MacDonald vs. McGinniss Trial Transcript i.
UNITED STATES DIRSTRICT COURT
CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
4 HONORABLE WILLIAM J. REA, JUDGE PRESIDINC
5
G
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8 DR. JEFFREY R- MAC DONALD,
9 Plaintiff
10 vs. No. CV 84-6170-WJR
11 JOE-MC GINNISS,
12 Defendant.
13
v\ 14 m .\
^ REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 16-. Los Angeles, California 17 Thursday, July 30, 1987 18
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20
21 Sherrill Boutte, CSR Official Court Reporter 22 402 United States Courthouse v.. 312 North Spring Street 23 Los Angeles, California 90012 (213) 613-1381 24
25 INDEX I
2
3
4 WITNESSES
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6 PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS: , DIRECT' CROSS REDIRECT RE-CROSS : 7 MAC DONALD, JEFFREY' R.' "•> 4
8 I 9 10 ... >*-• 11
12
13 EXHIBITS. >; 14 B* (FOR*-- 15 EXHIBIT '' ID ENTIFI CAT I ON >\r"TEV/I~DENCE 16 159 5 17 474 58 5 8 .-M; IS 475 58 59 19 476 59 59 20
21
22 REPORTED BY:
23 Sherrill Boutte Pages 3 56 3*., Sft' 24 Kathleen Haaland 57 87
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A .• v*e_ \v , 1 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, JULY 30, 1987; 10:00 AM to 2 r THE CLERK: Civil 84-6170-WJR, a f i 4 Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald vs. Joe McGinniss. Counsel, please state your appearances. 5
6 MR. BOSTWICK: Good morning, your Honor.
7 Gary Bostwick and Jo-Ann Horn on behalf of the plaintiff. i Dr. Jeffrey R. MacDonald. 8
9 MR. KORNSTEIN: Good morning, your Honor. Daniel Kornstein and Mark Piatt on behalf of the defendant, 10 Joe McGinniss. 11 THE COURT: All right. We want Dr. MacDonald 12 back on the witness stand. 13 MR. KORNSTEIN: I have a few more questions for E* 14 him. 15 THE COURT: All right. Doctor, resume the 16 witness stand, please. E 17 IS JEFFREY R. MAC DONALD - PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS PREVIOUSLY SWORN 1 19 20 THE CLERK: Would you please state your name
21 again for the record. THE WITNESS: My name is Jeffrey R. MacDonald- 22 E THE COURT: You may proceed. 23
24 /////
25 ///// CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
2 BY MR.- KORNSTEIN: a Q When we recessed yesterday, we were going through a 4 series of letters between yourself and Mr. McGinniss about 5 the extent of artistic freedom and independence that 6 Mr. McGinniss had. At the end of the day, there was one 7 document I was about to ask you about. Do you remember a 8 letter from yourself to Mr. McGinniss dated February 9th, 1983, that covered among other things your desire to see
10 a copy of the book? 11 A I don't recall specifically. We talked about that. 12 Q "Would it refresh your recollection if I showed you a 13 copy? 14 A Yes, it would. to 15 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I approach? 16 THE COURT; You may. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see this. 18 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 19 Q And is it a copy of a letter that you wrote in your 20 own handwriting? 21 A Yes, it is. Q And you signed it? 22 A I did. 23 24 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, we would move that 25 into evidence as the next exhibit, I believe 159 would be I 1 the number.
2 : THE CLERK: Correct. ? i 3 THE COURT: All right.
4 MR. BOSTWICK: Your 'Honor, I haven't heard that
5 it was sent to Mr- McGinniss, but I believe that that would
6 probably be elicited upon the next question or another,
7 and based upon that we have no objection.
8 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
9 Q Did you send it?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 THE COURT: All right. It will be received in
12 evidence as 1-5-9-
13 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may we put Page 3
14 from that exhibit on the screen?
15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
17 Q Once again, the underlining is not your handwriting.
18 That was added by someone else afterwards; isn't that
19 correct?
20 A . Yes.
21 Q Would you read the underlined portion on the screen?
22 A I want to see where it stops. I can read this easier
23 here.
24 Q All right. It begins on the —
25 A I see it. It stops at "reasons"? 1 Q Yes.
2 A 2nd it begins at "It wa-s one thing"? 3 Q Yes. 4 A "It was one thing not to have control over the book,
5 slash, /contents/, slash,/you. I granted you that and I
6 have lived with it, .except I asked you to treat Sheree
7 well and Jay well for very different reasons."
8 Q Was it your understanding when you wrote those words
9 that you did not have control over the book?
10 A I did not have control over the words that he wrote, E U yes. I 12 Q Was it your understanding that you had no control 13 over the contents of the book?
14 A With the understanding that it was fair and accurate.
15 Q Wasn't it your understanding at that time -that you 16 had no control over him, Mr. McGinniss, as you wrote there?
17 A With the understanding that it was a nonfiction book 18 and fair and accurate.
19 Q Now, recall yesterday we talked about a letter from
20 Mr. McGinniss to you dated May 4th, 1982, in which he was
21 responding to your coiranent about F. Lee Bailey's associate 22 being aghast at your lack of artistic control? 23 A Yes, I remember that. 24 Q And do you remember Mr. McGinniss' explanation and 25 response to you about how he had complete freedom and
I 7 M i independence, and how he would never have started the r 2 project with you without that independence and access? 3 Do yot remember that? i 4 A I remember reading that segment, yes. 5 Q And do you also remember a letter Mr. McGinniss sent
! 6 you on August 6th, 1982, which we talked about yesterday
7 and is in evidence as Exhibit 36-K where he says to you to
8 get across to whoever you're talking to that it is not an
9 authorized version, and that he has been operating with
10 complete freedom and independence. Remember those?
11 A Yes, I do. i 12 Q Now, in your letter of August 22nd to Mr. McGinniss, 13 which we covered at the beginning of this series of i© 14 questions yesterday, which was right after or within a few 15 weeks of the August 6th letter that Mr. McGinniss writes
16 to you, and a few months after the May 4th letter; you i 17 didn't repudiate anything that he had said in those letters 18 about the amount of independence and freedom that he had
19 in writing the book; did you?
20 A I'm not sure the letter was in reference — direct
21 reference to that. i 22 Q Whether it was in reference to it or not, you didn't 23 use the August 22nd letter as an occasion to repudiate
24 anything that Mr. McGinniss had said about those subjects.
25 A I'm not sure. I wasn't answering that subject in that I letter, I don't believe. 1 Q Well, does that mean the answer is no, you didn't 2 discuss that subject in the letter? 3 A I'd have to see the letter again to be sure exactly of 4 every word in the letter, but my impression is that letter 5 was responding to something else. 6 Q Well, do you remember this line from the letter, which 7 is Exhibit 116: "I had made myself a promise not to 8 9 question you on the book"? 10 A Yes, I do remember that. 11 Q In any letter during the 4-year period that you and Mr. McGinniss were corresponding, isn't it a fact that U never once did Mr. McGinniss tell you in so many words that 13 he was going to write a book that portrayed you as 14 I* innocent? 15 A Well, I'm not sure of your characterization "in so 16 many words." 17 Q Did the words say in any letter, "I'm going to write IS a book, that portrays you as innocent"? 19 20 A Those exact words? 21 Q Yes. 22 A No. I 23 Q Now, isn't it also true that none of your letters i 24 over that period of time to Mr. McGinniss ever said, "Joe, 25 you're supposed to show me as innocent in this book"?
I I
1 A Well, I didn't think that had to be spoken at that 2 t ime.- 3 MR. KORNSTEIN: Move to strike. 4 THE COURT: The answer is stricken.
5 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 6 Q Is the answer yes or no? 7 A The .question being, were those exact words in any 8 letter of mine to Joe? 9 Q Yes.
10 A I used many phrases that I felt were indicative of 11 how I felt the book would come out. 12 Q_ Did you ever — Well, withdrawn. 13 Isn't it true that you never used the phrase even 14 approximating saying, "The book you're going to write, Joe, 15 will portray me as innocent"? 16 MR. B0.STV7ICK: I object to the question as 17 being vague and ambiguous. 18 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer. 19 THE WITNESS: I used phrases and expressions 20 in my letters that to me meant that I was discussing that
21 Joe was writing a favorable book to me. 22 Q Did you ever once, in any of your letters — and there 23 are many of them — use the phrase "innocent" or "innocence" 24 in connection with telling Mr. McGinniss how the book should 25 come out about you? 10 ! 1 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, I'm going to object 2 to the question and ask the Court to instruct the jury i 3 that Mr.'Kornstein's remarks about how many letters there 4 were is not evidence.
5 THE COURT; You mean, "And there were many"? 6 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes', sir. 7 THE COURT: All right. That will be stricken. g Do you have the question now in mind? 9 THE WITNESS: I think so. If I heard the 10 question correctly, I. did use the words in a letter "guilt 11 or innocence." And I believe your question encompassed 12 "the word "innocence." So my answer to your question would
13 be Yesi if X understood you. m 14 Q But in that letter, did you say that you were telling 15 Mr. McGinniss to write a book portraying you as innocent? 16 A You mean was I making a declarative statement to Joe? 17 Q Or an imperative one. 18 A I'd have to see the letter again, but I believe that 19 I said I hope, or I felt, that I had no cause for — I 20 forgot the exact expression, but it was — to me, it meant 21 you are portraying me favorably.
22 Q I want to make sure I understand this. You're saying 23 you wrote a letter that you hoped, or felt, that you had 24 no cause for let's say anxiety or alarm — 25 A Right, 12
A I don't think that's true.
2 Q ean you tell me one example where there was one other t 3 party besides yourself and Mr. McGinniss where a statement 4 from Mr. McGinniss was made that he was going to portray 5 you as innocent in the book? 6 A I was sitting with my secretary, Barbara Gallagher, 7 when we had the phone call about my engagement party. 8 Q Did she listen in on the conversation? 9 A No. 10 Q So she didn't hear what Mr. McGinniss said? 11 A No. She heard my end of the conversation. 12 Q Okay. So no one else, except yourself, heard such 13 words by Mr. McGinniss; is that correct? to 14 A No, I don't believe so. 15 Q Who else heard them? 16 A I believe, if my memory is accurate, that Sheree 17 Sizelove heard him say that. 18 Q On what occasion? 19 A If my memory is accurate,they were comments to that 20 effect while we were having dinner or shortly thereafter, 21 in the fall of 1980. 22 Q You didn't testify about this conversation on direct 23 examination; did you? 24 A I believe I did. 25 Q You did. 13
I 1 A This is a conversation that began at dinner and went
2 on, and — including a drive up to the Beverly Wilshire r i 3 Hotel', whatever hotel Joe was staying at.
4 Q Now, does Sheree Sizelove still live in California?
5 A Yes, to my knowledge.
6 Q Were there any .other conversations to which there was
7 a witness where you say Mr. McGinniss said he would portray
8 you as innocent?
9 A I would say that several of the conversations at trial
10 that I testified to, I would say some of those must have
H had other people present. I can't recall specifically.
12 Q But those conversations concerned, did they not,
j3 simply either his support for you during the trial or to 14 reaction to what was happening during the trial, either
15 the judge's rulings or the evidence?
16 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object to the
17 question as being compound, vague and ambiguous.
18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
20 Q In none of those conversations that you just referred
21 to was your portrayal in the book brought up by
22 Mr. McGinniss; was it?
23 A Well, the portrayal of the facts and the evidence
24 certainly was. 25 Q But he did not say in any of those conversations that 14
1 he was going to portray you as innocent.
2 A | don't — I don't believe in those exact words you're a using. 4 Q Okay. So that, except for the conversation with 5 Sheree Sizelove, the only two witnesses to these 6 conversations that we're talking about where he said about 7 portraying you as innocent, would be yourself and
8 Mr- HcGinniss; isn't that correct?
9 A Unless there was a person at one of the visits at
10 Terminal Island sitting there at the same time. 11 Q Can you think of who else overheard such a 12 conversation?
13 A Who possibly could have overheard such a conversation? 1* 14 Q_ Not possibly, who did. 15 A I can tell you who visited, or some of the people who
16 visited while Joe and I were having these conversations. 17 Q I don't want that. I just want to know who a possible 18 witness would be to a conversation that you say occurred.
19 A My mother. I believe my brother — no, I'm not sure.
20 "Not my brother. Barbara Gallagher; Steve Shea; Sheila Sanning (phonetic); Joan Moster (phonetic); Ginger Grezinsky 21
22 (phonetic). I believe Shelly Stevens, I'm not sure. I think -- I think those people were there at various times 23
24 when Joe and I had conversations about the case. Q When your mother was testifying, she didn't testify 25 15
1 about anything along the lines that Mr. McGinniss said to 2 you he was going to portray you as innocent; did she? i 1 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object to the •* question as being not relevant.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 BY MR. K.ORN STEIN: 7 Q As you sit here today, can you think of any one of 8 those people who definitely overheard a statement by Joe 9 McGinniss where he said he was going to portray you as 10 innocent in the book? 11 A Who I know definitely heard those words? 12 Q Yes. 13 A No. B* 14 Q So if there are no such witnesses, it's just your 15 word against Mr. McGinniss' about that; isn't it? 16 MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question as 1^ argumentative. IS THE COURT: Sustained. 19 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
20 Q DO yOU recall writing a letter to, or receiving a 21 letter from Mr. McGinniss dated February 11th, 1983, 22 requesting permission to speak to Cleve Backster and asking 23 you for authorization?
24 A Yes, I do. 25 Q Would you turn to Exhibit 19.
I 16 1 THE CLERK: 19 before the witness.
2 r THE WITNESS: Thank you. i 3 BY MR. KORNSTEXN: A Q Is that a copy of the letter you sent with additional 5 handwri — or you received with additional handwriting 6 by yourself? 7 A The top half is what I received. 8 Q And is the bottom half additional writing that you.
9 put on it? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And the second page is a form, your signature? 12 A That's correct. 13 Q And you received that around February 11th — a little
* 14 after February 11th, 1983? 15 A Yes, that's true. 16 Q And is that the request for authorization we were 17 talking about yesterday? 18 A Yes, it is. I 19 MR. KORNSTEIH: Your Honor, we would move that 20 into evidence. 1 21 THE COURT: Any objections? 22 MR. BOSTWICK: We have no objection, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: .All right. Exhibit 19 will be 24 received in evidence. 25 MR. BOSTWICK: I believe it's already in, your I• 17
i Honor. • i : THE CLERK: It is. f a THE COURT: Is it? 4 THE CLERK: It is. 5 THE COURT: It's already in. 6 MR. KORNSTEIN: Oh. 7 Q You never did sign the authorization that's attached 8 as Page 2; did you? 9 A No, I did not. 10 Q Would you turn to Page 599 of Exhibit 402, the book, 11 please. 12 THE CLERK: What was the page please? 13 MR. KORNSTEIN: 599. 14 to THE CLERK: 402 before the witness. 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 599? 16 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 17 Q Yes. It doesn't have a number on it, but it's right 18 next to 598 — 19 A Yes. 20 Q — Chapter 2. 21 Would you read the first three paragraphs to yourself? 22 A (Complies.) 23 Yes, I read them. 24 Q Do you recall elsewhere in the book the Silverman 25 psychiatric report as reprinted, and it refers to you as a 18
psychopath. Do you remember that reference? 1 A Silverman is not a psychiatrist.
2 0 kether we can it Silver or Brussels, ifs in the V 3 Q report. It's mentioned in that report, isn't it, 4 A The report mentions it. 5 6 Q Ves. X Dr. Silverman is not a psychiatrist. He can't make 7 8 psychiatric diagnoses. MR. KORNSTEIN: Move to strike. 9 THE COURT: I don't know what the question was. 10 11 Would you go back and read the last question. 12 MR. KORNSTEIN: Well, I'll withdraw it and 13 move on. It will be easier, your Honor. 14 Q The report signed by Dr. Silverman mentions that term; * 15 does it not? 16 A Yes, it does. 17 Q Now, the three paragraphs on Page 599, do they 18 correspond with your understanding of the definition of a
19 psychopath? 20 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor. It's not 21 relevant and calls for a speculation on the part of this 22 witness about something written in another book. 23 THE COURT: All right. I've been reading here. 24 Read that back for me. 25 (Record read.) 1 19
1 THE COURT: And you're now asking him as a 2 medicgl doctor? His opinion, is that what you're asking? i 3 " MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes. And his experience as a 4 medical doctor and other reading he may have done. 5 THE COURT: Well, first of all, I think you 6 ought to find'out if he has such an opinion, before you 7 ask him for it. 8 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 9 Q Do you have an opinion about the definition of 10 psychopath? 11 A Do I have an opinion? No. 12 Q Have you ever done any reading in literature about 13 psychopaths or sociopaths? e* 14 MR. B0STWICK-. Objection. Irrelevant. 15 THE COURT: Overruled. Ifi THE WITNESS: Have I ever done any reading? 17 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 1s Q Uh-huh. 19 A I'm sure I have. 20 Q - Have you read the book "The Mask of Sanity" by Hervey
21 Cleckley? 22 A No. 23 Q In your reading about psychopaths, have you come across 24 definitions? 25 A Of — 20
1 Q Of that term.
2 A 1'm sure in medical school I read a definition at one 3 time. 4 Q Do you remember what that definition was? 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. Do you remember saying in one of the tapes you 7 sent to Mr. McGinniss, Exhibit 43 3, the following: I could
8 understand taking some amphetamine. After all, they weren't
9 so bad, just to stay up a little bit and party.
10 Do you recall saying that? II A Yeah, I believe I said that.
12 Q Was it true at the time that you said it? 13 MR. BQSTWICK: Object to the question as being
* 14 vague and ambiguous, particularly taken out of context as
15 it is. He's got the transcript and the tape, your Honor.
16 I think it would be better to show the witness. 17 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, in fact, I think 18 we can do better than that. Could we play that portion of
19 the tape?
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 MR. KORNSTEIN: And, your Honor, may Mr. Piatt
22 walk into the well to get it set up near the court
23 reporter's table?
24 THE COURT: Yes, he may. 25 MR. BOSTWICK: We have an extension cord, if 21
re all set up
what exhibit it is vje hear
33, just near the end KORNSTEIN: Exhibit 4
taPB " "" THE coUM! That.S a tape thafs in evidence
MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: All right. You're going to play a
part of the tape MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes. THE COURT: All right. You may. !• (Tape played.) MR. KORNSTEIN: Was that clear to — THE COURT: No, not to me. Did the jurors understand that? I think it v»as — someone said yes, someone said no. (Tape played again.) MR. KORNSTEIN: Was that better, your Honor? THE COURT: Well, as far as I'm concerned, I understand some of it, but others is garbled to me. Now, I don't know. Maybe the jurors — do you think any of it is garbled or - I think if you have a transcription that you 22
1 can agree upon, that you'd be better off reading that
2 transcription. f 3 MR. KORNSTEIN: Fine, we'll do that, your Honor.
4 Do you have Exhibit 433? It's the last page of
5 that exhibit.
6 Your Honor, may I read the sentence —
7 THE COURT: Yes.
6 MR. KORNSTEIN: — from the transcript prepared
9 by Mr. Bostwick?
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 MR. KORNSTEIN: This is the text in the
12 transcript: "I tried to cling to the idea that -- and did
13 for a long time thereafter — that it was totally the work
14 of others that he — I could understand taking some
15 amphetamines- After all, they weren't so bad, .just to stay
16 up a little bit and party; but I couldn't understand the
17 LSD and Jay, of course, assured me that it was given to him
18 unknown to himself."
19 That's the text of the transcript.
20 THE COURT: All; right. What's your question?
21 MR. KORNSTEIN- The question that Mr. Bostwick
22 objected to was: "Was that statement true when you made it
23 on tape?
24 MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question as being
25 compound. 23
1 THE COURT: All right. Why don't you break 2 the statement down and it's sustained. i 3 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 4 Q When you made that statement, could you understand 5 taking some amphetamines ? 6 MR. BOSTWICK: I object to the question as 7 being vague and ambiguous. 8 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, those are the 9 words that the witness used in the statement. 10 THE COURT: Well, I know that's what he said; 11 but — What is your question? 12 MR. KORNSTEIN: Could he understand taking some 13 amphetamines. 14 THE COURT; What does that mean? You mean, 15 could he understand? Could he understand that anyone could 16 take amphetamines or that —
17 MR. KORNSTEIN: We'll try it that way, your
18 Honor. 19 Q Could you understand that anyone could take 20 amphetamines ? 21 A I think that's a mischaracterization of what I was 22 saying in that sentence. 23 Q Well, now I'm asking a different question: Could you 24 understand taking some amphetamines? 25 THE COURT: Anyone? I 24
BY MR. KORNSTEXN: .* 1 1 2 Q Anyone taxing some amphetamines? i 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. And then you say in the statement: They weren't
5 so bad.
C Did you think that amphetamines weren't so bad? 7 A Amphetamines as a whole, or amphetamines abused? 8 Q Amphetamines as a whole. 9 A Amphetamines as a whole are bad drugs. 10 Q You said here they weren't so bad. 11 Did you mean by that that amphetamines weren't so bad? 12 A In the context in which I was saying it, I did, yes. 13 Q Then you say: just to stay up a little bit and party. I* 14 Did you mean by that that it was all right to take 15 amphetamines to stay up a little bit and party? 16 A "Not exactly, no . I 17 Q You didn't mean that? 18 A I meant something by that, but not what you're I 19 inferring. 20 Q Did you mean that it was all right, if you had to stay 21 up all night, to take some amphetamines? I 22 A Well, I don't believe it says all night. it might, 23 but I don't believe it does. I believe I was referring to 24 the difference between a casual use of an occasional 25 amphetamine and LSD usage. I believe that's the context of I I I 25
i that — that sentence. 2 ©kay. Putting aside all night, you say to stay up a !• Q 3 little bit, just to stay up a little bit. Those are your
4 words. Are you saying that it's all right to take
5 amphetamines to stay up a little bit? 1 6 A Not generally, no. That's not what I'm saying.
7 Q And you don't have a qualification in the sentence or 8 the statement that you made; do you? 1 9 MR. BOSTWICK: I object to the question as 10 being argumentative.
11 THE COURT; Sustained.
12 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 13 Q When you made the statement, weren't you basing it on to 14 your own personal experience? 15 A NO.
16 Q "Now, on your direct examination, a couple of times the i 17 question came up whether or not you were working every 18 night in the month of January 1970. i 19 Do you remember that question on direct examination? 20 A Yes, I do. 21 Q Isn't it true that you told investigators Pruett and 22 Reams on March 20th, 1971, quote, "I worked every night," 23 close quote, referring to January 1970? 24 A I don't recall saying that, no. 2S Are you asking me, do I recall saying that?
I 26
1 Q- Yes.
2 A No, I don't recall saying that.
3 Q Would it refresh your recollection to see your
4 testimony?
5 A Yes, it would.
I 6 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I approach the
7 witness?
8 THE COURT: Yes. What do you have in your
9 hand now?
10 MR. KORNSTEIN: I have a transcript of an
11 interview between the witness and a Colonel Jack Pruett and I u a Peter Kearns from the United States Army Criminal 13 Investgation Division dated March 20th, 1971. 5* 14 THE COURT: All right. Have you seen this? 15 MR. BOSTWICK: I think we have a copy; and if
16 I could just see what it is, then I'll be sure of that.
17 (Pause.)
IS MR. BOSTWICK: Yes, your Honor, we've got a I 19 copy. Thank you. 20 THE COURT: Very well. You may approach the
21 witness. I 22 MR. KORNSTEIN: Page 70. 23 MR. BOSTWICK: Okay. I would object to it
24 being called testimony, your Honor; but other than that I
25 have no obj ection. B I 27 1 THE COURT: It's a recordation of an interview; P 2 is. it2- f 3 MR. BOSTWICK: It's called a meeting. 4 THE COURT: A meeting. Is it a situation where
5 there is sworn testimony? I 6 MR. KORNSTEIN: It does not appear to be sworn 7 testimony, your Honor. It appears to be a formal interview, 8 but the witness is not sworn. 9 MR. BOSTWICK:- Your Honor, I believe we would
10 have in most cases an objection as to hearsay, but we don't 11 obj ect to Dr. MacDonald answering the question on — under
12 these circumstances. 1 13 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, it's this witness 14 own statement. 15 THE COURT: If this is meaningless, let's 16 proceed. 17 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 18 Q On that page, about midway down, where your answer 19 begins: I don't know. I would say January. 20 Do you see the reference? 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q Now, before this interview began with Pruett and 23 Kearns, weren't you read your Constitutional rights as a 24 suspect? 25 A I would have to check, but I would presume so. I I 28 1 Q Okay. Would you read your statement that begins with 2 the words "I don't know" and ends "probably in January"? p i 3 A (Reading:) I 4 "I don't know. 1 would say January, most of the night. 5 I worked every night. I worked and a couple of nights 6 in December. So I would guess it was probably in 7 January." 8 Q All right. Does that refresh your recollection about 9 whether or not you were working every night during the 10 month of January 1970? 11 A No. It does not. 12 Q Is this statement incorrect? 13 A Yes. H 14 Q Is it a false statement? 15 MR. BOSTWICK: I object, your Honor. It's 16 mischaracterizing the document. 17 THE COURT: Mischaracterizing the document. 18 Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: The question was: Is it a false 20 statement? 21 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: I 22 Q Yes. 23 A The information contained in that statement is false. 24 Whether it's typed incorrectly or not, I have no knowledge. 25 Q When did you see this transcript for the first time?
I 29
I 1 A For the first time? 2 Q ^eah. f t 3 A I'm not sure. 4 Q Well, was it around 1971? 5 A I'm not sure.
6 Q Was it several -years ago? 7 A It would be many years ago.
8 Q Before the indictment? 9 A Did I see this before the indictment?
10 Q Yes. 11 A I'm not sure.
12 Q Certainly before the trial in 1979? 13 A I have no recall of having read this document. When you read it for the first time, did you notify * 14 Q 15 anybody that that statement was incorrect? 16 A I'm not sure I ever read this document. 17 Q Now, when you testified on direct examination that the 18 statement in "Fatal Vision" that you were working every 19 night in January — or moonlighting every night in January 20 — and you said that statement was false, and it was
21 attributed to this transcript with Pruett and Kearns, did 1 22 you check the transcript at that time? 23 A I checked two transcripts that we had on the caun — on 24 our table over here. I don't know if they match this. But I 25 I read through two transcripts. 30
I 1 Q And you didn't see these words, "every night"? f 2 21 worked every night"? a A They may have been there. But I don't recall seeing 4 them. I recall seeing the other segments where I discussed 5 two to three nights a week. 6 Q Well, do you have any reason to believe that the 7 transcripts you have are any different — or that your 8 Counsel has and that you read early in the trial, are any 9 different than the transcript you're looking at right now? 10 A I have no way of knowing that. I'd have to compare 11 them. 12 Q So, would you like to do so? 13 MR. KORNSTEIN: Would the Court permit just 14 to check that page to see if the transcripts that Counsel !• 15 have match that paragraph? 16 THE WITNESS: Are you asking me? I 17 MR. RORNSTEIN: With the Court's permission, 18 would that be all right? 19 THE COURT: You're asking to compare them? 20 MR. KORNSTEIN: Or have a stipulation or 21 representation from Counsel that, in fact, the transcript 22 page is identical. Just so there is no doubt. 23 THE COURT: Mr. Bostwick, do you want to 24 stipulate to that? I 25 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm a little perplexed. But as 31
i to the part that was read — on Page 70, that the witness k 2 wa s asked to read — 3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. BOSTWICK: — the copy of this transcript
S that we have here in front of me, is exactly the same as
€ the witness read. Whether this transcript was read by the
7 witness the other day, that I don't know.
8 THE COURT: Very well.
9 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
10 Q Did you read any other copy of the transcript besides
11 the one that your Counsel has?
12 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, I object. He's
13 mischaracterizing the witness' testimony. We have four Be 14 different documents. IS MR. KQRNSTEIN: Your Honor, then I'd ask that 16 — and it will just take a moment — to check Page 70 on 17 each one of those. I don't want there to be any doubt. 18 THE COURT: Well, why don't you — I understood i 19 what was said is that Page 70 in the document that's before 20 the witness is the same Page 70, contains the same
21 material, as that copy that Mr. Bostwick has in his hand. f 22 Now, what is your question? 23 MR.. KORHSTEIK: Then he said there were four 24 other copies and I just wanted to make sure that they — 25 THE COURT: I don't know what four other copies 32
i means either. What do you mean by four other copies, t 2 Mr. BDstwick? 3 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, what I'm saying is 4 that there are two different transcripts, one from March 5 20th and one from February 19th. 6 THE COURT: Covering the same material? 7 MR. BOSTWICK: That cover a meeting with Pruett 8 and Kearns and Dr. MacDonald. I just don't want to have 9 anything erroneous in the record as to what Dr. MacDonald 10 was looking at the other day. 11 THE COURT: Is there another Page 7 0 that \z contains the same material? 13 MR. BOSTWICK: No, sir. to 14 THE COURT: Very well. Let's go on. 15 MR. KORNSTEIH: Okay. 16 Q If you recall,on direct examination you were asked a 17 question whether or not you ever did say to Pruett and 18 Kearns that you worked every night in January, and your 19 i answer was that you did not make such a statement. 20 Do you want to correct that testimony now? 21 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, object. He 22 mischaracterizes the testimony of the witness. The record 23 speaks for itself. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 •MR. KORNSTEIIT: All right. I 33
I 1 Q When you went to college, you had outside jobs while 2 you were attending college? Jobs to help defray the costs f i 3 of college? 4 A Yes. 5 Q During the term as well as during the summer?
6 A Yes. 7 Q And at an academically excellent school like Princeton
8 exam periods were rough periods in terms of the amount of ' 9 time devoted to studying and the pressure; isn't that
10 correct? •j 1 A Well, Princeton has what's called a reading period. 12 They have two weeks prior to exams where there are no 13 classes, so I don't know what you determine to be rough,
* 14 but we had time to study. 15 Q Well, did it ever happen while you were in college 16 that you had to stay up all night to cram for an exam? 17 A Probably, for organic chemistry I believe I did. 18 Q Do you recall any other times besides the one in 19 organic chemistry? 20 A No, I can't recall any at this time. 2-1 Q All right. Now, while you did that, did you take any 22 No-Doz to stay up?
23 A No. 24 Q Did you take any other chemical to help yon stay up? 25 A No. 34
1 Q In medical school, the academic grind and pressure
was eyen greater than in college; wasn't it? 2 i A Yes, I believe — I would classify it as considerably 3 I 4 greater, yes. Q And you had to study more for exams? 5 I 6 A Yes. 7 Q And there were more "all-nighters"?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How many? A How many all-nighters? 10 11 Q Right, that you had to put in for exams in medical
12 school.
13 A I couldn't give you a rational answer on that. Be 14 Q Do you recollect whether it was more than ten? 15 A Over four years?
16 Q Uh-huh.
17 A All-nighters?
18 Q Or close to it.
19 A It was considerably greater than that, yes. 20 Q So it was a fairly common thing to stay up all night,
21 or most of the night, to study for exams in- medical school?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And were you aware that several of the students that
24 you knew in medical school would take some form of
25 stimulant to allow them to stay up all night, to help study? 35
i A Yes, I was aware of that. 2 Q And what were some of those stimulants that the other 3 students used? 4 A No-Doz, coffee, and diet pills. 5 Q And was it fairly common for students to use such 6 stimulants to help stay up all night for studying? I 7 A I don't know what common would be among a medical 8 school class. 9 Q Well, was it fairly common among the people that you 10 were aware of, that you knew? 11 A I would say it occasionally occurred that I was aware 12 of. I was only aware of a few people in my circle. 13 Q And for all the all-nighters that you had to pull in H 14 order to study for the exams in medical school, didn't you 15 once take some form of stimulant to help get through the 16 night? 17 A I probably did. 18 Q Wasn't that — why don't you tell us what that 19 stimulant was? 20 A I'm not sure what it was. I 21 Q Well, it was some form of a pill? 22 A Yes. A medical student had given me two — one or 23 two pills, I believe. 24 Q And it got you through the night. You were alert and 25 energetic as a result? L 36
I 1 A Oh, I don't have any recall of that. 2 Q Bo you have any recall of what happened that evening f i a after you took the pills? 4 A "No. 5 Q Was that the only time in medical school that you took
6 those pills? 7 A I believe so, yes. I believe that's accurate. 8 Q And you took pills given to you by another medical 9 student without knowing what the pills were? 10 A What do you mean by "know what they were"? U Q Did he tell you what the pills were? 12 A I believe — I'm sure I had some indication from him. 13 I can't recall what it was. I mean —
to 14 Q Did he tell you they will help you stay up during the 15 night? 16 A Oh, I'm sure he did. 17 Q And did he tell you that they were a stimulant?
18 A I don't know if he used that word, but that was I 19 certainly what I came to understand, yes. 20 Q Did he tell you they-were an amphetamine? I 21 A He may have. 22 Q Did he use the word "Speed" in describing them? 23 A That was a common word. I don't know. I don't recall 24 He may have. 25 Q Did you have any reaction to taking those pills, any 37
i physical reaction?
2 A Do I recall now? j 3 Q Yes. 4 A I can't recall.
5 Q Was it because that period is a blank-out in your
6 memo ry ? 7 A No. I don't believe so. 8 Q What happened the next day at the exam? Were you able 9 to get through the exam all right? 10 MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question as
11 being irrelevant.
12 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, I think this is
13 highly relevant. Be 14 THE COURT: Well, if I want argument, I'll 15 invite it. The objection is overruled. You may answer. 16 THE WITNESS: I have no recall of what happened i 17 that day for an exam I can't remember. 18 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 19 Q Did you have an emotional reaction to taking those 20 pills on that occasion, either that evening or the next day? 21 A I don't have any recall of that. 22 Q Well, did you have any mood change as result of taking 23 those pills? 24 A I don't recall that. 25 Q Did you have any personality change as a result?
I 1 38
1 A I don't recall that. i* 2 Q Did you get into any arguments the next day? 3 A I don't recall that. 4 Q DO you recall hitting anyone the next day?
5 A Me? 6 Q Yes, you. 7 A No. I don't recall that. 8 Q Now, after medical school you had an internship at 9 Columbia Presbyterian on 158th Street in New York? 10 A Yes, that's.right. 11 ,Q And at that time you were living in Bergenfiel.d, I 12 New Jersey, with your wife and your older daughter? 13 A Both daughters, yes. 14 Q Kristen was born by then? 15 A Yes. 16 Q The internship year is a very brutal year; isn't it? 17 A Yes, I would definitely say that. 18 Q in terms of the time demands made on a young doctor i 19 right out of medical school; isn't that correct? 20 A Any doctor right out of medical school. 21 Q And the Columbia program was particularly brutal in 22 terms of the time demands it made? 23 A Yes, it was. 24 Q And what would your average schedule be like in terms 25 of shifts, hours on and hours off?
I 39
i A 36 hours on, 12 hours off.
2 Q Old it ever get any worse than that? ? i 3 A Yes.
4 Q Would you describe the hours when it was worse than
5 that?
€ A Well, every once in a while you wouldn't get home when
7 you were supposed to have your 12 hours off. So it would
8 end up being two times 36, plus 12, before you got home.
9 Q And this was a regimen that made you very tired and
10 exhausted?
11 A Every intern was tired and exhausted, yes.
12 Q But you were tired and-exhausted yourself; weren't you?
13 A Yes. te 14 Q In order to stay up during these periods where there
15 was a lack of sleep, did any of the other interns, to your
16 knowledge, use some form of stimulant? I 17 A I don't believe so. Not that I'm aware of. 18 Q No one that you are aware of took any No-Doz, or i 19 amphetamine, or diet pill, to get through these grueling 20 hours?
21 A That I had personal knowledge of?
22 Q Yes.
23 A No. I mean I don't recollect any at this time, no. 24 Q During that year which was so grueling and 'tiresome
2S didn't you once take some stimulant to help get through 40
i these long nights?
2 I MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question as being i 3 vague' and ambiguous as to the use of the term "stimulant."
4 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
5 THE WITNESS: The only stimulant that I can
6 recall taking"was coffee. I took coffee at night.
7 BY MR. KGRNSTEIN:
8 Q And the coffee helped keep you up?
9 A I don't know if it really did, but it certainly is
10 perceived that way.
11 Q Well, if in medical school you had taken those two
12 pills and they had helped keep you up, didn't you want to
13 use similar kinds of pills during the internship year to Bft 14 help you get through those nights? 15 A No.
16 Q Was it because you had a bad reaction to those pills?
17 A No. Not that I recall.
18 Q When you were in college, did you work out with the
19 college boxing team at all?
20 A • There was no college boxing team.
21 Q Or club?
22 A Clubs. There was a club. Yes, I did.
23 Q Did they have weight classes?
24 A Yes, they did.
25 Q Were you about a middle-weight, 157, 15B, or a little
I 41
i more? 2 A Wo, no, no. I was a heavy — I was boxing heavy-weight f i; 3 Q Over 175? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And didn't you use some diet pills to lose some weight 6 when you were working out with the boxing club in college? 7 A I don't recall doing that.
8 Q Isn't that what you told Dr. Sadoff?
9 A I may have, but I don't have any recollection of that,
10 Q You don't have any recollection of telling Dr. Sadoff 11 or of taking the diet pills for the college boxing club? 12 A Either. I have recollection of neither of those 13 episodes that you're referring to. to 14 Q At least one member of your family has had a drug 15 problem; isn't that correct?
16 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object, your Honor,
17 as not being relevant.
IS THE COURT: Sustained. i 19 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 20 Q Were you familiar with possible results of abuse of
21 amphetamines by observing anything in your own family? 22 MR. BOSTWICK: Same objection, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 25 Q In your tapes to Mr. McGinniss and in your letters.
I I 42 1 did you discuss any drug problems by — suffered by a
2 member of your family? p i 3 A Yes, 1 did. 4 Q What did you say in those discussions as best you can
5 recall, the substance? 6 A The overall substance? 7 Q Yes.
8 A That 1 had a brother who had had a problem, an
9 emotional breakdown that seemed to have been triggered by
10 drugs. And that he was requiring treatment. And I detailed
11 for Joe, I believe, the ten years of in and out of
12 hospitalizations and psychiatric care that he required. It
13 was apparently a combination of things. 18 14 Q And one of those things was abuse of amphetamines? IS A That was apparently one of the triggers, yes.
16 Q Now, in your letters to Mr. McGinniss, didn't you I 17 refer to amphetamines as, quote, "Whites"? 18 A -Yes, I — well, I don't have recall of doing that, 19 but we certainly would have — any time during the seventies 20 — referred to them as that.
21 Q You say, "We certainly would have referred to it as 22 that." When you say "we," who are you referring to? 23 A Emergency room physicians, emergency physicians, you 24 see it routinely. 25 Q And what are "Whites"?
I 43
I i A "Whites" are — well, it's a street term that was used 2 for a"capsule of — I don't recall at this point whether ? i 3 it was biphetamines or amphetamines, but one of the 4 chemical formulations of amphetamines. 5 Q Did you come by that jargon from your medical work? 6 A I'm not sure. 7 Q Or did you come by that jargon from dealing in 8 amphetamines ? 9 A No, I didn't come from it by dealing.
10 Q Did you come from it by conversations with your 11 brother? 1 12 A I don't believe so, no. I was unaware of my brother's 13 drug use until he had a hospitalization. Be 14 Q Have you any personal experience with using "Whites"? 15 A You mean street drugs? 16 Q Whatever "Whites" means.. It's not my term; it's a i 17 term you used. 18 A Well, the term can be used — it's used by street 19 people all the time as any stimulant, any amphetamine 20 variety. I'm sorry,I lost your question. What was your 21 question? 22 Q Do you have any personal experience with using 23 "Whites"? 24 A If we're using the term "Whites" to mean street drugs, 25 no. 44
1 Q Excluding street drugs. 2 A Well, if you then take that term to mean any possible f i 3 stimulant in the amphetamine category, if you would say 4 that a stimulant I may have taken on one or two occasions 5 in medical school can be referred to as "Whites," I guess 6 the answer's yes. 7 Q All right. "Now, going back to the first month or two 8 in 1970, isn't it correct that you had been tired for a 9 few months from the regimen you were living under at that
10 time, physically tired? 11 A In 1970? 12 Q Yes. 13 A No. 14 Q No. And the moonlighting, however number of nights E 15 a week that you were doing it, did not add to your being 16 tired? i 17 A Ho. Not at that time, no. 18 Q When you came home on the late afternoon of February 19 16th, and after dinner, you did take a nap on the floor; 20 isn't that correct? 21 A I believe that I fell asleep for a short time on the i 22 floor, yes. 23 Q You were tired when you did that; weren't you? 24 A I don't recall. I don't recall that feeling. Are you 25 asking now for my recollection of was I tired? 45
1 Q Was it your habit to take a nap when you were not
2 tired? f j 3 A Yes. 4 Q And you don't recall whether or not you were tired
5 that night? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q And your testimony in other proceedings has been that 8 you stayed up till 2 o'clock or so that evening; isn't that 9 correct? 10 A Yes, that's correct. 11 Q Would it be fair to say that you, after the nap, had a t2 second wind? 13 A I'm not sure I'd characterize it as that. 1* 14 Q Well, you were not sleepy after the nap, you stayed up 15 till 2 o'clock. 16 A Yes, that's true. 17 Q You watched the Johnny Carson show? 18 A Yes, I believe we did. 19 Q And you were reading a Mickey Spillane book called 20 "Kiss me Deadly"? 21 A At some time that evening, yes. 22 Q And you began to wash the dishes somewhere around 23 2 o'clock? I 24 A I'm not sure if I began at 2:00, but 1 did wash the 25 dishes.
I 46
1 Q After midnight? rf* 2A I believe it was, yes. 3 Q And Colette had gone to bed sometime before that? 4 A That's correct. 1 5 Q Now, it wasn't your normal procedure on week nights 6 to stay up till 2 o'clock washing dishes; was it? 7 A I'm not sure what you mean by normal. It happened 8 fairly frequently. 3 9 Q That.you washed the dishes at 2 o'clock in the morning? 10 A Or any combination of the different things you1ve 11 said. 12 Q And was it your practice to wash the dishes with 13 surgical gloves? 14 A If they were on the sink, yes. E 15 Q Did you keep surgical gloves on the sink routinely? 16 A I didn't, Colette did. 17 Q Now, in Exhibit 155, the notes that you prepared for 18 your attorneys, you mentioned that you may have taken 1 19 an Eskatrol diet pill that evening. Do you recall writing 20 that? 21 A I don't recall writing the words down.' I've seen the 22 notes. 23 Q Would you look at the notes? Does that refresh your I 24 recollection? I 25 A Yes.
I 47 1 Q And it's in your handwriting? 2 A • les, it is. 3 Q But you don't recall writing it? 4 A I'm trying to be precise to answer your question. 1 5 don't recall sitting down and writing the words, no, I don't 6 have that recollection. I know I wrote these notes. 7 Q And the words were, "1 may have taken an Eskatrol 8 diet pill that evening around dinner time"? f 9 A 'No- 10 Q What are the exact words, just on that point? 1 U A It is possible I had one diet pill at this time. I do I 12 not remember. 13 Q Okay. That's fine. And "this time" refers to around 14 dinner time? ft* 15 A That's right. I 16 Q Mow, would you look at Exhibit 402, the book, Pages 28 I 17 and 29. 18 In fact, what I'd like you to do, would you read I 19 Pages 28 and — Page 28, the top half of the page, 20 particularly the paragraph beginning, "Screaming and 21 cursing." 22 A Yes, I read that. 23 Q All right. Do you recall whether that is an accurate I 24 description of what you were doing at that time, your I 25 symptoms, your actions ? 48 e i MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object to the 2 question as being compound. There are multiple statements r i 3 in here about the actions. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 MR. KORNSTEIN: All right. Let rtie break it up. I 6 Q You did tell both the CID investigators on April 6th 7 and Pruett and Kearns that your teeth were chattering on 8 that evening? Do you recall that? 9 A February 17th? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Yes. U Q And you told the CID investigators on April 6th, 1970, 13 that you had chills? Remember that? ft© 14 A Yes, I believe so. E 15 Q And you went on at some length on April 6th talking 16 about how cold you really felt; didn't you? Do you recall E 17 that? 18 A I believe so, yes. 19 Q All right. And were you also agitated and restless 20 that evening afterwards ? 21 A Which evening are we talking about now? 22 Q The 17th, after the incident, when you were taken to 23 the hospital. E 24 A I don't recall how I was when I was taken to the E 25 hospital.
E 49
1 Q Is it that you don't have any recollection at this 2 time of how you felt or how you were acting at that time? 3 A Yes, I have no real recall of how I felt at that time. A Q Do you know whether you had any muscle movements where 5 you were thrashing around when you were taken to the 6 hospital? 7 A I have no recall of any thrashing around. 8 Q Do you have any recall of what medications or 9 sedatives were given to you at the hospital? 10 A Do I have any recall? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I have read testimony. 13 Q Other than what you've read testimony about, do you ee 14 know of your own knowledge? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you have any reason to believe the testimony of 17 the treating physicians was different from what their IS testimony has been? 19 Let me rephrase that: That what you read they did to 20 you, do you have any reason to believe is not what they 21 did? 22 A I have no reason to doubt the medical record on the 23 medications given, if that's your question. 24 Q Yes. And generally, what I'm saying is, is the 25 description Of the treatment you received as set forth in 50
1 "Fatal vision" in terms of what your symptoms were, without 2 talking about wounds, just in terms of symptoms, what your 3 emotional state was like, the words that you were saying; 4 do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy/ of those 5 descriptions? 6 MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question as being .7 unintelligible. 8 THE COURT: Read it back, please. 9 (Record read.) 10 THE COURT: I think you should rephrase it. 11 It's a little convoluted. Sustained. 12 MR. KOKNSTEIH: All right. 13 Q Looking at Page 28 of "Fatal Vision," the last line B* 14 of the first full paragraph where there's a statement that 15 you seemed to be agitated to the point of hysteria. 16 Do you have any reason to doubt that? 17 A I've heard testimony to the opposite of this, if that's 18 what you mean. 19 Q Well, I'm not suggesting one thing or the other. I 2-0 wasn't there. I just want to know, do you know whether you 21 were or were not agitated to the point of hysteria? 22 A Do I recall if I was agitated? I recall being 23 agitated,-but I do not recall hysteria. 24 Q Okay. Do you recall, in the next paragraph, screaming 25 and cursing, and talking to a nurse who asked for your 51
1 Social Security number?
2 A 1 don't have a clear recollection of that, no.
3 Q Do you know whether there was any concern that you
4 might jump up from the litter?
5 A I can't recall any testimony or statements to that
6 effect.
7 Q All right. And do you know whether you were pushing
8 and swearing as you tried to struggle free of the MPs and
9 the medics as they were wheeling you out of the house?
10 A I recall falling off the stretcher in the hallway,
U trying to get into my daughter's room. And I remember
12 someone — I don't know if it was MPs or medics — grabbing
13 me and pulling me back on the stretcher. 1* 14 Q And do you remember Dr. Bronstein, Merrill Bronstein?
15 A Yes.
16 Q He's someone that you had worked with at the hospital
17 there as well before the incident?
18 A At the hospital?
19 Q At Fort Bragg.
20 A I don't believe so.
21 Q No? All right. Well, you knew him before February
22 17th?
23 A Yes.
24 Q You've seen his Grand Jury testimony?
25 A I may have. 52 1 Q Well, he testified at the criminal trial against you;'
2 didn'£ he? 3 A Yes, he testified. 4 Q He testified; and weren't all the transcripts of the 5 Grand Jury witnesses who testified at the trial given to 6 yon before the trial, or during the trial as part of the 7 Jencks Act requirement? 8 A I believe they were given to us after they testified. 9 Q But before cross-examination?
10 A Yes. 11 Q And you read his Grand Jury testimony? 12 A I'm not sure that I read Merrill Eronstein's. 13 Q All right. Do you have any reason to doubt what he
* 14 says about his wanting you to be sedated, on Page 30? 15 A Is there a paragraph that I should be reviewing? 16 Q The first full paragraph where it says, referring to 17 you, "He was very upset and I was very concerned for him 18 because he was kind of hysterical." And then going on over 19 the next few paragraphs talking about giving you sedatives 20 to calm you down. 21 A I am — I have heard Merrill Bronstein testify that 22 he wanted to calm me down, yes. 23 Q And do you see what he says, just about in the middle 24 of the page, the paragraph beginnig, "But I never really 25 accomplished what I intended," Bronstein said. "I mean I 53
i never really knocked him out or made him incoherent in any 2 way • l — 3 Did you understand at the time that you were being 4 given sedatives at the hospital?
5 A I don't have any recall. The doctors were speaking € to me, but I'm not sure that at that time, as they were 7 giving me sedatives, I was aware it was sedatives. Is that 8 your question? 9 Q Yes. You just weren't aware of it.
10 A I knew they were giving me medication. I'm not sure 11 that I knew exactly what it was. 12 Q From your experience as a physician, isn't it correct 13 that if a patient is suffering from a psychotic reaction to B© 14 an amphetamine, that sedatives may not take effect? 15 MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question as calling 16 for speculation on the part of this witness and an opinion. 17 He's not an expert witness. 18 THE COURT; You're asking him as an expert? 19 This question? 20 MR. KOKNSTBIN: Yes.
21 THE COURT: All right. You may.answer> doctor. 22 Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS; And the question was; May I 24 sedatives not sedate someone having a psychotic reaction? 25 Q To amphetamines, yes. 54
1 A May? i* 2 Q Right. 3 A Yes, I'm aware of that. I 4 Q All right. Now, are.you familiar with the phrase 5 "extraparametal symptoms"? 6 A Yes, I am. 7 Q Would you tell us what it means? 8 A It is an involuntary movement of the musculature of 9 the body; facial grimaces that are uncontrollable; your 10 tongue protruding uncontrollably; and, again, involuntary 11 and unnatural movements of the extremities. Sometimes with 12 a stiffening of the back and an arching of .the neck, so 13 that — so strong that, in fact, the heels and the back of ft© 14 the head can keep the patient — that can be the only part 15 of the patient touching the bed. 16 Q Something like convulsions or spasms? 17 A Ho. It's not like either. 18 Q Just a rigidity in the body? 19 A No. It's a very specific, very unusual finding that — 20 an extraparametal reaction is a singular reaction — I'm 21 sorry. That's not correct. It's a group of reactions that 22 occur often in response to medications that can be 23 immediately reversed and it's easily recognizable by a I 24 physician. 25 Q I'd like to ask you a few questions about the 55
i "Physicians' Desk Reference" and the Goodman and Gilman 2 text that were taken judicial notice of by the Court. 3 MR. KORNSTEIN: Is there a copy to give the 4 witness? Of those pages? 5 THE COURT: Well, there is a copy in evidence. 6 MR. KORNSTEIN: Could that be placed in front 7 of the witness, your Honor? a THE COURT: Yes. The Clerk will have to find 9 it. Maybe we should take our morning recess while she 10 finds it. 1 think I can give you the numbers of it. 11 I think there are two exhibits, are there not, relating 1 12 to the — that the Court took judicial notice of? 13 MR. KORNSTEIN: I believe so. There are two to 14 texts. One is the "Physicians' Desk Reference"; the other 15 is something called "Goodman and Gilman." 16 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, we are going to have 17 an objection to questions of Dr. MacDonald's expert opinion 18 about anything in the "Physicians' Desk Reference" or 19 "Goodman and Gilman" as not being relevant and calling for 20 an expert opinion when he's not here on the stand as an 21 expert.
22 THE COURT: Well, that is another problem. If 23 you're going to be asking him expert opinions in the 24 medical field, you'll have to wait until you're putting i 25 your case on and call him as your expert witness. I 56 i MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, I do not believe r 2 I wil!C be asking him expert opinions about those exhibits. 3 THE COURT: All right. Then if you're not,
4 then we don't have that problem.
5 All right. "We'll take a 15-minute recess,
6 ladies and gentlemen. Remember the admonition of the Court.
7 THE CLERK: All rise. This court is in recess
8 for 15 minutes. E 9 (Morning recess.) 10
11 I 12 13 I certify that the foregoing is a true and correct
14 transcript of proceedings had on the record in the to 15 above-entitled matter.
16
17
18 Q - Official Court Reporter Dat3,z^e m 19
20
21
22
23
24
2S 57 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, JULY 30, 1987; 11:15 A.M. i 2 "(In the presence of the jury:) 3 THE COURT: Are these the two documents you 4 wanted to examine the witness on? 5 MR. KORNSTEIN: I can't tell from here, your 6 Honor. 7 THE COURT: Step up and look at these. 8 MR. KORHSTEIN: Yes, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. Put those before the 10 I witness, please. I don't think they've been marked as 11 exhibits. We just took judicial notice of them. 12 MR. KORNSTEIN: Would the Court prefer that 13 they have exhibit numbers on them? fte 14 THE COURT: It doesn't matter to me. I think 15 they were used by Mr. Bostwick when he was examining 16 Mr. McGinniss. And I don't think we identified them with i 17 an exhibit number. 18 MR. BOSTWICK: "No, we did not, your Honor. 19 But we have no objection to doing that. 20 THE COURT: Either way, if you want to mark 21 them as exhibits, we'll mark them. 22 MR. KORNSTEIN: Maybe it would be easier. 23 MR. BOSTWICK: We'll move them into evidence, 24 your Honor. i 25
1 i MR. KORNSTEIN: Joint application. 2 THE COURT: All right. Well, one of them is 3 a PDR from 1977 and the other is a PDR from 1970; isn't it? 4 MR- BOSTWICK: That's correct, your Honor. 5 And then there was one other, which was the excerpts from 6 • Goodman and Giiman, or vice vers a. 7 THE WITNESS; That's attached here, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. Hell, how do you want 9 to mark them? 10 MR. BOSTWICK: If I could approach the witness 11 and — u THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. BOSTWICK: — separate them. to 14 THE COURT: How would you like them marked? IS MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, if we could mark 16 them with the "Physicians' Desk Reference" from 1977 as the i 17 next Plaintiff's Exhibit in order. 18 THE CLERK: That will be 474. 19 THE COURT: Exhibit 4-7-4. All right. And that 20 will be received in evidence. 21 (Exhibit 474 received in evidence.) 22 That's the 1977 PDR reference. 23 MR. BOSTWICK: Then there is one page from the E 24 1970 "Physicians' Desk Reference" which we would move into 25 evidence as Exhibit 475. L I 59
THE COURT: That will be received in evidence. i 2 ^Exhibit 475 received in evidence.) 3 • MR. BOSTWICK: And the title page and page 4 showing the copyright from 1980 of Goodman and Gilman's 5 "The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics," pins the 6 Pages 553 through 557 of that text, we would move into 7 evidence as Exhibit 47 6. 8 THE COURT: That will be received in evidence 8 9 as 4-7-6. 10 (Exhibit 476 received in evidence.) 11 THE COURT: All right. u CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 13 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: ie 14 Q Would you turn to Page 1473 of the PDR for 1977. 15 A Yes, I have that. 16 Q All right. In the section on overdosage, referring 17 to Eskatrol, and then the paragraph beneath that, dealing 18 with the dextroamphetamine sulfate. Do you see a sentence 19 about 9 lines down, beginning: "Cardiovascular reactions"? 20 A Not yet. I'm looking. Yes, I do see that. 21 Q All right. Y?ould you read out loud the first clause 22 up to the first comma in that sentence. 23 A I can read what's on the page here. It's not complete. 24 The Xerox is missing part of the words. 25 Cardio —
I I 60
I i Q Cardiovascular it should be.
2 A ^Cardiovascular" — probably — "reactions" — f t 3 Q Yes. 4 A "— may include chilliness" — 5 Q That's fine. Stop there. And would you turn on the 6 Goodman and Gilman exhibit to Page 557. 7 Do you have that page? 8 A Yes, I do. E 9 Q All right. Just above the nicotine and tobacco 10 heading, in that paragraph there, and then the sentence 11 that begins "Chlorpromazine ...", "Chlofpromazine will 12 antagonize ..." Eight' lines from the bottom. 13 A Oh, all right. 14 to Q That paragraph. 15 A Yes, I see that line. 16 Q Would you read that sentence out loud? 17 A "Chlorpromazine will antagonize many of the effects of IS the amphetamine and will also prevent shivering and reduce 19 blood pressure. 20 Q All right. Now, you did have chills and chattering 21 teeth that evening; didn't you? You testified to that 22 earlier. 23 A Yes. 24 Q How, would you also go back now to Page 1473 of the 25 PDP, for 1977, and in that same paragraph where we were
1 61 1 reading there's a sentence halfway through that paragraph
2 that begins: "In addition to gastric..." ! i 3 "Have you located that yet? 4 A Is this before the treatment section? E 5 Q It says — no, it's about the second sentence after 6 that. It says the "Treatment of Overdosage" and then it 7 says "In addition to gastric lavage..." 8 A Lavage. (Pronunciation.) E 9 Q Lavage. How would you read that sentence out loud? 10 A Yes. Beginning with "Treatment"? 11 Q No, "In addition..." 12 A Mine starts with the word "Addition." Is that where 13 it starts? to 14 Q It should be "In addition " 15 A All right. "In addition to gastric lavage and" — I 16 don't have the next word. 17 Q Catharsis. 18 A "Cathartics" — it would be. 19 Q It says "catharsis" in my copy. 20 A All right. "should be given" —' 21 Q "Sedatives"; is that missing from your copy? 22 A Yes. 23 Q All right. The word is "sedatives." 24 THE COURT: Maybe you should give him the 25 original.
E 62
1 (The witness receives the original PDR..} 2 ' - THE COURT: Now, read the sentence again,
3 doctor. 4 THE WITNESS: "In addition to gastric lavage 5 and catharsis, sedatives should be given when indicated." 6 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 7 Q All right. That's enough. 8 You were given sedatives that evening? 9 A Yes. I believe I was. IQ Q Now, on Page 1472 of the same reference, there is a 11 description of some adverse reactions. At the bottom of 13 the middle column where it says: "Adverse reactions" and 13 there is a heading or — within the paragraph — "Central i» 14 Nervous System." 15 A Which column are you on? I'm sorry, 16 Q The middle column there. 17 A Middle column. 18 Q Near the bottom of the middle column; after the words 19 "Adverse reactions" about three lines down it says "Central i 2.0 Nervous System" ? 21 ' A Yes. 22 Q It mentions overstimulation, restlessness, insomnia, 23 among other things; and then after a few other words it i 24 says: "rarely, psychotic episodes at recommended doses." 25 Is that correct?
1 63
1 A Yes, it does. 2 Q It also says in that same middle column near the top 3 third after "Drug Dependence: Amphetamines have a 4 significant potential for abuse." 5 Isn't that correct? 6 A Yes, it does. 7 Q And a few lines above that it says: "Amphetamines S may mask extreme fatigue"? 9 A Yes, it does say that. 10 Q Then on the next page, 1473, under the section 11 "Overdosage" and referring to the dextroamphetamine, it 12 talks about "Central effects, including restlessness," and 13 among other things, "insomnia, tenseness and irritability, A 14 confusion, assaultiveness, hallucinations, and panic states. 15 Doesn *t it say that? 16 A Yes. E 17 Q Now, are you familiar with chemically-induced IS psychosis? 19 A I'm not sure what you mean by familiar with. 20 Q Have you either studied it or experienced it in your 21 medical practice? I do not mean whether you, yourself, 22 have suffered it. 23 A I have treated patients who have had chemically- 24 induced psychosis, yes. 25 Q And would you tell us what it is? 64
1 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor. Not
2 relevant and calls for speculation on the part of this — t 3 I'm sorry, calls for an expert opinion on the part of this 4 witness. 5 THE COURT-. Well, I thought you advised the 6 Court you weren't going to be inquiring into medical 7 expertise. If so, I think we will have to reserve these 8 questions until you put on your case. 9 MR. KORNSTEIN: Okay. 10 Q Now, the section we've been reading in the PDR and 11 Goodman and Giln.an refers to Eskatrol. A Yes. 12 13 Q Would you look at the book. Exhibit 402, and turn to B* 14 Page 132? 15 A (Complies.) 16 Q This purports to be a section of your statement on 17 April 6th to the investigators, beginning with the 18 paragraph three lines or four lines after the top, "Okay. 19 Well again..." 20 Would you read those two paragraphs, the One beginning 21 "Okay," and the one after it, beginning, "Like I treated..".? I 22 A Read it to myself? 23 Q Please. 24 A Yes. 25 Q All right. Now, that's your description of treating
I 65
1 certain patients who have had drug problems?
> 2 A Well, it's not my discussion of my treatment. It's my i 3 discussion of that type of patient, yes- 4 Q The symptoms of that patient? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. Including, as you say here, amphetamine-type 7 things? • 8 A Yes, correct. 9 Q And.your phrase in the second paragraph is that such 10 a fellow, quote, "was capable^ of anything, I'm sure. He was 11 extremely agitated and wild, and all you had to.do is move 12 and, you know, he'd jump up and he was very paranoid. You 13 know, people were attacking him and he had to defend 14 himself." 15 That's your description of how someone — the symptoms 16 of someone who has been having a bad reaction to 17 amphetamines? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Would you also turn to Page 356 in the book. 20 You were familiar with a man named Coit, a newspaper 21 reporter? 22 A Yes, I came in contact with him, yes. 23 Q And did he, in fact, cover the Army Article 32 hearings 24 A I believe he was present. I believe I knew him at 25 that time, yes. 66
i Q And did he ever discuss with you about what he thought
2 might;have happened that night? Just yes or no. i 3 A He interviewed me, I believe, on several occasions, 4 coming out of the Article 32 hearing room. I'm not sure S what he asked me. I have no recollection of what he asked 6 me. 7 Q All right. Well, the passage I'd like you to read is, S it starts on the bottom of Page 357 and extends over to the 9 top of Page 358. 10 Would you read that out loud? 11 A Starting with the last two lines on 357? 12 Q Yes. 13 A "And also, four people who are doing acid couldn't to 14 organize a trip to the toilet, let alone organize a murder 15 of three people. Besides, LSD normally doesn1t make people 16 violent. The only' drug that I can think of that causes i 17 that kind of reaction in people is an amphetamine of some 18 kind." 19 Q Did you ever have any discussion with Mr. Coit about 20 these views that he's expressed?
21 A I can't recall any at this time. 22 Q And would you turn to Page 529. And this is a
23 discussion of the interview between Mr. Segal and Helena 24 Stoeckley- 25 A 429, you said? 67
i Q 529.
2 A I'm sorry. 3 Q Now, in the — approximately the middle of the page 4 there is a two-line paragraph beginning, "Somebody on 5 drugs ..." 6 Have you located that? 7 A Yes, I see that. 8 Q Would you read that — those two lines? 9 A "Somebody on drugs could do something like that. Not 10 acid. Maybe speed. Did they do blood tests on him right 11 away? " 12 Q All right. Now, in the notes. Exhibit 155, which you 13 prepared, you did put in parentheses in describing some of fi© 14 the aspects of Eskatrol, you referred to it as "Speed"; 15 didn't you? 16 A I believe I did.
17 Q Now, you are aware that both the PDR for 1970 — I'm 18 sorry—yes, for 1970 and 1977 say that Eskatrol should be 19 taken in the morning and not in the evening. 20 MR. BOSTWICKi Your Honor, I'm going to object. 21 I believe it raischaracterizes the 1970 "Physicians' Desk 22 Reference." 23 MR. KORNSTEIN; I'd be glad to go to the text. 24 THE COURT: Why don't you do that if there's a 25 question about it. I 68 i MR. KORNSTEIN; Do you have a copy of the 1970 f 2 PDR is front of you? 3 THE WITNESS: No, 1 have a 1977.
4 THE COURT: Well, we have one page. Is that
5 the page that —
6 MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes.
7 MR. BOSTWICK: This page happens to be a good
8 copy, your Honor. So he should be able to use this.
9 THE WITNESS: All right.
10 THE COURT: Marked 475.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have it, your Honor.
12 MR. BOSTWICK: What page number is it?
13 THE WITNESS: 1211. 1* 14 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 15 Q Does it mention there when Eskatrol should be taken?
16 A (Searching.)
17 Q Look in the third column on Page 1211, near the bottom
IB where it says, "Administration and Dosage."
19 A Yes, it does.
20 Q • It says: One capsule daily taken in the morning.
21 A Yes.
22 Q And the 1977 edition also says or recommends that
23 it be taken in the morning, not in the evening; isn't that B 24 true? 25 A I presume so. 69
1 Q Well, look at Page 1472 of the 1977 one, the lower 2 rightrhand corner. f i 3 A 1472, you said?
4 Q Yes, Page 1472, lower right-hand corner, where it says: 5 •Dosage and Administration. 6' A It says: One capsule daily taken in the morning. 7 Q All right. So that part is identical, the very wording 8 is identical with the 1970 edition; isn't it? That one 9 sentence? 10 A Yes.
11 Q And then it goes on to say, "If appetite control is 12 desired through evening hours, shift dose to mid-morning." 13 A Yes. l» 14 Q "Late afternoon or evening medication should be avoided 15 because of the resulting insomnia." 16 A Yes, I see that.
17 Q But both texts say that the pill should be taken in 18 the morning, not in the evening. 19 A That's correct. 20 Q In your notes you said it is possible that you took 21 one around supper time. 22 A Yes, they do say that. 23 Q Are you aware that Eskatrol has been taken off the 24 market? 25 A I have been made aware of that, yes. 70 1 Q And do you know when that occurred?
2 Z MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor. Not i 3 relevant. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. Do you know or don't 5 you? 6 THE WITNESS: I know only from "Fatal Vision," 7 your Honor. g BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 9 Q Now, in Goodman and Gilman, would you turn to Page 556? 10 A (Complies.) 11 Q Do you have that? 12 A Yes, I do. 13 Q All right. The first full paragraph on the left that B* 14 begins, "Unlike the user of morphine..." 15 A Yes. lg Q Could you read that paragraph out loud? 17 THE COURT: This is not your book, ladies and 18 gentlemen. This is Exhibit 476 that they're talking about. 19 It's not your book. It's a different page. 20 THE "WITNESS: Read the paragraph? 21 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 22 Q Please. 23 A "Unlike the user of morphine whose drives are usually 24 decreased, the user of CNS sympathomimetics is hyperactive 25 and during a tcxic episode may act in response to 71
1 persecutory delusions. Some individuals seem able to use 2 the drug for months or years without developing a toxic > t 3 paranoid syndrome. Yet, such symptoms can develop in the 4 course of a single run." 5 Q All right. Now, would you turn to Page 577, the next 6 page. On the left-hand side in the paragraph entitled 7 "Acute Toxicity." The first sentence in that paragraph — 8 could you' read that sentence out loud, please? I 9 A "Because tolerance develops to the hyperthermic and 10 cardiovascular effects of amphetamine, acute intoxication 11 is more likely to occur in the neophyte." j2 Q All right. Now, "hyperthermic" means a feeling of 13 chilliness and cold? e» 14 A No. 15 Q What does it mean? 16 A It means your temperature is above normal. 17 Q All right. Now, "neophyte" would be someone who is IS not someone who has taken the particular drug a lot? 19 A A person new to the use of the drug. 20 Q And in this context new to the drug. 21 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object to the 22 question. It calls for speculation on the part of this 23 witness as to what this author meant by the word "neophyte." 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 MR. KORNSTEIN: Okay. 72
1 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 2 Q Wow, in "Fatal Vision," the passages that discuss i 3 Eskatrol as a possible explanation of what happened, 4 Mr. McGinniss does not go into all the things that we have 5 discussed so far this morning; does he? 6 A "Fatal Vision" does not discuss everything we've 7 discussed this morning, no. 8 Q That's right. And there were other things that we 9 discussed this morning in the two references, the PDR from 10 1977 and the Goodman and Gilman, that he could have put in 11 the book that would have increased the emphasis on Eskatrol j2 as a possible explanation; isn't that correct? 13 MR. BOSTWICK: Obj ection. Argumentative. ft© 14 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer. 15 THE WITNESS: It would be hard for me to 16 figure out a way where he could twist any possible use of 17 amphetamines more than he did in the book. Is that 18 responsive to your question? 19 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 20 Q I don't think so. But if your answer is no — 21 THE COURT: I consider-that a response. 22 MR- KORNSTEIN: All right. 23 Q Now, isn't it true that by speculating that Eskatrol 24 was a possible explanation for what happened, Mr. McGinniss 25 was giving a sympathetic interpretation of the events that 73 1 night, by which I mean that if the speculation were correct, J* 2 it would mean, that your mental state that night was 3 distorted by the effects of the drug, and therefore, perhaps 4 had less mental responsibility for what happened? 5 MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question as being I 6 vague and ambiguous. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. 8 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 9 Q Again, with Gocdman and Gilman on Page 556, do you see 10 the passage in the first column just above the heading 11 '"Tolerance and Toxicity," at the end of the paragraph above 12 that, beginning, "Most observers ..." 13 A Yes. ft© 14 Q Would you read that sentence out loud? 15 A "Most observers have noted considerable psychopathology 16 in compulsive amphetamine users and their families , which 17 appear to have antedated the drug use." 18 Q All right. Now, you mentioned that in letters to 19 Mr. McGinniss and in tapes, and you discussed some of your 20 brother's problems; is that correct? 21 A Yes, that's correct. 22 Q And was your brother present in Raleigh for the trial? 23 A I believe Jay arrived for the last — my memory is 24 for the last two or three days of the trial. 25 Q And he met Mr. McGinniss? 74
1 A I believe he did. 2 Q And in your communications with Mr. McGinniss, either f 3 by way of letter or by way of tape, did you inform 4 Mr. McGinniss about any violent episodes in Jay's life?
5 A Yes, I did. 6 Q And would you tell us what those were, that you 7 informed Mr. McGinniss about? 8 A I believe — my recall is that I informed him of an 9 episode where Jay had been on a what was later — what I
10 later determined to be one of these so-called "runs" for a
tl considerable period of time where he had been taking a dose of some sort of amphetamine over weeks and weeks, and 12
13 staying up for 72- and 96-hour stretches. And he says that ie 14 a bartender gave him an unknown drug which caused a, quote, 15 "Bad trip," unquote.
16 The episode that I described to Mr. McGinniss was an episode whereby he became acutely paranoid and i 17 18 thought that the TV was talking to him. And he had to be
19 put in restraints and eventually, I believe, the police
20 took him to a hospital where he was treated.
21 Q How, did you ever — didn't you tell Mr. McGinniss E 22 about an incident where your brother had to be taken away 23 after using violence on your mother?
24 A No. I 25 Q You don't recall that?
I I 75 1 A I think that's a mischaracterization of what I told 2 him. - r I 3 Q You don't recall stating that in the tapes? About him 4 hitting or knocking down your mother in 1969? i 5 A I believe I said that it was an inadvertent knocking 6 down of my mother while he was being handcuffed by the 7 police.
8 Q And do you recall saying in any of the letters or tapes 9 to Mr. McGinniss about any connections of your brother with 10 loan sharks? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What did you tell Mr. McGinniss about that? 13 A That I had received a disturbing phone call from my to 14 mom in which — my recollection is — someone was asking 15 for a considerable sum of money that Jay apparently had 16 spent in Las Vegas. I 17 Q Did you ever use the term "Mafia" in the letters to 18 Mr. McGinniss about your brother? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And what did you say about that? 21 A I said that he hung around with — I believe one of 22 the terms I used was "Fringe-type people" and that he 23 associated with a large group of Italians who hated certain 24 restaurants in Brooklyn. And that he liked to fancy himself I 25 as a hanger-on. 76
.* i Q Well, didn't you use the phrase that he was on the 2 fringe of the Mafia? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And didn't you, in fact, tell similar things to CID 5 investigators in 1970? 6 A I believe so, yes. 7 Q And to Dr. Sadoff as well? 8 A I don't recall that — saying it to Dr. Sadoff. I may 9 have. 10 Q Isn't it also true that your brother was incarcerated n at Terminal Island for a period of time for making threats
! 12 of violence to Government officials, arising out of this 13 case? to 14 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor. 15 Irrelevant. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. i 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MR. KORNSTEIN; i 19 0_ How long was he incarcerated? E 20 A I believe about nine months. 11 Q And he pled guilty to that charge? 22 A To be honest, I'm not sure. 23 Q And do you know what the charge was for? 24 A Yes. 25 Q What was it?
I 77 1 A He wrote a letter to the Secretary of the Army saying, .* 2 that he would drag him through the streets of Washington i 3 unless they gave me illegally withheld FOIA material that 4 they had been keeping for about four years at that time, 5 that was due me four years earlier. 6 Q Isn't it also true that he had written letters, which 7 were part of the charges against him, to the Attorney 8 General of the United States and the Solicitor General of 9 the United States, threatening to cut them up in little 10 pieces'? 11 A I have not seen that communication, if that exists. 12 Q And you mentioned yesterday your sister, Judy Alvey? 13 A That's right. B* 14 Q And, I think it was on one of the tape selections, do 15 you recall writing or putting on tape anything else about 16 her to Mr. McGinniss? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do you recall saying to Mr. McGinniss on one of the 19 tapes. Exhibit 424, that she exhibits, quote, "neurotic Z0 behavior because of her instability," close quote? 21 A I don't recall saying that. 22 Q Perhaps we should show you the transcript. Exhibit 424, 23 Page 8 - E 24 MR. KORNSTEIN: May I approach the witness, your 25 Honor?
1 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 BY Mlf. KORNSTEIN: I 3 Q Do you see the underlined part?
4 A Yes, 1 do. 5 Q And did I accurately recite the words you used? 6 A Yes, you did. 7 Q Now, are you aware that — would you turn to Pages 260 8 and 261 in the book, Exhibit 402. Starting at the bottom 9 of the left-hand side on Page 260 and then going up through 10 the first paragraph on Page 261; would you read those 11 paragraphs out loud, starting with, "According to the 12 agent ..."? 13 A "According to the agent, the sister had described 14 MacDonald as, quote, 'a perfectionist who insisted that 15 things in the home be maintained to his standards by his 16 wife. This caused some arguments,' close quotes, the agent 1 17 wrote, quote, 'and on occasion he would have outbursts of 18 temper if things were not as he desired.' Close quotes. E 19 Continue? E 20 Q Yes, please. 21 A "The last paragraph stated, quote: 'At one point in 22 the interview, she was asked if she thought her brother 23 Jeffrey was capable of killing someone. She hesitated and 24 after some thought responded that although she does not 25 believe he did kill his family she felt he was capable of 79
1 killing if he were provoked.1 Close quotes.
2 Q Now, your sister was a person that you described
3 yesterday as someone with great insight and judgment; isn't
4 that correct?
5 A I don't believe that's correct.
6 Q Do you recall saying that she had — she was a good
7 judge of character?
8 A I'm not sure I said that.
9 Q Do you recall what you said along those lines?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What did you say?
12 A That she was perceptive.
13 Q All right. And you were aware that she did have an
14 interview with the CID agent in Schenectady on May 7th, 1970?
15 A I am aware an interview took place, yes.
16 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, this is a convenient
17 spot to break, or I could go on.
18 THE COURT: I'd•like to keep going for a while.
19 MR. KORNSTEIN: Fine.
20 Q On your direct testimony you denied ever hitting
21 Colette; remember that?
22 A Yes, that's true.
23 Q And you said that Colette's best friend from school
24 was a woman named June Desser?
25 A I would characterize her as her best friend, yes. 80
Q Would you turn to Page 256 in the book. 1 2 A ;(Complies. ) <• a Q 'Now, the second full paragraph, beginning, "Just one 4 time.-.," would you read that paragraph out loud? 5 A "just one time, I remember, he hit Colette. It was 6 such a long time ago. We were maybe seventeen, sixteen. 7 I think it was at my house — my mother's house at the 8 time — and 1 just remember him reaching out and giving her 9 a slap, and she was crying and got all upset over it and 10 stuff, but that — it's so blank. It's not that vivid that n I can say what they were talking about, but it sticks in 12 my mind, the fact that he did." 13 Q How, the person who made those remarks is identified in the book on the page before. Page 255, as "one woman who, * 14 15 since childhood, had been a particularly close friend of 16 Colette's." 17 Are .you aware that the person who made that statement 18 to the CID was June Desser? 19 A That made which statement? The statement on the 20 following page?
21 Q Yes. 22 A I have no knowledge about that. 23 Q Did you know that June Desser's married name.is Reich? 24 June Desser-Reich? 25 A Yes. I 1 Q D o you know that she met with the CID on February 27th, 2 1971?- f i 3 A I have no knowledge of that. 4 Q When you were 16 or 17 years old and you knew both 5 Colette and June Desser-Reich — June Desser at that time — 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q You don't know of any reason why she would make up a B story about you striking Colette; do you? 9 A No.
10 Q Now, at the time of the murders, February 17th, 1970, 11 you had several guns in the house; didn't you? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q You had a lever-action .30-'30 rifle? I* 14 A Yes. 15 Q You had a .22?
16 A If you say so. I don't have recall of a .22. 17 Q "Well, do you recall testifying to that to the Grand 18 Jury that you had a .22?
19 A I don't have recall at this time, no.
20 Q Well, do you recall having a 6.5 mm Italian rifle? 21 A I had one for some time. I don't know if it was in I 22 the house. It may have been. 23 Q And didn't you also have an old British .303 Army 24 Special? 25 A Yes - I 82 \ Q And didn't you have ammunition for all these rifles 2 and guns? r J 3 A I'm not sure. 4 Q Would it refresh your recollection if I read from your 5 Grand Jury transcript of August 1974 on this subject? 6 A Yes. 7 Q On Page 216 — 8 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, could we ask that 9 the witness be shown the document rather than be read to, 10 to refresh his recollection? 11 THE COURT: I don't know what good it will do 12 to show him, but, yes, if you want to. 13 MR. BOSTWICK: There may be something in context * 14 before or after what he's reading that might help. 15 THE COURT: All right. Show the witness the 16 portion of the Grand Jury transcript to which you refer. 17 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 18 Q Near the bottom third of the page. 19 A Yes, I see that. 20 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or 21 not you had the lever-action .30-'30, and the .22, and the B 22 6.5 mm Italian rifle? 23 A No. 24 Q But you did testify to the Grand Jury that you had 25 them? I 83
A No. It says I probably had a .22; it doesn't say I I i f 2 had a-.22. 3 Q All right- And you don't recall any differently now. 4 You probab — is your testimony still that you probably had
5 one, or you don't remember? 6 A I don't really recall. I had a .22 for some time. It 7 may have been in the gun box, yes. 8 Q And do you also recall now whether or not you testified I 9 to the Grand Jury that you had ammunition for those 10 weapons? 11 A May I turn the page? 12 Q It's not in that volume. It's in a different volume. 13 A I don't recall that testimony, no. B* 14 MR. KORNSTEIH: Your Honor, may I approach the 15 witness to show him? 16 THE COURT; Yes. I 17 MR. KORNSTEIN: This is from Volume II, Page 38, 18 starting at Line 18, I believe it is. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I see that. 20 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
I 21 Q And does that refresh your recollection as to whether 22 you had ammunition for those weapons? 23 A No. 24 Q And did you testify that you probably had ammunition 25 for those weapons? 84
1 A There was probably some. 2 Q And at the bottom of the page carrying over to the a next page, does that refresh your recollection as to 4 whether or not you had the old British .303 Army Special?
5 A Yes. 6 Q And did you — 7 A I presume so, since the words say that.
8 Q All right. Now, is that a handgun or a rifle? The 9 Army Special? 10 A That is a — the British rifle? 11 Q Yes. 12 A That's a rifle. 13 Q Now, do you recall being asked at the Grand Jury why 14 you had these guns, and your answer being, well, you thought * 15 it was the normal American thing to do? 16 A I don't recall saying that. 17 Q All right. Do you recall telling the Grand Jury that 18 sometimes you think about bringing guns into trials 19 involving drug people? 20 A I'm sorry. Could you repeat that? I 21 Q Do you recall telling the Grand Jury that you sometimes 22 think about bringing guns into trials involving drug 23 people? 24 A I don't recall that, no. 25 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I retrieve one I I 85 I 1 of the volumes to give a citation? 2 - THE COURT: Yes. r 3 ' MR. KORNSTEIN: May I show the witness Pages 187 4 and 188 from the first volume of his testimony? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 7 Q 187 and 188. 8 A Yes, I've seen that. 9 Q Does that refresh your recollection about what you told 10 the Grand Jury on that subject? 11 A No. 12 Q No, that it doesn't refresh your recollection; or no, 13 you didn't say that? 14 A It doesn't refresh my recollection. 15 Q Well, do you recall ever thinking about bringing guns i 16 into trials ivolving drug people? 17 A I don't believe so. I can't recollect any. 18 Q Would you read the relevant portion of your testimony i 19 to the Grand Jury? 20 THE COURT: Why don't you do that? 21 MR. KORNSTEIN: May I approach to get it back? 22 THE COURT: Yes. And then we'll take our 23 recess after you do that. 24 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 25 Q 187 and 188 of Volume I, August 1974. Okay: 86
I 1 "Q "What crosses your mind? 2 2A HOW can I work so goddamned hard saving an f i 3 addict's life for overdose. "What the hell do I care? 4 "Q Does it cross your mind that perhaps you should 5 do them in instead of — 6 "A "Not specifically do them in. 7 "Q — helping them? S "A No, not specifically do them in. It crosses my 9 mind, yes. Why the hell do I break my butt, and break 10 my nurses' butts, and the whole emergency room, to 11 save this creep who's got $20,000 — $10,000 cash in 12 his pocket from a recent sale; and he shoots up with 13 some fresh heroin, and he dies, and I resuscitate him? 14 I* What the hell do I do that for? But I always do it, 15 and I've thought about it. I always do it. My nurses 16 think I'm a good physician. And then I think I carry 17 it to the extreme. 18 "What would I do if I had to testify in a trial 19 against these people? Would I sneak a gun in and 20 shoot them? 21 "Q Well, you know yourself best. Do you think you 22 would? 23 "A Probably not. 24 "Q But at least you think about it? 25 "A Sure. Wouldn't you? 1 "Q And you might come in with a gun in your pocket, 2 whether you used it .or not? I* 3 •"A Sure." 4 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether you 5 gave' that testimony to the Grand Jury? 6 A No, I'm afraid it doesn't. 7 THE COURT: All right. We'll take our noon 8 recess, ladies _and gentlemen. We'11 reconvene'at 1:30. 9 Remember the admonition. TO THE CLERK: All rise. This court is in recess II until 1:30. 12 (Noon recess.) 13 Be 14 15 16 I certify that the foregoing is a true and correct 17 transcript of proceedings had on the record in the 18 above-entitled matter. 19 20
21 Official Court Reporter Date 22 23 24 25 i IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA 3 4 HONORABLE WILLIAM J. REA, JUDGE PRESIDING 5 6 DR. JEFFREY R. MACDONALD, 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. No. CV 84-617G-WJR 9 JOE McGINNISS, 10 Defendant. 11 12 13 14 REPORTER'S PARTIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS to 15 Los Angeles, California E 16 Thursday, July 30, 1987 17 P.M. SESSION 18 19 20 21 22 Sherrill Boutte, CSR Official Court Reporter 23 402 United States Courthouse 312 North Spring Street 24 Los Angeles, California 90012 (213) 613-1381 25 r- i
2 APPEARANCES
3
4 ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFF: 5
6 BOSTWICK 6 ACKERMAN BY: GARY L. BOSTWICK 7 JO-ANN HORN 100 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 1000 8 Santa Monica, California 90401 (213) 395-5372 9
10
11 ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT:
12 KORNSTEIH, VEISZ £ Y7EXLER 13 BY: DANIEL J. KORNSTEIN E MARK PLATT 14 757 Third Avenue New York, New York 10017 Be 15 (212) 418-8600 i 16 17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 i
2 INDEX <• 3
4 WITNESSES
5
6 PLAINTIFF'S WITNESS: DIRECT. CROSS REDIRECT' RE-CROSS
7 MAC DONALD, JEFFREY R.
8
9
10
11
12 EXHIBITS 1 13 ^ i
14 '' Be FOR • IN' 15 •EXHIBIT IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE
16 ' - '' • 160 100 100
17 161 109
18 162 122 123
19 163 137 138
20 138 180
21
22 RF.POP-.TKD BY:
23 SHERRILL BOUTTE Pages 88 -- 143
24 KATHLEEN J. HAALAND 144 -- 200
2S ** •
I 88
1 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; THURSDAY, JULY 30, 1987; 1:30 P.M.
2
a ' (In the presence of the jury:)
4 THE COURT; All right. You may proceed.
5 GROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)
6 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
7 Q Before we broke for lunch, we were talking about
S certain guns in your home on Fort Bragg in February of 1970
9 and you weren't sure of whether you actually had those
10 guns there; is that correct?
11 A No.
12 Q You are sure you .had all four guns there?
13 A No, I wasn't sure that I — I didn't recall when I t* 14 had the .22; but the other guns I do recall having had 15 there.
16 Q Well, do you recall on one of the tapes to
17 Mr. McGinniss saying that you had the .22 there?
18 A No, I don't recall that now.
19 Q Would it refresh your recollection to look at it?
20 A It may.
21 MR. KORNSTEIN: What I'd like to do now is show
22 Exhibit 442 to the witness, one paragraph from it that may
23 refresh his recollection.
24 THE COURT: Very well, you may.
25 ///// 39
BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
2 Q £>oes the paragraph near the top of the page refresh 3 your recollection as to whether or not you had. the .22 4 there as well?
5 A I doesn't refresh my recollection. The words say that 6 it was there.'
7 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I retrieve it?
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
10 Q When you were at Fort Bragg, you worked out with the
11 post boxing team or club?
12 A Yes, 1 did.
13 Q Isn't that risky for a surgeon who depends on his
14 hands? to 15 A Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "risky".
16 Q Could your hands be damaged?
17 A Certainly, in boxing you could damage your hands, yes.
18 Q Do you know other surgeons who boxed with boxing
19 teams on Army bases?
10 THE COURT: Wait just a minute.
21 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object to the
22 question as mischaracterizing the testimony of this witness
23 or — and it mischaracterizes evidence in asking
24 Dr, MacDonald "any other surgeon."
25 THE COURT: Yes. There is no fact or proof that I 90
1 he was a surgeon. I didn't hear that. Maybe I missed 2 something. rf* i 3 BY MR". KORNSTEIN: 4 Q Were you a surgeon at the time you were in the Army? 5 A My title was Group Surgeon for the Special Forces 6 Group at one point.
7 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I then have the 8 same question?
9 THE COURT: All right. But first of all, 10 define what a group surgeon is in the Army's eyes. n THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. In the Army's 12 eyes a group surgeon was the physician in charge of a — 13 a particular Special Forces group and all the medical 14 training therein. It did not have to be a what lay people 15 refer to as a surgeon; that's a general surgeon. It could I 16 be any physician whose title became Group Surgeon. 17 THE COURT: So hypothetically, if you were an 18 internist practicing internal medicine, you'd be given that 19 same title? 20 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 23 Q Well, did you know any other doctors in the Army who 24 were working out with the boxing team? . 25 A I don't recall any, no. 91
I 1 Q Now, do you recall on one of the tapes to Mr. McGinniss 2 comparing your aggressiveness to your brother Jay's r J 3 aggressiveness? 4 A I believe I did do that at one time, yes. 5 Q And didn't you say that on a scale of aggressiveness 6 Jay was a 7 and you were a 9.5, on a scale of 1 to 10? 7 A In — I think that's relative to a personality style 8 and communication, and things like that, yes. I 9 Q And didn't you say just after you mentioned that 10 aggressiveness scale, quote, "1 was in several fights in 11 high school"? 12 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, I'd like to interpose 13 an objection unless we can find out where this is, on what it 14 exhibit. 15 MR. KORNSTEIN: Exhibit 424, Page 8, in the 16 transcript. 17 THE COURT-. All right. What's your answer to 18 that? 19 THE WITNESS: I believe my answer is that I may 20 have told that to Joe McGinniss. If I understood the 21 question correctly. 22 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 23 Q Is it true? 24 A Is what true? 25 Q Were you in several fights in high school? 1 92
1 A Yes.
2 Q Those are fist fights? i 3 A Yes. 4 Q Now, do you remember the name of Colette's boyfriend 5 in high school? 6 A Dean Chamberlain.
7 Q And you had some fights with him in high school; didn't 8 you •> 9 A I believe so, yes.
10 Q More than one; isn't that correct? 11 A The one I recall, he was beating up some little kid. 12 MR. KORNSTEIN: Move to strike. 13 THE COURT; All right. Was there more than one? Be 14 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to recall that, your IS Honor. I can't recall. 16 BY MR- KORNSTEIN:
17 Q Now, on•the tape to Mr. McGinniss didn't you say that 18 you had had a number of tussles with Dean Chamberlain over 19 the years? 20 A I may have said that.
21 Q And didn't you say that you at one point ran off a 22 bus , knocked him down, and hit him a couple of times, or 23 something? 24 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, may we have a
25 ref arence? 93
I i MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes, it's Tape That's r 2 Exhibit 431, Page 15. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe there's some 4 reference about snow banks or snowballs, or something. 5 BY MR. KORNSTEIN; 6 Q And then you also referred on the same page to another 7 fight with Dean Chamberlain; didn't you? 8 A I can't recall. 9 Q Were you at that time jealous of his seeing Colette? 10 A I'm sorry. At what time? IT Q At the time of the fights. 12 A I can't recall when the fights were. 13 Q Okay. On your direct examination you made a reference i* 14 to your nose being broken four times. And you said it was 15 not in high school. Was your nose broken four times? 16 A I believe at least four times, yes. 17 Q And when did that occur? 18 A When did they occur? 19 Q Yes. 20 A The one time was a — I was about 11 or 12. I was
21 wrestling with a neighbor. 22 Q And when was the other three occasions? 23 A One was during a football game with a neighboring 24 catholic high school. A tackle hit me; he had a cast on 25 his wrist. 94
1 Q And the other two? 2 A One was off of a diving board. I dove into the pool i* i 3 without my arms in front of me. 4 Q And the other one, the last one? 5 A The fourth one I can't recall. I can't recall at this 6 time. It may have been — it may have been in the boxing E 7 club at Princeton, but I'm not sure of that. 8 Q Now, you remember you had a summer job in college 9 driving a cab on occasion? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And do you remember sometimes there were either rival 12 cab companies that would get into altercations with your 13 people? Be 14 A Yes. That's true. 15 Q And there were some fights about that? i 16 A With the rival cab companies? 17 Q Uh-huh. 18 A There may have been. I can't recall any right now; 19 but there may have been. 20 Q Well, do you recall in one of your tapes to 21 Mr. McGinniss talking about real physical attacks involving 22 the rival cab companies? 23 A' I don't have a recollection of that, no. 24 Q if i showed you the tape, might it refresh your 25 recollection? i 95
A Yes.
2 MR. KORNSTEIN: Exhibit 425. Your Honor, may
3 I approach the witness?
4 THE COURT: You may.
5 MR. KORNSTEIN: The last page on Exhibit 425.
6 Your Honor, I understand that the witness does have it
7 available to him. If you could turn to Exhibit 425, the
8 last page.
9 MR. BQSTWICK: I'm not sure it's in that book
10 that's right in front of you, but it is in an exhibit book.
11 And then Mr. Kornstein doesn't have to walk around.
12 THE COURT:- All right. Would you check, Marva,
13 to see if you have it. to 14 THE CLERK: 425?
15 MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes.
16 THE CLERK: 425 before the witness.
17 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
18 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
19 Q The last page of Exhibit 425.
20 A All right. i 21 Q Do you see the last three words?
22 A Yes, I do.
23 Q You mentioned there real physical attack; does that
24 refresh your recollection?
25 A If you could just give me a moment to find out what I 96
1 was talking about.
2 Yesf I see that. f i a Q How old were you at the time? 4 A When I made the tape or when — 5 Q No. When this real physical attack occurred. 6 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object to the 7 question as mischaracterizing the exhibit. 8 THE CODRT: Yes. I don't think he said there 9 was a physical attack which occurred. The tape says "got 10 to.the point that of real physical attack." 11 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: U Q Did a real physical attack occur? 13 A I think — I think an episode evolved that I'm
*• 14 referring to here. I'm not sure I would characterize it as IS a physical attack. 16 Q What happened? 17 A Two cab drivers in cabs pushed a cab from the other 18 company into the ocean. 19 Q Were you involved in that? 20 A No.
21 Q And that was the physical attack you were referring to? 22 A That's the only thing I can think of as I read this 23 sentence. 24 Q Now, you remember being involved in gang fights in 25 junior high school? 97
1 A Being involved? 2 Q les. f r 3 A I wouldn't really characterize it that way. 4 Q Well, didn't you in one of the tapes to Mr. McGinniss S say that you were involved in two or three such gang 6 fights? Tape 9, which is Exhibit 432 at Page 4. 7 THE CLERK: 432 before the witness. 8 THE WITNESS; Thank you. 9 BY MR. KORNSTEIH: 10 Q Page 4 of that exhibit. About midway down the page. 11 A Yes, I see that. 12 Q Does that refresh your recollection about whether you 13 were involved in two or three such gang fights? 14 f A Not as you're characterizing it, no. 15 Q Doesn't the transcript say after talking about gang 16 fights, quote, "I was not really part of that, although I 17 was involved in two or three of them with Tommy Gorman who 18 later became a policeman"? 19 A But that was referring to basically being a spectator 20 as cars from other towns came into our town to a recreation 21 center. 22 Q All right. So when you wrote that to Mr. McGinniss, 23 after describing gang fights and you said, I was involved 24 in two or three of them, well, you meant you were a 25 spectator? That was what you were referring to about your 98
i invoIvement ? f 2 A T think that my reference there is really to the fact 3 that 1 was present when these episodes occurred. 4 Q And that's how you used the word "involved"? That you 5 were present, watching and not participating; is that 6 correct? 7 A Yes, I guess so. 8 Q Pine. Do you remember when you were — during your 9 internship year at Columbia having a pushing match with a 10 surgeon, a chief surgeon, during open-heart surgery? 11 A I wouldn't characterize it as a pushing match. 12 Q Weren't you and he engaged in a (sic) elbowing match 13 with each other while the patient was on the operating to t4 table?
15 A There was a — there was basically a confrontation, i 16 yes.
17 Q It was a physical confrontation, not just verbal; 18 wasn't it? 19 A I wouldn't characterize it that way. It was more a 20 turf confrontation.
21. Q In the tape to Mr. McGinniss, didn't you describe how 22 each of you were pushing each other? 23 A Well, his elbow hit me, yes. 24 Q And didn't your elbow hit him back? 25 A It had to for me to stay upright. 99
1 Q And weren't you in the tape to Mr. McGinniss describing 2 that elbowing and jocking for position while the patient's i 3 on the operating table? 4 A I believe I was describing the episode, yes. 5 Q Now, in the fall of 1969, do you recall an incident 6 where you went to a bar in Greenwich Village and punched 7 somebody? S A Yes, I do. 9 Q Did you tell Mr. McGinniss about that? 10 A Yes, X did. 11 Q That was the fall of 1969? that was after you were in 12 the Army. 13 A It was while I was in the Army, right. 8© 14 Q Right. And do you remember writing a letter to 15 Mr. McGinniss about that? 16 A I don't have a specific recollection right now. I may 17 have done that. 18 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I approach the 19 witness to show the letter? 20 THE COURT: Yes. Show it to Mr. Bostwick first. 21 MR. BOSTWICK: Thank you, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: You may. What is the date of the 23 letter that you handed him? 24 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, it says late 25 Saturday, early Sunday. The witness will be able to put a 100
1 year and month on it. 2 Z THE WITNESS: It says late Sunday, early Monday, i 3 and I*believe it was in probably September 1979, your 4 Honor. 5 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 6 Q Now, do you recognize the letter? 7 A Yes, I do. 8 Q And is it a letter that you wrote to Mr. McGinniss? 9 A Yes, it is.
10 Q And you mailed it to him? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, we would move it 13 into evidence. to 14 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, the only objection 15 we have is, I believe we do not have a copy and were never 16 provided a copy. 17 THE COURT: Well, let's see if we have — 18 MR. BOSTWICK: We just have. Never mind. 19 THE COURT: All right. What number? 20 MR. KORNSTEIN: I believe it should be 160. 21 THE CLERK: 1-6-zero. 22 THE COURT: It will be marked Exhibit 1-6-0 and 23 will be received in evidence. 24 (Exhibit 16 0 received in evidence.}
2S ///// 101
i BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 2 Q Wow, would you read out loud the portion of the letter 3 that is in brackets on the first page -and then carrying 4 over to the second page? 5 A The part in brackets? 6 Q Yes. 7 A "He got fucked up on speed," parentheses, "(Whites) , 8 and then he said someone slipped him acid. Four policemen, 9 one straight-jacket, one broken wrist, one terrified
10 brother, one scared doctor, and one destroyed brain later. 11 Jay came down to earth as you see him. I bailed him out of
12 an insane asylum thinking he'd be okay. I was in my Green
13 Beret outfit. I then went down to some bar he worked at ee 14 in Greenwich Village, shaped like a triangle at an 15 intersection." Question mark, "?The Shortstop?" Question 16 mark, "and punched the shit out of some asshole who dealt 17 Whites." IS Q Thank you.
19 ME.. KORNSTEIN; May I retrieve it?
20 THE COURT: You may.
21 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
22 Q Do you remember when in 1969 this was?
23 A It would have been in the fall of 1969.
24 Q And how old were you at the time?
25 A How old was I? 102
1 Q Yes. About 26? 2 A Probably 26- Could have been 25, probably 26. i 3 Q And that was approximately four months before February 4 1970? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Isn't it true that shortly after February 17th, you 7 began sleeping with a 9 mm automatic pistol under your 8 pillow? 9 A After February 17th? 10 Q Yes. 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q And isn't it true that after February 17th, you were 13 involved in some — you actually were in some fist fights t* 14 and pushing matches in bars around Fayetteville near Fort 15 Bragg? 16 A Not in February. 17 Q After February. 18 A You mean like in the fall of 1970? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Yes. E 21 Q And on one such occasion you kicked a chair out from i 22 underneath somebody? 23 A I believe that happened. 24 Q Do you remember on one set of maneuvers staying up all
25 night and talking about guns? 103
1 THE COURT: Are you talking about Army
2 maneuvers ? i 3 MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes. 4 THE V7ITNESS; I don't have specific recall of 5 that, no. 6 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 7 Q Do you remember talking about it on one of the tapes 8 that you sent to Mr. McGinniss? 9 A Talking about Army maneuvers? 10 Q And staying up all night to talk about guns. 11 A I don't have a specific recollection of that u conversation, no. 13 Q Would you look at Exhibit 433, Page 15. 14 About the middle of the page, the line on the IS left-hand margin starts: Latest shotguns... 16 A I'm sorry. Is this about moonshiners? Am I in the 17 right area? IS Q Yes. 19 A Halfway down the page? 20 THE COURT: More .than that. 21 BY ME. KORNSTEIN: 22 Q A little bit past halfway. 23 A Yes, I see that. 24 Q All right. Do you see there where you say: We talked 25 about guns all night? E 104
A Yes, I do see that. 2 Q Bid you talk about guns all night with those people? I* i 3 A I would think that we were up most of the night sitting 4 around the camp fire, yes. 5 Q Talking about guns? 6 A Well, I was listening. The moonshiners and the Army 7 men were talking about the guns. 8 Q When you wrote we talked about guns, you meant I was 9 listening and they were talking? 10 A No, 1 think I meant we, as a group. 11 Q What kind of guns were you talking about? 12 A I don't recall. 13 Q Now, when you were at Fort Bragg, did you know someone Be 14 named Ron Harrison? 15 A Yes, I did. 16 Q He was a friend of yours? 17 A Yes, he was. IS .Q A good friend? e 19 A Well, I think at that time I classified him as a good 20 friend, yes. 21 Q In those days were you ranking your friends as you said 22 you did on direct examination about 1, 2, 3, 4, 5? Did you 23 do that then? 24 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection. Mischaracterizes the 25 witness' testimony. 105
1 THE COURT: Read it back. please, Sherrill 2 ^Record read.) < COURT: Sustained. 3 THE 4 MR. KORNSTEIN: All right
5 Q Lieutenant Harrison was in the Green Berets? 6 A Yes, he was.
7 Q And he was someone who came over to your house on a 8 re gular basis for dinner? 9 A I'm not sure it was regular. He had been to our louse 10 for dinner. It Q And on occasion he would.come over as many as thr ee 12 or four times a we ek to either talk or eat dinner with you 13 and your wife? ft© 14 A I'm not sure of the numbers. He stopped by the house 15 occasionally, yes. 16 Q Now, would you turn to Page 354 of the book. Exhibit I 17 402? 18 A (Complies.) 19 Q Now, toward the middle of the page, there is a line 20 that says: Tell us about Ron Harrison. 1 21 Now, this is — these are statements made by
22 Dr. Bronstein, Merrill Bronstein, the doctor that we 23 mentioned this morning. 24 Would you read to yourself the rest of that page and 25 the beginning of the next page. 106
i A From the middle of the page? 2 Q Yes. Beginning, "Tell us about Ron Harrison" to the 3 first paragraph on Page 355. 4 A Yes, I've read that. 5 Q Now, do you recall writing and tape to Mr. McGinniss 6 and describing Ron Harrison by saying, quote, "He wanted 7 to shoot 'people"? 8 A I do not recall saying that, no. I 9 Q Would you look at Tape 10, that's Exhibit 433, Page 11 10 Top of the page; the third line. 11 Do you see where you say he wanted to shoot people, 12 referring to Ron Harrison? 13 A Yes. This was in reference to after he had some 14 drinks. »• 15 Q All right. And the very next sentence, you say: "No 16 question about it, Ron was kind of an interesting guy." 17 Right after you talk about him wanting to shoot people. 18 Right?
19 A Yes, those words follow. 20 Q Now, Harrison was a violent man; wasn't he? I 21 A I have no direct knowledge of that. 22 Q Didn't you tell some of the investigators about 23 violent incidents that Harrison had told you about? E 24 A That — 25 Q That he had been involved in. 107
i A That Harrison had been involved in? 2 Q ¥es. f i 3 A I can't recall any at this time, no, I 4 Q Now, Harrison had been over your home on Saturday, 5 February 14th, 1970; isn't that correct? C A On February 14th? B 7 Q Yes. 8 A Yes, I believe he had been. E 9 Q And was he the last person, other than the immediate 10 members of your family — well, the last person outside 11 your family to see your entire family alive? Inside the 12 house? 13 A Except for the assailants. fie 14 Q And when you were in the hospital on February 17th, 15 wasn't he the first person that you asked to have come to 16 see you? 17 A Oh, I don't recall that. 18 Q You don't recall that? 19 A No, I have no recall for that. 20 Q Do you recall seeing him on February 17th? 21 A Yes, I saw Ron Harrison that day. 22 Q About what time? 23 A I have no idea. 24 Q Now, when Harrison was over your house on Saturday, 25 February 14th, you remember that you were talking about and
I 108
i reading together Esquire magazine? 2 A Ho. We weren't reading it together. i 3 Q Were you talking about it? 4 A We had some conversation about Esguire, yes. 5 Q All right. Is this the issue of Esquire that you were 6 talking about at that time, not saying that it was the 7 identical issue, but it was the issue from that month. 8 Do you have to look at it more closely? 9 A I would have to see if a particular article is in it 10 to find out.
11 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I approach? 12 THE"COURT: Yes.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe this is the issue e* 14 of Esquire. 15 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, we would move that 16 into evidence as Exhibit 161. 17 THE COURT: Any particular part, or just the IS whole?
19 MR. KORNSTEIN: I think it's easier if it's 20 just the whole magazine as being the issue that they were 21 discussing.
22 THE COURT: What part of the magazine are you 23 interested in? 24 MR. KORNSTEIN: There is a series of articles 25 on — from the title page "Evil in California" dealing with 109
I i satanic rites, witchcraft, the Sharon Tate murders, and
2 other-related topics. r 3 • MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor. 4 Relevance. 5 THE COURT: All right. I will have to hear 6 your offer out of the presence of the jury. We * 11 keep it 7 — retain it for identification only at this time. This 8 will be 1 — Exhibit 161? 9 MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes, your Honor.
to THE COURT: All right. That will be marked 11 for identification only as of now. u (Exhibit 161 marked for identification only.) 13 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 14 Q Now, on that Saturday afternoon, February 14th, didn't •• 15 you and Lieutenant Harrison discuss some of those articles 16 in the Esquire magazine? 17 A I believe we did, yes. 18 Q And did I correct — didn't I correctly state the 19 subject of those articles as involving "Evil in California," 20 witchcraft, satanic cult, and the Sharon Tate murders? 21 A The recall that I have of the conversations between 22 Lieutenant Harrison and myself was about a woman copulating 23 with a black swan, something to that effect. 24 Q Do you recall the articles I'm talking about being in 25 that issue? no I 1 • MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, we're going to object 2 to any; reference to anything that' s in the exhibit unless i 3 it's been admitted into evidence first. 4 THE COURT: Come to the side bar. 5 May I see the article? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 7 (At the side bar:) 8 MR. KORNSTEIN: The whole series of articles, 9 but the one where they talk about the Sharon Tate murders 10 involves the Charlie Manson family. The offer of proof 11 that I'11 make is this: That some of the events of 12 February 17th, the "Kill the pigs" or "Pigs" on the wall 13 are strikingly similar to some of the events described in B* 14 the magazine portrayal. And one of the things that we're 15 trying to develop here, since he maintains his innocence — 16 and I have to try to attack his credibility — is to show 17 some relationship between his meeting with this fellow 18 Ron Harrison and with what they were doing that day. 19 And these are things that he has spontaneously 20 testified to — he has spontaneously testified about these 21 in other investigations. He brought it up to his 22 psychiatrist who told the CID. This is not a new subject 23 and it is quite relevant to the full portrait of what 24 happened here. 25 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, I think this is just in 1 an attempt to take them back into the criminal trial on this 2 issue.- I don't understand what relevance this has to the 3 book or to the breach of contract claims or even the 4 demands as 1 understand. 5 I understand that — 6 THE COURT: You insisted that he be allowed to 7 profess his innocence, and so this is just his rebuttal to 8 that. I've let you do that, now am I supposed to keep him 9 from bringing in evidence that might bear upon that? 10 I mean you've injected it into the case, and as to quote 11 Mr. Kornstein a few times, are we going to try this criminal 12 case all over again? Well, I said no, we* re not. 13 But nevertheless, I have let it in at your 14 request, that is, his statement that he is innocent and he to 15 maintains his innocence as of now. So — 16 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, I have one thing to 17 say to that. 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. BOSTWICK: And that is that we asked to be 20 able to do that so that he would be able to explain his 21 state of mind even today. I understand that Mr. Kornstein 22 ought to be able to attack anything that has to do with 23 things that are included in the book. 24 THE COURT: Doesn't this bear upon his state of 25 mind if he's discussing this? How much in advance of the 112
1 day — 2 ~ MR. KORNSTEIN: He discusses this on Saturday,
3 the murders are on Monday night. 4 THE COURT; That certainly would bear upon his 5 state of mind 1 would think. If he's been spending some 6 time with somebody going over these things. I think it1s 7 admissible. Okay. 8 MR. KORNSTEIN: Thank you. 9 (Within the hearing of the jury:) 10 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed. 11 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 12 Q Now, do you recall telling Dr. Sadoff that you and 13 Ron Harrison had been discussing these articles? 14 A Again, my recall is that I — Ho, I don't recall saying 15 that to Dr. Sadoff. i 16 Q Did you say it to anybody during any of the criminal 17 investigations? 18 A My recall is about the — the only recall I have about 19 this is that I was discussing an article about Leda and 20 the black swan with Ron Harrison. I'm sure that has come 21 up in the criminal investigation and I've talked about that. 22 Q Do you recall at all reading or discussing with Ron 23 Harrison the articles about the Sharon Tate murders?
24 A No, I do not. 23 Q Have you read Dr. Sadoffs Grand Jury testimony? 113
i I'm not sure. f 2 Q It was one of those that was provided to you during 3 the Criminal trial; wasn't it?
4 A I don't believe so. 5 Q You don't believe so. How, do you recall you had an 6 interview with Dr. Sadoff and he had an interview statement, 7 wrote it up?
8 A I am unaware of the statement. I'm aware of the 9 interview.
10 Q In that interview, didn't you bring up without his
11 asking about the article on the Sharon Tate murders from
12 the Esquire magazine?
13 A Are we talking about the interview in 1970?
14 Q I believe so. to 15 A I have no recall of words that I said to Dr. Sadoff
16 then, no.
17 Q Perhaps I can find something to refresh your i 18 recollection. I'll come back to it. E 19 Have you ever read the article in that Esquire magazine 20 about the Sharon Tate murders?
21 A I don't have any recall of doing that.
22 Q None whatsoever; is that correct?
23 A I have no recall of doing that.
24 Q Are you aware of any similarities between the events 25 of February 17th and what happened to the — at the Sharon 114
1 Tate murders? 2 : MR. BOSTWICK: I object to the question on the f 3 grounds that it's vague, ambiguous, compound and not 4 relevant. 5 THE COURT; All right. 1 think maybe a 6 foundation will have to be laid about the Sharon Tate
1 murders — 8 BY ME. K0RNSTE1N: 9 Q Do you know anything about the Sharon — 10 THE COURT: — before you ask him for a 11 comparison. 12 BY MR. KORNSTEIN; 13 Q Do you know anything about the Sharon Tate murders? E£ 14 A I know they occurred. 15 Q And do you know that someone wrote PIG on the — at 16 those murders? i 17 MR. BOSTWICK: Tour Honor, I object to Counsel 18 making statements that are not in evidence and ask that 19 the jury be instructed that statements are not evidence. 20 MR. KORNSTEIN: I'll withdraw the question, 21 your Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. Rephrase it. 23 BY MR- KORNSTEIN; 24 Q Do you recall telling Dr. Sadoff that Ron Harrison was 25 a possible suspect, but that was ridiculous? 1 115 1 THE COURT: Suspect? 2 - MR- KORNSTEIN: Of the murders of February 17th. 3 • THE WITNESS-. You're asking me if I have recall 4 now of saying that to Dr. Sadoff? 5 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 6 Q Yes. 7 A No, I do not. 8 Q Do you recall — Exhibit 472, would you turn to that? 9 It's one of the new ones. It just came in a few days ago. 10 It's a letter dated September 18th, 1979, from yourself to 11 Mr. McGinniss? 12 THE CLERK: 472 before the witness. . 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. BQ 14 MR. BOSTWICK: Question: what is the number? 15 MR. KORNSTEIN: It's a letter dated September 16 13th — 471. Pardon me, 471. 17 THE CLERK: 471 before the witness. 18 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 19 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 20 Q DO you have that in front of y°u now? 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q What I'd like you to do is first read to yourself the 23 last two lines of the first page and then the first five 24 lines of the second page, first to yourself. 25 A How much on the second page? I'm sorry. i 116
i Q Just the first five lines, and stop after the word 2 "Texas-" t 3 A Yes, I see that. 4 Q Now, that refers to an incident when you came back to 5 your cell and you found a guard reading your mail; is that 6 right? 7 A Yeah. I'm trying to put in context, Mr. Kornstein. 8 Q Uh-huh. 9 A Yes, this would have been in solitary confinement in 10 Texarcana, yes. 11 Q And then you say: Funny how that boils your insides 12 so suddenly and furiously that you almost do something 13 stupid. Is that a feeling that you have experienced often? BS 14 A Under what conditions? 15 Q Under whatever conditions that boil your insides so 16 suddenly and furiously that you almost do something stupid. 17 A No, I wouldn't say that was a feeling I have often. 18 Q How many times have you had that feeling in your life? 19 A I can't recall. 20 Q More than once; right? 21 A Yes. I would say that feeling occurred more than once. 22 Q Something happens and makes you angry all in a rush 23 as you're describing here; isn't that right? 24 A If what you're asking is have I ever been angry, the 25 answer is yes.
L 117
1 Q Have you ever been angry as you describe it here where 2 it boils your insides so suddenly and furiously? i 3 A "i probably have been angry like that, yes. 4 Q That you almost do something stupid?
5 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm sorry r your Honor, I don't 6 understand the question. 7 THE COURT: What's the question? 8 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
9 Q You felt like that, too, as a reaction or the second
10 part of that feeling of anger and rage.
It A You're asking me for over my lifetime, have I ever been 12 angry? 13 Q Yes. I'm asking you have you ever been angry like you ft© 14 describe in this letter. Where your insides boil suddenly 15 and furiously. 16 A I think there — I'm trying to recall. I can recall 17 having been angry. I'm not sure I can categorize it with 18 the words that are expressed here. 19 Q Now, it was Ron Harrison who gave you the 9mm pistol 20 that you slept with under your pillow after; right? 21 A Yes, he loaned it to me. 22 Q Now, after the Supreme Court reversed the Fourth 23 circuit in 1982, you were rearrested by the FBI? 24 A Yes. 25 Q When you were rearrested .by FBI Agent Kevin Adderly, 118 1 didn't you have a .44 Magnum in your possession?
2 A Y;es, I believe I did. t 3 Q And didn't you have ammunition for it as well? 4 A I don't recall. E 5 Q Now, a -44 Magnum is, I think, one of the biggest, 6 most powerful handguns around; isn't it? 7 A Well, yes, it's a powerful handgun, yes. 8 Q What I'd like to show you is a portion of Dr. Sadoffs 9 Grand Jury transcript and see if that refreshes your 10 recollection as to whether or not you referred to the H Sharon Tate story in talking to him.
12 MS- KORNSTEIN: With the Court's permission? 13 THE COURT: Yes. to 14 THE WITNESS: I see what you're giving me, yes. 15 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 15 Q Does that refresh your recollection as to whether you 17 brought up the subject with Dr. Sadoff? 18 A No. 19 Q Does it refresh your recollection as to whether you 20 ever read the story about the Sharon Tate murders in
21 Esquire? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you ever see Dr. Sadoff's interview notes before 24 today? 25 A His interview notes? 119 1 Q Part of that is an excerpt from his interview notes. 2 A I don't believe so. f 3 Q You — his Grand Jury testimony was made available to 4 you during your trialj wasn't it? 5 A I have no recall of that. 6 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I retrieve it? 7 THE COURT: You may. 8 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, might we request 1 9 that we be given a copy of that whole transcript. I don't 10 believe we've got it in our possession. 11 THE COURT: Well, do you have a copy for him 12 or — 13 MR. KORNSTEIN: I don't know that we have a Be 14 clean copy. It has a lot of work product in preparation 15 for the case. Let me report back to the Court tomorrow on 16 that. 17 THE COURT: Very well. 18 BY MR. KORNSTEIH: 19 Q Now, do you recall in your letters and tapes to 20 Mr. McGinniss making certain comments about people involved 21 in the criminal case? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Including the prosecutors, the judge, your own 24 attorneys? 25 A Yes, I've done that. 120
Q Wouldn't you say that it's a pattern in your life J* 2 that you are extremely contemptuous of people over whom 3 you have no control? 4 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object to the 5 question as being argumentative. 6 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer. 7 THE WITNESS; You're asking me if I'm 8 contemptuous of people over whom I have no control? 9 BY MR. KORNSTETN: 70 Q Yes. 11 A I don't believe that's accurate. 12 Q Isn't it also true that you are contemptuous over 13 people whom you engage to do something for you with fie 14 unrealistic expectations; and then they fail, and you turn 15 on them?
i 16 MR. BOSTWICK: I object to the question as 17 being argumentative and compound, vague and ambiguous. 18 THE COURT: Sustained on the form of the 19 question. 20 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 21 Q Well, do you recall writing a letter to Joe McGinniss? 22 It bears the date October 16, in maybe 197 9, where you talk 23 about Bernie Segal? 24 A I recall writing letters to Joe McGinniss about 2S Bernie Segal. Whether it was October 16th or not I can't 121
i recall at this time. 2 f MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I approach? i 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, may we approach the 5 bench? 6 THE COURT: Concerning this exhibit? 7 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes, sir. 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 (Bench conference outside the hearing of the jury:) 10 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm only concerned about one n thing, your Honor; that is, that we have no copy of this 12 that I know of. And we asked for all of these letters on 13 discovery, and I haven't had a chance to read it or prepare 14 B9 for it one way or the other. 15 I don't think that we should slow down the trial 16 i necessarily for it, but until we had a chance to look at 17 it, I think that — and get a copy of it. There may have 18 been a discovery abuse here by not providing us the letter. 19 We don't have it. On the other hand, let me point out that 20 I don't represent that we also can't misplace things. 21 But I know that we don't have that one in this group. 22 MR. KORNSTEIN: It is my understanding that it 23 was previously produced. But I will withhold asking 24 questions about this document to avoid any possible problem. 25 I don't think it's — 122
1 MR. BOSTWICK: I don't think that's necessary
2 as loiig as we can have a copy of it by sometime this
3 evening.
4 THE COURT: Your - position is he may use it
5 provided he gives you a copy before we start tomorrow's —
6 MR- BOSTWICK: That's right.
7 THE COURT: — session?
8 MR. BOSTWICK: Yes, your Honor. I just wanted
9 to make sure that would be possible.
10 THE COURT: Very well.
11 MR. BOSTWICK: Thank you, your Honor.
12 (Within the hearing of the jury:)
13 THE COURT: Do you want to mark this as the next fie 14 numbered exhibit? 15 MR. KORNSTEIN; Yes, your Honor. I was going
16 to have the witness identify it first.
17 THE COURT: Well, let's mark it 162.
18 MR. KORNSTEIN: May I approach the Clerk?
19 THE COURT: Well, just put a 162 on it, then
20 lay your foundation; and then we'll receive it in evidence
21 and mark it later.
22 MR. KORNSTEIN: Now, may I approach the witness?
23 THE COURT: Yes.
24 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
25 Q Is that a letter you wrote? 123
i A Yes, it appears to be. 2 Q And when was it written? t 3 A 'it says 10-16. 4 Q Do you know what year? 5 A I have to make that from the context of the letter. 6 If I could just have a minute, 7 Q Uh-huh. 8 A This would be 1982.
9 Q Okay. 10 THE COURT: And it's written to Joe McGinniss?
11 THE WITNESS: Joe McGinniss. 12 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, we would'move it 13 into evidence. 14 THE COURT; It will be received. to 15 (Exhibit 162 received in evidence.)
16 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 17 Q Now, on the back page, you say that Bernie Segal is 18 quote, "truly pathological"? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 Q What did you mean by that? 21 A I meant that he had — I had heard that he had made 22 entreaties to a man in Washington to try to prevent my
23 transfer from one prison to another for a period of at least 24 several weeks; and I had just found out that — I believe 25 I had just found out that for those several weeks none of 124
1 the supposed entreaties to that person in Washington had
2 been made, and I now had to get another attorney to do the i 3 same work. 4 Q Do you recall sending a tape to Mr. McGinniss in which 5 you discussed Brian Murtagh? 6 A I'm sure I discussed Brian. Murtagh on tapes, yes. 7 Q Do you recall — now, Brian Murtagh was one of the 8 prosecutors? I 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you recall referring to him as a basically evil 11 person, dumb, ruthless, I think he'll stop at nothing, but 12 he doesn't hide it that well? 13 A I don't recall those exact words, but I may have said 14 that. to 15 Q Do you recall on another tape referring to him as a 16 snail spreading slime? 17 A I don't recall that. 18 Q Do you recall — 19 MR. BOSTWICK:; Sorry. Could we have references 20 to exhibits on these? 21 MR. KOKNSTEIN: Yes. That was the January 27th 22 tape, which I think is Tape Number 10, Exhibit 433. I 23 believe that's Page 1, but I'll doublecheck. 24 Q Do you also remember referring to Jim Blackburn on 25 those tapes? 125
i A Yes, I do. J* 2 Q Bo you recall saying that, quote, "1 think Blackburn is 3 essentially identical, except that he hides it a little 4 better. I think he's a face man, totally phony from the 5 word go." Remember saying that? 6 A Not those exact words. I expressed a feeling like 7 that, yes. 8 Q Now, Wade Smith was one of your defense lawyers, local I 9 counsel in Raleigh? . 10 A Yes. II Q And do you remember in one of your tapes to 12 Mr. McGinniss referring to him as a "candy .ass in his own 13 town"? m 14 A I think I did say that. 15 Q What do you mean by that? 16 A That he was afraid to buck Judge Dupree, that he let 17 Judge Dupree run all over him. 18 Q And do you remember referring to Judge Dupree in one 19 of your tapes as an "ominous villain"? 20 A Yes, I do recall saying that. 21 Q You went on to describe him as "This ominous figure, 22 appropriately dressed in black, looking like a decaying 23 person, cancer-ridden or something, like a boil that should 24 have burst." Remember saying that?
25 A I don't recall that. 126
i Q That was on the tape dated December 11th.
2 Bo you recall making some comments about Denny Iseman f i 3 on Tape 15?
4 A Not without hearing them or reviewing it.
5 Q Denny Iseman was also one of your defense lawyers? He
6 worked with Bernie Segal?
7 A Back in 1970.
. 8 Q He's the one who — there was some discussion about
9 yesterday whether he fell or was pushed to the ground.
10 A Yes, that's right.
11 Q Do you recall referring to him, quote, "as a grating
12 schmuck whose immaturity outweighed his intellect"?
13 A I don't recall that. fte 14 Q Now, do you recall giving an interview to the American 15 Medical News dated November 4th, 1983?
16 A I recall an interview with the AMA News. I'm not sure
17 of the date.
18 Q Would you look at Exhibit 80?
19 A Al1 right. I have the exhibit.
20 Q Would you turn to the fourth page. t 21 This is the article in the America Medical News dated 22 November 4th, 1983; is that correct?
23 A I can't find a date. It is an article from the AMA
24 News.
25 Q Do you remember approximately when it came out? 127
1 A No, I do not.
2 Q Dn that page, the fourth page, at the lower left-hand 3 i corne'r on the first column, there is a quotation attributed 4 to you. Is that quotation accurate? 5 A Is -- about the psychiatric diagnoses? 6 Q No. The paragraph beginning "Joe thinks he's 7 invu Inerable now." 8 A I'm sorry. Which column are we in?
9 Q The left-hand column, last paragraph. 10 A All right. I see that.
11 Q Would you tell us whether that paragraph is an accurate U quotation from you? 13 A I have no recall of these words. i* 14 Q You've seen this article before; haven't you? 15 A I believe I have, yes. 16 Q And, in fact, weren't these words quoted in some of 17 your Defense Update Newsletters? 18 A Weren't these words? 19 Q Yes. 20 A I have no recall of that. 21 Q Well, you read your Defense Update Newsletters; don't 22 you? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Let me go through the wording and you tell me if it's 25 accurate or inaccurate. "Joe thinks he's invulnerable now 128
1 because the Supreme Court ruled against me. But he's wrong.
2 I'm gtfing to sue to stop the paperback and the movie,- and r 3 • I want you to understand this. I hope that the hard cover 4 does not sell a single copy. And I'm going to sue him.
5 Joe will pay."
6 Did you say those words to the interviewer?
7 A I have no recall of saying this to the interviewer.
8 Q Does it express how you feel? i 9 A About wishing that "Fatal Vision" wouldn't sell a 10 single copy?
11 Q Yes. 8 12 A I would have rather that "Fatal Vision" did not sell 13 a single copy, yes.
14 Q Even if that meant some financial cost to yourself in
15 terms of not receiving royalties; isn't that correct?
E 16 A I didn't receive royalties anyway.
17 Q Well, do you plan to return the $90,000 that you 18 received?
19 A The book hadn't been published at that point.
20 Q Do you plan to return the $90,000 that you received?
21 A Return them?
22 Q Yes . 23 A To?
24 Q Either Sterling Lord or Mr. McGinniss.
25 A No, I do not have that plan.
I 129
i Q Do you plan to donate them to your in-laws?
2 A Ho, I don't have that plan.
3 Q &ow, what about the expression at the end, "Joe will
4 pay." Did you have that feeling then?
5 A Oh, I'm not sure that I would characterize it with
6 those three words.
7 Q Isn't that what you're trying to do with this lawsuit,
8 to make Joe pay?
9 A Well, I think that he should pay the royalties due me,
10 yes .
11 Q In that paragraph, the sense of the expression, you're u not talking about royalties. You are talking about the E 13 anger and betrayal that you felt when the book came out;
14 isn't that true?
Be 15 A Well, I'm not sure these are my words, first of all.
16 So we're in — it's hard to answer your question.
17 Q Well, did you notify the publisher or the editor that
18 it was inaccurately quoting you?
19 A Did I?
20 Q Yes. I 21 A I'm not sure. 22 Q Isn't it a fact that you did not? 23 A I don't recall that.
24 Q The next column, about almost halfway down, it quotes 25 you as saying, "I'm angry, yes. I'm very angry- 130
i Did you say those words?
2 A I. don't recall these exact words.
3 Q tere you angry at the publication of the book?
4 A 1 was definitely upset at the publication of "Fatal
5 Vision," yes.
6 Q Were you angry?
7 A Well, I suspect there was some anger there, yes. t 8 Q Was it boiling inside you so suddenly and furiously
9 that you were about to do something stupid?
10 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object, your Honor.
1] Argumentative.
12 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
13 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't characterize it that way, no. Be 14 15 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
16 Q Do you see, about halfway down that paragraph, there's
17 another quotation attributed to you: "Now there's a bad
18 book out about me, and some sleazeball who's globbed on to
19 the story to make a buck is going on every TV show in America." Did you say that? 20 A I don't recall these specific words. 21
22 Q Then two paragraphs later the words attributed to you
23 are: "My frustration builds, and builds, and builds."
24 Did you say those words?
25 A Again, I don't recall the specific words. 131
1 Q Was your frustration building, and building, and 2 building? 3 A Do you mean at being in prison? 4 Q No. At the book. That's what it's referring to. 5 ' MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object to Counsel 6 characterizing the document written by somebody else. 7 THE COURT: Well, why don't you read from the 8 article and then ask him about it?
9 BY MR. KORNSTETN: 10 Q Let me phrase it this way: Was your frustration 11 building about the publication of "Fatal Vision"? 12 A Well, I think that it1s hard to characterize my 13 entire range of feelings about a false book. 14 Q I'm just asking you about your frustration. » 15 MR. KORNSTEIN: And I move to strike the 16 reference to "false," your Honor. 17 THE COURT: The answer will be stricken. 18 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 19 Q Was your frustration this time, in the fall of 1983, 20 building about the publication of "Fatal Vision."; yes or no? 21 A It was already published. The book was already 22 published. 23 Q Did you send copies of this article to anybody? 24 A Of this particular article? 25 Q Yes- 132
i A I have no recall of that.
2 Q Do you know if any of your liaison people sent copies r 3 to otiier people? 4 A I have no idea. I have no recall for that at all.
5 Q Would you look at Exhibit 132.
6 THE CLERK: It's in Volume II.
7 THE WITNESS: I don't have Volume II here.
8 (Is provided a volume.)
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. What was that exhibit
10 number, please?
11 MR. KORNSTEIN: Exhibit 132.
12 THE WITNESS: All right.
13 THE CLERK: Is that in your December?
14 MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes. f 15 THE CLERK: 132 before the witness. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
17 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
18 Q That is a letter you wrote; isn't it?
19 A Yes, I believe it is.
20 Q Dated November 2nd, 1983?
21 A Yes.
22 Q I'm sorry, September 2nd, 1983. I apologize.
23 It's to Whom it May Concern from Jeffrey R. MacDonald; isn't
24 that correct?
25 A Yes. 133
i Q Now, would you look at Page 5, beginning on the second 2 line.- There you give your own characterization of your P 3 feelings about "Fatal Vision" and you say, quote: "I can 4 only characterize my overview as one of extreme anger, 5 frustration, and sadness at this attempt to portray me as I 6 a person capable of committing monstrous crimes." Close 7 quote.
8 You were extremely angry; weren't you? 9 A Do you mean do these words say that? 10 Q Do they accurately reflect what you were feeling at n the time? 12 A What I felt was a very complex mixture of feelings; 13 anger was part of that. 14 Q Extreme anger? Be 15 A It's difficult for me to — 16 Q They're your words. Don't you choose your words 17 carefully?
18 A I think generally I try to think through what I write, 19 yes. 20 Q And if you wrote "extreme anger," then you meant you 21 were extremely angry. 12 MR. BOSTWICK; I'm going to object unless it's 23 a question. Is that a question? 24 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 25 Q Did it mean that you were extremely angry, or was it a 134
1 false statement? 2 A "Well, I definitely was, you know, there was anger, and a anxiety, and frustration about the book, yes. 4 Q Okay. Isn't it true that you instituted this lawsuit
5 out of malice and vengeance against Joe McGinniss for having 6 written "Fatal Vision"? 7 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object to the 8 question as not being relevant, argumentative, and compound. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 BY MR. KORNSTEIN; 11 Q Now, beginning in 1970 you had — and your attorney, 12 Mr. Segal — been talking to a number of other authors to 13 write something about you and your case; isn't that correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And on one point in 1970, you appeared on the Dick —
ie or '71 — the Dick Cavett Show? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q VThich year was that? 19 A It was in the winter. So it would have been in 1970. 20 Q Okay. Now, in those early years before 1979, you 21 wrote letters to several authors ? 22 A Prior to 1979? 23 Q Yes. 24 A Yes. 25 Q Robert Sherrell, John Sack, among others?
I 135
1 A Yes. 2 Q And you tried to interest them in writing a book about 3 you and your case? 4 A Yes, I did. 5 Q Were your reasons for writing them at that time the 6 same as your reasons for trying to have a book written in 7 1979? 8 A No. 9 Q They were different reasons? 10 A Well, I — my recollection is there were additional 11 reasons. 12 Q ' How, one of the issues that has come up in this trial 13 is whether pathological narcissism is an appropriate term 14 to apply to you, as mentioned in the book. Be 15 Isn't it true that one of your reasons for trying to 16 interest a writer in you and your case is a craving for 17 attention and fame? 18 A I don't believe that's part of it at all. 19 Q About how many authors since 197 0 have you discussed 20 the possibility of having a book written about you? 21 A How many approached me? 22 Q How many did you discuss it with, putting aside who 23 approached whom? 24 A A very rough guess would be 10 to 12. 25 Q Now, you recall before your meeting with Mr. Wambaugh 136
i in 1979 you had had some conversation with him in 1975? 2 A Ho. 3 Q Did you have any contact with him in 1975?
A A I believe 1 received a letter from him. I'm not sure
5 about the extent of any other communication. 6 Q Well, that letter just didn't come out of thin air; 7 wasn't there a reason why he wrote you? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And it was in response to something you or your lawyer I 10 had transmitted to him? 11 A I don't recollect that. I don't believe that's true. 12 Q Why did Joseph Wambaugh write to you in 1975? 13 MR. BOSTWICK; Objection, your Honor. Calls for 14 speculation on the part of this witness. B* 15 THE COURT; Sustained. 16 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 17 Q Do you know whether anybody on your behalf spoke to IS Joseph Wambaugh before he wrote to you in 1975? 19 A Well, I'm having trouble with your ph rase ' on your I 20 beha If." 21 Q Who s Gloria Val (phonetic)? 22 A She is the person who I believe spoke to Joseph 23 Wamb augh in 1975. 24 Q And who is she? 25 A She is a nurse. 137 1 1 Q And did she speak to Joseph Wambaugh at your 2 instruction? r 3 A fro. i 4 Q With your knowledge? 5 A Not until it had been completed.
6 Q And she toId you about it ?
7 A She did.
8 Q And did you get a letter from Mr. Wambaugh at that
9 time?
10 A I believe I did.
11 Q That letter was around March 1975?
12 A I have no recall for that.
13 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I approach the
14 witness and show him the letter?
Be 15 THE COURT: Yes. Is this another exhibit you
16 want marked?
17 MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes, your Honor.
18 THE CLERK: 163.
19 MR. KORNSTEIN: We're trying to check whether
20 it's already listed.
21 THE COURT: We'll mark it 1-6-3 at this point.
22 (Exhibit 163 marked for identification.)
23 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
24 Q Is that the letter you received from Mr. Wambaugh in
25 March or early April 1975? 138
i A I don't recall this letter. It may. be. I don't
2 recall it. i* 3 Q -It's addressed to you; isn' t it? 4 A Yes, it is.
5 Q And it's on Mr. Wambaugh's stationery?
6 A It says it is, yes.
7 Q And the envelope that's attached to it has a postmark
8 date?
9 A A postmark date?
10 Q Yeah.
11 A Yes, it does.
12 Q And do you have any reason to believe that you didn't I t3 receive it? 14 A No.
to 15 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, we would move for
16 its admission if that's sufficient foundation, or we can
17 do it when Mr. Wambaugh testifies.
18 THE COURT: Any objection?
19 MR. BOSTWICK: We don't have any objection, your
20 Honor.
21 THE COURT; All right. It will be received in
22 evidence.
23 {Exhibit 163 received in evidence.)
24 THE COURT: What's the date of the letter?
25 MR. KORNSTEIN: March 2 8th, 1975. 139
i MR. KOENSTEIN: May I retrieve it? 2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 BY MR! KORNSTEIN:
4 Q Do you recall Mr. Wambaugh saying the following: First of all, let me say very immodestly that you do not get an 5
6 author like Truman Capote or Joseph Wambaugh to write an,
7 quote, "as told to," unquote, book. If this is what you
S have in mind, you might contact a good writer like Kurt
9 Gentry (phonetic) and see if he is interested.
10 Remember him saying that?
11 A You mean from just reading it or —
12 Q Yes.
13 A From just reading it?
14 Q Yes. ie 15 A Yes. 16 Q You weren't looking to have an "as told to" book; were
17 you?
18 A When are we talking about?
19 Q In 1975.
20 A I'm not sure I was looking for a book in 1975. i 21 Q Okay. Well, you weren't looking for an "as told to" 22 book 1979; were you?
23 A I'm not sure what I was looking for in 1979.
24 Q Okay. Fine.
25 Then in the next paragraph he says: If you aspire to 140
1 have your story told in a more, quote, "literary work,"
.<* 2 unquote, you should understand that I would not think of I 3 writing your story — your underlined. It would be my 4 story — my underlined. Just as the "Onion Field" was my — 5 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, I object to Counsel's 6 reading the exhibit into the record unless there is a 7 question that is connected in some way to the reading. 8 THE COURT: All right. Proceed. 9 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 10 Q Just as the "Onion Field" was my story and "In Cold 11 Blood" was Capote's story. We both had the living persons 12 sign legal releases which authorized us to interpret, 13 portray, and characterize them as we saw fit, trusting us 14 implicitly to be honest and faithful to the truth as we saw to 15 it — 16 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, I object to the 17 continued reading of this exhibit. 18 MR. KORNSTEIN: I'm going to ask a question. 19 THE COURT: Well, let him read it. This is his 20 examination, Mr. Bostwick. Let him read the letter and if 21 he has questions, he may ask them. I assume that's what's 22 going to happen. 23 All right. Proceed. 24 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 25 Q We both had the living persons sign legal releases 141
1 which authorized us to interpret, portray, and 2 characterize them as we saw fit, trusting us implicitly to 3 be hcfiest and faithful to the truth as we saw it, not as 4 they saw it. 5 Remember reading that paragraph when you got the 6 letter? 7 A I believe what I just read had some different words in 8 it than that. 9 Q You think that I did not read it accurately? 10 A From my quick reading just now I remembered something 11 else. 12 ' MR. KOKNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I show the 13 witness the paragraph? 14 THE COURT: Yes. B* 15 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 16 Q The third paragraph on the page. 17 A On the front page? 18 Q Yes. 19 A Yes, you read it correctly. My reference was to I 20 another paragraph. 21 Q All right. Now, when you read that paragraph, did you 22 think you understood what he was saying? 23 A I don't have any recall of my reaction to this letter. 24 MR. KORNSTEIN: May I retrieve it, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes. 142
i; 1 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
2 Q Do you recall the next paragraph where he says: With i 3 this release you can readily see that you would have no
4 recourse at law if you didn't like my portrayal of you.
5 Then he says: Let's face another ugly possibility. What if
6 I, after spending months of research and interviewing
7 dozens of people and listening to hours of court trials,
S did not believe you innocent?
9 Recall reading that paragraph?
10 A Just now?
U Q In 1975.
12 A No.
13 Q That one went right by you? B» 14 A I don't recall that letter, Mr. Kornstein. I can't 15 recall the paragraph if I don't recall the letter,
16 Q Do you recall writing a letter to Bernie Segal after
17 receiving this letter from Joseph Nambaugh in which you
I 18 refer to Wambaugh's letter?
19 A Do I recall writing a letter to Mr. Segal?
20 Q Yes.
21 A No.
22 THE COURT: If you're going into another subject
23 we're going to take our afternoon recess.
24 MR- KORNSTEIN: Very well.
25 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, 143
I 1 we are going to take our afternoon recess. We'll be in 2 recess for 15 minutes. Remember the admonition of the i f 3 Court'. 4 THE CLERK: All rise. This court is in recess 5 for 15 minutes. 6 (Afternoon recess.) 7
8
9
10
11 I certify that the foregoing is a true and correct
12 transcript of proceedings had on the record in the
13 above-entitled matter. B* 14 15 c 16 ZM. %~ / -£1 I Officiaifficial CourCouftf ReReportep r Date 17
I 18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
! 144
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, THURSDAY, JULY 30, 1987 r y 3:00 0'CLOCK PM. THE COURT: All right, you may proceed. MR. KORNSTEIN: Thank you. BY MR. KORNSTEIN: Q Would you turn to page 603 of the book. Exhibit 402. Would you read or glance at the writing on 603 9 beginning with, "There was no dearth of enlightening 10 materials to -- bottom of the page?. 11 A To myself? 12 Q Yes, the indented part is just an excerpt font, the 13 Wambaugh letter. B© 14 But would you read the rest to yourself. 15 A Yes, I see that. 16 Q Now, that refers to a letter that you wrote to 17 Bernie Segal the day after you got the letter from Mr. 18 Wambaugh and quotes your letter as saying, "enclosed is a 19 very interesting, what do you think? He sound awfully 20 arrogant to me, but it will be an obvious best seller if 21 he writes the book. 22 "Please gets back to me ASAP, as soon as 23 possible." 24 Does that refresh your recollection about 25 whether you wrote a note Mr. Bernard Segal after getting
I 145
1 the letter from Joe Wambaugh?
2 A Nj, it doesn't.
3 Q It doesn't?
4 A No.
5 Q Okay.
6 Would you turn to Exhibit 5, please. That's
7 the document dated August 3rd, 1979, which is in
8 evidence. I 9 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may we put that on 10 the screen?
11 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
12 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
13 Q Do you have it in front you? 1* 14 A I do. 15 Q There has been some testimony about this document.
16 I'd like to go through it very slowly and carefully and
17 make sure we all understand exactly what it's about.
18 It's dated August 13th, 19 -- August 3rd 1979,
19 I 'it, sorry. Is that correct?
20 A Yes,it appears to be.
21 Q And you did sign the second page?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And your attorney witnessed i t?
24 A Yes, he did.
2 5 Q And you had an opportunity to talk to your attorney 146
about it; didn't you? A Y«s, I did. Q And in fact you did talk to your attorney about it? A We had those discussions we've already talked about. Q And in fact you made some changes in the document, some rtiodif ications? A Well, I ir.ade one change. 9 Q Right, and your attorney handwrote in the other 10 change? 11 A That's right. 12 Q Right. And no changes that you requested were
13 refused by anyone, were they? B* 14 A Are you referring to changes that I suggested or 15 that Bernie suggested? 16 A Well, any changes refused by Mr. McGinniss or 17 Sterling Lord? IS A Of this document? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Of the one in front of us? 21 Q Yes. 22 A I don't believe so. 23 Q That's right. 24 How, this document is a letter from you to Joe 25 McGinniss; is that correct?
I 147
A Yes, it is.
Q Hjs signature doesn't appear on this document
anywhere, does it?
A No, it does not.
Q How, you consider yourself a well-read and educated
man, don ' t you?
A Well, I do some reading and I'm educated, yes.
Q You have a degree from Princeton University?
9 A No.
10 Q You went to Princeton University but left early to
11 go to medical school?
12 A That's.correct.
13 Q Without a degree? ee 14 A Well, I received a Bachelor of Science from medical 15 school plus an MD from medical school.
16 Q Why don't we just go through it line by line and
17 seeifwe understand exactly what your understanding was
18 of the document.
19 Now, the first sentence s imply says, does it
20 not, that you understand that McGinniss is writing a book i 21 about your 1 ife centering on your current trial for 22 murder. That's just background, right, just saying what
23 it's about —
24 MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question, the i 25 document speaks for itself. 148
THE COURT: I think it does. j Sustained. MR. KORNSTEIN: All right. BY MR. KORNSTEIN: Q Let's move to the second paragraph. In that paragraph you're granting certain rights to Mr. McGinniss; isn't that correct? MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question if it
9 calls for a legal conclusion.
10 THE COURT: The document speaks for itself.
11 Do you have a question about some part of it? I 12 When you try to summarize it you leave 13 something out. It's there before us, we all see what it to 14 says. 15 Now, what is your question?
E 16 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
17 Q Is there anything in the second paragraph that Mr.
18 McGinniss was supposed to give you?
19 MR. BOSTWICK: Same objection, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Do you see something in the second
21 paragraph that says that? If so, point it out to us.
22 MR. KORNSTEIN: I don't see anything in the
23 second paragraph. 1 24 THE COURT: Then why ask him if there's 25 something in there that's not there.
L 149
MR. KORNSTEIN: Okay. BY MR. JORNSTEIN: ^ Q In the third photograph, that's where you made certain, you may one change and your attorney made another change; is that correct? A Yes.
Q And the change that you made was changing "in any manner" to read, "in the manner," correct? 9 A At Joe's suggestion, yes.
10 Q And your attorney added the words at the end of the 11 paragraph "provided that the essential integrity of my 12 life story is maintained; is that correct? 13 A Yes. to 14 Q Now, isn't it true that that amendment at the end 15 of the paragraph modifies what precedes it? 16 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object on the same i 17 grounds as before. 18 THE COURT: I think that's up to the jury to 19 decide that, Mr. Kornstein, whether it modifies it or 20 not. 21 MR. KORNSTEIN: Okay. 22 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 23 Q In that paragraph it talks about your agreeing that 24 you will not make or assert against McGinniss, the •25 publisher or its licensees or anyone else involved in the 151
production and distribution of the book any claim or
demand whatsoever based on the ground that anything in
the book defames you.
That's the way it read before the added
language was put in; is that correct?
I A Yes.
Q This lawsui t that we 're here in court for today is
not a defamation suit, is it?
9 A Might.
10 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, calls for a legal
11 conclusion on the part of the witness. i 12 THE COURT: Do you agree it's not a defamation 13 action?
14 MR. BOSTWICK: I will stipulate that.
15 THE COURT: All agree it's not a defamation
16 action. I 17 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 18 Q Now, the next paragraph, the one beginning "I
19 hereby release," that paragraph contains no handwritten
2 0 amendment to it?
21 A No, it does not.
22 Q And that paragraph refers to your "releasing,
23 discharging and acquitting McGinniss from any and all E 24 claims, demands or causes of action that you might 25 hereafter have against him, whether for libel, violation 151
I 1 of right of privacy or anything else, by reason of J 2 anything contained in the book or in the publicity or 3 advertising pertaining thereto." 4 Now, of the categories of losses that are
5 mentioned there,- libel, violation of right of privacy or 6 anything else, doesn't this case fall within the category 7 of anything else? 8 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, calls for a legal 9 conclusion on the part of the witness. 10 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, can I have a 11 stipulation from counsel then? 12 THE COURT: Well, talk to him off the record
13 and see if he wants to stipulate.
- '\> 14 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, there being no 15 stipulation, I'll ask a few more questions. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
18 Q You have five claims in this lawsuit; do you not? 19 A I believe that's true. 20 Q One of those claims is for fraud? 21 A That's true. 22 Q One claim is for intentional infliction of 23 emotional distress? 24 A That's true. 25 Q One claim is for breach of covenant, of fair 153 I isn1t it? P A If we are saying that anything else other than libel?
Q Yes. /
A Yes, I believe it would be.
Q Now, you did not ask Mr. McGinniss to modify that
last paragraph, did you?
A I don't think I -- I don't think I discussed that
9 wi th him, no.
10 Q And did you hear Bernie Segal ask him to modify 11 that last paragraph?
12 A Are you asking me what I heard?
13 Q Yes. l# 14 A I don't recall the — all the the words that went 15 back and forth.
16 Q The fact is, isn't that no one asked Mr. McGinniss
17 or Mr. Lord to modify that last paragraph, did they?
18 A Hell, I'm not sure I can answer that.
19 Q To your knowledge.
20 A Iunderstoodthat Bernard Segal had requested
21 several changes in a prior draft.
22 Q I'm talking about this draft that you know about.
23 Didyouhear anybody ask Mr. McGinniss or Mr. I 24 Lord to modify that last paragraph? 25 A I can't answer that yes or no because there was I 154
I conversation between Bernard and Joe McGinniss that I am r not awaje of the content of. Q Right, I'm just asking what you know about it.
From w! .t your knowledge is, no such request
was made, was it?
A I have no knowledge of communications about that.
Q And you heard Mr. Segal's testimony that did he not
request to modify that paragraph?
9 ME. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object to the i 10 question as being argumentative and irrelevant. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. E 12. ' MR. KORKSTEIN: All right. 13 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
14 Q Now, going up to the second paragraph, the last two
15 lines where it says, "you may include in the book any
16 incident, characters, dialogues, actions, scenes and
17 situations that you desire."
18 Did you ask to modify that sentence?
19 A 1 discussed that with Joe McGinniss.
20 Q And did he refuse any requested amendment?
21 A He told me that he was going to tell a fair and
2 2 accurate story on the truth and that he was a nonfiction
23 writer. I 24 Q Did he demand that any modification be made in that 25 paragraph or that sentence?
I 155
1 A No, with the understanding that —
! 2 t MR. KORNSTEIN: Move to strike after "no," 3 your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Everything after "no" is stricken. 5 BY MR. KORNSTEIN; 6 Q Now, is there anything on that page of the document 7 that says that Mr. McGinniss would write a book 8 portraying you as innocent? E 9 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, documents speaks for 10 itself. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 MR. KORNSTEIN: Can we go to the second page. 13 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: to 14 Q Looking at the second paragraph, i t mentions that 15 there was "consideration of ten dollars, receipt of which 16 was hereby by acknowledged." i 17 Your testimony, I believe, the other day was 18 you didn't receive that ten dollars? 19 A I believe -- 20 Q I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt — 21 A I believe my testimony was that I don't recall. 22 Q Okay. And you would not have s igned the false
23 statement, would you? 24 A Well, not knowingly. i 25 Q Not knowingly. 156
Now, isn't it also true that on July 16th, 1979 f you wouj^d sign an agreement with Mr. McGinniss to do this project, the three piece agreement?
A Yes. I Q That was the agreement, "consideration therefore" and the power of attorney.
Do you remember those documents?
A Yes, I do.
9 Q And you were told by Mr. McGinniss, and I guess I 10 Sterling Lord spoke to Mr. Segal about it, that the 11 project couldn't be done wi thout a release; is that I 12 correct? 13 MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question as being
14 compound.
15 MR. KORNSTEIN: I'll rephrase it.
16 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
17 Q Were you -- you were informed that the project
18 could not happen unless there was a release; is that
19 correct?
20 A I don't think I heard it in exactly those words.
i 21 Q You were informed that the publisher needed a
22 release?
23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. So that if there were no release the
25 underlying agreement from July 16th would have been 157 I frustrated, right? f i MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the use of the tern, frustrated as calling for a conclusion of law.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
Q Without the release the purpose of the July 16th
agreement would not have come about; isn't that right?
A Well, the information that was imparted to rr,e was
9 that the publisher felt that they needed it at least
10 several weeks after we had the prior agreements.
11 Q So that the basic agreement which had you getting a
12 certain percentage of proceeds and royalties would not
13 have put anything in your pocket unless such a release i» 14 were signed; isn't that correct?
15 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, calls for a
16 conclusion of law.
17 MR.. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, that's not —
18 THE COURT: Well, all right, let me hear the
19 question again.
20 (Whereupon the previous question was read.)
21 THE COURT: I think it calls for a legal
22 conclusion.
23 MR. KORNSTEIN: I'll withdraw.
24 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
25 Q If there were no book, there would be no royalties; I 153 I isn't that correct? r 'A Well, I Tm not sure there wouldn' t have been an advance. Q All right, if the publisher would not pay the advance wi thout the release, then there would be nei ther royalties nor the advance without the release, isn't that correct?
A I really -- I don't know, I don't work in this 9 business. 10 Q Well, you were certainly contemplating proceeds and 11 your share of the proceeds beyond the advance, weren't i 12 you? 13 A Beyond the advance? 14 Q Yes. 15 A Yes, I believe that had been part of my thinking 16 process, yes. 17 Q So without the book there would be no royalties and 18 proceeds beyond the advance; isn't that correct? 19 A If there were no book? 20 Q Yes. 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Isn't it correct that your motivation in signing 23 this was to make the deal go forward and to realize these 24 shares of proceeds? 25 A I'm not sure I would characterize my reaction back B 159
on August 3rd that way. i* Q Wqll, you had a financial interest in this transaction; didn't you? A Yes, I did. Q And if the transaction did not occur, you would not realize that financial interest? A I understood the transaction had occurred. Q Had the advance been agreed to by August 3rd? 9 A I'it, not sure when the advance was agreed to. 10 Q You don't know whether it was before or after 11 August 3rd? 12 A That's correct.
13 Q How, in this document, both pages 1 and 2, is there Eft 14 any wording in it whereby Mr. McGinniss is granting youv 15 anything?
I 16 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor,the 1 17 document speaks for itself. 18 THE COURT: Sustained.
19 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
20 Q Isn't it true that this entire document is a
21 granting of rights on your part to Mr. McGinniss and a
22 relinguishment of certain rights on your part against Mr.
2 3 McGinniss? Am I correct? I 24 MR. BOSTWICK: Same objection. In addition I 25 calls for a conclusion of law. 1 1 160 I THE COURT: Sustained. r I MR. KORNSTEIH: All right. BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
Q would you look at Exhibit 6, the Consent and i Release, dated December 17th, 1981. MR. KORHSTEIN: Your Honor, may we put it on
the screen?
THE COURT: Yes, it's up now. BY MR.
9 KORNSTEIN:
10 Q Do you have that in front you?
11 A Yes, I do.
12 Q That was signed on December 17th, 1981?
13 A I believe it was. i* 14 Q And you had kept it in your possession for about 15 six weeks before signing it?
16 A From whenever time I received it from Sterling
17 Lord, yes.
18 Q Do you remember receiving it in October of that
19 year?
20 A I know that from the exhibit we showed here.
21 Q The cover letter? •
2 2 A Yes.
23 Q First of all, you had an opportunity to consult
24 wi th your attorney about this document?
25 A No, I did not. L I I 161
I Q You had it from October to December and you did not r have an^opportunity to discuss it with your lawyer? A I don't recall having had that opportunity. Q Well, did you try to discuss it with your lawyer? i A I don't have any recollection of that. Q Was there anything that Mr. McGinniss or Sterling I Lord did to prevent you from, discussing it with your lawyer? 9 | A Mr. McGinniss asked me not to discuss it.
10 | Q Did they stop you from discussing it with your 11 | lawyer? 12 A Joe indicated there was some need for -- there was
13 some urgency in getting it back to him,. e* 14 | Q In the six weeks that you had it was there anything i 15 | done by Mr. McGinniss that stopped you from speaking to a 16 | 1awye r about i t? 17 A No. 18 Q You could have spoke to a lawyer if you wanted to; 19 isn't that correct? 20 A I could have met with a lawyer, yes. 21 | Q And did you discuss it at all with Bernie Segal? i 22 | A No, I did not. 23 | Q All right. Now, you did sign this; didn't you? E 24 | A Yes, I did. 25 | Q And did you ir,ake any amendments or modifications to
L 162
the document? J* A Nf, I did not. Q How, what I'd like to do first is to go to page 2
I of the document. Could you look at the 4th paragraph.
There you see that you agree that "all of the
consent and rights herein granted to you, meaning
McGinniss, shall be exclusive and perpetual throughout
the world."
9 Do you see that word perpetual?
10 A Yes, I do.
11 Q Do you know what that means?
12 A I have an understanding of the word, yes.
13 Q What is your understanding? to 14 A Ongoingin time.
15 Q Does it mean forever to you?
16 A Yes, it can mean that. i 17 Q And "exclusive," what does exclusive mean to you? 18 What is your understanding?
19 A Singular.
20 MR. BOSTWICK: I'm going to object to the form
i 21 of question, if he's asking what his understanding in
22 general is of the word exclusive.
2 3 If he's asking about this document, I have no
24 objection.
25 MR. K0RNSTE1N: I mean about the document, of 163
course. J* BY MR. EIORNSTEIN: Q What does exclusive mean to you in the context of
the document?
A I can't figure out what exclusive means in this
sentence.
Q We 11, you signed it. Did you have some
understanding of what it meant?
9 A Yes.
10 Q What was your understanding?
11 A What Joe McGinniss told me.
12 Q What was your understanding of the word exclusive?
13 A Oh, I have no recollection of even reviewing that,
14 to be honest.
15 Q You signed it without reviewing it, after holding
16 it for six weeks?
17 A I 'IT, sure that I read through this. I have no
18 recollection of any thought process involving
19 paragraph 4.
20 Q All right. Now, why don't, we while we are on that
21 page, look at paragraph 3. There it says that you are
22 agreeing that "McGinniss and anybody authorized by
23 McGinniss may exercise all or any of the rights herein
24 granted by you wi thout claims, demands or causes of
25 action, whether for libel, defamation, violation of right 164
of privacy or infringement of any literary or other f property right or otherwise insofar as I am concerned." Do you recall reading that paragraph? A I recall -- yes, I do recall reading this paragraph.
Q And did you make any modification or amendment to that paragraph? A Not after talking with Joe. 9 Q Of the various categories listed in that paragraph 10 for types of claims, doesn't your case here fall within 11 the category of "otherwise"? 12 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, calls for a 13 conclusion of law. 14 " THE COURT: Sustained. 15 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 16 Q Do you claim that your case here today falls 17 outside the scope of this paragraph? 18 MR. BOSTWICK: Same objection. 19 THE COURT; I've got to have a point of 20 clarification, so I want counsel to approach the side
21 bar. 22 (Side-bar conference outside the hearing of the
23 jury:) 24 THE COURT: Have you pled the release as a bar
25 to the action? 165
MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes, your Honor. I THE COURT: It's pled? MR. KORNSTEIN: Yes. THE COURT: Okay. MR. BOSTWICK: I don't think I'it, sure that that exists, I don't know where that is. I'd have to look. MR. KORNSTEIN: Both in the pleadings and pretrial conference. 9 MR. BOSTWICK: It could, I'll have to look.
10 THE COURT: All right, now — 11 MR. KORNSTEIN: But limited to the non- 12 contract claims, the claim for the — 13 THE COURT: Okay. What you're asking hin. now 14 i s to interpret the pleadings. As I understand your 15 question, you're asking him to interpret the pleadings in 16 this case and tell us whether or not they fit wi thin the 17 confines of this letter, and I don't think a lay person 18 is able to do that. Knowing that you have to study 19 pi eading for a semester of law school and/or it.aybe a 20 quarter. But — 21 MR. KORNSTEIN: Sure. 22 THE COURT; But I think it's really putting a 23 burden on a lay person. That is unfair. 24 MR. KORNSTEIN: I'll withdraw the question. 25 THE COURT: Okay. 166
BY MR. KORHSTEIN: 1* Q Will you look for the first page, page 1. Now, the underlining is not in the original document that you signed; isn't that correct? A That's correct. Q In the paragraph with the Arabic numeral 1, you talked about -- document talks about consenting to use publishing exhibit and exploit all interviews wi th you.
9 And refers to "books." E 10 Do you see the word books there? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And then it goes on to talk about motion picture
13 and television production. to 14 When you read the document you saw that it said 15 the word "books," didn't you?
16 A I don't recall that. 17 Q You don't recall seeing the word books? 18 A No.
19 Q You did read the document before signing it; didn't 20 you? 21 A I probably glanced through it, yes.
22 Q And you know what the word "books" means, don't 23 you? 24 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, argumentative. i 25 THE COURT: All right. 167
1 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: J 2 Q "|atal Vision" is a book; isn't it? 3 A Yes, it is.
4 Q Okay. Then after some of the language is the next 5 underlined portion; it talks about "which may be based in 6 whole and in part on your life and then, parentheses, it 7 says, with the unlimited right as you, McGinniss, may in 8 your sole discretion deem proper to quote directly, to 9 paraphrase, to edit, to rewrite, to add material to
10 and/or delete material from and otherwise to make use of 11 such recordings and other reproductions and interviews." 12 And you read that when you signed the document; 13 didn't you? 14 A Yes, I believe I did. 15 Q And i t refers to cassettes and tape recordings,
16 doesn't it? 17 ME. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor,the 18 document speaks for itself. 19 THE COURT: Obviously does. Now what's your 20 question? 21 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 22 Q Now, those tape recordings that you sent to Mr. 23 McGinniss were subject to this agreement; weren't they? 24 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor, calls 25 for a conclusion of law. 169
1 make certain deci sions?" J* 2 A If-- T see those words now, I don't recall seeing 3 their, then. I probably did.
4 Q Did you have an understanding of what the words 5 "your sole discretion" meant at the time you signed the 6 document? 7 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor, I don't 8 know which "at his sole discretion" he's referring to. I 9 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: .10 Q Did they have different meanings to you? 11 It's used twice. Did they mean different 12 things in different places? 13 A I never thought that through. 14 Q Did you think anything about it? 15 A This document? 16 Q About the phrase "in your sole discretion." 17 A I 'rr, not sure. 18 Q Well, do you have — are you saying you had no 19 understanding of what the phrase "in your sole
20 discretion" meant when you signed the document? 21 A In reference to this document? 22 Q Yes. 23 A I'm saying that the reason I signed the document 24 was because I talked to Joe McGinniss. 25 MR. KORNSTEIN: Move to strike, your Honor. 170
I just want an answer to —
i THE COURT: The answer is stricken. BY MR. KORNSTEIN: Q Did you have any understanding of the meaning of the phrase "in your sole discretion" when you signed the document? A As it relates to this document? Q Yes. 9 A I don't believe so.
10 Q And once again, you did have an opportunity to 11 consult with the attorney of your choice as to the 12 meaning of the.document; didn't you? 13 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection., your Honor, it's 14 argumentative. 15 THE COURT: I didn't hear your objection. 16 MR. BOSTWICK: It's already been answered. 17 THE COURT: Overruled, 18 THE WITNESS: I did not consult with an 19 attorney. 20 MR. KORNSTEIN: Move to strike, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: You said, the question is — 22 MR. KORNSTEIN: Did he have an opportunity. 23 THE COURT: — did he have an opportunity to. 24 All right, answer is stricken. 25 Yes or no? I 171
1 THE WITNESS: Ho. I* BY MR. JfORNSTEIN: Q You had no opportunity. I You had the six weeks in which to consult with an attorney if you chose to? A That's -- there were six weeks that I had
apparently this letter in my possession, yes. Q And you could have spoken to an attorney, if you 9 wanted to? 10 A You mean any attorney? I t 11 Q Any attorney you wanted to. 12 A I could have spoken to an attorney. 13 I'm not sure I could have spoken to my 14 attorney. 15 Q You could have spoken to the attorney of your 16 choice during that time, yes? 17 A I'm not sure. IS Q Did you try speak to any attorney during that time? 19 A About this document? 20 Q Yes. 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. 23 Now, you understood of course, did you not, 24 that in order to get a release for the TV movie, the 25 movie was going to be based on the book, right? 172
1 A That was my understanding. 2 Q So that in order to get a release for the movie 3 there had to be a release for the book as well; right? 4 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor, calls 5 for a conclusion of law. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 8 Q Do you remember wri ting a letter to Mr. McGinniss 9 dated February 18th, the — there is no year, you may be 10 able to identify the year — where you refer to whether 11 the television movie would be based on the book? 12 A No, I can't recall that. 13 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may I approach i* 14 the witness? 15 THE COURT: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have the letter. 17 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 18 Q What year was that letter written? 19 A I believe this is 1983. 20 Q Now, during the six weeks that you had the Consent 21 and Release, Exhibit 6, you were not in prison, were you? 22 A No, I was not. 23 Q You signed it at your home in Huntington Beach? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q Now, this February 1983 letter is from you to Mr. 173
McGinniss?
A Y^s, it is.
Q And at the bottom of the first page and the top of
the second page it discusses the television movie
contract and whether it is based on the book?
A Yes.
Q And does that in any way refresh your recollection
as to your understanding as to whether the movie had to
9 be based on Mr. McGinniss1 book?
10 A It was ir.y understanding that the movie would be 11 based on the book.
12 MR. KORNSTEIN; Thank you. May I retrieve it?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
15 Q Did you regard the releases, Exibits 5 and 6, as
16 binding obligations upon yourself?
17 A I 'it. not sure I gave that any thought.
18 Q Is it your habit when signing contracts not to give
19 it a thought whether they're binding obligations on
20 yourself?
21 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor,
22 irrelevant.
23 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
24 THE WITNESS: No. If I sign a contract I
25 usually consider it a binding contract. 174 I 1 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: r 2 Q Sf I ask you again, did you consider signing 3 Exhibits 5 and 6 as binding obligations on yourself? 4 A .Well, they are very different documents. I had 5 different feelings about the two. I can1t put them 6 together. 7 Q Let's separate them out. Did you consider Exhibit 8 5, the August 3rd, 19 7 9 document, a binding obligation on 9 yourself? 10 A That thinking process didn't enter it. I just did 11 what Bernie Segal told me do. 12 Q So you gave no thought to whether or not it was a 13 binding obligation upon yourself? ie 14 A Well, I'm not sure I'd categorize it that way. I 15 mean, I'm sure I had some thoughts, but basically I 16 turned to Bernie and said, "Should I sign this?" 17 Q All right. Andthesecond document, Exhibit 6, did 18 you regard that as a binding obligation on yourself? 19 A That was a document of a very different nature. 20 In that case I asked Joe McGinniss should I 21 sign. 22 MR. KORHSTEIN: Move to strike. 23 THE COURT: All r ight. The answer is stricken. 24 Did you consider it to be a binding obligation,
25 I think, is the question. 175
THE WITNESS: I didn't think that through. f BY MR. 40RNSTEIN: Q All right. Now, when you first met Joe McGinniss in June of 1979, he was a guest columnist for the Los Angeles Herald Examiner? A That's correct. Q And he called you to do an interview for a column? A That's how I recall it, yes. 9 Q You were annoyed with the column when it came out? I 10 A Yes, I had feelings of annoyance. 11 Q You had asked him not to refer to certain things in 12 the column and he disobeyed your instructions? 13 A I'm not sure I'd characterize it that way. ie 14 I was annoyed that the exact three things that 15 I had hoped that would not be mentioned in the column 16 were mentioned in the first paragraph. 17 Q Now, that was fiefore you signed any book contract 18 with Mr. McGinniss, wasn't it? 19 A Yes. 2 0 Q And did you express your annoyance at the column to
21 anyone? 22 A Yes. 23 Q To whom? 5 24 A To Barbara Gallagher, I believe to my mother, I 25 believe to Sheree Sizelove, I. believe -- it's possible I
I 176
think -- my recall is that I did refer my annoyance to
Bernie fegal.
Q And at some po int did you give an interview wi th a
reporter from the Washington Post about that incident? I A The interview wasn't about that incident. May have come up dur ing that interview.
Q Would you look at Exhibit 103.
THE CLERK: 103 before the witness.
9 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
10 Q Would you turn to the first page of the exhibit?
11 A This is Exhibit 103?
12 Q Yes, it should be an article entitled, "The return
13 of Jeffrey MacDonald," by Paul Taylor.
I* 14 Is that what you're looking at?
15 A Yes. I Tir, sorry, did you say read it?
16 Q Just read the first column. There is a column on
17 the first page.
18 A To myself or out loud?
19 Q Yes, to yourself.
20 A Yes, I read the column.
21 Q Now, the paragraph that begins — let's see, the
22 third one from the bottom, "well, I look back on it
23 now..."
I 24 Do you see that paragraph?
25 A Yes. 177
1 Q It says, "well, I look back on it now and bells 2 should lpave gone off in my head." 3 Did you say that to the reporter? I 4 A I don't recall those specific words. 5 Q Do all reporters just make up words to you? 6 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor, 7 argumentative. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 10 Q Is that what you felt at the time? 11 A During the interview? 12 Q Yes. 13 A I think that's probably how I felt, yes. 14 Q All right, so you felt that as you looked back on 15 it, bells should have gone off on in your head; is that 16 correct? 17 A You mean after the book came out? 18 Q No, after the article, the column came out. That's 19 what you were referring to. That the fact that Mr. 20 McGinniss wrote his column the way he wanted to do it 21 instead of the way you wanted him to do it should have 22 given you some warning, bells should have gone off, that 23 he was an independent writer and not subject to 24 instructions from a subject. 25 MR. BOSTWICK: I 'm going to object, your 178
1 Honor, I don't hear a question. i* 2 i THE WITNESS: I'mi sorry, what is the question? 3 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 4 Q The question is, did you feel that bells should 5 have gone off in your head about Joe McGinniss because of 6 the column that he wrote? E 7 A After the book came out I had that feeling. 8 Q Okay, i n retrospect. 9 A Because it was an enlargement of doing things he I 10 said he wouldn't do. 11 Q Now, in fact, your first experience wi th McGinniss 12 did show you that he did not follow the instructions of a 13 subject of some of his writing? 1* 14 A But you're mischaracterizing what happened. 15 I wasn't instructing Joe McGinniss. 16 Q What were you doing? 17 A I was pointing out to hirr. that I felt it was not 18 the important aspects of the story to mention the color 19 of ir,y girl friend's hair, or a boat, or a car. 20 He assured me that he agreed. And then it 21 appeared in the first paragraph of the story. 22 Q So you saw from your first run-in with McGinniss 23 that what you told him. was important or not important and I 24 the story was still subject to his own artistic 1 25 discretion? I 179
A No, that's not what happened. J* Q Ha disagreed with you about how the story ultimately should be wr i tten, didn't he? A That is not what he told rr.e.
Q The story as ul t imately wr itten, the column was different from what you wanted wasn't it? A The story as ultimately written, yes. Q Nonetheless you went ahead to sign a contract wi th 9 Mr. McGinniss, didn't you, even though you had that first .10 experience? ! 11 A After his reassurances of why that happened, I felt 12 comfortable going ahead, yes.
13 Q And in fact you were told by Bernie Segal that Joe S* 14 McGinniss was a good reporter, weren't you? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And didn't you first bring up the subject with 17 McGinniss about doing a book? 18 A I'm not sure, it's possible that I did. 19 Q You don't recall? 20 A I don't have a specific recollection. 21 My sense of the meeting is that it was brought 22 up by me, yes. 23 Q Do you recall seeing Mr. McGinniss' picture on the 24 front page of the Herald Examiner in June of that year?
2 5 A No. 180
Q Would you turn to Exhibit 138. ( Do you have that in front of you? A Yes. Q And that is your handwriting on the front, on the top? A Yes.
Q And is this a torn page from the Herald Examiner? A It appears to be so. 9 Q And is that Mr. McGinniss' picture?
10 A I think it is. 11 MR. KORNSTEIN: And, your Honor, we would move 12 that into evidence. Not for the truth of the matter in 13 it, just for the handwriting and the fact that it exists.
14 MR. BOSTWICK: We have no objection, your 15 Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. Exhibit 138 will be 17 received in evidence. 18 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 19 Q Would you read what it says at the top in your 2 0 handwriting? 21 A Out loud? 22 Q Yes, please. 23 A Oh, in my handwriting? 24 Q Yes. 25 A "K: colon, parentheses, book, dash, Joe McGinniss, 181
1 dash, close parentheses. " I 2 Q Wfrat does "K" refer to? 3 A That's a part-time secretary that I had.' I 4 Q Did you write this before or after you met Joe 5 McGinniss? 6 A Oh, I have no recall. 7 Q Didn't you write it as soon as you saw his picture 8 and the little squib about him so that you can follow it 9 uptoseeif he would be interested in writing the book? 10 A I don't believe that's so. 11 Q You wrote it for some other purpose? 12 MR. BOSTWICK: I 'm sorry, your Honor, I didn't 13 hear the question. I* 14 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 15 Q You wrote it for some other purpose, did you? 16 MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question as being 17 vague and ambiguous. I don't understand what "other 18 purpose." 19 THE COURT: Do you understand the question?
20 THE WITNESS: No, I don't, your Honor. 21 MR. KORNSTEIN: 1*11 rephrase it. 22 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 23 Q Did you rip out this portion of newspaper yourself? 24 A I have no recall of doing that, I don't remember 1 25 doing that. 1 182
Q Okay. You had certain preliminary conversations J* wi th Mri McGinniss before you signed the contract; didn't you? A Yes, I did. Q When those conversations — isn't it correct that Mr. McGinniss insisted on two condition's to going ahead: I One, that he would have complete discretion to write the book as he saw fit and, two, to have complete and total 9 access to you and the people around you during the trial
10 and after? 11 A I don't think it was expressed quite that clearly. 12 The sense that I had was that it was to be 13 Joe's words and my story. Be 14 Q You said that expression a number of times, now, 15 "Joe's words and your story." 16 This was a book in which you figured 17 pr oirii nently; wasn ' t it? 18 A Yes. 19 Q So it is a book about you and certain events in 20 your life; isn't it? 21 A Yes. 22 Q So in that sense it is your story? 23 A You mean what eventually came out? 24 A It is a story about you? 25 A But that's not my story.
E 183 I Q It's — it may not be the story that you want, but f it is atstory about you. MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor, argumentative. THE COURT: First part of it is argument. Rephrase i t. BY MR. KORNSTEIN: Q The book "Fatal Vision" is a story about you? 9 A The book "Fatal Vision" is a story and I'm included 10 in the book, yes. 11 Q You are included rather prominently in the book? 12 A Yes.
13 Q And several thousands of your own words are to 14 included in the books, are they not? 15 A Yes, they are. 16; Q Many, many thousands of Joe McGinniss' words are 17 included in the book; aren't they? 18 A Yes, they are. 19 Q And many excerpts from the testimony and written 20 documents from the various proceedings are included as 21 well, are they not? 22 A Yes.
23 Q Now, when we talked about having the freedom to 24 wr ite the book as Mr. McGinniss saw fit, didn't he have 25 — didn't he insist on the right to write the truth as he
I 184
1 saw fit?
2 A 1% was not phrased to ir.e that way.
3 Q Well, do you recall in your deposi tion at page 115
4 and 116 discussing this matter?
5 A No.
6 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, I'd like to read
7 page 115, lines 21 to 25 and then on 116, pages 1 --
8 lines 1 to 4 in the deposition of the wi tness, Volurr.e I.
9 THE COURT: You may read.
10 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
11 Q "Question: Do you recall in your discussion
12 wi th Mr. McGinniss that same day Mr. McGinniss telling
13 you that you he would only write the book on the
» 14 condition that he had total control over what he 15 pub 1ished and could publish the truth as he saw it?
16 "Answer: Not in those words.
17 "Question: Do you recall any similar sentiment
18 or words to that effect?
19 "Answer: Yes.
20 Q Do you recall giving that answer or those answers
21 to those questions?
22 MR. BOSTHICK: Your Honor, I'd like to make a
23 request that Mr. Kornstein continue reading in this case.
24 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, I think it will be I 25 appropriate on cross-examination. 185 I 1 THE COURT: All right, you don't have to, if r 2 you donjt wish to do that. Possibly you can to do it on 3 redirect. 4 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 5 Q Now, didn't you understand that you would have full 6 input to McGinniss in the sense that he would hear your 7 version of the facts and the events? 8 A I was told that I would have ful1 input, yes. 9 •Q And by that didn't you understand to mean that you 10 would have the opportunity to tell your side of the case 11 to Mr. McGinniss? 12 A Well, my understanding of that was siightly 13 different than what you've stated. m 14 Q Was it also your understanding that McGinniss would 15 write a fair and accurate story? 16 A That's part of it. 17 Q And that it would be the ful1 and complete truth 18 about the crimes, your involvement in them, and the trial? 19 A Well, that's part of it. 20 Q And you did expect Mr. McGinniss to hear other 21 sides, other versions adverse to yours about the story? 22 A Yes, that's true. 23 Q And that the full story might not be simply the 24 Jeffrey MacDonald version of the events? 25 A No, I always told Joe that I can stand my warts.
I 186
Q And at this time you never during these preliminary
conversations told Mr. McGinniss that you wanted him to
wr i te a book portraying you as innocent, did you?
A Did I tell him that?
Q Yes.
A No, I did not. I Q And you understand that it was possible that Mr. McGinniss might come to a contrary conclusion than you
9 had?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And that you would never want Mr. McGinniss to
12 wri te something that he thought was false about the
13 crimes; would you?
B* 14 A You're asking me if I would want Joe McGinniss to
15 wr ite something false?
16 Q Yes.
17 A No. I requested something that was fair, accurate
18 and true.
19 Q And if he concluded from his research that he
20 believed different things about the crimes than you
21 believed, you expected him to write the truth as he
22 believed it; didn't you.
23 MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question as being
24 vague as to time as to when Dr. MacDonald expected what
25 Mr. Kornstein had expressed. 187
MR. KORNSTEIN: I'm talking about this period f of time(before the contract was signed, prior to July 16th, 1979.
THE WITNESS: I must have missed something.
Did I drop a question?
THE COURT: All right. State your question and
include the time telling him again.
BY MR. KORHSTEIN:
9 Q Before July 16th, 1979, before the contract was
10 signed?
11 A Yes, right.
12 Q If you expected that if Mr. McGinniss would come to
13 conclusions di fferent than your own conclusions, that he B© 14 would have the freedom to write those conclusions; isn't 15 that correct?
16 A Well, I'm not sure I went exactly through that I 17 thinking process that you're describing. I, prior to the 18 onset of the trial, my belief was that Joe was agreeing
19 to write a fair and accurate and truthful non-fiction
2 0 book.
21 Q All right. My question is if his version of the
22 truth differed from your version of the truth, at that
23 time didn't you expect him to write his version of the
24 truth?
25 A I always understood that Joe was writing his words. 1 MR. KORHSTEIN: Move to strike, your Honor.
r 2 ( THE'COURT: Yes, the answer will be stricken. 3 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
4 Q Can you answer my question?
5 A Pretrial
6 Q Pre-contract.
7 A Right. I understood our agreement, I thought, that
8 Joe would write a non-fiction book, a true and accurate
9 and fair accounting of the events.
10 MR. KORNSTEIN: Move to strike, your Honor.
11 My question was, if there are conflicting
12 versions of the truth between the subject and the author
13 whether the subject expected the author to write the
14 author's version of the truth or the subject's version of 15 the truth.
16 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, unless the question
17 contained in it the time of the expectation.
18 BY MR. KORNSTEIN:
19 Q Before the contract was signed July 16th, '79?
20 A No, I felt at that time, I felt that, again, Joe
21 would wr i te the words and if there were disagreements
2 2 between us he had the right to write the words that he
23 wanted to write providing that it was fair, accurate and 24 true.
25 Q Now, if the words happened to contain substance 189
1 that disagreed wi th your version of the truth, didn't he * I 2 have thjt freedom as well? 3 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, vague as to time. 4 MR. KORNSTEIN: All of my questions in this 5 series are pre-July 16, 1979. 6 MR. BOSTWICK: Also calls for a conclusion of 7 law as phrased. 8 THE COURT; All right, I 'm going to have that I 9 question read back, please. 10 (Whereupon the previous question was read.) 11 THE COURT: Are you asking for a legal opinion 12 or are you asking him his state of mind? 13 Why don't you make your question a little bit ie 14 clearer? 15 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 16 Q Was i t your understanding at the time, pre-July 17 16th, 1979, when you discussed preliminarily wi th Joe 18 McGinniss about the project that if his words contained 19 substance differing from your version of the truth that 20 he would have the right and the freedom based on your 21 understanding of your relationship to write a different' 22 version of the truth than your version? 23 A Provided that the facts — yes, providing that the 24 facts that he used were true facts and it was a fair and i 25 accurate accounting. 190
1 Q Okay Now, before July 16th, 1979, you never f 2 expected Mr. McGinniss when he got around to writing 3 something to write something that he did not believe was 4 true; did you? 5 A I'm not sure that I ever went through a thought 6 process like that. 7 Q Well, before July 16th, 1979, did you ever consider 8 what might happen if Mr. McGinniss concluded that you I 9 were guilty instead of innocent? Did that thought ever 10 cross your mind? 11 A I'm sure that crossed my mind. I can't recall it 12 specifically happening, but it must have occurred at 13 sometime. 14 Q And when the thought crossed your mind, did you 15 also think whether or not Mr. McGinniss would have the 16 right to conclude that you were guilty? 17 A Mr. McGinniss could conclude what he wanted, if it 18 was fair and honest and accurate and non-fiction. 19 Q And he could write about it that way in the book; 20 couldn't he? 21 A That was my understanding at that time. 22 Q And isn't it correct -- always, not just limited to 23 pre-July 16th, 1979, but throughout the relationship — 24 you never wanted Joe McGinniss to write anything false; 25 did you? 191
1 A Ho, I didn't want him to write false material. 2 Q Agd you would not want him to write something that 3 he did not believe in, did you, at any time? 4 A I didn't think that through. 5 Q Well, does that mean that you wanted him or would . 6 have wanted him to write something that he did not 7 believe was true?
8 A I made no request of Mr. McGinniss to wr ite 9 anything that was untrue.
10 Q Anddid you expect him to write anything that was 11 untrue? I 12 A No. 13 Q Now, wasn't it also your understanding that he 14 would have cooperation and access from you? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And that access would be total and complete access 17 to you and the defense team and the conduct of the trial? 18 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor, vague as 19 to time.
20 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 21 Q Prior to July 16th, '79? 22 A Yes. I had that understanding. 23 Q And that was as a result of your oral conversations 24 between yourself and Mr. McGinniss; isn't that correct? i 25 A That's true. 192 I Q And that access would include friends and family? f A Ygs. I believe that -- in my own mind I believe that was part of what 1 was agreeing to. Q And you and Mr. McGinniss had explicit conversations about that; didn't you.
MR. BOSTWXCK: Object, your Honor. My I objection is not about when this conversation took place or the expectation, but when the access and cooperation
9 was. 10 That's the crux of my objection. And it's 11 vague and ambiguous to that extent. 12 THE COURT: why don't you be more specific. 13 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: ft* 14 Q Now, would you look at Exhibit 2, the basic 15 contract. 16 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may we put it on 17 the screen? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 20 Q Do you recall that document? 21 A Yes. 22 Q That one you got legal advice about? 23 A Legal advice about? I 24 Q Yes. You were able to speak to an attorney about 25 that document. 193
A Well, yes, I discussed it with Mr. Segal.
Q Apd he signed it on your behalf?
A Yes, he did.
Q And you see in that paragraph it talks about
exclusive story rights to your life.
Did you have any understanding about what
"exclusive" meant in that document?
A Yes.
9 Q What was your understanding?
10 A My understanding was that my cooperation would be
11 with Joe McGinniss for a book centering around my life
12 and the trial and that I would not -- basically my sense
13 of the understanding was that I would not cooperate wi th
14 another book author until Joe's book was out.
15 Q Was there anything on the face of the document that
16 states how long the exclusivi ty would last?
17 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor, the
18 document speaks for itself.
19 THE COURT: Sustained.
20 BY MR. KORNSTEIN;
21 Q Would you look at Exhibit 3.
22 A Yes, I see that.
23 MR. KORNSTEIN: Your Honor, may we put it on
24 the screen?
25 THE COURT: Yes. 194
1 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: * 2 Q I£ you look at paragraph 4 on that document it 3 refers to Sterling Lord's fee. Talks about it being ten 4 percent of the gross return to the parties. 5 Weren't the parties referred to there yourself 6 and Mr. McGinniss? 7 A I'm not sure. 8 Q You don't know what "parties" refers to there? 9 A It could be Joe and Sterling. The money went to 10 Sterling Lord.
11 Q Well, why don't you look up in the first paragraph, 12 the introductory paragraph and the last line that says: 13 "The following represents the consideration 14 agreed upon by and between the parties." 15 Do you think you're one of the parties or not? 16 A The parties of the agreement to have a book 17 written?
18 Q The word parties that's said in that first 19 paragraph. Are you one of those parties?
20 A I — Iguessso, 21 Q Okay. And that was your understanding at the time; 22 wasn't it? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Then in the last paragraph, paragraph 4, the last 25 word "parties," did you understand at the time that that 195
1 word parties in paragraph 4 was referring to other people
! 2 than tht word parties in the first paragraph? 3 A I don't believe I ever thought that through. 4 Q Did anyone ever tell you that it was referring to 5 different people? 6 A Than the world "parties" in the last line? 7 Q Yes, means anything di fferent than the word parties 8 at the end of the introductory paragraph. 9 A I don't recall anyone doing that, no. 10 Q Isn't it a fact that you understood perfectly well 11 that the parties to this agreement were you and Joe 12 McGinniss? 13 MR. BOSTWICK: Objection, your Honor, 14 argumentative and asked and answered. B 15 THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer. 16 THE WITNESS: The parties to the agreement? 17 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 18 Q Yes. I 19 A ithoughtof this as a deal between Joe and myself. 20 Q Right. 21 A But that's — that's not what is being discussed in 22 four. 23 Q How, in four it talks about Sterling Lord's fee as 24 agent representative being ten percent of the gross 25 return to the parties. 196
You understood that Joe McGinniss was a writer, correct^ A That's correct. Q And you understood that you were going to be the subject of the book? A That's correct. Q And you also understood that it is the custom and practice in the publishing world and literary world to 9 have an agent take care of the business affairs of a 10 writer and his projects; isn't that correct? 11 A Well, I understood that writers had agents, yes. 12 Q Now, you had met with Sterling Lord on July 6th; 13 didn't you? 5© 14 A I don't recall a date. It was early in July. 15 Q On your direct examination, you recalled the date; 16 didn't you? You said it was July 6th? 17 A I think I said the week of July 6th. 18 Q And you met with Mr. Lord? 19 A I had a meeting with Mr. Lord, yes. 20 Q And at that meeting you discussed his 21 responsibilities in this potential transaction? 22 A His responsibilities? 23 Q Yes. A I'm not sure.
24 Q Well, wasn't it your understanding that he would be 25 handling the business aspects of this project? 197
1 A I understood that he would be disbursing the funds, rf* 2 ye s. i
3 Q Anddidn'tyoualso understand that he would be 4 attempting to place whatever contracts were going to be 5 involved with publishers and ir.ovie-and-TV people? 6 A Not on July 6th, but I eventually came to 7 understand his role, yes.
8 Q And in this division of labor, McGinniss was going I 9 to do the writing, you were going to be living your life, 10 and Sterling Lord was going to be handling the business 11 aspects; isn't that correct? 12 A That was my perception, yes. 13 Q On your direct examination you testified at one to 14 point that you wanted a book that would portray the true 15 story of your false and malicious prosecution. 16 Do you recall sayi ng that? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q If the writer decided that the prosecution was not 19 false and malicious, but accurate, didn't you expect him 20 to write what he viewed as the truth? 21 MR. BOSTWICK: Vague as to time, your Honor. 22 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 23 Q Before July 16, 1979. 24 A I'm not sure I thought it through in exactly those 25 terms, but Joe could write the words that he wanted to 198
write, yes. f Q We'll, you keep on making the distinction between the story and the words. Did his right — did his discretion to choose which words include the discretion to put substance and meat on those words, or was it going to be the words of Joe McGinniss but the voice of Jeffrey MacDonald?
A My understanding was that any meat that he put on 9 the substance, as you say, would have been truthful, fair 10 and accurate. That was my understanding. 11 Q Did you contemplate the possibility that you and 12 the writer might disagree about the truth? 13 A I contemplated that we might have disagreements on to 14 certain matters, yes. 15 Q Did you contert.pl ate the possibility of disagreement 16 on fundamental and basic matters? 17 A I don't believe I did, no. 18 Q Prior to July 16, 1979, did you ever tell that to 19 Mr. McGinniss? 20 A Tell what? 21 Q Just what you said, that you did not contemplate 22 disagreement with him on fundamenta1 and basic matters? 23 A I can't remember saying words like that, no. 24 Q Now, when you met with Sterling Lord on the weekend 25 of July 6th, didn't he tell you as William Buckley 199
testified that Joe McGinniss had a representation for integrity? MR. BOSTWICK: Object to the question as mischaracterizi ng the testimony in evidence. THE COURT: If it isn't true, he can so state. He asked if that was correct. MR. BOSTWICK: I'd like to add to it that it's cortipound.
9 MR. KORNSTEIN: I'll rephrase it, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 BY MR. KORNSTEIN: 12 Q Didn't Sterling Lord tell you that Joe McGinniss 13 had a reputation for integrity? 14 A Yes, he told rr.e that. 15 Q And didn't he also tell you that Joe McGinniss was 16 a solid reporter? 17 A Yes, I believe he said that. 18 Q And didn't he tell you that McGinniss would be 19 open-mi nded and look at the facts? 20 A Yes, he did tell me that. 21 Q And didn't he tell you that he had the strength of 22 character to resist pressure put on hin. as to 23 conclusions? 24 A I believe that that — yes, I believe that there 25 was some conversation like that. 200
Q And when you phrased it with Mr. Lord, your concern J* was whether Mr. McGinniss would have the fiber and the backbone to resist pressure put on hire by the government; didn't you? A Yes, I did. Q Did you ever contemplate whether Mr. McGinniss would have the fiber and backbone to resist pressure put on him by yourself about the conclusions in the book? 9 A I didn't think there was any need for that.
10 MR. BOSTWICK: Your Honor, may we approach the 11 bench? 12 THE COURT: With the reporter or without? 13 MR. BOSTWICK: Probably without the reporter 14 would be fine. to 15 (Side-bar conference wi thout the presence of 16 the reporter.) 17 THE COURT: All right, at this time, ladies and 18 gentlemen, we're going to adjourn and reconvene tomorrow 19 at 9:00 and work from 9:00 to 12:00 and 1:00 to 3:00 and 20 be finished at 3 o'clock. 21 Remember the admonition of the Court. 22 You're excused until tomorrow at 9:00 o'clock. 23 THE CLERK: All rise. This Court is adjourned 24 until 9:00 A.M. tomorrow morning. 25 (Court adjourned for the day.) "2¥T f
I certify that the foregoing is a true and correct transcript of proceedings had on the record in the above-entitled matter.
9 10 11 <*pt£C<:^ ?^7 12 Official Court Reporter Date 13 14 15 16 17 IS 19 20 21 ' 22 23 24 25