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NATIONAL SECURITY and DEFENCE SÉCURITÉ NATIONALE ET DE LA DÉFENSE the Honourable Colin Kenny, Chair Président : L’Honorable Colin Kenny the Honourable J

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NATIONAL SECURITY and DEFENCE SÉCURITÉ NATIONALE ET DE LA DÉFENSE the Honourable Colin Kenny, Chair Président : L’Honorable Colin Kenny the Honourable J First Session Première session de la Thirty-eighth Parliament, 2004-05 trente-huitième législature, 2004-2005 SENATE OF CANADA SÉNAT DU CANADA Proceedings of the Standing Délibérations du Comité Senate Committee on sénatorial permanent de la National Security Sécurité nationale et and Defence de la défense Chair: Président : The Honourable COLIN KENNY L'honorable COLIN KENNY Monday, January 31, 2005 Le lundi 31 janvier 2005 Tuesday, February 1, 2005 Le mardi 1er février 2005 Issue No. 9 Fascicule no 9 Fifteenth, sixteenth, seventeenth Quinzième, seizième, dix-septième and eighteenth meetings on: et dix-huitième réunions concernant : Canada's national security policy La politique de sécurité nationale du Canada INCLUDING: Y COMPRIS : THE FOURTH REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE LE QUATRIÈME RAPPORT DU COMITÉ (Budget — Additional funds) (Budget — fonds additionnels) WITNESSES: TÉMOINS : (See back cover) (Voir à l'endos) 42148-42149-42150-42151 THE STANDING SENATE COMMITTEE ON LE COMITÉ SÉNATORIAL PERMANENT DE LA NATIONAL SECURITY AND DEFENCE SÉCURITÉ NATIONALE ET DE LA DÉFENSE The Honourable Colin Kenny, Chair Président : L'honorable Colin Kenny The Honourable J. Michael Forrestall, Deputy Chair Vice-président : L'honorable J. Michael Forrestall and et The Honourable Senators: Les honorables sénateurs : Atkins Downe Atkins Downe * Austin, P.C. * Kinsella * Austin, C.P. * Kinsella (or Rompkey, P.C.) (or Stratton) (ou Rompkey, C.P.) (ou Stratton) Banks Meighen Banks Meighen Cordy Nolin Cordy Nolin Day Day *Ex officio members *Membres d'office (Quorum 4) (Quorum 4) Changes in membership of the committee: Modification de la composition du comité : Pursuant to rule 85(4), the membership of the committee was Conformément à l'article 85(4) du Règlement, la liste des amended as follows: membres du Comité est modifiée, ainsi qu'il suit : The name of the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton is Le nom de l'honorable sénateur Lynch-Staunton est substitué à substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Nolin celui de l'honorable sénateur Nolin (le 14 décembre 2004). (December 14, 2004). The name of the Honourable Senator Nolin is substituted for that Le nom de l'honorable sénateur Nolin est substitué à celui de of the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton (January 28, 2005). l'honorable sénateur Lynch-Staunton (le 28 janvier 2005). The name of the Honourable Senator Downe is substituted for Le nom de l'honorable sénateur Downe est substitué à celui de that of the Honourable Senator Munson (January 31, 2005). l'honorable sénateur Munson (le 31 janvier 2005). Published by the Senate of Canada Publié par le Sénat du Canada Available from: Public Works and Government Services Canada Disponible auprès des: Travaux publics et Services gouvernementaux Canada ± Publishing and Depository Services, Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0S5 Les Éditions et Services de dépôt, Ottawa (Ontario) K1A 0S5 Also available on the Internet: http://www.parl.gc.ca Aussi disponible sur internet: http://www.parl.gc.ca 1-2-2005 Sécurité nationale et défense 9:3 MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS PROCÈS-VERBAUX SAINT JOHN, Monday, January 31, 2005 SAINT JOHN, le lundi 31 janvier 2005 (16) (16) [English] [Traduction] The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Le Comité sénatorial permanent de la sécurité nationale et de Defence met this day at 10:30 a.m. in Royal Ballroom C, Delta la défense se réunit aujourd'hui, à 10 h 30, dans la salle de bal Brunswick, the Chair, the Honourable Colin Kenny, presiding. Royal C du Delta Brunswick, sous la présidence de l'honorable Colin Kenny (président). Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Membres du comité présents : Les honorables sénateurs Atkins, Banks, Day, Forrestall, Kenny, Meighen and Nolin (7). Atkins, Banks, Day, Forrestall, Kenny, Meighen et Nolin (7). In attendance: From the Parliamentary Research Branch, Également présents : De la Direction de la recherche Library of Parliament: William Price, Analyst; Major General parlementaire, Bibliothèque du Parlement : William Price, (Ret'd) Keith McDonald, Senior Military Advisor; Captain (N) analyste; le major-général (à la retraite) Keith McDonald, Kenneth Stewart, DND Liaison Officer; Sergeant Harold conseiller militaire principal; le capitaine de vaisseau Kenneth O'Connell, RCMP Liaison Officer; Barry Denofsky, National Stewart, agent de liaison du MDN; le sergent Harold O'Connell, Security Advisor; and Veronica Morris, Communications Officer. agent de liaison de la GRC; Barry Denofsky, conseiller à la sécurité nationale; et Veronica Morris, agent de communications. Also present: The official reporters of the Senate. Aussi présents : Les sténographes officiels du Sénat. Pursuant to the Order of Reference adopted by the Senate on Conformément à l'ordre de renvoi adopté par le Sénat le Wednesday, October 20, 2004, the committee continued its mercredi 20 octobre 2004, le comité poursuit son examen examination on the need for a national security policy for de la politique de sécurité nationale du Canada. (L'ordre de Canada. (See Issue No. 1, Monday, October 25, 2004, of the renvoi figure dans le fascicule no 1 du lundi 25 octobre 2004 committee's proceedings for the full text of the Order of Reference.) du comité.) WITNESSES: TÉMOINS : University of New Brunswick: Université du Nouveau-Brunswick : Marc Milner, Director, Military and Strategic Studies Marc Milner, directeur, Programme des études militaires et Program. stratégiques. As an individual: À titre personnel : C.W.O. (ret.) Nicolaas deVries. L'adjudant-chef (à la retraite) Nicolaas deVries. The Chair made an opening statement. Le président fait une déclaration. Marc Milner made a presentation and answered questions. Marc Milner fait une déclaration et répond aux questions. Nicolaas DeVries made a presentation and answered questions. Nicolaas deVries fait une déclaration et répond aux questions. At 12:20 p.m., the committee suspended its sitting. À 12 h 20, le comité suspend ses travaux. At 12:30 p.m., the committee resumed its sitting in camera in À 12 h 30, le comité reprend ses travaux à huis clos dans la the Manchester Room, Delta Brunswick. salle Manchester, hôtel Delta Brunswick. In accordance with rule 92(2)(e), the committee considered its Conformément à l'alinéa 92(2)e) du Règlement, le comité draft agenda. examine le projet d'ordre du jour. At 1:10 p.m., the committee adjourned to the call of the Chair. À 13 h 10, le comité suspend ses travaux jusqu'à nouvelle convocation de la présidence. ATTEST: ATTESTÉ : 9:4 National Security and Defence 1-2-2005 SAINT JOHN, Monday, January 31, 2005 SAINT JOHN, le lundi 31 janvier 2005 (17) (17) [English] [Traduction] The Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Le Comité sénatorial permanent de la sécurité nationale et de Defence met this day at 1:20 p.m., in Royal Ballroom C, Delta la défense se réunit aujourd'hui, à 13 h 20, dans la salle de bal Brunswick, the Chair, the Honourable Colin Kenny, presiding. Royal C du Delta Brunswick, sous la présidence de l'honorable Colin Kenny (président). Members of the committee present: The Honourable Senators Membres du comité présents : Les honorables sénateurs Atkins, Banks, Cordy, Day, Forrestall, Kenny, Meighen and Atkins, Banks, Cordy, Day, Forrestall, Kenny, Meighen et Nolin (8). Nolin (8). In attendance: From the Parliamentary Research Branch, Également présents : De la Direction de la recherche Library of Parliament: William Price, Analyst; Major General parlementaire, Bibliothèque du Parlement : William Price, (Ret'd) Keith McDonald, Senior Military Advisor; Captain (N) analyste; le major-général (à la retraite) Keith McDonald, Kenneth Stewart, DND Liaison Officer; Sergeant Harold conseiller militaire principal; le capitaine de vaisseau Kenneth O'Connell, RCMP Liaison Officer; Barry Denofsky, National Stewart, agent de liaison du MDN; le sergent Harold O'Connell, Security Advisor; and Veronica Morris, Communications Officer. agent de liaison de la GRC; Barry Denofsky, conseiller à la sécurité nationale; et Veronica Morris, agent de communications. Also present: The official reporters of the Senate. Aussi présents : Les sténographes officiels du Sénat. Pursuant to the Order of Reference adopted by the Senate on Conformément à l'ordre de renvoi adopté par le Sénat le Wednesday, October 20, 2004, the committee continued its mercredi 20octobre 2004, le comité poursuit son examen examination on the need for a national security policy for de la politique de sécurité nationale du Canada. (L'ordre de Canada. (See Issue No. 1, Monday, October 25, 2004, of the renvoi figure dans le fascicule no 1 du lundi 25 octobre 2004.) committee's proceedings for the full text of the Order of Reference.) WITNESSES: TÉMOINS : National Defence, CFB Gagetown: Défense nationale, BFC Gagetown : Lieutenant-Colonel Steve Bowes, Armour School; Le lieutenant-colonel Steve Bowes, École du Corps blindé; Lieutenant-Colonel Brian Douglas, Artillery School; Le lieutenant-colonel Brian Douglas, École d'Artillerie; Lieutenant-Colonel René Melançon, Infantry School; Le lieutenant-colonel René Melançon, École d'Infanterie; Lieutenant-Colonel Pat McAdam, Tactics School; Le lieutenant-colonel Pat McAdam, École de la Tactique; Lieutenant-Colonel Ranjeet K. Gupta, Canadian Forces Le lieutenant-colonel Ranjeet K. Gupta, École du Génie School of Military Engineering. militaire des Forces canadiennes. National Defence: Défense nationale : Brigadier-General R.R. Romses, Commander, Land Forces Le brigadier-général R.R. Romses, commandant, Secteur de Atlantic Area; l'Atlantique
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