University of Illinois at Springfield

Norris L Brookens Library

Archives/Special Collections

George Houser Memoir

H817G. Houser, George b. 1916 Interview and memoir 5 tapes, 370 mins., 105 pp.

WWII CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS PROJECT Houser, one of eight Union Seminary students jailed for resisting the draft during WWII, discusses pacifism, peace efforts during WWII, his decision not to register for the draft, and the consequences of his actions. He recalls his education, experiences as an exchange student to China, influences on his beliefs, and participation in civil rights demonstrations. He also discusses his work with the Congress of Racial Equality, Fair Employment Practices Commission, supporting anti-apartheid forces in South Africa, the anti-colonialist movement and liberation struggle in Africa, work with the American Committee on Africa, socialism and colonialism, and Pan-Africanism.

Interview by C. Arthur Bradley, 1988 OPEN See collateral file

Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407

© 1988, University of Illinois Board of Trustees Preface

This manuscript is the product of tape-recorded. interviews conducted. by c. Arthur Bradley for the Oral History Office in 1988. Francie Staggs transcribed the tapes and Mr. Bradley ed.ited. the transcripts. Mr. George Houser reviewed. the transcript. George Houser is one of the eight Union c. o. 1 s who went to jail in 1940. He was born in Cleveland, Ohio on June 2, 1916. He grew up in Lisbon, Ohio; Manila, Philippines; Troy, New York; and Berkeley, California, where his father set.Ved churches successively as a minister and missionaxy. He graduated from Berkeley High School and then went to the College of the Pacific in Stockton for one year, was an exchange student, and graduated from the University of Denver. He had attended Union Seminary for two years when he refused. to register for the draft. After serving a prison sentence of one year at DanbuJ:y Federal Penitenticu:y, he transferred to Chicago Theological Se:minal:y for one more year of work. He received. his B.D. degree in 1947. He went to work as a full-time secretary for the Fellowship of Reconciliation from 1943-1955. While serving in this capacity first in Chicago, then in Cleveland, and finally from the main office in New York City, he became the full-tilne director of the Congress of Racial Equality. In 1955 he organized and became the first full-time executive secretaxy of the Connnittee on Africa. He retired from that position in 1981. ruring his career he has been a :board member of War Resisters League, C.O.R.E., A.C.L.U. 1 and the N.A.A.C.P. He is an ordained. minister in the United. Methodist Church. He lives with his wife, Jean, in Pomona, New York. '!hey have three married children. C. Arthur Bradley has been an Associate Conference Minister for the Illinois conference of the United Church of Christ, deployed in the Central Association in Peoria, Illinois, from 1980 to the present. Dr. Bradley grew up in Shaker Heights and Oberlin, ohio. since 1952 he has been an ordained clergyman, first in the Congregational• Christian Churches and then after the merger in the united Church of Christ. He has served churches in New Han'q;:>sh.ire and connecticut. He holds a Bachelors degree from Hal:.va.rd College, a Masters of Divinity degree from union Theological Seminary I a Masters of Sacred Theology from Yale Divinity School, and a D::ctor of Fhilosophy in American Studies from New York university. Dr. Bradley is narried. to Jean and they have four adult children. Readers of the oral history memoir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator and eclitor sought to preserve the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sangamon State university is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor for views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.

The manuscript may be read, quoted and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical, without permission in writing from the oral History Office, sangamon State university, Springfield, Illinois 62794-9243. Table of contents

Ba.ckgrol.l1'lCi • • • • • • ...... 1 Pledges and Pacifism . • • 2

Exchange Student to China. . • • • Ill • • • • Ill • • 3 Club Involvement at the University of Denver . . . 5 Field Work at the Church of All Nations. • • . . . 7 Influences and Intellectual Stimulation at Union Se:minary. . • • • • • • • • • . . . • • 9 Decision to Not Register . . • • •••• 12 Community Reaction to Decision ...... • • .17 Danbury Prison • . • • . . . . ••. 18 Protests at Danbw:.y Prison . . . . • • .21 Room. Mates While Attending Chicago Theological s~...... 24 Building a Nonviolent World. • . • .27 FOR Cells in Chicago • • • • ...... ••• 30 White City Roller Rink and other Demonstrations ••..•. 32

Congress of Racial Equality (CORE) • • • Ill • • • . • . 36

Draft card Burrlings. • •• 42

Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...... • •• 43 Fair En'ployment Practices Corranission and Federal Racial Legislation. . • . • • • • •• 44 The Church Peace Mission • ...... • • • • 48 campaign in South Africa • ...... • .51 Leaving FOR and Working With the American COmmittee on Africa ...... 60 Julius Nyerere and Sylvanus Olyrrpio...... • . . . 66 George Houser, New York, July 12, 1989. c. A. Bradley, Interviewer.

A: 'Ihis is Skyview Acres, a cooperative cammuni.ty. Q: Oh, is it?

A: Yes, we've lived here since 1949 when this house was built. We moved in September 1, 1949, so it's almost thirty-nine years n<:M. And there's forty-five families in this community. I can show you around a little bit later on. Q: I 1 d love to see it. Why don't we start. Tell some of the influences that brought you here. That's a big order, I understand. Why don't you just tell how you came here and. brought you to that moment at union Seminacy?

A: I don't know. It's not very complicated. Family backgrour::rl was a factor. My father never called himself a pacifist really. He was not a political, organizational activist, but he was a pastor, a minister, a missiona:cy--a missionary in the Philippines. I was brought up in the church. I didn't do much theologizing or philosophizing about it. The fact was that that was my environment. Also, there was an · international environment because, I guess, of the Philippines background. There was that subliminal influence of living in not just a narrow part of the world, but having it stretched out there. There was always an international flavor. I suppose it had an effect on my racial attitudes as well, because not only did we have a lot of Filipinos, when I was just a kid, in our home we had many blacks and. others who were not caucasian. The beginnings of a nore conscious, but quite elementary pacifism, I associate with my high school period in california, in Berkeley. We had a high school group in the church. My father was minister of Trinity Methodist Church in Berkeley. We had a high school group there, the name was Theta Pi. I don't even know what that means, something Greek. BJ.t we called it 'Iheta Pi. It :nru.st have been adopted a long time ago. I don't know whether it still exists. I used to go to SUil'U'l'ler institutes, which were big in the MethcxUst church--the Methodist youth movement at that time. We are talking now about the early and mid-thirties because I was in high school in Berkeley from 1931 to 1934. I graduated in 1934. Q: There was a lot of socialism there.

A: Exactly, you're quite right. I was affected by some of the ministers who were the faculty at these summer institutes and I remember going to, I think, maybe three different ones each summer that I was in high school. It was a three-year stint from the tenth George Houser 2

to the twelfth grade. Places like Russian River and--well, I could mention other names, but it's not ilnportant. This was just a little pre-war, pre-Second world War, post-First World War. There was a kind of an assumed Christian pacifism--that is, everybody was antiwar.

Q: Do you remember pledges?

A: Yes, sure. The Peace Pledge Union, the OXford Pledge. There was something called the "Greenshirt Movement," I remember. '!here was a couple of young fellows who came to these institutes wearirq green shirts. It was kim of a peace--I don't know what happened to it or what it was, but I kind of remember that. So, I assumed that if you were a Christian, you were a pacifist. This was not basically challenged in my mind. I didn't even have to think very much about it. I was not all that conscious of the world around me during Irrf high school years. I kind of accepted it, but I don 1 t recall the organizations that l was a part of. But out of this church background, both the question of race relations and of peace were assumed and had same i.n'g:x>rtance. I graduated from high school and went to the College of the Pacific, which was a Methodist school in Stockton, California. That was the year that I kind of discovered the world. I started reading books and I took Irrf studies oore seriously than I had ever had in high school, which I don 1 t remember, you know, I sort of took it in stride.

Q: What do you remember being interested in in high school, just a church youth group?

A: Yes, we had this Methodist youth fellowship group. It was more ilrportant in our group because we were all in high school too. so, these were Irrf good friends. We went camping together. We went up to Yosemite. We'd go on weekend swimming trips.

Q: You functione:i really as a youth group ought to function.

A: '!hat's right. I think we were a good nucleus. I don't know where some of these people are, but these were my basic friends at that time. Many of them went on to college. After rrrt high school period, the group disbanded and I developed new contacts and new interests. Q: '!hat was also the time you began to widen your horizons?

A: Quite right, quite right. I was influenced by a young man who was a senior the year I was a freshman at the College of the Pacific. His name was Glenn Young. He was planning to go into the ministry. He had gone as an exchange student to the University of Hawaii the previous year, his junior year. I spent a lot of time with Glenn. He subsequently left the ministry and became a doctor and I lost contact with him. He was an influence on me that first :year of college. I admired hiln; I liked his style; I liked his thinking. We spent a lot of time talking and we'd do things together. He partly influenced me to apply to being as an exchange student and to go to China. I'd applied and I . • .

Q: Why did he encourage you? Did he think that it'd be good for you? George Houser 3

A: Who knows why he did it. I can't say. The idea appealw to me anyway. The fact that he'd gone as an exchange student meant scnnething important to him was probably an influential factor, but it wasn't Hawaii, it was China at Lingnan University in canton. So, I applied and I went there, but during that first year at college, I remember taking a religion course or so, sociology, economics, and I decided to major in the social sciences. I didn't think too much about vocation. My father had always taught. '!here were four children: two older sisters, myself, and my brother, Henry. And I think my father definitely wanted me to go to the ministry.

Q: But he never said it? A: Oh, he said it.

Q: Oh, he did say it?

A: On the other hand he didn't push my nose in it. '!here was an influence there. so, always it was there sort of in the background. There even may have been an asSI.Il'l'ption about that. Unless some other possibility looms up or unless my thinking or my style moves me in a different direction, which I gather it didn't because I did finally decide to go into the ministry, at least to go to seminary. Anyway, that first year was a thinking year and the one in which I discovered the world around me. Then onto China. '!here were a group of twenty-five Americans from all over the United States. 'Ihere were four from Harvard. I think there were four from Penn State, Wesleyan university. '!here were three or four from Stanford an:i scattered aroun:i the countey, there were twenty-five of them. Arrl durin;J that year, we became scnnething of a close-knit group. I've kept in touch with them. We had a fiftieth reunion last year because we were there the year of 1935 and 1936. last year, we met in Holland, Michigan, and twenty out of the twenty-five were there. Four had die:i, so that only one was not there and he was in the Far East and couldn 1 t make it. otherwise, we came fran all over the United states, california, Florida. I've kept in touch to same extent with same of these people and people like Will Beardslee, who went into the ministry and taught down in Atlanta, a New Testament scholar; CUrt Smith, who was in the Methodist church, and is now retired up in New Hanq;>shire. It was a gcxxl group.

Q: Groups have been important to you, like the youth group and now this group.

A: I guess, aren't they to everybody, I don't know. No, I have been a part of groups in one way or the other. Q: What did you really get out of the exchange year?

A: China? Traveling around China, I became very interested in China. I did quite a bit of reading. '!he courses which I took, although they were not important as courses as my concentration was not necessarily on studies that year, but it was the envirornnent which was important. '!he trips we took out from canton and during the Christmas period, I went over to the Fhilippines, which I hadn't been to since I had left George Houser 4 there as a child. And then on the way home, traveling' up through interior China ani I traveled in Japan during' that period.

Q: weren•t they at war with China?

A: No, it was 1936. It was just before the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. It was a period in which Chang Kai-shek was still, of course, very much in charge ani he was tcyinq to unify the eighteen provinces of China into a workin;J whole. He just about did it in 1936. In fact, we ran into troop movements and we had to chang'e our whole itinerary--two of us were traveling' together. we had to chang'e our itinerary because the troops had confiscated railroads ani such and we took a long trip on an interior river, stayinq with missionaries along the way.

Q: So, you saw the use of militax:Y force?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: How did you respond knowinq that you that you were against the war? I '11 bet that was disillusioning.

A: I don 1 t remember any •

Q: One way or the other?

A: No, no. You assumed this was the way things were. I used to have arguments with same of my fellov.r exchange students on the question of pacifism.

Q: '!hey knew you were a pacifist?

A: Well, I argued for the position. I wasn •t a member of any organization, but I took a Christian pacifist position. I was against the war ani I remember arguing. SUbsequently, one of those exchange students became the Ambassador to 'Ihailand.. He was very active during the Vietnam war with the u. s. government. Ken Young subsequently died. He was one of the four of our group who had died. We had others who workecl for the U. s. government.

Q: So, there wasn't any other pacifist.

A: Oh., there were.

Q: There were same other pacifists?

A: Yes, yes. It was an acceptable position, but on the other harrl, we were not in a war. The war didn 1 t start in Europe for another three years. Anyway, that year in China kind of opened my eyes up to a world out there ani it had an effect. '!hen back to the States. our folks in the meantime, they moved from Berkeley to Denver, where my father was the minister of the downtown Trinity Methodist Church in Denver. I decide:i rather than going back to the COllege of the Pacific, that I would live at home for the last two years of college. It would be cheaper and because it was years during' ani right after George Houser 5 the Depression took place. So, I lived at home from 1936 to 1938 while I finished my last two years at the University of Denver. NOW", the university of Denver was .inp:>rtant. It was post my experience in China. 'Ihe main group was the Student Christian Movement on the campus.

Q: '!hat's when you got active in it?

A: Right, quite right. At the same time, I became active on the national level with the National Council of Methodist Youth, which was a very forward-looking, progressive, I guess one would say, youth movement within the church. First, I was sent as a representative from the University of Delwer to represent the university at the National Council of Methodist Youth, which met in August of 1936 in Evanston, Illinois. 'Ihere I met a number of people wham I still keep in touch with, people like Jim Fanner.

Q: 'Ihe one from CORE.

A: '!hat's where I first met Jim. Jim, at that time, I guess came from Texas. Jolm SWomley. Do you know John? Q: Yes.

A: I just had a card today from John. He's out in COlorado. We frequently go there and he said, "Can you come on out?" John was very active. People like Frank Littell. Do you know Frank?

Q: SUre.

A: I just had a note from Frank in the last week with a paper he had just prepared which I have read over.

Q: 'Ihat is the inqx:>rtant Jd.nj of further contact.

A: Quite right. Now, here you ten::ied to have sort of young Christian radical people. I first learned of people like Hany Ward.

Q: You had not heard of him up to that time?

A: I may have, but I wasn't conscious of it. I don't know. Reinhold Niebuhr. There was sort of a national world started opening up a little bit. Being active in the Student Christian Movement on the University of Denver canpus, and I became the president of the COsmopolitan Club at the University of Denver. So, this was an intemational group on the campus. 'Ihe SCM on the campus. 'Ihe stnmner institutes held up at Estes Park, in 1937 and 1938, people like Allen Hunter came through and Pitney VanDusen came up from Union Seminat;y. Francis Hall. You never knew of Francis Hall, did you?

Q: No.

A: Fran was one of my classmates at Denver, and we came to union together. Fran died maybe ten years ago. He was part of our group at the University of Denver and became a non-registrant himself, not part George Houser 6 of our eight. He spent some time in prison. We :t"'Oll\Eld. together. The two roommates I had at Union were Fran Hall an:l Howard Spragg. So, anyway the Denver period was vezy i.rrq;>ortant in tenns of university activity. The intellectual life--Floyd Si.rrpson, who taught religion at that time had some influence on my thinking. But it was basically the Student Christian Movement and the group built arouni that. Q: When you were there the socialist/communist division beginning to come in at that time or was that later?

A: later. That was not in it at that time. Q: How about socialists. Have you studied that at all? A: Well, Nonnan Thomas. I don't kncM whether I could say that I was influenced by Nonnan Thomas, but I liked Norman Thomas.

Q: Right.

A: Upton sinclair's The Grapes of Wrath. Q: That was John Steinbeck.

A: Yes. All sort of became part of what I liked an:l must have had a certain influence.

Q: But not active in socialism.

A: No, I knew of the socialist party in Denver and I went to some of their meetings, but I did not join. For no particular reason, I could have.

Q: so, then heM did you choose the seminary? A: Well, my father had gone to Boston University School of Theology, Methodist.

Q: So, he had gone out of the usual track, wouldn't he? Wouldn't westerners usually go to . . .

A: My father was from the east. He grew up in western Pennsylvania and went to Allegheny COllege in Meadville, Pennsylvania. So, he was an Easterner. I suppose it was logical for him to go to a place like Boston university. It was one of the outstanding Methodist seminaries.

Q: SUre.

A: I never seriously considered going to a Methodist seminary. There was Iliff School of Theology right on the University of Denver campus. I never really considered going there. I think the fact that Pitt vanr:usen came out--I knew about Harry Ward and Reinhold Niebuhr.

Q: We were talking about how you went to the seminary. George Houser 7

A: union Se:minal:y.

Q: Pitt VanD.lsen.

A: Yes. Arrl Fran Hall, who was my classmate arrl very active in our Student Christian Movement at the University of Denver, liked Union, so we decided to came back to Union together. We roamed together.

Q: How did Spragg get into the group? Did anybody krlow him? A: Howard Spragg.

Q: Was he assigned to you by the seminary?

A: Oh, well that was at a later point. Anyway, we came back arrl for the first semester, I lived in the donnato:ry at 600 W. 122nd. Fran and I were up on the sixth floor right opposite the room where Roger Shinn . . • You know Roger? Roger and I were very good friends. We used to argue a lot. Q: Sounds like a very strong-minded man.

A: I always respected him a great deal. I was really searching. I wanted. to get my mitts into something at this point. Q: In New York.

A: Rather than taking a field work job in a subutban church, I decided to get down on the lower East Side. I took a job at the Ol.urch of All Nations. Did you know that? Q: No.

A: I guess it's still there. I became a part. of the staff as my field work, arrl moved down to First Street, just off of Second Avenue on the lower East Side. '!here were a group of us. '!here were six guys, but one of them was at Union Seminary also. Q: one of those. A: one of them. Not in my class, but in a different class. Q: You were all working down there?

A: one way or the other. Not all at the church but in social service, no. But we lived in this old tenament down. we had bugs. Q: What was that like if you'd grown up in a protected envirornnent, that must have been •••

A: I don't know. I took these things in stride because we'd done a lot of camping in our family. We have a camping family and being under strained circumstances in China and the Philippines, I really didn't think very much about it. I thought I was getting down next to where the people were. I tried. to find out how things were being George Houser 8 organize!d. in this community, the protest against the lives of tenaments. I didn't have a lot of time to program because I was workirg with gangs on the street who became clubs within the Church of All Nations. My task was to· work with them. I guess I discovered a little bit about the community, but not that much. I continued to work at the Church of All Nations my first and my seconc.i year. I can't remember now quite why Fran ani I stopped roamirr:] together-we always got alOJ."19" wonderfully. At the beginning of my third year, Spragg and I decided to room t~ether. My seco:rrl year I was down on the lower East Side the whole tme.

Q: :8J.t then you were going to come back?

A: Then I came back up to the seminary. D.lring that year 1 I guess Fran must have been with somebody else. So, Spragg ani I roomed. together.

Q: Where did you meet him, in class or

A: Yes, we were in the same class.

Q: You met him and had coiWersations with him? A: Also, we were often together. When did I join the Socialist party. I'm not sure at that time, but there were activities 'both in the city and in the life of the seminary that I was part of.

Q: '!hat's what I was th:i.nk:i.:niJ of, a socialist club •••

A: '!hat's right. I became active in the Religion and Labor Fou:rrlation--Willard Uphaus. Willard ani I became good frie:rrls. Willard tried to get me to join him on the staff of the Religion and I..ahor Foundation.

Q: He did?

A: I didn't do it.

Q: What might your life have been?

A: Who knows 1 when you go off in a lot of ways and yet maintain the same kirrl of a base. I liked Willard.

Q: What i.n'pressed you the IrOSt about him? He was not a very strong leader. A: He was a mild person. I think he had a very great streak of naivete. rut who I am to talk about that. Certainly, he did not seem to make great distinctions between a Marxist p::lSition and he increasingly, I think, worked in United Front organizations with the big issues during that period.

Q: It was certainly a big issue. You noticed that he said, ''No way are we going to do anything that would distress the communists. 11 George Houser 9

A: Well, I became part of the socialists rather than the canununist influence.

Q: Right.

A: MoVertllants. The Youth Cormnittee Against war. I was over against the American Youth conference. Now, Jack McMichael was a class behind me at union Seminary, who became the national president of the American Youth Congress. Of course, Ha.ny" Ward was very much involved in the League Against War and Facism, which then became the League for Peace and Democracy after the soviet union got in the war. I took classes with Harry Ward.

Q: You were aware that he was United Front advocate?

A: Yes, but I liked his style and I liked his activism, but I was not particularly influenced by his lectures. He was not a stirring professor. Niebuhr was. Niebuhr fascinated me. He influenced my thinking in a fundamental way and still does. There's great impact from his world view.

Q: Wasn't there always a conflict between his SOl'l"teWhat jaundiced view of human nature and the ki.m of high ideas of pacifism and socialism? Wasn't he looking forward to a much more just society arrl with a society that was not at war which was out of sync with his view of moral man and inunoral society? A: Well, this was one of the theoretical and theological questions that one had to wrestle with at that time.

Q: Do you remember witnessing any of that? A: I do indeed..

Q: Do you?

A: Indeed, I do. And one still does in a sense, but also you develop sort of your own system over a pericxi of time growing out of your experience. Of course, my pacifism is quite different now than it was in that pericxi. As we get into my African experiences, it will be quite obvious and during the pericxi that I was with the FOR, which followed union. At union seminary, influences played on me from various sources. There was intellectual stimulation of the Niebuhr and the others. Sane of the guys like Pitt Va.nt:usen, who was very active in the church international, so to speak. And then having the Bible opened up to me by new New Testament and Old Testament scholars, the give and take among the students, the social activism which had a base at Union Seminary. I, of course, became conscious of a Fhilip Randolph and the Brotherllocxi of Sleepirg car Porters. I think my first picket line was with the Brotherllocxi of Sleeping car Porters-Randolph's organization. I was not a member of the FOR at this point. A. J. Muste was down at Labor Temple during this pericxi. I became acquainted with A. J. and went down to Labor Tenq:>le for sane programs. Of course, I was down on the East Side anyway. And labor ~~e~ 10

Tenple was on Fourteenth Street, so it was not far away. So, I knew of A. J. . . .

Q: He was in the labor movement?

A: Yes, ani subsequently he went with the FOR, which was when I got better acquainted with hbn. Q: But you did know him in those days?

A: Yes.

Q: His pacifism changed over the years, didn't it? A: Well, I guess it did.

Q: ~!here was a perioci he wasn 1 t a pacifist. A: Oh, he was a Trotskyite. Absolutely, he was not a pacifist at all.

Q: '!hen he came back to it. A: He came back to it. He came back to a O'lristian pacifism. Q: '!hat's right. Now, a strong circle of . . . A: Well, he would still call himself a socialist. Q: He would?

A: Oh, yes. He was not a capitalist pacifist. No question about that. But his primary analysis was based on a pacifist interpretation of the gospel on the one hand and the history on the other. I was not basically influenced by A. J. at this point. He was there. We had Lovell, who was a good friend. Dellinger was a class behind me. Benedict ani Dallas, also. Benedict, Dallas, ani Dellinger became something of a trio. They were in the same class. Lovell ani Spragg and I were seniors in the year we refused to register. We were in our second year when they were the entering class. Dellirqer was a very iltq:>ressive fellow. Always, to me. He was bright. He was strong. Q: Civil minded.

A: Yes. I didn't have all that much contact with him because we were in different classes. Of course, we knew each other and we were thrown together in this and that. We played basketball together. I think every one of our eight--I always thought of Dellinger as a dirty basketball player. He was rough and he was bigger than I was. Spragg and Lovell, and I, and Benedict, of course, as we later found out was a great softball pitcher which was very ilrp::>rtant in some of our experiences up at Danbury.

Q: '!hat's right. George Houser 11

A: Dallas, Wichlei, BeVilacqua. we always played basketball together in the gym across from Clarenv::mt Avenue. At that time, it was the uptown Y. '!here was the gym and we had maybe a couple of aftemoons a week. we 1 d go aver there and play basketball.

Q: so, the group really was forming at that time and didn't know it? A: we played basketball together. But also there were activities at the seminary that threw us tog'ether. NOW', the third year--I had during the summer of 1940, my father who was now a district su:perinterxient in what was then the Colorado Conference put up to me the idea of co.mi.ng and taking a SUlilll'Ler charge because he had a place that was open in the little town of Norwcx::d, out in the westem reaches of Colorado about thirty or forty miles from the utah border on the western slope of the Rockies. It must have been about seven-thousand foot altitude. It was sheep and cattle country. So, I went out to No:t:WOOd for that summer.

Q: Anywhere near Meeker?

A: well, it's west and a little south of Meeker. I lave the Rockies and I lave the area. I lave to go trout fishing. I went out there, and I was isolated.. Boy, I '11 tell you, how isolated. that place was.

Q: Really? A: Oh, yes. A town of two hundred people or so. Q: You've been used to the stimulation from the big city ••••

A: Ani here I was. I was preacl'lirq a sermon every S\.lrX'iay and calling on people. Doing everything that a minister does. Among a group of people who--we were on the verge of war. '!he war had started in Europe.

Q: '!hat's right in 1940.

A: I might just go back and say that in 1939 at the time war broke out, I was at a what was then the national conference of Methodist Youth in Missouri. Werrenton College, Missouri. I remember the beginnin;;J of the war while we were there.

Q: were many private discussions going on? A: Oh, iOOeed they were.

Q: Were people saying that they worKiered whether this was the right thing to do or-I mean was the isolationism rampant at that time? A: '!here must have been. '!he U.s. was not in it yet. Roosevelt, of course, was president. I don't recall specifically anything that happened there in which the group was saying, ''We won't go." I don't remember. You see, the First World War was ancient histocy to us. We'd been born during it or just after it. I was born right in the middle of it. It was ancient history. 'Ihe fact that there could be a Geo:rge Houser 12 war was kind of unbelievable. You couldn't believe it. It was not part of one's experience.

Q: Did the fact YCAl were in the heartlani rrtake a differenc:e?

A: Yes.

Q: So far away. You weren't on a coast.

A: Well, I was at Union seminary at that time. That was in 1939. I went to a semi.na:cy in 1938, so I was in the beginning of my seconi year. But the year after that was Norwood. It was on the brink. One felt that the u.s. was on the brink. '!here had to be sarre thinking about it. Q: so, you had started thinking about whether to register or not.

A: Because there was going to be the first draft.

Q: That law was passed when? A: June of 1940. We knew we were going to have to face it. So, I remEmlber doing SOit'e thinking in isolation.

Q: Were there any others thinking pacifism?

A: No, evecybody out there was goin:J to the Navy or these young fellaNS • • • The only kindred spirit I had was the person who was the teacher in the local school or the superintendent of schools or SOil'ething like that. otherwise, I was dealing with sheepherders and I used to go on their sheephen:ting expeditions with them. It was a different world. I wrote a piece. I don't know whether you ever saw it in the UnionS~ Review. I wrote it in the form of a dia:cy. I have a copy of l.t m my file some place.

Q: It would be haniy if you could dig it out. A: In which I think one of the first entries was out here in Norwood. I've begun to think about what should I do in facing this draft.

Q: Right.

A: Well, back at Union, I was now in a seminary ani Spragg ani I were roommates. I was asleep one night in the • • •

End of Side One, Tape One

A: october. Because registration day was October 16. It must have been October. I was awakened. I remember, I think it was I.ovell, who came in. He must have been talking with both me an:i Spragg. He said, ''Well, 'We've been thinking about this and we think that maybe we ought to refuse to register. 11 'Ihere was a rough draft of a statement. George Houser 13

Q: 'llley brought it in? A: Yes.

Q: 1):) you have any idea who wrote that first draft?

A: I think it was Lovell. So, I read the thing and it SOI..lMed good to me. Now, I can't remember precisely all that happened, but it ha:ppened fairly quickly. We had meetings the next day. We went aver that statement and made some chang'es, I'm sure and finally came out with the statement that you referred to. '!Wenty of us signed it.

Q: Were all twenty involved in writing the stat.enlent or • A: Well, I think that some •.•

Q: You knew who did the rough draft.

A: I'm not sure. At this point, I don •t recall. I kncJw when I first saw it, the rudiments were already laid out. But it was a fairly sinple stat.enlent.

Q: Yes.

A: Maybe Lovell and Dellinger would remember it. Did you ask them?

Q: I have to confess that I forgot to ask them.

A: Well, Spragg •••

Q: I've asked several people and none of them knows. A: Well, it came out of this group. No question about that. Nobody else did it. '!his was not influenced by anybody outside the students who signed it.

Q: So, you had a meeting the next day and it was kind of put together and everybody signed it?

A: Right. I met Jean on the loth of october.

Q: You hadn't met her yet?

A: We never met in Olina. We were both in China that same year.

Q: Were you?

A: In canton. Q: She was in a different exchange program?

A: No, her father was a missionary. He spent his whole vocational life in China. She grew up in China. She had her first eighteen years there. She didn't come back until she went to Barnard. So, George Houser 14 she had gone to Wooster COllege in Ohio for two years arxi then came to Bamard.

Q: Did she knoW Don Benedict's first wife? A: Oh, you mean at Barnard?

Q: '!hat's his first wife. You don't know whether she knew her? A: I don't. You'd have to ask her. Ruth.

Q: I can't think of her first name ncM.

A: His present wife is Ann.

Q: Yes, Ann.

A: Alrjway, we met at a China affair at which I was a speaker. '!hat was on October 10. Now that I can time that accurately. And we made a date that night. I actually met her on the subway as we were headin;;r back. I'd seen her and we hadn't met each other. We were both going back on the subway from 72nd street up to 116st street on the subway. I was in the same car and I want up and we started chatting. I found out she was at COlumbia and she was doing graduate work at this point. So, I walked her to McGiffert Hall, where she was stayirg. I was at Hastings Hall. Now, that was the loth of october and we made a date for the Saturday night following that, so I don • t re.me:n'iber what day the lOth was, to go to the Chinese Opera. It was that day that we were having these meetingS of our group at Union. I was involved in those meetings and I kept her waiting. We were meeting down at Times square.

Q: That Saturday you were involved in those meetings?

A: That Saturday. It may have :been a Frida:( night time, and then at Saturday meeting we signed this dog-goned thing. 'Ibis was very shortly before october 16, because I met Jean on the loth. So, actually this whole thing developed between the loth arxi the 16th. I can re.me:n'iber when we met.

Q: You all signed it, then what did you do with it? I guess I don't really know that sto:r:y.

A: I have a lot of clippings here.

Q: I've seen many of them from Bill Lovell. A: Yes. Because this thing really amazed us.

Q: You mean, how it took off.

A: Yes. We were inexperienced. I can see now from my work in organizational activities, over the years 1 that if you get a bunch of theological students to defy the United States government-we are not goir.g to register for this draft 1 because we do not believe in George Houser 15 ficjhting in a war--you get twenty young theologians .to say they're gol.'ng to do this, it is going to be big news.

Q: But you didn't think so • • •

A: We didn't even think about it.

Q: You didn 1t? Just seeing the right thing to do.

A: We put a statement out and sent it to the press and wham, it took off. So, when we sta.rte:i getting some publicity immediately, and then we refused to register • • .

Q: On the 16th?

A: october 16 at the seminary because they had somebody right there who was doing the registering and we were all given subpoenas to appear in court.

Q: So, it took off. They had the subpoenas. They must have had

A: They were ready.

Q: They were ready for you.

A: It was well announced. Everybody knew that we were goirg to do it.

Q: Well, there was not much time to get to those other people who finally didn't go through with it. uncle Henry [Henly Sloone Coffin, President of Union) only had three or four days to get them to chang'e their minds.

A: '!hat's right. But it was a lot nore than uncle Henry involved in it.

Q: He marshaled a lot of forces.

A: Well, no doubt. The publicity and then family pressure, I think, had a lot to do with it.

Q: It must have been a tough year for your family. Did they get in touch with you?

A: I think I probably got in touch with them. '!hey never tried to argue me out of it. Q: '!hey didn't? A: No, I had nothing but support from my folks. I'm not sure whether they und.erstood it exactly, but there was no pressure. Dell.inger had a lot of pressure.

Q: I und.erstand that. George Houser 16

A: Because I remember his mother said his father might die of a heart attack or sameth.ing like that. He was subjected to a lot of pressure. Q: Yes. So, you must have met during • • • A: Oh., we had meetings. Not only that, but there were people who came up. People from the FOR came to talk with us. Q: 'llley did come and talk to you?

A: A. J. Muste came over. Evan 'Ihomas. Do you knCM Evan 'Ihomas?

Q: SUre.

A: came up.

Q: I knew his mother.

A: we had meetings with Evan. In fact, I think we met Evan and A. J. together. '!here were a lot of meetings, and then the press was all over the place.

Q: Oh., was it?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: '!hey sent reporters up. Did they just come to Hastings Hall?

A: I don't even knCM what they all did. Uncle Henry, of course1 was very, very distu.:r.i:Jed.. I don't knCM what was going on as far as Neibuhr was concerned at this point.

Q: one of the others said that he [Reinhold Nei.buhr] 1 at some point, preached a sermon. '!hey said it was a • . •

A: I'm sure it was. Of course, our classmates • • • After the thing was set, then it was past the point of argument at a given moment. 'IWelve guys, for one reason or another, backed out. some decided to leave seminaJ:y and go to the CPS program. Some decided to do other things. For some, it was a wrenching experience.

Q: Yes.

A: We had a worship service in the James Chapel.

Q: You did?

A: 'Ihe night before we were to appear in court. No, it was the night before rec;ristration.

Q: Because then you weren't registered and then you went to court the next day?

A: Yes. Jean was there at that time. Geo:rge Houser 17

Q: She was? A: Oh, yes. Q: Even though you had just . . . A: We had just met each other.

Q: She thought she'd come up and see.

A: She was there. She was at the Union seminary because she was doing some work at the music school. She was in Columbia Teacher's College, right across the way, and living in Mc:Giffert Hall.

Q: She was there at the time you had that worship service? A: Yes, that's right. You could say something about that from a different perspective perhaps.

Q: Yes. I would like to return to that worship service a little longer.

A: Right. It was a very great unifying moment. I think of it that way. It was a very meaningful :rrtC'ID.lent in the life of that seminary. Here were a group of students who were going to be arrested and sent to jail.

Q: So, you knew what you were doing? A: I recall being very nervous about it. With Selective Service threatening that we might get much more than the five years out of it on a conspiracy cha:tge of some sort or we might get twenty years. So, 'Who knows? '!here was no prece:ient at that time for this thing. It had a tremendous impact.

Q: That worship service in James Olapel with the whole seminary COllUttl.1llity.

A: No, question. No, question about it. '!hen I took off for Colorado to see my folks and I went out to Denver for several .days with the folks prior to our first appearance in court.

Q: Yet, you had a month before . • .

A: Quite right. As I recall, November 14 we went to court and we were foun:i guilty. We were taken right off that picture you have there of the paddy wagon. so, we started our prison life in November.

Q: Did you make a stateJnent at that time? n:> you remember making a statement about how you felt about this?

A: Oh yes, I'm sure. When I went to Denver 1 I got headlines in the Denver Post. I guess, I probably still have some of the clippings here somePlace. I remember speaking out at the University of Denver. I had done a lot of my work in what they call the Social Science GeoJ:ge Houser 18

Foundation out there on international things. I did a lot of work there for that. So, I was in Denver and explained things to the folks. My father got himself out on a limb in the conmrunity.

Q: How's that?

A: By supporting me. He preached a sennon on it. I met out at the university with people and the reporters were around--particularly, the Denver Post, but the Rocky Mountain News was going then too. Then I came back and we went to court. We were found guilty and we each made a statement in court. We were trucked off to Danbury. That began an episcxie of nine months-plus--a year and a day sentence for time off for gocxi behavior--in which we were a part of the life there in the prison.

Q: What do you really remember about the experience of being behind bars. Just getting through it?

A: I don't remember my pacifism being affected by it. My life was affected. My p:tcifism was kind of built-in at this point. I had my theology and my rationale for taking the position.

Q: So, you didn't regret your actions.

A: If anything, it strengthened my position simply because I was involved in something. I don't recall any feeling that it had made it more real. There I was.

Q: You were in jail then until September of 1941.

A: Yes, the u.s. got in the war during this pericxi (sic). I remember there was one of our fellow prisoners, a man by the name of Winogradski, a union leader, with the Furriers Union, which was a Connninist dominated union. I used to have a lot of talks with Winogradski. He was a very interesting guy. I can remember on the day that Hitler attacked the Soviet Union walking around the yard with Winogradski. He said simply, "I'm against you guys now."

Q: Oh, my gosh!

A: It didn't mean that there were no discussions, but up to that point as long as the Hitler-Stalin pact was in operation, he as a loyal CP-er [communist Party] could look at it one way and then at that point, there was a major change.

Q: Was he there to stand for pacifism?

A: No, no. He was there on the Violation of smith Act.

Q: Okay. I didn't realize that the Smith Act was in operation then.

A: Oh, yes. He was there on a trade union charge. I think it was the smith Act at that time because Winogratski was the vice president of the union and Ben Gold was the president. He subsequently went up to Sandstone, Minnesota in the prison up there. But Joe Winogradski George Houser 19

was at Danbury. We used to have a lot of interesting talks. we had arguments with some of our fellow co's up there. I remember particularly a couple of guys, who came not because of a Christian pacifist position, but from a socialist position. One of the them was Stan Rappaport, Stan, who is now a psychiatrist in New York. '!he last time I saw hiln was at the memorial sei:Vice for Nonnan 'Ihomas some years ago. stan decided that it was good discipline from the point of view of the Socialists to have somebody representing the socialist position in every facet of social position, including prison. So, he decided that the thing for hiln to do was to refuse to register and be a leavening influence from a socialist perspective in prison. Q: That's facinating reasoning. Did you buy that reasoning? A: No. By that time, most of our group, I think, had joined the Young People's Socialist Club, YPSL. It was during that period or before that period that I joined YPSL. So, I knew Stan Rappaport and a couple of others who were up there and took the position from a socialist perspective. It wasn't just that. It was the fact that also, if you were involved in the International Socialist Movement, then the war was outside. Q: That's right? You didn't fight your brothers. A: Exactly. So, we had same theoretical discussions along those lines. For the most part, we were accepted pretty well in the prison community. one of the reasons was that we became part of the life of the prison community, in tenns of teaching courses, and. in the athletic life. Here's where Benedict was awfully i.m.!;x;>rtant because it was one of the first days we were up in Danbury. We went there in November. Danbury was a new prison. They had a softball team. There were eight of us. All of us could play sports. But Benedict was the star because he could pitch. He could pitch underhand and that ball did things. We beat the Danbury varsity, I think sixteen to one. It won some respect for those theological students. Right there! Q: I see! Right there! Was that the first thing on this ... A: That happened very soon after he went in. That was beyond the softball season in a sense. But there weren't a lot of things to do because the prison was not developed yet. I was No. 340. I was there. Mine was the lowest number. '!hey registered me first when we went in there. I think, I was 340. so, that . . .

Q: But you became a part of the life of the prison?

A: Exactly. We were writing letters for prisoners and talking with them. For the first month, we were isolated and then we were assigned to different places and to donnatories, etc. So, we were around and I became the chaplain's assistant. 'Ihe chaplain was a young fellow from Yale, who had a guilty conscience because he wasn't in there with us. He never would give me any work to do. His name was George siudy. I said, "George, I don't mind, give me some work." I was sitting at the desk. He was there only three days a week. 'Ihe rest of the time I was :running the office and anybody that came in. George Houser 20

Q: You'd have to do it?

A: I was doing it. He just didn't assign I typed a few letters and things like that. Essentially, I was around writing statements and drafting statements for our group about food or whatever it was.

Q: one or two of them said that they had sense in which it was important to identify the with the poor, and the oppressed and this was one of the reasons for it.

A: I think that was very true. There was a sense of identifying. After we were released, various of us had contact with the former inmates. I know that one fellOW' by the name of Jesse Harris, just after Jean and I had gotten married. We were out in Chicago in 1942 and Jesse came through and didn't have any place to stay and he lived with us for several months. When he left, he took a few things with him.

Q: So, you had that hospitality feel of Catholic Worker house Was Dorothy Day around then with her Catholic Workers?

A: Yes, indeed so.

Q: BUt there wasn't any contacts?

A: Well, there was limited contacts. Maybe some of the other guys had more contact than I did. I had contact with some of those who later became devotees of the Catholic Worker. People like Ammon Hennessey. Do you know his name?

Q: Yes.

A: I remember him in particular. He went to prison for a period of time and it was after our experience.

Q: Did you get down to visit those three that went down to Newark; Dallas, Dellinger and Benedict?

A: Newark.

Q: Did they live down in Newark? Did you e:ver see that?

A: I did. I was not inclined to become a part of it. That is an interesting question. It didn 1 t appeal to me for some reason. Theoretically, I liked the idea of it, but for one thing, I think, and this may have had some effect. It was pretty well dominated by Dellinger and I did not like to be in somebody else's orbit. I wanted to be there on my own.

Q: You wanted to be ind.ependent.

A: I think that in the case of Benedict and Dallas, they were very much strongly influenced by Dave. Very much so. I..ovell and Spragg and I were more inde:perrlent. Geo:rgeHouser 21

Q: You mean your threesome was more independent in a sense? A: I don't know whether we were a threesome. We weren't a threesome in the same sense. We were part of the whole group. '!here was also a fellow named Charles SWift. Do you know Charlie? Q: No, I don •t. '!his was Charlie SWift.

A: He was part of the group. He finally left the group in the Newark Christian Colony, as they called it.

Q: '!hat's right, he did, didn't he? But then he came up to live in the Bronx.

A: Well, he was doing his interning. He had gone to medical school in Philadelphia, and then he was doing his interning and was living in the Bronx, probably because we were able to get an apartment for him. so, they were there for a year or so. I guess while he was doing his interning. And then we've always kept in touch with the SWifts. 'Ihey are such great people. He's in Africa right now. '!hat's why I had a card from him, because I helped him set something up. Q: Did you contact him? A: Yes.

Q: So, he did spend some time there? A: At Newark.

Q: Was he at Yale as I:Might Hall secretary? A: If he did, I don't know about it.

Q: What were all the various protests about at the prison in Danbury? A: It was protest against the food that wasn't too good. I don't think that we were essential in organizing that. '!hat sort of came about spontaneously. But one big incident that was our issue, took place in April, 1941, on the day of what was then called the Student Strike Against War. We had always participated in it as students before going to prison. A group of us decided that we were going to honor that day while in prison. So, we had meetings with the warden to try to work it out. Saying that on this day--you've got to understand that this warden was some kind of a character. I don't know whether you talked with any of the other guys about it or not. Q: Yes, everybod.y else indicated it.

A: He took a special liking to me and I was No. 1 on the ping-pong team. He used to come after lights were out and we were locked in our cells and get me out at quarter till eleven at night to play ping-pong with him. I can remember once we were having a meeting and he prayed for us, we must have been in one of the rooms adjacent to his office. I think we must have been talking aoout this student strike. He left George Houser 22 us at a meeting for a while and went into his office and when he came back out, he was brushing off his knee and he said, "I've been praying for you." You know, we didn't quite laugh, but it was such a fake show. Gerlach was a character. I lost my position with the chaplain once because Gerlach, when he decided the chaplain wasn't there, he came in one day when I was sitting at the desk in the chaplain's office. He came in and I greeted him, and he said, "Houser, when I come in, I want you to stand up." And I said, "Warden, I respect you as a man but not as a warden and, therefore, I will not stand up. 11

Q: What did he say to that?

A: He left the room. I was reasigned the next day to the power plant where I was cleaning boilers. I was in that position for the next three months. Gerlach was a strange character. We didn't play any ping-pong after that either.

Q: Oh, you didn't? 'Ihat was the end of that.

A: 'Ihat was the end of that. Well, anyway, getting back to the student strike, we could not work out a system whereby we would be able to refuse to work on that day as part of the strike within the structure of the institution, which presl.llllably the warden was trying to work out. so, we went before the disciplinary connnittee and were given thirty days without privileges, which meant that we had to work but we spent the rest of the time in the cells. We would have our meals separate from the prison community. We would get out to go to work and then come back and stay in the cells. This was the spring of the year, April. The softball season had started. The Danbury softball team was getting shellacked. without Benedict. You probably heard this story.

Q: Oh, yes. '!hat's a good story. A: It was so amusing because the first game where the chant went up

among the prisoners for Benedict 1 the warden sent the captain in to get Benedict out. He went out and he pitched. Stopped the other guys. The team won as I remember. And then he was locked up again. Well, we talked. with Benedict about that. ]):)es this make sense to me? So, the next game, they tried to do it again and Benedict refuseci to go out. So, the warden was rather shame-faced about it, but he let us all out. We never did our thirty days.

Q: You never did your thirty days?

A: I don't remember how many days we did. We did quite a few. I 1 suppose 1 we must have been close to completion. I don t remember precisely.

Q: That was the one incident you remember.

A: As far as our getting something going.

Q: Organized? George Houser 23

A: Yes. 'Ihen we just did our time. I was then reassigned in the spring and went out to work on the fann. I loved that.

Q: Did you?

A: Yes. I did the winter cleaning boilers. I had to crawl inside these big things. I remember I got a terrible cold from the grime that got into my nostrils during that winter, and I had a tough cold, which I thought I got and. I think I probably did from the irritation. But in spring, I asked for reassignment to work on the fann. It was granted. So, I spent May or June until our release in September going through a whole growing season out on the fann. I liked it very nruch.

Q: Had you ever been on a fann before?

A: But I hadn't worked on it. I had grown gardens out in COlorado during those stn'l'll'l1.erS. I always raised a garden in 1940 in No:rwood. Some of my relatives from westen1 Permsylvania and westen1 New York are on fanns.

Q: 'Ihat is why you are familiar with them?

A: Familiar with fanns?

Q: So, the time came for you to get out and go to the seminary again? A: Right. Now, here we had trouble with Uncle Hem.y, as you nrust have gotten from the other guys. He was very conCeJ:ned. He came up to talk with us once or twice, I can't remember. 'Ihe seminary trustees had had some lengthy meetings and. they wanted to put some conditions on our return, which even in retrospect seems nonsensical to me.

Q: You still hadn't been accepted by the seminary conununity.

A: Oh, that was ridiculous. I think a ridiculous position. But nevertheless, he came up and presented the conditions. Basically, I think we had to agree to get pennission to do anything before we did it.

Q: You were not to make a statement again. A: Yes. It put limitations on our freedom of action. So, we decided, ''Well, we aren't going to do it." Five of us then decided to go to CI'S [Chicago 'Iheolcx;rical Seminary]. And three decided to go to Newark, I guess. Benedict, Dallas, and Dellinger, who went to Newark and the rest of us went out to Chicago.

Q: When you got out, is that when you got married to Jean? A: I got acquainted with Jean in prison.

Q: She visited? George Houser 24

A: She came up a half an hour, twice a month. You get an hour's visit a month, and she would come ••• Benedict and Dallas were already married.

Q: Right. She came up with them and with some of the others.

A: They had a car pool that operated for those guys. They would come up every two weeks.

Q: So, that's an intensive period of dating and getting acquainted with each other.

A: Across the visiting table. We had just met each other when I went to prison. So, I got out and I went back to New York and I had forty-eight hours before I was due in Denver. I spent that in New York. Basically, with Jean and taking my stuff out of the seminary.

Q: Oh, it was still in the seminary?

A: Some stuff was still there. And then I went back to Denver and was there for a few days before going onto Chicago. And then a group of us decided that we would not live in the seminaJ::y, but we would take a place together. Which we did then at 4257 Cottage Grove. Do you know Chicago?

Q: SUre.

A: Well, that was a border corornunity in those days. It was right on the dividing line because just west of us across Cottage Grove was pretty solidly black. And east of us was Chicago and then over to Cottage Grove over to Drexell and on to the lake.

Q: Why did you decide to do that? How did you get in the race problem at that particularly time in your life?

A: That wasn't the pri:mal:y reason.

Q: It wasn't the pri:mal:y reason?

A: No. The pri:mal:y reason was that we thought that we could perhaps do it cheaper living together and I don't know all that went into it. BUt we foun:i this place and. six of us moved in. we took turns getting meals. Bob Grant and Walt Jackson.

Q: I've interviewed Walt. He's n01.11 summering outside Rutland.

A: Up in Vennont. Did you see him up there?

Q: Yes. We had a nice chat. A: Yes.

Q: So, he was one of the ones in the apartment. A: Yes. I think there were six of us. George Houser 25

Q: Who were some of them? (inaudible)

A: I don't know. Bob Grant may have been there at a later time. Bob Grant was there. Wichlei was there. Ani Spragg and lovell and me. That's five and the other must have been Walt Jackson.

Q: Who probably came in later?

A: Walt. Maybe, he did. After Walt and I got married, within a few weeks of one another, in 1942, and he and Priscilla and Jean and I moved into this place. All the rest of the guys had scattered. We took over the apartment. So, we were there from 1942 to 1944. Walt and Priscilla were there for probably a year and then he left. Walt and Priscilla left and Jean and I stayed on until we moved to Cleveland.

Q: Oh. So, you were left all alone in that big apartment. Did you have others moving in?

A: catharine Raymond moved in. She began working with me in the FOR office in Chicago. She moved in with us.

Q: When you went to CPS, was your pacifism or your socialism or whatever you were, ideology change at that time?

A: No.

Q: Or was it reconstructed?

A: No, it was pretty much the same. I was then on the staff of the FOR. A. J. [Muste] recruited me. I still have the letters here in my files from A. J. about working with the FOR.

Q: How did he happen to pick you out?

A: I don't know.

Q: He wrote you in Denver?

A: Yes.

Q: In Denver.

A: Ani offered me a secretaryship. I may have gotten in touch with him. I don't have all of the correspondence. I may have written to him. It's possible, but it could have worked the other way as well. It also could have happened through John SWomley, because John and I were cont.enporaries. Both having come through the National Council of Methodist Youth. John was by this time on the staff of the FOR.

Q: He may have suggested . • •

A: I think they were looking for young, active persons to work in the field for the FOR around the country. John was a very good organizer. George Houser 26

Q: What kinds of programs were they doing?

A: I think that John had something to do with A. J. getting in touch with me. Since I was going to crs, would I like to work with the FOR and do youth work in the Chicago area. My concentration would be on youth. See, there was a midwest secretary. Herman Will was the secretary of the midwest FOR. I opened up an office down at 740 Rush Street in Chicago, next to the midwest office. My task was to cover the Chicago area. There was all kinds of schools and colleges and so forth all over the • • .

Q: Draft counseling before there was such a thing.

A: No, no. We were organizing and the war was on. We were organizing picket lines, poster walks. Training programs of one sort or another on nonviolence, and then we got into the race thing.

Q: Yes.

A: We picketed theatres where they were showing films. Depicting the Japanese as mongrels.

Q: I didn't know you did that?

A: Oh, sure. We protested the draft.

Q: Even though the war was on. Wasn't that an unpopular thing to do? A: Well, we figured the whole thing was unpopular. We organized a camrnittee. I have up in my office. I will have to show you this. It was dated in 1943. Pictures from the Chicago Daily News, which is no longer published, showing a picket line in front of the British Consulate on Walker Drive in Chicago. The British Consulate was there for picketing for India independence. Jean and I and several other people were in this picket line, which I organized. Februcuy was a cold day.

End of Tape One, Side Two

Q: Okay. So, you were talking about the basic work, the youth work. Why was that separate from the regular work? In other words 1 these were for college students and for high school students to be involved in this project?

A: Well, remember I was tcying to finish seminary. From my point of view, this was something more interesting than going into a church as an assistant pastor or something like that as a field work assignment.

My field work assigrnnent, which was accepted. by the seminary 1 but I would have done it anyway. I just put a year in prison and the war was on. I felt that this was what I wanted to do.

Q: You wanted to go on witnessing to the fact that this war should not be ...