His Honour Judge Peter Smithwick for the Tribunal: Mrs. Mary Laverty
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A P P E A R A N C E S The Sole Member: His Honour Judge Peter Smithwick For the Tribunal: Mrs. Mary Laverty, SC Mr. Justin Dillon, SC Mr. Dara Hayes, BL Mr. Fintan Valentine, BL Instructed by: Jane McKevitt Solicitor For the Commissioner of An Garda Siochana: Mr. Diarmuid McGuinness, SC Mr. Michael Durack, SC Mr. Gareth Baker, BL Instructed by: Mary Cummins CSSO For Owen Corrigan: Mr. Jim O'Callaghan, SC Mr. Darren Lehane, BL Instructed by: Fintan Lawlor Lawlor Partners Solicitors For Leo Colton: Mr. Paul Callan, SC Mr. Eamon Coffey, BL Instructed by: Dermot Lavery Solicitors For Finbarr Hickey: Fionnuala O'Sullivan, BL Instructed by: James MacGuill & Co. For the Attorney General: Ms. Nuala Butler, SC Mr. Douglas Clarke, SC Instructed by: CSSO For Freddie Scappaticci: Niall Mooney, BL Instructed by: Michael Flanigan Solicitor For Kevin Fulton: Mr. Neil Rafferty Instructed by: John McAtamney Solicitor For Breen Family: Mr. John McBurney For Buchanan Family/ Heather Currie: Ernie Waterworth McCartan Turkington Breen Solicitors NOTICE: A WORD INDEX IS PROVIDED AT THE BACK OF THIS TRANSCRIPT. THIS IS A USEFUL INDEXING SYSTEM, WHICH ALLOWS YOU TO QUICKLY SEE THE WORDS USED IN THE TRANSCRIPT, WHERE THEY OCCUR AND HOW OFTEN. EXAMPLE: - DOYLE [2] 30:28 45:17 THE WORD “DOYLE” OCCURS TWICE PAGE 30, LINE 28 PAGE 45, LINE 17 I N D E X Witness Page No. Line No. NOEL CONROY EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON 6 1 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. DURACK 32 21 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. O'CALLAGHAN 39 8 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. COFFEY 44 14 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MS. O'SULLIVAN 47 9 RE-EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON 47 25 DES McTIERNAN EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON 54 1 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. BAKER 62 6 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. LEHANE 65 9 RE-EXAMINED BY MR. DILLON 71 23 PETER MAGUIRE EXAMINED BY MRS. LAVERTY 73 10 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. O'CALLAGHAN 99 13 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MS. O'SULLIVAN 101 8 Smithwick Tribunal - 15 September 2011 - Day 34 1 1 THE TRIBUNAL RESUMED ON THE 15TH OF SEPTEMBER, 2011, 2 AS FOLLOWS: 3 4 CHAIRMAN: Good morning. 5 6 MR. DILLON: We have two witnesses for you this morning, 7 the first witness is a distinguished witness, a retired 8 Commissioner of An Garda Siochana, and your second witness 9 is, well equally distinguished no doubt, is Mr. Des 10 McTiernan. 11 12 Now, before calling the first witness there is a matter I 13 would like to mention to clear the air for once and for all 14 to the end of these public hearings, and it's this: When 15 witnesses come before you, they are your witnesses, they 16 are the Tribunal's witnesses. They are here in answer to 17 your subpoena. Now, there is no difficulty with a witness 18 meeting one or other person other than the Tribunal, but 19 the fist port of call should be with the Tribunal because 20 the witness is your witness and thereafter, if the witness 21 wishes to meet somebody else, that is absolutely fine, 22 there is no difficulty about that. But it would be helpful 23 if that modus operandi could be followed in future and that 24 would avoid any unnecessary difficulties and in particular, 25 it will have the advantage, from the Tribunal's point of 26 view, that whatever matters the Tribunal needs to discuss 27 with the witness in advance of being -- him being called, 28 can be dealt with in a timely manner and not delay you in 29 terms of your sitting. So, if I just make that point and I 30 will leave it at that for today Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 15 September 2011 - Day 34 2 1 2 CHAIRMAN: Very well. Do you have anything to say to that 3 Mr. McGuinness or Mr. Durack? 4 5 MR. McGUINNESS: I don't know if Mr. Dillon is intending to 6 refer to what happened this morning, it may be that he is. 7 8 CHAIRMAN: You don't know? 9 10 MR. McGUINNESS: I was assuming he is, but I can tell the 11 Tribunal if the Tribunal wishes to hear exactly what 12 Mr. Dillon did, but the position from our point of view, 13 Chairman, is that Mr. Conroy, as, of course, a 14 distinguished Commissioner, asked to meet us and it was 15 thought appropriate to make that appointment to meet us and 16 at Ms. Cummins' suggestion, it was arranged to meet at 17 10:15 but in fact Mr. Conroy thought it was better to meet 18 earlier at 10 o'clock and Mr. Conroy appeared, then, to 19 meet us at 10 o'clock and, as I understand it, he hadn't 20 been asked to make any appointment to come at any 21 particular time at all to meet the Tribunal counsel nor had 22 any arrangement been made, in fact, to meet the Tribunal 23 counsel and -- 24 25 CHAIRMAN: Mr. McGuinness, I know what happened this 26 morning. When he arrived, as a courtesy my secretary 27 greeted him and welcomed him here and said that the 28 Tribunal counsel would like to speak to him and Ms. Cummins 29 countermanded that and said "No, no, you have to wait. I 30 want to talk to him now." And so he was prevented from Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 15 September 2011 - Day 34 3 1 talking to our counsel. He was summoned to the -- he came 2 in answer to a summons here. 3 4 MR. McGUINNESS: Yes, for 11 o'clock, Chairman. 5 6 CHAIRMAN: And naturally was greeted on arrival, and he is 7 the Tribunal witness. I mean, this has happened before, 8 you obstructed -- well you didn't, Mr. Durack did -- 9 obstructed a witness who came from seeing the Tribunal 10 counsel who didn't have any opportunity to talk to him at 11 all. I expressed strong views about that. 12 13 MR. McGUINNESS: Well, Chairman, indeed you did. I am 14 referring to what happened this morning. Now, no 15 arrangement had been made by Tribunal counsel to see 16 Mr. Conroy at any stage, nor had he been asked to attend at 17 any earlier stage, and Mr. Dillon, I regret to say, burst 18 into our consultation room and in a most peremptory and 19 rude manner purported to give directions to Mr. Conroy, and 20 to us indeed, and he was asked to wait, and after ten 21 minutes, at thirteen minutes past ten, Mr. Conroy was -- 22 arrangements were then made for Mr. Conroy to see whoever 23 wished to see him, no previous indication having been made 24 that he was required to see Mr. Dillon at 10 o'clock or 25 otherwise. 26 27 CHAIRMAN: Well it was, by my secretary who greeted him, 28 and was told she couldn't speak to him that he was 29 consulting with you. This isn't good enough. I mean, 30 every -- it's an everyday occurrence that before a witness Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 15 September 2011 - Day 34 4 1 appears they like to talk to the counsel who is going to 2 examine them in chief. 3 4 MR. McGUINNESS: Well, they may and they may not and they 5 are welcome to do so and free to do so, and no doubt every 6 witness with whom an appointment is made for a particular 7 time would be anxious to keep that appointment. We, in 8 answer to Mr. Conroy's request, were happy to meet him at 9 10 o'clock and we did so, and he was obviously free 10 thereafter to meet Mr. Dillon and he did so. 11 12 CHAIRMAN: And you think we should play -- the Tribunal 13 counsel should play second fiddle; that, as of right, the 14 Garda Commissioner is entitled to control all witnesses and 15 release them when he sees fit? 16 17 MR. McGUINNESS: Chairman, you may be misunderstanding. I 18 am not asserting anyone's right to control a witness one 19 way or the other at all. Obviously he is summoned to give 20 evidence at 11 o'clock and I am probably delaying that 21 process, which I regret, but if no prior arrangement had 22 been made to meet Mr. Dillon, I don't think it's a fair 23 criticism when he meets the Commissioner's counsel who he 24 requested to meet. It may be that we need more clarity as 25 to when Tribunal counsel wish to meet him, or wish to meet 26 any witness, and no doubt we should speak about the matter. 27 28 CHAIRMAN: Well, I think we should. I think it's an 29 unsatisfactory procedure and I don't propose to allow it 30 for the future. I think steps will have to be taken to Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 15 September 2011 - Day 34 5 1 order things differently. 2 3 MR. DILLON: Just one matter. I had my submission in 4 extremely general and broad terms and I am sorry it's been 5 personalised but that is beyond my control. I now call 6 Mr. Noel Conroy, please. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Doyle Court Reporters Ltd. Smithwick Tribunal - 15 September 2011 - Day 34 6 1 NOEL CONROY, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS EXAMINED BY MR.