Assent to Bills. [20 Nov., 1895.] Land&; Income Assessment. 2733

and if passed into law could of itself impose JJ..egi~Iatibe QtounciL no burden upon the people and grant no Wednesday, 20 November, 1895. aid to the Sovereign, and that therefore it was open to any amendment that could be proposed in any bill. Assent to J;lills-The Dean Conspiracy Case-Special Ad· (b) The President ruled in the Legislative journment-Land and Income Assessment Bill-Public Council that it was competent for the Coun­ Service Bill-First Readings-Land and Income Assess· cil to make this amendment. mentBill. (c) On the bill being returned to the Legisla­ tive Assembly, Mr. Speaker, the jealous custodian of the rights claimed by the Legis­ The PRESIDENT took the chair. lative Assembly, did not think it his duty to call the attention of the Legislative As­ ASSENT TO BILLS. sembly to the amendment made by the . Royal assent to the following bills re· Legislative Council. 2. Because a tax on the unimproved value of ported:- land, irrespective of the return obtained from Newcastle Pasturage Acts Amendment Bill. it, bears no analogy to an income-tax, but Bega Cattle Sale-yards Bill. seems rather to partake of the character of a rent charge. There seems no reason why one THE DEAN CONSPIRACY CASE. private owner of land should be exempted from 1>uch a rent charge more than another. The PRESIDENT informed the House 3. Because the provision struck out by the that the Clerk had received a summons to Legislative Council would have exempted appear before the court at Darlinghurst in nearly 90,000 out of 140,000 landowners from connection with the case of Regina vers~ts the payment of this tax, an exemption which Crick and others. appears to the Legislative Council to be un· just, inequitable, and dangerous in principle. Re.solved: That the Clerk have leave to com­ ply with the summons personally, or by one of 4. Because as an assessment must in any event the officers of his department, as may be most be made of the value of every piece of pri­ convenient to the business of this House. vately-owned land in the colony for the pu1·­ poses of the bill, it does not appear that the additional expense of collecting a tax from SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT. small owners would be so great as to make it Resolved (motion by Hon. Dr. GARRAN, unproductive. Moreover, if the proposed exemption of £475 were adopted, it would with concurrence) : result in the case of lands only a little above That this House at its rising to-day do ad­ the exemption limit that the balance of un· journ until 7 p.m. to-morrow. improved value would be so extremely small as to yield a tax far below the expense of LAND AND INCOME ASSESSMENT BILL. collection; thus, if the unimproved value were £500, the tax to be collected from the Report of select committee appointed to taxable amount (£25) would be only two draw up reasons for insisting upon the shillings and a penny. In addition, it should Council's amendments in this bill disagreed be borne in mind that in municipal and water to by the Legislative Assembly, presented rates, the collection of rates on properties of small value is not found to be unremunera­ by the Hon. Dr. MacLaurin, and read by tive. the Clerk. Because, as to mortgages, the original provi­ Resolved (motion by the Hon. Dr. MAC· sion in the bill was evidently inadequate, inas­ LAURIN): much as it made no attempt to deal with the large class of mortgages forming a part of mixed That the report be adopted. or combined securities, and securities for fluctu· Resolved (motion by Hon. Dr. GARRAN): ating advances. After careful consideration, it That the following message be sent to the appeared to the Legislative Council that the Legislative Assembly:- fairest and most practical method of dealing with the question was to exempt the mortgagor Mr. Speaker,- from land-tax on the proportion of the unim­ The Legislative Council having had under proved value of his lancl which was represented consideration the Legislative Assembly's mes­ by mortgage,· and to tax the mortgagee ou the sage, dated 13th November, 1895, in reference income actually derived by him from his mort­ to the Land and Income Tax Assessment Bill,­ gage. By this plan the mortgagee would have Insists on its amendments in clause 10 disagreed neither opportunity nor inducement to pass his to by the Assembly,- tax on to the mortgagor, whereas, by the plan 1. Because, as to exemption from land-tax, proposed by the bill in its original form the in­ the amendment of the Legislative Council is evitable result must be that the mortgagee strictly in accordance with the provisions of would in e-;ery case, by an increase in the rate the Constitution Act, because,- of interest, recoup himself at the expense of the (a] Mr. Spe

The Hon. J. H. WANT: If my hon. office by writing under his hand, or if he friend, Mr. Trickett, will refer to clause 6, becomes bankrupt, or if he absents himself which has been passed, he will see that it from duty for a period of thirty days except distinctly provides: on leave granted by the Governor, or be­ A member of the board may be suspended comes incapable of performing his duty by from his office, or removed therefrom, in the reason of mental or physical infirmity. The manner provided for the suspension and removal new clause I have given notice of does not of a commissioner by th.e Government Railways limit the ground of vacation to his becom­ Act of 1888. ing incapable by reason of physical or men tal The Hon. W. J. TRICKETT : It is far infirmity, but includes other grounds. He better to describe the manner in the bill ! may become a drunkard, or he may do The Hon. J. H. WANT: The Railways other things which would not come within Act contains a number of provisions re­ those two grounds. Under the Railways lating to the removal or suspension of a Act, the commissioner must vacate his commissioner. These provisions have been office if he has absented himself from duty embodied· in this bill by means of a short for a period of thirty days except on leave, clause, but my hon. friend's proposal is to _ ot· shall become incapable of performing re-enact the provisions instead of simply his duties. If he becomes incapable from adopting them. other causes than mental or physical in­ The Hon. W .. J. TRICKETT : If the firmity, why should he not be got rid of 1 amendment I propose to move in regard Under the circumstances, I think the sec­ to clause 7 is carried it will be necessary tions which are in the Railways Act, and to recommit the bill and to omit clause which the bill purports to copy, but does 6. Instead of referring from one act to not copy, will facilitate the matter very another, as is proposed by the Govern­ much. That was my object in proposing ment, it is much better to re-enact in this to negative clause 7 and substitute the bill the provisions which are contained in new clause. Subsequently, if the Com­ the Railways Act. Clause 6, which has mittee are with me, we shall have to re­ just been read, is a complicated provision, commit the bill in order to omit clause 6. inasmuch as it makes it necessary for a The Hon. J. H. WANT: I agree with person to substitute one name for another, the hon. member, Mr. Trickett., that it is and to refer from one act to another. If a source of constant annoyance to have hon. members will refer to the contingent to refer to two acts instead of one. No notice-paper they will see that new clause one knows better than the legal profes­ 6, which I pr0pose to move by-and-by, sion the diffi.:mlty of referring from one does not provide for suspension at all. act to another. I have no objection to The Railways Act simply provides that a the alteration-in fact I am thankful to member of the board may be removed for the bon. member for drawing attention to misbehaviour or incompetence, and then it it. I am quite willing to either recommit goes on to describe-how he is to be dealt the clause or deal with it now. Clause 6 with, and how it is to be carri-ed out. will have to be disposed of, if we accept Half the trouble which arises in the law the hon. member's amendments in lieu of courts in dealing with these matters arises clause 7, and I see no objection to them. from the necessity of having to refer from They go a little further than the bill pro­ one act to another. If the course of pro­ poses to go, but certainly not in a wrong cedure is to be the same in regard to each direction. Therefore, I am willing that the board, it only means the insertion of about amendments of the bon. member should be· ten lines to define it in this bill. The other accepted ; because . he is simply drafting day in dealing with the provisions for the into the bill that which we should have to vacation of office the Attorney-General refer to another act to find out. I do not stated it was the same as the provision in think the alteration the hon. member sug­ the Railways Act. But if hon. members will gests is in any way different from what the refer to my amendment, which Ihave copied intentions of the Government really were. from the Rail ways Act, they will. see that it Therefore, with the exception of the four­ is not the same at all, This biU merely pro­ teen days, the hon. member is in accord vides for a member of the public service with what the Government themselves board vacating his office if he resigns his propose. As the Committee has thought 2136 Public Service Bill. [COUNCIL.] Public Service Bill. that thirty days are preferable, I am quite (c) If he shall absent himself from duty for 35 willing to accept my hon. friend's amend­ a period of thirty consecutive days except on leave granted by the Governor (which ments exactly as they stand. The term leave he is hereby authorised to gram}, " employment" is rather a wide one, and or shall become incapable of performing I would suggest that the word "remunera­ his duties. 40 tive" be inserted. (d) If he shall resign his office, by writing under his hand, addressed to the Go- The Hon. J. M. CREED : I am quite vernor. willing to withdraw my amendment, which Clause 7 negatived. I confess I am not satisfied with, and which The Hon. J. M. CREED: There seems was proposed hastily, as the best thing I to be some reason why it should not be could think of at the time. With regard within the power of a commissioner to en­ to the provision in clause 6, it is quite pos­ gage in any outside employment ; but at sible that the Railways Act might be re­ the same time, I can realise that it might pealed, and, if it were, some difficulty be to the advantage of aJ.lOther colony to might be created by a reference to a statute obtain the services of an experienced man which had ceased to exist.. I think the sub­ from this colony to do certain work. There­ clause dealing with employment outside fore, I suggest that in sub-clause a, after requires some modification, and I would the words "if he shall engage," the words suggest the term "'paid employment " '' in this colony " be inserted. should be used. The Hon. W. J. TRICKETT : I will Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. accept that. The Hon. R. E. O'CoNNOR : wm there New clause amended accordingly, and b~ any possibility of revoking the vote on agreed to. clause 6 without the necessity of recom­ Clause 9 (Board to inspect departments, &c.). mittal1 The CHAIRMAN : No. The Hon. C. A. GOODCHAP : This clause gives power to the commissioners to The Hon. W. J. TRICKETT: I move : enter into all the departments of the That clause 7 be negatived with a view to the insertion of the following new clause :- public service to make inquiries as to the (r) A member of the board may be re­ performance of duties, and for the purpose moved for misbehavio.ur or incompetence:­ of thoroughly investigating and reorganis­ (a) A member of the board may be sus­ ing the service. In connection with the bill pended from his office by the Governor which was passed in 1884 by Sir Alexander 5 for misbehaviour or incompetence, btJt Stuart, it was understood by the great shall not be removed from office except majority of the at that time as hereinafter provided. ~'he Minister shall cause to be laid before Parliament that that measure did give that power; a full statement of the grounds of sus- but after some preliminary investigation 10 pension within seven days after such had taken place, the Civil Service Board, suspension, if Parliament be in session and actually sitting, and when Parlia­ of which I was a member, found that that ment is not in session or not actually power was not conferred upon it. A more sitting, within seven days after the com- disappointing, a more evasive, a more 15 mencement of the next session or sitting. abominable act was never passed to secure (b) A member of the board suspended under this section shall be restored to office the objects which the then Government unless each House of Parliament shall, had in view. The board, I may say, was within twenty-one days from the time divided as to its powers to affect this good 20 when such statement shall have been work. The board consisted of Mr. Eagar, laid before it, declare by resolution that the said member ought to· be removed the then Under-Secretary for Finance and from office, and if each House of Parlia· Trade, Mr. John Williams, the Crown ment shall within the said time so de- Solicitor, Mr. Fraser, the Under Secretary 25 clare, the said member shall be removed of Justice, Mr. Thomas Littlejohn, and by the Governor accordingly. myself. By the casting-vote of the chair­ (n) A member of the hoard shall be deemed to have vacated his office,- man it was decided that we did not possess (a) If he shall engage during his term of this power; but we were not content with 30 office in any paid employment outside that. Mr. Fraser and myself persisted and the duties of his office. brought the matter before the Attorney­ (b) If he shall become bankrupt, or shall compound with his creditors, or make an General, who also determined that how­ assignment of his salary for their benefit. ever desirable such a power would be the [The Hon. J. H. Want. Public Service Bill. [20 Nov., 1895.] Pnblic Service Bill. 2737

act did not give it, and Sir Alexander it seems to me that, to make each salary Stuart ultimately stated that it was not subject to the approval of the Governor, is his intention to grarit the power. I have really bringing in the ministry of the day only to say that if the 17th section of the as an overriding power in regard to the old act had been interpreted to mean what question of salaries, over the decisions of is proposed by this bill, the civil service of the commissioners, and the question is, this count.riwould have been reorganised in whether that is a wise thing to do. If the the direction now contemplated ten years commissioners are lo have full powers ago, and I have no hesitation in saying given to them, then, supposing they raise that hundreds of thousands of pounds would or reduce salaries, why should there be an have been saved to the country. I think appeal from them to the ministry of· the it is only right, in defence of the Civil Ser­ day, because that is what the words "sub­ vice Board, that has done so little since ject to the approval of the Governor" 1884, to make this explanation. They tried mean? To that extent the Ministry are to do the work, but they were told that not removed from the sphere of patronage the act did not confer the power upon them; -have not the power of interfering with in fact, it seems to me that it confers very the service taken away from them-;-but little power indeed upon them. . I am very they become a sort of board of appeal­ pleased to see this clause in the bill. I they have it in their power to disapprove, believe it will have the effect of benefiting and, consequently, I suppose, to alter a the service and the country. salary fixed, and the result may be unfor­ Clause agreed to. tunate. "With a view of testing the opinion of the Committee on this matter, I move : Clause 11. The board shall from time to time determine what salary, fee, or allowance That the clause be amended by omitting the is fairly appropriate to the work to be per­ words " to the approval of the Governor and.'~ . formed by, or assigned to, each officer or grade The Ron. J. M. CREED: The hon. 5 of officers, or to be performed by or assigned and learned member who has just spoken to persons temporarily employed; and the salary, fee, or allowance so determined shali, forestalled me. I was going to call the subject to the approval of the Governor and attention of the Committee to this very to the necessary provision being from time to anomalous provision. If we are to place 10 time made therefor by Parliament, be the the civil service in such a position that it salary payable in respect of such work accord­ ingly. But for the half-year ending the thir­ will not· be subject. to the mere_caprice of tieth day of June, one thousand eight hundred the Government-perhaps under political and ninety-six, the salary payable to any pressure.,-we must provide that the deci­ 15 officer shall be such as the Governor may, sion of the board shall be final. U nques­ having due regard to the recommendation of the board, assign to the office held by such tionably the money must_be voted by.Par­ officer: Provided that the said salary shall liament ; but I should like to. see some not exceed the rates determined by Parlia- provision made by which the bulk sum 20 ment. required for each department should be The Ron. C. G. HEYDON : The in­ voted by Parliament, and that then it tention of the clause is apparently to enable should be apportioned as thought best by the board, which has already had given to commissioners. In this way, we shall give it power to dispense with unnecessary Parliament proper command of the expen­ officers~ to decide what salaries should be diture of the country, and at the same time properly appropriated for the duties of remove the temptation to attack this or eaeh officer and class of officers. The clause that man, as has,· unhappily, been too much says: , . the case in the past. If possible, I should The salary, fee, or allowance so determined very much like to make some amendment shall, subject to the approval of the Governor, to provide for that; I do not know whether and to the necessary provision being from time to time made therefor by Parliament, be the it could be done properly by inserting the salary payable in respect of such work accord­ words " for the bulk sum required for the ingly. payment of each department" after the Of course, the provision which makes this words " necessary provision," line 9. It allowance, "subject to the necessary pro­ is a difficult matter, and I should like to vision being from time to time made there­ hear the opinions of hon. members upon it. for by Parliament," is a necessary one. The Ron. J. H. WANT : It would seeni All the salaries will have to be voted; but somewhat of a farce that Parliament should

.• 2i3S P~bblic Se1·vice Bill. [COUNCIL.] Public Service Bill. have an opportunity of saying whether they be going too far to say that the commis­ approve or disapprove of the appointments sioners should have a sort of sealed book by either voting or not voting the salaries, so that nobody should be able to know and yet that the Governor, which of course what was going on in the different depart­ means the Governor with the advice of the ments and the salaries which the different Council, should have no voice officers were receiving. By providing that in the matter whatever. I could understand the matter shall come before Parliament that, if the House thought they would go we, shall be in a position to know what to the great extreme of absolutely putting men are employed and the salaries they this matter beyond the control of every­ are being paid, and be able to draw public body except the commissioners, and that attention to it, not to influence the com­ the public represented by the Assembly or missioners but in order to keep them up the Government should have nothing what­ to the line, and let the public know what ever to do with the approval of the pay­ is going on in the different departments. ments. With regard to the railway service, I am The Ron. J. M. CREED : Parliament aware that this clause is not in the Railways will have the supreme control ! Act; but that is a very different service The Hon. J. H. WANT : I admit that altogether. We are now providing for the the commissioners ought to be absolutely whole of the civil service, and while I free from all interference, but I do not admit that it ought to be taken away from think that there need be any fear that, if all political 'control and patronage, I think the commissioners discharged or appointed that, to a certain extent, both houses of a man, when the matter came up, not Parliament ought to have some opportu­ for consideration, but simply for con­ nity of knowing what is really going on. firmation by the Government, their action Therefore I think that my hon. and learned would not be confirmed. I think the friend, Mr. C. G. Heydon, is going a little bill goes far enough. I do not think that bit too far when he suggests that there we ought to take the control of these should not be in the hands of the Go­ things entirely away from the representa­ vernor, with the advice of the Executive tives of the people or from this House Council, even the power of confirming the either-Parliament ought to have some appointments, a_nd it is going too far again voice in the matter. If the commissioners to say that we should put the commissioners are to be outside all power of being dea1t in such a position that they may defy with, except of being discharged, I think everybody by not giving information, in that my bon. friends are giving them a order that the Assembly might see what little bit too much power. I am willing is being done in the departments. I object to go as far as most people in removing to the proposed amendment, because I do the commissioners from political patron­ not think that it is an advisable one to age or objection, but I think my hon. .make. friends are going too far when they say The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The points that what is being done in the different that have been raised by the bon. members, departments shall not be exposed to the Mr. C. G. Heydon and Mr. Creed, are very public gaze. An officer might be put in important ones. I see the difficulty pointed a position although everybody knew he out by the Attorney-General-that you was not fit for it, and his appointment must give the Government controlling might even be confirmed by the Governor power in regard to the expenditure of with the advice of the Executive Council, money. But, on the other hand, if you and if it came up before this or the other give them the power which is provided by House it might be shown that the officer this clause, it seems to me that you sub­ was receiving a salary perhaps three times ject each individual salary to criticism and the value of his service. It is quite clear allowance by the Government-that is to that so far as patronage is concerned, it is say, you subject to the veto of the Govern­ entirely taken away from the Government. ment every one of the salaries in a par­ The commissioners will have power to ap­ ticular department. The board by clause point, and all that the Governor with the 13 have, it appears to me, conferred upon advice of the Executive Council will have them an absolute right of reducing the to do is to confirm, and I think it would salary. The only power of increasing the [The Hon. J. H. Want. Public Service Bill. [20 Nov.) 1895.] Public Service Bill. 2739 salary-that is, of allotting the salary which other taking away this power 1 For after may be appropriated to an office is given all, in regard to_ this and other matters, under clause 11. If that power is to be the power of apportioning salaries is the exercised subject to the approval of the greatest power in the departments which Government-which of course means sub­ you could give to the board, and if that ject to the approval of the minister over power is to be exercised subject to the each department-what will be the posi­ veto of the minister at the head of each tion of things~ Reorganisation might be department, there is no saying in what recommended, and the board might recom­ way the powers of the commissioners may mend that the salary of an officer or two be interfered with. If I saw that in any or three officers should be considerably in­ way the amendment would set the com­ creased, and suppose it happened that that missioners above parliamentary control or occurred at a time when the Government supervision, or that the salaries of the thought it was necessary to make some officers would not be subject to supervision reduction in expenditure, it might be an or control as they are now, I would not unpopular thing to increase the salaries of vote for the amendment. If the hon. civil servants, and I think that under those member, Mr. C. G. Heydon, presses his circumstances vou would find that there amendment, I shall vote for it on the would be a very strong temptation for the ground that I think that, in order to give Government to disregard the report of the the commissioners the full power that it is commissioners. Therefore, the commis­ intended to give them, there should be no sioners' report would stand good in regard power to come between them and their to any reduction, but their report in regard recommendations in regard to placing the to increases would have to obtain the ap­ salaries of civil servants before Parliament. proval of the Government. The board In the railway service the Government would simply recommend a particular have no power to veto a single salary. salary to be apportioned to each particular The estimates of the Railway Department office, and 'vhen the estimates were sent in are simply brought down in a lump. We each year to the minister over a depart­ want to put the civil service commissioners ment, the respective salaries apportioned on the same footing. The commissioners by the board would be set out opposite the do not submit to the Minister for Rail ways officers' names. They would come before their estimate of the salary of each officer. the Government, who would place those They simply say, "We want so much salaries on the estimates and submit them money. You can submit it to Parliament ; to Parliament. The only difference is this: but in regard to the salaries being appor­ we do not withdraw these things from the tioned to particular officers, that is our busi­ consideration of Parliament, but pass them ness. If you do not like to vote the money straight on from the board to Parliament the service cannot be carried on. We can­ by means of the minister, the minister in not allow you to interfere in the details as that case simply being, as it were, a con­ to what the salary of each officer shall be." duit pipe, and having no discretion what­ Why should there be any difference with re­ eveJ' as to what the salary should be. I£ the gard to this board ~ The commissioners for amendment is carried you will not remove railways have an absolute right to appoint the apportionment of the salaries from the everybody, and this board ought to have criticism of Parliament. They will be the same right. I shall support the amend­ fully open to the criticism of Parliament. ment, because I think that whilst it does Parliament will have to vote every farth­ not take a way from the power of Parlia­ ing of the nioney; but you will remove ment in any particular, it puts the board from the ministry or the head of the de­ on a proper footing. I should like to say partment the power of interfering with, a word about the matter referred to by the and perhaps putting an end to some matter hon. member, Mr. Creed, which also is very of a reforming character which the board important. The power of parliament, which may take into their hands. Inasmuch as it seems to me is most abused nowadays, the whole object of appointing the board is the power which any member of the is to give them a free hand in all these Assembly .has to personally criticise tl~e things, what is the use of giving them a conduct of every officer. He may move free hand on the one side and then on the the reduction pound by'pound of the salary 2740 Public Service Bill. [COUNCIL.] Pt~blic Service Bill. of any officer in the service. It is all very with rega'rd to the objection of the Attor­ well to have a proper amount of criticism ney·General that the powers of the Minis­ in regard to the conduct of public officers. ter may be unduly limited, I should like to But I say that is a power which, unfortu­ point out that the only power of the Min­ nately, is frequently abused. We know ister that would be limited would be the that where officers are brought into con­ power of acting in the dark. The Minister tact with the public, and particularly with would still retain the power of suggesting members of Parliament, that power is often in the House when the estimates came on used to gratify unworthy motives. Some for discussion that any particular salary person buzzes into the ear of a member of should be reduced. His opinion, and the Parliament that some particular officer is reasons given in support of his opinion, unfit to perform his duties, the history would of course carry a great deal of weight of the whole thing being that this officer in the House, and the power to express his has not done a wrong to the public to con­ opinion cannot be taken away from him. fer a favour on some individual. Every That will remain if the amendment is car­ officer in the service who is in a prominent ried. The advantage of the amendment is position is continually open to that kind of that it would have to be done by the Min­ thing, continually open to pressure brought ister openly. He would have to step for­ to bear upon !Jim to do something which ward in the House and to say, I think the he ought not to do under a threat that if proposed salary for this civil officer is too he does 'not comply there will be a motion high, and it should be reduced. He would made in Parliament to 1;educe his salary. have to give his reasons. If he did that, There are very few who are so indiscreet what he said would be very influential, as to put it in so many words, but that is and it is quite possible that he might bring the effect of it. If there could be some the House round to his opinion; but to waydevised by which the estimates of a leave the present power is quite a different whole department could be voted in a lump thing. It might be abused in this way : sum in the same way as is done in con­ The power of promotion might be inter­ nection with the Railway Department it fered with by the Minister. It is not in­ would be a good thing for the service, and tended that the power of promotion should would not depri\'e Parliament of that be taken away from the commissioners and power of criticism which it must always given to the Minister; but if these words exercise. It is a very delicate matter to remain in the bill, the power of promotion interfere with the full power of criticism may be taken away from the board by the of Parliament; but if there was any way Minister in this manner : The commis­ shown by which the estimates of a depart­ sioners might think that a certain officer ment could be submitted in a lump sum I was deserving of promotion; but the Min- should like to see it provided for. . ister might have some favourite in the The Ron. J. ::M.. CREED : I think the department, and might wish to have this Committee will be doing its duty to the favourite promoted. He could then convey country if it carries the amendment. What­ his view to the commissioners and say, "I ever the result of this amendment is I do not agree with you that so-and·so should shall move an amendment, the result of be promoted, and if he is promoted I will which will be that the estimates of depart­ not consent to the increase of salary. I ments will have to be submitted in bulk. think that so-and-so should be promoted, If it is left to Parliament to deal with and if you promote him the salary will be every salary, what object can we have in all right. If you promote the person you appointing a board of civil service commis­ suggest, he will get no increase at all." In sioners 7 Our object is to create a civil that way the Minister will be able to keep service in which a man can enter at the in his own hands the power of promotion bottom and work his way up if he is fit which it is one of the express objects of for his calling, and without that I think this measure to put into the impartial the bill would be a farce. hands of the commissioners. It seems to · The Ron. C. G. HEYDON: One or two me that the amendment will not altogether further reasons have suggested themselves take away the power of the Minister, but to my mind in favour of the amendment will only take away the power of acting which I have moved. In the first place, in the dark. In the next place, it will [The Hon. R. E. O'Connor. Public Service Bill. [20 Nov., 1895.] Public Service Bill. 2741 prevent the Minister from interfering im­ ment of the commissioners or the expendi­ properly with the commissioners in regard ture of the department. The House will to promotion. Since I moYed the amend­ be acting consistently, and will make the ment it has recommended itself to me still bill as perfect as it can be made, if it more strongly than it did at first. inserts these words in this clause. I do Question-That the words proposed to not think the amendment will prevent the be omitted stand part of the clause-put. fullest information from being furnished The Committee divided : to Parliament, and, if it is necessary, I Ayes, 9; noes, 30; majority, 21. will add a provision which will require the AYES. commissioners to submit with the bulk Campbell, W. R. Vickery, E. estimates a report fully showing how they Charles, S. Want, J. H. intend the money to be expended. The Garran, Dr. A. 'l'ellers House will then have every opportunity Lncas, J. Blanksby, J. to criticise the estimate, but will not have Renwick; Sir Arthur Pulsford, E. the power to give effect to what may be a NoEs. very great evil by omitting the salary of Cox, G. H. O'Connor, R. E. Creed, J. M. Pigott, W. H. any particular man. Cullen, Dr. W. P. Roberts, C. J. The Hon. J. H. vV ANT: From one ex­ De Salis, L. F. Ryrie, A. treme we are now trying to rush to the Goodchap, C. A. Shepherd, P. L. C. other, and if my hon. friend, Mr. Creed, Greville, E. Smith, T. H. Heydon, C. G. Suttor, W. H. will allow me to say so, to a very ridicul­ Hoskins, J. Toohey, J. T. ous extreme. If he is right, he might as. Humphery, F. T. Trickett, W. J. well say, "Let us vote £4,000,000 to the Kater, H. E. Watson, J. civil service in one shot." Any hon. mem­ Kerr, A. T. vYebb, E.· King, P. G. White, R. H. D. ber who has held the responsible position Lee, G. of minister of the Crown must know that Mackellar, C. K. Telle1·s, it is almost impossible to carry out this MacLaurin, Dr. H. N. Day, G. amendment. Suppose, for instance, the Norton, Dr. J. Macintosh, J. commissioners were to ask for a vote of Question so resolved in the negatiYe. £1,000,000 for the Education DE)part-­ The Hon. J. M. CREED : I move : ment, and the House were to say, " You That the words, "for the bulk expenditure will not afford us an opportunity to see required by each department" be inserted after what the salaries of the officers are. We the word " provision," line 9. do not know whether the officers are good If it is in the power of Parliament to criti­ men. You give us no information. We cise every salary, this bill will not be the think a million is too much to vote, and, success which it ought to be. Under my therefore, we will grant you only £900,000.". amendment _Parliament will have perfect The consequence of this reduction would be control over the expenditure of every de­ that the plans of the commissioners would partment, will be able to reduce a vote if be disorganised, and every man in the de­ necessary, and will have a full opportunity partment would have to submit to a re- of criticism, but unworthy members will - duction, or else some men would have to be deprived of the power to criticise mem­ be reduced in their salaries, while other bers of the public service· who perhaps men would suffer no reduction at all. It have rendered themselves unpopular by a would demoralise the whole of the service. strict adherence to their duties. We often I would suggest to my hon. friend that, realise how much it must be against the on second consideration, he might with· public well-being that these criticisms draw his amendment, because it will not be should be indulged in. [Inaudible.] The beneficial to the bill in any shap~ or form. complaints made by hon. members of the The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : I sympa­ other House that they have no power to thise very strongly with the object which increase or to decrease the salaries of my bon. friend, 1\'Ir. Creed, aims at ; but I railway employees shows how this power am very much afraid that the amendment would be exercised if it existed. It also would be impracticable. If it is to have shows the immense advantage it is to the effect which he anticipates, then, by the country that the Assembly should have the insertion of these words, the whole of no power to interfere with the manage- the procedure in the Assembly for dealing 2742 Public Service 13ill. [COUNCIL.] Public Service Bill.

with the estimates is to be altered, the wish of the House to make an appropriation, power which it has exercised ever since it originating with itself, which is contrary to the spirit of the Constitution Act. has been a House to criticise the public expenditure, item by item, is to be taken The President went on to say: away. Is it possible to suppose that it I think we must take care in following out this legislation that we do not attempt to pass in would consent to give np a power so neces­ this House any proposal which will involve an sary to the protection of the country~ I expenditure of money otherwise than it has been do not think it would consider this bill as recommended by the Governor. weighing a featherweight in the balance if It appears to me that the amendment comes it were necessary to decide between pass­ within the spirit of these words. The other ing the bill and preserving in its hands House at the instance of the Government, that power. We, ourselves, claim the under cover of a message from the Go­ right to deal with an appropriation bill vernor, passed a bill in which is included item by item, and, although I think we an appropriation in a particular way. The have never exercised the right yet, the right amendment deals with the incidence of to strike out items of which we disapprove. that appropriation. As far as I am at Can it be supposed for a moment that the present advised, I am of opinion that it is Assembly, one of the most important of not in order, but if any hon. member whose functions is to vigilantly watch the should wish to speak on the point I shall expenditure of the country, would ever be glad to hear any remarks before I give consent to have that function changed in a final decision. a wholesale way by the introduction of The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : Speaking at these few words into this bill~ But even a moment's notice, sir, I would snbmit if they did, and the amendment were made, that the amendment does not in any way would it really have tlie effect which is affect the expenses that will become neces­ anticipated 1 Would not the Assembly be sary under the bill. As I understand the able to reduce the bulk sum by £500 or matter, a message from the Governor is £2,000, or £5,000, and would not that re­ necessary whenever a measure will act in duction have to come off the salaries of the any way as an appropriation bill. Where­ officers~ It may be, and no doubt is the ever a bill will entail an expenditure of case, that the power given to the Assembly public money-wherever the necessary is sometimes abused by persons who have result from its provisions will be the ex­ not a proper sense of the responsibilities penditure of any public money-then the of their positions, but it is a necessary bill is to be initiated by a message from power which must be left in its hands. I the Governor. I do not see in what way am sorry to say that in my opinion this this particular clause renders necessary amendment is impracticable. the expenditure of public money : The CHAIRMAN : In my opinion, subject The board shall from time to time determine ·to further discussion, this amendment will what salary, fee, or allowance is fairly appro-_ priate to the work to be performed by, or hardly be in order. It alters the incidence assigned to, each officer or grade of officers, or of appropriation which has been made in to be performed by, or assigned to, persons the bill as covered by a message from the temporarily employed, and the salary, fee, or Governor. When the Crown Lands Bill allowance so determined shall • was before this House a proposition was I do not see how the bo!lrd's doing that made in regard to the salaries of certain work will cause the expenditure of public officers. I gave my opinion that the amend­ money. The salaries of the commissioners ment was out of order and the question was are provided for in au earlier clause, and referred to the President, Sir John Hay, this provision simply gives them power to who said: assign to various officers the salaries, fees, I think the words proposed amount to au in· or allowances which, in their opinion, dication at all eYents of an appropriation which should be paid to the officers. Then it goes it is not proper for this House to make. It is on to provide- an indication not only of the mode in which the subject to the approval of the Governor, and to appropriation shall be made, but of the persons the necessary provision -- who shall receive the money. It indicates that the president shall receive something, and that ann, if the amendment is made,- the members of the court shall receive something. for the bulk expenditure required by each I_ think that it is too much of a declaration of the department. [The Hon. 0. G. Heydon. Public Service Bill. [20 Nov., 1895.] Public Service Bill. 2743

The Ron. J·. M. CREED : I would like to that the employment, work, or duties of 10 such peTson are in their nature such as should add to that amendment these words "for be properly designated permanent, then such the payment of its officers" l person shall be considered as having become The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : I do not for a permanent officer at and from the commence­ a moment see how it will in any way in­ ment of this act, without examination or 15 crease, or diminish, or affect the expendi­ further probation, notwithstanding that he shall not have been appointed bytheGovernor· ture rendered necessary by the bill. If it in-Council, and the period of service of such does not do that, then it is not a provision person antecedent to the commencement of which would require to be initiated by a this act shall be considered service for the 20 message at all. purposes of section sixty-one. The Ron. R. E. O'CoNNOR : I take it, The Hon. J. BLANKSBY : On behalf sir, that it is always undesirable to decide of the hon. member, Mr. Backhouse, I a matter on a question of order, and move: thereby to create a precedent, unless there That the words, "actually employed in the public service at the commencement of this act is really sor.r.e necessity to have a decision. has not been appointed by the ·Governor-in­ Although many of us sympathise very Council, the board shall inquire into and con­ heartily with the object of this amend­ sider the character of the work or duties per­ ment, still at the same time it is in itself formed by such person, and the time during which he shall have been so employed, and if the . impracticable, and the hon. member, Mr. board shall determine that the employment, Creed, might save you, sir, the necessity work, or duties of such person are, in their of deciding the point, and conserve a good nature, such as should be properly designated deal of time, by withdrawing his amend-· permanent " be omitted with a view to the in­ sertion of the words "who has been actually ment. I think the hon. member will see employed in the public service for a period of that he has done good service by directing not less than five years consecutively prior to attention to the matter. It is a matter the commencement of this act, has not been which ought to be discussed ; but, on con­ appointed by the Governor." sideration, it will be seen that it cannot be According to the clause as it stands, the carried out practically, and that really it whole question of the transference of men might result in worse things than exist at from the ranks of temporary officers to present. those of permanent officers binges upon The Ron. J. M:. CREED : I think it the decision of the board as to the nature would be a very desirable provision to of their work. It seems .to me where men make; and if the Committee had con­ have been fifteen years employed in the sidered it advisable. to go on with it, I service they deserve some consideration, would have made an addition confining and by clause 9, which we haYe already the·bulk sum to the amount required for passed, the board has full power to dis­ the payment to the officers of each depart­ pense with the services of any officers ment, leaving all other expenditure open. whose work may not appear to be required. [ Inattdible. J Under the circumstances, I think clause 9 safeguards the commis­ with the permission of the Committee, I sioners against any difficulty, and that the withdraw the amendment, not because I Committee will be perfectly safe in accept­ do not think it would be a wise one to ing the amendment. make, but because I think the feeling of The Ron. W. J. TRICKETT: I look the Committee is against entering into a upon it that the clause will require con­ discussion which might imperil the passing siderable attention at the hands of the Com­ of the bill. mittee. The clause provides that a person Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. who has been a temporary clerk in the em­ The Hon. L. F. DE SALIS: [Inaudible. J ployment of the Government for a number Clause, as amended, agreed to. of years, may, if he retires, be compensated out of the civil service fund. Clause 12. In all cases in which it shall The Ron. F. T. HuMPHERY : No, out of appear to the board that any person actually employed in the public service at the com­ the consolidated revenue l mencement of this act has not been appointed The Ron. W. J. TRICKETT: Where 5 by the Governor-in-Council, the board shall is that stated 1 inquire into and consider the character of The Hon. J. H. WANT : In clause 611 the work or duties performed by such person and the time during which he shall have been The Ron. W. J. TRICKETT : That so employed, and if the board shall determine will remove my objection. 2744 Public Service Bill. [COUNCIL.] Public Service Bill.

The Ron. F. T. HUMPHERY: There is The Ron. C. G. HEYDON: I do not a provision in the clause that the appoint­ agree with the amendment moved by the ment of temporary officers is to date from hon. member, Mr. Blanksby, for the bon. the commencement of the act. With that member, Mr. Backhouse, because it seems no one can find fault, that is assuming that to me that it takes away from the board the public service board should be of opinion the power which it is clearly intended they that it is necessary that the services of tem­ should have in regard to this particular porary officers should be retained perma­ matter. I do not see why the fact that nently. But then comes this objection: At· an officer has been temporarily employed, the end of the clause we find a provision as it is called, for a period of less than five that temporary officers are to be treated years should take away from the board the as having a claim upon the consolidated power of determining whether, his duties revenue to the extent of a gratuity of one being in their nature permanent, he should month's salary for every year of service. I be retained. If his duties are in their nature believe that no such provision exists at the permanent, somebody will have to perform present time, and that that is not the prac­ them, and why should not the man in posses­ tice. It seems to me that if we are to deal sion be the person selected to do that 1 vVe with the clause now instead of postponing know thatthereareagreat many officers who it for consideration with clause 61, when are called temporary officers, and who are ·the amendment of the hon. member is dealt temporaryofficersforcertain purposes. They with, I shall have to move an amendment are not called upon to contribute to the to that portion of the clause with regard to superannuation fund, and so on. But they the period of service for temporary officers. are really permanent officers. They have It must be borne in mind that temporary been in the service in many cases for a great officers generally receive higher pay on their many years-in some cases for twenty entrance to the service than permanent years-as temporary officers, but they have officers, and it would, therefore, be unfair to been necessary officers, the work they did treat them in the same liberal manner with was required to be done and they were fit regard to retirements. There is another to do it, and they have remained in the provision in the clause which says that if service during 1!11 that time, and why the public service board shall determine should they not be permanent officers if it that the employment or duties of such per­ is ascertained by the commissioners on son are in their nature such as should pro­ inquiry that the work which they do is not perly be designated permanent, such person in its nature of a te11.1porary character~ It shall be considered as having become a per­ seems to me that the persons who drafted manent officer. The public service board this clause were of two minds, and they may determine that the services are of such a put in some words here which seem to in­ character as to become permanent, but there dicate a certain amount of hesitation on may be no necessity to retain the temporary their part-I mean the words, "And the officers as permanent officers. It will, there­ time during which he shall have be.en so fore, I think, be necessary to move a further employed." That is one of the things amendment to the effect that "if in the which the board have to consider, so, opinion of the board it should be neces­ although they are to inquire as to the time sary that those services should be retained." he has been so employed, their determina­ I suggest to the Attorney-General, that tion is not to rest in the lea.st degree on having regard to the amendment proposed that, but they are to determine as to by the hon. member,Mr.Blanksby, the con­ whether his duties are in their nature per­ sideration of this clause should be postponed manent. Even if he has been in the ser­ and be dealt with when we arrive at clause vice only one day, they are to inquire as 61, with which it is intima£ely associated. to the tinie during which he has been so The Hon. J. H. WANT : I think we had employed; but that inquiry·is to have no better deal with it now ! effect whatever, and they are to determine The Hon. F. T. HUMPHERY : In that whether" the employment, work, C!r duties case I shall vote against the amendment of such persons are in their nature such as proposed bythehon. member, 1\'lr. Blanksby, should properly be designated as perma­ and move an amendment to the effect that nent"; if they are he is to become a perma­ I have indicated. nent officer. If the board find that a man is Pnblic Service Bill. [20 Nov., 1895.] Public Service Bill. 2745 in possession, and that his duties are not of were worth anything or not. It. is a a permanent character, what does it rna tter well known fact that some of the ablest. to them how long he has been in the ser­ men in the service, as well as some of the vice 1 Why not take out the words "and worst, are people who have been on the the time during which he shall have been temporary staff for a dozen years ; espe­ so employed," as being irrelevant and un­ cially is this the case in the Surveying and necessary for the board to inquire into it Drafting Department. Every one of those at all1 In any case, I think that the officers would, if the amendment were amendment would be an injudicious one, agreed to, have to be treated as temporary as unduly limiting the powers of the com­ officers, and have to pass the strictest ex­ missioners. amination before they could be put on the The Ron. J. H. WANT : I must cer­ permanent staff. But this bill, instead of tainly oppose the amendment. I think that, provides that men looked upon as that the bon. member, Mr. Blanksby, has able, steady, and industrious, and a credit already damned it with faint praise. Might to the service, shall, after inquiry by the I point out the effect of the amendment 1 board, be put on the same level as those It would be that no matter how bad an belonging to the permanent service. In officer was, no matter how rubbishy his other words, they would not have to go work was, how badly he performed it, if through the drudgery of the civil service he had been in the service a certain time examination to qualify them for a position· he would haYe to become a permanent to which perhaps no portion of the -ex­ officer, whether the board liked it or not; amination would have any reference what­ so, although in every case the board would ever. A draftsman, for instance, might have the right to say whether an officer have to translate the Koran into French shall be appointed or sl1all receive a certain in the examination, and afterwards find salary, the amendment would provide that that his duties consisted in drawing plans if an officer has been in the service five for rail way bridges. Under these circum­ years he shall have the right to be called stances the commissioners say, . " we do a permanent officer, and dealt with as a not want to be bothered with all this sort permanent officer in every way. of thing. Give us an opportunity of weed­ The Ron. J. BLANKSBY: The clause, as ing out the drones and finding out the worded, does not take into consideration good men and ascertaining how long they the man's abilities at all ! have been in the service, and let us retain these men, without going through all the The Ron. J. H. WANT: It says the routine they would have to go through if character of his work and the duties per­ theycameinto the service for the first time." formed. If the board find that the char­ That is the meaning of the clause, and the acter of his work is that of visiting public­ introduction of the amendment would ren­ houses and getting drun~, and that his der the clause absolutely inoperaLive. proper work is not done at all, they may Amendment negatived. say, "This is not the kind of man who ought to be in the public service." The Ron. C. G. HEYDON : I will now move the amendment whieh I have indi­ The Ron. J. BLANKSBY : It does not cated. hinge on that, but on the determination The CHAIR~IAN : It has been decided to "that the employment, work, or duties of retain the words that it was proposed to such person are in their nature such as omit ; therefore, the bon. and learned mem­ should properly be designated permanent." ber cannot move that amendment.. The Ron. J. H. WANT: We know that TLe Ron. C. G. HEYDON : Very well ; the temporary appointments are the curse it is not very important. of the civil service. A lot of the greatest The Hon. F. T. HUMPHERY: I move: rubbish under the sun is forced in. Be­ That the clause be amended by inserting after cause certain persons cannot pass the Civil the word "permanent," line 12, the wor

determined that his work was of a per­ The Hon. J. H. WANT: They have not paid manent character previously to the passing anything into the superannuation fund ! of this bill. The Hon. C. G. HEYDON: No; and The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : They have they are not going to get anything out of power given them elsewhere to dismiss ! tha superannuation fund. The Hon. F. T. HUMPHERY: They The Hon. J. H. WANT : They get a very have power to dismiss, it is true ; but the much higher rate of pay than the per­ passing of the bill in this form would pro­ manent officers ! vide that he should be appointed forthwith, The Hon. C. G. HEYDON: That is a without examination or probation. .Af!. has matter we can deal with laler on. We been pointed out by the .Attorney-General, are considering another question, and it there are very admirable temporary officers. seems to me that it is fair that the com­ On the other hand, there are unnecessary missioners should first of all fi.nd out what temporary officers, and I think it would be officers are doing permanent work, and be better to give the board the power of de­ able to say, "Those doing permanent work termining at once which of those officers are all to be considered permanent officers. should be placed on the permanent staff. Now let us consider who should be dis­ The Hon. C. G. HEYDON: I do not missed." In considering that they take think that the amendment is at all neces­ into consideration the length of service and sary. The board have power to dismiss un­ a number of other matters as is only fair. necessary officers. The clause merely pro­ .Amendment agreed to. vides for their making a start with the ser­ The Hon.F. T.HUMPHERY: I move: vice as they find it. The only thing is, that That the following words be omitted from the if they find a number of temporary officers clause :-" Go,·ernor-in-Council, and the period whose work is in its nature permanent, then of service of such person antecedent to the com­ those temporary officers are to be considered mencement of this act shall be considered service permanent; so the first thing they have to for the purposes of section sixty-one." do is to find out what work is being done The object of this amendment is to prevent which is of a permanent character. The the services of temporary officers who are officials who are doing that work are all put to be made permanent officers at the time on the same level, and start fairly as per­ of the commencement of the act from being manent officers. Then the board, having regarded as retrospective in regard to the got their services in that way all upon the matt.er of gratuities. Thecla use as it stands same level, start to consider which officers places the temporary officer in a position are unnecessary and should be dismissed. different from that which he is in at pre­ The Hon. F. T. HuMPHERY: It does not sent. The temporary officers have not give them the consideration they are en­ contributed to the civil service fund, but titled to! upon retirement from the service they The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : I think it may receive a certain gratuity. These does. The consideration to which I think officers will be placed in a better position they are entitled is that they should be ex­ by being placed upon the permanent staff, cluded from the preliminary examination. and it does not seem reasonable to improve The Hon. C. .A. GooDCHAP : They might their position at the same time with regard be entitled to a retiring allowance ! t.o gratuit.ies. The temporary officers' ap­ The Ron. C. G. HEYDON : If they pointment will.date from the commence­ have been in the service only a short time ment of the act with .all the privileges they should not get a retiring allowance ; which that permanent appointment will but if they had been in it a long time I afford. It is understood when temporary think it is only fair that they should get officers are employed that they receive a retiring allowance, although nominally better salaries than those who are perma­ called temporary officers. Suppose a man nently on the staff, permanent officers has been in the service ten years, and is having to work up to a position, but tem­ got rid of, is it not fair that he should get porary officers being immediately appointed something under clause 611 But that is to- a position because it is understood that a different matter, in regard to which the they will be temporary only. bon. member, Mr. Humphery, is going to The Han. R. E. O'CONNOR: I hope move an amendment later on. the Government will not agree to this [The Hon. F. T. Humpl~ery. Public Service Bill. [20 Nov., 1895.] Public Service Bill. 2747 amendment. The work which the com­ clause 61, the words which my hon. friend missioners will take in hand will be very wishes to strike out of this clause places difficult work, and it will be work which them in this position : temporary service will operate very harshly upon a great shall for the purposes of that clause count number of persons in the civil service. I in the same way as permanent service. do not suppose that there is any class of Suppose a man has been fifteen years on persons who will be more hardly dealt the temporary staff, and it is thought a with than those who are under temporary good thing to dispense with his services, employment in the different offices. We though no fault is found with him. Under all know that in several departments there this clause his sixteen years of service will is a large number of officers who are on entitle him to the same amount of gratuity the temporary staff, bl!t who really have that he would receive if he were a perma­ been there for twelve, fourteen, fifteen, nent officer. That is all. Of course it is seYenteen, or eighteen years. ·They would a good thing to be careful and economical have been only too glad to contribute to in regard to the expenditure of public the superannuation fund, but they have money; but when we remember that, not been allowed. 'Ihe country has had however mercifully the pruning-knife is the benefit of their services. They have used, it must result in a great deal of become highly-trained officers, and it is hardship and misery to a large number of well-known that a number of highly-trained people through no fault_ of their own, we officers who have served in the Lands De­ might exercise some generosity in dealing partment are in that position. If the com­ with temporary servants. -missioners went to-morrow they would find The Ron. W. J. TRICKETT : I agree a great number of competent officers who with a great deal that has fallen from the would be in that position. It is very de­ hon. and learned member, Mr. R. E. sirable that the commissioners should be O'Connor, and there can be no objection allowed to act with a free hand in weed­ to his view if we can put these temporary ing out unnecessary officers : but, at the officers in the same position as those who same time, there must be some kind of have been all along on the permanent staff, humanity exercised in doing that, and but I think those gentlemen would get a would it be fair to dispense with the ser­ decided advantage, because wherever the vices of officers who have been seventeen money comes from they are to be paid the or eighteen years in the service without same rate of retiring allowance as the giving them the right to a farthing of com­ officers on the permanent staff, although pensation 1 An officer who has been some they have not contributed to, the fund. time on the permanent staff will be en­ An RoN. MEMBER: The hon. member titled to compensation of some kind. Anew is mistaken ! right is given to the temporary officers, no -The Ron. C. A. Goo DC HAP : The per­ doubt; but as a new opportunity is given manent officers get their premiums back ! to the Government to dispense with their The Ron. W. J. TRICKETT : If that services, and a new danger comes on them, is the case it is clear that the temporary there ought to be some provision for them officers and those on the permanent staff if they do their duty properly, although will be placed on the same footing. There­ called temporary officers. Under the new fore I shall not support the amendment, system a great many are very likely to because I know many officers who have have their offices abolished, and is it such been ten or fifteen years in the service, a great thing for the whole colony, when and· who, through no fault of their own, it is gaining so much by the appointment have not been put on the permanent staff of these officers, and the reduction of ex­ although it is acknowledged that they penditure, to place these men who are should have been. likely to be turned out at a moment's The Ron. R. E. O'CoNNOR : It has notice in the same position as if they had been one of the standing difficulties of the been contributing' to the superannuation administt-ation o£ the departments ! fund 1 That is really the position. They The Hon. W. J. TRICKETT : Some do not come under the fund unless they l1ave been put on the permanent staff and come within the provisions of clause 61. others have not. As no advantage will If they come within the provisions of be gained by one class over the other I do 2748 Public Service Bill. [COUNCIL.] Public Service Bill. not think we ought to pass the amendment, appointment shall date from the commence it being clear, as I understand, that the ment of the act. But in clause 61 there money is not to come out of the super­ is a provision which will entitle every tem­ annuation fund. porary officer to a gratuity calculated on The Hon. C. G. HEYDON: I should the whole period of his connection with the be very sorry if the amendment were car­ service, although he has during that time ried, and if it is not carried I would ask enjoyed very considerable privileges over the hon. member, Mr. Humphery, to con­ the officers on the permanent staff. sider whether the bill ought not to be re­ The Hon. C. G. HEYDO~ : Sub-clause II committed in order to take out his former of clause 61 is quite consistent with the amendment, because, otherwise, the result clause as it stands ! of that amendment would be that if a tem­ The Hon. F. T. HUMPHERY : By porary officer were retained by the com­ sub-clause III of that clause provision is missioners, and very shortly afterwards made for the granting of the gratuity, to retired, he would get a month's salary for which, I understand, temporary officers are every year of his service, even if a tem­ not entitled. It is a very great privilege porary officer, which might amount to to make the.m permanent officers, because fifteen months; but if they decided that he they come on the staff without having to was not to be retained before putting him go through the ordeal of an examination. on the permanent staff, then, although he There are no less than 7,000 temporary might have been in the service fifteen or officers to be dealt with, and the charge twenty years he would get nothing. I am which it will entail upon the consolidated sure my hon. friend will see the very great revenue will certainly be very great. I inequality which will be created by that think it might be as well to provide by a provision. There is no doubt that the dis­ clause that such gratuity as may seem to tinction between permanent officers and the board desirable should be granted to temporary officers in many cases has been temporary officers whose services may be a merely accidental one. A man has come dispensed with, or who may retire after in as a temporary officer, and it has been the passing of this bill. But an arbitrary forgotten to a very great extent except by provision that they shall be entitled to the himself and those immediately concerned gratuity proposed may cast upon the con­ in knowing it, that he is a temporary offi­ solidated revenue a very heavy charge. It cer. He has settled down into his office, cannot be calculated how much it will be, has done his work well, and is quite recog­ because we do not know what salaries nised as really a permanent element in the have been received by these 7,000 officers. department, having work quite permanent I think it would be a very dangerous pro­ in its nature, but yet he has remained tech­ vision to pass. nically a temporary officer. The distinction The Hon. Dr. GARRAN: I presume has been only a technical one. I hope the the suggestion of the hon. member, Mr. amendment will not be carried, and I would Humphery, has grown out of the experi­ urge upon my hon. friend to withdraw it. ence he obtained as a member of the Civil The Hon. F. T. HUMPHERY: The Service Commission, and if so, I think granting of these privileges to temporary great respect is due to his suggestion. officers may prove a very serious mattet·, These words were not in the provision as for hon. members may not be aware that the bill was introduced by the Govern­ there are no less .than 7,000 temporary ment, but were added in the other House. officers in the service. I understand that There has been no absolutely uniform rule these persons have no claim to a gratuity, for dealing with temporary officers who but now it is proposed to place them on have been retired; but of late, the custom the same footing as permanent officers, who has been alw-ays to giv_e three months' have been obliged, during a long course of salary as a gratuity-to give the officer a years, to work up to that position. Tem­ holiday for three months on full pay. porary officers appointed now will, it may There is no provision in this bill which be presumed, be appointed at the salaries will preYent the Government from continu· which th~y are now receiving. They have ing to make that concession to all tempo­ a great privilege in being placed on the rary officers· who are so retired. They will permanent staff. It is proposed that their be put in the same position after the bill [The Hon. W. J. Trickett. Public Service Bill. [20 Nov., 1895.] Public Service Bill. 2749 is passed as other officers were put in before NoEs. it was passed. Of course hon. members Backhouse, B. MacLaurin, Dr. H. N. are anxious not to be unjust to temporary Blanks by, J. Norton, Dr.· J. o!ficers. At the same time there is no par­ Campbell, W. R. Pulsford, E. tiCular reason why their positions should Creed, J. M. Smith, T. H. De Salis, L. F. Trickett, W. J. be necessarily improved. It must be re­ Garran, Dr. A. Want, J. H. membered that they have had larger sala­ Greville, E. Watson, J. ries than the permanent officers have had, Hoskins, J. Webb, E. and have not had to contribute 4 per cent. Hughes, J. Tellers, to the superannuation fund. I believe Humphery, F. T. Cox, G. H. there are cases were men have voluntarily Lees, S. E. Kerr, A. T. retired from the permanent staff to get on Question so resolved in the affirmative. to the temporary staff simply for the sake The Hon. C. A. GOO DC HAP: I move: of getting a larger current salary. They cannot come under the Superannuation That the following words be added to the clause :-"Provided that no officer so trans; Act in any case, because it will cease to ferred from the temporary to the permanent operate in regard to fresh appointments staff shall rank as senior to any permanent and if they become permanent officersunde; officer of the same division of longer service." t~e bill they will not be required to con­ tnbute to the fund, and will have no claim This question has to be considered in con­ upon the fund. The question is, shall they nection with the recent decision of the be allowed to have an advanta"e which Committee. By being placed on the per­ they would not have had if the bill had not manent staff, officers might, by virtue of come i~to force. We are now dealing with salary alone, be placed above officers who persons whom the commissioners think have been longer in the service than they. ought to be retrenched, and who, if the It has been admitted by the Government Government had been as strict as the com­ that temporary officers, by reason of the missioners will be, would probably have fact that they are temporary officers, whose been retrenched before now. Is there any salaries are not submitted to Parliament, sufficient ground for doing more for them have, by the decision of ministers been because they have been retired by the granted higher salaries than those r:ceived commissioners than would have been done by officers who went through the rank and for them if they had been retired by the file of the service, and became permanent Government? officers. It would be manifestly unfair that The Hon. C. A. GOODCHAP: I think an officer of the temporary staff, placed on that many of these 7,000 officers will con-. the permanent staff under the clause, should, tinue to be temporary officers, and if they by the mere accident of salary, be placed in do they will have no claim. I think the a position superior to that of an officer who moderate number who will be appointed has, perhaps, been twice the length of time as permanent officers may very fairly be in the service. The object of the amend­ allowed to come under the provisions of ment is that the permanent officer, who has this clause. all along been in the service, and who has been all along looking for his promotion, Qu~stion-That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of thequestion-put. should not be prejudiced by this sudden The Committee divided : accession to the staff of temporary officers. If they be of longer service than the tem­ Ayes, 23; noes, 21; majority, 2. porary officers made permanent, they AYES, should have the right to that position, and Cullen, Dr. W. P. Pigott, W. H. be first in the order of promotion. Dangar, H. C. Roberts, C. J. Day, G. Ryrie, A. The Hon. G. H. Cox : Even if they are Fowler, R. Shepherd, P. L. C. ever so bad! Heydou,·c. G. Smith, F. J. Heydon, L. F. Suttor, W. H.1 The Hon. C. A. GOODCHAP: No. If Lee, G. Toohey, J. T. · they are bad the matter will be remedied Lucas, J. Vickery, E. by the board. That aspect of the case does Macintosh, J. Walker, W. not apply in considering this question. Mackellar, C. K. Tellers, O'Connor, D. Goodchap, C. A. I only want to provide that no permanent O'Connor, R. E. Kater, H. E. officer of long service should be prejudiced 8 T Public Service Bill. [COUNCIL.] Public Service Bill.

in consequence of a temporary officer bers of tl1e permanent staff to do them an coming upon the permanent staff. The injustice, the commissioners will have the justice of the matter seems so fair to me power of saying, " There is a man here that I am surprised that the Government who is better than you; an amendment do not at once accept the amendment. has been carried which provides that we The Hon. J. H. WANT: With all due canno~ place junior members of the tem­ respect to the hon. member, I do not porary staff over the permanent staff, and think he can really see the effect of the in order to get rid of that difficulty we amendment. "We propose to place the will discharge you from the permanent reconstruction of the civil service in the staff because the question of seniority hands of an irresponsible board. There comes in." may be three people in the service, one of The Hon. C. A. GOODCHAP : I do whom is a temporary hand, and two of not wish that an inferior officer should whom are permanent officers. The effect necessarily get promotion over a superior of the amendment is that if the board con­ officer. That is otherwise provided for. siders the temporary officer the best of the What I say is that the temporary officers, three the other two should still go over by virtue of the temporary character of his head. If the amendment is carried it their employment, are in receipt of larger · will forbid the grading of these officers by salaries than the permanent officers. My the board, and it will take away from the desire is that that advantage should not commissioners the right to place them in go beyond its proper length. Those officers the position they think best. The mean­ rp.ight by virtue of that increase only be ing of the clause is that if a man in the placed in a higher position than the per­ service is fit for his position he should be manent officers of longer service. If they retained. We propose to give to the board are better officers, it is quite within the the right to say, "We have the power to power of the board to grade them, and to grade, and decide who are the best officers." give the superior officers the promotion. We want to do away with the promotion The Hon. J. HUGHES: I should like {)£ officers by reason of seniority alone, and to ask the Attorney-General a question to give the commissioners ·power to place in with regard to this. I take it that the their different positions the best men and bon. member, Mr. Goodchap, simply wants to fix their salaries. If the amendment is to protect the rights of permanent officers carried it will curtail the powers of the com­ where they are brought into competition missioners, and will compel them to keep a with tempm'ary officers, who, as has been permanent hand, even though he is worse pointed out, are receiving larger salaries than a temporary hand, on the permanent than the permanent officers. Take the case .,;taff. If the amendment is carried, hon. of a temporary officer receiving, say, £20 members might as well wipe the bill out of a year more than an officer who has been existence altogether. The promotion of offi­ in the service many years longer. If the cers by seniority has been in existence too amendment is not carried, and this tern· long. No one can shut their eyes to the fact porary officer is put on the permanent staff, that there are many people in the service will he then, on account of his larger salary, who have been there for so many years have seniority over the permanent officer~ that they have to a certain extent lost their The Hon. J. H. WANT: No; there is strength, and sooner than take the strong nothing in the clause to say that ! step of wiping them out of existence alto­ gether, the clause provides that the board The Hon. J. HUGHES: All that the may keep them in office without placing amendment is intended to do is to prevent upon them the hard~hip of discharging that from happening. them. On the other hand, it provides that Amendment negatived. if there are those on the temporary staff The Hon. E. WEBB : I maintain that who are entitled to be placed on the per­ this clause will entail a very heavy charge manent staff, and they are better than on the consolidated revenue. There are those on the permanent staff, the board more than 7,000 temporary officers con­ should have the right of placing them nected with the public service, and when there. If the amendment is carried, it these men retire under the provisions of will mean that sooner than retain mem- clause61 they will be entitled toone month's [The Hon. 0. A. Goodchap. Public Service Bill. [20 Nov., 1895.] Public Service Bill. 2751 pay for every year's service. Have hon. because I think it is objectionable, but as members made a calculation as to what it can be remedied to a considerable extent charge this will really entail on the con­ when we come to clause 61, I hope that solidated revenue? It must mean hundreds we shall succeed at all events in prevent~ <>f thousands of pounds. Taking an aver­ ing a considerable amount of injury to the age of £100 each for the 7,000 men, some public, which would be done if this clause of whom haYe been employed for many. and clause 61 were passed in their present years, the amount will be £700,000, and shape. yet hon. members voted against the amend­ Clause, as amended, agreed to. ment moved by my hon. friend, Mr. Clause 14. If at any time any office or any Humphery, who has this matter at his particular work or division of work has be­ fingers' ends. I am sure that many of us come of greater importance, or the duties in­ ut what we were seeking to do. I am That the following words be added to the very anxious to see this bill passed into clause :-"but the decision on the case shall be law. I should be very sorry to see any determined by a majority of the board." objectionable amendments inserted in it. The clause provides that the board may I do not like the clause in its present shape, delegate their powers to one member of 2752 Public Service Bill. [COUNCIL.] Public Service Bill. the board, or may, with the approval of Clause 20. The board shall have power to make regulations for (amongst other purposes the Governor, delegate them to any fit hereinafter mentioned)- person or persons. I do not think that (r) the arrangement of the service in its pre· one member of the board should have scribed divisions and the facilitation of 5 power to decide a case. One member of the working thereof ; the classification of the board or any fit person or persons the-work therein ; the grading of officers; the specification and assignment of work, might inquire into the case and report to duties, and offices ; the determination of the board, but I think the decision of the the order and conditions of promotion ; 1(} case should be by a majority of the board. the regulation of the transference or ex­ change of duties, work, or offices ; ap­ Amendment agreed to ; clause, as peals to the board ; the determination of amended, agreed to. amounts or rates of salary, wages, fee, or allowance appropriate to work, duties, 15 Clause 19. The board shall furnish to the Go­ or offices, or classes thereof ; and the re­ vernor for presentation to Parliament at least gulation of the payment of such salaries, once in each and every year a report on the con­ wages, fees, or allowances ; dition and efficiency of the public service, and indicate the changes and measures necessary in its opinion for the improved working thereof or The Hon. C. A. GOODCHAP: I think of any department or subdivision thereof. The it is wise that great power should be con­ board shall in this report draw attention to any ferred upon members of the board; but breache~ or evasions of this act which may have come under notice. they should be relieved in a great measure The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : It is very of detail work. I move : important that the work of the board from That the words "the specification and assign· ment of work, duties, and offices" be omitted year to year should be made public. It from the clause. should be laid before Parliament. I think it ought to be the duty of the board to We cannot altogether relieve the heads of report what work they have done. departments of the duty of assigning to the various officers the work which they The Hon. J. H. WANT: Does not the have to do. I do not see how the commis­ clause include that-" and indicate the sioners can enter into such details in every changes and measures" ~ department as to say what ea.::h man therein The Hon. F. T. HmiPHERY: That is for shall do. Surely that is within the purview the future! of the head of the department. It is essenti­ The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: My only ally his work. It seems to me that in clause object is to make it compulsory on the 46 that is contemplated. That clause says : board to tell the public what they have Provided that nothing in this act contained been doing. I think they ought to do that. shall be construed as restricting the ordinary The bon. member, Mr. Goodehap, has just and necessary dtpartmental authority of such minister or permanent head of any department shown me an amendment which seems to with respect to the direction and control of me to meet the case much better than the officers and work. one I contemplated moving. Therefore I To give that power in this section to the will leave the hon. member to move his commissioners and to give it in the other amendment. clause to the head of the department would The Ron. C. A. GOODCHAP : I think be only to create a conflict of powers. we ought to insert in this clause the words TheRon. J. H. WANT: Myhon. friend " while stating therein the changes they does not see that the meaning of these have made during the twelve months words is that the commissioners shall make embraced in the report indicated." regulations for the working of the depart· The Hon. J. H. WANT: The Railways ment. It does not say that they are them· Act has worked very well in that respect, selves to regulate the duties of all the and there is a clause in that act which pro­ officers. If I have three clerks in my vides that the commissioners shall send in office, and they are assigned each to differ· an annual report of their proceedings. ent work by me, it would be absurd to Amendment (Hon. C. A. GooDCHAP) suppose that the commissioners should send agreed to: the clerk in charge of criminal work to look That in line 4, after the word "service," the after equity business. words "and of their proceedings,'' be inserted. The Hon. R. E. O'QoNNOR: If they make Clause, as amended, agreed to. the regulations they can enforce them l · [The Hon. 0. A. Goodchap. Public Se1"1Yice Bill, [20 Nov., 1895.] Public Service Bill. 2i53 The Hon. J. H. WANT : If I had any NoEs. doubt about it I would give way on the Blanksby, J. Norton, Dr. J. Cox, G. H. O'Connor, R. E. point at once ; but it seems to me that the Dangar, H. C. Roberts, C. J. clause is quite right as it is. The head of Heydon, C. G. Suttor, W. H. the department will assign to each officer Heydon, L. F. his work, and he will say, "Here are the Long, W. A. Tellers, Lucas, J. Goodchap, C. A. regulations which the board have made for MacLaurin, Dr. H. N. Smith, F. J. carrying out these things." I cannot con­ Question so resolved in the affirmative. sent to the amendment. The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR : I think The Hon. J. BLANKSBY: It seems that the view taken by the hon. member, to me that the proviso to sub-clause vnr Mr. Goodchap, is the correct view. All the will introduce an element of conflict, inas­ power that you want to give the commis­ much as it gives the Governor-in-Council sioners is a general power of classification power to override any arrangements or of grades of officers, and work of that kind. methods which may have been devised by You do not want to give them power to the commissioners. I move : set out and assign the duties of every clerk That the proviso to sub-clause VIII be omitted. in every office. Although it may be that The Hon. J. H. WANT: At first sight this power would not be used in any un­ no doubt the proviso may appear to con­ reasonable way, at the same time it gives flict with the clause, but there are many these gentlemen power to make regula­ cases in which the Government may see tions, laying down duties which are to be fit to obtain certain supplies by their own discharged by every clerk in every office. methods. I will cite one instance within If we give them this power to make regu­ my own knowledge. The prisoners in most lations, they will virtually take the control of the country gaols make clothing and of the minute details of the departments boots for the inmates of lunat!c asylums out of the hands of the under-secretaries. and other gaols. On the other hand, it is The Attorney-General says that we are sometimes necessary in some of the colo­ only giving them power to make regula­ nies for the Government to provide an tions ; but that comes to exactly the same ammunition factory of their own, or to thing. If they have power to make regu­ subsidise an ammunition factory. In the lations enforcible upon all the public ser­ absence of this proviso, the Government vice, they will be enforcible in the depart­ would be simply prohibited from taking .ments, so that the Minister or the under-, any steps to procure any of these supplies secretary might find all his arrangements otherwise than by public tender, or inde­ as regards the detail work of the. depart­ pendently of regulations framed by the ment upset. We do IJot want to give a board. All it means is that the board may power of that kind to the board. I submit determine the methods of procuring any that the other powers given them are quite stores for the public service, but if the .sufficient. Government see their way clear to get Question-That the words proposed to be these supplies from a source which would omitted stand part of the clause-put. The be less expensive and more expeditious, Committee divided : they shall not be debarred from resorting Ayes, 29 ; noes, 14 ; majority, 15. to that source. AYES. The Ron. R. E. O'CONNOR : Will the Backhouse, B. Mackellar, C. K. Military Department be brought under Campbell, \Y. R. O'Connor, D. the bill1 Charles, S. Pigott, W. H. Creed, J. M. Pulsford, E. The Hon. J. H. WANT: I only men­ Cullen, Dr. W. P. Ryrie, A. tioned that incident, because it is one Day,. G. Shepherd, P. L. C. which might arise. I do not think the De Salis, L. F. Trickett, W. J. Military Department is brought under the Fowler, R. Vickery, E. Garran, Dr. A. Walker, Vf. bill. All the proviso means is that the Hoskins, J. \Vant, J. H. Go\·ernment ought not to be bound hand Humphery, F. T. ·watson, J. and foot to buy a thing exactly where the Kater, H. E. Webb, E. commissioners may tell them they ought to Kerr, A. T. 'l'elle1·s Lee, G. Greville, E: buy. In Bathurst Gaol the prisoners make a Macintosh, J. Lees, S. E. lot of clothing for the Benevolent Asylum, 27S4 Public Service Bill. [COUNCIL.] Public Service Bill.

and boots for the lunatic asylums; but other expensive mode, and it might be without this saving clause the Government made a political question of. A ministry would not be able to obtain any such sup­ would be open to pressure of that kind ;. plies from that source. I do not suppose but the commissioners would not. It is a it is a saving clause which will ever be question whether it is not advisable to exercised except in such cases. Under leave the whole matter with the commis­ these circumstances, I think my hon. sioners instead of handing it over to the friend might well withdraw his amend­ Government, which will be subject to pres­ ment. I do not suppose any government sure. As regards supplying certain de­ will ever saddle itself with the difficulty partments with the work of gaols, why of dealing with the public service now should we suppose that the board would that it has succeeded in passing its con­ not be anxious to continue to supply the trol over to a board. I am sure that the public service in that way, which, I pre­ placing of the civil service under lhe board sume, is a comparatively economical way 1 will be a relief and· a blessing to every If they find a system of that kind in man in Parliament, for he will be able to operation, why should they not be very say to an applicant for a position, "Go to glad to continue it if it is an economical the Public Service Board; I will have one ? · The proviso opens the door to pres­ nothing to do with you." The curse of sure being brought to bear on the ministry our public life is this everlasting dunning to have things done in a manner not eco­ and worrying of a man to do something nomical, not by public tender, but by day for somebody in the civil service. labour, or in some other way which may The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : Suppose they suit the views of certain persons, but may dun the Government about getting sup­ not be in the interests of the public. plies 1 The Hon. S. H. LEES : For various The Hon. J. H. WANT : Then the reasons I think it would not be wise to answer of the Government will be, " Ex­ omit the proviso. There are many things cept in extraordinary cases, the proper which could not be procured by public persons to consult are the civil service tender. For instance, there are patents. commissioners." I do not think that any which can only be obtained at set prices. amount of dunning will ever induce a go­ While the Imperial Government contract vernment to again take the control of the with certain persons to supply the public­ public service on their shoulders. service, there are certain establishments The Hon. J. BLANKSBY : I was a which have to supply certain things pri­ little suspicious of something else being vately. The great state printing office at behind the proviso; but after the explana­ London supplies the public service, but tion of the Attorney-General I hope I certain state documents and secret works, may be permitted to withdraw my amend­ which are only known to ministers and to ment. a few confidential officers, are printed by The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : I object persons whom the Government have the for a moment to the withdrawal of the right to employ. There are thousands of amendment. No doubt the Government things which might be required in the will be as anxious as possible to avoid public service which the commissioners being dunned and worried; but if an open­ would be unable to obfain in the ordinary • ing is left for any one to dun and worry way, and who· is to order these things the Government they will be quite unable unless it be the Governor-in-Council? I to avoid the dunning or worrying. The think the proviso is designed to meet such question is whether this proviso will not cases. leave the door open for that purpose. \V e The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : After the know that sometimes an agitation is raised remarks of the hon. member, :Mr. Lees, I for getting things done by public tender. wish to withdraw my objection. It is said that it produces a great deal too Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. much competition, that it cuts down wages, Amendment (the Hon. C. .A. GooDCHAP) and it is quite possible that we might have proposed: an organised attempt made on the Min­ That th_e words'' subject to any rights already istry to have supplies for the public ser­ acquired under the Civil Service Act of 1884" be :vice obtained by day labour, or in some added to sub-clause IV. [The Hon. J. H. Want. Public Service Bill. [20 Nov., 1895.] · Public Service Bill. 27515

The Hon. J. H. WANT : I am willing commission of a minor offence against to accept the amendment. The hon. mem­ discipline-not for a criminal matter. ber has pointed out that some of the civil Amendment agreed to ; clause, as servants have allowed their leave to accu­ amended, agreed to. mulate, and it would be unfair to have Clause 21. Where in this act any provision that interfered with. empowers the board to make regulations for Amendment agreed to. any purpose such provision shall also be taken to empower the board, from time to time, to The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: I think repeal, alter, and amend such regulations or 5 the proviso will require some considera­ any of them. tion. No limit is fixed to the fine or All regulations to be made by the board, penalty which the commissioners may im­ and any repeal, alteration, or amendment of the same as soon as the same shall have been pose. I think the sum of £25 would be approved by the Governor-in-Council and 10 quite enough. published in the Government Gazette shall have The Hon. J. H. WANT: I would point the same force and effect as if the provisions out that there may be cases of gross breach thereof were enacted herein, and such regu­ of duty which would entail heavy loss to lations shall be laid as soon as may be before both houses of Parliament. 15 a department. The commissioners might think that, although there were mitigating The Hon. C. G. HEYDON: Something circumstances, the loss to the department ought to be inserted in this clause in order was so serious that the offender ought to to prevent the regulations clashing 'With make it good. They may, therefore, fine the clauses of the bill. The regulations him £50, and if the man was a good ser­ made may be inconsistent with the clauses vant they might still retain him in the of the bill. If the regulations went out­ service.. I think it would be better to side the powers given in clau~e 20 they leave the amount to the discretion of the would of course be ultra vires. There board. should be some expressed provision to make The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: The clause them inoperative in such a case. I move: gives th51m power to fine a man any amount That in line 11, after the word " shall" the words " so far as the same are not inconsistent they think fit. The Attorney-General, no with the provisions of this act" be inserted. doubt, refers to cases which occur through The Ron. J. H. WANT : I think there loss or neglect, and which do not amount are other words which might be used which to embezzlement. Those cases, as a rule, are better. It has been sometimes con­ are not cases of breaches of regulation. sidered that when these words are used No doubt the commissioners will be men they form part of the act itself. The of discretion; but, at the same time, there words "shall have full force and effect " should be some limit to the :fine. I am have been construed by the courts to mean willing to accept a limit of £50. they shall only have force and effect where The Hon. J. H. WANT: I am agreeable! they are consistent with an act and are not Amendment (the Ron. R. E. O'CONNOR) ultra vires. proposed: Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. That after the word "penalty," the words Amendments (the Hon. C. G. HEYDON) " not exceeding fifty pounds " be inserteil. agreed to: · The Hon. J. MACINTOSH : I do not That the clause be amended by omitting the think the board ought to have the power words "the same," line 12, with view to insert of condoning an offence by a :fine of £50. in lieu thereof the word " full." If That the clause be further amended by omit­ an officer commits an offence for which ting the words " as if the provisions thereof . a fine of £50 is the proper punishment, were enacted herein." the case ought to go before a proper court. Clause, as amended, agreed to. A fine of £10 is the usual amount for a breach of regulations. Clause 24. No person shall be admitted to the public service unless he shall be a natural-born The Ron. W. J. TRICKETT : It is £50 or naturalised subject of her Majesty, arid (ex­ under the old Civil Service Act ! cept as hereinafter providen) unless he shall The Ron. F. T. HUMPHERY : I think have successfully passed the examination pre­ scribed : Provided that candidates for employ­ the hon. member, Mr. Macintosh, has not ment in the general division shall not be required correctly read the proviso. The fine is im­ to pass any examination other than the medical posed for a breach of regulations or the examination. 2756 Public Service Bill. [COUNCIL.] Public Service Bill.

The Ron. R. E. O'CONNOR : There is belongs to one of the Asiatic races, in re­ a provision in this clause which seems to gard to whom there may be very good me to be exceedingly illiberal-one that I reasons for non-adrpission into the country, am rather astonished to find in a bill of and yet we say that he shall not be a mem­ this character. I refer to the words, " No ber of the civil service. This is an illiberal person shall be admitted to the public ser­ provision which is unworthy of this coun­ vice unless he shall be a natural-born or try, and which may tie the hands of the naturalised subject of her Majesty. commissioners very considerably in regard The Ron. Dr. CuLLEN : Quite right ! to choosing officers. It does not apply only The Ron. R. E. O'CONNOR : A man to men who may come here. A man may cannot be naturalised until he has been come here from a foreign country and be here five years. willing to settle down here, and his children The Ron. J. H. WANT : He ought not may have been born out of this colony. He to get a billet ! brings them with him, and they become The Ron. R. E. O'CONNOR : The colonists, but because they are not natural­ doors of the public service are to be closed born subjects they have to wait until they altogether to any person who is not a come of age and go through the process of natural-born or naturalised subject. That naturalisation before they become eligible means, that any foreigner coming here, no for appointment in the public service. The matter what ability he might have, or how matter only wants to be considered for it fit he might be for the public service, or to appear inallitsilliberalityand absurdity. how anxious to throw in his lot with the I move: people of this country, is to be shut out That the clause be amended by omitting the for five years from entering the public ser­ words "unless he shall be a natural-born or vice. Surely, when we throw open our naturalised subject of her Majesty and." country to people of all nationalities, so The Ron. J. H. WANT : My hon. and long as they do not belong to the Asiatic learned friend, in his travels round the or eastern races, we should allow them to world, I am sure, must have found that in enter the public service. We are estab­ every other country there is a similar pro­ lishing a good many branches of the civil vision. He might as well try to get into service in which scientific men are re-­ Paradise on a free ticket at the present quired. For instance, we have a number moment as try to get into the German, the of scientific officers in the Agricultural, the Japanese, the Chinese, or the French civil Engineering, and the Mines departments. service. It would not do to have foreigners A number of persons have to be employed, walking into our civil service. A person in whom a knowledge of chemistry, engi­ might come here and get into our civil neering, and other branches of science is service and obtain plans of the fortifications absolutely necessary, and if a man of the and an insight into all our reserves, stores, highest attainments, who is most eligible, ammunition, and everything else, and at has come from a foreign country, why the end.of two years perhaps to go back to should he be shut out from the public some foreign country and give the govern­ service~ ment there full particulars of everything The Ron. C. G. HEYDON: This provi­ we are doing. Supposing he got into the sion also applies to persons from the United Survey Department, he would be able to States of America 1 give them a plan of all our roads. The Ron. R. E. O'CONNOR: Yes, not The Ron. C. G. HEYDON: He could go only to persons from the continent of into our Survey Office and buy a plan ! Europe, but also to persons from the United The Ron. R. E. O'CoNNOR : ·wm the States of America. Supposing we wanted Attorney-General say that that is really to deal with a very important matter in the reason for this provision~ connection with diseases in stock, it might The Ron. J. H. WANT : I do not say be necessary to engage some man who had that it is the reason. I am not fishing for actually worked under Pasteur or in one reasons. I am pointing out that every of his establishments, but he could not be foreign country has a protection against appointed. We throw open our shores to strangers coming into its service. All we every man who is willing to come and say to foreigners is, " Stop here long enou~h throw in his lot amongst us, except he to show you have got some interest in the Public Service Bill. [2Q Nov., 1895.] Public Service Bill. 2757 country and take sufficient interest in it for bon. members suppose that any govern­ you to become a recognised British subject." ment would refuse to allow the appoint­ We will not allow foreigners to vote for a ment of a foreigner unless there were some member of Parliament, and why should we good reason for doing so 1 Try to get into say that they shall be entitled to come into the Japanese Government service and you the civil service 7 If the hon. and learned will do so with your head off. mem her thinks that the clause goes too far, The Hon. R. E. O'CoNNOR: The hon. I am willing to insert the words· "except and learned member does not set that coun­ with the consent of the Governor and the try up as a model 1 Executive Council" so as to have some The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : The United check on these appointments. If the board States is, I think, a better model than say "this is a case in which we think no Japan! harm can be done," and inquiry is made The Hon. J. H. WANT : They will not it may be said, " very well let this man allow you there. come in." The Vice-President of the Ex­ The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : Yes, they ecutive Council has suggested to me that will. You can vote in many states with­ some of M. Pasteur's people might come out being naturalised! here, and we might wish to put them into The Hon. J. H. WANT : I am not an important position in the public ser­ talking about voting. vice in connection with researches into the The Hon. C. G. HEYDON: If you can vote, rabbit pest, and it might be' desirable that a fortiori you can enter the civil service! the Government should be able to say, The Hon. J. H. WANT : That does not " very well, we will allow those people to follow at all. I know you cannot get into be appointed." That is not giving the the civil service there. Government very much patronage, and it The Ron. J. M. CREED : I suppose would be a check on the unwholesome and this clause will not apply to any gentle­ unnecessary appointment of foreigners to men at present in the civil service who are positions in the public service. not naturalised 1 The Ron. R. E. O'CoNNOR : Why should The Hon. J. H. WANT: No; the clause you not appoint foreigners to the public says, "admitted to " ! service if you think they are suitable men 1 The Hon. J. M. CREED : I certainly The Hon. J. H. WANT : I think we think there should be power to admit should know something of them before · foreigners. A case of absolute urgency for they are appointed, and not have people their admission might occur. from foreign countries pitchforked into the The Hon. G. H. COX: The Attorney~ public service without knowing what the General was unfortunate when he cited result may be. vVe should have a check, the case of Japan. Every one knows that but the Governor, with the advice of the the civil service of Japan is full of Executive Council, should be able to say foreigners. "this is a case which we have considered, The Ron. J. H. WANT : By express per­ and we think that no harm can be done, mission of the Mikado ! and under the circumstances we consent The Ron. G. H. COX : They make nse to the board making this appointment." of foreigners, and why should we not do Does the hon. and learned member think so 1 If we can secure the services of a that the Governor would refuse an appli­ highly-trained metallurgist from Germany, cation unless there were some good reason such as we have not in this country, should for doing so 1 Whatever faults the pre­ we not take advantage of them 7 Would sent Government may have, we may at it not be advisable to secure the services any rate suppose that at some future time of some of M. Pasteur's disciples, in order a government will be in power who might that they might teach us how to get rid of be trusted by hon. members to say "this stock diseases and other pests 1 The hon. is a case in which we think the board may and learned member very properly drew at­ dispense with this rule." Does anyone tention to the matter, showing how absurd suppose that,if such a case arose the Go­ it would be to shut out foreign scientific vernment would interfere with the func­ men whom we might desire to have here. tions or the civil service board 1 How The Ron. C. G. HEYDON: My bon. many cases are there likely to be 1 Do and learned friend, Mr. R. E. O'Connor, 2758 Public Service Bill. [COUNCIL.]. Public Service Bill. deserves our thanks for calling attention vernment for permission. I say that we to the clause. I listened with astonish­ should follow the good example set by the ment, knowing what the Attorney-General mother country and the and is, to the narrow-minded way in which he welcome any intelligent foreigners. They argued the matter. In this young country form a desirable basis of population, and in with its small population and undeveloped the course of a single generation they merge resources, there are any number of branches entirely into the ordinary population and of knowledge as to which it would be the become absolutely Australian in all their greatest advantage if we could get intelli­ feelings, instincts, and interests. · gent and educated foreign Bpecialists to The Hon. L. F. DE SALIS: I think that teach us and help us on. At a moment's in return for all the advantages held out notice one might mention half a dozen to the civil service we have a right to ex­ subjects in which we require knowledge pect something from them, and that some­ and assistance. There is the subject of thing should be that everyone should be­ forestry, which has been carried to very come a volunteer, and be ready to take great perfection, and which is studied to arms and fight for his country. We know a remarkably complete degree in Germany. that the Germans when they go abroad to That is very little understood here. In any country, whatever the position they regard to inventions we require help from obtain, they have to give up their situa­ abroad. Persons from the United States tions in case of necessity, and go and fight of America might come and assist us in re­ for the country. gard to introducing new inventions or estab­ The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : They would lishing a school for investigation. There not do it! are any number of matters connected with The Hon. L. F. DE SALIS: But they electricity and electric machinery, and min­ do it. ing machinery invented in the U nitecl The Hon. C. G. HEYDON : How could States, and we should be very glad if we they be taken away ~ could get skilled specialists to come to this The Hon. L. F. DE SALIS : The Ger­ country to give us information with regard mans have an amount of patriotism which to them. There is the matter of irrigation, I am sorry to say our people have not got. which has been brought to perfection in If we admitted them in the way suggested other parts of the world, but which is in by the Attorney-General it would be its infancy here, and there is olive culture, all right. But we ought not to admit to establish which we should probably have foreigners generally-it would be wrong to get out Frenchmen and Italians. "'Who to do so. would say that if we brought out a number The Hon. E. WEBB : It appears to me of people of that kind and settled them in that the speech of the hon. and learned the country it would not be of the greatest member, Mr. C. G. Heydon, would have been advantage to us~ Then there is the matter more appropriate if we had theN aturalisa­ of wine-making. We certainly have not as tion Act under consideration. If the hon. much skill and scientific knowledge in re­ and learned member wishes to admit all gard to that industry as is possessed in some foreigners, whether naturalised or not, the other parts of the world. The effect of best way will be to repeal the N aturalisa­ what is suggested by the Attorney-General tion Act. I think the best course is to would be that if highly-skilled men from accept the amendment suggested by the the United States or other parts of the Attorney-General. I do not like the amend­ civilised world, men whom we should all ment propost1d by the hon. and learned welcome here and be glad to see, and whom member, Mr. R. E. O'Connor. The admis­ we should feel were an addition to the in­ sion of foreigners into the public service tellectual strength of the country; if they should only be allowed under any circum­ came bringing their families with them and stances with the consent of the Governor showed a desire to settle in this country, and the Executive Council. No doubt there giving the very best earnest of it by send­ may be cases where the services of foreign ing their sons to these competitive exami­ scientific men may be required. But in nations for admission to the ci vi! service, those cases the consent of the Governor can they would have to go through the humilia­ be obtained. I think the bon. and learned ting preliminary of applying to the Go- member, Mr. C. G. Heydon, is mistaken [ The Hon. C. G. Heydon. Public Se1·vice BiU. [20 Nov., 1895.] Land & Income .Assessment. 2759 in his reference to the United States of and if we can trust them with other powers America. If he went there and attempted we can trust to their discretion to appoint to obta-in a position under the Govern­ only proper persons of this class. ment, he would find that he would have The Hon. J. H. WANT: The difficulty to become naturalised. The hon. and can be met by making the clause read : learned member will find that he is also No person shall be admitted to the public ser· in error in regard to the voting in the vice unless he shall have successfully passed the examination pres~ribed, nor unless he shall be United States. I hope that the amend­ a natural-born or a naturalised subject of her ment shadowed forth by the Attorney­ Majesty, except with the permission of the General will be accepted. Governor. · The Ron. Dr. lVIAcLA URIN : I con­ The Hon. R. E. O'CoNNOR : That "ex­ fess that I sympathise very much with the cept" will apply to the who1e clause ! provisions of the clause as it stands, be­ Amendment, b:y.leave, withdrawn, cause, after all, if her Majesty wants ser­ Amendment (the Hon. R. E. O'CoNNOR) vants she can get plenty amongst her own agreed to: subjects. It is a new doctrine to me that That after the word "prescribed," line 6, the we should admit into the service of the following words be inserted:-" Provided that, Crown all sorts of foreigners. If a man with the permission of the Governor, a person . not a natural-born or naturalised subject of her wishes to become a member of the com­ Majesty may be so admitted." munity, let him be naturalised; then he Clause, as amended, agreed to. will have the privileges of a natural-born The Ron. J. H. WANT : I understand subject. The cases in which it may be that a message has come up from the Legis­ desirable to employ foreigners who have lative Assembly, and I am quite sure that special qualifications would be so very few hon. members will be very pleased to have that they are not worth considering. I something to deal with that suits their taste wouJd never give the public service board -the Land and Income Assessment Bill. power to admit foreigners into the service, Under these circumstances I propose to and if the clause is to be amended, I trust adjourn the consideration of this bill until that it will be in the manner suggested by Tuesday next. the Attorney-General. Progress reported. The Ron. R. E. O'CONNOR: I intend to accept the proposal of the Attorney­ FIRST READINGS. General, not because I am satisfied with it, The following bills were received from but because I think it is all that I am likely the Legislative Assembly, and read the first to get. I can see by the views expressed time:- by hon. members that if I did not accept Municipalities Act of 1867 Amendment Bill. that amendment any amendment of the Legal Profession Amalgamation Bill . . clause would be defeated altogether. Per­ haps the compromise will put the matter LAND AND INCOME ASSESSMENT BILL. in a little better position than it is in The PRESIDENT reported the receipt of under the bill. I must protest against the the following message from the Legislative illiberality of the kind of attitude that Assembly. would adopt this proposal in any shape. Mr. President,-The Legislative Assembiy, We are willing that foreigners should having had under consideration the Legislative come and take up their lot with us, that Council's message, dated 20th November, 1895, they should settle on the land, that they in reference to the Land and Income Tax Assess­ ment Bill,- should pay taxes, and form a portion of the Insists upon its disagreements to the Council's community, but when we come to consider amendments in the bill. who are to be appointed members of the And the Assembly requests a free conference civil service we are to adopt a different with the Legislative Council on the subject of such disagreements ; and has appointed the fol­ rule. I say that it is utterly illiberal lowing of its members to be managers of such and unworthy·of a country like this to put conference in its behalf :-Mr. .Reid, Mr. up a lal.Jel over the door of the public ser­ Brunker, Mr. Carruthers, Mr. McMillan, Mr. vice, "No foreigners need apply." If it McGowen, Mr. Cameron, Mr. V. Parkes, Mr. W. H. B. Piddington, Mr. Ashton, and Mr. Black. is supposed that the commissioners would J. P. ABBOTT, make a wrong use of the power, surely they Legislative Assembly Chamber, Speaker. are entrusted with larger powers than this, Sydney, 20th November, 1895. 2760 Land and Income [COUNCIL.] Assessment Bill.

Motion (Hon. Dr. GARRAN) agreed to: about to point out the reason why the That this House agrees to the free conference House should accept the names which the requested by the Legislative Assembly in its Government have submitted. message dated 20th November, 1895, on the The Hon. W. H. PIGOTT : A ballot has subject of the Council's amendments disagreed to_ by the Assembly and insisted on by the been demanded ! Council in the Land and Income Tax Assess· The Ron. J. H. WANT : That will not ment Bill. debar me, I submit, with very great re­ The Hon. Dr. G ARRAN : I move : spect, sir, from addressing the House on That the said free conference be held in the the motion. back library at the hour of 7 ·45 p.m. to. morrow,' The PRESIDENT: The hon. member will and that the managers thereof on behalf of the be quite in order in addressing the House Council be -- on the motion. There is no doubt that It rests with the· Government to under­ the motion ought to have been 9-ealt with take the responsibility of naming the man­ before the ballot was demanded. agers, and I have taken the names of five The Ron. Dr. MAcLAURIN: Am I at of those who voted for the bill, and the liberty in that case to reply to theAttorney­ names of five of those who voted against General1 the bill. The PR•;smENT : Certainly. The Ron. Dr. Garran, the Ron. J. H. Want,. the Ron. Dr. Cullen, the Ron. E. Pulsford, the The Hon. J. H. WANT: I was about Ron. J. Hughes, the Ron. Dr. MacLaurin, the to point out that I thought every hon. Ron. R. E. O'Connor, the Hon. H. E. Kater, member might have accepted the names of the Hon. F. T. Humphery, und the Ron. C. G. bon. members without resorting to the Heydon. right which they will no doubt have by­ Question proposed. and-by, of asking for a bollot. The Hon. Dr. MAcLAURIN : In accord­ The Ron. A. BROWN: The Attorney­ ance with our standing orders, sir, I de­ General wants to tie our hands, and asks mand a ballot of the managers on behalf us to swim afterwards ! of the Council ! The Ron. J. H. WANT: I should like The Hon. J. H. WANT: I should have to tie something else belonging to the hon. thought that the proposition of the Go­ member whilst I am speaking. I thought vernment would have been acceptable to hon. members in a case of thiskind might everybody. show something of the spirit of fair play. The Hon. J. HoSKINS: Five ministers If hon. members will refer to" May," and at the conference ! to "Bourinot's Parliamentary Practice," The Hon. J. H. WANT : Suppose that they will find it laid down that it is not there are five ministers, surely it is a fair consistent with the principles of the con­ thing to pick out five of those gentlemen ference, to appoint managers whose opinions in this House who consistently and per­ do not coincide with the objects thereof. sistently opposed the Government measure The Ron. H. C. DANGAR : There is on these very questions which are being somethin()' else in ''May" besides that. referred to the conference 1 'I'he Att~rney-General will find it laid The Hon. R. E. O'CoNNOR : I rise to down that the custom is to appoint only order. I submit that it is the right of those who are in favour of the upholding any bon. member to demand a ballot, and of a particular course, so far-as the confer­ that when a ballot is demanded there can ence is concerned, which course,. in this be no discussion. There is no motion case, is the insisting upon our amendment. before the Chair, and, therefore, the hon. member is not in order. \Ve have no The Ron. J. H. WANT : The hon. and necessity to give our reasons for demand­ learned member is entirely wrong. I will ing a ballot. On the other hand, no hon. read what " :May" says : Each house appoints managers to represent it member has any right to discuss the pro­ at the conference, and, by "ancient rules," the priety of demanding a ballot. I submit number of the Commons named for a conference that there is no question before the House. is double that of the Lords. It is not, however, The Hon. J. H. WANT : I submit that usual according to la ~er llractice to specify the number of the managers for either house. The I am speaking to the motion of my hon. managers of the house which desires the conference colleague. I am not speaking of the ques­ are the members of the committee who draw up tion of the ballot at present, but I am the reasons, to whom others may be added. Land and Income (20 Nov., 1895.] Assessment Bill. 2761

As we have done. The Government have managers of the other House have been selected the five who drew up the reasons chosen by ballot ! and have added five others. The Hon. J. HosKiNs: And there are And the managers of the other house are five ministers upon it! selected from the members who have taken an The Hon. J. H. WANT : I believe they active part regarding the bill, if present; or have. other members may be named, who happen to be in their places. Bnt it is not consistent with the The Hon. R. E. O'CONNOR: Why should principles of a conference to appoint managers not we follow the same course 1 whose opinions do not coincide with the objects The Hon. J. H. WANT : Never mind thereof. what the other House has done. "May" The Hon. W. H. PIGOTT : What are the says it is not consistent with the principles objects in this case 1 of a conference to appoint managers whose The Hon. J, H. \VANT : To endeavour opinions do not coincide with the objects to bring about an agreement with the other thereof. The bill has passed the House. House, and to come to a friendly com- · Therefore it cannot be .the object of the promise, if possible, with regard to the conference to destroy it, and if anyone differences which exists between them. goes to the conference who has honestly The Government have placed on the list· acknowledged that he cannot be a ·party to of names five gentlemen who were in the bill passing at all, he ought not, I hold, direct opposition to the proposals which to go to it. I think we should 8how to were. originally in the bill-five gentlemen everyone, not only to the other Chamber, who persistently and consistimtly moved, hut to the outside world, that the House . obta\ned,. an.d supported these amendments desires to go to the conference free and and alterations. On the other hand, the unfettered, and with the object, if possible, Government have selected five members of bringing about a compromise between who have only supported the measure in the two houses, which will have the effect some of these amendments. For instance, of doing what this House has acknow­ I will take the hon. and learned member, ledged it wishes to do-bringing into ex­ Dr. Cullen, and .. the hon. member, Mr. J. istence a bill imposing a tax on land values, Hughes, both of whom voted against the and that the object of it is to make that motion with regard to the question of · bill as perfect as possible and not to destroy mortgages, which we now a.sk shall be left it, as every man would who voted against in the bill, Therefore, we have been more the third reading if he were conscientious than generous in making this suggestion. and honest at the conference. Under those Could anything be more fair than that the circumstances, I submit the House ought Council should be represented by five of to accept the names submitted by the Go-· those who opposed the measure1 I think vernment. No one can complain that we may, with "May" before us, have gone they have not been selected in a spirit· of -to the extent of saying· that those who fair play. Hon. members know there is a have tried to destroy the bill should not solid phalanx against the Government-it go to the conference at all; but we have is not the old 41 to 4, but it is nearly as suggested that those who were in opposi- strong, and therefore they know that if tion should go to the conference. Some they call for a ballot they have the Govern­ bon. member may suggest a ballot. ment completely at their met:cy, and they The Hon. A. BROWN: We have de- may, if they like, place on the conference ·manded a ballot ! as managers ten persons who voted against The Hon. J. H. WANT : If that is the the second and third readings of the hill, ·case, the result of a ballot may be the elec- and who honestly and conscientiously press tion of someone to the conference who may upon the Government alterations, amend­ actually have voted against the third read- mcnts, and additions to the bill, which they ing of the bill-that is, the destruction of know, if they are still retained in it, means the bill altogether. Under these circum- the death of it. Therefore I say if they were stances, the House would send to the to do anything of that kind, they would not .conference a manager who, according to be going to the conference in a spirit of fair "May," ought not to be there. play, and would not be doing what is in The Hon. R. E. O'CoNNOR : I suppose accordance with the custom which prevails the Attorney-General knows that the in the English houses of Parliament. 2762 Land and Income Assessment. [COUNCIL.] Assent to Bills.

The Ron. Dr. MAcLAURIN : I shall The Ron. J. H. WANT : I should like not follow the Attorney-General in his to make an explanation in regard to my argument, because it is now late, and I do asking the House to give Friday as an not desire to waste the time of the House. extra sitting-day. Some bon. members I shall only say one thing, and that is seemed to be under the impression that the this: That I think he was quite unjusti­ Government wished to proceed with busi­ fied in imputing to any hon. member a ness on Friday. That is not the case. We desire to kill the bill. That is an imputa­ only ask for Friday as an extra sitting day tion which is improper. However I shall­ because, in the event of the conference not not take up the time of the House, but having finished its labours, this House shall simply demand that the managei's be would have to sit to enable the confer­ elected by ballot. ence to continue its sitting on Friday ; The PRESIDENT : It will be necessary to therefore, all I ask hon. members to do is dispose of the motion proposed by the Vice­ to form a quorum, so as to enable the President of the Executive Council before conference to continue its sitting. I pledge a ballot can be called for. the Government, of course, not to go on The Hon. H. C. DANGAR : I submit with any business, but simply to keep the that if the motion is disposed of, the man" House together to enable the conference agers of the conference are virtually ap­ to go on ; therefore, if any hon. members pointed under it. wish to leave for the country on Friday in The Hon. Dr. MacLAURIN : It ap­ order to fulfil particular engagements there pears to be the proper course to divide the will be no necessity for them to come here, motion into two parts. but only for a sufficient number of other The PRESIDENT : The question is that hon. members to be here to keep a House. the said free conference be held in the back House adjourned at 11·16 p.m. library, at the hour of 7 ·45 p.m., to-morrow. Question resolved in the affirmative. The Ron. Dr. MAcLAURIN: I demand a ballot. 3Ltgislatii.Te ~ssemblt!. [The Hou8e proceeded to ballot.] The PRESIDENT: I have to announce Wednesday, 20 November, 1895. the following as the result of the ballot :­ The Ron. R. E. O'Connor, the Hori. C. G. Assent to Bills-Coal-mines Act of 187(J..c.Mr. H. C. L. Heydon, the Hon. Dr. MacLaurin, the Anderson-Charges against Inspecting Forester Man­ ton-The late Forester Guilfoyle-Bore at Bulyeroi­ Ron. F. T. Humphery, the Ron. H. E. Export of Fruit to New Zealand-Sale of Crown Lands Kater, the Hon. G. H. Cox, the Ron. W. Application Forms-" Historical Records of New South H. Pigott, the Ron. A. Brown, the Ron. Wales"-Crane Contractor at Bullock Island-Sale of Cheap and Inferior Teas-Customs Official Managing W. J. Trickett, the Ron. H. C. Dangar. Theatre-Daily Commercial News-The Gore, Arta· The Hon. Dr. G ARRAN: I beg to move: mon, and Nichols Estate-Penny Postage-Telephone That the following message be forwarded to Commnnication: Chatswood and North Sydney­ the Legislative Assembly :- Construction of Platform: Milson's Point Line-Lan(l Mr. Speaker,-The Legislative Council agrees for Conditional Purchase and Homestead Selection­ to the free conference requested by the Legislative Post and Telegraph Office: Petersham-Reception of Assembly in its message, dated 20th November, the Governor-Firing of Military Salutes-Road be­ 1895, on the subject of the Council's amendments tween Coo boo! Island and Swan Hill-Ventilation of Coal-mines-Dismissal of Constable Easterbrook­ disagreed to by the Assembly, and insisted on Third Readings-City of North Sydney Railway Bill­ by the Council, in the Land and Income Tax Special Adjournment-Land and Income Assessment Assessment Bill, and appoints that the same Bill-Conditional Purchasers Relief Bill (second read­ be held in the back library at the hour of a ing)-Lost Policies Bill-Order of Business-Land and quarter before 8 o'clock to-morrow evening, and Income Assessment Bill-Adjournment. that the Hon. R. E. O'Connor, the Hon. C. G. Heydon, the Hon. H. N. MacLaurin, the Hon, F. T. Humphery, the Hon. H. E. Kater, the Hon. G. H. Cox, the Hon. IV. H. Pigott, the Mr. SPEAKER took the chair. Hon. A. Brown, the Hon. W. J. Trickett, the Hon. H. C. Dangar, be the managers thereof on ASSENT TO BILLS. its behalf. Royal assent to the following bills re- Legislative Council Chamber, ported:- · Sydney, 20th November, 1895. Bega Cattle Sale-yards Bill. Question resolved in the affirmative. Newcastle Pasturage Acts Amendment Bill.