Fifth Session, 38th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Monday, March 2, 2009 Afternoon Sitting Volume 39, Number 2

the honourable , speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Fifth Session, 38th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Joan McIntyre Deputy Premier and Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Ron Cantelon Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development...... Hon. Tom Christensen Minister of State for Childcare...... Hon. Minister of Community Development...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Minister of State for Mining...... Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of Environment and Minister Responsible for Climate Action...... Hon. Minister of Finance and Minister Responsible for the Olympics...... Hon. Minister of Forests and Range...... Hon. Minister of Health Services...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Minister of Labour and Citizens' Services...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development and Minister Responsible for the Asia-Pacific Initiative...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the OfficialO pposition...... Carole James Deputy Speaker...... Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Sue Hammell Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Harry Bloy Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Legislative Librarian...... Jane Taylor Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Clayburn...... Hon. John van Dongen Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford–Mount Lehman...... Hon. Michael de Jong Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Alberni-Qualicum...... Scott Fraser Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bulkley Valley–Stikine...... Dennis MacKay Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George North Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... East Kootenay Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Westwood Burnaby-Willingdon...... John Nuraney Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burquitlam Burquitlam...... Harry Bloy Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Mount Robson Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey–Panorama Ridge Cariboo South...... Charlie Wyse Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Chilliwack-Kent...... Hon. Barry Penner Cantelon, Hon. Ron (L)...... Nanaimo-Parksville Chilliwack-Sumas...... Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Comox Valley...... Vacant Christensen, Hon. Tom (L)...... Okanagan-Vernon Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Chudnovsky, Dave (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Cowichan-Ladysmith...... Doug Routley Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Valerie Roddick Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... West Kootenay–Boundary East Kootenay...... Hon. Bill Bennett Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Esquimalt-Metchosin...... Maurine Karagianis Cubberley, David (NDP)...... Saanich South Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)...... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Kamloops...... Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–North Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Evans, Corky (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Kelowna–Lake Country...... Al Horning Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kelowna-Mission...... Sindi Hawkins Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria-Hillside Malahat–Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni-Qualicum Maple Ridge–Mission...... Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nanaimo-Parksville...... Hon. Ron Cantelon Hawes, Randy (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Nelson-Creston...... Corky Evans Hawkins, Sindi (L)...... Kelowna-Mission New Westminster...... Chuck Puchmayr Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead North Coast...... Gary Coons Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver-Burrard North Island...... Claire Trevena Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Katherine Whittred Horgan, John (NDP)...... Malahat–Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Seymour...... Daniel Jarvis Horning, Al (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Ilich, Olga (L)...... Richmond Centre Okanagan-Vernon...... Hon. Tom Christensen James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Okanagan-Westside...... Jarvis, Daniel (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Peace River North...... Vacant Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton–Okanagan Valley...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Westwood...... Hon. Iain Black Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Yale‑Lillooet Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George North...... Hon. Pat Bell Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Prince George–Mount Robson...... Hon. Shirley Bond Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack-Sumas Prince George–Omineca...... John Rustad Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Richmond Centre...... McGinn, Jenn (NDP)...... Vancouver-Fairview Richmond East...... Hon. Linda Reid McIntyre, Hon. Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Richmond-Steveston...... MacKay, Dennis (L)...... Bulkley Valley–Stikine Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Nuraney, John (L)...... Burnaby-Willingdon Saanich South...... David Cubberley Oppal, Hon. Wally, QC (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Kent Skeena...... Robin Austin Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Puchmayr, Chuck (NDP)...... New Westminster Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Reid, Hon. Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey–Panorama Ridge...... Jagrup Brar Richmond, Claude (L)...... Kamloops Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Roddick, Valerie (L)...... Delta South Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Cowichan-Ladysmith Surrey–White Rock...... Hon. Gordon Hogg Rustad, John (L)...... Prince George–Omineca Vancouver-Burrard...... Spencer Herbert Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fairview...... Jenn McGinn Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. Wally Oppal, QC Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kensington...... David Chudnovsky Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vancouver-Langara...... Vacant Thorpe, Rick (L)...... Okanagan-Westside Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell van Dongen, Hon. John (L)...... Abbotsford-Clayburn Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Whittred, Katherine (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Wyse, Charlie (NDP)...... Cariboo South Victoria-Hillside...... Rob Fleming Yap, John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston West Kootenay–Boundary...... Katrine Conroy Vacant...... Comox Valley West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Vacant...... Peace River North West Vancouver–Garibaldi...... Hon. Joan McIntyre Vacant...... Vancouver-Langara Yale-Lillooet...... Harry Lali

Party Standings: Liberal 42; New Democratic 34; Vacant 3

CONTENTS

Monday, March 2, 2009 Afternoon Sitting

Routine Proceedings

Page

Introductions by Members...... 14091

Point of Privilege (Speaker's Ruling)...... 14093

Statements (Standing Order 25b)...... 14093 SUCCESS services for immigrants R. Lee Women's Memorial March and status of aboriginal women S. Fraser Settlement workers in schools program J. Yap Festival du Bois D. Thorne Paul-Jean Lavoie and Marc Pelech D. Hayer Sage Birchwater C. Wyse

Oral Questions...... 14095 Use of government staff for B.C. Liberal Party fundraising L. Krog Hon. W. Oppal J. Horgan Orca Bay donation to B.C. Liberal Party J. Horgan Hon. W. Oppal Cost of Port Mann bridge project M. Karagianis Hon. K. Falcon Port Mann bridge toll contract B. Ralston Hon. K. Falcon Release of interim report on Frank Paul inquiry M. Farnworth Hon. W. Oppal Community Living B.C. public relations contract J. McGinn Hon. R. Coleman Child care spaces in Whistler C. Trevena Hon. L. Reid Meat inspection regulations C. Wyse Hon. M. Polak

Petitions...... 14101 L. Krog

Point of Privilege (Reservation of Right)...... 14101 R. Hawes

Petitions...... 14101 B. Simpson D. Routley Committee of Supply...... 14101 Supplementary Estimates: Ministry of Tourism, Culture and the Arts (continued) S. Herbert Hon. B. Bennett Supplementary Estimates: Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure M. Karagianis Hon. K. Falcon N. Macdonald C. Trevena M. Sather K. Conroy N. Simons C. Evans C. Wyse J. Horgan S. Fraser H. Lali 14091

MONDAY, MARCH 2, 2009 We are also joined by the Emperor and Empress 5 of Surrey. That would be Wolfgang Bang! and Elektra The House met at 1:35 p.m. Quecha — be careful; she'll electrocute ya — also known as Rob Neyts and Sterling Hargitt. We're also joined by [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] the managing editor of Xtra! West, Robin Perelle. Finally, I would like to introduce…. Somewhere Introductions by Members circulating in the House today is the cornerstone of the Canadian court system with 40-plus years of community Mr. Speaker: I want to remind members today that I service embracing diversity. That would be the current understand there are a number of guests, so if we could reigning Empress of Canada, ted northe, not to be keep the introductions fairly short. confused with Queen Elizabeth. All the individuals I've had the pleasure of introducing Hon. S. Bond: Sure. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. are integral to their community for promoting diversity Is that because you saw me get on my feet? There's a mes- and understanding. Mr. and Miss Gay Vancouver XXIX sage in that. represent the Rhinestone Phoenix Charity Foundation, Today in the gallery we are joined by the 20 outstand- celebrating 30 years of service. They are elected to serve ing winners of the second annual Premier's Awards Vancouver and the North Shore, raise funds for Covenant for Teaching Excellence and members of the selection House and the Metro Vancouver Dream Centre to help committee for the award. As you would know, Mr. end homelessness. Almost there, Mr. Speaker. Speaker, the award recognizes the best teachers from The Empress and Emperor 5 of Surrey represent the across British Columbia for their dedication to student Imperial and Sovereign Court of Surrey, which has been achievement and learning. working to promote community understanding and Earlier today I was really pleased to be joined by diversity in the Fraser Valley for over ten years and has members from both sides of the House as we celebrated been raising funds for the food bank for those living the accomplishments of these teachers, who tonight will with HIV and AIDS. receive the second annual award at Government House. While they represent many of us here today, I and my Please join me in welcoming members of the selection colleague from Surrey-Whalley are their representatives. committee and our 20 outstanding teachers. I would ask the House to make them welcome and thank them for their service to their communities on behalf N. Macdonald: I'd like to introduce Ian Foss from of B.C. Golden, B.C. He's with the Golden and District Search and Rescue. As members will know, this is an incredible group Hon. W. Oppal: I want to introduce Karen Blake, who of volunteers that has dedicated thousands of volunteer teaches physical education, science, health and careers at hours. Members will remember the miraculous rescue of David Thompson high school in my riding. She's an awe- three-year-old Kate Williams from a crashed plane some some teacher, who has spent so much time with kids in time back. That was Golden Search and Rescue. the neighbourhood and at the school. Ironically, she has Ian has also done a wonderful job of representing search a former student who's also an honouree here this after- and rescue in the media during what has been a difficult noon. I'd like to ask the House to make them welcome. week. He's joined by Rozalyn Milne, and I ask the House to please join me in making them both feel welcome here. C. Trevena: I'd like to recognize some of the teach- ers who are up in the gallery. We do have, from Gold Hon. M. Coell: I have four guests in the chamber River, Rosamund Latvala, who has been working with this afternoon: Diane and Gordon Campbell and Bev aboriginal education at Gold River Secondary and Ray Kissinger from Community Living Victoria, and Stacy Watkins Elementary. Kuiack. Would you please make them all welcome. [1340] But as she says, she couldn't do it without the very S. Herbert: I rise today to introduce some constituents of involved and long and dedicated contribution of Nan mine and some constituents of the member for Surrey- Violet Johnson, who is here as her guest. Nan Violet is an Whalley. We had some trouble getting them into this elder with Mowachaht/Muchalaht and is very much the House because of what I believe to be some antiquated heart and soul of the aboriginal education program that rules here. But they are here, minus tiaras and sashes. Rosamund is here to receive the award for. So I hope the Small steps towards a fuller appreciation of our province's House will make them both very welcome. great diversity. I'd like to introduce to the House Mr. and Miss Gay Hon. J. McIntyre: I would like for the House to Vancouver XXIX — Brent Wildefyre and Jackie A Go-Go, also acknowledge one of the very special teachers here also known as Mark Gueffroy and Kurtis Reeves. today, who has won an award. Not only is she a fabulous 14092 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

teacher, doing her work experience and grad transitions, sector, where he has found opportunities for equipment but she's from Rockridge Secondary, where both my donations, and he has parents and local business owners children attended, and I actually knew her. involved in this program. He has done an exceptional I'd like the House to welcome Susan Atwood. She's job. A number of his students have gone on to operate accompanied by Linda Harrison, a youth worker. I just successful businesses. wanted to give my very special personal as well as pro- I know that because he works so hard in his advanced fessional acknowledgment of the great work they do at woodworking class, he wholly supports our Wood is Rockridge and in West Van. Good policy. I would hope the House will please wel- come Roger Conrod. R. Hawes: In the gallery are two of my constituency [1345] assistants, Janis Butcher and Sharon Kihn. Joining them is Christopher Butcher, Janis's son. He lives in the Hon. G. Abbott: I have three guests in the gallery Victoria area, has never been here to question period and today from the Health Services world. They are Suzanne is looking forward to watching the quiet and decorum Taylor, who is the executive director of the drug use and cooperative attitude that I'm sure will be in evidence optimization branch of the pharmaceutical services here in a few minutes. Could we make them welcome. division of the ministry. Hilary Watson is a student working on a pharmacy degree from the University of R. Sultan: I have two introductions. It's very appro- Washington, and Pam Scott is executive coordinator, priate that on the day the Premier is making awards assistant deputy minister's office, pharmaceutical -ser for teaching excellence in British Columbia, we should vices division. I'd like to ask the House to please make have represented in the precinct and in the galleries them all welcome. 140 students from an institution which is among the best in our superb public school system in this prov- D. Hayer: At this time I'd also like to introduce ince, Handsworth Secondary School in my riding. two teachers, Mr. Marc Pelech from Sullivan Heights They are accompanied by their teacher Mr. Glenn Secondary School, as well as Paul-Jean "P.J." Lavoie, MacKenzie and chaperones. Will the House please along with his wife Nancy Campbell. Paul teaches at make them welcome. Johnston Heights Secondary School. These are two Secondly, also in the House today are members of the exceptional teachers who will be presented with the Insurance Bureau of Canada, including Jim Robinson, Premier's Award for Teaching Excellence later on today. George Bozanin, Ken Keenan, Phil Wynne, Tam Narine, Would the House please make them very welcome. Elizabeth MacDonald, Lindsay Olson, Miranda Lee and Serge Corbeil. Would the House please make them Hon. K. Krueger: Mr. Speaker, mindful of your welcome. admonition to be brief, I didn't want to miss the oppor- tunity to introduce Sherry Stade, a recipient of the R. Thorpe: On behalf of the Speaker and myself, I Premier's Award for Teaching Excellence from Kamloops. am very pleased to introduce to the House, visiting the She taught all my children as they were going through Legislature today from Penticton and Victoria, Jacinta school and continues to distinguish herself these many Ferrari, Cal Meiklejohn, Duncan Meiklejohn, Caitlin years later. She's here with her husband Brian Stade. I Meiklejohn and Jasper Meiklejohn. Both Caitlin and ask the House to make them welcome. Jasper are young aspiring authors from Penticton. Would the House please make them welcome here today. Hon. T. Christensen: I want to join with the House and invite them to join me in welcoming Sharon Hon. G. Hogg: Last Friday after a sleepless night, Mackenzie, who is here, as well, to receive the Premier's the wonderful administrative coordinator from our Award for Teaching Excellence. I have had the pleasure office made her way to the hospital rather than to the of actually attending Sharon's classroom. Legislature and gave birth to a 7-pound-6-ounce daughter What makes that unique is that it was at Coldstream named Kaelyn. Would the House give their best wishes Meadows seniors facility in Vernon, where Sharon to Kaelyn and to her mother, Julie Smart. takes her class for a three-month period — I believe it is — and where the students in grade 6 get to interact Hon. I. Chong: I wanted, as well, to take this with the seniors. It is an excellent example of commun- opportunity to recognize an exceptional teacher in my ity engagement in education, something that Sharon community, Roger Conrod. Roger teaches at Lambrick takes to heart on a number of fronts. I would ask the Park Secondary here in my riding of Oak Bay–Gordon House to please join me in welcoming her. I'm thrilled Head, and he teaches carpentry and career prep. she's here. What has been noticeable about his program is that he has engaged the community. He has engaged the private Mr. Speaker: I'm definitely glad we were brief. Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14093

Point of Privilege thank the many organizers and volunteers who make (Speaker's Ruling) SUCCESS a success every day. [1350] Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, on February 24 the I particularly want to recognize Betty Funston, Joann member for Alberni-Qualicum rose in this place on Wong Bittle, Dr. Raymond Kwan, Tung Chan and Peter what he described as a matter of privilege, alleging that Kwok for their tireless work. I also would like to recog- the Minister of Agriculture and Lands misled the House nize members of the fundraising gala committee: Ricky during question period on February 19 and 23, 2009. On Wu, Johnny Fong, Michele Kwok, Patrick Lau, Sandra Thursday, February 26, the Government House Leader Lau, Karen Woo and Elsa Yap. responded to the member's submission, and I've care- There were great artists there to entertain guests, fully considered both the member's submission and the including Chet Lam, the two-time best folk artist of Government House Leader's reply. I have also carefully the year at the Chinese Music Media Awards; Ha Yu, reviewed the authorities quoted to the House and the who won the best actor at the TVB awards; Annabelle authorities on the law of privilege. Louie; one of the leading singing coaches in Vancouver; Before dealing with the substantive issue, there are Raymond Sham, whose "Song in the Wind" won an one or two technical matters which merit comment. In a award at the First Canadian Songwriter Quest. decision of this House on July 21, 1993, and quoted with Since 1973 SUCCESS has promoted the well-being of approval on July 15, 1996, one of the essential elements Canadians and immigrants and encouraged their inte- required when raising a matter of privilege is that a copy gration into the community. They do this through three of the motion that the member intends to move, should organizations: SUCCESS, SUCCESS Multi-Level Care the Chair find a prima facie case has been established, Society and SUCCESS Foundation. must be tabled. No such proposed motion was tabled by Burnaby has strong ties to SUCCESS, and my constitu- the member for Alberni-Qualicum. ents benefit greatly from their services. They have taken The Government House Leader, in his presentation, a lead role in developing a strong sense of community. also noted that the matter may not have been raised at Announced last December, SUCCESS was selected to the earliest opportunity, and I have considered this sub- manage and operate Hillside Gardens and add 100 new mission as well. However, the substantive portion of the units of subsidized housing for low-income or new arriv- submission from the member for Alberni-Qualicum is als. I know they will make a positive impact at Hillside what the Chair has focused upon in this matter. Gardens by helping residents link into the community The essence of this allegation is that the member and receive the supports they need to succeed. must establish that the minister deliberately misled Will the House please join me in celebrating the suc- the House, a considerable burden which the member cess of SUCCESS. has failed to establish. While there is currently a clear difference of opinion between the member and the WOMEN'S MEMORIAL MARCH and minister as to the number of trees cut, the number of status of aboriginal women logs removed, the groups who were consulted and the end result of the logging operation, I am satisfied that S. Fraser: On February 14 Victoria joined other major this controversy clearly fits the category of a dispute as cities in honouring murdered women and indigen- to facts, which in itself does not qualify as a matter of ous people from across the province. I attended the privilege. rally organized by the students from the University of Let me remind all hon. members that an accusa- Victoria and Camosun College. tion of deliberately misleading the House is a serious The purpose of the rally, which ended here at the accusation and must rest on a solid foundation. I find Legislature, was to create awareness, grieve for the that the necessary elements have not been established loss of the women, show support for the families, and to sustain a charge of deliberately misleading the House, remember the over 500 missing and murdered indigen- and I so rule. ous women from Vancouver Island and all over Canada. Hundreds gathered for the event, and as I marched, Statements I realized I was becoming angry. I recalled how, as a (Standing Order 25b) fledgling MLA in this House and a new Aboriginal Affairs critic in 2005, I had risen in this House to bring SUCCESS SERVICES FOR IMMIGRANTS attention to the same issue. I referred to the Amnesty International report of 2004 entitled Stolen Sisters, and R. Lee: Last Friday night I joined other members of I spoke of the missing and murdered women along this House at a fundraising gala for SUCCESS. I had the Highway 16, the highway of tears. opportunity to be part of the rather joyous and exciting Since then, I and many of my colleagues have met with night, and I know everyone had a good time. I want to families and friends of the missing and murdered women, 14094 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

and to a person, they feel the frustration of abandonment Richmond for their dedication and commitment to help- and frustration and outrage at the failures of the system ing new immigrants become better adjusted, informed to provide the resources necessary for justice. and settled in our community. The Amnesty report identified that social and eco- nomic marginalization of indigenous women — along FESTIVAL DU BOIS with government policies that have torn apart families and communities, as well as the failures of policy and the D. Thorne: Bonjour, mes amis. Today I address the justice system — as contributing to the entire problem. House with the friendly French greeting you can hear Combine that with the worst combination of racism and on the streets of Maillardville, particularly at this time of sexism, and there is an expectation that societal indiffer- year when Festival du Bois is just days away. ence to the welfare and safety of indigenous women will I am particularly proud this year as B.C.'s first and allow the perpetrators, the predators, to escape justice. largest French Canadian settlement celebrates its 100th Here we are four years later. I stand here raising the anniversary. Maillardville's rich history began when brave same issues again, and nothing has changed. pioneers from Quebec settled on the shores of the Fraser So I will paraphrase from my closing statement of River, bringing their music and their culture with them. four years ago. I suggest that if the missing and mur- The largest francophone community west of Manitoba dered women were from an affluent region of B.C. and is the result, and the French language can still be heard involving non-aboriginal women, we would not need to in my constituency, which includes the community of march to raise attention. Maillardville on the south slope of Coquitlam. This coming weekend marks the 20th year for the SETTLEMENT WORKERS Festival du Bois, a folk music festival that spans cul- IN SCHOOLS PROGRAM tures, generations and language. It attracts thousands of visitors who share in the joie de vivre with music of all J. Yap: This past Saturday, February 28, I attended a kinds, dance, cultural workshops and a children's tent. very unique event aimed at helping newly arrived immi- Along with the lineup of amazing musicians repre- grant families. The event was presented by Settlement senting many cultures and favourite performers from Workers in Schools, or SWIS, and was held in my riding past years, I'm especially looking forward to hearing the at Hugh-Boyd Secondary School in partnership with 60 young voices in the chorale des pionniers on Sunday the Richmond board of education. at 3 p.m. I'm doing my best, Mr. Speaker, with correc- Let's Connect: School, Community and You was the tions from my colleague here, who obviously paid more theme, and the concept is very simple yet significant. attention in school than I did. Typically, new immigrants arrive in Canada with young These children, in grades 2 to 6, attend the Ecole des families. After all, it is the desire for a better life for their Pionniers du Maillardville. This is your invitation to join children that drives many to leave their homelands. me at Mackin Park in Coquitlam on March 7 and 8. The Schools are a natural point of entry for new immigrants fun is contagious, and you'll soon be tapping your toes and can provide a perfect venue to learn about and to fiddle music as you dig into tourtière, poutine and access services in their new environment. maple syrup. Merci. [1355] This was a day of workshops to help parents learn about PAUL-JEAN LAVOIE AND MARC PELECH a variety of services available to them. More than 20 infor- mation booths were on hand. Whether it was health care, D. Hayer: I rise today to speak of the foundation of social programs, nutrition, child care services, sports our society — education. I wish to highlight two teachers activities, volunteer opportunities or English-language from my home community of Surrey, who have dedicated training, there was something for every new immigrant their lives to our youth. Paul-Jean "P.J." Lavoie and Marc family trying to figure out how to better settle into life in Pelech are incredibly dedicated to education and to our British Columbia and, in particular, Richmond. kids, and Surrey is very fortunate to have them. About 600 people, both parents and children, attended As a result of their tremendous talent, passion and this event. Let's Connect was supported by the Richmond innovation, I am pleased to report that they are both board of education, and for this I commend board chair among the recipients of the Premier's Award for Teaching Linda McPhail and her fellow school trustees. Excellence who have been honoured today here in I'd also like to thank district administrator Tony Victoria. Paul-Jean "P.J." Lavoie is a teacher at Johnston Corrigan, who was the driving force in bringing the Heights Secondary School, where he teaches student SWIS program to Richmond and in organizing this day, leadership and works to promote community participa- which was a great success. tion and healthy relationships within the school. I ask all members of this House to join me in con- Along with sporting activities such as the Terry Fox gratulating Tony Corrigan and the SWIS team in Run and breast cancer awareness, Paul arranges two Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14095

major drama productions and a dinner theatre event each environmentalist, educator and oral history researcher. year. He works to ensure that teachers in the school have I ask the House to join me in wishing Sage Birchwater the resources they need to develop healthy relationships well as he retires to take on new challenges. with students through his Relationship Always Matters. Marc Pelech teaches visual and media arts at Sullivan Oral Questions Heights Secondary School, where he creates a culture of student achievements and community engagement Use of government staff for through student participation in civic arts projects. His B.C. LIBERAL PARTY FUNDRAISING students worked with the B.C. Dairy Foundation on a Drink More Milk campaign and are working with the L. Krog: Documents obtained by the official oppos- city manager on local beautification and a culture cele- ition show that in 2003 the then Finance Minister was bration project. using his government office and staff to coordinate [1400] an exclusive fundraiser for the B.C. Liberal Party at a Under his guidance, his students have also created a Vancouver Canucks game. sustainable on-line resource for art teachers, parents and My question is to the Minister of Finance. Is using a students interested in participating in applied arts. Both minister's office for raising funds for theB .C. Liberal Party these teachers are being awarded today because of their a standard operating procedure in this government? talent and passion for teaching. But most importantly, they have made a difference in hundreds of lives. They Hon. W. Oppal: I assume that the document that the have fostered the most precious resource for our future, member speaks of is a document obtained as a result that being our children and youth. of a court order, an order made by Madam Justice Bennett of the Supreme Court of British Columbia. In SAGE BIRCHWATER those circumstances, it would be improper for me to answer the question, as it is improper for that member C. Wyse: Today I would like to introduce a man who to ask the question. was born in Victoria, lived in Toronto and settled in the Chilcotin. Sage Birchwater is a well-known and much- Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. loved resident of the Cariboo-Chilcotin. Sage arrived in B.C. in March 1973 from Toronto with only a packsack L. Krog: Well, the minister is always one to criticize on his back and a plan to head to Bella Coola. Sage never my law school education. Let me tell the minister. There made it past the Chilcotin plateau. is nothing at law that prevents this government from In his farewell message to the readers of the Williams answering this important public question here in this Lake Tribune, Sage said that he caught the bug and never House today. left. His friend Diana French called it hearing the drum- These documents show that on March 5, 2003, well- mer. Whatever it's called, Sage joined the many others known Liberal bagman Lyall Knott worked hand in who call the Chilcotin their home. glove with the minister's office to coordinate this While the Chilcotin was supposed to be a short stop fundraiser. The Ministry of Finance is still sitting on on his trip, Sage stayed to make this wonderful area a five-page list of donors who watched the game from his home. During this time he learned much about the a luxury box donated by John McCaw, owner of the people and places on the Chilcotin plateau and shared Vancouver Canucks. They refused to release it, citing this knowledge with the rest of us through his writing. privacy considerations. He is the author of Chiwid; Williams Lake: Gateway to [1405] the Cariboo Chilcotin; as well as contributing to Ulkatcho Again, to the minister: is it acceptable for a govern- Food and Medicine Plants. ment employee to organize a partisan political party Sage is also a journalist and has worked for the Tribune fundraiser through a ministry office? Is it or is it not for almost eight years, covering hard news and human a violation of every acceptable practice for ministers' interest stories. He is respected for his ability to tell the offices and the minister's employees? And shouldn't the truth, share the fascinating and reveal the humorous government know who the government's hand is out to? side of life. Shouldn't the public know who the government is seek- Above all, Sage is a storyteller. Whether he's writing ing electoral favours from in the course of government about current events, history or the people and places of business? the Cariboo-Chilcotin, Sage brings his readers into the story, capturing their attention and imagination with his Hon. W. Oppal: The member well knows that these easy writing style. matters are matters that came before the Supreme Court Sage has won several newspaper awards for his stor- of British Columbia, and it is improper for anyone here ies and photographs. He has also worked as a trapper, to make reference to those matters. 14096 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

Interjections. J. Horgan: I was ten years old, Minister. Wake up. It's 2009. Mr. Speaker: Members. I have in my hand….

Hon. W. Oppal: The documents that were apparently Interjections. released were released pursuant to the order of Madam Justice Bennett, and I'm not going to comment on those. Mr. Speaker: Member, just take your seat for a second. Mr. Speaker: Member has a further supplemental. Let's listen to the question and listen to the answer, please. L. Krog: Well, for the benefit and information of the Continue, Member. Attorney General, the documents are available through FOI, if he cares to look himself. So they're public documents. J. Horgan: I have in my hand a document from It's very clear that the government's employee code of Elections B.C., an organization that the minister may conduct absolutely prohibits this kind of partisan activity. be familiar with. It discloses that the B.C. Liberal Party, The evidence is clear. The former Minister of Finance was on the 23rd of February, 2003, received a $3,000 dona- using his office to help raise funds for the Liberal Party. tion in kind from Orca Bay, the parent group for the How widespread is this practice? What steps will the Vancouver Canucks. That donation was a luxury box so Deputy Premier take to lift the lid off these B.C. Liberal that the member for Vancouver-Fairview at that time Party activities in this Legislature? could take money out of business pockets to seek gain for the Liberal Party. It's clear. It's transparent. Hon. W. Oppal: It's the same question, and I'll answer My question is to the minister. Just after this hockey it the same way. game, Orca Bay signed an agreement with the B.C. Lottery Corporation that improved the bottom line for J. Horgan: I have in my hand what is a public docu- that private company. Can the minister confirm that this ment released by the government of British Columbia. sort of ethical behaviour is standard practice for the B.C. I have it in my possession. I'm happy to give it to the Liberal Party? minister on the other side. It's from Lyall Knott, fundraiser for the B.C. Liberal Hon. W. Oppal: We will respect the principle of Party, to an administrative staff person in the Minister independence of the judiciary. The fact that the member of Finance's office. It says the following: "I am enclosing opposite said…. the names and contact information for the people who either attended the Canucks game on February 23 or sent Interjections. cheques but were unable to attend. Please note one list is marked contributors and the other list is marked attendees Mr. Speaker: Members. so Minister Collins can tailor his response accordingly." My question to the minister: is it acceptable behav- Hon. W. Oppal: "We'll get around it this way," he said. iour to force public servants to do political work on the Well, we're not going to get around ethical conditions public dime? and ethical issues this way.

Hon. W. Oppal: The document submitted may or may Interjections. not be relevant to the proceedings. The fact is that they are inextricably tied to the Supreme Court proceedings, Mr. Speaker: Members. Members, everybody gets a so I'm not going to make comment. turn to ask a question and, in turn, hear an answer. So we're going to just wait. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. [1410]

Orca Bay donation COST OF PORT MANN BRIDGE project to B.C. Liberal Party M. Karagianis: On Friday the Transportation J. Horgan: Let's see if we can try and get around this ethical Minister announced a colossal failure, the collapse of blind spot that the Attorney General has discovered. his privatization scheme for the Port Mann bridge. The minister failed to pull off the deal even after offering a Interjections. $1.1 billion bailout to the project's financier. His obses- sion with pursuing a private financing scheme means Mr. Speaker: Members. the bridge is greatly delayed and the costs have doubled. Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14097

Will the minister reveal to the taxpayers of British Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. Columbia how much money he's wasted so far on this dogmatic pursuit of a failed privatization scheme? Hon. K. Falcon: Well, I can see that the NDP's under- standing of basic finance hasn't improved since the fast Hon. K. Falcon: Well, actually the member's wrong — ferries. The fact of the matter is that when the project not one day of delay. What I can confirm, in fact, is that was announced in 2005 at $1.7 billion, it was made clear under this government we are building a $2.46 billion that that was in 2005 dollars. There's a concept called Port Mann bridge. What I can confirm is that we will be time value of money, and I'm happy to walk the mem- building a ten-lane bridge with dedicated bus lanes. We bers through that. will be moving forward with a project that will employ The fact of the matter is that the project has not 8,000 British Columbians. And we will be doing it in doubled in cost, as they're always out there yammering spite of the fact that the NDP have opposed it every step on about. That's simply not true. The project cost is $2.46 of the way. billion. There is a larger bridge that is being built as a result of the competitive bid process. It is on schedule, it Interjections. is going to get built, and, let me tell you, for the people that are stuck 14 hours a day in rush hour traffic, they Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat, Member. appreciate the new Port Mann bridge we are building The member has a supplemental. here in British Columbia. [1415] M. Karagianis: Well, you know, in 2006 this project was budgeted to be $1.5 billion. Today the project is $3.3 Interjections. billion and counting. So we were supposed to see pilings rising out of the river in 2008. Has that happened? No, it Mr. Speaker: It's going to be a long question period. has not. The project…. You might as well take your seat.

Interjection. Interjections.

M. Karagianis: Oh, one piling — one piling. The Mr. Speaker: Members. minister cannot be…. PORT MANN BRIDGE TOLL CONTRACT Interjections. B. Ralston: The minister mentioned the competitive Mr. Speaker: Member, just take your seat. I can't hear bidding process. It's striking that on Friday afternoon you. the minister also announced that he had awarded a Members, let's listen to the question. new and untendered contract to Macquarie, the failed Continue, Member. bidder, to provide advice on financing and tolling. Yet Macquarie investment bank had failed to produce the M. Karagianis: Well, the minister cannot be serious financing for the Port Mann crossing. Does the Minister about that. But listen. The reality is that the project is late, of Finance support this award to a failed bidder? it's massively over budget, and the financing scheme has collapsed. This isn't just a failure, but it's an embarrass- Hon. K. Falcon: The member could have pulled ment for the minister… me aside and asked me that question so I could have actually straightened out his misperception, because we Interjections. didn't say that we had awarded an untendered contract. We said that Macquarie was available, when we decide Mr. Speaker: Members. to pay them, to provide advice in an area in which they actually have tremendous expertise. M. Karagianis: …and it's also a colossal waste of tax- payers' money. My question to the minister is simply: Some Hon. Members: More, more. will he reveal to British Columbians the cost of this embarrassing failure? How much are we paying because Hon. K. Falcon: I'll give you more. he ignored the warnings, blindly pursued a privatization scheme, wasted time on his failed financing deal and Interjections. pushed the costs through the roof? Mr. Speaker: Members. Interjections. Continue, Minister. 14098 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

Hon. K. Falcon: I know, for the members opposite, RELEASE OF INTERIM REPORT that it would be rather striking to consider utilizing the ON FRANK PAUL INQUIRY services of a company that is world-renowned for their expertise in electronic tolling. I know that for the mem- M. Farnworth: Can the Attorney General confirm that bers of the opposition, that is a challenging fact. But he has the Frank Paul…? The results of the Frank Paul the fact of the matter is that this is a great project with inquiry have been sitting on his desk for the last 19 days. a great builder. I'll remind the members opposite that Can he tell this House when he intends to release it? it's currently involved in building two major products in British Columbia: the Sea to Sky Highway and the Hon. W. Oppal: I do have the Frank Paul interim Pitt River bridge, both of them ahead of schedule and report. It's 445 pages in length. We have to abide by the on budget. law before we release such a report. TheI nquiry Act sets forth…. I recommend the Inquiry Act for reading… Interjections. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. Mr. Speaker: Members. [1420] B. Ralston: Well, the minister's position is contra- dicted by the ministry press release, but that's, I suppose, Hon. W. Oppal: …for the members. We usually small potatoes for this minister. follow the law on this side of the House. Section 4 of the Transportation Act speaks of the competitive bidding process. That's the way costs to Interjections. taxpayers are saved. Mr. Justice Brenner of the B.C. Supreme Court said in a case he decided: "When Mr. Speaker: Attorney. Attorney, just sit down. governments, for reasons of patronage or otherwise, Members. apply criteria unknown to the bidders, great injustice Attorney, continue. follows." Will the Minister of Finance investigate the secret Hon. W. Oppal: The report will be released. standards that led the Minister of Transportation to award a consolation prize to the failed bidder Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Macquarie? M. Farnworth: It's been sitting on the minister's desk Hon. K. Falcon: Again, the member opposite com- for 19 days. The minister said it was 445 pages. That's a pletely fails to understand what's happened. little over 20 pages a day, I think. I would have thought the Attorney General would have been quite capable of Interjections. reading 20 pages a day. Let me ask this question to the Attorney General. Will Hon. K. Falcon: No, I don't think you do, actually, he commit to this House that it's released before the writ Member. You see, what we have said is that on an is dropped? as-needed basis, we are able to utilize the services of Macquarie Group. On an as-needed basis, should we Interjections. need them, we can utilize them to provide some advice and expertise that they have that is unique in the fact Mr. Speaker: Just wait, Attorney. that they provide tolling advisory services around the world, and we will have the ability to take advantage of Hon. W. Oppal: The members opposite can make fun that. of this and make light of it, but this is a serious report. It But really, I think the issue here that is important dealt with the death of a man who was in police custody. is that I'm still trying to figure out the position of the That report needs to be taken seriously, and we are…. NDP on this very important project. Now, maybe we have an opportunity, because in 2007 the Leader of Interjections. the Opposition said: "Not this. Wrong bridge; wrong time." I'd like to know if that's still the position of the Hon. W. Oppal: It may provoke a lot of laughter over opposition. there, but I can tell you the report is not funny. It will be I'll tell you what our position is. We're moving forward released. We have to go through all the…. with the Port Mann bridge, 400 people are currently working on it, and we're getting it built. Interjections. Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14099

Mr. Speaker: Members. CLBC services dealing with the change from IQ 70 Continue, Attorney. and the number of clients that are presently wait-listed with CLBC. Hon. W. Oppal: There are other ministries involved. I think it's always best to not have us tell us what's There are privacy considerations to canvass. The law important or what's right. Let me read another quote. needs to be adhered to. We will release the report, and I "The B.C. Association for Community Living recognizes can assure the member that it will be released before the the current economic climate and is pleased…" writ is dropped. Interjections. COMMUNITY LIVING B.C. PUBLIC RELATIONS CONTRACT Hon. R. Coleman: You don't like hearing this — do you? You just don't like hearing this. J. McGinn: My question is to the Minister of Housing "…that the government understands the social and and Social Development. economic value of working towards its 'great goal' of People with developmental disabilities need help, not building the best system of supports for persons with another public relations campaign from this govern- disabilities and special needs." That's exactly what we're ment. On February 6 this government posted a request doing. for spin doctors to help Community Living B.C. with its image. Front-line services, not public relations, should CHILD CARE SPACES IN WHISTLER be the priority. Minister, will you cancel this wasteful and unnecessary contract and invest in community support? C. Trevena: The Teddy Bear Daycare in Whistler is closing at the end of May, and the operators have told Mr. Speaker: Just to remind members to go through parents in a letter that it's because "the day care space the Chair, please. will not be available during the 2010 Olympic period." Last spring when the issue of child care in Whistler Hon. R. Coleman: The member opposite might want was raised in this House, the minister of state advised to look at the budget and find out there's been a huge parents to go to another centre, which is about 20 kilo- increase in funding for Community Living B.C. this year metres away. I'd like to advise the minister that that to deal with wait-lists and to deal with people on the centre is closing, and the centre in Whistler is closing, front line. and there is nothing available for parents in Whistler or I might just read a little quote into the record here the surrounding areas. that might actually crystallize it for the members oppos- I'd like to ask if the minister of state can give some ite. "It's not often that I give kudos to the government, advice to working parents in Whistler on what they but at this particular time, I think we need to. They've should do about their child care. shown true leadership by listening to their commun- ity" — you don't like hearing quotes, do you? — "and Hon. L. Reid: I thank the member opposite for her responding to our needs." That is Rory Summers of the question. This government continues to oversee the B.C. Association for Community Living. largest child care budget ever — an enormous sum of money. We continue to work with the individuals in Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. Whistler, and I, in fact, have visited there many times in terms of addressing the recruitment issues, the retention J. McGinn: The most effective and efficient way issues, the real estate issues. to build public trust is to actually deliver the services We'll continue to work with them, because our chal- that British Columbians expect from their government. lenge is to continue to provide day care services across People with developmental disabilities should not be left British Columbia, and they continue to be in regular waiting while the government's on another public rela- contact with our offices. tions exercise. I ask the minister again. Will you cancel this unneces- Mr. Speaker: Member has a supplemental. sary and wasteful contract and invest instead in front-line services for people with developmental disabilities? C. Trevena: To the minister of state. I'm very intrigued [1425] that she's carrying on talking to the various communities in Whistler, because since she started talking we've lost Hon. R. Coleman: This year the government is 46 spaces in the community, and we don't actually have providing $52.4 million more to community living any space for parents who are looking for child care. services in British Columbia. The budget increase The operators of the Teddy Bear Daycare are a major is going to help us to address the rising demand for company. They're Whistler Blackcomb, which is part of 14100 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

the Intrawest group, and that company recognizes that and the devastating impact that it has had on popula- child care is important for the community and for a suc- tions and on the meat industry. cessful business. Not only are the meat inspection regulations import- In the letter to parents which was informing them ant to protect public health, Mr. Speaker, but can you of the closure, it actually says: "We realize that quality imagine the devastating impact on the meat industry in child care is essential to the success of the community." British Columbia from one case of BSE? Whistler Blackcomb recognizes it. B.C. Chamber of Commerce recognizes it. The board of trade recognizes Interjections. it. But seriously, I think the minister is paying lip service to it. Mr. Speaker: Minister, please take your seat. I'd like to ask the minister: if the Olympics is supposed Members. to attract people to British Columbia, what message is Continue, Minister. being given to families? The fact that these child care spaces are closing as we approach the Olympics — is Hon. M. Polak: One case of BSE — that's all it would this the minister's legacy for the Olympics, for the work- take to absolutely devastate the meat industry in British ing families in Whistler? Columbia. That's all it would take. I am absolutely appalled to think that at a time when Hon. L. Reid: Absolutely, this government under- we're trying to work with meat processors to strengthen stands the importance of building child care space, the industry, to increase production capacity and pro- which is why we've built 6,000 new child care spaces cessing capacity, those members would want to reject across British Columbia. We have invested $34 million the safety of the public and the well-being of the meat in capital construction, and we continue to provide sub- industry in order to just score political points. sidies to 90,000 licensed child care spaces. That is double what it was when we came to government. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

MEAT INSPECTION REGULATIONS C. Wyse: The issue that is in front of the House is a government that doesn't wish to respond to the sugges- C. Wyse: On Thursday of last week I raised some tions that have been brought forward by the producers questions with regard to the meat industry regulations as well as the meat-slaughtering industry. and how they were affecting the industry itself. There is no question that there have been increased [1430] costs that have been passed on to the producer. There have The Minister of Healthy Living and Sport responded been increased costs that have been caused by transporta- to those questions regarding those inadequacies. The tion, niche marketing, and the issues go on and on. The minister missed the point. government across the way has passed this issue from When the government introduced the new meat Agriculture to Health to Healthy Living and Sport. industry regulations, many meat-processing plants Where does someone from Cranbrook, where does were shut down. Production costs for meat producers somebody from the Kootenays, where does someone have increased substantially, while hundreds of meat from around the province approach to get answers? My producers around the province have been forced out of question: will any minister commit to working with the business. meat producers and the meat-slaughtering industry to My question to the minister is: how many process- fix these regressive meat inspection regulations? ing plants were in operation before the regulations were implemented, how many have since closed down, and Hon. M. Polak: The member is once again just dead how many are now in production? wrong. This is a file that has been taken with great ser- iousness by those involved in public health, who are the Hon. M. Polak: First of all, I want to remind the same people who have been working with developing member and all members opposite that this is a public this since 2004 when it was implemented. health issue. The safety of the food…. We're proud to work with the Cattlemen's Association and the B.C. Food Processors Association. I'd be inter- Interjections. ested to know: if the member is so concerned about the costs that have been present in the transition for the Mr. Speaker: Continue, Minister. meat industry, where were the members opposite when it was time to vote on meat transition assistance pro- Hon. M. Polak: For those who do not think that the gram funding — $9 million? meat inspection regulations are a matter of public health, Guess what, Mr. Speaker. They voted against it — $9 I might remind them of a small disease known as BSE million to help transition this industry. We will continue Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14101

to work with this industry so that we have safe meat Introductions by Members products and a vibrant meat-processing industry in British Columbia. M. Farnworth: Mindful of your comments earlier, I'd like to let the House know that a teacher from Archbishop [End of question period.] Carney Secondary School is up in the gallery watching question period. So would the House please make Mr. L. Krog: Hon. Speaker, I seek leave to table two Chris Seppelt most welcome. petitions. Orders of the Day Mr. Speaker: Proceed. [1435] Hon. M. de Jong: I call Committee of Supply — for the information of members, continued discussion on Petitions the supplementary estimates, beginning with Tourism and, I think, moving eventually to Transportation. L. Krog: I have two petitions. They both relate to the same dangerous stretch of the Island Highway just south Committee of Supply of Nanaimo. The first consists of 118 signatures calling on the government to improve the intersection of Spruston SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES: and the Island Highway. And the second, collected by MINISTRY OF TOURISM, Ken Dixon, a community-minded citizen, consists of CULTURE AND THE ARTS over 1,300 signatures calling on the government to install (continued) cement dividers and proper lighting, and to remove the southwest bluffs and install photo radar cameras in order The House in Committee of Supply; K. Whittred in to protect the people who travel on the Island Highway. the chair.

Point of Privilege The committee met at 2:40 p.m. (Reservation of Right) On Vote 42(S): ministry operations, $15,100,000 R. Hawes: I rise to reserve my right to raise a matter (continued). of privilege. S. Herbert: We got some good discussion going on B. Simpson: I seek leave to present a petition. last day. I appreciate the minister sharing what he did. I've got a little summary of a report, Building from Mr. Speaker: Proceed. Strength — Report and Recommendations from Arts and Culture: Building B.C.'s Creative Agenda. It's a summit that Petitions happened in 2006 with the former Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts, the member for Richmond Centre. B. Simpson: I have a petition signed by 1,527 residents It's got something in here which I thought I'd read out, of Williams Lake, 100 Mile House and the surrounding because I think it's important to get on the record and area who are experiencing unsafe driving conditions to make very clear why I'm so interested in this file and due to lack of proper road maintenance as a result of why the NDP is so interested in this file and what the deteriorating roads. government is currently planning on doing. The executive summary states, basically: D. Routley: I seek to present a petition. "A consistent thread throughout the day was the need to build on current strengths to affirm and develop the importance of the Mr. Speaker: Proceed. cultural sector to the province's economic prosperity and social health. The strength of the role played by the cultural sector in the province's economy was particularly stressed at that summit. D. Routley: This petition is signed by many of my "As the minister pointed out" — the minister at that time — "the constituents. They're concerned about the length of time most recent Statistics Canada data indicated that British Colum- British Columbians must wait for weight-loss surgery, bia was the third-largest producer of culture output in Canada, otherwise known as bariatric surgery, and the lack of accounting for $5 billion, 4 percent of provincial gross domestic product." choice that is available to them. It goes on to quote from the minister, where she states: M. Farnworth: I ask leave to make an introduction. "But the cultural sector represents and contributes more than just money and jobs to our economy…. It's the very stuff that Mr. Speaker: Proceed. defines us as a society." 14102 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

Then it says: certainly slashing the budget by about 50 percent in "The meeting was unanimous in its belief that more resources, 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 will have that effect. both public and private, are necessary to allow the province's cul- I would ask the minister if it will also be possible to tural sector to flourish." share with me what other kind of money is leveraged Just to highlight, it says that more resources are necessary. into the arts and culture sector by the investment of It also says: this government. Maybe there's a quick answer there, or "What was needed is a comprehensive, multi-year investment plan" — and underline multi-year investment plan — "that takes maybe you'll need a few days to get that back to me. into account the relationship of arts and cultural activity to recreation, community development, education and the diverse Hon. B. Bennett: Starting with the $7 million that's cultures of the province." going to the B.C. Arts Council. That is the first thing The delegates at that forum and in this report strongly that comes to mind, if the member is interested in a list. supported sustained core operational funding, which I don't have an exhaustive list in front of me, but I can would be required to ensure long-term growth and certainly provide the member some examples. I'd be development of the sector. I know the minister certainly glad to do that. has made mention of that in the past as well. In addition to that $7 million that we're discussing A question we finished off with the other day that I here today, there is $650,000 that's going to support the wanted to follow up on was the discussion of how many Juno Awards in Vancouver. That's provincial. There's jobs this supplementary estimate of $7 million for arts another $600,000 that's going to support B.C. artists and culture would be infusing into the community, as it participating in B.C. Scene in Ottawa this spring. There's has year after year because of the sustained funding. $300,000 that's going to the Canadian Country Music Awards in Vancouver in September. There is $575,000 Hon. B. Bennett: I find myself in pretty much going towards the Cultural Olympiad. That, of course, is complete agreement with the member in terms of the the cultural component of the 2010 games. backgrounder that prefaces his question, specifically in There is between $18 million and $20 million — we cal- terms of the importance of arts and culture to our indi- culate that for 2007-08, it was exactly $19.8 million — that vidual communities and to us as a people. goes to arts and culture in this province from the commun- I'm certainly proud of everything that we have done ity gaming grants program. That's B.C. Lotteries. on this side of the House to support arts and culture. I There was also the arts legacy fund that we created, the won't go into the litany just from this current fiscal year, $20 million endowment in addition to the BC150 $150 but it's quite substantive. million endowment. There's been $15 million go into Just one example is the BC150 fund that was created — arts and culture through 2010 Legacies Now. Frankly, I $150 million. It was created specifically to be ongoing and could stand here and list lots of examples of provincial to help with sustainable funding for arts and culture. money going into arts and culture. In terms of the specific question, we do have our staff Of course, before I sit down, I should mention $50 working on the logistics of calculating how many jobs million going into the Vancouver Art Gallery. So there will come out of the $15.1 million. When we have that, have been lots and lots of examples of this government I'll include it in a letter and give it to the member. supporting arts and culture in this province.

S. Herbert: Well, I did just a little back-of-a-napkin S. Herbert: I agree that there have been many examples numbers, based on the average income of an artist in of the provincial government supporting arts and culture Canada, which is about $23,000. It works out to be quite in this province for many years. That's why I'm so con- a good-sized number of jobs in our province. I'll be cerned that the budget for the arts and culture department looking forward to seeing those figures. is planned on being slashed by 50 percent. All of these [1445] things the minister likes to talk about will be thoroughly I guess the reason I think it's so important that we get threatened by his service plan which he proposes. the numbers of jobs — the thousands of jobs that the I guess he missed the question and gave me a list. It's arts and culture sector creates in the province…. I've got nice to know the list, because I think it speaks to the a couple of figures, ranging from 80,000 to 118,000 that vitality that the arts and culture industry brings to the the cultural sector has in this province. I am concerned, sector. of course, with the cuts coming up that the minister has But what I'm asking is…. This $7 million leverages outlined in his service plan to the B.C. Arts Council other funding. That's funding from theC anada Council budget — the approximately 50 percent cuts in support. for the Arts. That's funding from municipalities. That's I think it's important we get these numbers on the funding from the private sector. I'm wondering if there's table here so we can see what kind of devastation will any estimation on the leverage. The reason I think it's be coming to communities that rely on arts and culture important is that when the province cuts 50 percent sup- support for jobs and for community livability, because port to the arts and culture sector, as they're planning on Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14103

doing, you're also losing money for the province from TheB .C. renaissance fund was all leveraged money, as the Canada Council for the Arts. the member is probably aware. So that's, I think, a very We look to Quebec. There's incredible leverage of good example of how you can leverage. Put money into funding. The province kicks in this much, and the fed- the arts and culture communities across the province eral government comes and kicks in this much. But here and require leveraging on that money. That's what we in this province it looks like we're going backwards. By did in that case. not kicking in the same amount with the 50 percent cut The examples thatI read out just a few minutes ago…. in funding that this minister proposes in 2010-2011, For example, the $50 million going into the art gallery — 2011-2012, we're basically suggesting to other groups that's leveraged money. The art gallery will clearly cost a that the B.C. government doesn't support the arts in that lot more than $50 million, but we've put $50 million in way, so why should they. to get things started. There will be private money coming [1450] in there, and there may be other public money. I think I was hoping I could get a figure from the minister that's true of the arts and culture community generally. about what kind of other investment the B.C. govern- They find resources wherever they can, and I have a lot ment's investment brings into the province — so from of respect for how well they do that. the Canada Council for the Arts, from private sector, I agree with the member that we have to hold our end from foundations, from local governments — because up, and that's why we're here discussing this supple- that's all important in our understanding of how to sup- mentary budget. That's why we have made sure that in port the arts and culture sector. this next fiscal year the B.C. Arts Council will, in fact, have the same amount of money that it had last year — Hon. B. Bennett: The member included a number of even a little bump-up of about $800,000. questions, really, in his statement. With regard to federal So I think all of the opportunities that existed for arts funding, it's certainly my opinion that British Columbia and culture groups and individuals in this past fiscal generally receives as much largesse from the federal gov- year will exist in the next fiscal year. In the meantime, ernment as any other province in the country. In fact, I over the next 13 months, I hope a couple of things will think we probably have one of the most, if not the most, happen. I hope that the economy improves and that the constructive relationships with the federal government interest rates will be somewhat higher for the BC150 of any province or territory in the country. fund. I mean, a bump of a couple of interest percentages Unlike the way it used to be, when the province of or points would bump the number up from, say, $3 mil- British Columbia was always bickering with the federal lion to $5 million or $6 million. government and calling the federal government names in Of course, if the economy improves, as it will, I am Vancouver and Victoria newspapers, we have developed, hopeful — even cautiously optimistic — that in out- on the other hand, a very good and very constructive and years we'll be able to put something back into the budget, productive relationship with the federal government. just as we're doing this year. So I do think that we get our share there in terms of [1455] infrastructure dollars. Some of those infrastructure dol- Can I promise that right now, given the circumstances lars, of course, in this upcoming round of infrastructure that the province finds itself in? No, I can't. What I can funding, are going to be related to arts and culture and promise stakeholders in the arts and culture community heritage, based on what the federal government has said is that I will do everything I possibly can to make sure about their budget. We will ensure that we get our share. that those out-years, the 2010-11 and the 2011-12, will be In fact, I've had meetings just recently, within the last at least as good as this year. And this year, as I have said, two weeks, with a number of arts and culture groups in is just as good as last year. So that's my commitment. this province where I have volunteered my staff to assist them to ensure that they're able to provide the right S. Herbert: Well, I think that's a longer answer for kind of application for federal-provincial infrastructure what I think is a short question, which is: how much funding, arts-and-culture type of infrastructure funding. money is leveraged? So I think we're on solid ground there. As an artist, when I worked in the arts, I can tell In terms of the $7 million that the member referred you that quite often there would be foundations, there to — and, of course, that's the amount that we're actually would be the Canada Council, and they'd want to know discussing here in the supplementary budget — some that you had provincial support before they committed of that money is leveraged after it comes out of the B.C. to give you federal support. So with the proposed 50 Arts Council. It's up to the individual applicant organiza- percent cut to arts and culture funding by this minister, tion or individual as to whether the funds are leveraged we're looking at a lot less money coming in from across or not. So some is, and some is not. There may not be Canada, and that's going to hurt our economy. the opportunity to leverage it, but for whatever reason, We are going to see a loss of jobs with this proposal. some is and some isn't. But we're also going to see a net effect, a wider effect, of 14104 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

a loss of jobs, because we see that the leveraged funding heard the minister confirm it…. I would like to ask increases the opportunity for more jobs because of the the minister: could he confirm for me that his service federal funding. I'll just put that on the record. Hopefully, plan for his ministry shows that he plans on cutting the the minister can come back and take a look at the lever- budget for arts and culture by 50 percent in 2010-2011 aging effect and get that in the letter to me.I understand and 2011-12? it doesn't seem like he has the figures today, but it would [1500] be very helpful to have an estimate for the future. I found it interesting what the minister spoke about, Hon. B. Bennett: I truly hope that the member is not about the out-years of 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 when going around Vancouver telling people that there is no he plans on cutting the budget by 50 percent. He says possible way for the government to increase budgets for he's going to do his best to put something back, just as arts and culture and heritage — or anything else, for that we did this year. matter, but in particular for arts and culture — in the Now, I would remind the minister that the legislation out-years of a three-year budget cycle, which is what I his Finance Minister brought in actually precludes any think I just heard him say. I think I just heard him say possibility of there being supplementary funding like that you can't do that. this. It would actually be against the law, and it would For the benefit of stakeholders…. I've kind of given have to go into paying down the debt. up on trying to explain this to the member, but if there This supplementary funding is a last time. This is are any stakeholders listening, it's important for them really one time only because of the legislation that his to know that even though you have a three-year budget Minister of Finance has brought in. So for him to suggest cycle, you do have individual annual cycles within that. that is a bit rich and, I think, a little bit…. Hopefully, it's Each year, whether you do supplementary budgets or not disingenuous. Maybe he's got another pot of money not — the member is correct; there won't be any sup- somewhere else that he thinks he can dip into. But if so, plementary budgets in the future — you still have that I would have hoped to see it in the service plan. opportunity in the annual budget cycle to change what I remember, going back to last time when we were you have forecast two years prior. discussing this topic, that the minister struck out at my We will have an opportunity over the next 13 months suggestion that President Obama had been supporting to take a close read of what's happening in the economy the arts and investing in the arts. He said nobody's pro- and to increase the arts and culture budget, if we're able jecting three years out. Obama's not projecting three to do that, for 2010-11. Then we would probably take years out in terms of support. So I find it a little interest- the same approach for 2011-12, depending on how the ing that in his Minister of Finance's documents, he does economy is going. project three years out. Just to summarize, government is not prevented from I seem to remember something about rural home- increasing an annual ministry budget on an annual basis. owners and how that would come into place in 2011. That has nothing to do with supplementary budgets. Well, that sounds to me like his Finance Minister was With regard to the member's question about those two projecting three years out. So it's a little bit odd for me out-years, I think the member has stated himself — and to see this service plan, which shows 50 percent cuts I have stated myself on a number of occasions, on this coming in 2010-2011, 2011-2012 — and of course, the past Thursday and then so far here this afternoon — that core cut, which is this next year, 2009-10. That is only 2010-11 and 2011-12 do contain the core reductions being topped up by the supplementary funding right that that member has referred to. The actual amount is before an election and before they outlaw this practice $7 million less to the B.C. Arts Council in '10-11 and of supplementary funding. '11-12. Those are the two years that I'm committed to It's a bit questionable, and I'd be interested in the trying to find resources for as we go forward. minister's response to that. But so far whenever I ask a question, I don't get a straight answer. What I get is a S. Herbert: I don't know if the minister was listening discussion of what the member has done in the past and to somebody else, but I've never said that the govern- what has happened in the past. I'm interested in what's ment cannot increase the budget for arts and culture. In coming up for the future, because arts organizations fact, I've been saying over and over that the government right now are putting together their budgets, they're put- needs to give its head a shake, wake up and realize that ting together their fundraising plans, and they're putting this is a good investment. together their programs for the seasons in the future. The B.C. Arts Council's own study, as put out by the I've spoken to a number of large and small arts organ- minister, shows that for every dollar the government has izations, who basically are telling me: "Is the government invested, they get $1.36 back in return. The Conference asking me" — asking them — "to program with less pro- Board of Canada shows that it's much higher, more like gramming?" Are they asking them to plan for less staff? $1.86. It's an investment, as the minister seems to agree I guess my question is, first off, because I haven't but at the same time seems to argue. "Well, it's too bad. Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14105

It's tough times. We should cut the budget by up to 50 the Chair could direct the member to keep his com- percent." Oh, but he'll try and get the money back. ments to the supplementary estimates so that we can get Well, the government could have kept the funding those completed. there. That's a real possibility — could have kept core funding there. That's a real possibility.I t's something the C. Evans: Hon. Chair, I just wanted to congratulate minister could have fought harder for. He could have you on this debate, which I hear as precisely on the said: "We're going to go back to the table and put this subject of supplementary estimates and how they will money back." He can still do that. The budget hasn't develop and grow and as allowing people on the out- passed yet. side to see exactly what the supplementary estimates If he's really committed to finding that money, I'm are about. I heard the questions about: would there be wondering if he's going to go and ask his Finance future…? So I think you're running a great debate, and Minister to put that money back. you don't really have to worry how these two gentlemen are running it. Hon. B. Bennett: The member,I 'm sure, is aware that a goodly portion of the $7 million that we're discuss- The Chair: Thank you, Members. The Chair has ing today is the result of lower interest rates earned by allowed, I think, considerable latitude during the entire the BC150 fund and the other legacy fund. If interest supplemental estimate debate. rates were where I think most people, not just in British However, I do take the comments of the Minister of Columbia but in the rest of the world…. If they were Children and Family Development. I believe that the where the experts thought they were going to be, we recent comments are, in fact, straying away from the wouldn't be talking about $7 million. We might be talk- debate on the supplemental estimates. ing about $3 million. That's a good part of what we're So Member, if you would keep your remarks relevant talking about. to the supplementary estimates. Continue, Member. The discussion went way wider and broader than we intended it to, I guess, on Thursday, and it appears like it's Debate Continued going to go way broader than it should be going today. [1505] S. Herbert: Arts groups are asked repeatedly to think I've answered any question that the member has put ahead and plan for the future. Is the minister advising forward with regard to the supplementary budget of $15.1 them — based on his service plan and this one-time-only million. I'm happy to answer any specific questions that supplementary funding before the massive cuts come in the member has about that $15.1 million. Otherwise, I 2010, 2011 and 2012 — that they should be planning on just don't see that we're making any progress here. cutting staff and programming that they provide to this community? S. Herbert: I've got to say I'm disappointed in the minister's response. This is the minister who is supposed Hon. B. Bennett: No, actually, it's not me that's going to be standing up for Tourism, Culture and the Arts, but around the province spreading doom and gloom within who's brought in a service plan which shows 50 percent the arts and culture budget with the obvious intention cuts coming in 2010, 2011 and 2012. That's not grow- of earning political points. It's not me that's doing that. ing our future. That's smashing it to the ground, andI 'm It's that member over there that's travelling around the ashamed of what's going on in this House. province here for the last two weeks spreading fear and The minister could say that he's going to go to the gloom and doom amongst the arts and culture commun- Finance Minister to debate, could say that he's going to ity, and he's doing it purposely, strictly to gain political do that for the arts and culture industry, but there's no points in his own riding, where he has a lot of voters response. The minister wants a specific question; I will who are in the arts and culture community. He's trying give him a specific question. to do it for his political masters, the NDP party. Member, if you want to hear the truth, that's the truth. The Chair: Member. Member. Now, you've mentioned tourism. I've heard your radio clips, and you mentioned tourism again. You haven't Point of Order asked one….

Hon. T. Christensen: Point of order, Madam Chair. I The Chair:Minister. Minister, through the Chair. understand that the supplementary estimates are before the House. A budget was introduced a couple of weeks Hon. B. Bennett: Hon. Chair, the member has men- ago. I understand that if we're able to get through the tioned tourism a number of times both through the media supplementary estimates and vote on those, there will be and here. Not one question on tourism. Does the NDP some future opportunity to debate the budget. Perhaps care about tourism? No. They don't care about tourism. 14106 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

We've more than doubled the budget for tourism. fund of $150 million, we put $19.8 million — this is just in What did the member's leader say in 2005 when we 2007-08 — into the arts and culture community through said that we want to give them more hotel room tax? B.C. Lotteries. That will continue into the future. The member's leader said: "No, we don't want to give We also, just a few days ago, announced another $6.2 Tourism B.C. more hotel room tax." So the member million that went into the arts and culture community shouldn't lecture me about funding tourism or about through the B.C. Arts Council, and 90 different com- funding arts and culture, because this government's munities received that money. We put $350,000 into record stands up against the record of the NDP govern- grants to 20 different arts organizations in November, ment from the 1990s very, very well. just a few months ago. That was made possible by the province's $150 million BC150 cultural fund. S. Herbert: I think it's interesting that the minister In September we put $100,000 into the Vancouver would suggest that it's me running around the province Symphony Orchestra. That included their Asia tour. It spreading doom and gloom. Last time I checked, it's was actually $250,000 in total, I think. In September his ministry's service plan which is spreading the doom of this past fall $600,000 went to 600 B.C. artists who and gloom, because this minister has watched over are participating in B.C. Scene. Also in September 270 while the arts and culture budget has been gutted by artists and organizations received $7.1 million in that this government. It's not me spreading the doom and round of B.C. Arts Council grants. gloom. It's this document signed by the minister that's For the member to suggest that we are abandoning spreading the doom and gloom. Anybody can look it arts and culture in this province, given the investment up themselves. that we have made, given what we are doing with this [1510] supplementary budget and given my commitment and The journalists phone. They want to know about it the government's commitment to try and improve the because this minister claims that everything is fine.L ast budgets, going forward, for those out-years…. time I checked, the numbers in here are not fine, accept- They are 13 months away. The axe doesn't fall, Member. able or going to do anything except devastate our arts The axe doesn't fall tomorrow. We've got 13 months and culture industry. to try and improve the situation. I've made a commit- So for the minister, I remember. I looked through the ment to try to do that, and I will follow through on that Hansard last time. He said: "Stop sending e-mails. Don't commitment. tell people about this." I'm telling people about it because it's wrong, and it shouldn't happen in this House. S. Herbert: Well, where I come from, the ultimate I ask again to the minister: how many jobs…? Arts commitment is doing what you say you're going to be groups are just like business groups. They plan more doing, and this is the service plan that shows what the than one year in advance, and because the minister's minister is going to be doing. The budget of this govern- only got supplementary, one-time-only funding before ment shows what they are going to be doing. So I think massive cuts come in his own plan, I'm asking him what it's a bit rich for him to say: "That is our commitment. I they should do to plan for the future. Should they be will pledge for 13 months that I will look around and try planning on a budget increase? I don't think so, based and find the money." on his numbers. What should they be planning for? If he could do that, it would be in here. I hope that Budget cuts? Should that be what they're planning for, there's something that we can do, because on my side, Mr. Minister? I'm saying: "Restore the funding." I'm saying: "Talk to your Finance Minister right now, and restore the fund- Hon. B. Bennett: The member continues to insist ing." You don't need to wait 13 months to do it. You that he hasn't said what he has said within the arts and could go talk to him right now. You could tell him you're culture community. I read into the record last week going to resign if the funding is not returned because — I won't bother doing that again; I think I read it in you care that much about the sector. twice — what he said about the $15.1 million, which [1515] is the supplementary budget, which is the topic of our discussion here in the House this afternoon. The The Chair: Member, we've already, I think, spoken of member has said that the facts don't bear out that the appropriateness of that line of questioning. So if you this $15.1 million is going to help the arts and culture would move on, please. community. That's just wrong, and he shouldn't be saying it. S. Herbert: I'm wondering if the minister could I can say, for the member's benefit, that in 2007-08 explain to me what good things happen in communities this government…. In addition to the funding that went across B.C. because of this $7 million. I don't need the through the B.C. Arts Council, in addition to $50 million list. We've heard I don't know how many times now into the art gallery and in addition to the BC150 legacy about what they did in the past. Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14107

Can you tell me what this $7 million will do for your How they will spend it…. As I stated very clearly last community? week on a number of different answers that I gave, that money is spent by the B.C. Arts Council the way that Hon. B. Bennett: I'm going to make a point that I they think is best for the arts and culture community have made already. I'm going to make it again, not so in this province. They adjudicate all of the applications, much for the benefit of the member, who I suspect and they pay out on the basis of a rational, fair adjudica- already knows this, but for the benefit of anyone in the tion. We don't tell them how to spend the $7 million. arts and culture community. When you project out three years with a budget, S. Herbert: It's just interesting that the minister is you have the year that is right in front of you, and trying to pick a fight with me when I'm trying to talk obviously, you have to get that right. If you have the about the future that's coming for arts and culture in capacity for a supplementary budget like we do this this province under his leadership. It's his own service year, you can make some change just before you go plan now. into that fiscal year. However, with the two out-years, Have I ever said: "It's never possible to increase the you have opportunity through the annual budget cycle budget"? No. In fact, in the question and the statement to change those budgets. right before, I told him that. I told him he should do it For the member to suggest that they are frozen in stone now, and he should commit to doing that. He should and that they are not going to change is wrong. It's worse talk to his Finance Minister, but he won't do that for than wrong; it's actually disingenuous. It's a deliberate some reason that I can't understand. attempt, I think, in my opinion, to frighten people. [1520] The member has used the word "rich" to describe my The Finance Minister won't invest in the arts and cul- commitment, and that's fair enough. This is the venue ture industry. I can't understand that either, especially where we say these kinds of things. I do want to remind when every study that I've read and the studies that the the member of what he said. This is what he said. This is minister has referenced in the past support that view — a quote from his newsletter, February 20. "The Minister that it's an investment for the future. It's an investment of Tourism, Culture and the Arts has suggested that the in jobs. It's an economic stimulus. provincial government is providing an additional $15.1 Earlier he said: "Why don't you ask me about tour- million for arts, culture and heritage. This statement is ism?" Because this is actually about arts and culture, not backed up by the facts." Minister. This is about heritage, Minister. That's what That's what the member said. I'm not making this this supplementary debate is about. If you want to talk stuff up. This is what the member said. The member about tourism, we can have a town hall or something is deliberately going around this province trying to like that, but that's not what this is about today. I'm talk- frighten people, and I just don't see how that can be ing about arts and culture. constructive. He suggested that it was wrong for me to suggest that The member asked me, you know, how the $7 million this was not additional funding for arts and culture. was going to help in communities, but he doesn't want Well, if the minister looked at his own budget, he would me to give any examples. That's an interesting way to understand that the core funding for B.C. Arts Council put the question. I can stand here all afternoon and read has been slashed in this upcoming fiscal year, and they're out how the last $6.8 million that was awarded a few replacing that funding. That's not additional funding, in days ago — I think it was Wednesday or Thursday of last my book, when you replace something you took away. week — will be distributed. I know that…. The minister has rightly pointed out that there's I think the member just inquired as to how the money a small bump-up. So I'll give him that. There's been a is going to be spent in my riding. I believe that was his small bump-up this one time only, before the axe drops question. Some of the money…. I know there was a grant next time around because of what the minister suggests that went to the Canadian Museum of Rail Travel, which is the right way to go forward in his service plan. is one of the top railway museums in North America. Now, under here in his service plan, it talks all about The curator, Garry Anderson, is a person of heroic pro- the great things we're going to do for arts, culture and portions. He deserves enormous credit for what he's tourism. It talks about how we're going to be building been able to create in the city of Cranbrook. so that companies are sustainable. I don't get how one- There is also money going to the Fernie Arts Council. time-only supplementary funding before the axe drops I'm doing this from memory. There is a second grant under his service plan is going to help him do that. It going to Cranbrook to the Symphony of the Kootenays. doesn't make any sense to me or anyone in the arts and There are grants, frankly, going to a lot of the small towns culture industry. — many, many small towns — and big towns all across I appreciate the minister speaking about his constitu- the province. That $7 million that the B.C. Arts Council ency and what difference the arts and culture make in will distribute will also go across the province. his constituency. I think it's about $83,000 which goes 14108 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

directly to some of those local groups, and I'm glad and senior staff travel — and in some statutory type of about it. Why I mention it is because I want the minister advertising. We didn't reduce anything having to do with to recognize that under his plan, that funding will be marketing tourism in the province, but we found some severely restricted — about 50 percent under 2010, 2011, money in those other categories, and it wasn't enough. 2012 — because of the cuts that he's bringing into this It wasn't enough to allow government to support the ministry, unless something else happens, which he could essential services that the taxpayers of British Columbia be doing right now. He could be changing that forecast expect from their provincial government such as health right now, but he chose to sign off on this document. care and education, both K-to-12 and advanced edu- That's his commitment for the future. cation. This is certainly no time to be reducing our I'd like to ask the minister how this one-time fund- investment in training, going into a difficult economic ing and then massive cuts in 2010, 2011 and 2012, as time like this. This difficult economic time will be a time outlined in his service plan, make arts and culture when workers will want to go back and finish up their organizations sustainable over the long term? apprenticeship or go further with their training. Care and services for children, care and services for disabled Hon. B. Bennett: Clearly, to use the member's own adults — all of those things are extremely important to words…. He said: "I don't get it." I don't think he does the people of British Columbia. get it. I don't think that he gets what it's like to be That is not to minimize the importance of the environ- responsible for the taxpayers' money, to go into a fiscal mental aspects of our life in B.C., or the arts and culture year projecting a huge surplus and to find, a few months aspects of our life here in British Columbia or any other before the end of the year, that not only are you not aspect of our life here in British Columbia that the prov- going to have your huge surplus, but you're going to be incial government is involved in. It's not to minimize challenged to even balance the budget. the importance of those things at all. It's just that when The decline in revenue to the province has no- pre you're elected to govern, you're elected to make difficult cedent. There is no precedent for what we've just gone choices. So we have made some difficult choices. through and are still going through in North America Now, we were fortunate in the arts and culture com- with the economy. When in late fall we realized what munity that even though we had to make that difficult was happening — it was like a train speeding up going choice, we were able to find $15.1 million that we could down a hill; it just seemed to get worse every day that use to provide a sustaining three-year budget for herit- went by — all of the ministers in this government took age — something they haven't had for a long, long time it upon themselves to see what they could do to help — and the $7 million that we're giving to the B.C. Arts out, to make sure that we did balance this year's budget Council to keep them whole throughout 2009-2010. but also to make sure that we were able to fund the core Given the economic climate that we're in — to be services that we provide in this province. able to go through that exercise that I just described and We've increased the health care budget in this prov- collaborate with my colleagues in cabinet and in caucus ince every single year that I've been here as an MLA and make those difficult decisions — I think, frankly, — eight years in a row. You know, I always hear mum- that this is a much more positive scenario than what it bling when I or any other member on this side of the could have been. House mentions that we've increased the health care Going forward — again, to repeat myself, for the budget. Frankly, you've got members of the opposition, benefit of any arts and culture stakeholders that are out including the leader, running around the province right there…. Certainly, they have my 100 percent commit- now. She was in Kelowna today or yesterday saying that ment that I will see what I can do about that $7 million we're cutting health care. I mean, it just seems like they going forward in 2010-11 and 2011-12. believe that if you repeat a fabrication often enough, people will believe it. S. Herbert: Well, I appreciate the statement from the [1525] hon. minister, but it really leads me to believe, from what We went through an exercise that's very difficult, I he's said, that he doesn't see supporting the arts as a core can tell you. It's like the experience that you go through, investment. He doesn't see investing in arts and culture husband and wife and family, when all of a sudden, one as wise economically, even though he says it is. Based on of the husband or wife loses their job. You have to basic- his actions, he's shown that he does not appreciate that, ally sit down at the kitchen table and decide what you especially now in a time of economic trouble. are going to be able to continue to do until you find that The arts and culture industry is one of the best invest- second job again. ments you can make at this time for building the economy, We went through that exercise this fall and also in for a creative economy, for the future of this province. January, and we found $1.9 billion within our ministries. Basically, the minister refused to answer my question In my case we found some savings in tourism adminis- about how one-time-only funding, before massive cuts, tration and in travel — my minister's office, for example, makes arts and culture organizations sustainable over Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14109

the long term. Even though that's his stated goal in this It's an investment, Minister. It's an investment for the document, they don't jibe, because I guess he under- future. stands that it can't. There's no way that what he plans I finish off debate at this point. to do to the arts and culture industry is going to make it sustainable over the long term. Otherwise, he would Hon. B. Bennett: Well, a couple things. Unlike the commit right now to fighting to put it right back, right member, I don't question his sincerity with regard to the now. But he won't do that. It will be sometime in the importance of arts and culture and his personal com- future: "Maybe we'll try." mitment to arts and culture. I believe that the member I think we've got to look at his own government's facts really does care about arts and culture. It's disappointing and the Conference Board of Canada's facts. Investing to me that he seems to have to characterize his position in arts and culture is one of the best things you can do as personal against me and to question my commitment in a recession, if not the best, because of the economic to arts and culture. spinoffs for local economies. I am committed to doing everything I possibly can over He spoke earlier about the wonderful benefits that the next two years and a bit to make sure that we have the arts and culture play for local communities. Right on. level of funding for arts and culture that we've had in this Right on. That's what we need to hear, but it needs to be province over the last few years. The member doesn't know backed up by facts. It needs to be backed up by num- me well, but my commitment is a good commitment. bers, and by that I mean dollars — not cuts, not the axe I would remind the member on the way out the knocking at the door. door from these estimates that he, in fact, did vote for I guess the minister is suggesting that arts and culture a balanced budget. So for him to come into this House organizations need to be preparing for layoffs in the and say, "We should just spend. We should just get the future. They need to be preparing for fewer programs. money, borrow it, get it someplace" — off the money I'm already hearing from arts and culture organizations, tree, perhaps — "spend it and go into deficit this year" is who are telling me that they are planning for that. an irresponsible suggestion, because he, in fact, as with [1530] his colleagues, did vote for a balanced budget. If the minister was going to actually come through for As I alluded to a few minutes ago, it's a difficult process. them, he would have come through. But he's justified it by Members on the other side who have been in government saying that he's protecting the core. Well, that's old-style will be able to understand what it's like to go through that economic thinking. That's not understanding the benefit process and have to make difficult decisions. the creative economy is playing right now in this province Having said that, let me just close by saying that it is — one of the number one job creators; one of the real lead- an honour to represent or be the minister for the arts ers in leveraging funding from across the country; and and culture community. I love music, I love art, I love one of the leaders in making sure that people have work dance, and I love theatre — probably just as much as my and that communities are healthy, communities have critic does. So perhaps after today we can work together enjoyment, communities get to know themselves. instead of being at odds in this political theatre. We can That's what the arts are about to me.I wish it were the work together and see what we can do to accomplish the same for this government, but it's not. goal that I know that he and I share.

[S. Hammell in the chair.] Vote 42(S): ministry operations, $15,100,000 — approved. This has been an absolute failure of this government — failure to act for the future and putting us back, oh, prob- The Chair: Members will stand recessed for five ably about 20 years. I heard a local arts organization put minutes. out a song recently, "Total Eclipse of the Arts," which talked about how we're putting us back into the 1980s in terms of The committee recessed from 3:35 p.m. to 3:42 p.m. supporting arts and culture. That's what it does here. I'm disappointed that the minister wouldn't answer [S. Hammell in the chair.] that question. I'm disappointed that he wouldn't come forward and say that he commits that he will resign if he SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES: cannot get that funding increased, because really, as Arts MINISTRY OF TRANSPORTATION and Culture Minister, he says he's committed, but maybe AND INFRASTRUCTURE not to threaten his own seat. That's disappointing to me. I've got a whole bunch more questions, but I haven't On Vote 43(S): ministry operations, $20,000,000. gotten, really, any answers from him, except for: "Oh, it's just fine.E verybody should be happy. But the cuts to arts M. Karagianis: In looking at this $20 million supple- and culture are necessary." mental that's being asked for here, it says very specifically: 14110 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

"…to invest in significant road maintenance and rehabili- would involve local equipment and local hires, to make tation projects." Clearly, this is a pre-election fund to go sure that folks who wouldn't normally have the oppor- and throw money around and perhaps try and win some tunity are given the opportunity to provide the work. favour back in rural B.C. It is all work that is identified as additional work. If I would like to ask: what are the priorities for main- you will, it would be the kinds of things we would love to tenance in this fund? get done that might not be part of the normal mainten- ance contract but that we would be able to add on to Hon. K. Falcon: Just to correct the member's char- get things done. We identify that in cooperation with acterization, this actually follows up from the Premier's the individual maintenance contractors and through October statement, where he announced a series of eco- our district offices, in terms of identifying what kind of nomic measures in his ten-point plan to help rejuvenate work that would be. the economy and inject some confidence into the econ- omy of British Columbia. M. Karagianis: How has the minister determined the We committed at that time up to $20 million for local priorities of these jobs? In other words, are you look- transportation projects — projects that would utilize ing at where there's been, say, more frost heave, more local hires, local equipment, often referred to as day damage? We've certainly heard from communities labour — particularly and primarily across the rural across northern British Columbia about the problems parts of the province. Those are the areas that are being of potholes and the ongoing concerns around mainten- impacted, we think, most definitely as a result of the ance of some of the northern routes. economic downturn. How have the maintenance priorities been deter- The investments will go primarily to the kinds of mined? Are they going to start in the north? Are they things that are jobs that are important work to get done going to start in any given place, and what is the time but work that also can be moved ahead with quickly. line for these projects? That would be things like brushing, pavement patching. It would include gravelling on the side road network, Hon. K. Falcon: What we have done is, working improvements to bridges. It would also include crush- through our district offices and working through the ing material that will be used in the future to address our maintenance contractors, identified a range of the kind infrastructure needs. of work that could get done immediately. The criterion The idea is that we want to essentially get people we want to use is that it be work that will be under- working over the next few months immediately. It also way and completed by the end of March. We want to acts as a bridge as we work to negotiate with the federal ensure that these dollars are put to work as quickly as government for additional infrastructure investments possible. We're trying to accelerate a number of jobs that we can make throughout the province that will pro- and opportunities. vide even more projects above and beyond those which The emphasis and the breakdown is gravelling, pave- are already underway through our ministry. ment patching, brushing on side roads, improvements [1545] to bridges and dollars being spent on crushing material that will be used in the future to improve our road and M. Karagianis: So the priority is, then, for mainten- highway infrastructure. So those are the categories. ance. Is this all being done through existing maintenance What we wanted to do was make sure that those dol- contracts? lars got out into communities right across the province, but we wanted to make sure they got into communities Hon. K. Falcon: It is being done through our local over the immediate period of time so that they acted as district offices and the maintenance contractors. This is a bridge while we are in the course of moving forward all additional work that can be utilized for the benefit of other potential projects in cooperation with the federal the public at large. government and the economic stimulus program that the federal government has been talking about. M. Karagianis: How would this work be outside [1550] of the normal maintenance expectations of any of the contractors right now? You made mention of things like M. Karagianis: So there are sort of two parts of this. patching. Are these not part of the normal budgetary The funds are being earmarked for both road mainten- process — the normal workload and work expectation ance and rehabilitation. Can the minister explain what of these contractors? What is extraordinary about this the difference between the rehabilitation will be, as well that we're looking for extra money? as maintenance? Maintenance would be fairly obvious — potholes, patching, gravelling, regravelling, that kind Hon. K. Falcon: The criteria that we put in place were of thing. But certainly, some of these…. The list that the that it would involve new work and new jobs, that it minister has just given us of paving and things could Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14111 very likely be new roads. Will the rehabilitation be clas- might be able to do work or talking about how we might sified as any kind of new corridors anywhere? be able to put people to work on additional projects above and beyond our already massive transportation Hon. K. Falcon: The member is correct in her char- and capital investment program across government but acterization. If I understood the member's question how we could do that in the short term, immediately. correctly, I think she's correct, in that it would not [1555] involve new bridges or new roads. It would be improve- The blacktop issues that the member opposite men- ments to existing bridges and roads where there is a road tions have to do with patching — some small pavement and bridge element to the improvements, or it would jobs. Granted, they may not be large in the scheme of be, as the member correctly pointed out, gravelling or things, but they'll be very important work for the indi- brushing along the highway or crushing material that viduals and the equipment operators that are utilizing will be used. that work. It will involve gravelling and brushing work It will differ depending on the different parts of the that will be certainly important to local communities province in what the needs are that have been identi- and the side road network. They will be important safety fied by the local contractors and through the district issues, particularly on the issue of brushing and gravel- offices. The goal, as I say, was to make sure that it was ling and pavement patching. work that could begin virtually immediately and that These are important economic activities that will it's work that will involve local workers and local hired employ British Columbians immediately; put them to equipment so that we could get that activity happening work immediately; allow them to utilize their equipment, as soon as possible. which may be idled as a result of the slowdown in the private sector economy; and, as I say, act as that import- M. Karagianis: At this point I do need to ask. The ant bridge as we continue to move forward other major minister is very careful to say that this won't involve any transportation initiatives right across the province. new roads or bridges, and I can understand that. Those are significant projects. But in the case of things like M. Karagianis: I know that in the budget one of the resource roads…. things that the government has talked about was new roads for oil exploration and mining. Will any of these Interjections. dollars go into those kinds of initiatives?

The Chair: Member. Hon. K. Falcon: The short answer is no. This wouldn't be for the roads that the member mentions, in terms of M. Karagianis: Thank you very much, Madam Chair. rural resource roads specific to the Peace country, where The minister has been very clear that this is not the oil and gas activity is taking place. about new bridges or roads. But in the case of rehabili- We already, in my ministry…. I'm going by memory, tation of roads, what exactly is the scope of that? What but this year alone we are investing close to $100 mil- could that involve? It seems to me that this is black- lion in rural resource roads to encourage and continue top politics at work just before an election. How far is to stimulate the extraordinary economic activity that's the rehabilitation going to go on some of these roads taking place in the Peace country, the northeast part of throughout the province? the province. These are much more modest in nature in terms of the kind of work that is involved but, as I say, Hon. K. Falcon: Again, I remind the member that very important for those local equipment operators and back in October the Premier and government, under those local workers that are finding themselves idled as a their ten-point economic plan, identified that one of the result of some of the slowdown that's taken place in the steps we would be taking was to accelerate $20 million private sector activity. worth of the kind of maintenance work that could put The $20 million itself, though, because it's over a rela- local people and local equipment to work immediately tively short period, does have a magnified impact.I t will in communities across the province. be significant, because we're trying to move those dol- I wouldn't characterize it the way the member talked lars out rapidly and put people to work immediately. about. We are facing a global international downdraft The magnification of that investment — because it's here that is epic in its proportions. It requires immediate not over 12 months; it's over a very short period of weeks action by government. — does allow people to get to work almost immediately The goal of this government was to make sure that we and does it in such a way that it acts as an important could do important maintenance work that should and bridge to get us to the point where the other projects could and would be desirable to have done anyhow but that we have moving forward will be able to comple- do it by utilizing local labour and local workers immedi- ment the investment that's being made through the $20 ately — not to spend 12 months talking about how we million economic stimulus. 14112 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

M. Karagianis: I have no doubt that it will have issues. We have, of course, ongoing maintenance issues, significant impact. It is blacktop politics, and we are and these are partially inevitable, just given the nature of 60 days from an election. I'm sure $20 million in small the area that we live in. communities will certainly have its effect. Before I ask specific questions, I just want to pass I asked earlier about the priorities for these projects. along just how receptive the communication has been Is there going to be any focus on communities like those with local highways staff. That's always been the case, that have been so hard hit by the forestry downturn? Is and that's something that I think that the minister needs there going to be a focus on those communities first and to hear — that as issues come up, both with the con- foremost to make sure that if, in fact, there are some new tractor and also with the staff that represents him there, jobs created, those communities that are really devas- there's good communication, and that the challenges tated by the current situation in forestry are going to be are… We'll work them out, and we would expect no less the first to benefit from the significant dollars that the from the Ministry of Transportation. minister is going to start spending? I do want to talk about a couple of things that the [1600] minister will be familiar with. The Trans-Canada Highway — there are signs up that seem to indicate Hon. K. Falcon: The member keeps referring to black- that four-laning will be coming relatively soon. Now, I top politics. I should remind the member that in our think most people realize, given the time right now, that budget over the next few years our combined investment there's possibly federal money coming. What I would from the province and our partners in transportation say…. I think something that the minister has touched investment projects is $3.3 billion. It is continuing what on, which is very accurate, is that the forest industry has has been the largest transportation investment program gone through an unprecedented downturn. in the history of the province of British Columbia. That What the minister will know is that, with the Park has been going on year after year after year. Bridge project and actually its predecessor, you had a I can assure the member that $20 million by itself very high percentage of local workers. The contractors, does not, in my view, even begin to touch on the scope in particular, have a workforce that easily moves into and scale of work that is underway. some of the work that's done on these highway projects. What is unique about these dollars…. The reason why As the minister would be familiar with, up to 70 percent the Premier committed to this $20 million as part of the of the workers on the Park Bridge were actually from ten-point economic plan he laid out in October was to Golden, the Golden area, which is very, very significant. recognize that, as the private sector activity is dropping While, obviously, it fits well outside the $20 million, off dramatically in some parts of the province — in virtu- part of what the minister has said is that this is going ally all parts of the province, but certainly in some parts to be preparation work for larger projects. I realize that of the province more than others — the Premier wanted there are particular projects that need to be done along to make sure that we had dollars that were moving out the Trans-Canada. I'd be interested in hearing about immediately to assist those that are impacted in com- the Donald Bridge. I think the minister has likely, cer- munities, in every community right across this province, tainly, seen the pictures from Donald Bridge, and that that they would have the ability to undertake work — very clearly would be a priority, regardless of what was small projects, granted, but important projects for many going on. of those contractors. What we have talked about in the past, what I think is As I say, it will be in every part of the province, and important, is that idea of moving through with perhaps a there will be projects involving all aspects of the kind of ten-year plan — which is something that has been talked maintenance that the public would like to see anyhow, in about by mayors; you've heard it very many times — of terms of gravelling and pavement patching and improve- moving that four-laning across from the border all the ments to brushing and highways. way through to Kamloops and perhaps to Cache Creek. It is something that certainly has been well received Can the minister give me some idea of where we are in virtually every community right across the province, with that as a project? I know that we've often talked and I'm proud of the fact that the Premier was recogniz- about waiting. I mean, it's decades. We've always talked ing back in October the scale of the economic forces that about getting federal money. were buffetingB ritish Columbia from around the world. [1605] Though not of our making, it required an immediate It seems clear that, beyond the investments that have response, and that's exactly what this $20 million is been made by the federal government, there's also an achieving. opportunity to just move that project along. So can you give me — it would be interesting to refer specifically to N. Macdonald: For the minister's benefit, I'm going that Donald Bridge; as well, there are also the remaining to be talking mainly about local issues. The first thing phases of the Kicking Horse project — some sense there, is that I just want to talk a little bit about maintenance because as the minister will know, the most expensive Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14113

part is the one that we haven't started yet, which is likely with. The one thing that we have to be careful of as a to be the tunnel. province is that we don't want to get started on projects I've given you a whole bunch of things to talk about, that we know could be cost-shared with the federal gov- but I'd be very interested to hear about it. Like I say, ernment, because any dollars we spend are sunk dollars. that 70 percent local at this time right now, and likely We wouldn't be able to get cost-sharing on them. over the next number of years, is going to be critically We have encouraged the federal government to have a important. sense of urgency about the fact that we need to get these projects underway and employ British Columbians as Hon. K. Falcon: I thank the member for the question. soon as we can, and I received a very positive message The member is quite right.I remember the former mayor from the federal government. I believe that we are close to of Golden once saying to me that the Kicking Horse receiving some sign-offs on a number and range of pro- Canyon improvements were essentially employing his jects that would provide significant benefit to the province entire community. Though I suspect that was a bit of and the travelling public, especially on the Trans-Canada. hyperbole, I think he wasn't far off the mark, and the member reflects that when he correctly points out that N. Macdonald: I thank you for that, and of course, the there is a huge component of local work and workers urgency…. I'm sure that the minister has passed this along. that go into these projects. It has to do with also trying to maintain a very skilled As the member knows, we are continuing on with group of contractors that we will need when, inevitably, those improvements. The member is correct to point out there's an upturn in the industry. We need these people to that local mayors have called for…. What they would remain in the area, and we need them to remain engaged, like to see is a ten-year sort of commitment between and this is a very constructive way of doing it. the federal and provincial governments to improve the The Donald Bridge in particular…. I know the min- Trans-Canada from the Alberta border to Kamloops. ister will be aware that there's a lot of discussion and The federal government is unable or unwilling to enter concern, not only about longstanding alignment issues into that kind of a ten-year commitment. They haven't and things like that but also deterioration issues on the done it anywhere across Canada, and they tell me they're bridge. People talk about it, and I'm sure the minister not going to start in British Columbia. has information on that. There is a way we can achieve the same thing, as far as [1610] I'm concerned, without having something that says we'll The Trans-Canada would be one issue. As I've men- do this over ten years, and that is to make significant tioned also, there are maintenance issues that from time investments in the Trans-Canada. I can promise and to time come up. It seems to work to have that flow up assure the member that I have been, as recently as last through local ministry staff, and we do that. week, talking to the federal government. The other issueI 'd like to talk about is Highway 95, as I had a very good meeting with Minister John Baird, it passes through Golden. This is something that may be the federal Minister of Transport and Infrastructure more long term and perhaps doesn't directly relate to in Ottawa. I indicated again to Minister Baird and to the 20 million, but I think the minister would be inter- Minister Stockwell Day, who is the key minister for ested anyway. For a long time the community has been British Columbia in terms of dealing with the province, looking at a new bridge. I wouldn't be surprised if it goes that the Trans-Canada Highway remains a critical cor- back 20, 30 years. Certainly, there's an opportunity with ridor for the province. a realignment of 95. The minister is always pretty good The signs that the member refers to that start to refer about actually knowing these sites, so I'll presume that to improvements being made on the Trans-Canada are to you do. The bridge that goes through the community reflect the fact that we are making a significant commit- could also be realigned. ment as a province, and we are optimistically expecting I just want to get some sense as to where that would be the federal government to join with us on a number of within the plans for the government in terms of making improvements along the Trans-Canada corridor to fulfil that upgrade. exactly what the member correctly wants to see, as do we, which is a continued, significant investment in the Hon. K. Falcon: The member is correct. That is an Trans-Canada to improve safety and improve four-laning issue, with respect to that bridge in town on Highway 95. right from Kamloops to the Alberta border. I've had a number of discussions with at least the former The $65 million right now is continuing on the mayor. I haven't had a chance to meet the new mayor yet, improvements that have been made to the Kicking Horse but I have no doubt that will still be an issue. We have Canyon. They're underway, as the member knows. We been in discussions with them to try and figure out a want to do more. The member references DonaldB ridge. way that we could sensibly deal with that issue. Donald Bridge is certainly on my radar screen in terms I usually hasten to point out to them that we have of projects that I would like to see us moving forward focused our attention really heavily on the Trans-Canada, 14114 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

for obvious reasons. Some of the improvements that the The improvements to the 95A through Kimberley member talked about or improvements that we would are very much appreciated. That was a road that really like to see done are higher up on our radar screen in needed improvements. Of course — and it's true with terms of urgency. But we have been in continuous dis- Golden as well — often, few people realize that these cussions, I think I would say, with respect to Highway 95 are provincial roads. So I suspect you get very little and the local bridge there. credit for it. It's certainly an important road through I forget the name of the bridge, but it's a wooden one, Kimberley and a surprisingly long section of highway as I recall. through Kimberley. So that's welcome. I think the minister will know that tied into that, the Interjection. city is making improvements to the sidewalks and to intersections. So that's a very positive project. Hon. K. Falcon: No. It's that small one right in Golden The last question I would have is the road up to — right? Panorama, which has had some improvements but con- It's still on our radar screen, but we haven't got to an tinues to be a road that…. You know, at one point it must answer yet in terms of the best way of dealing with it. I have been to capacity. It's a challenging road to upgrade, guess that is the simple answer. but it very clearly needs upgrades. Just a question about what plans are in place for improvements to the road up N. Macdonald: The next question I have is one to Panorama Resort. And then that's it. that you're familiar with as well. It would be from the improvements to Highways 95 and 93 that come from Hon. K. Falcon: First of all, I thank the member for Radium through to pretty well Fairmont. In those areas, the comments on Kimberley. The mayor and councillors especially during the summer or on weekends, there's have visited me on a number of occasions, and this was incredibly heavy traffic. I think if you took an overall their top priority; there's no question. So we're thrilled traffic count over the course of the year, it might not with the work that we were able to jointly do there. The seem as high as it is — but incredibly high. curb and gutter and the sidewalks, in particular, I think, There have been improvements made in terms of add an element that's important to them from a tour- turnout lanes and so on. There has also been talk about ism point of view and a beautification point of view. SoI a circle, I think, that we're going to put in at the junction appreciate the member saying that. with Invermere. There remain turnout areas that your In terms of Panorama, the member's right. Panorama staff would be familiar with just near the Tenaha or the Mountain is an important economic generator. We spent Akisqnuk turnoff and places like that. some dollars — significant dollars, asI recall; I just can't Just some sense of how this $20 million or other funds recall if it was last year or the year before — on some — how you plan to proceed on those projects. improvements to the road up to Panorama. We plan on doing more in the future. We do recog- Hon. K. Falcon: The member's right. This is an area nize it's a really important tourist generator and tourism that we have spent some time and some dollars on generator. So our intention is to continue to make invest- recently to try and make some improvements. I think ments and improvements to the road. it's one of those areas where there will be continuous improvement being made. C. Trevena: To the minister, I thank him for his gen- [1615] erosity in answers to my colleagues. I hope he will show We know it is important for the tourism sector, and I the same generosity for North Island constituents. would agree with the member in his description of the fact that there are peak times of the year where you do have Interjection. heavy traffic in that area. We are going to be continuing to invest dollars in making continuous improvements. I C. Trevena: No, I have to argue with the minister. know discussions are underway and some planning has During the estimates process the minister is very help- been done on the next stages of improvements. ful for constituents' issues, and I thank the minister for I don't have the details at my fingertips, but I can that. confirm to the member that it would not involve the I did want to know, as we are going towards an elec- $20 million that we're talking about today. That would tion, on the $20 million, whether there has been a be separate ministry capital dollars that are being specific assignation of that $20 million to various areas. looked at. If so, we have two specific roads in the northI sland that I would like to ask the minister about. I wondered whether N. Macdonald: The minister is being very tolerant there will be money going to Highway 28, which I have with the questions, and I appreciate that. I just want to raised with him in the past, and also certain stretches of say one thing, and then just ask one final question. Highway 19 north of Campbell River. Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14115

I could break those down, as the road is breaking The north Island's share of the $20 million is basic- down, for the minister. ally for gravelling for the Head Bay Road. I wondered [1620] if there's been any consideration for a small — I would perceive it to be small — investment, that of highway Hon. K. Falcon: The improvements that the member cameras. We're getting a lot of concerns. We've been in is talking about with respect to Highway 28 to Gold touch with your ministry about the highway camera River and Highway 19 on the north Island are improve- north of Campbell River — there is none — and looking ments that we do have in our rehab budget. I don't have at something around Hoomak Lake to give people an all those details with us, because it's not part of the $20 idea of the road conditions there. million that we're talking about today. But I do know [1625] that that is on our radar screen for rehab work that we are doing. I'm just not sure when the dollars flow. Hon. K. Falcon: I thank the member for the question. I can tell the member that I do know that with respect With respect to the cameras that the member refers to to the $20 million, it does include improvements to that are utilized through the Drive B.C. website…. This Head Bay Road between Gold River and Tahsis. So there is easily the most popular website in government. I don't will be some work being done there that I think will be think there is any question about that. It is widely utilized. important for the communities. It's so popular that we keep adding cameras every year. Basically, we work with communities. They bring C. Trevena: I thank the minister for that. The Head forward requests for additional cameras. We try to incor- Bay Road has gradually been improved over the last few porate…. Of course, the ask is huge, because they're very years. Every time there is a bit more chip seal on that, popular. We keep trying to add new cameras every year, people are very pleased to see it. Unfortunately, the min- to keep knocking off those community requests, so that ister has no responsibility for the Zeballos road, because we have the broadest possible coverage. people in Zeballos would like a similar treatment. I think the member will know…. I haven't got the Is Head Bay Road the only stretch of highway in the number on the top of my head, but I know that just in north Island, north of the Oyster River, that will be get- this past year we've added dozens of new cameras across ting some of this $20 million? the province. I'll try and check and find out where we're at in terms of the locations the member mentioned. Hon. K. Falcon: The Head Bay Road project was identified early on as a high-priority project. We are still C. Trevena: That's kind of the minister.A s I say, north in the midst of dealing with the district offices, mainten- of Campbell River there is a stretch where you get into ance contractors — identifying the kind of projects that the mountains, and people like to know before they set would be good projects. That was one that came up early off so that they don't get caught in bad weather there. and quickly as one that could benefit from a substantive That would be great. gravelling program. So that's what's being looked at. My final question to the minister is…. I think it's In terms of Zeballos, that is a Forest Service road. really one to cite a little bit of disappointment. There is With respect to the Forest Service roads, as the member the $20 million in road maintenance and rehabilitation, knows, the Premier also made a commitment of a $20 and under the Premier's ten-point plan, point 9 or 10 million investment to improve Forest Service roads was the reduction in the ferry fees for two months. across the province. That's obviously not the $20 million I wondered if the minister would be considering we're talking about here. That's a different $20 million. I putting any of this money, or any of the subsequent suspect that there will be some opportunities for roads contingencies money that the minister could get hold like Zeballos. of, to reintroduce lower fares. Or would he be looking at I honestly don't know at this point whether that's one stopping the fare increase which is due in April? If some of the roads, but it is one that has been brought to my of the contingency money could be used for that, I think attention in the past and one that would certainly be on that would really ease people's perceptions and comfort the radar screen of the Forests Ministry as they look at levels financially as they go forward into the summer. making improvements. Hon. K. Falcon: No, we won't be using any of the $20 C. Trevena: Like my colleague from Columbia River– million stimulus that we're talking about in the supple- Revelstoke, I have to say that every time I go to Port Alice, mental estimates here for ferry fares. the only thing people are talking about is the improvement I think the issue with ferry fares…. There are a couple to the road there. I'm hoping that in the rehabilitation to of issues. One is that B.C. Ferries has now removed all the Gold River road, when it comes to work that's coming the fuel surcharges that were put on to reflect the inter- up soon, we get the same response. It is in the same condi- national situation with fuel prices. Secondly, we were tion that Port Alice at Highway 30 was. able to convince the federal government to take the tax 14116 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

that was going to be imposed on ferries for bringing the I can imagine, that people would like to have govern- MV Sonia onto our network and having that replace the ment try and deal with on their behalf. sunken Queen of the North. We got a commitment out of them to rebate that to M. Sather: I wanted to ask the minister about an issue the province. We made a commitment that 100 percent in Pitt Meadows that I know he's aware of, which is the of that would go towards reducing fuel costs on the top concern for the city there. That's the redevelop- minor routes. It works out to about a 5 percent further ment of the interchange at Harris Road and Lougheed fuel reduction on the minor routes. Highway. I just wanted to ask if any money would be The $20 million that we committed to the 33- per coming from this $20 million to help them with that or cent rate buy-down over the holiday period was really if the minister can comment if there's anything else on to, again, make sure that we provided an opportunity the horizon with regard to that. during a critical holiday period to allow families to con- nect over the holidays and to act essentially as a seat sale. Hon. K. Falcon: I am aware of the project. That is a We bought a seat sale, effectively, through the contract project that is being driven, as the member knows, by we have with B.C. Ferries to try and allow families to a proposed development. It really is something that reconnect over the holiday period. we've been working on, with the municipality and the For the most part, I think it was successful, except developer, to understand what the requirements of the that we had some of the worst snowstorms we have ever developer are and what that would do in terms of the had. That really impacted the ability of people to travel, intersection traffic. particularly during that period leading up to Christmas. In fact, this has been a discussion we've been having So I think that probably impacted the total volume. for quite some time with the municipality. I don't believe I guess the short answer is, Member, that of this $20 there's been any change in those discussions up to this million, none of it will be going to any further rate buy- point, except trying to figure out what the scale of the downs for the ferries. project is that the municipality is planning and what the [1630] impacts are likely to be on the intersection and then how we would apportion the costs — what contribution the C. Trevena: One last question/comment. As I say, I developer would make, etc., to the project. noticed in the supplementary estimates that there is What I can tell the member with confidence, though, another $125 million. I don't know what access the minis- is that none of the dollars we're talking about here in the ter has. If the minister is looking at economic stimulus…. $20 million supplementary estimate request will have Obviously, the construction crews are working on it and anything to do with that project. These are all much getting the shovel-ready projects and getting the shovels smaller maintenance-type jobs that will provide short- in the ground. That all is an economic stimulus. term work for local labour and local equipment. Likewise, I would urge the minister to consider that if there was a freeze on fare increases, it would be an M. Sather: Well, of course, this is about movement of economic stimulus right across the islands, both for traffic west on the Lougheed Highway, with the choke people living and working there and for the people who point being at Harris and Lougheed. We are getting the are dependent on tourism coming in. This fare increase two new bridges, and we want to be sure that everything is going in just at the beginning of the early parts of the will flow as well as possible when those are done. tourism season. This may be too large as well, but I wanted to ask the minister. The other piece that is needed there is that Hon. K. Falcon: The increases that the member is when you come off the Abernethy Connector from the talking about are the annualized increases that are northeast onto Lougheed Highway and you're heading capped but are allowed to the ferry system. You're cor- west, there needs to be…. I think the plan is to have rect about that, Member. another lane there, between the junction of the Lougheed I think it would be important to recognize that they Highway and the Abernethy Connector and Harris Road will be done in an environment — especially on the minor going west. routes, for example — where there has been a 5 percent [1635] reduction, which is currently in place. So it will obviously I just wanted to ask the minister if any of this cancel out that reduction, if you will, but it will moderate money might come out of that or if there's any other dramatically the increase that would be imposed. news on that. You know, again, the province is dealing with a very difficult financial situation. I think the budget that the Hon. K. Falcon: The member is correct. It wouldn't Finance Minister introduced was prudent, and it was be part of the $20 million that we're talking about, but responsible. But we are not going to be taking on any it is on our radar screen in the out-years. We've been further obligations to deal with the whole range of issues, working with the municipality on that. They've got some Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14117

ideas they want to do with their local road network that The former member, the one for North Island, was could complement that kind of investment. So it is talking to me, and I was able to identify one that was…. something that's on our radar screen, but it would be I know that one because it was identified early on as more in the out-years — probably in the next few years a priority for the area that they've been talking about as opposed to immediately. for some time, but I don't have that same information in the member's area. But as I say, the moment we've M. Sather: Thanks to the minister. I have a smaller identified those with the maintenance contractors or project to ask about. with the district offices, we'll be moving those out very, But just one question on the other roadway that's pro- very quickly. posed for that area. It's been named the North Lougheed connector, which would run from the Abernethy K. Conroy: I've asked in estimates over the years about Connector past Harris and Lougheed going west or Highway 3, and I'm going to do it again. Mayors over the going both ways. That goes through agricultural land, so years from all those communities along Highway 3 have it's contentious. Has the ministry had any discussions also asked the minister, as have the MLAs on both sides with the city of Pitt Meadows about that road? If so, of this House, I'm sure. I know definitely the ones on what were they? this side have asked if there's going to be any upgrading work, maintenance — anything — on Highway 3. I'm Hon. K. Falcon: The member is referring to a local wondering if there's any money, in this money that's road, as the member knows, and we have been work- allotted, for Highway 3. If so, what part of Highway 3 is ing with the municipality in terms of some high-level going to be at least maintained? planning they're doing on that proposed route. Our only interest is what impacts it actually has on the Lougheed Hon. K. Falcon: As the member knows, over the Highway, so that's really been the level of our discussions. years we have invested millions of dollars in improving I don't have a lot of information on that road, because it Highway 3 — replacing bridges, doing improvements, is an initiative of the municipality. repavement, widenings, passing lanes. It is not the easi- est corridor, of course, because it is — as is so much of M. Sather: The other thingI wanted to ask about is…. the highway system in British Columbia — some very The traffic lights at Lougheed and 203rd Street have challenging geography. But it has been identified by the been changed by the ministry. I talked to a fellow from province as an area where we have more work to do. It the ministry there a couple weeks ago, and there have has been identified to the federal government as a great been some problems with the synchronizing and that. I opportunity for doing some cost-sharing on some sig- wonder if any of this money might go towards fixing or nificant project work we could do there. changing the lighting at that intersection at 203rd and I think the short answer, Member, is that we have Lougheed. invested millions. We will be investing millions more to come on Highway 3 to make sure we continue our com- Hon. K. Falcon: I'm not aware of the synchronization mitment to that important corridor. issue that the member talks about, but that's something In terms of the $20 million that we're talking about that our ministry, just as a matter of course, can look today, some of those dollars will almost certainly be into. If the member can flip me an e-mail just identifying identified and spent on Highway 3. Just off the top of what that issue is, I'm happy to look into it. It wouldn't my head, I know there could be some brushing work require the utilization of the $20 million that we're talk- that could be done to improve sightlines, perhaps some ing about in the supplementary estimate. patching or those kinds of issues that could be under- taken there. But as I say, we're in the midst of working M. Sather: Lastly, can the minister tell me: are there with the local contractors and district offices to identify any projects in Maple Ridge and/or Pitt Meadows that what exactly those priorities would be. would get some funding out of this $20 million? How I think the short answer I could tell you with some much of the $20 million would go to Maple Ridge, and confidence is that there will be some work done on that. how much would go to Pitt Meadows? It hasn't been identified quite yet as to what it would be.

Hon. K. Falcon: We're just in the midst of identifying K. Conroy: Well, I'm hoping that by the end of this those priorities and working through our district offices month potentially, or when the House finishes sitting or and maintenance contractors to identify the kind of pro- soon, we'll actually get a list of the parts of the highway jects. I can assure the member there will be projects in that are going to be fixed up. the area. I just don't know what those will be at this point, Just so the minister is aware, one part of the highway because they're in the midst of trying to identify those. that desperately needs work is when you come down [1640] from Rock Creek or from…. I just want to make sure 14118 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

the minister is aware that one part of the highway that bumper traffic. I know people in the Lower Mainland are is particularly bad is the intersection of 33 and 3. You used to rush-hour traffic, but it feels like that when you're cannot miss the potholes. They're so large, as you're on that highway. It does have a high traffic volume. coming down from Kelowna to turn to go to either One of the other highways in my constituency that Castlegar or Osoyoos, that it's a real hazard. People are gets asked about a lot is the road from Rossland to the commenting on it continually. Paterson border. It hasn't had much work done to it. It is indeed in need of some work. I just wondered if there [K. Whittred in the chair.] was any hope of that being looked at. [1650] Again, the road from Christina Lake to Castlegar is a pothole mess. It needs work, and it seems to be need- Hon. K. Falcon: The good news is on the first part ing work year after year. Hopefully, there will be some of the member's question. The Big White, the Kelowna money there for that. piece, is exactly the piece where she correctly points out I want to ask the minister again — I've asked it every the traffic issues in the morning and afternoons. That's year — about Highway 33. I've talked to the people that exactly the piece I was referring to that we are planning are working for the ministry in Kelowna. I know there significant improvements. was some work done lower down, closer to Kelowna. In terms of Rossland to the border, this is an area that The actual section of the road that is in my constituency does have very heavy truck traffic. It does require, and — there isn't anything done with it. It's still a very, very we have invested, significant dollars over the past years difficult highway, and it needs work. to rehabilitate that road, which takes a real pummelling [1645] from the truck traffic. We intend to continue our commit- So I'm hoping that some day in the near future…. ment to maintaining that road, in recognizing that it does The minister keeps assuring me that there is going to take a heavy truck traffic load, and we will continue to be something done with the road from Joe Rich to Big rehab and maintain that road to the best of our abilities. White. For the past four years there has been nothing Again, that is not the $20 million that we're talking done with that road. It's a real hazard. I'm just hoping, about today for the stimulus projects across the prov- again, that perhaps the minister can see it clear to make ince. That will not be what we will be investing on that sure there is some money in the future that's going to Rossland piece. That will be dollars that we will be deal with that portion of the road. investing, as we have been in the past, to maintain that road to an adequate standard. Hon. K. Falcon: With respect to Highways 3 and 33, there is a reasonable chance that would be a project that K. Conroy: I thank the minister for that. I also want would probably be a good candidate for dollars. The to, just at this time, acknowledge the ministry staff that member is correct to point that out. If it doesn't come work in the Kootenays. They do a phenomenal job, and out of the $20 million stimulus — from my discussions they're excellent in working with our office and dealing with staff, that hasn't yet been identified — it certainly with our concerns. We're really very, very happy, and I will be part of our rehab program for next year. Either feel fortunate we have the relationship we do with the way, it will get done. ministry staff. They're great in the Kootenays. In terms of the improvements on Highway 33 closer They also heard our concerns about the web cam- to Big White that the member is talking about, typically eras in our area. We're kind of lacking web cameras in what we've done with the improvements that we've been our area. I want to thank the ministry. We did get two, making to Highway 33 is tried to focus on the areas although one of the highest summits in B.C. — not the where we have the highest traffic volumes, which also highest summit, which is Nelson-Creston's summit — is results in higher accident rates. We're trying to deal with the Blueberry-Paulson. It's the only summit in the prov- those sections first. ince that doesn't have a web camera. I know those web We have been in discussions with the city of Kelowna cameras are utilized a lot. and our staff about improvements along that Highway I understand it's an issue of power, but there are solar- 33 corridor. We are, though, as I want to emphasize, powered web cameras at the tops of other summits. I focusing attention, too, on improvements to Highway think that it would be utilized a lot if we could get a solar- 3 — not just what we've done, but what we're planning operated web camera up there. I doubt that's part of this on doing on Highway 3. There will be a more significant $20 million stimulus package, but I think it would be a commitment to that very important corridor. wonderful opportunity to use that money to put some- thing like that up there, because it's definitely wanted. K. Conroy: Just for the minister's education, there's incredible traffic volume betweenB ig White and Kelowna Hon. K. Falcon: We do recognize that the camera every morning and every afternoon. It's bumper-to- program is a valued service that the Ministry of Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14119

Transportation provides the public. As I mentioned ear- to do with things like patching, probably brushing to lier to an earlier member, we continue to add cameras clear sightlines to make sure that the safety issues are every year. The popularity of the program is such that dealt with. As I say, there will be a number of them. I just people want cameras everywhere, and that's under- don't know what they are because we're in the midst of standable, so we're adding new cameras every year. identifying those right now. I've made note of the fact that that's an area where the member would like to see another one. We do our best N. Simons: I'm just wondering if some of the fund- to accommodate. As I say, we're trying to work through ing for the brushing and for the maintenance…. How a number of requests from across the province, and we does that impact on the existing contract with the con- will continue to be adding traffic cameras throughout tractor? Just so I know, where does it fit in? Is it above the province. I thank the member for bringing that to and beyond? That might help clarify things. my attention. Hon. K. Falcon: First of all, we want to make sure N. Simons: Thank you to the minister for being avail- that it's above and beyond the work that's already been able, and to his staff of course. First, I'd like to say that undertaken by the maintenance contractor. It has to be I reflect the comments of my colleagues that the staff new work, and it has got to involve new labour being in Powell River–Sunshine Coast are extremely respon- involved, local equipment being used, our local work- sive and helpful. I'd like to thank Don Legault, Sharon ers that are being used. The idea is that the stimulus is Goddard, Brian Atkins and Tyler Lambert for the work exactly that. It will be a stimulus that hires local people they do. from the Sunshine Coast–Powell River area to actually There are a few questions around Highway 101. I undertake that work. guess I could divide them into two sections, Langdale to The goal is, as I say, to get that work underway as Earls Cove and Saltery Bay to Lund. I'm wondering if it's quickly as possible. That's what the consultations are all possible to ascertain whether or not any of this, in the about between the district offices and our maintenance $20 million we're speaking about, will be allocated to contractors — to identify what the work will be and those roads, which obviously, the minister knows, have then get people out and get them hired immediately to serious issues with respect to their maintenance and go to work. So it is all new work, and it's all above and traffic volume. beyond what would be done normally by the mainten- [1655] ance contractor.

Hon. K. Falcon: I thank the member for his com- N. Simons: Just to make sure I'm clear. It's brush- ments. I agree with him that Don Legault, our staff ing that wouldn't necessarily be done. It's repair to the member there, is exceptional to deal with and does an subsurface or the surface of the highways that wouldn't outstanding job on behalf of the Sunshine Coast. otherwise be done. I think there's a section just south of The last time I was there, which would have been Lund that is sort of in an ongoing state of almost being over…. I think it was in early December when I was there. completed. I'm hoping that perhaps that's part of the Don and I toured through, met with the local mayors discussions with the district office.H ave those decisions and talked about the projects that I think the member is been made by this point, or are they still in the process referring to. of being made? The $20 million in stimulus that we're talking about today would likely not apply to the projects that you're Hon. K. Falcon: I'll check with Don with respect to referring to. I think the ones you're referring to are the that. They may have made that decision by now. Some conveyor belt to Elevator Road, and then I think there decisions have been made. Some are in the midst of was another one through Gibsons that we've been work- being made. I'll follow that up and try and find out. ing on with the community of Gibsons. Those are larger capital projects that we're actually looking at now, espe- N. Simons: I think that pretty much wraps up. I'm cially the Elevator to conveyor belt, on how we could still going to probably ask you for some clarification phase that project and get that work started. on how contractors can allocate. They did have huge Don was doing some work on that last time I checked. expenditures due to the snowfall that you rightfully refer I'm not exactly sure where we are on it, but I committed to as a snowstorm unlike others that we've seen. I'm just to try and move that project forward to the mayors. We're wondering if perhaps the stimulus package is partly trying to sort of break it down into manageable pieces. to address some of the budgetary pressures that have The $20 million stimulus. We will definitely be spend- resulted from that. They're already hiring local people, ing dollars on the Sunshine Coast. Again, there will be, and they use local equipment, so I'm wondering if that for sure, projects on Highway 101. I don't know what can be explained at some future date. they are at this point, but I know they will probably have [1700] 14120 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

Hon. K. Falcon: I actually think that's a very good the fuel use and to make it so that everybody would question. It's a legitimate question in the sense that we, know when the ferry left. Instead of ten minutes to two you, the public would want to make sure that the dollars and five after three, it would just go at two and three. aren't going towards just looking after some costs that Since it was intended to save fuel, I think it's not an the maintenance contractor may want to include in the estimates question, strictly speaking, unless it costs so-called stimulus. money. I think it's a free question, and if the minister So we're very clear. That's why our district offices had said, "Well, we determined that running it on the are involved. We have to see the work. It's got to be hour would cost us another $100,000 and saving the fuel new work. It's got to be work that would not be done would cost us some money in staffing," thenI was going by the maintenance contractor as part of their normal to ask whether or not that might not come out of the work routines. We have to sign off on every single one $20 million. of those to make sure that it's all new. It's got to meet the But since the minister has said that he will get back definition of true stimulus. to me, I will sit down with this caveat: I don't work here very much longer. This is a really good idea. There are a C. Evans: If this goes well, I only have two questions. lot of citizens who care more about when the ferry runs It has to do with the $20 million which is being discussed and how fast it goes than they care about my future. here today in terms of estimates, a short-term rise to the To the minister: when you bring forward your real Ministry of Transportation. budget for the next fiscal year and your real projects, will The minister will remember thatI came in here almost you please respond to whoever is the MLA for Nelson- a year ago and made a little six-minute statement sug- Creston? What is the cost, if there is any cost, of running gesting that we change the timing of the Kootenay Lake the ferry on the hourly basis and slowing it down? And ferry to hourly. The now Minister ofT ourism responded, if there isn't cost, just do it to make all the people happy. saying that was such a good idea and so inexpensive that if it had happened in Cranbrook, they would have Hon. K. Falcon: I will attempt to get that answer for already done it a year before. the member. I do recall, though — because it's coming Then I asked the question of the minister in question back to me a little bit — that I think we extended the period, and the minister said, "We are in discussions hours. Is that not correct, Member? And as I recall, there to see whether or not there are any cost implications was quite positive support from the community. of changing the ferry," which I remind you, hon. Chair, [1705] would reduce the carbon use, the fuel use, save money I guess the issue you're asking is: "That was great, and on fuel and make all the people on both sides of the lake if we could even do more and look at an hourly ser- very cheerful. It wasn't even known, when we discussed vice…." And I don't have the answer to that. it here before, if it would cost any money. I will get the answer for the member. I'll try and get it My first question to the minister is: did the ministry to you before the member is no longer a member so that determine whether putting the Kootenay Lake ferry on at least for the member's benefit, you can know whether an hourly basis would cost any money? that makes sense or not as a suggestion. I think it's rea- sonable to ask. I just don't have the answer right now. Hon. K. Falcon: Member, the short answer is that I don't know. And I don't know because what recollec- C. Evans: We're having a bit of a dialogue. The idea, to tion I have of that issue…. I do remember that from a refresh your memory, was to slow down the ferry a little year ago. I thought that we had actually brought in some bit in order to use less fuel — I think $100,000 a year less changes to address the issue of the length of time that diesel — and less carbon, and then run it on the hour. It the ferry operates. I just don't remember the details, is my impression that the ministry might actually save but if the member is saying there were no changes, that money. I appreciate that the minister is going to look would surprise me a little bit because I thought that we into it, but it isn't just running on the hour; it's slowing had moved down that road to making changes. down the ferry. I can find out for the member. I'm here to discuss, obviously, the $20 million supplementary estimates. I wasn't Hon. K. Falcon: We'll look into that, and obviously anticipating a question on the inland ferry crossings. the calculation would be the slowing down and what that would mean in terms of labour costs and whether that C. Evans: That leads to the second question. I did would outweigh the savings on the fuel side. It wouldn't not suggest that the minister had not made changes. I be a hard calculation to make, I wouldn't think, so we'll assumed that change was happening, and I appreciate try and find that out for you. the changes that the minister did make. However, we did not put the ferry on an hourly basis C. Wyse: In the past I've had discussions with the and reduce the speed, which was the intent, to reduce minister with regards to maintenance projects, road Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14121

upgrades across the Cariboo, and specifically with that local labour and hired equipment to get them work- Cariboo South. The amount of print information that ing right now. I'm able to find on this fund and its use has been rela- tively narrow, so I'm going to mention some items that C. Wyse: I appreciate the answer from the minis- we've had discussions on either through correspondence ter, and I think I understand the distinction that the or through questions in estimates in the past. I'm going minister is making. All of my questions were off of the to name some of them. so-called Cariboo connector, and they're all off on roads From the Loon Lake area, Highway 20. Loon Lake away from that area. would be off of 97, Minister, in fairness. Highway 20, of I also recognize what I think the minister's point was. course, is Williams Lake out to Bella Coola. Highway When you have big projects like he's referring to, they're 24 — specifically in the Bridge Lake–Interlakes area. very large sums of money that are spent, and the actual Then, likewise, we have concerns that have come in with employment figure on manpower is relatively small. If regards to maintenance and road upgrades from the 150 I was understanding the minister correctly, these $20 Mile area, the Horsefly area and the Likely area. million are more with the intention of trying to improve It would be my understanding that correspondence upon the number of man-hours of employment rather has taken place either directly with here in Victoria or than necessarily increasing the number of kilometres of through the local highways people. Is it those types of pavement that may be laid down. projects that will be reviewed for consideration for the I see the minister is nodding in agreement. So he allocation of the supplementary funds? seems to be quite in agreement with me, then, that my understanding of what he was talking about on the Hon. K. Falcon: All of those corridors that the highway connector has a very different effect upon what member talks about would be candidates for sure for this program is about. I appreciate the communication improvements as part of the $20 million stimulus. The in this fashion. key thing to get across here, Member, is that what we're Then, having established that, my question follows out trying not to do is recognize that this is a difference of the large number of local contractor potentials. The in terms of the sense of urgency that the Premier was person who's got a backhoe, a grader or a dumptruck, trying to get across in a statement back in October when who is presently unemployed…. Pardon me. That's an he laid out his ten-point plan. overstatement on my part. Would be looking for work to The idea was to make sure that we put people to work do — that would be, I think, more accurate to describe it. as immediately as we could, particularly in the south What assurances is the minister able to give me that Cariboo where local equipment and local workers could it's this type of work that will go to those types of indi- be hired to get involved in doing some work now, not viduals? And given that answer, how do they go about sort of six month from now. We didn't want to bureau- getting in on acquiring those types of contracts, or cratize the whole process by saying: "Well, now, here's whatever they're called? a list of eligible projects, and here's the bureaucratic approval process that we're going to go through." Hon. K. Falcon: The good news, Member, just put- [1710] ting aside this $20 million we're talking about for the The idea was to get people working now. That would moment, is that we have $50 million this year alone in act as a bridge towards larger projects that will also our rural side-road program. employ a bunch of those folks on the Cariboo connector, We have made clear…. The ministry staff is working to for example. Right now, this year, we'll have about $100 break down those contracts into small enough pieces so million of work underway in the Cariboo connector. that a lot of the small contractors the member is referring We have a number of projects that we are working on to will have the ability to access those contracts readily. with the federal government. We would like to see us We're also utilizing day labour wherever we can so that joint-share further improvements on the Cariboo con- we have the ability to hire a lot of that equipment and a nector. The Premier has identified that as a key priority lot of those operators on a day-labour basis to work on corridor for the province of British Columbia. So there many of these projects. So that is a significant amount of will be, I think it's safe to say, enough work — which is work that we've already been pushing out the door. either underway or being contemplated — to keep the We've tried to tender these projects early, even in the folks in the Cariboo very busy this year. winter. Even though they're not going to be able to start We hope to do that because that acts as an import- work, we want the contracting community to know that ant stimulus. The $20 million that we're talking about as this work is out there, that they can bid on it and have part of the supplemental estimate is going to be more of some certainty of work as soon as the conditions allow. the kind of work like the gravelling on side roads or the So we will continue with that. There will be a heavy brushing or pavement patching, etc., that could be done emphasis on smaller contracts, day labour. on any one of those corridors. That will, again, employ [1715] 14122 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

With respect to the $20 million of additional supple- Recent discussions with the council of 100 Mile…. mental estimates that we're talking about today, those They have a bridge on a secondary road that is inside the are geared exactly to those very small operators, the boundaries of the village of 100 Mile. They're respon- local equipment folks that may have one piece of equip- sible for the maintenance, the rehabilitation and what ment — an excavator, a grader or whatever it may be. We have you for this particular bridge. The cost of doing want to make sure that they get to work. That's what our such is huge, and my question is: would bridge rehabili- staff is busily doing with the maintenance contractors: tation work also be considered for this type of fund that to identify projects on the side road network that will be is here? good, eligible candidates for these kinds of contractors and for these kinds of dollars. Hon. K. Falcon: It is amazing to me that there is any- thing left in 100 Mile House that we haven't paved or C. Wyse: My ignorance, when you talk about main- fixed up. Apparently there is now a local bridge that I tenance contractors…. Sometimes I think of the people was unaware of. that have the maintenance contract that is in existence [1720] for areas versus someone who's interested in getting a I think the member will know, of course, that 100 contract to do maintenance. The minister has used some Mile House is a unique area, because every time I go terminology that has left me somewhat confused here. there, we're virtually carried on their backs through Later, when it is the minister's turn to respond, I would the streets, celebrating the investments that we've done ask that he would clarify that, to ensure that this work is jointly through the community. going to go out to the independent contractors who are As the member knows, through the pine beetle impact able to get this type of work. While he's explaining that, funding, we made grants to the community of 100 Mile I would also ask so that when I share this information House — significant. The amounts I haven't got off the with the people that are through my office looking for top of my head, but it was millions of dollars that went this type of work: what process that they make applica- into improving their local roads. tion for…? Would it be the normal way that they would get this type of work and this type of contract? Interjection.

Hon. K. Falcon: No, that's actually a good question Hon. K. Falcon: Yeah. No, there were a number of to ask. I had canvassed this a little bit earlier, but the different grant amounts. So it was a significant amount member might not have heard that, so that's all right. of dollars that I know were well received. What happens is that we utilize the maintenance con- I think if there was an issue with the local bridge, what tractors, because they will be able to help us identify a lot I would suggest…. Because these dollars, of course, are of the work that could be undertaken. So we will count not for…. We can't invest in local improvements, like on them and our district staff to identify the works that local bridges or local roads unless they're under the will allow us to get these workers and their equipment responsibility of the Ministry of Transportation. hired. But if it is a local bridge, my recommendation to the The maintenance contractors have a list of the day- mayor and council there — who, by the way, are gener- labour lists, which list all the equipment and manpower ally very good at seizing on these opportunities — would that are available for these projects. So they have the be to apply under the communities component of what's ability, once we've identified the list of projects, to called the Building Canada fund. There is a joint federal- immediately go to that list and start phoning up those provincial contribution that gets made to projects right day-labour folks, who are the small contractors that the across the province, where the funding contributions member and I are referring to. are a third, a third, a third between the municipalities, Really, at the end of the day, that is our goal, in a nut- the province and the federal government. That sounds shell. Our goal is to get this $20 million, in a very short like it would be a very good candidate for that program. period of time, out the door and on to contractors so that they can do important maintenance work. Although J. Horgan: I thank the minister for his time today. I've individual jobs may be small jobs in the scheme of a $3.5 been listening intently to his responses to questions from billion budget, it is very important and significant work this side of the House in terms of identifying projects for that hired equipment and the individuals that we're and trying to get this $20 million out into the streets, as going to be asking to carry it out. it were, of British Columbia. Certainly, I want to see that Our key is to identify those projects as quickly as we happen as quickly as possible, particularly if a significant can and get those workers working as quickly as we can. chunk of that sum is going to be making its way into my communities in southern Vancouver Island. C. Wyse: To the minister: thank you for repeating your- I just want to throw a couple of projects out for the self. I was not here. I'm most appreciative of that fact. minister to reflect on and perhaps give me a sense of Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14123 whether or not they would fit in this supplementary esti- mayor that the minister refers to — is just one very, very mate. I'll start with Highway 14 west of Sooke and, in fact, small portion of that long stretch of road. Highway 14 east of Sooke. The minister will know, andI know his staff are well aware, that depending on weather Hon. K. Falcon: Yes, shoulder improvements are events through the fall and winter months, Highway 14 exactly the kind of thing that would qualify under this. can be a challenge for the residents along that ribbon of It has the beauty of being additional work that we could provincial highway. undertake relatively easily which will utilize local equip- Does the minister contemplate…? I know that there ment and labour. would be local equipment and opportunities around As I say, the district offices and maintenance con- Lost Creek, certainly in and around Port Renfrew and tractors are identifying right now what would be good stretches on both sides of Sooke. Does the ministry have candidates for that. I would agree with the member that a plan to look at identifiable projects in that region? shoulder improvements along that route would be good prospective projects. Hon. K. Falcon: Yes, the member will know that there were some significant washout issues on the high- J. Horgan: I have a very, very good relationship with way that I think the maintenance contractor dealt with district staff. They're very attentive to my requests for really quite well. I think the community, as I understand assistance with information. They're very quick to get it, was pretty pleased with the response and the repair to trouble spots at various times during the year. So I work that was done. have no complaints whatsoever with the capacity on That doesn't mean there's not more to do. These dol- the ground. lars are more minor in scope, though, in terms of the I'm wondering if the minister could advise me how kinds of things that would be looked at. This is going members like me can participate or insert themselves in to be that kind of brushing, gravelling, patching, pave- the process of identifying those projects. I know I've got ment patching — the smaller-type improvements that a couple I'd like to rattle off here now. Renfrew Road in are being contemplated here. the Shawnigan district is one that's historically a chal- [1725] lenge for residents at the north end of Shawnigan Lake. We have got a program, as you know, of bridge replace- And at the south end of Shawnigan Lake is the Sooke ment at Sombrio. I think some of that work is underway, Lake Road, which is the only access way north of the if my memory serves me correctly, and I'm in touch with Malahat into the CRD water district lands. the mayor there on a fairly regular basis about what more The community is growing along Sooke Lake Road in we could do. I think we've got a very good relationship, the Shawnigan district. They've contacted me.I 'm meeting and we continue to invest in Highway 14. with ministry officials and residents, I believe next week, to talk about the challenges they have with that road. J. Horgan: I thank the minister for that. There is work Mountain Road in the Glenora area is another one that being done on the far west portions of Highway 14. This I know the minister's staff will be getting e-mails and cor- is a non-partisan comment. Certainly, the anecdotes respondence on from my constituents who are concerned you hear out of Port Renfrew are that every four years about the state of that road and what they perceive to be a there's an influx of survey work in anticipation of some lack of maintenance and rehabilitation dollars. roadwork after that. This has been going on for 30 years, Again, I think all members could list off a handful so I think that we can spread around the actors in that of community projects that are small enough to fit the play. But it does cause concern, certainly in the winter criteria that the minister is talking about, but perhaps in months, and the minister knows that. some cases so small that they might not get on that list. I'll confirm that he's correct that certainly Port As the minister consults with staff, I'll just talk a little Renfrew residents were quite pleased with the speed bit more about the Sooke Lake Road question. It is an with which the washout — the road disappearing, in alternative route to the Malahat to get through from fact — was handled by the maintenance crews. But I'm Shawnigan Lake through the water district into either thinking that, consistent with what the minister is pro- Sooke or Langford. A growing population there is con- posing for this money, shoulder improvements would cerned that the road is not up to a standard that one be consistent with this envelope. would come to expect from a provincial highway, and as There are numerous opportunities along Highway 14 I understand it, Sooke Lake Road would fit that criteria. that do get passed by when we're looking at the larger [1730] problems that emerge, whether it be on bridges around Now that the minister has had time to think about Sombrio or Lost Creek. There are some big-ticket or long that, could he comment on how I could access, on behalf stretches of shoulder work that could be done around of my constituents, district staff to make sure that these Highway 14. I'm wondering if that is part of the equa- projects are high up on the list and that some of that $20 tion, keeping in mind that the district of Sooke — the million will roll into Malahat? 14124 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

Hon. K. Falcon: The member will know that many of Hon. K. Falcon: The short answer is that safety is these issues and requests are often longstanding.I t won't always an issue in the ministry. Virtually all the kinds be news to our local district offices or even the main- of improvements we're talking about — the gravelling, tenance contractors. They are obviously keenly aware the patching, the brushing, clearing, sightline clearings, of what the requests have been through different com- etc. — are driven around safety issues. munities over time. Obviously, where they can try and I don't know whether Mill Bay Road made it on that combine the requests to utilizing some of these dollars candidate list. I just don't actually know. But as I said to to — in part at least — deal with some of those requests, the member, I think the key thing I can assure members they will certainly do so. right across the province is that these are dollars that The key, of course, is to move as quickly as possible. will be spread throughout the province. We have made it I'm really leaving virtually all of that judgment in the clear that we expect the local district offices, in coordina- hands of the district offices and the maintenance con- tion with the maintenance contractors, to identify those tractors who, together, have a far better understanding projects and get people hired and to work immediately. of all the different local needs than I could ever pretend to or try and grasp, especially given that I'm responsible S. Fraser: I understand that the amount we're work- for projects right across the province. ing with here, the $20 million, is spread over the entire I can tell the member that if they are issues that have province. So there are a number of issues, like the been sent in, in the past or longstanding issues, they will alternative access route through to Port Alberni. We've be very much on the radar screen, with the proviso that talked about that before. That's a larger project that I'm they would obviously have to be projects that are small assuming doesn't fit into these criteria. enough to be dealt with quickly with local equipment, [1735] local hires, etc. If the member is talking about larger The Bamfield road. We've come some way since we road improvements, that is a different discussion we first began discussions four years ago. The last time we could have on whether that is part of our rehab plans or spoke, you did acknowledge the need for improvements capital upgrade plans that we may have going forward. on the road — that you would be working, I think, with the Minister of Forests to address that. Is this package of J. Horgan: I thank the minister for that, and I wouldn't funding potentially…? Is any of it being allotted towards have expected that he would be participating in decision- addressing the dire safety needs on the Bamfield road? making on projects at the district level. So I'm comforted to hear that he is of the same view as me on that. Hon. K. Falcon: The short answer is that it wouldn't be a candidate for this $20 million because it is a Forest [H. Bloy in the chair.] Service road. We don't have the ability in the Ministry of Transportation to be investing in that. As I may have There is one other criterion that I would like to throw referred to earlier, there is another $20 million that the out, and it's specifically around Mill Bay Road in my Ministry of Forests is responsible for, and that is to be constituency. There is significant concern around safety. invested in exactly those kinds of roads. It's a potentially larger issue than could be addressed I know the Ministry of Forests, probably utilizing much by this fund, when you consider how widely you have the same approach that we are utilizing for this $20 mil- to stretch this $20 million envelope, but safety on Mill lion, will have a long list of requests that have been made Bay Road is something that's been raised with me by over the years to improve different Forest Service roads.I t constituents. Improvements could be made as easily as wouldn't surprise me at all if that was one of them, but I relocating signage, brush work around some of the more just don't have that information at my fingertips. treacherous turns. Negotiations are underway with the Malahat First S. Fraser: I thank the minister for that. That's good.I 'll Nation, for example, to move the ferry…. I'm endeav- try to be as squeaky a wheel as I can with the Minister of ouring to have a discussion with the head of B.C. Ferries Forests on that. I know there's competition, and $20 mil- about putting signage in place to divert traffic away from lion gets spread pretty thin when it's the whole province. Mill Bay Road and make a more direct line to the Trans- Needs are great all over, but it's certainly very important Canada Highway so that there are fewer cars on the road. on the Bamfield road. That, of course, will improve the safety, and it will reduce I'll move right on. I mentioned the issue around alterna- the need for rehabilitation and maintenance. tive access across the Island — Highway 4 not being part Is safety one of the criteria? I assume it is, but I may of this. Is there anything anticipated? Highway 4 going have missed it if the minister raised it before now. Could from, say, Qualicum Beach to Port Alberni over what he comment on whether or not safety is a criterion in they call the Hump and/or Port Alberni and beyond to finding ways to get this money off the back of the truck the west coast — Ucluelet, Tofino and the Nuu-chah- and into communities? nulth communities there. Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14125

Hon. K. Falcon: Really, I guess the short answer is yes. S. Fraser: I have one final question.I have quite a few They would be candidates for sure — prime candidates more questions, but I'm mindful of the time. There are probably. That is something that the maintenance con- other members who wish to speak. tractors and the district office will be looking at in terms I had a visit with concerned citizens in a little of what projects along that corridor could be undertaken community — well, it's not that little; it's a growing com- that would meet the needs of communities, would address munity — known as Little Qualicum Village Estates. It's probably historical requests or that would improve safety. north of Qualicum Beach. It's growing and becoming Again, keep in mind that we are talking about smaller quite a bustling community with a growing population projects, but smaller projects that are huge projects for the — potentially up to 2,000 in that region now. local equipment and the individuals that are being hired. There's only one real access, as it stands, from the Especially given that we are doing it over a very short lower highway — the older 19A. Travelling up through period of time, it really magnifies the spend, as opposed Corcan Road, it goes up towards the Island Highway, to if you were spending this $20 million over 12 months. which is very close to this community, much closer than The member is quite right that would be dollars that it is from 19A. in the scheme of things might not appear that large. There's only the one way in or out, and actually the When you're doing it over a shorter period of time, over road is surprisingly challenging going in there — very a 60-day period, then that will magnify that investment thin. There's no shoulder. The hydro poles and tele- and the opportunities. phone poles are right on the roadside. There's no room I think the short answer is yes. They have probably to pull over, and school buses and everything have to identified already or are in the process of identifying travel that. what those projects would be. One of their concerns — and it's been a repeated one…. Now that we're seeing that growth in that com- S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister. I agree. I mean, munity…. Again, this is $20 million, and I realize this the job aspect of that is kind of where I'm going in the might be pushing that envelope. But is there any con- Alberni Valley. There has been significant job loss in the sideration towards the start of the project to access the forest sector. Certainly, they are perfectly situated to Island Highway from this region, from Little Qualicum potentially benefit from some employment opportun- Village Estates? ities through improvements on that road — Highway 4. That's good news. Hon. K. Falcon: The member is correct in that the $20 Just a general question. Secondary roads. This year, million we're talking about would not be utilized towards it seems more than other years, we've got quite a few trying to deal with issues like that. I think when the gov- complaints about the level of maintenance. We had the ernment of the day was building the Island Highway, one snow issues, but set that aside for a moment — just the of the things they tried to do, rightly, was limit the accesses state of secondary roads in the area around the whole on and off the highway. You will very quickly defray and central Island, Qualicum Beach, north of Qualicum, the devalue your investment if you allow too many on- and regional district of Nanaimo and areas there. Is there off-ramps or intersections onto the highway. any potential for improvement on just the general shape I think it is incumbent, obviously, upon communities of some of those secondary roads? to think about how they develop in a way that will allow [1740] them to access the existing access points onto the Island Highway in a manner that is consistent with what the Hon. K. Falcon: I appreciate the question. The winter original plans were on the Island Highway. we had, for the benefit of the member to give some I don't have details of that. My recollection of Corcan perspective around it, was the second-worst recorded Road is that there was an access allowed for emergency winter event that we've had for Vancouver Island in the vehicles on and off the highway, but it was never ascer- history of the province. It certainly would have had an tained at the time it was constructed that that would impact on those side roads that the member references. turn into a full access for the community. Again, it's not I can assure the member that through our rural road within the gambit, obviously, of our discussion here on program and the ongoing work of the maintenance con- the $20 million. I just haven't got any more information tractors, we will do our level best to get at those projects except what I recall. and make improvements. Indeed, if they form part of the recommendations coming out of the district office S. Fraser: Just for the record, that access is a gated or the maintenance contractors, it could even involve access through private lands. It doesn't provide the uni- some of the dollars that we're talking about here. versal access that certainly the residents are hoping for. But you know, I think the key thing is that we want The issues are more now around access for — I mean, to get people put to work now and get some of those there's ease of access, of course — emergency vehicles, improvements done quickly. school buses, that sort of thing. 14126 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

Hopefully, as — not this pocket of money — budgets What I'll do, then, is look into whether the items that unfold, that can be looked at in the interests of public they've identified in your area will include Missezula. safety as well as, of course, the growth of the commun- Hopefully, that would have been on the radar screen of ities there. Thank you to the minister and his staff for either the district office or the maintenance contractor, their time. because I know we have talked about this before. [1745] In terms of the Walhachin left-hand turn lane, it would be an unlikely candidate, primarily because it's H. Lali: I'd like to start off by thanking the staff that is probably just too large in terms of the design work. I with the minister and also his regional and local staff. We don't know if there are property acquisition issues that have a very good rapport with folks in the region in terms would be necessitated by a project like that, but I suspect of answering some of the questions that we have on local that's probably too large for the project we're talking issues. So I wanted to put that on the record to begin with. about. Hopefully, that helps answer…. I've got three questions that I'm going to ask. The first one…. I just want to point out that there's a road H. Lali: Yes, I understand these couple of items that called the Summers Creek Road near Princeton. It's I'm going to mention probably would not fit in terms of also known as the Missezula Lake road. I have talked to criteria. The minister was up in Lillooet in the summer, some of the local highways officials there. A little bit of and I want to thank the minister and his staff for the extra funds are actually needed, perhaps not in one year announcements that were made for road and bridge but over a three-year period. improvements in the Lillooet area. It's just for simple things like grading, gravelling, One issue up there that the mayor and council at the ditching and clearing some brush along the side that time brought forward was the Pioneer Road 40, which is interferes with the daily traffic that comes in and out of through downtown in the district of Lillooet. Last time, Missezula Lake towards Princeton and even some large obviously, the revitalization that took place was in '93- rocks cropping out from the road. It's about $250,000 94, so it's about 15 years back. over a three-year period. That's one road there. [1750] The other one is a small community called Walhachin Obviously, there's potholing, and some of the surface just off the Trans-Canada Highway between Cache is coming apart with heavy traffic that's going through Creek and Kamloops. If you're going to Cache Creek there. Obviously, we'll be looking for support from the from Kamloops, folks are asking for a left-hand turn lane ministry on that. towards Walhachin there as they go across the river. As well, the old highway from Kamloops to Merritt — There are numerous places around the province. the old No. 5 highway…. There are a lot of heavy trucks Spences Bridge comes to mind. If you're heading towards that use that — the chip trucks coming in from Princeton Vancouver from Cache Creek on the Trans-Canada, there and Merritt. They don't go over the Coquihalla; it's too are a couple of left-turn lanes that are painted on the much of a height. So they use that road quite a bit. highway for folks to make an easy egress off the highway. It's getting pretty beat up. I'm just wondering if the min- I'm just sort of wondering if the Summers Creek Road ister might want to sort of do a multi-year program to start and the Walhachin left-turn lane would fit the criteria chipping away at some of the investment that's actually for this fund of $20 million. needed. Some of the shoulders are falling apart because the trucks, as you know, are fairly heavy, and there's the Hon. K. Falcon: With respect to the Missezula, pounding that takes place. Then we've had the last few Member, my understanding is — and I think the member years a couple of severe winters, so you get frost heaving confirmed it in his comments — that we had commit- and cracks that form in the road. Could any of that be ted…. Was it $250,000 over three years for improvements done, if that road might be eligible under this fund? to the road? I'm not sure if that was what the member…. Hon. K. Falcon: With respect to Pioneer Road 40 H. Lali: That's what's needed. through Lillooet, that would be a good candidate. In fact, it may have been identified.I don't know, but it may Hon. K. Falcon: Oh, that's what's needed. Okay. In have been identified as some work that could be done as the announcement that the member was at when we part of the $20 million. Hopefully, that will be the case. made an announcement together, did that include any I just don't know. dollars for the Missezula? With respect to Highway 5A, as the member would know, he's right. It's a longstanding issue about the Interjection. trucks that utilize Highway 5A, so we're trying to deal with this in a couple of ways. Hon. K. Falcon: Okay, it didn't. Thank you. I'm just One is that we are working with the B.C. Trucking going by memory. Association to try and encourage the truckers to utilize Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14127

the Coquihalla Highway. It is obviously wider lanes. expert advice — will put that on a priority list. I know It's much better from our point of view if the trucks there's work being done on the Trans-Canada and other would utilize that road. There's no toll on the highway highways. This is another one right across the southern anymore, so that ought to act as some incentive. I know belt of the province that needs help. I think if we start there has always been a historical resistance to it in the from a west-to-east route, that would probably be the trucking community because of the hill climb. They'd best way to do it, especially between Hope and Princeton like to avoid that by using 5A. But again, that is work — if that might not be on the minister's priority list. that is ongoing. I also had the opportunity, with a member of my staff, Hon. K. Falcon: I would agree with the member. I to drive…. A number of months ago — I forget the exact think the Premier made it clear that he wants to see time — we drove 5A so I could look at it firsthand.I had some good investment on Highway 3 and particularly received a call from a rancher, while I was on a radio on bridge replacement opportunities. We will, on the program in Kamloops, who suggested that the road was section between Hope and Princeton, be doing some in really tough shape. It wasn't entirely borne out during significant repaving. I think there's some bridge replace- my trip, but there were rough patches, for sure. ment work that's going to be underway this year. So we I know that ministry staff committed to undertaking are moving forward with that. some repavement. In fact, there was some work under- We have identified Highway 3 projects as priority way while I was driving the highway. We intend to do projects that we would like to see underway. A lot of more on 5A to continue to improve the standard for the the work and design work and property issues are being benefit of the communities. dealt with. We are hopeful that there will be a number of [1755] projects underway on Highway 3 this year and indeed in the coming years that will make, I think, a dramatic H. Lali: I thank the minister for that answer. improvement to Highway 3. My final question. I'll just make a general statement first. You know,H ighway 3 from Hope all the way down M. Karagianis: The minister has kind of answered to the Alberta border is very essential for the southern a number of the questions here of members, but we part of British Columbia. It's a main route, as you know, haven't really heard a lot of specifics. Will there be a with dozens of communities along the way. series of announcements? I know the minister is talk- Some of them might be small communities, but it ing about this $20 million being spent in a very short is a lifeline for all of those small communities starting window of opportunity. Is that going to just seamlessly from the Hope area, my constituency, the Similkameen, roll out by the local maintenance contractors, or will through the Boundary country, all the way through the there be a series of announcements as these projects are southern Kootenays and right to the Alberta border, identified in communities? with multiples of communities along that road. Like I mentioned, it's very, very important not only as a life- Hon. K. Falcon: The short answer is no, there won't line for business and commerce and industry but also be announcements. Announcements, frankly, would for tourists that come up there. A lot of folks come up hold up the process of getting the dollars out into com- from the United States bringing their tourist dollars with munities and getting people hired. them. So that's my statement. We announced that we were doing the program, At the same time, there's a committee of mayors obviously. The Premier announced it as part of the ten- along Highway 3 that had been formed over the last sev- point plan back in October to get the economy moving. eral years. They've met on a regular basis. The mayors Our whole goal is to get those dollars into communities, themselves actually identified Hope to Princeton as get people hired, get local equipment hired and get the section that is most in need of upgrading, repair or them to work immediately. That means there will not be repavement work. announcements around that. It will just be work that's get- It's been a while now. I know there are a couple of ting out there and people getting hired and put to work. bridges that this present government has replaced and been working on over the last number of years. In terms M. Karagianis: I do have one further question on the $20 of repavement it is direly in need of some repavement million. The minister mentioned several times that existing work, whether it's hot-in-place remix or two-inch over- maintenance contracts would be increased to take care of lay. The minister and his staff will obviously determine new work. I'm sure the minister is aware of the ongoing that. I've been getting a lot of complaints in my office not concerns here with the failure of vehicle inspections by only from my constituents but from folks and elected private contractors around the province. Most recently officials who live along that road. reported out are literally hundreds of violations, and many That's another issue that I'd like to put on the table. I vehicles are not even roadworthy in many cases. was wondering if the minister, along with his staff — his [1800] 14128 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

Can the minister perhaps clarify whether or not there The Chair: The committee will recess for five is going to be any oversight of these? Obviously, with minutes. new jobs, new money coming into these maintenance contracts, there's some concern here about the safety The committee recessed from 6:03 p.m. to 6:09 p.m. of these vehicles on the roads. Certainly if there's going to be more work and a bit of a flurry of work here in [H. Bloy in the chair.] the next couple of months, could the minister perhaps just let the House know here exactly what the plan is for M. Karagianis: I did want to ask and clarify here. I've clamping down on these vehicle violations? honed in on just the one aspect of the consolidated rev- enue fund, but in fact, it is $180 million. Hon. K. Falcon: Obviously, we're getting a little bit Is the $80 million also attached to Transportation outside the gamut of the $20 million, but I think I follow estimates, and what would that be for? Or is it only the the thread the member is following here. $100 million that would be specific to Transportation? First of all, our commercial vehicle inspection staff [1810] were the people who identified the problem vehicles as a result of pulling over some vehicles on the highway. I Hon. K. Falcon: The $100 million that we're refer- believe it was VSA and, ultimately, Emcon. They identi- ring to is specific to the Ministry of Transportation. fied that there was a problem. They went to their yard That $100 million is to be invested as equity into the and actually inspected all their vehicles. We found that Transportation Investment Corporation, which was the there were some deficiencies, and we have worked with Crown corporation we set up last spring, you'll recall, the maintenance contractors to ensure they put in place to oversee and implement the construction of the Port a system to ensure that all of their vehicles are held to Mann/Highway 1 improvements. That would go towards the same standard we expect all trucks on our provin- things like property acquisition, construction, project cial road network to be, which is the highest standard in oversight, project development — those kinds of things. terms of safety. With respect to the $20 million, no, none of this M. Karagianis: It does say that the contingency, the money would be able to be utilized towards any of their other $80 million is for all ministries and new programs. existing fleet.I n fact, the requirement is that any of these Are any of those dollars also going to Transportation? dollars that are for jobs that have been identified in part by maintenance contractors will be for equipment that Hon. K. Falcon: No. is not their equipment. It will be locally hired equipment. It will be equipment that will be identified as part of the M. Karagianis: I do have a number of questions day-labour lists that every district office has, and will be related to the $100 million, but I do have one question utilizing, in the course of doing these improvements. here which is related to the Transportation Investment The short answer is that we expect all commercial Corporation, which was created under Bill 14. truck operators in British Columbia to adhere to the If we look back at that bill, it's actually called the Port highest standards. I don't care whether they're mainten- Mann twinning act. Is there going to be an amendment ance contractors or not maintenance contractors. They'll to that act now that apparently the twinning aspect all be held to the same standard. If they are not up to of this project is no longer relevant? Will there be an that standard, we'll deal with them, and we'll make sure amendment to the act? they get up to that standard. Otherwise, they won't be operating on our highways. Hon. K. Falcon: No, there would be no amendment required whatsoever to the name of the bill. M. Karagianis: I'm happy to hear that in fact some of this money will not be used in any way to rectify any of M. Karagianis: Is that because, in fact, this has noth- those violations. ing to do with the twinning? That was the cornerstone of I would like to move at this point into a separate line of the debate at the time. We have now the Transportation questioning here that I hope that the minister is prepared Investment Corporation. Money is going into it. It was to discuss, and this is the $100 million of funding from created under Bill 14. Does it make Bill 14 sort of an the consolidated revenue fund that is being provided in irrelevant move that was made? these supplementary estimates for "Loans, investments and other requirements," funding for an investment in Hon. K. Falcon: I'm trying to follow the member's line the Transportation Investment Corporation related to here. The Transportation Investment Corporation was the Port Mann project. I would like to ask the minister if set up to undertake the Port Mann/Highway 1 improve- he can enlighten us as to what this $100 million is going ments, including a new bridge and 37 kilometres' worth to be used for. of highway improvements, including interchanges. Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14129

What kind of bridge, obviously, would come out as a sible for the new bridge and the improvements along the result of the RFP process we went through. So whether highway corridor over the next 35 years…. it's a twin bridge or a single bridge, it is still a new bridge. They recognized that we already have an existing And the Transportation Investment Corporation is still structure that's 46 years old. In 30 years it'll be much there to serve the original purpose for which we brought older than the Pattullo Bridge, for example. They made in Bill 14, which is to oversee the construction and deliv- what I think is a wise and, clearly, smart decision of ery of this very major important project. saying that rather than having to look after increas- I guess I'm failing to understand where this is causing ing rehabilitation costs on the existing bridge, which the member confusion. is already almost 50 years old, it would make more sense to build a brand-new ten-lane structure with a M. Karagianis: Well, it's actually just in the name of 100-year design life span and go forward with that. The the bill. I do remember the debate on this. Transportation savings over the term would actually more than benefit Investment (Port Mann Twinning) Amendment Act was from the decision they made not to utilize the existing Bill 14. That was the actual title of that.I f that's irrelevant, bridge. then that's fine. We'll simply move on past that. That's how it moved from a twinned bridge, which Then let me ask a little bit here about the progress was the original thought in government, to a single-span on the Port Mann project. In August there was an bridge, which was ultimately the successful design that announcement here by the government that they had was put forward by the successful Connect B.C. Group granted the contract to a consortium that was made up and the contractors involved in that group. of two builders, Kiewit and Sons and Flatiron; and one financier, MacquarieB ank. That contract was granted to M. Karagianis: So what the minister is saying here the consortium. is that, in fact, the tender was open-ended on this for The twinning project that we had been hearing much what this project would be. The minister has talked a about for several years then was announced as being not lot in this province about the twinning, yet now I hear a twinned project anymore but a single project of ten the minister say that he doesn't tell the bidder how to lanes. It's my understanding that in September some build. kind of construction began in some form or other and Is that tender simply just open? We want to build a that by the end of '08-09 somewhere between $84 million project, and whoever wants to come forward and bid on and $94 million in construction costs will be incurred. whatever can come in and then drive the process in a Is that what this $100 million is meant to cover? brand-new direction. [1815] Hon. K. Falcon: The way it works, Member, is Hon. K. Falcon: Yes, some of those dollars will basically this. We go to the marketplace and say to the be utilized for work today, and some will be utilized marketplace: "Here are the financial parameters that for future work that needs to be undertaken on the you will be operating in as you consider putting forward project. your bids, your design work and what you propose to One thing I will say to the member, just with respect do. First of all, here is the toll that you will be eligible to to how it went from a twinned bridge to a single collect. It is a fixed toll with a fixed inflation factor and a bridge…. Part of what we look for when we undertake fixed term.H ere is the number of lanes that are required these competitive processes, under the RFP, is design in the improvement, in terms of the lane requirements innovations and construction delivery methods that for every section of the highway, that must form part of will deliver a project — especially an important, major what you are bidding on." project like this — most cost-effectively for the taxpay- [1820] ers of the province. The final thing is that there are functional require- What we don't do is tell them exactly how to design it. ments. Based on the consultations we had with the What we say is: "Here are the requirements that govern- public, we know that there are going to be certain ment needs. Here is what the likely growth is going to be requirements that must form part of it. across this corridor." All the groups get to bring forward Obviously, it has to meet all the latest highway standards their bids and their innovation in terms of who can in terms of lane widths and safety improvements, etc., bring forward the best plan, the best design at the most but we also want to make sure that it incorporates cost-competitive price for the benefit of the public. the results of the public consultative process. So the In this case, two of the three concession groups RapidBus lanes have to be part of that. The queue-jumper came forward with the idea of having a single bridge as lanes for both RapidBus and commercial vehicles on opposed to twinning the bridge. That was primarily a the interchanges must be part of that. All of that has financial decision, a good one, that was made because to be part of the framework which the three bidding they recognized that over the course of being respon- groups are looking at. 14130 British Columbia Debates Monday, March 2, 2009

Within that context, that framework and those par- First of all, the member should know — she prob- ameters, they will then go to work with their engineering ably doesn't drive the bridge very often, so I'll help her teams, design teams, contractor teams and financial — that there are five lanes on the current bridge. If you arms, and they will put together a plan to present to gov- twinned the bridge, there would be ten lanes. All that ernment that will incorporate what they can do for the has happened as a result of the negotiation process and dollars that are available for the functional requirements the design competitive process is that the contractor that the government sets out. and the bid group have rightfully looked at it and said: Essentially, what we do as government is say: "Which "Actually, we think it would make more sense to build a one has the best design innovations and the best benefits, single ten-lane bridge." in terms of meeting the needs that government set out, Five plus five equals ten. We're talking about a for the best price?" We will make that decision based on single ten-lane bridge, and why did they do that? those issues, and that's what happened. They did that because part of the design innovation In this case, the successful bid group came forward and part of what we look for in the P3 competitive with a very innovative design plan, and not just on the process is what makes the most sense. In this case, bridge but on the 37 kilometres of highway improve- the group quite rightly took a look at it and said that ment from Vancouver to 216th Street, including the it makes more sense to not invest in a 46-year-old interchange improvements that they were going to existing bridge and to build a brand-new bridge with undertake. As a result of that, they were the successful a 100-year design life span — a bridge that, by the lead proponent. way, would be designed and engineered to allow for We then went into a negotiation process with them. rapid transit in the future on the lanes that will be As the member knows, we were unable to conclude on utilized for RapidBus and HOV. the financial portion of their group, but we were able to That is what we would call a design innovation.I t does conclude with the contractor portion of the group on not in any way take away. There is nothing remotely a design-build fixed-price contract on the basis of the misleading about the fact that you could achieve that work that they had undertaken as part of the Connect purpose by twinning the bridge — it would still be ten B.C. Development Group. lanes — or you could build a brand-new bridge. They just made a very compelling argument that it should be M. Karagianis: Well, in fact, this twinning of the Port a brand-new, ten-lane bridge. We agree with that. We Mann has been very misleading. There's been a huge think that the research and the homework that they did public debate going on for several years in the Lower actually backed up, reinforced and supported the deci- Mainland about this. The minister has been adamant sion that was going to be made. for years about the twinning: "We are going to twin that [1825] bridge." I have heard the minister be very, very passionate The other thing I will say about it that is advanta- about the fact that the bridge was going to be twinned. geous and that they also looked at is that with a single A huge public debate has occurred. We have got span across the bridge you would utilize half the mayors who've taken positions on this. There have number of bridge piers that would have been required. been endless talk shows. There have been debates in Because you've already got bridge piers on the existing this House, and now the minister just basically said it Port Mann Bridge, if you built a twinned bridge beside was nothing. At no point was there ever any real inten- it, it would require, obviously, double the amount of tion to twin the Port Mann Bridge. We have a bill, Bill piers. 14, that's actually called the Transportation Investment By utilizing a single ten-lane structure, they reduced (Port Mann Twinning) Amendment Act, but again, the number of piers required by half. That reduces the that twinning was apparently not a real factor in any environmental impact by having less shadowing, for of this. example — fewer piers in the river. That's also a benefit So I would just ask the minister: has this not misled that came out of the process. the public entirely in a debate for the last couple of years Again, Member, you have to be careful about how by claiming that this bridge would be twinned? Now the you look at this. Government always said and always minister is telling me that an open tender has driven the viewed that ten lanes would likely be a twin bridge. That process in some other direction, and gosh, we never did just seemed logical to almost anyone that looked at it, really mean to twin the bridge at all. That has been very but that is the beauty of the private-public partnership misleading to the public. process. You get the very best designers and folks from around Hon. K. Falcon: Let me try and walk the member the world that have experience in every part of this through this, because I think when the member under- planet in terms of building major projects and infra- stands this, she will understand just how ludicrous the structure, and they look at it. They make those decisions statement is that she's making. based on what makes the most sense, has the minimal Monday, March 2, 2009 British Columbia Debates 14131

environmental impact, has the maximum benefit to the The committee rose at 6:27 p.m. public, meets all the requirements that we set out as the Ministry of Transportation and gets the job done on The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. schedule, on budget. That's what they did. The Committee of Supply, having reported resolution M. Karagianis: I do have many more questions, but and progress, was granted leave to sit again. noting the time, I would ask that the committee rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Hon. I. Chong moved adjournment of the House.

The Chair: Resolution. Not on this portion, but Motion approved. resolution. Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 10 M. Karagianis: Resolution on the previous portion. a.m. tomorrow morning.

Motion approved. The House adjourned at 6:28 p.m.

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