Xte- — ^ ^ &&ÙN£ OFFICIAL REPORT i7 JUIL 1981, UNREVISED

ZIMBABWE

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

Vol. 2 No. 1. Tuesday, 19th August, 1980.

CONTENTS

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR. SPEAKER: Unnecessary Interjections.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION: Reply to Statement by the Minister of Information and Tourism.

MOTION: A.D.F. Appointment of Select Committee. Finance Bill: Budget Debate. Adjournment of the House: Lt.-General Peter Walls.

FIRST READING: Finance BilL

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: Main Estimates of Expenditure: Vote No 24.

V Printed by Order of The House of Assembly

Three Cents PRINCIPAL OFFICERS OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

SPEAKER: THE HON. DIDYMUS NOEL EDWIN MUTASA

DEPUTY SPEAKER AND CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: SIMBARASHE SIMBANENDUKU MUMBENGEGWI, Esq., M.P.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: ENOS CHAMUNORWA CHIKOWORE, Esq., M.P.

SECRETARY TO PARLIAMENT* M. A. VAN RYNEVELD, Esq.

DEPUTY SECRETARY TO PARLIAMENT: L. B. MOORE, Esq.

THE MINISTRY

Prime Minister ■ The Hon. Robert Gabriel Mugabe, M.P. Minister of Defence

Deputy Prime Minister ...... ■ The Hon. Simon Vengayi Muzenda, M.P. Minister of Foreign Affairs ......

Minister of Home Affairs ...... The Hon. Joshua Mqabuko Nkomo, M.P. Minister of Economic Planning and Development Senator Dr. the Hon. Bernard Thomas Chidzere

Minister of the Public Service . The Hon. Richard Chemist Hove, M.P. Minister of Transport and Power The Hon. Ernest Rusununguko Kadungurc, M.P.

Minister of Labour and Social Services .... The Hon. Kumbirai Manyika Kangai, M.P. Minister of Natural Resources and Water Development Senator the Hon. Joseph Wilfred Msika

Minister of Justice and Constitutional Affairs . Senator the Hon. Simbi Veke Mubako Minister of Works The Hon. Clement Muchachi, M.P. Minister of State in the Prime Minister's Office The Hon. Emmerson Dambudzo Mnangagwa, M.P.

Minister of Education and Culture .... The Hon. Dzingai Barnabas Mutumbuka, M.P. The Hon. Mrs. Teurai Minister of Youth, Sport and Recreation .. Ropa Nhongo, M.P. Minister of Finance Senator the Hon. Enos Mzombi Nkala Minister of Agriculture Senator the Hon. Denis Robert Norman

Minister of Mines and Energy Resources . > The Hon. Tapfumaneyi Maurice Nyagumbo, M.P. Minister of Lands, Resettlement and Rural Development Dr. the Hon. Sydney Tigere Sekeramayi, MJP.

Minister of Information and Tourism .. . Dr. the Hon. Nathan Shamuyarira, M.P. Minister of Roads and Road Traffic, Posts ant Telecommunications The Hon. Tarcisius George Silundika, M.P. Minister of Commerce and Industry The Hon. David Colville Smith, G.L.M., I.C.D., M.P. Minister of Manpower Planning and Development The Hon. Edgar Zivanai Tekere, M.P. Minister of Health Dr. the Hon. Herbert Sylvester Masiyiwa Ushewokunze, M.P.

The Hon. Eddison Jonas Mudadirwa Minister of Local Government and Housing . Zvobgo, M.P.

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs .... Dr. Witness Magunda Mangwende, M.P. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs Senator Tarisai Ziyambi Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Services Robson Dayford Manyika, Esq., M.P. Deputy Minister of Education and Culture Mrs. Victoria Fikile Chitepo, M.P. Deputy Minister of Youth, Sport and Recreation Cephas George Msipa, Esq., M.P.

Deputy Minister of Finance ...... Dr. Oliver Musa Munyaradzi, M.P. Deputy Minister of Agriculture Simba Herbert Stanley Makoni, Esq., M.P. Deputy Minister of Mines and Energy Resources Jini Enock Gwaula Ntuta, Esq., M.P. Deputy Minister of Lands, Resettlement and Rura Development Moven Enock Mahachi, Esq., M.P, Deputy Minister of Roads and Road Traffic, Posts and Telecommunications Dr. Naomi Pasiharigutwi Nhiwatiwa, M.P.

Deputy Minister of Commerce and Industry . Moses Jackson Mvenge, Esq., M.P. Deputy Minister of Health Simon Charles Mazorodze, Esq., M.P. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing Godfrey Guwa Chidyausiku, Esq., M.P. 1 Personal Explanation— 19th AüGUST, 1980. Reply to Statement. 2

PARLIAMENT OF ZIMBABWE I repeat what I said on a previous occasion about certain practices detracting Tuesday, 19th August, 1980 from the dignity of Parliament and must

The House of Assembly met at a point out that the contraventions of the rules of debate in which hon. members have Quarter-past Two o'clock p.m. recently indulged have done precisely this. PRAYERS I would once more appeal to hon. mem¬ (MR. SPEAKER in the Chair) bers to desist from the undesirable practices ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR. SPEAKER I have mentioned. Failure to do so will necessitate sterner measures on my part. UNNECESSARY USE OF INTERJECTIONS PERSONAL EXPLANATION

MR. SPEAKER: Before proceeding with REPLY TO STATEMENT BY THE the business for to-day, I must remind the MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND House of my comments on 18th June, regard¬ TOURISM ing the unnecessary use of interjections, and my statement that all hon. members have an MR. IAN SMITH: I wish to reply to the equal opportunity to speak if they so desire. Minister of Information and Tourism and I also drew attention to the provisions of the statement he made in this House last Standing Order No. 52, which clearly state Friday morning, in which he made an un¬ that no hon. member shall interrupt another fortunate and unwarranted attack on myself hon. member while speaking, save with the and,my Party. I have no intention of in¬ consent of that hon. member. volving myself in the affairs of General Walls as this is none of my business. I am Unhappily my appeal to hon. members happy, to give a categorical assurance to this to discontinue these interjections has been House that the first time I heard of Opera¬ disregarded. I repeat, it is not the custom tion was saw of this House for hon. members to remain Quartz, when I it in the communications media last week. My in¬ seated and shout across the Chamber. This vestigations confirm "that other'members of is unfair to those hon. members who are my party are in the same position. I note speaking. If an hon. member wishes to with interest, however, that in to-day's intervene, will he please stand up and ask press, John Ellison, the author of the origi¬ the hon. member who is speaking, if he will nal article from what the Minister give way. quoted, states that the case presented by Another disturbing feature is the increas¬ the Minister to Parliament was a distortion ing use by hon. members of derogatory, of the truth. This is a grave charge because disrespectful, offensive or unbecoming words it reflects on the integrity of the Minister. against other hon. members, which is a contravention of the provisions of Standing I have 'before me a copy of the article Order No. 59. I must point out that the from what the Minister quoted and I find, right of freedom of speech and debate con¬ like John Ellison, that the Minister has ferred upon hon. members by the Privileges, deliberately excised portions which did Immunities and Powers of Parliament Act, not fit in with his version of the story. carries with it a corresponding obligation I quote: "It now seems certain that Lord to be factual .and responsible at all times. Soames" — I quote from the text of thé Accordingly, hon. members must accept original article — "It now seems certain responsibility for what they say and should that 'Lord Soames and the British had at not make unfounded allegations or state¬ least an inkling of Quartz". Why did the Minister hide this ments they are unable to substantiate. away from hon. members? 3 Personal Explanation— 19th August, 1980. Reply-to Statement. 4

:[Mr. Ian Smith] are not prepared tò accept the new order, should pack their bags and go. — [HON. — obviously because he wished to implicate MEMBERS: Yes. When are you going?] me. Hon. members are well aware of the The Minister preaches democracy in his true facts. Lord Soames was in control of statement, but he obviously does not prac¬ our Security Forces and was working with tise it. — [DR. USHEWOKUNZE: What General Walls. I had been, out of the seat do you know about it?] — Ordering people "of authority for more than eight months, of a particular colour to pack their bags and knew nothing of what was going on. and go, smacks of fascism and communism. 1 was never consulted or brought into the There is no difference, Mr. Speaker. picture on any plans. Let me inform the Minister that we Further down in this article, John Elli¬ Whites have no intention of packing our son does mention my name, not in con¬ bags and going. — [MR. STUUTTAFORD: nexion with any military takeover, but with Hear, hear.] We have as much right to a political alliance. The 'Minister avoided stay in this country as he does. — [DR. that point. Then the article goes on to men¬ USHEWOKUNZE: You had better behave.] tion certain black leaders in this same connection. Why did the Minister not refer MR. SHAYA: On a point of order, Mr. to this? Because he was building up a ca'se Speaker, I believe the hon. member has to attack white people, and by including referred to the stupidity of the Minister. Is the truth, he would have destroyed his this in accordance with the practice of this case. Accordingly, the Minister avoided the House? ■» truth in order to deceive this hon. House. MR. SPEAKER: Would the hon. member This evidence proves conclusively that the wish to withdraw that statement about the Minister is a dedicated racialist. — [HON. stupidity of the Minister? MEMBERS: Nonsense. Rubbish.] MR. IAN SMITH: If this is offensive, I MR. SPEAKER: Order. If hon. members wihdraw it. want to intervene, would they please do so MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member properly. Would the hon. member please may continue. continue?

MR. IAN SMITH: Not only does the MR. IAN SMITH: Let me inform the Minister that we no Minister use this false base from which Whites have intention of to attack me and my Party, he also uses packing our bags and going. We have as much it to attack our white community in general right to stay i this country as he has. — a completely unfounded and unwarranted As long as Government followed the attack. policy as outlined in the President's Speech He claims that Government is irritated at the opening of Parliament, they will -by the continued threat of a white exodus. continue to have our support and co-opera¬ Mr. Speaker, the Whites are not threaten¬ tion as they have had so far; but if they ing. They are going. Because ' of the should deviate into the malignancy of com¬ vindictiveness and the crass stupidity of munism, as would seem to be the ambition people such as the Minister. — [DR. USHE- of the Minister, and the attempt to pull us WOKUNZE: Rubbish.] [HON. MEMBERS: down with them, we will oppose and resist Inaudible interjections[. — [HON. MEM¬ such action. — [HON. MEMBERS: Racist BERS: Why are you here?] how?].

The truth hurts, Mr. Speaker, obviously. Finally, the Minister complains that "the He then goes on to say that all whites who bad press we are getting overseas has been 5 Motion— 19th August, 1980. Appointment of Committee. 6

MOTION worsening". Why are we getting the bad press overseas, Mr. Speaker? More than any¬ APPOINTMENT OF SELECT thing else, because of the actions of the COMMITTEE Minister and his broadcasting media. While prominent Americans were visiting this AFRICAN PRODUCTION AND country on a goodwill mission not long ago, MARKETING DEVELOPMENT they were subjected to a T.V. programme on FUND Cuba with a locally-dubbed commentary which slandered the Americans and praised THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF LOCAL the communists. No wonder the Americans GOVERNMENT AND HOUSING: I went home disenchanted, because of the dis¬ move that a Select Committee be äppointed tortions to which they had been subjected to examine and report upon the estimates on our T.V. of revenue and expenditure of the African

, Productions and Marketing Development Many cf our British friends have been Fund and other matters related to items antagonized by the constant attacks against appearing in the estimates -as may them and their colonial history, on our be deemed necessary for the purposes of broadcasting media. If the Minister is com¬ such examination; the Committee to have plaining about the bad press our country is power to send for persons, documents or getting overseas, then he has not got far to papers; to have leave to travel beyond the go in order to lodge his complaints — to precincts of the House; and to report from his own door. time to time.

After hurling insults at countries and Hon. members of this House may be puz¬ their Governments, he then goes, begging- zled by this motion, but I can assure them bcwl in hand, pleading for assistance from that it is a long-standing arrangement which these same people. What a demeaning and enables this House to have a close look at insufferable position this places our Gov¬ the work of the Fund. ernment in. The Estimates of the ' Fund are It is tragic to report that our broadcasting required by the enabling Act to be media is used, above all, to promote those approved by Parliament, and it has been who attack our white community. Not only the practice to first submit them for scrutiny ministers, but any other person indulging by a Select Committee which then makes in this are given'prime viewing time. But, recommendations to this House. > not those ministers who put over Govern¬ Much of the work of reconstruction will ment policy of reconciliation and working be undertaken with African Development together to promote a better future for all Fund equipment and resources, and the our people. This Minister will go down in African Development Fund Parliamentary history as the person who did most in our Committee will, no doubt, wish to be asso¬ country to generate racial hatred between ciated with this important work. our black and white communities. — [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] This particular Select Committee has been in existence for nearly thirty years, and its His contribution is completely desctructive reports have always been welcomed by this and is undermining his Government's policy. House. I feel sure that hon. members will Mr. Speaker, he stands condemned by all wish this practice to continue, and I move good Zimbabweans. —- [HON. MEMBERS: accordingly. Hear, hear.] — [DR. USHEWOKUNZE: Nonsense], Motion put and agreed to. 7 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 8

MOTION level-headed direction. If this is done badly, I feel quite sure it can FINANCE BILL: BUDGET DEBATE delay our progress indefinitely in the International world. Second Order read: Adjourned debate on Now, much has already been said in this motion to bring in a Finance Bill. debate on propaganda. All the world denies Question again proposed. its use, or that they put a slant to the news items emanating from their country. I THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: This believe quite sincerely this is not the case. debate was adjourned to allow time for All countries use it to a greater or lesser discussion with the private sector, and to extent. The Americans, for example, when prepare a final draft of the Bill. I am now they are speaking about America, put things ready to proceed and I move the motion across from an American angle. We can accordingly. even split hairs and go to the extent that Democrats do not Motion put and agreed to. put across the Republican point of view. -— [AN HON. MEMBER: Bill ordered to be brought in by the Or liberals or conservative point of view.] Minister of Finance. — In spite of its repeated assurance of the BBC FIRST READING impartiality, invariably states Britain's point of view, and it can often be FINANCE BILL noted that both Russia and China report the same incident from THE entirely different MINISTER OF FINANCE, pur¬ angles; in fact one would think they were suant to Order, presented the Finance Bill. referring to entirely different incidents. Bill read the first time. I am quite prepared to admit that when Second we were in Reading: 20th August. Government, we naturally saw things from our point of view and we must COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY agree, — after all we are told every day in this MAIN ESTIMATES OF EXPENDITURE House that the Blacks are now in charge. It was said by the Minister, only the Third Order read: Committe of Supply: other day that it is now their turn. No Main Estimates of Expenditure. reasonable person will deny them this but, could it be done a little House in Committee. more tactfully and not quite so blatantly? Unless this is done, On Vote 24 — Information and Tourism could bring about the completely opposite — $6 291 000. results to those desired.

(Consideration resumed). Unlike many hon. members in this

2.38 p.m. House, I have had the doubtful pleasure- before, and during the last war, of listening MR. CARTWRIGHT: I was interrupted to Dr. Goebbels, Adolph Hitler, Mr. Joyce, when speaking on Friday last, and I would known generally as Lord Haw Haw, and the like to continue from where I left off. I comparison between their line of propa¬ was pleased to know there was an increase ganda and that being used by our Govern¬ in the amount allocated for both Informa¬ ment to-day is positively alarming. tion and Tourism, because I believe sincerely there is a considerable need to On the actual operations of the ZBC and put across this country to the outside world. ZTV, I must congratulate the Ministry on There is only one stipulation I make, and the way some of the things are done. I that is that it is put across in a right and would like to congratulate in particular 9 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 10

Miss Mundawarara and another young Again, referring to events in the Far woman who has only been announcing for East, it was said that something or other a short time, but-her delivery, annunciation was taking place on the "New Hebreedes". and accent are extremely good. She is clear Now, surely, if the person who had been and everybody can understand what she is announcing that had consulted someone who knew saying. Unfortunately this does not apply something about Scotland . . . in all cases. We are treated on some — [MR. IRVINE: Like me.] — . . . they occassions to completely unintelligible would have said it was the Hebrides, unlike announcements. the rather ignorant person who once called it the "He Brides". Again, in a recent news Now I do not agree with a letter that item, it was said that somebody was think¬ was in the paper some short time ago, that ing of "scrapping of appetite". Now I under¬ all announcements on the English pro¬ stand those words, they are straightforward grammes must be done by Whites. There English scrapping of appetite. But what are many blafck Zimbabweans wo speak was actually meant was the scrapping of impeccable English and there is no reason apartheid. So I would respectfully ask the why they should not do the job. — yDR. Minister that the announcers do their home¬ USHEWOKUNZE: How many whites speak work before they go on to the air. shona?] — On the other hand I do not Another fact, only a couple of days ago know how some of the annoncers speak in an announcement was made which referred Shona and Ndebele. As far as I am con¬ to Mr. Dules. I do not know whether any cerned they may speak these languages hon. members of this House know any equally as badly as some speak English, but Mr. Dules. I do not. But there was a John no person likes to hear his mother- tongue Foster massacred. Dulles, and I think it was that gentleman to whom they were referring. What is the Ministry's policy in this Mr. Chairman, with that I think I have matter? Do they just turn someone out said quite enough. — [HON. MEMBERS: before the mike or the TV screen, and tell Hear, hear.] them to try their luck. Because it would 2.48 appear so in some instances. p.m.

MR. VAN DER BYL: Is the Minister The other thing is, why does not the going to answer all the pearls of wisdom Ministry insist that all announcers, whether we cast before him on Friday? — [HON. in English or African languages, do their MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] homework? And by that I mean to get an interpretation or a correct pronunciation THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION from someone who knows the particular AND TOURISM (DR. SHAMUYARÏRA): languages, be it French, English or what¬ Mr. Chairman, I will restrict my comments ever it might be. I quote some examples to the points which were raised in the Com¬ here: when a person goes up and announces mittee óf Supply last week, and the com¬ badly on the radio, obviously they have not ment that was made by the hon. member, done their homework—they have not con¬ Mr. Cartwright, to-day. I will not bother to sulted people who know the language. Some reply to the criticism that has been made of little things come across, such as the other me earlier by the hon. member, Mr. Ian day when the Queen Mother was presented Smith, because he is . . . — [MR. IAN with tea cosies and "fishy flies". I do not SMITH: You have got no answer for that.] know whether someone can tell me what — [AN HON. MEMBER: You were not are, "fishy flies" but I certainly could not here.] — ... I have read the speech which understand what they were getting at. was made, although I was not here—because 11 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 12

[The Minister of Information] THE CHAIRMAN: In terms of Standing Orders, discourteous words are out of order. the hon member for Southern is well known Would the Minister therefore, withdraw the internationally anyway as a liar, therefore word 'liar'? there is no point. — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear,'hear.] DR. SHAMUYARIRA: Is that word dis¬

courteous? / MR. VAN DER BYL: On a point of THE CHAIRMAN: Would the Minister order, is it in order for the Minister to withdraw? refer to any hon. member of this House as a liar, whether it be international or any¬ DR. SHAMUYARIRA:. Mr. Chairman, I thing else? — [AN HON. MEMBER: It is withdraw. in order.] — [MR. LANDAU: Wait, Mr. Chairman is going to give a ruling.] THE CHAIRMAN: On a further point, of order, the question of the earlier state¬ THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION: ment made by the hon. member, Mr. Ian Mr. Chairman, it is an adjective which was Smith cannot be brought up in the Com¬ not first used by me. It was used by the mittee of Supply. If the Minister may con¬ British Prime Minister of the time, who was tinue. — [MR. IAN SMITH: That has clip¬ negotiating with the hon. member, and it ped his wings a bit, has it not?] has been used in several books. If the hon. members oppositie object to the use of that DR. SHAMUYARIRA: Mr. Chairman, term, they should have sued the books and the hon. member Mr. Cartwright and other literature in which that adjective was used. hon. members opposite have been referring — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] to the question of the announcers, com¬ plaining that they cannot do one thing or MR. VAN DER BYL: On a point of another. One reason why it has not been order, Mr. Chairman, surely 60 wrongs do possible for the ZBC or the RBC at the not make a right, let alone if it comes from time to train good announcers is that the a British Prime Minister. Is it in order for hon. members opposite refused to engage the Minister to make a as remark such he and employ African announcers. — [AN

has made vis-a-vis any other hon. member HON. MEMBER: Nonsense.] — Here we of this House being a liar. I do not believe have a statement, the hon. member opposite it is, and I believe the Minister should who was a former Minister of Informa¬ withdraw it. tion, he is objecting to this statement. In the letters column to-day, we have a letter by a THE CHAIRMAN: Would the Minister Mr. Harvey Ward who was appointed to withdraw the remark. be Director General of the RBC at the time

when the hon. member was Minister of DR. SHAMUYARIRA: I do not think Information. — [MR. IRVINE: That is not , I should because, as I say, this is an adjec¬ so.] —- This is what he says in The Herald tive which has generally been used in lite¬ to-day. "When the top RBC executive intro¬ rature and in statements that have been made duced Blacks on the television to take parts in other Houses, about this particular hon. in debates, it was the then Government member. — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, which ordered to Blacks taken off the pro¬ hear.] grammes". ■— [HON. MEMBERS: Shame, MR. CARTWRIGHT: On a point of shame.] — And these were the actions of the hon. members order the word 'liar' is not an adjective. It opposite. They were is a noun. ordering that blacks. be removed and they were ordering that black announcers should DR. SHAMUYARIRA: I stand corrected. not be used. And now when we begin train- 13 Committee of Supply— 19ra August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 14

ing African announcers they begin com¬ programme and in our broadcasting, where plaining. we have departed from the general trend of the international community which we We are training African announcers, have joined. obviously they may make some mistakes at The real pronunciation at the beginning, but they are problem with the hon. members going to learn and they are learning very opposite, is that they are not living in the fast, and they have to learn by announcing. current international community from — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] which they have been an outlaw of course, and they are not even in this century; they The hon. member Mr. Goddard, spoke are living in the previous century. If they about sticking to the truth. Of course we were living in "our century, they would are sticking to the truth, and it is the understand the thrust of our general policy. vitiating of the truth by the previous regime The hon. member, Mr. Goddard, also which has created so many of the problems asked questions about the freedom of the that we face. The other point which he Press. We are, of course, bringing freedom raised about Russia and other countries to the Press for the first time; the Press of — I do not think the hon. member really this country has never enjoyed any free¬ knows enough about those countries to dom. There was censorship, intimidation of make any comments, so we can excuse him journalists, intimidation of editors and com¬ from that, but certainly he knows a lot about plete suppression of the Press and we are South Africa, and he did speak about the bringing freedom to the Press for the first alienation of South Africa; so did the hon. time ... — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, member for Gatooma/Hartley (Mr. van der hear.] — . . •. and we will protect the Zim¬ Byl) and I will make reference to that. We babwean Press. — [MR. GODDARD: Are are now members of the international com¬ you going to take it over,] — I said we munity which has condemned South Africa will protect the Zimbabwean Press. — [MR. and its apartheid system, and which has GODDARD: That is not an answer.] condemned the socio-economic system of that country. JYe are now members of the The hon. member for Gatooma/Hartley OAU which has many resolutions which (Mr. Van der Byl) raised a number of ques¬ have condemned that State and condemned tions about tourism which was referred to that society, and we ourselves, in our own in a number of press statements over the manifesto and in our policy and program¬ weekend, and there seems to have been some mes, have condemned apartheid, a system misunderstanding about the statement which which denigrates the black people of the I made referring to security matters which Republic of South Africa. we had been debating that morning, in which I indicated that the people who intend In that broad context, we criticize and to overthrow the Government, or who are we oppose a system of Apartheid and the hostile to our system of Government, will whole political arrangement in South Africa. not be permitted into this country. South The United Nations and the Organization African tourists as a whole will continue of African Unity resolutions have described to be allowed into the country as they have the South African regime as racist and done in the past, but they will not be given apartheid, and we have been using those any special privileges. We have said there phrases to describe the same system in line are no special arrangements that will persist with the international community which we between us and the Republic of South have joined. The same community recog¬ Africa. Tourists will come from any coun¬ nizes SWAPO' as the legitimate represen¬ try, they will be welcome from African tative of the people of Namibia and we also countries to the North and the Middle East do the same, so there is no part in our and from Europe. 15 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 198U. Estimates of Expenditure. 16

[The Minister of Information] The point at issue is this — and this is the point I made and I would be grate¬ The hon. member's discussion of various ful if the Minister would indicate his in¬ countries from which he thought we will tentions and that of the Government in not have tourists — he excluded Nigeria of general on this issue •— that we cannot, course which is a wealthy country, in many at this moment, consider receiving vast instances are wealthier than-South Africa, members of tourists from the North because, and the whole West African coast with as I said, in large measure the money does which we are also making arrangements not exist in the neighbouring countries to to receive a large as number of tourists, the North. If yoUj-go to more distant well as from the countries around us, but countries where it does exist, I agree with our main area of concentration for tourism the Minister, and where the capacity and will, of course, be Europe and the Middle the habit of travelling is in fact instilled East and if we can make adequate transport in the people of those countries, we cannot arrangements I do not accept the hon. mem¬ do it until we have got adequate facilities ber's thesis that we only have to look at of processing these people quickly, and with South Africa for our tourist industry. The as little trouble as possible from an im¬ other questions that were raised by hon. migration and customs point of view when members áre fairly trivial and I think have they arrived. At the moment, we have not been dealt with and I have nothing more got the facilities of dealing with large to say. — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear hear.] quantities — beecause this is what it needs and this is what it requires — large num¬ 3,00 p.m. . bers of Jumbo jets arriving at frequent intervals because, without that, you are MR. VAN DER BYL: I must' express not going to get it because we have not got with certain regret that the Minister has the facilities at the moment. I would ask not answered what I ha'd to say in more the Minister what he proposes to do, in detail, but has rather tended to brush it off conjunction with his colleagues in Trans¬ on the basis of a sort of generalization. port and Civil Aviation and indeed finance It is not in the least germane to the drive vis-a-vis the actual question of financing ex¬ of a bigger and better tourist industry, to tensions to the aerodrome and vis-a-vis the give a dissertation on the beauties of being more effective and members of the OAU and the international expeditious customs pro¬ cedures which also fall under the Ministry community, whatever that may really mean, of Finance — how he proposes to over¬ and all of whom, the Minister informs come this. the House, have condemned the system which is operative in South Africa. But the question that arises, and the one This is of no particular interest to the •that I did my best to make clear on vitally important issues which I raised in Friday was this that all this, with the best the House last Friday, which was in effect intentions in the world and with the greatest this, that however much — and I agree possible effort in the world, cannot be with the Minister — we will welcome achieved 'before a considerable number of tourists from the Middle East, from the years have past. 'I do not think anyone will West Coast and I dilated at some length disagree with that, and I do not propose on the question of the West Coast, and to go through my whole analysis of the I did not mention Nigeria because to go neighbouring countries as I did on Friday, through all the countries would take too but you get back to the one crucial factor long, but I mentioned certain other ones •that tourism comes from where the money such as the Ivory Coast and the Gabon is, and where the habit and the inclination and Senegal and so forth. of travel exists, and the only place where 17 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 18

he is going to get that in the short to ground to cope with the volume of traffic medium term is the Republic of South that we want to come. Africa'. Whatever the OAU may talk about I would remind hon. members that the it or anything else, if he is going to have, we and he is in earnest on his pla~s for plans that are making will have the capacity to bring in the large tourism and his programme to raise the number of tourists thát we want from the areas from number of tourists coming into this country which we want them to come. I do not think to a million a year which he suggested the I should belabour the point about South other day — and which I praised and agreed Africa, which wants me to belabour which with — then without looking to the Re¬ is his second point. I do not believe he is public of South Africa, it is not going to correct in saying that we have to on work. And therefore I get back to my main depend South Africa alone, if we want to expand theme that if you agree that is the only way our tourist industry. — [MR. VAN DER that can be done, then surely the pro¬ BYL: I did not say that.] We will develop grammes of unnecessary vilification and it in other areas. • denigration of South African can only be counter-productive in the overall interest One point that hon. members opposite not only of tourism but the economy of this should appreciate is that up to the time of country as a whole, and I would be grate¬ independence, the economy of this country ful if the Minister would tell the House has been tied to and heavily dependent on what his thoughts are and what his pro¬ South Africa. — [MR. GODDARD: It

posals are on how to effect these two things. still is.] — They increased that dependence, Firstly, the increasing of the capacity to be but it is the policy of the Government to able to bring tourists in from the world on reduce that dependence and diversify our long distance air travel through the Salis¬ economy. — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, bury aerodrome, and secondly, I hope a hear.] —We will not be deterred in pur¬ more realistic approach to the one market suing this policy by the noises of the hon. which is here and ready to be used at the members opposite ... — [MR. VAN DER moment, and that is the Republic of South BYL: Nobody suggested that you shold.]

Africa. — . . . who failed to run the economy and failed to achieve their objectives. 3.07 p.m. 3.08 p.m. DR. SHAMUYARIRA: My colleague, the MR. GODDARD: In his Minister of Transport and Power is en- reply to my ganged in extensive negotiations with vari¬ contribution on Friday, the Minister seemed to ous international airlines that want to fly reply mainly on retribution or recrimi¬ nation into our airport, and when these nego¬ against former administrations for the manner in which tiations are complete, there will be con¬ they handled the siderable capacity for bringing people who press. want to come into this country. All I seek from the Minister is an under¬

There are plans — I should not announce taking that this Government will retain the these plans — he is going to do so him- independence of the Press. Allow me to seff in due course. But I would only expand it. That this Government will not mention that there are plans, and that endeavour to take over the newspapers in finance has been set aside for expanding this country, the major newspapers; that Government will not endeavour to out the Salisbury Airport considerably. — [AN buy HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear.] The air¬ the Printing and Publishing group in order port at the Victoria Falls is already being that the editorial policy of these newspapers extended, so there will be the capacity on the may be controlled in the same biased man- 19 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 20 [Mr. Goddard] munity in this country. — [HON. MEM¬ BERS: Hear, ner that our hear.] broadcasting media now is. — MEMBER: Free [AN HON. enterprise.] I am disturbed however, at the size of the Votes which we are allowing the Min¬ The Minister dissertated at some length istry of Information and Tourism. $6 million on the policies of the previous Government for the amount of work that has to be done with respect to the newspaper, and said they in Information in our were censored. That was not the case. Cer¬ projecting country, in projecting our new nation and in tain material had to be submitted to the bring¬ ing us back nito the international situation, military authorities ... — [AN HON. is a MEMBER: For very meagre figure indeed. Whereas I censorship.] — ... to quite appreciate the constraints on us, I am determine whether or not it was in the hopeful, however, that we will be in a posi¬ interests of the security of the State. — tion to do much better in [HON. MEMBERS: Censorship.] future, once we have set our feet very firmly on the ground. They tend to forget that we were a nation ' The responsibility of the Ministry of In¬ fighting an economic and a military war, formation is crucial, is vital, not and the situation was not normal. I would only in this country but also outside the reiterate, I would like a categorical under¬ country in international affairs, because it is taking from the Minister that neither Gov¬ through this Ministry that this Government will be ernment nor the Government Party will able to communicate with the citizens of this endeavour to take over the Press for the country. It is through this that our purposes of controlling their editorial policy. Ministry Government will be — able to [AN HON. MEMBER: Don't project itself, you want its frecenterprise?] polities and its programmes to the people of the country as well as receive information from the 3.11 p.m. people when our reporters go out to the countryside which is without news, THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRI¬ without information and communicate this CULTURE (MR. S. H. MAKONI): I would back to the officials and the authorities of like to begin by congratulating the Minister Government. of Information and Tourism for the ad¬ Therefore I vances that have been achieved in the field cannot over-emphasise the of information and publicity in the few importance of this Ministry and its pro¬ months grammes. I cannot since independence. — [HON. over-emphasise the MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] importance of this Ministry to the projec¬ tion of our country and our nation to the I do not wish, in what I am going to say, international community as a whole. It is a to make with comparisons progress made in pity that we are being projected out there the other ministries which is substantial, by foreign media, foreign agencies. This but I am sure hon. members will agree with is because it is not possible at the moment me that manifestly the Ministry of Informa¬ for us to project ourselves as strongly and tion and Tourism has made the most overt, as forcefully and as quickly as we would the most obviously seen ... — like. This is progress why I am lamenting the very [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear] — . . . small Vote which has been accorded to this promoting the and the wishes of aspirations Ministry and hoping in the very near future the majority of our people. — [MR. GÖD- we will be able to redress this position and DARD: They have been in reverse since afford the Ministry of Information and then.] — This progress is clearly evidenced Tourism adequate funds in order for it to by the amount of bleats and cries and be able to carry out its crucial job for the squeaks that come from the reactionary com¬ country internally and externally. 21 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 22

I would like to move on to touch on I would also like to encourage the Minis¬ ter to make strenuous efforts to ensure that some specific aspects of this Ministry's res¬ ponsibilities. Television. In accordance with the news we receive, particularly on TV, does not restrict itself to those areas and my earlier remark of congratulations to the circumstances where it is Minister, I would like to go further in say¬ possible to film and ing a very clear change is noticed. Even bring a picture. I am talking about some of us who were outside the country restricting news to events taking place in cities and towns where it is possible for for a number of years and were, therefore, ZTV to not able to watch R.T.V. — what trash, go and film and report in voice. and quite clearly notice that from reports There are a lot of activities taking place in the and information we received from our countryside and I know the Minister is well aware of the dearth on the part of our compartriots inside the country in Rho¬ desia, then there has been very much of a population to know what is happening in change in the nature of material, content Urungwe, Chibi and Tjolotjo. We would and standard of material coming out of the like this to be projected on the TV news, whether we have a picture of event or ZTV. I would,like to wish and hope that that whether we have a newscaster simply the few relics of the old era which we still read¬ see, will quickly disappear from our screens. ing that in Tjolotjo, there was an activity. — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] I myself have attended a number of I would like to come particularly to some events taking place in the rural areas, of the news items that we watch on ZTV. agricultural shows and things like that which It is not intended to criticise the Minister. we have never had reported. I am not trying I would be the last person to want to do to ask for publicity for my Ministry. — that. It is only intended to give encourage¬ [AN HON. MEMBER: You will get it if it ment to him to move more swiftly in his is newsworthy.] — What I am saying is, efforts to bring our broadcasting medium in surely a lot of events are taking place in the line with the new situation. I cannot appre¬ countryside where the people who liberated ciate that it is considered newsworthy, and themselves live, and which things are of newsworthy of five minutes of TV time to importance to them, more than some eff the talk about the Queen Mother's 80th birth¬ things we see happening in the towns and day. When looking at the lady, how dress- cities to which they have no particular ful she is, is not material or even looking interest or are directly concerned about. at the British people standing down at Buckingham Palace, it is not news to the It is my hope as soon as the Ministry and the ZBC have necessary people of Zimbabwe. I am hopeful that we acquired the will not devote any more of our time to this equipment and machinery, we will be able sort of non-news as I would like to call it. to see our people out there going about their reconstruction in furtherance of their was Together with that, I dismayed the liberation. In the event that we are waiting other day to watch about five minutes of for all this, I would like to wish and hope our good news time devoted to talking that the Minister will make strenuous efforts about Miss World competition and viewing in dealing with the meagre resources we ladies or girls, whatever the exact termino¬ have, to see that our country is adequately logy is, preparing themselves to go and informed of that which is taking place parade their thighs and whatever else in a throughout the country, particularly Miss World I not competition. do think amongst the people as such. this is news, and I would like to encourage the Minister of Information to move swiftly I would like to move on to radio, and to ensure that this kind of non-news does briefly again commend the Minister for the not occupy our screens. advances that have been made in this respect 23 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 24

[The Deputy Minister of cial Agriculture] position, as it were, has not been felt as particularly in the channel now called Radio effectively within the Press as it had within the 2. I am regretful that the advances made broadcasting service. The reason is in respect of Radio 2 cannot be reflected in very clear, because of the so- called independence of the Press. respect of Radio 1 which remains clearly Independ¬ a ence and subversion or lack European or General Service that it was of readjustment in proceeds. The ZBC is Rhodesia. — [MR. MOSELEY: If only very independent, but as that was you say, we would like to see the same so.] — What was what? — [MR. movement, the same MOSELEY: That Radio 1 was European.] independent move¬ — ment fake I would like to wish and hope that the place in the Press area. Minister and his associates in the Ministry I am very concerned, Mr. will move to Chairman, about bring' Radio 1, which is still one particular thing, and this is only an very white-orientated, in line with the new example, the columnist in one of our situation in the country. Sunday papers who has made it a definite I do not wish deliberate to to prescribe how to go policy oppose everything that about Government has this because I know the Minister is done and said. I know that most since the 18th of competent, more competent than I am, April, I have read this but I would particular very much yearn for the op¬ Sunday newspaper and this parti¬ cular portunity. to tune into Radio I and listen to feature, and all I "read is slashing about with Chimurenga, or programmes about the whatever Government has said. Revolution on I would like to Radio 1 . . . — [HON. hope and believe, Mr. Chair¬ MEMBERS: man, that Government as a whole and the Hear, hear.] ... — this Minister material being broadcast not only in English particularly, will address himself but in to English, Shona- and Ndebele on bringing the Press into line with the new realities of our Radio 1. I would like to hope and believe situation. that we can find a mixture of programmes In conclusion, I would ilke to reiterate which at the moment seem to have been on the South African hangover which con¬ compartmentalized to Radio 2 and Radio 1 tinues to effect a number of our com¬ which may maintain, in spite of all the patriots, in this country, and which continues advances we have achieved, the eternal to be projected very strongly and very stigma of the African service and the forcefully from the Benches General Service. opposite. It is quite clear that hon. members would like, I as has been stated in a' different would like to move on to the question discussion, to oppose progress in this of the Press. Some remarks have been country, and in made order to camouflage their immediately prior to my own con¬ reactionary and anti-people positions, it is as . presented anti- tribution asking the Minister to give communist. We know that their solemn commitment that Government will political views are against not move to buy. out printing houses. Where¬ progress, against socialism, but that as we have is not the only reason been in a position to congratu¬ why this South African late ourselves about -the hangover continues to exist. broadcasting ser¬ It is only a front . . . vices, I am afraid I am not in a position to say the same even very remotedly about MR. GODDARD: On a point of order. our Press. It is clear that our Press has not THE recognized the change in the situation CHAIRMAN: On a point of order? that has taken place. — [MR. GODDARD: MR. GODDARD: On a point of order, They are the only people that tell the I do not believe the Deputy Minister, is truth.] — I know very clearly that the following the Vote under consideration. reason is because Government in its offi¬ He is speaking very gererally now. » 25 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 26

THE CHAIRMAN: Would the Minister, MR. CRONJE: Mr. Chairman, I believe show how his remarks relate to the Vote it is inappropriate, in dealing with the way under discussion? in which the Minister is to conduct his policy and conduct his own particular Min¬ MR. S. H. I would MARONI: not think istry, that we should indulge in attacks, one that question was pertinent. If people only community against another. I think it is read the papers and heard what the furore unwarranted. — [AN HON. MEMBER: and outcry is about, the slant of the broad- Hear, hear.] — I think that it is also un¬ ^ casting services, and why South Africa is warranted that one should interpret the described as racist, anti-apartheid and all motives to other people which are totally that, or scrapping apartheid as the other unjustified and I believe that the hon. mem¬

gentleman said, it is very pertinent to the ber should withdraw the remarks. — [DR. Vote what I am discussing, I contend, Mr. USHEWOKUNZE: Oh, and if Ian Smith Chairman. says it is warranted, then it is OK.]

THE CHAIRMAN: Order. Would the I was proceeding to say that the remarks Minister made about the Government's position in Deputy please continue. respect of South Africa and particularly MR. MAKONI: But to allay the fears of about the stance and position of our broad¬ the hon. member who has just raised the casting services is not so much intended to point of order, I would like to point out to protect democratic rights or even in the him I am still quite clear in my mind, I am intrest of the nation ... — [AN HON. consistent with the policy we are discussing. MEMBER: It is just commonsense, it is A statement has been made from across the only in the interests of commonsense.] — Table here that what is coming out of the Have you got commonsènse? — [AN HON. ZBC and ZTV is anti-white, it is attacking MEMBER: Yes.] — [MINISTER OF the white community, and I am only res¬ HEALTH; DR. USHEWOKUNZE: It is ponding to these remarks, I do not see how very rare in your area.] — It is only a I am supposed to respond, I do not see how smoke screen for anti-Government and anti- I am denigrating anybody ... — [AN HON. revolutionary tendencies, not tendencies, MEMBER: It is not your job.] — ... I do white-established stereotypes in this com¬ not see how I am undermining the policy of munity. It has been . . . reconciliation, I am only responding from

what has come from across the Table. — MR. CRONJE: On a point of order, Mr. [MR. VAN DER BYL: It has not.] Chairman I believe that Mr. Speaker, at the ' I would like to beginning of the proceedings this afternoon, proceed, Mr. Chairman, under warned this House about derogatory remarks your very wise protection, to say that all this that comes out is intended to water about other hon. members or communities, down the and I believe in discussing the Vote under Government, and particularly the Minister of Information's consideration, that of Information, it is quite responsibility in protecting the Government and the new unnecessary arid becoming for us in this situation in the country, should be very House, when we are supposed to set an strongly and example to the people of reconciliati

— [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, — . . . cerned. — [THE MINISTER OF HEALTH: hear.] and what the people of this country . . . Then stop howling.] — I have not said a — [AN HON. MEMBER: It is not word, not a word. yours]

— ... the people of this country and those THE CHAIRMAN: Order. who would like to remain the people of this 27 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 28

[The Deputy Minister of Agriculture] of this House, has just been instigating more and more political pressure to be brought country, do realise what they suffered for, upon the two media which I have just men¬ and what they struggled for, in order to tioned. Now evidently the Minister, and he obtain the position which we have reached has said that he accepts most of this report, to-day. or a good deal of it, evidently the Minister I would like to go further and say in in supporting what the previous Deputy debate and in discussion about the Broad¬ Minister has just said, are at variance here casting and Information Services, remarks for the Minister apparently does not want have been made about white people leaving political interference, beóauses he has the country and who will be forced to leave accepted the advice of the BBC report. And the country because of what is coming out I must say that he should have a chat with of the broadcasting services? I would only some of his back-benchers, and the Deputy repeat what the Minister of Information said Minister of Agriculture, who I think if he in a different manner altogether, but it is knows anything about agriculture, should pertintent here, that Europeans — and I am stick to his own portfolio and leave this to saying this very deliberately and very con¬ people who know what they are talking sciously -— that Europeans who cannot about. — [MR. GODDARD: He does not adjust and accept the new situation, can pack know anything about anything.) up and go because a they have home in Now there are a couple of questions which Europe. — [MR. DIVARIS: No, I was born I would like to ask the Minister which here.] — But African of whatever colour or come out of this report, and that is how does race, Africans who belong to Zimbabwe but he intend to collect the licences for radio who still have anti-people, racist and anti- and television. The report says that approxi¬ revolutionary or must reactionary tendences mately a quarter of the licences are being stay here and we will make sure we will put '"collected at the present moment. There are them in line. We will cook them until they some astonishing figures which have been follow the line of the new situation. — [MR. given here, and such things as there are an GODDARD: I am looking forward to that.] estimated 500 000 radios in Zimbabwe, blow, Mr. 3.30 p.m. Chairman, if there is 500 000 radios in action in Zimbabwe, one shudders at the MR. am SHIELDS: I rather pleased to be amount of, what shall we call it, propaganda following the last hon. speaker, because I that is going out on 500 000 radios; it is a have a few pertinent remarks which I think good job they are spread all over the coun¬ 'bear some relation to -what he has just said. try but nevertheless they are only collecting approximately, according to the estimate I have in front of me here the British this year, 175 000 licences. Now what is Broadcasting Commission's Report which going to happen to the other 325 000 who was commissioned by the Minister, evidently should be paying licences? Is there an with the intention of improving or other¬ efficient system in the pipeline to do some¬ wise of the broadcasting and television ser¬ thing about this? The same thing applies vices within this country. One of the most to TV licence. There are approximately pertinent remarks made by the BBC report, II 000 TV licences being collected at the I will quote: "And the wish expressed to us present moment and they estimate there is by the Minister of Information that the something in the region of 75 000 to 100 000 Governors should be seen to be guardians sets in action. of the independent service and capable of insulating the broadcasters from political So first of all, I think the Minister should and other pressures." The Deputy Minister try and put his House in order by collecting ably supported by the other hon. members this revenue, because obviously there are a 29 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 30 lot of people getting free services. Mind that there is only about one quarter of the you, I must admit that some of the pro¬ estimated revenue being collected at the grammes should be free, we should not moment, and can he give some indica¬ have to pay licences to listen to some of tion of what the. costs are in collecting this, the programmes. — [AN HON. MEMBER: and would it not be better to contemplate They should pay you.] within the foreseeable future abolishing the radio licence entirely. Also in the report here is a recommenda¬ tion that the report of the ZBC and its 3.36 p.m. accounts should be laid before Parliament annually. Is the Minister going to do this? MR. RAMBANEPASI: I think in con¬ Does the Minister intend to do this, because sidering this Vote, we must put emphasis I would sincerely hope he would. I believe on our. .. in such an important Ministry which could THE CHAIRMAN: Could the hon. mem¬ do such a trèmendous amount of good — ber and also possibly do a tremendous amount please project his voice, since the short¬ hand of harm — I believe its Report should be people are having difficulty in picking put before Parliament annually to enable the up what he is saying. representatives of the people and the tax¬ MR. RAMBANEPASI: Thank you. What payers here in this Assembly, to debate I am saying is we must emphasise to the what has been going on the previous 12 Minister that the main months. purpose of our broadcasting to-day, or the most impor¬ I must concur with some of the senti¬ tant task it has, is to weld our different communities into a ments expressed by some hon. members single nation. The pur¬ that this Ministry — perhaps it is a bit too pose of the radio or the information ser¬ vices is to inform the early yet as it has had a lot of teething general masses of our troubles — I would.sincerely hope it will people of what is happening in the improve its image. It is not an easy thing country. They must know the stage of our to do after so much trouble and war within development, what is happening to-day, what has the country just suddenly to take on a new happened and where we are head¬ image and make it stick, and I would advise ing, what are the problems of our Govern¬ that some consideration be given to a lot ment, what does it intend to achieve and more educational programmes to be put on bring the people to participate in that one of the services, because this is a reason¬ development, so in channelling our re¬ ably efficient and cheap method of distribut¬ sources in this Department, we look to the Minister to see ing what educational facilities we have. that programmes are mainly aimed at building our different comtnunities, The Report also refers to this, and with remove the hatred in the minds' of our this I must agree, that television and the people. — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] radio is a remarkable method and vehicle — Make them believe that they belong to for distributing news and education to the the same nation, they are one people who less informed people. However, I must belong to one nation. Therefore at the same think also, once we get properly on our time we cannot do that until and unless we feet, perhaps the Minister could abolish fell them what has happened in the past. radio licences — entirely because it seems to [AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, no.] — [AN me an almost impossible task to collect HON. MEMBER: Yes.] — There can be them. One would wonder if he can no give future without a history. — [MR. the House any idea of what approximately GODDARD: You give your version of his¬ the amount of1 money it takes to collect tory and we give ours.] — You give us licences from the radios, bearing in mind your version of history .. . 31 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 32

THE CHAIRMAN: Order. Hon. mem- what they do here is to talk otherwise so feers must always address the Chair. Will the they are not interested in reconciliation, hon. member please continue? If they were interested in reconciliation, MR. RAMBANEPASI: Thank you, Mr. they would not be opposing us and what Chairman. There are some rude interjec- the broadcasting system is doing, because it tions from people who are misinformed, ;s doing a tremendous job in fact; who can who are living in a laager. Their mentality object the song that projects our indepen- is so blinkered in a certain direction they dence? This is what brings us together, cannot see any other direction except the This is for the people to reflect our national one direction that was given by the pre- heritage. The national anthem is to bring vious Minister of Information who happens people together so there is no need for to be I am sorry, this may be out of our colleagues here to stick to the RF prin- order. But he comes from South Africa , ciples ,of broadcasting where they give and so his emphasis is on South Africa so directives to those in control of the broad- we cannot overlook that, 'but what I am casting system — you can broadcast this rèally interested in, is to see that we forget and not that. We are not doing that, we our origins, whether you came from South are 0nly giving directions that you should Africa, whether you came from Matabele- remember what you say should not harm land; you are a Zimbabwean, from ^e country, do that which builds the nation, Mashonaland East you are a Zimbabwean not that which divides the people, and Manicaland — we are all Zimbabweans — but forget about South Africa, think of b/'lb prn' what is good for Zimbabwe, not what is MR. LANDAU: I would like to start good for South Africa because we are not my contribution, which will essentially be in South Africa. The difference hère is a brief one, by saying it is not my inten¬ tion. members here have double citizen- tion to get involved in some sort of politi- ship so they will want to put one foot in cal wrangle which has been the custom South Africa and another foot in Zim- this afternoon. I feel that a'ny good that babwe so if things get worse here, they can might come out of the reconciliation theme always jump across the border and we are put forward by the Prime Minister is getting not interested in pleasing such people. severely damaged, probably irreparably, by

Our our own problem must be aimed at debate , on this Information Vote. Many people, people who have to live with our ^ngs have been said this afternoon. Some own decisions so our broadcasting system . b* ministers some by deputy ministers, -must be aimed at what is good for others by back-benchers which unfortunately our people and not what is good for South some of us would Probably live to regreL Africa. One hon. member said our pro-. The memory of hon. members is un- grammes are antagonizing South Africa fortunately rather short. Every Government, because we want mofféy from South Africa whether it be the Government of the hon. —we do not want money from South Africa Ian Smith or the hon. member Bishop at any cost. We want tourists from South Muzorewa, does what they consider to be Africa, they are welcome, but they are not best for their people, whether they be the welcome at any cost. We have to shout our black people or the white people, and I cause and not the cause of South Africa feel that every one of these Prime Ministers so the main thing is let us build our nation, and Ministers of Information, Tourism, and what the hon. members are saying here etcetera, who have stood before this House is also projected to the communities that have really and honestly tried to do what they represent; instead of preaching recon- they considered to be the best for the whole ciliation here, they talk reconciliation but country. I am pretty sure — we have one 33 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 34 ex-Prime Minister sitting .in the back-bench is only fifty cents, and it goes down the to at the moment — he would agree with me line the single star hotel which only pays a ten cent when I say that. per person levy.

We get the Deputy Minister of Agricul¬ The amount of money that is to be ture going rather wild in stating there are derived as a result of these Governmental certain items that appear on television and levies is, I feel, going to be a tremendous radio which he does not approve of. He amount. Apart from the reasoning that I gave the instance of beauty competitions — might ask as to why has this been increased to such a Miss World Competition •— of the Queen large extent, is how much money is Mother's 80th birthday — a'11 of which he going to be derived from this source and considered unpalatable and vociferously what is the money going to be used for. I condemned. feel that the amount of money that will be derived will be far in excess of the money There are many people in this country, for which it was originally envisaged. both white and black, who consider these items to be of newsworthy interest. It might On a more pleasing note, I would like to close come as a great surprise to the Deputy my contribution by saying how very Minister of Agriculture to know that there grateful the hotel industry was during the last few are a lot of people in this country who years to receive from the Develop¬ knew Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth the ment of Tourism Fund — I would presume that is the Fund involved — the tremendous Queejr Mother personally, and were very interested in the fact that she had an 80th amount of subsidy that was given to the hotels in order to keep open birthday and what went on. Obviously it them during the does not interest the Deputy Minister, nor period of the hostilities. It is with regret does the beauty competition. that I note that this has stopped. I do under¬ stand why it has stopped, but a vote of I just wonder how the Deputy Minister thanks would be due to the Minister and the would handle a beauty competition in Chibi staff of that particular Department for the Reserve if there was such a thing. His in¬ foresightedness and intelligence that they terest would obviously be rather divided. had in developing such a Tourism Fund which enabled the hotels in this country to I would like to come to a more sane remain open when everything really pointed aspect of this Vote and ask a question in to their closure. connection with tourism — and perhaps it is as well that I mention to the Minister 3.50 p.m. and the House in gereral that I am in¬ volved in the hotel industry and therefore MR. MATIVENGA: I believe the debate my question, although a fair one, must not is degenerating now. To countributions we be considered to be one of pecuniary are getting from members of the Rhodesian interest. Front are very much irrevelant. The RF themselves are on record as racists. It was recently announced by the Min¬ istry of Information, Tourism that there is to MR. LANDAU: On a point of order: be a large increase in the Government levy whereas I tried to bring the debate to some paid by guests at hotels, based on the form of semblance of sense, I would say number of stars that hotels have been that the hon. member is not now debating graded. This will amount in the course of a the Information Vote. year to a tremendous amount of money. THE CHAIRMAN: Would the hon. mem¬ To refresh the Minister's memory, the ber five star type hotel pay 60 cents per person please indicate how his remarks relate to the Vote under consideration. per night as a levy; for four star hotels, it 35 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 36- MR. MATTVENGA: My reason for say¬ members so that I can reply to them at one ing so is that the R.F. members are prepared time. to watch the Queen Mother on the screen and 3.55 things like that, but if they see some¬ p.m. thing else they would rather vomit. MR. CARTWRIGHT: I have only two The small R.F. members would do their com¬ points to make. One is that the Minis¬ ter munity a world of good if they applied seemed to infer, he did not definitely themselves to the letter and spirit of recon¬ say so, but certainly the last hon. speaker stated ciliation, because over the years they have categorically: he was obviously refer¬ cheated the white community and said things ring to me, that I had attacked the which do not announcers on the exist. ZBC or ZTV. To any¬ one who wants to read what I said, or who MR. LANDAU,: On a point of order. The listens carefully, I did not attack hon. member any of is not debating the Informa¬ the announcers. In fact I praised two of tion Vote and he has failed to answer them. All your that I criticised was a system that questions as to how he was going to. I allows trainees to go on to the air before would request that you rule him out of they are fully briefed or instructed on the order. ' pronunciation of words in the bulletins which THE CHAIRMAN: Would the hon. they are about to announce. member stick to the Vote under debate. The second point I would like to bring MR. up is the Minister said I MATIVENGA: Before I go further undoubtedly know I nothing at all about Russia or understand that our interpreters in the China. I made no claim to Senate, the majority of, them cannot speak knowledge of those two coun¬ tries. I Shona or Ndebele. But I am told that those merely said I had read reports, or I had news who are heard from each of those coun¬ newscasters on TV and Radio are tries individually, incompetent. They cannot speak English. regarding one particular It incident, but the is pathetic; this is why I declare these reporting on it was com¬ pletely opposite and people racists. They cannot accept change. they gave, in fact, entirely different view points. They gave I was going to advocate if the such Minister different stories one could hardly of Information could reduce the believe price of they were talking about the same TV licences and radio. Now that the coun¬ thing. That is all, Sir. try is in majority-rule, I believe most people are 3.57 p.m. going to use more television sets and radio. So if the Minister MR. could cut down the MAWEMA: First of all, looking licence on TV so as to at the give the majority Vote, I would like to find out from of our the people an opportunity, through the Minister how he has arrived-at certain news media, rather than to say we must figures. On Sub-head IB, I find that 1979/80 always watch Queen Mother and something was $59 000 and 1980/81 is $37 000. Yet I that is repugnant towards believe it is society. We have common knowledge, or we are moved from minority-rule into majority- told, that harm has been done to our broad¬ rule. It is through the news media that our casting system by both the previous rebel¬ people can understand lious exactly where we are regimes of the hon. member Mr. Ian going and I am sure the sooner we Afri¬ Smith and the puppet regime of the hon. canize TV and radio the better. member Bishop Muzorewa. One would have thought more THE money was required to revive MINISTER OF INFORMATION the system of broadcasting to something AND TOURISM (DR. SHAMUYARIRA): reasonably like we are to all hoping achieve, May I receive the comments from the as already is shown by the Minister. There- 37 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 38 fore I wondered whether, instead of this Getting to the Vote we are discussing deduction in the allocation, there should to-day, I wonder whether this House would not be have been an increase. doing justice if it gave the Minister a chance, next time he wants to ask for I come on to Sub-head HE Ancillary more money, to just go to the Treasury Expenses. I notice however, that Mainte¬ straight and ask for money, and never come nance of technical equipment — $24 000 to this House, because the type of men who in 1979/80, and S41 000 in 1980/81, and yet are supposed to be giving contributions on Technical services there is a reduction from the opposite side are just not worth

of $200. I believe the increase there is pro¬ it — the stuff we are supposed to be working bably intended to mean that we will be at. Thank you. acquiring more up-to-date machinery, but what happens to the old machinery? Do we 4.06 p.m. throw it away, or do we need it to continue to service that; and maybe the Minister MR. SHIELDS: Thank you, Mr. Chair¬ would have needed more money for tech¬ man. Just one point here on page 107 of nical services. the Estimates. I see that the grant for the

I also want to make a few comments Development of Tourism Fund has been decreased from over $1 million to $530 with regard to the broadcasting system it¬ thousand. I wonder if the Minister would self. The previous regime was of the atti¬ reasons tude that they should give to the Blacks give the Assembly the for the decrease in this particular portion of the what is good for the Whites, and not what Vote. Perhaps the Minister did not hea*rfîé. is good for the Blacks. In this country to¬ The Development of Tourism Fund on day, we are a nation of Zimbabweans where page 107 of the Vote' has been decreased no colour counts. We say we are all Zim¬ from over $1 million to $530 thousand and babweans, black and white. I was wondering as to whether the Minister Hence the media is so set now to bring could give us some details as to why this a true picture to the nation of a national has been decreased, when the country is so image, and I get surprised when I hear the concerned with improving its tourist faci¬ type of dunderhead we are having on the lities and also the vital exchange earned opposite side criticising the Minister for all from tourism generally. the good that he and his staff are making to improve the already ruined system, which One other point is, it has always con¬ they, because of their ignorance, did not cerned me and this country that the vast know what they were doing. They were majority of our citizens normally do not not suited for the jobs, and to-day even, have the necessary funds to take holidays their contribution in this House is appalling. and see other parts of the country. As hotels I wonder, Mr. Chairman, whether it is not generally come under this Ministry, I time the white electorate was given a chance wonder if the Minister could tell the to choose better representatives for this Assembly if there are any plans ahead for House. You have even men of the calibre developing what we could call low-cost of the hon. member Mr. Ian Smith who, holiday areas near some of the more excit¬ thought past history, we know he was a liar. ing tourist spots in the country, so that the least fortunate in the In one of the recent papers someone who country could avail themselves of used to be very close to him, said he has having a change of scenery known the hon. member Mr. Ian Smith not and perhaps enjoying what would probably be their first to be a man who is saying the truth, so I holiday. I would sincerely just wanted to, you know, show the type hope that their real holiday would be within the of man we are dealing with in this House. country in which they live. 39 Committee of Supply—■ 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 40

MR. E. NDLOVU: When the Minister neighbouring countries in this instance, that was to on are replying questions Friday, among never mentioned, they never contributed the questions was tfie issue of music on the to the struggle for liberation of Zimbabwe, radio, and in his reply he said that Patriotic they are never mentioned, nothing. Even Front music groups failed to come forward their leaders are never mentioned, nothing. to record music. Mr. Chairman, I have since checked on this over the weekend and have Now, I would like the Minister to go into established the fact that the PF music group this. They are very sensitive issues. People did in fact come forward and they were are beginning to ask questions, who is this turned away, being told that their music Minister of Information, you tell them and was not good, because that music referred they say we know and they say that that to the PF and to the leadership of the PF. man should do something for us. Now these This is what they were told. But the Minis¬ are some of the issues. The fact is that if ter said they did not come forward — prob¬ it is intended to attract support from any ably someone is lying somewhere, I do not community, you do not have to overlook know who. Or the Minister is misinformed the grievances of that community. You do of the actual truth? not have to — you have to actually bring them to your support — but this is not the This gives the impression that these Gov¬ case. ernment instruments under this Ministry are working a specific or particular political I would not stand up in this Châmber to party. It gives that impressions. — [AN make these allegations if this were not the HON. MEMBER: Oh yes.] — It gives that case. But these are genuine issues, genuine impression — we cannot run away from the complaints, and I would like the Minister truth. I am here to state the truth. It gives to go into this seriously because someone that impression. All we need to do is to is manipulating these instruments. adjust wrong impressions by going into these matters and see actually what happened. I If I was employed by radio or TV, cer¬ am talking here of a specific incident. I am tainly I would manipulate just as they say riot accusing the Government of anything, they manipulate, and the manipulation is but it is possible, very possible, that any going on. But this is going on and I would ask political party in control may manipulate the Minister to go into this matter very things for that purpose. That is possible and seriously, because it hurts to see that there we Jiave to go into that and look at that are certain parts of the country where people seriously. never struggled at all. It gives that im¬ pression that people never struggled; the It is easy to giggle around and say it is struggle came from somewhere else and not the truth, but let us go into it together, everybody else was liberated. This is the so that we avoid these unnecessary com¬ position of our broadcasting as well as TV. plaints which we get. We bring these com¬ — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] plaints to the Minister through this Parlia¬ DR. ment because people complain. We raise SHAMUYARIRA: Mr. Chairman, I these will be very brief. There are a number of complaints about music being all one- party music, and we are told that the PF points. The hon. member Cmde. Mr. E. Ndhlovu has people did not come forward. But they did just referred to the question come of manipulation. I forward, so we are told. But they were hope that we will not turned away. manipulate these instruments of the mass media and information to the extent that Furthermore, to confirm their belief, they were manipulated by the RF because their suspicion, the peoples suspicion is that the RF had no case to defend to the people. there are certain countries, I am saying We have a good case to defend, and we do 41 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 42

not have, therefore, to manipulate to the matter which the hon. member, Mr. Landau, extent to which they went. — [MR. VAN was praising us for this afternoon, and now DER BYL: But you are doing much more.] that we have removed the subsidy because it is no longer necessary as the hotels have The songs which were to be sung by the picked up trade and the bed space occupancy PF, I do not know, I have heard a number is now up to 50 per cent, and beyond, the of songs by the PF myself on both radio subsidies are no longer as necessary as they and TV. On Heroes day, at the heroes were when bed occupancy that was very funeral, we permitted all choirs to sing. I low and because of that the Development" do not know which particular choir the hon. Fund which was specifically for that purpose member has in mind, but if there is a parti¬ — although not entirely — has been cular choir which was told to not sing, I decreased. do not think this is a common occurrence

— The hon. member comrade Mawema it must have been on very few occasions. made a number of references to the I have already said that if a specific incident increases in the two Votes that he men¬ will be referred to me, I will investigate and tioned. One of them is the increase in make sure that it does not happen again. fur¬ niture which is due to the increase of our However, I did say in my reply last offices for Information and Tourism in other Friday that if songs are good, and they countries. As you know my colleague the come from any quarter, from any cultural Minister of Foreign Affairs has announced group, they will be sung. They should be of the opening of a number of offices in good quality and the hon. member did say, foreign capitals and in all these foreign it was said by whoever told him, that they capitals we will establish information offices believed that their music was not good. to back up the work of the embassy, and Maybe that particular choir had poor music, that has involved us in increasing the Vote but there is also a further condition that I on a number of items that the hon. com¬ have been informed has been insisted upon rade Mawema, referred to. But I would say by the ZBC that is that we would not that the Ministry would echo the words of encourage — we would encourage all the Deputy Minister of Agriculture that the cultural groups to sing and to sing about total Vote should be increased significantly Zimbabwe and about unity of the nation, to meet the expanding activities of the and the solidarity of the people of Zim¬ Ministry and we may be bringing sugges¬ babwe but it would not be permitted to tions for Supplementary Estimates later in sing songs that would be divisive divide the the year when we have identified equipment not meet this nation, would objective and that is needed and we have also identified that is a further condition that the ZBC the staff. » has been insisting upon. I do not know The hon. member, comrade again whether this particular song — I do Mativenga,*' referred to the need to reduce licence fees. not know what the song is and I do not A third of the ZBC revenue comes from know what the choir is — whether this licence fees and the other two-thirds comes particular song was considered divisive or from was considered not a good quality. advertising, and if we abolished all licence fees we would remove a very large The hon. member, Mr. Shields, talked segment of earnings for the ZBC. The hon. about the decrease of the Development member, Mr. Landau, referred to the levy

, Fund for Tourism. This is because of the of the hotels and this levy was originally reduction of subsidies which the hon. mem¬ increased to assist hotels in resort areas ber, Mr. Landau, was speaking about. The which were receiving subsidies, previously Development Fund for Tourism was used only 10 per cent. Now all hotels have been to subsidise hotels to keep them going, a brought into line, and levies paid go from 43 Committee of Supply— 19™ August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 44

[The Minister of Information] in the collection, but the Report indicates the problem of collecting these, especially 50 cents for four star hotels down to 20 radio licences, and we are examining various cents for one star hotels. It is estimated we ways of collecting the licences at source will get $| million from this amount and when the items, whether radio or television, this will be used for developing the tourist are bought. It may be of interest that Afri¬ industry generally. can listeners pay in licence fees about $700 000 a The hon. member, comrade Rambane- year which is nearly $1 million and which is a pasi, referred to a number of matters and fairly large contribution, but if we collect it at source we would be I agree with him we cannot forget the past. able to collect I am being told always we must forget the up to $11 million in licences alone. past and only look to the future, because some people have a very ugly past and they I have already made reference to the want it to be concealed, but we cannot for¬ comments made by the Deputy Minister of get the past because it is part of our history. Agriculture and I agrée with most of the It is, in fact, by understanding the past that comments that he made. Let me refer we can move forward with strength and briefly and finally to a comment made by determination in the future, and when we the hon. refer member, Mr. Goddard, about the to our history, although we may be Press. He wanted guarantees that we will very critical of the last 15 years, and in fact not buy printing presses and we will not the last 90 years, we have to understand buy newspapers. Surely I do not think, as that history, we have to understand the a Government or as a party, we should be forces of repression that emerged at different prevented in a free society from buying times in our history, in order to know how newspapers and printing presses. — [HON. to handle these forces in the future and to MEMBERS: defeat Hear, hear.] them, because a country can go for¬ ward into light or it can easily slide back THE CHAIRMAN: Before I call for any into darkness, and we have to identify the further debate, I must remind the Commit¬ forces of darkness in the past so that they tee of Supply that the Minister is not do not re-emerge. responsible for the day-to-day operations of The the ZBC and, therefore, I shall not allow hon. member, Mr. Shields, in an any debate on that issue to continue. earlier comment referred to the BBC report with which I said I agreed, and which we MR. ELSWORTH: I have have used considerably for restructuring just a very brief comment I would like the Minister and re-organizing our service, but there is to consider; I do not really expect a really no conflict in the part that he quoted reply from .from him at this moment. I am not a pop the report and what my colleague, the music fan. I loathe the stuff. I believe a lot Deputy Minister of Agriculture was saying. of it comes out of We are committed to the freedom of the drug-crazy teenagers who are not Press as actually au frait with what outlined in the BBC report and, as they are doing, and I believe a lot of this I said earlier, we are providing this, free¬ pop dom. music has been given over on our local People who are working at ZBC now radio to local music for which I both white and black, feel much freer than give the Minister full remarks they have ever been in their life and in their for, but I like the Minister to consider whether he is work there, and we intend to increase the giving those of us who appreciate classical area of freedom and the area of activity. music, enough classical music over the radio. Now On the collection of licences, about 15 I do know that there are a. lot of elderly per cent, of the value of the licence is spent people in this country . .. 45 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 46

MR. MAKONI: On a point of order, I wish to put one or two specific ques¬ Mr. Chairman, you have just ruled that the tions to the Minister and that is under the Minister is not responsible for the day- first page Sub-head 'I.E. Loans — Sub¬ to-day running of programmes on the broad¬ heads not repeated. There is a sum of casting service. — [MR. LANDAU: 'But this $1 329 000, and would ask the Minister to is at night time.] — 1 believe that remark tell us exactly what that represents. is directly pertinent to the point of your I am aware that there a ruling and, therefore, I believe the hon. is note at the back of the member is out of order. Vote, that it is publicity. $1 284 000 and then, Grants, to the tune of THE CHAIRMAN: Would the hon. $45 000. But we would be grateful if the member please deal with matters pertaining Minister would be kind enough to give us to the Vote. some idea of exactly what that was applied to as regards the first part of the MR. ELSWÛRTH: I think I have been publicity, and secondly, what the grants were to, and foxed on this particular issue. what they were for. 4.20 p.m. Then on page 106 of the Estimates of 'MR. VAN DER BYE: However much I Expenditure, Item ELF — Equipment and may disagree with the Minister, I none¬ technical equipment $211 500, an increase

— theless have a very high regard for his a considerable increase of nearly ability and his capacity to defend his own $200000, approximately over the previous position and his taste. Before continuing year's $10 500. Would the Minister be good may I, therefore, express my astonishment enough to say what the nature of this tech¬ that on Friday, contrary to all normal Par¬ nical equipment used in .Information was, liamentary practice and procedure, the hon. and to what it is being applied. and beautuous Deputy Minister of Roads 4.30 p.m. a'nd Road Traffic entered the debate at great length, and now we are treated to MR. SHIELDS: I am sorry to stand up a considerable dissertation from the hon. again. — [MR. LANDAU: Don't worry.] — the Deputy Minister of Agriculture who The Minister did not reply to my question. was noted for his total silence during the With regard to if his Department was doing debate on the Agricultural Vote, but saw anything to encourage local holidays for the fit to enter this particular debate to an large proportion of the population who extensive a'nd lengthly degree. Possibly, I scarcely ever get a holiday. do not know whether he knows nothing at DR. SUA MUYAKIRA : We are taking all about agriculture . . . measures to encourage local travel and local tourism. When our plan DR. MANGWENDE: On a point of fully unfolds, there will be a order. I believe the hon. member is not component for bus transport which will enable discussing issues related to the Vote and people in various cities to travel to Victoria I believe he is out of order. Falls, Great Zim¬ babwe, the Eastern Highlands and so forth. THE CHAIRMAN: Once again may I — [MR. LANDAU: What about Kariba?] remind the hon member to restrict debate — And Kariba. You may have a hotel there. to matters pertaining to the Vote. — [MR. LANDAU: That's right.] MR. VAN DER BYL: 'I still find it odd, In answer to questions raised by the hon. and I am sure the hon. Minister is quite member for Gatooma/Hartley, (Mr. Van capable of fighting his own battles without der Byl), Item II.F, the increase in equip¬ assistance from the rear part of the Front ment is equipment for mobile cinema units Bench. and film units. We have 23 mobile cinema 47 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 48

[The Minister of Information] turn? — [MR. CHIDYAUSIKU: Sit down.]

— I would like a further assurance from the units throughout the country, as the hon. Minister that whilst the broadcasting media member should know, and much of the may promote Government policy, they will equipment there is now out of date and old at all times confine themselves to promot¬ fashioned and so forth, needs replacing, and ing the truth, the whole truth and nothing that amount is for that. but the truth. I say this advisably and cite And I.E, page 105, the item on loans, as an example a news item which was broad¬ cast ZBC — this item is to enable the Cor¬ on ZBC/TV on Monday evening relat¬ poration to purchase essential new equip¬ ing to a contact between South African ment as well. — [MR. VAN DER BYL: Defence Forces and SWAPO terrorists in

The Boardcasting Corporation?] — Yes. South West Africa. — [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] MR. VAN DER BYL: Arising out of the Minister's reply on item I.E, the amount THE CHAIRMAN: Order. May I remind of $1 329 000 — if this was in fact applied the Committee of Supply and the Minister

— to the Broadcasting Corporation — I must and this does not only apply to the Min¬ express considerable reservations as to ister of Information and Tourism — that all whether the Minister's reply is correct. I do ministers are' not responsible for the day-to¬ not in any way impute that he is misleading day operations of statutory boards — for the House, but I think he must be mistaken example in this case of the ZBC. I would because in my day certainly, any amount of advise all hon. members to restrict debate this sort would have been shown under some to matters on the Vote but not to particular special provision, vis-a-vis, broadcasting cor¬ issues that are matters of detail.

poration ... — [AN HON. MEMBER: MR. GODDARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair¬ This is not your day.] — ... and not under man. I was endeavouring to amplify my administration and general, but I am open to correction. But would the Minister be statement, the hope that Government would ensure that the good enough to check that that reply is broadcasting media which the Minister has freely admitted is under his correct? I somehow doubt it. — [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] control, would confine itself to the truth. To conclude what I was saying, whilst it was MR. GODDARD: With respect to the reported in the free Press around the world Minister, I do not believe he has answered that four South African soldiers were killed my question yet. My question was: will the and 27 terrorists were killed, on the ZBC Government endeavour to buy out the major the fact that any terrorists were killed was newspapers? — [AN HON. MEMBER: It omitted. was answered.] 4.36 p.m.

THE CHAIRMAN: Before the hon. mem¬ MR. MASANGO: The hon. member has ber goes to the next question, I rule that not heeded your warning, Mr. Chairman, one out of order because the Minister and the reference to guerillas as terrorists is answered when the hon. member was not not acceptable by this House ■—■ [MR. present. —■ [MR. MAKONI: He is out of RAMBANEPASI: Inaudible interjection.] order. He should sit down.] — The hon. member has the protection of the Chair. MR. GODDARD: On a point of order, I have just been called a terrorist by an MR. GODDARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair¬ hon. member and I will not accept that sort

man. I thank the Minister for'his replies. — of language in this House. A ruling was [HON. MEMBERS : Inaudible interjections.] given from the Chair and I ask for pro¬ ■— Do you want to talk or can I have a tection from the Chair. 49 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 50

MR MASANGO: I am afraid some of correct reply to his answer is that the Vote the hon. members do not seem to understand in question is the Publicity which was English, because you have made a ruling provided for. several times this afternoon, and they seem Vote 24 to continue to repeat the same story over put and agreed to. and over again. — [MR. VAN DER BYL: On Vote 21 — Home Affairs — But do they?] $88 665 000. THE CHAIRMAN: May I remind all hon. members to restrict their remarks to 4.40 p.m. this Vote before the committee. MR. SHIELDS: This Ministry has the MR. GODDARD: I still have not had good fortune to have under it the very an apology from the hon. member who efficient Police Force of this country .. . called me a — terrorist, and I seek the [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear] . . . protection of the Chair. I believe that we — and I would like to pay a small tribute to are in a democratic society and it is my ■the Police of this country. They have had right as a member of a democratic society lots of ups and" downs. They have had a

in the manner in which I wish to . . . — very difficult several years behind them [HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible interjections.] and let us hope that in the years that are in front of them, they to get THE CHAIRMAN: Would the hon. mem¬ will be able back to thçir ber withdraw the remark? primary duties of detection of crime and the maintenance of law and MR. RAMBANEPASI: I will not with¬ order in this country. draw the words because the Chairman gave ' It is a ruling that the words that were used disturbing to hear of the many previously should not be used here, and it resignations from the Force and no major is the same hon. member who raised that undertaking such as the Police Force can issue, ahd he is also calling other people lose large numbers of very experienced and worth-while men without terrorists. He is also a terrorist because of suffering some ill effects. I his use of that word. congratulate the Minister whom I believe has endeavoured to the best of THE CHAIRMAN: Would the hon. mem¬ his ability to reassure the Police Force and ber withdraw the remark. to make them realise that they are needed in the future, that they are going to be MR. RAMBANEPASI: I am sorry, Mr. looked up to, that they are going to have Chairman, I still insist he is a terrorist. support of the citizens of this country in the THE CHAIMAN: Will you withdraw the future. remark? Now I have a couple of questions to ask MR. RAMBANEPASI: I withdraw, Mr. the Minister about several other matters. Chairman. Of course the first one must be the Board of Censors. We have, over The past few THE CHAIRMAN: May 'I make the final months, unfortunately, or the Minister who appeal that we become reasonable with our has just had his Vote put through, his use of the language? Ministry has been used by a very energetic DR. SHAMUYARIRA: I want to .make Senator whose attempts to get the Board

one clarification to the hon. member for of Censors ridiculed, have extended to Gatooma (Mr. van der Byl). He was right. having free TV coverage and advertising, as The number which I referred to was the his view, that the Board of Censors should wrong one. The correct number and the be abolished. 51 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 52 tMr. Shieldsl interjector, because he obviously does not know the vagaries of being a member of I do not know if any hon. members of Parliament. One can be faced with an this House who have the good of the com¬ election within about six months I can munity at large at heart, have taken the assure you. But a trouble to find out what the Board of nevertheless, it is fact that we do need a registration of voters, Censors have been doing in the past, but that is the only way to run a normal elec¬ many of us have examined some of the tion, and have the results accepted without disgusting material which the Board of any questions being asked. Censors have prevented from being spread to the detriment, I can assure you, of the Now even among the white voters, there young and maybe not so young people of has not been a registration for I believe up to this country. I would like to ask the Minis¬ six years. This is too long. There is a ter, has he investigated the usefullness of the tremendous movement of voters and also Board of Censors? Does he agree that the other vicissitudes such as people leaving the Board of Censors perform a very useful country, dying, et cetera which changes it task in preventing some of the extremely continuously, and in fact I believe provision pornographic and useless material which has is made to have a re-registration of voters been prevented at the moment from enter¬ approximately every five or six years, so ing this country only because the Board I would be interested to hear the Minister's of Censors apply their code rigidly? I would opinions as to when he is going to have a ask the Minister to tell the House registration of voters started because it is whether he supports the Board of Censors going to be a job that takes at least two to in this matter because it is very essential, three years'and by then, we will be ready for I believe, that he does. We do not want the next election. our young people in this country, black or A further matter regarding National white, being subjected to the tremendous Registration; I would like to hear from the pressures and money-making game of sup¬ Minister as to how the National Regis¬ plying them with all types of pornogra¬ tration campaign is going. I would also phic material. like the assurance that there is no necessity to hand in the old Now, on the re-registration of voters, registration identity discs, because I do not know the which comes under the Ministry, I see a numbers, but very small sum has been allocated to the maybe about half the population has registration of voters and I believe the already registered under the old scheme. Has he Minister, on an occasion in the past, has any plans on when this National mentioned the fact that there was not a Registration is going to be completed? I know it register of voters available for the black will never be finished but the voters in this country, and I would have present scheme, when will it be completed? I do notice a said it would take more than $5 000 which great fluctuation in the num¬ bers is the figure allocated in the Vote for this using the National Registration offices. I also notice that it is now purpose. Now I wonder, is it not the inten¬ always Govern¬ ment tion of the Ministry within the very near policy to keep reminding the popula¬ tion that future, Mr. Chairman, to have a registration they should register. One would of voters because I believe this absolutely hope that it would be a steady flow of regis¬ trations in the National necessary. I know this seems to be a tremen¬ Registration scheme and so make it an dous task, but obviously if this Govern¬ easy, or a reasonably easy exercise, and also an economical ment has got another three or four years to exercise. run, now is the time to start. —[AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible interjection.] — I am And if the Minister, the Ministry I not prepared to pay much attention to the believe, can be reminding the population 53 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 54 that it was necessary for them tp register efforts is the Minister of Home Affairs on to this National Registration scheme, then making in recruiting young men and women a re-registration of voters would be a much because I believe that in order to do this we easier exercise because once this was done, must have more money, given policemen that can be produced when the registration better salaries so as to attract young men of voters takes place, and using this for and women. Now, if we do not do that, identification purpose when the list can be most of them will be disuaded from joining drawn up of voters for the next election. the Police and go elsewhere. So that if we So I offer these suggestions to the Minister make more money available, more men and and will be quite interested to hear what women will come forward to join the Police he replies. and the question of having a peoples militia will fall away. That is the only MR. MALUNGA: Mr. Chairman, firstly question I have. I would like to commend the Minister for his considered efforts to reorientate the IHR. TADERERA: Thank you Mr. Chair¬ Zimbabwe Police to suit the needs of the man. I think it is quite something that I people of this country. No doubt as far as am standing up to contribute on a very I look at things, it is this Department at important debate. The Vote for the Minister the moment, under the conditions of peace of Home Affairs, all in all I would like to which is the most important in this country. be very brief in my comments. First of all As a result I would have felt that the I would like to congratulate the Minister on allocation given here falls short of the mark the way he has so far tackled the many of what I would have recommended be¬ questions relevant to this Ministry. To date cause we need to have a considered effort the Ministry of .Home Affairs, I think and I to recruit young men and women the am inclined to think, have managed to put Police and by so doing, we shall actually forward a working solution acceptable to be avoiding what I read in the Press the even members of those inherited forces, and other day, where it was said by some people we are dabbling with taxpayers money when that there should be created a people's the rank and file of people were of the militia. opinion that on moneys that were going to be forthcoming, either in wages or whatever I would think the creation of a peoples field for the people who were in the Police. militia would .bring a lot of difficulties in But I would I think here, the Ministry of that the people would be involved, and it Home Affairs should make great emphasis would bring about the of a lot of spending on the enforcement of reorientation because money, and to supervise the public is a very if we do not embark on an exercise such as dfilficult task, because if you have weapons this, we are not going to get very far as floating about, it obviously creates more far as the people are concerned. problems for the law and order department — [AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear.] I realise that we are confronted by the Government Now the Police Force . . . policy of reconciliation, Whilst we are on point of trying to reconcile these THE CHAIRMAN: Order. On a point of warring groupings in this country, it is the order, there is not any reference to a Police Force who will bring about this people's militia in the Vote before the reconciliation because it is indeed the Committee. behaviour of the Police towards the public MR. MALUNGA: Yes I thank you Mr that will make the machin'ery of reconcilia¬ Chairman. But there is a question I would tion possible and shorten the period that we like to ask the Minister. Now in view of envisage this reconciliation exercise is going the fact that we need more policemen to to take. All in all, we have quite a good number of inherited forces who are help us maintain law and order, what allergic 55 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 56

[Mr. Taderera] find is quite a complicated affair, But I go back to the point that in this country to change, and I think those who fall under sentiment or emotion, I may hold, are out- that grouping should not be allowed to weighted by Government policy of recon¬ continue to enjoy taxpayers' money — and ciliation, so we have to believe this policy here I repeat that — to continue to enjoy, and go ahead, but they can only go ahead taxpapers' money whilst you fall under this when they show and realize that change is category is a futile exercise on the part of what they have to abide by, and go by in Government. Here again the Minister of their day-to-day work. Home Affairs is called upon to marshall all his forces to see to it that colleges are 5.59 p.m. established where policemen are going to be MR. MAWEMA: In debating this Vote trained, to follow in the steps of inter¬ of Home Affairs, I first of all would like nationally accepted calls of behaviour, that to point out that Zimbabwe has been un¬ is to say the people look to the police as fortunate in the pa'st, in that it had a Police their friends and the police look to the Force that was orientated to a military people as their assistants because the Police type of system. The position of the Police can only work and maintain public law and to the public is that of a friend; their's order in a country when they get the assist¬ is to assist and not to harass, 'but because ance of the public and we should also run of the system under which we lived in the to the Police for assistance without fear, and past, the Police forgot their position and here impartiality must be emphasized took up the position of the military man because it is the policeman who has to be who used to push people around. — [AN impartial as to how he handles the public. HON. MEMBER: Whose fault was that?] — It all centres around this money allocated It is the fault of the Goddards and the to this Ministry. Gaunts we Itave around here. I am happy Whilst I think it is a small amount, we that to-day we have a Minister and a still have forces that have to be reorientated, 'Deputy who have been involved in the I think it is a fairly reasonable amount struggle, who have been harrassed by the allocated to the Ministry of Home Affairs Police and who are duty-conscious and will for the beginning, but this House will still be directing the Police in the right manner. be asked by the Ministry of Home Affairs It must be for a further Vote in the event of him appreciated that the man who holds this finding the difficulties in the size of his position has suffered greatly, and because he is a father and is Vote we are debating now. All in all, I typical of an believe that the Prime Minister and even African, he is going to forgive the wrong¬ 'but let it be" made clear here that the Government as a whole and the House, doers, have public will not understand him if he lets accepted that to build a country we them behave in that manner must bave strong forces of law and order, they used to do before. and here comes the question as to how we are going to model in the framework of the Coming to the Vote itself, I find that the Vote this Police Force to be an authentic 1980-81 Vote is $13 million less than the representative or a defender of the public. 1979-80 Vote. This does surprise me, 'If that is going to be done, all the better because first of all we are in a new era because the people should be understood — where we are going to need more qualified and I talk of people from the point of view young men to come into the Police, and that they are the taxpayers and the con¬ that we would have needed more money tinuance of their own money being enjoyed for this Vote than the $88 million. I do by the very people at whose hands they not know how this reduction has been suffered yesterday and yesterday, you will arrived at, and 1 would be pleased if the 57 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 58

Minister could make a statement to this ment and this Government happens to be effect. a peoples government, so they should not have any problems in fitting themselves The most important thing about the in. policeman is that he must, like all other people, be satisfied in his job. His uniform Aga'in I would like to congratulate the must be attractive, he must have a good Ministry for changing the name British salary, he must be happy to be promoted South Africa'Police to Zimbabwe Republic to a senior position. There has been talk Police. — [AN. HON. MEMBER: Hear, of massive resignations by Whites from hear.] — The people want to see change the Police and and this is naturally they will be re¬ naked change —■ congratulations. placed by able Africans and these we have The plenty of; we are not scared of those who change in the general attitude of the Police will be guided by announcements as want to leave because they left anyway before we they will be coming from the Minister, and took independence, so it is only I think more statements from a question of packing their bags now. What you, Sir, with regard to the role of the 1 would like the Minister to explain do policemen. Pre¬ this House is what steps have been taken sently the Police are not well accepted by the with regard to promotional schemes for the people, because they have helped in a manner that is policeman. I think it has been the tendency contrary to people's expec¬ of the tations. previous regime that a young white man will start as patrol officer whilst a Some of them still say we were under¬ black man will start as constable. Is it not mined with previous regimes and still time that we started on a uniform scheme undermined by the Government. I think so that these men will do their job with con¬ this is unnacceptable to the people, and the fidence? Police must be advised to drop this attitude. The question of salaries, I think, also On page 91 of the Estimates of Expendi¬ bears greatly on the efficiency of the police¬ ture — Administration and General — I.E: man. It is rather depressing that a man Grants: National Museums and Monuments. who ha's been in service for 20 years still 1979 — $592 000 and in 1980, $850 000. Has earns far less than a young white man who the Minister taken into consideration money"'' enters the police service to-day as a patrol that will be acquired from the sale of the officer; something really needs to be done statues of Rhodes and others which will here because when a young man -gets into bring us a good revenue. this new position, he earns more than Then I his senior, he has no respect for his senior go to page 93 under Immigration Control. and I think the Minister would be well III.C—Incidental expenses. Depor¬ tation — a advised to consider this point of salary. drop of $8 000. This surprises me because we have so many mal-contents With regard to the behaviour of the in this country who will be deported. The Police generally, I saw it with my own Ministry should have asked for more money eyes, and I am happy that the Deputy because we have saboteurs coming into the Minister undertook a mission to go to country, and they will be deported and the various areas, addressing the Police and Government will have to pay for those leaders our of two important parties in deportations. There will be a lot of work this country, telling the policemen what to be done to screen saboteurs coming in. their rolp was. The policeman is not there Money will also be required for the Immi¬ to harass and not to resist change, but grants' Selection Board. I would have to accept and the policeman does not be¬ thought we would need more staff, there long to an individual but to Govern¬ so that we do not have saboteurs penetrating 59 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 60

[Mr. Mawema] areas. For this reason stock theft is now at a very low level in the Midlands. the country. Zimbabweans are naturally peaceful people but we can be disturbed Poaching of game is another problem that by people coming in posing as friends. I they have had to contend with. Snaring of think it is the duty of the Ministry of Home game, snaring of cattle — this has been Affairs to watch, especially South Africans. brought under control.

5.09 p.m. We know in the urban areas, particularly in Salisbury and Bulawayo where we have MR. ELSWORTH: I have been instruc¬ a major refugee problem, inevitably, we are ted by my constituency of Midlands to going to get an increase in the crime rate express, to — through the Minister his Minis¬ housebreakings and theft — and the try and officials of his Ministry, our great Police are constantly battling against this and deep appreciation and admiration for and, I believe, containing it to manageable the work they have done in the last diffi¬ proportions. I think under these conditions cult period. the House should show a degree of gratitude and Iii the Midlands, we seem to have expe¬ give the Police full marks for what they have achieved. rienced all the problems that the Police could have course a experienced in the of I repeat my constituency of Midlands lifetime. We have had the dissidents. We has asked me to convey their gratitude. have had a very major breakdown of law and order. We have had stock theft and a I would like to ask the Minister under multitude of others. Bus robberies and VG. for the Vote for Zimbabwe Republic what have you. And we have had every one Police. Reservists — $1 200 000 this year. It of these problems sorted out by the Police was $6 million last. Last year we were in in a most exemplary manner. a state of war, so this high sum was under¬ standable. But in conditions existing to-day It is for this reason that I offer the Minis¬ why is the reservist Vote of SI 200 000 so ter our admiration and gratitude to the high? members of his Police Force. We know the THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS problems they have had to contend with. Shortage of staff. Change of a political (MR. J. M. NKOMO): First I would like to thank both sides òf the House for their system. Change of Government. Yet at no time, in spite of these, have they ever erred very kind remarks about our Ministry and about the work that the Police are from their duty. doing.

I cannot agree fully with the previous The hon. member, Mr. Shields, wanted speakers who said the Police have not been to know whether we support the Censor¬ impartial. I believe they have been impar¬ ship Board. He has said this because an tial. In our area they have more or less con¬ hon. senator had advocated the dissolution trolled the dissident element. We have had of the board. I think we have made our plenty of them. All this has been sorted position perfectly clear, that the board has out in a most pleasant manner. a very essential job to do. — [HON. MEM¬ BERS: Hear, hear.] — [MR. ELSWORTH: Stock theft in the Midlands was about Keep it up too.] the last area where we had a very major problem to contend with, and this has been I think the Deputy Minister met the hon. reduced to negligible proportions, thanks to Senator and showed him some of the the Police. Anytime they were called out, material — pornography material t- [MR. they Came out immediately and went in a ELSWORTH: It comes from Britain.] — most thorough manner into the stock theft It comes from a number of countries 61 Committee of 19th Supply— August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 62

He was horrified and he including Britain. worked out the new forms and nature of now supports the Board, and anybody who the registration cards. As the name of the may not be aware of the type of material country has now been established, the cam¬ that comes from overseas, I am sure after paign for the registration has been revived viewing some of this material will see how and we intend launching a very big cam¬ much we owe to the board for the excellent paign for the registration of the entire work they are doing. — [HON. MEMBERS: population. This is vital if Government has Hear, hear.] — Having said this, we have to get information which is required by all also felt that that portion of the Board's forms of administration in the country, and work which pertained to material which we have to have a clear knowledge of what was banned because of their political the population as a whole is. inclination, this one they should be relieved of and I was also the situation now, I am sure, does questioned by the hon. mem¬ not need the attack of censorship. I should ber, Mr. Taderera, regarding the re¬ orientation of emphasize once again that this other func¬ the Police Force. Let me assure the hon. tion of the Board is supported by the member that we are doing Ministry, and I am sure the public at large everything possible to re-orientate our should Police Force. There is help in supporting this very valuable general training for the job of our censors. entire Police Force and in it we have

included the re-orientation of our men so There was the that question, also by the hon. they take up their place in their new member Mr. Shields, of the small Vote allo¬ role which is different from that which they cated to the had registration of voters. Now the to play during the years of the struggle. figure that is shown on the Estimates relates This is going to take time. We have always only to possible elections, that is the by- appealed to the public to understand that it elections that may take place during the does take time to reorientate people, taking period of the term of this present Govern¬ into account that it is not only the fact that ment. The we have Vote for the registration of had these periods of the war but voters will be that we presented after the Delimita¬ have had a history of a population tion Commission has worked out various that has been put into compartments, and that it is problems that we are going to face, and not going to be easy for us to the knowledge of the nature of the Delimi¬ bring about as quickly as people want us to tation Commissions' recommendations. It is do —-a complete change in attitudes, not only then that the assessment of the only of the Police Force but of the popula¬ amount required for registering voters tion as a whole. should be known and, therefore, this has There has been created in the minds of been deferred until such time that the Deli¬ people in this country this mitation Commission will have worked out and in part of the world general attitudes that have to be in detail how much will be required. changed and, of course, the years during the war did complicate emotional issues. The other point brought out by the hon. member, Mr. Shields, is the question of the There has been also a question of the National Registration campaign. What has reduction of the Vote of the Police Force happened to the registration of the people by $13 000 000. The hon. member, Mr. by our National Registration Department? Mawema, wanted to know why the decrease. I should mention here that the change of I think it has to be appreciated that during name from Rhodesia to Zimbabwe has the last few years our Police Force was brought with it the necessity for reorga¬ geared to a situation of war, and various nising our general registration. We have had expensive equipment was required. The to stop issuing all cards until we have Police needed weapons, ammunition, mili- 63 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 64

[The Minister of Home Affairs] So, Mr. Chairman, the problems are being whittled away and hon. members will dis¬ tary-type radios, and so' on. You can go cover that the fears that people have that on mentioning those gadgets which were there will be opposition, in fact those fears required for the Police during the last few are baseless. years. This is now over and, therefore, the decrease has been brought about from that Mr. Chairman, I have tried to answer all saving of equipment which we do not need the questions of the hon. members. We have now. a pleasant task in that we find ourselves, The hon. member also wanted to find especially when it comes to the Police, that out what the position of the Police Force the men that go up are the men that have is. Will there be any promotions of the risen through the ranks. This gjves us satis¬ Africans? We now promote them in terms faction and I am sure this-House will, when of Africans and Europeans. On the ques¬ the time comes that our plans are an¬ tion of the point of entrf, the hon. mem¬ nounced, join us in the pleasure that we ber wanted to know whether the Police pay have experienced through out the period. between black and white members will con¬ There was a question by the hon. mem¬ tinue to be different. Let me say this, that ber, Mr. Mawema, of the importance of the new recruits into the Police Force in bringing about more recruitment of Afri¬ that entry point, that is the Patrol Officer, cans, and he felt that the cut in the Vote 90 per cent, of the new recruits are Afri¬ might hamper this cause. In fact we are cans, so that you will no longer think in recruiting over 1 000 people within the next terms of what is going to happen to the few months and, should there be need for African. The African young men and extra money, we shall bring in our Supple¬ women are now coming in in big numbers mentary Vote and I am sure that it will be as patrol officers, and the pay is the same, forthcoming. so there is no problem there. With regard to the present structure on Mr. Chairman, I hope that there will be the promotion of the present policemen, the less debate on this very important Vote, African Police, the positions of authority, because all hon. members here realize the although this has not yet gone through — importance of our Vote for the security of our the processes such as the presidential order country, and for bringing about peace and any and so on — they are in hand — plans are tranquility which is essential if of the activities of country, are in hand which will see a number of police this to succeed. officers rising to almost the top, if not Thank you. — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, exactly the top. We shall have men in all hear.] ranks, assuming our plans have gone MR. CARTWRIGHT: Mr. Chairman, I throbgh, and are approved, and I am sure agree with the Minister that this is a most this House and the entire population will be difficult period for our Police. But I believe very happy to know that these changes, that one of "the most important considera¬ which will be coming about, are welcomed tions facing our country is the maintenance by the entire Police Force. There has been of law and order. ' no resistance from any quarter and it was I have two questions to put to the Min¬ very pleasing — it was a pleasant and it ister at the moment. Would he care to com¬ still is a pleasant job, because we have not ment on the standard of training of those yet completed it — to know that those who have for a number of years held this type policemen or recruits trained in overseas of responsible position have been very help¬ countries, in comparison with the high standard ful in our working out the promotion of the required for recruitment into our African Police. own force. And secondly, we frequently hear 65 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 66 morale and status of our police is con¬ is human nature ... but on the whole the stantly being undermined. How does the Police Force has done very well indeed. It is not Minister propose to correct this query. everybody in the country who blames the policeman, but what we have MR. J. M. NKOMO: Mr. Chairman, I do done is to ask the members of the public not think that we have any problem of to bring specific complaints agaipst specific comparing the standard of training between policeman, rather than generalisation, aur locally trained police and those trained because generalisation is a very dangerous abroad. The training of the police is the thing and hurts most, those of the men and same all the world over. What we have done, women who are loyal and doing their work what we are doing, is to bring those young well. men who have been trained abroad in line with the various requirements within the The man who has decided to be difficult country. Otherwise the basic training of the is not hurt; he feels good when these criticisms young men and women who have been come, and he knows that they trained outside the country is just as good will hurt those of his comrades who have as ours. But we have lived in a closed been doing their daily work perfectly well, society, where we believed that everything so our appeal has been and still is to the we did was better than anybody else else¬ public of this country to particularise and where. Well, when you come to examine not give a blanket criticism of these men and women who are these things, you will discover that it is doing an excellent not so. We may excel in one or two things, job. They are treading our streets at but ycu will discover that there are other night when we are asleep, and of course things that the other people excel in. with their families who do without them at a time when families. are together, so we When you bring this together, you get a have got to appreciate This. But having said blend, a very fine blend, which assists both this, I must warn those of these men who the police that have been trained in this deliberately want to put the good name of country and thoje that have been trained our Police Force into disrepute. abroad. 5.37 p.m. As to the hon. member's second question about the lowering of the morale of the MR. LANDAU: I have no intention of Police Force, he has not spelled out exa¬ standing up to criticise the Police; I want ctly what he thinks brings this about. But to leave them alone in the remote hope that I know that there have been people who they might reciprocate the situation as far have critisised the Police Force. It is as I am concerned. I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister of the natural, because the Police Force — if you portion of his Vote are working, if you are active, you are dealing with the Censorship Board bound to be criticised and be praised at the and I would like to pay tribute to the members of the same time. The praises do not get into our Censorship Board in the work that newspapers. It is the criticisms that are pub¬ they have done in the past and which I lished, and people come to believe that hope they will do in the future. I there are more criticisms than praise. I would like to ask the Minister please to think that our Police Force is a seasoned convey to the Censor Board the thanks of one, which has a very fine body of men my side of the House for the work that within it. There is no question of that. But they have done. There is unfortunately we have also some misfits; that is normal some move afoot, I understand, to introduce a debate in another House in connection in any group of people, you are bound to with the get that type of man or woman, who will Censorship Control Act and I would like to take this not accept change, but this is natural, this opportunity of 67 Committee of Supply— • 1 9th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 68

[Mr. Landau] question of pornography; it is abhorrent to see some of the stuff that comes from pointing out that I approve 100 per cent, overseas to this country. of censorship when it comes to the subject of pornography and undesirable literature MR. GODDARB: I feel it no less than that floods the markets of Europe and other my duty to bring to attention of the Minis¬ parts of the world. ter the very real concern which members of my. constituency, which is a We have been protected for many years large rural feel as from this type of literature and I do thank constituency, regards to worsening law and order situation. I have referred to the Censorship Board for so doing. Those it in my contribution to people who wish to do away with censor¬ Budget Debate, and I would like to amplify my remarks ship in this particular aspect — and I slightly for the Minister who is now present. would make the point here now that I am It is not only in respect of former free¬ referring to censorship in respect of un¬ dom fighters who are not desirable publications, in other words pub¬ remaining in the assembly areas and abiding by law and lications of a pornographic type and porno¬ order, who a're creating acts of lawlessness graphic material as well — those who wish and acts of unspeakable to do away with the censorship of this brutality upon the civilian population. particular type of material, I would say are doing the country no favour at all. I feel It would also appear, most especially in quite sure, Mr. Chairman, that you will the eastern portion of the country, that the find that even the hon. members opposite civilian population as a whole is almost my Bench would feel much the same way ceasing to have the regard for the Police about it. I do not believe it is the African Force that it used to have. There are tradition and culture to encourage porno¬ several explanations for this; they believe graphy; I think if anything their culture is that perhaps they have uhuru they do not more strict and rigorous than that of ours. have to listen to the forces of law and I would hate to see anybody do away with order, as one of the hon. members on the the censorship of these particular items .. . Government Bench said earlier —• adequately [MR. DIVARIS: The Minister has on, who formerly represented what they already said so] — ... and I would rea'lly regarded as an oppressive regime. That is and truly hope that the hon. Senator who one of the explanations. Another is that was watching this debate earlier in the there are many of them who believe that afternoon takes note of what I say, and because the portfolio is held by someone of gives considerable to dropping the whole a different tribe and a different political subject completely from his mind, a'nd I persuasion, that in fact the Police represent would appreciate a comment from the Minis¬ an arm of that political party and therefore ter that he approves of_jvhat 1 have said they should not be held to account in this by the respect. Police.

MR. J. M. NKÖMO: I fhink I have Whatever the explanation, the effect upon already said so; I think my only task is the civilian population of all races is to say thank you to the hon. member for extremely serious. I would give the Minister the support he has given now, so we are an example. A particular farmer who owns going to convey his support together with some 25 000 acres adjacent to a TTL, which 'the support of the opposite side of the farm he had to abandon during the course House to the members of the Censorship of the war because of stocktheft, believed Board. That will be adding to the support that with the cessation of hostilities he we give them because of the valuable job would be able to move back on to his farm, they are doing, and particularly on this re-stock it with cattle, replace his fencing 69 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Estimates of Expenditure. 70 and pumps, et cetera and down to the tions do not help anybody. If there are any business of growing food for the country. people anywhere, if the hon. member knows However, the position now is that lawless¬ of farmers whose fences have been stripped ness is even worse that it was before. The and houses pulled to pieces — I do not know tribesmen have absolutely no regard what¬ how anybody can knock out the door soever for the forces of law and order, and frames if someone lives in there. That type have gone so far as to steal every single of thing does not help anybody. When we strand of fencing on the place. They have get a report of this type, we follow it up stripped three houses on the farm of their and trace the people, and they are brought door frames, window frames, roofing to book. materials, plumbing and everything of that It does not help to say the situation is nature and continuous police investigation serious and the country upside down. We into the matter has revealed absolutely have got to consider that we are living in nothing, and, if anything, the civilian days of ... — [MR. STUTTAFORD: population, the local, ridicule the Police. Reconciliation.] — ... yes, reconciliation, but a I would also cite the example of the town period that pushes us from days of tension. at Fort Victoria where the local authorities and the Police are having a great deal of I would like hon. members to appreciate difficulty in retaining law and order purely this that no one ever thought that after the because the^ local inhabitants, partiuclarly war we have had, Zimbabwe would be as the black people, seem to have no respect quiet as it is . . . — [HON. MEMBERS: for the Police. I am sure the Minister is Hear, hear.]- — ... despite the problems aware of the problems and I would ask him here and there. People Should know that if he could possibly give this Committee after a veld fire you are bound to have some indication of what new tactics, if any, smoulderings here and there. This is not the Police propose to adopt in order to another veld fire. It is just smoulderings that prevent this most alarming trend amongst will burn themselves out. This is the natural portions of our civilian population. situation of to-day.

Before concluding, I would like to join To say that people are horrified by what other hon. members in praising the Police is happening — of course we do have Force for the efforts which they do put incidents here and there, and comparing forward. I do not believe that at any time our situation with situations elsewhere after anybody can in all honesty level a complaint a war similar to the one we have gone towards the Police Force, which indicates through, I think we are doing very well that they are not interested in their job; indeed, and people should encourage the these are exceptionally dedicated men and people who are behaving themselves after do a job with the sort of pay which I a very difficult period. believe very few people in this world do, When some of us sit down and think of and I would like to add to other hon. what happened a few months back, you members my own praise and congratulations. would think twice. Am I still in that era where such things But 5.45 p.m. happened? after all, that has happened, you have the compara¬ MR. J. M. NKOMO: I do not think that tive quiet that we have in this country — the hon. member is really painting the I think the people of this country deserve right picture of the situation. As far as I praise for having controlled themselves the know the position of law and order is way they have done, after what happened improving. — [MR. CHIDYAUSIKU: He during the last 15 years. — [HON. MEM¬ BERS: is always exaggerating.] — These exaggera¬ Hear, hear.] 71 Motion— 19th August, 1980. Adjournment of the House. 72

5.49 p.m. We are absolutely flabbergasted, disgusted by his desire to have effected a coup, by THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRI¬ his desire to have prevented the formation CULTURE: Mr. Chairman, I request that of the Government which is sitting in this you do now report progress and ask leave House to-day, by requesting the Prime to sit again. Minister of the United Kingdom to declare Motion put and agreed to. the elections which were held earlier this year null and void, simply because the House resumed. results had gone in the manner which he did not Progress reported. prefer. — [MR. GÖDDARD: You have got it mixed up.] Committee of Supply to resume: 20th August. And maybe circumstances demanded that this MOTION Peter Walls be employed in the security forces of our country after the elections. ADJURNMENT OF THE HOUSE The wisdom of that is best left to the people who were THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRI¬ directly involved in employing him, but this revelation of utter lack of CULTURE: I move that the House do now adjourn. faith by Peter Walls in the Government which he serves disturbs the general public, LIEUTENANT-GENERAL disturbs us as the leadership of the public, PETER WALLS and indeed leads to the heightening of un¬

5.52 p.m. certainty amongst the public of both black and white. MR. SHAVA: It was not my intention to We would speak. I would like simply to make a like, therefore, the Minister to indicate to this few points on matters that are causing a' lot House, now that the of concern and discontent amongst my explanation has been given by hon. mem¬ bers 'back-benchers and myself. This refers to the opposite —- perhaps not so much the statement made 'by the Minister of Informa¬ precise nature as to the assurance that administrative or tion and Tourism last Friday which has re¬ legal steps will be taken ceived an explanation from the hon. mem¬ against Peter Walls, and that in any case ber, leader of the Party opposite, regard¬ an exercise will be engaged which seeks ing the statements made in the media by to establish the allegations which have been General Peter Walls. levelled at him, and if he is found guilty of those allegations, then that the law We are, in this side, concerned by what takes its course and the necessary punish¬ the Minister said because we feel and fear ments are executed. that in fact if what the Minister told -this House is what this hon. gentleman by the We have listened this afternoon to the name of Peter Walls is engaging in, then hon. member the hon. Ian Smith dis¬ it is only right that we respond and seek associating himself from what Peter Walls full debate and clarification from the Gov¬ did because he says is none of his business. ernment on the person of Peter Walls. We have also listened to the hon. member Particularly as someone who is holding the hon. Ian Smith disassociating himself responsibility in the Government, although from Operation Quartz. This can only be he is on leave pending retirement; but the seen as a healthy position on the part of fact is that he is still a public servant and the members opposite, that if in fact they the statements which he makes of a security did not know about Operation Quartz and nature cause concern amongst back¬ if in fact they did not participate in any benchers. activities that Peter Walls intended to effect; 73 Motion— 19th August, 1980. Adjournment of the House. 74

then they were in the right track and we MR. LANDAU: On a point of order, would like to compliment them for being I would go so far as to say, Mr. Speaker, in that right track. — [AN HON. MEM¬ that the very ruling that you made less than BER: Thank you.] a minute ago is now being contravened by the hon. member opposite. It is perfectly We have also listened to rather a back¬ correct, is it not, that the hon. member may tracking by the same hon. member when not refer to the statement made by the hon. he accused the Minister of attacking the member Mr. Ian Smith this afternoon. —■ white community. There could not 'be a [DR. USHEWOKUNZE: What is so sacro¬ greater misunderstanding of what the Minis¬ sanct about it?] ter said, because I was just reading Hansard, MR. SPEAKER: I trying to find out precisely where the Minis¬ would be most grate¬ ter attacked the white community. The ful if hon. members would limit debate to Minister did not attack the white com¬ discussion on the Minister's statement con¬ munity. The Minister attacked those white cerning General Peter Walls. persons who have the same notions as Peter MR. SHAVA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Walls, and indeed I would like to join the I want to go baok to Operation Quartz, Minister in attacking the white persons who which the Minister referred to and which had the same subversive intentions as Peter was also referred to in the explanation. Walls. — [MR. GODDARD: Only whites?] Unfortunately, I cannot avoid this. — [MR. — Yes. — [MR. GODDARD: You are a GODDARD: You must, you will have to, racist.] — I am replying to an allegation you have been told to.] •— Shut up. from a white member who alleged than 'the Minister attacked white people. MR. SPEAKER: Order. Will the hon. member please withdraw the statement shut¬ MR. SPEAKER: It is not appropriate to ting up other hon. membeis. discuss the hon. member Mr. Ian Smith's personal explanation. Hon. members should MR. SHAVA: 1 withdraw, Mr. Speaker, limit debate to the issue of General Peter but I would tike to be protected fully because if the hon. members stand Walls. — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear.] up, I am bound to answer and I do not want to MR. SHAVA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. repeat that he should shut up. We put ourselves in avery difficult position because if I refer to the statement made I am going back to Operation Quartz by the Minister, and fail to refer to the because Operation Quartz is alleged to have explanation given to that statement, then I involved, by the explanation this afternoon, will not be complete in what I intend to an alliance with certain black persons in give this House. I do not intend to dwell this country and therefore the Minister, because he a on the hon. member's explanation except made statement which is said in so far as it relates to the statements made to have not included this alliance, was accused of by the Minister and in so far as it relates being a racist, and I would like to refute this and throw it back to the to the person of Peter Walls.' This is all I am trying to do, and I will try to make my people who made this very statement, and that he is himself an anarchist if he point as short as possible, because the hon. cannot member, Mr. Smith, did in fact attack the understand what the Minister was trying to Minister on 'the basis of his statement. —1 explain here. — [HON. MEMBERS: In¬ audible [MR. GODDARD: You are talking interjections.] about General Walls.] — Yes. With regard MR. CARTWRIGHT: On a point of to General Walls, the Minister said that the order. Operation Quartz ... — [HON. MEM¬ BERS: Inaudible interjections.] MR. SPEAKER: Order. 75 Motion— 19th August, 1980. Adjournment of the House. 76

MR. CARTWRIGHT: Mr. Speaker, some 6.05 p.m. years ago I had occasion to make a per¬ MR. VAN DER BYL: On a point of sonal explanation in this House and Mr. order, Mr. Speaker, may we know on whose Speaker at that time, upheld the decision behalf the Minister is answering? Is he you have just given, and that is that no answering on behalf of Government as a reference — that the thing should be heard whole and the Prime Minister or for the in silence, and no debate should ensue on a Minister of Defence because, after all, the personal explanation made by an hon. mem¬ Minister is the Minister of ber. Health, and this would not appear to be one of his respon¬ MR. SPEAKER: That is, -in fact, the pro¬ sibilities, the questions which have been vision of the Standing Orders, and I regret raised by the Chief Whip. that I have to comply with them. The hon. THE MINISTER OF HEALTH: On a member Mr. Ian Smith made a statement point of order, Mr. Speaker, I am the this afternoon explaining the position of the Minister of Health and Member of' the Rhodesia Front and there should be no Parliament of Zimbabwe and I feel I have debate on that statement. The debate at the a right to debate on any national issue that present moment is to try and clarify the may arise. -— [AN HON. MEMBER: If statement by "the Minister of Information the Minister has not replied.] and Tourism. Would the hon. member please continue. MR. SPEAKER: I regret that, but there is the complication That once the Minister MR. SHAVA: I can only say that hon. replies it closes the debate, it therefore members opposite and Peter Walls in fact limits the opportunity of other members show a great oneness, in that they are who might want to contribute to do so. But avowed to stop or restrict any positive if it is the desire of this House that the efforts towards socialism. This has been by Minister replies, then I cannot stop him. Peter Walls himself in a statement from Natal, and I regret if I contravene your THE MINISTER OF HEALTH: I seek ruling. It has been repeated this afternoon. your guidance, Mr. Speaker. If I have to forego my privilege to speak at this However, the main reason we would like moment, does that imply that other speakers this debate is to ask the Minister a few can carry on, and then eventually I may questions because this General Peter Walls avail myself of the opportunity offered? has made such astounding statements which MR. SPEAKER: Speakers who are not denigrate Government. Can we get the Ministers, yes, but as soon as the Minister assurance that administrative steps or legal speaks the debate is closed. steps also are going to be taken by this Government against General Walls? Thank THE MINISTER OF HEALTH: I will

you, Mr. Speaker. bide my time, Mr. Speaker. — [AN HON. MEMBER: There are some very oppressive MR. SPEAKER: Is there any further ánd suppressive Standing Orders.] debate? THE DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRI¬ THE MINISTER OF HEALTH rose CULTURE: Mr. Speaker . ..

MR. SPEAKER: Does the Minister MR. SPEAKER: The same applies to realise that just as soon as he has spoken you, Deputy Minister. — [AN HON. it will end the debate? After the Minister MEMBER: That is one of the privileges has spoken, no-one else can speak, in terms of being a Minister.] — [AN HON. MEM¬ of the Standing Orders. BER: Where is the Minister of Defence?] 77 Motion— 19th August, 1980. Adjournment of the House. 78

MR. CHIKOWORE: Much as we would therefore the man responsible for Peter have liked to view our utter disgust at the Walls, or rather raise the point that whatever utterances of Peter -Walls, Mr. Speaker, steps this Government might intend to take, with regard to subversive tendencies Government will have the full backing of apparent in his speeches, either to the the back-benchers and will make sure that Prime Minister of Britain, Mrs. Margaret the Government has our party support. Thatcher, or even in his replies from remote MR. LANDAU: On a control — in other words from wherever point of order, Mr. Speaker, it would he is, we find ourselves very much limited appear to me that there is no because we do not seem to take Peter Walls quorom. in isolation from perhaps the overall view MR. .SPEAKER: There is a quorum . . . that taken — might be by members of this [AN HON. MEMBER: It was deliberate. community either black or white. Did you see them walk out] — ... Would the hon. member please continue. I am not trying to suggest that there might not have been black people involved MR. CHIKOWORE: Thank you, Mr. in the conspiracy through which the Opera¬ Speaker, may I perhaps, for the benefit of tion was to be initiated. There could have hon. members opposite, state that we have 'been black people as well, but what is signi¬ been at least greatly relieved by the assur¬ ficant is the fact that Peter Walls chose this ance of the hon. members opposite that they particular time to air the views that he aired have no axe. to grind in the conspiracies of in February of this year. What is limiting Peter Walls, and therefore I appeal to them us, Mr. Speaker, is that fact that we tend that if there should be any constitution of to be bound by Standing Rules, especially any committee of investigation, they be in connection with the speech that has been ready to come forward and participate. If made by the hon. member, Mr. Ian Smith we were to give Government our support this afternoon. I think it would be illogical for whatever action Government mighcdeem to debate on Peter Walls on one side and necessary for Peter Walls, they should come to leave certain utterances that have been forward and be ready to be with ,us to make atributed this afternoon. But however, sure that of course,

[The Deputy Minister of Agriculture] that it had been discussed to-day and I now gather there has probably not been enough afternoon. This was particularly relevant to liaison between members of Government on the issue raised by the Minister and to this this matter. It is not the problem of the particular subject which members of this Speaker but the problem of members of the side of the House are concerned about. And government. I cannot appreciate why this particular Standing Order would want to exclude a MR. DIVARIS: I have listened to very relevant part of this issue to be debated what the hon. members opposite have said in line with the main issue. and they were referring to General Walls. I understand from the Press that General MR. SPEAKER: I would request hon. members to acquaint themselves very very Walls has made a statement either to-day carefully with the Standing Order. When or yesterday in which he denies the report which was the statement was made by the Minister published last week and to which the Minister has made mention. I would yesterday, all hon. members could have in fact asked the Minister questions. But per¬ just like to say this, that when I heard the haps inadvertently, the Minister said hon. Minister say last week that he was going to members of the other parties could in fact investigate this matter, I thought that was an excellent reply to the debate. But, in fact, it was not idèa, and I would say this that General Walls is now back in the country, a debate, it was a statement that the Min¬ ister made. And when the hon. member Mr. he is back at home and surely the Minister must now Ian Smith spoke to-day, he spoke on a non- carry on, call up General Walls, have a discussion with him and see existing motion but had to explain himself exactly what is to take on a personal matter, and in fact that matter place; I would welcome that sort of move from the Minister, and I could not be debated. These are the Standing would welcome also General Walls coming Rules which guide us. It is very unfortunate and but that is the case. meeting the Minister and perhaps some of his colleagues and me too, if they wish MR. CHIKOWORE: On a point of to ask me, and I shall be very happy to order .. . participate in any investigation which could be made. I think that is the best way to MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member has clear the whole matter up. ■— [MR. already spoken before and cannot speak MAKONI: General Walls is a liar.] again.

MR. CHIKOWORE: It is on a point of THE MINISTER OF HEALTH: We have order. just witnessed this afternoon an orchestrated walkout by members of the RF who refuse MR. SPEAKER: On a point of order? to live with the Government of Zimbabwe, the MR. CHIKOWORE: I take it that when peoples Government. —[MR. DIVARIS: I am here.] — [AN HON. (MEMBER: You a statement is made, it is not to be debated are not a member of the RF.] — The hon. on, so is the statement of the Minister and member, Dr. Divaris, has always been con¬ that of the hon. member Mr, Ian Smith — sistent and we thank him for at least want¬ what is the position when a debate is called ing to live with the people of Zimbabwe. upon? — [MR. DIVARIS: You raise a I have with me here a copy of the exclusive private members motion.] panorama interview with General Walls MR. SPEAKER: Hon. members are quite on the 10th August, 1980. This appeared free to raise a private member's motion and on British television. I have a copy for get his matter debated, but the hon. mem¬ Mr. Speaker if he is interested. I will quote ber, the Chief Wip of the opposition felt the relevant portions, Mr. Speaker, in case 81 Motion— 19th August, 1980. Adjournment of the House. 82

I bore you by reading right through the saying that Mugabe's overwhelming victory document. was the result of intimidation?" "Yes," he answered, "that is exactly it. That is the ï quote — this is a question — Does way these things work. I am not criticizing General Walls really think the country is Mr. Mugabe particularly for it. I think stable enough to allow him to quit? ■that every African leader practises intimida¬ General Walls: "I don't think the country tion through his party, through his followers is going to become any more stable until and he was a damn sight better than any¬ we have gone through the rapids. This one else'is, that is what it amounts to — might be some time in March or June next tougher, tougher". year, and then it will either go up or it will go down." Question: "What are the Then there is a question on page 3; it rapids going to be like?" Answer: "The goes: "It is true that during the elections, rapids are going to be fairly tough going." while they were still going on and the That is Peter Walls answering. You turn result had not yet been officially announced, to page 2 and he gives an example: "For you sent a message to the British Govern¬ example, I don't .want to stay under the ment, to Mrs. Thatcher, asking her to present political conditions. President a'nnul the result of the election, to declare Banana gave a sermon the other day which it null and void?" Answer: "I don't know was totally political, and I cannot respect how you know about that, but it is quite the Commander-in-Chief, the President, correct, Yes. Mrs. Thatcher had seen me »— who does not keep himself above politics" as I am sure she saw everybody else when — he cannot respect the President. we were in London — and she had said to me: "You have direct access to me at Question — it starts off with a preamble: any time you like if you think it is im¬ "Walls was Army Commander from the start portant enough" so I used that right she had of the war in 1972. Four years later he given me to say what I thought was wrong took over Combined Operations as the top with the election, and suggested that she military man :in the country, ordering his should annul the result of the election". men on cross border raids into Zambia and "What did she say?" the questioner went Mozambique with increasing frequency in on. Answer: "Well, it was quite a long an effort to destroy the guerrillas in sanctu¬ signal and I don't think we can cover it aries, but more guerrillas General Walls' now and I think it is not the time to men killed, the more the nationalists re¬ publicize the details but I never got an cruited, until all the old Rhodesia became official reply. Tony Duff — Sir Anthony a battleground in which the whites were Duff — the Deputy Governor gave me fighting for survival, but Walls and the what he said was a reply, that used phrases Whites could not hold on indefinitely that he himself had used during the past Reluctantly they agreed to free elections week, so as I said to him: "It is either only to see Robert Mugabe's win and the your reply drafted for her, or in fact there Patriotic Front sweep to victory at the is no reply from her" and he said he would polls." Answer from Peter Walls: "During later give me a summary of it". the last few days before the election, and definitely after the first day of the election, Question: "So having offered you a direct I realized the intimidation which we had all channel, the Prime Minister didn't actually been worried about, which we had com¬ respond when you sent her that telegram?" plained about repeatedly to Lord Soames Answer: "No, I won't forgive her for was having a tremendous effect and ZANU that" — that is Peter Walls saying this ■— (PF) were sweeping the country like a veld "I would like at least to have had the fire. We realized that as the election was courtesy of a reply". The document is quite taking place." Question: "Are you really lengthy; there are other sections I could have 83 Motion— 19th August, 1980. Adjournment of the House. 84

IThe Minister of Health] hear.] — In fact, he had not by the time he chose to retire, forgotten about the idea quoted, relevant to what has gone on in the of a coup — for soon after the elections Press. I quoted these areas to try and put there was a great deal of promotion of what I am going to be saying into proper European soldiers; from sergeant to lieu¬ perspective. This Peter Walls statement has tenant; from captain right up to major. This rocked the nation right to the foundations just because ZANU (PF) had won the elec¬ of man's faith in man. Some of us were tions and integration of the army would shocked by the timing of his remarks, but take place, and white officers would still be not really surprised by the contents. His on top to control events. This assertion can confession that he had sought to have the be proved, Mr. Speaker, through an exami¬ elections declared null and void before the nation of army pay records. They are there results were declared, tends to a strong for anybody's examination. reluctancgjan his part to accept the new era- in Zimbabwe. It should also be considered, Mr. Speaker, that his remarks to British television could His claim that the election had been in¬ have been designed to perpetuate as a refine¬ validated by widespread intimidation by ment the maxim of "Divide and rule" and ZANTJ (PF) has been sufficiently shown to thus help destabilise the country, particu¬ be false and misleading and appears to have larly at a time of the so-called crisis of been used as a ploy by him to prevent a expectation facing independent Government change against which 'he had for so long of Zimbabwe. fought. After all, the Smith regime was one to which he had been totally committed for Such a policy seems conceivable, coming from a man who authorized murderous many years. — [MR. MAKONI: He is still committed to it even though it does not raids into neighbouring states during the exist.] Lancaster House talks in London.

Talking of intimidation, Peter Walls "for¬ Fortunately, Peter Walls does not speak for all white gets that before the elections and on his Zimbabweans, many of whom have orders, the Rhodesian Army went out on accepted the changed situation.- Peter manoeuvres to issue handbills at gunpoint Walls's provocative and reckless remarks to people in the so called TTLs to vote for may endanger the very community whose Muzorewa. interests he was professing to serve.

He is a bitter and For example, a Coloured unit under the deeply frustrated man command of Col. Bert Sutherland, who has — who is too old to change. since skipped the border after the elections, When the Prime Minister comrade did this exercise. There were 11 Coloured Mugabe formed a coalition government in soldiers in this particular unit who are still April, 1980, it was clearly stated and there to tell the story to-day. appeared accepted that a new era had been Peter Walls' admission that he had born and imbued with a spirit of reconcilia¬ tion and reconstruction. This signified an serious considered a military coup against end to discrimination in all its the in-coming Government indicates that he social, eco¬ nomic and had decided not to proceed with that plan political forms; a concern for equity of opportunity and equity in all the solely on the grounds of expediency and citizens of Zimbabwe. practicality at the time, and that he had been disloyal to the Prime Minister, comrade This spirit of forgiveness and non- Mugabe, personally and to the new Govern¬ sectarian friendship presupposed that those ment to an extent that might be considered who hacTbcen the instrument of an exploi¬ treasonable. — [HON. MEMBERS: Hear, tative system and power accepted the new 85 Committee of Supply— 19th August, 1980. Adjustment of the House. 86 situation and would be loyal to the new here to discuss General Walls and nobody Government. else. Surely we should keep to that point.]

— Mr, Speaker, Sir, I think also that Peter Compare this felony with what Peter Walls has said. That is where the Walls' motivation may be to recount the comparison comes in. What a position he had as a spokesman for the transparent diversion and rabble whites. He could apparently have been upset rousing by members opposite who by the hostility that the white right wing suddenly want to transform themselves into the had shown him for selling out and joining custodians of the people's justice. the comrade Mugabe administration. The Why was there such palpable silence from whole kind of thing is just to re-introduce hon. members across after the peter Walls' himself into the white community. In so statement? Why chase up the NhongO affair doing, Mr. Speaker, Peter Walls is rein¬ to this ridiculous end, and with what gain forcing all the anti-ZANU Forces and, in view? Can this attitude not be read side naturally, this is particularly damaging to by side with the Peter Walls' exercise which the Prime Minister, comrade Mugabe. seeks to destabilise our state? What activity It is incredibly hypocritical if one remem¬ is more of a liability to the state of Zim¬ bers what Rhodesia did with their propa¬ babwe — that of the Peter Wallses or or ganda and the Selous Scouts. Peter Walls that of commander Rex Nhongo? has been dishonest to work in the Govern¬ What is treason, Mr, Speaker? Which ment when he actually wanted to prevent statements or activities can be construed as us from coming into office. treasonable? What statements or activities Reconciliation is fine, but from now on are treasonable. Who in history has ever it must be on ZANU (PF's) conditions, not been pensioned for treason. the whites'. Peter Walls and the whites must MR. LANDAU: On a point of order. It accept that their past record was appalling. has been drawn to my attention that there But, it is the gang hypocrisy of the whole is no quorum. — [MR. CHIDYAUSIKU: that beats one, Mr. Speaker. They use Operation Quartz.] — [HON. MEMBERS: diversionary tactics which will persuade the Inaudible interjections.] population at large to take its sights off the And notice Peter Wallses littered all over Zimbabwe. having been taken that there were present fewer than mem¬ For example, an hon. member of this House twenty-fiie bers, the bells were rung for four minutes had the guts to stand up, after a reply on and a the Commander Rex Nhongo affair, and quorum being still not present, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without say "There is a great deal of unhappiness Question put at Twenty-two Minutes to and uncertainty among people of all races Seven o'clock and all colours in the country at the p.m. pursuant to the provi¬ behaviour of certain senior members of the sions of Standing Order No. 26. Government". Note.—The following members were

This was a comment about commander present when the House adjoruned: who had, according to Rhodesian law, Mr. Chidyausiku, Mr. Chikowore, Mr. allegedly committed a felony under some Chitofu, Mrs. Chivaura, Mr. Hundah, the sub-subsection of the miscellaneous offences Hon. K. M. Kangai, Mr. Kaparadza, Mr. Act. —- [MR. DIVARIS: On a point of order. Landau, Mrs. Lesabe, Mr. C. W. Makoni, We are supposed to 'be discussing Gen¬ Mr. S. H. S. Makoni, Mr. Masangò, Mr. eral Walls. Is it right that we should go Mudukuti, Mr. Mumbengegwi, Mr. Mvenge, right round the world discussing various Miss Ngwenya, Mr. Nyazika, Dr. Pswarayi, people? F am not saying whether the Min¬ Mr. Rambanepasi, Dr. the Hón. N. Shamu- ister speaking now is right in his surmise or yarira, Mr. Shava, Miss Tavarwisa, Dr. the not. I am just saying that this House is Hon. H. M. S. Ushewokunze, Mr. Ziyenge.

MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY

Andersen, J. C., S.C. — — Mount Pleasant Mudzingwa, A. N. Mashonaland West

Bassoppo-Moyo, J. P. — Victoria Mugabe, Hon. R. G. —. __ Mashonaland East

Butler, D. — — —— Eastern Mukarati, T. M. G. Mashonaland West

Cartwright, R. —— — Hatfield Mumbengegwi, S. S. Midlands

Chambati, A. M. — — — Mashonaland West Mundawarara, Dr. S. C. Mashonaland East

Chidyausiku, G. Q, — Mashonaland East Munyaradzi, Dr. O. M. — Victoria

Chikowore, E. C. — Mashonaland West Murambiwa, P. G. — Mashonaland East Victoria Chinamano, Mrs. R. L. — Matabeleland North Mutumbuka, Hon. D. B. Manicaland ■ Midlands Chitepo, Mrs. V, F. — Muzenda, Hon. S. V. Mashonaland East Chitofu, E. —— _ Manicaiand Muzorewa, Bishop A. T.

Chivaura, Mrs. M. Mashonaland West Mvenge, M. J. — — — Mashonaland East

Cronjé, Hon. R, Central Ndangana, W. — Manicaland

Manicaland —, _ Matabeleland South Dhube, Bishop J. T. N. — Ndlovu, Dr. C. D.

Divans, D., I.C.D., O.L.M. Kopje Ndlovu, E. — — Matabeleland South Matabeleland Dube, M. N. — Mashonaland East Ngwenya, D. North Elsworth, H. S. Midlands Ngwenya, Miss J. L. Matabeleland North Gaunt, Wing Commander Nhiwatiwa, Dr. N. P. Manicaland R. J. Highlands Nhongo, Hpn. Mrs. T. R. Mashonaland Central Matabeleland South Goddard, D. G. ... _... Lundi Njini, P. — __ ——

— Matabeleland North Holland, A. S., O.L.M. — Mazoe/Mtoko Nkomo, J. L. —

— Midlands Hove, Hon. R. C. — Midlands Nkomo, Hon. J. M.

: —— Matabeleland South Hundah, J. N. G. _ _ Mashonaland East Nkomo, S. J. N. Matabeleland North Irvine, Hon. W. M., G.L.M. Ntuta, J. E. G. — — I.C.D. Marlborough Nyagumbo, Hon. T, M. Manicaland

— Mashonaland East Rabasa, A. ——— — Mashonaland East Nyazika, M. H. —

— Mashonaland East Kadungure, Hon. E. R. — Midlands Pswarayi, Dr. E. M. — Mashonaland East Kangai, Hon. K. M. — Manicaland Rambanepasi, S. —

Mashonaland — — Mashonaland Central Kaparadza, J. N. — — — Central Rutanhire, G.

— Manicaland Kona, W. H. — __ Midlands Sanyangare, C. E. C. — Landau, J. A., M.L.M. Avondale Sekeramayi, Hon. Dr. S. T. Mashonaland Central N, Mashonaland West Lesabe, Mrs. T. V. — — Matabeleland North Shamuyarira, Hon. Dr.

— Manicaland Mahachi, M. E. _ — Manicaland Shava, F. M. M. — —

— — Bulawayo Makoni, C. W. — — — Manicaland Shields, P. F. Central

— Mashonaland East Makoni, S. H. S. —— Midlands Shirihuru, E. F.

Malunga, S. D. Matabeleland North Silundika, Hon. T. G. — Matabeleland South Matabeleland Mangena, D. —— — — North Smith, Hon. D. C., G.L.M.,

Mashonaland I.C.D. _ _ — Borrowdalc Mangwende, Dr. W. M. — East

Manyika, R. D. — — — Mashonaland West Smith, Hon. I. D.,

East _ Southern Marere, R. M. —u —— Mashonaland G.C.L.M., I.D.

Masango, F. J. Mashonaland Central Stuttaford, W. E. — — Bulawayo South

Midlands —— Victoria Mativenga, E. S. —— Taderera, T. A.

Victoria — — Makoni Mavhaire, D. C. — Tapson, N. A.

Victoria Tavarwisa, Miss — — Victoria Mawema, N. T. — — S.

— — Mashonaland Central Mazorodze, Dr. S. C. — Victoria Tekere, Hon. E. Z.

Matabeleland South — — — — Victoria Mguni, B. M. T. — — Urimbo, M. Ushewokunze, Hon. Micklem, E. M., O.L.M. — Northern

Dr. H. S. M. — Matabeleland North Mnangagwa, Hon. E. D. — Midlands Mashonaland van der Mombeshora, Dr. S. T. — West Byl, Hon. Moseley, A., O.L.M., M.M. Western P. K F. V., G.L.M., I.D. Gatooma /Hartley

Matabeleland North Walker, W. D. _ — — Bulawayo North Moyo, V. H. — — —

Midlands Ziyenge, R. G. — — — Mashonaland East Msipa, C. G. ——

— Victoria Muchachl, Hon. C. —, — .Midlands Zvobgo, Hon. E. J. M.

Victoria — — Midlands Mudukuti, G. T. M. — Zvobgo, Mrs. J. T. ^ò&^rcP j> ^ thcT ^ í tz^f ~2-<~ sSí cT- iMA4^*zrt<*^

/ » k-ff-í-^c^S "~y

C ^ •^WZ-í^r'

CORRECTIONS FOR BOUND VOLUME

Corrections which Members desire to suggest in the reports of their speeches for the bound volumes should be clearly marked in this Hansard, and the copy containing the corrections must be received by the Hansard Editor within seven days of the date of this report.

Members are reminded that suggested corrections must be confined to the correction of grammatical mistakes and errors in the reports of their own speeches.