Second Session, 40th Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(HANSARD)

Tuesday, May 6, 2014 Morning Sitting Volume 12, Number 1

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC

Second Session, 40th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education ...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Dr. Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ...... Hon. Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...... Hon. Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business ...... Hon. Minister of Justice ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation...... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... John Horgan Deputy Speaker ...... Douglas Horne Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Marc Dalton Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) ...... -Fraserview Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal)...... Penticton Abbotsford South ...... Darryl Plecas Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena Abbotsford West ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... Linda Larson Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Kathy Corrigan Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Jane Jae Kyung Shin Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby North ...... Richard T. Lee Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End Cariboo North ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack ...... John Martin Clark, Hon. Christy (BC Liberal) ...... Westside-Kelowna Chilliwack-Hope ...... Laurie Th roness Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ...... Douglas Horne Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Selina Robinson Darcy, Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Delta North ...... Scott Hamilton Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Eby, David (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Fraser-Nicola...... Jackie Tegart Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Juan de Fuca ...... John Horgan Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood Kamloops–North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Hon. Todd Stone Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Hon. Norm Letnick Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Kootenay East ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Hamilton, Scott (BC Liberal) ...... Delta North Kootenay West ...... Katrine Conroy Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Heyman, George (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Dr. Doug Bing Holman, Gary (NDP) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Nanaimo ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Doug Routley Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nechako Lakes ...... Hon. John Rustad Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Nelson-Creston ...... Michelle Mungall Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South New Westminster ...... Judy Darcy James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill North Coast...... Jennifer Rice Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads North Island ...... Claire Trevena Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson Parksville-Qualicum ...... Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen Peace River North ...... Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Peace River South ...... Letnick, Hon. Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Penticton...... Dan Ashton Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Port Coquitlam ...... Mike Farnworth McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Linda Reimer Martin, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Nicholas Simons Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Richmond Centre ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Pimm, Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Richmond East ...... Hon. Linda Reid Plecas, Darryl (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford South Richmond-Steveston ...... Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Saanich North and the Islands ...... Gary Holman Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South Saanich South ...... Lana Popham Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Shuswap ...... Greg Kyllo Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Skeena ...... Robin Austin Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Stikine ...... Doug Donaldson Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ...... North Coast Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Robinson, Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Sue Hammell Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Newton ...... Harry Bains Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Panorama ...... Marvin Hunt Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Surrey-Tynehead ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal) ...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fairview ...... George Heyman Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–False Creek ...... Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Hastings ...... Shane Simpson Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kensington ...... Mable Elmore Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver-Langara ...... Dr. Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver–Point Grey ...... David Eby Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack-Hope Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Yap, John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna ...... Hon. Christy Clark

Party Standings: BC Liberal 49; New Democratic 34; Independent 2

CONTENTS

Tuesday, May 6, 2014 Morning Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members ...... 3509

Introduction and First Reading of Bills ...... 3509 Bill M212 — Poverty Reduction and Economic Inclusion Act, 2014 M. Mungall

Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 3510 Mental health services for children and youth in rural communities J. Rice Qualicum Beach Digital Arts Studio Michelle Stilwell Vision Health Month and work of Canadian National Institute for the Blind J. Darcy Clinton Annual Ball J. Tegart B.C. Schizophrenia Society and Mental Health Week R. Fleming Meningitis awareness and prevention L. Reimer

Oral Questions ...... 3512 Income assistance policy on child support payments and government action on poverty J. Horgan Hon. D. McRae M. Mungall Changes to community health care centres in Vancouver J. Darcy Hon. T. Lake G. Heyman Health care services for youth in Vancouver D. Eby Hon. T. Lake Impact of ferry services vessel changes on passengers with mobility issues C. Trevena Hon. T. Stone Management of interface fi re risks N. Macdonald Hon. S. Th omson

Petitions ...... 3517 D. Eby M. Mungall

Orders of the Day

Second Reading of Bills ...... 3517 Bill 2 — Electoral Boundaries Commission Amendment Act, 2014 (continued) R. Fleming S. Chandra Herbert S. Robinson K. Corrigan Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply ...... 3525 Estimates: Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services Hon. A. Wilkinson G. Heyman 3509

TUESDAY, MAY 6, 2014 members from Faith in Action. We have Peggy Wilmot, Sister Joyce Harris, Lorraine Parsons, Gertie Jocksch, Th e House met at 10:04 a.m. Penny Tennenhouse, Sister Marina Smith, Philip Symons, Marya Nyland, Bill Gaylord, Judy Gaylord, Michael [Madame Speaker in the chair.] Purves and Sonya Ignatieff . We also have Susan Low, from the Victoria commun- Routine Business ity action plan on poverty. And from the Christ Church Cathedral we have Rev. Nancy Ford, Director of Deacons, Prayers. diocese of British Columbia. [1005] It's a very active group, a very passionate group. May the House please make them welcome. Introductions by Members J. Horgan: I'm not the only newly elected leader of a Madame Speaker: Kelowna–Lake Country. Minister political in British Columbia. Joining us in the gallery of Agriculture. today…. I'm very excited, on this side of the House, cer- tainly, to introduce Dan Brooks, the leader of the B.C. Hon. N. Letnick: Thank you for both, Madame Conservative Party. I know members on the other side Speaker. Joining us in the members' gallery this mor- will join me in making him very, very welcome. ning is the president of the Pacifi c NorthWest Economic Region, Sen. Kevin Ranker, from Washington State; the Introduction and PNWER CEO, Mr. Matt Morrison; and an eight-member First Reading of Bills delegation of public and private sector leaders accom- panying them on a visit to Victoria. BILL M212 — POVERTY REDUCTION Senator Ranker and the delegation will be meeting AND ECONOMIC INCLUSION ACT, 2014 with several members of the House today to discuss border issues; energy, including natural gas; tourism; M. Mungall presented a bill intituled Poverty environment; workforce development; and other issues. Reduction and Economic Inclusion Act, 2014. Th e delegation will seek advice on how best to showcase British Columbia at the upcoming 24th annual PNWER M. Mungall: I move that the bill intituled the Poverty summit in Whistler in July. All of you are invited, of Reduction and Economic Inclusion Act, of which notice course. PNWER was created in 1981 and is comprised has been given in my name on the order paper, be intro- of Alaska, Idaho, Oregon, Montana, Washington, B.C., duced and read a fi rst time now. Alberta, Saskatchewan, Yukon and Northwest Territories. Would the House please extend a warm welcome to our Motion approved. PNWER delegation. M. Mungall: Poverty lives in British Columbia. It is not J. Darcy: It gives me great pleasure to welcome three something that only happens elsewhere — in Africa, Asia constituents from New Westminster here today. Keely or Latin America. It is an issue here in our communities, George, who is from the Skatin Nation and a resident among people we know. of New Westminster, is an incredible inspiration in our Although B.C. has had the highest rate of overall pov- community. She went back to school to study to get her erty in Canada for 13 years and the highest child poverty grade 12 in her late 20s. She is now a few years older than rate for ten years — 33 percent above the national aver- that and is a real role model for the literacy community age for that decade — government has yet to take action for people of all generations. with a direct legislative approach. We remain one of two With her is Lucy Smith from Samahquam Nation in provinces in Canada without a legislated plan. the Port Douglas area — she's a sister to Keely and won- [1010] derful person in our community, a grandmother raising Today this Poverty Reduction and Economic Inclusion two daughters — and Deborah Goertz, who was a teacher Act seeks to take the needed action to look at the ways to Keely and other adult learners at the New Westminster government can reduce rather than contribute to poverty. school district's adult learning centre. Will the House For example, government could begin reducing child please join me in welcoming these constituents to the poverty by allowing children of single parents receiving House today. income supports to keep their child support payments. Actions taken under the guidance of this act would not M. Mungall: It gives me great pleasure to introduce only identify how best to change this existing policy but the House to a group of very active people in the south others like it, like the policy that forces seniors with dis- Island area, and all throughout B.C. really. We have abilities to take a reduced early Canada pension rather 3510 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2014

than continue receiving persons-with-disabilities bene- for Children and Youth that I think can really improve fi ts. When such policies are identifi ed and changed, we the youth mental health system. Lost in the Shadows: reduce the poverty of real people of our province as a How a Lack of Help Meant a Loss of Hope for One First whole and provide for greater economic inclusion for all Nations Girl. Th is report fi nds that the tragic suicide people calling B.C. home. death of a 14-year-old girl living in a rural B.C. First An advisory committee composed of people from all Nations community reveals a child protection system walks of life, like First Nations representatives, business, that is not reaching the children who need it most. academia, labour, non-profi ts and those experiencing Lastly, as a guide for setting B.C. in the right direc- poverty themselves, will work with government on mak- tion, we should seriously heed the recommendations in ing B.C.'s economy more inclusive. By working together Still Waiting: First-Hand Experiences with Youth Mental we can reduce poverty and eventually make it history. I move that this bill be placed on the orders of the Health Services in B.C. day for second reading at the next sitting of this House aft er today. QUALICUM BEACH DIGITAL ARTS STUDIO

Bill M212, Poverty Reduction and Economic Inclusion Michelle Stilwell: It's my pleasure to share a success Act, 2014, introduced, read a fi rst time and ordered to be story from my riding today. Th e Qualicum Beach Digital placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next Arts Studio operates out of an old train station. It's a dy- sitting of the House aft er today. namic space that is creating some very positive opportun- ities in the community. Th e studio is already attracting Statements talented individuals and companies who value the space (Standing Order 25B) as both a place to work and as a place to network with others in the digital media industry. MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES Th e train station was once a hub of activity back when FOR CHILDREN AND YOUTH the railway was a symbol of innovation. It's fi tting that IN RURAL COMMUNITIES the Internet is oft en called the railway of the 21st cen- tury. Much as the train opened up new markets and fos- J. Rice: It is national Child and Youth Mental Health tered growth in the years gone by, the Internet is a major Week, and tomorrow is Child and Youth Mental Health engine of the world's economy. Th at history makes the Day. Th is year the theme — the "I care about you" cam- station an ideal location for a digital arts studio. It's a paign — aims to connect kids to parents and caring adults to let them know that their mental health is im- natural gathering place, which is important for many of portant to us and that we are there for them as adults. the small companies. Talking to health professionals in my community Some of these fi rms are as small as a single employ- and surveying their opinions, mental health issues are ee who has chosen to live in Parksville-Qualicum not brought up time and time again as a major concern. only to take advantage of our wonderful quality of life Th ere is a greater need for services that are either not of- but also because we are ready and able to support their fered or are off ered but not staff ed. In fact, perusing the high-tech goals. human resources section of my health authority's web- [1015] site, the mental health and addictions worker positions Th ese are jobs that create economic and cultural value are one of the most common job vacancies across north- in the community, supporting sustainable jobs and vi- ern B.C. Th e youth clinician position has been vacant for brant social fabric. In our increasingly connected world, over a year in Prince Rupert. innovation drives opportunity and helps create creative Just recently a murder-suicide has rattled my com- communities. People choose to live in Qualicum Beach munity — a desperate parent at the end of her rope be- or Parksville because of the quality of life our area off ers. cause she felt alone in her struggle and our community It's easier for young people to start families and build a lacked the kind of support she needed to support her teen. home in our community than it is in some of the bigger A teen suicide has spurred a chain reaction of multiple cities where the high-tech industry has played a vital role suicide attempts by other teens. A local Coast Guard offi cer tells me that many of their in the local economy. call-outs are to the various First Nations communities I want to see jobs, good jobs, in my riding, and I that are only accessible by boat or seaplane to medevac think that this collaboration between the town and in- someone who has attempted suicide. Th ese communities dustry, along with the hard work of people like Patricia are extremely isolated and remote and may lack the ne- Huntsman and Jared Shaw, is a great way to create a cli- cessities many of us take for granted. mate that will attract jobs in the industry in the area. I draw attention to two reports from the Representative Th at's something we're all working towards. Tuesday, May 6, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3511

VISION HEALTH MONTH AND Beginning in 1868 the Clinton Annual Ball showcases WORK OF CANADIAN NATIONAL the legacy and heritage of the southern Interior with the INSTITUTE FOR THE BLIND welcoming charms and western-style hospitality of yes- teryear. In the early days before rail, families travelled J. Darcy: May is Vision Health Month. Th is morning by wagon, horseback or on foot to the remote outpost of some of us were honoured and very moved to take part in Clinton, at that time the heart of the Cariboo gold rush. a breakfast sponsored by the Canadian National Institute Th e families of prospectors, miners and ranchers would for the Blind. gather together and dance the night away to folk song Over 135,000 British Columbians are blind or partially and fi ddles. sighted — a staggering number, one in seven people. As The Clinton Annual Ball has survived the Great part of Vision Health Month this year, the CNIB has de- Depression, two world wars and the socioeconomic veloped a healthy vision checklist to help families take changes, continuing as a reminder of the charms of a steps to preserve their sight, because the good news is gentler era. Today elegant ladies and gentlemen dress that 75 percent of vision loss is preventable or treatable. up in their fi nest and celebrate the living history of the Th ere are three checklists on their website — one for kids, colourful characters of the Gold Country. Th e legacy and one for adults and one for seniors. heritage of Clinton is thriving, with the 147th Clinton Speaking of children, I was really struck to learn that Annual Ball celebrations to be held on Saturday, May 17, 80 percent of early learning is visual. When a child's loss at the Clinton Memorial Hall. of vision isn't detected, it's of course very tough for them [1020] to succeed in school and to develop their full potential. I would like the House to join me in recognizing the Too many children are labelled as having learning dis- continuing vitality of the community of Clinton, and I abilities when in fact they suff er from poor vision. hope to see you at the Clinton Ball. Th e CNIB recommends that children have their fi rst eye exam at six months, another before kindergarten B.C. SCHIZOPHRENIA SOCIETY and then every year aft er that — good advice, but some- AND MENTAL HEALTH WEEK thing that is unfortunately beyond the means of many low-income families. CNIB also recommends that eat- R. Fleming: I'd like to recognize a vital non-profi t so- ing a nutritious diet is critical — again a real challenge ciety in my community that works on behalf of people for some families. with mental illness and their families. Th e offi ce of the They urge that children wear eye protection when B.C. Schizophrenia Society's Victoria branch is located they're playing sports and that they wear sunglasses out- in my constituency of Victoria–Swan Lake. side. Finally, the CNIB recommends that children should Th is organization serves the mental health community take breaks from playing video games every 20 minutes of our region. BCSS Victoria provides services for people — something that's very tough, we know as parents, to with mental illness, regardless of their diagnosis, and enforce. supports the people who care about them. Th e BCSS is a And there's some good advice for adults — MLAs in- place of compassionate professionalism, providing help cluded, I would suggest. Every 20 minutes we should take to those who live with anxiety, schizophrenia, bipolar a break from our iPads, our computers or our cell phones disorder or major depression. Th ey help parents, family and focus on something 20 feet away — the Speaker, the and those with a loved one living with these conditions. offi cial opposition, the government, whoever. Th is month marks the 30th anniversary of the Victoria Th e most important thing we can do as legislators branch of the B.C. Schizophrenia Society. It was founded in Vision Health Month is to recommit ourselves to re- in 1984 by a group of people who wanted to improve lo- moving barriers for people with vision challenges in the cal services and support for people with schizophrenia community and the workplace, where blind and partial- and their families. Currently BCSS Victoria is the largest ly sighted British Columbians have an unemployment branch of the B.C. Schizophrenia Society in our province. rate of 30 percent. As a society, as a province, we must Th is 30th anniversary for BCSS Victoria also falls at do better. the same time that we recognize May 5 to 12 as national Mental Health Week. It's a very important event, encour- CLINTON ANNUAL BALL aging people from all walks of life to learn, talk, refl ect and engage with others on all issues relating to mental J. Tegart: I rise in the House today to recognize two health. Mental Health Week was developed because men- signifi cant events in the community of Clinton. Last year tal health and mental illness is a diffi cult and sometimes Clinton celebrated 150 years as an established commun- uncomfortable topic for many. But it is a subject that be- ity and the 50th anniversary celebrating their incorpor- comes infi nitely easier to discuss and to lessen prevalent ation. But those of you who know Clinton know that it stigmas with dialogue that raises awareness and under- is well known for its annual ball, held in May each year. standing. 3512 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2014

Th at is part of what BCSS has worked on for 30 dedi- My question is to the Minister of Social Development. cated years in my community. I would invite all members Can he tell us why he believes that rather than off ering of this House to join me in thanking the executive direc- hope to parents and opportunity to children…? Why tor, Hazel Meredith, and her great staff and volunteers at would he not, with the stroke of a pen, do away with the the B.C. Schizophrenia Society Victoria for the diffi cult clawback and do it today? but tremendously appreciated work they contribute to the community and to recognize this milestone anniver- Hon. D. McRae: Th e government of British Columbia sary for the organization. — Social Development and Social Innovation — provides a wide range of supports to individuals. I've said in this MENINGITIS AWARENESS AND PREVENTION House before that we provide 70 diff erent programs for individuals within this ministry. We serve 175,000 indi- L. Reimer: April 24, 2014, marked the sixth annual viduals in British Columbia. World Meningitis Day. Its purpose is to raise the global Yes, we do look at policy reform as we go forward. profi le of meningitis, emphasize the importance of vac- We've made policy reforms in the past. As the ministry cination and provide support to those dealing with the evolves and we talk to individuals, we talk to families consequences of the disease. and we talk to people involved, we realize that we can al- In Canada not-for-profi ts such as Meningitis Relief ways do a little bit better. As we go forward, we consider Canada embrace a mission of education and public new changes. awareness. Th ey remind us that meningitis can strike At this stage, though, we have to make sure we bal- anyone at any time and it can strike anywhere. ance what we can aff ord with the policies we have. Yes, a In my community I have seen two families horrifi cally stroke of the pen is very cheap in ink, but there are costs impacted by this disease. Th e Chan and the Campbell attached to it. We want to make sure that when changes families both tragically lost young men with tremendous are made, we also have an ability to fund them, because potential in the prime of their lives. Leo Chan and Brodie that is the responsible thing to do. Campbell were both only children to their parents. Both had bright futures ahead of them. Madame Speaker: The Leader of the Official Th ey are not alone. Approximately 1,000 Canadians Opposition on a supplemental. will contract meningitis this year. Of that 1,000, most will be children and teenagers. In fact, meningitis kills or dis- J. Horgan: What about the cost to those families — ables 1.2 million worldwide each year. Tragically, menin- families all across British Columbia — that are strug- gitis can kill within hours and is oft en mistaken for the gling every day to make ends meet? When you have a fl u in its early stages, as symptoms include fever, vomit- parent that is prepared to give child support and have ing, headache, stiff neck, sensitivity to light, drowsiness, that clawed back, where is the hope and opportunity for and muscle and leg pain. those families? Where does it go to? Meningitis is preventable. Th ere are vaccines avail- Another example that's even more appalling than the able to protect against the three major causes of bacter- clawback of child support. Jennifer Buckingham is a ial meningitis. Surrey mother of two. One of her daughters is severely In honour of World Meningitis Day, the message I disabled. She has multiple disabilities. She's on social as- hope to convey today is to please make yourself aware of sistance. She receives child support from the father of the the signs and symptoms and to learn about preventing children, but a month ago the father off ered up a reim- the disease with vaccine protection. bursement for school supplies. When the ministry found out, not only did they claw back the child support pay- Oral Questions ments, but they clawed back the gift of school supplies to those children. INCOME ASSISTANCE POLICY ON As a former teacher, can the minister explain how he CHILD SUPPORT PAYMENTS AND can justify taking money for school supplies away from GOVERNMENT ACTION ON POVERTY children on minimal incomes at a time when costs are soaring? How do you justify that, Minister? J. Horgan: For weeks now members on this side of the House have been raising the issue of clawbacks of child Madame Speaker: Comments through the Chair. support payments to single-parent families. Th e govern- ment has stonewalled and, in fact, has continued to sustain Hon. D. McRae: I'm not going to stand in this House the policy. As an individual who grew up in a single-parent and pretend that every support we have is absolutely per- family, I certainly understand the challenges that it involves fect. Th ey can be evolved. Th ey can be improved upon. for families, for parents and for children. Income assistance is a payment of last resort. We expect [1025] that if there are opportunities for parents to support their Tuesday, May 6, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3513

children, that is the fi rst opportunity. antee success. What guarantees success is an opportun- Th at being said, there are issues that sometimes they ity for families to engage in the economy, to have jobs, struggle with. Th at's why we have a number of supports. to provide opportunities for their children. Th at's what I Yes, there is an income assistance amount that families want to do. As a teacher, I want to make sure young chil- receive. But we also make sure that families have access dren leaving the school system have that opportunity to to things like…. Depending on their circumstances, they get the training and the jobs. Th is side of the House is could have access to bus passes, earning exemptions. dedicated to that. Th ey have opportunities for increased school start-up supplements. M. Mungall: The minister is right to say that pov- We make sure there are supports, but yes, one of the erty isn't new. It has existed for millennia. What would things that we're committed to doing in this province is be new, however, is action from this government. Th at's making sure that families have jobs. We can grow the what would be new. Th at would mean a lot to Jennifer economy and make sure that families, parents — single Buckingham and her family, because they're struggling. parents or families that are together — have the oppor- Th ey're struggling because of Liberal choices. tunity to best support their children and give them the Th ose choices take a total of $750 out of her two daugh- lives that they want to do. ters' hands every month. Being poor means Jennifer's daughters are being bullied at school for not having the Madame Speaker: The Leader of the Official same things as their classmates. Th e girls are stressed Opposition on a supplemental. from the teasing, from not having enough food to eat and not being able to have the same opportunities as J. Horgan: Well, rhetoric doesn't feed hungry children. other kids. Rhetoric doesn't provide a backpack for a child when How can the minister continue to defend the indefens- everyone else in the classroom has a backpack. Th ese are ible? How can he not stop this grievous wrong of taking fundamental issues for people living in poverty. money out of B.C.'s poorest kids? Th e fi rst order of business, I would suggest…. If you're going to leave the exemption and you're going to claw Hon. D. McRae: Th e members opposite talk about a back child support and you're going to take school sup- stroke of a pen to make policy changes to improve the ply money back, why don't you put forward a plan — a lives of British Columbians. I think I should give them real, comprehensive plan? B.C. and Saskatchewan are the some examples of some policies that we've done in this only two provinces in this country that don't have a pov- government to improve the lives of British Columbians. erty reduction plan. I'm sure they support these changes as well. To the minister: if you're going to continue to pull back We've increased the minimum wage to $10.25 per hour. child support, if you're going to take away school sup- plies from impoverished children, at a minimum why It is amongst the highest of any province in Canada. One don't you come up with a plan so the people of British of the things, as well, we've done is reduced the over- Columbia can have some confi dence that you're going to all tax levels in British Columbia by 37 percent in 2001. do something about poverty in this province? Th at keeps money in all persons' pockets, to allow them to spend it on opportunities for their children going for- Hon. D. McRae: I know the member opposite has ward. been Leader of the Opposition for now two days, but I'm sure the members opposite remember that in the he's been involved in government for a very long time. 1990s the lower incomes had to pay income tax. Why? I'm sure he's also very much aware that from 1990 to Well, because they taxed everybody. We want to make 2000, ten years there — I believe the NDP and yourself sure those who can least aff ord it do not pay. were involved there, Madame Speaker and member op- I'm sure the member opposite is also aware that our posite — families living in poverty increased by 42 per- policy for child care subsidies helps 50,000 children every cent. Poverty is not a new invention that's happened in year. We also make sure that 800,000 individuals do not the last ten years. pay MSP premiums. [1030] Talking about investing, over $3.5 billion has been in- We take this issue very seriously. But just because you vested in the last ten years to provide aff ordable housing have a legislative poverty plan, it does not mean success. in British Columbia. I'm sure the members opposite are aware that Quebec I'm not going to sit here in this chamber for a second has a plan in place, and they have not matched B.C. in and say we're done with our work. We'll continue to grow reducing child poverty. Since 2003 we've reduced child the economy in British Columbia and invest in supports poverty in this province by 41 percent. that will help vulnerable people across this province. Ontario has a plan in place, and did you know that child poverty there has increased? A plan does not guar- Madame Speaker: Nelson-Creston on a supplemental. 3514 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2014

M. Mungall: Every time we ask this question in this who work at these clinics were told that their contracts House the minister, or whoever is answering, provides a would be terminated on October 31. At some of these long list of things that they are doing, but they never, ever clinics, nurse practitioners and a pharmacist have already come back to the fact that at the end of the day, B.C. has lost their positions. had the highest rate of child poverty under their watch The Minister of Health has said repeatedly in this for ten years. It's 33 percent above the Canada-wide aver- House that these primary care, multidisciplinary clin- age. Th at's the reality. ics will not be closed and that no patient will be without People in British Columbia are tired of hearing govern- a family doctor. When doctors, nurse practitioners and ment excuses for not taking action today to reduce child other staff are being given pink slips, how can the minis- poverty. With the stroke of a pen, an order-in-council ter continue to make such a claim? that would actually be welcomed by British Columbians could be done, and it would end the clawback of child Hon. T. Lake: To the member, who does not seem to support payments to B.C.'s poorest kids. Th at could hap- recognize that change is necessary to refl ect the change pen, but they are not doing it. Furthermore, they are leav- of the population that is being served: the integrated ing B.C. as one of two provinces in this entire country primary care model of a community health centre is de- that does not have a poverty reduction plan. signed to help a vulnerable population with a complex My question is to the minister. Will he join us in mak- set of needs. Over time the population in the areas of ing a diff erence with a poverty reduction plan, or will he the clinics mentioned by the member has changed, and continue to defend the indefensible, taking money out of Vancouver Coastal has done the responsible thing and the hands of B.C.'s poorest kids? changed the level of services to match the population. [1035] In fact, I toured Raven Song primary health care cen- tre a couple of weeks ago and met all of the dedicated Hon. D. McRae: I'm sure the member opposite heard men and women who serve the community. Now, with my earlier answer when I talked about how, while legis- these changes, Raven Song will off er seven-day-a-week lative plans are well-intentioned, they do not mean abso- service, 12 hours per day, which will result in a net gain lute success. Ontario and Quebec are two examples, and of service hours and improved access for clients, includ- I know their politicians passed those plans with good ing at-risk youth. intentions. It's important to match the right service to the right I know the members opposite understand. Even clients with the right providers. That is what this re- though I would consider a 41 percent decrease in child design is doing, and as much as the members opposite poverty aft er 2003 an incredible step, you know what? hate change — we can see that every day — this is the I would have loved to have got to a higher number. We right kind of change to provide the right kind of service continue to work in this government, in this province, to the vulnerable populations of Vancouver. We'll con- to make sure that we have those supports. I know the tinue to support that. member opposite is well aware that we also spend mon- eys and have programs, and 98,000 households receive Madame Speaker: Member for New Westminster on benefi ts from provincial social housing programs and a supplemental. services. Next year we are introducing the early child- hood tax benefi t. J. Darcy: I think it's important for the minister to I've said this before, and I'll say it again: we're not done understand that the kind of change he's talking about with our policy changes and reforms and our supports. means that thousands of patients with chronic conditions We will evolve them to support individual families across and high needs are going to be without a family doctor. British Columbia. We may not meet the time frame the Th at's the kind of change that this minister is bringing members opposite have. I would love to grow the econ- about. You can call it a redesign or a reprioritization, but omy that much faster, and I would invite the members it is a cut to front-line health care, pure and simple, and opposite to join us in growing the economy of British this reckless cut is coming at a time when 160,000 British Columbia to help families across this province so that we Columbians don't have a family doctor. can make those investments and those supports. Th e Alberta government is moving full speed ahead with the first 24 of 140 planned family care clinics. CHANGES TO COMMUNITY HEALTH Ontario already has 114 multidisciplinary community CARE CENTRES IN VANCOUVER health centres in place, and they are pushing full steam ahead. J. Darcy: Last Wednesday community health work- [1040] ers at the Pacific Spirit, Pine, Evergreen and South Th ese clinics have a proven track record of delivering Community Health centres in Vancouver were notifi ed high-quality, cost-eff ective preventive care and reducing that they were being laid off . Th e next day, physicians emergency visits by 20 percent. Why is this government Tuesday, May 6, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3515

shutting down primary care clinics in Vancouver instead sources at the East Van public health youth clinic. of creating them in rural and urban communities right I know in the NDP world things should never change. across British Columbia? Th at is obvious when we look across. But we will always use the resources of the taxpayers of British Columbia to Hon. T. Lake: Again, it's important to match the ser- optimize health care, to make sure we get the very best vice with the clients that they are serving. I would say it's results and ensure that we meet the needs of the most bordering on irresponsible, the fearmongering that is go- vulnerable people in our society. ing on, on the other side. Dr. Rolando Barrios…. HEALTH CARE SERVICES FOR YOUTH IN VANCOUVER Interjections. D. Eby: We've had 40 years of all-party agreement that Madame Speaker: Members. youth need a dedicated clinic in Metro Vancouver, but this minister knows better. Let's hear about the changes, Hon. T. Lake: Dr. Rolando Barrios is a senior medic- the revisioning that he's talking about. al director of Vancouver Coastal. I met with Dr. Barrios [1045] and many of the members of the primary care team at Th e Pine Free Clinic staff have received their layoff no- Raven Song. He absolutely rejects the opposition claims tices eff ective October 31. Aft er it closes, his government that people will be left without physicians. will be sending vulnerable youth from across the region In the clinics that will not be providing the same ser- to the very same clinics that serve street-involved adults vices, they will be moved over to a fee-for-service model. struggling with chronic and severe addictions, including Th ey can support clients in the area. As Dr. Barrios says, in the Downtown Eastside. it's very disappointing to hear the fearmongering and un- Will the minister pledge to support a dedicated youth- necessary anxiety being caused by the members opposite. only clinic so that young people can get the services they Vancouver Coastal is matching the needs of the clients need in a safe and supportive environment? with the service that is provided to ensure that vulnerable populations get the kind of health care that they need and Hon. T. Lake: Not only do the members opposite have deserve. We'll continue to support that. diffi culty understanding change; they apparently have diffi culty hearing the answer to the last question — when G. Heyman: Perhaps the minister doesn't understand I mentioned that the youth hub will be created at Raven that anxiety is being caused by the removal of services Song to improve access to service for youth, that in fact that people do depend on, that vulnerable people depend there will be an East Van public health youth clinic locat- on and that are matched to the needs that they have. ed at the Robert and Lily Lee community health centre to Th e Pine Free Clinic has been part of the community make sure that there are supports in place for youth. We bordered by Vancouver-Fairview, Vancouver–Point Grey just doubled the supports for youth at St. Paul's. and Vancouver–False Creek for four decades. If it clos- We have increased supports for youth throughout the es, young people in Vancouver will lose a critical lifeline. province of British Columbia. We will continue to do Th is is a place where they can ask questions about sexual that. But that doesn't mean that we will just have one health or get help coping with depression. model and see it through to the end of time. We will re- As one patient writes: "Any questions I have, any time spond to the needs of the patients of British Columbia I'm scared, I know I can go to Pine Free and be taken care and provide them with the interdisciplinary health care of. I don't have access to anywhere else." If this clinic dis- that they, in fact, deserve and that will give them the best appears, many young people will struggle alone. results possible. Is the minister turning his back on Vancouver's com- munity health clinics and the people who depend on IMPACT OF them, or will he pledge today to keep Pine Free Clinic FERRY SERVICES VESSEL CHANGES open? ON PASSENGERS WITH MOBILITY ISSUES

Hon. T. Lake: As I mentioned, we know that change C. Trevena: The Discovery coast ferry route is be- is very diffi cult for the members opposite. Th ey cannot ing changed. Th is government is replacing the Queen think that anything should ever change. Th e member of Chilliwack, which has long served the route, with the opposite is concerned about youth. Th e redesign will Nimpkish, a vessel that could only fi t one-third of the actually improve access to service for youth through number of vehicles. I think even Liberal math would the creation of the youth hub at Raven Song as well as show that that's going to have a severe economic impact, additional physician hours at the Th ree Bridges Primary when you have one-third on the vehicles on the car deck. Care Clinic and an increase of primary care physician re- But there is another serious problem with this ves- 3516 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2014

sel. It's going to be impossible for people with mobility down with tourism operators and fi nd a way of keeping at issues to access the lounge. In a swell the car deck on the least the Chilliwack for this season so that they can con- Nimpkish — which takes that one-third fewer vehicles — tinue their business, bringing in income for the province can fl ood, and overheight vehicles have to be tied down of B.C., bringing tourists to the province of B.C.? Or is to make sure that they're safe when the waves break over he going to just close the door on the province and close the deck, so they don't move around. the door on the coast? Passengers with disabilities won't be able to access the lounge. Th ey're going to be stuck on that car deck. My Hon. T. Stone: Well, certainly, it's not that much of a question to the Minister of Transportation is: will the surprise, I would suggest, that an NDP economic analy- minister act now to ensure that there is a proper, ad- sis would suggest that a route which loses $7.35 million equate ferry that will serve the people as well as the econ- per year and would lose upwards of $15 million per year omy of the central coast? Or is he simply going to wait for if there was a new vessel procured for that route, when the lawsuits to fl ood in? that route only moves between 500 and 600 vehicles a year on the direct connection from Port Hardy to Bella Hon. T. Stone: Again, let's remember the purpose be- Coola, somehow demonstrates respect for the taxpayers hind this decision. As a government we were very clear of British Columbia. with the people of British Columbia, particularly those On this side of the House we happen to believe that in coastal communities, well before the last election, cer- there is an important balance to strike. Th at balance is, tainly through the election and ever since, over the last on the one hand, absolutely making sure that the basic year, that we are going to make the tough decisions to service levels that are required for coastal communities ensure that the ferry service in British Columbia, which are there, that the service is aff ordable and sustainable we're all very proud of, is sustainable, that it's aff ordable, for the long term but that taxpayers are well respected. and that it's there for the long term. I want to specifi cally mention one other piece. Th e Now, specifi c to route 40, the route that the member member opposite has suggested to some degree that per- has asked about, this is a route that was being subsid- haps there are accessibility issues at B.C. Ferries. Surely, ized by the taxpayers of British Columbia to the tune of the member opposite isn't saying that the many, many $2,500 per vehicle. We believe on this side of the House investments that B.C. Ferries has made up and down the that that's not sustainable. It moved only 500 vehicles on coast at ferry terminals and on ferry vessels haven't dem- average last year. onstrated our commitment to ensuring that this ferry We're working very hard to strike a balance between service is absolutely as accessible as it possibly can be. continuing to provide the services that are critically need- ed in coastal British Columbia, all the while ensuring that MANAGEMENT OF INTERFACE FIRE RISKS we're doing so with the utmost respect for the taxpayers of British Columbia. N. Macdonald: We've been fortunate to avoid mas- sive wildfi re seasons the last number of years, but I think Madame Speaker: Th e member for North Island on everyone understands that just a few hot weeks in any a supplemental. summer or any period of time could mean that we could be into some really dangerous times with wildfi re. Fuel C. Trevena: I think the minister would have more management in the wildland-urban interface to date has credibility if he'd actually done any economic analysis been expensive and of limited value, meaning that 4 per- before making these cuts and if he'd done as he'd said, cent of this critically important work has been completed actually look people in the eye when he's going around since the 2003 Filmon report. implementing these cuts. Last July the opposition laid out a three-point plan to [1050] protect communities from wildfi res by managing fuel Th is is also a human rights issue. We're talking about buildup in wildland-urban interface areas. Amongst people with disabilities who could be stuck on a car deck other things, the minister will remember that we called in bad weather, who have no access to anywhere but that for incentives in the legal framework to create bioenergy car deck. It's such a shortsighted move. products and cogeneration plants using feedstock from Th ere is a huge economic impact that is going to hap- the interface buff er. pen, not just for the people on the coast but into the So the question for the minister is…. He agreed with Interior along the Cariboo-Chilcotin. Th e minister still the idea almost a year on. Would the minister tell us what has time to fi x this massive mistake of Liberal math, mak- work has been done to implement this plan to safeguard ing sure that we don't have tourism operators going out our communities from wildfi res? of business and an industry that is just building up be- ing wrecked. Hon. S. Th omson: I thank the member opposite for So I ask the minister, will he seriously address this, sit his question. It provides me the opportunity, fi rstly, to Tuesday, May 6, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3517 recognize the great work of the wildfi re management aries redistribution act. branch in the ministry and the preparation work they Yesterday I didn't get too far into being able to respond are doing now for the upcoming season — over 1,000 to the bill. But the point that I was trying to make…. employees well prepared for the season and the training I'll reiterate it just to begin there again, and why this is underway currently — and, again, to be able to convey an issue for the public of British Columbia. We went the message and the importance of the public awareness through the inglorious history of electoral boundary re- and education campaign around acting responsibly and distribution in B.C. and the reform movement, beginning safely in the outdoors and around our communities. 30 years ago, to clean up the practice of how electoral [1055] boundaries are decided in British Columbia. As you know already, with the wildfi res that have start- I think many members on this side of the House have ed — and we had some fl urry of activity early — all of made the point that aft er having ridden a wave of public them human-caused, again, the message is around ensur- outcry and a demand for independence and democratic ing that we continue to create that awareness and educa- legitimacy around how boundaries are decided in British tion about acting safely. Columbia, Bill 2 represents a fundamental backsliding in With respect to the individual initiatives, we continue that direction. Th e year is 2014, and we are seeing a ma- to fund the wildfi re interface management program, with jor intrusion into the independence of Elections British local governments taking action. We have brought in new Columbia and the elections commission that decides how tenure tools — fi bre supply licences to cut, supplemental the map is divided up and who is ultimately a representa- forest licences that are assisting in increasing waste util- tive in this place and what regions and communities they ization in the province, bringing that waste out and be- stitch together to create a constituency in the province ing utilized. We have an increase in the pellet industry of British Columbia. Th at is a warning sign, Mr. Speaker. in British Columbia. Waste is being utilized, and we con- [1100] tinue to provide tenure tools and licensing opportunities When a bill like this ties the hand and puts in a straight- in order to support that. jacket the independence and the ability, the scope of the three-member panel that's independently appointed on [End of question period.] what they can look at and what they can recommend in the way this bill does by red-circling 17 ridings out of 85 Petitions and leaving aside and setting up a category of 68 constitu- encies, you have a greatly reduced ability for the commis- D. Eby: Hon. Speaker, I rise to table a petition from sion to actually make decisions. the University Women's Club of Vancouver, calling on You have taken away one of the fundamental things the provincial government to establish a poverty reduc- that an independent election commission must do, based tion plan. on a century of practice. It's based on, actually, jurispru- dence going back to the foundation of Canada, to the M. Mungall: I have here a petition of 1,217 postcards fi rst Prime Minister of Canada, Sir John A. Macdonald, calling on the government to take action and implement when we were involved in drawing up how federal gov- a poverty reduction plan in this province. ernment works — that is, balancing several sometimes competing interests in order to get a map that maybe Orders of the Day everybody doesn't agree with but that today, in the 21st century, passes the test of independence, passes the test of Hon. M. de Jong: Madame Speaker, in Committee A, legitimacy and, most importantly, passes the test of bal- Committee of Supply — for the information of members, ancing the competing interests and considerations that the estimates of the Ministry of Technology, Innovation that independent panel must consider. Th ose are, for the and Citizens' Services; and in this chamber, continued most part, geographic size. second reading debate on Bill 2. Th e panel — even before, especially before, this gov- ernment intruded on what its mandate is going to look Second Reading of Bills like, should this bill become law — is already obligated to ensure that we don't have ridings that are unduly large BILL 2 — ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES and unmanageable for an MLA. Th ey have to consider COMMISSION AMENDMENT ACT, 2014 that. First of all, I expect that the three distinguished (continued) panelists would do that of their own course, but in or- der to ensure that is the case, it's there in the legislation [R. Chouhan in the chair.] already. Th ey have to balance the geographic size con- siderations of a riding with what is considered to be fair R. Fleming: I appreciate the opportunity to continue in terms of the value or the relative power of a vote in B.C. remarks from yesterday on Bill 2, the electoral bound- Th ey have to look at geographic size at the same time 3518 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2014

that they look at population. Th e province of British still remember Gracie's Finger — I mentioned it in de- Columbia, as we know, changes very quickly, even in bate yesterday — and how you could have the absolute a decade. Wouldn't it have been interesting, hypothet- absurdity of bypassing neighbourhoods and bisecting a ically speaking, if, as part of the negotiations as an act of part of urban Vancouver to make a safe seat for an in- union between Vancouver Island and mainland British cumbent minister, who hoped at that time to become Columbia, Vancouver Island had negotiated, as some the Premier of British Columbia. Th at created a spark of eastern and maritime provinces negotiated in the foun- outrage in B.C. that led to a modern reform movement dations of our federation in the Constitution of Canada, that we fi nd today. a guaranteed number of seats? We're on the slippery slope of going back and forget- Th at would have been probably a reasonable debate at ting the lessons of 30 years ago by taking as many as 17 the time of the act of union. It might have even been a constituencies in B.C. and saying that they can't change. reasonable debate up until World War I, because Victoria Th e other constituencies are the only things that can be was both the commercial and the population centre of considered. We're reducing the scope and independence the province. Th at changed, of course, with the terminus of the commission to such a great extent that anything coming to Vancouver and the end of World War I and else aft er that, unfortunately, becomes possible. If the settlement patterns and investments and where industry government gets away with it, they'll be so emboldened located. But that didn't happen. that they'll try other kinds of things that mess around Now we're talking about, at least for the next dec- with the independence and the authority around how ade and possibly beyond, embedding a distortion in the elections are conducted in B.C. It's important that they Electoral Boundaries Act that is based on red-circling 17 not be allowed to do that. constituencies in B.C., saying: "Th ese shall" — not may, I mean, other members in this chamber have pointed shall — "be protected from any consideration during re- out how arbitrary those 17 constituencies are that have distribution." Th ey have to be the same, and that is now been selected in the province. I shouldn't say arbitrary. It putting a lens or a template on electoral boundary redis- appears arbitrary when one looks at it. But if one under- tribution in B.C. that ties the hands of the commission stands that the 17 constituencies were primarily chosen to be able to balance those fundamental considerations on the basis of how they vote and whether they vote and between population distribution and what a reasonable return governing members more oft en than they elect geographic size for a constituency is. Th is is a slippery opposition members, then it becomes pretty obvious slope. what we're dealing with here at the heart of this bill. [1105] This is about protecting a governing majority and I'm not going to say it's a straight line between what skewing the changes in the province's demographics and British Columbia may look like should this bill become the lay of the land geographically, if it suits them political- law and redistribution proceeds along the lines that ly. It's an absolute aff ront to why the boundaries commis- the government intends it to. I'm not going to say it's a sion process was initially established in the modern era. straight line between that and the practices we see down If you look in the 17 constituencies that are red-circled, in states like California or how congressional districts you fi nd the major thing they have in common is that are decided in the United States. But it's getting closer they generally vote Liberal. Aft er that, it's pretty hard to and closer. tell what they do have in common. I don't know what If you ever want to see the most ugly democratic prac- parts of northern British Columbia, per se, which are tice imaginable, you only have to go down to the United large constituencies…. Th at has to be considered and can States and look at how they decide what a constituency be considered by the Boundaries Commission. Th ose are looks like for, say, a congressional election. Politicians — defi nitely rural constituencies. Th ose are defi nitely areas not independent commissions but politicians, who nat- that are far away from the capital and are hard to service. urally seek re-election — put together their own maps. I appreciate the MLAs who do that job and how dif- It's a process that is absolutely the opposite of transpar- fi cult and diff erent it is from urban MLAs. But if you ency. It is absolutely the opposite of independence. go into the list of 17 constituencies, I have to ask why It is all about politics and negotiations and trade-off s growing communities like Kamloops are in there, which from the two-party system that they have in the United are distinctly urban. We're talking about a regional States, and it ends up ensuring that you have districts that metropolitan hub for the southern interior of British have nothing in common with each other, other than how Columbia. Now, all of a sudden, those two constituen- they have historically voted. It doesn't look at geography, cies are deemed rural. it doesn't look at diversity, and it doesn't look at popu- [1110] lation growth. It looks at how incumbents can get re- Th is is a city in excess of 100,000 people. Th is is a city elected. Th at becomes the prime directive and is, in many that is a regional supply centre, that has a university, states in the United States and for congressional elections. that has a downtown which is a regional hub for many We were on that path here in British Columbia. People other communities. Now, all of a sudden, the Electoral Tuesday, May 6, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3519

Boundaries Commission is prohibited from reviewing dering or attempts to fi x the deck in favour of one party and looking at and making recommendations about that or another. Th ey have told me loud and clear that they community? Th e same with Prince George, the urban will accept nothing but. hub of northern B.C. Th e commission is prohibited from Th is bill tends to, I think, attempt to claim it's doing looking at that. Now, why might that be? one thing when really it's trying to do another. It says Well, the commission in its wisdom over the last that it's about ensuring some communities are protect- couple of iterations about the electoral map has decided ed and have good representation. While on one side of that Prince George does not deserve and shouldn't have its mouth the government claims those communities a purely urban riding. Th ey have had a sort of hub-and- are growing, this bill seems to suggest that much of the spoke map. I'm not going to go back and argue whether province is shrinking, that there are fewer people living that was good or bad. What's the point? In fact, I will in the northeast, fewer people living in the northwest. defend that decision because it was made independently. Out the other side of the government's mouth it claims, But I will question the inability now of the commission and we have seen, that population has been increasing to look at Prince George. Th at completely lacks legitim- in a number of parts of the province because of changing acy — that they're prescribed and prohibited from look- economic opportunities. ing at Prince George, but they can look at 68 other ridings. Th e government is trying to have it both ways, trying It's got to be about one British Columbia. We're all both to say that their seats need to be protected because the same. We're all captured by the legislation in terms there are too few people and, at the same time, claiming of our voting interests. Th e democratic balance is best that the economy is booming and that there are a gazil- served by an independent panel that is appointed based lion people running to these communities. on expertise and is above and beyond reproach for hav- [1115] ing any partisan or political interests. Th at's what's at Under the court rulings, we understand that special stake in this debate. circumstances can be considered when designing seats, I have very serious concerns about this bill. Th is is one when an independent commission is establishing an elec- of the worst off ences that you can commit in a chamber toral map, establishing where representatives represent. like this: to take legislation that was the product of hard- Th ey say "in very special circumstances," not whenever fought gains by citizens in British Columbia to move to we feel like it, not that we can change riding boundaries an independent model — to take the electoral boundaries to refl ect our own desires however we want, just because process out of the back rooms and put it in the light of it's a nice thing to do or it represents self-interest or might day — and now in 2014 to put a straightjacket on that be good for one political party or another. No, they talk process. Th e government will try and get away with say- about truly exceptional or extraordinary circumstances. ing, "Hey, it's still independent," even though they have Th is bill decides — I guess, like a parent — that every- stacked the deck, changed the terms of reference and pro- body is unique, special, truly extraordinary and that 17 hibited this new commission from looking at a huge part seats should be hived off and protected specially, for now of British Columbia. into forever, without having the opportunity for an in- Th is is divisive. Th is is wrong, and this is going to tilt dependent commission to decide on what would best re- the playing fi eld in British Columbia so that it skews the fl ect the demands and desires of the public. electoral map. It is about crass partisan interests and I oppose this legislation because I think we need to nothing else. I have not been persuaded by a single mem- be preserving the integrity and the independence of ber on the other side that's participated in this debate so the Electoral Boundaries Commission, not supporting far that it's about anything else. a Liberal boundary commission or a New Democrat For those reasons, Mr. Speaker, I would thank you for boundary commission or a Conservative boundary com- the opportunity to speak to this bill this morning. I will mission but an independent boundary commission, one be voting against Bill 2, and I hope it's defeated, in the that truly listens to the people of this province, not to the interests of democracy in British Columbia. partisan interests and not to the politicians, one that lis- tens to the public who, aft er all, are the ones we are here S. Chandra Herbert: I rise, as well, in opposition to to represent and who elect us through our ridings. Bill 2, the Electoral Boundaries Commission Amendment Now, I represent Vancouver–West End. It's a very Act, 2014. I rise to oppose this because my constituents urban seat. It's a very dense seat. Instead of 19 kilometres have been clear to me: they want fair elections. between homes, we have 19- or 20-storey buildings. We It's been clear — whether or not it's the federal changes have 35-storey buildings. We have the tallest tower in to the Elections Act, which they've told me they strongly British Columbia in my riding — a very diff erent area to oppose, or the question of whether or not it's gerryman- try to represent than other communities across the prov- dering of riding boundaries or even municipal elections ince. But it's not easy. Some seem to suggest that it's so and campaign spending issues — they want democracy hard to represent some parts of the province but it's easy to be clean, to be fair and to have no whiff of gerryman- to represent urban Vancouver or urban British Columbia. 3520 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2014

Th e demands are diff erent. It's a lot harder, in some also don't decide, as a rural constituency, the Boundary ways, to connect to constituents. You can't just walk up constituency. Th ey've decided to leave this out of their through the picket fence and knock on the door, because 17 protected seats for some reason but decided to put there really might be only one picket fence in my entire Kamloops south in. constituency. You have a challenge to reach people and Now, I love Kamloops. It's where my parents met. It's also a very high turnover rate of people moving, people a beautiful community. Great people and an incred- arriving, people changing apartments. So it's diffi cult to ible tourism industry there. But I would wonder — and build relationships, but it's also incredibly exciting. I think some of the people I talk to in Kamloops won- What this bill seems to suggest is that for urban areas der…. Th ey said: "Well, why are they freezing us in time there is no problem, no challenge representing incred- while leaving the Boundary country, which is geograph- ibly large numbers of people. Well, I'll tell you. When I ically bigger, in many respects, and more diff use, not in- was fi rst elected, I represented Vancouver-Burrard — the cluded? Why is that?" entire peninsula of downtown Vancouver, approximate- Well, I don't know the answer to that, because the gov- ly 90,000 people — while some of my colleagues in this ernment has not eff ectively shown why they've decided Legislature were representing constituencies of maybe to freeze 11 of their seats in time to protect them and to 25,000 people. Th eir constituents had eff ectively 3½ and protect their majorities, their electoral wins in those seats, a bit votes. In a sense, their vote was worth that much the cynic would say. more than my constituents' at the time. I would argue that without any other evidence, which Th e Electoral Boundaries Commission recognized that the government hasn't shown, I could understand why and said that wasn't fair, that it didn't make sense that I people would think that. I could understand why people had to represent so many people and that they had one would think this was Liberals protecting Liberals, be- vote electing me, whereas another British Columbian had cause they have not demonstrated any real clarity for how eff ectively 3½ times the power for their vote at that time. they chose seats to protect and those they chose not to. What they did is they changed the boundaries — so now I Just because your riding is big doesn't mean that it's represent Vancouver–West End — and established a new harder to represent than one that is somewhat small- riding, Vancouver–False Creek. Th at made sense. Th at's er. Th e reason I say that is that you can look at one seat how the process is supposed to work. where the vast majority of the population lives in maybe Th ey considered communities of interest. Th ey moved two towns or a city and a town, and there are a couple boundary lines around to refl ect, to the best ability they hundred, maybe a thousand or two, spread out every- had as independent people…. A retired judge; a lay- where else. person, who connects and has expertise; and another. Whereas there can be somebody who represents a Th ey decided that the boundaries should be this way aft er small area but their people are spread all over the place, hearing from the community. maybe harder to represent because there are no clear What the Liberals have decided to do with this bill town boundaries, there are no clear total hubs of one or is to say that for 17 ridings they don't have that ability. two hubs that you can drive between, have offi ces in and Th ey're not able to refl ect the population changes, growth, represent in the same way. diminishment and what have you for the entire province Now, I love this province, and I try to get to know it because they've restricted and frozen 17 seats in time, and travel around it and get to meet people. Th at's the whether or not those seats are growing in population or only way that I, as a representative of Vancouver–West shrinking or whether or not other seats are growing in End, can truly understand what's going on for my col- population or shrinking. leagues, for members on the opposite side, and under- It's interesting to look at what they've decided to pro- stand their arguments in a better way so that it's not one tect. Of course, 11 of those seats are currently held by view but I can hear many views. Liberal members. But what's challenging with this is they I think that's one of the great benefi ts of this Legislature. claim this is about allowing people to better represent We do get to hear from people from all across the prov- their constituents, but they've also decided to leave out ince. But we do that knowing that those people were fair- constituencies not currently held by the Liberals which, ly elected. We do that knowing that their seats have not I would argue, are just as challenging to represent geo- been designated by some secretive group who've decided graphically, if not more so, than some of the constituen- to protect partisan interests as opposed to the public in- cies they've decided to protect, the Liberal constituencies. terest, because it's vital for our understanding of demo- [1120] cracy that the popular will is heard. Of course, you look at Powell River–Sunshine Coast, Now, this bill is about electoral boundaries. It's not and you look at North Coast — some of these areas about the electoral systems. Th ose we can save for an- which are very diffi cult because you have to fl oat-plane other day. Certainly, there's much to debate and discuss in to get to places. You have to ferry and travel and travel there, as we've seen over the years, a strong desire for re- and drive and drive, and it's diffi cult to get to. But they form to make this place work better and be more truly Tuesday, May 6, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3521

representative. mission to do their job. Th at's how we will build trust in If we go back to the idea of very special circumstances, the process. Th at's how we will not have gerrymandered truly exceptional or extraordinary circumstances, that's a ridings like they have in the United States. very high bar for the minister to meet, to have to prove. You look at some of these ridings. Th ey're crazy. A little Some have argued, very eff ectively, I believe, that this bill pocket here, a little pocket there, a little pocket over there will not pass constitutional muster, that it does not eff ect- — mass diff erences in between, kind of a Rorschach test, ively argue for why these special protections for 17 seats where you look at them and you…. Is that an animal? Is — not one or two, but 17 seats — would be necessary. that a butterfl y? What is that? Th at's not a constituency. Unless the minister is able to rise in this House and Th at can't eff ectively be a united community of interest. provide a defi nitive argument about why these particu- But because they've let partisan interests rule the day, lar 17 seats were protected as opposed to others that are that's what they've got. You get seats which are, for gen- more diff use, others that have in some ways greater chal- erations, one party, where in eff ect, what they have be- lenges, I can't support this legislation, because no eff ect- come is rotten boroughs, places where the party controls, ive and good argument has been made. as opposed to the people. I thank the minister for delaying this legislation, the I like competition. I'm a team sports player. I'm a per- House Leader for delaying this legislation, introduced son who likes to get into the thick of it, make my argu- early in the session but then halted because the govern- ments and see where the chips fall — to completely ment heard from us on this side that we wouldn't support confuse metaphors — but this bill does not create that it, that it didn't look fair, that it didn't look non-partisan situation. In fact, it seems to solidify secure ridings for and that the electoral system was eff ectively, we argue, Liberals, and that's not something that we should support. being stacked in the deck in favour of the B.C. Liberals. You know, the last time I checked, the government was So I'm glad the minister stopped the debate at that point. claiming they were about the free market. Th ey really ap- I had hoped that they would have withdrawn the bill plauded competition, and they wanted more competition, at that time and let the independent commission do its and they wanted fair rules. Th is bill does the opposite. It work. Th at would have been a good response. Th at would decides to protect certain Liberal seats and solidify them have been to hear from the public, to hear from con- in time in a kind of amber so that we can look at them cerned members of this Legislature and to try to get to a — like the fl y in Jurassic Park, frozen in time. You know, non-partisan solution here. there are certainly some exciting ideas that come out of [1125] that movie, but I don't think that freezing a politician or You know, the suggestion that we are going to bring in a fl y in amber in time from now into perpetuity is the two more seats, and maybe this will somehow help things right move. — two more legislators here will help things and make it We need debate. We need diverse opinions. We need fair — I don't know where the government has got that that competition to represent the public in a better way from. I don't know. and to appeal to the best in them so that they can appeal My constituents tell me they like the work I'm doing, to the best in us to get the best for our province. but they don't tell me they want more politicians. Th ey I will be opposing this legislation. I think there are ef- don't tell me they want another one of me or another one fective ways that we can increase the representation of of somebody else in this place to increase the number of rural British Columbia if the rural constituents are able politicians. Th ey did say: "Could we have another one of to eff ectively show the challenges they have getting their you to work extra hard, to double up your eff orts?" I did voices heard by their MLAs if their MLAs are not able tell them I have a twin brother. He is a very fi ne person, to be eff ective. but thankfully, he is not running to be a member of this But you know, when I've travelled this province, Legislature at this time. He is, instead, holding politicians whether or not it's in Prince George or Hazelton or Fort to account and asking some pretty tough questions up St. John or others, I ask them. I say: "Let's put politics Kamloops way. But my point is that the public thinks that aside. Is your MLA accessible? Are you able to reach we are supposed to do what we can with what we've got. them? Do you fi nd because your riding is so big that you We're in tight fi scal times, as we always are. Th ere are can never actually get to hear from them?" What they tell always challenges to pay for things that we desire and we me is: "Well, you know, I sent them an e-mail the other need. It doesn't matter — any day. Th at's always a chal- day. Th eir staff wrote back to me, and I was able to get my lenge. We always have to manage the public's money situation resolved." I hear that quite oft en. wisely. I think, with that in mind, that this bill doesn't do Now, we could go to the partisan level. Certainly, there that. Th is bill clearly doesn't do that. Adding more pol- are those that like to say, "Well, because they are from that iticians, opening yourself up to a potential major court party, they don't hear my interest," and I've heard that. fi ght, all to protect the interests of 17 constituencies — in [1130] particular, majority Liberal constituencies — is not the Quite oft en, whether or not it's a poverty reduction right way. We need to empower the independent com- strategy or other things people want and their member 3522 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2014

is from a diff erent party, they don't always get the results how he represents them just by being out on the street. they want. But they do say that if the MLA is good and if He bumps into people. they are going to likely get re-elected because they work My experience as a new MLA is that I come from a hard for the community, that generally, they're able to suburban area. Standing on the street, I may not bump reach them. Generally, they're able to connect with them. into people, but I certainly have easy access, and people Certainly, I've seen from colleagues on this side who rep- have easy access to me. resent rural B.C. that they're oft en on the phone talking Th en I talk to my colleague, for example, from North to constituents and representing them in the same way Coast, who talks about getting to some of the remote that I am. areas of her constituency once every few months be- I do a lot of the work that I do as an MLA over the cause the only way in is with a fl oat plane because of the phone, by e-mail as well as in person. So there are many remoteness of her community. ways to connect to members of the Legislature. More I really do appreciate that we all serve our constituents and more, it's via Twitter or Facebook or other innova- as best we can with the kind of terrain and kind of popu- tions that have allowed us to in some ways shrink the lation that we serve. size of the province so that members of the Legislature I also was pleased to hear my colleague from West End and the information that we have here is more access- speak to the value of social media and e-mail and how ible for the public. that has brought us so much closer and made it so much I will be opposing this legislation. I am concerned that easier to represent our constituents in all of our diff erent the government has decided that their might is more communities, making us far more accessible. powerful than the might and the will of the public to have But what I fi nd really, really troubling about this bill their voices independently elected, independently design is that…. When we're taking a look at changing elector- the electoral boundaries. al boundaries, we need to make sure that it's impartial, When I was a young boy, my parents were talking that it's fair and that it's independent. Really, somebody about Gracie's fi nger. I thought that was such an interest- from outside of this House ought to be taking a look at ing term. I didn't quite know what it meant at the time. what needs to happen, what needs to change in order to We lived close to Vancouver–Little Mountain. Th ey said make sure that it's done from a non-partisan perspective. that the area that had been taken out of a Socred seat was [1135] put into Grace McCarthy's seat to make her win more I value democracy, as I'm sure everybody else in this convincing, I suppose, and it just struck me as wrong. I House values democracy. On Remembrance Day we said: "Why would they take a fi nger?" And they had to all have these opportunities to speak in our commun- show me on the map that a fi nger was a section of the ities about those who fought for democracy, those who city which had been represented by one and then slapped lost their lives so that we could have the freedoms that onto a diff erent area. we have. If we taint that democracy, if we taint it with a I think the comment a friend of my parents' said was: hint of partisanship, then we've lost. We've all lost, and "Well, Gracie's fi nger is giving democracy the fi nger." I those who gave their lives have lost too — because then was confused at the time, but when my parents explained we don't have the principles of fairness and impartiality it to me and said, "But don't do that yourself; that's a bad working for us. Th at's a basic tenet of democracy. thing; you shouldn't give anybody the fi nger," I was sur- One of the things that worries me about what we prised that our democracy would do such a thing, given have before us in this bill is that it has lost some of this that I was brought up to really believe in democracy and independence, impartiality and fairness. Red-circling believe in fair electoral processes and having our voices 17 ridings…. I believe the words were because they are heard in this House. "most sparsely populated or geographically remote." I I hope that this legislation will be defeated. I hope the thought: "Okay, well that makes sense. Th at's a reason- minister will hear this loud and clear. I hope that the able rationale." public will have their chance to have their voices repre- What kind of test gets used to identify these 17 ridings? sented in this House in a fair and honest and open way What are the measures that you use? Any changes need to that refl ects constituencies at their best, not at their par- be credible. So what is the credibility of this government, tisan worst. using, in order to identify what is sparsely populated and geographically remote…? S. Robinson: I'm pleased to stand up today and take In looking at which of these 17 areas are going to be my place in this debate. I, too, stand in opposition of red-circled, as they call them — safe seats, not redistrib- this bill. When I think about the need to change elec- uted — we learn that Kamloops and Prince George are toral boundaries and I think about the idea of fairness considered safe seats. Th ey are not going to be redistrib- and how it is that we as MLAs have to represent our con- uted in any way. stituents…. I hear what my colleague from the West End I don't know how many in this House would know this, talks about in terms of the density of his community and but I consider myself a city mouse, not really much of a Tuesday, May 6, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3523

country mouse. I love to go to the country. I like to dig certainly not something that I'd want to live in, in my re- in the dirt. I like remote; remote is lovely. I will visit re- tirement. Like I said, we're certainly going to be having mote, and I will visit isolated but not keen to stay there our own debates about this. long term. It's going to be very interesting for my hus- What worries me about this is that what we're looking band and I as we talk about retirement. We're not there at is not about the criteria that this government is put- yet, but he wants to go remote, and I want to go to Coal ting forward. Certainly, North Coast wasn't put on this Harbour. So it's going to be very interesting to see how list. Sechelt wasn't put on this list as remote or sparsely we address that. populated. I thought: "Well, maybe if I take a look at what this From my perspective, and certainly from constituents government identifi es as remote, sparsely populated, we that I represent, it starts to looks surprisingly like this no- might be able to fi nd some middle ground." In doing tion of fairness is being severely compromised. Th is no- some of this research, I thought, "Well, maybe we could tion of impartiality is being severely compromised and, move to Kamloops or to Prince George in our retirement," certainly, the independence that people gave their lives because according to the government side of the House, for so that we'd have a good democracy. Th ose princi- Kamloops and Prince George are sparsely populated and ples are being compromised here in what's being pro- geographically remote. So this might be where we retire. posed in this bill. In doing my research on Kamloops, I went to their I'm actually quite disappointed. I really expected bet- city's website, and I said: "Okay, how remote is it? Will it ter. I expected that there would be certain principles that meet my husband's needs?" Th e website says: would be adhered to and that the commission would "Kamloops is strategically located at the intersection of western have full independence and the full ability to be impartial Canada's four major highways: the Coquihalla, Trans-Canada, and fair, to act in the best interests of all the citizens of Yellowhead and Highway 97. It's serviced by both national railways, is the meeting location of the South and North Th ompson rivers our province and to make the recommendations for elec- and home to the Kamloops Airport. toral boundary adjustments as they would see fi t. Th at's "Th e city has a growing population of almost 86,000 within not what we're seeing here in this bill. For that reason, the city and 128,473, including the city and regional district. I'm in opposition. Kamloops is home to Canada's most comprehensive university, Th ompson Rivers University, is Canada's tournament capital" — I know that because I've been there lots — "and has a lifestyle like no K. Corrigan: I'm rising to speak in opposition to this other, with 82 parks, 200 lakes, ski hills and golf courses." bill. Th e right to vote and the integrity of the voting sys- Where it certainly meets my needs as the city mouse, tem are fundamental tenets of any democracy. I think my husband would be, I think, rather disappointed, given they need to be treated as a sacred trust. Any changes that that it's not one of the most sparsely populated or geo- are made to something that is so fundamental must be, graphically remote areas of our province. It's quite the and must be seen to be, impeccably non-partisan, trans- stretch, actually, but I'll try it on him and see if I could parent and defendable. I submit that this legislation does sneak that past him. not meet that test. As for Prince George, what's interesting…. I went to Whether it is true or not, there can be an appearance their website. It's known as B.C.'s northern capital. It's a that the motivation for parts of this bill is political, and it bustling city with a population of approximately 76,000, can appear to be political on two major fronts. situated at the crossroads of Highway 97 and Highway 16 First of all, as many of my colleagues have pointed and at the confl uence of the Fraser and Nechako rivers. out, coincidentally or not, 11 of the 17 seats that are pro- [1140] tected by this bill are Liberal seats. Th at raises questions. It's a major city of the Pacific Rim, and it's firmly Whether or not there is any truth to the fact that the tied to the global market. Th e city of Prince George is Liberals are bringing in legislation for political purposes, a vibrant, active and diverse community that provides a as I said earlier, the changes must be seen to be impec- strong focal point and identity to the north, with a thriv- cably non-partisan, whether they are or not. So fi rst, 11 ing economy that off ers full opportunities for housing, of the 17 seats that are protected are Liberal seats. employment, education, recreation and cultural life. It's Th e second political issue that I see in this bill is the also the host city for the Canada Winter Games. Th at's fact that it appears to be trying to avoid what happened fabulous. And it has a university. in the past, the last time we had a boundary commission So it becomes really challenging to understand what reviewing the boundaries in British Columbia. It appears the government means by remote and diversely populat- to be trying to avoid political past problems that this gov- ed. From my perspective, that becomes really challenging. ernment experienced — prolonged and painful problems My husband certainly…. It wouldn't meet his criteria that ended up causing them to be politically hurt, as hap- for a retirement city or a retirement town or a retirement pened the last time. community. He's looking for opportunities where you [1145] have huge spaces between people, where there is real re- It appears, whether it's true or not, that this is yet an- moteness. I shudder when I think about it because that's other attempt to interfere politically in order to avoid 3524 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2014

political problems. Th is is not work of the Boundaries Commission. Th is For that reason, I think you have to take a skeptical is work that the government…. Th is is a government look at the bill, and you have to say: "Look, because we document, so it is political in nature even though it talks are meddling so fundamentally with something that is about the context for electoral boundary revision in fundamentally important to our democracy, you have to Canada, the legislator role and the ombudsperson role be absolutely clear. It has to have no taint whatsoever of and so on and the fact that "every citizen of Canada has political interference." On both of those fronts, there is the right to vote" — this is quoting from the Canadian an appearance, at least, that there could be political mo- Charter of Rights and Freedoms — "in an election of tivation for this bill. members of the House of Commons or of a legislative I think the other fundamental problem that I have with assembly and to be qualifi ed for membership therein." this bill is the dangerous precedent that it sets of interfer- It talks all the talk, but essentially, at the end of the day, ing with the work of the Boundaries Commission. You what this does is…. It was essentially like a trial balloon. know, there has been talk in the past of past Boundaries [1150] Commission work being interfered with, and that's an- other huge danger in our democracy — if there is some Interjection. suggestion that the work of the Boundaries Commission is not independent. K. Corrigan: Well, thank you. Th e hon. member for Essentially, what this bill does is it prescribes the cir- Port Coquitlam is asking me to repeat a quote from the cumstances under which the Boundaries Commission Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The hon. works. In essence, what it is doing is prescribing what member knows that I am always happy to quote from the the results are instead of prescribing principles, and de- Charter of Rights and Freedoms. My legal background fensible principles, that the Boundaries Commission absolutely just gravitates that way. But you can read it in must work on. Hansard, hon. Member. One of the fundamental principles of a democracy is I'm not supposed to indicate who's here and who isn't. the idea of one person, one vote. It used to be one man, But anyways, apparently the member for Port Coquitlam one vote, but we've updated it to one person, one vote. is here. Th at idea is the principle that all citizens, regardless of Looking at the very beginning of this white paper, where they reside in a state, are entitled to equal legisla- when I was looking at it a few days ago, it talks about the tive representation. roles. I appreciate that it talks about the roles of MLAs. There have been numerous judicial precedents in Th e roles of the MLAs include the legislator role. When Canada, going back 100 years or so, that say that this is you're changing boundaries, you're going to aff ect the a fundamental tenet of our democracy: one person, one legislator role because it is the majority of MLAs elected vote. Th ose cases over the years have refi ned exactly what to the House who determine which party governs and that means. which laws are enacted. Th ere can be a variation, up to about 25 percent. Th ere As the paper acknowledges, it is important that each can be a variation if the circumstances warrant, and in ex- MLA represent roughly similar numbers of eligible voters treme circumstances it's acknowledged that there can be so that a majority of MLAs actually represent a majority a higher variation. But what we have with this bill is we of the population. Th e population of an electoral district have, essentially, a pronouncement by this government is therefore a key part of the principle of representation that 17 of the 85 existing constituencies in this province by population. Talking about that role…. would qualify as extreme circumstances, and I do not be- Th en the other role that they talk about is the ombuds- lieve that that is what was meant in the Supreme Court person role, and we all know about that. We all know that of Canada decisions — that you could end up with 17 of what we do in our offi ces is very important — that we 85 seats being prescribed as essentially being in extreme have casework come into our offi ce and that we need to circumstances in our province. So I am very concerned respond to that. It's another part of this bill. It's perhaps a about that. bit of a balancing of those two roles — the legislator role Recently I was reading the White Paper on Electoral and the ombudsperson role. Th at's legitimate, because I Boundaries Commission Act, which was put out by the know some of the members from remote rural districts government. I mean, let's not pretend that this is any- have said it's a challenge to represent those areas. I under- thing but a political document. Th e Electoral Boundary stand that this is a balancing. Reform: White Paper on Amending the B.C. Electoral What that description of the two roles of an MLA miss- Boundaries Commission Act is put out by the Ministry es is the crucial aspect of whether the confi guration that of Justice — the justice services branch of the civil policy we arrive at favours one party or another. When they talk and legislation offi ce. Th is is a document that is posited about the ombudsperson role and representing individ- for discussion, but it's a government document. It is a uals and the problems that they have, the problems that political document. individuals have in their constituencies, part of the an- Tuesday, May 6, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3525

swer to the problems that individuals have is having the proportional representation, in some of the urban seats. right to vote and saying: "Th is party is not properly repre- I have concerns about that aspect of the bill, but my senting me. I have the right to determine that the other fundamental problem is the lack of respect for the con- party, whoever that may be, is either representing me stitution and a concern that there could be a Charter well or not. I'm having a problem, and I want to change challenge. Th e fundamental problem is the dangerous the government." precedent of interfering with the work of Boundaries. Yes, we're legislators. Yes, we're ombudspeople. But just With that, Madame Speaker, noting the hour, I would as fundamentally, we are representatives of the confi gura- like to reserve my place and adjourn debate. tion of votes and seats that the people of British Columbia determine is what they want in terms of the makeup of K. Corrigan moved adjournment of debate. the House. I think that was missing from the white paper. Another part of this that concerns me is the fact that Motion approved. when we have these changes, we will have a disparity. I understand the reason for representation and wanting Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported representation for our rural communities and the dif- progress, was granted leave to sit again. fi culties that people have. I hear some of the members that come here from places like Nelson-Creston and from Hon. T. Stone moved adjournment of the House. the north and so on. I mean, it essentially takes not only travel within the constituency, but travel from the con- Motion approved. stituency to come to this place to vote on important bills like this is very challenging. I understand the importance Madame Speaker: Th is House, at its rising, stands ad- and the challenges of rural representation. journed until 1:30 this aft ernoon. Another one of the principles that was included in the discussion, has been included by the Supreme Court of Th e House adjourned at 11:57 a.m. Canada, has been included in academic papers and so on, is another type of representation, which is minority representation. PROCEEDINGS IN THE If you take a look at the various ridings that will be DOUGLAS FIR ROOM less represented if this bill passes — less represented — some of those ridings have some of the highest minority Committee of Supply representation in this province. For example, my riding — well over 40 percent of the constituents are of Chinese ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF TECHNOLOGY, heritage. Many of them speak Chinese as a fi rst language. INNOVATION AND CITIZENS' SERVICES It is challenging for me, but it is crucially important for me to communicate and represent those individuals. Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section A); M. Th ose individuals are minorities in this province, and Dalton in the chair. they deserve to be well represented. [1155] Th e committee met at 11:03 a.m. Unfortunately, one of the things that is going to hap- pen with this bill is that we are going to interfere with the On Vote 41: ministry operations, $64,213,000. representation of minorities in this province. Now, I know that we have talked about…. One of the Th e Chair: Minister, do you have any opening remarks, provisions of the bill is to limit the number of seats to 85. introductions? We understand that perhaps there is not a huge appetite in this province to increase the number of seats, given Hon. A. Wilkinson: I am quite content to move ahead the fact that taxpayers are feeling hard hit, particularly with the estimates. Mr. Heyman is well informed and lower-income people, families. Middle-class families are has thoughtful questions. I suggest we move ahead on feeling hard hit. the areas that have been outlined, which include: infor- mation access, freedom of information, privacy, rela- [Madame Speaker in the chair.] tionships with the Offi ce of the Information and Privacy Commissioner, sale of assets, the technology sector and We understand that that is a challenge, but if we keep government communications. it at 85, it necessarily, then, sets up…. If you are going to I leave myself in Mr. Heyman's capable hands. protect 17 seats, what that means is that in terms of rep- [1105] resentation there are going to be losers. My concern is that in areas like mine we will have lower representation, G. Heyman: It's good to be back. We have questions 3526 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2014

in a number of areas. Estimates is a good opportunity to of FOI analysts actually working is below complement, ask this and to explore some areas related to fi nance and even when it gets up to complement, why is there a defi - related to the operations of the ministry and the positions cit from the number of staff that was projected within the the ministry might take in response to both public con- ministry that would be needed to support the increase cerns and concerns expressed by independent offi cers of in the number of requests on a continuing, timely basis? the Legislature. I want to start with some questions about freedom- Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e PowerPoint the member re- of-information requests. Can the minister confi rm the fers to…. I'm not sure what the date is, but it seems to be number of full-time-equivalents the information access dated in that the member refers to the goal of having 148 operations offi ce currently has approval for? staff in information access. We now have 149 budgeted positions and expect to have all of them fi lled, as I say, Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e freedom-of-information pro- once training and recruitment are complete in a couple cessing branch has 105 staff . Th ose numbers are included of weeks. Th e number oscillates around that number as in the total count for the information access operations people move on to other lines of work. Recruitment is group of 149 full-time-equivalents. ongoing. We sometimes slightly exceed that number, and sometimes it goes below that number, but we stay rough- G. Heyman: Do I understand that correctly? Th ere are ly in that range. 149 FTEs but only 105 currently employed. G. Heyman: If I understood the minister correctly, in Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e 105 are involved in freedom- fact, once recruitment and hiring are completed in this of-information processing. Th e other 44 are involved in cycle, information access will actually be one over the information records management generally, not in free- recommendation that was made. dom of information specifi cally. My question to the minister is: with those positions fi lled, does the minister believe it's possible to achieve G. Heyman: Th at number is the number for those 100 percent compliance with the legislated timelines in people currently employed or the current budget com- the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy plement. Act? If the answer to that is yes, what has the impact been in times when there has not been a full complement? Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e current complement of the [1115] 105 budgeted positions in freedom of information is cur- rently lower due to staff turnover and so forth — rough- Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e current performance of 74 ly 100 — and recruitment is ongoing. We can provide a percent completion within statutory timelines is a slight more accurate number for the grand total — that is, the reduction, because these requests are getting (a) more 149 budgeted positions — this aft ernoon, if the member voluminous and (b) more complicated. We're in the would like that. position where…. Although we're at full staff comple- [1110] ment, we would be in a much better position in terms of timeliness if we didn't have an accumulated backlog. G. Heyman: Th ank you. I would appreciate that in- Our current challenge is trying to clear the backlog. We formation. At the same time, or perhaps now, could you have an appropriate staff complement to deal with cur- confi rm or do the math on how many vacancies there rent demand, but sadly, there's a backlog of complicated currently are in information access operations? requests that's built up.

Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e position is that recruitment G. Heyman: I'm looking at a PowerPoint from the has occurred recently. We're looking forward to approxi- ministry. It notes some processing hiccups or delays. I mately two weeks from now, when those people come on guess that's what the average citizen would consider stream, and the vacancy rate will be zero in information them to be. access operations. For the Ministry of Children and Family Development, there's a 56 percent on-time rate for requests and then G. Heyman: Th at's welcome news. In a PowerPoint that 82 average processing days overdue. Th e minister's own was obtained through a freedom-of-information request, ministry was only 25 percent on time with an average 62 one slide really stuck out for us. It said: "Information ac- processing days overdue. cess operations is approved for 115 FTEs. Currently 93 Th e general average, I think, as the minister pointed positions are staff ed." And here is an important sentence: out, is 75 percent on time, 44 average processing days "If staffi ng had kept pace with request increases since overdue. The average processing days from April 1, 2008-2009, IAO would have 148 FOI staff ." 2012, to March 31, 2013, compared to April 1, 2013, to My question to the minister is: if the current number December 1, 2013, increased signifi cantly from 25 days Tuesday, May 6, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3527

overdue to 60 days overdue. think that at diff erent times government has projected to If this is the case, two questions to the minister. What receive approximately 9,500 requests this fi scal year. IAO does the minister think is an adequate staffi ng comple- is currently at 77 percent on time. If the remainder of this ment or other measures to actually handle the volume of year's requests are closed at a rate of 90 percent on time, reasonable requests and avoid delays and meet the legis- government would end the year at 81 percent on time. A lated timelines? If, in fact, the backlog is a problem and more realistic projection is 75 percent. the complexity of the backlog is a problem, what extra The minister has given some reasons for why that measures would the minister consider undertaking to might be the case now. I've heard the minister say some reduce the backlog so that we don't continue to have de- steps are being taken to address what he termed as, I lays and long periods of overdue requests going forward think, shotgun or scattershot FOI requests. ad infi nitum? Are there any other internal processing measures that the minister is contemplating or putting in place that Hon. A. Wilkinson: I'm pleased to be able to report would deal with the inevitable fact that people searching that we're processing now roughly double the number for information will cast the net as broadly as possible so of requests that were processed in 2007-2008. A couple that they don't, in fact, get a reply that says, "Sorry, don't of factors have made life more complicated and the pro- have it," when it's down the hall or in another ministry? cessing slower. [1120] Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e division has, over the past few Th ere has been a large increase in the number of cross- years, centralized this function so that dedicated profes- ministry requests. An individual will come in asking sional civil service staff perform the work, and that leads for something about watercourses in the Cariboo, but to some degree of effi ciency. We have also been working they've sent it to all ministries. Having fought our way on the rollout of a new soft ware system that will be func- through that for some time, which resulted in a lot of "no tional in late summer to provide more effi cient process- records" responses from irrelevant ministries, we are now ing and only do the steps that need to be done, rather being proactive and talking to the requesters to try and than duplicating things or doing things manually. Th e get them to focus on what they specifi cally want, rather goal is to do this more effi ciently. than just having a blunderbuss, all-ministries request, Th e key, though, it seems, is to make sure that the staff which proves to be slow and ineffi cient and expensive. are comfortable working with the demand side, which is Th ere has also been a great increase in calendar re- largely journalists and, to a degree, the members of the quests going farther down into the civil service, which, opposition and other political interests, to make sure that of course, slows things down. Th e calendars have to be the requests can be focused and therefore processed in a reviewed to take out personal phone numbers and "pick more timely fashion. up the kids" and those kinds of things that are inevitably [1125] found in calendars. Th at has increased the workload. Understandably, some members of the media — and, Th ere was also a burst of activity through the 2013 of course, it's in the purview of other political interests, pre- and post-election cycle, which led to a substantial whether the offi cial opposition or otherwise — maintain backlog. The premise is that staff in the freedom-of- that they still want a broad request to be processed. But information processing unit take about six months to that inevitably leads to lengthy delays as ministries go train properly — to get them up to speed. Th ere is also looking for something that doesn't exist. signifi cant turnover and attrition in this fi eld, because it is demanding. G. Heyman: In the centralizing of the function of We try to staff in anticipation of demand and when we searching for material requested through FOI, are there can clear the backlog, but we are reluctant, of course, to any other measures that the ministry has put into place hire and recruit and train a large batch of people only to or the minister is contemplating that would actually in- have them underemployed, dissatisfi ed and then leaving ternally streamline the search? in a very unsatisfactory environment. Our goal is to increase the effi ciency of the division Hon. A. Wilkinson: Two steps have been taken that and clear the backlog as soon as we can so that we can are, I think, substantive. First is to implement, to the raise those percentages up into the higher numbers that maximum possible degree, a Lean management process we all seek. so that each step taken is examined to make sure that it is actually producing something of value to the end G. Heyman: I note that in some instances it's clear user, rather than internally satisfying processes such as from communication within the ministry that the aim — lunch breaks. or at least the expectation for this year and presumably Th e second thing is that we're working upstream with going forward — is not to complete 100 percent of FOI the ministries to make sure that they have a structured, requests on time, despite the legislation. For instance, I organized approach to this so that it becomes a straight- 3528 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2014

forward task for them to perform as soon as possible, employees actually has fairly high levels of engagement, rather than an onerous and uncertain task which they and we have some longtime employees who take pride will put off for an inappropriate amount of time. in the work and are pleased and proud to be a part of the freedom-of-information process and take it as a matter G. Heyman: People within the ministry have also no- of principle to do their work properly. Others develop ticed that freedom-of-information classifi cations have the skills, and it turns out the degree of meticulousness not kept pace with the changing nature of FOI work. Th is and broad thinking is actually in demand in other min- results in a high rate of staff leaving information access istries, and these people are actually recruited out from operations for higher-paying positions in the public ser- the FOI role. vice, which would of course result in what the minister Th e concept of burnout, I think, is perhaps less applic- correctly identifi ed as a high rate of turnover requiring able here than the concept that people develop a knack training of new staff to fi ll vacancies — all of which I'm for this work and like it and carry on doing it, or they see sure the minister would agree is ineffi cient and results in opportunities elsewhere and say: "Well, I'm now so well delays, which is another level of ineffi ciency. trained out of FOI, I can do just about anything." My question is: does the minister know what the exact turnover rate among FOI analysts has been for the last G. Heyman: Well, fair enough. But if, in fact, the clas- one or two years? sifi cations haven't kept pace with the changing nature of the work and people are able to take the skills that they Hon. A. Wilkinson: It turns out that the turnover an- have developed through doing work of a changed nature nually in recent years has been about 15 percent. Th at and receive higher compensation elsewhere in the pub- obviously requires recruitment and training of the re- lic service, which is, of course, a value to the public ser- placement 15 percent. In doing the math, that comes vice…. Th ere's no question about that. to roughly 20 people a year being trained and recruited. Th ere are two possible avenues here: one is a classifi ca- The other point that should be made is that these tion review to ensure that the jobs are placed at the ap- people, once they decide to move on from this role, tend propriate classifi cation and grid level; or if they generally to stay within the civil service and move to other roles are, but people are being recruited elsewhere, that there in other ministries. Of course, they take with them the be a temporary retention adjustment. Although, frank- knowledge and know-how of how the system works. ly, if they're taking the skill set and able to make more Th ey're oft en relied upon in other ministries for their skill money elsewhere in government, my hunch would be and effi ciency and knowledge of freedom-of-information that it's the classifi cation of those jobs themselves rela- processing. tive to other classifi cations in government that may have Lastly, in terms of compensation for these individuals been updated that's the problem. Is the ministry actually and their job classifi cations, we work within the PSA clas- proactively looking at this? sifi cation system on these roles. [1135] [1130] Hon. A. Wilkinson: Mr. Chair, it turns out that there G. Heyman: I know that on numerous occasions have been some internal reclassifi cations as the nature within the public service there have been temporary or of the work has shift ed, and as the long-timers acquire long-term grid adjustments within the pay grid for re- more skills and experience, they have moved up in the cruitment and retention purposes. Has the ministry done grid. If one took the average classifi cation over perhaps an analysis of whether the rate of turnover is largely at- the last decade, it has moved up within the organization. tributable to pay rates, is attributable to other causes such Th e people who come in, get trained and then move as burnout or workload? Have there been exit interviews on tend to be in the lower classifi cations, and the ones done? Is there a general framework for why the turnover who are the long-timers are the ones who have moved rate is where it is? up the classifi cation grid and tend to stay for a long time. If compensation is one of the issues, is the ministry looking at trying to deal with that for recruitment and G. Heyman: I'll close this section with a couple of retention rather than simply being a farm team for other questions. I'm just trying to get a handle on where this ministries? If burnout is an issue or workload is an issue, all goes once the backlog is cleaned up — or if the back- there are two causes. One is more senior staff working log is cleaned up — and when the ministry adjusts to the with new staff who are still on the learning curve or be- changing nature of requests. ing trained, and the other one is staffi ng levels generally. I'll just simply point out that, legally, the government Can the minister comment on any of these factors with is required to aim to complete all requests on time with- respect to retention? in the legislated time limits. Does the minister intend to take the steps necessary to ensure that, in fact, the min- Hon. A. Wilkinson: It turns out that this collection of istry and its offi ces fulfi l this requirement? Tuesday, May 6, 2014 British Columbia Debates 3529

Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e working premise is to seek to the backlog, we could answer that more accurately on a get as close to 100 percent performance on the legislated monthly basis because of the monthly surges and subsid- deadline as we can. As I said earlier, perhaps to summar- ences in queries. If some people go on vacation in August, ize: this is not only a matter of being at full staff comple- the number of queries will subside dramatically and we'll ment, which we roughly are now, but also cleaning the make some headway. At the current state, as I say, the backlog, which we anticipate will take a bit of time, be- member is aware of the percentage completion on time cause there was a surge in requests. now, which we seek to improve upon. Th e two major steps we're taking to sort this out are improved internal processes, and secondly, to work with G. Heyman: Th ere is one other thing. Th e minister requesters to see if they're prepared to focus their re- pointed to the complexity of some of the requests that quests so that it can be hopefully processed in a more are coming in. In commentary and in investigation of timely fashion. the actions of the ministry in proactively releasing in- formation under section 25 with respect to a number of G. Heyman: Two more questions. Are there any other instances but, in particular, events and fl ooding resulting steps the minister can envision the ministry taking to en- from the Testalinden dam breaking, it was noted that sure that the legislated timelines are met? And how far many people in many ministries were simply unaware into the future does the minister think it will be before of their legislated requirements under section 25, which the ministry is in a position to meet timelines on an on- were to proactively release information with respect to going basis? public health, public safety and environment in the case [1140] of temporal urgency. My question is twofold. First of all, the other thing Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e review of the act comes up the commissioner recommended was that there be clar- in 2016, and we fully anticipate there will be some novel ity given to subclause (b), which says that information ideas coming into that review. We are in an information that is "clearly in the public interest" should be released age, and it may well be that there are opportunities to cre- — period. But the practice has only been to do it in cases ate more automated processes here. We just don't know of urgency of a temporal nature. at this point. But we're certainly anticipating that 2016 First of all, can the minister tell me what is being review with those things in mind. done throughout all ministries in government to en- Secondly, to the member's question about when we sure that they comply with the practices at a minimum expect to reach a point where we're processing requests with respect to temporal urgency and whether the on a timely basis…. If we were taking the requests from minister is considering making the amendments to the this calendar year, we would be rapidly approaching 100 act recommended by the freedom-of-information and percent on-time performance. It's this backlog from the protection-of-privacy commissioner to proactively re- previous year that's holding us back, and we're anticipat- lease information that is clearly in the public interest, ing getting to that as soon as we can. which would, in turn, cut down on the number of pro- It's diffi cult to answer the question because, of course, cessing requests that come in because more informa- we don't control the new incoming requests. Th e pattern tion would be available? has been erratic in terms of the incoming work. Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e member is correct about sec- G. Heyman: I don't want to spend too much longer on tion 25 and it requiring disclosure when public safety and this. Can the minister tell me if the backlog is being ad- public health are under threat. dressed at a rate where it will eventually disappear and [1145] the staff will be processing requests as they come in rather Of course, the problem is with the vast pool of infor- than having backlog creating future backlog? mation available across the entire civil service. Identifying that information proactively is not something that any- Hon. A. Wilkinson: I just have been handed a little one in this room can do, because we don't know what in- note that says that — this is in that confounding govern- formation they have about which dam or which health ment accounting — we currently have 103.63 FTEs. I will facility in which location…. leave that to people wiser than me to answer any written Our contribution to that is to continue the ongoing query about how we're at 0.63. I think that's annualized regular training about the application of the act in each of by weeks. Th at's as of April 19, against an allocation of the ministries of government and to increase the empha- 105, and, as I say, we are in the process of training, re- sis and guidance on section 25 — that is, the requirement cruiting to be a full complement, anticipating attrition in for public disclosure where an imminent threat occurs. the foreseeable future. Th at has been enhanced in the training program. We are For my colleague the member of the opposition's ques- still working on fi nding resolution to the concerns raised tion in terms of a projected time to reach completion of by the commissioner, but we're very much aware of them. 3530 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, May 6, 2014

G. Heyman: Just for clarity, does that mean that the Something else has popped up that is frankly quite dis- minister is actually considering the recommendation to turbing. One of the provisions of the act allows for the make amendments to section 25? deletion of communication, e-mail or otherwise, that's deemed to be of a transitory nature. That's generally Hon. A. Wilkinson: We always take the commission- thought to relate to booking appointments, logistics of er's advice with great interest and treat it with gravity. I meetings, scheduling — things that really don't have to actually have a list of commissioner's reports, which the do with the actual policy discussions or information in member opposite may also have, at hand at this very mo- which the public may have a real interest. ment, so that we can be aware of the numerous recom- Apparently, a lot of information is being deemed to be mendations made. And we pursue each and every one transitory and deleted which I assume — and I assume of them. I'm correct; I will hurry up — is inappropriate. Th at's why Some of them take time to consider or to determine the "no records" response. whether they're workable to implement. Others are im- [1150] plemented promptly. And others — we go back to the What is the government's policy when it comes to em- commissioner and say: "We're going to have to reformu- ploying the term "transitory"? Is there an overall policy late this. We can't complete this particular recommenda- surrounding when information should be designated tion." Th at's a cumulative phenomenon over the many transitory and deleted and when it should not? reports that the commissioner has produced. Hon. A. Wilkinson: Just to refl ect on some data, in G. Heyman: I'm unclear from the minister's answer. the previous fi scal year 25 percent of requests showed Perhaps he can clarify whether that means that he's aware no records, and that's down to 19 percent in the im- of the recommendation but he and ministry staff haven't mediately past fi scal, '13-14. When multiple "no records" gotten to it yet; he's aware of it and the ministry plans to responses are accounted for in cross-ministry requests, tell the commissioner that it's unimplementable; or that which is what the commissioner has recommended, he's aware of it, there's been some discussion, and it's we've seen only a 3 percent increase in "no records" re- under consideration. plies since 2009. Th e context for this is that in 2009, moving to the cen- Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e latter. tralized system, we enabled the option for the requester to ask for all ministries. Of course, the casual or very curi- G. Heyman: I'm going to move on to a rather contro- ous requester would simply check all ministries. For most versial issue, which is connected to the issue of "no re- topics, of course, there's nothing in 70 or 90 percent of cords" responses. I understand the minister claims that part of the reason for the rise in "no records" responses is the ministries, so that has bogged the system down some- requests which are generated and addressed to any num- what. Nonetheless, as I say, it is improving through pro- ber of ministries, some of whom may have no records be- active work with the requesters and also through more cause they had nothing to do with it. effi cient systems internally. Nonetheless, the rate of increase over a four- or fi ve- In terms of the transitory records situation, I'm go- year period is fairly substantial — reaching levels of, I ing to read a policy statement into the record here, and think, at one point, 45 percent in the Premier's offi ce my staff will provide the member with a written version and a general level of, if memory serves me correctly, 27 of this so that it's all in one place for the member to use. percent overall. Th at included requests, for instance, to "Transitory records are records of temporary usefulness the Premier's offi ce of any information regarding brief- that are not an integral part of an administrative or oper- ings she'd received on looming B.C. Hydro rate increases, ational record series, that are not regularly fi led with briefi ng notes for a meeting with the Premier of Alberta standard records or fi ling systems, and that are only re- for a discussion of energy policy. Surely there has to be quired for a limited period of time for the completion of some documentation in the Premier's offi ce on matters a routine action or the preparation of an ongoing record." such as this. Quite a lot more can be said about this, but it may be If the minister recalls — and I'm sure he does — when best if I simply ask staff to send that in writing to the we met here in July he said, in response to the concerns member. expressed by the Information Commissioner, that many I move that the committee rise, report progress and people within government, including ministers, were ask leave to sit again. relying on private e-mail to skirt freedom-of-information law. I think I have the quote correct. "If it's written on the Motion approved. bottom of your shoe, you have to disclose it." He was go- ing to make that clear to people. Th e committee rose at 11:52 a.m. Hansard Reporting Services

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