Wednesday Volume 494 24 June 2009 No. 98

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 24 June 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; Tel: 0044 (0) 208876344; e-mail: [email protected] 777 24 JUNE 2009 778

rightly made the case. I hope she will understand when I House of Commons point her to the work of the World Bank and other international financial institutions on infrastructure in Wednesday 24 June 2009 Ukraine and other countries. We will continue to watch the regional economic needs of Ukraine through our involvement with those institutions. The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Mr. (South-West Devon) (Con): Given PRAYERS the strategic significance of Ukraine as a political buffer zone between the EU and , does the Minister not think that it was perhaps an error of judgment to close [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] the DFID programme in Ukraine last year? It would be an utter tragedy if Ukraine’s democracy should fail, so BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS should we not at the very least be running significant capacity-building programmes to support it? SPOLIATION ADVISORY PANEL Resolved, Mr. : We are running capacity-building programmes on democracy and good governance through That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Indeed, the before this House a Return of The Report from the Right European Commission is also running such programmes. Honourable Sir David Hirst, Chairman of the Spoliation As I indicated in answer to my right hon. Friend the Advisory Panel, dated 24 June 2009, in respect of eight drawings Member for Stirling (Mrs. McGuire), we continue to now in the possession of the Samuel Courtauld Trust.—(Kerry make the case for further involvement from donors to McCarthy.) Ukraine. Substantial donor programmes are available through international financial institutions, and we are closely involved in the decisions that they take. Given Oral Answers to Questions our need to focus on the poorest countries, I believe that that is the right way forward.

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): Last weekend the World Bank published its global economic outlook, The Secretary of State was asked— which predicted that developing countries will lose $1 trillion as a result of the economic downturn. What is the Ukraine Minister’s Department doing to identify the countries that will be most badly hit and to ensure that development 1. Mrs. Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): What assessment aid is provided to enable them to deal with the downturn? he has made of the effect of the global economic downturn on Ukraine’s need for development aid from Mr. Thomas: I know that my hon. Friend takes a his Department. [281790] particular interest in economic growth through his work on the Select Committee on International Development. The Minister of State, Department for International He will know from the leadership of the Prime Minister Development (Mr. Gareth Thomas): On a personal note, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that we Mr. Speaker, may I add my congratulations to those of led work at April’s G20 summit to secure additional others on your election as Speaker? resources for the IMF and the World Bank to focus on The World Bank expects Ukraine to experience a the needs of the poorest people in countries that have significant recession in 2009. To counter the impact of been most devastated by the impact of the global recession. the recession, the International Monetary Fund has We will look to ensure that that support, having been agreed a package with the Ukrainian Government worth committed, is delivered to those international financial $16.4 billion. Other international institutions are standing institutions. by if needed. Mrs. McGuire: I thank my hon. Friend for his response. Afghanistan He will be aware that western Ukraine has often been referred to as the bread basket of the country, yet it 2. Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): What appears to lack the basic storage and transport steps he is taking to assess the effectiveness of his infrastructure needed to improve efficiency, eliminate Department’s programmes in Afghanistan. [281791] poverty and even out some of the inequalities between itself and other regions. Given Ukraine’s ambition to join or draw closer to the EU, does my hon. Friend not The Secretary of State for International Development agree that there remains a need for the UK to give (Mr. ): DFID’s work in Afghanistan assistance, principally through his Department? from 2001 to date was independently evaluated in 2008. All DFID projects have clear, measurable benchmarks Mr. Thomas: I commend my right hon. Friend’s to ensure accurate and reliable monitoring in accordance interest in Ukraine and I recognise her description of with DFID procedures. The office in Kabul has established the regional needs of the part of the country to which a dedicated results team to monitor the effectiveness of she refers. She will recognise that there are significant our work. We are also planning an independent assessment costs involved in the infrastructure for which she has of DFID’s ongoing work in Helmand province. 779 Oral Answers24 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 780

Mr. Harper: I am grateful to the Secretary of State along with the development partnership agreement that for that answer. NATO’s Secretary-General said that we have for Pakistan, there has been a significant the problem in Afghanistan was not too much Taliban, rebalancing of our programme in recent months towards but too little good governance. Over the next four years, the needs of education, in particular, in Pakistan. I will nearly half the Department’s funding to Afghanistan be happy to write to the hon. Gentleman on this matter. will be channelled through that country’s Government. What steps will the Secretary of State take to ensure Mr. Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): that corruption in that country is tackled effectively? Congratulations on your election, Mr. Speaker. Your interest in international development is well known, Mr. Alexander: There are two dimensions to the hon. and is very welcome. Gentleman’s question. First, he is right to recognise the At the last DFID questions, the Secretary of State significance of governance, which is one of the four claimed that his Department withdrew funding to the identified priorities for the approximately £510 million development programme—UNDP— that we will spend between 2009 and 2013. I concur Afghanistan counter-narcotics trust fund as soon as with the view that it is not the strength of the Taliban serious weaknesses became apparent. However, I have but the weakness of the Government that poses one of obtained an internal DFID memo that reveals that the the significant challenges—along with others—that NATO Secretary of State’s predecessor was clearly warned and the Afghan people face in the years ahead. about anticipated problems with the fund before Ministers The hon. Gentleman also asked about corruption, signed off £20 million for it. Will the Secretary of State which we are approaching in a number of ways. First, in explain why Ministers ignored those warnings? relation to UK funds, we are working through the Afghan reconstruction trust fund, which is independently Mr. Alexander: It will not come as a surprise to the audited by recognised accountants from outside the House that I am unfamiliar with the memo the hon. country. We have a degree of confidence in those systems. Gentleman describes. I can assure hon. Members that We are also supporting efforts to strengthen the capacity the UNDP’s internal evaluation unit recently evaluated of the Government, because corruption is a consequence operations in Afghanistan, and it was on that basis that and a cause of the poverty affecting Afghanistan. ministerial decisions were reached.

Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): As my right hon. Mr. Mitchell: Let me read to the Secretary of State Friend knows, abuse at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad from the memo, which Ministers received before signing caused untold damage to the coalition at the time. Now, off that money. It warned that, in Afghanistan, the allegations have been made by the BBC about the abuse UNDP’s reporting is “poor”, and that it suffers from a of detainees at Bagram air base in Afghanistan. Will he “lack of experienced people” who tell me what action he proposes to take? “only do the minimum in terms of their contractual obligations”. Yet, so far this year, the Secretary of State has signed off Mr. Alexander: Not least because I heard the allegations another £40 million for the UNDP in Afghanistan. Will on the radio only this morning, I am not in a position to he pledge today to launch an urgent investigation into give my right hon. Friend the detailed answer her question whether UK funds have been misused, and to instigate deserves, but I will endeavour to speak to my colleagues a full review of the taxpayers’ money given to the in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and ensure UNDP in Afghanistan? that an answer is forthcoming. Mr. Alexander: We are always seeking to ensure that Mr. Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and UK taxpayers’ money is used effectively and properly, Selkirk) (LD): Mr. Speaker, may I add my congratulations whether through the UNDP or other parts of our aid to you on your election on Monday, and may I wish you programme. It is right to recognise that the review that many happy years occupying the Chair? was published identified weaknesses within the UNDP’s approach regarding co-ordination, a focus on short-term Following the Secretary of State’s previous answer, rather than long-term priorities, and the need to simplify may I ask him, in the context of the ’ and strengthen financial rules. It is on that basis that we major reassessment of its strategy towards Afghanistan have acted. The review is not a secret document; it is and Pakistan, and of the tragic loss of life following the available on the UNDP’s internet site, and I can assure recent drone attack, how we are going to win hearts and the hon. Gentleman that it informs the decisions that minds in Afghanistan and to what extent he is reconfiguring my Department is reaching. his country plan to recognise those problems?

Mr. Alexander: The hon. Gentleman’s question has a Humanitarian Assistance (Pakistan) number of aspects. We recognise that there is a powerful connection between the interests of the people of 3. Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): Afghanistan and those of the people of Pakistan. In the What assistance his Department has provided to statement that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister improve the humanitarian situation in north-west made to the House on 29 April, it was made clear that Pakistan in the last 12 months. [281794] we are taking a joined-up approach in what is colloquially called the “AfPak” strategy, because there is a strong 7. Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) strategic interest in having a stable and secure state on (Lab): What steps his Department is taking with both sides of the border. It is of course necessary for the international partners to ensure the direct delivery of forces of extremism that threaten Afghanistan and Pakistan aid to internally displaced persons in the autonomous to be tackled not solely by military means. That is why, tribal areas of northern Pakistan. [281798] 781 Oral Answers24 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 782

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Mr. Foster: The hon. Gentleman is right to point out International Development (Mr. Michael Foster): My the difficulties in providing aid, especially in the front-line Department has made available £22 million for areas. To be honest, we have no real assessment of the humanitarian assistance in Pakistan, which is helping number of people who have been displaced and are still those displaced by conflict in the federally administered beyond the front line. Our difficulty is enabling safe tribal areas as well as those displaced in North West access to those areas for our aid workers. Frontier province. With our international partners, we are ensuring that humanitarian assistance reaches those (Manchester, Central) (Lab): Pakistan is who need it most through established co-ordination different: the humanitarian situation requires help in its mechanisms for allocating finance, clear funding criteria own right, but that country is also a vital strategic ally and careful monitoring. of this country. Will the Government put pressure on the rest of the EU to take on its own share of funding Sandra Osborne: For months, the international the humanitarian assistance? Frankly, our European community has been urging Pakistan to act against the allies are not doing enough. Taliban in the north-west territories. Millions of people have paid the price with death, destruction and internal Mr. Foster: My hon. Friend will be interested to displacement. Given the number of people living with know that just last week—at the Europe-Pakistan summit, host communities, what support can DFID provide in on 17 June—the European Commission made an additional the circumstances? pledge of some ¤65 million to deal with the issue he Mr. Foster: My hon. Friend is right to point out the raises. fact that an estimated 2.4 million people have been displaced as a result of the conflict, the vast majority of Mr. Mark Lancaster (North-East Milton Keynes) whom are living in host communities. To ensure that aid (Con): A few moments ago, the Minister acknowledged gets to those living in host communities, we have helped that British NGOs face a serious funding shortfall in to establish 34 separate aid stations to enable the fair Pakistan, but, with the monsoon season approaching, distribution of aid. 45 per cent. of the money that his Department has announced remains unallocated to specific projects. Mr. Clarke: In view of the importance of security in Can he simply reassure the House that there is a plan northern Pakistan to NATO’s efforts in Afghanistan, and explain exactly where that money will be spent? does the Minister share my concern that the aid agencies and NGOs are clearly underfunded? Can we give some Mr. Foster: I can indeed give the hon. Gentleman that thought to ensuring that proper resources are made assurance. I can also tell him that where concerns have available? been expressed about the speed at which aid through the UN has been allocated, we have taken the exceptional Mr. Foster: My right hon. Friend has a long and decision to fund NGOs directly to speed up the process distinguished record of interest in development. The of getting aid to those people in need. Pakistan humanitarian response plan is 35 per cent. funded and the International Committee of the Red Development Agenda Cross appeal is 59 per cent. funded, but it is clear that more could and should be done. We are actively lobbying with other countries, including the Government of Pakistan, 4. Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): What has to do more. been made on implementing the development agenda from the G20 communiqué. [281795] Alistair Burt (North-East Bedfordshire) (Con): A group of international aid agencies reckons it has a The Secretary of State for International Development deficit of about £22.5 million in dealing with the (Mr. Douglas Alexander): The London summit achieved humanitarian consequences of conflict in the Swat valley. important development outcomes, including a commitment Within that, World Vision—a charity with which you, to provide additional funds—mainly through the Mr. Speaker, and I have a particular connection—reports international financial institutions—for many of the a deficit of about £7.5 million. Is there anything that the poorest countries. We are working closely with partners Minister and the Department can do directly to be to ensure that summit agreements are now fully involved with that group of charities and the problems implemented. it faces in the Swat valley? Malcolm Bruce: In welcoming you to the Chair, Mr. Foster: The UK’s bilateral contribution of £22 million Mr. Speaker, may I say, as Chairman of the International is the second largest made by any nation to deal with Development Committee, that while the House has the humanitarian crisis. On the specific lobbying on gained a great deal, I am afraid that our Committee has behalf of World Vision, I am happy to meet the hon. lost a great deal? We very much appreciate your Gentleman and to talk to my officials to see what we contribution. can do to help him. I thank the Secretary of State for his answer, but does Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): Aid to he not acknowledge that the economic downturn and this region is enormously important not only from a climate change have mostly been caused by the G20, yet humanitarian perspective, but politically, considering the impact is felt mostly by poor and developing countries? the circumstances. How is the Department dealing with What steps will he take to ensure that the Copenhagen the difficult challenge of the tribal regions and the fact summit delivers for the poor, that there is a Doha that a lot of the region is still controlled by the Taliban, development round, and that the pledges made at particularly the Swat valley? Gleneagles will be not only maintained but supplemented? 783 Oral Answers24 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 784

Mr. Alexander: As befits the Chair of the International development aid we give Pakistan, we must make it Development Committee, the right hon. Gentleman clear to its Government that unless they sort out some asked three questions rather than one. On trade, I fundamental machinery of government issues and make assure him that we are continuing to work with our basic joined-up government work, none of that aid will colleagues in the in endeavouring to be of any real long-term benefit. reach the conclusion to the Doha development round that eluded us last year. As we look ahead to the G8 Mr. Foster: I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman meeting in L’Aquila and other international gatherings, about the importance of governance, or about the role we will continue to press the countries that made agreements of Government in helping donors such as the United at Gleneagles to meet the commitments that were made Kingdom to get their support on to the ground to meet back in 2005. the needs of the people whom both he and I want to In relation to climate change, I assure the House that help. we recognise the importance of Europe’s assuming a leadership role, as it did at the time of the Kyoto Middle East agreement. We also recognise, in the context of common but differentiated responsibilities, that many of the 6. Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) countries that have been worst affected by climate change (LD): What recent assessment he has made of the bear the least responsibility for generating the emissions humanitarian situation in Gaza; and if he will make a that have caused it. statement. [281797] Education (Pakistan) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Mr. Michael Foster): The 5. Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): What recent conflict earlier this year intensified an already difficult steps his Department has taken to support projects to humanitarian situation in Gaza. The pace of deterioration increase literacy amongst girls in Pakistan. [281796] has slowed since the ceasefire in January, but the humanitarian situation remains extremely serious. Around The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for 90 per cent. of Gazans still partly depend on food aid. International Development (Mr. Michael Foster): My Department has set aside a total of £250 million over Success of the response effort continues to depend on five years to improve education in Pakistan. We are opening the crossings from to allow movement of designing programmes in North West Frontier province, materials and personnel into Gaza. The UK presses the Punjab and Balochistan that will increase girls’ access Israeli Government regularly on this issue. to school and improve both their literacy and their numeracy. We are already financing stipends so that Mr. Carmichael: To say that the situation is serious is 300,000 girls in North West Frontier province can attend masterful understatement; it verges on the desperate. school, and the same programme is providing text books There can, however, be no improvement until the borders for 4.3 million girls and boys. are opened. What are the Government doing to impress on the Israeli Government the need to let the basic Mr. Prentice: That is marvellous, and we applaud the foodstuffs and essentials of everyday life through the Government for their action, but does it not make you border crossing points and into Gaza? weep, Mr. Speaker, that Pakistan spends 60 per cent. of its budget on defence and 11 per cent. on education, Mr. Foster: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: and that 42 per cent. of women and girls are illiterate? access through the border crossings from Israel into What can we do to persuade Pakistan to change its Gaza is essential to deal with development aid and to warped sense of priorities whereby more money is spent help complement the long-term peaceful political solution on guns than on education? that is needed in that part of the world.

Mr. Foster: My hon. Friend is right to point out that Dr. Phyllis Starkey (Milton Keynes, South-West) (Lab): Pakistan’s education spending of just 2.4 per cent. of A number of British charities are active in Gaza, one of GDP is among the lowest in the world. He is also right which is Interpal. Its ability to deliver development aid to point out that if we are serious about tackling is being seriously constrained by its inability to access poverty and social exclusion and dealing with the grievances international clearing banking facilities. Will the Minister that lead to insecurity, education must play a central meet the charity to see— role. [Interruption.] Mr. Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the Mr. Speaker: Order. Far too many private conversations hon. Lady, but I am not sure whether she can be heard, are taking place. Members asking questions should be and there are still far too many private conversations heard, and so should Ministers answering them. taking place.

Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): After the earthquake Dr. Starkey: Will the Minister meet representatives of in Kashmir, we raised enough money in Banbury to Interpal to discuss the difficulties it is having, and to see build a whole new girls’ school in the Pakistan-occupied what help the British Government can offer? part of Kashmir. However, like the hon. Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice), I weep, because, notwithstanding Mr. Foster: I understand that Interpal has had difficulties assurances from the Ministry, the problems caused by in accessing finance, and I am perfectly happy to meet the machinery of government in Islamabad with the my hon. Friend and the organisation to see what can be adoption of the school were very depressing. Whatever done to resolve them. 785 Oral Answers24 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 786

Mr. Ian Taylor (Esher and Walton) (Con): Part of the Middle East problem in Gaza is the rivalry between Fatah and Hezbollah. Does the Minister have any engagement in 9. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire, North) the discussions to try to keep the peace, and has Israeli (Lab): What his latest assessment is of the humanitarian Prime Minister Netanyahu given any assurances in situation in Gaza; and if he will make a statement. respect of Gaza in his comments about a two-state [281800] solution? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Mr. Foster: I have had no direct discussions with International Development (Mr. Michael Foster): I refer those two parties representing the Palestinian people, my hon. Friend to my previous answer. but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that we welcome Jim Sheridan: My hon. Friend will be aware that the Prime Minister Netanyahu’s recently announced support Israeli blockade is causing extreme problems for people for a two-state solution, which we think will deal with in Gaza. Cement supplies have been held up in the this situation once and for all. blockade, but how can people reconstruct and build their houses if they cannot get those materials? Fairtrade Mr. Foster: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. The 8. Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Devonport) (Lab): United Nations believes that only 25 types of relief out What funding his Department has provided to of the some 4,000 that are needed in Gaza are actually Fairtrade initiatives in the latest period for which getting through the crossings, and construction materials figures are available. [281799] are essential if we are to rebuild Gaza city.

The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Mr. Gareth Thomas): Between 1999 and PRIME MINISTER 2009, the Department for International Development committed just over £3 million-worth of support to Fairtrade, of which £2.6 million has so far been released. The Prime Minister was asked— The majority of current funding is through the global Fairtrade Labelling Organisations International. We Engagements also continue to work in developing countries and internationally to improve countries’ and producers’ Q1. [281805] Patrick Hall (Bedford) (Lab): If he will access to markets and capacity to trade. list his official engagements for Wednesday 24 June. May I also welcome you, Mr. Speaker, to your first Alison Seabeck: I thank my hon. Friend for that Prime Minister’s questions as Speaker of this House? answer. He will know that Plymouth has been at the forefront of promoting Fairtrade, and I am sure we will The Prime Minister (Mr. ): Before I list want to sell the new cosmetic line. However, there are my engagements, I am sure that the whole House will still concerns, including those raised with me by the wish to join me in sending our sincere condolences to ladies of the Inner Wheel in Roborough. Can my hon. the family and friends of Major Sean Birchall, 1st Friend assure me that, in the current global downturn, Battalion Welsh Guards, who was killed in Afghanistan his Department will continue to scrutinise the way in last week. He died serving our country and the people which payments are made and ensure that wages are not of Afghanistan. His death reminds us how difficult it is being cut as markets and trade fall? for men serving in Afghanistan at the moment. He, and others who have lost their lives, will never be forgotten. Mr. Thomas: I know from a previous visit I made to I am sure that the House will wish to send our Plymouth of the importance that Fairtrade is given in sincerest condolences also to the families and friends of the town, including in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I Jason Swindlehurst and Jason Creswell following the am delighted that she continues to be lobbied by supporters tragic news of their death in captivity in . The of Fairtrade in Plymouth for further DFID work on taking of hostages is a cruel and barbaric act and can this issue. I can assure her that we will continue to fund never be justified. I can assure the House that the Fairtrade and to work with the Fairtrade Foundation Government are doing all that we can, and our thoughts and with a series of similar initiatives to promote the and those of everyone in this House will be with the cause of poor producers getting access to our markets. families and friends who wait for news. This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I Does the Minister agree that we should congratulate shall have further such meetings later today. Letchworth garden city, the world’s first garden city, on obtaining Fairtrade status two weeks ago, and that this Patrick Hall: I wish to associate myself with the is a fine initiative that helps to market products and sentiments expressed by my right hon. Friend regarding assists some of the most vulnerable people in the world? our troops, the hostages and their families. One of the key issues raised with me by my constituents Mr. Thomas: I am delighted to agree with the hon. is that of housing, and specifically access to affordable Gentleman, and I am also delighted that his constituents— housing and the need for mortgage finance. My constituents and, no doubt, others nearby—have worked so hard to are aware that despite the urgent need for more house ensure that Letchworth garden city is now a Fairtrade building, Conservatives generally campaign against it, garden city. I look forward to his continuing to raise as well as oppose the measures needed to fix the financial these issues at DFID questions. system—[Interruption.] 787 Oral Answers24 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 788

Mr. Speaker: I think that the Prime Minister has got his party would be cutting capital investment now. He the gist. has got to face up to the fact that he is going to spend less than us in every year. The Prime Minister: We are investing billions of pounds more in new affordable housing. We are helping Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister has been caught more households into home ownership through shared absolutely red-handed. He made a statement to the ownership. We have secured commitments from the House about capital expenditure growing every year major banks that they will invest a large amount of the and the fact is that it is being cut. If he believed in £70 billion extra that they are investing over the course transparency, honesty and truth in public life, he would of the next year in housing. Of course, that would not get up at that Dispatch Box and say, “I’m sorry, I got it be possible if we were to implement a programme of wrong. I gave the wrong figures; here are the right 10 per cent. cuts in our spending. ones.” Now do it.

Mr. (Witney) (Con): The Prime Minister The Prime Minister: I have explained to the House had a bit more than the gist of the question: he had a that money has been brought forward to 2008-09 and prepared answer to it as well. 2009-10. Instead of having expenditure of just £30 billion in 2008-09, it is £38 billion. Instead of expenditure of I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Major less in 2009-10, it will be £44 billion. We took the Sean Birchall from the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, who decision to advance public expenditure to deal with the was killed in Afghanistan, and I very much agree with recession. Let him come clean: he would cut public the Prime Minister about expressing our heartfelt sympathy expenditure this year, next year and every year after. He to the families of Jason Swindlehurst and Jason Creswell is trying to evade his responsibility for wanting 10 per at their loss. The Prime Minister knows that he has our cent. cuts. full support in all the efforts being made to free the remaining hostages in Iraq. Mr. Cameron: In the answer before last, the Prime Last week, the Prime Minister told the House: Minister talked about the year 2007-08. In the last “Capital expenditure will grow until the year of the Olympics.” answer, he talked about the year 2008-09. Those years The Government’s own figures show that that is just not have already happened. He said at the Dispatch Box last the case. Will he take this opportunity to correct what week that capital expenditure would grow between now he told the House last week? and the Olympics. The figures are in the Red Book, on page 226. Capital expenditure will be £44 billion in The Prime Minister: Well obviously yes, in the building 2009, falling to £36 billion, then to £29 billion and then, of the Olympics capital investment will rise very in the year of the Olympics, to £26 billion. There is no substantially. I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that other way to cut it. There is nowhere else he can hide. capital investment is rising from £29 billion to £37.7 billion, He must stand up, explain that he got it wrong and say and then to £44 billion in 2009-10, and that is to help that what he told the House last week was wrong. Why complete the building of the Olympics. Thereafter it not do it for once? will fall as a result of decisions that we have made, but the comparison is between £44 billion of investment The Prime Minister: We brought forward spending to now and—even in real terms—the figure for 1999-2002, deal with the recession. I know that he is against our when he was in charge of advising at the Treasury. We bringing forward the spending, but we brought forward are investing £44 billion: he was investing only £16 billion. current and capital spending to deal with the recession. Let me tell him that spending is £44 billion in the year 2009-10. That is the highest capital expenditure ever in Mr. Cameron: I am afraid that that is just not good our country. It compares with the recession years under enough. Last week the Prime Minister made a very the Tories, when capital spending was only £12 billion clear statement to the House of Commons. He said: or £16 billion. We are taking the action to invest in our “Capital expenditure will grow until the year of the Olympics.”— public services—they would cut our public services [Official Report, 17 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 295.] now. Why does he not admit that there would be 10 per Here are the figures: capital expenditure this year, 2009, cent. cuts in public services under the Conservatives? is £44 billion; next year, 2010, it is £36 billion; in 2011 it is £29 billion; and in the year of the Olympics, 2012, it is Mr. Cameron: Let us first of all be clear about the £26 billion. That is a cut of almost half from £44 billion Prime Minister’s claims about Conservative policy. Even to £26 billion. Will the Prime Minister now apologise, his own colleagues do not believe him. This is the report correct his statement and admit that he is cutting capital that we had from last week’s Cabinet: expenditure? “Darling pointed out that Brown’s Tory cut figures did not represent the”— The Prime Minister: I was just explaining how we had Conservative— brought forward capital investment to last year and this “party’s policy but were merely extrapolations”— year. The figure for capital investment in 2006-07 was £36 billion. That has risen to £38 billion in 2008-09 and [HON.MEMBERS: “Ah!”] It gets more interesting: to £44 billion in 2009-10. That is so that we can advance “Cooper, previously the Treasury minister responsible for public capital expenditure to deal with the downturn. The spending, echoed his concerns”, problem for the right hon. Gentleman is that he wants and: to cut capital investment now. He wants to cut it whereas “According to one source who was present, Brown was visibly we are increasing it. We are increasing it to complete the irritated at the way he had been undermined, and brought the building of the Olympics and other projects, whereas meeting to an early close”. 789 Oral Answers24 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 790

He says that he wants to be a teacher, but it sounds like capacity. As for the terms of reference, I cannot think of he has lost control of the classroom. Last week, at that an inquiry with wider terms of reference. It covers Dispatch Box, the Prime Minister did not talk about nearly eight years, from 2001 to 2009. It covers all issues bringing forward capital expenditure. He said, very that refer to the conflict itself, the causes of the conflict, clearly: and the reconstruction after the conflict. The inquiry “Capital expenditure will grow until the year of the Olympics.”— will be set up on the basis that it will be allowed to have [Official Report, 17 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 295.] all the evidence and materials, whether classified or not, Let me give him one more chance to show that the talk that it needs to look into the matter. The terms of of transparency, truth and honesty means something. reference of this inquiry are very wide indeed. He should find that moral compass, stand up there and tell us that he got it wrong. Mr. (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): I should like to add my own expressions of sympathy and condolence The Prime Minister: I read out the figures to the House. to the family and friends of Major Sean Birchall, who We are spending £38 billion in that year 2008-09—more tragically lost his life in Helmand this week. I of course than the Tories would ever do. We are spending £44 billion also join in the expressions of sympathy and condolence in the coming year—more than the Tories would ever to the families and friends of Jason Swindlehurst and do. We are spending more money on capital investment Jason Creswell. We all hope that the remaining hostages than at any time in our history—[Interruption.] will be released safely as soon as possible. Mr. Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the On the Gurkhas, the Prime Minister was wrong and Prime Minister, but there is simply far too much noise. was forced to back down. On MPs’ expenses, he was The public do not like it, and neither do I. wrong and forced to back down. On the , he was wrong and is now being forced to back down. The The Prime Minister: We have to face up to the fact only gear left for this Government seems to be reverse, that a sensible debate in this country means that the so when will hear from him that he is wrong too on Conservatives are going to cut spending on housing, public spending? education, policing and all the vital public services. The right hon. Gentleman cannot evade the fact that his The Prime Minister: I am not wrong on public spending. figures are lower than any of ours in any year. That is We want to increase public spending. I am not wrong the truth about public spending in our country. on wanting to help people in difficulty in the recession by helping the unemployed and home owners. It is the Mr. Cameron: The entire country will have heard one Liberal party that wants to cut public expenditure, not very important thing—that this Prime Minister cannot the Cons—not the Labour party. [Interruption.] give a straight answer, and that he is not a big enough man to say that he got it wrong. Mr. Speaker: Order. I know it is the third time, but The Prime Minister: His is the party of 10 per cent. perhaps third time will be lucky. We must have some cuts in public expenditure, and the party that would cut order in this House. the vital public services at a time of recession. We have brought forward public expenditure to help people stay Mr. Clegg: The Prime Minister cannot keep avoiding in their homes and get into jobs and to help build the questions. Today, new figures from the EU have schools and hospitals. Those are exactly the public been published that show that we have the largest services that the Conservatives would cut savagely, by underlying deficit anywhere in Europe. Why does he not 10 per cent. That is not going to be allowed to happen. admit that balancing the nation’s books will take big, [Interruption.] difficult, long-term decisions? Nobody is fooled by his trick of dressing up cuts as investment. We are setting Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Fabricant, you must calm out what needs to happen—unlike him, and unlike the yourself. It is not good for your health. I call Paul Leader of the Opposition—on Trident, on baby bonds, Farrelly. and on tax credits for high-income families. There are some ideas, now where are his? Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and may I also welcome you to your new role? Many of us here will welcome the fact that the The Prime Minister: Given that there is no problem Prime Minister has rowed back from holding an inquiry of inflation at the moment in our country, and given into Iraq in private. It would have been a misjudgment that interest rates are low, it is right for us to take action to do so. That said, the Opposition motion and the to help people get into work. It is right for us to take amendment before us this afternoon contain two points action to help 150,000 businesses, as we are doing. It is of difference—whether the terms of reference are discussed right for us to move forward the housing programme and published, and whether the committee should have and our programme of capital investment. These are a wider composition. What can the Prime Minister say the right things to do. I do not think that the Liberals, to the House to address those two points of difference? with their proposals to cut public spending, are doing the right thing at the moment at all. The Prime Minister: I can say that Sir , the chair of the inquiry—and it is an independent Q2. [281806] Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) inquiry—has written to me to make it absolutely clear (Lab): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and that the inquiry will need expert assessors at the highest congratulations on your election. Will my right hon. level including in military, legal, international development Friend the Prime Minister spell out the implications for and reconstruction matters. He has already begun to the public services, pensioners and the less well off of identify people who may be willing to serve in that the 10 per cent. cut proposed by the Opposition? 791 Oral Answers24 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 792

The Prime Minister: Increasingly, the choice within The Prime Minister: First, let me congratulate my our country will become one between us wanting to right hon. Friend on the 27th anniversary of his election preserve our public services and wanting to expand to the House of Commons; he has given great service, them and a Conservative party that is determined to cut particularly in terms of our relations with other countries. them by 10 per cent. Once the public knows that that is In Burma a sham trial of Aung San Suu Kyi is taking the choice, Conservative Members will have to explain place, and it is completely unacceptable not just to us, in every constituency how many police, nurses and but to all members of the international community. At teachers are going to be cut as a result of their restrictions the last meeting of the European Council, we sent out a on spending. powerful message that unless action is taken in Burma to free Aung San Suu Kyi, we will be prepared to take James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend, East) (Con): further sanctions against the regime. I have also talked Can the Prime Minister confirm whether he has had to the UN Secretary-General and encouraged him to any correspondence, e-mail, telephone calls or texts visit Burma—Mr. Gambari, his representative, is there from Damian McBride since the day he resigned, and at the moment. I hope that the Secretary-General will just to clear up the confusion that there seems to be visit Burma to send a message to the regime as soon as around this issue, will he write to the Parliamentary possible. Standards Authority confirming the answer to this question? Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): In May The Prime Minister: Theanswerisno,butisitnot 1997, there were 1,826 people unemployed in amazing when we are discussing Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan Wellingborough; at the end of last month, that figure and other major issues that a Back Bencher can reduce had risen to 3,366—an increase of 84 per cent. Whose himself to re-asking a question that was asked last fault is that: is it (a) the last Conservative Government; week? (b) the previous US President; or (c) the Prime Minister who claimed he had ended boom and bust? Q3. [281808] Dr. Ashok Kumar (Middlesbrough, South and East Cleveland) (Lab): Has my right hon. Friend The Prime Minister: The figures are all the more seen my early-day motion 1552 regarding steel making reason to support our policies to get people back to on Teesside? What help and support is he willing to work. Were it not for the policies we are adopting, give so that we can keep the Redcar steel complex open 500,000 more people would be out of work—that is and protect 22,000 direct and indirect jobs as well as a what official estimates say. The hon. Gentleman should strong manufacturing base? be supporting the public expenditure we are engaged in to help people get back into work. The Prime Minister: I have talked to the company and also met the trades unions, as has the Business Q5. [281810] Martin Salter (Reading, West) (Lab): Secretary. The future of steel making in this region is Mr. Speaker, it gives me particular pleasure to welcome absolutely crucial, so we are trying to do everything we you to the Chair as our new reforming Speaker. May I can to make that happen. Clearly, there is a dispute say how much I endorse the wise words of the right between Tata and the partners involved in the consortium hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George that has now withdrawn its order for steel making in the Young), who called for the whole House now to get area. We want to support a reconciliation between the behind you? That should be the whole House. two groups, which is what we are trying to do. In the The Prime Minister deserves great credit for bringing meantime, One North East is trying to help people in forward proposals to establish the Parliamentary Standards search of jobs. Bill and to set up a Select Committee on reform of the House of Commons, but may I draw his attention to the Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): unnecessarily tight terms of reference on today’s Order The Prime Minister’s insult to the Law and Justice party Paper, and to the cross-party amendment in my name of Poland in his European statement yesterday is a and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock great insult to the President of Poland, who is a member Chase (Dr. Wright)? Surely, it cannot be right for the of that party and to the Polish people who elected that Committee to be constrained to discuss only non- party into office. No matter what he may think of the governmental business. Law and Justice party, he must understand that as Prime Minister of the he has a duty to implement basic diplomatic procedures. The Prime Minister: We have proposed measures to modernise the House of Commons, in particular the election of Select Committee Chairs, the scheduling of The Prime Minister: I have very good relationships non-Government business and the raising of public with the person the hon. Gentleman is talking about. issues for debate. All those other matters can be considered As for the Polish Law and Justice party, the Conservatives in due course, and the Leader of the House will lead a should look at the policies of the parties they are having debate on them. dealings with.

Q4. [281809] Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Mr. Speaker, the university and Bellshill) (Lab): Can the Prime Minister tell the of Essex is proud of you. House of his reaction to recent events in Burma? Does Earlier this month, the Conservatives were humiliated he agree that the imprisonment, illegal as it is, of in the local elections in Colchester. Will the Prime pro-democracy campaigners and the shameful, farcical Minister discuss with his Secretary of State for Children, and sham trial of Aung San Suu Kyi does nothing for Schools and Families why Essex county council is ignoring Burma’s standing in the international community? what the Secretary of State promised in the House in 793 Oral Answers24 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 794

May last year, and is proceeding to close two secondary an extra £300 million in the Budget for further education schools, against the democratic wish of the people of colleges. I am sure that the Minister will be happy to my constituency? meet him.

The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, Q9.[281814]Mr.PhilWillis(HarrogateandKnaresborough) investment in schools is rising, as is investment in new (LD): May I say to the Prime Minister that this year’s school buildings generally. The hon. Gentleman has 10 per cent. increase in applications to higher education specific questions he wishes to address to the Secretary is a massive cause for celebration? The fact that the of State for Children, Schools and Families, and I hope major increases are particularly among young black that he will be able to meet my right hon. Friend soon. males, students over 40 and people in lower socio- economic groups is a double cause for celebration. Will Q6. [281811] (Brent, North) (Lab): This the Prime Minister therefore say why the planned morning, Superintendent Simon Corkill from Wembley 15,000 extra higher education places were cut to 10,000 police station telephoned me—[Interruption.]—to say last year and are now being cut to 3,000? Is it not better that there had been a drop in gun crime of 45 per cent., to invest in people in higher education than to invest in a drop in knife crime of 19 per cent. and a drop in them on the dole queues? youth offending of 19 per cent. in the past year. I know The Prime Minister: We want more people to be able the Prime Minister will want to congratulate Wembley to go to university. If there are more applications this police force on those statistics, but will he join me in year, we must look at that very carefully. I shall look at asking for a 10 per cent. cut next year? I mean, of what the hon. Gentleman says about the numbers, and I course, a further cut in the statistics. know that the Business Secretary is looking at what can be done. We want to give this year’s school leavers a The Prime Minister: Since 1997, the investment we guarantee that they will also have opportunities, and have made in neighbourhood policing and in policing the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families generally has led to a reduction in crime. As a result of is taking action to ensure that opportunities are available that investment, people can feel safer in their homes, to every school leaver this summer. but it is equally important that we maintain investment in policing—a 10 per cent. cut in policing budgets Q10. [281815] Linda Gilroy (Plymouth, Sutton) (Lab/ would be totally disastrous for police forces and Co-op): The Prime Minister will be aware of the pain communities. caused by very high water bills to my constituents in the far south-west, especially those on low and modest Q7. [281812] Mr. Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): incomes. We eagerly look forward to the publication of One in four people will suffer at some point in their life the interim findings of the Walker review on water from a mental health problem, and there is a great deal metering and charging. Will the Prime Minister meet of stigma about that. Will the Prime Minister take me and a group of colleagues who have been working some advice from , whose advice on finding solutions for many years to see how far the seemed to work very well for his predecessor? When review will be able to help to address the problems? giving evidence to the Speaker’s Conference on improving diversity, Mr. Campbell suggested that we The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has campaigned get rid of the provision in the Mental Health Act 1983 on water charges in her region for many years. I believe that Members of Parliament who are sectioned for a that the interim report is scheduled for publication next mental health problem lose their seat. Will the Prime week, with a final report expected in the autumn. We Minister take steps on that measure and end stigma will provide a full response following the publication of against people with mental health problems? the final report and I will be happy to meet my hon. Friend to talk about it. The Prime Minister: Mental health is a serious problem and we should look at it with great care before we make Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): A considerable any decisions, but of course I will look at what the hon. number of my constituents are Equitable Life victims Gentleman says. I think he will understand that it needs and the quality of the retirement that they paid for has the greatest of care. been crippled. The Government’s response to the two ombudsman’s reports added insult to that injury. Will Q8. [281813] Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) the Prime Minister look again at the delays in paying (Lab/Co-op): Hopwood Hall college in my constituency compensation and the partiality of the Government’s delivers vocational programmes to learners throughout compensation scheme? Heywood, Middleton and Rochdale—all areas of high The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, deprivation. The college capital programme has had to the ombudsman made certain recommendations, which be put on the back burner because of the funding crisis we are looking at. We have set up a separate inquiry to at the Learning and Skills Council. Will the Prime look at the implication of what was said and we will Minister have a look at the specific problem for me, and report in due course. perhaps designate the appropriate Minister to meet the college principal, the local authority and me to see if we Q11. [281816] Mr. (Bolton, North-East) can get ourselves out of this mess? (Lab): Despite all the point scoring on cuts in public expenditure, will my right hon. Friend assure me that The Prime Minister: The Learning and Skills Council no money will be cut from protecting our armed forces has written to the principals of all colleges about capital on active service? Will he say that, in any circumstances, investment for the future. It hopes to announce projects the priority will be to spend whatever money is available to go through to the next stage of the process as soon as on the front line, unlike the situation under the Tories, possible. As my hon. Friend will know, we made available who made redundancies while— 795 Oral Answers24 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 796

Mr. Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister does not and Freedom party, which honours veterans have to concern himself with Opposition policy. of the Waffen-SS, or does he believe that that should be left to the British National party? The Prime Minister: We have shown our commitment to our armed forces by increasing expenditure on them The Prime Minister: Is it not remarkable that the every year. We have made extra money available for all Conservatives have formed an alliance in Europe that the additional responsibilities that they have had to excludes the German Christian Democrats, excludes the discharge in Iraq and Afghanistan. We want a spending French party of President Sarkozy, excludes the Italian path for the armed forces that is completely consistent party of Prime Minister Berlusconi—[Interruption.] with their responsibilities. It would not make sense— —excludes all reputable political parties in Europe— regardless of need and what has happened to the [Interruption.] economy—to announce 10 per cent. cuts in the defence Mr. Speaker: Order. budget now. The Prime Minister: The Conservatives are now isolated Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Will the Prime on the fringes of Europe. Minister tell the House whether he has received advice Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): Would the from the Chief of the Defence Staff calling for sustained Prime Minister agree with me that both the Tamil and and substantial reinforcement for our hard-pressed armed Sinhalese people of Sri Lanka deserve an investigation forces in Afghanistan? into alleged war crimes committed during the civil war in Sri Lanka? Given the cowardly decision by the United The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentleman was here Nations Human Rights Council to resist any such inquiry, yesterday, he would know that I answered exactly that what steps can he take to make sure that the issue is not question. I said that we had raised the number of forces abandoned and forgotten? in Afghanistan for the period of the election campaign from 8,100 to 9,000. For that period, which takes us The Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady may know, I right through to the autumn, we are meeting additional have spoken to the President of Sri Lanka, and I have responsibilities to ensure that the democracy of Afghanistan urged him to ensure reconciliation with the Tamil is maintained and that elections can happen with greater community. It is very important, after the events that we security and safety. Of course, we maintain our ongoing have seen happen, that those people who have been campaign against the Afghanistan Taliban. displaced are given urgent humanitarian help, that the regime itself recognises that it has to make peace with Q12. [281817] Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): Does my the Tamil members of the community, and that action right hon. Friend believe that it is the role of mainstream is taken as quickly as possible for that purpose. What we UK political parties to associate with Latvia’s For need is not violence in Sri Lanka but reconciliation. 797 24 JUNE 2009 798

Speaker’s Statement Points of Order

12.31 pm 12.32 pm Mr. Speaker: Just before we move on to the main Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): On a point of business, I want to make a brief statement of just three order, Mr. Speaker. This is really further to your statement, points. First, as I said on Monday, when Ministers have and particularly the first point in it. It was remarkable key policy statements to make, the House must be the to read in today that first to hear them, and they should not be released “Britain is to appoint its first national cyber security chief to beforehand. Secondly, in statements, I ask the Front protect the country from terrorist computer hackers and electronic Benchers to stick to their allotted times. I also ask that espionage, Gordon Brown will announce tomorrow. the Back-Bench Members taking part each confine The Prime Minister’s move comes amid fears that the computer themselves to one, brief supplementary question. In the systems of government and business are vulnerable to online same vein, I hope that Ministers’ replies will be kept to a attack from hostile countries and terrorist organisations.” reasonable length. Finally, I always expect that those A civil servant is then named: speaking in this Chamber will be heard, so that an “Neil Thompson, a senior civil servant, will be charged with atmosphere of calm, reasoned debate is maintained. protecting the national computer network.” Cyber-security is a very important issue, and the cyber-threat to the United Kingdom is extremely severe. I understand that there are no plans for an oral statement to this House tomorrow, quite apart from the fact that there is no record that there will be any written or oral statements to the House today on the issue. Would it be as well for the Government to prepare an oral statement of some kind for tomorrow?

Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has just said, which seems to underline the merit of my having made the statement that I did. On the specifics of the question, of which I did not have any advance notice, I can only say to him and to the House that I will certainly look into the matter.

Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Does your first ruling extend to Ministers commenting on the publication of Bills, and to cases in which no Member of this House has had an opportunity to see a Bill before they hear the relevant Secretary of State telling the world what is in it on the “Today” programme?

Mr. Speaker: Certainly, Ministers ought to make key statements to the House before they are made elsewhere. I should have thought that that was pretty clear. I note that the Leader of the House and other senior Ministers are present on the Treasury Bench. I say to the hon. Gentleman: let us see how it goes, but I hope that the thrust of what I have said is pretty clear.

Dr. Evan Harris (Oxford, West and Abingdon) (LD): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It relates to a matter about which I wrote to you this morning. Tomorrow we are debating a motion to set up a Select Committee to make recommendations about how the House can better hold the Government to account through procedural changes. One of the main issues at stake is the way in which the House is able to scrutinise public Bills on Report, which has been appalling, and which many senior Members on both sides of the House—including yourself, sir, while you held such public opinions as a Back Bencher—agree has not been satisfactory. We assumed that the Wright Committee would be able to consider that, but its terms of reference say only that it will be able to look at procedures relating to non- Government business. To help with how we settle this, could you clarify whether you would agree that the way in which the House scrutinises Bills, even those introduced 799 Points of Order 24 JUNE 2009 800 [Dr. Evan Harris] Opposition Day by the Government, is the very essence of House business, because it is the job of the House to scrutinise legislation? [14TH ALLOTTED DAY] It is not the job of the Government to scrutinise legislation. Iraq Inquiry Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. Unfortunately, I do not have the Mr. Speaker: I advise the House that I have selected advantage of having seen his letter, though I do not the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. doubt that it has been sent to me. Of course, he has tabled an amendment, of which I am aware and with which other Members of the House will be familiar. 12.37 pm Mr. William Hague (Richmond, Yorks) (Con): I beg Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): On a point of order, to move, Mr. Speaker. You will be aware that following the recent That this House, while welcoming the announcement by the Government reshuffle, an increasing number of Ministers Government of an Inquiry into the war in Iraq, believes that the of the Crown find themselves in the other place, rather proceedings of the Committee of Inquiry should whenever possible than in this place, including two Secretaries of State. be held in public and that the membership of the Committee Given your welcome determination to introduce reform should be wider and more diverse than the Government has in the House, what consideration will you give to holding proposed, and calls on the Government to revise its proposals for those Ministers and particularly Secretaries of State the Inquiry to meet these and other objections raised by hon. Members and to submit proposed terms of reference for it to the accountable to this House, perhaps by their giving House on a substantive motion for full debate and scrutiny. statements in this House? On a matter related to the motion, but before discussing Mr. Speaker: That would certainly require a change it, may I express again the condolences of the Opposition in the rules of the House, but it is something that the to the families and friends of the two British hostages in Procedure Committee might wish to consider, and I Iraq, Jason Swindlehurst and Jason Creswell, whose have just a sense that the hon. Gentleman will encourage remains were returned to the care of this country at the the Committee to do just that. weekend. Their tragic deaths are a reminder that the lives of many British citizens are still painfully bound up with developments in Iraq, and that there are still three families waiting anxiously for news. This is the fourth debate that I have opened on the subject during this Parliament, and when I heard that the Prime Minister was set to announce the long awaited and much delayed inquiry, I honestly did not expect to have to do so again. This debate is different from the previous ones, in that hitherto we have been pressing on the Government the need to establish an inquiry; our debate today is in direct consequence of the Government’s decision, welcome in itself and in principle, to hold an inquiry. The need for the debate has arisen from the fact that nine days ago the Prime Minister stood here and announced proposals for the Iraq inquiry which betrayed both poor advance preparation and inadequate consultation, and which as a result received severe and sincere criticism from all quarters of the House—criticism that was reflected in the reaction of people throughout the country. There was genuine disappointment that the Prime Minister had produced proposals for such a secretive, behind- closed-doors inquiry, despite the fact that both of the main Opposition parties had made representations to the Government that the proceedings of the inquiry should be much more open to public view, and it was accentuated by the fact that only the previous week the Prime Minister had talked of improving accountability and transparency. Hon. Members on the Government Benches were among those who said that they were extremely disappointed that the inquiry would be limited in its remit or that they had hoped for a new politics of openness. The points were made that the membership was too restricted, quite apart from the timing being so utterly cynical and politically motivated, and that the response of the Prime Minister to important questions such as whether evidence would be given to the inquiry 801 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 802 on oath was, to say the least, unsure. It was the hon. It should not have been necessary to table the motion in Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), who is in his order to produce that result, but it was and so be it. It is place, who put it to the Prime Minister, politely on that of course a welcome development, but, given the occasion, that he should regard his statement as uncertainty— “the beginning of a short process of consultation, so that he can carry the whole House with him”—[Official Report, 15 June 2009; Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Will the right hon. Vol. 494, c. 37.] Gentleman give way? Since then, the Government have engaged in a series of Mr. Hague: No, I shall not give way at the moment, climbdowns—a U-turn that was executed in stages as because I am just explaining why we have moved the painful to watch as those of a learner driver doing a motion. six-point turn having started off the wrong way down a motorway. The Government have performed that U-turn Given the uncertainty that preceded that concession, by getting the inquiry chairman himself, Sir John Chilcot, the need for the Government in the form of the Foreign to announce the changes that we have all demanded, so Secretary to make it clear that the Government’s position that no Minister has had to return to the House and has changed; the need for Ministers also to make it admit that the Government were in the wrong. Indeed, clear, in the light of weekend speculation, that they see Sir John is now busily engaged in the very process of no problem in this new approach to the inquiry—of consultation with Opposition parties and others which evidence being given in public wherever possible—applying a Prime Minister who was doing his job properly would to the evidence to be given by the former Prime Minister, have carried out beforehand. ; and, given the number of other inconsistencies and clearly inaccurate statements— Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that one reason why the public Clive Efford: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? and right hon. and hon. Members are so sceptical about Mr. Hague: I have explained when I shall give way, the chances of openness and transparency is the very and I am in the middle of an admittedly long sentence. attitude that he has outlined, whereby the Government Given the number of other inconsistencies and clearly have to be dragged kicking and screaming, unwilling to inaccurate statements produced by Ministers during the achieve such transparency from the outset? It suggests process of establishing the inquiry, combined with a that they will do the very minimum necessary to get the continuing refusal to put the terms of reference of the inquiry through, rather than as much as possible to inquiry to the House on a substantive motion, it is ensure that it is genuinely transparent and genuinely clearly necessary for the House to have a more detailed independent. debate for the will of Parliament to be clear, and this Mr. Hague: The hon. Gentleman is quite right, because motion provides the vehicle for those things to happen. such a beginning to the processes of the inquiry damages [HON.MEMBERS: “Full stop!”] its credibility in the eyes of the public and makes it all Now, first in the queue for an intervention was the the more important that that damage be now put right. hon. Member for Stockton, South (Ms Taylor). Mr. (Devizes) (Con): My right hon. Ms Taylor: I am very grateful to the right hon. Friend referred to the politically cynical timing of the Gentleman, who is speaking to the House with considerable inquiry. Is he aware that, on 23 October 2003, on a gusto this afternoon. I totally appreciate that; it is time motion that I proposed from that Dispatch Box calling that we all said as we think. However, is he suggesting to for a public inquiry, one reason given for not acceding the House that, in any way, shape or form, he has to it by the present Justice Secretary, who was then the evidence that the Government will not co-operate fully , was that it could not report before and factually with the inquiry? We need to hear from the general election? the right hon. Gentleman. Mr. Hague: Yes, I am aware that my right hon. and Mr. Hague: I am glad that the hon. Lady appreciates learned Friend proposed an inquiry and has, therefore, the gusto, although if she has been listening to my been proposing one for six years now. That tells us speech she will know that I have not said anything of something about the extent of the delay and the the kind. My contention is that, although the Government Government’s ability to pluck out any convenient reason set out to try to keep the inquiry behind closed doors for changing the timing—even from one Parliament to and Sir John Chilcot’s statement may now have rectified another. However, the uncertainty and confusion that that, there are other serious deficiencies in the arrangements all that has produced is the reason why we are proceeding for the inquiry, and I am about to turn to them. First, with today’s motion and debate. however, I give way to the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford). Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Clive Efford: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman; the people, on both sides of the House, who were Mr. Hague: Let me just finish this point, and then I responsible for taking us into the war should not be able shall certainly give way to the hon. Lady. to hide behind the cloak of secrecy when they give In one important sense, we have already achieved the evidence to the inquiry. However, will he explain how central objective of tabling the motion for debate, which Sir John Chilcot’s powers to expand the breadth of is that it has now been announced, albeit by Sir John what is held in public have changed since the announcement Chilcot and not by Ministers, that last week? If what the right hon. Gentleman is putting “it will be essential to hold as much of the proceedings of the forward is true, the Government must at some time have inquiry as possible in public, consistent with the need to protect altered the powers given to Sir John Chilcot to set up national security”. the inquiry that he wants to set up. 803 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 804

Mr. Hague: That will be the subject of some of my In contrast, on this occasion, the Prime Minister speech and perhaps some of the Foreign Secretary’s. initiated only limited consultation with Opposition The issue is not so much that the Government have parties—and then ignored most of the points that we altered Sir John Chilcot’s powers; it is that they have made. Ministers therefore have no excuse for thinking now placed on him the burden of coming up with the that what they announced had the agreement of the proceedings and rules for the inquiry—including how Opposition. Asked last Tuesday on the BBC “Today” much of it is to be heard in public. If I continue with my programme whether the Opposition had agreed that the speech for a little, there will be an answer to the hon. membership of the committee of inquiry was right, the Gentleman’s point. Foreign Secretary replied: The Government’s basic defence of their inquiry “Yes but my understanding is…I was in Brussels yesterday, but proposals is that many of us asked for a Franks-style the err…” inquiry and that that is what they consider they have That was the transcript, but he did say yes. I hope that produced. In fact, it is necessary to have only the most he will acknowledge today that in claiming that the cursory acquaintance with the Franks inquiry to know Opposition had agreed the membership of the inquiry, that several of its attributes, which were important in he was not making an accurate statement. making its processes and findings acceptable to Parliament Let me be clear about this. On the Friday afternoon, and the public, were completely missing from the the Conservative party was given the inquiry proposals Government’s proposals and how they went about them. to be made on the Monday. That gave no time for any Meanwhile, the one attribute of the Franks inquiry that face-to-face meetings between Opposition leaders and almost everyone outside the Government regarded as Ministers, or even among ourselves. Nevertheless, we no longer appropriate—its having been conducted behind made several criticisms of the inquiry proposals. Only closed doors—was the very one that the Government one of them was taken fully on board by the Government. chose to continue with. I shall come to the point about They had intended that the inquiry should be able to openness or secrecy in a moment. look back no further than late 2002, but they accepted our suggestion that the date should be put back to 2001, Mr. Oliver Heald (North-East Hertfordshire) (Con): bringing in the period following the 9/11 attacks. Does my right hon. Friend agree that another concern However, we also argued, as I believe did others, that is that only recently the Government proposed that the inquiry sessions should be much more open, and inquests could be held privately, without being open to indeed open whenever possible—the exact formulation the public gaze? Those proposals were later changed, that the Prime Minister chose to ignore but has belatedly but suspicions were raised about what the Government been constrained to accept. We also called for an interim were up to. report from the inquiry in early 2010, given the unnecessary delay in its establishment and the Government’s transparent Mr. Hague: My hon. Friend makes a related point, intention to delay the publication of findings until after although not one immediately relevant to the motion. It the last possible date for a general election—a manoeuvre was a good point, but I will carry on explaining the that itself reduces public confidence in the inquiry comparison with the Franks inquiry. It is possible for process. An interim or earlier report would help to remedy the House to understand how and why the Government that. That point, too, was ignored by the Government. went wrong on the issue only if it is aware of how the Government went about the consultation in advance of : Although I believe that the openness of last Monday’s announcement, and how that contrasts the inquiry has already been acceded to, the important with the consultation that followed the point is the one that the Public Administration Committee and preceded the Franks inquiry. has raised. That is the suggestion of having a two-tier inquiry, one to deal with the general issue for a long Paul Flynn (Newport, West) (Lab): Will the right period and one to concentrate, in a short report produced hon. Gentleman give way? in perhaps a matter of six months, on Britain’s involvement. The key issue is the torment of the families of the Mr. Hague: Not at the moment, because a lot of fallen—did their loved ones die in vain? Was Britain Members will wish to speak. deceived in going into the war? That can be reported on very rapidly. The Franks inquiry was characterised by wide and lengthy consultation by the Government of the time with the Opposition parties. That led to broad agreement Mr. Hague: We all hope that all those things will be on the nature, scope and composition of the inquiry in encompassed in one inquiry, and I am sure that it is advance of its announcement. In fact, in the debate on better to examine them in the round. the Franks inquiry, , the then shadow Foreign Secretary, went out of his way to praise Baroness Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): I was one Thatcher, the then Prime Minister—something that we of those many Labour Members who urged last week would all admit he has hardly ever done in his life. that the inquiry should be as public as possible. That is During that debate on 8 July 1982, Denis Healey said: right and proper. “I must pay tribute on behalf of the other parties in the House I believe that I spoke after the right hon. Gentleman to the fact that she consulted all of us about the procedures, the in the debate just before we went into war. He was terms and the composition of the inquiry. She made substantial speaking from the Back Benches. I stand by my vote at changes to her original intentions.”—[Official Report, 8 July 1982; that time, on the basis that the chief weapons inspector Vol. 27, c. 503.] had not said that he was satisfied that all the weapons of He credited that attitude with producing the widespread mass destruction had been destroyed. On that basis, I support that the final proposals received. voted for war. Does he stand by his vote? 805 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 806

Mr. Hague: I do stand by my vote and my speech on The proposals that the Government came up with that occasion. No doubt when the inquiry reports, we were not the result of proper consultation. Nor have will all have time to reflect on who was right and who they had it in mind to subject them to democratic was wrong. That is one of the reasons for having an accountability and consultation after the announcement, inquiry. for they have provided no opportunity to debate the I was running through the points that the Opposition inquiry’s terms of reference in the House, as happened made over the weekend of consultation before the in Government time after the announcement of the announcement. We said that the membership of the Franks inquiry—another point that we put to the inquiry, while encompassing people whom we had no Government that was ignored, and another omission call to criticise, seemed to us too narrow. We said in that the motion seeks to address. particular that some experience of ministerial office The Foreign Secretary may wish to explain to the was desirable. The following Monday, my right hon. House what detailed terms of reference the committee Friend the Leader of the Opposition also made the of inquiry will be given, when it will be given them and point that military experience was desirable. whether the Government will respond to the widespread We further pointed out that the inquiry, as proposed demand for those terms of reference to be approved on by the Government, would consist of four nominees, a substantive motion in this House. If they are not to be none of whom was a woman. The Government went a approved in this House, just who are they going to be small way to meeting part of the objection by adding approved by? Is it not unfair to Sir John Chilcot to Baroness Prashar to the inquiry membership. I hope expect him to clarify all the procedures and rules of the that the Foreign Secretary will acknowledge that his inquiry, leaving him open to subsequent criticism, rather statement on the “Today” programme that the five than the Government being clear about what they want people were approached before the Cabinet Secretary and winning the approval of the House? went to talk to the Opposition parties was inaccurate. The fifth, Baroness Prashar, was added only when it Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): On that very was pointed out to Ministers that they had proposed an point, the Government amendment asks the chairman inquiry too narrow in its membership. of the inquiry, Chilcot, to consult party leaders on In many ways, I am sorry to make these points to the “the scope for taking evidence under oath.” Foreign Secretary, because he is normally perfectly good Surely everyone who gives evidence to the inquiry must at consultation with the Opposition. Clearly he was give it under oath? misinformed and not properly briefed on what was happening by a that does not share his Mr. Hague: Sir John Chilcot has been placed in a willingness to consult on and agree matters with the difficult position by the ill-prepared announcement that Opposition. Let us hope that that emboldens him when was made last week. Clearly the Government had not he comes to his next opportunity to depose the Prime anticipated the issue of taking evidence under oath, and Minister, which normally recurs about every 12 weeks. they are now trying to put it right by asking Sir John to The upshot was that the consultation with the Opposition come up with some formulation that encompasses that. was inadequate and unnecessarily short. Nor did the It would be useful to know whether the Foreign Secretary Prime Minister even bother to consult the armed forces thinks that a solution has been arrived at, and I hope about how an inquiry into this country’s largest military that he will address that point. endeavour since world war two should be conducted. The Chief of the General Staff, Sir , Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington and Chelsea) (Con): stated last week that he was not privy to the discussions Does my right hon. Friend agree that the most outstanding about how the inquiry would be conducted. continuing defect in the Government’s proposals was shown in the Prime Minister’s statement last week that John Barrett (Edinburgh, West) (LD): Does the right the inquiry that he has established, unlike the Franks hon. Gentleman agree that the changes that he suggests inquiry, will not be able to apportion blame even if it should take place because the public have lost confidence believes it appropriate? in the House for another reason, and that it is absolutely My right hon. Friend said in his speech on 25 March vital to regain their confidence? Unless the changes that that if the inquiry had not completed its proceedings by he has outlined are taken on board, the public will not the time a Conservative Government came into office, believe that the outcome of the inquiry is fair and just. they would feel free to alter its terms of reference. Can he tell the House that if the Prime Minister and the Mr. Hague: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the Government continue to refuse to allow the committee mess and chaos that I am describing, which accompanied to apportion blame at the end of the inquiry if it so the launch of the inquiry, underlines the need to take on wishes, and the inquiry has not been completed when a board the points that Members throughout the House Conservative Government come into office, they will have been making, to give the inquiry proper public give it such powers? credibility and support. At the same time as everything I have described was Mr. Hague: Yes, we certainly reserve the right to do happening, ample consideration was given to the concerns that if the Government change and a committee of of the former Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, who reportedly inquiry is proceeding in a way that we believe to be feared that an open inquiry would become a show trial. inadequate and without adequate terms of reference. Time was found also to consult Mr. Alastair Campbell; My right hon. and learned Friend makes an important he has confirmed that he was consulted on the specific point, and I hope that the Foreign Secretary will explain point of whether the inquiry should be public or private. whether the inquiry’s terms of reference will include the Their advice was taken, at least initially. Prime Minister’s injunction to it last week that it should 807 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 808

[Mr. Hague] which our motion calls. However, it also calls for the committee of inquiry to have a “wider and more diverse” not set out to apportion blame. Although we absolutely membership, which the Government have so far failed agree that learning lessons for the future is the primary to bring about or, indeed, tried to bring about. purpose of the inquiry, a positive prohibition on its apportioning blame seems to us an unnatural and Dr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East) (Lab) rose— unnecessary restriction on any normal discussion of what happened in the past. The attempt to prevent the Mr. Hague: I might give way to the right hon. Gentleman inquiry from apportioning any blame is again in sharp later, but I know that a lot of Members wish to speak. contrast to the Franks inquiry, and it is further evidence The committee’s members are distinguished historians, that Ministers have not set out to set up a Franks-style commentators and public servants. We have no objection inquiry at all. to any of them as individuals, but the composition overall still leaves a lot to be desired. Not a single Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab) rose— member has high-level military or governmental experience. There are no former chiefs of staff and no one with Mr. Hague: I think that I had better make a bit of experience of being in a Cabinet. Those are considerable progress. omissions, given that much of the inquiry’s scope will either be military in nature or concern the decision-making Sir (North-East Fife) (LD): Will processes at the highest level of Government. the right hon. Gentleman give way? Whatever the case against having such members, however, it cannot possibly be the one advanced by the Mr. Hague: I will end up having to give way to both Prime Minister in the House last week, which was Members; I give way to the right hon. and learned wholly specious, and easily demonstrably so. His justification Gentleman. was that, rather than have people with political or military experience, Sir Menzies Campbell: I am very grateful to the right “We would do better in these circumstances to draw on the hon. Gentleman, if I am still allowed to call him that. professional and expert advice of people who have not been Before he leaves the question of evidence on oath, does involved in commenting on this issue over the last few years.”—[Official he understand that Sir John does not have the power to Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 27.] put witnesses on oath? He might have that power if this In making that remark, he revealed either that he was were an inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005, or if the trying to brush off the objections in this House with an House conferred it upon him. That is all the more argument that he knew to be bogus, or that he knew reason for the procedures to be within the ownership of astonishingly little about the people whom he had just the House of Commons, not that of the Prime Minister. appointed to the inquiry. Of the four members of the inquiry who were originally Mr. Hague: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is proposed by the Government, has absolutely right. That is why the terms of reference written that should be brought to the House. Then it would be open to any of us to move amendments to them, in order to “The is rightly criticised for its flimsy rationale and incompetence of the occupation”, clarify the many points such as the one that he has just made. Out of a sense of equality, I now give way to the and has referred at other times to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob “inept conduct of the Iraq war, from pre-war diplomacy to Marris). post-war reconstruction”. , a great historian, wrote in 2004 that Rob Marris: The right hon. Gentleman is generous as George W. Bush and Tony Blair ever. Can he give an indication of what he thinks the “may well, with the passage of time and the opening of the inquiry’s terms of reference ought to be? archives, join the ranks of Roosevelt and Churchill.” Sir has not only commented on the war Mr. Hague: Yes. I have described what the terms of but was involved in the efforts to secure a second UN reference should be several times in debates over the Security Council resolution, recalling that past three years. However, now that we have reached the “Like other British ambassadors, I received what is now known point of the inquiry being set up, those terms of reference as the ‘Dodgy Dossier’”, need to set out more of the procedures and rules, so that Sir John Chilcot is not placed in the unfortunate position and referring to of having to determine them all by himself. “a massive failure of British intelligence,” The Franks inquiry was entirely different from what and the Government have proposed. As Atkins, “obviously a failure of political intelligence.” one of the Ministers who resigned over the Falklands Sir John Chilcot, the chairman of the inquiry, was a war, explained in the debate on the Franks inquiry: member of the Butler inquiry into the use of intelligence “The inquiry may or may not apportion blame. That is for it in the run-up to the war and has therefore helped to alone to decide.”—[Official Report, 8 July 1982; Vol. 27, c. 489.] produce a whole report on one aspect of the war, let If Ministers really want a Franks-style inquiry, let them alone comment on it. All those people have commented be absolutely clear that the members of the committee on the war, and in some cases liberally so. In the light of will have the same freedom to give their views. A debate that, how the Prime Minister came to think that none of on the terms of reference—something to which many the people appointed to the inquiry had commented on hon. Members have referred—is one of the actions for the Iraq war defies imagination. It is quite hard to think 809 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 810 how he could stand up in this House and justify the The Prime Minister went on to assert that a more exclusion of others on the basis of an argument so open inquiry would be bad for the armed forces. No obviously and totally inaccurate in its very foundations. sooner had he said that than he was contradicted by a When the Foreign Secretary comes to reply, perhaps mass of military figures. The Chief of the Defence he will explain the answer to these questions. First, is it Staff, General Sir Richard Dannatt, said that a part still the Government’s considered view that it is not public, part private inquiry was an option necessary to have on the inquiry anyone with substantial “that has a lot of merit to it.” military, governmental or, indeed, legal experience? General Sir Mike Jackson, head of the Army during the Secondly, if that is still their view, what is the real reason Iraq invasion, said: for that view, given that no credence whatever can be “I would have no problem at all in giving my evidence in attached to the reason given last week by the Prime public…The main problem with a secret inquiry…is that people Minister? Thirdly, as Sir John Chilcot has tried to deal would think there is something to hide.” with part of the problem by having a military assessor Air Marshal Sir John Walker, the former head of defence attached to the inquiry, what possible reason is there intelligence said: not to have that military assessor as a full member of “There is one reason that the inquiry is being heard in private the inquiry? Fourthly, has the Foreign Secretary or and that is to protect past and present members of this Government. anyone else asked Sir John Chilcot whether he would There are 179 reasons why the military want the truth to be out.” like the expertise that I have described among the In this war of words, I think that the generals represented inquiry’s membership, and if not, why not? the Government’s true motives as clearly as the Government It must be clear by now that the inquiry that Ministers misrepresented theirs. Nevertheless, armed with those announced was not remotely modelled on the Franks completely inaccurate assertions about the views of the inquiry—not in its membership, not in its terms of Opposition and the military, the Prime Minister was reference, not in the House’s ability to approve the insistent at the beginning of last week that the whole terms of reference and not in the consultation process inquiry would be held in private. That was on Monday. that preceded it. The Government decided to adopt the On Tuesday, we tabled the motion now before the one aspect of the Franks inquiry that suited them—that House, and many Government Members indicated that it was held in secret—and say that they had announced they agreed with it. On Wednesday, the Prime Minister something like the Franks inquiry. suddenly wrote to Sir John Chilcot asking that The Prime Minister made much of that last week, “those appearing before the inquiry do so with the greatest saying that I had asked for a Franks-style inquiry, possible candour and openness” which he said and asking him to explain how the inquiry would be “is what we have got.” conducted. By Monday of this week, Sir John had given the more satisfying reply to which I have referred. He also said: So when the Prime Minister was asked, during a “If people on the Opposition Benches want to change their limited consultation, to ensure that the inquiry was mind, it is their right to do so, but what they say is completely inconsistent”.—[Official Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 27-30.] open whenever possible, he chose to ignore those requests. However, when faced with the possibility of a difficult In fact, we have never called for a secret inquiry. In one vote in his House, he changed within hours the approach of the all too many speeches that I have given in the that he had been insistent on, but chose to do so not by House on this matter, I argued in the debate two years coming to the House and saying that he had modified ago not only that the membership of the inquiry should his proposals, but by setting up an exchange of letters “draw on very senior diplomatic, military or political experience”, with Sir John, without any announcement to the House. but that it should be able One of the purposes of this debate is to allow Ministers “to hold some of its sessions in confidence if it needs to and to to explain to the House their understanding of an summon all the papers and persons it deems necessary.” inquiry that we are pleased will now be carried out on a substantially different basis from the one on which they The Prime Minister is happy to state in this House that were insistent only nine days ago. The policy on secrecy the Opposition had asked for a secret or private inquiry, has been changed. The lack of military expertise has but the fact that we had said that it should be able to started to be addressed, but has not been fully addressed. hold some of its sessions in confidence hardly equates The chairman of the inquiry has begun a process of to that. consultation, suggesting that more changes could be on In that same debate two years ago, hon. Members in the way, as they should be. all parts of the House were clear that the inquiry should An inquiry that is seriously overdue cannot even get be open. Indeed, I recall one hon. Member who was a off to a clean start, but will spend an unspecified period Back Bencher at the time saying that of time adjusting its remit—a recipe for confusion, “we need an inquiry that is fully in the open”.—[Official Report, rather than clarity. We appreciate the efforts of Sir John 11 June 2007; Vol. 461, c. 534.] Chilcot to make up for the deficiencies in the initial That was the demand of the hon. Member for Rhondda announcement, but the Government’s handling of the (), who is now the Under-Secretary of issue means that, as things currently stand, the inquiry State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. I am will start its work with far less credibility in the eyes of confident that he still holds the same view, although the public or Parliament than it should have had. “fully in the open” goes beyond anything that we have In addition to answering the questions that I asked asked for or that the Prime Minister has countenanced. earlier, let the Foreign Secretary now assist the inquiry, Perhaps the hon. Gentleman’s views were never asked the House and the country by being clear about the for—or perhaps they were ignored. following matters. Is it now the view of Ministers, as 811 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 812

[Mr. Hague] 24 months. It is important that I put on record in return that, at every stage, he has maintained the confidentiality well as of Sir John Chilcot, that the evidence put to the that is essential to such relationships. I recognise that inquiry should be heard in public whenever possible, and, of course, it will continue. and will the Foreign Secretary confirm that to the Britain’s involvement in Iraq has been one of the House? Will he explain the true reason why the Government longest and gravest military and civilian deployments were opposed to such a position until days ago, given abroad since the second world war. It cost the lives of that the reasons put to the House by the Prime Minister 179 British servicemen and women, and hundreds more were not credible ones? Will he confirm that it is the were seriously injured. We will all wish to pay tribute to Government’s view that the desirability of holding sessions their sacrifice and that of their families. In addition, I in public whenever possible applies as much to the am sure that the House will join me in recognising the inquiry’s forthcoming sessions with Mr. Tony Blair, courage and selflessness of all the military and civilian Mr. Alastair Campbell and the Prime Minister as to personnel who have served and continue to serve in anyone else? Will he also confirm that the inquiry will Iraq, and the courage of the brave Iraqi people, many, indeed be free to issue an interim report at any stage of many thousands of whom have also lost their lives, their its work, if it wishes to do so? Is he happy that a way livelihoods and their homes. Profound questions of can be found of giving evidence on oath or some international relations, nation building and regional equivalent to it? Will he confirm that the inquiry will security were, and are, at issue. have access to all relevant records of meetings and dealings between the British and American Governments? Harry Cohen: Is not the Secretary of State being Finally, will the Foreign Secretary apologise on behalf mealy-mouthed in saying that many thousands of Iraqis of the Government for the monumental mess that has died? Was it not 1 million? Cannot he at least confirm been made of what should have been a straightforward that? process of consultation and consensus? Will he also undertake that the Government will provide to the : It would be quite wrong of me to House the honesty about their own processes, the accuracy confirm that, because nothing— about the statements of others, the clarity about the operation of the inquiry and the efficiency in the whole Harry Cohen: Hundreds of thousands? conduct of this business, which this Government, from David Miliband: There were many hundreds of the Prime Minister down, have so far been unable to thousands. As I said, many, many thousands have lost supply? their lives. There is no difference between us, whether we voted for the war or against it, about the scale of the 1.11 pm suffering and the destruction. That certainly does not come between us at this point. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (David Miliband): I beg to move an amendment, Mr. Winnick: We all know that hundreds of thousands to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question have died, murdered, in the main, and certainly not by and add: the British or the Americans, but by outright terrorists; “welcomes the announcement by the Government of a wide so why will the opponents of the war, while maintaining ranging and independent inquiry to establish the lessons to be their position—they say that they were absolutely right, learnt from the United Kingdom’s engagement in Iraq, which will and all the rest of it—not condemn the terrorist action, consider the run-up to the conflict, the military action and which they refuse to do—[HON.MEMBERS: “Oh!”] Mass reconstruction; recognises the importance of allowing the families of those who gave their lives in Iraq to express their views about murder was carried out by terrorists, and certainly not the nature and procedures of the inquiry; notes the Prime Minister’s by Britain or the United States. request that the chairman of the inquiry consult party leaders and chairs of the relevant parliamentary committees on the scope David Miliband: Whatever position any right hon. or for taking evidence under oath and holding sessions in public; hon. Member has taken, I am sure that they all condemn and commends the proposal by the chair of the inquiry to hold as the killing of the British servicemen and women and the much of the proceedings as possible in public without compromising innocent Iraqi civilians as a result of terrorist action. I national security or the inquiry’s ability to report thoroughly and honestly do not think that the passion that we all bring without delay.” to this debate divides us on the ground of whether or The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks not we condemn the killing of innocent people. (Mr. Hague) started his remarks by referring to the terrible situation of the families who have heard that Mr. Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con): Will their loved ones have been confirmed dead and of those the Foreign Secretary give way? who are waiting in fear for further news of the three hostages still being held in Iraq. Mr. Speaker, I hope David Miliband: On that point? that you will allow me to use this opportunity to confirm that the Government are exploring every avenue and Mr. Ellwood: No. following every lead to try to save the lives of the three remaining hostages. I hope that you will also allow me David Miliband: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman to take this opportunity to say something that we do for his honesty. I shall make some progress. not often get a chance to say: namely, that on matters The House is united on the point that the significant such as this, the Government and the Opposition have nature of Britain’s involvement in Iraq demands an to keep in close touch. The right hon. Gentleman inquiry. It needs to be comprehensive, independent and referred on television the other day to the fact that he “not a trial or an impeachment, but an effort to learn for the had been kept in touch on this issue over the past 18 to future.” —[Official Report, 25 March 2008; Vol. 474, c. 47.] 813 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 814

Those are the words of the right hon. Member for inquiry. Everything beyond that will be within its remit. Richmond, Yorks in March 2008, and I agree with him It can praise or blame whomever it likes, and it is free to on how the inquiry should be conducted. It will have write its own report at every stage. That will be taken complete freedom to write its own report. The Government’s forward. case today is simple: Sir John Chilcot’s inquiry and his proposed method of conducting it will meet all reasonable Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab): We are aspirations for an Iraq inquiry. The combination of his clearly in a much better place than we were just a few remit and his membership, plus expert advisers, and his days ago. In addition to the points that the Foreign commitment to public sessions for as much of the Secretary has just mentioned, will he tell me whether, proceedings as possible will deliver to the country an after Sir John Chilcot has consulted, there will be inquiry of insight and value. Yes, the Government have formal terms of reference? If so, will they be converted listened. There is a balance to be struck between speed into a substantive motion to be put before the House? and confidentiality on the one hand and comprehensiveness Both of those things happened in the case of the Franks and transparency on the other. The balance now proposed inquiry. by Sir John Chilcot is new, but the Government believe that it will be effective and that it deserves strong David Miliband: I will come to that later in my support. speech. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the fact that Last week, the Prime Minister said in his statement there have been four previous debates on an Iraq inquiry. that the inquiry would There have been four demands from the official Opposition in each case, and they will be at the heart of my remarks “consider the period from summer 2001, before military operations began…and our subsequent involvement in Iraq right up to the today, in addition to my answers to the points that he end of July this year.” has just made. The first demand was that the inquiry should be comprehensive. The hon. Member for He then talked about an inquiry that will look at Woodspring (Dr. Fox), who is here today, said in the “the run-up to the conflict… the… conflict and reconstruction”.— most recent debate on the matter, on 25 March, that the [Official Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 23.] inquiry should have so that we can learn lessons in each and every area. I “the fullest remit, including the run-up to the war, the conduct of will highlight later the fact that we have deliberately not the war and the preparation for, and conduct of, the post-conflict ruled out areas that the committee can examine. Everything period”.—[Official Report, 25 March 2009; Vol. 489, c. 362.] in the period 2001 to 2009 is within its remit. On the The second demand was that the inquiry be independent. question of a vote in Parliament, we are obviously Each of the three motions on the subject moved by the going to vote today. That is a good opportunity for right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks—in June 2007, right hon. and hon. Members. March 2008 and March 2009—has referred to the need for an inquiry by an independent committee of Privy Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): Is Counsellors. The third demand was that the inquiry the right hon. Gentleman saying that if anybody has draw on expertise from outside the world of politics. lied to take the country to war, there will be no sanction The right hon. Gentleman said in 2006: as a result of the inquiry? “Acommittee of seven Members of Parliament would necessarily be a partisan committee and the credibility of its findings would David Miliband: As the Prime Minister set out last be correspondingly reduced.”—[Official Report, 31 October 2006; week, this is an inquiry not to establish civil or criminal Vol. 451, c. 182.] liability, but to learn lessons for the future, and it will The fourth demand was for a Franks-style inquiry. In write its own report. The right hon. Member for Richmond, motions, amendments, and speeches, the right hon. Yorks used the term “impeachment”. It is not an Gentleman has insisted that the inquiry be modelled on impeachment or a trial, but an inquiry designed to learn the 1982 Franks inquiry. The truth is that all four points lessons. are reasonable and serious and all deserve proper consideration. All draw on precedent as well as on common Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con): I thank the Foreign sense and all will be addressed in my speech today. Secretary, who is being generous in giving way. May I suggest that his list of characteristics of the inquiry Sir Malcolm Rifkind: The Foreign Secretary has just misses the central point? I put it to him that, outside said that the Chilcot inquiry will be completely free to this Chamber, there is a real sense of anger and betrayal write its own report as it wishes. Will he therefore that this country went to war on a false premise, that confirm that, like the Franks committee, if the Chilcot premise being weapons of mass destruction. If the inquiry decides that it wishes to attribute blame, it will inquiry, or large elements of it, is not held in public, I be entirely free to do so? suggest that that sense of betrayal will not be purged and the inquiry will fail, like the others before it. David Miliband: It is inherent in the inquiry writing its own report that it will be entirely free to write its own David Miliband: With the greatest respect, I can only report. As the Prime Minister said— believe that the hon. Gentleman was not listening to what I said at the beginning of my speech. To quote Sir Malcolm Rifkind: So the answer is yes? myself, Sir John Chilcot’s inquiry has made absolutely clear its commitment to hold public sessions for as David Miliband: As the Prime Minister said last much of the proceedings as possible. That answers the week, this is not an inquiry that has been set up to hon. Gentleman’s point directly. I will go into some establish civil or criminal liability; it is not a judicial detail later. 815 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 816

Several hon. Members rose— David Miliband: I have said that I want to get through this section of my speech; then I will bring in my hon. David Miliband: May I make some progress? Then I Friend. Perhaps I will anticipate some of her questions. will happily bring in further comments and questions. Again, that is an issue on which it is right and proper to leave the discretion to Sir John and his colleagues. Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): Will the Secretary In respect of the old canard about whether Tony of State give way on that point? Blair is willing to stand up in public and defend his decisions on the Iraq war, during a question-and-answer David Miliband: I will return to the point about the session last night—I am not sure whether it was a public sessions. First, I want to deal with the scope of continuation of the masochism strategy that was started the inquiry. in 2005—he said, “I don’t know how many times I have answered questions about Iraq in public, including now. The concern has been to ensure that the inquiry is There is no problem for me in answering questions in able to address itself to all aspects of preparation for public.” That is a canard. the military campaign, the military campaign itself, and post-conflict stabilisation and reconstruction. That is Several hon. Members rose— important. At various points, there have been allegations, for example, that the inquiry would not be able to look David Miliband: I want to deal with the questions on at the run-up to the war, or the decisions taken in Basra membership, but my hon. Friend the Member for in 2006 to 2008. Those concerns are not well founded. Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones) has been very The Chilcot inquiry has the widest possible remit. insistent and I will let her intervene. The committee will be free not just to examine all the evidence, as I will set out, but to pursue what it considers Lynne Jones: I thank my right hon. Friend for giving are the most important issues. The scope is deliberately way. Who did the Prime Minister consult about the not limited. As the Prime Minister said last week: composition of the inquiry, whether it would meet in public and its modus operandi—for example, in hearing “No inquiry has looked at such a long period, and no inquiry evidence under oath? As Sir John Chilcot has raised has the powers to look in so much breadth”.—[Official Report, those points about evidence being given predominantly 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 23.] in public, why was he not consulted before the Prime Secondly, on the question of independence, the Prime Minister announced that the inquiry would be in private? Minister wrote to Sir John Chilcot on 17 June assuring him of the Government’s commitment to a thorough David Miliband: Sir John was consulted. That is one and independent inquiry. Sir John confirms in his reply of the points and I will come on to the reasons. The of 21 June: hon. Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) “I welcome the fact that I and my colleagues are free to decide wanted to intervene earlier. Is his point still relevant? independently how best to fulfil our remit.” He is a former officer.

Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Will the Mr. Ellwood: I would like to intervene now, whether it Foreign Secretary give way? is or is not still relevant. [Laughter.] One learns quickly in the House, Mr. Speaker. My question is simple: does it require an inquiry to David Miliband: I want to get to the end of this understand the fundamental flaw and the frustration section of my speech, then I will bring in my hon. that the military finds, which was echoed by General Friend. I want to make four points before I pause, take Robin Brims, who was the commander of 1 (UK) interventions and deal with the public-private issue. Armoured Division and in charge of the forces in Thirdly, on co-operation from Government and access Basra? He said that we went into Iraq and, a month to Government papers and people, the Prime Minister later, it was clear that the looting would start, the gangs has made clear not just to Sir John Chilcot, but to all would form and the militias would be created because Ministers and former Ministers, the need for full there was no plan for peace. Will the Secretary of State co-operation with the committee. The Cabinet Secretary now acknowledge that we need a huge overhaul and an has written similarly to Departments. Access to papers examination of the relationship between the Ministry in official archives will be similarly unrestricted. of Defence and the Department for International In the previous debate in the House, I was asked Development? The world of warfare has changed from whether the committee’s access to documents would cold war to stabilisation operations. That is the fundamental include all Cabinet papers. I confirm that that will be frustration with our military, which is getting blamed the case. We have also been asked whether that includes for what happened in Iraq because the war fighting access to papers from foreign Governments held by the went well, but the peacekeeping was an absolute failure. Government here. Again, I confirm what the Prime Minister has said: that will indeed be the case. David Miliband: In the first debate on Iraq in which I participated after becoming Foreign Secretary, I talked On ensuring that witnesses give evidence with the about the precise fact that the success had been in greatest possible candour, Sir John has confirmed that winning the war, but not in winning the peace. I also he and his colleagues will consider whether it is possible talked about the fact that there were plans, as we now to have a process whereby evidence is given under oath, know, for how the process of peace building would be taking into account the non-judicial nature of the inquiry. taken forward, but if those were not binned, they were Again, that is an issue— certainly sidelined in the US Administration. All those issues, which are precisely about stabilisation and Lynne Jones: Will the Foreign Secretary give way? reconstruction, will be at the heart of the inquiry. 817 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 818

It is very important—the hon. Gentleman will know : I thank the Foreign Secretary. this better than many people—not to draw facile Surely it is wrong to allow Sir John Chilcot to decide comparisons between Iraq and Afghanistan. None the whether evidence should be taken under oath when he less, there is a major job of reconstruction and stabilisation does not have the power to require it to be taken under going on in Afghanistan, and we should certainly be oath? He could make a recommendation to the House, sure that, in addition to the internal MOD inquiries, but it is the House that would have to give that power to there are external inquiries. the inquiry. It will not be good enough unless evidence is taken under oath. I ask the Foreign Secretary please Several hon. Members rose— to reconsider. David Miliband: I shall bring in the right hon. and learned Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram). Then, I David Miliband: Sir John has made it clear that there want to make progress. are ways in which he can invite the witnesses to make some kind of representation. This will not be a judicial Mr. Ancram: The Foreign Secretary mentioned a inquiry. Sir John is not there to establish criminal— moment ago the fact that Sir John Chilcot has been told [Interruption.] He has said that he thinks he is able to to see whether there are ways in which he can produce do that, and I think we should let him do that. Certainly, evidence under oath. Mine is a genuine inquiry: can the if any witness did not follow the protocols established Foreign Secretary tell me under what authority or power by Sir John, people would draw conclusions from that. Sir John could do that, other than under a statutory inquiry procedure, or, indeed, by being given a power to Paul Flynn: Will the Foreign Secretary give way? do so by legislation passed by the House? David Miliband: No. I need to make some progress. David Miliband: The right hon. and learned Gentleman Fourthly, let me deal with the membership of the knows well that the Inquiries Act 2005 sets out what is committee. The Government propose a committee of effectively a quasi-judicial procedure that may be appropriate senior public servants and figures from outside Government. for an inquiry that is set out to mediate between competing As the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks said, interests, but that is not what this inquiry is about. That they are recognised as outstanding figures in their respective Act also assumes legal representation for all parties fields. He spoke of military insight, but the more he concerned and restrictions on who may be questioned. described the work of the committee members, the For those reasons, among others, we chose the inquiry. more evident it became that they possessed a large The Prime Minister raised the question of oaths in amount of relevant expertise. Sir Lawrence Freedman is his statement last Monday. Sir John Chilcot believes the official historian of the Falklands campaign, Sir that there are ways in which he will be able to meet that Martin Gilbert has written extensively on military matters, need. We cannot say that he has full independence to Sir Roderic Lyne was private secretary for defence and pursue his remit as an independent chair and then start foreign affairs, and Sir John Chilcot was permanent to fetter his discretion. secretary at the . The hon. Member for South Hampshire is— Tom Levitt (High Peak) (Lab): I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way and I thank him for the Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): Mid-Norfolk. frankness of his statement. No one underestimates the difficulty that Sir John David Miliband: I am sorry. The hon. Member for Chilcot will have during the months of his work, but is Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Simpson) is becoming excited. he aware quite how difficult the job might be made for In passing, the right hon. Member for Richmond, him by the publicly given evidence being put through a Yorks mentioned the role of the expert assessors, who media filter by people who have already made up their will be chosen on the basis of their experience not only mind on what the outcomes of his inquiry should be, in military matters, but in legal, international development based on evidence that cannot be complete because and reconstruction matters. It is true that the five people some of it will, of course, be given in private? Is Sir John appointed to the inquiry are there because of their capable of resisting media attempts over the months to ability to sift different material, to ask hard and probing prejudice the outcome of his discussions? questions and to compose a final report of independence, insight and foresight. I believe, however, that Sir John’s David Miliband: Sir John is a strong, able, dedicated decision to add the assessors will ensure that any deficiencies public servant, and I think that he is well able to look that may exist are properly accounted for. after himself. He understands the need for an inquiry, not a circus. As I shall explain in a moment, the way in Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): Will the Foreign which he will balance the public and private elements Secretary give way? will, I think— David Miliband: I want to make some progress, because Clare Short (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Ind Lab): I know that many Members wish to speak. If the hon. Will the Foreign Secretary give way? Gentleman will let me do that, we shall see how we get on. David Miliband: On this point? Fifthly, I want to deal with an issue that has already Clare Short: On the point with which he is dealing. prompted a number of questions: the conduct of the inquiry. The Prime Minister has invited Sir John Chilcot David Miliband: In view of the right hon. Lady’s role, to consult leading Members of the House, including I will give way, but then I must make some progress. Select Committee Chairmen, and present proposals for 819 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 820

[David Miliband] David Miliband: I was going to conclude my speech, but I will give way to the hon. Member for Newark the conduct of the inquiry to ensure that those who (Patrick Mercer), because he has been trying to intervene appear before it do so with the greatest possible candour for some time. and openness. There are trade-offs on the public nature of the Patrick Mercer: I am most grateful to the Foreign inquiry in the context of intelligence and other matters Secretary. mentioned by the right hon. Member for Richmond, The Chief of the General Staff has made clear in the Yorks. He referred to the Franks report and the starring newspapers this morning that there were not enough role of Denis Healey in the 1982 debate. He will also troops to dedicate to Iraq, and that, even if there had remember that Lord Callaghan described the Franks been, the political will would not have been there. Will inquiry as a whitewash. Private inquiries are sometimes the Foreign Secretary guarantee that the balance of our described as a whitewash, but other people have described fighting power, how and when it is deployed, and the the , which was held in public, as a mistakes that were made will be properly examined by whitewash. The truth is that if people have decided in the committee? advance what they are going to conclude, they will describe either a public or a private inquiry as a whitewash. David Miliband: The whole experience will be examined, from 2001 to 2009. Precisely because nothing is ruled I think that Sir John Chilcot has anticipated precisely out and everything is ruled in, the committee will be the points that were raised by my hon. Friend the able to do that. Member for High Peak (Tom Levitt). Let me go through them. Sir John has set out four main parts of the inquiry, combining public and private aspects. First, Paul Flynn rose— there is examination and analysis of documentary evidence, which will be crucial to decisions on the course of the Mr. Gordon Prentice rose— inquiry, including decisions on the selection of witnesses and detailed lines of questioning. It will, by definition, David Miliband: I am going to bring my remarks to a occur in private. Secondly, there is the question of conclusion. I have been speaking for 25 minutes, and public proceedings. Sir John Chilcot has said that it will many right hon. and hon. Members— be essential to hold as much as possible of the proceedings in public, consistent with national security and the Mr. Prentice rose— candour of written and oral evidence. The Prime Minister and Sir John Chilcot have had close to the front of their David Miliband: As I said to the hon. Member for minds the strong and legitimate interest especially of Pendle (Mr. Prentice) at the beginning that I would give families of those who lost their lives in Iraq, and Sir John way to him later, I think that it would be unfair of me has made clear his determination to facilitate the public not to do so now. or private presentation of views. Thirdly, there is the question of private proceedings, Mr. Prentice: I thank my friend. I listened carefully to which will be important in allowing examination of what he said earlier, but I am still not clear about matters relating to national security.Classified information whether the majority of the sessions will be held in will be protected and witnesses will be able to speak public or in private. In a briefing paper circulated to without fear of legal action. Intelligence questions obviously Labour Members today, his office said: fit into that category. It is also important to protect the “The committee will sit in private with scope for public events position and relationships of current public servants, and hearings”. while ensuring that the committee is given the full Surely it should have said: “The committee will sit in benefit of their expertise. public with scope for private events”. Fourthly, and much unheralded, as Sir John has David Miliband: I do not think that my hon. Friend pointed out, there is the publication and debating of the has any difficulty in understanding the phrase “as much final report. The Prime Minister made clear last week as possible”, and neither do I. “As much as possible” that all relevant evidence should be published, except means that as much as possible will be in public. There when national security or similar considerations prevent will be the sifting of evidence that I have described, but it. Sir John has confirmed his determination to follow when it comes to the hearings and evidence sessions, as that pattern. Sir John Chilcot made clear in his letter to the Prime The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks asked Minister earlier this week, as much as possible will be whether the Government supported those points. I confirm held in public. I am not going to put a percentage on it, what the Prime Minister said in his reply to Sir John but Sir John’s intention is plain. He has made it clear Chilcot the day before yesterday. The answer is yes, we that national security issues will prevent some sessions do support the approach that Sir John has set out, and, from being held in public—that obviously relates to as I said at the beginning of my speech, we have listened intelligence matters. to the points that have been made. Paul Flynn: Will the Foreign Secretary clarify the Patrick Mercer: Will the Foreign Secretary give way? answer that he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright), who asked whether there would be another discussion on these matters and a Mr. (North Essex) (Con): Will the vote? Is the only way of supporting the point made by Foreign Secretary give way? my hon. Friend to vote against the Government 821 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 822 amendment? The Foreign Secretary’s answer was that David Miliband: I am very happy to give an unabashed we would have a vote today. Would he interpret a vote in and unwavering affirmative answer to my hon. Friend favour of the amendment as a decision by the House on that issue, and I am sure the inquiry would take that it is against a further vote and a further discussion evidence from him as well, if he would like to give it. on the final proposals? I was saying that the truth is that—

David Miliband: No. I would interpret it as indicating Lynne Jones: Will the Foreign Secretary give way? that my hon. Friend supports the Government amendment, David Miliband: No, I am sorry but I will not give which says that Sir John Chilcot has set out the appropriate way. My hon. Friend can speak later in the debate way in which to conduct the inquiry. My hon. Friend and—[Interruption.] Well, she is not a member of the has been in the House longer than I have, and I certainly Defence Committee, which was the reason I gave way would not seek to prevent him from articulating his previously. Nevertheless, I shall give way once again. views further at any stage in the future, but I would interpret his support for the amendment as an indication Lynne Jones: All I would like to know is whether, that he believes, as I do, that for all the comings and when the Prime Minister consulted Sir John Chilcot goings of the past 10 days, the Chilcot approach now about the inquiry, Sir John agreed that it should meet in meets all reasonable aspirations for a comprehensive, private. independent, thorough inquiry into the Iraq conflict and its aftermath. David Miliband: My understanding is that Sir John Chilcot had no objection to the announcement the Mr. Jenkin: Will the Foreign Secretary give way? Prime Minister made on Monday 15 June. He was very content with that and with the proposal that was made. In the light of the Prime Minister’s subsequent letter of David Miliband: I give way to the hon. Gentleman, 17 June, Sir John Chilcot considered the best way of although I do not know why I am doing so. conducting the inquiry. As I was saying, the truth is that for two years the Mr. Jenkin: May I put it to the right hon. Gentleman Government and Opposition have been agreed on the that, notwithstanding all the expertise that he has need for a Privy Council inquiry into Iraq, and we now mentioned, he has not mentioned any expertise within have one. We have been agreed that it should be broad in relation to the considerable dislocation ranging and independent and draw on non-political between Departments, which contributed to the lack of expertise. That is the model that we have proposed. We a plan at the time? also now have a widely respected chairman setting out The Foreign Secretary has not properly answered the the foundation of his approach and the balance between point raised by the hon. Member for Cannock Chase public and private hearings, with as much as possible in (Dr. Wright), or the point about evidence being given public. The result is an inquiry that can fulfil the on oath. I appreciate that he has made a lot of concessions mandate given to it of learning lessons that strengthen in terms of the original proposal, but is not the present our diplomacy, our military and our democracy. proposal for an inquiry really just a mess, and should he The right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks cannot not withdraw it, and instead consult properly with the credibly claim any fundamental disagreement with the Opposition parties and move forward with a proper Government about the nature, terms, scope or organisation consensus? of the inquiry, and the longer he talked about how much he welcomed the changes we have made since last David Miliband: I honestly think that the hon. Gentleman Monday, the harder it became to understand why he must have been talking too much to his colleagues was still making his own proposal for an inquiry. Sham during the course of the debate so far, or at least not outrage, and never mind bandwagonism, are good reasons have been listening. I think that we have clearly answered to vote down the Opposition motion. An even better the questions that have been put. I am reliably informed reason is that the Government amendment offers the that one does not need a statutory power to administer country an inquiry that meets the needs of the country, an oath, and I am happy to give further guidance on and I commend it to the House. that later. The truth is that for two years the Government and 1.43 pm Opposition have been agreed on the need for a Privy Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I Council inquiry into Iraq. should start by offering the apologies of my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr. Davey) for Harry Cohen: Will the Foreign Secretary give way? not being present. I think that he has written to both the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) David Miliband: No. and the Foreign Secretary to explain why, for family reasons, he has not been able to open the debate for the Liberal Democrats. Harry Cohen: On a point of clarification? I welcome the debate; it is both timely and valuable. I also accept right from the start that it is fair criticism of David Miliband: In that case, I shall give way. me and my colleagues to say that we approach this issue with a particular mindset. We opposed the war in Iraq Harry Cohen: I just want to ask this question: will the and none of us have changed our minds on that. I and inquiry be able to call witnesses who are not of UK my party have never faltered in expressing our enormous origin, such as, perhaps, Hans Blix or Kofi Annan? respect for the courage and professionalism of the 823 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 824

[Mr. David Heath] have been for the good of the House. He has clearly had his mind changed for him—that is more accurate than armed forces who are deployed in Iraq, and it is precisely “changed his mind”, I think. Had we had the early because we are concerned about that deployment and consultation that I think most people in his position the equipping of those armed forces that we think this would have undertaken, we would not have been in that inquiry is so important. I and my party have repeatedly position, but it is clear that the consultation was vestigial and regularly argued for an open, independent and and inadequate. thorough inquiry.What we want is not a closed, Franks-style What we had is what we always have from this Prime inquiry, nor an inquiry designed to protect the former Minister: he develops an idea, he writes it down on a Prime Minister—or, indeed, anybody else—but one that sheet of paper in big black felt-tip, and he then announces is capable of arriving at the facts and displaying them it and demands consensus support from all Members openly. Every time we have argued for that—which has on both sides of the House—and, in this instance, an been over many years now—we have been met with a independent chairman of a public inquiry. When he degree of prevarication from the Government; there has does not get that support and he has to backtrack on always been one reason after another why the time was the position he has taken, he does not do so openly; he not right to have this inquiry.Possibly the most disingenuous does not make an announcement— was that, in the very latter stages of British troop involvement in Iraq, it would somehow cause a massive John Barrett (Edinburgh, West) (LD): He does not diversion of military attention if we were to hold an do so here. inquiry in this country into the causes and conduct of the conflict in Iraq. It was argued that that would Mr. Heath: Yes, as my hon. Friend says, he does not distract the military authorities from their role in Iraq. do that here. He just allows it to be known that the However, at the same time, we were massively increasing Government have changed their position. Well that is our involvement in Afghanistan. That, apparently, was not good enough and, in this instance, it puts Sir John not any sort of distraction at all. Chilcot in the almost impossible situation of having to undertake an exercise in post facto consultation and Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): then to derive different terms of reference for the inquiry Is the hon. Gentleman not struck by the fact that in the from those that were set out by the Prime Minister. United States there have been a number of inquiries into the war, how it came about and the processes One of the difficulties that the Prime Minister has behind it, and that some of them have been conducted had is what he said, categorically, in response to my in public while excluding the necessarily secret areas? Is right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam that not in stark contrast to the reluctance of the British (Mr. Clegg): Government, who seek privacy in trying to resolve such “We also have to take into account what serving officers will fundamental issues? want to say to the inquiry. I think that…all those things involve a degree of confidentiality that would not suit a public inquiry”.— Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman is right. In both [Official Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 29.] America and other European countries, there have not That bold assertion lasted barely 24 hours before senior apparently been the obstacles that the British Government members of the military said what nonsense it was. I am believe were in place to an open and independent. Also, pleased that the right hon. Member for Richmond, historically, a number of examples of inquiries were Yorks quoted Air Marshal Sir John Walker, the former held while hostilities were still taking place and they head of defence intelligence, because his comment was were faced with no apparent obstacle to their progress. powerful and chilling in its clarity. He said: We finally reached the end of this stonewalling period, “There is one reason that the inquiry is being heard in private however, and the Prime Minister came to the House on and that is to protect past and present members of this Government. 16 June to announce the terms of the inquiry. I think it There are 179 reasons why the military want the truth to be out.” is fair to say that Members in all parts of the House Those are 179 good reasons, and one might add that were less than impressed with what they heard from there are several hundred thousand other good reasons him, because he seemed at pains to stress—almost over in the state of Iraq. any other consideration—how little of the inquiry would be held in public. Mr. Baron: I suggest that this episode not only reveals the mindset of the Prime Minister, but illustrates yet Clare Short: None. again the hallmark of this Government, which has been secrecy about the lead-up to the war. Even when I asked Mr. Heath: Yes, if it had been possible to hold none the Foreign Secretary to ensure that the vast majority of of it in public, I think that would have been exactly the the inquiry would be held in public, I did not get a position the Prime Minister would have adopted. That definite answer that it would be. It was an answer in is why I found it a bit rich to hear the Foreign Secretary’s which he tried to hedge his bets when it came to the contribution today. He suggested that the Prime Minister, exact extent to which the inquiry would be held in after having told the House that the inquiry would be public. That hallmark secrecy is what the public find so held in private, immediately on returning to his office distressing about this Government’s approach. wrote to Sir John Chilcot to say, “Well, of course I want you to make this as open as possible, and not the other Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman is right. When in way round.” Had we had proper consultation on the doubt, a blanket will be drawn over proceedings. We way in which this inquiry would be conducted in advance heard the quote from the briefing note, cited by the hon. of the Prime Minister’s statement, that would have Member for Pendle (Mr. Prentice). Indeed, the Government made him look a little less foolish, and it would also amendment is not far removed from that briefing note. 825 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 826

The difference is that last week the Prime Minister inquiry in a way that no lay member of a committee, wanted us to believe that the inquiry would be in however experienced and competent, can do. I strongly private. Now it suits the Government to have us believe argue that the inquiry should have the benefit of a that the inquiry will be mostly in public, but I have my counsel to the inquiry to provide that expert support, in doubts—and I have legitimate reasons to have doubts. terms of identifying the necessary written evidence and guiding lines of inquiry. I hope that Sir John Chilcot John Barrett: Does my hon. Friend agree that another will accept that suggestion. group of people would like to see the inquiry held in public? When the 100th soldier died in Iraq, his parents, The power to summons is not included in the terms who are constituents of mine, contacted me because of reference for the inquiry. The Prime Minister has they were concerned about what had happened. They provided an exhortation to people to be prepared to too deserve a full, open and public inquiry. give evidence to the inquiry. I hope that that takes the form of an order to members of the Government in the Mr. Heath: Of course they do, and I am glad that my wider sense—including civil servants and former hon. Friend makes that point. Sadly, there are grieving Ministers—to give evidence to the inquiry. I hope—and families up and down this country who deserve to know I trust that Conservative Members agree—that if there the circumstances in which this conflict was undertaken is any request for evidence from our parties, we would and in which their loved ones died. Many more service be prepared to provide it in person and in supporting personnel were wounded, and they have not yet been material. There were occasions, especially in the lead-up mentioned. to the war, on which contacts were made by several I want to know—and it would be nice to hear from parties with counterparts in the US and elsewhere that the Foreign Secretary—the precise criteria for closed are relevant to the conduct of the war and the expectation sessions of the inquiry. What is the definition of the that this House would support it. “public events”, mentioned by the hon. Member for It has been made clear that Government papers will Pendle, and the private sessions? Clearly, certain classified be provided, and the Foreign Secretary was explicit information will need private sessions, but many of us about Cabinet papers today. Can he be explicit about suspect that they will be the norm for much wider whether that will include legal advice to Cabinet, because categories of information. What criteria will be used to that has so far been officially withheld? Will it be made determine whether a session should be in public or available—[Interruption.] The Foreign Secretary says private? Will those criteria be published and how will from a sedentary position that it will be provided, so we they be assessed? We need to know the answers. have broken through that final barrier, that we have Mr. (East Hampshire) (Con): I hope, been arguing now for so long—that the legal advice on but I obviously cannot predict, that the inquiry will which the war was waged will be available to this work in the same way as Committees of the House. I inquiry and will be made public. I am very pleased to had the honour of chairing the Defence Committee have had that answer. I hope that it will not be redacted when we were holding some very sensitive inquiries into to a plain piece of black paper—we shall see. the Trident programme. It was more or less up to the witness to say, “That is a question I cannot answer in Clare Short: Just for clarity, the legal advice appeared public, but I will answer in private.” We would go into at the last minute in an answer to a parliamentary private session when we had finished with the public question in the . The other legal advice, part. So the public will get an idea of the sort of which was never circulated to Cabinet, came out when it questions that witnesses are not prepared to answer in was leaked during the election campaign. There was no public, provided they are led down that path. That other legal advice. should be reassuring to some degree. Mr. Heath: We had leaked advice, but it is a fundamental Mr. Heath: I am not sure that I am entirely reassured shift of policy by the Government formally to allow by that. Yes, of course, it is reasonable for a witness to sight of the legal advice to the Cabinet. I am delighted suggest that material that they may wish to share is that the Foreign Secretary has made that point and we confidential, but a decision then has to be taken—as it shall see whether there is any other legal advice that was would be in a court, in certain circumstances—on whether forthcoming in the context of the lead-up to the war. It that view is justified. I hope that the committee will be is relevant. sufficiently robust to take the view that that which does May I move to the issue of evidence under oath? I not have to be heard in private will not be heard in agree entirely with those who say that the best way of private. dealing with that is for this House to give authority to The inquiry will be essentially an inquisitorial process. the inquiry to take evidence under oath. This is not an It will not be the same as a court of law, which is inquiry under the terms of the Inquiries Act 2005. It is confrontational. It needs to be able to scrutinise and sift not a court of law. However, it is nevertheless quite material carefully, and it must also follow lines of inquiry. open to the House explicitly to give that power. I believe I share the view of the right hon. Member for Richmond, that the inquiry, in any case, has the right under law to Yorks that we need to ensure that the inquiry has access receive evidence under oath. I have been looking carefully— to those who are expert in the particular areas that need this might surprise some hon. Members—at the Evidence to be explored. It may be that the panel of assessors will Act 1851, and section 16 is still extant in this area. It cover all those areas, but Sir John Chilcot will have to be states: exceptionally careful to ensure that it does. But I would “Every court, judge, justice, officer, commissioner, arbitrator, go further. Those inquiries that are most effective have or other person, now or hereafter having by law or by consent of the benefit of a counsel to the inquiry—someone who is parties authority to hear, receive, and examine evidence, is hereby expert in cross-examination and with experience of it in empowered to administer an oath to all such witnesses as are courts of law or elsewhere, and who can follow a line of legally called before them respectively.” 827 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 828

[Mr. Heath] Dr. Tony Wright: Let me try to be additionally helpful on that point. Surely the essential difficulty is that the That confers a power not just on court officials but on Inquiries Act abolished the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) any person and if both parties are agreed, they can give Act 1921, which required a resolution of this House. evidence under oath. That is important because once Under that Act, all the powers that we are talking about they have sworn an oath, they are subject to the laws of were included. Parliament has given up the ability to perjury. That is the key point—[Interruption.] The hon. enforce these provisions and needs to rediscover it. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Cox) disagrees with me on this point, but I have Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I advice from another learned gentleman that that is am delighted to say to him that if he is in the House on precisely what would happen. The hon. and learned 7 July, he will hear that a ten-minute Bill in my name, Gentleman must explain to me why it would not. the parliamentary commissions of inquiry Bill, will be introduced that restores the right of the House to do Mr. Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): exactly what the hon. Gentleman’s Committee has In order for someone to be found guilty of perjury—or recommended—that is, to be able to set up parliamentary to be charged with perjury—it has to be demonstrated commissions of inquiry independent of the Executive. that the events were proceedings within the meaning of That is exactly what this House should have the power the common law. The difficulty about an informal inquiry to do. that is not set up under the Inquiries Act is that it is It surely cannot be right for witnesses to limit their quite likely that a court would hold that its proceedings preparedness to provide evidence. That means that someone were not proceedings of that character. Clarification is cannot breeze in and say to the inquiry, “Right, I’ve got needed, at the very least. an hour and then I’m off to Dusseldorf. I’m sorry, but that’s what you’ve got, so please ask your questions and Mr. Heath: Clarification is certainly needed, and I am then I will be on my way.” Frankly, we have seen that not equipped to argue points of law with the hon. and happen when people have appeared before Select learned Gentleman, save to say that any affidavit sworn Committees and it must not happen before an inquiry. before an officer of the court is subject to the law of perjury and that certainly is not within the course of As has already been said, the inquiry has an enormous proceedings. remit and it breaks down into various parts. I welcome the fact that it has a large remit, but I do not welcome Mr. Michael Ancram (Devizes) (Con): There is one the almost interminable delay in producing any response way of getting out of this confusion, and that is for this that might be occasioned by the size of the remit. It is House to pass a one clause Bill enabling the committee important that we therefore have phasing—I do not to administer the oath within the proceedings. why the Foreign Secretary finds this amusing. It is quite clear that conduct before the war is quite different from the conduct of the war, which is quite different from the Mr. Heath: I think that that is the case, but I am not peacebuilding operation. It is perfectly proper for the even sure that it needs an Act of Parliament. I think inquiry to consider those matters separately and in turn that a mere resolution of this House could confer that and to produce interim reports. I see absolutely no right. I do not understand why the Secretary of State or reason why, in the first instance, it should not consider any other member of the Government should resist the matters that preceded the involvement of the United such a move, because it seems so self-evidently necessary. Kingdom in this conflict and report on that. It does not Although I welcome the fact that Sir John Chilcot has need to take a huge amount of time from now for that said that he wants to specify to witnesses the need to be to happen. I strongly commend to the inquiry that it truthful, I do not think that that suffices in the context phases its work in such a way. If we can assist by giving of an inquiry of this nature. an indication from this House that that would be our preference, I think that we should. Sir Menzies Campbell: I am not sure that I am going to be entirely helpful to my hon. Friend, for which I The Iraq war was, in the view of many of us, a quite hope that he will forgive me. The material part of the massive failure of British foreign policy that was aided quotation that he read was the words “by consent”. In and abetted by those on both sides of the House who those circumstances, if a witness came before something were not prepared, perhaps, to consider the evidence that might not be proceedings in the technical sense and with sufficient assiduity. It is essential that we form a he or she declined to give consent, clearly the provisions view, that we learn from experience and that we provide of the statute to which he referred would not apply. As the truth, as far as we can, by means of this inquiry. has just been pointed out, the straightforward way to do That will help all those who have enormous concern this is either with a piece of legislation or a resolution of about the conduct of the war—they expressed it at the the House empowering Sir John Chilcot’s inquiry to put time and have expressed it since—all those who have witnesses on oath and, more to the point, compelling been involved through the military and who have seen them to attend. at first hand the difficulties, and all those who wanted the rebuilding of Iraq to take place with greater coherence Mr. Heath: I entirely agree with my right hon. and of strategy and policy than was the case. learned Friend. That is the weakness of the position—that Until we have a proper open, transparent, rigorous provision depends on mutual consent—but, of course, public inquiry into these matters, those lessons will not if a witness was not prepared to accept the provisions of be learned. That is why I will recommend that my right an oath by mutual consent, it would be in order for the hon. and hon. Friends support the motion tabled in the inquiry to draw conclusions about the veracity of the name of the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks. I evidence that was then adduced. hope that the House will speak clearly on this matter, 829 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 830 because I do not believe that the Government will not Inquiries always have several purposes, but a major take acquiescence with their proposed amendment today purpose of this inquiry must be the one that I am as approbation for the inquiry that they seek. I do not describing—to get inside the policy process so that we believe that the matter will come back to the House can begin to answer the questions that still hang in the again on a Government motion. I believe that this is the air and so contaminate people’s trust in that process. last time that we will have the opportunity to speak on it Without wanting to insert my own narrative into the and we must make our voices heard. events, I believe that an inquiry therefore has to be a huge process of decontamination, as it were, of the Several hon. Members rose— decline in trust occasioned by what happened. Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. I As I said in an earlier intervention, we are in much should remind the House that Mr. Speaker has placed a better place now than we were just a few days ago. If I 10-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches. may say so, I did not feel that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary’s heart and mind were fully engaged 2.9 pm by what he was telling us today. I think that I have Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab): Following known him well enough and long enough to know when that injunction, I think that we should all try not to his heart and mind are fully engaged in what he is revisit the substantive arguments about the Iraq war, on saying. I think that he had to say what he said but, if I which we all took vigorous and divergent positions. For may say so, I do not think that he quite believed it. myself, I anticipated that I would support the Iraq war. The truth is—and we need to be truthful, as this is a I was a great admirer of the former Prime Minister—as, big issue—that what has happened is an object lesson in indeed, I am a great admirer of the current Prime how not to set up an inquiry. I do not say that with any Minister, and as I will be of any future Prime Minister pleasure, but it is simply the fact of the matter. The from the Labour Benches—but I was also taken with terms of the Opposition motion are entirely right, and the courage of his devotion to the cause of liberal the only thing that would constrain me from voting for interventionism and of trying to do good against evil in it is the certain shamelessness on their part in putting it the world. forward. I was therefore in the market for military adventure, With his usual ingenuity, the right hon. Member for but the problem was that I could not follow the logic of Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) sought to explain what the argument. I am sure that many others shared that his party really wanted when it called repeatedly for a problem. When we talk about the inquiry, the central Franks-style inquiry. That, of course, was a private, and abiding questions that it has to engage with are as Privy Counsellor, inquiry, but the right hon. Gentleman follows: how did we get from 9/11 to March 2003? How said that that was not what he actually meant and that did we get from the twin towers to the invasion of Iraq? what the Opposition really wanted was all kinds of What was the policy narrative that took us from one to other things. the other? Everyone has constructed their own narratives about If I was confused by that, I am not surprised that my these events, some of which will remain forever unverified. right hon. Friend Prime Minister was too—or that he For example, I think that we shall never know about the might have thought that he was giving the Opposition legality of what was done. The nature of international what they had asked for. The Opposition, realising that law is such that we shall never come to a settled view on a different political moment has arrived, now pop up that. We can discover more about the process by which and say that they were in favour of a public inquiry all the Government took legal advice and so on, but I do along, but that is simply not the case. not think that we will ever settle central questions of that kind. However, I do think that what we will be able Mr. (Chingford and Woodford to discover will enable us to understand far better the Green) (Con): The hon. Gentleman’s record on these policy process that took us from 9/11 to the Iraq war. matters is impeccable and I apologise for interrupting Further questions involve what happened after the invasion, him in mid flow, but when I was Leader of the Opposition and why we had so much trouble managing the peace in we called for a full public inquiry. That was before the the years that followed. Opposition adopted the present position—and, by the The inquiry needs to tell us all that because, as has way, we did not use Franks as a caveat. been said, public confidence in our governing process has no chance of being restored unless we can find a narrative that people can test. They need to feel that the Dr. Wright: Obviously, I was completely misled by process has at least been properly interrogated and what was said in the House at the time. I am sure that examined, and an inquiry is absolutely essential for that closer textual analysis would have revealed all the caveats purpose. in place then, but I am explaining why it is difficult to sign up to the Conservative motion today, even though One of the difficulties with what the Government I think that its terms are entirely right. announced was that they seemed not to understand that that would be a central purpose of the inquiry. It is, of I think that we have to do better with the inquiry’s course, absolutely pivotal that we learn all the lessons, terms of reference; it is not satisfactory to have an and the Government were right in the way that they inquiry with no formal terms of reference. The period established the scope of the inquiry and its extensive that has been set out is the correct one, and there has period. However, to think that the inquiry would be just been a statement about learning the lessons of what about learning lessons—important though that is—is happened in that time, but we must do better in establishing to fail to understand what its several purposes have the inquiry’s formal terms of reference—that is, what its to be. purpose is. 831 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 832

[Dr. Tony Wright] 2.20 pm Mr. Michael Ancram (Devizes) (Con): I am grateful Should the inquiry be public or private? Anyone who to be called, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall be brief, as has thought about that for a moment will understand many of the points I wished to raise have already been that, 30-odd years after Franks, it is not possible to made, as is the nature of such debates. announce that an inquiry of this kind on a central public policy issue could be conducted entirely in private. It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for We have only to sniff the air to know that that is not Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright). I listened to him with doable any more. great care, but he was wrong on one point, when he said that he had not heard that we had been calling for It is right to say that, after Hutton, some people will sometime for a judicial inquiry. In fact, the right hon. damn all inquiries even before they start. Yet the Hutton and learned Member for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies inquiry operated in public and had its own website: all Campbell) moved a motion on 4 June 2003, calling for the material was posted there for people to interrogate such an inquiry, and I supported him on it. I moved a for themselves, and the sky did not fall in. Government motion on 16 July 2003 and again on 23 October 2003, did not become impossible, and in the present circumstances each of which called for a judicial inquiry where the it was just not sustainable—and nor should it be—to proper rules of evidence could be applied. It was on that announce an inquiry into the Iraq war and say that it latter occasion when the then Foreign Secretary said, would be held entirely in private. “No, we cannot have one; it will take too long, and it The composition of the inquiry is well worth attending will go over the election so the people will not be able to to, as several hon. Members have noted. What is the make a judgment”. We also had a running motion on best balance of expertise that will be required? How will the Order Paper on every sitting day between July and the inquiry be conducted? There is much merit in thinking October. We made our position quite clear—we wanted about segmenting the inquiry. The huge, dominant issue an open and comprehensive inquiry. has to do with the run-up to the war and the decision to go to war, but a second issue is what happened with the If I may say so from the outset, I am a great respecter preparation for after the war. What was the cause of all and admirer of Sir John Chilcot, who was permanent the trouble then? secretary in the Northern Ireland Office when I served there. I think he has tremendous ability, but we must I can see that it would be possible to conduct the first not ask him to do the impossible. In some ways, by part of such an inquiry in a much shorter time than the leaving the remit as vague and open as it is now, we are whole thing would need. It may well be that Sir John in danger of doing so. Chilcot will think that a sensible way to proceed, but he certainly could have been pointed in that direction. I want to see an inquiry that, after six years and despite those earlier calls, will finally bring closure to I want to repeat, very quickly, the point that I made the issue of Iraq. We started to call for an inquiry so in my intervention on the hon. Member for Somerton early not just because of the fog of war, but because of and Frome (Mr. Heath), as the House needs to understand the fog of the nature of the evidence, which meant that why it has been marginalised in these matters. I set out there were disputes, disagreements and controversies the position under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) about the actual truth. Although I and my party—or Act 1921 because it inserted Parliament, albeit in a most of it—voted for the war, I felt that it was essential formal sense, in the centre of the process involved in for the British people to understand what had happened. setting up an inquiry. That process gave an inquiry all One way or the other—whether I was right or those the powers of a High Court judge. All the procedural who argued against me were right—the British people rules were in place, and the inquiry had all the authority had a right to know. That is why it is so important that, of Parliament behind it. That was converted into a on this occasion, we get this inquiry right. If we end up parliamentary resolution, with terms of reference. What with another inquiry that leaves disagreements, doubts, we have done is to allow the Executive to remove confusion and upset, we will not have served the British Parliament’s residual role from the process of setting up people as I believe that we should. an inquiry. When our Select Committee looked at this, we were Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Flight-Lieutenant Stead particularly concerned about circumstances where was killed in the Iraq war when his Hercules did not Governments did not want to set up an inquiry, but have the proper suppressant foam. His parents, who live having one was in the public interest. In those circumstances, in my constituency, wrote to me to say: how could Parliament itself initiate the process of having “We would like to express our outrage… that the long awaited an inquiry? For a time, that was the issue with Iraq. It Iraq inquiry is to be held in private. To those of us who gave the looked as though the Government were less than keen life of a son or daughter to this conflict this is the biggest insult about having an Iraq inquiry, and Parliament did not that he could have afforded both to them and to us. If our have any mechanism to bring one about. sons/daughters were willing to offer up their lives for Queen and Now we have had the announcement on the Iraq country Gordon Brown owes it to them to display all the facts inquiry, but Parliament has not been involved in the publicly”. process of thinking about some of the issues—about Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that for purpose, terms of reference, composition and so forth. the people whose family members were killed, it is very That would have been the normal procedure until the important to hold this inquiry in public? previous position was abolished. I thus invite the House of Commons as part of its general project at the moment Mr. Ancram: I absolutely agree, except obviously for of reclaiming— particular matters where national security might be at stake. On that issue, and with respect to my right hon. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates), I 833 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 834 hope that it is not left to the witnesses to decide what I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, counts as a matter of national security, but that the North (Mr. Winnick) that although I recognise the scale committee itself makes that decision. I hope that the of the civil war in Iraq between the Sunni and Shi’a and committee will apportion blame and I am delighted that that issues of are relevant, the suggestion that the Foreign Secretary has agreed that it should be those who still believe that it was right to oppose the allowed to do so. war are in any way less opposed to terrorism than Above all, however, I hope that the inquiry will be others is not at all helpful. My hon. Friend should able to take evidence that will answer the key questions. understand that. There are so many that I cannot rehearse them all, but what was the extent and nature of the intelligence and Mr. Winnick: If I gave the impression that there are the advice given to Ministers on which judgments were hon. Members who do not condemn terrorism, I am made before and the during the war? Was the equipment sorry and I apologise, but time and time again, those given to our troops during the war—this applies to the who opposed the war mention the hundreds of thousands question asked of me by my hon. Friend the Member for who undoubtedly died, but do not give sufficient emphasis Shipley (Philip Davies)—sufficient for purpose? Were to the fact that those are due to terrorist action, certainly we doing what we needed to do for our troops or not? not to the killings carried out by the occupation forces. Was there ever a reconstruction plan for after the war— one of the great disputed questions? In America, it is Dr. Strang: We also have to remember that it is not said that there was no plan; it was junked. When I just a matter of the deaths, as so many people have been asked the then Foreign Secretary about that before the injured and maimed as well. war, he said that there was a reconstruction plan. If there was such a plan, why were we never told about it Clare Short: Many of those who cautioned against after the war? If there was no reconstruction plan, why the war said that there was a grave danger of the were we assured before the war that there was such a outbreak of chaotic violence. I think that passing off plan? responsibility for bringing that about—and all the deaths That is why the matter of evidence on oath is so that flowed from it—by saying that it is all due to important. We have already had a number of inquiries, terrorism is not good enough. but they have not settled those disputes, questions and uncertainties. None of those inquiries was conducted Dr. Strang: Yes, I think that there is a consensus under oath. Even the Hutton inquiry, which had all the there. appearance of being a legal inquiry, did not have the The Government amendment makes explicit reference power to take evidence under oath. The reason for to the families, where it says taking evidence under oath is that if we are to satisfy “recognises the importance of allowing the families of those who people that they are hearing the truth, they must know gave their lives in Iraq to express their views about the nature and that they are hearing, in terms of the oath, not just the procedures of the inquiry”. truth, but the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If That is fine. Families, and the organisations that represent they do not hear it and if it can be shown that they have them, are hugely important. Let us not have any doubt not heard it, there is a legal sanction that can be taken about the scale of the opposition to this intervention against the person who has misled the committee. among the military. There is no question about that. If we are not to go down the road of a judicial People working at the Ministry of Defence demonstrated inquiry, I say to the Foreign Secretary that we need to outside this place during our debates at the time. There look very closely at the powers this House needs to give was huge opposition in all the military services to the the inquiry that is set up. In my view, we need a short decision to send our troops to Iraq. I hope that in the piece of legislation to allow this inquiry to summon inquiry we do justice to the families and their organisations, witnesses and to apply the oath to them on the including Military Families Against the War. understanding that if anyone misleads the inquiry, the I have listened to the Opposition members who have full sanctions of the law of perjury can be applied. We spoken with interest. The Opposition propose that the must make sure that on this occasion, the inquiry brings remit of the inquiry be broadened so that it goes back this matter to closure. If it does not, we will have missed to 2001, and we welcome that, but I hope that there is an enormous opportunity and after so many people not the slightest suggestion that the intervention in Iraq have waited for so long for this inquiry, I think they will had some logistical follow-on from 9/11. The al-Qaeda feel incredibly betrayed. presence was virtually non-existent. I say that as someone who had the privilege of serving on the Intelligence and 2.26 pm Security Committee when the previous Prime Minister, Dr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East) (Lab): My right Tony Blair, asked it to look into that issue, so I will not hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary rightly referred to the make too much of it. We know what happened: the US fatalities of the war, including the hundreds and thousands and the whole of the west looked strong after 9/11. It is of Iraqis who have died. We are now debating the a hard thing to say, but there was a sort of glow and British intervention in the war. I shall not rehearse the invading Iraq destroyed all that. It was a huge boost to figures on British deaths, but we need to take into al-Qaeda and other forces. account all the American deaths, too—3,455 of the That is enough of the substance; I shall return to American armed forces. That figure rises to 4,318 if we some of the points raised by the party leaders, who will include civilians, and to a total of fatalities among the obviously be important in the inquiry process. We certainly coalition as a whole of 4,632. We know the scale of the support the involvement of the military assessors. Obviously, military losses and the enormity of the loss of life in all the services are heavily involved and it is important Iraq. that they are consulted. We should pay tribute to the 835 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 836

[Dr. Strang] That will not help anyone. I am sure that there are people who are still as absolutely committed in their military; all the services fought for their country and support for the invasion and the occupation, just as anyone who dies for their country—no matter how they there are those equally committed the other way. The die—should be treated with respect and as a hero. process is not about political point scoring. We need a The committee membership is a bit small, however. report about which we can say, “Yes, they really went There are a couple of historians. I have no problems into this thoroughly and made it as available as possible about the inclusion of two historians—I was a scientist, to Parliament and the British people. They made a but I recognise how important history is in determining judgment on the lessons for Parliament, which supported where we are politically. We could even put another the Government who committed us to go to Iraq.” historian on the inquiry. The inquiry is not about getting Tony Blair to give The shadow Foreign Secretary mentioned that the evidence in public, although presumably that will happen. official Opposition had managed to gain an addition to It is taken as read that Ministers will give evidence, and the membership after their dialogue with the Government, some of it may be in public and some in private. The and that a woman would be added to the list. Obviously, issues are important. We have to be clear in our minds I support in principle the addition of a woman—a that we are setting up an inquiry that really will take member of the other place. I have no doubt that Baroness things forward constructively. Prashar will be a diligent member of the committee, but who does she represent? She is the parliamentarian. 2.37 pm Were the official Opposition consulted about the parliamentarian on the inquiry? Was there a deal only Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington and Chelsea) (Con): in terms of the sex of the person who would represent The hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) put the British Parliament? Baroness Prashar will certainly his finger on it when he said that 30 years after Franks it not represent the House of Commons, so that issue is of was inconceivable that anyone should have thought that interest. What is the position of parliamentarians in such an inquiry could be held in private. He knew that, I relation to the inquiry? knew that and the whole House knew that, so it prompts the question why the Prime Minister was of a different Mr. Jenkin: Excluded. mind. Given that he had months to determine the announcement he would make, why did he ever conceive that the inquiry would be acceptable if it was heard in Dr. Strang: I asked the question in the context not private? just of our being Members of the House of Commons but of our role when people go before the inquiry. Who did the Prime Minister consult beforehand? We There have been quite a few losses in —in know it was not the armed forces—they have made that Edinburgh and elsewhere—and as the Government rightly clear. We know they wanted to give their evidence in acknowledge, families will go to the inquiry. Can they public. I do not say this in a partisan way, because take their Member of Parliament with them? Those are ultimately the Prime Minister is a rational person, but important issues. one has to conclude that there was only one rational explanation for his hoping to get away with it, and the The question is not now about private or public. The House must forgive me for saying it: we will be having a concession has been agreed; the committee will meet in general election within the next 11 months. If it was public and in private. It must always be accepted that in possible for the evidence to be heard in private, the an inquiry of this nature not all the evidence and media would have no way of maintaining interest over intelligence material will be put in the public domain. It that period. There would be interest only when the is only sensible to recognise that. All the briefing and inquiry eventually reported, with the election having material provided in the run-up to the decision to gone one way or the other. Now that the inquiry is to be commit British forces to the invasion was secret. Some in public, there will be constant opportunities, as witnesses more of that material may be made available, but no come forward, to report anything of newsworthy interest. one can seriously expect that it will all come out. As there is no other rational explanation, I can only I do not know Sir John Chilcot, but I am sure he will assume that that is what the Prime Minister had in be an excellent chairman. In fact, like most people, I do mind. not really know any of the members of the inquiry, In the Prime Minister’s statement, he told us that although we have read about them. The committee there were national security reasons, but of course we seems rather small, although we note the advances that all know that any genuine national security considerations have been made since the initial announcement and can be heard in private in any event, and will be, under they are obviously welcome. any scenario. We were told that the armed forces would The scope of the inquiry is probably fair. The Foreign not wish to give their evidence in public, yet a series of Secretary made it clear that the scope has opened up generals, air marshals and admirals made it clear that across the board; the committee can pretty well look at that was not remotely their view. what it wants over the whole time scale, which is The Prime Minister then came up with a splendid important—before the invasion is particularly important. remark: public inquiries mean “lawyers, lawyers and I do not want to rehearse everything, but there were a lawyers”. I have to declare that I do not have an interest. number of key votes in the House of Commons, including Although I have a legal background, I have not practised two big votes in 2003, in February and March. as a lawyer since 1978, and if I needed a lawyer, I would There are many important questions. Yes, this is not instruct me. However, the question of lawyers depends about learning lessons. We all want to learn lessons, but not on whether an inquiry is public or private, but on we do not want a rerun of the debates and arguments. whether evidence will be given on oath, because that is 837 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 838 the only basis on which anyone would wish to be to ensure that the Prime Minister and the Foreign accompanied by a lawyer. When I gave evidence to the Secretary examine the matter again, because if the Scott inquiry on so-called arms to Iraq, I did not find it inquiry is to carry credibility with the armed forces, necessary to be represented by a lawyer. The idea that which is as important as its credibility with any other lawyers are necessary if there is a public inquiry is not sector of the community, it is crucial that they are remotely correct. represented on the committee. As we have heard, the Prime Minister then had to go My final point relates to the question of blame. The into reverse, and we have not seen such a retreat since Prime Minister’s original statement was quite clear: Napoleon’s from Moscow—we should remember that “The committee will not set out to apportion blame”.—[Official that eventually led to his Waterloo. Even in retreat, Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 24.] however, the Prime Minister was very foolish. He started His clear intent was that the committee should reach by allowing his spokesman to say that the issue was not conclusions on the facts and make statements about theological. He then said that the matter was for the what happened, but not criticise Ministers, officials or chairman of the committee to decide, but that was not anyone else involved. I welcome the fact that the Foreign the case. The fundamental question of whether an Secretary set out today, at the Dispatch Box, that that is inquiry should be public or private is for the Government no longer the Government’s position. The Government to recommend to the House so that a decision may be know that they could not sustain such an intolerable reached accordingly, with the chairman of the committee position. A lot of reference has been made to the no doubt accepting that view. Franks committee, but that was not so constrained, We then saw the somewhat sad statement in a letter to because it was for the committee to decide whether to Sir John Chilcot, when the Prime Minister was beginning criticise the Government. It concluded that it should to move ground, that it would perhaps be appropriate not, but that was its decision, not one that had been for the bereaved to give their evidence in public, if they imposed on it. It is highly desirable that such a situation wished. Perhaps they will but, as we all know, whether should apply now. I cannot recall the number of occasions the bereaved give their evidence in public is the least on which Tony Blair said, “I accept full responsibility important issue. The crucial consideration is whether for the war”, which implied a major concession, but those who sent the relatives of the bereaved to fight in then went on to defend everything that he had done. Let the war give their evidence in public. us see whether he was entitled to do that. If the committee takes the view that he was not, it would be improper to Lynne Jones: If Sir John Chilcot had been uneasy prevent it from expressing that judgment. about the Prime Minister’s decision that the inquiry The Government have moved on a number of important should be conducted in private, it must have been possible issues, but each time they have done so grudgingly and for him to refuse to chair it, especially as we now hear unconvincingly, while giving explanations that do not that he has changed his mind. hold water. As several hon. Members have said, the process has been carried out not through statements to Sir Malcolm Rifkind: I am not entirely convinced that the house, but through the entirely artificial device of Sir John Chilcot has changed his mind. I have no letters between the Prime Minister and the chairman of doubt that, as the chair of the inquiry, he had to accept the committee. what the democratically elected Government of the day I am conscious that many hon. Members wish to decided. speak, so I shall conclude by reminding the House of a I turn to the question of composition. I agreed with statement made by Edmund Burke in 1780: what the right hon. Member for Edinburgh, East “If there is one eminent criterion which above all the rest (Dr. Strang) said. I have nothing against Baroness Prashar distinguishes a wise government from an administration weak and I am sure that she is an impressive lady in her field. and improvident, it is this—‘Well to know the best time and However, no one with military experience will sit on the manner of yielding what it is impossible to keep.’” committee, although the whole purpose of the inquiry The Government, by both their timing and manner, is to examine a war and the provision made for fighting show that they have a lot to learn from the wise remarks it successfully. Baroness Prashar’s biographical details— of Mr. Burke. chairman of the Judicial Appointment Commission, chairman of the Parole Board for and and director of the National Council for Voluntary 2.46 pm Organisations—are no doubt those of an impressive (Ilford, South) (Lab/Co-op): When we person, but they are not remotely comparable to those heard last week’s announcement that there would be an of a former Chief of the General Staff or First Sea inquiry, I had two concerns: first, about the intention Lord, or a person with military skills. that it would be held in private, on which many hon. All the Government have been able to say, even when Members have commented; and, secondly, about its they began their retreat, is that assessors will be available scope. I welcome the Government amendment, which to assist the committee. However, we have not heard goes a considerable way towards answering the first of why, in the Government’s view, it is inappropriate for my concerns, because it makes it clear that a substantial someone with senior, serious military experience to sit part of the inquiry will be held in public. I hope that the on a committee that is examining what happened in the “relevant parliamentary committees” that there is a run-up to a war, during that war and in its aftermath. It commitment to consult will include the Foreign Affairs is disgraceful that the Government have not only failed Committee and the Defence Committee, both of which in that respect, but have not even provided an explanation carried out inquiries in the previous Parliament and to the House. Although the Minister for the Armed made relevant observations that could be taken into Forces might not have the authority to do so, I ask him consideration. 839 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 840

[Mike Gapes] 2.52 pm Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford I am still worried about the focus and scope of the Green) (Con): First, I draw attention to my declarations inquiry, however, and I wish to discuss the eight years of interest and apologise to the Government and Opposition that the inquiry is supposed to cover. Why does the Front Benchers for not being able to be here for the period start from 2001? Why will no account be taken opening speeches. I am grateful for your tolerance, of the reason why there was a problem with Saddam’s Mr. Deputy Speaker, in allowing me to speak in the Iraq? The inquiry will have to look at that context, so it debate. I was at a meeting with a charitable foundation is wrong that there is an arbitrary date of 2001. I that could not be changed. My apologies to the House questioned the Prime Minister about that when he gave for that. his statement. He said that it would be for the inquiry to go back, if it wished to. I make a strong plea that it May I say at the outset that I fully support, and have does so. always supported, the idea of a full, public inquiry? My I make my plea in the context of important remarks right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Devizes made by the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Ancram), who is not in the Chamber right now, (Mr. Hague), who said: pointed out that on two occasions in 2003, we tabled motions calling for, and we voted for, a full inquiry “May I express, on behalf of the Opposition, our full support based on the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921. for the action that has been taken by the Government and the United States, while regretting that it has been made necessary by A tribunal held under that Act is not allowed to refuse the persistent failure of the Iraqi leader to keep his word or the public, including the press, honour international obligations?” “to be present at any of the proceedings of the tribunal unless in On the same occasion, the right hon. and learned the opinion of the tribunal” Member for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) and solely in its opinion, said: “it is in the public interest” “Does the Prime Minister understand that he enjoys Liberal to do so, for various reasons. My right hon. and learned Democrat support for the action that he has taken in deploying British forces against ?”—[Official Report, Friend made that clear at the time. We also had on the 17 December 1998; Vol. 322, c. 1102-04.] Order Paper, in July of that year, a motion calling for Those remarks were made not in 2003, but in 1998, in just such an open inquiry, so although there is now support of the bombing of Iraq by British forces in debate between the Government and my right hon. and December that year, without a United Nations Security hon. Friends on the Front Bench about whether the Council resolution specifically to authorise it. That terms were those of the Franks inquiry, we called for a action was defended in this House by the late Robin full, public inquiry. I hope that that is established once Cook, then Foreign Secretary. That has to be taken into and for all, and that we get away from this rather silly account as part of the context. game-playing about what one group called for and another group did not. We cannot have an inquiry that focuses simply on events from 2001 until 2008 or 2009, and that does not I speak today as a continuing supporter of what we take account of the fact that we were operating a no-fly have done in Iraq. I find that position perhaps a little zone over Iraq and imposed for more lonely these days than it was originally, but it is 12 years. It was alleged that 500,000 children died as a always best to be honest with oneself and one’s colleagues. result of those sanctions. The context was a policy of I remain of the opinion—this does not affect my reasons containment. There has to be an assessment of why, for why there should be an inquiry—that ultimately, when action was taken in 2003, there was support for it when we look back, we will recognise that what happens in some quarters but opposition in others, including now in the middle east will have been dramatically opposition from people who had been quite happy to affected for the better by what we did at the time. Of support the bombing of Iraq without a Security Council course, that is not to say that everything is therefore resolution in 1998, yet who, in 2003, suddenly found forgiven; that is the point of the inquiry. that to be a resigning matter. We need that context The British public have, for various reasons, come to because we need to be honest. lower their belief in and respect for politics. They feel to I hope that when the committee calls its witnesses, it this day that they were never quite given the truth about will call Iraqi Kurds who suffered as a result of chemical what we were doing and why we were in Iraq. The weapons being used against them in Halabja. I hope question is not whether we should have gone to war, but that it will call the democratic Iraqi opposition, and the how the British public came to understand the reasons people—millions of them—who were forced to go into why we were in Iraq, and so could give their consent or exile by Saddam’s regime. not. That is the importance of the inquiry. It is time—we It is not sufficient simply to look at events in the should have done it earlier—to clear the way on that, to context of the period from 2001 until now. We need to get at least some closure for all of us, and to start look at the issue in the round and understand why, rebuilding politics. We are suffering from the need to do despite all the difficulties referred to—the tens or hundreds so, as a result of other issues that have been around us of thousands of people who lost their lives, and the in the past few weeks. members of the coalition forces who suffered and died As my right hon. and hon. Friends have mentioned as a result of action following the liberation of Iraq time and again, and as my right hon. and learned from Saddam—today we have a democratic Iraq where Friend the Member for Kensington and Chelsea the Iraqi people can determine their own future. I hope (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) said categorically, the Prime that the inquiry will consider the issue in the round, and Minister in his announcement last week made some not narrowly focus on certain issues relating to 2002 very clear statements of limitations to the inquiry. That and 2003. is the problem. Since then, in the past seven days, we 841 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 842 have seen those statements unwind in front of our eyes. The last issue is the aftermath and reconstruction. On That is an important factor, because the issue is not just that issue, we should perhaps draw on people from the about the inquiry. We have a crisis in this Chamber. We Department for International Development and others have so given away the idea that we Back Benchers, who were involved. I remember that when I was Leader rather than the Front Benchers, should control what is of the Opposition, we had a debate or two about the done that we have handed everything over to the Executive, plans for the aftermath. The composition of the committee whatever party is in power. I think that we are beyond is not good enough. We need to reinforce it from the the point where we can play party politics. House and from the military. The fact is that we should have sat down and considered My second point is about the oath. We need to take the matter properly, and we should have come to the back the power to set up an inquiry that has the power conclusion that in this day and age, it is not feasible, as to take evidence under oath. I would be happy to give the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) said, such evidence—everybody should be. The public now for us to hide anything away from the public. If we have believe that unless something is said under oath, it is not learned anything at all in the past three to four weeks, necessarily to be trusted. We must do everything we can we have learned that, now, anything other than openness to make sure that the inquiry’s findings are demonstrably simply will not wash. The days of deference and respect, evidence that can be trusted, otherwise there will be and the belief that politicians behind closed doors will more cries that it has not worked. always come to the right decision, will no longer wash Before closing, I make the point to my colleagues that with the British people. The only way for us to clear the in all this, we should default to openness. Without that, air is to have the inquiry fully in public. The default we will not have credibility. The issue is as much us and mechanism of the inquiry should be, “Everything in our weakness in this place as it is the inquiry.It demonstrates public, unless,” and the “unless” needs to be reasoned. to us more than ever before that we need to draw back powers to the Chamber, the House and the Back Benches I am concerned that we are leaving it to somebody so that once again we stand as the elected representatives who is not elected to make a decision about what the of the British people, so that their anger, fear, vexation inquiry will do, which is fundamentally wrong. Have we and concerns can be represented in the Chamber. The in this House so lost a sense of ourselves that we do not terms of an inquiry should not be dictated by an want to put an elected Member of Parliament on a Executive who may have political motives for deciding committee of inquiry into a war that we voted for in this that it should or should not take place in certain Chamber, and for which all of us, myself included, have circumstances. I hope the Government will rethink the to answer? Why do we not have a politician, or two matter. politicians, on the inquiry? Why are we so ashamed that Ultimately, we must allow the British people to decide we give way to a baroness? Whatever her credentials—my whether the war in Iraq was worth while, whether it right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington should have been undertaken, and whether that was and Chelsea mentioned them—she is not elected. We done for the correct reasons. If they can reach a good are elected. We are the ones who have to be accountable conclusion on that, respect for politicians will rise and to our electorate. Why are we not on the committee? We we will have reached a point where we can close the have nothing to be ashamed of. We should be on the issue and move on. Like justice, politics cannot just be committee because it would give it a cutting edge. I done. It must be seen to be done. hope that the Government will think again about that. It would be an opportunity to rebuild respect in Parliament 3.1 pm if somebody from this place went on that committee and made a statement about the passion that Parliament Mr. Robert Marshall-Andrews (Medway) (Lab): Many feels on the issue. That is very important. art forms thrive as a result of warfare, but none more, as a result of the Iraq war, than the art of sophistry. The Beyond that, I agree with my right hon. and learned ancient art of the sophist took apparently wise and Friend and other learned Members who have said that irrefutable statements which, when they are carefully the composition of the committee is simply not good examined in the context in which they are made, turn enough. Three issues need to be looked at by the committee. out to be utterly without reason. The first is the reasons for the war. The hon. Member There was no better example of that than the words for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes), the Chairman of the that fell from the Prime Minister’s mouth when he Foreign Affairs Committee, wants to take the inquiry announced the setting up of the committee. He said much further back in time, and there is an argument for that the committee was to be set up in order that we that, but I have to say that the number of people whom should learn the mistakes and benefit from learning the he wanted to be called might mean that it went on for mistakes that were made, and that they should not be another 15 years, and I do not think that we want to go made again—apparently wise in itself and, in the context down that road. That is a little caveat. The political of what the Committee must consider and decide, utterly reasons for the war are critical and need to be looked at. without meaning. That is why we need politicians on the committee. The central issue for the committee must be whether The second issue that needs to be considered is the the House and, through it, the British people were military, its equipment, and whether there were sufficient misled and deceived into support for an illegal war. resources for the task. Without a member of the military, That is the central issue. There are other tangential and or even someone who was recently in the military, it will peripheral issues that need to be considered. I also be impossible to reach a proper conclusion. Witnesses would like to know about the aftermath. I would very are not good enough; we need some interpretation on much like to know about the role of Halliburton and that committee. That is why a military person or ex-military other companies in the so-called reconstruction of Iraq. person should be on it. I would like to know many of the things that have 843 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 844

[Mr. Robert Marshall-Andrews] intelligence in the dossiers and the information that was given to the House. The frustration that his committee perplexed the House as to what has happened since the obviously felt was manifest in what he said in the House war, but the central issue for those who were here and of Lords in an extraordinary departure from normal voted or did not vote for the war and took that awesome protocol, when he also said that the inquiry must be responsibility is whether the House at the time was held in public in order to deal with the issues. deliberately misled into an illegal war. In a sense, Lord Butler has no one but himself to In that essential question two things stand out above blame because the Butler report was written in mandarin—a all and must be discerned. The first centres on the language in which Robin Butler is fluent and of which so-called Downing street memorandum in July 2002, some of us have a passing knowledge, but it is a foreign many months before the war began. It is a clear minute, language to the fourth estate. So, of course, the Butler and it shows that our man—Q—who was at the time in report was taken as a vindication for what it most Washington, , reported to the then certainly was not—that is, the political reasons and the Prime Minister in these terms: basis for war. “Bush wanted to remove Saddam through military action May I have my three ha’p’orth of where all this sits in justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the the events of the past weeks that have affected the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” House? One of the problems that lies behind the expenses That was the clearest possible statement, which was debate is not that it has thrown up serious matters—it echoed in the House almost exactly word for word, undoubtedly has—which require investigation and answer. although he did not know of the minute, by Robin It has also been responsible for a wave of matters that Cook at the time that he made his resignation speech—that are in themselves trivial—bath plugs, paperclips, and what was happening was that the facts were being fixed the like. What is the reason for that? One reason, around policy. undoubtedly, is to portray this House in a Lilliputian light: to trivialise its very existence. That is it. If we That is the first thing that requires the Prime Minister allow that to happen, we deserve to be portrayed as a of the day to go before the committee on oath and Lilliputian assembly, unable to control our own destiny. without immunity in order to be cross-examined about that, because he came to the House almost immediately It is we who were misled, many of us believe, in the afterwards and not a word of that reached the ears of preparation for the Iraq war. It was this House that was those who were listening to him and were deciding on misled. the issue of war. It is not the only internal memorandum, but it needs to be answered. Mr. Winnick indicated dissent. The second matter is the legal advice that was given to Cabinet, to the House and to the House of Lords. On Mr. Marshall-Andrews: My good and hon. Friend 7 March, the Attorney-General produced an opinion shakes his head when I say that, but let us have an that has now, like drawing teeth, been made public. inquiry to find out, and then, at least, something that That opinion was hedged with doubt throughout on has passed between he and I will be laid to rest. It is we whether the war was legal. Any lawyer reading it would who were misled, if we were misled, and it is to us that read both between and on the lines that the Attorney- the inquiry must answer and it is to us to set the terms General had the gravest possible reservations about the of reference of that committee. The terms of reference legality of war without a United Nations resolution. are not in themselves a matter of deep jurisprudence, Seven days later a completely different opinion was because they are perfectly simple: the inquiry should be given to Cabinet and subsequently was given in the open; on oath and without immunity. What is more, House of Lords. those against whom criticism or indictment may be made must be warned of that fact and must be If the first opinion had been made public at the time, represented—yes—when they give evidence before the it is highly unlikely, in my view—we have one distinguished committee. member of that Cabinet in the Chamber, and she will be able to tell us herself—that that Cabinet universally None of that is difficult to understand; it was all would have voted for war in those circumstances. That enshrined in the committees that were set up under is the second matter that requires investigation. Lord Salmon and The Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Neither of these matters requires phalanxes of lawyers. Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) pointed out, was the point Neither affects national security in their investigation. at which we divested ourselves of such authority. Now, Both are absolutely central. They can be dealt with we must retain it and we must regain it. That is one without months of preparation, on oath and in public. reason why, if the House divides, I shall be on the There is no lesson to be learned here. The lesson of Opposition side, not because I wish to vote with the whether or not to mislead the House is a lesson very Tories, but because I wish to vote for—for—an inquiry quickly learned, and the answer is simple: do not mislead in the terms that we require it. the House when dealing with the intelligence and the background to war. That is what we need to decide—not the lessons for tomorrow, but the facts of the past. 3.11 pm The mistakes that were made have already been visited, Sir Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife) (LD): Not of course, by Lord Butler and his committee, but he was for the first time, I find myself in complete agreement constrained. Those who read the Butler report can feel with the hon. and learned Member for Medway the frustration that comes out of those pages that he (Mr. Marshall-Andrews). I believe that the decision to was constrained in his brief by looking only at the join the United States in an illegal war against Iraq was intelligence, and not at the use that was made of that based upon a flawed premise and has done catastrophic 845 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 846 damage to British interests. That may well disqualify me legality of what he was being asked to do? Was the from membership of a committee of investigation, but Cabinet advised that the intelligence assessment was it most certainly does not prevent me from passing that war against Iraq would increase the likelihood of judgment on the form of that committee and its terrorist attacks in the United Kingdom? If not, why composition. not? Was the Cabinet informed that the 45-minute The Government have been partially saved from claim related only to battlefield nuclear weapons? themselves by Sir John Chilcot, by General Sir Mike What do those questions have in common? None Jackson and by the many people who have publicly said raises an issue of intelligence sensitivity. They can all be that they accepted and, indeed, wished that proceedings asked and they can all be answered in public, and they in which they might feature should be in public. This should be so. evening, Parliament can save the Government further by passing the motion that stands in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, because the responsibility 3.17 pm for the establishment of the inquiry should rest with Paul Flynn (Newport, West) (Lab): The main reason this House. Anything else is a dereliction of our duty. for my vote tonight will be based on whether Parliament There are no precise terms of reference. That issue is going to assert itself in this matter. I was very struck has been somehow brushed aside. How will we test the by the speech by the right hon. Member for Chingford committee’s success unless we test its conclusions against and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith), the former the terms of reference? There are no members with Leader of the Opposition, on that point, but I disagreed military experience. Who understands the pressures of with the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington command when sending 40,000 young men and women and Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), who said that it is a into the middle east—with the prospect at least of matter for the Government to decide. It is not; it is for casualties—at the same time as following the established Parliament to decide. We have allowed our powers to be principle that one takes one’s instructions from one’s usurped by successive Governments. political masters? No one does, other than someone As a Government Member, I feel embarrassed by the who has had to discharge those responsibilities. bungled way in which the inquiry has been launched; I Who understands the political responsibility other cannot think of a worse way in which to handle a than someone who has been associated with a decision matter of such sensitivity and importance. The last time to deploy British forces in circumstances where they that I spoke in a debate about Iraq, I took up my may lose their lives or be injured? Assessors are no 10 minutes to recite the names of the 179 people who substitute for this reason: assessors advise; they do not have fallen, and they are the main reason why we need decide or take upon themselves the responsibility for this inquiry and why their loved ones are crying out for the decisions that are made. Parliament tonight should closure. There are, in the main, two groups: those who assert itself; it should assert itself to own the process; believe that their relatives died in a noble cause and and it should set the conditions for the inquiry. They possibly resent the idea of it all being churned up again; should include, in order to put aside any questions of and a great group—possibly a majority—who are uncertainty, a specific power to compel witnesses to tormented by the idea that their loved ones died in vain, attend and to put them on oath. and that there was no reason for us to be involved in There is now no dispute but that the most sensitive that war. material touching on intelligence cannot be heard in The Public Administration Committee had those people public. However, we should have a presumption that in mind when we put up the idea, which I wish the everything will be heard in public unless the national Government would consider, of a two-tier inquiry. Yes, interest demands it. Government embarrassment and we could look at all the historical issues, as my hon. national interest are not synonymous with each other; Friend the Member for Ilford, South (Mike Gapes), the they are wholly separate and distinct. Chairman of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs I shall set out some questions that I hope the inquiry suggested, but that inquiry, like the Saville inquiry, will address. What was the then Prime Minister’s motive would go on for many years. It is not our job to do the in establishing a policy of standing steadfastly by the work of the historians of the future; our job is to Bush Administration? Did the Cabinet agree with that answer the question of whether we, in this House, were policy? Did the Cabinet ever discuss that policy? Is it deceived when we took our decision in March 2003. It the case that by July 2002 at a meeting in Downing was an extraordinary decision, perhaps the most important street, the minutes of which have been leaked, as it of our political lives. For the first time ever, Parliament happens to , Mr. Blair was committed was deciding on whether we went to war. Every one of to military action along with the United States? Is it the us who was a Member at the time takes the responsibility case that by that meeting Mr. Blair was committed to for that decision and its consequences, which included regime change? the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. When did the Cabinet first discuss military action? Our responsibility was not about whether the war When did the Cabinet first discuss regime change? And would have taken place anyway; we know about the on how many occasions thereafter did it discuss either feeling in America, which was deluded by the neo-cons, or both implications of Government policy? Why did the religious zealots and the project for a new American the Cabinet not see the Attorney-General’s full opinion century. There was an idea that the country would rule of 7 March 2003, before military action commenced? the world for the foreseeable future and have a series of Who took the decision that the Cabinet should see only multiple wars, which were described in the document the one-page answer to a question no doubt placed by outlining that project. There was talk of the American arrangement in the other place? Why did the Chief of army being the new cavalry, of boundaries that stretched the Defence Staff insist on specific legal advice on the to the great wall of China. It all seems such a fantasy 847 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 848

[Paul Flynn] how they are mishandling the issue now by trying to put Labour Members into an arm lock and make them now, but the Iraq war was planned on that deluded agree to something to which we do not agree. We want basis, and not in 2003—the intention was there long another look at the issue. We want a substantive motion before that. Sadly, our supine Prime Minister went before the House, another debate and a chance to along with it, and— decide; as the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green said, we decide on so little. Mr. Heath: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am very sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman in the The two worst decisions that this country has made course of his speech, but it seems extraordinary that not in my lifetime have been to do with the Suez crisis and a single departmental Minister is here during a debate the war in Iraq. However, we made an awful mistake— of such consequence. without there having been a Division on the matter—in deciding to send troops in a surge into Helmand province. Mr. Deputy Speaker: As I am sure the hon. Gentleman We had a debate on the subject, but in Westminster realises, the Chair cannot comment on that matter. Hall. At the time, only seven soldiers had been killed in There is a representative on the Treasury Bench. The Afghanistan. As a result of the surge, there was also a House will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s point. surge in casualties; now not seven but 169 soldiers have died, and the number is increasing every week as part of Paul Flynn: We all remember well the day of the vote a war that is going nowhere. itself. To their great credit, six Conservative Members During the brief debate, the futility of the decision to voted against their three-line Whip; on the Labour side, go into Helmand province was compared to that of the 139 Members voted against a very tough three-line charge of the Light Brigade. Now more soldiers have Whip. However, as has been recorded in a book by died in Helmand than died in the charge of the Light Philip Cowley, 80 other Members had already signed Brigade. Surely we need to debate that issue as early-day motions or other motions against the war, but parliamentarians. Surely we need to say that, in respect they were bullied, bamboozled and bribed into voting of future and current conflicts, Parliament should assert the other way or abstaining. If they had been told the itself. We should cry out, “For goodness’ sake, can you truth on the 45-minute threat and the deceptions in the justify this war? Can you justify a future conflict, possibly two dossiers, they almost certainly would not have led by America, against Iran or wherever else?” Obama voted with the Government. Many of them bitterly is now President of the United States, so there is hope regret their votes now. that good things will come. The man is an intellectual, Those Members, and Parliament, deserve the truth. far removed from his predecessor. I believe that he has We can get at the truth if the inquiry is divided into two great ideals and a clear vision of world events. It is tiers. The other, long inquiry into what happened for hoped that the rest of the western world will follow in years before and years afterwards can go on. We should the slipstream of the path that he is taking. also have an inquiry that focuses not on whether the war was going to take place—it was going to happen This week, we parliamentarians have heard a lot anyway—but on why Britain was a collaborator in about the weakness of our position. The decision that Bush’s war. Why were we involved? we took in March 2003 haunts many Members here now. We will make decisions in the future, but we have To his great credit, Harold Wilson kept us out of the to make them in a way that reflects the views of our . We should have used our opportunity and constituents. There is talk of this inquiry being similar voted for non-involvement in the Iraq war; if we had, to the Franks inquiry. Despite the problems of the those 179 brave British soldiers would not have lost Belgrano, that inquiry was into a war that generally their lives. The Public Administration Committee believes united the nation; the nation was generally behind the that the crucial issue of why we were involved should be Falklands war. The Iraq war, however, bitterly divided considered first. Such an inquiry could be conducted in the nation, probably as no war has in our history—no a matter of a few months. As we on the Committee previous war brought out 2 million people on to the put it, streets. “We recommend that consideration be given to splitting the inquiry into two stages: the first stage to concentrate on the British We saw a deluded Government, led by people who decision to go to war; and the second stage to consider the almost certainly had done a deal with the American broader lessons from the conflict and its aftermath.” President to go ahead with the war. As has been said, The other point, made by my hon. Friend the Member they decided to fit the facts around the policy. That was for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) this afternoon and not the position that we were in. We have only to look at the answered by a Front Bencher, is whether the issue ends two dossiers to read the exaggerations, lies and mistakes. today. Will a vote for the Government amendment be As a Parliament, we were fooled by those dossiers and interpreted as approval by Labour Members of the idea the Front-Bench speeches. The issue must be fully that the matter is over? Will it mean that we do not have investigated and illuminated, and that must happen to look at the decisions taken on the shape of the rapidly. inquiry and that we abandon our rights as parliamentarians to decide on how the inquiry should go forward? 3.28 pm I accept what Government Front Benchers have said Mr. Michael Mates (East Hampshire) (Con): I am about the element of bandwagonism on the part of the not going to follow the line of public versus private, official Opposition. They are trying to score political oath versus no oath. Those foxes have been comprehensively points, and I am reluctant to vote with them for that shot by the strength of opinion that has been expressed reason. I think, however, that I will do so because on both sides of the House. I am perfectly certain that if otherwise I would have to give full approval for how the the Government wish to survive, they will have to listen Government introduced the idea of the inquiry and for to what has been said and do something about it. 849 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 850

I have had the privilege of being part of two inquiries of the answers, because we were shown all the evidence. into Iraq, first the Intelligence and Security Committee’s We had to go into the legal aspects of the matter from inquiry and then the Butler inquiry. Both were constrained an intelligence point of view, and we reported on that. by the fact that it was our business to examine the use, However, we were constrained from reporting on them gathering and consequences of the intelligence that we other than from that point of view. I remember that got, rather than the bigger picture. However, as I shall when we asked the Attorney-General a specific question, explain, we were shown very much more than was he said, “Well, there was no intelligence aspect to that covered by those narrow parameters. The hon. and question, so I do not have to answer it.” Sir John must learned Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews) have a broad canvas to work on. is absolutely right that there was a lot of frustration I have seen advice from the Attorney-General that I about what we had seen but were unable to report on do not believe the right hon. Member for Birmingham, because of the terms of reference that we had been set. Ladywood (Clare Short) has seen, because it was not That reinforces the point about terms of reference needing shown to the Cabinet. Some of it was leaked, and all of to be properly set by the House so that Sir John Chilcot, it was given to us, but we were constrained from reporting whom I wish well and with whom I worked on the on it. That was not for reasons of national security but and before that in Northern Ireland, is because if we had tried to, someone would have said not in any way hamstrung by not being given adequate that it was none of our business. That needs to be put and full instructions and conditions under which he can right so that the Chilcot inquiry can examine all the do his job properly. matters that I have mentioned. I turn first to the military aspect of all this, which is Regime change loomed large in the arguments about probably the least complex, although obviously it is the legality of the war, as did resolution 1441. Papers very important. The operation itself was largely successful. laying everything out have flown between very senior There will be lessons to be learned, and they can all Government representatives and Ministers, which will come out. For instance, issues relating to logistics, the make certain people’s eyes water when they see them. lack of the right equipment and equipment not arriving Our inquiry saw all those things, and the Chilcot committee on time must all be thrashed out. must see them and be able to report on them. Five or six Perhaps most important and controversial of all is years on, it is not a question of national security any the reconstruction phase. I remember my noble Friend more. It is about what advice was given to Ministers and Field Marshal the Lord Inge chuntering away beside what their reaction to it was—did they accept it, or did me, as we were going through the motions in the Butler they ignore it? review, about how there had been no plan for what we One issue to consider is the resignation of a legal did when we had beaten the Iraqis and won the war, as adviser to the Foreign Office, who was not content with was obviously going to happen. the Attorney-General’s advice. That is in the public domain, but the reasons behind it are not. That may Clare Short: The military keep implying that it was explain why the FCO was largely excluded from the the fault of the humanitarian agencies that there was no latter stages of the discussions and the decision taking, reconstruction, but if the military occupy a country, most notably when Tony Blair, the Prime Minister, met they have to prevent disorder from breaking out. That is President Bush in Washington with his coterie of No. 10 a military task, and I underline that their trying to pass advisers and Sir , our ambassador the buck as though disorder were the fault of the UN or there, was excluded from the meeting. If it is not the job the Department for International Development really is of Her Majesty’s ambassador to be there to report from not good enough. the American perspective, I do not know what is, but he was not permitted to go to that meeting. I shall not Mr. Mates: That is not what I was saying. I was repeat myself, but we have seen the accounts of that saying that there was not a comprehensive plan as to meeting, whereas others who should have seen them how to handle Iraq once the war was over. That was have not. Sir John must be able to bring all that out. largely in the hands of the United States, which was Why is there no one with some legal expertise on the taking the lead in all this, and I know that some of our committee? We need that sort of expertise among its Ministers tried manfully to get the US to focus on the members, so it seems strange it is missing from those matter. All of that needs to be examined in the Chilcot people who have been chosen, although, like others, I inquiry.Our inquiry saw quite a lot about that peripherally, am in no way criticising them. but it was not actually our business. My last point is about the intelligence, political and That brings me to the point that others have forcefully machinery of government aspects that led to the way in made. Why is there not somebody with military expertise which the decisions were taken, which we were able to as a member of the inquiry? It is not good enough that report on more substantially. In fact, our comments on there are advisers, assessors or whatever we like to call that were perhaps some of our most trenchant. Perhaps them. We had an army of them behind our inquiry, but the hon. and learned Member for Medway did not get it is no good having a senior retired military commander the bit in mandarin, because we were highly critical of giving advice if he cannot put pertinent questions from the style of government that had led to no notes being his own area of expertise the moment the subject comes taken and no record being made. up. That gap in the composition of the committee ought to be filled. Mr. Marshall-Andrews: The passage to which I think I am pushed for time, because I have much to say, so I the right hon. Gentleman is referring is exactly the shall move on to the legal aspect. The right hon. and mandarin passage that I had in mind, when Lord Butler learned Member for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies said that, taking everything together, the committee was Campbell) asked a number of questions. I know most “surprised” that none of the intelligence being placed 851 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 852

[Mr. Marshall-Andrews] those Committee deliberations, has party politics played a part, other than as a joke at the periphery. There was before the Government was reflected in the statements never a vote taken in any Committee that I chaired; had being made. The word “surprised” in mandarin does there been a vote taken, I would have considered that I not mean: “Good Lord! Is that the time?” It means: “It had failed in my job. is absolutely inconceivable that anything like this could We are perfectly able to serve in a non-partisan way. happen.” More importantly, we are able to bring our political expertise to a committee that, however good and worthy Mr. Mates: I will leave the interpreter of mandarin to it might be, does not have such expertise. Nor does it draw his own conclusions. have military or legal expertise. Simply to say that it will The whole UK-US relationship must obviously be be able to get the necessary advice from the second row examined too. There are reams of papers that explain of the stalls is not good enough. The question of its and reveal how the two were interacting in that relationship membership must be revisited. and how that led to certain decisions being taken that, if they had been presented differently, might have been 3.40 pm taken differently. There were crucial reports of the key Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): If one moments in the decision-making process. First, there consensus has emerged, it is that the inquiry should be was the meeting between the Prime Minister and the far more public than private. If the right hon. Member President in Texas, at President Bush’s ranch in for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) is not on the committee, Crawford. Then there was the meeting between the there is no reason why he should not give evidence to it. Prime Minister and the President in Washington from It is quite likely that he will wish to do so. The Government which Sir Christopher Meyer was excluded. Then there have been criticised for giving an impression—more is a series of documents written by Sir , than an impression—last week that the inquiry should the Prime Minister’s adviser on overseas and foreign be held in private, and they were wrong. Surely it is all policy. Those documents are crucial to understanding to the good that they have now shifted their position. the way in which all the decisions were made. The press They stated something that Members on both sides of have speculated about them—sometimes correctly, the House considered unacceptable, but they then moved. sometimes incorrectly—and some have been leaked. That is hardly a matter for criticism. Having seen them all, I know how crucial those documents are for the Chilcot inquiry to be able to do its job Last week at business questions, I said that a committee properly. whose remit was to look into the most controversial war that we have engaged in since 1945 should obviously not Last of all, if ever there was a war in which politics—that sit in private. I am sure that many Labour Members is, in the decision to go to war, not the war itself—played said the same thing more privately. I want to see the such a major part, it was this one, given the political committee sitting far more in public, and only in exceptional decisions taken here and in the United States. As I circumstances should evidence be given privately. Those speak these words, I can hear colleagues saying, “He circumstances would have to involve security grounds. would say this, wouldn’t he?” Why are there no politicians on the committee? That point was made very well by my I would like to see a widening of the membership of right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford the committee. I doubt that that will happen, however; I Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) and the hon. and learned am not sure whether we can move the Government in Member for Medway, as well as by others, from all that direction. I am not necessarily calling for Members round the House. The reason the Prime Minister gave of Parliament to sit on the committee, but it should us was this: nevertheless have a broader membership than is proposed at the moment. I also accept the obvious statement that “the membership of the committee will consist entirely of non-partisan there should be public trust in the committee. The many public figures acknowledged to be experts and leaders…There will be no representatives of political parties from either side of people who have lost family members—sons and daughters, this House.”—[Official Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 24.] for example—in warfare in Iraq should be able to feel reassured that the committee will try to get as close to David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I the truth as possible in asking why we went to war and commend my right hon. Friend on making an astonishingly what all the consequences were. Some of the families informative speech. To reinforce his comment about blame the Government for the loss of their loved ones. politicians being involved, everything that he has described Others, however, have said publicly that they are proud is mirrored in similar failures—constitutional, structural, of what their close relatives have done, and that, too, governmental and decision-making failures—in the United should be borne in mind. States. They have come out recently because of the Having listened to today’s debate from the beginning, torture issue and how legality was bypassed, so it is I have not heard any differences in opinion from those doubly important that politicians should be involved. that were being expressed six years ago. There do not seem to have been any changes of mind. The critics at Mr. Mates: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Let the time have put forward their point of view once me finish by saying that it is rather an insult to us as again, and those of us who took a different position professional politicians to be told by a Prime Minister and supported the Government are to a large extent that we would be partisan if we took part in such an reiterating what we said then. inquiry.I had the pleasure of chairing the Select Committee The right hon. and learned Member for Devizes on Defence for six years—I was a member of it for (Mr. Ancram) said that he hoped that the inquiry would 12 years—and I chaired the Northern Ireland Committee lead to closure. I have to say that the possibility of for four years. I have also sat on the Security and closure on this issue in our lifetime—not only in my Intelligence Committee for 15 years. Never, in any of lifetime, but in that of those who are rather younger—is 853 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 854 rather remote. I said earlier that this was the most the destruction of weapons of mass destruction. In my controversial war decision in 64 years, and I find it view, that is very relevant: if the chief weapons inspector, difficult to believe that the committee of inquiry will be Dr. Blix, had issued a report stating clearly that he and able to change anyone’s mind, no matter how fair-minded, his team were satisfied that the weapons of mass destruction thorough and exhaustive it might be. Those who were in had been destroyed, there would have been no basis for favour of what occurred will remain so and the critics going to war. Yes, he wanted more time, and I am not will remain of their opinion. suggesting for a moment that he wanted military For example, when listening to my hon. and learned intervention then, but I am saying that, at the time, such Friend the Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews) a report was not forthcoming. and my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, West Saddam had a history of playing cat and mouse with (Paul Flynn) or to those who feel as strongly as they do the weapons inspectors. We know that the weapons of that the decision was wrong, it is difficult to think that mass destruction had been destroyed, but he had used they will change their mind if the committee reaches the them before the invasion of Kuwait. Let me say this view that, in all the circumstances, it was right for the about Kuwait: some Members—not those on the Government to do as they did six years ago. It is a Conservative Benches, but some of my hon. and right possibility, but it is very remote. hon. Friends—who were so much against the vote to go Mr. Mohammad Sarwar (, Central) (Lab): Is to war in 2003 were equally opposed to the liberation of my hon. Friend willing to concede that there are Members Kuwait. Although it had been authorised by the United in the House who would accept that if the information Nations Security Council, and although Saddam had available to them now had been available to them at that committed an act of blatant aggression, they opposed time, they would not have voted for the war? the military action taken in 1991. I took a very different position. Some would say that it was unfortunate that Mr. Winnick: Yes, I accept that some have changed the whole of Iraq was not liberated at the time, but most their mind, but having listened to today’s debate I of us understood the reasons why it was not. believe I am right in saying that my hon. Friend is the The accusation about regime change suggests that first Member to say that he has changed his mind about any reference to it must be derogatory. However, there the decision and the vote he made six years ago. No one are those who recognise, as I did, that Saddam ruled else has done so. Members have not crowded on to these over a terrorist regime—a totalitarian dictatorship, brutal Benches to say that they regret one way or another the and murderous—and that sanctions were not working, way that they voted. They, like me, obviously took a but were undoubtedly inflicting great damage on numerous decision at the time based on what they believed was people in Iraq. That is what the critics said at the time. right. Not only were they against military intervention; they I will not blame my vote in 2003 on the former Prime were against sanctions, which they said should be dropped. Minister. I will not say, “Well, he misled us and didn’t I had to concede that sanctions were causing great give us all the facts—it’s all his fault. If only he had hardship. The question that arises for us is how such a spoken differently, I would have voted differently.” That regime can be changed. I entirely accept that there was is not grown-up politics. We are Members of Parliament. no authorisation and no legitimacy for regime change We can make up our own mind. If we believed the unless there was justification in the form of weapons of Prime Minister of the day was giving us information mass destruction. that seemed to be wrong, we should have voted accordingly. I asked the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) whether he stood by his vote because I Mr. Mates: I was not trying to argue either for or wanted to find out whether he had changed his mind against regime change. What I was saying, and what I about how he voted. Very honestly, as one would expect think the Chilcot committee needs to consider, is that it of him, he said that he stood by his vote, as I stand by is illegal in international law. That is a fact. The question mine. It was a very frank answer. is, was it driving the policy, or was the policy driven by something else? Mr. MacNeil: I fail to see the relevance of the argument of the vote. Quite a number of us were not Members of Mr. Winnick: I do not deny that regime change is the House in 2003 and came in only in 2005. We were illegal. However, in 1979 both Cambodia and Tanzania part of the millions outside who were against the war. were liberated from the outright tyranny of the Pol Pot Does it really matter how people voted six years ago? regime and Amin. That was regime change, and I do What matters is the business before the House and the not recall any Member condemning it 30 years ago. inquiry. What happened in Kosovo was a form of regime change, Mr. Winnick: I have already said that I recognise the and was outside the authority of the Security Council. necessity for an inquiry that should be far more public My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Medway, than private. If the hon. Gentleman had been a Member who is not in the Chamber now, was strongly opposed of the House, there is no doubt, as he has just suggested, to it, but I was in favour. I urged that action be taken that he would have voted against. However, few Members against Milosevic and ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, and I have changed their mind and the vote is important—he would hardly start apologising for that now. There is a is wrong—because, as the critics would say, it was the problem over regime change, and how we can help vote in the House of Commons that legitimised our people who are suffering under tyranny and murderous military intervention. That vote was crucial. oppression. The background to the vote in 2003 was the Saddam As I said at the beginning of my speech, I doubt that regime’s refusal to give the impression that it was complying the inquiry will change anyone’s mind, but it is crucial with the United Nations Security Council resolution on for it to undertake the work that it has been given. 855 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 856

3.53 pm I believe that a proper examination of the untruths, Clare Short (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Ind Lab): In the constitutional manipulation and the outcome must the short time that is available—let me put on record lead to a re-examination of the UK’s role in the world. that I still resent the guillotining of everything, and That is a very important consequence of the inquiry believe that it is one of the reasons for the diminution of that needs to flow to the House of Commons. I do not the authority of the House of Commons—I want to advocate hostility to the United States, of course. Indeed, focus on why we need an inquiry. I shall argue that the I think that if we had spoken truthfully to the United reasons are so profound that the inquiry must take States at the time, we would have been a better friend. I place in public, the inquiry team must be strengthened—as yearn, however, for an honest appraisal of the dangers has been argued, it should contain military and legal the world and the UK face and an intelligent discussion representatives, as well as a senior politician—and witnesses of the contribution we could make, working with others, must give evidence under oath. to the establishment of a more equitable and just world order, capable of dealing with the disorder that will Some have commented that we do not need an inquiry come to us because of climate change. It is also my view because the books have been written, the documents that if we do not do better in bringing justice to the have been leaked, America has changed its policy, and middle east, the capacity of the international system to there is therefore nothing new to be said. I agree that co-operate to deal with these challenges will be broken those who have read the books and scrutinised the and weakened, with desperately serious consequences leaked documents already know the truth. Nevertheless, for all of us. it would be deeply shameful if the House of Commons never required an official inquiry, with the aim of putting We need an inquiry that forces all parties and the on record the truth of why we went to war and reflecting public to face up to the fact that we got involved in Iraq on what that says about, first, the unreliability of the because George Bush and the neo-conservatives wanted British system of government and, secondly, the obsessive to overthrow the unpopular regime of Saddam Hussein— focus on staying close to the United States of America, regime change—and establish a friendly power in Iraq, which dominates the foreign policy thinking of both so that they could relocate American bases in the middle and the official Opposition. Even the Liberal east, dominate the Gulf and have close relations with a Democrats, despite their honourable record on the war, country that contained a large proportion of the world’s are not entirely free of it. That is the explanation of the remaining oil. As has been said, all of that is laid out for error, and if we do not attend to those matters, similar all to read in the documents published by the Project for errors will be made in future. the New American Century, which many of those who I believe that because of the “nodding donkey”approach became senior figures in the Bush Administration had to American foreign policy right or wrong, the United signed up to. Kingdom’s contribution to resolving some of the complex Of course, the US expected the invasion of Iraq to be and fearsome problems of the coming decades will be popular with Iraqis and therefore thought that it would extremely limited, and I think that that humiliates us. help to stabilise the middle east. The only problem was This is an enormously profound and serious question. that international law, laid down after the second world As I believe the inquiry will show, if we went to Iraq war under the leadership of President Roosevelt and because we wanted to please President Bush—or because with the support of Prime Minister Churchill, did not Tony Blair wanted to please him—there is a danger that permit that, and thus the lying became necessary in that error will be repeated. Happily, America, after a order to do what the neo-conservatives thought to be big semi-revolution, has changed its President and right. completely changed its policy, and Britain follows along I did not know that Tony Blair had the published with the new President. I prefer the new President, of documents of the Project for the New American Century course, but we did not even have a debate or discussion drawn to his attention—they were certainly not drawn about whether we should change our policy. How to the attention of the Cabinet—but I think that he was humiliating is that? desperate to be close to George Bush and worried that Mr. Ellwood: I made an intervention earlier in which he would not be because of the closeness of his relationship I stressed the importance of the relationship between with President Clinton, and that he therefore gave his the Ministry of Defence and the Department for word early on that Britain would be with him in the International Development and mentioned that the British planned invasion of Iraq. From that, it all flows: the forces were concerned that there might be no plan exaggeration of the threat from weapons of mass involving DFID. Can the right hon. Lady confirm that destruction to give an excuse for war, because regime in March 2003, when she was responsible for that change is not legal. Department, she sent a diktat out to all the directors in The Butler report and the various leaks from our the Department advising them not to get involved and intelligence agencies have shown that the intelligence not to participate in the planning, because she thought was being fixed around the policy. Hans Blix started out the war might be illegal? believing that there were WMD in Iraq, but when he Clare Short: I cannot confirm that date, but I can found and reported that there were not—he reported to confirm that when I heard the rumour—but did not see the Security Council what he had found, and also the legal document—that the Attorney-General doubted achieved the dismantling of large numbers of ballistic the legality of the war, I warned my staff of the missiles—he was briefed against and smeared because consequences of that, which I think was entirely proper. his truthful findings were obstructing the excuse for That is part of the shame of it all, but I shall come on to war. the preparations. There were preparations that were In the matter of international law, the neo-conservatives then all junked, because of the hubris and deceit that had no concern. They repeatedly made clear their profound went into preparing for war. disrespect for the United Nations and the constraints of 857 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 858 international law. They wanted to keep the UK with Department made preparations, liaising carefully with them because the majority of US citizens said yes to the State Department, the UN and other international war in coalition, but not alone. The UK had to pretend actors. Then, just a couple of months before the planned to respect international law, and that led to the game invasion, President Bush passed responsibility for post-war that was played at the United Nations. We should all reconstruction to the Pentagon and set up the new remember that the UK ambassador to the UN, Sir Jeremy agency, the Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Greenstock, whom I like and admire enormously, gave Assistance—ORHA. All the State Department preparations a shameful undertaking on behalf of the UK when the were junked. There was no liaison with the UN or with first resolution was passed that there was no the international community. automaticity—no authority for war—without another At the time, Andrew Natsios, then head of the US resolution. However, the UK went on to argue later that Agency for International Development, said that the the first resolution gave authority for war. That was danger in post-war Iraq would be chaos, and if we deeply shameful.– sacked everyone in the Ba’ath party, no institutions I remain deeply shaken by the way in which the would function. He said that it was crucial that only the interpretation of international law was manipulated to top people went and everyone else was left in place. fit the policy. The first legal opinion, which was leaked That advice was wiped away and we got exactly what he and is now a matter of public record, was kept from the predicted. That was incredible. In the run-up to the war, Cabinet. That was a complete breach of the ministerial I thought, “This cannot happen in a nation like the code, but who enforces the code? It is the Prime Minister. US—they have Harvard, Yale and Princeton-educated The second legal opinion was concocted at the last people. We cannot make such an error.” But the hubris minute by an Attorney-General who was a crony of the was such that it was believed that the invasion would be Prime Minister, put into the Lords by the Prime Minister welcomed and that there was no need for international and made Attorney-General by the Prime Minister. co-operation. Because of the deceit that went into the purpose of the war, we got the chaos of the aftermath. Mr. Mates: I am not following the right hon. Lady in her criticisms, but if memory serves me correctly, there These are serious matters, but they are the true record were 44 meetings of the Cabinet between September of what happened, and the inquiry must bring them and when we went to war. The Attorney-General attended out. Britain must decide what sort of country it wants only two of them. Did the right hon. Lady, who was to be. Do we want to adhere to international law, or do there, find it strange that in that legal morass, the we want to junk it? Israel is junking international law in Government’s legal adviser was never there? the occupied territories. Do we want a future in which international law no longer has any authority? It would Clare Short: All the Cabinet meetings were little lead to chaos and instability. chats: they were never a proper consideration of all the options. That is terrifying, but true, and it means that Mr. Duncan Smith: I am grateful to the right hon. our political institutions are unreliable and incapable of Lady—I do not think that she will lose any time by making proper, considered decisions. taking this intervention. On one of the big questions When the Attorney-General came to Cabinet—I about the row between the State Department and the remember him coming only once, right at the end—I Pentagon and what was going on at the White House, was stunned by the opinion that he brought to the was she aware at any stage that the Government made Cabinet, but I accepted that in such a matter, the strong overtures about what was going on explicitly to Attorney-General would not bring a concocted opinion. require that a different system be put in place after the I now know that he did, and I conclude that the war in Iraq? I could never quite understand what our arrangements that we have for ensuring UK compliance influence—or lack of it—was in the whole process. We with international law are unsafe. The way in which the had a vested interest in getting it right, but somehow Attorney-General is appointed is unsafe, and our seemed not to have any view on it. I am not saying that constitutional arrangements need restructuring. That is the right hon. Lady did not, but that officially the one of the important issues to which the inquiry must Government seemed to have no view on that point at attend. that time. It is often argued that the invasion of Iraq went well and was welcomed by all, but then went wrong, and Clare Short: The answer is that because this was that what went wrong, as the hon. Member for being driven—I am running out of time—by the Prime Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood), who was previously Minister on the phone to the White House, British in the armed forces, suggested, was that no proper systems were breaking down. One part of the Government arrangements were made for post-conflict Iraq. Indeed, was giving that advice, and another was not. it is sometimes suggested that because of my doubts My final point is that because of the deceit, proper about the war, I prevented such preparations from consideration was not given to all the policy options. being made in the Department for International There were other ways of bringing down Saddam Hussein. Development, although how I could be responsible for We could have got rid of the sanctions, or indicted him US policy I am not sure. That claim is completely like we did Milosevic and let the Iraqi people help to do untrue, as a proper scrutiny of the historical record will it. None of the other options were considered. This is a demonstrate. disgrace to our history and it shows that our institutions Careful and detailed preparations—volumes of them— do not work. We need an inquiry that will lay out were made in the US State Department. Louise Fréchette, everything from which we can learn the lessons about the deputy secretary-general of the UN, also made decision making and our role in the world, so that we detailed preparations to bring together the international never ever again engage in such actions, which have left effort that would be required to rebuild Iraq. My old terrible destabilising effects on the wider middle east. 859 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 860

4.6 pm My friend the Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall- Andrews) spoke about the legal advice. Of course, we Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): I remember did not get the full legal advice until 2005, two years being here on 15 June, when the Prime Minister made after the conclusion of the war. The minutes of the his statement on Iraq. I felt angry and upset, and I told crucial Cabinet meetings of March 2003 need to be him and colleagues that a secret inquiry was not acceptable. released, but so do the notes that were also taken at Why did I say that? The previous Thursday, I attended a those meetings. I have discovered that two sets of notes seminar held under the rule with my are taken of what is said at Cabinet meetings. They are, friends for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) and for Newport, presumably, distilled into formal Cabinet minutes. We West (Paul Flynn) and other colleagues in the Public need all that information. Administration Committee. A galaxy of stars were there: Lord Hutton, Lord Butler, Geoffrey Howe, Lord It is absurd that an inquiry into our biggest military Hurd, and the Conservative academic and constitutional engagement since the second world war does not feature expert, Lord Norton—people like that. The seminar a senior military person. I was completely gobsmacked concluded and, because I know how things work, I to read that the head of the Army, General Dannatt, came across from that seminar in Portcullis House and had not even been consulted by No. 10 on the terms of tabled a question in the Table Office. My question to the reference. Prime Minister was whether he We should also encourage civil servants who feel that “will make it his policy to consult…the leaders of opposition they have something new to say to step forward, and we parties represented in the House and…the Chair of the Public should give them all the protection that they need to Administration Select Committee before announcing…the terms speak candidly and truthfully. I say that because the of reference and…the composition of an inquiry into the Iraq PAC held a sitting on leaks and whistleblowers back in war”?—[Official Report, 18 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 452-453W.] March, at which a Foreign Office diplomat, Carne Ross, I got a big raspberry a few days later, on Monday. appeared before us. He was our man at the UN for four and a half years and is an expert on the middle east and To this day, I do not know what persuaded the Prime Iraq. Talking about the experience of many people in Minister to take the line that he did. If he had consulted the civil service—in the bureaucracy—he said: with colleagues in all parts of the House, consensus “There are many other people involved who have yet to tell would have emerged and we could have gone forward. their story…There are many documents that should come to What are we trying to establish? We are not trying to light.” put Tony Blair’s head on a pikestaff. We are trying That was said by a civil servant on the edge of great to establish the truth. In the Public Administration things who resigned from the Foreign and Commonwealth Committee’s report, which Members will have read, we Office because of what he felt was mendacity on the go on to say that apart from establishing the truth, we part of the Government. want to “ensure that the executive can be held properly accountable for its Mr. Duncan Smith: I want to follow up on one point decisions and conduct in relation to Iraq.” about which the hon. Gentleman has not spoken. I and That is what we wanted. others noted earlier that the political representative on the committee is from the other place. Does he think We were trying to get consensus on the establishment that an elected Member of Parliament or two should be of a parliamentary commission of inquiry into Iraq on the committee, so that the opinion of the Chamber because we knew that, until very recently, the Government can be represented? After all, we voted on the matter. did not want to act. They did not want an inquiry into Why should someone from the other place be our Iraq—it was a radioactive issue. That is why we, as a representative? Select Committee, came forward with our proposals. No. 10 and the Government knew exactly what we were Mr. Prentice: I could not agree more about that. doing. They knew about the seminar and the meetings Indeed, my friend the Member for Cannock Chase said we were having, but despite that we got the crass statement in a letter to the Prime Minister: from the Prime Minister on that Monday. “There needs to be a process of engagement on the inquiry’s What did we want as a Select Committee? In our purpose, terms of reference, membership and procedures…it report, we called for a debate and a free vote in the would be appropriate for the Government to seek formal House of Commons on the proposal for an inquiry. I parliamentary endorsement of the inquiry’s terms of reference and membership”. will vote with the Government today if Ministers can tell me that there will be an early occasion when they We need that, because that would cover the point about put a substantive motion before the House on the senior parliamentarians having an input. It would also inquiry’s terms of reference. That motion should set out deal with the point that I and others have made about its membership, composition and so on—in other words, the committee having a place for a military person. all the matters of concern that have been raised in the That person should not be below the salt as an assessor, debate. If I get that assurance in an hour or two’s time but a full member of the inquiry team. from the Front Bench, then I will vote for the Government: One final thing—or have I had a final thing already? if not, I will vote with the Conservatives. (Islington, North) (Lab): There are I have one or two other points to make that have been no limits in Parliament to final things. prompted by what has come up in the debate. Clearly, we need evidence to be given on oath. Until the Member Mr. Prentice: My views will not be changed by the for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) spoke, I Minister’s big, broad smile, but I want to say something did not appreciate that the inquiry as currently constituted about documents. I attended a meeting a week or 10 days may not have the power to require people coming ago that was addressed by the human before it to swear an oath. That needs to be cleared up. rights QC. He spoke about a note from President Bush 861 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 862 to the former Prime Minister Tony Blair on 31 January movement, but also particularly in the United States? 2003. President Bush allegedly said, “Put up the planes; For all his support for the war in Afghanistan, President fly the planes over Iraq; paint them in UN colours, and Obama basically owes his position to his opposition to when Saddam shoots them down, that’s the pretext to the Iraq war and his initial victories in the Democrat go to war.” I do not know whether that is fantasy land, primaries because of that opposition. American politics or even whether that document really exists, but the has also been delineated by Iraq. inquiry should be able to subpoena all the documents, if that is the expression, it needs to get to the truth. Mr. Galloway: Indeed. There has been a holding to Let me restate my central point. I want the Government account in the United States of America—there has to concede and to bring forward a substantive motion been catharsis. Those responsible for the disaster have allowing the House to consider the new terms of reference been cleansed away and there is the sense of a new and the composition or membership—call it what you beginning. will—so that the House can vote on it and give the Of course, we do not have that option. Some of us inquiry its parliamentary imprimatur. If I do not get recall only too vividly the iron-clad consensus between that, I will vote with the Conservatives. those on the two Front Benches in the run-up to the war. The then Leader of the Opposition differed from 4.16 pm the Government only in that he wanted the war faster, Mr. (Bethnal Green and Bow) and more brutal and overwhelming. We have no chance (Respect): With respect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, 10 minutes for that catharsis, because either Tweedledee or Tweedledum of most Back Benchers is more than enough, but there will rule the country when the general election comes. are odd occasions when it is not enough. The speeches That is a disaster for us, and it makes the inquiry much of the right hon. Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) more important than it might otherwise have been. who has vast experience and of the right hon. Member That is why we ought to have a real inquiry. for Birmingham, Ladywood (Clare Short) should have I am a founder and the vice-president of the Stop the been extended. They were extremely important to this War coalition, which organised the demonstrations of debate and this 10-minute rule should give you, Mr. Deputy millions that have been referred to this evening, so the Speaker, the flexibility to allow a moment or two for House must forgive me if I am a little more rebarbative important, decisive speeches in a debate. I have now than some of the politesse we have heard today. I seek given away 30 seconds of my time, but I thought that to speak for the millions who were on the streets of this that was worth saying. country. The Government just do not get it. That is evident People have queued up to say they have nothing again this evening from the languid complacency with against the membership of the inquiry. Well, I do. The which the Foreign Secretary spoke, which led the hon. more the Foreign Secretary adumbrated their distinguished Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) to say that he characteristics, the more I saw a parade of establishment felt that the Foreign Secretary’s heart was not in it. It is flunkeys—Sir Humphrey This and Sir Humphrey That. evident from the period of time when there was not a Those who are not just grey blurs are in fact partisans. single Government Member on the Front Bench and Freedman is one of the authors of the intellectual case from the body language of the two Ministers who now for the war. He and his neo-con friends were the people are on it when the right hon. Member for Birmingham, who made the then Prime Minister’s bullets for the war. Ladywood was speaking. They were sneering and nudging, Gilbert hailed Bush and Blair—imagine, they are already utterly oblivious to the fact that her speech will be two of the most discredited political figures in the listened to and read by millions tomorrow and given world, and history has not even started on them yet—as real weight, while what they have to say will be treated, akin to Roosevelt and Churchill. Yet both Freedman if they are lucky, with derision. and Gilbert are among the very small group of people The Prime Minister’s initial prospectus for this inquiry who will conduct the inquiry. proved that the Government just do not get it. When, in 2005, I was elected as the first left-of-Labour Member Why can we not have real politicians on the inquiry? of Parliament in England for 60 years, I was elected Why cannot the hon. and learned Member for Medway because of Iraq. The Labour party’s membership has (Mr. Marshall-Andrews)—forensic, learned, legal—be halved because of Iraq. Millions of Labour voters have on the committee? Why cannot the right hon. and left them and new parties—some of the left and some of learned Member for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies the right—are proliferating and strengthening, in substantial Campbell), with all his experience, skills and training, part because of Iraq. That has happened not directly, be on the inquiry? Why cannot the former Foreign but indirectly because of the poison that the Iraq question Secretary Lord Hurd, with his vast knowledge of has caused to pulse around the British body politic. The international affairs, be on the inquiry? Why should lack of credibility of the British political class has also Parliament be represented by a woman I have never been the result of Iraq. heard of? I have sat in this place for 23 years, and I doubt whether anybody here, other than those with the The Government still do not get it. If they did, they privilege of knowing the lady personally, could tell us would have used this opportunity for a grand catharsis, anything that she has ever done. How can she represent to turn the page and finally leave behind and Parliament in this great debate—this great inquiry? call for the kind of inquiry that has been repeatedly There are no military men, no men or women of legal demanded in the House this evening. eminence and no politicians except a non-political peeress Jeremy Corbyn: Will the hon. Member also concede of whom none of us has heard. This inquiry team has that it is not just British politics that has been changed no credibility out there among the public. and shaped by Iraq, as the issue has had an effect across Europe, all over the world in respect of the anti-war Mr. Gordon Prentice rose— 863 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 864

Mr. Galloway: I cannot give way, because I shall lose We can faff about here in our parliamentary way, the time—I have no extra time. I am sorry. The House with fey exchanges between those on the two Front must forgive me; I am one of those who is worth more Benches, but that will not cut any mustard out there— than 10 minutes. I cannot give way—[HON.MEMBERS: [Interruption.] It will not cut any mustard with the “You can.”] In that case, I apologise. I give way. people who were against the war in their overwhelming number in constituencies such as that of the hon. Member Mr. Prentice: I think it is completely out of order for for West Ham (Lyn Brown), who is speaking from a the hon. Gentleman to traduce Baroness Prashar from sedentary position. They will be looking to see whether the other place. She was a distinguished civil service she votes to continue the cover-up, or votes for the kind commissioner. Just because he has not heard of her of candour that will be required to return credibility to does not mean that colleagues elsewhere have not. the House and our political system. This does not cut any ice with the millions of people who used to vote Mr. Galloway: Quite so. A distinguished civil servant, Labour but can now hardly think of themselves doing just as Mr. or Lord Chilcot, Sir Chilcot or whatever he so again, even when the alternative is the rancid hypocrisy is called, is a distinguished former . of Conservative Front Benchers. That is the point. How very British. How very “Yes Minister”. How very Sir Humphrey. This has to be a 4.28 pm real inquiry, of the kind the Americans would hold—with forensic experts on it who can root out the truth. Mr. Mohammad Sarwar (Glasgow, Central) (Lab): I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in this Some of the stuff we have heard this evening has important debate, which is of great interest to my been almost laughable. The Foreign Secretary said that Glasgow constituents, the British public and the wider he cannot put a percentage on which parts will be in world. public and which in private. Well, given how loth most people in the country are to believe anything the I remember that the House was told that Saddam Government say, that ought to be a significant warning Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and that he signal. They say that Chilcot can look at the scope for could launch nuclear missiles at 45 minutes’ notice. We making people take oaths, but without oaths the whole were also told that he had links with al-Qaeda, but we thing is meaningless. Tony Blair is right that he answers now know that the only link was that al-Qaeda tried to questions on Iraq all the time. It is the truthfulness of kill him. We were given those reasons for going to war, the answers that is the problem, not the fact that he has but what we have learned since then has proved our the brass neck to answer. His problem is the punishment fears and concerns right. that he would have to face in this life if he answered I remember attending an anti-war rally in Glasgow questions untruthfully under oath. This is not worth the that was one of the biggest rallies in the history of paper it is not written on unless there are legally enforceable Scotland; 70,000 people participated in it, and they powers to subpoena, to bring witnesses and documents, were all angry. They all felt that the war was unnecessary, and to force people giving evidence to do so under oath. unjustified and probably illegal. I also saw more than The reality is that some of us smell a crime in this 1 million people marching on the streets of London, whole affair. That it was a blunder is now conventional opposing the war. The inquiry must answer the question: wisdom, although one or two almost extinct volcanoes why did the British public better understand the crisis on the new Labour Benches are still prepared to chunter and get it right, while our Government got it so wrong, about how proud they are of an enterprise that killed a despite having access to both UK and US intelligence million people, that killed hundreds and maimed thousands services reports, on top of several UN reports, including of our own people, that radicalised and fanaticised the investigation by the respected Hans Blix? hundreds of millions of Muslims throughout the world, The inquiry must help to answer the unanswered and that caused fanaticism to come to our very own questions raised during the years of the war. It must be country and harm innocent people in London, including an inquiry unlike any conducted before, with full access in my constituency. Although a few semi-extinct volcanoes to all Government papers and the ability to call any are prepared to identify themselves with what they did, witness. Crucially, it should be fully independent of the that this was a blunder is a conventional wisdom that is Government, and its remit should cover more than just shared if not in this building, then among the vast the period of conflict; it should also cover the periods majority of the population as a whole. that led up to it and followed on from it. I welcome the Some of us say, to reverse Talleyrand, that this was indication from the Prime Minister that that will be the worse than a blunder; it was a crime. If the inquiry is to case. mean anything, it will need to be able not only to The proposed inquiry has been severely criticised on apportion blame but, if blame is apportioned, to signal the grounds of timeliness, committee membership, and what legal avenues should be pursued. I know that we transparency. With regard to timeliness, although the do not like that sort of thing in this country—things are committee is not due to report back for a whole year, I usually swept under the carpet and finessed—but this is firmly believe that a job as large as the one that it has new territory. Events such as the expenses scandal have been tasked with is not something that we can afford to left the country seeing our House with such odium, and rush into. After all, we have already seen the terrible this country’s political class so naked, that the old ways consequences of having rushed into the war. I am sure will not do. If the inquiry finds people guilty of misleading that no one will argue that it is in the interests of the Parliament, the Queen, the armed forces and the public, House or the public that the committee should be they will have to be held accountable. There will have to hindered in any way while conducting as detailed and as be a trial, which will have to be held under oath, and accurate a report on the Iraq war as is possible, least of that will lead to punishment if there are convictions at all by having unnecessary time constraints imposed on the end—nothing less will do. its work. 865 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 866

With it initially having been proposed that the inquiry opponents of the war will have is that the inquiry will should take place entirely in private, it is the issue of again be some kind of whitewash. The inquiry must transparency that has attracted the most debate, both begin to rebuild the trust and respect of the British within and outside the House. I accept that it is difficult people in the Government, and the trust and respect to strike a balance between the interests of transparency that we once held in the international community. on the one hand and national security on the other. None the less, I share the concerns of hon. Members on 4.37 pm both sides of the House who have called for a presumption Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con): The justification in favour of proceedings of the inquiry being held in an used by Government and others since the war has been open and public manner. varied. We have heard explanations that Iraq is a much The inquiry represents a vital opportunity for the better place, and that there was a need for regime people of Britain to come to terms with one of the change, despite the fact that regime change is illegal biggest foreign policy mistakes made in their name—an under international law. But we cannot get away from opportunity that we simply cannot afford to miss. Crucially, the fact that the main justification for war at the time the inquiry should not only highlight our interests, but was weapons of mass destruction. It is therefore blatantly show a genuine interest in the well-being of the Iraqi obvious to the majority of people outside this place, if people. It is not enough to analyse what went wrong not in this place, that we went to war on a false premise. during the war, nor is it enough to report on its aftermath. There were no weapons of mass destruction. The reason The only way for so detailed an inquiry to be truly why the UN weapons inspectors could not find such beneficial to this House is for it to include recommendations weapons is that they did not exist. on the various ways that we as a nation can help to I mention that for two reasons. The inquiry should improve the living standards of ordinary Iraqi citizens. focus on how the decision was made to go to war, given The inquiry must look at the huge humanitarian problems the lack of concrete evidence as to the existence of created, such as the millions of refugees who were weapons of mass destruction. Also, I agree with other forced to flee to neighbouring countries, the terrible Members when they say that the Government simply do human rights abuses that occurred in Abu Ghraib and not get it. They have completely missed the point. the alleged cases of . I cannot Outside this place, there is a real sense of anger and of stress how important it is for all those issues to be betrayal that the country and Parliament were misled investigated as part of the inquiry. We cannot allow when it came to justifying, at the time, the case for war. them to overshadow all the good that has been done in That sense of betrayal and anger has been reinforced by Iraq with regard to humanitarian assistance, infrastructure what is now, subsequently, seen as the enormity of the and economic projects, and, most importantly, democratic folly. government for its people. There can be no doubt that Iraq was the biggest I welcome the debate today brought by the Opposition, foreign policy disaster since Suez. It was flawed in but they should also be asking serious questions of conception, execution and legacy; it brought about the themselves. Although I recognise that it was a Labour death and/or displacement of hundreds of thousands of Government who took us into war, let us be under no people in Iraq; it radicalised parts of the Muslim world illusion that while 139 Labour MPs opposed the war, against us to the extent that it has increased the risk of the Tories almost unanimously supported it. The Leader terrorism against residents of this country; and it brought of the Opposition has already stated that, even knowing about, within Iraq, the penetration of al-Qaeda, which what he knows today, he would still have gone to war had not been a presence there prior to the invasion. The with Iraq. The motion alone will not hide their complicity west has suffered an historic loss of political and moral in the conflict. prestige, not just through the invasion, but through The inquiry must also look into the so-called special such issues as Abu Ghraib, which has not helped our relationship between the UK Government and the Bush cause. Administration—a relationship that made us look like Last but not least, the enormity of the suffering that we were blindly following Bush into a conflict on which the death or injury of so many of our troops has caused he had already made up his mind. My right hon. Friend is now clearly focused in people’s minds. The troops did the Secretary of State for Justice once said on the issue everything that was expected of them; my hope—our of terrorism and proliferation of weapons of mass hope—is that the inquiry will explore whether Parliament destruction that our answers to these threats will determine did everything that was expected of it. It must not only the stability of the world for years to come, and he was find the truth, but be seen to find the truth. That is why right. Those choices have affected the world and will no I, for one, believe that only a fully public inquiry will doubt continue to do so, as this war will be remembered purge that anger and sense of betrayal, which is so by all as having been waged without just cause, against keenly felt outside this place and in this Chamber. the wishes of the international community, particularly I believe that there cannot be any private sessions. the Muslim world. History shows that sessions in secret do not necessarily There is no doubt that one of the consequences of reveal the truth; difficult questions do not get answered. going to war is an increased risk of terrorism, the effects A clear example is the 45-minute claim. At the time, the of which we have already seen in our country with the then Prime Minister made great play of the fact that 7/7 bombings. The inquiry must help to break the our forces were within 45 minutes’ striking reach of propaganda used by radical groups to incite hatred chemical weapons. We still do not know to this day how against Britain and British people. that claim was inserted in the dossier itself, but we do The inquiry must be an opportunity for the Government know that the intelligence services did not think that the to show that they recognise their mistakes, that they are evidence and intelligence warranted the claim’s inclusion willing to apologise for them and, most importantly, in the draft dossiers leading up to the first official draft that they have learned the lessons. The fear that many dossier of 10 September 2002, when it was included. 867 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 868

[Mr. John Baron] We all know that war should be the weapon of last resort, but on this occasion it was not. Why were the We do know also that at a meeting on 9 September UN weapons inspectors not given more time? Many 2002, doctors were present, and that, subsequent believe that the decision to go to war was taken well in to it, the 45-minute claim was included in the draft advance of our vote in this place in March 2003. Many dossier. When the Foreign Affairs Committee asked papers are available—some have been alluded to in this questions in 2003, the evidence was taken in private debate—that suggest that the decision was made by and, during the course of that and subsequently, the President Bush and the then Prime Minister Tony Blair Government requested that the names of the spin doctors back in April 2002 in Crawford. be deleted—or redacted. We still do not know to this There are minutes and briefing notes for Ministers day whether it was spin doctors— with regard to that meeting, dated July 2002, that clearly make the point that the decision had been taken Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): Or spooks— and that the question was about how it would be justified to the public. The point that the then Prime Mr. Baron: Or spooks who actually upgraded the Minister was making was that he had to justify the 45-minute claim and made sure that it was an integral decision and that the WMD claim was perhaps the part of the dossier. route to take. Those documents have never been denied by the Government. Again, it all begs the question how Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab) rose— the political system and constitutional safeguards—party control, collective government, parliamentary democracy Mr. Baron: I shall take an intervention, because I itself—failed so spectacularly on that occasion. think that I get an extra minute. The other issue on which the inquiry should remain firmly focused is how the evidence was “sexed up”—to Barry Gardiner: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman use that unfortunate phrase—once the decision had and shall be as quick as I can. Does he recall that on the been taken. We must remember that previous inquiries afternoon of 10 September 2002, the , did not fundamentally address that point. The Hutton in response to that dodgy dossier, made it quite clear inquiry, for example, cleared the Government of sexing that that information had previously been in the public the evidence up because it believed that the dossier was domain through the International Institute for Strategic at all times under the control of the Joint Intelligence Studies and was not worth the paper that it was written Committee. However, all the evidence since, which we on? In the subsequent six months to March the following have had to drag from the Government—through freedom year, therefore, it did not form the case that we decided of information requests or the intervention of the upon in this Chamber on the 18th of that month. That Information Commissioner—is that spin doctors were was not the case at all. at the very heart of the drafting process. Mr. Baron: With respect, I think that the hon. Gentleman The fact that a spin produced the first full has missed the point; the point is that the intelligence draft of the dossier, one day before ’s services themselves did not think that the issue merited official draft of 10 September 2002, is evidence of that. inclusion in the dossier. At the meeting of 9 September, Scarlett himself acknowledges that he had considerable at which spin doctors were present, the decision was help from John Williams, the senior press officer at the made to upgrade the claim, despite the lack of evidence. Foreign Office at the time. Such questions need to be The strongest word that the intelligence services could answered by the inquiry. But they will not be truly bring forward was “indicates”—in other words, there answered, and the sense of betrayal cannot be purged, were “indications”. That was vastly firmed up and unless the inquiry is made fully public. included in the dossier after that meeting. However, we still do not know what happened for 4.49 pm sure, because the sitting took place in private and names Alan Simpson (, South) (Lab): I welcome were redacted. That is why I firmly believe that there the fact that there is going to be an inquiry, but I share should be no private sittings during the inquiry. If we the feeling expressed by other hon. Members that in do not know what the questions are and we get answers reality, it is not the Prime Minister who is on trial in this that are largely redacted out, that will not satisfy the debate but this House. I am quite happy to acknowledge public anger and sense of betrayal about the war and that the terms of reference that the Prime Minister has the reasons why we went to war. If the Government are set are unnecessarily and unhelpfully restrictive, both to purge that sense of betrayal, they have to do everything on the membership and make-up of the inquiry team that they can to put the sittings into the public domain. and on its remit. However, it will be down to this House Even written parliamentary questions to the Cabinet to determine whether we collectively are willing to run Office about who was responsible for including the with something that, at the end of the day, will only add 45-minute claim met a blank refusal. We want to know to the discredit and disbelief among the general public the answers, because the claim was an integral part of about the standing of the House. It is we collectively the case for war at the time. who are on trial, and I hope that Members will think There are two key questions that the inquiry needs to carefully about that when they decide how to vote on answer about how the decision to go to war was made. the motion. The first is about how the entire political structure—the My own belief is that the terms of reference of the system, the constitutional arrangements—failed to check inquiry are both too narrow and too wide. I agree with the deluded ambitions, folly and hubris of one man. the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) The second is about how the evidence of weapons of that we could quite legitimately separate questions about mass destruction came to be so exaggerated. the conduct of the war once we were in Iraq from 869 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 870 questions about how we came to be involved in that war and notes of meetings should be available. Two of those in the first place. It does not help any of us for such a memorandums that have already been widely leaked wide remit to be set that it becomes impossible for the have been mentioned. My hon. and learned Friend the committee to report before the next general election. It Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews) referred is crucial that clarifying how we came to be involved in to the secret produced on 23 July the war in the first place is the central issue under 2002 by David Manning and , the investigation. Prime Minister’s foreign policy adviser at the time. My I find it absolutely incredible that the terms of reference hon. and learned Friend cited the comments by the should have been set so that the committee is to be head of MI6 about the need to fix the facts around the precluded from either making recommendations or policy.However, I was far more interested in the comments attributing blame. It is as though there were to be an made by elected Members of this House at the meeting inquiry into the great train robbery but no one could be described in that memorandum. found guilty of it, prosecuted or sent to prison. It is The then Foreign Secretary, for instance, said: absolutely astonishing that the committee should be “It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take manacled in that way even before it starts. military action, even if the timing was not yet decided. But the case was thin.” Jeremy Corbyn: Does my hon. Friend accept that that In an attempt to be helpful, the then Defence Secretary is actually a self-defeating exercise? Unless the inquiry said that can attribute blame and point in the direction of legal “if the Prime Minister wanted UK military involvement, he liability for the war, the demands for an inquiry will not would need to decide this early.” go away. They will become stronger and stronger, and Even at that time, however, the Attorney-General said the next Parliament and the one after that will have that further inquiries. It will go on until the truth is found. “the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action”. Alan Simpson: I think that is the case, and it will confirm to the public that everything this House did not In conclusion, however, the then Prime Minister said: want to know in 2003, it does not want to know now. If “If the political context were right, people would support we set the terms of the inquiry so narrowly that it regime change. The two key issues were whether the military plan cannot carry out the rigorous forensic investigation that worked and whether we had a political strategy to give it the space to work.” is required, it will be subject to the ridicule that it deserves. For the Prime Minister, the question was not then, and perhaps never was, whether the war was legal. It was I remind the House of some of the inconvenient not then, and possibly never was, whether there were elements that were already in place in the run-up to the weapons of mass destruction. The question was: can we war in 2003. I pay tribute to many of my hon. Friends, manufacture the case for a war, in order to con the some of whom are in their places, who at that time country, the Cabinet and the Commons into endorsing formed Labour Against the War. It was to demonstrate that plan? That absence of legality and the cynical in the Chamber that there was not a consensus in the manipulation of a case for a war of choice must be the Labour party that endorsed the country being bounced focus of the inquiry’s work. into an illegal and immoral war. The second note relates to the meeting that took It was under the auspices of Labour Against the War place in the Oval Office on 31 January 2003, to which that we brought into the several the right hon. Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) of the key international players who ought to have referred. He is right to question the absence from that informed our debate. Dominique de Villepin was here, meeting of both members of Cabinet and the UK and he set out the French perspective. Scott Ritter, a ambassador to the US, because there were only three former head of the United Nations Special Commission people at that meeting from the UK side: the Prime weapons inspectors, came here and set out what the Minister, Jonathan Powell, his chief of staff, and Matthew inspectors already knew about the destruction of both Rycroft, the foreign policy aide who was the author of Iraq’s capabilities and its potential to deliver weapons the memo. However, that memo said that of mass destruction. He gave UNSCOM’s evidence to Members who were interested. Denis Halliday, the UN “the president and the prime minister acknowledged that no humanitarian co-ordinator, came and told us what a unconventional weapons had been found inside Iraq. Faced with the possibility of not finding any before the planned invasion, devastating mess we were already making in Iraq and Mr. Bush talked about several ways to provoke a confrontation, how disastrous it would be to compound that error. including a proposal to paint a United States surveillance plane in On the eve of the publication of the Government’s the colors of the United Nations in hopes of drawing fire, or dodgy dossier, those of us who had the temerity to do assassinating Mr. Hussein.” so produced a counter-dossier, which was Labour Against That is the cynical pursuit of conditions under which it the War’s case against the war in Iraq. It set out the will be possible to manufacture a case for legally going degree of international evidence available that contradicted to war when no legal basis for doing so exists. all the claims that were coming out of Downing street. The inquiry must address to what extent members of The inquiry therefore needs to address how, in the face the Cabinet were ever informed of those discussions. It of that evidence, this House could be bounced into a must address whether the Cabinet knew, for instance, war of choice. that the then Prime Minister was planning a war of A number of hon. Members have referred to the choice in Iraq nine months before it was fought; that his importance of the availability of the legal advice at objective was regime change, not the removal of weapons the time. However, it is not enough to have access to the of mass destruction; that he had agreed nine months in legal advice; it is also important that the memorandums advance to fix intelligence and facts around the Bush 871 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 872

[Alan Simpson] involve the Privy Council or a hand-picked group of people whose accountability is fundamentally to the policy; and that Britain, based on the Prime Minister’s Prime Minister. We cannot allow that mistake to happen approval, was colluding with acts of provocation or again. It was that very concentration of power that got assassination. us into this mess in the first place. Those are all illegal acts. Had we had evidence that Let us go back a century, to the time when some Saddam Hussein had been doing the same thing, it would say we moved away from a balanced constitution. would have been justification for a war against him. It The House of Lords lost its power to this House, then, would also have been justification for him to be tried as in the 20th century, this House lost its power to the a war criminal. I am not interested in the question Cabinet. Finally, the Cabinet was sidelined and power whether the House should be judged according to the was concentrated in the hands of one man. The power accusations of the Hague on the Opposition Benches. symbolised by the Mace—the royal prerogative—was Ultimately, I have always argued that The Hague in the placed in the hands of one man and a small cabal of Netherlands should be the place where these questions advisers. That was what led to the terrible tragedy of the are tried. My belief is that those who have perpetrated Iraq war, and that is what we, as a House, must now put war crimes and acted as war criminals should be tried at right. We shall do that by voting for the motion and the International Criminal Court. Those who say that insisting that this inquiry into the war has to report to we cannot do that now because it is too late to attribute us in terms that we have set. blame ignore the fact that, for example, faced with I remember when the then Prime Minister spoke at institutional acts of child abuse, the House would never that Dispatch Box on that terrible day for our democracy. accept that we could root out that abuse without punishing He referred to the UN inspectors’ reports, which contained, the abusers. We are being asked today whether we have he said, unanswered questions and the courage to do this. “29 different areas in which the inspectors have been unable to obtain information”.—[Official Report, 18 March 2003; Vol. 401, 5.1 pm c. 763.] Adam Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): He used that terrible Rumsfeldian logic. Absence of At this point in the proceedings, we begin to echo each evidence is not evidence of absence; the fact that there other, and we are doing so today across the Floor of the was no evidence of WMD did not mean that the WMD House. It might be repetitive but, at times such as this, were not there. That was sufficient reason—justification— we begin, as a House, to get to the heart of the matter. for the war. The heart of the matter is that this inquiry is not just I did not believe a word that the Prime Minister said, about the specific events leading up to the war or about but many hon. Members believed that it was not possible its aftermath. It is also about our constitution and the for a serving Prime Minister to lie to the House and to way in which we conduct our democracy. That is its the people. Because he is no longer a Member of the importance. The House has an opportunity today to House, I no longer have to fear being ejected for saying restore the proper balance of power in this country. what many people believe: we were misled and the We need to accept our share of the collective House was misled on a matter so serious—life or death, responsibility. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, peace or war. That is why it is our responsibility tonight Ladywood (Clare Short) referred to the many institutional to get to the heart of the matter, both the specifics of failings that lie at the heart of this terrible, tragic, the Iraq war and how our democracy and our machinery unnecessary war. Unfortunately, Parliament also played of government were so terribly undermined. We have to its part in that, on 18 March 2003, and it is now up to establish the truth and ensure that that never happens Parliament to play its part in making amends for that again—and yes, if as a result of that the inquiry believes mistake. We have the opportunity to do that today. that it must attribute blame, it should be free to do so if there is individual culpability, as many of us believe. Most of the Labour Members who have spoken today—indeed, most of the Labour Back Benchers who There are three key issues that the inquiry must have attended the debate—voted against the war on consider and which have been touched on by many hon. that day. I ask them to join us in voting for the motion and right hon. Members. On the motivation for the war, in the name of the official Opposition today. I speak as I believe that WMD were the pretext. As we have heard, a miner’s son from Ammanford, and I mean no personal various minutes and the Downing street memos that disrespect when I say that, on occasion, it is difficult for have emerged subsequent to the Butler inquiry suggest me to join the Conservatives in the Lobby. Today, clearly, as Wolfowitz said, that WMD were simply the however, the Opposition are doing what an Opposition bureaucratic rationale. The real reason lay elsewhere, should do: we are probing the contradictions in the and it was regime change all along. Government’s stated position. We had a new Prime On legality, the contribution made by the right hon. Minister who said that he wanted to restore the proper Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) was fascinating balance of power between Parliament and the Executive, and it chimes with what Philippe Sands said in his but does anyone seriously believe that he would have book, “Lawless World”: the Butler inquiry saw rowed back so fast and so furiously if the Opposition correspondence between Ministers that the Cabinet never had not tabled this motion on the openness of the saw and which raised serious doubts about the legality inquiry? of the war, and indeed shared some doubts that Colin Today, we have to push the Prime Minister even Powell had about its legality. further, on the key question of the terms of reference. We now know that the legal advisers in the Foreign The line of accountability on this issue, which is a stain Ministry of the Dutch Government believed that on our democracy, has to lie through Parliament to the “the Netherlands would lose any case brought before the International people, who are the ultimate arbiters. It should not Court of Justice”. 873 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 874

Interestingly, written on that memorandum were the 5.11 pm words: Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): In March “Bury it well in the archives for future generations.” last year, on another occasion when we debated the Our memorandums will not be buried. We owe it to need for an inquiry on Iraq, the Foreign Secretary future generations to ensure that this does not happen expressed surprise at my reservations about the credibility again. of the inquiry chaired by Lord Butler. In the speech that Will there be prima facie evidence? Will the inquiry I made later in the debate I set out my concerns, which I conclude that there is evidence that the war was indeed will not repeat now. unlawful? We must remember that in November, Lord When that inquiry was set up, we already knew of Bingham, former Lord Chief Justice and senior Law Lord Butler’s form from his evidence to the Scott inquiry. Lord of the United Kingdom, said that the Attorney- When asked about the less than full information being General’s advice to the British Government contained provided in parliamentary answers, he said: “no hard evidence”, “You have to be selective about the facts.” that Iraq had defied UN resolutions Commenting to the inquiry on other parliamentary “in a manner justifying resort to force” answers, he added: and that the invasion—the Iraq war—was “It was an accurate but incomplete answer. The purpose of it was to give an answer which itself was true. It did not give the full “a serious violation of international law and of the rule of law” picture. It was half an answer.” in this country as well. We must ensure that the inquiry that we set up following today’s debate gives the full answer. Barry Gardiner: Does the hon. Gentleman recall the Given the outcome of the Butler inquiry, it is appropriate words of resolution 1441, which includes the words: to consider what we know about the chair and members “Determined to secure full compliance with its decisions, of the current inquiry—especially as we heard from the Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Foreign Secretary today that, having first announced an Nations… Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material inquiry to be held in private, the Government are now breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including putting their faith in Sir John Chilcot to conduct the resolution 687”? inquiry in an acceptable manner, telling the House that Chapter VII, of course, is the only chapter of the UN the Chilcot approach meets all reasonable expectations. charter that justifies the use of force. I think that today’s debate demonstrates that that is not the case. Adam Price: That point was dealt with by the right We also learnt from the Foreign Secretary today that hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood when she Sir John Chilcot went along with the proposal for the said that there was no automaticity as a result of that inquiry to be conducted in private. In contrast, Sir John resolution and that a second resolution was required. is now saying that as much of it as possible should be The Government changed their position when they held in public. That is good, but what message does it could not get the second resolution—that is the reality convey about his objectivity and impartiality, given that of it—and they misled the House, the UN and the he was apparently happy to accept an inquiry conducted people of this country. in private? Surely it should have been perfectly obvious I believe that if the inquiry concludes—as the senior to everyone—at least those with no interest in a cover- Law Lord of the United Kingdom has concluded—that up—that that would not do. the war was indeed unlawful, the Government should By accepting such a condition, Sir John—a retired voluntarily report themselves. They should report the civil servant and as such someone who could be regarded Iraq war to the International Court of Justice for a as an establishment figure—failed to exert his independence. declaratory opinion so that we can ensure that, for the He does not seem to be the sort of person who robustly avoidance of doubt, it is established in international law evaluates evidence and arrives at careful conclusions. for future generations, and so that the hundreds of Indeed, as a member of the Butler committee, he must thousands of Iraqis and the 179 British servicemen and have gone along with the remarkable decision to support women who lost their lives will not have lost them in the Government’s claim that Iraq had sought to procure vain. We will then have established a core principle in uranium from Africa, ignoring the conclusion of the our democracy: that those who lead us cannot mislead International Atomic Energy Agency that the allegation us and expect to get away with it. was unfounded. Moreover, it did so without giving any There is a fundamental principle in the way in which reasons for disagreeing with the IAEA, and without we govern relations between the nations of this world, addressing probing questions that I and the former and it is called the law. It is time for us, as a House of Member for , Llew Smith, submitted in Commons, to undo the wrong of six years ago and vote our dossier to the inquiry. for the motion. Sometimes it is necessary to have a I am not the only person who is raising questions parliamentary insurrection. I believe that Labour Members about the selection of Sir John to chair the inquiry, as would be in tune with the best principles and traditions we heard in earlier comments from the Opposition of the Labour party if they joined the official Opposition Benches. In an article in last Sunday’s edition of The in the Lobby tonight. They may have their own reasons Observer, Professor Philippe Sands talks of the role of for doing so—many of us are mixtures of altruism and the chairman as crucial, but says “questions abound” self-interest—but we know what it is right for us as a about the choice of Sir John. He asks: House of Commons to do tonight, and that is to unite “What was it about his role in the Butler inquiry that caused behind an amendment calling for a proper inquiry that the prime minister to conclude he was suitable? Some who have deserves the respect of the people of this country. worked closely with him, including on the Butler inquiry, fear he 875 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 876

[Lynne Jones] for him. He has broken ranks, together with people like Brian Jones and David Kelly, because of a considerable concern about is not the right person. Someone who has seen him first hand what was going on. If…people of John Morrison’s calibre…break described his approach as one of ‘obvious deference to governmental ranks it is very serious.” authority’”— He also said that it was beyond belief that Mr. Morrison as is, perhaps, indicated by his acceptance of an inquiry was going because his contract was up and that he in private. Philippe Sands continues: would be surprised if pressure had not come from “This is a view I have heard repeated several times. More No. 10 after the embarrassment of the “Panorama” troubling is evidence I have seen for myself.” criticisms. A member such as John Morrison would add He then refers to the occasion when the Butler committee credibility to the Committee. took evidence from the former Attorney-General, Lord It is essential that we have an inquiry in which all Goldsmith, on 5 May 2004: shades of opinion in this House and the public can have confidence. It is supremely evident from this debate that “The uncorrected transcript shows some members of the inquiry pressing him hard. By contrast, Sir John’s spoonfed questions that is not the case. I still cannot understand why the give every impression of being designed to elicit a response from Government could not simply accept the motion in the attorney general that would demonstrate the reasonableness the name of the Leader of the Opposition. It would have of his actions and those of the government.” been a way to make progress. It is still not too late Let me now turn to the other members of the inquiry to do so. team. Sir Roderic Lyne is a former ambassador to Russia. He retired in 2004 and took up a number of 5.21 pm posts in the private sector. He was a to Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): It seems BP, which currently has major interests in Iraq. Regardless a long time since 15 February 2003. Much has changed of whether that represents a conflict of interests, it does for me in that time. I was then not an elected politician—I not help public confidence given the concern that we had not even been elected to Leeds city council, never went to war for oil. mind as a Member of Parliament. I was one of the There are also two historians on the committee. many—perhaps as many as 2 million—who marched on Sir Lawrence Freedman is a military historian and professor the streets of London in an unprecedented display of of war studies. The Scotsman reports that he previously public protest that the Government were even considering praised Tony Blair’s attempts to influence US foreign taking this country into an illegal war. I was joined by policy in the run-up to the war—attempts at influence my then girlfriend—now my wife, I am happy to say—who that proved fruitless. The other historian, Sir Martin Gilbert, was one of the many who were not political people and compared George W. Bush and Tony Blair to Roosevelt who had never protested before in their lives. She took and Churchill in an article in in 2004. to the streets because she was so concerned about what Both historians could be seen as establishment figures. might be done in her name. Another member of the committee is Baroness Usha A lot has changed since then for this House, too. We Prashar. She has a virtuous CV but, as other Members have had a general election—some Members left and have said, would it not have been more appropriate to some new faces, including me, joined. We have a new include Members of this House? Public confidence in Prime Minister—indeed, a few weeks ago, we thought the inquiry would be enhanced if its membership included that we were going to have yet another Prime Minister. at least one Member who has questioned the decision to But the reality is that, not long after that march in go to war. Some names have been mentioned in the February 2003, this House, which at the time seemed so debate; I suggest my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle immune to and out of touch with what the country felt, (Mr. Prentice), as I think he would be an excellent choice. voted to approve the invasion of Iraq. I would also like to suggest another member. John Barry Gardiner: Does the hon. Gentleman recall that Morrison was an analyst at the Ministry of Defence on 18 March 2003, the opinion polls showed that 56 per with wide experience of the British intelligence community. cent. of the population were in favour of the war? When he retired in 1999, he took up a post as the Intelligence and Security Committee’s investigator, but Greg Mulholland: The hon. Gentleman shows how he was sacked after he was interviewed, with the out of touch with the public he remains. That is also Committee’s agreement, on “Panorama” in July 2004. what the Government have achieved with their bungling In that interview he referred to the “collective raspberry” of the attempt to introduce a half-baked inquiry into that went around Whitehall when the Prime Minister Iraq. We all know that it was introduced only as a sop to stated in the UK dossier of September 2002 that Iraq’s Labour Back Benchers to try to save the Prime Minister’s weapons of mass destruction posed a serious and current political life a few weeks ago. Close scrutiny shows that, threat. John Morrison said that once again, the Prime Minister has taken his blunderbuss “the Prime Minister was going way beyond anything any professional and shot himself in both feet. analyst would have agreed.” We now have an inquiry that will not even have the The former chief of defence intelligence and former power to summon witnesses before it, and witnesses will deputy chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, not necessarily be speaking under oath. After everything Air Marshal Sir John Walker, worked with Mr. Morrison that has already come out about this sorry affair, how and has expressed concern about the non-renewal of his can the public possibly trust witnesses who are not contract. The ISC had previously described Mr. Morrison speaking under oath? The members of the inquiry team as a valuable asset to the Committee. Sir John is reported will be hand-picked by the Government from establishment as saying: figures. Yes, this House is right to be concerned that we “John Morrison is an extremely experienced and extremely will not have a say in who the members should be. We good intelligence operative. I have the highest regard and respect should be far more concerned, however, that general 877 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 878 public should find the members credible. The general That quotation comes from someone who supported public must believe that the committee is credible, or it the decision to go into war. The reality, however, is that is not even worth starting the exercise. the current Prime Minister took part in that decision. In Of course, I shall support the Opposition motion; May 2007, he said however, I have to disagree with something that the “I take my responsibility as a member of the Cabinet for the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) collective decisions that we made, and I believe that they were the said. He said that this is not about who was right and right decisions”. who was wrong. I am afraid that it is. It is time for all The reality is that millions of people in this country do those who voted for the war to admit that they were not believe that the decisions were right, but they do wrong. That is patently obvious. believe that we have the right to find out exactly why I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Central they were taken. (Mr. Sarwar), who has acknowledged that he made a The expenses scandal of the past few weeks has mistake. It would be interesting to get a list of all those brought this House into disrepute. The decision to take who voted for the war who have now had the courage to this country into an illegal and immoral war brought say that they were wrong, for whatever reason, and that the Government into disrepute. If we are to restore they regret that decision. It is certainly a decision that public confidence in the House and the Government, they should regret. we need a proper inquiry and not the half-baked one The wording of the Government amendment is that the Government are trying to get away with. We interesting. It says that we wish to need a genuine inquiry that will finally give the answers “establish the lessons to be learnt”. needed to put this sorry issue to rest and to restore Surely the main lesson is not to manipulate and misrepresent credibility in this House and this Government. intelligence to justify sending British soldiers into an The people who marched in February 2003, some of illegal war that is to be waged by America. We do not whom had never marched before, deserve a proper need an inquiry to tell us that. However, we do need an inquiry. The fallen soldiers and their families must have inquiry to tell us how and why that disastrous decision that. If we want to restore faith in our democracy, we was ever reached and to find out whether the House was must demand it. If the biggest foreign policy mistake deliberately misled. since Suez does not warrant a public inquiry, what I share the concerns that have been expressed about does? This House failed the nation in 2003. It must not extending the remit of the committee. We must consider do so again this evening. what happened afterwards, but we must first get closure for this country on why we went into the war in the first place. I echo the comments made by the hon. Member 5.31 pm for Nottingham, South (Alan Simpson), who talked about punishment. We are now talking about having a Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): I am one of one-year jail sentence for Members who abuse their those who voted for the conflict. I have told the House expenses. What punishment should we have for a Prime before that I shall deeply regret that until the day that I Minister who deliberately misled the House of Commons die. I believe that I was hoodwinked. I also think that and the British public into an illegal and immoral war? my judgments were unsound. That is a question that we should be asking as part of I remember that we all went through a crisis at the the process. We simply cannot hide from it. time, as we examined whether it was a just war. We I am sure that we have all seen of Tony Blair looked into what Thomas Aquinas said and we tried to over the past week. We still see his hand on the shoulder understand the international law, but the background of the current Prime Minister. The sad reality is that was that a British Prime Minister came to the House although George W. Bush is discredited and did not get and told us that there was an immediate and serious away with the illegal invasion of Iraq, as usual, “Teflon threat. That certainly influenced me, and perhaps I will Tony” did. The only way to change that is to get him in be able to amplify on that on another occasion. front of a public inquiry, under oath, and finally get to The House and the nation were misled, and I am the bottom of that decision. angry at having been fooled and at the way that I was If anyone doubts what I have said, the former Prime bounced into voting for the war. I am bewildered by Minister, at the same Dispatch Box from which he how anyone could consider not voting for the Opposition misled the people of this country, once said something motion before the House this evening, because it sums that was entirely untrue about me. He never had the up what must be done. It says that there should be an decency or honour to apologise for that. What hope do independent inquiry, and that there should be a resolution we have that he will ever apologise for his disastrous of the House of Commons to confirm its terms of decision? appointment and its membership. The Prime Minister There is a lot of talk about whether Tony Blair keeps going on about rejuvenating Parliament and influenced the decision to have the inquiry held in constitutional reform. That is one reason why he should private. I think that just about everyone on the Government embrace the motion, but I shall refer to another in a Benches realises that that has done them a great deal of moment. damage. Frankly, it does not matter, because Tony Blair’s legacy is that it does not matter what the truth is, The Government amendment makes me very angry. but simply how it is presented. Let me quote a supporter At last Wednesday’s Prime Minister’s Question Time, I of the war, Bruce Anderson, from The Independent on cautioned the Prime Minister that I wanted to know 22 June. He said: whether people would give evidence under oath. Until “Especially in Britain, policy towards Iraq was founded on a the past few hours, there was no great response or lie, because the Prime Minister could not admit his real…motive: interest from Members of Parliament or the press. Even regime change.” some very good Members of Parliament from all parties 879 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 880

[Andrew Mackinlay] Why am I so upset by the Government trying to spin the yarn that, somehow, evidence can be given under still did not seem to understand that no one will be able what I think they say is the equivalent of an oath? That to give evidence under oath because it is not a statutory cannot be done and the Government know it. If I am inquiry. The amendment says that the Government will wrong, let the Minister tell me where I am wrong when “consult party leaders…on the scope for taking evidence under he replies to the debate. The fact is that the oath not oath” only makes people tell the truth, but protects those who are being leaned on by superiors and other agencies. but I know, and the Prime Minister knows, that that is History would have been different if evidence had been complete nonsense. The only way to get evidence given given under oath to the Foreign Affairs Committee and, under oath is by the House passing a swift Act of I believe, to the Hutton inquiry. Parliament to facilitate an extraordinary, one-off inquiry. I regret to say this, Madam Deputy Speaker, but the I think that I am only person in the House to have given problem is the Prime Minister. The fact is that he does evidence to the Hutton inquiry. None of that evidence not understand that he does not understand. He came was given under oath, and I shall say more about that in along last week to announce the inquiry and he handed a moment. it down like tablets of stone. What he basically said is, Both Prime Minister Blair and the current Prime “We are the Government, so we decide.” That simply Minister try to claim that there have been numerous will not do. Things have moved on since last week. We inquiries on this matter, such as the ones by the Foreign were told that it was going to be a Franks-style inquiry— Affairs Committee, Butler and Hutton. Not one of quite wrongly, I think, for reasons I have explained—but those so-called “inquiries” was held under oath, and as it has now mutated into something completely different. a member of the FAC, I can say that extracting the The Prime Minister and, downwards from him, his truth was like extracting teeth from a whale. Every advisers, were panicking, so he wrote to Chilcot and obstruction was put in our way. There were redactions asked him to see what he could do about having some in the report, as was mentioned earlier. The Butler sessions in public, using what is said in their phrase to inquiry was held behind closed doors, and we do not be some “equivalent to the oath”. There is no equivalent really know what evidence it received. We can look at to the oath; there would be more value in the wolf cub’s the report, but no evidence was given under oath. promise than what they are proposing. That is the fact I have said already that the Hutton inquiry was of the matter. There is no such equivalent to the oath informal and non-statutory, albeit headed by a distinguished and the Prime Minister knows it. [Interruption.] If the judge. No evidence was given under oath to that inquiry Minister thinks I am wrong, I repeat my call for him to either, and our witness statements are covered by the explain when he replies from the Dispatch Box what 30-year rule. My humble little witness statement will this equivalent is that will have the force of law and not be seen for 30 years; neither will the witness statements criminal sanctions if it were ever to be abrogated. of the Defence Secretary at the time, the right hon. As I have said, the Prime Minister does not understand Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon), or of the then Prime that does not understand. The real test of all the stuff Minister, or of people in the security and intelligence he has been saying about rejuvenating Parliament—he services see the light of day—unless, of course, this new almost puts the blame on the rest of us for bringing inquiry is independent and appointed under the tribunals Parliament into disrepute—is whether he is prepared to of inquiry legislation. acknowledge that this Parliament has the right to decide the nature of the inquiry into why and how it was Of course, the establishment dare not do that, because misled on the Iraq war. I am buttressed in my arguments all the documents seen by Hutton, Butler and the by many of the people the Prime Minister relied on to Foreign Affairs Committee would then be out in the say what a good idea a Franks-type inquiry would be. open as documents before an independent inquiry. We One after the other over the past seven days, those civil know that there has been extensive dissembling—untruths servants and members of the judiciary, for example, told by a number of parties and agencies since the Iraq have said that that idea is nonsense. A few nights ago, I war and before it. We need to expose that and find out cheered when General Mike Jackson said on “Newsnight” the motive for the dissembling, the misleading and the that evidence to the inquiry must be given under oath. It downright lies in some cases. showed that the Government cannot hide the fact that Over the past few days, the Whips have come to me, some military people who have seen the conflict and saying that they do not want a Saville-type inquiry, as seen the evidence knew what was going on. They say that one went on a long time and cost a lot of money. this must be an independent inquiry and that evidence Actually, I do not want a Saville-type inquiry and I am must be given under oath. Why does the Minister not not advocating such an inquiry, as it is not necessary. understand that? Why does his boss the Prime Minister The Saville inquiry related to one traumatic and heart- not understand that? rending incident, but in terms of the volume and level It is time the Minister went behind the Chair and of deceit, the Iraq war is much bigger than the awful phoned the Prime Minister to tell him to accept the events in Londonderry a quarter of a century ago—I motion. If the Prime Minister does not do so, he may am not minimising what happened there, of course. win the vote—I am not certain—but he will certainly Saville’s was a judicial inquiry, at which people had to lose the debate. The arguments for an independent give evidence under oath, and the same was true of the inquiry will go on and on and on until one is conceded. Lawrence inquiry. If I may go back in history, gave evidence under oath at the Gallipoli 5.40 pm inquiry. Although that was a long time ago, it is the sort Mr. Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): of inquiry that is required to deal with the Iraq war I have listened awestruck and impressed to the contributions today. made to the House today. I was not a Member of the 881 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 882

House until 2005, and it is humbling to listen to the that the inquiry must follow. That is wrong and does not sincerity, passion and candour of those who lived through do justice to the complexity and gravity of the circumstances the experience of having to vote in the House on such a of the Iraq war because many of us might disagree weighty and solemn a matter as sending our country to about what central questions should be the focus of Sir war. I have not had that responsibility, so it is with some John Chilcot’s terms of reference. We cannot leave it to trepidation but, I hope, a degree of humility that I offer a bunch of civil servants, however distinguished they my remarks about the motion on the inquiry that faces might be, to decide the fundamental questions to address. the House. The hon. and learned Member for Medway I intended to confine my remarks to the structure, (Mr. Marshall-Andrews) defined the central question as nature, procedure and terms of reference of the inquiry, he saw it: how the House came to be deceived by a series and not to venture into the substantive aspects of the of exaggerations and distortions. However, others might question relating to the merits of the war in Iraq, but see the inquiry’s central question as military unpreparedness inevitably the two are connected. Nobody can deny that and the Government sending our troops into war ill- the events and circumstances of the Iraq war were of equipped—and in many cases unequipped—for the kinds the greatest magnitude in the history of our nation—far of warfare with which they had to contend. They are greater, I submit, than the events and circumstances of not the only considerations—others might see the aftermath the Falklands war. of the war as the central question—but this House One of the reasons I suggest the Iraq war is of greater ought to decide the central questions for the inquiry magnitude is that it presents itself as a much greater and and define the terms of reference. It is only through the more complex series of questions and problems for the democratic process of debate in the House about the House and for history. It presents in that way because it terms of reference that the public can have any confidence raises much more fundamental questions, including that they have been established transparently and objectively. questions of constitutional breakdown, as many Members The motion in the name of my right hon. Friend the have already said. How we came to the war includes the Leader of the Opposition says that the Government role of the Attorney-General and an analysis of how should the Attorney-General interacts with the Government of “submit proposed terms of reference…to the House on a substantive the day. It includes complex questions of law, such as motion for full debate and scrutiny.” what was known to those who were advising the No other proposition can conceivably do justice to the Government on the status of the war in international gravity of the circumstances and the solemnity of the law. It raises questions of the House and its prerogatives, occasion with which we are confronted. I urge hon. and of the accountability of the Government to the Members on both sides of the Chamber to note the House. How can the House prevent itself from being—as importance, as others have eloquently said, of the House some would say—deceived by evidence that has been taking back the right to say to the Executive, “This is exaggerated or distorted, when it cannot see the underlying our prerogative.” documents? I want to say something about the procedure. Historians The Franks inquiry certainly never had to contend are generally not especially experienced at interrogating with the question of constitutional breakdown, because live actors—I hope that that statement is pretty the Falklands war presented itself in a fairly simple uncontroversial. I have no doubt that the two historians light. There were questions about the defects in intelligence on the panel are especially good at interpreting historical and, some might say, about a defect in the Government’s documents and evidence, but I would be surprised if conduct of policy running up to the war and the invasion they had much experience of winkling out the truth by the Argentines, but what was never questioned—at from a reluctant and sometimes even self-deceived witness. least not by an overwhelming majority of the nation—was There is one forensic tool—I would say this, and I the justification for going to war in the Falklands islands declare an interest—that is guaranteed to winkle out in the first place. There was never a question of the the truth from a Minister or anybody else: cross- constitutional processes by which that war had been examination. Cross-examination by a skilled and undertaken. experienced cross-examiner is an indefeasible tool in the I recall as a young man listening to the wonderful hands of an inquiry. It is absurd—it is fantasy—to debate in 1982 in which gave a great propose that creating the conditions of secrecy will speech pledging his support and that of the Opposition somehow lead to a cosy, fireside chat in which the likes for the vindication of those little islands and their of Alastair Campbell will be induced to confide their population against the bullying of a larger nation that secret heart to the listening committee. It is only with had taken international law into its own hands and the forensic tool of cross-examination that we can hope made a mockery of it by invasion. The war we are to get the bottom of many of the complex and thorny dealing with in the inquiry raises much more fundamental issues with which the committee will be challenged. questions and will have a much stronger effect on If the Government are to have cross-examination and history than the war fought in 1982. to get to bottom of this, there has got to be an oath. It is It is precisely because of the multiplicity of aspects no use suggesting, as the Foreign Secretary appeared to that the methods the Government have chosen to set up do at one point, that an oath can somehow be administered the inquiry are so fundamentally lacking. Let me explain. informally. If an oath is to mean anything, it must have There are no terms of reference. Those we have seen, legal consequences, and the legal consequences of telling and which one can espy in the Prime Minister’s statement, a lie on oath are prosecution for perjury. If an oath is to are non-existent. They have not been debated by the House. be administered, it must be done in circumstances that They have not been subject to the to and fro—the leave no room for any doubt that telling a lie will be forensic testing and struggle—across the Floor of the visited with all the penalties of the law, namely a prosecution House to ascertain and define precisely the instructions for perjury. That is why I agree with the hon. Member 883 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 884

[Mr. Geoffrey Cox] we would look for consensus across parties, establish terms of reference, and have complete openness and for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) that the only way is transparency, because that is what we are supposed to to have an oath. The only way is to have cross-examination. be all about these days. Within 24 hours, we realised The only way is to have the inquiry in public when that it was—someone said spin, but I think that it was compelling interests of national security do not require absolute incompetence, to put it charitably. otherwise. I say again that the only way is to have an inquiry that does justice to the gravity of the war, and to Andrew Mackinlay: He doesn’t understand. have a committee that includes men or women with experience, weight and wisdom in the relevant areas of John McDonnell: It is as my hon. Friend says. I do this complicated issue. not think that the Prime Minister and others around Several hon. Members rose— him have understood the importance of the issue, in terms of clearing the decks for this Government or any Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. I advise future Government. If we cannot address the central hon. Members that the winding-up speeches will begin question of whether the House and the country were at 6.30 pm. Five Members are hoping to catch my eye; I misled by individuals, so that we can expose what went hope to be able to include everyone. Will Members on, learn the lessons and move forward, we will not please do the sums necessary? have cleaned the record of this Government, or be able, as a Government, to make such consequential decisions 5.50 pm about life and death in future. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): I shall be extremely brief, Madam Deputy Speaker. I That is why I urge the Government tonight to hang have not intervened in the debate, and did not stand up up the guns at the door of the saloon. Let us get out of to speak, because although I had put my name down to the trenches tonight and start talking about what the do so, I had to attend a funeral earlier and so missed the real needs of the country are. The real need is for introductory speeches. I did not want to intervene on honesty. To be frank, I follow what was said by the hon. others who had put their names down in advance. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Mr. Galloway). We need an inquiry that brings forward the truth, no My point follows on from that made by my hon. matter what the consequences. Many of my constituents Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay). feel that there has been a war crime; they feel that there There is an hour and 10 minutes of this debate left, and was an act of criminality involved. If there are consequences to be frank to the Government, whatever the outcome that lead to our own Nuremburg or to The Hague or of the vote tonight, the inquiry is now in disarray. If it whatever, let us at least explain to our people that we cannot command the cross-party support of the House, recognise that possibility, and we are willing to examine it will not command the support of the people outside. the issue, no matter what the consequences. Many arguments have been set out—on the lack of terms of reference, on the lack of consultation with, The subject that we are debating is, as other speakers and involvement of, the House on that, on the composition, have said, fundamental to the standing of Parliament. on the remit, and on oaths. The oath is absolutely If we are to restore credibility, this is one of the key critical. As my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle issues that we must address. (Mark Durkan) has said, the equivalent to the oath will elicit the equivalent to the truth. The whole point of the Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Further to the poignant exercise is to try to get to the truth. As my hon. Friend arguments that my hon. Friend is making and that the the Member for Thurrock says, I wonder whether, in House should consider, does he accept that some of us view of the new practices that we are trying to introduce know John Chilcot, and we know that if he is put in in Parliament, tonight could be the one occasion when a charge of deciding whether something is public or Minister contacts No. 10 and says, “The game’s up. private, depending on national security, he has an elastic What we need to do now is try to find consensus in the concept of national security? He stretches it to cover House on this important issue.” many things, and in the past has stretched it to cover up This started with a tragedy. I voted against the war many things. after one of the most heart-rending debates that we have had. It was heart-rending because at every Prime John McDonnell: In today’s debate we have gone Minister’s Question Time since then, a Prime Minister beyond the examination of the individuals appointed to has announced the names of the fallen in Iraq and conduct the inquiry. So many doubts have been expressed Afghanistan; I think that the Iraq war led to the climate across the House about the individuals who have been that enabled the Government to go into Afghanistan. selected that the Prime Minister should convene a meeting Now, we are going from tragedy to absolute farce. of the leaders of the various parties to see whether we I was at the parliamentary Labour party meeting can gain consensus about the composition. Yes, I agree only two Mondays ago. I do not often attend these days, with hon. Members who have argued that the terms of but I did on that occasion. The Prime Minister discussed reference should be determined not by the party leaders, change and learning the lessons from the European but by the House. elections. It was an excellent speech, in which he said I hope that on such a fundamental point of principle, that there would be change, we would learn lessons and this could be the one occasion when we can throw aside we would listen. When he announced, the following all past practices and stop the Whips rushing round for day, that there would be an inquiry on Iraq, I was fear of the defeat of the Government, leaning on individual absolutely heartened. I thought, “We’ve learned a lesson; Back Benchers and trying to drag them through the we’re now going to address one of the central issues that Lobby. On the principle of good governance, I hope we stained the history of this Government.” I thought that can put party politics to one side and seek a consensual 885 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 886 position across the House. As others have said, it is so of the proposition before us—constructed not by this important for people who have lost loved ones that we House, incidentally, but by the Executive on the advice arrive at the truth and at a process in which they have of Whitehall, presumably. The Government’s proposition confidence. is designed to ensure that no one can be found culpable After today’s debate, after what has happened in the and suffer the consequences of—how shall we put it?— media over the past week, and after the variations that misadvising whatever committee comes into existence. have come forward from the Prime Minister almost Perjury is an awful threat, and the consequences of daily about what the inquiry is about and how it will perjury are dramatic. A Cabinet Minister from this operate, all confidence has been lost. To restore that, we House perjured himself and went to prison. That is the need to start again. I repeat the request of my hon. jeopardy if anyone should mislead a properly founded Friend the Member for Thurrock. This is the last hour inquiry with an oath sworn on it and the prospect of that we have to restore the credibility of the House and retribution if candour is not employed before its inquisitors. give some credibility to the process of examination of That concept is terribly important. the issue of Iraq. I appeal to Ministers to withdraw the We can see how the central question of the oath is Government’s proposals. Whether by accepting the dealt with on the Order Paper, and others have adequately Opposition motion or not, the Government should say referred to it. The Government’s proposition is almost tonight that they will start again, involving all parties in derisory. Its proposers, including the Prime Minister an open and properly transparent process of arriving at and the Foreign Secretary, want a new inquiry that will have the confidence of the House and the country. “the chairman of the inquiry to consult party leaders and chairs of the relevant parliamentary committees on the scope for taking evidence”. 5.58 pm From the Order Paper, one of the central questions for Mr. Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I the Secretary of State is: what is that “scope” for taking agree with the burden of the arguments made by the an oath? Ministers must have questioned, and been hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) advised on, that central proposition, but earlier we saw and the arguments that have come from all quarters of the Foreign Secretary, in that wonderful, elegant and the House. nonchalant way, dance away from the question—all the My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge time. It was about the scope, and people should inquire, and West Devon (Mr. Cox) made a compelling case as ask around and find out. The Government do not to why he should be counsel to the inquiry. I know that know? Of course they know. Those are the deceits that his bag is full and his commitments are heavy, but he follow from propositions that are foisted upon this enunciated a principle that is at the heart of parliamentary House by the Executive on the advice of Whitehall. I democracy.This is a House of debate and of a Government have no idea what the advice in Whitehall was, but I do making reasoned arguments and, by and large, trying to not doubt that Whitehall would have asked itself the win an argument. We have seen chaos over recent question and advised the Government that the decision weeks. about whether evidence would be on oath or not had My own dilemma has been reflected by others. I also implications. voted for the war. That was against the advice of many That is why this matter is a struggle for this Chamber— friends in the defence industry, those who have some we, as elected representatives of the people, checking connections with intelligence, those who write for the and holding to account a Government. Since I voted for newspapers, and colleagues in the House and elsewhere. the war, I have noted and shared some of the emotions Yet I disregarded their advice, because I was confronted of other Members. Events have moved on, and we have with a Prime Minister who assured me that the war was had the inquiry into the circumstances of the death of necessary to the national interest. Why should I suspend Dr. Kelly. What a revelation! There were all the e-mails. my own judgment? I am normally the most critical of Who were they from? Alastair Campbell to John—now, individuals. Why was I showing deference to a proposition Sir John—Scarlett, the head of intelligence. The Prime put forward by a Prime Minister? Minister’s special adviser also said that the contents of I am old enough to remember Eden. When I was a one memorandum—the dodgy memorandum—did not boy in the combined cadet force at my school, we seem to lead to the conclusion. What conclusion? The marched when Suez happened, to show our patriotic conclusion to go to war. It was altered. We know that fervour. Within months, Eden was discredited and, from the Hutton inquiry and from the silence of the unfortunately, health meant that he left for the country Foreign Office—the dog that did not bark in the night. for a longish period. In Eden, we had a Prime Minister There are no e-mails coming from the now Lord who lied to this House, according to Edward Heath, Chancellor—the lord high panjandrum—to inquire about who in a broadcast said, “He knew he had made a lie on intelligence. There is MI6, too. What about the Ministry the Floor of the House over the events surrounding of Defence, the Department at which the former Chief Suez.” Mr. Heath was asked, “What did you do?” He Whip of the Labour party was then Secretary of State? replied, “Well, I got on with it, didn’t I?” That is what The defence intelligence unit was querying what the has happened to this House: too many of us get on with single source was. it. That is our duty: to support the Government with Here am I, having taken the word of a British Prime whom we were elected or the party that, as a consequence Minister, seeing unravel the very props with which I of our election, becomes the Government. reinforced my vote. I want to know, in a proper and full My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge inquiry, the circumstances surrounding how we went to and West Devon is in my mind, but was is not Denning war. I want to be able to reconcile in my mind the who said, “However mighty the citizen, the law is contradictions between, “I know nothing about the mightier still”? That is what is behind the construction circumstances surrounding the death of Dr. Kelly,” and, 887 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 888

[Mr. Richard Shepherd] That must be the main focus of the inquiry, but many of my constituents are concerned also about the strategy “I am responsible for all these matters.” That was the of the war and the fact that we had no exit strategy. We then Prime Minister in front of Hutton and in conversation did not really know how we would leave Iraq, and in on an aeroplane. When I asked the then Prime Minister fact there is still a lot of answering to be done about about the issue on the Floor of the House, he said, “Oh! that. We must wait until the outcome of the Hutton inquiry.” One major concern that has been expressed to me on Did Hutton answer the question? Did he reconcile the many occasions is the equipment that has been used in two seemingly contradictory statements? Not a bit of it. Iraq, or the lack of it. That is a concern for today, not I want an inquiry, as does every Member who is really just in Iraq but in the war that we are fighting in serious about the business of the House and our Afghanistan, and it must be addressed. representative function. It should explicitly look into The Hutton inquiry was held in public and reported the matters of concern affecting a matter of great public regularly throughout the time for which it was held. I policy—going to war. As the Prime Minister tolls out hope that that will be the case as and when we settle the the lives of others who have been sent to Iraq, we are terms of reference for this inquiry. There must be regular tolling our own bell. We need no servants to inquire; we reports, and certainly having to wait 12 months for the should be the dynamic in the process of establishing the first part of the report is unacceptable. If the Government appropriate form for an inquiry. cannot step back tonight and think again about how the inquiry will be set up, and especially about the 6.6 pm composition of the inquiry panel, I urge all hon. Members Mr. Dai Davies (Blaenau Gwent) (Ind): As I look to support the official Opposition’s motion. around the Chamber, I see that I am probably the junior 6.11 pm Member. Today Members have made some of the most Mr. Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con): It is powerful and incisive speeches that I have heard in the a pleasure to speak at the end of this important debate. more than three years I have been here, and that shows Right hon. and hon. Members have made some powerful the importance of the decision to go to war with Iraq. I arguments, to which I hope the Government have listened. have considered why I came to this House, and the main I wish to place on record my concern about what the reason is that I could not get 55,000 people into the outcome of the inquiry will be, because some basic Chamber. So I have come on their behalf, to express schoolboy errors have been made in Iraq that we could their views and concerns. learn from. We do not need an inquiry to understand I fully understand that the Prime Minister cannot where mistakes have been made, but we are now leaning visit supermarkets or pop down the pub, as some of us on one to tell us that. I wonder why the Government are can, to hear what constituents say on the street. But I not learning some of the lessons that could already have cannot accept the fact that the policy of the Government been put into effect in other theatres of operation. is being made by people who are not elected to the For example, we know that the justification for going House. The Government came here and made a statement to war in the first place was based on what the Americans on the Iraq inquiry, which they said would be in private, wanted to do. General Tommy Franks was told by and someone unelected then changed the mind of the President Bush to make preparations for a potential Prime Minister. That cannot be right. war in Iraq back in November 2001, when he was in We have waited six years for an inquiry. None of us, charge of the United States Central Command, having inside the House or outside it, criticised the armed just succeeded in launching the invasion in Afghanistan. forces once war was declared, and rightly so; we have We know that the evidence of weapons of mass destruction supported them and should continue to do so. However, was based on a single source, an Iraqi chemical officer the inquiry has been on the books for a considerable who went into a German refugee camp. That was never time. For the sake of a few more days, we must hold fire authorised or seconded, but it ended up being translated and allow the House to make the decision on the into the claim of the existence of tactical weapons that composition, remit and powers of the inquiry. If we do could be used in 45 minutes and possibly hit Cyprus. not, its very legitimacy will be lost. That legitimacy is Hon. Members voted on resolution 1441, which did needed to put at rest the minds of the families of those not allow the invasion of Iraq. It allowed us to return to who have been killed and injured, and for the sake of a previous resolution, resolution 678, written 11 years the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people who died earlier in 1990, to allow the use of force. Huge mistakes during the war. We must make sure that the inquiry has were made, and I hope that the inquiry will pull them the legitimacy of public debate. out. We walked blindly into a war with Iraq, which Within that debate, we understand that some things— turned out to be a massive distraction from another they should be the exception—might have to be discussed operation that had already started, in Afghanistan, and considered in private. But the vast majority of the which is still ongoing. debate must be held in public. The people of this Everybody has repeated the need to learn lessons. country have rightly expressed their anger and concern, That is the point of an inquiry, but my argument is that given how the expenses issue has blown up in the press. we know some of the lessons already, yet we are failing But I would rather that the press had a field day with a to recognise them. Once the decision to go to Iraq was public inquiry than made things up because the inquiry made, I was astonished to learn—but pleased with the was held in private. We need to be open and transparent, honesty of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, and we must achieve that through the House. Ladywood (Clare Short) for admitting it—that there Considering why we went to war is the primary was no plan by the Department for International reason for the inquiry. There is no doubt about that, Development about what to do once the war fighting and we have heard it said many times this afternoon. started. 889 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 890

The invasion took place in March 2003, and of post-conflict stabilisation operations. As we have heard, course there was huge euphoria, particularly about the DFID does not do that either. DFID does what it says liberation of Basra considering what had happened on the tin: it tackles poverty. There is therefore a huge under Saddam Hussein. I have had a discussion with void that needs to be filled if we want not only to win General Robin Brims, the commander of 1 (UK) Armoured wars, but to win the peace as well. At the moment, we Division, who said that in April 2003 he went into the are winning wars but losing the peacekeeping. Those middle of Basra when the dust had settled and knew are the lessons that we can learn without the need for an straight away that things were going to go pear-shaped. inquiry. He knew that gangs would be formed and militias I hope that the inquiry looks into what Whitehall did. created, simply because there was a massive vacuum as I would like a huge overhaul of the way in which we there was no plan. He did not know what to do except approach post-conflict operations. It is no good trying watch very sadly as the security situation deteriorated. to get soldiers to maintain a level of security when they see the demise of the infrastructure around them, with Clare Short: Just to make this clear, I have not said nobody willing to step forward and do the job. It is in that there were no plans. Detailed plans were made with that fragile window of opportunity—those few weeks the State Department, the UN and other international to months after the war fighting has finished when the agencies. The hon. Gentleman is from the military. dust settles—that we want to win hearts and minds. DFID and the humanitarian agencies cannot bring peace in an occupied territory—that is a military job. I do not honour the attempt to pass over to the humanitarian Mr. Heald: My hon. Friend is making a powerful agencies the responsibility for the chaos after the invasion. case, with which I strongly agree. Does he agree that it is vital to put in place a proper civil justice system, so that Mr. Ellwood: The right hon. Lady is actually making we do not face the sort of situation that we face in my point for me. Whose responsibility is it to make Afghanistan, where the Taliban have been left to provide peace? Is it the military’s? The military provide the the judging and resolve disputes? security on top of the hill. Something else has to happen in the village below, however, to ensure that the Mr. Ellwood: My hon. Friend makes such a valid reconstruction takes place, that the schools are built point. That is the level of detail that needs to be looked and that the electricity is turned on—all the things that at. It is not just the justice system that is important, are involved in nation building. That is not the role of however; it is the training of the police and the armed the military, although I would like it to be; rather, it was forces. Who is doing that now? Our armed forces are the responsibility of DFID. The right hon. Lady admitted doing it, because of an absence of anybody else. Let us to sending a diktat to the directors in her Department bite the bullet and recognise that our military are in the saying, “Do nothing. We’re not even sure that this war is best place to do that. Our Royal Engineers are capable legal.” I admire her consistency in the matter, but it of making the roads and rebuilding the schools and so does not help anybody in military uniform being sent forth. They are capable of showing the locals that they over the start line by this Government then to realise mean business—that they want to help and then to go that once the war fighting has stopped, we do not have a home. They do not want to hang round in a conflict plan to keep the peace. That is where things went so zone for six years and watch the security situation pear-shaped. deteriorate. By 2004, the number of civilian deaths had risen to What happened in Iraq was appalling, and I am 20,000 a year and the number of UK military deaths afraid that Whitehall should take the blame for that. As had risen to 800 a year. By 2007, the situation had the security situation deteriorated, because nobody bothered deteriorated so much that we had become part of the to try to fill the power vacuum, who came into Iraq? problem. We went from liberators to occupiers. A personal Al-Qaeda did, making its home there and making the friend of mine who was leading 2nd Battalion the Rifles job of providing security all the more tough. Those are was made to leave Basra palace with his tail between his the lessons. Do we need an inquiry? Yes, of course, it legs because he had become part of the problem. He would help; but boy, we could have learned those lessons had to return to the comfort of the air base, never to many moons ago. I am pleased to see the Secretary of participate in proper patrolling again. Why? Because we State for Defence in the Chamber now. I stress that we did not have the plan for peace. That is the big lesson to need to wake up to our capability and to what we are be learned by the Government, but we do not need an doing. The Americans have done so, but we have not. inquiry to learn it. That is the point that I am stressing. Until we do so, we will struggle to win these campaigns I am afraid that we are making exactly the same mistakes after the war fighting has finished. in Afghanistan. In the long history of British engagements, Iraq was It should not be that we spend three weeks war far from being our finest hour. That was no fault of our fighting and six years engaged in failed stabilisation. We armed forces, who can hold their heads up high. The must look at the type of warfare in which we are now blame falls squarely on Whitehall, which failed to plan involved. It is not called warfare anymore; it is counter- for peace. We cannot totally blame the Americans. I am insurgency, and we must recognise that we are not very now aware that had 15 737s on the runway good at it. General Petraeus has said that it is no longer with all the reconstruction gear and an army of civil good enough simply to defeat the enemy; we have to go servants, but Basra was our responsibility and we failed further and enable the local. Until we get that into our to make the effort to make the reconstruction work. heads, we will continue to fail as we are doing. I hope that the inquiry will exonerate our military I stress that we cannot expect the military to do that forces of mismanaging the peace. They are feeling the work: they are not trained to do it, nor are they are blame at the moment and, although they cannot say so equipped. We need a different type of equipment to do publicly, they are deeply angry about the demise of the 891 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 892

[Mr. Ellwood] were involved in ensuring that Hans Blix and Mohamed el-Baradei were not allowed back into Iraq to continue security situation, supposedly on their watch. I hope the process of inspection and disarmament that they that these blatant errors will be recognised and were so effectively carrying out at that time. acknowledged by the inquiry so that lessons can be The Prime Minister also said in a broadcast the day learned, although I am afraid that some of the errors after the vote in Parliament that this war was about are already being repeated in Afghanistan. There is a getting rid of Saddam Hussein and regime change. gaping hole in our post-conflict stabilisation capability, George Bush, on the other hand, was relatively and I hope that the inquiry will expedite a desire to straightforward in that he said it was always about fix it. regime change. They cannot have it all ways and there should have been honesty towards us in that respect. 6.21 pm I use the figures carefully, but well over 500,000 Iraqis Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I have been have died since 2003. The living standards of many are present at virtually every debate on Iraq for the past no better. Instability in many cases is far worse, and I seven years. I never thought that, seven years on we say that not as somebody who was ever an apologist for would still be debating the legality of, and responsibility or defender of the Saddam Hussein regime. Indeed, for, the war, and how to conduct a proper investigation there is plenty of recorded opposition from me and into it. The image of Parliament has suffered enormously some other Members to arms sales to Iraq in the 1980s. over the past few weeks—nay, the past few months. If We have spent billions of pounds of UK public we fudge this issue tonight and decline to hold the kind money on this war. We have lost 179 soldiers. Many of open, public, legally based, oath-taking, subpoenaed more have been seriously injured and traumatised by inquiry that is required, yes, there will be a report—some the experience. During the activities of the Stop the kind of bowdlerised version of what happened will be War Coalition, I have had the good fortune to meet produced by a group of Privy Counsellors, and everyone many military families who have joined Military Families will go away and say, “That’s fine”—but the demand for Against the War. They tell in graphic detail what it was an inquiry will still be there, culpability will still be like to lose their son or daughter, how their son or sought and the responsibility will still rest on those daughter has been badly injured and traumatised by people who took us into the conflict. Fudging the issue this event and how angry they feel at how they were led tonight will merely delay the debate until another day, into this situation. and another day after that. I was one of those who helped to organise the massive The legality of war is an interesting concept; the idea demonstration in 2003, and I have attended hundreds of that going to war can be legalised is itself an interesting meetings all over the country against the invasion of concept. Nevertheless, there is such a concept and it Iraq and the legality of the war. The 1 million and more revolves around the UN charter, a real and credible people who came to London on that day in 2003—and threat to an individual country, and the UN itself. If the millions more around the country who attended resolution 1441, as we were told later, gave us the local demonstrations, wrote to their MPs, sent e-mails, authority to go to war, why did the Foreign Secretary signed petitions or simply expressed an opinion against and others put such great effort into getting a second the war—felt very let down by Parliament on that UN resolution that was then not possible? The Secretary- occasion. They also felt very let down by the political General of the United Nations said in terms at the end system, and a whole generation of young people have of the conflict that he believed the actions to be illegal. now been radicalised to question the effectiveness of We must look now to what an inquiry can do. A week this place and to wonder what is the point of a political ago, the Prime Minister announced in the wake of the system that can take us into a war that turns out to be famous parliamentary Labour party meeting that there illegal and then blinker its eyes to the consequences. We would be an inquiry on the war in Iraq. I thought, need to take some serious decisions tonight. “Good news, at last a real change. Let’s have an inquiry.” We would have been better off having no inquiry whatever Ms (Hackney, North and Stoke than what we were presented with a week ago—a private Newington) (Lab): Like me, my hon. Friend was on that inquiry of Privy Counsellors sitting around together. great march in 2003. Does he agree that part of the disillusion with the political system stems from people’s The Government have made concessions in saying sadness and bitterness that so many people could have that some of the inquiry will be held in public, but the been out on the streets of London that day and yet be idea that the chair of the inquiry should consult on the ignored by the political establishment? terms of the inquiry with people who themselves may be subject to that inquiry seems a little wide of serious Jeremy Corbyn: Absolutely.My Friend gets that message and strong inquisitive action on the whole process and about Iraq in her constituency, as every Member does, the war in Iraq. and it simply will not go away. Many Members—on this side of the House and on the Opposition Benches—publicly Mark Durkan: My hon. Friend refers to the chair of regret the way they voted on that occasion, and many, the inquiry, who has form. In Northern Ireland, he was many more do so privately. They know that they were used to report on the security implications of the told falsehoods in the lead-up to the war, and they have Castlereagh inquiry. Then we had a classic exercise in also seen the consequences and the costs of it. misdirection, because that report had nothing to do The Prime Minister of the day, Tony Blair, said in with the events of the break-in, what lay behind it or terms in the House that this war was about removing anything else. It was used as a vehicle for an ulterior the weapons of mass destruction from Iraq. A short agenda to change intelligence policing in Northern Ireland time later, he, the then Foreign Secretary and others and break the Patten model for policing. Sir John 893 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 894

Chilcot, if he was a business, would not be in “Yellow We could have had consensus on the nature, scope, Pages” under headings such as “Independent” or membership and terms of reference of the inquiry if the “Challenging”. Prime Minister had engaged in proper consultation. A number of speakers drew attention to the contrast with Jeremy Corbyn: I think the Member for Foyle is what happened in the case of the Franks report. The telling us in the vernacular that the chairman of the Prime Minister has had limited contacts with other inquiry has form in this matter. political leaders and Committee Chairmen. With an Governments set up inquiries for two reasons: either important issue such as this—on which there has been to cover something up or to get to the truth. I suspect genuine division in the country, mirrored by division that this inquiry is all about diversion and ensuring that here in Parliament—consensus is all the more important, we do not get to the questions of culpability or the but the Prime Minister seems to have lacked the personal details of how this decision came about and why Parliament capability, humility and skills to seek consensus on such was presented with the information that it was. a momentous issue. Perhaps that is the fatal character I shall conclude with this point, as my time is almost flaw that condemns his Government to ultimate defeat. up. Parliament can make a decision tonight to ask the One of the key questions that raised a great deal of Government to come back with a better proposal. That passion was the basis on which evidence should be is all the Opposition motion says. I would support and given. There was an interesting and, indeed, passionate welcome that, because it would give us the opportunity discussion of whether it should be given under oath. I to have the kind of inquiry that Members on both sides must confess that, having listened to a number of learned and with all points of view on the war have asked for. I Members setting out their rather different cases, I am suspect that we might be getting the opposite, which is not entirely sure what the legal status of oaths would be an inquiry with terms of reference that allow it to in the inquiry as it is currently proposed. The Minister operate in secret and on Privy Council rules, that do not should clarify that. There was widespread concern— give it the power of subpoena or inquisition, and that including that expressed by the hon. Member for Thurrock do not give it the power to point to the legal responsibility (Andrew Mackinlay) and my hon. and learned Friend for going to war. the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Cox)—that As sure as night follows day, whatever decision we unless evidence was given under oath, the credibility of make, the demand for the truth will be there and the the inquiry itself could be fatally undermined. Having legal process will be there. Eminent lawyers such as heard strong feelings in the House, what do the Government Philippe Sands will not give up, and I suspect that many intend to do? They have changed their minds on a of the protagonists in the war will at some point end up number of other issues over the past nine days. in the International Court of Justice at The Hague—not On 15 June, the Prime Minister said, on the issue of because of a process of indiction, but because those of public and private hearings, us who believe in international law believe in its protecting “evidence will be heard in private. I believe that that will also us from war, not taking us to war. That is why we must ensure that evidence given by serving and former Ministers, get to the truth, and I hope that we get there tonight. military officers and officials is as full and candid as possible.”— [Official Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 23.] 6.30 pm The intention was clear: it was to minimise the scrutiny Dr. (Woodspring) (Con): This has been an in public of some of the most senior Ministers who excellent debate, and has featured some outstanding were due to give evidence. We have now seen a U-turn—a contributions. A wide range of issues have been discussed: welcome U-turn, it must be said—not least because of the terms of reference, the question of oaths, the question the motion that we tabled. of public versus private hearings, the membership of The most impressive speech was made by the right the committee, blame apportionment, and the concept hon. and learned Member for North-East Fife (Sir Menzies of an interim report. Campbell), who listed a number of substantial questions Let me begin with developments that I think we all that the inquiry should consider. He pointed out that welcome. The scope of the committee will allow it to many of the most politically controversial issues did not deal with the events leading up to the war, the conduct involve national security and could therefore be discussed of the war itself, and the post-war reconstruction. That in public, and that there was absolutely no reason other is a good scheme. The time frame now goes back to than the politics for that not to happen. 2001, and we welcome that. If we are to believe what we However, it was the hon. Member for Birmingham, have heard today, most of the committee’s deliberations Selly Oak (Lynne Jones) who really started to shed will now take place in public; private hearings will be some light on the issue. She asked whether Sir John held only when national security is involved. Chilcot had been consulted in advance of the Prime A point on which almost all of us can agree is Minister’s statement. The Foreign Secretary replied that that—as the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) Sir John had had no objection to the Prime Minister’s put it—this has been an object lesson in how not to set statement, but that in the light of the Prime Minister’s up an inquiry. The hon. Member for Newport, West subsequent letter it had been decided to hold some (Paul Flynn), with characteristic candour, said that he more public hearings. That was a bullseye for the hon. was embarrassed by the bungling of the Government. Lady. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John As many of these hearings as possible should be held McDonnell) said that the inquiry would be in disarray, in public, of course. The Foreign Secretary rightly said and that if it did not command all-party support in this that there are always those who make up their mind in House it would be difficult for it to command respect in advance of the outcome and that they would describe the country. There was a great deal of disquiet about any inquiry, public or private, as a whitewash, but the what has happened. key point is that the brighter the spotlight, the more 895 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 896

[Dr. Liam Fox] to the Government at the time? These are very serious questions, because they affect the well-being of our forensic the process and the more transparent the inquiry, armed forces currently in theatre. the more the public will be able to make an objective My right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and decision about what they see before them; and, frankly, Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) made an only fools and knaves will fear the truth in this matter. impassioned plea for there to be one or more political figures on the committee. As he said, it was politicians Andrew Mackinlay: The Foreign Secretary and the in this House who voted to go to war in Iraq, so we are Prime Minister are now petrified that, as some of the intrinsically involved by our own actions and decisions. hearings will be in public, the inquiry will inevitably—and It would at the least be of benefit to have senior figures rightly, I think—run for longer, and that the members on the committee who understand how government of it who have been invited under the old order of seven works and how decisions are taken, if the committee is or eight days ago might say, “Well, I’m not prepared to to make a proper evaluation of the evidence. give up a year or more of my life attending for three We were told that no MPs would be on the committee days a week.” They will have to attend, too, whereas because we would be partisan. As my right hon. Friend when a committee is held behind closed doors, nobody the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) said in knows who is, and is not, in attendance at any given his opening speech, the members who have been named time. already are hardly disinterested bystanders. Sir Lawrence Freedman has written extensively on the war in Iraq, Dr. Fox: The hon. Gentleman knows other Labour and Sir Roderic Lyne has not only commentated on the Members better than I do, and on this occasion I am war but was involved in the efforts to secure a second willing to bow to his judgment as to exactly what their United Nations resolution ahead of the war. These are motives may be. not non-partisan, disinterested figures. If they are not, There is widespread concern about the narrowness of why are Members of Parliament being excluded from the membership of the committee, and particular concern the process, when we are the ones who carry the can for about the lack of military representation. My right hon. the decision that was taken by the vote? and learned Friend the Member for Kensington and There was a lot of debate about whether we should Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) hit the nail on the head have an interim report, and there is a widespread belief when he said that there must be someone with senior that the timing of that report is designed to minimise military experience in order to have credibility with the adverse comment about current or former Labour Ministers military and beyond, and my right hon. Friend the during a general election period. As the right hon. and Member for East Hampshire (Mr. Mates) echoed that learned Member for North-East Fife pointed out, this point in his speech. Government and Prime Minister seem incapable of The committee is, after all, looking into a war—its distinguishing between Government embarrassment and conduct, its manning and equipment, and the tactics the national interest. There is no reason why we cannot employed. It will also have to look at the interaction have an interim report or reports, depending on how it between our war-fighting capability and our reconstruction is carried out. The House needs to be given an assurance capability. If it has no senior military membership, how tonight that the committee will be able to issue such can it fully interpret the military evidence given to it? reports during the course of its deliberations, if it For example, we have had inquests into the deaths of believes that it is in the public interest to do so. service personnel that have put the blame on the late The other issue that emerged today and surprised procurement of body armour. The inference was that many of us was the question of apportioning blame. that occurred late because the Secretary of State at the The Prime Minister said on 15 June: time did not want to send a political signal that the “The committee will not set out to apportion blame”.—[Official Government had already decided to embark on war in Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 24.] Iraq. Few more serious charges than that can be levelled at a Minister or Government. Those issues will have to Many Members, on both sides of the House, asked, be dealt with very clearly and forensically in the inquiry, “Why not?” If a distinguished group such as that which because we need to learn lessons as we are still at war in will carry out the inquiry comes to the conclusion that Afghanistan. political or policy failures occurred, and that individuals had culpability, by what possible sense of justice or Let me give the House one other example. There are decency could the Government set the terms of reference lessons that we need to learn from the events that led up in a way that delivers no blame, even if blame is justified? to Operation Charge of the Knights in Basra about how Today the Foreign Secretary gave us a new line, when he we handled intelligence and how it was interpreted. To said that the inquiry could praise or blame anyone it summarise, those who were there say that, ultimately, likes. That is another U-turn, and one for the Minister the decision was that we were “in Palermo, not Beirut”; to confirm when he speaks. in other words, we were dealing with criminality rather than insurgency. We know, however, that the intelligence Two things will stick in my mind from today’s debate. coming upwards was that it was an Iranian-inspired, The first is that in a debate of such momentous importance religious-driven insurgency, so how did we come to the we reached a point at which there was no Minister on conclusion that we reached? How did we get ourselves the Front Bench. That was hugely disrespectful to the into that corner? Was it the result of a failure to House on an issue on which it is trying to hold the interpret intelligence? If so, we must be very concerned Government to account. about that for Afghanistan. Or was there in any way Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, from the some interference with the process, so that the conclusion opening speech by my right hon. Friend the Member that was reached was the one that was most favourable for Richmond, Yorks, a single common thread has run 897 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 898 through the debate. It was well expressed by the hon. matters. It is crucial that we get it right. It was therefore Member for Cannock Chase and it echoed from right, in my view, that we listened to the views and Carmarthen, Billericay and Torridge and West Devon. concerns that were being expressed. I want to leave no It was that this House should have ownership of the Member in any doubt about whether we have listened. terms of reference of this inquiry, not the Prime Minister. The right hon. Gentleman also stated his view on an That point cut across party politics and it gave voice to interim report. Sir John Chilcot has made it clear that a growing belief that this House has been neutered by he does not rule that out, but, to quote what he said in Executives of both colours over a period of time. his letter in response to the Prime Minister: This should be a preliminary debate, because we “the causes and effects of particular phases of these events should have a commitment that we will have a further cannot simply be divided up so as to separate clearly one period opportunity to discuss this issue on a substantive motion from another.” setting out the terms of reference of the inquiry. Whether Nevertheless, Chilcot is not ruling an interim report that commitment is forthcoming or not will determine out, and nor are the Government. There is, however, a not only whether many Labour Members will vote for genuine difficulty that should be overcome. the motion, but whether the Prime Minister’s much trumpeted transparency is real. Or has he learned nothing Mr. Cox: What has the Minister to fear from submitting from the serial own goals that seem to be the hallmark proposed terms of reference to this House on a substantive of his premiership? motion for full debate and scrutiny? Will he answer that question? 6.43 pm Bill Rammell: I am making it clear how we have The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Bill Rammell): listened and responded, how the inquiry will be conducted We have had an exceedingly good debate. It clear that and how the views that have been expressed have been Members in all parts of the House have genuine concerns addressed. and convictions on this subject, whatever view they The shadow Foreign Secretary also accused us of take. prohibiting the apportionment of blame. I do not think Earlier today, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary that that is the case. We have given the inquiry the set out—rightly, in my view—why we are having an widest possible terms of reference and the committee inquiry into the Iraq war and why we believe that will decide for itself what issues to focus on. The Prime Sir John Chilcot and his committee have the remit, the Minister has made it clear that this is not about civil or support and the authority to fulfil that objective. Let me criminal liability, but beyond that, it is a matter for the be clear: if we are serious about learning lessons from inquiry to decide when it comes to write its report. the Iraq war, we need an independent, strategic review to be conducted with full access to Government Mr. Heath: The hon. Gentleman is saying what the documents— Prime Minister made clear. What he made clear on 15 June is that Andrew Mackinlay: Yes: independent. “The committee will not set out to apportion blame”.—[Official Report, 15 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 24.] Bill Rammell: As my hon. Friend says, the inquiry Those are the words of the Prime Minister, so how can needs to be independent, and, in the way that it is the Minister say that the Prime Minister did not intend structured, it will be independent. It will have the force that to be the outcome? of that independence and it will get at the facts. That is what we propose. It is not about indicting individuals, Bill Rammell: There is a problem in our political but about understanding collectively what went right as system. When Governments listen to the concerns that well as what went wrong, and ensuring that we all learn have been expressed to them, respond to them and alter lessons—Government, Parliament, the armed forces, their actions accordingly, they are criticised for inconsistency. police and development and humanitarian experts alike. I think that it is right in the circumstances that the Government have genuinely listened to the views that Dr. Fox: The Minister says the inquiry is not about have been expressed and responded to them. That is indicting individuals. The Foreign Secretary said that what we are trying to do. the committee can praise or blame who it likes. Will it be able to apportion blame to individuals? Andrew Mackinlay: What about the oath? Answer the point about the oath. Bill Rammell: I shall deal with that point directly. I assure the hon. Gentleman that he will get a response. Bill Rammell: I will come on to the issue of the oath. In the time that I have available, I shall respond to as Mr. Hague: Can we be absolutely clear, for the avoidance many of the points that have been made as possible. Let of all further doubt, that the Prime Minister’s statement, me start with those made by the shadow Foreign Secretary, quoted by a moment ago by the hon. Member for the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague). Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), that the inquiry I listened seriously and intently to what he said. His would not set out to apportion blame is no longer speech was long on critique, but short on substantive operative and no longer part of Government policy? differences with the Government on where we are today. He acknowledged that, since a week ago on Monday, Bill Rammell: There has never been a ban on what the the Government have consulted; he said that we had inquiry can consider. Compared with any other inquiry, listened and that the outcome was what he had been this one has one of the widest remits possible. It will be calling for. If the accusation is that, as a Government, able to consider all those issues. we have listened and moved, I plead guilty. I make no apology for saying that. I say that because the inquiry Mr. Jenkin: Will the Minister give way? 899 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 900

Bill Rammell: Let me make some progress, then I will that, and those points were to be incorporated in a give way. substantive motion, he would carry the whole House I ask those of my hon. Friends who might be considering with him. voting against the Government to look at the Opposition’s Bill Rammell: I know that my hon. Friend is not motion and our amendment. There is very little difference driven by partisanship on this issue, and he makes a between the two. The only substantive difference—we very reasonable case. We have to vote this evening on are both now talking in terms of openness—is that the the motion before us, but we will report back to the Opposition call for a wider and more diverse membership House once those consultations and deliberations have for the inquiry. There are arguments for and against taken place. that. I ask my hon. Friends whether that difference is worth defeating the Government this evening. I do not I turn now to the arguments advanced by my hon. believe that it is. and learned Friend the Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews). He made some very serious On the question of the oath, I understand the House’s accusations about the Government’s conduct in the concern. That is why the Prime Minister asked Chilcot run-up to war, saying that the Government had deliberately to look at the matter. In his letter of 21 June, Chilcot misled and deceived the House. I was a Foreign Office said: Minister during the run-up to the war. I was not looking “I will indeed, as you suggest, examine how best, given the at the dossier, but I did look at the raw intelligence non-judicial nature of the inquiry, a formal undertaking can be almost daily. I was persuaded by that to the extent that given by witnesses that their contributions will be complete, my biggest fear as we went to war was that chemical truthful and accurate”. weapons would be used on our troops in Iraq. I would It is clear that the Prime Minister understands the not have reached that conclusion unless I found the concern and that Chilcot gets it and is seeking a way to evidence persuasive. deliver. I think that we should support him on that. The conspiracy theorists say that this was all a plot and that we misled people. Yes, the intelligence on Andrew Mackinlay: But there is no way to deliver which we formed our views was wrong, but the intelligence that. The Prime Minister knows that, Chilcot knows it of every advanced intelligence agency in the world—even and anyone in this House with a bit of brain knows it in those countries opposed to the war—reflected the too. Without a statutory base, there is no way that the same view and conviction. oath can be administered so that a person who abrogates it commits perjury. The Minister knows that, I know Mr. Duncan Smith: May I return the Minister to the that, so take it back. central issue? It is not about the war itself, but about how we inquire into it. Whether one is in favour of it or not, the reality is that the Minister must come back to Bill Rammell: With the greatest respect, I must tell my the House with a substantive motion, as the hon. Member hon. Friend that the problem with a statutory judicial for Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) said. Sir John Chilcot inquiry, based on the experience that we all know, is could be told to do everything that we have described, that it would take years. It would involve legal representation but is it not important the he gets a vote from us? Does for every witness and cost hundreds of millions of it not matter to him whether the inquiry gets the pounds, and it would not get to the answers that people endorsement of the House of Commons? are looking for. Bill Rammell: Over the past 10 days, we have genuinely Sir Menzies Campbell: If the House resolves to give listened to the views and criticisms expressed. We have the inquiry the authority to compel witnesses and to put rightly moved, and Members now have opportunity to them on oath, that is exercisable against any witness. make a judgment on that. That is why we are having a Why is the House not being asked to provide that vote, and I urge Members to do so. safeguard, so that the inquiry commands public confidence? The right hon. and learned Member for Kensington and Chelsea (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) said that we did not Bill Rammell: In all the debates that we have had on consult the armed forces. That is emphatically not true. this matter in recent months, the Franks inquiry has The Chief of the Defence Staff, as the head of the been cited as the model for getting to the heart of these armed forces, was consulted and was content with the matters. That is certainly what the Opposition argued, form of the inquiry. but that inquiry was not conducted with witnesses Sir Malcolm Rifkind: The Minister says that the under oath. No one has argued either plausibly or Government have been in listening mode and that they persuasively this evening that the absence of the oath want to go along with the armed forces, so will he now prevented that inquiry from getting at the truth. accept the overwhelming view on both sides of the Nevertheless, we have asked Sir John Chilcot to look at House that someone with a military background should the matter. be a full member of the committee of inquiry? If he is not prepared to accept that, will he explain why not? Dr. Tony Wright: I think that we are making unnecessarily heavy weather of this. We have made enormous progress Bill Rammell: Because I believe that there is sufficient and consensus is within our grasp. All that my hon. expertise on the committee of inquiry. Sir John Chilcot Friend the Minister has to say is that, having learned has made it clear that some military experts will come the lessons of the consultations with Sir John Chilcot, forward both to give advice to the committee and to he or the Foreign Secretary will come back to the House question witnesses. If we put that alongside the expertise to announce the formal terms of reference for the and experience of the members of the committee, I inquiry and how it will be conducted. If he were to say believe that we have a basis of a way forward. 901 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 902

In conclusion, the inquiry we propose closely matches Division No. 155] [6.59 pm what the Opposition and many hon. Members have asked for. The Opposition have consistently called for AYES an independent Franks-style inquiry. The inquiry we Afriyie, Adam Field, rh Mr. Frank propose is modelled on Franks, but it goes further. The Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Field, Mr. Mark Opposition have called for Parliament to have the Alexander, Danny Fisher, Mark opportunity to debate the findings of the inquiry, which Amess, Mr. David Flynn, Paul is precisely what we have proposed. However, the Prime Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Foster, Mr. Don Minister has rightly granted significant discretion to the Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Fox, Dr. Liam chairman of the inquiry and has specified that the Atkinson, Mr. Peter Francois, Mr. Mark inquiry should be conducted in a way that delivers Bacon, Mr. Richard Fraser, Christopher maximum candour, openness and efficiency, and maintains Baker, Norman Gale, Mr. Roger full public confidence while avoiding damage to national Baldry, Tony Galloway, Mr. George security. The Prime Minister also made it clear—rightly, Baron, Mr. John Gauke, Mr. David Barrett, John George, Andrew in my view—that Sir John and his colleagues should be Beith, rh Sir Alan Gibb, Mr. Nick able to decide how best to achieve that. Bellingham, Mr. Henry Gidley, Sandra Benyon, Mr. Richard Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Mr. Jenkin: Why should the Government, and not Beresford, Sir Paul Godsiff, Mr. Roger the House, decide? Binley, Mr. Brian Goldsworthy, Julia Blunt, Mr. Crispin Goodman, Mr. Paul Bill Rammell: The House has the opportunity and Bone, Mr. Peter Goodwill, Mr. Robert Brady, Mr. Graham Gove, Michael the right to decide this evening. Brake, Tom Gray, Mr. James Having started on the basis—[Interruption.] Brazier, Mr. Julian Grayling, Chris Brokenshire, James Green, Damian Mr. Speaker: Order. The House must come to order. I Brooke, Annette Greening, Justine know that tempers are running high and feelings are Browne, Mr. Jeremy Grieve, Mr. Dominic strong, but the House must come to order. Browning, Angela Gummer, rh Mr. John Bruce, rh Malcolm Hague, rh Mr. William Burns, Mr. Simon Hammond, Stephen Bill Rammell: Having started on the basis that we did, Burrowes, Mr. David Hands, Mr. Greg the Prime Minister and the Government, as I have said, Burstow, Mr. Paul Harper, Mr. Mark have rightly listened to arguments about hearing evidence Burt, Alistair Harris, Dr. Evan in public. That is why the Prime Minister asked Sir John Burt, Lorely Hayes, Mr. John Chilcot to consider evidence being heard in public, and Butterfill, Sir John Heald, Mr. Oliver Sir John has now stated that as many of the proceedings Cable, Dr. Vincent Heath, Mr. David as possible will be held in public. We strongly welcome Cameron, rh Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory, rh that. That has been the major point of contention in Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Mr. David the debate of the past 10 days, and the Government Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hemming, John have listened and moved on it, so I urge Members to Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hendry, Charles Chope, Mr. Christopher Herbert, Nick support us. Clark, Greg Hoban, Mr. Mark A number of Members have asked whether the inquiry Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hoey, Kate will have access to all Government papers. I can confirm Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas that that will be the case, to ensure that we get to the Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Hollobone, Mr. Philip bottom of the matter. The inquiry has as wide a remit as Corbyn, Jeremy Holloway, Mr. Adam possible to enable it to get at the facts. The inquiry is Cormack, Sir Patrick Holmes, Paul tasked to look at the totality of our engagement in Iraq Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Hopkins, Kelvin over an eight-year period, and it has a far broader remit Crabb, Mr. Stephen Horam, Mr. John than any remotely comparable inquiry. Davey, Mr. Edward Horwood, Martin Davies, Mr. Dai Hosie, Stewart As I said earlier, this is not about indictment, although Davies, David T.C. Howard, rh Mr. Michael if blame is to be apportioned, it will be. The fundamental (Monmouth) Howarth, David issue before the House, and before the inquiry, is that it Davies, Philip Howarth, Mr. Gerald is crucial to the future conduct of our operations in Davis, rh David Howell, John Afghanistan and elsewhere that we genuinely learn the Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Hughes, Simon lessons from the conflict in Iraq. I believe we have the Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Huhne, Chris ability to do that. Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Dorries, Nadine Hunter, Mark The Government have rightly listened to the criticisms Drew, Mr. David Hurd, Mr. Nick and the views that have been put forward. We have shifted, Duncan, Alan Jack, rh Mr. Michael and I urge Members to support us in the Lobby. Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Jackson, Mr. Stewart Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the Dunne, Mr. Philip Jenkin, Mr. Bernard original words stand part of the Question. Durkan, Mark Jones, Mr. David Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Jones, Lynne The House proceeded to a Division. Evennett, Mr. David Kawczynski, Daniel Fabricant, Michael Keetch, Mr. Paul Mr. Speaker: I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate Fallon, Mr. Michael Key, Robert the delay in the No Lobby. Farrelly, Paul Kirkbride, Miss Julie Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr. Greg The House having divided: Ayes 260, Noes 299. Featherstone, Lynne Kramer, Susan 903 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 904

Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Russell, Bob Bailey, Mr. Adrian Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Lamb, Norman Sanders, Mr. Adrian Baird, Vera Doran, Mr. Frank Lancaster, Mr. Mark Scott, Mr. Lee Balls, rh Ed Dowd, Jim Lansley, Mr. Andrew Selous, Andrew Banks, Gordon Eagle, Angela Laws, Mr. David Shapps, Grant Barlow, Ms Celia Eagle, Maria Leech, Mr. John Shepherd, Mr. Richard Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Ellman, Mrs. Louise Leigh, Mr. Edward Short, rh Clare Battle, rh John Engel, Natascha Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Simmonds, Mark Bayley, Hugh Ennis, Jeff Lewis, Dr. Julian Simpson, Alan Beckett, rh Margaret Fitzpatrick, Jim Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Simpson, Mr. Keith Begg, Miss Anne Flello, Mr. Robert Lidington, Mr. David Soames, Mr. Nicholas Bell, Sir Stuart Flint, rh Caroline Lilley, rh Mr. , Sir Peter Benn, rh Hilary Follett, Barbara Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Benton, Mr. Joe Foster, Mr. Michael Loughton, Tim Spicer, Sir Michael Berry, Roger (Worcester) Luff, Peter Spring, Mr. Richard Betts, Mr. Clive Foster, Michael Jabez Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Stanley, rh Sir John Blackman, Liz (Hastings and Rye) Mackinlay, Andrew Steen, Mr. Anthony Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Francis, Dr. Hywel MacNeil, Mr. Angus Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Blears, rh Hazel Gapes, Mike Main, Anne Streeter, Mr. Gary Blizzard, Mr. Bob Gardiner, Barry Malins, Mr. Humfrey Stuart, Mr. Graham Blunkett, rh Mr. David George, rh Mr. Bruce Maples, Mr. John Stunell, Andrew Borrow, Mr. David S. Gilroy, Linda Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Swayne, Mr. Desmond Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Goggins, rh Paul Mason, John Swinson, Jo Brennan, Kevin Goodman, Helen Mates, rh Mr. Michael Swire, Mr. Hugo Brown, rh Mr. Gordon Griffith, Nia Maude, rh Mr. Francis Syms, Mr. Robert Brown, Lyn Griffiths, Nigel McDonnell, John Tapsell, Sir Peter Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Grogan, Mr. John McIntosh, Miss Anne Taylor, Mr. Ian Brown, Mr. Russell Gwynne, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Taylor, Dr. Richard Browne, rh Des Hain, rh Mr. Peter Mercer, Patrick Teather, Sarah Bryant, Chris Hall, Mr. Mike Miller, Mrs. Maria Thurso, John Buck, Ms Karen Hall, Patrick Milton, Anne Timpson, Mr. Edward Burden, Richard Hamilton, Mr. David Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Tredinnick, David Burgon, Colin Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Moss, Mr. Malcolm Turner, Mr. Andrew Burnham, rh Andy Hanson, rh Mr. David Mulholland, Greg Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Butler, Ms Dawn Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mundell, David Vaizey, Mr. Edward Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Harris, Mr. Tom Murrison, Dr. Andrew Vara, Mr. Shailesh Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Havard, Mr. Dai Neill, Robert Viggers, Sir Peter Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Healey, rh John Newmark, Mr. Brooks Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Cairns, David Henderson, Mr. Doug O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Walker, Mr. Charles Campbell, Mr. Alan Hendrick, Mr. Mark Öpik, Lembit Wallace, Mr. Ben Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Osborne, Mr. George Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Caton, Mr. Martin Hesford, Stephen Ottaway, Richard Waterson, Mr. Nigel Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Paice, Mr. James Watkinson, Angela Challen, Colin Heyes, David Paterson, Mr. Owen Webb, Steve Chapman, Ben Hill, rh Keith Pelling, Mr. Andrew Whittingdale, Mr. John Chaytor, Mr. David Hillier, Meg Penning, Mike Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Clapham, Mr. Michael Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Penrose, John Willetts, Mr. David Clark, Paul Hood, Mr. Jim Pickles, Mr. Eric Williams, Hywel Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Prentice, Mr. Gordon Williams, Mark Clelland, Mr. David Hope, Phil Price, Adam Williams, Mr. Roger Clwyd, rh Ann Howarth, rh Mr. George Pritchard, Mark Williams, Stephen Coaker, Mr. Vernon Howells, rh Dr. Kim Pugh, Dr. John Willott, Jenny Coffey, Ann Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Randall, Mr. John Wilson, Mr. Rob Cohen, Harry Hughes, rh Beverley Redwood, rh Mr. John Winterton, Ann Connarty, Michael Humble, Mrs. Joan Reid, Mr. Alan Winterton, Sir Nicholas Cooper, Rosie Hutton, rh Mr. John Rennie, Willie Wishart, Pete Cooper, rh Yvette Iddon, Dr. Brian Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wood, Mike Cousins, Jim Illsley, Mr. Eric Crausby, Mr. David Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Robathan, Mr. Andrew Wright, Jeremy Robertson, Angus Creagh, Mary Irranca-Davies, Huw Yeo, Mr. Tim Robertson, Hugh Cruddas, Jon Jackson, Glenda Younger-Ross, Richard Robertson, Mr. Laurence Cryer, Mrs. Ann James, Mrs. Siân C. Rogerson, Dan Tellers for the Ayes: Cummings, John Jenkins, Mr. Brian Rosindell, Andrew Bill Wiggin and Cunningham, Mr. Jim Johnson, rh Alan Ruffley, Mr. David James Duddridge Cunningham, Tony Johnson, Ms Diana R. Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Jones, Helen NOES David, Mr. Wayne Jones, Mr. Kevan Davies, Mr. Quentin Jones, Mr. Martyn Abbott, Ms Diane Anderson, Mr. David Dean, Mrs. Janet Jowell, rh Tessa Ainger, Nick Anderson, Janet Denham, rh Mr. John Joyce, Mr. Eric Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Armstrong, rh Hilary Dismore, Mr. Andrew Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Atkins, Charlotte Dobbin, Jim Keeble, Ms Sally Allen, Mr. Graham Austin, Mr. Ian Dobson, rh Frank Keeley, Barbara 905 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 906

Keen, Alan Prosser, Gwyn Woolas, Mr. Phil Tellers for the Noes: Keen, Ann Purchase, Mr. Ken Wright, Mr. Anthony Mr. John Heppell and Kelly, rh Ruth Purnell, rh James Wright, David Steve McCabe Kemp, Mr. Fraser Rammell, Bill Wright, Mr. Iain Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Kidney, Mr. David Reed, Mr. Jamie Question accordingly negatived. Knight, rh Jim Riordan, Mrs. Linda Kumar, Dr. Ashok Robertson, John Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey That the proposed words be there added. Lammy, rh Mr. David Rooney, Mr. Terry The House divided: Ayes 305, Noes 251. Laxton, Mr. Bob Roy, Mr. Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Roy, Lindsay Division No. 156] [7.19 pm Lepper, David Ruane, Chris Levitt, Tom Ruddock, Joan AYES Lewis, Mr. Ivan Russell, Christine Abbott, Ms Diane Clwyd, rh Ann Linton, Martin Ryan, rh Joan Ainger, Nick Coaker, Mr. Vernon Lloyd, Tony Salter, Martin Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Coffey, Ann Love, Mr. Andrew Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Cohen, Harry Lucas, Ian Seabeck, Alison Allen, Mr. Graham Connarty, Michael Mactaggart, Fiona Sharma, Mr. Virendra Anderson, Mr. David Cooper, Rosie Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Shaw, Jonathan Anderson, Janet Cooper, rh Yvette Malik, Mr. Shahid Sheerman, Mr. Barry Armstrong, rh Hilary Cousins, Jim Mann, John Sheridan, Jim Atkins, Charlotte Crausby, Mr. David Marris, Rob Simon, Mr. Siôn Austin, Mr. Ian Creagh, Mary Marsden, Mr. Gordon Singh, Mr. Marsha Bailey, Mr. Adrian Cruddas, Jon Martlew, Mr. Eric Skinner, Mr. Dennis Baird, Vera Cryer, Mrs. Ann McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Slaughter, Mr. Andy Balls, rh Ed Cummings, John McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Banks, Gordon Cunningham, Mr. Jim McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, Ms Angela C. Barlow, Ms Celia Cunningham, Tony McCartney, rh Mr. Ian (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Darling, rh Mr. Alistair McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Battle, rh John David, Mr. Wayne McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, Geraldine Bayley, Hugh Davies, Mr. Quentin McFall, rh John Smith, rh Jacqui Beckett, rh Margaret Dean, Mrs. Janet McGovern, Mr. Jim Smith, John Begg, Miss Anne Denham, rh Mr. John McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Snelgrove, Anne Bell, Sir Stuart Dismore, Mr. Andrew McIsaac, Shona Southworth, Helen Benn, rh Hilary Dobbin, Jim McKechin, Ann Spellar, rh Mr. John Benton, Mr. Joe Dobson, rh Frank McKenna, Rosemary Spink, Bob Berry, Roger Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Betts, Mr. Clive Doran, Mr. Frank Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Stewart, Ian Blackman, Liz Dowd, Jim Merron, Gillian Stoate, Dr. Howard Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Eagle, Angela Michael, rh Alun Straw, rh Mr. Jack Blears, rh Hazel Eagle, Maria Miliband, rh David Stuart, Ms Gisela Blizzard, Mr. Bob Ellman, Mrs. Louise Miliband, rh Edward Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Blunkett, rh Mr. David Engel, Natascha Miller, Andrew Tami, Mark Borrow, Mr. David S. Ennis, Jeff Mitchell, Mr. Austin Taylor, Ms Dari Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Farrelly, Paul Moffatt, Laura Thomas, Mr. Gareth Brennan, Kevin Field, rh Mr. Frank Mole, Chris Thornberry, Emily Brown, rh Mr. Gordon Fisher, Mark Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Brown, Lyn Fitzpatrick, Jim Morden, Jessica Todd, Mr. Mark Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Flello, Mr. Robert Morgan, Julie Touhig, rh Mr. Don Brown, Mr. Russell Flint, rh Caroline Mountford, Kali Trickett, Jon Browne, rh Des Follett, Barbara Mudie, Mr. George Turner, Dr. Desmond Bryant, Chris Foster, Mr. Michael Mullin, Mr. Chris Turner, Mr. Neil Buck, Ms Karen (Worcester) Murphy, Mr. Denis Twigg, Derek Burden, Richard Foster, Michael Jabez Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Ussher, Kitty Burgon, Colin (Hastings and Rye) Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Vaz, rh Keith Burnham, rh Andy Francis, Dr. Hywel Naysmith, Dr. Doug Walley, Joan Butler, Ms Dawn Gapes, Mike Norris, Dan Waltho, Lynda Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Gardiner, Barry O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Ward, Claire Byrne, rh Mr. Liam George, rh Mr. Bruce O’Hara, Mr. Edward Watson, Mr. Tom Cairns, David Gerrard, Mr. Neil Olner, Mr. Bill Watts, Mr. Dave Campbell, Mr. Alan Gilroy, Linda Osborne, Sandra Whitehead, Dr. Alan Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Goggins, rh Paul Owen, Albert Wicks, rh Malcolm Caton, Mr. Martin Goodman, Helen Paisley, rh Rev. Ian Williams, rh Mr. Alan Cawsey, Mr. Ian Griffith, Nia Palmer, Dr. Nick Williams, Mrs. Betty Challen, Colin Griffiths, , Ian Wills, rh Mr. Michael Chapman, Ben Grogan, Mr. John Plaskitt, Mr. James Wilson, Phil Chaytor, Mr. David Gwynne, Andrew Pope, Mr. Greg Wilson, Sammy Clapham, Mr. Michael Hain, rh Mr. Peter Pound, Stephen Winnick, Mr. David Clark, Paul Hall, Mr. Mike Prentice, Bridget Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hall, Patrick Primarolo, rh Dawn Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Clelland, Mr. David Hamilton, Mr. David 907 Iraq Inquiry24 JUNE 2009 Iraq Inquiry 908

Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, Geraldine Ussher, Kitty Hanson, rh Mr. David McFall, rh John Smith, rh Jacqui Vaz, rh Keith Harman, rh Ms Harriet McGovern, Mr. Jim Smith, John Walley, Joan Harris, Mr. Tom McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Snelgrove, Anne Waltho, Lynda Havard, Mr. Dai McIsaac, Shona Soulsby, Sir Peter Ward, Claire Healey, rh John McKechin, Ann Southworth, Helen Watson, Mr. Tom Henderson, Mr. Doug McKenna, Rosemary Spellar, rh Mr. John Watts, Mr. Dave Hendrick, Mr. Mark McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Spink, Bob Whitehead, Dr. Alan Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wicks, rh Malcolm Hesford, Stephen Merron, Gillian Stewart, Ian Williams, rh Mr. Alan Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Michael, rh Alun Stoate, Dr. Howard Williams, Mrs. Betty Heyes, David Miliband, rh David Straw, rh Mr. Jack Wills, rh Mr. Michael Hill, rh Keith Miliband, rh Edward Stuart, Ms Gisela Wilson, Phil Hillier, Meg Miller, Andrew Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Wilson, Sammy Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Mitchell, Mr. Austin Tami, Mark Winnick, Mr. David Hood, Mr. Jim Moffatt, Laura Taylor, Ms Dari Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Mole, Chris Taylor, David Woodward, rh Mr. Shaun Hope, Phil Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Thomas, Mr. Gareth Woolas, Mr. Phil Howarth, rh Mr. George Morden, Jessica Thornberry, Emily Wright, Mr. Anthony Howells, rh Dr. Kim Morgan, Julie Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Wright, David Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Mountford, Kali Todd, Mr. Mark Wright, Mr. Iain Hughes, rh Beverley Mudie, Mr. George Touhig, rh Mr. Don Wright, Dr. Tony Humble, Mrs. Joan Mullin, Mr. Chris Trickett, Jon Hutton, rh Mr. John Murphy, Mr. Denis Turner, Dr. Desmond Tellers for the Ayes: Iddon, Dr. Brian Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Turner, Mr. Neil Steve McCabe and Illsley, Mr. Eric Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Twigg, Derek Mr. John Heppell Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Naysmith, Dr. Doug Irranca-Davies, Huw Norris, Dan NOES Jackson, Glenda O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike James, Mrs. Siân C. O’Hara, Mr. Edward Afriyie, Adam Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Jenkins, Mr. Brian Olner, Mr. Bill Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Crabb, Mr. Stephen Johnson, rh Alan Osborne, Sandra Alexander, Danny Davey, Mr. Edward Johnson, Ms Diana R. Owen, Albert Amess, Mr. David Davies, Mr. Dai Jones, Helen Paisley, rh Rev. Ian Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Davies, David T.C. Jones, Mr. Kevan Palmer, Dr. Nick Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James (Monmouth) Jones, Mr. Martyn Pearson, Ian Atkinson, Mr. Peter Davies, Philip Jowell, rh Tessa Plaskitt, Mr. James Bacon, Mr. Richard Davis, rh David Joyce, Mr. Eric Pope, Mr. Greg Baker, Norman Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Pound, Stephen Baldry, Tony Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Keeble, Ms Sally Prentice, Bridget Baron, Mr. John Dorries, Nadine Keeley, Barbara Primarolo, rh Dawn Barrett, John Drew, Mr. David Keen, Alan Prosser, Gwyn Beith, rh Sir Alan Duncan, Alan Keen, Ann Purchase, Mr. Ken Bellingham, Mr. Henry Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Kelly, rh Ruth Purnell, rh James Benyon, Mr. Richard Dunne, Mr. Philip Kemp, Mr. Fraser Rammell, Bill Beresford, Sir Paul Durkan, Mark Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Binley, Mr. Brian Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Kidney, Mr. David Reed, Mr. Jamie Blunt, Mr. Crispin Evennett, Mr. David Knight, rh Jim Riordan, Mrs. Linda Bone, Mr. Peter Fabricant, Michael Kumar, Dr. Ashok Robertson, John Brady, Mr. Graham Fallon, Mr. Michael Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Brake, Tom Farron, Tim Lammy, rh Mr. David Rooney, Mr. Terry Brazier, Mr. Julian Featherstone, Lynne Laxton, Mr. Bob Roy, Mr. Frank Brokenshire, James Field, Mr. Mark Lazarowicz, Mark Roy, Lindsay Brooke, Annette Flynn, Paul Lepper, David Ruane, Chris Browne, Mr. Jeremy Foster, Mr. Don Levitt, Tom Ruddock, Joan Browning, Angela Fox, Dr. Liam Lewis, Mr. Ivan Russell, Christine Bruce, rh Malcolm Francois, Mr. Mark Linton, Martin Ryan, rh Joan Burns, Mr. Simon Fraser, Christopher Lloyd, Tony Salter, Martin Burrowes, Mr. David Gale, Mr. Roger Love, Mr. Andrew Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Burstow, Mr. Paul Galloway, Mr. George Lucas, Ian Seabeck, Alison Burt, Alistair Gauke, Mr. David Mactaggart, Fiona Sharma, Mr. Virendra Burt, Lorely George, Andrew Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Shaw, Jonathan Butterfill, Sir John Gibb, Mr. Nick Malik, Mr. Shahid Sheerman, Mr. Barry Cable, Dr. Vincent Gidley, Sandra Mann, John Sheridan, Jim Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Marris, Rob Simon, Mr. Siôn Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Godsiff, Mr. Roger Marsden, Mr. Gordon Singh, Mr. Marsha Carswell, Mr. Douglas Goldsworthy, Julia Martlew, Mr. Eric Skinner, Mr. Dennis Chope, Mr. Christopher Goodman, Mr. Paul McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Slaughter, Mr. Andy Clark, Greg Goodwill, Mr. Robert McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Gove, Michael McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, Ms Angela C. Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Gray, Mr. James McCartney, rh Mr. Ian (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Grayling, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Corbyn, Jeremy Green, Damian 909 Iraq Inquiry 24 JUNE 2009 910

Greening, Justine Mercer, Patrick Viggers, Sir Peter Williams, Mr. Roger Grieve, Mr. Dominic Miller, Mrs. Maria Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Williams, Stephen Gummer, rh Mr. John Milton, Anne Walker, Mr. Charles Willott, Jenny Hague, rh Mr. William Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Wallace, Mr. Ben Wilson, Mr. Rob Hammond, Stephen Moss, Mr. Malcolm Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Winterton, Ann Hands, Mr. Greg Mulholland, Greg Waterson, Mr. Nigel Winterton, Sir Nicholas Harper, Mr. Mark Mundell, David Watkinson, Angela Wishart, Pete Harris, Dr. Evan Murrison, Dr. Andrew Webb, Steve Wright, Jeremy Hayes, Mr. John Neill, Robert Whittingdale, Mr. John Yeo, Mr. Tim Heald, Mr. Oliver Newmark, Mr. Brooks Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Younger-Ross, Richard Heath, Mr. David O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Willetts, Mr. David Tellers for the Noes: Heathcoat-Amory, rh Öpik, Lembit Williams, Hywel Bill Wiggin and Mr. David Osborne, Mr. George Williams, Mark James Duddridge Hemming, John Ottaway, Richard Hendry, Charles Paice, Mr. James Herbert, Nick Paterson, Mr. Owen Question accordingly agreed to. Hoban, Mr. Mark Pelling, Mr. Andrew Mr. Speaker declared the main Question, as amended, Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Penning, Mike to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). Hollobone, Mr. Philip Penrose, John Holloway, Mr. Adam Pickles, Mr. Eric Resolved, Holmes, Paul Prentice, Mr. Gordon That this House welcomes the announcement by the Government Hopkins, Kelvin Price, Adam of a wide ranging and independent inquiry to establish the Horam, Mr. John Pritchard, Mark lessons to be learnt from the United Kingdom’s engagement in Horwood, Martin Pugh, Dr. John Iraq, which will consider the run-up to the conflict, the military Hosie, Stewart Randall, Mr. John action and reconstruction; recognises the importance of allowing Howard, rh Mr. Michael Redwood, rh Mr. John the families of those who gave their lives in Iraq to express their views about the nature and procedures of the inquiry; notes the Howarth, David Reid, Mr. Alan Prime Minister’s request that the chairman of the inquiry consult Howarth, Mr. Gerald Rennie, Willie party leaders and chairs of the relevant parliamentary committees Howell, John Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm on the scope for taking evidence under oath and holding sessions Hughes, Simon Robathan, Mr. Andrew in public; and commends the proposal by the chair of the inquiry Huhne, Chris Robertson, Angus to hold as much of the proceedings as possible in public without Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Robertson, Hugh compromising national security or the inquiry’s ability to report Hunter, Mark Robertson, Mr. Laurence thoroughly and without delay. Hurd, Mr. Nick Rogerson, Dan Jack, rh Mr. Michael Rosindell, Andrew Jackson, Mr. Stewart Ruffley, Mr. David Business without Debate Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Russell, Bob Jones, Mr. David Sanders, Mr. Adrian Kawczynski, Daniel Scott, Mr. Lee Keetch, Mr. Paul Selous, Andrew DELEGATED LEGISLATION Key, Robert Shapps, Grant Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Kirkbride, Miss Julie Shepherd, Mr. Richard Order No. 118(6)), Knight, rh Mr. Greg Short, rh Clare Kramer, Susan Simmonds, Mark Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Simpson, Alan ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION Lamb, Norman Simpson, Mr. Keith That the draft Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Lancaster, Mr. Mark Soames, Mr. Nicholas (Amendment) Regulations 2009, which were laid before this Lansley, Mr. Andrew Spelman, Mrs. Caroline House on 13 May, be approved.—(David Wright.) Laws, Mr. David Spicer, Sir Michael The Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question Leech, Mr. John Spring, Mr. Richard being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday Leigh, Mr. Edward Stanley, rh Sir John 1 July (Standing Order No. 41A). Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Steen, Mr. Anthony Lewis, Dr. Julian Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Streeter, Mr. Gary Order No. 118(6)), Lidington, Mr. David Stuart, Mr. Graham Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Stunell, Andrew Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Swayne, Mr. Desmond LIMITED LIABILITY PARTNERSHIPS Loughton, Tim Swinson, Jo That the draft Limited Liability Partnerships (Application of Luff, Peter Swire, Mr. Hugo Companies Act 2006) Regulations 2009, which were laid before Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Syms, Mr. Robert this House on 18 May, be approved.—(David Wright.) Mackinlay, Andrew Tapsell, Sir Peter Question agreed to. MacNeil, Mr. Angus Taylor, David Main, Anne Taylor, Mr. Ian Mr. Speaker: With the leave of the House, we shall Malins, Mr. Humfrey Taylor, Dr. Richard take motions 4 to 11 together. Maples, Mr. John Teather, Sarah Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Thurso, John Order No. 118(6)), Mason, John Timpson, Mr. Edward Mates, rh Mr. Michael Tredinnick, David Maude, rh Mr. Francis Turner, Mr. Andrew TRIBUNALS AND INQUIRIES McDonnell, John Tyrie, Mr. Andrew That the draft Transfer of Functions of the Consumer Credit McIntosh, Miss Anne Vaizey, Mr. Edward Appeals Tribunal Order 2009, which was laid before this House McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Vara, Mr. Shailesh on 1 June, be approved. 911 Business without Debate 24 JUNE 2009 912

That the draft Transfer of Functions (Transport Tribunal and Taxi Drivers (Assault) Appeal Panel) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 1 June, be approved. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House That the draft Transfer of Functions (Estate Agents Appeals do now adjourn.—(David Wright.) and Additional Scheduled Tribunal) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 1 June, be approved. 7.33 pm

INTERNATIONAL IMMUNITIES AND PRIVILEGES Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): The That the draft European Organization for Astronomical Research debate provides me with an opportunity—[Interruption.] in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) Order 2009, After you have been congratulated again by the Members which was laid before this House on 1 June, be approved. who are at the Chair, Mr. Speaker, the debate provides me with the opportunity to wish you well. I understand FAMILY LAW the congratulations, and I wish you well in your very That the draft Child Support Collection and Enforcement difficult task and recognise the courage that you have (Deduction Orders) (Amendment) Regulations 2009, which were displayed in taking it on. My job tonight, however, is to laid before this House on 3 June, be approved. talk about assaults on taxi drivers and the need to protect them further than we might have done so far. DEFENCE I set the scene by pointing out that violence against That the draft Armed Forces, Army, Air Force and Naval taxi drivers has increased sizeably over the past decade. Discipline Acts (Continuation) Order 2009, which was laid before To be fair to the Government, they have recognised that this House on 13 May, be approved. on a number of occasions. I might add, however, that That the draft Armed Forces (Enlistment) Regulations 2009, the increase is linked—there is now some evidence of which were laid before this House on 5 May, be approved. the linkage—with the rise in late-night drinking in our That the draft Armed Forces (Part 5 of the Armed Forces major town centres, given the unsociable hours that taxi Act 2006) Regulations 2009, which were laid before this House on drivers work and the fact that people come out of clubs 19 May, be approved.—(David Wright.) at 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning and then spend perhaps Question agreed to. another half an hour in the kebab house before seeking a taxi. Those two factors are important in the increase BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE in violence. Ordered, I do not need to tell the Minister about the vital importance of taxis to the transport industry. However, That, in respect of the Parliamentary Standards Bill, notices of Amendments, new Clauses and new Schedules to be moved in that importance is not well understood by many in local Committee may be accepted by the Clerks at the Table before the government. For instance, five or six years ago, Bill has been read a second time.—(David Wright.) Northamptonshire county council undertook a multi-modal study costing some £750,000. It might surprise the Minister to know that taxis were not included in that study, yet we are talking about an industry that employs 340,000 people. The latest figures to hand show that there are 71,500 Hackney cab drivers and more than 250,000 private-hire drivers. The industry makes about 700 million taxi journeys a year, which means an average of roughly 11 journeys for each member of the population. About £3 billion is spent on fares each year. We are therefore talking about a sizeable industry that plays a major role in our public transportation. It is important to recognise that. I do not need to tell the Minister that taxi drivers are often alone with their customers in their cabs, and are therefore highly vulnerable. We need to bear that in mind quite seriously. Taxi drivers work on the front line of transportation and in the late hours, not least because no other transportation is available then. Their customers are unknown to them and they often pick them up in the very dimmest of light. Whereas the Minister and I might be able to spot an undesirable customer in the light of day, it is difficult for taxi drivers to do that. Taxi drivers also take home groups of more than one person. Late at night, their customers are often the worse for drink. Those are difficult circumstances for any service provider to deal with customers in. Taxi drivers carry out a vital function in some of the most difficult circumstances that we might imagine, and they pay a price. Taxi drivers are under attack. The figures are not only clear; they are quite horrifying. There were 51 murders in the private-hire and Hackney cab industry over a 15-year period, which means an average of a little over three a year. That is a frightening figure in an 913 Taxi Drivers (Assault)24 JUNE 2009 Taxi Drivers (Assault) 914 industry that is about providing a service during antisocial The cost to the nation of dealing with attacks on taxi hours to a customer base that often has no alternative. drivers is remarkably high. The estimated cost of In truth, that might be a comment on our society, investigating the 51 murders over 15 years was £77.7 million. although it is not my purpose to talk about that this The cost of each investigation of violence against a evening. person in relation to taxi drivers was £3,036 for each Let me give some examples of taxi drivers who were attack. That is quite a lot of money but, bearing in murdered. In May 2006, 37-year-old Mahmood Ahmed, mind the crime, it is a price that we have to pay. It is, a family man, was found stabbed to death in a country however, a price that we would wish not to pay. I know lane in . The post-mortem revealed that he had that the Minister feels the same. If we add social security been hit hard on the head with a blunt instrument from and loss of earnings, the total cost to the country over behind—that is an important fact. In May 2007, in those 15 years is sizeable. I have been given a figure, but Gravesham, Kent, a 70-year-old grandfather, Gian Chand I think that it is a mistake, so I shall not read it out, Bajar, was attacked and had the proceeds of that evening’s because I do not want it to go on the record. A sizeable work stolen. The attackers then took his taxi by force, amount is involved, nevertheless, and we need to take ran over him and left him to die in the street. He died in that into account. hospital, and his car was found abandoned, having been There is action that we can take to help taxi drivers. set on fire, a mile from the site of the attack. In 2005, There is a need for automatic protection between taxi Mr. Colin Winstone, aged 44 and from Bristol, was drivers and their customers. That means screens in hire found dead after being stabbed outside the Old Fox Inn cars. Screens could be purchased to stop attacks from at Easton, Bristol. Those three cases illuminate the fact the rear, which is where many attacks emanate from in that these are family people doing an important job, non-Hackney cab taxis. There would be a double benefit who meet a violent end that horrifies us all. because, sadly, there are reports of unwanted sexual In addition to murders, there are thousands of attacks. approaches made to young ladies late in the night and Only last month in the Halifax area, a taxi driver named screens would stop that happening. There are good Amjad Farooq, aged 35, was violently attacked. He social reasons to encourage a simple answer for authorities sustained serious head injuries, was beaten unconscious, that give licences to taxi cabs, and it would be easy to had his car stolen and was hospitalised for a considerable introduce a requirement to ensure that screens were time. In June 2009—only this month—another driver, fitted in non-Hackney taxi cabs—if we were willing to whose name I was unable to get, was robbed at knifepoint do so. by three men in Burnage, Manchester. In November In March, Mr. Bryan Roland, general secretary of 2008, another taxi driver recovered at home after being the Private Hire Association, fully endorsed in an open struck over the head with what was believed to have letter Safe Shield or shield-type products in cabs for been a handgun. He was attacked by two men in those very reasons. However, and surprisingly, some Normanton, Derby, who then drove off in his taxi. councils will not permit the use of screens. That is quite remarkable. The Minister looks quizzical, but that is the Those are just three examples—six altogether, including information I have. I will write to him about it, although the murders that I have mentioned—of the thousands I am glad that he was as surprised as I was when I of incidents that are inflicted on taxi drivers every year. learned of it. I would like to make the point that race is a major factor in this issue. Although only one third of the Screens are an aid to cutting violence against taxi trade’s drivers are from our ethnic minority communities, drivers, as is CCTV. In Sheffield, a local taxi company two thirds of the attacks are on people from those had problems with assaults on its drivers. Over Christmas communities. I know that the Minister does not need 2006, it suffered 400 incidents of violence. It was so me to underline that point to him, as he is aware of it worried that it paid for in-car cameras—an expensive and understands the horror of that aspect of these exercise. The result? In 2007, only six incidents occurred. crimes. What a tremendous deterrent and a 98.5 per cent. reduction on the previous year thanks to CCTV. In Sadly, taxi drivers lack faith in justice system, and Blackburn, Lancashire, there were 140 crimes—one for many attacks are not reported. A survey carried out in every five such vehicles on the road. Fourteen cars were Portsmouth in 2008 showed that, of the 396 drivers who fitted with CCTV equipment as part of a pilot scheme, responded, 60 per cent. had been a victim of crime in with council help. That increased security for drivers the past 12 months. It also showed that 70 per cent. and passengers. admitted not reporting incidents to the police, and that the most common reason for that was that they did not There are ways to deal with these problems, therefore, think the police would be interested. We need to take and the London Taxi Network is another. The Minister that on board. Rightly or wrongly, that is the general will know that 4,500 London taxi drivers signed up to impression that people have, and we have to deal with Dial-a-Cab and Radio Taxis Group, which provided that. We cannot afford to have a sizeable part of our enhanced security. I could go on. He will also know community believing that the police are not interested. about the Taxi Marshals scheme. It is another way in Action needs to be taken in that regard. which local authorities in particular can help in this respect. As I have said, taxi drivers do not have faith in the I bring your attention, Mr. Speaker, to an Adjournment justice system. Equally, the evidence suggests that, in debate that I held on this very subject on 1 May 2008. certain parts of the country, the relationship between On the point about CCTV, I said: police and taxi drivers is simply not good enough. That “There are problems, however. The units cost between £700 and is a pretty disturbing indictment, yet that is what the £1,000 a car, and we know that most taxi drivers are self-employed evidence shows. I fear that we are not in a position to and do not have that sort of capital. I am told that the cost of refute it, but we are in a position to try to do something production is only £80 and that the rest is maintenance and about it. back-up.”—[Official Report, 1 May 2008; Vol. 475, c. 547.] 915 Taxi Drivers (Assault)24 JUNE 2009 Taxi Drivers (Assault) 916

[Mr. Brian Binley] We have now published the findings of our national research on the personal security of taxi and private I asked whether the Government would look into that. I hire vehicle drivers. Reading the Hansard report of last did not receive an answer at the time, so I hope the year’s debate, I noted the frustration that the hon. Minister can come back with information that would be Gentleman experienced in trying simply to obtain an encouraging to taxi drivers vis-à-vis the cost and perhaps executive summary of the research. It was particularly with ways that we can help to encourage the purchase of depressing to note from that research that Asian and CCTV cameras. other ethnic-minority drivers appear to have been subject A year ago, I asked the Minister who responded to to higher levels of abuse, much of which is racist in the debate about local authorities encouraging the use content. It was equally depressing to note that very few of screens. It might almost be in the Government’s such incidents are reported to the police. I shall say thinking to say that screens ought to be fitted as a basic more about that later, but let me now pay tribute to the requirement in non-Hackney cab taxis. Will this Minister hon. Gentleman for highlighting the fact that a be kind enough to come back to me on that issue? disproportionate number of victims are from ethnic I ask the Minister to consider ways to improve minorities. There is no reason at all why they should relationships between taxi drivers and the police, if only suffer more than anyone else. No one should suffer as a to get rid of the perception among taxi drivers that the result of crime, irrespective of ethnicity or faith. police do not care. Perhaps the police could do a little Although the report has assisted our understanding more to protect both the safety of taxicab customers of the issues, we have also undertaken a constructive and, equally important, that of their drivers. initiative to help taxi and private hire vehicle drivers to As I said at the beginning of my speech, I feel that the enhance their own personal security. We have prepared Government have a responsibility. The drinking laws and published guidance for drivers, in a convenient changed, and the House quite properly accepted that, leaflet form, on measures that they can take in order to but that change has had results with which most other stay safe. In recognition of the differences between the people must be unhappy. We must address the side-effects trades, we published two separate leaflets, one for taxi of the increasing late-night drinking in our towns and drivers and one for private hire vehicle drivers. We cities, which has led to more attacks on taxis. distributed many thousands of copies through local I believe that taxi drivers seek real and meaningful licensing authorities to ensure that every taxi and PHV answers and, perhaps, action from the Government. I driver in the country could have one. hope that the Government will be able to give us some The principle underlying the leaflets is that those who reassurance, and give the taxi drivers who serve our serve the travelling public are entitled to do their work community in such an important way a little confidence in safety and without abuse. The leaflets include practical that we may do a bit more to minimise a problem that is advice on how to reduce the risk of violence, and also clearly of great import to their industry. identify action that should be taken to deal with threatening behaviour and attacks. They were drawn up with the 7.51 pm help of the taxi and private hire vehicle trades. That is The Minister of State, Department for Transport an example of our consulting rather than imposing our (Mr. ): I join the hon. Member for own ideas and solutions. We have also published guidance Northampton, South (Mr. Binley) in welcoming you to for crime and disorder reduction partnerships on ways your new position, Mr. Speaker. We both look forward in which they can work with the transport industry— to catching your eye on many occasions in the future. including the taxi and private hire vehicle trades—to help to reduce crime and the fear of crime. That includes I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for initiating the attempting to reduce the number of assaults on taxi and annual event at which he rightly holds the Government private hire vehicle drivers. to account on the serious issue of what we are doing about the safety of taxi drivers. I think it important for The best practice guidance that the Department produces him to do so. I read the Hansard report of last year’s on taxi and private hire vehicle licensing is a useful tool debate on the subject, and I have news of some of the in assisting local licensing authorities in drawing up progress that we have made over the past 12 months. In suitable licensing policies. The hon. Gentleman referred preparation for the debate, I not only did the usual to some initiatives, including the installation in cabs of things such as speaking to officials but read a couple of measures to improve drivers’ personal security, such as editions of Private Hire and Taxi Monthly, which includes CCTV or having a screen between the driver and the a section in which victims of the assaults referred to by passenger. The guidance urged local authorities to look the hon. Gentleman describe what happened to them. into that, which is why I was surprised that the hon. The debate is of interest not only to people who work Gentleman mentioned an example of a council discouraging as taxi and private hire vehicle drivers, but to all who are it, and I want to investigate that and write to him concerned with the safety of people who work in the about it. transport sector. It is truly appalling that drivers who We are now consulting on a revised version of the are, after all, providing a service for the public should be guidance. We propose that it should encourage local fearful about the prospect of getting through the working licensing authorities to draw up signs or notices that day unscathed, or, worse still, should have to endure drivers could display in their cabs setting out what abuse or violence. That is why we are keen to do what passengers can expect from drivers and what drivers we can to help. I hope that once the hon. Gentleman should be able to expect from passengers. That is a new has heard what I have to say about the progress made initiative, which we hope will appeal to local licensing last year he will, with renewed vigour, ensure that this is authorities—and to such an extent that they will want an annual event, so that he can take us to task and make to produce their own notices in consultation with the us go even further. local trade. 917 Taxi Drivers (Assault)24 JUNE 2009 Taxi Drivers (Assault) 918

We know that fare disputes are a major cause of It should be borne in mind that the sort of measures potential confrontation between passengers and drivers—a that would enhance drivers’ personal security might reading of the trade journals highlights that. We would also have a beneficial effect on passenger safety. For hope that the advice in the leaflets, together with any example, a lone female at a city centre taxi rank in the local notices that licensing authorities decide to produce, early hours of the morning might appreciate the role of will lead to a reduction in the number of such disputes. a taxi marshal in maintaining order at the rank, and the On the subject of fares, the hon. Gentleman will be use of CCTV and security shields in saloon car taxis pleased to learn that we are in discussions with the and private hire vehicles might provide passengers with Association of Chief Police Officers on ways to raise an added degree of reassurance—a point made by the awareness of the legal position on “bilking”—the commonly hon. Gentleman in his excellent speech. used term for passengers making off without paying I reiterate what I said in last year’s Adjournment their fare. As a number of the hon. Gentleman’s friends debate about violence against taxi and private hire are taxi drivers, he will know that that is a big issue in vehicle drivers: those in that trade should report all the industry, and a source of huge tension. We hope incidents to the police and the appropriate local community ACPO will be able to help in this area. safety forums. The report that I mentioned earlier made I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree that we it clear that many incidents go unreported to the police, have taken a number of actions to reduce the number of and that is a tremendous shame. I recognise that reporting assaults on taxi and private hire vehicle drivers. However, incidents means time away from work, and some may we are not complacent, which is why it is important that fear reprisals, but non-reporting also means that the he continues to hold us to account. We know that far police can be unaware of the type and scale of the too many drivers are still putting up with verbal, and, problems that drivers face. I accept that the police need indeed, physical, abuse far too often—let alone the to redouble their efforts to win the trust and confidence murders to which the hon. Gentleman has referred. of taxi drivers, as they have done in other areas of our I believe that the key to reducing the number of society, so that more crime is reported. assaults is effective partnership-working at local level. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that The taxi and private hire vehicle trades need to work progress has been made since last year, but that there is with the local police, licensing authorities and community no magic silver bullet or panacea that will solve these safety partnerships to highlight their concerns and to problems. It is a terrible shame that we live in a society seek suitable solutions. That may lead to the funding of in which people still think that they can abuse taxi in-car CCTV cameras, for example, or shields between drivers verbally or physically and get away without the driver and the passenger compartment, or to the sanction from the criminal justice system. We look deployment of taxi marshals at taxi rank hot spots. I forward to working further with the trade, the police, know that Northampton has taxi marshals, so the hon. local licensing authorities, the and the Gentleman will be aware of that. hon. Gentleman to ensure that we can find solutions to I know that there are a number of such initiatives some of the challenges that he poses. I again congratulate around the country, and I urge the trade to learn the him and thank him for raising these important issues. lessons from the good practice that already exists, and Question put and agreed to. also to be aware of the potential sources of funding for security measures. That could be local authority funding, community safety partnership funding or even—the hon. Gentleman will enjoy this—EU funding. We must 8pm not cut off any funding routes. House adjourned.

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became resented by key players in Lebanese political Westminster Hall life, who believed that there was inordinate interference in the domestic, political and economic life of the Wednesday 24 June 2009 country. A third source of criticism is the ties between Syria and Iran, which rose initially out of a shared fear and [MR.MARTIN CATON in the Chair] dislike of Saddam Hussein. Although they may have close trading and economic ties, Iran is a theocratic Middle East state, whereas Syria is constitutionally secular. Different Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting religious groupings co-exist extremely well in Syria and be now adjourned.—(Lyn Brown.) Islamic fundamentalism is simply not tolerated. A final source of criticism is Syria’s support— shared by Iran—of 9.30 am Hezbollah and Hamas, with their terrorist attacks on Mr. Richard Spring (West Suffolk) (Con): It is a Israeli citizens. pleasure to have you presiding over our proceedings, The central thesis of my remarks is that those important Mr. Caton. I welcome the Minister to his new role and issues must be put in context or updated to reflect wish him well in it. I am reminded of Vera Lynn’s “We’ll current realities in a continuing process of mutual Meet Again”, because we come together every few exploration between our two countries. years. I look forward to what he has to say on this A chunk of Syria—the Golan heights—is illegally important subject. occupied by Israel. The area holds no strategic value for The middle east may not be our near geographical Israel. In 2000, the late President Hafez Assad came neighbour, but we cannot escape from our involvement close to a deal with Israel that included the return of the in the region. That can be seen throughout history with Golan heights and a clear recognition of the state of the magnificent crusader castles across Syria, our support Israel. Israel continues to have concerns about Iranian for the Arab revolts against the Ottoman empire, the and Syrian support for Hezbollah. However, it is noteworthy founding of the state of Israel, and the construction how acquiescent Hezbollah was when Israel invaded and subsequent loss of the Suez canal. The list could go Gaza. on. Also noteworthy is that Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah This is not a moment to discuss the merits of the fully accepted the results of the recent Lebanese elections. recent invasion of Iraq. Suffice it to say that it impaired It has been a fundamental view of Syria that Hezbollah a number of our relationships in the region. Today, is a political reality in Lebanon and that it should be violence on the streets of Gaza inflames passions on the seen as such. Latterly, it has worked hard to encourage streets of our country. Whether we like it or not, we change in the political topography of Lebanon to entrench cannot escape from the realities of our past and current Hezbollah as part of the democratic political process. involvement. In that, we are blessed with outstanding Relations between Syria and virtually all Lebanese political diplomats, whose knowledge of the middle east is leaders have improved dramatically with many ministerial unsurpassed. When their judgments have been ignored, visits and the exchange of ambassadors, which was it has led inevitably to difficulties for us. inconceivable until recently. In the past few weeks, we have seen extraordinarily Syria was told that its role in the lead-up to the successful and peaceful elections in Lebanon, an inspiring Lebanese elections would be observed carefully. The speech in Cairo by President Obama, post-election turmoil outcome was beyond everybody’s expectations. I am in Iran and Bibi Netanyahu implicitly acknowledging pleased that our Government, including our ambassador the problems brought by the growth of settlements. in Beirut, have met with the political arm of Hezbollah, I should like to concentrate on Syria, which has been thus recognising its electoral legitimacy. remarkably stable in the past decade under a new and I have said many times to Israeli friends that a core younger President. At no stage in the long history of the impetus to Hezbollah’s military activities would be changed region could Syria sensibly have been ignored. I declare if Israel returned the Golan heights to Syria. Without an interest as a director of the British Syrian Society, that, there will be no comprehensive and enduring sense which seeks at all levels to build up our bilateral relationship. of security for Israel on its northern border. The Turkish I pay particular tribute to two individuals who dedicated Government sought to broker talks between the two themselves so successfully to that task, Dr. Fawaz Akhras countries. We wait to see whether Syria’s offer to reopen and the late Sir David Gore-Booth, who was a distinguished talks with Israel will be taken up by Mr. Netanyahu. His diplomat. Foreign Affairs Minister, Avigdor Lieberman, has so Having spoken out against the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, far explicitly rejected discussion of the Golan heights, Syria strongly opposed the invasion of Iraq in 2003. In but these are early days. expressing the notion of an axis of evil, the United No hon. Member can have failed to be concerned States took a hostile view of Syria. It was widely believed about the recent events in Iran. by Syrians that America would invade them, too. There is no doubt that jihadis crossed from Syria into Iraq Mr. Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): I hear what across a long border that is difficult to police. It was a my hon. Friend says about the importance of bringing source of fury that some of those individuals may have peace on Israel’s northern border, particularly with been directly or indirectly responsible for the loss life respect to the Golan issue. Does he agree that hon. among coalition forces. Members from all parties must encourage the Israeli A second source of criticism of Syria stems from the Government to engage with Syria, whether through a civil war in Lebanon, after which Syrian military forces Turkish intermediary or any other intermediary, because were invited to help restore order. In time, their role talking is better than not talking? 241WH Middle East24 JUNE 2009 Middle East 242WH

Mr. Spring: My hon. Friend is right. I pay tribute to As I mentioned, there have been extraordinary events him for the work that he has done to develop that in Iran in the past few weeks, and there are concerns argument. I am sure that he will agree that, although a about the views of senior Iranian figures. The truth of comprehensive settlement in the region would be desirable, the matter is that Iran unreservedly supports Hezbollah that is presenting huge difficulties, not least because of and Hamas. As I said, it is in Israel’s vital strategic the seemingly irreconcilable tensions between Fatah interest to seek to minimise the impact of Iran’s stated and Hamas. It would be a shame if that was a major aim to export Islamic revolution in the form expressed. stumbling block or distraction to a Syrian track, because Israel enjoys workable relations with Egypt and Jordan— it is in Israel’s interest to have the security to which he that should be the role model—and it should seek to alluded. We should encourage the Israelis to consider develop a pragmatic relationship with its northern the Syrian offer to continue the exploration, brokered neighbours. Syria has made its position clear: a return by the Turks. of the Golan heights is part of a full normalisation of relations. Israel should simply road test that offer without Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman delay. If successful, the prize would be to enhance its will be aware that there has been no ministerial visit to own security and stability, although much work would Iran for about six years. Does he agree that now might have to be done and, of course, much reassurance needs be the time for the Foreign Secretary to go over there to to be given. strengthen our dialogue and engagement with Iran, so At different times, Syria has had poor relations with that we can stop the worrying escalation? Jaw-jaw is other Arab countries. However, that is no longer the better than the alternative. Does the hon. Gentleman case. The Syria-Saudi Arabia relationship is particularly agree that that is a risk worth taking? important, and is back on track. There have been a number of welcome ministerial exchanges between Baghdad Mr. Spring: The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the and Damascus. The criticism of the border crossings, to long-term significance of a relationship between Iran which I alluded, has substantially evaporated and help and the United Kingdom. However, at a moment when has been given to Syria to achieve that. Exploration of two of our diplomats have just been expelled from greater commercial ties between Syria and Iraq continues Tehran for no reason—apparently, the British Government to take place. are behind the protests on the streets of Tehran, which Two other facets of Syrian life bear examination. is an interesting take on events—the British Government Syria has developed a culture that is unique in the are absolutely right in the circumstances to react by region, perhaps because its history has been marked by expelling two diplomats from London. Although we so many invasions and occupiers—from the Romans hope that calm will prevail in the long-run and that and the Persians, to the Umayyads, the Ottomans and logic will enter into the equation, I do not agree with the the French. More than a century ago, Gertrude Bell timing suggested by the hon. Gentleman. wrote about that with amazement in her diaries. The Grand Mufti of Syria radiates a generosity of spirit and Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): May understanding, which personifies the attitudes of the I take the hon. Gentleman back to the question of the Muslim majority to the religious minorities. Golan, which he mentioned earlier? He referred to the Golan heights. We all refer to the area as that, but in so I welcome the recent official visit to London by the doing, we minimise its importance. It is an 1,800 sq km Syrian Minister of Religious Affairs to discuss Syria’s plateau, where the rainfall is higher than in Damascus. approach to key sensitive matters, including countering It is of great strategic significance. There are more than radicalisation. It is worth noting that the aim of what 346,000 displaced persons from the Golan, but that is was, from every possible view point, an important visit often treated almost as a side issue to achieving a was to represent the Syrian model of moderate Islam, comprehensive middle east peace. The area is about which combats terrorism and rejects extremism. The more than that; it is absolutely central—strategically for visit resulted in an offer to send a group of Muslim Syria in terms of natural resources and other things, but scholars to lecture at the Islamic centres in the United also in terms of doing right by those 346,000 displaced Kingdom on moderate Islam as practised in Syria. The persons. visit also drew on Syria’s willingness to train British imams in Syria according to a curriculum approved by Mr. Spring: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the United Kingdom. The Ministry of Religious Affairs mentioning the humanitarian aspect. I certainly know in Syria has indicated a willingness to teach British individuals whose family origins lie in the Golan heights. students who want to study Arabic and sharia for four Of course, the humanitarian tragedies that abound in years at the international institute for Arabic and sharia, the region are what we are seeking to address. That so that they can become advocates of moderation. applies on all sides of the equation. Although the I say to the Minister that at a time when relationships Golan heights are occupied, I do not think that even are very fractious and we have seen a most disagreeable people in the Israel defence forces regard them as increase in Islamophobia and, indeed, anti-Semitism in strategically significant. However, the matter will sour our country, it is precisely through such moderation the relationship between Syria and Israel, which is why and contact that Syria can play a valuable role. I know some sort of solution to the problem—a solution was the Minister will welcome that visit and the return visit nearly arrived at in 2000—could take the whole process that took place to Syria by British Muslims to discuss forward. I hope that the new Government in Israel will messages of peace from Islam. That collective generosity see the matter in those terms because the flow of the of spirit has enabled about 1 million Iraqis, a significant issue into the Hezbollah argument, with which the hon. number of whom are Christians, to find sanctuary in Gentleman will be very familiar, means that it is important Syria, which is a huge burden on a country of some to Israel’s own long-term security to address the problem. 20 million. 243WH Middle East24 JUNE 2009 Middle East 244WH

Refugee children go to school free up to the 12th 9.49 am grade and medical care is available on the same basis as Mr. Paul Goodman (Wycombe) (Con): I shall be it is to the local population. This year, the United extremely brief, Mr. Caton. Nations High Commissioner for Refugees launched an appeal for $150 million. It would be interesting to hear I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for West from the Minister how Britain is assisting in what the Suffolk (Mr. Spring) on obtaining this extremely important UNHCR has described to me as—this is well known to debate. He concentrated necessarily on Syria and Britain’s be the case—an internationally under-recognised refugee strategic interests abroad. He also touched on Britain’s crisis, which, of course, arises directly out of our invasion security interests at home, and it is that point that I of Iraq. would like briefly to amplify. It is undeniable that the main threat to our domestic It is gratifying that, after a long period, relations security at present comes from those who mistakenly between Syria and Britain have improved considerably. claim and exercise violent extremism in the name of I hope that the Minister will go there soon, as his Islam. As the House has repeatedly heard, I have a predecessor and the Foreign Secretary have done. Of particular interest in this issue as the Conservative course, Opposition parties—including my hon. Friend Member with the largest number and proportion of the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) and the Muslim constituents. shadow Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague)—initiated It is important to appreciate that Syria is, in strictly a dialogue some time before. Many European politicians religious terms, an extremely moderate place, as my have now visited Damascus. hon. Friend said—he has great experience of the country— and, on the Islamic map worldwide, it is important as There continues to be attempts to liberalise and the heartland of traditional classical Islam. modernise the Syrian economy through banking and Syria is important for three reasons. First, as my hon. investment code reforms and the establishment of a Friend said, it contains Damascus, which is an important fledgling stock exchange. Since 2005, the EU-Syria historical site and the home of the Umayyad dynasty. association agreement has been frozen. It is hoped that, Secondly, it is the home of many well-known ulema and finally, the agreement will be signed this year, which will scholars such as Ahmad Hassoun, the Grand Mufti, encourage trade flows between Europe and Syria and whom my hon. Friend referred to, Dr. Mohammed the lowering of any tariff barriers. That will compel and al-Buti, Sheikh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi and others. encourage the Syrian Government to bring forward Those names may not be well known to us, but they are further reforms, especially at a time of diminishing oil well known to British Muslims who have an abiding reserves. interest in what scholars and ulema in the Arab world There is now open discussion about the transfer of have to say. Thirdly, Syria is a centre of a classical gas via Syria and Turkey from some of the main gas Islamic world view that is fundamentally at odds with producers to the east and Qatar. There is concern the modern conception of a sharia state, particularly throughout Europe about increasing dependence on one that is brought into being by violence. Russian gas supplies. An opportunity is presenting itself Given all that, and despite political difficulty, I have to diversify supply to the Mediterranean, and the strategic three quick questions for the Minister. In essence, they significance of that is obvious. In the end, real movement follow up what my hon. Friend said. First, given how in the region will be brought about by focused US seriously many British Muslims take the scholarship involvement. The Obama Administration seem to have and expertise of Syrian ulema and scholars, will there made a concerted effort to follow a fresh approach to be opportunities to bring some of those scholars here, the region in particular and the Islamic world in general. perhaps as part of a radical middle-way programme or Numerous visits to Damascus by US Government something like it? Secondly, in reverse, will there be representatives signal that engagement, and the involvement opportunities in the future to take British imams and of George Mitchell, who played such a significant role scholars to Syria? I understand—my hon. Friend referred in Northern Ireland, is to be welcomed. Nevertheless, briefly to this—that the Quilliam Foundation and others the US currently has no ambassador in Damascus, and recently went to Syria for theological and political a wholly counter-productive boycott is still in place. Of discussions that I gather were very lively. course, concerns remain about human rights violations Finally, what opportunities does the Minister see for in a number of Arab countries, and controversy surrounds British students to go to Syria to study the traditional the access of the International Atomic Energy Agency classical Islam that is so much at odds with the violent in Syria. extremism that is a threat to our security and to the I shall conclude by coming back to where I started. security of other countries, too? Many of the criticisms of Syria during the past decade now appear to be out of date. In the right circumstances, 9.53 am Syria could help to unlock a whole series of huge challenges—whether in relation to the security of Israel, Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): I the actions of Hezbollah or Hamas, or through its had not intended to speak other than to intervene in the long-standing relationship with Iran. The terms “dialogue” debate, Mr. Caton, but perhaps I could ask my hon. and “road test” once again spring to mind. Our bilateral Friend the Minister to comment on just a couple of relationship is far from perfect, but we can play a part in points. trying to make continuing progress. In so doing, we I congratulate the hon. Member for West Suffolk would fulfil our historic engagement in the region, (Mr. Spring) and also put on the record that this year which, regrettably, has become so lamentably absent, was a first for some years in that an official Inter- greatly to our country’s cost. 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[Richard Burden] be a friend. He shows great understanding of the issues and the countries involved, and he made his contribution to Syria took place in January. I was a member of the with characteristic courtesy to the House and other delegation, which was led by my right hon. Friend the Members. He knows much more about the issue than I Member for Streatham (Keith Hill). In terms of building ever will. understanding, contacts and dialogue between UK and I called a meeting in the House on Monday evening Syrian parliamentarians, the visit was very worthwhile of Iraqi Christians, and I would like to say just a few indeed. I hope that further such exchanges will continue, words about it. It was a bit harrowing: many difficult in addition to the good work that the hon. Member for stories were told of kidnappings, and violence, extortion West Suffolk does through the all-party group on Syria and threats against various minorities. Several witnesses and the British Syrian Society. at the meeting explained the problems of split families; The hon. Gentleman referred to Iraqi refugees in that is, families that have been separated, with members Syria, which is one of the issues that I would like to scattered around various countries including Iraq, Syria raise with the Minister. As the hon. Gentleman said, it and Jordan, and as far afield as Scandinavia, north is a major issue for us because of our involvement in the Africa and this country. The principle of family reunion situation that led to those refugees being in Syria, but it is given insufficient weight by our Government and is also a major issue for Syria. According to the United other Governments, the UNHCR and other organisations. Nations High Commission for Refugees, which we met I am sure that the Minister is aware of that, and will while we were there, there are 1.2 million Iraqi refugees consider carefully what the Government can do to lead with valid visas in Syria at present. I give credit to Syria, the international field in trying to put those families which gives them access to services and at least primary back together, and to stop the persecution of Iraqi education. It has done much more than several other Christians. countries would have done. There is clearly a backlog of old asylum claims in the However, there is still an issue for Syria, because of UK, which is another urgent issue— the drain on its resources, but perhaps most of all for the Iraqi refugees themselves. We met several of them. Mr. Spring: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the We visited several UNHCR installations, including its courtesy of his comments. He might not be aware that reception centre, and we were able to speak to and hear although a substantial percentage of Iraqi refugees in first hand from Iraqi refugees about their situation, Syria are Christians, they come from a variety of faiths, which is something that we need to address. but do not live in separate conditions. It is interesting The international community needs greater coherence how the pervasive culture of Syria has influenced them, around its approach to repatriation: would it be viable, and that the tensions that existed between those and, if so, when and how are pathways to be built communities in Iraq have evaporated as they live side by towards it? However, it also needs to grasp much more side in Syria. consistently the question of resettlement. Several Iraqi refugees told us that, because of all kinds of changes in Bob Spink: I am grateful for that clarification. My Iraq and elsewhere, they were now looking at resettlement. comments were aimed essentially at the difficulties that If that is to be dealt with properly, it requires a co-ordinated arise in Iraq rather than in Syria. As with Thailand and response from the international community. The UNHCR Burma, neighbouring countries often act as host and has a great deal to say about that. We need to listen to suffer great pressure from the refugee problem, but do what it has to say, because it is a major issue. magnificent work. We must encourage them to continue My second point on refugees concerns Palestinian that, and we must tackle the refugee problem worldwide. refugees in Syria. I am not speaking particularly of I am sure that the Minister has taken on that message. I those Palestinian refugees who are in Syria as a result of thank you, Mr. Caton, for allowing me to give it. events in 1948 or 1967 but rather those who are in Syria or on its borders as a result of the conflict in Iraq. 10.1 am About 300 Palestinian refugees currently live in a camp in the desert—in essence, they are cut off from many Mr. Roger Godsiff (Birmingham, Sparkbrook and facilities. Again, that is a humanitarian issue that we Small Heath) (Lab): Like other hon. Members, I did not need to address. intend to make a speech today, but I was galvanised into doing so by the eloquence of my very good friend, the My hon. Friend the Minister will not have come here hon. Member for West Suffolk (Mr. Spring) and his today prepared to speak about the Palestinian refugees, excellent speech. I will make a couple of short points. but I would ask him, if he is not able to say much about them today, to look into the situation, and to consider I agree with the hon. Gentleman that a comprehensive what we and the international community are doing to resolution of the intractable problems in the middle east try to ease their plight. To some extent, they are the requires engagement with Syria. As he rightly pointed forgotten refugees arising out of the Iraq conflict, but out, the British Syrian Society has played a valuable they deserve to be forgotten no longer. role in seeking to build relations with that country, and I pay tribute to those who have been involved. I am honoured to be a member of its board. 9.58 am My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Like others, I did not (Richard Burden) made the valid point that it is in come here intending to speak this morning, Mr. Caton, Israel’s interest to engage with Syria, but there will be but I am tempted to my feet. I congratulate and thank positive engagement only if the Golan issue is resolved. my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk He rightly said that the Golan heights are often referred (Mr. Spring)—I hope that he still considers himself to to as a mountain, but it is a region, and a large one 247WH Middle East24 JUNE 2009 Middle East 248WH housing many people, many of whom, sadly, have been This is a good time to debate Syria and the middle displaced. Those issues must be resolved because that is east, not least because of recent developments in the crucial to a lasting normalisation of relations between region and the change in the US’s approach to the Syria and Israel. It is obvious from my discussions in middle east. Obama has made engaging with Syria a Syria that the Syrian Government are willing, able and key point of his foreign policy, which is a welcome want to engage with western Governments and to play a change from the Bush years, and is a cause for optimism. part in bringing about lasting normalisation and a just As has been outlined, such engagement with Syria is settlement of the intractable problems in the middle vital to ensuring a peaceful withdrawal from Iraq, east. maintaining peace and stability in Lebanon, and for the The problem is not just the issues between Israel and Arab-Israeli peace process, on which we all so desperately Syria, but the wider issues of the Palestinians and a want more progress. viable Palestinian state. That is not the subject of this Historically, Syria has been more isolated because of debate, but I am becoming more and more sceptical its support for Hezbollah and Hamas, and its close ties about whether there will be a two-state solution. The with Iran, which have given countries reason to be intractable problems between Fatah and Hamas, and cautious in their dealings with Syria. However, I argue the fact that the two parts of an embryonic Palestinian that those are the very reasons why we must engage, state are divided by a piece of land that was Israeli because the influence that Syria has across the region territory prior to 1967 leads me to question more and makes it a vital player. more whether there can be a viable two-state solution. It Recently, George Mitchell, the US envoy for Arab-Israeli is possible that there could eventually be a three or even peace, visited Damascus. That is a hugely positive step. four-state solution in the middle east, but that is not the Traditionally, the UK has been somewhat less hostile subject of this debate. The debate today is about Syria, than the US towards Syria. We have maintained diplomatic our relations with it, and its role in bringing about a relations and engage directly on regional and consular resolution of middle east problems. I commend the issues. That approach must be welcomed, because hon. Member for West Suffolk on initiating it. engagement is the cornerstone of how we can use The hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Goodman) influence with Syria to try to unlock some of the made an excellent point about the role that Syria can problems in that troubled region. play in wider Islamic theology. Under its constitution, The hon. Member for West Suffolk talked about the Syria is a secular state. I am impressed by and admire close links between Syria and Iraq. He said that this is the fact that different religions exist in the state and not the place to go over the arguments about the war, seem to do so in a relationship that is respectful of one and I agree, but later today we have the Opposition-day another’s differences. Like him, however, I am becoming debate on the Iraq inquiry. It is important that that more and more concerned about the export of Wahhabis inquiry, with its broader remit, is also able to consider from Saudi Arabia, and the effect of that on communities the impact that the war had on the wider region and in western countries such as the United Kingdom where Britain’s foreign policy objectives in the wider region, large Muslim populations live. Unless one lives in areas because, as he said, they have been somewhat undermined where that can be seen daily, as he and I do, it is difficult by our actions in Iraq. to understand how destructive Wahhabism can be. However, There is the issue of Syria having allowed insurgents unless we treat the issue seriously and address it, it to cross the border into Iraq, which has made the poses a threat to the cohesion of good community situation there much more difficult. According to the relations in the United Kingdom and other western eighth report of 2006-07 from the Select Committee on countries. I hope that that will be taken on board. Foreign Affairs, the Syria expert Patrick Seale said that It is important to have this debate today. It is important Syria had allowed “a few Jihadists” to “go across that also that the British Government treat seriously the territory” because messages that Syria is sending that it wants to engage “the Syrians do not want the Americans to have too easy a time in and to be fully involved in assisting with bringing about Iraq, because they think that the Americans will win there and a resolution of some of the problems in the middle east. they will be next.” I am sure that the Government are aware that Syria That sense of vulnerability and concern will have been a stands ready, willing and able to help, but that the key motivator in Syria’s decisions. I hope that now, with Golan issue must be resolved. I commend what other the change of approach, the Syrians will have some hon. Members have said. Israel must treat seriously confidence that they will not be next and that that will Syria’s concerns about the Golan, and it must negotiate help to build trust in order for them to clamp down on and come to an agreement with Syria, whether that is a insurgency crossings into Iraq. Obviously, there is a fear bilateral agreement or part of a wider agreement in the with the troop withdrawal and handover that this will middle east. be a vulnerable time in Iraq and insurgency activity could instead increase. 10.8 am The situation of Iraqi refugees in Syria was mentioned (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I congratulate by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Mr. Spring) on Burden). It was interesting for us to hear about his securing this debate and on the way in which he introduced experiences seeing the refugee camps at first hand and it. He clearly has great expertise, and the way in which to hear the positive stories that he had to tell about he outlined the historical context and more recent education and development there, but clearly the situation developments set the tone for an interesting and productive places huge stress on Syria. That strengthens the case debate. I welcome the Minister to his position. I am sure for pointing out to Syria that it is in its interests to that this will be the first of many interesting and enjoyable engage more regionally and to have a prosperous and debates on a wide variety of foreign policy issues. stable Iraq next door, not only to act as a trading 249WH Middle East24 JUNE 2009 Middle East 250WH

[Jo Swinson] UK we have far too much of with our climate, but which in drier areas of the world can be a strategically partner but to facilitate the return of refugees, at an important resource. I think that, increasingly, water will appropriate pace, and to lessen the burden that Syria is replace oil as the key resource that might be in a experiencing. In foreign diplomacy, using the self-interest position to provoke conflict. We need to be aware of of countries to encourage certain behaviour is often the that. most successful approach. With regard to Israel’s approach, Netanyahu was promising before the election not to return the Golan Richard Burden: The hon. Lady is right to say that heights, but there is some cause for optimism, in that his repatriation of some Iraqi refugees will be the right stance may have softened when he told George Mitchell: option, but the point that I was trying to make and the “I am unwilling to commit in advance to a full withdrawal issue that we need to tackle as an international from the Golan Heights.” community—this is certainly the view of a number of the Iraqi refugees themselves—is that a programme for That seems to constitute a move from his pre-election resettlement elsewhere may be the long-term solution position. It is not yet clear whether it could be a for a number of those refugees. In some cases that will concession that he would make later. The basing of be in Syria and the middle east; in other cases it will be Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Damascus gives Syria an in the wider world. We need to think through how that obvious role, potentially, in the peace negotiations. If will be achieved. we can resolve the issue of the Golan heights, Syria might be more willing to exert influence over Hamas to support the peace process. Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, which highlights the importance of Syria being There is a key economic imperative in considering the part of the wider engagement, because creating such a situation with Syria. Its isolation and the suspension of solution will not happen with just one country; it needs the EU trade association agreement, which was mentioned, to be part of a much wider discussion. have clearly caused difficulties for Syria. There is a danger in Syria being too isolated and ending up too Mr. Newmark: During my visits to Syria, I have dependent on Iran. They have obviously had close ties talked about that issue as well. Given the work that the and that is a potential danger. Perhaps if Syria were to Syrian Government have done in absorbing perhaps 1 distance itself a little more from Iran, some of the other million or more refugees and giving them health care, negotiations might end up being easier. Although the education and housing, surely the international community, EU trade association agreement suspension in 2005 was purely on a humanitarian level, should be doing more put in place for sound reasons, it might end up being in giving some sort of funding towards that to support counter-productive, so it is worth considering again the Syrian Government. how we could shift economic incentives to encourage Syria to play a fuller role in the international community, including the trading ties that come with that. Jo Swinson: I certainly think that the Syrian Government should be praised for what they have done. No doubt The situation in Iran is moving incredibly quickly. the humanitarian agencies will be involved, and they Syria will be keeping a close eye on the demonstrations, should be involved. I will not go into all the arguments perhaps with the fear that they might provoke similar about the Iraq war, but particularly where we have unrest in Syria. I am sure that the Minister will mention contributed to problems and to what I view as a terrible the diplomatic developments over the past few days mistake, we have a responsibility to help to clear up the with the expulsion of the diplomats. I am sure that that mess that we have made and to provide such support. is of great concern to us all, as have been the pictures of On Israel and Palestine, I was intrigued by the comments violence on our television screens. Just from a human of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook and point of view, they cannot be ignored. However, I think Small Heath (Mr. Godsiff). I was feeling slightly despondent that it is right that the Government and Britain generally when he talked about being unable to see a two-state have not intervened and sought to tell the Iranians what solution. As someone who supports a two-state solution, to do. History shows that that type of intervention will I thought that perhaps it was going to be a pessimistic not be helpful, so the Government have taken the right comment, but I was interested to hear his suggestion view on the issue. that in fact a three or four-state solution might be the The Government’s approach to Syria is broadly welcome, end point. I do not know whether that will be the case, because regular engagement and making progress step but whether it is two, three or four, the word “solution” by step has to be the right way forward. Syria is clearly is what matters. That is surely the end that we all want. suffering financially because of the EU trade suspension, Clearly, Syria will play a vital role in that. Various US sanctions, the fact that its oil reserves are going hon. Members mentioned the key importance of the down and repeated drought, which goes back to what I Golan heights in getting Syria involved in the peace said about water. There is also the huge burden, which it process. That is obviously a bottom line for the Syrians. has been bearing well—it is living up to its humanitarian Unlike many hon. Members in the debate, I have not responsibilities—in relation to the influx of Iraqi refugees. been to Syria, but I did go to the Golan heights on a trip That brings dangers and opportunities. The situation to Israel some years ago. It is clearly a much contested is difficult for the Syrian people, and if they are allowed piece of land but, as was also pointed out, it is not just a to continue in isolation, they could become closer to territorial dispute. There is the human aspect in terms Iran. However, the UK, the EU and the US have an of displacement. What surprised me somewhat when I opportunity to offer new economic incentives to promote went there was the strategic importance of that land in political reform and co-operation, particularly on Iraq terms of water—that key resource that sometimes in the and the peace process in Israel and Palestine. 251WH Middle East24 JUNE 2009 Middle East 252WH

Engagement in the region, including direct bilateral Mr. Lidington: My hon. Friend puts the point very engagement with Syria, is important. The Government well. The welcome decision in March to reopen the are taking broadly the right approach, but it is right that Damascus securities exchange after half a century of the House continues to discuss these issues. We hope closure was a welcome step. Such moves provide openings that there will continue to be positive developments, but for the British financial services industry, and one thing we should return to the issue regularly. that Syria will need in developing its commerce is capital. When the Minister responds, I would be interested to 10.20 am hear what the Government’s attitude is towards the EU-Syria association agreement. An updated version Mr. (Aylesbury) (Con): I congratulate of the agreement was initialled in December 2008, but my hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk (Mr. Spring) approval awaits a decision by member states. Does on his success in securing the debate. I pay tribute to the Britain regard progress on that updated agreement as work that he has done throughout his time in the House conditional on further improvement in political relationships of Commons to enhance and improve understanding between Europe and Syria, or will it be judged only on between Syria and the United Kingdom. Members economic and commercial criteria? from all political parties have benefited over the years from his expertise and, indeed, his detailed understanding There are also opportunities for the UK in public of the retail opportunities for western visitors to Aleppo administration. Another point that was made to me in and Damascus. He is probably the best guide that a new Damascus was that Syria recognises the need to improve visitor to Syria could have, because, as he showed in his the quality of her public administration and would be opening remarks, he understands its history and the looking to this country and other western partners to important role that it, and Damascus in particular, help in that project. I hope that we can take advantage plays in the religious, cultural and political history of of such opportunities, but, again, there is an issue that I the entire region. want to raise with the Government. In the fairly recent past, there have been exploratory conversations between I want to say a few words about economic issues, London and Damascus about giving such assistance, human rights and regional and foreign policy questions. but they fell foul of the theology of the Department for I want to start, however, by welcoming the steps that the International Development because Syria is not one of Government have taken over the past 12 months or so, the poorest countries in the world. Although improving and that the new United States Administration have the capacity of Syria’s public administration would be taken, to engage with the Government of Syria. For very much in the UK’s national interest, DFID felt that quite a long time, my party’s view has been that nothing it was unable to be of assistance, and as the Minister is to be gained from seeking to isolate the Syrian and I know, the Foreign Office budget is not exactly Government. Although there remain profound differences overflowing with gold pieces. There is therefore an issue of interest and attitude between this country and Syria, for the Government to consider. Offering Syria such our national interest has not been served by pursuing a help may accord with our national interest, but the ways policy of isolating Damascus, and recent history shows of providing it are being blocked. that such a policy has, if anything, been counter-productive. I therefore welcome the steps taken by the Foreign On human rights, the evidence of religious toleration Secretary and the US Administration in recent months, within Syria’s overall secular framework is striking. It is and I wish them success. at its most striking when one goes to the ancient central mosque in Damascus and sees the Christian shrine to However, it is also important that we seek engagement the head of John the Baptist in the centre of the Muslim not simply for its own sake, but with a view to pursuing prayer hall. Although we rightly make, and should our national interests in the broadest sense of the term, continue to make, many criticisms of Syria’s human and that brings me to economic development. Taking rights record, we should applaud its record of religious steps to strengthen the economic links between Syria toleration and the freedom that Christian Churches, in and the UK will bring opportunities for our two countries. particular, have had to thrive at a time when they have During my visit to Damascus in January, more than one been under huge pressure in much of the middle east. senior Syrian leader clearly told me that the UK was My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe allowing other European countries to steal a march on (Mr. Goodman) made a good point when he argued for it in terms of involvement in developing the Syrian steps to be taken to strengthen contact between Muslim economy. If there are contracts and jobs going, I would religious scholars in Syria and their counterparts in the like them to go to the UK, rather than to Germany, UK. When I met the Syrian Minister for Religious France or Italy. Affairs at the Oxford centre for Islamic studies, during his visit here, it seemed to me that he was interested in Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): I apologise pursuing such an objective, and I hope that the Government for being so late, but I was speaking at a conference, and will support that. I have come straight here. I want to follow on from my I hope, also, that the Minister will confirm that, while hon. Friend’s point, because I was in Damascus in seeking better relations with Syria, the Government will April, and Deputy Prime Minister al-Dardari made not hold back from frank conversations about human absolutely the same point. Given this country’s strategic rights. The 2009 Amnesty International report on Syria strength in financial services—notwithstanding what is says that hundreds of people were arrested or detained happening in the world at the moment—and Syria’s for political reasons, that torture is still committed with ambition to make more of Damascus as a financial impunity and that the military police in Syria were centre, it is key that we exploit the situation and link reported to have killed at least 17 detainees. We should with Syria to ensure that our national interest is protected. not shrink from frank discussion with the Syrian 253WH Middle East24 JUNE 2009 Middle East 254WH

[Mr. Lidington] envisage any Israeli Government of any political tradition being willing to sign up to a peace treaty with Damascus Government about those abuses of human rights. In unless the issue of Hezbollah’s arms is addressed. That, addition to bilateral conversations, if institutions such in turn, means attending to issues affecting Lebanon, as the United Nations Human Rights Council are to such as the Shebaa farms, and brings into the equation work, and to be more than window dressing, we must Syria’s relationship with Iran. It is welcome that, as my show, along with other European countries, that we are hon. Friend the Member for West Suffolk said, the prepared to hold countries around the world, friends Lebanese elections took place peacefully, that the outcome and adversaries alike, to account within that forum for seems to have been accepted by all parties in Lebanon their human rights record. as the fair outcome of the people’s votes, and that there I want to talk finally about foreign and regional has not been the upsurge of violence or tension that policy. Like other hon. Members who have spoken, I many feared as the elections approached. I hope that hope that despite the difficulties of the past six months that is a good augury for the future. a way can be found to restart the talks hosted by Turkey As to relations between Syria and Iran, I think the that brought Israel and Syria, at least indirectly, into a Government and Opposition would agree that we want conversation about a peace settlement and, in particular, fruitful engagement with Iran, but that the chances of the future of the Golan heights. Such a settlement, to that look, at the moment, sadly slim. Given Iran’s which they came desperately close a few years ago, is in history and population, it is entitled to expect us to take their strategic interest. Although anyone who considers into account legitimate national and regional interests. Israeli-Syrian relations can understand the legacy of It is within Iran’s power to be a constructive player in bitterness and mistrust at personal and national levels, the region, if it should so choose. It is sad that the such an agreement is in the interest of both countries. current leadership seems to be turning its back on that It should be possible to achieve a deal on borders and prospect. Syria has access to the top leadership in demilitarisation arrangements, lease-back arrangements Tehran—access that no western power enjoys. I simply for particular peaks, and water, but other issues must be ask the Minister whether the European Union or other dealt with if there is to be an enduring settlement. western powers are seeking to use the Syrian channel to Those involve Syria’s relationship with the Palestinians. communicate messages to the top leadership in Tehran, I hope that the Syrian track will be pursued; I suspect as we cannot do so directly. Those conversations with that it will be very difficult to disentangle a Syrian track Iran are so important, and the possibility of to peace talks wholly from the Palestinian peace track. misunderstanding is so great, that even an indirect Two issues will have to be addressed. The first is Syria’s channel through Damascus is something we should be relationship with Hamas. As we all know, Syria plays willing to use whenever possible. host to Khaled Mashal and one of the Hamas factions. I would be interested to know the Government’s assessment 10.39 am of whether Damascus is trying to promote Palestinian unity, because it is difficult to envisage an enduring The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth settlement between Israel and the Palestinians without Office (Mr. ): I congratulate the hon. Member a measure of Palestinian unity. Nor do I see that such for West Suffolk (Mr. Spring) on securing the debate. It Palestinian unity and a deal, or even a path towards a is four years since we jousted on what was then called deal, with Israel, will be attainable without Hamas the Standing Committee on the Finance Bill. All I can making concrete progress towards meeting the Quartet say is what goes around comes around. I pay tribute to conditions. him for his tremendous work over a long time in trying to improve relationships and build awareness of the There have been statements in recent months and common interests between the people of Syria and the years by various Hamas leaders. Sometimes we get a people of this country. He has played a significant message in articles and interviews in the western press leadership role in that respect. that seems not to be matched by what is said in Arabic language media in Gaza or elsewhere in the Arab world. I look forward to jousting with the hon. Member for Certainly I have not yet seen anything that persuades Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) in our respective Front-Bench me that Hamas has made concrete progress towards roles. I applaud the consensual tone that he took this accepting the Quartet conditions. However, it is clear to morning. I make the same point about the contribution me that Syria has a significant influence over Hamas. made by the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Yet at the time of the Gaza conflict, in the early weeks Swinson). We are debating important and profound of this year, we were getting very clear reports that it matters, and we should minimise party political differences was Mr. Mashal and his faction in Damascus who were whenever possible and fulfil our position responsibly taking the hardest line in opposing efforts to try to and with a responsible tone. broker a ceasefire and truce, to bring at least an immediate I pay tribute to the work of the British Syrian Society end to that bloody conflict, which was costing both lives and its aim to strengthen relationships at all levels of and livelihoods. We should like a report from the British and Syrian society. I thank my hon. Friend the Government on their assessment of Syria’s policy towards Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook and Small Heath Palestinian unity and the role of Hamas; and we should (Mr. Godsiff) for drawing attention to the society’s like to know whether the British Government are making contribution. their views clear in their conversations with the Syrian Today’s debate is particularly timely, given developments authorities. in the region, of which Syria is such an important part. If there is to be an enduring Israeli-Syrian settlement, We are seeing increasing engagement by the Obama the issue of arms supplies to Hezbollah across Syrian Administration, including, as we heard, a recent visit to territory will have to be addressed. I find it hard to Damascus by Senator Mitchell. Recent elections in 255WH Middle East24 JUNE 2009 Middle East 256WH

Lebanon passed off smoothly, and Israel has a new Foreign Office representatives met the ambassador. At Government who may be able to push forward a peace the most recent meetings, we were obliged to ask Iran to deal with Syria. For some time, the British Government remove two of its diplomatic staff from London. That have recognised the importance of the relationship between does not assist us in trying to improve the relationship Syria and the United Kingdom, and I agree with the between our two countries. hon. Member for West Suffolk that Syria has a crucial Some of the rhetoric deployed by Iran against the role in ensuring peace, stability and prosperity in the United Kingdom over the past few days is clearly and middle east. unequivocally unacceptable and undesirable, and it does I turn to some of the specific points raised during the nothing to help Iran’s relationship with the UK or with debate. The hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Goodman) the rest of the international community. Indeed, during and my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, the past 24 hours, my right hon. Friend the Prime Sparkbrook and Small Heath asked how we can reach Minister has said that Iran has a choice: it can either be out to moderate Muslim voices, how we can encourage a part of the international community in every way— much closer contact between moderates in the middle politically and economically, and from a security point east and in the UK and how we can bring scholars and of view, it is part of the solution—or it can stand aside. young people together. The consequences of the latter will clearly not be desirable The first thing to put on record in such a debate is to the people of Iran. that those who preach hate or engage in violence represent I also thank the hon. Members for East Dunbartonshire a bastardisation of Islam, not a manifestation of it. It is and for Aylesbury for being supportive of the Government’s incredibly important that we should say so at every position and the way in which we are interacting with opportunity. When speaking to Muslims, both here and Iran at this difficult time. throughout the world, we hear that the mainstream majority want us to make that point time and again. I turn to the specific points raised by the hon. Member Mr. Lidington: On behalf of the Opposition, I endorse for Wycombe. We are working closely with Syrian bodies the Minister’s remarks completely. I invite him to agree to exchange knowledge and wisdom on the question of that, although it must be for Iranians to decide how scholars. We look forward to continuing exchanges Iran should be governed, it is the demands of ordinary between Syria and the United Kingdom, and the Iranians, not foreigners, to which the Iranian Government Government will most definitely support them. The should respond. has programmes on student exchanges in partnership with Syrian organisations. I and my Mr. Lewis: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. officials will be happy to brief the hon. Gentleman, so For a Government to have legitimacy, credibility and that we can discuss in more detail how those programmes authority, they must reflect the will of the people— should function. otherwise, in whatever context they choose to identify My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield themselves, theirs cannot claim to be a democratic (Richard Burden) raised an important matter. He has a country. That is clearly so, which is why the House must long track record of speaking with great passion and today repeat that message loudly and clearly and in a commitment on the middle east, but today he raised the unified way. important question of refugees. My hon. Friend will be The hon. Members for Aylesbury and for Wimbledon fully aware of our considerable assistance in Iraq. For (Stephen Hammond) raised the question of economic example, the Department for International Development ties. I shall deal specifically with the European Union’s spent £16 million last year to support agencies working relationship with Syria. We welcome the steps that have directly with refugees. The Government will continue to been taken towards finalising the EU-Syria association discuss the issue with the Syrian regime and the United agreement. For as long as Syria continues with its recent Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. Future support, positive political developments, we are content to move of course, will be a matter for DFID, which is my forward with the association agreement. former Department—sadly, I can no longer make spending commitments on its behalf. It is clear that EU-Syria relations cannot be conducted My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield without reference to the wider political context, particularly and the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) Syria’s commitment to the Arab peace initiative. Matters mentioned Christians. As we heard, Syria’s is a rich and to do with democracy and, more specifically, human diverse society. When considering the plight of refugees, rights will affect Syria’s ability to trade properly or fully we should focus on supporting all refugees appropriately to take advantage of its economic opportunities and the and improving their humanitarian situation. economic challenges that the world faces. In the real world, questions of democracy and human rights cannot The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire spoke of be separated from questions of trade and economic Iran, as did the hon. Member for Aylesbury. A number co-operation. of things need to be said. First, we believe that the will of the people of Iran, as expressed in the recent election, must prevail. That matter must be resolved. Secondly, it Richard Burden: My hon. Friend makes an important was entirely inappropriate for Iran to throw out two point about human rights affecting the ability to trade. I British diplomats during the past 48 hours; there was no presume that he takes the same view of all countries in justification whatever for that. Unfortunately, we have the middle east, particularly Israel. As I understand it, been obliged to summon the Iranian ambassador in Government policy on the EU-Israel association agreement London to the Foreign Office on three occasions during is that it provides a framework for encouraging progress the past three days. On the first occasion, the deputy on human rights. If that is the case for Israel, it should ambassador arrived. On the second two occasions, senior also be the case for Syria. 257WH Middle East24 JUNE 2009 Middle East 258WH

Mr. Lewis: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Further one hand and supporting, fostering and encouraging progress on the EU-Israel association agreement depends terrorist activities on the other. The UK cannot support on progress in the middle east peace process, as has such an approach. been made clear in the dialogue within the EU and One issue on which Syria has an opportunity to work between it and the state of Israel. The hon. Member for productively with the international community is Aylesbury raised a point about the UK’s ability to help co-operation with the International Atomic Energy Agency. Syria with governance and administration issues. We More recently, the IAEA has raised concern over uranium shall consider any requests for such help sympathetically. particles found in Syria, and we strongly urge Syria to Our embassy currently has a small number of civil co-operate with the investigation and to provide, without society projects in which we work in co-operation with further delay, the access that the IAEA seeks. It is the Syrian Government, and I am happy to provide him unacceptable for Syria to continue to refuse access. The with further information about those projects if that US has provided compelling evidence to suggest that would be useful. Syria was developing a nuclear reactor, and we strongly support the mandate of the IAEA to investigate those I think that I have dealt, more or less, with hon. claims. Members’ specific contributions, and I now want to talk in more detail about the UK’s relationship with Another important part of Syria’s role in the region Syria and how we envisage the latter playing a crucial relates to Iraq. It is important to acknowledge the role in the middle east more generally. Our dialogue number of positive measures that the Syrian Government with the Syrian Government has focused on engaging have taken to improve relations with the Iraqi with Syria, using our diplomatic tools to encourage Government—a number of high-level visits between progress in certain areas and urging a change of policy the two and the establishment of a joint working group in others. However, we are realistic about the issues in to help secure the Syria-Iraq border. We should welcome our so-called critical dialogue with Syria. Our eyes are those very positive steps. However, it is vital, for Syria’s wide open and—to mix my metaphors—there is no own security and as part of building its relations with danger of the wool being pulled over them. the west, that it continues on the path of taking concerted action to tackle al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups. I That is part of a wider process. As the Foreign welcome Foreign Minister Walid al-Muallem’s statement Secretary noted, in his recent speech on Islam in Oxford, that tackling al-Qaeda and other groups that use Syria Britain has embassies in 38 Muslim-majority countries as a transit route for attacks in Iraq is a high priority. and maintains diplomatic engagement with countries The UK Government have made it clear to the Syrian with which we have disagreements. The key point is that Government that we are prepared to support and encourage we seek to influence through engagement and dialogue. their work in that respect. As part of that, last year, the Foreign Secretary visited We cannot, however, tackle extremism or find a resolution Syria—the first British Cabinet Minister to do so since to the middle east conflict without regard to the human 2001—and my ministerial predecessor, who is now the angle. We need to give people the confidence that their Minister for the Armed Forces, visited Syria in April as state will protect them and secure their rights. Syria’s part of our ongoing efforts to engage with it. I hope to record on human rights is poor. There can be no excuse visit the region over the next few months. Perhaps the for, or dismissal of, that point when discussing our hon. Member for West Suffolk would like to be my relationship. The Prime Minister has argued, and I guide—that was not a totally serious offer, but we shall agree, that ours is a global society in which universal see. rights and values still leave room for extraordinarily As I have noted, we discuss a number of important rich and different ways of living. As the hon. Member issues with the Syrians—issues in which we have shared for West Suffolk pointed out, Syrian society is rich and and mutual interests and in which Syria, as a significant diverse, with a tolerance for different faiths. There is power in the region, has an important role to play. What much to welcome and applaud. are those issues? We welcome past movement towards As the hon. Member for Aylesbury mentioned, however, dialogue between Israel and Syria—crucially on both over the past year, there has been a worrying deterioration sides. It is obvious that talks between these two countries in the human rights situation in Syria. Critics of the have the potential to provide a significant contribution Government—those who call for peaceful democratic towards a lasting and comprehensive middle east peace reform and those who post dissenting comments on process. We want talks to continue on the basis of land internet have been imprisoned—and as much as for peace—full Israeli withdrawal from the Golan heights we might be tempted to go down that path, in this in exchange for peace and security for Israel with fully country, I can assure hon. Members that it will never normalised bilateral relations. My hon. Friend the Member happen. Sadly, however, disappearances, travel bans for Birmingham, Sparkbrook and Small Heath and the and arbitrary detention are increasingly common. There hon. Member for Aylesbury made that point. are reports of torture during interrogation and deaths in police custody. We continue, however, to call on Syria We must also be clear, however, about the messages to implement internationally agreed minimum standards that we and others in the international community send on the prevention of torture. when Syria continues to support the leadership of Hamas The Syrian authorities continue to crack down on and Palestinian Islamic Jihad or when it continues to peaceful forms of expression. In the biggest collective facilitate the supply of weapons to Hezbollah. Those prosecution of Syrian dissidents in the past seven years, actions are inconsistent with the openness of Syria to the 12 intellectuals and activists forming the Damascus talk to Israel, and these issues will have to be addressed declaration group appeared for sentencing at the criminal if there is to be peace between the two. We cannot have court on 29 October 2008. All defendants received two countries sitting around the negotiating table on the and a half years’ imprisonment for the crimes of damaging 259WH Middle East 24 JUNE 2009 260WH the dignity of the state and distributing false news—another Nitrate Vulnerable Zones interesting crime that we could put on the statute book in this country. The defendants pleaded not guilty and 11 am have done nothing except peacefully exercise their fundamental rights, as guaranteed by the Syrian constitution Christopher Fraser (South-West Norfolk) (Con): I am and international law. pleased to have the opportunity to raise the issue of In recent months, there has also been a significant nitrate vulnerable zones. I should like to thank the increase in arrests and harassment of Kurds. Hon. National Farmers Union for its expert knowledge, and Members would like to make it clear that that is not the Environment Agency for its briefing. I secured this acceptable. Kurdish rights are still not legitimised within debate because the matter of nitrate vulnerable zones is the Syrian constitution. Three Syrian Kurds were killed of great concern to farmers in my constituency. after security forces opened fire on a demonstration I should like to put it on record that I own farmland, marking Kurdish new year in March 2008. Such behaviour but it is not in my constituency and it does not lie within does not serve Syria well; nor does it help to bring peace a nitrate vulnerable zone. The sole purpose of this to a region of extraordinary history and complexity. debate is to stand up for the interests of my constituents I do not want to rehearse the history of Syria’s in Norfolk. Farmers there have had a tough time recently relationship with Lebanon, because it is more useful to due to increased bureaucracy, extreme weather conditions focus on the future. We welcome the decision by Syria and animal disease. The farming community makes an and Lebanon to establish diplomatic relations and the extremely important contribution to Britain’s economy. arrival of respective ambassadors. We also welcome the Does the Minister not agree that that means that it is peaceful conduct of elections in Lebanon and the even more vital to ensure that farmers feel supported by acceptance by all parties of the outcome. These are the Government? important steps forward. However, Syria can do more. Although agriculture has been in general decline over It is bound, by UN Security Council resolutions 1559, the last century, it remains hugely important for rural 1680 and 1701, not to interfere in Lebanese internal employment and the rural economy as a whole. In affairs, including through material support for Hezbollah. South-West Norfolk, agriculture plays a large role in Instead, Syria should continue its regional role in promoting maintaining our local communities, which is why I have stability and political progress in Lebanon, including raised the issue of nitrate vulnerable zones on more through its relations with Saudi Arabia. Demarcation than one occasion in Parliament. of the Syria-Lebanon border and a resolution of the All hon. Members with big farming communities in issue of those missing from both sides are urgent next their constituencies have received a lot of correspondence steps. For too long, Lebanon has suffered from external from farmers who are worried about the new rules. interference of one kind or another, and Syria has a role Farmers have raised their concerns about closed periods to play in ensuring that Lebanon does not again fall for the spreading of manure, compulsory cover crops, victim to that. slurry storage regulations, the lack of scientific evidence Our dialogue with Syria concerns a number of serious to justify changes and the increase in regulations and issues, and some might argue that we should therefore red tape. not talk at all, but, like hon. Members, I disagree. Farmers have always accepted the fact that the Isolation is not the answer. We should be realistic, but environmental impact of farming practices must be we shall not ignore Syria or its important role. At this addressed. However, more than anything they are dismayed time of great importance in the region, the UK will, by the associated costs of the regulations that have now through high-ranking Ministers and senior officials, come into force. The NFU estimates the average cost of continue to make all efforts to address all the issues extending slurry storage alone to be somewhere in the between the UK and Syria. This is a timely debate. region of £50,000 per farm. Does the Minister accept None of us needs reminding of the importance of that that is a huge additional cost, particularly in light President Obama’s speech in Cairo. He acknowledged of the fact that farmers are already struggling? the tensions, fears and mistrust that can exist between Moreover, there are a number of concerns surrounding different peoples, but he also spoke of a new beginning the implementation of the nitrate vulnerable zone based on trust and respect. regulations, on which I shall concentrate. At this point, Edwin H. Friedman wrote: I should like to say that this is a timely debate. The “Leadership can be thought of as a capacity to define oneself Government have succeeded in securing a derogation to others in a way that clarifies and expands a vision of the from the livestock manure nitrogen limit in designated future.” NVZs, which I welcome. It will allow farms up to 80 kg That is the challenge that Syria now faces. I am an more nitrogen per hectare than the EU standard of optimist. I believe in democracy, and I urge the Syrian 170 kg. At least 80 per cent. of the farmland is grassland, Government to seize the opportunity to provide the so such a measure will particularly benefit dairy farmers. bold and far-sighted leadership that they are in a position It is likely that a statutory instrument relating to the to show. Syria can be a major part of the solution in the derogation will be scheduled for the autumn. That will middle east. Integral to that will be a two-state solution be a window of opportunity for the Government to based on an Israel free of terror and violence and on a consider and address other critical issues of concern. viable Palestinian state. Part 7 of the new regulations introduces a number of rules relating to slurry storage. By January 2012, farmers must provide at least six months’ storage capacity for poultry manures and pig slurry, and at least five months’ capacity for other types of livestock manure. Farmers must follow a defined process when calculating how 261WH Nitrate Vulnerable Zones24 JUNE 2009 Nitrate Vulnerable Zones 262WH

[Christopher Fraser] programme requirements. If the Minister is not willing to commit to prioritising analysis of the new data, what much storage they need. They must ensure that storage consideration will he give to compensation for those facilities meet legal standards of construction as well as farmers who, through no fault of their own, might lose keeping annual records regarding all of the above. Until out financially as a result of their land being wrongly the next review in 2012, farmers will be subjected to a designated? rigorous action programme to ensure that they meet the Unlike in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, new guidelines. English farmers receive no grants for building extra It has now emerged that the Environment Agency slurry storage. That requirement has been imposed on believes that 6 per cent. of all farmland has been farmers and it has, unsurprisingly, come as a huge wrongly designated. That may sound insignificant, but financial blow to them. Does the Minister not agree we are talking about some 6,000 farms. that the lack of grants for our farmers in England is discriminatory? Mr. Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): Having talked about the rules over slurry storage, I Does my hon. Friend agree that there is some reason to should like to touch briefly on closed periods for the be very concerned about the methodology that is being spreading of manure and fertiliser. The new regulations used to designate nitrate vulnerable zones? In my own mean that most farmers are prevented from spreading constituency near Holsworthy, we have under appeal a between September and February. That aspect of the nitrate vulnerable zone, in which the nitrate levels are regulations worried farmers before they came into force attributable not to slurry or to farm run-off, but to a for a number of persuasive reasons. A farmer from my series of other factors that have nothing to do with constituency said: farming. “Closed periods for spreading of manures does not really have any effect on diffuse pollution - muck is still to be spread on the Christopher Fraser: At the end of the day, there is a land. Our weather is so unpredictable we could be spreading lot of confusion about nitrate vulnerable zones and the during a month of heavy rainfall, damaging soil structure or the criteria under which farms have to operate. My hon. next crop.” and learned Friend articulates very well the concerns of farmers in both his constituency and mine, which must The NFU concurs with such arguments. be addressed by the Government today. The closed period means that farmers will be spreading When I say 6,000 farms, I am including areas that their manure when land is more likely to be waterlogged. were designated NVZs in 2002 but which did not technically With heavy vehicles going over the land, soil damage is meet the necessary criteria in 2006 under the new inevitable. There is also a greater risk of run-off if the methodology that was used, yet the Department for land is frozen solid. Before the regulations came into Environment, Food and Rural Affairs took a policy force, farmers had the freedom to spread manure at decision to retain the farmland as NVZs on the ground their discretion. Many, including most dairy farmers, that nitrate levels in those areas might increase again. would spread little and often to manage their lagoons, Its justification for that decision can be found in step 6 but closed periods mean that they are unable to do so. of the surface and ground water methodology. Farmers Why are the Government so reluctant to trust farmers in such zones will be expected to invest tens of thousands to make informed decisions on when it is best to spread of pounds in additional slurry storage that may prove manure? Does the Minister accept that the closed period to be unnecessary. What is the Minister’s response to regulations are simply a barrier to farmers following the Environment Agency’s assessment and does he recognise good agricultural practice derived from their professional that there is an argument for amending the nitrate judgment and endless experience? pollution prevention regulations so that they do not The Government are forcing farmers to operate under apply to those areas designated as NVZs under step 6 of a prescriptive system that fails to take their experience the surface and ground water methodology? into account. Does the Minister agree that it would be DEFRA has said that the methodology used in 2006 better to trust farmers to follow responsible farming “has been peer reviewed and accepted by reviewers so as to ensure practices? He could ensure, through regular inspections, it is fit for purpose and robust.” that those who do not do so face the consequences. Step 6 was not part of the original peer-reviewed One solution for farmers who will struggle to spread methodology.Does the Minister still believe that DEFRA’s their manure during the very short available time frame decision was robust, and does he recognise that farmers is new technology. One company I know of has just see it as yet another example of the Government’s developed an energy-efficient pulse jet irrigator that policy of unnecessary gold-plating? All areas including allows farmers to spread their manure quickly and those not designated as NVZs were subject to a further effectively with a reduced risk of run-off. However, the four years of monitoring that came to an end in 2008. technology is prohibited solely because its trajectory The date may or may not confirm that some farmland exceeds by a small margin the 4 m limit. That is another does not now require designation. When does the Minister example of the regulations making it harder for farmers expect the Environment Agency to complete its assessment to operate efficiently and cost-effectively. of the new data? Moreover, can he prioritise the issue I do not want to endorse one particular company, but and ask the Environment Agency to analyse the information will the Minister assure me that DEFRA is taking into as speedily as possible? account the development of new technologies that could That request is most urgent because the issue of help farmers to cope with the new rules? Does he slurry storage is a matter of capital investment for believe that in some cases, there might be an argument farmers across the country. Farmers will incur significant for amending the regulations, particularly if that would and possibly avoidable costs to meet the NVZ action benefit farmers? 263WH Nitrate Vulnerable Zones24 JUNE 2009 Nitrate Vulnerable Zones 264WH

The methodology for designation for the next review improve the condition of protected sites and enhance in 2012 is not yet fixed, but it needs to be improved. The biodiversity. We do not resile from those imperatives, Environment Agency developed the current designation and nor would he and his colleagues. method under considerable time pressures, and I believe We must put the debate in the context that we have that it contains weaknesses. If an area has a lot of achieved substantial improvement in the past couple of sewage points, it will be designated as nitrate vulnerable. decades. That is good news, but it does not mean that However, that may not reflect agriculture in the area. As we have succeeded entirely. In fact, the continuing high a result, farmers have to bear high costs through no levels of nitrate in our waters from various sources fault of their own. That is unfair and it must be addressed remain a concern and they are a significant cause of as a matter of great urgency. Will the Minister confirm water pollution. The costs for treating water to meet that DEFRA is looking at amending the methodology drinking water requirements on nitrates during the period as a matter of priority in time for the next NVZ review? 2005 to 2010 are estimated to be £288 million in capital I am aware that the network of monitoring points was expenditure and £6 million per year in operating reviewed in 2007, but given that NVZs are based on expenditure—not insignificant amounts. The costs of historical data, it could be several years before data environmental damage to river and wetland ecosystems from the old network are removed from the system. and natural habitats are estimated to be in the region of £716 million to £1,297 million per year. Mr. Cox: The Minister might be able to help us on one matter. There is a huge number of outstanding This is not entirely about farming, as was rightly appeals in connection with current designations. Will he pointed out, but we estimate that agriculture contributes give us some sort of timetable for the disposal of those approximately 60 per cent. of nitrogen entering our appeals? Many farmers are living in suspense and are rivers. We cannot get away from that. Therefore, farmers unable to make business decisions. are part of the solution and have a key role in reducing such pollution. Their actions will also contribute to Christopher Fraser: My hon. and learned Friend makes meeting the more demanding environmental objectives a first-class point. Appeal processes cause enormous of the water framework directive, which is coming disruption to farms and the processes within farms. I down the track towards us. know the Minister to be a decent and genuine man, and We carried out a review of the action programme and I am sure that he will give fair consideration to that introduced some changes. The review of nitrate pollution point. and the effectiveness of the old action programme The financial burdens are inappropriate and unnecessary, measures highlighted that we continue to have one of particularly in a period of flux concerning appeals and the highest levels of nitrate pollution in Europe. Although processes, and they create a major problem for rural the monitoring data suggest that nitrate levels in many businesses that are already suffering. Does the Minister surface waters have a downward trend, we have no recognise the frustration that farmers feel when their certain basis on which to conclude that they are significant land has been designated as a result of sewage discharge, or, importantly, sustained trends. We do not want ping-pong, particularly given that nitrate from sewage works is back and forth; we need to ensure that the trends are dealt with by the urban waste water treatment directive, sustained. Our review showed that concentrations remain which is an entirely different directive? Moreover, although high and that they are increasing in some areas, particularly all farms must take action when nitrate levels are considered in ground waters. That is part of the reason why we a problem, only certain sewage works are required to do increased the coverage of NVZs from 55 to 70 per cent. the same. Does he accept the need to reduce emissions in England. of nitrate from sewage works that drain to waters that During the review, we took on board the views of are nitrate polluted? What is he going to do to ensure stakeholders through the consultation process and made that that happens? a number of significant amendments to our original The new regulations that apply to NVZs have huge proposals as a result. For example, farmers told us that financial implications for farmers—I cannot over-emphasise the proposed requirement for cover crops to be established that point. I believe it to be incumbent on the Government on land left bare over the autumn and winter could to implement the rules fairly and accurately across the cause significant practical difficulties, and they were board. So far, they have fallen short on that duty, and right. We listened to their concerns and as a result farmers have been left in the lurch. I look forward to the removed the measure from the programme. Minister addressing the various points that I have made, We also had to take on board concerns raised by the so that we can return to our constituencies and assure European Commission through infraction proceedings—the our farmers of a brighter future. dread of any Minister—that were ongoing at the time. We had extended discussions with the Commission, 11.16 am which considered that, up to that point, successive The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Governments’ efforts to implement the directive were Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Huw Irranca-Davies): insufficient. I congratulate the hon. Member for South-West Norfolk (Christopher Fraser) on making a good speech on Christopher Fraser: I have two things to ask the behalf of his constituents and the agricultural industry, Minister. First, if he could answer in due course the and on securing this debate. He spoke very well indeed. specific points that I raised in my speech, I would be The hon. Gentleman raises some important issues, grateful, bearing in mind the time frame. Secondly, in and I am not going to rehash why we need the measures terms of what is going on across Europe, does he have and what we feel about water. It is sufficient to say that time to address my point about the need for a level it is a prime Government objective to protect water, playing field? In Northern Ireland, Ireland, Scotland 265WH Nitrate Vulnerable Zones24 JUNE 2009 Nitrate Vulnerable Zones 266WH

[Christopher Fraser] time to comply with some of the measures, we have also given them a period of adjustment. They will have until and Wales, grants are available for slurry storage, but 2012 to comply with the requirement to have extra they are not available in England. That is discriminatory storage facilities. to English farmers. Christopher Fraser: Can the Minister confirm what Huw Irranca-Davies: In the time remaining, I will try the National Farmers Union and other farming to answer the hon. Gentleman’s points. If I leave any organisations have estimated to be the average cost of unanswered, I will ensure that I write to him. extending slurry storage? They say that it will cost On the issue of gold-plating and what is happening in about £50,000 per farm. That is a high price to pay and other European member states, it was clear that we were a big commitment to make while not knowing what the lagging behind in implementation and in achieving outcome will be. environmental outcomes. The revised action programme brings us more into line with action being taken in other member states. However, I must point out that some of Huw Irranca-Davies: I cannot confirm the exact costs, them have more stringent requirements. For example, but as I mentioned in my opening remarks, we recognise 12 months’ slurry storage is required in Finland, satellites that they could be significant. When I was on a farm the are used to check compliance in Belgium and applications other day, I spoke with a gentleman who had purchased of fertiliser are restricted below economic optimum in the equipment second-hand from another farmer down Denmark. I just wanted to put that issue in context. the road who was upgrading his equipment; he had made a killing on it. Fair dos. I speak from my own We believe firmly that the revised action programme family background: farmers can be a good and ingenious measures represent the best possible outcome to advance lot who ensure that they maximise their economic output. our aims of protecting the water environment and meeting However, the costs could well be significant. our legal obligations while taking account of the impact on farmers as well. Their concerns are quite practical. The hon. Gentleman raised a specific point about We recognise that farmers may face significant costs as de-designation. As a result of the latest review, we a result of the revised action programme. In some de-designated some small areas originally designated in instances, those costs might prove difficult to meet, 2002, amounting to about 1.5 per cent. of England. especially in light of the current economic climate and That was done on the basis of improvements in the the recent collapse of Dairy Farmers of Britain. monitoring of ground water quality and the use of hydrological knowledge and data that allowed us to However, we do not intend to change our position on identify more accurately where polluted ground waters grant support, and I will explain why.No new Government and their catchments were. money will be provided to help with construction of additional manure storage facilities. I heard what the The review also identified that there are small areas hon. Gentleman said about other countries, but experience of the NVZs that drain to waters which no longer have indicates clearly that awarding capital grants can, for nitrate concentrations above the “polluted” threshold example, increase storage tank supply prices—we have of 50 mg. However, I must make it clear that those areas seen that happen before—and postpone the impact of were not wrongly designated. They were correctly identified market forces. Providing grants would also contravene as polluted at the time of the previous round of NVZ the “polluter pays” principle, to which I think we all designations in 2002. They were not de-designated following generally sign up, and we prefer to avoid putting public the latest review, owing to issues with sustainability. The funds towards securing compliance with regulatory data are insufficient for us to be confident that the standards. However, we remain committed to improving observed improvement in water quality would be sustained. how we regulate and enforce regulation and to keeping That might change, but at the moment, if we de-designate, administrative burdens to a minimum, and we will seek we could well start ping-ponging back and forth. It to do so. could be to the disadvantage of farmers if we de-designated them and then had to re-designate them if the improvement For example, we recently announced our success in proved unsustainable. obtaining a derogation from the livestock manure N farm limit of 170 kg of nitrate per hectare per year, We have taken the decision to develop a methodology which was one of the more demanding requirements of in good time for the next four-yearly review. I have the directive. I note the hon. Gentleman’s welcome of noted the hon. Gentleman’s comments about timeliness; that announcement. In the short term, it will reduce the I will ensure that that is done and keep my foot on the economic cost to the livestock industry significantly, by throttle. I also noted the comments that farmers in between £16.9 million and £21.7 million a year. That potential de-designation areas might have to commit to represents about 50 per cent. of the overall cost to the significant expenditure even though the application of dairy sector. the action programme rules in those areas might be There are also numerous existing sources of financial short-lived. As the Minister responsible, I recognise that support for our farmers, and we need to do our best to that issue is important and thank him for raising it. We highlight them. For example, help is available under the will engage actively with the agricultural industry and England catchment sensitive farming delivery initiative farmers in the areas concerned—we know where they and the rural development programme. Slurry storage are—to discuss the options and how to resolve the facilities are eligible for plant and machinery allowances situation. We do not want to be impractical; we want to such as the annual investment allowance, which is capped work with them to find a way through. at £50,000 per year. Slurry pits also qualify for allowances I reassure the hon. Gentleman that we are continuing in their own right under the Capital Allowances Act our work to improve the methodology in good time to 2001. In recognition of the fact that farmers will need reflect improvements in scientific understanding. We 267WH Nitrate Vulnerable Zones 24 JUNE 2009 268WH will develop those improvements in consultation with Equitable Life stakeholders and academic experts, using peer review where necessary. In conclusion, we are continuing work to ensure that 2.30 pm our implementation of the nitrates directive achieves the right balance between achieving sustainable and Mr. Fabian Hamilton (Leeds, North-East) (Lab): It is efficient farming practices, allowing as much flexibility a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr. Caton. for farmers as possible and minimising unnecessary So much has been written and said over the last few costs and burdens, and respecting the need to improve years about the collapse of Equitable Life that I begin water quality through the regulatory framework set this debate with some trepidation, especially as the down in the nitrates directive. previous debate in this House was barely a month ago and was introduced by the right hon. Member for Christopher Fraser: I am grateful to the Minister for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis). Although our giving way for the last time, as we have a few minutes political perspectives are very different, he is a Member left and he said “in conclusion”. Will he address my of this House for whom I have the greatest respect. question about closed periods and tell us why the Today, I wish to make a further attempt to advance Government are so reluctant to trust farmers to make the just cause of many of my constituents who have informed decisions in their farms’ best interests? The been so badly affected by what has happened to Equitable Government are being prescriptive. Farmers have had Life, and whose lives have been altered radically as a generations of experience, and occasionally Departments result. I am certain that I am not alone in that. The have not. debate of 19 May showed how many hon. Members take a close interest in the issue. My aim is not simply to Huw Irranca-Davies: That is a good point, and I repeat that and other debates, but to add something apologise for not addressing it. I am glad that we have a new from the experiences of my constituents, and to little time left. The action programme prohibits slurry give other hon. Members the chance to make contributions. applications to waterlogged and frozen land. Farmers need to assess the risk of run-off before applying slurry, My most important aim is to persuade the Government using their own judgment, and to apply it only when to agree to the recommendations of the parliamentary ground conditions are suitable, but the closed periods ombudsman’s original report, “Equitable Life: a decade are designed to avoid the risk of contamination through of regulatory failure”, which was published in July run-off of ground water in tricky conditions at certain 2008. Since the publication of that report, the Public times of the year. Administration Committee has produced a report entitled, The hon. Gentleman mentioned sewage treatment “Justice Delayed” on 11 December 2008 and just last works. We implement the European Community urban month, on 5 May, the parliamentary ombudsman published waste water treatment directive, which sets the standard a further report, “Injustice unremedied: the Government’s for treatment at sewage treatment works. We are equally response on Equitable Life”. There is no shortage of committed to driving that through as well. He was right reports, just a shortage of justice for those who, through to make the point that it is not only about what comes no fault of their own, have suffered huge losses in the from the agricultural industry. That is a significant part life savings that they accrued over years of hard work. of the problem, but it is also about the other ways that Surely that cannot be right. we treat sewage. I admit that, like many hon. Members who until As has been pointed out, we need to take a proportionate recently knew little about how all this came about, I was approach to the issue while recognising our rightful not very sympathetic at first. However, as it became commitments to maintaining water quality. We will clear that, as much as the world’s oldest mutual insurance continue to engage with the industry—I welcome the company had overstretched itself, the real issue was opportunity that the hon. Gentleman has given us to poor regulation, I became more and more concerned reiterate that fact—and to work with his constituents and so more and more interested in what my constituents and many others throughout the country who, I am were telling me. I suspect that that experience has sure, share our desire to achieve good water quality echoed around the whole House and that there is not standards and ensure that our farmers are assisted with one hon. Member who has not received correspondence advice, support and, occasionally, through the measures from their constituents about Equitable Life. That is that I mentioned, financial help. They will be signposted reflected by the attendance at this debate. towards such help where it can assist them. It may be helpful if I reiterate a brief history of how this disaster came about before I recount some of the 11.29 am personal tragedies that resulted from the poor management Sitting suspended. and disastrous regulation of Equitable Life.

Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I suspect that the hon. Gentleman is right that every MP has constituents with such difficulties. I probably have more than most because of the spread and make-up of my constituency. The damage that this matter has done to people who have worked and paid for their retirement is enormous. I have two points to make. First, we should move the compensation and have it early. Secondly, we should take the partiality of the scheme away. 269WH Equitable Life24 JUNE 2009 Equitable Life 270WH

Mr. Hamilton: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will I said earlier that I would highlight some of the many listen carefully to my speech because it will include cases that have been brought to my attention by my many of the points that he has rightly raised. I hope constituents, and I am sure that we could all raise such that he will be satisfied that I am pressing for the same cases. The majority of the public, who have had no things. contact with or money invested in Equitable Life, would Equitable Life was founded in 1762 as a mutual be forgiven for thinking that only those who had insurance company, based on the ideas of Charles considerable investment in the company have lost out Dodson, a fellow of the Royal Society and a man well over recent years. The reality is different, as the examples ahead of his time. It started selling pensions as early as will show. I have protected the names of my constituents 1913, but it was not until 1957 that the society started by using initials. selling its infamous guaranteed annuity rate pensions, Mrs. H of north Leeds told me that her modest £200 which gave a clear and unambiguous return on capital a month income was reduced overnight to less than invested, depending on the age at which the policyholder £100 a month, although it is now back up to about decided to start taking the annuity. That carried on £120. She is 83 and was completely dependent on that until 1988, when the society realised that its rates were £200 a month. When it was reduced by more than half, so good and so far ahead of the rest of the market that she found it hard to cope financially. It was only the they were unsustainable. In December 2000, Equitable help of her ex-husband that kept her going. She still Life was forced to close to new business. By that time, it struggles every month because of the continued shortfall had more than 1.5 million members. That is why so in her income. many hon. Members have so many constituents who At the other end of the scale, Mr. A is a retired have suffered. solicitor who started investing in a pension policy with The introduction to the December 2008 Public Equitable Life in his mid-30s. Given the record of the Administration Committee report stated: company and the projections for growth over succeeding years, that would have given him a fund large enough to “Over the last eight years many of those members and their pay a substantial income from the annuity that he families have suffered great anxiety as policy values were cut and would have started aged 65. He is now 61. Not only has pension payments reduced. Many are no longer alive, and will be unable to benefit personally from any compensation. We share he seen no growth in his fund over the past few years, both a deep sense of frustration and continuing outrage that the but the annuity he was guaranteed is no longer possible. situation has remained unresolved for so long.” He lost out twice: first, when his investment failed to reach its promised level and, secondly, when he discovered Last month, on 5 May, frustrated that little had happened that the guaranteed annuity rate had been abolished. since her long-awaited initial report in July 2008, the The fund was far lower than he had planned. parliamentary ombudsman, Ann Abraham, published a second report, “Injustice unremedied: the Government’s Mr. A provided the following example. Say he had response on Equitable Life”. It was scathing about the invested a total of £100,000 in 1997. According to inaction on her initial recommendations of July 2008: Equitable Life’s plan, that sum should have grown to about £133,000 by 2000. However, because the society “I was deeply disappointed that the Government chose to had frozen all investments by that time, his fund would reject many of the findings that I had made, when I was acting independently on behalf of Parliament and after a detailed and have remained at £100,000. exhaustive investigation.” In order to halt the reduction in the value of his investment, Mr. A decided to move the fund to another company and paid a penalty of £20,000 for the privilege. Sir (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I must That is a high penalty, but is sadly not uncommon in the declare an interest as a small policyholder with Equitable industry. In 1997 he had an investment of £100,000, Life, although my policy was nowhere near as large as which he could have reasonably believed would have that of many of my constituents who have been affected. helped to provide part of an annuity that would have Is not part of the significance of the ombudsman’s guaranteed him a good pension income. Three years report that it stated that regulatory failure was only part later, he had only £80,000 to invest—a loss of £53,000 of the cause, and that another part was the appalling compared with what he might have expected, or a mismanagement of Equitable Life, to which the hon. reduction of just under 40 per cent. in the value of his Gentleman has referred? In identifying regulatory failure fund. as a separate matter, she provided the Government with Dr. C is a retired consultant who lost more than an avenue for what would be reasonable compensation. £25,000 after investing £100,000 in Equitable Life. He The Government’s refusal to implement her report is spread his investments carefully, so although he is angry appalling. at his loss, he has not been left destitute. However, he blames the regulatory regime that allowed this to happen Mr. Hamilton: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for in the first place. that intervention. I will go on to talk about the regulatory Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove) (Con): The hon. failure and why I think that there should be a proper Gentleman is right to say that some people have experienced compensation scheme. I hope that I will cover some of considerable loss and that others have had less of a loss. the points that he rightly raised. Nevertheless, people have still lost an important income The conclusion of the parliamentary ombudsman’s on which they were relying for their old age. The terrible report of 5 May stated: thing about Equitable Life is that, in seeking to look “In this case, I am satisfied that the injustice I found in my after themselves in their old age, the 1.5 million policyholders report to have resulted from maladministration on the part of the were doing the right thing by themselves and for society, public bodies responsible for the prudential regulation of the yet they have been very badly let down. That is why Society has not so far been remedied.” Parliament has to act. 271WH Equitable Life24 JUNE 2009 Equitable Life 272WH

Mr. Hamilton: The hon. Lady is right. Later in my “We strongly support the Ombudsman’s recommendation for remarks, I shall address the points that she has made. the creation of a compensation scheme to pay for the loss that has been suffered by Equitable Life’s members as a result of Why is the regulator to blame? Surely investors must maladministration. Where regulators have been shown to fail so have understood that their investments could decrease thoroughly, compensation should be a duty, not a matter of as well as increase. How could Equitable Life have choice.” maintained a rate of return and a guaranteed annuity Although the Select Committee fully acknowledged the rate that was way beyond any competitor in the market? huge sums of money that might be involved and the Those are the questions that Ann Abraham addressed need to strike a careful balance between the interests of in her initial report of July 2008, which took four years the taxpayer and the policyholder, it went on to conclude: to complete. Her answers go to the heart of the anger “Not only did the regulators fail, but they failed over a expressed by investors through the Equitable Members prolonged period and at a fundamental level. The impact has Action Group, or EMAG. been severe for many of those who were worst affected; it would At the core of the problem is the fact that Equitable be unacceptable for current financial pressure to override failings Life simply could not meet the obligations that it had which took place seven or more years ago.” made for itself because it made no provision for guarantees against low interest rates on policies issued before 1988. Mr. (West Dorset) (Con): Like the right It therefore declared bonuses out of all proportion to its hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), profits and assets. Following the ruling of the House of I declare an interest in that my wife was an Equitable Lords in July 2000, the society stopped taking new Life pension holder at the time. When the Penrose business in December of that year, which effectively report came out and we debated that issue, I remember spelt the end for Equitable. More than 1 million the reluctance of the ombudsman to take on the task. policyholders then found that they faced cuts in their At that time, Ministers made it clear that they did not bonuses and annuities, which caused a huge loss of believe that there was administrative and regulatory income, on which many small investors had depended. failure. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is still a After all, the average investment for the 500,000 individual mystery why Ministers have rejected most of the policyholders was just £45,000, which, according to ombudsman’s recommendations, given that the ombudsman EMAG, even at its height yielded no more than £300 a was so clear that there was administrative and regulatory month. failure? In July 2001, the new board of directors slashed policy values by 16 per cent.—about £4 billion—and Mr. Hamilton: Yes, I certainly agree with the right proceeded to effect a compromise scheme to deal with hon. Gentleman. Again, I will go on to highlight that the guaranteed annuity rate issue. However, Equitable matter further on in my remarks—I am afraid that we Life’s problems were too deep-seated, so the scheme are not quite at the end of them yet. was not enough to enable it to ride out the stock market The Public Administration Committee also said: falls of 2001-02. In 2002, policy values were cut by another 10 per cent. and the society was forced to invest “It would also be wrong for the Government to refuse almost exclusively in fixed interest stocks. Almost none compensation on the basis of Lord Penrose’s conclusion that of its money was invested in equity shares, so it could Equitable Life was ‘principally…the author of its own misfortunes.’” not operate as a with-profit insurer and its policyholders Paragraph 50 of the report begins: did not benefit from the stock market’s substantial rise “The decision to compensate must not, however, be the equivalent between 2003 to 2007. of signing a blank cheque on taxpayers’ behalf.” As I am sure we all remember, in 2004, Lord Penrose But the Committee concludes: carried out an investigation into Equitable Life. However, “We also highlight the Ombudsman’s conclusion that not all he had no power to apportion blame or recommend policyholders suffered loss; this should not be a case of compensation compensation. He highlighted the society’s unsustainable for all.” bonus policy and the I am sure that many hon. Members will recall that, “practices of dubious actuarial merit” on 15 January this year, the then Treasury Minister, who that it used to discourage action by the regulators. He is now the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, concluded: delivered a fulsome apology in the House. She implied that there was a comprehensive acceptance of the “Principally, the Society was the author of its own misfortunes.” Parliamentary ombudsman’s report and said that she However, crucially, he went on to say: would provide the services of a retired Lord Justice of “but it may be appropriate to comment that the practices of the Appeal, Sir John Chadwick, to deal with the technicalities Society’s management could not have been sustained over a of the recommendations. material part of the 1990s had there been in place an appropriate regulatory structure adapted to the requirements of a changing industry that happened to manifest themselves in an extreme Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): Does the form in the case of Equitable Life.” hon. Gentleman accept that, nearly a year on, the recommendations are not being dealt with? Indeed, I He also found that understand that Sir John Chadwick has refused to meet “the standards of scrutiny still impress me as complacent, lacking 140 members of the all-party group on justice for challenge, and hesitant in criticism and in following up on any Equitable Life policyholders. Does he not think it is criticism made.” absolutely shocking that somebody whom the Government In its December 2008 report, one of the many have appointed to deal with the recommendations will recommendations of the Public Administration Committee not even listen to a large group of MPs who have stated: constituents with concerns? 273WH Equitable Life24 JUNE 2009 Equitable Life 274WH

Mr. Hamilton: Yes, I agree with the hon. Lady. I will sets the total compensation amount and lets the Parliamentary address some of her points in a minute. I am not quite Ombudsman’s proposed Tribunal get on with distributing it fairly sure where I got to. The Secretary of State for Work and and swiftly.” Pensions, who was the then Treasury Minister, delivered Along with many countries in the western world, we a fulsome apology—[Interruption.] It was a fulsome have a growing problem of an ageing population that apology—these are the words of EMAG, in fact. needs to be encouraged to make greater provision for its own retirement and old age. The state simply will not have sufficient resources to provide enough money in Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): I am grateful statutory pension payments. The problem will only to the hon. Gentleman for giving way twice on the same become worse as the years pass and the proportion of point. Does he not agree that many Equitable Life younger people in work reduces in relation to those in policyholders felt great hope when they heard of the retirement. It is already clear that my generation, now appointment of Sir John, but having seen his June in our mid-50s, will have to work longer before retirement. publication—his proposals on the approach to be However, unless we can save more and see our savings adopted—they are now shattered to find that he believes growing securely, there will be little confidence that his terms of reference allow him to look only at a there is any point in saving at all. limited and narrow number of issues? Few people will therefore receive any compensation, and those who do The Equitable Life scandal has severely reduced the are likely to receive a minimal amount. confidence that the people of this country have in the principle of saving for retirement. If investing a large proportion of earnings results in it either disappearing Mr. Hamilton: I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. or greatly reducing in value, the lack of trust in the Again, I hope to address some of those points in a few system will remove any incentive to make personal minutes. I have some proposals that I hope the Minister provision from a lifetime’s earnings and lead to increased will respond to positively. I live in hope—[Interruption.] poverty in old age. One has to be an eternal optimist to be in this job. It appeared that compensation was on the horizon Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I declare an interest: for the victims of the Equitable Life scandal; but sadly, like many MPs, I had an Equitable Life policy. We know that was not the case. What was not said was that the that even with the ombudsman’s public and formal Command Paper released later that day—15 January—was indictment of the Government, they will continue to totally at odds with the tone of the statement. In the prevaricate. Is it not time that Parliament, on a cross-party small print, the apology, the ex gratia payments scheme basis, took hold of the issue and forced it forward, as it and the Treasury’s instruction to Sir John Chadwick did with the Gurkhas? Is that not what we should be were all restricted to those findings of the parliamentary doing now? ombudsman that the Treasury accepted. However, it rejected three out of four of the most expensive of the Mr. Hamilton: There is a reasonable spread of Members ombudsman’s recommendations. here from all parties. I would hope that perhaps Parliament could do that, under the leadership of our new Speaker. Earlier this month, Sir John Chadwick published a Let me finish my remarks, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman document, “Equitable Life ex-gratia payment scheme”, will want to come in, if he is able to. with the subtitle, “My proposals as to the approach to be adopted and the issues to be addressed”. In the In the end, of course, the state will have to foot the document, he repeats that the Government accept the bill, thus increasing the cost to all of us through higher ombudsman’s finding that the injustice suffered by taxation. It is imperative that we are able to save, and policyholders should be looked at on an individual able to save reliably, knowing that our money will not be basis. He states that he is satisfied that his terms of wasted or disappear through incompetence. reference do not require him to engage in any form of It has been said that this scandal affected only the means-testing in relation to individual policyholders, well-off and that ordinary people with relatively small but that they oblige him to disregard any of the savings were not involved. Let me remind hon. Members ombudsman’s findings of maladministration and injustice, and the Government that EMAG told the Public which are not accepted by the Government. Administration Committee that Surely, the fatal flaw in the Treasury’s proposals is “the majority of Equitable Life’s policyholders had modest sized that Sir John Chadwick cannot satisfy either the pensions and were not ‘fat cats’ who ‘risked their money to get policyholders represented by EMAG, the parliamentary above average returns’. In particular, the average investment of ombudsman, the Public Administration Committee or, the half million individual policyholders amounted to £45,000 each, which in today’s money would buy a pension paying around indeed, what remains of Equitable Life itself unless he £75 per week.” has a remit to address all the recommendations made in Ann Abraham’s original report of July 2008. That is To conclude, I ask the Minister these questions. Will why she published her further report last month, and she amend Sir John Chadwick’s terms of reference to that is one reason why I requested this debate in the first include all the recommendations of the parliamentary place. ombudsman’s report, “Equitable Life: a decade of regulatory failure”? Will she agree to implement the EMAG tells me that, ultimately, the amount of proposal put by EMAG that Parliament sets a total compensation is a matter for Parliament, rather than amount of compensation for individual policyholders the ombudsman or a court. EMAG states: affected by the collapse of Equitable Life, and then “Like Ann Abraham, we know that theoretically Parliament allows the proposed tribunal to get on with the job of could decide upon compensation of any amount, from billions of distributing the money quickly and fairly? Will she pounds down to nothing. Indeed, we have suggested that Parliament accept that the delay caused so far has meant that many 275WH Equitable Life24 JUNE 2009 Equitable Life 276WH policyholders, who suffered through no fault of their investigation, there was hope and optimism, but it was own, have either endured financial hardship or have transient. There was an apology, but, as we know from died in the meantime? I believe that up to 15 people die the health service, an apology is easy to give but means each week. nothing if it does not lead to action. Action and, obviously, compensation are needed. Bob Spink: Each day. In the few minutes available to me, I want to read some quotes from some of the letters that I, like the Mr. Hamilton: Sorry—each day. That is even worse. I hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Mr. Hamilton), will say “each week,” because that is the statistic that I have received. I wish to remind the House and the was given, but even that is unacceptable. Minister of people’s anger and complete frustration. This is from a letter dated 19 January that was written David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I am following the Commons statement: sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman’s conclusion, but he made a comment earlier that may not be true. He “Yes I would like to comment but will keep these comments said that it will cost more if the Government take a long brief least my disappointment makes my ‘pen’ run red. I consider the statement, some 10 years in the making was abysmal. It was time to deal with the issue. The very fact that he just deliberately vague, timescales are non-existent and it depends on mentioned a death rate of 15 a day—thousands a public finances…Maybe they hope that if they can defer any year—may mean that this gets cheaper over time. Would payment for another 10 years, the remaining members will have he ask the Minister how much is being saved as a result died or will not be able to remember that Equitable Life even of the mortality rate of Equitable Life policyholders, so existed.” that we can know what the incentive to the Treasury is Another long letter, of which I will read only a little, to take a long time over this? mentions the personal loss by a couple who had put all their savings into Equitable Life on the advice of various Mr. Hamilton: I give way to the hon. Gentleman. Governments and trusted regulatory bodies. Their pension expectation is now less than 20 per cent. of what they Bob Spink: The Library note said 15 per day. thought it would be. They make a cutting comment: “While the government merely sat back and absolved itself of Mr. Hamilton: Per day—okay, I shall correct the all responsibility, its only action was to resolve the issue as far as record and say “per day,” if that is what the Library their own members were concerned granting all MPs, many of note says. whom had entrusted their own pensions to Equitable Life, a generous and secure pension funded by myself and other taxpayers.” I thank the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden for his remark, but my point was based on the The letter continued: fact that, if few of us save for our retirement because we “I also find it sad that the cost of any request for justice must have no confidence that the system will yield sufficient inevitably fall on the taxpayer and am therefore reluctant to return, it will cost the Treasury and the state considerably pursue this issue.” more. I was not referring to those who die each day. Finally, does the Minister accept that the phrase Sir John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West) (Con): Does “injustice unremedied” has real meaning to many people the hon. Gentleman agree that the present position not and that it is about time that hundreds of thousands of only undermines people’s faith in their ability to invest investors received real justice? If she were able to answer for their future, but significantly undermines the office those questions positively, I believe that this injustice of the ombudsman and the public’s belief that they may could be brought to an end rapidly and that the Government obtain some redress for wrongdoing by going to the would receive credit for their resolution. If not, I fear ombudsman? We have a brave ombudsman, and she that resentment and bitterness will continue, at huge should have had better recognition. cost to the individuals who have suffered and to the country as a whole. Dr. Taylor: I am grateful for that intervention, and that will be one of my main concluding points. 2.57 pm Other letters that I have received emphasise how much and how many people had put all their savings Dr. Richard Taylor (Wyre Forest) (Ind): I am staggered into Equitable Life, because they were probably not but absolutely delighted to be called so early, Mr. Caton. brought up to know that one should not put all one’s As an independent, I have not had to choose where to eggs in one basket. They put them all in one basket, and go this afternoon, because other independents are speaking, they have lost vast amounts. One investor transferred I hope, in the debate in the main Chamber. I relish this funds from his company’s final salary scheme as recently opportunity and thank you for calling me. as 2004. He asks: Like many hon. Members, I have a large number of “Could it be possible that the society was insolvent when my constituents who have suffered from the situation under funds were transferred in 2004 from my company’s final salary discussion. The number of letters that I have received scheme? Probably I will never know.” on the matter competes with that on any other affair in Another correspondent, who has written frequently for which I have been involved. The correspondence goes many years to the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of back a long time, and many of the people who have the Exchequer, and has copied every one of his 30 or 40 been writing have been persistent. letters to me, drew attention most recently to the state What makes the situation so bad is that it has been pension, which when he wrote was only 31 per cent. of such a rollercoaster. There have been moments of deep average earnings, compared with an average 59 per cent. gloom, and moments of slight optimism. When the in other OECD countries. That compounds the outrage ombudsman’s report came out after four years of felt by Equitable Life members. 277WH Equitable Life24 JUNE 2009 Equitable Life 278WH

[Dr. Richard Taylor] trunk on which she must work. What extra resources will the ombudsman have, and how will the Government The final letter that I will read is short and to the restore confidence in her power and effectiveness? point. It was written on 22 June and says: I hope that my final point will not be too unpopular. “My wife and I have suffered appallingly at the hands of both Remembering the bitter comment about MPs feathering Equitable Life and the Government’s refusal to compensate. their own nests with their pensions, what are we, as Please let me know what positive action you are taking in this MPs, going to do? Are we going to think of other direction. people when we discuss our parliamentary pensions, This is far more important to us than your wretched expenses and are we going to remember the people who are so debacle and who the next speaker is.” much worse off than ourselves? That sums up the situation. The anger, frustration and disappointment are immense. 3.7 pm Obviously, I would like the Minister to answer the questions posed by the hon. Member for Leeds, North-East. Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab): There is Would compensation have to come from the taxpayer? I “clear and unmistakable evidence in the ombudsman’s report am sure that the Government have some secret money of five significant areas of maladministration by the Department... somewhere, tucked under someone’s mattress. I like to Many pensioners have...lost their life savings… I must ask why think that the money could come from somewhere else. we have had to rely on the ombudsman to confirm the Would paying compensation to people who have suffered mismanagement...and incompetence that was widely known about so badly from proven maladministration form a totally more than one year ago... Does the Secretary of State agree that the House will find it strange that he...continues to deny the unaffordable precedent? Are there any exact replicas of Government’s responsibility for mistakes and does not even apologise the Equitable Life situation? The Barlow Clowes affair for his Department’s role?”—[ Official Report, 19 December was mentioned in a previous debate, but at the time 1989; Vol. 164, c. 204.] maladministration had not been proven for Equitable Hon. Members will realise that those are not my words, Life. I hope that the Minister will offer a constructive or even those of my correspondent, Mr. GKB of Mount and rapid way forward. Stewart avenue. They are the words of the Prime Minister I shall conclude with two points. The first, to which when he was a Front-Bench spokesman commenting on reference has been made, is about the ombudsman. I Barlow Clowes. Sadly, they are equally relevant to today’s thought the word must come from Greek and I looked debate. in Webster’s dictionary. Webster had not heard of it, but Mr Robert C of Churchill avenue, Kenton wrote to it had the word “ombu”, which is a tree with a broad me simply saying: trunk that is isolated in the south American pampas. I “I am an 81 years old with-profits annuitant who has seen his thought that that was the origin of the beginning of the annuity decrease by almost one-half over the past few years.” word because the ombudsman is isolated, on her own, works against many people, and has a tremendously One of his close neighbours—I am sure that they are broad base. But when I looked in Chambers and the unconnected and unknown to each other—Mr. Harold Oxford dictionary, I saw that it is a Swedish word, G of Grendon gardens, Wembley Park, tells that he which I am sure all hon. Members know. I like the suffered a 53.34 per cent. drop in his income. In the light Chambers definition of the Swedish meaning, which is of the comments of the hon. and independent Member “grievance man”, and it adds, importantly, that he is for Wyre Forest (Dr. Taylor), I calculated just what that “independent”. would mean for a Member of Parliament. Instead of our salary of £64,000 a year, we would have an income What have the Government done? They have disregarded of £34,000 a year—about a 53.34 per cent. drop—but all the ombudsman’s recommendations, vitally undermining the incomes of Mr. Harold G and Mr. Robert C are her position as an independent critic of the Government nowhere near those levels. Indeed, the 53.34 per cent. who must be listened to. drop that Mr. Harold G was talking about results in a loss of £4,740 a year. His income—much less than Mr. Letwin: I believe that the Government have accepted £10,000 a year—has been cut in half. four of the ombudsman’s recommendations, but the gist of what the hon. Gentleman says is right. Does he agree Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Does the hon. Gentleman that the position is even worse than he says, because the agree that despite the perception that these pensioners Government have not only rejected the recommendations, had huge amounts of money in Equitable Life and but failed to explain why they rejected them? They have other places, the vast majority are real people who are not even treated the ombudsman seriously enough to in real difficulty at the most vulnerable time in their explain. lives? Indeed, at a recent EMAG meeting, I met a lady and a gentleman who now live in a caravan because they Dr. Taylor: I thank the right hon. Gentleman. Such have lost their home, which they could no longer afford behaviour by the Government towards the ombudsman to pay for when the Equitable Life pension that they has occurred at a time when she is vital. expected was not forthcoming. Does the hon. Gentleman I cannot resist returning to the subject of the NHS. agree that we really need to get across to the Government Its complaints system has been dramatically changed that we are not talking about people with huge amounts because the Government have removed the second stage, of money? People all over the country are being reduced which was the automatic independent review by the to living in basic, dire circumstances. Healthcare Commission, so there is now no promised independent review without going to the ombudsman. Barry Gardiner: The hon. Lady speaks eloquently She is now the Parliamentary and Health Service about the situation. I absolutely agree that these people Ombudsman, so the Government are broadening the are not rich—they are not fat cats and they have not 279WH Equitable Life24 JUNE 2009 Equitable Life 280WH salted away great quantities of money for their old age. 3.15 pm They have simply done what they believed was right by making provision from their normal, average incomes Mr. Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): I congratulate when they were in work, so that they could support the hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Mr. Hamilton) themselves when they were not in work. Sadly, through on securing the debate and giving us another opportunity no fault of their own, they have sometimes found to try to persuade the Government to do the right thing themselves trapped. One constituent wrote to me, saying: by Equitable Life policyholders. “We ‘trapped’ Annuitants have fared inexcusably badly, especially The title that the ombudsman gave to her report— after assurances at the outset of Government surveillance. We “Equitable Life: a decade of regulatory failure”—sums couldn’t leave, and did not have any options other Policy Holders the situation up very well. When Equitable Life was had, such as only AVCs. We have also borne the brunt of losses forced to default on its obligations to policyholders in with E.L., continuing through to Prudential, with no relief from 2000, it is estimated that more than 1 million policyholders the E.L. calculation system, and probable further reductions”. lost part of their savings. Therefore, we all have victims That is what people have been faced with. in our constituencies. I share the hon. Gentleman’s outrage at the fact that the situation is still unresolved The point has already been made that we are talking nine years later. about people who are in the later years of their lives. Many have been pensioners for seven, eight or more In the nine years since 2000, about 30,000 policyholders years and have found themselves in this nightmare at a have died. As we heard earlier, the Library estimates time in their lives when they should be able to feel that that another 15 people die each day. It is important to they have got away from the stress of working life and remember that the victims of the collapse are elderly careers. They should actually be enjoying some form of people who now face hard times. They did what successive retirement, but they have not been able to do so. The Governments recommended they do, by making provision hon. Lady’s comment about her constituents who have for their retirement. They made sacrifices earlier in their been forced to move into a caravan displays exactly the lives to make provision for their old age. These are the problems that people now face. victims that we are talking about. I do not wish to speak at great length. I simple wish to say that all of us come to the House because we are Paul Holmes (Chesterfield) (LD): I apologise to the propelled in some way by a sense of justice, and I know hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Mr. Hamilton) absolutely that my hon. Friend the Minister also has for not being here at the start of the debate, but I was in that at the core of her political being. a Delegated Legislation Committee at the time. Have constituents approached my hon. Friend to tell him For far too many years, we have been meeting in this about the double whammy that they face? One constituent, room to discuss this issue—indeed, I remember our first who lives in a terraced house close to my constituency debate, which I attended with other hon. Members who office—she is certainly not a fat cat with lots of assets—faces are present today—and we have had subsequent debates a double whammy. She is a pensioner who has been on the Floor of the House. We have gone over so much denied the Equitable Life investment that she prudently of the same ground, but officialdom has prevaricated saved for all her life, but she also cares for her two and tried to weave in and out of the complexities. elderly parents, one of whom has Alzheimer’s and the I absolutely accept that the Government should not other of whom has Parkinson’s. She can no longer get put themselves in a position where every failure by attendance allowance, because she is a pensioner. She is financial organisations becomes a matter for Ministers. being hit on every side. All she ever did was prudently Of course none of us would wish to see that. That save for her old age, but she has been denied her would be to write a blank cheque to financial institutions investment. and encourage them not to take care in their management and procedures. Mr. Reid: My hon. Friend is quite right. I am sure that a lot of elderly people are in that situation. Annette Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) (LD): The parliamentary ombudsman concluded that there Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that basic principles had been maladministration and injustice, yet the of fairness, timeliness and transparency would be much Government are fiercely resisting paying the compensation appreciated at this stage? that the ombudsman said was due to policyholders.

Mr. Letwin: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a Barry Gardiner: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. remarkable feature of the scene is that the ombudsman She goes to what we all believe is the central point: the made it clear that she thought that it was reasonable for situation has gone on too long. People are dying, having the Government to take into account fiscal constraints? spent the last years of their lives worrying and being She was not even asking for total compensation, but for unable to afford the little niceties that they would have compensation that was reasonable under the circumstances. liked to buy for their grandchildren’s birthdays. That is the fundamental injustice here, and officialdom and bureaucracy must take that on board. A Government Mr. Reid: The right hon. Gentleman is right about who are in listening mode must not simply acknowledge what the ombudsman said, and I agree that the Government that point—they must do something to redress it. That should take that into account in implementing the is why it is essential that the Treasury move with speed ombudsman’s recommendations. and certainty to make full compensation available quickly, The case for compensation is straightforward. The before any more people are unable to benefit because of maladministration by the regulator was a direct cause the time that has elapsed while the Government have of the injustice suffered by policyholders. The regulator dithered. was a Government responsibility, so the Government 281WH Equitable Life24 JUNE 2009 Equitable Life 282WH

[Mr. Alan Reid] I also ask the Government to reflect on the signal that they are sending out. Unless compensation is paid, should accept the ombudsman’s recommendations to what is there to encourage people of working age to establish a compensation scheme to pay those who save for their retirement? The regulatory failure is the suffered the injustice. That injustice was caused by the Government’s responsibility, so natural justice demands failure of public bodies. The aim of such a scheme that they implement the ombudsman’s recommendations. should be to put those who suffered a loss back into the position that they would have been in had the regulator’s Mr. Martin Caton (in the Chair): I will call the hon. maladministration not occurred. Member for Richmond Park (Susan Kramer) now, but The ombudsman said that it would be reasonable to I should be enormously grateful if she would sit down expect a compensation scheme to be established within at 3.30, so that we can hear the winding-up speeches. six months of any decision by the Government and Parliament to establish such a scheme. Given the advanced age of many of the policyholders, it is important that 3.22 pm the Government and Parliament should aim to meet that timetable. However, the remit that the Government Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): I shall take that gave to Sir John Chadwick is utterly inadequate. It is as absolute direction, Mr. Caton; in fact, I am being greatly restrained by the fact that Sir John is allowed to instructed to take an even shorter time, perhaps to allow take into account only those recommendations that the one more hon. Member a couple of words, if possible. Government accepted. I believe that that breaks the I particularly want to congratulate the hon. Member link in the chain between maladministration, injustice for Leeds, North-East (Mr. Hamilton) on obtaining the and compensation. debate, because debates keep up the constant pressure. Although relatively little that is new happens between David Davis: I have been contrasting the approach each of the Westminster Hall debates on the subject that the Government have taken in the case of Equitable under discussion, the Government must know that the Life with the much better approach that was taken over Members of this House are not going to go away. That the state earnings-related pension scheme disaster, which is a critical message. the hon. Gentleman may remember. One reason for the I also congratulate the Equitable Members Action difference in approach was that, after the SERPS disaster, Group, whose activities have made it clear that pressure two Committees of the House—the Public Accounts from policyholders is not going to go away. It will Committee and the Public Administration Committee— continue, and they will have their day in the High received evidence and made strong recommendations. It Court, pursuing their judicial review, towards the end of was their thrust that made the Government spend some July. I wish them the best. Perhaps most importantly I billions—I think it was £3 billion; the hon. Gentleman congratulate the 272 Members of Parliament who have will remember, because he served on one of the Committees. signed the early-day motion. That is practically a voting A problem now is that Chadwick is reporting not to the majority in the House, particularly if we take into House but to the Treasury, whose primary interest in account the number of hon. Members who simply do the present economic disaster is saving money. The not sign EDMs. I think it is the No. 1 EDM, if one can issue is a moral one, as all the speeches this afternoon calibrate them in that way. That carries through the have highlighted. Therefore, should not Chadwick report incredibly important message that were the motion to first to the House, not the Treasury? The House is the be put to the House, which, it seems to me, should be moral guardian in the matter of Equitable Life. the ultimate decision maker, it would almost certainly pass, and would uphold the ombudsman and her report, Mr. Reid: The right hon. Gentleman is perfectly and the decision for compensation. I join the others correct. It is important also to remember that the who have argued that as we look, now, to reforming the ombudsman is the parliamentary ombudsman, and not House, a crucial message is being given, to drive us the Government ombudsman. Parliament, not the towards creating opportunities for the House to have its Government, should take the decisions. I hope that, say on such crucial matters. through the deliberations of the Committee that we I read with dismay the proposals from Sir John shall set up tomorrow, we may get to a situation in Chadwick on the approach that he would adopt and the which individual hon. Members can initiate motions in issues to be addressed in his work on the Equitable Life the House—I believe that that used to be the situation, ex gratia payment scheme. I know that I am putting long before I entered the House—as early-day motion 1423 words into his mouth, but between every line one discerns on Equitable Life, which many hon. Members have a great sense of virtual despair as Sir John repeats again signed, could then be debated and voted on in the and again that he is limited by the terms of reference House. that require him not to address any issues that have not In May, the ombudsman used what has been described been accepted by the Treasury.Going through the document as the nuclear option. She used her ultimate sanction of one gets his sense that his work is practically pointless laying before Parliament a short report expressing her because it covers so few issues and can bring about so gross dissatisfaction with the Government’s inadequate little compensation. response to her original report. Like that original report, There have been discussions of the cost of compensation, her follow-up report is accurately titled: “Injustice but they come in the context of a banking crisis in unremedied”. She used the phrase “deeply disappointed”, which the Government have stepped in to rescue many which is strong language from an ombudsman. I hope individuals facing hardship, often, again, because of that the Government will reflect on it and implement regulatory failure. The underlying principle that the the recommendations. Government should compensate for regulatory failure 283WH Equitable Life24 JUNE 2009 Equitable Life 284WH seems to me fundamental for a civilised society. We are but also appropriate by offering my congratulations not asking the Government to compensate for market and gratitude to the hon. Member for Leeds, North-East failure. (Mr. Hamilton) on raising the topic. I welcome the The issue is one on which the House is exercised not Exchequer Secretary to her position. She is new to the only because of the victims— the Equitable Life Treasury. I hope that I do not sound churlish when I say policyholders—but because it represents the dismissal, that it would have been better had the Economic Secretary, once again, of Parliament’s voice, in Parliament’s who continues to serve in the Treasury, been present, ombudsman. If that role is to have importance and because that would have offered greater continuity with strength Members of Parliament must stand behind the the many previous debates in which he has given statements ombudsman. If we choose not to do so in a situation of or replied on the Government’s behalf. Nevertheless, we this kind, where the case is so evident, we shall be look forward to hearing the Exchequer Secretary’s response. ceding powers that should be retained by Members of The background to this matter will be familiar to the House, and not transferred even to so important a most if not all hon. Members present. The Government, body of Government as the Treasury. through the then Department of Trade and Industry, the Financial Services Authority and the Government Mr. Martin Caton (in the Chair): I call the right hon. Actuary’s Department, had responsibility for ensuring Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) with that the company Equitable Life acted properly and the same appeal to conclude at 3.30. prudently. There have been no fewer than 13 reports on 3.27 pm the failure of Equitable Life. The ones cited most often include those by Lord Penrose and by the FSA on its Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Yes, Mr. Caton; role from 1999 to 2000. Even the European Parliament I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for issued a report on the subject. Richmond Park (Susan Kramer). I declared earlier a tiny interest in respect of a small pension policy of my However, the report that everyone concentrates on late wife. and that has been mentioned repeatedly during this Why did people save with Equitable Life? It seemed debate is by the parliamentary ombudsman. It cost, I the right place for people of a cautious disposition. It am told, £3.5 million and took four years to bring to a was a mutual. Its elegant notepaper claimed that it was conclusion. An extremely thorough report, it is entitled the oldest mutual in the world. It was the choice for “Equitable Life: a decade of regulatory failure”. The their own savings of many of the professionals who report does exactly what it says on the tin. We almost do gave advice to others. It was a body that seemed the not need to read the report; the title itself tells us the appropriate choice for people who simply wanted to verdict that was arrived at. Nevertheless, it is worth make cautious and prudent provision for their retirement. pulling out a few quotes. The ombudsman said that the Government’s restrictions on earlier inquiries were I want to enunciate some principles. First, compensation “iniquitous and unfair”. The DTI’s oversight of Equitable is compensation, and should not be means-tested, which Life had been “passive, reactive and complacent”. The is the real implication of the statement by the Minister FSA’s regulatory efforts had been referred to so often today. Secondly, compensation is an essential discipline of the regulatory and governmental “largely ineffective and often inappropriate”. system. If no consequences follow from regulatory failure, The policyholders had either for the regulating body or the Government, there “a justifiable sense of outrage”. will be much more regulatory failure in the future. Just The language is stark. We are used to reading official as the market has its disciplines, so must the regulatory reports in which some of the criticisms are couched in system. more guarded terms, but the ombudsman’s conclusions No one is suggesting that what happened is all down could not be more explicit. to regulatory failure. The ombudsman has provided the Government with a basis on which to proceed to an I had the opportunity, from the exact position in assessment of how far regulatory failure affected the which I stand now, to debate the situation, as it then savings and stake of policyholders, compensating only existed, in this Chamber in November 2008, and many for regulatory failure, and even taking account of the of the hon. Members present today were also present at fiscal position. The ombudsman has done a very careful that debate. We were assured by the Government and and responsible job. later by the Prime Minister himself that the Government would respond to the ombudsman’s report by the end of What is our position now? The credibility of the 2008. I think that the Prime Minister said that it would ombudsman system is at stake—that system that we be by Christmas 2008, rather than by the end of the recommend to people as a way of putting their case, year, but we would have been willing to grant him the which we take to the ombudsman on their behalf. With extra week. In fact, the Government did not respond to it the credibility of Ministers is at stake. It is not the report within the timetable that they had promised, satisfactory to appear to be responding to ombudsman’s and when they did respond, the response was, by common recommendations, but not to carry them out, particularly consent, wholly inadequate. when that affects those who have been so vividly described by hon. Members during the debate, whose vulnerability Since the debate in this Chamber in November 2008, has been clearly set out, and who deserve a great deal there have been further contributions on the matter. better than they currently get. The Public Administration Committee undertook an inquiry into the ombudsman’s findings. Its report, entitled 3.29 pm “Justice denied? The Government’s response to the Mr. Jeremy Browne (Taunton) (LD): Thank you, Ombudsman’s report on Equitable Life”, said that the Mr. Caton, for giving me the opportunity to contribute Government’s excuses were to this extremely important debate. I start as is customary “shabby, constitutionally dubious and procedurally improper” 285WH Equitable Life24 JUNE 2009 Equitable Life 286WH

[Mr. Jeremy Browne] that we must incentivise people, as the population grows older, to save for their retirement, and it is precisely the and that the ex gratia payment scheme looks “slow and people who are heeding that call and seeking to behave onerous”. It is a constant theme that the Government responsibly whom we should be seeking to assist, rather appear to be playing for time and dragging their feet. than deter from saving. We heard earlier that that has consequences for all our More than anything else, we need to act with speed. constituents who are affected by this matter, who are The greatest frustration for most of the policyholders is dying on a daily basis without having the financial the Government’s inability to come to a speedy resolution. remedy that they rightly feel that they are owed. The money given to policyholders ought not to be The ombudsman published a further report on 5 May means-tested, because that is not the nature of the 2009—very recently—entitled, “Injustice unremedied: arrangement. I say as a concluding note and in a the Government’s response on Equitable Life”. We have conciliatory spirit—I hope that the Minister will engage already discussed that to some extent. It made a number on that basis—that no one or very few people are saying of points, all of which were critical of the Government—no, that they expect the compensation to be 100 per cent. to be fair, many of them were critical of the Government. There is recognition that improper or ill-advised judgments The overall tone was critical of the Government’s approach. were made by those directly responsible within Equitable Even the Equitable Life chairman, Vanni Treves, asked Life. There is also—this is a mature contribution to the in relation to the Government’s response, debate—recognition that we are, as a nation, borrowing “why haven’t our policyholders been treated as well as Northern £480 million every single day and that that backdrop Rock and RBS depositors have? At any other time this would must be taken into account when considering whether have been regarded as an absolute scandal.” the Government can be expected to commit to additional The Government have put in place yet another review. public spending. There is a lot of frustration on behalf of Equitable Life Nevertheless, even with those two important caveats, policyholders. To use the familiar phrase, the matter the Government have a responsibility, as the regulator, continues to be kicked into the long grass. We have yet to compensate for regulatory failure. The Exchequer another review and more institutional delay. The review Secretary must bring this issue to a head now on behalf is under the auspices of Sir John Chadwick. By common of the scores of constituents that I and all hon. Members consent, that review is inadequate. There is no definite have whose quality of life has been severely affected at timeline, unless the Minister can offer us one this afternoon. the most vulnerable time of their life, because of the Very few resources are available to Sir John Chadwick loss of savings due in large part to the regulatory failure to carry out the review in a way that many, including over which the Government presided. possibly him, would regard as desirable. The reporting process itself has been called into question. Ann Abraham, 3.39 pm the ombudsman, said: Mr. Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): I congratulate “Whatever the outcome of the work that Sir John Chadwick the hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Mr. Hamilton) will undertake, it is clear that the injustice I have found to have resulted from maladministration will not be remedied.” on securing this debate. It is vital that we continue to put pressure on the Government to respond properly to We could not have a more unequivocal response from the report of the ombudsman, and to ensure justice for the ombudsman than that. Equitable Life policyholders. We have had four debates The question now is what can be done, given that on the subject and today’s is the third in which I have track record of reports and the Government’s lamentable taken part as a Front Bencher, but I fear that it will not record in responding to them. It is worth saying first be the last. It has a long way to run. The longer it takes, that the Equitable Life fiasco was caused by systemic the more will policyholders be denied justice. failures that go back a reasonable way. To pre-empt what the Exchequer Secretary might say, the seeds of Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): the problem, according to both the Penrose report and My hon. Friend is right to point out that this is the the ombudsman’s report, date back to a period before fourth debate, but none of the debates has ended with a Labour was in government. I do not want the debate to vote. Would not the right way to resolve the matter be be unduly party political; I want the Minister to respond for the Government to put a proposition to the House, on behalf of the Government of the day, rather than us and to see whether the House supports them in a vote? having a debate along party lines. On that basis, let me concede that the Labour party could say with some Mr. Hoban: My right hon. Friend makes an interesting justification that the problem did not start on 1 May proposal. The Government are seeking to renew the 1997, when it came into government, although the House to make it the centre for decision making, and to problem has mainly been apparent and has grown since increase interest in Parliament. Using a long-running that date. issue such as Equitable Life would be the ideal way for It is imperative that the Government undertake a the Government to demonstrate their commitment to period of negotiation with policyholders. Why? We democratic renewal. I hope that Labour Back Benchers have just heard from my right hon. Friend the Member would encourage the Prime Minister, the Chief Whip for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) that many and the Leader of the House to have the debate in people sought to behave responsibly and Equitable Life Government time, to make the point that they want to was seen as the gold-standard saving option. It was seen see Parliament making such decisions. as beyond a normal commercial decision with the inherent The problem reflects on Parliament more broadly. As risks that such investments inevitably involve. It was a number of right hon. and hon. Members have said, seen by our constituents as the cautious, safe, prudent the ombudsman is an officer of Parliament. She is not a way to save for retirement. The point was made earlier government ombudsman but a parliamentary ombudsman. 287WH Equitable Life24 JUNE 2009 Equitable Life 288WH

In undermining her report by cherry-picking the conclusions Conservative Government. At each stage, whether the that she made nearly a year ago, the Government are regulator was the Department of Trade and Industry, undermining Parliament and the way in which we should the Treasury or the Financial Services Authority, those resolve such matters. policyholders were let down. The ombudsman seeks to address that in her report—to recognise that there was Sir John Butterfill: Does my hon. Friend agree that maladministration, that the maladministration led to that would give the Government an opportunity to injustice, and that payment must be made to reflect that explain to the House and the nation why they believe injustice. It undermines people’s confidence in the entire that depositors in Northern Rock and other failed regulatory system that, where there is evidence of banks are more worthy of support than the long-term maladministration and injustice, payments to policyholders savers in Equitable Life? do not seem to flow from that. It leads people to question whether their money is safe, and to ask whether Mr. Hoban: I am sure that the debate will provide the those institutions are well regulated. That important Government with an opportunity to respond not only point needs to be resolved. to that question but to questions on what has led to the delay in compensation to Equitable Life’s policyholders. Mention has been made of Sir John Chadwick. I It will be important for the Government to set out their believe that Sir John has been dealt a difficult hand. He case on how they have sought to deal with the matter. was given terms of reference with a narrow focus, which A number of Members referred to the statement restricted his ability to consider various issues. The made in January by the then Chief Secretary to the Government have clearly set out the findings. However, Treasury, now the Secretary of State for Work and Sir John produced his first issues paper last week. He Pensions, and the mismatch between that statement and hopes to receive conclusions in mid-July and to produce the Command Paper published shortly thereafter. The a further report in August. My understanding of what matter has not been properly debated on the Floor of Sir John said in his report is that there will be many the House in Government time in a way that would stages to the process before policyholders receive the allow us to address that inconsistency of approach. It is justice that they deserve. time for the Government voluntarily to make themselves I wish to ask the Minister some questions about accountable, rather than us having to raise the matter in progress. During our last debate, it was suggested that Westminster Hall in order to maintain pressure on Sir John was in the process of recruiting an actuarial them. adviser. Has that been completed? Is an actuarial adviser The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) said in place? If so, who is it? In the statement made by the that he rather hoped that the Economic Secretary to the then Chief Secretary to the Treasury in January, she Treasury would respond to the debate. Although there suggested that Sir John’s work would go in tandem with may be virtue in continuity, continuing to do the wrong work that the Treasury had undertaken. Will the Minister thing is not virtuous. outline what the Treasury has been doing since January? I appreciate that the Exchequer Secretary has been in At the time of the previous debate, Sir John had had post only for a few days, and that she has been on a one brief meeting with Equitable Life. Will the Minister rollercoaster, but I hope that she will not box herself in tell us how many more meetings Sir John has had with when responding to the debate. I hope that she leaves Equitable Life since then? Based on the work done by herself enough wiggle room to look afresh at how the Sir John and the Treasury to date, does the Minister Government have handled the matter and to see whether have a better estimate of how long it will take before the anything can be done to speed up the resolution of the first policyholder receives the first compensation cheque? issue. Each day longer means fewer policyholders receiving It is nearly a year after the ombudsman published her justice. report, and still there is no sense of who will receive Several Members spoke of their constituents’ concerns. compensation, how much they will receive and when They are not alone; constituents have been writing to they will receive it. me since I was elected in 2001, setting out their problems in coping with the financial problems that have arisen as Will the Minister confirm Sir John’s comments on a consequence of what happened at Equitable Life. means-testing? When the then Chief Secretary said in They want to see justice. Like the hon. Member for January that the Government were seeking to compensate Brent, North (Barry Gardiner), they cited the Prime people on whom Equitable Life had had a disproportionate Minister’s statement on Barlow Clowes. The Prime Minister impact, it was suggested that that meant means-testing. was as tenacious then in fighting for justice as he is Sir John said in paragraph 3.10 of his report: tenacious now in trying to avoid giving justice to Equitable “I am satisfied that the Terms of Reference do not require me Life’s policyholders. That attitude needs to change. The to engage in any form of means-testing in relation to individual disparity in his approach is clear to all. policyholders.” A point needs to be made about confidence in the pensions system. People entrust their money to pension Will the Minister confirm that means-testing is no companies. They want to make provision for their longer on the agenda? retirement. They want to ensure that they have a reasonable In recent weeks, the Government have been clear in income in retirement. However, they expect the regulator their use of language about policies to help with the to perform its duty by regulating those pension companies. recession. They talk about “real help now”. That rings What we have had, of course, is a decade of failure. hollow for Equitable Life policyholders. They have been The hon. Member for Taunton was right that the awaiting justice, have suffered a decline in their income problem lay not only with the Labour Government and have been struggling to make ends meet. I believe from 1997; the regulatory issues started under the preceding that they deserve real help now. 289WH Equitable Life24 JUNE 2009 Equitable Life 290WH

3.49 pm the guarantor of the regulated and the taxpayer does not stand as the insurer of last resort. The responsibility The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah to minimise risk and to prevent problems from occurring McCarthy-Fry): It is a pleasure to welcome you to the in a particular institution lies, first and foremost, with Chair, Mr. Caton. I congratulate my hon. Friend the the people who own and run that institution, as was Member for Leeds, North-East (Mr. Hamilton) on securing pointed out in Lord Penrose’s report. Lord Penrose also this debate. It is a testament that the events surrounding found regulatory system failures—I do not disagree Equitable Life continue to command a lot of attention with him—but concluded that they were secondary. from many hon. Members, as it should. The ombudsman recognised in her report that the Although this is the first time I have been called upon Government have to consider first the public interest to appear in a ministerial capacity at a debate on and secondly their responsibility to taxpayers generally Equitable Life, I have spent a considerable time getting to balance competing demands on the public purse. The up to speed and I am fully aware of the previous Public Administration Committee’s report stated: debates. Having looked through them, I think that it is fair to say that we are not covering much new ground “The decision to compensate must not be the equivalent of today. Many of the arguments have been heard many signing a blank cheque on taxpayers’ behalf.” times in this House. However, I thank all hon. Members, That is why we have set up a process that will establish all of whom spoke eloquently on behalf of their the facts on relative losses experienced by different constituents, for their contributions this afternoon. The groups of policyholders and the factors affecting those Government always welcome healthy debate and continuing losses. scrutiny, but I must be clear from the start: our position has not changed. We have made our response to the Mr. Hoban: Is the Minister saying that the Government ombudsman’s main report and we stand by it. We decided to restrict the number of findings made by the explained our reasons behind every rejection of her ombudsman because of the constraints on public finances? findings, and we believe that we had cogent reasons for doing so. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Categorically not. The right Reflecting the limited extent of her jurisdiction, the hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David parliamentary ombudsman’s second investigation into Davis), who is no longer in his seat, made an intervention the regulation of Equitable Life’s with-profits fund on this point. We are not delaying our response, and did under the Insurance Companies Act 1982 regime, which not disagree with the findings, in order to save money. has now been superseded, looked exclusively at the role of the prudential regulator and the Government Actuary’s Barry Gardiner: I, and many other hon. Members, Department. It was not permissible for her to consider accept that the Government’s intention is not to delay the actions of Equitable Life or any other party within simply to reduce costs. That would be an abhorrent the private sector. The substantial report published by allegation. None the less, that is the effect of what is the ombudsman in July last year was the culmination of happening. The Government must seriously address her four-year investigation. The factual and technical that point and speed things up to avoid that impression. complexity of the issues that she investigated, which themselves contributed to the length of her investigation, Sarah McCarthy-Fry: We intend to find a resolution are the reasons it has been necessary for the Government with our scheme as quickly as possible, but we also need to take time to consider the report. Indeed, the Government to get it right. would have been rightly criticised had they not considered My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East the report carefully before giving their response. mentioned the recent approach proposed by Sir John, I repeat that the Government accept that which he intends to operate, and the issues to be addressed. maladministration occurred in some areas and that in My hon. Friend and others said that Sir John should be some cases, but not all, that might have led to injustice able to consider all cases raised by the ombudsman, and for policyholders. The ombudsman welcomed the not just those that the Government agree with. We have Government’s acceptance of maladministration and of cogent reasons for accepting only those cases of the fact that some policyholders will have been adversely maladministration and injustice set out in our response. affected by regulatory failures. We have apologised for However, we had equally cogent reasons for departing that—and I do so again today—on behalf of the public from others, and it would be irrational to ask Sir John bodies and successive Governments responsible for the to consider those. It is important that we get this regulation of Equitable Life between 1990 and 2001. process under way as quickly as possible where we have accepted maladministration and injustices. For those We also accept that some policyholders might have cases, we want Sir John to get on with the scheme. suffered a disproportionate impact as a consequence of the maladministration and injustice accepted by the We all agree that this is a complex matter. The Government. We have looked in detail at the ombudsman’s ombudsman accepted that any scheme would take a central recommendation for a compensation scheme. considerable time—two and a half years, she said—but Several hon. Members suggested that the Government we are not setting a time limit. We need Sir John to do are at fault in not accepting the recommendation that the work, but we share everybody’s concern that the we should establish and fund a compensation scheme scheme pay out as swiftly as possible. with the aim of restoring those Equitable Life policyholders The hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) asked who suffered a loss as a result of the maladministration. about progress. Sir John has established his office and However, such views fail to take account of the important appointed its key staff, and has met and corresponded principle, recognised by Parliament, that it is not generally with Equitable Life. I do not have to hand the number appropriate for the taxpayer to pay compensation, even of times, if any, he has met it since the first meeting. in the event of regulatory failure. The regulator is not However, I shall write to the hon. Gentleman with that 291WH Equitable Life 24 JUNE 2009 292WH information. Sir John has established a website through School Governing Bodies (Appeals) which interested parties can keep informed of his work. Equitable Life has now provided him with records 4pm about policyholders. He has issued his document setting out his proposed approach and the issues to be addressed. (West Lancashire) (Lab): I am delighted He has asked interested parties to comment on those to have the opportunity to debate the issue of procedures proposals by 17 July. That is quite a tight time scale, but for appeals against school governing body decisions. we are trying to get the scheme under way as quickly as The need for the debate arose from the direct and possible. If any hon. Members wish to comment on his personal experience of my constituents. One case with proposed approach and issues, they should get that which I have been involved concerned a child with information to him. special educational needs. Those educational needs were The hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) said not being met and, over a number of years, contributed that Sir John has few resources available, but actually he to the child’s exclusion from school. The family as a is assisted by a team of office staff, ranging from whole was outrageously failed because of the fundamental counsel to administrative support and a private secretary, flaws within the governing body system. and the team has recently been joined by the expert The focus of this debate is to demonstrate how existing actuarial services of Towers Perrin—that answers another complaints procedures for schools cannot offer point made by the hon. Member for Fareham. independence and objectivity, how the very nature of As the Economic Secretary has stated, our preference governing bodies makes them reliant on educational is not for a means test, and we are certainly not asking professionals, and how the systemic flaws mean that Sir John to advise us on whether there should be one. parents are unable to seek an alternative redress for However, we shall consider Sir John’s advice if, when he their complaints. has finished the process, he comes to a different conclusion. In one particular case, the child had been diagnosed We are giving him a wide remit to consider how we can with Asperger’s syndrome. In year one of primary school, deliver the desired outcome. it was noticed that the child was displaying symptoms It is regrettable that the parliamentary ombudsman of “unusual behaviour”. His teacher had highlighted felt it necessary to lay her further report recording her that the child was struggling in school, and, many years view that the injustices that she found will not be later, that was confirmed by a psychologist. The initial remedied. We have the greatest respect for the office of failure of the school was not to request an assessment the ombudsman, and where we departed from her findings of the child by that educational psychologist. Teachers in the main report, we did so only after very careful often expressed serious concerns about the child’s behaviour consideration. When she announced the Government’s in class. Over a three-year period, the school failed to response in January, the then Chief Secretary explained take appropriate and reasonable steps to meet the special that there is no easy solution to the problems at Equitable educational needs of the child. Life and the faults that were found. She also made it The situation came to a head when the head teacher clear that the Government believe that their response to allegedly behaved inappropriately, which provoked an the ombudsman’s report is the right one. I agree with outburst that resulted in the expulsion of the child from that. the school. It was at that point that the parents sought The new help for policyholders announced is fair to redress from the school’s governing body through a them and to taxpayers. The need to resolve this matter formal complaint. It took more than nine months from is acknowledged on both sides of the House, including the submission of the original complaint for the chair by hon. Members today. I restate the Government’s of governors to report that his investigation was concluded. commitment to introduce their ex gratia payment scheme The contents of that final report failed to address the as quickly as possible. questions that were asked in the original complaint. Moreover, there is the question of how a governing body can be allowed to take nine months to complete an investigation. How can a simple investigation take that long? The length of time was due in part to the actions of the local education authority, which at best could be viewed as incompetent and at worst wilful misconduct. Five months after making the initial complaint, the local authority had not replied to the parents. The following month, the parents received a letter stating that the local authority had written to them three months earlier, and, in the absence of a response to its letter, which had never been received by the parents, the LEA indicated that it had assumed that the parents had ended their request for an investigation. When the parents were provided with a copy of the original letter—it was sent electronically—it was clear that it had been created at the same time as the letter telling the parents that it was assumed that they no longer wished to proceed. When the complaints appeals committee met on the matter, the parents argued that it had based its decision on misunderstandings and misrepresentations. Anecdotal 293WH School Governing Bodies (Appeals)24 JUNE 2009 School Governing Bodies (Appeals) 294WH

[Rosie Cooper] There appears to be no consideration given to the minimum standards or probity in conduct that parents evidence indicates that from the outset, the governors can expect when they make a complaint about or to the were dismissive of the complaint. The complaints appeals school. Such weaknesses are compounded by there committee upheld the original decision of the chair of being no alternative process through which parents can governors and cited that the original investigation was make a complaint. If they are dissatisfied with the satisfactorily conducted. governing body’s decision, which they believe might rely From the outset of this case, there were clear warning too much on educational professionals at the school signs that serious issues were not being addressed and and therefore not necessarily be independent, wherever that the system was not affording protection to the they turn is a dead end. family. The issues included the initial failure to assess Section 160 of the Education and Inspections Act the child’s SEN requirements, the actions of the head 2006 makes provision for Ofsted to investigate certain teacher, the decisions based on misrepresentations, the qualifying complaints from the parents of registered governors’ attitude towards the complaint throughout pupils at a school. Unfortunately, such complaints are the process, the length of time it took to attempt to restricted to those matters in which there is no alternative address those complaints, and, in the end, the failure to statutory route other than the schools complaints procedure. address all aspects of the complaint. That offers no recourse in the case under discussion as The parents of the child were both involved in the complaints must relate to the whole school, and not to education system, so they knew what to expect and the an individualised matter. result fell far short of that. How an ordinary parent The local government ombudsman can investigate would have managed against the system I do not know. school admissions and how a local authority has acted At that point, I intervened and called a meeting of the but it cannot investigate how a school governing body parents, senior directors and cabinet members from the has acted during an investigation, how the investigation local education authority. Only then did the parents was carried out and whether the child’s interests were begin to get answers to their specific questions, but by paramount throughout. Under sections 496 and 497 of that time, the child had moved schools for the sake of the Education Act 1996, any person can complain to his well-being and his education. That is a wholly the Secretary of State if they believe that the governing unsatisfactory situation. With help, it could have been body or local authority is acting unreasonably. Once avoided. The matter could have been resolved with the again, the Secretary of State is able to intervene only in child’s interests being paramount. limited circumstances, which makes it difficult for parents This is one of a number of cases that I could talk to believe that their complaints and their child’s interests about, and it provides an insight into the experiences of are paramount. individual families. I hope that those experiences serve The combination of a weak governing body and no to demonstrate that there are fundamental problems in alternative route for complaint means that education pursuing complaints through governing bodies. professionals could have a significant influence on the Let me briefly turn my attention to the systemic process. I believe that that happened in the case I failures. The weakness of the current governing body outlined. The governing body had a co-dependent rather system is that, as lay people, governors do not always than an independent relationship with the head teacher, have the knowledge, background, or skills to interpret a to the extent that the governing body did not want to be complex complaint such as that I have outlined. seen to challenge publicly the authority of the head Independent research by the highly respected Joseph teacher. However, the head teacher was at the very heart Rowntree Foundation has concluded that many school of the complaint, following the failure of teachers to governors lack the time and the expertise to fulfil their heed warnings over the child’s behaviour and the refusal role. It says that they are often overwhelmed by the to bring in an educational psychologist. Ultimately, the demands placed on them and that a major reform of head was accused of provoking the actions that resulted the system is necessary. It goes on to say that in many in a child’s expulsion from school. Given that outline of instances, governors and teachers may not really understand the details, how can any parent who complains to a what they are facing. That is true in the case that I school’s governing body feel reassured that an investigation mentioned of the child with special educational needs. will be conducted fairly, objectively and unprejudiced Many people who have suffered in a similar way by any outside influencing factors? would agree with the report’s findings. I understand We need to ask serious questions not only of the that under section 29 of the Education Act 2002, all governing body, but of the local education authority, governing bodies are required to have in place a procedure which is charged with providing help and support to to deal with complaints relating to all aspects of the governors. I am truly encouraged by the provisions in school. However, beyond the governing body’s complaints the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill, appeals committee, there does not seem to be a further which is currently before Parliament, for a new parental right of appeal. A ministerial response to one of my complaints service to be operated by the local commissioner, parliamentary questions stated: and for that to be introduced as a pilot. I very much “The extent to which the governing body has complied with welcome Ministers’ comments in Committee that statutory this duty is part of the school’s self evaluation process which guidance on the new complaints system will make it underpins the current Ofsted inspection regime.”—[Official Report, clear that complainants must not suffer discrimination. 15 June 2007; Vol. 461, c. 1357W.] In the light of this debate, I implore the Minister to Therefore, it is clear that the only safeguard to this consider my local education authority area for the pilot in-house process is a visit once every three years by an scheme. Whatever the outcome, there must surely be, in Ofsted inspector who will seek to validate the school’s this day and age, an independent assessment of the evaluation of its strengths and weaknesses. complaint and how it is handled. 295WH School Governing Bodies (Appeals)24 JUNE 2009 School Governing Bodies (Appeals) 296WH

The issues that I have highlighted during the debate investigation by the head teacher or the chair of governors need serious consideration and action, to ensure that a when appropriate; and, finally, if the complaint has still school’s governing body helps and supports families, not been resolved, a meeting of a panel of governors. and offers them a voice when they need it. I must put on Governing bodies must act for the interests of the record my absolute respect for the work of governors. children in their school, which should drive any decision They give of their time and have local interests at heart. that they take. They must also rigorously ensure that I encourage them to continue their vital work in their those who serve on complaints panels conduct a fair worthwhile roles, but perhaps with a more questioning and unprejudiced investigation. Of course, parents should edge when there is a dispute. I want them to approach be kept informed of progress and any decisions taken such matters with the child’s interests at heart. by the panel. There needs to be a greater focus on ensuring that Beyond the local level, when a parent remains unsatisfied minimum standards are in place so that parents know with the outcome of the complaints panel, some local what they can expect when they make a complaint to a authorities may offer an independent review of the governing body. For example, perhaps a simple place to complaint, although that is not a statutory requirement. start would be a clear timetable for the completion of All complainants, however, have the right to refer the an investigation. I want a system in which parents are matter to the Secretary of State if their complaint assured that they will get a fair and unprejudiced hearing cannot be resolved at local level. Under sections 496 and one in which there is independent support for and 497 of the Education Act 1996, the Secretary of governing bodies, to ensure that they have the skills State has the power to investigate a complaint and to and information to deal with complex cases, so as not issue a direction about a decision made by a governing to disadvantage children. Perhaps they ought to be body or a local authority, but he is able to do so only in able to call in experts outwith their local authority to very limited circumstances, namely when there has been help in such instances. Finally, when parents are a breach of a statutory duty or when the governing dissatisfied with the governing body, there needs to be body has acted “unreasonably”with regard to the exercise an option for an external body to review the substance of a power or the performance of a duty under the of the complaint. Education Acts. I ask the Minister to consider the Lancashire education The Secretary of State is not at liberty to substitute authority for one such pilot. My constituents need such his judgment for that of a local education authority or a help and they need it now. governing body just because he might have reached a different decision in the same circumstances. Rather, he must be satisfied that a decision is unreasonable in the 4.14 pm sense that no reasonable authority or governing body acting with due regard to their statutory responsibilities The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, would have reached such a decision. I should add that Schools and Families (Ms Diana R. Johnson): I congratulate “unreasonably” in this context has been interpreted by my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie the courts as meaning acting in a way in which no Cooper) on securing the debate. I know from the passionate sensible local education authority or governing body, way in which she spoke that she is very concerned about acting with due appreciation of its responsibilities, would the issue. have acted. That is a narrow and testing definition. For Governance, leadership and strong lines of accountability example, it does not allow the Secretary of State to are essential to making our schools a success. Parents substitute his own judgment for that of the governing should be able to send their children to school confident body, or to issue a direction because he would have that they will receive the highest possible standard of acted differently. education; that their health, well-being and safety are The Secretary of State therefore does not have the being cared for; and that any problems are dealt with by power to re-investigate matters that are properly the professionals in an appropriate and timely manner. responsibility of school governing bodies; he can only There must be mechanisms in place for parents to consider whether the school governing body acted express their concerns, secure in the knowledge that reasonably and within the law in handling and addressing they will be dealt with quickly, effectively and fairly by the complaint. Taking that into account, he needs to all involved—the head teacher, the senior leadership weigh all the matters and decide whether it is expedient team and the governing body. to issue a decision and whether there is a practical step I was concerned to hear of the experience of my hon. under his powers in education law that he can use to Friend’s constituent. I will be pleased to meet my hon. direct the governing body to take action. Friend with officials from the Department for Children, At the heart of the problem that my hon. Friend Schools and Families to discuss the circumstances of outlined was a child who fairly obviously had special the case. educational needs that were not being addressed. Local To set the scene, I shall talk about the complaints authorities have important and extensive duties to identify, procedure at a local level. Since September 2003, all assess and make provision for children with special schools have been required to have a complaints procedure. educational needs, and to keep their arrangements for That procedure must also be published so that it is doing so under review. Schools and governing bodies available for public scrutiny.My Department has produced must do their best to ensure that the necessary provision a complaints procedure toolkit to help schools to formulate is made for any pupil who has SEN. their complaints procedures. It took the form of non- When a child has a statement of SEN—my hon. statutory guidance that schools could use or adapt to Friend indicated that there was no statement in the case their circumstances. Generally, schools follow the three-part she outlined—parents may express a preference for the approach: investigation of a complaint by a staff member; maintained school, be it mainstream or special, that 297WH School Governing Bodies (Appeals)24 JUNE 2009 School Governing Bodies (Appeals) 298WH

[Ms Diana R. Johnson] Parent governors also have an important role to play. They can engage actively with the school community to they want their child to attend, or to make representations communicate the governing body’s decisions and give for a placement in a non-maintained special school or parents more knowledge of how the governing body independent school. Local authorities must comply with works. We will press ahead with our work to ensure that a parental request for a maintained school unless the all governing bodies have the vision, capacity and skills school is unsuitable to the child’s age, ability, aptitude to provide the best service possible for the children and or special educational needs, or the placement would be parents in their communities. The working group is still incompatible with the efficient education of other children conducting the review and will report later this year. with whom the child would be educated, or with the efficient use of resources. If parents disagree with the Work is also under way to strengthen the complaints school named by a local authority in their child’s statement, system for parents, following a commitment in the they have a right of appeal to the first-tier tribunal on children’s plan to consider how to improve the special educational needs and disability current arrangements. My hon. Friend referred to the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill, If parents believe that provision is not being made to which is in the Lords. We are doing two things in the meet their child’s needs, they should discuss it with the Bill: legislating to enable the local government ombudsman school in the first instance, through the school’s SEN to investigate complaints about individual school issues, co-ordinator and/or the head teacher. If they remain and producing both statutory and non-statutory guidance dissatisfied, they should then discuss the matter with to clarify the processes at school level. She was concerned the local authority maintaining their child’s statement. that matters should be dealt with in a timely way, and I If they still feel that there has been no satisfactory hope that that will be dealt with in the guidance. resolution, they can make a complaint to the Secretary of State through the SEN operations team in my The LGO will investigate complaints where there is Department. They should set out their concerns in no alternative right of appeal and where the complaint writing, explaining what provision specified in their relates directly to a school’s duty. In other cases, parents child’s statement the local authority is failing to provide will still be signposted to other routes. For instance, and enclose a copy of their child’s statement. complaints about permanent exclusions will still be The Secretary of State takes very seriously any failure heard by independent appeal panels, complaints related by a local authority to fulfil its statutory duties. Where to admissions will still go to the Office of the Schools necessary, the Secretary of State will not fail to exercise Adjudicator, and the first-tier tribunal will continue to the powers available to him under the Education Act hear complaints related to local authorities’ special 1996. There are, however, limits to those powers, and educational needs provision. If my hon. Friend wants any direction that he might make must be expedient and to write to me formally to say that her local education commensurate with the issue raised. authority is interested in being a pilot area for the On strengthening schools, my hon. Friend made much initiative, I will be happy to discuss it further with her. of the capacity of governing bodies and the decisions Most schools handle complaints quickly and effectively, that they might be asked to make. Of course, as our but where they do not, I know that they can cause school systems develop to meet the changing needs of frustration and upset to parents and pupils alike. That education and communities in the 21st century, we must is why we are reviewing the current system and improving continue to reassess our processes to ensure that they it to ensure that it is as robust as possible. That is also are fit for purpose. why it is important to have checks and balances right I note what my hon. Friend said about research by through the system, with a clear process so that parents the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. My right hon. Friend can be heard in the first instance and escalate their the Minister for Employment led a working group in his complaint if they feel that those handling their case previous role as Minister of State for Schools and have not given them a satisfactory level of service. We Learners to consider how governance will need to develop are not asking schools to do something extra. This is to meet the needs of 21st-century schools. One of the about a basic level of service that parents should be able issues being considered by the working group is improving to expect from every school, not just an elite few. the skills and training of governors. We will be enhancing Through our reforms, we will ensure that every school is training for governors so that it focuses on holding a good school, working hard at the heart of its community school leadership to account by effective challenge. to serve local children and their families. 299WH 24 JUNE 2009 Pet Passports 300WH

Pet Passports much-loved animals back into the UK, which could cause extreme distress and upset. In the vast majority of 4.25 pm cases, there are no problems. However, according to Department figures, in 2007, about 4,800 pets fell foul Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): I of the scheme and had various problems. There were am grateful to you, Mr. Caton, and to the previous some problems with microchips, as happened with my Speaker for allocating me this debate. It is good that we constituent. Another 1,300 cases were listed as “any will have an extra five minutes. I welcome the Minister other reason”. People should be aware that, in recent to his seat. Like me, he will know that we are a nation of years, the number of people who are faced with such animal lovers, which is a good thing, so the issues that problems has risen to just below 5,000 a year. we are debating will be of great concern to many of our constituents throughout the country. It is significant that pet insurance now covers the cost of quarantine for pet owners who are forced to pay I must confess that I did not know a great deal about huge sums like the £8,000 that my constituent faced. the pet passport scheme until one of my constituents That should alert us to the issue. I am pleased to put came to me a couple of months ago with a rather awful this matter on the public record, so that people are story about what had happened to her and her pet. I aware of the risk. Although the risk is small, some will say at the outset that officials at the Department for people may not want to take it if their pets are so Environment, Food and Rural Affairs have tried to be important that they could not bear to be parted from as helpful as possible to my constituent. I am grateful to them. them for that, but I believe that their hands might have been tied to a certain extent. The third area of public policy that I want to probe By the end of next month, my constituent will have the Minister on is the six-month quarantine that we been parted from her much-loved pet for a total of 13 insist on for animals coming into the country. The months. The dog has been outside the UK for two helpful briefing on this debate that I received from the six-month quarantine periods. The total cost to my British Veterinary Association said that Nigel Gibbens, constituent of keeping her dog outside the country now the chief veterinary officer, Professor Phil Craig of the approaches £8,000. Many pet owners would not be able university of Salford and Dr. Dilys Morgan of the to afford that, so when such things go wrong, sadly, it Health Protection Agency have stressed the need for the can effectively be the death sentence of the pets concerned. current UK requirements to continue. Those requirements I accept that the case is an unusual one, but having are exercised under a derogation from the European listened to what my constituent told me and done some Union scheme. However, those people who are much research, I have realised that numerous people fall foul more qualified on such issues than I am support the of the rules of the pet passport scheme every year. requirements only because of the problem of tapeworms, Before I describe in more detail what happened to my specifically the E. multilocularis tapeworm. Is that tapeworm constituent, it might be helpful if I run through the four the reason why the UK has a six-month quarantine and general policy areas that that sad saga has illuminated, is not part of the general European pet passport scheme? and I would be grateful if the Minister commented on We stand with only Ireland, Malta, Sweden and Finland them. I spoke to his private office early this morning, to in having a derogation that allows us to have tougher be as helpful as possible so that our debate could be enforcement provisions. constructive. The fourth and final general area of policy that this The first general question is how much discretion the debate can usefully highlight is about United Kingdom Secretary of State has in such matters. In the case of my dogs. The UK is thankfully rabies-free, and we must constituent, I think that the DEFRA officials generally take the proper measures to ensure that we stay rabies-free. recognised that the dog posed absolutely no risk whatever Dogs that originate from the UK will have had all the to the health of anyone—human or animal—in the correct vaccinations, blood tests and microchips. When United Kingdom. The dog had had four different blood British originated dogs return to the UK from abroad, tests under two different microchips. It was a British is there not a case for treating them slightly differently dog and had originated in the UK, which is of course to dogs from the rest of the EU, where rabies is still a rabies-free—a significant point. I am aware that the problem? It is principally a problem in Romania and Secretary of State has exercised his discretion on at Latvia, and is thankfully much less of a problem in the least two occasions to allow the strict requirements of rest of mainland Europe. I wonder whether discretion the pet travel scheme to be waived. They were two could be exercised in that area, perhaps in relation to distressing cases in which it was right for the Secretary my first point on the general discretion that the Secretary of State to act as he did. of State is allowed. My constituent was told by the Minister’s officials Those are the four issues that I want to raise. My that her last hope was for the Secretary of State to constituent’s case was tragic. There were two errors, authorise a risk assessment in her case. I pressed the neither of which were her fault. They were innocent Secretary of State hard to do so, but the letter that I errors; they were not made deliberately. The first error received said that it was not possible. My constituent was made by a vet after the dog’s original microchip and I are a little unclear about how much discretion the came out. A blood test was done after a new microchip Secretary of State has. As I said, it was recognised that was inserted. I understand that a revaccination should the dog in question did not pose any risk to public have taken place at that point. The dog was then moved health in the United Kingdom. I would be grateful if to America and had a subsequent blood test there at a the Minister elaborated on that slight uncertainty. local reputable laboratory. However, I understand that The second general point that I want to put on the the legislation states that the Department accepts only record and make pet owners aware of is that, in a one laboratory in the whole of the United States of minority of cases, people will not be able to bring their America as being valid as far as re-entry into the United 301WH Pet Passports24 JUNE 2009 Pet Passports 302WH

[Andrew Selous] the Minister and his colleagues in the Department for Transport putting on those airlines that fly in and out of Kingdom is concerned. That situation caused the second Luton to make sure that they do the right thing? Edinburgh six-month sentence for the dog, which is currently in jumps out as being an airport that is not on the list of Sweden. It is quite a well travelled dog; it has been half nine approved airports. Perhaps the Minister can tell way around the world. I am informed that, on 29 July, me what he is doing to make Edinburgh airport do what the dog will be warmly reunited with its owner who has the other airports have done. been resigned to waiting for the past month. I shall draw my remarks to a close. Again, I express In essence, that is what happened to my constituent. my gratitude to you, Mr. Caton, and to the former She has done a lot of research on this general area, and Speaker for allowing me to raise these issues in this land she has pointed me in the direction of a written answer of animal lovers, and I look forward to the Minister from the Minister’s predecessor, the right hon. Member responding as helpfully as he can to the various points for , Wavertree (Jane Kennedy), who responded that I have made. on 26 November 2008 to a parliamentary question from my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Ann 4.40 pm Winterton). It is wonderful that our constituents have all this information available through the internet, because The Minister of State, Department for Environment, they can see exactly what we are up to—the questions Food and Rural Affairs (Jim Fitzpatrick): It is a pleasure that we ask and the answers given by Departments. The to see you in the Chair this afternoon, Mr. Caton. I Minister’s predecessor said: congratulate the hon. Member for South-West Bedfordshire “Our current controls may no longer be proportionate to the (Andrew Selous) on securing the debate, which draws risk of rabies entering the UK.”—[Official Report, 26 November our attention to the important issue of how the UK 2008; Vol. 483, c. 1621W.] protects itself against diseases carried by animals, and The excellent officials who are sitting behind the Minister to the burden that responsible pet ownership can place obviously advised his predecessor on that. I would be on people who want to travel with their pets. We need to interested to hear his comments on the matter. I do not maintain our protection against rabies and other serious want to push the Department to do one thing or another. diseases while allowing people to move as freely as I am not scientifically qualified and I am not a vet, but I possible with their pets. am aware of the rabies risk in this country, and I am I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving my here in an interrogatory mode to try to get answers to office advance notice of specific issues that he would some of those questions. raise. I hope that I am able to respond to all of them in A final related issue is, again, of great significance to the course of my remarks. Clearly, if I do not or am not disabled constituents, particularly those who have difficulty able to, I would be happy to write to him in due course. with their sight or require assistance. I briefed the Rabies is a truly devastating disease and is almost Minister on that matter this morning. I should like to invariably fatal once a patient exhibits symptoms. Across express my appreciation of the work of the Guide Dogs the world, it kills some 55,000 people a year, largely in for the Blind Association, which contacted me to let me India, south-east Asia and Africa. Apart from infrequent know about the difficulties with certain airlines and cases in quarantine, the UK has been fortunate to be airports in relation to allowing assistance dogs to travel free from rabies for many decades, and the situation in with their owners who need assistance within the stipulation continental Europe has greatly improved in recent years. of the pet passport scheme. I am informed that that The risk of rabies, as well as the possibility of picking issue relates to the European regulation on the rights of up other diseases, means that no owner should take the disabled persons and persons with reduced mobility responsibility of travelling with their pet lightly. It is a when travelling by air, which was introduced in July serious business, as the hon. Gentleman said, and, 2008. although we have serious controls in place to mitigate The regulation requires European airlines to carry the risk, a strong burden of responsibility falls on pet guide dogs and other assistance dogs in the cabin of the owners. aircraft with their owner at no extra charge, subject to For many years, quarantine was this country’s main national rules, such as the UK pet travel scheme. That defence against rabies. All animals entering the UK had all sounds well and good. In the United Kingdom, to be isolated for six months in approved quarantine Birmingham, Bristol, Luton, Stansted, Doncaster, Glasgow, facilities. That ended when we introduced the pet travel London Gatwick, London Heathrow and Manchester scheme in 2000. It was designed to offer protection airports are all approved. However, that is not quite as against disease risks to animals and the public while good as it sounds, because I further understand that allowing people flexibility to travel with their pets. although Luton, Stansted and Bristol airports are approved, The pet travel scheme introduced a dual system: pets none of the airlines that have sought approval for their from high-risk countries still spend six months in quarantine, routes fly into them. but pets entering from some lower-risk countries including We seem to be stuck in a bit of an impasse, because European Union members and the United States, are, people who quite properly should be able to travel with in effect, allowed to serve their quarantine period in the their assistance dogs face a two-stage hurdle: they have country of origin. Such animals now enter with a to get clearance from the airport and the airline. Will passport that proves that they have been microchipped the Minister say whether he is making the airports and and vaccinated, that their blood has been tested to airlines feel the heat a little on this issue? Are they check that the vaccine has taken effect, and that they delaying in some way? Luton airport, which is close to have waited for six months. The six-month wait is to my constituency and serves a large number of my ensure that the animal had not already been infected constituents, has done the right thing. What pressure is with rabies. 303WH Pet Passports24 JUNE 2009 Pet Passports 304WH

There is a further requirement for owners to treat On the rights of disabled people, the hon. Gentleman their pets against ticks and tapeworm. The treatment raised a point about individuals taking dogs on to must be applied between 24 and 48 hours before travelling. aircraft. I was previously aviation Minister, but no The hon. Gentleman asked specifically about tapeworm. longer. On behalf of the Department for Transport, I UK tick and tapeworm controls are in place to minimise signed the protocol to which the hon. Gentleman referred, the risk of certain diseases entering the UK as animals which is relatively new and still working its way through. move under the pet travel scheme without spending I am sure that is one of the reasons why there is no time in quarantine. Tapeworm controls deal with comprehensive endorsement from airlines or airports—it Echinococcus multilocularis, which causes an extremely is still being developed, and some are still trying to unpleasant liver disease in humans. It usually proves comply. There is a European regulation that sets out fatal if not treated, and even with treatment leads to people’s rights in that respect. It requires European dangerous chronic illness. Tick treatments aim to deal airlines to carry assistance dogs—including guide dogs—in with a variety of ticks that have the potential to become the passenger cabin of the aircraft with their owner at established in the UK. no extra charge. That is subject to any national rules The hon. Gentleman realises the significance of that may apply, such as the pet travel scheme. tapeworms. He asked about timing of the treatment. It Under the approval scheme for carrying pets—including must be given 24 to 48 hours before travelling, not six assistance dogs—into the UK, airlines will enter into a months. The 24 to 48-hour window ensures that animals contract with our animal health agency to demonstrate excrete any tapeworm eggs before travelling to the UK, that they have the means and facilities to check those and that they have not had a chance to be re-infected in animals on arrival. DEFRA, the animal health agency the country of origin. and the Department for Transport continue to work The hon. Gentleman asked about discretion in the closely and meet with airlines, including no-frills operators, rules. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food to advise on that process. Ultimately, however, it is up to and Rural Affairs has no power to authorise exemptions the airlines to seek approval. from the requirements of the pet travel scheme. The As things stand, the derogation that enables the United rules are clearly set out in legislation, and, given what I Kingdom to retain our current pet movement controls said about the seriousness of rabies, I am sure that the comes to an end in June next year—although the European hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members would want Commission last week promised that the derogation the Government to maintain a robust approach to the could be extended until the end of 2011. As we consider controls. future controls, we are in close discussion with the As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, out of more than Commission and other member states about what a 500,000 pet journeys, there have been an extremely European system should be. We have to balance the small number of cases in which, outside the pet travel evidence of risk from rabies, tapeworm and tick-borne scheme, Ministers have decided to exempt animals from diseases, which affect everyone, against the burden on the standard quarantine requirements. That has only pet owners who wish to travel with their pets. happened when the owner was able to demonstrate the I accept that it is particularly difficult when the law, most extreme personal circumstances and needed to be which has safeguards written in for sound reasons, reunited with their animal. Even in those cases, certain throws up unusual and distressing cases. The Government restrictions on the handling and movement of the animal must continue to comply with European and national were rigorously enforced. If the hon. Gentleman will law as they stand, but as we consider the future of our forgive me, I will not give specific details of those cases, pet controls, we have an opportunity to think about but I can assure him and others that Ministers give all where more flexibility is possible. I will therefore carefully such matters the most serious consideration. consider the issue of flexibility in our discussions with The hon. Gentleman also raised the problem of illegal the European Commission and other member states on imports. No system is perfect, and there will always be future pet movements. people who try to break the law. The nature of that The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of his constituent, activity means that it is difficult to specify the number and has described how our controls may impose a of animals illegally imported. However, we enforce the burden on individuals in the name of protecting animals law, and I can inform him that we detected 196 illegal and the wider public. I sympathise and understand how landings in 2008. We factor illegal activity into our risk frustrating the situation must be. It is unfortunate that it assessments. We consider the implications for enforcement seems that mistakes, as he has outlined, by private of the scheme, and we have strong penalties in place for veterinary surgeons meant that on two separate occasions offenders. The existence of the pet travel scheme itself is the animal did not comply with the requirements of the an important incentive to comply; previously, all animals UK pet travel scheme. had to serve six months in quarantine. Let me explain why the pet was refused entry into the The hon. Gentleman asked whether there should be UK. The first time, as I understand it, the animal’s different rules for British animals. The rules of the pet microchip failed. If we cannot identify a dog at the travel scheme are designed to protect human health, border, we cannot be sure that it has been vaccinated native pets, and animals that travel with their owners. against rabies, blood-tested and treated for tick-borne Animals that comply and can demonstrate that they diseases and tapeworm, as I have described. The microchip have been effectively vaccinated, whether they are from is the key to the pet travel scheme and it is the most the UK or not, can travel freely between European cost-effective and reliable means of identification. member states and listed third countries, such as the On the second occasion, the blood sample that tested United States, Canada and Australia. Only those that whether the dog’s rabies vaccination had been effective cannot fully demonstrate that they meet the rules are was sent to the wrong laboratory in the United States. required to re-prepare for entry. Between 2 and 5 per cent. of rabies vaccinations do not 305WH Pet Passports24 JUNE 2009 Pet Passports 306WH

[Jim Fitzpatrick] regulation for business, to try to encourage best practice. That approach is always more successful than forcing work and a test is required to ensure that the vaccine people to do something. I know that officials in my has taken effect. The law states that the test must be: Department are meeting two of the low-cost airlines “carried out in an approved laboratory”. fairly soon and I am sure that they will raise the point That means a laboratory that has been accredited by the that he has asked us to raise with them. European Union. That gives us the assurance that we It is certainly in the interests of airlines to be able to can trust the work that is done at laboratories and the offer products that attract the majority of people to buy assurance that that work follows a standardised process. them. If one airline is offering a facility that other The hon. Gentleman said that there were 4,800 problems airlines are not, it gives them a competitive edge. The with animals in the last year for which we have figures. protocol that was signed within Europe for assisted That is true, but that is out of 115,000 animals, and the transport was to encourage best practice and standards problems mostly arose because of expired vaccinations. that everybody would aspire to. As the hon. Gentleman So we are talking about less than 5 per cent. of cases. has described, and as I mentioned, we have clearly Some might be small matters that do not require a great made a lot of progress in a relatively short period of deal of activity and can be dealt with quite quickly. In time, but we obviously want to ensure that the coverage the vast majority of cases, the scheme is clearly working is as comprehensive as possible. I hear what the hon. very effectively. Gentleman has said and I am sure that officials from my Department will be able to raise the issue with the Andrew Selous: I am most grateful to the Minister, airlines. If there is any information that comes from not least for the spirit in which he is replying to the their meeting with the airlines, I will be happy to write debate; what he has said has been genuinely helpful. to the hon. Gentleman to bring him up to speed. There is just one area that I want to press him on. I want To conclude, I again congratulate the hon. Member to take him back to the issue of assistance dogs. He said for South-West Bedfordshire on securing this interesting that it was up to the airlines to decide whether to take and timely debate. I also assure him that, although the them. He and I both know that some of the airlines Government’s priority will remain the protection of perhaps require some assistance themselves, shall we human and animal health, we will continue to implement say, to move along a little faster. Given that he is a past proportionate movement restrictions in compliance with aviation Minister, may I urge him to have a word with European Union law. The pet travel scheme is something some of his former colleagues in the Department for that we are very proud of. The numbers of people using Transport, so that they can have a friendly word in the the scheme demonstrate that it is very popular. More ear of some of the airlines about the issue? Let me take than 500,000 people in total have now used it. As I have the example of Luton airport again. The airport is said already, in the last year for which we have figures ready, but none of the airlines there are ready. That does 115,000 people used the scheme. It is growing all the not strike me as being quite good enough. time. We need to be vigilant, we need to ensure that pet owners are looked after, and we need to be as sympathetic Jim Fitzpatrick: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s and compassionate in this area as possible. frustration and I am sympathetic to the point that he Question put and agreed to. makes. Clearly, the challenge is having to regulate to force people to do things. I know that the Conservatives, 4.54 pm like the Government, want to have the lightest-touch Sitting adjourned. 57WS Written Ministerial Statements24 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 58WS

The vast majority of sports betting is legal and fair, Written Ministerial and enhances the enjoyment of sport for many fans. But betting also provides an opportunity and an incentive Statements for corrupting sport through the use of unfair or illegal betting practices. The Government are concerned that, although Wednesday 24 June 2009 considerable progress has been made in recent years by sports governing bodies, the betting industry and the Gambling Commission, the possible threat to the integrity of sport remains an ever present and complex problem requiring multi-agency solutions. If the UK is to maintain its reputation as a jurisdiction Report to Parliament on Civil Service where fair play is the guiding principle for both sport Delegations/Authorisations and betting, it is vital that the risks of corruption arising from all sources are reduced as far as possible. The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. Smith): The sports themselves: governing bodies, clubs and During 2007 delegations/authorisations were made to players; the betting industry; and enforcement authorities, the Ministry of Justice, the Welsh Assembly Government principally the Gambling Commission and the police, and the National School of Government and in 2008, all play important roles. To help co-ordinate the work of to the Government Equalities Office and the Department those parties, and to facilitate collaboration between for Communities and Local Government. them, the panel will bring together key people from the The delegations/authorisations were made subject to principal organisations involved, under the chairmanship the condition that recipients comply with the provisions of Rick Parry, to look at these issues and make of the civil service management code as amended from recommendations on how the various bodies concerned time to time. Copies of the civil service management can work together more effectively. code are available in the Library of the House and Within six months the panel will recommend to me a electronically at: http://beta.civilservice.gov.uk/about/ practical, effective and proportionate plan of action work/codes/csmc/index.aspx that has the support of those responsible for delivery. Any delegations/authorisations made in 2009 will be Mr. Parry is currently chief executive of Liverpool reported in spring 2010. football club and has many years’experience in professional sport at a senior level. I believe this experience makes him an ideal person to chair the panel and I look TREASURY forward to working with him. The members of the panel will include: Financial Services Authority Annual Report Nic Coward, Chief Executive, BHA Simon Barker, Director of the Professional Players Federation The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah and ex-pro footballer McCarthy-Fry): The annual report 2008-09 of the Financial Ian Seabridge, Asst Chief Constable, ACPO lead on Gambling Services Authority (FSA) has today been laid before Darren Bailey, Director of Governance, The FA Parliament. Copies have been deposited in the Libraries Mark Davies, Managing Director, Betfair of both Houses. Chris Caisley, Partner, Walker Morris Lawyers—Head of Sports The report forms a key part of the accountability Law Group mechanism for the Financial Services Authority under Dave Boyle, Chief Executive, Supporters Direct the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (FSMA), and assesses the performance of the Financial Services Nick Tofiluk, Director of Regulation, Gambling Commission Authority over the past 12 months against its statutory Ben Gunn CBE QPM, Sporting Integrity Expert objectives. Mike Smith, Chairman, Tote Mike O’Kane, Trading Director, Ladbrokes Bill South, Director of Security, William Hill CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT

Sports Betting Integrity Panel DEFENCE The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr. ): The Government Afghanistan Air Support are determined to ensure that everything possible is done to maintain the integrity and reputation of sport. I am therefore delighted to announce that I am bringing The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Bill Rammell): together a new sports betting integrity panel under the The statement by my predecessor, the right hon. Member chairmanship of Rick Parry. This panel will include for Coventry North East () on 25 February representatives of the betting industry; sports governing 2009, Official Report, columns 24-25WS, referred to a bodies; players; the Gambling Commission and the delay from spring until summer 2009 of the deployment police. The panel’s main focus will be the design and of Tornado GR4 aircraft to replace a broadly similar implementation of an integrated strategy to uphold force of Harrier GR9 aircraft at Kandahar airfield, integrity in sports and associated betting. Afghanistan. 59WS Written Ministerial Statements24 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 60WS

I can confirm that necessary supporting infrastructure leaving Headley Court if there were an assured level of at Kandahar is now in place and all Tornado GR4 future care that surpassed even that which is offered by urgent operational requirement enhancements have been DMRC’s current and planned capabilities. delivered. Consequently Tornado GR4 aircraft deployed While this work is long term, an immediate issue is to Kandahar in mid-June and, after a period of joint attending to the convalescence and recovery of service operations with the Harrier force, today the Tornado people, not least those who have been treated at the GR4 force has taken over sole responsibility for RAF Royal Centre for Defence Medicine and have subsequently fast jet support in Afghanistan. undergone rehabilitation at Headley Court. To that The transition from Harrier to Tornado in theatre end, a defence-led study is under way to consider how has been seamless. During the handover the Tornado to make the best possible provision in this area, starting force has proved that it is fully capable of fulfilling all with a pathfinder centre near Edinburgh, in conjunction the roles required of it in support of coalition ground with the charities Erskine Homes and Help for Heroes. forces. Those forces will continue to benefit from the The pathfinder will enable us to learn lessons, which flexibility and broad range of capabilities offered by will help inform our judgment about how best to provide UK fast jet aircraft. convalescent care in the future and help prepare wounded, The remaining elements of the Harrier force are injured and sick personnel to return to duty or transition preparing to leave Kandahar shortly, with the final to civilian life. Harrier personnel planning to return to their home base at RAF Cottesmore in early July. Joint Force Harrier People Pay and Pensions Agency has made a significant and acclaimed contribution to coalition air operations during its four and a half years The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence service in Afghanistan and the personnel within this (Mr. ): The key targets that I have set the force can be proud of all their many achievements in chief executive of the People, Pay and Pensions Agency this operational theatre. are as follows: Delivering Results Defence and National Rehabilitation Centre Feasibility Individual performance targets have been agreed between Study the agency and the MOD as its principal customer reflecting both business requirements and the need to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence continue to drive down costs through efficiency improvements. (Mr. Kevan Jones): I am pleased to announce that a KeyTarget1—Achieve agreed unit cost targets for salary payments; expenses payments; pension awards; internal posting; feasibility study will be undertaken to look at the possibility external recruitment; manpower substitution; promotion of establishing a Defence and National Rehabilitation assessments; subject access request; and the working patterns Centre in around 10 years’ time, looking at how the and leavers service. These targets reflect financial savings which whole issue of rehabilitation should be developed in are expected to arise from efficiency gains. 21st century terms. The study will build on the remarkable KeyTarget2—Achieve key performance indicators for timeliness achievements of the Defence Medical Rehabilitation and accuracy set in the agency’s service level agreement. The Centre (DMRC) at Headley Court in Surrey, and exploit indicators cover salary payments, pensions and HR transactions what we and others have learnt in recent times about and advice. complex injury. It will look at doing so in the context of KeyTarget3—Achieve key performance indicators for access creating a national centre for civilian as well as military to the agency’s services. The detailed indicators cover availability and speed of responses of both its call centres and its major rehabilitation. We shall also look at the inclusion of online electronic service. rehabilitation research, the potential for developing further Reputation our world-class para-Olympic athletes and a “train the KeyTarget4—Achieve customer satisfaction targets set in the trainer” capability for rehabilitation in conflict and agency’s service level agreement: 78 per cent. satisfaction index post-conflict afflicted states. We shall be considering for pay, pensions and expenses services; 64 per cent. satisfaction potential sites in the midlands with close links to the index for HR services; 85 per cent. for sampled users satisfied Royal Centre for Defence Medicine, and estimate that or better. the study will take about a year to complete. How We Work The feasibility study will consult widely across KeyTarget5—Achieve second phase of HR service maturity Government, the NHS and the charitable sector. The programme by March 2010. In conjunction with customers, a trades unions will also be consulted fully. An external small number of specific projects have been agreed for reviewing benefactor has agreed to sponsor this feasibility work. and improving HR services and procedures which have high This continues a long and distinguished tradition of business priority. charitable involvement in the care of injured service Reputation personnel, including in this context the work of the KeyTarget6—Maintain and extend customer service excellence Headley Court Trust, Help for Heroes, SSAFA, BLESMA and other external accreditations by March 2010. and Brain Injury and Rehabilitation Trust (BIRT), to name only a few. I stress that this work will scope ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE possible options for creating a Defence and National Centre with the defence capability at its core—there are Offshore Energy Strategic Environmental Assessment no foregone conclusions. The Government are committed to delivering state- The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy of-the-art treatment for our injured service personnel. and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): My noble They deserve nothing but the best. The MOD continues Friend the Minister of State for Energy and Climate to invest in DMRC at Headley Court to ensure its Change, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath today made the provision of world-class care. We would only envisage following statement: 61WS Written Ministerial Statements24 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 62WS

I am today announcing the outcome of the Offshore Energy the post-consultation report. These spatial restrictions are issue Strategic Environmental Assessment (SEA), and I am publishing and criteria-based, including for example military practice and a policy document, “A Prevailing Wind: Advancing UK Offshore exercise areas, airspace danger areas and International Maritime Wind Deployment”, that explains in more detail the Government’s Organisation routes. As these boundaries and locations may decision on the offshore wind element of the draft plan/programme. change over time, the maps contained in the environmental report The policy document draws together the key ongoing and planned are indicative. work to enable large-scale deployment of offshore wind, as well As the offshore wind policy document “A Prevailing Wind” as setting out the next steps. A copy of this document will be published today makes clear, the Government, and DECC in placed in the Libraries of both Houses. particular, will have a continuing role to play in facilitating policy In 2006, DECC initiated a Strategic Environmental Assessment interventions necessary to help deliver the offshore wind element (SEA) on a draft plan/programme to hold further rounds of of our plan/programme. DECC, with the Crown Estate, has a offshore oil and gas licensing, including licensing of gas storage in cross-departmental Offshore Wind Delivery Board to develop hydrocarbon reservoirs, and some 25 GW of additional offshore and oversee this work. wind leasing in United Kingdom waters. The SEA is documented For oil and gas, DECC will now proceed with preparations for on a dedicated website (www.offshore-sea.org.uk) and includes a a further round—the 26th—of offshore licensing. This is expected range of field surveys, technical studies and syntheses of data to be launched early next year—a further announcement will be commissioned to underpin the SEA assessment. For offshore made on the timing of the round. (seaward) oil and gas licensing and for offshore gas storage For offshore gas storage, DECC will be the licensing authority licensing the SEA covered all UK waters. For offshore wind and the Crown Estate will be the leasing authority, working in leasing, the SEA covered those parts of the UK renewable energy parallel with each other. DECC is currently considering the zone and the territorial waters of England and Wales where the responses to the recent “Consultation on the proposed offshore water depth is around 60 metres or less. The Scottish Executive gas storage and unloading licensing scheme”. DECC will issue and Northern Ireland Executive are the competent authorities for the Government response in due course, indicating how the conducting Strategic Environmental Assessments (SEAs) within licensing scheme is to go forward. their territorial waters. Both of these authorities are currently undertaking SEAs for the purposes of enabling offshore wind leasing in these areas. HEALTH An expert assessment workshop was held to consider the key issues to be addressed in assessing the draft plan/programme. In addition, three sector-specific workshops and three wider stakeholder Cervical Screening workshops were also held to gather industry perspectives and stakeholder input on relevant issues. The results of these workshops were assessed further and documented in an environmental report The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health which then formed the basis for statutory, public and international (Ann Keen): I announced in my written ministerial consultation. In January 2009, the three-month consultation period statement on l3 March 2009, Official Report, column 36WS, on DECC’s draft plan/programme and environmental report commenced and was advertised in a number of local and national that we had asked the independent Advisory Committee newspapers and by e-mail notification to a wide range of individuals on Cervical Screening (ACCS) to formally review the and organisations. evidence relating to risks and benefits of cervical screening All responses received from consultees on the draft plan/programme in women under 25 years, including current evidence and the environmental report have been considered by DECC regarding incidence and mortality in young women. and a post-consultation report for the offshore energy SEA has The review took place at an extraordinary meeting of been prepared and placed on the SEA website today.This summarises the ACCS held on 19 May 2009. The ACCS is an consultee comments and DECC responses to them, and presents a final list of recommendations, some of which have been revised independent ministerially appointed committee, with following feedback from consultees. The full texts of consultee most members nominated by their respective professional comments have also been placed on the SEA website. bodies. A number of guests were also invited to the DECC has now fully considered the conclusions and review meeting to ensure all opinions and available recommendations of the offshore energy SEA environmental evidence were heard, including the voluntary sector report together with feedback received from consultees. In the and patients. light of the final recommendations set out in the post-consultation report, the Department concludes that there are no overriding No new scientific evidence was presented to the review environmental considerations to prevent the achievement of our meeting to support the reintroduction of screening in draft plan/programme of leasing for offshore wind, and licensing women under 25. Indeed some new evidence was presented of oil and gas production, and gas storage, if mitigation measures indicating that screening is of little or no benefit in are implemented to prevent, reduce and offset significant adverse women in this age group. There is evidence that treatment effects. following screening in this age group can lead to an In all cases, the relevant competent authority will undertake increased risk of subsequent premature births, increasing any appropriate assessment(s) prior to awarding licences or leases the risk of babies dying or having severe disabilities. under the rounds, if required following screening. This is required Evidence was also presented that showed there has been under EU Council Directive 79/409 EEC on “the conservation of no significant increase in the number of women aged wild birds” and Council Directive 92/43/EEC on “the conservation under 25 contracting or dying from cervical cancer of natural habitats and wild fauna and flora”, and UK implementing regulations. since the policy change in 2004. Monitoring the potentially significant environmental effects Members of the committee were unanimous that identified within the SEA will be undertaken using existing mechanisms there was no reason to lower the age at which screening and those to be set up under the auspices of the Infrastructure commences, which is in line with international Planning Commission (IPC) and Marine Management Organisation recommendations (MMO). Members of the committee were, however, concerned For offshore wind, the Crown Estate is the leasing authority and can now proceed with offshore wind leasing competition(s). that young women who present to their general practitioners Within UK waters, the Government have decided that there with gynaecological symptoms are not always being should be spatial restrictions on offshore wind development in given appropriate advice. They strongly recommended specific geographic areas as indicated in the recommendations of that the Department of Health should take further 63WS Written Ministerial Statements24 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 64WS action in this area, and the ACCS will be considering JUSTICE how best to take this forward as a matter of urgency at their meeting on 25 June 2009. Members also recommended Sentencing Guidelines Council Annual Report that more effort is made in increasing the uptake of cervical screening in women aged 25 to 34, where coverage has been falling in recent years. We will develop plans The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor with NHS Cancer Screening Programmes and the National (Mr. ): I have today laid before Parliament Awareness and Early Diagnosis Initiative to take this the annual report of the Sentencing Guidelines Council. forward. The Sentencing Guidelines Council has published its The committee will keep the decision closely under annual report, jointly with the Sentencing Advisory review, especially by monitoring the incidence of cervical Panel, giving details of the excellent work it has achieved cancer in young women. In the interests of transparency, during the past year and outlining its ongoing work the minutes of the review meeting have been placed in plans in 2009. the Library and are available at: www.dh.gov.uk/en/ Healthcare/Cancer/index.htm NORTHERN IRELAND I would like to thank Jo’s Trust for their contribution to the review, and pay tribute to the family of Claire Walker for continuing to raise the awareness of cervical Consultative Group on the Past cancer. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. ): I have today published a consultation Employment Strategy (Learning Disabilities) paper on the recommendations of the Consultative Group on the Past. Dealing with the legacy of the events of the last forty years remains one of the greatest The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil challenges still facing Northern Ireland. The Consultative Hope): The Under-Secretary of State for Work and Group on the Past was established in 2007 and asked Pensions, the Minister with responsibility for disabled to make recommendations about steps that might be people, my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and taken to support Northern Ireland society in building Aylesford (Jonathan Shaw) and I, are today publishing a shared future that is not overshadowed by the events a new strategy—“Valuing Employment Now: Real jobs of the past. for people with learning disabilities”. When the report was published, one recommendation— The Government are committed to supporting more that £12,000 recognition payments should be made to people with learning disabilities into jobs. “Valuing the relatives of all those who died as a result of the People Now, a new three-year strategy for people with troubles—dominated all discussion of the report, and learning disabilities” published on 19 January 2009, overshadowed all the other 30 recommendations. emphasised that people with learning disabilities are I have already confirmed that the Government do not entitled to the same aspirations and life chances as propose to take this recommendation forward. However, other people including the opportunity to work. I am concerned that there has not yet been a thorough debate about the other recommendations in the report. This cross-Government strategy sets out an ambitious That is why the consultation paper I am publishing goal to increase radically the number of people with today invites everyone to study all of the recommendations learning disabilities in employment by 2025. The carefully and share with the Government their views on Government want as many of these jobs to be at least each of them. 16 hours per week. We aspire to close the gap between the employment rate of adults with moderate and severe In particular, I am calling on the political leaders in learning disabilities and that of the disabled population Northern Ireland to engage fully in a study of the as whole, currently estimated at 48 per cent. proposals. The way forward cannot be imposed on Northern Ireland; it must be based on emerging and The strategy includes action to raise expectations wide-ranging consensus. Achieving that consensus will throughout the system that all people with learning not be easy but I believe that if the recommendations disabilities can and should have the chance to work: are studied carefully there will be those that will have from birth and early years through education, among widespread support. health and social care staff, local authorities, employment The consultation period will run until 2 October agencies, employers, and people with learning disabilities 2009. Whatever the outcome of the consultation may be themselves and their families. The strategy is supported the Government will continue to support Northern by a detailed delivery plan. Ireland on the path to reconciliation. The strategy and delivery plan have been placed in I have arranged for copies of the consultation paper the Library and copies are available to hon. Members to be placed in the Libraries of the both Houses of from the Vote Office. Parliament. 881W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 882W

inward and outward advocacy, mobilising support and Written Answers to helping change attitudes and behaviour of members on issues such as HIV/AIDS, reproductive health and the Questions role of women. Refugee Camps: Algeria Wednesday 24 June 2009 Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what aid his Department provides to people from western Sahara in refugee INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT camps in Algeria. [281801] Internally Displaced Persons: Sri Lanka Mr. Thomas: The Department for International Development (DFID) supports Sahrawi refugees through 11. Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for its share of the budget of the European Community International Development what his most recent Humanitarian Aid Office (ECHO) and its £19 million assessment is of the humanitarian situation in camps contributions to the UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR), for internally displaced persons in Sri Lanka; and if he for its work with refugees across the world. In 2008, will make a statement. [281802] ECHO committed to provide ¤10 million to support Sahrawi refugees, while UNHCR spent $3.1 million in Mr. Michael Foster: The formal military conflict between their support. the Government of Sri Lanka and LTTE has now Africa: Overseas Aid ended. The entire humanitarian caseload of 280,000 IDPs are now in camps under the control of the GoSL. The humanitarian response is moving from an emergency Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for International to a maintenance phase and basic living conditions are Development what plans he has to discuss with his G8 slowly improving. However, the lack of activity permitted counterparts their plans to meet their commitments on such as freedom of movement remains of concern. (a) assistance to Africa, made at the Tokyo G8 summit Early return of the IDPs to their homes is vital. in July 2008 and (b) reducing the spread of infectious diseases. [281225] Palestinian West Bank Mr. Thomas: I discussed these and other matters with my G8 development Minister counterparts in Rome on 12. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for 11-12 June 2009. This meeting reaffirmed G8 commitments International Development what his latest assessment on Official Development Assistance (ODA) and is of the effectiveness of his Department’s projects to international assistance confirmed at the G8 summit support economic development in the Palestinian West last year in Japan. The G8, under the presidency of Bank. [281803] Italy, is continuing its focus on Africa. Global health, including reducing the spread of infectious diseases, Mr. Michael Foster: In 2008, the Department for also remains a priority concern. International Development (DFID) funded two conferences aimed at encouraging investment in Palestine. UK Trade With less than three weeks until the G8 summit in and Investment (UKTI) is now working with various July, discussions on the G8 development agenda, including stakeholders on conference follow-up and will be supporting meeting our commitments, are frequent and ongoing a scoping mission to the West Bank in October. and taking place at ministerial and official level. They will be further discussed during the G8 Sherpa preparatory In partnership with the World Bank, we are also meetings scheduled for next week. The UK Government supporting the Palestinian private sector through the remain determined to meet their commitments to Africa Facility for New Market Development (FNMD), which and to fighting infectious diseases such as malaria, is currently helping 138 companies (115 in the West tuberculosis and polio and working towards the goal of Bank) to develop new products and/or enter new markets. universal access to HIV/AIDS prevention and treatment. FNMD clients have already developed four new products We are pressing our G8 colleagues to do likewise. and entered 13 new international markets. Rural Areas Faith Organisations Mr. Leigh: To ask the Secretary of State for International 13. Mr. : To ask the Secretary of State for Development how many days on average his Department’s International Development what recent assessment he professional staff worked in rural areas in the last has made of the contribution of faith organisations to 12 months period for which information is available. his Department’s work with civil society in developing [281792] countries. [281804] Mr. Thomas: The Department for International Mr. Michael Foster: During 2007-8, the Department Development (DFID) has around 277 professional advisers for International Development channelled over £21 million posted in developing countries. The majority of our through faith organisations to support their development overseas staff are deliberately based in capitals, to facilitate efforts. our discussions with host governments, donors, and Faith organisations play a direct and vital role tackling non-governmental organisations, including agricultural poverty in poor countries, providing essential services and rural sector reform. Staff regularly travel to rural and humanitarian assistance. They are able to undertake areas, but we do not collate information on such visits. 883W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 884W

Sudan: Overseas Aid 1 A ‘level 2’ fine does not specify a minimum fine amount, only the statutory maximum for the given offence; therefore all fines in the Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for International above table could be classed as ‘level 2’ fines. There are a number of Development what development assistance his Department factors including the defendants’ ability to pay that will affect the courts’ decision to impose a fine and fine amounts should not solely is providing to (a) the government of national unity in be taken as an indication of the seriousness of the offence or offender. Sudan and (b) the government of Southern Sudan. 2 These data are on the principal offence basis. [281200] 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have Mr. Thomas: The UK Government do not transfer been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by funds directly to the Government of National Unity the courts, and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken (GNU) or the Government of South Sudan (GoSS). to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are Most UK aid to Sudan is channelled through UN and taken into account when those data are used. 4 Includes the following statutes and corresponding offence descriptions: World Bank managed multi-donor pooled funds, such Police Reform Act 2002 Sch.4 Para.5 (Criminal Justice & Police Act as the Multi-Donor Trust Funds (MDTFs) in support 2001 S.12). Criminal Justice & Police Act 2001 S12. of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement, to which we Contravene a community support officers’ requirement not to consume have contributed £74.6 million since 2005 and through liquor. non-governmental organisations (NGOs). Penalty offence under S.1 Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001—alcohol consumption in designated public places. 5 Following quality assurance checks, one fine amount in 2003 has been removed. This amount was greater than the maximum permissible HOME DEPARTMENT fine. Therefore the number of fines and the fine amount totals in 2003 will not match each other. Antisocial Behaviour Source: OCJR—E & A: Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the Analysis Unit Home Department what recent assessment he has made DNA: Databases of the effectiveness of family intervention tenancies in tackling anti-social behaviour. [281839] Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. : I have been asked to reply. Home Department with reference to the answer of No assessment has been carried out. 10 July 2008, Official Report, columns 1767-8W, on Crime genetics: databases, what proportion of DNA records of people (a) arrested but not charged for an offence, Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the (b) arrested, charged but not convicted of an offence Home Department pursuant to the answer of 16 June and (c) arrested, charged and convicted of an offence 2009, Official Report, column 185W, on crime, how have resulted in matches with crime scene profiles. many incidents of street drinking were recorded in each [270929] police force area in 2007-08. [281837] Mr. Alan Campbell: As the National DNA Database : The Home Office does not centrally does not hold data on whether those with records on it collect data on incidents of street drinking. You may have been charged or convicted, the information requested wish to view the data on consumption within a Designated is not available. Public Place Order (DPPO) which is provided in the table. Entry Clearances Within a DPPO area it is not an offence to consume alcohol. The offence is committed when a person, without Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the reasonable excuse, fails to comply with a requirement of Home Department how many visa applications from a police constable to refrain from consuming alcohol (a) Pakistan and (b) Afghanistan have been rejected (Section 12 (4) of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001). by the Abu Dhabi hub after being forwarded for The number of PNDs issued for failure to comply clearance by the entry clearance officers in Islamabad with a requirement by a constable within a Designated (i) in each of the last five years and (ii) since 27 October Public Place Order are as follows: 2008. [280128] 485 in 2004, 712 in 2005, 1,061 in 2006 and 1,544 in 2007. Data for 2008 will be available in autumn 2009. Alan Johnson: No visa applications were forwarded by entry clearance officers in Islamabad to the visa Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates courts, found guilty, and issued with a level 2 fine1 at all courts for offences relating section in Abu Dhabi for assessment before 27 October to the Police Reform Act 2002 Sch.4 Para.5 (Criminal Justice and 2008. Between 27 October 2008 and 31 May 2009, Police Act 2001 S.12). Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 in 18,036 of the applications that have been forwarded England and Wales, 2003-072,3,4 from Pakistan have been refused. These include applications Fine amount5 from both Pakistani and Afghan nationals. Fines These figures do not constitute part of National over Statistics as they are based on internal management £200 information. The information has not been quality Proceeded Found Total Fines up and up against guilty fines to £200 to £500 assured under National Statistics protocols, should be treated as provisional and is subject to change. 2003 108 94 73 72 — 2004 122 96 78 78 — Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2005 101 76 63 62 1 Home Department what training is provided to (a) 2006 101 73 59 59 — British and (b) locally engaged entry clearance officers 2007 113 98 76 75 1 in Pakistan and Abu Dhabi. [280132] 885W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 886W

Alan Johnson: All entry clearance officers recruited Alan Johnson: The number of visa applications for for long-term postings undertake a mandatory three entry to the UK that have been lodged in Pakistan since week training course from the central training team in 1 January 2004 are as follows: the UK. In addition to the central training, newly recruited officers in both Pakistan and Abu Dhabi Visa applications lodged in Pakistan receive additional training and mentoring over a minimum 2004 188,855 three month basis from experienced officers and managers 2005 168,019 already at post. Locally engaged entry clearance officers 2006 204,049 remain on probation for this three month period. At the 2007 175,966 end of the three month period, officers are assessed 2008 (1 January to 26 October) 132,855 against objective performance benchmarks to inform 27 October 2008 to 31 May 2009 66,415 their future training and development needs. Entry Clearances: Afghanistan These figures do not constitute part of National Statistics as they are based on internal management information. The information has not been quality Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the assured under National Statistics protocols, should be Home Department how many visa applications for treated as provisional and is subject to change. entry into the UK have been made in Afghanistan (a) in each of the last five years and (b) since 27 October Entry Clearances: United Arab Emirates 2008. [280139] Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Alan Johnson: There is no visa application centre in Home Department how many entry clearance officers Afghanistan, nor has there been one in the past five based in Abu Dhabi are (a) locally engaged and (b) years. British nationals. [280131] Entry Clearances: Pakistan Alan Johnson: As of 31 May 2009, there are 34 entry Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the clearance officers based in Abu Dhabi, including seasonal Home Department how many visa applications have relief staff. There are 11 permanent UK-based entry been checked for fraud by entry clearance officers in clearance officers and 10 locally engaged entry clearance Islamabad (a) in each of the last five years and (b) officers. since 27 October 2008. [280129] Firearms: Crime Alan Johnson: All visa applications have been checked for fraud in the last five years. Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 21 April Prior to 27 October 2008, Entry Clearance Officers in 2009, Official Report, column 593W, on firearms: Pakistan conducted passport forgery checks in all cases crime, how many firearms offences (excluding those that had been approved for issue and document verification involving air weapons) were recorded in each police teams augmented this by checking supporting documents. force area in England and Wales in each year since Since 27 October 2008 the passport forgery check has 1998. [281881] been extended to all applications and supporting document verification takes place in over 80 per cent. of applications. Alan Johnson: Available data relate to offences recorded in the period 1998-99 up to and including 2007-08, and Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the are shown in the following table. Data for the period Home Department how many entry clearance officers 2003-04 to 2007-08 by police force area were published based in Islamabad are (a) locally engaged and (b) in table 2.12 of “Homicides, Firearm Offences and British nationals. [280130] Intimate Violence 2007-08”, an internet-only Home Office Statistical Bulletin available at: Alan Johnson: As of 31 May 2009 there are 13 UK-based entry clearance officers working in Islamabad, all of http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb0209.pdf whom are British nationals. None are locally engaged. Firearms are taken to be involved in a crime if they are fired, used as a blunt instrument against a person, Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the or used as a threat. Home Department how many visa applications for The National Crime Recording Standard was introduced entry into the UK have been made in Pakistan in (a) on 1 April 2002. Data for the years up to and including each of the last five years and (b) since 27 October 2001-02 are not directly comparable with those for later 2008. [280137] years.

Crimes recorded by the police in which firearms (including air weapons) were reported to have been used1 by region and police force area: England and Wales, 1998-99 to 2007-08 Recorded crime Number of offences 1999- Police force area 1998-992 2000 2000-01 2001-023 2002-034 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

North East Region Cleveland 20 26 16 24 18 45 37 41 19 15 Durham 13 40 18 19 16 15 21 18 14 45 887W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 888W

Crimes recorded by the police in which firearms (including air weapons) were reported to have been used1 by region and police force area: England and Wales, 1998-99 to 2007-08 Recorded crime Number of offences 1999- Police force area 1998-992 2000 2000-01 2001-023 2002-034 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Northumbria 76 107 99 86 103 169 182 137 111 78

North West Region Cheshire 32 22 44 50 31 44 61 71 41 59 Cumbria 11 5 13 9 13 11 26 18 21 18 Greater Manchester 647 875 935 1,361 1,240 1,275 1,268 1,200 993 1,160 Lancashire 50 78 59 103 66 58 259 372 364 349 286 240 278 299 318 483 491 485 410 398

Yorkshire and the Humber Region Humberside 76 61 69 63 68 68 174 108 117 58 NorthYorkshire118 928182313151417 South Yorkshire 75 114 129 170 153 127 185 301 211 202 West Yorkshire 193 191 335 332 333 269 318 355 319 332

East Midlands Region Derbyshire 52 65 72 58 73 75 149 109 83 70 Leicestershire 98 71 58 74 174 141 123 89 109 134 Lincolnshire 16 19 24 22 37 26 90 72 45 41 Northamptonshire 54 48 40 55 107 123 113 128 159 164 Nottinghamshire 112 173 157 204 264 233 303 277 196 240

West Midlands Region Staffordshire 23 53 108 116 131 108 144 128 94 123 Warwickshire 20 14 39 53 62 102 73 80 90 107 West Mercia 38 36 41 54 48 62 151 115 58 124 West Midlands 407 664 817 1,288 1,101 1,138 959 946 979 974

East of England Region Bedfordshire 46 56 48 82 86 89 94 103 86 83 Cambridgeshire 35 43 31 49 57 34 50 34 24 30 Essex 47 61 77 98 148 145 193 280 255 260 Hertfordshire 30 36 36 69 139 138 139 114 89 112 Norfolk 34 24 20 26 36 33 23 29 34 43 Suffolk 15 18 22 15 28 45 59 58 42 38

London Region5 2,034 2,945 3,036 4,199 4,202 3,891 3,697 3,884 3,331 3,399

South East Region Hampshire 38 52 49 58 97 130 148 85 122 100 Kent 76 109 108 60 64 65 100 142 92 82 Surrey 35425240348863876070 Sussex 115 119 110 155 136 82 67 85 84 69 Thames Valley 96 107 198 267 362 421 437 401 332 322

South West Region Avon and Somerset 71 103 100 131 119 123 196 167 138 116 Devon and 75 81 64 52 36 84 189 174 132 111 Dorset 11121434174549272821 Gloucestershire 22 21 23 89 92 108 87 77 65 43 Wiltshire 19 10 13 26 60 53 49 43 69 49

Wales Dyfed-Powys 16 13 26 26 17 37 40 21 17 25 Gwent 26 19 11 18 52 74 85 53 33 47 NorthWales 26106 6181160889853 South Wales 31 52 67 56 74 47 104 71 67 84 889W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 890W

Crimes recorded by the police in which firearms (including air weapons) were reported to have been used1 by region and police force area: England and Wales, 1998-99 to 2007-08 Recorded crime Number of offences 1999- Police force area 1998-992 2000 2000-01 2001-023 2002-034 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

England and Wales 5,209 6,843 7,471 10,024 10,248 10,338 11,069 11,088 9,645 9,865

England and Wales 3,175 3,898 4,435 5,825 6,046 6,447 7,372 7,204 6,314 6,466 (excluding London region) 1 Firearms are taken to be involved in a crime if they are fired, used as a blunt instrument against a person or used as a threat. 2 There was a change in the counting rules for recorded crime on 1 April 1998. 3 Figures for some crime categories may have been inflated by some police forces implementing the principles of the National Crime Recording Standard before 1 April 2002. 4 The National Crime Recording Standard was introduced on 1 April 2002, which may have resulted in inflated figures for some crime categories. Figures before and after this date are not directly comparable. 5 City of London and force areas.

Human Trafficking Arrests Convictions

Mr. Vara: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Northamptonshire 11 0 Department with reference to the answer of 29 October Northumbria 7 1 2008, Official Report, columns 1087-88W, on human North Wales 3 0 trafficking, how many (a) arrests and (b) convictions North Yorkshire 8 0 there were for human trafficking offences in each police Nottinghamshire 17 0 force area in England and Wales in each of the last five South Wales 20 6 South Yorkshire 22 10 years. [277243] Staffordshire 4 0 Suffolk 9 0 Mr. Alan Campbell: It is not possible to break down Surrey 8 3 the arrest and convictions for each of the last five years. Sussex 27 0 Figures from the UKHTC indicate that since the Thames Valley 9 4 inception of the dedicated legislation, there have been a Warwickshire 5 5 total of 568 arrests for human trafficking offences West Mercia 9 3 which have resulted in a total of 114 convictions. The West Midlands 44 5 figures for the number of arrests which are set out by West Yorkshire 14 5 force area below include 100 cases on which the outcome Wiltshire 6 0 is not yet known. BTP 4 0

Arrests Convictions

Avon and Somerset 0 0 Human Trafficking: Prosecutions Bedfordshire 7 1 Cambridgeshire 23 0 Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Cheshire 2 1 Home Department how many people have been Cleveland 3 0 prosecuted for human trafficking offences relating to Cumbria 1 0 labour exploitation under the Asylum and Immigration Derbyshire 11 0 (Treatment of Claimants EEC) Act 2004. [276566] Devon and Cornwall 8 3 Dorset 3 1 Durham 1 1 Mr. Alan Campbell: Figures provided by the UK Dyfed-Powys 2 0 Human Trafficking Centre indicate as of 24 May there Essex 11 0 have been 16 prosecutions and seven convictions for Gloucestershire 7 0 trafficking for the purposes of forced labour. Greater Manchester 63 8 Gwent 2 0 Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Hampshire 14 1 Home Department how many people have been Hertfordshire 6 0 prosecuted for human trafficking offences relating to Humberside 1 0 sexual exploitation under the Sexual Offences Act Kent 7 4 2003. [276567] Lancashire 18 6 Leicestershire 15 3 Mr. Alan Campbell: Figures from the Crown Prosecution Lincolnshire 2 0 Service indicate a total of 267 people prosecuted under Metropolitan 129 43 sections 57-59 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. City of London 0 0 Merseyside 0 0 In this total there have been 106 convictions plus Norfolk 5 0 three for conspiracy to traffick which have arisen from sexual exploitation cases. 891W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 892W

Parenting Contracts Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers and officials meet representatives of the British Bankers’ Association Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the to discuss a wide range of issues as need arises and Home Department how many parenting contracts have receive written representations on a wide variety of been issued under section 19 and 25 of the Anti-Social issues. It is not the Government’s practice to provide Behaviour Act 2003 in each local authority area in each details of all such meetings or receive correspondence. of the last five years. [280261] Capital Gains Tax Mr. Coaker: I have been asked to reply. The Department collects and publishes data on the Lynne Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer use by local authorities in England of education-related what estimate he has made of the revenue forgone by parenting contracts for poor behaviour and attendance the Exchequer as a result of alterations to the at school. Data is collected directly from local authorities. designation of an individual’s main home to avoid Since data collection began in September 2004 to 31 August payment of capital gains tax in the last tax year for 2008, 55,107 parenting contracts for attendance have which figures are available; and if he will make a been issued to parents and 7,752 contracts have been statement. [281821] issued for behaviour. Information on the number of parenting contracts issued to parents in each local Mr. Timms: It is not possible to provide an estimate authority can be found at: with the information available. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/behaviourandattendance/about/ data.cfm Child Benefit Data in relation to parenting contracts issued to parents following their child’s criminal conduct or antisocial Mr. Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer behaviour is collected and published by the Home Office how much was spent on child benefit in 2008-09; what for the voluntary Crime and Disorder Reduction proportion of that was paid to families with gross Partnership Survey. It can be found at: incomes of over (a) £25,000, (b) £40,000, (c) £60,000 http://www.crimereduction.homeoffice.gov.uk/asbos/ and (d) £100,000 per year; and if he will make a asbos02b.xls statement. [281648] Data is available by region only. Police: Essex Mr. Timms: The cost of child benefit in 2008-09 was £11,265 million. Mr. Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Estimates of the proportion of expenditure allocated Home Department what discussions he has had with to families with gross incomes of over (a) £25,000, (b) the Chief Constable of Essex Police since January 2008 £40,000 and (c) £60,000 per year are provided in the on mechanisms to ensure that information held by following table. them is (a) accurate and (b) secure; and if he will Proportion of 2008-09 Child Benefit expenditure by income bands make a statement. [275586] Percentage

Mr. Hanson: These issues are a matter for the police Families with gross incomes over: authority in Essex, however individual chief police officers (a) £25,000 per year 55 are responsible for the data held, managed and used by (b) £40,000 per year 34 their respective forces. All chief officers in England and (c) £60,000 per year 16 Wales are required to have regard for the statutory code Note: of practice for the Management of Police Information, The numbers in this table are not mutually exclusive introduced in 2005, which requires forces to adopt The Family Resources Survey, on which these estimates practices for the management of information that ensure are based, provides unreliable estimates for households such information is used effectively for police purposes with high incomes. An accurate estimate for (d) could and in compliance with the law. therefore be provided only at disproportionate cost. In addition, the Association of Chief Police Officers has a community security policy (CSP) which all forces Corporation Tax: Business are required to be compliant with by March 2010. This policy covers a set of wide ranging controls to ensure Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer data is kept secure. Reporting on compliance with the what estimate he has made of the cost to the Exchequer CSP is managed through the Police Information Assurance of a reduction of one per cent. in the rate of corporation Board (PIAB) and supported by the National Policing tax for (a) small and (b) large firms in the present tax Improvement Agency. year. [281903]

Mr. Timms: I refer the hon. Member to Table 5 of the TREASURY 2008 pre-Budget report: Tax ready reckoner and reliefs, Banks: Regulation which provides estimates of the effects of illustrative tax changes, and is available at: Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ Exchequer what recent representations he has received pbr08_taxreadyreckoner_287.pdf from the British Bankers’ Association on the regulatory These figures exclude the behavioural impact of a reforms proposed by the Financial Services Authority reduction in the small company’s rate, which is likely to on capital requirements for banks. [281582] lead to an increase in tax motivated incorporations. 893W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 894W

Departmental Manpower Mr. Byrne: Since their introduction in the 1998 comprehensive spending review (CSR), public service : To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreements (PSAs) have played a vital role in galvanising whether the Prime Minister’s (a) Strategy Unit and public service delivery and driving major improvements (b) Delivery Unit is conducting work related to the in outcomes. Department’s performance in the previous responsibilities of the Department of Energy and spending review period is always taken into consideration Climate Change. [266630] in any new spending review. The Prime Minister’s delivery unit was established in 2001, and while delivery of PSAs Mr. Byrne: The Strategy Unit are not conducting any is ultimately the responsibility of individual Departments work related to the responsibilities of DECC. However, PMDU and HM Treasury work closely to support the Strategy Unit are examining questions relating to Departments to ensure delivery against these challenging energy as part of a broader piece of work on the commitments. Currently 70 per cent. of SR02 PSAs European Neighbourhood Policy. are assessed as met, met-ongoing or partly met, while PMDU have recently worked with DECC on delivery 56 per cent. of SR04 PSAs are assessed as met, ahead or of home insulation commitments and on assessing progress on course. of PSA 27 for which DECC are the lead Department. Kaupthing Bank: Compensation Departmental Work Experience Mr. McLoughlin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Oaten: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what steps his Department has taken to compensate how many (a) paid and (b) unpaid graduate internships people who have sustained financial losses owing to the his Department has awarded in each of the last six failure of Kaupthing Bank. [278775] months. [281523] Sarah McCarthy-Fry [holding answer 9 June 2009]: Sarah McCarthy-Fry: No graduate internships have On 8 October 2008, the FSA concluded that Kaupthing been awarded in the last six months. However, there Singer and Friedlander Ltd. no longer met threshold have been a number of undergraduate placements arranged conditions and was in default for the purposes of the through various Government schemes this year. Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS). The Equitable Life Assurance Society Treasury, using an order under the Banking (Special Provisions) Act 2008, transferred KSF’s deposit book Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of “Kaupthing Edge” accounts to ING Direct. The what recent progress has been made in establishing the Government also committed to paying out in full FSCS ex-gratia payments scheme for Equitable Life eligible depositors whose accounts were not transferred. policyholders; what steps will be taken in relation to The remainder of KSF’s business was subsequently the scheme in the next two months; and if he will make placed into administration following due legal process. a statement. [281831] The administrators are responsible for managing the remainder of KSF’s business and loan book to maximise Sarah McCarthy-Fry [holding answer 23 June 2009]: recovery for creditors. The administrators will continue Sir John Chadwick has been appointed by the Government to deal with the assets in compliance with insolvency to review available information and consider a number law and the provisions of the transfer order (including of issues in relation to determining relative losses suffered those provisions of the transfer order which confer by Equitable Life policyholders, and their impact. Sir certain limited functions on the Treasury in relation to John’s work will inform the establishment of an ex-gratia the assets of KSF). Those depositors that are ineligible payments scheme. for FSCS compensation will be creditors of the bank in Last week Sir John issued a document that set out his the normal way and paid out in accordance with UK proposed approach and issues to be addressed in his insolvency procedures. work, alongside announcing his formal appointment of Deposits with Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander actuarial support and the launch of his website. The (Isle of Man) (KSF IoM) will be subject to the Isle of document gives interested parties an opportunity to Man deposit compensation scheme. This scheme is comment on Sir John’s proposed approach and written administered by the Isle of Man authorities. comments are invited to be sent to Sir John’s office by 17 July 2009. National Insurance Contributions Sir John expects to make an interim report to Government later this summer, containing a definitive Philip Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer statement of his approach for determining relative losses what estimate he has made of the cost to the Exchequer and a definitive list of the specific issues he will address. of a reduction of one per cent. in the rate of employers’ national insurance contributions in the present tax year. It is intended that a statement will be made to the House updating it on Sir John’s work and the establishment [281904] of the payments scheme before it rises on 21 July 2009. Mr. Timms: I refer the hon. Member to Table 5 of the Government Departments: Standards 2008 pre-Budget report: Tax ready reckoner and reliefs, which provides estimates of the effects of illustrative tax Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Chancellor of the changes, and is available at: Exchequer how many Departments have had funding http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ withheld since 1998 as a result of not meeting public pbr08_taxreadyreckoner_287.pdf service agreement targets; and how much funding was These figures exclude any estimate of behavioural withheld in each case. [266584] response. 895W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 896W

Public Expenditure Latest estimates of the average number of families benefiting from tax credits, as well as the average number Mr. Gauke: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of in-work families benefiting from the child care element (1) what estimate his Department has made of total in each Government office region, local authority and annually managed expenditure in (a) 2010-11, (b) parliamentary constituency, based on final family 2011-12, (c) 2012-13 and (d) 2013-14; [281884] circumstances and incomes, are available in the HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) publication “Child and (2) what estimate his Department has made of the Working Tax Credits Statistics. Finalised annual awards. debt interest the Government will pay in (a) 2010-11, Geographical analyses 2006-07”. This publication is (b) 2011-12, (c) 2012-13 and (d) 2013-14. [281885] available at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc-geog- Mr. Byrne [holding answer 23 June 2009]: Projections stats.htm for debt interest and annually managed expenditure (AME) for 2010-11 are shown in table C9 of the Budget HMRC do not produce these statistics separately for 2009 document. Projections for total public sector current child tax credit and working tax credit. Information is expenditure and public sector net investment to 2013-14 not yet available for 2007-08 at parliamentary constituency are shown in table C4 of the same document. level. Further information can be found at: Total AME programmes to 2010-11 have been forecast http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tc-delay-07-08.htm consistent with the economic assumptions and policy Latest estimates of the number of families who were decisions set out in Budget 2009. claiming child benefit in the areas requested are provided in the HMRC annual publication “Child Benefit Royal Bank of Scotland: Pay geographical statistics. August 2006”, available at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/child_benefit/geog-aug06.pdf Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Figures for August 2007 are not yet available. what recent discussions he has had with the Chairman and Chief Executive of UK Financial Investments in Taxation: Telecommunications respect of bonuses planned to be awarded to senior bankers at Royal Bank of Scotland. [278383] Mr. Swayne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Sarah McCarthy-Fry: UK Financial Investments Ltd. what rate per metre per year British Telecom is required (UKFI) has been set up to manage the Government’s to pay in respect of fibre tax. [281144] investments in financial institutions on a commercial basis and at arm’s length. As part of this work UKFI is Mr. Timms: British Telecom is assessed for business monitoring the non-lending conditions, including rates in the Central rating lists for England and Wales. remuneration, attached to recapitalisation and participation Their rateable values are shown in the Central rating in the Asset Protection Scheme for the Royal Bank of lists which are available on the Valuation Office Agency’s Scotland (RBS). HM Treasury has regular discussions website at: with UK Financial Investments and regularly monitors www.voa.gov.uk UKFI’s performance against its objectives. It is not possible to disaggregate how much of the UKFI has worked to ensure management incentivisation rateable value is attributable to fibre. based on long-term, sustainable performance and no rewards for failure, in order to protect the interest of the Mr. Swayne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer taxpayer as a shareholder. how much revenue has been raised from fibre tax in RBS has announced that there will be no bonuses or each year since its inception; and what the cost to the pay increases made to staff associated with the major Valuation Office Agency of collecting the revenue in losses suffered in 2008 and that board executive directors each such year was. [281145] will receive no bonus for 2008 performance and no pay increase in 2009. No discretionary cash bonuses will be Ian Pearson: Fibre optic telecommunication networks paid in 2009 for performance in 2008, and only legally are assessed for business rates, the majority, on local binding guaranteed bonuses will be paid. billing authority rating lists with a small number on the Central Lists for England and Wales. We do not hold Social Security Benefits: Families information on the amount of rates collected by local authorities from fibre optic cable networks. The Valuation Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Office Agency does not collect business rates. how many families have received (a) child trust fund payments, (b) child tax credit, (c) childcare tax credit Mr. Hunt: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and (d) working tax credit in each parliamentary whether value added tax will be levied on the proposed constituency in Lancashire in the latest period for supplement to be paid on all fixed copper lines referred which figures are available. [282059] to in the Digital Britain White Paper. [282035]

Mr. Timms: Estimates of the number of child trust Mr. Timms: The Government intend to consult on fund accounts opened for children born on or before 5 the proposal for a general supplement on all fixed April 2007, in each parliamentary constituency, are copper lines for a Next Generation Fund by September. available at: The details of the Government’s proposals will be set http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ctf/cons-stats-oct08.pdf out in that consultation. 897W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 898W

VAT: Training barrier to work, are eligible if they work 30 hours per week. The working tax credit has helped improve work Mr. Drew: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer incentives for people on low incomes to ensure that what recent representations he has received from (a) work pays. The Government believe it is important to commercial and (b) not-for-profit training providers protect these achievements, and while it keeps all aspects on the applicability of value added tax to fees paid in of tax credits under review, it currently has no plans to respect of chef training; and if he will make a change the hours rules. statement. [281778] However, to protect people affected by the economic downturn, the Government announced in the Budget Mr. Timms: Treasury Ministers and officials receive that from 31 July anyone who ceases to be eligible for representations from a wide variety of organisations in Working Tax Credit because of a fall in working hours the public and private sectors as part of the process of will continue to receive support for four weeks. This policy development and delivery. As was the case with support, worth up to £68 per week for a couple without previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s children and £32 per week for a single person, will help practice to provide details of all such representations. households as they adjust to their new work situation. The VAT treatment of chef training is governed by Written Questions: Government Responses the rules relating to the exemption from VAT for education. There are currently two categories of exemption: educational training supplied by an ’eligible body’ and private tuition Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Chancellor of the supplied by an individual (acting independently of an Exchequer when he plans to answer Question 266584, employer) in a subject ordinarily taught in a school or a tabled on 25 March 2009, on public service agreement university. targets. [282338] The list of eligible bodies was drawn up by the Mr. Byrne: I have replied to the hon. Member. previous Government in 1994 to reflect the scope of the exemption laid down in the EU Directive, which is for supplies by public bodies and those with similar aims. DEFENCE Welfare Tax Credits: Overpayments Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Greg Mulholland: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of people Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence required to make repayments as a result of overpayments how many UK military personnel are (a) embedded of their tax credits in (a) Great Britain, (b) Leeds and with Pakistani military units and (b) based in Pakistan (c) Leeds North West in the last 12 months. [282080] to co-ordinate military operations in support of UK military operations in Regional Command South. Mr. Timms: Information on the number of families [279963] with tax credits awards, including information on overpayments at UK level can be found in the HM Bill Rammell: There are currently no UK military Revenue and Customs (HMRC) publications, “Child personnel embedded with Pakistani military units. As and Working Tax Credits Statistics. Finalised Annual part of normal military relations, UK non-embedded Awards. Supplement on Payments”, for the years 2003-04 military staff based at the British high commission in to 2007-08 available at: Islamabad provide a liaison and co-ordination function between the Pakistani military and UK and NATO www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc-quarterly- stats.htm operations in Afghanistan. Similar Information at country, regional, local authority Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for and constituency level, can be found in the HMRC Defence how many fatalities of civilian contractors publications, “Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics; supplying British forces in Afghanistan there have been Finalised Annual Awards; Supplement on Payments in each year since 2001. [280192] and Geographical Analysis” for the years 2003-04 to 2006-07 at: Mr. Bob Ainsworth [holding answer 16 June 2009]: www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc-geog- This information is not held centrally and could be stats.htm provided only at disproportionate cost. Geographical information for 2007-08 is not yet available. More details can be found at: Mr. Breed: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tc-delav-07-08.htm what information his Department holds on the number of casualties sustained by forces from each NATO Working Tax Credit member state participating in the ISAF mission in Afghanistan in each of the last three years. [281197] Jim Cousins: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he plans next to review the number of hours of Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Ministry of Defence holds work a week which determines eligibility to receive statistics on the number of casualties suffered by UK working tax credit payments. [281587] forces in Afghanistan since 2001, which are published on the Ministry of Defence website at: Mr. Timms: Parents and people with a disability are http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/ eligible for Working Tax Credit if they work at least 16 OperationsFactsheets/ hours per week, while other people, who face less of a OperationsInAfghanistanBritishCasualties.htm 899W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 900W

We do not comment on the casualties suffered by Employment Tribunals Service other nations, which are matters for the countries concerned.

Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for how many times the UK has commanded Regional Defence how many actions under employment law have Command South in Afghanistan since 2003; and how been brought against his Department in each of the many UK troops were part of that command on each last three years; how many such actions were brought occasion. [281443] under each category of action; and how many such actions were contested by his Department at an Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The UK has commanded Regional employment tribunal. [277411] Command (South) once, between May 2007 and February 2008, since it was established in 2006. In February 2007 Bill Rammell: The number of employment related the endorsed force level for British troops in Afghanistan matters involving the Ministry of Defence in the last was 7,700. three financial years are provided in the following table.

Armed Forces: Northern Ireland Financial year 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Scotland 13 14 3 Dr. McCrea: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern 764 Defence how many soldiers were stationed in Northern Ireland Ireland in each of the last five years. [281333] England and 99 139 111 Wales Bill Rammell: The Defence Analytical Services and Advice (DASA) organisation produce these figures quarterly The figures for Scotland and Northern Ireland represent in Tri-Service Publication 10—“UK Regular Forces the total number of cases brought against the MOD Stationed Location” report, which is available on the before employment tribunals or other courts in the past DASA website at the following address: three financial years. The case categories for Scotland http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/ and Northern Ireland are set out in the following table. index.php?page=67&pubType=0&thiscontent=1800&date=2009-05-29 In contrast the figures for England and Wales represent the number of cases opened by the Treasury Solicitors Defence on behalf of the MOD in England and Wales in the financial years 2006-07 to 2008-09. Not all of the cases Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence opened by the Treasury Solicitors have resulted in when his Department plans to conduct its next proceedings being started in an employment tribunal or strategic defence review. [281442] other courts. To provide information on the number of cases brought to an employment tribunal in England Mr. Bob Ainsworth: No date has been set for a and Wales could have been provided only at defence review. disproportionate cost. For the cases opened by Treasury Solicitors the case categories are provided as follows. Departmental Food England and Wales Case category Number of cases

Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Age discrimination 21 what percentage of the (a) meat, (b) fruit and (c) Disability discrimination 48 vegetables procured by his Department in the last Equal pay 21 12 months was produced in the UK. [281946] Race discrimination 20 Religious discrimination 5 Mr. Quentin Davies: A second report on the proportion Sex/gender discrimination 49 of domestically produced food procured by Government Unfair/constructive dismissal 99 Departments and also supplied to hospitals and prisons Breach of contract 15 under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply Chain and Working time 4 HM Prison Service was published in November 2008, Wages claim/unlawful deduction 12 covering the year from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008. Holiday/maternity pay claim 2 This report and the first one covering the previous year Redundancy 3 can be found at: Transfer of undertakings 9 http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/policy/sustain/procurement/ Other 41 awareness.htm The report gives details of the proportion of individual In Scotland a total of 30 cases were brought in the meat, fruit and vegetable categories purchased. financial years 2006-07 to 2008-09. 25 cases were brought Although it is too early to show a trend, the report to an employment tribunal, four other cases were brought indicates that the amount of domestically produced in other courts or other specialist tribunals and one case food consumed by Government Departments in England was transferred to be dealt with in England and Wales. is increasing. The proportion of domestically produced Not all of the cases brought to a tribunal or court went food procured by MOD has gone up from 43 per cent. through the full tribunal or court procedure; several in 2006-07 to 59 per cent. in 2007-08. A third report is were settled or withdrawn. The case categories are set expected to be published at the end of 2009. out as follows. 901W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 902W

Scotland Within southern Iraq the UK currently has command Case category Number of cases of Coalition Task Force Iraqi Maritime which overseas the protection of the Iraqi offshore oil platforms and Age discrimination 2 maintenance of the security of Iraqi Territorial Waters. Disability discrimination 3 Equal pay 1 UK forces who remain on the Contingency Operating Sex/gender discrimination 2 Base in Basra are under the operational control of the Breach of contract 4 UK’s Joint Force Logistics Commander, for the purposes of withdrawal. While no formal command and control Unfair/constructive dismissal 6 relationships exist between these individuals and hosting Wages claim/unlawful deductions 6 US Forces, the US are responsible for their security and Reserve forces appeals tribunal 2 life support. Other 2 Cases involving a combination 2 The Prime Minister set out our future plans for Iraq of categories in the House on 15 June 2009, Official Report, column 22. Permissions for UK operational and training activities in Iraq expired on 31 May and we have paused in our In Northern Ireland a total of 17 cases were brought support to the Iraqi military. to an industrial tribunal or the Fair Employment Tribunal in the financial years 2006-07 to 2008-09. Not all of these cases would have gone through the full tribunal Nuclear Weapons procedure; several were settled or withdrawn, some remain outstanding and one case was transferred to the Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Treasury Solicitors. The case categories are set out as Defence pursuant to the answer of 20 March 2009, follows. Official Report, column 1344W, on USA: military Northern Ireland alliances, on what date and at which location the June Case category Number of cases 2009 Stocktake meeting between the Government and the US administration under the 1958 Mutual Defence Age discrimination 2 Agreement is scheduled to take place; and if he will Disability discrimination 2 place in the Library a copy of the programme for the Equal pay 14 meeting. [280421] Race discrimination 3 Religious discrimination 2 Mr. Quentin Davies: The 33rd meeting of the UK/US Sex/gender discrimination 1 Stocktake was held in the Ministry of Defence, Main Unfair/constructive dismissal 3 Building, Whitehall, London on Tuesday 9 June. The 1 This includes one part time equal pay claim which has been programme comprised discussions on nuclear threat transferred from the Crown Solicitors Office to the Treasury Solicitors reduction, warhead, and platform issues, together with and which covers a total of 1,053 claimants. a consideration of potential future exchanges. I am withholding a copy of the programme for the Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations purpose of safeguarding national security.

Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Nuclear Weapons: Public Opinion what the (a) operational control, (b) administrative control, (c) technical control, (d) tactical control and Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for (e) other command relationship between UK and Defence what his Department’s most recent opinion non-UK forces operating in Iraq is at the lowest unit poll data are on public opinion on the retention of the level for which data is available. [279967] United Kingdom’s nuclear deterrent. [281402]

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Within Baghdad, the Senior British Mr. Bob Ainsworth [holding answer 22 June 2009]: Military Representative and Deputy Commanding General Questions on the retention of the UK’s nuclear deterrent Multi-National Forces-Iraq is under operational command were included in the public poll on perceptions of the of the UK’s Chief of Joint Operations, working within Ministry of Defence and UK armed forces conducted the US command chain to fulfil the duties implicit in his in December 2003. coalition appointment. The Senior British Military The following figures were collated for the public Representative-Iraq has operational control of all UK opinion poll on whether the UK should keep its nuclear staff officers embedded in the Multi-National Force-Iraq weapons: structure and delegate’s tactical command of these 8 per cent. strongly agreed individuals as appropriate. 35 per cent. tended to agree A number of UK forces in Baghdad are assigned to 25 per cent. tended to disagree the NATO Training Mission -Iraq, where fully embedded 9 per cent. strongly disagreed UK staff officers are under operational command of NATO and a UK infantry platoon providing force protection at the Iraqi Military Academy is under the Nuclear Weapons: Transport operational control of the Senior British Military Representative Iraq and tactical command of NATO. Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for All UK staff assigned to the NATO Training Mission Defence what the role of the Fleet Protection Group are under administrative control of NATO for routine Royal Marines is in the protection of nuclear weapons life support. road convoys. [280422] 903W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 904W

Bill Rammell: The Fleet Protection Group Royal Constituency Airport Marines element of the nuclear weapon convoy security escort provides specific capabilities to counter a no-notice Southampton, Itchen terrorist attack. Hayes and Harlington London Heathrow TRANSPORT A303 Leeds, North-West Leeds Bradford International Robert Key: To ask the Minister of State, Department Pudsey for Transport when an inspection was last carried out of the condition of the carriageway on the A303 at its Liverpool, Garston Liverpool John Lennon junction with the A345 at Countess Roundabout, Wiltshire; what reports he has received on levels of road safety at Luton, South London Luton this junction; and if he will make a statement. [280725]

Chris Mole: The Highways Agency carries out safety Meriden Birmingham International inspections every 28 days on trunk roads and the last one at this location was on 2 June 2009. No safety Mid Norfolk Norwich International critical defects were identified in this inspection. Norwich, North We are aware of minor defects to the road surface that do not pose an immediate danger to the travelling public, and overnight repairs are planned for the week , North Newcastle International commencing 22 June 2009 to deal with the most significant of these. North Cornwall Newquay, Cornwall In a five year period the Countess Roundabout has had a recorded 32 accidents across all arms of the North West Leicestershire East Midlands roundabout and the circulatory carriageway. None of the accidents had a poor or defective road surface listed Plymouth, Devonport Plymouth City as a contributing factor. Annual Safety Statements concerning road safety are Saffron Walden London Stansted compiled by the Highways Agency across the entire trunk road network including Countess Roundabout. Sedgefield Durham Tees Valley The most recent statement for this location was issued Stockton, South in October 2008. Airports Tatton Manchester Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Minister of Wythenshawe and Sale, East State, Department for Transport which parliamentary constituencies have airports wholly or partly within their boundaries. [281656] Tiverton and Honiton Woodspring Bristol International Paul Clark: “The Future of Air Transport” White Paper, which set out the strategic framework for the development of airport capacity in the United Kingdom Northern Ireland to 2030, identified 30 major airports in the UK. The Belfast, East Belfast City following table lists, in the right hand column, the South Antrim Belfast International major airports and in the left hand column the constituency or constituencies within which each airport is situated: Scotland Central Ayrshire Glasgow Prestwick Constituency Airport Edinburgh, West Edinburgh England Gordon Aberdeen Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Inverness Blackpool, South Blackpool International Strathspey Fylde Paisley and Renfrewshire, North Glasgow

Brigg and Goole Cleethorpes Humberside International Wales Vale of Glamorgan Cardiff International Christchurch Bournemouth International

Crawley London Gatwick Aviation: Fees and Charges Don Valley Robin Hood Doncaster Sheffield Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Minister of State, East Ham London City Department for Transport what recent representations Poplar and Canning Town his Department has received on (a) restrictions imposed and (b) charges levied by airlines on passengers who

Eastleigh Southampton require supplementary oxygen when travelling by air. [281822] 905W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 906W

Paul Clark: The Department for Transport has received Paul Clark: The Department for Transport only produces some 130 letters about the carriage of oxygen. European noise contours for the three London noise designated Regulation 1107/2006 on the rights of disabled persons airports—Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted. Elsewhere and persons with reduced mobility when travelling by the monitoring of aircraft noise falls to the local airport air does not impose specific obligations on airlines to operator. carry or provide oxygen in the cabin. Where air carriers However in line with the EU Environmental Noise do supply medical oxygen to passengers on request, it is Directive 2002/49/EU (transposed by the Environmental possible to make a charge for this service. However, Noise (England) Regulations (2006)), Birmingham many airlines including British Airways, Virgin Atlantic, International Airport—in common with other airports EasyJet and Flybe allow passengers to use their own with 50,000 movements and above—is required to oxygen and their own Portable Oxygen Concentrator commence formal consultation on a Noise Action Plan free of charge. It is important that passengers know by 1 July. These draft plans, which have been prepared airlines’ charging policies before choosing which carrier in response to noise mapping contours produced in to fly with. 2007, are required to be developed in consultation with Aviation: Noise the local community.

Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Minister of Bus Services: Concessions State, Department for Transport (1) what requirements there are on light aircraft taking off from or landing at Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Minister of State, Department airports located close to housing developments to have for Transport how many pensioners in (a) Chorley and silencers fitted; and if he will make a statement; (b) Lancashire received concessionary bus passes in [281654] the latest period for which figures are available. (2) what recent discussions he has had with the Civil [282083] Aviation Authority on its policy on the fitting of silencers to light aircraft; and if he will make a Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport is not statement. [281655] responsible for issuing passes and so do not maintain records of how many passes individual authorities have Paul Clark: Aerodromes are expected to consider the issued. environmental impact of their operations and apply Chorley and Lancashire are part of the NoWcard measures designed to minimise the noise impact on the scheme. The last information held by the Department is local population. To assist aerodromes in this task, the that; as of April 2008 the NoWcard scheme had received Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has published best 280,200 applications from older and disabled people. practice guidance on noise considerations at general aviation aerodromes which is available on their website. This guidance also serves to provide members of the Departmental Conditions of Employment public with an explanation of the constraints and factors that must be considered by aerodrome operators when John McDonnell: To ask the Minister of State, deciding on the noise mitigation measures that could be Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of adopted. 22 May 2009, Official Report, column 1489W, on In the UK, aircraft are required to comply with the departmental conditions of employment, what timetable Aircraft Noise standards recommended by the International he has set for the consideration of the standardisation Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) and published in of processes in areas such as travel and subsistence annex 16 to the Chicago Convention (annex 16, volume claims and annual performance. [281159] 1). The certification requirements place a maximum decibel limit on the noise level that an aircraft may Chris Mole: The Department for Transport is considering produce, and are specific to the aircraft type concerned. standardisation of human resource processes and detailed The requirements do not specify how those noise limits work on initial key areas, such as developing e-recruitment, should be met, e.g. through the use of silencers. is under way. The Department for Transport has not had any recent The specific issues identified by the National Audit discussions with the CAA about the fitting of silencers Office as needing addressing in the medium-term, including to light aircraft. The effective management of aircraft the approach to travel and subsistence claims and annual noise includes a number of elements, including action performance appraisals, are not yet planned in detail. to address noise at source. While it is possible to fit Specific timetables to address these have not yet been silencers to some light aircraft, this can have an effect scheduled. on engine power and consequently aircraft performance. The CAA must take these factors into account on a case Departmental Data Protection by case basis when considering whether the installation of silencers on different types of light aircraft. Mr. Blunt: To ask the Minister of State, Department Birmingham Airport: Air Pollution for Transport how many breaches of information security there have been at (a) his Department and (b) Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, Department its agencies in the last five years. [281085] for Transport what research his Department has commissioned on levels of noise pollution in the area Chris Mole: Data on breaches of information security surrounding Birmingham airport in the last three years. for the last five years for the Department for Transport [282046] and its agencies is not held centrally. 907W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 908W

The Department and its agencies report all significant Departmental Plants personal data security breaches to the Cabinet Office and the Information Commissioner’s Office. Information Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Department on personal data security breaches are published on an for Transport how much his Department spent on (a) annual basis in the department’s annual resource accounts pot plants and (b) cut flowers in 2008-09. [280019] as was announced in the Data Handling Review published on 25 June 2008. Chris Mole: The Department for Transport spent Additionally, all significant control weaknesses including £87,401 on pot plants and £3,419 on cut flowers in other significant security breaches are included in the 2008-09. This excludes spend incurred at the Vehicle Statement of Internal Control which is published within and Operator Services Agency as the information requested the annual resource accounts. can be provided only at disproportionate cost. Spend on pot plants includes provision, maintenance and replacement of plants. Departmental Electricity All expenditure was incurred in accordance with the principles of Managing Public Money and the Treasury Mr. Paice: To ask the Minister of State, Department handbook on Regularity and Propriety. for Transport what estimate he has made of the percentage of electricity used by his Department which Disability Discrimination Act was derived from renewable sources in (a) 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08. [280965] Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what assessment he has made Chris Mole: The Department for Transport reports of progress towards compliance with the provisions of its electricity derived from renewable sources figures the Disability Discrimination Act in respect of accessibility through the annual Sustainable Development in by persons with disabilities (a) to buses by 2017 and Government (SDiG) report. The figures for 2006-07 (b) to rail vehicles by 2020; and if he will make a and 2007-08 are as follows: statement. [281824] Renewable electricity Mr. Khan: The Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Renewable Percentage of total Regulations 2000 require all buses and coaches both old Electricity kWh electricity and new to comply with the provisions of Disability 2006-07 32,203,331 62.5 Discrimination Act 1995, from 2015 through to 2017 2007-08 29,713,276 55.3 for buses, and from 2020 for coaches. Buses used on local services have been steadily becoming more accessible. The figures have fallen due to an increased use of In 2008 (the latest statistics available), around 62 per Combined Heat and Power (CHP) and the over estimation cent. of the bus fleet meet low floor and accessibility of consumption in 2006-07, but the Department for requirements. Transport’s target to use electricity of which more than Almost 5000 rail vehicles (including 42 per cent. of 10 per cent. has been derived from renewable sources the national train fleet) are in service, having been built has been exceeded. to modern access standards. Furthermore, almost all older rail vehicles have featured increased accessibility as they have undergone refurbishment. Departmental Food Exhaust Emissions: Essex

Tim Farron: To ask the Minister of State, Department Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what percentage of the (a) meat, (b) for Transport how much funding his Department fruit and (c) vegetables procured by his Department in allocated for the development of transportation with the last 12 months was produced in the UK. [281938] (a) low and (b) no carbon dioxide emissions in (i) Essex and (ii) Castle Point in each of the last five years. Chris Mole: A second report on the proportion of [281634] domestically produced food used by Government Departments and also supplied to hospitals and prisons Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport allocates under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply Chain and integrated transport block funding to local transport HM Prison Service was published in November 2008, authorities for capital investment in transport. Funding covering the year from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008. provided by the Department to local authorities is not This report and the first one covering the previous year generally ring-fenced and local authorities have discretion can be found at: to spend their allocations in line with their priorities, http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/policy/sustain/procurement/ such as the development of low-carbon transportation. awareness.htm The following table shows funding support the Department The report gives details of the proportion of individual provided for Essex from 2004-05 to 2008-09. meat, fruit and vegetable categories purchased and shows Integrated Transport Funding that the proportion of domestically produced food procured £ million by the Department for Transport in 2007-08 was 71 per cent. 2008-09 12.932 2007-08 12.518 A third report is expected to be published at the end 2006-07 13.327 of 2009. 909W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 910W

Integrated Transport Funding Mr. Khan: We have now received and are considering £ million the Inspector’s report following the public inquiry on the Humber Bridge Board’s toll review application. A 2005-06 13.800 decision will be made as soon as possible. 2004-05 14.250 Maritime and Coastguard Agency: Pay Revenue expenditure on transport is generally supported through the Department for Communities and Local Government’s Formula Grant. Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how much was paid in bonuses to (a) The Department has funded sustainable travel projects directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and such as the ’Walking to School Initiative Grant scheme’—in delivery managers and (d) executive support and 2008-09 Essex schools received £20,500. It has provided administration staff in the Maritime and Coastguard Essex county council with £10,000 for cycle training Agency in each of the last five years. [281628] grants in 2008-09. The Department has also made the following funding available to Essex county council in Paul Clark: The information is not available in the the last five years for Rural Bus Subsidy and cycling format requested; however the amounts paid in bonuses ‘Links to School’: by grade in each of the last five years is shown in the following table: £ million Rural Bus Subsidy Links to School £ 2008-09 1.893 0.195 Total 2007-08 1.847 0.076 Grade 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2006-07 1.804 0.277 AA 5,536 5,902 5,829 6,471 6,187 2005-06 1.761 0.235 (Admin) 2004-05 1.694 — AA 40,399 43,070 42,540 47,224 45,150 (Operational) Bus Service Operators Grant (BSOG) has been reformed AO 50,352 53,681 53,020 58,859 56,273 to link better with Government objectives, particularly (Admin) on climate change. The previous link between BSOG AO 45,707 48,728 48,129 53,429 51,082 and fuel duty has now been broken and only those bus (Operational) operators who achieve a 6 per cent. improvement in EO 43,443 46,315 45,745 50,782 48,551 their fuel efficiency compared with the previous one or (Admin) two years will receive an increase of 3 per cent. in their EO 56,355 60,081 59,342 65,876 62,982 (Operational) BSOG from April 2010. In addition, operators will HEO 40,668 43,356 42,822 47,538 45,450 receive an additional 6p per kilometre on routes operated (Admin) by low carbon emission buses from 1 April 2009. HEO 16,493 17,583 17,367 19,279 18,432 Detailed policies and proposals for reducing carbon (Operational) dioxide emissions will be published in the Department’s SEO 38,023 40,536 40,038 44,446 42,494 Carbon Reduction Strategy this summer. (Admin) SEO 66,990 71,419 70,540 78,307 74,868 (Operational) Fishing Vessels Grade 7 57,522 61,324 60,570 67,239 64,286 Grade 6 16,279 17,355 17,141 19,029 18,193 Mr. Swayne: To ask the Minister of State, Department SCS 3,183 3,394 3,352 3,721 3,558 for Transport when he expects the Maritime and Grade 5 Coastguard Agency to conclude its analysis of stability SCS 7,944 8,469 8,365 9,286 8,878 criteria for small fishing vessels; and if he will make a Grade 3 statement. [281857] Grand 488,895 521,212 514,801 571,486 546,383 Total

Paul Clark: Further to my answer of 16 June 2009, Public Transport: Hampshire Official Report, column 172W,concerning the Maritime and Coastguard Agency’s (MCA) research into the stability criteria for small fishing vessels; the MCA plan Sandra Gidley: To ask the Minister of State, Department to meet with research consultants during July to review for Transport what funding his Department has allocated their conclusions before the fishing industry Fishing to improve public transport in (a) Test Valley borough Vessel Stability Working Group meets in August 2009. and (b) Southampton in 2009-10. [281373] Following the working group meeting they plan to provide simple and practical guidance about stability of Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport allocates small fishing boats. integrated transport block and highways maintenance funding to local transport authorities for capital investment in transport. Funding provided by the Department to Humber Bridge: Tolls local authorities is not generally ring-fenced and local authorities have discretion to spend their allocations in Shona McIsaac: To ask the Minister of State, line with their priorities, such as the provision of public Department for Transport when he expects to receive transport. Figures are not available at constituency the report of the public inquiry on the Humber Bridge level. The following table shows funding support for toll. [281604] Hampshire and Southampton in 2009-10. 911W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 912W

The royal household seeks to contract in the most 2009-10 (£ million) economic and efficient way for the supply of air and rail Hampshire 32.019 services, consistent with the safety and security of members Southampton 4.408 of the royal family and other key requirements of royal travel. The royal household ensures it takes financial Revenue expenditure on transport is generally supported considerations fully into account when framing, reaching, through the Department for Communities and Local or giving effect to decisions which bear upon the royal Government’s Formula Grant. travel grant in aid budget. In 2008-09 and 2009-10 special grant funding is being provided by the Department for Transport to meet the Southern: Railway Stations additional cost of the new, England-wide concessionary bus travel. The allocations made for this purpose to Test Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Valley and Southampton for 2009-10 are shown in the for Transport how much (a) his Department and (b) following table. Transport for London plans to spend on deep cleaning Concessionary fares funding stations along the South Central franchise route. 2009-10 (£ million) [280378] Southampton 1.084 Chris Mole: Overall the bidder proposes to spend at Test Valley 0.231 least £5.1 million on a deep clean and minor fault rectification package on stations within the Greater Public Transport: Peterborough London Authority boundary and a further £2.7 million on a similar package outside London. This package of Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister of State, works however will generate additional revenues through Department for Transport what funding his enhanced station environments, and as such the net cost Department has allocated to the development of public to Department for Transport of the package will be transport in Peterborough in 2009-10. [281684] significantly below this. Vehicle and Operator Services Agency: Consultants Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport allocates integrated transport block funding to local transport authorities for capital investment in transport. Funding Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department provided by the Department to local authorities is not for Transport how much the Vehicle and Operator generally ring-fenced and local authorities have discretion Services Agency has spent on external consultants in to spend their allocations in line with their priorities, each of the last five years. [281630] such as the provision of public transport. The Department provided £2.289 million to Peterborough in 2009-10. Paul Clark: The Vehicle and Operator Services Agency has spent the following amount on external consultants Revenue expenditure on transport is generally supported in each of the last five years: through the Department for Communities and Local Government’s formula grant. £ million The Department allocates money for rail projects in England but funding information is not available on the 2004-05 3.4 basis of local authority boundaries. The same applies 2005-06 1.4 for bus service operators grant, which is given direct to 2006-07 3.0 bus operators. 2007-08 3.7 In 2008-09 and 2009-10 special grant funding is being 2008-09 11.8 provided by the Department for Transport to meet the 1 Figures for 2008-09 are draft as they are not yet audited and additional cost of the new, England-wide concessionary published. bus travel—Peterborough’s allocation in 2009-10 was Vehicle and Operator Services Agency: Manpower £0.733 million. Peterborough has also been allocated £0.181 million in rural bus subsidy grant for 2009-10. Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many (a) directors, (b) senior Royal Family: Travel managers, (c) specialist and delivery managers and (d) executive support and administration staff there were Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, in each Vehicle and Operator Services Agency office in Department for Transport pursuant to the answer of each of the last five years. [280614] 15 June 2009, Official Report, column 15W, on Royal Family: travel, what steps his Department takes to Paul Clark: The Vehicle and Operator Services Agency assess whether travel arrangements proposed by the employed the following number of staff in the categories Royal Travel Office and Royal Household (a) achieve requested: value for money and (b) minimise environmental impact before providing funding for them. [281735] 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Paul Clark: Decisions on air and rail travel arrangements (a) Directors 8 9 10 10 7 for members of the royal family are taken by the royal (b) Senior 129 141 140 152 158 travel office with regard to agreed criteria, including the Managers need to achieve value for money and minimise the (c) Specialist/ 311 318 325 341 371 Del. Managers environmental impact. 913W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 914W

Court proceedings data for 2008 will be available in 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 the autumn of 2009. (d) Exec/ 1,003 946 789 757 752 The number of defendants who were found guilty at all courts for Admin Support offences relating to arson in the Metropolitan and City of London police force areas, 20071, 2 Figures as at 31 March of each year. City of Metropolitan London Vehicle and Operator Services Agency: Pay Offence police force police force Statute description area area

Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department Criminal Arson 35 0 for Transport how much was paid in bonuses to (a) Damage Act endangering life directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and 1971 Sec.1(2) delivery managers and (d) executive support and and (3) administration staff in the Vehicle and Operator Criminal Arson not 64 0 Services Agency in each of the last five years. [280324] Damage Act endangering life 1971 Sec.1(1) and (3) Paul Clark: The Vehicle and Operator Services Agency Total 99 0 (VOSA) has paid the following amount in bonuses: 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they £ were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or (c) more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is Specialist imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more (b) and (d) Ex offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory (a) Senior delivery and admin maximum penalty is the most severe. Directors1 managers managers support 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these 2004-05 5,000 4,410 4,750 5,565 data have been extracted from large administrative data systems 2005-06 41,700 7,950 5,275 24,445 generated by police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken 2006-07 30,900 6,150 4,900 18,345 to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 2007-08 51,700 20,300 19,370 10,715 Source: 2008-092 37,100 8,800 5,200 4,000 Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Grand 166,400 47,610 39,495 63,070 Ministry of Justice. total 1 Directors’ bonuses include senior civil servants performance bonuses that are set centrally within the Department for Transport. Community Legal Advice: Telephone Services 2 VOSA’s 2008 pay award has not been implemented yet. Note: Figures are based on special performance bonuses. To establish Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice performance related pay (PRP) figures in the manner requested (1) how much was spent on the Community Legal would result in disproportionate cost being incurred. Advice telephone service in each year since 2004; [280845] (2) how many calls have been made to the Community JUSTICE Legal Advice telephone service in each year since 2004. [280846] Arson: Greater London Mr. Straw: The Community Legal Advice telephone Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice service was launched on 14 July 2004. The total cost of how many convictions for arson there were in each expenditure on the Community Legal Advice telephone London borough in the latest year for which figures are service in each year since 2004 is shown in the following available. [280847] table. All figures are inclusive of VAT. Since 2006 all calls are routed through an initial Mr. Straw: The number of defendants found guilty at triage service. The triage service diagnoses problems, all courts for offences relating to arson in the Metropolitan assesses eligibility for legal aid and refers people onto and City of London police force areas for 2007 (latest alternative sources of help. This service costs approximately available) is shown in the following table. £6 per call. Only those eligible for legal aid are then It is not possible to break down further the data to passed through to specialist advisors. These providers individual borough level, thus police force area data for won competitive tenders to carry out telephone work Metropolitan and City of London police force areas and their average hourly rate is approximately £46. have been provided in lieu. The service started from scratch in 2004 and has These data are on the principal offence basis. The evolved since then (for example, family calls were dealt figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to with for the first time in 2008). It is not possible to make persons for whom these offences were the principal meaningful comparisons between the cost per case in offence for which they were dealt with. When a defendant 2004 and that in 2009. has been found guilty of two or more offences, the offence selected is the one for which the heaviest penalty Total cost (£ million) is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two 2004-05 3.5 or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for 2005-06 5.0 which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 915W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 916W

Her Majesty’s Land Registry Total cost (£ million) Energy type Annual consumption kWh 2006-07 8.5 Electricity 20687222 2007-08 13.0 Natural Gas 21252152 2008-09 14.5 Departmental Land The number of calls made to the Community Legal Advice telephone service since its inception is shown in the following table. Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how much surplus land (a) his Department and (b) Number of calls made its agencies had in each year since the Department was established; [276482] 2004-05 204,893 (2) what the latest valuation is of each site of surplus 2005-06 273,157 land owned by his Department and its agencies. 2006-07 387,977 [276483] 2007-08 411,954 2008-09 566,085 Mr. Straw: The following table identifies surplus land and corresponding valuations within the Ministry of Departmental Energy Justice for each year since its establishment in 2007.

Site Valuation (£) Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how much (a) electricity and (b) gas was used Her Majesty’s (i) on his Department’s estate and (ii) by his Prison Service Department’s agencies in each year from its inception 2007-08 Onley Sewage 185,000 to 2008-09. [280512] Frankley Farm 1100,000 Stocken Farm Land Sale 120,000 Mr. Wills: The tables show the quantity of electricity Tudworth Lindlhome 11,020,000 and gas used in the financial year April 2007 to March Aldington 1105,000 2008, although the Ministry of Justice was created on 9 May 2007 and therefore the figures for the core estate Exeter Sale 1211,000 provided include the energy consumption of the Miscellaneous Plots 18,000 Department of Constitutional Affairs’ core estate between Ley Hill,Gloucestershire 21,500,000 1 April and 9 May. Similarly, the figures for the National Portland, Dorset 2175,000 Offender Management Service’s (NOMS) custodial property include the period from 1 April to 9 May when NOMS was part of the Home Office’s estate. 2008-09 Guys Marsh Sewage 15,000 Channings Wood 156,000 The Ministry of Justice is in the process of collating data for 2008-09. This will be made available in the Shrewsbury 16,000 Sustainable Development in Government Report later Full Sutton 110,000 this year. Huntercombe 115,000 MoJ HQ core estate Gringley 15,300,000 Energy type Annual consumption kWh Hindley 138,000

2 Electricity 20179413 Wymot 75,000 Natural Gas 7417634 Miscellaneous Plots 110,000 Ley Hill, Gloucestershire 21,500,000 Her Majesty’s Courts Service 2 Energy type Annual consumption kWh Portland, Dorset 175,000

Electricity 143502717 Her Majesty’s Natural Gas 142798412 Courts Service Tribunals Service 2007-09 Ebbw Vale, Gwent 2255,000 Energy type Annual consumption kWh New Mills, Derbyshire 2145,000 1 Sold for this amount. Electricity 7487197 2 Valued at this amount. Natural Gas 741894 Note: Both HMCS sites have been surplus since HMCS’s inception in 2005. National Offender Management Service (custodial property) Energy type Annual consumption kWh Driving Under Influence

Electricity 316055628 Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Natural Gas 810129566 Justice (1) how many and what percentage of drivers The National Archives received a ban from driving for drink-driving in each Energy Type Annual consumption kWh year since 1997; [278626]

Electricity 12477836 (2) how many and what percentage of drivers have Natural Gas 7773972 had at least one ban from driving due to drink-driving; [278627] 917W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 918W

(3) what the average length of a driving ban for Table 1: Total number of driving licence holders in England, Wales, 1,2 drink-driving was in (a) 1997 and (b) 2007. [278628] and Scotland, 1997 to 2007 Driving licence holders1 Claire Ward: The total number of driving licence 2002 39,214,224 holders in England, Wales, and Scotland, 1997 to 2007 can be viewed in table 1. From data held by the DVLA 2003 39,791,629 (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) it is not possible 2004 40,389,130 to separately identify of those holding Driving Licences 2005 41,077,900 those that were from either England, Wales, or Scotland 2006 41,681,116 The total disqualifications imposed at all courts for 2007 42,345,445 ‘Driving etc., after consuming alcohol or taking drugs’, 1 Data provided by the DVLA. in England and Wales, 1997 to 2007 can be viewed in 2 From data held by the DVLA, it is not possible to separately identify table 2. of those holding driving licences those that were from either England, Wales, or Scotland. The total number of driving disqualifications imposed Source: and the period of disqualification imposed at all Courts DVLA (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) in England and Wales, 1997 to 2007 (latest available) in England and Wales can be viewed in table 3. Table 2: Total disqualifications imposed at all courts for ‘Driving etc., From the information available to the Ministry of after consuming alcohol or taking drugs’, in England and Wales, 1997 to 20071 Justice it is not possible to identify those drivers who Total disqualifications imposed have received more than one driving disqualification during the period 1997 to 2007. 1997 92,962 The average length of disqualification is not available 1998 86,191 as the court proceedings database held by the Ministry 1999 83,117 of Justice does not contain the exact length of 2000 80,285 disqualification for the requested offences. 2001 79,274 Information on court proceedings in Scotland is a 2002 84,887 matter for the Scottish Executive. 2003 87,013 2008 Ministry of Justice data will be available in the 2004 90,308 autumn of 2009. 2005 86,867 2006 87,190 Table 1: Total number of driving licence holders in England, Wales, 2007 84,007 and Scotland, 1997 to 20071,2 1 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate Driving licence holders1 and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by 1997 37,285,116 the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken 1998 37,644,178 to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 1999 38,071,154 Source: 2000 38,437,308 OCJR E and A (Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Evidence and 2001 38,508,972 Analysis Unit), Ministry of Justice

Table 3: Total disqualifications imposed and period of disqualification imposed at all courts for ‘Driving etc., after consuming alcohol or taking drugs’, England and Wales, 1997 to 20071,2 Period of disqualification Over 10 Over 2 3 4 5 years Over 6 1 year years years years years and Until months and and and and and over. Total driving Under and under under under under under Less disqualifications test 6 6 under 1 2 3 3 4 5 10 than imposed passed months months year 1 year years years years years years years life Life

1997 92,962 85 234 345 132 35,136 21,073 11,461 20,389 221 1,512 2,168 191 15 1998 86,191 160 291 291 120 30,709 19,001 13,494 18,372 235 1,275 2,024 188 31 1999 83,117 178 244 304 101 29,402 18,694 13,159 17,597 189 1,243 1,840 146 20 2000 80,285 135 246 279 79 27,272 18,708 14,002 16,578 146 1,247 1,481 103 9 2001 79,274 90 285 284 77 25,068 17,842 16,015 16,351 219 1,405 1,533 98 7 2002 84,887 88 330 304 75 26,185 19,500 17,129 17,644 206 1,656 1,623 137 10 2003 87,013 85 288 264 123 26,611 19,623 18,145 18,220 199 1,578 1,741 125 11 2004 90,308 123 327 304 134 27,133 26,391 13,371 18,793 230 1,716 1,670 103 13 2005 86,867 127 380 336 113 26,027 27,323 12,240 16,947 283 1,548 1,461 72 10 2006 87,190 130 408 301 91 25,311 28,261 13,009 16,497 242 1,433 1,417 85 5 2007 84,007 114 408 284 103 23,695 27,397 12,877 16,014 321 1,435 1,294 56 9 1 Included in “Total disqualifications imposed”. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their Inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: OCJR E and A (Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Evidence and Analysis Unit), Ministry of Justice 919W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 920W

Electorate Table 1: Recorded Special Bonuses 2004-05 to 2008-09 Special Bonuses Recorded Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Grade 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Justice how many voters were eligible to vote in the (a) Directors (Senior 16,750 5,000 — 321,998 279,900 2009 elections to the European Parliament and (b) Civil Service) 2005 General Election. [281759] Senior Managers 137,868 158,546 110,962 296,449 483,141 (A-D) Specialist / Delivery 214,282 282,713 234,667 482,388 875,545 Mr. Wills: Figures in relation to the number of people Managers (Managers eligible to vote in the (a) 2009 elections to the European E-G) Parliament and (b) 2005 general election are not available. Executive / Admin 98,340 108,899 86,197 110,937 203,956 This is because the Office for National Statistics (ONS) (AA, AO, EO) does not hold data for the population eligible to vote in Total 467,555,158 555,158 431,826 1,121,772 1,842,542 parliamentary elections, which includes British citizens resident overseas and excludes foreign citizens (from Table 2: Non-Consolidated Performance Payments 2005-06 to 2008-09 outside the British Commonwealth and Republic of Non-consolidated performance payments Ireland) resident within England and Wales. Indeed, Grade 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 there is no central database that holds this information. Directors (Senior Data not 202,483 160,648 231,000 273,162 The ONS state that the closest available approximation Civil Service) available to the number of people registered to vote in the 2009 Senior and Delivery As above 633,145 404,699 450,605 625,565 1 European election is 45,226,650. This figure refers to managers Executive Support/ As above 357,813 450,656 487,540 630,265 the number of people who were registered in the UK to Admin vote in the European election on 1 December 2008 and Total 1,193,444 1,016,003 1,169,145 1,428,992 is based on a qualifying date of 15 October 2008. That 1 It is not possible to separate payments to Senior Managers and Specialist was the most recent date for which data on the electorate and Delivery Managers without incurring disproportionate cost. are collated. The cut off date for registration, as enacted by the Electoral Administration Act 2006 is 11 days The two tables above are derived from different sources before the poll, so the actual number of people registered and the data for table 2 cannot be disaggregated. Special to vote in the 2009 European election may be different Bonuses are reported on Oracle HR and the Non- from this figure. Consolidated Performance Payments information comes from payroll. ONS figures show that the number of people who were registered to vote in the UK parliamentary elections Table 3: Combined special bonus and non-consolidated performance payments for Westminster on 1 December 2004 was 44,180,464. Non-consolidated performance payments and special bonuses This figure is based on a qualifying date of 15 October Grade 2004-052 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2004 and is the closest available approximation to the Directors 16,750,000 207,483 160,648 462,998 553,062 number of people who were registered to vote in the (Senior Civil 2005 general election when registration closed some six Service) to eight weeks before the poll. Senior and 352,150,00 1,074,404 750,328 1,229,442 1,984,251 Delivery managers1 National Offender Management Information System Executive 98,340,00 466,715 536,853 598,477 734,221 Support/ Admin John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Total 467,240 1,748,602 1,447,829 2,290,917 3,271,534 Justice how much his Department and its agencies have 1 Information on non-consolidated performance payments not available for spent on C-NOMIS. [280182] 2004-05 Prisoners : The cost of the C-NOMIS project from inception to December 2007 was £160.7 million (which Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice excludes depreciation and cost of capital). On 8 January how many prisoners aged over 70 are being held in each 2008, the C-NOMIS project was revised and became prison in England and Wales. [281576] part of the new NOMIS Programme, which is delivering Maria Eagle: The number of prisoners aged 70 and five projects. Expenditure on the NOMIS Programme over in each prison establishment in England and Wales to 31 March 2009 was £75 million. This sum includes as at the end of April 2009 can be found in the following costs incurred in financial year 2008-09 which are still table: subject to audit. 70+ population Prison Service: Pay Acklington 16 Albany 25 Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Altcourse 5 how much was paid in bonuses to (a) directors, (b) Ashfield 0 senior managers, (c) specialist and delivery managers Ashwell 1 and (d) executive support and administration staff in Askham Grange 0 HM Prison Service in each of the last five years. Aylesbury 0 [280609] Bedford 2 Belmarsh 3 Mr. Straw: Information on the amount paid in Special Birmingham 5 Bonuses and non-consolidated performance payments Blantyre House 2 to the staff specified is provided in the following tables. 921W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 922W

70+ population 70+ population

Blundeston 1 Leicester 1 Brinsford 0 Lewes 3 Bristol 3 Leyhill 13 Brixton 2 Lincoln 5 Bronzefield 0 Lindholme 1 Buckley Hall 0 Littlehey 32 Bullingdon 6 Liverpool 4 Bullwood Hall 0 Long Lartin 1 Camp Hill 1 Low Newton 0 Canterbury 1 Lowdham Grange 0 Cardiff 2 Maidstone 14 Castington 0 Manchester 16 Channings Wood 7 Moorland Closed 0 Chelmsford 3 Moorland Open 0 Coldingley 0 Morton Hall 1 Cookham Wood 0 New Hall 0 Dartmoor 17 North Sea Camp 1 Deerbolt 0 Northallerton 0 Doncaster 5 Norwich 17 Dorchester 1 Nottingham 3 Dovegate 6 Onley 0 Dover 0 Pare 6 Downview 1 Parkhurst 8 Drake Hall 1 Pentonville 0 Durham 3 Peterborough 7 East Sutton Park 0 Portland 0 Eastwood Park 0 Preston 2 Edmunds Hill 1 Ranby 0 Elmley 5 Reading 0 Erlestoke 3 Risley 7 Everthorpe 1 Rochester 0 Exeter 6 Rye Hill 2 Featherstone 1 Send 1 Feltham 0 Shepton Mallet 4 Ford 4 Shrewsbury 2 Forest Bank 3 Stafford 5 Foston Hall 0 Standford Hill 2 Frankland 8 Stocken 0 Full Sutton 13 Stoke Heath 0 Garth 4 Styal 0 Gartree 3 Sudbury 1 Glen Parva 0 Swaleside 3 Gloucester 3 1 Grendon/Spring Hill 2 Swinfen Hall 0 Guys Marsh 2 The Mount 1 Haslar 0 The Verne 0 Haverigg 1 The Wolds 0 Hewell 3 Thom Cross 0 High Down 4 Usk/Prescoed 11 Highpoint 2 Wakefield 19 Hindley 0 Wandsworth 20 Hollesley Bay 1 Warren Hill 0 Holloway 1 Warrington 0 Holme House 2 Wayland 3 Hull 20 Wealstun 0 Huntercombe 0 Wellingborough 2 Kennet 0 Wetherby 0 Kingston (Portsmouth) 4 Whatton 44 Kirkham 0 Whitemoor 1 Kirklevington Grange 0 Winchester 5 Lancaster Castle 1 Woodhill 2 Lancaster Farms 0 Wormwood Scrubs 7 Latchmere House 2 Wymott 21 Leeds 7 Total 525 923W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 924W

Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Number how many prisoners convicted of each category of offence are aged over 70. [281578] Other offences 23

Maria Eagle: The following table gives the number of All offences 489 sentenced prisoners aged 70 and over in prison These figures have been drawn from administrative establishments in England and Wales by offence group, IT systems which, as with any large scale recording as at 30 April 2009: system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Number

Violence against the person 84 Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Sexual offences 346 how many people aged 70 years and over were Robbery 4 sentenced to immediate custody on conviction for each Theft and handling 3 category of offence in each of the last 10 years for Fraud and forgery 7 which figures are available. [281580] Drug offences 22 Motoring offences 1 Claire Ward: The requested information is shown in the following table.

Number sentenced to immediate custody by offence type, for those aged 70 and over 1997-2007 Offence type 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2006 2008 2007

Violence against the 8 5 10 11 8 11 10 7 7 7 10 person Sexual Offences 49 64 43 62 72 67 60 82 85 88 81 Burglary 21321030021 Robbery 00000100003 Theft and handling 9 8 11 8 15 4 10 7 10 6 4 stolen goods Fraud and forgery 24555664447 Criminal Damage 11001110023 Drug Offences 55283436397 Other (excluding 3547256121286 motoring offences) Indictable Motoring 00000001100 Summary non- 12124566121491413 motoring Summary motoring 3 14 7 18 5 7 11 8 10 11 12 Total 94 119 89 126 118 112 122 141 141 161 147 Notes: 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. 2. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. Source: OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice

The data shows the number of offenders aged 70 and Prisoners: Offender Assessment System over sentenced to immediate custody for each offence type, in the last 10 years. This data is presented on the principal offence basis, where an offender has been Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice sentenced for more than one offence the principal offence (1) how many prisoners aged over 70 have been is the one for which the heaviest sentence was imposed. assessed under OASys as (a) high risk and (b) very Where the same sentence has been imposed for two or high risk; [281577] more offences the principal offence is the one for which (2) how many prisoners aged over 70 held in closed the statutory maximum is most severe. prisons have been assessed as suitable for open prison conditions. [281579] Prisoners Release: Reoffenders

Mr. Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Maria Eagle: During the period 1 April 2008 until pursuant to the answer of 20 April 2009, Official 31 March 2009, 42 prisoners aged over 70 were assessed Report, column 346, on prisoners release: re-offenders, as presenting a high or very high risk of serious harm. when he expects to have re-offending data in respect of The assessment of risk of serious harm was made offenders who are subject to a home detention curfew. through the Offender Assessment System (OASys). The OASys data are drawn from administrative IT systems [280017] and are subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any Mr. Straw: I apologise to the hon. Member that the large-scale assessment and recording system. audit process has taken longer than anticipated. The The information regarding suitability for open prisons data will be available before summer recess, when I will could be obtained only at disproportionate cost as it write to the hon. Member, placing a copy of the reply in would involve contacting every prison which would the Library. then have to consult the records of individual prisoners. 925W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 926W

There has been no relaxation of security categorisation These figures have been drawn from administrative standards and public protection remains paramount IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording when undertaking the categorisation process. system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Prisons: West Lancashire The total number of full time equivalent staff employed by the Probation Service as at 31 March from 2005 to Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 (latest figures available) are shown in the following Justice pursuant to the Answer of 1 June 2009, Official table: Report, columns 82-3W, on prisons: construction, by Probation—staff in post figures by region, England and Wales what process (a) the National Offender Management 2005-07 Service and (b) his Department were made aware of 2005 2006 2007 the potential site for a Titan prison at Scarisbrick; which location in Scarisbrick was identified as a North West 3,213.91 3,347.94 3,248.13 potential site; what information his Department holds North East 1,295.39 1,274.82 1,298.12 on the present owner of the site; on what date his Yorkshire and 2,364.80 2,383.72 2,386.52 Department designated the site at Scarisbrick as a Humberside potential location for a Titan prison; and by whom that East Midlands 1,765.08 1,886.72 1,896.72 decision was taken. [281771] Wales 1,184.35 1,300.77 1,336.53 West Midlands 2,253.68 2,397.66 2,409.70 Mr. Straw: In early 2008, the National Offender East of England 1,549.66 1,675.65 1,690.03 Management Service (NOMS) commissioned site search South West 1,507.73 1,626.15 1,628.38 agents to identify potential sites for “Titan” prisons in South East 2,243.49 2,408.70 2,440.76 various parts of the country, including the North West. London 2,377.27 2,759.33 2,868.77 Among the sites identified in the North-West was a Total 19,755.36 21,061.45 21,203.66 200 acre golf course at Southport Road, Scarisbrick, Notes: L40 8HB. This site was identified on 13 May 2008 by 1. Figures provided are full time equivalent (FTE) and are as at 31 our site search agents but was considered unsuitable by March for each year. them, an assessment that was subsequently endorsed by 2. Information for 2008 is currently unavailable. NOMS on 16 May 2008. The reason for this was that a golf course in a rural location did not meet the specific requirement for a site close to an urban conurbation with good transport links. Probation We do not hold information on the current owners of the site as it was rejected at a very early stage of the Peter Luff: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice assessment process. what recent assessment he has made of the implications for the West Mercia Probation Trust of the proposed Probation merger of the Staffordshire and West Midlands trusts; whether it is his policy to organise the Probation Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Service on a regional basis; and if he will make a how many cases the Probation Service handled in each statement. [281312] region in each of the last three years; and how many staff were employed by the Probation Service in each Mr. Straw: I am aware of the proposed merger of the region in each such year. [280835] Staffordshire and West Midlands probation areas. A first application is anticipated in July for Trust status, Mr. Straw: The total caseload of offenders supervised subject to further endorsement by the two separate by the Probation Service in each region of England and boards. Wales as at 31 December in each of the last three years was as follows: I have made it clear that any proposals on future trust configurations should come from local areas and not be 2006 2007 2008 prescribed either regionally or nationally. Already within the West Midlands region, and on a national basis, North East 12,906 13,872 14,122 areas with smaller budgets than West Mercia have applied North West 39,361 39,657 37,907 for and achieved Trust status. Yorkshire and 24,208 24,698 25,262 Humberside The West Mercia Probation Trust is a first wave trust East Midlands 17,422 17,787 17,829 but it is required to be reassessed in accordance with the West Midlands 28,361 29,255 27,844 new national requirements. It has made one unsuccessful application under the new arrangements and is intending Eastern 18,833 19,967 20,194 to resubmit in November 2009. Once all areas in the London 41,338 41,998 43,811 West Midlands region have achieved trust status, whether South East 28,041 27,145 27,291 in their present or merger form, they will be expected to South West 13,919 14,536 14,839 work collaboratively as required to achieve best value in Wales 13,169 13,807 14,335 the delivery of their statutory duties. The 2008 figures are provisional and were published The Director of Offender Management’s office in the on 30 April 2009 in the Ministry of Justice statistics West Midlands is currently supporting the efforts of bulletin Probation statistics quarterly brief October to West Mercia Probation Trust to assist them in achieving December 2008, England and Wales. re-alignment with second wave Trust status. 927W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 928W

Probation: Databases Table 2: Total number of offenders starting supervision in North Yorkshire as at 31 March in each of the last five years Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Number how many records are held on the (a) Delius, (b) 2007 2,211 CRAMS and (c) other Probation Service IT case 2008 2,274 management systems. [280237] Table 3: Total number of court reports written in the North Yorkshire Mr. Straw: The Ministry of Justice’s Offender probation area between the years 2006 and 2008 Management and Sentencing Analytical Service has Number indicated that, on average, the breakdown between types 2006 4,355 of case management systems is 112,000 (40 per cent.) of offender records held in Delius, 98,000 (35 per cent.) 2007 4,124 held in CRAMS and 70,000 (25 per cent.) held in other 2008 4,053 systems (ICMS, In Case and IIMS). Before 2006, the number of court reports written in Probation: North Yorkshire North Yorkshire is not centrally available. These figures have been drawn from administrative Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording Justice how many people from North Yorkshire were system, are subject to possible errors with data entry (a) convicted of an offence and (b) referred to the and processing. Probation Service for (i) reports and (ii) supervision in each of the last five years. [277054] Probation: South Yorkshire Maria Eagle: The number of persons found guilty at all courts for all Mr. MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what funding his Department has allocated to offences in the North Yorkshire Police Force Area, for South Yorkshire Probation Service in each year since the years 2003 to 2007 (latest available) is given in 2001; and if he will make a statement. [281722] table 1. These data are on the principal offence basis. When a Maria Eagle: The resource budget allocations for the defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences, South Yorkshire probation area since 2001 are given in the offence selected is the one for which the heaviest the table. penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed As a result of changes to the budget allocation for two or more offences, the offence selected is the methodology, plus Machinery of Government changes offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the and accounting methodology changes, it is difficult to most severe. compare figures over a long period. Court proceedings data for 2008 will be available in the autumn of 2009. South Yorkshire probation area budgets 2001-02 to 2008-09 Area: South Yorkshire Table 1: The number of persons found guilty at all courts for all Revenue (£000) offences in North Yorkshire Police Force Area, 2003-071,2 Found guilty 2008-09 25,511 2007-08 24,282 2003 13,652 2006-07 24,058 2004 14,933 2005-06 23,041 2005 14,572 2004-05 20,858 2006 12,764 2003-04 20,381 2007 14,974 2002-03 18,191 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant 2001-02 16,153 has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is Mr. MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty Is the most Justice what the rate of (a) absence and (b) absence severe. resulting from ill-health was among South Yorkshire 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate Probation Service staff in 2008-09; what estimate he and complete. However, it Is important to note that these data have has made of the cost to the public purse of such been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken absences; and if he will make a statement. [281723] to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken Into account when those data are used. Maria Eagle: The combined rate of all types of Source: absence is not collected however the rate of absence Evidence and Analysis Unit - Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Ministry of Justice resulting from ill-health (i.e. sickness absence) for South Yorkshire Probation Service staff in 2008-09 was 14.3 Table 2: Total number of offenders starting supervision in North days per person. The total cost of sickness absence for Yorkshire as at 31 March in each of the last five years South Yorkshire Probation Service, including on costs, Number for 2008-09 was £1,026,760. In order to address this 2004 2,099 South Yorkshire Probation Service have launched a 2005 2,296 sickness absence action plan which has made a significant 2006 2,311 impact on the incidence of sickness absence. Current levels of sickness absence are 8.2 days per employee. 929W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 930W

Pupils: Absenteeism YouthJustice Board from administrative computer systems. Table A shows the number of remands to (prison) Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice custody in each of the last five years and table B shows how many parents in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point the number of remands to local authority care with a have appeared in court on charges related to the security requirement in each of the last five years. unauthorised absence from school of their child in the Statistics are available only by Youth Offending Team last (i) six, (ii) 12 and (iii) 24 months. [281319] (YOT) area. Where the YOT covers more than one local authority area (as in Wessex, for example) it is not Mr. Coaker: I have been asked to reply possible to indicate the young person’s home local authority. The Department has policy responsibility for school Table A: Remand in custody episodes attendance. However, the Ministry of Justice collects Youth offending and publishes data for England and Wales on prosecutions team 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 brought against parents under the Education Act 1996 Barking and 41 30 46 23 31 for the offence under s444(1) of failing to secure their Dagenham child’s regular attendance at school; and for prosecutions Barnet 30 19 34 37 27 under s444(1A), the aggravated offence of knowing that Barnsley 28 23 16 16 11 their child is failing to attend school regularly. It is Bath and North 12 9 11 12 11 possible, because of the way courts record data, that East Somerset some section 444 data is also collected under the more Bedfordshire 36 32 17 23 32 general heading of various offences under the Education Bexley 11 8 10 15 10 Act 1996. Birmingham 249 215 244 176 144 The Ministry of Justice collects prosecution data on Blackburn with 24 17 14 16 13 the basis of police force areas only and not constituency Darwen area. Information on the number of parents prosecuted Blackpool 21 20 21 26 30 in Essex for failing to secure their children’s regular Blaenau, Gwent 17 8 31 9 9 school attendance between 2006 to 2007 (latest available and Caerphilly data) is detailed in the table below. Court proceedings Bolton 32 45 36 34 37 data for 2008 will be available in the autumn of 2009. Bournemouth and 24 28 16 13 8 Poole Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates’ courts for Bracknell Forest 3 7 9 10 12 offences under the Education Act 1996 S.4441, in Essex police force area, 2006 to 20072,3 Bradford 63 58 52 68 76 Number Brent 30 33 42 44 58 15 15 11 13 12 2006 86 Brighton and Hove 16 15 18 26 13 2007 74 Bristol 53 35 55 61 76 1 Includes the following: Bromley 10 13 21 26 12 (a) Failure to secure regular attendance at school. (Education Act 1996 S.444 (1)(8)). Buckinghamshire 15 7 12 5 10 (b) Parent knows that their child is failing to attend school regularly Bury 13 8 15 15 9 and fails without reasonable justification to cause him or her to Calderdale 26 19 7 24 24 attend school. (Education Act 1996 S.444(8)(1a)(8a) added by Criminal Cambridgeshire 24 28 24 14 20 Justice and Court Services Act 2000 S.72). 2 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the Camden 12 21 27 20 21 principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant Cardiff 71 78 56 65 45 has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is Carmarthenshire 10 14 23 13 18 the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same Ceredigion1 n/a n/a 4 7 1 disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most Cheshire 44 32 41 47 51 severe. Conwy and 16 11 23 18 21 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate Denbighshire and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have Cornwall 8 17 20 29 17 been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by Coventry 65 64 48 38 32 the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are Croydon 48 47 51 57 51 taken into account when those data are used. Cumbria 36 21 40 42 41 Source: Darlington 13 8 9 8 4 Evidence and Analysis Unit - Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Derby 38 47 29 33 39 Ministry of Justice Derbyshire 30 41 29 17 23 Remand in Custody: Children Devon 18 21 26 15 16 Doncaster 26 36 38 38 24 Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Dorset 6 15 4 10 5 how many children have been remanded in custody in Dudley 47 23 21 21 14 each local authority area in each of the last five years. Durham 29 34 18 19 23 [281503] Ealing 17 21 50 68 58 East Riding of 251299 Maria Eagle: The decision whether to grant bail or to Yorkshire remand a young person to the care of a local authority East Sussex 18 25 18 28 22 or to custody is a matter for the courts, which apply the Enfield 20 41 53 55 37 statutory framework principally set out in the Bail Act Essex 53 57 57 60 36 1976. The data in the tables have been supplied by the 931W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 932W

Table A: Remand in custody episodes Table A: Remand in custody episodes Youth offending Youth offending team 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 team 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Flintshire 20 9 15 7 3 Pembrokeshire 1 2 6 2 11 Gateshead 17 12 15 18 12 Peterborough 31 25 20 28 26 Gloucestershire 34 44 45 31 31 Plymouth 23 16 19 34 17 Greenwich 33 31 33 30 48 Powys1 12 421 Gwynedd Mon 18 18 10 9 12 Reading3 23 24 22 14 20 Hackney 51 57 57 75 69 Redbridge 28 24 40 41 27 Halton and 23 31 22 23 17 Rhondda Cynon 25 22 15 7 22 Warrington Taff Hammersmith and 15 36 31 35 20 Richmond-upon- 55 342 Fulham Thames Haringey 57 50 55 58 50 Rochdale 38 38 25 19 34 Harrow 4 9 24 17 12 Rotherham 25 31 22 19 20 Hartlepool 4 6 11 8 16 Salford 49 65 48 47 35 Havering 1 7 20 20 24 Sandwell 73 70 49 40 24 Hertfordshire 63 47 56 36 41 Sefton 9 18 30 15 29 Hillingdon 27 26 20 34 23 Sheffield 59 45 50 61 76 Hounslow 40 23 30 20 34 Shropshire, Telford 15 14 14 14 21 Islington 31 38 40 50 49 and Wrekin Kensington and 22 10 10 21 19 Slough 9 10 15 19 15 Chelsea Solihull 14 19 12 11 15 Kent 72 71 85 51 80 Somerset 19 22 16 15 17 Kingston-upon- 61 65 68 83 49 South 39 855 Hull Gloucestershire Kingston-upon- 1 6 12 8 11 South Tees 38 38 43 29 35 Thames South Tyneside 38 19 11 14 14 Kirklees 42 42 34 25 25 Southend-on-Sea 12 10 14 15 9 Knowsley 29 17 16 20 18 Southwark 48 61 65 61 68 Lambeth 42 56 79 77 83 St. Helens 17 11 7 4 6 Lancashire 74 97 91 89 68 Staffordshire 34 38 27 14 20 Leeds 177 119 120 89 87 Stockport 23 22 29 15 16 Leicester City 64 64 47 40 34 Stockton-on-Tees 10 9 14 8 8 Leicestershire 48 28 31 22 24 Stoke-on-Trent 36 38 34 28 23 Lewisham 46 45 55 36 45 Suffolk 31 37 18 19 30 Lincolnshire 32 17 26 26 14 Sunderland 35 36 26 36 14 Liverpool 96 89 71 65 64 Surrey 27 31 37 32 19 Luton 35 27 22 15 15 Sutton 11 18 11 8 13 Manchester 186 182 186 140 130 Swansea 34 29 27 15 17 Medway 15 13 12 24 29 Swindon 14 17 8 10 9 Merthyr Tydfil 7 10 17 14 8 Tameside 30 29 45 27 25 Merton 12 16 18 15 16 Thurrock 23 6 22 19 25 Milton Keynes 9 23 21 20 17 Torbay 4 3 3 9 5 Miscellaneous2 15 5 4 5 1 Tower Hamlets and 18 36 46 45 44 Monmouthshire 48 381City of London and Torfaen Trafford 36 39 31 31 23 Neath Port Talbot 8 18 19 13 6 Vale of Glamorgan 9 14 5 6 8 Newcastle-upon- 37 40 30 35 30 Tyne Wakefield 29 36 19 27 21 Newham 86 62 58 76 74 Walsall 23 30 29 27 21 Newport 30 44 23 14 12 Waltham Forest 30 32 38 38 32 Norfolk 31 26 17 23 19 Wandsworth 19 26 33 62 41 North East 31 33 25 16 24 Warwickshire 18 24 31 28 10 Lincolnshire Wessex 135 104 120 128 151 North Lincolnshire 22 12 27 20 18 West Berkshire 1 5 7 4 5 North Somerset 10 4 2 3 9 West Sussex 50 55 43 52 53 North Tyneside 37 18 18 30 18 Westminster 24 23 17 23 21 North Yorkshire 13 18 16 21 19 Wigan 29 23 28 18 19 Northamptonshire 59 47 34 64 37 Wiltshire 17 18 12 6 8 Northumberland 28 22 24 34 22 Windsor and 10 7 1 2 3 Nottingham 97 63 101 72 82 Maidenhead Nottinghamshire 33 29 31 31 22 Wirral 44 26 17 33 17 Oldham 31 24 46 37 32 Wokingham3 n/a n/a 0 4 6 Oxfordshire 30 37 33 36 34 Wolverhampton 33 36 30 24 16 933W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 934W

Table A: Remand in custody episodes Table B: Court ordered secure remand episodes Youth offending Youth offending team 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 team 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Worcestershire and 70 55 34 23 30 Gateshead 3 3 5 5 6 Herefordshire Gloucestershire 8 10 7 0 2 Wrexham 0 0 2 17 18 Greenwich 7 6 1 5 7 York 25 26 24 22 32 Gwynedd Mon 0 1 0 1 0 Total 5,065 4,850 4,901 4,692 4,402 Hackney 6 6 3 6 9 Halton and 21 424 Table B: Court ordered secure remand episodes Warrington Youth offending Hammersmith and 41 3135 team 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Fulham Barking and 63 242Haringey 5 1 6 5 6 Dagenham Harrow 1 4 3 4 2 Barnet 3 3 7 2 2 Hartlepool 0 1 1 2 2 Barnsley 1 0 2 1 1 Havering 2 2 0 3 0 Bath and North 00 121Hertfordshire 1 5 7 5 8 East Somerset Hillingdon 0 4 2 3 5 Bedfordshire 1 2 0 1 0 Hounslow 3 3 1 1 3 Bexley 2 6 1 0 1 Islington 3 2 8 9 10 Birmingham 34 29 28 26 16 Kensington and 11 311 Blackburn with 40 222Chelsea Darwen Kent 9 2 8 5 12 Blackpool 2 3 0 5 4 Kingston-upon- 11 8 8 9 9 Blaenau, Gwent 12 151Hull and Caerphilly Kinston-upon- 10 002 Bolton 3 9 5 8 3 Thames Bournemouth and 34 110Kirklees 11 2 0 0 4 Poole Knowsley 0 1 3 1 1 Bracknell Forest 0 0 2 0 0 Lambeth 7 10 13 10 8 Bradford 6 9 4 12 4 Lancashire 10 9 7 7 10 Brent 7 1 5 5 12 Leeds 36 7 5 12 11 Bridgend 1 1 0 0 2 Leicester City 10 4 3 3 5 Brighton and Hove 3 3 2 5 6 Leicestershire 3 1 3 2 2 Bristol 5 7 10 12 8 Lewisham 4 8 7 5 12 Bromley 3 5 5 0 6 Lincolnshire 2 2 0 2 0 Buckinghamshire 2 0 0 0 1 Liverpool 7 14 3 7 11 Bury 0 0 4 0 2 Luton 2 2 0 0 1 Calderdale 3 3 5 0 1 Manchester 24 33 42 40 16 Cambridgeshire 0 0 2 1 1 Medway 2 3 2 3 3 Camden 3 2 1 7 2 Merthyr Tydfil 2 1 1 0 2 Cardiff 7 3 5 10 1 Merton 2 1 0 0 4 Carmarthenshire 3 1 0 1 0 Milton Keynes 0 1 0 0 4 Ceredigion1 n/a n/a 0 0 0 Miscellaneous2 00 000 Cheshire 8 9 5 4 2 Monmouthshire 11 111 Conwy and 15 320and Torfaen Denbighshire Neath Port Talbot 2 1 0 5 4 Cornwall 1 3 0 0 1 Newcastle-upon- 0105 55 Coventry 7 7 5 1 3 Tyne Croydon 2 4 8 6 3 Newham 9 11 11 11 10 Cumbria 6 4 2 5 4 Newport 3 3 4 0 2 Darlington 0 0 0 1 0 Norfolk 1 1 3 2 5 Derby 12 9 7 2 8 North East 85 455 Derbyshire 2 6 4 3 1 Lincolnshire Devon 2 3 4 0 4 North Lincolnshire 10 3 14 4 3 Doncaster 3 5 6 2 0 North Somerset 0 1 1 1 2 Dorset 0 0 0 0 0 North Tyneside 2 11 2 3 2 Dudley 5 3 3 1 0 North Yorkshire 0 4 0 0 2 Durham 3 4 2 2 4 Northamptonshire 11 4 4 7 11 Ealing 2 2 5 10 4 Northumberland 3 3 4 1 1 East Riding of 00 220 Yorkshire Nottingham 14 8 18 14 12 East Sussex 4 4 12 5 0 Nottinghamshire 1 2 3 4 9 Enfield 3 4 6 1 3 Oldham 2 4 9 7 7 Essex 4 3 10 7 3 Oxfordshire 5 7 7 9 8 Flintshire 0 0 0 0 0 Pembrokeshire 0 0 0 0 0 935W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 936W

Table B: Court ordered secure remand episodes Table B: Court ordered secure remand episodes Youth offending Youth offending team 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 team 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Peterborough 2 9 6 5 0 Wrexham 0 0 0 1 3 Plymouth 3 2 1 7 3 Yo rk 3 1 6 0 1 Powys1 00 000Total 588 604 610 578 610 Reading3 10 0061 Powys and Ceredigion was a combined YOT prior to April 2005. Redbridge 3 8 7 2 3 Earlier figures under “Powys” refer to Powys and Ceredigion. 2 Young people whose YOT has not been identified. Rhondda Cynon 20 030 3 Reading and Wokingham was a combined YOT prior to April Taff 2007. Earlier figures under “Reading” refer to Reading and Richmond-upon- 22 111Wokingham. Thames Rochdale 3 4 3 5 9 Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Rotherham 2 0 0 0 3 what the average length of time is for which children Salford 10 13 6 4 6 were held on remand in custody in the last 12 months. Sandwell 14 5 10 3 1 [281504] Sefton 0 2 2 3 0 Sheffield 9 12 17 11 17 Maria Eagle: The Government believe that young Shropshire, Telford 31 001people should only be sent to custody as a last resort. and Wrekin Young people aged 12-16 may be remanded to the care Slough 0 1 1 0 0 of a local authority with a requirement that they be Solihull 0 2 4 0 6 accommodated in secure conditions. Boys aged 15 and Somerset 1 4 3 0 2 16 may be remanded to (prison) custody (in practice, a South 01 002young offender institution) in certain circumstances. Gloucestershire Young people aged 17 are treated, in legal terms, as South Tees 1 5 4 6 9 adults, and may not be remanded to local authority South Tyneside 6 2 3 3 0 care. (Again, they would be placed in an under-18 Southend-on-Sea 1 1 3 2 3 young offender institution.) Between 1 May 2008 and Southwark 4 2 11 6 14 30 April 2009, the average length of a remand in custody St. Helens 1 0 0 1 3 episode was 40 days and the average length of a remand Staffordshire 4 4 1 0 0 to the care of a local authority with a security requirement Stockport 4 2 4 2 1 was47days. Stockton-on-Tees 0 1 2 0 1 Stoke-on-Trent 6 6 11 5 6 Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Suffolk 1 7 2 0 3 how many children who were held on remand in Sunderland 1 4 3 3 3 custody in the last 12 months were aged (a) 10 or 11 Surrey 1 6 0 1 4 years, (b) 12 or 13 years, (c) 13 or 14 years, (d) 15 or Sutton 0 1 1 0 3 16 years and (e) 17 or 18 years. [281505] Swansea 1 2 1 4 3 Swindon 0 1 2 1 2 Maria Eagle: The information in the following tables Tameside 5 10 5 2 0 covers the period 1 May 2008 to 30 April 2009. It has been supplied by the Youth Justice Board from Thurrock 1 1 0 0 1 administrative systems. Section 23 of the Children and Torbay 0 0 2 0 1 Young Persons Act 1969 empowers a court to remand a Tower Hamlets and 61 316 City of London young person aged 12 to 16 to the care of a local authority, with a requirement that he or she is kept in Trafford 7 10 15 11 7 secure accommodation. In certain circumstances, 15 and Vale of Glamorgan 0 0 0 1 3 16-year-old boys may be remanded to prison custody. Wakefield 1 5 1 6 2 In legal terms, 17-year-olds are treated as adults for Walsall 0 1 2 4 0 remand purposes, but would be accommodated in an Waltham Forest 6 2 4 5 7 under-18 young offender institution. 18-year-olds are Wandsworth 9 4 5 5 7 accommodated in the young adult estate: the Youth Warwickshire 2 7 1 4 5 Justice Board does not collect data in respect of them. Wessex 15 10 10 19 28 The data in the tables cover each remand “episode”; West Berkshire 1 0 0 3 0 some young people may have been remanded more than West Sussex 4 8 6 5 2 once during the period. Westminster 0 3 1 0 4 Young people aged 12 to 16 remanded to local authority Wigan 0 6 0 1 1 accommodation with a security requirement, 1 May 2008 to Wiltshire 1 0 1 1 0 30 April 2009 Windsor and 00 000Age Number Maidenhead 12 13 Wirral 6 5 5 13 7 13 75 3 Wokingham n/a n/a 0 2 2 14 251 Wolverhampton 3 5 2 0 7 15 158 Worcestershire and 35 42616 141 Herefordshire 937W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 938W

Young people aged 12 to 16 remanded to local authority Jim Fitzpatrick: The Bovine TB Eradication Group accommodation with a security requirement, 1 May 2008 to for England has had 13 meetings since it was established 30 April 2009 in November 2008. The group’s highlight notes are Age Number published shortly after every meeting and these are Total 638 available on the DEFRA website. The group has considered representations from a Boys aged 15, 16 and 17 remanded in custody, 1 May 2008 to number of organisations or individuals and, where 30 April 2009 appropriate, invited them to a meeting to discuss further. Age Number of remand episodes The group will continue to invite other experts to contribute to its work as necessary. In addition DEFRA has set up 15 488 a mailbox so that members of the public, industry 16 1,075 bodies and wider interest groups can make enquiries 17 2,688 and put forward views. Total 4,251 Bovine Tuberculosis: Vaccination Young Offenders Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Food and Rural Affairs what progress his Department how many children were overseen by each Youth has made in identifying pilot sites for the roll-out of Offending Team in the most recent year for which data badger bovine tuberculosis vaccines. [281357] is available. [276848] Jim Fitzpatrick: The Badger Vaccine Deployment Mr. Straw: The information for each youth offending areas have been chosen based on specific criteria, which team is not collected centrally. Youth offending teams included a historically high incidence of bovine TB in oversee young offenders who receive an out-of-court cattle, and in liaison with the Bovine TB Eradication disposal, such as a Final Warning from the police (but, Group for England and other key industry and stakeholder not usually those who receive a police reprimand); groups. 2 appear in court; receive a community sentence; and Six catchment areas of 300 km were identified, drawn come out of custody. from the worst affected areas of Staffordshire (Eccleshall area), Herefordshire and Worcestershire border (North of Bromyard, East of Tenbury Wells), Gloucestershire (Cotswolds, North-east of Cheltenham and North West ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS of Stroud, towards the Severn Valley) and Devon (East and West of Tiverton). Bees: Research Meetings are being held with key regional representatives and, separately, veterinary practices in each area and Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFRA, with Fera, will be working with local people Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he and looking for participants within these regions to has made of the funding required by the National Bee define up to 100 km2 to be vaccinated. Regional meetings Unit from his Department to maintain its programme will be held with farmers in the autumn, with participants of research into honey bee health at 2008-09 levels in sign-up shortly thereafter. each of the next five years; and if he will make a statement. [278853] Centre for Environment Fisheries and Aquaculture Science: Consultants Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA commissioned approximately £200,000 of research from The Food and Environment Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Agency’s National Bee Unit (NBU) in 2008-09. DEFRA Food and Rural Affairs how much the Centre for is contributing £2.5 million over the next five years to Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Research spent the insect pollinator initiative announced on 21 April on external consultants in each of the last five years. under which up to £10 million will be available from a [280596] number of different funders. The initiative is being developed under the Living with Environmental Change Dan Norris: CEFAS expenditure on management programme and the NBU will be eligible to bid for consultancy is outlined in the following table: funds. Decisions on what projects will be funded will be made by the Initiative’s funders on the basis of whether £ they fulfil the eligibility criteria, address the issues outlined 2004-05 5,549 in the research call and on the basis of their quality. 2005-06 38,251 There is also a limited budget available to fund projects 2006-07 161,738 at the NBU to address urgent bee health needs. 2007-08 57,803 Bovine TB Eradication Group 2008-09 72,422 This expenditure covers specialist external consultancy Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, for the primary purpose of providing advice to CEFAS Food and Rural Affairs how many meetings the bovine management. Examples include: tuberculosis eradication panel has had; if he will publish £132,000 spread across 2005-06 and 2006-07 in supporting a the (a) agenda and (b) minutes of each meeting; and response to the DEFRA Laboratory Strategy Programme what opportunities there have been for members of the Typically £50,000 specialist support for major procurement public to make representations to the panel. [281358] exercises each year from 2006/07 onwards 939W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 940W

£30,000 to date for developing our safety and quality management Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) systems. Regulations 2007 The table excludes temporary staff and contractors providing specialised skills and experience under our Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for supervision and guidance. It also excludes technical and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his scientific consultancy that CEFAS draws on to augment Department plans to amend the Environmental permitting its in-house expertise. (England and Wales) Regulations 2007, Schedule 1, CEFAS also forms part of a public sector partnership Part 2, section 1:1 in the light of the Court of Appeal with local authorities to develop new office and laboratory ruling in the 2007 OSS Group v Environment Agency facilities, for completion in 2011. CEFAS has committed case; and if he will make a statement. [281488] costs within the partnership of : 2006-07 £549,658, 2007-08 £983,668 and 2008-09 £305,829 to cover design Dan Norris: With the aim of fulfilling the appeal and development of this scheme. court’s judgment in the OSS case, the Environment Agency carried out a public consultation on an end-of-waste Dairy Farming protocol for: “the production and use of processed fuel oil from waste lubricating Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for oil”. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will request On conclusion of the Agency’s consideration of the the supermarkets to assist in dealing with the consequences responses to that consultation, DEFRA will submit a of the failure of dairy farmers of Great Britain. [281924] post-consultation draft of the protocol to the European Commission, and other member states, in compliance Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 23 June 2009]: This with the Technical Standards Directive (98/34/EC). is a commercial issue, and we have not specifically asked However, DEFRA has no plans to amend the supermarkets to assist with the consequences of the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations closure of dairy farmers of Britain. 2007 in the light of the court’s judgment in the OSS We have asked banks and others directly involved to case. be sympathetic in their dealings with those farms and businesses affected by the collapse. Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate his Departmental Research Department has made of the effects on levels of exports of used cooking oil to other EU members states of the Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for provisions of the Environmental Permitting (England Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much funding and Wales) Regulations 2007, Schedule 1, Part 2, Section his Department allocated for research and development 1:1; and if he will make a statement. [281825] in each year since 1997. [279906] Dan Norris: This threshold was contained in predecessor Dan Norris [holding answer 15 June 2009]: DEFRA Regulations dating back to the last decade. No assessment spent the following amounts on research and development: of its impact specifically on the exports of used cooking oil has been carried out. DEFRA has no plans to £ million change the threshold.

2002-03 131 2003-04 147 Food 2004-05 153 2005-06 156 Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 146 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what percentage 2007-08 138 of (a) beef, (b) pork and (c) lamb consumed in the 2008-09 130 UK was produced domestically in each year since 1997. 2009-10 130 [281891] 2010-11 1130 1 Planned expenditure Jim Fitzpatrick: Estimates of the percentage of beef Notes: and veal, pig meat and mutton and lamb consumed 1. These figures were taken from data available through DEFRA’s which were produced domestically in each year since Science Information DEFRA was formed in 2001 through the merging 1997 are provided in the table. Figures for 2009 are not of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (MAFF) with part yet available. The figures provided are based on volumes of the Department of Environment, Transport and the Regions (DETR). Consequently, comparable figures are only available from of production and trade. The figures are affected by 2002 onwards. market conditions in the UK and abroad. Factors affecting 2. From 2008, responsibility for work on mitigating climate change market conditions include exchange rates, animal disease was transferred to the Department of Energy and Climate Change and consumer demand. When interpreting the figures it (DECC). Figures from 2008-9 onwards reflect this change. is important to look at the trends over time, rather than 3. These figures relate to Research and Development directly managed concentrating on figures for individual years. by DEFRA. Other Government Departments and publicly funded bodies, such as the Research Councils, also fund research which has For beef and veal and mutton and lamb the percentage policy relevance to DEFRA. For instance DEFRA is a leading has been relatively stable over the whole period. For pig participant in the Living With Environmental Change programme meat the percentage declined from over 60 per cent. in which aims to fund £1 billion of research between 2007-12 to provide the UK’s decision makers with the best information to manage and 1997 to just over 40 per cent. in 2003 due to declining protect vital ecosystem services in the most effective and practical domestic production and increased imports, but has ways. also been fairly stable since then. 941W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 942W

Estimate of the percentage consumed from domestic production health or the environment. Any establishment or Percentage undertaking carrying out waste recovery or disposal in Mutton and England and Wales is required to obtain a permit from Beef and veal Pig meat lamb the Environment Agency. 1997 76 63 58 The Environment Agency is required to exercise its 1998 82 63 63 functions for the purpose of ensuring the principal 1999 78 61 65 objective is met and may not grant a permit where it 2000 78 53 66 considers there to be an unacceptable risk to the 2001 71 55 67 environment or human health. The Agency may only 2002 70 50 66 grant a permit where relevant planning permission is in place and may impose requirements in permits that 2003 69 43 62 relate to the preparation, operation, monitoring and 2004 69 41 62 control procedures as well as the closure and after-care 2005 72 40 65 of a landfill. The Environment Agency has a duty to 2006 75 39 63 take action to reduce any negative impacts that are a 2007 74 40 65 direct result of a permitted activity. The Environment 2008 72 41 63 Agency’s criteria apply both inside and outside the site. Source: Agriculture in the United Kingdom 2008, DEFRA Oil: Waste Disposal Genetically Modified Organisms: Crops Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what regulations Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for govern the combustion of (a) diesel and (b) used Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will publish cooking oil that has been classified as being end-of- the scientific advice commissioned by his Department waste; and if he will make a statement. [281362] on the cultivation of genetically-modified in maize and sweetcorn; and what consideration he has given to the Dan Norris: The relevant thresholds are given in implications for his policy on such cultivation of the schedule 1, part 2, of the Environmental Permitting provisions of the Environmental Liability Directive. (England and Wales) Regulations 2007 and are as follows: [281971] (a) Diesel Section 1.1 part A(1) (a) 50 MW. Dan Norris: We receive advice on applications for European Union (EU) approval to cultivate GM crops (b) Used cooking oil that has been classified as non-waste from the Advisory Committee on Releases to the Section 1.1 part A(1) (a) 50 MW. Environment (ACRE). Its advice on the safety of two Section 1.1 part A(1) (b) 3-50 MW. types of GM maize for which EU decisions are due, The relevant section will be dependent upon the known as Bt11 and 1507 respectively, is available on the specific type of material being burnt. DEFRA website at http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/acre/pdf/advice/acre- Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for advice-Bt11-maize.pdf Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance and his Department has issued on whether an end-of-waste http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/acre/pdf/advice/acre- product manufactured from used cooking oil requires a advice-gm-maize-es-01-01.pdf permit under the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2007, Schedule 1, Part 2, ACRE and the European Food Safety Authority Section 1:1; and if he will make a statement. [281363] have both said that Bt11 and 1507 do not pose any greater risk for human health and the environment than Dan Norris: The question of whether any particular conventional maize. It is therefore not expected that any waste has been fully recovered and has ceased to be issues should arise in relation to possible liability for waste must be determined on the facts of the case and environmental harm. Moreover, neither Bt11 nor 1507 taking into account relevant case law on the definition maize are expected to be grown in the UK, because they of waste. The environment agency is responsible for the are not suitable for our growing conditions and would implementation of waste management controls in England not offer any benefit to our farmers. and Wales. Schedule 1, part 2, section 1.1 of the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations Landfill 2007 applies to fuel manufactured from waste regardless of whether the waste from which it has been manufactured Mr. Peter Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for has been fully recovered and has ceased to be waste. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance he DEFRA has not issued guidance specifically advising has issued to the Environment Agency on the account on the question of whether fuel manufactured from to be taken of consequential environmental impacts used cooking oil requires a permit under this provision. that may occur beyond the perimeter of a site which is the subject of an application for a licence for landfill Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for when considering whether or not to grant such a licence; Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his and if he will make a statement. [281998] Department plans to amend the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2007, Schedule 1, Dan Norris [holding answer 23 June 2009]: The principal Part 2, Section 1:1 in the light of the European Court of objective of waste legislation is to ensure that waste is Justice ruling in the 2000 ARCO Chemie case; and if he recovered or disposed of without endangering human will make a statement. [281364] 943W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 944W

Dan Norris: The Arco Chemie case is discussed in the Peterborough city council ″Interpretative Communication on waste and by-products″ Percentage of municipal waste sent for recycling, composting published by the European Commission on 21 February or reuse 2007. DEFRA has no plans to amend the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2007 in 2003-04 28.19 the light of this judgment. 2004-05 27.87 2005-06 32.11 Recycling: Hampshire 2006-07 40.09 2007-08 43.17 Source: Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFRA municipal waste management survey and WasteDataFlow Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what percentage of waste arising in each local authority area in the Renewable Energy: Waste ceremonial county of Hampshire was recycled in each of the last five years. [281371] Mr. Kidney: To ask the Secretary of State for Dan Norris: The following table shows the percentage Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what assessment of municipal waste sent to be recycled, composted or he has made of the effect on the renewable energy sector reused by each authority in the ceremonial county of of the level of rated thermal input allowed by a Part 1A Hampshire in the financial years 2003-04 through to permit under the Environmental Permitting Regulations 2007-08. 2007; [276124] Some data for 2004-05 are unavailable due to authorities (2) if he will increase the level of rated thermal input not providing complete data returns. allowed by a Part 1A permit required under the Percentage of municipal waste sent for recycling, composting or reuse Environmental Permitting Regulations 2007 for fuel 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 manufactured from waste which has attained an end-of-waste certificate. [276677] Southampton City 12.69 — 24.75 25.50 26.77 Council Portsmouth City 18.22 20.92 23.33 24.84 26.40 Dan Norris: I assume both these questions refer to a Council provision in Part A(1) of Section 1.1 of Annex I of the Winchester City 17.08 18.43 19.50 21.35 31.32 Environmental Permitting Regulations (England and Council Wales) 2007. This provision refers to burning waste oil, Test Valley Borough 14.76 — 21.71 27.42 35.47 Council recovered oil or any fuel manufactured from, or comprising, Rushmoor Borough 16.89 22.01 21.67 22.72 26.13 any other waste. If such material is burnt in an appliance Council with a rated thermal input of more than 3 megawatts, New Forest District 26.09 26.16 25.13 28.25 32.61 that activity will require a permit from the Environment Council Agency which embodies integrated pollution prevention Havant Borough 18.65 — 23.28 30.11 31.99 and control (IPPC) requirements. Council Hart District 17.65 24.18 22.57 30.28 39.07 The 3 megawatt threshold was contained in predecessor Council Regulations dating back to the last decade. No assessment Gosport Borough 15.37 — 23.62 24.08 25.83 of its impact specifically on the renewable energy sector Council has been carried out. DEFRA has no plans to change Fareham Borough 25.63 — — 38.49 39.79 Council the threshold. Eastleigh Borough 31.19 — — 36.80 37.44 Council East Hampshire 33.51 — 33.50 35.19 38.36 School Milk District Council Basingstoke and 16.15 16.63 16.43 19.12 22.06 Deane Borough Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Council Food and Rural Affairs how many schools in each local Hampshire County 15.51 — 34.39 38.26 41.49 Council authority area provided milk to children under the (a) Isle of Wight 26.17 24.88 28.82 30.35 33.49 EU School Milk Subsidy and (b) the national top-up Council scheme in the latest period for which figures are available. Source: [277851] DEFRA municipal waste management survey and WasteDataFlow.

Recycling: Peterborough Jim Fitzpatrick: We do not hold figures on the number of schools that provide milk as part of the EU School Milk Scheme. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what percentage However, there are currently 171 organisations claiming of waste arising in Peterborough local authority area under the scheme in Great Britain: was recycled in each of the last five years. [281665] 155 local authorities; six schools; Dan Norris: The following table shows the percentage one parish council; of municipal waste sent to be recycled, composted or reused in Peterborough city council in the financial three town councils; and years 2003-04 through to 2007-08. six other organisations. 945W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 946W

Veterinary Laboratories Agency: Consultants : My ministerial portfolio requires my Office to operate across the estates of the Cabinet Office Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, and Department for Culture, Media and Sport. The Food and Rural Affairs how much the Veterinary costs for (a) electricity and (b) gas will be included in Laboratories Agency spent on consultants in each of the answers provided by the Minister of State, Cabinet the last five years. [279541] Office (Angela E. Smith) and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. Jim Fitzpatrick: The Veterinary Laboratories Agency has spent the following on consultants in each of the Gregory Barker: To ask the Minister for the Olympics last five years: how much was spent on energy efficiency measures for her Office’s estate in each year from its inception to £ 2009; what assessment has been made of the effectiveness 2004-05 978,427 of that expenditure; and what plans she has for future 2005-06 996,799 energy efficiency measures. [280531] 2006-07 854,874 2007-08 793,702 Tessa Jowell: My ministerial portfolio requires my 2008-09 480,418 Office to operate across the estates of the Cabinet Office and Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Energy Income in 2008-09 was £106 million with expenditure efficiency measures, assessment of the effectiveness of on ‘consultancy’ of £480,418. This includes just under these measures and future plans for energy efficiency £300,000 for specialist scientific IT consultancy; £100,000 measures will be included in the answers provided by on management and financial consultancy; with the the Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. Smith) remaining expenditure on specialist scientific/veterinary and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and consultancy. Sport. The overall spend for the first two categories is similar for previous years, with a decline from 2004-05 through Gregory Barker: To ask the Minister for the Olympics to 2008-09 in specialist scientific/veterinary consultancy which official is responsible for the energy efficiency of as these specialist skills have been developed in house. her Office’s estate. [280558] Waste Disposal: EC Countries Tessa Jowell: My ministerial portfolio requires my Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Office to operate across the estates of the Cabinet Office Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his and Department for Culture, Media and Sport. The Department has undertaken research on the treatment responsibility for energy efficiency will be included in of end-of-waste product in other EU members states; the answers provided by the Minister of State, Cabinet and if he will make a statement. [281826] Office (Angela E. Smith) and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. Dan Norris: No such research has been undertaken by DEFRA. However, Article 6 of the revised Waste Framework Directive (WFD) (2008/98/EC) enables the Departmental Lost Property European Commission to adopt end-of-waste criteria for specified waste. With a view to the adoption of such Mr. Blunt: To ask the Minister for the Olympics how criteria, the Commission’s Joint Research Centre (JRC) many laptop computers belonging to her Office have has carried out preparatory work and has published been lost or stolen in the last five years. [281074] reports entitled “Study on the selection of waste streams for end-of-waste assessment” and “End-of-waste criteria, methodology and case studies”. DEFRA participated Tessa Jowell: Since my Office was established in July in the JRC-chaired discussions that preceded the publication 2007 no laptops have been lost or stolen from my of these reports. private office. Article 6 of the revised WFD also provides that, where end-of-waste criteria have not been set by the Commission: Olympic Delivery Authority: Manpower “Member states may decide case by case whether certain waste has ceased to be waste taking into account applicable case law.” Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Olympics how Member states must notify the Commission of such many (a) directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist decisions in accordance with the Technical Standards and delivery managers and (d) executive support and Directive (98/34/EC). administration staff there were in each Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) office since the inception of the ODA. [280315] OLYMPICS Tessa Jowell: As of 31 May 2009, the Olympic Delivery Departmental Energy Authority (ODA) employed 245 members of staff. This consists of permanent staff, fixed term contract staff, Gregory Barker: To ask the Minister for the Olympics and secondments. Staff are broken into pay bands how much (a) electricity and (b) gas was used on her across the ODA as set out in the following table. The Office’s estate in each year from its inception to 2008-09. table also provides the breakdown of staff as at 31 March [280521] 2007 and 2008 respectively. 947W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 948W

There will be other attributable costs to the public 31 May 31 March 31 March Band Role 2009 2008 2007 purse, for example in respect of the security and transport functions associated with the venue. However, these 6 CEO 1 1 1 costs have not yet been identified separately for individual 5 Directors 7 7 7 venues, but they will form part of the overall security 4 Heads of 28 27 18 and transport budgets. Function 3 Managers/ 89 74 44 Technical Olympic Games 2012: Tourism Professionals 2 Executives/ 58 37 17 Sarah Teather: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Officers what estimate she has made of the number of 1 Administrative 62 46 29 additional visitors expected to visit each (a) region and Support (b) London borough as a result of the London 2012 Total 245 192 116 Olympics. [280363]

The ODA expect overall staffing levels within the Tessa Jowell: Using the London Organising Committee organisation to reduce over time as construction progresses of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games Ltd on the big five venues for the London 2012 Games (LOCOG)’s London 2012 Ticket Allocation Model, the although in the transportation area staffing levels will Oxford Economics study, ‘The Value of the London increase as we move closer to Games operations. 2012 Games and Paralympic Games to UK Tourism’, published in September 2007 and commissioned by Olympic Games 2012: Facilities VisitBritain and Visit London, estimated that there will be approximately 900,000 attendees at events related to Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Olympics the 2012 Games. what her latest estimate is of the cost of hosting the However, this will contribute only a small part of the London 2012 Olympics road cycling event at Regent’s estimated £2.1 billion tourism gains for the UK as a Park. [279776] whole that will result from the Games during the period 2007-17. The study has also estimated that there will be Tessa Jowell [holding answer 23 June 2009]: The in excess of 32 million UK-wide extra nights stayed London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games by visitors as a result of the Games, of which nearly and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) has responsibility 22 million will be in London. No other London or for staging the Olympic and Paralympic Games. The regional breakdown is currently available. direct costs associated with staging the road cycling event in Regent’s Park, which is a publicly owned venue, come from LOCOG’s revenues which are primarily derived from commercial sponsorship, broadcast rights, NORTHERN IRELAND ticket sales and merchandising/licensing—not from the public purse. Departmental Data Protection There will be attributable costs to the public purse, for example in respect of the security, transport and other functions associated with the venue. However, Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern these costs have not yet been identified separately for Ireland how many breaches of information security Regent’s Park, but they will form part of the overall there have been at (a) his Department and (b) its security and transport budgets. agencies in the last five years. [281079] Paul Goggins: There have been 10 breaches of Olympic Games 2012: Gun Sports information security since 1 January 2004. The Northern Ireland Office and its agencies report Bob Spink: To ask the Minister for the Olympics all significant personal data security breaches to the what her latest estimate is of the cost of hosting the Cabinet Office and the ICO. Information on personal London 2012 Olympic shooting event at the Royal data security breaches are published on an annual basis Artillery Barracks. [280508] in the Department’s annual resource accounts as was announced in the Data Handling Review published on Tessa Jowell: The London Organising Committee of 25 June 2008. the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) has responsibility for the staging of the Olympic and Additionally, all significant control weaknesses including Paralympic Games, with the Olympic Delivery Authority other significant security breaches are included in the (ODA) constructing the major venues. Statement of Internal Control which is published within the annual resource accounts. The direct costs associated with staging the events come from LOCOG’s revenues, which are primarily derived from commercial sponsorship, broadcast rights, Departmental Location ticket sales and merchandising/licensing—not from the public purse. The ODA is funding some costs at the Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Royal Artillery Barracks, but project budgets cannot be Northern Ireland how much his Department spent on disclosed owing to reasons of commercial sensitivity, as relocation costs for new members of staff in each of the contract is yet to be awarded. the last three years. [280773] 949W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 950W

Mr. Woodward: The Northern Ireland Office, including Mr. Sutcliffe: The Director of Corporate Services is the Public Prosecution Service Northern Ireland but responsible for energy efficiency for the Department for excluding its agencies and NDPBs, has had no expenditure Culture, Media and Sport’s estate. on resettlement costs for new members of staff in each of the last three years. Departmental Finance Prisoners Release: Northern Ireland Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how much was spent by (a) Dr. McCrea: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department and (b) its associated public bodies on Northern Ireland how many foreign national prisoners administration of the making of grants as a proportion were released from Northern Ireland prisons in each of of the amount of grants made in 2008-09. [281237] the last five years. [281332] Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department for Culture, Media Paul Goggins: Between July 2006 and May 2009 and Sport does not hold this data. To provide this releases were as shown in the following table and include information would incur disproportionate costs. However, immigration detainees who have served a sentence and a report by the National Audit Office entitled “Making were held on immigration warrants: grants efficiently in the culture, media and sports sector” was published in May 2008. Please see the following July 2006 July 2007 May 2008 link. to June to April to May 2007 2008 2009 http://www.nao.org.uk/our_work_by_sector/ culture_media_and_leisure/making_grants_efficiently.aspx Released time served 72 101 165 Released on bail 96 72 102 Departmental Food Discharged by the court 25 18 73 Released fine paid 11 8 14 Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Released by hospital 123 order Culture, Media and Sport what percentage of the (a) meat, (b) fruit and (c) vegetables procured by his Transferred to UK —— 1 prison Department in the last 12 months was produced in the Released, charges —— 8UK. [281947] withdrawn Released into IND/ 21 41 53 Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department procures the following UKBA custody for percentage of domestic produce: consideration of (a) Meat: 96 per cent. removal/deportation (b) Fruit: 70 per cent. Total 226 242 419 (c) Vegetables: 86 per cent. Prior to July 2006 statistics are available only on those foreign national prisoners released from Northern Departmental Press: Subscriptions Ireland prisons who were serving a sentence of 12 months or more. Between January 2004 and June 2006, 16 such Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for foreign national prisoners were released, seven of whom Culture, Media and Sport to which (a) magazines, (b) into the custody of the Immigration and Nationality journals and (c) newspapers his Department Department (IND). subscribes; and what the cost of such subscriptions has been in each of the last three years. [280763]

Mr. Sutcliffe: The information in the following table CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT represents expenditure incurred by the Department on subscriptions for hard copy and online magazines, Departmental Data Protection newspapers, books and other publications, access to specific research databases, the Stationery Office and Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, other parliamentary information sources as well as legal Media and Sport how many breaches of information online and hard copy updating services. security there have been at (a) his Department and (b) its agencies in the last five years. [281071] £

Mr. Sutcliffe: My Department has had nine security 2006-07 160,368 incidents over the past five years. Royal Parks, our one 2007-08 175,666 agency, has had nine security incidents in the same 2008-09 200,707 period. Notes: 1. All figures given to nearest whole figure. 2. The 2008-09 figures have yet to be audited and are therefore subject Departmental Energy to change. The way our financial information has been recorded Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for does not allow us to disaggregate newspapers, magazines Culture, Media and Sport which official is responsible and journals from the overall expenditure. To provide a for the energy efficiency of his Department’s estate. list of individual titles to which the Department subscribes [280568] would incur a disproportionate cost in excess of £750. 951W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 952W

Gambling: Internet Licensed Premises: Gambling

Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport when he plans to publish the Culture, Media and Sport what assessment he has outcomes of the consultations on premises licence made of the effectiveness of steps taken by the online regulations (section 172(6)) (gaming tables). [281595] gambling industry to identify and prevent fraud in relation to bets taken on sport. [280146] Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 22 June 2009]: The Consultation on Casino Premises Licence Regulations Mr. Sutcliffe: Licensed betting operators are required under section 172(6) of the Gambling Act 2005 closed by the Gambling Commission to provide information on 15 May 2009. I am considering all responses and will in relation to bets they suspect may relate to an offence make an announcement shortly. under the Act. The Commission is working with all licensed betting operators to ensure the identification Olympic Games 2012 and prevention of fraud in relation to sports betting is effective. Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition, the expert panel on sports integrity I am Culture, Media and Sport how many full-time establishing will look at, consider and report on, a equivalent members of staff in (a) his Department and range of issues including the identification and prevention (b) its associated public bodies are working on projects of online fraud in relation to betting integrity. relating to the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games; how many of them are working on (i) project management, (ii) legacy planning, (iii) project oversight Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, and (iv) financial oversight; and what plans he has for Media and Sport if he will submit to the European future staffing levels in each case. [279814] Commission a paper giving the Government’s opinion on the legislation proposed by the French government Tessa Jowell: I have been asked to reply. on the operation of its domestic online gambling market; The London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games and if he will discuss with the government of Malta the are a key priority across Government. The Government likely effects of its policy on that matter on UK leisure Olympic Executive (GOE) was set up within the and gaming businesses. [280147] Department for Culture, Media and Sport to oversee the delivery of Government objectives for the Games. Mr. Sutcliffe: The UK Government have submitted As of 15 June, the GOE consisted of 93.7 full-time comments to the European Commission under the technical equivalent (FTE) staff. Of this total, no members of notification procedure on the French legislative proposals staff are working in roles defined as project management in relation to online gambling. We are concerned that roles, 21.5 are working in roles mainly relating to legacy some of the measures contained in the notification may planning, 14 on roles mainly relating to project oversight, constitute restrictions to trade and our comments have and six on roles mainly relating to financial control/ emphasised the need for any restrictions to be justified oversight. The remainder of staff work mainly on by imperative reasons in the general interest; to be programme assurance and risk management, staging, suitable for achieving the objectives in question; are strategic communications and parliamentary matters. necessary and proportionate; and applied in a non- In terms of further specific posts relating to Olympic discriminatory manner, as interpreted by decisions of projects within DCMS, 7.5 FTE staff are employed on the European Court of Justice. Olympic Programme Management, the Cultural Olympiad I have no plans to conduct formal discussions with and in the Press Office. Of these, approximately 3.4 the Government of Malta over this matter although my FTE are in roles relating to project management and officials found the detailed opinions submitted by the approximately 1.1 FTE in roles relating to project oversight. Government of Malta and the European Commission The purpose of these posts is to manage the wider helpful when considering this issue. DCMS interests in relation to staging the Games such as elite sport, sport participation, tourism and culture. The remaining three FTE staff are full time press officers. Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for As of 31 May 2009, the Olympic Delivery Authority Culture, Media and Sport what representations he has (ODA) employed 245 members of staff. This consists of received from UK leisure and gaming businesses on the permanent staff, fixed term contract staff, and secondments. likely effects on them of (a) provisions relating to a Contained within the fixed term contract staff category sports rights levy and (b) other provisions proposed by there are a number of graduates that have been recruited the French government in draft legislation on its for a 10 month placement as part of the ODA’s graduate domestic online gambling market. [280148] placement scheme. Of the 245 members of staff employed by the ODA, Mr. Sutcliffe: Officials from the Department recently 136 are currently working in project management roles met with representatives from the remote gambling across a number of ODA teams. industry to discuss the French legislative proposals on It is not possible to provide a breakdown of those online gambling. During that meeting, the industry set staff that are exclusively working on legacy planning out their concerns over the impact some of the proposals roles as every project within the programme is considered might have on UK gambling businesses, including in with legacy in mind ensuring that legacy requirements respect of the provisions relating to a sports rights levy. are incorporated into design briefs, specifications and 953W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 954W business plans. This approach is designed to ensure that Specifically, Sport England have advised that the the London 2012 Games will be the catalyst for the following initiatives have received funding to support regeneration of one of the most underdeveloped areas participation in sport in Norwich in each of the last of the UK. financial years. The ODA currently has nine members of staff with Total overall project oversight responsibilities, and 19 employees Financial Parliamentary award who work closely with its Delivery Partner on the year constituency Recipient Project description (£) financial oversight of the programme. In addition the ODA has engaged Ernst and Young to provide an 2004-05 Norwich, Norfolk County Community 30,333 South Council sports coach Internal Audit service. scheme The ODA expect overall staffing levels within the Total 30,333 organisation to reduce over time as construction progresses on the big five venues for the London 2012 Games 2005-06 Norwich, Norfolk County Community 95,460 although in the transportation area staffing levels will South Council sports coach increase as we move closer to Games operations. scheme Information relating to DCMS’s other non-departmental Norwich, Norfolk County PESSCL and 10,000 South Council coaching public bodies who are working on projects relating to taskforce the London 2012 Olympics could be provided only at Norwich, Norfolk County PESSCL and 9,100 disproportionate cost. South Council coaching Future staffing levels in the GOE will remain under taskforce Norwich, Norfolk County PESSCL and 43,775 review, within the overall budgetary settlement agreed South Council coaching with HM Treasury. taskforce Norwich, Broadland Community 3,000 Playing Fields North District Council sports co-ordinator Norwich, Norfolk County Norfolk 3,000 Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for South Council consumer Culture, Media and Sport what steps his Department support network is taking to (a) enable and (b) encourage local Total 164,335 authorities to increase their provision of sports pitches. [280269] 2006-07 Norwich, Norfolk County Community 140,878 South Council sports coach Mr. Sutcliffe: Sport England have advised that local scheme authorities are encouraged to develop strategies for the Norwich, Norfolk County PESSCL and 3,750 South Council coaching provision of playing fields in their area under Planning taskforce Policy Guidance Note 17(2002). Sport England provides Norwich, Norfolk County PESSCL and 20,000 further advice on how to do this in its document—Towards South Council coaching a Level Playing Field. taskforce This clearly states that local authorities should ensure Total 164,628 that they have an adequate supply of pitches to meet current and future needs within their area. The Department 2007-08 Norwich, Norfolk County Community 130,053 for Communities and Local Government are committed South Council sports coach to updating Planning Policy Guidance Note 17(2002) in scheme the near future. Norwich, Norfolk County PESSCL 20,000 South Council (PESSYP from January 2008) Sport: Norwich and coaching taskforce Total 150,053 Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how much funding his Department allocated to sport-related groups in Norwich in each of 2008-09 Norwich, Norfolk County Community 36,766 South Council sports coach the last five years. [282036] scheme Norwich, Norfolk County Community 71,187 Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department allocated Sport England South Council sports coach over £480 million of Exchequer funding in the last five scheme years, to invest in community sport both through National Norwich, Norfolk County PESSCL 22,000 South Council (PESSYP from Governing Bodies and more specific local initiatives. January 2008) and coaching In addition, in 2009-10, the Department has allocated taskforce Sport England £135.7 million of Exchequer funding. Norwich, Hellesdon High New facility build 65,000 Sport England has targets to get one million people North School doing more sport by 2012-13, and to make a major Norwich, Active Norfolk Active Lloyds 16,713 contribution to the delivery of the five hour sports offer South County Sports Norfolk for children and young people. Norwich will benefit, Partnership alongside every area of England, from Exchequer and Norwich, Norfolk Lawn Norfolk lawn 24,999 South Tennis tennis association lottery investment by Sport England in 2009-10 in Association support of these targets. 955W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 956W

Barbara Follett [holding answer 16 June 2009]: Tourism Total Financial Parliamentary award is the United Kingdom’s fifth largest industry.It contributes year constituency Recipient Project description (£) over £86 billion a year to the national economy and supports, both directly and indirectly, over 2.7 million Norwich, Norfolk County Active Norfolk 26,000 South Council extending activity jobs. capacity funding However, the number of overseas visitors to these Norwich, Norfolk County Active Norfolk 225,600 shores has fallen this year compared with previous ones. South Council extending activity delivery funding But outbound visits by UK residents have also fallen, Norwich, Norwich City Norwich City FC 6,000 and these were 6 per cent. lower in January to February South Football in the football in the 2009 than they were in the same period last year. This Community community offers a potentially good prospect for domestic tourism Total 494,265 at a time when current projections show employment in the tourism and hospitality industry will grow by almost Grand 1,003,614 10 per cent. by 2017, creating over 200,000 additional total jobs. Other opportunities the industry is well placed to Sports: Finance exploit include: favourable currency exchange rates; the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games; the unprecedented Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for number of high level sports events in the UK in the Culture, Media and Sport what funding his decade between 2009 and 2019; the Cultural Olympiad Department made available to maintain and improve and, potentially, the UK City of Culture Competition. sporting facilities in (a) the borough of Test Valley and These opportunities, combined with the UK’s enviable (b) Southampton in each of the last five years. heritage and attractions, mean that the contribution [281452] that the tourism industry would make to the UK’s economic recovery could be considerable. Mr. Sutcliffe: The Department has allocated Sport England over £480 million of Exchequer funding in the last five years, to invest in community sport both through National Governing Bodies and more specific local COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT initiatives. Asylum In addition, in 2009-10, the Department has allocated Sport England £135.7 million of Exchequer funding. Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Sport England has targets to get 1 million people doing Communities and Local Government what assessment more sport by 2012-13, and to make a major contribution he has made of the implications of the recent Slough to the delivery of the five hour sports offer for children and Coventry court judgements for the provision of and young people. Test Valley and Southampton will emergency support for vulnerable refused asylum benefit, alongside every area of England, from Exchequer seekers by local authorities. [281573] and Lottery investment by Sport England in 2009-10 in support of these targets. Mr. Ian Austin: The Department for Communities Specifically, Sport England have advised that the and Local Government has made no formal assessment following initiatives have received funding to support of the court judgments. Refused asylum seekers are the participation in sport in Test Valley and Southampton. responsibility of the UK Border Agency. Free Swimming Council Housing Southampton Unitary Authority has opted in to the Under 16 and Over 60 Free Swimming Programme and has received £173,211. The local authorities that have opted to offer the Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme to both age groups have also received a share of a £10 Communities and Local Government how much million capital fund to spend on modernising or improving revenue was collected in (a) rent and (b) right to buy pool provision. Southampton has received £69,290 in this receipts in each local authority in each of the last regard. 10 years. [280175] Sportsmatch There have been two awards in the Test Valley area totalling Mr. Ian Austin: I have placed in the Library of the £13,580 under the Sportsmatch scheme which aims to support House the available information for the last 10 years on the development of grassroots sport in England. (a) rents collected in respect of dwellings held in each Southampton Amateur Rowing Club local authority’s housing revenue account and (b) receipts. Two payments in the last five years totalling £179,487 have Information on receipts arising from the sale of dwellings been made for renovation and refurbishment work. under right to buy is available from the Department’s Southampton Amateur Gym Club website on: Three payments in the last five years totalling £258,414 have http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/xls/table- been made for renovation and refurbishment work. 648.xls Tourism: Economic Situation Council Housing: Finance

Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what recent assessment he Communities and Local Government when the report has made of the potential contribution of the tourism of the Review of Council Housing Finance will be industry towards economic recovery. [280255] published. [281493] 957W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 958W

Mr. Ian Austin: The Review of Council Housing Gas consumption Finance will report to Ministers soon. We do not intend CLG estate Executive agencies to publish the report but will hold a public consultation 2007-08 6,329,978 18,084,384 on our proposals later in the year. 2008-09 n/k n/k Demos Data collation for 2008-09 are still in progress. The Department expects to complete and verify this process Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for by September 2009. Communities and Local Government whether his Department has any contracts with the think-tank Demos. [279515] Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government which official is Mr. Malik: The Department has no contracts for responsible for the energy efficiency of his Department’s supplies or services with the think-tank Demos. estate. [280567] Departmental Correspondence Mr. Malik: The official responsible for the energy efficiency of the Department for Communities and Alistair Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Local Government’s estate is Andy Mills, Deputy Director Communities and Local Government what percentage Working Environment Division. of letters to his Department from hon. Members’ Parliamentary offices were answered within 30 days of Home Information Packs the date of receipt in each quarter from January 2008 to March 2009. [280460] Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) how many inspections local Mr. Malik: The following proportion of MP authority trading standards officers had carried out in correspondence cases were answered within 30 working relation to the accuracy and completeness of personal days: search information contained in a home information pack on the latest date for which figures are available; Percentage [282030] 2008 (2) what steps his Department has taken to monitor Q1 83 the level of enforcement action taken by trading Q2 85 standards officers in each local authority in relation to Q3 90 the accuracy and completeness of personal search Q4 88 information contained in home information packs. [282031] 2009 : I refer the hon. Member to the reply Q1 82 given by my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool Departmental Energy (Mr. Wright) to the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) on 10 November 2008, Official Report, column 860W. Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much (a) electricity and (b) gas was used (i) on his Department’s Housing and its predecessor’s estate and (ii) by his Department’s and its predecessor’s agencies in each year from Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for 2004-05 to 2008-09. [280517] Communities and Local Government what estimate has been made of the number of (a) homes and (b) Mr. Malik: The Department for Communities and second homes in each district. [281981] Local Government, its predecessors and its Executive agencies used the following quantities of electricity and Mr. Ian Austin: I have placed in the Library of the gas each year from 2004-05: House a table giving details of the total number of Electricity consumption dwellings, and the number of dwellings registered as CLG estate Executive agencies second homes for council tax purposes, in each billing authority in England. 2004-05 10,744,962 15,311,717 2005-06 12,642,144 12,700,819 Housing: Construction 2006-07 13,018,289 12,889,192 2007-08 10,850,743 11,751,470 2008-09 n/k n/k Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether Homes Gas consumption and Communities Agency debt is to be repaid as a CLG estate Executive agencies priority under the terms of the Kickstart Housing Delivery programme. [281211] 2004-05 9,273,713 20,434,155 2005-06 9,339,992 20,740,911 John Healey: The HCA loan would be repayable to 2006-07 8,769,886 12,889,192 the HCA after senior debt is repaid. 959W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 960W

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Sponsor local authority Number of units Communities and Local Government what recent estimate he has made of the number of unsold new Kerrier 20 build properties. [282027] Mendip 54 Mid Devon 27 Mr. Ian Austin: Information on the total number of North Cornwall 18 unsold new build properties is not held centrally. North Devon 40 Where the Homes and Communities Agency has North Somerset 150 allocated grant for the purchase of unsold stock through North Wiltshire 188 their Affordable Housing Programme these figures have Plymouth 64 been provided to the hon. Member on 27 April 2009, Purbeck 6 Official Report, column 1115W. Restormel 76 Sedgemoor 18 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for South Gloucestershire 132 Communities and Local Government what recent South Hams 18 estimate he has made of the number of housing South Somerset 7 developments in England on which construction (a) Stroud 43 has not started and (b) is not progressing; and if he Swindon 75 will make a statement. [282028] Taunton Deane 15 Mr. Ian Austin: There has been no estimate made of Teignbridge 7 the number of housing developments in England on Tewkesbury 10 which construction has not started or is not progressing. Torbay 14 Torridge 71 West Devon 79 Housing: Low Incomes West Dorset 46 West Somerset 16 Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for West Wiltshire 82 Communities and Local Government whether tenants Weymouth and Portland 4 who have purchased equity in their houses under the Grand total 1,769 Social HomeBuy scheme are liable for the maintenance costs of their houses; and what guidance is issued to purchasers in relation to liability for service charges for Local Government Finance: South West their property. [281646] Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will make John Healey: If a social tenant buys a share in their an estimate of the expenditure from the public purse home under Social HomeBuy, he or she is generally incurred by (a) local authorities and (b) other public responsible for all the costs of maintaining it. The sector organisations for which his Department is extent of their liability for maintenance and for service responsible in the South West in the last 12 months. charges will be set out in their shared ownership lease prior to completion of the sale, and local authority and [281268] housing association landlords may decide to share the Mr. Malik: Financial information in this form is only costs of maintaining properties sold under Social HomeBuy. available by financial year (April to March). Estimates of expenditure from the public purse incurred by local Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for authorities in the South West can be extrapolated from Communities and Local Government how many local authority returns. Total budgeted revenue expenditure homes have been bought through the National for 2008-09 is estimated to be £8,517 million. For the Clearing House scheme in each local authority area in same period, provisional outturn capital expenditure the South West region since the scheme’s inception. was reported to be £1,376 million. For other public [281838] sector organisations for which this Department is responsible the best estimate of expenditure from the Mr. Ian Austin: The table shows the number of affordable public purse in the South West is £523 million. homes by local authority in the South West for which allocations of grant were given by the Homes and Local Government: Public Relations Communities Agency to registered social landlords to purchase unsold developer stock in 2008-09: Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what guidance Sponsor local authority Number of units his Department issues to local authorities on the allocation by them of resources for the purposes of Bath and North East Somerset 5 communications and public relations. [281271] Bournemouth 36 Bristol 301 Ms Rosie Winterton: The Code of Recommended Caradon 24 Practice on Local Authority Publicity, to which statute Carrick 18 requires all local authorities to have regard, contains East Dorset 13 specific advice on the costs of local authority publicity, Gloucester 40 reminding local authorities that they are accountable to Kennet 52 the public for their expenditure and should aim to achieve the greatest possible cost-effectiveness. 961W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 962W

Local Government: Young People Non-domestic Rates: Ports

Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what steps his Communities and Local Government what recent Department is taking to increase levels of involvement representations the Prime Minister has received on the of young people in the work of local authorities and effect of the application of retrospective business rates other local public bodies for which his Department is on firms located in ports. [281927] responsible. [281272] Ms Rosie Winterton: The Secretary of State has received Ms Rosie Winterton: My Department is facilitating a recent correspondence as set out in the table from some series of programmes to increase levels of involvement port businesses and their representatives on the issue of of young people in the work of local authorities and retrospective business rates. other public bodies. Communities and Local Government (CLG) established Date received Correspondent ‘young advisors’ in 2005, with the aim of creating a pool 6 May 2009 John MacIntyre, Frank Armitt and of young people aged 15 to 21 to help local authorities Son and public bodies in their policy making and delivery of 20 May 2009 Louise Ellman MP, re Mersey services. There are now 41 schemes operating across the Maritime country at a local level with around 400 trained young 27 May 2009 Norman Hawkes, Leafe and advisors. Hawkes 29 May 2009 Graham Mansbridge, P&OFerries We have also announced £2 million for a pilot programme 1 June 2009 Andy Dixon, Freshney Cargo to look at the way that young mayors can empower 5 June 2009 Austin Mitchell MP re Freshney young people to take part in the local democratic process. Cargo Finally, Communities and Local Government is 10 June 2009 Louise Ellman MP supporting a programme of internships with local 16 June 2009 Austin Mitchell MP councillors. This programme will take place over a two 16 June 2009 Simon Leafe, Leafe and Hawkes year period and will provide young people with 25 hours 18 June 2009 Andy Dixon, Freshney Cargo of shadowing opportunities to help develop their understanding of local democracy. Social Rented Housing

Mortgages: Government Assistance Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he has made of the number of (a) single occupancy Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for households, (b) two person households and (c) three Communities and Local Government what estimate he person households housed in social sector homes with has made of the number of people who will be assisted (i) one, (ii) two, (iii) three and (iv) four or more by the Homeowners Mortgage Support Scheme in (a) bedrooms in the latest period for which figures are Tamworth constituency and (b) England in the next available. [282051] 12 months. [281692] Mr. Ian Austin: The requested estimates are provided John Healey: The aim of Homeowners Mortgage in the following table. These estimates are based on data Support is to prevent repossessions, where households from the 2007-08 Survey of English Housing. suffer a temporary income shock. After taking money Number of people in social sector households by number of bedrooms, England, advice, homeowners apply to their lenders to join the 2007-08 scheme, which allows them to defer up to 70 per cent. of Number of bedrooms the interest due. The Government have published an 4or impact assessment, which estimates how many borrowers, 123more Total at UK level, could be eligible. Official figures on the Number of number of households entering the scheme will be people in published later this year. household Homeowners Mortgage Support is only one form of 1 962 443 231 15 1,651 help available to householders facing repossessions. 2 188 473 386 15 1,062 Government have taken other steps to support households 3 19 223 288 16 546 including: 4 or more 8 159 449 90 705 All 1,178 1,297 1,354 135 3,964 the enhanced Support for Mortgage Interest scheme to help Source: out of work householders with interest payments; Communities and Local Government, Survey of English Housing the Mortgage Rescue Scheme, where local authorities step in to help vulnerable households stay in their homes; Social Rented Housing: Construction expanding free legal advice service by increasing court desk coverage; Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for new pre-action protocol in place on lenders; Communities and Local Government how many £20 million funding for local authorities to provide direct applications for funding from the £100 million fund for support to householder and; local authorities to build social rented housing have over £18 million additional funding for debt advice services. been received from applicants in each region. [281208] 963W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 964W

Mr. Ian Austin: None. We expect to receive the first We have put in place strong policies in Planning bids in early July. Policy Statement 6: “Planning for Town Centres” (PPS6) (published 2005), to allow local authorities to sustain Temporary Accommodation: Costs and enhance their town centres. PPS6 asks local planning authorities to plan positively and proactively for their Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for town centres with growth focused in existing centres in Communities and Local Government what estimate he order to strengthen them and, where appropriate, regenerate has made of the average cost to local authorities of them. providing temporary accommodation for (a) single On 14 April 2009 we published “Looking after our occupancy households and (b) families in (i) each of town centres”, a document setting out the range of the last three years and (ii) the latest period for which powers, guidance and approaches that can help local figures are available. [282029] authorities and their partners promote the vitality and viability of town centres, and explains additional steps Mr. Ian Austin: This information is not collected that the Government are taking to enable further positive centrally. action to be taken, particularly through the temporary use of empty shops. Temporary Accommodation: Peterborough On 5 May 2009 we also published a consultation draft Planning Policy Statement 4 (PPS4): “Planning Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Prosperous Economies” which will replace PPS6. for Communities and Local Government how many This maintains a strong town centres first policy. Draft households were in temporary accommodation in PPS4 reinforces the existing policy requirement for local Peterborough in each of the last five years; and how authorities to plan proactively for their areas in partnership long on average such households spent in such with business and local communities. We want authorities accommodation in each such year. [281955] to identify suitable opportunities for new development, expand town centres where necessary, and address the Mr. Ian Austin: I refer the hon. Member to the answer needs of deprived areas. I gave to the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) on 23 June 2009, Official Report, column 843W. Thurrock Thameside Urban Development Corporation FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Afghanistan: Detainees Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government on what occasions the Housing Minister and his predecessor (a) visited Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Thurrock constituency and (b) met the Thurrock and Commonwealth Affairs whether the US administration Thameside Urban Development Corporation in the last notified his Department that it had agreed to transfer 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [279631] four former detainees from Guantánamo Bay to Bermuda before the transfer occurred; and if he will make a Mr. Malik: I was appointed Minister for the Thames statement. [280866] Gateway and Olympics legacy on 9 June 2009. I visited Thurrock on 16 June 2009, to mark the start of works David Miliband: The former detainees arrived in Bermuda on the new Royal Opera House production park facility early on 11 June 2009. The US Administration notified in Purfleet. During my visit, I met members and officers our embassy in Washington of the transfer a few hours of the Thurrock Thames Gateway Development earlier. Corporation, members and officers of the council and China: British Nationality people from the local community, as well as my hon. Friend. : To ask the Secretary of State for My predecessors have met members and officers of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many British the Thurrock Thames Gateway Development Corporation nationals are living in the People’s Republic of China. informally at a range of meetings including the Thames [282295] Gateway Strategic Partnership. Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Foreign and Commonwealth Urban Areas: Regeneration Office is not able to record the total number of British nationals resident in China. Based on figures held by Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for the Public Security Bureaux in China where resident Communities and Local Government what support his British nationals need to register, we estimate there are Department provides to the retail sector for the approximately 15,000 British nationals living in mainland encouragement of innovative town centre redevelopment. China and 265,000 in Hong Kong. [281410] Departmental Carbon Emissions Mr. Ian Austin: The Government are committed to helping local authorities and the retail sector encourage Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign innovative town centre redevelopment through planning, and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made town centre partnerships, town centre management and of the volume of carbon dioxide emissions arising from other town centre initiatives. These all help to provide air travel by staff in his Department in (a) 2006-07 and solid foundations on which to build strong and attractive (b) 2007-08 (i) in total and (ii) per full-time equivalent town centres. member of staff. [281042] 965W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 966W

Chris Bryant: In 2006-07 total carbon emissions from These figures do not include staff who took early air travel originating in the UK by Foreign and retirement (with compensation) as a result of restructuring Commonwealth Office (FCO) staff were 14,727 tonnes programmes. of CO emissions (CO e) equating to 3.8 tonnes of 2 2 Departmental Work Experience CO2e per full-time equivalent (FTE) member of staff. In 2007-08 emissions from air travel originating in the UK by FCO staff were 12,874 tonnes CO2e equating to Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 3.4 tonnes per FTE. and Commonwealth Affairs how many (a) paid and (b) unpaid graduate internships his Department has Departmental Cleaning Services awarded in each of the last six months. [281517] Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for (FCO) takes part in the Cabinet Office run Summer Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which organisations Development Programme and Summer Placement Scheme provided cleaning services to his Department in each of for undergraduates and graduates. In 2009 we awarded the last three years; and what the cost of each such 10 paid placements to candidates from ethnic minority contract was in each such year. [280760] and disabled backgrounds. There are currently no centrally organised, unpaid, graduate internship programmes in Chris Bryant: Over the last three years cleaning services the FCO. have been provided to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office by the following contractors at the indicated cost. Diplomatic Service: Gifts and Endowments

Contractor £ Mr. Breed: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 2006-07 Emprise 1,324,684.40 and Commonwealth Affairs what guidance his Department 2007-08 Emprise 1,416,941.20 issues to envoys appointed by the Prime Minister on the acceptance of (a) payments, (b) gifts, (c) rewards and (d) other emoluments from (i) non-governmental agencies 2008-09 Emprise (to 31 November 1,033,477.50 [281711] 2008) and (ii) foreign governments. Interserve FM (from 504,539.00 1 December 2008) Chris Bryant: Part-time special envoys appointed by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister offer their services and expertise on a voluntary basis. The Foreign Departmental Electricity and Commonwealth Office (FCO) does not employ them or offer contractual terms to them. We reimburse Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign relevant expenses when envoys undertake visits or and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he has made engagements at our request. of the percentage of electricity used by his Department Political appointments made by the Prime Minister which was derived from renewable sources in (a) to high commissioner posts are subject to the civil 2006-07 and (b) 2007-08. [280933] service code, like all FCO members of staff. As such they may not accept benefits of any kind from a third Chris Bryant: In 2006-07 the percentage of electricity party, which might reasonably be seen to compromise derived from renewable sources for the Foreign and their personal judgement or integrity. We insist that Commonwealth Office UK Estate, including Wilton staff observe the highest standards of propriety, avoid Park, was 32.7 per cent. In 2007-08 this figure was any perceived conflict of interest and refuse all gifts, 30 per cent. unless they are of insignificant value.

Departmental Resignations Eritrea: Human Rights Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State and Commonwealth Affairs when the Government last for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many made representations to the government of Eritrea on members of staff have resigned from his Department in human rights issues. [281353] each year since 2001. [281709] Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK raises human rights issues Chris Bryant: The number of UK civil servants employed with the Eritrean Government both in Asmara and by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) and with the Eritrean Ambassador to London on a regular FCO Services (FCOS) who resigned in each of the last basis, highlighting the amount of public and parliamentary five years was: interest we receive. My noble Friend the Minister for Africa, Asia and the UN, Lord Malloch-Brown, raised FCO FCOS human rights with the Eritrean Ambassador at the end 2004-05 69 20 of last year. 2005-06 94 3 We also discuss human rights as part of the EU via 2006-07 100 1 the Article 8 Political Dialogue. EU Heads of Mission 2007-08 93 10 produced a human rights report at the end of January 2008-09 77 2 to discuss with the Government of Eritrea. Unfortunately, since initial discussions earlier this year the Government We do not hold records of resignations before 2004. of Eritrea has twice refused to have human rights 967W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 968W included on the Article 8 Dialogue agenda for discussion. Mr.IvanLewis[holding answer 22 June 2009]: We We will raise our disappointment, as part of EU Heads are aware of reports that the submarine HMS Poseidon of Mission, at the Eritrean Government’s reluctance to was salvaged in 1972. We have sought clarification from return to human rights issues as part of the planned the Chinese authorities, and await their reply. Article 8 Political Dialogue when EU Heads of Mission and representatives of the Eritrean Government next International Renewable Energy Agency meet on 23 June 2009. We will continue to press to get human rights discussions Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign back on the Article 8 Dialogue agenda. and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has held with his counterpart in (a) Germany, (b) European Anti-Fraud Office Austria, (c) Denmark and (d) the United Arab Emirates on their bids to host the headquarters of the Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign International Renewable Energy Agency. [281424] and Commonwealth Affairs how many cases the European Anti-Fraud Office has investigated since its Mr.IvanLewis[holding answer 23 June 2009]: My inception; and how many investigations have resulted right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has not discussed in one or more convictions. [277098] the headquarters of the International Renewable Agency (IRENA) with the German, Austrian or Danish Foreign Chris Bryant: Information on the European Anti-Fraud Ministers. He has discussed the issue with the Foreign Office (OLAF)’s operations can be found in its annual Minister of the United Arab Emirates and the German reports. Environment Minister. He stressed with both that, as OLAF’s most recent operations report states that the UK was not a member of IRENA and so had no ‘A total of 67 actions corresponding to 20 decisions were voting rights, the UK would not take a formal position undertaken for the protection of the EC’s financial interests. A on where the headquarters should be situated. significant proportion of these actions resulted in imprisonments (24). The three other most frequent actions were financial penalties (19), suspended sentences (18) and damages (5). No suspects were Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign acquitted in 2007’ and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with counterparts in (a) Canada, (b) China, OLAF will also have referred cases to national (c) Japan, (d) India, (e) Brazil, (f) Australia and (g) prosecutors that national authorities may then have the US regarding membership of the International taken action on independently. Renewable Energy Agency. [281425] The full report can be found on OLAF’s website at: http://ec.europa.eu/anti_fraud/reports/olaf/2007/en.pdf Mr.IvanLewis[holding answer 23 June 2009]: My Reports for previous years’ operations can also be right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has had no found on the OLAF website at: discussions with counterparts in these countries concerning http://ec.europa.eu/anti_fraud/reports/olaf_en.html the International Renewable Energy Agency. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the European Commission Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC) has lead responsibility for our policy towards renewable Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign energy. The International Renewable Energy Agency and Commonwealth Affairs if he will assess the merits (IRENA) was set up by the German Government in of holding national elections to determine the UK’s January 2009 and now has around 100 member European Commissioner. [281429] governments. Mandated by these governments worldwide, IRENA aspires to become the main driving force for Mr.IvanLewis:European Commissioners are required promoting a rapid transition towards the widespread to be: and sustainable use of renewable energy on a global “independent in the performance of their duties” scale. The UK (DECC) have now confirmed that they will sign-up to IRENA; this should happen this week. not taking: “instructions from any Government or other institution, body, office or entity”. Laos: Prisoners Any Commissioner put forward can have no given mandate from the UK. Tom Levitt: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make further HMS Poseidon representations to the Lao government about the welfare and political status of the prisoners Thao Mua, Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Pa Fue Khang, Thonpaseuth Keuakoun, Seng-Aloun Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he Phengphanh and Bouavanh Chanhmanivong. [281507] has received on the alleged secret salvaging by China of the HMS Poseidon submarine lost in a peacetime Mr. Ivan Lewis: Our embassy in Bangkok, which is accident in 1931; what information he has received on accredited to Laos, asked the Lao authorities on the disposal of human remains allegedly recovered by 15 May 2009 and again on 21 May 2009 for an update China; what contact his Department has had with the on the current situation of these prisoners. The Lao families of the crew members who died; and what authorities have however responded saying that they are representations he proposes to make on the subject to unable to provide any additional information to that the Chinese government. [281405] supplied in 2008 concerning these men. 969W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 970W

We will continue to raise our concerns with the particular reference to the forthcoming (a) elections in relevant Lao authorities whenever the opportunity arises. Sudan and (b) referendum on the future of South Sudan. [281352] Pakistan: Ethnic Groups Mr.IvanLewis:The Comprehensive Peace Agreement Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign (CPA) is the foundation for future peace and stability and Commonwealth Affairs what recent representations across Sudan. With only two years before the end of the he has made to the government of Pakistan on the interim period, we remain concerned at the number of treatment of minorities in that country. [281355] outstanding CPA issues, including preparations for elections and referenda. We welcome the CPA conference in Mr. Ivan Lewis: My hon. Friend, the former Washington on 23 June 2009 which will bring together Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign both North and South and the international community Affairs, (Gillian Merron), visited Pakistan in February to tackle these issues. 2009 and met the Pakistani Minister for Human Rights, We welcome the National Election Commission’s Mumtaz Gilani and the Minister for Minority Affairs, plans for elections in February 2010, although we are Shahbaz Bhatti. During these meetings, she pressed for concerned that preparations are behind schedule. There more action to protect the rights of minorities in Pakistan. are major challenges which must be addressed, including Ms Merron also called for a review of Pakistan’s blasphemy ensuring necessary legislation, such as the security and laws, which are frequently abused and lead to significant press acts, is appropriate. The UK will be providing discrimination against minorities. significant assistance and we are working with the Sudanese Bilaterally and with our EU partners we continue to and the international community to ensure peaceful call upon the Government of Pakistan to promote the and credible elections are held. concept of freedom of religion and belief and to initiate The UK remains completely committed to fair and early reform of the discriminatory blasphemy legislation. credible referenda on self-determination, both for Abyei In the course of their duties, officials at our high and the South, as defined in the CPA. The referendum commission in Islamabad regularly meet with members bill is currently being discussed in the Sudanese parliament. of the Government of Pakistan to discuss the human We urge both sides to reach agreement quickly on the rights situation in Pakistan. bill to allow preparations for the referenda to begin.

Royal Visits Turks and Caicos Islands

Mr. Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for and Commonwealth Affairs how much his Department Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he expects spent on clothing for official visits overseas by members the final report of the Commission of Inquiry on the of the Royal Family in 2008-09. [281482] Turks and Caicos Islands to be published; what timetable he has set for responding to that report; and Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office if he will make a statement. [281905] does not pay clothing costs for members of the Royal Family on official overseas travel. Chris Bryant: I hope to make a statement to the Somalia: Piracy House on the Commission of Inquiry’s final report shortly, explaining when the Governor intends to publish the report and the action necessary. Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Uganda: Armed Conflict Answer of 20 May 2009, Official Report, column 1425W, when the next meeting of Working Group 1 of the Contact Group on Piracy off the coast Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of Somalia will be; and what matters will be discussed and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has at the meeting. [280684] received on progress on peace negotiations between the Lords Resistance Army and the government of Mr. Ivan Lewis: Working Group 1 met informally on Uganda. [281354] 10 June 2009 in the margins of the Seoul High-Level Meeting on Piracy off the Coast of Somalia. It discussed Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Government of Uganda and the regional capability development priorities with the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA) agreed a peace settlement, representatives of regional countries and other international the Final Peace Agreement (FPA), in April 2008 after partners. The next formal meeting is planned to take almost two years of negotiations mediated by the place in London on 10 July 2009. The meeting is likely Government of Southern Sudan. The leader of the again to focus predominantly on regional capability LRA, Joseph Kony, refused to sign the FPA, most development needs and priorities, although an agenda recently in November 2008, in the absence of a guarantee is yet to be finalised. of immunity from prosecution at the International Criminal Court. LRA activity in the Democratic Republic of Sudan: Peace Negotiations Congo (DRC) and Southern Sudan, including abductions and attacks on civilians, have continued in the interim. Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign The Governments of Uganda, the DRC and the and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he Government of Southern Sudan began joint military has made of the prospects for implementation of the action against the LRA in December 2008. The Comprehensive Peace Agreement in Sudan, with Government of Uganda has stated that it remains 971W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 972W committed to the FPA but is not prepared to re-open The table provides information on the proportion of negotiation of the terms of the agreement with the ballot papers counted in each division of Lancashire LRA. There are no negotiations currently in train. county council at the 2009 elections which were deemed to have been spoiled. Returning officers are not required Zimbabwe to report information about the proportion of returned postal votes which were rejected because of a missing or Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for incomplete postal voting statement until 25 days after Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent polling day. The Commission will include an analysis of discussions he has had with representatives of rejected postal votes in its report on the June 2009 Southern African Development Community (SADC) elections in October 2009. countries on the political situation in Zimbabwe; and what assessment he has made of the proposal to Division Proportion (percentage) convene a SADC extraordinary summit to discuss the Accrington North 2.6 matter. [280635] Accrington South 0.5 Accrington West 3.1 Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary last discussed Zimbabwe with his then South Amounderness 1.1 African counterpart, Mrs. Dlamini-Zuma, at a meeting Bamber Bridge and Walton-le-Dale 1.7 in London on 6 March 2009. My noble Friend, the Brierfield and Nelson North 1.8 Minister for Africa, Asia and the UN, Lord Malloch-Brown Burnley Central East 0.7 is in regular contact with Southern African Development Burnley Central West 0.6 Community (SADC) countries on Zimbabwe, most recently Burnley North East 0.5 in the margins of the World Economic Forum meeting Burnley Rural 0.7 in Cape Town on 11 June 2009. Burnley South West 2.3 SADC, as a guarantor of the Global Political Agreement Chorley East 0.5 (GPA) conducted as the Inclusive Government was Chorley North 0.5 formed, has a key role to play in ensuring compliance Chorley Rural East 1.3 with its provisions. How to respond to any specific Chorley Rural North 1.2 appeal that it may have received from the Movement for Chorley Rural West 2.6 Democratic Change is clearly a matter for SADC itself, Chorley South 1.7 though we would hope that it would do so resolutely. Chorley West 3.5 Clitheroe 1.8 Farington 1.3 Fleetwood East 0.5 ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE Fleetwood West 0.6 Postal Votes Fylde East 0.6 Fylde South 0.5 Fylde West 0.3 Mr. Hoyle: To ask the hon. Member for South West Garstang 0.5 Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Great Harwood 0.9 Electoral Commission what assessment the Electoral Heysham 0.7 Commission has made of the merits of the use of a standard form of ballot paper for postal voting in Lancaster Central 0.4 elections. [282085] Lancaster East 1.0 Lancaster Rural East 0.6 Mr. Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me Lancaster Rural North 0.6 that it is currently developing a set of UK-wide standards Lancaster South East 0.4 on the accessibility, design and usability of ballot papers Leyland Central 1.2 and associated stationery including postal voting materials. Leyland South West 1.5 The Commission will publish its standards in autumn Longridge with Bowland 1.1 2009. Lytham 0.5 Postal Votes: Lancashire Morecambe North 1.3 Morecambe South 0.9 Morecambe West 1.1 Mr. Hoyle: To ask the hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker’s Committee on the Nelson South 0.4 Electoral Commission what information the Electoral Ormskirk West 0.0 Commission holds on the proportion of postal votes Oswaldtwistle 3.3 spoiled in each ward in Lancashire County Council in Padiham and Burnley West 0.7 the 2009 county council elections. [282084] Pendle Central 0.5 Pendle East 0.2 Mr. Streeter: The Electoral Commission informs me Pendle West 0.5 that it is not possible to provide information about the Penwortham North 0.6 proportion of postal votes which are spoiled, because Penwortham South 2.2 ballot papers which have been returned by post are Poulton-le-Fylde 0.6 mixed with ballot papers from polling stations before Preston Central North 0.4 they are counted. 973W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 974W

Division Proportion (percentage) Division Proportion (percentage)

Preston Central South 0.8 West Craven 0.5 Preston City 0.8 West Lancashire East 0.9 Preston East 0.7 West Lancashire North 0.9 Preston North 1.0 West Lancashire South 1.1 Preston North East 0.7 West Lancashire West 0.3 Preston North West 1.6 Whitworth 0.8 Preston Rural 0.6 Wyreside 0.9 Preston South East 1.2 Preston West 1.0 CABINET OFFICE Ribble Valley North East 0.8 Ribble Valley South West 0.6 Cancer Rishton and Clayton-le-Moors 2.4 John Howell: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Rossendale East 0.4 Office how many cases of cancer have been diagnosed Rossendale North 0.6 in (a) England and (b) each ward of Henley Rossendale South 1.9 constituency in each year since 2000. [281174] Rossendale West 0.6 Skelmersdale Central 0.7 Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Skelmersdale East 1.2 within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Skelmersdale West 0.6 I have asked the Authority to reply. Skerton 0.6 Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated June 2009: South Ribble Rural East 1.8 As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking how many cases of cancer South Ribble Rural West 0.4 have been diagnosed in (a) England and (b) each ward of Henley St. Annes North 0.4 constituency in each year since 2000 [281174]. St. Annes South 0.4 The latest available figures for newly diagnosed cases of cancer Thornton Cleveleys Central 0.6 (incidence) are for the year 2006. Numbers of newly diagnosed Thornton Cleveleys North 0.7 cases of cancer for the years 2000 to 2006 for (a) England and for (b) each ward of Henley constituency are in Table 1.

Table 1: Registration of newly diagnosed cases of cancer1: England, and each ward2 of Henley parliamentary constituency, 2000 to 2006 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006

England 229,339 232,575 230,208 234,434 239,273 241,974 242,184

Henley constituency 434 469 450 458 458 480 466

Wards of Henley constituency Aston Rowant 13 11 5 11 13 10 12 Benson 26 22 25 25 18 24 22 Berinsfield 13 30 21 28 35 26 38 Chalgrove 11 13 12 15 14 5 12 Chiltem Woods 19 15 17 11 20 17 10 Chinnor 35 30 23 29 30 32 26 Crowmarsh 12 7 6 15 17 6 13 Forest Hill and Holton 13 19 15 17 10 25 10 Garsington 21 19 12 16 6 12 20 Goring 30393540245136 Great Milton 12 25 14 22 13 11 12 Henley North 37 26 35 35 37 41 22 Henley South 30 32 32 31 36 34 36 Sanford 9 23 17 7 13 13 22 Shiplake 29243025371626 Sonning Common 22 31 34 26 21 33 27 Thame North 19 23 13 19 26 21 24 Thame South 21 16 22 22 28 25 30 Watlington 27 24 34 26 20 24 29 Wheatly 25293625293729 Woodcote 10 11 12 13 11 17 10 1 All cancers, coded to C00-C97 in the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10), excluding non-melanoma skin cancer (C44). 2 Both the parliamentary constituency and the wards are based on boundaries as of 2008. Source: Office for National Statistics. 975W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 976W

Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS

Mr. Maude: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office with reference to the answer of 17 November Apprentices 2008, Official Report, column 244W, on Ministerial policy advisers, how much was spent on severance payments Mr. Watson: To ask the Minister of State, Department to special advisers in each year prior to 2007-08 for for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is which records are held. [241896] taking to increase the number of apprenticeships, with particular reference to apprenticeships within the Angela E. Smith: Since 2002-03, the Government automotive industry. [279355] have published information about the numbers and cost of special advisers, including the cost of severance Kevin Brennan: This Department and the Department payments. The total cost of severance payments to for Children, Schools and Families currently fund special advisers in each year from 2002-03 to 2006-07 is Apprenticeships for adults and young people in a number set out as follows. of occupations in the automotive industry in England. Apprenticeships will play a key role in our response to £ the current economic downturn. Earlier in the year my 2002-03 92,686 right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced a £140 2003-04 85,329 million package to provide an extra 35,000 Apprenticeship 2004-05 78,624 places over the coming year in both the public and 2005-06 955,895 private sectors to help boost the country’s competitiveness. 2006-07 171,521 Last month we announced that businesses across the country with a proven track record of delivering As has been the practice of successive administrations, Apprenticeships would share £11 million to create 3,000 severance payments to special advisers are made in line new places by employing apprentices over and above with the contractual provisions set out in the “Model the number they already employ. This will help these Contract for Special Advisers”. businesses support smaller companies in their supply chains. Companies benefiting from this funding include: Departmental Security Scania; Daf Trucks; Ford; BMW; Mercedes Benz; and Jaguar Land Rover. Nick Harvey: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Looking to the future, we have set ambitious targets Office how many members of the Cabinet Office’s for the growth of the Apprenticeships programme. security staff have (a) been suspended, (b) been Apprenticeships provisions are being taken forward as dismissed and (c) resigned in the last eight months; part of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning and for what reasons in each case. [275267] Bill, including provisions to ensure that an Apprenticeship place is available for all suitably qualified young people Angela E. Smith: It is Cabinet Office policy not to by 2013. provide information which risks identifying individual members of staff. Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many Government Departments: ICT apprenticeships were awarded to individuals subsequently discovered to be illegal immigrants in the last year for which figures are available. [280081] Adam Afriyie: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what proportion of computers in Government departments run (a) Microsoft Office software, (b) Kevin Brennan: All apprentices must be entitled to Open Office software and (c) other open source office work in the UK in order to take up an apprenticeship software. [282045] and, as with any employment, it is the employer’s responsibility to check all prospective employees’entitlement Angela E. Smith: The information requested is not to work in the UK, or they risk breaking the law. held centrally and could not be collected without Neither this Department nor the UK Border Agency disproportionate cost. collect information of this nature, therefore no figures are available. Non-Departmental Public Bodies Apprentices: Essex Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many non-departmental public bodies have been (a) established and (b) abolished since May Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department 1997. [281499] for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point commenced level 2 Angela E. Smith: Information on non-departmental apprenticeships in each of the last five years. [279037] public bodies (NDPBs) is published in the annual Cabinet Office “Public Bodies” report. Copies are available from Kevin Brennan: Table 1 shows the number of Level 2 the Libraries of the House. “Public Bodies” 2008 reports apprenticeship starts in both Essex local authority and that the total number of NDPBs fell by around 8 per Castle Point parliamentary constituency for each of the cent. since 1997—from 857 to 790 in 2008. last five academic years. 977W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 978W

Table 1: Apprenticeship Starts Mr. Russell has, however, stated that an announcement 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 will be made by the end of this month as to which projects will go through to the next stage of the prioritisation Castle 220 220 220 210 250 Point process. Essex 3,200 3,000 2,900 3,100 3,600 Notes: Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Minister of State, 1. Area is based on learner’s home postcode. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what 2. Figures for parliamentary constituency have been rounded to the criteria the Learning and Skills Council uses to nearest 10, figures for local authority have been rounded to the determine which further education colleges receive nearest 100. funding for building projects from the £300 million Source: [280710] Work-Based Learning ILR capital fund announced in Budget 2009.

Apprentices: Local Government Kevin Brennan: In line with Sir Andrew Foster’s recommendations, the Learning and Skills Council consulted on the best approach to prioritise projects. Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the The first stage of prioritisation will be ‘readiness’. answer of 11 May 2009, Official Report, column 599W, Projects which pass through the readiness gateway will on apprentices: local government, how many (a) then be assessed against the other following prioritisation apprentices and (b) advanced apprentices are employed criteria: by each local authority. [278874] Education and skills impact Contribution to local economic and regeneration priorities Kevin Brennan: We do not hold centrally data on the Co-dependency with 3rd parties number of apprentices employed by each local authority. Condition of estate The Government are committed to developing and Value for money expanding apprenticeships in the public sector and earlier We expect to announce which projects will be taken this year Cabinet colleagues announced plans for the forward during this spending review period in the summer. expansion of the apprenticeships scheme across the public sector. We announced a £140 million package to Education: Procurement deliver 35,000 extra places this year of which 21,000 would be in the public sector. Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Apprentices: Public Sector steps his Department has taken to promote the uptake of collaborative procurement strategies within universities : To ask the Minister of State, and further education colleges, as recommended in HM Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Treasury’s May 2009 review, Operational Efficiency many public sector apprenticeships have been started in Programme: collaborative procurement. [279714] (a) Stockport and (b) Tameside local authority area since 2005. [279768] Mr. Lammy: As part of our drive to ensure value for money, we have worked through our key delivery partners Kevin Brennan: We do not hold centrally data on the to support higher education institutions and further number of apprentices employed by each local authority. education colleges in delivering greater efficiencies. That The Government are committed to developing and includes using consortia at local, regional and national expanding apprenticeships in the public sector and earlier level to procure goods and services collaboratively. This this year Cabinet colleagues announced plans for the has already been successful over a number of years. expansion of the apprenticeships scheme across the Further Education Colleges have already made savings public sector. We announced a £140 million package to of over £70 million and Higher Education Institutions deliver 35,000 extra places this year of which 21,000 delivered efficiencies of over £100 million as a result of would be in the public sector. improvements in procurement. We will continue to promote the benefits of collaborative procurement, while respecting the independence of individual institutions. Building Colleges for the Future Programme Further Education: North Yorkshire Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills for Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister of State, what reasons the Learning and Skills Council has not Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what taken decisions on colleges’ capital programme in assessment he has made of the likely effects on students accordance with its originally planned timetable; and if in North Yorkshire of the recent changes to the budget he will make a statement. [279662] of the Learning and Skills Council. [278949]

Kevin Brennan [holding answer 17 June 2009]: As set Kevin Brennan: Students in North Yorkshire and out by the Learning and Skills Council’s (LSC) acting elsewhere have already benefited from the increase in chief executive, Geoff Russell, in his letter of 2 June, investment for further education of 53 per cent. in real many more colleges have put forward a case for their terms since 1997. Recent changes which will affect LSC projects to be considered as ″shovel ready″ than expected, budgets were announced in Budget 2009. The Budget and so unfortunately the LSC were not in a position to made available an additional £300 million of further ask its June Council to approve individual projects. education capital spending and £122 million to support 979W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 980W extra training in England for young people who have Higher Education: Peterborough been unemployed for 12 months. As part of DCSF-funded activity, there will be £655 million to support over 54,000 more young people to take up a guaranteed Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister of State, place at school or college. As part of Budget 2009, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Government committed to delivering an additional many students resident in Peterborough constituency £5 billion of efficiency savings in 2010-11. The then were in higher education in each of the last 10 years. Secretary of State for DIUS wrote to the LSC on 7 May [281670] setting out expectations on the contribution to those efficiencies from post-19 further education provision. Mr. Lammy: The latest available information from Taking into account these changes, the LSC will see an the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) is shown estimated overall increase in resources for frontline in the table. Figures for the 2008/09 academic year will teaching, learning and learner support services for post-19 be available in January 2010. learners of around £140 million between 2009-10 and Enrolments1 from Peterborough parliamentary constituency2 UK 2010-11. We expect learners in North Yorkshire to higher education institutions academic years 1998/99 to 2007/08 benefit from these changes. Funding allocations for Academic year Peterborough enrolments 2009-10 post-19 provision are currently being finalised and will be completed later this month. 1998/99 2,015 Gambling: Competition 1999/2000 2,090 2000/01 2,120 Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2001/02 2,130 for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent 2002/03 2,080 representations he has received from UK leisure and 2003/04 2,255 gaming businesses on the (a) level of competition in 2004/05 2,350 the online gambling sector in the EU and (b) effects on 2005/06 2,290 them of differences between the regulatory systems 2006/07 2,195 operated by individual EU member states in relation to 2007/08 2,310 online gambling. [280144] 1 Covers undergraduate and postgraduate students enrolled on full-time and part-time courses. Kevin Brennan: This Department has not received 2 Parliamentary constituency is defined by full and valid home postcodes any such recent representations from the UK leisure recorded on the HESA student record. and gaming businesses. Note: Figures are on a snapshot basis as at 1 December and are rounded to Higher Education: Cambridgeshire the nearest five. Source: Mr. Vara: To ask the Minister of State, Department Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). for Business, Innovation and Skills how many students resident in North West Cambridgeshire constituency were in higher education in each of the last 10 years. Jaguar Land Rover [281160] Mr. Lammy: The latest available information from Peter Luff: To ask the Minister of State, Department the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) is shown for Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects to in the following table. Figures for the 2008/09 academic conclude his discussions with Jaguar Land Rover on year will be available in January 2010. loan guarantees from the Automotive Assistance Programme; and if he will make a statement. [280593] Enrolments1 from North West Cambridgeshire parliamentary constituency2 UK higher education institutions—Academic years 1998/99 to 2007/08 : The Department is actively pursuing this North West Cambridgeshire issue with Jaguar Land Rover’s parent Tata Motors as a Academic year enrolments priority with a view to reaching a conclusion as soon as 1998/99 2,250 possible. 1999/2000 2,380 2000/01 2,390 2001/02 2,515 Learning and Skills Council: Consultants 2002/03 2,510 2003/04 2,850 Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2004/05 2,965 for Business, Innovation and Skills how much the 2005/06 2,985 Learning and Skills Council has spent on consultants 2006/07 2,740 in each of the last five years. [279381] 2007/08 2,930 1 Covers undergraduate and postgraduate students enrolled on full-time and part-time courses. Kevin Brennan: The Department does not hold this 2 Parliamentary constituency is defined by full and valid home postcodes level of information. The Learning and Skills Council recorded on the HESA student record. makes decisions about the employment of consultants Note: based upon its own business needs. Geoff Russell, the Figures are on a snapshot basis as at 1 December and are rounded to the nearest five. Council’s acting chief executive, will write to the hon. Source: Gentleman with further information. A copy of his Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) reply will be placed in the Libraries of the House 981W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 982W

Learning and Skills Council: Finance learner responsive provision as well as training in the workplace (Train to Gain and apprenticeships) for both adults and young people. Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Learning and Skills Council: Manpower criteria are used by the Learning and Skills Council to allocate funding to local authorities. [280168] Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) directors, Kevin Brennan: Where local authorities are providers (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and delivery managers in their own right, they will receive a funding allocation and (d) executive support and administration staff from the Learning and Skills Council (LSC) to deliver there were in each Learning and Skills Council office in provision in line with funding allocated to all other each of the last five years. [280319] providers. Funding allocations for adult learner responsive (ALR) Kevin Brennan: The Department does not hold this and employer responsive (ER) provision are calculated level of information. Geoff Russell, the Learning and according to a national funding formula. This formula Skills Council acting chief executive, will write to the calculates funding using the volume of learning that the hon. Member with the information he has requested. A provider delivers at an agreed national funding rate. copy of his reply will be placed in the Libraries of the The formula also takes account of factors specific to House. the provider—such as the curriculum that it offers, and the proportion of students coming from areas of Local Press disadvantage. Local authorities deliver the majority of the £210 million Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Minister of State, Department that is safeguarded annually for informal adult learning. for Business, Innovation and Skills what timetable the This learning is not formula-funded, but is commissioned Office of Fair Trading has set for its review of local through a negotiated process with each local authority. newspapers. [278599] It is a block grant to deliver an agreed volume of provision. The LSC uses final outturn data returns for Kevin Brennan: Following its review of the local media previous years and in-year estimate data in order to merger regime, the OFT submitted a summary of its agree learner numbers to be funded for the following findings and recommendations to the Department for year. Business, Innovation and Skills for it to consider as part of the Digital Britain report. These findings and recommendations, and the OFT’s full report, will be Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, published alongside the final Digital Britain report Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) shortly. how much funding was allocated to local authorities through the Learning and Skills Council as part of the most recent Comprehensive Spending Review over the Overseas Students: Fees and Charges period of the review; [280169] Mr. Oaten: To ask the Minister of State, Department (2) how much funding has been allocated to local for Business, Innovation and Skills what his most authorities through the Learning and Skills Council for recent estimate is of the monetary value of overseas (a) 2007-08, (b) 2008-09 and (c) 2009-10. [280170] student (a) fees and (b) spending to the economy. [281393] Kevin Brennan: The Learning and Skills Council (LSC) allocates funding to learning providers—including school Mr. Lammy [holding answer 19 June 2009]: The sixth forms, FE colleges, independent providers and latest estimates, taken from the “Global Value” report local authorities—where those providers are approved published by the British Council in September 2007, are to deliver publicly-funded further education and skills that international students in further and higher education for learners aged 16 or over. Funding is allocated in were estimated to contribute £2.2 billion in tuition fee respect of an academic year, but the actual amounts and £3.1 billion in other spending in 2003-04. Tuition paid will depend on demand from individuals and and other spending in relation to students on English employers. language courses was estimated at £1.1 billion. Funding allocations data for all LSC-funded providers are available on the LSC website: Personal Care Services: Training www.lsc.gov.uk/providers/funding-policy/allocations Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department These data show that in 2007/08 academic year, over for Business, Innovation and Skills whether his £410 million was allocated to local authorities; the Department funds training programmes which provide allocation in 2008/09 was over £370 million. Allocations skills relevant to the beauty treatment and tanning for 2009/10 are still being finalised. sector; and if he will make a statement. [280079] The majority of the £210 million that is safeguarded annually for informal adult learning is delivered through Kevin Brennan: Funding for further education and local authorities, and therefore comprises a significant skills is administered by the Learning and Skills Council proportion of their funding allocations (around £200 (LSC). The Department for Business, Innovation and million a year over 2007/08 and 2008/09 academic years). Skills does not hold a comprehensive database of learning The rest of the funding they receive supports adult aims that are eligible for LSC funding; this falls within 983W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 984W the remit of the LSC. Beauty therapy is one of the overall increase in resources for frontline teaching, learning learning aims that are eligible for LSC funding, and a and learner support services for post-19 learners of variety of courses fall within the beauty therapy framework. around £140 million between 2009-10 and 2010-11. We The LSC agrees indicative budgets with colleges and expect students in Essex and the Castle Point area to providers prior to the start of the academic year based benefit from this increase. Funding allocations for 2009/10 on the expected delivery of an overall volume of learning. post-19 provision are currently being finalised and will The actual funding paid will depend on the choice of be completed later this month. learning area made by employers and learners. As funding Students: Loans is not allocated at an individual course level, details of the amount made available to support specific qualifications in this sector are not held centrally in the Department. Stephen Williams: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Steel: Prices many people have (a) applied for and (b) received a career development loan to train to become (i) a Mr. Gray: To ask the Minister of State, Department driving instructor and (ii) a teacher in each of the last for Business, Innovation and Skills if the Secretary of five years. [258054] State will make it his policy to support small businesses affected by the changes in the price of steel. [264870] Mr. Simon: The Learning and Skills Council (LSC) administer Career Development Loans (CDLs) on behalf Ian Lucas: Due a significant fall in demand, steel of the Department. Details of the number of loans prices have dropped sharply from the peaks seen in the awarded for approved driver instructor and teacher summer of 2008. Changes in prices are the natural training courses for the last five years are set out in the consequence of market forces and as such it would not following tables. Information on the number of loans be right for the Government to interfere in the market applied for is not collected. in any way. However, if there was firm evidence that Courses undertaken using a CDL are the personal anti-competitive or unfair trade practices were the cause choice of the individual taking out the loan. Changes in then we would press the European Commission to take annual numbers undertaking any particular type of action. course, such as driving instruction, are a reflection of Since the start of the year the Government have changing trends in individual career aspirations of those introduced a range of measures to help increase liquidity applying for loans. and ease credit conditions for small businesses. This is Approved driving instructor courses real help that is focused and funded. It is help that has Number only been made possible due to the fiscal stimulus offered by the Government in the PBR. We have 2007-08 327 recapitalised the banks, agreed to underwrite more than 2006-07 759 £20 billion worth of credit lines and lending and tailored 2005-06 1,756 a package of bank measures—including a new £50 2004-05 2,327 billion Bank of England facility for purchasing high 2003-04 3,242 quality assets—to get bad assets out into the daylight Teacher training courses—post graduate certificate in education and help lending flow again. Number

Students: Finance 2007-08 0 2006-07 5 Bob Spink: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2005-06 5 for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he 2004-05 11 has made of the likely effects on students in (a) Essex 2003-04 4 and (b) Castle Point of the recent changes to the budget of the Learning and Skills Council. [280229]

Kevin Brennan: Students in Essex and elsewhere have CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES already benefited from the increase in investment for further education of 53 per cent. in real terms since Absenteeism: Peterborough 1997. Recent changes which will affect LSC budgets were announced in Budget 2009. The Budget made Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State available an additional £300 million of further education for Children, Schools and Families how many parents capital spending and £122 million to support extra in Peterborough have appeared in court on charges training in England for young people who have been related to the unauthorised absence from school of unemployed for 12 months. As part of DCSF-funded their child in the last (i) six, (ii) 12 and (iii) 24 months. activity, there will be £655 million to support over [281685] 54,000 more young people to take up a guaranteed place at school or college. As part of Budget 2009, the Mr. Coaker: The Ministry of Justice collects and Government committed to delivering an additional £5 publishes data for England and Wales on prosecutions billion of efficiency savings in 2010-11. The then Secretary brought against parents under the Education Act 1996 of State for DIUS wrote to the LSC on 7 May setting for the offence under s444(1) of failing to secure their out expectations on the contribution to those efficiencies child’s regular attendance at school; and for prosecutions from post-19 further education provision. Taking into under s444(1A), the aggravated offence of knowing that account these changes, the LSC will see an estimated their child is failing to attend school regularly. It is 985W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 986W possible, because of the way courts record data, that part of the Building Schools for the Future programme. some section 444 data is also collected under the more The table shows the level of capital funding provided to general heading of various offences under the Education each school project. Local authorities may have Act 1996. supplemented this with additional funding from other The Ministry of Justice collects prosecution data on sources. Commercially sensitive actual cost data is held the basis of police force areas only and not local authority on the Partnerships for Schools cost benchmarking area. Cambridgeshire police force area covers Peterborough database, but release of project-level data may prejudice and the number of parents prosecuted for failing to future public sector negotiations with the private sector. secure their children’s regular school attendance between Capital 2006 to 2007 (latest available data) is detailed in the funding following table. Court proceedings data for 2008 will be (including New available in the autumn of 2009. Local ICT) (£ build/ authority School million) refurb Notes Number of persons proceeded against at magistrates’ courts for offences under the Education Act 1996 S.4441, in Cambridgeshire police force area, 2006 072,3 Lambeth Park Campus 6.2 New build — Number Newcastle Kenton School 2.8 ICT only BSF funding 2006 40 for ICT 2007 44 only 1 Includes the following; Solihull Park Hall School 24.4 New build PFI (a) Failure to secure regular attendance at school. (Education Act 1996 S.444 (1 scheme )(8)). Sheffield Yewlands 16.8 Refurb — (b) Parent knows that their child is failing to attend school regularly and fails Technology College (two without reasonable justification to cause him or her to attend school. (Education phases) Act 1996 S.444(8)(1a)(8a) added by Criminal Justice and Court Services Act 2000 S.72). Solihull Archbishop 24.5 New build — 2 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal Grimshaw Catholic offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found School guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the Derby Sinfin Community 16.5 New build BSF One heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or City School School more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory Pathfinder maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and Cornwall Penryn College 22.8 New build BSF One complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted School from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police Pathfinder forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection South Kings Meadow 1.3 ICT only BSF processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those Tyneside School funding data are used. and for ICT Source: Gateshead only Evidence and Analysis Unit - Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Ministry of Justice Leeds Cockburn College of 17.0 New build — Apprentices: Essex Arts Bradford Titus Salt School 25.0 New build PFI scheme Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Bradford Tong High School 24.8 New build PFI Schools and Families how many hours a week on average scheme 16 to 18 year-olds spent on apprenticeships in each Bradford Buttershaw Business 27.9 New build PFI and Enterprise scheme industrial sector in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point in College [280452] the latest period for which figures are available. Bristol Brislington 32.9 New build PFI Enterprise College scheme Mr. : Apprenticeships for young people Lancashire Thomas Whitham 15.4 New build PFI are normally full-time and the hours that each individual Sixth Form, Burnley scheme spends on their framework each week are a matter for Campus the apprentice and their employer. Some apprentices Lancashire Pendle Vale College, 8.4 New build PFI Pendle Vale Campus scheme work part-time. Information about the number of hours Lancashire Pendle Community 19.0 New build PFI that apprentices work and train each week is not collected High School, Pendle scheme centrally. We have recently consulted on a Specification Vale Campus for Apprenticeship Standards in England including a Lancashire Shuttleworth 18.9 New build PFI proposal to set a minimum number of guided learning College scheme hours per year for all apprentices. Following consideration Leeds Allerton High 21.5 New build PFI of the responses, we expect to publish the Specification School scheme Leeds Pudsey Grangefield 21.1 New build PFI for Apprenticeship Standards in England in August. School scheme Leeds Rodillian School 23.2 New build PFI Building Schools for the Future Programme scheme Leeds Temple Moor High 13.6 New build — Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, School Schools and Families what the cost was of each Manchester Newall Green High 15.9 New build — School and Building Schools for the Future project completed in refurb [279322] 2008; and if he will make a statement. Manchester Cedar Mount High 16.4 New build — School, Gorton and Mr. Coaker: A total of 44 school projects (of which Education Village refurb three were primary schools procured through the Newcastle Manchester Melland High 9.7 New build — local education partnership) were completed in the School, Gorton Education Village calendar year 2008, each benefiting from investment as 987W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 988W

Children In Care: Missing Persons Capital funding (including New Local ICT) (£ build/ Mr. Vara: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, authority School million) refurb Notes Schools and Families (1) pursuant to the answer of 12 June 2009, Official Report, column 1067W, how Manchester St. Paul’s School 15.7 New build — and many of the children who have gone missing from care refurb have not been found; [281167] Newcastle Benfield School 16.8 Refurb — (phase 1 of refurb) (2) what steps the Government is taking to reduce Newcastle Walbottle Campus 31.0 New build PFI the number of children who go missing from care Technology College scheme homes. [281163] Solihull Lanchester School 7.3 New build PFI scheme Dawn Primarolo: Following a consultation, the Waltham Frederick Bremer 18.9 New build PFI Forest School scheme Government plan to publish revised statutory guidance Waltham Kelmscott School 12.4 New build — about children missing from home or care shortly. This Forest and will set out the steps that must be followed whenever refurb any child in care goes missing. This includes the local South Boldon School 1.5 ICT only BSF authority working with partner agencies such as the Tyneside funding and for ICT police, so that there is a systematic response whenever a Gateshead only child in care goes missing from their care placement. South LordLawsonOf 2.1 ICT only BSF Tyneside Beamish School funding The National Minimum Standards for Children’s and for ICT Homes and Fostering Services require that all homes Gateshead only and fostering services should have explicit procedures to Newcastle Thomas Bewick 0.6 ICT only BSF follow when children in their care may be missing or School funding for ICT absent. We will be strengthening these Standards later only this year and will include more specific guidance on Bristol Bristol Metropolitan 26.6 New build PFI action which should be taken when a child goes missing College scheme from a residential or foster home. Kent Ifield School 7.8 New build — The Government have also launched the Young Lambeth The Michael Tippett 11.9 New build — School Runaways Action Plan. This brings together cross Stoke Sandon High School 16.2 New build Government action on children who run away from home or care and places particular emphasis on vulnerable Lewisham New Woodlands 0.2 ICT only BSF School funding children such as those who have been trafficked. More for ICT generally, a national indicator on young runaways, only introduced in April this year, now requires LAs to have Lewisham Greenvale School 0.2 ICT only BSF in place protocols for the inter-agency response to run-aways funding for ICT and missing children, including preventative measures. only The requested information on the number of children Lewisham Forest Hill School 1.0 ICT only BSF funding who have gone missing from care who have not been for ICT found is not held centrally by the Department. It is not only possible to derive the number of children missing from Lewisham Prendergast— 0.9 ICT only BSF care who have never been found, because we can only Ladywell Fields funding College for ICT account for the situation at the end of the last completed only data collection year. Children missing at the end of the data year may subsequently return into care. Information In addition three primary schools were procured on looked after children can be found in “Statistical through the Newcastle BSF local education partnership. First Release Children looked after in England (including adoption and care leavers) year ending 31 March 2008”, which is available on the Department’s website via the following link: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000810/ Chemistry: GCE A-level index.shtml Table A3 shows the number looked after at 31 March Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, each year by their placement type at 31 March, which Schools and Families pursuant to the answer of includes a category to show those looked after who 26 February 2009, Official Report, column 1073W, on were absent from their agreed placement at that time. GCE A-level, how many and what percentage of the At 31 March 2008, the number absent from their agreed 187 schools that did not enter any pupils for an A-level placement was 150. in chemistry in 2006-07 entered at least one pupil for an A-level in applied science in that year. [278960] Children: Databases Mr. Coaker: Of the 187 maintained mainstream schools that did not enter any pupils for an A-level in chemistry Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for in 2006/07, 22 (12 per cent.) entered at least one candidate Children, Schools and Families how much had been for a single or double award A-level in applied science in spent on ContactPoint on the latest date for which the same year. figures are available. [267466] 989W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 990W

Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 27 March 2009]: Dawn Primarolo: The Children and Family Court Expenditure on the ContactPoint Project from 2005-06 Advisory and Support Service (CAFCASS) has not to 31 March 2009 is forecast to be £167.2 million, refused any contract extensions for employees over the including £2.2 million of pre-project costs. age of 65 years in the last 12 months. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families when he plans to Further Education: Essex recommence data feeding from national systems into ContactPoint. [271500] Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 27 April 2009]: Schools and Families what proportion of children resident Data feed from national systems will re-commence once in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point were in further all local authority ContactPoint management teams education (i) in 1997 and (ii) on the latest date for which have been given access to ContactPoint. information is available. [280446] Children: Protection Mr. Iain Wright: The information requested is shown Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for in the table for Essex local education authority(LEA). Children, Schools and Families how many people have This information is not available below LEA level. contacted Ofsted’s safeguarding children whistleblower Proportion of 16 and 17-year-olds1 in Essex LEA in education and hotline since its inception. [278971] Work Based Learning Percentage Dawn Primarolo: This is a matter for Ofsted. HM End 1997 End 2007 Chief Inspector, Christine Gilbert, has written to the hon. Member and a copy of her reply has been placed Full-time further education in the House Libraries. Age 16 71 75 Letter from Christine Gilbert, 15 June 2009: Age 17 57 62 Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as All aged 16 and 17 64 69 Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for a response. A total of 329 nine calls have been made to Ofsted’s safeguarding children whistleblower hotline since its inception on 1 April 2009. All education and The majority of these were queries about childcare registration Work Based issues. However, 11 of these calls qualified under the Whistleblower Learning procedures and have been handled accordingly. Three calls were Age 16 80 83 received in April, five in May and a further three between 1 and Age 17 69 72 12 June 2009. All aged 16 and 17 74 78 Any which relate to the safeguarding of individual children are 1 The age of a learner is measured at the beginning of the academic forwarded to our Compliance, Investigation and Enforcement year, 31 August. section (CIE), who will take action to ensure that the safety of the Source: child concerned is secured. Participation in Education, Training and Employment by 16-18 Year A copy of this reply has been sent to right hon. Dawn Primarolo Olds in England MP, Minister for State for Children, Young People and Families, http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000849/index.shtml and will be placed in the Library of both Houses. Class Sizes GCE A-Level

Mr. Kidney: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many children were taught in Schools and Families how many and what proportion classes of more than 30 pupils in each local authority of maintained mainstream schools did not enter any area in each of the last 10 years. [278341] pupils for an A level in English in each year since 2005. Mr. Coaker: The information requested has been [277960] placed in the House Libraries. The table supplied shows the numbers of pupils in Mr. Coaker: The information is given in the following classes of 31 or more, where the class is taught by one table: teacher for primary and secondary schools combined. Number of Percentage of Latest figures for classes taught by more than one maintained maintained teacher can be found on the departmental website at: mainstream schools mainstream schools http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000786/ that did not enter that did not enter LATablesWeb.xls any pupils for a any pupils for a GCE A level in GCE A level in (tables B12 and B14). English English

Family Courts: Personnel 2005 38 2.2 2006 31 1.8 Susan Kramer: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 32 1.8 Children, Schools and Families how many Children 2008 22 1.3 and Family Court Advisory Support Service employees Note: over the age of 65 years have been refused contract Only schools published in the AATs have been included. extensions in the last 12 months for which figures are Source: available. [281623] School and College Achievement and Attainment Tables (AAT) data. 991W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 992W

GCSE In order to protect confidentiality, it is usual and accepted practice to only give achievement and attainment Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, performance information for schools with more than Schools and Families (1) what proportion of pupils 10 pupils in the particular category (in this case, more achieved five GCSEs at grades A* to B in each year than 10 pupils entered for GCSE history). However, as since 1997; and if he will make a statement; [277514] no schools are named, it is possible to simply give a count of the number of schools. It would not be possible (2) what proportion of pupils achieved five GCSEs to name schools with fewer that 10 pupils in the particular at grade A* to B in each year since 1997; and if he will category. make a statement. [277899] Mainstream maintained schools in which no pupil achieved a grade C or above in GCSE history Mr. Coaker: The information is given in the following All schools table: Number of Number of Percentage of pupils achieving five or more A*-B grades at GCSE schools with schools with Percentage more than 10 or fewer 10 pupils pupils 1996/97 25.6 attempting attempting 1997/98 24.9 GCSE GCSE history history Number Percentage 1998/99 26.1 1999/00 26.9 2008 3 139 142 4.9 2000/01 27.0 2006 7 113 120 4.0 2001/02 27.6 2003 10 102 112 3.8 2002/03 27.5 2000 12 94 106 3.6 2003/04 27.7 1997 23 114 137 4.6 2004/05 29.1 Mainstream maintained schools in which no pupil achieved a grade G 2005/06 29.6 or above in GCSE history 2006/07 30.0 All schools 2007/08 32.7 Number of Number of Note: schools with schools with Figures include achievements in full GCSEs and vocational GCSEs. more than 10 or fewer Source: 10 pupils pupils Achievement and Attainment Tables data. attempting attempting Figures prior to 2004/05 relate to 15-year-olds (age at GCSE GCSE history history Number Percentage start of academic year, i.e. 31 August) in all schools. Figures for 2004/05 onwards relate to pupils at the end 2008 0 134 134 4.6 of Key Stage 4. 2006 0 108 108 3.6 2003 0 99 99 3.3 Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2000 0 87 87 3.0 Schools and Families how many and what proportion 1997 0 103 103 3.4 of maintained mainstream schools did not enter any Note: pupils for a GCSE in (a) geography and (b) history in 1.These figures are derived from the Achievement and Attainment 2008. [278956] Tables data. 2. Figures for 2006 and 2008 relate to the achievements of pupils at the end of KS4. Figures for 1997, 2000 and 2003 relate to 15 year-olds Mr. Coaker: Of all the mainstream maintained schools, (age at start of academic year, i.e. 31 August). 133 (4.3 per cent.) did not enter any pupils for GCSE 3. Only open schools published in the Achievement and Attainment geography in 2008. Tables have been included. Of all the mainstream maintained schools, 96 (3.1 per Grammar Schools cent.) did not enter any pupils for GCSE history in 2008. Data relate to pupils at the end of KS4 and include Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for GCSE only. Children, Schools and Families how many children attended grammar schools in each year since 2007; Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for what proportion of the secondary school population Children, Schools and Families (1) in how many and this figure represented in each year; and if he will make what proportion of mainstream maintained schools no a statement. [280333] pupil has achieved a grade of G or above in GCSE history in each year since 1997; [280442] Mr. Coaker: The requested information is shown in (2) in how many and what proportion of mainstream the table: maintained schools no pupil has achieved a grade of C State-funded secondary1 and grammar schools: number of pupils2—as or above in GCSE history in each year since 1997. at January each year in England [280443] Number of Number of Percentage of pupils attending pupils attending pupils attending grammar secondary grammar Mr. Coaker [holding answer 17 June 2009]: The schools schools schools3 information for 1997, 2000, 2003, 2006 and 2008 is given in the tables. Figures for other years can be 2007 156,800 3,321,530 4.7 provided only at disproportionate cost. 2008 157,410 3,289,000 4.8 993W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 994W

State-funded secondary1 and grammar schools: number of pupils2—as Pupils: Obesity at January each year in England Number of Number of Percentage of pupils attending pupils attending pupils attending Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for grammar secondary grammar Children, Schools and Families what training and schools schools schools3 professional development is provided for teachers of physical education to ensure that children classified as 2009 158,610 3,256,120 4.9 (provisional) overweight and obese receive appropriate assistance to participate in physical activity at school. [278301] 1 Includes middle schools as deemed, and CTCs and academies. 2 Solely registered pupils only. 3 Expressed as a percentage of the number of pupils attending all Mr. Iain Wright: The PE and sport professional secondary schools. development programme is raising the quality of teaching Note: and learning in PE and sport in schools. As part of the Pupil number have been rounded to the nearest 10. programme, schools are supported in carrying out an Source: School Census audit of their professional development needs in PE and sport. Schools can then choose, free of charge, Pre-school Education: Per Capita Costs from a menu of professional development resources designed to address these needs. The programme includes resources aimed specifically at getting young people Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, more active, whatever their circumstances. The recent Schools and Families how many nursery school places Ofsted report - ″Physical Education in Schools, 2005/08″ there are per head of population in each local authority praised the Professional Development programme for area. [281501] the way it was improving the quality of teaching and learning in PE and sport in schools. Dawn Primarolo: All local authorities in England As announced in Healthy Weight, Healthy Lives: have a duty to secure sufficient childcare places to meet One Year On, the Government are currently exploring the requirements of parents in their area in order to the development of a further focus within the PE and enable them to work or undertake education or training Sport Strategy for YoungPeople which specifically helps leading to work. They must also secure free early years overweight and obese children to achieve and maintain provision for pre-school children of a prescribed age. a healthy weight. The Department publishes information on the part-time equivalent number of free early education places filled Pupils: Per Capita Costs by three and four year-olds. This is derived by counting children taking up 12 and a half hours per week as one Mr. Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, place, 10 hours per week as 0.8 places, seven and a half Schools and Families what the funding allocation per hours per week as 0.6 places, five hours per week as 0.4 secondary school pupil is in (a) Northamptonshire places and two and a half hours per week as 0.2 places. and (b) England in 2009-10. [279324] The latest information on the number of free early Mr. Coaker: The Dedicated Schools Grant (DSG) education places filled by three and four year-olds can guaranteed per pupil unit of funding (GUF) for 2009-10 be found in Table 5 of the Statistical First Release for Northamptonshire local authority and England are ″Provision for Children Under Five Years of Age in shown in the following table. There is funding from the England: January 2009″. The latest figures can be found learning and skills council and other grants that support at the following link: the schools budget whose allocations have not yet been http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000848/ finalised for 2009-10. Separate figures are not available index.shtml for secondary schools as funding is not allocated by Information on nursery school places per head of phase. The figures are for all funded pupils aged three to population has not been included. This is because children 15 and are in cash terms. can access their free entitlement across different local authority areas and therefore part time equivalent places 2009-10 DSG GUF are not on an equivalent basis with the local authority population figures. Population figures at this level of Northamptonshire 3,923 disaggregation are also not as reliable as at the national England 4,218 level. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Pre-school Education: Standards Schools and Families what the funding allocation per secondary school pupil is in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point in 2009-10. [281853] Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many (a) maintained Mr. Coaker: The Dedicated Schools Grant (DSG) and (b) independent nurseries in each local authority guaranteed per pupil unit of funding (GUF) for 2009-10 area were placed in special measures in each year since for Essex local authority is £4,067. This is for all funded 2001. [276655] pupils aged three to 15 and is in cash terms. There is funding from the Learning and Skills Council and other Dawn Primarolo: These are matters for Ofsted. The grants that support the schools budget whose allocations Chief Inspector, Christine Gilbert, has written to the have not yet been finalised for 2009-10. Separate figures hon. Member and a copy of her reply has been placed are not available for secondary schools as funding is not in the House Libraries. allocated by phase. 995W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 996W

Schools: Buildings Information on reasons for exclusions is published as follows: Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2006-07 Schools and Families how many maintained (a) Tables 9 and 10 primary and (b) secondary schools operate entirely http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000793/ from (i) temporary and (ii) pre-1919 buildings; and if index.shtml he will make a statement. [281181] 2005-06 Table 8 Mr. Coaker: Asset management data were supplied to the Department by local education authorities, most http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgatewav/DB/SFR/s000733/ recently in 2005. The data showed 18 per cent. and 8 per index.shtml cent. of floor area in pre-1919 buildings for primary 2004-05 schools and secondary schools respectively. With the Table 11 unprecedented levels of central Government capital http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000662/ support for investment in schools, updated information index.shtml could be expected to show lower percentages. 2003-04 The data included information on the amount of Table 11 accommodation in temporary buildings. However, checks http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000582/ indicated that the completeness and quality of this index.shtml information was not good enough for accurate analysis. Temporary accommodation is appropriate where there Schools: Standards is too little time to construct permanent accommodation, or where the need is likely to be short term. In such Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for circumstances, modern, high-quality temporary buildings Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the answer provide a good environment for teaching and learning. of 2 June 2009, Official Report, column 442W, on Where they are new or relocated, they are required to schools: standards, what the name is of each adviser; meet building environmental standards similar to those and how much each has cost in 2008-09. [279911] which apply to permanent buildings. Mr. Coaker [holding answer 15 June 2009]: We do not have information on each individual adviser, or Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, their cost, and to collect this information would involve Schools and Families how many children attend (a) disproportionate cost and contravene data protection primary and (b) secondary schools housed in rules. temporary buildings; and if he will make a statement. [281182] The figure of around £90 million, given in the answer of 2 June, is an estimate of the total cost of field forces Mr. Coaker: Data on school temporary buildings which provide support and challenge to local authorities were supplied to the Department by local education and children’s trusts across the full range of children’s authorities, most recently in 2005. However, the data outcomes. The largest field force supporting school did not show numbers of pupils taught in those buildings. standards is the national strategies and the cost of their Furthermore, checks indicated that the completeness national and regional field force in 2008-09 was around and quality of the data was not good enough for £30 million. However, this includes work on other areas accurate analysis. such as early years and school behaviour. Temporary accommodation is appropriate where there Science: GCSE is too little time to construct permanent accommodation, or where the need is likely to be short term. In such Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, circumstances, modern, high-quality temporary buildings Schools and Families how many and what percentage provide a good environment for teaching and learning. of pupils educated in maintained mainstream schools Where they are new or relocated, they are required to achieved a GCSE in core science and no other science meet building environmental standards similar to those qualification in 2008. [278958] which apply to permanent buildings. Mr. Coaker: Of the pupils at the end of Key Stage 4, Schools: Knives educated in maintained mainstream schools, 79443 (13.5 per cent.) achieved a GCSE in core science and no other1 science qualification in 2008. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 The other sciences that were considered were Double Award Children, Schools and Families how many children Science and Applied Science, Applied Science, Additional Applied have been (a) temporarily and (b) permanently Science, Additional Science, Environmental Science, Physics, excluded from schools for (i) violent behaviour and (ii) Chemistry, and Biology. carrying a knife in each of the last five years. [272968] Special Educational Needs

Mr. Coaker: Reasons for exclusion were collected for Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for the first time in 2003-04. There is no category specifically Children, Schools and Families how many maintained on ’carrying a knife’. There are categories for verbal mainstream secondary schools (a) had between one abuse/threatening behaviour and for physical assault. and nine pupils and (b) 10 or more pupils with a The latest data available is for 2006-07; information statement of special educational needs at the end of on exclusions for 2007-08 is scheduled to be published Key Stage 4 in the latest period for which figures are in the summer. available. [282025] 997W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 998W

Ms Diana R. Johnson: The information requested is process. The investigation process concludes either with as follows: a referral to the hearing process or with a decision that (a) There were 2,542 maintained mainstream schools at which there is no case to answer. between one and nine pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 had The average time taken for cases to be concluded in statements of special educational needs in 2008. each of these processes is provided in the following (b) There were 234 maintained mainstream schools at which table. 10 or more pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 had statements of special educational needs in 2008. Average time taken to conclude complaints The source of this data is the National Pupil Database. Weeks Cases concluded at Financial investigation stage (i.e. no Cases concluded Specialist Schools: Science year case to answer) following a hearing

2006/07 13 78 Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2007/08 12 67 Schools and Families with reference to the answer of 2008/09 12 59 10 November 2008, Official Report, column 900W, on specialist schools: science, how many of the 433 The timescales for considering complaints at each of specialist schools which had chosen science as a these stages is set out in the following tables. specialism at the time of that answer entered one or more pupils for GCSE chemistry in 2008. [278962] Cases concluded at investigating stage Months Mr. Coaker: Of all 433 schools with a specialism in 0to3 3to6 6to12 12to18 Over18 sciences, 311 (71.8 per cent.) entered at least one pupil 2006/07 171 62 16 1 2 1 for GCSE chemistry in 2008. 2007/08 224 59 13 4 0 The source for this answer is the Achievement and 2008/09 222 84 11 2 3 Attainment Tables’ database. Cases concluded at hearing stage 1 Only full GCSEs have been counted. Months 0to3 3to6 6to12 12to18 Over18 Teachers: Complaints 2006/07 0 0 11 68 44 Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2007/08 0 2 57 38 40 Schools and Families how many complaints against 2008/09 0 1 75 51 24 teachers have been (a) investigated, (b) upheld and Note: (c) rejected by the General Teaching Council in each Data is unavailable for the financial year 2005/06. year since 2005; and if he will make a statement. [281177] Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many teachers have been Mr. Coaker: The number of complaints against teachers struck off the teaching register following an investigation that have been investigated upheld and rejected by the by the General Teaching Council in each year since General Teaching Council for England in each year 2001; and if he will make a statement. [281180] since 2005 are set out in the table. Mr. Coaker: The number of prohibition orders preventing Upheld at a teachers from practising as a registered teacher issued Investigated Rejected hearing by the General Teaching Council for England in each 2005 373 244 56 year since 2001 is set out in the table. 2006 360 267 98 Number of prohibition orders 2007 445 311 124 issued 2008 419 315 125 Note: 2001 0 Cases are not always concluded in the year in which they are investigated. 2002 2 2003 6 Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2004 5 Schools and Families (1) what the average time taken 2005 13 for the General Teaching Council to complete its 2006 24 investigation of a teacher following a complaint was in 2007 31 the latest period for which information is available; and 2008 25 if he will make a statement; [281178] (2) how many investigations by the General Teaching Council following a complaint against a teacher took Teachers: Essex more than (a) three months, (b) six months, (c) 12 months and (d) 18 months to complete in each year Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for since 2005; and if he will make a statement. [281179] Children, Schools and Families how many (a) teachers and (b) classroom assistants were employed in schools Mr. Coaker: When considering complaints about teachers in (i) Essex and (ii) Castle Point (A) in 1997 and (B) on the General Teaching Council for England has two the latest date for which information is available. distinct processes; an investigation process and a hearing [280448] 999W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1000W

Mr. Coaker: The following table provides the full-time Teaching Assistants: Qualifications equivalent number of teachers and teaching assistants employed in local authority maintained schools in the Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for former Essex local authority area and Castle Point Children, Schools and Families how many teaching parliamentary constituency, January 1997 and 2008. assistants in each (a) primary and (b) secondary Full-time equivalent teachers and teaching assistants in local authority school have attained Higher Level Teaching Assistant maintained schools—years January 1997 and 2008 status. [278082] Coverage: Essex local authority and Castle Point parliamentary constituency 2008 Mr. Coaker [holding answer 4 June 2009]: The 1997 Essex information has been placed in the House Libraries. Former Essex They provide the number of higher level teaching assistants Essex (post 1 LA Castle April Castle in each local authority maintained nursery/primary and areas Point3 Southend Thurrock 1998) Point3 secondary school in England, as collected by the January 2008 School Census, the latest information available. Teachers1 12,580 710 1,740 1,200 11,150 730 Teaching 1,720 80 610 590 4,410 280 Young People: Greater London assistants2,3 1 Qualified and unqualified teachers. 2 Teaching assistants include teaching assistants, special needs support staff and Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for minority ethnic pupil support staff. 2008 figures also include higher level teaching assistants. Children, Schools and Families what assessment has 3 School Census and the Annual survey of teachers in service and teacher been made of the effectiveness of the Young London vacancies,618g (Essex teacher numbers). Matters Agenda launched by the Government Office Note: Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. for London in 2006. [278692] Dawn Primarolo: The Government Office for London Teachers: Males (GOL) commissioned an independent stocktake of Young London Matters (YLM) in February 2009. The purpose of the stocktake was to review Young London Matters’ Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for focus and impact and enable GOL to make informed Children, Schools and Families (1) in which wards decisions about its direction for the coming year. there are no primary schools with a qualified male Stakeholders were surveyed in March and April 2009 teacher; [274694] and asked to comment on what YLM had done well, (2) pursuant to his letter of correction of 4 December where it could have improved and what its focus in the 2008 to the hon. Member for East Worthingand Shoreham, coming year should be. We are aiming to publish this in Deposited Paper DEP2008-2997, to the answer of due course. 28 October 2008, Official Report, column 596W, on teachers: males, how many primary schools with no Youth Services qualified male teachers there were in each ward in 2008. [274696] Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how much has been Mr. Coaker: A table that provides the names of spent on MyPlace from the public purse to date; how Census Area Statistic (CAS) wards that have nursery or much has been spent on each MyPlace centre to date; primary schools without any full or part-time male and what estimate he has made of the running costs of qualified teacher and the number of schools in each of each such centre in the next five years. [282024] these to which this applies has been placed in the House Libraries. The information is for January 2008. Dawn Primarolo: We have allocated £240 million to 62 projects to date. A full list showing funding allocations for each of these projects is shown in Annex 1. Teachers: Training Annex 1: grant allocations to MyPlace projects as at 23 June 2009 £

Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Pegasus Theatre—Building the Oxfordshire 1,800,000.00 Children, Schools and Families what the (a) target Future number of places and (b) number of places filled for Minehead EYE Somerset 3,155,856.00 (i) mathematics, (ii) physics and (iii) chemistry teacher Sutton Life Centre Wandsworth 4,074,688.00 trainees at each teacher training institution was in each Shoeburyness Youth Centre Southend-on-Sea 2,988,362.00 of the last three years. [260810] New Life Centre Hartlepool 4,516,000.00 New Horizon Youth Centre Camden 1,500,000.00 Mr. Coaker: The Department sets the number of Bradley Youth Hub Lancashire 1,335,533.00 places for recruitment to initial teacher training (ITT) PRIMETIME Bournemouth 1,300,000.00 at sector level. ITT providers are allocated training Blackburn Youth Zone Blackburn with 5,000,000.00 Darwen places based on a bidding process carried out by the My Place Chesterfield Derbyshire 3,108,226.00 Training and Development Agency for Schools (TDA) Carlisle Youth Zone Cumbria 4,980,234.00 and providers are encouraged to set aspirational recruitment The Hub Kent 2,200,000.00 targets for themselves. A table showing the number of Dawlish Youth Centre Devon 1,700,000.00 allocated places and new entrants to ITT courses in The Hub Durham 4,951,830.00 Mathematics, Physics and Chemistry in 2006-07, 2007-08 TAB Centre Plus Enfield 2,168,228.00 and 2008-09 has been placed in the House Libraries. 1001W Written Answers24 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 1002W

Annex 1: grant allocations to MyPlace projects as at 23 June 2009 Annex 1: grant allocations to MyPlace projects as at 23 June 2009 £ £

OPEN Central Norfolk 1,256,571.00 Southside Regeneration Youth Bath and North 2,036,473.00 Green Rivers Centre Walsall 1,287,183.00 Project East Somerset The Young Persons Village Stoke on Trent 4,800,000.00 OurPlace ‘Where there will be more Knowsley 4,999,274.00 young people than adults’ Access all Areas Somerset 3,922,000.00 The Buzz Halton 2,500,000.00 Chesterton’s Vision Staffordshire 4,389,474.00 Myplace@Vine Lane (MP@V) Newcastle-upon- 4,924,422.00 Tuned In Redcar and 4,946,280.00 Tyne Cleveland The Roundwood Centre—A Beacon Brent 4,997,151.00 Southpoint—the Blackpool Youth Blackpool 3,996,049.00 for Young People in Brent Hub Centre Plashet Young Peoples Hub Newham 4,980,000.00 The XCHANGE Project Suffolk 4,750,500.00 Myplace in Doncaster Doncaster 5,000,000.00 Trafford Youth Village Trafford 4,999,951.00 Oldham Youth Zone Oldham 4,994,577.00 Middlesbrough Myplace at the Middlesbrough 4,262,062.00 Custom House The Big Hub Leeds 4,979,376.00 ExtremeConnexions’ Hertfordshire 4,999,684.00 Hinckley Club for Young People Leicestershire 4,505,415.00 Toxteth Youth and Sports Centre Liverpool 2,300,000.00 The Salmon Youth Centre Phase 2 Southwark 1,118,679.00 The HUT—One Hut, Five Towns, Wakefield 5,000,000.00 Myplace at Westfield Folk House Nottinghamshire 5,000,000.00 Many Talents Young Peoples Centre Leicester City Youth Hub Leicester 5,000,000.00 Hornsey Road Baths Youth Centre London Borough of 3,547,720.00 Islington Manchester Youth Zone (Harpurhey) Manchester 5,000,000.00 Rotherham myplace (RMP— Rotherham 3,356,750.00 The Phoenix Centre West Sussex 1,500,000.00 working title) Dream Street Havering 4,704,492.00 Hackney’s Youth Hubbz Hackney 4,990,902.00 TeenSpace Shrewsbury and Shropshire 3,900,000.00 Youth Centerprise Birmingham 4,998,500.00 TeenSpace Oswestry Total — 240,097,612.00 Thamesmead Youth Leisure Zone Bexley 5,000,000.00 The Y—Stoke Aldermoor Coventry 2,177,748.00 A further £31.6 million is expected to be allocated to Inspiration Centre additional projects in December 2009. Hastings Youth Hub East Sussex 4,246,275.00 Culture Fusion Bradford 5,000,000.00 MyPlace is a capital programme and therefore includes no running cost funding. It is a programme that local MYplace in Solihull Solihull 4,990,000.00 authorities, third, private and public sector partners The Showrooom Lincolnshire 4,842,500.00 and young people work together to plan, deliver and The Peoples’ Place Sheffield 2,144,595.00 operate financially sustainable projects. As part of the The Pitch—A Place to Go Harrow 4,198,000.00 MyPlace assessment process, projects were asked to Integrating Youth Project Birmingham 4,999,802.00 provide robust plans and commitments for financing ICE Centre Stockton-on-Tees Stockton-on-Tees 4,995,250.00 (Inspiration, Creativity and ongoing running costs and to ensure long term Entertainment) sustainability. Information on estimated running costs MyPlace Bristol Bristol 5,000,000.00 for each MyPlace facility is not currently held centrally. Parkfield Torbay 4,875,000.00 The NGY Nottingham 4,906,000.00 [Continued in Column 1003W]

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 24 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 777 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued Afghanistan ...... 778 Middle East ...... 786 Development Agenda ...... 782 Ukraine...... 777 Education (Pakistan) ...... 783 Fairtrade ...... 785 Humanitarian Assistance (Pakistan)...... 780 PRIME MINISTER ...... 786 Middle East ...... 784 Engagements...... 786 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 24 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 57WS HEALTH...... 62WS Report to Parliament on Civil Service Cervical Screening...... 62WS Delegations/Authorisations...... 57WS Employment Strategy (Learning Disabilities)...... 63WS CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 57WS Sports Betting Integrity Panel...... 57WS JUSTICE...... 64WS DEFENCE...... 58WS Sentencing Guidelines Council Annual Report ...... 64WS Afghanistan Air Support ...... 58WS Defence and National Rehabilitation Centre Feasibility Study ...... 59WS NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 64WS People Pay and Pensions Agency ...... 60WS Consultative Group on the Past ...... 64WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 60WS Offshore Energy Strategic Environmental TREASURY ...... 57WS Assessment ...... 60WS Financial Services Authority Annual Report ...... 57WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 24 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 976W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued Apprentices...... 976W Apprentices: Essex ...... 985W Apprentices: Essex ...... 976W Building Schools for the Future Programme ...... 985W Apprentices: Local Government ...... 977W Chemistry: GCE A-level ...... 987W Apprentices: Public Sector ...... 977W Children: Databases...... 988W Building Colleges for the Future Programme ...... 977W Children In Care: Missing Persons...... 988W Education: Procurement ...... 978W Children: Protection...... 989W Further Education: North Yorkshire ...... 978W Class Sizes...... 989W Gambling: Competition ...... 979W Family Courts: Personnel...... 989W Higher Education: Cambridgeshire...... 979W Further Education: Essex...... 990W Higher Education: Peterborough ...... 980W GCE A-Level ...... 990W Jaguar Land Rover...... 980W GCSE ...... 991W Learning and Skills Council: Consultants...... 980W Grammar Schools...... 992W Learning and Skills Council: Finance ...... 981W Pre-school Education: Per Capita Costs...... 993W Learning and Skills Council: Manpower...... 982W Pre-school Education: Standards ...... 993W Local Press...... 982W Pupils: Obesity ...... 994W Overseas Students: Fees and Charges...... 982W Pupils: Per Capita Costs...... 994W Personal Care Services: Training ...... 982W Schools: Buildings...... 995W Steel: Prices...... 983W Schools: Knives...... 995W Students: Finance ...... 983W Schools: Standards...... 996W Students: Loans ...... 984W Science: GCSE ...... 996W Special Educational Needs...... 996W CABINET OFFICE...... 974W Specialist Schools: Science ...... 997W Cancer ...... 974W Teachers: Complaints...... 997W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 975W Teachers: Essex ...... 998W Departmental Security ...... 975W Teachers: Males ...... 999W Government Departments: ICT ...... 975W Teachers: Training...... 999W Non-Departmental Public Bodies ...... 975W Teaching Assistants: Qualifications...... 1000W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES...... 984W Young People: Greater London ...... 1000W Absenteeism: Peterborough ...... 984W Youth Services...... 1000W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 956W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Asylum ...... 956W continued Council Housing...... 956W School Milk ...... 944W Council Housing: Finance ...... 956W Veterinary Laboratories Agency: Consultants...... 945W Demos...... 957W Waste Disposal: EC Countries ...... 945W Departmental Correspondence ...... 957W Departmental Energy...... 957W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 964W Home Information Packs...... 958W Afghanistan: Detainees...... 964W Housing ...... 958W China: British Nationality...... 964W Housing: Construction...... 958W Departmental Carbon Emissions ...... 964W Housing: Low Incomes ...... 959W Departmental Cleaning Services ...... 965W Local Government Finance: South West...... 960W Departmental Electricity...... 965W Local Government: Public Relations...... 960W Departmental Resignations...... 965W Local Government: Young People ...... 961W Departmental Work Experience...... 966W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 961W Diplomatic Service: Gifts and Endowments...... 966W Non-domestic Rates: Ports...... 962W Eritrea: Human Rights ...... 966W Social Rented Housing...... 962W European Anti-Fraud Office ...... 967W Social Rented Housing: Construction ...... 962W European Commission...... 967W Temporary Accommodation: Costs ...... 963W HMS Poseidon...... 967W Temporary Accommodation: Peterborough...... 963W International Renewable Energy Agency...... 968W Thurrock Thameside Urban Development Laos: Prisoners ...... 968W Corporation...... 963W Pakistan: Ethnic Groups...... 969W Urban Areas: Regeneration...... 963W Royal Visits ...... 969W Somalia: Piracy ...... 969W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 949W Sudan: Peace Negotiations...... 969W Departmental Data Protection...... 949W Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 970W Departmental Energy...... 949W Uganda: Armed Conflict ...... 970W Departmental Finance ...... 950W Zimbabwe ...... 971W Departmental Food...... 950W Departmental Press: Subscriptions ...... 950W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 883W Gambling: Internet ...... 951W Antisocial Behaviour...... 883W Licensed Premises: Gambling ...... 952W Crime...... 883W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 952W DNA: Databases...... 884W Playing Fields...... 953W Entry Clearances...... 884W Sport: Norwich ...... 953W Entry Clearances: Afghanistan ...... 885W Sports: Finance...... 955W Entry Clearances: Pakistan ...... 885W Tourism: Economic Situation...... 955W Entry Clearances: United Arab Emirates ...... 886W Firearms: Crime...... 886W DEFENCE...... 898W Human Trafficking ...... 889W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 898W Human Trafficking: Prosecutions...... 890W Armed Forces: Northern Ireland ...... 899W Parenting Contracts ...... 891W Defence...... 899W Police: Essex...... 891W Departmental Food...... 899W Employment Tribunals Service...... 900W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 881W Iraq: Peacekeeping Operations...... 901W Africa: Overseas Aid ...... 882W Nuclear Weapons...... 902W Faith Organisations...... 881W Nuclear Weapons: Public Opinion ...... 902W Internally Displaced Persons: Sri Lanka ...... 881W Nuclear Weapons: Transport ...... 902W Palestinian West Bank...... 881W Refugee Camps: Algeria...... 882W ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 971W Rural Areas...... 882W Postal Votes...... 971W Sudan: Overseas Aid...... 883W Postal Votes: Lancashire ...... 971W JUSTICE...... 913W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Arson: Greater London ...... 913W AFFAIRS...... 937W Community Legal Advice: Telephone Services...... 914W Bees: Research ...... 937W Departmental Energy...... 915W Bovine TB Eradication Group ...... 937W Departmental Land ...... 916W Bovine Tuberculosis: Vaccination...... 938W Driving Under Influence...... 916W Centre for Environment Fisheries and Electorate...... 919W Aquaculture Science: Consultants...... 938W National Offender Management Information Dairy Farming ...... 939W System ...... 919W Departmental Research...... 939W Prison Service: Pay...... 919W Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Prisoners ...... 920W Regulations 2007...... 940W Prisoners: Offender Assessment System ...... 924W Food ...... 940W Prisoners Release: Reoffenders...... 923W Genetically Modified Organisms: Crops ...... 941W Prisons: West Lancashire ...... 925W Landfill ...... 941W Probation ...... 925W Oil: Waste Disposal...... 942W Probation ...... 926W Recycling: Hampshire ...... 943W Probation: Databases ...... 927W Recycling: Peterborough ...... 943W Probation: North Yorkshire ...... 927W Renewable Energy: Waste ...... 944W Probation: South Yorkshire...... 928W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE—continued TRANSPORT—continued Pupils: Absenteeism ...... 929W Fishing Vessels ...... 909W Remand in Custody: Children...... 929W Humber Bridge: Tolls...... 909W Young Offenders ...... 937W Maritime and Coastguard Agency: Pay ...... 910W Public Transport: Hampshire...... 910W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 948W Public Transport: Peterborough ...... 911W Departmental Data Protection...... 948W Royal Family: Travel ...... 911W Departmental Location...... 948W Southern: Railway Stations ...... 912W Prisoners Release: Northern Ireland ...... 949W Vehicle and Operator Services Agency: Consultants...... 912W OLYMPICS ...... 945W Vehicle and Operator Services Agency: Departmental Energy...... 945W Manpower ...... 912W Departmental Lost Property ...... 946W Vehicle and Operator Services Agency: Pay ...... 913W Olympic Delivery Authority: Manpower...... 946W TREASURY ...... 891W Olympic Games 2012: Facilities ...... 947W Banks: Regulation...... 891W Olympic Games 2012: Gun Sports ...... 947W Capital Gains Tax ...... 892W Olympic Games 2012: Tourism ...... 948W Child Benefit...... 892W Corporation Tax: Business...... 892W TRANSPORT ...... 903W Departmental Manpower...... 893W A303 ...... 903W Departmental Work Experience...... 893W Airports ...... 903W Equitable Life Assurance Society...... 893W Aviation: Fees and Charges...... 904W Government Departments: Standards...... 893W Aviation: Noise ...... 905W Kaupthing Bank: Compensation ...... 894W Birmingham Airport: Air Pollution ...... 905W National Insurance Contributions ...... 894W Bus Services: Concessions ...... 906W Public Expenditure...... 895W Departmental Conditions of Employment...... 906W Royal Bank of Scotland: Pay ...... 895W Departmental Data Protection...... 906W Social Security Benefits: Families...... 895W Departmental Electricity...... 907W Taxation: Telecommunications...... 896W Departmental Food...... 907W VAT: Training ...... 897W Departmental Plants ...... 908W Welfare Tax Credits: Overpayments ...... 897W Disability Discrimination Act ...... 908W Working Tax Credit ...... 897W Exhaust Emissions: Essex ...... 908W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 898W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Wednesday 24 June 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 777] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister

Speaker’s Statement [Col. 797]

Opposition Day [14th allotted day] Iraq Inquiry [Col. 800] Motion—(Mr. Hague)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(David Miliband)—on a Division, agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Taxi Drivers (Assault) [Col. 912] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Middle East [Col. 239WH] Nitrate Vulnerable Zones [Col. 260WH] Equitable Life [Col. 268WH] School Governing Bodies (Appeals) [Col. 292WH] Pet Passports [Col. 299WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 57WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 881W] [see index inside back page]