Vol. 774 Thursday No. 36 8 September 2016

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Questions Brexit: Belfast Agreement...... 1123 Employment: Remuneration...... 1125 Zimbabwe ...... 1128 Brexit: Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010...... 1131 Business of the House Motion on Standing Orders ...... 1133 Business of the House Timing of Debates...... 1133 Civil Society and Lobbying Motion to Take Note...... 1133 Grammar Schools Statement...... 1177 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 Motion to Take Note...... 1180 National Minimum Wage (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2016 Motion to Approve ...... 1209 Pensions Act 2014 (Consequential Amendments) Order 2016 Motion to Approve ...... 1215

Grand Committee Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014 Question for Short Debate...... GC 149 Universal Declaration of Human Rights Question for Short Debate...... GC 160 Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards Question for Short Debate...... GC 175 Schools: Admissions Question for Short Debate...... GC 190 Legislation Question for Short Debate...... GC 205 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2016-09-08

The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2016, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1123 Brexit: Belfast Agreement [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Brexit: Belfast Agreement 1124

House of Lords internal agreement between the parties in Northern Ireland but an international treaty between two sovereign Thursday 8 September 2016 states of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland? As such, can he tell us whether it is lodged 11 am with the European Union and, if so, what implications would the withdrawal of one of the parties from the Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Truro. European Union have on the status of that international treaty?

Brexit: Belfast Agreement Viscount Younger of Leckie: It is true what the noble Question Lord says: it is an interrelated agreement—it is power sharing for Northern Ireland and it is quite a complicated 11.06 am agreement, but there is no reason to suggest that the Tabled by Lord Rana outcome of the referendum means that the agreement needs to be revisited. Perhaps I can reassure the noble To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Lord on that. The UK Government, Irish Government assessment of the impact of Brexit on the future of and Northern Ireland political parties are fully committed the Belfast Agreement. to upholding the agreement and its successors.

Lord Dholakia (LD): My Lords, on behalf of the Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, is my noble Lord, Lord Rana, and at his request, I beg leave noble friend aware that the Republic of Ireland has to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order shown some interest recently in associate membership Paper. of the Commonwealth? Do Her Majesty’s Government consider that this could be useful in resolving some of the border problems which are being discussed? If so, Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con): My Lords, the willtheGovernmentconsiderpressingtheCommonwealth future of the Belfast agreement is not, and never has authorities to develop the relationship with the Republic been, in question. The UK’s exit from the EU does not of Ireland which is already blossoming quite strongly? change the commitment of the UK Government and the people of Northern Ireland to the Belfast agreement, its successors and the institutions that they establish. Viscount Younger of Leckie: This is a helpful comment The Government will make a success of the UK’s exit from my noble friend. I know that the new Secretary from the EU and continue to build a brighter, more of State for Northern Ireland has hit the ground secure future for Northern Ireland. running, if I may put it that way. He has been meeting a variety of parties to ensure that he gets into his new role. I will pass that message on. Lord Dholakia: My Lords, the Minister is aware that Northern Ireland has a border with another EU country. Under the Belfast agreement, most people Lord Rogan (UUP): My Lords, several Ministers living in Northern Ireland are entitled to dual citizenship. have repeatedly stated that our land frontier with the Many people already carry Irish passports and, since European Union will not be a hard border. What the referendum, many more—including unionists—have discussions have the Government had with the applied for Irish passports to protect their status as Government of the Republic of Ireland to determine EU citizens. Can the Minister explain how the the exact nature of this, our only land border? Government will work to secure the retention of EU citizens’ rights, including the free movement of goods Viscount Younger of Leckie: It is clearly a priority and people across the Irish border? Does he agree with and I can reassure the noble Lord that discussions are me that this is a unique situation affecting 1.8 million already taking place. There is—and always has been—a people and can he explain how Brexit affects them? strong will to preserve the common travel area and to ensure that we do not have a hard border. This is what Viscount Younger of Leckie: The noble Lord quite the Government are working towards. rightly points out the important rights afforded to the people of Northern Ireland under the Belfast agreement. Lord Hain (Lab): My Lords, is not the problem that Let me reaffirm that there is nothing in the outcome of this is the first time in history that Northern Ireland the referendum that undermines the Government’s and the Republic will be on opposite sides of a European rock-solid commitment to that agreement and its border? They joined together in 1973; although the successors. The Government recognise the very real common travel area has been in existence since the benefits of the common travel area; the open border early 1920s, there were tough security controls and for people and businesses has served us well. The border checks during the Troubles. Is it not unthinkable Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has been very that, in an era of mass refugee migration and jihadi clear that it is an absolute priority for him that we, terrorism, the only land border between the UK and “do not … see a return to the borders of the past”.—[Official the EU would be completely open? Report, Commons, 20/7/16; col. 815.] Viscount Younger of Leckie: The point is well made Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab): Will the Minister by the noble Lord, who has much experience in this confirm that the Belfast agreement is not just an particular area. I want to reassure him that this is very 1125 Brexit: Belfast Agreement [LORDS] Employment: Remuneration 1126

[VISCOUNT YOUNGER OF LECKIE] The Lord Bishop of St Albans: I thank the Minister much at the top of the agenda. On the one hand, we for her reply. I wonder whether she has read the report want to have a soft, not a hard border. At the same published last week by the High Pay Centre written by time, all parties are well aware of the security issues Chris Philp, the Conservative Member for Croydon and of people passing to and fro. South, which makes a number of recommendations, including requiring firms to create a shareholder Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD): My Lords, the Belfast committee with the power to ratify pay packages agreement gives encouragement to the use of European comprised of shareholders with longer-term holdings Union resources in Northern Ireland—and across the in the company. Will these proposals be part of the island of Ireland as a whole. Presently, £3.5 billion is consultation that will be published? scheduled to be spent between 2014 and 2020 for peace, INTERREG, rural development and agricultural Baroness Neville-Rolfe: I have not yet read the support. What comfort can the Minister give that report, although I know that it was discussed in the these resources, planned to be available for the entire House and I think it makes a very useful contribution. period of the 2014-2020 programmes, can be honoured? As I see it, that idea is in the mix of what we will consult on. The underlying objective is to make Viscount Younger of Leckie: The first thing to say shareholders exercise much better oversight over company to reassure the noble Lord is that the UK will continue decision-making. The changes that we will be looking to have all the rights, obligations and benefits that at, and indeed prior reforms, have been directed at this membership brings—including receiving European objective—some with more success than others. funding—up to the point at which we leave the EU. We recognise that many organisations across the UK Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): My Lords, does which are in receipt of EU funding, or expect to start my noble friend know that many of the big institutions receiving it, want reassurance about this. The Chancellor contract out their voting to other organisations at of the Exchequer has confirmed that structural investment company AGMs? Is not the key to ensuring that funds projects, signed before the Autumn Statement, remuneration is brought under proper control that and the Horizon research funding that has been granted, those institutional shareholders exercise their rights will be guaranteed. and that the Government change the rules so that votes on executive pay at shareholder meetings are Lord Kilclooney (CB): My Lords, as someone involved binding on boards? in the negotiations of the Belfast agreement, can I ask the Minister whether the Council of Europe Convention Baroness Neville-Rolfe: My noble friend makes a for the Protection of Human Rights is a requirement very good point about voting. I am glad to say that in the Belfast agreement? Secondly, since there are one of the options we will be looking at is binding now more people from Poland than from the Republic votes, for the reasons that he says. of Ireland living in Northern Ireland, will both those with Irish passports and those with Polish passports Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD): My Lords, it seems be guaranteed their future in Northern Ireland after to me that the problem is that companies benchmark Brexit? their executive pay against other companies in the marketplace. Does the Minister agree that a more Viscount Younger of Leckie: I can only repeat what diverse range of company models in the marketplace, I said in my first Answer which is that the Belfast such as mutuals where workers are also shareholders, agreement remains intact and we do not envisage any would bring a greater sense of proportion to executive changes. pay and have a stabilising effect on pay in the marketplace generally?

Employment: Remuneration Baroness Neville-Rolfe: The noble Baroness is right Question that there is a place for comparisons, although, as somebody who sat on a number of boards, I actually 11.14 am think that one needs to look at the overall position Asked by The Lord Bishop of St Albans and in relation to the wider workforce. That is something that we will certainly look at as part of the consultation To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they that we will publish, because some of this stuff is intend to address the gap between the remuneration complicated and we need to make sure that we talk to of senior executives and their employees. people on the detail.

The Minister of State, Department for Business, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con): My Lords, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) my noble friend referred to the importance of increasing (Con): We intend to publish a consultation document shareholder power. Is she aware that individual later this year which will set out a range of options for shareholders in particular are increasingly under pressure improving corporate governance, including measures to hold their shares through nominees? The nominee to strengthen the way executive pay is set and reported. holder is not required to send on information to the This follows on, and is in line with, the Prime Minister’s individual shareholder about the company in which he statements on this important subject. or she has a holding. They are therefore disenfranchised. 1127 Employment: Remuneration [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Zimbabwe 1128

Would it not be a good idea to make a simple legal sense of strategy and long-term planning, and that change which would require nominee companies to helps to encourage innovation and R&D. enfranchise and inform the people who actually hold the shares? Lord Haskel (Lab): Some companies publish a ratio between the top salaries and the bottom salaries. As Baroness Neville-Rolfe: My noble friend, as always, part of the Government’s consultation, are they going brings unusual insights to the debate. It sounds as to seek some kind of standard—some kind of ideal though this is a point that he and I should discuss ratio—for this sort of thing? further, because clearly we want to make sure that shareholders are exercising the oversight that we all Baroness Neville-Rolfe: As the noble Lord will know, want. the devil is in the detail in these matters. Certainly however, requiring the publication of the ratio between Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, the CEO’s pay and the relevant average is something there is an irony in this Question being answered we will be looking at. That is coming in in the United today, in that later today we will consider a statutory States in 2017, as he will know. We need to learn from instrument which makes a welcome increase to the that experience and, as I have said, try through our national minimum wage by the order of 25p per hour. consultation to come to the right changes in this An earlier report by the High Pay Centre, which is a important area. cross-party initiative, reported that FTSE 100 CEOs had just enjoyed a 10% pay increase to over £5.1 million per annum on average in the last year. Can I press the Zimbabwe Minister a little further on what will be in the consultation? Question She mentioned a number of things, but the Prime Minister’scomments, to which I think the noble Baroness 11.21 am referred, are that she would like to see not just consumers represented on company boards but employees as Asked by Lord Oates well, and she wants to see more transparency on pay, including making shareholder votes on corporate pay To ask Her Majesty’s Government what guidance not just advisory but binding. Will the noble Baroness they provide to United Kingdom financial institutions confirm that? regarding the provision of bailout funds to the government of Zimbabwe. Baroness Neville-Rolfe: We are looking at the precise wording of the consultation document, but the idea is Baroness Goldie (Con): My Lords, there is no bailout to explore the various ideas that the Prime Minister set for the Zimbabwean Government and no British taxpayer out so eloquently in this area. That would include money is used to fund that Government. The Government binding votes, employee representation, which I am of Zimbabwe are in discussion with private sector aware of because I used to sit on a German board—it banks to arrange a financial package to clear their has pluses and minuses—and, of course, full disclosure debt arrears to the international financial institutions. of bonus arrangements. We do not provide specific guidance about the provision of funds to Zimbabwe, but if asked, we would discuss the situation, highlighting the financial and political Lord Tebbit (Con): Does my noble friend agree that risks of operating in Zimbabwe. it might help to bring a different dimension to these discussions if, occasionally, we referred not to the “shareholders” but to the “owners” of businesses and Lord Oates (LD): I am grateful to the Minister for not to the “executives”but to the “hirelings”who operate her Answer. She will be aware of the deep disquiet on behalf of the owners? among people in Zimbabwe at the news that the British embassy in Harare had facilitated a meeting Baroness Neville-Rolfe: I thank my noble friend for this year between the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, his interesting and provocative remark. chairman of Lazard International, and Finance Minister Patrick Chinamasa. I am sure the Minister will recognise that the provision of any bailout funds to the ZANU-PF The Earl of Erroll (CB): Is there not also a deeper regime in Zimbabwe will only prolong the misery and problem, which is that many of these remuneration suffering of the Zimbabwean people. It will inevitably packages of senior executives are geared towards profit be used to fund the salaries of the Zimbabwean armed targets in various ways? The quickest and easiest way forces and the Zimbabwe Republic Police force—salaries of doing this is to axe the visionary research and which are overdue at present. These are the very development programmes in order to increase the organs of state that are currently in violation of the bottom line temporarily to get their rewards. As a constitution of Zimbabwe, in defiance of the orders of result, some of our larger companies are suffering the High Court of Zimbabwe and committing gross from, I would say, a lack of vision, expansion and human rights abuses against the people of Zimbabwe. innovation. Will the Minister therefore give an unambiguous statement to this House, and more importantly to the ZANU-PF Baroness Neville-Rolfe: The noble Earl knows that I regime, that we as a people and a Government will share his passion for innovation and R&D. I believe oppose any further funds to the Zimbabwean Government we need a governance framework that ensures a good until they have demonstrated a sustained adherence to 1129 Zimbabwe [LORDS] Zimbabwe 1130

[LORD OATES] will not of itself trigger a resumption of relations. We the constitution of Zimbabwe and an end to the gross have made it clear that there has to be progress on the human rights abuses of the people of Zimbabwe? very type of reforms to which I alluded earlier. We are endeavouring to support the people of Zimbabwe, Baroness Goldie: I thank the noble Lord for his who are vulnerable and in a fragile condition. I referred extensive observation. He makes an important point. earlier to some of the support that the British Government There are justifiable concerns about human rights, have been able to provide. We have been able to governance and the political system in Zimbabwe. I provide food security for over 1 million people; we reassure him that the British Government persistently have been able to help hundreds of thousands of and resolutely make representations to the Zimbabwean children to attend primary school; we have been able Government about our concerns, asking that the rule to assist with clean water and sanitation projects; and of law be observed and that democratic rights be we have been helping to reduce the maternal mortality respected. I should point out to the noble Lord that we ratio. Those are all moves that we achieve and on have an ambassadorial presence in Harare, and that is which we make progress not by dealing directly with very important. It is a necessary diplomatic conduit the Zimbabwean Government but by using our for the work that the British Government do—not in implementing partners and other agencies to deliver funding the Zimbabwean Government but, for example, help to the very people who need support but currently in providing invaluable help for infrastructure projects do not get it from their own Government. by working with implementing partners and NGOs. However, at the end of the day, what other financial Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, when institutions choose to do with a foreign Government is the time comes, but not before that time, will the not really under the control of the British Government. Government encourage the Commonwealth authorities and the Commonwealth Secretariat to consider welcoming Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, one Zimbabwe back into the Commonwealth family of thing that is clear is that the human rights situation in nations? Zimbabwe is getting worse. There is a lot that the United Kingdom Government can do, particularly in terms of sanctions against individuals, which they Baroness Goldie: My noble friend’s aspiration is currently impose on the President of Zimbabwe. Can positive. Ultimately, there would be a desire to do that the noble Baroness explain why the Finance Minister, but the Zimbabwean Government would have to achieve Mr Chinamasa, has had that embargo removed? Why a very great deal before we were able to enter into a are we not exerting more leverage and using the authority more formal relationship. There is an overdue need for that we have now to restore human rights? serious fundamental reform. We have to have evidence that the Government in Zimbabwe are themselves serious about addressing these reforms, and we need Baroness Goldie: The noble Lord makes an important to see visible and tangible evidence of that before any point about human rights. We consider the human further relationship can be contemplated. rights situation to be stable but fragile, and, as I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Oates, we will continue to raise concerns about individual cases. We Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD): My Lords, monitor the situation closely and are able to do so perhaps I may draw the noble Baroness’s attention to because of our embassy in Harare. We regularly call, the original point of this Question. I myself have both bilaterally and in partnership with EU member benefited from facilitation by our embassies and missions states, for an end to all abuses and for the restoration abroad, as many other Members of the House of of internationally accepted human rights standards. Lords may have done. However, does she not accept In relation to sanctions, I reassure the noble Lord that that there was a slight error of judgment on the part of there is an arms embargo against Zimbabwe and active our high commissioner in Zimbabwe in facilitating a sanctions against President Mugabe and his wife, Grace. well-known lobbying group to carry out business on That extends to travel bans and all financial dealings, behalf of a financial institution with a Government and their assets in the EU are frozen. who are legendary only for their human rights abuses and deep financial corruption? Lord St John of Bletso (CB): My Lords, with the rapidly deteriorating macroeconomic situation in Baroness Goldie: If the noble Baroness is alluding Zimbabwe and the growing social unrest, what can to the reference by the noble Lord, Lord Oates, to the Her Majesty’s Government do to support much-needed visit by the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, I should reforms? More specifically, to what degree are the make it clear that the noble Lord visited Zimbabwe in Government of Zimbabwe genuine in their re-engagement a personal capacity in February of this year. He had with the West? Does the Minister agree that any been in a private engagement in South Africa. He financial support to Zimbabwe should be tied to radical simply asked the British Government if he could be reforms in the country? helpful in promoting their objectives in Zimbabwe and, given his experience, our Government said that Baroness Goldie: On the general front, in relation to he could reinforce the case for reform, which I think is Zimbabwe’s indebtedness to the World Bank, the UK what we all want to see. To that end, the British is party to that organisation and we have made it clear embassy in Harare facilitated the meeting, which was that the indebtedness must be cleared. However, that attended by the British ambassador. It was constructive 1131 Zimbabwe [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Brexit 1132 and focused on the need for economic and rule-of-law Lord Bridges of Headley: I welcome the noble Baroness reforms. That is precisely the kind of dialogue that is to her position. I look forward very much to the essential if we are to see any progress made. conversations that we are bound to have over the weeks and months ahead. I repeat what my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said and I repeated in this Brexit: Constitutional Reform and House on Monday, that, Governance Act 2010 “we are determined to build a national consensus”.—[Official Question Report, Commons, 5/9/16; cols. 879.] In doing that, we need to involve this House and the 11.30 am other place and to have as much scrutiny and consultation as possible. I also thank the European Union Committee Asked by Lord Wallace of Saltaire for its excellent report Scrutinising Brexit: The Role of Parliament, which came out in July. In paragraph 21, To ask Her Majesty’s Government at what stage it said: or stages of the European Union exit negotiations the requirements of Part 2 of the Constitutional “It is clear,therefore,that parliamentary scrutinyof the negotiations will have to strike a balance between, on the one hand, the desire Reform and Governance Act 2010 will be fulfilled. for transparency, and on the other, the need to avoid undermining the UK’s negotiating position. We note that parliamentary scrutiny TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department has shown itself, in practice, to be highly flexible”. for Exiting the European Union (Lord Bridges of Headley) I am sure that noble Lords may have mechanisms for (Con): My Lords, the precise timing, terms and means how we might achieve that in such a way as to address by which we leave the European Union will be determined the points that the noble Baroness made. by the negotiations that follow the triggering of Article 50.Wewillobserveinfullallrelevantlegalandconstitutional Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): My Lords, there is obligations that apply. nothing more irritating on a journey than having people in the back seat saying, “Are we nearly there Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, as the yet?”. I welcome the positive statement by the noble Minister recognised, we are now in some confusion Baroness, but if we are to embark on a journey, would over sovereignty—Bernard Jenkin and others suggest it also be helpful to not have people constantly trying that we can abrogate the limits on external sovereignty to make us do a U-turn? and ignore international law. The Minister is too young to remember Margaret Thatcher’s remarks against Lord Bridges of Headley: The noble Lord is right. I moving from parliamentary to popular sovereignty, am reminded about this tendency by my seven year-old but we are clearly moving away a little. The Government twins every time we get in the car. I repeat that I totally have suggested that we can move towards exerting understand and sympathise with what the noble Baroness Article 50 by prerogative sovereignty.Executive sovereignty is saying about the need to provide the appropriate and popular sovereignty take us a long way away from level of scrutiny. However, as my right honourable parliamentary sovereignty, which the Constitutional friend the Prime Minister said in the other place Reform and Governance Act was intended to strengthen. yesterday, we cannot provide a running commentary. Can we have a reassurance from the Government that It is very important that we strike a balance between the rules of that Act will be followed very closely as informing, engaging and consulting while also protecting the Government move towards treaty renegotiation? the national interest.

Lord Bridges of Headley: I think I got that question, Lord Myners (CB): My Lords— and I thank the noble Lord for it. The Government are very clear about the obligations of the Constitutional Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): My Lords— Reform and Governance Act 2010, which states clearly that both Houses of Parliament have a role in approving Noble Lords: Cross Bench! treaties as set out in the Act. As I said in my first statement, we will observe in full all relevant legal and constitutional obligations that apply. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: He used to be one of us.

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): My Lords, Lord Myners: The noble Lord is renowned for his leaving the EU is not a simple step outside but a courtesy and therefore I could anticipate his response. journey. The Government need to set objectives for Does the Minister believe that it is possible for us to their negotiations to get the best deal for what comes leave the European Union without a parliamentary vote? after we leave. They need a clear map of the hurdles, the challenges and indeed the opportunities, as well as Lord Bridges of Headley: My Lords, as I said, we the ways of handling emerging issues. It is vital that are determined to follow the constitutional obligations Parliament and, through us, the public are engaged that apply. As my right honourable friend the Secretary with this every step of the way as to how we leave the of State said on Monday, the aspects of the European EU and our relationships afterwards.Will the Government Communities Act 1972 that are required to be repealed commit to ensuring that level of engagement throughout and the aspects of the acquis communautaire that the process, so that any final vote that may happen need to be carried into British law are important joint would be on the basis of a developing consensus? issues that have to be decided. Once we have got to the 1133 Brexit [LORDS] Civil Society and Lobbying 1134

[LORD BRIDGES OF HEADLEY] I am delighted to open this debate, during which I point of deciding what we need to do in that regard, predict we will hear amazing stories of the brilliant work we will come back to the House at the first possible done by charities, large and small, local and national, opportunity. which form part of the rich tapestry of civic life. Britain is well known for the Olympics, the Paralympics, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, further to the warm beer, cricket, football, weather and the Royal question of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, does the Family, but also for our charities and a major political Minister agree that if one is going on a journey it is party having been created by voluntary organisations— important to know the destination? Will he pluck up that is, the trade unions—which represented manual his courage and say to the Prime Minister that her workers at a time when they had no voice in Parliament. accountability to Parliament should not be described Indeed, well before the unions established the Labour as a running commentary? Party, they were lobbying on behalf of their members, their families and their communities. Lord Bridges of Headley: That is not how my right Likewise, charities have transformed society, often honourable friend’s comment should be perceived. driven by extraordinary individuals such as Lord Rix, Brexit means leaving the European Union, as we said whose death we recorded so sadly on Monday, who on Monday. not only ensured that support was available to families but also campaigned on their behalf. He was a shining example of where not only the individual’sown experience Business of the House but organisations representing such groups give voice Motion on Standing Orders to their beneficiaries. However, despite the role that charities played in 11.36 am providing education, health, pensions and insurance— Moved by Baroness Evans of Bowes Park before the state took responsibility—and despite the testimony of your Lordships about the current work That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill of charities, the Government have sought to clip the to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Tuesday wings of charities,and of government-funded independent 13 September to enable the Finance Bill to be taken organisations such as universities, by restricting their through its remaining stages that day. ability to share their expertise with decision-makers, be that Government or Parliament. They similarly Motion agreed. set out to curtail trade unions by undermining their funding. Business of the House What is extraordinary is that, even as they sought Timing of Debates to hamper charities’ efforts on behalf of clients, the Government did nothing to increase transparency or 11.36 am lobbying by big business. Neither commercial interests nor the media are constrained in their attempts to Moved by Baroness Evans of Bowes Park influence government, while charities experience a “chilling” effect on their duty to speak on behalf of That the debate on the motion in the name of beneficiaries, as I am sure we will shortly hear from Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town set down for today the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries. shall be limited to 3 hours and that in the name of Viscount Hanworth to 2 hours. I am not against legitimate lobbying by industry. Businesses need to thrive and they are helped in that Motion agreed. by having understanding of legislative, trade and financial frameworks. However, that lobbying should be open, transparent and regulated, particularly where it may Civil Society and Lobbying be about international interests gaining secret access Motion to Take Note to government. However, despite David Cameron’s warning that lobbying was the next scandal waiting to 11.37 am happen, his Government’s so-called register of lobbyists Moved by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town actually omits lobbying by in-house public affairs departments and it ignores lobbying of senior civil That this House takes note of the role that servants,Peers,MPs and even chairs of Select Committees charities, trade unions and civil society groupings completely. We will return to this tomorrow when we play in a democracy, including the provision of debate the lobbying Bill of my noble friend Lord advice and information to government, and of the Brooke of Alverthorpe. case for regulating lobbying activities, including The issue today is how to promote, encourage and those undertaken by business and private interests. enhance the ability of those without access to power, influence or big money to get their voice heard in our Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): My Lords, democracy. The Government do not seem to share I notice that after this debate there will be a “Statement that objective. Their lobbying and transparency Act on grammer schools”—spelt with an “er”. Oh, it has left the private sector well alone, even as it tied up been changed to an “ar”—congratulations. I wondered charities in red tape and served to chill their work. whether it referred to “crammer” schools. This was quite unnecessary, given that the combined 1135 Civil Society and Lobbying [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Civil Society and Lobbying 1136 thirdsectorcampaignspendin2015,atbelow£2million, within the political sphere, leading to the factory Acts, was under 5% of the parties’ spend and probably less the ending of child labour,free school meals, compulsory than the cost of recording and regulating it. education, old-age pensions and unadulterated food We will also hear shortly from the noble lord, Lord and drink. So it is with charities. They do not simply Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, whose own review of that relieve poverty, important though that is; they seek to Act concluded it did not have the right balance with prevent it and to give voice to the voiceless—be those regard to charities’ activities and had produced a children here or abroad, in war zones or in famine “chilling effect” on these. As if the Act had not clipped areas—drawing on their experience to relieve the causes charities’ wings enough, the Charity Commission then of poverty or distress. warned them off from becoming involved in the EU My noble friend Lord Judd, who is recovering from referendum. Even that was capped when the Cabinet surgery so cannot be with us today, has run or been Office proposed that any independent organisation in involved in a host of charities. That led him to become receipt of public money should not use it to inform or totally convinced of the role that civil society can, and advise Government or, indeed, even the European indeed must, play in a healthy democracy. That was Union. No academic would be able to give evidence to demonstrated to him particularly during the bitter a Select Committee. No safety charity would be able conflicts of Chechnya and the north Caucasus, when to work for better EU regulations. No adoption and he saw the Russians harassing and curbing the activities fostering charity would be able to advise the Government of NGOs.There is,says my noble friend, an overwhelming on better legislation or policy to achieve the Government’s responsibility for NGOs to be able to speak out with own aim of speeding up such processes. the “authority of engagement”. I could not put it As the animal welfare charities wrote to us, better. “We are closest to the issues. Every day, we see the impact of a Weneed the voice of charities and of their knowledge lack of education and of the mistreatment of animals. It is but also the voice of their beneficiaries. I hope the essential for the quality of public policy that, as the experts in our Government will take this need seriously.I beg to move. field, we can shine a spotlight on emerging issues that have not yet been picked up by policy makers. Evidence based on the frontline experience of charities such as ours is an absolutely indispensable 11.48 am part of effective policy development”. Historic England, the National Trust, Coram, which Lord Patten (Con): My Lords, I am right behind helps vulnerable children, Save the Children, which what the noble Baroness said about the importance of works in conflict zones, and charities demining in charities and I am right behind them—but no charity former war zones or preventing HIV/AIDS all have is beyond scrutiny. During 2016 so far there has been a expert advice to proffer but are threatened with silence growing chorus of concern about the lobbying activities by the Government. Sensibly, that particular nonsense and associated behaviour of one charity set up by has been set aside, but it is against a background of statute, the National Trust, and particularly the activities pressure on any charity with public funding to hold its and behaviour of those in the regions away from tongue, even when it seeks to further its objective and London, with some terrible publicity recently for a help beneficiaries. once universally revered outfit. Civil Exchange, in its review of the voluntary sector I am not clambering aboard any bandwagons here, in 2016, felt forced to title its report Independence in for in a short debate I sponsored in your Lordships’ Question after detailing numerous attacks on the ability House back on 12 November 2001 on the need to of independent organisations to speak out on behalf modernise the National Trust’s governing legislation, of beneficiaries—not only the no-advocacy clauses in many issues were raised concerning inadequate corporate grant agreements but a flagrant disregard of the compact governance, lack of transparency, lack of regional agreement signed with the voluntary sector, which representation in particular, and lack of regulation of promised to respect and uphold the independence of its activities. All that was missing then, from today’s civil society organisations to deliver their missions, cocktail of concerns, was growing concern about lobbying including their right to campaign regardless of any by the National Trust. financial relationship. When the Refugee Council faced The distinguished social theorist, the Anglican canon a no-advocacy clause in contracts, its CEO protested and the London solicitor who set up the National that it was, Trust in late Victorian England—and our predecessors “axiomatic … that any independent service provider should be in this and another place who passed the statute in free to speak out, without fear or favour”. Edwardian England—could not have foreseen what a The head of Nia, a charity working to counter landed leviathan the National Trust would become. violence against women, said: The National Trust, indeed, has accumulated holdings “Increasingly, state funding is driving us into a narrow service that no Whig magnate in our House in the 18th century delivery role … required to act as an arm of the state rather than could ever have dreamed of accumulating. It has more as an independent NGO”. than 600,000 acres of land, close to 600 miles of Indeed, some charities fear that mission is following coastline and about 250 monuments and buildings. money, rather than the other way round, while the Yet the National Trust is totally unregulated, except Government dictated that housing associations sell off by itself. Some people say that it is out of touch and some of their properties, regardless of the long-term increasingly remote. That, perhaps, is simply a function needs and underlying missions of those charities. of the scale and size of the National Trust. The value of trade unions from the 19th century I believe that the present scale and organisation of was not just in representing workers vis-à-vis employers the National Trust is inconsistent with the Government’s but in speaking up for workers and their families modernising agenda, which I strongly support, because 1137 Civil Society and Lobbying [LORDS] Civil Society and Lobbying 1138

[LORD PATTEN] chairman of such an independent commission into devolution and accountability are increasingly part the National Trust. It would look at the trust to make not just of regional rhetoric but of regional reality. Yet quite sure that indeed acts in the national interest, in 2016 the National Trust has set off on a totally new cleaving to its statutory and charitable origins. course with its additional lobbying activity, producing a new and positive blizzard of lobbying and a maelstrom of demands and advice, in relation to—just listen to 11.56 am the litany—global climate change policy, fracking, Baroness Jowell (Lab): My Lords, I congratulate wind farms, and then, as if it was Defra, proposing a my noble friend Lady Hayter on bringing forward this six-point national agricultural policy for post-Brexit debate. I begin my brief contribution by underlining rural times, with farmers, of course, to be denied subsidy the importance of her tribute to Lord Rix who, in his or support unless they pursue particular environmental work as chairman of Mencap, inspired by his own agendas. These environmental agendas may not be daughter’s learning difficulties, is perhaps a shining wrong but the suggestion is certainly extraordinary. example of the constructive and enduring purpose of At the same time, and in lock-step with a change of charities. Had Mencap under his leadership not shone focus into becoming this new lobbying organisation, a bright light on the circumstances of children with the National Trust seems to have developed a new line learning difficulties, who were often living with abuse in what can only be called autocratic and out-of-touch and neglect in long-term institutions for people who behaviour, whether towards farmers or cricketers. We were then described as having mental handicaps, we just heard about cricketers and warm beer from the would not have seen the accelerated rate of change noble Baroness on the Front Bench. Just listen to what that we now take for granted. Nobody now talks we have seen in the last four weeks. As far as farmers about the best care being provided in large institutions, are concerned, there was the gazumping of local farmers either for people with long-term disability or people in the Lake District, who were all at an auction to bid suffering the effects of long-term mental illness. That for a very delicate, upland hill farm area where they is one example of the extraordinary power of charity, have long been active as the last, rather fragile link independent of government and with a loud voice to with our traditional farming heritage, and very welcome bring about change for the better. low-cost custodians of our man-made landscapes. Up The importance of this debate is that the constituents pops some agent of the National Trust, bidding hundreds of civil society, which my noble friend so clearly of thousands of pounds more than any chartered described, are the fabric of the society in which we surveyor would suggest the land was worth as farmland, live. This central question has been unsatisfactorily with all the casual insouciance of someone waving the answered by the lobbying Act, and to some extent by cheque-book of a land-accumulating Ukrainian oligarch. the now-forgotten initiative of the big society. The Let us turn to cricket and football and the National balance is wrong between respect and self-confidence Trust’s attitude to these activities. Just yesterday, as in government and the extraordinary contribution reported in the Times—and therefore it must be true—the that charities can make. Perhaps I should have said at National Trust is evicting the local football and cricket the beginning that I have declared interests in many teams from pitches in the park of Shugborough Hall charities with which I have an association. I was for in Staffordshire.They have been there for decades—almost many years assistant director of Mind; I will come time out of mind: father to son, and, I dare say, back to that in a moment. mother to daughter—playing football and cricket and How do we get that balance right between civil occupying just 1% of the 900 acres of the Shugborough society and the publicly accountable responsibility of estate.This was because,as a National Trust representative government? Nobody has put it better than a Gamesmaker was quoted in the Times as saying: who I talked to four years ago during our Olympic “Football and cricket really are non-traditional activities”. Games. She was travelling every day for two hours to You could not make it up. Generations ago the aristocrats get to the Olympic park and two hours home in the used to encourage people to play cricket and football small hours of the morning, only to come back again there. I suppose that was noblesse oblige, which is not the next day. It was a truly punishing schedule and I always to be sneered at—whereas the new autocrats of asked her why she was doing it. She said, “Because it the National Trust want to turf them out. Again, you makes me feel I matter. I have a place here, and I have could not make it up. a contribution to make. To be part of this is something The trust needs to be better regulated. It was set up I will remember for the rest of my life”. She said, “I by statute for the benefit of the whole nation and its really want people like you to understand that it is citizens, not just for the executive and paid-up members important to know how much more people are willing of the National Trust. There needs to be someone to to give if they are not doing so only because government whom complaints can be made, whether by an aggrieved tells them that they should”. tenant farmer or a member of the general public such In a way, that was the crudeness of the big society as me or anybody else who just happens not to be a initiative, whose failure can be explained through member of the trust. After that there is an urgent need the clumsiness of that intervention. People, charities for a full review, best set up by the National Trust and local community organisations felt that somehow itself, into its own governance since 1907. It has grown the Government were on their back. Suddenly, the and grown in a way that is not its fault or that it could supportive relationship between local authorities and ever have predicted. I urge it to do this. The noble Lord, local community organisations had been weakened Lord Bragg—I apologise for not having suggested this because charities cannot replace the proper responsibilities to him in advance—would make a splendid independent of an elected Government. That is why it is right to 1139 Civil Society and Lobbying [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Civil Society and Lobbying 1140 have misgivings about voluntary organisations running The debate throughout all this is about whether custodial institutions and taking on the proper trust and confidence can be rebuilt through creating responsibilities of the state. new legal and regulatory frameworks or whether it is This takes us to the relationship between civil society through the actions of the organisations themselves, and the state at a time when the state is shrinking—the especially in changing cultures where bad practices critical recognition of a self-confident Government. I have crept in. Of course, the fact is that you have to have been on the receiving end of disobliging lobbying have both. My view is that self-regulation should be as a Minister, and it is at times a nuisance. You wish the preferred option, but always with a robust and they would get off your back, but you have to remember powerful regulatory regime as a backstop—the last that in the end you are going to produce better results. resort rather than the first. I worry that a Government The critical balance is to allow charities the freedom sometimes make problems look far more widespread to give voice to what they learn through experience and serious than they actually are by proposing draconian and to do things in ways that are different from the regulatory measures. A macho style of government way in which fully publicly funded and provided services has become all too common. are delivered. It is almost certainly a forlorn hope, but in this, as In his great book The Gift Relationship Richard in other areas, sometimes it is best to make haste Titmuss reminded us about the way we as a society are slowly, not in a spirit of pushing reform into the long bound by reliance on blood donation. It is time to grass but because hasty, ill-informed change simply modernise the nature of the gift relationship. The new stacks up problems for the future which then require gift relationship is the gift of time, but the gift of time further intervention to put right. All Governments is properly delivered and valued where the relationship have a tendency to overlegislate, but using new laws between government and voluntary and community as a substitute for good management, high-quality organisations is properly worked out in a respectful dialogue and thoughtful policy-making simply causes way that celebrates innovation, is prepared to recognise trouble. the risks that many charities face, does not burden In the 25 years since I became involved in local them with crushing bureaucracy and enables their government, I have increasingly seen in the public independence and freedom. sector organisations and individuals who are fearful of Finally, last night I was talking to some young men doing anything new or innovative and who spend from my former constituency who run the Brixton increasing amounts of time and money on process and soup kitchen. It is a wonderful local organisation run measurement rather than actions. It is not surprising essentially on their largely unpaid efforts. I asked what that they have become risk averse because, unlike in they would say if they were making a speech about the private sector, in the public sector the incentives this today. One of the young men said, “I think that are all for caution. people like you ought to talk more in ways that people I would hate the Government to push the charity like us understand”. There is still a yawning gap, but sector down that same route. Its very strength is its the pluralism in our society is the essence of what independence, flexibility and ability to innovate. The defines our shared humanity. public are very clear about what they want. The same report from the Charity Commission tells us that two-thirds of the public say that charities are spending 12.04 pm too much on administration. The irony is that measures Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD): My Lords, to improve trust could actually make it worse if the the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, has done the House administrative and regulatory burden keeps increasing. a great service by tabling this debate. I shall confine The changing role of the charity and voluntary my remarks to the charity sector and place on record sector and the growth in the social enterprise sector how much I am looking forward to the work of the have blurred what were clear distinctions in years gone Select Committee which has been established to look by. As more public services are contracted out to the at a range of issues affecting the sector. I declare an sector, and as the advocacy role becomes more crucial, interest as a trustee of the Industry and Parliament the relationship between central government and the Trust and as a member of the NCVO advisory council. sector becomes much more multilayered and highly Over the last 20 years or so, every set of institutions complex. in this country has come under serious question: the The 2014 Act has highlighted some of the dilemmas police after Stephen Lawrence and Hillsborough; the involved in the Government’s relationship with the Government and intelligence services after Iraq; press charity sector and exemplified some rather poor process abuses through Leveson; and Parliament itself after by government. I speak as someone who has some cash for questions and the expenses scandals. sympathy with the underlying objectives of that law: For charities, more recent concerns about fundraising namely, that voters should be clear about who is methods and the questionable governance highlighted seeking to influence their choice at election times. This by Kids Company and others might not be in the same is particularly important when it comes to campaigning league, but they have clearly had an impact on public in individual seats, where targeting national resources trust. The most recent figures from the Charity on small geographic areas can have a significant impact. Commission show a fall, from 6.7 out of 10 people in At the same time, charities must be allowed to advocate, 2014 to 5.7 this year. For organisations dependent on inform and question throughout the electoral process, public good will for their prosperity and survival, this as they do at other times. I am very struck by the is worrying. briefings I have received in which there is a clear 1141 Civil Society and Lobbying [LORDS] Civil Society and Lobbying 1142

[BARONESS SCOTT OF NEEDHAM MARKET] the volunteer director-general of the country’s St John divergence of view between the sector and the regulators Ambulance Association in the 1980s—I am delighted about how clear the guidance is and how the law is to to see my colleague from those days, the noble Baroness, be enforced. This is clearly not satisfactory. Lady Emerton, here in the Chamber. That charity had Most particularly,we need clearer differences between grown from the requirements of communities to respond the routine advocacy of particular organisations and to the accidents which happened in mines, on the the intention of influencing electoral outcomes. In railways, in road construction and later in the electrical his excellent review, the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, and gas industries. highlighted this point—and he was right to do so. From their beginnings, these charities were run and Governments must be aware that in this area, as in manned by volunteers, and over the ensuing century others, charities are simply not going to run the risk of this became an important part of their ethos. Then being non-compliant and therefore the so-called “chilling things started to change, perhaps about 30 years ago. effect” on their activities in the run-up to an election is Many large charities started to so-called professionalise a real danger.Perversely,a measure aimed at transparency themselves, paying larger and larger salaries to ever- can end up as a gag. growing numbers of employees. Volunteers started The aspects relating to electoral law with regard to gradually to find that their role was now to raise how one defines a member of the public highlight the money to pay for these employees rather than to do perennial problem of how we keep regulation up to much of the work themselves. Of course, it is true that date. As the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, points out, fewer volunteers were probably available at that time, the practical realities of how you differentiate between as charities had relied heavily on women and retired activities aimed at the public and those aimed at men for their voluntary workforce. As more women, committed supporters and members are very difficult properly, sought employment of their own, careers in the social media age. imposed more onerous obligations and many more leisure The Act also demonstrates the other hardy perennial: activities became available and part of life, voluntary work regulatory overkill. By creating a 12-month regulated became less attractive. period, the Government have effectively neutered charities’ Then Governments of all shades began to see that campaigning activities for one-fifth of the time and they could outsource the tackling of social problems have added significantly to the costs of compliance. I to charities by paying them large grants to do the wonder, in parentheses, how we would manage should work. This has, on the whole, been a successful strategy, we move away from fixed-term Parliaments. although some problems have arisen from it. First, In a similar vein, the so-called “anti-lobbying clause” some charities have distorted their founders’missions—a that was proposed and then withdrawn was a classic point the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, made—in example of legislation being inappropriately created order to qualify for government funding and to follow, by government. It really was a sledgehammer to crack dare I say it, the latest ministerial obsession, however a nut, with no real underpinning evidence of the well intentioned. Others have been obliged to put all problem it was designed to solve. But the difficulty is their eggs into the Government’s basket, with the that, despite its withdrawal, it has caused a lot of bad danger that, if policies change, they can be left high feeling and mistrust, and has further undermined and dry. what ought to be the proper, constructive relationship Sometimes there has been an acute failure of financial between the charity sector and government. However, supervision. We have recently had the debacle of Kids even more worryingly, and coming back to the point Company; a charismatic figurehead assumed almost of public trust, it helps to set the tone that somehow total control, and public funds went unaccounted for. the sector is beset with problems which can be managed Also, government funding for charities is not always only when the Government intervene. That is smooth. I have come across many instances of grants fundamentally wrong. being confirmed for renewal only after the beginning We are in for difficult times. Recent events have of the financial year,sometimes many months afterwards, highlighted some very real divisions in our country, with the result that employees have had to be made which need addressing and which will take a lot of redundant and have acquired new jobs elsewhere, to healing. The charity sector is probably better placed the detriment of the continuity of the project. than any other to do this, given the centrality of its In recent years, however, there has been a welcome role in all aspects of our lives. Government needs to return to voluntary activity, as people realise that they work with the sector and not against it. can make a difference by doing it and at the same time gain much personal fulfilment. Labour’s Millennium 12.11 pm Volunteers and the coalition’s big society, although Lord Lingfield (Con): My Lords, I too thank the neither project was particularly successful, helped raise noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, for awareness that our society has an urgent need of this important debate, and drawyour Lordships’attention voluntary work to supplement the state’s provision in to my charitable interests in the register. many areas, particularly healthcare. The noble Baroness pointed out to us that this Every year for the past 16 years I have had the honour country has always had an enviable history of charitable of giving awards at the Mansion House to distinguished activity. Many of the charities extant today have their volunteers, all of whom have given up their time for roots in the 19th century’s epoch of social reform, and decades to serve their communities without payment. some in that era were the response to specific changes They work all over the United Kingdom, in hospices, in work or living patterns. I had the privilege of being hospitals, health centres, servicemen’s charities, homes 1143 Civil Society and Lobbying [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Civil Society and Lobbying 1144 for the elderly, and in many other locations, where a position of dependency. Sometimes, of course, such their efforts are valuable and hugely appreciated. It is activity is necessary. People who are on the bread line iniquitous that a greater part of the twice-yearly honours and whose mere existence is under threat need that list is not devoted to recognising voluntary work of help, even if they risk becoming dependent on it this kind. I trust that the various honours committees but, on the whole, I look for activity in the field of will bear this in mind. The wonderful work of the charity that introduces the notion of capacity-building, Olympic committees has been mentioned, but I very autonomy, an ability to take charge of one’s own life much hope that we will not see too many Olympic and building those qualities in those on the receiving athletes adding to their already considerable laurels end, as it were. membership of the Order of the British Empire while Charities ought always in this respect to be free hundreds of deserving volunteers have a lifetime’s enough to be innovative. The state—even with the work left without a sign of the gratitude of the state. finest legislation passed through bodies such as this As speakers have pointed out, charities are big House—cannot always create the conditions that would business now, but I believe that government departments impose the right pattern across society, which everyone should insist that charities that receive grants from can then enjoy. In the charitable sector, if there is real public funds should have a good mix of paid and freedom to act, some quite startling things can happen, voluntary personnel. We are all living longer and which then become models from which those who longer. We shall need once again to encourage that provide at a higher level can learn. charitable impulse for voluntary work in our communities Many Members of this House will remember the to look after each other rather more than we do at the redoubtable figure of Lord Soper.I inherited responsibility moment. for a lot of his social work for a number of years and Charitable work, especially that which is voluntary, have enjoyed after-dinner speaking on the basis of it is greatly enriching for those who engage in it as well ever since. I remember my work in a day centre in west as being immensely beneficial to those served by it. I London—open 365 days a year and becoming increasingly very much hope that the Government will consider professionalised in line with modern fashion, as the commissioning a review to look at their relationships noble Lord, Lord Lingfield, said. It provided a range with charities, especially at those points which previous of services to homeless people, usually street homeless speakers have made this morning, and how best charities people, who had nowhere else to go—always over can be helped to continue to serve our society in the 25 year-olds. Youth work is much easier to fund, I can coming decades. assure noble Lords, than old lads, as these were. Incidentally, is it not a shame that the work that was 12.18 pm done by the previous Government—by Members on Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab): My Lords, I add this side of the House through the rough sleepers my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for initiative—to provide for the needs of the street homeless bringing this field of endeavour and experience to the is being unpicked? We now see more and more evidence Floor of the House so that we can enjoy a discussion of street homelessness occurring than in our day, of its various facets and perhaps focus our thinking when we really did think that a solution had been about the way we would like things to go in the future. found. In the years that I have been a Member of your At the day centre, there was one strand missing. We Lordships’ House, I have been only too aware of how deloused, we fed, we provided advice, housing and all poorly I have served the work of this place. the rest of it—I could give so many stories of incidents and people from those days—but one thing was missing: a psychiatric social worker to help us with the mental A Noble Lord: Not at all. problems of so many people living at their wits’ end and on the streets. Eventually, we found the money for Lord Griffiths of Burry Port: Thank you. My noble that role. My instruction to this long-sought member friend is most generous. This is largely because, having of our personnel was very clear: “However long the a day job—largely in the voluntary sector, related to so queue of people wanting your services, you will give many people involved in charitable work—my field of only 80% of your time to the face-to-face,problem-solving, activity lies there, and I am in no doubt about that. It advice-giving aspect of your work. The rest of your is, however, a joy to come here when I do, especially on work will be concerned with accumulating notes of an occasion such as this. the kinds of conditions that you are discovering and Perhaps I may take up a point that the noble Lord, statistics about the nature of the problems you are Lord Lingfield, made a moment ago. He correctly said encountering”. I said to her that people like me would that work in the charitable sector and in civil society need that evidence as the basis upon which we made often supplements what is done by the state. In an age representations to public bodies and to the Government of austerity and cutbacks, I fear that it is too often —it was essential that we did that work and it was becoming a substitute for what ought to be done by integral to her work. I believed that then and I believe the state. The assumption that civil society and the that now. voluntary sector can absorb the outcomes of government It is so important to give charities the freedom to policy needs to be checked and tested. innovate, to learn and to accumulate experience on the I approach the whole question of charity with very basis of which a view can be brought to Governments— mixed feelings. I am only too aware of how it excites a which are often more than one stage removed from the response on the part of those inclined to be charitable experience of these things—in order that we may form that, if we are not careful, simply maintains people in an opinion, frame legislation and take the whole thing 1145 Civil Society and Lobbying [LORDS] Civil Society and Lobbying 1146

[LORD GRIFFITHS OF BURRY PORT] by charities in particular, because it would be aligned forward in a constructive way. I have lots of other with what their status as charities allows them to do experience of institutions where, because they took anyway. government money, they found themselves constricted Secondly, the review recommends that the electoral by government pressure to do their work the Government’s period for regulation should be reduced from one year way. I regret that, and I want to make a general point to four months—the same as for European and devolved at the early stage of this debate. I plead with the legislatures. All the evidence submitted shows that Minister—or with whoever is summing up—to give us third parties focus on elections at the most six months an assurance that the proper freedoms for charitable before the date. Torequire them to delineate expenditure bodies will always be respected so that innovation, the relating to the election from normal expenditure a accumulation of experience and evidence and a valid whole year before is an unnecessary,bureaucratic burden. point of view put to those responsible for shaping our national life can always be made on the basis of facts A third area of concern is how expenditure for joint that can be proven. campaigning should be allocated. It is good practice for charities to work together when appropriate and My notes would allow me to speak for another possible, but Part 2 of the lobbying Act in effect three and a half hours but, at this point, I forbear. frustrated this purpose.The Hodgson review recommends important changes in this area. 12.25 pm Those are just a few of a number of important Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB): My Lords, I am recommendations. My first question to the Minister grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish is: when is the Hodgson review to be brought before Town, for initiating this debate. As she emphasised, the House? When would she see these vital changes, if charities and campaigning groups of various kinds agreed, being made to Part 2 of the lobbying Act? It is play a vital role in our society. The health of our deeply flawed and needs to be amended in order to democracy depends not just on political parties but on ensure that third-party groups can play their proper organisations which are rooted in the varied experiences role without the undue chilling effect that the Act, as it of people’s lives being able to bring different viewpoints now stands, has had. to bear, not least at election time. My other main concern is the anti-advocacy policy It is absolutely right that all such groups should brought in and announced by the Government in be regulated and that they should be required to be February. The Government’s stated intention was to transparent in what they do. At election time it is prevent funds paid to charities by government being again right that they should not be able to spend used to fund lobbying. As has already been mentioned money disproportionately compared to political parties by a number of noble Lords, this has aroused widespread and candidates. However, Part 2 of the Transparency disquiet. The fact is that charities are regularly called of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union upon by officials within departments to bring real-world Administration Act 2014 was itself disproportionate experience of users and evidence-based expertise into in the way in which it sought to limit third-party public policy, and to engage with parliamentarians on campaigning at election time. It was hastily put together these issues; for example, through providing evidence without consultation, driven by a fear of American-style to Select Committees. political action committees coming to this country—a Clear guidance already exists about what charities fear without serious foundation. The evidence of third- can and cannot campaign and advocate on. However, party groups was, and is now, that it would, and does, it is critical that charities are able to speak up on seriously inhibit their legitimate activity. behalf of their beneficiaries and are seen to be independent The House was, thank goodness, able to achieve from government regardless of their financial some little improvements in this lamentable piece of arrangements. Charities are concerned that this clause legislation, one being that there should be a review of could be perceived as limiting what they can and how it worked at the last election. That review, under cannot say about important issues for fear that this the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson will have an impact on their funding. Therefore, my of Astley Abbotts, has now taken place and the report second question to the Minister concerns this proposed published. We are very grateful to him for it. It bears policy—if it is still in place, as there seems to be a great out many of the criticisms made in this House during deal of confusion about whether this proposal will be the passage of the Bill and urges some significant changes. enacted. Perhaps the Minister will clarify that. Does Many of these were argued for by the Commission on she not fundamentally agree—as put so powerfully by Civil Society and Democratic Engagement, which I have the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port—that the privilege of chairing. charities that are in the front line of trying to respond Iwillbrieflysummarisesomeof theserecommendations. to human need are best placed to bring before government First, instead of the phrase, the way in which policies can help or hinder the “can reasonably be regarded as intended to promote electoral meeting of that need, and that bringing this experience success” and expertise to bear on government thinking is therefore for any party or candidate—which was thought to be vital and should not be inhibited in any way? too wide and uncertain—the Hodgson review I was very surprised by the bitter criticism of the recommends that this should be changed to one of National Trust expressed by the noble Lord, Lord actual intention to procure success in an election, Patten. As a member of the National Trust—one of along the lines of the Representation of the People its, I believe, 4 million members, the biggest mass Act 1983. I believe that this change would be welcomed organisation in the country—I am deeply grateful to it 1147 Civil Society and Lobbying [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Civil Society and Lobbying 1148 every time I walk a nice piece of coastal path that it access to records were created as and when the need has acquired. The noble Lord particularly supports arose. However, in debate on that Bill, we hear quite farmers who want to continue to graze sheep on the clearly the voices of civil society, reaching a balance uplands. However, his policy is strongly opposed by between the commercial interests of the communications people with such disparate views as those of George business, the concerns of our national security and Monbiot on the one hand and Sir Simon Jenkins on our right to privacy. Without the voices of civil society, the other, who argue that most of the problems of charities and trade unions, I doubt whether a satisfactory flooding in the Lake District are caused by overgrazing balance would be achieved on the Bill. of sheep in the uplands, and that if it is rewilded, as it More technology is on the way which will require is called, the water will be able to seep into the ground this kind of balance. Let us take, for instance, the and the problem of flooding will be greatly alleviated. changing world of work. Several million people are It is absolutely right that an organisation such as the now working off digital platforms. It suits the operators National Trust should make that view known and, in to say that these people are self-employed so that the so far as it is able to implement it on its own property, minimum wage, holiday pay, sick pay, maternity pay, that it should be able to do so. Of course, there is the training, safety, pensions and tax are nothing to do point of view of farmers and others but it is right that with them. It is left to the state to pick up these costs the National Trust should also be able to express its through welfare payments and tax credits. I am sure important point of view gained from its own experience. lobbyists for platform operators and internet service However, my main point is that campaigning groups providers put a very good case to the Government for and charities play an essential role in making our their own commercial objectives. But what about fairness democracy vibrant and living and their ability to do and costs to the public? Trade unions, civil society this should not be inhibited in any way. and charities—yes, sometimes even funded by the Government—are the ones speaking up for these things, 12.32 pm and fairly soon some sort of balance will have to be Lord Haskel (Lab): My Lords, as I understand it, agreed. Digital platforms themselves could be required the Government have put on hold the rules regarding to ensure that users comply with current regulations, the lobbying activities of organisations that receive and workers could belong to some kind of trade union taxpayers’ money. They are right to do so because co-operative. Then neither workers nor users would be their thinking is very confused. vulnerable to exploitation. It is not anti-government to seek the best welfare In many other areas of new technology, charities for our fellow citizens. It is not anti-government to are in the front line to achieve balance. We hope that seek the highest standards of health and safety. It is some of our more serious medical problems will be not anti-government to seek the highest standards of eliminated by genome editing. For some, altering our truth and accuracy in reporting the news. It is not chromosomes and genes can be a terrifying prospect. anti-government to have a say in genetic manipulation. It is contrary to the faith of others. Yet it holds out the I say to the noble Lord, Lord Patten, who is not in his prospect of quick and relatively cheap medical miracles. place, that it is not anti-government to seek higher Unless charities and civil society set about explaining standards of conservation. These are some of the these issues through some sort of public understanding voices to which my noble friend Lady Hayter referred—the campaign, to encourage sympathetic public opinion, real-world experiences, as the noble and right reverend the benefits of this wonderful medical research will Lord, Lord Harries, put it—voices which tell us where take a long time to be accepted, if ever. I hope the government policy is failing and where our priorities Government are lobbying the charities and giving should lie. These voices want a say in shaping society, them donations to help with this work, for the sake of not by revolution or violence but by balance—the the nation’s health. kind of balance about which my noble friend Lady Lots more things are coming down the line where a Jowell spoke. These voices need to be heard. They are balance will have to be achieved between commercial not voices that the Government should seek to silence interests, security and the public good: the internet of because they are funded by the taxpayer. It will not things and digital money, to name but two. My noble have escaped the Minister’s notice that the very reason friend Lady Hayter is absolutely right to move this these organisations are sometimes funded by the debate and I congratulate her. Uncertainty on how to Government is that both seek the same ends. But respond to the changes brought about by new technologies democracy and the welfare of society are the not the will lead to inaction and lost opportunity unless the only reasons why the Government should listen to input from society brings about acceptance and trade unions,charities and civil society.These organisations understanding, through balance and fairness. are also the voices of progress—social, scientific, medical For the sake of progress and the public good, the and commercial—based on experience, as my noble Government should listen to all these voices equally friend Lord Griffiths put it. and not give disproportionate influence to company We are debating the Investigatory Powers Bill at the voices, nor quieten the voices of tax-supported charities. moment. Technology has given us new ways of We need them all equally to better inform our decisions. communicating—ways that make our lives easier, our communications quicker, more social and more fun. 12.40 pm But these ways are also available to criminals and terrorists. This Bill will clarify to what extent our Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con): My Lords, I communications can be intercepted and recorded by begin by thanking the noble Baroness for having given the authorities. Previously, powers of interference and us the chance to debate this important topic. As some 1149 Civil Society and Lobbying [LORDS] Civil Society and Lobbying 1150

[LORD HODGSON OF ASTLEY ABBOTTS] ahead of the date of the election. Therefore, I feel that Members of your Lordships’ House will know, I have we can safely reduce the regulated period and thus the prepared a number of reviews of the sector. The work associated paperwork to the four-month period, as that I have done and the people I have met lead me to was mentioned by the noble and right reverend Lord, associate myself entirely with the noble Baroness’s Lord Harries. remarks about the contribution that the charitable The second issue is: what constitutes a member of and voluntary sector has made to our society, especially an organisation and therefore someone who can be as regards social cohesion. approached without falling to be included in the cost However, there is an important cautionary word, of any lobbying activity? Historically, membership which was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of has been pretty easily defined—you fill in a form or Needham Market, who is not in her place, and it is you send in a cheque, a postal order or some money. that charitable status is not of itself a guarantee of But nowadays, with social media, these certainties good behaviour. I fear that there have been too many have been blown away. A tick in a box or an email sent cases where governance, procedures and approach to hundreds of thousands of people at very low cost have fallen short. No matter that the vast and can make you a member. It will be only a matter of overwhelming majority of charities are doing the splendid time before the concept of a negative pledge is used—that job to which the noble Baroness referred; the sector is, if you do not tick the box, you will be considered a needs to remember that its reputation with the public member. is as good as the weakest link in the chain. I am In my view, this potentially offers a serious loophole confident that the committee of the noble Baroness, to the whole practice and risks undermining the lobbying Lady Pitkeathley, will investigate that, to find ways of activity in a very important way. So I have proposed making sure that the good stories are not driven out the concept of a constitutional member who can influence entirely by the bad. the organisation of which they are a member, and I I turn to my review of Part 2 of the transparency of have laid out a number of tests that should be followed lobbying Act. I am encouraged by the fact that a to ensure that that is being met. number of speakers so far have seemed to agree with However, as other noble Lords have said, third-party my conclusion that we should aim for the maximum campaigning does not itself lead to neat definitions transparency on the issue of how and by whom the and packages. The continuing rapid rate of change in general public are influenced at the time of a general social media means that there will be a continuing election. That must surely be the only way to maintain impact on the way that third-party campaigning practices public trust and confidence in our electoral system. take place. For example, I had an analysis carried out Elections must not be capable of being bought by of the use of Twitter in the Bradford West constituency third parties of whatever colour or persuasion operating at the last general election. It was a particularly vicious behind a green baize door. At the same time, we need and fiercely fought campaign. Of the 35,000 Twitter to make sure that the system does not constrain vigorous users who referred to candidates in Bradford West, public debate, and that is the difficult balance that we only 330—fewer than 1%—marked Bradford as their have to strike. home address, compared to 12,000, or about one-third, who marked London and 506 who marked Pakistan. Within the 100 pages of the review—I take this So I believe that, increasingly, campaigning will no opportunity to thank everybody in the country who longer respect national boundaries, and this will represent contributed by attending meetings and sending in a challenge to us all. evidence to the debate; I also thank the Cabinet Office In March this year, I presented my review to the team led by Cathryn Hannah and David Rowland, then Minister, John Penrose MP.The broad conclusions who helped prepare the report—there are perhaps two and approach were, I think, welcomed by the sector really critical matters. The first is: what needs to be and by the Government—if I judge ministerial responses regulated? I defined that as electoral campaigning— at Question Time right. But so far there has been no that is, official response, and I am asked frequently by those “activity focused on influencing the choice of the voting public at who helped me with the review what happens next. We an election”. appear to be in a good place. The sector appears I do not think that that regulation should cover advocacy reasonably happy and the Government seem reasonably of an issue that an organisation may carry out on a happy. I hope that they will not allow the good will day-to-day basis—what I describe in the review as that they have rightly earned to be dissipated by undue “business as usual”. Nor should it cover political delay. campaigning which third parties carry out in talking I hope that my noble friend will enlighten the directly to government, Members of your Lordships’ House on progress during her closing remarks. If she House or Members of the other place. Frankly, if we is not able to do so, I fear that I may have to intervene and Members of the other place cannot “aim off” to to press her a little harder. take account of the blandishments of such people, we are less good than I think we should be. 12.47 pm If that broad approach is accepted—of course, Baroness Rebuck (Lab): I think that most noble these are not absolutely discrete silos; one washes into Lords would agree that there was much fiction among another—one can safely recommend a shortening of the arguments put during the recent Brexit campaign. the regulated period. In my view, the general public in Obviously I am not going to defend the fictitious the saloon bar of the Dog and Duck become aware of slogans on campaign buses, one of which stated that an impending general election only about four months Brexit would provide an extra £350 million a week for 1151 Civil Society and Lobbying [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Civil Society and Lobbying 1152 the NHS, but I am going to stand up for fiction in this If we want to compete in the digital world and the debate, the importance of 100% literacy and reading knowledge economy we need to lead in literacy, not for pleasure as an essential ingredient in our democracy, trail in it. It makes economic sense as 100% literacy for and the role played by charities and trade unions in all adults would boost our economy by some £80 million achieving this. I declare an interest as a book publisher a year. Sadly, however, many employers still say that and from a lifetime’s engagement with most of our they cannot find enough skilled employees. So this literacy charities. does not mean just focusing on raising the numbers achieving entry-level skills but on improving the The benefits of fiction have been known for some performance at the very top. Only a quarter of UK time. It is associated with high levels of empathy and graduates have top-level reading and writing skills improved relationships with others. Reading for pleasure compared with at least a third of those in other has been linked to a reduction in the development of developed nations. dementia in later life and to helping alleviate depression. Almost twice as many people who have low levels of Alongside literacy charities, trade unions are also literacy also suffer from depression. The journal Social playing a significant role in helping to meet the skills Science & Medicine recently reported that cognitive gap and increasing social mobility. It is 10 years this engagement, or deep reading, regenerates the brain, year since Unionlearn was established. During that and that people who read an average of half an hour a time, 35,000 trade union learning reps across the country day—I include in this, I hope, all noble Lords—may have helped more than a quarter of a million people well live, on average, two years longer than non-readers. improve their functional skills in English and maths. Often training is peer-to-peer,with dinner ladies teaching Studies have shown that visits to libraries improve other dinner ladies, train drivers teaching other train general health, saving the NHS some £27.5 million a drivers and prison officers teaching other prison officers year in England in reduced GP visits. Perhaps we and prisoners, too, 60% of whom, let us remember, should put this figure on the side of buses. Perhaps we have very poor literacy. should also put it on the side of mobile libraries and even ambulances, to recognise the value of reading to On the literacy charities themselves, we must embrace our health. Sadly, however, our libraries themselves and value the work of all of them and government have not been in good health; many have died, and the should draw on their expertise and innovation. The epidemic continues. We have seen more than one library National Literacy Trust has established ground-breaking a week close across England since austerity measures hubs to target interventions where they are most needed were introduced, and Lancashire just announced that and partnerships with tailored approaches to meet it is about to close 29 of its libraries. We must urgently local literacy needs. For example, three years ago five bring the library network into remission. year-olds starting school in Middlesbrough were 23% below the national average in school readiness. Of course, the real patient is our democracy. There The local hub has transformed this to a gap of just has been much analysis of the referendum result but 6% today. In Bradford, over half of its eight to 16 year- perhaps we can agree on one thing: too many in our olds are encouraged to write something daily which is society feel disconnected, disempowered and are not for school. They are now almost 10% above the disengaged from politics, particularly the young. The national average, with a transformed attitude to writing. Prime Minister alluded to this in her first speech in Downing Street when she said that her Government The Reading Agency—an independent charity,where would be not only for the privileged few but for every I declare a particular interest in the Quick Reads one of us, and she gave a list of “burning injustices”. If initiative—each year commissions major authors to she is to live up to these words, the Government write short books that are specifically designed to should focus on the lack of literacy, which is at the engage emergent readers with an average reading age heart of so many of these injustices. Around 9 million of nine years old. Since 2006, 7.5 million books have people of working age in England have low basic found their way to emergent readers, including outreach skills. The proportion of 16 to 19 year-olds who have work via hospitals, prisons, community centres, factories, low literacy is the highest of the 23 countries in the army bases, libraries and adult education centres. OECD’s 2012 survey. We are the only developed nation For many of our most disadvantaged citizens, Quick where our young people significantly underperform Reads has been a lifeline, inspiring confidence in more their elders. than 90% of emergent readers and encouraging more I hope the Government agree that reversing this than 55% to be confident enough to address further trend would help give people more control over their learning needs.In Camden in north London, for example, lives and that in “making literacy and numeracy a Quick Reads was used in a pilot scheme with white fundamental right of all adults” we should begin by working-class mothers in a book group to address harnessing all the innovation in the charity sector. One their sons’underachievement at school, another injustice person in six in the UK lives with poor literacy, as I highlighted by our new Prime Minister. The mothers have said. As a child they will not succeed at school; as sped through their first books and quickly became a young adult they will be locked out of the job avid readers,taking an interest in their children’seducation, market; and on becoming a parent they will not be often for the first time, with a marked improvement in able to support their child’s learning, leading to a cycle attendance, confidence and school results. of deprivation over generations. Lacking these vital My last example comes from the Learning and skills undermines people’s well-being and stops them Work Institute’s groundbreaking Citizen’s Curriculum, making a full contribution to the economic and cultural which teaches the core capabilities needed for life and life of our nation, and it harms our democracy. work in the 21st century. As a result of this training 1153 Civil Society and Lobbying [LORDS] Civil Society and Lobbying 1154

[BARONESS REBUCK] of years ago, I set up a commission for the city, and in scheme, Rochdale council has found increased take-up eight public meetings hundreds of people came to of public health services, such as drug and alcohol look at education, unemployment, policing and various support, and a 14% decrease in call-outs to police. The things. From that has come all kinds of on-going latest pilots suggest that public services overall save work, where people got engaged in our city about £3 for every pound invested. This, I argue, is a model what citizens, charities, the local authority and others for civic engagement. My point is that charities are the can do in these areas to better improve the quality of seed beds of innovation in our fight against illiteracy life. There were no smart answers; there was an invitation and inequality of opportunity and while the Government to engage in a process of asking the questions and have assisted literacy charities with funding in the exploring options and partial solutions. With MPs in past, over the last five years that funding has been our county, I regularly organise summits on things like dropping. Surely it is in all of our interests for these immigration, refugees and slavery and invite citizens charities to be well funded. The private sector plays its to come, from all kinds of persuasions, and look at the part but private money can often be withdrawn, leaving options and not just the answers. important initiatives in limbo. As my noble friend Some of your Lordships may think that, of course, Lord Griffiths has already so eloquently argued, we I stand for a Church that is always criticised for not also need to ensure that the best and most effective having any answers on anything at all and is always charity pilot schemes are adopted and scaled up by prevaricating on the big questions. But if you are to be government in a move to achieve a once in a lifetime a broad church, which a democracy needs to value, goal—100% literacy.This is my plea to the Government. you have to take seriously a variety of experiences and I have one final point. Literacy charities may help aspirations, and create a space for them to feel that many of those without a voice to gain one through they have been taken seriously. In a way, that is what improved skills. This helps our democracy to survive my Church tries to do, and I think good politics needs and thrive. However, just as the people they help need to operate like that, too. a voice, so too must the charities be allowed to campaign. I want to point to three areas that the Minister They must be able to challenge and lobby government might like to comment on that might allow us to take for change. Any attempt to reduce that ability would seriously the needs of our democracy, which I think at take us a further step away from the desperate the moment is overloaded with answers but provides improvement needed in literacy, improvement that is very little space to discuss questions and a variety of essential to the health of our nation, our economy and possibilities which people would be drawn into to our democracy. participate. 12.56 pm The first area is the potential of trade unions, which the noble Baroness referred to in her opening speech The Lord Bishop of Derby: My Lords, I, too, want and about which we have heard a couple of other to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and I want, mentions. Trade unions can easily be caricatured as in the nicest possible way, to take for granted what she lobbying machines for particular things. In fact, we said, because it was very important and I agree with it know from their history and their present practice, as absolutely. I want to invite us to look at the last three the noble Baroness just said, that they have enormous words, “in a democracy”, as a very important context skill and wisdom in inviting people—in the contexts of for this discussion and debate, not least for the role of work, their communities and broader life—to engage charities, trade unions and civil society. from the micro to the macro. That is a very precious Democracy works through two very important part of our democratic ecology. We need to foster an elements. One, of course, is the offer of ideas and attitude towards trade unions and what they can bring suggestions about what to do to best order society. It is that is positive and encouraging. There is too much about answers to problems. The lobbying industry and negativity based on a narrow view of what trade the contribution that charities make to that, as the unions are about. It will be interesting to hear what noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and the the Government think about the potential of trade noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, and others have shown, is unions to grow this skill they have to enable ordinary very important—“From our experience, here is the people with ordinary experiences to participate in answer to this kind of question”. looking at the questions and not just the answers. However, democracy also requires space for those The second area that I invite the Minister to comment answers to be debated and other options to be looked on, if we want to take seriously the health of democracy, at, which is the role of a body like Parliament. I want is that, quite rightly and commendably, the Government to invite us to recognise that, in our culture, there is an are always conducting reviews and consultations, often enormous deficit of spaces for lobbied answers to be online. I suggest that these reviews and consultations examined and alternatives explored in a mature and could be not just a platform for lobbyists to chuck in participatory way. Not least that is because a lot of all the answers but designed for a more participatory our media offer answers from pretty entrenched ideological exploration by citizens of what options there might be positions, and therefore stoke up the lobbying side of and how new ideas might emerge from the collision democracy rather than provide space for genuine debate of some of the pre-packaged solutions. A great deal of and the looking at alternatives. creative work could be done in this whole culture of From my own experience, I can testify to the hunger review and consultation that the Government rightly people have to participate in debate and discussion spearhead to engage citizens in the democratic process and not just swallow ready-made packages from whoever and not just indicate that they need to choose between is putting up the answer. In the city of Derby a couple one answer and another. 1155 Civil Society and Lobbying [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Civil Society and Lobbying 1156

Finally, I am sure that the Minister will comment happened on my watch as the legion’s head of public on not underestimating the value of churches, civil affairs and could happen again today at any charity. society and charitable spaces, where actually, as other I can never forget my disbelief at what happened: noble Lords have said, volunteers have passion and the invoice from a parliamentary researcher, on paper commitment and want to explore options not just for giving his Westminster email and phone number, and particular sectors but for the well-being of the whole his personal bank account details; a parliamentary of society. researcher, who, unbeknown to his boss, demanded I think that democracy is in danger of being distorted payment for meetings arranged, briefings drafted and by an oversupply of answers. I hope that this Motion Parliamentary Questions prepared; my written advice can also be interpreted, therefore, as looking at some that no payment should be made, given that any of the potential sites and sources to recognise that, parliamentary researcher who demanded payment for besides answers, we must value the importance of such services should not be trusted, notwithstanding questions. that a second version of the invoice was submitted by email omitting reference to preparing Parliamentary 1.03 pm Questions, but for good measure attaching a list of Lord Shinkwin (Con): My Lords, I also thank the Parliamentary Questions tabled; the bullying emails noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for giving your Lordships’ sent to me by the then director of welfare at the legion, House the opportunity to debate such an important who is now the chief executive of Combat Stress, issue. I join with her and the noble Baroness, Lady asking me to process payment of the invoice now; and Jowell, in paying grateful tribute to Lord Rix. the email from the then director-general of the legion I spent almost 20 years in public affairs and belatedly informing me that he had approved payment campaigning in the charity sector, so I will confine my of the invoice. remarks to charities. I count myself privileged to have I have no reason to believe that the email from the seen first-hand the vital role that they play in our then director-general, confirming that he had approved democracy. Throughout my time in the charity sector payment, was a lie. I must take his word at face value I have seen that being able to demonstrate a clear and assume that he wrote the truth. But even if he did connection between donor support and the tangible not tell the truth and payment was not made, it would benefits of the campaigns that their time and support surely be missing the point entirely if we accepted that helped fund was crucial to building trust. It is that somehow that makes such behaviour all right. Either trust that underpins the success and sustainability not way, if he did not tell the truth, lying to one’s colleagues, just of charity campaigning but of the sector itself. quite apart from permitting an environment in which Trust is our charity sector’s life-blood, and right now it a senior director thought it okay to bully a junior is in urgent need of a transfusion. colleague on an ethical issue, is no way to lead a Sadly, I witnessed a serious breach of trust, which charity. How could such behaviour be in any way underlines that urgency. I bring it to your Lordships’ deserving of the trust that millions of donors rightly attention out of the same sense of public-interest duty place in the legion year after year? If there is no that first drove me to stand up and be counted on what wrongdoing, why did the then director-general, as I I still regard as a matter of honour. The duty to speak discovered only subsequently, neither consult nor even truth to power without fear or favour is surely all the inform the charity’s then national chairman about greater because of the privilege and responsibility that such a sensitive issue? Would the trustees of Combat go with being a Member of your Lordships’ House. Stress have appointed their new chief executive had The situation I found myself in as head of public affairs they known of her bullying behaviour and involvement at the Royal British Legion underlines the compelling in this serious matter? I assume that she did not tell need for far greater protection for whistleblowers brave them. Had anyone told me that such behaviour was enough to raise legitimate concerns about ethical issues possible at the legion, I would never have believed or mismanagement in the charity sector. Whistleblowers them—but for the fact that I experienced it myself. are often dismissed as disgruntled former employees, In closing, surely the main lesson to be learned but I know I will only ever be a proud former employee from situations such as this—to which the noble Lord, of the wonderful organisation that is the legion. Happily, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, has already alluded—is the charity is now under new management. Moreover, that just because charities do good things does not the excellent new director-general, Charles Byrne, was mean that bad things do not happen in them, that not there when this situation arose. some people in power do not abuse that power, or that If helping to win the campaign to save the chief some people in positions of trust do not betray that trust. coroner, with the essential support of your Lordships’ If such behaviour is to be prevented, the integrity of House, was my proudest moment at the legion, being our fantastic charity sector needs to be defended by bullied by a then senior director at the charity in an far greater protection for whistleblowers. Only then attempt to get me to sign off payment of an invoice will a strengthened charity sector once again enjoy the that I had advised was of dubious legality—and moreover, trust that is so essential to the success of its vital to learn subsequently that the then director-general campaigning and policy-influencing work. had nonetheless approved payment—has to count as the saddest moment of my career. The fact is that I 1.11 pm was unable to prevent his approval of payment of donors’ money to an individual who should never Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab): My Lords, I have received one penny of legion charitable funds congratulate my noble friend Lady Hayter on securing that were donated in trust. It still haunts me that this this important and timely debate. I thank her, too, for 1157 Civil Society and Lobbying [LORDS] Civil Society and Lobbying 1158

[LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE] are going to be able to know what is happening and giving prior notice to the House that we will have a how they will be able to influence the course of events debate tomorrow on a Private Member’s Bill that I in the Brexit plans. have introduced. The Bill seeks to repeal the Government’s The ease with which people revolve out of Westminster pale imitation of a register of lobbyists that came in in and Whitehall and into the lobbying industry only 2015, and to replace it with a credible register that will adds to the widespread perception that access and allow genuine scrutiny of the activities of professional influence can be bought, and that companies have a lobbyists in a wider range of organisations than hitherto, structural advantage over the wider public. I particularly including charities and trade unions. I reserve for welcome, therefore, the Commons Public Administration tomorrow’s debate the reasons why the current system and Constitutional Affairs Committee’s inquiry into has failed and what a sensible register would look like, the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments, such as the new one in Brussels, the good one in the which is in dire need of an overhaul, to ensure that United States, the one in Canada, or the one our trustworthiness is high on our agenda. neighbours and friends in Ireland have. Shortly we will When it comes to lobbying, the solution is not greater also have a new register in Scotland. I will endeavour restrictions but more sunlight. David Cameron, again, to set out how we can achieve this in a straightforward rightly identified the problem as one of transparency. and cost-effective manner. He said: The problem with lobbying in this country has long “We don’t know who is meeting whom. We don’t know been recognised, including by the previous Prime Minister. whether any favours are being exchanged. We don’t know which In 2010 he described it as, outside interests are wielding unhealthy influence”. “the next big scandal waiting to happen”. Six years after this speech, we still do not know He also rightly identified it as an issue that crosses the answers to those questions. A robust register, of party lines. My party has experienced its fair share of the type that I will propose tomorrow, would tell us scandals. Indeed, it was a sting by Channel 4 in March precisely this and no more: who is lobbying who, about 2010 featuring predominantly ex-Labour Ministers what, and—if my Bill succeeds—how hard; in other offering to help companies lobby in return for payments words, how much money is being invested in those that prompted the 2010 incoming coalition Government lobbying efforts. to promise to shine a light on lobbying. Unfortunately, the introduction of the Government’s In recent weeks we have heard rumblings of a new fundamentally flawed lobbying register was at the time potential source of scandal: the oncoming bonanza overshadowed by their efforts to clamp down on charity arising from the UK’sexit from the EU.When commercial campaigning, as we have heard so much about today lobbying firms are promising to connect clients with during previous contributions. It was pushed through critical Brexit decision-makers so that they can shape at unnecessary speed, and attempts by this and the the post-Brexit regulatory and business environment, other House to improve it were brushed aside. That is it will not be long, I suspect, before we read more tales why I will return to it tomorrow: to give ourselves time of back-room dealings in our press, unless we take for proper, serious debate over an issue that has not action to avoid it. With every lobbying scandal, public been solved, has not miraculously gone away and will trust in politics is eroded. We must do everything we continue to do damage to British politics and our way can to raise our trustworthiness, and, where we can, to of life until we act. persuade those with whom we do business to act accordingly. 1.18 pm Many in this House, myself included, will argue that lobbying is an essential part of good governance. Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, I too It ensures that outside interests are listened to and it congratulate my noble friend Lady Hayter on securing leads to better decisions being made. However, it can this important debate and for the clarity and conviction also pervert our democratic system by allowing those with which it was introduced. It is wide-ranging in its with the loudest voices—and often those with the scope but, like others, I propose to speak in support of deepest pockets—to dominate the discussions, and the role that charities can play in a democracy, and also, in turn, to influence the key decisions. As David explain how they can reach the parts which government Cameron said, sometimes cannot. I do this by sharing the story of “we all know how it works. The lunches, the hospitality, the quiet one particular charity, NOAH Enterprise—New word in your ear, the ex-ministers and ex-advisors for hire, helping Opportunities And Horizons—of which I am privileged big business find the right way to get its way”. to be a trustee, as recorded in the register of interests. Those are the former Prime Minister’s words, not I offer the description of its activities as evidence of mine, even though you might have expected them to be the need to promote the importance of charities’ coming from me. Given the Times article of 24 August, campaigning as well as their role in service delivery at and its related leader article, he might have been the sharp end. I join those who argue for the rejection talking about his former Foreign Secretary, the noble of barriers that place restrictions on charities, preventing Lord, Lord Hague of Richmond, who, if those articles them imparting their experience and pressing policy are correct, has taken up a paid role at a US lobbying and funding issues on government, central or local, if firm that advises its mainly US corporate clients on for no other reason than that it would otherwise be a how to influence the British Government’s Brexit plans. tragic waste of their experience and learning, often That is very interesting, especially in the light of the gained in the most difficult circumstances. It would be number of questions posed in this Chamber, and in letting down the very people who these charities exist the Commons,about the extent to which parliamentarians to serve. 1159 Civil Society and Lobbying [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Civil Society and Lobbying 1160

NOAH is a charity that, out of Christian conviction, its income sources last year included grants from seeks to support the most disadvantaged members of statutory bodies for programmes such as Single Persons the local community,particularly those who are homeless Homeless, the street drinkers project and Jobcentre or at risk of homelessness, who struggle with drug and Plus. Continuity remains a difficulty.Thirty-one foreign alcohol abuse or sleep rough, who have fallen into nationals were repatriated at their request last year, poverty, or who are otherwise marginalised and socially through a fund financed by Luton Borough Council. excluded. It endeavours to do this in a number of It also continues to get support from the Irish Government ways, but fundamentally by a holistic offering of services. under their Emigrant Support Programme, which has It offers street outreach, persuading people to engage been commendably sustained despite the recent recession. with the services on offer, including welfare—essentially Although there are,reasonably,always grant conditions, food, clothing and personal hygiene—access to a GP so far as I am aware nothing has yet emerged which surgery, mobile dentistry and a mental health clinic. It prevents the charity raising public awareness and will seek accommodation for its clients and give advice campaigning, particularly on poverty and homelessness. on budgeting. It will further provide basic training in NOAH’ssecond annual conference took place in February life and vocational skills and can provide work experience. with the theme of working together to address poverty Part of this activity is funded from a social enterprise in Bedfordshire. It was focused on statutory and third involving furniture restoration, as well as from traditional sector decision-makers in the county. charity shops. This enables work experience to be If I had to summarise NOAH’s benefits as an offered in such ways as warehousing, drivers’ assistance, example of what a locally based charity can deliver woodworking, administration and retailing. and why it should be encouraged, I would list that it is To give all this some context, in the year to 31 March driven by a clear and consistent vision; that it might be 2016 there were 486 accepted referrals of people who buffeted from time to time by the policy and funding needed help of one sort or another, while 22,000 distinct swings of the statutory sector, and may have to adapt outreach visits were made and 6,426 breakfasts were sometimes, but its focus is clear; that it can join things served as well as some 17,000 lunches. There were also up in a manner which we know that government, local 484 people enrolled on courses at the new NOAH and national, finds difficult; that it is anchored in Academy, with 71 reaching employment. Moreover, it the community through its many partnerships and can claim numerous active partnerships with a range participation in local life, and through its proactive of statutory and third sector agencies, churches and and articulate chief executive; and that it has the community groups. It has also had the benefit of capacity to build trust among its service users and the volunteers—around 300 a month at the current level—who wider community. It can reach the most excluded in support the operations in a variety of ways. This might our community, to offer hope, and seeks to recognise be in furniture recycling, cooking for the day centre or the fundamental dignity and worth of every individual. working to provide food in the evening. For NOAH, this level of support is vital to its continued 1.26 pm existence. The motivation for the volunteers might be Lord Balfe (Con): My Lords, I add my thanks to the varied but many undoubtedly develop an understanding noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, for initiating this most of the challenges of the most disadvantaged, which valuable debate. I declare not only my register of encourages them to give a voice to those without one. interests declaration; like many Members of this House, Many become unofficial champions of NOAH, spreading I suspect, I have spent much of my life involved in the word and building the support network—campaigning charities, trade unions and other voluntary bodies. It about what NOAH does and what needs to change. In is a part of the rite of passage into this Chamber for a sense, they are like the “Games Makers”: for them, it virtually everybody. is a chance to matter. NOAH has also been the recipient of the CSR efforts of a number of corporates, large Charities have a very soft image but that is not and small, to the mutual benefit of all. This has been a necessarily the whole image. Near the beginning of the two-way process whereby a few corporates have taken debate we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Patten, work placements. about his views on the National Trust, which have been well aired in the Times recently and probably in The focus of NOAH is to assist and support the other papers as well. I am sorry that the noble Lord, poorest on a journey out of destitution and towards a Lord Bragg, is not here because he wrote a powerful sustainable future. As the NCVO says, it addresses the letter to the Times which I found very convincing. I causes of social problems and not just their effects. Its would have liked to have heard his side of that story. approach is to provide a pathway from living on the The sad truth of the matter is that, as with many street to temporary accommodation and daycare, through institutions in society, charities have also faced their to settled accommodation, training, work experience problems. They are facing a loss of trust. and preparation for employment—and then into I cannot remember which noble Lord mentioned employment. This pathway can be joined at any point. the fact that the charities were not allowed to campaign For individuals on that journey, there is the benefit of during the Brexit debate. My prediction is that if its components being delivered under the one trusted charities had been campaigning in that debate, they umbrella of NOAH, much of it delivered on behalf of would probably almost all have been on my side and the state but not by the state. campaigned for remain. But the most significant lesson As with many charities, the era of austerity has of the Brexit debate is how out of touch we were; the meant pressure on its finances, particularly from statutory fact of the matter is that many charities today are out sources and at a time when needs are greatest. However, of touch. There are well paid chief executives, in the 1161 Civil Society and Lobbying [LORDS] Civil Society and Lobbying 1162

[LORD BALFE] among average trade unionists. Most trade unionists name of professionalism, but apparently accountable join a trade union to be defended at work, to be to no one. They are less accountable than a trade looked after and to be protected in difficult circumstances. union general secretary or a chief executive officer in a They do not join in order to be lectured politically. I FTSE-listed company. They often exist in an area am proposing not that we should do anything but that where there is no apparent democratic structure. Can perhaps the unions themselves should take a more anyone tell me what the democratic structure is of the careful look at what they do. Every day I get emails Red Cross, Oxfam, the British Heart Foundation or from the TUC, and I see that Frances O’Grady has the many charities that we see in our high streets? I do today sent a message to the Labour Party to get its act not believe that there is one—but there should be and, together ahead of the TUC in Brighton next week, as such, it might well be time for this area to be which I shall be attending. I will be looking around, revisited. but I do not think it will do that. I look forward to the I do not subscribe to the philosophy that there are TUC sending messages to the Labour Party, the Liberal fewer people. There are in fact more people living Democrats, the Conservative Party and others expressing longer and far more, particularly in my generation, who the needs of working people. I say to the TUC: butt are available, fit and working. My wife holds a position out. It is not your fight. Let the Labour Party and the in the U3A in Cambridge, which has 3,000 members Conservative Party sort out their own politics while in that one city. Admittedly, Cambridge is probably an you fight for the rights of working people, which is exception but there are 3,000 retired people taking what you were set up to do in the first place. part in just one body in one city. There are a lot of people out there but there is a need for some control. 1.33 pm Chugging has been dealt with to an extent but it is Viscount Chandos (Lab): My Lords, I, too, thank still apparent on our streets. We should revisit the need my noble friend Lady Hayter for introducing this for an extension of the Freedom of Information Act important debate and bringing to your Lordships’ to the charitable sector. Why should what the charities House such a powerful analysis of the issues arising do not be accountable? They are, after all, spending from the Government’s action and inaction in this money raised from the public sector or volunteers. It is area. My noble friend’s Motion is wide in its span of not, in large part, private money. Why should they use civil society as a whole and is focused on the specific government money to lobby the Government? I do area of lobbying and the inequitable and illogical not believe that they should. I think the policy we have approach the Government have taken to its regulation on this is quite right. I also believe it would be useful if between charities and the corporate sector. I could not we knew what some charities do. For instance, I have have made the argument on the question of lobbying been told that the NSPCC does not inspect any children better than my noble friend, and I wholeheartedly any more, but is purely a lobbying organisation. I am support what she said. told that Barnardo’s no longer runs homes but lobbies. This is probably a useful thing, but the reality has gone I shall speak primarily about the role of charities a long way away from the image. more broadly in society and the economy. I therefore draw your Lordships’ attention to my position as a My noble friend Lord Shinkwin outlined a very trustee on both the grant-making and operational serious and worrying case in which there was no sides of a number of non-profit organisations which apparent easy redress. It would be useful if the rigour are set out in the register of interests. which we apply to the trade union movement, with the forthcoming introducing of a new,beefed-up Certification The coalition Government launched with the then Officer, was applied to the charitable sector. Perhaps Prime Minister’s grand idea of the big society, a crude charities should have a certification officer. distancing of himself from Mrs Thatcher’s supposed nihilism combined with a convenient and hoped-for I shall make one aside to the noble Lord, Lord piece of sticking plaster for the injuries to be caused Brooke, on lobbying. I am appalled at the way in by the Government’s doctrinaire public expenditure which people leave comfortable government positions, cuts. The current Health Secretary made his pitch for in which they are largely underpaid, and immediately political advancement from what was then his position go into very highly paid positions in which the only of Culture Secretary—look where that got him and reason they are there is because of who they know us—by rapidly agreeing with the Treasury large cuts to from the other side of the case. It appears that the the DCMS budget while assuring the country that the most the body we have for regulating the transition arts would not be adversely affected as philanthropy from public service to private service ever does is to could replace the lost statutory funding—a wholly send somebody on six months of gardening leave. I unrealistic and implausible assumption, as we have have been unable to find an instance of any senior now seen. politician or civil servant being prevented from taking We then moved from big society to silent society, as a well-paid job on the other side. That is not good the Government introduced, despite your Lordships’ service to our democracy. best efforts, the arbitrary and prejudiced restrictions I shall finally say a word or two about trade unions. on lobbying by charities at the centre of today’s debate. Trade unions exist at the other end of the system. Charities and civil society organisations, like the children They spend far too much of their time lobbying for or servants of a Victorian duke, should be seen but not things that are of no interest whatever to their members. heard the Government seem to be saying in response One-third of their members vote for the Conservative to the independent views and campaigning properly Party, which shows a good deal of common sense pursued by charities large and small. Lying behind 1163 Civil Society and Lobbying [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Civil Society and Lobbying 1164 this, apart from a thin-skinned unwillingness to allow I agreed strongly with the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, the Government’sprejudices and actions to be challenged, that self-regulation should be the first line of defence there was also partisan paranoia within at least parts and statutory regulation the second. of the Government and the media by which they are While there have been regrettable high-profile failures so influenced that because some of the best and brightest of governance in the charity sector, the general trend of the Labour Government and their advisers had at the micro and macro level has been positive. In that chosen to work for charities after losing office—a context, I strongly welcome the establishment of the continuation of their public service—the voices of Marshall Institute for Philanthropy and Social those organisations should be restrained. Entrepreneurship at the LSE as the latest and most There is a new Prime Minister and a new era. What, significant initiative to help enhance the effectiveness then, after the big society and silent society, do the and impact of non-profit organisations. new Prime Minister and her Government see as the There has been unanimity today about the key role role of charities? The very first decision is unusually of civil society within our overall society and economy. difficult to interpret. The Prime Minister moved the I hope very much that the Prime Minister, whatever Office for Civil Society and responsibility for charities the other pressures on her, will in due course set out policy from the logical and effective location given it her vision for civil society alongside her welcome and by the Labour Government in the Cabinet Office to well-flagged commitment to industrial strategy. It need the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. “I not—indeed,shouldnot—begrandioseandoverambitious wonder what he meant by that”, said Talleyrand about like the big society, but should demonstrate her the death of the Turkish ambassador and Metternich Government’s recognition of the proper role of civil about Talleyrand’s own death. I wonder what the society. Prime Minister meant by that. She and the new Culture Secretary have both suggested that the work of the 1.42 pm Office for Civil Society fits perfectly with the DCMS’s Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): My Lords, I add mission to enrich lives. Hmm—it is hard not to suspect my voice to the well-deserved, growing chorus of that pressure on Cabinet Office resources as a result of thanks to my noble friend Lady Hayter for giving us the Brexit vote may be the driving reason for this the opportunity to discuss this today. I have sat through change. every speech and am a regular attender in this House, Front Benches in your Lordships’ House are, of as some noble Lords know. I have found it one of the course, famously versatile, so perhaps we should not most interesting debates that I have ever sat through. read too much into the fact that the Minister is, I am It has not been repetitive. We often have debates where sure to your Lordships’ delight, spared long enough people say exactly the same as the person before them, from her Cabinet Office brief to cover the subject for and the same again. This has been really fascinating, which the Cabinet Office is no longer responsible. Yes not least the excellent speech by my noble friend Lord Minister. As the Prime Minister, following the statement Chandos—I hope we will hear a lot more from him, of the Secretary of State for Exiting the European because it was tremendous. Union about the single market, has ruled that Ministers Following the speech by my noble friend Lady Rebuck, can apparently express personal views that are not I am going to rush out and get some books after the necessarily those of the Government, it may be debate. That reading is going to do me a lot of good, I unreasonable to ask the Minister to say how the now know. I will not just enjoy it, it will actually help Government now see the role of charities, particularly me to live longer—so I am looking forward to that. in the light of this apparent ambiguity of departmental This has been a really fascinating debate. I am very responsibilities, but I look forward to her response pleased to have sat through it and to be a member of very much none the less. the Select Committee on Charities, which has been mentioned. It is most ably chaired by my noble friend In the meantime, I can end only by trying to reinforce Lady Pitkeathley, who has vast knowledge of this area. the points made by, among others, my noble friends She is chairing our committee with great skill, expertise Lady Jowell and Lord Griffiths and the noble Baroness, and insight into the sector. I hope the committee will Lady Scott, that charities cannot and should not be come forward with some positive recommendations. seen as a substitute for the proper responsibilities of I think that my noble friend, when she speaks, will government and should be allowed and encouraged to confirm that we are already being inundated with lots lead, innovate and, as a consequence, take risks. of recommendations, evidence and submissions. I have quoted Bill Gates on the role of philanthropy However, as I have said to the committee—my in the past, but the authority that he brings justifies noble friend Lady Pitkeathley knows this—I do not returning to his argument. From a perspective drawn want us to have just the usual suspects: the ones who from founding the largest grant-making foundation in regularly give evidence on this subject. Otherwise, we the world, from a base in a country where philanthropy will not get the new, innovative ideas. We have been has been deeply embedded for over a century and trying to encourage people to come forward with new where, across the political spectrum, the role of ideas and with things that they have tried and that government is seen as smaller than here in the UK let have been successful or not. I think we can learn from alone elsewhere in Europe, Mr Gates has been clear: that. I am really looking forward to the further formal philanthropycannotsubstituteforsupra-national,national evidence sessions when we come back in October. or local government spending. He has argued that it I should have declared at the start—it is in the should take more risk than either government or business. register of interests—that I am now chair of Age That risk should not be uncontrolled or unsupervised. Scotland. Before I was elected to the other place in the 1165 Civil Society and Lobbying [LORDS] Civil Society and Lobbying 1166

[LORD FOULKES OF CUMNOCK] rightly so. Philanthropy is not as widespread as it 1970s, I was director of Age Concern Scotland, so I ought to be. Sometimes, it is the poorer people who have been involved in that area for a while. When I was are giving more—and certainly a larger percentage of asked to become a trustee of Age Scotland a few years their income and wealth—to charities than anyone ago, the current chief executive, my successor, said, else. It needs to be recognised that raising money is “We want you on, George, because we knew you becoming more difficult. I hope that we will take would have an interest in it, having been director of account of this when we look at it in the Select Age Concern Scotland”. But he said, “You’ll have Committee. more of a vested interest in the subject now”. I swore I have one last thing to say. We have three hours, so at him and said, “What a—something—cheek”. But the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, should not worry he was right; I do have an interest in it and I understand too much—or indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm the issues much better by being on the wrong end of of Owlpen, for whom I have great respect, whether she the age spectrum myself. is responsible or not, as my noble friend Lord Chandos I have found the debate fascinating, but I refute said. I want to say a positive word about trade unions. almost everything that the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, I am a member of the General and Municipal Workers’ said. I do not think that he understands the charitable Union, and did a bit of work in this place for USDAW, sector at all. He said that we are not accountable. That the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers. is rubbish. We have an annual general meeting coming Again, this comes back to what the noble Lord, Lord up later this year at which all the members—we have Balfe, said. USDAW asked me to take up an issue more than 1,000—will be represented. They will decide because its members were being attacked in shops, to re-elect or not the officers of the organisation. In particularly when selling alcohol, and were being Scotland, we are also accountable to the OSCR, the threatened; they were under tremendous pressure. I Scottish Charity Regulator,and in England to the Charity took up the issue and moved an amendment here. Commission. That is a great deal of accountability. That is exactly the kind of thing that trade unions do Having become a trustee, I have great piles of paper to look after their members, so I hope that the noble about the responsibilities of trustees. The grave Lord, Lord Balfe, will listen carefully when he goes to responsibilities are putting people off becoming trustees. the Trades Union Congress next week. I think that he If they get it wrong, they are in trouble. The noble will find a message there that he ought to take account Lord, Lord Balfe—I was going to say “Comrade of, just as he ought to take account of the message Balfe”—should understand that. Trustees are accountable, that charities are democratic, are accountable and, and certainly more accountable than any member of equally, are doing a damned good job. this House at the moment. It is really important to recognise that. 1.51 pm Most of the debate has been about lobbying. I am not going to say very much about it except that it is a Lord Black of Brentwood (Con): My Lords, I join pity that it has become a dirty word because of some all other noble Lords in thanking the noble Baroness of the scandals. There is absolutely nothing wrong in a very much for initiating this debate and allowing us an democracy with any body, organisation or individual opportunity to talk about one of the brightest jewels making representations, particularly to elected Members in the crown of our national public life, which is our in the other place. That is what it is all about in a charities. I should declare that a number of the bodies democracy. They are supposed to take account of the with which I am involved as a trustee are registered views of all the organisations working in our communities charities, and these are listed in the register. and in society. There is absolutely nothing wrong with For me, as we have heard so often during this it; it is democratic accountability—representation at debate, there is one golden thread which links together work. That is all I want to say about lobbying. all those organisations which make up the rich tapestry My main point is that we on the Select Committee of Britain’s charitable sector, and that is the care they are already finding, and I am finding at Age Scotland give to the vulnerable and the needy and the voice they and I know other people in other charities are finding, give them. I want to talk about one specific group that that charities are currently between a rock and a hard looks after perhaps one of the most vulnerable groups place, to use that old phrase—the upper and lower in our society—our pets and animals. I welcome this grindstones of the mill—and are being really squeezed. opportunity to pay a heartfelt tribute to the vital work Charities are expected to do more and more. The need of the UK’s animal welfare charities. I was delighted is growing, particular among the elderly. The number that the noble Baroness, in her opening remarks, was of old people is growing almost exponentially. As we able to put over some of the vital points that they have live longer, the needs become greater. Loneliness is a made to her. A great deal of the work they do, and huge problem that we are having to tackle. I echo what how they deliver it, is highly relevant to this debate my noble friends Lord Chandos and Lord Griffiths and to the important issues that have been raised. said earlier: charities should not be taking on the We are a nation of animal lovers and pet owners. responsibilities that should rightly be carried out by More than half of homes own, between them, 9 million statutory bodies. That is clear, but we are still being dogs, 11 million cats and many other types of pet, asked to do more and more of the work that is rightly including a growing number of exotic animals. I am an done by voluntary organisations. unabashed cat lover, and there is nothing my husband At the same time, it is becoming more difficult to or I would not have done over the years to look after raise the money to do the work. We heard earlier about the seven cats who have been in our care. Indeed, the chugging. That is being questioned and challenged—and vast majority of the UK’s pets are looked after extremely 1167 Civil Society and Lobbying [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Civil Society and Lobbying 1168 well, but not all are so lucky. We have a real problem so—and have now undertaken to deliver much of the with stray animals and with pets being abandoned, chipping. Hundreds of projects nationwide are now often due to economic circumstances or because owners involved in implementing this policy. Such has been failed to do research about caring for a pet before the success of the initiative, I believe there is now a buying one online. Tragically, there is the ever-present case to make microchipping of cats compulsory, too. horror of animal cruelty. Another area where the sector works in partnership Those are the cases where our nation’s animal with government is in making online pet advertising charities—to quote the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I more responsible, with excellent results. Thanks to the think—go to the places that government cannot go to. work of the Pet Advertising Advisory Group, more That is where Cats Protection, Blue Cross, the Dogs than 100,000 irresponsible advertisements—for instance, Trust, PDSA, the RSPCA and Battersea Dogs & Cats those advertising pregnant animals—have been removed Home step into the breach. The scale of the challenges from websites. Provision of data which government they face, and of their achievements, is huge. Dogs does not or cannot collect, for instance the PDSA Trust estimates that 100,000 stray dogs a year are annual benchmark about the well-being of companion handled by local councils, and it cares for a significant animals, is also crucial in informing the development proportion of them—more than 15,000 last year. With of policy and shaping future legislation. cats, neutering is a real problem, and Cats Protection Finally, perhaps the most important characteristic helped neuter 159,000 cats and kittens last year, in the that all these charities share in common is that they largest companion animal neutering programme in provide a vital independent voice speaking out for the world, as well as rehoming 44,000 cats. For those animals and making sure they remain on the political pets in need of urgent medical attention, the PDSA agenda, and we must ensure they continue to have the provides more than 2.7 million treatments to pets ability to do just that. That message has come through every year, delivering wonderful care alongside the loud and clear in the debate today. They all have RSPCA and the Blue Cross. skilled advocates researching issues, advising government, For me, all these great organisations share five things pushing for change and indeed holding us all to account in common which are central to the issues we are for the delivery of policy. That is a hugely important debating today.First, they are all civil society organisations role, and one we should cherish and encourage. We that rely hugely on the tremendous, selfless support of should not add any further regulatory burdens on to volunteers—highlighted so well by my noble friend them. Lord Lingfield earlier on. Cats Protection, for instance, We all know that our pets provide pleasure, has 9,700 volunteers, the stalwart volunteers at Battersea companionship and a unique form of unconditional Cats & Dogs Home last year gave 73,000 hours of love which enriches our lives. We should do what we service, and the PDSA saves £12 million each year can to repay that. So let us salute the work of all those thanks to its voluntary workers. Those are fantastic charities which, in advising and working with government, achievements. providing vital services at no cost to taxpayers, helping Secondly, all the animal welfare charities are major to educate young people and, above all, acting as providers of independent advice, information and champions for the voiceless, are a crucial part of the education, helping people look after their pets responsibly fabric of our civil society. These organisations do so and preventing neglect and cruelty.Blue Cross and Cats much to care for some of the most vulnerable creatures Protection last year spoke to more than 100,000 children in our society. and young people about responsible pet ownership, while the Dogs Trust ran more than 6,000 workshops 1.58 pm in schools and youth clubs. That work would be much Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab): My Lords, like other enhanced if young people were also to learn about noble Lords, I thank my noble friend for bringing these issues at school. If the Government could do one forward this debate today and declare my interests as thing to help these very hard-pressed charities and set out in the register. I am speaking today in my their volunteer armies, it would be to make animal capacity as chair of the recently established Select welfare part of the national curriculum in primary Committee on Charities. I also thank my noble friend schools. Would my noble friend perhaps be able to Lord Foulkes for his kind remarks—I will pay him look afresh at that? later. The committee was established in June of this Thirdly, these organisations all provide services that year to, government cannot provide and which otherwise would “consider issues related to sustaining the charity sector, and the not exist, including Blue Cross’sPet Bereavement Support challenges of charity governance”. Service, Cats Protection’s Paws to Listen helpline for This is a broad remit, but one we will endeavour to those struggling with the loss of a cat, and the Dogs tackle. Trust’s Hope Project, which helps the dogs of homeless The charitable sector in this country has a long and people—all important services provided with no burden proud history, as your Lordships know only too well. on the taxpayer. However, it is clear to me and my committee—and, Fourthly, these charities are an invaluable source of indeed, I think to your Lordships’House as a whole—that data and information for government, and also provide the sector is under pressure. In fact, in 40-plus years of front-line services which help deliver on public policy. working in and with the sector, I have never known it The best example is probably compulsory microchipping under such pressure. I know that none of this will be of dogs, where charities campaigned for the change—and news to any of your Lordships, but it is worth reflecting it was absolutely right that they had the ability to do on those pressures. 1169 Civil Society and Lobbying [LORDS] Civil Society and Lobbying 1170

[BARONESS PITKEATHLEY] for charities to thrive. We are clear as a committee that The scandals of recent years mean that the sector is what must not be allowed to happen is that the excellent under intense scrutiny. The impact of that scrutiny has and essential work of so many charities should be been for the general public to start thinking more blemished by the actions of a small minority. If we carefully about where its money is going. There is no encounter complacency and poor practice, we will of doubt that there has been a decline in levels of trust in course challenge them, but we are seeking to celebrate the sector, and though recent research suggests that success and innovation more than anything else. trust is on the rise again, the sector can never be I am delighted to say that we have received more complacent. We know that the worst stories do not than 150 submissions to our call for evidence, the represent the best of the sector, but, equally, we know deadline for which was last Monday—but of course there is work to be done about regulation. we are being flexible about that. Of those submissions, Of course, anyone who has anything to do with the 112 were from charities themselves, and, of those, charitable sector cannot fail to be aware of the huge 28% were from charities with a turnover of less than financial pressures it faces. We are a very long way £1 million. I think it is particularly important for the from the heady days of the early 2000s, when we all members of my committee to hear the voices of small felt flush, when government money was being dished and medium-sized charities. My committee and I have out to all sorts of strategic partners, to many different a busy few months ahead and some big questions to initiatives, and when local authorities were keen to go consider. We are up to the challenge and committed to into partnership to deliver innovative schemes for making sure that the right policies and support systems tackling deprivation. We even had an advisory body in are in place for the sector to continue to be such a what was then called the Office of the Third Sector, valuable part of our society. now called the OCS, which I had the honour to chair. I turn now to the issue of lobbying. It is inevitable, What is more familiar now is the winding up of when we think about charities, that we tend to focus charities, their disappearance rather than their expansion on the services they provide, because that is what we and innovation. At the same time, the demand for are most familiar with. I am delighted that the title of charitable services has increased with rising levels of our debate today includes the issue of lobbying activity poverty and deprivation and the results of austerity, as because, to my mind, this lobbying, this voice, this noble Lords have said. representative function is one of the most important To add to these pressures, there is the current functions which charities perform. political and economic uncertainty in light of Brexit. I was proud to be, for more than 10 years, the CEO Your guess is as good as mine on what will happen of Carers UK, whose sole function was to advocate on next, but even the risk of instability is a challenge for behalf of carers and to bring to the attention of the sector. We know that, as the country adapts to a government, the media and the general public the post-Brexit landscape, the charity sector will be expected contributions made by carers and to ensure that they to adapt and evolve. I have every confidence that it will receive support in the important but stressful role they do so because the sector’s record of adaptation and play. When I first worked in this area, the very word initiative is well documented, but the road ahead may “carer” was unknown—indeed, it was nearly always be hard. misspelled as “career”. Now carers are out of the We also have the new Act. I hope that the Charity closet, and that is almost entirely down to the work of Commission powers will be used cautiously and carers’ organisations enabling carers to make their proportionately.The powers to make social investments case and gain support. There is still not enough support, are also an important step forward for charities, and I of course, so the work must go on. Therefore, anything hope they will prove to be of benefit—I should declare which in any way restricts the ability of vulnerable my interest as chair of the Big Society Trust, which groups to lobby or put their case must be resisted at is set up to keep the Big Society Capital true to its all costs. mission of supporting the social sector. We should I have spoken on this issue all over the world. Our not, however, be deluded into thinking that social tradition of charities being funded by government to investment is a panacea for the money problems of the lobby government is the envy of the world. It is the charitable sector. It is an important element but an envy of many countries which are not so fortunate as element only. the United Kingdom is to have that philosophy. I Noble Lords know that the sector has had its share know many noble Lords feel as passionate about this of both positive and negative parliamentary attention as I do, and I hope the Minister will assure us that she in recent years, but there was an appetite to look more does, too. widely at the challenges faced by the sector and how it can be most effectively supported in its important 2.05 pm work. I acknowledge the hard work of the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, in bringing this to the attention of the Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con): My Lords, Liaison Committee and for its decision to set up the what an extraordinary debate—absolutely fascinating. ad hoc committee. The committee wants to help and I wish to declare an interest: I have a daughter who is a support the sector and for this to be a positive engagement director of Hanover Communications, though I have exercise which truly reflects the problems for everyone to say we speak mainly about babies rather than working with charities. lobbying. I have described the pressures, but part of what the I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish committee wants to understand is the opportunities, Town, for tabling this fascinating debate, and take a as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has said, that exist moment to pay a tribute to Lord Rix, who was also 1171 Civil Society and Lobbying [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Civil Society and Lobbying 1172 mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Jowell. He is they feel that there are problems. Noble Lords have going to be hugely missed for the extraordinary work heard what my noble friend has said today about the he did with Mencap—and in the theatre. My first National Trust; it is important that they engage with theatre experiences were going to the Brian Rix farces, him on these subjects. which brought so much joy to us all. I also say that we The noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, mentioned that wish the noble Lord, Lord Judd, a very speedy recovery. charities need freedom to innovate and to provide The richness of the debate highlights the breadth of evidence of what is happening on the front line. Certainly, civil society expertise in this House and demonstrates charities are independent and the law recognises that. the importance we all place on preserving and They are free to innovate and campaign to further championing the vital roles of charities, trade unions their charitable purposes. There are many good examples and civil society within our democracy. I therefore of charities innovating with great success and where welcome the efforts of the Lords Select Committee on charities’evidence has been heeded in government policy. Charities,chaired by the noble Baroness,Lady Pitkeathley. I know that many other of today’s speakers will continue We work in close partnership with civil society to to make a valuable contribution to the future work of make sure that we deliver our vision for a bigger, this committee. stronger society. We are working together and there have been a number of significant achievements. I will The noble Viscount, Lord Chandos, mentioned the highlight just a few of these successes. Last year, role of the Office for Civil Society versus the Cabinet 3 million more adults volunteered than in 2010—a Office. I think this is the moment to say that this tremendous increase in the number of people giving debate is focused on issues that cross departmental up their time to support good causes. More than boundaries. The Cabinet Office remains responsible 200,000 young people have taken part in the excellent for grant-funding policy and the Transparency of National Citizen Service. They are volunteers; they are Lobbying Act. It is the Office for Civil Society that has not forced to take up these roles. Volunteering among moved to the DCMS, where there are clear synergies, 16 to 25 year-olds is up by more than 50% since 2010. but obviously we all work in a joined-up way. Our social economy is thriving: 200,000 social enterprises This Government are committed to supporting a now employ more than 2 million people and the UK is healthy, diverse and sustainable civil society. Civil recognised as a world leader in social investment and society is uniquely placed to respond to many of the social impact bonds. Social action contributes £34 billion social challenges we face and occupies a special place each year to public services, reducing the pressure on in our national psyche. Certainly,from the right reverend public services such as the NHS and schools. We have Prelate’s speech, it is clear how much the Church does recruited more than 6,500 community organisers, who in this area. The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, and the noble act as local leaders bringing people together to take Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, said that the Government action on the things they care about. need to pay heed to the voices of charities. Other noble Despite what some may think, the number of registered Lords also mentioned this. The Government remain charities has risen since 2010; their income is up by absolutely committed to engaging with and listening almost 35% to more than £71 billion and their workforce to charities. By way of one example, earlier this week, has continued to grow.The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, the charity sector leaders were invited to a round table talked about NOAH; this shows just what a local with three Ministers to discuss the implications and charity can do. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, mentioned opportunities for charities of exiting the European the importance of giving and philanthropy. The CAF Union. I think that many charities feel anxious about World Giving Index 2015 ranked the UK as the second how this is going to affect them, and it is very important most generous nation in the world, up from eighth in that we engage with them from the beginning. 2010. This is indeed quite an achievement. Charities fulfil many different important roles, from We will continue to support civil society with our delivering public services, to supporting those in need, ambitious agenda for the remainder of this Parliament. to raising awareness of particular issues. All these At the heart of this is our expansion of the National roles are important, and we are very keen to make sure Citizen Service, guaranteeing a place for all young that we are fully engaged. It is for this reason that we people and progressing with the NCS Bill. We are have recently reformed charity law with the Charities committed to scaling up social impact bonds in areas (Protection and Social Investment) Act 2016 and have such as youth unemployment, mental health and supported sector-led changes to fundraising regulation. homelessness and have launched the new £80-million A sound legal framework provides the essential space life chances fund. This fund will catalyse many more in which charities operate.These changes are strengthening social impact bonds, tackling complex social issues charities’ protection from abuse and helping to rebuild locally, including drug and alcohol dependency. We public trust and confidence in charity fundraising. I have proven the concept of social investment—the know that several noble Lords speaking today made task now is to scale up the model, so we can help even important contributions to the development of these more of our fellow citizens. To this end, we have built changes and I put on record my thanks for their a five-year partnership with the Blavatnik School of involvement and commitment to supporting that vital Government at Oxford University to create a government work. outcomes lab. This will become a centre of expertise My noble friend Lord Patten mentioned problems for SIBs and innovative government commissioning, with the National Trust. It is important to remember by increasing the information, data, evidence and that members of the public, and indeed noble Lords, technical support available to commissioners to develop should raise these issues directly with charities where more SIBs locally. We are working ever more closely 1173 Civil Society and Lobbying [LORDS] Civil Society and Lobbying 1174

[BARONESS CHISHOLM OF OWLPEN] to carefully consider everything. I am sure that they with businesses to support and enhance their socially would be very happy to meet my noble friend to responsible activity, with the particular priority of discuss his report; I will ask the Minister for the promoting employee volunteering in large companies. Constitution to provide an update to him. My noble friend Lord Balfe mentioned charity I turn to the regulation of lobbying activity, which accountability.Charities are publicly accountable through I know excites a lot of noble Lords in this House. We their annual accounts and trustees’ annual reports. will of course discuss this in greater detail tomorrow. These are publicly available on the Charity Commission’s It is obviously the regulation for the activity of businesses website. and private interests. The statutory registry of consultant I turn to third-party campaigning, which was lobbyists is designed to shine the light of transparency mentioned by several noble Lords,including the noble and on those who seek to influence the Government. It right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, my noble friend complements the existing transparency regime whereby Lord Balfe and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott. We Ministers and Permanent Secretaries publish details need to strike a balance between the freedom to campaign of their meetings with external organisations. Before and increased transparency of third-party campaigning the lobbying register was established, it was not clear during election periods. I think that we can all agree from diaries alone whose interests consultants were on the need for effective controls that limit the opportunity representing. The register requires people who are for groups to exert an undue or improper influence on paid to lobby the Government on behalf of others government and help to make the political system publicly to disclose their clients. The register also has more accountable. Lobbying plays an important role enhanced scrutiny on consultant lobbyists, who must in ensuring that everyone’s voice is heard in Westminster, declare whether they subscribe to a code of conduct. but lobbying must be transparent. Our aim was to avoid unnecessary regulatory burdens, The Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party not to establish top-to-bottom regulation of all who Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act 2014 lobby. That is why we set up an appropriate and is about giving the public more confidence in the way pinpointed way to ensure high levels of transparency that third parties interact with the political system. in the specific areas of the lobbying industry where Importantly, and quite rightly, the rules prevent any they were needed. individual or organisation exerting undue influence on We believe that a statutory register of consultant an election outcome. The Act was never intended to lobbyists is a proportionate and appropriate approach restrict the freedom to campaign by charities and to the identified issue—that it is not always clear other campaigners but instead to make the political whose interests are being represented by consultant system more accountable. Remaining above the party- lobbyists. Calls for extending its scope would duplicate political fray in all forms of communication is vital to a transparency system already in place. The lobbying maintaining public trust in charities and the important industry has welcomed the continuation of self-regulatory work that they do. Under charity law, charities have codes of conduct and, to date, 130 lobbying companies the right to undertake campaigning and political activity have registered with the registrar. We will be talking where it supports their charitable aim, where trustees about this further tomorrow, so I am not going to go consider it to be an effective use of charitable resources, into huge detail now. and provided they do not engage in party politics. The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, and the noble and I move on to the excellent and thought-provoking right reverend Lord, Lord Harries, brought up the review done by my noble friend Lord Hodgson. The proposed anti-lobbying clause in government grants. review clearly set out the need for regulation of third-party The Government are committed to ensuring that campaigning and recommended that some of the existing taxpayers’ funds are spent on improving people’s lives regulations be tightened—as my noble friend noted in and good causes, rather than on improper lobbying his report, these recommendations interlock and are for new regulation or for more government funding. to be seen as a package. The report recommends some As the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, mentioned, the strengthening of the regulatory regime, such as clarifying anti-lobbying clause in grant agreements was never the exclusion for supporters of the organisation and targeted at charities. The voluntary sector,which includes requiring campaigners to submit more detailed charities, makes up less than 7% of all government information to the Electoral Commission regarding grant recipients. The collaborative process we built their planned activities. My noble friend Lord Hodgson’s into the development of the anti-lobbying clause has report is one of a number of reports that have been enabled us to understand further its impact on the received following last year’s general election, including many and varied recipients of government grants. the Law Commission’s interim report and reports That led to a decision to pause the implementation from the Electoral Commission with recommendations pending further consideration of the wording of the for change. It is obviously important that the Government clause and its effects. We are continuing to work with consider all these reports carefully. I am sure that my departments, academics, research organisations and honourable friend the Minister for the Constitution the voluntary sector to ensure the effective implementation will pay close attention to the points raised in this of this policy. This is taking time and changes will be debate as he considers the recommendations of my announced and communicated in due course. noble friend Lord Hodgson’s third-party campaigning The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, mentioned the review. chilling effect. It was never the intention of the grants My noble friend wanted to know when the Government clause to stop charities providing independent, evidenced- would respond to his report. I cannot make any promises based advice to government policy through either but there are new Ministers in the post who will need giving evidence to Select Committees, or meeting with 1175 Civil Society and Lobbying [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Civil Society and Lobbying 1176

Ministers or officials to discuss the progress of taxpayer- to answer every point, but I assure all noble Lords funded grant schemes. The aim is to ensure that grant who have spoken that I have made a note of what has funding is used as intended. been said and will take all these points back to the The noble Baroness also mentioned that the grants department. We will discuss and make sure that your clause stops charities from lobbying and from speaking voices are heard and I hope that we will have another out on behalf of beneficiaries. Restrictions in grant debate where we continue the important work that has terms and conditions are not new. Existing terms and been mentioned today. conditions limit the use of grants to activities set out in the grant agreement. Such restrictions do not stop charities from using other funding to support lobbying 2.27 pm or political activity. Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, I The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, also referred to thank the Minister and all the speakers. I obviously the chilling effect. She said that charities were unsure regret that the response to the report from the noble about what compliance means in grants’ terms and Lord, Lord Hodgson, was not forthcoming. I look conditions. It is robust, and mutually agreed that the forward to hearing the outcome of the meeting and I grant agreements make clear to charities what delivery hope that it might be transmitted to the whole of your entails. Lordships’ House. I also regret that the Government are only pausing The noble Lord, Lord Lingfield, mentioned ineffective the anti-advocacy clause. I think it was the noble grant funding management. The Government are focused Lord, Lord Black, who said that charities provide care on improving its effectiveness and efficiency. This will and voice. That has been the overwhelming view of ensure that we work more effectively with charities to those who have spoken today.The front-line experience— deliver value to the taxpayer. that day-to-day contact that charities have—is essential My noble friend Lord Balfe and the noble Baroness, to feed back into the legislative process, adding a voice Lady Hayter, mentioned trade unions. The Government that would not otherwise be heard. My noble friend recognise the role that trade unions have played and Lord Chandos may be right when he says that the can play in developing the economy,maintaining positive Government seem to want a silent society. It is no industrial relations and supporting employers in upskilling good saying that charities can find other funds for their staff and in participating. However, we are their policy and advocacy work. As my noble friend determined that we must balance their rights with Lord Griffiths said, that is fine if you are running a those of working people and businesses. They have charity looking after children, or indeed animals. It is their own right to expect that the services on which very easy to raise money then. However, it is much they rely are not going to be disrupted at short notice more difficult if you are doing it for unpopular causes. by strikes with the support of only a small proportion Those of us involved in those areas are highly dependent of union members. on public funds and there is not necessarily other Before I finish, I want to highlight the positive money available to look after those broader interests. relationship between charities, wider civil society, trade I should have declared my interest as a charity unions and Government. The right reverend Prelate trustee and, indeed, as a proud member of the National the Bishop of Derby mentioned this. Joined-up thinking Trust. If every organisation were as popular as that, is so important and the round-table discussions that we should all be very grateful. We have heard today he started in Derby are interesting. This is often the about the extraordinary work being done by NOAH, way forward. They get people together. It may not Unionlearn, St John Ambulance, the Cat Protection be with a specific charity, but it gets them thinking League, Quick Reads, Carers and all sorts of organised about how we might help people in their various charities, the stress on their potential for innovation neighbourhoods. and about the fruits of their experience that otherwise Looking to the past, there are many examples of are not discovered. Therefore, I hope that the Minister’s where the Government have responded to the voice of final words about listening and taking back our comments the voluntary sector. I shall give just one. Towards the to whichever department they concern will happen. I end of the last Parliament the Office for Civil Society think that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of launched a £20-million local sustainability fund. It Derby said that these charities are a precious part of came about as a direct response to concerns voiced by our democratic ecology. To continue their work they the sector—that small and medium charities were need a relationship with the Government which is not struggling more than many others to respond to the where it is at the moment. At present, they feel that the challenging operating environment. The noble Baroness, Government want to tie them up in anti-advocacy Lady Pitkeathley, mentioned that charities are finding clauses and prevent them lobbying. That surely is not it difficult. The launch of this fund will certainly help good for any of us. particularly the medium and small charities. It is now On behalf of the whole House, I add my thanks to helping more than 260 charities to reform and secure my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley, the noble and right the future of their services. I am sure there will be reverend Lord, Lord Harries, and the noble Lord, many more such examples of collaboration between Lord Hodgson, who have taken on particular roles. the Government and civil society in the future. We look forward to the future work of the Select Committee. Charities are much loved by this House. I look forward to debating and discussing with your We hope that we can trust the Government to be a Lordships what more can be done to continue our great help rather than a hindrance to them. support of civil society in the months and years ahead. In a debate such as this, it has been almost impossible Motion agreed. 1177 Grammar Schools [LORDS] Grammar Schools 1178

[BARONESS HAYTER OF KENTISH TOWN] morning would have been struck by just how unconvinced Grammar Schools she herself sounded when making it. The Minister will Statement regard it as a backhanded compliment that his delivery was slightly better. On the day that she assumed office, the Prime 2.31 pm Minister announced that she would put social mobility TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department at the heart of her agenda. That pledge was cast into for Education (Lord Nash) (Con): My Lords, with the doubt when she quickly abolished maintenance grants leave of the House, I will repeat in the form of a for students and any doubts were removed yesterday Statement the Answer given by my right honourable when she defended plans for new or expanded grammar friend the Secretary of State for Education to an schools. The Minister said that he was open-minded Urgent Question in the other place earlier today about on the matter; the Prime Minister has already moved grammar schools. The Statement is as follows. at least one step beyond that because whatever claims in “As the Prime Minister has said, this Government support of grammar schools can be sustained, advancing are committed to building a country that works for social mobility is not one of them. I was surprised to everyone, not just the privileged few, and we believe hear the Minister tell your Lordships’ House yesterday that every person should have the opportunity to fulfil that there is no clear evidence to support the views of their potential, no matter what their background or the Chief Inspector of Schools, who said that the idea where they are from. Education is at the heart of this that poor children would benefit from the return of ambition. We inherited a system from the last Labour grammar schools was, “tosh and nonsense”. In fact, Government, however, where far too many children the Minister need look no further than Buckinghamshire left school without the qualifications or skills they or Kent to have Sir Michael Wilshaw’sopinion confirmed needed to be successful in life. Our far-reaching reforms —an opinion, it might be said, that was supported over the last six years have changed this: strengthening yesterday by the Minister’s colleague and former school leadership; improving standards of behaviour Education Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Willetts. in our classrooms; ensuring children are taught to In answer to a question following her Statement read more effectively; and improving maths teaching today, the Secretary of State said that the Government’s in primary schools. As a result, there are now 1.4 million plans will not involve a return to secondary moderns. more pupils in schools rated as good or outstanding Well, perhaps not in name, but as that suggests that a than in 2010. This means more young people are being considerable amount of policy development must have given the opportunity to access better teaching and to taken place already, will the Minister explain how the maximise their potential. This is what we want for all Government believe that a return to the entrenched children and we are continuing our reforms so that inequality and social disadvantage of the 1950s and every child can have the best possible start in life. It is 1960s can be avoided? We fully understand why some why we are doubling free childcare to 30 hours for parents are attracted to grammar schools and accept working parents of three and four year-olds. they want only what is best for their children, but to expand grammar schools by a non-legislative route at As I said in July on the issue of academic selection, a time when school budgets are squeezed and teaching I am open-minded because we cannot rule out anything posts remain unfilled shows a skewed sense of priorities. that could help us to grow opportunity for all and give Therefore, can the Minister give an assurance that more people the chance to do well in life. The landscape newly created academies or free schools will not be for schools has changed hugely in the last 10, 20, used as a backdoor method of reintroducing selection 30 years—we now have a whole variety of educational into state-funded schools? offers available. There will be no return to the simplistic, binary choice of the past where schools separate children Lord Nash: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his into winners and losers, successes or failures. This compliment. I will take any compliment I get from Government want to focus on the future, to build on him, backhanded or not. As I said yesterday, I am a our success since 2010 and to create a truly 21st-century great fan of Sir Michael Wilshaw. He has played a big schools system. We want a system that can cater for part in improving our school system and I am delighted the talents and abilities of every single child. To achieve that he is in the Chamber today. I am fully aware that that, we need a truly diverse range of schools and there are arguments on both sides of this debate. specialisms. We need more good schools in more areas However, we do not want this to be a dogmatic, of the country responding to the needs of every child, ideological debate. Just because things may not have regardless of their background. worked well in the past does not mean that we cannot We are looking at a range of options and I expect find ways of making them work in the future for all any new proposals to focus on what we can do to help pupils. We will make any changes against a background everyone to go as far as their own individual talents of ensuring that we improve the system for all pupils and capacity for hard work will take them. Education and against our drive for social mobility. However, we policy to that end will be set in due course”. need more good and outstanding school places and we want all schools in the system that are good and 2.34 pm outstanding to help us to do that. As I say, we have not made a policy announcement but I am sure there will Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab): My Lords, I thank be further Statements in due course. the Minister for repeating the Statement although it must be said that it was rather vague and unconvincing. Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, it has been reported Indeed, anyone listening to the Secretary of State this that the Prime Minister wants a new generation of 1179 Grammar Schools[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1180 inclusive grammar schools and yet selection at age 11, in 2010, only one in five pupils in state schools was which the grammar school implies, excludes those studying a core suite of academic subjects—something who fail the selection test. Many young people do not that would be regarded as basic fare in most successful reach their full potential until they are in their teens. education jurisdictions and in any independent school. To write them off at the age of 11 would deny them the Through EBacc we doubled the number of pupils opportunity to succeed. Why do the Government not doing this. We are determined to see many more pupils concentrate on the Liberal Democrat achievements in doing the EBacc and doing a core suite of academic the coalition, not just free early years education but subjects. It gives disadvantaged pupils in particular also the pupil premium for disadvantaged youngsters the cultural capital they need, as they do not get that and free school meals—measures that will deliver a at home. We have been very focused on improving the truly inclusive educational system? academic achievement of all our pupils.

Lord Nash: I entirely agree that the coalition Lord Grocott (Lab): My Lords, however carefully Government’s policy on pupil premium has been a the Statement is worded, will the Minister acknowledge clear success. We want an inclusive system. As I said that if you select young children at 11, there is no way yesterday, one of the ways that we think grammar of avoiding the fact that up to 80% of the children in schools can help improve their intake of pupils on free the area will be labelled at that age as having failed. I school meals, which I accept is very low, is by taking know people who took the 11-plus 60 years ago who responsibility for some of their feeder primaries so today, not far below the surface, feel bitter and hurt by they have a vested interest in them and can improve what happened to them half a century previously. In the performance of many more pupils on free school one case three passed and one failed; you can imagine meals at an early age so that they can go to those schools. the effect of that in a family. How on earth can he I take the point about the cut-off age of 11 and introduce a policy of this sort that does not include whether pupils cannot move at a later date. I assure those insuperable disadvantages? the noble Lord that that is something we will consider Lord Nash: We do not wish to go back to the past. and are looking at. We want a modern policy for the future. We shall be consulting widely on anything we come up with and Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB): My Lords, I we believe many of these issues may be overcomable start by declaring my interest as a former chair of two and may result in an improvement across the board in academy schools—one of which involved seven pupil our school standards. referral units—and as the mother of a daughter who is a teacher in an outstanding academy school in London. Lord Sutherland of Houndwood (CB): My Lords, Can the Minister tell me whether any review will does the Minister agree that progress over the last few include an examination of the availability of pupil years in schools—and there has been significant referral unit places in England? Many pupils are either progress—has owed nothing to the argument about excluded from school while awaiting a place, or remain whether we should have grammar schools? That is a in mainstream schools—at a disadvantage to themselves political argument, which unfortunately some on each as individuals, while also often providing a challenge side would like to resurrect. The issue is excellence in to the effective learning of other students in their schools. There is already selection; setting takes place classes. The most disadvantaged and needy should in schools. There are schools already within the system have equal rights to having their potential fulfilled. I which can select on the basis of special aptitude—for firmly believe that, if we consider reintroducing selective example the King’s College specialist school in schooling, we will need to look at both ends of the mathematics, where there is no point attending unless spectrum, because I am certain that grammar schools you have particular ability in mathematics. Selection would not keep such pupils if they had problems. can take place, but there has to be a rationale for it that is not political. Lord Nash: I entirely agree with the noble Baroness about alternative provision and PRUs. We have in fact Lord Nash: The noble Lord, as always, makes a created many more alternative provision free schools. good point and he is, as we know, very experienced in There are some excellent examples in London—for this area. We want to harness the excellent ability of example the TBAP free school in Fulham—and we all schools to improve the performance of a school. are looking more closely at this area to improve alternative He is quite right that there is selection in schools. provision. We are also keen to make sure that provision Many schools are now setting; I know the chief inspector for pupils with SEN and behavioural difficulties in all believes strongly in setting, and I have seen much schools and academies can be well accommodated. evidence that parents support that kind of selection in schools. Lord Lucas (Con): My Lords, we have a policy which we fought extremely hard for—that every child NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 has a right to an academic education. We need a very Motion to Take Note high proportion of our pupils to be academically 2.45 pm excellent. How on earth does a grammar school policy fit with that? Moved by Viscount Hanworth That this House takes note of the impact of the Lord Nash: We have had a very strong drive over Health and Social Care Act 2012 on the current the last six years of improving academic quality in the performance of the National Health Service and its curriculum. I reminded the House recently that sadly, future sustainability. 1181 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[LORDS] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1182

Viscount Hanworth (Lab): My Lords, the very existence A minimum list of the measures proposed that of the NHS is in danger, as is the principle of a should be taken in reforming the NHS may be enumerated universal healthcare provision free at the point of as follows: first, the establishment of the NHS as an delivery. The NHS is being turned into a market-based independent trust; secondly, increased use of joint system. The proponents of these changes envisage ventures between the NHS and the private sector; that the system will be financed by private insurance thirdly, extending the principle of charging; fourthly, a policies that will allow individual policyholders to system of health credits to be supplemented, if so determine the extent of their insurance cover and the desired, by the patients; and, fifthly, a national health level of care to which they will be entitled. The services insurance scheme. will be provided by commercial organisations under In a telling admission, the authors acknowledged the rubric of the NHS. Many of them will be displaying that these reforms could not be achieved in a single the familiar NHS logo in a deceptive manner. These step, for the reason that the public would find them changes have been proceeding gradually for the past unacceptable. Therefore, they accepted that the agenda 25 years, but they have been accelerating under the would have to be fulfilled gradually and in stages. True coalition Government and under the succeeding to this agenda, the current Health Secretary, Jeremy Conservative Government. Hunt, is on record as having called for the direct Notwithstanding the rubric of this debate, which funding of the NHS to be replaced by an insurance will be concerned mainly with the developments since system. I would like to suggest that this agenda has the passing of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, I been firmly in the minds of the Conservative policymakers shall begin by recounting the slow and inexorable from that day to the present. It is on account of its process by which the original intentions of the NHS cunning concealment as much as its gradual realisation have been subverted. It will be helpful to understand that many of us have failed to recognise what has been how the NHS has been brought to a state where it has afoot. become easy prey to the provisions of the 2012 Act. The story goes back further in time. The process of The NHS, at its inception in 1948, was an egalitarian reform—that is, the process of turning the NHS into a system. In the alliterative words of one commentator, business—began in a modest way in 1983 under Margaret it was envisaged that “judges and janitors” would Thatcher,when she commissioned the so-called Griffiths occupy adjacent hospital beds. The NHS was to be report, which led to the introduction of a body of funded by taxation, and no one was to be charged for managers into a system previously run by clinical its services. professionals. It was not until January 1989 that Thatcher The 1948 Act took hospitals into public ownership, announced a major review of the NHS, which aimed, but it left GP surgeries in private ownership and so she said, to extend patient choice and to delegate seemingly allowed GPs the dignity of continuing to be responsibility to where the services were provided. self-employed. Indeed, many of these surgeries were These have continued to be the misleading mantras of located in the private residences of the practitioners. most of the Conservative reorganisations. Latterly, group practices in dedicated buildings have The resulting National Health Service and Community become the norm; and most doctors are now virtually Care Act 1990 created GP fundholding in order to salaried employees of the state. However, the enduring promote a quasi-market within the National Health private ownership of surgeries has allowed them Service. The subsequent Health Authorities Act 1995 increasingly to fall into the hands of commercial abolished the 14 regional health authorities, which enterprises. were replaced by eight regional offices of a newly It has been said that the intentions of the Conservative established NHS Executive. Here, we see another theme Party to privatise the NHS have been hidden in full of the Conservative reorganisations, which claim to view of the rest of us, and it is a wonder that they have promote decentralisation but which actually accomplish so often and for so long escaped our notice. A statement the reverse. of these intentions was contained in a Conservative There were indications that the incoming Labour policy document of 1988, authored jointly by Oliver Administration of 1997 would reverse some of these Letwin and John Redwood and titled Britain’s Biggest reforms. Thus, in 1997-98, GP fundholding was abolished Enterprise: Ideas for Radical Reform of the NHS. by the Labour Government. However, Labour soon Others have drawn attention to this text. The polemic took over from where the Conservatives had left off. In of these authors centred on their unjustifiable claims 2001, primary care trusts were established. In 2002, of administrative inefficiency in the NHS. Their pamphlet NHS foundation trusts were announced by the Health also inveighed against the supposed discomfort of the Secretary, Alan Milburn, and they were established service, which it likened to that of a prison. via the health and social care Act of 2003. These trusts The authors were irked by the absence of such were centred on large hospitals, which were to be given modern facilities as private telephones and television a degree of independence from the Department of sets which, in their opinion, should be available to all Health and from the strategic health authorities, and those who cared to pay for them. They appeared to which were to have a degree of financial autonomy. At dislike the prospect of rubbing shoulders with the the same time, an extensive outsourcing of ancillary masses. To them, the prospect of being placed in a services was encouraged. queue was a clear indication of the dysfunctional That autonomy enabled the trusts to pursue private nature of the system. Their prescription for eliminating finance initiatives, or PFIs, whereby a massive investment queues was to establish a market mechanism which in the NHS was achieved under the Labour would ration medical services by pricing them. Administration. The PFIs have bequeathed a crippling 1183 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1184 legacy of debt to the NHS. Many hospital trusts have The clinicians are typically represented on the CCGs been bled dry by contracts that are demanding exorbitant by a small handful of GPs from the largest and most rates of return for periods of as much as 30 years. A prosperous practices. Smaller practices working under typical hospital refurbishment costing perhaps £9 million increased pressure cannot afford the necessary time to will eventually yield the private contactor as much as be involved. In 2013, the British Medical Journal used £80 million, and it is estimated that the NHS is currently the Freedom of Information Act to discover that more paying £2 billion a year in PFI-related costs. Much of than a third of the GPs on CCGs have conflicts of this income is going offshore in avoidance of taxes. Of interest due to directorships or shares held in private course, one of the purposes of PFI was to shift the companies. Much of the work of the CCGs is already cost of big projects out of government borrowing being undertaken by commissioning support units, figures. The fallacy of that approach to social investment which were due to be outsourced to commercial companies should now be clear to anyone. in 2016. In the campaign that led to the election of 2010 and Perhaps one of the most significant provisions of to the formation of a coalition Government, David the Health and Social Care Act is to be found in Cameron asserted that the NHS would be safe in the Section 75, which has established the requirement for hands of the Conservatives and that there would be no competitive tendering for the provision of services. It further top-down reorganisations. These were flagrant is extraordinary that commercial interests, represented deceptions. Within a short period, the Secretary of by commissioning support units, should have become, State for Health embarked on the preparation of a in some instances, both providers of health services major piece of legislation, which was to become the and the providers of advice on commissioning. Health and Social Care Act 2012. The requirement for tendering has imposed a huge Perhaps that was par for the course. As Professor administrative burden on the NHS, which is entailed Turnberg—my noble friend Lord Turnberg—remarked in the commissioning, invoicing and billing of these in a speech in February this year, there have been eight services. This is wasting money and it is wasting the reorganisations of the NHS in the 16 years that he has time of already overburdened clinicians. It is also been in the Lords; that is, one every two years. However, seriously undermining the provision of services. The as the NHS England chief executive, David Nicholson, introduction of commercial profit-seeking providers famously said in a speech to the NHS Alliance conference, means that services may be pared to the bone. the reforms demanded such a big reorganisation that “you could probably see it from space”. Private clinics are now competing with hospitals to The Bill was a huge document, but we may remind conduct routine surgery on the understanding that, if ourselves of its salient points. To begin with, the complications arise, NHS hospitals will be obliged leading clause has been widely interpreted as relieving to provide the remedy. Hospitals can be financially the Secretary of State of the duty to provide a universal unsettled when cheap and easy functions are subtracted and comprehensive health service in England. That in this manner. Also, if they are teaching hospitals, the duty has devolved on to the newly created NHS England experience of routine operations is denied to trainee health executive. This interpretation of the clause is doctors. debatable. Nevertheless, it has allowed the current There have also been significant commercial inroads Secretary of State to criticise the NHS when things into general practice, where there is now a serious have gone wrong, instead of taking the blame himself. shortfall in the number of GPs. The response of NHS Under the 2012 Act, NHS hospitals are allowed to England to the resignations and retirements of the make up to 49% of their money from private patients. members of a group practice has been to put the Presumably, this allowance was intended as a means of services out to tender under a so-called APMS contract, alleviating the financial problems of the hospitals. The with a limited five-year term. Such contracts are liable Act abolished the primary care trusts and the regional to be taken by commercial enterprises motivated by health authorities, and replaced them with clinical profit and intent on saving costs. The short-term nature commissioning groups, or CCGs, which now control a of the contracts discourages investment, and the cost- large proportion of the NHS budget and commission saving motive results in inadequate levels of staffing, local services. with peripatetic locum doctors in place of resident The Act proposed that general practitioners and GPs. The costs and risks of tendering mean that other health professionals should be given the independent GPs will struggle to compete with larger responsibility for commissioning the majority of health healthcare corporations. services. However, that is not what has happened; nor Why are politicians of all parties and senior civil does it seem to have been what was truly intended. The servants so attracted to the prospect of the commercial CCGs are told what they can and cannot do by the provision of health services? In answer to this, I should bureaucrats of NHS England, which is the newly observe that many of them have strong affiliations to styled NHS Executive, and by its secretive local area private health that often entail pecuniary interests. teams. They have imposed stringent controls on what Simon Stevens, the current chief executive officer of can be provided, and those controls have become NHS England, spent 10 years as a senior executive in increasingly restrictive in consequence of the financial UnitedHealthcare, which is the biggest multinational exigencies of the NHS. Notwithstanding the centralised healthcare corporation in the United States. I should and hierarchical control that it has imposed, this also observe that, with Andy Burnham as a notable reorganisation has created a so-called postcode lottery exception, the majority of former Secretaries of State in the provision of services, of which the availability for Health have financial interests in commercial now varies widely across the regions. healthcare. 1185 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[LORDS] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1186

[VISCOUNT HANWORTH] between the commissioning function and the provider The conditions are now in place for a wholescale function. I make no bones about the fact that it is takeover of the NHS by commercial enterprises. In designed to create a stronger commissioning structure. spite of numerous withdrawals of the private sector Where I agree with the noble Viscount is that that is as due to unprofitability attributed to the exigencies of yet an unfinished task. the NHS finances, and in spite of some outstanding There is a constant pressure within the National cases of fraud and malfeasance among private providers, Health Service for the providers to control the structure it appears that the proportion of the NHS budget of activity and for commissioners, not independently, devoted to purchasing from private providers is increasing to use their budgetary and statutory powers to determine apace. Some commercial enterprises, such as Serco what is in the best interests of patients. That actually is and UnitedHealthcare, have pulled out of providing what is in the Bill. It does not say that there has to be medical services to patients, leaving behind them a compulsory competitive tendering. It does not tell the wake of disorganisation. The overstretched NHS has commissioners how they should go about it in terms had to pick up the pieces. Nevertheless, the accounts of the use or otherwise of competition. What it says is provided by the Department of Health in July of this that they have to use their powers in order to deliver year have shown that 7.3% of total NHS expenditure what is in the best interests of patients, and if there is in 2014-15 went to private providers, which represents something that does not involve competition, they are an increase of 1.2% over the previous year. This is the entirely at liberty under the statute to do exactly that. biggest annual rise in both absolute and percentage terms since 2006. Secondly, what did the Health and Social Care Act Meanwhile,so-called sustainability and transformation not do? It did not introduce competition. There is a plans are being demanded from local NHS areas by reason why the noble Viscount referred to 2006 as the NHS England. These are aimed at saving large sums starting point for his analysis of private sector activity of money, while improving the quality of healthcare. on outsourcing in the National Health Service. It was It has become abundantly clear that such plans amount in 2006 that the previous Labour Government introduced to dangerous fallacies. They have already been widely it. PFI is the largest element of privatisation, and there discredited. They would lead to widespread closures is nothing in the 2012 Act that requires any extension and amalgamations of hospitals, and they would strip of privatisation. On the contrary, it did away with the the NHS bare. I beg to move. past Labour Government’s ability under the law to discriminate in favour of the private sector. There is no potential to do that. The only reason why any 3.01 pm commissioner should use the private sector is because Lord Lansley (Con): My Lords, I am sure that we it would provide a better service and at a lower cost. are grateful to the noble Viscount for initiating the Actually, we shifted the structure of “any qualified debate. I hope that the debate will be more directed provider”—which is not in the Act—from a cost basis towards the future of the National Health Service, its to a quality basis; it has to provide a better quality and sustainability and how it can achieve improving quality. they are on the same tariffs. I do not, therefore, propose to examine in detail the many assertions made in the noble Viscount’s speech, What the Act also did not do is create deficits in the but I put on record that I think there were many errors National Health Service. I am proud of the fact that, in what he had to say about the past. in the three years during which I was responsible for On one particular point, from my personal point of the financial situation in the National Health Service, view, I will just say this. As the Conservative Party’s it was in surplus all that time and, indeed, not on a lead spokesman on health for more than nine years, I declining trend. The number of trusts in deficit in am proud that, with David Cameron’s active support, 2013-14 was proportionately the same as in 2009-10. we made it very clear that we would not at any point There are subsequent reasons why the NHS has shifted countenance a shift away from the NHS as a into financial deficit. It is partly to do with the Francis comprehensive, universal service, available free at the report, which came after I ceased to be Secretary of point of use and funded out of general taxation. I am State. It is not that it was not a good report, but the also proud that, in the midst of the financial imperatives response to it focused on the extension of staffing and that we faced in 2010, he and I, together with our measuring staffing, with the consequent impact on Liberal Democrat colleagues in coalition, gave the agency costs not least, rather than a focus on outcomes. NHS the priority that it needed and increased its I am proud of the fact that the outcomes framework budget in real terms through the last Parliament. for the National Health Service and a focus on quality and outcomes were at the heart of the reform process— What did the Health and Social Care Act set out to and should be, and often still is not. Too often, the do? It was and has been a structural change. It was debate about the National Health Service is completely founded on a set of principles that were not new to the obsessed with inputs and activity levels, and far too National Health Service at all. Over the preceding little focused on outcomes. We have an outcomes 20 years, pretty much every Secretary of State agreed, framework and we should focus on it. with the exception of Frank Dobson—the noble Viscount in his speech was at least even-handed in condemning What do we need to do in the future? We should past Labour Governments and coalitions as well as not, in my view, revert to monopoly. Sustainability the Conservative Party—that we needed to devolve and transformation plans, while they are rightly the responsibility within the National Health Service, to product of collective and collaborative working, should give greater freedoms to providers to promote patient not attempt to create monopolistic structures in the choice and indeed to be very clear about the distinction NHS because a monopoly in the NHS would do 1187 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1188 exactly the same thing as it does anywhere, which is to these changes in the face of huge financial and operational pretend, through offering short-term benefits, to provide pressures? To answer that question it is important to long-term benefits but actually to entrench provider highlight some key factors. First, whatever their rights interests as opposed to the patient interests. We should and wrongs, the geography of clinical commissioning not restrict choice and we should not end clinical groups is not strategic. Simply put, there are considerably commissioning. Weshould not allow the commissioning more CCGs—some 209—than there are hospitals, of function and the provider function to be submerged which there are just over 150. That is not helpful. Such into one organisation; they are distinct and separate, fragmentation militates against strategic planning and and the conflict of role between those two should not decision-making. be confused. As to sustainability and transformation Secondly, the more market-based system that plans, we should not allow them to become what they competition and the introduction of foundation trusts were back in 2006, when there were substantial deficits, by successive Governments heralded may have been albeit at a time of rising resources. We should not okay during times of plenty, but during a period of allow them to be an effort to try to constrain demand unprecedented austerity, coupled with a major growth by restricting supply, which is what tended to happen in demand, it has proved much harder to sustain. Each back in those days. trust fights hard to protect its own position, making What we need is more integration, and the Act led, collaborative working and the significant shifting of through health and well-being boards and the role of resources much harder. local government and its ancillary additional functions Thirdly, in practice it has proved very hard for GPs on public health, to a real opportunity for greater to undertake the role envisaged for them of fundamentally integration. The commissioning function should involve reshaping the services provided by hospitals for the local government and the NHS very much working benefit of their patients. Too often they have been together. One of the principal reasons for the deficits overwhelmed by rising demand, making effective is the lack of reform in social care, and we should collaboration between GPs and hospital consultants, implement Dilnot. As I have said in this House, there which can be hard at the best of times, a distant dream. were reasons why it was not done, which I do not accept. It should have been done, it still must be done The simple truth is that there is not enough money and it should form part of an input to social care. in the system to do all the things being asked of the Finally, we must acknowledge the necessity for the health and social care system at a time of rapidly NHS to have the resources it needs for the future. rising demand from a growing and ageing population— Time does not permit me to explain all that, but we and that is before we come to the newest policy goal of never would have anticipated in 2010 that we would go seven-day working. We would all like to see that in an for a full decade with a less than 1% real-terms increase ideal world, but it must be properly resourced and year by year. We have to accept that the sustainability planned if it is ever to become a reality. The current of the NHS requires resources for the NHS and for approach of trying to ram it through on resources that social care on a scale that is not presently anticipated are not really adequate for five-day working, let alone in the current spending review. seven, is clearly not viable. There has been no shortage of recent reports 3.09 pm demonstrating the parlous state of NHS finances. Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD): My Lords, I Reports from NHS Improvement, the King’s Fund, congratulate the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, on Nuffield Trust, the Public Accounts Committee and securing this vital debate. The starting point for our others have all shown rapidly declining financial debate is the impact of the 2012 Act—legislation performance and an alarming scale of deficits. In short, which is etched on the memory of many in this Chamber, the NHS ended 2015-16 with an aggregate deficit of and I suspect none more so than the noble Lord, Lord some £1.85 billion—a threefold increase on the previous Lansley, who has just spoken. It was the first Bill I was year and the largest deficit in NHS history. actively involved in after joining this Chamber and, It is not at all clear how the £22 billion funding my goodness me, it felt like a baptism of fire. It is fair shortfall by 2020 will be achieved. When resources and to say that it was a highly charged and contentious demand are so out of kilter, what is urgently needed is piece of legislation. However, rather than rehearse the a system-wide response, with system-wide thinking at heated arguments again, today I will focus primarily its very core. This means putting far greater emphasis on how the system has responded to the changes and on geography—or place-shaping, as it is sometimes what it means for the future. called—and, in essence, thinking in terms of local We probably all agree that there is no appetite for health economies rather than in terms of individual further structural reform, and I doubt whether there institutions or bricks and mortar. That system-wide will be in the years ahead. Therefore, the current thinking needs to be based on trust, collaboration, immense problems of sustainability will need to be innovation and sophisticated networking—in short, resolved within the current architecture. This will require the key ingredients of a joined-up response. huge ingenuity, creativity, cultural and behavioural In fairness, the Five Year Forward View—widely change, and transformed styles of leadership at both regarded as an excellent document setting out a long-term national and local level, along with very different vision—coupled with the planning guidance are both financial incentives. attempting to do just that. We have recently had the As we have heard, the 2012 Act introduced major introduction of the five-year sustainability and structural changes—I am not going to run through transformation plan, which highlights the need for them again—but how has the system responded to systemic leadership and a truly place-based plan, with 1189 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[LORDS] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1190

[BARONESS TYLER OF ENFIELD] We know that one of the biggest challenges facing local leaders, including from local government, coming the NHS is the change in the nature of the population. together and developing a shared vision of what will Those changes in the population, and therefore the work best for the local community. patient profile, were not addressed in this legislation, This is a welcome shift in emphasis towards which was about structures. I am the last person to say collaboration rather than competition in the way NHS that structures do not matter, but in the National services are planned, even if it is being done somewhat Health Service people work with what they are given. by stealth. It also provides a much-needed opportunity They have to spend so much time trying to sort out to plan for a health service focused far more on people what the legislation means in terms of structures and living in the community with long-term conditions who is responsible for this, that and the other that they rather than on treating illness in hospitals. have not been tackling the issues that really affect patient care. The country is divided into 44 sustainability and transformation footprints, as they are being called. I am concerned particularly, as the Minister will Getting the geography right is essential, and they not be surprised to hear, about the integration of the should have the strategic scale to look at major different sectors—the integration of the National Health reconfigurations of services, including shifting resources Service with social care—which is one of the real from the acute sector into primary care, community priorities at the moment. They are two totally different care and, critically, social care—something that the systems and the changes in the Act have not enabled smaller CCGs clearly struggle to do. and helped those two systems to work more closely The approach feels right if the focus can be on far together. It is a real problem. There are many other greater integration, collaboration and system-wide problems but I am leaving it to other people to talk thinking. It is a real concern that the general mood music about them. I will concentrate on this issue. around these plans, due to be published in October, is What has happened is that there has been a greater negative at the moment. Wehave had reports of excessive concentration on trying to sort out hospital provision, secrecy, lack of local engagement and a strong emphasis and subsequent government policies have added to the on preventing immediate financial collapse at the expense total inability properly to deal with social care. It is of proper long-term thinking and planning towards social care that is absolutely critical to hospitals in long-term sustainability. terms of bed blocking, but also to the most vulnerable: A recent statement from the chief executive of the the elderly and people with disabilities. Their voice is King’s Fund, commenting on the plans, was blunt. not as loud as other people’s in the system—it would He said: not be, for obvious reasons—and their ability to have “Almost all the additional funding provided by the government choice and quality of care differs hugely across this this year is being used to reduce deficits in acute hospitals, leaving country. little if any to invest in services outside hospital. Sustainability I could weep over the Government not having and transformation plans will not be credible unless they demonstrate worked more effectively across government on this how money and staff for these services will be found”. issue. The idea that 40% cuts in local government—when Similarly, a recent Nuffield Trust report concluded the so much of local government money is spent either on same thing. It had in it the memorable phrase that we the elderly or on children—would not affect social would have to “preserve the NHS in aspic”—meaning care and not have consequent effects on the NHS, and having to halt any further advancement in healthcare not to have worked that out before the Government quality and new treatment. initiated certain policies, is risible. The final sentence of that report reads: As I uncovered in written PQs, the position is “The political acceptability of that—following a Brexit campaign particularly difficult in the north-east—I suspect the which highlighted a potential £350 million for the NHS a week—is highly questionable”. Minister knows what I am going to say. I applaud the Prime Minister’s ambition that no area should feel left That is putting it mildly. We must have an honest behind and that no individuals should feel that they debate which recognises that the service transformation do not have an equal opportunity to prosper. But look needed for a health service fit for the future will take at what has happened and what is happening in the much longer than one Parliament, must be properly north-east. The actions that the Government have resourced, even if that means raising extra taxation, taken have exacerbated the problems and not eased and, critically, have the financial incentives which them. encourage and reward collaboration and system-wide thinking. Otherwise we will simply limp from one Poverty affects health. We should not need to say it crisis to another, and that is to no one’s benefit. but we still need to. The incredible reports from Marmot and so on show us just how much they affect health. In the north-east we have many more people who do not 3.17 pm have the financial means to assist their own healthcare, Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab): My Lords, it so we have a much higher proportion of the population is a pleasure to be involved in today’s debate, although who are dependent on public subsidy in social care. it is a troubling area of policy. The Minister has heard As the Minister knows, I uncovered through these me on this before. The introduction of this legislation Parliamentary Questions that we have the highest and the way that things have gone have not been a proportion of people who are reliant on public funding happy tale for the National Health Service—and, most for their care needs and the lowest ability to raise importantly, for too many patients who look to the money in council tax because of the low value of National Health Service and rely on it. housing. 1191 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1192

The Government took a decision that one of the greater adoption of innovation throughout the system? main ways of further funding social care would be Are we able to demonstrate that the adoption of through a 2% levy. When that happened, not a single innovation at scale and pace, through a variety of health authority in the north-east gained sufficient money economies, is providing clinical outcomes for patients from the 2% levy even to meet the rise in the minimum availing themselves of NHS facilities? wage that the Chancellor announced on the same day. Beyond the question of research, there is the question Whereas some authorities—I am told—have as a little of education and training, and once again new arm’s- as 1%, 2% or 3% of their social care users who are length bodies, by way of Health Education England, reliant on public funds, in South Tyneside, as one were established as part of the Act. There was also a example, 89% of those who are dependent on social duty placed on the Secretary of State for Health to care rely on public funding. That authority got some ensure that education was promoted and that we £794,000 from the 2% increase and it nowhere near developed a workforce fit for purpose, recognising covered the costs in the social care sector of the over time that the changing demographics of the minimum wage. national population availing themselves of NHS services There is also, as the Minister knows, a crisis among and the change in the nature of disease that the NHS the private sector providers of residential social care would have to deal with, with more chronic disease, because they are not getting enough money. The would require a much more flexible workforce. We Government have made a small attempt to alleviate need the ability for those committing themselves to a that. But I am saying to the Minister that he really has professional career as healthcare professionals to be to persuade his colleagues that if they want to get provided with the opportunities not only to establish anywhere near meeting the Prime Minister’s ambitions, themselves at the beginning of their careers but also to there has to be an urgent national review of how they adapt and change over time to ensure that they can fund social care and not to push it on to impoverished address the changing needs of our fellow citizens and people in local authorities that have taken the cuts and the NHS itself. do not have the council tax base that other parts of the country do. This is unfair, it is unequal and it has to How successful has Health Education England been change. in achieving those objectives? These were important new obligations and duties on the Secretary of State that provided excellent opportunities to transform the 3.24 pm workforce to ensure that it was better able to deliver Lord Kakkar (CB): My Lords, I join in thanking the changing needs of the NHS. the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, for having secured As part of the discussion during the passage of the this important debate and in so doing declare my own Bill, there was much emphasis on ensuring early post- interests as chairman of University College London legislative scrutiny of the legislation to ensure that Partners, professor of surgery at University College these important objectives were established. I know London and a member of your Lordships’ House that in 2014 the Department of Health did undertake ad hoc Select Committee for this Session on NHS some post-legislative scrutiny. The outcome of that sustainability. demonstrated that the principal provisions of the Act We have heard that the Health and Social Care Act had indeed been established, but beyond that what has 2012 introduced new structures and new organisations been achieved by way of the anticipated outcomes in to assist in both the commissioning and the delivery of those two important areas? healthcare, but it also put on the Secretary of State for Health, for the first time, new duties with regard to We have also heard in this important debate about research, education and training in the National Health integrated care and how so much of the purpose of Service. The research function is vitally important the original Act was to ensure that integrated care because it is with research and innovation that we are could be delivered. This is a vital objective. The fact able to develop the novel therapies and technologies we will see the need to manage so much more chronic that will over time transform healthcare. The duty of disease over time in the National Health Service demands the Secretary of State to ensure that this is promoted a different approach to the delivery of care, focused no throughout the restructured National Health Service— longer on the boundaries of individual institutions ensuring that hospital trusts, primary care and all the but on understanding the pathways that the large other arm’s-length bodies were sensitive to this numbers of patients with chronic disease will have to requirement—is vital. The adoption of innovation follow—pathways that will require interaction with will provide the opportunities as we move forward for the hospital sector and with highly specialist centres at more precision medicine and, as a result of that, to some times during their disease’s natural history but ensure that personalised medicine will transform the predominantly in the community. prospects for our fellow citizens and hopefully drive One of the concerns raised during the Bill’s passage improved clinical outcomes delivered more effectively through your Lordships’ House was whether the bodies and efficiently throughout the entire NHS. charged with regulation of the healthcare system were Can the Minister say what assessment has been in a position to determine the quality outcomes achieved made, since the passage of the Act, with regard to this through true integrated care, rather than care delivered duty of the Secretary of State? Has the NHS as a in institutions. I ask the Minister what assessment the whole become more effective and efficient at delivering Department of Health has made of the ability of the theresearchagenda?Hastheperformanceof organisations Care Quality Commission and NHS Improvement to within the NHS with regard to clinical research improved? assess outcomes of integrated care packages delivered As a result of increased research activity, have we seen across hospital and community boundaries, and their 1193 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[LORDS] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1194

[LORD KAKKAR] While NHS care is supposed to be free at the point performance in terms of their clinical effectiveness of use, this latest increase means patients now cover and their value to the health economy across those 26% of their NHS dentistry costs—up by more than a institutional boundaries.As we move to greater integrated third compared with a decade ago. If this trend continues care, it is vital that we understand that the systems we it will take just 15 years before patients pay for most of currently have in place are adapting themselves to their treatment. This is set against the backdrop of ensure they can assess how quality and efficiency are £170 million of NHS dentistry funding having been delivered beyond institutions and in such a way that cut by the Government since 2010, with patient charges the investment of valuable healthcare resources in new increasingly used to make up the shortfall. models of care always delivers the very best for our Neglecting oral health puts pressure on not only patients. our general practitioners but our hospitals. The number We have also heard in this important debate about of people going to A&E with emergency dental problems the vital need to explore further the link between has been rising sharply and tens of thousands of healthcare and social care. Sir Cyril Chantler, a people continue to be admitted for scheduled tooth distinguished clinician, in a letter to the Daily Telegraph extractions. It is frankly a scandal that tooth extractions last month reflected on the fact that in the United under general anaesthesia remain the number one Kingdom—in England—it is easy to get into hospital reason for hospital admissions in young children, with and very difficult to get out. One of the best-performing 160 youngsters and their parents going through this countries for healthcare in Europe is the Netherlands, painful and stressful procedure, which is not without where it is very difficult to get into hospital because its risks, every day. The cost of these completely there is such an emphasis on well-integrated care in preventable treatments has gone up by more than the community prior to the hospital stage that they 60% in the past four years and now stands at £35 million save a huge amount of resource by keeping patients in a year. Again, it is the kind of avoidable pressure our the community. struggling hospitals could really do without. We simply In assessing the impact of the Health and Social cannot continue to treat oral health as separate and Care Act and the opportunities avoided by it, what has inferior to other areas of health, neglecting prevention been demonstrated to date is the need to improve the and reducing NHS dentistry funding while topping it collective and integrated nature of care in the community up with inflated patient charges. It is not only bad for prior to hospital admission to ensure that patients people’s dental and general health; it is also a false might be best managed in the community, rather than economy that puts unnecessary strain on our GPs and admitted to institutions. hospitals. It is an important part of our health service which we must not overlook when discussing the 3.33 pm long-term sustainability of the NHS. Lord Colwyn (Con): My Lords, I declare my interest as a retired dental surgeon and a fellow of the British 3.37 pm Dental Association. I thank the noble Viscount, Lord Lord Rea (Lab): My Lords, I thank my noble friend Hanworth, for securing this debate. Although I shall Lord Hanworth for bringing this important topic need to read his speech in Hansard to make full sense forward. of it, he gives me time to make a brief intervention to Before the 2010 election David Cameron specifically remind noble Lords of the importance to the long-term ruled out “a disruptive top-down reorganisation”, but sustainability of the NHS of improving the nation’s this is what the Act has proved to be. It was also oral health and ensuring good dental care. largely unnecessary: many of the changes brought We were reminded of this very starkly earlier this about by the Act, particularly the beneficial ones—and, week when the front page of the Times and other yes, there are quite a few—could have been achieved newspapers reported the results of the research carried without new primary legislation. In my seven minutes, out by the British Dental Association, showing that I will concentrate on public health and prevention, 600,000 people a year seek help with toothache from which is where my current involvement with health lies. their doctors—their general medical practitioners—who Twenty-three years after retiring from NHS clinical are neither qualified nor set up to deal with dental practice, I declare an interest as honorary president of issues. This puts unnecessary pressure on the system, the UK Health Forum, an independent but publicly costing the NHS at least £26 million a year and funded body representing some 60 national organisations wasting GPs’ time, resulting in longer waits for people with an interest in “upstream” prevention of non- whom they can really help. communicable disease—the “causes of the causes”. People are seeking a free GP appointment instead The Government have repeatedly emphasised the of going to see a dentist because of the chronic importance of prevention as the way to approach our underfunding of NHS dentistry and constantly increasing current increasing load of chronic non-communicable dental patient charges. The fees for NHS dental treatment disease. The Five Year Forward View, whose findings continue to rise much faster than inflation and people’s have been accepted by the Government, referred to the earnings, having gone up by 5% this year and increasing work of Derek Wanless, who warned some 15 years by a further 5% next year. I have been arguing that this ago that unless the country took prevention seriously unprecedented increase will discourage patients who we would be faced with a sharply rising burden of most need to see the dentist from going to see one, but avoidable illness. The Five Year Forward View points this latest research clearly shows that it also puts an out that that warning has not been heeded and that avoidable burden on the rest of the already-strained the NHS is, NHS. “on the hook for the consequences”, 1195 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1196 with an increasing burden of largely preventable chronic both good and bad practices. I commend its excellent illness that can be expensively treated or cared for but report—it should have a green cover but in the Printed mostly not cured. So I will concentrate on the sections Paper Office it has a white one—to the Minister and of the 2012 Act which concern public health and the hope he will be able to say that the Government will reduction of social inequalities which are at the heart accept its recommendations and enact them in full. of any policy to improve the health of the population. Theresa May pointed out, in her first speech as 3.45 pm Prime Minister, the “burning injustices” of the wide gap in health between the highest and the lowest Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab): My Lords, I too thank socioeconomic groups of the population. As the noble my noble friend for bringing forward this important Lord, Lord Prior, knows very well, this gap has been debate, and I congratulate him on getting the time. extensively studied by Sir Michael Marmot and his I always thought that the best thing about the colleagues at UCL. They have shown that the mortality Health and Social Care Act was its title. I was not rates and incidence of most diseases—particularly alone in thinking that. It gave us hope that, at long those which form the main burden on health services last, the issue of social care would be put on a par with today—are consistently related to social status across health in the delivery of services. Over the many years the board. The concept of the social determinants of that I have been concerned with these issues, I have health, first described in detail by Michael Marmot, is lost track of the number of times I have heard people now recognised worldwide as basic to public health say, “You cannot run a patient-focused NHS without thinking. The 2012 Act includes changes in the provision regard to the whole patient experience”, which of of public health services that are potentially beneficial. course includes their experience of social care. Admission, Among measures that were given a guarded welcome discharge,post-discharge and follow-up are all inextricably by public health professionals in local government was entwined, especially for those with long-term conditions. the transfer of many public health functions from So we had high hopes from that title and were repeatedly PCTs to local authorities. This change was logical, assured that the Government understood the importance since local authorities have always been involved in of social care, that the new arrangements would ensure some important public health activities. I could list collaboration and co-operation between health and other desirable changes related to the wider determinants social care providers, and that adequate funding would of health, but it would take too long in a time-limited be provided to local authorities to ensure that their debate. obligations could be met. The concern of public health professionals about Like many noble Lords, I had major misgivings the move to local authorities was twofold: would the about the disruption that the Health and Social Care rearranged services be properly funded and would the Bill would cause and the money it would cost—especially status and independence of public health professionals as the promise had been made that there would be no within local authorities be assured? As noble Lords top-down reorganisation of the NHS, as my noble know, these concerns have been more than justified. friend Lord Rea has reminded us. The Bill appeared The House of Commons Select Committee on Health’s to presage not just a top-down but a bottom-up report Public Health Post-2013, published just a week reorganisation. However, the idea of better integration ago, states: certainly appealed to me. In 40 years of working in this area, I have noticed two things repeatedly. First, “There is a growing mismatch between spending on public health”, there is the absolute inability of any patient of any kind to understand the lack of integration, or sometimes which is set to reduce, the lack of communication, between the two services. “and the significance attached to prevention in the NHS 5 Year Patients will always say, “But I don’t understand—why Forward View”. are they so different? Why don’t they talk to each In fact the ring-fenced levels of local authority funding other?”. Secondly, there is the repeated response of for public health were cut by £200 million last year, a any professional involved in delivering patient care move that was questioned in the House at the time by that more integration and co-operation is not only my noble friend Lord Hunt. This funding is on a desirable but essential. So the test which I now apply steady downward trend until 2020, and will then have to the Act is how we are doing on integration. fallen in real terms by 25% since 2013. In addition, The Government were warned at the time that their overall central government funding allocations for proposals for structural reform were going too far, too local authorities have been cut drastically since 2012, fast. So far as social care is concerned, it is perhaps not as everyone knows, affecting many local authority fast and far enough. We have seen a social care system services which have a public health component. The which is neither well funded nor sustainable and which, Commons Select Committee on Health’sreport concludes: as a consequence, contributes to the problems in the “Cuts to public health are a false economy. The Government NHS that so many noble Lords have mentioned. Two must commit to protecting funding for public health. Not to do weeks ago, I visited an elderly friend in an acute ward. so will have negative consequences for current and future generations She had been ready for discharge for two full weeks and risks widening health inequalities”. but was unable to be discharged because of the lack of These are strong words for a Select Committee. social care provision. Eight more people in the ward The committee reports many other concerns about she occupied were in the same position. the functioning of the new arrangements and makes A well-funded and sustainable social care system useful suggestions about how difficulties can be overcome, underpins a sustainable NHS. Delayed discharge is often using verbatim reports from witnesses describing possibly the most pressing concern for the NHS and 1197 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[LORDS] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1198

[BARONESS PITKEATHLEY] noble Lord, Lord Patel. Last week, I came out of the Department of Health at present. It is inextricably St Thomas’ Hospital, where I had had a TAVI—an linked to rising social care demand, caused by the operation on a heart valve—to sit down to the backlog greatest social and political challenge of our time: the of papers from the committee. The first paper I picked ageing population. That ageing population is of course up said quite clearly that unnecessary treatments should also a triumph and we should celebrate it, but we be eliminated—for example, TAVIs, which are completely cannot ignore the strain that it puts on our provision ineffective. All I can say is, in that case I have had the of health and social care services. Social care is the mother and father of a placebo effect. largest area of spending at local level and has been hit I mention this simply to say that in the general hardbycentralgovernment-enforcedausterity.Meanwhile, gloom that so easily pervades debates on our health demand for social care is of course rising; it is predicted service, we can forget what it is really like. My experience to increase by 44% by 2030. More people are living was marvellous—clinical marvellousness, caring longer with more complex, long-term conditions that marvellousness—and I was in and out, after a general require a higher level of expertise and intervention. anaesthetic, within three days. So let us not play down The Nuffield Trust has estimated that by 2020, there what our health service is delivering. It is because it will be a funding gap in adult social care of between delivers these things that it is so precious and our £2 billion and £2.7 billion, despite the social care people will never let it go. precept and the better care fund. I hope the Minister will not use the better care fund I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Hanworth and the precept as a panacea, a cover-all, for these for introducing this debate. I think he sometimes got a difficulties because they are already inadequate and little carried away with his own rhetoric. The moment do not compensate for the 37,000 social care beds at which he accused the party opposite of cunning which will be lost before 2020 nor for the introduction concealment by putting their proposals in a pamphlet of the national living wage. struck me as one example. In general, I cannot share his view of the 2012 Act and its consequences any The Health Select Committee conducted an inquiry more than I can share that of the Secretary of State into the impact of the spending review on health and who introduced it. My take is that only three years social care, and the chair,Dr Sarah Wollaston, concluded: have gone by since its provisions came into force and it “Historical cuts to social care funding have now exhausted the is clearly too early to form any sort of verdict, particularly opportunities for significant further efficiencies in this area. Increasing numbers of people with genuine social care needs are no longer since there is a much more important effect, which is receiving the care they need because of a lack of funding. This the amount of spending that is taking place and the not only causes considerable distress to these individuals and staff and resources available. It is far too early. their families but results in additional costs to the NHS. We are concerned about the effect of additional funding streams for However, Sir Muir Gray of Oxford University, a social care not arriving until later in the Parliament”. most distinguished witness who appeared before our Will the Minister say when additional funds will be committee on Tuesday, said: achieved and when they will arrive, and will he give us “I speak as a veteran of 22 re-organisations, most of which his estimate of how they are going to cope with many have made no difference at all”. of these problems? I remind him that ADASS calculates I expect that this one will be broadly the same. Talking that the sector will need £1 billion per year just to to people who understand, work in and know the allow it to stand still and that most local authorities work of the health service, there is a consensus that it say that they will have to spend the whole of their works not because of the Ozymandian bureaucracies budgets on social care within five years or so. erected by Governments—and endorsed by Parliaments, I have been disappointed in my hopes for social let us remember—but in spite of these bureaucracies, care from the Act, but I have also been disappointed in which mostly serve only to add cost and complexity. my hopes for the strengthening of the patient voice which was promised. Local Healthwatch and local I will say a word or two about the sustainability of health and well-being board organisations have been the health service. This language has become embedded patchy, as we warned the Government at the time that in all sorts of words. We even have sustainability and they would be,while the disempowerment of Healthwatch transformation plans—words which fill me with gloom England by denying its independence and clipping its at their lack of transparency. The trouble with wings has not been an edifying spectacle. sustainability is that it suggests black or white. We either have a health service that works or a health As far as social care and integration is concerned, service that has collapsed, in which case we have to there are some excellent examples of good practice, as have a new system: private healthcare as in America, a the Prime Minister acknowledged yesterday, but they Bismarckian system as in Germany, or whatever. But, are far too few and, as she also said, further review is of course, it is not like that at all. necessary. I was very pleased to hear her say that at PMQs yesterday. I hope the Minister, who is so First, we have to ask what it is about the health knowledgeable on this topic, will assure us that this review service that has to be sustained. A phrase that is will take place soon, as it could not be more urgent. trotted out as if it were obvious the whole time is, “free at the point of use”. We do not have a health service that is free at the point of use. Lots of healthcare is 3.52 pm paid for, as the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, made clear Lord Lipsey (Lab): My Lords, like the noble Lord, in his speech on dentistry.We have north of £500 million Lord Kakkar, I sit on the Select Committee on the of prescription charges—which, incidentally,are becoming sustainability of the health service, chaired by the quite a barrier to some people taking the care they 1199 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1200 need—for across-the-counter medicines. John Appleby reorganisations has really benefited patients in the of the Nuffield Trust suggested to the committee that end, and this was a particularly expensive one. One private spending on health in this country amounted wonders how many treatments could have been paid to 1.5% of GDP. It is not as big as public spending, for by the £1 billion redundancy bill alone. but it is a pretty big chunk. So let us be clear that there The stated purpose was to “liberate” the health is a wide range of “free at the point of consumption”. service. Well, it certainly liberated a lot of money Another phrase is “a national health service”. We which is now in the pockets of many private providers do not have a national health service. The provision of who have come into the health service since 2012. I am specific treatments varies hugely from place to place, not saying that I believe any participation of private in a way that is very difficult to account for—factors companies is in itself a bad thing—of course not—if of fourfold and even tenfold, as Sir Muir explained to they can provide better services at an equal or smaller our committee. Different social classes get widely different cost to the public purse than that offered by NHS provision and as a result have widely different expectations providers. The primary principle must always be that of life. For example, in some areas 78% of people die healthcare is, as far as possible, free at the point of at home and in others 46%; that is the range of need and cost effective to all of us taxpayers. The experience. problem is that we are now seeing evidence that the There is a more sensible wayof looking at sustainability. criteria for whether we need the services or not, and Somehow or other,the supply and demand for healthcare therefore whether we get them, are being tightened in has to be balanced—that is inevitable. The main factor both health and, particularly, social care, as some affecting supply is how much money the Government, services close down and the rest try to provide for a and by extension society—taxpayers—are prepared to growing and ageing population, and pay for healthcare raise to pay for it. Healthcare is a menu with prices price inflation. and we can imagine a health service in which people can choose only thin gruel and one which provides Of course, one cannot attribute all the cost inflation caviar for all. It depends almost entirely on how much to the profits made by privatised services. Some of it is money people are prepared to put in. attributable to the increasing cost of the research that The real question is therefore not whether we have a underpins the development of wonderful new drugs health service that is sustainable, but what kind of and treatments. That of course is something that I, health service we want. When we have decided what like the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, welcome, although we want, are we prepared to pay for all of it, some of there is always room for effective price negotiation at a it, or rather little of it? Importantly, how can we get national level. However, the fact remains that the NHS the maximum of what we want for the minimum we is struggling in a way that we have not seen before, and put in? I am afraid that those people who think there is this is surely unsustainable. The NHS budget for this a magic wand that can be waved and surgeons can Parliament, as we heard from my noble friend Lady double the number of operations they do in five Tyler of Enfield, will be short of £22 billion by 2020, minutes are barking up the wrong tree. From these and the solutions outlined in the Five Year Forward core questions, the 2012 Act was essentially a distraction. View are not yet showing convincing results. It is right I hope your Lordships’ committee may do a little that all services are scrutinised as to their efficient use better. of money, and I understand that millions could be saved if the least efficient took several leaves out of the books of the most efficient. However, as with many 3.59 pm other things, you need money up front in order to save Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, I thank the costs down the line, especially if you are going to replace noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, for initiating this face-to-face consultations with digital communications debate, and the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, for what he and home testing kits. said at the beginning of his remarks. I think we all have a great deal to thank the NHS for and we should On top of that, the Government promise £8 billion always remember that. extra for the seven-day NHS, which even Simon Stevens There is no doubt that the 2012 Act was the biggest says is not enough. A majority of acute hospital trusts reorganisation the NHS has ever seen. It was also are in deficit, and many GP practices are ceasing to probably the most controversial. It was opposed by take new patients because of unacceptable waiting the British Medical Association, the Royal College of times for appointments. Everyone knows how concerned Nursing, the Royal College of Midwives and the Royal the junior doctors are about all this. Although I believe College of General Practitioners. While accepting the that the planned series of five-day strikes should not principle that doctors should have a role in commissioning, go ahead without a further ballot of all BMA members, the Royal College of Surgeons and the Royal College this historic reaction of the doctors to government of Physicians were highly critical of the proposed policy does indicate that the dispute is not just about mode of implementation. the detail of their weekend pay or training structures. They are worried about the survival of the NHS as we I would judge the success of the Act by whether know it. Clearly, they have made their judgment about it minimised the health inequalities in this country, the effects of the 2012 Act. whether it treated physical and mental health equally, and whether it made health and social care sustainable Sustainability was a key word in the noble Viscount’s for the foreseeable future. Whatever David Cameron Motion for this debate, and it has to be one of the key and the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, had hoped would criteria for judging the 2012 Act—apart, of course, be the benefits, I suggest that we are yet to see them from whether it improves services for patients. Nobody fully realised. Experts agree that none of the many I have talked to believes that the current proposals for 1201 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[LORDS] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1202

[BARONESS WALMSLEY] funding is cut, and cannot be subsidised by cash-strapped economies and efficiencies will deliver what is needed, local authorities, prevention suffers, leading to increased especially given the continuing rising demand. There costs in the long term. We have seen preventive services is evidence that the preparation of the sustainability being cut all over the country. In addition, local council and transformation plans is not going well. The STP representation on the boards is in the minority. The process has been very top down and has become boards’ powers are not really broad enough for them focused on short-term savings rather than longer-term to influence matters such as housing and air pollution, sustainability. This could lead to fragmented care and both of which have major consequences for health. wider inequalities. Neither has it been very transparent. Colleagues on health and well-being boards believe A current example of short-term savings is the that the cultural divide between the self-determination recent closure for three months without consultation of local government and the top-down NHS is a huge of the 12-bed ward at Rothbury Community Hospital hurdle to these boards achieving better health and in Northumberland. The hospital is only nine years social care integration. old, purpose built to serve this very rural community, I strongly believe that the public do not want to be and is a valued resource. It serves a remote and ageing treated by more and more doctors on more and more population, providing care to patients whose families days of the week. What they want are services to help would have enormous difficulty visiting them if they them remain well for longer and for appropriate services had to go to the nearest general hospital. There are towards the end of their lives, and they want that serious concerns about whether due process has been period of acute need to be as short as possible. Sadly, followed. I am not sure, frankly, whether it is part of this country falls behind others in that respect. In the an STP, but it certainly does not sound like the result Scandinavian countries, the period of high-level need of a thoughtful, long-term review of local need, and is for health services at the end of life is, on average, opposed by the local people and the local GP practice. much shorter than it is here. People remain well longer. Would the Minister care to comment? Why is that? I would judge the 2012 Act on whether it Accountability is another issue which has not been promotes the Scandinavian standard. In order to do well served by the 2012 Act. Even when the Bill was so, it would have supported more preventive services. I going through Parliament, there were concerns about for one would have cheered. But it did not, so I have this. Senior figures from the King’s Fund said at the not. time: What we need now, as has often been said by my “At a national level, it is difficult to see who, if anyone, will be right honourable friend Norman Lamb, is a genuine in charge of the NHS”. cross-party debate on how much we need to spend on It is still unclear how the five national bodies interact health and social care and the fairest way of raising with each other, and where the Secretary of State the money. I encourage all parties to consider this comes into the picture. Does the buck stop with the proposal seriously. DoH and Jeremy Hunt anymore, other than providing I would also propose that one of your Lordships’ the money? It seems that when it is inconvenient for excellent ad hoc Select Committees should do post- him to take responsibility Mr Hunt relies on the fact legislative scrutiny on the effects of the 2012 Act, that powers have been delegated to these five agencies. along the lines of the very useful report of the committee chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, on the At local level, fragmentation, as we have heard impact on disabled people of the Equality Act 2010, from other speakers, makes accountability difficult. which was debated in your Lordships’House on Tuesday Although the principle of clinicians having a role in and was a very useful exercise. commissioning is one which most of us would support, there are concerns about the abilities of some of the Will the Minister consider supporting proposals for clinical commissioning groups and about the fact that such a committee on the impact of the Health and their very existence means a postcode lottery.Devolution Social Care Act 2012? It would be able to take evidence to a local level has its advantages, but there are dangers, in a way that has not been possible for noble Lords such as to patients with rare but expensive diseases preparing for today’s debate. I think that we would which may not be funded by their local CCG. This is learn a great deal from it. where national strategies come in, but they need money too. 4.10 pm Mental health, as we have heard from the noble Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, as this Lord, Lord Lansley, is still a work in progress. Only is such a general debate, I remind the House of my today, my right honourable friend Norman Lamb has interests as president of GS1 UK, the Health Care published evidence of the shambles in CCG provision Supply Association, the Royal Society of Public Health for psychosis. and the British Fluoridation Society, as a trustee of My greatest hope for the 2012 reorganisation was the Royal College of Ophthalmologists and as a consultant the local health and well-being boards. I hoped that and trainer with Cumberlege Eden. they would bring together local services and resources I am very pleased that my noble friend Lord Hanworth and make the most appropriate provision for public opened this debate today with an extensive, and indeed health and social care in their areas with the involvement passionate, analysis of the NHS. He thinks that it is in of the local authorities. Sadly, repeated cuts in public a critical position, and I agree with him. Whether it is health funding have got in the way of local authorities’ down to the overt privatisation of the NHS encapsulated realising their potential in making a difference to the in the 2012 Act or whether it is essentially down to health of their local communities. When public health underfunding is, I think, a matter for some debate. 1203 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1204

On the matter of privatisation, I should say that I have My reading of sustainability and transformation no problem whatever with the involvement of the plans is, essentially, that they have been established by private sector in the NHS; indeed, I think that there is NHS England to replace strategic health authorities much to be gained from partnership with the private because they have to have some kind of local plan and sector. The noble Lord will know that, as a Minister, I leadership. The problem is that they lack legitimacy; I was responsible for some of the contracts that were am afraid they lack openness and I hear that, in many put in place to enable us to reduce waiting times, parts of the country, they have not involved local which I think was an excellent thing to do. government at the start. That is a great pity. I agree with my noble friend that the NHS seems to More worrying, I hear too that STPs have come up, have been forced to tender out services willy-nilly, at in the main, with tired, old solutions. So they are great expense and, frankly, with very poor outcomes. I going for heroic reductions in acute sector capacity. know that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, said that it They say that they are going to have fantastic, demand was not his intention that clinical commissioning groups management approaches to reduce the intake, but the should be forced to do that; it was going to be down to reality is that there will be no leverage over GPs, them. Indeed, when he introduced the Bill and talked primary care or local government to make it happen. about it, the emphasis was very much on local GPs It was fascinating listening to the comments of the making the decisions. The problem is that CCGs noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, about the Netherlands and themselves—andcertainlyNHSEngland—misunderstood the way in which it should be done. I am afraid that, so those messages, and CCGs felt under pressure to put far, there is very little evidence that STPs are going some services out to tender. I do not think that the down that route. outcome has been very satisfactory at all. In July, the chief executive of NHS Improvement I say also to my noble friend that I disagree with said that the NHS is “in a mess”. That was putting it him about the NHS foundation trusts. I believe that kindly. We have huge deficits; performance has gone the local governance that they have, making them completely south, and I doubt that the Government much more accountable to members locally,is something are going to get back to any of those targets in any to be treasured and supported. substantial way over the next four years. No one else I will just address PFI. Yes, there were some schemes in the health service believes that the targets are going that were expensive and not well-managed contractually, to be recovered. At heart, we have this issue of an but the fact is that, as a result of PFI, we were able to increase in demand for services,coupled with demographic invest huge amounts of money in the infrastructure. If changes, and the growth rate in resources is less than you want to look at PFI, I would look no further than the health service has ever had in the past. We know my own local district general university hospital, that, historically, up to 2015, average real terms growth Birmingham QE, which is a magnificent example of a was 4% a year; it is now down to about 1%. It is PFI scheme, delivering fantastic services and which, abundantly clear that it simply cannot be done. overall, is affordable. It is worth saying that unpublished figures to the Health Select Committee from the Health When you look at the OECD comparisons, they are Foundation, which look at expenditure on PFI in pretty shocking. There are 29 countries which have 2013-14, showed that it accounted for 1% of providers’ more CT scanners per capita than we do. There are total expenditure. It is not PFI that is breaking the bank. 28 with more MRI units and 25 have more hospital beds per capita. That gives the lie to those who think We need to be more dispassionate about the kind of that the acute sector in this country is overinvested. health service we want and how we want to see it Thirteen have more doctors per capita; 18 have more organised in the future. What happened in the 2012 health expenditure; 18 have more nurses. On comparative Act is a salutary lesson to us all. I, too, was surprised terms, I agree with my noble friend Lord Lipsey, it is at the Government’s decision to go for wholesale almost a miracle that it achieves what it does with the reorganisation. After all, it had a pretty good inheritance: kind of resources that it is given. there had been investment; waiting times had been reduced; and the infrastructure had been invested in. I My noble friends Lady Armstrong and Lady tempt fate to try to persuade the noble Lord, Lord Pitkeathley spoke eloquently about the issues in social Lansley, to say at some point, but I never understood care and the funding squeeze. The noble Lord, Lord why he simply did not get PCTs to do what they Lansley, was right about the disappointment over the should have done, which was to delegate much more implementation of the Dilnot report. It is very difficult decision-making with budgetary responsibility to GPs, to see where we are going overall in health and social rather than going for the wholesale reorganisation care, except into a long-term decline. It feels like we that we saw. I accept that the health and well-being are going back to the days when you had long waiting boards—the potential integration of health and social lists and disintegration between different parts of the care—were a very important and supportable part of service. The rhetoric is there. Ministers talk about that Bill. The problem is that the rest of it has produced integration, as do the STPs, but, from talking to a chaotic system in the field. anyone in the field who has either to do it or is a My noble friend Lord Lipsey mentioned Sir Muir patient or a client experiencing the service, things just Gray. He said that no reorganisation has ever produced seem to be getting worse and worse and worse. anything of any use. I have some sympathy with that, I do not have the time to talk about Brexit but, at although I suppose I must own responsibility for two the same time, there are issues to do with staffing. My or three of them. The fact is that this reorganisation major concern is about long-term investment in the produced great confusion and fragmentation at local life sciences in this country. The research issue to which level and, above all, a sense that no one was in charge. the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, referred is very serious. 1205 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[LORDS] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1206

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] The noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, raised technology We have the Select Committee, two members of and its uptake. Technology will have a huge impact on which spoke in the debate today.It has a very important how we deliver healthcare over the next five, 10 and task ahead of it. It could come up with a soft report, 20 years. Genomics, bioelectronics, integrated health looking at all the options one way or the other and records, big data and personalised medicine will have then ducking out of a hard recommendation. I urge it a huge impact. We will publish the accelerated access to go in hard. As my noble friend Lord Lipsey said, we review later in September, which I think will address face fundamental questions about what sort of health some of the questions that the noble Lord raised. and social care system we have, what we are trying to The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, raised the much wider do and about the demographics and how we are going issue about life sciences in the post-Brexit world. We to afford it. It would be all too easy to shy away from cannot address those issues today but it is an absolutely making the kind of hard decisions that have to be critical area that we as a country have to address. made. I very much hope that our Lordships’ House and its Select Committee will help us do that; I do not My noble friend Lord Lansley was absolutely right think the Government will. that money is critical in this regard. When the Act came in, he did not know then as Secretary of State that we were looking at a 10-year period with an 4.20 pm approximate 1% real growth in healthcare spending TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department against a background when we were spending 4% or of Health (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con): My Lords, 5% a year for many years, and, of course, a very tight first, that was an extremely good, incisive speech from local authority financial settlement as well. Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I do not agree with all of there is an issue of culture. People always say culture it—he would not expect me to do so—but it raised all eats strategy before breakfast. Well, it devours the right issues. reorganisations. In a people-centred organisation like I join everyone in thanking the noble Viscount, the NHS,where you have deep vocational and professional Lord Hanworth, for raising this subject. I do not attitudes, culture is hugely powerful. We may think recognise the picture that he painted of the NHS and I that we can tinker with the healthcare system in this have been involved with it since 2002. For the avoidance House or in the other House, but getting behavioural of any doubt at all, I put it on the record that Jeremy change from clinicians takes many years. Let us look Hunt, myself and the Conservative Government believe at NPfIT, the national programme for information wholeheartedly in a tax-funded comprehensive National technology, which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was Health Service. I do not want there to be any doubt very much involved with. You can fiddle around with about that and I want it to be on the record. I know these things in Richmond House, but to persuade people that Jeremy Hunt would absolutely refute any thought to change the way they work is much more difficult. I that he believed in an insurance-based National Health think Sir Muir Gray and the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, Service. are by and large right: we exaggerate the impact these I want to focus noble Lords’ attention on today’s reorganisations can have. debate, which is about the Act. Therefore, if noble Lords Let us look at the current performance. I acknowledge will forgive me, I will not address the social care it is really tough. The targets for acute hospitals—the settlement and will not give our response to the Public four-hour waiting times, the 18-week RTT—and the Health Post-2013 report, which was raised by the noble ambulance service are very hard to meet. I totally Lord, Lord Rea. We have only just received this report. acknowledge that. It is not surprising, because over I think that response will come in due course. I say to the last five years, the number of attendances in A&E my noble friend Lord Colwyn that I will not address in have gone up by 2.4 million people. Over the same any detail the questions he raised about dentistry. period, 1.7 million extra people with suspected cancer The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, gave a list of have been seen; 6 million more diagnostic tests are all the people who opposed the Act. I hope she will taking place this year than five years ago; and there not think me churlish if I remind her that the Liberal are 22,000 more daily out-patient appointments. I Democrats supported the Act at the time. On the could go on. The growth in demand over this period, impact of the Act, I find myself in almost total agreement at a time of great financial stringency, makes things with the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey—not total agreement, extremely difficult. We should be under no illusion but almost—because if we look at what drives healthcare about it. The NHS is doing magnificently against this and the changes in healthcare in this country, it is not difficult background; the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, the numerous reorganisations, however big or large gave a personal example. The Economist Intelligence they may be. It is in part demography, as the noble Unit recently found that, in its view, our end-of-life Baronesses, Lady Armstrong and Lady Pitkeathley, care was the best in the world. The Commonwealth mentioned. Demography is at the heart of it. We have rankings are still very favourable. The OECD has an ageing population yet we have a healthcare service reported on improving outcomes in a number of cancer which is not geared up to serve an ageing population, specialties. However, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is many of whom have multiple long-term conditions. It right; we have fewer doctors per capita in this country, is also a question of lifestyles. I was in America for fewer nurses, fewer MRI machines, and fewer CT much of August and obesity is a massive problem machines. Despite all the PFI investment over the there. It is a huge problem in this country as well. The years, many hospitals are in desperate need of comments made about Michael Marmot and the social refurbishment, renovation and rebuilding. The NHS determinants of healthcare were equally true. Poverty performs fantastically well in very difficult circumstances. is a huge contributor to health inequalities, as we know. I still believe that it is the best-value healthcare service 1207 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012 1208 in the world. All this has been helped a great deal by We are all agreed on what the future should be. The the overhead savings that came out of the Act introduced noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, says that she has by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley: £6.9 billion of heard this for 15 or 20 years. That is true, but it does overhead reduction in the last Parliament, at a one-off not make it wrong. We have to join up health and reorganisation cost of £1.3 billion. I accept that is a social care; we have to integrate healthcare. Yet, since huge amount of money, but nevertheless the overhead 2000—the date of the first quotation I gave—we have savings have been significant. gone in almost the opposite direction. We have driven At the heart of many reorganisations is the issue of more and more care into acute hospitals. how we drive improvement. During the new Labour I shall give your Lordships an interesting statistic. years, we went through a period of command and Between 2000 and 2014, the number of hospital control from the centre, moved to targets and then consultants rose by 82%, the number of GPs by 22% moved to more devolution with foundation trusts. and the number of community nurses by 14%. That Competition and choice were put at the heart of the shows where the money has gone—it has, I am afraid, new Labour efforts to get sustainable change in the gone to the wrong place. We have to reverse that trend NHS. The Act went no further than that. In many but it is very difficult to do so. We have to take ways it put things on a more even footing. Talking to resource away from where it has been going for the last my noble friend Lord Lansley, it is clear that he is 15, 20 or 40 years and put it back into the community, agnostic. I think we are all agnostic about who supplies. back into mental health and back into primary care. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, is agnostic; the That is the genesis and essence of the five-year forward noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is agnostic. We want the best view. It is the essence of the devolution to Manchester suppliers to the NHS, whether they are from the and it is behind the STPs that we have been talking public, private or third sector, or anywhere else. I about. clearly remember the then Secretary of State for Health, In response to the question, “Does the 2012 Act John Reid, now the noble Lord, Lord Reid, talking in hinder or facilitate this process?”, I have to say that I 2007 or 2008 about perhaps 15% of supply for elective do not think we would have had the five-year forward surgery coming from the private sector. Today, the view without the Act. If that forward view had not scale of private provision is 7%. been an NHS forward view—if it had involved Tony This is where we come back to culture being stronger Blair and Alan Milburn or Jeremy Hunt and David than anything that we, or the previous Labour Cameron—it would not have happened. The devolution Government, do in these Houses. The culture in the of a great deal of operational power—away from NHS is not all that open to private provision, but politicians and away from the Department of Health where private sector companies can provide a better and Richmond House to the NHS—at least gives us a service at a better price, they should be entitled to do chance of integrating care in the way that we all know so. However, we have to recognise that the opening up it should happen. Whether we are going to be able to of the market, with choice and competition, has not do it, I do not know. We have heard a lot of pessimism had the success that we would have hoped for. Healthcare today about the STP process. However, I am much is not a perfect market; it is about as imperfect a more optimistic. I shall not stand here and say that I market as you can find. So we have moved beyond think we are going to have 44 STPs and that they are choice and competition to a new approach—one based absolutely marvellous, but most of these plans are on transparency and on trying to identify and eliminate genuinely local. They are being drawn up by local unwarranted variation, whether through the Right people—by hospital trusts, but also by CCGs and Care programme in NHS England or the Getting It local authorities—many of them are led by local Right First Time programme in NHS Improvement. I authorities. have huge hopes that we will be able to engage clinicians I think the jury is out. These plans will come out at and try to drive improvement through a process of the end of October; we will have a chance then to see transparency. them. They will not all be good, but if a number of Turning to the future, I want to give noble Lords them are good and we can get behind them, it will two short quotations. The first is from the NHS Plan make a difference. In Simon Stevens’s document, there of 2000: are a number of care models, which are nearly all “The NHS is a 1940s system operating in a 21st century based on reducing demand on acute hospitals. It may world”. be that finally we have won the argument. I hope that I think we would all agree with that. There is a similar this will not embarrass the noble Baroness, Lady quotation from 2014—14 years later—from Simon Armstrong, but three or four months ago Paul Corrigan Stevens in the NHS Five Year Forward View. He says wrote a very good blog—he is always incisive, and it that there is, was a very incisive blog—in which he said that the “broad consensus on what that future needs to be … It is a future pressures on acute hospitals are great, and that if we that dissolves the classic divide, set almost in stone since 1948, carry on putting resources into acute hospitals, they between family doctors and hospitals, between physical and mental health, between health and social care, between prevention and will not change; there will be no need to change. treatment. One that no longer sees expertise locked into often For the first time, there is a real possibility that we out-dated buildings, with services fragmented, patients having to will get this change, although I do not for one minute visit multiple professionals … endlessly repeating their details underestimate the practical difficulties of doing so. I because they use separate paper records. One organised to support think it was Mao Tse-Tung who said, when asked about people with multiple health conditions, not just single diseases. A future that sees far more care delivered locally but with some the impact of the French Revolution, that it was too services in specialist centres where that clearly produces better early to say.It probably is too early to give a final verdict results”. on the impact of the Act brought in by my noble 1209 NHS: Health and Social Care Act 2012[LORDS] National Minimum Wage Regs. 2016 1210

[LORD PRIOR OF BRAMPTON] Younger people aged between 18 and 20 years-old friend Lord Lansley. However, like all reorganisations, will be entitled to a minimum of £5.55, a 4.7% increase it will be smaller than originally anticipated. If it on the rate currently in force, and those between enables the fulfilment and the implementation of the 16 and 17 years old will have a minimum wage rate of five-year forward view, I think it will be judged a £4 an hour. For apprentices aged under 19, or those resounding success. aged 19 and over in the first year of their apprenticeship, we are increasing the minimum wage by 3% to £3.40. 4.36 pm This follows the 57% increase to the apprenticeship Viscount Hanworth: This has been an interesting minimum wage last year, the largest increase to date. and disturbing debate. We have had a diversity of For 21 to 24 year-olds, this is the largest increase in opinions regarding the state of the NHS and its likely the main rate of the national minimum wage since future, not many of which have been favourable. I am 2008. It will mean that someone working full time on heartened by what I understand to be the reaffirmation the national minimum wage will see their earnings of the founding principles of the NHS by the noble increase by around £450 per year. The new main rate Lord, Lord Prior; however, I am very doubtful of his of the national minimum wage is expected to be at its optimism. highest level ever when accounting for the general Be that as it may, I draw attention to the National increases in prices, surpassing its pre-recession peak. Health Service Bill, a Private Member’s Bill that had In all, we estimate that around 500,000 workers are its Second Reading in the Commons on 11 March. expected to benefit from the national minimum wage The Bill, which was known in a previous version as the increases being debated today. NHS Reinstatement Bill, proposes to reverse the 25 years The accommodation offset was introduced in 1999. of privatisation in the NHS by abolishing the essential It limits the amount that employers can recoup through purchaser-provider split, by re-establishing public bodies accommodation charges. This year we followed advice and by enshrining that the NHS reverts to an accountable from the Low Pay Commission and increased it public service. The Bill, which has been presented significantly by 12% to £6 a day from October 2016. again for the 2016-17 Session, had another First Reading This is intended to ensure the provision of higher-quality in the Commons on 13 July. It received the support of accommodation by employers. numerous Labour MPs and even from some Conservative Since its introduction in 1999, the national minimum MPs. This Bill merits our attention, as do the speeches wage has been a success in supporting the lowest-paid that accompanied its introduction. UK workers. Over that period it has increased faster I reiterate that I am very grateful for all contributions than average wages and inflation without an adverse to what has been a very fruitful debate—at least I hope effect on employment. It has continued to rise each it has been. year during the worst recession in living memory and the new main rate is expected to be at its highest-ever Motion agreed. real value. These increases to minimum wage rates are of course National Minimum Wage (Amendment) in addition to the national living wage for those aged (No. 2) Regulations 2016 25 and over, which we implemented in April. It is the Motion to Approve Government’s ambition for the national living wage to reach 60% of median earnings by 2020. In addition, 4.38 pm the national minimum wage cycle will be aligned with Moved by Baroness Neville-Rolfe the national living wage cycle from April 2017. This will reduce the burden on businesses that have to That the draft Regulations laid before the House update their workforce’s pay more than once a year on 4 July be approved. and will mean that the statutory pay floor for all ages is uprated simultaneously. The Minister of State, Department for Business, I note the findings of the recent research conducted Energy and Industrial Strategy (Baroness Neville-Rolfe) by the Federation of Small Businesses and understand (Con): My Lords, the purpose of these regulations is that some concerns have been raised about the impact to increase the hourly rate of the national minimum on businesses’ profitability. Let me address this point wage and increase the maximum amount for living specifically.The Government are committed to ensuring accommodation that counts towards minimum wage pay that the new rates work for businesses of all sizes and to ensure the provision of higher-quality accommodation we continue to work closely with the LPC to consider by employers, in line with the recommendations from the wider economic and business impact when the Low Pay Commission. recommending and setting national minimum wage The national minimum wage is designed to protect rates. We have already introduced measures to mitigate low-income workers and provides an incentive to work the cost to business of our ambition to move to by ensuring that all workers receive at least the hourly a higher-wage economy, including increasing the minimum rates set. It helps to deter unscrupulous employment allowance from £2,000 to £3,000 this employers from competing on very low pay. year. This measure will benefit up to 500,000 employers Following advice from the Low Pay Commission, and take 90,000 employers out of NIC payments the Government are uprating the minimum wage from altogether. 1 October, so that the main rate for 21 to 24 year-olds For smaller businesses we have extended the doubling will be £6.95 per hour. This represents an increase of of the small business rate relief for a further year until 3.7%, despite CPI inflation currently being 0.6%. April 2017. Around 600,000 small businesses benefit 1211 National Minimum Wage Regs. 2016[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] National Minimum Wage Regs. 2016 1212 from the small business rate relief and about 405,000 its resources and ensures that it can respond to every businesses will pay no rates at all as a result of the worker complaint. We will continue to take a tough extension. approach to employers who break minimum wage law. The most recent employment statistics show that As of April this year, the Government have also doubled the employment rate is at a record high, with almost the national minimum wage penalty paid by employers, 32 million people in work and the unemployment rate so it is up from 100% to 200% of the arrears owed to at its lowest level in more than 10 years, with fewer the worker, up to a maximum of £20,000 per worker— than 1.7 million people unemployed and wages up penalties that really hit those who do not comply with 2.4% on a year earlier, while inflation has, of course, the law. Finally, HMRC will continue to refer the most remained low. While the referendum result may have serious cases of wilful non-compliance for criminal introduced uncertainty over forecasts and assessments investigation. made before June, we should remember that the UK The Government believe that the rates set out in the labour market was remarkably resilient during the regulations before the House today will increase the worst recession in living memory. wages of the lowest paid while being affordable for The new rates are recommended by the independent business. I commend the regulations to the House. Low Pay Commission, which consulted extensively with stakeholders representing both business and workers, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, as well as conducting comprehensive research and first, I express my apologies to the House for not being analysis. Crucially, the Low Pay Commission has proven present at the start of the discussions. I looked at the that a rising minimum wage can go hand in hand with Annunciator and thought that I had about 10 minutes rising employment. The carefully considered independent to spare, because the last speaker in the debate had advice from the Low Pay Commission is central to only just started, but apparently he cut his speech very maintaining this balance. In particular, its remit is short. I was entranced by a debate going on in the clear that, when considering the pace of increased Moses Room on access arrangements for going into minimum wage rates, the state of the economy should secondary education, which was so good that I have be taken into account. The LPC has stated that the completely lost my place. I am sorry that I was late. labour market has continued to perform well, with However, I have heard the Minister speak on many robust employment growth in low-paying sectors. of these issues before. Indeed, we debated them as recently as the end of last term. I am fairly aware of Lord Fox (LD): My Lords, the Minister is right to the issues and I will certainly read what she said suggest that we have high or record high employment carefully, in case I have missed anything. I have no levels. Weare also at record levels of zero-hour contracts. objections at all in principle to the proposal that is The minimum wage is not actually a wage; it is a being brought forward. For all the arguments made by minimum hourly rate and people fight to get sufficient the Minister, this process is now well-entrenched. The hours to get that minimum wage. Can the Minister increases are very modest, but they are done in accordance comment on the way in which the Government will with the procedure set out. I have absolutely no doubt approach the zero-hour part, which is diminishing the that it is appropriate and good that wages will be minimum wage for many people across the country? lifted, which will benefit a large number of people on lower pay. Women in particular will see these benefits in their pay packets. Baroness Neville-Rolfe: We have debated zero-hours I have four small points that I want to raise and to contracts in this House a number of times. I continue which I would be happy to hear the Minister respond, to believe that they have a part to play in the modern but if there are complications I am happy to receive a flexible market. There were some abuses to those letter in due course. The first is a technical one, which contracts, which we discussed last year, and we have was that the paper supplied by the Printed Paper banned the use of exclusivity clauses so that people Office includes an impact assessment. It is extremely have the freedom to look for and take other work well-written and I compliment officials on that. I opportunities and have more control over their work enjoyed reading it and I felt that it dealt with all the hours and income. However, I believe that a strong issues well. However, it said that the RPC opinion was minimum wage framework with good enforcement, awaiting scrutiny and I have not been sent that. I which I am going to talk about, is the right way would be grateful if it could be provided. I am sure forward. The effectiveness of this system—I think that that there is no difficulty around it, but it would be this is true in every regulatory area that I deal with—relies nice to have a complete set of papers when we are on proper enforcement. considering these issues. On technical issues, I again We are clear that anyone entitled to be paid the congratulate the Minister on living the life that she national minimum wage or the national living wage promised, which was to bring these things in on the should receive it, whether they are on a zero-hours common commencement date of 1 October. She will contract or not. The enforcement of a minimum wage have expected me to say that. is therefore essential to its success and we are committed Secondly, the evidence base for many issues, but to cracking down on employers who break the minimum particularly for non-compliance and to some extent wage law. That is across all sectors of the economy. apprenticeships, depends on a rather oddly named That is why we have increased the enforcement budget survey called ASHE—a survey of employees completed for HMRC, which enforces the minimum wage on by employers, which can be used to identify jobs paid behalf of our department. That is £20 million in below the national minimum wage. Clearly non- 2016-17, up from £13 million last year. That bolsters compliance is important here. Two points arise from 1213 National Minimum Wage Regs. 2016[LORDS] National Minimum Wage Regs. 2016 1214

[LORD STEVENSON OF BALMACARA] fairly clear that there has been failure to comply with it: is that the best we can do, and does the department the arrangements, the doubled penalties to which we have any plans to improve it? A survey of employees agreed in the then Enterprise Bill and the additional completed by employers aimed at establishing whether more difficult approach—not in numbers of employees, the national minimum wage is being paid at the correct but in the amount per employee—will be applied in rate may not be the most appropriate and independent full in this case? way of checking whether it is happening in practice. Having said that, we note that some 209,000 employees’ Baroness Neville-Rolfe: I am most grateful to the jobs were paid less than the national minimum wage in noble Lord for his courteous comments about his April 2015. That is a significant number and ought to lateness—I am sorry to have dragged him away from be of some concern, even though the individual amounts such an important debate—and for his support for the are small. It is the methodology that I pick up on. I regulations. The minimum wage came in under the would be interested to know whether the Minister has Labour Government and we have had a lot of cross-party plans to improve it, because, as she said, it is important support for the system that they set up, including the to ensure that the national minimum wage and, as we Low Pay Commission. We agree on that. I am also get to it, the national living wage are paid. If we do not grateful for his comment about common commencement have an adequate means of checking, I do not see how dates, because we have a joint campaign to ensure that we will do so. they are respected. It is not always possible, but when My third small point raises a similar issue. Quite an they are we should celebrate it. The points that he important part of some people’s pay packets is the raised are technical and testing. I will start with the accommodation offset rate. Accommodation is the impact assessment. I think that the noble Lord was only benefit in kind that can be offset against minimum saying that he had not seen a copy. wage pay. It is only up to the limit. I suspect that it is therefore quite an important element for quite a large Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: I am sorry to interrupt. number of the people involved, but the trouble is that On the front page of the impact assessment, which is we do not know how many that is, since apparently no attached to the explanatory memorandum—it is what statistics are available that give any details around it. I was given when I asked in the Printed Paper Office— The increase this year is 12%. It is a substantial amount there is usually a note in the top right-hand corner on of additional money, which goes up to £6 per week, what the RPC opinion is. That is obviously useful, but because of the uncertainty in knowing how many because it is a traffic-light system as to whether it employees in scope of the national minimum wage offset thinks that the assessment has been properly done. I rate receive it, it is not counted in analysing what the fully expect it to have been properly done, but its benefits, costs and disbenefits would be of any increase. opinion is not recorded there. I do not wish to delay consideration but, in the need to improve the quality of the public administration, surely we could do a bit more to survey and get accurate Baroness Neville-Rolfe: Perhaps the noble Lord information. If it does not lie in BEIS, perhaps it lies remembers that the RPC had an issue with our impact in DWP—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Freud, assessment on the October 2015 uprating of the apprentice is taking note of the points that I make, because I am national minimum wage. It has, however, indicated sure it is relevant to what he will say. that it is content with our new approach with respect Finally, in a week where we have been given a lot of to the assessment of the impacts of the 2016 upratings. information about the activities of a particular sportswear Indeed, the assessment now looks at costs over two manufacturing and delivering firm, it seemed a little years, rather than one year,in response to RPC feedback. ironic to read about the enforcement regime and the I hope that that clarifies the RPC position. relatively small number of firms that have been reported On the non-compliance estimates, we are working on and investigated. Sports Direct—it may as well be to improve them. I note what the noble Lord says about named—clearly has a large problem on its plate in enforcement—he was saying, in a way, that we should what it has been paying, or not paying, its employees. look at higher-risk employers, and was talking about The situation with Sports Direct arose from a private size and zero-hours contracts. I will take a look at the investigation by a newspaper, not from the additional noble Lord’s comments and write to him about that money available to HMRC. Has that taught the whole area. I think that my spirit is the same as his. department any lessons about how this is to be taken With regard to Sports Direct, that is clearly a forward? Might it wish to investigate other firms as a concerning matter.I have to be careful about commenting result? Its approach seems to be one of responding to on specific employers, as noble Lords know. The double complaints. That might miss some of the most obvious penalties have come in and, in relation to offences cases where not enough action is taking place. since the adoption of the regulation, they would of course apply. We are very much committed to ensuring What sort of approach would be better? Is there not that workers receive the money that they are owed and a suggestion to be made of a tougher approach to that unscrupulous employers face tough penalties. I large employers employing large numbers of people like the combination of civil penalties, which have led on zero-hours contracts, where it is clear that the to quite large amounts of income being recovered for combination of that arrangement, particularly in people, and the occasional criminal penalty, where companies controlled perhaps by an original owner, there is an egregious case and we can take totemic might suggest that there will be some difficulty in action. That is the way that we try to do things. ensuring that these things happen? Will the Minister confirm that in the case of Sports Direct, since it is Motion agreed. 1215 Pensions Act 2014 Order 2016[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Pensions Act 2014 Order 2016 1216

Pensions Act 2014 (Consequential place from 6 April 2016 but, unfortunately, it was Amendments) Order 2016 overlooked. Having identified the omission, we have acted as quickly as we could to put it right. This is why Motion to Approve the order will come into force on the day after it is made. 4.58 pm My officials have been working closely with HMRC, Moved by Lord Freud which administers credits on DWP’s behalf, to devise a workaround. Once the order has come into force, That the draft Order laid before the House on HMRC will be revisiting the decisions made before it 4 July be approved. came into force. Where fresh decisions are made, they will carry an appeal right. There will be no substantial difference in outcome between an original decision, The Minister of State, Department for Work and had it been appealable and successfully appealed, and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con): My Lords, you will recall a fresh decision that is successfully appealed. A successful a previous set of consequential amendments connected appellant will have credits awarded to them. I should to the introduction of the new state pension, together stress that to date there have been no appeals. That with a set of affirmative regulations that were discussed there have been no appeals is understandable. First, in February this year. This order makes a small number this issue relates only to decisions made in the period of further such consequential amendments. They do between 6 April 2016 and the date the order takes two things. effect, which is around five months. Secondly, it only First, they ensure that existing administrative affects credits which a person has to apply for. arrangements which are designed to facilitate the annual The practical impact of the gap in the law is restricted uprating exercise will continue to operate as they do to decisions about credits which a person has been now. Secondly, they give appeal rights to decisions able to apply for since 6 April 2016. These include new about national insurance credits that count for new credits to cover past periods in which a person was state pension purposes. accompanying their Armed Forces spouse or civil Article 2 amends provisions of the Social Security partner on service overseas. Ordinarily, credits awarded Administration Act 1992 which deal with alterations for the tax year 2016-17 would be taken into account in the payable amount of certain income-related benefits: only in the assessment of new state pension awards income support, income-based jobseeker’s allowance, made on or after 6 April 2017. However, the new income-related employment and support allowance, credits for Armed Forces spouses and civil partners universal credit and pension credit. These provisions could affect awards made this year. A further mitigation allow the income-related benefit award to be adjusted is that before a disputed decision can be appealed, it without the need for a further decision if the adjustment goes through a process of mandatory reconsideration. is due to uprating—whether it is the benefit itself that So the decision-maker has to look at it again and if, on is being uprated, another benefit is being taken into reflection, they consider that the decision should be account, or both. They also enable the decision-maker changed then it can be revised, without the claimant to take account of the new rates from the uprating having to go through an appeal process. date in determining new awards that begin before the We also know that in relation to the new credit uprating order has come into force. These are long- for an Armed Forces spouse or civil partner made standing administrative easements which help to ensure under Part 8 of the State Pension Regulations 2015, the effective operation of the annual uprating exercise. out of 1,647 applications which have been decided up As your Lordships know, where a person is a member to 5 September 2016, 324 were refused—and of those of a couple, their entitlement to benefits can be affected refusals, 201 were because the tax year in question is by their status as a couple.Therefore, where a working-age already a qualifying year for other reasons. income-related benefit is in payment for a couple but Finally,based on data from last year—2015-16—about the non-claiming partner is a pensioner, the benefit credits decisions made under the 1975 regulations, we income could include state pensions. The amendments know that only a tiny number of disputed credits decisions made by Article 2 simply ensure that business as usual actually proceeded to appeal. will continue where a person’s benefit income includes So with the change in the law imminent, and if they new state pension. The forthcoming uprating exercise are needed, we anticipate that the contingency which will determine the rates to be applied from next arrangements we have put in place will be required for April is, of course, the first to apply to the new state only a very small number of cases. I can also confirm pension. that, in my view, this statutory instrument is compatible National insurance credits which count for new with the European Convention on Human Rights. I state pension purposes are provided for under Part 8 hope this gives noble Lords reassurance that while it is of the State Pension Regulations 2015. These are new accepted that justice may be delayed, it will not be regulations, made under a new power inserted in the denied. I beg to move. legislation by the Pensions Act 2014. The policy is that decisions made in relation to these credits should, as is the case with decisions made in respect of existing Baroness Drake (Lab): My Lords, it is unfortunate credits awarded under the old credits regulations, have that there has been an oversight in providing a right of the right of appeal. As the law stands, they do not. appeal in respect of certain decisions on NI credits for The amendment being made by Article 3 gives that the new state pension, but clearly it is recognised that appeal right. This amendment should have been in this SI seeks to correct that. 1217 Pensions Act 2014 Order 2016[LORDS] Pensions Act 2014 Order 2016 1218

[BARONESS DRAKE] Given the introduction of universal credit, over However,I am a little confused because,as I understand time the adjusting of income-related benefits to take it, the decisions potentially impacted by the oversight account of the uprating of the new state pension will in relation to the appeal relate to credits for, in certain largely be in respect of awards of universal credit and circumstances, people caring for children under 12, pension credit. The experience of the poorest pensioners carers and spouses and civil partners of members of will continue to be influenced by the extent to which Her Majesty’s Armed Forces. It would be helpful if the uprating of the pension guarantee credit is comparable the Minister could clarify exactly which classes of to, or less generous than, that applied to the new state credits were impacted by this appeal oversight, because pension. Can the Minister confirm the Government’s it is difficult for the layperson to work it out. In policy for the uprating of pension credit, not least over particular, will he say whether that category or class of the course of this Parliament? credits includes applications for credits from those caring for at least 20 hours a week, including grandparents? Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD): My Lords, I will The concern has to be over the extent to which the make a short contribution to this debate. I think the omission of a right of appeal may have affected House is grateful to the Minister for coming forward individuals’ access to such credits and whether this SI with these two corrections to omissions. It is reassuring addresses that sufficiently. Again, it was quite complex to hear, if I understand the Minister accurately, that trying to follow what exactly was the answer to that these things have been caught in time, so that there has question. Is it possible for the Minister to confirm or been no real loss to individuals. Like the noble Baroness, indicate the number of claimants who have been denied Lady Drake, I would like more reassurance, because it a right of appeal to date as a result of this omission—that was quite a complicated explanation. I think the Minister is, the population denied that right rather than those said that no results in terms of loss of appeals to who sought, in the absence of that right, to appeal? national insurance credit were discernible. The oversight concerning an appeal embraces all It would be valuable if the Minister could take decisions on the relevant credits made between 6 April careful note that some of us might like to come back 2016 and the date when these regulations restore a to monitoring this in the uprating debate next spring, right of appeal. The Explanatory Memorandum refers so that we will have a better chance to look at all the to minimising, downstream consequences of the changes. In addition, “the period when there is no right of appeal”, I would like to hear a little more reassurance about for these certain classes of credits, but I am not sure paragraph 12 of the Explanatory Memorandum, how that impacts the individuals who may have sought Monitoring and Review, which says: to exercise a right of appeal during the period. Does “We will not monitor these changes specifically, but will do so this mean, for example, that all those who made through established customer feedback processes”. applications for such credits which failed will automatically I wonder what that means and how meaningful it is be written to and told that they now have a right of when these changes might be affecting tiny numbers, appeal? I am not quite sure how they will be addressed but the tiny numbers might be significantly affected. I under this SI. It would be helpful to have that clarified. am a bit nervous about leaving this to customer feedback. As the Explanatory Memorandum observes, some Will the Minister take that point on board? credits are posted automatically while other credits On another process point, I have always been amazed must be applied for: for example, the credit for caring at the extent of the expertise available to the professionals for at least 20 hours a week. The omission of an appeal in the department, the Pensions Directorate and the sits alongside what appears to be government reluctance Pensions Agency, its predecessor. They were expert at to report on the success of measures to improve the coping with this immense detail. The regulations contain take-up of claimable benefits. The noble Baroness, two omissions, and that is two omissions too many. Lady Altmann, as Pensions Minister, commented that They may be relatively minor in their extent, but, as I it was regrettable that the number of carers claiming keep saying to the Minister, the ministerial team has to for NI credits was still so low—so I will take this make sure that there is enough resource in the department opportunity to ask the Minister whether it is possible to ensure that parliamentary draftsmen get all the details to be advised on how many carers claim such credits they need, so that omissions are not made in future. and the number the DWP estimates could be eligible The department continues to suffer staff cuts in a way for such credits, so that we have some idea of what the that puts unreasonable pressure on the experts who noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, was referring to when are good enough to provide us with the regulations she referred to the regrettably low number of claimants. that we consider here in Parliament. Will the Minister My final point is on the uprating of the new state reflect on that? pension and the consequential adjustment to income- It may be that these are two completely one-off related benefits. Sections 150, 150A and 151A of the exceptions. I hope that it is not the beginning of a Social Security Administration Act refer to uprating trend. Those of us in Parliament who look at these by no less than earnings or prices. There is no reference things will be watching very carefully. I do not blame to the triple lock in the new state pension. I cannot the professionals in the department: if they are miss this opportunity, given that there has been much underhanded in terms of dealing with the immense speculation and comment about the longevity of the volume of ineffably complicated minutiae of legislative triple lock, not least from the Government’s previous proceedings and provisions, they need all the help that Pensions Minister. Can the Minister confirm the exact they can get. extent of the Government’s commitment to retaining Again, I welcome the fact that this seems to have the triple lock? been picked up in time, but if the Minister could give 1219 Pensions Act 2014 Order 2016[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Pensions Act 2014 Order 2016 1220 us some more reassurance about winners and losers, recent plans—pre the resignation of IDS—were for even if it takes him over the coming months until the universal credit to be rolled out for all new claimants next uprating in the spring, I am perfectly content to between 2016 and June 2018, with gatewayareas becoming support these regulations. I support the points raised full service areas. This was to be followed by migration by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, but I am perfectly of current claims of legacy benefits to be completed in happy to support these regulations and allow them to 2021. Is this still the plan? go forward. How does the Minister respond to the article in Tuesday’s Times, which refers to the involvement of 5.15 pm GCHQ in alerting No. 10 to security flaws in the Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, I shall programme, with significant numbers of claimants follow the usual incisive contribution of my noble facing significant issues? Can the Minister assure us friend Lady Drake and the contribution of the noble that, now IDS is out of the way, the reported chaos Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope, in thanking the under every stone has been dealt with? Quite apart Minister for his introduction of this order. It is quite from this order, however, we should find time to like old times. I also take the opportunity to thank the debate this fully. officials who spent a bit of time yesterday with us So far as pension uprating is concerned, Sections 150, trying to unlock for us some of the intricacies of these 150A and 151A make reference variously to uprating provisions which, although small in terms of drafting, by not less than earnings or prices. My noble friend are quite complicated. Lady Drake pressed this issue. There is of course no We note the Minister has confirmed at least in one specific reference to the triple lock in these statutory respect the judgment of his predecessor, concerning provisions, although it can be catered for within the compatibility with the European Convention on Human drafting formulation. I press the Minister, as has my Rights. I state from the outset that we do not seek to noble friend, to confirm the Government’s position on challenge these provisions, although we add our concerns this matter, particularly in light of his predecessor’s to that expressed by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny recent comments. Will the triple lock continue to be Committee, that overlooking an appeals mechanism applied, as now, at least until the end of this Parliament? within three months of a new pension scheme starting We have been told that Article 3 amends an omission does not inspire confidence. My noble friend Lady of a consequential amendment arising from the 2014 Drake has rightly chided the Government in stronger Pensions Act, and this omission being included in the terms, and the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, made the right of appeal for decisions concerning awards for point that two omissions are two too many. credits made under Part 8 of the State Pension Regulations As we have heard, the order seeks to address two 2015. We are told that any credit decisions under these distinct issues. First, it extends the automatic adjustment provisions in respect of the tax year 2016-17 will need of certain benefits where a recipient or their family are to be reconsidered once the law has changed. My noble in receipt of another benefit which is uprated. In friend, again, pressed on that matter. As my noble friend particular, it ensures that the definition of benefit said, these could relate to decisions on credits for income includes the state pension under the Pensions spouses and civil partners of members of HM Forces, Act 2014—that is, the new state pension—and that people caring for a child under 12, foster carers and definitions of alteration include those transitional people approaching pensionable age. These are important provisions of the new state pension which have to be provisions. uprated by no less than the increase in prices. That includes protected payments, certain increments inherited The Explanatory Note suggests that this omission from a deceased spouse or civil partner, and certain will have very little effect because it concerns only one other deferred amounts inherited under the state pension. class of credits—post-April 2016 class 3 credits to Secondly, as the noble Lord explained, there are appeal cover gaps in the records of those accompanying HM rights to secure certain national insurance credits. Forces, as spouses or civil partners, in a posting outside the UK. This seems to be on the basis that generally On the first issue, the automatic adjustment would decisions on tax credits for 2016-17 will be relevant apply only to income-related benefits including income only in determining the new state pension for those support, JSA, ESA, pension credit and universal credit. reaching state pension age for 2017-18, by which time The Explanatory Note to the order sets out the limited the problem will have been fixed. The exception appears circumstances where the state pension will form part to be spouses and civil partners of HM Forces personnel, of the benefit income of a person claiming a working-age where credit from 1975-76 can be relevant to pension benefit. Its application is asserted to be—perhaps the awards for 2016-17. Can the Minister confirm that Minister will confirm this—for pension credit awards that is correct and that is why it is of limited effect? and potentially for so-called “mixed” couples, where there is currently a choice of pension credit or the Can the Minister say generally whether the appeals working-age benefit. We are told that this choice is to rights apply only to those credits which have to be be phased out. Perhaps the Minister will also confirm claimed and not those applied automatically? I think the timing and mechanism for this to happen. he did that in his presentation, but I ask: if that is the To the extent that income support, JSA and ESA case, what is the remedy, should the latter be subject to are to be replaced by universal credit, the Government error? Is this a matter of administrative adjustment? anticipate that these arrangements in due course will The Explanatory Note seems to be suggesting that, apply to universal credit and pension credit only. This notwithstanding that there is no current right of appeal raises a number of questions. First, there is the timetable in certain circumstances, HMRC can in the interim for universal credit. It is understood that the most undertake a reconsideration, which would be the first 1221 Pensions Act 2014 Order 2016[LORDS] Pensions Act 2014 Order 2016 1222

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] historical by now. We have been working with GCHQ stage of an appeal should the right to one exist. Again, all the way through to make sure that universal credit I think that that is what the Minister said, but perhaps is secure. It has monitored and is content with the he would confirm that. system; that is something that has been of immense The issue of National Insurance credits takes us value to us as we have developed the system. back to an earlier debate about generally improving We made an announcement in July on the timetable. take-up of these credits, which are not awarded We now envisage universal credit being completed by automatically—again a point pressed by my noble friend March 2022 instead of March 2021, but nine months Lady Drake. In resisting a reporting process to Parliament of that difference is contingency. on a take-up strategy, the noble Lord said that, The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about credit “we intend to review these systems to identify what efficiencies applications. Decisions on credit applications made in can be put in place to make the system of national insurance respect of 2016-17 will be relevant in determining the credits as simple as possible”.—[Official Report, 18/12/13; col. 353.] new state pension entitlement only of people reaching Would the noble Lord please now offer us an update? state pension age from 2017-18, as this will be the first Lord Freud: My Lords, I thank noble Lords for cohort for which 2016-17 will be a relevant tax year. their contributions,which made it rather a more interesting What he was asking was therefore correct. debate than I had anticipated. I will go straight into On his question about a review, we carried out a the questions that were raised rather than reprising the review and found that the main issue was lack of content. information. This is being addressed in the new state There have been two omissions. One was something pension awareness campaign. I think I have covered that has actually potentially affected people; we are most of the questions, but I will go over them carefully getting that first one back in time. We take this seriously. afterwards and I will write to noble Lords. It is not the first time that I have had to grovel somewhat about redoing regulations; I suspect that Lord McKenzie of Luton: Before the noble Lord sits some noble Lords on the other Benches have had down, I imagine he has a note from the Box ready, so similar experiences. perhaps I could ask him to comment on the right of appeal in respect of credits where they are awarded A noble Lord: Never. automatically. From what he said, I think the right of appeal applies to credits that have to be claimed. If Lord Freud: Never! So, clearly we need to take this there is an error in the application of automatic credits, seriously. In this case, however, the impacts have not what is the remedy and how is it applied? been great. On how the feedback works, we have an established complaints and resolution procedure—and Lord Freud: I will confirm this in writing, but my it is particularly valuable doing it this way because, as impression is that there is a right of appeal in these the noble Lord said, the numbers are small—whereby circumstances. It may be that there was no gap in the people can either write or phone in. We will catch legislation. I will confirm that, but that is my starting these and assess what is happening. position for 10. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, that I described in my speech a process that, so far, no one Baroness Drake: Before the noble Lord sits down, I has tried to appeal. If they do, there is a workaround, just want to take advantage, if I may, to ask about the so in practice there will be no gap at all for people. The issue of pension credit. It has been confirmed that it minimum guarantee for the pension credit standard will follow the earnings link, which we know is in the will continue to be uprated, at least by earnings every legislation. But in recent times we have seen increases year. I am in a position, I think, to confirm to noble in pension credit greater than what is required by Lords that the triple lock is in place through this legislation in order to ensure that the poorest pensioners Parliament, as has been said several times in the past. do not receive a smaller increase than those receiving On the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady state pension. Given the kind of statements made in Drake, about credit decisions, the oversight affects all the Budget in 2015, is the disposition of the Government decisions on credits—which includes grandparents—made still to say that there will be a focus on the poorest under the powers in the Pensions Act 2014 from pensioners through pension credit and that they will 6 April 2016 to when the law is changed. The specific not feel constrained to stay only within what the decisions affected relate to credits for spouses and civil legislation says but may go above it in order to protect partners of members of Her Majesty’s Forces, child those poorest pensioners? I am interested so I am benefit recipients, people caring for a child under 12, pushing the Minister on this point. foster carers and people approaching pensionable age— and, as I mentioned, it includes grandparents. I am Lord Freud: I always love to answer the noble Baroness afraid that we do not have data on the numbers. There in a positive way, but I am not in a position to speculate are around 400,000 eligible for carer’s credit and, in on the precise levels in any particular year. We do not August, there were 10,900 recipients. There are 200,000 have long to wait until we see some of the figures. I am service spouses eligible and, since April, we have had feeling incredibly confident about my last answer, 1,850 applicants. almost to the extent that a letter is not required on this The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, enjoys reading particular point. With that response, I beg to move. newspaper articles on universal credit. I can confirm Motion agreed. that there was a most imaginative use of the present tense in the Times—all references to spies are pretty House adjourned at 5.33 pm. GC 149 Anti-social Behaviour [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Anti-social Behaviour GC 150

Grand Committee Later in the year, in a different context, during the passage of the Deregulation Bill, both in Grand Thursday 8 September 2016 Committee and on Report, my noble friend Lord Stoneham and I pointed out the considerable powers that were already available to prevent noise nuisance. Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing At the same time, we raised our continuing concern that public space protection orders would be used in a Act 2014 heavy-handed way. The Government, this time in the Question for Short Debate form of the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, gave assurances on both occasions that they were clear 1 pm that busking can enrich a community’s quality of life Asked by Lord Clement-Jones and generate a positive atmosphere enjoyed by many people. But later he said: To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps “The Government do not start from the position that busking they are taking to ensure that the powers available requires regulation and control”.—[Official Report, 11/11/14; under the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing col. GC 46.] Act 2014 are invoked and exercised in an accountable, So right from the start we received a series of ministerial appropriate and proportionate manner. assurances about how the new PSPO would be exercised. Nevertheless, very soon, signs began to emerge of Lord Clement-Jones (LD): My Lords, I have for inappropriate use of the PSPO powers. many years been passionate about the future of live In February 2015, I asked an Oral Question about music and am only too well aware that many of our the operation of the Act and what use had been made most famous acts can have small beginnings, with of it to prevent or control busking. In reply, the noble many well-known artists starting their careers performing Baroness, Lady Williams, said: in small clubs and pubs or busking on the streets. It “We have made it clear in the statutory guidance for front-line was for that reason that I promoted the Live Music professionals that they should not use the new powers to stop Act 2012 and why,on my Benches, we became concerned reasonable activities such as busking or other forms of street about the impact of public space protection order entertainment that are not causing anti-social behaviour”.—[Official powers under the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Report, 12/2/15; col. 1354.] Policing Act 2014. Despite those ministerial assurances, it was becoming In response to concerns expressed by my noble clear a year and a half ago that these powers were being friend Lady Hamwee on Report, the noble Lord, Lord used extensively in an inappropriate and disproportionate Taylor of Holbeach, confirmed the importance of the way.In fact, they were not just being used inappropriately statutoryguidance,whichwouldbeconsultedon.Ominously, to ban busking, they were being invoked for much he said that the essence was to allow councils maximum wider purposes—for instance, to ban the homeless flexibility on the exercise of the new powers. That, I from the streets. In February this year, the Manifesto believe, is the root cause of the problem today. Club published its report, PSPOs: A Busybodies’ Charter, Shortly afterwards, in January, I raised a Question reflecting this, pointing out the extensive and in the House seeking further assurance on busking disproportionate use of these powers and calling for policy to make sure that local authorities would not proper limits to be placed on them. resort to a PSPO before they had first exercised their In response to an Oral Question this February, I noise-abatement powers. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, received yet more assurances from yet another Minister, said: this time the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon. “The Government are certainly not seeking to restrict reasonable He said that, behaviour and activity, and we do not believe that these powers “we have made it clear in the statutory guidance that anti-social do. Live music and street entertainment play an important role in behaviour powers should not be used against reasonable activities community life and can generate a positive atmosphere that is such as busking, where this does not cross the line into anti-social enjoyed by all”. behaviour”.—[Official Report, 1/2/16; col. 1585.] He also said: Despite a succession of assurances given over the “We believe that the tests and safeguards set out in the new years by at least four government Ministers, the problem anti-social behaviour powers will ensure that they will be used of the inappropriate use of PSPOs worsens. Buskers only where reasonable”.—[Official Report, 21/1/14; col. 571.] are now falling foul of laws designed to break up In June of the same year, I raised issues regarding dangerous public gatherings and risk being branded police attitudes to busking and received an equally as criminals.The problem goes much wider.The Manifesto positive reply from the noble Baroness, Lady Williams Club report shows that PSPOs are being used not only of Trafford, who I am delighted is replying to this to criminalise busking but also the everyday lives of debate. She said that, ordinary people, including the activities of the homeless, “the Government are clear that appropriate busking can enrich a charity collectors, teenagers, skateboarders, parents community’s quality of life and generate a positive atmosphere dropping off kids at school and even those wearing that can be enjoyed by many people”. head coverings. She also said that, Sefton Council’sban on head coverings would include “we have undertaken … to include reference to busking in the guidance for the new anti-social behaviour powers for use by hats. Other councils, such as North East Derbyshire, the police and others. This will be published shortly, in advance of have prohibited or are seeking to prohibit the carrying the new powers commencing later in the year”.—[Official Report, of golf bags, or the carrying of skateboards, as in 30/6/14; cols. 1531-32.] Colchester. At least five have banned rough sleeping. GC 151 Anti-social Behaviour [LORDS] Anti-social Behaviour GC 152

[LORD CLEMENT-JONES] Secondly, the majority of PSPOs are being passed Others, such as Gravesham Council, have prohibited by single council officers. The Manifesto Club’s research lying down in public, which would prohibit lying on found that out of the 56 councils that have passed a the grass or falling asleep in a public place. PSPO and provided data, half—that is 28 councils—have At least six councils have banned or restricted music done this. Seventeen councils—30%—passed the order or street art. Hammersmith and Fulham Council has through a committee, but only nine—16%—passed it banned busking and public speaking in the area outside through a decision of the full council. They must be Shepherd’s Bush Tube station after 6 pm. At least passed only after a debate of the full council and not 16 have created new criminal offences of loitering or based on the decision of a single officer. congregating in groups in a public place. Hillingdon Thirdly,PSPOs are not being consulted on adequately. Council has prohibited people from gathering in groups Although most councils have held a public consultation, of two or more unless at a designated bus stop, and in many cases these have been of extremely low quality. Bassetlaw Council has banned young people aged 16 There must be a requirement for proper consultation, or under from standing in groups of three or more. so that they cannot be imposed having asked just a few Kettering Council has banned skateboarding and vague questions of residents. created a curfew for under-18s, meaning it is now a Fourthly, the grounds and methods of appeal are crime for a 17 year-old to be out after 11 pm or before too limited. We believe that the Government intended 6 am. In Oxford, the council has proposed a ban on that these powers should be partly checked through any activity it judges makes people feel uncomfortable, the courts. There should be a much better right of and a city-centre PSPO has banned aggressive begging, appeal. Currently, appellants have very narrow grounds street entertainment that causes a nuisance, remaining to appeal to the High Court, only six weeks to appeal in a public toilet without reasonable excuse, and allowing and have to bear all the costs if they fail. The grounds dogs to enter any covered space. Hillingdon Council of appeal should be expanded to something more like has banned noisy remote-controlled cars and pigeon the test for judicial review, which would allow the feeding from its parks. Swindon Council has banned worst cases of unreasonable PSPOs to be challenged pavement art, thereby criminalising its resident and and checked in the courts. well-known pavement poet Danny Lake, even though I am sure that we are here in the area of unintended 68% of the public voted against this. consequences. Given Ministers’ assurances, I am sure So far, 80 councils have introduced PSPOs and that they did not intend the Act to be used in this more are threatening to bring them in. Police and local way—banning rough sleeping, placing curfews on authorities, often based on the decision of a single teenagers and so on. It is urgent and vital that they official, and without consultation or a council decision, recognise that there is a fundamental problem with the are throwing new orders about like confetti. A huge Act. This may or may not be resolvable by changes to number of people are being dragged into the net of the guidance. I hope that we are making some progress the criminal law. Clearly, the problem of improper use and that amendments to the statutory guidance are of these new powers extends well beyond busking: it is being drafted as we speak but, in the light of the high time we took stock of this and amended the history of ministerial reassurances on this, I do not statutory guidance and, if necessary, the primary take anything for granted. I should like to hear specifically legislation, before our freedoms are eroded any further. what is proposed. However, there may be a ray of sunshine. After my Hence this debate about how the Government plan Oral Question last February, at the invitation of the to ensure that these powers are invoked and exercised noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, I, together with the Manifesto in an accountable,appropriate and proportionate manner: Club, the Kennel Club, Liberty, Keep Streets Live, the to find out whether demands for change, particularly MU, UK Music, and others, wrote to him and his then to the statutory guidance, will be met. We cannot have Home Office colleague, Karen Bradley, to set out the local authorities and police services cracking down on current issues and demonstrate why changes are needed our culture, ripping out the heart of our town centres to the legislation and statutory guidance.Karen Bradley— and destroying the vibrancy of our local communities. now, I hope, in her new role stoutly upholding the I have a note here from the Salvation Army. It states: rights of street performers and their contribution to local culture—wrote back defending PSPOs and the “Thank you for sponsoring a debate on the operation of the 2014 Act. We have had three of our front line locations raise procedures used. She did, however, offer to consider concerns about the way in which Local Authorities are using amending the statutory guidance, and I replied in July, Public Space Protection Orders in connection with homeless setting out what campaigners believe are the key problems people spending time in public spaces … We would ask that and the changes needed to solve them. Let me spell government clarify their guidance to Local Authorities saying these out. that PSPOs are not to be used to disperse homeless people rather First, PSPOs are targeting activities that are not in than engage with them”. themselves harmful. The most problematic examples I hope the Minister can today give cast-iron guarantees have banned activities that do not in themselves cause that the Government intend to make vital changes and significant public nuisance or harm, such as rough will see them through. sleeping, begging, loitering, standing in groups, swearing or skateboarding. We want to see a much stronger test 1.12 pm before powers are used. PSPOs must target only activities that are causing significant public nuisance or harm; The Earl of Clancarty (CB): My Lords, I am very councils should not be able to use them for activities grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for that some people just find annoying or unpleasant. introducing this debate with his usual comprehensive GC 153 Anti-social Behaviour [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Anti-social Behaviour GC 154 analysis of the problem, which, as we have heard, is way from nuisance and annoyance but it is at this significant. I am also grateful for the briefings from much less significant level of perceived harm that the Manifesto Club on public space protection orders. PSPOs are being applied. The noble Lord rightly focused his attention on PSPOs. It seems that you can be criminalised effectively for The heart of this issue is bound up with our understanding anything that the local council decides on. This surely of what public space is and what we want to get out makes a mockery not just of the concept of public of it. space as a space of co-operation—a publicly owned Not entirely coincidentally, the debate happening and shared space whose uses should be negotiated and simultaneously in the Chamber—an equally important tolerated by all the public who use that space—but a debate led by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter—is mockery of the law itself. also about public space, a different kind of space: the At the inhumane end of the scale the criminalisation public sphere. The reason we are now having these of rough sleepers in Wrexham and beggars in concerns about the future of public space in the broader Southampton and other places is particularly scandalous sense is that both the imaginary space, as it has been and entirely unacceptable, since this is the targeting of described, of the public sphere and the geographical the vulnerable who need to be helped, not criminalised. space under discussion here are under considerable The idea of slapping a £100 fine on a rough sleeper or threat to both their amount or degree—a concern beggar is both absurd and inhumane. I will come back to—and their quality or operation. For a number of reasons there is a particular desire I agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord at the moment in councils to effect a kind of cleaning Clement-Jones, said about PSPOs, the examples given up of our towns and cities. Teignmouth, for example, and about changes to statutory guidance. PSPOs are cites holidaymakers and Oxford’s implicit concern is horrendous. In the manner in which they are being for tourists. None of us likes to see rough sleepers on applied, they seem to vary from the ludicrous to the the street because it makes us uncomfortable. But I sinister to the blatantly inhumane. As the noble Lord would prefer that they are there, in recognition perhaps said, the ludicrous include bans on people lying down of a problem so far unsolved, rather than being swept in parks or carrying golf clubs. The sinister include under the carpet, pushed off into another borough, or, bans which limit freedom of expression and the right worse still, criminalised. to protest and bans on the gathering of groups of two or more people, such as in Hillingdon and Guildford, In an article in the Guardian in May of last year, and on live music, the handing out of free literature Matt Downie of Crisis said: and blanket bans on amplification. “Rough sleepers deserve better than to be treated as a nuisance”. There is a randomness about these orders that has There is that term, “nuisance”, again. He continued: nothing to do with what I would regard as real or respectable law, but there is also a targeting involved “They may have suffered a relationship breakdown, a bereavement or domestic abuse. Instead, people need long-term, dedicated which reveals blatant unfairness in them. In a BBC support to move away from the streets for good”. interview in Hillingdon in March this year with a group of teenagers about the ban on groups of two or Hackney Council’s announcement last year of its more—I am not sure the interview itself was strictly order applying to rough sleepers and street drinkers legal—one of them said very reasonably, “You know stated that, that if there is a group of elderly people standing “enforcement is always the last option”. there”—meaning within the bounds of a particular The “last option”: when should the criminalisation of shopping centre—“they will not get fined”. This, then, rough sleepers ever be an option? On this occasion, will be law used as it suits the local council. after a sustained, celebrity-backed campaign, the council As an example, I refer to a particular PSPO that, in saw reason, although unfortunately this has not been the words of Liberty on 31 August, the case with all other councils who have introduced “has taken full advantage of this vague power by seemingly PSPOs. banning everything”. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation report, The Social This is Teignbridge District Council’s PSPO for Dawlish Value of Public Spaces from 2007, made the valid of 14 June. It is a detailed six-page document making point that not everybody is equal in public spaces. It it illegal to, cites the example of local parks being used by young “act in a manner as to cause annoyance … to any person”. people for hanging out or by groups of street drinkers. In the absence of other facilities or spaces, it says that, It also states that, “this might be regarded as legitimate, as long as no harm is “the purpose of the PSPO is to deal with a particular nuisance … caused to others”. in a particular area”. I emphasise “nuisance”and “annoyance”. The Minister The fact is that to a certain extent public space is may recall that on 8 January 2014 in this House, at the messy because people are messy. Report stage of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and I want to make a point here, too, about street Policing Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Dear, tabled an drinking, which I think shows not just how culturally amendment that, after a two-hour debate, specifically relative this can be but also what a public space might removed “annoyance” and “nuisance” for injunctions. include. In Berlin, for example, drinking on the streets I believe that the amendment did not cover PSPOs but and on trains, particularly late at night at the weekend— I am raising the matter of whether it should have. that is, quaffing from beer and wine bottles—is socially Causing harassment, alarm or distress is quite a long absolutely acceptable and wholly unaccompanied by GC 155 Anti-social Behaviour [LORDS] Anti-social Behaviour GC 156

[THE EARL OF CLANCARTY] and social housing providers. These offences were violence. It is something that you see all classes of designed to deal with the sort of offences that can people doing and it is an accepted aspect of their city upset residents and cause problems and which can space. quickly destroy people’s quality of life. If left unchecked, Ultimately, my preference for PSPOs—indeed for these problems can lead to the risk of more serious the Anti-social Behaviour Act itself—is that the legislation offences being committed. The noble Lord, Lord should be repealed, though I appreciate that this might Clement-Jones, asks what is being done to ensure that be asking too much of the present Government. I say these powers are used in an accountable, proportionate this because prosecutions involving harm of one person and appropriate manner, with a particular emphasis against another should be based on the law of the on live music, busking and so on. land, whatever the environment it takes place in, not We all want to live in areas that are safe and free on the use to which public space is put, since such from fear, so ensuring that powers are invoked properly legislation in practice has been geared in favour of is all about striking the right balance—that is the particular users over others and drives a wedge between important thing here. We need to work with local perceived victims and perceived aggressors. Such communities and look at some of the powers here. For legislation, as we are seeing, does not in effect respect example, the public spaces protection order was meant the potential for public space to develop organically to deal with groups of youths out at night, drinking but limits it. and causing trouble, playing loud music on radios and Finally, there is real concern that PSPOs are being annoying people. It was not intended to deal with used to clean up an area prior to its being sold off. people enjoying themselves in the park and so on. I am That privatisation of our public space, particularly in quite worried now, because I quite like going to city centres, has already been a significant long-term Blackheath, lying on the grass with my friends and trend is undeniable, as Anna Minton forcefully describes having a beer. It was never the intention to stop such in her book Ground Control: Fear and Happiness in the things and it is ridiculous that anyone would suggest Twenty-First-Century City. This issue has not yet properly that they should be stopped. We want to ensure that surfaced as a major public concern, in part because all these things are done proportionately, like live many spaces which are privately owned have the surface music, busking and the sort of things that people do appearance of being public—for example, the frankly with their friends and family in the park and elsewhere, sterile, privately owned public spaces, or POPs, where should never be banned. We all live together, and we PSPOs do not apply, such as the More London estate need to make sure that we live properly, so the list is which surrounds City Hall, where neither protesting ridiculous. nor filming is allowed, full stop. With continuing austerity and the starving of funds for councils this The noble Lord was also right to say that you process may well be accelerating. This is the worst-case should not be able to find a council officer who can scenario: that the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and sign a piece of paper to ban something; it should at Policing Act becomes irrelevant, for all the wrong least come before elected members of the authority, or reasons. the mayor and the cabinet should decide that, and it should possibly be able to be challenged in the local We badly need an audit of public spaces in this magistrates’ court as well. The fact that a council country. True public space in its different forms is an officer can ban these activities means that the whole important if underestimated democratic right, and council itself will get lambasted for doing ridiculous this is now such a critical concern that there is a case to things. I will certainly go back and check that my be made for a Minister of public space, although that council has not done anything stupid and banned is a debate for another day. something I do not know about, and if it has I will try to get it changed. 1.22 pm The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, asked whether Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab): My Lords, I people could be banned for being annoying or a declare that I am a councillor in the London Borough nuisance. I am sure we are all annoying and a nuisance of Lewisham. We have had two excellent contributions. to other people so we could all be banned on that I am pleased that at least they did not mention Lewisham basis. Again, this seems completely ridiculous. Council in that list of ridiculous decisions that have been taken by many authorities. I will certainly go I started a debate last night in the Chamber on back and check that my council has not done some of homelessness in which we talked about rough sleepers. the stupid things that it was suggested have been done. We all know that the homeless can have mental health That was clearly never the intention and it is absolutely issues and drink and other problems but these people ridiculous. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Clement- need help, not to be banned and moved on elsewhere. Jones, on securing this Question for Short Debate That, again, is ridiculous. today. It is good to be back debating with the noble I shall leave my remarks there. I hope the Minister Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford. It is a bit strange can give a full response to the noble Lord. There are that we will not mention housing, or the housing other bits of this order on different things. Maybe the regulations in the Housing and Planning Act, but it is Minister could write to us having looked at the more good to be here today. criminal things that people can do. What are the As we have heard, the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime mechanisms for reviewing this and the six powers? and Policing Act 2014 replaced a number of mechanisms There are unintended consequences with some of these for dealing with anti-social behaviour with six new things. We must have mechanisms to change them and powers, which are shared between police, local authorities stop them. GC 157 Anti-social Behaviour [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Anti-social Behaviour GC 158

1.26 pm Manifesto Club to discuss its findings and see what its primary concerns are about PSPOs. It is important The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams that PSPOs and the other anti-social behaviour powers of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, I thank all three are used to deal with anti-social behaviour problems, distinguished noble Lords who have taken part in this rather than introduce blanket bans, to which the noble debate. I am very glad to be back with the noble Lord, Lord referred. Lord Clement-Jones, because on a number of occasions we have discussed busking and how much we enjoy Noble Lords also referred to the democratic aspect hearing buskers, particularly the ones in and around of this, with examples of single officials making decisions. Westminster and further around London. Busking is We are examining that in the review of the statutory very positive for community life and that is why this is guidance. We have also discussed such concerns with an important debate. Anti-social behaviour as we know the Local Government Association. The noble Lord it can blight the lives of communities, but there is talked about PSPOs targeting activities that are not widespread interest, not least from this House, in the actually harmful in themselves. The Government’s powers available to the police and local councils to position is absolutely clear: anti-social behaviour powers respond to such things being used properly. This debate are there to protect law-abiding people and enable is timely. people to enjoy public spaces and feel safe in their homes.They are not there to restrict reasonable behaviour, The Government’s starting point is that there is a as I said, or activities that are not actually causing clear recognition of the serious impact that anti-social anti-social behaviour. There are legal safeguards in behaviour can have on ordinary people’s lives. That is place and we will look again at the statutory guidance. why the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing PSPOs are useful powers for councils but need to be Act 2014 gave the police, local councils and other used proportionately. It is critical that councils are agencies the powers that they need to take swift and able to respond to problems such as street drinking effective action to protect the communities they serve. and aggressive begging, because these kinds of behaviours The Government are also clear that anti-social have detrimental effects on a community’s way of life. behaviour powers are there to protect the activities of The noble Lord also talked about the consultation the law-abiding majority, to enable people to enjoy process. It is clear that a council may make a PSPO their public spaces and feel safe in their homes. They only after it has consulted the police, but it must also are not there to be used to restrict reasonable behaviour consult any other interested community representatives and activities not causing anti-social behaviour, as all it considers appropriate. It is for councils to determine noble Lords pointed out. That is why the Act contains how best to consult, but there will be learning from legal safeguards before the powers can be used. However, across various councils; that will come out in the we have said that we will look again at the statutory review process. We want to capture that learning as we guidance on the use of the powers that the Home undertake the review. The noble Lord asked specifically Office published to help emphasise these points. what has been proposed to change the guidance. We The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said that are developing a case-study document, as I said. We despite ministerial assurances, PSPOs are being used will write to the noble Lord on the proposed changes in an inappropriate and disproportionate way. As I when we review the statutory guidance. said, there are clear legal tests for the use of the power. The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, talked about The statutory guidance references the need for councils homelessness. He brought up a very good point. The to consult whenever community representatives and Government are committed to tackling and reducing regular users of the public space think it appropriate homelessness. We do not want homeless people to be and specifically references buskers and street entertainers. used as a target. Anti-social behaviour orders are not Following the noble Lord’s Oral Question this February, to be used to tackle the most vulnerable people in our the former Minister for Preventing Abuse, Exploitation society. They are there purely to deal with anti-social and Crime gave a commitment to revisit the statutory behaviour. guidance. We are reviewing it to see how we can strengthen it to ensure proportionality in the use of There have been some specific—and, I might say, the powers and accountability, which is very important. slightly comical, although I do not mean that flippantly— The work is under way, so the pens are on the paper, examples of how councils have used their anti-social and officials are consulting front-line practitioners. behaviour powers to deal with certain things. Some are almost unbelievable, but I do not disbelieve the We will write to the noble Lord and other interested noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. I quickly checked noble Lords on the proposed revisions once the work on Lewisham and it is not on the red alert list. However, has progressed further. We will complete the work as I do not want to draw on the specific examples. How soon as we can. We are also working with front-line the orders are framed is one issue. Their purpose must practitioners to develop a case-study document to not be to restrict reasonable behaviour. The PSPO is highlight effective practice and appropriate use of the there to tackle behaviour that is having a detrimental powers. I say again that it is a useful power but should effect on people’slives and is persistent and unreasonable. be used proportionately to deal with a particular That is quite clear. Those are the tests set out in anti-social behaviour problem in a particular area by legislation and they must be met before an order can imposing reasonable restrictions. That is critical here. be made. There are also issues about how they are The noble Lord also talked about the wider problem— enforced—again, it must be in a proportionate and not just buskers and street entertainers are affected. reasonable way. I am grateful to the noble Lord for He referenced the Manifesto Club’s report on PSPOs, setting out some potential solutions, and we will look as I think did the noble Earl. Officials have met the very carefully at the points that he made. GC 159 Anti-social Behaviour[LORDS] Universal Declaration of Human Rights GC 160

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] original Bill. That is a fast ball of a question for the It is important that we do not go too far in restricting Minister, but she should take that into consideration the freedom of local partners to take effective enforcement when the statutory guidance is being looked at. action, but I do not think that that is what he is suggesting. We know that there are examples of good Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Lord practice in councils and I want to place on record my makes a constructive point: it is all about getting the praise for them. In refreshing the guidance, I hope that balance right. Anti-social behaviour can and does if we have another debate on this this time next year, destroy some people’s lives, but by the same token we will see that it has been greatly strengthened and some of the examples he has given are utterly ridiculous probably helped by the questions put by noble Lords, and in no way could be construed as anti-social behaviour. in particular those of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. We needed to deal with anti-social behaviour, but only I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to the in a proportionate way. I am sure that the noble Lord debate. will look at the guidance and give his opinion on it in due course. I thank all noble Lords. The Earl of Clancarty: Does the noble Baroness have anything to say about the terms “nuisance” and 1.39 pm “annoyance”? As I said in my speech, the way that PSPOs are being applied shows that they are being Sitting suspended. used very much as a lever.

Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Earl made Universal Declaration of Human Rights a good point; I hope that I covered it when addressing Question for Short Debate the speeches of other noble Lords. There has to be proportionality in this. “Nuisance and annoyance” 2 pm could be someone walking their dog, but clearly that would not be proportionate. I think that that is what Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool the refreshed guidance will cover, and I will be pleased To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps to hear from the noble Earl if he thinks that we have they are taking to promote Article 18 of the Universal not struck the balance right. Indeed, one person’s Declaration of Human Rights. nuisance is something that another person does not even notice. I thank him for his comments. Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, in welcoming Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I was quite shocked by the Minister to her fairly new responsibilities, the the list set out by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, lodestar in today’s short debate is Article 18 of the 1948 but I am pleased that he brought it to our attention. Universal Declaration of Human Rights, promulgated The examples are absolutely ridiculous. It is important in the aftermath of the defining horrors of the Holocaust to get the guidance right because clearly one problem and in a century during which 100 million people with PSPOs has been that they can come down to, “I were murdered because they chose in some way to be don’t like that, so it has to be banned”. When the new different. Today Article 18 is honoured only in its guidance comes out, it will have to be very clear and breach. In the light of new genocides, concentration state, “These things are not a nuisance”, with examples camps, abductions, rape, forced conversions, forced of what PSPOs can and cannot be used for. marriages, imprisonment, persecution, public floggings, enslavement, mass murder, beheadings and the vast displacement of millions of people, we should ask Baroness Williams of Trafford: I will not pre-empt ourselves: of what value are such declarations or the guidance, which has not yet been written, but the conventions on genocide if they can be utterly disregarded noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, brought up some with indifference and contempt? ridiculous interpretations of the orders. We duly note Let us look at the evidence. The annual Pew study what he said and the councils he mentioned and I am of religious freedom found that in 24% of countries, in sure that those examples will be taken into account. It which 74% of the world’s population lives, there were is always dangerous to get too prescriptive because serious restrictions on religious freedom. One-quarter that then allows wriggle room the other way. But we of the world’s countries have blasphemy laws and will firm up the guidance and refer back to noble more than one in 10 have laws penalising apostasy. Lords. This has led, for instance, to a death sentence in the case of Pakistan’s Asia Bibi; to the public beating of Lord Clement-Jones: I hope that the Minister will Saudi Arabia’s atheist Raif Badawi; to the imprisonment accept that the essence of this is to try to get the for 10 years in Iran of Saeed Abedini, for “undermining statutory guidance in the right shape. However, I hope national security” after hosting Christian gatherings she will accept that there is an underlying issue about in his home; to Chinese Catholics such as Bishop the definition of anti-social behaviour because if the Cosma Shi Enxiang, who died at 94 after spending statutory guidance even after being amended does not half his life in prison; and to Chinese Protestants, who do the trick, it calls into question whether the original since the beginning of 2016, have seen 49 of their definition referred to by the noble Earl is right or churches defaced or destroyed, crosses removed and a whether it should be tightened up as per the discussion pastor’s wife crushed to death in the rubble as she with the noble Lord, Lord Dear, at Report on the pleaded with the authorities to desist. Earlier this GC 161 Universal Declaration of Human Rights[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Universal Declaration of Human Rights GC 162 week, on Tuesday, Mr Speaker hosted the premiere of the European Parliament and others have declared events “The Bleeding Edge”, drawing attention to the harvesting in Syria and Iraq to be genocide. of organs of Falun Gong practitioners in China. In a leading article, the Times said that the destruction In countries such as Nigeria, Sudan and Kenya, of Christians from the Middle East, contempt for Article 18 has led to the targeting and “now amounts to nothing less than genocide … That crime, most murder of Christians, Yazidis and others by ISIS, the hideously demonstrated by the Nazis, now enjoins others to take Taliban, al-Shabaab and Boko Haram. In North Korea, active steps to protect the victims”. a country I have visited four times, 300,000 people are Writing in the Daily Telegraph, the right honourable incarcerated in gulags. A United Nations report describes Boris Johnson said that ISIS is, it as a country “without parallel” and highlights the “engaged in what can only be called genocide … though for some execution and imprisonment of Christians. baffling reason the Foreign Office still hesitates to use the term I have seen contempt for Article 18 in many other genocide”. situations: among Rohingya Muslims persecuted in Perhaps when she comes to reply, the Minister will Burma; in degrading detention centres in south-east ease Mr Johnson’s bafflement and tell us why the Asia where fleeing Pakistani Christians and Ahmadis Government still fail to name this genocide for what it are incarcerated; and at its bloodiest worst among is, or to table resolutions in either the General Assembly Chaldean and Assyrian Christians and Yazidis fleeing or the Security Council seeking a referral to the the genocide in Syria and Iraq. Yet, for fear of offending International Criminal Court, or to help establish a countries such as Saudi Arabia, which have exported regional tribunal to try those responsible. Great nations so much of the poison, we rarely call things what they should not sign conventions or affirm declarations are. such as Article 18 and then fail to uphold them. In Pakistan, for example, the Government describe The Minister might also tell us why DfID fails to events as “discrimination” and refuses to recognise recognise Christians and Yazidis as “vulnerable” under them as persecution. Over the summer I was guest of the criteria for aid and whether it has assessed the honour at Liverpool’s refurbished Pakistan centre. It reports that Christians and other minorities are too was a wonderful evening of celebration. Pakistan’s frightened to enter the refugee camps and have even green and white flag was designed to represent the been targeted again when they reach Europe. green of Islam and the white of the minorities. In ISIS works in a consistent manner, killing men, 1947, Pakistan’sgreat statesman and founder,Muhammad women and children, but also destroying their holy Ali Jinnah, crafted a constitution which promised to places, doing its utmost to eradicate any collective uphold plurality and diversity and to protect all citizens. memory of a people’s very existence. While the ISIS Jinnah said: genocide in Syria and Iraq may simply be seen as “You may belong to any religion, caste or creed—that has inhumane butchery, it is fundamentally an attack on nothing to do with the business of the State. Minorities, to freedom of conscience and belief. whichever community they may belong, will be safeguarded. Our failure to prevent, protect and punish contributes Their religion, faith or belief will be secure. There will be no directly to the refugee crisis. There are 55 million interference of any kind with their freedom of worship. They will have their protection with regard to their religion, faith, their life people now living as refugees, asylum seekers or internally and their culture. They will be, in all respects, the citizens of displaced persons, with a further 60 million people Pakistan without any distinction of caste and creed”. forcibly displaced. Conversely, in those countries that However, whether judged against the backdrop of the promote freedom of religion or belief, there is a direct assassination five years ago of the country’s Christian correlation with prosperity and the contentment and Minister for Minority Affairs, Shahbaz Bhatti, who happiness of the populace. questioned the blasphemy laws, or the orgy of bombings, HowrightistheBBC’scourageouschief correspondent, killings, rapes, imprisonment and abductions, notably Lyse Doucet, when she says: in Lahore, Pakistan has allowed the systematic targeting “If you don’t understand religion—including the abuse of of religious minorities in a culture of impunity. This religion—it’s becoming ever harder to understand our world”. persecution is catalogued in a report that I launched in But western Governments are often illiterate when it Parliament. comes to religious faith. We just call it “terror” and One escapee recounted how his friend Basil, a pastor’s have developed a worrying, timid moral equivalence, son, was targeted by Pakistani Islamists attempting to refusing to call evil by its name for fear of giving convert him. After refusing, his home was set alight. offence. Basil, his wife and 18 month-old daughter were burned Although I welcome strongly the Article 18 conference, alive. No one was brought to justice and there is little which the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will evidence that Pakistan is striving to uphold Jinnah’s host in October and which I hope the Minister will be admirable vision. Perhaps the Minister, when she comes able to tell us more about, does the FCO still have only to reply, will tell us how the more than £1 billion of one desk officer dedicated to Article 18 issues? Learning British aid, given over the past two years, is doing to live together in respect and tolerance, whether we anything to support Pakistan’s beleaguered minorities, have a religious faith or not, is truly the great challenge often the poorest of the poor, or to promote religious of our times. Scholars, the media and policymakers freedom or peaceful coexistence. need to promote far greater religious literacy and The UK fails to name persecution for what it is shape different priorities. and, even worse, to name genocide for what it is. The life-and-death urgency that this task represents Words matter: they determine priorities and policies. was starkly underlined by the recent execution of the The House of Commons, the United States Congress, 84 year-old French priest Father Jacques Hamel, and GC 163 Universal Declaration of Human Rights[LORDS] Universal Declaration of Human Rights GC 164

[LORD ALTON OF LIVERPOOL] to the promotion and protection of Article 18 in by the murder of the Glasgow shopkeeper Asad Shah, Commonwealth countries? What focus will human who often reached out to his Christian neighbours rights and Article 18 have at the Commonwealth and customers. Tanveer Ahmed allegedly drove up Heads of Government Meeting in spring 2018, to be from Bradford to kill Mr Shah because he said that he held here in the UK, and for the two years following was disrespectful of Islam. Mr Shah was an Ahmadi. when we will chair the Commonwealth? I also hope In Pakistan, millions of Ahmadis are denied citizenship that Her Majesty’s Government will make time available and 10,000 have fled this year. Now it seems that they for a lengthy debate in your Lordships’ House on the are to be targeted in Britain too. UK’s future strategic plan to engage with the If Jews, Muslims, Christians, atheists and others Commonwealth. are no longer to see one another as an existential While the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is threat, we must provide an alternative narrative, based looking to strengthen rules-based international systems on Article 18, capable of forestalling the unceasing on human rights, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, incitements to hatred which especially pour from the it is no longer enough to rely on international compliance internet and which capture unformed minds. with human rights instruments as an effective mechanism Britain, for all its faults, is a society in which for human rights implementation, not least because it adulterers are not flogged, gays are not executed, can serve as a smokescreen for only prima facie safety women are not stoned for not being veiled, churches compliance. As we can see across the globe today, this are not burned, so-called apostates had not, until is at the expense of ensuring that human rights and, recently, been killed, and non-believers are not forced more specifically, freedom of religion or belief, are to convert or treated as “dhimmis” or second-class accessible and meaningful to the individuals who bear citizens. In thanking all noble Lords for participating those rights. in today’s short debate, I conclude by saying that we Unlike the EU,or indeed the UN, the Commonwealth should be proud of the freedoms we enjoy and must has no binding formal obligations. Rather, its channels work hard to achieve the same freedoms for all. In that are considered informal and relaxed but none the less task, Article 18 must remain our lodestar. effective. Will my noble friend confirm that the new £400 million soft power fund will be open to projects 2.10 pm to promote and protect freedom of religion or belief and other human rights in the Commonwealth? This Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, I am grateful neglected, multifaith network is vital to the UK’s future to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for securing today’s trade, diplomacy and human rights work. My noble debate and draw attention to my interests in the register. friend Lord Howell previously called the Commonwealth Only yesterday, at an event hosted by the noble the soft power network of the future but, in the light Lord, Lord Oates, the new UN special rapporteur, of Brexit, it is the soft power network of today. Dr Shaheed stated: “Freedom of religion or belief is in crisis”. 2.14 pm Last July, my noble friend Lady Anelay stated: “Freedom of religion or belief is not just an optional extra, or Lord Clarke of Hampstead (Lab): My Lords I, too, nice to have; it is the key human right”.—[Official Report, 16/7/15; thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for securing this col. 599.] short debate and pay tribute to him for his continuing This is crucial now that the UK itself is entering a new mission to give voice to the persecuted minorities of era of human rights and freedom of religion and many faiths in our troubled world. In the few minutes belief post-Brexit. While the major focus is on Brexit available, I will focus on the situation in Iran—a truly and trade, the UK will no longer be part of the human dreadful situation that goes on and on. I should add rights diplomacy of the EU and the EAS, so we need that it is now 30 years since I first got involved in to look elsewhere to replace this avenue. The warmth trying to get our Government to talk at the United of the embrace given our Prime Minister by the Prime Nations about the persecution of minorities and the Minister of Australia at the recent G20 summit gives abuse of human rights in that country. us the obvious answer: the Commonwealth. Once again, we are discussing the persecution of As my noble friend Lady Anelay is also now the religious minorities. This debate is very important, but Minister responsible for the Commonwealth in Her I and many colleagues in both Houses believe that it Majesty’s Government, this gives your Lordships’House should not be a substitute for concrete action to end a key role in engaging with this institution. Section 4 systematic persecution. of the Commonwealth charter 2013 for the first The persecution of Christians, Baha’is and Sunni time references freedom of religion and belief in a Muslims in Iran cannot be denied. It is well documented, Commonwealth instrument and, on 22 January, in a and the Government and the FCO point to this in Written Answer, Her Majesty’s Government stated: their latest Human Rights Priority Country update, “We will also continue to encourage Commonwealth partners published in July. It said: to embrace the values set out in the Commonwealth Charter, “The Iranian constitution only formally recognises 3 religions including the freedom of religion or belief. We also look forward other than Islam: Christianity,Judaism and Zoroastrianism. Despite to discussing freedom of religion and other issues with the new this, minority religions, and even non-Shi’a Muslims, face persecution Commonwealth Secretary General when she takes up office in and harassment in Iran”. April”. On 5 August the United Nations High Commissioner Has my noble friend Lady Anelay indeed met the for Human Rights, Zeid Ra’ad Al Hussein, condemned Commonwealth Secretary-General, the noble and learned the execution of 20 Sunni Muslims in Iran. It was Baroness, Lady Scotland, to discuss the UK’s approach deplored that: GC 165 Universal Declaration of Human Rights[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Universal Declaration of Human Rights GC 166

“In many of the cases, there were serious doubts about the Lord Clarke, has said. I hope that by both of us fairness of the trials, respect for due process and other rights of speaking on this issue this point will be addressed; the accused”. namely, concerns about Iran. Iran has been identified Christian communities in Iran are not allowed to as one of the worst countries in the world. Article 18, build their own churches. They are forced to turn their which sets out the right to believe, not to believe, or to homes into churches for their congregations. These change your belief, is broken every day in Iran, which in-house churches are repeated targets for the Iranian last year executed almost 1,000 people because of Revolutionary Guard and plain-clothes agents of the their religious or political beliefs. The recent upgrading intelligence ministry. On 12 August, 11 Christians of our relations with Iran is most puzzling in the light were arrested during a raid at an in-house church in of consistent human rights violations. the city of Isfahan. Several days later, five converted It is especially concerning that the Christian community Christians were arrested. They were all charged with in Iran is so much under attack. Christians in Iran are bogus national security allegations, similar charges to prevented from openly exercising their beliefs or promoting those used by the Iranian authorities to justify the their religion. It has also been highlighted that Baha’is arrest and detention of British dual nationals in Iran. are being executed, tortured or imprisoned in great The Baha’i religion is not even recognised by the numbers. Christians are criticised as illegal and authorities in Iran. The Baha’i are hence deprived of systematically harassed and intimidated. Iran is one of their most fundamental rights and constantly harassed. the world’s 10 most inhospitable countries for Christians It is essential to understand that the deteriorating and those of other beliefs. human-rights situation in Iran, including the persecution It is right that this matter should be addressed. of religious minorities for the past three decades, is a Looking at Iran, we see that many of those who direct consequence of the culture of impunity enjoyed committed the 1988 massacre of political prisoners by the perpetrators. are still very much in charge so it would be naive to In this context, it is worth noting and highlighting think there will be any change unless the international the massacre of 30,000 political prisoners in Iran in community raises the cost for the Iranian authorities 1988, which for 28 years was overlooked by the West of committing these atrocities against members of and the international community, and it still is. New religious minorities and ordinary citizens. I urge the revelations from a recently released audio file and Government to publicly demand the prosecution of informationexposedbytheIraniandemocraticopposition, those who are known to have committed the 1988 the NCRI, show that at least 59 of those officials massacre and impose sanctions on the identified responsible at the time are today holding senior and perpetrators for their role in the systematic abuse at ministerial positions in Iran, including the Supreme that time. Leader Khamenei and the Justice Minister of President Like my colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Clarke, I Rouhani’s cabinet, Mostafa Pourmohammadi. This am very interested in Iran and have been to the many shows that those actively involved in oppression of international events that have been held. I urge the people and annihilation of dissidents are rewarded Government to listen to Maryam Rajavi, who symbolises rather than held accountable. Minister Pourmohammadi interfaith harmony between Christians and Muslims recently said of his role in the 1988 massacre, “We take in that country, and to examine her 10-point democratic pride in eliminating those who wage a war against God”. platform. Her plan, absolutely required in Iran, is also If our aim is to improve the situation of religious a possible route for many other countries. I hold it in minorities in Iran, the best approach by our Government great regard, and we in this country should support is to take a lead on the global scene and make the what she says and its implementation in Iran. perpetrators of the 1988 massacre accountable before an international tribunal. These officials are those who oppose religious minorities. In November last 2.23 pm year the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, speaking at the Lord Hope of Craighead (CB): My Lords, I, too, UN General Assembly’s Third Committee about the thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for securing this progress in human rights, said that it was high time for debate, and for his tireless search for a solution to the words to be translated into actions. May I respectfully problem of promoting universal adherence to the ask the Minister that her words be pursued more principles that underlie this article. Reduced to its forcibly in the coming weeks and months, whenever simplest terms, Article 18 seeks to protect two inalienable the opportunity arises? rights. The first is the right to freedom of religion or belief itself. The second is the right to manifest that religion or belief in whatever way one chooses. Without 2.19 pm the first one cannot have the second, and so it is the Lord Cotter (LD): My Lords, I thank the noble threats to the first that are of the greatest concern. Lord, Lord Alton, for securing this debate. There are They are legion, and they affect every faith. many areas of concern about the implementation and The question is: what can be done to eradicate promotion of Article 18 of the Universal Declaration violations of the article? As a lawyer, I would love to of Human Rights. The key point is that it is an essential think that there was a legal base for the article so that component of the UN charter, from the UN’s original it could be enforced. After all, rights are not really formation when the United Nations Assembly was rights unless the person whose rights are being infringed conceived. It is very important because of that. has access to a remedy. Two examples come to mind of There are many parts of the world where Article 18 legal bases which are to be found in other human is not respected but I want to speak about one country rights instruments.There is the 1950 European Convention in particular and support what the noble Lord, on Human Rights, Article 9 of which is a mirror GC 167 Universal Declaration of Human Rights[LORDS] Universal Declaration of Human Rights GC 168

[LORD HOPE OF CRAIGHEAD] freedom of religion or belief, and in his address he set image of what we see in Article 18. As everyone out the basis on which the new state of Pakistan was knows, Section 2 of that convention set up the European to be founded. In particular, he forcefully defended the Court of Human Rights with jurisdiction to say what right of minorities to be protected and to have their its articles mean, to receive applications from individuals beliefs respected, saying: and to provide just satisfaction if there has been a “Minorities, to whichever community they may belong, will be violation. That mechanism was practicable within a safeguarded. Their religion, faith or belief will be secure”. small group of relatively like-minded nations such as Today,however,minorities do not have the safeguards we have in Europe, but we have to face the fact that it he spoke of and from current trends it appears that the would have been beyond the reach of the universal realisation of Article 18 in Pakistan may become a convention, which was designed to apply across the distant dream. One area that is exacerbating the situation entire world. So it is not there. for minorities are the curricula and public school The other example is the 1984 torture convention. textbooks, which contain indoctrinating teachings against It was entered into having regard to Article 5 of the minorities. There is considerable evidence that many universal declaration—so there is a link there—and children from religious minority backgrounds are Article 7 of the International Covenant on Civil and discriminated against in schools and some do not Political Rights, both of which provide that no one attend at all due to a culture of intolerance and hatred shall be subjected to torture. Article 4 of the torture against them within classrooms. The United States convention provides: Commission on International Religious Freedom has “Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are highlighted issues with many textbooks used in Pakistan, offences under its criminal law”. which are sowing discord and animosity against minorities. Article 5 provides: Its major findings are that the content of Pakistani “Each State Party shall take such measures as may be necessary public school textbooks related to non-Islamic faiths to establish its jurisdiction over the offences referred to in article 4”, and non-Muslims continues to teach bias, distrust and where, among other things, inferiority. This perhaps provides some explanation of “the victim is a national of that state”. the deteriorating state of religious freedom in Pakistan However, the convention goes even further than that. today. It requires, Considering that over 30% of DfID’s aid to Pakistan “any State Party in whose territory a person alleged to have is allocated towards education, it is important to ensure committed any offence … is present shall take him into custody”, that Her Majesty’s Government do not in any way and to prosecute him there; failing which, to extradite contribute towards perpetuating the negative portrayal him to the state of which the victim is a national so of religious minorities and the incitement of intolerance that he can be prosecuted in that country. We in this and hatred. Instead, we must ensure that we support country, as many will remember, were asked to give vulnerable children from religious minority backgrounds effect to our obligations under that convention in the and address the discrimination or persecution they case of Senator Pinochet by extraditing him to Spain may face. Not only would this help encourage more so that he could be prosecuted there for acts of torture students into education but it would contribute to committed in his own country but perpetrated against building peace and stability while countering prospective Spanish nationals, although he was able to escape radicalisation. It is imperative that that these curricula from the consequences on grounds of ill health. and the culture are reformed to ensure that a generation of children are not brought up with a skewed and The Question which the noble Lord asks is directed intolerant attitude to religious minorities as this provides to the Government. In the absence of a mechanism fertile conditions for radicalisation. such as those to which I have referred, which would enable breaches of the article to be brought before a Inevitably, the manifestation of intolerant attitudes court, it surely is the Government’s responsibility to will further inflame an environment which is already do all they can to eliminate the appalling violations to hostile towards minorities. It will further degrade the which other noble Lords have referred. But perhaps fragile condition of freedom of religion or belief in the time has come for someone to develop the idea Pakistan. Thus we must ensure that we are doing of a freedom of religion convention along the lines of everything we can to bring about cultural change in that which was devised to address the problem of Pakistan in order fully to respect Article 18. torture. Wecannot go on just talking about the problem. Something more fundamental needs to be done. I ask 2.30 pm the Minister to at least take this suggestion away for Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB): My Lords, I also further thought and consideration. offer my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for initiating this important debate and for the vast amount 2.27 pm of work he does in this field. All too often, debates Lord Suri (Con): My Lords, Pakistan is a country and questions in this House describe the appalling that has prevalent issues in its adherence to Article 18 treatment of religious minorities across the world. of the UDHR. Today, minorities are subject to forced Unfortunately, the response from government is in my conversions and marriages, blasphemy laws and even view far from even-handed. The world, it seems, is still rape. The current situation is a sad state of affairs seen in terms of friendly countries to be spoken to when we consider Muhammad Ali Jinnah’s speech to quietly, if at all, and the characterisation of those who the New Delhi Press Club in 1947 which pre-empted are not dependent on us for trade or strategic influence the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. He as nasty regimes to be condemned in the most strident highlighted the importance of religious pluralism and terms. GC 169 Universal Declaration of Human Rights[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Universal Declaration of Human Rights GC 170

Let me give an example. In 2014, the Government meeting human rights lawyers, aid workers, journalists described the human rights record of the Sri Lankan and other activists who investigate atrocities. I recall Government as “appalling”and called for an international houses burnt down, Dalits raped or murdered, young inquiry. I asked whether the Government would press Adivasis made to worship and become prostitutes, for a similar inquiry into the Government-led massacre and the daily humiliation of millions of Dalits who of thousands of Sikhs in India. The short, sharp carry out the most menial tasks. The responsibility for response was that it was “a matter for the Indian these crimes may lie with their employers or their Government”. Why the lack of even-handedness? I higher-caste neighbours, but they are almost always have asked the same question several times both in the condoned by people in authority—village leaders, police Chamber and in Questions for Written Answer, but and even judges. always to no effect. On the last occasion, some six months We think of the Hindu and Sikh caste system but ago, I was promised a considered reply from the Minister, Dalits belong to every religion and they are abused, but I am still waiting for it. persecuted and killed by their own people, often for In France today, Sikhs are being humiliated by petty reasons of long-outdated customs and prejudices. being asked to remove their turbans for identity photos Muslims and Christian Dalits are a persecuted minority in defiance of a UNHCR court ruling that the actions within a minority and they are victimised by other of the French Government are an infringement of the Muslims and Christians. I am glad to say that there is rights of Sikhs under Article 18. There was no mention a vast international network of NGOs and individuals of this in our Government’srecent report on human rights dedicated to this campaign and some MPs in India abuses across the world. France, after all, is a “friendly” have joined it, although that can also be an electoral country. These examples of religious discrimination bandwagon. Plenty of legislation exists to end are especially hurtful to the followers of a religion in discrimination but it is rarely implemented and few which freedom of belief is considered to be so important politicians take it seriously. However, earlier this year, that our Ninth Guru, Guru Tegh Bahadur, gave his Prime Minister Modi passed minor laws to speed up life defending the right of Hindus, those of a different the judicial process and to support Dalit entrepreneurs. religion from his own, to freedom of worship. These must be welcomed. What is of concern to me and others is that we, like In Nepal, the Kamaiya are a similar group to the other members of what we euphemistically call the Dalits in India. Later this month, I will be there asking Security Council are still living in a world of 19th-century similar questions, although the bonded labour system power politics, a world in which the abuse of human was supposedly banned in 2002. rights was conveniently overlooked in a greed-fuelled On 11 July in Una in Gujarat, four Dalits from a era of strategic alliances. If there are any doubts about sub-caste that skins animals for hides professionally the failure of our power-bloc politics, we should reflect were tied to a car and flogged for skinning two cows on the current tragedy of the Middle East, which that they claimed had died naturally. This caused an began a century ago with the carving up of the former explosion of anger from 10,000 Dalits in Ahmedabad, Ottoman Empire by British and French diplomats. which ended with the dumping of carcasses, roadblocks As a Christian hymn reminds us: and burning buses. A month later, on 15 August, “New occasions teach new duties; Time makes ancient good Prime Minister Modi celebrated India’s70th Independence uncouth; Day in Old Delhi while thousands of Dalits gathered They must upward still, and onward, who would keep abreast in perhaps the largest ever demonstration. Meanwhile, of Truth”. the Government have again proclaimed their commitment The great human rights activist Andrei Sakharov said to changing the system. We will have to see whether that, this is a political move, considering that state elections “there can be no real peace in the world unless we are even-handed take place in Punjab and UP next year. in our attitude to human rights”. We will fail future generations if we do not heed his Finally, I remind the Minister that this issue also far-sighted words. concerns the United Kingdom, whose response to human rights abuse was reviewed only last month by 2.34 pm the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial The Earl of Sandwich (CB): My Lords, it is a Discrimination. While complimenting the UK on its pleasure to follow the noble Lord. My noble friend new legislation on human rights, the committee also Lord Alton has again raised a major question of expressed concern that several provisions of the Equality conscience on a subject that I approach with trepidation. Act 2010 have not yet been brought into legal effect, The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is so including Section 9(5)(a) on caste-based discrimination important that it needs to be read aloud like a catechism. and Section 14 on dual discrimination. I know the Admittedly, we are dealing with only one article today, Equality Act is beyond the scope of this debate and I but it touches millions who are suffering from flagrant only point out that on an issue of such international abuses of human rights, freedom of thought, conscience importance the UK may not be putting its best foot and religion. forward at home, although I recognise, and perhaps I want to look briefly at one aspect of this abuse, the Minister will repeat, that DfID is very well aware which is the condition of the Dalit community worldwide. of the condition of Dalits worldwide. This is an area about which my noble friend has considerable knowledge and is another form of modern 2.38 pm slavery,which this Government say they want to eliminate. Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, I, too, I have visited Dalit communities in Rajasthan, Andhra thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for initiating this Pradesh and elsewhere supported by Christian Aid, debate. It is just under a year since the last short GC 171 Universal Declaration of Human Rights[LORDS] Universal Declaration of Human Rights GC 172

[LORD COLLINS OF HIGHBURY] promote global security and stability. In societies where debate on this topic and since then we have seen the freedom of religion or belief is respected, it is much publication in May of the department’s excellent Human harder for extremist views to take root. The noble Rights and Democracy Report 2015. As noble Lords Lord, Lord Singh, made a very eloquent contribution have done in today’s debate, it highlights the harsh about the value of human rights and the importance reality of the world we live in and the fact that of respecting them. I confirm that the Government countries that do not respect religious freedom or the remain firmly committed to promoting and protecting right to have no belief invariably do not respect other the right to freedom of religion or belief, as set out in basic human rights. I also highlight the horrific acts of Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human genocide in Syria and Iraq. I use the term because, as Rights. The noble Lord made a number of specific reflected by the unanimous decision of the House of points about India, as did the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, Commons, what Daesh is doing has all the hallmarks and I hope I may write to them both about the points of genocide as well as crimes against humanity and that they raised. war crimes. Since the last debate in this House, the Government In the light of previous assurances that we have have continued to work hard to promote and protect received, both in this Committee and in the Chamber, this basic human right. We have done so through what progress are the Government making in gathering bilateral and multilateral engagement, and through evidence? When do they intend to take the evidence to our project work overseas. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, the UN Security Council so that the matter can be asked whether the Foreign and Commonwealth Office referred to the courts and due legal process? has enough staff and raised the important point about The FCO’s thematic approach to human rights having only one desk officer working on freedom of raised concerns about whether the work on freedom of religion or belief. All our foreign and Commonwealth religion or belief would suffer. The noble Baroness, embassies and high commissions are also responsible Lady Anelay, reassured us last year that it would for raising human rights issues in the countries to remain integral to what the Foreign Office does. However, which they are accredited. We believe that these issues how does this work in practice? How will the Minister are best handled by those who understand the individual ensure that the FCO’s spending on freedom of religion concerns and countries in detail, rather than trying to or belief projects under the new Magna Carta fund is do that remotely by a separate policy unit. not reduced any further? We continue to work hard to improve the quality The FCO’s conference on freedom of religion and and range of projects that we support under the belief in October is welcome, too, as is the updating of Magna Carta fund to tackle this whole issue. The the FCO’s current toolkit. However, concerns remain, noble Lord, Lord Collins,in particular made an important as the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, highlighted, point about that: he expressed concern about the fund, over how the Government will ensure that they will asked whether there was enough money in it and keep momentum on freedom of religion and belief sought an assurance that it would not be reduced post-Brexit. Earlier this week we heard that Brexit is further. In the 2015 spending review, the Foreign and about seizing opportunities and putting the national Commonwealth Office more than doubled its annual interest first. If that is so, it is important to be clear funding commitment to the human rights and democracy where those opportunities lie. One area is to hold fund, newly titled the Magna Carta fund, and in different nations to account over their human rights 2016-17 the fund has a budget of £10.6 million compared and freedom of religious belief violations by including with £5 million the previous year. I hope that offers human rights clauses in the trade agreements that the some reassurance. UK will be renegotiating. EU trade policy has increasingly incorporated human rights considerations, and the In Iraq we are promoting legal and social protection Commission’s published trade policy states: for freedom of religion or belief, to prevent intolerance “Trade policy can be a powerful tool to further the advancement and violence towards religious communities. In Syria of human rights in third countries in conjunction with other we are supporting a project that aims to build dialogue EU policies”. between different communities, including between Syrians What reassurances can the Minister give us today of different faiths. In south Asia, working with Christian that the FCO’s important work on human rights and Solidarity Worldwide, we are building a network of freedom of religious belief can be mainstreamed human rights defenders and religious minority leaders throughout the Brexit negotiations across the three across the region. main departments? We need to be serious about human rights not being a constraint on trade but an enabler The noble Lords, Lord Cotter and Lord Suri, raised of it. specific issues about Pakistan. They particularly wanted reassurance that we are attentive to the situation in Pakistan and that we are cognisant of the challenges 2.42 pm in that country. They were two very thoughtful and Baroness Goldie (Con): My Lords, I thank noble eloquent contributions. In March this year, during a Lords for this very thoughtful debate, particularly the visit to Pakistan, the then Foreign Secretary, Philip noble Lord, Lord Alton, not only for securing it but Hammond, raised with the Pakistan Government the for his kind welcome to me, which I much appreciate. importance of safeguarding the rights of all minorities, This is an important issue and I welcome the contributions including religious minorities. In April, Philip Hammond that we have heard today. Support for the freedom of raised UK concerns about religious freedom and human religion or belief is at the heart of the work that the rights with Sartaj Aziz, the adviser to the Prime Minister UK Government do, both at home and abroad, to on foreign affairs. Again, under the Magna Carta GC 173 Universal Declaration of Human Rights[8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Universal Declaration of Human Rights GC 174 fund, we are supporting projects in Pakistan to promote societies. It will be an important forum and if any greater tolerance and religious freedom. So Pakistan Members are interested in attending, I urge them to remains a priority for UK development assistance, contact my office and I will do whatever I can to with programmes to try to improve human rights. facilitate their attendance. The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, asked whether Lord Alton of Liverpool: Before the Minister leaves my noble friend Lady Anelay had met the Commonwealth that point, she will know that we have spent over secretary-general to discuss freedom of religious £1 billion in aid to Pakistan over the last few years. belief. I reassure her that my noble friend has met Can she indicate to us, if not now then perhaps in a the Commonwealth secretary-general on a number letter to those who participated today and raised the of occasions to discuss human rights issues. The issue of Pakistan, how much of that £1 billion has been Commonwealth secretary-general was very keen to be used to promote coexistence,to support these beleaguered involved in this forthcoming conference, which we are minorities and to help those who have been fleeing the holding at the FCO. Sadly, she has another engagement, country and are held in the degrading detention centres but she herself suggested that she participate virtually that I visited last year in south-east Asia? in the conference, and she will be recording a visual message for the event. I hope that reassures my noble friend that there is engagement. Baroness Goldie: I thank the noble Lord for raising that point. I do not have that specific information to The conference will bring together a wide range of hand but I will undertake to try to ascertain it and experts, including from the environments of government, to write to him. business and the media, as well as parliamentarians, lawyers and NGOs, to share best practice and identify In general, we also continue to work closely with opportunities for working together. I am delighted to international partners in the Organisation for Security be able to confirm that the most reverend Primate the and Co-operation in Europe. I am pleased that the Archbishop of Canterbury has agreed to speak, along UK continues to be represented on the Advisory Panel with Sheikh Abdullah Bin Bayyah, who may be known of Experts on Freedom of Religion or Belief by Dr Nazila to some noble Lords, and the UN special rapporteur Ghanea of Oxford University.She follows in the eminent on freedom of religion or belief, Ahmed Shaheed of footsteps of Professor Malcolm Evans of Bristol Essex University. The aim of the conference will be to University. We would like to see the OSCE make provide staff working on human rights at our embassies regular use of that panel. across the world with practical and innovative ideas to The UK Government also supported the meeting help in their work to promote and protect freedom of of the International Panel of Parliamentarians for religion or belief. To that end, we will also be updating Freedom of Religion or Belief that took place last the Foreign and Commonwealth Office freedom of September at the United Nations General Assembly in religion or belief toolkit for staff, which was first New York. That growing parliamentary network shows published in 2009. real promise. I hope we can continue to work together, I come to the characteristically erudite and thoughtful to strengthen the voice of parliamentarians in countries contribution from the noble and learned Lord, Lord where freedom of religion or belief is regularly violated. Hope. He raised the interesting prospect of a freedom The noble Lord, Lord Clarke, made the important of religion convention. I understand that given the request that he wants words translated into deeds. No polarised nature of discussions at the United Nations, doubt that is a sentiment with which in any debate we we assess that a convention would be difficult to have a lot of sympathy, but I hope that what I am negotiate as it is not predictable that there would be telling the Committee today and what I am about to universal assent to it. The difficult balance that we outline will reassure him that there are many deeds need to strike is that we need to consider whether our taking place and we are not just talking about unfounded time is best spent negotiating such a convention or rhetoric. For example, my noble friend Lady Anelay whether it is better to spend our time working in will be attending the launch of the Open Doors Hope individual countries where the freedom of religion or for the Middle East report on 12 October. That report, belief is under attack and we feel we can do something which is a call to action, looks at the impact and about it. That is not to say in principle that this idea is significance of the Christian presence in Syria and not worthy of being kept on the radar screen, and it Iraq. My noble friend will continue to work closely was very important that the noble and learned Lord with Open Doors and with all our key partners as we referred to it. further develop our policies to support religious minorities We greatly value the work of all the partners with in the region. whom we work on this important issue. Ministers, We are appalled by the barbarism of Daesh towards diplomats and officials continue to meet regularly all of Iraq’scommunities.Daesh is conducting a campaign with leaders of different religious groups from around of violence and terror in both Syria and Iraq and has the world, UK faith groups and civil society organisations. carried out atrocities against many communities including We try to understand their concerns and endeavour to Muslims, Christians and Yazidis. examine how we can better work together to promote Reference has been made to the London conference, a universal commitment to religious freedom. which my noble friend Lady Anelay will be hosting on 19 and 20 October, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, before the referred to. It is an important event that will discuss Minister concludes, as we have a few minutes before how protecting freedom of religion or belief can help we have to finish our proceedings, may I just press her to combat violent extremism by building inclusive on the point that the noble Lord, Lord Collins of GC 175 Universal Declaration of Human Rights[LORDS] Banking Standards GC 176

[LORD ALTON OF LIVERPOOL] “Banks in the UK have failed in many respects. They have Highbury, and I raised about the declaration of events failed taxpayers, who had to bail out a number of banks including in Syria and Iraq as a form of genocide? She will some major institutions, with a cash outlay peaking at £133 billion, equivalent to more than £2,000 for every person in the UK. They record that I cited the current Foreign Secretary’s have failed manyretail customers,with widespread product mis-selling. remarks, before he was appointed, that he was baffled They have failed their own shareholders, by delivering poor by the failure of the Foreign Office to make such a long-term returns and destroying shareholder value. They have declaration. What is the Foreign Office doing not just failed in their basic function to finance economic growth, with to collect evidence but to take it forward and place a businesses unable to obtain the loans that they need at an acceptable resolution at either the General Assembly or the Security price”. Council so that proceedings may be brought against Some people, not least some bankers, claim that this is those who have committed these heinous crimes? now all in the past and that today everything is different. However, even a cursory glance at our newspapers Baroness Goldie: With the change of regime of the reveals the catalogue of problems that continue to dog Foreign Office, it may be timely to refer the question some parts of the industry. again. That is all I can offer to do, and I undertake to I will focus my comments on those recommendations the noble Lord that I will do it. We can only see what of the commission which sought to shape the corporate response is forthcoming. culture of our banking institutions. The banking crisis I thank all contributors today for this serious and of 2008 was, after all, not primarily a regulatory thought-provoking debate. It is an area where there is failure but a moral failure. It was a failure of a no monopoly on wisdom and all worthwhile suggestions corporate culture that came to reward irresponsible and contributions are very welcome and received with and reckless behaviour, eschewed accountability among great warmth. I reassure noble Lords of the continued senior managers and failed to value the interests of its commitment of the UK Government in support of customers, and which refused to acknowledge its duties Article 18. I hope I have done that by giving just a few and responsibilities to wider society. examples of how we are working with groupings such By the time the commission’sfinal report was published as academics, think tanks, NGOs, faith representatives in 2013, it was clear that the banking industry had and parliamentarians in further pursuit of this become detached from the moral moorings that had fundamental human right. The Government will continue helped to shape its activity over past centuries. Gone to work towards the full realisation of the right to were the principles of collective endeavour and mutual freedom of religion or belief for every individual and success, to be replaced by a misalignment of risk and we look forward to doing that in tandem with everyone, reward which had stripped many parts of the industry such as your Lordships, with an interest in securing of any substantive values besides the pursuit of short-term that vital objective and undertaking that vital task. capital return. 2.56 pm While a tightening of the rules could help bring broken banks into line, the parliamentary commission Sitting suspended. quite rightly noted that the task of reform would remain incomplete while banks and regulators continued to see those regulations as little more than boxes to be Parliamentary Commission on Banking ticked. What was and is still needed is a renewal and a Standards re-embedding of the values by which banking is governed. Question for Short Debate Only when banks themselves come to take seriously their long-term responsibilities towards customers, 3 pm employees and the common good will they find themselves in a position in which they can regain trust. Asked by The Lord Bishop of St Albans The commission therefore made a number of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their recommendations aimed at encouraging this renewal assessment of progress towards implementing the of culture and values. Increasing accountability at the recommendations contained within the report of top of banks through the new senior managers and the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards, certification regimes should help to concentrate the Changing banking for good. minds of senior management on the importance of embedding good corporate values throughout the bank. The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, I start The new set of conduct rules and the requirement that this debate by saying how pleased I am to see the banks train staff in their implementation will set a Minister responding today in his last time in his present basic standard of values against which all staff can be role, although I look forward to working with him held to account. Finally, the new rules on remuneration, when he takes up his new duties at DCMS. with a proportion of any bonuses deferred and new We are now three years on from the publication of facilities for clawback and malus, should strengthen the parliamentary commission’sreport Changing Banking the alignment of individual rewards with long-term for Good. Thanks to the decisions made by this and risk. previous Governments, our banking system is taking The Government’s willingness to implement these tentative but important steps along the road to recovery. recommendations is welcome, even if there has been We must not forget, however, the blunt summary in some hesitancy to implement them in full—for example, the report which laid out the scale of the problems the extent to which remuneration should be deferred. with banks over the previous decade: However, the effectiveness of these reforms has yet to GC 177 Banking Standards [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Banking Standards GC 178 be tested, and that will be an important part of the The parliamentary commission made a number of process. Can the Minister inform us what will be done recommendations on this, including consulting on to monitor the implementation of these new rules and changes to the Companies Act to remove shareholder regulations? Will Her Majesty’s Government report, primacy in the case of banks that posed a wider for example, on the number of senior managers being economic risk, replacing that with a primary duty to held to account by the regulator? Will they keep a financial safety and soundness. As far as I am aware, public record of the number of staff being disciplined this is not something that Her Majesty’s Government for failing to abide by the conduct rules or on the have acted upon. Can the Minister comment as to number of cases of banks exercising their right to claw whether this sort of approach might be considered by back remuneration? It is no good banks and regulators our new Prime Minister? Can he also inform the being given these new powers if they never actually use Committee what impact the UK’simpending withdrawal them. from the EU might have on current and future banking These regulatory changes are crucial steps in reforms? helping to reshape at senior levels the culture of British banks, but cultural change must go deeper than the 3.09 pm top layer. It needs to become embedded within middle management: those individuals who actually drive Lord Haskel (Lab): My Lords, on 19 July the head sales and investments. There is of course a serious of HSBC foreign exchange trading was arrested at question as to how far regulatory changes can successfully New York airport. He was charged with making $8 million embed cultural values into the heart of any organisation by abusing a client’s confidence on a foreign exchange —as large, for example, as Barclays or HSBC. Cultural deal. Of course, this is but one of a series of foreign change has to come, at least in part, from within the exchange abuses that we have heard about in recent industry itself. years. However, this one was a little bit different: it had been fully investigated by the bank, and its decision In this regard the creation of the Banking Standards was that there had been no wrongdoing. I put it to the Board, as recommended by the commission, is an Minister that this episode calls into question whether important step towards a sustainable and responsible the changes in culture and the stricter controls called banking system. The BSB is in a unique position to for in the banking commission’s report are in fact encourage and facilitate banks to move in a more working. Are we taking the steps to recovery that the sustainable direction. It can employ the soft power of right reverend Prelate is so concerned about? public opinion and help to share examples of best practice. It also holds the key to the professionalisation In spite of what has gone on, foreign exchange of an industry that has often lacked proper accreditation trading is still more lightly regulated than other sectors standards. of the financial market. This is because of undertakings to treat clients fairly. Are we still seeing exploitation I urge the board to act boldly in holding its members because of this light regulation? The right reverend to account, but Her Majesty’s Government also have Prelate is right to raise this report and I congratulate a vital role to play. Crucial to the BSB’s success is a him on his timely Motion. This incident would suggest competitive market, but I fear that the recent that it is time to take another good hard look at the recommendations from the Competition and Markets incentives given to traders, as he suggested, and whether Authority do not go far enough in driving transparency they are balanced not only by rules but also by the and competition, or in levelling the playing field for culture called for in Changing Banking for Good. challenger banks. The predatory attitude in banking affects us all Beside the BSB, responsibility for cultural change because it rubs off on the rest of business—the current in banking also requires senior management to ensure word is “interconnectivity”. As it is, the reputation of that it is rewarding, promoting and embodying those business seems to be at an all-time low, with the social values that are commensurate with the long-term health contract between business and society coming apart. not just of its organisation but of its customers and The Prime Minister has promised a more equal approach the wider economy—the common good. Since the to the economy and an industrial strategy but at the crash, a number of CEOs and senior managers have end of the day it will be our companies, their boards made cultural transformation a top priority of their and the banks that will have to deliver this. It is they tenure. However, it is worth noting that many of them who will have to ensure that there is no ambiguity have faced huge problems in maintaining and increasing about the social values and behaviour needed to deliver short-term shareholder returns. these commercial and financial objectives. Herein lies a core problem for banking that is noted Before coming to your Lordships’ House I spent by the commission but remains unaddressed. While it over 30 years in business. That was a long time ago, is clear that long-term thinking over investments, debts but even at that time we knew that our purpose and and customer care is integral to the sustainability of strategy had to be in line with both our social and any bank, there is an inevitable pressure to focus on commercial values. We did all we could to encourage short-term returns when the average share is held for what we considered to be the right behaviour; we just six months. Keeping shareholders happy remains called it stewardship. So this is not new, nor is it rocket the central priority of senior management. As long as science; most people in business know about it. Indeed, that continues, regulations protecting the wider economy it is laid out in guides for corporate governance by will continue to be seen as a hurdle to be cleared and organisations such as Tomorrow’s Company, and it is short-term gains will continue to be pursued at the in the senior managers regime and other codes of expense of long-term stability. practice. It is even in the Companies Act, and research GC 179 Banking Standards [LORDS] Banking Standards GC 180

[LORD HASKEL] I know that the most reverend Primate and I disagree has shown that it works in terms of both company on this issue but I felt that it went right to the heart of performance and public trust. Commentators have the PCBS’s work on identifying the importance of been pointing this out for years, and the commission’s culture and making sure that senior managers could report Changing Banking for Good makes many not escape a sense of responsibility for everything that recommendations along the same lines. Much of this happened within their organisations. We must see if is also reflected in the recommendations of the Financial the new senior persons regimes give the regulators Reporting Council, an organisation that the City itself enough powers that the big players take on that set up. We all know what is to be done, so let us get on responsibility, take it seriously and achieve the cultural with implementing it and help to stop the growing change that is so essential. spread of dissatisfaction with our banks and businesses, I realise I have lost the argument on reversal but I which will stand in the way of any industrial strategy. suggest the Government pursue a “one strike and What brought banking into disrepute is that many you’re out” policy: if we have one occasion when yet innovations clearly breached the golden rule, which again the regulators are hampered in exposing wrongdoing may be familiar to other speakers: do not offer your and senior management walks scot free, we restore the customers a financial deal that you would not accept reversal clause. One could say that the banks have for yourself. Businesses and investors themselves have proved themselves very effective at lobbying and, indeed, to make this assessment as part of their corporate the pace is gathering. In the world of financial services governance. I scarcely hear a speech that does not first stress the Earlier today, in reply to an Oral Question, the importance of not returning to the world of light-touch noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, said the Government regulation and then in the same breath calls for a will issue a paper later this year on governance. I hope review of regulation because it is evidently too burdensome this will be a part of the industrial strategy that we for the health of the industry. have been promised. Indeed, we now have a department I think we can safely say that many banks now to carry out this strategy, even though it will have to facing reduced revenues will be arguing for their capital involve every government department. I ask the Minister buffers to be lowered. Some also see Brexit as an to urge the Government to include in that strategy the opportunity to roll back the very regulation in which governance principles, which are supported by so many, the UK was a leading force. I do not deny that these of building strong companies through governance that are tough times for the banks, but the British public delivers strategic commercial and financial objectives are still suffering the consequences of the abuse of through values and behaviour welcomed by society. light regulation and the new rules were not intended We would thereby avoid the need for bankers to be just for the easy times. I hope the Government will stand arrested at New York airport. firm, not just on their own actions. The EU brought in the cap on bonuses for senior management, limiting them to only one times salary. The British Government 3.15 pm did not like that but it has been extremely effective and Baroness Kramer (LD): My Lords, I will miss the I hope we do not see that as a quid pro quo for some of noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, and it is a privilege the Brexit measures. We must not repeat the past to be at his last venture into this portfolio. I know he where, salami slice by salami slice, regulation to curb has an exciting set of portfolios in front of him. I bank misconduct was subtly and gradually weakened. congratulate the right reverend Prelate on obtaining There are just a few areas in which I particularly this debate. I was privileged to be a member of the want to raise questions with the Government. The Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards; first is the issue of the change in bank culture. Frankly, the most reverend Primate is also here, and the noble I am rather underwhelmed by the industry’s efforts to Lord, Lord McFall, is listening to this debate. Members bring about change. Will the Government tell us how of the PCBS often voiced the fear that their effective they think voluntary industry efforts are? To recommendations would make a big splash and appear what degree are we seeing new blood on bank boards? to be accepted but, as time passed and memories Has whistleblowing increased? What evidence do the faded, Governments, regulators and the banks would Government have of a shift in power towards audit return to business as usual. and compliance? How have recruitment and training Some of those fears have been realised. The FCA changed? last year abruptly scrapped its work to challenge the Ring-fencing was a compromise with the industry culture of individual banks, its CEO was undermined to find a way to prevent the cross-contamination of and morale collapsed. We shall see now if Andrew retail and investment banking without total separation. Bailey can demonstrate the FCA’s independence and Where are we in that process, especially in establishing its effectiveness. It is crucial that he does. Then the a framework for the electrification of ring-fencing? I Bank of England Act last spring absorbed the PRA—the have always been concerned about the viability of prudential regulator—back into the Bank of England, bail-in bonds—a key element, we have always been removing a small but significant opportunity for challenge. told, in reducing future risk to taxpayers.What assessment The same Act also diluted the capacity of the courts to have the Government made of the bail-in bond market oversee the Bank’s performance and, most significantly, and has it been undermined by indifference from scrapped the reversal of the burden of proof for civil many of the sovereign funds? misconduct—a presumption that senior managers are Perhaps most importantly, is the banking sector responsible for the banks they run—greatly to the now meeting the needs of the real economy? The relief of bank CEOs and senior managers. Government have always rejected my party’s arguments GC 181 Banking Standards [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Banking Standards GC 182 to use RBS to create a backbone of local and community being charged by their bank. The CMA’s announcement banks to serve SMEs and lower-income people, so that banks will have to place a monthly cap on overdraft they must now demonstrate that the conventional charges is welcome, although with customers currently banking system is stepping in. My conversations with paying £1.2 billion a year, it is debatable whether SMEs suggest that credit is still hard to obtain, and anything less than an industry-wide cap will make the that fits the findings of the Federation of Small Businesses. difference that we need to see. From the consumer’s Export finance for small companies seems virtually perspective, getting this right will be a significant part unobtainable from UK banks. Charities working with of restoring the trust in the UK banking sector. vulnerable people suggest that their banking options My second observation is that improving fairness have hardly improved, and the Competition and Market and trust requires more to be done to focus on one Authority’s timid resistance to capping overdraft fees group of customers in particular: those in vulnerable is, frankly, discouraging. circumstances. For several decades, vulnerable customers I know that we are making progress with challenger have been overlooked, with their treatment by financial banks and alternative forms of finance, such as peer- service providers varying hugely in the absence of to-peer, but those need time to mature. The PCBS concrete guidance and policy.Whether the vulnerability report is now two years old. Here is an opportunity to in question relates to mental health, bereavement, hear from the Government how its implementation terminal illness or any other factor, the way that these has progressed and for them to reassure us that backsliding customers are treated by their bank or credit card is not part of the agenda. company can make an enormous difference to their situation, either positively or negatively. 3.22 pm The Money Advice Trust has been closely involved Baroness Coussins (CB): My Lords, I, too, am in the work of the Financial Services Vulnerability grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Taskforce, established by the British Banking Association St Albans for tabling this debate. I declare my interest in early 2015 to address how financial institutions can as president of the Money Advice Trust, the charity improve the experience of such customers. The task which helps people across the UK to tackle their debts force brought together major banks, building societies, and manage their money with confidence. Among charities and consumer groups, building on the FCA’s other things, the trust runs the National Debtline, which previous work on consumer vulnerability in order to last year provided free advice to almost 400,000 people push this issue up the agenda of financial services over the phone or online. firms. The good news is that the industry is responding In this debate about a report which focuses on well in addressing the findings of the task force, and issues to do with governance, professional standards, vulnerability is now included more comprehensively in structure and regulation, I want to emphasise how the new standards of lending practice, which bring important it is that we do not lose sight of the interests the achievement of improved customer outcomes for of the consumer. An important aspect of the debate vulnerable consumers within the Lending Standards on banking standards is, of course, the question of Board’s monitoring regime. trust in financial services.That was undoubtedly damaged Of course, there is still much more to be done, in the wake of the financial crisis and, nearly 10 years including better collaboration between different sectors, on, there is still some way to go before this trust is to make vulnerable customers’ engagement with firms rebuilt. as straightforward as possible.Nevertheless,it is important Key to rebuilding this relationship is treating customers to recognise that real progress is being made in this fairly; in practice, that means on the ground, at the regard. I ask the Minister, following on from the task point of service. I offer two observations. The first is force’svaluable work, what specific lessons Her Majesty’s the need, as others have already said, to embed the fair Government think could be learned by public sector treatment of customers into the culture of financial bodies, especially those engaged in debt collection, in services and to make further improvements to competition respect of their treatment of people in vulnerable as a means to this end. Several steps have been taken circumstances. in recent years to improve the way in which customers In conclusion, I emphasise that improving the treatment are dealt with by financial service providers, including of customers—in practice on the ground, not just in the FCA’s requirement that all firms must be able to the fine words of policy documents—and paying show that consistently fair treatment is at the heart of particular attention to vulnerable customers will be their business model, as laid out in its “fair treatment key to resolving the lack of trust in banking that the of customers” outcomes. Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards was Similarly,the Parliamentary Commission on Banking set up to address. I hope the Government and regulators Standards’ recommendation on the need to improve will keep up the pressure on this crucial aspect of the competition in the retail and SME sectors paved the agenda. way for the CMA’s recommendations last month. These included making account switching easier and introducing 3.27 pm open banking data sharing, which could unlock huge The Archbishop of Canterbury: My Lords, I add my benefits for consumers by harnessing new technology congratulations to those of other noble Lords on the to help them manage their money. Both these measures appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Ashton, as the are welcome and will improve outcomes for consumers. Minister at DCMS. I have no doubt that we will come However, of even greater concern to many people, across each other again as “C”, “M” and “S” all seem and a far bigger barrier to trust in financial services, to cover the Church in various forms. I should also say are the high overdraft fees people find themselves that I served on the Parliamentary Commission on GC 183 Banking Standards [LORDS] Banking Standards GC 184

[THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY] ensure that banks remain in business and protect their Banking Standards and had the very good fortune to customers? That leads me to the question of resolution do so with the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, from and the importance of the adequacy of plans for whom I learned a great deal. I am also chairman of resolution which ensure that, especially for banking the Church Commissioners, who were involved in activities outside the future ring-fence, contagion is seeking to buy some of the spin-off assets of the Royal avoided and certainty is provided. What progress is Bank of Scotland. being made and how satisfied are the Government I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for with plans for resolution? arranging this debate. I agree entirely with his speech Finally, the issue of competition has been raised by and indeed with the other four speakers that have been other noble Lords. The spin-off from RBS has of made before mine. I shall try to avoid repeating what course been greatly delayed, in part owing to difficulties they said. As we know, and as previous speakers have around the setting up of independent information said, the key issue is banking culture. Culture comes technology and governance systems. Be that as it may, from actions and decisions, and actions and decisions it is clear that there remains a lack of new entrants feed into culture. There is no doubt that changes into the banking market; that figures for transfer of introduced by the Government and the Bank of England current accounts remain very low; that the illusion of have been extensive, and in many cases very effective. free banking in credit is being maintained and is as However, there are four linked areas, all of them market-distorting as ever; and that thus one can talk around “too big to fail”, leading to what must be the fairly and with reason about a banking market that long-term aim of ensuring that the Government do simply does not function as a market. not have a contingent liability with respect to large The banks have been very clear about their resistance banks that would result in them needing to provide to increases in the ease of transfer of current accounts. support in the event of serious problems, as they had Although we now have the seven-day guarantee, more to do in 2008 at such cost. sophisticated and advanced methods that have been First is the internal measure of capital. After some available for some years, such as portable account reluctance from the Government to concede this, banks numbers, do not appear to have come over the horizon now have a leverage ratio which is set by the FPC. in practical terms for implementation. They would be However, in contrast to the recommendation of the of huge benefit, particularly to the retail consumer. Commission on Banking Standards, it is set at 3% Until there is significant competition both for assets rather than 4%. Obviously there is a balance to be met and liabilities as well as the essentially utility aspects between a low ratio that leads to insecurity and a high of banking in terms of money transfers and movement, ratio that leads to perverse incentives to take on high-risk there will not be competition which keeps things simple, assets. It would be interesting to know why there has fair and honest, and embeds values. been resistance to the figure of 4%, which has been the We need a definitive change of culture to one that unanimous recommendation of all the external experts says that banks should be treated in ways that encourage who have reviewed this case. competition and reduce government guarantees, and Leverage is one way of measuring capital adequacy, that banks should not be content with being privileged and a crude one. One of the great problems in 2008 but should have a service mentality growing ever stronger, was that most of the measures of capital adequacy and should show self-restraint. For me, one of the relied on banks’ internal modelling. Recent reports—for most memorable quotes from our evidence was from a instance, concerning the Royal Bank of Scotland and banker in a state of great distress, who said, “If I had internal transfers of as much as £70 billion across my time again, I would remember that you can have what would after 2019 be the ring-fence—demonstrate big, simple banks or small, complicated banks but you that capital adequacy and movement of assets remain cannot have big, complicated banks”. When the banks very important aspects of the security and good begin to have that sense of restraint, perhaps we may governance of large and complex banking institutions. begin to see a more secure future for our banking It therefore remains a matter of concern that significant industry. weight continues to be put on banks’ internal models for measuring capital which the Commission on Banking 3.35 pm Standards’report showed very clearly were not consistent Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab): My Lords, I thank with each other and in addition have a level of subjectivity the right reverend Prelate for introducing the debate. It which makes them almost entirely unreliable. is an important issue and he focused on the most So long as there is good capital adequacy, the important question we have to ask the Minister. We implied subsidy coming from the government guarantee want a report not just on progress thus far, because we of banking liabilities and assets, which has been measured can do some of that work ourselves, but on how the by the banks themselves as around £30 billion a year, Government will monitor their aspirations to success and by external bodies to be as much as £70 billion a in what we all recognise is an extremely challenging year—just think how that might have helped Tata environment, how they will measure their success and Steel—remains a severely market-distorting factor. Does how we will get reports on it. the Minister agree that it must be a principal target of The call, of course, is for a moral dimension to bank regulation and governance that the Government banking. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said that may formally withdraw any guarantee beyond the she was underwhelmed by the response thus far. I am a fairly low statutory level set for retail deposits, renewing little more disappointed than that. I am pessimistic in doing so a culture of risk and reward—not merely about it. It seems to me that the City has to a very reward—and genuine values of resilience in order to large extent returned to its prime driver, which is the GC 185 Banking Standards [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Banking Standards GC 186 culture of greed. If we are going to get some moderation possibly be right that significant amounts of money of that position and recognition of responsibility to are going to senior staff. One part of the morality of the wider society, the Minister needs to respond to the City is to recognise that its basic unfairness and several of the salient points made in this debate. disregard for the society that it serves are no advantage We all recognise that the financial industry is a very to it, except in terms of the pockets of those who get important part of our economy. It is a major earner of the financial bonuses. overseas earnings and important to our balance of What my noble friend Lord Haskel referred to and payments. We all therefore want it to be healthy, but what also underpins this is that the Government must that also means hitting higher standards than those think about empowering those, in addition to the which led to the appalling collapse in 2007-08. Since regulators, who can hold the banks to account. That then, we have not had a great deal of evidence of a means changes in shareholder powers. It means a commitment by the City to improve its level of morality. companies Act that gives real responsibility to shareholders Its friends in Westminster, of course, blamed the Labour rather than to those on the remunerative merry-go-round Government of the time—an extremely successful ploy that they appear to operate at present. in electoral terms but not much referred to now when we talk about the financial industry, because we all 3.43 pm recognise the depths of the issues which bought it low and caused so much pain to our wider society. After TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department all, few in the banking industry have been brought for Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) significantly to account. Many have returned to business (Con): My Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend as usual. Those who were brought to account were on Prelate for securing this debate here today and to all the whole smaller fry than those who had responsibility noble Lords who have spoken, including distinguished and took the great rewards. members of the commission itself. I am also grateful We want the Minister to give a clear response. The for the kind words of those who were wishing me Government have been somewhat selective in the advice godspeed on my way. There is always doubt as to which they have taken and implemented. Both the whether they are longing to get rid of me or want to most reverend Primate and the noble Baroness, Lady come to see me in another form. Kramer, referred to the key proposals first presented The theme around today’s debate is that we all to the Government in the Vickers report. Sir John acknowledge the problems. We realise that they were Vickers indicated that he was severely disappointed at incredibly serious and that they had an effect on real the action taken in consequence of the report. The people’s lives all over the country. Therefore, the issue Government have some explaining to do in circumstances demands a huge amount of attention, not only when where a very clear model of reform was presented but the commission took place but also as it continues, so we have had limited action. it is good that we are having a debate such as this Of course, I give credit to the Government for today. There is a theme that some progress is being introducing the Bank of England Bill, the fact that the made—or is it illusory?—and that competition is necessary Bank of England has been put firmly at the centre of but consumers should be served well and fairly. I hope banking regulation and that there is an improvement to be able to convince noble Lords that real progress is in the bodies now authorised to carry out this exercise. being made and to answer a lot of questions. We all recognise the virtue of a concept such as It is also helpful that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, ring-fencing, which was recommended in Vickers, but took the time to mention that this is a very important it does not come into effect until 2019. I therefore industry for the country. It employs 1 million people, cannot feel that driving, effective pressure from the two-thirds of whom are not in London and the south-east. Government is under way when they are prepared to They raise £60 billion of tax revenue to pay for things subscribe to a timetable to which substantial delay is that we all want, such as hospitals. It is very important built in. in the context of Brexit, which I will come on to later. I share with the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer—who It represents 12% of UK exports. also referred to this—that the only issue that seems to I think we all agree that the report is an exceptional have given a real shudder of anxiety in the City about piece of work. It identified fundamental problems its processes and conduct at present and the possibility within the banking system and clear solutions to them. of government regulating it with some force, was that In the wake of the financial crisis and a succession of the burden of proof. Of course, the Government of scandals, though, public trust in our banks has reversed this so that the regulator has to establish the undoubtedly been dented, so it will take not only case, not the person who is being examined on the legislative and regulatory reform but a long-term shift basis of damage that might have been done. To many in culture if the industry is to fully restore that trust. of us that looked like a signal to the City that this Culture is a theme that came up throughout the debate. Government could be and indeed were soft in that I shall summarise some of the progress that the instance. Government and the regulators have made in response We should also appreciate the extent to which the to the commission’s main recommendations. The noble rewards system in the City seems to have changed very Lord, Lord Davies, asked me to comment on individual little. The banks can make colossal losses and still pay responsibility. A key focus of the commission was the out very heavy bonuses, which are matched by scarcely so-called accountability firewall that allowed senior any others in society.Surely there must be a recognition, individuals and banks to evade responsibility for serious in circumstances where bankers see that they have to failings in their firms. Criminal sanctions were introduced pay out for the mistakes of the past, that it cannot for senior managers who recklessly cause their banks GC 187 Banking Standards [LORDS] Banking Standards GC 188

[LORD ASHTON OF HYDE] Standards Board, established in response to the to fail, and who can now face up to seven years in jail. recommendation, now has 32 members ranging from We have significantly strengthened the regulator’s ability the largest banks and building societies to some of the to hold senior managers to account through the new smallest, and has begun valuable work to support a senior management certification regime, as we were strong banking culture. For example, it has run a reminded by the right reverend Prelate. This ensures comprehensive culture assessment of banks and building that all the senior managers and key decision-makers societies in the UK to show them their scores benchmarked in the firm have statements of responsibilities setting against their peers along with an analysis of key issues out clearly what they are accountable for, enabling the facing their firm. In response to a recommendation by regulator to hold these individuals personally to account the Fair and Effective Markets Review, the FICC if things go wrong. This is because there is now a Markets Standards Board was established to improve statutory duty on senior managers to take reasonable conduct in wholesale fixed income, currencies and steps to prevent regulatory failings on their watch. commodities markets, which the noble Lord, Lord There are strong incentives to take such steps because Haskel, mentioned. It has already taken important the penalties for breaching the duty can run to an action, publishing some draft industry standards. unlimited fine, and firms must review the fitness and Therefore I, with the right reverend Prelate and other propriety of key staff on an ongoing basis. In short, noble Lords, look forward to seeing how the work of we have taken the steps to create a culture of these bodies progresses. accountability, sending a powerful message to both In the limited time available I will address specific senior and junior staff that good conduct is their own comments and questions from noble Lords. We agree personal responsibility. that competition is important and that it is important The regime is still young—it came into effect for to have more of it in banking. However, the CMA deposit-takers and large investment firms in March—but report shows that there is more to do. We welcome the we are already seeing evidence that firms are taking it report and will be responding within the 90-day deadline; very seriously. I will come on to the monitoring in a I think it reported in August. We agree that it is not the minute. From 2018 the regime will start to be applied end of the debate and will continue to keep a firm eye to all other authorised financial services firms and on the actions that may be required to create a more firms where misconduct that can undermine the integrity competitive market. of the market and let customers down can be caused The most reverend Primate talked about the lack of by failings similar to those identified by the commission new entrants in banking. There has been progress on in banks. that. We saw one new retail banking authorisation up So much for the stick. The commission’s report also to 2010 and we have seen 11 new retail banking highlighted the importance of getting the carrot right. authorisations since then; shortly we will see some of The actions of individual bankers are also influenced those names filtering through. However, of course, as by the system incentives that are in place, and again the CMA report showed, there is more to do. the linkage between risks and incentives was a theme in the debate. As the right reverend Prelate said, one of The right reverend Prelate asked to what extent the the roots of the financial crisis was the system of remuneration should be deferred, saying that it was incentives and rewards that existed within financial inadequate. We have gone some way, deferring it to institutions that meant that the long-term risks were five years, which was an extension from three. For poorly aligned with the short-term rewards.In responding senior managers the deferral period was seven years in to the commission’s recommendations for reforming response to the recommendation of 10, so we are not remuneration practice, we have created the toughest that far apart. regime for any major financial services centre. All The right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, firms must be able to claw back bonuses if it subsequently Lord Davies, asked how we are monitoring this, which emerges that an individual has not met robust ethical is an important question. The regulators will keep a and professional standards expected of them. For public register that will show suspensions and restrictions those who are high earners, or who take significant of public enforcement action for individual senior risks for the firm, at least 40% of any reward must be managers and the FCA will publish an annual enforcement deferred over five years at least, and at least half must performance account. Since the SMCR has become be paid in shares. The Bank of England has also laid effective for banks, the regulator has been monitoring out proposals that will enable bankers’ bonuses to be its impact with a view to conducting a review of its revoked after they have moved employer in the event effectiveness. of misconduct. Based on his last two questions, the right reverend As a result of these reforms we have seen a big Prelate obviously has a sense of humour: he asked me increase in deferral periods and payment in instruments, to opine whether the new Prime Minister would effectively with the industry clearly moving away from the kind tear up the basis on which joint stock companies have of remuneration system that promotes a culture of been working for several hundred years and to comment short-term gains over long-term profitability and stability. on Brexit. Having been in post for about four weeks, I However, the legislation regulation can only go so far. feel comfortable answering those questions. At the Wethink it is important that businesses take responsibility moment we will not change the principal duty but of for reform in their own culture. course we will keep in mind that the regulators have a The commission recommended the creation of a duty to maintain adequate financial resources and to professional body to promote high professional standards, take reasonable care to organise and control the affairs and we are seeing progress being made. The Banking responsiblyandeffectivelywithadequaterisk-management GC 189 Banking Standards [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Schools: Admissions GC 190 systems. On Brexit, we are determined that the industry has been made but also that industry is stepping up to and government work together to ensure that Britain the challenge. Weknow that momentum, once generated, takes full advantage of the opportunities. We want the must not be lost. That is why it is crucial that this vital best deal for financial services in Europe and outside industry learns from the mistakes of the past and and are aware of the implications of things such as moves on from them to earn the trust of the public passporting and equivalence; clearly, that will be part once again. of the negotiations going forward. Work goes on to deliver those goals as we speak. Noble Lords will not 3.58 pm be surprised to learn that after the Statement yesterday by the Prime Minister and the Leader, I will not go any Sitting suspended. further than that today. The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, says that culture is Schools: Admissions not embedded. Of course the SMCR came into effect for banks only in March this year. Personally, I think a Question for Short Debate huge amount depends on the message from the top in organisations, but we are setting up the mechanisms 4 pm and firms are taking them seriously. Asked by Lord Lucas Change will take time. The work of the Banking Standards Board and the FICC Market Standards To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Board will be key to raising standards. The Bank of they have to support parents in navigating schools’ International Settlements is making significant progress admissions arrangements. on a global code for foreign exchange, which is due to be published in May 2017. The noble Baroness, Lady Lord Lucas (Con): My Lords, parents choose schools, Kramer, acknowledged that industry is responding or at least we make great efforts to give them that well to the taskforce’s work on vulnerable people and opportunity. Certainly I believe it is extremely good things like that. I will come on to that in a minute. for parents to have that choice. They should have the The noble Baroness was honest enough to admit chance to find the school that suits their preferences that she had lost the argument in this House about the and those of their children and not simply be stuffed reverse burden of proof. This was removed after long into whatever school happens to be closest to them. In discussions involving some members of the banking my life outside this place as the editor of The Good commission, and I am not going to go over those Schools Guide I spend a great deal of time trying to again. I believe, as does the majority of Parliament, make that happen. I feel and I think the Government that the duty of responsibility is a better approach for agree that parents having a choice is good for the embedding senior accountability across the financial system as a whole. It is a slow mechanism. Parents services industry. change their views about schools and schooling quite slowly, but over time it works to improve the system The noble Baroness also talked about the bonus and it certainly works to improve the relationship gap. We did not support the bonus gap but for now it is between schools and parents. When parents have a in place and we have withdrawn the challenge to the choice of school, that makes for a much better day-to-day EU. We want to build a system of pay in the global relationship between parents and schools than was the banking system that encourages rather than undermines case before when schools tended to shut parents out responsibility. because they did not need their permission to exist. The noble Baroness also talked about public sector In order to make a choice you need high-quality organisations in helping vulnerable consumers. I agree information that is easily available. It also needs to be that that is an important point—I will continue for a accessible in the sense that it must be delivered in a couple of minutes because I think we have until the form that enables parents to make sense of it without hour. The CMA identified key groups of consumers devoting their lives to doing so. Successive Governments who are not well served by the banking sector. No have made great strides in this direction. Performance doubt the FCA will want to consider this alongside its tables are now hundreds of columns wide and contain high-cost short-term credit costs, and separately it is a great deal of data. Government websites are becoming undertaking an extremely important piece of work on ever more informative. The latest edition is just out the needs of vulnerable customers. and is a great improvement on the previous one, and The most reverend Primate talked about the no doubt we will see more of that. Apart from the leverage ratio set at 3% rather than 4%. One of the occasional imposed idiocies—I am thinking of my great recommendations was to take this decision away from friend Nick Gibb and the noble Lord, Lord Knight the Government, so we have left it to the FPC. That —of excluding GCSE and similar exams from the includes powers to set an additional leverage buffer to data, it is pretty high quality and useful stuff. be applied to the systemically important firms that The attitude of the department over the years has will supplement the minimum requirements if they always been open and constructive. However, the one so feel. It is an important point that this be left to area where this is not true is information on admissions. the FPC. Yes, it is available after a fashion. Local authorities There are some more questions that I have not publish brochures in physical or PDF form. They are spoken fast enough to get to, so I will write to noble all in different formats and do not by any means Lords to answer the questions that I have not answered contain all the information they are statutorily supposed today. To summarise, we believe that huge progress to show. Moreover, they are generally not set out in a GC 191 Schools: Admissions [LORDS] Schools: Admissions GC 192

[LORD LUCAS] Something that some schools are trying, and which way that encourages comparisons between schools I really encourage the Government to consider instead and understanding what you as a person located in a of grammar schools, is opening some of their admissions particular place on the map with a particular set of to ballot rather than things that are gameable. Schools circumstances have access to. As the fragmentation of that do so find that they still get only the advantaged the system has continued, the quality and availability applying because the disadvantaged do not know how of this information have declined. I know of only one it works or even that they have the option. organisation that makes a serious attempt to collect To have serious information systems out there that this data, which is 192.com, and indeed a lot of made it easier to find out your chances of getting in to schools are simply delinquent about providing the which schools would be really helpful in giving the data. The information is patchy even though it is the disadvantaged access to excellent schools.Local authorities best that is available. I have spoken to would also find that helpful. They are Availability also means accessibility, something that getting less and less complete information as to what is can be used to make decisions. Because the data is happening in admissions in their area because crucial available only in PDF form, with no standard format data are withheld by academies. They are just a black within the PDF, it cannot be integrated in any way box. You send them a list of people who have expressed that helps parents to make decisions. That creates a a preference and back comes a list of people that the complex system where, in somewhere like London, academy will accept. There is no indication of what you have to look at several sets of data because people process the academy has gone through; no data are live close to local authority boundaries. You have an flowing back. immense variety of catchment systems. Distance is If we are to pick up on the White Paper—I would measured six different ways, I think, in English catchment be very happy if we did—and make local authorities systems. There are feeder schools, selection or partial the champions of parents, we have to provide excellent selection and multiple streams of entry. data. To have the data open and available would do The result is that the advantaged in society become nothing but good for the honesty of schools in the yet more advantaged. They know enough, they know application of their admissions criteria, because every the people to talk to, they have the understanding to disappointed parent could see why they failed and find out what opportunities are there, the schools that whether that was fair. have ballots that they may take advantage of or understand how to navigate a banding system to their advantage—which band you want to get your child in 4.10 pm to have the best chance of getting into Camden School Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab): My Lords, I for Girls, or whatever. The disadvantaged become yet congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, on securing more disadvantaged. Even the advantaged, who are this important debate and on his contribution. I agreed the people I spend most of my life talking to, are full with pretty much everything he had to say, which of anxiety at this uncertain, unclear,difficult-to-navigate often happens, but not always. In particular, when I process. talk about the relationship between parental choice The Government could do something about it very and those with disadvantages, I will echo some of his simply and at very low cost. The data are all there. points. Every admissions authority knows its admissions criteria. I start, however, with the new Prime Minister’s They all follow a coherent structure and the information commitment to social mobility, made in her first speech on how an admissions round has gone is not exactly outside No. 10. She said that Britain should be, complicated. If each admissions authority had to “a country that works not for a privileged few, but for every one contribute those data to a common table and the table of us”. was then made open data by the Government, that I thought that not only would that have been a nice would be all they had to do. The great gods in my thing to hear a Labour Prime Minister say going into world are the property websites. They command so No. 10—they could easily have done so; it sounded a much traffic that we all have to pay attention to what bit like the “for the many not the few” rhetoric used so they want. They want as good a set of catchment much by Tony Blair—but that it was a positive sign of information as they can get. If the Government were her commitment to education. to make these data open, I and a multiplicity of other Parental choice, which is what this debate is about, people would suddenly find ourselves having to spend is designed to improve the quality of education for large amounts to catch up with the market, and that everyone. The notion is obvious: if you give parents would be no bad thing. the power of the market in accountability terms, you The cost to the Government would be the creation can improve schools because they can use their choice of a table and no more. The responsibility for the to go somewhere else—with per-pupil funding, the accuracy of the data would remain with those who put consequence will be that schools sort themselves out. the data into the table. The benefits, apart from a We know, however, that this does not necessarily work. general reduction in anxiety, would be a better quality I represented a rural area in Dorset when I was in the of choices, particularly for the disadvantaged, because other place, and in the chunk of my constituency in it becomes easier to give them something that they can the Purbecks you basically had no choice. You had to use to understand their options and encourage them try to get your child into the local secondary school to look at schools that are opening their doors because the distance you would have to travel otherwise to them. was, for most parents, prohibitive. GC 193 Schools: Admissions [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Schools: Admissions GC 194

There is, moreover, an assumption that parents will It is really hard for parents to select schools. It choose on the basis of standards. That is also not makes me want to ask—this is just about relevant to always the case. When I was doing the Minister’s job, I the debate—why we might want to make it easier for recall being particularly frustrated that there was a schools to select parents. It is really important that we Catholic school in the east of England that was doing have a tough admissions code. It is really important appallingly in examinations but had full rolls. It was that we create as level a playing field as possible for oversubscribed largely because of an influx of Catholics parents so that schools are not going out to choose from Eastern Europe who wanted to send their kids to them to make their job easier in the high-stakes the nearest Catholic school. They were exercising their accountability that we have in this country. choice but not necessarily in the way the policy intended. It is equally important that we do not extend selection. So we have to have some caution about parental My parents benefited from a grammar school education, choice. as a result of which my father became an accountant. The best recent discussion of evidence that the He joined the professions without going to university. disadvantaged find it harder in an environment of My mum was able to join the banking profession. As a parental choice is in the department’s own analysis, result they were able to afford to buy me and my published in January 2014 and authored by Rebecca brother the privilege of an independent school education Allen from the Institute of Education and Simon and we were then the first in our family to go to Burgess and Leigh McKenna from the University of university. At one level, you could say that is a great Bristol. They conclude: story of social mobility, but they were the lucky 25% at a time when in the economy there was perhaps a “The evidence suggests that what parents look for in a school may vary by social class: middle classes tend to value performance logic to letting 75% go and work in factories or marry and peer group; lower SES groups may look for accessibility, those who worked in factories. That logic no longer friendliness of staff and support for those of lower ability. This persists because we now have a very different economy may lead lower SES groups to select themselves out of high from the one in which the grammar school system was performingschoolstoavoidpossiblerejectionorfailure.Disadvantaged designed. We need to move away from education being families (by definition) have access to less in the way of resources, used to sift people and being more about an education which may limit the range of schools which they can consider due than a schooling system. I know the Minister is committed to transport costs. More affluent families tend to have access to higher quality information on schools and be more adept at using to empowering every single child and helping them it. The publication of performance tables and Ofsted reports aims achieve the best of their talents. Writing off too many to level the playing field in this regard, but cannot generate through a selective system does not do that. informal knowledge of local schools”. I also point to the work of Professor John Hattie That sums up all of the reasons why support for from the University of Melbourne, who says the data parents in navigating schools’ admissions arrangements from all the studies around the world show the two is really important. We have to try and replace that things that work are great teaching and what Carol lack of informal knowledge that more advantaged Dweck would call a growth mindset. How do you and better networked people have. How many local develop a growth mindset in a bunch of kids who feel authorities now offer a choice advice service? As I that they failed at the age of 11 and no longer have any recall, this was introduced in the Education and life chances? No wonder Alan Milburn, the social Inspections Act 2006, a piece of legislation that I inherited mobility tsar, calls it “a social mobility disaster” and from my predecessor Jacqui Smith when I was a the chief inspector a load of “tosh and nonsense”. schools Minister. It all passed by in a bit of a haze, but I cannot help but be diverted to say in the context I think that piece of legislation brought it in. It is a of this debate that we must not go back to grammar very useful service. I had a quick look today at the schools. I do not know what sort of information you council websites for the London Borough of Barnet, would give parents in the context of a selective system, Nottingham and Redcar and Cleveland. Those authorities especially once their child had failed. If the Minister clearly have active sites with active advice and are wants to answer that, I would be most grateful. employing people to try to help families in their areas. I would be interested in how much of that sort of service still continues, given local authority cuts and 4.20 pm how effective it is. Baroness Wolf of Dulwich (CB): My Lords, I It is also important to think about how we might congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, on securing develop more peer-to-peer networks so that families this debate. I declare my interest as a governor of from communities that are successfully navigating the King’s College London Mathematics School, which is complicated picture of different schools’ admissions a state-funded school for 16 to 19 year-olds, sponsored policies can to some extent be like the expert patients by my university and employer, King’s College London. that we have sometimes had in the health service. They I have therefore had first-hand experience of struggling are to some extent the expert parents. Can more be with the construction of admissions codes that can be done on what the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said about clearly understood by potential parents and students. the use of data? We can then enable private and Like the noble Lord, Lord Knight, I found myself third-sector smartphone app developers to develop agreeing with just about everything the noble Lord, solutions to make it really easy for parents to show Lord Lucas, said. However, I would like to say a little their preferences on transport, as well as standards about the nature of the information that is provided to and faith and all the different things that weigh on parents. The complexity of that information seems to parents’ minds when they have the anxious experience be a problem in and of itself. There is a very real of deciding which school to choose. danger—I will duck the grammar school question, GC 195 Schools: Admissions [LORDS] Schools: Admissions GC 196

[BARONESS WOLF OF DULWICH] and the certainty that if you have a system that does which would just make it even more complex—that in not allow you to take account of the unexpected, the responding to perceived problems we will actually end problematic and individual circumstances, you will up increasing the complexity of the codes and the fact always have situations in which a decision is seen by that parents are faced with more and more information those affected as unfair and unjustifiable. That is just that they cannot really cope with. the way life is, but it has tremendous implications for Because it is not my own experience, I have been how we might respond at this point. struck by the perception of many people that schools Schooling is becoming more and more important; are already trying to manipulate their criteria in such a more and more parents take seriously where they want way that they are in fact selecting parents. For example, their children to go, therefore the issue of oversubscribed John Dunford, who was once general secretary of the schools will get more rather than less acute. There are Association of School and College Leaders, believes good reasons for feeling that it will be easier for the that some schools are making it as opaque as possible educated and the privileged to deal with this. As I said, for parents in order to maximise the chance that those I argue that the answer is not more and more rules. In schools will receive fewer applications from children preparing for this debate, it was interesting to look at from poorer homes. As I have said, that is not my what the previous schools adjudicator said about the personal experience in any of the schools that I have current situation. You get the impression that the had to deal with, but from this very complexity comes whole thing is a catastrophe: at least half the schools the perception that these rules are very hard to understand in the country are breaking the code. and that, when it comes to appeals, it is much easier However, when you look at the details, you find two for middle-class and educated parents to know how to things. I have tremendous sympathy with one of the appeal and to do so successfully. problems—and anybody here who is a school governor I hope I will be able to persuade the Minister that and lives with this calendar of policies and things that the answer to this is not more and more complex have to go up on the website will sympathise. A large codes. That would be a tempting and easy route to go number of problems are caused by schools that do not down but my own experience, which has been borne do what they are directed to do because they did not out by many other people who have tried to create understand that they needed to do it. I do not mean all-singing, all-dancing, totally transparent codes, is putting up your admissions criteria—clearly, that is that that is not something that works. important. As an example, a school might have decided Both noble Lords who have already spoken have that it will just go on doing what the local authority alluded to the fact that we are in a system of school did; the local authority decides to change it, the school choice. Obviously, you get rid of admissions problems does not have a meeting of governors at which it if you simply allow the state to decide where every deliberates and decides, and therefore it has broken young person should go. Personally I am not in favour the code. That sounds so silly that one does not need of that, but if you have a system in which you have to take it seriously, but it is important to understand oversubscribed schools, as is very likely, you essentially that many violations of the code are of this sort. have two options: either you use a lottery or you have However, there is also the very real complexity rules for deciding who gets a place in an oversubscribed issue, which I will concentrate on for the last couple institution. In fact, we have some experience of what of minutes. The adjudicator points out that in many cases happens with lotteries because Brighton and Hove you have complex arrangements and over-subscription tried it out. The experience was an educational one, in criteria that are difficult to understand. It is also the the sense that it was a field day for the researchers, but case that just about every sixth form out there is in it was also rather depressing because the reality was contravention of the code. That is because once you that it did not improve access. That was not the result, get to that point, there are complex decisions to be partly because they did not go for a complete city-wide made. It is not like admitting somebody to a completely lottery, which might have resulted in practically every standardised primary school curriculum: you have to child in Brighton and Hove having a long journey to make decisions, not just about the number of students school. in your school but whether or not you will have viable The experiment also made it clear that many people numbers. Do you end up with a set of students and do not find lotteries fair. There is a perfectly good case end up abolishing certain key A-levels because you for lotteries not being seen as fair because, first, they were not allowed to take any account of whether or do not take account of the strength of preferences not the students you accepted would create a viable and, secondly, they do not make it possible to take group, which might be the only group in that city account of individual circumstances. That is the crux which was offering that A-level? In the current situation, of my point. The reality is that when you are faced unless you are a special school, like a mathematics with a problematic set of decisions, which school school, you do not have any ability to balance out admissions are, either you can try to have automatic these very real dilemmas. I argue that when you have a algorithmic rules or you are thrust back on decision- code that everybody breaks, which is the case for the making, discretion and judgment. It is very tempting sixth forms, maybe the problem is the code, not the to feel that bureaucratic rules that you cannot get sixth forms. When everybody breaks something, maybe around, where there is no room for discretion, must be there is a real problem. better and fairer. However, the experience of human There have been a number of occasions in the beings is that all too often this is not the case. Youhave past—for example, national vocational qualifications— to choose between the possibility that sometimes people when Governments have believed that you could create will not exercise their judgment correctly and fairly a set of rules so clear that anybody, trained expert or GC 197 Schools: Admissions [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Schools: Admissions GC 198 not, could come along and say, “Okay, this one has criteria. They argue that such schools increase social passed—that one has not; this one goes in this box—that division and tend to benefit the middle classes. I one goes in that box”. The reality of experience in probably do not need to tell the House that those every case is that we cannot foresee all the circumstances criticisms exist within the Church of England as well that occur—we cannot foresee the future—therefore as without. The reality is that there is no silver bullet in any complex situation we have to allow some room, when it comes to achieving a fair admissions policy. or some slack, for human discretion and judgment. Research shows that parents who are the most affluent In conclusion, I hope that the Minister will do a and best connected stand the best chance of getting great deal to support parents. However, I urge him in through the admissions policy, whatever is put in doing so to look at procedures, access to help and, place. Research also shows that those parents are above all, simplifying rather than further elaborating much more likely simply to have bought a house in the current code and requirements. their desired catchment than to attend church, for example, in order to get their child into their desired 4.29 pm school. Where faith-based admissions exist, at least they allow students to attend from beyond the immediate The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, I am also and potentially sometimes more affluent catchment area. grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for bringing this Question to the House for debate. The right On the issue at hand, helping people to navigate reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ely normally takes the school admissions arrangements, I am grateful for lead on these matters but he is unable to be here today, many of the suggestions that have been made, with so I want to make just a few comments. The subject of interesting points not least from the noble Lord, Lord admissions is a complex one. As a child’s education is Lucas. It is clear that some schools, including Church so vital and important, not surprisingly it often leads of England schools, have in the past failed in their to impassioned responses. That can be true of the duty to provide clear admissions information to parents. subject of admission to church schools, on which I The report from the British Humanist Society and the know that several Members of this House have expressed Fair Admissions Campaign called An Unholy Mess opinions in the past. Before I turn directly to the topic identified technical and minor errors in how a number of faith-based admissions, which your Lordships will of Church of England schools administered their not be surprised I wish to address, I would like briefly admissions policy.Examples of errors included forgetting to set out some points by way of context. to name the feeder school or failing to have an effective It is important to recognise the role that Church of tie-breaker between two applicants living equidistant England schools play in the lives of their families and from the school. It is worth pointing out that none of the wider community. Around 1 million children across the errors identified by the BHA in Church of England the UK are educated in Church of England schools schools were specific to the issue of faith-based admissions. that reflect the diversity of their local areas. In many It is clear that similar areas would be found in any rural areas Church of England schools form an integral school which acts as its own admissions authority, part of a local rural community. Indeed, I saw that whether religious or not. However, it is clear from the yesterday when making a visit to one of our schools in research that many schools find the process of admissions the diocese in Bedfordshire. It is also important to difficult to administer and this will inevitably make it recognise that many parents want and positively choose harder for parents. I believe that the answer is not to for their children the vision and ethos that underpin attack schools for their failures but to ask how they our schools.The Church of England’svision for education can be better supported. A rapidly changing landscape is that every child should have fullness of life and of education with its greater focus on autonomy and enjoy academic success as well as moral, spiritual and independence for schools in the academisation process personal development. Sometimes, that is missed. We will only increase the challenges for schools in providing hear complaints from people who object to Church of clear admissions criteria and advice. England schools, not praise from those who value them. With an increasing number of schools becoming By way of context, I hope that the House understands their own admissions authority for the first time, it is that the majority of Church of England schools actually more likely that errors could be made. With this in have no faith-based admissions criteria. Church of mind, the School Admissions Code, which is available England schools exist to serve the whole community, to parents, would benefit from revision and clarification not a select faith group. The make-up of the student to ensure that both schools and parents are confident body tends to be representative of the wider community. in navigating admissions arrangements.It is also important Church of England schools have as many pupils on that the Office of the Schools Adjudicator is strengthened free school meals as the national average, for example, and well equipped to prioritise admission complaints while schools operating in areas with a high population that have a basis in legality rather than having to waste of a religious minority tend to reflect that. A substantial its time on complaints that arise only from ideological number of Church of England schools have more objections to particular admissions criteria. than 80% intake from the Muslim community. Where As I say,there is no silver bullet for making admissions faith-based admissions criteria exist, they apply only fair and open to all, but I hope that the Minister when the school is oversubscribed and they tend to agrees that the future lies in all stakeholders working feature only in areas where alternative provision already together to help schools to improve their administrative exists. processes so that parents, wanting the very best for Of course some people have no objection to the their children, are better equipped to navigate what principle of schools that embody a Christian ethos but can be a difficult, confusing and sometimes puzzling strongly object to the idea of faith-based admissions system. GC 199 Schools: Admissions [LORDS] Schools: Admissions GC 200

4.35 pm debate the important issue of admissions arrangements. Lord Puttnam (Lab): My Lords, I thank the Whips’ I commend the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, on achieving Office for allowing me to speak in the gap, and I that, and welcome the fact that we are returning to the promise that I will not delay the Minister for very long subject following the QSD in my name on the specific at all. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord issue of the admissions code, which the House considered Lucas, for raising this issue. It is interesting to note in May. The admissions code underscores everything that over the almost 20 years that I have been a that has been said in the debate so far because the Member of your Lordships’ House, I typically follow “schools’admissions arrangements”referred to in the title the noble Lord in the speakers’ list for debates only to centre around the code. find that everything I wanted to say has already been I note what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of said by him—sometimes to the consternation of my St Albans said about schools themselves needing some own Benches. We have been ad idem most of the time assistance with the code, but parents also need help for many years. interpreting the code, and that is the nub of the The wonderful thing about being in this House is problem. Every parent, and I am one, knows of the that you are able to look back at your own experiences tension associated with doing their best to ensure that and try to offer them for the future. I should like their children secure a place at the school of the briefly to give the Minister a short, personal narrative. parents’ choice. Around 80% are successful in that The day King George VI died, 6 February 1952, was venture, which is commendable. However, when they the most important day of my life. It was the day I are not, they must, at the very least, have the knowledge took the 11-plus exam. I was 10 years old, and indeed that they were competing on a level playing field. most children sat the exam at that age. I have never The question of school admissions is very much a understood the extraordinary misnomer of 11-plus. I hot topic, with the Government—whether wittingly or passed, so I got a cap and a blazer and, unlike almost unwittingly—having reintroduced the subject of grammar all the other children at my primary school in north schools and the selection that that involves. The debate London, I went to a grammar school. I never saw my on grammar schools is for another day—in the not too friends from primary school again. An extraordinary distant future, perhaps, if rumours of an impending wall came down, with them on one side of it and me Green Paper are to be believed. However, as we just on the other, and I have never really fully recovered heard vividly from my noble friend Lord Puttnam, a from that. major and long-established problem with the 11-plus I am convinced that the only selection component exam, which is used to decide who is admitted to a involved in my passing the exam was the fact that my grammar school, is that well-off parents pay for coaching mother took herself off to Foyles bookshop on Charing or to get the exam papers in advance. That is a very Cross Road and bought a batch of old exam papers, sensible tactic, but not one that is available to everyone, which I was then required to go through. I vividly as not everyone is familiar with Foyles, far less with remember sitting in the exam room that day and the Charing Cross Road. It is an important point that seeing the absolute horror on the faces of the kids some children have additional assistance to get into a around me as the exam papers were turned over. grammar school. That is not a level playing field. At least I was familiar with what I was about to do. Last evening, the Prime Minister commented to I put it to the Minister that never can we go back to Tory MPs that she already believed there was selection a system where life’s chances are determined irrevocably in state schools, caused by the ability of some parents at the age of 10. I am here today because of that one to move to expensive housing in the catchment areas day in 1952. As he was reminded yesterday in Oral of high-performing schools. I very much agree with Questions, the 1944 Education Act had two routes. It her. But those who claim to live at advantageous offered the opportunity for children to retake the addresses are not always genuine in doing so and the 11-plus exam at the age of 13 or the opportunity to go admissions code should be a means of ensuring that to a technical college. There were no technical colleges that is not often the case. and I think that only around half a dozen were ever built. I am sure that the statistics are held by the The current system is open to abuse, and that is department, but I never knew a child to arrive at my where the admissions code comes in—at least, it ought grammar school having retaken and passed the 11-plus to. It is not acceptable simply to say that we cannot at 13 years old; it just did not happen. Effectively, my criticise parents for doing what they believe is in the entire generation’s life chances were determined at the best interests of their child. Actually, we can and we age of 10 or 11. should, if, in so doing so, parents are wrongly or unfairly depriving another child of a place that he or All I would ask the Minister to do is to remember she is entitled to. this story. I have the privilege of sitting in the House of Lords because my mum got on the Tube and bought a All state-funded schools in England must comply batch of old exam papers in Foyles. That opportunity with the School Admissions Code and the School was not afforded to the other 30 children in my class. Admission Appeals Code, and the statutory legislation that underpins them. Objections to admissions criteria and procedures can currently be submitted by anyone 4.39 pm to the Office of the Schools Adjudicator,whose decisions Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab): My Lords, in the are binding. However, as noble Lords will be aware, week in which many schools in England have returned for some months now, the Government have been from their summer holidays, it is appropriate that your putting forward plans to restrict those who can object Lordships’ House has been given the opportunity to to breaches of the code. GC 201 Schools: Admissions [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Schools: Admissions GC 202

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans “all the evidence suggests that those schools that are autonomous has already referred to the Fair Admissions Campaign or have autonomous admissions are those that are most socially and the British Humanist Association survey that was selective when compared to their localities”. carried out. It demonstrated that there are many schools Yet, regrettably, the Government are proposing changes with intakes more favourable than would be expected to the code that will reduce the number of complaints. given their location, and that these are often faith They are supposedly about “unclogging the system”. schools or other schools that control their own admissions. Neither I nor, I suspect, anyone else has any wish to The two organisations analysed the admissions policies clog the system; I certainly would not want to see of a sample of faith schools and found that virtually schools overburdened. However, the solution for any all of them broke the admissions code in one way or school that feels it is being or might be burdened by another. I accept what the right reverend Prelate said: complaints about code violations is quite simple: stick that in many case these were minor breaches. However, to the admissions code. If they do that, they will have they were breaches none the less, and the adjudicator few if any additional administrative demands placed upheld 87% of the objections put to her in 48 schools. upon them. People have said that that is only 48 schools, but to Slightly worryingly, the Secretary of State’s rationale repeat a remark I made in our debate in the Chamber at the time when the changes were put forward was: in May, we are told that a sample of 1,000 can give the “So that parents can be confident that the school admission opinions of 60 million. Therefore, 48 schools is a valid process is working for them”. sample, and a lot of important information was gleaned I fear that is little more than a coded message to those from that survey. The title of this debate is particularly who are able to benefit from the present arrangements. apposite in the light of those findings. Perhaps the Minister can explain how requiring schools The question is this: how do the Government provide to adhere to the rules in some way prevents school support to parents seeking to navigate their way through admissions codes from “working for them”. Taking what can be shark-infested waters? The admissions issues to the adjudicator is not about changing the system is becoming increasingly complicated and difficult rules; it is about enforcing them—unless of course for parents to find their way through, favouring as it “working for them” means benefiting from the current does those with the skills and the time needed to deal situation when rules are all too often breached. with it. There is another issue here: no one is involved in In the debate in May,I questioned the noble Baroness, enforcing or even monitoring the code. I asked the Lady Evans—whatever became of her?—as to what noble Baroness, Lady Evans, in May whether the the DfE had done to make sure that the schools Government would bring forward a means of ensuring identified in the survey as having breached the code that the code was at the very least monitored. She did had changed the way that they operate. The noble not give me an answer but said that the question was Baroness did not, at that time, give an answer, so I being looked at. Is there any update on that? The noble hope that the Minister may be able to now—perhaps Baroness said, the civil servants behind him can give him the information. “we are looking at whether we need to do more around Those schools surely cannot carry on as they were compliance”.—[Official Report, 11/5/16; col. 1786.] prior to that survey. I hope there may be something to say.The right reverend The issues identified by the survey are only part of Prelate the Bishop of St Albans said that one of the the story, because there are a considerable number of options was to strengthen the role of the schools devices used by schools that have been found to be adjudicator. If she was given more staff, monitoring acceptable under the code but which enable schools to might be an option. gain a more favoured intake. The level of segregation I contend it is essential that organisations concerned of pupils by faith and, less often, by ethnicity and about the manner in which the code is being adhered socioeconomic position is dangerously high. It is a to should retain the right to raise complaints. If it significant threat to social cohesion, which of course becomes widely accepted among parents that there is all schools have a duty to promote. in effect a two-tier system on admissions, cynicism will set in. For parents to come to believe that those with I was quite taken aback by the powerful contribution sharper elbows will crowd them out would be a gross by the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf. I knew that there distortion of what should be a fair and transparent were problems in the way the code does or perhaps system. It would lead to greater inequality and social does not operate, but I was unaware of the extent of it. disadvantage, which I am confident the Minister will I certainly knew nothing about the sixth-form aspect agree must not be allowed to happen. I hope he will set of it. Perhaps I might arrange to meet her at some time out how he proposes to ensure that that it is not. to discuss that in more detail, because it sounds like a serious problem. 4.48 pm In opening the debate, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, said that parents should choose schools. Surely that is TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department the bottom line; it should be for parents to choose the for Education (Lord Nash) (Con): My Lords, I am school that their children go to, not the school that extremely pleased to answer this Question for Short chooses the children. When the Schools Minister led a Debate, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Watson, said, revision of the code some years ago, it was driven by is particularly timely as children across the country his wish to allow anyone to object to malpractice. At take up their new school places this week. I start by that time, there was also a Select Committee inquiry. It making absolutely clear that our priority is to ensure received evidence from the Sutton Trust, which said, that the admissions system continues to fully support GC 203 Schools: Admissions [LORDS] Schools: Admissions GC 204

[LORD NASH] took over responsibility for schools in New York the parents. Choosing a school for their child is one of the admissions requirements were so complicated that most important decisions a parent makes and we want the average parent could not possibly work it out, to ensure they can easily understand how to navigate and that the government website, as sometimes can the admissions system and obtain a school place. I am happen, was rather difficult to fathom. They put the particularly grateful to my noble friend Lord Lucas for service out to tender to a whole lot of companies—no bringing this debate today as I have recently taken over doubt run by young tech wizards—and within a few responsibility for admissions—it is extremely prescient weeks had a number of apps which basically cracked of him to have organised such a helpful teach-in for the problem. me. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, I was looking at this and I would like to read what it for his comments about the Prime Minister’scommitment says on their website, as some of it might feel familiar. to social mobility and for bringing his valuable experience It says that research found that participants struggled to this debate. to find personal relevance amidst the superabundance Let me reassure noble Lords that right across the of admissions deadlines and data—I am sure that admissions system there are good processes in place to sounds familiar. Proceeding on the premise of support parents in applying for and obtaining a school certain understandings about how people experience place. Indeed, it is fundamental to the way the system choice-making and how design can influence human is designed. All schools, including academies, are bound experience—for example, that people do not just need by the School Admissions Code and other admissions data to make choices but ways of evaluating options law. The code makes it clear that when drawing up and relating those options to their own lived experiences admission arrangements the criteria should be fair, —iZone led six software developers through the first clear and objective. It stipulates that parents should school choice design challenge to create prototypes of be able to look at a set of arrangements and easily new digital tools to help students and families identify understand on what basis school places will be allocated. schools that fitted their interests and qualifications, This will help parents consider whether their child enhancing the school admissions process. Essentially, has a good chance of obtaining a place. The code they designed ways to actively support more engagement contains safeguards to ensure that the process of obtaining and meaning during the evaluation stage, which led to a place remains fair and transparent. For example, more informed choices, which produced better outcomes. schools are prohibited from prioritising applicants I thought that was very interesting and I can assure who have named the school as their first preference to noble Lords that we will investigate the iZone experience ensure parents are not restricted in their choice of in some detail. I would also be delighted to continue school. discussions with my noble friend Lord Lucas to see The process by which parents apply for places is what we can learn from that and other projects to also designed to make it as easy as possible for them to modernisetheadmissionsprocessandlessenitscomplexity. navigate. Although parents applying in the normal The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked about advice admissions round can express a preference for at least services.This is apparently not a compulsory requirement, three schools, they only have to submit one application although the school admissions code makes it clear form to a single deadline, directly to their local authority. that local authorities must provide advice and assistance We require local authorities to then work with all the to parents when they are deciding which schools to schools for which a parent has expressed a preference. apply for. However—the noble Lord will be familiar They then give all parents in their area a single offer of with this phrase—the number of local authorities a place at the parent’s highest preference school, which offering choice advice services is not centrally held has a place available for their child. We also require information. I can assure him that I will investigate the this offer to be made to all parents on a national offer issue further. day—1 March for secondary schools and 16 April for primary schools—so there is clarity and consistency. The noble Lord also mentioned Carol Dweck’s To support parents through the application process, growth mindset, which I am a great fan of. I strongly each year local authorities are, as my noble friend recommend that he visits the excellent free school in Lord Lucas mentioned, required to publish a prospectus Bradford, Trinity Academy,which practices this approach on admissions which contains information about how very strongly. I was struck by what the pupils had to parents can apply for a school place in their area. It say about their growth mindsets and I would be very also includes the admission arrangements for all happy to make that introduction. mainstream state schools in the area, including academies. I do not think at this stage, having been on my feet Thereafter, local authorities continue to be a valuable twice in the past 26 hours in relation to the matter of champion for local parents and provide them with grammars, that there is anything more I particularly advice, assistance and support throughout the whole want to say on the subject, except in relation to the admissions process. very moving points made by the noble Lord, Lord Having read all that from my brief, I was very Puttnam. We have no intention of turning the clock interested to hear what my noble friend Lord Lucas back and will consider all the issues in relation to any had to say about data, both as regards their accessibility increase in selection very carefully. and usability. I found many of the issues he raised On a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Watson, I quite compelling and I was put in mind of a talk given repeat what I said in the House yesterday: we are by somebody from New York a couple of years ago working with the Grammar School Heads Association about the New York iZone, which I think noble Lords to develop tests that it will be much harder to coach will be interested to investigate. He said that when he children for. GC 205 Schools: Admissions [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Legislation GC 206

The noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, made some very I want to talk about the unhealthy balance that has powerful points. I pay tribute to King’s Maths School— arisen over the years between the quantity of legislation which I have visited—which is producing a generation produced and sound government administration. In of new mathematicians. It is a very impressive particular, I want us to acknowledge and accept that establishment. I assure her that I share her suspicion while some legislation has succeeded in its objective, of complexity and her desire for simplicity, and I was much has failed badly and, in some cases, done more extremely interested in what she had to say about sixth harm than good. I am certain we can all think of our form admissions. I will look at that very carefully in own examples. my new brief. There can be no doubt that the volume of ill-considered The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans legislation has grown over the years. The average mentioned the vital role that Church schools play in length of Bills introduced to Parliament seems significantly this country. I pay tribute not only to that but to the greater than in previous decades. Multi-purpose Bills, important role they play in community cohesion. Some sometimes called Christmas tree Bills, are more common years ago, the University of York carried out a very than they were.Daniel Greenberg, a former parliamentary persuasive study to show that, in fact, Church schools counsel, argued in a report earlier this year: were the most inclusive in the country. “The length of new Bills and the number of clauses that they The noble Lord, Lord Watson, requested various include is becoming so great that Parliament is unable to properly information. As I said, I have just taken over responsibility scrutinise them”. for this brief but I will look at his points carefully. We He calculated that while the number of Acts passed by need to get it into context, though. Last year, the Governments had stayed “approximately the same” adjudicator received 218 objections, which is just 1% of over the last 50 years, the average number of clauses in schools. them has doubled. The system we have in place to support parents The Cabinet Office Guide to Making Legislation, ensures that the vast majority of children attend a prepared by the Secretariat to the Parliamentary Business school of their parents’ choice and 95% get one of and Legislation Committee of Cabinet, says: their top three choices. However, as we said recently, “The committee will look ‘favourably’ on bills that have been many parents still cannot get their kids into a good published in draft for consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny school close to them, and that is partly what any although, if a bill is ‘politically important’, then it may be given a reforms we come forward with would aim to improve. slot in the programme ‘before many of the details have been fully worked out’”. In the last few years, we have made great strides in creating new places; something that I am also responsible Green Papers and White Papers allowing the detailed, for now. We have created 600,000 new places in the last progressive and lengthy study of a proposed Bill are five years and have funds in place to create another now rarely produced. Some pre-legislative scrutiny of 600,000 over the next five years. We will continue to Bills is undertaken, but not always and not necessarily work hard to ensure that every child has access to a comprehensively. Because the old, once rare, guillotine good education so that they can go as far as their system in the House of Commons has been permanently talents and hard work can take them. transformed into the routine programming of all Bills, few Bills of any size get the scrutiny in Standing I thank all noble Lords again for their contributions Committee that all their clauses and schedules warrant. to this debate. As a result, a regular procession of ill-digested Bills makes its way to your Lordships’ House, where we 4.58 pm carry out our rightful revising role with as much Sitting suspended. patience and competence as time and the sheer volume of legislation will allow. In the last Session, while we were dealing with the Housing and Planning Bill, Legislation several Peers described it as the worst-prepared Bill Question for Short Debate they had ever seen in their lives. Manifestos are often unrealistic. They are frequently 5 pm designed to be eye-catching and dramatic and many Asked by Lord Framlingham government departments seem to feel obliged to bid for a slot for a Bill. As a result, the House of Lords is To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they continually being set unrealistic and frustrating volumes plan to consider the proposal that, for a period of of revising to undertake, and too often this produces time, all government departments should cease poorer, less effective legislation, with the people affected devising new legislation and concentrate on sound by it badly served and disillusioned. administration. This has become routine and accepted although, of course, it is completely unacceptable. It must change. Lord Framlingham (Con): My Lords, I am greatly It needs to be looked at through a new pair of eyes at privileged to have obtained this short debate. In the the highest level. Theresa May, our new Prime Minister, time allowed to me I wish to explore a broad yet has already shown by her words and deeds her willingness specific matter of principle rather than an individual to look afresh at some of our seemingly intractable problem. I am conscious that the attendance today problems. I sincerely hope she will see action on this is rather small but I am sure that the wisdom is great. issue as not only necessary in its own right but also I suspect that I will learn rather more than I impart likely to lead the whole government machine in a today. much more organised and competent direction. GC 207 Legislation [LORDS] Legislation GC 208

[LORD FRAMLINGHAM] with diesel pollution, and, in a rapidly shirking world, As I said earlier, we are all aware of the effect of we must decide whether we will continue to allow legislation in our national life, for good or ill—capital foreign investors to take control of our strategic industries. punishment, seat belts, Sunday trading, foxhunting, All this is on top of the day-to-day issues for the dangerous dogs.I take great pride in the Private Member’s economy, unemployment, welfare and so on. Bill I successfully took through the House of Commons What is important in all these issues is not to rush which had the world-shaking effect of extending the to legislate, not even to feel the need to make immediate coverage of a gun licence from three to five years. All decisions, but to discuss and debate in depth and at these Bills had specific and limited objectives. They length to come to the right decision and carry the were not, as has all too often happened in recent years, country with us. At the same time, every government attempts to micromanage by legislation. department should ensure that it is working as well as Let us deal with just health and education. Over the it can. Any serious shortcomings require the effort and last 50 years, there have been 95 Acts of Parliament to time-consuming task of legislation, rather than internal, do with the health service. In that time, we have departmental management correction. banished the traditional matron, who was the backbone In conclusion, I am trying to explain my belief in of every hospital in the country, totally altered nurse the need for a different approach to legislation—not training and completely reorganised the entire health too radical, but different; a shift that would see less service, and now what a desperate mess we are in. In major legislation, all of it better thought-through and the same period, we passed 52 Acts relating to education. all of it, with no exceptions, subjected to pre-legislative During this time, educational standards have fallen. scrutiny. Much more time would be spent, particularly Most grammar schools have disappeared. Teacher in your Lordships’ House, on debating honestly and at training has been completely altered and we even length the major issues of the day, with the time we stopped teaching children to read in the time-honoured spend on revising legislation being much more way of phonetics: “The cat sat on the mat”. And we proportionate and constructive. I believe this step wonder why children leave school unable to read. change in legislative pressure will be of huge benefit to Recently, a professor responsible for these matters said Parliament as a whole, the House of Lords in particular, that social mobility in this country is at its lowest level and the people we serve. for 40 years, with all the potential problems that implies. 5.10 pm These are huge issues in massive departments, affecting the lives of millions of people every day. We have got Lord Beith (LD): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord much of it badly wrong and done much damage to our Framlingham, has done us a great service—I would national fabric. Weneed to get it right—if not impossibly expect no less from a distinguished former Deputy perfect, at least much, much better. I am obviously not Speaker of the House of Commons—by focusing suggesting, as the title of this debate suggests, that attention on legislation and the alternative, which is there should be no legislation at all—although I must getting on with the job of running the country. In that say I find that prospect extremely tempting—just that respect, I am delighted to be debating once again with it should not be the first tool we reach for. It is a step my old friend the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, we should take reluctantly when it has become essential, who has never left office without buying a return not eagerly as a matter of policy. We should then take ticket. No Government in which his party is involved it only after the deepest and most careful consideration, can really cope without him, and we well understand in the conviction that no other routes are available. why. We have worked together in the past, including Legislation will never produce caring and competent during the coalition, and I hope he will agree that one nurses, thoughtful and inspiring teachers, or aspiring of the benefits of the coalition proved to be a degree pupils and parents. Personal desire, example and careful of extra restraint in some areas of legislation. If you instruction are surely the best way to achieve these have to get two parties to agree to proceed with a Bill, aims. Having created sound systems in our schools you have another hurdle over which to climb. and hospitals, we should, while keeping the closest The noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, referred to possible eye on standards, trust those responsible to the size and complexity of the statute book. As chairman get on with the job, not seek to micromanage through of the Justice Committee, I visited the National Archives. constant legislative tinkering. Gentle, thoughtful It is a wonderful place in that you see all the records improvement is often much more sensible and effective that you expect to see, but tucked away in the corner is than drastic and dramatic change, and crucially avoids a small group of people whom I did not know about the inevitable upheaval that is always expensive, so until I went there. Their job is to know what the law upsets people and systems, and often causes more actually is because they are the people who assemble problems than it solves. the statutes, statutory instruments, commencement As a country, we face so many difficult issues. It is orders and modifying orders. They are probably the the task of Parliament, not just the Government, to only people in the country who really know what the try to resolve them. Your Lordships’ House, with all law is and which bits of it are in force at any one time, its accumulated experience, is uniquely placed to help, because it has become so complex. but the list is a long one: education and, in particular, In some respects we have improved legislative scrutiny the serious problems with the NHS are far from resolved; to try to prevent some of these problems, but for much from immigration to population, from energy supplies of the time it is like trying to climb up a down to an ageing population, and from Hinkley Point to escalator. Pre-legislative scrutiny by Parliament has Heathrow Airport and on to HS2. We have to deal brought about a real improvement. Public Bill Committees GC 209 Legislation [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Legislation GC 210 in the Commons have also offered some significant measures relating to subsequent changes to EU law advantages, and then there is the essential work that in areas on which we continue to rely on what was this House does on so much legislation. previously EU law. As a Liberal Democrat, I believe that some degree It is a massive programme, and anyone who wants of restraint is needed when you decide to bring in new to know a bit more about it only needs to look at the laws. By nature, law tends to restrict the individual and report from the European Union Committee on therefore you should think twice and have a strong withdrawing from the European Union, which records justification for it. You should not bring in laws because Sir David Edward as saying that the Government, you have to be seen to do something. We are entering “would need to enact in law everything that it wanted to keep in that rather dangerous season of the party conferences, law, which is currently either the consequence of the direct effect when Ministers, in particular, feel that they have to of the EU Treaties or, for example, the product of a Directive”. throw some meat to the assembled ranks. Out of that It really is a massive legislative task. Departments are come commitments to bring in legislation. already finding that their civil servants are being borrowed Nor should you legislate as a signal. When I hear by the Department for Exiting the European Union, laws described as a signal that things have to change, I whose Ministers now proudly proclaim that they are know that the content of the legislation will probably increasing the size of their bureaucracy all the time, not be much use at all. It is really just another way of which is not what Conservative Ministers are supposed saying that we have to be seen to do something. That is to say. Not only that, but their time and energy within a particular problem in the area of criminal law, where the department will be involved in reviewing the whole we have so much criminal justice legislation. I will not corpus of European law which affects them. It may even bother to go into the statistics—we all know please the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, that at them. Much of that legislation simply makes the task least there will be some restraint on other laws being of those in the criminal justice system more difficult brought forward, but it is a bigger block in our system by increasing the number of mandatory sentences, for even than that. example. What can we do to improve the laws that we do However, I also believe that law is needed for some pass? Before we start, we should ask: is there anything purposes. It is needed to establish rights and to protect this Bill can do that cannot be done at least as well citizens from violence, fraud, abuse of power and under existing law? That is the primary question we environmental or health damage. It is also how we should always ask. Then, is the Bill fit for purpose? define the structure of governance—for example, how Has it been discussed in detail with those whom it will we might reform the House of Lords, which the coalition affect and their elected representatives in Parliament? proved unable to do. That requires changes in the law. Has it been through pre-legislative scrutiny and other Taxation also requires law. It is better to be regulated processes that allow it to be examined by people who by law than by the arbitrary use of executive power. really know what its impact would be? Has previous There are some countries that delight in not having law in this area had adequate post-legislative scrutiny many laws because the Executive have an enormous and are there any lessons to be learned from that? Has capacity to rule by decree, but that is not what we the proposed new law been tested for unintended want. Laws are also required to provide a framework impact and legislative clarity? for commerce and trade—in the sense of not just That, of course, is an argument for the quite often commercial companies but private individuals. At the canvassed idea of a legislative standards committee, moment I am one of those pressing for the Government which is not about the substance of law but about to do what they say they want to do when the legislative whether the law is framed in such a way that it can opportunity arises and provide legislation on the achieve its intended purpose. When I think about that guardianship of the property of missing persons. These proposal, I cast my mind back to the late Lord Renton— detailed matters are often dealt with in Private Members’ Sir David Renton—and the committee that I served Bills, which are important. on with him years ago, which looked at trying to However, legislation can be a distraction from vital improve the standard and quality of legislation. We things such as enforcement by departments, resourcing have to apply tests like that and recognise that sometimes in departments and the delivery and provision of in this country we rush to legislation when really services—the things that departments really should Governments should simply be doing their job properly. get on with. There is an elephant in the room, though, and departments will have to stop devising new laws 5.18 pm pretty soon. When I listened to the Queen’s Speech, I thought about what version might have been written if Lord Norton of Louth (Con): My Lords, it is a the referendum had already been held and gone the pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Beith, who way it eventually went. It would go roughly: “My started his professional life as a politics lecturer before Government will be wholly occupied with bringing being deflected by other interests. I congratulate my forward legislation to implement our exit from the noble friend Lord Framlingham on raising this important European Union, and no other measures will be laid question. I appreciate the sentiment that underpins before you”. That is not too far from the reality, the question and want to reinforce some of the points because there will be a gargantuan programme of advanced by my noble friend and indeed touched legislative change, including repeal of the 1972 Act upon by the noble Lord, Lord Beith. and replacement of the vast range of EU laws which We certainly need sound administration, but also apply directly in this country. If there are things that good legislation. I have some sympathy for the position have to be temporarily retained, there will need to be of Governments, as they are in a situation that they GC 211 Legislation [LORDS] Legislation GC 212

[LORD NORTON OF LOUTH] The Leader’sGroup on Working Practices recommended cannot win. If a Government bring forward a full in 2011 that such a committee be created. In 2013, the legislative programme for a session, they are criticised CommonsPoliticalandConstitutionalReformCommittee for legislating too much and we hear calls for less identified various standards that could be applied, legislation. If they fail to produce a full legislative including that a policy should be well tested, for programme, they are accused of running out of steam. example through the use of internal and external We have accusations of a “zombie Parliament”, with consultation. I know my noble friend Lord Young will parliamentarians filling time by debating issues instead argue that there is in effect such a committee within of being able to get to grips with legislative measures. government: the Parliamentary Business and Legislation We could well do with less legislation, but better Committee, where Bills are checked against certain legislation. Governments are too prone to legislate in standards before introduction. However, I fear that haste, usually on the basis that “something must be that argument is not persuasive in light of some of the done”, responding to a moral panic by seeking not to Bills that have been brought forward in recent years. educate but to placate. Too much rests on hope or There is much that both Houses can do to ensure beliefs and not enough on evidence. that legislation is improved but the fundamental challenge I want to follow up on my noble friend’s speech and lies with government. Parties tend to out-promise one identify some ways in which we can move forwards to another at elections and believe that problems can be achieving an improvement in the quality of legislation. solved by legislating them away. We are in danger of As has been mentioned, Parliament clearly has a role moving towards measures that impose obligations that to play in ensuring effective scrutiny. I too welcome are essentially aspirational—“By such and such a date, the use of pre-legislative scrutiny. It is a means of sin must be eradicated”—and without any attendant ensuring that a Bill is tested prior to the Government penalties. They do not keep to the Cabinet Office’s becoming too committed to its provisions while allowing own guidelines, a point that my noble friend touched for engagement with those outside Parliament who upon. They seek to take action but in a way that is not understand or are affected by the measure. appropriate to legislative propositions. Like my noble friend, I shall quote the Cabinet Office Guide to Making There are problems in terms of the timeframe for Legislation. It states at paragraph 10.9: such scrutiny and in the fact that pre-legislative scrutiny “It can sometimes be tempting to ask the drafter to prepare a is not the norm for Bills. When the Constitution provision that is not intended to change the law but is instead Committee undertook its review Parliament and the designed to serve some political purpose or to explain or emphasise Legislative Process in 2004, it was envisaged by government an existing law. However, non-legislative provisions of this sort that it would become the standard practice. Since are likely to go wrong because the courts will be inclined to then, the number of Bills subject to pre-legislative attribute legal effect to them on the grounds that that Parliament scrutiny has fluctuated from Session to Session. There does not legislate unnecessarily—and the legal effect attributed was a welcome increase in the last Parliament; I know may be one the Government could not have predicted”. that is something in which my noble friend Lord What is needed is a culture shift in government so that Young of Cookham can rightfully take some pride. legislation, as my noble friend has already said, is seen Indeed, in replying to this debate perhaps my noble as a last resort, not as a useful political tool for giving friend could give some indication of the Government’s the impression that something is being done. In the plans for, and commitment to the principle of, pre- long term, the use of legislation for this purpose legislative scrutiny. undermines the impact of legislation. It is an extremely positive development that your I fear that the defence that the number of Bills Lordships’House now has a role to play in post-legislative introduced by government has not increased in recent scrutiny. Post-legislative review by departments has years will not work. It is the volume of legislation that been the norm since 2008. I very much welcome that, counts, and that applies to primary and secondary as it derives from the recommendation of the Constitution legislation. Nor is the defence open to government Committee’s 2004 report. However, no mechanism that the quality of legislation is improving. That is was set in place for post-legislative scrutiny by either belied by looking at some of the Acts that have made House. That has changed, with at least one ad hoc it on to the statute book in recent years. Tomorrow we committee being appointed in this House each Session shall be debating a Private Member’s Bill designed to to review one or more Acts covering a subject. That correct some of the failings of the Transparency of scrutiny has proved productive and we should seek to Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning and Trade Union build on it. Post-legislative scrutiny can improve the Administration Act 2014. That is a prime example of quality of legislation, in that if a department knows how not to legislate. Part 1 is supposedly to do with that a measure will be subject to it, it is more likely to transparency of lobbying. If the short titles of Acts of focus on ensuring that the provisions are crafted to Parliament were subject to the Trade Descriptions deliver what is expected of the measure. In short, the Act, the Government would not have a leg to stand measure of success will shift from being Royal Assent on. The 2014 Act is not concerned with lobbying—it to whether it has achieved its purpose. Stipulating how focuses on the person, the lobbyist, and not the activity— one will know that a measure has been successful will and does nothing to enhance transparency. also help to concentrate minds, providing a clear basis On the face of it, the Cabinet Office Guide to for assessment when an Act is scrutinised. Making Legislation is a model of best practice, but it Like the noble Lord, Lord Beith, I am persuaded comes up against Ministers wanting to get their big that there is a case for a legislative standards committee Bills on to the statute book and against successive to ensure that Bills meet clear standards when introduced. Governments wanting to be seen to be taking action. GC 213 Legislation [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Legislation GC 214

As has been touched upon, my noble friend Lord When looking at the amount of legislation, we have Young has gone from poacher to gamekeeper—I estimate to look at both primary legislation and secondary four times—in his distinguished parliamentary career. legislation. Part of the picture is the number of Bills He is ideally placed to recognise the scale of the and the amount of delegated legislation, but that is problem, so I look forward to him telling us what the only part of the picture; as we have heard, it is also its Government are doing to achieve that essential culture complexity.The noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, referred shift and to produce not more but better legislation. to “Christmas tree Bills”. There are not baubles and presents on those Bills. It seems to me that “kitchen sink Bills” might be a more appropriate term for them. 5.28 pm It seems that as a Bill progresses through Parliament, Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, this more and more things are thrown into it. I remember has been an interesting and stimulating debate. I must dealing with the Immigration Bill and the Criminal admit, I made some notes before I came in but I Justice Bill, which got bigger and bigger—like snowballs wanted to hear the debate first before deciding in what rolling down a hill picking up more and more as they direction to take some of my comments. I am grateful went along. That does not work. It also undermines to the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, who has done scrutiny as things are introduced later. the Committee a service today. He has focused our We have not really talked about the use of secondary minds on an issue which goes right to the heart of legislation and its complexity. Tax credits are a good what we do. It feels slightly odd to welcome the noble example. Whether we consider that the Government Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, to his new responsibilities were technically correct to bring the SI forward or in government. The noble Lord, Lord Norton, described were even wise to use an SI for that issue, there is no him as a poacher turned gamekeeper, but I always doubt that a controversial policy matter was brought thought that the life of a Minister was more that of to Parliament through a statutory instrument. We are the quarry in many ways, so perhaps he has gone from seeing that now in primary legislation. The noble poacher to gamekeeper and then, as Minister, back to Lord, Lord Framlingham, quoted the Cabinet Office being the quarry. However, I hope he will not feel that guidance on politically important Bills, which might in this debate. not have been addressed in detail before they being We understand that we are part of the legislature. introduced to the House. The Childcare Bill was in Our role is different from that of the House of Commons, effect only a framework Bill. It lacked detail. It was a and as an unelected House it is rightly both constrained very cavalier approach. and specific. Weare a scrutinising and revising Chamber. It strikes me that perhaps that is sometimes one of The proposal today is not to be taken literally—it the problems of a Lords starter. Governments always would be a big leap to go from too much legislation to use Lords starters for the most non-controversial Bills, no legislation—but it is a mechanism to allow the but because a Bill is non-controversial in its principle experience in this House to consider the basic principles does not mean we will not want to look at the detail to of why we legislate and how we can do it better. We ensure that the Bill carries out the policy intention have heard some of those principles already: we should that has been announced. The problem with the Childcare legislate with care; we should bring in new legislation Bill was that it was thought it could be started in the only if Parliament also ensures that there are the House of Lords as it was not controversial, yet the means to enforce it; and we should take post-legislative lack of detail was embarrassing. There was no financial scrutiny far more seriously. information, and we could not be confident that the It is understandable that any potential Government detail supported the policy objective. There have been set out the legislative programme on which they seek other examples in this Session. The Children and to be elected. Once elected, there is a duty on that Social Work Bill and the Buses Bill have far too many Government to implement the commitments in that pieces of secondary legislation attached to them, 20 or manifesto in the lifetime of the Parliament. It is the 30 pieces in both cases, and as we go down the line, we nature of the political system that new Governments will see more. have new programmes. I was interested in the list of We have heard some suggestions about the way legislation that the noble Lord, Lord Framlingham, forward. All legislation needs great clarity of purpose referred to. I felt that he did not like the Labour at the very beginning. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Government’s legislation. Fox hunting and the death Young, will also recognise that we need to be careful penalty are two causes particularly dear to my heart. about Ministers coming back from Cabinet meetings He mentioned those as things that perhaps we should boasting about how much parliamentary time they not have done. They would be at the top of my list of have got for legislation as a mark of honour. things that should be done. That is the nature of the political system: different parties will have different We should also look at how much legislation is not policies, which by nature will be contradictory.Obviously, properly enforced. There have been no prosecutions some will have a higher priority than others, and issues under the FGM legislation. So often now the police will come along. Circumstances can change and make are telling us that they cannot implement or enforce legislation in the manifesto more or less desirable, but certain laws. As there is so much legislation, they do there is also the matter that all noble Lords have not have the resources to implement it. We have ended referred to, which is that issues will arise and a response up in a position where other agencies are making is needed. That response too often becomes a legislative decisions about which laws to implement and which to response. “Legislate in haste and repent at leisure” not. That has been taken away from Parliament. Does might be worth adopting in this regard. that mean we have too much legislation? It may, in GC 215 Legislation [LORDS] Legislation GC 216

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] by the noble Lord, Lord Beith. During my time as some cases, but it may just mean that we are passing Leader of the House in the other place, we were able legislation without ensuring that we have the means or to sift out a large number of prospective Bills with that resources to enforce it. particular challenge. My final point is about the adequacy of post-legislative The Government are of course responsible for a lot scrutiny. Once legislation is passed by Parliament, of the demand for new legislation, but there are others. there is no automatic, systematic, effective mechanism Our statute book stretches back to the 11th century, so to monitor its effectiveness. That might deal with we have inherited quite a lot. Ministers are lobbied on some of the issues about how much legislation we a daily basis to reform different aspects of the law. have. It could be done through a Joint Select Committee Indeed, we need look only at your Lordships’ House of both Houses. I am not really fussed about the where 51 noble Lords have sought a place in the ballot mechanism, but we have to address the issue and look for their own Bills, some of which are to be debated much more seriously at post-legislative scrutiny. tomorrow. As the noble Lord, Lord Beith, said, a Finance Bill is required each year to prevent certain 5.35 pm taxes from lapsing, and quite often we need emergency legislation to respond to events such as in Northern Lord Young of Cookham (Con): My Lords, I join Ireland and elsewhere. The noble Lord, Lord Beith, other noble Lords in congratulating my noble friend eloquently made the case for a measure of legislation. Lord Framlingham on giving us the opportunity to debate this important subject. The bait that he put on However, we also need legislation to achieve the the hook may not have attracted very many fish, but it changes set out in a party manifesto. This Government has attracted some very big fish. It has been a good have already legislated for several manifesto commitments. debate with sound advice and recommendations for Sound administration, which is mentioned in the second Governments of all complexions. I am grateful for the half of my noble friend’s Question, in itself requires kind words that people have said about me personally. good, relevant legislation to underpin it. Indeed, in I feel like one of those fireworks that everyone thinks some cases legislation can be deregulatory or can has gone out, and you are about to pick it up and simply consolidate and simplify existing legislation. throw it away when suddenly it bursts into flame The Deregulation Act 2015, for example, contained a before finally expiring. wide range of measures to relieve unnecessary burdens on public authorities, or the Cities and Local Government Putting this debate in context, legislation is an Devolution Act 2016 which will improve administration important function of Parliament but not the only by pushing back on overcentralisation—I am sure my one. There is the key function of holding the Government noble friend will welcome those particular pieces of to account and debating the important issues of the legislation. On top of that, we have regular legislation day. In the time that I have been in Parliament, there from the law commissions to update and tidy the has been a shift in the centre of gravity away from statute book. legislation on the Floors of the Houses towards scrutiny by the Select Committees. I am sure that that is a I know that some of your Lordships have concerns process which my noble friend would welcome. I recall about the quantity of government legislation. That that in a recent debate my noble friend Lord Norton was one of the themes of the excellent debate we had of Louth noted that Parliament is now arguably at its on 9 June when we went around some of this course. I strongest in modern political history in scrutinising reassure noble Lords that legislation has actually decreased the Executive. in recent years. Only about 750 statutory instruments I have enormous sympathy with the proposition were laid in the last Session, fewer than in any other that my noble friend has put forward: that there should Session since 1997. The average since 1997 is nearly be reluctance before we legislate and we should do it double that, at 1,315. Over the whole of the last only when there is no other route. During my time as Parliament, fewer statutory instruments were laid than Leader in another place, I chaired the Cabinet sub- in any Parliament since 1997, and of course the last committee responsible for the legislative programme, Parliament, unlike most of its predecessors, ran for a the PBL, which meant overseeing the process of drawing full five years. It is a similar story for primary legislation. up the programme of Bills. I can assure my noble Twenty-six government Bills were introduced in the friend that under any Government the demand for previous Session compared with an average of 35 since legislation exceeds the capacity, and it may please him 1997. The previous Parliament saw fewer government to know that many government Ministers went away Bills introduced than in any Parliament since 1997—again, empty-handed when they were told there was no slot despite its longer than average length. in the legislative programme for their ambitious social In my experience, as has been said in the debate, reforms. Part of the job was to ensure not just that the Governments are criticised either for legislating too Bills were in good shape but that the totality of the much or for not bringing forward enough legislation, Bills in the programme was commensurate with the and indeed we had accusations of a zombie Parliament capacity of Parliament to scrutinise it. at the tail end of the previous Parliament. From a Government departments have to go through a business manager’s point of view, with fixed-term fairly rigorous process before they are given access to Parliaments and five equal Sessions, it should prove primary legislation; it is a bidding process and quite easier to plan the legislative programme as we move competitive. One of the things that business managers forward rather than worrying that the Prime Minister always do is push back to see whether a policy can be will push the button after three and a half years and delivered without resorting to legislation, a point made you have to get everything through quickly. However, GC 217 Legislation [8 SEPTEMBER 2016] Legislation GC 218 we also have to be prepared for extra legislation, as we the coalition was such that no one party could pursue have seen in the wake of the EU referendum, and I will its individual policy through the Civil Service, so the come on to that in a moment. first Session was different. My noble friend is right to point out that it is I agree with everything that has been said about important that as well as passing legislation, we continue the virtues of draft legislation and pre-legislative to deliver good policy.This Government are committed scrutiny. We are committed to publishing Bills in draft to ensuring that we maintain the right balance between where possible. Examples before the House at the developing new policy and delivering it effectively. moment are the Investigatory Powers Bill and the Within government and alongside Cabinet committees, draft Wales Bill. the implementation task forces monitor progress on The noble Lord, Lord Beith, said quite rightly that implementing existing policies. The Government also the coalition imposed a slightly finer sieve through which track delivery of progress on their priorities through legislative proposals had to pass. That was certainly the single departmental plans. These set out each the case and it took slightly more time to develop policy department’s priority objectives, the key programmes because of the coalition. and policies that will deliver them and the metrics by The noble Lord asked about the impact of the which performance can be measured. These show the decision to exit the European Union. All I can say is importance that the Government attach to ensuring that, in preparation for the negotiations to leave the good policy rather than simply reaching for yet another EU, the Government are undertaking work across a change to the statute book. range of areas, including with their legal teams, to The Select Committees—not least the Public Accounts establish how best to deliver the Government’sobjectives. Committee—also have a key role in monitoring existing That covers the issue that the noble Lord raised about policies, and I will return to that in a moment. We also separating domestic law from EU law. have a regulatory policy that requires the equivalent of I entirely agree with what has been said about the £3 of regulatory burden on business to be lifted for importance of post-legislative scrutiny.Each government every £1 of new burdens imposed. That is independently department produces a memo on Acts five years after audited and the Government have set a target of Royal Assent, which is then passed to the House of lifting £10 billion-worth of burden by 2020. Commons but, with relatively few exceptions, the Select I shall try to deal with some of the points raised Committees have other priorities and most memos during this interesting debate. I mentioned the number have not been scrutinised by Parliament. It is not the of Bills, but I may have heard someone ask about the fault of the Government, to that extent, that there has number of pages. While the number of Bills and not been post-legislative scrutiny; it is simply that statutory instruments may have dropped, it is asserted Select Committees—for very good reasons,possibly—have that the number of pages has increased. That was true other priorities than looking at those reports. up until 2010, but again in the previous Parliament the In conclusion, my noble friend has raised an important number of pages of primary legislation was lower question, one that Governments grapple with every than in any of the three previous Parliaments. Between day, and there is a balance to be struck. Of course, we 1997 and 2010, on average more than 3,000 pages of should not seek endlessly to change the law without primary legislation were introduced per year,but between stopping to consider whether the current law is working 2010 and 2015, the figure fell to fewer than 2,650. or looking at the impact that there would be on My noble friend Lord Framlingham made a point business or civil society. But legislation is often needed about scheduling Bills. It is indeed the case that when simply to make the changes that the people elected this he was in another place, in the 2005-10 Parliament, Government to enact. It does not have to and it should there was regular guillotining of Bills and inadequate not come at the expense of sound administration— time was left. In the 2010 Parliament, it changed. All on the contrary. It can support and enable effective credit to the Opposition as well as the Government for government. making that change. Nowadays, programme Motions I heed the warning from my noble friend that we are increasingly agreed by discussion through the usual should be mindful about the amount of legislation channels and it is relatively unusual, although not that we bring forward. I hope he will be comforted totally exceptional, for the programme Motion to be that the overall numbers have decreased under a voted against because of that discussion. That may Conservative Government. The lesson that I will take not automatically guarantee that there is enough time away from this debate is that of the three words used for debate in Committee, but it shows that a genuine by my noble friend Lord Norton: “Less, but better”. I attempt is being made to ensure adequate time. thank my noble friend and others who have spoken in I think that lessons can be learned from the Housing this valuable debate. and Planning Bill, but it is worth making the point that in the first Session of a Parliament there is less opportunity to deal with Bills in draft. The nature of Committee adjourned at 5.47 pm.