229 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [24 AUG. 1994] Amendment Bill, 1994 230

How can you have a Bill which goes against the basic premise of the Constitution? The framers of the Constitution have said that reservation has to be given to minorities, that is ministry quantum you cannot give up to 69% . ..(nterruption)... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: May I bring it to your notice? One second... (Interruption)... One minute please. Let me he heard ...(Interruption)...Please, Mr. Mehta, you THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I wish you have a right to speak on any Bill which comes all the best. I wish you remained in the seat before this House. Nobody is trying to take next to me in the coming year... away your right from speaking on any Bill. I (Interruption)... am only asking you to speak at an appropriate time. I have allowed the Minister to introduce the Bill and I am also going to ask him to request for passing the Bill. If you want to speak, you will be allowed to speak. There is THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I canot say no objection. You will be allowed to speak but that I don't want him to sit next to me. not at this time. I would request you SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: He can sit ...(Interruption)..Mr. Jogi, I can understand opposite to you. your concern. 1 am handling the situation. If you can handle the situation, you better come THE CONSTITUTION (EIGHTY-FIFTH) here and do this. AMENDMENT BILL, 1994 SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Madam, what I am saying is that it is outside the legislative competence of this House. I have to raise this objection now itself...(Interruption)...It is outside the THE MINISTER OF WELFARE (SHRI legislative competence of this House. SITARAM KESRI): Madam, I beg to move: THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Never "That the Bill further to amend the mind. Constitution of be taken into SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: consideration.'' Therefore, kindly allow me to... (Interruption)... SHRI SATISH PRADHAN (Mahrashtra): THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: If you are Madam, where is the Bill? proposing to oppose the introduction of the Bill, I have no objection. As a Member of this

House, you have a right to oppose. SHRI G. SWAMINATHAN (Tamil Nadu): Now, the question is: The Bill has been sent... (Interruptions)... "That leave to granted to introduce a Bill THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr further to amend the Constitution of India," Swaminathan, please...(Interruptions)...Mr. The motion was adopted. Swaminathan, please sit down. I don't want this kind of unruly behaviour in the House. If one SHRI SITARAM KESRI: Madam, I Member didn't receive the copy of the Bill, we introduce the Bill. will provide it to him...(Interruptions)...Okay, THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now the it is sent to you, not to him. All right. Why do Bill is introduced...(Interruption)...You have you object to it? Let him get it. What is the not opposed the introduction of the Bill. 231 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [] Amendment Bill. 1994 232

objection? Let him also read it. If he is passing chamber... it, he is helping it. So, let him read it also. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Not my There is no problem. chamber. Chairman's chamber. SHRI : ...and decide that nobody in the House will speak. This is something I cannot accept. I am supportive of the Bill but this practice that the debate should be barred like this is a very bad practice... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It was decided by the leaders of the parties. It is not my decision at all. Don't make a bad precedent all the time...(Interruptions).., if the House doesn't want him to read fine. It is entirely up to the House. THE MINISTER OF STATE OF THE MINISTRY OF SURFACE TRANSPORT (SHRI JAGDISH TYTLER): Madam, he has to make a statement on it...(Interruptions)... THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF WELFARE (SHRI K.V. THANGKA BALU): He is introducing a Bill. Everytime it is introduced, he has to speak... (Interruptions)... SHRI MA. BABY (Kerala): Madam, it may be laid on the Table of the House.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: All right, it may be laid on the Table of the Wouss...(Interruptions)... SHRI INDER KUMAR GUJRAL (): Madam, I am on a point of order. I am supportive of the Bill but there is one thing. I think this is a bad precedent that people should get into your 233 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [24 AUG. 1994] Amendment Rill, 1994 234

you read it, the Opposition Members will also say that they will also speak...(Interruptions*)... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: One minute ...(Interruption)...No, no.. Let me explain. Just one minute, please sit down. You just don't get agitated. We are getting a Bill. Don't cry. let me explain the difference between an ordinary Bill and a Constitution Amendment Bill. In the case of an ordinary Bill. I can ask him not to speak. But, when he is making a Constitutional amendment proposal before the House he has to e x p l a i n why he has to say it is passed.. .(Interruptions)...

It is the provision of the Constitution Amendment Bill that it has to be recorded There will be a division. So, I am explaining to you that in the case of a Constitution Amendment Bill the Minster has to explain. We can't lake it as an o r d i n a r y THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: This is not a BilI...(interruptions)...It is part of the precedent. It is on a special consideration that it requirement. is being allowed this way. So, in any case, on any other Bill, Members will be speaking in the normal manner...(Interruptions)...

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is not me. It is the provision of the law.

SHRI GURDAS DAS GUPTA: (West Bengal): Madam, as you said at the beginning. I agree with you. The House is almost unanimous on this. If the hon. Minister is given SHRI JAGDISH TYTLER: Such an an opportunity to explain to us the necessity of experienced parliamentarian is speaking like introducing the Bill, then there may be also this! This is not for the first time it is happening. some opportunity given to other Members to The Bill has been introduced here. He has to speak. say why they should support the Bill. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Nobody is taking this opportunity.

SHRI G. SWANINATHAN: Madam when THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS the Minister is speaking they will also speak. I (SHRI S.B. CHAVAN): Madam, may I say would request the Minister to allow the passing something? In keeping with the spirit of the of the Bill. Not everybody is speaking... When decision which we had taken in the BAC, it will be in the fitness of things even if the † [ ] Transliteration in Arabic Script. Minister would say that he will lay his speech 235 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth.) [RAJYA SABHA] Amendment Bill. 1994 236 on the Table of the House, he need not read decision taken by the leaders of all the parties. the speech either. So...... (Interruptions)... This was a unanimous decision taken by the leaders of all the parties. It has to be accepted. SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN If he does not accept his own leader's decision, (Maharashtra): He should make a speech, let him quarrel with his leader privately. My which you have already accepted. ... point is this, Madam. In regard to this (Interruptions)... Reservation Bill, it has already been decided THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: that there would be no discussion. We are very anxious to see thai this Bill is passed immediately. If we start discussing, if Mr. Baby, let the Leader of the House to everybody starts speaking, we may not pass speak. If you want to speak who is preventing the Bill. This is our only worry. As far as the you from speaking? I can't keep on changing reservation issue is concerned, it is known to the rules every time. ...(Interruptions)... all the people. The people of Tamil Nadu know SHRI INDER KUMAR GUJRAL: fully well about reservation for the last one Madam, may I raise a point of order? While I hundred years. There is no need to explain it to am in favour of what you are deciding and them. Nobody from this House need to tell what the House is deciding, I am the supporter them. of the Bill, I repeat. You see, debates in this I would, therefore, request the hon. House are not only confined to this House only. Minister not to make a statement. If the hon. We are taking a vital decision. The public also Minister starts making a speech, wants to know why we are doing it. If we don't unnecessarily, there would be a debate and the debate how could you educate the people? I passing of this Bill would be delayed. am very sorry that we rush into this. The House Therefore, Madam, please ensure that the could have been extended easily for 23 days decision of the leaders of all the parties is and the debate could have been held because implemented. It has been accepted by the how will a man outside know? leaders of all the parties including the Leader THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Why not? of the House. Now, it is not correct for the Let him finish ...... (Interruptions).... Leader of the House to say this. It is not our decision alone. It is also your decision. Please SHRI INDER KUMAR GUJRAL: I am implement your decision. This is what we are submitting that basically it is a question of asking. (Interruptions) passing of such a vital Bill which has large THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am implications and which might go to courts. I allowing Mrs. Margaret Alva to speak. am supporting the Bill. I will vote for the Bill. But, at the same time, I may say that this is THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE something by which public education will not MINISTRY OF PERSONNEL, PUBLIC come, people will not know why we did it, GRIEVANCES AND PENSIONS AND THE how we did it. MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS SHRI G. SWAMINATHAN: Madam, (SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA): Madam, please allow me to say a few words. none of us is saying that people should not THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Leader know as to why it is being done. It is a of the House has to explain. You are not the Constitution (Amendment) Bill. As Mr. Gujra! Leader of the House. You did not call the has said, it may be challenged tomorrow. The meeting. He did it. He can explain. objectives and reasons behind this legislation SHRI G. SWAMINATHAN: You have have to be explained before the House. There allowed another Member to speak. has to be a record. Therefore, let the Minister, (Interruptions) When you have allowed Mr. at least, lay it on the Table of the House. Let it Gujral, let me also say something, Madam, be laid on the Table of the House. Just only one word I like to say. This was the (Interruptions) 237 The Constitution {Eighty-Fifth) [24 AUG. 1994] Amendment Bill, 1994 238

SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA: What the Minister has to say has to be on record.

Many a time was have sat through the night to pass important Bills. Therefore, we can sit for this also. There is no problem. (Interruptions) SHRI SITARAM KESRI: Madam Deputy Chairman, it gives me great pleasure to request this august House to consider and pass the Constitution (Eighty-Fifth Amendment) Bill to include the Tamil Nadu Backward Classes, Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Interruptions)

SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY (Andhra Pradesh): Madam, I am on a point of order. (Interruptions) I have not got a copy of the Bill. (Interruptions) I am on a point of order,

. They want to raise a point of order. (interruptions) SYED SIBTEY RAZI (Uttar Pradesh): Madam, I take strong objection to this. He has no right to say this. Madam. (Interruptions) 239. The constitution (Eighty- Fifth) [RAJYA SABHA] Amendment Bill. 1994 240

SHRI VAYALAR RAVI (Kerala): No, no. We don't want it ...(Interruptions)... SHRI DIGVJAY SINGH (Bihar): They should know how to run Parliament. Are they Ministers or....?... (Interruptions)... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please ...(Interruptions)... SHRI PARMOD MAHAJAN: Madam, to put the record straight, we have not changed our stand. When the Minister insisted that he wants to make a speech... (Interruptions)... SHRI KV. THANGKA BALU: We are going according to the rules. It is a convention ...(Interruptions)... SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: You quote the rule, which rule you are following ... cannot hear you. There is a point (Interruptions)... or order ...(Interruptions)... Just one minute, SHRI S.K.T. RAMACHANDRAN please Kesriji, there is a p o i n t of order . (Tamil Nadu): Why should we fight? we (Interruptions).. should come to a decision ... (Interruptions)... SHRI SIKANDER BAKHT: Ask the we want the Bill to be passed immediately ... Minister to sit down. ...fInterruptions)... (Interruptions)... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: One minute, please ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: Now it seems ...(Interruptions)... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have one request to make to the Members. If you please sit quietly, then I can dispose of the point of order, if it is raised, and I can give my opinion.

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: Madam, it was decided at the leaders' meeting to pass it without discussion ... (Interruptions)... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I request every body to sit down. SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: Now it seems the Governemnt has changed its stand, SHRI S. VIDUTHALAI VIRUMBI: I and they want a discussion in the House. request all the Members and the Ministers to 241 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [24 AUG. 1994] Amendment Bill. 1994 242 see that the Bill is passed without discussion. ...(Interruptions)... SHRI S.B. CHAVAN: Madam, I request _ Let all the political parties including my own THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Leader of the House is saying something. Jaipalji, the party, which are supporting this Bill, explain Leader of the House is saying something. Let to the people why we have suporled it. him speak. He wants to say something. Otherwise, only the Minister will claim SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: Madam, let the Leader of the House speak after hearing us. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Let the Leader of the House say what he wants to say. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He is not I cannot decide the time at which he should objecting to it. He is not objecting to it. speak. I am asking Jaipalji to speak. .. SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: I am (Interruptions)... requesting him. SHRI S.B. CHAVAN: I request the hon. Members from both sides of the House. We had taken the decision in the BAC. We are SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: He is not very keen that this Bill should be passed not objecting to it. If the Government is ready for a only here but by the other House also. We discussion, then, let us decide the duration and have the formality of giving some reasons why start the discussion. we are bringing this kind of Constitution Amendment. That is why it should be placed SHRI S.B. CHAVAN: Will the hon. on record. That is why I request Mr. Kesri not Member be accepting what his leader.... to read his speech but to lay it on the Table of SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: Chavan Saheb, the House. ...(Interruptions)... I am really why don't you listen to me? surprised. ...(Interruptions)... May I request SHRI S.B. CHAVAN: I hav a discussion you to let me finish my argument? ... with Sikander Bakht Saheb just now, in which (Interruptions)... both of us have generally agreed that the Let me finish my argument. speech be laid on the Table of the House. You SHRI GURUDAS DAS GUPTA: We say that you are not accepting that position. agree to the suggestion of Mr. Chavan. We SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: I do not agree with you. ...(Interruptions)... need Congress people to teach me. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The dignity SHRI S.B. CHAVAN: I think we have to of the House is at issue. Listen to him. What find a way out. That is why, in order to avoid is this? When the Leader of the House is saying ...(Interruptions)... something, you should have the courtesy to listen to him. What are you doing? Listen to SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: Making or him first. laying the speech is the same thing ...(Interruptions)... PROF. VIJAY KUMAR MALHOTRA: It will go to the press. ...(Interruptions)...

SHRI S.B. CHAVAN: Actually, we are not opposed to the discussion at all. 243 The Constitution {Eighty-Fifth) [RAJYA SABHA] Amendment Bill, 1994 244

SHRI G. SWAMINATHAN: Madam, I am up before the High Court of Madras in a writ on a point of order. (Interruptions) You please petition. The High Court of Madras held that allow me. The Bill has already been circulated the Tamil Nadu Government could continue its and has become a public document. reservation policy as hitherto followed during (Interruptions) that academic year and that the quantum * of THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have a reservation should be brough down to 50 per suggestion to all the leaders and Members of cent, during the academic year 1994 95. The the House. (Interruptions) I have a suggestion Government of Tamil Nadu had filed a special that we can adjourn the House for fifteen leave petition against the High Court of Madras minutes and discuss it in my chamber and then in order that the present reservation policy of come to a solution. the State Government should be reaffirmed so as to ensure continued advancement of the SHRI G. SWAMINATHAN: Please, do Bckward Classes. However, the Supreme Court not adjourn the House. of India passed an interim order reiterating that The House then adjourned at thirty six the reservation should not exceed 50 per cent in minutes past twelve of the clock. the matter of admission to educational institutions. The House reassembled at fortynine minutes past twelve of the clock. In the special session of Tamil Nadu Legislative Assembly held on 9th November, [THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the 1993, it had been unanimously resolved to call Chair.] upon the Central Government to take steps THE CONSTITUTION immediately to bring a suitable amendment to (EIGHTY-FIFTH) AMENDMENT BILL, the Constitution of India as to enable the 1994—Contd. Government of Tamil Nadu to continue its policy of 69 per cent, reservation in Government services and for admission in educational institutions as at present. An all parties meeting had also been held on 26th November, 1993 in Tamil Nadu urging that there should not be any SHRI SITARAM KESRI: Madam Deputy doubt or delay in ensuring the continued Chairman, the policy of reservation of seats in implementation of 69 per cent reservation for educational institutions and reservation of the welfare and advancement of the backward appointments or posts in public services for classes. Backward Classes, Scheduled Castes and The Tamil Nadu Government enacted a Scheduled Tribes has had a long history in Tamil legislation namely, Tamil Nadu Backward Nadu dating back to the year 1921. The extent of Classes, Scheduled Castes and Scheduled reservation has been increased by the State Tribes (Reservation of Seats in Educational Government from time to time, consistent with Institution and of appointments or posts in the the needs of the majority of the people and it has Services under the State) Bill, 1993 and now reached the level of 69 per cent, IS per cent forward it to the Government of India for for Scheduled Castes, 1 per cent for Scheduled consideration of the President of India in terms Tribes and 50 per cent for Other Backward ofarticle 31-C of the Constitution. Classes. The Supreme Court delivered its judgment in In view of the importance and sensitive the Indira Sawhney and others Vs. Union of nature of the matter, the Union Home Minister India and others case (AIR 1993 SC 477) on held meetings with the leaders of political 16th November, 1992, holding that the total parties on 13th July, 1994 to discuse the reservations under article 16(4) should not provisions of the Bill. The general consensus exceed 50 per cent. among the leaders was that the Bill should be The issue of admission to educational assented to. Accordingly, the President gave institutions for the academic year 199394 came his assent to the Bill on 19th July, 1994. 245 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [24 AUG. 1994] Amendment Bill. 1994 246

The Tamil Nadu Government accordingly The question was proposed. notified the Tamil Nadu Backward Classes, Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Reservation of Seats in Educational Institutions and of appointments or post in the THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, Services under the State) Act, 1993 as Act everybody has agreed, except Mr. Chimanbhai No. 45 of 1994 on 19th July, 1994. Mehta, not to speak. But Mr. Chimanbhai Mehta has expressed the desire to speak at the The Tamil Nadu Government requested the time of introduction. Mr. Chimanbhai Mehta, do Government of India on 22nd July, 1994 that the you still have a desire to speak or are you aformentioned Tamil Nadu Act 45 of 1994 be withdrawing? included in the Ninth Schedule to the Constitution of India for the reasons given SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA (Gujarat): below:— Madam, I still have a desire to speak. ""The said Act attracts article 31C of the THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay Your Constitution, as falling within the purview of desire is accepted. You can speak. clauses (b) and (c) of article 39 and article 38 SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Madam, I and 46 of the Constitutionvide section 2 of consider this as the saddest day for India after the the Act. Partition of our country. The Act has been passed relying on the AN HON. MEMBER: It is a glorious day. directive principles of State Policy enshrined in THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, I Part IV of the constitution and in particular, would not like any comments please. Mr. Articles 38, 39 (b) and (c) and 46 of the Chimanbhai Mehta has his view-points and he is Constitution. As the Act is to give effect to the in his rights to express his view points. Have directive principles of State policy contained, patience to listen to him so that I can call the inter alia, in article 39(b) and (c), the said Act Chairman to get the Bill passed. will get the protection or article 31C of the Constitution and therefore, cannot be challenged SHRI V. GOPALSAMY (Tamil Nadu): under articles 14 and 19 of the constitution, with What is the time allotted, Madam? reference to which article, 14, the reservation THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There is no exceeding 50 per cent, has been struck down by time allotted. But that does not mean he can the Supreme Court. Now it has been decided to speak the whole day. It is understood. address the Government of India for including the SHRI S.K.T. RAMACHANDRAN: He is Act in the Ninth Schedule to the Constitution, so indulging in filibustering. that the law cannot be challanged as violative of any of the fundamental rights contained in SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: I am not Part III of the Constitution including articles 15 indulging in filibustering. I am precise and to the and 16, and gets protection under article 3 IB of point. the Constitution." I am referring to that event of the history because now we have come to the conclusion The Government of India has already that reservations are inevitable and if they go in supported the provision of the State legislation by proportion to the number of castes, that is also giving the President's assent to the Tamil Nadu inevitable. When the Act was passed by Tamil Bill. As a corollary to this decision, it is not Nadu, they were within their competence. They necessary that the Tamil Nadu Act 45 of 1994 passed it. Then it was challenged in the Madras is brought within the purview of the Ninth High Court. Again, the Tamil Nadu Government, Schedule to the Constitution so that it gets went in appeal against the order of the Madras protection under article 3IB of the High Court and in the Supreme Court, the matter Constitution in regard to judicial review. is pending decision. It is sub judice. When the The Bill seeks to achieve the Court is going to decide something in its aforementioned objectives. wisdom, why are we being deprived of the wisdom of the Court? 247 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [RAJYA SABHA] Amendment Bill, 1994 248

Madam, in this country, the Judiciary has SHRI VAYALAR RAVI: I would like to always been respected and the State's two quote Rule 67 of the Rules of Procedure and branches, Parliament and Judiciary, both of Conduct of Business in the Council of States. them have always been held in It says: "If a motion for leave to introduce a high esteem. But, today, what we Bill is opposed, the Chairman, after 1.00 P.M. find is that we are confronting permitting, if he thinks fit, a brief explanatory the judiciary and trying to avoid statement from the member who moves and even the judicial review. What is from the member who opposes the motion, being avoided here is a judicial review of 69 may, without further debate, put the question: per cent reservation, this shows that they are Provided that where a motion is opposed going against justice; they are going against on the ground that the Bill initiates legislation the fundamental principles. The Supreme outside the legislative competence of the Courthas something to say in this regard and Council, the Chairman may permit a full we should hear their views also. In this discussion thereon." On what ground is the connection, what we are trying to do is that hon. Member opposing the Bill? Is he we want to deprive the Supreme Court of its opposing it on merit? He cannot oppose it right of giving its view and verdict and even on merit. If he is opposing it on the basis educating our people. "Be very careful in of legislative competence of the Council of such sensitive matters." I would like to quote States, he has to quote the relevant the Founding Father of the Constitution, Dr. Constitutional provision if he thinks that it is Ambedkar, and what he had said about the ultra vires of the Constitution. (Interruptions) quantum of reservation. Nobody was against reservation to the backward classes. I am not He has not quoted any Constitutional against the reservation for backward classes provision so far. (Interruptions) because that would go against my THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I would philosophy. I am reading out the relevant like to remind the Members, if a point of portion of Dr. Arnbedkar's speech. Dr. order is raised by a Member, it is not raised Ambedkar was, however, for limited before the House. It is raised before the Chair reservation and the illustration he gave, is as and if the Chair has to dispose it of, then let follows: the Chair hear him. If you do not agree with "Supposing, for instance, reservations were his point of order, it is up to you. That is your made for a community or a collection of opinion. But. let me have my view, Okay. communities and the total came to 70 per cent (Interruptions) No, thank you. I don't need of the total posts under the State and only 30 your assistance at the moment. You can per cent posts retained as unreserved, would reserve it for some other time. anybody say that the reservation of 30 per SHRI VAYALAR RAVI: This right of cent, as open to general competition, would the Member has been stated in rule 67. It can be satisfactory from the point of giving effect be opposed if it is beyond the scope of the to the principle that there shall be an equality Council of States and ultra vires of the of opportunity? It cannot be, in my Constitution. The Member is speaking on the judgment." This is what the Founding Father merit of the Bill. So, the Bill cannot be of the Constitution. opposed on that basis at this stage. Dr. Ambedkar, has said (Interruptions) SHRI (Interruptions) T.A. MOHAMMED SAQHY (Tamil Nadu): THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay. I That was in 1947. We are in 1994 now. heard you. The thing is, Mr. Chimanbhai (Interruptions) Mehta opposed the Bill at the introduction SHRI VAYALAR RAVI: Madam, I am stage and 1 told him that he may raise his on a point of order. (Interruptions) objections about the Bill at an appropriate SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Madam, time when it comes up for discussion. have you permitted him? (Interruptions) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He is on a He has a right to speak at this point of point of order. Let him speak. time because he is speaking as a Member of this House. He can speak. That is his opinion. You 249 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [24 AUG. 1994] Amendment Bill. 1994 250

may not agree with it. Let him give his opinion. fairly. The power conferred by clasue (4) of article 16, that is, the provision for making reservation for backward classes, should also be exercised in a fair manner and within reasonable limits and what is more reasonable THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I don't know than to say that the reservation under clause whether it is video-recorded. (Interruptions)... (4) shall not exceed 50%? No. no. Video has nothing to do with the length THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: of the bhashan. It depends on my discretion. Chimanbhaiji, will you be brief? There is no SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Dr. Kaka time allotted for this Bill. Whatever you are Kalelkar was the Chairman of the first speaking is at the expense of other business in Backward Classes Commission. When he the House. So, I will be thankful to you if you submitted his report, in his letter to Pandit abide by my request. and the President, he said: SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: I know "I am definitely against the reservation that I am speaking when the entire House is in Government services for the simple on the one side and I am on the other side. It reason that the services are not meant for is unfortunate. You might be knowing... the servants but they are meant for the SHRI JAGESH DESAI: Is there anything service to the society as a whole.'' new? This is also from the letter of the Chairman SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: There is of the first backward Classes Commission. The nothing new. But let the people of India know Jawaharlal Nehru wrote in 1961 to the Chief Ministers: that all these things are put here. "I dislike any kind of reservation, more SHRI T.A. MOHAMMED SAQHY: Yes, particularly in the services. I react strongly they have accepted it. against anything which is least efficient and SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: The apex secondary in standards. The only real way court also pointed out that... (Interruptions). to help the backward group is to give ..reservation should be confined to the opportunities for a good education. But if monorities. It is thus clear that reservation for we go in for reservation on communal and majority was never envisaged by the casts basis, we swamp the bright and able Founding Father of the Cmstitution. people and make them remain second-rate (Interruptions).... and third-rate citizens.'' SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: You are not SHRI T.A. MOHAMMED SAQHY: We bothered about Tamil Nadu. disagree with this opinion of Panditji. Do you want that? SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Now the question of Tamil Nadu has gone to the SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Having all Supreme Court, they thought it was that 50% this in our hands, at least the Founding Father, .... (Interruptions).... Ambedkar, had never said it because the basic thing was that reservation had to be for the SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Madam, he is minority quantum otherwise, if it exceeds 50% very tired. Let him conclude. it sacrifices the principle of equal opportunity. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Here the Constitution is being infringed. Here Gopalsamy, we know that you have come to the Supreme court is defending the constitution. the House after a long absence. Therefore, it has laid down the 50% limit. The But that should not be at the expense of Supreme Court did say this, the Supreme Court Mr Mehta (Interruptions)... in its judgment of 16th November, 1992 regarding reservation in services for socially SHRI GURUDAS DAS GUPTA: Madam, and educationally backward classes held that my appeal to the Members is to listen to the every power must be exercised reasonably and voice of dissent. (Interruptions). 251 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [RAJYA SABHA] Amendment Bill. 1994 252

SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Madam he has expressed his opinion. (Interruptions).

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am sorry. I request the Members to keep quiet. SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Madam, I am (Interruptions). If one Member wants to speak, in the only person who is speaking. The point is that the name of democracy, allow him to speak for a you are sacrificing articles 15 (1) and 16 (1). short while. The backward class people can be given the SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Madam, his benefit of articles 15(4) and 16(4) but the class purpose is served. must comprise homogenous groups, the element THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Never mind. of homogeneity should be the backwardness characterising the class. SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Madam, it is also to be noted that even the Mandal THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: If you speak Commission .... (Interruptions). elaborately then the Minister will have to reply to your points. Please be brief. (Interruptions). SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Madam, at least, you must know on what rational ground I am thinking and speaking and what reason I have got to go against this huge majority. (Interruptions). SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: It should also THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am asking be noted that even the Mandal Commission has him to conclude. Mr. Mehta, I can't give you recommended only 27 per cent reservation for the more than one minute. backward classes, although it argued that by virture of the population strength higher reservation can SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Madam be thought of. The Chief Minister of Tamil ....(Interruptions). Nadu said, "There are 88 per cent backward class THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am sorry, I people therefore, the quantum should be raised". cannot allow you any more. The Mandal Commission also thought that 50 SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: I am going per cent overall limit and 27 per cent for OBCs to conclude. I have to say many things was a legitimate limit, because the rationale ....(interruptions).... behind the limit is that equality of opportunity is the general rule and reservation being exception, THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mehta, cannot help it. These are the important points. I please finish...(interruptions)... know about the history of reservation in Tamil Nadu. SHRI DIGVIJAY SINGH: Madam, you ask Once there was 30 per cent reservation in Tamil him to lay the papers on the Table... Nadu. Mr MGR thought that there should be a (interruptions)... creamy layer. There is no creamy layer'' in this 69 per cent. The supreme Court is totally ignored. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I don't know what papers he is having. Reservation is subject to the creamy layer demarcation. If there is no ""creamy layer" SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: Madam, I am demarcation no reservation be permitted concluding now. My point is that in the judgement ...(Interruptions). So, at that time, Mr. MGR of the Supreme Court on the Mandal Commission introduced the economic criteria. report, there was a majority judgement and a minority judgement. They insisted that there be a THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mehta, be judicial review. It is precisely to avoid judicial brief. We have to pass this Bill. The Business review of our action by the Supreme Court that Advisory Committee has not allocated any time for this Bill is brought. Let the truth be known. We this. Please conclude now. have never discussed a Supreme Court judgement, whether it is a minority judgement or a majority 253 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [24 AUG. 1994] Amendment Bill. 1994 254 judgement. This is a big question. India was on this issue is over. Please sit down all of partitioned into two in 1947. Now you are you...(interruptions)...1 am not allowing any partitioning this country into hundreds of more. Nowmore discussion ...(interruptions)... groups, both mentally and emotionally. Please sit down. Nothing will go on record now. Casteism has become a philosophy. It is a vote Nobody's speech is going on record bank philosophy. That is why all the parties ..(interruptions)... It is all over. Nothing is which are interested in capturing vote banks going on record. are supporting this 69% reservation. SHRI V. GOPALSAMY:* Therefore... .(interruptions)... SHRI S. VIDUTHALAI S. VIRUMBI:* SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Madam, he cannot SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA:* cast aspersions on a political party. He is casting THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mehta, aspersions on all the political parties. I strongly please keep quiet. Nothing is going on record. object to it. I strongly object to his remarks... Mr. Mehta, please sit down. You have spoken (interruptions).... enought. That is all. Please sit SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA: It is only down.. (interruptions )... Please sit down all for capturing vote banks.,.(interruptions)... of you. SHRI S. VIDUTHALAI VIRUMBI: It is SHRI CHIMANBHAI MEHTA:* not for capturing vote banks. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is not going SHRI V. GOPALASAMY: He ought not to on record. have cast aspersions on the political parties. [MR. CHAIRMAN in the chair] SHRI S. VIDUTHALAI VIRUMBI: He is MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members, unnecessarily casting aspersions ... please, this is a Constitutional Amendment. (interruptions)...We are fighting for those Therefore, let us proceed constitutionally. I people who are oppressed for cen turies. shall now put the motion for consideration of SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: He cannot cast the Bill to vote... (Interruptions) aspersions on the political parties. He is entitled Under Article 368 of the Constitution, the to his views... (interruptions)... motion will have to be adopted by a majority of the total membership of the House and by a THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now the majority of not less than twothirds of the matter is over. Please sit down all of you. Members of the House present and voting. SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Does he know The question is: anything about Tamil Nadu? How can he say that we are doing all this for capturing vote "That the Bill further to amend the banks? Constitution of India be taken into consideration." SHRI S VIDUTHALAI VIRUMBI: We are fighting for social justice. We are working for The House divided. those people who are oppressed for MR. CHAIRMAN: Ayes ... 147 centuries... (interruptions)... Noes.... 2 SHRI A. NALLASIVAN (TAMILNADU): 'Ayes' 147 Madam, he had his say. Let him conclude. Adik, Shri Govindrao SHRI S. VIDUTHALAI VIRUMBI: Agarwal, Shri Lakkhiram Cutting across party lines, everbody has Aggarwal, Shri Satish supported this Bill... (interruptions)... Agarwalla, Shri Parmeshwar Kumar SHRI V GOPALSAMY: Madam, I have Alva, Shrimati Margaret to register my protest against his remarks. He Ambedkar, Shri Prakash Yashwant cast aspersions on all the Member ... Anil Kumar, Shri (interruptions).. Ansari, Shri Jalaludin THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Discussion * Not recorded. 255 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [RAJYA SABHA] Amendment Bill. 1994 256

Antony. Shri A.K. Jaiswal, Shri Anant Ram Austin, Shri S. Jayadevappa, Shri K.R. Azad, Shri Ghulam Nahi Jitendra Pragada, Shri Azmi, Maulana Obaiduliah Khan Jogi, Shri Ajit PK. Babbar, Shri Raj Judev, Shri Dilip Singh Baby, Shri M.A. Kaldale, Dr. Bapu Bakht, Shri Sikander Kalita, Shri Bhubaneswar Balanandan, Shri E. Kalyan, Shri Mohinder Singh Barik, Shri Rahasbihari Katara Shri Kamak Mal Barongpa, Shri Sushil Kataria, Shri Virendra Basu, Shri Nilotpal Kesri, Shri Sitaram Bhandari, Shir Ram Deo Khan, Shri KM. Bhandari, Shri Sunder Singh Khan, Shri K. Rahman Bhardwaj, Shri Hansraj Khan, Shri Mohd. Masud Bhatia. Shri Madan Kiruttinan, Shri Pasumpon The. Bisi, Shri Sanatan Kohli, Shri O.P. Birla, Shri Krishna Kumar Kore, Shri Prabhakar B. Biswas, SlHi Debabrata Korwar, Shri Gundappa Chanpuria, Shri Shivprasad Chavan, Shri S.B. Kovind, Shri Ram Nath Chellappa, Shri V. Rajan Koya, Shri B.V. Abdulla Dard, Shri Jagir Singh Krishnan, Shri G.Y. Dasgupta, Dr. Biplab Ledger, Shri David Das Gupta, Shri Gurudas Mahajan, Shri Pramod Dave, Shri Anantray Devshanker Mahendra Prasad, Shri Deo, Shri V. Kishore Chandra S. Maheshwari, Shrimati Sarala Desai, Shri Jagesh Malaviya, Shri Radhakishan Dhawan, Shri R.K. Malaviya, Shri Satya Prakash Dronamraju, Shri Satynarayana Mani, Shri S. Muthu Fernandes, Shri John F. Matang Singh, Shri Gadgil, Shri V.N. Md. Salim, Shri Ganesan, Shri Misa R. Meena, Shri Moolchand Gautam, Shri Sangh Priya Miri, Shri Govindram Gohain, Shri Bhadreswar Mishra, Shri Chaturanan Gopalsamy, Shri V. Mishra, Dr. Jagannath Goswami, Shri Ramnarayan Misra, Shri Janeshwar Gujral, Shri Inder Kumar Mitra, Shri Ashok Gupta, Dr. Ishwar Chandra Mohammed Afzal Alias Meem Afzal, Shri Hanumanthappa, Shri H. Mohanty, Shri Sarda Hariprasad, Shri B.K. Mukherjee, Shri Dipankar Heptulla, Dr. (Shrimati) Najma Nallasivan, Shri A. Iqbal Singh, Shri Nomani, Maulana Habibur Rahman 257 The Constitution (Eighty Fifth) [24 AUG. 1994] Amendment Bill. 1494 258

Pandey. Shrimati Chandra Kala Solanki, Shri Madbavsinh Pandian, Shri N. Thangaraj Surjewala, Shri S.S. Parmar. Shri Rajubhai A. Swaminathan, Shri G. Paswan, Shri Kameshwar Swell, Shri G.G. Thakur. Shir Rameshwar Patel, Shri Ahmed Mohmedbhai Upendra, Shri P. Patel Shrimati Anandiben Jethabhai Veerappan, Shri K. K. Patil. Shri Gopalrao Vithalrao Verma, Shrimati Veena Pillai, Shri Rainachandrari Viduthalai Virumbi, Shri S. Pillai, Shri Thennala Balakrishan Yadav, Shri Ish Dutt Poojary, Shri Janardhana Yadav. Shri Janardan Pradhan, Shri Narendra Yadav, Shri Naresh Rai. Shri Ratna Bahadur Yadav, Shri Ram Gopal Yerra Narayanaswamy, Shri Rajagopal, Shri O. Yonggam, Shri Nyodek Ram Ratan Ram, Shri 'Noes'—2 Ramachandran, Shri S.K.T. Pradhan, Shri Satish Mehta, Ramji Lal, Shri Shri Chimanbhai The motion was carried by a majority of Rao, Shri V. Hanumarttha the total membership of the House and by a Ravi, Shri Vayalar majority of not less than two-thirds of the Razi, Syed Sibley Members present and voting. MR. CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up Reddy, Shri S. Jaipal clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill. Roy, Shri Jibon The question is: Sahu, Shri Rajni Ranjan "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill." .Salve, Shri N.K.P, 'The House divided Sarnantaray. Shri Pravat Kumar MR. CHAIRMAN: Ayes ...... Sanadi, Pro!'. LG. 147 Saqhy, Shri T.A, Mohammed Noes ...... 2 Sarang, Shri Kailash Narain 'Ayes' 147 Sarma, Shrimati Basanti Adik, Shri Govindrao Sayced, Mufti Moh. Agarwal, Shri Lakkhiram Sarma, Shri Krishan Lal Agarwal, Shri Satish Sharma, Shrimati Malti Agarwalla, Shri Parmeshwar Kumar Sharma, Shri Venod Alva, Shrimati Margaret Sbastri, Shri Vishnu Kant Ambedkar, Shri Prakash Yashwant Shinde, Shri Susbilkumar Sambhajirao Anil Kumar, Shri Singh, Shri Digvijay Ansari. Shri Jalaludin Singh, Dr. Naunihal Antony, Shri A.K. Singh Dr. Ranbir Austin, Shri S. Singh, Shri Raj Nath Azad, Shri Ghulam Nabi Singh, Shri Shankar Dayal Azmi, Maulana Obaidullah Khan Smgla, Shri Surinder Kumar Babbar, Shri Raj Sinha, Shrimati Kamla Baby, Shri MA. Bakht, Shri Sikander Balanandan, Shri E. Bank, Shri Rahasbihari 259 The Constitution ( Eighty-Fifth} [RAJYA SABHA] Amendment Bill, 1994 260

Barongpa, Shri Sushil Katara, Shri Kanak Mal Basu. Shri Nilotpal Kataria, Shri Virendra Bhandari, Shri Ram Deo Kesri, .Shri Sitaram Bhandari, Shri Sunder Singh Khan, Shri K.M. Bhardwaj, Shri Hansraj Khan, Shri K. Rahman Bhatia, Shri Madan Khan, Shri Mohd. Masud Bisi, Shri Sanatan Kiruttinan, Shri Pasumpon Tha. Birla, Shri Krishna Kumar Kohli, Shri OP. Biswas, Shri Dehabrata Kore, Shri Prabhakar B. Chanpuria, Shri Shivprasad Korwar, Shri Gundappa Chavan, Shri SB. Kovind, Shri Rani Nath Chellappa, Shri V. Rajan Krishnan, Shri G.Y. Dard, Shri Jagir Singh (Punjab) Ledger, Shri David Dasgupta, Dr. Biplab Mahajan, Shri Pramod Das Gupta, Shri Gurudas Mahendra Prasad, Shri Dave, Shri Anantray Devshanker Maheshwari, Shrimati Sarala(West Deo, Shri V. Kishore Chandra S. Bengal) Desai, Shri Jagesh Malaviya, Shri Radhakishan Dhawan, Shri R.K. Malaviya, Shri Satya Prakash Dronamraju. Shri Satyanarayana Mani, Shri S. Muthu Fernandes, Shri John F. Matang Sinh, Shri (Assam) Gadgil, Shri Vithal Narhar Md. Salim, Shri Ganesan, Shri Misa R. Meena, Shri Moolchand Gautam, Shri Sangh Priya Miri, Shri Govindram Gohain, Shri Bhareswar Mishra, Shri Chaturanan Gopalsamy, Shri V. Mishra, Shri Jagannath Goswami, Shri Ramnarayan Misra, Shri Janeshwar Gujral, Shri Inder Kumar Mitra Shri Ashok Gupta, Dr. Ishwar Chandra Mohammed Afzal Alias Meem Afzal, Shri Hanumanthappa, Shri H. Mohanty, Shri Sarada Hariprasad, Shri B.K. Mukherjee, Shri Dipankar Heptulla, Dr. {Shrimati) Najma Nallasivan, Shri A. (Tamil Nadu) Iqbal Singh, Shri Nomani, Maulana Habibur Rahman Jaiswal, Shri Anant Ram (Nominated) Jayadevappa, Shri K.R. Pandey, Shrimati Chandra Kala Jitendra Prasada, Shri Pandian, Shri N. Thangaraj Jogi, Shri Ajit P.K. Parmar, Shri Rajubhai A. Judev, Shri Dilip Singh Paswan, Shri Kameshwar Kaldate, Dr. Bapu Patel, Shri Ahmed Mohmedbhai Kalita, Shri Bhubaneswar Patel, Shrimati Anandiben Jethabhai Kalyan, Shri Mohindar Singh Patil, Shri Gopalrao Vithalrao Pillai, Shri Ramachandran 261 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [24 AUG. 1994] Amendment Bill. 1994 262

Pillai, Shri Thennala Balakrishna Verma, Shrimati Veena Viduthalai Poojary, Shri Janardhana Virumbi, Shri S. Yadav, Shri Ish Dutt Yadav, Shri Janardan Yadav Shri Pradhan, Shri Narendra Naresh Yadav, Shri Ram Gopal Yerra, Raghavji, Shri Narayanaswamy Shri (Andhra Pradesh) Rai, Shri Ratna Bahadur Yonggam, Shri Nyodek (Arunachal Pradesh) Rajagopal. Shri O. 'Noes'—2 Ram Ratan Ram, Shri Mehta, Shri Chimanbhai Ramachandran, Shri S.K.T. Pradhan, Shri Satish Ramji Lal, Shri The motion was carried by a majority of the total membership of the House and by a Rao, Shri V. Hanumantha majority of not less than two-thirds of the Ravi Shri Vayalar Members present and voting. Razi, Syed Sibtey (Uttar Pradesh) Clause 2 was added to the Bill. Reddy, Shri S. Jaipal Clause 1 — Short Title Roy, Shri Jibon MR. CHAIRMAN: We shall now take up Sahu, Shri Rajni Ranjan Clause 1. There is one amendment by Shri Salve, Shri N.K.P. (Maharashtra) Sitaram Kesari. Samantaray Shri Pravat Kumar SHRI SITARAM KESRI: Sir, I beg to move: Sanadi, Prof. I.G. "That at page 1, lines 3—4 for the Saqhy, Shri T.A. Mohammed bracket, words and figure "(Eighty Sarang, Shri Kailash Narain fifth Amendment Act, 1994" the Sarma, Shrimati Basanti bracket, words and figure "(Seventy- sixth Amendment) Act, 1994" be Sayeed, Mufti Mohd. substituted." Sharma, Shri Krishan Lal The question was put and the motion Sharma, Shrimati Malti was adopted. Sharma, Shri Venod MR. CHAIRMAN: I shall now put clause 1, Shastri, Shri Vishnu Kant as amended, to vote. The question is: Shinde, Shri Sushilleumar Sambhajirao "That Clause 1, as amended, Singh, Shri Digvijay stand part of the Bill." Singh, Dr. Naunihal Singh, Dr. Ranbir The House divided. Singh, Shri Raj Nath MR. CHAIRMAN: Ayes ... 148 Singh, Shri Shankar Dayal Noes ... 1 Singla, Shri Surinder Kumar 'Ayes' - 148 Sinha, Shrimati Kamla Adik, Shri Govindrao Agarwal, Shri Lakkhiram Solanki, Shri Madhavsinh Agarwal, Shri Satish Surjewala, Shri S.S. Agarwalla, Shri Parmeshwar Kumar Swaminathan, Shri G. Alva, Shrimati Margaret Swell, Shri G.G. Thakur, Shri Rameshwar Upendra, Shri P. Veerappan, Shri K.K. (Tamil Nadu) 263 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [RAJYA SABHA] Amendment Bill, 1994 264

Ambedkar, Shri Prakash Yashwant Hanumanthappa, Shri H. Anil Kumar, Shri Hariprasad, Shri B.K. Ansari, Shri Jalaludin Heptulla, Dr. (Shrimati) Najma Anlony. Shri A.K. Iqbal Singh, Shri Austin. Shri S. Jaiswal. Shri Anant Ram Azad, Shri Ghulam Nabi Jayadevappa, Shri KR. Azmi, Maulana Obaidullah Khan Jitendra Pragada, Shri Bahhiir, Shri Raj Jogi, Shri Ajit P.K. Baby. Shri MA. Judev, Shri Dillip Singh Dakht. Shri Sikander Kaldate. Dr., Bapu Balanandan. Shri E. Kalita, Shri Bhubaneswar Barik. Rahasbihari Kalyan, Shri Mohindar Singh Barongpa, Shri Sushil Katara, Shri Kanak Mal Basu, Shri Nilotpal Kataria, Shri Virendra Bhandari. Shri Ram Deo Kesri, Shri Sitaram Bhandari, Shri Sunder Singh Khan Shri KM. Bhardwaj, Shri Hansraj Khan, Shri K. Rahman Bhatia. Shri Madan Khan. Shri Mohd. Masud Bisi. Shri Sanatan Kiruttinan, Shri Pasumpon Tha. Birla, Shri Krishna Kumar Kohli, Shri O.P. Biswas, Shri Debabrata Kore. Shri Prabhakar B. Chanpuria, Shri Shivprasad Korwar, Shri Gundappa Chavan, Shri S.B. Kovind, Shri Ram Nath Chellappa, Shri V. Rajan Koya, Shri B.V. Abdulla Dard. Shri Jagir Singh Krishnan, Shri G.Y. Dasgupta, Dr. Biplab Ledger. Shri David Das Gupta, Shri Gurudas Mahajan, Shri Pramod Dave, Shri Anantray Devshanker Mahendra Prasad, Shri Deo, Shri V. Kishore Chandra S. Maheshwari, Shrimati Sarala Desai, Shri Jagesh Malaviya, Shri Radhakishan Dhawan, Shri R.K. Malaviya, Shri Satya Prakash Dronamraju, Shri Satyanarayana Mani, Shri S. Muthu Fernandes, Shri John F. Matang Sinh, Shri Gadgil, Shri V.N. Md. Salim, Shri Ganesan, Shri Misa R. Meena, Shri Moolchand Gautam, Shri Sangh Priya Miri, Shri Govindram Gohain, Shri Bhadreswar Mishra, Shri Chaturanan Gopalsamy, Shri V. Mishra, Dr. Jagannath Goswami, Shri Ramnarayan Misra, Shri Janeshwat Gujral, Shri Inder Kumar Mitra, Shri Ashok Gupta, Dr. Ishwar Chandra Mohammed Afzal Alias Meem Afzal, Shri 265 The Constitution {Eighty-Fifth) [24 AUG. 1994] Amendmmt Bill. 1994 266

Mohanty, Shri Sarada Singh, Dr Ranbir Mukherjee, Shri Dipankar Singh, Shri Raj Nath Nallasivan, Shri A. Singh. Shri Shankar Dayal Nomani, Maulana Habibur Rahman Singla, Shri Surinder Kumar Pandey, Shrimati Chandra Kala Sinha, Shrimati Kamla Pandian, Shri N. Thangaraj Solanki, Shri Madhavsinh Parmar, Shri Rajubhai A. Surjewala. Shri S.S. Paswan, Shri Kameshwar Swaminathan, Shri G. Patel, Shri Ahmed Mohmedbhai Swell, Shri GO. Patel Shrimati Anandiben Jethabhai Thakur, Shri Rameshwar Patil, Shri Gopalrao Vithalrao Upendra, Shri P. Pillai, Shri Ramachandran Veerappan, Shri K.K Pillai, Shri Thennala Balakrishan Verma, Shrimati Veena Poojary, Shri Janardhana Pradhan, Shri Narendra Viduthalai Virumbi, Shri S. Raghavji, Shri Yadav Shri Ish Dutt Rai, Shri Ratna Bahadur Yadav, Shri Janardan Rajagopal, Shri O. Yadav. Shri Naresh Ram Ratan Ram, Shri Yadav, Shri Ram Gopal Ramachandran, Shri S.K.T. Yerra Narayanaswamy, Shri Ramji Lal, Shri Yonggam, Shri Nyodek Rao, Shri V. Hanumantha Ravi, Shri Vayalar 'Noes'—1 Razi, Syed Sibtey Mehta Shri Chimanbhai Reddy, Shri S. Jaipal The motion was carried by a majority of Roy, Shri Jibon the total membership of the House and by a majority of not less than twothirds of the Sahu Shri Rajni Ranjan Members present and voting. Salve, Shri N.K.P. Clause 1, as amended, was added to the Samantaray, Shri Pravat Kumar Bill. Sanadi, Prof. I.G. MR. CHAIRMAN: The question is: Saqhy, Shri T.A. Mohammed Sarang, Shri Kailash Narain "That the Enacting Formula and the Title stand part of the Bill." Sarma, Shrimati Basanti Sayeed, Mufti Mohd. The House decided. Sharma, Shri Krishan Lal MR. CHAIRMAN: Ayes ... 148 Sharma, Shrimati Malti Noes ... 2 Sharma, Shri Venod 'Ayes' — 148 Shastri, Shri Vishnu Kant Adik, Shri Govindrao Shinde, Shri Sushilkumar Sambhajirao Agarwal, Shri Lakkhiram Singh, Shri Digvijay Agarwal, Shri Satish Singh, Dr. Naunihal Agarwalla Shri Parmeshwar Kumar 267 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [RAJYA SABHA] Amendment Bill, 1994 268

Alva, Shrimati Margaret Hanumanthappa, Shri H. Ambedkar, Shri Prakash Yashwant Hariprasad, Shri B.K. Anil Kumar, Shri Heptulla, BT. (Shrimati) Najma Ansari, Shri Jalaludin Iqbal Singh, Shri Antony, Shri A.K. Jaiswal, Shri Anant Ram Austin, Shri S. Jayadevappa, Shri K.R. Azad, Shri Ghulam Nabi Jitendra Prasada, Shri Azmi, Maulana Obaidullah Khan Jogi, Shri Ajit P.K. Babbar, Shri Raj Judev, Shri Dillip Singh Baby, Shri M.A. Bakht, Shri Sikander Kaldate, Dr. Bapu Balanandan, Shri E. KaUta, Shri Bhubaneswar Barik, Shri Rahasbihari Kalyan, Shri Mohindar Singh Barongpa, Shri Sushil Katara, Shri Kanak Mal Basu, Shri Nilotpal Kataria, Shri Virendra Bhandari, Shri Ram Deo Kesri, Shri Sitaram Bhandari, Shri Sunder Singh Khan Shri K.M. Bhardwaj, Shri Hansraj Khan, Shri K. Rahman Bhatia, Shri Madan Khan, Shri Mohd. Masud Bisi, Shri Sanatan Kiruttinan, Shri Pasumpon Tha. Birla, Shri Krishna Kumar Kohli, Shri O.P. Biswas, Shri Debabrata Kore, Shri Prabhakar B. Chanpuria, Shri Shivprasad Korwar, Shri Gundappa Chavan, Shri S.B. Kovind, Shri Ram Nath Chellappa, Shri V. Rajan Krishnan, Shri G.Y. Dard, Shri Jagir Singh Ledger, Shri David Dasgupta, Dr. Biplab Mahajan, Shri Pramod Das Gupta, Shri Gurudas Mahendra Prasad, Shri Dave, Shri Anantray Devshanker Deo, Shri V. Kishore Chandra S. Maheshwari, Shrimati Sarala Desai, Shri Jagesh Malaviya, Shri Radhakishan Dhawan, Shri R.K. Malaviya, Shri Satya Prakash Dronamraju, Shri Satyanarayana Mani, Shri S. Muthu Fernandes, Shri John F. Matang Sinh, Shri Gadgil, Shri Vitbal Narhar Md. Salim, Shri Ganesan, Shri Misa R. Meena, Shri Moolchand Gautam, Shri Sangh Priya Miri, Shri Govindram Gohain, Shri Bhadreswar Mishra, Shri Chaturanan Gopalsamy, Shri V. Mishra, Dr. Jagannath Goswami, Shri Ramnarayan Misra, Shri Janeshwar Gujral, Shri Inder Kumar Mitra, Shri Ashok Gupta, Dr. Ishwar Chandra Mohammed Afzal Alias Meem Afzal, Shri 269 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [24 AUG. 1994] Amendment Bill, 1994 270

Mohamy, Shri Sarada Singh, Dr. Ranbir Mukherjee, Shri Dipankar Singh, Shri Raj Nath Nallasivan, Shri A. Singh, Shri Shankar Dayal Nomani, Maulana Habibur Rahman Singla, Shri Surinder Kumar Pandey, Shrimati Chandra Kala Sinha, Shrimati Kamla Pandian, Shri N. Thangaraj Solanki, Shri Madhavsinh Parmar, Shri Rajubhai A. Surjewala, Shri S.S. Paswan, Shri Kameshwar Swaminathan, Shri G. Patel, Shri Ahmed Mohmedbhai Swell, Shri G.G. Patel Shrimati Anandiben Jethabhai Thakur, Shri Rameshwar Patil, Shri Gopalrao Vithalrao Upendra, Shri P. Pillai, Shri Ramachandran Veerappan, Shri K.K. Pillai, Shri Thennala Balakrishna Verma, Shrimati Veena Poojary, Shri Janardhana Viduthalai Virumbi, Shri S. Pradhan, Shri Narendra Yadav Shri Ish Dutt Raghavji, Shri Yadav, Shri Janardan Rai, Shri Ratna Bahadm Yadav, Shri Naresh Rajagopal, Shri O. Yadav, Shri Ram Gopal Ram Ratan Ram, Shri Yerra Narayanaswamy, Shri Ramachandran, Shri S.K.T. Yonggam, Shri Nyodek Ramji Lal, Shri 'Noes'—2 Rao, Shri V. Hanumantha Mehta, Shri Chimanbhai Ravi, Shri Vayalar Razi, Syed Sibtey Pradhan, Shri Satish Reddy, Shri S. Jaipal The motion was carried by a majority of Roy, Shri Jibon the total membership of the House and by a Sahu Shri Rajni Ranjan majority of not less than twothirds of the Salve, Shri N.K.R Members present and voting. Samantaray.Shri Pravat Kumar MR. CHAIRMAN: The Bill, as amended, is passed by the required majority. Sanadi, Prof. I.G. Saqhy, Shri T.A. Mohammed Thank you very much. The House is adjourned for one hour for lunch. Sarang, Shri Kailash Narain The House then adjourned for lunch at Sarma, Shrimati Basanti fortyfour minutes past one of the clock. Sayeed, Mufti Mohd. Sharma, Shri Krishan Lal {The House ressembled after lunch at Sharma, Shrimati Malti forty six minutes past two of the clock, Sharma, Shri Venod THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN in the Chair] Shastri, Shri Vishnu Kant SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY (Andhra Shinde, Shri Sushilkumar Sambhajirao Pradesh): Madam, I would like to submit one Singh, Shri Digvijay thing. This relates to the sugar issue. I would like to know when it would be taken up because Singh, Dr. Naunihal 271 The Constitution (Eighty-Fifth) [RAJYA SABHA] Amendment Bill, 1994 272 the Prime Minister or whosoever would be Appopriation (Railways) No. 5 Bill, 1994 replying to the debate would be required to be together. available in the other House also. I am told SHRI ANANTRAY DEVSHANKER that he has stated that. We need to take up the DAVE: (Gujarat) what about Special sugar issue. I suggest that a particular time be Mentions, Madam? fixed for it irrespective of the business on the order paper. SYED SIBTEY RAZY (Uttar Praesh): Madam, I would like to say that we have a SHRI RAMACHANDRAN PILLAI (Kerala): What abut the Zero Hour mentions, Minister in charge of the Food Department. He Madam? Give us an idea. will be replying to this. There is no question of taking the name of the Prime Minister and other THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Actually, Ministers, we have a full-fledged the question of Zero Hour does not arise now Department.... (Interruptions) because the hour has passed. We cannot turn the clock back. So, they have to be converted SHRI S. JAIPAL REDDY: I am on the into Special Mentions or we can take them up agenda paper. sometime tomorrow. SYED SIBTEY RAZY: He will give the SHRI RAMACHANDRAN PILLAI: Let reply. us take a decision on that. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I feel that the THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: But point which Mr. Jaipal Reddy is emphasising tomorrow also, I may say, we have a Calling on is this. We have a discussion listed on sugar Attention. We cannot have everything in the also. The Minister in charge of the Food morning. We can have them in the evening. Ministry has said that he would be required in Okay?.. (Interruptions) the tomorrow. He cannot be at two SHRI RAMACHANDRAN PILLAI: places at the same time. So, Mr. Jaipal Reddy important problems are there, Madam. is proposing that we should fix the time so that THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE we can conclude the discussion today. MINISTRY OF PERSONNEL, PUBLIC But, we have the Appropriation (Railways) GRIEVANCES AND PENSIONS AND THE No. 4 Bill and the Appropriation (Railways) MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY No.5 Bill also here before us, and the Minister OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS is here. (SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA): Madam, I suggest that we take up the Discussion we have decided that normally Special on sugar at four O'clock. If the House so Mentions will take place after the day's agrees, we will have a discussion on Railways business is over. In view of the fact that they today till four O'clock. Then we will finish want to finish the discussion on sugar today the Discussion on sugar. We will continue the and there is also a half-an-hour discussion, discussion on the Railways tomorrow. Is it which has been admitted tomorrow and there agreeable to the House? are other items and also the fact that there are only two days left, if some adjustment at least SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes in the case of Zero Hour is made i.e. we do THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: At least the not give time to Zero Hour and finish the House should say "yes" or "no". business and, may be, we take up the Special SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes, yes, Mentions in the evening, perhaps this will help Madair us. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is. such a SHRI M.A. BABY (Kerala): If such feeble support that your proposition is fizzling important issues come up, zero Hour is the out! only avenue available to the hon. Members to Now we will take up the Appropriation voice them, we can sit late and forego the Lunch (Railways) No.4 Bill, 1994 and the Hour, we are prepared to cooperate. 273 The Appropriation (Railways) [24 AUG. 1994] No.. 5 Bill. 1994 27 4

SHRIMATI MARGARET ALVA Let us Railways, as passed by the Lok Sabha, be forego Lunch Hour tomorrow. taken into consideration.'' THE QUESTIONS WERE PROPOSED.

I agree with you.

that should lapse and a new Special Mention should come. On that point I agree with you. It should not be carried forward, carrying forward can be with the Government business. Now, we take up the Appropriation Bills. Shri C.K. Jaffer Shariel.

I. THE APPROPRIATION (RAILWAYS) NO. 4 BILL, 1994

II. THE APPROPRIATION (RAILWAYS) NO. 5 BILL, 1994

THE MINISTER OF RAILWAYS (SHRI C.K. JAFFER SHARIEF): I beg to move:

That the Bill to provide for the authorisation of appropriation of moneys out of the Consolidated Fund of India to meet the amounts spent on certain services for the purposes of Railways during the finnacial year ended on the 31st day of March, 1992 in excess of the amounts granted for those services and for that year, as passed by the Lok Sabha, be taken into consideration." I beg to move:

"That the Bill to authorise payment and appropriation of certain further sums from and out of the consolidated Fund of India for the

services of the financial year 1994-95 for the purposes of