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VIEWS & REVIEWS

Robert Penn Warren and Ralph Ellison

A Dialogue

this was the difficulty, based upon he has added, "by Negro 'spokesmen' IN Invisible1952, Ralph Man wasEllison's published. novel It our long habit of deception and eva- and by sociologists, black and white." is now a classic of our time, and sion, of depicting what really hap- In other words, he is insisting on the has been translated into seven pened within our areas of American difficult obligation of discovering languages. The title has become a life, and putting down with honesty and affirming the self, in the face of key phrase: the is the and without bowing to ideological pressures from whatever source or American Negro. expediencies the attitudes and values side. He has notably succeeded in Ralph Ellison is not invisible, and which give Negro American life its fulfilling that obligation. he had done some thirty-eight years sense of wholeness and which render Physically, Ralph Ellison is a man of living before the novel appeared; it bearable and human and, when of force and grace, somewhat above the rich and complex experience of measured by our own times, desir- medium height, with a well-fleshed those years underlies, too, his recent able." figure not yet showing any of the collection of essays, . We all know the difficulty of being slackness of middle age. He is light In the preface he says of his struggle honest about our feelings. But Elli- brown. His brow slopes back but to become a writer: son clearly means something more is finely vaulted, an effect accentu- "I found the greatest difficulty for than that ordinary human difficulty ated by the receding hairline. The a Negro writer was the problem of -the difficulty of hitting the truth skin of his face is unmarked by his revealing what he truly felt, rather beyond what Negroes, as Negroes, fifty years, and the whole effect of than serving up what Negroes are "supposed to feel," are "en- his smoothly modeled face is one of were supposed to feel and were couraged to feel." By whom? By the calmness and control; his gestures encouraged to feel. And linked to white world, of course-but also, as have the same control, the same bal-

8 1965 by . From "Who Speaks for the Negro?", to be published by Random House.

THE REPORTER . R.. : .. te r :- 1 .. -7. .. _ --7.fi..,., y.r.R- ... .,II* -- IC ___ ance and calmness. The calmness absence of outside pressure. On the Actually, I doubt the existence of has a history, I should imagine, a aesthetic level alone there are cer- a "total" agony, for where person- history of self-conquest and the hard tain types you like, certain sensibil- ality is involved two plus two seldom lessons of sympathy learned through ities, certain voices-a number of equals four. But I agree that agony a burgeoning and forgiving imag- other qualities. Another factor is and alienation do form a valid ination. Lurking in the calmness is, that Negroes, despite what some of source of appeal. too, the impression of the possibility our spokesmen say, do not dislike However, there's another aspect of of a sudden nervous striking out, being Negro-no matter how in- reality which applies: the American not totally mastered. There are those convenient it frequently is. I like Negro has a dual identity, just as moments when he seems to with- being a Negro. most Americans have, and it seems to draw; but the withdrawal is tempered WARREN: Then it's not merely me ironic that the discipline out of by the flashes of sympathy and by suffering and deprivation, it's a chal- which this present action is being ex- humor, a wry humor sometimes lenge and enrichment? erted comes from no simple agony- directed at the self. ELLISON: Yes indeed-these com- or simple despair-but out of long He speaks slowly, not quite in a plete the circle and make it human. years of learning how to live under drawl, and when he speaks on a mat- And as I was telling the kids this pressure, of learning to deal with ter of some weight he tends to move morning at Rutgers, I have no desire provocation and with violence. It his head almost imperceptibly from to escape the struggle, because I'm issues out of the Negro's necessity side to side, or even moves his just too interested in how it's going of establishing his own value system shoulders. He does this as he sits to work out. I want to help shape and his own conception of Negro on a couch in his New York study events and our general culture, not experience and Negro personality, high above the Hudson. I have just merely as a semi-outsider but as one conceptions which seldom get into read a quotation from W. E. B. Du who is in a position to have a re- the sociology and psychology text- Bois, the eminent Negro historian, sponsible impact upon the American books. on what he regarded as the split in value system. WARREN: The power of character, the psyche of the Negro American, WARREN: Some Negroes-some of self-control-the qualities that are the tension between the western leaders-say that there is no chal- making this movement effective now white cultural tradition and "Negro- lenge or enrichment in the situation -did not come out of blind suffer- ness" as racial and cultural identity. of Negroes. Of course, for it ing? may be a matter of strategy to insist EI.I.rSON: Nor did they come out ELLISON: The idea that the Negro on the total agony. of self-pity or self-hate-which is a psyche is split is not as viable as it EL.LISON: Perhaps I can talk this belief shared by many black and seems-although it might have been way because I'm not a leader. But white sociologists, journalists, by the true of Dr. Du Bois personally. My there is a dlanger in this, neverthe- Black Muslims and by many white problem is not whether I will accept less. The danger lies in overempha- liberals. But even though some of or reject American values. It is, sizing the extent to which Negroes these elements-the Negro being hu- rather, how can I get into a position are alienated, and in overstressing man-are present within the move- where I can have the maximum in- ment, these qualities are no expres- fluence upon those values. There is sion of blind suffering or self-hate. also the matter, as you have pointed For when the world was not looking, out, of those American ideals which when the country was not looking at were so fatefully put down on paper Negroes, and when we were re- which I want to see made manifest. the extent to which the racial pre- strained in certain of our activities WARREN: One sometimes encoun- dicament imposes an agony upon by the interpretation of the law of ters the Negro who says he regrets the individual. For the Negro youth the land, something was present in the possible long-range absorption this emphasis can become an excuse our lives to sustain us. This is evi- of the Negro blood, and the possi- and a blinder, leading to an avoid- dent when we go back and look at bility of the loss of Negro identity. ance of individual assertion. It can our cultural expression, when we ELLISON: That's like wishing your encourage him to ignore his person- look at the folklore in a truly ques- father's father wasn't your grand- al talent in favor of reducing him- tioning way, when we scrutinize and father. I don't fear "Negro" blood self to a generalized definition of listen before passing judgment. Lis- being absorbed, but I am afraid that alienation and agony. Thus is accom- ten to those tales which are told by the Negro American cultural ex- plished what the entire history of Negroes among themselves. I'm an- pression might be absorbed and repression and brutalization has noyed whenever I come across a per- obliterated through lack of appre- failed to do: the individual reduces fectly well-meaning person saying of ciation and through commercializa- himself to a cipher. Ironically, some the present struggle, "Well, the tion and banalization. of those who yell loudest about Negro has suddenly discovered cour- Anyway, I don't think the prob- alienation are doing jt in some of age." Without ever bothering to do lem of blood absorption works so the most conservativ journals and more than project his own notions simply. There are principles of newspapers and are very well paid upon Negroes-and not really his selection which have little to do with for so yelling. Yet, obviously, the own but prefabricated stereotypes- the status accorded to whiteness, and agony which they display has other he makes of a slow and arduous de- these assert themselves despite the than racial sources. velopment a dramatic event. The

March 25, 1965 freedom movement, he assumes, ex- feel the need to defend a lot of ported by just one thing--segrega- ists simply because he is looking at things in one package as being South- tion. it. Thus it becomes an accident or ern, and one of those things is seg- ELLISON: Yes, and their fear is so an artistic contrivance, or a con- regation. He feels he has to have the unreal, actually, when you can see spiracy, instead of the slow develop- whole package to define his culture the whole political structure being ment in time, in history, and in and his identity. Does that make any changed anyway. And when the po- group discipline and organizational sense to you? litical structure changes and deseg- technique which it actually is. ELLISON: It makes a lot of sense regation is achieved, it will be easily I shouldn't be annoyed, of course, to me, because one thing I feel when seen where Negroes were stopped by since Americans know very little of I look at the Southerner who has the law and where they would have their history and we tend to act as these feelings is that he has been stopped anyway, because of income though we believed that by refusing imprisoned by them, and that he and by their own preference-a mat- to look at history there'll be no has been prevented from achieving ter of taste. There is, after all, a tiny necessity to confront its conse- his individuality, perhaps more than bit of Negro truth in the story South- quences. And we have so many facile Negroes have. And very often this is ern whites love to tell, to the effect ways of disguising the issues, of ren- a tough one for Northerners to un- that if a white man could be a Negro dering them banal. derstand-that is, Northern whites, on Saturday night he'd never wish A few weeks ago I saw a revival and sometimes even for Northern to be white again. of an old Al Jolson movie on tele- Negroes. That bit of consolation aside, vision. This was about the time of WARREN: I think that's true- however, I don't think it sufficiently the summer riots in , and in about some of the people I know. appreciated that over and over ELI.ISON: Yes, it is very difficult to get that across, and I wish it could be spelled out. I wish that we could break this thing down so that it one of the big scenes Jolson appears could be seen that desegregation again Negroes of certain back- in blackface singing a refrain which isn't going to stop people from being grounds take on aristocratic values. goes, "I don't want to make your Southern, that freedom for Negroes They are rural and Southern and laws, I just want to sing my songs isn't going to destroy the main cur- not drawn to business because busi- and be happyl" Well, whatever the rent of that way of life: which be- ness was not part of the general reality of Negro attitudes or whatever comes, like most ways of life when pattern. This is one reason-over the stage of the Negro freedom we talk about them, more real on and beyond the realities of discrim- struggle at the time the picture was the level of myth, memory, and ination by banks, suppliers, poor originally released, this piece of dream than on the level of actuality training opportunities, and even in- popular culture tells us more about anyway. The climate will remain the dividual lack of initiative-that Jolson, about Hollywood, and about same, and that has a lot to do with we've developed no powerful middle- American techniques for converting it; the heroes of Southern history class. Here again a cultural factor serious moral issues into sentimental will remain, and so on. The economy cuts across the racial and political and banal entertainment than about will probably expand and a hell of a appearance of things. Southern Negroes. Anyone who bothers to con- lot of energy which has gone into whites were also slow to take to sult history would know that not business. only were Negroes anxious to change WARREN: That's been one of the the laws but were trying even then to things that has been commented on do so. keeping the Negro "in his place" by observers from the eighteenth Viewed from this perspective, will be released for more creative century on. America has been terribly damaged pursuits. And the dictionary will be- ELLISON: But over and over again, by bad art. Perhaps those Negro come more accurate, the language a my intellectual friends-they have writers who wish to be praised for bit purified, and the singing in the no conception of this. They can't shoddy work, and who regard serious schools will sound better. understand-I mean, it appears lu- as a form of racial I suspect that what is valuable dicrous to them when I say that so- prejudice, should remember that bad and worth preserving in the white and-so is aristocratic in his image of art which toys with serious issues is Southern way of life is not exclusive- himself and in the values which he ultimately destructive and the enter- ly dependent upon the existence of has taken over from the white tainment which it provides is poison- segregation. Besides, from what I South. Nevertheless it's true, and ous, regardless of the racial back- have seen of the South, as a musician some of the biggest snobs that you ground of the artist. and as a waiter and so on, some of could run into are poor Negroes- WARREN: What do you think of the people who are most afraid of well, they might not be poor actu- the suggestion that part of the South- Negroes invading them will never be ally, they might be living very well ern resistance is not based on the bothered because their way of life -but there are just certain things, question of race as such but on the is structured in a manner which isn't certain codes, certain values which impulse to maintain identity? A particularly attractive to Negroes. they express and they will die by white Southerner feeling that his WARREN: There's an interlocking them. And there's quite a lot of that. identity is somehow involved may structure, I sometimes think, sup- WARREN: In Washington I was

4° THE REPORTER

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i ! ,. talking to a student in the Howard I resent the word-I resent the word Several people, including a civil- University Law School-she's been "reconstructed." rights militant like Robert Moses through the demonstrations, she's ELLISON: It's like this notion of of the Student Nonviolent Coordi- been in jail. She said, "I'm optimistic the culturally deprived child-one nating Committee, have remarked on about the way things may go here of those phrases which I don't like. the resistance of Negroes there to in the South-about getting a hu- I have taught white middle-class white well-wishers, or even coura- man settlement after the troubles young people who are what I would geous fellow workers. Some whites, are over." I asked, "Why?" She said, call "culturally deprived." They are to compensate for some deficiency "Well, because we have been on the culturally deprived because they are they feel, try to absorb arbitrarily land together. We have a common not oriented within the society in the Negro culture, Negro speech, history which is some basis for such a way that they are prepared Negro musical terms, Negro musical communication, for living together to deal with its problems. tastes-move in and grab, as it were, afterwards." WV\RREN: It's a different kind of the other man's soul. ELLISON: Well, it is true that when cultural deprivation, isn't it? And Er.LusoN: Yes, and the resentment you share a common background, actually a more radical one. has existed for a long time now. you don't have to spell out so many ELuLSON: That's right, but they But what is new today is that it is things, even though you might be don't even realize it. Those people being stated, articulated. It is im- fighting over recognizing the com- can be much more troubled than portant to recognize, however, that mon identity, and I think that that's the child who lives in the slum and the resentment arises not from sim- part of the South's struggle. For in- knows how to exist in the slum. ple jealousy over others admiring stance, it's just very hard for Gov- WARREN: It's more mysterious, certain aspects of our life style and and ernor Wallace to recognize that he what's happening to him-the expression seeking to share has got to share not only the back- middle-class child? them. All too often that idiom, that ground but the power of looking E .ISo)N: Yes, it's quite mysterious, style, that expressiveness for which we've after the state of Alabama with because he has everything, all of the suffered and struggled, and Negroes who probably know as which is a product of our effort to much about it as he does. Now, make meaning of our experience, is over here in New York I know many, taken by those who would dis- many people with many, many tort it and reduce it to banality. . backgrounds, and very often people opportunities, but he can make noth- 'I'This happened with But another aspect of Negro re- who think that they know me as an ing of the society or of his obliga- because, again all individual reveal that they have no tions. And often he has no clear sentmnent arises too often, whites approach us with sense of the experience behind me idea of his own goals. He can't see an unconscious assumption of racial -the extent of it and the complex- how to remedy his situation and he superiority. And this leads to the ity of it. What they have instead is doesn't know to what extent he has naive and implicitly arrogant as- good will and a passion for abstrac- given up his past. He thinks he has sumption that a characteristic cul- tion. a history, but every time you really tural expression can simply be picked WARREN: That's a human prob- talk to him seriously you discover up and appropriated, without both- lem, of course, all the way. But it that, well, it's kind of floating out cring to learn its subtleties, its inner can be special in a case like this, I there. There's a distance between presume. the parent and the child--tle par- ELLISON: It can be special because ents might have had it, they might suddenly something comes up and have had it in the old country, they I realize, "Well, my gosh, all the might have had it from the farm. pieces aren't here." That is, I've and so on, but something happens won my individuality in relation to with the young ones. those friends at the cost of that WARRIN: Do you think there's a complexity, or its human cost, its great part of me which is really rep- real crisis of values in the American source in tradition, its idiomatic allu- resentative of a group experience. middle class, then? siveness, its rooting in the density I'm sometimes viewed as "different" Ert.r.soN: I think there's a terrific of lived life. It's like Christopher or a "special instance," when in fact crisis, and one of the events by Newman in James's The American I'm special only to the extent that which the middle class is being going over and trying to move into I'm a fairly conscious example and tested, and one of the forms in French society and finding a dense in some ways a lucky instance of which the crisis expresses itself, is complexity of values and attitudes. the general run of American the necessity of dealing with the \VARRI:N: Let's turn to something Negroes. Negro freedom movement. else. Here in the midst of what has WARREN: I encounter the same WARREN: Is this why there are been an expanding economy you thing, I suppose, in a way. I have some young white people who move have a contracting economy for the been congratulated by well-meaning into it-because it is their personal unprepared, for the Negro. friends who say, "It's so nice to meet salvation to find a cause to identify EuI.ISON: That's the paradox. And a reconstructed Southerner." I don t with, someth'ing outside themselves, this particularly explains something feel reconstnructed, you see. And I outside the flatness of their middle- new which has come into the pic- by the don't feel liberal. I feel logical. And class American spiritual ghetto? ture, that is, a determination

March 25, 1965 45

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: r?. , . Negro no longer to be the scape- land and when many were being cance. Some Northerners regard the goat, no longer to pay, to be sacri- casually killed. Violence has been so necessary psychological complexity ficed to the inadequacies of other ever-present and so often unleashed of Southern Negroes as intolerable, Americans. We want to socialize the through incidents of such pettiness but I'm afraid that they would im- costs. A cost has been exacted in and capriciousness that for us per- pose a psychological terms of character, norm upon in terms of cour- sonal courage had either to take an- Negro life which is not only inade- age and determination, and in terms other form or be negated, to become quate to deal with its complexity of self-knowledge and self-discovery. meaningless. but implicitly negative. Worse, it has led to social, economic, Often the individual's personal VARREN: Let's go back to what political, and intellectual disadvan- courage had to be held in check, you said a moment ago about the tages, and to a contempt even for since not only could his exaction basic heroism involved in the Negro our lives. of personal satisfaction from a white struggle. Negroes are now forcing the con- man lead to the destruction of other frontation between the nation's con- innocent Negroes, but his self-evalu- duct and its ideal, and they are most ation could be called into question by the smallest things and the most inconseq u ential gesture could be- ome imbued with power over life or death. ErI.soN: Yes, I'm referring to the This has certainly been part of basic, implicit heroism of people who my own experience. There have been nust live within a society without American in that they are doing so. situations where in facing hostile recognition or real status, but who Other Americans are going to have whites I had to determine not what are involved in the ideals of that to do the same thing. We've had the they thought was at issue--because, society and who are trying to make luxury of evading moral necessities in any case, they were bent upon lheir way, trying to determine their from the Reconstruction on. Much violence-but what I wanted it to true position and their rightful posi- of the moral looseness from which be. "This guy wants me to fight, lion within it. Such people learn we suffered can be dated back to most likely he wants an excuse to more about the real nature of that that period. We're slowly learning kill me-what do I have to gain? society, more about the true charac- that wealth does us little good, that And am I going to let him impose ter of its values, than those who can something more is needed. We're in his values upon my life?" affllord to take their own place in trouble simply because we've com- WARREN: To let him determine society for granted. They might not promised so damned much with your worth to you, is that it? be able to spell it out philosophical- events and with ourselves. Something ELut.soN: Yes. Even if I couldn't ly, but they act it out. And as against is wrong and it isn't the presence of love my would-be provocateur, as the white man's indictments of the Negroes. It isn't even the presence Dr. King advises, I could dismiss conduct, folkways, and values which of the civil-rights problem, although him as childish, and perhaps even express their sense of social reality, this is an aspect of it. forgive him. This, even though at the Negroes' actions say: "But you WARREN: I agree with you imme- the time I ached to meet him on are being dishonest. You know that diately that that is not the central neutral ground and on equal terms. our view of things is truie. WVe live fact. But it flows into an American One thing that some Northern and act out the truth of American national situation and aggravates it. Negroes overlook is that Southern reality, while to the extent that you Er.t.IsoN: The national values have Negroes learned about violence in a refuse to take those aspects of real- become so confused that you can't it!, these inconsistencies, into con- even depend upon your writers for sideration, you do not live the some sense of the realism of charac- truth." ter. There is a basic strength in this Such a position raises a people country, but so much of it is being above a simple position of social sapped away and no one seems to and political inferiority, and it im- be too much interested in it. poses upon them the necessity of WARREN: Even in the face of some very tough school. They have known understanding the other man. And, of the evidence, we have to assume for a long time that they can take while still pressing for their freedom, there's a basic strength in the coun- a lot of head-whipping and survive they have the obligation to them- try-assume that much or give up. and go on working toward their own selves of giving up some of their But as one of the factors in that goals. We learned about forbearance need for revenge. There are no ab- basic strength, I've heard you talk and forgiveness in that same school stract rules. And although the human about the Negro's ability to master -and about hope too. So today we ?oal of a higher humanity is the psychological pressures, about how sacrifice, as we sacrificed yesterday, same for all, each group must play this was developed in the course of the pleasure of personal retaliation the cards as history deals them. This his history, about- in the interest of the common good. req!uires understanding. ELLISON: -about the old necessity And where violence was once a cas- WTARREN: Understanding them- of having to stay alive during peri- ual matter, it has now become a selves too? ods when violence was loose in the matter of national political signifi- Ei.r.lsoN: Understanding them-

THE REPORTER

;,.

-^ ' y:: talking to a student in the Howard I resent the word-I resent the word Several people, including a civil- University Law School--she's been "reconstructed." rights militant like Robert Moses through the demonstrations, she's ELLISON: It's like this notion of of the Student Nonviolent Coordi- been in jail. She said, "I'm optimistic the culturally deprived child-one nating Committee, have remarked on about the way things may go here of those phrases which I don't like. the resistance of Negroes there to in the South-about getting a hu- I have taught white middle-class white well-wishers, or even coura- man settlement after the troubles young people who are what I would geous fellow workers. Some whites, are over." I asked, "Why?" She said, call "culturally deprived." They are to compensate for some deficiency "Well, because we have been on the culturally deprived because they are they feel, try to absorb arbitrarily land together. We have a common not oriented within the society in the Negro culture, Negro speech, history which is some basis for such a way that they are prepared Negro musical terms, Negro musical communication, for living together to deal with its problems. ta'stes-move in and grab, as it were, a fterwards." WARRI-N:, It's a different kind of the other man's soul. ELtISON: Well, it is true that when cultural deprivation, isn't it? And ELlItsoN: Yes, and the resentment you share a common background, actually a more radical one. has existed for a long time now. you don't have to spell out so many ELu.isoN: That's right, but they But what is new today is that it is things, even though you might he don't even realize it. Those people being stated, articulated. It is im- fighting over recognizing the com- can be much more troubled than portant to recognize, however, that mon identity, and I think that that's the child who lives in the slum and the resentment arises not from sim- slum. part of the South's struggle. For in- knows how to exist in the ipe jealousy over others admiring stance, it's just very hard for Gov- \rARREN: It's more mysterious, certain aspects of our life style and ernor Wallace to recognize that he what's happening to him-the expression and seeking to share has got to share not only the back- middle -class child? them. .ll too often that idiom, that ground but the power of looking Eli isoN: Yes, it's quite mysterious, stle, that expressiveness for which after the state of Alabama with Iecause he has everything, all of the we've suffered and struggled, and Negroes who probably know as which is a product of our effort to much about it as he does. Now, make meaning of our experience, is here in New York I know many, t, ken over )by those who would dis- many people with many, many tort it and reduce it to banality. backgrounds, and very often people opportunities, but he can make noth- "l'his happened with jazz. who think that they know me as an ing of the society or of his obliga- But another aspect of Negro re- individual reveal that they have no tions. And often he has no clear sentment arises because, again all sense of the experience behind me idea of his own goals. He ctn't see too often, whites approach us with -the extent of it and the complex- how to remedy his situation and he an unconscious assumption of racial ity of it. What they have instead is doesn't know to what extent he has superiority. And this leads to the good will and a passion for abstrac- given up his past. He thinks he has naive and implicitly arrogant as- tion. :ahistory, but every time you really sumption that a characteristic cul- WARREN: That's a human prob- talk to him seriously you discover lural expression can simply be picked lem, of course, all the way. But it that, well, it's kind of floating out up and al)ppropriated, without both- can be special in a case like this, I there. There's a distance between cring to learn its subtleties, its inner presume. the parent and the child the p:,r- ELLISON: It can be special because ents might have had it, they might suddenly something comes up and have had it in the old country, they I realize, "Well, my gosh, all the Imight have had it from the farm, pieces aren't here." That is, I've ul so on, but som(ethitng happens won my individuality in relation to with the young ones. those friends at the cost of that WARkRN: Do you think there's a complexity, or its hutnan cost. its great part of me which is really rep- real crisis of values in the American source in tradition, its idiomatic allu- resentative of a group experience. middle class, then? siveness, its rooting in the density I'm sometimes viewed as "different" EL IsoN: I think there's a terrific of lived life. It's like Christohller or a "special instance," when in fact crisis, and one of the events by Newman in James's Tlrhe Ame.lrican I'm special only to the extent that which the middle class is being going over and trying to move into I'm a fairly conscious example and tested, and one of the forms in French society and finding a dense in some ways a lucky instance of which the crisis expresses itself, is complexity of values and attitudes. the general run of American the necessity of dealing with the \VARREN: Let's turlln to something Negroes. Negro freedom movement. else. Here in the midst of what has WARREN: I encounter the same WARREN: Is this why there are been an expanding economy you thing, I suppose, in a way. I have some young white people who move have a contracting economy for the been congratulated by well-meaning into it-because it is their personal unlprepared, for the Negro. friends who say, "It's so nice to meet salvation to find a cause to identify EI.r.tsoN: That's the paradox. And a reconstructed Southerner." I don't with, something outside themselves, this patrticularly explains something feel reconstructed, you see. And I outside the flatness of their middle- new which has come into the pic- don't feel liberal. I feel logical. And class American spiritual ghetto? ture, that is, a determination by the

March 25, 1965 Negro no longer to be the scape- land and when many were being cance. Some Northerners regard the goat, no longer to pay, to be sacri- casually killed. Violence has been so necessary psychological complexity ficed to the inadequacies of other ever-present and so often unleashed of Southern Negroes as intolerable, Americans. We want to socialize the through incidents of such pettiness but I'm afraid that they would im- costs. A cost has been exacted in and capriciousness that for us per- pose a psychological norm upon terms of character, in terms of cour- sonal courage had either to take an- Negro life which is not only inade- age and determination, and in terms other form or be negated, to become qluate to deal with its coinplexity of self-knowledge and self-discovery. meaningless. I)ut implicitly negative. W'orse, it has led to social, economic, Often the individual's personal WA:RREN: Let's go back to what you said a moment ago about the political, and intellectual disadvan- courage had to be held in check, tages, and to a contempt even for since not only could his exaction basic heroism involved in the Negro our lives. of personal satisfaction from a white struggle. Negroes are now forcing the con- man lead to the destruction of other frontation between the nation's con- innocent Negroes, but his self-evalu- duct and its ideal, and they are most ation coultl be called into question by the smallest things and the most inconsequential gesture could be- come imbued with power over life or death. l'h i. sox: Yes, I'm referring to the This has certainly been part of basic, impliciit heroism of people who my own experience. There have been must live within a society without American in that they are doing so. situations where in facing hostile recognition or real status, but who Other Americans are going to have whites I had to determine not what are iuvolvedl in the ideals of that to do the same thing. We've had the they thought was at issue---l)ecause, socicty and who are trying to make luxury of evading moral necessities in any case, they were bent upon their way, trying to determine their from the Reconstruction on. Much violence-but what I wanted it to true position and their rightful posi- it. Such people learn of the moral looseness from which be. "This guy wants me to fight, tion within we suffered can be dated back to most likely he wants an excuse to inore about the real nature of that that period. We're slowly learning kill me-what do I have to gain? society, more about the true charac- that wealth does us little good, that And am I going to let him impose ter of its values, than those who can something more is needed. We're in his values upon my life?" afllord to take their own place in trouble simply because we've com- WARREN: TO let him determine society for granted. They might not promised so damned much with your worth to you, is that it? he able to spell it out philosophical- events and with ourselves. Something EI.lsoN: Yes. Even if I couldn't ly, )butthey art it out. And as against is wrong and it isn't the presence of love my would-be provocateur, as the white man's indictments of the Negroes. It isn't even the presence Dr. King advises, I could dismiss conduct, folkways, and values which of the civil-rights problem, although hnm as childish, and perhaps even express their sense of social reality, this is an aspect of it. forgive him. This, even though at the Negroes' actions say: "Burt you WVARREN: I agree with you imme- the time I ached to meet him on a(re being dishonest. You know that diately that that is not the central neutral ground and on ecqual terms. our view of things is true. W\e live fact. But it flows into an American One thing that some Northern and act out the truth of American national situation anti aggravates it. Negroes overlook is that Southern reality, while to the extent that you Ei.t.lsoN: The national values have Negroes learned about violence in a refuse to take those aspects of real- beconie so confused that yot c-an't i!x, these inconsistencies, into con- even depend upon your writers for sdleration, you dto not live the some sense of the realism of charac- ri uth." ter. There is a basic strength in this Such a position raises a people country, but so much of it is being ablove a simple position of social sapped away and no one seems to and political inferiority, and it im- be too much interested in it. poses upon them the necessity of VARREN: Even in the face of some very tough school. They have known understanding the other man. And, of the evidence, we have to assume for a long time thi:;t they can take while still pressing for their freedom, there's a basic strength in the coun- a lot of head-whipping and survive they have the obligation to them- try-assume that much or give up. and go on working toward their own selves of giving up some of their But as one of the factors in that coals. We learned about forhearance need for revenge. There are no ab- basic strength, I've heard you talk and forgiveness in that same school stract ruiles. And although the human about the Negro's ability to master -and about hope too. So today we , oal of a higher humanity is the psychological pressures, about how sacrifice, as we sacrificed yesterday, saume for all, each group must play this was developed in the course of the pleasure of personal retaliation the cards as history deals them. This his history, about- in the interest of the common good. requires understanding. ELLISON: -about the old necessity And where violence was once a cas- \'ARREN: Understanding them- of having to stay alive during peri- ual matter, it has now become a selves too? ods when violence was loose in the matter of national political signifi- ELuttsoN: Understanding them-

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;i~n.::.... ~; ... INCORRECT PAGINATION

selves-yes--in terms of their own in the race problem. I am concerned partially share-imposed upon us. lived definition of value, and of with a kind of parallelism here be- Nevertheless, there is much about understanding themselves in rela- tween these two things. Negro life which Negroes like, just tionship to other Americans. This ELLISON: Well, I think that the as we like certain kinds of food. One places a big moral strain upon the parallel is very real. We're often so of our problems is going to be that individual, and it requires self-con- imprisoned in the problem that we of affirming those things which we fidence, self-consciousness, self-mas- don't stop to analyze our assets, and love about Negro life when there is tery, insight, and compassion. In the our leaders are often so preoccupied no longer pressure upon us from out- broader sense it requires an alertness with an effort to interpret Negro side. Then the time will come when to human complexity. Nevertheless, life in terms which sociology has our old ways of life will say, "Well, isn't this what civilization is all laid down that they not only fail all right, you're no longer kept with- about? And isn't this what tragedy to question the validity of such in a Jim Crow community, what are has always sought to teach us? limited and limiting terms, but they you going to do about your life now? At any rate, this too has been seem unaware that there are any Do you think there is going to be a part of the American Negro experi- others. One reason seems to be that way of enjoying yourself which is ab- ence, and I believe that one of the they exclude themselves from the solutely better, more human than important clues to the meaning of limitations of such definitions. what you've known?" You see, it's a that experience lies in the idea, the WARREN: Let's go back more spe- question of recognizing the human ideal of sacrifice. 's cifically to the notion that both the core, the universality of our experi- failure to grasp the importance of white and Negro Southerner are im- ence. this ideal among Southern Negroes prisoned in a situation. It is one of my greatest privileges caused her to fly way off into left Ei.isoN: Now, we know that there as an American, as a human being field in her "Reflections on Little is an area in Southern experience living in this particular time, to be Rock," in Dissent magazine, in which wherein Negroes and whites achieve able to project myself into various she charged Negro parents with ex- backgrounds, into various cultural ploiting their children during the patterns, not because I want to cease struggle to integrate the schools. being a Negro, or because I think But she has absolutely no conception that these are automatically better of what goes on in the minds of ways of realizing oneself, but be- Negro parents when they send their cause it is one of the great glories of kids through those lines of hostile being an American. You can be people. Yet they are aware of the a sort of human communication- somebody else while still being your- overtones of a rite of initiation and even social intercourse-which self, and you don't have to take an which such events actually consti- is not always possible in the North. ocean voyage to do it. tute for the child, a confrontation I mean that there is an implacably WARREN: I know some people, of the terrors of social life with all human side to race relationships. Ralph, white people and Negroes, the mysteries stripped away. And in But at certain moments a reality who would say that what you are the outlook of many of these parents which is political and social and saying is an apology for a segregated (who wish that the problem didn't ideological asserts itself, and the hu- society. I know it's not. exist), the child is expected to face man relationship breaks up and EItLISON: There's no real answer the terror and contain his fear and both houps of people fall into their to such a charge, but I did leave the anger precisely because he is a Negro abstract roles. Thus a great loss of South in 1936. My writing speaks for American. Thus he's required to human energy goes into maintaining master the inner tensions created by our stylized identities. In fact, much his racial situation-and if he gets of the energy of the imagination- hurt, then his is one more sacrifice. much of the psychic energy of the It is a harsh requirement, but if he South, among both whites and fails this basic test his life will be blacks, has gone, I think, into this even harsher. particular negative art form. If I may speak of it in such terms. itself. I've never pretended for one WARREN: Just from the strain of minute that the injustices anti limi- maintaining this stance? tations of Negro life do not exist. ELIISON: I think so. Because in On the other hand, I think it's im- the end, when the barriers are down, portant to recognize that Negroes there are human assertions to be have achieved a very rich humanity made, whatever one's race, in terms despite these restrictive conditions. of one's own taste and one's own af- I wish to be free not so that I can WARREN: Many Southerners have firmations of one's own self, one'sown be less Negro American but so that been imprisoned by a loyalty to be- way and the sense of life of one's I can make the term mean something ing Southern. Now, there's a remark own group. But this makes a big even richer. Now, if I can't recognize often made about Negroes, that they problem for Negroes because there's this or if recognizing this makes me are frequently imprisoned-or the always the dominance of white an Uncle Tom, then heaven help us genius of the Negro is imprisoned- standards-which we influence and all.

48 THE REPORTER

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