AN INTERVIEW WITH YUKIYOSHI TAKAMURA by Stanley Pranin Aikido Journal #117 Having undergone special training in Shindo Yoshin-ryu jujutsu as a boy, Yukiyoshi Takamura left Japan while a teenager and eventually settled in San Jose, California, USA. He operated a dojo in California in the 1960s and 70s choosing to provide rigorous training to a small group of dedicated students. His art, now called Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin-ryu, embodies the philosophy and spirit of an earlier era of Japan adapted to a Western setting. Takamura's deep insights into the essence of martial arts will surprise and stimulate modern budo practitioners.

Despite my grandfather's great respect for Totsuka, he left the Yoshin-ryu after meeting a For our readers who student of Matsuoka named Ishijima. Shigeta are unfamiliar with the eventually received a menkyo kaiden (teaching Shindo Yoshin-ryu license) in Shindo Yoshin-ryu around 1895. system, would you talk Matsuoka and Shigeta both trained in about its origin and Jikishinkage-ryu under Kenkichi Sakakibara so characteristics? they developed a close friendship. My Shindo Yoshin-ryu was grandfather did not intend to start his own founded by a Tokugawa school but had effectively done so by the early clan retainer, 20th century. This became known as the Ohbata Katsunosuke Matsuoka school. He built his own dojo with the help of a in 1868. Matsuoka Sensei studied Yoshin-ryu, friend named Hasegawa in the Asakusa district Hokushin Itto-ryu, Jikishinkage-ryu, Tenjin of Tokyo. Shinyo-ryu jujutsu, and Hozoin-ryu. He based Shindo Yoshin-ryu is well-known in the Shindo Yoshin-ryu on Yoshin-ryu, but added Japanese karate world because Wado-ryu jujutsu concepts from other schools as well. He kempo (karate) founder Hidenori Otsuka believed that the Yoshin-ryu concept of passive received a menkyo kaiden in Shindo Yoshin- defense was incomplete and needed the balance ryu. A common misconception of most Wado- of positive heiho or tactics. The original ryu practitioners is that Hidenori Ohtsuka Japanese characters of Shindo Yoshin-ryu were became the headmaster of Shindo Yoshin-ryu. "new willow spirit," but they soon were changed While he did receive a menkyo kaiden in Shindo to "sacred willow spirit." Yoshin-ryu, several others did as well resulting The original Shindo Yoshin-ryu curriculum in several schools. The original (Matsuoka) line could be more correctly considered a bujutsu succeeded through Motoyoshi Saruse to Tatsuo than jujutsu as many weapon techniques are Matsuoka and still exists today in Japan. included in the curriculum (mokuroku). Sensei, when did you begin your training in However, the popularity of judo and the waning martial arts? interest in weapons training resulted in much of their influence being lost by the early 20th I don't know for sure. My memories of being in century in the mainline martial arts traditions. the dojo go back very far. Both my father and grandfather made me train while a young boy. I Several of the roots of our school begin in the was already accustomed to being in my early years. My grandfather Shigeta Ohbata was grandfather's dojo so I probably started actual originally a Yoshin-ryu student of Hikosuke training around five or six years old. Totsuka like Matusoka. Totsuka was evidently quite fantastic. My grandfather trained at his Were you taught by your father and dojo before he met Matsuoka Sensei. In his day, grandfather? Totsuka was thought to be the match of anyone. Yes. As I mentioned, my grandfather received a An absolutely wonderful technician. In his teaching license from Katsunosuke Matsuoka. prime, it is said he was unbeaten by anyone He, in turn, taught my father. My father and including opponents much larger than him. grandfather both taught me. Matsuhiro Namishiro Sensei continued my instruction after had once been so bold but had lived to become the death of my father and grandfather. more humble. The young tough sort of slinked out of the door as Sensei explained how hard it Would you tell us more about Namishiro was to get a wife looking like he did. Namishiro Sensei? Sensei bellowed with laughter after the guy left. He was one of my grandfather's most talented He was quite a sight! students and my father's closest friend. He also Earlier you discussed the origins of the trained extensively in Shinkage-ryu kenjutsu and Takamura school. There seems to be an Shindo Muso-ryu jojutsu. He had the greatest influence of Shinkage-ryu kenjutsu as well. influence on my sword technique. Although my grandfather trained in Jikishinkage-ryu under Yes, the influence of Namishiro Sensei left a Kenkichi Sakakibara and taught this art to my large impact on the Takamura school. He was a father, the majority of my instruction was in great teacher and his expertise in Shinkage-ryu Shindo Yoshin-ryu. I learned very little sword really influenced my training. His grasp of the technique, from my father and grandfather. My martial concepts and secrets of Shinkage-ryu are grandfather evidently considered the passing of obvious within our school, especially at the his Shindo Yoshin-ryu teaching license to be upper levels of instruction. Although my father extremely important. He intended to pass it to and grandfather both studied Jikishinkage-ryu, it my father upon his return from victory in the was Shinkage-ryu through Namishiro Sensei war against America. However, sometime in that most influenced my kenjutsu. It was only 1944, the reality of what was happening in the natural that many of these concepts would be Pacific War must have led him to realize that my incorporated into the Takamura school. father might never return home. Did both your father and grandfather perish When I was only sixteen years old my during in the war? grandfather formally presented me with a Yes. My father, Hideyoshi Ohbata, was a high- menkyo kaiden at the dojo. This was entirely ranking army officer and reportedly died on symbolic as I was in no way proficient enough Saipan late in the war. My grandfather vanished to deserve such a license. He privately instructed in one of the firestorms that raged in Tokyo Matsuhiro Namishiro Sensei to complete my during the American bombing campaigns. We training if he and my father did not survive the believe he was in the Asakusa area staying with war. Confirming his greatest fears, both he and a friend when he was killed. This area of Tokyo my father died in 1945. was completely destroyed by the bombing. One Wasn't your grandfather afraid that morning he was supposed to attend a meeting Namishiro Sensei might also die in the war? including the press and local politicians. He did not show up which was very unusual. The call No. Prior to the war, Namishiro Sensei was immediately went out and many of his friends severly injured in an accident during kenjutsu including his students started searching for him. practice. He was completely blinded in his left Many of his friends had connections with the eye. This injury left him unfit for military police and the search for him was intensified but service but did not seem to affect his martial he was never found. It was a great loss. ability. Upon his recovery he was as good as ever. We often tried to take advantage of his You mentioned that your grandfather's dojo compromised vision, but it was as if he could was located in Asakusa... see better without his eye. He occasionally wore Yes, Asakusa is in the north part of Tokyo. I an eye patch of sorts. The sliced-open eye socket think the dojo was located between Sensoji and made for a gruesome reminder of the the Otori Shrine. A wealthy man named seriousness involved in kenjutsu training. Hasegawa helped my grandfather build it. He Occasionally, he would remove the eye patch was involved in the construction business and and insert a wooden eye with a slice painted on was also a student. By the time I was training he it to frighten his opponents during a match. I was no longer around, but my grandfather remember one time when a young tough entered mentioned him often. The dojo was destroyed the dojo in military uniform saying that he could during the bombing raids. I never saw it cross a bokken with anyone. Namishiro Sensei afterwards but Namishiro Sensei did. Tears were flipped his eye patch up and exclaimed that he streaming down his face when he returned. He said nothing could be saved, not even my mention of the heiho totsuzen-totsuken concept. grandfather's swords. This refers to the strike from the subconsciousness, so fast that you youself are Was the dojo ever rebuilt? not aware you have made it. It exists in only the No. Several years ago we tried to find the most dangerous and superior swordsmen. It is a location of the original dojo, but everything is so technique of true masters. different now. It was impossible to tell where I don't know very much about Sokaku Takeda the exact location was. Even the streets are all Sensei either. I believe he was an live-in student different now. A few landmarks told me that I of Sakakibara Sensei, but I don't think my was very close, but again everything was so grandfather and Takeda Sensei trained in the changed. The last time I saw my grandfather's dojo at the same time. If so, my grandfather dojo I was only about 15 or 16 years old. You never mentioned it. My memory is not so good see, we left Japan soon after the dojo was on these things. destroyed and eventually settled in Sweden. I returned to Japan many times over the years but It's interesting, 20 years ago nobody had ever never really tried to find the exact location until heard of Sokaku Takeda. Now I get asked about recently. My mother had moved back to her him all the time. Your magazine has done some original home in Otsu so I seldom had the very good articles on him. Many people attempt opportunity to look for it. to minimize Takeda Sensei's perceived influence on aikido. That is too bad because it is very You indicated that your grandfather trained disrepsectful to Ueshiba as well as Takeda. directly under Kenkichi Sakakibara, one of Would it not be just as disrepectful for my the most prominent martial artists of the late students to minimize my grandfather's influence 19th century. Would you tell us what you on what I teach today? What I teach and the way recall hearing about your grandfather's I teach it is quite different from what he taught experience training in Jikishinkage-ryu and me, but his influence will always be there and what you happen to know yourself about the deserves proper recognition. famous teacher? Takeda Sokaku was also supposed to have trained under Sakakibara Many people also attempt to make Ueshiba Sensei. I wonder if this is the connection Sensei into a god. What foolishness! Ueshiba between your grandfather and Sokaku. Sensei was just a man. Maybe all this talk of Takeda Sensei will bring the aikido world back Unfortunately, I know very little about down to earth. Many will, however, resist it Sakakibara Sensei except that my grandfather because it's always easier to convince people to met him during a demonstration and had follow a god. towards him an almost divine reverence. One thing I do remember that I was told by I understand your grandfather also knew Namishiro Sensei was of my grandfather's Kotaro Yoshida. He was one of Sokaku's strength in "positive heiho of ippatsu" (Instant senior students and received a kyoju dairi or victory with one stroke). He attributed this tactic instructor certification. In what way were to Sakakibara Sensei and said that it affected his they connected? decision to leave the Yoshin-ryu and pursue My grandfather worked for a Tokyo newspaper training, in Shindo Yoshin-ryu. as a reporter and traveled often. He had many In going over my notes I find that Sakakibara, friends in government and politics. He met according to Namishiro Sensei, was quite Kotaro Yoshida while traveling. Yoshida Sensei aggressive in his kenjutsu. This influenced and my grandfather discovered they had much in Namishiro Sensei in his application of common so he introduced my grandfather to techniques and his way of instructing me. He Takeda Sensei. I know my grandfather met specifically talked about how Shigeta admired Takeda Sensei several times but I am not sure Sakakibara's strategy of employing feinting and when or where. It was possible that it was countertiming followed by a very powerful Hokkaido because my grandfather Shigeta attack. The use of hip movements in successful traveled often. I had the impression that my feinting is extremely important as, without it, the grandfather was more impressed with Yoshida feint will fail when one is confronted by an Sensei than Takeda Sensei. I don't know why I experienced opponent. In my notes I also found have this impression. It may simply be that he talked about Yoshida Sensei more. I know my embraced bushido to raise their numbers and grandfather was very impressed with Yoshida influence. The military version of bushido was Sensei's technique and regarded him as a martial seen as a distortion of samurai ethics by some of artist of phenomenal ability. Yoshida Sensei was the upper class who resented the commoner instrumental in Morihei Ueshiba being military. Real samurai were not commoners so introduced to Sokaku Takeda. He is also well- the commoner army would be destined to known for instructing Mas Oyama, the founder failure. This tactic was used effectively to of Kyokushinkai karate, and Richard Kim. My encourage persons of samurai heritage to join grandfather adopted several concepts and these groups and the military. It was a grave techniques from Yoshida Sensei and taught error of judgement and the part these groups them in the dojo. We still do these forms as part played in Japan's destruction should not be of the Takamura school. underestimated. But I do believe many who were members of these organizations were I know Yoshida Sensei and my grandfather still simple patriots and not aware of Japan's real traveled together sometimes after 1930. Yoshida imperial pursuits. Some families are still Sensei visited my father's house with my ashamed unjustly for their ancestors' grandfather on several occasions when I was a membership in these organizations. small boy. I remember being scared of Yoshida Sensei. He dressed funny and occasionally Please describe the present status of the played mean tricks on me. One time I even hid Shindo Yoshin-ryu school in Japan. under the floor when I knew Yoshida Sensei It has been a long time since I have had contact was coming! It's very funny now when I look with the mainline Shindo Yoshin-ryu dojo in back on it. Japan. I last saw Headmaster Tatsuo Matsuoka I found out later that Yoshida Sensei had a son around 1970, I believe, when I made contact named Kenji. This was interesting news as my through Taro Kozumi, a student of Hidenori grandfather never mentioned that he had any Ohtsuka and Kinosuke Abe. I believe Matsuoka family or children. The son evidently traveled to Sensei died about ten years ago. This left the America and eventually passed their family art future of the mainline of the school uncertain. I to a student in the USA. His name is Don Angier have also heard that the headquarters dojo was a and I witnessed several demonstrations by him victim of fire and do not know if it was rebuilt. I in Los Angeles many years ago. If I remember think Fujiwara Sensei is in control of the future correctly he was a police officer at that time. He of the mainline school, but I have no idea of his is an excellent technician. intentions. I am not even sure how many mainline dojos exist now in Japan. The last time I have an old picture of my grandfather with I heard I believe there were four or five. Takagi Yoshida Sensei, Takeda Sensei, Hiratsuka Iso, until his recent retirement, maintained a Sensei and Inazu Sensei. I'm not sure when or Takamura school dojo in Osaka. Senior student where it was taken. An interesting thing is that Hashimoto Sensei is considering teaching at a several years ago Don Angier Sensei sent me a new dojo, but the situation there is not settled. picture of Kotaro Yoshida Sensei by way of a mutual student, Toby Threadgill. In the group The Wado-ryu jujutsu kempo headquarters dojo with Yoshida Sensei is my grandfather! It was a still teaches Shindo Yoshin-ryu in Tokyo. I big surprise to receive a photo of my grandfather understand that Shindo Yoshin-ryu does not from Angier Sensei. It must be from 1935 or generate much interest within the Wado-ryu later as my grandfather looks to be the age I now. This is too bad as Wado-ryu founder remember him. Hidenori Otsuka held a menkyo kaiden in Shindo Yoshin-ryu. He received his license from Yoshida Sensei was purported to have been a Tatsusaburo Nakayama Sensei around 1921. My member of the so-called "Black Dragon grandfather knew Otsuka only slighlty but Society." thought highly of him. He was a man of I believe Yoshida Sensei was a member of both exceptional reputation. I hope that Wado-ryu the Kokuryukai and the Genyosha as I believe does not loose its jujutsu roots which makes it my grandfather Shigeta was. I know very little one of very few karate styles to have a bujutsu particular information about these groups. I heritage. I know some Wado-ryu dojos that still know they purposely approached many who have a jujutsu influence as in earlier times. Kozumi Sensei came to me in 1968 from Wado- Weapons such as the jutte (truncheon), tessen ryu with excellent jujutsu skill. Many years (iron fan), sode garami (sleeve entangler), tanto later, one of our present senior instructors, Toby and jo were more emphasized. Changes in Threadgill Sensei, came to me from a Wado-ryu weapon techniques, which were the core of an sensei named Gerry Chau with equally art, also affected the application of unarmed impressive Shindo Yoshin-ryu knowledge. It is techniques. Eventually, unarmed techniques regretful that this has now become the developed more of their own flavor due to the exception. Sport karate matches seem to drive popularity of unarmed contests. This signaled the future of Wado-ryu away from its jujutsu the beginning of judo-like jujutsu and the end of roots. It would be good news to hear that this many true classical traditions. By the turn of the impression is incorrect. century, many schools began to ignore much of the weapons curriculum in favor of unarmed You mentioned earlier something I think is combat. The popularity of judo, founded by very important when you said that the Professor Jigoro Kano, forced even greater original Shindo Yoshin-ryu school is more change on many of the older jujutsu schools. correctly a sogo bujutsu (comprehensive This is somewhat of a mystery as the real martial system) than a jujutsu because it innovation of judo was not in the area of includes weapons training in its curriculum. technique as much as in teaching methodology. Would you talk more about the historical Judo adopted a more scientific approach to reasons for the elimination of a large part of teaching and explaining physical technique. these old martial systems and the pros and Older jujutsu schools still used mystical cons of practicing the specialized modern explanations using ki and other such concepts. martial arts? Scientific explanations appealed to most of the The modern idea that old jujutsu are weaponless public as more modern and superior to outdated arts similar to judo is not correct. The truth is martial mysticism. This resulted in the public there are many jujutsu arts which are embracing judo over jujutsu and other Japanese fundamentally different. The very old jujutsu classical schools. Kano was also successful in bear many names such as yawara, kumiuchi, making judo seem to appear more upper class kogosoku, hakuda, and koppo, etc. Mostly these than jujutsu. This was very shrewd as the truth is are true koryu (classical martial schools) and exactly the opposite. Judo is more a commoner's were conceived for battlefield combat against art while jujutsu was an art of the samurai. armor-clad soldiers. Most of these systems were So, what is commonly called jujutsu today is, not very intricate as they were quickly taught to for the most part, not the jujutsu of old. What ashigaru (foot soldiers) and include more simple are commonly practiced today as jujutsu are weapons. Some of the more intricate systems actually small parts of complete martial systems included advanced techniques and weapons such called bujutsu or bugei. There are many reasons as the kusarigama (chain-and-sickle), tanto for learning only part of a martial system. The (knife), or even kodachi (short sword). They most obvious is the simple truth of the changing were invented so that lightly armed and armored reality of the environment. Changes in samurai could successfully engage superior technology and military tactics led inevitably to armed and armored opponents. weapons falling into disuse. Where a weapon Jujutsu in the Edo period changed due to the system survives it does so for a reason different extended era of peace. These arts adapted to from that of its original value. This is why iaido address the new reality of an environment is more popular than iaijutsu and kendo is more without armor. The old systems changed while popular than kenjutsu. Neither the spiritual nor many new systems were founded. These schools sporting dimension of the sword existed when it still included much weapons training as the was invented. The sword was developed as a basic principles and techniques of weapons were tool of war. Other aspects of swordsmanship still the heart of martial systems. Certain came later. Some of these aspects were adopted weapons, however began to fall into disuse as by the warrior class because they found them others gained in favor due to the new reality. beneficial, but these things were secondary. The The end of armored warfare saw a decline in the bottom line for the warrior is the vanquishing of use of the nagamaki (long-bladed halberd), yari the enemy. This must not be forgotten. This (spear) and other weapons. truth is what makes a martial art "martial." Sometimes old martial arts or weapons retained (secrets of the art). Mastery of these principles their value over long spans of time and great allows a martial school to grow from generation changes. Tanto were used by samurai as an to generation from old applications to new. alternative weapon, but the knife is still on the Through the okuden we grasp the intellectual belt of modern warriors as a companion to genius that appears after years of training in a modern firearms. This is amazing when you true bujutsu. It is like an old signature of many think about it! The knife may be one of the all- masters, each one visible on top of one another, time greatest weapons due to its versatile nature. each one part of a greater whole. This is what History seems to confirm this. makes a ryu (school or style) a ryu. Another reason for learning only a part of a Cobbled together systems which include bujutsu system is simply time. We are not different arts like karate mixed with aikido are warriors 24 hours a day now. The modern world almost always missing the signature of genius. It only affords us so much time to train so we would be better to keep the systems separate practice what is realistic to learn. To learn a because combining them erases most of the bujutsu completely would be a full-time job. signatures of all previous teachers' wisdom. Very few people have time or wish to make They are separate traditions whose concepts and sacrifices of this magnitude for bujutsu. It is truths are not really compatible. They were better to learn one aspect of a bujutsu well than conceived in different environments for different learn all of them poorly. Also, we are free to reasons. Let them succeed at what they are learn what most appeals to us. Some learn the instead of failing to be what they were never sword, some learn jujutsu, and some learn meant to be. naginata (halberd). This is good in that it gives After World War II, I believe you left Japan future generations freedom of choice and and ended up in Sweden. Can you tell us opportunity. briefly what happened? Some people think that learning only jujutsu My family had a friend who was a diplomat and without studying a complete bujutsu is not good. under obligation to my grandfather Shigeta I regard that as the view of a dilettante. It is Ohbata. This friend helped my mother and me better to learn something well than to learn it leave Japan. My grandfather had vanished in a poorly or to learn it to impress others because it firestorm in Asakusa but had arranged our is exclusive or difficult. Learning to impress departure earlier when he thought Japan would someone else and not for yourself or for the be invaded by the American and allied armies. teachers who came before you is not a proper My grandfather especially feared Russian motivation. The best martial artists are driven to retaliation because of Japan's victory in the train because of a love for the arts, a love for Russo-Japanese War. We first went to Argentina their teachers now and in the past, rather than and then to Sweden using my mother's maiden themselves. name. That's how we arrived here. Lastly, there are those of us who are committed How did leaving Japan affect your martial to and accept the sacrifices of learning and arts training? teaching a complete bujutsu or bugei. We are not better than our friends who choose one part Not too seriously. The first two years in Sweden of a bujutsu or who practice modern martial arts. were very difficult. Fortunately, Matsuhiro We practice a complete system because we Namishiro Sensei came to Sweden about two believe and hope that there is a bonus worthy of years after our arrival. He had made a solemn the sacrifice. It does exist. It is understanding oath to my grandfather promising to complete the technical and historical core of a martial my training. He moved in and soon continued school. A true bujutsu or bugei tradition is a my training. This lasted until around 1958. He cohesive puzzle. Every separate aspect decided to move back to Japan during one of our combines to strengthen the whole and many visits back home. At this point, he told me complement each other. The realization that that my training was complete and that I needed individual techniques are not the art but rather a to start teaching. I believe he liked Sweden very temporary reflection of a deeper set of concepts much or he would have moved back earlier. and martial strategies is liberating. This allows When my mother decided to move back to Japan us to embrace and understand the okuden in 1949, I figured he would encourage me to return with her. Instead he encouraged me to the styles. The concepts used in the application stay in Sweden. I was very surprised. Later he of the locks are what are important. These explained to me that I needed to learn how to aspects are what make one tradition different survive on my own outside Japan. Years later, I from another. They are often the okuden. ended up moving to America. When I came to America I discovered that many What led you to relocate to America? traditional techniques were simply not applicable to the realities facing my new On a business trip around 1958 I visited San students. Jujutsu techniques in their original Francisco and met my wife-to-be Mishiko. She form were not intended to address these modern convinced me that the weather in California was situations. When I first started teaching, students much nicer than in Sweden. I agreed, so I asked began to ask me how I would deal with a boxer, her to get married! or with a karateka and so on. At first I was Would you tell us a little about your teaching surprised because I was not sure that I had the career in the USA? answers. I had to carefully examine this. I I first started teaching publicly in San Jose, realized that the answers were right in front of California in 1966 I think. Back then karate was me. I was busy focusing on jujutsu techniques very popular and judo was also big due to its when it was jujutsu concepts that were the inclusion in the Olympic Games. I called what I solution. Techniques did not matter because they taught "Ohbata-ryu judo-jujutsu." Classes were were guided by concepts. New techniques could very small for a long time and composed mostly be devised to address new realities while of judoka and college wrestlers. In time, Taro embracing the time honored concepts that form Kozumi Sensei became my assistant. He was a the art's core. This would not be abandoning the student of Wado-ryu jujutsu kempo under art. This would allow the art to maintain its Hidenori Ohtsuka as I mentioned earlier. effectiveness and relevance to a new generation Although quite harsh in his teaching methods, and era. he was well respected by the students. He What do teachers who embrace a more brought in many students of karate. Around classical approach to the martial arts think 1968, I decided to adapt the curriculum to about this? I would assume that they are address more realistic self-defense applications. critical of your position. This process took five years of hard work but it They are free to have their opinions. I am free to paid off. In 1972, I decided to officially change have mine. I am not really concerned with what the name of the art to "Takamura-ha Shindo other teachers think because my authority to Yoshin-ryu." We changed the kanji shin in teach does not come from them. My authority to "Shindo" to the one meaning "new" from the teach and to make the decisions I have made one meaning "sacred". This was done to came from my teachers. I am most concerned recognize the changes to the traditional with the welfare of my students and living up to curriculum we adopted during this period. the responsibilities that have been entrusted to How did you come to reorganize the me. I am comfortable with the reality that my traditional curriculum of Shindo Yoshin-ryu? students may actually use the art they are That is a very complex question. Let me see if I learning. The same cannot be said about the can explain it clearly. Any martial art is really a students of most teachers that embrace a strictly set of concepts and ideas. Physical techniques classical approach. are important but not the definiting elements of Many classical martial traditions in Japan are a style. I have heard some people say that this is now just pretty dancing. It is so sad. They have not true, that they have secret techniques. So not adapted their techniques to address modern what! I bet another style has techniques that are realities. They cling only to antiquated forms similar to their "secret techniques." I would and, in this process, often neglect the concepts guess that what they actually have is more which form a particular tradition's core. Some correctly described as secret concepts. All people wish to preserve the arts exactly as they jujutsu traditions do similar joint locks because were in olden times. This is commendable, but the joints in all human beings operate in the usually folly. With very fews exceptions, no same way. There really are no new joint locks. existing classical school reflects even a fraction It's how they perform the locks that differentiate of the art's technical heritage as practiced in times past. It is impossible for any teacher to How did you find learning and teaching transmit 100% of an art's traditions, yet many different in the West compared to Japan? classical schools believe that the student should When I first came to America I realized that the do everything exactly like the teacher in order to Western mind was not going to be taught in the preserve the art. Without the addition of an same way as a Japanese mind. The American instructor's own wisdom, experience and, most situation was just too different. Americans are importantly, technical innovation, the art is but a by nature more skeptical and suspicious than hollow shell of what it once was in just several Japanese. Western freedom of thought permits a generations. Without the consideration of student to examine and question things in a way modern realities to challenge an art's that would be totally inappropriate in Japan. effectiveness, it becomes a museum piece whose This is both good and bad. only modern relevance is that of a historical curiosity. Remember that the ryu as they existed On the bad side, it can lead a student to dismiss in the Warring States era were constantly a technique or concept as invalid just because he changing and adjusting to the realities they faced has not put in the time to learn it properly or on the battlefield. Only when this period ended delve into its secrets. Students that fall into this did the innovation slow. Many of the classical trap never master their basics. Later in their schools as practised today are, at their best, training you find gaping holes left by ignoring reflections of the way that tradition operated in important lessons that the student chose not to one short period of its existence. They are not an pursue because he couldn't see the value in accurate reflection of its technical existence over them. When I find a student like this I usually its whole history. will not accept him. It is too much trouble to undo the damage done by this mindset and a The risk of classical thinking has many mediocre sensei. historical examples which should cause one to pause. Katsuyori Takeda (1546-82, son of On the good side, it allows for a much greater Shingen Takeda and daimyo of the Azuchi- flow of information between student and Momoyama period) clung foolishly to outdated teacher. It also allows a greater level of techniques of battlefield engagement even creativity by the student. Students with strong though he was aware that its effectiveness was basics and freedom of thought far outdistance seriously compromised. New strategies the more traditional Japanese model. involving a devastating technical innovation, the The best of both worlds actually exists in tanegashima (musket), were employed by his concept in Japan. It is called shu-ha-ri. [lit., enemies. His samurai were cut to pieces in protecting the form, breaking the form, rotating volleys of musket fire by Nobunaga distancing one's self from the form] It is a Oda's foot soldiers. One of the most impressive theoretical method for transmitting any classical armies in Japan's history was efficiently school. In practice, however, I believe it has had decimated because its leader was unable to part limited success. Cultural realities in Japan with a strategy that he knew was compromised historically don't encourage individuality. So by changing realities. Romantically drawn into while a great foundation for learning is built, the doing things as they had been done succesfully creative freedom to expand upon it is seldom in the past, he was defeated by his classical realized. For proof of this just look at what has mindset. This strategy of old, and Takeda's happened in judo, or even sumo, for that matter. failure to adapt in the face of overwhelming The more innovative foreigners have been evidence to change, cost him everything. dominating judo. Europeans and Koreans are I will not allow a similar flaw in technique or impressively driving the technical innovations in mindset to compromise my students' potential that sport. Foreigners are slowly making these safety. My grandfather often emphasized that same inroads into sumo. my jujutsu must really work. That it must Sometimes shu-ha-ri is correctly applied and become my own jujutsu. And that someday my innovative traditionalism keeps the art's core and students' jujutsu must become their own. That practical truths intact. Tenshin Shoden Katori was his legacy to me and it should be my legacy Shinto-ryu is one of the rare examples in the to them as well as him. world of classical martial arts where shu-ha-ri has in my opinion been successful. I understand that you are extremely selective spiritual pursuit is an honorable thing and I about who you choose as a student. What are believe this was the ultimate aim of Ueshiba the criteria you use when selecting a potential Sensei. But the spiritual aspects of the art are student? more likely to apply when it is taught as a martial art. Martial arts are a big responsibility! The question about how I select a student is Martial ability is a tool that allows spiritual difficult to answer. Much of my criteria is based discipline to flourish and work magic on the on gut feeling or "kan no me wa tsuyoi." I just soul. The heart and mind must wrestle with look at a student, look in his eyes and see what I demons and be victorious to find enlightenment. see. If I don't feel and see what I am looking for, Without a struggle, the character never really is I just say, "No thanks." I am very sensitive to challenged and never matures. That is why someone's potential for learning. I do not like shugyo (ascetic discipline) is so important. un-teaching students either. I prefer a student with past martial arts' experience, but also a Some aikido teachers talk a lot about non- totally open mind. See, it's not so much that I am violence, but fail to understand this truth. A selective, it's just that so few potential students pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to have the proper qualities. make a choice between violence and non- violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim Some people observing your training might in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of consider it unusally rough. Is this true? impending destruction of the enemy he chooses I don't think that is an accurate observation. The non-violence. He chooses peace. He must be term "rough" implies to me frequent serious able to make a choice. He must have the genuine injuries. Are we more realitic in the way we ability to destroy his enemy and then choose not approach our training? I must say yes. When we to. I have heard this excuse made. "I choose to practice striking, we strike very hard. If you be a pacifist before learning techniques so I do miss your block or technique you will get hit not need to learn the power of destruction." This hard. We practice unorthodox attacks and we shows no comprehension of the mind of the true practice them at very high speed compared to warrior. This is just a rationalization to cover the most dojos. We intend to instill a more realistic fear of injury or hard training. The true warrior amount of stress into our situational training. who chooses to be a pacifist is willing to stand The fear of receiving hard strikes at high speed and die for his principles. People claiming to be creates stress that simulates the fear response pacifists who rationalize to avoid hard training felt in a genuine confrontation. Eliminating this or injury will flee instead of standing and dying type of training only converts the art into for principle. They are just cowards. Only a calisthenics. It does nothing to prevent injuries. warrior who has tempered his spirit in conflict The false sense of security that exists in many and who has confronted himself and his greatest dojos actually causes a complacent mind and fears can in my opinion make the choice to be a increases injuries. With a complacent mind a true pacifist. student is allowed to relax his situational Years ago I saw an aikido instructor named awareness. He lets his guard down and gets Tadashi Abe in France. He was a true warrior in injured. If you want to see a lot of injuries, go to every way. He was a great example of a man some aikido dojos. People are frequently injured with martial spirit flaming in his belly while the because they don't feel threatened in that spirit of harmony was visible in his eye. He was harmonious environment. In my dojo the a real credit to Ueshiba Sensei's technical and techniques are not harmonious, they are spiritual legacy. He is 100% samurai! threatening. I find your thinking on this subject Some aikido teachers teach aikido as a martial fascinating. Can you expand on this theme a art while others don't. This is okay as long as the little more? teacher is honest with his students about the aim of his teaching. Some teachers claim there are The term "martial art" is thrown around a lot teaching a martial art when they are not. I without any idea of its meaning. "Martial" believe this is a big mistake. Other aikido means "war" or "conflict." In a martial arts dojo teachers teach the art as a purely spiritual we train for conflict. Without physical and discipline and are honest about this with their psychological conflict there is no "martial" in students. This is okay by me. Aikido as a martial art. Fear, to be overcome, must be confronted and experienced. Fear must become spiritual training. Often spiritual lip service is a part of your life experience. Appreciation of fear pretty covering to hide a corrupt heart and the appropriate reaction when confronting underneath. The sign of true enlightenment is fear is the sign of a mature martial artist. Are not not fancy technique, flowery talk or spiritual your dojo mates and teacher the ones that you pontification, but is evident in the clear eye of should ultimately trust when learning to the teacher and the respectful eye of the student confront your fears? In a real dojo, they are. who looks at the teacher. Look and you will see. Remember that most people who call What about the sempai (senior) and kohai themselves martial artists are nothing of the sort. (junior) system in martial arts? Most dojos are not martial arts dojos either. These are other terms we don't really use in They are glorified social clubs thriving in an Shindo Yoshin-ryu. They are terms more environment of emotional stimulation which is common to modern martial arts. These concepts heightened by a false or extremely limited are actually more recent and used as a tool for perception of danger. When real danger shows the enforcement of discipline within a large itself in such a dojo, the participants run for group of conscripted military personnel. In cover. In a real dojo the participants run towards karate dojos with military-like discipline, this the conflict. system is often strictly enforced to the point of Sensei, what are your thoughts on the cruelty. I even see the sempai-kohai system concepts of tori and uke in martial arts enforced to an unhealthy level in some aikido practice? dojos. In the military, it may be a positive thing to make the chain of command obvious and In Shindo Yoshin-ryu we do not use the terms assure a cohesive group mentality, but tori and uke much, but the concepts are the remember that samurai were not a conscripted same. By tori you mean the person executing the army. The group dynamic of a samurai clan was technique and by uke you mean the person very different from that of a modern army. The receiving the technique. These terms are same is true for a bujutsu dojo—it is not the common in modern budo, but not very common army. Do we need this sort of system in the in traditional bujutsu. In modern arts, the teacher dojo? Not my dojo! I do not need to bark, "Osu" usually demonstrates a technique on an uke who at my students or wish them to respond with is a student. Although sometimes this is done in group shouts. This is not really useful in a true bujutsu, it is often the other way around. The bujutsu dojo. The training and responsibility of teacher only demonstrates when students are students is much more personalized. Is there beginners or don't know the technique. Then, the obvious seniority in the Takamura-ha bujutsu senior students demonstrate on the teacher. dojo? Yes and no. We have no rank and no Eventually, all of the students demonstrate on specific uniform that demonstrates seniority. No the teacher. The student executes a technique on one is asked to do any task that I or other the teacher to allow the teacher to feel what is teachers do not perform often ourselves. unseen to the eye. The teacher feels a mistake before it becomes a habit. The teacher feels the We do line up in the dojo according to spirit of the student through his technique. The experience and issue licenses. If you attend one technique also becomes an eye to the heart of of our dojos you will quickly figure out who is the teacher who allows himself to be thrown. senior and who is junior without the instructor This is a demonstration of the humbleness of the barking orders at anyone or watching who teacher's heart. This is very important. Watch cleans the toilet. Barking orders at enlisted men out for teachers who never let themselves be in the military may serve some positive purpose, thrown. If a teacher never takes a fall he is not but I train students to be thinking leaders and not really a teacher, but just an impersonation of ardent followers. one. Students are not just bodies for teachers to Please give us your view of the popular use to demonstrate or show off. Students are the Gracie jujutsu system. whole reason for the teacher's existence. Without students there is no such thing as a Like everything there is both good and bad. One teacher. It is unfortunate we do not see more must remember that Gracie jujutsu is very teachers taking ukemi in modern martial arts, different from the jujutsu of old. Although I especially those that profess to be engaged in don't have a problem with it being called jujutsu it is really much closer to early judo. They have acts normal. He is from Texas so he wears been quite effective, haven't they? Although the cowboy boots and jeans, not kimono and geta. system appears mostly a ring art, I admire their That would look silly in Texas! Years ago my effective application of jujutsu strategy and senior student David Maynard and I met an tactics. I also admire the honorable way the American kenjutsu instructor at a festival in San Gracies conduct themselves. I would like to Diego who acted more Japanese than a meet this Helio Gracie very much. He, like Japanese. This instructor had not even trained Tadashi Abe has fire in his belly but harmony in very extensively in Japan. It was very amusing his eyes. He has taught his sons to act properly. for us, sort of like being at the theater with him When they have appeared at these contests they playing the actor's part badly. This individual just wear a simple white gi. They don't hop brought his own chopsticks to eat with during around in gaudy costumes or drag silly props the festival. I will forever remember the onto the mat for television. That is so absurd. horrified expressions on many of the Japanese Martial contests are serious business. The who prepared food. Bringing his own chopsticks Gracies conduct themselves with honor. This may have appeared very "Japanese" to him, but they learned from their father and sensei. to the Japanese it appeared he thought the offered chopsticks were dirty. This left a bad Unfortunately, the impression the public is impression on many people. It was quite getting of jujutsu and martial arts through these embarrasing, especially to Dave because he was contests is rather barbaric I think. Many of the an American also doing a kenjutsu demo for the other contestants in these contests are not real mostly Japanese crowd. I guess the point of this martial artists. They have no concept of honor or is to just be yourself. Martial arts are hard dignity. I wish the Gracies had chosen to keep enough to learn without trying to be someone or these contests more private. By making them something one is not. public they have attracted men of compromised character who glorify violence and act like Another common misconception is that one egomanical fools. This sort of environment is must go to Japan to get "real" Japanese martial one element that led Jigoro Kano to found judo. arts training! I find this a very strange idea. Violence is a solemn reality to be confronted What does the dirt under the floor have to do with the utmost seriousness. Only character with the quality of training in a martial arts dojo forged upon the hardest anvil of shugyo can these days? Some individuals who spend time survive and overcome the evil of rampant training in Japan reinforce this idea with fanciful violence. Western society is sick with it. magazine articles and story books on mysterious Individuals who conduct themselves in these secrets to be found there. Others make contests without any concept of honor or dignity interesting claims that only by immersing only contribute to the sickness. oneself in the culture that bore the art originally can one truly understand its essence or spirit. I understand you have an opinion on These individuals are welcome to their opinions, individuals of non-Japanese descent who but I must disagree with them. I was born in adopt quasi-Japanese mannerisms and Japan, raised in the pre-World War II culture of customs and take them to extreme. I am very Japan, in a family linked for generations to curious to hear your response on this subject many martial arts. I have since lived many years as I have met many of these types of in Europe, America and back in Japan. I believe individuals over the years! some of these Japanophiles are honest and well- These persons you talk of are very bizzare meaning martial arts practitioners drawn to the individuals. It is as if they are ashamed of being romantic image they have of Japan and its what they are. Perhaps they want to be Japanese martial traditions. But others I think are Nippon for some reason. Or maybe they want to appear snobs. They believe by making the admittedly Japanese so they will be taken more seriously in great sacrifice of moving to Japan and surviving the martial arts. This may work on some the difficulties associated with training there, Westerners but Japanese will always view them that they are superior students who have with mistrust. What is wrong with being received superior training compared to their American or English or Swedish? I have a friends who stay and train in budo or bujutsu student who is a teacher with a beautiful outside Japan. If their training is superior, it is traditional dojo and Japanese garden. He still the sensei who is superior, not the dirt under the dojo floor. Many superior sensei exist outside If you had to provide only one bit of wisdom Japan today and many inferior sensei exist to impart for someone seeking a martial arts inside Japan as well. instructor, what would it be? Training in Japan does not make up for a bad Everyone is looking for a master or guru in the teacher. Train with a superior teacher abroad. West, but the word "master" is so overused Why go to Japan to train with an inferior today as to be meaningless, much like having a teacher? Also, to imagine that the post-World black belt today is meaningless. A genuine War II modern Japan of today bears any master is almost impossible to find because you significant cultural resemblence to that of feudal won't quickly recognize him. He is much more era Japan requires one to ignore some most than a teacher. Genuine teachers strive to be obvious facts. This is especially true if you are masters but only one in a hundred thousand training in a traditional bujutsu or koryu. Using finish the journey. There are only a handful of the rationale of cultural relevance just makes no true masters on the whole planet. Funny how sense to me. I have seen incredible changes in they all end up in the San Francisco yellow the culture of Japan in my lifetime. Feudal Japan pages! of old died long ago. The culture of the classical All the time I tell people this truth. It is not martial traditions was tied so directly to the amendable or conditional. Anyone who calls feudal era that the end of this era also brought himself a master or allows his students to refer the end of the culture that bore the classical arts. to him as "master" in his presence, isn't a master. That is just a fact of history. Occasionally, he may be a well-meaning teacher What is left today in the non-violent modern who misunderstands the definition of the word, culture of Japan that has superior relevence for but most of the time he is an ego-driven training in traditional or modern martial arts narcissist seeking adoration. He will have very compared to that of a more violence prone little to teach because there is so little room in Western culture? Language perhaps offers some his heart for his students. Instead of looking for advantage; etiquette perhaps as well. But these a master, just look for a good teacher with a are successfully taught outside Japan. In a more sense of humor, especially if he's driving a violence prone Western society one might have crummy old car. (Laughing while motioning to train with the realization that he may actually towards his old Toyota.) My old friend and use the art he is learning to save a life. That Sensei, Matsuhiro Namishiro used to say, unfortunate realization is worth a great deal. In "There must be lots of smiles along the way or Japan, despite all the philosophical talk of the journey is not worth it." He was correct you training for death, no one really thinks they will know! fall victim to an attack on the way home and [The above interview combines responses to maybe die. questions by Takamura Sensei compiled by The realization that violent crime really existed Marco Ruiz and David Maynard about ten years in the West was a big shock to me when I went ago and a series of e-mail exchanges conducted to America. It forever altered my impression of between January and April 1999 by AJ editor- the bujutsu student who trains in modern Japan in-chief Stanley Pranin. - Ed] compared to the student who trains in the West.