5836 [ASSEMBLY.]

DEATH DUTY BILL They have been calculated to yield the Second Reading average level of revenue which is cur- rently received from assets in estates of THE HON. 3. DOLAN (South-East this nature under the existing law. Metropolitan-Leader of the House) [12.08 am.]: I move- Again, circulated with this Bill Is a small booklet explaining its provisions in detail. That the Bill be now read a second I commend the Bill to the House. time. This is a Bill to enact a new Death Duty Debate adjourned, on motion by The Act. It is complementary to the current Hon. 1. G. Medcalf. Death Duty Assessment Bill. When introducing that measure, I ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE pointed out that it was also proposed to THE BON. 3. DOLAN (South-East repeal the existing Death Duties (Taxing) Metropolitan-Leader of the House) Act and to replace it with a new legislative [12.12 a.m.]: I move- provision. The reason for doing this is That the Howse do now adjourn. that amendments over the years to the current taxing Act have made it extremely I would remind members that the Premier difficult to follow and interpret. It is announced today that It is hoped the always desirable when opportunity presents Parliament will rise on Friday of next to produce an Act which is simple and easy week. The other House will sit on Thurs- to follow. Of course, the current Act will day night of next week, and will continue to apply in cases which require also sit on the Friday. Consequently, it the imposition of duty under its provisions. is obvious that we must do the same. I give The measure now before the House notice to members now-and I will do so provides for the legislation to come into again tomorrow-that we will sit after tea operation on the same day as does the on Thursday of next week, and we will death also sit on the Friday. I have consulted duty assessment legislation. The the Leader of the Opposition and the obvious reason for this is that the two must Leader of the Country Party in respect of operate together. Currently it is planned this, that subject to the approval of the Bills and they have both agreed to this by Parliament, these proposed Acts will be action. brought into operation on and from the Question put and Passed. 1st January, 1974. House adjourned at 12.13 am. (Thursday) In brief, the Bill consists of four tables. These tables set out the rates of duty to be applied to different classes of benefici- aries. Table 1 deals with the closely related Iurgiflaftni Puwrnblq beneficiaries; namely, widows, widowers* children, grandchildren, other issue, and Wednesday, the 5th December, 1973 dependent parents. Under this table the lowest rate of duty is to be imposed. Table 2 deals with the next group of The SPEAKER (Mr. Norton) took the relatives. These are brothers, sisters, and Chair at 2.15 p.m., and read prayers. parents of a deceased person who are not dependent parents. The rates of duty in LOAN BILL this table are to be lower than those Introduction and First Reading which follow but are to be a little higher than the duties to be imposed under table Bill introduced, on motion by Mr. J. T. 1. Also, where table 1 is not to commence Tonkin (Treasurer), and read a first time. until the assets exceed $15,000 in net value, table 2 is to commence at $1,500 net Second Reading value. MR. J. T. TONKIN (Melville-fleas- Table 3 is to apply to persons who are urer) [2.20 p.m.]: I move- strangers in blood and to corporate or un- That the Bill be now read a second incorporated bodies. Again, in this table time. the rates are to be higher than those in A measure of this kind is introduced each the two preceding tables. year to authorise the raising of loans to All of these tables are to contain the provide finance for certain works and same rates as currently apply in the Death services detailed in the Estimates of expen- Duties (Taxing) Act. diture from the General Loan Fund. Table 4 is a new table which is to be As I have already outlined the capital applied to the estates of persons who are works programme for the current year not domiciled in this State at the time when speaking to the Appropriation Bill of their death but hold assets in this (General Loan Fund) I propose to confine State. Members will notice that the rates my remarks to certain aspects of loan of duty here are to be considerably higher. raisings. [Wednesday, 5 December, 19731 536837

The public borrowings of the Australian Western Australia's share of the borrow- and State Governments are co-ordinated ing programme Is $54,600,000 and 'we will by the Australian Loan Council which is receive an amount of $25,800,000 as an in- constituted under the 1927 Financial terest-free capital grant of which the sum Agreement between the Commonwealth of $6,900,000 is being held In reserve to and States. cover the estimated deficit for 1973-74 in the Consolidated Revenue Fund. Details The Loan Council determines the annual of the allocation of the balance of governmental borrowing programmes to- $18,900,000 are shown on pages 46 to 51 gether with the terms and conditions under of the Loan Estimates. which the loans are to be raised. The borrowing programme for semi- Subject to the decisions of the Loan governmental and local authorities raising Council, the Australian Government amounts in excess of $400,000 was fixed at arranges new borrowings, conversions, re- $641,910,000, of which Western Australia newals, and redemptions of existing loans. was allocated $33,200,000. Details of the Under what is known as the "Gentle- allocation of this borrowing authority are men's Agreement", originally entered into set out on page 52 of the Loan Estimates In 1936, the Loan Council also determines and proposed borrowings by State authori- the aggregate annual borrowing pro- ties raising up to $400,000 in 19 73-74 are gramme for semni-governmental and local set out on page 53. authorities raising more than $400,000 in Authority Is being sdught by the Bill now a financial year. Individual loans raised under consideration to raise loans amount- by each of the authorities in this sector arc ing to $66,100,000 for the purposes listed subject to Loan council approval. In the first schedule to the Bill. I should Point out that the new authority does not At present the Loan Council places no necessarily coincide with the estimated ex- overall limit on the borrowing grammes of authorities raising $400,008pro- or penditure for that particular item during less in a financial year. the current year. Unused balances of previous authorisa- For the financial year 1972-73, the Loan tions have been taken into account and in Council approved a borrowing programme the case of works of a continuing nature of $133,500,000 for State works and hous- sufficient new borrowing authority has ing Projects which was financed from- been provided to permit works to be car- ried on for a period of approximately six Cash loans In Australia 564,700,000 months after the close of the financial year. Special bonds in Australia .. 14,200,000 This Is the usual practice and it ensures State domestic raisings. .. 68,400,000 that there Is continuity in the progress of Australian Government's sub- works, pending the passing of next year's scription to a special loan-. 86.200.000 Loan Bill. In addition, the Australian ag)Yernment Details of the condition of the various provided the States with an -interest-free loan authorities are set oat on pages 46 capital grant of $248,500,000 m,hich was to 51 of the Loan Estimates. These pages financed from- also detail the appropriation of loan repay- A ments received in 1972-73. Cash loans in Australia I 184.700.000 Provision for the payment of interest Special bonds in Australia .. 4,400),000 and sinking fund is another important authorisation in the Bill. It charges these overseas loans 27,900,000 payments to the Consolidated Revenue

- - Fund and no further appropriation Is re- Treasury notes 26,700,000 quired. from Parliament. Australian Government's sub- 4,800,000 Authority Is also sought to reappropri- scription to a special loan . ate certain authorisations which are no At the June, 1973, meeting ccfthe Loan longer required. The second schedule sets Council, the total States' works programme out the amounts to be reappropriated and for 1913-74 was fixed at $588,~roo,ooo. In the third schedule lists the items to which addition, the AustralianC 3overnment they are to be applied. I commend the agreed to provide $278,300,000 by way of Bill to members. intierest-free capital rants. Debate adjourned, on motion by Sir The reduced programme for 1973-74 Charles Court (Leader of the Opposition). reflects the changed arrangeme nts for ad- vances for welfare housing an di financing Message: Appropriations tertiary education which I expi,ained when Message from the Lieutenant-Governor speaking to the Appropriation Bill (Gen- received and read recommending appropri- eral Loan Fund). ations for the Purposes of the Bill. 5838 [ASSEMBLY.]

QUESTIONS (21): ON NOTICE suggested that the Member could 1. obtain details of the proposals, a STATE HOUSING copy of the plans and a timetable COMMISSION from the local authority. Offices: Tenders for Air-conditioning Mr. O'NEIL, to the Minister for Hous- 3. L.AND ing: South Coast: Reservation and Referring to the answer given to Dlevelo'pment question 3 on notice Thursday, Mr. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for 29th November, 1973- Lands: (1) Is it a fact that Modern Air Referring to his answer to ques- Pty. Ltd.. the company whose tion 27, part (1) on Thursday, tender was under question, concerning has been awarded the con- 29th November, 1973 tract to provide air-condition- land development and reservation ing for the new State Hous- on the south coast- ing Commission building? (a) how long has the committee (2) Who was the intending ten- been considering the report; derer referred to in part (2) (b) is It intended to take evi- of the answer in deference to dence from other members of whom the closing of tenders the Forests Department in a was extended by one week? private capacity; (3) Who is the commission's con- (c) when is a recommendation sultant engineer for the new expected? State Housing Commission building? Mr. Davies (for Mr. H. D. EVANS) Mr. BICKERTON replied: replied: (1) The commission, having accepted (a) The report was referred to the the tender of Modem Air Pty. Surveyor-General (a member Ltd. as the nominated subcontrac- of the committee) on 24th tor for air conditioning, requested, July, 1973. on the 22nd November, 1973, the (b) Further action is dependent principal contractor to so arrange. on the committee's recom- The Principal contractor for- mendation. warded documents and work order to Modern Air Pty. Ltd. on 26th (c) Early in the New Year. November, 1973. These ,papers have not as Yet been returned to 4. NATIONAL PARKS the principal contractor. Closure of Roads and Tracks (2) Mitchell Cotts & Co. (W.A.) Pty. Mr. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for Ltd. Lands:. (3) Wood & Grieve, consulting civil, Further to my question 28 on structural, mechanical and elec- Thursday, 29th November, 1973, trical engineers, of 44 Ventror will he name the roads and tracks Avenue, West Perth. closed by the National Parks Board and explain how closures 2. NORTH LAKE ROAD are Policed? Widening and Realignment Mr. Davies (for Mr. H. D. EVANS) Mr. O'NEIL, to the Minister for Works: replied: No named or main roads have been (1) What are the current proposals closed. relative to the widening and up- grading and realignment of North Closures have been confined to Lake Road between Leach High- side-tracks and deviations within way and Ellis Road? park boundaries and are policed (2) Would he table plans of any of by park rangers. the above proposals? (3) Will he provide a timetable in 5. MUJA POWER STATION respect of works associated with Tenders for Plant these proposals? Mr. A. A. LEWIS, to the Minister for Mr. T. D. Evans (for Mr. JAMIESON) Electricity: replied: Further to my question 25 on (1) to (3) North Lake Road Is the Thursday. 29th November. 1973 responsibility of the City of Mel- concerning tenders for Muja power ville, which council, I understand, station plant, what Is the deliv- is planning works on the road ery date specified in part (6) of south of Leach Highway. It is the question? [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 583983

Mr. Taylor (for Mr. MAY) replied: 407 Sydenham St., Belmont- The specified "iin service" date for $112.07 per month. the first unit is 30th September, Suite 7, Morley Court, Bishop St., 1979. Morley-$108.33 per month. Old Commercial Bank Building, 6. FIRE BRIGADES BOARD Boyup Brook-$39.00 per month. Recommendations: Uniform Building Dumas Building, Albany Highway By-laws -$35.00 Per month. Mr. HUTCHINSON, to the Minister 1st Floor, Boomerang House, 219 representing the Chief Secretary: Main St., Osborne Park-$86.66 (1) As a result of the tabling of the per month. report of the Fire Brigades Board 51 Mann St., Mundaring-$86.66 on the proposed uniform building per month. by-laws and the listing In the report of what are considered to 1st floor, Town Hall Building, Fre- be omissions which allegedly pre- inantle-$48.58 per month. judice the prevention of fire and Lowood Road, Mount Barker- * the safeguarding of life and pro- perty, will the Minister consult $56.33 per month. with the Minister for Local Part suite 3, Maritana Mall, Mari- * Government at the first opportun- tana St,, Kalgooriie-$ 130.00 per * ity and have full reconsideration month. given to the merits of the board's suggestions? (3) All tenancies are on a monthly basis. (2) If not, will he explain- (4) and (5) The scheme has not de- (a) his inability to get on with veloped to the stage when accurate or understand the Minister informnation can. be given as to the for Local Government; various costs Involved. However, (b) why he will not have the inquiries akre continuing, and the necessary re-examination of Member will be further advised as the proposals? soon as possible. Mr. HARMAN replied: 8. CHALLIS ROAD SCHOOL (1) Yes. Site (2) The Chief Secretary gets on very well with the Minister for Local Mr. RUSHTON, to the Minister repre- Government. senting the Minister for Education: (1) Has the site for the new Challis 7. MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT Road school now been secured? Offices and Staff (2) If "Yes" to (1), will he please Mr. W. A. MANNING, to the Premier: identify the site? (1) How many Members have applied (3) If "No" to (1), when Is the site for an office in their electorate? to be selected and purchased? (2) What rental agreements have been entered into-giving weekly ren- Mr. T. D. EVANS replied: tal and address of premises? (1) Yes. (3) Do all agreements expire on the (2) Lots 13 and 14, Williams Road. next election day? (4) What is the cost of furniture. (3) Not akpplicable. furnishings, renovations, telephone Installation and any other pay- 9. HMhLMAN SCHOOL ments in each instance? Site (5) Assuming that the cost of offices already established is an average. Mr. RUSHTON, to the Minister repre- what would be the total initial senting the Minister for Education: cost and annual cost for an office (1) What Is holding up the purchase in 51 electorates? of the Hillman primary school site? Mr. J. T. TONKIN replied: (2) When Is It expected the site will (1) 24. be secured? (2) 10 rental agreements have been Mr. T. D. EVANS replied: entered into, as follows-- (1) Negotiations on the cost of the 1st floor. Swan Building Society, 43 Great Northern Highway, site are still proceeding. Mldland-$5625 Per month. (2) During 1974. 5840 (ASSEMBLY.] 10. SCHOOLS Mr. TI. D. EVANS replied: New Structures (1) Lease holders at time of transfer Mr. RUSHTON, to the Minister repre- from the Commonwealth Govern- senting the Minister for Education: ment were:- (1) Which new primary schools are (a) National Fitness Council of being built this financial year and W.A. (main lease holder); are to be ready for students- (b,) RESL. Perth; (a) in February 1974; (c) R.S.L. Rockingham; (b) later in the financial year? (2) What are the number of students (d) Department of Aviation, In- expected to attend each of these terior and Works. schools In- All were holders of Commonwealth (a) February 1974; leases. (b) February 1975? Sub-lessees were as listed in Mr. T. D. EVANS replied: answer of question 23, part (3) of (1) (a) Craigle, 29th November, 1973. Davallia, (2) Under the terms of the leases the Mon tro se, holder of each cottage must have Southwell, a minimum of three other fami- Warwick, lies apart from themselves using Cascade. the cottages in any one year. All (b) East Maddington, groups abide by this. Examples West Armadale. of usage from four organisations (2) (a) Craigie-'180, holding leases are- Davallia-200, Lands and Surveys--220 families. Montrose-400, Swan Brewery Social Club-200 Southwell-200, families. Warwick-340, Cascade-li, Waterside Workers Federation- East Maddington-214, 370 families. West Armadale-ass. Police Union-146 families. (b) It is not possible to accurately forecast enrolments in these (3) Not known. developing areas until further (4) 1 am prepared to assist In any information on housing growth way Possible within the scope ol comes to hand during 1974. the Youth, Community Recrea- tion and National Fitness Act 1972 P1ONT' PERON RESERVE on any other site apart from Point Lessees and Oceanarium Peron. Mr. RUSHTON, to the Minister for (5) No. All have 21-year leases explr. Recreation: Ing in November, 1993. (1) Referring to my question 23 on 29th November, will he now advise 12. STATE HOUSING the names of the lessees hold- COMMISSION ing leases on Point Peron reserve at the time of the transfer from Offices: Tenders for Air-conditioning the Commonwealth Government? Mr. O'NEIL, to the Minister foi (2) How many individual families en- Housing: joyed the economical holidays In Referring to the contract for air. the social clubs' holiday homes on conditioning the new State Hous. Point Peron for the financial year Ing Commission building- 30th June, 1913? (1) Is it a fact that on the dal (3) Has the Marineland of Australia that tenders were to close to: now withdrawn Its proposal to this contract a representativ( erect an oceanarium at Point of Modern Air Pty. Ltd. toot Peron? his firm's tender to a placi (4) If "No' to (3). what assistance is other than 197 St. George' he giving the Shire of Rockingham Terrace for the Purpose ol in obtaining this tourist attrac- lodging that tender? tion? (2) If so, to what Place did thi (5) is it still intended to eventually representative report? resite the social club holiday homes now occupying Point Peron (3) At what time did the repre reserve, either north of Perth or sentative report to the placi south of Mandurab? mentioned In (2)? [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 584184

Mr. BICKERTON replied: Mr. BICKERTON replied, (1) Yes. (1) (a) No. It was two minutes late. (2) The public counter, State Housing (b) Yes, but the officers received Commission Architectural Dlvi- the tender from the com- sion office, Fifth Floor, 190 Hay pany's representative to en- Street, East Perth. sure its late lodgment would be identified and. recorded. (3) Inquiry of officers established that (c) and (d) The officers opening the representative arrived at the the tender box on the day in above address about five minutes question are unable to pre- past 12 noon on Monday, 24th cisely recall that the locks September, 1973. were difficult to open but can recall there have been occa- 13. STATE HOUSING sions when key "Jiggling" had COMMISSION to be resorted to so the dooi Offices: Tenders for Air-conditioning would open. Mr. O'NEIL, to the Minister for Hous- (2) The circumstances surrounding; Ing: the lodgments are not comparable Referring to the answer to ques- and the commissioners exercised lion 3 part (6) on notice 29th their decision responsibilities ac- November, 1973, and since I have cording to the circumstances of been advised that a number of the tender lodgments as known by persons present at the opening official irnquiry. of tenders have stated that Mod- emn Air's tender for air-condition- 15. TEACHERS ing the new State H-ousing Com- mission building was admitted Voluntarp Overseas Training and opened after the other ten- Mr. MENSAROS, to the Minister re- ders had been made public, will Presenting he check the accuracy of his ad- the Minister for Education: vice? (1) Is it considered that voluntary overseas training during leave of Mr. BICKERTON replied:- absence without pay by full-time The answer given on 29th Novemn- teachers, especially if it is within ber, 1973, to question 3 (6) is re- their main chosen subject, has affirmed as being correct. benefit not only for the teachers but also for the department? (2) If so, arc there any grants for 14. STATE HOUSING subsidy of travel, tuition fee and COMMISSION living costs? Offices: Consolidated Constructions' (3) If (2) is "Yes" what are the con- Tender ditions for such grants? Mr. O'NEIL, to the Minister for Hous- Mr. T. D. EVANS replied:, Ing: (1) Yes. (1) Is it a fact that 'when tenders (2) The Education Department does closed for the construction of the not Provide subsidies but it has new State Housing Commission established travel and study fel- building- iowships which are open to com- (a) a tender from Consolidated petition by all teachers. Constructions of Wellington (3) Answered by (2). was not accepted because it was one minute late; is. MOTOR BOATS (b,) the tenderer was not even Registrations permitted to place his tender In the tender box; Mr. MENSAROS, to the Minister for Works: (c) at the time of the attempt to lodge the tender the tender (1) How many motor boats are at box was still locked: and present registered? (2) Can (d) because of a defective lock he show the total number for the box could not be opened each of the various categories so for about ten minutes? registered? Mr. T. D. Evans (for Mr. JAMIESON) (2) If, as I am advised, the above replied: statements are correct, why was not Consolidated Constructions', (1) 28,651. tender admitted on the same terns (2) Details as to categories not kept as those relating to the tender for by the Harbour and Light De- provision of air-conditioning? partment. 5842 5842[ASSEMBLY.)

17. JETTIES it would include substantial gua. Registrations and Numbers rantees of a seasonal nature whiel are retired annually. Mr. MENSAROS, to the Minister for Details of contingent liabilities a4 Works: at 30th June, 1973, are set out ii (1) How many private jetties are at Pages 86-87 of the Auditor-Lien. present registered- eral's Report. (a) in the Swan and Canning River estuary and contribut- 19. WATER SUPPLIES ory rivers; Maddmngton: Bursting Mains (b) In the Peel Inlet, Harvey Mr. BATEMAN, to the Minister I ci Estuary, Murray and Serpen- Water Supplies: tine rivers; As the water mains are contlnu. (c) onr the Lesohenault Estuar ally bursting in the Kelvin anc and contributory rivers? Bickley Roads area of Madding. ton, can he advise what Is intendec (2) What Is the number of public jet- by his department to correct tht! ties at the places under (1) (a), problem? (in and (c) ? Mr. T. 1). Evans (for Mr. JAMIESOW Mr. T. D. Evans (for Mr. JAMIESON) replied: replied; Leaks In the Bickley Road min! (1) (a) Private structures--106. are brought about by fiuctuatinj pressures due to pumping to Vic. (b) Private structures-906. toria reservoir. Work will com- (c) No survey has yet been done menee on the laying of a nev in the Lesehenault Estuary 21 in. suction main late in th( and contributory rivers to de- 1973-74 financial year. This war) termine the actual number of should alleviate the problems. structures. (2) (a) Public struetures-44. 20. ETHIOPIAN FAMINE RELIEF Funds for Doctors (b) Public structures-14. Mr. O'CONNOR, to the Premier: (C) Answered by 1 (c). Does be know bow much of thf funds raised for the Ethiopiarl 18. STATE FINANCES relief is going to assist Westerrs Loan Guarantees Australian doctors already work- Ing in Ethiopia? Mr. MENSAROS, to the Premier:. Mr. J. T. TONKIN replied: (1) What is the total amount of loan guarantees given by the Govern- No. Neither of the funds Is under ment during its term of office- the control of the Government. (a) under the Industry (Advances) 21. GOATS Act; Pastoral Leases (b) under special Acts; Mr. COYNE, to the Minister for Agri- (c) under other authority? culture: (2) What is the total liability of the (1) Adverting to my question on notice Government at present on account of 29th November referring to the of these guarantees as Itemnised In goat eradication programme and (1) ? his replies thereto, would It not appear that there are now less Mr. J. T. TONKIN replied: than 60,000 goats left in the areas (1) and (2) Details of guarantees ap- referred to? proved by my Government under (2) If not, could he Inform the House the Industry (Advances) Act have what the estimated numbers are been given In answer to previous now? questions. I refer the Member to (3) As the total numbers taken out of question 23 on 24th November, the five main shires of Yalgoo, 1911: question 6 on 11th May, Meelcatharra, Mt. Magnet, Upper 1972; question 1 on 31st May, 1972; Gascoyne and Leonora, amounted and question 23 on 15th August, to less than 55.000 over the period 1973. referred to, where did the other Other guarantees include a total 200,000 come from? of $8,668,000 under the Housing Mr. Davies (for Mr. H-. D3. EVANS) Loan Guarantee Act and $4,332,000 replied: under the Hospitals Act. (1) and (2) The effects of breeding It should be apparenit that the and migration must be taken into total amount of guarantees is a consideration when a current pop- meaningless figure, particularly as ulation assessment is being made. [Wednesday. 5 December, 1973) 584384

A further survey of pastoralists Labor Party has accepted, as policy, the would be necessary before present introduction of such legislation. Does it numbers could be estimated. hope to win votes by a move such as this? (3) The goat destruction Programme Mr. Moller: Would this be the only way covers the shires of- we are looking for votes? Northampton, Dr. DADOtIR: Whatever the reason the Morawa, Labor Party has for Introducing this Bill Perenjori, it is up to each and every member of the Chapman Valley, House to make up his own mind on how Murchison. he will vote. In my opinion each member Mullewa, should go around his electorate to gain Carnarvon, some knowledge of what should be done Shark Bay, and what should not be done In regard Cue, to this subject, but to have voting on Wiluna, party lines on Sandstone, an issue of such vital in- Laverton, portance is something I cannot accept. The Menzies, only conclusion I can reach Is that there Exmnouth. must be a vested interest, Ashburton, We on this side of the H-ouse have East Pilbara and to make up our own minds, and believe West Pilbara, me it Is not easy for one to make up one's as well as the five shires far which own mind on this question. We find our- specific information was sought. selves confronted with legislation which many people will argue Is sound and is needed, because the existing law is defunct CRIMINAL CODE AMENDMENT BILL and it is only victimising males; fe- Second Readting males do not practice this act; there is no such thing as a lesbian; they do not Debate resumed from the 29th November. commit crimes; they are outside the law. Yet if this legislation is passed it will mean DR. DADOUR, (Sublaco) [2.42 p.m.): one further step towards male emnancipa- The legislation before us at the moment is tion. basically to "decriminalise" the homo- sexual. Under existing law the homno- Many people believe in women's lib, but sexual, whether he practises in private or I1think we should support men's lib. it Is in public, is open to prosecution. This, In said women are not regarded as. criminals itself, leaves a lot to be desired. because they do not commit homosexual acts: women live longer than men and Mr. Bickerton: I'il say it does! women are able to bear children. I think Dr. DADOUR: I have thought about this homosexuals represent about 10 per cent. subject a great deal and I have probably of the community and probably they are read more about it than most people but trying hard to ascertain whether they can I still feel I am faced with many problems bear children. So far their efforts have which I am unable to answer. I have done been without success! extensive reading on the subject. Cannot I keep asking myself: What should I the Attorney-General hear me? do in regard to this legislation? How Mr. T. D. Evans: The honourable mem- should I Vote on this subject which affects a number of people In our community? ber is a little hard to hear. Probably all those who are deemed to be Dr. DADOUTR: I have read extensively homosexuals are the real victims, and I about the subject and I have dealt with will speak about them shortly. It is only homosexuals a great deal in my practice in this area that I can make up my mind. as a medical Practitioner: yet still I find I cannot make up my mind to help the myself faced with a number of problems Individual who is completely homosexual, and I shall elicit these during the course as against the Individual who is bisexual. of my speech. "]Bisexual" is a terrible word, because a This is a Bill dealing with morality and bisexual Individual is a homosexual- I believe it is the duty of every member of heterosexual. In other words he is "any the House to make his own decision un- port in a storm". It is always difficult equivocally on what should be done about for him, and he Is the man who worries the legislation. me. That is why I find it extremely dlffi- cult to make a decision on the legislation. Mr. T. D. Evans: it Is also dealing with Whilst I am talking I am still trying to human beings. make a decision on the subject, because Dr. DADOUR: We are always dealing I consider it has great import. with human beings. We are always think- I think every member should be left to ing of the people and of each individual, vote on the measure as he thinks fit; he and this is the reason I am unable to come should be permitted to think about It and to any conclusion on certain parts of this reach his own conclusion. That is the measure. I cannot understand why the reason all members of the House are 5844 5844[ASSEMBLY.]

here; we are here for the good of the nlonacceptance, and the stigma attached to community. This is a. very complex sub- them because they are homosexuals. Some- ject. I am a general practitioner and times they have true psychosis. Homo- members may think that I see a great sexuality may be one of the symptoms of number of homosexuals, but to be honest psychosis. I do not. If members must know, homo- Mr. Hartrey; What is the psychosis? sexuals visit homosexual doctors. A num- ber of homosexuals are practising medical Dr. DADOUR: It is usually a schizo- practitioners and homosexuals usually phrenic or maniac depressive psychosis. attend these doctors, because there Is an As members are aware, homosexuality can affinity between them. be a symptom of a mental disorder. The only time I see a homosexual is With reference to the vote to be cast on when he has something wrong with him this Bill by members of the Labor Party, I that he does not wish his family doctor suppose that one would have to be a cactus to know about. Hence I find myself Con- in Caucus to be safe these days. fronted with these people who do not wish This Bill deals basically with the to relate their troubles concerning their "decriminalisation" of the homosexual be- homosexual activities to their family doc- cause as the law stands at present it is an tors. On the rare occasion I have spoken off ence for a person to be a practising to a homosexual I have been educated. I homosexual, no matter how much decorum will outline to the House as I go along or otherwise he exercises. If someone their thought processes and the manner makes a complaint to the police, a charge in which they have educated me. Is made against the offender under the These people have educated rue and Criminal Code. I consider that basically affected my outlook on homosexuality. AS this situation is wrong and if two people I have said, it is not an easy subject to want to engage In homosexual acts they understand;, It Is very diffcult. Even after should be permitted to do so without any reading the Wolfenden report one still has ear of prosecution. I am referring to the qualms. Even after reading the Sexual established homosexuals and not to those Dilemmna by Paul Wilson one still has a who may become homosexuals. few qualms. Even after reading The Other This law Is needed so that homosexuals Love by H. Montgomery Hyde and Homo- can have. some protection to enable them sexual-oppression and liberation-by to participate in homosexual acts if they Dennis Altman, one is still left with many so desire without fear of being charged. qualms. However, I have a hang-up in connec- I do not know why this is so, but it is tion with this legislation because I am con- probably because basically most of us are cerned for the young people. I am wor- heterosexual and abhor the fact that homo- ried in case under the legislation young sexuality exists. it would probably sur- People during their adolescence will be led prise many of us to know that there are into homosexuality. I will deal with that more than likely two to five people in this aspect as I progress with my speech. House who are homosexuals. I base this statement on the law of averages. When I I have asked myself whether a homo- I would like to sexual is a homosexual from choice, but it look around the House, is a hard question to have the opportunity to pick those two to answer. Many homo- five. I used to think that the number was sexuals do not know they are homosexuals 5 per cent. of the total community, but, because the tendency is completely latent. in answer to a question, the Attorney- They do not have a clue that they are General indicated that 10 per cent. of the homosexuals, yet many people-homosexual community had homosexual tendencies. or heterosexual-could become homosexual Excluding yourself, Mr. Speaker, there are at any given time. 50 members of Parliament in the Legisla- This is my second problem: can the tive Assembly, so originally I thought homosexual help himself? Can he stop that, based on 5 per cent. of the comn- himself from indulging in homosexual mnunity, there would be 21 members in the acts? I ask myself: can the normal House who bad these tendencies. However, heterosexual stop himself from indulging I am told that the figure is more like in heterosexual acts? I think the com- 10 per cent, which means that probably pulsion. is about equal in each case. Con- five members in this House have homo- sequently I must believe that the homo- sexual tendencies. sexual cannot help himself any more than can the normal person. The heterosexual Mr. Hutchinson-. Do you think the num- Person can be strong for a while, but will ber will be indicated by the way members eventually weaken. It is said that even vote? the dark becomes fair after a while, and Dr. DADOUR: I hope not, because it we accept this. then might include me! It Is also said that homosexuals can I see homosexuals in my surgery usually recognise other homosexuals farily readily for one of two reasons -. ither because in much the same way as an alcoholic can they have venereal disease or because they recognise another alcoholic. They are able hava a neurosis as a result of persecution, to see something in the other person which% (Wednesday, 5 December, 19733 584584 irdicates to them that that other person is Dr. DADOUR: May I ask a question in a homosexual. Whether or not this is by return? How will the member for sane characteristic I do not know. Per- Boulder-Dundas vote? haps it is because of certain signs. Mr. Hartrey: I will vote for the Bill be- Let us consider what we, as hetero- f ore the House. sexuals, think of homosexuals. The Dr. DADOUR: That is all right. average Australian abhors them; some- times we even hate them. We despise Mr. Hartrey: But I was asking you a themr and the names we give them indicate question. our scorn. Homosexuals could take Dr. DADOUR: According to newspaper exception at any time to the names they reports, some of the comments by the are called. member for Boulder-Dundas leave a lot The SPEAKER: Order!I I must ask mem- to be desired. I am referring to coniments bers to be quiet. made during the Ascot by-election. The member for Boulder-Dundas must have Dr. DADOUR: With your indulgence, changed his mind. Mr. Speaker, I will mention some of the Mr. Hutchinson: It would not be the names given to homosexuals. They are first time. called "poofters, queens, queers, pansies, daisies, shirt lifters, tan-track riders, Dr. DADOUR: Perhaps he has con- brawn hat men, homos, balaclava men, veniently forgotten. At that time he said cissics, girls, pile drivers, and the men no question of morality should enter into with the child-bearing hips". They are polities. some of the names which come to my Mr. Hartrey: I1do not think I said that, mind, and all of them imply a great deal of scorn. but if I did it was a good observation. Dr. DADOUR: The honourable member I know what roy own reaction is when has probably changed his mind. a homosexual comes into my surgery and tells me he is a homosexual. I am im- Mr. Hartrey: I also change my socks mediately on the defensive and I face my every day. adversary. My defence mechanism starts Dr. DADOUR: At your age, I bet you to work and I say to him, "Okay, as long as forget sometimes!I you stay on that side of the table and I Mr. Hartrey: will stay on this side." Even I have this No, I do not. reaction which has been inculcated over Dr. DADOUR: Homosexuals are scorned the years. I try to show tolerance towards and this is borne out by the number of these people because they need it. They yarns and limericks which one hears about also need the tolerance of the law, and yet themn. The member for Boulder-Dundas at the same time may skin starts creeping would know a few good yams about this and crawling. I do not feel easy, and I subject. However, all such references to never turn my back on them. This revul- homosexuals are scornful and this proves sian is typical of the revulsion experienced the point that those people are open to by most people. If the newspaper report is continual ridicule, true, the Premier himself has indicated I know that if I am having a drink in a that his own thoughts on homosexuality bar and somebody whom I know to be a upset him. My thoughts are similar to homosexual, or whom I suspect to be a those of the Premier, and to those of other homosexual, comes in, my hackles rise people in the House. immediately and I want to get away from Yet, what is the answer? Is this Bill him. Such feelings are basically wrong the answer? That is the one point we but they are inculcated into the way of must decide. I1 am not trying to be a life of most Australians. We despise homo- heretic about this matter. I am trying sexuals: we cannot tolerate them. But, to be as truthful as I know how to be. on the other hand, at barbecues and par- I am trying to be truthful with myself and ties we often see the women In one group I am endeavouring to consider the public and the men in another group and if in general. What should we do about someone were to accuse those men of this highly emotional subject? Homo- homosexual tendencies he would be given sexuals are treated with scorn, and are a hiding. I do not have to press the despised, blackmailed, and assaulted. There point any further; the Australian male is no argument about that. has a great hatred for and intolerance of homosexuals. My concern is again for the young I am referring to the true homosexual people and the so-called bisexuals. I have and not the person who indulges in homo- a fairly good and clear understanding of sexual and heterosexual practices, 'it is the the subject, but I cannot come up with the homosexual about whom we have to make absolute answer. up our minds. Without a doubt, for that Mr. Hartrey: Is the existing law the type of person the law should be changed answer? and this Bill should pass. (ASSEMB3LY.]

A point about homosexuals-and I do chains. It was also apparent that a num- not really know whether this is true or ber of those people were bisexual. While false-is that it is popularly believed they going on or coming off watch on that slip are more precocious than are heterosexuals. I saw many things to which I had to turn This could be true because they are a blind eye because that was the best thinig shunned. to do. Mr. Hartrey: What does the honourable Murder was committed on H.t.AS. member understand by "Precocious"? Australia during the war because of a Dr. DAflOtR: I think the member for blackmail attempt involving homosexual Boulder-Dundas is trying to lead me into activities. The fellow who was attemptiag trouble. I am likely to say the wrong to blackmail was thrown overboard but lie thing whereas I am trying to keep this dis- managed to grab hold of the guard rail. cussion on a Uigh plane. The two other fellows concerned slashed his fingers with knives in an attempt to The SPEAKER: I suggest the honour- get rid of him but they were caught in the able member address the Chair. act. The man who was thrown overboard Dr. DADOUR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. gave a dying deposition of what he had As I said, homosexuals appear to be more been doing, and the two other men were precocious than heterosexuals and more sentenced to be hanged from the yardarmn. often than not they form relationships However, the next port of call for that ship with other homosexuals. was Mauritius and the French believed only in the guillotine so the two men were Mr. Hartrey: I think the honourable brought back to Australia. A Labor member means that they are more promis- Government was in office in New South cuous, does he not? Wales at the time so they were committed Dr. DADOITR: "Promiscuous"-that is to lire imprisonment. One has since. died in the word. Through you, Mr. Speaker, I prison and I imagine that the other man thank the member for Boulder-Dundas for has been released by now. his correction. While serving on H.M.A.S. Hobart I wit- Mr. Hutchinson: He wants to coach nessed a stabbing as a result of homo- everybody. sexual activities and resulting jealousies. That demonstrates we are dealing with Dr. DADOUR: It is found that venereal people who can be quite vicious, and that disease is more common amongst homo- is a point I am trying to make. However, sexuals. I attempted to obtain some sta- the services-the Navy, the Army, and the tistics regarding this matter but they are Air Force-are able to make their own not available In Australia. However, In rules and regulations. The captain of a overseas countries the incidence of venereal ship is in charge of that ship and his word disease is considerably greater amongst is law. He is able to punish people as he homosexuals than it is amongst hetero- sees fit. in this Instance we are not deal- sexuals. This is probably because they are ing with a simple problem. I witnessed more promiscuous and they form casual certain activities, while changing watches relationships and move from one person to on board ship, and I turned a blind eye another. Henice, there is the greater chance because it was none of my business. At of contracting venereal disease. the time I[ felt that if those men wanted to It is often found that primary syphilitic do that sort of thing it was their business disease is hidden in the anus and is not and not mine. So even then I was begin- obvious because the primiary sore is not ning to show some tolerance, and that was painful. Within the last 12 months I was 29 years ago. speaking to a surgeon who thought he had One or two aspects of the Navy really two cases in one week of cancer in the worry me. When a new ship's company was rectum. However, as a result of biopsies coming on board, I have actually seen and the pathological reports showed tertiary overheard the old salts who are standing syphilitic lesions which were amenable to on the gangplank watching the young, medical treatment. It was not necessary to fresh-faced boys coming up. One would carry out surgery for the total removal of say, "He's mine", and another would say, the rectum and anus. Both those eases "He's mine". They respected each other's concerned homosexuals so there is evi- pickings. Then they would proceed to be- dence to prove that homosexuals are more come the sea daddies of those boys and try inclined to contract venereal disease. to lead them into homosexuality. I main- tain that many lads of that age could It seems that homosexuals gravitate to easily be led into homosexuality by an old certain types of professions and establish- salt. It is the bisexual who worries me. ments. For some reason or other, they Mr. Bickerton: It happened have always been attracted to the Navy. I in the Army, can recall that while serving on H.M.,A.S. too. Hobart during the war, out of a crew of Dr. DADOUR: When the Navy person- 550 men at least 21 were known homo- nel could not. get anywhere with their own sexuals. Each one of those homosexuals people, they usually took on the Air Force had a circle of boyfriends. They were re- or the Army. They were not very particu- ferred to as vicious circles and daisy lar. it worried mue that the old salts would [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 5817

stand on the gangway watching the young, boys in the same way as you view the pro- fresh-faced, adolescent boys coming on curing of little girls." He was a man who bard, and would then proceed to show would move one with his sincerity. them the golden rivet at a later date, with This Is the man we are trying to help. the sole intention of leading them on to I will help him, and I will vote to help hinm. hcmosexuality. I know that, medically, I am sure it is in everybody's heart to help many of them could have been led into this type of man. I asked him, "How many homosexuality, although given different homosexuals, like yourself, do you know?" circumstances when they grew older they He said, "One." He knew only one, yet would give up their homosexual tenden- he moved In homosexual circles all the cies or Practices and become heterosexual. time. The expression "normal heterosexual I do not know the answer to his prob- activities" has crept into my vocabulary, lems. Yet we find Kinsey coming out with but most people are heterosexuals. a fantastically high figure and Havelock A completely homosexual person came Ellis coming out with another figure, per- to mny surgery one day and announced to haps because these people, having been me that he was a homosexual. The story persecuted, are very sensitive and do not was that two years previously he had a like others to know about it. It is for this nervous breakdown. He did not have a reason that I would like the legislation to clue what was wrong with him; he did not be Passed. We would have no trouble in understand. He reached only the second voting for legislation to assist people of or third year at high school. His I.Q. was this type who are 100 per cent. homosexual. average; it was not high. He went to a Having compromised with myself to help Psychiatrist, who told him he was a homo- one homosexual, must I help another 10 sexual and that he should seek out a friend who are probably not deserving of help? -a male companion who was homosexual. As I go along I will speak about these This he did. He was living with the other points. homosexual and they were buying the I can well remember a woman who came house in their joint names. When he came running up to my door when I was in the to me he was very upset because the previ- middle of my dinner. At the time I had ous night he had been working and when not long been in practice. She was most he came home he found the man he was concerned about her stepson. She had living with having homosexual relations caught him having an affair with his cous- with another man. It took me all my time ins. He was 17 and his cousins were 17 to keep a straight face-I should not say and 18. I presumed it was a heterosexual so, but it did. I said I would be honest relationship, so I said, "There is nothing about these matters. wrong with that. It Is a moral issue be- The remarkable thing was that he said tween you and the children concerned." to me in all seriousness, "That, to me, was She said, "But, doctor, they are boys." I like adultery. If You came home and was somewhat taken aback. However, the caught your wife with another man, it outcome was quite successful. He was would be exactly the same In my view. It merely going through the adolescent stage, is adultery." I asked him, "Do you think when homosexual tendencies are often the psychiatrist was correct in telling you quite prevalent, lie passed through that you were a homosexual?" He said, 'VYes. stage and he is now a young married man I have never been happier until last with a family, and living as a heterosexual. night." He and his companion had a big I presume he Is a complete heterosexual. blue and were going to break up their Mr. T. D. Evans: In your experience, friendship. His friend was a bisexual, and what percentage would be made up of he told my patient, "If you don't put up bisexuals? with this sort of thing I will go square", Dr. DADOTIR: I would think there are by which he meant he would indulge in more bisexuals than homosexuals; more heterosexual activities. than half of the homosexuals are bisexual. Here was a complete homosexual who Mr. T. D. Evans: When you say 10 per was being hurt beyond belief by his bisex- cent, of the population have homosexual ual friend. This Is what keeps ringing in tendencies, do you think that would in- my head. They were buying a house to- clude bisexuals? gether. As far as the true homosexual was concerned, it was a total liaison, as a Dr. DADOtIR: When, at a party, all the liaison in marriage should be, while his men get together and all the girls get friend was a bisexual who had shallow together, that could be regarded as evi- relationships. He was a flitter-he flitted dence of a homosexual tendency. from person to Person. Members can Mr. T. D. Evans: What I am getting at imagine how deeply hurt my patient was. is that homosexuals would not comprise I talked to him and he probably taught 10 per cent, of the Population, would they? me more about homosexuality than any- body else has. In my ignorance, I said to Dr. DADOUR: Oh, no; they would not him, "I don't mind your being a hom- represent 10 per cent. of the population. sexual, but I do despise the fact that You I think we would probably find the true procure little boys." He said, "I want you position Is that 5 per cent, of the popula- to know that I view the procuring of little tion are homosexuals, and that 5 Per cent. 5848 5848(ASSEMBLY.) includes bisexuals. Of that 5 per cent., become heterosexuals, but they must Aye true homosexuals would probably comprise down their past and because we have' this between 1 and 2 per cent., and the other law on the Statute book they may hive 3 or 4 per cent. would be homosexuals. I even been blackmailed. So in that respect think the stigma of the law would make the liberalisation of the, law is called !or. bisexual many of these people who other- I have already related the story of a yoxlg wise would be complete homosexuals. Con- complete homosexual who said to me that vention forces many of them to take part he viewed the procuring of little boys just in heterosexual activities; that is another as I view the procuring of little gus. argument in favour of the Bil. This man was an extremely genuine chap Another case that I came across con- who had a lot to live for. He was an cerned an eternal triangle. The chap in- emotional person and at that stage he had volved was married, and he also had his already received psychiatric treatment and boy friend living in his home. All hell was in the process of adjusting himself broke loose one night when he came home when the incident to which I referred took and found his boy friend in bed with his place. He met a person who was helping wife. I have never been able to ascertain him, but then unfortunately he caught hiAs whether he was jealous of his boy friend friend with another man. or jealous of his wife. However, to clear I would like to bring forward anothier it up quickly, we put his wife in hospital point. I asked the Attorney- General ithe and kept her quiet for a couple of weeks, percentage of male homosexuals in Western and everything was hunky-dory at home. Australia and he replied that no figures This is an example of a different type of were available for this State. However, triangle. be said that overseas estimates Indicated There are two types of homosexuals. that 10 per cent, of the Population had Firstly there are those who are homo- homosexual tendencies. I then asked the sexual as a result of their genetic or Minister for Health a question regarding hereditary make-up. These are the true the incidence of gonorrhea and syphilis in homosexuals and often they have some Western Australia in respect of hetero- female physical characteristics. They are sexuals and homosexuals, He said that in not hermaphrodites;, they are males to all 1972, 1.467 notifications of gonorrhea and intents and purposes. Hence we get the 258 notifications of syphilis were received saying that a man has child-bearing hips. in a population of 1,053,182. He also etc. Such people may have nice clean pointed out that no notification is made faces;, they may grow very little hair on in respect of sexual deviants. their faces. They look like many of our Mr. Hartrey:, They wouldn't notify it youth today who are going through this because they would be gaoled. phase. Then there is the other type of homo- Dr. DADOTJR: Mr. Speaker, I know sexual who is the result of his environ- somebody else I would like to put in gaol. ment. This is where the majority of Yesterday I asked questions of the bisexuals are found. Often this type of Attorney-General in respect of this matter, homosexual is the son of a very dominant and the figures given are rather astonish- mother who is either widowed or else has a Ing. In 1964, 98 charges were laid for the husband who is so weak that he does 'not offence of indecent dealing with females count. Such an environment can produce under the age of 16 years, and in the same a homosexual. year 39 charges were laid In respect of the offence of indecent Other homosexuals of this type are pro- dealing with boys under duced when they are placed in prisons or the age of 14 years. reformatory schools. They can be led along We have been told that 90 per "ent. of the path to homosexuality by older lads the population are heterosexuals and that in boarding schools teaching them homno- 10 per cent, have homosexual tendencies. sexual practices. This kind of environ- So 90 per cent, of the male population was ment can play a large part in making responsible for 98 cases of indecent dealing these people the way they are. Probably with females under the age of 16 years: some of thiem were true homosexuals in the and 10 per cent, of the male population first place, but I am sure the majority of the State was responsible for 39 charges would become made or environmental of indecent dealing with boys under the homosexuals. Had they been given aL age of 14 years. If we multiply the 39 different environment or upbringing they offences against little boys by 1O in order would not have become homosexuals, but to make it represent 100 per cent. of the would have remained heterosexuals. Many male population, we get a proportionate young People go through this Phase, and figure of 390 little boys being indecently by far the great majority of them become dealt with. These figures are true; they heterosexuals and give away their homo- hold fast, So we find that when considered sexual tendencies when they mature. proportionately the number of offences The Way the law stands at the moment, against little boys is about three times these people are still tabbed. They may greater than the number of offences seek normal relationships and may try to against girls under the age of 16. [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 5849

Mr. Hartrey: There is a very good party matter and I Voted reason on Party lines. for that: the police do not take That would have made it much easier for action in Children's Court cases. me. Dr. DADOtJR: Mr. Speaker, the mem- Mr. T. D. Evans: You do have a party ber for Boulder-Dundas can mumble all vote? he likes now and get up and make his Dr. DADOUR: Yes, but not on moral -speech later. issues. Mr. Hartrey: I was not mumbling; I Sir Charles Court: We do not take our spoke quite loudly and distinctly. members out and shoot them down if they Dr. DADOTUf: Those are the figures pro- do not vote the way we want them to!i -duced to me; if the interpretation I have Dr. DADOUR: I am, not trying to destroy Placed upon them is wrong, then the hon- the Dill. I am trying to vote for it and Curable -member can correct it later. The to help the minority of this class of people. point is that I am worried-and I am sure I am trying to get that message --we across, be- are all worried-about the procuring of cause I am concerned about the Young lads and the interference with little boys under in our community. I know they go through the age of 14 years. As I pointed out, In an uneasy stage In their lives, and I know 1964 there were 39 charges of indecently how easy it is to mislead them. if we dealing with little boys, and 98 charges of had to deal only with the type indecently Of Person dealing with young girls. I have mentioned, and not the bashers and Mr. Hartrey: They are only those in the blackmailers, it would be easier for me: Criminal Court: all the others-hundreds but unfortunately we have to deal with all of th'em-were in the Children's Court. these People and we have to legislate to cover them collectively, including the Dr. DADOUR: If that is the case we will bashers and blackmailers. 'have to get the Attorney-General to give Mr. T. D. Evans: us more comparable figures. How do You prove such a person is a basher or blackmailer and Mr. TI. D. Evans: This proposed law will comes under the bisexual category? not change that situation in any way at Dr. DADOTJR: all. If the Attorney-eneral had Put some effort into Preparing the Dr. DADOUR: No. but it will give these answer he gave to my question, I would People a little more license; that is the have been supplied with the Information I Point that worries me. required. The answer Of the Attorney- General Mr. T. D. Evans: It will give thenm no to the question I asked Yesterday license at all. was- (1) (a) and (b) Nil (only major as- Dr. DADOUR: Yesterday I asked the saults recorded). Attorney-General the following question- (2) Answered by (I). (1) How many- The Police would know many of these (a) charges: and cases, and the police would know who are (b) convictions, the bashers. have there been in each of the Mr. T. D Evans: The information was past ten years in Western Aus- supplied by the Police Department. tralia, concerning- Dr- DADOTJR: On such an important (I) bashing (assault); subject the Attorney-General should have (it) blackmail, come back with a better answer. He should of male homosexuals? not have Compelled me to ask a further question on this matter so as to obtain (2) How many of those- the information. (a) charged: and Mr. T. D. Evans: You asked the question (b) convicted, in such a manner that the information you were homosexuals or "bisexuals"? sought has not been recorded. That being the case You could not expect any differ- I maintain that the "poofter" bashers and ent answer. blackmailers fall into the bisexual cate- gory. Dr. DADOUR: I still maintain the Attorney-General should It is have undertaken a cause of concern to me that in some research and supplied the informa- giving a license to the true homosexual we tion, because this matter is will at the same time of great im- have to give a portance. How can we be expected to vast license to those who blackmail, bash, and a vote if the Attorney-General Physically hurt these comes back People. These are with an answer like that? the ones I was referring to in the If he had said Navy as that the bashers were not bisexuals I having bashed and blackmailed these would people. be satisfied. Mr. T. D. Evans: How would a court Probably I am giving too much thought determine whether a Person to this was a bisexual question, and probably it would or a homosexual? The court would not have been better for me if this became a necessarily know. 5850 5850rASSEMBLY.]

Dr. DADOUR: The police would know That is a rather tight definition. which of these people are bisexuals and Mr. T. D. Evans: That would include the which are homosexuals' bisexuals. M r. T. D. Evans: Perhaps the member Dr. DADOUR: Yes. for Subiaco is not aware that it is not a question of what the police know, but what Mr. T. D. Evans: Predominantly. the court records. Dr. DADOUR: The Criminal Code does Dr. DADOUR: I still think these figures not define homosexuality. in the Code it could have been obtained or some opinion is referred to as an offence against morality from the Commissioner of Police could or an unnatural offence. The Wolfenden have been supplied. committee said that the offence described might be regarded as a homosexual offence. Mr. T. D. Evans: You asked the Attorney- Buggery is a homosexual offence, although General to obtain the information from Now I the records of the court, and that is what often I have been told to go there! I have done. know what it means. The offence of buggery at common law Dr. DADOUR: The question has not been consists of sexual Intercourse in public or answered. in private- Mr. T. D. Evans: Because it was not 0) per anus between men; properly asked. (ii) in the same manner between Dr. DADOtiR: That might be so. I did man and woman; or ask the question, but unfortunately the (iii) in any manner between man or Attorney-General only half did his job in answering it, It is my responsibility to woman and beast. make up my mind on this matter which The first part-per anus between men- is of great importance to our own sons; constitutes a homosexual offence. The yet the Attorney-General says, "What does terminology is rather vague, and is difficult it miatter? Ask the question properly." of understanding as far as I am concerned. Mr. T, D, Evans: I did not say that at I know that lawyers have difficulty in all. understanding those terms, and they have argued over them at great length. Dr. DADOUR: If I were sitting where the Attorney-General is now sitting I The second part--the act between a man would do everything in my power to ob- and a woman-as well as the first part may tain as many figures as possible to answer be referred to as sodomy. The third part- the question. I would not say, "You had the act between man or woman and beast- better ask the question correctly, because is referred to as bestiality. One wonders no figures are kept." whether at the same time we should not Mr. T. D. Evans: You did not ask for an remove the provision pertaining to male opinion. beasts! Dr. DADOUR: There is no definition of Mr. T. DI. Evans; I hope you are only "homosexuality" in the Criminal Code or being facetious in saying that. in any of our Statutes. If there is then Dr. DADOUR: I am. At the same time perhaps I am remiss in not being able to the Bill introduced by the Minister in no discover it. way imakes homosexuality compulsory. Of Mr. Hartrey: It is termed "unlawful course this is a very important aspect. One carnal knowledge against the order of could mention that facetiously, but it is nature". still important. Dr. DADOUR: That means exactly In this regard I shall relate a story told nothing. It seems that in these times by a man who had left Great Britain. He everything goes. What is the order of said that when he was a young man such nature? We have to accept homosexuality acts were tolerated, and that later on a as being part of the life of the community. law was passed to make such acts legal. He said that he got out of Great Britain Mr. Hartrey: it is not part of nature. just before they made these acts compul- Dr. DADOUR: The order of nature sory! means nothing. This is a confusion of I think everyone has heard that story. terms, just as the member for Boulder- The second homosexual offence described Dundas himself is confused. One defini- in the Wolf enden report is indecent assault tion has been given by Robert Lindner, by males on males; the third is gross in- and it is as follows- decency between males; and the fourth A term applied only to those in- concerns summary offences involving in- dividuals who more or less chronically decency between males. Should the forms feel an urgent sexual desire towards, of indecency be committed in public they and a sexual responsiveness to, mem- become a police offence; they are not bers of their own sex, and who seek governed by the Criminal Code. The law gratification of this desire predomin- will not permit people to have homosexual antly with members. of their own sex. intercourse in public, just as one cannot (Wednesday, 5 December, 19731 585155 have heterosexual intercourse in public. It such actions; they may fear that they will is a police offence and there is no argui- be prosecuted for the acts in which they mient about that. have Participated. Because of this the figures that are available would, I should Mr. Rushton: It is permitted in foot- think, be the bare minimum. ball dlubs. Because of the existing law many homo- Dr. DADOUR: I cannot understand why sexuals are forced underground. They are people should be permitted to view live silent; they do not dare say a word for shows depicting heterosexuality. Out of fear of jeopardsing their own freedom. the corner of mny eye I have seen certain Sitting suspended from 3,45 to 4.02 p.mn. homosexual activities and this abhors me. Dr. DADOUR: Before the suspension I I think it is wrong that we should have was saying that, as a result of the present to watch heterosexual activity; and I am law, many homosexuals are forced under- now, of course, speaking for myself. If I groiund to avoid Jeopardising their free- wanted to watch this type of activity I dom, social Position, and sometimes even would watch it in a room full of mirrors- their well-being. No reliable estimates on I would watch myself-because I do not homosexuality have ever been produced In wish to see anybody else indulging in these Australia, but figures from other countries activities; that is for sure. will act as a guide. The Bill seeks to remove certain pro- With your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, I visions and to alter the law as it stands. will refer to the estimates of other coun- But two things have to be done. Firstly tries at certain times. . In 1938 Havelock it is necessary for us to repeal certain pro- Ellis estimated that between 2 per cent. visions and replace these with a further and 5 per cent, of British males were provision which would prevent a third per- homosexuals. About the samne time Terman son touting for homosexual acts between and Mills estimated that 4 per cent. of two people. It is necessary that this be American males were homosexuals. Hirsch- done. feld said that 2.3 per cent. of German males were exclusively homosexual with a The Bill is actually doing two things; it further 3.4 per cent, being bisexual. More is making homosexual relationships behind recently a Swedish survey has revealed closed doors acceptable-such action will that 2 per cent, are exclusively homosexual not be against the Criminal Code-and and 4 per cent, bisexual. The Wolfenden secondly, the, Bill will make it an offence committee said that those figures were for a third person to tout with a view the lowest which had been brought to its to endeavouring to form a homosexual liai- notice. son between two people. I gather that Probably the most reliable figures are these are the purposes of the Bill. those of Kinsey in the United States who When I consider this aspect in the light said that 37 per cent. of all males had an in which I am speaking I find it is very overt homosexual experience between adol- wholesome. I wish to go a little further escence and old age. I repeat that figure and refer to a few other matters. it is of 37 per cent. He also said that 10 per only by speaking to the Bill in this House cent, are exclusively homosexual for a that I will be able to convince myself how period of at least three years between the I should vote on the measure. In trying ages of 16 and 55. These figures are high. to come to this conclusion I have been Mr. Hartrey: They are ridiculous. torn asunder and like other members I have found the whole matter to be very Dr. DADOUR: The Kinsey report states difficult indeed. Accordingly we must show that 4 per cent, of white males are ex- clusively homosexual for all their lives. a great deal of concern, and view all as- Kinsey maintains that 6 per cent, of the pects of the matter seriously. total sexual outlet in the United States Is As members will appreciate the whole obtained from homosexual sources. That subject is very difficult to understand and. means 6 per cent. of the total. accordingly, from certain of the books that I have read I have taken notes to help me Mr. Hartrey: Are those figures exclusive with my argument. With your indulgence, to males or do they include females? Mr. Speaker, I propose to refer to these Dr. DADOUR: The figures refer to homo- notes from time to time because, as I have sexual males. said, the subject is a very technical one. So I hope. Sir, that you will bear with me. Mr. Hartrey: I would say that 37 per cent. is a ridiculous figure. One of the most difficult aspects Is to endeavour to establish just how big is Dr. DADQUR: Whether the member for the problem. I do not think any of us is Boulder-Dundas likes it or not- in any doubt that it is much larger than Mr. Hartrey: It is not a question of we ever thought it to be. The figures that my liking It; I do not believe it. are available to US Must surely be the bare minimum, because there is little doubt Dr. DADOUS: -these figures are an that people will endeavour to bide their absolute minimum as many homosexuals actions for fear of prosecution and the avoided the survey for obvious reasons. If stigma that might be attached to Kinsey's figure of 4 per cent, represents (ASS~bhLYJ]

exclusive homosexuals we can say that in As is known, many homosexuals do not Australia there would be at least 100,000 practise but their feelings are latent. In males and there may even be as many as many cases this is through ignorance and 500,000 males who have had considerable in many others it is because the people homosexual experience. concerned are scared stiff in consequence Consequently it can be seen that we are of the law as It stands at the moment. not dealing with one or two people but Further, others are mentally ill. with a very large number of people-a Mr. T. D. Evans: Many show temperance much larger number than I would have because of a fear of the law and other anticipated. factors. I feel that these figures are possibly high Dr. DADOUR: We now have a differ- for the Australian community, because our ent argument. The argument is that way of life is somewhat different from that latent homosexuals are those who suffer of the average miale in the United States. neuroses, anguish, and anxiety. Once they As can be seen, the problem is a vast one. find out that they are homosexuals and It directly and indirectly affects a great remain latent, they face a great tempta- number of people. It is extremely difficult tion. It is easier for these people to seek to make a true assessment of the amount male company than female company and, of homosexuality in our society because of consquently, the temptation is that much the very nature of the law at the moment. greater. The law is such that nobody will came forward and be truthful about this. No- I know of one case of a latent homo- body will partlehtiate truthfully in any sexual, who wished to become a minister survey because that person could be jeo- of a church which demands- celibacy. After pardising his own career. a great deal of interrogation by several psychiatrists he was eventually accepted to The figures which are obtained from become a minister of the church. The the United States would be a minimum for church showed tolerance in the case of that country but I do not think they that man in a situation where temptation would be a minimum for Australia. I would be greater for him because he think they would be a little high for Aus- would be with mnale company. The tralia. devil was with him; he was not with- Sometimes we hear that homosexuals out. If the church can show tolerance 1 have a higher intelligence than hetero- feel that I possibly can and I hope other sexuals, but this is a fallacy. Kinsey members also will show tolerance in. this stated in his report that by far the majority respect. of homosexuals he encountered in his The majority of practising homosexuals survey had reached only secondary school are frightened to talk about it for obvious standard-probably to the levcl of the reasons. They hide the fact that they are Junior in this country. It is a fallacy that homosexuals because It would je6pardlse homosexuals are of a higher intellectual their careers if it were known and, even grouping than heterosexuals, although worse, It would be possible for others to some are. We all know that certain pro- blackmail them. It is well known that fessions such as art, theatre, and painting such people are wonderful targets for seem to attract homosexuals. Of ten blackmail. people with homosexual tendencies gravi- Perhaps I may ponder for a short while tate towards these professions. They do not on the issues concerned from the religious become homosexuals by virtue of being in- point of view. So far as the churches are volved in those professions. I think they concerned the origin of the Christian gravitate to the professions because of attitude to homosexuality can be traced their very nature. back to a corrupt version of the Hebrew Further, Kinsey comments on the homo- legend of Sodom. We are told that God sexual activities between lumbermen in destroyed Sodom as a punishment for the the outback where it is something of a homosexual practices that were taking necessity rather than a desire. place. Apparently this is a misconception. I do not mean that remark facetiously, Mr. Hartey: The Fremantle Prison. but it is not quite correct. Dr. IJADOUR: The member for Boulder- Mr. Hartrey: God destroyed Sodom. Dundas, for a change, is speaking about something he knows. However, I have not Dr. DADOUR: I wish somebody would progressed that far in my notes. Homo- destroy the member for Boulder-Dundas sexual activity between lumbermen was who Is like a thorn in my side. I will not quickly over and done with. It did not allow his mumblings to worry me. have any of the niceties of the urban type There are two points which theologians of homosexuality, with all the associated argue about. The first is that most homoa- loving and Petting. The activity between sexual acts arc not likely to harm any- lumbermen was a far different type of liai- body except those participating. This Is not son. We probably find the true bisexual quite a valid argument. I know of homo- amongst lumbermen rather than amongst sexuals who have hurt other people. If the urban type of homosexual. their families find out they mast certainly (Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 585385 hurt those people. If a person marries and exhibitions are shown. However, we cer- then finds that he is a homosexual, he tainly do not see It In the streets. So I hurts a great number of people. Con- do not believe homncsexual activities will sequently, the argument that homosexual increase, but the people concerned will be acts are not likely to harm anybody ex- more open about It. I do not believe there cept those participating is not quite what will be an Increase In permissiveness. It appears to be. One may argue that if there is no The second point is that any act con- reason for men to suffer for or to con- trary to the natural order is against the ceal their homosexual tendencies, then will of God, particularly if it involves the many will openly indulge in such practices enjoyment of a forbidden pleasure. or relations and this wll come to the I know I sound like a minister of relig- attention of their wives. This argument. has ion coming out with these sentiments, but been put forward. but It would be a very I am trying to show the history of the dumb wife who did not know she was legislation. As far as the church is con- married to a homosexual. As a matter of cerned, the objective of sexual activity is fact, I know of many marriages of this the consummation of a Christian mar- type which are quite successful. It is riage and procreation. This is how it came usually due. to the unqualified under- about that homosexual activities were con- standing of the wife that such marriages sidered to be against the natural order have become and remain successful. So I which is for the consummation of mar- do not believe these wives will find out riage. anything they do not already know. if we "decriminalise" homosexual activities, Mr. Hartrey: Do you have to ask a we will not alter this church whether sodomy is natural or un- pattern. natural? Have you not got any gumption Many arguments are put forward as to yourself ? why we should inhibit or stop homosexual activities In our community. The results Dr. DADOUR: I am merely relating the of extramarital relations can be far more story as I understand it. If the member for devastating than the results of homo- Boulder-Dundas becomes any worse, I will sexual activities. And yet there Is no law ask him to withdraw any remarks of a against extramarital relations, which can derogatory nature he may make. I am hurt a great many more people. This making the speech. If the member for reasoning is quite valid. Boulder-Dundas, in all his years, has a vested Interest, good luck to him. Let him We can, of course, come back to the old keep it. argument that lesbianism Is not a crime. The SPEAKER: I suggest that the hon- Homosexual activities amongst females the Chair are not referred to in the Statutes. I do curable member should address not know how much truth there Is in it, and take no notice of the interjections. but I am told that this is because Queen Dr. DADOtIR: I am doing my best, Mr. Victoria did not believe that relationships Speaker. My understanding is that homo- of this type could occur. sexuality was considered to be against the Mr. T. D. Evans: I understand she had natural order, and it is for this reason that some Influence In drafting the criminal law it was included in the Statutes as an of 1875. offence. Nobody is arguing about that but I am simply stating the history. The Dr. DADOUR: I thank the Attorney- Roman Catholic Church, the Church of General, through you, Mr. Speaker. I do England, and recently the Presbyterian not believe all these terrible happenings and Methodist Churches, have come cut in will occur. favour of repealing the legislation because I cannot Imagine I will have my bottom they believe it is a social and not a relig- tapped If we "decrimlnalise" homosexual ious issue. So this is the decision of the activities. I do not believe I will be ap- churches. in their wisdom. proached to take part in these activities. Does homosexuality harm society as we I believe the old saying that nature looks know it? Many arguments are put forward after its own. Anyway, nobody would touch that it does. We have heard that if the me; I am well protected, jaw is repealed we will see a great upsurge Another argument Is that homosexual in homosexual activities. I do not believe activities are unproductive as there is no the activity will increase but the people procreation. Well, many heterosexual indulging in it will be more open about it. activities do not create children. I am They will not have to hide their tendenc- approached many times these days with ies because of the fear of prosecution, I requests for vasectomies, salpingectoiny, do not believe they will flaunt their homo- the pill, or for the male pill which is being sexual activities, and I do not believe we researched at the moment. The number of will see homosexual acts in company or requests I receive Is quite fantastic. So in public. if the majority of heterosexual activities At the present time we do not see occurring In the community do not produce fornication in company, unless perhaps we children, it is fallacious to use this argu- go to one of the league clubs where these ment in respect of homosexual activities. 5854 5854ASSEMBLY.1

I must say as a Child I used to belie~e out fear of prosecution, and we will know that every sexual act resulted in a birth. more about their activities through sur- However, I found out that this was quite veys. incorrect. Does the Present law prevent homo- I come now to the argument put up sexual activities? No law can change basic about the corruption of youth, and this behaviour Patterns. These patterns may point really does concern me. I can live be modified a little, but they cannot be with the so-called bisexual, but we must altered. So the present law in regard to protect our Youth. Members will know homosexuals is not doing anything in this that 'a youth goes through a very tender sphere. We know that prison sentences period of experimentation. At this stage merely increase the opportunities for fur- some youths may have a homosexual liai- ther homosexual activities, as the member son. We are led to believe that hero wor- for Boulder-Dundas said. So the prison ship is a form of homosexual tendency. We sentences imposed on homosexual offend- like to believe that our sportsmen are true ers are not effective in regard to rehabili- Australian heterosexuals, and because of tation. It is obvious that Prison terms the hero worship they engender in our present more temptation to offenders. young people we shudder to think that some of them may be homosexuals. Some So the three objectives of the law-to homosexuals have proved to be extremely deter, to prevent, and to rehabilitate- good sportmen, and I am thinking of tennis are not being achieved by the present law and football in particular. We view homno- in regard to homosexuals. We must re- sexuality In leading sportsmen with a member that female homosexuality Is out- great deal of worry. I feel that usually side the law. If we pass this measure, the youth comes through this period unscathed. liberation of man is getting closer and If the homosexual Is able to Practise his closer. One day it may be equal to that homosexuality as he so desires with the of the female! person he desires, and if he Is not afraid I come now to the medical issues. First of prosecution, or of being pressured or of all we have the true Invert, the true blackmailed, then I feel he will make a homosexual. This is a male who has cer- more lasting homosexual liaison. He will tain female characteristics, and I spoke not be so Permissive in following his of him earlier. His behaviour Is brought homojexuai tendencies, and he Will not about by a generic condition-the result procure different partners. of heredity. We then have those indi- The remarks of a true homosexual whom viduals who have homosexual traits which I spoke to some time ago still ring In my are not caused by heredity but which have ears. He told me that he viewed the pro- been brought about by their environment curing of little boys in the same way as -their upbringing. This could be a per- I view the procuring of little girls, and I son who has a strong mother and a weak believe this is true. As I said earlier, this father. He has been completely dominated man educated me about the thought pro- by his mother and he has homosexual cesses and activities of homosexuals. traits. Such people have a, very strong sense of guilt in regard to their homo- I will now turn to the legal issues, and sexual acts. This is the only group of I realise I am not qualified In this sphere homosexuals where treatment is In any -we do have three lawyers in the House. way effective. However, I will give my understanding of We then have the third group of emo- the law. The laws are to protect society tionally Immature homosexuals. These and the individual and they should act People are usually reserved and sensitive as a deterrent, to prevent crime, and to and they also have a strong feeling of rehabilitate offenders. I believe the guilt about their tendencies. Included in Attorney-General will agree with me, al- this group, of course, is the true psychotic though he may be able to elaborate a little or psychopathic type, and homosexuality more on the purposes of the law. With is only one of the symptoms in the overall the objectives of the law in mind, what is picture of psychosis. the effect of the present law? Firstly, is it a deterrent? The Wolfenden report tells As I have said, medical treatment offers us that It is not a deterrent. Only a very only little help to those in the second small number of people committing homo- group, and not to many in that group. sexual acts are actually apprehended. So Nevertheless that is the group that is the law in respect of homosexuals does more amenable to treatment. Of course not function as a deterrent. those in the third group would be treated for their psychotic state and if Will the "decriminalisation" of homo- their psychosis were cleared theIr out- sexuality increase the number of homo- look would probably be changed from that sexuals? I do not believe it will. What will of a homosexual to that of a heterosexual. happen is that we Will have a more All in all, medical science has extremely accurate figure in regard to the number of little to offer these people, and at the homosexuals in the community. Homo- moment the law Is not offering them very sexuals will be able to come forward with- much. (Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 5855

I firmly believe that the repeal of the the downward tendency of man generally relevant sections in the Criminal Code by towards being influenced by the powers of means of this Bill will be a step in the evil. If a man does not control these right direction. I still have misgivings tendencies through his mental powers he about the measure, because I am not en- will naturally go down, as everything else tirely convinced. I know other safeguards goes down unless it has something to hold will still remain in the police courts it up. where penalties will be imposed for crim- By this Bill we are seeking to degrade inal acts, especially those concerning the and promote a negative attitude among procurement of little boys. There is men. We are seeking to Promote evil another safeguard remaining against the tendencies among members of the com- person who continues to try to bring two munity. We all know these tendencies people together for the purpose of com- are latent without action being taken to mitting a homosexual act. He will still Promote them. However, when they are be guilty of a crime, whereas the homo- Promoted and are given the seal of legal sexual will not be. endorsement I believe we are doing some- thing which is morally wrong. To say Mr. Hartrey: He would be under the that this Bill does not represent a pro- homosexual law. motion of homosexual acts would be Dr. DADOUR: I am talking about when wrong. the Bill Is passed. I believe the other In support of that statement I can quote problem relating to the bisexuals will a case that was Published in the Daily eventually sort itself out. I think by "de- News on the 29th October, 1973. This re- crimninalising" him the bashers will have lated to a group of Melbourne homosex- less scope within which to operate. uals who visited secondary schools in the metropolitan area to give talks to schol- I can honestly say that I can vote for ars between 14 and 18 years of age. By this legislation. I thank the House for this report we were told that members of being tolerant with me in listening to my this "gay liberation" movement had re- arguments. I repeat that I have given ceived invitations to visit these schools the subject a great deal of thought, as after reading advertisements in the Vic- members no doubt already understand. torian State School Teachers' Union news- Therefore at this juncture I feel I have paper. In response to those advertisements said too much. replies were received from homosexuals and lesbian teachers offering to speak to MR. WV. A. MANNING 'Narrogin) the scholars in the secondary schools. [4.33 p.mn.]: Very few words will cover What was the purpose of that move? I what I need to say on this Bill. Firstly I would say it was a question of salesman- was most surprised to see a large heading ship; a question of selling their wares. on the front page of The West Australian Recently, in the legislation introduced drawing attention to the introduction of by the Government relating to the sale of this Bill as if it were the most important goods we have heard mention of days of news of the day. Of course one is left to grace, but in this instance I feel sure that judge whether it is the most important no days of grace would be allowed. One of good news or the most important bad the reasons advanced for permitting news. Perhaps the implication of the Bill homosexuals to talk to Pupils in the Vic- could be quite serious and that is the rea- torian schools was that it would help them son it was given a prominent place on the to realise that they were not alone in the Australian. world. If anyone tried to tell me that they front page of The West visited those schools merely for the pur- Mr. T. D. Evans: Or could it be that it Pose of making the Pupils realise they may sell more newspapers? Let us be were not alone in the world I would cer- honest. tainly not be convinced. In my opinion they were there to sell their wares, as it Mr. W. A. MANNING: That could be were. That was their sole Purpose, and if right, too. It could be said that by legalis- homosexuality is legalised such incidents Ing homosexuality we will place a seal of will naturally become more prevalent. approval on it and to this I will certainly not subscribe. I speak principally from a In regard to those people who perhaps moral point of view, and that will not have unintentional homosexual tendencies to what and who have been described and dealt take me long. I wish to refer with most capably by the member for the Bible says on this subject. It says, Subiaco, I believe that they should be "against the natural use". Another word treated as people who are suffering from that is used in the Bible is "unseemly". an illness and should not be encouraged in describing homosexuality I agree en- to engage in homosexuality as a result of tirely with those terms. A man is our placing the stamp of approval on it created on three bases-moral, Physical, with this Bill. and spiritual. He is born with a brain thatl is developed with ever-increasing activity The SPEAKER: I ask members to re- on a widening scope, especially when we main in their seats. consider the happenings in the world Mr. W. A. MANNINlG: By placing the today. He also has the power to control stamp of approval on homosexuality we the influence of gravity, or I should say will enhance the possibility of its being 5856 5856[ASSEMBLY.]

carried into a, greater number of areas and member will during the course of this de- ,among many more people than it is today, bate-and to those people who have and in my opinion such acts should not be written to me on this matter, that they practised. I have cited instances of this may be talking about themselves being happening already in the secondary schools converted to homosexuality after the in Victoria. and obviously if this Bill is passage of this Bill, they would answer, passed such instances Will occur in our "No, we are not talking about ourselves." State. At the moment I feel sure that If I were to say that they may be talking homosexual acts are not prevalent in about their sons, no doubt they would Perth, but once we place a stamp of ap- reply, "No, we are not talking about our proval on homosexuality we are moving stons." If I were to press them they would backwards and aiding the forces of evil say they were talking about someone else which are difficult enough to curb at any who may be influenced with the passage of time. Therefore I must oppose the Bill. this Bill. The plain fact of the matter is that when we are confronted with a situa- MR. R. L. YOUNG (Wemnbley) [4.38 tion such as this we are confronted with p.m.]: I rise to speak to this Bill because much the same situation as members of I believe there is an obligation on every this House were confronted with when member of the House to do so. they went to view some pornographic films Mr. T. D. Evans: Not all of them, I' a coupl? of years ago. hope. No member who viewed those films Mr. Rt. L. YOUNG: The Attorney- would claim that he himself had suddenly General and other members on the other become depraved as a result of viewing side of the House appear to be upset about them, but some claims were made that the that statement. They apparently do not rest of the community would be depraved want me to speak at length, but they if they were able to view them. Therefore should listen to what I am about to say. to me it seems to be hypocritical for such It is the obligation of every member who members to say that a stamp of approval intends to vote, even If it is contrary to will be placed on homosexuality by the his party policy, to speak to this Bill, I passing of this Bill, which act heterosexual therefore believe I have an obligation to people find abhorrent, because the Bill will say something about it. not do that at all. Homosexual acts have been committed over the centuries, so how I have noticed the lack of members in can it be said that a person will virtually the chamber since the debate on this Bill be converted to homosexuality as a result began. It would appear- that some mem- of the passing of this Bill? That is quite hers do not want to sit here and listen to ludicrous. the debate and perhaps they will be seek- ing a pair when the vote is taken on the Mr. A. R. Tonkin: Of course it is. Bill. There has been a great deal of con- versation going on among groups of mem- Mr. Rt. L. YOUNG: It is also ludicrous to bers who have not been listening to the say that the whole population, except us, proceedings in the Chamber and, as I have as members of Parliament, will be sub- already implied, I do not know how many jected to this tremendous pressure, but applications for pairs have been made. It we ourselves are beyond any possibility of would be interesting to know. being converted to homosexuality. I find such a statement slightly more than it appears to me that when a piece of hypocritical. legislation such as this is introduced into the Parliament at least there is an obliga- When we discuss these matters, invari- tion on every member to listen to what is ably we refer back to the Bible. I want to taking place and to pay attention to the make something very clear. Most of the debate itself. Further, and most impor- letters I have received about this Bill from tantly, it is incumbent upon a member people who urged rue not to vote for it are who intends to vote opposite to what may from church people, and I respect normally be accepted as being in accor- their views. I want to make it dance with the view of his party to take clear that I have nothing against a person a stand on an issue such as this. who holds something sacred to himelf From time to time I have received letters and who endeavours to live by his code of on this particular subject from people in ethics. However I do have something the community but I have certainly receiv- against those people in the community ed no more in recent days than I re- who would suggest that in this day and ceived In relation to this subject in the age the Parliament of this State has to past. What does disturb me in all these legislate in accordance with principles laid letters is the suggestion that if this legis- down many thousands of years ago. That lation is passed homosexuality will become is quite all right. I do not object to that, so attractive to normal heterosexual people provided the person who makes the claim they will be anxious to indulge in it to a is consistent in his views, and when he greater degree than they do today. enters this Parliament will say he would If I were to suggest to the members who like to Introduce a Bill to "criminalise" may take that line in this Chamber-and adultery and fornication and other similar nobody has so far, but I am sure some acts. [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 5857B5

if someone were to come into this to think of a sex act with one of one's House and introduce a BIll to "crimninalise" own sex, but we are not here to legislate adultery and fornication it would not get In accordance with our prejudices, disgusts, past first base. There Is hardly a member or abborrences, I understand that we are of the community who has not committed here to legislate in accordance with some of adultery within the strict interpretation of the principles we hear so much about from that word in the Bible. I am not suggesting both sides of the House from time to that everyone has committed adultery time, and which people cannot deny are physically, but If we want to Interpret basically Involved In this Bill. the meaning of the word "adultery" ac- We are here to talk about the principles cording to the Bible, adultery is committed of law and justice and about the indi- If a person has lust In his heart and desires vidual. We have spoken about the a woman out of wedlock. in other words individual ad nauseam. When we talk a person has only to think about It and about tha individual and his right to do he has committed adultery. That Is the what he desires, regardless of public interpretation of adultery in the Bible and opinion, provided he does it in private and I think it is fine, but no member of this with a consenting person, are we talking House would Place that Interpretation on about all individuals except homosexuals? "adultery" and say, "We will 'criminalise' Are. we talking about all individuals In adultery and fornication", because 1 under- certain circumstances except some kid stand criminals are not permitted to take with long hair and a pair of dirty sandals? a seat In Parliament, and therefore not I often wonder who is the individual about one of us would be able to take his place whom we talk. in Parliament because we would all be classed as criminals. From time to time I have been chal- lenged by those on the other side who I also want to know who cried out last have told me I am not Interested in indi- year when football clubs were turning on viduals, but only in big business. I want heterosexual acts In public. Who cried out everyone to know that when I talk about about the fact that these acts were allowed individuals, I mean individuals and I do to be performed, obviously with the sanc- not care who they are. tion of people In the community? I saw one person on television who said he was It is tough when we have to think of running the shows for the betterment of passing legislation about which we do not the youth of the community. He was like the feel. I hope no-one misinterprets running them to raise money to foster what I am about to say and thinks that children and to give them the opportunity I refer to homosexuals as people who are to play football. Who cried out about sick, because I do not believe they are. those performances and said they were However, there was a time when an epilep- filthy, horrible, and what-have-you? The tic would take a fit in the street and general public laughed about It and re- people would run away from him rather ferred to the Incident as a few boys just than help him. r can distinctly recall having a bit of fun. that when I was a small child I was in I am quite sure that if someone organ- a waiting room of a hospital when a man ised a show somewhere with a donkey and took a fit. The waiting room was deserted a female to raise a few dollars for a club, within two minutes because no-one wanted people would watch It and nudge each to look at the disgusting sight. The sight other In the ribs and say that It was a might have been disgusting to those people, good show and was worth the $5. Yet, what but the man needed help. No-one sug- Is the situation when we talk about tight- gested at that time that the epileptic ening the law so that soliciting for homno- should be classed as a criminal because sexual acts becomes a definite crime?- what he did from time to time as an epilep- which Is what the Bill is half about . At tic, because of illness disgusted people who the same time It Is designed to implement should not have been disgusted. No-one the recommendations of the Wolfenden suggested that, and certainly should not committee, the Australian Council of have suggested it. Churches, and countless other bodies which There was a time when, if a child was Jhave studied homosexuality over the last born left-handed, lt was immediately con- several decades. Those recommendations verted to write with the right hand. Include the "decrlminallsation" of con- senting acts of homosexuality between Mr. A. R. Tonkin: That Is right. adults In private, so that the stigma and Mr. R. L. YOUNG: The child was differ- the possibility of blackmail will be re- ent because everyone else wrote with the moved. right hand. It was explained to the child Because this action is being taken, people he must write with the right hand because say that now is the time to rise up In that was why writing flowed a certain way. great numbers in opposition. I and every The child was told he must learn to write other normal heterosexual understand why with his right hand because it was abso- they feel this way. However, they have not lutely no good to write with the left hand. necessarily thought the matter through Yet now it is accepted that some people to Its logical conclusion. It is disgusting write with the left hand. 5858 5858ASSEbMLY.

The member for Sublaco referred to later with those who can help it-as a prejudice and I am just as guilty as he Is criminal while we regard everyone else in in this regard. He was very honest when the community as a reasonable law-abid- he spoke and I am being honest, too. I ing citizen despite the fact that the homo- do not think any member in this House sexual may lead-anid this may sound dis- is not prejudiced against homosexuals but gusting, but it is true-a perfectly normal at least we must consider the matter and married life with his partner? before we deal with the legislation we The homosexual may be a quiet, re- must admit that we are prejudiced. When served. and law-abiding citizen and go we have done this we must consider what about the rest of his business in a perfectly the legislation Is all about. natural and normal way, but he is re- garded as a criminal while the average The legislation has several purposes, one heterosexual who is not regarded as a of these being to deny a person the right criminal can adulterate, fornicate, and do to solicit another person's body, if he almost anything he likes and is not a happens to be a male, to take part In a criminal. if that is regarded as being a homosexual act. The second portion of reasonable attitude, then perhaps I have the Bill is designed essentially to ensure lost my senses because it does not seem that persons who are homosexuals will reasonable to me. perform their homosexual acts in private and not in public. The Bill Is very clear I agree with the member for Narrogin about that and about the fact that the in one respect and that concerns his acts must be by consenting adult people. opinion of people in the "gay liberation" movement who go to schools at the behest The member for Subiaco made a very of teachers and lecture children about accurate analogy when he referred to the homosexuality. I do not like this situation fact that women have been left out of the either, not because these people are lec- legislation ever since it was first intro- turing on the subject of homosexuality, duced and that it Is about time men who but because they are lecturing on any are homosexuals were given the same pro- form of sexuality. I would not like some- tection of the law. He referred to women's one with no qualifications to come in off lib and men's lib, but I do not want to the street and, because he happens to be a go Into that aspect. However, I thought member of some particular body, lecture his analogy was fairly accurate. my children about sex-homosexual acts or heterosexual acts. When my children I want to talk about things that people are being lectured about the subject I want say concerning cures. I doubt whether to know when they are being lectured and there Is a heterosexual member in this by whom. I want to know that the person Chamber, who, If landed on an Island of giving the lecture has tender understand- homosexuals, would want to be cured of ing of what sex is all about and I want him his heterosexuality. I do not know enough to have the qualifications to give the about the medical aspects of homo- lecture in a way the child will understand; sexuality. The member for Sublaco knows that Is, in a warm and responsive manner. infinitely more about that side of the sub- In that respect, but for a different reason, ject than I do and he chose to support I agree with the member for Narrogin. the Bill because of the many factors he has learnt to understand over the years. * A lot has been said about the reason for However: I know I would not want to be a homosexual being what he is. I would converted to homosexuality If I were prefer to leave that subject to the psychia- landed on an island of homosexuals. If trists and medical practitioners who have someone told me In those circumstances dealt with homosexuals over the years; but that I had to take the cure, I would rather even they have no concrete answer to the get off the Island. problem. Who knows whether a homosexual is I do know that in heterosexual relation- not on an Island of hieterosexuals when he ships a chemistry is involved. People talk is born? I do not know and neither do and write about it, and it is accepted. those who have dealt with this subject on Sometimes the chemistry is particularly a psychological, medical, and legal basis. strong, and it is so strong in one particu- Consequently if we do not know the ans- lar Person-male or femnale-that it will wer we must be practical. We must realise attract the opposite sex. However, almost that homosexuals have been with us since always in heterosexuals there is an inex- man was created. The other day the Aus- plicable chemical reaction, If such a tralian Council of Churches indicated that chemistry exists between a man and an- it overwhelmingly endorsed a statement to other man, or a woman and another wo- the effect that homosexuals should be con- man, it would seem to me that that is the firmed as being part of creation. Homno- inexplicable thing which makes a homo- sexuals existed at creation, they exist now, sexual. and they will exist when the world comes If it is claimed that these people can be to an end. No-one knows why they cured, then it is obvious some psychiatric exist, but the question is this: Do we re- process must take place to change a per- gard a person who behaves because he son's ego completely. I do not think the cannot help behaving that way-I will deal State has a right to do this. I do not think [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 585985

people have the right to put pressure on fact homosexuals. There is no question otherwise law-abiding citizens to take what that these. people do exist. It would be is known as that particular cure. I am a interesting to hear a great big lumbering little sick and tired of people referring to Victorian footballer who took a mark. 60 homosexuals as sick people. I would be Just yards from goal with only 30 seconds to go as sick and tired of my being referred to and went on to kick a goal which won the as a sick man if I had no chemical reaction game for his team, to admit that he to females and I could not get a girl, al- was also a homosexual. That would though I did not become a homosexual; be an interesting situation. It would also or if I had an overt reaction to women be interesting to hear a cricketer who had and they to me. It seems that it all has taken six or seven test wickets for a mere to do with the chemistry that one person 50 or 60 runs. and who had become a gives off for another. national hero stand up and say that he, Mr. Hartrey: Is that not very true of too, was a homosexuai. I say "interest- sickness? ing" not because I would like to see it Afr, R. L.. YOUNG: I do not know happen, not f or their sake or for my own whether or not that is true. I think that sake, but for the future embarrassment sickness is a biological suffering rather of similar people who are not homo- than anything to do with chemistry. sexuals. I want to talk about the oft-quoted However, I ask myself: If they are homo- suggestion that the homosexual is a per- sexuals why should they stand up and son who hangs around lavatories waiting admit it? In that -event they would be for little boys. Some of them do; there is lowered from Idols to "poofters". That is no question about that. On the other hand, what the average member of the public some heterosexuals also hang around would say-that he thought the person lavatories waiting for little girls. I do not concerned was a good sportsman but he know the percentage of homosexual attacks is only "one of them". on little boys or the attempts to soicit The Passage of this Bill will not change little boys around lavatories compared with that situation. I do not think the general the overall percentage of heterosexual public will become tolerant of people who attacks on little girls in the same environ- may have a problem. ment. I think it would be about the same. Mr. T. D. Evans:, Perhaps It is we who One thing must be made absolutely have the problem. clear; that is, that 1, and I think everyone 'who supports this legislation, believe it Mr. R. L. YOUNG: Well, I do not know. is just as abominable for a little boy to I think eve ryone has a problem of some be molested by a homosexual as it is for Sort. a little girl to be molested by what is Mr. T. D. Evans: We should look at commonly known as a "dirty old man". both sides. Perhaps they think we have The Criminal Code recognises such of- a problem. fences and now they are recognised under the Bill before us- Consequently I do not Mr. R. L. YOUNG: I am trying not to consider that we will have an upsurge of say that the group Luathe community who what is commonly called a sickness or are against this Bill have a Problem, or perversion sweeping the community as a that the people who are homosexuals have result of the passage of this legislation. a problem. This problem has been with As I said earlier, I put some people to us since man has been on earth, and it the test when last year members of Par- will be with us until he has left the earth. liament were invited to attend a showing Everyone has to examine the matter and of pornographic films. I asked those who ask himself, firstly, is the homosexual attended whether they, themselves, were doing any harm to any Individual? likely to become depraved and corrupted Secondly, is it wrong If what he is doing by what they had scen and their answer is taking place where It cannot possibly be was "No", but they expected that others offensive? Thirdly, will it harm the rest would be. of the community? We have to ask our- I find it hard to accept that with the selves those questions and if the answers passing of this legislation hundreds of are that there Is no problem on those people in the community will, in fact, be scores-on those three counts.-iet us agree tempted to take on something which that the time has arrived when we have normal heterosexuals naturally find totally simply to change the law so that this par- distasteful. it Is insulting to the rest of ticular type of person is no longer a, crimi- the community for one person to claim nal. that It will not happen to him, or to his People ask: What sense is there In chang- son, or to his brother, but it 'will certainly Ing the law anyway because the police do happen to somebody else. Unfortunately, not go along and burst into homes and that is the attitude which prevails. catch people in the act? I think that is The member for Subiaco also referred true. I have It on good authority, from to the number of sportsmen and promin- a lawyer, that in two cases of blackmail ent people in our community who are, in the police, in fact, acted in the most 5860 5860ASSEMBLY.] reasonable manner possible. Therefore it I hope that those who support the mea- can be taken for ranted that this law sure realise the gravity of the support will not, in fact, reduce the number of they are giving; I hope that with the charges normally laid with regard to passage of time we will find that this homosexuality. However, as I see the amendment to the Criminal Code was situation it is not fair for one person in absolutely necessary. I certainly trust that the community who may be a perfectly will Prove to be the case. In 100 years' reasonable fellow In other respects to be time some of the attitudes now taken to- considered a criminal in this regard be- wards homosexuals will surely be laughed cause of a law which was, passcd many at, just as many years ago people laughed years ago, and cur acceptance of the con- when it was stated that slavery was not tinuation of that law. Another person can necessary, and as people laughed at the commit all kinds of acts, and offend suggestion of other social reforms and said against all the laws that such action would reduce the stand- of God-according to ards of the community. if our present the good book-but still not be a criminal. attitudes are laughed at in the future it That seems to be totally unfair. will mean that this legislation was right. At some time during this debate, or at None of us wants to be laughed at, and some time in the future when debating this Parliament is not something to be this particular subject, I would like to laughed at either. hear somebody defend this law which has This legislation is not just a great big been in existence for so many years, not joke. It Is of great importance to homo- on the prejudices which we naturally feel, sexuals and we should have regard for not on the revulsion which we naturally the concept of justice which lies behind it. feel, and not on the fact that it just Is This Bill, which is just a piece of paper, not a nice thing to talk about, but on does not contain one abhorrent homo- the basic concepts of law and the basic sexual act. It contains a legal principle. precepts of justice, and on the basic atti- Obviously, the measure will pass this tude which people will adopt as a result House but Perhaps members in another of the passage of this Bill. place may consider what I have said. I support the Bill. I have been persuaded on many occa- sions by people who have put me in the MR. MENSAROS (Ploreat) [5.11 p.m.]: picture and explained where I have gone This is a question which arouses a tre- wrong, and I would be prepared to hear mendous amount of argument and any the other side. However, I have never member who is interested in it, from the heard it. I have heard discussions on this social-ethical, legislative, or any other matter, and read books and papers con- point of view, and who has studied the cerning it; however, I have not heard that subject, could possibly speak to it for a line taken at all. As I said, I have heard long time. That will not be my en- of the revulsion and the prejudices, and deavour because I am sure those who are that it Is not a nice thing to talk about; interested in this matter will know the but I have not heard anyone take the facts and arguments. I agree however argument to the end result so that the with the member for Wemnbley who said final committee, commission, or whatever that we should declare ourselves or. at organisation happened to be making the least, give reasons for the vote which we investigation, comes down and states that will cast. I disagree with the member for on the final evidence there is nothing to Wembley in that I understood him to do but accept the situation and say that say that we should explain our reasons if this particular legislation should be re- we vote differently from the way expected moved from the Statute book. of us by our party. I knc~w that the "compulsory" angle is Mr. Rt. L. Young: I said this would be an old joke but based on reaction one could expected of our party. Imagine that with the passage of this Mr. MENSAROS: I am sorry; I mis- Hill there would be a tendency to make understood what was said. I want to make homosexuality compulsory. If one took it absolutely clear that it is not expected much notice of the attitude of some people from any member from this side of the who write letters, and who hold fervent House-and I understand I can include meetings, one would assume there will be members of the Country Party in what I an upsurge in the commission of homoc- am saying-that he should vote one way sexual acts. I do not think anyone be- or the other. lieves that will be the true situation, and On this occasion we will adhere to the I do not think that those of us who are custom that this being a social-ethical heterosexuals will be persuaded to change matter it is for individual consideration our minds with the passage of this Bill. and an individual vote. Of course, I can I think it Is Probably more reasonable go further and emphasise that this and less hypocritical for us to say that we principle applies, in fact, to other matters hope we are right in supporting this Bill also which affect members from this side which has been introduced 'by the Attor- of the House with respect to the rule of ney-Genera]. the majority decision. If a member from [Wednesday. 5 December, 19731 5861 this side has disagreed with the majority tial law, by being silent about it-or the view of his party, and has cast his vote law states that something is criminal and in the other direction-and that has one shall not do it. happened in my short experience in this Mr. Taylor: That is not so. You can House-no action is or has been taken drink in your home or on licensed premises against him. For that reason, before I but you cannot drink in a public place. present my argument on which I will cast my vote, I must say I am amazed that Mr. MENSAROS: That is so. the Government took the view that this Mr. Taylor: It is quite comparable with should be a party Political Bill. I con- the points in the Hill. sider that to be wrong, and it is not worthy Mr. MENSAROS: No. It relates to two of our Parliament. different sets of circumstances. I come A party political measure is accepted by back to the Point that we do not know of members of that party who go along with any law which makes this gradation. it, because even though they might have a Mr. Hartrey: Yes we do. different opinion they feel that they have Mr. MENSAROS: I will listen to the to be loyal to their party. This is gener- member for Boulder-Dundas when he ally accepted by the public. speaks. The only way a community can This measure involves a matter from legally express its disapproval of certain which nobody should hide behind his actions or omissions is to make it an offence party. I wonder what the member for by law. Because that is so, the law is ex- Swan would do if this were not a party pressing-and in my opinion it should matter. I know the member for Swan. express-the scial-ethical and moral view whom I respect, has had a long experience of the governing body of the State which in this place but he is not exculpated by ought to be the majority view of the people voting in~ favour of something which does of te Sate. not suit his conscience just because his In a Muslim state it is lawful for a man party hnas taken a certain line on such a to have more than one wife because that serious matter. is the social-ethical and moral view of I wonder how the Premier feels, with that state which is embodied in the law, all his experience, at having to vote in a and there is nothing wrong with it. In a certain direction because of a majority Christian state it is not lawful for a man decision by Caucus. The attitude amazes to have more than one wife, and if he me and I do not think it is right. How- does have more than one wile he commits ever. that is for the Government to de- an offence. The law expresses that view cide: it is not our business. because this is a Christian State and those ethics are accepted by the majority of the The member for Wembley challenged all people and expressed by the Government, of us to give a reason-other than that the establishment, or the leadership- homosexuality was repulsive, not liked, or in the minority-for not voting for this whatever one likes to call it-of the State. legislation. I shall attempt to give such a I think that is right. reason, and I hope the member for Wem- When one goes back in history, there bley Mill accept it with the same respect are certain historical events about which as I accepted his view. we would not know but for the Statutes I will oppose this Bill but my opposition which have survived. Hammurabi's law, is not based on prudery or lack of under- which applied in the Middle East many standing; far from it. In a social-ethical thousands of years ago, is almost the only issue I will not go along with the argument document by which we can establish the that if a law cannot be or is not enforced, way of life of people in that place at that it should be removed from the Statute time, and their moral and ethical views. book. I am trying to explain my attitude In the criminal law of Hammurabi there in relation to a basic concept of law,' in are many interesting regulations from reply to the challenge of the member for which we can deduce what took place in Wembley. society and which actions were condemned by the leaders at that time. We have Statutes, which are the laws. There is not a hierarchy in the Statutes If we go from there somewhat ahead in whereby we say certain things are very history, we find that in certain countries commendable, certain things are less com- the right hand of a thief was chopped off. mendable, certain actions or omissions are We would not condone that today, but tolerated, other actions and omissions are this is an historical Proof that at that time not right, are perhaps to be despised, but the incidence of stealing was greater than are not criminal, and certain other actions the Government and the conmmity wish- or omissions are criminal. I am not sug- ed it to be, and it was therefore con- gesting we could not have such a hier- demned and became punishable in this archy but I do not know of any system of way, to prevent its occurrence. laws which does have it. I look at this Bill, by which the Govern- Therefore, we have only black and white. ment intends to change the law, in the Either the law permits something to be same way. From the questions I have done-in most cases, especially In crim- asked the Attorney-General It is quite 5862 5862ASSEMBLY.] obvious that there have been very few Mr. Hartrey: 1 will speak to It. Prosecutions and charges in relation to criminal actions of this kind, which, if the Mr. THOMPSON: This Bill should not Bill is Passed, will not be criminal . Ac- be a party political measure. cording to the answer the Attorney-General Mr. A. RL. Tonkin: Why not? We have gave me, the number of prosecutions is made it clear this is our policy. We will minute compared 'with the probable num- not run away from that. ber of homosexuals. It is therefore evi- Mr. O'Nell: Then you will have some- dent that the State did not want to prose- thing to say cute in most cases--probably rightly so- about it? because it was tolerant. Unless blackmail Mr. THOMAPSON: If this is a matter or violence occurred, the Government did of party political concern, should abortion not think it was worth while or just to law reform also be a matter of party pol- prosecute. itical concern? That does not mean we should take the Mr. A. RL.Tonkin: We have determined provisions out of the Statute so that from that this Is our policy. It is up to us to now on we do not condemn the action decide. You have decided otherwise. I socially or ethically, and therefore in law. respect that. This is my answer to the member for Mr. THOMPSON: I recall there was a Wembley. great deal of heartburning In the Labor The member for Wembley and another Patty recently when a decision on abor- member pointed out that adultery is not tion law reform was made at a Federal a crime. I have said in this House-and conference in Tasmania. I repeat it now-that -in many continental Mr. A. R. Tonkin: This is a different countries adultery is a criminal offence. subject. No prosecutions have ever resulted, but the argument Is exactly the same as that Mr. THOMPSON: It may be, but surely which I am now proposing in connection It is a matter for the individual conscience, with this Bill;, that is, they are Christian and in my view it should not be a party countries, they are against adultery, and political Issue. therefore they keep on the Statute book Mr. T. D. Evans: That is your view, not the law which creates it an offence, des- ours. pite many attempts to remove it, In order to demonstrate to the whole world the The SPEAKER: Order! social-ethical, and moral views of the Mr. THOMPSON: I do not wish to stir country. up members on the other side but I would I do not agree that the State can say, lie one or two of them to make a contri- "We condemn this action, although we bution to the debate on this issue because might be sorry for the people concerned, it is one which should prompt members to but we 'decriminalise' it." It can only be Indicate their personal points of view. said legally that we condemn the action if However, we see that the members it remains a criminal offence. If it is not opposite are regimented. They have made a criminal offence, we do not know what a party decision and no matter what their the attitude of the State Is, and can only personal attitudes towards this measure presume that it is condoned. may be, they are bound to support it. I I wil leave all the other Interesting will not pick them off one by one- arguments, but in response to the chal- Mr. T. D. Evans: What about picking lenge from the member for Wembley I have given my basic and most important off the provisions in the Bill? argument upon which I will vote against Mr. THOMPSON: -individually to de- the Bill. clare their attitude. I would say it is quite clear that a very high percentage of the MR. THOMPSON (Dartling Range) [5.25 members who sit opposite do not support P.M.]: I thought we might have had a this measure. speech or two from the other side of the House on a Bill of this nature. Mr. Hartrey: You can be very wrong. Mr. Hartrey: We want to listen to what Mr. THOMPSON: I do not think I you have to say first. would be very wrong at all. By contrast, Mr. THOMPSON: I think members we on this side of the House are not regi- opposite have had a great deal of oppor- mented and we are not told by the party tunity to hear what this side has to say, what to do. and I am sure the member for Boulder- Mr. Jones: No-one over that side has Dundas does not want to hear what 1, per- taken his coat off yet. sonally, have to say before he makes a contribution to the debate. Mr. Rushton:- We have more respect for the place than you have. Mr. O'Neil. Is the member for Boulder- Dundas going to speak to this Bill? The SPEAKER: Order! Mr. THOMPSON: Perhaps we might Mr. T. J. Burke: You are not allowed have an Indication by way of Interjection to. as to who will speak to the Bill1. The SPEAKER: Order! [Wednesday, 5 December. 1973] 563

Mr. THOMPSON: At least two mem- Mr. T. fl. Evans: I suggest that the bers have risen In their places today and member for Darling Range look at the indicated they intend to support the Bill. Police Act, and there he will find the They will still have their heads on tomor- answer to his question. row, which is more than could be said of the other side of the House if Government Mr. THOMPSON: Whatever the case. members expressed their Personal atti- prostitution is carried on and it Is an of - tudes. fence against the law. People are prose- cuted for it from time to time, and that Mr. A. R. Tonkin: Get on with the Bill. is a fact. Mr. O'Neil: You are making them Mr. Davies: No, it isn't. nervous. Mr. Hartrey: You are quite right: it Mr. Mailer: We have a policy and we is a fact. are obliged to abide by it. Mr. THOMPSON: Well, I now have Mr. THOMPSON: Would the member supporting me no less an authority than for Toodyay be prepared to rise later on the member for Houlder-Dundas. and tell us what his attitude Is? Mr. Davies: You have a look at the pro- Mr. Moiler: I strongly support the Bill. vision in respect of this. The SPEAKER: Order! Mr. THOMPSON: Despite what the Mr. THOMPSON: That is one Govern- Minister for Health may say. I have the ment member whose personal view we support of the member for Boulder- have. Dundas. who informs me that prostitution Mr. O'Neil: A speech by way of Inter- Is a crime. However, the fact that It is jection. a crime and that it occurs does not mean to say that we should suddenly "de- Mr. THOMPSON: The member for criminalise" It. It does not mean that we ',Wembley raised a point in respect of should say because we cannot stop it we some rather bawdy entertainment pro- will "decriminalise" it. vided at football clubs a few months ago, I have examined my conscience on the and he said that type of entertainment Is issue of homosexuality. Indeed, I have not viewed with any great concern by discussed the matter with a number of people in the community. I would chal- people. I have received a submission from lenge that. I believe that the majority a friend in my electorate who is a staunch of the people of our community abhor churchman. He was a member of a com- that behaviour. I feel sure the Premier mittee set up by his church to examine certainly would abhor it, because he is one this issue, and he has let mue have a copy who has declared his attitude on these of the submission put forward by the things in recent times. So I do not think committee. The committee concluded by it can necessarily be said that because supporting the Bill: but without going these things happen they are accepted by Into the various aspects of Its report, I society. It is true that they become the must say that I found flaws in its con- subject of Jokes and that one hears the tentions. I was not able to agree with matters raised in bars, but society does not the thinking of that committee on this condone that type of activity. matter. The member for Wembley made the I do have some regard for the Person point that this measure is not intended to In respect of whom it is said that he make something lawful: rather it is in- cannot help being what he is. The mem- tended to "decriminalise" something which ber for Wembley made the point that is already happening. We could extend these people are not sick: and others say that argument to other areas. For in- that it is a condition over which they stance, It is well known that prostitution have no control, and to that extent pro- is carried on within our State, but we bably it is an illness. If it is an illness, have seen no moves to "decriminalise" then I amn a little concerned about it. How- that practice. Probably Prostitution will ever, I believe that the majority of these continue for evermore, but that does not people are not suffering from something mean to say society must suddenly con- that cannot be controlled. In this regard done it simply because it is carried on. I discussed the matter with a psychiatrist. Mr. Davies: Prostitution is not a crime; who told me that in the main these people it is the paying for it that is the crime. resort to the argument that It is something Mr. THOMPSON: Is that so? they cannot control simply in an effort to appease their consciences. Mr. Davies: Once they Pay for it or Mr. Davies: Tell mue the name of that live off the earnings from it they are in psychiatrist: I would like to keep away trouble. from him. Mr. THOMPSON: Well, what about the Mr. THOMPSON: I will not tell the prostitute; what is she charged with? Minister his name. Mr. Davies: She is only charged with Mr. Davies: I will tell you what Dr. living off the earnings from it. Ellis has to say about it. [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. THOMPSON: I hope the Minister Mr. THOMPSON: No, I do not think he does, We now have another member who did, but our society has decided on a may rise in his place a little later to make standard of behaviour, and laws have been a contribution to the debate. Before this made accordingly. matter is over I am sure we will have had Mr. B. T. Burke: statements from many people. But they are often changed, aren't they? Mr. Davies: Call for the files, as you Mr.- THOMPSON: They are changed, usually do when you think you can get up to mischief. yes. Mr. B. T. Burke: Because the behaviour The SPEAKER: Order! changes, doesn't it? Mr. THOMPSON: What does the Min- Mr. THOMPSON:, Has the behaviour ister mean to convey by that? changed to such an extent that suddenly Mr. Davies: He means that you call for we must change the law to make legal the files when You think you can gain something which has been illegal? advantage by doing so. Mr, O'Neil:- Regardless of whether or not it is proved that the behaviour has The SPEAKER. Order! The Minister will keep order. changed? Mr. THOMPSON: That is right; there Mr. THOMPSON: I believe that our is no indication that suddenly society is Creator did not intend human beings to prepared to0 regard hornosexuality as a carry on in this way. I believe it is a com- pletely natural act. It is an unnatural act. I op- unnatural act and it is not one pose the Bill. that the law should suddenly condone. I have sympathy for people who genuinely Mr. O'Neil: It is still referred to in this cannot control their instincts in this re- Bill as an unnatural act. gard, but I would hope that medical science is such that it may be able to MR. E. H. M.L LEWIS (Moore) F5.40 overcome that tendency. p.m.): Judging by the number of Inter- Mr. T. D. Evans: Would you put a re- jeetLons from the Government side, It Is formed drunk to work in a brewery in the quite obvious that some members have hope that it would cure him? Xalrly strong, and I would hope worth- while, views on this very Important social Mr. THOMPSON: No, I would not. question. I feel the House is the poorer Mr. O'Neil: Surely if he is reformed he for not having heard the views of some could work anywhere. members opposite who will obviously sup- port the Bill. I find myself In some Mr. THOMPSON: As a matter of fact, difficulty in regard to it, I listened very I know aLreformed drunk who is a pub- carefully to the member for Sublaco. He lican, and he is doing a great job. analysed the measure very fully and dealt Mr. T. D. Evans: Working under great with various aspects of it by advancing odds. arguments both for and against. I think he made a worth-while contribution to Mr. THOMPSON: Yes, he is: but he has the debate- mastered his problem. Mr. T. D. Evans: I agree. Mr. O'NelI: He is probably the better for it. Mr. E. H. M. LEWIS: -and he con- cluded by saying that he would support Mr. THOMPSON: Yes. I believe that a the Bill. If I recall correctly he said that person who may be afflicted to the extent in his view there is no moral issue in- that he feels compelled to practise homo- volved. If I have misquoted him, I apolog- sexuality could have his condition over- Ise. On the other hand, the member for come by medical science. I know of a case Narrogin said that he felt this is a distinct in which a person has intercourse with moral issue, and on those grounds he op- animals. That is a grotesque sort of thing posed the Bill. even to think about, but it happens. However. I do not find the issue as Should we take the argument a little simple as that. I think although there further and say, "WVell, that happens in might be clear shades of white or black private and these people are not harming there is a certain grey area. I am aware others, so we will no longer consider it an that attitudes change and I know that the offence"? Should we accept this as a question of homosexuality is one we have normal act and amend the law so that it is always looked upon with a great deal of not an offence? I believe we cannot do abhorrence and disgust. We have felt that that. We cannot suddenly accept as nat- the people who indulge in this practice ural. things that are completely foreign are beyond the pale. I believe the Prem- to human nature. I believe our Creator ier held that view. did not intend people to act In this way. I know, too, that many years ago people Therefore. I indicate that I oppose the Bill. who suffered from some mental disability Mr. Hartrey: Do you believe that our were confined to what we used to know Creator made you and me to be his then as a lunatic asylum, and were re- gaolers or his hangmen? garded as being mad. Even their close [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 5865 relatives were anxious to forgct about public reaction to it and ascertain whether them once they were placed In a lunatic there is a widespread desire for some re- asylum, Of course, over the years our form in this direction. We should do that attitude has changed and we now look to enable the matter to be given considera- upon People who have mental problems tion in some future session of Parliament, as suffering from an illness for which maybe next year. they may be treated, We know that many such people are rehabilitated and again If we amended the Criminal Code as take their place in society. proposed In the Bill, and then subsequently found we had made a mistake, It would I think the same attitude applies to not be easy to rectify the position. It is many other illnesses. So when this Bill much wiser for us to take a little time was presented I asked myself. "Well, what and to make haste a little slowly. Al- are we going to do? Are We going to though I am not violently opposed to the recognise an immoral practice?" I must Bill, all In all caution dictates that I vote confess that my first reaction was that It is an immoral practice and that I should against it at this stage to enable further vote against the Bill on those grounds. consideration to be given to it, because Hove-.er, I am not so sure. I have asked I am not convinced that the measure is myself, "Is this a disease that can be warranted. treated?" Having listened this afternoon to some of the learned members who MR. HARTREY (Boulder-Dundas) [5.47 have researched this matter I am not p.m.]: I hold In my hand a publication satisfied that this is even a disease that which is familiar to all members in this may be cured. I must confess that I have House. We know it as Hansard, but if we look at the publication we find its not researched the Wolfenden report and official title is different and that Hans ard other literature which is available on this is only the subtitle. The publication is subject; but I intend to do so for my officially entitled Parliamentary Debates; further enlightenment, even if it Is too and our discussions in this House are de- late in respect of this Bill. bates, and it is very right that they should However, I am not satisfied now that be. homosexuality is even a disease that may be cured. I think it is more like some- This Is an assembly for the communica- thing that one is born with, just as some tion of Ideas, the conflict of Ideas, and People are born left-handed or with some discussion on the conflict of ideas. I do other particular trait. I do not know not know why members of the opposition whether homosexuality offends society, or have continually rebuked the Government whether the easing of the Criminal Code, for not stepping into an argument until as this Hill is designed to do, will en- there was something to debate. courage a practice that some consider to I have listened with interest to four be a bad practice. speeches, and now I think we have some- So. all in all, I am afraid I cannot con- thing to which we can reply in connection tribute much to the debate other than to with the subject matter of this proposed say that in my view there is not a great amendment to the Criminal Code. First deal of urgency in regard to this matter. I of all, I shall deal with the soliloquy Of the have not yet heard any evidence to the member for Subiaco. He told us he was contrary from the Attorney-General when talking to himself in order to clarify his he introduced the Bill last Thursday, or ideas, and to come to a conclusion on the from other speakers today. way he should vote. To that extent I I have not received any letters at all admire him for having his ideas clarified. urging support of or opposition to the Bill. He made a statement which was quite I am aware that a number of churches misleading, although I am sure he did -uhas the Church of England, the not intend to mislead. He gave us to Methodist Church, the Presbyterian understand that because there were 98 Church, the Congregational Church, and cases of Indecent dealing with girls under the Council of Churches--have all ex- 16 years of age in a certain period of Pressed some view which might be con- time, and in the same period there were sidered as being in favour of the passage 39 cases of indecent dealing with boys of the Bill. However, that in itself does under 14 years of age, therefore the pro- not necessarily convince me. portion of homosexuality to heterosexuallty I am not satisfied that this social Issue Is approximately in the ratio of 39 to 98. is of such urgency as to require us to Of course no such deduction can logically spend a great deal of time during the be drawn from those facts, because closing stages of this Parliament in de- although the Criminal Code does provide bating it. As far as I am aware there very severe penalties for indecent dealing is with girls under 16 years of age, they are no urgency. very rarely put into operation. The usual I am suggesting, but I am not optimistic charge is a charge of aggravated assault on about the acceptance of this suggestion, a female; I have no doubt at all this is a that this legilation be allowed to ie on misuse of a Statute, but it is regularly the notice paper so that we can obtain done. 1197) 5866 [ASSEMBLY.]

A young man of 17 to 19 years of age this Parliament which makes the laws of might go out with a girl under 16 years the State should know how those laws are of age. He might not go so far as to being applied. have intercourse with her, but he might Although the member for Subiaco quoted indecently or unlawfully deal with her. certain figures in all honesty and sin- For that he can be charged with the cerity, the deductions he endeavoured to offence of aggravated assault on a female. draw from them were not at all applicable For such an offence he is dealt with fairly to reality. leniently in the Children's Court; a person committing that offence is rarely tried be- I now turn to another matter which fore a judge and jury. No criminal pro- has been raised by the member for ceeding is taken under the particular Floreat. He says if a law is not being chapter of the Code which deals with in- enforced it is not an argument against decent acts. The Criminal Code charge the retention of that law. That is his against a man for having sexual inter- point of view. He supports that conten- course with a girl under tion by the proposition that Australia is 16 years of age is a Christian country; that Christianity does unlawful carnal knowledge of a female, not approve of certain conduct and re- and this offence is punishable by five gards such as being immoral; and years' imprisonment with or without whip- there- ping. fore a law that is put on the Statute book in the interests of a Christian community In these days this Is such a common ought not to be revoked even if it is not offence Involving girls under 16 years of being enforced. age that the Commonwealth Government As an actual technicality of the law, is offering a bonus for It, so that any girl Australia has never been a Christian under 15 years of age who becomes preg- country; and neither has the United King- nant will receive a special allowance. At dom. That has been determined by the this stage of our civilisation it does not judicial committee of the House Of Lords appear very wise to insist on a penalty of in the case of Bowman versus the Secular five years with or without flogging for a Society, reported at page 1 of the 1916 male offender in the same circumnstances. All England Reports. Of course such a, charge is not usually It was not a unanimous decision. Three laid; what happens is that the youth is of the lords said that Christianity was not charged-again by a misuse of a Statute part of the law of England, and two of the -with contributing to the neglect of a lords said it was. However, the majority girl under 16 years of age, and sometimes ruled. That is a fact. By that I do not under 18 years of age. If the girl is under mean that Australia or the United King- the age of 18 years, but over 16 years, It dom Is not entitled to call itself a Chris- is not an offence under the Criminal Code tian country. All I am saying is that to have sexual Intercourse with her. It there has never been a theocratic Govern- is an offence under the Criminal Code ment in the United Kingdom in the sense and under the Child Welfare Act for a of government by a particular religion, male person to have Intercourse with a and very fortunately so, because theocracy girl who is under 16 years of age. In is one of the most undesirable forms of many cases where the girl is under 16 government. years of age the young man who is the offender Is charged with "contributing to The SPEAKER: The honourable member the neglect of a child'. should tie his remarks to the contents of the Bill. It seems facetious that a girl who, in the course of six months, might have had Mr. HARTREY: This subject was raised sexual intercourse with eight or nine in debate, and I am debating it. young men should be declared to be a The SPEAKER: I would point out to neglected child. Some people might re- the honourable member that we are de- gard her as being overpatrontsed, rather bating the Bill. than neglected! I have put up this argu- Mr. HARTREY: We are debating the ment without success on about 10 occasions Bill. The member for Fioreat debated in cases of young men charged with con- am merely contra- tributing to the neglect of a child, but I that subject, and I have not had explained to me by a magis- dicting what he has said. trate or a court the reason for the rejec- Mr. B. T. Burke: You are entitled to. tion of the argument. Mr. HARTREY: AS the honourable It may be that the ninth young man In member has said, I am entitled to do the queue is charged with having contri- that. buted to the neglect of the child, when I return to the argument as to whether from a practical point of view she has a law which is not being enforced should been a neglected child after the first two be retained on the Statute book of West- or three occasions of having sexual Inter- ern Australia just because in certain course. Under the existing law, anomalies European countries there still exist laws such as these are created. It Is well that against adultery although they have no (Wednesday, 5 December, 197SJ386 5867

intention of enforcing them. In this re- Mr. HARtTHEY: What I said was my gard it would not be a bad idea. to recollection of what the honourable mem- look at what the present law is. ber stated. My interpretation was that Having read the proposed amendment the honourable member was giving the and having looked at the law, I am draw- House the impression that these people Ing some conclusions. That Is what we were no more sick than I am; and that are debating. 1 refer to chemical reactions and chemical attrac- section 181 of tions, and so forth, were not to be related. the Criminal Code which is as follows- to naturalness or unnaturalness. Perhaps Any person who- I was wrong in drawing that impression (1) Has carnal knowledge of any from the speech of the honourable mem- person against the order of ber. nature; or Mr. Rt. L. Young: I want to clear up The member for Subiaco should mark the point that I did not say it was a those words, because he says they are ob- natural act. scure and lawyers cannot understand them. To continue with section 181- Mr. HARTHEY: I accept the withdrawal (2) Has carnal knowledge of an of the honourable member, without any animal: or comment from mie at all. (3) Permits a male person to I agree with one comment made by the have carnal knowledge of member for Subiaco; that extramarital him or her against the order adultry is frequently much more destruc- of nature; tive of human happiness than any one of the unnatural offences about which we are Is guilty of a crime, and is liable to talking. r am not prepared to deduce from imprisonment with hard labour for that conclusion what the member for Sub- fourteen years, with or without iaco wants to deduce; namely, that it whipping. should therefore be made a criminal of- This Is the section of the Act which the fence. This does not follow. Dill proposes not to abolish entirely, but If a Statute is not being enforced and to modify in an important respect. is not in keeping with the general public I say with all deference to the Almighty sentiment it ought not to remain on the that I am a Christian, but how anyone Statute book. But if it Is being used, and who professes to be a Christian could it can be used, to do great harm, it should support the continued presence of that be torn right out of the Statute book. That enactment on the Statute book of Western is what I say at the moment. Australia in 1973 1 find difficulty to under- If mepmbers would look at section 393 stand, or to reconcile with my view of of the Criminal Code they will find it deals what is a Christian. with a subject that is technically described as "extorting money by threats"; this is I do not propose to be theocratic in any the offence commonly called blackmail. sense, and I am sure there are better Clause 2 of the Bill seeks to amend sec- Christians and more sincere Christians tion 181 which deals with unnatural of- than I in this House; but according to fences; because that section is an admnir- mny lights and to the best of my ability I able means by which criminals of a low have come to the view that this particular type-and I am referring to double-dyed Statute is inconsistent with my nation of scoundrels who are blackmailers--are thus what Christianity is all about. able to blackmail persons who have the I say in all sincerity that I disagree misfortune to be addicted to what I still with what the member for Wembley said: say are uninatural offences. There should that this offence is not unnatural. He not necessarily be any reproach to the said that it came with creation, and it is persons so addicted with what may be a a feature of creation. He also said that congenital misfortune. we have grown up with creation and we It may be a misfortune that has been have to acknowledge this offence as inflicted on their tender minds as child- normal. I cannot wear that contention ren by the unhappy circumstances in at all. I agree with the words of the which they were brought up. The domin- Statute as far as the definition of theof ant mother may have been a contributing fence goes; that it is "against the order cause to that type of psychology in the de- of nature". velopment of the child; but I think a lack of rapport between the father and the Mr. H. L. Young: I did not say it was child is more likely to create such a cir- a natural act at all. I said the Council cumstance. Thus we find that children of Churches pointed out that homosexu- who are congenitally not lacking-in ailty should be affirmed as part of crea- chromosomes or the like-can be unhappy tion. I said that homosexuality has upbringing become homosexuals, as was existed since creation, and would prob- mentioned by the member for Subiaco. ably continue to exist until mankind no But whatever the position, surely to longer remained on this earth. I did not goodness it is far worse in these days to say it was a normal act, and one which enforce the sort of law which existed and should be accepted. was thoroughly and solidly supported by 5868 5883ASSEM3ELY.]

public sentiment in the days of Sing licly It would be remiss of me if I did not Henry VIII when coiners were boiled in express myself during the course of the oil; and the offence with which we are debate. dealing was called the abominable crime of law. Naturally, any I do, however, find it difficult to recon- buggery at common cile the Government's attitude and the offenders were drastically punished and interjections by Government members severe penalties imposed. which have given such strong official sup- This, of course, was because of the sav- port to the measure, with some of the age and barbaric attitude of the commun- comments that have been made over the ity of the day; and our present legislation last few years and the last few months. is a projection of that savage and barbar- ous psychology. I certainly will not waver Mr. A. R. Tonkin: It is progressive edu- on this point, although I know there are cation. cases in which different points of view are expressed. I have had homosexuals ap- Sir CHARLES COURT: So we find our- proach me and write to me. to point out selves presented with a piece of legislation that they are as much entitled to call their which most of us thought was a dead opinions and way of life natural as I am letter; particularly after the comments that to say the same about mine. But I will were made by the Premier. Now, however, not have that. It is just not natural. The we are Presented with this legislation as whole matter is one of common sense. One being a solid piece of party policy. only has to be a human being and have a Mr. J. T. Tonkin: I heard John Gorton certain degree of rationality to realise that speak in the Federal Parliament and he such an attitude is not natural. It is ob- -convinced me that this was the only course vious that man's sexual organs were not to take. designed for this Purpose; it is against the law of nature; nobody can argue Sir CHARLES COURT: Now I have against that. I certainly would not listen heard everything! to such an argument, because I think it is stupid. Mr. T. D. Evans: And Doug Anthony On the other hand it does not follow also voted for it. that if an act is not natural, persons Sir CHARLES COURT: we find the Pre- should be treated as criminals because mier doing these fancy steps, John Gor- they do it when it is something beyond ton is blamed for everything. lie was first their control. There Is no necessity to blamed for the submerged lands legislation, draw such a ridiculous conclusion, and and now he is being blamed for the intro- there is no necessity to give way to the duction of the measure before the House. prejudices we have inherited from the time of Henry VIII. Several members Interjected. So with the best conscience in the world The SPEAKER: Order!I -though I do not suggest for one mom- ent thAt my conscience is any better than Sir CHARLES COURT: It was a most anybody else's-I have no hesitation what- extraordinary Party attitude on a matter ever in supporting the Bill. I do not even which so far as I am concerned is essen- think of it as a progressive measure; it tially a piece of social legislation, one on would have been Progressive about 25 which people should vote according to years ago? I feel it has almost missed the their consciences. bus, but it is better late than never. Mr. Hartrey: It is for me, anyhow. I do not congratulate the Government on taking a bold and pioneering step in Sir CHARLES COURT: If the honour- bringing in this legislation after three able member, as a. matter of conscience, years; it could have been brought in alter votes for the Bill I would not object: I three months. However, the measure has would not complain. the been brought in and I congratulate I rise to speak, not as Leader of the Government for introducing it. Opposition, but as the member for Ned- I also congratulate members opposite lands-as an individual. I have said to our who will vote for it, and I commend the people that it is a matter for their con- attitude of the honourable member who sciences, and they can vote as they wish. has not yet made up his mind. Even the This is social legislation and People should attitude of those who have made up their be permitted to vote according to their minds and have decided not to support the consciences; and this Is the message I have legislation Is excusable, because this is conveyed to the members of my party. their right and even their duty; but in my humble opinion they are not as pro- Mr. T. D. Evans: I'll bet you have told gressive as those who are going to support them how you are going to vote. the legislation. Sir CHARLES COURT: Of course, I have, but they winl still vote as they want SIR CHARLES COURT (Nedands-- to. Leader of the Opposition) t6.07 p.m.): I rise to speak briefly to this Bill because Mr. T. D. Evans: Why did You tell In view of the comments I have made pub- them? [Wednesday, 5 December, 19731 5869

Sir CHARLES COURT: I would remind Subiaco who, as a result of his professional the Attorney-General that his people have knowledge, made it very clear that there indicated and he has insisted that this were some people who for various reasons is a party vote so far as his Government is beyond their control were in the situation concerned. of being homosexuals and that this had nothing to do with an immoral situation Mr. T. D. Evans: it Is our policy; we at all; it was just something that happen- believe in it. ed. But he said there were very few such Sir CHARLES COURT: I do, however, people. That was the point that came want to make one point very clear, be- out to me. The other higher percentage cause the question of pairs has been raised quoted had no relationship to that aspect In connection with the Bill. I think It Is at all. This is where the social question fair that members should understand that comes in. we cannot have pairs on a Bill such as Mr. T. D. Evans: He said there were up this. to 100,000 in Australia. Mr. T. D, Evans: Why did the member for Subiaco use more than the time norm- Sir CHARLES COURT: Not of the genu- ally allowed ine type to which he referred. He said to a private member? strongly there were very few in the cate- Sir CHARLES COURT: Because hie hap- gory. He was explaining the Position from pened to be the first opposition speaker. a professional and a technical point of Mr. T. D. Evans: He used the time as view. representing the Opposition. I could have compassion for these Sir CHARLES COURT: That has noth- people, and I hope we all can; but I Ing to do with it. As the first speaker think it is important that we get our from the Opposition side, following on the facts straight and our values right; other- Minister's introductory speech, he has wise we will finish up with an emotive limitless time. I1want to make the posit- issue which has no relationship to the Ion of pairs very clear so that there will real problem at all be no repercussion later. The Bill before us at the present time The Whip approached me and asked achieves nothing for the people who claim me what was to happen in regard to pairs. they want to be taken out of bondage, as I said that we could not pair our absent it were. members in the pairs list that was shown to me, Mr. T. D. Evans: Justify that state- I would like to get the Premier's re- ment. action, because In a case like this we can- Sir CHARLES COURT: A gimmicky not record pairs, particularly in the case of phrase has been invented in this law. I members who are absent. refer to it as such for good reason. This Mr, O'Neil: We could pair with one gimmicky phrase has been publicised a another on this! great deal. Sir CHARLES COURT: I would like to Mr. Hartrey: You are good at gimmicky come back to the point, because I do not phrases. want there to be any misunderstanding Mr. T1. D. Evans: You are a master of about this matter. It Is not possible to pair gimmicky phrases. members as Ayes or Noes on a Bill of this nature, because I am not in a position, the Sir CHARLES COURT: It is a pity the Whip Is not In a position and, indeed, no- Attorney-General does not take this Bill body is In a position to say how one of a little more seriously. the absent members would vote. Mr. T. D. Evans: I am taking it seri- If one of these members has made priv- ously. ate arrangements that is another matter: Sir CHARLES COURT: I have read the it is his own affair. I want to avoid any speech made by the Attorney- General and misunderstanding later and I do not want in my opinion it Is not a worthy con- there to be any allegation that pairs have tribution to the debate. It was the been withdrawn, because it is just not Attorney-General's responsibility to ad- possible to Pair members who are absent; dress himself to the Bill and present his it would be like pairing an Independent. observations; but he dealt in emotive The Government has introduced a rath- phrases and did nothing whatever to jus- er extraordinary situation where we have tify the legislation. a Government party Bill on the one hand, The gimm icky phrase to which I have where there is a disciplined vote; while on referred and which seems to have been the other hand we have People who are taken up throughout Australia says free to vote as they wish, when a division "1committed in private and both that per- Is taken. son and the person with whom the act is Having dealt with that aspect I would committed consent to the act and have like now to get onto some comments on attained the age of eighteen years". the Bill itself. So far as this problem is In those circumstances just what prose- concerned I suppose the best case against cution could there be? What does this the Bill was made out by the member for Bill do for them anyhow? 5870 [ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. T. D. Evans: It removes the threat Government and others. I cannot see of blackmail to start with. where anyone has sought to persecute Sir CHARLES COURT: It would be in- them. teresting to see a situation where we had There must be an element of good sense consenting males--one of 21 years of age in the administration of the law. I know and the other aged 17 years and 10 that members of the legal profession months. The Attorney-General did not always want pure law spelt out In words try to remove that from the Criminal Code. that are Incontestable. Sometimes It is He draws the line at 17 years and 10 not a bad policy to have a law based on months, or even 17 years and 11 months. common sense, not only in its wording The person then reaches 18 years when of but in its administration. course he becomes an adult; and I accept that, in view of the laws we have passed. Mr. T. D. Evans: The Law Society has asked for this measure. Sitting suspended from 6.15 to 7.30 p'm. Sir CHARLES COURT: The Govern- Sir CHARLES COURT: Prior to the mnent's efforts to try to force this measure suspension I was commenting on the Bill through this session; the use of this sort and, in particular; proposed new section of wording; and the publicity which has 184B. In that section is a phrase which, been given to this matter will, I believe, I believe, has become something of a gim- react against the very people that the mick. I refer to the words- Government Professes to want to protect. ..If the act is committed in private The publicity has blown this matter up and both that person and the person In the public's mind and I want to saLy with whom the act Is committed con- here and now that it will not change the sent to the act and have attainbd the community's attitude. On the contrary, age of eighteen years. it will aggravate it. I instanced two cases; namely, one of a Mr. Moiler: That is a ridiculous claim. Person of 21 years of age and another of The Government has not publicised this a Person aged 17 years and 10 months. proposal; we have played it low key. It Even though there may be consent between is not a matter which warrants great pub- People of such ages and the act was in licity. Private, under the measure as it is worded Sir CHARLES COURT: Some of us have this would be a criminal offence. The had the experience of being away at a war. legislation is inconsistent to a tremendous Certain attitudes are adopted in the ranks extent. as to what is acceptable and what is not. Mr. T. D. Evans: Nonetheless, one must It is amazing how troops arrive at a cer- draw the line somewhere, tain standard of conduct, which may not be in accordance with the written law but Sir CHARLES COURT: One must draw is based on good sense. This happens the line, but the fact is that this blows up when one is dealing with people of differ- in stark relief the anomaly when some- ent personality types, and so on. one sets out to amend the law. Mr. Mailer interjected. Mr. T. D). Evans: You can apply this to many forms of legislation. Sir CHARLES COURT: I ask the mem- ber for Toodysy to listen and to have his Mr. Hartrey: Does not the honourable say later on. Those of us who experi- member approve of the age Of Consent? enced war service know personally that Mr. O'Neil: It Is 16 for a woman, I this issue was something on which the understand. average soldier had very strong views and he drew his own sharp line on this issue, Sir CHARLES COURT: I am not ques- for good reason. These fellows were drawn tioning the definition of an adult. The from all walks of life, but they regarded marginal note refers to an adult and the this as a very important social question and wording of the provison refers to a Person one of basic morals. I hate to think we who has attained the age of 18 years. I will break down this standard of morals am not questioning the division between because I believe this Is a moral and social a minor and an adult. question. Mr. Hutchinson: The English Act still I know there is room for difference. states 21 years. Some people say that things have changed and it is necessary to go with the times. Mr. O'Neil: The 1967 Act does. I do not think we need to change our Sir CHARLES COURT: I am trying to attitudes on certain issues. Once this per- make the point that this law would do missiveness is allowed, the pack of cards nothing for the really unfortunate few- will begin to collapse. the small number who are really homo- It has been said that if this law is sexuals. I do not know where the law passed it will remove the feeling of guilt. has sought to Persecute these People. I "The feeling of guilt" is an oft-quoted can find no evidence from the questions phrase. Itask: From whom? Is it the small asked and the information given by the number in connection with whom the (Wednesday, 5 December, 19731 575871 member for Subiaco, in his professional thing and is normal. It is not normal. way, gave us an explanation earlier to- However, many people try to claim it is day? This is the small number of genuine normal. cases. The great mass of people do not Mr. Hartrey: Of course, it is not normal. come into the category referred to by the honourable member. Surely we do not Sir CHARLES COURT: Doubtless the want to remove the feeling of guilt from member for Boulder-Dundas has received the People who are not genuine cases? letters similar to those which I have re- Certainly let us show compassion and have ceived. The correspondents argue that it understanding in respect of the small is normal and desirable. Of course, one group to which the member for Subiaco must deal with each case on its merits. But referred. I would be the first to want to I will not accept that homosexuality is show some tolerance. I believe their future natural, normal, or desirable. is in entirely different hands and cannot If we seek to legislate in this form I be covered by any legislation that can be believe we will break down moral stand- passed by this Parliament. Let us look at ards. We will set a bad example and will experience when we start to try to legislate say, for all practical purposes, that there to achieve what this measure purports to is nothing wrong when in fact we know achieve; namely to remove the feeling of there is very much wrong with homiosex- guilt. uality. It is simply not natural. Of course, we feel sorry and show com- The moment we do this we remove the passion for those people who have a, built- protection from certain people. I refer to in urge which is beyond their control. We a young man who has reached the age of, can only hope the medical profession and say, 16, 17, or 18 and probably for the others will be able to do something about first time is going to start drinking away their particular cases. f rom the discipline of his family. There are some homes which still have a little Mr. Hartrey: Meanwhile leave it to the discipline in their families. That young gaoler! man will start to drink away from that Sir CHARLES COURT: My understand- discipline and he will meet some of these ing is that a good deal of common sense undesirable people. If it is ingrained into has prevailed in connection with this mat- him that homosexuality is against the law, ter. The genuine cases, so far as can be I believe it would be something to help ascertained from the answers given in the him hang on and do the right thing. How- Parliament, do not appear to have been ever. if we, as a Parliament, say it is not victimised, pilloried, or embarrassed. Their a criminal offence-or an offence of any main embarrassment has come from kind-that young man has lost something people who are right outside the arm of to which he would otherwise cling. the law. What we are seeking to do to- I would like to illustrate this in another night will not protect them in any way. way. I am sure many members will recall This legislation will only highlight the the time when scientology was a great subject. There have been one or two refer- Problem. People came to us with the sad- ences in the Press in the last few days dest of sad tales and gave us evidence of which have virtually published certain the treatment they had received. Ap- meeting places of homosexuals. Will not proaches were made to members on both the position becomne worse? Let us imagine sides of the House. Eventually we legis- the hoodlums. Where will they go? Pass- lated to ban scientology. We were told it ing this law will not relieve the people we would be difficult to legislate on a basis profess to want to assist if we take any that would be watertight but we decided notice of what the Government has stated. to go ahead with the best form of law I come back to the point that it is hard which could be drafted at the time. It is for us on this side to understand and common knowledge that the police and follow how the Government has been able others thought the legislation was so loose, to change its mind in such a short time. in terms of pure law, that it would be pos- I read the utterances of the Premier in sible to drive a horse and cart through it. August, 1972, when he said he could not Nonetheless it wiped out the deplorable see this legislation being introduced. Prior state of affairs which had existed. to that the Premier said it made him ill Why did it have this effect? It was be- to think about it. cause some people knew that the legisla- Mr. Moiler: What alternative would you tion had been passed by the Parliament propose? and that the practice of scientology was intended to be outside the law. It gave Sir CHARLES COURT: There is no need them something to cling to and it stopped at all to change the present situation. them from participating In it. Can the member for Toodyay tell me anyone who is being victimised by the The Government has the numbers in law? Even with the measure which has this House and, by virtue of this, it looks been brought before the Parliament, this as if we will be legislating in the manner will be a criminal off ence for a person proposed tonight. If we do this I believe aged 17 years and 10 months, but it will we are virtually saying to young people in not be such an off ence for a person aged particular that homosexuality is not a bad 19 or 20. 5872 5872[ASSEMBLY.]

Mr. Moiler: You are saying you are I do not intend to take up a great deal happy with things as they stand? of the time of the House, but I must say The SPEAKER: Order! that I believe sufficient time has been spent In debating the Bill. Like Uie Leader of Sir CHARLES COURT: I am saying that the Opposition 1. too, made some com- this measure will not correct anything. ments about the proposed legislation to the Mr. Moiler: You have spoken for 20 Press. minutes and said nothing. Mr. Davies: Little Sir Echo! The SPEAKER: Order! Mr. McPHARLIN: My comments appear- Sir CHARLES COURT: I do not know ed in The West Australian and, for this what is biting the member for Toodyay. He reason, I feel obliged to speak. I indicate seems to have a thing about the Bill. In that I still have exactly the same attitude fact, every member on the Government as that which I expressed In the Press. I do side seems uneasy about It. They are not Intend to support the measure but. uncomfortable in that it has been brought of course, my party members are free to before the H-ouse as a Government Bill. I vote as they wish on the matter. am sure the Ministers would have been I concur with what the member for much happier had a back-bencher intro- Moore had to say because I am sure that duced the measure, as a private member's members of this Chamber would have Bill. In that way, members on the other liked more time to study the Wolfcnden side could have voted as they wished. report and also, perhaps, the Kinsey Mr. Harman: You would have criticised report. us had we done that. Mr. T. D. Evans: The Wolfenden report Mr. A. R. Tonkin: We are not frightened has been available since 1965. to stand up for our policies. The Mr. McPHARLIN: There is pressure on SPEAKER: Order! us to do so many things. Sir CHARLES COURT: The Minister Mr. Davies: This came out eight years has not told us why this has become ago. policy. He gave an emotive speech, con- sisting of emotive phrases, but he gave no Mr. Hartrey: I know where the pressure reason why it would be a desirable social comes from. reform to pass the legislation. This mea- Mr. McPHARLIN: This matter was not sure will not achieve anything for the given a high priority. There were other people who are genuinely disadvantaged. more Important matters to follow up. The I am referring to the people who have a Government could have left this Bill on genuine problem which is beyond their the notice Paper to give members the op- control. However, it will make it easier portunity to study the reports available. for the "baddies". It will make it very made by the member for much easier for them. It will be well- The suggestion~ nigh impossible to catch or prosecute them, Moore was a sensible one-the debate because they will seek the protection which should have been adjourned and we would is afforded under new section 184B. have saved a great deal of time. Having heard what members of the One of the points made by the member Opposition have had to say on the matter for Subiaco, is quite relevant. I might I hope the Government will have another mention that this point was also made to look at this measure. I do not know why a committee of our party when we dis- it is necessary to force the measure cussed this matter with a representative through when the pressure of other busi- of C.A.M.P. We were told that some people ness is so great. The Government is treat- are unfortunately born this way, and they ing this as an urgent measure at a time do not know about it until the time of when it is under pressure to deal with puberty. It then hits them fairly hard, real matters of urgency on the notice and they are afraid to let their families Paper. However, the Government knows know. They lead a life of suffering, and it its own business and has seen fit to bring is very hard for them. I believe this does the matter forward. We are leaving this happen and that some people are entirely to the consciences of our own genuinely affected in this way. members. They are free to vote as they The member for Subiaco, made the point think fit. The position regarding pairs is that there are not a great many people in understood, because I have discussed this this category. Like others. I have given with the Premier. Pairs will not be thought to this type of information and applicable because of the peculiar situation. perhaps my attitude would be a little more I oppose the measure. flexible if I had had more time to study the matter. If members had been afforded MR. MCePHARLIN (Mt. Marshall) E7.3 the opportunity to indulge in research and p.m.]: I Intend to be brief in my remarks. to study the reports, we would have had a To some extent, it is wasting the time of greater understanding of the Bill. I am the House for us to be debating a Bll] of afraid I am not completely convinced this nature when we have so many about the merits of it at this stage, and I measures on the notice paper which are wish to indicate that I do not propose to far more urgent than the one before us. vote in favour of the measure. [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 587387

The member for Subiaco and the mem- know that we were to debate this Bill. ber for Boulder-Dundas have been in close Therefore, the Opposition has had no contact with these people through their opportunity to know how an absent mem- professions, and they have put forward ber would have voted. somne very goad arguments. However, I believe there is legislation on the notice The SPEAKER: I believe this problem paper which is much more important than has been resolved. this, and I think we are wasting a great Mr. O'NEIL: This Is the point I raised deal of time. I hope no more legislation by way of interjection, and on that occa- of this nature will take precedence over sin I was taken up the wrong way. It more important Bills. may be that one of our members could be paired with another opposition member. MR1. O'NEIL (East Melville-Deputy However, this matter has been canvassed Leader of the Opposition) [7.43 p.m.]: fully. This appears to be the sort of legislation where we commonly hear the preamble "I I want to deal with four matters essen- did not intend to speak to this Bill." If tially- members care to check. I feel they will Mr, J. T. Tonkin: All at once? discover that this Is the most frequently Mr. O'NE1L: No, one after another. I occurring phrase in this Chamber. want to disagree with my leader- The fate of the measure In this Cham- Mr. May: You won't be very popular. ber is a foregone conclusion. Labor Party members will vote en bloc along party lines Mr. O'NEIL: -and I want to vote with as It is a Government Bill. That is a pity him. That should have produced the because we have not heard the views of interjection, "Two bob each way" but It any Government members other than did not. I will explain later why I intend those of the Attorney-General, who intro- to vote with MY leader. Thirdly, I will duced the Bill. and of the member for express my reasons for disagreeing with Boulder-Dundas. It Is Probably true to my leader; and fourthly, I want to talk say that at this Particular time In a session about the Bill because no-one has re- when a Government is anxious to complete ferred to it yet. its legislative programme, members on the Mr. Brown:, Your leader did. Government side are reluctant to waste the time of the House. it is also true to Mr. O'NEIL: The Attorney-General say that on an issue as important as this, introduced the Bill and told us what the one ought to have more than the intro- various clauses will do. However, what ductory speech of the Attorney-General- we have really discussed Is the problem as my leader has said, a mass of emotive of homosexuality. The moment we use prose-and a comment from one other the word "homosexuality" we create an member. atmosphere in which this particular sub- ject cannot be discussed sensibly. I can appreciate that we all have our We all observed the difficulty experi- own personal point of view on this matter. enced by the member for Subiaco, a medi- it is probably true that when our party cal practitioner, in trying to avoid words was in Government there were differences which would be offensive to those who of opinion between its members. Usually feel this Bill is In their interests. We such differences were sorted out, modified, would all find this same difficulty because and compromised-in the right sense of we are not as they. The very fact I have the word-in the party room, so that we said that indicates that my attitude must could expect the solid support of Govern- be biased to some degree. But how else ment members. If that were Dot so, chaos can we- discuss this Problem? If We look would reign. Members on this side of the at the Bill, we will see that the draftsman House are allowed to vote as they like, must have bad great difficulty in trying and the Premier will appreciate that a to avoid language which taints these difficulty must arise in regard to pairs. people. Some of the members of our party could vote Aye and some could vote No. This I differ from my leader when he said is different from the normal situation this Bill will do no good; it will do some where pairs are strictly Government mem- good. It may remove from the minds of bers paired with Opposition members. those people it is intended to cater for what they regard as a gui~lt complex, and Mr. Hartrey: Those pairs should have I cannot speak of the way they feel. It been granted on the basis that they are not is only the people concerned who know applicable to this particular Bill. Some how they feel. I do not know about it. I members are away and they have been am prepared to accept the proposition given a pair. that they feel guilty, and I am also pre- Mr. O NEIL.: The honourable member has pared to accept the proposition that in raised the point that yesterday an Oppo- their view this Bill will remove their feel- sition member may have been ranted a ing of guilt, because they are presently pair with a Government member. As these regarded as criminals in the eyes of so- members are absent today, they would not ciety. So In that respect I beg to diff er 5874 IASSEMBLY.] from my leader. However, I agree with decision whilst I was a Minister. I would him that in essence this Bill does little have had the courage to do what a Cab- else because it will not change the attitude inet member should do; that is, resign. of the community. I cannot bring myself Mr. Bickerton: Wait a minute now, this personally to change my attitude to these is Interesting. Do you mean to tell me people simply because of some words that as a Minister, if you disagreed with passed by this Parliament. I have sym- a Cabinet decision, you would resign? pathy for them-and in using the word "sympathy" I am showing my bias. Per- Mr. O'NEIL: That is not what I said. I haps I could say that I appreciate the said that if I disagreed, for strong moral situation in which they find themselves reasons, with a Cabinet decision I trust I because one of my acquaintances-a very would have the courage to resign. fine person-knows just how it feels to Mr.' Bickerton: Let us get to tactics. be in this position. He knows the How many Cabinet decisions did you dis- anguish suffered by him and by his agree with? friends and he has told me about his feeling of guilt. If the passage of this Mr. O'NEIL: I think William Morris Bill removes the guilt feeling from one Hughes said that he made many mis- man, then I am satisfied. But that does takes in his political life, but resigning not mean I will vote for the Bill. The Hill was not one of them. will pass this Chamber whether or not I Mr. Bickerton; That is what I thought vote for it. you said you would do. I want now to explain my reasons for Mr. O'NEIL: I said I hoped and trusted not voting for the Bill, and they do not I would have the courage of my convictions relate to its subject matter at all. In my to do -what any Cabinet Minister should very early years in this Parliament, whilst do in that situation and that is to resign. I was a Government member, the then I have said it three times now. Every Opposition made a move to repeal a law Cabinet Minister ought to have that which, in fact, in my own conscience I thought in the back of his mind. I am believed should be repealed. However, on sure the Premier had this thought- that occasion-a little dissimilar from this--te Government had a majority of Mr. Hartrey: Hughes did resign after his one. second Conscription Referendum was de- feated. Mr. Bickerton: It had a majority of two -one on the floor and one in the Chair. Mr. O'NEIL: That was not my fault. Mr. ONEIL: A majority of one on the Mr. Bickerton: What would you think floor of the House, if the Minister wishes if I said I was a homosexual because I got to be pedantic. The arguments put for- all mine at home? ward in support of the repeal of the legislation were valid and I believed in Mr. O'NEIL: I am trying to avoid refer- them. However, I knew that not every ring to personalities. member of the then opposition shared Mr. Bickerton: I thought you were get- my view that the law should be repealed. ting back to the Bill. I knew that, just as I know that it is impossible for all 26 men on the Govern- Mr. O'NEIL: I have made one or two ment side to believe that this Bill ought interjections which have been misunder- to be passed. stood. I have told members that I differ from my leader's view, but that I will vote On that occasion I said simply that I with him' We know that this Bill will be was not going to be the one person in passed, and I have given my reasons for Western Australia who made the decision. voting with my leader. If, in fact, all mem- I was not going to put myself in the bers of the Parliament had a free vote, I position of being an independent-as re- would vote for the Bill. However, I think ferred to by the Leader of the Opposition. the Bill would be passed if all members I made my decision that although I sup- were permitted a free vote. ported the measure I would not add that I point out that the matter on which one other vote to the votes of the regi- members have not spoken a great deal is mented half of the Chamber to permit the the measure itself. I am disgusted with the law to be changed. Bill-not the subject matter. With the Bill Mr. Bickerton: That was before you we are trying to remove a stigma of guilt were in Cabinet. from certain people who, through no fault of their own, feel that they suffer under Mr. O'NEIL: That is correct. that sort of stigma, but we are perpetu- Mr. T. D. Evans: That may be why you ating it in the very wording of this leg- got into Cabinet. islation. It would be worth while for members to look at the wording of the Mr. O'NEIL: However, let me say this English Act of 1967. That is a bit crude, to the Minister: I hope and trust that if too, but certainly it shows greater sensi- an occasion had arisen when I firmly tivity in this area than does our legisla- and honestly disagreed with a Cabinet tion. [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973) 587587

One has only to read the side notes of Does that mean that the person who the various clauses in the Bill to realise arranges for two women to meet to per- this. I intend to read them to the House form some kind of act of having carnal without referring to the clauses to which knowledge against the order of nature Is they relate. guilty of an offence? Does It mean that? Mr. T. fl. Evans: They carry no legal Mr. T. D. Evans: Yes, I would think so. weight at all; you know that. Mr. O'NI~L~: It does? Another provis- Ion In this clause reads- Mr. O'NEIL: I have been here long enough to know that. I am talking about Where a person procures another the crudity of the language that is used person to commit- in the Bill. The side notes to the clauses (bi an act of permitting a third read as follows- person, who Is a male person, Procuring certain unnatural acts in to have carnal knowledge of certain circumstances. that other person against the I will talk on the clauses of the Bill a little order of nature. later. The next side note is- This applies to a person who procures a male Person to Perform an act of having Indecent practices between males. carnal knowledge with either a male or a Then we have- female and when that act is against the Procuring indecent practices in cer- order of nature, that person commits an tain circumstances. offence. I think that clause should be Unnatural acts between consenting expanded. I pause here to ask: Why have adults in private. we referred, in the main, to male persons? It is of no use saying the law does not Mr. Bickerton: Why should they be un- make illegal homosexual acts between natural? females. Why should we specifically refer Mr. O'NEIL: That is the very paint I to males? If we are to say that what we am making; namely that the wording in call unnatural sexual acts are to be legal the Bill is perpetuating the attitude to if committed in private, why differentiate homosexuality. between a male and a female? Mr. Bickerton: That should be brought Mr. Bickerton: Because one act is legal up in the Committee stage. and the other is not legal. Mr. O'I'EIL: I have just said It Is not of The SPEAKER: Order! any use trying to make that point with me. Mr, O'NEIL: I think the Minister Is out This specifically refers to an act commit- of order, and I thank you, Mr. Speaker, ted by homosexual males and as such the for bringing him to order. There is a stigma must be left there in legislating query I have in respect of some of the specifically for males, wording in the Bill. I will not stress the If we want to say that sexual acts which wording of the measure any further except are different from those performed by to say that I hope members will pronounce heterosexuals are illegal, why specifically their own judgment when they hear the refer only to males? way this Bill Is worded. Mr. Bickerton: Because you have never The Bill proposes to create a new made such acts between females Illegal. offence-that of Procuring. It also pro- Mr. O'NEfLZ: I have never made any- poses to provide that homosexual acts-- thing illegal in this Bill because I have although I do not think that word is used anywhere in the Bill--or what we know never been the Minister for Justice. It Is as homosexual acts committed by consent- rather strange that a person who procures ing adults In private will no longer be should be guilty of nisdemeanour and at one of liable to imprisonment with hard labour Illegal. However let me look for two years, when the two people whom these clauses. In one clause the following he brings together may commit a homo- provision appears- sexual act In private with the consent of Where a person procures another both parties without being guilty of a person to commit- crime. (a) an act of having carnal know- Mr. Bickerton: What made copulation ledge of a third person against between two males illegal in the first place? the order of nature; Mr. O'NEIL: I would not have a clue. That Is an offence. The Minister did not Mr. Bickerton: You should look back tell us what is an act of having carnal in history. knowledge of a third person against the order of nature. I Point out that in this Mr. O'NEIL: 1 would not have a clue. provision there is no reference to a male. The Minister can tell us about his know- It reads "Where a person procures another ledge of history, but I am talking about person to commit an act of having carnal the Bill. In his second reading speech the knowledge of a third person against the Attorney-General said the Bill creates a order of nature," whatever that may be. new offence and it is in that area that The Provision then goes on to state that proposed new section 184A provides a such an act is an offence. penalty for this type of offence. I want 5976 5376ASSEMBLY.] the Minister, when he replies to the de- I have covered the contents of the Bill to bate, to explain to me the precise differ- some degree. I want the Attorney -General ence between an offence generated under to explain to us the differentiation between proposed new section 182A and that the two offences of procuring. In respect generated under proposed new section of one a person can be guilty of a mlis- 184A. Proposed new section 184A reads- demeanour and be liable to Imprisonment Where a person procures a male for two years with hard labour, and in person to commit an act of gross In- respect of the other a person Is liable to dency with a third person who is also imprisonment for one year with hard a male person,- labour. There is a difference in distinc- It then goes on to exempt the act if the tion, but being a layman and not having two people consent and if arrangements any personal knowledge of these cffences are made for a perfectly harmonious I would like to have the matter fully ex- union. if that is done that is not an plained. offence. However, the person who commits Mr. Bickerton: Do you want It explained the act of procuring Is guilty of a mis- or demonstrated? demeanour and he is liable to imprison- Mr. O'NEIEL: I have endeavoured, as far ment with hard labour for one year. as I am able, to keep my argument on a Mr. Hartrey: Would you like him to reasonable plane. I believe, If the Bill establish a matrimonial bureau Instead? achieves anything, it will probably-I do Mr. O'NEIL: I want to know the reason not know whether It will or not-remove for the differentiation. I want to know that sense of guilt which those people the difference between an act of gross in- who are true homosexuals claim they deney and an act of having carnal know- have. I would not know in my own mind ledge of a third person against the order whether the Bill will do that, and nobody of nature. In one offence the person else here would, either. However, if they found guilty Is liable to imprisonment are prepared to say that this Is what they with hard labour for two years, and in want I am also prepared to go along with the other a person is liable to Imprison- them, at least to that point. I do not ment with hard labour for one year. believe It will solve the problem. It may The Bill does not answer my question. well be that In years to come we will in All it does fact become more tolerant, and once again is refer to what is an Unnatural with the use of that word we think of a act. It reads- lesser being and that, In Itself, Is objec- In this section "unnatural act" tionable. means- I believe if the Bill does remove that (a) an act of having carnal know- sense of guilt from those people, it has ledge of any person against achieved a purpose for them. However, the order of nature. I do not believe it has achieved any pur- Therefore there is no sex involved as to pose for society as society is constituted the performance of the act. today. I go along with the sentiments be- Mr. Hartrey: Females cannot perform hind the legislation. I do not like the way an act of carnal knowledge with a male. in which it is framed. I do not like the way Mr. O'NEIEh: Let the member for in which the crudity is perpetuated in Boulder-Dundas tell me what is "an act of this Bill seeking to repeal certain provi- having carnal knowledge", because that sions in the Criminal Code because it will Is not defined In the Bill. I am seeking become Part of the principal Statute. this information because the Attorney- The SPEAKER: Members will be seated General did not fully explain his Bill. An and will keep quiet. unnatural act also means- Mr. O'NEIL: Generally speaking, I an act by any person of permitting a support the idea because I know the Bill male person to have carnal knowledge will pass in view of the fact that the Gov- of him or her against the order of ernment has the numbers, and I regret that, nature. because of that circumstance, we will not Thirdly, an unnatural act Is- hear many more speeches from members on the Government side of the Chamber. I an act of gross indecency committed have also indicated quite clearly that not by a male person with another male wishing to be placed in a position of having person. to be forced info making a totally regi- What is the definition of "ross in- mented vote, I will not vote for the meas- decency"? ure. Mr. Hartrey: Do you ever remember a case in Perth that happened 35 years MR. HUTCHIINSON (Cottesloe) [8.13 p.m.]: I will be brief so that my thoughts ago- will not be clouded by too many words. I Mr. O'NEIL: Immediately the honour- think the Bill before us Is a social reform able member refers to a case that hap- of some consequence; not of great conse- pened 35 years ago, I admit I am too quence, but of some consequence. It Will young to remember such a case. achieve some good. Perhaps the reason I [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973]1f 5877

Intend not to disagree with the legislation which we are now dealing. it deals with a is that I see, in my study of the subject, most Important social problem and the re- two Incontrovertible facts which influence sult of the vote on the legislation will have me. a substantial effect upon the people's wel- One is that the homosexual and homo- fare. sexuaity are part of our society. We live I wish to mention the ease of another and work with homosexuals although pre- minority group in our community. A sumably, in many instances, we do not member of a sporting club to which I know that they are homosexuals. However, belong was a compulsive stealer. He was the Bill contains some justice so far as I a kleptomaniac who could not help him- am concerned in that any legal stigma self. should be removed from those who are homosexuals. The other factor which in- Mr. O'Connor; I would say he was help- fluences me is that the matter of homo- ing himself! sexuals and homosexuality and the busi- The SPEAKER: I do not think the ness of removing the legal stigma from honourable member is debating the Bill. homosexuals exercised the minds of people in Great Britain f or many years, until some Mr. RUSHTQN: I am pointing out that few years ago legislation was placed on the we are attempting to legislate for a Statute book of Great Britain which has minority group, but no-one is legislating legitimised homosexuality between con- to help kleptomaniacs with their prob- senting adults in private, lems. Yet they are at a distinct social disadvantage, too. As has been pointed out, before that legislation was introduced a widely repre- Mr. T. D. Evans: You could have done sentative committee met for some time that as a private member. and heard a great deal of evidence. As I Mr. RUSHTON. That is so, but I wish have said, the result of the report of that to point out that I have not introduced committee is on the Statute book of Eng- the legislation before us. I am suggest- land. ing that the cause of kleptomiania is For those two principal reasons, as the similar to that relating to homosexuality. Bill is before us, I will support it. Legislation of this kind could be intro- duced to deal with a number of social MR. RUSHTON (Dale) [8.18 p.m.]: My difficulties in the community. It is an contribution to the debate will be brief. emotive issue and to my mind klepto- Basically I wish to place on record a, few mania is just as compulsive as is homo- points additional to those mentioned by sexuality. The argument submitted in previous speakers whose points of view I favour of this legislation is that if a respect. person cannot help what he does he is As I see the situation, we have con- at a social disadvantage. This is a tan- sciences to which we are answerable and talising problem with which we must we must assess the disadvantages as well compare parallel cases. as the advantages which will be the re- If, as a result of a conscience vote in sult of the legislation. If the vote on another Place, the legislation is lost it will the legislation were a truly free vote, be intriguing to know whether the Govern- it would be a genuine reflection of the ment will consider holding a referendum social attitudes of the day. This is what on the matter. the situation should be. Our vote on this issue should reflect the attitude of the The SPEAKER: That has nothing to do community. with the Bill. I feel very strongly for minorities and Mr. RUSHTON. I was just wondering I am trying to weigh up the advantages whether the Government would hold a to and needs of the homosexual against referendum if it lost the legislation. the adverse effects on the community Because the vote will not truly reflect which I believe will be the result of the the attitude of the community, I cannot passage of the legislation. accept the Bill. As I have said. I deplore the fact that the vote will not be a free one in this MR. T. D. EVANS (Kalgoorie-At- Chamber and also that such a massive torney-General) (8.20 p~m.]: This debate amount of legislation is being introduced has proved to be one of the most in- at this stage of the session. I suppose teresting and certainly one of the most this is the busiest part of the Govern- Informative in which I have participated ment's legislative programme, but we must in the House. bear in mind tbat this Administration will The Leader of the Opposition was at not be responsible for the implementation great pains to demonstrate that those on of the legislation with which we are now his side of the House would exercise a dealing because it is now in the last few nonpolitical vote on the issue; but then months of office. Despite this fact, at he was at greater pains to criticise and this late stage in the session we have a villify the Government for its temerity rush of legislation including some very in introducing the legislation as Govern- important Items, such as the one with ment policy. I make the point that this 5878 5878ASSEMLy.1 policy was written into our platform in Mr. T. D. EVANS: The vote on that 1970 prior to the decision being made by occasion was 64 in favour and 40 against; those on this side of the House to con- and it is interesting to note that amongst test the last general election. Every one those voting in favour of the change were of us knew of the policy and yet each one Mr. Gorton and the Leader of the of us chose to stand for election, or re- Country Party (Mr. Anthony). I was election as the case may be, under the rather surprised-indeed I was Intrigued- banner of the party. to hear the remarks of the Leader of the We do not hide this fact; we make no Country Party in this House. Perhaps he apology for it. We will vote for this is thinking of the marital relations with legislation because it Is party policy and the D.L.P. because he adopted the atti- we espouse that policy. tude that this was a moral question and he was not having anything to do with Sir Charles Court: What did your leader morals. say in 1972? Mr. McPharlin: I did not say anything Several members interjected. about morals, The SPEAKER: Order! Mr. T. D, EVANS: The Leader of the Mr. T. D. EVANS: During the debate 11 Country Party should refresh his memory members have Participated, and with this by looking at Volume 4 of Hantsard for I am very impressed, not because some of 1969-70; because in that volume he is those opposite have indicated that they reported as having spoken in favour of will support the measure, but because of the abortion Bill which contained a pro- the general tone of objectivity and sin- vision tantamount to abortion on demand. cerity demonstrated by all speakers. Mr. O'Neil: What about answering my I would be most insensitive if I had point about the two different offences? not been impressed by the very thought- Mr. T. D. EVANS: I wish to reply to an- ful, well-prepared, and well-presented other statement that this legislation Is re- contributions of the member for Sublaco pugnant to the law of God. I cannot Inter- and the member for Wembley. pret the will of God, but God does have It is often said that reform must come agencies on this earth-bodies which pur- from lower down because the mani who port to interpret his will. One of those bod- has four aces dealt to him rarely asks ies Is the Methodist Church of Australasia for another deal. On this occasion I have And I have here a letter sent by It to the indicated that as members of the Aus- Premier, dated the 28th October, 1973. tralian Labor Party in Government we It reads-- have introduced the Bill as party Policy. Dear Mr. Premier, It is pleasing to us to know that at least on this occasion we do not have a mono- re Homosexual Acts between poly on progressive thinking. Cnnsenting Adults. Sir Charles Court: I would hate to At the recently held annual Confer- think this was your idea of progressive ence of the Methodist Church in W.A. thinking. the following resolution was reaffirmed: "That the State Government be Mr. T. D. EVANS: I do not want to be urged to repeal those sections of the criticised for adopting a holier-than-thou Criminal Code dealing with homosex- attitude on this matter, but I feel com- ual acts between consenting adult pelled to make that observation. miales." The member for Cottesloe made a The Press reports have lately indi- point, and a very valid one, too. He said cated that you have In mind present- that since 195?, with the publication of Ing to Parliament legislation in line the Wolf enden report, legislation has with the above resolution. The Church changed as social times and mores have supports you in this move and hopes changed in the United Kingdom. He said that such legislation will be success- that one of the reasons compelling him ful. to support the measure was the fact that Yours sincerely, the United Kingdom saw fit to change its R. B. ANGUS, legislation and that, indeed, the people Director. of that country had lived with that legis- Mr. Angus is the Director of the Depart- lation since the change. ment of Christian Citizenship. Recently the Australian Parliament Sir Charles Court: Let us Into a secret. changed the law on this subject on a Mo- Will you support tion moved by a former Liberal Prime their views on liquor laws? Minister (Mr. John Gorton) and it would Mr. O'Connor: Did you not say this issue benefit many members to read his speech was In your policy? which is recorded in Federal Hansard of Mr. T. D. EVANS: it was part of our the 18th October, 1973. platform subsequent to the August, 1970, Mr. O'Neil; I have read It. conference. Mr. E. H. M. Lewis: He must have Mr. Thompson:- You should have told the agreed with You. Premier. Hie said he did not know. [Wednesday, 5 Dlecember, 1973] 5879

Mr. E. H. M. Lewis: What has that to do Mr. T. D. EVANS: "Carnal knowledge" with the member for Narrogin? is dealt with in section 6 of the Criminal Code which reads as follows- Mr. 'T. D. EVANS: The Deputy Leader of the Opposition is another person wno Sur- Mr. O'Neil: That is what I want you to prises me. do-explain it. Mr. O'Neil: Invariably. Mr. T. D2. EVANS: Section 6 of the Criminal Code reads- Mr. T. D. EVANS: He said that his opinion differed from that of his leader, When the term "carnal knowledge" but that he would vote with him. He or the term "carnal connection" is said quite firmly that he would vote against used in defining an offence, it is In- the Bill. Then he concluded his remarks by plied that the offence, so far as re- asking me to clarify the situation. I ask gards that element of it, Is complete him: If I am able to clarify the situation upon penetration. for him, will he alter his decision? The other provision to which the Deputy Mr. O'Neil: Of course not. I want to Leader of the Opposition referred was. know why you have two offences and I I think, clause 5 which will add sections want to know the difference between the 184A and 184B to the Criminal Code, two. which sections deal with procuring. How- ever, the material words refer to an act Mr. T. D. EVANS: The opinion of the of gross indecency as distinct from carnal Deputy Leader of the Opposition is like knowledge. concrete; it is all mixed up and firmly set. He asks questions but the answers will Mr. O'Neil: What is the difference? have no effect on his decision. Mr. T. D. EVANS: I leave that to the Several members interjected. imagination of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. The SPEAKER: Order!I Mr. O'Neil: That is about all the Attor- Mr. O'Neil: The Minister does not know ney-General does; he does not know his the difference. That is why he will not own Bill. reply. Mr. T. D. EVANS: We have heard, in The SPEAKER: Order! quite messiah-like terms from some of those who have debated this measure, that Mr. T. D. EVANS: The Deputy Leader by extending some form of tolerance we of the Opposition asks me to clarify the are, in fact, condoning the behaviour of situation and I am prepared to try to People who, after all, are human beings. do just that. Mr. O'Neil: What a little man you are. Mr. Brown: well said. Mr. T. D. EVANS: However, they only Sir Charles Court: There are memorable differ from us in that they have different occasions in this Parliament of Ministers sexual tastes or desires. It has been im- losing Bills which they have already won. Plied that we are condoning this behaviour by putting a label on it. Mr. T. D. EVANS: I wish the Leader of the Opposition would blow his trumpet Sir Charles Court: Yes, You are. somewhere else. Mr. T. D. EVANS: I say we are not. Clause 3 seeks to add several sections. When we extend a little tolerance towards one of which Is section 182A, portion of homosexuals we are not doing that at all. which reads as follows- I believe the community will recognise the merit of the Bill and the motive for Its 182A. Where a person procures an- introduction. other person to conmit-- Sir Charles Court: You are making it (a) an act of having Carnal respectable in the eyes of the law. person knowledge of a third Question put and a division taken with against the order of nature; following result- or the Ayes-28 (b) an act of permitting a third Mr. Bateman Mr. Hartrey person, who is a male Person, Mr. Bertram Mr. Hlutchinson to have carnal knowledge of Mr. Brady Mr. Jones Mr. Brown Mr. Lapham that other person against the Mr. Bryce Mr. A. A. Lewis order of nature. Mr. B. T. Burke Mr. May Mr. T. J. Burke Mr. Moller The material words in that provision are Mr. Cook Mr. Sewell "an act of having carnal knowledge" and Dr. Dadour Mr. Stephens ... to Mr. Davies Mr. Taylor "an act of permitting a third person Mr. H. D. Evans Mr. A. Th. Tonkia have carnal knowledge". Mr. T. D. Evans Mir. J. T. Tonkin Mr. Pletcher Mr. R. L. Young Mr. O'Neil: one refers to males and Mr. H1armsn Mr. Blickerton the other has no reference to males. (Teller) 5880 5880ASSEMERLY.]

Noes 17 has said because this is the place where, I Sir Charles Court Mr. O'Neil believe, any member can Mr. Coyne Mr. Ridge express his views Mr. Qayfer Mr. Runciman on these matters. I always defend those Mr. Grayden Mr. Rushiton views, no matter from which side they Mr. E. H. M. Lewis Mr. SMbsoD Mr. W. A. Manmung Mr. Thompson are expressed. The Minister should apolo- Mr. McPbarlln Mr. W. G. Young gise. Mr. Mensarce Mr. L W. Manning Mr. O'Connor (Teler) As far as I am concerned, personally, the vote on the main question has been Question thus passed. taken but my views are unchanged. Bill read a second time. Mr. T. D., EVANS: if any member read In Committee into my words, or received a message which was not intended to be sent, that The Chairman of Committees (Mr. when I spoke about a messiah-like atti- Batemnan) in the Chair; Mr, T. D. 'Evans tude I Intended to imply that I adopted (Attorney-General) in charge of the Bill. a holler-than-thou attitude, I would be the Clauses 1 and 2 put and passed. first one to withdraw the remark, un- Clause 3:- Addition of section 182A- reservedly. Sir CHARLES COURT: I do not pro- Clause put and Passed. pose to deal at great length with this Clauses 4 and 5 put and passed. clause. I think it is shockingly drafted. However, if the Attorney-General, who is Title put and passed. responsible for it, is satisfied, it is on his head. I would hate to be defending some- Report one subject to this clause. Bill reported, without amendment, and I rise principally to say that we take the report adopted. strong exception to the attitude adopted Third Reading by the Attorney- General when replying to Bill read a third the second reading debate. I am not com- time, on motion by plaining about myself, but as a result of Mr. T. D. Evans (Attorney- General), and what he said about some other members transmitted to the Council. who have spoken to this measure. if BILLS (4): RETURNED some people harve strong spiritual views on certain subjects they are entitled to ex- 1. Prevention of Pollution of Waters by press their opinions. Oil Act Amendment Bill. Mr. T. D. Evans: I did not deny them 2. Workers' Compensation Act Amend- that right. ment Bill (2nd.). The CHAIRMIAN: Order! 3. Tourist Bill. Bills returned from the Council with Mr. O'Neil: You are a little petulant amendments. man. 4. Liquor Act Amendment Bill. The CHAIRMAN: Order, members! We are in Committee. Bill returned from the Council with- out amendment. Sir CHARLES COURT: The Attorney- General was insulting and it does not be- METRIC CONVERSION ACT come a man who holds his position to AMENDMIENT BILL (No. 2) speak in the manner in which he did about people who have expressed their own Second Reading views. This was done previously when Debate resumed from the 20th Novem- the Liquor Act was being amended. I ber. took exception then and I do so again. The CHAIRMAN: I must point out that DR. DADOTJR (Subiaco) [8.45 p.m.]: we are not dealing with that sort This is one of a number of Bills amending of pro- Acts to convert them into metric meas- vision. urements. No matter how many times I Sir CHARLES COURT: I will relate my look at these Bills, some of the romance remarks to the clause because, in fact, seems to have gone out of the figures, We most of the problems which arose and have been used to feet, miles, yards, etc., brought about the comments were in con- and we are now changing over to almost nection with the proposed new sections regimented forms of kilometres, metres, covered by this clause. If one believes in etc., which are in multiples of 10 and make the Bible the views expressed by the mem- calculations so simple that one wonders ber concerned are historically correct. I how we ever got by with our measurements believe the Minister does believe in the in Inches, Yards, Perches, and so on. Bible. However, 14 Acts have been amended, I take this opportunity to say that we and the Bill now before us contains 66 on this side of the Chamber take strong amendments. The conversion is approxi- exception to what the Attorney-General mate. It must be approximate because of [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 5881

the necessity to make metric measure- pensive, with rents work, an indication that Unless the and sometimes we have a Publication is returned within little bit of give and take. a certain Period the recipient is liable to pay for it. I see no reason for not accepting the Bill In MY Office I have such a publication as it stands. which was sent to me about three years ago. I have not opened the box in which MR. J1. T. TONKIN (Melville-Premier) it is contained, but I have been waiting E8.47 p.m.]: I thank the member for Sub- anxiously for the follow-up action to take taco for the indication of support for the place. I think the Organisation which sent Bill. There is not a great deal to it. Hav- it to me realised that all Governments ing embarked on a Process of metrication. were having a look at this practice and wve have no option but to Proceed to final- decided to give me the book as a gift. When ity. this legislation is passed, I will open up the box and have a look at the book. The Passing of this Bill will leave a very small number of Acts Certain types of practices which to be attended to, acceptable are which will be done in due course. The Bill are to be exempted from the provides for the metrication provisions of the legislation. I have of an addi- asked been tional number of Acts in accordance with by the Chamber Of Commerce to the decision taken when the first Metric raise the matter Of a Common practice Conversion Bill was introduced. which occurs in the metropolitan area; that is, the supply of heating oil to Question Put and passed. various homes. In my home I have an oil heater Bill read a second time. and a lOG-gallon tank beside the house. Every so often someone comes along and In Committee, etc. tops UP the tank, leaving the docket In Bill Passed through Committee my letter box. This Is a service which I without sincerely appreciate debate, reported without amendment, and and one which we want the report adopted. to be absolutely certain Is not outlawed by the provisions of the Bill. It that is true Third Reading I1filled in an application form from the oil company Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr. concerned, asking for the J. T. service to be rendered so that it would Tonkin (Premier), and transmitted to be necessary not the Council. for me to ring up every time the tank needed filling. I cannot recall whether the UNSOLICITED GOODS AND SERVICES service was to be Provided for any specified time, but It is BILL a service which the Minister should ensure is not outlawed, Second Reading provided the Customer requests It. Debate resumed from the 21st Clause 19 of the Hill gives Power Novem- clare to de- ber. certain transactions and Publications to be not subject to the legislation. I MR. O'NEIL think we agree essentially with the (East Melville-Deputy ciples prin- Leader of the Opposition) (8.50 p.m.]: of the Bill, but some care must be This is a further Bill which taken in the implementation of the legis- comes under lation to the general beading of Hills related to ensure that such services as I consumer affairs, and we have mentioned are not inhibited. have no objec- same The tion to the two Propositions contained in applies to some kinds of Publica- it. tions. For example, many people sub- scribe to the World As a matter Book Club or the of fact, I think it was the Readers' Digest Hook Club, member for Cottesloe who brought and every so to the Often a Publication Is sent to them with notice of this House at any rate-not to an attached the Public notice-a invoice. We must be very practice related to careful to ensure that Pseudo invoicing, whereby an advice if the Service is In the rendered by the company at the request form of an invoice is sent to a Person and of the consumer that Person is "conned" the provisions of the Bill into Paying a sum do not give the consumer in order to have his name appear In a the right to embarrass the company Providing the ser- certain kind of register. In the instance vice. he mentioned, I think it was hinted that it was an entry for the Pink Pages of the With those few remarks, I support the telephone directory. We think this prac- legislation. tice should certainly be outlawed, and the Hill proposes to MRt. HARMANq do just that. So in that (Maylands...Min 5 ter for regard we have no argument. Consumer Protection) (8.56 p.m.]: I thank The the Deputy Leader of the Opposi- Hill also covers the matter of un- tion for supporting solicited goods. This area is mainly cov- this further measure for consumer protection in Western Aus- ered by some booksellers, who send to tralia. People on a selected I will take up the Point he has mailing list publica- made about oil tions which are in most cases rather deliveries. Although the ex- transaction could be exempted under 5882 5882ASSEMBLY.] clause 19 of the Bill, I think It Is implicit One Issue he wanted to examine In the original agreement that the supply was the question of long-term credit of oil would be made to the consumer. It sales to underdeveloped countries. Is therefore not really an unsolicited sup- In my opinion that is particularly rele- ply of goods. vant, in view of the discussion which The Bill specifically covers goods which occurred in this Chamber recently in re- are genuinely unsolicited and makes very gard to the wheat deal made with the clear the rights of the person who receives Arab countries. The Federal Minister's the goods and the rights of the supplier statement continues- of the goods in cases where the goods are He did not believe that wheat supplied on the basis that they have been growers should carry the full burden ordered. All these matters are covered of sales to nations that needed wheat in the legislation. I thank the House for but could not afford to buy without supporting the measure. concessional terms. Question put and passed. Where normal humanitarian mo- Bill read a second time. tives were involved, he thought the entire community should perhaps In Committee, etc. share the burden. Bill passed through Committee without Long-term credit sales in the past debate, reported without amendment. and had drastically lengthened the wait the report adopted. by growers for additional payments after the first advance. Third Rea~dintg As growers, we know how very true that Bill read a. third time, on motion by Mr. is. Indeed, this year the Federal Minister, Harman (Minister for Consumer Protec- announced the second payment for the tion), and transmitted to the Council. 1969-70 pool. I would remind the House that before then growers had received the PUBLIC SERVICE ACT AMENDMENT first advance of $1.10 per bushel at the B3ILL (No. 3) sidings, from which was deducted the rail Order Discharged freight and the 0..1. handling charge. The growers existed on that first advance MR. 3. T. TONKIN (Melville-Premier) between then and June of this year. when (9.01 p.m.]: Irmove- they received their second payment of 5c That Order of the Day No. 5 be a bushel. discharged from the notice Paper. During the debate the other evening a Motion put and passed. certain amount of acrimony occurred Order discharged. over the fact that the Federal Government is guaranteeing the growers for only 75 WHIEAT IINDUSTRY STABILIZATION per cent. of any loss they might incur in ACT AMENDMENT BILL respect of the payment by Egypt for the wheat sales contract. The Minister justi- Second Reading fled this on the grounds that there is pro- Debate resumed from the 27th Novem- vision in the Federal wheat stabilization her. Statute for the Federal Minister to direct the Australian Wheat Board; and so MR. E. H, MW.LEWIS (Moore) [9.02 there is. However, it is very seldom that p~m.];. I do not intend to speak at great the provision has been invoked. I would length on this 311] which we in this corner like to quote a Press statement released of the House heartily support because it by the then Minister for Primary Indus- proposes to extend the wheat industry try (Mr. Sinclair) on the 24th September, stabilization scheme for a. further 12 1971, part of which reads- months to enable the Federal Minister to It should be emphasised that the consider the scheme with a view to effect- Wheat Board is not a Government ing some improvements. I would like to Agency. In spite of suggestions in quote some comments of the Federal some quarters that this is so, the Minister on the 16th May, as follows- Board operates with a grower majority Senator Wriedt said today that the and in autonomous control of its own extension would give him time to look affairs. at Wheat Stabilisation objectively and So even at that stage the provision was draw up plans for a new longer term in the Act, but the Minister never in- scheme to operate from December, voked his powers under the Act to inter- 1974. fere with the Australian Wheat Board. A little further on we find the following- Mr. H. D. Evans: Would you tell us who He stressed that the Government introduced that particular amendment- had no intention of departing from 13 (3)-and when? the principle of Stabilisation, par- ticularly in view of the fluctuating Mr, E. H. M. LEWIS: I could not say. nature of the wheat market. Mr, Gayfer: Sir Philip McBride. [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 588388

Mr. H. D. Evans: In what year? It was We need only have a drought-and this the previous Government that Included has happened in large consumning coun- the powers to direct the Wheat Board. tries-to find that we are short of wheat, Just as we are at the moment. On the other Mr. Qayfer: This is the first time that band, a good season well spread amongst power has ever been used. the purchasing countries enables themn to Mr. H. D. Evans: It was put in by build up a supply, and thus brings down McBride, though. the price. The whole history of 'wheat- Mr. E. H. M. LEWIS: We support this growing has been one of violent fluctua- Bill because the scheme has taken us out tlons. I am all for having some stability of the old days when we had violent fluc- in the Industry, but let us not be too de- tuations in production, supply, pay- pendent upon the so-called experts-es- ment, and the subsequent price of wheat. pecially some of these experts in econom- After many years of agitation the wheat ics-in respect of what should be done stabilization plan was brought into being. about the wheat industry. it has been renewed every five years I said at the outset that I did not intend since-admittedly with some amendments to speak at length. We support the Bill. We -and has given much needed stability to would, of course, have liked to see a new the wheat industry. scheme presented now so that we would The Federal Minister now asks for an know what the Position will be for the extension of one year to give him a next five Years. But the Federal Minister chance to review the scheme. That is fair has decided that he wants to consider the enough. In a statement he issued on the scheme, and I suppose that is fair enough. 29th May this year, the Federal Minister After all, the scheme is guaranteed with said- a certain amount of public funds. Mr. W. 0. Young: There are no public .following the August meeting of funds this year. the Australian Agricultural Council, he would consult with the Federation Mr. E. H. M. LEWIS: Nio, not this year, on its approach to a new stabilisation but there will be in the new scheme. plan. The Council meeting would re- Mr. Brown: It will be the same scheme ceive a progress report on the prepar- of the Past five years. ation of a new plan. Mr. E. H. M. LEWIS: We are not talk- The Department of Primary Indus- ing about a new scheme at the moment; try had established a Wheat Stabil- all we are talking about is the extension isation Review Group and had drawn of the present scheme for one year. This up a work program. Specific research will be more or less a Period of grace to tasks had been allocated among of- enable the Minister to consider the matter. ficers of the Department. Letters had We hope within the next 12 months he been sent to State Directors of Agri- will be able to present us with a scheme, culture, academics and other experts which will be acceptable to the growers, seeking their submissions on wheat for the further stabilization of this very stabilization. important industry which means so much of course, we are referring to a product to the economic well-being of Australia. which belongs to the growers. The Com- monwealth Minister is seeking submis- MR. BROWN (Merredln-Yllgarn) (9.13 sions from Directors of Agriculture, aca- p.m.]: I wish briefly to support the Sinl demics, and other experts. For a sample of as Presented to the Parliament. in doing some of this so-called expert advice. I so. I recognise that the introduction of this would refer to an article which appeared scheme took place In 1948. It was intro- in The West Australian of the 9th Jan- duced by the then Federal Labor Govern- uary, 1971, under a Sydney dateline. In nment for the stabilization of the wheat part, the article reads as follows-- Industry. It was first mooted In 1945 and A decision by the Australian Wheat- became a reality in 1945. The grain growers growers' Federation to recommend an of Australia must be proud of the achieve- increase in wheat quotas was described ments of the then Minister for Primary today as a reckless gamble. Induqtry (Mr. Reg Pollard). The lecturer in economic geography I think thits Bill is complementary to the at Melbourne University, Mr. E. J. activities of our quota system. It is also Donath, said that the world wheat sit- complemnentary to the Wheat Export Charge uation did not justify any increase in Act which has been presented to the production by Australia. Federal Parliament, and takes into account the seasonal fluctuations which are not That article appeared considerably less written into legislation. than three years ago. In fact, not more than two years after that statement was The object of this legislation Is for the issued we found ourselves in dire straits growers to receive a payment for che grain 'with a world shortage of wheat. I defy any they deliver to the handling authorities. academic anywhere to predict just what That grain is in turn handled by the the world supply and demand situation State authorities under their legislation, will be, even for a period as short as two and the Australian Wheat Board is res- years ahead. ponsible for sales and the payment to 5884 5884LASSEIVILY.I growers. When export sales are such that Mr. W. G. Young; But at that time we the payment is in excess of $1.65 a bushel, were not directed. the next 15e is paid into the stabilization fund. I refer to the money received from Mr. BROWN: This was written Into the the export of grain from Australia. Act by the Minister for Primary Industry .If the price falls below a predetermined of the day; that was Sir John MeEwen. figure the Australian Government is res- Whether the Minister for Commerce of ponsible for making up the leeway. If It Is the day (Sir Philip McBride) introduced above $1.65 then the next 15c will go Into it on his behalf I do not know. a stabilization fund, and that amount Is The Point to bear in mind is that a then brought forward by contributions to contract has been entered into between further stabilization. the Australian Wheat Board and Egypt. Irrespective of what members through- Irrespective of what members may think, out the Parliaments of Australia may say, the Australian Government has honoured this system has worked very well. The the contract for the final sale to the extent pros and cons of the argument relating to of 75 per cent. the contributions by the growers and the consumers have been acknowledged; but The SPEAKER: Does this come under the main point at issue is what will hap- the Bill? pen in the future, and not so much what has happened in the past, whether an Mr. BROWN: This is in connection with amount of $156,000,000 has been con- the Wheat Industry Stab ilization Act tributed by the taxpayers over a period of Amendment Bill. This matter was men- time, or whether $400,000,000 has been tioned by three members opposite, when subsidised by the wheatgrowexs to the they referred to the shortcomings of the consumers of this country. Australian Government. It is important my knowledge of the Industry Indicates for members to know that the Australian that it Is the desire of the people that Government has honoured a contract of the Australian consumer should be the world- wide significance. Irrespective of backbone of the industry, and the farmer the country involved, when a contract is should be the backbone of production. entered into the Australian Government has an obligation to honour it. it Is of concern to note that there has been an expression of opinion on what It is fair to say that the extension of might happen in respect of the wheat this legislation for one year indicates the contract with Egypt. I say this to every responsible action that is being taken by Australian who has a responsibility for the Minister for Primary Industry. We honouring a coritract: the first thing are still in the quota period, and I am which any Australian Government would pleased to note that the member for Moore do is to hontour the sale made under con- in the Federal Parliament has made some tract to Egypt. This is a three-year con- utterances in respect of quotas. Usually tract. he makes such utterances outside Parlia- ment, rather than in it. It has been claimed by members op- posite that the Government has guaranteed We should bear in mind that the quota 'i5 per cent, of it, and this proportion fixed for this year is the highest of any is insufficient because the industry has to that has been introduced in Australia. An carry the other 25 per cent. I would point extra 20,000,000 bushels is to be allocated out thbat this Is the greatest nercentage to the States, as an addition to their of contribution by any Government to- normal quotas. The production in New wards the export of wheat to any country, South Wales has been reduced from including China. It is the greatest con- 155,000,000 bushels to 130,000,000 bushels tribution that has been negotiated by the as a result of the incidence of rust. Australian Wheat Board, recognising what That is unfortunate, but it is my has been written into the Act and the duty to support the type of bonus responsibility of members of the board. that the Australian Government has made available to Western Australia as a On a world level the Australian Govern- result of the reduced production in New ment, or what was known previously as South Wales. There is to be an extra the Commonwealth Government. has had 20,000,000 bushels available for distribu- a responsibility to honour the contracts tion among the States. It is rather signi- entered into by Australia. In this regard ficant that Western Australia appears to I think the Australian Government has be the only fortuitous State which will carried out the terms of the contract with benefit from this additional quota of Egypt honourably. 20,000,000 bushels. Mr. W. 0. Young: The farmers are As a result of the extension of the honouring 25 per cent. of it. Wheat Industry Stabilization Act for Mr. BROWN: In reply to that interlec- another year certain criticisms have been tion I would point out that when the levelled. I believe they are unjust for the previous Government sold wheat on terms reasons I have given. I have pointed out to China it did not have any options. that the present quota is the largest which [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 588588 has been granted to the primary indus- Government intended to do something tries. Furthermore, the additional else with the $45,000,000. But in fact 20,000,000 bushels will favour States these moneys will be brought forward. negotiating for an increased quota. We should bear in mind the important A third and a very important factor part that stabilization has played in the concerns the initiatives taken by the Aus- wheat industry since 1948, when the legis- tralian Government. They were not taken lation was first introduced in the House in the past few weeks, but at the begin- of Representatives, complemented by the ning of the season, before the seeding. State legislation. In 1973 we have the first We are debating this Bill while the farmers opportunity to take the same action are stripping their crops, but the through supplementary legislation. I be- decisions were made at the Lime I have lieve that the programme laid down ini mentioned. It is important to bear in 1948 will be the format for another 21 de- mind that the initiative was taken to cades of progress in the agricultural in- grant an extra 10c per bushel. dustry. Mr. Gayfer: Out of whose money? 1MR. H. D. EVANlS (Warren-Minister Mr. BROWN: This comes back to the for Agriculture) [9.27 pm.]: It would be question of who will pay the $1.20 or wrong of me to allow some of the distor- $1.10 per bushel. It is the same party tions and half truths that have been raised that pays it. by members opposite to be perpetuated. Mr. H. D. Evans: This is the first in- without at least setting the record straight. crease In 15 years. Mr. O'Connor: You want to go on all Mr. BROWN: The Minister for Agricul- night again. ture quite rightly says, this is the first Mr. H, D. EVANS: If the honourable increase in 15 years. member is prepared to see something that Mr. W. 0. Young: We planted our crops is not completely factual being placed on In June, but we are debating the Bill the official record without being refuted, only now. I am not Prepared to do the same. In this Mr. BROWN: This is no different from regard I would like to make a few points, the format which was adopted when the and I am glad the member for South Perth legislation was Introduced in 1948, and is in the Chamber. first implemented In November of that it has been said by members opposite year. that the reason for the stabilization Mr. McPharlin: The first advance is scheme being delayed should be attributed $1.10. to the lack of expertise by Senator Wrledt in his new Portfolio, flat is hardly Mr. BROWN: The first advance is $1.20 a correct summation of the facts. per bushel. The three significant points I have just mentioned are not acknowledged Mr. W. G. Young: Tell us the reason. by the member for Roe. There is an extra Mr. H. D. EVANS: Senator Wriedt indi- 10c paid to the primary producers on a cated that the time was long overdue when percentage basis representing nearly 10 per the stabilization scheme should be re- cent. This is the first increase in 15 years. viewed, and he intended to do Just that. Mr. E. H. M. Lewis: Whose money is in carrying this out he bad the concur- that, the 100? rence of the Australian Wheat Growers' Federation. He could have introduced a Mr. BROWN: Whose money is the $1.10? stabilization scheme based on the report Mr. E. H. M. Lewis: Whose money is the of Sir Allan Callaghan. How would mem- $1.10? The whole amount has to be bor- bers opposite like that? rowed. Mr. MePharlin: He requested the delay. Mr. BROWN4: The honourable member Is not prepared to do his arithmetic, and Mr. H. D. EVANS: He requested the de- previously in the debate on the Appropria- lay in order that a full investigation and tion Bill I pointed that out to him. The review of the stabilization scheme as such final matter I wish to bring before the no- might be undertaken. He had the report tice of members relates to the $45,000,000 of Sir Allan Callaghan as a basis on which surplus that will be placed by the growers to act, and this could have been the basis with the Australian Government as a result of a new stabilization scheme. However, of this season's crop. the research was undertaken. I would like to quote what 'Senator I would remind members that the Fed- Wriedt said in respect of this $45,000,000 eral member for Moore (Mr. Maisey) has on the 29th November, 1973. He was referred to Sir Allan Callaghan as a men- replying to the second reading debate, and ace. I presume that the member for Moore was dealing with the pros and cons of the did have some support for his view. I am wheat stabilization scheme. He had this to sure this report is not the one which mem- say in the Senate- bers opposite would like to be taken as a I think some Country Party mem- basis for a new scheme. bers in the House of Representatives Mr. May: You were referring to Mr. were spreading rumours that the Maisey, M.H.R. 5886 5886ASSEMBLY.3

Mr. H. D. EVANS: Perhaps I could make Mr. H-.1), EVANS: This "hostile" Minis- reference to the comments of Mr. Heffer- ter for Primary Industries so far has nan, the President of the Victorian Farm- allowed an increase of 10c a bushel on the ers' Union who in a public place at first Payment. This is the first increase Corryong said that Senator Wriedt was In 15 years. Surely this is a "hostile" the best Minister for Primary Industry action? in the that the Farmers' Union had seen Mr. MoPharlin: Tell us how it is ar- last 15 years. ranged. Mr. W. G. Young: We have never seen Mr. H. D. EVANS: one of the Incentives him. was that it would increase the production Mr. Taylor: And he supported what of wheat, as much as anything else. Senator Wriedt did. It has also been said that this is only Mr. H. D. 'EVANS: This merely goes to a 12-mitjh extension, but It certainly show that there is some room for dispute. indicates that the principles of stabiliza- This is a significant statement from a tion are still as strongly embraced by the man of the stature of Mr. Heffernan. Australian Government as they have been Members opposite were critical of the hitherto. attitude adopted by Senator Wriedt and The recommendation of the A.W.F. for I recall that the word "hostile" was used a 514,400,000 bushel pool was accepted. by the member for South Perth on several An additional 20,000,000 was set aside for occasions. Everything was "hostile" on a separate pool to allow for exigencies and this occasion-not "diabolical". was to be used at the discretion of the Mr. Orayden: I referred to the hostile minister. This will be a boon to Western attitude on the part of the Minister. Australia this year. On the 24th May this year an announcement was made of a Mr. H. D. EVANS: Let us look at this second payment on the 1969-70 pool, hostile attitude on the part of the Minis- There Is also the question of assistance ter. We should be clear in our own minds amounting to $500,000 being set aside for that the Wheat Industry Stabilization the control of locusts. Are these the Scheme was introduced by a Labor Gov- actions of a Minister for Primary Industry ernment 23 years ago. who is "hostile"? Mr. McPharlin: It has been Improved Mr. W. 0. young: We have wheat pay- out of all recognition. ments every year. Mr. H. D. EVANS: I am glad that the Mr. MePharlin: Is this something new? Leader of the Country Party raised thIs The SPEAKER: Order! point. Hie did so the other night and said Mr. H., D. EVANS: The question was that all legislation, Including legislation raised of the sales of wheat to one of -the which would be brought to the Parliament countries of the Arab Republic; namely, in the future, would be improved. Egypt. This was used as an indictment of Mr. McPharlin: There is always some- the Present Government's involvement in thing wrong with any scheme when it the wheat industry and it was used f or starts off. It Is Improved as It goes along. political purposes. Let us look at this and This happened with the wheat stabiliza- see how tacky the hands of the previous tion scheme. Grovernment have been. It should be noted that the powers which Senator Wriedt used Mr. H. D. EVANS: Quite so. In the course were those which he had under section 13 of the Improvements which have been (3) of the Wheat Industry Stabilization made previously no provision was made Act. Ile gave his directions under that for the full deduction of the operator section. it should be noted that on the allowance in calculating price. Also, the 20th. October, 1954, Sir Philip McBride previous Federal Government stopped the introduced the Wheat Stabilization Bill to full Interest on land being used in calcu- Parliament on behalf of John McEwen, lating the price; not to mention full Inter- who was not then Sir John MoEwen. He est charges on structures; and full Interest said- charges of plant in the calculation of The Minister may give directions to price. It Is significant that section 13 (3) the Board concerning the perform- was amended. ances of its functions and the exer- Mr. McPharlin: Can you assure us that cises of its powers and the Board shall the present Minister will take this into comply with those directions. account? This is what gave him the powers. Let us look at the reasons given in the second Mr. H. D, EVANS: I am merely answer- reading speech, because they are most ing the Points raised by members opposite. illuminating. I will quote one paragraph Members of the opposition have talked as follows-- about changes. Changes were made, I it is far from the Government's in- admit, but the changes I have mentioned tention that this should open the way are the ones which were made. to Government interference in the Mr. McPharlin: You cannot assure us. wheat selling operations of the [Wednesday. 5 December, 19731 585887

Board, but it will be obvious to Mr. R. D. EVANS: When fighting broke Honourable Members and it has, in out there was an insistence for cash. fact, been clearly stated to the Mr. W. G. Young: There would have Wheatgrowers' Federation that as the been no export license had there not been. Australian Government assumes the financial responsibility of guarantee- Mr. H. D. EVANS: I am being a little ing the plan from public revenue then, critical of the Country Party in particular. in the interest of the taxpayers The wheat industry was delighted to pick generally, it cannot be indifferent, for up the Egyptian market a few years ago instance, to the price at which the when it had lost sales to China. Board may be willing to sell wheat at some particular time or to some Mr. W. 0. Young: It was a buyers' particular market. market. We are in the business to sell wheat. it can be definitely inferred fromn that statement that the wheat industry was Mr. H. D. EVANS: In future members involved very closely with- the Australian of the Country Party may welcome the taxpayer and that regard must be paid to Egyptian market. the Australian taxpayer. Consequently, Mr. O'Connor: What about the oil some control over the price activities was situation? thereby introduced. Mr. H, D. EVANS: The fact is that a Mr. Gayfer: Correct. contract had been entered into with the Mr. H. D). EVANS: This was not the Egyptians. It was unassailable. it was action of the present Government. entered into at a time when It was essent- Mr. Gayfer: We know that. ial that the wheat growers of the country should have every market which was Mr. E. H. MW.Lewis: Did the previous available to them. Minister exercise that power? Mr. Qayfer: What were the conditions Mr. H. D, EVANS: Apparently be did of those three years? not see fit to do so. Mr. R. D. EVANS: The commitment had Mr. E. H. M. Lewis; No, that is the already been entered into, but we hear point. nothing about the recent sales to Bangla- Mr. H. D. EVANS: Senator Wriedt, at desh and the financial arrangement which his discretion, used this section to direct was made there. Certainly, there is still a the board to bear 25 per cent. of the risk commitment on the part of the Australian in sales to Egypt. This was to be the Wheat Board but it is a comparati-ely responsibility of the board and the remain- minor one. It Is down to 10 per cent. Con- ing '75 per cent. was to be a responsibility sequently the Opposition, in complaining to be borne by the Australian Government. of Government interference in the opera- tions of the Wheat Board, is on rather Mn. MePharlin: Why did not the Com- shaky ground. This is particularly so when monwealth Government accept the 100 per we have regard to what occurred In H-ong cent.? Kong and to negotiations in 1971 with Mr. H. D). EVANS: The commitment to Mainland China. supply 100,000,000 tons in 1973-74 to it was found-and Mr. McMahon was Egypt was made and the price was sub- challenged on this point-that a note had ject to negotiation. In previous years the been delivered to the Australian Wheat board had made sales on terms but it Board delegates from Mr. McMahon to the decided this year to make sales for cash. effect that If the Mainland Chinese Gov- Mr. MePharlin: That is right. ernment did not use its Influence to stop left-wing student riots in Hong Kong, Mr. H. D. EVANS: The Australian wheat sales would be cut. M1%, McMahon, Government has adopted the view-and as I have said, was challenged on this this would appear to be policy-that de- point and he never answered it satisfac- veloping countries should be entitled to torily. He acknowledged that a note had obtain a fair share of Australia's wheat been passed to the Australian Wheat at a fair price. Board. Why did he not acknowledge the not the Com- fact that secret service agents had en- Mr. MePharlin: Why did deavoured to bug the negotiating rooms monwealth Government accept 100 per and members of the Australian Wheat cent. responsibility? Board had been questioned? Mr. Brown:. Hang on a moment! Mr. W. 0. Young: Another Watergate! Mr. H4. D. EVANS: In exceptional cases Mr. H. D. EVANS: I could also mention credit could extend beyond 12 months. and, the direction given b3y Mr. Anthony In in line with the Government's principle, connection with the Chilean sales when the Wheat Board agreed to negotiate with members opposite talk about the Govern- Egypt on the basis of 12 months. ment involving Itself In the wheat trade for Mr. E. H. M. Lewis: For how many years political reasons. Let us look, In total per- has there been a contract? spective, at what has happened in the past [ASSEMBLY.) and at the attitude adopted towards unl- Wriedt) has indicated that he will hold developea countries at this time. I ask discussions with the A.W .F. This is the members opposite not to be hypocritical. position pertaining at the present time. The information should be quite clear. I thank members opposite for their contri- Mr. McPharlin: We are afraid of what butions, and I commend the Bill to the will happen in the next couple of years. House. Mr. H. D). EVANS: I am surprised the Question put and passed. Country Party had the temerity to raise Bill read a second time. this particular point, since its record Is what It is. However, I wish to clear our In Committee, etc. record on those several points. Bill passed through Committee without I do not think the total financing over debate, reported without amendment, and the period requires a great deal of elabora- the report adopted. tion. Members are familiar with the scheme. It virtually acts as a deposit Third Readingr arrangement where, in times of equitable prices, there is a payment In, and, In MR. H. D. EVANS (Warren-Minister times which are below norm so far as for Agriculture) [0.48 p.m.]: I move- prices are concerned, there Is a drawing That the Bill be now read a third out. It should be noted that this was one time. of the reasons for the review. Perhaps I could refer to the speech made MR. GAYFER (Avon) [9.49 p.m.J: I (1o in 1968 by the then Minister for Primary not intend, to weary the House by re- Industry. He drew attention to the fact peating the arguments which were raised tijat wheat stabilization needed reviewing during the second reading debate. Indeed, but no action was taken at that time. It I thought the subject of the sale of wheat was stated by the Minister that the amount to China and Egypt was fairly dealt with was $156,000,000, of which $95,000,000 was by members on this side of the House. As provided during the five years prior to the Bill goes to another place, I ask mem- 1967-68. This was taxpayers' money, of bers to consider it as a whole. course, and doubtless it was for this reason that the amendment to the Act was made I do not think members are aware that and the reference which I have Quoted in many countries of the world for hun- became a suggestion. dreds and indeed thousands of years the stabilization of wheat has been sought. However I acknowledge the point made We can trace stabilization back to the by the member for Roe that in the days of Babylon and Greece. Indeed, we differentiations of the export sales price can go back to the time when wheat was at the present time there Is a subsidy on the base product and food of mankind. the home Price. There is probably, too, a Throughout all those years, many coun- subsidy on other coarse grains which are tries have made various attempts to bring used, especially for stock food. While the ideas of stabilization to fruition. The basic exports are receiving the full world parity requirement in those days-and I say prices, home consumption is subject to In- this through you, Mr. Speaker, to the direct assistance which the wheat Industry Minister-was much the same as that gives. being strived for at present-a fair price This is a, matter which is acknowledged to the farmer and to the consumer, with and it is one which will be resolved in the sufficient incentive for the farmer to pro- total examination of the industry. I have duce enough wheat to feed the consumer. received the submission of the Australian This is the basic problem confronting the Wheatgrowers' Federation. I have had world today. discussions with the delegates of this State and I have had talks with the in- No barriers should be placed in the way dustry section of the Farmers' Union on of an international trade in wheat; I make this matter, Indeed, their briefing has that comment quite openly. I believe thae. been quite a thorough one and their views wheat sales should be negotiated in the with regard to the major issues such as market place in the light of the fact that the home consumption price, the extent of Australia is a fair oasis to produce suffici- the pool to be established, the need for a, ent grain to supplement the produce of continuing scheme for five years. the the world. So I have no real argument vexing question of stock food, export about who should trade with whom. I generally, first advance payments and have some argument, however, about who unauthorised dealings in wheat, as well as should not trade with whom because this sales of wheat to developing Countries cuts directly across what I have previously have been considered. said. All these matters as well as others have Recently I travelled right through been reviewed by this time and will be Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia, and discussed at the special meeting of the all over the Far East. I looked at the Australian Agricultural Council. The operations of the Australian Wheat Board, Minister for Primary Industry (Senator and I can tell members that the board [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 5889 is held in very high esteem by all the pull it down. I implore everyone in this in- countries which purchase wheat from dustry-the Grain Pool of Western Aus- Australia. tralia, the Barley Marketing Board, the I would also like to say that we are Australian Wheat Board, and everyone unique in the eyes of the countries we else-to be careful what they do. It has trade with because of the way in which we taken years to get unanimity in regard to handle the sale of our wheat and the stab- stabilization and to establish a workable ilization agreements which cover the pro- structure. We must lprotect this. duction of the wheat, protect the growers, and to an extent Protect the consumers. MR. H. D. EVANS (Warren-Minister This is the very thing which has been for Agriculture) (9.58 P.m.]: The member looked for 'through hundreds of years of for Avon knows that I respect his pro- civilisation. found knowledge of the wheat industry, and he also knows that I will consider his I have risen to my feet at this stage to comments. ask the Minister to ensure that future negotiations entered into at the level of Question Put and passed. the Australian Agricultural Council, and Bill read a third time and transmitted Bills presented before this House to ratify to the Council. the findings of that Council, will have re- gard for the interests of the growers as a SPECIAL HOLIDAYS BILL whole rather than the political aims of one country to the other. The Government Returned of the day must guard the situation so Bill returned from the Council with that there is no Possible loophole in any of the negotiations which would allow a amendments. Government now or in the future to make WHEAT DELIVERY QUOTAS ACT our wheat-our national product-a nego- inting instrument whether for so-called AMENDMENT BILL peace. for oil, or for anything else. Second Reading The Minister is charged with this duty. Debate resumed from the 14th Novem- and it is a great responsibility. We need ber. only one thrust of the sword and we will be back where we started from. At the rMr.. W. G. YOUNG (Roe) [10.00 p.m.]: present time, too much criticism is dir- This will give me some opportunity, I ected at the structure of our orderly hope, to make some statements I wanted marketing system which has taken liter- to make during debate on the third read- ally generations to set up. In the 1914-191D ing of the Wheat Industry Stabilization era our fathers talked of the dream we are Act Amendment Bill. This measure Is a now realising. I admit the system was not machinery Bill introduced to increase the introduced until 1948, and I could talk at Australian Wheat Board quota to Western some length about that point. However, I am not going to do that. In the future our Australia by some 20,000,000 bushels so State will have to work for and bargain to that the excess quota that has been protect the very structure of our industry. granted will act as an incentive to farmers The Government has a responsibility to to grow wheat throughout the Australian the growers of this State who possibly Commonwealth. fonn a different flock from the growers in Mr. O'Connor: You are going to oppose any other State of the Commonwealth. it, are you? It may be that I am talking a little over Mr. W. G. YOUNG: No, I am not going the heads of some members of this House, to oppose it. The situation is that the but I believe the Minister will get the mes- Commonwealth Government agreed to sage I am attempting to put across. If we grant an extra 20,000,000 bushels with a first start to tear down the structures I have advance quota over the 514,000,000 bushels spoken of and try to reconstruct wheat requested by the Australian Wheat Grow- boards and the orderly marketing systems ers' Federation, and this entitlement was for grain which we have built up over the to be spread over all the Australian main- years, we will tear down the backbone of land States. It so happened-and I think Australia. this will prove interesting to Western Aus- We are In a very fortunate and wonder- tralian growers-that Western Australia ful position in Australia. Our country has appears to be the only State that will be the greatest potential in the world so far taking up this extra wheat quota. as the production of primary grain re- quirements is concerned. I know that the In the circumstances I will not oppose Minister is off to Canberra to attend an- this piece of legislation, because it means other meeting of the Australian Agricul- that in the main advantages will be com- tural Council. The Commonwealth, the ing to the wheatgrowers of Western Aus- other States, and particularly this State, tralia. If the Western Australian wheat- must watch the structure of our system. growers are to be advantaged by this We must not be led into Pulling it to amount, It will certainly be in the interests pieces-it has taken a very long time to of not only the growers but also of the construct, and Yet it would be so easy to State of Western Australia as a whole. 5890 5800[ASSEMBLY.]

The first advance that will be made on Mr. W. 0. YOUNG: I agree with the this extra quota of 20,000,000 bushels of Minister but it has only come about as wheat will represent a considerable amount a result of a particularly good Season in of money to the people of Western Aus- this State and the unfortunate circum- tralia. While I am talking about the first stances that have occurred in the Eastern advance quota Price at $1.20 a bushel, I States. This has meant that we In West- would like to correct the member for ern Australia look like being the only State Merredln-Yilgarn and perhaps the Min- that will be able to accept this extra quota ister in regard to what they said. The first of 20,000,000 bushels, and I acknowledge advance of wheat for 1973-74 will not be at that it will be of great benefit not only the rate of $1.20 a bushel; it will be $1.10 a to the wheatgrowers, of Western Australia bushel with a 10c incentive, which is vir- but to the State as a whole, especially when tually coming out of the growers' pockets. we consider that this extra sale of wheat This means that they will get a second will bring in money as a first advance. advance on their wheat some five or six Therefore I support the second reading months before they should. It will not in- of the Bill. crease the price of wheat. The member for Merredin-Yilgarn said that this ad- MR. GRAYDEN (South Perth) [10.05 vance was to be made at the rate of $1.20 P.m 1: When the Minister introduced this a bushel, but it is $1.10 a bushel with a Bill'ihe indicated that one of its main pro- 10c incentive. visions will enable the Australian Wheat Mr. Brown: You are splitting straws Board to increase the existing quota by instead of growing grain. the metric equivalent of 20,000,000 bushels. In the circumstances I have no option but Mr. W. 0. YOUNG: This extra 10c will to support the Bill. In doing so I would come out of the packets of the wheat- like to make a few comments on the ques- growers. tion of quotas generally, because while I Mr. H. D. Evans: So does the $1.10. support the measure I cannot help believ- ing that at the moment we should be re- Mr. W. G. YOUNG: That is right. The thinking in regard to the question of Bill will only mean an early advance to Quotas. We should be thinking not only the wheat growers. The Minister also made about the suspension of quotas, but also great play of the extra, 20,000,000 bushels about their complete abolition. quota that will be coming to Western Aus- tralia. This i.s, only as a result of unfor- I say that because, while there will be tunate circumstances in the Eastern States. a record wheat production throughout the If every State in the Commonwealth had world this year, at the same time the con- enjoyed a good season, Western Australia sumption. of wheat is in excess of production may have received an extra quota of only The situation in America is that they are 4,000,000 or 5,000,000 bushels. so busily engaged in planting wheat that they are not able to export machinery to Mr. H. D. Evans: It is 20,000,000 bushels any great extent. As a consequence farmers over the total of 514,000,000 bushels, which throughout Australia are suffering from a, is not a bad incentive. shortage of American harvesters and other Mr. W. G. YOUNG: That is right, and agricultural machinery. it was to be spread over all the wheat- So although the world is producing huge growers of Australia. quantities of wheat, in the forthcoming Mr. H. D. Evans: Give the Federal Min- year consumption will outstrip production. ister credit for it. In addition, because of the dire shortages that were experienced recently various con- Mr. W. 0. YOUNG: I will, but I do not sumiing countries of the world will un- think the Minister in Western Australia doubtedly build up their stocks of wheat. can take credit for attracting the total In the circumstances It would appear to 20,000,000 bushels of wheat to Western me that there is a sound case for rethink- Australia, because this has come about ing the entire question of quotas in respect only as a result of unfortunate circum- of wheat, not only to the point of suspen- stances in the Eastern States. The Mdin- sion of quotas, but to the point of their ister will recall that I asked him a ques- abolition. The Farmers' Union shares this tion some time ago that in the event of more States sharing this extra 20,000,000 view up to a point. bushels we Should make representation to The Management committee of the wheat the Commonwealth Minister for Primary section of that union indicated recently Industry to ensure that all wheat grown it would recommend the suspension of and delivered in Western Australia would wheat quotas provided the Federal Govern- be accepted. ment guaranteed a minimum first advance of $1.20 per bushel on Australia's total Therefore I1 do not want to delay the wheat production. So even the manage- House unduly by speaking at length on ment cormittee of the wheat section of this Bill. We accept the measure because the Farmers' Union endorses the principle It means that it will be of benefit to West- of suspending wheat quotas and it has ern Australia. stated that It would agree to recommend- Mr. H. D. Evans: I'll say It will. Ing a suspension of wheat quotas in this [Wednesday, 5 December, 19731 595891

State in the event of the Federal Govern- member for Roe, but as circumstances have ment agreeing to the first advance of $1.20 eventuated it will indeed prove to be of & bushel on Australia's total wheat pro- benefit to Western Australia. duction. The member for South Perth touched in view of the introduction and develop- on the broad spectrum of quotas. As he ment of other crops that is occurring in suggested, it is a complex problem and is Western Australia this Is a sound move. interrelated firstly with the international For example, the production of rape in this scene because the grain situation generally State is quite extensive. We are also pro- indicates a bumper harvest in the United ducing record crops of barley and oats and, States of America where something like more importantly, we are producing large 14,000,000 acres is being brought back into quantities of lupins, All these are alterna- grain production. That is according to my tive crops to wheat. Many parts of West- understanding of the situation. There is ern Australia are eminently suited to the also a bumper harvest in the U.S.S.R. The production of lupins, but in these areas situation in Eastern Europe and mainland at the moment the farmers are often China has had a significant impact on the tied to the wheat quota system. They are fluctuation of world Prices. So does a producing wheat, but in fact they should major catastrophe in any one of those be producing lupins. They cannot afford countries. to do this and must continue to grow Probably it is a little early at this stage wheat because If they do not they will lose to foresee very clearly what the ultimate their quotas. grain position will be even next year. The I do not think the quota system can be question of a first advance to an unlimited Justified on economic grounds when we degree is one that will need close examina- take into consideration that on the outer tion by the Australian Government. I can fringes of the wheatbelt of Western Aus- recall that prior to the Introduction of Quotas in the season before this one, the tralia there are innumerable farms in Gurley Station in New South Wales pro- the low rainfall area-possibly they only duced something like 500,000 bushels and have a rainfall of between nine and 11 this, together with other factors, was one inches. The farmers in this area cannot of the reasons quotas were introduced. diversify their activities by growing lupins, oats, or rape. So in the event of the Quota This Is Probably one of the deterrents system being continued, virtually they must to giving a blank cheque as has been sug- place their farms In mothballs. We have gested. However, I agree with the mem- this huge area in the wheatbelt of West- ber for South Perth that a revision of ern Australia, comprising mainly light rain- wheat quotas must be tackled, and it is fall areas, where farmers are unable to my understanding that the Australian diversify their cropping. If wheat quotas Government has been busily involved 'with were abolished we would have a situation in this question, those areas with lighter soils and season- He referred to the diversification of able rainfall, that farmers holding huge crops in Western Australia. This Involves wheat quotas would be able to diversify basic economics of a particular area and their activities by growing lupins which the overall net return the farmer will get are readily saleable because of their high from one crop versus another. The hen- protein content. Huge quantities of lupins curable member is perfectly right lin that are wanted overseas. it comes back to a business transaction. However, Therefore there is a definite case for as he said we cannot direct that rethinking on the question of wheat quotas those areas most suited for wheat should at present. I do not want to delay the be devoted to wheat and those more ade- quately suited to other crops should be passage of the Bill, because I have indi- devoted cated that it simply contains a provision to other crops. to increase Western Australia's wheat Mr. Gayfer: Especially as other grains quota by the amount suggested; that is, are under orderly marketing. the metric equivalent of 20,000,000 bushels. Mr. H. D. EVANS: Yes. And also the That is something which every member Price Is involved. of this House should support. I repeat that I thank members for their contribution whilst discussing legislation of this kind to the debate, and commend the Bill to we should bear in mind that because of the the 'House. changed circumstances in regard to the growing of wheat there Is a definite need Question put and passed. to have a rethink on the question of wheat Bill read a second time. quotas. In Committee, etc. Bill passed through Committee without MR. H. D. EVANS (Warren-Minister debate, reported without amendment, and for Agriculture) [10.12 p.m.]: I thank the report adopted. members opposite for their contributions to this Bill. It is a measure that will give Third Reading Western Australia a deal of advantage. It Bill read a third time, on motion by was not specifically framed for this pur- Mr. H. D. Evans (Minister for Agriculture), pose initially, as was pointed out by the and transmitted to the Council. 5892 [ASSEMBLY.)

DAYLIGHT SAVING (REFERENDUM) we reiterate that the Liberal Party is not BILL voting on Party lines on the matter Of Second Reading daylight saving. The Bill does not deal only with day- Debate resumed from the 28t November. light saving. It is designed to enable a referendum to be held in order that the MR. O'NEIL (East Melville-Deputy Opinion of the majority of the electors of Leader of the Opposition) [10.10 p.m.]: Western Australia might be ascertained. For I think, the third or. perhaps, the Let me hazard a guess that, having regard fourth time the Government has intro- for the great number of People who live in duced legislation relating to the very vexed the metropolitan area as distinct from question of daylight saving. On one occa- those who live in the more remote parts sion when the subject was before the and rural Parts of the State, In my view House I indicated that personally I fav- the referendum has a fairly substantial oured daylight saving in Western Austra- chance of being successful. Not all mem- lia. I did however, object to calling it day- bers on this side share that view, but I light saving. I think it should have been a hazard a guess that the voting strength of Bill to maintain the two-hour time differ- the metropolitan region would certainly ence between the eastern and western outweigh any major vote against daylight seaboards. saving that could be obtained from the country, It is generally accepted that whilst a Mr. Bickerton: That applies to every- majority-small or great, I do not know- thing. of those people who live in the metro- politan area, and certainly those who reside Mr. W. 0. Young: How true. in the far north of our State, would Mr. O'NEIL: Probably; but let us con- appreciate daylight saving as such because fine our remarks to the Proposition cur- of the additional leisure hours with sun- rently before us. As I mentioned, this Bill light which would be available to them is not designed to establish daylight sav- during our summer months, it is equally ing forever and a day, but to establish day- true that the great majority of people who light saving for a period from Sunday, the reside in our rural areas do not want day- 27Tth October, 1974, to Sunday, the 2nd light saving, and their reasons are many March, 1975: and that is all. So those and varied and have been canvassed in People who support a "Yes" vote in the this Chamber and in another place on referendum will be voting for daylight the occasions the question of dayllight sav- saving during next summer only. I think ing has been discussed. that point must be made perfectly clear. On this occasion the Government is I1supported the Proposition that we have legislating for a referendum for a trial a trial period of daylight saving this sum- period. I think the first Bill on the sub- mer, but that proposition was not sup- ject was designed to create daylight saving Ported by both Houses of Parliament and as a permanent institution during certain so we did not have a trial period. I also months of every year. On the second hazard a guess that had the people of occasion the legislation was designed to Western Australia experienced a trial introduce daylight saving for a period of Period this summer then perhaps their trial this year. Both those Bills were vote in respect of a referendum on the rejected in another place, although in subject would have been different. I can- some respects they were supported by not think of a worse time to bold a refer- some members on this side of the House endum on daylight saving that after the in this Chamber and certainly by some end of a long, hot summer. The Bill members of the Opposition parties in an- Provides the machinery to enable a refer- other place. endum to be conducted It states quite clearly that the question which will be put It is true, too, that the Liberal Party, as to the People will be- the Opposition in Western Australia, has been accused of preventing the Govern- Are You in favour of standard time ment's proposal with respect to daylight in the State being advanced one hour saving. No matter how often the true during the period from Sunday, 27th position has been stated publicly and In October. 1974 until Sunday, 2nd March. this House, that is the impression that 1975? is abroad, and I think the Government, That 'will be the question the electors will to any degree it is able to, encourages that be asked to answer. At the back of the impression; and that is its right. Bill is a form C which indicates the form However, we have said on many occa- the ballot paper for the referendum will sions that on this Issue, as on others, be- take. cause our members represent the remotest The Bill Is unusual in one respect, in that parts of the State and the metropolitan clause 2 which deals with the commence- area, there is a legitimate difference of ment of the operation of the Bill Is divided opinion amongst members in respect of Into two subclauses, the first indicating their attitudes because of the wishes of that the Provisions of the Act, other than those in their electorates. So, once again, the Provisions of part lII, will come into [Wednesday, 5 December. 19731 5893

operation on the date on which the Act The Premier also advised us that If the receives the Royal Assent. I want to make referendum were held on the same day as a comment about that provision. It con- a general election the cost would be the tains an unusual expression in a Statute amount previously quoted plus an addi- In Western Australia. I understand that tional cost for some advertising and addi- it is in fact a Procedure adopted in Com- tional Polling officers, anid so on. Conse- monwealth Bills because when a Hill Passes quently one could add to that figure and the Federal Parliament it is proclaimed say that for a referendum held concur- within a certain Period unless it contains rently, as the Bill expresses it. with a that provision. However, for some reason conjoint election, the cost could be In the expression has been included In the excess of 8200,000--perhaps $210,000 or Bill before us. $220,000. I was a little concerned as to whether Mr. Bickerton: The way to overcome that It meant the Hill Itself had to be reserved expenditure would be to convince those in for Her Majesty's consent as some are, another Place to permit daylight saving to but that Is not the case as I learnt when be introduced. I checked on the matter. Mr. O'NETL: I am not complaining about Clause 2 (2) Provides that part III of the cost. I am stating that, as far as the the Act-that is, the part which deals Government is able to advise, that is the specifically with the daylight saving ques- situation. It is on that basis that we can tion-will come Into operation on a date consider whether a referendum ought to on which a statement referred to in clause be held on the same day as a conjoint 12 Is Published in the Government Gazette. election f or both Houses of this Parlia- The statement referred to in clause 12 ment. deals with the answer to the question to be asked at the referendum. in other It seems to mne, looking at the national words, It will contain the result of the scene, that the Commonwealth Govern- referendum. ment is bent on holding a considerable One of the reasons for opposition to day- number of referendums In conjunction with light saving previously was the lack of the Senate election which is timed for knowledge of many members as to Just some time next April, as far as we are what the people really wanted. It has been able to ascertain. As far as T understand said on many occasions that the argu- the situation, eight propositions, either ments for and against did not come in confirmed or hinted at, concerning the in the manner in which one imagined they Constitution, were to be put before the would. On the first occasion It was said Australian people at the next Senate elec- that most people believed that daylight tion. saving was a foregone conclusion and Quite frankly, I could not envisage a therefore those who supported the Proposi- more confusing situation than that. A tion did not do anything about it. whereas matter of eight questions were to be put those who had reason to fear that day- to the People but T think the Senate has light saving would affect them and their reduced that figure somewhat. However, industry certainly raised their voices. For if a number of questions aimed at altening that reason a great many members of the Australian Constitution are put to the Parliament voted against the Bill because people Jointly with a Senate election I they had been Presented with only one cannot see that the result will be aL con- side of the argument. The proposition In sidered decision of the People. It would the Bill before us certainly provides for probably be a matter of simply following both sides of the argument to be recorded. the line of voting according to how-to-vote We were a little concerned when the cards. To my way of thinking It would be proposition first came before us as to far too confusing to conduct a referendum whether the costs involved in conducting on the same day as a Senate election. a referendum would warrant such action. clause 10 refers to a referendum being The questions I asked the Premier were held concurrently with a general election, related to the estimate of the cost today and the action which needs to be taken of conducting a referendum. 'The answer to ensure that that does occur. We dis- given was as near as it could be to a agree with the Proposition to hold a refer- reasonable estimate. It was indicated that endum on the same day as a State elec- If a referendum were held separately from tion, whereas we do agree with the propo- a general election the cost, In round figures, sition of the Government to obtain an indi- would be $190,000 exclusive of printing, cation of the opinion of the people by way advertising, temporary assistance, over- of a referendum. time, postage, Phone calls, stationery, and It is our Intention, when In Committee, stores. to move the appropriate amendments I am hazarding a guess-although any- which are designed to ensure that, firstly, one can challenge me in respect of this the referendum in respect of the trial remark-that those Items could reasonably period of daylight saving will not be held be expected to cost no less than $10,000 on the same day as a general election anid. which would put the cost of a referendum, In fact, will not be held prior to the 1st In round figures, at approximately $200,000. July, 1974. The Minister has received a 5894 [ASSEMBLY.]

copy of my proposed amendment and the MR. MePHARLIN (Mt. Marshall) [10.35 Clerks have some copies available. The p.m.]: We have heard debates on the mat- amendment will not have to be placed on ter of daylight saving previously when Bills the notice paper for consideration to- have been brought to this House. Members morrow if the Bill is to pass through this from this side have put forward their argu- Chamber tonight. ments, and we have stated why we do not I have referred to the proposed amend- approve of daylight saving. We have heard ments but there is another matter in re- those arguments several times and we do spect of clause 6 and I do not know not wish to go over them again at this whether the Minister's attention has been stage because the Bill is not for the actual drawn to it. In the first line of clause introduction of daylight saving, but for a 6 (2) (b) there appears to be a super- referendum to decide whether or not the people of this State are in accord, or other- fluous word. I refer to the word "same".* It may well be that the Minister will take wise, with the introduction of daylight action to have the word deleted because it saving. serves no purpose so far as I can see. When the Minister introduced the Bill he My Proposed amendment relates to said it would be possible to select any day clause 10 and has two purposes: To ensure for the holding of a referendum including that the referendum is not held on a the day of the next general election, but general election day, and to ensure that not necessarily on that day. Because the it is not held on any day prior to the day of the general election is not pre- 1st July, 1974. cluded, it could be held on that day, and I consider that would create confusion. A Mr. Bickerton: The situation of the cost general election day would not be a suit- can be overcome by moving an amendment able day on which to hold a referendum. that daylight saving be introduced, pro- vided the members in another place can The Minister commented that Queens- be convinced. land does not have daylight saving but at least that State had a trial period. The Mr. O'NEIL: I am not in a position to judgment in Queensland was based both convince the members in the other House. on theory and practice. However, it was 11am in a position to state my case in this considered to be unsatisfactory in Queens- House and the Government has the num- land and when the measure next came be- bers to do what it likes no matter what fore Parliament it was rejected. The people my opinion might be. in that State must have had good reasons Mr. May: The same situation prevails because they did not want the reintroduc- in the other House. tion of daylight saving. We know that in this State a number of Mr. O'NEIL: I personally do not object trade unions were against daylight saving to daylight saving. as were a number of other organisations Mr. Bickerton: Then why not amend the including the motion picture industry. Bill In that manner and send it to the other place to see what happens. Mr. May: The farmers were against it. Mr. O'NEIL: We have already tried to Mr. McPHARLIN: Not only the farmers. do that on two occasions but the Mr. May: Is our situation different from Council wa-s not prepared to agree. that in the Eastern States? On this third occasion the Government Proposal is to hold a referendum for a Mr. Bickerton: The crows still crow when trial period of daylight saving and we the sun comes up. support that proposition. At least, I sup- Mr. McPHARLIN: A total of 86 trade port it; I do not know how my colleagues unions in this State were not in favour of will vote. It is certainly my view that a daylight saving. referendum should not be held on a polling day, and in order to do that I propose to Mr' Bickerton: I do not think that would move an amendment. make any difference to the cows. Mr. Bickerton: How can a referendum The SPEAKER: Order! be held if it is not held on a polling day? Mr. MePHARLIN: We do not want to go Mr. O'NEIL: I ask the Minister to keep into previous debates. This measure is to quiet and after I sit down he will have decide whether or not we agree to the hold- an opportunity to speak. ing of a referendum. Mr. Bickerton: The Deputy Leader of Mr. Bickerton: The cows do not vote. the Opposition referred to a polling day. Mr. McPHARIJN: I consider that each Mr. O'NEIL: Of course, I meant the day of us has had some time to think about a of a general election. referendum because some suggestions were made along these lines during the debate Mr. Bickerton: Thank you. in October, I think it was, in 1972. At that Mr. O'NEIL: Also, my amendment pro- time it was suggested that perhaps it would poses the date be not before the 1st July, be better to give the people an opportunity 1974. to indicate by way of a referendum [Wednesday, 5 December, 1973] 589589 whether or not they wanted daylight sav- Mr. McPHARLU4: Perhaps they may ing. Several members spoke on that par- fear that they may be beaten. My opinion ticular issue at the time, but the Govern- is that if this matter went to a referendum ment rejected the idea because it did not it would not be successful. want a referendum. Mr. May; Why not try it out? It now appears that the Government has given the proposal further thought-hav- Mr. McPHARLIN:. The attitude expressed ing rejected the idea in 1972-and is put- by many people is that we should not have ting the proposition forward hoping that daylight saving and that we should not we on this side of the House will agree have a referendum. However, I think I toit. would now be inclined to agree with the suggestion put forward by the Deputy Mr. May: That is only because it 'was Leader of the Opposition in the form of rejected in the Legislative Council. the amendment which he has circularised. Mr. McPHARLIN: Well, the Government The Deputy Leader of the Opposition pro- rejected the proposal put forward in 1972 poses to move for the deletion of clause 10 when it was suggested that a referendum and the insertion of a substitute clause. held. The purpose of the amendment is that the be referendum shall not be held on the day Mr. May: It would have been knocked of an election, and not before the 1st July, back by the Legislative Council. 1974, Mr. MoPHARLIN: The Government has Daylight saving could not be introduced now decided to have another look at the before the next summer period because matter, this swumner is already on its way and it Mr. May: To let the people have a look is too late to introduce it. For that reason at it. there is no great urgency and by holding off we will have plenty of time during Mr. Bickerton: The main objection was which to go into the matter of holding a that it would upset the cows and the fowls referendum. but they do not have a vote. Mr. May: The honourable member agrees The SPEAKER: Order! that we should have a referendum? Mr. MePHARLIN: The Minister is being Mr. MePHARLIN: I do not think there facetious. should be any urgency. Mr. Bickerton: I am not. That was Mr. May: But you agree that we should the reason put forward for not accepting have a referendum? daylight saving. The Leader of the Coun- Mr. MePHARLIN: I am not so sure that try Party said it would upset the cows. I agree absolutely; it is a good Idea. The SPEAKER: Order! Mr. May: But you just said you did Mr. MePHARLIN: The Minister knows agree. there were many reasons, and one reason Mr. McPHARLN: Perhaps it would be was the transport of children on school a method by which we could get a decision. buses. We would know what the people thought Mr. Bickerton: Rubbish! about daylight saving and that Informa- tion could be a guide for any future action. Mr. May: How is the situation different I have always maintained that a system from New South Wales? Do not try to of staggered hours is the answer to the tell me it is diffecrent from New South question, particularly in the metropolitan Wales and Victoria. area. Such a system would satisfy the large Mr. MoPHARLIN: I will not go into financial concerns which claim that day- details of the actual debate as to whether light saving is to their disadvantage. or not daylight saving should be intro- Mr. May: Why the big financial conf- duced. This measure is to decide whether cerns? or not we agree to the proposal for a referendum. Mr. McPKARLIN: They are the ones which claim that they lose money by not I can say with certainty that the major- being able to take advantage of invest- ity of people in my electorate would be ments. I am talking about the organisa- opposed to daylight saving. tions which deal in millions of dollars at Mr. May: But are we not talking about a half per cent, profit. a referendum now? Mr. Bickerton: What Is the main objec- Mr. McPHARLIN: But I think my elec- tion in the electorate represented by the tors would expect me not to agree to a honourable member? I ask the question referendum. I feel that attitude would be quite seriously. truly representative of the majority of my Mr. McPHARIN; There is the matter electors, they would prefer not to have a of parents and their school children travel- referendum. ling in the hottest part of the day, and Mr. Bickerton: Why, because they might the children arriving home while the day be beaten? is still very hot. 5896 (ASSEMBLY.]

The SPEAKER: I think the Leader of entertainment. I glanced at this evening's the Country Party is getting away from Daily News and noticed that the advertise- the Bill. ment for the film "The Corpse Grinders" states that It "turns bones and flesh into Mr. McPHARLIN: I am sorry. Mr. screaming savage blood". Speaker. I was answering a query from the Minister. 'The SPEAKER: That has nothing to do with the Bill. The SPEAKER: Do not be distracted by the Minister. Mr. HARMAN: We propose that a refer- Mr. Hutchinson: Ignore the Minister. endum be held to allow the people to vote on daylight saving. Legislation for the Mr. McPHARLIN: The Minister has introduction of daylight saving has been heard the arguments before, and I agree defeated three times and we consider the I should not have fallen into the trap. people should be given the opportunity Representing an electorate such as his, to decide the issue. he would not know. The Deputy Leader of the Opposition Mr. Bickerton: I have no objectors in will have to Put UP a better argument on my electorate. I cannot understand why clause 10 of the Bill before he will get you have them In yours. our support. To hold a referendum on aL The SPEAKER: Order! day other than a polling day will cost something like $200,000. if it were held Mr. MoPHARLIN: I would be prepared in conjunction with an election for both to give consideration to the amendment Houses, the costs of the referendum and that has been foreshadowed. I would be election would be absorbed a refer- the general more Inclined to support holding and the overall cost would be no more endum en a day which was not an election than the cost of a general election, except day and not before the final day of July, for additional printing. advertisinlg, per- 1974. It Is not necessary to hold a referen- haps a few more officials, and so on. dum early in the New Year because day- Leader of the opposition is light saving could not be introduced until The Deputy really saying that the State-in other next year. I am not sure what other Pay Out of my party think about the words, the taxpayers-should members another $200,000 in order to hold a ref eren- amendment. They can speak for them- which is not the day Of a I think it is a sensible amendment. dumn on a day selves. general election. I would need much more convincing that the taxpayers of this State MR. HARMAN (Maylands--Minister should be put to that expense. for Labour) fl0.47 p.m.]: I thank the along with all the fuss about and the I do not go Deputy Leader of the Opposition people being confused when they vote at Leader of the Country Party for their re- a general election, without having to face marks. up to a referendum. In the referendum Mr. O'Neil: And the Minister for Hous- the question asked will be very simple; ing. namely- Mr. HARMAN: I agree with the Deputy Are you in favour of standard time Lcader of the Opposition that people in in the State being advanced one hour the community, even In circles which one during the period from Sunday, 27th would think were dominated by people of October, 1974 until Sunday, 2nd the Opposition's persuasion, are blaming March, 1975? the Liberal Party because they do not have 1 cannot see people being confused about daylight saving now. The Country Party, that. I appreciate the support for the which was largely responsible for the de- second reading, at least. feat of the Bill in the other House, seems Question put and passed. to go without any blame. I always laugh a second time. to myself when the comment Is made out- Bill read side the House that the drive-in motion In Committee picture industry had some influence on the it to vote The Deputy Chairman of Committees Liberal Party In persuading in the Chair; Mr. Har- against daylight saving. (Mr. A. R. Tonkin) man (Minister for Labour) in charge of Mr- O'Neil: They did not all vote against the Bill. daylight saving. Clauses 1 to 5 put and passed. Mr. HARMAN: On one occasion the Clause 6: issue of writ for referendum- argument was put that daylight saving Mr. HARMAN: I indicate to the Deputy would interfere with family entertainment. Leader of the opposition that I recognise The SPEAKER: I think the Minister is the necessity to remove the word "same". getting away from the Bill. but in order to save additional printing I will arrange for this to be done in the Mr. HARMAN: On that occasion it was other Chamber. pointed out that almost all the drive-ins Clause put and passed. in the metropolitan area were showing "B" certificate films, which are not family Clauses '7to 9 put and passed. [Wednesday, 5 December, 19732 589789

Clause 10: Issue of ballot papers gen- not sure that holding referendums Is the erally, and special provisions for postal right thing to do. How many referendums voting, absent voting, etc.- should we have on various subjects that come before this Chamber? During this Mr. O'NEIL: This gives me an opportun- year we have dealt with many subjects ity to reply to the interjection made by the of far greater importance than daylight Minister for Housing during the second saving. H-ow far should we go? Why are reading debate When he said we could not we here? Are we not here to make decis- hold a referendum other than, on a poll- ions? ing day. He is wrong because a referendum is described as a "day for the taking of Mr. Harman: We have not had three the votes of the electors" and a polling Bills on each of the other matters rejected day is confined to an election day. In by the Legislative Council. other words, we do not have a poll for a Mr. W. A. MANNING: I am suggesting referendum; we have a day for taking the that this Chamber should take the res- votes of electors. ponsibility of dealing with these matters. Mr. Biokerton: I did not hear your re- On this occasion I am prepared to go marks. along with a referendum an daylight sav- ing, but it Is important to give the people Mr. O'NEIL: I suggest the Minister read an opportunity to express their opinions In them in Hansard. It is necessary for me the best possible way. There is no advantage to vote against clause 10 In order to re- In having a referendum at an early date place it with a new clause. The amend- because it is too late to implement the ment does not appear on the notice paper schemne for this summer. and it has been circulated only to a limited Mr. May: Whose fault Is that? number of members. I therefore indicate that I think clause 10 should read as fol- Mr. W. A. MANNING: I am not talking lows-- about fault. I am dealing with the situation as It exists. 10. (1) The votes of the elec- Mr. Gayfer: You could have had a refer- tors on the prescribed endum before but you voted against it. question shall not be taken on the day of an Mr. W. A. MANNING: I supported a election, and not before referendum last year but the Government the first day of July, rejected the idea, so it cannot get any 1974. points there. (2) The provisions of the The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mr. A. R. Electoral Act, 1907 re- Tonkin): Order! This is not a second reading lating to postal voting, debate. We are debating Clause 10 absent voting and vot- of the Bill. ing pursuant to section Mr. W. A. MANNING: I am aware of 122A of that Act apply that but in order to speak to clause 10 with such modifications we must speak to the proposed new clause. as are necessary to vot- ing on the prescribed The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; I san draw- question. ing your attention to the fact that we are not debating whether or not a referendum The machinery in clause 10 relating to .should be held; that is a subject for dis- the Electoral Act is saved by virtue of cussion in a second or third reading speech the second proposed subsection, but the onl the whole Bill. The matter before the first proposed subsection is the key. I have Chair is clause 10. to go to this extent in order to have my intention recorded in Hansard, but I indi- Mr. W. A. MANNING: I was pointing cut cate that we on this side of the House will the effects of the proposed new clause, vote against clause 10. until the Minister Interjected. The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes, well, Mr. MoPHARLIN: We support the new ignore the lnterJectlons. clause 10 which the Deputy Leader of the Opposition proposes to move. We feel It Mr. W. A. MANNING: There is no point would be preferable to hold the referendum in holding a referendum at an early date on the date suggested. because we could not implement daylight saving this summaer. Therefore, it would Mr. HARMAN: I ask the Conirnittee to be better to remove the referendum from vote for clause 10 as it stands In the Bill. the influence of a State general election, a The Deputy Leader of the Opposition did Federal Senate election, or a Federal refer- not present any further argument to that endum and to hold it in July of next year. he had already given. That will give us ample time to Implement the scheme next summer If that is the Mr. W. A. MANNING: I must speak to wish 6f the voters. the proposed new clause before the clause Mr. Hutchinson. It might have a better is passed, If the Minister has his way. I na chance in the winter months. ('gal 5898 5898COUNCIL,]

Mr. Taylor: And after New South Wales The amendment on which the Council has voted for It at a referendum. insisted was as follows- Mr. W. A. MANNING: That is right; No. 2. there are many reasons why the referendum Clause 5, page 3.Iline 19-Add the should not be held earlier than nest July. following after the word "pre- I think the proposed new clause of the seribed"'- Deputy Leader of the opposition Is an Provided however that the Dir- excellent one. ector shall not take any action Clause put and a division taken with the to dispose of any such article or following result- thing unless he shall have given Ayes-22 not less than one month's notice Mr. Bateman Mr. T, D. Evans in writing to such person of his Mr. Bertram Mr. Fletcher Mr. Bickerton Mr. Harmian intention in that behalf. Mr. Brady Mr. Hartrey Mr. Brown Mr. Lapham Mr. DAVIES: The amendment made by Mr. Bryce Mr. May the Council relates to the way In which Mr. B. T5. 'Burke Mr. Norton goods left in the charge of the Mental Mr. T. J. Burke Mr. Sewell Health Services by patients whose where- Mr. Cook Mr. Taylor Mr. Davies Mr. J. T. Tonkin abouts are no longer known shall be dis- Mr. H. D. Evans Mr. Moiler posed of. It was the Government's In- (Teller) tenition to promulgate regulations to pre- Noes-22 scribe the manner in which the goods air Charles Court Mr. O'Connor should be disposed of. We advised the Mr. Coyne Mr. O~ell Council on a previous occasion that we be- LDr.Detour Mr. Ridge lieved its amendment was unnecessary and Mir, Gayfer ,Mr. Eunciman redundant, because the matter would be Mr. Grayden Mr. Rushton Mr. Hutchinson Mr. Sibson covered in the regulations. Mr. A. A. Lewis Mr. Stephens mi. EI. H. M. Lewis Mr. Thbmpscn I indicated previously that I would let Mr. W. A. Manning Mr. 11, L. Young the member for Cottesloe know when the Mr. MePharlila Mr. W. U. Young Mr. Mensaroe My, 1. W. Manning regulations are promulgated so that he (Teller) could check them. I believe that would Pairs fully cover the position. In fact, the Ayes Noes regulations probably would say just what Mr. Jaieson Sir David Brand the Council's amendment says. At first I Mr. McIver Mr. Raider was of a mind to take this matter to a Mr. Jones Mr. Blalkie conference of managers; however. I was The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The voting told by a member of the Legislative Council being equal, I give my casting vote with that the Law Society requested this amend- the Ayes. ment amongst a number of amendments Presented to the Attorney-General. The Clause thus Passed. Attorney-General cannot recall seeing this Clauses 11 to 18 put and passed. Particular amendment; but I will not argue that point. I do not believe the amend- Schedule put and passed. ment is necessary, but I am prepared to Title put and passed. agree to It to save time. I move- Report That amendment No. 2 insisted on Bill reported, without amendment, and by the Council be no longer disagreed the report adopted. to. Question put and passed. Third Reading Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr. Report Harman (Minister for Labour), and trans- Resolution reported, the report adopted. mitted to the Council. and a message accordingly returned to the Council. MENTAL HEALTH ACT AMENDMENT House adjourned at 11.11 p.m. BILL Council's Message Message from the Council notifying that it insisted on its amendment No. 2 to which the Assembly had disagreed now consid- i~vnttin (Jnnwt ered. Thursday, the 6th December, 1973 In Committee The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Mr. A. Rt. Tonkin) in the Chair; Mr. The PRESIDENT (The Hon. L. C. Diver) Davies (Minister for Health) in charge took the Chair at 2.30 P.m., and read of the Bill. prayers.