditure. As I said, Ireland is investigating office. There is more bad news for the UK industry. The how best to implement tax breaks, and Pennsylvania is US state of Pennsylvania announced this week that it is offering a 25% tax break, which is similar to that to introduce a 25% tax break for games developers. offered by the other 16 US states that offer such support. That makes it the 17th US state to offer such support. It is clear that the UK is being outdone by those tax 337WH Computer Games Industry29 JUNE 2011 Computer Games Industry 338WH regimes. That is why I am calling on the UK Government I welcome the recent changes to R and D tax credits, to introduce a tax incentive scheme that rivals those but the Government could do much more in that regard. other countries’ schemes. Only some of the recommendations have been met. I As the Minister will be aware, the Scottish Affairs call on the Government to extend that programme to Committee investigated the current state and benefits of make the available tax credits more generous and to the computer games industry in Scotland. Its conclusion work with the industry to discover how best the scheme on tax breaks was clear. It said that there were compelling could be tailored to its needs. reasons to introduce tax breaks and that the UK That brings me to the third way in which the Government Government should begin a consultation process to see could make the business environment more attractive to how best to achieve that. That is additional to recent games developers. Start-up developers face serious trouble calls by major international developers. Three of the in securing loans and financing from the banks. I know largest—Activision Blizzard, THQ and Ubisoft—have that that is a wider problem experienced by small and publicly stated that tax breaks in the UK would make medium-sized enterprises throughout the UK, but I ask them much more likely to invest here. There are many the Government to redouble their efforts to ensure that reasons why they do so now. the banks grant the finance required for start-ups to get going. Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I thank the Research conducted on behalf of the Department for hon. Gentleman for giving way on that point in this Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department very important debate. Has there been an estimate of for Culture, Media and Sport by Dr Stuart Fraser of the long-term tax revenue that could be generated if the Warwick business school and IFF Research in May UK’s share of the market was to grow through the use highlights the worrying extent of the difficulties that of tax incentives? creative industries face in securing financing. They are much more likely than other industries to be turned down by the banks. That was highlighted in the Scottish Jim McGovern: There has been an estimate. TIGA Affairs Committee report on this subject. According to reckons that tax breaks would help 2,500 new jobs to be research by the trade body TIGA, the majority of 104 created and would maintain and protect 3,000 current surveyed games companies reported either that there jobs. was no difference in their ability to borrow from their bank or that the situation had got worse in the course of Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con): Does the hon. last year. Gentleman agree that we need to think not just about The Government have committed themselves to the short-term position, but the long term? Given that improving the access to finance from banks from the this is such a transient product, which can go from all-time low that we experienced due to the banking border to border, we need to think about how the whole crash. Clearly that has yet to produce any results for the market is developing. Therefore, tax breaks are important computer games industry.As with many creative industries, in our thinking about how we can maximise revenue there is risk associated with games developers, as the going into the future, not just in the short term. sad demise of Realtime Worlds in my constituency illustrates. A product that fails to sell can have a dramatic Jim McGovern: I certainly do agree. We do need a impact on a company. However, without some risk long-term strategy. Everyone involved with the computer being taken, industry and the economy simply will not games industry—it is a big thing in my constituency of grow. I ask the Government and the banks to work in Dundee West—agrees that a long-term strategy is required, partnership with the industry to see investment increased but in the short term, to prevent companies from going and jobs created. bust or moving to Ireland or Canada, tax breaks would be very important. They would be a big factor in Lindsay Roy: Is it not ironic that the Government helping companies to survive. have invested heavily in Abertay university to enhance I and many others are deeply disappointed that the the skills profile? If these jobs are not available, we will present Government have ignored the call for tax breaks see a drain from that investment overseas. and stubbornly remain of the view that that is a policy they choose to disregard. The Government’s one-size-fits-all Jim McGovern: I thank my hon. Friend for his approach to tax incentives simply is not working. While intervention. He is absolutely correct. When we took the UK Government remain outwitted by our international evidence at Abertay university, we were told that, every competitors, it is highly likely that inward investment day, students there who are studying the computer will be lost. As with other major economic sectors games industry and will graduate in that subject are previously, the UK will lose out because of a Government receiving phone calls from France, Ireland and Canada who choose to ignore the calls of industry, rather than saying that they will be offered a job there. Most of the listen. students who study computer games do not end up I will move on to another way in which the UK employed by a company in the UK; they end up starting Government can support the industry. This is a case not their own business. It is extremely galling for people in just of tax breaks, although they are fundamental, but Dundee, who want to locate in Dundee, to find that it is of the range of measures that developers feel would much easier to move abroad than to stay in the UK, so I support them. The Scottish Affairs Committee stated in thank my hon. Friend for that point. its report that the Government must work with industry On that subject, if we stifle young companies with a bodies to best determine how to better publicise the lack of finance, we cannot hope to see economic growth. availability of R and D tax credits and to introduce a We must return to rewarding those who take appropriate, more targeted R and D scheme to the industry. but not reckless, risk in starting and running businesses. 339WH Computer Games Industry29 JUNE 2011 Computer Games Industry 340WH

[Jim McGovern] I sincerely fear that we have an overly simplistic one-size-fits-all solution that does not address the differing There are other proposals that the UK Government needs of UK businesses. Economic growth is stagnating, could implement to support UK games developers. inward investment has fallen sharply since the crash TIGA has called for the creation of a creative content and remains low, and computer games developers say fund. That would allow for funding on a pound-for-pound loudly that the Government are paying no attention to basis up to £100,000 for companies that produce highly the problems that they face. That is why I ask the creative content. The UK Government must acknowledge Government to think again about their broad-brush that computer games developers and other creative and overly simplistic attitude to supporting business. industries have specific requirements that are not being They must get stuck in and get their sleeves rolled up, addressed. The creation of a creative content fund working out appropriate solutions for UK business and would target funding on those industries, and show that taking on the job of creating economic growth. Their their needs were catered for. It would encourage investment, do-nothing strategy is simply not working. growth and job creation. I ask the Minister to draw up The best place for them to start—I hope that I do not plans to consult on introducing these measures, and to flatter myself—is to commence work on the proposals work with the industry and the Treasury to put in place that I have outlined today to support the UK computer a policy that encourages and rewards creative investment. games industry. Constituencies such as mine of Dundee As for the value of higher education and of a skilled West, and constituencies throughout Scotland and the work force for the industry, I am well aware that higher UK, suffered when the last Conservative Government education spending is a devolved matter, but the failed to stand up for UK business, allowing us to be Government could do a number of things. A major outwitted by foreign competitors. I strongly ask this requirement for developers is a highly skilled and trained Government not to make the same mistake. work force. The industry is populated largely by graduates and, as I mentioned earlier, securing jobs for Dundee graduates has had a great effect on the city. 4.43 pm I welcome the Government’s decision earlier this year The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, to award funding to Abertay university. However, it Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose): It is a remains a small sum compared with the support that pleasure, Mr Howarth, to see you in the Chair and could be offered. The Scottish Affairs Committee’s looking after us this afternoon. I thank the hon. Member report highlighted the real concern that there are too for Dundee West (Jim McGovern) for initiating the few mathematics and computer science graduates to debate. As he says, the computer games industry is an sustain the industry. Abertay has led the way on this, important part of our national economy. It is responsible and I urge the Government to work with universities for many high-quality and high-skilled jobs, and it and industry to ensure that we have the work force and is also part of the knowledge economy. The debate is skills base that the economy needs. Abertay has acted as therefore most timely, and I congratulate him on an experiment on what can be done in partnership securing it. between higher education institutions and the private I start with a brief apology, Mr Howarth. You may sector. I ask the Government to work with the Scottish have noticed that I am not the Minister who was supposed Executive to develop working relationships of that sort, to have answered this debate. The reason is that the and to ensure that public spending cuts do not harm Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and access to higher education or the quality of teaching Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage and research. (Mr Vaizey), is currently at an OECD conference in The theme that runs through my speech today is a Paris—some people have all the luck, you may say—on call for a more coherent and aggressive growth strategy the subject of broadband and the internet. I am therefore from the Government. I well understand Ministers arguing standing in for him. I toyed with the possibility of that we need a simplified tax incentive structure. I am getting my ministerial colleague to represent himself by sure that we would all agree that unnecessary complication Skype, possibly by superfast broadband, as he is also would be a hindrance to economic growth. However, we Minister with responsibility for the digital economy, but sometimes need an element of necessary complication. I thought that might be a step too far even for the newly The temptation to find simple solutions to complicated modernised House of Commons. I therefore stand in problems can be far too alluring; instead, we should his stead. accept that there is a case to be made for having specific solutions to specific problems. Individual industries I am not sure that the hon. Member for Dundee West require tailored support to meet their needs. Whether it and I will agree on all points of industrial strategy—I is tax breaks for the UK film industry or tax breaks for suspect not—but I shall respond to some of the points games developers, the Government must introduce policies that he made. In particular, I respectfully take issue with that actually work for the many important industries his comment that the Government are pursuing a “do that we have in the UK. nothing” strategy. We are doing a great deal, although not necessarily precisely what he suggests. I shall say Mike Weatherley: The hon. Gentleman is generous in what we are doing, and then we can debate whether giving way. Does he agree that it is important not only there is room for additional activity. that the Government are behind the financial incentives I am sure that we agree that the economic and cultural but that there is copyright protection for those who value of the UK video games industry is high. The produce the product? long-term potential of the global market is exciting. Jim McGovern: I certainly would not disagree. As I PricewaterhouseCoopers suggests that the global market said earlier, the Government could do much more. The for video games will grow from $56 billion in 2010 to hon. Gentleman makes a valid and important point. $82 billion in 2015; that is an 8.2% compound annual 341WH Computer Games Industry29 JUNE 2011 Computer Games Industry 342WH rate of growth. The hon. Gentleman and I have also One of the major points of difference between the said that games companies are typically knowledge-intensive hon. Gentleman and me in our approach to macro- and high value, and offer high-quality jobs. They fit well economics in general and to the industry—and also on with our aim to rebalance the economy, both in terms a micro-economic basis—is that I am unsure where we of sectoral ability and geographical coverage, and to would find the money to do some of the things that he move away from the historic over-reliance on things suggests, such as tax breaks here and there. I respectfully such as the financial services industry and the south-east. suggest that he will need his own Treasury Front-Bench team to sign up to what he suggests. I suspect that those Lindsay Roy: I understand that different approaches Front Benchers will be leery of doing so, because they are taken for the film industry and the video games would then have to explain which bits of other budgets, industry, but they both have huge opportunities for such as health or education, they would cut in order to creative development. Why do we have that differential? release money for this, which taxes they would raise to pay for the additional tax breaks, or how they would John Penrose: I think that the hon. Gentleman is persuade the financial markets, on the day that Greece referring to the fact that a tax break is already in place is voting for its austerity package, that we should be for the film industry, but we do not have quite the same borrowing more money for this, that or the other. This system for the video games industry. There is a piece of is an essential piece of macro-economic prudence, and I history here, which I offer as an explanation. suspect it is a fundamental difference of approach between The film industry has an existing state aid exemption; us. I understand where he is coming from, but I am it is an acknowledged piece of state aid that is registered trying to explain where we are. with EU authorities and anyone else who needs to know. We are registering it under the next iteration of Justin Tomlinson: I understand 100% the point the those rules, which is coming up. The reason is that it Minister makes about the constraints in the financial seemed at the time—we continue to agree—that it was sector. However, he also referred to the fact that this is a an important piece of cultural ambassadorship as much growing market and there is an opportunity. Can we at as a business opportunity. We cannot necessarily say least have an assurance that the Government are continuing that for “Grand Theft Auto”, important though it may to consider ways to support the industry and that, as be for the UK industry and for jobs. The film industry and when opportunities arise, they will be considered? does both jobs. It fulfils the role of cultural ambassador; the video games industry is economically important. John Penrose: I can absolutely make that assurance. I That is the historic explanation. The shortage of money, would like to go back to some of the things that we are which I intend to deal with in my response to the hon. already doing, which I hope will bring a significant Member for Dundee West, is why we are where we are; benefit to this industry and others. there is no money to extend such provision, even if we could. Jim McGovern: The Minister said that I should ask my Front-Bench colleagues to sign up to this. Obviously, Jim McGovern: I thank the Minister for giving way. they have: they made a commitment prior to the general The figures given to the Scottish Affairs Committee election that they would give tax breaks to the computer during its inquiry suggest that the tax breaks received games industry. The Minister’s party also supported by the film industry cost in the region of £110 million a that, as did the Liberal Democrats and the Scottish year. The previous Government committed themselves National party. I am not looking for a U-turn; I am to tax breaks for the computer games industry worth looking to the Government to honour their commitment. £55 million a year. However, the computer games industry The Minister makes the point about the Labour legacy, generates more for our GDP than the film industry. which I think everybody is getting a bit scunnered Further to that, the Committee said that calling them listening to. If that is the case, why can Ireland offer tax video or computer games was rather misleading, as the breaks but the UK cannot? Ireland is held up as an industry is also involved in medical research and example of a country that is economically worse off architectural science. It is not just people playing “Grand than the UK. Theft Auto” or “APB”. John Penrose: That brings me neatly to one of the John Penrose: The hon. Gentleman is quite right to other points made by the hon. Gentleman. He accused say that there is a broader aspect to the matter. I was us of having an over-simplistic, one-size-fits-all policy. using “Grand Theft Auto” as a quick example rather The difference between here and Ireland is that, over than a widely based covering comment. 13 years under the previous Government, the UK developed As for the numbers cited by the hon. Gentleman, I one of the most complicated, long, difficult, baroque say this. Businessmen should always face many more and over-ornamented systems of business taxation in ideas that would produce a positive return on their the developed world. We start with an incredibly complex investment than they can afford. That is a fact of life in taxation system, so moving gently towards a slightly any industry, and certainly in the creative industries. simpler approach does not mean we are becoming There might be 100 options that could increase the over-simplistic or deciding that one size fits all. We bottom line, but they will not be able to afford to use would have to go a long way to get anywhere near the them; they will not have the cash, the people or resources scenario the hon. Gentleman describes. Ireland is not in general. That is the case with the Government. We starting from that over-complicated position. It has all inherited a terrible fiscal position, and the country’s sorts of other constraints. It has major macro-economic balance sheet was in a very bad state. There are all sorts and public finance problems, as he rightly says, but it is of things that might create a positive return, but we not starting from one of the most complicated and physically do not have the cash for them. baroque business tax systems in the world, as we are. 343WH Computer Games Industry29 JUNE 2011 Computer Games Industry 344WH

[John Penrose] state aid approval. I know that many in the games sector have warmly welcomed those reforms as a boost We need to move to a simpler system. It is difficult to to innovative video games businesses in the UK. argue that decisions on whether to invest in this or that The Government also announced changes to the part of a business will be driven effectively and productively schemes that help to incentivise equity investment in by a system that requires encyclopaedic PhD-level small, high-growth companies. The hon. Gentleman knowledge and understanding of business taxation. mentioned the importance of those to this industry, and What actually happens in business—and having been in many others. Those schemes are the enterprise investment business, I can vouch for it—is that one makes the right scheme and venture capital trusts. We welcome the news decision on the basis of what customers want and what that consultants Olswang plan to work with others on is affordable and one tries to position the business in an independent analysis considering how measures such that way. One then turns to the bloke who runs the as EIS and VCTs can be exploited by games developers finance department and says, “Can you retro-fit any of and the investment community to boost levels of investment this into some kind of useful tax break that the Government in the sector. have already introduced?” That does not drive decision I should also say that it is not just a matter of tax making, unless it is a very large and particular kind of policy, although that is important, and the hon. Gentleman system, of which there are few. rightly focused many of his remarks in that area. There Therefore, that kind of over-complicated tax system are other things that can and need to be done to is fundamentally less effective than it should be in improve the environment for enterprise in this country. driving investment decisions. That is why one needs to For example, the enterprise finance guarantee will provide move to a simplistic system with straightforward incentives: up to £600 million of additional lending to around if someone invests and does the right thing for customers, 6,000 viable SMEs in 2011 and, subject to demand, over they will earn more money, it will drop through to the £2 billion in total over the next four years. For the bottom line and investors will do well. That is the enterprise capital funds, the Government are increasing thinking behind it. their commitment by £200 million over the next four That said, as I mentioned to my hon. Friend the years, providing more than £300 million venture capital Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), we are investment into the equity gap for early stage innovative trying to do a series of things that will help the industry SMEs with the highest growth potential. and others. I will lay out some of those, as the hon. The regional growth fund has made £1.4 billion available Member for Dundee West challenged me to do so. I over three years for projects or programmes that deliver want to ensure I respond, to show that we are not a “do the fund’s objectives to stimulate enterprise by providing nothing” Government. However, he is right to say that support for projects and programmes with significant the UK faces strong competition for video games investment potential to drive economic growth. from overseas, particularly from Canada, which offers targeted tax incentives for games producers. I am aware, Lindsay Roy: Is there not a criticism that there is a of course, of the trade association TIGA’s campaign for lack of strategic focus on the video games industry? I the introduction of a specific tax relief to support video strongly support the investment in the Abertay graduate games production in the UK. Its job is to campaign for programme, but evidence indicates that the majority of such things; it would not be doing its job well if it did young people who graduate from there are going abroad. not make that argument. In someone else’s famous They are not staying in the UK, whether they are from phrase, “They would say that, wouldn’t they?” Dundee or south of the border. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, as I have mentioned John Penrose: That is a fact of life in an increasingly before, keeps all decisions on tax policy under review. globalising market. This is a globalising market, not However, we believe that in general providing a low just for the product of video games, but for the staff. corporate tax rate with fewer reliefs and allowances, as I Many other industries are already incredibly globalised, have explained, will provide the best incentive for business everything from financial to medical services. This sector development and promoting economic growth. Many will be going the same way. I am sure we will all be games companies in the UK will benefit from the reforms delighted to see British brains and talent travelling the announced in Budget 2010 and Budget 2011. To remind world. It is true to say that many people come back to hon. Members, the UK’s main rate of corporation tax the UK later in their career and start up businesses here will fall to 23% by 2014. That means we will have the or join at a senior level. lowest rate in the G7 and the fifth lowest in the G20, I am conscious of time so would like to draw to a ensuring the UK remains a competitive place to do close by saying that I fear the hon. Member for Dundee business. West and I are not going to agree on a fundamental The hon. Member for Dundee West said that businesses point about macro-economic policy. I hope I have, none are leaving. It is worth pointing out that many major the less, laid out that the Government are doing a series global games companies choose to locate their European of things. Unfortunately, they are not precisely what he headquarters in the UK, and continue to do so. For recommends. However, it is not true that we are a “do example, we have Sony Computer Entertainment, Sega, nothing” Government; we are doing a great deal. I fear Disney Interactive and Activision all here in the UK. that he and I will have to disagree on precisely what that The Government have also made major reforms to should be. the R and D tax credit. From 1 April 2011 the rate of Question put and agreed to. tax relief for small and medium-sized enterprises increased from 175% to 200% of qualifying tax relief. From 4.59 pm 1 April 2012 that will rise further to 225%, subject to Sitting adjourned. 49WS Written Ministerial Statements29 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 50WS

The Prime Minister also reappointed Professor Dame Written Ministerial Janet Finch as independent co-chair of CST for one year, alongside the Government’s chief scientific adviser, Statements currently Professor Sir John Beddington. Full details of CST’s terms of reference and organisation Wednesday 29 June 2011 can be found at http://www.bis.gov.uk/cst.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Council for Science and Technology Travellers Caravan Count The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts): The Prime Minister has appointed 11 new members to the CST. This process was made in accordance The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for with the rules of the Office of the Commissioner for Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): Public Appointments. The Government have, on 29 June, published the “Count The CST is the UK Government’s top-level advisory of Gypsy and Traveller Caravans undertaken on 27 January body on science and technology policy issues. It reports 2011”, along with experimental statistics on the count directly to the Prime Minister. CST’s remit is to advise of Travelling Showpeople caravans. the Prime Minister on strategic science and technology Copies have been placed in the Library of the House policy issues that cut across the responsibilities of individual and can be accessed via the Department for Communities Government Departments. and Local Government website at: The newly appointed members are: http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ Professor Keith Burnett FRS—Vice-Chancellor of Sheffield corporate/statistics/caravancountjan2011 University; Professor Steven Cowley —CEO of the UKAEA; Professor Dame Sandra Dawson—Deputy Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge University; DEFENCE Mr Rowan Douglas—CEO of Willis Re Global Analytics and Chairman of Willis Research Network; Dr Paul Golby FREng—Chairman and CEO of E.ON UK Armed Forces (Council Tax Relief) and Pro-Chancellor of Aston University; Professor Dame Julia Goodfellow FMed Sci—Vice-Chancellor University of Kent; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Dr Michael Lynch—CEO of Autonomy Corporation plc; (Mr Andrew Robathan): Further to the statement made Professor Dame Nancy Rothwell FRS FMedSci—President by my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for and Vice-Chancellor of Manchester University; Defence on 16 May 2011, Official Report, columns Mr Colin Smith FREng—Director of Engineering and 25-27, regarding the armed forces covenant, I am today Technology at Rolls-Royce; announcing the increase of the rate of council tax relief Professor Christopher Snowden FRS FREng—Vice-Chancellor for service personnel deployed on specified operations and CEO of Surrey University; overseas, from 25% to 50%, to commence from 1 July Dr Graham Spittle—Vice-President and Chief Technology 2011. This further underlines our commitment to rebuilding Officer Europe at IBM and Chair of the Technology Strategy the armed forces covenant, that unique bond between Board. the armed forces, the Government and the nation. Earlier this year the Prime Minister reappointed five CST members: Professor Dame Janet Finch CBE—Professor of Sociology Nuclear Deterrent Manchester University and ex-Vice-Chancellor of Keele University; Dr Hermann Hauser Hon CBE, FREng—Venture capitalist and co-founder of Amadeus Capital Partners; The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox): As Professor Alan Hughes—Director of the Centre for Business part of his statement on the strategic defence and Research at Cambridge University; security review (SDSR) on 19 October 2010, my right Professor Michael Sterling FREng—Chairman of the Science hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that we had reviewed and Technology Facilities Council and ex-Vice-Chancellor our deterrence requirements and concluded that we of Birmingham University; could meet the requirement for an effective and credible Sir Mark Walport FMedSci FRS—Director of the Wellcome deterrent with a smaller number of nuclear weapons Trust; and over the next few years would reduce the scale of together with four ex officio members: the current deployed capability, incorporating this reduction The President of the Royal Society—Sir Paul Nurse FRS; into plans for the successor submarine. Therefore, we The President of the Royal Academy of Engineering—Lord would reduce the number of warheads on board each Browne FRS FREng; submarine from a maximum of 48 to a maximum of The President of the Academy of Medical Sciences—Sir 40, reduce the number of operational missiles in the John Bell PMedSci FRS Hon FREng; VANGUARD class submarines to no more than eight, The President of the British Academy—Sir Adam Roberts and reduce the number of operational warheads from FBA. fewer than 160 to no more than 120. 51WS Written Ministerial Statements29 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 52WS

I wish to inform the House that the programme for However, in considering who should be appointed to implementing the SDSR warhead reductions has the role, I consulted the Lord Chief Justice and he commenced: at least one of the VANGUARD class recommended Dame Janet. I was delighted to accept ballistic missile submarines (SSBN) now carries a maximum his recommendation. of 40 nuclear warheads. The programme of work to Dame Janet is eminently qualified for the role. She complete these changes across the VANGUARD SSBN has extensive experience of the assessment of damages fleet will be completed within the constraints of the in personal injury litigation. As a former lady justice of deterrent’s operational programme. We currently expect appeal she will continue the robust independence which completion to be made within this Parliament. The her predecessors have brought to the role. As well as my Government do not comment upon the operational full confidence, she will have the confidence of applicants programme and therefore updates on this implementation and their representatives. programme will not be given. I will update the House further once the changes have been completed across Finally, I am extremely grateful to Lord Brennan for the current SSBN fleet and the SDSR commitment to the very high level of service he has provided over the reducing our stock of operationally deployed warheads past 10 years. has been fulfilled. On current plans, our expectation is that the subsequent reduction in our total stockpile to no more than 180 warheads will be completed by the Ministerial Correction mid 2020s. The early commencement of the programme for these reductions in warheads is a significant step and further The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice demonstrates the Government’s commitment to fulfilling (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I refer to the debate following my the UK’s disarmament obligations under the nuclear oral statement on sentencing reform and legal aid, non-proliferation treaty. The Government remain 21 June 2011, Official Report, column 165. committed to maintaining the minimum credible deterrent In my response to the right hon. Member for Delyn necessary to achieve our deterrence objectives of (Mr Hanson), regarding a reduction in foreign national guaranteeing national security. prisoners at column 173, I gave an indicative comparative figure stating that there are now 1,000 fewer FNPs than JUSTICE when the previous Government left office. New Independent Assessor of Compensation for I would like to correct the information I gave. As of Miscarriages of Justice 31 March 2011, there were 10,745 FNPs—622 fewer than on 31 March 2010, when there were 11,367 FNPs. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice As I said in the debate, the Ministry of Justice continues (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I am pleased to announce the to work with the UK Border Agency to remove FNPs at appointment of the right hon. Dame Janet Smith DBE the earliest possible opportunity. as the new independent assessor of miscarriages of In my response to the hon. Member for Easington justice compensation under section 133 of the Criminal (Grahame M. Morris), on the issue of legal aid funding Justice Act 1988. The assessor is appointed under schedule for clinical negligence claims at column 174, I stated 12 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. that 80% of clinical negligence cases are currently The assessor’s role is to assess the amount of undertaken on a no win, no fee basis. compensation to be paid under section 133 once Ministers I would like to correct the information I gave. The have decided that the eligibility criteria are met. Neither precise data I now have, from the NHS Litigation Ministers nor civil servants play any role in the assessment Authority, show that in 2008-09 5,245 claims for clinical of compensation and I am required by section 133 (4) negligence were received by the NHSLA. Of the to accept the award made by the assessor. The assessor 3,993 clinical negligence cases where the type of funding plays no role in deciding whether an applicant is eligible was known, 1,821 (46% of cases where funding type under section 133. was known) were funded by no win, no fee conditional Dame Janet, who retired as an Appeal Court judge in fee agreements, 1,145 (29%) were funded by legal aid, May, replaces Lord Brennan of Bibury QC who has 632 (16%) were self-funded, and 395 (10%) were funded held the position since 27 July 2001 and whose term of by “before the event”legal expenses insurance. I understand office comes to an end on 26 July 2011. Lord Brennan from the NHSLA that the cases where funding type was indicated that he did not wish to be appointed for a not known are unlikely to be CFA-funded. Although further term. Dame Janet will take up her appointment the NHSLA covers clinical negligence cases against on 1 July, which will initially be for two years. NHS bodies in England only, there is no reason to The assessor is an “office holder” rather than a public suggest that the breakdown of funding arrangements appointment so the appointment rules of the Office of for all clinical negligence cases in England and Wales is the Commissioner for Public Appointments (OCPA) significantly different. are not required to be followed. 783W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 784W

deliver a greenhouse gas saving of at least 35%, rising to Written Answers to 50% in 2017 and to 60%, for biofuels from new plants, in 2018. Questions In January this year, as required by the RED, my Department provided a report on the regional level estimates of greenhouse gas emissions arising from Wednesday 29 June 2011 cultivation of biofuels feedstocks in the UK. The report is available at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/environment/renewable-fuels/ TRANSPORT biofuelscultivation/ In January this year a report prepared by a cross- A1: Speed Limits Whitehall group of officials (the Global Food Markets Group) titled “Agricultural price spikes 2007/2008: Causes Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport and policy implications” was published. The report for what reason a 50 mph speed limit has been imposed considered the causes of the 2008 food price spike and via temporary speed limit signs on the A1 southbound concluded that biofuels were not a particularly significant north of Alwalton. [62412] driver, with other factors such as the price of oil and adverse weather conditions being greater contributors. Mike Penning: A temporary 50 mph speed limit has It is archived at: been put in place on the A1 southbound just north of http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/food/security/price.htm Alwalton for a distance of approx one mile. It is necessary Under the RED, the European Commission must to mitigate a risk relating to the integrity of the central monitor and report every two years on the impact of reserve safety fencing which no longer reaches acceptable biofuel policy and increased demand for biofuel on performance standards. social sustainability. This will include reporting on the Biofuels availability of foodstuffs at affordable prices.

Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport First Capital Connect (1) what countries the UK imported biofuel from in the last year for which information is available; [59469] Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) if he will estimate the effect on the level of Transport what representations he has received on the greenhouse gas emissions arising from the production train failure incident involving a First Capital Connect of biofuel in the UK; [59470] service near Kentish Town on the evening of 26 May (3) what assessment he has made of the potential 2011. [61884] effects of biofuel production on (a) food prices and (b) greenhouse gas emissions in the UK; [59471] Norman Baker: I have received one piece of (4) what estimate he has made of the amount of land correspondence and the Department for Transport has expected to be used for biofuel production in the UK in received two pieces of correspondence from members the next five years. [59472] of the public concerning the incident near Kentish Town on 26 May. Norman Baker [holding answer 13 June 2011]: The An investigation is currently underway by the Rail Renewable Fuels Agency’s second annual report to Accident Investigation Branch into the incidents that Parliament on the impacts of the renewable transport led to the failure of the train service. I have asked to see fuels obligation (RTFO) is available at: a copy of their report. http://www.renewablefuelsagency.gov.uk/sites/rfa/files/ Year_Two_RTFO_v2.pdf Maritime and Coastguard Agency: Scotland This report covers the period April 2009 to April 2010 and includes verified data of biofuel supplied in the UK by country of origin and land use, where Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport known, and reports the performance of biofuels supplied what recent estimate he has made of the monetary value in the UK in respect of annual greenhouse gas emissions of each Maritime and Coastguard Agency property in savings. No estimate is made of the amount of land Scotland. [62142] expected to be used for biofuel production in the UK in the next five years. Mike Penning [holding answer 27 June 2011]: The The RTFO unit in the Department for Transport Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) occupies now administers the RTFO. The RTFO unit produce 115 properties and maintains 48 radio sites in Scotland, statistics on biofuels containing unverified data related some of which we own. The total value of these is biofuel performance which are available at: £7.5 million. http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/ This is based on the net book values for properties on biofuels/ our balance sheet as at 31 March 2011 and is based on The renewable energy directive (RED) requires the either a depreciated replacement cost or an existing use UK to ensure that 10% of energy consumed in transport value, which ever is the more appropriate. These values comes from renewable sources by 2020 and that biofuels are updated annually and will differ from market values. used towards this target meet a number of mandatory I have arranged for this information to be placed in sustainability criteria. These include that biofuels must the Libraries of the House. 785W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 786W

Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Affordable Housing Transport if he will include hydrogen in the renewable transport fuels obligation; and if he will make a statement. David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for [62619] Communities and Local Government with reference to the answer to the hon. Member for Westmorland and Norman Baker [holding answer 28 June 2011]: The Lonsdale of 26 February 2008, Official Report, column renewable energy directive (RED) requires member states 885, on affordable housing, how many affordable homes to source 10% of the energy use in transport from were completed in communities of fewer than 3,000 in renewable sources by 2020. While the RED does allow (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [62227] for the use of renewable hydrogen to meet this target, there is not currently a methodology in place for calculating Grant Shapps: The following table shows the number the contribution of hydrogen from renewable sources. of affordable homes completed in rural areas with a However, the directive does require the European population of less than 3,000 through the Homes and Commission to come forward with a proposal for such Communities Agency’s National Affordable Housing a method by 31 December 2011. Programme in 2008-09 and 2009-10: The renewable transport fuel obligation (RTFO) requires fossil fuel suppliers to supply a certain percentage of the Completion Low cost home total volume of fuel they supply as biofuel. We are year Social rent ownership Total currently considering responses to our “Consultation 2008-09 1,726 689 2,415 on the implementation of the transport elements of the 2009-10 2,205 671 2,876 Renewable Energy Directive” and intend to publish a Source: summary of responses to that public consultation shortly. Homes and Communities Agency Investment Management System In that consultation paper we did not propose any amendment to the RTFO to allow renewable hydrogen Affordable Housing: Peterborough to be eligible for renewable transport fuel certificates but proposed to keep this issue under review as the Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for European Commission develops a methodology to account Communities and Local Government if he will assess for renewable hydrogen. the effects of the FirstBuy scheme on the private sector housing market in Peterborough constituency; and if he Trade Unions will make a statement. [61775]

John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Andrew Stunell: FirstBuy is designed to maintain pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Esher capacity in the housebuilding industry in the short-term and Walton of 17 June 2011, Official Report, column while assisting nearly 10,500 first time buyers, who are 1024W,on trade unions, how many people were employed struggling with a deposit, to realise their home ownership in (a) his Department, (b) the Driver and Vehicle aspirations. Licensing Agency, (c) the Driving Standards Agency, The scheme will help maintain confidence in the (d) the Government Car and Despatch Agency, (e) the housing market as house builders will be able to build Highways Agency, (f) the Maritime and Coastguard new homes knowing that first time buyers will be able to Agency, (g) the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency purchase these properties. This confidence will attract and (h) the Vehicles Certification Agency in 2010-11; further investment in house building. and what proportion of the workforce in each case were (i) full-time and (ii) part-time trade union representatives. An individual assessment of the effects of FirstBuy [62664] on specific local housing markets has not been undertaken. However, identified sites which met local authority priorities Norman Baker [holding answer 28 June 2011]: The scored more highly when developer offers were considered number of those employed within the central Department by the Homes and Communities Agency. and its seven Executive agencies and the proportion of the work force that were (i) full-time and (ii) part-time Affordable Housing: Wirral trade union representatives are given in the following table: David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government with reference to Proportion of Proportion of the answer to the hon. Member for Wirral South of full-time part-time 1 April 2008, Official Report, column 491W,on affordable Headcount representatives representatives housing: Wirral South, how many new affordable homes 2010-11 (percentage) (percentage) were provided in (a) 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10; and how DFT 2,160 0.14 0.79 many of those were for social rent in each year. [62434] MCA 1,147 0.09 3.23 VCA 155 0.00 4.52 Andrew Stunell: Statistics on the number of additional HA 3,907 0.05 2.38 affordable homes delivered in each local authority can DSA 2,607 0.15 173 be found on the Department for Communities and VOSA 2,294 0.13 1.35 Local Government’s website at: DVLA 6,582 0.12 0.56 http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ GCDA 285 0.00 2.46 housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/ affordablehousingsupply/livetables/ 787W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 788W

The following table presents figures for total additional Robert Neill: The current European regional development supply (new build and acquisitions) of affordable housing fund teams in the regional development agencies are for Wirral local authority: transferring to my Department to ensure that existing experience and knowledge is not lost. These teams will 2008-09 2009-10 continue to manage the day to day operation of the fund and a process is in place to ensure that payments Total additional 80 190 affordable homes to projects can be made from DCLG from 1 July. Of which: These new arrangements will also allow the Government For social rent 60 140 to address better the financial irregularities in the Note: administration of the programme that we have inherited Figures are rounded to nearest 10. from the last Government—as outlined in my Department’s Source: press release of 7 July 2010. DCLG official statistics on gross additional affordable supply (Live Table 1006 and 1008), compiled from HCA and other data sources. Fair Play Campaign Audit Commission Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for and Local Government what recent (a) discussions he Communities and Local Government pursuant to the has had with and (b) representations he has received answer of 3 May 2011, Official Report, column 663W, from the Fair Play Campaign; what issues were discussed; on the Audit Commission, what the business case was what response he gave to the representations; and if he for the expenditure by the Commission of the Board on will make a statement. [62004] a dinner at Bentley’s Seafood Restaurant. [61765] Andrew Stunell: The Secretary of State for Communities Robert Neill: This is an operational matter for the and Local Government, the right hon. Member for Audit Commission and I have asked the chief executive Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles) and I have not met of the Audit Commission to respond to my hon. Friend or had any direct discussions or received any representations direct. from the Fair Play Campaign Group but we meet regularly with the Board of Deputies of British Jews The expenditure was incurred under the last and the Jewish Leadership Council under whose auspices Administration. Ministers in this Government do not the campaign operates. consider such practices to be a good use of taxpayers’ money. Housing Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 29 June 2011: The Audit Commission Board held dinners on the evening David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for before some Board meetings, to allow Commissioners a slightly Communities and Local Government with reference to less formal opportunity for discussion and debate. A review of the Board’s effectiveness, required under our Corporate Governance the answer to the hon. Member for Crosby of 20 May Framework, confirmed that these were valuable and should continue. 2008, Official Report, column 266W, on housing, what On occasion, executive staff, and DCLG colleagues, also attended. the change in the number of homeowners was in (a) The dinner at Bentley’s Seafood Restaurant, on 3 March 2010, 2008-09 and (b) 2009-10. [62435] was one such dinner. Grant Shapps: The Department for Communities and Eco-towns Local Government’s English Housing Survey estimates that in 2009-10 there were 14,525,000 owner-occupied David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for households in England, down by 97,000 from 2008-09 Communities and Local Government with reference to when there were 14,621,000. the answer to the right hon. Member for Leicester East These figures, together with other results from the of 18 February 2008, Official Report, column 53W, on 2009-10 English Housing Survey can be found in the eco-towns, how many homes were built in eco-towns up latest Headline Report on the Department for Communities to April 2010; and what proportion of dwellings were and Local Government website at the following link. (a) affordable housing, (b) social rent and (c) low-cost http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ home ownership. [62228] statistics/ehs200910headlinereport

Grant Shapps: There were no homes built before Housing: Sales April 2010 in eco-towns. In my statement of 17 May 2011, Official Report, columns 7-9WS, I set out our Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for commitment to zero carbon development, and from Communities and Local Government if he will estimate 2016 all new homes going through the planning system the proportion of home sales (a) to first-time buyers will be required to be built to a zero carbon standard, and (b) all buyers in (i) the UK, (ii) England and (iii) and all new non-domestic buildings from 2019. each region that were made to people who were not resident in the UK in the last 12 months for which EU Grants and Loans figures are available. [61717]

Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: The Council of Mortgage Lenders Communities and Local Government what arrangements publish data on the number of first time buyers buying his Department has made to process European regional a home with a mortgage in the UK, but not for geographies development fund expenditure from 1 July 2011. [60266] below national level. 789W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 790W

The latest data can be found at: Renewable Energy: Planning Permission http://www.cml.org.uk/cml/media/press/2938 The Department is not aware of figures which estimate Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for the residential property sales made to people who are Communities and Local Government (1) what his policy not resident in the UK. is on permitted development rights for air source heat pumps; [62742] Mayors (2) what his policy is on permitted development rights for onshore wind turbines. [62743] Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government from which cities Robert Neill: My Department is committed to amending or towns, other than the 12 largest English cities in the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted England, his Department has received expressions of Development) Order 1995 to introduce permitted interest in introducing directly-elected mayors. [56669] development rights for air source heat pumps and onshore wind turbines on domestic properties, and to report to Robert Neill: We have not invited expressions of Parliament on doing the same for non-domestic premises, interest from other local authorities. as part of our agenda to support renewable energy and low carbon technologies. Non-domestic Rates: Empty Property

Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for SCOTLAND Communities and Local Government what the contribution to the Exchequer from the empty property rate regime Capita was in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) 2010-11; and what estimate he has made of the contribution to the Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Exchequer in each of the next five years. [61562] Scotland how many contracts his Department has awarded to Capita since May 2010; and what the (a) individual Robert Neill: Data on the national non-domestic monetary value and (b) net worth was of those contracts. rates revenue raised from empty properties are not held [62718] centrally. Data on the amount of empty property relief granted David Mundell: The Scotland Office has not awarded in 2008-09 and 2009-10 and the amount forecast to be any contracts to Capita since May 2010. granted in 2010-11 and 2011-12 are as follows: Children: Maintenance Table 1: Empty property rate relief since 2008-09 £ million Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Empty property relief Scotland whether he has discussed the potential effects in Scotland of proposals to change child support schemes 2008-09 487.0 with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. [62820] 2009-10 1,117.9 Michael Moore: Across Government we are working 2010-11(B) 907.8 to ensure that the Scottish Government are consulted as appropriate.

2011-12(B) 757.3 Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Blank rows indicate discontinuity. Scotland what discussions he has had with (a) the Note: Data are as reported to Communities and Local Government by all Scottish Government, (b) the Convention of Scottish billing authorities in England on the annual national non-domestic local authorities and (c) civic society organisations in rates returns. Scotland on proposals to change child support schemes; Source: on what dates such discussions took place; and whether Data for 2008-09 to 2009-10 are outturn figures; (B) those for 2010-11 it took place orally or in writing in each case. [62821] and 2011-12 are budget estimates. I also refer my hon. Friend to my answer of 8 February Michael Moore: The Department for Work and Pensions 2011, Official Report column 178W. leads on this matter, and received a number of responses Public Order Offences: Bye Laws from a range of Scottish organisations during its recent Green paper consultation which have been shared with the Scotland Office. Across Government we will continue Mr Love: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities to work with the Scottish Government to take forward and Local Government what representations he has the Government’s plans for reform of child maintenance received from local authorities on the introduction of a in Britain. byelaw relating to spitting in public spaces; what consideration he has given to such representations; and Departmental Billing if he will make a statement. [62334] Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland Robert Neill: While the Department has recently received how many invoices received by his Department have correspondence on this issue, the Department has not been paid (a) on time and (b) late in each month since received any byelaw applications from local authorities May 2010; and what the monetary value is of the in the last three years relating to spitting. invoices paid late. [62481] 791W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 792W

David Mundell: The Scotland Office aims to pay (5) whether the Independent Parliamentary Standards invoices within five days of receipt. During the period Authority has made an assessment of the effects of its 1 May 2010 to 31 May 2011, the following targets were schemes on the mental health and well-being of hon. met: Members. [62448]

Paid within five days Mr Charles Walker: It has not been possible to provide Monetary a response to these questions by the named day. Answers Number of value of late will be provided as soon as possible. invoices payments Number Percentage paid late (£) Operating Costs May 2010 80 94.1 5 1,604.64 June 2010 102 99 1 285.52 Nadhim Zahawi: To ask the hon. Member for July 2010 104 98.1 2 63.18 Broxbourne, representing the Speaker’s Committee for August 87 100 0 0 the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, 2010 whether the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent September 85 98.8 1 528.75 2010 Parliamentary Standards Authority has reached a decision October 88 100 0 0 on the Authority’s proposed estimate for 2011-12; and 2010 if he will make a statement. [62240] November 87 98.9 1 £244.40 2010 Mr Charles Walker: The Speaker’s Committee for the December 122 98.4 2 1,581.16 Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority completed 2010 its consideration of IPSA’s draft estimate 2011-12 on January 74 98.7 1 900 22 June 2011. 2011 The Committee was not satisfied that the estimate February 67 100 0 0 2011 was consistent with the efficient and cost-effective discharge by IPSA of its functions. The Committee accordingly March 129 99.2 1 4,582.67 2011 modified the estimate, as required by statute, to achieve April 2011 93 100 0 0 that consistency through the creation of an Unallocated May 2011 57 98.3 1 60 Provision. The modified estimate, together with a statement by However, 100% of invoices received during this period the Committee under schedule 1 to the Parliamentary were paid within the contractual 30-day term. Standards Act 2009 (HC 1337) was laid before the House on 23 June 2011.

Telephone Tapping INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE Helen Jones: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, Members: Allowances representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, what the policy of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is Adam Afriyie: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, on the recording of telephone calls. [60935] representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, (1) what assessment Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary has made of the effectiveness of its schemes in restoring Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. public confidence and trust in (a) hon. Members first elected in May 2010, (b) other hon. Members and (c) Letter from Scott Woolveridge, dated June 2011: Parliament; [62444] As acting Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary (2) whether the Independent Parliamentary Standards Question asking what the policy is of the Independent Parliamentary Authority has made an assessment of the extent to Standards Authority on the recording of telephone calls. which hon. Members are funding their parliamentary Our policy is that we reserve the right to record incoming and duties from personal resources; [62445] outgoing telephone calls for training and quality purposes. This (3) what proportion of the savings to the public purse policy is stated on our website. achieved by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in its first 10 months of operation is attributable Helen Jones: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, to (a) resettlement grants, (b) parliamentary pensions, representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent (c) winding-up allowances and (d) other exceptional Parliamentary Standards Authority, for how long the payments made to retiring hon. Members in the final Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority retains year of the previous House of Commons scheme; recordings of telephone calls; who is authorised to [62446] listen to such recordings; and what arrangements are in (4) what estimate the Independent Parliamentary place for destroying the recordings. [60936] Standards Authority has made of the likely level of savings to the public purse it will achieve in respect of Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls the salaries, staffing and expenses budgets of hon. Members within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary in 2011-12 compared to 2010-11; [62447] Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. 793W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 794W

Letter from Scott Woolveridge, dated June 2011: Departmental Redundancy As acting Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Question asking for how long the Independent Parliamentary and Pensions what recent estimate his Department has Standards Authority retains recordings of telephone calls; who is authorised to listen to such recordings; and what arrangements made of the cost to the public purse of redundancies in are in place for destroying the recordings. its non-departmental bodies (a) in 2011-12 and (b) Telephone voice recordings are subject to IPSA’s Information over the comprehensive spending review period. [61726] Management records retention and disposition schedules which specify the period for which they are held. The current policy Chris Grayling: The potential costs of staff early states that electronic files, which cover telephone recordings, will releases in the Department’s businesses and non- be retained for a period of six years. When the agreed retention departmental public bodies will mainly be funded centrally period expires, electronic files will be reviewed and either retained and within the limits of the spending review settlement. for a further period, if still required for business purposes, or Specific requirements and potential costs for staff early destroyed. The Information Management policy is currently under review and the retention period may change. releases are subject to review and are part of the departmental planning process. The following members of IPSA’s staff are authorised to listen to telephone voice recordings in order both to monitor quality As part of the approvals process all staff early releases standards and to identify training needs: are supported by business cases to ensure efficient work the Deputy Director of Operations; force management, cost control and value for money. the two Team Leaders of the Information Team; and The Department has not made any separate provision the Head of Assurance and Review. to fund staff early releases from non-departmental public Additionally, members of IPSA’s senior management can bodies. However, some arm’s length bodies including request access to specific voice recordings if there is a business those in receipt of grant in aid funding will have separate requirement for them to do so. arrangements for meeting from their own budgets, the Destruction of voice recordings will be conducted using either cost of any early releases. secure data erasure using a CESG’s Assisted Products Service (CAPS) product if the media is to be disposed of, or by reformatting and overwriting in accordance with the HMG Base Line Standard Disability Living Allowance: Care Homes if the media is to be reused. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE likely effects of his proposed changes to the payment of mobility allowance on transport services paid for and Electoral Register used communally by groups living in residential homes. [62710] Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Maria Miller: We have made it clear that we will not Electoral Commission, pursuant to the answer of remove the DLA mobility component from people in 6 September 2010, Official Report, columns 304-5W, on residential care from October 2012 and that we would the electoral register, what assessment has been made of review the existing evidence and gather more to enable the progress of the Electoral Commission in improving us to determine the extent to which there are overlaps in its reporting process on electoral registration; and if he provision for mobility needs of people in residential will make a statement. [61641] care homes. Mr Streeter: The Comptroller and Auditor General Any changes to the mobility component for people reported in March 2011 on the Electoral Commission’s living in care homes will be made as part of the wider spending to support the running of elections, including reform of disability living allowance and its replacement registration. The report was published as the Committee’s with personal independence payment in 2013. We will First Report 2011, “Reports by the Comptroller and ensure that when we introduce personal independence Auditor General”, HC 916 (2010-12). It is available via payment from April 2013 it treats disabled people fairly, the Committee’s webpage: regardless of their place of residence; reducing overlaps www.parliament.uk/scec of public spending, not disabled people’s ability to get out and about.

WORK AND PENSIONS Employment and Support Allowance: Work Capability Assessment Capita

Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions how many contracts his Department and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2011, has awarded to Capita since May 2010; and what the Official Report, column 824W, on Work Capability (a) monetary value and (b) net worth was of each Assessment: mental health, what estimate he has made contract. [62714] of the average cost of a tribunal appeal against a fitness to work decision for a new employment and support Chris Grayling: The Department has awarded one allowance claim where the primary condition was contract to Capita Consulting for the Extending Working classed as a mental or behavioural disorder in the latest Life—National Guidance Initiative since May 2010. period for which figures are available. [62761] The total contract value is £1.5 million over a two year period. Mr Djanogly: I have been asked to reply. 795W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 796W

The average cost for Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Chris Grayling: HSE has a publicly-accessible procedure Service (formerly the Tribunals Service) of a completed that states how inspectors conduct and manage appeal in the First-tier Tribunal—Social Security and investigations of work-related incidents. Following initial Child Support based on national 2009-10 data is £282. inquiries into the incident to Mr Flavell, a decision was Benefit specific calculations are not available because taken, in line with the procedure, not to investigate. of the high degree of apportionment of costs which There are no wider policy implications of this decision. would be required. Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2011, Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 824W, on Work Capability Work and Pensions whether his Department has been Assessment: mental health, what steps his Department monitoring the number of fit notes issued by GPs; and is taking to improve the accuracy of fit for work if he will assess trends in the number of such notes decisions for employment and support allowance being issued. [56154] claims where the primary condition is classified as a mental or behavioural disorder; and if he will make a Chris Grayling: There is no central monitoring of the statement. [62762] number of Statements of Fitness for Work (fit notes) issued by GPs. This is due to practical considerations as Chris Grayling: The Work Capability Assessment the form is entirely paper based. (WCA) was developed in consultation with medical and The fit note is undergoing a formal evaluation which other experts alongside specialist disability groups. A includes a quantitative study exploring trends in the department led review of the Work Capability Assessment issuance of fit notes in a sample of GPs. This combined recommended a number of changes to the WCA. These with analysis of trends in general sickness absence and came into force on 28 March 2011 and are expected to social security data as well as qualitative studies with more accurately assess mental, intellectual and cognitive samples of GPs, employers and employees will provide function with a corresponding small increase in support a fuller picture of the impact of fit notes. group numbers. Recognising that particular concerns have been raised in relation to how the WCA works for people with PRIME MINISTER mental health conditions, Professor Harrington has asked leading charities, including Mind, Mencap and Service Chiefs the National Autistic Society, to make recommendations to refine the mental, intellectual and cognitive descriptors used in the WCA as part of his second independent Nicholas Soames: To ask the Prime Minister when he review. last met the (1) Chief of the Air Staff; and what matters were discussed; [61935] Additionally, in response to one of Professor Harrington’s recommendations in his first review, we (2) Service Chiefs together; and what matters were have introduced mental, cognitive and intellectual discussed. [61945] ’champions’ into Atos assessment centres to spread best practise in these areas. We are also empowering and The Prime Minister: I have regular meetings and improving training for Jobcentre Plus decision makers discussions with ministerial colleagues and others including to put them back at the heart of this system. the service chiefs. We will continue to review and refine the assessment in the light of experience of its use in practice, as part of a process of continuous improvement. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

Jobseeker’s Allowance: Hearing Impairment Aviation

Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for and Pensions how many people in (a) the United Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Kingdom and (b) London who are registered as deaf Department has taken to mitigate the effects of are claiming jobseeker’s allowance. [52135] aviation on local air quality. [60237]

Chris Grayling: The information requested is not Richard Benyon: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer available. given on 22 June 2011, Official Report, column 294W, by the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Teresa Villiers). RAF Honington: Accidents Departmental Public Bodies Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will assess the implications for Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for the policies of the Health and Safety Executive of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate time taken to investigate the accident sustained by she has made of the (a) number of and (b) budget for Mr Philip Flavell while working at RAF Honington on the public bodies outlined in the Natural Environment 15 November 2006. [62676] White Paper; and if she will make a statement. [62595] 797W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 798W

Richard Benyon: The Natural Environment White No water company restrictions are currently in place Paper (NEWP) does not lead to the creation of any new and only one water company is warning customers that public bodies or NDPBs. Instead, it establishes a small it may need to introduce restrictions if the dry weather number of time-limited activities which bring together returns. expertise from business, civil society and the wider When water is in short supply the statutory framework sector. These include the Peat Task Force, the business-led for managing droughts is designed to protect the public Ecosystems Markets Task Force and the Green water supply for essential domestic uses. Temporary Infrastructure Partnership. restrictions on non essential uses of water can help These activities will engage key stakeholders to identify defer or avoid the need for more stringent demand innovative and effective solutions to their respective restrictions on customers and businesses and help to challenges. In addition, the NEWP also announced the protect the environment. In the event of the need for creation of a Natural Capital Committee to help put restrictions, gardeners may continue to use hand held the value of nature at the heart of the Government’s containers to water their gardens or use water that is economic planning. This too will bring together a small not from the public supply, for example recycled or number of leading experts in their fields to provide stored rain water. independent advice to Government. To enable these activities to function, they will be supported with a small amount of resource, within the Farmers: Income normal course of business, and in a way that achieves best value for money. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Droughts Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate her Department has made of the average income of (a) dairy farmers, (b) hill farmers, (c) livestock farmers Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for and (d) arable farmers in each of the last 10 years. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) if she will [62771] take steps to ensure that gardeners and garden centres are not adversely affected by the recent shortfall of Mr Paice [holding answer 28 June 2011]: Farm Business rain; [62320] Income has been the preferred measure of income since (2) if she will take steps to mitigate the potential 2003-04. The estimated Farm Business Income1 by farm negative effects on garden centres and the gardening type in each of the last seven years is shown in table 1. industry of any continued lack of rainfall in the summer Table 2 shows Net Farm Income2 for each of the last of 2011. [62321] 10 years. 1 Farm Business Income represents the financial return to all Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State for Environment, unpaid labour (farmers and spouses, non-principal partners and Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the directors and their spouses and family workers) and on all their Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), has had a number capital invested in the farm business, including land and buildings. of meetings with the sectors most affected by the dry 2 Net Farm Income is defined as the return to the principal farmer weather, including representatives of the Horticultural and spouse alone for their manual and managerial labour and on Trades Association, to consider actions that can be the tenant type-capital of the business, An imputed rent is deducted taken to mitigate the impacts of the drought. for owner-occupied farms as is a charge for other unpaid labour.

Table 1: Farm Business Income Average £ per farm At current prices 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Cereals 49,800 29,200 29,000 45,900 73,400 69,700 46,000 General Cropping 65,900 42,400 36,900 62,200 81,000 96,000 66,000 Dairy 30,500 33,100 33,600 30,800 55,100 69,400 56,100 Cattle and Sheep 12,100 9,300 9,400 11,400 12,400 18,500 22,000 (Lowland) Cattle and Sheep 17,400 16,200 15,800 10,500 10,400 17,100 22,200 (LFA) Specialist Pigs 36,900 25,900 30,300 24,500 6,300 59,100 71,600 Specialist Poultry 48,800 86,000 93,100 100,600 139,200 47,700 66,300 Mixed 31,100 23,900 25,800 27,200 37,300 38,600 39,800 Source: Farm Business Survey, England Table 2: Net Farm Income Average £ per farm At current prices 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Cereals 7,500 5,900 13,600 36,400 15,600 14,100 31,300 57,100 52,700 27,900 General 18,600 17,500 15,500 56,800 32,200 26,700 54,000 64,700 82,000 48,900 cropping Dairy 14,000 30,900 18,200 23,600 26,400 27,100 22,900 46,700 59,200 40,500 799W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 800W

Table 2: Net Farm Income Average £ per farm At current prices 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Cattle and -400 -100 6,600 7,100 5,400 5,300 6,800 6,500 12,200 14,500 Sheep (Lowland) Cattle and 5,900 7,400 17,400 15,000 13,400 11,800 6,100 5,000 11,900 15,600 Sheep (LFA) Specialist 42,100 21,600 25,700 34,400 25,100 29,000 25,000 12,400 53,500 73,000 pigs Specialist 30,300 26,700 97,100 53,200 89,700 97,500 102,600 141,400 49,800 68,900 poultry Mixed 7,600 4,500 12,100 24,400 16,400 17,400 17,600 27,600 28,600 26,300 Note: The Farm Business Survey sample covers businesses with a Standard Labour Requirement (SLR) of at least 0.5, ie a size considered sufficient to occupy a farmer for at least half their time. Source: Farm Business Survey, England

Land DEFRA has a welfare code for rabbits which provides good husbandry advice, which producers have by law to Dr Wollaston: To ask the Secretary of State for be familiar with and have access to. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her Department has assessed the effectiveness of her Water Supply: Reservoirs Department’s best and most versatile land policy. [62165] Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what the total Mr Paice: We have not recently assessed the effectiveness, reservoir capacity is of water companies in England of the best and most versatile land policy, but my and Wales; [62338] Department has commissioned a project on the policy’s (2) what the net change in the total reservoir capacity application by planning authorities. This will assess the of water companies in England and Wales has been spatial location and extent of best and most versatile since 1989-90. [62339] agricultural that has been built on and/or developed for non-agricultural purposes, in the last decade; and will Richard Benyon [holding answer 28 June 2011]: The evaluate the information and processes used by planners total reservoir capacity of water companies in England to assess BMV land issues. The report is due to be and Wales is approximately 2,346,590,305 cubic metres. published by late summer. This figure includes reservoirs that fall under the Reservoirs Act 1975 (large raised reservoirs with a capacity of Rabbits: Animal Welfare 25,000 m3 or more above natural ground level). Figures for 1989-90 are not available. Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will consider the merits of introducing a ban on battery cages for factory-farmed rabbits. [62411] JUSTICE Mr Paice: The welfare of farmed rabbits is already Capita provided for by way of the general provisions of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which make it an offence to cause suffering to an animal. The Act also contains a Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for duty of care to animals. This means that anyone responsible Justice how many contracts his Department has awarded for an animal must take reasonable steps to ensure the to Capita since May 2010; and what the (a) individual animal’s welfare needs are met. In addition, the Welfare monetary value and (b) net worth was of those contracts. of Farmed Animals (England) Regulations 2007 lays [62720] down requirements in respect of general welfare, inspection, housing and feeding for all farm animals and includes a Mr Kenneth Clarke: Since May 2010 my Department section specifically to protect the welfare of rabbits. has awarded 220 contracts to Capita. Of these, 219 are in the form of purchase orders raised as a consequence One of the key welfare concerns associated with of my Department’s decision to utilise the Department rabbit farming is space allowance and existing legislation of Works and Pensions (DWP) CIPHER agreement for covers this. It is a requirement that all rabbits must be the purchase of interim contractors in line with the kept in hutches or cages of sufficient size to allow the Cabinet Office Efficiency and Reform Group (ERG) rabbits to move around and to feed and drink without directive. difficulty and to allow them all to lie on their sides at the same time; and of sufficient height to allow the rabbits The individual monetary value of contracts awarded to sit upright on all four feet without their ears touching is contained in the following table. the top of the hutch or cage. The net worth of those contracts was £15,052,080.51. 801W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 802W

Table 1 Table 1 £ £

Individual monetary value of 83,980.00 131,087.04 contracts awarded to Capita 138,750.00 106,020.00 99,750.00 79,900.00 85,976.00 104,400.00 54,944.84 113,740.00 123,657.50 18,984.00 117,875.00 46,305.00 67,244.00 36,687.00 27,994.24 20,055.92 57,717.95 17,516.80 103,544.31 79,936.50 30,340.75 57,560.00 58,033.72 57,000.00 120,030.50 57,000.00 84,754.53 7,632.00 55,699.69 38,522.00 52,000.00 64,491.00 775,875.00 19,690.00 74,031.25 82,261.34 8,085.00 198,118.40 103,297.50 117,221.04 42,243.00 115,689.60 43,167.30 112,833.20 106,095.15 118,496.12 97,342.00 244,573.44 100,032.50 179,944.00 57,515.70 165,602.00 19,427.00 64,886.25 110,678.00 41,505.75 43,337.05 63,117.16 48,750.00 57,378.75 130,422.00 63,117.16 53,950.00 130,822.90 39,934.00 71,508.62 55,654.18 64,046.26 69,335.00 68,854.50 51,294.00 26,740.00 49,667.50 111,700.00 130,780.00 80,160.00 63,326.00 109,250.00 87,199.94 92,700.00 73,743.30 106,702.08 13,000.00 105,000.00 44,452.00 73,920.00 44,452.00 89,891.00 92,700.00 76,920.00 51,082.45 104,700.00 98,495.00 70,240.00 30,127.50 144,214.00 52,392.88 128,875.00 63,674.84 128,875.00 44,687.00 122,744.00 79,670.50 803W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 804W

Table 1 Table 1 £ £

58,125.70 59,053.50 84,291.63 50,614.20 26,545.80 55,179.28 106,252.80 52,938.01 49,018.60 50,306.26 21,379.44 18,369.00 81,493.80 55,179.28 93,730.00 37,345.25 32,842.80 60,512.50 45,793.80 41,886.49 67,750.95 26,549.55 13,000.00 55,080.00 21,750.00 94,385.01 18,270.00 60,687.20 76,891.00 24,453.00 103,387.00 180,452.60 41,338.48 134,817.59 87,704.50 63,117.16 26,545.80 56,950.34 52,650.00 60,757.64 67,684.80 16,530.00 45,056.05 24,774.75 98,562.58 71,107.26 41,338.48 57,808.24 46,998.90 53,625.00 75,076.50 25,740.00 22,562.60 30,201.60 46,538.80 16,087.50 46,823.80 79,150.50 42,767.53 57,352.17 58,739.34 57,845.00 80,934.23 58,686.72 44,246.80 48,053.65 61,349.00 68,323.75 81,733.20 54,917.01 42,738.00 36,036.48 15,656.00 19,821.98 15,656.00 18,133.01 9,293.58 48,732.81 87,704.50 81,836.76 33,660.00 8,000.00 28,400.00 58,916.00 2,816.00 74,778.00 6,240.00 41,749.50 70,200.73 56,196.00 98,943.75 9,375.00 27,037.50 38,243.76 25,930.25 60,982.34 40,594.08 76,581.51 24,360.75 76,983.73 47,799.91 50,198.01 60,516.97 38,342.20 84,187.50 133,536.00 805W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 806W

Table 1 1 Figures for 2010 are provisional. Revised figures for 2010 are due £ to be published on 30 June, 2011. Notes: 84,298.50 1. Figures presented are for England and Wales only. 2. Data does not include applications made in family proceedings 93,520.98 courts. The table presents data for county courts and High Courts 92,534.65 only. 3. Figures relate to the number of applications or petitions made. In 63,705.96 some areas of family law, such as ancillary relief and domestic 39,146.25 violence, more than one application can be made for each case. 8,853.21 4. Matrimonial petitions data is the sum of petitions for dissolution, nullity and judicial separation. 52,498.43 5. Totals for ancillary relief disposals are the sum of disposals for 19,063.80 applications which were uncontested, initially contested, subsequently consented and contested. 18,924.00 6. Domestic violence data is the sum of applications for non- molestation and occupation; and do not include applications for arrest warrants. A non-molestation order prevents the applicant and/or any relevant children from being molested by someone who Courts: Hitchin has previously been violent towards them. An occupation order restricts the right of a violent partner to enter or live in a shared home. Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 7. Forced Marriage Protection Orders were introduced by the Forced pursuant to the answer of 21 June 2011, Official Report, Marriage (Civil Protection) Act on 25 November 2008. column 173W, on courts, what timetable has been set Source: for the closure of Hitchin county court and the transfer HMCTS FamilyMan system and summary returns of cases elsewhere; and if he will make a statement. [63005] Table 2: Public and Private Law applications made in all tiers of court, England and Wales, 2009 and 2010 Mr Djanogly: A schedule of the proposed dates for 2009 12010 court closures and information on the transfer of work Public Law: Total 25,810 24,020 can be found on the HM Courts and Tribunals Service applications made website at: PrivateLaw:Total 137,480 122,330 http://www.justice.gov.uk/about/hmcts/courts.htm applications made The closure of Hitchin county court takes place over 1 Figures for 2010 are provisional. Revised figures for 2010 are due the weekend of 2 and 3 July. to be published on 30 June, 2011. Notes: 1. Figures presented are for England and Wales only. 2. Figures relate to the number of children subject to each Family Proceedings application. If an application is made for two children in one family, the case will be counted twice. 3. All tiers of court are represented in the answer; specifically the Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice family proceedings court, county court and High Court. how many families appeared in family court proceedings 4. Public Law refers to Children Act 1989 cases where there are child in (a) 2009 and (b) 2010. [62707] welfare issues and a local authority, or an authorised person, is stepping in to protect the child and ensure they get the care they need. Mr Djanogly: Table 1 shows the total number of 5. Private Law refers to Children Act 1989 cases where two or more applications made in the county courts and High Court parties are trying to resolve a private dispute. This is commonly of England and Wales relating to divorce, domestic where parents have split up and there is a disagreement about violence and forced marriage protection orders in 2009 contact with, or residence of, their children. 6. Private law refers to section 8 applications for residence, contact, and 2010; as well as the number of ancillary relief specific issue and prohibited steps; and parental responsibility applications dealt with. orders, financial applications and special guardianship orders. Table 2 shows the number of children involved in 7. Public law refers to section 8 applications for residence, contact, public and private law applications made at family specific issue and prohibited steps; and parental responsibility orders, special guardianship orders, recovery orders, emergency proceedings courts, county and High Courts in 2009 protection orders, emergency protection (extension), emergency and 2010. protection (discharge), child assessment, education supervision, care It is not possible to determine how many families and supervision orders, care discharge, supervision discharge, secure accommodation, care contact and authority to refuse contact with a these cases relate to except through the inspection of child. individual case files at disproportionate cost. 8. Private Law applications exclude adoptions. Table 1: Number of county court and high court applications or orders Source: made in selected family cases, England and Wales, 2009 and 2010 HMCTS FamilyMan system and summary returns 2009 12010 Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Matrimonial 132,801 134,050 proceedings: Total how many (a) independent social workers and (b) petitions filed other experts received payment for appearing in family Ancillary relief: Total 79,883 79,027 court proceedings in (i) 2009 and (ii) 2010. [62709] disposal of applications Domestic violence: Total 26,027 22,681 applications made Mr Djanogly: The information requested on how Forced marriage 96 110 many independent social workers and other experts protection orders: received payment for appearing in family proceedings is Applications made not held by Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service. 807W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 808W

However the following information on the number of Administration (near cash) independent social workers appointed in care cases for (£ million) the last two years is shown as follows. CEO/director general 3.691 2009 2010 Finance 7.551 Commissioning and commercial 39.163 Family proceedings 307 316 Human resources 44.672 courts (magistrates) ICT/NOMIS 67.623 County courts 138 156 Central funds -30.977 Note: 1. The data source is HMCS Performance Database (OPT). 201.020 2. This data was subject to the minimum data quality checks and is Notes: used for internal management information purposes only. 1. Administration budgets cover the costs of all National Offender No information is held about the payment of experts Management Service (NOMS) administration. NOMS administration on a central database. Details of payment may be held budgets broadly include the provision of a corporate management and governance framework, policy setting, legislative reporting and on some individual court files, but will not necessarily associated back office support services. be present if the experts were funded privately, nor will 2. The central funds figure comprises: unidentified savings requirement; experts fees always be itemised separately on the costs income from YouthJustice Board in respect of recharge of headquarters statements concerning legal aid funding that are submitted overheads; and funds held pending transfer to other Governments to the courts. Providing the information, where held, Departments in supplementary estimate. from court files could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Offenders: Employment National Offender Management Service: Operating Costs John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether private sector providers will be required Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for to conduct risk assessments on offenders placed on Justice what estimate he has made of the administrative unpaid work. [63057] and management costs, including staff, of each directorate of the National Offender Management Service in the Mr Blunt: The contract specification for unpaid work latest period for which figures are available [62872] and the operating manual will apply to all providers, including potential providers from the private sector. Mr Blunt: The following table provides the latest Both require that risk assessments are undertaken using estimated budget costs of administrative and management, the NOMS prescribed risk assessment tool eOASys including staff, of each directorate in the National (Electronic Offender Assessment System). Offender Management Service’s (NOMS) for financial year 2011-12. Prison Sentences: Wales Administration (near cash) (£ million) Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many custodial sentences of less than six months Operations—public prisons 1.068 were handed down for (a) offenders of each sex and Operations—regions 0.000 (b) each type of offence by courts in North Wales in Operations—central 24.199 the last year for which figures are available. [62683] Operations—probation 0.000 Operations—private prisons 0.000 Mr Blunt: The number of persons sentenced to immediate National operational services 41.715 custody of less than six months by sex and type of offence, by courts used by North Wales police in 2010 High security 2.315 can be viewed in the table.

Persons sentenced to an immediate custody of less than 6 months, by sex and type of offence, by courts used by North Wales police, 20101, 2, 3 Violence Theft and against the handling stolen Fraud and Court & Sex person Sexual offences Burglary Robbery goods forgery

Mold4 Males 5 1 2 0 10 8 Females 0 0 0022

Wrexham Maelor Males 6 1 7 0 62 2 Females 1 0 0060

Flintshire Males 3 0 0 0 25 0 Females 0 0 0030 809W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 810W

Persons sentenced to an immediate custody of less than 6 months, by sex and type of offence, by courts used by North Wales police, 20101, 2, 3

Violence Theft and against the handling stolen Fraud and Court & Sex person Sexual offences Burglary Robbery goods forgery

Denbighshire

Males 1 2 6 0 21 0

Females 0 0 0010

Conwy

Males 5 0 3 0 28 2

Females 0 0 0000

Ynys Mon/Anglesey

Males 4 0 5050

Females 0 0 0010

Gwynedd

Males 11 1 11 0 26 8

Females 0 0 0011

NotStated000000

Indictable Summary Criminal Other indictable motoring Summary motoring damage Drug offences offences offences offences offences

Mold4 Males 2 3 24 0 23 1 Females 0 0 1 0 0 0

Wrexham Maelor Males 3 0 17 0 47 11 Females 0 0 2 0 3 0

Flintshire Males 5 4 15 0 31 10 Females 0 0 1 0 4 0

Denbighshire Males 0 0 2 0 39 5 Females 0 0 3 0 3 0

Conwy Males 0 2 23 0 26 2 Females 0 0 0 0 0 0

Ynys Mon/Anglesey Males 0 2 4 0 10 3 Females 0 0 0 0 0 0

Gwynedd Males 1 5 16 0 24 5 Females 0 0 3 0 2 0 811W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 812W

Indictable Summary Criminal Other indictable motoring Summary motoring damage Drug offences offences offences offences offences

Not Stated 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Sentences at a magistrates court are based in the area where the court is based rather than the prosecuting force. Therefore although these courts are based in North Wales these offences may not have been prosecuted by North Wales police. 4 Sentences passed at the Crown Court are based on the prosecuting force. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services - Ministry of Justice.

Prisoners These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems which, as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for and processing. Justice what assessment the Prison Service makes of the potential effect on a victim of crime or a victim’s Population in prison establishments, by age group, as at 31 March 2011, England and Wales family in determining any change of category of prison Age group Number of persons in which an offender convicted of that crime is held. [62758] 60 to 65 1,637 66 to 70 755 Mr Blunt: Recategorisation of prisoners and allocating 71 to 75 390 them to appropriate prisons is vital to sentence management. 76 to 80 150 The correct category ensures that prisoners are held in 81 and over 42 appropriately secure conditions, and subsequent allocation helps prisoners to use their sentences constructively, to Prisoners’ Earnings Act 1996 tackle their offending behaviour and reduce the risks of re-offending on release. Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Prisoners must be held in the lowest security category Justice what progress his Department has made in consistent with managing risk. The decision to recategorise implementing the Prisoners’ Earnings Act 1996 in respect a prisoner is taken only after a full and thorough risk of financial reparations to victims. [62187] assessment which includes consideration of the likelihood of escape and the subsequent risk of harm to the public Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice is preparing to should they do so. When a prisoner is being considered implement the Prisoners’ Earnings Act 1996 in England for allocation to open conditions, where the victim lives and Wales. Deductions from prisoners’ earnings will should form part of the consideration. begin in September of this year. It remains our intention Under the statutory victim contact scheme operated that all money deducted will go to organisations concerned by Probation Trusts, by virtue of section 35 of the with victims. The necessary Commencement Order and Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004, victims amendments to the Prison Rules will be made in due of certain serious sexual or violent crimes where the course. offender has been sentenced to 12 months imprisonment The National Offender Management Service will make or more may elect to receive information about key the deductions and is preparing its approach, including developments in the offender’s sentence. This includes how best to inform prisoners and employers of the Act. notification that a prisoner is being considered for a Clause 103 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and the move to a lower security prison, and the outcome. Punishment of Offenders Bill is intended to give us a more flexible power, able to include more prisoners in Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for the scheme of deductions. Justice (1) how many prison inmates are aged (a) between 60 and 65, (b) between 66 and 70, (c) Prisoners’ Release: Re-offenders between 71 and 75, (d) between 76 and 80 and (e) over 80 years; [62833] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (2) what the age is of the oldest prison inmate in how many people reoffended within 12 months of England and Wales. [62834] release from a custodial sentence handed down by (a) a Magistrates’ Court and (b) a Crown Court in each year since 1995. [62847] Mr Blunt: The table shows the population of prisoners by specified age groups in all prison establishments in Mr Blunt: The one year re-conviction data covers all England and Wales, from the most recent available data adult offenders released from custody or commencing a at the end of March 2011. court order between January and March of each year. The oldest prisoner as at 31 March 2011 is 92 years of The earliest available information regarding re-conviction age. is from 2000. 813W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 814W

Table 1 shows the number and one year re-conviction Further information on adult re-conviction is available rate of adult offenders who were released from custody at: in the first quarter of 2000, 2002 to 2009 and were http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ sentenced at a Crown court. reoffendingofadults.htm Table 2 shows the number and one year re-conviction Prisoners: Foreign Nationals rate of adult offenders who were released from custody in the first quarter of 2000, 2002 to 2009 and were sentenced at a magistrates court. Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what recent estimate he has made of the number of Table 1: Re-conviction rates for adult offenders after release from a foreign nationals in prisons in England and Wales. prison sentence given at a Crown court (2000,2002 to 2009 cohorts) [62336] Number of Number Re-conviction rate offenders re-convicted (percentage) Mr Blunt: The number of foreign national prisoners 2000 7,457 2,885 38.7 held in all prison establishments in England and Wales 2001 1— 1— 1— by nationality is published quarterly in the Ministry of 2002 6,592 2,413 36.6 Justice Statistics Bulletin “Offender Management Statistics 2003 6,388 2,243 35.1 Quarterly Bulletin” and available via: 2004 6,320 1,998 31.6 http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/ 2005 6,024 1,743 28.9 prisons-and-probation/oms-quartlery.htm 2006 6,369 1,714 26.9 From the most recent available data, end of March 2007 5,837 1,580 27.1 2011, the foreign national prisoner population in all 2008 7,181 2,117 29.5 prison establishments in England and Wales is 10,745. 2009 8,430 2,787 33.1 These figures have been drawn from administrative 1 Data are not available for 2001 due to a problem with archived data IT systems which, as with any large scale recording on court orders. system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Table 2: Re-conviction rates for adult offenders after release from a and processing. prison sentence given at a magistrates court (2000,2002 to 2009 cohorts) Prisons: Education Number of Number Re-conviction rate offenders re-convicted (percentage) Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for 2000 8,127 5,133 63.2 Justice what plans he has for the future level of financial 2001 1— 1— 1— education for prisoners diagnosed with mental health 2002 8,860 6,094 68.8 conditions. [62645] 2003 7,846 5,444 69.4 2004 9,334 6,151 65.9 Mr Blunt: “Making Prisons Work: Skills for 2005 8,462 5,380 63.6 Rehabilitation”, published jointly with the Department 2006 7,900 4,933 62.4 for Business, Innovation and Skills on 18 May, sets out 2007 6,876 4,440 64.6 a programme of reform of offender learning. We will 2008 8,799 5,789 65.8 place a much greater emphasis on developing the vocational 2009 8,291 5,332 64.3 and employability skills that offenders need in order to 1 Data are not available for 2001 due to a problem with archived data find and keep jobs and Apprenticeships in the labour on court orders. markets where they will be released. We will continue to provide financial education to enhance the prospects of Further information on adult re-conviction is available a prisoner (including those with diagnosed mental health at: conditions) securing employment. The review of offender http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ learning also commits to provide greater support for reoffendingofadults.htm prisoners with learning difficulties and disabilities. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice In addition the National Offender Management Service how many people reoffended within 12 months of release is working with the Money Advice Service to enable from an indeterminate sentence of imprisonment for prisoners, including those with mental health issues, to public protection in each year since 2003. [62848] access appropriate financial advice. Probation: Finance Mr Blunt: Re-conviction rates for persons released from an indeterminate sentence of imprisonment for Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for public protection are not available. However the Ministry Justice whether a probation trust would be financially of Justice will be publishing a new quarterly re-offending liable for a successful probation lot bid which was above bulletin on 27 October 2011. This bulletin uses a new the contract price under his proposals for tendering for measure of re-offending through which it will be possible unpaid work. [62773] to provide re-offending rates for persons released from indeterminate sentences. Mr Blunt: The competition will require all bidders to This new quarterly re-offending bulletin was recently submit a best and final offer which will include a announced in the published response on improvements contract price for the delivery of CP which will be in Ministry of Justice Statistics and the first publication evaluated to confirm it offers value for money to the will be on 27 October 2011. More details are available MoJ. The successful bid will therefore become the contract from the Ministry of Justice website: price and the successful bidder will be contracted to http://www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/565.htm deliver the services for the contract price. 815W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 816W

Repossession Orders: Wandsworth 1 The mortgage data includes all types of lenders whether local authority or private {e.g. banks and building societies). 2 The landlord data include all types of landlord whether social or private sector, and cover actions made using both the standard and accelerated possession procedures. The accelerated possession procedure Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice is used by landlords in relation to assured shorthold tenancies, when how many court orders were issued for the repossession the fixed period of tenancy has come to an end. It enables orders to be of homes in (a) the London borough of Wandsworth made by the court solely on the basis of written evidence and without and (b) Tooting constituency in each quarter since calling the parties to a hearing. 3 The number of claims that lead to an order includes claims in which 2005. [62604] the first order, whether outright or suspended, is made during the period. 4 These figures represent the numbers of claims leading to orders being made. This is more accurate than the number of orders, Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice holds statistical removing the double-counting of instances where a single claim leads information in relation to the numbers of possession to more than one order. It is also a more meaningful measure of the claims which led to an order being made for all mortgage number of homeowners who are subject to court repossession actions. and landlord properties in the London borough of 5 Repossessions can occur without a court order for possession being made, and not all court orders for possession subsequently result in Wandsworth and the parliamentary constituency of repossession. Tooting. These figures represent the numbers of claims 6 The Tooting parliamentary constituency consists of different boundaries leading to orders being made rather than the numbers in the quarters upto and including 2010 Q1 and from 2010 Q2 of orders as they are more accurate, removing the onwards due to restructuring after the May 2010 general election. double-counting of instances where a single claim leads 7 Counts have been rounded to the nearest five. to more than one order. They also provide a more Source: Ministry of Justice meaningful measure of the number of homeowners who are subject to court repossession actions. The following table shows these figures by quarter from 2005 to the first quarter of 2011, the latest period for TREASURY which figures are available. Capital Gains Tax Total number of mortgage1 and landlord2 possession claims which led to an order being made3, 4, 5 in the London borough of Wandsworth and Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Tooting parliamentary constituency6 by quarter, 2005-2011 Q17 Exchequer if he will estimate the cost to the public London borough of Tooting purse of the reintroduction of taper relief for capital Wandsworth parliamentary gains tax. [61609] constituency Mortgage Landlord Mortgage Landlord Mr Gauke: No estimate of the cost to the Exchequer Quarter orders orders orders orders of reintroducing taper relief is available. 2005 1 80 210 25 75 Economic and Monetary Union 2 65 280 25 95 3 65 230 25 90 Mark Reckless: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 4 70 180 25 80 what the status is of the funding allocated for Euro zone 2006 1 75 205 35 85 financial assistance by (a) the International Monetary 2 70 205 25 60 Fund, (b) the European Financial Stability facility and (c) the European Financial Stability Mechanism. 3 90 235 25 80 [62355] 4 90 180 40 60 2007 1 70 275 25 105 Mr Hoban: The international financial assistance 2 70 160 15 50 package for Greece agreed in May 2010 included: a ¤30 billion loan from the International Monetary Fund 3 70 160 25 65 (IMF), of which ¤14.6 has been disbursed; and, ¤80 billion 4 50 155 20 55 of bilateral loans from euro area member states, of 2008 1 45 180 25 65 which ¤38.4 billion has been disbursed. There was no 2 90 200 30 60 contribution either from the EU Budget or from the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM), 3 70 255 25 80 which is backed by the EU Budget. 4 65 170 25 45 The international financial assistance package for 2009 1 40 165 15 50 Ireland agreed in December 2010 included: a ¤22.5 billion 2 80 200 35 70 loan from the IMF, of which ¤7.2 billion has been 3 80 185 35 80 disbursed; a ¤22.5 billion loan from the EFSM, of which ¤11.4 billion has been disbursed; a ¤17.5 billion 4 45 155 15 65 loan from the European Financial Stability Facility 2010 1 30 150 15 60 (EFSF), of which ¤3.6 billion has been disbursed; and 2 35 130 10 50 ¤5 billion of bilateral loans from the UK, Sweden and Denmark. 3 35 185 15 85 The international financial assistance package for 4 45 165 15 75 Portugal agreed in May 2011 included a ¤26 billion loan 2011 1 35 160 10 60 from the EFSM, of which ¤6.5 billion has been disbursed; 817W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 818W a ¤26 billion loan from the IMF, of which ¤6.1 billion Mr Gauke: Up to 31 May 2011, HMRC had received has been disbursed; and a ¤26 billion loan from the (a) 4,368 successful and (b) 148 unsuccessful applications EFSF. for the NICs holiday from new businesses. The regional breakdown is as follows: EU Budget Successful Unsuccessful

Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Northern Ireland 190 10 what steps he is taking to promote (a) a reduction in Scotland 597 14 the EU Budget and (b) a net reduction in the UK’s Wales 263 12 contribution to the EU Budget. [62542] East Midlands 419 10 North East 280 14 Justine Greening: The Government are intent on North West 804 28 controlling the size of the EU Budget, and thereby the South West 720 24 level of the UK’s contributions, in discussions of both West Midlands 534 21 EU annual budgets and the next financial perspective. Yorkshire and 561 15 The Government have been clear that the 4.9% increase Humber in EU spending in 2012 proposed by the Commission is Total 4,368 148 unacceptable. The Government will continue to work with other member states to deliver the best possible outcome for UK taxpayers in future negotiations. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member Fiscal Policy for Glasgow North East of 28 April 2011, Official Report, column 516W,on national insurance contributions, how many new jobs have been created in each region to Jonathan Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer which the national insurance holiday has applied since what assessment he has made of the implications for his its inception. [62523] economic policy of the trend in household consumption in the first quarter of 2011; and if he will make a Mr Gauke: HMRC has received 4,368 successful statement. [62588] applications for the national insurance contributions (NICs) holiday (up to 31 May 2011). The regional Justine Greening: The Office for Budget Responsibility breakdown is as follows: (OBR) published its forecast for household consumption in their Economic and Fiscal Outlook in March 2011. Applications received This takes account of the current Government’s economic policy. The OBR forecast that household consumption Northern Ireland 190 will grow by 0.6% in 2011 and 1.3% in 2012. Scotland 597 Wales 263 International Monetary Fund: Public Appointments East Midlands 419 North East 280 Mark Reckless: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer North West 804 for what reasons he is supporting the candidature of South West 720 Christine Lagarde for managing director of the West Midlands 534 International Monetary Fund. [62361] Yorkshire and Humber 561 Total 4,368 Mr Hoban: The UK continues to support the G20 commitment to open, transparent and merit based selection Analysis suggests that on average each business will of the heads and senior leadership of International claim for approximately two employees. This implies financial institutions, including the International Monetary that the scheme has supported around 8,700 new jobs. Fund. Revenue and Customs: Labour Turnover The international community needs a strong IMF as an anchor of global economic stability and prosperity. John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer That is why the UK believes it is important to support how many tax inspectors HM Revenue and Customs the strongest candidate for the next managing director, expects to (a) recruit and (b) retire in each year of the irrespective of nationality. On the basis of merit, the comprehensive spending review period. [62757] UK believes Christine Lagarde is the outstanding candidate. She has shown real international leadership as chair of Mr Gauke: Following the merger of the Inland Revenue the G20 Finance Ministers this year and has been a and HM Customs and Excise on 18 April 2005, HMRC strong advocate for countries tackling high budget deficits no longer use the specific title of ’tax inspector’. Instead, and living within their means. since the formation of HMRC all staff are known as ‘officers of Revenue and Customs’. The Department National Insurance Contributions does not therefore keep or forecast information on numbers of tax inspectors. Mr Hanson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Compliance functions previously carried out by tax how many applications for the national insurance inspectors are spread across the staff profile of various holiday scheme in each region had been (a) received parts of the Department. The compliance effort throughout and (b) approved as at 31 May 2011. [61184] the SR period will be bolstered by redeployment and 819W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 820W recruitment, including graduate recruitment, and supported Mr Gauke: HMRC’s business plan for 2011-12 shows by targeted training on a modular basis according to a re-investment of £132 million while indicative plans the needs of the individual and their job role. for the remaining years of the spending review period are £191 million, £268 million and £326 million respectively. Revenue and Customs: Training John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 19 May 2011, Official Report, John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the column 327W, on tax avoidance, when he expects HM Exchequer what proportion of the budget of HM Revenue and Customs to publish Measuring Tax Gaps Revenue and Customs has been allocated to training 2011. [62795] tax inspectors in techniques to address tax (a) evasion and (b) avoidance in each year of the comprehensive Mr Gauke: Measuring Tax Gaps 2011 will be published spending review period. [62756] on 21 September 2011, as announced on HMRC’s website. Mr Gauke: HMRC no longer uses the term ‘Tax Inspector’ but training for its staff consists of various Taxation: Business modules from the Tax Professional Qualifications Catalogue which equip them with the skills and knowledge to Jesse Norman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer tackle evasion and avoidance. The salary and miscellaneous what powers HM Revenue and Customs has to defer budgets allocated to the team responsible for the design, the payment of tax liabilities of corporations; and for development and delivery of the tax learning packages what reason the Chief Executive of HM Revenue and in question total £7.36 million for 2011-12. This represents Customs is unable to provide substantive responses to 0.2% of the total HMRC budget and does not include questions about the deferral of tax liabilities of individual the salary costs of trainees. There is a rolling programme corporations. [62332] to identify and address staff learning needs using this modular approach. Mr Gauke: Under the Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act 2005, the Commissioners are responsible Tax Avoidance for the collection and management of the taxes, duties and national insurance contributions for which HMRC John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the is responsible. Decisions in the courts have illustrated Exchequer pursuant to the answer of 19 May 2011, the scope of the administrative discretion which may be Official Report, column 327W, on tax avoidance, what exercised when carrying out this responsibility. It is the (a) number and (b) types of criminal attack on the clear that this discretion is limited but it allows HMRC tax system investigation by HM Revenue and Customs to facilitate the overall task of tax collection by obtaining since 2005 were; and what the (i) cost and (ii) amount for the Exchequer the highest net return practicable. of revenue recovered was in each case. [62792] Information about any aspect of a taxpayer’s tax affairs is confidential, including arrangements for deferral Mr Gauke: It is not possible for HMRC to provide of liabilities. the answer to the question in the requested format as this information is not collated and recorded in a way Taxation: Multinational Companies that would enable the level of detail requested to be identified. Estimates of losses which predominantly Stephen Twigg: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer relate to organised crime exist for Tobacco, Alcohol, what recent representations the Government have made Oils and VAT Missing Trader Intra Community fraud at EU level, to whom and on what date, on the introduction and these can be found in the Measuring Tax Gaps 2010 at EU level of legislation supporting contract transparency document at: and project-by-project reporting similar to Section 1504 www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/measuring-tax-gaps-2010.htm.pdf of the US Dodd-Frank law since February 2011. [62062]

John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I pursuant to the answer of 19 May 2011, Official Report, gave the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) on column 327W,on tax avoidance, what proportion of the 28 June, Official Report, column 687-8W. . funding provided to HM Revenue and Customs was spent on addressing (a) tax avoidance, (b) tax evasion VAT: Energy and (c) criminal attacks in each year of the comprehensive spending review period. [62793] Mr Weir: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what his estimate is of the change in the level of revenue Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer I that will be raised from VAT on domestic energy as a gave on 27 June 2011, Official Report, column 550W, to result in the level of changes in fuel prices in each year the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain). since 2007; [60408] (2) what his estimate is of projected VAT yields for John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2011-12 from domestic fuel bills. [60409] pursuant to the answer of 19 May 2011, Official Report, column 327W,on tax avoidance, what proportion of the Mr Gauke [holding answer 17 June 2011]: No estimate £917 million investment in HM Revenue and Customs has been made of the impact on VAT of increased fuel has been budgeted for in each year of the comprehensive prices for the period since 2007. No estimate of the VAT spending review. [62794] payable in 2011-12 on domestic fuel has yet been made. 821W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 822W

NORTHERN IRELAND On time—5 day target Outside 5 day target Anglo-Irish Secretariat Value of Value of Number of transactions Number of transactions transactions (£) transactions (£) Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what the cost to the public purse was of (a) August 394 660,321 435 896,134 travel, (b) accommodation and (c) other expenses for 2010 staff working within the Anglo-Irish Secretariat in each September 440 555,812 429 798,830 year since its formation. [62509] 2010 October 377 736,523 431 1,252,617 Mr Paterson: The Anglo-Irish Secretariat was established 2010 in 1985 and ran until 1998. The Northern Ireland Office November 473 401,873 374 636,147 2010 no longer hold the information requested. December 279 227,329 275 516,411 Departmental Billing 2010 January 361 438,855 371 563,199 2011 Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for February 452 431,071 326 936,050 Northern Ireland how many invoices received by his 2011 Department have been paid (a) on time and (b) late in March 305 366,463 648 720,359 each month since May 2010; and what the monetary 2011 value is of the invoices paid late. [62487] April 112 300,854 503 594,856 2011 Mr Paterson: Payments for the Northern Ireland May 181 142,525 538 736,137 Office are contracted out to a Northern Ireland Civil 2011 Service Department, whose prompt payment target is payment cleared within 10 days. Departmental Manpower

On time—10 day target Outside 10 day target Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Value of Value of Ireland what the cost to the public purse was of (a) Number of transactions Number of transactions travel and (b) accommodation for staff in his Department transactions (£) transactions (£) in each year since 2007. [62526] May 896 1,340,930 49 29,238 2010 Mr Paterson: Comparable figures for the Department June 947 2,531,755 22 237,888 as it is now configured are not available following the 2010 completion of devolution of policing and justice functions July 801 1,181,807 30 115,302 on 12 April 2010. 2010 In the financial year for 2010-11 the Department August 804 1,423,146 25 133,309 spent £616,786.00 on staff travel and £104,548.00 on 2010 accommodation. September 852 1,295,094 17 59,548 2010 Fuels: Prices October 798 1,964,920 10 24,220 2010 Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern November 843 1,013,219 4 24,801 Ireland what discussions he has had with (a) the Northern 2010 Ireland Executive, (b) energy companies and (c) the December 548 678,315 6 65,425 2010 Chancellor of the Exchequer on recent trends in fuel January 714 956,056 18 45,998 prices in Northern Ireland. [62524] 2011 February 774 1,346,735 4 20,386 Mr Paterson: I have not received any requests for 2011 discussions on these matters from Northern Ireland March 927 1,013,562 26 73,260 Executive Ministers nor do I have any ministerial 2011 responsibility in these areas. It remains open to Northern April 598 869,367 17 26,343 Ireland Ministers to raise these matters with the Chancellor 2011 of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for May 687 861,971 32 16,691 Tatton (Mr Osborne) and other ministerial colleagues. 2011 Parades On time—5 day target Outside 5 day target Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Value of Value of Number of transactions Number of transactions Ireland what recent representations he has received on transactions (£) transactions (£) the issue of parades and protests in Northern Ireland since May 2010. [62508] May 232 307,007 713 1,063,161 2010 Mr Paterson: I have received a number of both written June 309 448,757 660 2,320,886 and verbal representations from individuals, various 2010 groups and organisations with a range of differing July 276 353,279 555 943,830 2010 views on parading. All decisions on parades in Northern Ireland remain a matter for the Parades Commission. 823W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 824W

VAT: Hotels and what training his Department provides to its officials in respect of the management of visual data security. Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern [60909] Ireland what representations he has received on the rate of VAT levied on hotels in Northern Ireland. [62392] Mr Jeremy Browne: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office takes information security very seriously and has Mr Paterson: I have not received any representations; measures in place to meet the risks posed from visual taxes are generally the responsibility of the Chancellor display units (VDUs) being overlooked, both in the of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for office environment and when working remotely. Specific Tatton (Mr Osborne). measures include a requirement for all staff to adhere to the relevant standard operating procedures (SOPs) for the ICT equipment they have been authorised to use, including mobility devices. The department’s VDUs are FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE programmed to go into ‘hibernation’ if not activated within a short period of time; staff are instructed not to Asylum leave their units switched on when away from their desks; screens may be ‘anonomised’ where considered Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign necessary for those working inside and away from the and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has office. If staff need to work remotely and view information made of the effectiveness of the Dublin 2 process for that is sensitive, they must ensure that they cannot be the handling of asylum seekers’ cases; and if he will overlooked. ‘Privacy screen panels’ are available to mitigate make a statement. [62678] the risk of “shoulder surfing”. The need to ensure visual data security is considered as part of any office Damian Green: I have been asked to reply. accommodation moves. The Government strongly supports the Dublin Staff are trained in all aspects of data handling and Regulation (“Dublin II”). The Regulation ensures that security in a variety of ways including: annual completion just one member state—generally the first one in which of mandatory ‘protecting information’ training, induction the individual claimed asylum or entered unlawfully—is courses; regular briefing and other training events; articles responsible for considering an asylum claim made in on departmental intranet sites and; ad hoc reminders as the EU. and when considered necessary. This makes it more difficult to abuse asylum processes in the EU by making multiple claims in different member Departmental Public Expenditure states, or by delaying an asylum claim until the individual has reached his or her preferred destination. It also Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for provides certainty for the asylum seeker by ensuring Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what expenditure that a specific member state is obliged to consider his or his Department will incur in relation to the Defence and her claim. Security Equipment International Exhibition between Between 2006 and 2010, the UK removed 6,034 people 13 and 16 September 2011; and whether Ministers from to other member states under the Dublin Regulation his Department plan to attend the event. [60760] and accepted 1,849 transfers from other member states. These figures are based on management information Mr Jeremy Browne: The Foreign and Commonwealth that is not quality assured under National Statistics Office will not incur any costs in relation to the Defence protocols. The figures do not constitute part of the and Security International Exhibition. The programme National Statistics and should be treated as provisional. of UK Ministers will be decided nearer to the date of the exhibition. Davinder Singh Bhullar Departmental Responsibilities Mr Sutcliffe: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will raise with the Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Government of India the case of Professor Davinder Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what strategic Singh Bhullar. [62851] framework his Department has developed for the delivery of its core functions during the comprehensive Mr Jeremy Browne: I wrote to the Indian High spending review period. [59728] Commissioner on 20 June, reiterating the UK Government’s strong opposition to the death penalty and urging the Mr Jeremy Browne: The Foreign and Commonwealth Government of India to reconsider Mr Bhullar’s sentence. Office’s (FCO) Business Plan I have also raised our concerns with Indian Foreign http://www.number10.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/FCO- Secretary Rao on 28 June. We continue to urge the Business-Plan1.pdf Government of India to establish a formal moratorium as a first step towards the abolition of the death penalty launched in October 2010, and updated in May 2011 in India. sets out the coalition Government’s vision for the FCO over the next four years. The Business Plan sets out how Departmental ICT the FCO will deliver on the Programme for Government commitments relevant to its work. Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for The Business Plan is consistent with the National Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is Security Strategy and Strategic Security and Defence taking to promote visual data security in his Department; Review published in October 2010. 825W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 826W

The FCO reports monthly on its progress against the Israel’s right to defend herself. It is vital that any Business Plan: response is proportionate, avoiding lethal use of force http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/publications-and-documents/ unless absolutely necessary, and that the right to protest publications1/annual-reports/business-plan is respected. I continue to call on all parties, including From July we will also publish a quarterly data summary the Governments of Israel and Syria, to do everything covering indicators on spending, reform and performance. they can to protect the lives of civilians and to avoid The data summary is designed to be in a format that is provocative acts.” consistent across departments. Turks and Caicos Islands: Economic Situation Mediterranean Region: Human Trafficking Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment and Commonwealth Affairs if he will support EU he has made of the progress made by the Turks and initiatives to improve joint patrolling arrangements in Caicos Islands towards reducing its budget deficit. the Mediterranean Sea in order to deter and apprehend [61467] people traffickers. [62679] Mr Duncan: I have been asked to reply. Damian Green: I have been asked to reply. Department for International Development (DFID) The UK supports the changes made in the amending officials receive weekly and monthly revenue and regulation on Frontex, on which political agreement expenditure reports from the Turks and Caicos Islands has been reached. It will be formally adopted in plenary (TCI) Government which show that financial performance by the European Parliament in early autumn 2011 and in the opening period of this financial year is in line by the Council shortly after. We believe that the amending with the budget to March 2012. The budget to March Regulation will help improve joint patrolling arrangements 2012 sets TCI on a path to substantially reduce the in the Mediterranean sea by giving Frontex more control deficit from last year’s outturn. For further information over where member states’ technical equipment and on DFID’s support to TCI, I refer the hon. Member to human resources are deployed. The amending Frontex my written statement of 28 February 2011, Official Regulation also gives Frontex a mandate to process Report, columns 14-15WS. personal data in the course of its operational activities of persons suspected of people trafficking and smuggling, under condition that it is lawful, necessary and proportionate in relation to the tasks of the Agency; CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT and to pass this data to Europol for their action. We expect this to be a significant improvement in the fight Broadband against human trafficking and other forms of cross-border criminality. Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent assessment Syria: Politics and Government he has made of the cost of rolling out (a) superfast broadband and (b) superfast broadband over fibre to Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign each household in the UK. [61568] and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has received of efforts made by the Syrian authorities to Mr Vaizey: The cost of deploying (a) superfast stop demonstrators entering Israel; what recent broadband and (b) superfast broadband over fibre representations he has made to the Syrian authorities remains largely unchanged from previous estimates. on this issue; and if he will make a statement. [62088] The cost of deploying superfast broadband using a Fibre To The Cabinet (FTTC) approach to 90% of UK Alistair Burt: Following the deaths of four Palestinians premises UK would be over £4 billion and the cost of near Kuneitra and Majdal Shams in the Israeli/Syrian deploying fibre to every premise in the UK would be disengagement zone during protests on 15 May (Nakba), over £25 billion. The remaining 10% of premises under our ambassador to Syria called on the Syrian Deputy the FTTC approach would require a mixed technology Foreign Minister to urge the Syrian authorities to show solution. Commercial investors have already committed restraint and to make appropriate preparations to ensure to address at least 66% of premises under the FTTC the technical fence was not breached ahead of the approach. Naksa (6 June) anniversary. On 6 June, 600 Palestinians again gathered near Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Kuneitra and Majdal Shams. A further attempt to Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what recent breach the technical fence reportedly resulted in the progress his Department has made on the roll-out of deaths of 23 Palestinians after the Israel Defence Forces superfast broadband in London; [61618] opened fire in order to prevent the protestors from (2) what recent progress his Department has made crossing the ceasefire line. on the roll-out of superfast broadband in the West The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Midlands; [61619] Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (3) what recent progress his Department has made (Yorks) (Mr Hague) said in a statement on 6 June, on the roll-out of superfast broadband in Northern “I am deeply concerned by reports that a number of Ireland; [61620] protesters have been killed and others injured following (4) what recent progress his Department has made protests in the Golan Heights yesterday. We recognise on the roll-out of superfast broadband in Wales; [61621] 827W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 828W

(5) what recent progress his Department has made the reuse of public sector networks to facilitate the on the roll-out of superfast broadband in Scotland; rollout of superfast broadband where it is feasible to do [61622] so. (6) what recent progress his Department has made on the roll-out of superfast broadband in the North Buckingham Palace: Demonstrations East; [61623] (7) what recent progress his Department has made Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for on the roll-out of superfast broadband in the North Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) on what West; [61624] grounds the Royal Parks Agency declined to approve a (8) what recent progress his Department has made demonstration by Republic planned to take place on the roll-out of superfast broadband in East Anglia; outside Buckingham Palace on 25 June 2011; and if he [62030] [61625] will make a statement; (9) what recent progress his Department has made (2) what discussions he had with (a) the Metropolitan on the roll-out of superfast broadband in the South police and (b) the Royal Parks Agency on planned protests by Republic outside Buckingham Palace. West; [61626] [62031] (10) what recent progress his Department has made on the roll-out of superfast broadband in the South John Penrose: The Royal Parks (TRP) regularly East; [61627] accommodates public demonstrations and the chief (11) what recent progress his Department has made executive has made clear to Republic that he will consider on the roll-out of superfast broadband in Yorkshire accommodating a demonstration in a prominent place and the Humber; [61628] adjacent to The Mall in St James’s park. This is in line (12) what recent progress his Department has made with its longstanding policy which seeks to balance the on the roll-out of superfast broadband in the East needs of all visitors to the Royal Parks. Midlands. [61629] The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Mr Jeremy Hunt: I recently announced funding for West Surrey (Mr Hunt), has not held discussions with three more local authority areas to be supported under the Metropolitan police or TRP on this matter. the broadband delivery programme: Norfolk, Wiltshire, and Devon and Somerset. Work is also progressing on Churches: Hertfordshire the four pilot projects in Cumbria, North Yorkshire, Herefordshire and Gloucestershire, and Highlands and Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Islands. My Department is working with the local Olympics, Media and Sport what steps he is taking to authorities in the remaining areas in England and with support the architectural heritage of ecclesiastical the three devolved Administrations to progress their buildings in (a) St Albans and (b) Hertfordshire; and broadband plans. There will shortly be an announcement if he will make a statement. [61650] of the indicative allocations for county areas in England and the devolved Administrations, to help them focus John Penrose: The Government supports the architectural their broadband plans. In the case of the devolved heritage of ecclesiastical buildings in St Albans and Administrations they have, by agreement with my Hertfordshire in a number of ways. Department, adopted responsibility for co-ordinating broadband plans within their areas of administrative The Department for Culture, Media and Sport operates responsibility. My Department will, however, continue the Listed Places of Worship Grant scheme which makes to work closely with all authorities and has already a contribution towards the VAT incurred in making made available an online resource centre, and is developing repairs to the listed places of worship of any faith or a framework procurement contract which will be open denomination. to all authorities to use and will help minimise the In partnership with the Church Commissioners, the number of procurements, and has also assembled an Department funds the Churches Conservation Trust experienced team to assist the delivery of our broadband (CCT) which cares for the most significant Church of objectives. England churches no longer needed for regular worship. In 2009-11, CCT spent £74,000 on repairing and Broadband: Lancashire maintaining its churches in the Diocese of St Albans of which £43,000 was spent on churches in Hertfordshire. David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, The running and maintenance of relevant English Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what representations he Heritage and Heritage Lottery Fund schemes are their has received on community access to the Clio broadband responsibility. I have therefore asked their chief executives network in Northern Lancashire; [62092] to consider the question raised by the hon. Member for (2) for what reason Sunderland Point has not been St Albans and to write to her direct. Copies of their given access to the Cleo broadband network in replies will be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. Northern Lancashire. [62093] Culture Mr Vaizey: I have not received any direct representations regarding access to the Cumbria and Lancashire Education Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Online (CLEO) network. The relevant local authorities Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will make an have responsibility for operation of the network and assessment of the contribution to the UK economy of provision of access to it. The Government encourages the (a) television and radio, (b) design, (c) art and 829W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 830W antiques, (d) architecture, (e) advertising, (f) tourism, John Penrose: The information requested is not held (g) designer fashion, (h) film, video and photography, by this Department and relates to matters that are the (i) music, visual and performing arts, (j) publishing, responsibility of English Heritage. (k) software and electronic publishing and (l) digital Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive of English and entertainment media industry. [61566] Heritage to write direct to the hon. Member for Meon Valley. Mr Jeremy Hunt: The Department publishes statistics Copies of the reply will be placed in the Libraries of on the gross value added (GVA), employment and both Houses. number of businesses within the creative industries. These statistics include all of the categories mentioned, Press apart from tourism. The latest statistics were published in December 2010 and can be found at the following Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for link: Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he has http://www.culture.gov.uk/publications/7634.aspx assessed the effect on supply to consumers of newspapers The Office for National Statistics Tourism Intelligence and magazines of the self-regulation of the newspaper Unit have produced a Tourism Satellite Account to and magazine supply industry. [62318] show how tourism contributes to the UK’s National Accounts. The latest statistics were published in May Mr Vaizey: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I 2011 and can be found at the following link: gave on 22 June 2011, Official Report, column 292W, to http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/tsa0511.pdf the hon. Member for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech). Satellites Departmental Manpower Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what progress Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will make it he has made on measures to reform the global satellite his policy to publish monthly information on changes orbital filing regime for the purposes of supporting in the numbers of employees of his Department’s UK satellite operators and the space sector’s growth agency, categorised by (a) seniority, (b) voluntary agenda. [62224] redundancy, (c) natural wastage and (d) involuntary redundancy. [61708] Mr Willetts: I have been asked to reply. The Government are supporting Ofcom’s efforts to John Penrose: The Department provides regular updates introduce a minimum condition for bringing satellite on The Royal Parks headcount and natural wastage orbit slots into use. The aim is to announce proposals through its Annual Report and Accounts, and monthly for the new measures at the World Radio conference in returns to the Office for National Statistics. We have no January 2012. plans to provide separate detailed updates given the administrative burden this entails. Sports: Dartford

Departmental Procurement Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what financial Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for assistance Sport England has provided to community Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what provisions in sports clubs and projects in Dartford constituency in respect of behavioural standards have been included in each year since 2005. [61940] procurement contracts issued by his Department since May 2010. [61683] Hugh Robertson: Sport England invests national lottery and Exchequer funding in community sport. The financial John Penrose: The Department’s standard terms and assistance awarded to community sports clubs and projects conditions, and those terms and conditions that we in the Dartford constituency can be found in the following adopt from other public sector agreements, contain tables: clauses that set out relevant standards of behaviour required, in the execution of any contract. Details of Lottery funding Total (£) the terms and conditions for goods and services that we 2005-06 — follow can be found on the Office of Government 2006-07 — Commerce website at the following link: 2007-08 30,000 http://www.ogc.gov.uk/ 2008-09 — Model_terms_and_conditions_for_goods_and_services.asp 2009-10 12,000 2010-11 1,400 English Heritage Exchequer funding Total (£)

George Hollingbery: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 194,400 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what information 2006-07 255,600 his Department holds on the cost of (a) admission and 2007-08 — (b) venue hire at each English Heritage site in each 2008-09 — year since 2005. [61924] 831W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 832W

Mr Robathan: Training in the RAF covers a wide Exchequer funding Total (£) range of activities and is continual through service life. 2009-10 60,000 The full costs are not held centrally and could be 2010-11 — provided only at disproportionate cost.

Telecommunications: Credit Armed Forces Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for he has had with telecommunications companies on the Defence what the (a) cost and (b) establishment by introduction of a credit limit for consumers. [61563] numbers of (i) Land Command, (ii) Navy Command and (iii) Air Command (A) is for 2011-12 and (B) was Mr Vaizey: No discussions have been held, as this is a in each of the last five years. [60529] commercial issue in which Government do not involve themselves. Telecommunications companies are best able Mr Robathan: The estimated cost for financial year to consider and decide whether they should introduce 2011-12 and personnel strength, civilian and military, as such facilities for their customers. at 1 April 2011 for Top Level Budget (TLB) holders in Land Command, Navy Command and Air Command Video Recordings: Certification are shown in the following table:

Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Land Navy Air Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he has set Command Command Command a timetable for the consultation exercise on the operation of the Video Recordings Act 1984 and 2010 following Total departmental 7,030 2,332 2,778 expenditure limit the report of the Independent Review on the (£ million) Commercialisation and Sexualisation of Childhood. Personnel strength 127,540 37,580 41,950 [61881] This does not include the cost of operations. Mr Vaizey: The consultation will be launched in the summer. The financial outturn and personnel strengths, civilian and military, for each of the five last years for TLB holders in Land Command, Navy Command and Air Command are shown in the following tables: DEFENCE Outturn by financial year total departmental expenditure limit Air Force: Redundancy £ million Navy Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Land Command Command Air Command Defence (1) what his most recent estimate is of the 2006-07 6,297 2,148 2,686 number of RAF redundancies that will be made in each 2007-08 6,504 2,185 2,635 category of position in each year of the comprehensive 2008-09 6,724 2,185 2,733 spending review period; [62344] 2009-10 6,635 2,223 2,812 (2) what assessment he has made of the likelihood 2010-11 7,273 2,303 2,837 that RAF personnel who have been made redundant will be re-employed on a future date in their previous The 2010-11 figures have not been audited, final roles. [62345] figures will be provided in the 2010-11 departmental annual report and accounts. This does not include the Mr Robathan [holding answer 27 June 2011]: It is cost of operations. estimated that there will be up to 1,020 service personnel issued with a letter of redundancy in September 2011 as Personnel Land Navy part of the current phase of the RAF’s redundancy strength Command Command Air Command programme. Those personnel notified of their redundancy 1 April 2007 125,230 39,640 36,250 will leave the RAF in either February or August 2012. 1 April 2008 127,380 37,740 43,400 Further redundancy measures will be determined once the outcome of the current phase has been fully assessed, 1 April 2009 126,960 37,780 43,840 but it is expected that the total number of RAF 1 April 2010 130,840 38,340 44,380 redundancies will be approximately 3,000 by 31 August During the periods shown a number of TLBs merged; 2013. where this is the case the data have been combined. Individuals who are made redundant may apply to Data for 2006 are not held in the format required. re-join the RAF through normal channels, subject to appropriate vacancies being available. Air Force: Training Armed Forces: Education

Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence how much funding was allocated for Royal Air whether he proposes to give priority to the children of Force training in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) military service personnel in school applications under 2010-11; and if he will make a statement. [62364] the Military Covenant. [61376] 833W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 834W

Mr Robathan: Under the work of the Armed Forces Mr Robathan: As announced in the strategic defence Covenant, fair access protocols have been included and security review, the Ministry of Defence (MOD) within the schools admissions codes to ensure that intends to sell the Defence Support Group, which service children are not disadvantaged in accessing school incorporates the former Army Base Repair Organisation places. This will not constitute a priority over others but and Defence Aviation Repair Agency, by no later than will include the ability to apply for a school place on the end of the current spending review period, March receipt of a posting notice and the ability of schools to 2015. The MOD currently has no plans to privatise the exceed admission numbers to make a place available for Met Office or UK Hydrographic Office. a service child. The Ministry of Defence will engage in the Department for Education’s consultation in 2011-12 looking at admissions and the appeals process to ensure Departmental Security service children and their families are taken into account.

Armed Forces: Housing Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the effects of civilian redundancies within the Ministry of Defence Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Police on its capacity to provide security and policing Defence what steps he plans to take to improve the to his Department’s estates and property. [62496] energy efficiency of service family accommodation. [62745] Mr Robathan: A range of options that will define the Ministry of Defence (MOD)’s future requirement for Mr Robathan: Energy efficiency improvements are civil policing capabilities and services are currently under considered and undertaken as part of all works to consideration. No final decisions have yet been taken, service family accommodation where appropriate and but we will continue to maintain effective and proportionate subject to funding being secured. levels of security at all our sites to safeguard our people, Further work, including loft insulation and new heating assets and information. systems is undertaken as required. The current voluntary early release scheme for civilian Armed Forces: Parachuting staff in the MOD is intended to avoid the need for redundancies. Applications for early release that are submitted by MOD police officers will be considered in Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for the context of ensuring that the future operational Defence what estimate he has made of the number of effectiveness of the force is not adversely affected. soldiers required to be fully parachute trained; and how many soldiers are in receipt of parachute pay. [62307] Departmental Travel Nick Harvey: The Strategic Defence and Security Review included a commitment for a high-readiness, Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for light, short-duration intervention capability, organised Defence pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2011, Official and trained for parachute and air assault operations. Report, columns 829-30W, on departmental travel, (1) This will result in a reduction in the number of posts what was purchased in each case; what the monetary requiring a parachute qualification. Details of the timing value was of each such purchase; and what action his and implementation of any changes are still being worked Department took in each case; [62402] through. (2) what each incident was which was reported to his As at 31 May 2011, 2,790 soldiers were in receipt of Department’s whistleblowing hotline which resulted in special pay parachute. staff being disciplined from May 2005 to May 2010. [62403] Defence Mr Robathan: From the eight incidents reported in Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for my previous answer, the following lists the items purchased, Defence what military capabilities he assesses to be (a) their value, and the action taken by the Department: essential for the UK and (b) unaffordable for the UK to fund alone. [62308] Value of items Items purchased Action taken (£)

Nick Harvey: The strategic defence and security review Not recorded (expenditure through Disciplinary 10.99 set out the future force structure and capabilities we PayPal) action intend to deliver for the 2020s, and our approach to Picture framing material Prosecution 183.00 deepening relations with international partners to share Flights Prosecution 3,786.34 capabilities, technologies and programmes. General personal expenditure Disciplinary 714.11 action Departmental Public Bodies Food shopping Disciplinary 49.17 action Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Furniture Prosecution 4,030.00 Defence whether he has set a date to dispose of (a) the Laptop and IT products Prosecution 1,600.00 Met Office, (b) the UK Hydrographic Office and (c) Not recorded (expenditure through Police 781.50 the Base Repair and Maintenance Organisations. Fly Thomas Cook.com and Money caution Shop) [62284] 835W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 836W

Hampshire (3) what the cost to his Department was of the recent Defence Academy visit to the US. [61358] Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) which sites are owned by his Department Nick Harvey [holding answer 22 June 2011]: The within the boundaries of (a) Basingstoke and Deane recent Defence Academy visit to the US was part of the borough council, (b) East Hampshire district council, annual advanced command and staff course (ACSC) (c) Eastleigh borough council, (d) Fareham borough delivered by the Academy. ACSC attendees have been council, (e) Gosport borough council, (f) Hart district visiting the US for the last 10 years to examine the council and (g) Havant borough council; [62312] provenance and current status of security challenges in (2) which sites are owned by his Department within the USA, consider how the USA pursues its own security the boundaries of (a) New Forest district council, (b) and provide a context for UK and international students’ Rushmoor borough council, (c) Test Valley borough future work with the US military in coalition operations. council, (d) Winchester city council, (e) Portsmouth A total of 320 students and staff from the ACSC city council, (f) Southampton city council and (g) Isle took part in the visit which was a week long and of Wight council. [62313] included US Defence establishments in Washington and Norfolk, Virginia. Mr Robathan: A copy of the Ministry of Defence Although the final cost of the visit has not been sites, by local council, will be placed in the Library of calculated at this stage because some bills are still the House. outstanding, the cost to the Ministry of Defence is not Iraq: Detainees expected to exceed £465,000. This figure covers food, accommodation, air and road transport. These costs Mr Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence are offset in part by income received from those overseas pursuant to the statement of 26 February 2009, Official students, who pay to attend the course. Report, columns 394-7W, on records of detention (review conclusions), how many captured persons have World War I: Anniversaries been transferred to US forces in Iraq; and how many individuals so transferred have subsequently been Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for transferred to the Iraqi authorities since 31 December Defence (1) what discussions he has had with ministerial 2008. [62201] colleagues on the commemoration of the centenary of the outbreak of the first world war; and if he will make Dr Fox [holding answer 27 June 2011]: For the reasons a statement; [62579] set out in the statement by the then Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Hutton) on 26 February 2009, Official (2) what discussions he has had with his counterparts Report, columns 394-97, we cannot be confident that in (a) Belgium and (b) France on the commemoration the data that we hold is entirely complete and, therefore, of the centenary of the outbreak of the first world war; we are not able to provide an overall total for individuals and if he will make a statement. [62580] captured by UK forces in Iraq and transferred to US forces under the previous Government. The number Mr Robathan: Traditionally, we mark the anniversary subsequently transferred to Iraqi authorities is primarily of the conclusion of a conflict rather than its beginning. a matter for the US and Iraqi Governments. However, it However, given the importance of the centenary of the should be noted that the review concluded UK forces great war, it is likely that a number of anniversaries of exercised appropriately their responsibilities towards all key events from 2014 to 2018, including the beginning captured personnel handed to US custody in Iraq, and of the war, will be marked in an appropriate way. uncovered no evidence of mistreatment. Government consideration of how such events will be Sussex remembered is in its early stages and we in the Ministry of Defence are in discussion with colleagues in other Government Departments on this. In time, these discussions Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for will extend to the Belgian and French Governments. Defence which sites are owned by his Department within the boundaries of (a) Adur district council, (b) Arun Further details will be announced in due course. district council, (c) Chichester district council, (d) Crawley borough council, (e) Horsham district council, (f) Mid Sussex district council and (g) Worthing borough council. [62314] WOMEN AND EQUALITIES

Mr Robathan: A copy of the Ministry of Defence Males: Primary Education sites, by local council, will be placed in the Library of the House. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Minister for Women and USA: Defence Academy Equalities what discussions she has had with the Department for Education on increasing the number of Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for male teachers in primary schools. [61696] Defence (1) what the purpose was of the recent Defence Academy visit to the US; [61356] Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 23 June 2011]: I (2) who participated in the recent Defence Academy have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on visit to the US; [61357] a range of issues. 837W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 838W

Members: Equal Opportunities of schemes. These are set out as follows. Except where otherwise indicated, they were available over the entire Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Minister for Women period: and Equalities what progress she has made on her regional selective assistance, via the Selective Finance for Investment proposals to provide additional support for people in England and (from October 2008) the Grant for Business with disabilities who wish to become hon. Members; Investment schemes, and available to small businesses and those in the assisted areas; and if she will make a statement. [61954] repayable launch investment, a risk-sharing Government investment Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 27 June 2011]: available for the design and development of strategically important We have conducted a public consultation exercise, which civil aerospace projects in the UK. There is no formal scheme, promotion or budget. The provision of repayable launch investment ran from 16 February to 11 May 2011, to seek views on is entirely discretionary, each application is considered on its a range of proposals designed to help to remove barriers merits against a range of established criteria and also by the faced by disabled people who are seeking elected office. Treasury against public expenditure constraints and Government We are currently analysing the responses, and intend to priorities; and announce the strategy later this year. the Automotive Assistance Programme, introduced in January 2009 and closed on 31 December 2010, made possible loan guarantees and exceptionally loans to the automotive sector.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Businesses Apprentices Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the number of Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 24 May (a) enterprises, (b) enterprises with employees and (c) 2011, Official Report, column 642W, on apprentices, enterprises with under 250 employees in the (i) 20% how many individuals will be funded by the allocation most and (ii) 20% least deprived wards in England for to providers to deliver level three and above qualifications each year since 2005. [61097] for those over the age of 24. [62291] Mr Prisk: Not all of the requested information is Mr Hayes: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I available. However, the following table shows the numbers gave on 23 June 2011, Official Report, column 441-2W. of registered enterprises in England in each year that In academic year 2009/10, advanced level apprenticeships were in the 20% most deprived local authorities and the made up 37% of adult starts1. We plan to reshape the 20% least deprived local authority areas. Figures are Apprenticeships programme so that advanced level becomes included for enterprises with less than 250 employees, the level to which learners and employers aspire, and we but this will include some enterprises with no employees expect the proportion of starts at this level to increase as we are unable to separate out these from other over time. enterprises with low employment. 1 Statistical First Release, Data Service: Enterprises in the most and least deprived areas2005-10 http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ 20% most 20% least statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current/ deprived deprived LAs LAs

Business: Finance 2005 Enterprises 289,930 267,085 Enterprises <250 288,105 266,060 Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, employees Innovation and Skills what grants or loans his Department 2006 Enterprises 290,935 269,745 has made available to (a) inward investors and (b) UK Enterprises <250 289,090 268,715 companies to (i) set up a new business and (ii) expand employees or consolidate existing businesses in each of the last five 2007 Enterprises 294,760 275,825 years. [61664] Enterprises <250 292,940 274,795 employees Mr Prisk: In October 2010 the Government introduced 2008 Enterprises 396,605 349,495 the Regional Growth Fund, a fund of £1.4 billion Enterprises <250 394,495 348,355 available over three years to support projects and employees programmes with significant potential for economic 2009 Enterprises 396,510 348,740 growth and for creating additional sustainable private Enterprises <250 394,395 347,555 sector employment and to help those areas and communities employees that are currently dependent on the public sector to 2010 Enterprises 383,620 342,920 make the transition to sustainable private sector led Enterprises <250 381,605 341,750 growth and prosperity. The Fund is open to both UK employees companies and inward investors and to set up new Note: businesses or expand or consolidate existing businesses. There is a discontinuity in the series. Before 2008, UK Business Over the period of the last five years this Department covered VAT registered businesses only, but in 2008, it was extended to include all businesses registered for VAT and/or PAYE. has made grants or loans available to both UK companies Source: and inward investors to set up new businesses or expand ONS UK Business publication and CLG Index of Multiple Deprivation or consolidate existing businesses by means of a number 2010. 839W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 840W

Departmental Redundancy Table 1: Further education learner participation by provider type, 2009/10 General Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, FE All further Innovation and Skills what recent estimate his Department college Sixth education has made of the cost to the public purse of redundancies including form Special learner in its non-departmental bodies (a) in 2011-12 and (b) Age tertiary college colleges participation [61718] over the comprehensive spending review period. 2009/10 Under 682,240 153,850 25,330 1,095,010 19 Mr Davey [holding answer 23 June 2011]: At this 19+ 1,635,590 30,930 137,856 3,540,500 stage it is too early to be able to make an accurate Overall 2,317,830 184,780 163,190 4,635,510 estimate of the total cost to the public purse of redundancies in this Department’s non-departmental public bodies in Notes: 1. Volumes are rounded to the nearest ten. (a) 2011-12 and (b) over the comprehensive spending 2. This data covers participation in learner responsive, apprenticeships, review period. train to gain, adult safeguarded learning and university for industry provision, further education/learner responsive provision includes Fuels: Prices general further education colleges including tertiary, sixth form colleges— agricultural and horticultural colleges and art and design colleges, Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for specialist colleges and external institutions. 3. Total FE provision is not the sum of general FE colleges, sixth form Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has colleges and special colleges. Total FE provision also includes other made of supermarket pricing strategies for road fuel. public funded, private sector public funded and schools. [62538] Source: Individualised Learner Record Mr Davey: None. Competition matters relating to Data showing further education participation and pricing strategies fall to the Office of Fair Trading to achievement by provider type is available as a cascade investigate. of the Further Education and Skills Statistical First Release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on the Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 23 June 2011 and can be found at: Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ made of the effect of supermarket fuel pricing policies statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current/ on independent petrol forecourt operators. [62539] Table 2: Participation by 16 to 18 year olds in education by institution type, 1991, 2001 and 2009 Mr Davey: None. Competition matters related to General FE, tertiary and pricing policies of individual firms fall to the Office of specialist colleges Sixth form colleges Fair Trading. 1991 574,600 84,200 Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 2001 480,700 120,100 Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has 2009 614,200 152,300 had with supermarkets on their road fuel pricing Notes: policies. [62540] 1. Participation is based on snapshot data as at 1 November. 2. Age is based on age at the start of the academic year. 3. Participation includes both full and part-time education. Mr Davey: None. Competition matters related to Source: pricing policies of individual firms fall to the Office of DfE: ‘Participation in Education, Training and Employment by 16-18 Fair Trading. year olds in England’. Further Education: Student Numbers Green Investment Bank

Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for Tony Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills what the average number Innovation and Skills what criteria he plans to use to of students in (a) sixth form and (b) other types of evaluate bids for the creation of the Green Investment further education sector colleges was (i) on the latest Bank. [62668] date for which figures are available, (ii) in 2001 and (iii) in 1991. [62153] Mr Prisk: The location for the headquarters of the Mr Hayes [holding answer 27 June 2011]: Table1as Green Investment Bank will be chosen to enable it best follows shows further education learner participation to deliver its mission. The criteria will be: (1) ability to by provider type for 2009/10 the latest year for which deliver the Green Investment Bank mission, (2) operational full year data is available. We hold data centrally for costs, and (3) access to required talent. Fuller details of 2002/03 onwards, but not for 2001/02 or earlier. these criteria are set out in Section 2.8 of the “Update on the design of the Green Investment Bank” which I Additionally, table 2 as follows shows a snapshot of published on 23 May. This decision will be taken in due participation by 16-18 year olds in education by institution course. type in 1991, 2001 and 2009. This information is published in a Department for Education Statistical First Release called ’Participation in Education, Training and Multinational Companies Employment by 16-18 year olds in England, which can be found at: Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000938/ Business, Innovation and Skills what definition of index.shtml micro-multinational his Department uses. [62746] 841W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 842W

Mr Prisk: BIS does not have a standard definition of (e) Portsmouth city council a micro-multinational. Land at Tipner However, this Department produces annual estimates (f) Southampton city council of the number of enterprises in the UK and for these Coburg Street/Drivers Wharf, Northam purposes a micro firm is classified as one with between Centenary Quay, Woolston zero and nine employees. (g) Isle of Wight council An EU definition of a micro enterprise was adopted on 1 January 2005. It applies to all polices applied Former North Works, East Cowes within the European Economic Area and the criteria Island Technology Park, Whippingham are: Land at Kingston Maximum headcount of nine (employees and self-employed) Land at Three Gates Road, Cowes Maximum annual turnover of ¤2million (euros) Land at Lake Maximum annual balance sheet total of ¤2million (euros). Ryde Business Park Former West Medina Mills, Newport Outer Space Act 1986 No sites owned by SEEDA are within the boundaries of Rushmoor borough council or Winchester city council. Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what progress he Space Technology has made on implementing reform of the Outer Space Act 1986 for the purposes of capping liabilities for Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State UK operators and reducing third party insurance for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his requirements. [62514] Department has made of the recommendation in the Space Innovation and Growth Strategy to provide more Mr Willetts: Officials are reviewing the Outer Space capital guarantees and anchor tenancy agreements, Act 1986 with a view to making changes, as stated in the including amending the policy of the Export Credits Plan for Growth. A number of preliminary meetings Guarantee Department to promote UK manufacturing have taken place between industry and officials and an and satellite financing in the UK. [62515] impact assessment is nearing completion. Further details regarding process and timescales will be published in Mr Willetts: The UK Space Agency is part of the due course. industry-led implementation team that is assessing the Public Sector: Procurement evidence and need for more capital guarantees and will report its findings in due course. The Export Credits Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for Guarantee Department has engaged with companies in Business, Innovation and Skills what information his the UK space sector about the availability of the support Department issues to other Government Departments it can provide. and public bodies on the use of TrustMark accredited UK Trade and Investment firms when letting contracts; and if he will make a statement. [62594] Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: TrustMark (2005) Ltd is responsible for Business, Innovation and Skills what conferences his promoting and raising awareness of the scope and Department has sponsored in support of UK Trade benefits of the TrustMark scheme, which is geared and Industry aboard Royal Navy warships in the last towards the domestic repair, maintenance and improvement 10 years. [62107] sector, rather than the contracting environment. Where appropriate, BIS helps TrustMark to make the necessary Mr Prisk [holding answer 27 June 2011]: From connections with other Departments and public bodies information readily available, since its creation on 1 April 2008, UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security South East England Development Agency: Hampshire Organisation (UKTI DSO) has supported a UK/Brazil Industry and Government conference and Defence and Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Security Industry Day on board HMS OCEAN in Rio Business, Innovation and Skills which sites are owned de Janeiro on 13 and 14 September 2010. by the South East of England Regional Development Agency within the boundaries of (a) New Forest District council, (b) Rushmoor borough council, (c) Test Valley borough council, (d) Winchester city council, (e) CABINET OFFICE Portsmouth city council, (f) Southampton city council Capita and (g) Isle of Wight council. [62310]

Mr Prisk: South East England Development Agency Tristram Hunt: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet (SEEDA) owns the following sites within the boundaries Office how many contracts his Department has awarded of: to Capita since May 2010; and what the (a) monetary (a) New Forest district council: value and (b) net worth was of each contract. [62731] Hythe Marine Park Mr Maude: Since May 2010, the Cabinet Office has (c) Test Valley borough council: awarded three contracts to Capita. Of these, two have Andover Innovation Centre individual values of £3,135 and £9,333 (excluding VAT). 843W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 844W

A third is billed on a volume-usage basis, and at the Value of Value of time of responding, £930 (excluding VAT) had been invoices invoices paid under this contract. Number paid within Number paid after paid within 30-days paid after 30-days Civil Servants: Trade Unions 30-days (£) 30-days (£)

January 1471 23,100,873.55 0 — Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office 2011 what his estimate is of the number of (a) civil servants February 1873 23,453,967.13 11 49,108.17 who have used facility time to attend trade union 2011 conferences, meetings and other events since January March 1684 45,560,823.27 9 49,854.32 2011, (b) hours of facility time used by civil servants 2011 since January 2011 and (c) the cost to the public purse April 1300 95,514,168.03 32 129,725.50 of such time. [57627] 2011 May 1693 18,051,419.53 4 25,223.18 Mr Maude: The authority to grant facilities/time off 2011 to trades union representatives is delegated to departments; 19,353 433,354,564.01 92 809,952.85 therefore individual departments are responsible for these costs. The information requested is not collected EU public Procurement Policy centrally. Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Departmental Billing Office when he expects to publish the Government’s response to the European Commission’s consultation Mr Denham: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet on the modernisation of EU public procurement policy; Office how many invoices received by his Department and if he will make a statement. [62849] were paid (a) on time and (b) late in each month since May 2010; and what the monetary value is of the Mr Maude: The Government’s response to the European invoices paid late. [62491] Commission’s consultation on the modernisation of EU public procurement policy is in the process of being Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office aims to pay all undisputed finalised. invoices within the terms of contract, usually 30 days of Once finalised, the response will be published on the receipt of a valid invoice. The Cabinet Office is additionally Cabinet Office website. It is intended this will be by the committed to the prompt payment code and aims to end of July 2011. pay all correctly rendered invoices as soon as possible within both a five day and 10-day payment target. The Senior Civil Servants Department’s performance against the 30-day target since May 2010 is shown in the following table: Mr Jenkin: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what the (a) name, (b) position, (c) salary and (d) Value of Value of date of appointment is of (i) the Cabinet Secretary and invoices invoices each permanent secretary in the Civil Service in receipt Number paid within Number paid after paid within 30-days paid after 30-days of a salary higher than that of the Prime Minister and 30-days (£) 30-days (£) (ii) each other civil service or other governmental post in receipt of such a salary. [62507] May 1,597 24,112,721.99 3 84,932.37 2010 Mr Maude: As part of the commitment to making June 1,718 27,066,743.46 5 149,319.22 Government more transparent and accountable, 2010 Departments are required to publish structure charts July 1,425 49,561,354.52 6 84,932.37 2010 every six months showing the names, job roles and pay August 1,137 15,806,854.21 6 149,373.82 details for their senior staff, including Permanent Secretaries. 2010 These structure charts include information on individuals September 1306 33,059,244.81 3 12,958.12 whose salary is higher than the Prime Minister’s. 2010 Departmental structure charts can be found at: October 1154 27,361,551.13 6 70,876.06 http://data.gov.uk/organogram. 2010 The names and dates of appointment for Permanent November 1589 31,495,747.28 2 556.90 Secretaries with a salary higher than the Prime Minister 2010 are set out as follows. Cabinet Office does not collect December 1406 19,209,095.10 5 3,092.82 2010 information on the dates of appointment for other senior posts in Departments.

Name Department/Organisation Date in post Salaries in £5,000 bands

O’Donnell, Gus Cabinet Sec and Head of Home Civil Service 1 August 2005 235,000-239,999 Laws, Stephen First Parliamentary Counsel—Cabinet Office 1 August 2006 225,000-229,999 Gray, Bernard Chief Defence Materiel (MOD) 4 January 2011 215,000-219,999 Nicholson, David National Health Service 4 September 2006 210,000-214,999 Davies, Sally Chief Medical Officer 3 March 211 200,000-204,999 845W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 846W

Name Department/Organisation Date in post Salaries in £5,000 bands

Starmer, Keir Crown Prosecution Service 1 November 2008 195,000-199,998 Singh, Dara Job Centre Plus 2 November 2009 185,000-189,999 Bell, David Dept for Education 1 January 2006 180,000-184,999 Chakrabarti, Suma Ministry of Justice 10 December 2007 180,000-184,999 Ricketts, Peter National Security Adviser 12 May 210 180,000-184,999 Brennan, Ursula Ministry of Defence 29 October 2010 180,000-184,999 Devereux, Robert Dept for Work and Pensions 11 January 2011 180,000-184,999 Fraser, Simon Foreign and Commonwealth Office 1 September 2010 180,000-184,999 Ghosh, Helen Home Office 1 January 2011 180,000-184,999 Housden, Peter Scottish Government 22 June 2010 175,000-179,999 Macpherson, Nick HM Treasury 2 August 2005 175,000-179,999 Strathie, Lesley HMRC (CEO) 10 November 2008 170,000-174,999 Homer, Lin Department for Transport 10 January 2011 170,000-174,999 Kerslake, Bob Dept for Communities and Local Government 1 November 2010 170,000-174,999 Sawers, John Secret Intelligence Service 2 November 2009 165,000-169,999 Beddington, John Chief Scientific Adviser—BIS 1 January 2008 165,000-169,999 Wallace, Moira Dept of Energy and Climate Change 13 November 2008 165,000-169,999 Hartnett, Dave 2nd PS, HM Revenue and Customs 10 November 2008 160,000-164,999 Morgan, Gillian Welsh Assembly Government 1 May 2008 160,000-164,999 Allan, Alex Head of Intelligence Assessment and Chair of JIC 10 December 2007 160,000-164,999 Donnelly, Martin Dept for Business, Innovations and Skills 21 October 2010 160,000-164,999 Hill, Bronwyn Dept for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs 28 March 2011 160,000-164,999 Lowcock, Mark Dept for International Development 9 June 2011 160,000-164,999 O’Brien, Una Dept of Health 1 November 2010 160,000-164,999 Evans, Jonathan Security Service 8 April 2007 155,000-159,999 Cunliffe, Jon Head of International Economic Affairs and 26 June 2007 155,000-159,999 Europe—CO Jenkins, Paul Treasury Solicitor 1 August 2006 155,000-159,999 Stephens, Jonathan Dept for Culture Media and Sport 2 October 2006 155,000-159,999 Robinson, Bruce Northern Ireland Civil Service 14 July 2008 150,000-154,999 Heywood, Jeremy No.10 23 January 2008 150,000-154,999 Scholar, Tom 2nd Perm Sec, HM-Treasury 23 March 2009 150,000-154,999 Lobban, lain Government Communications Headquarters 28 August 2008 145,000-149,999 Welland, Mark CSA—MOD (2nd Perm Sec) 7 April 2008 140,000-144,999

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER The overall maximum recoverable amounts for all returning officers and counting officers that could be claimed were £2,206,955 for the 2010 UK parliamentary Returning Officers: Expenditure election and £2,469,258 for the referendum on the voting system. Andrew Selous: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister However, as the figures listed in the charges order are how much funding central Government provided for maximum recoverable amounts, we will only know the the payment of each returning officer for their services actual totals claimed once all claims have been received in conducting (a) elections and (b) the referendum on from returning officers/counting officers and settled for the alternative vote in May 2011. [62351] both polls. Voting Rights: Prisoners Mr Harper: The maximum recoverable amounts which returning officers/counting officers are entitled to claim for their services and expenses in conducting national Priti Patel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what elections and referendums are set out in statutory orders assessment he has made of the implications for the UK which are made by the Minister prior to the date of the of the decisions reached at the 1115th meeting of the poll. Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe in respect of the voting rights of prisoners; and what The relevant orders are the Parliamentary Elections position the UK representative at the meeting took on (Returning Officers’ Charges) Order 2010 and the the resolution and decision made in respect of the Referendum on the Voting System (Counting Officers’ execution of the Hirst (No.2) v. United Kingdom and Regional Counting Officers Charges) Order 2011 judgement. [62543] which were made respectively for the 2010 UK parliamentary election and the referendum on the voting Mr Harper: The decision in respect of Hirst (No. 2) v. system which took place earlier this year. These can be the United Kingdom was adopted by the Committee of found at: Ministers at their 1115th meeting without discussion. It http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/830/contents/made reflects the Court’s judgments in that case and the case http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/1099/article/3/made of Greens and MT v. the United Kingdom. As there 847W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 848W was no discussion or resolution adopted there was no Paid on Paid outside opportunity for the UK delegate to state a position. time 10 days Monetary value

Priti Patel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister (1) September 53 1 609.12 with reference to the decision reached at the 1115th 2010 meeting of the Committee of Ministers of the Council October 2010 76 0 — of Europe in respect of the voting rights of prisoners November 87 1 465.30 and the execution of the Hirst (No.2) v United Kingdom 2010 judgement, whether he has begun preparation of the December 75 1 3,666.00 action plan to submit to the Committee of Ministers; 2010 and when he expects the action plan to be submitted to January 2011 78 0 — the Committee of Ministers; [62544] February 2011 77 0 — (2) what his policy is on proposing amendments to March 2011 64 0 — the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders April 2011 95 2 242.39 Bill to make provision to extend the franchise to prisoners; May 2011 52 0 — what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Justice on this issue; and if he will make a statement. Devolution [62648] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Harper: The Government are considering the Wales what recent discussions she has had with the next steps and I will inform the House when decisions First Minister on the remit of a commission on devolution on the way forward have been reached. and funding for Wales. [61867]

Priti Patel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if he Mrs Gillan: I refer the hon. Gentleman, to my answer will place in the Library a copy of each item of to the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) correspondence between the Government and each earlier today. institution of the Council of Europe in respect of the voting rights of prisoners. [62545] Energy: River Severn Mr Harper: Information submitted to the Committee Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales of Ministers by the UK Government on prisoner voting what recent discussions she has had with the Secretary rights is published on its website of State for Energy and Climate Change on that http://www.coe.int/T/CM/home_en.asp Department’s feasibility report on tidal energy options in the Severn estuary; and if she will make a statement. [62003] WALES Mrs Gillan: I have discussed the feasibility report on Policing and Justice tidal energy in the Severn estuary with Ministers from the Department of Energy and Climate Change. 13. Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what recent discussions she has had with ministerial While the study does not set out a strategic case for colleagues on policing and justice in Wales. [61876] public investment in a tidal energy scheme in the Severn estuary at this time, it does not rule out a barrage Mr David Jones: Effective policing and an efficient scheme as an option in the future, or rule out consideration justice system in Wales are of utmost importance to this of any proposals that may come forward from private Government. My right hon. Friend and I have had investors. regular discussions with Cabinet and ministerial colleagues on matters affecting policing and justice, and law and Renewable Energy order in Wales. Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Departmental Billing what recent discussions she has had with the First Minister of the Welsh Government on the research and Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales development of renewable sources of energy in Wales; how many invoices received by her Department have and if she will make a statement. [62000] been paid (a) on time and (b) late in each month since May 2010; and what the monetary value is of the Mrs Gillan: I have regular discussions with the First invoices paid late. [62482] Minister on energy policy and I welcome the fact that Mr David Jones: My department has received the Wales is playing a key role in finding new and innovative following number of invoices each month since May low carbon technologies to help us meet the challenges 2010: we face. Wales has a number of excellent research and Paid on Paid outside development facilities engaged in research on renewable time 10 days Monetary value energy. May 2010 60 1 689.47 The approval by the Secretary of State for Energy June 2010 87 1 5,111.25 and Climate Change’s for Tidal Energy Limited’s 1.2 MW July 2010 84 1 11,074.19 ‘Deltastream’ test device off the coast of Pembrokeshire August 2010 65 0 — is a further indication of the high quality research that is going on in Wales. 849W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 850W

Wind Power Capita

Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for what recent discussions she has had with the First Energy and Climate Change how many contracts his Minister of the Welsh Government on planning powers Department has awarded to Capita since May 2010; for on-shore wind generation projects in Wales; and if and what the (a) monetary value and (b) net worth she will make a statement. [62001] was of each contract. [62726] Mrs Gillan: I have regular discussions with the First Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and Minister about issues that affect Wales, including energy Climate Change has awarded the following contracts to policy. the Capita group companies since May 2010. The amounts The current planning system provides a streamlined shown represent payments made to date and not the full regime that minimises delays and ensures investor life costs which are not available: confidence. Capita Business Services Limited: two contracts with individual payment values to date of; £3,855 and £42,855. The total net worth is £46,710. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Capita Resourcing Limited: four contracts with individual payment values to date of £40,824, £1,225, £47,947 and £30,704. Biofuels: Timber The total net worth to date is £120,700. Capita Symons Limited: one contract with payments to date of Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for £37,496. Energy and Climate Change if he will estimate the Capita Health Solutions: one contract with payments to date amount of wood biomass which was burnt in each year of £254. since 2007; what total subsidy was provided for biomass under the renewables obligation in each year since 2007; Carbon Emissions: Industry and how much such subsidy will be provided in each year from 2011 to 2020. [62692] Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: Biomass generators reported to Ofgem Energy and Climate Change (1) what types of mitigation that some 2.14 million tonnes of wood were combusted measures he is considering to protect energy-intensive for energy in 2009-10. This total consists of those industries from the effect of carbon price support in feedstocks identified by generators as being sourced addition to those announced in the 2011 Budget; from forestry wood, recycled wood, wood and miscanthus [62611] blend, or unspecified wood. Figures for 2010-11 are (2) when he expects to conclude his Department’s expected to be published by Ofgem during the summer. consultation with the Department for Business, Comparable information is not available before April Innovation and Skills and energy intensive industries 2009. on protecting those industries from the effect of a Regarding the total subsidies provided for biomass carbon floor price. [62612] (both wood and non wood sources) under the renewables obligation (RO) I refer the hon. Member to my answer Gregory Barker: The Government are considering a of 10 March 2011, Official Report, column 1294W, wide range of mitigation measures to ensure British regarding incentives for biomass projects between 2002-03 industry retains its competitiveness during the transition to 2009-10. to a low-carbon economy. We expect to conclude our The number of ROCs issued in 2010-11 is not yet joint analysis with the Department for Business, Innovation confirmed by Ofgem but preliminary reports suggest and Skills in time to announce a package of measures just under 10 million renewable obligation certificates by the end of the year. (ROCs) were issued for all biomass technologies under the RO last year (ie dedicated, CHP, co-firing, landfill Electricity Generation gas, sewage gas and advanced conversion technologies). The value of the 2010-11 RO buyout price is £36.99 Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State giving a total value of some £370 million for 2010-11 for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer biomass generation. of 7 June 2011, Official Report, column 103W, on In terms of future subsidies, we anticipate that new electricity generation, when he expects to announce dedicated biomass capacity in 2011-12 could result in whether the electricity market reform proposals will be an additional 0.8 million ROCs of support, increasing subject to the control framework for DECC-levy to around 3.2 million ROCs in 2012-13. Assuming the funded spending. [60263] same ROC value as 2010-11, this would represent additional support of £29.6 million in 2011-12 and £118.4 million Charles Hendry: If the EMR proposals are classified in 2012-13. as tax and spend and yet are deficit neutral then they It is not possible to estimate the total support that will fall within the control framework. The Office for will be provided to biomass under the RO beyond April National Statistics (ONS) is responsible for the classification 2013. RO support rates for biomass electricity from of transactions, and provides the final decision on April 2013-March 2017 will be decided later this year, classification where Government requests this or where following consultation this summer. Biomass electricity it decides it needs to consider a policy. A final decision generators can also benefit from support under forthcoming would only be made once the full details of a policy electricity market reform arrangements. have been confirmed by Government. 851W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 852W

In some cases the Government do treat policies as tax Charles Hendry: The Government recognise that a and/or spending ahead of a formal ONS decision. This variety of operational issues could arise in individual would happen where the Government judges it can have cases during the rollout of smart meters. Most of these reasonable confidence regarding the classification. In issues are well understood and are dealt with by industry the case of the EMR proposals it remains too early for as part of business as usual activities. The Government Government to make any such judgment, and/or determine will ensure that the scale and nature of these issues are whether it will request a formal ONS classification well understood by all parties and will seek assurance decision, as the full details of the policy are still to be that appropriate plans and processes are put in place to confirmed. address them. The March 2011 Government Response to the Prospectus Electricity Industry: Theft Consultation proposed to establish a stakeholder group to facilitate the identification and discussion of these Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for issues. We are considering the terms of reference and Energy and Climate Change what information his membership for this group and will publish further Department holds on the (a) number of metal thefts details shortly. or attempted metal thefts from the electricity industry in each region, (b) cost of repairs arising from such European Project Bond Initiative theft or attempted theft, (c) number of fatalities and injuries of people engaging in such theft, (d) number of prosecutions for such theft or attempted theft, (e) Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for number of convictions for such theft or attempted theft Energy and Climate Change what discussions his and (f) fines levied by the regulator in each region and Department has had with the European Commission for each energy supplier as a result of loss of electricity on the European Project Bond Initiative. [58891] supply due to such theft or attempted theft since 2005. [62603] Justine Greening: I have been asked to reply. The Government’s discussions with the European Charles Hendry: The Department does not collect Commission on the EU’s Project Bond Initiative are led information concerning: the number of instances; the by HM Treasury. Officials from the Department have cost of repairs; the number of fatalities or injuries; the held technical discussions with officials from the number of prosecutions or convictions or the value of Commission and from the European Investment Bank the fines levied by Ofgem, resulting from metal thefts or on the financial aspects of the proposal. attempted metal thefts experienced by electricity network The Government are willing to consider a greater role operators. for the EIB and the private sector in relation to infrastructure The Energy Networks Association on behalf of the investment, in order to deliver a smaller EU budget energy sector manage a Security Incident Reporting overall. System (SIRS) database that collects data on security incidents experienced by electricity network operators. Garages and Petrol Stations The vast majority of incidents recorded relate to metal theft but can also include, battery theft, vandalism, suspicious persons and suspicious vehicles. The SIRS Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State database was commissioned on 1 September 2009, between for Energy and Climate Change (1) what information this date and 31 January 2011 there have been 4,925 his Department holds on the number of independent recorded security incidents. filling stations in the UK in (a) 2000 and (b) 2010; [62650] Energy: Finance (2) what the Government’s policy is on the future of the independent petrol and diesel filling station sector. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy [62655] and Climate Change how much funding for energy sector research and development his Department has Charles Hendry: Data held by DECC indicate that provided to the (a) private and (b) public sector in the there were 7,310 and 5,312 independently owned fuel latest period for which figures are available. [60146] retailer sites in 2000 and 2010 respectively. Independent forecourt operators make a significant Charles Hendry: The Department of Energy and contribution to ensuring the availability of fuel across Climate Change provided £50.8 million towards energy the UK. research and development during the financial year There is a diverse, open and competitive fuel retail 2010-11. £1 million of this went to various non-private market which is regulated by the Office of Fair Trading, sector bodies such as universities, Research Councils through enforcement of competition law, ensuring that and the Forestry Commission. The remaining £49.8 million markets work well for the benefit of consumers. was spent with the private sector. Energy: Meters Natural Gas

Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for and Climate Change when he plans to establish the Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has stakeholder group on the operational aspects of smart made of the (a) number of wells required for commercial meter roll-out; what its remit will be; and how many extraction of the same amount of (i) shale gas and (ii) members the group will have. [62230] conventional gas, (b) risks presented by contaminated 853W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 854W and abandoned sites where shale gas production is natural gas: Fylde, whether future applications for stopped and (c) availability of mechanisms to mitigate hydraulic fracturing operations for the extraction of such risks; and if he will make a statement. [62810] shale gas will also be subject to a geomechanical study, along with further work by the British Geological Charles Hendry: Shale gas has not as yet been Survey and relevant academic institutions, before any commercially proven in the UK and it is too early to operations are permitted; and if he will make a make useful estimates of the relative numbers of wells statement. [62819] which would be required as compared to conventional gas. Charles Hendry: The geomechanical study currently There is a robust regulatory regime in place administered being carried out is looking specifically at the geological by DECC, the Health and Safety Executive, the respective and seismic properties of the rock strata and shale in environment agencies, and local planning authorities to and around Poulton-le-Fylde, and any linkages between ensure that drilling sites are properly managed during the recent seismic tremors and hydraulic fracturing the exploration and production phase and are properly operations in the area. The study and its implications decommissioned and left environmentally safe once will be reviewed before any decision on the resumption development and production has ceased. of these hydraulic fracture operations is made. The information requirements for the consideration Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for of future fracturing operations will depend on the findings Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the current study and on the geological setting of any of the average volume of (a) water, (b) chemical work proposed. additives and (c) waste water generated in a hydraulic fracturing well for shale gas; whether he plans to (i) Renewable Energy prohibit and (ii) require public disclosure of the use of any chemicals used for hydraulic fracturing; and if he Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for will make a statement. [62811] Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions he has had with representatives of the anaerobic digestion Charles Hendry: Operations, including water volumes, sector since (a) publication of the proposed tariff changes are dependent on the parameters of a specific project. in March 2011 and (b) confirmation on 9 June 2011 of There is only one active shale gas exploration project the tariff changes to take effect from 1 August 2011. taking place in the UK at present—Cuadrilla’s operations [61215] in Lancashire. For this project I understand that Cuadrilla anticipate using approximately 1,600 cubic metres of Gregory Barker: DECC Ministers and officials have water for each hydraulic fracture operation. had discussions with various anaerobic digestion (AD) The hydraulic fracturing fluids used to date by Cuadrilla producers and installers, gas transporters, farming and are made up as follows: fresh water and sand—99.96% industry trade associations, research bodies and Members and polyacrylamide friction reducers—0.04%. Other of Parliament. A range of issues have been covered, potential additives include hydrochloric acid, typically including advice on getting started with AD; problems at a concentration of 0.125%, or biocide at a concentration with injecting biomethane into the gas grid; the drafting of 0.005% if required to purify the local water supply. of the AD Strategy and Action Plan, which was published earlier this month and sets out the actions to be taken to The amount of waste water generated will again be overcome the key barriers to deployment; and the project dependent. Issues surrounding public disclosure consultations on the Feed-in Tariffs (FITS) Scheme. of chemicals used in hydraulic fracture are a matter for Following the publication of the Government’s decision the respective environment agencies. Cuadrilla publishes on the fast-track review of the FITs scheme, officials all of its chemicals on its website. contacted key stakeholders to explain the decision on the tariff changes. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will make it his policy to implement a moratorium on shale gas activity in the UK; and if he will make a statement. [62814] HOME DEPARTMENT

Charles Hendry: The UK has a long history of onshore Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Tooting gas exploration, the range of techniques employed in shale gas drilling and testing operations is broadly Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for the similar to those used for orthodox gas production, and Home Department how many interim antisocial behaviour there is a strong regulatory safety and environmental orders are to be withdrawn in Tooting constituency regime in place administered by the Health and Safety under her proposals to end such measures. [62126] Executive, local authorities and the relevant environmental agencies to ensure that potential risks to safety or the James Brokenshire: The antisocial behaviour order environment are properly managed. On the basis of data collection records details of full antisocial behaviour available information, the Department sees no need for orders issued only. It is not possible to provide data a moratorium on shale gas activities in the UK. relating to interim antisocial behaviour orders. We have recently consulted on changes to the tools and powers Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for to tackle antisocial behaviour—including the antisocial Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer to behaviour order and are currently considering the responses. the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys The details of how the new tools and powers will work of 10 June 2011, Official Report, columns 549-50W, on will be set out when bringing forward legislative proposals 855W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 856W following that consultation. In the interim, powers to http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- obtain and use antisocial behaviour orders remain in statistics/crime/crime-statistics-internet/ full force and effect. Practitioners should continue to Numbers of burglary offences recorded by the police in the Warrington use such powers where appropriate. CSP, 2008-10 Offence 2008 2009 2010 Arrests Burglary in a dwelling 815 879 723 Burglary in a building other 850 746 779 Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the than a dwelling Home Department how many people were arrested for Total burglary 1,665 1,625 1,502 a qualifying offence under section 7 of the Crime and Security Act 2010 between 2006-07 and 2009-10; and Crime Prevention: Business how many such people were charged with an offence. [62199] Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps she is taking to reduce Mrs May [holding answer 27 June 2011]: Section 7 of the number of small businesses affected by crime. the Crime and Security Act 2010 provision was brought [61998] into effect on 7 March 2011. It is not possible to separately identify arrests for James Brokenshire: The Home Office co-chair the qualifying offences under section 7 of the Crime and National Retail Crime Steering Group, the national Security Act 2010 from data held centrally. partnership to tackle retail crime. Membership is drawn from across the retail sector, but includes small business Asylum: EU Countries representation from the Federation of Small Businesses and the Association of Convenience Stores in particular. Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for the The Steering Group is delivering a work plan focused Home Department if she will offer support to the on the key crime priorities that affect retailers. This governments of countries of southern Europe to improve includes strengthening local partnerships between businesses their administrative capacity to deal with asylum cases; and law enforcement agencies; taking steps to develop and if she will make a statement. [62681] safe working and trading environments; supporting designing out crime techniques and working with the Damian Green: The Government are committed to criminal justice system to ensure that effective sanctions offering the kind of support to which my hon. Friend and deterrents to retail crime are available. refers. The National Retail Crime Steering Group also considers In the last six months, we have sent a number of business sector interaction with the Government’s reform asylum experts to Greece as members of EU teams programme, including the recent consultation on “A coordinated by the European Asylum Support Office More Effective Response to Antisocial Behaviour” and (EASO). Three further UK experts are due to be deployed the introduction of Police and Crime Commissioners. to Greece in the next few months under the auspices of EASO to support the delivery of improvements to the Crime Prevention: Young People asylum system there. Separately, the UK has given £238,500 to UNHCR for projects related to asylum Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the reform in Greece. Home Department how much funding her Department We have also recently assisted Malta with language has allocated to the Positive Futures programme in (a) analysis to help their authorities determine asylum seekers’ 2011-12, (b) the preceding three years and (c) the countries of origin more effectively, and have made remaining years of the comprehensive spending review clear both to Malta and Italy our willingness to provide period. [61787] further practical support should it be necessary. Mrs May [holding answer 23 June 2011]: The total Burglary: Warrington Home Office allocation for the Positive Futures programme in 2011-12 is £5,707,000. Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the The allocations for the preceding three years were as Home Department how many offences of burglary follows: were recorded in Warrington North constituency in each of the last three years for which figures are available. £ [62369] 2010-11 5,999,000 James Brokenshire: Offences recorded by the police in 2009-10 5,999,000 England and Wales are not available at constituency 2008-09 5,988,469 level. Figures are collected at community safety partnership These figures include funding for the management (CSP) level, which broadly equate to local authority and monitoring and analysis services. areas. The Warrington North constituency comes within Crimes of Violence: Havering the Warrington CSP and the requested figures on recorded burglaries are given in the table. Local police recorded Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for crime statistics broken down by offence group and local the Home Department what steps she is taking to tackle authority area are available on the Home Office website violent crime in the London borough of Havering. via the following web address: [62111] 857W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 858W

James Brokenshire: Operational decisions regarding It is important to note that these substances were violent crime in Havering are for the Commissioner of brought under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 in December Police of the Metropolis and the London borough of 2009, part way through the reporting period. The results Havering to agree between them. were published in July 2010 and are available at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- Cybercrime statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb1310/ hosb1310 Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the Estimates based on a full year of data for all ‘legal Home Department what recent estimate she has made high’-type drugs included in the BCS (including of the cost to the UK of cyber crime. [62659] mephedrone) will be available in the ‘Drugs Misuse Declared 2010-11’ report, to be published in July 2011. Mrs May [holding answer 28 June 2011]: The Cost of The Home Office has not commissioned or evaluated Cyber Crime, a report published in February 2011 by any research on the effects on users of any new psychoactive the Office of Cyber Security and Information Assurance substances (termed ‘legal highs’). The Home Office has in the Cabinet Office, in partnership with Detica, estimates requested that the Advisory Council Misuse of Drugs the most likely cost to the UK economy as £27 billion (ACMD) consider a number of individual new psychoactive per annum. substances (and where appropriate, the family of related Demonstrations: Buckingham Palace substances). The ACMD reports have made an assessment of the harms of these substances to users based on available evidence as well as recommendation for their Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for control under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 and can be the Home Department what discussions she had with found at: (a) the Metropolitan Police and (b) the Royal Parks http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/agencies-public-bodies/acmd/ Agency on protests Republic plans to hold outside reports- research/ Buckingham Palace. [62032] Extradition: USA Nick Herbert: There were no such discussions with the Metropolitan police or the Royal Parks Agency Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the about the protest by Republic on 25 June 2011. Home Department what recent assessment she has Domestic Violence: EU Law made of the operation of the UK-US Extradition Treaty. [61960]

Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mrs May [holding answer 27 June 2011]: I refer the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 13 June right hon. Member to the answer of 18 October 2010, 2011, Official Report, column 653W, on domestic Official Report, column 521W. The US-UK extradition violence, which articles of the Council of Europe treaty is one of the matters being considered by the Convention on preventing and combating violence extradition review panel. The panel is expected to report against women and domestic violence she supports in back to the Government by the end of the summer 2011. their present form. [62397] Fixed Penalties Lynne Featherstone: Pursuant to the answer of 13 June 2011, Official Report, column 653W, the process of considering the articles is continuing and we are not yet Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for the in a position to make the final decision on signature and Home Department how many people were rearrested (a) (b) ratification. We are reviewing whether the requirements after the issue of a fixed penalty notice, (c) of the Convention are best placed to support our existing non-endorsable fixed penalty notice and penalty work to tackle violence against women and girls and notice for disorder within six months of the issue of the domestic violence in the UK. notice in each financial year since 2007-08; and in how many such cases the individual was subsequently dealt Drugs: Misuse with (i) by the courts and (ii) by the issue of a further penalty notice. [61416] John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nick Herbert: Information on re-arrests is not collected Home Department (1) what estimate her Department centrally. has made of the number of young people regularly using substances which may result in legal highs; [61736] The Home Office holds statistics on the number of fixed penalty notices issued for motoring offences and (2) what recent research her Department has (a) their outcomes. The Ministry of Justice holds statistics commissioned and (b) evaluated on the effects on on fixed penalty notices for disorder. users of substances which may provide legal highs. [61738] From these data, it is not possible to separately identify persons issued with further fixed penalty notices James Brokenshire: Preliminary findings from the after an original offence. 2009-10 British Crime Survey (BCS) ‘Drug Misuse Published data on notices issued and outcomes, taken Declared’ report (based on six months data) showed from the Home Office bulletin ‘Police Powers and that 1.2% of young people aged 16 to 24-years-old used Procedures 2009-10’ and the Ministry of Justice bulletin ‘Spice’ in the last year (or another synthetic cannabinoid), ‘Criminal Statistics, England and Wales’, are available 1.4% used BZP (Benzylpiperazine) and 0.5% used GBL/ in the Library of the House. For convenience, copies of GHB (Gammabutyrolactone/Gammahydroxybutrate). the most recent published data for both types (including 859W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 860W those unpaid fines pursued by the courts), from 2007 Fixed penalty notices for motoring offences by result, 2007 to 2009 onwards (calendar year) are provided in the tables. Outcome 2007 2008 2009

Fixed penalty notices for motoring offences by result, 2007 to 2009 Process issued2 6,228 6,140 6,355 Outcome 2007 2008 2009 No further action 52,407 44,069 40,535 taken Paid within 1,796,779 1,563,456 1,365,238 28-days Outcome not 11,677 9,070 6,251 finalised Payment accepted 581,446 510,719 501,736 after 28-days Total notices 2,649,187 2,319,121 2,091,243 Fine registration 200,650 185,667 171,128 1 Unpaid fines increased by 50% after deadline is passed. certificate issued1 2 Unpaid fines referred to courts for prosecution.

Table 2.4: Number of penalty notices for disorder issued to all persons aged 16 and over, by age group and year, 2005-091 England and Wales Of those paid Year and age Number Total paid in Paid in full Paid in full group issued full % within 21 days % outside 21 days %

2005 16-17 year olds 12,454 7,024 56 5,182 42 1,842 15 18 and over 134,027 70,223 52 51,641 39 18,582 14 All ages 146,481 77,247 53 56,823 39 20,424 14

2006 16-17 year olds 19,598 11,096 57 8,135 42 2,961 15 18 and over 181,599 93,450 51 68,456 38 24,994 14 All ages 201,197 104,546 52 76,591 38 27,955 14

2007 16-17 year olds 19,246 11,096 58 8,437 44 2,659 14 18 and over 188,298 95,829 51 73,696 39 22,133 12 All ages 207,544 106,925 52 82,133 40 24,792 12

2008 16-17 year olds 14,497 8,368 58 6,371 44 1,997 14 18 and over 161,667 82,921 51 64,873 40 18,048 11 All ages 176,164 91,289 52 71,244 40 20,045 11

2009 16-17 year olds 11,737 6,961 59 5,383 46 1,578 13 18 and over 158,656 83,155 52 64,451 41 18,704 12 All ages 170,393 90,116 53 69,834 41 20,282 12

Other outcomes Court Year and age Fine hearing PND Potential Outcome group registered % requested % cancelled % prosecution % unknown %

2005 16-17 year olds 4,549 37 144 1 266 2 157 1 314 3 18 and over 57,630 43 1,444 1 2,171 2 1,648 1 911 1 All ages 62,179 42 1,588 1 2,437 2 1,805 1 1,225 1

2006 16-17 year olds 7,598 39 125 1 486 2 250 1 43 0 18 and over 80,198 44 1,355 1 3,782 2 2,460 1 354 0 All ages 87,796 44 1,480 1 4,268 2 2,710 1 397 0

2007 16-17 year olds 7,120 37 99 1 638 3 289 2 4 0 18 and over 82,937 44 1,154 1 4,611 2 3,691 2 76 0 All ages 90,057 43 1,253 1 5,249 3 3,980 2 80 0

2008 16-17 year olds 5,474 38 82 1 362 2 205 1 6 0 861W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 862W

Other outcomes Court Year and age Fine hearing PND Potential Outcome group registered % requested % cancelled % prosecution % unknown %

18 and over 70,681 44 980 1 3,727 2 3,309 2 49 0 All ages 76,155 43 1,062 1 4,089 2 3,514 2 55 0

2009 16-17 year olds 3,898 33 61 1 297 3 509 4 11 0 18 and over 63,748 40 836 1 3,889 2 6,748 4 280 0 All ages 67,646 40 897 1 4,186 2 7,257 4 291 0 1 Percentages may not add up due to rounding

Foreign Workers: EU Nationals control who have no access to public funds are prevented from accessing income-related and non-contributory Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for the benefits by section 115 of the Immigration and Asylum Home Department pursuant to the answer of 21 June Act 1999. 2011, Official Report, column 191W,on foreign workers: There is no evidence that the absence of a standard EU nationals, what (a) representations and (b) definition of habitual residence has implications for correspondence she has received on extension of the immigration policy. Nevertheless, the UK Border Agency transitional arrangements for payment of benefits to works in cooperation with relevant Government migrant workers from EU accession states. [62055] Departments, including the Department for Work and Pensions, in managing the impact of immigration on Damian Green: The Secretary of State for Work and public services. Pensions’ earlier reply addressed the question of benefits. I also refer my hon. Friend to the answer given by the The transitional arrangements to which that reply referred Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, are concerned specifically with access to the labour the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris market. The labour market restrictions currently applied Grayling) on 21 June 2011, Official Report, column to Bulgarian and Romanian nationals may be extended 192W. The Department for Work and Pensions is to the end of 2013 if to do otherwise would result in responsible for conducting checks on habitual residence. serious labour market disturbance. The Government have asked the Migration Advisory Committee to review the labour market case for maintaining the restrictions Knives: Crime and it will be appropriate for the Committee to consider any representations which are relevant to its terms of reference. Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department which police forces have received funding allocated for the prevention of knife crime Human Trafficking: EU Law since April 2011; and how much funding was allocated in each case. [61785] Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department by what date she plans to implement Mrs May [holding answer 23 June 2011]: A total of each requirement of the EU Directive on Human £3.75 million is being made available over two years, Trafficking. [61788] from April 2011, to three police forces areas where more than half of the country’s knife crime occurs—London, Mrs May [holding answer 23 June 2011]: The Greater Manchester and the West Midlands. In London, Government are applying to the European Commission the money is to be paid via the Greater London Authority. to opt in to the EU Directive on human trafficking. Subject to its acceptance, we will implement the requirements of the directive within two years. Metals: Theft

Immigration Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what progress she has made in Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for the developing a plan to tackle the issue of metal theft; and Home Department what assessment she has made of if she will make a statement. [58840] the implications for immigration policy of the absence of a standard definition of habitual residency. [62056] James Brokenshire: The Government are concerned at the extent of metal theft and the serious impact it can Damian Green: Access to income-related benefits have on the national infrastructure and on local administered by the Department for Work and Pensions communities. The Home Office is working closely with is subject to the habitual residence test. This includes the police (through the ACPO Metal Theft Working meeting the requirement to have a right to reside in the Group) to tackle this criminality and to reduce the UK. This test is intended to exclude from these benefits stolen goods market that drives it. We are currently those who do not have a settled intention to remain in exploring what other action can be taken to reduce the UK. In addition, those subject to immigration metal theft. 863W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 864W

National Crime Agency Support and Advice Functions This will include reporting to the UK Border Agency Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the any relevant change in an asylum seekers circumstances, Home Department whether the introduction of a assistance to asylum seekers in completing applications Border Police Command within the National Crime for financial support, assistance in responding to requests Agency will involve a transfer of responsibilities from for information made by the UK Border Agency, finding the UK Border Agency. [62790] reputable legal help and accessing statutory and other voluntary services. Mrs May [holding answer 28 June 2011]: The National Move-On Functions Crime Agency Plan sets out the Government’s plan for creating a Border Policing Command. For those receiving refugee status supplying impartial advice to such refugees about the options available to Police: Borders them including, but not limited to, assistance with accessing statutory support such as housing provision. Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the Capacity Building Functions Home Department what recent progress she has made Establishing what services are being provided regionally on the Government’s plans for a Border Police Force. and working with other organisations to ensure that [62299] services are delivered in a co-ordinated way. Addressing any gaps in service provision. Mrs May [holding answer 27 June 2011]: The National Crime Agency (NCA) Plan sets out the Government’s Developing local community support and social cohesion plan for creating a Border Policing Command. by supporting voluntary services to asylum seekers, The NCA Plan can be found at: supporting community and Refugee Community Organisations. Assisting in the introduction and/or http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/crime/nca- enhancement of non UK Border Agency funded support creation-plan and advice services for asylum seekers in the region through the provision of information, education and Police: Helicopters training and by developing partnerships. (b) Wrap-Around Services Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police helicopters have This service involves the supply of advice and assistance been available to police forces (a) in each year since to asylum seekers who require support in the form of 2010 and (b) in 2011 to date. [62296] accommodation and financial assistance. It involves the performance of a number of processes Mrs May [holding answer 27 June 2011]: In 2010, the connected with an asylum seeker’s stay in Initial police forces of England and Wales had access to 31 Accommodation. These include: helicopters operating from 29 bases. In 2011, there are Assisting asylum seekers in the completion of applications for currently 30 helicopters operating from 28 bases. support This is in connection with support for both accommodation and financial assistance which is provided by separate providers Third Sector and UK Border Agency respectively. Briefing asylum seekers Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for This includes an orientation briefing which explains the Home Department what the nature is of the (a) asylum and support processes and the rights and one-stop services and (b) wrap-around programmes responsibilities of asylum seekers in the UK. This is funded by her Department and provided by charities in supported through the provision of UK Border Agency the last three years. [60578] paper material and a dispersal briefing (supplying information connected to the asylum seekers long stay/ Damian Green [holding answer 17 June 2011]: The dispersal accommodation) information is as follows: Question and Answer/Problem Solving Sessions (a) One Stop Service (OSS) This service involves the provision of independent advice by voluntary sector These provide information about asylum and support- organisations to asylum seekers and refugees within the related matters and also information about processes UK. relating for example to racial harassment, domestic violence and accessing health advice. The OSS focuses on providing assistance to asylum seekers who either are or have been supported by the Supporting UK Border Agency processes UK Border Agency. This is achieved both through This facilitates the different processes (asylum, legal direct service provision by the Voluntary Sector assistance, health) that asylum seekers are required to organisations involved and indirectly by them facilitating engage with while in Initial Accommodation. capacity-building in other organisations which supply services to asylum seekers and refugees. Annual Workplans are submitted by the Voluntary Sector organisations providing the services. These OSS services include: Workplans detail how the above requirements will be Initial Assessment Functions This relates to determining met. The UK Border Agency monitors actual performance the requirements of the asylum seeker/refugee and the against plan and feeds back the results to the relevant most appropriate action to be followed thereafter. Voluntary Sector partners. 865W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 866W

HEALTH General Practitioners: Greater London

Aortic Aneurysm: Screening Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many GPs there are per head of population in (a) Neil Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Bexley, (b) Greenwich, (c) Bromley and (d) West Health (1) what steps his Department has taken to Kent primary care trust area. [62430] encourage NHS trusts to apply to take part in the NHS Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm Screening Programme; Mr Simon Burns: Data for the four primary care [62409] trusts (PCTs) as requested, as at 30 September 2010, are (2) what provision the NHS has made for screening shown in the following table. This excludes retainers of men aged over 65 for abdominal aortic aneurysms. and registrars. [62410] All general practitioners All GPs (excluding (GPs) (excluding retainers and registrars) Mr Simon Burns: Since its announcement in 2008, the retainers and registrars) headcount per 100,000 Department headcount1 population has funded the implementation of the NHS Abdominal Bexley Care 118 52.2 Aortic Aneurysm Screening Programme and remains Trust committed to ensuring it is fully implemented across Bromley 215 69.3 England by the end of March 2013. PCT Greenwich 157 69.4 “The Operating Framework for the NHS in England Teaching 2011-12” sets out expectations for the NHS to support PCT Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm Screening. Specifically it West Kent 415 61.1 states that primary care trusts are expected to: PCT continue screening for programmes that are currently operational; 1 The new headcount methodology for 2010 data is not fully comparable with previous years data due to improvements that make implement screening as planned for the 2011-12 phases; and it a more stringent count of absolute staff numbers. Further develop a robust implementation plan for 2012-13, ensuring information on the headcount methodology is available in the surgery providers fulfil the requirements for implementation of Census publication. Headcount totals are unlikely to equal the sum screening. of components. Notes: Following the review of evidence by the UK National 1. Data as at 30 September 2010. Screening Committee, it concluded that screening should 2. GP per head of population figures have been calculated using be offered routinely to 65-year-old men, however men Office for National Statistics resident population estimates. over 65 could self refer into the programme. All local Data Quality: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care seeks to programmes are accepting self referrals from men over minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but 65 and a large number of these have been screened responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing following successful local publicity initiatives supported the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve data by the national programme. quality where changes impact on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant Baby Care Units: Finance analyses. Sources: 1. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care General Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for and Personal Medical Services Statistics Health how much funding he plans to provide to 2. Office for National Statistics, 2009 Final Mid-Year Population existing neonatal networks in (a) 2012-13, (b) 2013-14 Estimates (2001 census based), Adjusted May 2010 to reflect revisions to migration methodology and (c) 2014-15. [62372] Hampshire and Sussex Anne Milton: Funding for neonatal networks is not set centrally by the Department It is for the national health service to determine how best to allocate funding, Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for including funding for neonatal services. Health (1) which sites his Department and its sponsored bodies own within the boundaries of (a) Basingstoke and Deane Borough Council, (b) East Hampshire District Departmental Billing Council, (c) Eastleigh Borough Council, (d) Fareham Borough Council, (e) Gosport Borough Council, (f) Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Hart District Council and (g) Havant Borough Council; how many invoices received by his Department have [62315] been paid (a) on time and (b) late in each month since (2) which sites his Department and its sponsored May 2010; and what the monetary value is of the bodies own within the boundaries of (a) New Forest invoices paid late. [62484] District Council, (b) Rushmoor Borough Council, (c) Test Valley Borough Council, (d) Winchester City Council, Mr Simon Burns: The Department paid 204,519 invoices (e) Portsmouth City Council, (f) Southampton City in the period from 1 May 2010 to 31 May 2011. Of Council and (g) Isle of Wight Council; [62316] these, 1,070 (0.52%) were paid later than the contracted (3) which sites his Department and its sponsored 30 days. The total value of invoices paid late in the bodies own within the boundaries of (a) Adur District period was £44.8 million. Council, (b) Arun District Council, (c) Chichester 867W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 868W

District Council, (d) Crawley Borough Council, (e) learning disabilities, and in helping patients to access Horsham District Council, (f) Mid Sussex District wider or more specialised NHS services through the Council and (g) Worthing Borough Council. [62317] thousands of referral decisions they make on a daily basis. Mr Simon Burns: The Department or its sponsored bodies are the freehold owners of properties in the Home Care Services: Older People council areas are as follows: Basingstoke and Deane Borough Council: Mr Swayne: To ask the Secretary of State for Health St Michael’s Hospice, Aldermaston Road, Basingstoke whether he plans to respond to the Equality and Human New Forest District Council: Rights Commission report on care for people aged over Land at Michigan Way, Totton 65 in England; and if he will make a statement. [62340] Southampton City Council: Paul Burstow: There can be no place for poor quality Southampton Blood Centre, Coxford Road, Southampton care in care services. Dignity and respect are the cornerstones The Department or its sponsored bodies do not own of good-quality care. properties in the other council areas referred to. We welcome the interim findings of the Equality and Health and Social Care Bill Human rights Commission report on home care. We will respond to the final report when it is published in November this year. This report and others will help Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for drive up standards in care and expose bad practice. Health what legislative precedents he considered to inform his decision to propose the recommittal of certain We will publish a White Paper setting out the parts of the Health and Social Care Bill to the Public Government’s plans for reforming social care—this will include measures designed to improve the quality of Bill Committee. [62323] care and support services. Mr Simon Burns: Parliament agreed to a partial recommittal of the Health and Social Care Bill. I refer Maternity Services the hon. Member to my speech of 21 June 2011, Official Report, column 198. Andrew Bingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the role of Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State midwife-led birthing centres; and if he will make a for Health what discussions he held with the Prime statement. [62417] Minister on the proposed recommittal of some of the clauses of the Health and Social Care Bill to the Public Anne Milton: Midwife-led birthing centres provide Bill Committee prior to the Bill’s recommittal. [62518] care for women assessed as being at low risk of complications. The Department has commissioned the Mr Simon Burns: The Secretary of State for Health National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit to undertake a meets with the Prime Minister on a regular basis to research study, entitled ‘Birthplace’, which will compare discuss a range of issues. the outcomes of births planned at home, in different types of midwifery unit, and in hospital units with Health Services: Greater London obstetric services. This is a three-year study, with a report expected in autumn 2011. Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will estimate the number of health care professionals Maternity Services: High Peak who will (a) retire, (b) take voluntary redundancy and (c) lose their jobs in (i) London, (ii) the London Andrew Bingham: To ask the Secretary of State for Borough of Newham and (iii) West Ham constituency Health (1) if he will take steps to ensure that the in the next 12 months. [62374] engagement and consultation on the future of the Corbar Birthing Unit in High Peak will be (a) open to Mr Simon Burns: This information is not collected and (b) responsive to the views submitted by the local centrally. The hon. Member may wish to approach the community; [62416] organisations concerned for the information requested. (2) how many mothers were transferred from the Health Services: Learning Disability Corbar Birthing Unit in High Peak to other hospitals due to complications during birth in each of the last Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health five years. [62419] what assessment he has made of the effects of the introduction of GP consortia on services for those with Anne Milton: The information requested on how learning disabilities. [62708] many mothers were transferred from the Corbar Birthing Unit in High Peak to other hospitals due to complications Paul Burstow: The Health and Social Care Bill 2011 during birth in each of the last five years is not collected Impact Assessment summarises the benefits of handing by the Department. commissioning responsibility to clinical commissioning While consultation on national health service groups. General practitioners (GPs) see 800,000 people reconfiguration is a matter for the local NHS, the a day/300 million people a year and play a pivotal role Secretary of State for Health has outlined new strengthened in helping to coordinate national health service care. criteria he expects decisions on NHS service changes to The GP role is particularly prominent for people with meet. All service reconfiguration proposals must: 869W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 870W

demonstrate support from general practitioner commissioners; Hospital and Community Health Services medical staff within the ensure arrangements for public and patient engagement, including psychiatry specialty group and non-medical qualified nursing and local authorities should be further strengthened; scientific, therapeutic and technical staff within psychiatry areas of work in England, London Strategic Health Authority area and ensure greater clarity about the clinical evidence base underpinning organisations in West Ham constituency—as at 30 September each proposals; and year take into account the need to develop and support patient choice. Headcount

Mental Health Services 2007 2008 2009 20101

Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Health England Medical staff in 9,554 9,739 9,934 9,731 what research his Department has (a) commissioned the psychiatry and (b) evaluated on the effects of cognitive behavioural group of therapy on the underlying causes of anxiety and depression specialties in children and adults. [62525] Qualified nursing 56,117 56,310 55,851 54,145 Paul Burstow: The Department’s National Institute staff2 for Health Research (NIHR) is funding a range of research on cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) for Qualified 8,452 8,889 9,848 10,195 anxiety and depression in children and adults. For scientific, example, the NIHR Health Technology Assessment therapeutic and programme is funding a £2.6 million trial of brief technical staff3 psychodynamic psychotherapy, CBT and treatment as usual in adolescents with moderate to severe depression attending routine child and adolescent mental health clinics. London Medical staff in 2,329 2,348 2,408 2,377 the psychiatry Mental Health Services: Greater London group of specialties

Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Qualified nursing 10,631 10,576 10,012 9,667 (1) if he will estimate the change in funding in real staff2 terms for mental health services in (a) London, (b) the London borough of Newham and (c) West Ham Qualified 2,485 2,639 3,033 3,096 constituency in the next four years; [62373] scientific, therapeutic and (2) how much funding was allocated to mental health 3 services in (a) London, (b) the London borough of technical staff Newham and (c) West Ham constituency in the last four years. [62376]

Paul Burstow: This information is not held centrally. Newham Medical staff in 1212 University the psychiatry It is currently for primary care trusts to commission Hospital group of services to meet the health care needs of their local NHS Trust specialties populations, taking account of local and national priorities. PCTs recurrent revenue allocations are not broken down Qualified nursing 1100 by service or policy area. staff2 The hon. Member may, therefore, wish to contact the chief executive of Newham PCT for further information Qualified 0000 about PCT funding for local mental health services. scientific, therapeutic and 3 Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Health technical staff how many mental health professionals were employed by the NHS in (a) London, (b) the London borough of Newham and (c) West Ham constituency in the last four years. [62375] Newham Medical staff in 0000 PCT the psychiatry Mr Simon Burns: Information is not collected in the group of specialties format requested.

The following table provides the numbers of medical Qualified nursing 6774 staff within the psychiatry specialty group and non-medical staff2 qualified nursing and scientific, therapeutic and technical staff within psychiatry areas of work in the London Qualified 40 35 36 29 Strategic Health Authority area, Newham University scientific, Hospital National Health Service Trust and Newham therapeutic and Primary Care Trust (PCT) for each of the last four technical staff3 years. 871W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 872W

1 The new headcount methodology for 2010 data is not fully comparable listen to views of the public, staff and patients. In with previous years data due to improvements that make it a more addition to these events, Ministers and Future Forum stringent count of absolute staff numbers. Headcount totals are unlikely to equal the sum of components. Further information on the members will have listened to many other individuals headcount methodology is available in the census publication at the through their own networks and through informal following address: conversations; we do not however have records of all www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/publications/010_Workforce/nhsstaff0010/ such engagements. Census_Bulletin_March_2011_Final.pdf 2 Community Psychiatry, Other Psychiatry, Community Learning A copy of the NHS Listening exercise table of events Disabilities, Other Learning Disabilities qualified nursing staff. has been placed in the Library. 3 Clinical psychology, Psycho-therapy qualified scientific, therapeutic and technical staff. John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Data Quality: The national health service information centre for health and social pursuant to his contribution of 14 June 2011, Official care seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect or missing and Report, column 646, on NHS Future Forum, whether invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations the principles and rules for co-operation and competition providing the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve include the preferred provider model. [62871] data quality. Where changes impact on figures already published, this is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant Mr Simon Burns: The Principles and Rules for analyses. Co-operation and Competition (PRCC) were revised in Sources: July 2010 to make clear the Government’s commitment 1. The National Health Service Information Centre for health and to any qualified provider. Principle five of the PRCC social care Medical and Dental Workforce Census sets out that: 2. The National Health Service Information Centre for health and social care Non-Medical Workforce Census “commissioners and providers should promote patient choice, including—where appropriate—choice of Any Willing Provider Monitor and ensure that patients have accurate, reliable and accessible information to exercise more choice and control over their health Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for care.” Health when he plans to publish details of the future role of Monitor. [62390] NHS: Conditions of Employment Mr Simon Burns: On 23 June 2011 the Government tabled proposed amendments to the Health and Social Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State Care Bill in relation to the future role of Monitor. This for Health what recent representations he has received followed the Government’s response to the Future Forum on the potential effects of his planned reforms of the report. There will be opportunity for further debate and NHS on the (a) pay and (b) terms and conditions of scrutiny of Monitor’s role during the public Bill Committee. NHS staff. [62278]

NHS Future Forum Mr Simon Burns: Since 1 January 2011 there have been five parliamentary questions relating to the potential Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State effects of the planned reforms on the pay or terms and for Health what process he followed to appoint the conditions of national health service staff. independent members of the NHS Future Forum. We are not able to say how many items of correspondence [62324] we have received as the Department does not index correspondence at a level to allow this. Departmental Mr Simon Burns: In order to take full advantage of records show that, since 1 January 2011, we have received the natural break in the passage of the Health and over 3,500 items of correspondence about the modernisation Social Care Bill, the Government assembled an independent of the NHS. This figure represents correspondence advisory panel—the NHS Future Forum—at pace. received by the Department’s central correspondence The guiding principle for appointments to the NHS team only. Future Forum was to ensure that, while not designed to The Department is also working in partnership with be a representative body, its membership included a NHS employers and trade unions to develop a HR wide range of different voices from and around the Framework to support the implementation of the reforms. national health service. While members brought their own professional expertise, their task was to engage with staff, patients, communities NHS: Future Forum and organisations from across the NHS, to reflect on that engagement and to make recommendations for John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health improvements to the legislation where necessary. (1) if he will estimate the monetary value of office space and facilities made available by his Department John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to the NHS Future Forum and its staff between 4 April what the (a) time, (b) date and (c) location was of and 14 June 2011; [62824] each event attended by (i) Ministers and (ii) members of the NHS Future Forum as part of the NHS listening (2) what estimate he has made of the monetary value exercise. [62852] of support provided by staff of his Department to the NHS Future Forum; [62825] Mr Simon Burns: As part of the listening exercise, the (3) what the costs were of (a) room hire and (b) ministerial team, along with members of the NHS catering in respect of his Department’s NHS listening Future Forum, have attended 252 listening events, to events; [62827] 873W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 874W

(4) pursuant to his contribution of 14 June 2011, fulfil its role in delivering better healthcare outcomes Official Report, column 657, on NHS Future Forum, and to act as an engine for economic growth. It will under what budget headings the costs of the NHS achieve this by supporting development and adoption listening exercise were incurred. [62845] of new healthcare or health service related technologies, techniques and processes, whilst providing a market for Mr Simon Burns: The costs of the NHS listening the new products and services and supporting business, exercise were recorded under the budget headings of especially small to medium enterprises, to deliver this. event related cost, printing and expenses. The Government have also committed an additional The office space and facilities provided for the NHS £10 million over the next two years to small business Future Forum and its support staff by the Department research initiative to address healthcare challenges, make was from within existing office space and facilities available it easier for firms, and small firms in particular, to in the Department and added no additional cost to the access the NHS. public purse. However, we need to go further and faster if we are to The secretariat support for the NHS Future Forum effectively address significant challenges facing health provided was from within existing Department staffing and social care—now and in the future. Innovation is an levels and added no additional cost to the public purse. essential tool in helping address the challenges of an Up until 23 June 2011, the costs of room hire and ageing population, chronic disease, health inequalities catering in respect of NHS Future Forum events during and rising public expectations—especially when resources the NHS listening exercise for which the Department are constrained. has been invoiced, are £27,248.63. The Department was not invoiced separately for room hire and catering in NHS: Labour Mobility relation to these events. NHS: Innovation Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many staff who have been made redundant by primary care trusts have been re-employed within the Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS (a) directly and (b) on a temporary or contract Health what steps he takes to (a) promote and (b) basis in the last 12 months for which figures are fund innovation in the NHS. [62429] available. [62521] Mr Simon Burns: The national health service has a proud history when it comes to innovation and is recognised Mr Simon Burns: The estimated number of staff who as a leader in the development of innovative techniques have been made redundant by primary care trusts between and technologies—stretching back across its 63-year 1 January 2010 and 31 December 2010 and have been history. However, whilst the NHS is recognised as a re-employed within the NHS on a permanent basis is world leader at invention, the spread of those innovations 40 and on a fixed term basis is 20. within the NHS has often been too slow, and sometimes These estimates are based on data extracted from the even the best of them fail to achieve widespread use. Electronic Staff Record Data Warehouse and therefore As United Kingdom public services face a tougher do not include staff who may have been re-employed by financial climate, innovation has a vital role to play to general practices, or Moorfields Eye Hospital NHS continue improving the quality of care for patients, and Foundation Trust or Chesterfield Royal Hospital NHS support the NHS as a major investor and wealth creator Foundation Trust. in the UK. This is why in the plan for growth we announced that NHS: Manpower the NHS chief executive would review how the adoption and diffusion of innovations could be accelerated across Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State the NHS. Working in consultation with industry, academia for Health what estimate he has made of the potential and other interested parties the NHS chief executive effect of his planned reforms to the NHS on the will produce a report in November 2011 that will inform number of staff employed by the NHS in each of the the strategic approach to innovation in the modernised next five years; and if he will make a statement. [62234] NHS. However, there is already a substantial amount of Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not work underway to create conditions for innovation to currently available. flourish including; Regional Innovation Funds to innovation As part of the 2011-12 operating planning process, in front line staff, Innovative Technology Adoption the Department is collecting plans and projections on Procurement programme to encourage NHS-wide adoption the Hospital and Community Health Services workforce of high impact innovative medical technologies NHS which include the forecast pay bill up to March 2015 innovation challenge prizes to reward ideas that tackle from strategic health authorities. This information will big health and challenges now and in the future. be published in the summer. We also know that adoption is dependent on a culture that embraces innovation, the coalitions modernisation NHS: Reorganisation agenda will encourage an NHS that is more agile, more dynamic, more open to ideas and better at adopting Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State new technologies. for Health what consultation he held on NHS reform Subject to legislation, the NHS Commissioning Board prior to the publication of the White Paper Equity and will have new legal duties to promote research and excellence: Liberating the NHS; and if he will make a innovation in the NHS. This will enable the NHS to statement. [62322] 875W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 876W

Mr Simon Burns: As set out in the Government’s Number of people in the United Kingdom on the Organ Donor Code of Practice on Consultation, published by the Register as at 23 June 2011 by source of registration previous administration in July 2008, consultation by Number of the Government should take place when there is clarity Source class registrations Percentage of total about what is being proposed. The Government therefore Driver and Vehicle 8,744,996 48.3 held a three-month consultation on the White Paper as Licensing Agency soon as the White Paper was published in July last year. General practitioner 4,162,359 23.0 registration Boots 1,251,952 6.9 John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Online 606,659 3.4 (1) what travel and subsistence costs were incurred by Leaflet 1,070,710 5.9 (a) Future Forum members and (b) officials Organ donor line 80,792 0.4 supporting the Future Forum in relation to the NHS Other 2,188,054 12.1 listening exercise; [62826] Total 18,105,522 (2) what arrangements he put in place for payment of Source: members of the NHS Future Forum; and whether NHS Blood and Transplant these arrangements included payment of locum costs Patients: Safety for clinical staff. [62846] Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Simon Burns: The Department did not put in for Health pursuant to the answer of 21 June 2011, place arrangements to pay members of the NHS Future Official Report, columns 262-3W, on NHS Trusts, Forum, who volunteered their time to support the NHS which of the NHS trusts subject to the national review Listening Exercise. However, the Department put in of costs associated with private finance initiative place arrangements so that members of the NHS Future schemes have raised patient safety concerns related to Forum could claim travel and subsistence relating to their financial situation with (a) the strategic health their attendance at events during the NHS Listening authority and (b) his Department. [62505] Exercise. With prior agreement, NHS Future Forum members Mr Simon Burns: Work on the tripartite formal were also able to claim costs of locum cover where this agreements between all the remaining national health was necessary to enable their attendance at Forum service trusts, strategic health authorities and the meetings. Department has not yet been completed. When these have been finalised and the agreement has been signed In addition, the Department made arrangements to by all parties, they will be published locally.Each agreement compensate the Association of Chief Executives of will identify the issues each national health service trust Voluntary Organisations, a registered charity, for loaning faces and the actions that will establish them as sustainable their chief executive, Sir Stephen Bubb, for the period providers of high quality health care. This will include the NHS Listening Exercise so that Sir Stephen was those who are part of the current review of the issues able to act as chair for the Forum’s workstream on associated with private finance initiative schemes. choice and competition. More generally, there will be no ‘lowering of the bar’ To date (up until 23 June 2011) the expenses and in respect of standards required by Monitor to achieve locum fees invoiced by the 45 members of the NHS foundation trust status, particularly in the way that Future Forum, which were incurred during the eight-week quality of care is considered during the application period of the NHS Listening Exercise, are £12,937.00; process. the breakdown of which is £9,794.70 for expenses and £3,142.30 for locum costs. The entitlements to claim Primary Care Trusts: Expenditure were in line with the departmental standard rates and the sums have been met from the Department’s allocated Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health budget. how much his Department has (a) spent to date and Travel and subsistence costs for staff supporting the (b) allocated for future expenditure for (i) redundancy NHS Future Forum were in line with the departmental payments, (ii) pay in lieu of notice and (iii) additional standard rates and were met by the Department’s existing payments to pension schemes for staff from primary staffing budget. care trusts. [62520] Mr Simon Burns: Audited 2010-11 data on primary care trust (PCT) redundancy payments is not yet available. Figures will be available once the NHS (England) Organs: Donors Summarised Accounts are audited, signed and laid before Parliament in late July. Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Impact Assessments (IA) published alongside how many people have registered for organ donation the Health and Social Care Bill in January 2011, copies using driving licence application forms since the of which have already been placed in the Library, estimated the costs of modernising the NHS and reducing introduction of that facility. [62396] administration costs. This included the redundancy costs associated with reducing the size of the workforce. The Anne Milton: The information is provided in the redundancy cost estimates include redundancy payments, following table. pay in lieu of notice and payments to pension schemes. 877W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 878W

The cost estimate associated with these redundancies “The Operating Framework for the NHS in England was in the range of £772 million to £1,288 million in 2011-12” sets out that, to improve outcomes from PCTs and strategic health authorities (SHAs). radiotherapy treatment for cancer patients, commissioners There is no central money set aside for redundancy should develop local plans to ensure that access rates to costs in PCTs and SHAs. The Operating Framework for radiotherapy and the use of advanced radiotherapy the NHS in England 2011-12 requires PCTs to hold 2% techniques, such as IMRT, are appropriate for their of their revenue allocation to support the costs of populations. The National Cancer Action Team has change, including the redundancy costs associated with been working with providers to support the development modernising the NHS. This equates to £1,600 million in of IMRT services and, at this time, 20 of the 28 cancer 2011-12 and, potentially, a similar sum in 2012-13. Not networks have at least one provider offering IMRT. all of this resource will be required for redundancy It is anticipated that national currencies for radiotherapy costs. and IMRT will be introduced for contracting in April 2012, with prices agreed locally. Feedback from the Psychiatry service on the use of these currencies will inform decisions on when it would be appropriate to introduce a mandatory Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for national tariff, which is likely to be no earlier than Health (1) what consultation the National Institute for 2013-14. Health and Clinical Excellence had with psychotherapy The Radiotherapy Clinical Information Group will professionals in developing its guidelines on psychotherapy; publish a report on the first full year of radiotherapy [62288] data collection shortly. This will show the progress (2) what consultation with professional organisations made on the collection of IMRT data as part of the in the field of psychotherapy the National Institute for National Radiotherapy Dataset. Health and Clinical Excellence undertook when developing its guidelines on psychotherapy. [62289]

Paul Burstow: This is a matter for the National Institute INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) as an independent body. I have asked the chief executive of Departmental Offices NICE to write to the right hon. Member with this information. A copy of that letter will be placed in the Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for International Library. Development what the total is of (a) staffing and (b) other costs of his Department’s offices in (i) Belgium, Radiotherapy (ii) Italy, (iii) France, (iv) Switzerland and (v) the US in each of the last five years. [62413] Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many cancer networks include at least Mr Duncan: The Department for International one radiotherapy centre that offers intensity-modulated Development (DFID) does not maintain its own offices radiotherapy; [62365] in Belgium, Italy, France, Switzerland or the United (2) what estimate his Department has made of the States. However, there is a small number of DFID staff proportion of breast cancer patients suitable for working in these countries to represent UK interests treatment with intensity-modulated radiotherapy; and promote the Government’s international development [62366] priorities in a number of international organisations. These include a range of United Nations agencies (Italy, Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for France, Switzerland and the US), the Organisation for Health (1) what estimate he has made of the proportion Economic Cooperation and Development (France), the of commissioners who have developed local plans to European Union (Belgium), the Global Alliance for ensure the use of intensity-modulated radiation therapy Vaccines and Immunisation (Switzerland), and the Global where appropriate, as set out in the NHS Operating Fund to fight Aids, Tuberculosis and Malaria (Switzerland). Framework 2011-12; [62516] The following table sets out the costs of this (2) with reference to Improving Outcomes: A representation in 2009-10 and 2010-11. Current reporting Strategy for Cancer, what progress his Department has systems do not provide consistent financial information made in developing a tariff for (a) radiotherapy and for financial years prior to 2009-10. (b) intensity-modulated radiation therapy; and when £000 he expects to set those tariffs; [62517] Total Total (3) pursuant to the answer of 25 October 2010, staffing Total other running Official Report, column 127W, on radiotherapy, what Year Country costs1 costs2 costs recent progress the National Radiotherapy Dataset project team has made on improving the collection of 2009-10 Belgium 419 27 446 data on intensity-modulated radiotherapy provision. Italy 176 393 569 [62519] France 219 551 770 Switzerland 200 0 200 Paul Burstow: Expert opinion has suggested that United States 80 128 208 30%, of breast cancer patients would benefit from a simple form of Intensity Modulated Radiotherapy (IMRT). A trial is underway to establish the evidence base for the 2010-11 Belgium 227 39 266 use of IMRT to treat breast cancer. Italy 161 250 411 879W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 880W

Mr O’Brien: The Department for International £000 Development (DFID) is ensuring equitable access to Total Total health services by improving the coverage and quality staffing Total other running Year Country costs1 costs2 costs of health services, especially in rural areas. In particular, we are investing heavily in services which will improve France 196 221 417 maternal health outcomes and tackle malaria. Switzerland 134 0 134 To make sure these services reach the poorest women United States 170 130 300 and their children, we are also helping remove the 1 Staffing costs include salaries and allowances to DFID staff. barriers that stop these vulnerable groups from accessing 2 Other costs include contributions to office running costs and payments care. For example, over the last year DFID has supported to locally employed staff. the launch of free health care for pregnant women and children in Sierra Leone. As a result, the number of Developing Countries: Health Services children under five receiving health care has tripled and the number of maternity emergencies treated in health Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for units has increased by 150%. International Development if he will increase the proportion of official development assistance that is allocated as Developing Countries: Malnutrition budget support in order to assist developing countries in covering (a) health workers’ salaries and (b) other Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for recurrent costs of their healthcare systems. [62367] International Development what steps his Department is taking to reduce the number of children under the age Mr Andrew Mitchell: We do not have a central process of five in developing countries who die in conditions to determine the amount of aid to allocate through where undernutrition is a major contributory factor. different aid modalities. We make decisions based on [62393] each country context. The Bilateral and Multilateral Aid Reviews, of March Mr O’Brien: UK support over the next four years will 2011, presented an ambitious re-orientation of Britain’s stop 10 million more children going hungry in countries development assistance: from focusing on inputs to with a high burden of malnutrition in South Asia and focusing on results and value for money. Sub-Saharan Africa. A growing portfolio of nutrition- related programmes will focus on reaching pregnant Country Offices in their Operational Plans (2011-12 women and children under the age of five. Programmes to 2014-15) have presented how they will achieve include treatment for severe acutely malnourished children development results to change the lives of the poor. and prevention for example by providing support for We will provide budget support when we assess that it breastfeeding and nutrition supplements. Other programmes can achieve better results and value for money than address the underlying causes of undernutrition, such other ways of delivering aid. The Department for as lack of access to food, via cash transfer and agriculture International Development (DFID) estimates that around programmes. A research programme will address evidence 25% of its aid to health is spent on human resources for gaps on the most cost-effective solutions. health. The UK wants an effective international response to tackle undernutrition and is active in the Scaling Up Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Nutrition initiative (SUN). SUN supports countries to International Development what steps his Department develop their own comprehensive nutrition programmes is taking to support developing countries which are aimed at tackling undernutrition in the first ″1000 days″ expanding and strengthening their health workforce from conception to child’s second birthday. (a) under the Millennium Development Goals and (b) as part of the Global Strategy for Women and Children’s Health. [62368] EDUCATION Mr O’Brien: The UK Government fully recognise the central importance of health workers in accelerating Academies progress towards our health goals, and are strongly committed to strengthening health systems, and to Oliver Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for supporting health workers as part of this. The Department Education what plans he has to fund the refurbishment for International Development (DFID) estimates that and rebuilding of academies; and if he will make a around 25% of its aid to health supports human resources statement. [60750] for health. We will continue to help countries to develop their Mr Gibb: There are a number of Academies that have own healthcare systems in a way that suits their needs had capital funding approved for new or refurbished and contexts, including support to country efforts to buildings through the Building Schools for the Future build and maintain health worker capacity. programme. Projects of this nature, which started under the previous Government and are now confirmed, will Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for continue to completion. International Development what steps his Department Priority is being given to meeting urgent building is taking to ensure equitable access to health services condition needs and the basic need for new pupil places for the poorest women and their children in (a) because of local demographic changes. An £85 million developing countries and (b) rural areas of developing Academies Capital Maintenance Fund is available for countries. [62394] the purposes of addressing urgent building condition 881W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 882W needs. The first round of applications to the fund closed Table 1: Children looked after whose placement orders ceased during on 27 May 2011. Partnerships for Schools is currently the year ending 31 March1,2,3,4 years ending 31 March 2007 to 2010, assessing these applications and will notify Academies coverage: England of the outcome by the end of June. Numbers 2007 2008 2009 2010 The Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), Children who ceased to be 10 20 40 20 ordered a comprehensive review of all the Department’s looked after while subject capital programmes last year, which reported on 8 April to a placement order, other than those who were 2011. The Department’s response to the review, which adopted5 is planned for later this year, will inform how we provide 1 Figures exclude children looked after under an agreed series of capital funding to Academies in future years, including short term placements. any for new buildings and refurbishment projects. 2 Historical data may differ from older publications. This is mainly due to the implementation of amendments and corrections sent by Academies: Sheffield some local authorities after the publication date of previous materials. 3 All figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for 4 Placement orders were introduced in December 2005 and replaced Education pursuant to the contribution of the Minister Freeing orders which unlike placement orders cannot be rescinded. 5 This includes children who ceased to be looked after for the of State of 16 June 2011, Official Report, column 938, following reasons: died, care taken over by another local authority h on academies (funding), which schools in the city of the UK, returned home to live with parents, residence order granted, Sheffield area will become academies under his special guardianship order granted, moved into independent living proposals. [61350] arrangement or ceased to be looked after for any other unspecified reason. Source: Mr Gibb: On 16 June 2011, Official Report, column SSDA 903 938, during the debate on academy funding, I referred to the announcement by the Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Business: Education Heath (Michael Gove), to extend the academies programme to underperforming primary schools, particularly the 200 worst-performing primary schools in England. The Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Department does not intend to publish a list of these if he will estimate the proportion of young people who schools. participated in enterprise awareness activities in schools in each year since 2005. [61093] Adoption Mr Gibb: The Department does not collect this Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for information. Education how many placement orders have ended An independent evaluation of the Enterprise Education before adoption has been granted in each year since programme was published in July 2010. 2004-05. [61695]

Tim Loughton [holding answer 23 June 2011]: The CAFCASS: Manpower number of children whose placement orders ended before an adoption order was granted is shown in table 1, Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Education along with the number of children who ceased to be (1) how many people of each (a) grade and (b) looked after while subject to a placement order other responsibility were employed by the Children and Family than those who were adopted. Placement orders were Court Advisory and Support Service in 2010; [62669] introduced in December 2005; therefore the first full year for which this information is available is the year (2) how many staff (a) joined and (b) left the ending 31 March 2007. Children and Family Court Advisory and Support In addition to the children whose placement orders Service (CAFCASS) in each CAFCASS region in 2010. ended before an adoption order was granted, there were [62670] 190 children in the year ending 31 March 2010 who were no longer placed for adoption but continued to be Tim Loughton: These questions relate to operational looked after under a placement order. matters for which CAFCASS is responsible. CAFCASS’s Information on the number of children no longer chief executive, Anthony Douglas has written to the placed for adoption was available for the first time in hon. Member to address the issues raised. A copy of his 2010. letter has been placed in the House Libraries. Table 1: Children looked after whose placement orders ceased during Letter from Anthony Douglas, dated 28 June 2011: the year ending 31 March1,2,3,4 years ending 31 March 2007 to 2010, I am writing to you in response to the two Parliamentary coverage: England Questions that you tabled recently: Numbers PQ62669—Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd): To ask 2007 2008 2009 2010 the Secretary of State for Education, how many people of each (a) grade and (b) responsibility were employed by Children and Children whose placement 10 40 60 80 Family Court Advisory and Support Services in 2010. order ceased and continued to be looked Cafcass does not employ people on a grade basis; the table after under a different below breaks down employees by responsibility as at 31 December legal status 2010. 883W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 884W

Ordinary written PQs Head count 31 December Percentage Grade 2010 Less then five 10 days or longer Business Support such as Office 313 Met days and five to after the Managers and administrators parliamentary 10 days after the parliamentary Cleaners 7 deadline date for answer deadline Family Court Advisors 1,110 October 52075 Bank FCAs and Sessional Workers 170 2010 who work on a case by case basis November 71387 Heads of Service 32 2010 Senior Managers 22 December 0694 Service Managers 137 2010 Specialist Staff with specialist skills 139 January 11683 such as Finance, HR, etc. 2011 Family Support Workers 94 February 1297 2011 Total 2,024 March 12 51 37 PQ 62670—Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd): To ask 2011 the Secretary of State for Education, how many staff (a) joined April 2011 66 24 9 and (b) left Children and Family Court Advisory and Support May 2011 24 58 18 Services (CAFCASS) in each CAFCASS region in 2010. Starters and leavers by region January to December 2010 Region Starters Leavers Named day PQs Percentage North 44 109 Less then five 10 days or longer Central 79 102 Met days and five to after the South 99 104 parliamentary 10 days after the parliamentary National Office 32 34 deadline date for answer deadline Total 254 349 May 2010 34 44 22 June 2010 18 44 38 Departmental Written Questions July 2010 8 21 70 August n/a n/a n/a 2010 Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education September 11 9 80 to what proportion of parliamentary questions for written 2010 answer his Department has responded (a) on the date for October 6678 answer, (b) less than five days after the date for answer, 2010 (c) between five and 10 days after the date for answer November 92566 and (d) more than 10 days after the date for answer in 2010 each month since May 2010. [61763] December 41185 2010 Tim Loughton: The Department aims to answer named January 22573 2011 day questions on the date specified by the Member and February 6390 ordinary questions within five sitting days. Where it is 2011 not possible to provide a full answer within the usual March 18 60 21 deadline, the Department believes it will usually be 2011 preferable to provide a full answer a few days late than April 2011 33 45 22 to provide an incomplete answer. May 2011 26 45 29 The management information on PQ performance is recorded to capture PQs that have been answered within These figures are drawn from the Department’s PQ the deadline; answered between six and 10 days of the tracking system. The figures have been drawn from the deadline; and 10 days after the deadline. Therefore this Department’s database which, as with any large scale table combines the answers to parts (b) and (c) of the recording system, is subject to possible errors with data question. entry and processing. Ordinary written PQs Education Maintenance Allowance Percentage Less then five 10 days or longer Met days and five to after the Nadhim Zahawi: To ask the Secretary of State for parliamentary 10 days after the parliamentary Education how many young people received more than deadline date for answer deadline £1,000 in education maintenance allowance in 2009-10. [60533] May 2010 25 61 14 June 2010 2 35 63 Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s July 2010 1 31 68 Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education August n/a n/a n/a maintenance allowance for the Department for Education. 2010 Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, has written September 2692 2010 to the hon. Member for Stratford on Avon with the information requested. 885W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 886W

Letter from Peter Lauener dated 21 June 2011: Free School Meals I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question that asked; Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for ″How many young people received more than £1,000 of education Education what the average cost per meal was of free maintenance allowance in 2009-10.″ school meals in each local authority in each of the last The number of young people who received weekly payments five years. [61021] during the 2009-2010 academic year totalling more than £1000 was 153,798. Including bonus payments the figure was 296,802. Mr Gibb: This information is not collected by the Department. However, the School Food Trust publishes information annually on meal prices in primary, secondary English Baccalaureate and special schools. This information for 2009-10 can be found in Table 10 of the “Fifth annual survey of take up of school lunches in England” report, available at: Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.schoolfoodtrust.org.uk/school-cooks-caterers/ Education if he will monitor the (a) effect on the reports/fifth-annual-survey-of-take-up-of-school-meals-in- number of schools offering full course GCSE Religious england Education and (b) other effects of his proposed The survey does not specifically ask for free school arrangements for the humanities element of the English meal prices, but the Trust advises that the price of a baccalaureate. [61448] paid-for school meal can be used to indicate the value of a free school meal. Mr Gibb [holding answer 22 June 2011]: We do not Free School Meals: Kent currently collect systematic data on detailed subject option choices offered by schools or the choices pupils Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for make on their GCSE subjects. However, the Department Education how many pupils were eligible for free school has work under way to assess whether and how the meals in (a) Kent and (b) Dartford constituency in the English baccalaureate has influenced the GCSE choices latest period for which figures are available. [61941] made in schools from September 2011. We will use this, together with a range of other information sources, to Mr Gibb: The information requested is shown in the inform future policy development. table.

State-funded primary and secondary schools1, 2, 3 and special schools4: Free school meal eligibility5, 6. As at January 2011. In Kent local authority and Dartford parliamentary constituency Stale-funded primary schools1, 2 Stale-funded secondary schools1, 3 Special schools4 Number of Number of Number of pupils pupils pupils known to known to known to be eligible Percentage be eligible Percentage be eligible Percentage for and known to be for and known to be for and known to be claiming eligible for claiming eligible for claiming eligible for for free and claiming for free and claiming for free and claiming Number on school for free school Number on school for free school Number on school for free school roll5 meals5, 6 meals5, 6 roll5 meals5, 6 meals5, 6 roll5 meals5, 6 meals5, 6

Kent local 106,298 16,217 15.3 81,714 9,435 11.5 2,763 872 31.6 authority Dartford 8,304 1,111 13.4 6,800 596 8.8 293 82 28.0 parliamentary constituency 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes primary academies. 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies. 4 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools, excludes general hospital schools. 5 Includes sole and dual (main) registrations. 6 Pupils known to be eligible for and claiming for free school meals who have full-time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils Source: School Census

The latest information, for January 2011, on free In Barnsley, the majority of 16 and 17-year-olds are school meal eligibility and other school and pupil already participating in education and work based education information can be found at: or training: 79% at the end of 2009. http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001012/ The process of offering 16 and 17-year-olds a suitable index.shtml place in education or training by the end of September, which has been known as the ’September Guarantee’, Further Education: Barnsley will continue. In Barnsley 97.8% of 16 and 17-year-olds received such an offer in 2010. Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Education We are funding more education and training places if he will take steps to increase access to further education than ever before, which is a very high priority as we for 16 to 18-year-olds in Barnsley. [60421] prepare for raising the participation age to 17 in 2013 and 18 by 2015. In total we will be funding over 1.3 million Mr Gibb [holding answer 21 June 2011]: The places in schools, colleges and other providers and a Government have already taken steps to enable more 16 further 230,000 apprenticeship places during the 2011/12 to 18-year-olds to access further education and training. academic year. This is sufficient to provide a place in 887W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 888W education or training for every young person who wants Schools: Admissions one. In Barnsley, 16-18 school and further education providers have been allocated funding to support a Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for further 267 student places in 2011/12 than this year. Education how many representations he has received From September 2011, those young people who are from local authorities in support of the abolition of facing genuine financial barriers to participation in admissions forums to date. [60834] education or training post 16 will be able to apply for financial support from the new £180 million 16-19 Mr Gibb: We have had a number of discussions at Bursary Fund. official level, which highlighted the very mixed view on Local authorities will retain their statutory duty to the effectiveness of admissions forum. Some have said encourage, enable or assist young people’s participation they are very useful and always quorate, other local in education or training. Using funding from the new authorities have found the forums to be costly and Early Intervention Grant, they will be able to intervene unproductive. As was made clear during the Commons early with those who are at risk of disengagement and stages of the Education Bill, we are not proposing the provide the tailored support that young people in their abolition of admission forums. Instead, clause 34 of the area need to engage. Education Bill would remove the mandate on every local authority to set up an admissions forum, leaving the local authority and their communities to decide Primary Education: Yorkshire and the Humber what groups are most appropriate for their circumstances. This does not reduce parental voice in the admission system. Parents will still have the right to be consulted Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for on admission arrangements, to object to any they consider Education how many primary schools in (a) North are not compliant with the code, and they retain the East Lincolnshire, (b) North Lincolnshire and (c) Hull right to appeal against a decision not to offer them a were below the Government’s primary minimum floor place at one of their preferred schools. standard in each of the last five years. [61423] Schools: Assessments Mr Gibb: The numbers of schools below the Government’s primary minimum floor standards in Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for each of the last five years are: Education (1) whether he plans to provide unique pupil numbers on future releases of school examinations 2010 2009 2008 2007 2006 data; [58817] (2) what steps he plans to take to promote more (a) North 5 9 15 14 14 do-it-yourself league tables of educational performance. East Lincolnshire [58818] (b) North 4 8 7 10 10 Lincolnshire Mr Gibb: We want to make it easier for parents and (c) 911182326the public to hold schools to account, giving them Kingston access to more information about every school and how upon Hull it performs, to make a positive impact on the choices that parents make. An important element of this will be The primary floor standard combines measures of the provision of information in a way that allows parents attainment and progression and was introduced in to ask the questions that are most important to them. November 2010. The 2010 floor standard has been From January 2012, the tables will include the publication applied to previous years, including attainment and of a wider range of KS4 indicators than ever before and progression for 2009 and 2010 and attainment only for increasing amounts of data released from the National the previous three years as progression data are not Pupil Database. To allow a greater level of interrogation available. and to enable alternative league tables to be produced, further work is being undertaken to ensure that the release of the data required for such a purpose is Religion: Education compliant with the Data Protection Act. The release of unique pupil numbers is not required to facilitate the production of alternative league tables and the Department Caroline Nokes: To ask the Secretary of State for has no plans to release publicly personal and identifiable Education what recent assessment his Department has data including unique pupil numbers alongside made of the effect of excluding religious education examinations and test data. (RE) from the English baccalaureate on the number of students studying full course RE at GCSE level. Schools: Catering [61288] Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mr Gibb: We do not currently collect systematic data how many (a) free schools and (b) academies do not on the choices pupils make on their GCSE subjects. have catering facilities. [59973] However, the Department has work under way to assess whether and how the English baccalaureate has influenced Mr Gibb [holding answer 27 June 2011]: The majority the GCSE offer made in schools from September 2011. of the Free Schools hoping to open in September 2011 We will use this, together with a range of other information will have catering facilities. Information on catering sources, to inform future policy development. facilities at Academies is not held centrally. 889W Written Answers29 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 890W

Schools: Standards Mr Gibb: Local authorities retain their responsibility to enable, encourage and assist young people’s participation Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Education in education or training, including through the provision how many (a) state schools, (b) independent schools of careers guidance. It is for local authorities to determine and (c) faith schools have been placed in special measures how best to do so, taking into account local priorities by Ofsted in each of the last five years; and how many and the needs and circumstances of young people in have been closed for reasons of poor performance in their area. The Early Intervention Grant will support each such year. [61809] local authorities’ transitional responsibilities for careers guidance until the new arrangements are in place. Mr Gibb: Data from 2005/06 to 2009/10 on state and The Department for Education website sets out the faith schools which have been placed in special measures Government’s expectations of local authorities and schools and those that have closed has been placed in the House in relation to careers guidance over the next 18 months, Libraries. through to 2012. This will allow them to make their own transitional arrangements. Independent schools are not subject to special measures. Instead, the Department takes regulatory action against http://www.education.gov.uk/16to19/careersguidance/ a0064052/the-role-of-schools-and-local-authorities-in-careers- schools where there is evidence that a school is not guidance meeting the Independent School Standards. Vocational Guidance Schools: Vocational Guidance Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what discussions he has had with professional careers Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for advisers about the proposed careers summit. [58542] Education what recent assessment he has made of the capability of local authorities to fulfil their statutory Mr Hayes: Numerous discussions have taken place duties to provide careers guidance to pupils in schools with careers professionals about the careers summit and sixth form colleges. [58922] through the direct involvement of their representative bodies, including the National Connexions Network Mr Hayes [holding answer 10 June 2011]: The and the Local Authority Reference Group, in planning Department for Education has not conducted any formal for the event. Plans are well advanced for the event, assessment of the capability of local authorities to fulfil which is scheduled to take place in July, and invitations their statutory duties to provide careers guidance to will be issued shortly. pupils in schools and sixth form colleges. They are funded through the Early Intervention Grant to support Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for young people’s participation, including their transitional Education what assessment he has made of the ability responsibility for careers guidance in advance of new of the all-age careers service to provide statistical arrangements coming into effect in 2012. It is for local information on the education, employment and authorities to decide how they should make arrangements training outcomes of young people aged 16 to 19 years. for supporting young people’s participation, taking into [59172] account the needs of their local communities. Mr Hayes [holding answer 10 June 2011]: The all-age Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for careers service will not be responsible for providing Education what plans he has for the allocation of statistical information on the education, employment funding for the schools element of the all-age careers and training outcomes of young people aged 16 to service; and if he will make a statement. [59173] 18 years. Local authorities have—and will retain— responsibility for enabling, encouraging and assisting young people’s participation in education and training, Mr Hayes [holding answer 10 June 2011]: The level including maintaining effective records and reporting of the Dedicated Schools Grant and Pupil Premium in on the activities of young people in their area. 2011-12 has been announced. There are no amounts within these totals ring fenced or separately identified Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for for any purpose; it will be for schools to determine how Education how many qualified careers advisers were they use their resources, including for securing access to employed in the careers service (a) in Nottinghamshire careers guidance. and (b) nationally in each of the last two years. [59174] Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether face-to-face professional careers Mr Hayes [holding answer 10 June 2011]: The guidance is to be guaranteed prior to the introduction Department for Education does not hold information of the National Careers Service. [61320] on the number of advisers employed by local services. 5MC Ministerial Corrections29 JUNE 2011 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

Communities and Local Government Area Based Grant: Cohesion Ministerial Correction Local authority 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

City of Bradford 72,353 132,647 156,765 Wednesday 29 June 2011 Metropolitan District Council Breckland District 95,294 174,706 206,471 Council Burnley Borough 116,471 213,529 252,353 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Council Bury Metropolitan 49,412 90,588 107,059 Community Relations: Finance Borough Council Calderdale 72,353 132,647 156,765 Metropolitan Borough Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Council Communities and Local Government how much funding Carlisle City Council 26,471 48,529 57,353 his Department provided to each local authority for Cherwell District 26,471 48,529 57,353 community cohesion projects in (a) 2011-12 and (b) each Council of the last three financial years. [59346] Cheshire East UA 0 48,529 57,353 [Official Report, 15 June 2011, Vol. 529, c. 787-91W.] Cheshire West and 0 48,529 57,353 Letter of correction from Mr. Andrew Stunell: Chester UA An error has been identified in the text of the Minister’s Chester-le-Street 26,471 0 0 answer given to the right hon. Member for Don Valley Corby Borough Council 95,294 174,706 206,471 (Caroline Flint) on 15 June 2011. Craven District Council 26,471 48,529 57,353 Crawley Borough 49,412 90,588 107,059 The full answer given was as follows: Council Croydon London 26,471 48,529 57,353 Andrew Stunell: Between 2008-09 and 2010-11 funding Borough for cohesion projects was provided to local authorities Crewe and Nantwich 26,471 . 0 26,471 via unringfenced Area Based Grant In 2011-12, general Dartford Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 unringfenced funding of £190.540 million was allocated Council to local authorities in England through Local Services Derwentside 49,412 0 0 Support Grant with the freedom to use it to meet Doncaster Metropolitan 49,412 90,588 107,059 locally identified priorities, including community cohesion. Borough Council The following table shows funding allocation for Dover District Council 49,412 90,588 107,059 cohesion projects for each local authority from 2008-09 Dudley Metropolitan 26,471 48,529 57,353 to 2010-11. Borough Council Communities and Local Government Area Based Grant: Cohesion Durham County UA 0 320,293 378,529 Local authority 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Ealing London Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Easington 49,412 0 0 Amber Valley Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 East Staffordshire 49,412 90,588 107,059 Council Borough Council Arun District Council 49,412 90,588 107,059 Ellesmere Port and 26,471 0 0 Ashfield District 72,353 132,647 156,765 Neston Council Erewash Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Ashford Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Council Fenland District 116,471 213,529 252,353 Barking and Dagenham 116,471 213,529 252,353 Council London Borough Gateshead Metropolitan 26,471 48,529 57,353 Barnsley Metropolitan 72,353 132,647 156,765 Borough Council Borough Council Gosport Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Basildon District 49,412 90,588 107,059 Council Council Bassetlaw District 26,471 48,529 57,353 Gravesham Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Council Berwick-upon-Tweed 26,471 0 0 Great Yarmouth 116,471 213,529 252,353 Borough Council Bexley London 26,471 48,529 57,353 Borough Greenwich London 26,471 48,529 57,353 Borough Blackburn with Darwen 72,353 132,647 156,765 Borough Council Halton Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Blackpool Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Hammersmith and 26,471 48,529 57,353 Fulham London Bolsover District 26,471 48,529 57,353 Borough Council Bolton Metropolitan 49,412 90,588 107,059 Harlow District Council 26,471 48,529 57,353 Borough Council Hartlepool Council 26,471 48,529 57,353 Boston Borough 116,471 213,529 252,353 Hastings Borough 49,412 90,588 107,059 Council Council Bournemouth Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Havant Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Council 7MC Ministerial Corrections29 JUNE 2011 Ministerial Corrections 8MC

Communities and Local Government Area Based Grant: Cohesion Communities and Local Government Area Based Grant: Cohesion Local authority 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Local authority 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Havering London 49,412 90,588 107,059 Redbridge London 49,412 90,588 107,059 Borough Borough County of 26,471 48,529 57,353 Redcar and Cleveland 49,412 90,588 107,059 Herefordshire District Borough Council Council Redditch Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Hertsmere Borough 49,412 90,588 107,059 Council Council Rochdale Metropolitan 72,353 132,647 156,765 Hillingdon London 49,412 90,588 107,059 Borough Council Borough Rossendale Borough 95,294 174,706 206,471 Hounslow London 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Borough Rotherham 95,294 174,706 206,471 Huntingdonshire 26,471 48,529 57,353 Metropolitan Borough District Council Council Hyndburn Borough 95,294 174,706 206,471 Rushmoor Borough 49,412 90,588 107,059 Council Council Kings Lynn and West 72,353 132,647 156,765 Salford Metropolitan 49,412 90,588 107,059 Norfolk Borough District Council Council Sandwell Metropolitan 26,471 48,529 57,353 Kingston Upon Hull 72,353 132,647 156,765 Borough Council City Council Scarborough Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Kingston upon Thames 000Council Royal Borough Sedgefield 49,412 0 0 Kirklees Metropolitan 49,412 90,588 107,059 Sedgemoor District 26,471 48,529 57,353 Borough Council Council Lancaster City Council 26,471 48,529 57,353 Selby District Council 26,471 48,529 57,353 Lincoln City Council 26,471 48,529 57,353 Sheffield City Council 26,471 48,529 57,353 Liverpool City Council 26,471 48,529 57,353 Shropshire County UA 26,471 97,058 114,706 Luton Borough Council 26,471 48,529 57,353 Slough Borough 49,412 90,588 107,059 Mansfield District 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Council South Holland District 95,294 174,706 206,471 Medway Borough 49,412 90,588 107,059 Council Council South Kesteven District 26,471 48,529 57,353 Mendip District 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Council South Somerset District 26,471 48,529 57,353 Middlesbrough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Borough Southampton City 26,471 48,529 57,353 Newcastle upon Tyne 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Metropolitan District Southend-on-Sea 49,412 90,588 107,059 Council Borough Council Newcastle-under-Lyme 26,471 48,529 57,353 Stockton-on-Tees 26,471 48,529 57,353 Borough Council Borough Council Newham London 72,353 132,647 156,765 Stoke-on-Trent City 95,294 174,706 206,471 Borough Council North East Lincolnshire 49,412 90,588 107,059 Sunderland City 49,412 90,588 107,059 Council Council North Lincolnshire 26,471 48,529 57,353 Swale Borough Council 49,412 90,588 107,059 Council Tameside Metropolitan 49,412 90,588 107,059 North Tyneside 26,471 48,529 57,353 Borough Council Metropolitan Borough Council Tamworth Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Northampton Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Telford and Wrekin 49,412 90,588 107,059 Council Northumberland 0 139,117 164,412 County UA Tendring District 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Nottingham City 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Thanet District Council 72,353 132,647 156,765 Nuneaton and 49,412 90,588 107,059 Thurrock Council 116,471 213,529 252,353 Bedworth Borough Torbay Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Council Oldham Metropolitan 116,471 213,529 252,353 Tower Hamlets London 49,412 90,588 107,059 Borough Council Borough Oswestry 26,471 0 0 Wakefield Metropolitan 49,412 90,588 107,059 Pendle Borough Council 116,471 213,529 252,353 District Council Peterborough City 72,353 132,647 156,765 Walsall Metropolitan 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Borough Council Plymouth City Council 26,471 48,529 57,353 Waltham Forest 26,471 48,529 57,353 Portsmouth City 49,412 90,588 107,059 London Borough Council Wansbeck. 49,412 0 0 9MC Ministerial Corrections29 JUNE 2011 Ministerial Corrections 10MC

Communities and Local Government Area Based Grant: Cohesion Communities and Local Government Area Based Grant: Cohesion Local authority 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Local authority 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Watford Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 Wyre Forest District 26,471 48,529 57,353 Council Council Waveney District 26,471 48,529 57,353 Total 6,000,040 10,999,960 13,000,016 Council Weymouth and 26,471 48,529 57,353 The correct answer should have been as follows: Portland Borough Council Andrew Stunell: Between 2008-09 and 2010-11 funding Wigan Metropolitan 49,412 90,588 107,059 for cohesion projects was provided to local authorities Borough Council via unringfenced Area Based Grant. The following Wiltshire County UA 26,471 48,529 57,353 table shows cohesion funding allocated to local authorities Wirral Metropolitan 26,471 48,529 57,353 from 2008-09 to 2010-11. Borough Council For this spending period (2011-12 to 2014-15) the Woking Borough 49,412 90,588 107,059 Government have given more freedom to local authorities Council to decide how to spend their money. Local authorities Worthing Borough 26,471 48,529 57,353 have an estimated revenue spending power of £52.7 billion Council in 2011-12, which is unringfenced, and is available to Wycombe District 49,412 90,588 107,059 Council them to spend on local priorities, which may include community cohesion.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 29 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 946 WALES—continued Engagements...... 946 High Speed 2...... 946 Public Sector Job Losses ...... 943 WALES...... 937 Stamp Duty ...... 945 Devolution...... 937 Welfare Reform Bill ...... 941 Electricity Projects ...... 938 Welfare Reform Bill ...... 944 Enterprise Zones...... 939 Welsh Economy ...... 945 Great Western Main Line...... 942 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 29 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 49WS DEFENCE—continued Council for Science and Technology ...... 49WS Nuclear Deterrent ...... 50WS

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 50WS JUSTICE...... 51WS Travellers Caravan Count...... 50WS Ministerial Correction ...... 52WS DEFENCE...... 50WS New Independent Assessor of Compensation for Armed Forces (Council Tax Relief)...... 50WS Miscarriages of Justice...... 51WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 29 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 837W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Apprentices...... 837W continued Business: Finance...... 837W Renewable Energy: Planning Permission...... 790W Businesses ...... 838W Departmental Redundancy ...... 839W Fuels: Prices...... 839W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 826W Further Education: Student Numbers...... 839W Broadband ...... 826W Green Investment Bank ...... 840W Broadband: Lancashire...... 827W Multinational Companies ...... 840W Buckingham Palace: Demonstrations ...... 828W Outer Space Act 1986...... 841W Churches: Hertfordshire...... 828W Public Sector: Procurement...... 841W Culture...... 828W South East England Development Agency: Departmental Manpower...... 829W Hampshire ...... 841W Departmental Procurement...... 829W Space Technology ...... 842W English Heritage ...... 829W UK Trade and Investment...... 842W Press...... 830W Satellites...... 830W Sports: Dartford ...... 830W CABINET OFFICE...... 842W Telecommunications: Credit...... 831W Capita ...... 842W Video Recordings: Certification ...... 831W Civil Servants: Trade Unions ...... 843W Departmental Billing ...... 843W EU public Procurement Policy ...... 844W DEFENCE...... 831W Senior Civil Servants...... 844W Air Force: Redundancy...... 831W Air Force: Training ...... 831W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 786W Armed Forces ...... 832W Affordable Housing...... 786W Armed Forces: Education ...... 832W Affordable Housing: Peterborough ...... 786W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 833W Affordable Housing: Wirral ...... 786W Armed Forces: Parachuting ...... 833W Audit Commission ...... 787W Defence...... 833W Eco-towns ...... 787W Departmental Public Bodies ...... 833W EU Grants and Loans...... 787W Departmental Security ...... 834W Fair Play Campaign ...... 788W Departmental Travel ...... 834W Housing ...... 788W Hampshire ...... 835W Housing: Sales ...... 788W Iraq: Detainees...... 835W Mayors...... 789W Sussex ...... 835W Non-domestic Rates: Empty Property...... 789W USA: Defence Academy ...... 835W Public Order Offences: Bye Laws ...... 789W World War I: Anniversaries...... 836W Col. No. Col. No. DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 845W HEALTH—continued Returning Officers: Expenditure ...... 845W Maternity Services ...... 868W Voting Rights: Prisoners ...... 846W Maternity Services: High Peak...... 868W Mental Health Services ...... 869W EDUCATION...... 880W Mental Health Services: Greater London...... 869W Academies...... 880W Monitor ...... 871W Academies: Sheffield ...... 881W NHS: Conditions of Employment ...... 872W Adoption ...... 881W NHS Future Forum ...... 871W Business: Education ...... 882W NHS: Future Forum ...... 872W CAFCASS: Manpower ...... 882W NHS: Innovation ...... 873W Departmental Written Questions ...... 883W NHS: Labour Mobility ...... 874W Education Maintenance Allowance...... 884W NHS: Manpower ...... 874W English Baccalaureate ...... 885W NHS: Reorganisation...... 874W Free School Meals...... 886W Organs: Donors ...... 875W Free School Meals: Kent...... 886W Patients: Safety ...... 876W Further Education: Barnsley...... 885W Primary Care Trusts: Expenditure...... 876W Primary Education: Yorkshire and the Humber..... 887W Psychiatry ...... 877W Religion: Education ...... 887W Radiotherapy ...... 877W Schools: Admissions ...... 888W Schools: Assessments ...... 888W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 854W Schools: Catering ...... 888W Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Tooting...... 854W Schools: Standards...... 889W Arrests ...... 855W Schools: Vocational Guidance...... 889W Asylum: EU Countries...... 855W Vocational Guidance...... 890W Burglary: Warrington...... 855W Crime Prevention: Business...... 856W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 793W Crime Prevention: Young People ...... 856W Electoral Register...... 793W Crimes of Violence: Havering ...... 856W Cybercrime ...... 857W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 849W Demonstrations: Buckingham Palace ...... 857W Biofuels: Timber ...... 849W Domestic Violence: EU Law ...... 857W Capita ...... 850W Drugs: Misuse...... 857W Carbon Emissions: Industry ...... 850W Extradition: USA...... 858W Electricity Generation...... 850W Fixed Penalties...... 858W Electricity Industry: Theft...... 851W Foreign Workers: EU Nationals...... 861W Energy: Finance ...... 851W Human Trafficking: EU Law ...... 861W Energy: Meters...... 851W Immigration...... 861W European Project Bond Initiative...... 852W Knives: Crime ...... 862W Garages and Petrol Stations...... 852W Metals: Theft ...... 862W Natural Gas ...... 852W National Crime Agency ...... 863W Renewable Energy...... 854W Police: Borders ...... 863W Police: Helicopters ...... 863W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Third Sector...... 863W AFFAIRS...... 796W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Aviation ...... 796W STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 791W Departmental Public Bodies ...... 796W Members: Allowances ...... 791W Droughts...... 797W Operating Costs ...... 792W Farmers: Income...... 798W Telephone Tapping...... 792W Land ...... 799W Rabbits: Animal Welfare ...... 799W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 878W Water Supply: Reservoirs ...... 800W Departmental Offices...... 878W Developing Countries: Health Services ...... 879W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 823W Developing Countries: Malnutrition ...... 880W Asylum ...... 823W Davinder Singh Bhullar ...... 823W JUSTICE...... 800W Departmental ICT ...... 823W Capita ...... 800W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 824W Courts: Hitchin ...... 805W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 824W Family Proceedings ...... 805W Mediterranean Region: Human Trafficking ...... 825W National Offender Management Service: Syria: Politics and Government...... 825W Operating Costs ...... 807W Turks and Caicos Islands: Economic Situation ...... 826W Offenders: Employment ...... 808W Prison Sentences: Wales ...... 808W HEALTH...... 865W Prisoners ...... 811W Aortic Aneurysm: Screening ...... 865W Prisoners’ Earnings Act 1996 ...... 812W Baby Care Units: Finance ...... 865W Prisoners: Foreign Nationals...... 814W Departmental Billing ...... 865W Prisoners’ Release: Re-offenders ...... 812W General Practitioners: Greater London...... 866W Prisons: Education...... 814W Hampshire and Sussex ...... 866W Probation: Finance ...... 814W Health and Social Care Bill...... 867W Repossession Orders: Wandsworth...... 815W Health Services: Greater London...... 867W Health Services: Learning Disability ...... 867W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 821W Home Care Services: Older People...... 868W Anglo-Irish Secretariat...... 821W Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND—continued TREASURY—continued Departmental Billing ...... 821W National Insurance Contributions ...... 817W Departmental Manpower...... 822W Revenue and Customs: Labour Turnover...... 818W Fuels: Prices...... 822W Revenue and Customs: Training...... 819W Parades ...... 822W Tax Avoidance ...... 819W VAT: Hotels ...... 823W Taxation: Business ...... 820W Taxation: Multinational Companies ...... 820W PRIME MINISTER...... 796W VAT: Energy...... 820W Service Chiefs...... 796W WALES...... 847W SCOTLAND...... 790W Departmental Billing ...... 847W Capita ...... 790W Devolution...... 848W Children: Maintenance ...... 790W Energy: River Severn...... 848W Departmental Billing ...... 790W Policing and Justice...... 847W Renewable Energy...... 848W TRANSPORT ...... 783W Wind Power ...... 849W A1: Speed Limits ...... 783W Biofuels...... 783W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 836W First Capital Connect...... 784W Males: Primary Education ...... 836W Maritime and Coastguard Agency: Scotland ...... 784W Members: Equal Opportunities...... 837W Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation ...... 785W Trade Unions ...... 785W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 793W Capita ...... 793W TREASURY ...... 816W Departmental Redundancy ...... 794W Capital Gains Tax ...... 816W Disability Living Allowance: Care Homes ...... 794W Economic and Monetary Union ...... 816W Employment and Support Allowance: Work EU Budget ...... 817W Capability Assessment ...... 794W Fiscal Policy...... 817W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Hearing Impairment ...... 795W International Monetary Fund: Public RAF Honington: Accidents...... 795W Appointments ...... 817W Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations..... 796W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 29 June 2011

Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT .5MC Community Relations: Finance ...... 5MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 6 July 2011

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 29 June 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 937] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State of Wales Prime Minister

Africa and the Middle East [Col. 957] Statement—(Mr Hague)

Message from the Queen [Col. 976]

Adoption (Leave, Pay and Allowance Arrangements) [Col. 981] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Valerie Vas)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill [Col. 984] Motion for Second Reading—(Mr Kenneth Clarke)—on a Division, agreed to Programme motion—(Mr Dunne)—on a Division, agreed to

Petition [Col. 1074]

Home Ownership (Armed Forces) [Col. 1075] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Convention on Domestic Workers [Col. 269WH] Kirkstall Forge Railway Station [Col. 294WH] Coal-fired Power Stations [Col. 303WH] Local Rail Services (Bristol) [Col. 327WH] Computer Games Industry [Col. 335WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 49WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 783W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]