Vol. 768 Tuesday No. 108 9 February 2016

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Retirement of a Member: Lord Dixon ...... 2111 Questions Oil and Gas: UK Continental Shelf...... 2111 Housing Estates ...... 2114 Walking and Cycling...... 2116 Daesh: Genocide...... 2119 Transport for London Bill [HL] Motion to Consider ...... 2121 Welfare Reform and Work Bill Third Reading...... 2121 Housing and Planning Bill Committee (1st Day) ...... 2132 Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Funding Question for Short Debate...... 2192 Housing and Planning Bill Committee (1st Day) (Continued)...... 2207

Grand Committee Immigration Bill Committee (5th Day)...... GC 125

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The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2016, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 2111 Retirement of a Member: Lord Dixon[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Oil and Gas: UK Continental Shelf 2112

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): My Lords, is it House of Lords not quite obvious by now that Scotland and the oil industry have benefited enormously from having the Tuesday, 9 February 2016. strength of the United Kingdom around them? Had the Scottish people voted for independence, they would 2.30 pm not have been able to benefit from the wider resources of the United Kingdom and the Prime Minister’s Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Chester. welcome involvement in supporting the oil industry in the north-east of Scotland.

Retirement of a Member: Lord Dixon Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, my noble Announcement friend is absolutely right about the strength of the United Kingdom and the resilience that it has afforded 2.35 pm to the oil industry over a period of time. Long may that resilience continue. The Lord Speaker (Baroness D’Souza): My Lords, I should like to notify the House of the retirement, Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab): My Lords, Scotland with effect from today, of the noble Lord, Lord Dixon, has its very own carbon crisis. The Minister mentioned pursuant to Section 1 of the House of Lords Reform a supplementary tax. That was imposed in the 2011 Act 2014. On behalf of the House, I should like to Budget and increased from 20% to 32% on the basis thank the noble Lord for his much-valued service to that oil prices had doubled. They have now crashed the House. from $114 a barrel—happy days for the SNP—to less than $30 a barrel. There must be a compelling case for scrapping that supplementary tax in its entirety and Oil and Gas: UK Continental Shelf engaging once again with Sir Ian Wood and others to Question ensure that, in a bleak global environment, there is at least some viable future for the North Sea oil industry. 2.36 pm Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, the noble Asked by Lord Bruce of Bennachie Lord is right that the fall in oil prices is an international To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action problem. He will be aware that there was fiscal reform they intend to take to assist the viability of oil and in the 2015 Budget, with a £1.3 billion injection of extra gas exploration and development on the United help over five years through tax cuts. As I have said, Kingdom continental shelf in the light of the reduced the Chancellor will look at representations that have price of oil. been made to him.

Lord St John of Bletso (CB): My Lords, are the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Government considering a direct subsidy of development of Energy and Climate Change and Wales Office (Lord capex for exploration and production companies on Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con): My Lords, during his the UK continental shelf, such as is given to similar visit to Aberdeen on 28 January, my right honourable companies in Norway? friend the Prime Minister set out an action plan to help build a bridge to the future for the industry. This includes a £20 million package of new investment in Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, the package exploration, innovation and skills, and a new oil and that the Prime Minister announced on 28 January gas ambassador. includes £20 million of new investment in seismic exploration. This will be of assistance, together with the City Deal package for Aberdeen which includes a Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD): My Lords, the oil new innovation energy centre. I hope that the noble and gas industry is probably facing its worst ever crisis Lord will welcome it. since it was established more than 60 years ago. Will the Government now scrap the supplementary charge Lord Hayward (Con): Will my noble friend please and will they clarify the liabilities on decommissioning bear in mind that although this is a major problem for which might help that to proceed? This industry has the north-east of Scotland and the Grampian area in provided tens of billions of pounds worth of investment particular, the oil and gas industry and exploration on and hundreds of thousands of jobs for many decades. the continental shelf have generated much wealth for Will the Government ensure that their action plan will the whole of this country, and therefore tackling the enable it to do so for many decades into the future? particular issues of the continental shelf will benefit large parts of the nation’s economy? Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, it is true that representations have been made on the fiscal front Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, my noble and the Chancellor will be considering those. We must friend is absolutely right about the benefits to the whole recognise that it is not all doom and gloom. Bob of the United Kingdom from oil and gas exploration. Dudley, the chief executive of BP, said last month that He will be aware that two massive new fields to the the North Sea remained viable economically and would west of Shetland were opened today by Total in Laggan be for decades to come. and Tormore, which is very good news. 2113 Oil and Gas: UK Continental Shelf[LORDS] Housing Estates 2114

Lord Grantchester (Lab): My Lords, when Sir Ian Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab): My Lords, Wood published his recommendations two years ago, I declare an interest as a Lancashire resident. Will the oil was indeed trading at a much higher price than it is Minister care to take away and reflect on the fact that today, with the price now dipping to below $30 a there is great concern and anger at government suggestions barrel. Will the Minister inform the House what effect that local people should be taken out of the decision- the Government think this has had on the strength of making process for future fracking? Will he care to the recommendation of the Wood review report? comment on the fact that all the fracking decisions this Government have taken tend towards the north? Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, the noble Does he envisage any fracking taking place for oil or Lord will be aware that the Government have given gas in the south of England, where Conservative support high priority to ensuring that the recommendations of is concentrated? the Wood report are taken through into law. That is now happening through the Energy Bill, as the noble Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, the noble Lord is aware, so I think that indicates our clear Baroness will be aware that decisions on fracking are commitment. He is absolutely right; this is a global taken by planning authorities; they are not a matter problem but we are doing what we can domestically to for the Government. She will be aware that there are ensure that the UK industry has all the support necessary. potential fracking areas throughout the country. That, of course, will be something that planning authorities will take forward. Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con): My Lords, as I well recall from my time as Energy Secretary, the North Sea oil and gas has had a glorious past. However, is it Housing Estates not clear that its future can be only a shadow of what Question it has been, and that the future of our indigenous oil and gas industry must lie in the exploitation of our 2.44 pm shale resources, which are quite substantial? Will my noble friend undertake to go ahead with that as fast as Asked by Baroness Janke he possibly can? To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will provide further information on their proposals Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, I am very for renewal or replacement of failed housing estates, much aware that my noble friend has a very distinguished following the announcement by the Prime Minister record as a former Energy Secretary. However, I do of £140 million funding; and whether any additional not think it is true to say that the oil industry is funding will be made available. entering a period where its significance is diminished. It is perhaps not what it was, but it is still of enormous The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department importance. The two oil fields to which I referred will for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams be able, when at maximum production, to supply of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, estate regeneration provides energy to 2 million homes. However, he is absolutely a big opportunity to turn around run-down, low-density right about the importance of shale and the Government public sector estates to produce many more new homes are determined to go ahead with exploration for it. and to tackle blight. The funding announced is only part of the package we are working on. An advisory Lord Hughes of Woodside (Lab): My Lords, will the panel, co-chaired by my noble friend Lord Heseltine Minister comment on the reports in today’s press that and my honourable friend Brandon Lewis, will explore the Chancellor is expected to raise taxes on the oil how we can help the projects to go forward. The panel industry at a time when consumers are not really will meet for the first time today. seeing a reduction in price at the petrol pumps? Will he disabuse us of that idea? Baroness Janke (LD): I thank the Minister for her response. I am sure she is aware that, in many parts of Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, matters for the country, the number of households in severe housing the Budget are, of course, matters for the Chancellor. need is rapidly rising. Indeed, it is 3,000 in my own The noble Lord will know that I cannot comment on city, with the numbers of people sleeping rough having that. gone up by 41%. Will the noble Baroness tell me when precise, funded proposals will be published, and can she assure us that decent, affordable homes will be Lord Spicer (Con): Further to the question of my provided for those families in the most severe need? noble friend Lord Lawson, what is the projected life of the Total gas fields in Shetland? Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Baroness underlines the reason why we are doing this estate Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth: My Lords, the noble regeneration. The Government have an ambition to Lord is right to raise the importance of the Laggan introduce more than 1 million new homes into this and Tormore fields. They will be there for a substantial country by 2021. The funding that was announced was period. I am not sure about the precise period but, as I purely seed funding to attract other forms of funding say, it is a massive find. The greatest part of the energy both in the public and the private sector. In terms of fields yet unexplored remain to the west of the Shetland the mix of tenure, that will certainly be in the panel’s Islands and are of massive importance to the country. minds as it makes its considerations going forward. 2115 Housing Estates[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Walking and Cycling 2116

Lord Deben (Con): My Lords, does my noble friend The Lord Bishop of Rochester: My Lords, I speak as agree that one of the ways to make homes affordable is one who lived on one of these estates for some 10 years to ensure that they are energy efficient, so that people in the 1980s and 1990s at a time when significant do not have to pay too much for their heating? Will she public money was invested in that estate. My memory, assure the House that these homes will not be built so looking back with the benefit of hindsight, is that we energy inefficiently that they have to be dealt with probably gave relatively too much attention to physical again within 20 years? Can she assure the House that investment and not enough to investment in other energy efficiency will be high on her list of priorities? kinds of infrastructure. Will the Minister assure me that, while attention is given to the physical fabric, Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I will not whether that is new or renewed, equal attention—maybe be sitting on the panel, but I shall certainly bring that even over and above the £140 million, or another point to my noble friend Lord Heseltine. Of course, £140 million—will be given to such matters as educational, my noble friend is absolutely right that, the more social and economic infrastructure? energy efficient a house is, the cheaper it is to live in and the cheaper the bills are for the tenants or the Baroness Williams of Trafford: The right reverend owners of it. I will certainly bring that point to my Prelate makes a really good point about regeneration noble friend’s attention. being about not just the physical structures that are in place but some of the social structures that are in place Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): My Lords— to support communities, and other amenities, as he said, such as schools, hospitals and GP surgeries, that Lord Low of Dalston (CB): My Lords— so often are not thought about when we think about regeneration. The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con): My Lords, the House is calling for a Cross-Bencher Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab): My Lords, I so we must go to the Cross Bench first. declare an interest as a councillor in Lewisham. The Government issued an Estate Regeneration Programme Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, does the Minister prospectus in 2014 that promised a £150 million fund accept that, when making large-scale policy changes from 2015-16 onwards, with all the funds being drawn on social housing or in implementing estate regeneration down by March 2019. The PM recently announced a programmes, tenants desperately need access to £140 million fund for estate regeneration. Will the information, advice and advocacy about their rights Minister confirm that these are not the same funds and options, on the implications for them and their being announced twice? families? Will she ensure that strategies for supporting housing and social welfare advice, commonly provided Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Lord is by such organisations as Shelter, citizens advice bureaux absolutely right. These are not the same funds being and law centres, are factored into the funding and announced twice. The fund that he is referring to was effective structures for delivery? for regeneration projects that had run into difficulty and needed substantial support from government. Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Lord makes a very important point on the need for those tenants Walking and Cycling not to feel that this has been imposed on them or that Question things have been done to them, but that they are very much part of the process that is taking place. I know 2.51 pm that that is foremost in the mind of my noble friend Asked by Baroness Barker Lord Heseltine. It will be a collaborative process with tenants to do the best for them. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to invest in promotion of walking and Lord Harris of Haringey: The Minister’s right cycling. honourable friend the Prime Minister, when he announced this initiative, talked about bulldozing 100 sink estates. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Can the noble Baroness tell us how many families will for Transport and Home Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) be living in those sink estates and how far the £140 million (Con): My Lords, the Government have made clear will go towards providing them with adequate their intention to make this country a cycling nation accommodation? Perhaps she can tell us whether she and are committed to producing a cycling and walking agrees with the Prime Minister’s terminology in describing investment strategy setting out our objectives, activities those homes as being in sink estates. and funding available for cycling and walking in England in the long term. The strategy will be published in the Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, “sink summer and will include details of how the £300 million estate” is terminology that conjures up a picture of an committed in the recent spending review will be invested estate that has become run-down, in which people feel to support both cycling and walking. less safe to live or, indeed, where the standard of accommodation is not what it should be. The £140 million Baroness Barker (LD): My Lords, from April 2016 of funding is seed funding for other types of funding the Government have reduced the revenue funding for to come in both from the public and the private sector. local authority cycling and walking safety training While that regeneration is being done, I do not expect from £78 million a year to £20 million a year. That will that the tenants will be living in those houses. inevitably lead to a reduction in the number of trainers 2117 Walking and Cycling[LORDS] Walking and Cycling 2118

[BARONESS BARKER] Baroness Randerson (LD): My Lords, the Minister available for schoolchildren and adults. Given that the referred to safety training for children, but they also Department of Health is having to put together a need safe walking and cycling routes to schools, because strategy to combat the epidemic of obesity in adolescents, that is a key way of encouraging them not just to walk does the Minister not believe that this is a false economy? or to cycle but to scoot to school. Do the Government intend to introduce safe routes for walking and cycling Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: Over the past five years to all schools, rather than having them just as a the spending on cycling per person in England has desirable optional extra? actually gone from £2 per person to £6 per person. If we look at the priority cities, £10 is being spent on Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: We already see very each individual. The noble Baroness talked about good examples of our local authorities and schools safety.The Government are investing a further £50 million adopting excellent schemes. As a father of three children, in the excellent Bikeability scheme, which ensures that I can assure noble Lords that local schools are very our next generation of cyclists are avid cyclists but diligent in supporting both walking and cycling; that also learn the importance of safety in cycling. practice is widespread across the country. Viscount Hailsham (Con): May I make a minority Baroness Heyhoe Flint (Con): My Lords, in the point? Counties such as Lincolnshire have many disused recently published new strategy for sport, the Minister railways, which provide a real opportunity for creating for Sport said that the DCMS is not the only department tracks to be shared by walkers, cyclists and riders on that should be concerned about supporting the health horseback. There is, however, a problem with the tarmac of the nation; 10 other government departments were that is being put down: it is splendid for bicycles, okay mentioned in that strategy but, interestingly, not the for walkers but very, very bad for riders on horseback. Department for Transport. I wonder if my noble Will the Minister, therefore, encourage the use of a friend the Minister could—not get on his bike but get material other than tarmac for these shared tracks? involved and speak to all those various departments to see if there can be joined-up government to help such Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: As a resident of Wimbledon, an important facet of our nation’s health. I see many examples of shared facilities, and they are a good thing. I assure the House that I am very familiar Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My noble friend makes with the shared use of tracks for bicycles, walking and, a very important point and I shall certainly follow that indeed, horses. However, my noble friend makes an up. But I assure her that health is one of the key important point and I will take it back for consideration. priorities for the DfT. Lord Rosser (Lab): The Government have said that Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab): My Lords, does they will reduce the number of pedestrian and cyclist the Minister appreciate that the Forestry Commission fatalities each year. What is the Government’s minimum provides not only many trees for this country and target figure for the reduction of pedestrian and cyclist much timber but thousands upon thousands of miles fatalities each year, and how much are they planning of forests for the citizens of this country to walk and to spend each year on cycling safety as opposed to cycle in, and that there has been a repositioning of the general road safety? forests much more into the urban areas? For example, when I was chairman, we planted more than 4 million Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: Any responsible trees in south Lancashire alone. Will the Minister give government will have the aim of ultimately reducing us an assurance that the Forestry Commission will be the deaths of cyclists to zero. Any cyclist’s death is one considered for some money out of the £300 million too many. The number of deaths currently stands pot that is expected in the summer? at 113; the number of serious injuries, however, is far higher. The noble Lord makes an important point Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I cannot give a specific about the education of cyclists, and therefore—as I commitment on how that £300 million will be allocated; have already said—the Government support schemes that has yet to be decided. If, however, the Forestry such as Bikeability very strongly. Commission would like to make to make a representation I would be delighted to meet with it to discuss its plans Lord Dobbs (Con): Does the Minister remember further. that a year ago I was in training for Walk4Jack, in support of my desperately injured neighbour Jack, who had tragically broken his neck in a rugby accident? Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB): My Lords, now that I hope that he remembers it, because he gave me a nice a good deal of Victoria Embankment has been given cheque for it. Indeed, almost 200 Members of this up for a cycling track, can anything be done to oblige House supported Walk4Jack. Is it an appropriate moment cyclists to use that rather than take up the diminished for me to inform the House that, partly because of the space on the roads? support available here, Jack is now putting the threads of his life back together: still tragically injured but Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: Most cyclists also recognise going back to work? Does the Minister agree that this the importance of safety, and the purpose of cycle is a wonderful example of the benefits of walking—which lanes is exactly that: to provide a safe and secure include my loss of a stone and a half—and also of the cycling environment. I am sure that any cyclist will depths of generosity of this House, for which I am take up the new facilities with great enthusiasm. grateful from the bottom of my heart? 2119 Walking and Cycling[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Daesh: Genocide 2120

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, when my push from London or in the United Nations. Does my noble friend started speaking I thought that he might noble friend accept that we are dealing here with a be reminding me—I was racking my brains as to movement of undiluted evil? As the noble Lord, Lord whether I had paid the cheque. I am glad for the Alton, has reminded us, there have been beheadings, accuracy of Hansard, which proves that to be the case. crucifixions, burnings alive, raping and the killing off I join him—as I am sure all Members will—in welcoming of the entire Yazidi community. Its sister franchise in the rapid recovery of his friend. Sometimes this House west Africa is even reported to be burning children comes under great scrutiny, and at times criticism, but alive. If this does not take us to the definition of it is an excellent example of the best of British, and I genocide in its present form, and I realise that we have too want to put on record the immense generosity of to be careful with the words, then surely there must be this House in supporting such schemes. something wrong with the convention and the international bureaucracy that decrees these things. Daesh: Genocide Can more urgency be put into a matter where it is Question plain fact that we are dealing with one of the most evil movements of the world, which should be destroyed? 2.59 pm Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, once again my noble friend describes the dreadful activities taking To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they place. Perhaps I could add a reference to a letter that intend to respond to the resolutions of the European was written to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, by the Parliament and the Parliamentary Assembly of the Prime Minister. I offer my apologies for how late it Council of Europe condemning the actions of Daesh/ was in getting him a reply. My right honourable friend ISIS in the Middle East as genocide. the Prime Minister repeated that it is a long-standing government policy that any judgment as to whether or The Earl of Courtown (Con): My Lords, the European not genocide has occurred is a matter to be judged by Parliament and the Parliamentary Assembly of the the international judicial system. We will nevertheless, Council of Europe are right to condemn Daesh abuses of course, continue to fight to bring an end to Daesh’s in the Middle East and its treatment of minorities. It is campaign of terror. a long-standing government policy that any judgments on whether genocide has occurred are a matter for the Lord Gordon of Strathblane (Lab): My Lords, I international judicial system, rather than Governments share the general confusion as to the Government’s or other non-judicial bodies. However, let me reassure position on this. Do they think that genocide is an noble Lords of the Government’s commitment to inappropriate word to ascribe to the activities of Daesh defeating Daesh and preventing further abuses. in the Middle East, or do they think that, although Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, what significant and accurate, it is better to keep quiet is the point of Britain being a signatory to the 1948 about it in the interests of some greater good, which I genocide convention if, when compelling evidence emerges must confess for the moment eludes me? of mass graves, systematic executions, abduction, rape, enslavement and the forced conversion of minorities The Earl of Courtown: On the contrary, my Lords, such as Yazidis and Christians—evidence sufficient to we are not keeping quiet about this issue at all. Only convince the European Parliament and the Council of last week, we had 33 Heads of State and 60 different Europe—the United Kingdom declines to name this organisations across the road in the QEII Centre, horrific cruelty for the genocide that it is? Do we intend where we had the Syria conference. At that conference, to ignore these resolutions, or will we take them to the more than $11 billion was committed to spending in Security Council and seek a referral to the International Syria. This is not sitting back and doing nothing. Criminal Court or a regional tribunal, so that those responsible for these heinous crimes will one day be Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB): My Lords, when a brought to justice? few months ago I asked for government support for an international inquiry into supposed genocide against the The Earl of Courtown: The noble Lord, Lord Alton, Sikh community in India, I was told, in a very short reply, describes these crimes quite rightly as heinous. He also that it was solely a matter for the Indian Government. suggested that we take this matter to the UN Security That was not a very Christian sentiment. Would the Council, but it would be for the Security Council as a Minister agree with the sentiments of the Sikh guru whole to agree. The UN Security Council has already who gave his life defending the right of followers of taken a number of steps against Daesh, for example another religion to worship in the manner of their choice? the binding resolutions against it which seek to reduce Human rights abuses against anyone are the responsibility its ability to finance its activities and cut the flow of of us all, and the Government should take every foreign fighters. However, whether or not this is ever measure to bring those guilty of them to justice. designated as genocide does not stop this country’s determination to deliver aid to those people in that situation. The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, the noble Lord refers to a Question that my noble friend Lady Anelay Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, some of answered. We will of course take careful note of what us are really puzzled as to the slowness of the labelling the noble Lord said, including how important it is that as genocide of Daesh activities, whether by a stronger people have the freedom to worship in their own faith. 2121 Transport for London Bill [HL][LORDS] Welfare Reform and Work Bill 2122

Transport for London Bill [HL] their family, who are not only dealing with their own Motion to Consider grief over the loss of a family member or friend, but also helping a bereaved and possibly distressed child come to terms with their loss while settling them into a 3.06 pm new family home. Moved by The Chairman of Committees By tabling this amendment we are leading the way That the Commons message of 17 November 2015 for the introduction of an exemption, and we will bring be now considered; and that the promoters of the forward regulations to give effect to that later this Transport for London Bill [HL], which was originally year. An exemption from the cap emphasises that the introduced in this House in Session 2010-12 on Government both recognise the difficult circumstances 24 January 2011, should have leave to proceed with these families face and strongly value the role of the Bill in the current Session according to the guardians in enabling vulnerable and bereaved children provisions of Private Business Standing Order 150B to continue living with their relatives or close family (Revival of bills). friends. Motion agreed. Amendment 3, as I explained on Report on 25 January, was tabled in response to a recommendation by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee Welfare Reform and Work Bill that regulations made under the powers introduced by Third Reading Clauses 8 and 9 should be submitted to the Social 3.07 pm Security Advisory Committee for consideration. We have decided to accept the committee’s recommendation Relevant documents: 13th, 19th and 20th Reports in part. from the Delegated Powers Committee During the debate on 25 January, the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked for a clarification of what regulations Clause 8: Benefit cap might be available to be sent to SSAC, as well as an explanation of why the Government do not think that Amendment 1 the level of the cap should be referred to SSAC. I will Moved by Lord Freud explain that now. But before I do, I should like to put on record the fact that the Government greatly value 1: Clause 8, page 9, leave out lines 28 and 29 the role that SSAC undertakes in providing impartial The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions advice on social security and related matters. This is (Lord Freud) (Con): My Lords, I will first speak to why consultation with SSAC may extend to cover Amendments 1 and 2, which seek to pave the way for regulations relating to the key features of the benefit the introduction of an exemption from the benefit cap cap policy. For example, we would discuss with SSAC for all households where a member receives carer’s any proposed changes to the grace period or exemption allowance or guardian’s allowance. We will bring forward criteria, the introduction of new disregards, or changes regulations to give effect to these exemptions later this to which level of the cap applies to the different year. The exemption will mean that households where household types. someone receives carer’s allowance or guardian’s allowance Regulations relating solely to changes in the level of will be exempt from the cap. For carer’s allowance, this the cap are not included in this amendment. Changes means that the claimant’s household will be exempt in the level of the cap require a broad assessment of from the effect of the cap regardless of whether the the most significant long-term developments and trends cared-for person is part of that household or not. that might affect our economy and are important to Providing an exemption from the cap where a member households up and down the country. Factors such as of the household receives carer’s allowance fits within inflation, benefit rates, the strength of the labour the wider government strategy to do more to support market, and any other matters that may be crucial and and invest in carers. Both carers and carers’ organisations relevant at that time, need to be considered. This is have welcomed this change, with Carers UK, one of why we have maintained throughout that it is important many organisations that work tirelessly to support the to allow the Secretary of State the ability to consider needs of carers, describing it as “fantastic news”. the context of the cap in a broad and balanced way. Following the eloquent arguments on guardian’s Maintaining this approach means that the Government allowance put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady can respond quickly in the light of any significant Hollis, on 25 January, I said during the debate on Report economic events that occur unexpectedly but will have on 27 January that this was an issue I wanted to long-term consequences for the national economy, explore further. Having considered the issue carefully, and can take steps to adjust the cap level accordingly. I can now confirm that we intend to exempt all households Equally importantly, let us not forget that any changes in receipt of guardian’s allowance from the benefit cap. to the level of the cap are subject to the affirmative Guardian’s allowance is paid to someone who is procedure, as agreed on Report on 25 January, when bringing up a child whose parents have died, or in government amendments to that effect were accepted. cases where one parent has died and the other parent So noble Lords will have the opportunity to ask the cannot look after the child, for example where the Government to explain any changes in the level of the other parent is untraceable, unknown or serving a cap before voting to accept those changes. I believe long prison term. As noble Lords will appreciate, this this approach substantially addresses the committee’s is a very difficult time both for the guardian and for recommendation, but also enables the Secretary of 2123 Welfare Reform and Work Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Welfare Reform and Work Bill 2124

State to respond to economic circumstances by considering Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab): My Lords, I, a broad range of factors when considering the cap too, thank the Minister. I am truly grateful that he has level. responded in such a compassionate and sympathetic Amendment 4 is a consequence of Amendment 3. way to the situation of people who are at the hardest Its purpose is to make clear that the new clause edge of kinship care, when bereaved family members inserted by Amendment 3, which brings regulations are seeking to look after bereaved children. What the under the benefit cap provisions within the remit of Government, and the Minister in particular, have done SSAC, extends to England and Wales, and Scotland. is remove an additional pressure that we would have As we draw to the end of debate on the benefit cap been putting on them of financial strain. As I understand clauses, may I take this opportunity not just to thank it, he has confirmed that not only will such families be noble Lords for their contributions on this subject, but exempt from the benefit cap, the entire income, not to focus on the fact that they have helped to ensure just the guardian’s allowance, will not come under the that the work incentive principles of the cap are fairly benefits cap—in other words, as a group, they will be balanced with that of protecting the most vulnerable. excluded. That is so important for those families to We will bring forward new exemptions for those in give the children they are caring for—as well as their receipt of carer’s allowance and guardian’s allowance, own children, perhaps—the stability and security they and, as I have said, we have increased the level of need if, out of the wreckage of their lives and the parliamentary scrutiny by extending the affirmative damage that has been done to them, they can hope to provisions for any change to the cap level in the future. build a secure future. I am very grateful to the Minister Subject to the will of Parliament, the department and thank him enormously. will now press on with implementing these changes, and will continue to work closely with local authority Baroness Manzoor (LD): I add my thanks from these partners. In spring, after Royal Assent, we will notify Benches. It is great and really welcome. To have these households that may be capped at the lower level and two allowances removed from the benefits cap is essential. advise them of the support available to move into We have had long debates and this was pointed out employment, as well as budgeting and housing support very clearly and forcefully by the noble Baroness, that they can access. This will give households several Lady Hollis. We on these Benches are really grateful. months to take up any support they might need and Of course, I remain concerned about other areas, prepare for the new cap coming in from the autumn. I such as the additional children of women who are beg to move. fleeing domestic violence. I implore the Minister to look again at that issue, and perhaps we could come 3.15 pm back to it, so that those women, or indeed partners, Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab): My Lords, when the could be exempted from the two-child tax credit limit. Minister made this welcome concession about carers on Amendments 1 and 2 on Report—it is indeed The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth: My Lords, without fantastic news—I promised no more vituperation, and wanting to detain the House, I add on behalf of this there will be none. I just have a couple of points on Bench our thanks to the Minister and offer our support which I would like clarification. and gratitude for the amendments he has brought To exempt carers in receipt of carer’s allowance forward today. The concerns that have been expressed from the benefits cap, the Government will need to around the House on many occasions for those who amend not only the Bill but the housing benefit and are most vulnerable in society have been passionate universal credit regulations. Can the Minister confirm and heartfelt. It is good and reassuring when they are that that is what the Government intend to do? I also heard, and we offer our thanks as well. want to refer to carers who have an underlying entitlement to carer’s allowance. The Minister has announced that Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD): My Lords, I add all carers in receipt of carer’s allowance will be exempted my note of congratulation to the noble Baronesses, from the benefits cap. Although that covers the majority Lady Pitkeathley, Lady Hollis and Lady Drake, on the of carers, a small number of working-age carers have splendid work that they have done not just on this Bill an underlying entitlement to carer’s allowance but do but long before and since. They deserve the credit for not receive the payments because they are already in these hard-fought and well-won amendments, as does receipt of another income-replacement benefit. That the Minister. This has not been an easy Bill at all. means that carers who have an underlying entitlement Indeed, I do not want to spoil the tone but I join the to carer’s allowance but are in receipt of benefits—such noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, in saying that this is the as jobseeker’s allowance, employment support allowance, worst Bill that I have ever come across in 35 years of maternity allowance and so on—may still be affected working in social security. This group of amendments by the cap. I should like the Minister’s assurance that is extremely welcome, but taking £12 billion out of the he intends this to apply to all carers. If he is unable to social security system for the rest of this Parliament is give me that assurance now, perhaps he could write going to continue to be a hard-fought business at all to me. levels, particularly in this House. I end by thanking the Minister again for this extremely I congratulate the Social Security Advisory Committee, welcome concession and recognition of all that carers whose work is exemplary; it supports a lot of the work do for the nation, and offer the support of the carers’ that many of us in this House do. I also congratulate organisations in getting the information out there. the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, Anything that can be done to help the Government which was absolutely correct in its 13th report when it convey that news will be done. strove to draw to the Government’s attention the fact 2125 Welfare Reform and Work Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform and Work Bill 2126

[LORD KIRKWOOD OF KIRKHOPE] and I were very keen that those adopters of difficult that the SSAC needed to have a role in these clauses. I children who join their families should also be excluded agree with that, and now we have a compromise. I do from the cap. In his reply, the Minister accepted that, not understand why the Government decided not to where sibling groups were adopted, that would be an allow the whole of the DPRRC’s recommendation; it exclusion, but where there was one child, his words were, would not amount to much, and keeping the level out I think, that they would be not unlike any other family. of the hands of the SSAC just encourages Treasury I suggest to the Minister that any adopted child is Ministers to say daft things after Budget purdah without not like any other family. Children in care who are any consultation or anticipation by anyone—there going to be adopted are not sweetness and light on the have been examples of that in the recent past. whole. They have had very difficult childhoods and It also detracts from the established annual procedure are going to need extraordinary care. I express my for updating the social security levels that Parliament disappointment. We have written to him to say that we has always had in the uprating statement. I note, for are disappointed that adopted children have not been example, that there is no sign of the uprating statement included in the list. Having said that, I am extremely coming to your Lordships’ House this year; it is being grateful for those who are. done by the other place. I look forward to the powers that be allowing at least a Moses Room debate because Baroness Sherlock (Lab): My Lords, I, too, thank it is the one occasion when you can look at the the Government for the concessions that they have national insurance accounts, the Government Actuary’s made, and I share the view expressed by the noble and recommendations and the totality of social security learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, that, on and tax credit expenditure. If this House cannot find this occasion, when a good argument was mounted, it time to discuss that annually, that is a matter of very was listened to. However, I say to the Minister that, if great regret. he liked those, I have plenty more where they came My final point is about the SSAC and the policy from, so I look forward to future useful conversations. around the benefit cap. It is one of the most regressive I also promise him no vituperation at all. Perhaps he policies that I have ever come across in any social will permit me a mild sulk when I come to the third of security system, but I understand that I am in a his amendments, but I promise to be gentle about it. minority of maybe one in the country on that question I welcome wholeheartedly the decision to exempt now. Maybe the Minister will confirm this because I all those in receipt in carer’s allowance and also to go a think that the answer to this question is yes: once, as I step further and not just to exempt guardian’s allowance, hope it will be, austerity is dealt with and as a nation as had been hinted at at a previous stage, but in fact to we get into a more favourable set of economic exempt all households containing someone claiming circumstances, I believe that the SSAC could use its guardian’s allowance. That is a generous response to discretion to undertake a report into the whole policy. the pressure from this House. In particular, I pay I do not think it is excluded by anything in these tribute to my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley for all the amendments from looking at the impact and eventual work she has done on carers, of whom she is such a outcome, after the introduction of universal credit. I tireless champion, and to my noble friend Lady Drake understand that that may be a few years down the line, for emphasising the position of carers of different but am I right that nothing in the amendments precludes kinds. the committee, on cause shown, if it really believes that it needs to make recommendations to the Minister? I have certainly raised the question of guardian’s allowance to precisely no effect whatever, but when my I pay tribute to everyone who has been involved in noble friend Lady Hollis gave a speech and made a this Bill; it has been one of the hardest fought and most report, the Minister ran the white flag up the flagpole difficult, and people have worked hard on it. We have at once, and said, “I now know how to deal in future got results today, and I welcome that as much as anyone. with matters on which I have good arguments.” I Still, I think that the Bill will cause damage in future, commend him for having listened carefully to that one. although I know that as long as the noble Lord, Lord Freud, is in his position he will be monitoring that The question on which I am still a little unhappy is carefully. If he believes in the fullness of his consideration related to government Amendment 3, raised by the noble that some of this stuff needs to be amended in future, Lord, Lord Kirkwood. As the Minister said, I pushed we rely on him to come to the House and tell us so. I on this on Report, and I would have brought another would be one of the first to support him if he did. amendment back, had I been permitted, but I am afraid the Companion does not allow me to do it. I am Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con): My Lords, I join glad the Minister has explained why the Government those who have congratulated the Minister on recognising took the view to accept only in part the recommendation the special needs of this particularly deserving group. made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform I also congratulate those who have brought these Committee. However, I think it is worth while reminding matters to his attention. I feel that this demonstrates ourselves that the committee could not have been very clearly that, when a good argument is put forward, much stronger. It actually said that it considered it it will be listened to. inappropriate, “for this Bill to confer the highly significant regulation-making Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB): My Lords, I powers in Clauses 7 and 8 without the application of the SSAC am sorry that I cannot join totally in the congratulations, scrutiny requirement”. although obviously the noble Baronesses, Lady Pitkeathley When the Government decided not to accept that and Lady Hollis, have achieved great things. However, in full, that is quite a strong statement. It is worth the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, remembering why. Although the benefit cap is a matter 2127 Welfare Reform and Work Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Welfare Reform and Work Bill 2128 for Parliament, all regulations are a matter for Parliament. been adopted. I certainly know of people who have All that happens is that they go there via an expert been in that situation. Would those people be exempt Social Security Advisory Committee which will then from the two-child limit in that circumstance? give advice to us and to Ministers about the way in The reason why this is important is that these are which the Government should proceed. The Executive not people simply making a choice to have another are entirely at liberty to ignore that advice and to press child, whether by adoption or by biology. They are ahead, but they really ought to listen. people who are specifically asked to take on that child, The reason that the level of the cap is important is as opposed to a child in general. Is the Minister willing that it is not just a matter for the economy. For to commit that those families at the very least would example, it would be perfectly possible for a Minister be exempted from the two-child policy? If he cannot to bring forward regulations saying the cap should be give me a positive answer now, I urge him not to give set at £500 a year. I am not suggesting they would, but me a negative one and perhaps to go away and discuss they could. In doing so, that would render completely it further with colleagues in other departments, who pointless the entire array of social security legislation, may be able to offer expert advice on the matter. If he specifying the entitlement people have to a range of should be minded to offer a positive answer, I urge him benefits by simply saying, “You may be entitled to all to do so now and unequivocally, in a way that is of those—however, anything over £500 we just will incapable of being revoked at a later date by anyone in not give you”. I am not suggesting the Government the Treasury or elsewhere. would do it, but that is an extraordinarily important I thank the Minister once again for listening and power, and therefore a very good reason that the for coming forward with the concessions that SSAC should have been invited to use its powers in he has. scrutinising it before the Government were able to go ahead and do it. However, all I can do at this point, as Lord Freud: I thank noble Lords very much for the I say, is sulk mildly, register my disappointment and lack of vituperation all round, which is deeply appreciated, urge the Government to go away and think again, and for their thoughtful speeches, although I think because I would not want to break the mood of that this debate has been thoughtful all the way through general congratulation, in which I share. the different stages. I have appreciated very much what I take the opportunity to ask the Minister a couple noble Lords have said. of practical questions. He mentioned that the Government Let me try to answer some of the specific questions. will be bringing regulations back later in the year to The noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, had forensic queries legislate for those parts of the concessions that are not about the underlying entitlement. As she understands, covered by the amendments today. He has explained that is quite complicated. We will go through these he would do that in relation to the amendments on the issues carefully and bring forward the regulations that benefit cap. Will the Minister also tell the House when allow us to frame the required exemptions, but I make and how the Government will legislate to deal with it absolutely clear that our intention is that the exemptions their concessions in relation to the two-child policy for should cover all the carer’s allowance underlying kinship carers and adoptive carers? I understand that entitlement group, caring for at least 35 hours a week, the regulations will be subject to the negative procedure. and equivalent groups in universal credit. I hope that I Is that correct? If so, will he commit to publishing have satisfied her on that. I confirm also that we will draft regulations before anything is laid in Parliament? amend housing benefit and universal credit regulations A lot of debate has gone on and in the light of that in line, so I think that I have answered affirmatively— debate and, indeed, in the light of the comment that indeed, I always answer the noble Baroness affirmatively, he made on Report to the right reverend Prelate the as the House has now noticed. Bishop of Portsmouth in relation to domestic violence, Let me pick up the specific questions put by the it would be helpful to the House if he were willing to noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, on the two-child policy, offer that. when she skilfully asked me to make huge commitments. On the regulations and sight of them, I hope she will 3.30 pm take this in the spirit in which I am presenting it. This I understand the disappointment of the noble Baroness, will be a rather transparent process. The regulations Lady Howarth, at not getting a concession for all are not straightforward. They are very sensitive in adopters, but the Minister said that he would exempt some areas and we will be working with stakeholders people adopting sibling groups that would take the to get them right. I am not talking about an overly household to over two children from having this policy formalised consultation process, but I am talking about limiting benefits to the first two children applied to a transparent process—much more open than you will them. May I take this opportunity to ask for some see with some of the other regulations. I hope that that clarification? Obviously that would mean that, if a satisfies her. I will allow her the indulgence of accusing family had one child and adopted two siblings, the me of not honouring the spirit of what I have said if two-child limit would not be applied, even though she thinks I have not. they then had three children. However, it is not unheard of On the sibling group question—the sequential for a family to adopt children and then, later on, for a question—clearly, our intention is that sibling groups sibling to one of the adopted children to need adoptive are kept together. As we draft the exemption we need carers. Social workers will quite often go out deliberately to work with stakeholders and colleagues to get this to ask the family whether they would take on that exactly right because it is quite complicated. We will sibling to the adopted child, because that is good take the point made by the noble Baroness absolutely both for that child and for the child who has already on board. 2129 Welfare Reform and Work Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform and Work Bill 2130

[LORD FREUD] Schedule 2: Further provision about social housing I think I ought to write to the noble Lord, Lord rents Kirkwood on the SSAC’s powers, which are rather wide. As the noble Lord knows better than anyone else, Amendment 5 there is the power to have independent reviews, but I shall put in writing the exact status of what it can and Moved by Lord Freud cannot look at, so that others are able to see it. I can 5: Schedule 2, page 38, line 18, leave out from “is” to “reduced” tell the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, that our approach in line 19 and insert “the higher of— has been that it is not fair to treat parents adopting a (a) the amount that would be found under sub-paragraph (4)(a) child more advantageously than other parents, but we if sub-paragraph (4)(a)(iii) were disregarded, and recognise the value of having sibling groups together. (b) the amount that would be found under sub-paragraph (4)(b) That is where we have concentrated our exemption. if the period in question were the whole of the relevant year in which the tenancy begins,” I hear the point about domestic violence from the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor. We have a series of Lord Freud: My Lords, the amendment to measures to support victims who flee violent households, paragraph 3(5) of Schedule 2 is to address ambiguity and I will write to her, laying out what those are. I am in the drafting and clarify that, in a case where the in absolutely no doubt that, as we get closer to defining tenancy begins after the beginning of the first relevant the regulations, this is an issue to which various Members year but not at the beginning of the second or third of this House will want to come back. I have probably relevant year, the rent should be calculated in the said all that I can at this time on that. I beg to move. following relevant year. The amendment also removes a redundant cross-reference to paragraph 3(2), which Amendment 1 agreed. is a drafting error we had regrettably not spotted previously. I would like to inform the House that a number of Amendment 2 social housing providers have alerted us to an unintended Moved by Lord Freud consequence of the government amendment brought 2: Clause 8, page 9, leave out lines 38 and 39 forward on Report, which sought to enable continuation of existing policy that affordable rents are inclusive of service charge when determined on the percentage of Amendment 2 agreed. market rent principle, but exclusive of service charge when determined on the social rent model. We have Amendment 3 looked at this and agree there is an issue in the drafting that we need to address. The Government will therefore Moved by Lord Freud be seeking to do so during Commons consideration of 3: After Clause 9, insert the following new Clause— Lords amendments. I thank the providers who raised “Benefit cap: Social Security Advisory Committee that issue with us, and apologise to the House that this (1) In section 170 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 has come up at such a late stage, and that we are (Social Security Advisory Committee), in subsection (5)— dealing with it in this way. (a) in the definition of “the relevant enactments”, after The Bill returns to the other place without the paragraph (al) insert— proposed changes to the ESA WRAG, and the limited “(ala) sections 96 to 97 of that Act;”; capability for work element in universal credit. It also (b) in the definition of “the relevant Northern Ireland now places a requirement on the Government to publish enactments”, after paragraph (al) insert— and report on income measures of child poverty. In “(ala) any provisions in Northern Ireland which correspond sending these amendments back, the Cross-Benchers, to sections 96 to 97 of that Act;”. in particular, have sent a clear message and I will say (2) In Schedule 7 to the Social Security Administration Act 1992 only this: there will now be a process between the two (regulations not requiring prior submission), in Part 1 (Social Houses, as is conventional. We have discussed many Security Advisory Committee), after paragraph 3 insert— other matters during the passage of the Bill. Many of “Benefit cap them are important and we will continue to reflect on 3A Regulations under section 96A of the Welfare Reform them and seek to obtain the best outcomes we can. I Act 2012.”” beg to move.

Amendment 3 agreed. Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, I thank the Minister for his explanation of Amendment 5. It makes the drafting of this area somewhat less Clause 32: Extent impenetrable. I was going to say that it would be churlish, given the occasion, to point out that this is the third or fourth attempt to get this drafting right Amendment 4 but clearly there will need to be a fourth or fifth, from what the Minister has said, and we welcome the point Moved by Lord Freud to which he has alerted us. 4: Clause 32, page 31, line 37, after “9” insert “and (Benefit I take this opportunity to welcome the Minister’s cap: Social Security Advisory Committee)” action in deferring the impact of the rent reduction policy for a period and holding back on the local Amendment 4 agreed. housing allowance. We will have to see where that 2131 Welfare Reform and Work Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2132 leads. Of course, this point was pursued rigorously by May I take this opportunity to place on formal the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Kerslake. My record my thanks to noble Lords throughout the understanding is that this has not necessarily allayed House? They have discharged their duties to look at the concerns of providers sufficiently and there is the risk the Bill really conscientiously, and have worked hard of holding back on some key projects in relation to on some difficult and sensitive issues. They have brought supported accommodation, which would be a great pity. out some unintended consequences, and they have So I think there is a task for the Government there. described them and expressed their case in calm, clear With regard to the amendments that go back with the language, which means that we can take the points and Bill to the other place, all we can do is urge the Minister aim to address them. Indeed, both today and on to send it on its way with his wholehearted support. Report we have tackled some of them. The Bill has been insulted by one or two noble Baroness Manzoor: My Lords, we broadly support Lords. I have to reflect back that it has raised some Amendment 5. It is a positive change. I take this profound issues around what the benefit and welfare opportunity to thank the Minister for the very constructive system does and how it works. Pinpointing where it way in which he has allowed us to meet him, because affects the most vulnerable and how we can ameliorate there have been great challenges in the Bill. It has been that and sort it out has been really valuable. a very difficult Bill and he has been a master at I thank the Bill team, a handful of whom are in the defending a very difficult piece of legislation. I sensed Box now. They have been formidable in supporting me at times that he himself felt, “My gosh, what are we all the way through the progress of the Bill. I know doing here?”. I may be putting words in his mouth but that they have also been assiduous in briefing noble that is the sense I got. Lords, because we set up the system, which I have used Obviously, there are significant financial cuts to with previous Bills, whereby there is a briefing ahead some of the most vulnerable in our society. As the of Committee stage, so that when we debate these Minister is aware, I have been very concerned about issues we do not waste time but are able to deal with the issues relating to the work allowance and the cuts the issues. The Bill team have done a really good job, that will affect working people. We have looked at the and I believe noble Lords think so, too. I am sure I Bill through the prism of work. I am also very concerned express the view of the whole House in thanking them about the cuts to employment allowances for people for all their support. with disabilities and progressive illnesses. I state again that I really cannot understand how cutting £30 a Baroness Sherlock: May I, on behalf of the Opposition, week from the employment allowances for people in thank the Minister for giving us access to his officials? the ESA group is going to make them better and fitter I thank the Bill team and some very impressive policy and enable them to go back to work. I say to the people who have been briefing Peers from all over the Minister: this is going back to the House of Commons House. We appreciate his generosity in giving us access but please could the Government look at this? It is so to them, and their expertise and willingness to explain important as a sign of a compassionate, caring society to us patiently—sometimes, if necessary, more than once that we look after the most vulnerable. But I thank the —precisely how the Bill works. We are grateful for Minister, and the Bill team, for the time he has given that. They have also been helpful in working with the to the Bill and the very constructive dialogue he has wonderful Muna Abbas, from our Whips team, who held with us. has done a brilliant job in supporting us from this side. We have not been persuaded by the Minister that Lord Low of Dalston (CB): My Lords, the Minister this is anything other than a bad Bill—but now, as a made reference to the Bill going back to the other result of what this House has done, it is less bad than it place without the provisions relating to the removal of was. I pay tribute to Peers throughout the House, who the ESA WRAG premium and the comparable allowance have shown the House of Lords doing what it does under universal credit, and to the fact that he would be best—being a revising Chamber which, even when it working to achieve the best outcome in relation to does not like legislation, focuses its attention on improving these provisions. I wonder if he would be prepared to it and sending it back to the other place much better meet my noble friends Lady Meacher and Lady Grey- than it was. Long may we do so. Thompson and me so that we could work together on achieving the best outcome in relation to these provisions. My office is in touch with his office to see if we can set Amendment 5 agreed. up a meeting with him and Priti Patel, who I believe has also been involved in these issues. I very much 3.49 pm appreciate the support of the noble Baroness who spoke before me, and her plea for the Minister to give Bill passed and returned to the Commons with amendments. earnest consideration to this issue, with a view to achieving a better outcome than was in the Bill originally. Housing and Planning Bill 3.45 pm Committee (1st Day) Lord Freud: I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Low, has asked for—a meeting on this matter. Of course I would be pleased to meet him, and other colleagues, to 3.49 pm discuss this as it wends its way back to the Commons, Relevant document: 20th Report from the Delegated and perhaps back to us, depending on what happens. Powers Committee 2133 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2134

Clause 12: Introduction to this Part In Chapter 3, we have the “Database of rogue landlords and property agents”. However, apart from a statement to that effect at the beginning of the chapter, the words Amendment A1 “rogue landlord” do not appear again. Clause 27(1) Moved by Lord Greaves says what the database is. It must include people with A1: Clause 12, page 8, line 17, leave out “rogue” and insert banning orders and it may include people convicted of “specified” a banning order offence while being a residential landlord or property agent. It includes some people Lord Greaves (LD): My Lords, it is an exciting who have to be on the list and some people who can go privilege to set off this Committee. I do not know how on the list, but it is all about banning orders and many sittings we will have, but I am sure that by the banning order offences. end of it we will have completely forgotten today. I This part of the Bill is complicated. I tried to get my start by apologising for not tabling the amendments in mind round it perfectly, but I could not. Then I saw time to go on to the Marshalled List. I was a bit that it will rely on guidance from the Secretary of spooked by the change in today’s business, so I apologise State so that local authorities can understand it in the for that. way that I cannot. Okay, but it is very clear that what As it is the start of a new stage of the Bill, I should we are going to have is a register of banned landlords declare some interests: my membership of Pendle Borough and others who have committed banning order offences. Council, of which I am deputy leader; I am a vice- What will it be called? Will it be called the register of president of the LGA; and I am vice-chairman of the rogue landlords, because the word “rogue” does not APPG on Local Democracy—I shall miss its reception appear in all this? I have the distinct impression that today because of the Bill, and I would rather be there, the phrase “rogue landlord” has been added to this but never mind. There will be other interests, but those legislation—after it was written by civil servants—by relate to the amendments I have tabled at the moment. some spin merchant somewhere in the Government In moving my amendment, I shall speak to the others who thought it would be a good idea to get some good in the group. publicity to get it through. I do not think this is the We move straight to Part 2, and I say right from the way that legislation should be written. That phrase is beginning that, first, this is one of the better parts of in the heading, but it does not appear anywhere else. the Bill and, secondly, it is one of the better written Clauses 40 to 50, which are still under the part and presented parts, with a great amount of detail on which is supposed to be about rogue landlords, are all the face of the Bill and in the schedules. If the whole about rent repayments. The phrase “rogue landlord” Bill were like that, a lot of us would be a lot happier, does not appear anywhere. It is not clear to me whether but we can be happy for the time being. This part is any landlords who get involved in the whole system of headed: rent repayment are rogue landlords or not. The heading “Rogue landlords and property agents”. of this part of the Bill contains the words “rogue When I read it, I asked myself whether the word “rogue” landlords”, but are they rogue landlords or are they is a proper word to appear in legislation. What does it just people on the list who are rogue landlords? mean? Is it not just slang and colloquial? Why is it Chapter 5 is “Interpretation of Part 2”. Clause 52 here? We will come back to that. quite rightly sets out in some detail the “Meaning of Chapter 2—Clauses 13 to 26—is all about “Banning ‘letting agent’ and related expressions”. Clause 53 sets orders”. As I said, the clauses in this chapter are out the “Meaning of ‘property manager’ and related admirably clear. They require the Secretary of State to expressions”. Clause 54 is a typical clause at the end of set out in regulations exactly what the banning orders a part of a Bill. It sets out the meaning of 16 different may be put in place for but, nevertheless, by and large, words and expressions, starting alphabetically with it is a model of good legislation. Clause 13 bans a “banning order” and ending with “tenancy”. However, person from, it does not define “rogue landlord”. “letting housing in England … engaging in English letting agency Another point about which I am not at all clear is work … engaging in English property management work, or … whether, once a person comes off the banned list, they doing two or more of those things”. are still a rogue. The problem is that it is one of those That is absolutely clear. That is what a person is words—once a rogue, always a rogue. What does it banned for if they get a banning order. The interesting mean? I looked up the Oxford Dictionaries on the thing is that, after the first clause of Part 2, the term internet and it is full of colloquial meanings. For “rogue” or “rogue landlord” does not appear at all. example, it mentions that: What sort of offences are we talking about? It will “a distinct criminal culture of rogues, vagabonds, gypsies, beggars, require regulations, but it is clear that it could be cony-catchers, cutpurses, and prostitutes emerged and flourished”, maintaining their property poorly, posing a risk of harm in the 16th century. I suppose that we would not to tenants or other people, dangerously overcrowding accept Gypsies in that definition, but we are not going their properties, exposing people to unhealthy conditions, to have legislation denouncing people as coney-catchers housing illegal immigrants, intimidating or harassing or cutpurses. The synonyms in the dictionary include: tenants who raise a complaint. These things are all absolutely clear, and clearly set out, but they are specific “scoundrel, villain, reprobate, rascal, good-for-nothing, wretch; problems that lead to people being banned; it is not … rotter, bounder, hound, blighter, vagabond”. clear that they lead to a person deserving the Later on, there was something about which I was not epithet “rogue” or being given that epithet for however too happy—it says: long. “Northern English informal tyke, scally”. 2135 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2136

As a Yorkshireman born and bred, I was not too happy Hansard I attributed a comment to my noble friend about “tyke”being there. Perhaps we will have legislation Lord Young of Cookham but he did not make that denouncing lists of “tykes” who have to be dealt with comment. Obviously, I cannot correct it in Hansard in some way. Another definition is: because I said it, so I use this opportunity to correct “A person or thing that behaves in an aberrant or unpredictable the attribution. way”, I will deal with the amendment briefly. When I saw I do not think “rogue” is a suitable word. the word “specified”, I thought of “specified housing” I have put “specified” in the amendment because I as opposed to a person. The public understand the could not think of anything better. I was going to put concept of a rogue landlord, just as they would understand “banned”, but it is clear that other people may also be the concept of a rogue trader. BBC 1 in the morning is put on the list who have not actually been banned but full of stories of rogues of various descriptions, so it is who nevertheless have been convicted of banning offences. understood in the public mind. However, just to be It is not entirely straightforward, but I believe that the clear, the majority of landlords and letting agents word “rogue” and the phrase “rogue landlord” are provide a good service, and we should commend them not appropriate to go into the law of England. The for doing that. This part of the Bill, which is widely Government ought to think of another phrase which supported, is about tackling the small minority of is less suitable for tabloid newspaper articles and more rogues who deliberately flout the rules. We should call suitable for the law of the land. I beg to move. them out for what they are, as they are rogues. It is important that we send a clear message through the 4pm Bill that such practices will not go unchecked. I therefore Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords, this is a ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment. perfect description of the kinds of people we are dealing with. It will emphasise in the public mind Lord Northbourne (CB): My Lords, I speak as a humble exactly what is going on in the area of housing rental, landlord. How will I know whether I am a rogue? and I hope that the Government will not give way on this amendment. Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Lord will know very well if he is a rogue landlord, because I will Lord Deben (Con): My Lords, I am so pleased to be now read out the definition. It is a landlord or property on the same side as the noble Lord who has just agent who knowingly flouts the law by renting out spoken. It seems a frightfully good word, it says exactly unsafe and substandard accommodation. To be on the what we mean and it would be very nice if more of our database, they will have to be convicted of certain legislation used language which we understood. “Rogue serious offences—and, for that, they may come before landlord” is a very good phrase to use because it is your Lordships’ House. very important to underline how disgraceful some people are in their treatment of other people in this crucial part of their lives. My only objection is that the Lord Greaves: My Lords, that is not the correct word is not used more frequently within the Bill, definition, with respect to the Minister, unless being because there are several references within it where a banned by a First-tier Tribunal is a conviction. Perhaps reminder that this is a rogue-like activity is very necessary. it is—it is certainly a status—but it is clear that people banned by the First-tier Tribunal will be on the banned My only other objection is that “rogue”has a certain rather list. One assumes that they are therefore rogue landlords light touch—it is not as nasty as a number of other words under the definition in the Bill, so they would not have that were used. Perhaps if we had to change it, we to be convicted in a higher court of law. Yes, the could go through the list that the noble Lord has put Minister is nodding her head. forward and choose something that is thoroughly more unpleasant than the word “rogue”. However, I cannot I will be brief. I am no friend of bad landlords—far imagine why anybody should start this very serious from it. In the part of Colne that I represent, parts of debate off with a discussion about the word “rogue”. those streets have been wrecked by bad landlords, and This is one of the best things in the Bill. I may have to I agree that it is a clear phrase in the public mind. draw my noble friend’s attention to a number of other However, we are not talking about the public mind but things later on as requiring significant amendment, about phrases that will have to be interpreted at some and many things are left out of the Bill that I would stage by the courts of the country. We are talking like to see put in, but the one thing I certainly would about words written into the law of the land. The use not like to see left out is the word “rogue”. of such colloquial expressions, which are perfectly okay on breakfast-time television as the people who Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, I understand why are denounced there deserve everything they get, will the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, would not wish to be get us into trouble if we put them into the law. considered to be a member of the “Liberal Demotic If the Government are really determined to put this Party” but we have more important things to discuss rather unusual and extraordinary expression into the in the 14 groups that are before us. I trust that the law of the land, it ought to appear in the list of noble Baroness will deal with the matter briefly, and definitions at the end of Part 2 so that we have a clear then we can get into the substance of the Bill. definition of it, because when the Minister was asked just now she did not quite give an accurate one. At the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department very least, I ask that it appears in the list of definitions for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams because words mean what they say. This is not Humpty- of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, before I begin, I will correct Dumpty land. Words actually have a meaning and, a comment I made at Second Reading. At col. 1266 in when it comes to the law, words have more of a meaning 2137 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2138

[LORD GREAVES] The amendment tabled today defines—very narrowly, than they do in chat in the pub or on breakfast-time it must be said—the grounds for a banning offence, television. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw and requires parliamentary approval for the relevant the amendment regulations. The grounds may be considered too narrow. I hope that the Minister will look at the issue and Amendment A1 withdrawn. come back on Report with a more developed position in which parliamentary approval for any new offence Amendment B1 not moved. is required. Clause 12 agreed. Amendment 8ZA to Clause 22 relates to the provision for financial penalties for a breach of a banning order which may be imposed by the local housing authority. Clause 13: “Banning order” and “banning order Subsection (9) requires the housing authority to have offence” regard to any guidance given by the Secretary of State in respect of the exercise of its function under the Amendment C1 clause. The amendment simply requires that such guidance should take effect only under the affirmative procedure. Moved by Lord Beecham The amendment to Clause 22 relates to the provision C1: Clause 13, page 9, line 1, leave out from “means” to end of in the clause in respect of the financial penalties for a line 10 and insert “— breach of the banning order which may be imposed by (a) unlawful eviction of a tenant; or the local housing authority. (b) failure to comply with an improvement notice in The Delegated Powers Committee noted that Clause 22 relation to property conditions. allows a housing authority to impose a penalty of up (4) The Secretary of State may by regulations made by to £30,000 for the breach of a banning order and points statutory instrument amend the list of offences in out that this is an alternative to a criminal prosecution. subsection (3). Unlike in the latter procedure, it will not be necessary (5) A statutory instrument containing regulations under for the authority to prove its case beyond reasonable subsection (4) may not be made unless a draft of the doubt, such that, to quote the committee, instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.” “this clause empowers an authority to act as if it were prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner”. The provision in subsection (9) requiring the authority Lord Beecham: My Lords, I shall speak also to to have regard to the guidance means that such guidance Amendment 8ZA. Both amendments stem from the will be expected to be followed unless there are cogent 20th report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory reasons for not doing so. The committee concluded Reform Committee, published just last Friday—hence that, given the nature of the power conferred on local the fact that they are manuscript amendments. Both housing authorities—which would deny the accused the clauses affected, Clauses 13 and 22, have attracted access to adjudication by a court as to whether a criminal considerable criticism from the committee. They relate offence had been committed—the guidance is of great to the introduction of banning order offences, about significance, and accordingly that it should be laid in which the committee expresses serious concerns. draft and not come into force with the affirmative A ban would arise following conviction for a banning procedure. order offence and would prevent the relevant person These observations essentially foreshadow the from letting or engaging in letting agency or management amendment to be moved later by the noble Baroness, work, as a result of an order made on the application Lady Gardner of Parkes. I think that we are at one on of a local authority. It would also ban the relevant this: indeed, there was, I think, wide agreement around person from holding an HMO licence and allow him the House at Second Reading that there are far too to be placed on a database. However, the Bill does not many areas that are to be covered by regulation with define the offence that would allow the Secretary of no evidence that any of this will be presented to us as State to describe its nature, the offender’s characteristics, the Bill goes through. It may be ready for other parts the place where it was committed, the court passing of the Bill but there is nothing today on these matters. sentence and the sentence itself by regulations subject Unless we have an assurance from the Minister that to the negative procedure—with no restriction whatever we will be able to see regulations before Report, the on the character of the offence, which need not be House should take a strong view in support of the related to housing issues at all. amendment which I now move. In a memorandum, however, a wide range of offences is cited as possibly relevant. The committee sensibly Lord Foster of Bath (LD): My Lords, I rise in pointed out that these offences could be listed in the support of the amendments that have just been introduced. Bill with a power to amend, if necessary, by secondary At Second Reading I welcomed some parts of the Bill legislation. The committee averred: but expressed concerns about some others: about the “We consider it inappropriate that the determination of the lack of detail, the large number of amendments laid at offences that are to constitute ‘banning order offences’ should be the very last minute in another place—again, without left entirely to the discretion of the Secretary of State and with an opportunity for proper scrutiny—and the 30-odd only a modest level of Parliamentary scrutiny”. additional powers given to the Secretary of State. Like The committee recommended removing Clause 13(3) many other noble Lords, I very much welcome the and replacing it with a provision listing offences Minister’s commitment and promise to do all that she constituting banning order offences, with a delegated can to ensure that we get details of the various regulations, power to amend by the affirmative procedure. at least in draft form, as early as possible. 2139 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2140

I think that many noble Lords, however, will share my I am puzzled by one aspect of Amendment C1; concern that, despite the Minister’s promise, it seems perhaps the noble Lord will refer to it when he winds increasingly likely that many of those draft regulations— up. In the memorandum provided by the Government even if we get them before we finish consideration to the committee they say: of the Bill—will not come in time for the relevant “It is envisaged that the type of offences which would be able amendments in Committee, and it may well be that to trigger an application for a banning order would be serious some of those draft regulations will come after we have offences, including a conviction in the Crown Court for offences finished all stages of our deliberations in the House. involving fraud, drugs or sexual assault that are committed in or in relation to a property that is owned or managed by the offender. It is also envisaged that a banning order may be sought 4.15 pm where a person has been convicted of certain specified housing As has already been said by the noble Lord, Lord offences, which will include offences such as unlawful eviction Beecham, we owe a debt of gratitude to the noble and failing to comply with an improvement notice in relation to Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, for tabling property conditions”. Amendment 1. Had it not been trumped by the The last two specified housing offences are referred to amendments now before us, it would have been our in the amendment, but no others are proposed, and only opportunity to express the concerns we have there is no reference in the amendment to the conviction about the lack of detail and regulation. But since the in a Crown Court for offences involving fraud, drugs noble Baroness laid her amendment we have now seen, or sexual assault. as of yesterday, the 20th report from the Delegated The Government are saying that those offences should Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It is a be included in the list. We believe that there should be a list, pretty coruscating document. as proposed in the amendment, and hope, as the noble For those noble Lords who have not read it, it refers Lord said, that the Minister will reflect on this and add to a section of the Government’s memorandum to the those offences to the list. We hope very much that the committee and states: Minister will give her support for this and that in the event “The memorandum gives only the barest explanation or it will not be necessary to deal with Amendment 1. justification for this power; indeed it seeks to dismiss this highly important provision as ‘quasi-technical’”. Lord Deben: My Lords, it is quite understandable It continues: why the Government have been—if I may put it like this —so loose in the wording, because they do not want to “The intended meaning of that expression wholly eludes us, and the House may wish to ask the Minister for an explanation”. get themselves into a position where they cannot act when an offence of some notoriety takes place. I No doubt when we get to the relevant section of the understand that. However, the big issue here for me is Bill we will ask for that. a very fundamental one about the freedom of people On Clauses 13 and 22, which are referred to in the in this country. One needs to know that beforehand amendments before us, as we have heard, there are when one is doing something that will lead to one numerous criticisms raised by the committee. It makes being punished. My concern here is that there is no the point that there is no restriction on the type of certainty and that it might alter depending on who is offences that may be specified in regulations. It goes so the Minister responsible. In recent days, we have had far as to say that it does not have to be one connected an example of how different ways of looking at justice with the letting or management of housing and could can proceed from Ministers of the same political even be one committed before the enactment or coming party—if I may put it as delicately as that. into force of the Bill. In those circumstances, it might be of advantage to The committee points out, however, that some types have a list and to be a little tighter here, while still giving of offences are described in the memorandum and that enough elbow room for the circumstances in which a it cannot understand why the banning order offences rogue landlord might find some way to behave which are not listed in the Bill, together with a delegated we have not yet thought of. As a Member of Parliament power to amend the list as necessary. It points out that for a very long time, my experience of rogue landlords this is particularly puzzling given that the Government was that they are infinite in their ability to discover have succeeded in devising a list of offences in Clause 39, mechanisms by which to penalise, harass and indeed conviction for which could result in a First-tier Tribunal destroy the lives of their tenants. making a rent repayment order. That is why, as we I am sympathetic to this amendment, and think it heard from the noble Lord, the committee said: should contain some of the points raised by the noble “We consider it inappropriate that the determination of the Lord, Lord Foster, but I hope also that we would be offences that are to constitute ‘banning order offences’ should be sympathetic to the Minister on this, because it is left entirely to the discretion of the Secretary of State and with only a modest level of Parliamentary scrutiny … We therefore important that we should be able to move with the recommend that clause 13(3) be removed from the Bill and crime. We should not be so caught by the phraseology replaced with a provision listing the offences that constitute that we cannot deal with something which we have not ‘banning order offences’, coupled with a delegated power to thought of yet. With that proviso, I wonder whether amend the list by affirmative procedure regulation”. my noble friend will look again at the way this is done, The committee is equally critical of the subsections so that we can protect that essential freedom whereby of Clauses 13 and 22 which are referred to in the I know in advance what will happen if I do something amendment. It is therefore to be welcomed that the which I should not do, rather than not knowing in amendment does just what the committee suggested advance what will happen if I do something which I should happen—it introduces a list and states that there might find out someone else has decided I should not should be an affirmative resolution for any subsequent have done. I just do not think that is a very good basis changes to that list. for English law. 2141 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2142

Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I want to intervene serious offence involving violence against the tenant briefly again, because this raises an issue of principle by the landlord or property agent, and serious breaches which came up during our consideration of tax credits. of housing legislation. If you read the report of the Joint Committee on We are planning to publish the secondary regulations Conventions—the Cunningham report—you will find, in draft and will consult on these in the autumn before under one of the sections, the conditions in which the they are laid before the House. These will all be House feels it is entitled to vote on fatal amendments. existing offences that already have serious consequences I am increasingly of the view, as I think are a number for those who are convicted. We are introducing civil of other Members on this side of the House, that the penalties as an alternative to prosecution, and these Government are now abusing legislation by introducing will be available for certain serious breaches of housing skeleton Bills and bringing in, on the back of them, legislation. The guidance for local authorities will be statutory instruments which they feel the House cannot procedural and will provide advice on when it may be consider in detail because we cannot amend them. appropriate to issue a civil penalty rather than prosecute, This is a classic case of where, had the House had been together with advice on what might be the appropriate given more information in the Bill, we would at least level of penalties. have had the opportunity to debate the detail, within The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked about the the circumscribed area referred to by the noble Lord, right of appeal for civil penalties. The landlord will have Lord Deben, that would allow for flexibility. We could a right to appeal against a civil penalty to a First-tier have considered in some detail what the crimes—if I Tribunal and can either cancel or decrease the penalty. might use that word, although it is a very broad Several noble Lords have brought up the DPRRC and one—might be. its recommendations on the delegated powers in the I feel very strongly about fatal amendments. When Bill, including those highlighted in these amendments. it came to the consideration of tax credits, I was one of I can confirm to noble Lords that we will consider the the very few Labour Peers who refused to vote, on the committee’s recommendations and respond in Committee basis that I did regard what we were doing as fatal. if possible, but certainly before Report. I hope that, That is how strongly I felt. However, increasingly in with those comments, the noble Lord will feel content conversations with others, they will point to these to withdraw the amendment. recommendations on skeleton Bills and the use of SIs. One is being driven into a position whereby one has to Lord Shipley (LD): Before the Minister sits down, vote on fatals—something which I never wanted to do can I confirm my understanding of what she has said when I was brought to this House some 15 years ago. about secondary legislation? There was a request earlier As the Bill progresses, the noble Baroness should have that a draft of the secondary legislation should be it in mind that we need more detail, particularly in made available to this House before Report. Yet I areas where Members might feel they wish to amend understood the Minister to say that there would be a primary legislation. draft of the secondary legislation in the autumn, which is clearly not before the Report stage. This is an Baroness Williams of Trafford: Amendments C1 extremely important matter, so can the Minister confirm and 8ZA relate to the same issue, so I shall address exactly what the Government plan to do? them together. Amendment C1 would remove Clause 13(3) from the Bill and replace it with a provision listing the Baroness Williams of Trafford: I thank the noble offences that constitute banning order offences, namely, Lord for seeking that clarification. I said that we were “unlawful eviction of a tenant; or … failure to comply with an planning to publish the regulations and consult on improvement notice in relation to property conditions”, them in the autumn. If I can get any detail on them and would require that regulations to amend the list before then, I shall do so. be subject to affirmative resolutions. Amendment 8ZA would amend Clause 22, and would 4.30 pm require financial penalty guidance to be laid in draft Lord Beecham: My Lords, I am grateful for the before Parliament, and not brought into force without Minister’s reply so far as it goes but there remain an affirmative procedure resolution of each House. significant problems, particularly the contrast between We propose to define banning order offences in a local authority being able effectively to impose a secondary legislation, as this will give us the flexibility penalty of up to £30,000 for breach of a banning to amend the list of banning order offences in the light order on the basis of the balance of probabilities as of experience, as my noble friend Lord Deben said. As opposed to a criminal prosecution, where of course he has also requested in terms of certainty, we are the case would have to be proved beyond reasonable sympathetic to that and we will consider it further. doubt. I am not at all sympathetic to rogue landlords, Clause 13(4) explains what matters may be taken however they are described, but it is a curious position into consideration when setting out in regulations to have two processes, one of which requires a higher what are banning order offences. Banning order offences standard of proof than the other. That cannot really are likely to include a serious offence, where an offender be satisfactory. In some respects, it may well be better has been convicted in the Crown Court of an offence to bring such a person to the courts on a criminal involving fraud, drugs, sexual assault or violence that charge rather than the local authority taking action is committed in, or in relation to, a property that is and securing financial compensation, yet that is a owned or managed by the offender, or which involves, choice that will be left to the local authority. I am or was perpetrated against, persons occupying such a normally very much in favour of local authority discretion, property. A banning order offence also includes any but in this area we have to be careful not to infringe 2143 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2144 the responsibility of the judicial system. I invite the I believe that Ministers are genuinely open to change Minister to undertake at least to consider this aspect but that there is some degree of obstruction within the as well as those that she has already agreed to take department. When we have had our three meetings with back. the Minister on this issue, they have said that they feel they cannot get anything through in time and that all Baroness Williams of Trafford: I am happy to consider this could be looked at after the Bill receives Royal it, but the guidance for the local authorities will make Assent. Of course, that is hopeless: if we look at things it clear in what circumstances it would be appropriate after Royal Assent, all we can do is have a statutory to use a civil penalty rather than to prosecute. If it instrument come forward, to which we say yes or no. would be helpful, though, I will set out more detail We are not then in a position to improve the legislation. around the two routes available. The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, said that, “the regulation rot sets in at line 14 and continues throughout”. Lord Beecham: That would be extremely helpful, Then she said: but it would be particularly important to be clear what standard of proof is required under the procedures “The details will be determined by regulation”.—[Official involved. Would it be the same standard of proof or a Report, 26/1/16; col. 1197.] different one? I am not asking the Minister to answer There it is again. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer, speaking that at the moment, but I would hope for an assurance about, that that would be dealt with in the information that “the lack of published regulations relating to the Bill”, she has kindly offered to supply. I assume that her nod was a nod of consent. I beg leave to withdraw the said: amendment. “I suspect that that is because they have not even been written yet”.—[Official Report, 26/1/16; col. 1239.] Amendment C1 withdrawn. That was a fairly appropriate remark, particularly in view of what had been said at our pre-meetings. Clause 13: “Banning order” and “banning order The noble Baroness, Lady Grender, wanted regulations offence” now. Again, she is one of many of us who have said that. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said that he was expecting, Amendment 1 “vast reams of secondary legislation. Many of the clauses have Moved by Baroness Gardner of Parkes not been properly considered and received cursory—if any—scrutiny in the Commons”. 1: Clause 13, page 9, line 10, at end insert— “( ) This section shall not come into force until at least one I think that is true. The Bill has been pushed on to us year after the publication of a draft of regulations to be after the barest consideration in the Commons, which made under subsection (3).” makes it doubly important that we carefully consider every aspect of it in this House. The noble Lord went Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con): My Lords, I am on to say: very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for “This Bill gives 34 additional powers to the Secretary of covering so much of the explanation of what the wording State”.—[Official Report, 26/1/16; col. 1254.] of my amendment means. It looks a bit obscure to me, That is highly significant. but I understand that it is the appropriate tool for bringing up the issue of the regulations. I consider that The noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, made a we cannot satisfactorily deal with the Bill in its present point, which the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, also form without proper consideration of the proposed made, about the report of the Delegated Powers and regulations. I am impressed by the comments already Regulatory Reform Committee. I know its title well, made by the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord because I served on that committee for almost 10 years Foster of Bath, who have done a lot of explaining that —certainly for more than two terms—and I have I would otherwise have to do. never read a more scathing report than this one. I would not even have realised that it had been published, At Second Reading, of the 50 speakers, more than because it came out so close to time, had I not, at 20 drew attention to the need for us to have the detail, Questions earlier today, found myself sitting next to in the form of draft regulations, available for us to the chairman of that committee, who asked me whether consider during this stage of the Bill. The noble Baroness, I had seen the report. I left Question Time early to run Lady Andrews, said: out and get it, to see what it said. It affirms what we “Vast swathes of policy are left to secondary legislation”, are saying: we need all this. We need the information and concluded: so that we can deal with what is before us. As I said, “The Bill deserves, and I am sure will get, the most intense once the Bill receives Royal Assent, it is too late for us challenge and scrutiny in this House”.—[Official Report, 26/1/16; to make any significant change. It is a very interesting cols. 1188-90.] and enormously powerful Bill, and it must be considered The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, ended his speech with very carefully. Local authorities, too, have the right to the words: know the detail of what is being considered, so that “First, we urgently need to see the detail of what is proposed they can send their comments to Members of this in the secondary legislation. Secondly, we need Ministers to be House, and we can decide what we should be doing. I genuinely open to change”.—[Official Report, 26/1/16; col. 1195.] beg to move. 2145 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2146

The Earl of Lytton (CB): I support the noble Baroness I agree that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory and, in doing so, I declare my interests, first as a Reform Committee’s report is one of the most critical— professional property manager, and—possibly even more possibly the most critical—that I have read. For that significantly—as a private sector landlord. I believe I reason, it matters profoundly how the Government react have a very contented set of tenants, without any of to it. This House must be able to do its job properly. the roguishness that we have heard about. With so much being left to secondary legislation and Leaving aside the absence of a clear due process so much that will not be with us by Report, the in the Bill and the safeguards that should go with that, Government will have to do a very urgent job. in what I can describe only as this “subcontract”process to It has been asserted that perhaps the secondary local government, putting to one side the non-judicial legislation has not been drafted. It really ought to have disposal of a case that might result in the label “rogue”, been. If it has not been, we should be told. If it has with lasting stains on character, and parking for one been, and it is in a form that we could see, even if it is a moment the hiatus in terms of the standard of proof draft of a draft, that would be extremely helpful. I referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, there think the Minister understands the strength of feeling remains an overriding need for Parliament to retain in your Lordships’ House about this issue. I sincerely scrutiny of the process, the safeguards and the standards. hope that she can respond positively to the amendment At the moment we seem to be short of a commitment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes. on that. I am also concerned that the whole process is a bit Lord Beecham: My Lords, I warmly endorse everything reactive, populist and, if I may say so, potentially that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has said, and I, too, discriminatory against a class of person called a landlord pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of or their letting or managing agent. At Second Reading, Parkes, who of course has long had an interest in these I advocated—at least, I hope it was interpreted that matters and has repeatedly raised them in your Lordships’ way—perhaps going beyond that to try to support and House. nurture best practice, in equal measure carrot and It is important that the Government listen to the stick. It seems to me that landlords can very easily be experience of Members from a variety of backgrounds, pilloried by their feckless tenants in the same way that who know a good deal about the implications of tenants can clearly be very easily prejudiced by malevolent legislation of this kind. There is a temptation to legislate landlords. in haste with a risk that you—or, more particularly, There are probably at least as many undesirable tenants, other people—repent at leisure. There is that concern in numerical total, as there are undesirable landlords. I about the way this matter has proceeded thus far. I do not say that in any way to cast aspersions on the fear that it is not uncommon for the committee to tenants. I believe that the vast majority of them, in the comment adversely on the way that matters are brought same way as landlords, honour their commitments, try before your Lordships’ House. Lack of consultation to do the best thing and genuinely create something and the reservation to government of powers to prescribe that is growing in popularity. It is an expanding sector. by secondary legislation, which may not come for a The last thing we need to do is to set about damaging long time or sometimes come into force before any it so that people feel that they are under the cosh and scrutiny has been given, is particularly invidious when go away. At Second Reading, I referred to the fact that we are looking at areas such as this, which impinge on our European neighbours seem to have sorted this out the lives of many citizens. without this continual anti-landlord or anti-tenant adversarial approach in their dealings. 4.45 pm Therefore, we need to look at the whole situation The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, has a point, particularly and—if I may put it this way—somehow invert the process. about the role of local government. If the duties of Perhaps having the regulations before us is one step on local government are to be expanded—and they ought the way so that we can look at that in detail and examine to be in this respect—that is clearly a new burden what the actual process is. At the moment, it would be under the convention which is supposed to apply to possible for almost anything to be passed down to new duties imposed on local government and will have local government. As a vice-president of the Local to be resourced. In certain areas, there will be significant Government Association, I would be slightly fearful, resource implications. That is a function of the expansion as a local government chief officer, of what might get of the private sector market, in particular. The noble passed down to me, thank you very much, as a hand- Earl referred to the growth of the sector, which has me-down to police this sector. been substantial. We now have a very high proportion I support the noble Baroness. The key to this is very of properties rented in the private sector, sometimes much to get these regulations out, and I support the by very reputable bodies. I am particularly pleased to general thrust of her amendment. see well-established, reputable financial institutions now looking at entering the market to provide such Lord Shipley: In a sense, everything has been said about properties. I would not take it for granted, but they are this issue, but we must put on the record, for the more likely to be responsible owners and managers of avoidance of any doubt, that this amendment in the private rented properties than some others of the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, character we have been discussing, of whom there are, is extremely important. As we have heard, had it not unfortunately, too many. been for the manuscript amendments, this would have The reality is that the market has expanded been the first that we discussed. It brings to the fore the hugely because of the constraints on the building of issue of principle about the role of your Lordships’House. local authority housing—social housing—which are 2147 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2148 likely to increase if other parts of the Bill go ahead offences that are in the nature of a banning order unamended, and because of the general property shortage. offence before the legislation comes into force cannot Astronomical rents are being gleaned for little effort in be subject to banning orders. That is quite important either investment or management, save for the purchase in the context of the discussion we are having. The price. That clearly colours our debate. legislation will therefore not apply retrospectively. I concur with those who ask the Government to As I have said before, we have not included the specific produce something before the Bill completes its course, offences in the Bill because we want the flexibility to even if only early drafts. We need to know the direction add further. However, I can confirm that we will consult in which they are going. We need assurances about fully with interested partners on the matters that will how the duty is to be resourced. I do not blame the constitute banning order offences before the regulations Minister for this, but, thus far, those have not come are laid in this House. I have set out the timetable for over the horizon. I hope she will pass on the feelings the consultation and for responding to the DPRRC. I that have been expressed across the House in an effort hope to do that during Committee stage, but in any to encourage others in the department to get on with event we will definitely do it by Report. the job. That is, to bring forward material not just I cannot remember which noble Lord—it may have devised in Whitehall offices but after discussion with been the noble Lord, Lord Foster—asked if we could reputable bodies which have an opinion to give: local have sight of what regulations there might be, when we government, certainly, but also other organisations in might expect them and why we might not have them in the sector. Representatives of tenants and citizens a timely manner. I am more than keen to get what advice bureaux, for example, deal with many cases of information I can to noble Lords to prevent some of difficulties arising in landlord-tenant relations. the obvious concern that arises out of the Bill coming The noble Baroness is obviously of sympathetic forward time and again, which it will—I cannot blame mind. I hope that the opinion of the Committee today the House for doing that. The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, will reinforce her endeavours to persuade colleagues to is not in his place, but I point out that we are attempting react positively to something that is intended to improve to do that as fully as we can throughout the course of the legislation, not to destroy it in any way, and make the Bill. it effective in the interests of all parties. I hope that reassures my noble friend and other noble Lords that we do not intend to implement the Viscount Eccles (Con): My Lords, I was a colleague banning order provisions in the Bill without fully of my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes on the considering the views of the interested parties on the Delegated Powers Committee for a while. My experience nature and characteristics of such offences. We began on that committee was that it thought very carefully before that process last summer when we published our discussion making a recommendation. In general, it has been the paper on tackling rogue landlords, which noble Lords House’s experience that the committee’s recommendations, may or may not have seen, and we will develop them in particularly the more severe ones, are to a large extent further detail through further consultation later in the accepted. I hope that my noble friend on the Front year. I therefore ask my noble friend to withdraw her Bench will be able to persuade her colleagues that the amendment. recommendations we have been discussing—Clauses 13 and 22 come to mind—need to be taken very seriously and responded to in a positive manner, not pushed off Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I thank all into any form of long grass. those who have contributed very helpfully to the amendment and debated it. When the Minister says that Lord Foster of Bath: My Lords, I repeat my she is more than keen to do things and make progress, congratulations to the noble Baroness on being the I believe that. However, I feel there is a lack of willingness first in your Lordships’ House to lay an amendment in the department. I do not say that just because she on this very important issue. I echo all the words of now happens to be the Minister. I had dealings with my noble friend Lord Shipley, although he left one the Minister before her and with various Ministers issue rather hanging in the air: the current state of play before that. In all housing issues, I have found that with the drafting not only of regulations in respect of there has been a reluctance to see any proper reform or Clause 13, which we are discussing, but of all others. progress. That is a great pity. We should probably have Perhaps in her reply the Minister will be kind enough had a consolidation Act of all the property laws that to inform the House what her understanding is of the have been passed. I have been involved in them myself state of play with the drafting of legislation which since the early 1980s. All noble Lords know my registered affects the Bill. interest, so I do not need to repeat it. Each time we pass another Act everyone working anywhere in the Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I understand property world has to keep referring back to the loud and clear the premise of the amendment of my previous Act and the Acts before that. I am told that noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes, which proposes consolidation Bills are not brought forward now because, that the scheme for making the banning orders would in the past, the Law Commission used to finance them not come into force until a year after the draft regulations and bring them to Parliament. It will no longer do so setting out the nature and characteristics of banning unless Parliament agrees to finance the work that it order offences have been published. I understand the does. This also needs a little bit of thought. point about the laying of regulations and responding Something else that needs thought is the First-tier fully to the comments of the DPRR committee, which Tribunal. I opposed the removal of the leasehold noble Lords have made loud and clear. However, I valuation tribunal which could have dealt with the same make it clear that people who have been convicted of sort of issue at a much lower cost. It is now extremely 2149 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2150

[BARONESS GARDNER OF PARKES] immediately to transfer his property. The second option expensive. It used to be only £500. No matter what your is immediate eviction and a quick sale of the property. case, more than £500 could not be awarded against This brings me to the tenant. If they are living in you for most leasehold offences. Now, to bring your appalling conditions, with a bad landlord, but know case at all, it is a minimum of £500 to walk in the door. and understand that their complaint will result in It has changed into a much heavier legal procedure eviction, will their fear of this outcome reduce their which I do not think works so well for simple cases. It likelihood of making use of this welcome change in has always been there and acknowledged to be necessary the law? Will local authorities in turn worry that to for the more important or serious cases. Certainly ban a landlord will result in more people being accepted rogue landlords will come into that category. I did not as unintentionally homeless on their books? Is there speak earlier but, of course, the word “rogue” means a danger that these tenants will be classified by local something different to me as an Australian. authorities as intentionally homeless because of To return to the original point, I respect what the mandatory possession under Section 8 of the Housing Minister has said. I hope she can persuade her department Act 1988? The risk of that increases with buy-to-let to bring these matters forward. I thank all those noble mortgages when landlords get Section 8s in situations Lords who have participated and I beg leave to withdraw of mortgage arrears and repossessions. the amendment. Amendment 1 withdrawn. 5pm I have a further question for the Minister suggested Clause 13 agreed. by the amendment: if the exemption in the Bill is in Clauses 14 and 15 agreed. place because of existing tenants, where does that rental income go—directly to a landlord that the local Clause 16: Duration and effect of banning order authority is trying to ban at that point in time? The amendment simply attempts to ensure that a possible consequence is anticipated and dealt with in advance Amendment 2 by understanding the likely impact on tenants. I guess Moved by Baroness Grender that there are some ideal scenarios; perhaps the 2: Clause 16, page 10, line 12, at end insert— Government should consider an option where the “( ) A banning order must specify how many tenants are local authority could be given the freedom to step in thought to be affected by the banning order and what and appoint a suitable person or agency to manage the arrangements will be put in place to mitigate against other properties, although obviously that would need those tenants becoming homeless. to be with sufficient resource. Either way, the amendment ( ) A banning order must specify that a local authority has throws light on an issue in the Bill that needs serious given due consideration to issuing a management order to consideration. ensure existing tenancies are continued, wherever possible.” Last week the Minister spoke in the Moses Room Baroness Grender (LD): My Lords, these Benches with great conviction about preventing homelessness. welcome moves in this Bill to deal with rogue landlords, Will she please give an undertaking today to look but this amendment deals with what I believe to be a again at this part of the Bill to ensure that homelessness possible unintended consequence which I think the is not the outcome of a banning order on a rogue Government and the Committee should consider. landlord? We know that the end of a private tenancy is now the most common cause of statutory homelessness, When a landlord is banned what happens to any accounting for 31% of all households accepted as existing tenants of that landlord? This Bill lacks clarity homeless in England and 42% in London. These Benches in this situation. In Clause 16(4)(a) the implication is believe that this part of the Bill has laudable intentions, that existing tenancies will normally need to be brought but if the consequence is to make more people homeless to an immediate end with the following wording: then it is a very high price. I beg to move. “A banning order may… contain exceptions— to deal with cases where there are existing tenancies and the landlord does not have the power to bring them to an immediate end”. Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD): On the face of the Bill, this seems to suggest that the My Lords, I support my noble friend’s comments and preferred route in these circumstances would be an agree with everything that she has said. I shall speak immediate end to all other tenancies. The danger here specifically to Amendment 7, which is in this group is clear. An immediate end to a tenancy of someone and is a probing amendment. already in the precarious situation of renting from Banning orders are a very important element of the a rogue landlord means for many the threat—or maybe the Bill. They are not undertaken lightly and involve a reality—of homelessness or rooflessness. My amendment great deal of research and work on the part of the tries to provide a safety net for any tenants who will be local authorities. It takes many months of gathering in danger of becoming homeless as a result of a ban. information from tenants and consulting with related We also need to assume, in a worst case scenario, agencies operating in the sector, such as Citizens Advice, that the banned landlord has two options. First, he food banks, social services and local housing associations, could transfer property to another party. In spite of to build up a picture around a person who they are the list of exceptions in Clause 26, let us assume, for investigating with a view to considering a banning the sake of argument, that the address book of this order. Local authorities’ budgets are extremely stretched, rogue landlord is not littered with responsible social as we know, and while it is to everyone’s advantage that landlord friends and acquaintances to whom he wishes they undertake this work in order to achieve a successful 2151 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2152 outcome when they apply for a planning order, it Private tenants need additional reassurance that rogue seems not unreasonable that they should receive the landlords will be driven out of business, and banning fine as recompense for the work undertaken. This will orders for these criminal landlords and property agents be especially important when it is highly likely that the is needed to prevent them operating and repeating serious local authority will be expected to house those previous housing offences. As a council leader, I believe that having tenants of the landlord subject to the banning order, the ability to apply for banning orders, together with as my noble friend has indicated. fines, against rogue landlords and property agents is There is an undertaking that local government will not essential. This will prevent serious or repeat offenders, be expected to take on new burdens that are not listed who are known to cause misery and harm to renters in the new burdens doctrine, with the expectation that and place them at serious risk, from letting property. the Chancellor will have had regard to this requirement In such cases, there should be no room for these when making the local government settlement. I would operators within the sector. I am pleased that the be grateful if the Minister could confirm that this is Government are determined to crack down on these the case. Might she also be able to find a way forward landlords so that they either improve the service they to recompense local authorities in some way for this provide or leave. additional work, which is desperately needed by private I also welcome the introduction of a much-needed sector tenants? database of rogue landlords and property agents. This will allow greater co-operation of local authorities around The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, the noble Baroness, the country to keep track on banning orders and monitor Lady Grender, has raised a very important matter, and ongoing trends. Having this national co-operation will, it is appropriate that it should be grouped with government as I said, prevent serious or repeat offenders who are Amendments 3 and 4. As the noble Lord, Lord Deben, known to be causing misery and harm to renters and mentioned earlier, there is no limit to the amount of placing them at serious risk, from letting property, and roguishness that can come about. As to the question there should be no room for these operators within the of identifying who is the perpetrator, who the owner sector. and who the person in control—is it a company and or I ask the Minister to assure noble Lords that further an individual?—these are murky waters, particularly government intervention against rogue landlords will with patterns of complex ownership, possibly involving happen and that she will collaborate with council ownerships of non-domestic individuals or companies, leaders, like myself, in bringing a rogue landlord database and so it goes on. It begs the question, in terms of to fruition as soon as possible. Amendments 3 and 4, as to what the person faced with the sanctions envisaged here will do under the government Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD): My Lords, I amendments in particular. What is the nuclear option? support Amendments 2 and 7, and draw the Committee’s What are the choices before the case is even heard, let attention to my entry in the register of interests as a alone when it is actually heard? What happens when a director of the Property Redress Scheme, one of the conviction occurs and is subject to an appeal? government recognised organisations. This leaves potentially malevolent folk, if that is Amendment 2, in the name of my noble friend what they are—we assume that the ones who are rogues Lady Grender, draws attention to the fact that this are malevolent folk and are appropriately labelled as House and the other place do not consider legislation such—still with the considerable ability to make mischief in a holistic fashion. We seem to consider one amendment and make life a misery. Whether that is spitefulness, to one piece of legislation without looking at the simply being manipulative, or whatever, I see great unintended consequences of that legislation, as identified problems. That is one of the reasons why I am concerned by Amendment 2. Yes, we should address rogue landlords, for local government being handed this issue on a however one describes them, but that will have an plate. There may be very uncertain outcomes that are effect on the tenants of the relevant properties. The extremely costly to unpick. Bearing in mind what I tenant who makes a complaint will have some protection said a few minutes ago, I am not in favour of short- in terms of getting rehoused, but the property may changing due process. There must be due process. I do contain a number of tenants, including those who not think we can tackle roguishness that borders on, have not made a complaint against the landlord who is or may actually be, criminality, other than by proper banned. If the property is no longer available for due process. We cannot have the rule of law being letting, those tenants will become homeless. My noble circumvented to catch these people; we have to play friend drew attention to the transfer of the relevant this by the rule book. That is the only way in which not property to other people who are not specified in the to discourage the willing horses while at the same time Bill. What then happens to the tenants? We do not squeezing out the malevolent types. know that because we are not adopting a holistic I see, as the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, sees, approach to the legislation. The noble Baroness, Lady some serious structural difficulties in dealing with this Gardner of Parkes, said that we do not have consolidation in practice. We have in this Committee the skills set to Bills. We have unintentional effects because of that. unpick this and to consider the complications and Amendment 7 was spoken to by my noble friend ramifications. Lady Bakewell. The problem is that we pass legislation without considering sanctions. The sanctions are to be Baroness Redfern (Con): My Lords, I support the imposed by local authorities, which are having their Bill and welcome the following very clear measures to grants reduced and are looking for ways not to spend tackle the issue of rogue landlords that will strengthen money rather than to spend it. Amendment 7 proposes the private rented sector. that local authorities which are proactive in implementing 2153 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2154

[LORD PALMER OF CHILDS HILL] or , under subsection (4)(f), the legislation should retain the relevant financial penalty. “a body corporate in which the landlord has a shareholding or When the Minister replies, will she say whether the other financial interest”. Government have had discussions with trading standards Subsection (5) states that an, departments, environmental health departments and “‘associated person’ is to be read in accordance with section 178 housing departments on how they will implement this of the Housing Act 1996”. part of the legislation to ban rogue landlords? I know In that section of the 1996 Act, I am told that an of only one London borough—Camden—that has a “associated person” is someone who is in a marriage really active trading standards officer dealing with to, or is a cohabitee of, or lives with, or is a relative of housing, but the rest do not have the finance to cover the landlord, or someone whom the landlord is about this area. Therefore, I hope that some research has to marry, or who is a child of the landlord. Does this been carried out with local authorities in England to include relationships that have developed and are registered determine whether these restrictions will bite where overseas? Many landlords will be operating from overseas, they need to. so we will have great difficulty identifying who the owner of a particular property is. Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I support This brings me to the second point, which is about, Amendment 7. I appreciate what has just been said, “a body corporate in which the landlord has a shareholding or but certainly my view is that one of the big problems has a financial interest”. with all these housing issues of overcrowding and What about companies registered outside the United everything else is that the local authorities cannot Kingdom? The landlord might be in some tax haven afford to implement the enforcement and inspection or in some other part of the world, which is perfectly measures that are constantly necessary. Indeed, at a respectable but where we do not have much access to later stage in the Bill I intend to bring forward an information. I think these bodies need to be more amendment to enable them to charge more for planning clearly defined in the law, and I wondered whether the applications for these enormously expensive huge noble Baroness might wish to comment on that as a underground developments which many people find proposition. very inconvenient. The person who applies for planning permission for a simple little underground development Lord Greaves: My Lords, the amendments put forward just to give their family more space pays the same give rise to a very simple, brutal question—I speak as amount as the person applying to build a multimillion somebody who is wrestling with trying to produce pound development. That is very unfair. The proposed a council budget at the moment, in very difficult measure would enable local authorities to have a little circumstances—and that is: how much is this going to more money to enforce their many obligations. This cost local authorities? I have looked at the impact amendment is valuable in that respect. assessment, and basically it talks about the cost to the private housing sector—to the providers of private- 5.15 pm landlord accommodation. Unless I have completely missed it, I cannot find any assessment of the cost to Lord Campbell-Savours: I will speak to the amendments the local authorities, who will have the responsibility moved and spoken to by the noble Baronesses, Lady of doing all this. My first question is: have the Government Grender and Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. made an assessment of this and, if so, will they tell us We all know the reality.The reality is that local authorities what it is? will be picking up this responsibility because people The second thing I have been trying to apply my will be advised by the homeless charities or whatever mind to is, in my own authority, how we will deal with to go to the local authority, and the local authority this. The point about local authorities, of course, is will have to pay. The question is: who should ultimately that they are very different: there are large unitary pay? counties, there are large metropolitan and other unitary It may be that the Government should take upon urban authorities, and there are small districts. It is the themselves the right to take a charge on the landlord’s housing authorities as a whole which will have to deal property. I know it would be very controversial—I am with this, including the small districts. The way the sure the lawyers would have a field day—but it would small districts may be able to cope is perhaps very mean that the local authorities would get their money different to that of a large authority that employs a lot back. I therefore put that as a suggestion, which the more specialist staff, such as solicitors and property Minister might wish to pursue when we get to Report. management people. I have, therefore, been trying to Government Amendment 4, in the name of the get my mind round how local authorities will actually noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, deals with make the decisions about applying to the tribunal for a further offences by the person who committed a first banning order—who will make those decisions, how it offence. What about people who transfer their interest, will be done, how much it will cost, how much work so that the further offence is committed by the person will go into it—and dealing with appeals, because it is to whom the interest has been transferred? Clause 26 quite clear that there will be a lot of appeals, assuming deals with the “Prohibition of certain disposals”. that a lot of people go through the banning process. Subsection (1) states: Then there is the second decision. Apart from the “A person who is subject to a banning order that includes a people who have gone through the tribunal and ban on letting may not make an unauthorised transfer of an automatically go on the database, there is a decision about estate in land to a prohibited person”. whether to put the other people who have been convicted Subsection (4) describes a “prohibited person” as, of banning offences on the database. How much time “a person associated with the landlord”, and resource will that decision take? Again, there is 2155 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2156 the question of appeals, which are never cheap for these Benches. After we have taken action against the local authorities, and then there is the cost of maintaining rogue landlords, what happens to their tenants? These the database itself: whether or not that is onerous will be the very people who have suffered at the hands depends on how many people there are on the database. of the rogue landlord in the first place. It is right that My second question is really linked to how much the the amendment should be in the Bill and not left to Government think this is going to cost local authorities— regulations, advice notes or any other procedure that any answer to that must be based on an idea of how does not involve it being clear in the Bill itself. If the many cases there are going to be over the period of a noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, does not year, or whatever it might be. Do the Government accept the amendments today, I hope that she will at have any answer at all to those questions? least reflect on this proposal and meet with colleagues from your Lordships’ House to discuss this matter Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab): My Lords, at before we get to Report. the start of the first day of Committee, and my first We also support Amendment 7, in the names of the contribution at that stage, I should have declared that noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, I am an elected councillor of the London Borough of and the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill. Lewisham. Following an enforcement action resulting in a financial I join other noble Lords in concern about the lack penalty, it must be right that the money should be of regulations available for noble Lords to see. Why retained by the local authority and not be lost to the does the Minister think that it is acceptable to bring Consolidated Fund or some other place where money forward a Bill in such a sorry state? Does she accept from these penalties goes and never returns. that it is wholly inadequate to suggest that the Government The remaining amendments in this group are will consult fully and lay regulations months after the government amendments. Amendments 3 and 8 appear Bill has become law? to correct drafting errors and make matters clearer. On Second Reading, and subsequently, I and other Amendment 4, to which my noble friend Lord Campbell- noble Lords from these Benches have welcomed the Savours referred, seeks to deal with the situation where banning order proposals in the Bill. They will provide, a person convicted of an offence continues with the we hope, an effective additional tool for local housing breach after conviction. I have an issue with this authorities to use against rogue landlords and persons amendment. Does it go far enough when dealing with engaging in letting agency or property management work people who, at this stage, have no respect for the law, who think that they can rip off tenants and treat them or where the tenants are again in a difficult situation? badly with impunity. With an ever-increasing number of We may need to look at that further. people forced into the private rented sector, it is important My noble friend Lord Beecham will ask more questions that there are proper safeguards. Peter Rachman became of the Minister when she moves her amendments. At synonymous with the rogue landlords of the 1960s. We that point, we may need to look at the issue further want to ensure that we do not have any modern-day and bring an amendment back on Report. Rachmans, or, if we do, that they are dealt with effectively. I also see the proposals in this part of the Bill as a Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I shall first step to dealing with the issues in the private rented answer the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, first because I sector that make life difficult for tenants living at the ran out of time in a debate the other day and I could poorer end of the market. The ward that I represent not answer him fully. He will get first place on the on Lewisham Council is typical of those that the Bill is housing list today. aimed at: we have very little local authority housing other than a successful housing co-op, and until recently The noble Lord referred to the regulations which an overwhelming number of people there were owner- other noble Lords have mentioned at length. I can only occupiers. However, there has been an explosion in the reiterate my desire to bring forward as much information private rented sector in the last 10 years, for a variety as I can. In any event, as I outlined in relation to the of reasons. Most landlords are very good, with anything previous amendment, none of the orders could be from one to a few properties. They often get into the implemented until the regulations were in force. So the market as a landlord because they have fallen into negative orders would not be retrospective; they would only be equity, have looked to move on but have been unable made after the regulations had gone through. However, to cover their capital outlay. Many of those coming to I take his point and I will do my best to bring forward my surgeries are now private sector tenants, invariably as much information as possible. young people, both singles and couples, who cannot get The noble Lord made a point about social housing any social housing because they are not in a priority being so much harder to obtain than previously for group, cannot go on the housing list, cannot afford to people who would seem to be on modest incomes. That buy and are left to seek refuge in the private rented sector. is behind the Government’s priority of building homes When I was a member of Southwark Council in the for all types of tenure in this Parliament, but focusing 1980s, we had properties deemed hard to let—that particularly on the younger generation that he talks nobody wanted to live in—and the council was able to about who are increasingly left out of the housing market. let those to single people and couples who would not He also asked whether I would meet with him and otherwise qualify for social housing. That category no colleagues before Report and I will be happy to do so. longer exists. The amendment proposed by the noble Amendments 3 and 4 amend Clause 20 so that a Baroness, Lady Grender, in this group, has identified person who has been convicted of breaching a banning what is a significant omission from the Bill. The order and continues to breach the order after that amendment has the full support of noble Lords on conviction shall commit a further offence and be liable 2157 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2158

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] of any property owned by a landlord who is subject to to a fine not exceeding one-tenth of level 2 on the a banning order. These orders, which would allow tenants standard scales for each day or part of a day on which to stay on in the property while it is managed by the the breach occurs. This would equate to up to £50 a local authority, are particularly likely to be made in day until the breach ceases The amendment also introduces areas of high housing demand. In such circumstances, a defence of reasonable excuse in relation to the further the local authority will be responsible for managing the offence which will capture any cases where a person property and will retain all the rental income, which was genuinely not able to cease breaching a banning can be used for the local authority’s housing purposes. order following conviction because, for example, they Because of this, local authorities will in future be were in hospital and therefore unable to manage their incentivised to consider the use of management orders. affairs to bring tenancies to an end. Rogues who On Amendment 7, proposed by the noble Baroness, continue to let out their properties despite being convicted Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, as the Housing for that offence will therefore not only incur punishment Minister set out in the other place, local housing for the initial breach of the order but will continue to authorities will be able to retain fines they receive as be punished for each additional day that they remain income. The Bill will enable local authorities to issue in breach of the order. This sends out a strong message civil penalties of up to £30,000 and to seek rent that a breach of banning order will not be tolerated. repayment orders covering the previous 12 months. Amendments 5, 6 and 8 amend Clause 22 so that a Councils will also be able to retain the money from person who has had a civil penalty imposed upon civil penalties and rent repayment orders where the them for breaching a banning order as an alternative rent was paid from housing benefit or universal credit, to prosecution, and continues to breach the order and reuse that for housing purposes. despite the first civil penalty, can have an additional civil penalty of up to £30,000 imposed for each period Lord Greaves: I have an amendment later on that of six months or part of a six-month period in which refers to empty dwelling management orders, which the breach of the banning order continues. Rogues do not work very well at the moment. If a local who continue to let out their properties despite having authority is managing a property because the owner of incurred a civil penalty for the breach will, therefore, that property has a banning order, is it assumed that be subject to additional civil penalties for continuation the only money the local authority can spend on the of the breach. This sends out the strong message that a property, which may be severely substandard—that breach of a banning order will not be tolerated and may be why the banning order is there, or may be will ensure that the business model of rogue landlords related to it—is the money taken in rents, even if it is is disrupted. not sufficient to bring it up to standard? If so, do we accept that a local authority is managing a substandard 5.30 pm property for a period of time and if not, where will the Turning to Amendment 2, tabled by the noble local authority get the money to put into that property? Baroness, Lady Grender, I totally acknowledge her point that a vulnerable tenant should not be made Baroness Williams of Trafford: I think that comes homeless through no fault of their own as a result of a back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord banning order. However, as my noble friend Lady Campbell-Savours, about charges on properties. The Redfern says, the Bill is focused on sanctioning rogue local authority cannot in any circumstances of managing landlords, but not at the cost of innocent tenants. The that property be out of pocket, but nor would the Bill will prevent tenants being made homeless by tenants be expected to live in substandard conditions. providing exceptions to a banning order or by allowing Therefore, any money that needed to be spent on the a local authority to manage the property in place of a property could be recouped by a charge on the property. banned landlord. I think that answers the questions of both the noble Lords, Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Greaves. Clause 15 provides that in deciding whether to make a banning order and what order to make, the tribunal Lord Beecham: A further question has just occurred must consider the likely effect of the banning order on to me. We are assuming that we are talking only about anyone who may be affected by it, which clearly includes a landlord and a tenant but of course, there may well tenants. Provision has been made for a banning order be a mortgagee. What happens in the event that the to be subject to exceptions; for example, where existing council takes over the property? Is the council then tenancies are in place which the landlord does not responsible for paying the mortgage payments out of have the power to bring to an immediate end, or to the money it receives and, if not, is the tenant not at allow a letting agent to wind down their business. An risk of the mortgagee obtaining possession of the exception could, for example, be made for a period of property? some months to allow tenants adequate time to find alternative accommodation. Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, as far as The noble Baroness asked who the rent would be I know, the mortgagee is responsible for paying the paid to and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked mortgage. If the rents do not cover the costs of any about recompense, which are both valid questions. works that need to be done on the house, again, it The use of management orders by local authorities is comes back to the charge on the property in order to already established through the Housing Act 2004. keep those tenants in the property for the agreed Schedule 3 to the Bill extends the circumstances in period of the tenancy. That is the way I think it would which management orders may be made. It allows a work, but I will confirm that in writing because I do local authority to make a management order in respect not want to mislead noble Lords. 2159 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2160

Lord Campbell-Savours: The issue there would be his rent or having his mortgage paid and the council is whether the council had a first or second charge. in there taking things over. I am wondering about the human issue. Baroness Williams of Trafford: Yes, it would. May I clarify that in writing? Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I do not have any particular concerns about the rogue landlord; Lord Foster of Bath: I wonder if the Minister can I am concerned about the vulnerable tenant. That is help me because I am now slightly confused. If the local why the local authority, or the managing agent of the authority is expected to use funds upfront to make repairs local authority, is the protection for the tenant who, if and bring a property up to suitable standards, and the they have been subject to the practice of a rogue only way it can recoup them is through a charge—whether landlord, might find it a light relief not to be treated in a first or a second charge—is it not the case that that such a contemptuous way. money can be realised to the council only when the property is sold, which may be a considerable time Lord Kennedy of Southwark: That is absolutely after the local authority has incurred the costs? right. I have no worries for the rogue landlord but the noble Lord, Lord Deben, spoke earlier about these Baroness Williams of Trafford: That might be the characters and some of their despicable practices. I am case. The point is that the local authority could recoup worried about how they treat their tenants. the costs. I think the premise of all the questions is the local authority not being out of pocket because of its Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: In terms of the charges obligations to the tenants. The noble Lord, Lord on the property, I seek some clarification. We are told Greaves, is shaking his head so I will let him intervene. that the local authority may have taken over management of the property and be taking a charge on it, and will Lord Greaves: I am grateful to the Minister for be able to underwrite its costs in one way or another, giving way when I was not asking her to. This is a new which seems very sensible. The problem is if there is an convention which perhaps we should adopt. I think existing charge on the property because the owner has the point that my noble friend Lord Foster of Bath a mortgage on it. To seek recompense and take action, was making is that it might be a very long time before the local authority will have to take cognisance of the the property is sold by the owner. It could be 50 years, fact that there is already a charge on that property. A by which time who knows whether local authorities local authority may be very reluctant to incur the cost will still exist? There appears to be no means by which when it knows it is in a queue and may get nothing the local authority is guaranteed to get its money back whatever at the end of the line. within the period of the banning order. Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I would Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I hope I assume that in those circumstances the local authority made the point clearly that ultimately, the local authority would take a second charge out on the house. That is will get its money back. That might mean that at the the assumption I would make in such circumstances. end of a tenancy the local authority could force the Under subsection (7) the Secretary of State may sale of a property in order to get its money back, but make regulations specifying how financial penalties the point is that the local authority can get its money recovered under this clause are to be dealt with. Broadly back. I guess if it incurred any interest charges over speaking, we envisage that such sums could be used in the period, it can claim those back as well. But such is connection with the authority’s private sector housing the level of the civil penalty that local authorities functions, but we will discuss the details of how the should be in a fairly good position, using penalties and income is to be applied with relevant parties before other things to service any housing costs they might making the regulations. We will consult on guidance, have and to not be left out of pocket. setting out the appropriate penalties to levy, and take into account a wide range of circumstances. Such Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am trying to be helpful guidance will also cover landlords’ right to appeal. to the Minister. It would be extremely helpful if she Furthermore, we will issue local authorities with guidance could write to us all with some examples and figures on the utilisation of any money they receive through showing how this might work in practice, both in financial penalties. terms of the procedure and some numbers, so that we I do not know whether I answered the noble Baroness, can understand it—which we are not going to this Lady Bakewell, and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, afternoon, clearly. about the new burdens. I have probably made my point, but any policy that could result in a local Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I think I authority incurring costs is subject to a new burdens understood what I was saying, but I am sorry if noble assessment. We have considered this test when developing Lords did not. I shall be very happy to write and this policy. It is not a burden as it is not a requirement explain. I always use the example of a house that costs to place someone under a banning order. £100, so it will probably be something around that. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, on how local authorities will implement this policy, local Lord Kennedy of Southwark: While all this is going authorities have warmly welcomed it because it will on, I am conscious that there is one very vulnerable help them to crack down on the rogues and retain the tenant and one rogue landlord, who is getting angrier. income from civil penalties and rent repayment orders. What protection is there for the poor tenant left there It is important that noble Lords are satisfied that local while all this is going on? The landlord is not getting authorities are very happy with this. 2161 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2162

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] Baroness Williams of Trafford: I thank the noble The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, mentioned Lord, not for letting me off the hook but for deferring the transfer of interest to a prohibited person when the hook. I will write to him about that. I request that that interest is an overseas interest. It does not matter the noble Baroness withdraws the amendment at this whether it is an overseas interest or whether it is in this stage. country, the policy still applies, as I understand it. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, asked how local Baroness Grender: I thank all noble Lords for their authorities would make their decision and how many contributions to this discussion and the noble Earl, cases we would have a year. Local authorities are likely Lord Lytton, for his support for continuing to examine to seek banning orders where the offence is particularly this area. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of serious or where they have a repeat offender. We Childs Hill, who raised property transfer and the estimate that there will be about 600 banning orders noble Lords, Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Greaves, per year. I hope my comments have reassured noble for commenting on where the resource goes, about Lords, but I see that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is which we have already had much discussion. The about to stand up. Minister said that we would find some answers and reassurance for tenants in Schedule 3. We will continue 5.45 pm to scrutinise this issue to make sure that there is Lord Beecham: I am sorry to add to the noble absolutely no threat of a tenant being made homeless Baroness’s problems. However, I am slightly puzzled by as a result of the activities of a dreadful rogue landlord. the relationship between government Amendments 3 That is the main aim of this amendment and we will and 4, which apply to Clause 20, and government continue to review that as the Bill progresses. However, Amendments 5 and 6, which apply to Clause 22. at this point, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Government Amendment 4 to Clause 20 specifies: Amendment 2 withdrawn. “Where a person is convicted … of breaching a banning order and the breach continues after conviction, the person commits a Clause 16 agreed. further offence and is liable … to a fine not exceeding one-tenth of level 2 on the standard scale for each day or part of a day”. Clauses 17 to 19 agreed. However, government Amendment 6 to Clause 22 states that, Clause 20: Offence of breach of banning order “subsection (3A) allows another penalty to be imposed … If a breach continues for more than 6 months, a financial penalty may Amendments 3 and 4 be imposed for each additional 6 month period for the whole or part of which the breach continues”. Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford Is that on the same basis or a different basis? I apprehend 3: Clause 20, page 11, line 23, leave out “this section” and that the Minister may not be able to give me an answer insert “subsection (1)” off the cuff, but will she have a look at that—or get 4: Clause 20, page 11, line 27, at end insert— somebody to have a look at it—to see whether there is “(3A) Where a person is convicted under subsection (1) of a relationship between those two positions, or whether breaching a banning order and the breach continues after they deal with different issues? At the moment, I am conviction, the person commits a further offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding confused—which is not unusual. It may be perfectly one-tenth of level 2 on the standard scale for each day or simple but it does not look terribly simple from these part of a day on which the breach continues. two amendments. (3B) In proceedings for an offence under subsection (3A) it is a defence to show that the person had a reasonable Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, as I excuse for the continued breach.” understand it, the second penalty is an enhancement of the first, so they are related. However, I think the first Amendments 3 and 4 agreed. is a lesser penalty because it involves a first breach and the second is greater because it perpetuates the breach. Clause 20, as amended, agreed.

Lord Beecham: With respect, that does not tell us or Clause 21 agreed. the offender the basis on which the second penalty would be calculated. Clause 22: Financial penalty for breach of banning order Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, Clause 20 concerns a criminal offence whereas Clause 22 concerns Amendments 5 and 6 a civil penalty, which is an alternative, if that makes Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford any sense. 5: Clause 22, page 12, line 4, leave out “20” and insert “20(1)” Lord Beecham: I am sorry to persist but that does 6: Clause 22, page 12, line 9, at end insert “, unless subsection (3A) allows another penalty to be imposed. not tell us the basis on which the relevant penalty would be calculated. It is clear as regards the criminal offence, “(3A) If a breach continues for more than 6 months, a financial penalty may be imposed for each additional 6 month if that is the distinction, but it is not clear whether the period for the whole or part of which the breach continues.” same way of calculating the penalty is used. I do not expect the noble Baroness to answer that today but if Amendments 5 and 6 agreed. she could answer it in writing subsequently, that would be fine. Amendment 7 not moved. 2163 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2164

possible. Likewise, the landlord will be waiting for the Amendment 8 sword of Damocles to fall, and this could be unjustified, as we heard from the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, earlier. Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford It is only fair and equitable that this uncertainty be as 8: Clause 22, page 12, line 13, leave out “20” and insert “20(1)” short-lived as possible for all concerned. That is why I have tabled this amendment, requiring the appeal to Amendment 8 agreed. be heard within 28 days so that the decision is reached quickly and efficiently for the benefit of all concerned. Amendment 8ZA not moved. I hope the Minister can agree to it. Turning to Amendment 10, the register of rogue Clause 22, as amended, agreed. landlords is one of the most important steps forward in this Bill. Those of us who have been, or are still, Schedule 1 agreed. councillors will know at first hand what misery can be caused by a tenant who has what is now classed as a Clauses 23 and 24 agreed. rogue landlord. All housing department officers know who they are as the tenants of these landlords are Schedule 2 agreed. frequently in their offices or on the phone complaining about the treatment meted out to them. The frequency Clause 25 agreed. of evictions by these landlords, or the sudden ending of tenancies, alerts officers to where they are and the Schedule 3 agreed. properties that they own and run. It is essential that a register of rogue landlords be Clause 26 agreed. set up which can be accessed by those agencies supporting their tenants. These agencies will be well-known, trusted Clause 27: Database of rogue landlords and property deliverers of advice and support, including the local agents authority, the CAB, the DWP, jobcentres and possibly food banks. It is vital that tenants are also able to access Amendment 8A not moved. this register if they are not to go from one poor landlord to another. It will always be the case that those who are the most desperate to find a roof over Clause 27 agreed. their head for themselves, their partner and perhaps even their children will be most at risk of being Clauses 28 to 30 agreed. exploited. They need this information to assist them to make the right choices. Clause 31: Appeals It is not as though the names of those who are likely to arrive on the register will not already be in the Amendment 9 public domain. Local newspapers are full of court reports. Someone on the register is also likely to be engaged in Moved by Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville other activities and will have come to the notice of 9: Clause 31, page 15, line 29, at end insert— police and local authorities. If they have previously “( ) An appeal under this section must be heard within held a licence for a HMO, that will have been reported 28 days.” in the local newspapers. I can understand that there are some sensitivities here, but we must protect tenants by allowing them access so that they can make value Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville: My judgments. This is a freedom of information issue and Lords, when I spoke previously I should have drawn I hope the Minister will be able to concede this your Lordships’ attention to my entry in the Register amendment. of Interests as a district councillor of South Somerset District Council and as a vice-president of the Local I turn now to Amendments 12, 13 and 14. As already Government Association. said, it is important that all those who are operating in I will speak, in the first instance, to Amendment 9. I the private housing market are able to provide for and will then speak to Amendments 10, 12, 13 and 14. On assist their tenants to have a secure and untroubled Amendment 9, it is only fair and proper that those home. It is to no one’s advantage for people to be who have the prospect of a banning order being continually seeking alternative accommodation; to be imposed on them should have the right of appeal. My moving within an area where they are currently living colleagues and I are happy with the process laid down or having to move to a different area is stressful. This for dealing with appeals, with one exception. Both the is especially true if there are children involved. Disrupting landlord and his tenants, plus the local housing authority, a child’s education as they are forced to move schools will be in some uncertainty during the appeal process. is very harmful and will set back their educational Uncertainty leads to stress, and this will be extremely progress. unwelcome for tenants, who are already fraught because It is essential that tenants are able to access the of the situation in which they find themselves. The register of rogue landlords so that, having moved from state of their accommodation may be less than we one such landlord, they do not fall foul of another would wish, and they may have been threatened. They operating in a similar type of accommodation. Let us will want their ordeal to be finalised as quickly as not forget that the people and families looking for the 2165 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2166

[BARONESS BAKEWELL OF HARDINGTON MANDEVILLE] There is therefore a great deal to be said for accommodation which is likely to be provided by strengthening the role of local authorities in overseeing those on the register will have little choice because of the sector, and also in fulfilling this part of the Bill, in their straitened circumstances. However, like everyone allowing and promoting tenants’ access to information else, they deserve to be protected from exploitation. about the owners of the properties that they seek to As I have already indicated, the information on rent. Anything that can be done to bring pressure to rogue landlords is likely to already be in the public bear on such owners to behave responsibly is welcome, domain through court proceedings and other avenues. and I hope the Minister will feel able to accede to the I urge the Minister to consider these amendments and amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, and to my respond positively to them. I beg to move. own amendment relating to the consequences with regard to HMO licensing. Lord Beecham: My Lords, I support the amendments moved by the noble Baroness. I have one query about Lord Tope (LD): My Lords, my noble friend Lady Amendment 12, which removes a requirement for Bakewell spoke to these amendments fully and explained information disclosed from the database to be anonymous. them very well, and we all wait with interest to hear It would be helpful if it were made clear that any the Minister’s response. We should recognise how information concerning a tenant would continue to be important the issues that they raise are. My name does anonymous. It is not clear whether there would be any not happen to appear on Amendment 9—I am not information about a tenant revealed or recorded but, quite sure why—but I certainly support it. We do need to be on the safe side, such a tenant should not have some sort of indication—I think 28 days is entirely his or her details revealed. That ought to remain right and appropriate—of how soon an appeal on guarded by anonymity. matters that are so important and sensitive for both This group of amendments addresses a large range the tenant and the landlord will be heard. We are only of issues designed to facilitate dealing with the problems too aware of other types of appeal that wait not just occasioned by rogue landlords. Amendment 15 specifically for months but for years. For an appeal to be heard bars any landlord on a database of rogue landlords within 28 days seems to me entirely reasonable. from obtaining a house in multiple occupation licence. The other amendments deal with another important It would be good to have that in the Bill. point: exactly who will have access to the information The background to this group and much of what in the database? Surely it must be right for the tenants we are discussing today in the Bill was set out recently to have a right of access to that information. Whether in disturbing statistics produced by Citizens Advice in it is appropriate to put that in the Bill or in the draft its response to the welcome funding by the Department regulations we wait to hear—but we have heard enough for Communities and Local Government to tackle the about the regulations already while debating this Bill, problem on the ground. and we think that it should be on the face of the Bill. I I am bound to report that a grant of £80,000 has hope that when the Minister replies she will, at the been received to be applied in the ward that I represent very least, agree with the point being made here. We on Newcastle City Council, in an area just half a mile can then argue about where the provision is to be away from the new properties that the noble Baroness placed. We look forward to the Minister’s reply; I hope visited recently. We got a selective licensing scheme for it will be a positive one, recognising the importance of that area—eventually; it was not easy to obtain. About these issues. a third of the landlords in the area were clearly not conforming to the requirements. I am glad that we Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I firmly support have received this funding to enable us, as a council, to Amendment 9, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady pursue matters. Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. It is a very sound amendment. 6pm Clause 29 refers to a power to include a person However, there are still too many properties in the convicted—that is, convicted in a court of law—of a hands of bad landlords who continue to fail to look banning order offence. Then it says in a subsection: after their properties, and indeed their tenants, properly. “A local housing authority in England may make an entry in Given the lengths to which councils have to go to the database in respect of a person who has, at least twice”— establish such schemes for selective licensing, this is not once, twice— particularly objectionable. The national picture is a “within a period of 12 months, received a financial penalty in cause for great concern. There are apparently 700,000 respect of a banning order offence committed at a time when the tenants—which probably means about 2 million people person was a residential landlord”. in all, if we add family members and the like—including We are talking here about a habitual offender. In 500,000 children, living in unsafe properties with exposed Clause 32 the Government set out what can be on the wiring, leaking roofs and even rat infestation. There database. Let us go through the list, because that list are some 740,000 rented homes that constitute a threat should be available to the general public for the reasons to the health of residents, and apparently 80,000 tenants set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, when are faced with threats of retaliatory eviction because she referred to freedom of information. First, there is they seek repairs. Again, that probably affects around the period for which the entry is to be maintained: why 200,000 people, with a particularly high proportion of should that not be available to the tenant or tenants? properties in London—some 14%, it is said—falling Details of properties owned, let or managed by the into this category. This especially affects residents person: why should they not be in the public domain from a BAME background. when the matter has been dealt with in the courts? 2167 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2168

Details of a banning order offence of which the person be banned from operating their business, but banning has been convicted in a court of law: why should that orders would be sought for the very worst or repeat information not be made available to the tenant? offenders. Banning order offences will be defined in Details of any banning orders made against the person, secondary legislation but are likely to include a serious whether or not still in force: why should tenants not offence. This is where an offender has been convicted know the background of their prospective landlords? in the Crown Court of an offence involving fraud, Also on the list are “details of financial penalties” drugs, sexual assault or violence that is committed in, received by the person. or in relation to, a property that is owned or managed Finally, I return to the first item in the list: the by the offender or which involves, or was perpetrated person’s address or other contact details. One would against, persons occupying such a property. It would have thought that a tenant should at least have the also include any serious offence involving violence right to know who their prospective landlord is, where against the tenant by the landlord or property agent, they live, and their contact details. I put it to the and serious breaches of housing legislation. Minister that the Government are a little oversensitive Amendment 11 would allow tenants and prospective about this. They should reconsider this area and think tenants to petition their local housing authority to about what is in the public interest. Who is going to gain access to the database of rogue landlords and lose as a result of this? The local authority does not property agents. Doing so would effectively blacklist lose; the tenant does not lose; only the landlord who those landlords and agents on the database and put has been convicted of a criminal offence loses. I ask them out of business. This is not the intention of our the Minister to reconsider the position. legislation. The database aims to enable local authorities to keep track of rogue landlords and agents and target Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I shall their enforcement action more effectively. Where a speak to Amendment 16 in my name in relation to local authority believes a landlord or agent should be Clause 38. Amendment 16 would mean that for the prevented from renting out or managing property, it purposes of paragraph 17 of Schedule 23 to the Finance should seek a banning order. Act 2011, the database will be treated as being maintained Noble Lords, and particularly the noble Baroness, by the Secretary of State, although Clause 27 sets out Lady Bakewell, asked whether the public or tenants that local authorities have responsibility for maintaining will have access to the database. The database will its content. This will ensure that HMRC is able to hold details of landlords and property agents who access the database, using its powers under the Finance have been convicted of certain offences. Just because a Act 2011, so that it can use the data in discharge of its landlord or property agent is on a database does not tax functions when dealing with rogue landlords and mean that they are banned from letting out a property— property agents. that would require a banning order. Making the database I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of publicly available could raise data protection issues. Hardington Mandeville, for speaking to Amendment 9. However, the Secretary of State can give information While appeals, and not just appeals about entries on held on the database in an anonymised form for the database, should be dealt with without undue research, statistical or monitoring purposes. The noble delay, it is not appropriate to set out in primary Lord, Lord Beecham, asked about tenants’ details. legislation strict time limits for doing so, because it These will never be disclosed. The noble Baroness, may not be practical or reasonable to do so. The Lady Bakewell, also asked about the effect of putting tribunal has a wide range of powers to ensure that a landlord or property agent on the database. A database cases are dealt with fairly and justly. It can award costs will enable a local authority to keep track of the against vexatious litigants whose only purpose in appealing landlords or property agents who have been convicted is, for example, to delay their entry on the database or of a relevant offence and who may seek to move to a to cause further expense to the local housing authority. new area to avoid detection and attract new tenants. It It can also prioritise cases that it considers urgent and will also enable them to obtain details about other refuse adjournments when there is no good reason for rental properties owned by the landlord. In some cases, the request. In general, however, when the appeal is a local authority may decide to monitor a landlord or not vexatious in nature, how quickly it can be disposed property agent on the database before deciding whether of will ultimately depend on its complexity and other to apply for a banning order. factors, such as the representations that the parties intend to make. Indeed, other factors can lead to Information on the database will be made more delay, such as the illness of a party or a representative. widely available in an anonymised form. In addition, It would be manifestly unfair if representations could where tenants raise concerns about their landlords not be accepted outside 28 days when there is genuine failing to take action over property conditions, local and good reason for doing so because the law has said authorities can carry out an inspection, using the that the appeal must be heard within that timeframe, housing health and safety rating system introduced in regardless of circumstances. the Housing Act 2004, and take appropriate enforcement action. I turn to Amendment 10. Landlords and property agents included on the database will have either been Where a local authority believes that a landlord or convicted of a banning order offence or received two property agent should be banned from being involved or more civil penalties, as an alternative to prosecution, in renting out or managing property, it should apply for serious breaches of housing legislation. I appreciate to the First-tier Tribunal for a banning order. Banning the feelings of noble Lords on this issue. It is not orders are intended to be used for those landlords and intended that all those included on the database should property agents who are particularly serious or prolific 2169 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2170

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] Lord Beecham: But the rogue landlord must be the offenders, and who represent a real risk to the health owner of the property; otherwise he would not be the and safety of prospective tenants. Local authorities landlord, presumably. have been provided with strong enforcement tools to ensure that, once a banning order has been made, it is Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville: My not breached by the offender. Lords, I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this Amendments 12, 13 and 14 would require the Secretary short debate. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, of State to make information on the database of rogue Lord Beecham, for mentioning the anonymising of landlords and property agents accessible to everyone tenants’ names on the list. It is very important that and provide that the purposes to which the data may their names should not be released. be put include the protection of tenants. As I have I cannot pretend that I am anything other than said, making the database publicly accessible would disappointed with the Minister’s response. It is very effectively drive anyone on the list out of business—which important that the appeals are heard in a timely manner is not the purpose of the database. and I think 28 days is a reasonable time in which to Finally, Amendment 15 would require local authorities hear an appeal. In other parts of the Bill we shall come to automatically bar landlords on the database of to issues of abandonment, where there are very definite rogue landlords from holding an HMO licence. As I timescales that people must abide by. So I find it have said previously, the purpose of the database is somewhat strange that we cannot have a timescale for not to ban landlords and property agents from operating. hearing the appeals. This may be something we wish The idea is to enable local authorities to monitor to return to on Report. rogue landlord activity and effectively target enforcement With regard to the list of landlords being anonymised action. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, mentioned and not released to tenants, I cannot see the point of retaliatory eviction. We legislated through the Deregulation holding a list if it is be anonymised. That seems Act 2015 to stop the practice of retaliatory eviction, a somewhat perverse. Tenants should have access to the move that has been much welcomed by Shelter. list and should be able to see whether their landlord is I hope I have explained enough to enable the noble on the database. I accept that rogue landlords will be Baroness to withdraw her amendment— on the database when they may not have a banning order. I understand that difference but, nevertheless, 6.15 pm these are not the kinds of landlords we wish to promote. The Minister has indicated that she does not wish to Lord Campbell-Savours: On government Amendment 16, drive rogue landlords out of business, but what of the I do not quite understand why HMRC would want to good landlords? There are hundreds and thousands of gather these data. Perhaps the Minister could explain. responsible landlords operating their properties for the benefit of their tenants and just one or two rogue Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, it is for landlords are in danger of giving other landlords a tax purposes—to enable the rogue landlords to fulfil very bad name. We should be able to name and shame their tax obligations. these rogue landlords. However, I understand the Minister’s view. It is Lord Campbell-Savours: I am not opposed to that possible that we may return to this but I will withdraw but are we saying that persons who are subject to the my amendment. legislation in terms of banning orders come under a separate reporting arrangement to the Revenue as Lord Beecham: May I revert to my Amendment 15 against the generality of landlords? about the HMO licence? I do not understand the logic of the Minister’s position. If a landlord is described as Baroness Williams of Trafford: I am sorry, could a rogue landlord and is on the database accordingly, the noble Lord please repeat what he just said? why should that not operate as a bar to obtaining a licence for a house of multiple occupation? Lord Campbell-Savours: Are we saying that there is a separate category for those landlords who would fall Baroness Williams of Trafford: Could the noble under the legislation in terms of banning orders as Lord repeat what he has just said? against the generality of landlords, who, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said, are pretty good people? Lord Beecham: Amendment 15 would prevent a landlord on the database of rogue landlords obtaining an HMO licence, which seems perfectly logical. The Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, it is the Minister appeared to reject the idea; I cannot think why. rogue landlords who are on the database. HMRC will If she cannot for the moment remember why she did, have access to that database. perhaps she could communicate her thoughts later.

Lord Beecham: Does it not already have access to Baroness Williams of Trafford: I rejected the the Land Registry and can therefore find out more amendment because the purpose of the database is quickly and more cheaply who the owner of a property is? not to ban landlords and property agents from operating but to enable local authorities to monitor rogue landlord Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, anyone activity. It is crucial to give local authorities the freedom can have access to the Land Registry but not everyone to make judgments regarding the licensing in their area, can have access to the database of rogue landlords. just as they do in other forms of licensing, so it does 2171 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2172 not necessarily follow that a rogue landlord should be (2) The scheme under subsection (1) shall— banned from holding an HMO licence. Although a (a) come into effect within 6 months of the passing of local authority may make the judgment that they this Act; and should be banned from having such a licence because (b) last at least one year and no longer than two years. of their activity, it does not necessarily follow. (3) The Secretary of State shall, within three months of the closing date of the scheme, lay before each House of Lord Campbell-Savours: I put it to the Minister— Parliament a report on the scheme under subsection (1), alongside any statement he thinks appropriate about the The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness extension of the Housing Ombudsman Scheme to the Andrews) (Lab): My Lords, is it your Lordships’ pleasure private rented sector. that the amendment be withdrawn? (4) The Secretary of State may by regulations extend the Amendment 9 withdrawn. powers of the Housing Ombudsman Scheme as set out in section 51 of and Schedule 2 to the Housing Act 1996, Debate on whether Clause 31 should stand part of the to cover disputes between tenants and private landlords Bill. throughout England.”

Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, on that matter, Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I had almost forgotten what I was going to ask, but it Amendment 17, which is in my name and that of my was this: if we can ban a doctor or a dentist for bad noble friend Lord Beecham, seeks to extend the services practice, why can we not ban a landlord? of the Housing Ombudsman to the entire private Baroness Williams of Trafford: The landlord who is rented sector. Following a successful pilot scheme in on a database of rogue landlords has not necessarily London, the Government decided to proceed in that been banned but may have had a civil penalty. So it is manner. Ombudsman services are available for a variety up to the local authority, when coming to a judgment of matters. They have proved highly effective and seek about an HMO licence and in the light of the information to resolve complaints having investigated the issues at that it has, whether that landlord will be banned from hand independently and in a less confrontational way holding one. It may decide on balance that he or she than proceedings in court can be. will be, because they are such a rogue, or they may At present, the Housing Ombudsman provides have had one civil penalty and it might therefore grant ombudsman services to housing organisations that are him or her a licence. registered with it. The service is free, independent and impartial. It has two classes of membership: a mandatory Clause 31 agreed. membership, which includes all bodies registered with Clauses 32 to 36 agreed. the Homes and Communities Agency; and a voluntary membership, which includes landlords and letting agents Clause 37: Access to database in the private rented sector who want to provide a good service to their tenants and who also have, and Amendments 10 and 11 not moved. wish to retain, their good reputation. Clause 37 agreed. My amendment seeks to extend the service on a trial basis to cover all disputes between landlords and Clause 38: Use of information in database tenants in the private sector in the Greater London Amendments 12 to 15 not moved. area. It provides that the trial would last for between six and 12 months and that subsequently, within three months of the ending of the trial period, a report must Amendment 16 be laid before Parliament with any statement the Secretary Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford of State thinks appropriate about the extension of the 16: Page 18, line 21, at end insert— scheme. That could be anything from welcoming the “(5) For the purposes of paragraph 17 of Schedule 23 to the trial and extending the scheme to concluding that it Finance Act 2011 (which relates to HMRC data- was not a success and ending it there. The Secretary of gathering powers), the database is to be treated as being State has complete flexibility in this regard. If it is maintained by the Secretary of State.” deemed to have been a success, we have also included Amendment 16 agreed. in subsection (4) of the proposed new clause the power to extend the scheme to cover the whole private rented Clause 38, as amended, agreed. sector in England. This is a sensible and proportionate Clauses 39 to 51 agreed. measure and amendment, which I hope will receive a positive response. I beg to move. Amendment 17 Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Lord Foster of Bath: My Lords, we are being asked in this amendment whether we think there is a need for 17: After Clause 51, insert the following new Clause— further protection for tenants in the private rented “Extension of the Housing Ombudsman to cover the private sector. I suspect that I can guess the Minister’s response, rented sector although I hope I will be proved wrong. The Minister (1) The Secretary of State shall by regulations introduce will point out that there is already a large amount of a scheme to extend the Housing Ombudsman Scheme, as set out in section 51 of and Schedule 2 to the Housing legislation to protect us from—I hesitate to use the Act 1996, to cover disputes between tenants and private phrase—“rogue landlords”and that further strengthening landlords relating to properties within the area covered of that is to come, and that there is protection as by the Greater London Authority. regards retaliatory eviction against people who run 2173 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2174

[LORD FOSTER OF BATH] a statutory code, and I am aware that there have been “beds in sheds”. The Government’s own website lists a discussions within government about the possibility of large number of tenants’ rights, which include the doing that. Have those discussions taken place and are rights to, the Government likely to come forward with a proposal “live in a property that’s safe and in a good state of repair”, to make it statutory? If so, we would have a fairly to have your deposit protected, to, powerful tool instead of the proposal in the amendment “challenge excessively high charges, know who your landlord is, before us. We have got pretty clear evidence that, live in the property undisturbed, see an Energy Performance unless the code is made statutory, with all the appropriate Certificate … be protected from unfair eviction and unfair rent”, ways of making it work in that state, there will be and to have a written agreement if the tenancy term is concerns about whether the many forms of protection fixed for more than three years. The Minister will no are collectively sufficient. doubt point out, rightly, that some councils already However, before I can be finally persuaded that this have an accreditation scheme; she will point to the is the right way to proceed, I would be grateful if excellent Private Rented Sector Code of Practice that was the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, clarified some aspects developed on behalf of the Government by the Royal of the proposal, as the Committee will need to have Institution of Chartered Surveyors back in 2014. She confidence that there is in fact going to be a Housing may talk about the trade bodies that many residential Ombudsman as such. The Committee will be aware that landlords associations have, and as a fallback she will the Government recently consulted on the idea of having also of course refer, rightly, to the county court mediation a single public sector ombudsman, bringing together service. the Housing Ombudsman with the Parliamentary and On first sight, given that long list, it may appear Health Service Ombudsman and the Local Government that there is no need for further protection for tenants Ombudsman services. During that consultation, there in the private rented sector. However, noble Lords will was a loud outcry from many of the respondents about be aware that in a number of the areas I have referred the idea of incorporating the Housing Ombudsman to there are ongoing problems. For example, after the within a single public sector ombudsman. I was pleased list of rights that appear on the Government’s website, that the Government made it clear in their response to a section then tells you what to do if you feel that you the consultation that they intend to start by combining are not able to exercise those rights. It suggests that the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman you should first complain to the landlord; failing that, and the Local Government Ombudsman, and not you should complain to one of the recently set up include within that the Housing Ombudsman. However, “designated persons”—that is, an MP, a councillor or rather ominously, the consultation response goes on to one of the various tenant panels; and finally, if all that say that they will establish that combination “in the fails, you should go to your local council. Notwithstanding first instance”, providing, the responsibilities in some areas—but not all—that “a framework that allows others to join over time”. local councils have, as most noble Lords will be aware, many councils simply do not have the resources and The Committee will be interested to hear from the expertise sufficiently to deal with the wide-ranging Minister the Government’s thinking on the slightly types of complaints that will and do come forward. longer-term situation for the Housing Ombudsman. The county court mediation process has of course Clearly, if it is going to change, that will create a been successfully used on a number of occasions, but problem for this amendment. there is a problem, due to various legal arguments as There is also the issue of the resources needed to to whether private sector landlords are defined as operate the scheme proposed in the amendment. At “suppliers”. Can the Minister tell us whether, if landlords the moment, the Housing Ombudsman deals with roughly are not defined as suppliers, that particular problem 5 million housing units, with a staff of 55 people. In means they will fall outside the remit of that mediation the last financial year, they have seen a 28% increase in service? the number of complaints, so there is quite a lot of pressure on them, although they have helped to achieve 6.30 pm a solution to that by providing a lot of support and help Even though the private rented sector code of practice —on which I congratulate them—for local resolution. is excellent, it has no teeth. Earlier this morning I But if we take the current figure of 5 million housing talked to somebody at the Residential Landlords units and add a further 3 million, which is roughly Association, which is one of the signatories to that what would be required, clearly, that would place a code of practice. It says that although it is a signatory, significant additional load on the Housing Ombudsman. it has no ability to enforce it. It is of course also worth I would be interested to know what solution the reflecting that the vast majority of the maybe 2 million proponents of the amendment have thought of for landlords are not even signatories to the code. On that funding it. point, nobody is entirely sure what the figure is for the The Housing Ombudsman is funded by levying a number of private sector landlords, whether in England charge per housing unit. Because of increased efficiency or across the whole of the country. Can the Minister the ombudsman has been able to reduce that charge, help? I have looked everywhere to try to get a figure which is now—this may surprise many noble Lords— but cannot get any clear, precise figure from anywhere down to just 96p per individual housing unit. If we added beyond that figure of around 2 million. to the scheme all private rented sector landlords, the There are a number of ways we could move forward vast majority—72%—of whom have only one property, instead of accepting this amendment. The most effective and if the funding regime remained the same, in order is to make the code of practice to which I have referred to collect an appropriate amount of money, the Housing 2175 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2176

Ombudsman would have to find a mechanism for principle of having ombudsman services. They save having raising 96p from something like 1.5 million individuals. to go to court, spending a lot of money and being at Clearly, that does not make a great deal of sense. loggerheads for longer. If one can resolve matters through I have some concerns about some of the details, but the mediation services that, in effect, an ombudsman broadly, I think the level of protection for tenants in provides, it can be beneficial to everyone. I am also the private rented sector is still not strong enough. We familiar with the Housing Ombudsman scheme because need to do something. We have before us one possible it is the body to which people take their complaints if solution. The alternative could be to make the code they are tenants of housing associations and local statutory. I look forward with great interest to the authorities. I have had responsibility for housing Minister’s response to this proposition. associations and, like the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, I have had judgments against my organisation for, Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, this is an hopefully, rather trivial matters. The Housing Ombudsman interesting proposal and if it is introduced, leaseholders has a very good reputation and is doing a very good too should be included. There are 6 million leaseholders, job. It is sorting out many complaints and provides a who in the past could have gone to a leasehold valuation good model for ombudsman-ery. tribunal for a very reasonable cost, but who now have However, in the circumstances of both the Property to go to the First-tier Tribunal, which is much more Ombudsman, who looks after complaints from estate expensive. There are many things that could be resolved agents, letting and managing agents and corporate by applying the ombudsman scheme. I would like to bodies, and the current Housing Ombudsman scheme, hear more about how this would work, and also—perhaps which looks after the mostly responsible local authorities at a later stage in the Bill—to look at the possibility of and housing associations, one is in completely different including leasehold properties. territory to the 1.8 million individual private landlords. I see severe practical difficulties in applying the principles Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab): My Lords, I of ombudsman-ery—which require you to deal with a support the amendment, because I think there is a real corporate entity, a body whose reputation needs protecting issue here. Speaking as a former local authority leader— and who has a great deal to lose from the process—to many people in this House are either former or current the 1.8 million individual landlords, which, I say to the local authority leaders—I had three ombudsman noble Lord, Lord Foster, is perhaps the current figure, judgments against me, of which two were correct and 72% of whom have just one property. one, in my view, was not. That was over about 25 years, It is extremely expensive if one gets bogged down in and most were associated with planning issues. an individual dispute. Cases which involve the Property Throughout all my ombudsman experience, both in Ombudsman in dealing with disputes between agents this sector and in the health service, the issues were and tenants who complain to us can sometimes go on between the ombudsman service and a publicly for a very long time. However, the agents will try to get accountable body, such as a local authority or a health matters sorted: they will have their own complaints authority, in which there were members concerned to procedures and will work things through. They will maintain the reputation of that authority, and to show a willingness to go with this and, at the end of it, respond, if not precisely to the ombudsman’s proposals— when we make an award—if we do make an award— the ombudsman had no enforcement powers—at least against the agent, then the agent will pay up. We have in a positive way. The ombudsman had no powers to sanctions if they do not. make us do anything, but people would respond positively by trying to address the problem and see whether it When dealing with individual landlords, who was largely procedural or whether policy needed to be sometimes do not have an office or an address and do changed in some substantial way. That was because not reply, these disputes can run and run and be the ombudsman was overseeing a public organisation extremely expensive to administer. This, I am afraid, is that had a reputation, with trustees, councillors and so a criticism of having a system which has 1.8 million on, who were accountable for their decisions in public, landlords looking after the properties. The practical in the press. difficulties of simply applying the ombudsman system If the Minister cannot support an amendment like to all private landlords are enormous. I suggest that if Amendment 17, I hope that she will tell us how she one were to have a pilot scheme to test out whether would apply that same degree of scrutiny and enforcement one can apply ombudsman principles to this sector, it to rulings against rogue landlords. There is a real issue would be a good idea to go with the corporate entities here. Local authorities will respond, even if they cannot first. These landlords are private companies and have go all the way, but a private individual, knowing that status. There is therefore an opportunity for legal the ombudsman has no statutory powers of enforcing processes to be brought into play if they do not pay up a decision, may decide to go in a different direction on awards and so on. and weather hostile criticism. Can the Minister help us Forget the great mass of individuals for the moment by telling us in what ways the Government would because they could be expensive. I am afraid 96p per ensure that the naming and shaming effect of ombudsman landlord will not do it because if tenants and landlords practice could apply in the private sector? get into a dispute it can be ongoing. Even when one is half-way through trying to fix a dispute the landlord/tenant Lord Best (CB): My Lords, I declare my interest as relationship can break down again on a new issue and the chair of the council of the Property Ombudsman, the case could run and run. It is a big undertaking. and so I am on familiar ground. As chairman of an So, to start with, I would stick with the corporate ombudsman scheme, I am very much in favour of the entities. 2177 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2178

[LORD BEST] a minimum and having a level playing field so that The Housing Ombudsman scheme is able to take good landlords are not undercut by less reputable on board corporate players. Some of the good landlords ones. we have are already in membership of the Housing To support that objective, the Government have Ombudsman scheme on a voluntary basis. If one was introduced a number of measures, as the noble Lord, seeking to extend the principles of ombudsman services, Lord Foster, said, to drive up standards across the the first step would be to make this compulsory, as it is board, including: publishing How to Rent and other for housing associations and local authorities. Corporate guides for tenants; developing a model tenancy agreement bodies which are landlords should have somewhere to for use by landlords and tenants; requiring letting go. As with when we complain about our electricity, agents to display their fees in a prominent place so that telephones or anything else, there should be a service. I prospective tenants will always know from the outset suggest a pilot should start there, but it should be a how much they will be charged; and promoting voluntary little less ambitious than the scheme suggested in the accreditation schemes and the industry-wide code of amendment which, in many ways, is going in the right practice. direction. In answer to the question about making the code of practice statutory, we have no plans to do so because it 6.45 pm is currently working well and we do not want to add Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): My Lords, I further burdens. In relation to the Housing Ombudsman, thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for moving we have no plans at this stage to merge it into a single Amendment 17, which seeks to place into the Bill a ombudsman service because the Housing Ombudsman power to widen the Housing Ombudsman’s role to performs a specific role and needs to retain its cover private sector housing and disputes between independence. tenants and private landlords. As the noble Lord said, I hope that on the basis of this explanation the private sector landlords can already join the Housing noble Lord will withdraw his amendment. Ombudsman scheme on a voluntary basis. Indeed, many landlords who wish to assure their tenants of Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I thank all the quality of their services have already done so. noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I The Government’s interest is in protecting tenants take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Foster of Bath, and provisions elsewhere in the Bill already address made about the funding mechanism. We certainly need this; for example, tenants whose landlords have failed to devise a system that collects the fee with another to carry out repairs can complain to their local authority, charge or over a longer period, although, as the noble and through the Bill the Government are strengthening Lord, Lord Best, said, there are already private landlords the powers of local authorities to deal with landlords who have signed up to the scheme and pay their who do not comply with the law. contribution to be part of this valuable service. We do not wish to introduce unnecessary regulation That is also why our amendment put forward a on landlords or institute a national register, which pilot scheme in only one part of the country—London. would be the ultimate effect of this amendment since, At the end of the scheme, that would be evaluated by to make it work, all landlords would be required the Secretary of State and a report would be laid to sign up to the scheme. Despite the excellent work of before Parliament; at that point the scheme might have the Housing Ombudsman in resolving complaints, we been a great success and could be extended further or think that for private landlords membership of the might not have worked—or somewhere in between. scheme should remain voluntary, although we encourage We gave all options to the Secretary of State to move landlords to sign up. forward. Where private landlords have signed up voluntarily, We should not forget that, in many of the areas that they are signalling to their tenants that they are committed I outlined in which people have protections, virtually to a high level of service and can be expected to no legal aid is available now for these things. The comply with any determination. Were they to be required protections are there, but they do not have the legal to sign up, we might not see the same level of engagement aid to ensure those protections. With that, though, I with the process or level of compliance, as the noble beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Lord, Lord Best, intimated, and determinations would Amendment 17 withdrawn. not be enforceable. We would risk increasing the number of complaints and the associated costs, while the Clauses 52 to 54 agreed. tenants of reluctant landlords might not see the benefit. The measures in the Bill are focused on tackling Amendment 18 rogue landlords, but we must remember that the majority Moved by Lord Beecham of landlords in the private sector provide good-quality 18: After Clause 54, insert the following new Clause— and well-managed accommodation. We know that “Accreditation and licensing for private landlords 84% of private renters are satisfied with their Local authorities shall be required to operate an accreditation accommodation and stay in their homes for an average and licensing scheme for private landlords.” of three and a half years. The Government want to support and encourage good landlords so that they Lord Beecham: My Lords, I may not be visible, become more professional and continue to provide but I rise to move Amendment 18 and speak to good-quality rented accommodation. Part of that Amendment 27 in this group. Amendment 18 is about approach involves ensuring that the regulatory framework local authorities operating an accreditation and licensing is appropriate and proportionate, keeping red tape to scheme for private landlords and it would require local 2179 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2180 authorities to do it. A number already make this part interests. It is in everybody’s interest that progress of their work. In Leeds it has been particularly successful, along the lines of these two amendments should be with 332 landlords accredited, providing nearly 15,000 made. I beg to move. bed spaces. In a parallel scheme with the universities, some 20,000 bed spaces are covered by an accreditation Lord Flight (Con): My Lords, I declare my interests scheme—so near enough 35,000 people are covered by as set out in the register, and will speak to Amendment 21, such schemes. There is expense involved in running whose objectives I trust will command broad support. them and, in the present financial climate, it would be These are, in essence, to provide practical and low-cost difficult for local authorities to progress the proposal measures to enforce existing laws to protect tenants in this amendment, unless there were government backing from criminal landlords. If measures along the lines of in the form of some funding. As I have already indicated, this proposed new clause are adopted, I also believe some funding is currently available. My own authority they would avoid the need for new regulations. has benefited from it and, no doubt, others have too. Perhaps the Minister can clarify the position but I suspect The private rented sector has already become larger that this has so far been something of an experiment than the social rented sector, and PricewaterhouseCoopers to see how effective such investment might be. If these estimate that, by 2025, 25% of UK households will be schemes are proving successful, I hope the Government private rented homes. Such large increases argue strongly will look at extending the programme elsewhere. for greater scrutiny of how the sector operates. One of the main reasons for a lack of effective enforcement of Amendment 27 is of a different kind. It would create existing laws is that there is no clear and systemic way a register of all private landlords and privately rented of identifying the landlord of a property and how they properties, to be maintained by local authorities. It simply can be contacted. This needs to be readily available, if registers where properties are so that local authorities both the enforcement of existing regulations and the know which properties are rented out and who the taxation of landlords are to be effective. owners are. They can then use that information to There are also a number of other government policies inform landlords of their duties under housing legislation which will work only if there is a way of knowing how and under the recent, rather difficult requirements of to contact landlords. For example, the Government’s right- immigration legislation, which, I suspect, is a considerable to-rent scheme—making landlords legally responsible burden on landlords. It is also good property management for checking the immigration status of their tenants— practice. needs the name and contact details of the landlord to be readily available for the Home Office to tell a The noble Baroness and I have not exactly crossed landlord if a tenant is in the country illegally. swords, but we have occasionally discussed the progress Within the Housing and Planning Bill, how can of the duty on owners to provide carbon monoxide alarms government expect their proposed rogue landlord database in their properties. I speak with some feeling about this, to work if there is no systemic way of identifying such since my own carbon monoxide alarm has fallen down landlords? How can HMRC seek to claim tax for three times in the last couple of weeks and I cannot which a landlord may be liable if there is no ready way persuade it to stay in position. Better organised people of finding him? no doubt can—and they certainly should when they The case for a clear and systematic way of identifying are letting out properties. The programme that the landlords is, I suggest, compelling. A national register Government launched in the summer was done without of landlords has been suggested as a solution to this very much publicity or very much time. I understand that issue. The problem is that it would be only the good the Government intend to review matters only several landlords who readily identified themselves. What months into the current year. If the Government —or, landlord, flouting his legal obligations, would voluntarily more specifically, local authorities—knew which were come forward to make himself known? rented properties, they could direct the publicity to known landlords, rather than in general terms through In 2014, a report on the regulation of private rented the media. They could do this potentially in other contexts. housing was produced by Michael Ball, professor of It would be a very useful tool in assisting the good urban and property economics at Reading University. management of properties by responsible landlords. He noted that such registration schemes fall back on Otherwise, they may simply not come across the publicity the threat of penalties for those who fail to register to around carbon monoxide or smoke alarms, for example. try to ensure that higher numbers do so, but that such There is the potential here for the Government to threats are unlikely to impress the worst landlords create a situation in which councils and landlords can because of the more draconian penalties they would work together in the interests of tenants and, ultimately, be likely to face if their poor practices were found out. landlords. It is not much use to a landlord having a They are thus unlikely to co-operate. property that has been exposed to fire or other damage, Ministers have claimed that the Bill already includes let alone the dreadful consequences of carbon monoxide measures that will allow local authorities to access poisoning. information held by tenancy deposit schemes to assist with the enforcement of regulation. This is certainly a I hope that the noble Baroness will look sympathetically welcome move to better use the data which are already at both these suggestions. They are designed to make available. However, councils will be expected to pay to sure that standards are maintained and to assist good access such information, which may deter many owners to carry on responsibly the business in which authorities. Also, the measure would not help local they are engaged and thereby to protect their tenants. authorities find landlords who do not abide by their Ultimately, of course, it also protects their own property legal obligations as they relate to tenancy deposit 2181 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2182

[LORD FLIGHT] be given prescribed information as well as the tenant, schemes. Recent research has found almost 300,000 and such a person is known as the relevant person. Failure landlords still not complying with deposit protection to give the prescribed information leads to financial rules. penalties and an inability for the landlord to recover The solution is, in essence, to ask the tenant. That is possession of their property. There is little need for this what this amendment is about. Something similar was requirement, as the arrangement between the tenant promoted by Dame Angela Watkinson MP, in the and the relevant person is a private one that the other place. The amendment would make it compulsory landlord is not required to know about, despite being for local authorities to ask tenants to provide on their required to provide the relevant person with information. council tax registration forms details of the property’s The provision can be forgotten about easily, thus landlord or managing agent. Thus collected, the creating a needless trap for landlords, who are potentially information should then assist local authorities to hostage to unscrupulous tenants entering into such enforce all regulations pertaining to the private rented agreements and then seeking to conceal it from their sector as well as support other government policies, landlord, who is left in breach of their obligation. such as the right to rent and the rogue landlords Amendment 25 is about providing electronic database, which require knowing where landlords can information— be contacted. Local authorities would also have an up-to-date picture of the size of the private rented Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I am grateful to the market in their area, enabling better evidence-based noble Lord for giving way. I understood that policy. It could also be used as an invaluable tool to Amendments 24 and 25 were in the 11th group, but communicate with landlords. perhaps I missed some earlier realignment of amendments. Lord Flight: The noble Baroness is entirely correct. 7pm That is why I asked the indulgence of the Committee Tenants are already legally entitled to information quickly to address them now. That is for two reasons: about their landlord, so landlords will find it difficult first, they relate to Amendment 21 and, secondly, as to prevent tenants identifying them. Where the tenant I have given notice, I may not be able to be here when does not hold information on the owner of a property, they are called later, for some particular personal reasons. they could provide details of the managing agent. If either the landlord or managing agent is not identified Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: No, I fear we must by a tenant, this would send a clear message to the stick with the group of amendments that we have. relevant local authority that further investigation was appropriate. In some cases, there may be legitimate Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I am sorry to be a reason for the omission, but it is likely that criminal misery on this, but it is rather difficult because, when landlords will do what they can to remain hidden. In we get to that point in the debate, we will not be able to such cases, the tenanted address can then be checked debate the amendments. They are quite some distance against the Land Registry database and the owner away; they would have needed to be grouped. identified. This approach would provide local authorities with the intelligence to target their limited enforcement Lord Flight: I am bound by that judgment, but I did resources on the relevant properties and landlords. ask the Whips’ Office and was given permission so to do. Ministers have argued that local authorities already have the power to collect such information on council Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I am not sure tax forms but, crucially, this is not compulsory and that the Whips’ Office has jurisdiction in these matters. few authorities are aware of their power. As a result, The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord the DCLG knows of only a handful of councils that Flight, deals with a local authority’s arrangements for use the power. In some local authorities, environmental gathering council tax payments and business rates. health officers who would like to collect this information However, there is another very important form of are blocked by council tax officers who do not want to taxation when discussing these matters, which is taxes make changes to their forms, or believe that this is an raised by the Inland Revenue—that is my explicit issue of data protection. Rather, local authorities are interest in Amendment 16, as spoken to by the noble using bureaucratic and expensive licensing schemes. Baroness. We now have a booming rental market in As with a national register proposal, all these do is the United Kingdom, with programmes on television identify responsible landlords who register and drive promoting buy to rent and organisations issuing leaflets up costs. and sending them to people’s homes explaining the A system to collect data through council tax returns benefits of buy-to-rent arrangements. A lot of people has a far lower cost, as it uses existing processing should be paying taxes on rental income. mechanisms and is a lighter-touch approach for good Take a flat in London with two bedrooms, costing landlords. The proposal is that the amendment’s provision £500 a week or £25,000 a year. There will be many should be applied universally across all local authorities. examples in London of people gathering in very With your Lordships’ indulgence, I shall briefly substantial rents, even on just one property, who through address Amendments 24 and 25, which I tabled with some means or another are simply not declaring it to Amendment 21. Amendment 24 provides for the relevant the Inland Revenue. Any system, including the system person concept to be removed on the grounds that it is promoted by the noble Lord, Lord Flight, would be confusing and gives little or no protection to tenants. helpful in itself, but the system proposed by my noble When someone other than the tenant contributes to or friend, of a mandatory register of all private landlords, pays in full the deposit for a home, they are required to would certainly be very helpful in enabling the HMRC— 2183 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2184 which I keep referring to as the Inland Revenue, being have to legislate on the Government’s behalf. Registers a bit old-fashioned about these matters—to identify of private landlords are going to be required for a those people who should be paying tax on their rental number of varied purposes, which have been discussed income. The Inland Revenue are missing a trick here, around the Committee today. because I suspect that there are probably billions in unpaid taxes on rentals which are not declared to the Earl Cathcart (Con): My Lords, I should declare Revenue. that I am a landlord. I support Amendment 21, tabled by my noble friend Lord Flight. This is a bit of a Lord Greaves: My Lords, I have Amendment 33A hobbyhorse of mine, and I raised this exact solution in in this group. I do not want to say too much but give a Question last summer, when I said: general support to the two amendments spoken to by “One of the problems is not knowing who the landlords are. the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, which tackle the question Some suggest that there ought to be a national register of landlords, of the register from opposite ends but which are but the good ones might register while the bad ones will not mutually complementary, as far as I can see—there bother and thus remain below the radar. Surely a better way is if are two different purposes but both would be desirable. all new tenants, who are required by law to complete a council tax There are two points in this amendment. registration form, put on that form the name, address and contact details of their landlords; then, councils would build up over time First, it is our view that wherever possible, local a complete picture of all the landlords in their area”.—[Official authorities should have discretion over what they do, Report, 23/6/15; cols. 1467-68.] and therefore this question of whether a local register I raised the point again at a later date, but that, too, of private landlords should be set up and collected fell on stony ground. My noble friend the Minister should be a matter for the local authority concerned. then kindly arranged a meeting with Brandon Lewis, For all the reasons put forward by the noble Lord, the Housing Minister, and all three of us agreed that it Lord Beecham, and indeed to a degree by the noble was a jolly good idea—until an official put a spoke in Lord, Lord Flight—as well as those in the very interesting the wheel by suggesting that such a measure would put contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- a burden on local authorities. Quite what that burden Savours, which bring in a different dimension altogether—I would be I do not know. It must be in local authorities’ suspect that most authorities would want to do it, interests to know who all the landlords in their area because of the value there would be. However, the real are—the good and the bad. I understand that, as my reason we would like to see it is for local housing purposes, noble friend said, some local authorities already require to enable a local authority to maintain proper scrutiny this information on their council tax registration forms. over the private rented sector in its area and to more So surely this is best practice, not a burden. easily take action when action is required. My amendment There are numerous occasions when the Government is a statement against “one size fits all”-ism to some need to contact landlords, but cannot do so because extent, but if the Government were minded to set up they do not know who they all are. We heard from the the kind of register that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that the Smoke and Carbon is proposing, and it were compulsory for all local Monoxide Alarm (England) Regulations allowed only authorities, I do not think we would squeal too much. two weeks for landlords to comply, but the Government Secondly, it seems to us that a register ought to pay could not write to the landlords, so how on earth for itself. An ordinary register would not be terribly could they comply on time? We also heard from my expensive to run, and it ought to pay for itself rather noble friend Lord Flight about the provisions in the than requiring further contributions from local authorities. Immigration Bill legally requiring landlords to monitor Those are the two reasons for my amendment. whether their tenants are legally allowed to rent in this I listened carefully to the contribution of the noble country. I wholeheartedly support my noble friend’s Lord, Lord Flight. I am not sure that the council tax amendment. I shall not go over all his arguments, but I register as such would be a particularly efficient way to hope that the Minister will agree to look at this again. do this, since as I understand it, people only really register for council tax in the sort of sense he is talking 7.15 pm about when they are new residents in a property. Over a period of time, they might well provide the information Lord O’Shaughnessy (Con): My Lords, I register my he wants, but in the short run I do not think they concern about Amendments 18, 27 and 33A because would, because people simply pay the bills they get of the unintended impact of the regulation that I each year rather than filling a form in to register again believe they would introduce. afresh each year. No doubt these are details which It is worth reflecting once again on the reasons could be discussed. behind the Bill: we have too little housing in this country, it is too expensive and is not of a high enough Lord Flight: I think I need to respond to that. Yes, it quality. To address this crisis we need to generate is correct that this would essentially be when a new radically greater investment in housing. I think everyone residence starts, but there could be a simple form that in the Committee agrees with that. That investment went out with regular council tax demands. must come from government and the private sector. Several noble Lords have already commented on the Lord Greaves: Indeed, but it would not be compulsory growing role of the private rental sector. For better or to send it back—or perhaps it would if the legislation worse, we now have 4.4 million households in private said that it was. Equally, it might be more efficient to rented accommodation—the second highest tenancy do it with the electoral register. I do not know, but I after ownership. Earlier, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, am sure it could be done. However, there is a growing talked about an explosion of private rental housing. I consensus on this, and sooner or later Parliament will welcome this in its own terms because we will simply 2185 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2186

[LORD O’SHAUGHNESSY] prospective tenants might get access to information on not get the housing we need without the billions—indeed, landlords who were signed up to a reputable body with trillions—of pounds of investable money that is sitting established standards that it imposed on its members, in pension funds and other investment funds. and with current and valid membership of a dispute It is also worth remembering that we have a public resolution and redress scheme. I am told that there is debt of 80% of GDP and a budget deficit, so private no such facility. My thought was to bring out the best sector funding is essential to meeting our housing and to lead from the front with the positives rather need. Whenever you talk to private pension fund and than try to deal with the negatives and, in so doing, investment fund managers about investing in housing, squeeze out those rogues we have heard about. It was you find that it is the complexity of the product that suggested to me by a residential managing agent of my puts them off. We must be very wary about increasing acquaintance that it would be a bit like Checkatrade that complexity. or TripAdvisor, particularly if it had user or customer— What are the conditions needed to encourage this that is, tenant—feedback built into the system. However, investment? Clearly, any investment needs to look for I cannot see that that sort of thing can work by an economic return. I think we all agree that that is compulsion. available in the housing sector. We need a quick and I am not an advocate of a compulsory scheme, as simplified planning system—we are not dealing with proposed by noble Lords in some of the amendments. that part of the Bill today but will do so—and a low It would have large costs; it would be readily circumvented, regulatory burden for the non-rogue landlords. It is on especially by the rogues; and it would suffer from this last item that these amendments are problematic. a measure of disregard through ignorance among the I totally understand their intention but believe that 1.5 million one-unit property landlords. I tend, therefore, they will provide another barrier to entry for potentially towards the solution of the noble Lord, Lord Flight, good landlords. but, again, with some caveats. I would particularly like My noble friends Lord Flight and Lord Cathcart to know what proposed new paragraph 27A(2)(a) talked about the fact that licensing schemes will tend means in terms of the word “category”, and, with to attract good landlords and not capture the bad ones. apologies to him, where Airbnb fits into the framework. For that reason, a mandatory licensing and accreditation The Government have already moved to facilitate this scheme—let alone the charging of fees, as suggested trend, which may be here today and gone tomorrow. by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves—would potentially How, therefore, do you keep track of that as a “category” discourage investors and raise the costs of housing in terms of art? A holiday let today may be an assured while also increasing the burden on local authorities. shorthold tenancy tomorrow, or vice versa. I see great Surely this is not the way forward to generate the practical problems in this regard. housing that we need. There is, however, another problem about candid What we need, of course, are greater powers to crack declaration, if one is going down this road. How down on rogue landlords—exactly what we discussed frequently, given this quite rapid churn in the system, earlier today—a proportionate response to the problem do you have to trawl for the information to ensure that rather than a blanket response. As we discussed—and it is bang up to date? What happens when something will continue to discuss—these are well provided for in that has planning consent for, for example, holiday lets the Bill, with great agreement across the House. So the turns out to be on an 18-month assured shorthold tenancy, discussion of voluntary arrangements— potentially in breach of planning control? For that matter, what happens when it operates in the other direction? Lord Greaves: I do not understand how a simple act There could be issues to do with planning or potential of telling the council that you are the owner of a breach of private contract, and I wonder who gets to property is a huge regulatory burden. But putting that see and use the information garnered by this process. on one side, how is a council supposed to crack down There is quite a quite dangerous mix of stuff here, on a rogue landlord if it does not know who owns the with all sorts of people coming in with different motives. property? The truth is that, over many years, housing has become commoditised. It has gone beyond being the roof over Lord O’Shaughnessy: That is a perfectly good question. your head and the security for your family; it is now an I was going to end by talking about the voluntary investment vehicle, a pension pot and a place to park a arrangements that have been discussed in both this significant sum safely where you can manage it and see area of registration and with the Housing Ombudsman. what is happening, as opposed to subcontracting it to However, the amendment of my noble friend Lord somebody who manages portfolios on the stock exchange, Flight points to a simpler, lower-impact and more where you may have less control. That brings all sorts elegant way of gaining the information that we are of different motivations and methods of managing, after. Every time there is a change of tenancy or of owning and occupying property. ownership is precisely the point at which a new registration would have to be made. I do not believe you would I said earlier that I would hesitate, if I were a local need to send out forms every year; you would just need government official—which I am not—to delve into them when the occupancy or the ownership changed. this issue. It has very significant resource implications. That would provide a rolling database of the information I still tend, therefore, to the amendment of the noble that local authorities need. Lord, Lord Flight, but it has a number of holes and would provide far from perfect coverage. That said, we The Earl of Lytton: My Lords, this series of are beginning to drill down and head in the right amendments has raised some very interesting points. direction, which is somehow to find a method whereby At Second Reading, I suggested a means whereby people will voluntarily sign up because they see it as 2187 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2188 being in their interests to do so—because they want to do this, but it is also important that we recognise be seen as the good guys and the providers of quality, that some local authorities have already found ways of and not to be associated with the rogues about whom doing it; across many parts of London there is already we have heard so much today. such a scheme, and other councils—for example, by I hope the Government will feel that there is merit in using an Article 4 direction—have been able to do that. that. Perhaps with one or two tweaks—a combination Still, it is important that we treat these two issues as of some of the things discussed in this group of separate: first, with regard to the list of all private amendments—we could end up with something of sector rented landlords so that we can ensure that long-term benefit that would defuse some of the legislation that we pass in your Lordships’ House will adversarial nature of what we have been talking about, be enforced; and, secondly, that we allow discretion which is corrosive to the sector and to relationships to local authorities to decide how best they wish to between landlords and tenants and ultimately may end operate in the best interests of the people they seek to up leading us around the houses—excuse the pun—several represent in local authority areas. times without achieving what we need: the long-term betterment of the landlord-tenant relationship in the Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I remind private rented housing stock. noble Lords that this issue came up earlier under the Deregulation Bill. I was very opposed to the fact Lord Foster of Bath: My Lords, we seem to be that they threw out all rights to register people who discussing two slightly separate issues in this group of were living in these places. It came up, in particular, in amendments. The first is whether or not we need to relation to Airbnb. I divided the House and we lost the have a register of all private sector rented landlords, issue. Westminster Council had been prepared to register and I certainly believe that we need to have that. As people even at 24 hours’ notice so that it could know my noble friend Lord Greaves made very clear, if we who was occupying, not only as a landlord but who do not know who owns a particular property or who is was living in the place. This was rejected. I found it its landlord, it is very difficult to take enforcement extraordinary that, at a time when New York and action against them. It is also very difficult, as the Paris were bringing in this regulation, we were deregulating noble Lord, Lord Flight, has pointed out, for a number it. It went through on the Deregulation Bill and it of bits of government legislation to be effectively should be drawn to the attention of noble Lords enforced without having such a register—for example, again. It seems to be in total conflict with what the the requirement for landlords to vet the immigration House carried at that time, against what I was hoping, status of their tenants. which was more like what the noble Lord, Lord Foster, has just suggested. Amendment 27 from the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, proposes a mandatory register and suggests that the 7.30 pm way of filling the data in it is by requiring all landlords to sign up to it. As the noble Lord, Lord Flight, has Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, if I may, pointed out, there are some difficulties with that: I will take note of what my noble friend Lord Flight those landlords who are not particularly good, those has said and deal with it in the relevant group so that I who are on the border of being rogue landlords, are have both heard him and responded at the relevant not likely to bother to provide the information. The time and we do not move amendments out of kilter. noble Lord provides an alternative means of filling the Amendments 18 and 33A are very similar, so I will data sets: using the form that is initially sent in for address them together. These amendments would involve registering for council tax, although, as my noble local authorities operating an accreditation and licensing friend Lord Greaves has pointed out, that is done by scheme for private sector landlords in their area. The very many tenants only once in a blue moon. current licensing arrangements were introduced to So there are problems with how we fill the data set, give local authorities the ability to deal with problems but what is most important is that we hear from the that might arise in connection with rented property and Minister whether it is the Government’s view that we provide for three types of licensing: mandatory licensing should be having a national database. Whether it is of larger houses in multiple occupation; additional run at individual local authority level or nationally I licensing of smaller houses in multiple occupation; am not that concerned about at this stage, but it is and selective licensing of all types of private rented important to know what the Government’s thinking is housing, should the local authority see fit to do that. about having a database of all private sector landlords. A major drawback of licensing is that it impacts on Then perhaps we could get together from all sides of all landlords and it places additional burdens on reputable the House to work out the details of how we could fill landlords who are already fully compliant with their the data set and ensure that people registered appropriately. obligations. As my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy The second issue is local authorities operating says, this creates unnecessary costs for reputable landlords an accreditation or licensing scheme. There is a which tend to be passed on to tenants. The majority of straightforward difference between Amendment 18 landlords—the non-rogue landlords, to quote my noble from the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and my noble friend—provide a good service and the Government friend’s Amendment 33A. My noble friend suggests do not want to impose unnecessary additional costs that this should be voluntary and local authorities can on them or on tenants who may see their rents rise as decide whether or not to do it, while the noble Lord, landlord costs rise. Lord Beecham, is suggesting that all local authorities Accreditation is of interest only to good landlords must do it. I make it clear that I side entirely with my who rent out decent accommodation, so it does not noble friend. It is right and proper that local authorities help to identify and tackle criminal landlords nor lead 2189 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2190

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] Baroness Williams of Trafford: Absolutely—I would to improvements in the sector. Local authorities are in just make the point about the rogue ones, but the the best position to decide whether or not there is a noble Lord is absolutely right. need for an accreditation system in their area. Indeed, Amendment 27 would require all private landlords voluntary accreditation systems have been introduced to sign up to a national register, which would be operated by many local authorities and are also promoted by and maintained by a local authority. The information the main landlord associations. The noble Lord, Lord on the register could be used by local authorities to Beecham, asked whether these could be extended if inform landlords about regulatory matters, of their they were successful. They most definitely could, but it duties under the Housing Act and the Immigration would be a local decision-making process. I hope, with Act 2014, and other useful information. The Government that explanation, the noble Lord will agree to withdraw do not support a national register, for reasons which the amendment. some noble Lords have pointed out. In addition to I would like to thank my noble friend Lord Flight the costly undertaking of supporting a national for tabling Amendment 21. I see that my noble friend register— Lord Cathcart is in his place; he has spoken to this. The amendment would require local authorities to Lord Campbell-Savours: I am sorry to press the request tenure information from residents, owners and Minister again, but has any estimate been made of managing agents whenever the local authority requests what the cost would be? Can we have some idea, or is council tax information. As my noble friend Lord there just an assumption that it will be too costly? Cathcart and I have already discussed, it happens in some councils, as noble Lords have pointed out, Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I am not particularly in London. It is already being practised sure whether an assessment has been made, but while I by some councils, but not all. I am very supportive of do not know what the cost will be, there will be a cost. ensuring that local authorities have the tools necessary There will obviously be an obligation to provide a to tackle rogue landlords in the private rented sector in register, and therefore an associated resource and cost. their areas. Parts 2 and 3 of this Bill demonstrate our I cannot say what the quantum of that cost would be commitment to this. at this point. Local authorities already have powers in existing legislation to request tenure information on council tax Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I wonder whether the forms—as I have said, some do—through the Local Minister can also help me. She was helpfully describing Government Finance Act 1992 and the Housing Act 2004. a working party which is being set up and chaired by They can also access the tenancy deposit protection Dame Angela Watkinson, to report in three to six months’ schemes. I am very sympathetic to the purpose of this time. Given the findings and recommendations with amendment but, before jumping head first into legislation which it will no doubt come forward, can the Minister to require it, which could potentially increase financial assure us that there are powers within this proposed burdens, the Housing Minister and I intend to investigate legislation—the Act may have gone through by then—to the matter further and have taken steps to establish a implement them in a way which reflects the opinion of working group to explore this important issue. It will this House? Does she have those powers? How would be chaired by none other than Dame Angela Watkinson she therefore progress any findings which might or herself. The working group will assess the extent to might not follow the path of the noble Lord, Lord which local authorities are currently using their existing Flight, or the path of my noble friend Lord Beecham powers, examine how they could currently use this on this? information to tackle rogue landlords and, crucially, consider how and whether requiring the collection of Baroness Williams of Trafford: It may be helpful if I tenure data will assist in tackling rogue landlords. It is tell the noble Baroness that what I discussed with my due to meet in March and will report back to Ministers noble friend Lord Cathcart and the Housing Minister within three to six months. was that there are local authorities doing just this. I The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, came back imagine that the working group will be exploring the on the point about the ability of the Inland Revenue art of the possible—to extend if it needed—and what —or HMRC—to access rogue landlord data. the implications would be for local authorities, but some are already doing it under existing legislation. I Lord Campbell-Savours: All data. do not think that the Bill per se would do it, but it is about how we would marry up existing legislation Baroness Williams of Trafford: Yes, it can access all with what is already being done by local authorities. data, but in particular it can access rogue landlord data. This is part of my point: there is evidence of Baroness Hollis of Heigham: But that would suggest some practices in London where rogue landlords are that the chair of the working party and that party did housing 20 or so tenants in two-bedroom properties. not produce recommendations any different from those That evidence could be married up with the various currently practised. That of course is not probable. If agencies not only to find those rogue landlords but to it is to be effective, one will need some powers in this fine them as well, and recover the tax that is due to legislation, by affirmative regulations or something, to HMRC. I thought that might be a useful circling up. come back to that should it be appropriate. I doubt that the Minister would want primary legislation for Lord Campbell-Savours: I am not referring to rogue that, but if she does not have statutory instrument landlords but to all landlords. powers, she will not be able to do it. 2191 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] FCO: Funding 2192

Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, the working Having said that, I think it is clear that there is group will meet in March and I would not want to not much support for making this universal and pre-empt what it will come up with or recommend. I comprehensive, but I invite the Minister to commit to am saying that there is existing legislation to do what looking at how the current scheme might be improved my noble friend Lord Flight suggests, but it is a so that it could be speedier and done much more at the question of local authorities’ willingness to take it up, discretion of local authorities. At the moment you which is varied. I cannot pre-empt what the working have to have a certain number and a certain percentage; group will say. it is full of hurdles that get in the way of dealing with My noble friend also made the point that only the what is quite an important problem for many people. I good landlords will come forward, and I agree with beg leave to withdraw the amendment. that. I also agree that local authorities should focus Amendment 18 withdrawn. their enforcement on the small number of rogues who knowingly flout their obligations, and that what is why House resumed. Committee to begin again not before we are establishing the database. 8.43 pm. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, asked how the council can crack down on a landlord if the tenant does not Foreign and Commonwealth Office: know them. The tenant can raise concerns with the Funding council, which can use the powers in the Housing Act 2004 and seek action from the landlord or the Question for Short Debate property manager. The tenant may not know the 7.44 pm landlord, but they should know the managing agent. Asked by Lord Luce My noble friend Lord Flight asked how local authorities know where the rogue landlords are. Obviously To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their the database will be built up, but authorities will be policy for funding the Foreign and Commonwealth able to combine the tenancy deposit data with existing Office, in the light of their foreign policy interests. data sets, such as council tax and housing benefit data, to identify properties that are not on the tenancy Lord Luce (CB): My Lords, I welcome the opportunity deposit protection list and hence those potentially to clarify how the Government are matching the funding belonging to rogue landlords. of our diplomacy in relation to our foreign policy priorities. I am grateful to all noble Lords who are participating, with The noble Lord, Lord Foster, asked about immigration, all their experience, and to the Minister for responding. particularly illegal immigration, and how those tenants would be identified. The Immigration Act 2014 introduces I support the Government’s commitment in the Queen’s a requirement now to check the immigration status of Speech to continue to play a leading role in global affairs, the tenants. Where a landlord has concerns about a and I welcome the autumn spending review decision to tenant’s immigration status, he should contact the preserve the FCO budget in real terms. However, I Home Office. Local authorities can also raise any suggest that there is still a serious mismatch between concerns regarding illegal immigrants with the Home our foreign policy priorities and available diplomatic Office. resources. The result is that we cannot properly fulfil our ambitions. With those points, I hope that the noble Lord will feel content to withdraw his amendment. We need to look at this issue in a broader context to see why this is the case. Between 1997 and 2010 there Lord Beecham: My Lords, I will not keep Members were considerable reductions in the service. These of your Lordships’ House from their dinner or from included the closure of more than 30 UK overseas the dinner break business, whichever they prefer or are posts across Africa, Latin America and Asia. The committed to. coalition Government then embarked on tough new economic policies. During their five years in office, I have a couple of very short points. The first is that this led to a 16% core spending cut in real terms and a the Minister did not quite reply to my noble friend consequent reduction in UK-based staff from just Lady Hollis’s question, but perhaps she will send her a under 5,000 to just under 4,500, although this was reminder. Alternatively, of course, the Minister could buttressed by a larger locally engaged staff. look at Hansard. I should acknowledge that in 2011, the then Foreign The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, has raised Airbnb Secretary, now Lord Hague, did everything he could matters more than once in the House. If she looks to retain our embassies. As a result, the total number down the list she will see that I have Amendment 32, of overall posts overseas has increased from 258 to 268, which will touch on that matter, so, hopefully, we can and the numbers are maintained in 168 countries and revert to it. nine multilateral bodies. However, the danger now is Lastly, I shall say a brief word about Amendment 18. that our very high-quality UK-based staff are too few, Part of the problem is that at the moment we have a trying to do too many things. They are too thinly spread. selective licensing scheme that operates slowly, and I was struck by the Foreign Secretary’s own admission there are hurdles to surmount before you can implement of this when he said to the Select Committee on such a scheme. I mentioned the scheme that is now Foreign Affairs, just before the Autumn Statement: working in my own ward in Newcastle and which has received this additional funding—I repeat my gratitude “The ability to maintain the network at its current level and to sustain that in the future, and the ability to have a sufficient in the hope that perhaps we will get some more—so it density of policy-making capacity here in London so that we can is not a straightforward matter to produce any form of lead the foreign-policy-making process across Government and licence scheme on a selective basis. beyond are the key to the Foreign Office’s raison d’etre”. 2193 FCO: Funding[LORDS] FCO: Funding 2194

[LORD LUCE] global economy and financial system, in addition to He went on to say that, the fact that the end of the Cold War has seen the “we are pretty close to the irreducible minimum of UK-based return of local conflicts, many failed states and the staff on the network”. increase of terrorism. In the face of all this, it must be By comparison, we spend less per capita on diplomacy in our British interests to continue using our diplomatic than the United States, Germany, France, Australia assets around the world, and within alliances and and Canada. international organisations, to work actively for peace, Another way of looking at this is in the context of stability and the promotion of free trade. But we can HMG’s spending on international policy. Of every only do that if our diplomacy is adequately funded £1,000 the Government spend, £2 goes to the Foreign and supported. Office, £50 goes to defence and £10 goes to DfID for In my five years as a Minister in the FCO, I grew to development aid. I note that the MoD and DfID admire the immense skills and intellectual judgment shares are now formally linked to international targets; of many independent-minded diplomats. But I recognise the FCO’s is not, and so is vulnerable to squeeze. that the role of the diplomat is changing with the It is increasingly clear that the capability of the FCO digital age. The range of tasks facing a diplomat today to undertake its vital work has been declining. There demand a multiskilled approach. Our embassies provide have been noticeable weaknesses in managing the outcome a platform for 26 government departments, promote of crises in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the operational trade, deliver consular services and contribute to global handling of the Russia/Ukraine region, Syria and Libya. issues such as tackling climate change and cybersecurity. Also, for example, only 23% of the jobs in eastern This must mean attracting and retaining sufficient highly Europe and Central Asia and only 27% in the Middle qualified people, who these days have many other career East and north Africa have the required number of choices open to them. If we spread them too thinly local language speakers. In this context, I welcome the around the world and give them inadequate training, new Language Centre and the Diplomatic Academy. we will both overstrain them and fail to provide the Further problems arise from underinvestment in modern quality needed for an effective foreign policy. equipment and ageing IT systems. I suggest we need more of these highly qualified It seems to me that we now face a choice: either we people as well as better resources to support them. I continue to play a global role, punching above our weight, am not convinced that the settlement the FCO has as the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, once suggested, or we now reached with the Treasury for the next five years recognise that we are no longer willing to afford what provides for this. The cost would be peanuts compared it takes, sharpen our priorities and reduce or eliminate to the DfID budget of over £13 billion. I want to see some of our roles. I, like the Government, am in favour us using all our strengths as a country—strengths that of the first choice. There are many reasons for this. we tend to understate and underplay—to try to contribute In my student days at Cambridge, I had the privilege to a better and more stable world. of meeting Dean Acheson, who had famously proclaimed We need to take every opportunity within the that Britain had lost an empire but not yet found a Commonwealth to use our soft power to our mutual role. I believe that this is no longer true. We have seen benefit. We need to be active in Europe, whatever form a successful transformation of an empire into a it takes. We need to remain a robust partner in NATO Commonwealth of 53 equal nations whose potential through strengthened Armed Forces and as a nuclear we have yet to fulfil. We are anxious to play a full role power. We need to be actively working with our friends globally, but no longer as an imperial superpower. in the Gulf countries to reduce tension and to end It is worth reminding ourselves of our position in conflict. We need to work hard to understand the the world. We are the fifth-largest economy. We are a importance of new relationships in Asia while keeping nuclear weapon state within the non-proliferation treaty. close to our neighbours in Europe and our old friends We are members of more multilateral international in the States. In all this, effective diplomacy will be at a bodies than any other nation, ranging from the UN—with premium. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s our permanent membership of the Security Council— response to this debate and, in particular, to the urgent to the EU, NATO, IMF and so on. We can add to need for the Government to provide adequate diplomatic all this our “accumulated estate of soft power”, so well support to enable us to continue to play an effective summarised by the 2014 Lords Select Committee on Soft global role. Power, ably chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Howell. It showed that we have the strongest cultural assets in 7.54 pm the world. We are a leading digitally connected society. Lord Patten (Con): My Lords, I listened with great We are ethnically diverse and therefore outward looking. respect to that masterly overview from the noble Lord, The BBC World Service and the British Council are Lord Luce. He has no greater admirer than me for all outstanding in communicating our values to the world. that he achieved as a Foreign Office Minister, and At the same time, Britain’s security and prosperity indeed later in Gibraltar. I would seek to correct him are under threat and likely to remain so. If anything, on only one minor point. He paid us all some advance the world is more troubled than it was in 2010. Moreover, compliments on being great experts on foreign affairs. it is changing fast. We have seen the rapid rise of Alas, not me. I was never considered by the powers China, an aggressive Russia, disintegration in the Middle that be to have the subtlety of mind to be appointed to East spurred on by Daesh, a weakening of the EU and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I equally admire of transatlantic cohesion, an international humanitarian the work now being done by Philip Hammond, building system at breaking point, with 60 million displaced people on that of his predecessors such as my noble friend Lord and mass migration towards Europe, and a sketchy Hague, in continuing to focus the FCO within resources. 2195 FCO: Funding[9 FEBRUARY 2016] FCO: Funding 2196

This is a never-ending task: it will never be completed, which will require all nations to co-operate. It is obviously but has to be done year in, year out. We must recognise also true of security, and of economic affairs and that in an age of austerity—or restraint, or whatever the many other things. current polite phrase is—it is far from over, and that One thing that has come out in the debate is that many any great expenditure increases in the next five years significant departments of state have, in effect, their are unlikely, after the five-year settlement. We must also own foreign policy. That makes the Foreign Office’s recognise, however—this is a positive point—how many work in co-ordinating that reality, and in making sure other departments are pitching in, and increasingly so, that the policies individual departments are following on the foreign affairs front. Some of them were enumerated are well informed and based on sound judgment, more by the noble Lord. They are not just the obvious ones important than ever. That is tremendously demanding. such as DfID or the MoD: there is also BIS, with its It is also important to recognise that if we are to welcome refettling of UKTI activities to create greater make an effective contribution to global governance, focus, as well as helping to proselytise for the university we need good intelligence—we need to be able to achievements of this country worldwide. The Department understand the world in which we are working. That for Education is also increasingly concerned with makes the front-line work of the Foreign Office crucial. educational exports—and other departments are getting One of the changes we have to make in any leadership involved too. role we may want to play is that we have to understand All this is becoming much more joined up, albeit that we cannot cruise on our past status—we cannot perhaps not by design but by chance. Many departments take for granted that the world is going to listen to us are now much more foreign-facing than they may have because we have been a great power, an imperial been when the noble Lord, Lord Luce, first went to the power, and the rest. We have to earn our laurels and Foreign and Commonwealth Office. That is a very that means the quality of what we are contributing good thing, and should be encouraged across Government. will be vital. That rams home again the crucial challenges I urge the Minister to carry back the message to to the Foreign Office and its personnel. Foreign and Commonwealth Ministers that they should When I was in the Foreign Office, like the noble tell taxpayers just how many other departments beside Lord, I was incredibly impressed by the quality and the FCO are intimately involved in foreign affairs, dedication of the people I was working with. But it is a albeit sometimes at one remove. changing demand and therefore we will have to have in Finally, if I may strike a personal note, I much the Foreign Office the people who are right for meeting admire the individual civil servants in the Foreign and that demand and playing it in the directions I have Commonwealth Office who are on the front line, indicated. dealing with difficult and sometimes, I have to say, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Luce, for introducing morally challenging matters—for instance, if they are this debate. I hope it will be one more spur to seeing in Saudi Arabia, wanting to maintain our important that whatever we do with the future of public expenditure strategic interests there, but in a country that routinely and government priorities in this country, the Foreign crucifies and cuts off heads week by week. That is a Office will remain pre-eminent. great moral challenge for those young men and young women. It is exactly the same with Turkey—a country 8.01 pm that is using military force against its own citizens Lord Chidgey (LD): My Lords, I, too, congratulate today, but is also playing a very welcome and important the noble Lord, Lord Luce, on securing this debate role in the Syrian refugee context. Those are truly and the admirable way in which he introduced it. examples of the diplomat’s personal dilemma, which I want to talk about something related. In last year’s people must face on a day to day basis. strategic defence and security review, the Government I end by saying that the people of Gibraltar would decided to place greater emphasis on soft power as wish that the noble Lord, Lord Luce, was back there, part of their national security strategy. The decision to dealing with an increasingly intransigent Spanish bring the funding of the BBC World Service back into Government, who are conducting their affairs in a the remit of the Foreign Office, with a budget of most un-European way. £85 million each year by 2017-18, was therefore widely welcomed. 7.57 pm I know that many noble Lords will recall their past Lord Judd (Lab): Not for the first time, I thank the noble dependence on the often crackly and faint yet measured Lord, Lord Luce. I thank him for having introduced tones of the BBC World Service shortwave reception. this debate today, for having done it so well, and for Calmly, it brought reliable news and comment to the having set out the challenges so clearly. The first reality remote and sometimes unstable locations to which of existence, and certainly the first reality for Britain, noble Lords’ employment had taken them. Currently is that we are all now part of a highly interdependent reaching 308 million people worldwide, and with a world. The challenge for politicians in this generation, goal to reach 500 million by 2022, the BBC World under Governments of all persuasions, is the contribution, Service has established an envious reputation for delivering and the value of that contribution, that we can make trusted, impartial news. Plans for investing here, where to meeting this global reality—strengthening global a global gap has never been wider, will be very welcome, governance and the effective delivery, for people all particularly in Africa, where audience figures outstrip over the world, of the policies that are necessary. all other areas of the world. This is true of migration. We are only beginning to During previous rounds of spending cuts, replacing see what is going to face us in the future, with climate the extensive World Service network of shortwave radio change and the rest. It will become a gigantic issue, transmitters with cheaper, local, city-based FM stations 2197 FCO: Funding[LORDS] FCO: Funding 2198

[LORD CHIDGEY] other words, to understand how people think. This seemed like a good wheeze. The problem was, and is, sort of training cannot be short-term; it needs time, that these FM stations are particularly vulnerable to effort and consistency. political interference and closure when countries become I hope that the Minister can reassure us all that unstable. Closure of FM stations compromises the regional and country expertise, together with language delivery of the BBC’s flagship: trusted and impartial training, is now high on the agenda of the FCO, and news. In Answers to Written Questions, the Government that funding will be there to achieve it. It would also have told me that forced closures of FM stations have be useful to know how many people are now being occurred in numerous African countries, including trained in each year in so-called hard languages: in Somalia, Sudan and Rwanda—perhaps not surprisingly particular, Arabic, Japanese and Chinese. Perhaps it is —but also, I believe, in Nigeria. Nevertheless, while not fair to ask for an answer of the cuff, but if the audiences have switched from shortwave to FM, the Minister would like to write to me and place the letter total audience across all platforms in sub-Saharan in the Library, that would be very useful. Africa has risen from some 53 million to 82 million over the past 10 years. 8.07 pm Here lies the challenge to increasing the BBC World Lord Marland (Con): My Lords, I, too, thank the Service’s audience from 308 million to the target of noble Lord, Lord Luce, for his excellent résumé. I also 500 million by 2022: half the world’s population is declare interests as chairman of the Commonwealth under 35. The BBC’s future plans need to target Enterprise and Investment Council and as the Prime aspiring youth overseas. The rise in TV audiences will Minister’s former trade envoy. In the limited time continue to outstrip radio; digital platforms will continue available—which is shameful really; three minutes to to expand; and, particularly in Africa, mobile phone talk about such an important subject—I will pose two technology will challenge other news-delivery media. questions to my noble friend and hope that he will For the BBC World Service to keep pace and to be respond either here or in writing. ahead of the curve in the future, there has to be some We all agree with the noble Lord, Lord Luce, who certainty now in funding streams beyond 2018. put it beautifully, that resources in the Foreign Office are extremely limited and, much more importantly, 8.04 pm unevenly spread. My first question is: how many people work on the European desk and how many work on Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB): My Lords, the subject the Commonwealth desk? I will give a rough answer: of this debate is broad and important, but time is very it is probably 10 to 15 on the Commonwealth desk short indeed, so I shall concentrate on one issue: the and 100 on the European desk. The Commonwealth, importance of regional and country expertise if we are incidentally, comprises one-third of the world’s population to have an effective foreign policy and, it follows from and 53 countries which all speak the same language. It that, the need for consistent funding to support it. is probably our oldest trading relationship, on which a A good many years ago, when I was a relatively small group of people in the Foreign Office work junior member of the Foreign Office, I was summoned tirelessly to try to maintain the lights, under the spectacular to 10 Downing Street to brief the Prime Minister on a leadership of a Minister, Hugo Swire. visit to south-east Asia. The meeting started with My second question is about Africa. We have lost the Prime Minister, the then Mrs Thatcher, roundly our pre-eminence. China is now overrunning Africa condemning the Foreign Office for its written briefing: with its investment and its new set of rules, which are what was the point of it all? She could get just the not necessarily conducive to our rules of engagement. same sort of thing from the special supplements in the When I was a Minister, I invited the Foreign Office to Financial Times. produce a report on how it should reallocate resources Of course, that was all to ginger people up, and for Africa and redistribute personnel to reflect the there is no harm in that, but it reflected a view that was differing and emerging countries. So my second question beginning to be current then and which has continued is: how has that report gone? Has it been enacted? in the minds of some people that globalisation means Have steps been taken to make it happen? From the that the whole world is coming together, similarities outside, it does not look so. I was with the Cameroon between countries are now much greater, so why, then, high commissioner yesterday. He was bemoaning the have specialist diplomats? Rely instead on the newspapers fact that no Cabinet Minister has ever visited Cameroon and the news media. It was not true then; it is not true in its history. I think we could say the same for now. I am no expert on the area, but it seems clear that Angola, Mozambique and for a lot of African countries. in recent years, we have desperately needed more and This is shameful, given the resources and wealth that greater expertise on Iraq and Afghanistan and now on are now happening in these countries. Syria and Libya as well. The Foreign Office is an excellent institution, but it There have been very welcome signs that the Foreign is spread too thinly. It needs our support and it needs Office, particularly under the noble Lord, Lord Hague, greater resources. It is up to us to put pressure on the has again taken to heart the traditional need for regional Government—our own party—to ensure that resources and language expertise. The setting up of a new Foreign are created for it. Office language school, to which my noble friend Lord Luce referred, just over two years ago, is a very welcome 8.10 pm sign. After all, the value of learning a language is Lord Green of Deddington (CB): My Lords, I should not just the ability to speak it; it is a means of like to speak in support of the points made so eloquently understanding the history and culture of a country—in and powerfully by my noble friend Lord Luce in his 2199 FCO: Funding[9 FEBRUARY 2016] FCO: Funding 2200 opening speech. I await with anticipation the contribution developing countries around the world. These include of my noble friend Lord Kerr, who ran the service for diseases, global climate change and, as is described in five years and who should certainly be listened to. this week’s New Scientist, the transformation or long-term For my part, I should like to offer a view from the storage of nuclear waste, which may be a 1,000-year coalface at which I strove for some 35 years, including problem. in Saudi Arabia. It is self-evident that the effectiveness I hope that the Government will be more proactive of the Diplomatic Service depends on the quality and in participating in the organisations of the EU, the experience of our staff in the overseas posts. I was, Commonwealth and the UN, as other noble Lords have therefore, shocked to discover that, in nearly half of mentioned. In my experience as a chief executive them, there are two or fewer UK-based staff. I take of the Met Office, and now working with high-tech nothing away from the value of local staff—they make companies abroad much of the time, I have seen the a great contribution to many parts of our work—but technical and commercial value of collaboration with the key task of interpreting a foreign society to our the EU networks and UN agencies. Also working with own society relies on capable and experienced staff, as the Commonwealth is very important, particularly on the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, has just pointed out. climate change. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Much of that art is learned from your superiors. In and government departments are not seen by other two-man posts, you are not going to learn very much; countries to be as effective in advertising and making you are not even going to be there together for very use of these collaborative programmes. Our embassies long. and government offices do not do not regularly fly the To be effective in any post requires a steady building EU and UN flag. One embassy I visited celebrated of trust at senior levels in the other Government. This, pulling down the EU flag at the end of Britain’s period in turn, requires that our representatives know the of the presidency and hoped that it would never have language, culture, history and the way that people to put it up again. think in those countries. This is absolutely vital. We The UK’s involvement in the EU and the UN is not have to earn our laurels, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, advertised on the UK Government webpage. It is pointed out. We have to be good but, sadly, this noticeable, however, that other EU countries that have expertise has been hollowed out. It is almost beyond bigger budgets, as has been commented on, nevertheless belief that about a quarter of the jobs in the Middle advertise their role in the EU very considerably. How East that should have Arabic speakers do not have would a foreign businessman or a technical institute them. The cost of the lack of that expertise is and can know about the UK’s participation? Surely the FCO be immense. It is surely apparent that the Government’s should be expanding its work in this way and performance in recent years in Iraq, Libya and Syria demonstrating its participation. I hope the Minister has revealed at every stage an inadequate knowledge will perhaps respond to that. of the vertical, social realities of these countries. I am afraid that the House of Lords Science and The same remarks about expertise apply in London Technology Committee, which has been looking into also. My noble friend Lord Luce quoted the Foreign the consequences of the UK leaving the EU, has had Secretary as referring to, evidence from UK and non-UK companies showing “a sufficient density of policy-making capacity”. that UK business will lose its influence in steering the Well, well, well. I think what that means is people who new technological initiatives that will emerge from Horizon actually know what they are talking about. This is 2020. In that event, the Foreign and Commonwealth rather important because, if officials are going to stand Office and other departments will have to spend more up to Ministers, it is not good enough that they have money to ensure strong participation. It is very important simply read the same telegrams. They will not be taken for the Foreign Office budget that we remain in the any notice of. They have to speak from a real experience EU. The days of a UK FCO just physically and of the region; a real knowledge of the leaders of the metaphorically displaying the union jack should be countries we are talking about; how they think; what over. their priorities are, and what the pressures on them are. They need a long experience, the longer the better, 8.17 pm especially in stable countries—if there are any left—in such countries that have had a stable Government for Lord Craig of Radley (CB): My Lords, I, too, some time. commend the noble Lord, Lord Luce, for securing this all-too-brief debate. If money is short, why not try Regrettably, it has now become quite clear that the melding better together the efforts of charity and Diplomatic Service is stretched far too thinly.Its capability other bodies with those of FCO staffs in posts overseas? to promote and defend our national interest is declining and this is a decline which the Government must bring I am a fellow of the Commonwealth Partnership for urgently to a halt. Technology Management—CPTM, for short. It has a remarkable track record: more than 20 years of organising yearly, or near-yearly large-scale meetings attended by 8.13 pm heads of government or states from a variety of Lord Hunt of Chesterton (Lab): My Lords, I welcome Commonwealth and other countries in the developing this debate on the funding and policy of the Foreign world. The host head will personally be present and and Commonwealth Office. Important parts of UK take full part in the two or three-day event. All these foreign policy also concern working with other countries heads are themselves fellows of CPTM. In addition to to create opportunities for UK business and to deal the wider gatherings, we have fellows only sessions. I with major challenges that affect both developed and have met and dined with heads on these occasions 2201 FCO: Funding[LORDS] FCO: Funding 2202

[LORD CRAIG OF RADLEY] First, the funding situation is a little worse that my informally, without any of the normal protocol to noble friend describes. In my five years, the FCO secured arrange meetings or discussions with such individuals. real-terms increases in its vote every year, but in the Participants at these gatherings are drawn from business, 15 years since I left, there has been a real-terms cut of labour, academia, the media, government and other 20%. It is actually bigger than 20% if you think of its public sector bodies. All can enjoy the freedom of effect on the front line, because when you strip out the direct interaction at every level, including with the programme spending on UN contributions, international heads attending. These meetings invariably lead to subscriptions and the conferences, exhibitions and wide-ranging and fascinating exchanges between those stunts which are so popular with Ministers of every present. political complexion, what you are left with for funding CPTM’s vision is to encourage by interaction a the service is much more steeply reduced. smart approach to activity between all sectors, to The paradigm case is language skills, and I entirely achieve win-win outcomes, and to reflect Commonwealth agree with the points already made. When I was values of tolerance and co-operation rather than an Permanent Secretary, there were some 400 to 500 people attitude of beggar my neighbour and confrontation. —my noble friend Lord Green among them—who Indeed, the fact that successive heads from those countries spoke Arabic in the service. There now are 131. When I participating have been interested in CPTM and followed learned Russian, I was one of about 300 in the service so closely the involvement with it of their predecessors who spoke it; there now are 56. That is very worrying. in office, is a strong indicator that CPTM has lasting As my noble friend Lord Green said, what Whitehall, value. It has done much to help those developing Ministers and businesses look for from the Diplomatic nations and their leaders to formulate their vision and Service is considered advice from people who know approach to national growth and prosperity. what they are talking about because they have been in I am afraid that UK Governments have shown the country more than once. They have got about and scant interest in this successful enterprise and the know who is in and who is out, who is going to be the work of CPTM. They miss out. Involvement in these next President, and who is rising and who is falling. gatherings would give local high commission staff the They know who, in each decision tree, is the real opportunity to network informally with key regional decision-maker or influencer. They have been round individuals and to better appreciate the complex of the bazaars and the restive provinces, and they know feelings and attitudes about the United Kingdom held what is being said in the mosques. They have made by many of those from the developing world. May I friends and done favours. They have been to the funerals encourage the Minister to get briefed about CPTM? I and to the weddings: they have become trusted, so am, of course, willing to facilitate any meeting between they can go and listen. Most importantly, they have to the CEO of CPTM and the FCO to assist. be good listeners. I worry that our staff, much more thinly spread 8.20 pm than they used to be, are now required to spend far too Lord Hylton (CB): My Lords, I will speak not so much of their time preaching rather than listening. It much on funding, important as that is, but rather on seems to me that the key thing that the Foreign Office our foreign policy interests. This country is by far the adds is local knowledge distilled from a long stay and largest European provider of aid for refugees and lots of contacts. I wonder whether this is the reason we displaced people from Iraq and Syria, and it is therefore were blindsided by the Russians when they attacked very much in our interests that these large sums be Ukraine or why we unwisely derecognised President spent effectively and fairly. I have two questions on Assad on the grounds that we assumed he was about our interests as regards Syria. to fall. I wonder whether we sometimes have such a tin ear for the resonance in other countries of our EU First, what are the Government doing to ensure rhetoric because we do not have enough people explaining that the largest share of food aid does not go to areas the local impact and effect of our actions. controlled by Assad? This will serve only to prolong the war and thus displace more people. Aid must, The noble Lord, Lord Luce, is quite right to talk surely, go fairly to all those in need. Secondly, why has about a mismatch. Our talk about a global role and it taken from 2013 until just last month for British global responsibilities will be more posturing than officials to visit the free cantons of north Syria? I was performance if it is not backed with adequate resources. briefly in Jazira last May. It was quite easy to get in, yet it took the visit of the United States diplomat 8.25 pm Mr Brett McGurk before our people went—with him—to Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, I strongly Kobane. The cantons of Rojava may well hold the key agree with the noble Lord, Lord Luce, about the loss to the future of Syria. We should therefore work with of analytical and linguistic capability in the Foreign them. I look forward to the ministerial reply, since I Office over the past 20 years or more. have given him notice. I spent a little time as a very junior member of the ministerial team in the Foreign Office saying that we 8.21 pm should be spending more time looking at the eastern Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB): My Lords, my noble neighbourhood and being told that it was not a high friend Lord Luce was indeed an excellent Minister and priority. When the Ukraine crisis broke out, we were governor and deserves to be congratulated on having desperately short of people who understood Ukraine made every single one of the points that I had intended and Russia, and others who had retired had to be to make. Undeterred, I will add a couple. brought back in. That is a good example of how if you 2203 FCO: Funding[9 FEBRUARY 2016] FCO: Funding 2204 do not follow things through—if you do not understand budget of 16%. Yes, we should all be happy that we the language or have sufficient understanding of where saw only a freeze this year, but that does not make up a country’s elite is coming from to be able to empathise, for the fact that we have seen a 16% cut since 2010. even if you disagree with its point of view—you get The task of the FCO is substantial, but we spend even things wrong. less on it than New Zealand does on its foreign affairs I also strongly agree with the dangers of reducing ministry. Germany spends almost 50% more than us the number of overseas posts to a point when you have and, while France has cut its diplomatic effort, its one or two that are home-based. We are asking the operating budget is still over one-quarter larger than locally employed in a number of posts to do things the UK’s. Is it any wonder that we were frozen out of which are, frankly, dangerous for them and, incidentally, the discussions over the Ukraine crisis and had to do not provide good enough political reporting for us. watch France and Germany taking the lead? I disagree strongly with the noble Lord about whether It is a shame that we have seen such a substantial or not we have a foreign policy. I have read the 1961 shift in the responsibility of our embassies, so that today report to Harold Macmillan which said that unless we they are so focused on promoting exports. For every have a coherent European policy, we will not have an minute spent on promoting British exports, less time is overall strategic foreign policy. That is as true now as it spent developing an in-depth understanding of the was in 1961. I will take that no further but say simply country. The LSE Diplomacy Commission recently that in terms of where the Foreign Office goes from noted that, to make the FCO more effective, part of here, we also need to recognise that the Foreign Office the solution lies in preventing UK foreign policy from can no longer make foreign policy. It is a great source prioritising commercial diplomacy above all else. The of expertise and advice but we make foreign policy across licensing of strategic arms exports is a particular case Whitehall. In this Government—too much, I think—the in point: in Egypt, British foreign policy is delivering Treasury makes foreign policy, No 10 makes foreign development and governance assistance on the one policy, the Cabinet Office makes foreign policy, and the hand while supplying arms on the other. Foreign Office has been to some extent pushed out. We should not underestimate the damage that leaving But if we want to deal with climate change, management the EU would make to Britain’s ability to influence events of the internet, cybersecurity, global pandemics or and policies on the global stage. We could no longer count migration, we have to have people across Whitehall with on the EU to represent us in many countries around skills, understanding of foreign countries and negotiating the world and we would have to negotiate a whole raft capabilities, and we are not good at doing that. of our own trade agreements. In theory, this would Those noble Lords old enough to remember the be the responsibility of the Department for Business, Berrill report, which said that we needed to have a Innovation and Skills, but the fact is that we have no proper overseas cadre across Whitehall, will remember skills whatever to negotiate trade deals in this country; that that was unfortunately resisted by the Foreign we have not needed to do so for over 40 years. Office. I tried when in government to look at language Undoubtedly the Department for Business, Innovation skills across Whitehall. There was very little evidence and Skills would have to rely on Foreign Office expertise that departments even kept proper account of who and there would be great pressure to redirect resources spoke what languages. That is simply not good enough. from the FCO to BIS. We need the cross-posting of people from other Traditionally, the FCO has been the Rolls-Royce of departments when they are young and unmarried or the Civil Service machine. Its strength has a direct without children to go abroad, partly because that is bearing on our position and influence in the world. We when it is much easier to get them to do that, so that cannot let the service erode any further. we build those sorts of external understandings and languages in other departments. 8.32 pm My final comment is that the biggest threat to the The Earl of Courtown (Con): My Lords, I thank the FCO’s future overseas budget is the Government’s noble Lord, Lord Luce, for his thoughtful and announcement that they are going to impose economic comprehensive contribution to this debate, and welcome rent on government departments across Whitehall. this opportunity to address the issue of funding for The FCO would make a wonderful hotel. I am not the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and our foreign sure the FCO budget could stand the comparable rent. policy interests. We last debated the subject in November in response to a Question from my noble friend Lady Helic. That was prior to the publication of the strategic 8.28 pm defence and security review, the spending review and Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab): My Lords, I, too, the new development strategy. At that time I reassured thank the noble Lord, Lord Luce, for putting this the House of the Government’s commitment to issue on to the agenda and for his exposition of his eliminating the deficit. I confirmed that the FCO had analysis of the situation. played its part through cutting its operating costs I am sure that for us all the world feels more while continuing to respond to new challenges and unpredictable than it has felt in decades. We have opportunities. terrorism, mass migration, the shift from west to east, The noble Lord, Lord Luce, highlighted the importance and Russia now throwing its weight around again. On of soft power and praised the chairmanship of a top of that, we have the spread of nuclear weapons committee of your Lordships’ House by my noble friend and the need to tackle cybercrime. We have the challenge Lord Howell, as did the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey. of climate change. These are all new challenges, yet The noble Lord is quite right about the importance of what have we seen? A reduction in the Foreign Office soft power and sought assurance that the Government 2205 FCO: Funding[LORDS] FCO: Funding 2206

[THE EARL OF COURTOWN] of the excellent FCO language centre, which opened in would continue to invest in our diplomatic resources, 2013. It accommodates approximately 1,000 students as well as in military and development activity, in per year, including those from other government order to protect and advance of the UK’s interests departments. globally. It therefore gives me great pleasure to confirm The noble Lord, Lord Luce, suggested—as did the commitments made in another place by the Chancellor other noble Lords—that the Foreign and Commonwealth of the Exchequer in the Autumn Statement on the Office is under-resourced to address the myriad challenges spending review. The Chancellor announced that the that we face. While protection of the Foreign and Government would protect the FCO in real terms. I Commonwealth Office’s departmental resources is an am sure that noble Lords will all want to know what important signal of the Government’s commitment to that protection means in practice. First and foremost, maintaining our global role, I acknowledge that it is the overall resource departmental expenditure limits not likely to be sufficient in an increasingly challenging for the FCO will rise in line with inflation in each of international context. I am therefore pleased to confirm the four years covered by the spending review. This that spending on the Government’s international priorities will raise funding from £1.1 billion in 2015-16 to will increase, with a larger Conflict, Stability and £1.24 billion by 2019-20. This settlement will enable Security Fund, a new Prosperity Fund and more funding the department to maintain our world-class diplomatic for the British Council and BBC World Service. I service, including our network of diplomatic posts, noted what the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, had to say which host 26 different government departments and but I will have to write to him on the details. This is agencies around the world. This global presence, and intended to increase the impact of the United Kingdom’s continued foreign policy leadership in Whitehall by soft power assets, as mentioned by other noble Lords. the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, will serve to protect our national security, promote our prosperity, The Conflict, Stability and Security Fund, through and project the UK’s values. which the Foreign and Commonwealth Office funds In line with this Government’s commitment to spending much of its conflict prevention work, will grow by 0.7% of gross national income on development assistance, 19% in real terms by 2019-20, to a total of £1.5 billion the FCO will be allocated additional ODA-eligible per year. This will strengthen the UK’s ability to resources, more than doubling our spending—from support stabilisation in countries including Syria, Ukraine, £273 million in 2015-16 to £560 million in 2019-20. Somalia and Pakistan. It will increase the United This will enable us to pursue our key foreign policy Kingdom’s response to serious transnational threats, priorities and deliver the ambition set out in the new including extremism, serious and organised crime and development strategy. illegal migration. Within this settlement the Foreign and Commonwealth As I have already mentioned, a new Prosperity Office will undertake new work. This includes hosting Fund, worth £1.3 billion over the next five years, will the presidency of the European Union in 2017, be used to support global growth, trade and stability. and increased spending to support the UK’s Overseas This will reduce poverty in emerging and developing Territories, in order to meet our long-standing countries, and open up new markets and opportunities commitment to address their reasonable needs. To that to the United Kingdom. Funding for the British Council end, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will will also be protected in real terms. In addition, the co-ordinate a new strategy for the Overseas Territories council will be able to bid for up to £700 million from and chair a new director-level board, to direct cross- a cross-government fund to improve links with emerging government activity. In addition, the Foreign and economies, help tackle extremism globally, and support Commonwealth Office will spend up to £24 million good governance. over the next four years to increase the presence of its The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, gave me prior notice counter-terrorism and extremism experts overseas. The of a couple of questions that he wished me to answer. noble Lords, Lord Kerr, Lord Luce, Lord Wilson of I will answer them, but if there is anything more I can Tillyorn, Lord Green and Lord Wallace of Saltaire, add later, I will. Basically, he was asking me what Her all commented on the language capabilities of our Majesty’s Government are doing to prevent the largest service. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office will share of food aid going to Assad-controlled areas. All allocate new funds to improve Mandarin, Russian and UK-funded assistance is distributed on the basis of Arabic language skills. It will enhance country and need to ensure that civilians are not discriminated regional expertise across the former Soviet Union against on the grounds of race, religion or ethnicity. and the Gulf, and invest in electronic data collection The Department for International Development continues and analysis to maximise the benefits of open-source to work with the United Nations and the international information. community to ensure that all minorities’ rights are protected and our aid reaches those in greatest need. Lord Patten: May I come back very briefly on that point about language skills, to ask if that list could be We recognise that the Syrian Kurds are in the midst extended to take in more people trained in Farsi, given of the continuing civil war, and their fight against the growing importance of Iran, which is opening up Daesh. However, we do not recognise calls by the to the world? PYD for an autonomous Kurdish area. We continue to use our contact with Kurdish groups to encourage The Earl of Courtown: On that issue, I will have to commitment to pluralism, respect for the other political write to my noble friend. On the same topic, the noble forces within the Kurdish areas and co-operation with Lord, Lord Wilson of Tillyorn, asked about the teaching the rest of the Syrian opposition to work towards a of hard languages and how many students come out political solution to the conflict. 2207 FCO: Funding[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2208

Lastly, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will The purpose of Amendment 19 is to go further and be provided with a flat cash settlement of £98 million bring more properties into scope. To be part of the capital funding per year to invest in its real estate. This mandatory licensing scheme under my amendment, will fund new embassy buildings in Abuja and Budapest the only two conditions which would need to be met and provide further investment across the Foreign and are that the property has to have five or more people Commonwealth Office estate to keep people safe while living in it and in at least two households. As I have they are working for the UK abroad. said, houses in multiple occupation pose the greatest risk to the tenants living there. It has been established Lord Marland: At the risk of being a Commonwealth by research undertaken that people living in bed-sits bore, the Minister made the point that the UK will be are six times more likely to die as a result of fire than president of Europe for six months. It will also be people living in an ordinary house. A number of factors chairman of the Commonwealth for two years. The can be at play here, from a vulnerable person living in Minister has been at great pains to refer to the Foreign the accommodation to the quality of the construction and Commonwealth Office, but he has not said at any or conversion of the property. The time has come to point what the Government intend to do there; I extend these provisions and I hope that we get a would like him to write to me. favourable response. I beg to move. The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, of course I will. With the time allowed, I was unable to extend my Lord Shipley (LD): I do not wish to detain the remarks to all issues. Committee but I simply want to say that this is an This Government’s investment in our foreign policy extremely interesting proposal, which I hope the Ministers capability delivers results on many fronts: whether the will look at very carefully. We have a lot of experience key role we played in the Iran nuclear negotiations, or our in recent years of HMOs and the legislation about leadership in tackling the Ebola crisis. Meanwhile, our having three storeys. We need to look carefully at this commitment to protect the Foreign and Commonwealth because the proposal as outlined by the noble Lord, Office budget and to provide additional funds for Lord Kennedy of Southwark, seems to be one meriting cross-government activity internationally will ensure some further close attention. the UK continues to play a pivotal role in tackling the most important global challenges in the years to come. Baroness Maddock (LD): My Lords, if I may briefly intervene, I remember having great discussions about Housing and Planning Bill this matter on previous Housing Bills a long time ago. Committee (1st Day) (Continued) When the Bill with this provision in it originally came forward, we flagged up that there would be problems on 8.43 pm it. I urge the Government to look again at this. They can Relevant document: 20th Report from the Delegated look back at the discussions we had in those days Powers Committee about how to describe an HMO and the issue about the three storeys. Some of us have been in this House Amendment 19 and doing housing over a number of years. I do not Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark think that there is anybody else in the Committee right this minute who would have done this when I did, but 19: After Clause 54, insert the following new Clause— there will be Members of the House who remember it “Description of Houses in Multiple Occupation (HMOs) very well. Article 3 of the Licensing of Houses in Multiple Occupation (Prescribed Descriptions) (England) Order 2006 is amended as follows— Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): My Lords, (a) omit paragraph (2)(a); and this amendment would insert a new clause into the Bill that seeks to remove the requirement that a house in (b) omit paragraph (3).” multiple occupation is required to be licensed only if Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab): My Lords, Part 2 the building is of three or more storeys. While mandatory of the Housing Act 2004 repealed Part XI of the licensing applies to such HMOs if they are occupied Housing Act 1985 and introduced a new definition of by five or more persons in two or more households, a house in multiple occupation and, in April 2006, a local authorities have the power to introduce additional new scheme for controlling and licensing such houses licensing schemes to cover smaller HMOs. that were deemed a high risk. Houses in multiple It is of course appreciated that not all local authorities occupation include bed-sits, shared houses and hostels have made additional licensing schemes but, as the but not self-contained flats. They share one or more of noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said, it is also well known the basic amenities, such as the toilet and the washing that some of the worst management standards, living or cooking facilities. Those properties which met certain conditions, disrepair and overcrowding in the private conditions had to be licensed. These conditions included rented sector are found in smaller HMOs. This is why the building being three storeys or more high and the Government issued a technical discussion paper late occupied by five or more tenants, in at least two last year, seeking views on whether mandatory licensing households. The regulations have worked well but should be extended to smaller HMOs. Officials are more needs to be done. The private rented sector is currently analysing the results and the Government increasing, as we have all heard, and so are houses in hope to publish a response to the discussion paper in the multiple occupation. We need to provide protections spring. I can assure your Lordships that the Government to this growing group of tenants, who are particularly are determined to tackle abuses in the HMO market, as at risk. they are in any other part of the private rented sector. 2209 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2210

[BARONESS EVANS OF BOWES PARK] (5) In section 10 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 (fitness Extended mandatory licensing is an option to achieve for human habitation), after “waste water” insert “any this, through secondary legislation. We are considering other matter or thing that may amount, singly or cumulatively, to a Category 1 hazard within the meaning of section 2 that option but we want to fully consider all of the Housing Act 2004.” responses received before announcing how we will (6) Regulations may make provision for guidance as to the proceed. operation of the matters set out in section 10 of the Landlord I hope that on this assurance, and because I have and Tenant Act 1985 which are relevant to the assessment been able to say that the Government are looking at of fitness for human habitation. this and committed to stamping out abuse in HMOs, (7) This section shall come into force— the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment. (a) in England at the end of the period of three months from the date on which this Act is passed and shall apply to all tenancies licences and agreements for Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I thank all letting made on or after that date; and noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, including (b) in Wales on a date to be appointed by the Welsh the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the noble Baroness, Ministers.” Lady Maddock. I knew about the consultation and I am delighted that we will get a response back in the Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, it was with spring. I hope that it is a favourable one, and with that much surprise that I heard that the Government had I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. not agreed to an amendment in the other place which would have ensured that residential letting must be fit for human habitation. However, I am hopeful that Amendment 19 withdrawn. your Lordships will be able to persuade the Government of the error of their ways as we progress through Amendment 20 Committee and Report. Even at this early stage, I can Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark say that we feel so strongly about this that we will divide the House at the appropriate time if the 20: Insert the following new Clause— Government do not move from their present position. “Implied term of fitness for human habitation in residential The move to pass such an amendment in the other lettings place was defeated, as I said earlier. The Communities (1) Section 8 of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1985 (implied Minister in the other place, Mr Marcus Jones MP, said terms as to fitness for human habitation) is amended as follows. that the Government believed that homes should be fit for human habitation but did not want to pass a new (2) For subsection (3) substitute— law that would explicitly require that. That is just “(3) Subject to subsection (7), this section applies to nonsense. Unhealthy and unsafe housing needs to be any tenancy or licence under which a dwelling house is let wholly or mainly for human habitation.” tackled. The private rented sector is growing rapidly and tenants need protection to ensure that their home (3) After subsection (3) insert— is fit to live in. Damp, mould, excessive cold, overcrowding “(3ZA) Subsection (1) does not apply where the condition and lack of proper space, fire hazards and other of the dwelling-house or common parts is due to— hazards regarding electrical and other safety can all (a) a breach by the tenant of the duty to use the dwelling have major consequences for people, even death. -house in a tenant-like manner, or other express term of the tenancy to the same effect; or Local authorities clearly have a role in protecting (b) damage by fire, flood, tempest or other natural tenants in the private rented sector when landlords fail cause or inevitable accident. to maintain or provide properties that are safe and (3ZB) Subsection (1) shall not require the landlord or healthy to live in. However, local authorities are under licensor of the dwelling house to carry out works— considerable financial constraints, and this is never (a) which would contravene any statutory obligation or going to be enough. My amendment therefore seeks to restriction; or provide tenants with the means to take action themselves, (b) which require the consent of a superior landlord, and would place a specific duty on landlords to ensure provided that such consent has been refused and the that the property they let is fit for human habitation landlord or licensor has no right of action on the and will remain so during the course of the tenancy. basis that such refusal of consent is unreasonable. For me, that is a perfectly reasonable duty to place on (3ZC) Any provision of or relating to a tenancy or landlords. licence is void insofar as it purports— Amendment 22, in the names of my noble friends (a) to exclude or limit the obligations of the landlord Lady Hayter of Kentish Town, the noble Lord, Lord or licensor under this section; or Tope, and in my name, would introduce mandatory (b) to permit any forfeiture or impose on the tenant or electrical safety checks into the private rented sector. licensee any penalty or disadvantage in the event of Again, Members in the other place were unable to his seeking to enforce the obligation under subsection (1). persuade the Government on this issue, but we hope (3ZD) Regulations may make provision for the exclusion again to have more success in your Lordships’ House. of certain classes of letting from subsection (1). In fact, your Lordships’ House may be surprised that (3ZE) In this section “house” has the same meaning as such checks, unlike those for gas safety, are not already “dwelling house” and includes— mandatory, given the danger of electrocution as well (a) a part of a house, and as fires caused by faulty electrical installations. Indeed, (b) any yard, garden, outhouses and appurtenances according to the charity Electrical Safety First, which belonging to the house or usually enjoyed with it.” works to prevent electrical accidents, around 70 deaths (4) Omit subsections (4) to (6). per year involve electricity, compared to 18 from gas. 2211 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2212

That is over one a week. Yet,regrettably, the opportunity electrical checks to discover faults before they cause afforded by the Bill has not so far been used to protect accidents or fires. Our amendment would improve tenants from electrical hazards. standards and not be burdensome to landlords. Safety standards in the private sector depend on the Electrical Safety First estimates this would cost age of the property, its location and, importantly, the landlords about £3 per month over a five-year period. competence—or willingness—of the landlord to undertake Of course, the amendment is about saving lives and checks and repairs on electrical installations. We welcomed damage to tenants’ property, but it also would protect the measures introduced by the Government last year the landlords’ assets. Checks could spot problems before on carbon monoxide and smoke detectors. However, it they pose a serious risk through electrocution or fires. is hard to explain why no consideration has been given We are pleased that the department has been to electrical safety which, sadly, is the cause of more undertaking research into the merits of introducing deaths and injuries. Gas, carbon monoxide and smoke these checks, but it is now time for action. I hope the detectors all help make rented properties safe, but as Minister will undertake to bring forward proposals my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath said in while we have the Bill in front of us. this House on 7 September 2015, electricity must be The final amendment in this group is Amendment 30, included if we are to provide private tenants with which seeks to ensure that people living in properties under proper protection. a guardianship contract have some rights and protections. The Government’s rather unsatisfactory response It is fair to say that these guardianship schemes are then was that there is a legal duty on landlords to keep increasing in popularity. The guardian pays a licence tenants’ electrical installations safe. This simply will fee to occupy a part of a building, secure it and prevent not do—it is not enough. Not only does it mean that damage. Most of the buildings are not housing, and electrics in a rented property go unchecked for many the guardian is not a tenant, which means he has few years but it only guarantees prosecutions of landlords legal rights. My amendment seeks to redress the balance, after the event, whereas we want to prevent electrocution which I think is only fair and reasonable. I beg to move. or fires in the first place. Regrettably, while landlords Baroness Grender (LD): My Lords, we are also in England must ensure that electrical installations are supporting Amendment 20, and I would like to speak kept in safe working order, there is no legal requirement in support of Amendment 22 and electrical checks on on them to check the installations regularly.Furthermore, behalf of my noble friend Lord Tope. there is no requirement to demonstrate to tenants that the electrics are safe. This is not acceptable, and is At Second Reading, the Minister said, in response contrary to the Government’s autumn Statement on to this very point: safety in the private rented sector and to their supposed “Local authorities already have strong and effective powers to deal with poor-quality unsafe accommodation, and we expect desire to see a “bigger, better and safer” sector. them to use them”.—[Official Report, 26/1/16; col. 1270.] Furthermore, it is against what the public want. Of In the Committee stage in the Commons, the Minister those responding to the DCLG’s own consultation, of State, Brandon Lewis, said: 84% believed that mandatory electrical checks in the “Local authorities already have strong and effective powers to private rented sector were needed. However, there has deal with poor-quality unsafe accommodation, and we expect not been any action from the Government so far. The them to use those powers”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/12/15; Local Government Association supports mandatory col. 707.] checks to reduce the risk of electrical fires. Electrical I would like to stress to the Minister and to the Safety First’s call for mandatory checks is also supported Government that this is slightly the wrong end of the by the Chief Fire Officers Association, Shelter, Crisis, stick of the point that this amendment is trying to the London Fire Brigade, and British Gas, to say make. The amendment is trying to beef up existing nothing of tenants. legislation to ensure that tenants have greater rights. It is less about local authority involvement and much A third of private-sector tenants stay in their home more about liberating the consumer—the tenant—to for less than a year, with eight out of 10 being in their take action and get repairs delivered. It is not even current home for less than five years, so not only do an about the issue of compensation afterwards. It is about increasing proportion of our citizens live in the private where they live right now and having the legal weight rented sector, but it is a sector with a high turnover behind them to take action and get the repair in the and an average tenancy of only about three years. place where they are a tenant. I cannot stress that Therefore, checks by landlords for electrical safety are enough. Therefore, I simply suggest that, if the Minister essential. We know that privately rented homes are at comes back and says that local authorities have enough a higher risk of fire. There has been no reduction in power, that does not answer the question I am trying private rented sector fires since 2010 of those investigated to raise. by the London Fire Brigade. Indeed, of these 748 had This is not new legislation. It is not extra red tape. It an electrical source of ignition in the past five years, is simply about enabling tenants, as I made clear at while only 97 fires had a gas source of ignition. Second Reading. It revives an outdated law. It is about Why are the Government not taking this more seriously rights for consumers—something I suggest that this if they want a safer private rented sector? It seems that Government should be eager to embrace. Overstretched there is no strategy or response. I concur with Electrical local authorities could encourage tenants to challenge Safety First that tenants would be better protected conditions themselves and free their resources to focus with mandatory five-yearly checks of electrical installations on the very worst conditions. It would therefore act as and supplied appliances. We know that annual gas a deterrent to landlords letting out properties in poor checks work. Now is the time to implement mandatory conditions. 2213 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2214

[BARONESS GRENDER] Finally, sadly, in the Commons this went down a The key point is that the clause does not impose new cul-de-sac of the sort I described when I started speaking. requirements on landlords; it is not a further regulatory This issue deserves a much wider debate and I am very burden. The standards set out are effectively the same pleased to hear that the Opposition will also try to as those in the Housing Act 2004 via the housing health divide on this at a later stage. I beg to move. and safety rating system, the HHSRS. There were 51,916 complaints about housing conditions to the relevant Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords, councils in 2013-14 but only 14,000 inspections of Amendment 22, spoken to by my noble friend Lord PRS properties. In other words, yes, the local authorities Kennedy of Southwark, is on electrical safety in homes, have the power, but they do not have the resources, so a very important issue. Whereas on previous amendments, when complaints are made to them, very few inspections I have simply followed the debate and intervened are made as a result, and there is even less enforcement. during it, on this occasion I want to use more copious The prosecutions resulting from that in that one figure notes to deal with the issue. It just so happens that my average one per council per year. With 4.4 million son, Markus, a contracts manager for an electrical households in the private rented sector, surely we can contracting company in the London area, is somewhat provide some better basis for them to go to court and of an expert in this field. I asked him for a background get their landlord to make repairs. note on the developing need for this particular reform and this is what he told me, in some detail. When he 9pm joined the industry in 2003, Local authorities face increasing resource restrictions, “the market for electricians was polarised. Many larger contractors and there are varying degrees of enthusiasm among were signed up to self-regulation schemes like the NICEIC but them for applying these kinds of inspections. However, often smaller contractors saw no benefit in doing so. Business the rent level restrictions have made the relevant section customers often worked under strict procurement rules or had in the previous legislation practically useless, because insurance companies insisting that NICEIC registered contractors they are so low. I am sure that the noble Baroness is were used. But the average landlord had little compelling them to do so. Landlords asking industry representatives what they must familiar with the figures, but I will give them to her in do to comply with the law were not given a simple answer. case she is not. The section only comes into effect Contractors would explain that the Wiring Regulations were a when the rent on property in London is less than £80 a non-statutory document, but that in the event of legal action they year, or £52 elsewhere. In other words, because the could be used to show that electrical works had been completed rental level is so out of date, this provision has fallen to a recognised standard. In other words you could ignore them if into non-use, but it could come back into use if the you could handle the risk. noble Baroness will consider this. There were also no rules saying when you should use a NICEIC- registered contractor. Contractors could explain that NICEIC I do not want to take up much more of your regularly accessed the system, checked qualifications, provided Lordships’ time in the Chamber, and this is all about technical support and advice and, importantly, helped customers issues such as condensation, damp, mould, inadequate who felt works were below standard. As reassuring as that should be, heating and bad ventilation, with which the noble many customers would still choose not registered contractors. They were simply cheaper. There was little stopping a landlord employing Baroness is very familiar. The proposed new clause is anybody, qualified or not, registered or not, familiar with the complementary to the provisions of the Housing Act 2004 regulations or not, cowboy or not. It was just a question of risk”. and the powers available to local authorities, but is all So, in 2005, the Government introduced Part P of about powers for the tenants. It addresses a gap in the the Building Regulations—a very important development. current system where tenants are unable to effectively The wiring regs, BS7671, while still a non-statutory challenge disrepair. This is partly because they have to document, are now referenced within those building regs. ask the council to get involved, which uses a cumbersome This means that some higher-risk works within domestic and slow process and is underresourced to do it, and properties have to be completed to this recognised legal partly because legal aid is no longer available for these standard. Contractors now have two options. They can cases. notify building control of works to be carried out or Updating the law on fitness for human habitation join a government-accredited domestic installer scheme. would make it easier for tenants to get injunctions These schemes allow contractors to self-certify their from the courts ordering the landlord to carry out work and provide retrospective notice to Building Control. basic repairs, instead of needing a high burden of When Part P was initially introduced, it was simple expert opinion on behalf of the local authority, which for some companies to upgrade to domestic installer is where we currently stand at the moment. Would it status. However, many self-employed electricians and impact on landlords? No, it would not impact on the small contractors found that they could not practically landlords who already behave well and are at an carry out work within domestic properties without appropriate level. It would have no impact on them—if breaking the law. So, many of them applied to domestic anything, it would give them greater cover. It would installer scheme providers to become registered. Assessors affect those making a profit out of letting properties in visited their premises to see their work. Electricians poor condition. who had not updated their qualifications in years needed In the Commons, the Minister’s main rebuttal was to prove that they knew the regulations. Contractors that tenants have powers to get compensation through who had never issued certificates for their work were things such as rent orders, but again this misses the now asked to produce them and justify their contents. point. The point is that there is legislation already in Contractors were asked to show examples of their existence which needs dusting off and updating in work, calibration certificates and to demonstrate how terms of the financial levels. Tenants will then have a to use test equipment. Ofsted had arrived and it wanted really good right wrapped around them. to know that the kids who were in training were safe. 2215 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2216

Consumer expectations also changed after Part P. the installation been tested recently, the issue could The legal responsibility was now far clearer. A decade have been identified before it occurred and the landlord later, the number of registered contractors has more could have saved a lot of money—the cost of an than doubled. Many contractors are proud of their emergency callout and a new distribution board. achievements, with the introduction of higher working Testing is not just about finding faults; it is a standards. Many completed courses, such as the City method of maintaining an installation and preventing & Guilds 2394 and 2395, which teach how to test major issues from occurring, which can be very expensive installations for electrical safety. Both exams are more to deal with. They teach 16 year-old kids this at technical and beyond memorising of regulations. They colleges in London. In fact, if anyone in the Chamber require a technical understanding of safe electrical was to ask me—a mere mortal in these matters—my installation methods that underpin the regulations. advice on the electrics in their own home, the first The courses are a challenging process, particularly for thing I would ask is, “When was it last tested?”. trainee electricians, many of whom have only just left school at the age of 16. Some companies now exclusively Lord Tope (LD): My Lords, I, too, tabled Amendment 22 advertise for engineers with a deeper understanding of —the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, beat me to getting the regulations. As many engineers working for larger her name on it. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, firms are lone workers, these skills are useful for said, this amendment is supported by a very wide management to ensure and monitor the quality of work. range of organisations. That includes the Local Government That is the background. If Amendment 22 is adopted, Association, so I declare my interest as a vice-president the industry would require appropriately trained of the LGA. electricians to carry out fixed electrical wiring tests, We have just heard a very well-informed and powerful and demand for electricians who have completed City speech from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. & Guilds 2394 and 2395 will inevitably increase. The I am sure he is extremely grateful to his researcher—his adoption of my noble friend’s amendment would lead son, as he says—who gave him that information. Indeed, to a major upskilling in the training of electricians, in he makes a powerful case. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, the same way that happened after the introduction of spoke fully and very well on the information supplied, Part P in 2005, when many contractors were forced to particularly by Electrical Safety First. I have the same upskill in order to legally work with domestic properties. information but will not repeat it. Amendment 22 takes advantage of the huge increase in Part P-registered contractors seen over the past 9.15 pm decade by using the existing method of notification to I think the case is fairly overwhelming now. An Building Control. increasing number of people are living in the private Ten years ago the industry thought this notification rented sector, many not by choice but because they process would be burdensome, but online submissions have no choice. Quite a high proportion of private have proved to be quick and easier than expected. rented properties are old; indeed, many of them are Most contractors have moved away from handwritten pre-1919. Electrical standards were not good to start certificates to online and mobile device-based software, with, and are not necessarily as good as they should be with app store support where required. A typical test now. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, cited figures that on a domestic property can take between two and four I think came from the London Fire Brigade. They hours to complete, and the electrician can leave the bear repeating: they say that there has been no reduction site with an electronic document ready for the client. in fires in the private rented sector since 2010, which is The market for tests and inspections is very competitive, contrary to experience elsewhere. The noble Lord also with companies advertising flat rates for the work. said, and I shall say again, that of those investigated—and These rates vary across the country and comparisons not all are investigated—748 fires in London had an with property values probably provide a good insight electrical source. into the variance. A large and increasing number of people are living in private rented accommodation, much of which is The statistics on deaths due to electrical faults and quite old, and not necessarily in good condition. According electrical fires speak for themselves. The Committee to the London Fire Brigade—and we have no reason has an obvious opportunity tonight to tackle this, but to think that things are significantly different elsewhere— it must not underestimate the general lifting of standards very many fires are caused by electrical faults. One that a step such as Amendment 22 can bring. The Wiring wonders, therefore, why the Government have rightly Regulations are complicated for many and, given a acted on gas safety and carbon monoxide but not on chance, even experienced contractors will neglect them electrical safety. That is puzzling. As someone said to at times. Introducing compulsory testing will give the me recently, it leads one to believe that electricity just Wiring Regulations the further gravitas they deserve. does not make a big enough bang. That is a slightly If anyone in the Chamber is worried about the cost sick joke, but I wonder whether it is the real reason of inspections, which I understand was the position why the Government are so reluctant to act. the Government took when the matter was dealt with The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, referred in the Commons, they should think about this frequent not only to the quality and nature of electrical safety scenario. An electrician recently attended an emergency checks, but to their cost. The amendment calls for job. A tenanted flat had lost its power. A loose connection such checks to be done once every five years, and I am in the fuse-box arced and caused heat damage to the told that an electrical safety check costs in the region surrounding components. The unit installed was relatively of £150. That amount every five years is hardly a high new and the risks to the tenant were minimal, but had cost or a great burden for landlords. 2217 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2218

[LORD TOPE] who specialises in landlord and tenant law. Outside of In view of the time I shall not continue to press the the retaliatory evictions, the law on tenants’ complaints case, which has been well made, but will now turn to is currently enforced by local authorities, as other our Second Reading debate. I opened my speech on Members have said. Karen Buck MP from the other this subject, and received the following reply from the place commissioned a report, published last December, Minister in her summing up: on the challenge of tackling unsafe and unhealthy housing. “The Government are committed to protecting tenants and Local authorities were contacted across the country have agreed to carry out the necessary research to understand and asked a number of questions about complaints what, if any, legislative changes regarding electrical safety checks from private tenants. should be introduced”.—[Official Report, 26/1/16; col. 1270.] The number of complaints received in 2011-12 was May we ask the Minister, when she replies in a few minutes, 52,820; in 2012-13 it had gone up to 62,818; and in to tell us a little more about the nature of this research, 2013-14 it had gone down but only to 51,916. The and how it is being carried out? Will the findings be numbers of inspections carried out by local authorities published? Perhaps most importantly of all, when will over the same three-year period were 25,867, 31,634 it lead to the Government deciding whether further and 29,768 respectively. Only about half of the properties legislative changes are needed? As other noble Lords about which tenants had made complaints were inspected. have said, the obvious legislative vehicle for introducing any such changes is this Bill, which is currently before As my noble friend Lady Grender has said, the Parliament. Will those decisions—I am sure the Minister categories of hazards and faults identified were damp will not pre-empt them—be made in time to be included and mould, excess cold, crowding and space, falling in the Bill if the Government feel that they are necessary? hazards and fire. The number of improvement notices The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said that the served in 2011-12 were 1,519; in 2012-13, 1,645; and in Opposition would provide an opportunity if the 2013-14, 1,958. If local authorities had the resources Government do not provide their own. So will the Liberal to inspect the properties of all the complaints then no Democrats. We believe that this is a critically important doubt the number of improvement notices could have subject. It has not exactly been neglected, because it been doubled. However, the number of prosecutions has had some attention, but for far too long it has not undertaken was less than 100 in each of the three years. been acted upon. Some people are living in really dreadful conditions, I end by expressing the concern that we have had, as my noble friend Lady Grender has said. Under the and will continue to have, throughout the Bill: what current out-of-date legislation, tenants can take action about the tenants? Many tenants moving into a property themselves only if their rent is less than £80 a year in now often stay for only a year—the average tenancy in London and £52 a year elsewhere. I would be very the private rented sector, I am told, is about three hard pressed to find a property with a rent of £52 a years—so, given that they will be moving in and out, week in my area, never mind a year. Perhaps I might frequently changing houses and often living in older get a bedroom in an HMO with a kitchen and bathroom properties, what reassurance do they have that their shared, but that would be about it. landlord has carried out an accredited electrical safety We know from other sources that 11 million people check? live in private rented accommodation in England. Of It is clearly time to act. The Bill gives us an opportunity these, one in four are in families. Local authority to act and I hope the Minister will tell us that the budgets are overstretched. They are doing the best Government are moving firmly forward with the intention they can with shrinking resources but it is time that of acting. more is done to raise awareness about tenants’ rights and the law strengthened to give them the power to do Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD): this for themselves. If we remove the rent limit, we free My Lords, I support Amendments 20 and 22 and do up people to take responsibility for themselves. so with a slightly sinking feeling because it should not I turn to Amendment 22, which we have heard be necessary. about so eloquently from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- We have in the recent past discussed issues around Savours. The 11 million people in the private rented landlords not keeping their properties in a decent state sector are spending 47% of their income on rent—they of repair. I was pleased to speak to the retaliatory have the highest rents—compared with 23% of the income evictions amendments during the passage of the of people with a mortgage and 32% of the income for Deregulation Bill. These make it an offence for tenants those in the social rented sector. However, 30% of to be served with a notice of eviction if they bring a private rented properties in England would fail the fault with their home to the attention of the landlord. Government’s decent homes standard compared with They quite rightly expect him or her to rectify the 15% in the social rented sector. problem. It would appear that either tenants are unaware Landlords are required to carry out annual checks of their rights under this legislation or that the legislation on gas installations, as we have heard, and mercifully is being flouted by landlords. At all events, many there are very few incidents involving gas, whereas tenants are still paying rent and living in properties 350,000 people are injured through electrical incidents. that are far from what you and I would call fit for In 2013-14, 49 people were killed as a result of electrical human habitation. fires in the home. The amendment is asking not for We have heard a great deal of rhetoric today and, annual inspections, as is the case with gas, but for an because I consider this such a serious issue, I am afraid electrical safety inspection every five years. This would that I will repeat some of it now. This morning I received not be overly onerous. Surely the Minister will agree a useful brief from a partner at Anthony Gold Solicitors that saving lives is important. 2219 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2220

I live in a rented property in London that has both have been vulnerable to vandalism or other damage. gas and electricity supplied by the same company. There are now apparently 4,000 people living as property Before Christmas I received a postcard saying that an guardians, with what the Guardian report describes as engineer had cause to inspect the gas and electricity high prices and increasingly unsuitable living conditions. meters, and asking me to make an appointment for In the report, one guardian was complaining of seeing that to be done. I contacted the supplying company rooms “like chicken coops” in Kennington offered at and fixed a date for when the House returned in £500 a month. The premises have rows of plyboard January. I waited in and an engineer duly called and walls and no natural light or ventilation. inspected both meters, making a couple of comments. The matter was researched by an academic at Durham He was required to do this quite separately from those University, one Gloria Dawson, who found one space who came to read the meters. He was satisfied with the formerly occupied by three people now occupied by state of the meters and showed me how to switch the up to 15. There is often only one kitchen or one gas off should I need to do so, which I was quite bathroom in these multiply occupied large spaces. In pleased about because I did not know how to do it one case, six guardians had to use a temporary shower before. However, he did not inspect the electrical cabling, in a dirty, windowless room in a place where the toilet nor did I expect him to. I am satisfied that the meters light could not be made to work. are safe and working properly, and that I am not The report cited the case of a property in Hackney paying more than I should for the energy I consume. which had been used for five years by interns working What I do not know is the state of the wiring once it for the letting company. They were paying £130 a leaves the meter and goes into the rest of the flat. month for a property where they, as employees of the Many people have fears about certain aspects of company, were claiming that at times, rubbish was not everyday life. For some it will be the fear of water and collected, the electrics were faulty and there was no drowning, for others it will be being trapped in a dark hot water. It has now changed hands to a different and confined space, and for some it will be being company, and the cost of a room is £700 a month. caught in a fire. Whatever their fears, they are valid, Bad as all that is for guardians, it is also bad for and wherever possible we must do all that we can to councils, because the owners of these premises, which ensure that such fears do not become reality. This is a are usually commercial premises, cease to pay business simple and straightforward amendment that could rates. One company specifically advertised its ability save people’s lives and bring reassurance to thousands. to reduce empty property rates, claiming to have reduced I fully support both amendments. rates for an office block, a gym and some industrial Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, I warmly endorse units by converting to this guardianship scheme from the first two amendments in this group. I find it £694,000 to £33,000, from £150,000 in another case to inconceivable that the Government should stick to £2,650 and, in a third case, from £110,000 to £15,000. their position of declining to accept these basic Not only are people being exposed to very unsatisfactory amendments about the obvious need for properties to living conditions, with no recourse to having them be fit for human habitation and electrically safe. It is improved, but the local authorities are deprived of not asking too much of landlords to ensure this; as we significant income, which could and should be used have just heard from the noble Baroness, a five-yearly for services which are very much under pressure. There inspection would hardly be costly, and in any event is nothing to stop that change of use from business would no doubt be reflected in the rents charged over to residential purposes as, thanks to the coalition that period. At £150 or something like that, that would Government, planning permission is no longer required be only £30 a year. It is ridiculous to suggest that that for such conversions. would be too much of a burden for landlords to The amendment will not deal with the conversion accept. And how anyone could resist a requirement for of business properties to housing, something which properties to be fit for human habitation escapes me. we may well be discussing later in the Bill. An amendment However, I want to address the third amendment in to that effect may emerge from the Government Benches; this group, which is about property guardianship, and I hope the Government will take that seriously. However, particularly about the condition of the properties that the amendment is intended to ensure that residents are dealt with in that fashion. I have to confess that I acting in the role as property guardians enjoy at least was entirely unfamiliar with the concept of property the same protection in relation to their living conditions guardianship, or indeed the existence of property as other tenants, and that the landlords act, if not as guardians, until I read an article in a newspaper— guardian angels, at least as responsible owners who appropriately, the Guardian—in December. It seems pay due regard to the need to ensure that residents in that empty buildings, often large ones, are let out at their properties enjoy the same protection in relation low rents, but the renters have no security, with some to living conditions as other tenants. companies—it tends to be companies which operate these properties—offering just two-week notice periods. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Normal standards of safety and the condition of the for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams property do not appear to apply or to be achieved. of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken to the amendments, which have one 9.30 pm aim: to support and protect those living in the private The concept appears to have emerged some years rented sector. ago, with large, empty buildings being let on licences Amendment 20 would place a duty on landlords to which offered the owners of those buildings some ensure that their properties are fit for human habitation protection of the properties, which might otherwise when let and that they remain fit during the tenancy. 2221 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2222

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] I question whether a vulnerable tenant would prefer The amendment would also give legal rights to tenants to go through a lengthy court process rather than to be to take action directly against their landlord through in a position to get their landlord to carry out repairs the courts when properties are in an unfit condition. or to seek redress. My concern is that such a measure would lead only to rogues avoiding their responsibilities Clearly, all homes should be of a reasonable standard, and the sanctions that could lead to them being banned. and all tenants should have a safe place to live, regardless In addition, the amendment provides, among other of tenure, particularly when they are vulnerable and things, for the court to have regard to whether there is living in unacceptable conditions. As noble Lords have a category 1 hazard in the property. In order to establish already stated, an existing framework allows local whether there is a category 1 hazard, the local authority authorities strong powers to require landlords to make would need to have carried out an inspection using the necessary improvements to a property. Indeed, the last HHSRS methodology.In such cases, therefore, the tenant Labour Administration introduced the framework in would need to involve the local authority in the 2004 as a replacement for the old fitness standard. The proceedings. housing health and safety rating system assesses the As has been made clear in the other place, there is health and safety risk in all residential properties, and an appetite to ensure that landlords have a legal duty under the Housing Act 2004, following a HHSRS to carry out electrical safety checks on behalf of their inspection local authorities can issue an improvement tenants. Amendment 22, tabled by the noble Baroness, notice or a hazard awareness notice. In extreme Lady Hayter, and spoken to very eloquently by the circumstances, the local authority may decide to make noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, seeks to introduce the repairs itself, or to prohibit that property from this requirement for landlords to organise regular being rented out. electrical safety tests in their rental properties. I understand Local authorities have strong and effective powers the concerns that noble Lords have raised and the to deal with poor-quality, unsafe accommodation, issue of safeguarding tenants. I hope to come back to and we expect them to use these powers. However, this the House in due course with further details on our next Government have gone further, to enable local authorities step but, as noble Lords have mentioned, research is to take targeted action. Where rented housing in a being carried out with my officials to try to strike the particular area is characterised by poor property balance between protecting tenants, and not overregulating conditions, the local authority can now introduce a and causing unnecessary burdens for landlords. selective licensing scheme which enables it to target enforcement action. Last month we also announced a Lord Beecham: Does the Minister not acknowledge further £5 million funding for 48 local authorities to that it is more important to protect tenants’ safety tackle rogue landlords, on top of the £6.7 million than to protect against the modest financial cost that made available in the last Parliament. We have also landlords might incur, which in any event would probably consulted on extending mandatory licensing of houses be translated into rent? in multiple occupation, again focusing regulation where it is needed. Finally, we are strengthening measures Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I hope I that local authorities already have by taking forward have made it clear that tenants’ safety is of the utmost proposals through this Bill to enable local authorities importance. In fact, amendments tabled in the other to take further enforcement against rogue landlords, place led to that agreement by the Government to including through the database that we have talked carry out research into whether legislative changes about, the civil penalty notices and the extended rent were needed regarding electrical safety. I will ensure repayment orders. that noble Lords are updated on the progress of this because I totally recognise that tenants’ safety is of the I support the aim of this amendment—raising utmost importance. standards for tenants—but it would lead to additional costs for good landlords, who are the ones that will Lord Beecham: On that point, if the Minister will pay for inspections and certificates to prove the condition forgive me, will we have that information by the time of their property.I also have concerns that the amendment we reach Report? If it is after the Bill goes through, would give legal rights to tenants to take action themselves there will not be much point to it. through the courts for the following reasons. We have issued guidance to make tenants aware of their rights, Baroness Williams of Trafford: I am not getting any and to make landlords responsible, through the How indications from the Box. However, I do not feel very to Rent and Renting a Safe Home guides, both of switched-on at this hour of the night. Perhaps I could which are available on the gov.uk website. I have let the noble Lord know, because it would obviously already mentioned that there is a system whereby be ideal if we could have it for Report. If we had it tenants can raise concerns with their local authority further in the future, perhaps secondary legislation and it will carry out an inspection, with strong powers could be introduced in due course. and a duty to act if it finds a serious hazard. Civil Finally, Amendment 30 would require that the penalties of up to £30,000 and rent repayment orders requirements concerning fitness for human habitation will give local authorities significantly more resources and repairing obligations set out in Sections 8 to 17 of to ramp up inspection and enforcement. Noble Lords the Landlord and Tenant Act are applied to contracts may consider that local authorities have limited resources for guardianship schemes. I must at this point declare to carry out inspections, but through the civil penalties an interest because my son is a property guardian. I measures outlined in the Bill they would be able to may ring him when I get out of here to make sure that keep those penalties for housing-related activities. he is still alive, given all the things that I have heard. 2223 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2224

These schemes are private arrangements between a and Lord Campbell-Savours, the noble Lord, Lord building owner and one or more individuals. The Tope, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Government do not support the schemes, as the guardians Hardington Mandeville. I very much agree with the can be asked to live in conditions which do not meet noble Baroness, Lady Grender, who said that, yes, the standards expected in residential properties. We do local authorities have powers, but it is a cumbersome not therefore believe that it would be appropriate to process, and a lack of budgets at present means they require that Sections 8 to 17 of the Landlord and will not be effective. With this amendment we would Tenant Act should apply to guardianship agreements. empower only the tenants to seek redress themselves, I hope that my responses provide reassurances— which is a good thing, although I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, does not necessarily Lord Beecham: The Minister is saying that she has agree with me on that. every sympathy but that the Government are not The electrical safety amendment should not cause going to do anything about conditions which, as she the Government any problems whatever. I am pleased acknowledges, can be very unsatisfactory. I do not that the Government are looking at this area of additional understand why the Government are reluctant to intervene safety. My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours made here. a powerful contribution to the reason why the Government should agree to these electrical safety tests in the private Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, if the rented sector. We believe that these two amendments noble Lord is talking about the property guardianship raise issues of paramount importance, and we will schemes, it is because they are arrangements between divide the House on both issues if we do not get the a building owner and one or more individuals, and the necessary movement from the Government on Report arrangement is temporary. They are not intended to —we are very upfront about that straightaway. provide stable alternative accommodation. I end with the hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, will hold discussions with noble Lord Beecham: That may be the case but surely, as Lords before we get to Report so that that will not be the Minister’s remarks implied, they need to be fit for necessary and an agreement can be reached on both people to stay there. There must be some basic standards issues. We are very much willing to have those discussions. to protect people from being exploited in these conditions. However, we think these are serious matters, which It is not a formal tenancy but if nothing is done, need looking at. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the people will be exposed to risks to their health and amendment. possibly their safety. The Government must surely acknowledge that this matter is at least worth considering Amendment 20 withdrawn. before we get to Report, rather than rejecting it. Amendments 21 and 22 not moved. Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, because of the nature of the arrangement—as the noble Lord Amendment 23 said, there is no tenancy agreement in place—it is not Moved by Baroness Meacher a formal tenancy in that sense and we do not think 23: Insert the following new Clause— that the Landlord and Tenant Act actually applies “Rent arrears to it. The Secretary of State shall lay a report before Parliament annually about the impact of rent arrears on the health Lord Beecham: But provisions could be applied if and wellbeing of men, women and children.” the Government legislated to protect people in this position. Are the Government saying that they cannot Baroness Meacher (CB): My Lords, requiring the find a way to protect people from the kind of Secretary of State to lay annually a report before circumstances which I have described, and which the Parliament about the impact of rent arrears on the health Guardian report so clearly brought to light? It may not and well-being of men, women and children sounds be a question of amending the Landlord and Tenant like a rather academic point. However, every parent Act but surely it is possible to bring forward proposals who finds themselves unable to pay their rent will feel which could be incorporated into this Bill. an extraordinary sense of insecurity due to being unsure about keeping a roof over their children’s heads— 9.45 pm along with the threat of eviction, homelessness and so Baroness Williams of Trafford: I see the point, and forth. Therefore, this is a serious matter for each and as I say, my son is living in such accommodation, but every family affected. the reason owners do it is to protect against squatting Why is this happening? On the one hand, the housing as opposed to provide for permanent accommodation. shortage is causing rents to rise to levels never seen There is no tenancy agreement in place. However, I before. Council house tenants have seen their rents rise will go back and think further about this. It is a four times faster than average wages in the past five slightly anomalous situation in the general housing years, outstripping even the private sector. These rents market, given that many of the properties are not are putting huge pressure on the welfare bill and on housing. With those words, I hope that the noble Lord tenants themselves. The Government have redefined will feel able to withdraw the amendment. the word “affordable”, extraordinarily. For a council tenant, it used to mean half the open market rent. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I thank all Now, the term “affordable” means 80% of market noble Lords who have spoken in this debate: the noble rents. In fact, such rents are of course utterly unaffordable Baroness, Lady Grender, my noble friends Lord Beecham in London, so they need to change the word. 2225 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2226

[BARONESS MEACHER] Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, although my name is The LGA estimates that 60,000 households will be not shown on this amendment, I should like to support forced into rent arrears in the next few years, and I it because, as the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, said, imagine that that number will soar thereafter as all the it is very important. welfare benefit cuts increase over time. The Bill will There are two reasons why it should be reasonably price social housing tenants out of their home areas. straightforward for the Government to fulfil the proposal For families relying on grandparents to care for children, in this amendment. The first is that local authorities or relatives to look after disabled or elderly family have health and well-being boards that are charged members, moving from the local area has serious social with a duty to assess the general health and well-being consequences and may simply be completely impractical. of their area, so a structure exists. The second is that a Similarly, for some children, changing schools can have wealth of research has been undertaken connecting a devastating impact on their education. The RSA well-being with poverty. The amendment talks about envisages that the numbers of children affected will the impact of rent arrears, for perfectly good reasons. grow. Instead of moving, many families will run the Of course, the issue is more generally debt and rent risk of moving into rent arrears. levels, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has drawn attention; this is clearly an important Into this mix comes the Government’s decision to contributory factor. However, it is not just a financial cut housing benefit while simultaneously freezing the issue. Too often, Governments look at the question of annual increases in already very low benefit incomes, well-being and think it relates to rents and to the which are then subject to council tax payments. financial issues surrounding the payment of rents. Paul Nicolson has made this point very strongly in There is a huge wealth of evidence that suggests that it the media. The consequences of these decisions are is a well-being issue. Governments have to address the the development of rent arrears, the draconian matter from that perspective. Citizens Advice has produced enforcement of debt and the malnutrition of parents statistics on payday loans and the rise in the work of and maybe children. loan sharks, which it says has gone up 10 times since The point of this amendment is that the impact on 2008. This matters. Politicians and Governments have public health is simply not yet known and we need a duty to ensure that the population are not exposed to have it measured. When the noble Lord, Lord to higher levels of mental and physical ill health, Ramsbotham, moved a similar amendment to the driven by poor diet because money does not exist in Welfare Reform and Work Bill, the noble Lord, Lord the household, to ensure that their health and well-being Freud, responded with references to the Government’s is being protected. commitment to reduce health inequalities and to This is a perfectly reasonable amendment. Delivering ensure that ill health does not hold our children back it is the kind of thing Governments exist for. If from fulfilling their potential. Does the Minister Governments do not do it, I am not entirely sure who accept that, if parents have insufficient money to pay should. In my view, Parliament has a duty to examine for food for their children, to heat the house and to this on an annual basis and to assess whether health keep a roof over their heads, this will surely, over and well-being is being impacted upon negatively by time, impact seriously on their children’s health and the fact that debt levels and rent arrears are rising. well-being? Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, I warmly support The noble Lord, Lord Freud, talked about tackling the Amendment 23, to which I have added my name. I root causes of poverty—worklessness and educational hope your Lordships will forgive me for making this underattainment. The majority of those in poverty today point but when I think of my formative political years are in work. A root cause of poverty in this country is in the late 1940s and early 1950s, when we had such clear not worklessness, but the ever-diminishing level of aspirations for our society, I find it almost inconceivable in-work and out-of-work benefits, combined with low that here we are, still one of the wealthiest nations in pay.The Government are making things worse and risking the world, having to discuss whether or not, as a result an unnecessary hike in rent arrears because, under of policy, we are facing a deteriorating situation in the universal credit, the plan is to eliminate any possibility nutrition, health and mental health of people in this that housing benefit could be paid directly to landlords. country. I find it appalling. I can hardly believe that Conscientious parents who want to secure the roof over this is happening and that this is the reality, when we their family’s head will no longer be able to ask for their had all those aspirations—which broadly went across housing benefit to be paid directly to landlords. There is political lines in those years. I think it is disgraceful no doubt in my mind—none at all—that rent arrears will and I hope the Government take seriously that, at the be very much higher under this new regime than under day of reckoning, they will have a lot to answer for. the old. I had an inner-city constituency when I was a In conclusion, this amendment only requires the Member of Parliament and I saw then the clear connection Government to report to Parliament annually about between poverty, educational attainment, health and the impact of rent arrears on the health and well-being mental stability. I also saw the impact as families—which of those affected. Only if the Government and Parliament we keep saying are so important in our priorities—with have this information can we hope that remedial action totally inadequate means tried to cope with mental will be taken to mitigate the consequences of government breakdown and mental illness in their midst. policy. I ask the Minister to give serious thought In policy-making we need to proceed on sound to this amendment, rather than simply dismissing the evidence. The anecdotal evidence, the evidence of practical idea. I beg to move. experience, is overwhelming. I keep being disturbed by 2227 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2228 the reports I read about teachers seeing children coming wonder whether the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, to school hungry and undernourished—how can we has talked to the noble Lord, Lord Freud, about the possibly hope for advancement in educational achievement interlocking of this amendment with one of the issues in this situation? Teachers are now out of their own that we were discussing on the Welfare Reform and pocket on occasion, financing breakfast for the children Work Bill. I rather suspect that it may not have happened concerned. We need all the hard evidence we can find. because of one of the two defeats of the Government As a society, we are increasingly concerned about on the Welfare Reform and Work Bill, as opposed to mental illness, which seems to be increasing by disturbing very welcome movements they made towards a common dimensions. Of course, mental illness is related to the consensual ground around this House, which we very basic issue of the security of a decent home. much appreciated, as, indeed, we did on kinship care, I have mentioned my experience as the MP for an guardians, carers and so on. However, one of the two inner-city area but I saw this issue arising in another issues on which the Government were defeated fairly context, when for nine years I had the privilege of early on in the Welfare Reform and Work Bill was being the president of the YMCA in England. The child poverty indicators. As the Minister may or may YMCA has a very big housing programme, and I not know, the previous Labour Government had four could see that it was just ridiculous to regard administering poverty indicators: absolute poverty, relative poverty, a housing programme as just managing it. There were persistent poverty and material deprivation. The always huge social dimensions attached to that housing Government proposed to replace this with indicators programme. Why were people there, needing our support? of life chances from the DWP. It is perfectly proper to Why were people in the state they were in? These track those life chances but we argued that that must questions were constantly before us. include poverty as well. We need the maximum amount of real evidence of what is happening on the front line, and it is altogether I remind the Minister that the Government’s agenda sensible and encouraging that the noble Baroness—not on poverty was debated on the Welfare Reform and for the first time, I might say—is challenging us to do Work Bill. The Government wanted to assess life-chance something practical to see from the front-line evidence risks, which would include a parent being unable to what the situation is. work, addiction and mental health problems, being unqualified, being without work and being unemployed. 10 pm The other one was unmanageable personal debt, which Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, the noble Baroness, was classified as being behind on rent, or needing Lady Meacher, and my noble friend Lord Judd have alternative payment arrangements in universal credit. set out in graphic detail the nature of the problem. I We know that both these things are happening. We want to say a few words on one of the tangential know therefore that the Government recognise, or benefits of this annual report being produced. I suspect believe—I think, possibly, falsely—that this is a driver that the Minister will say at the Dispatch Box, “No of poverty and not just a consequence of it. If the way; you’re not going to have your annual report”. I Government believe that it is a driver of poverty, they presume that the Minister’s notes will contain the need to know what is happening if they are to know as instruction “resist the amendment and say no”. But a Government at what point they intervene and what there is another benefit of all this that Ministers might levers to press to address it. Therefore, we need this wish to take into account. With all this talk about buy information. The problem for all Governments, including to let, people throughout the country are being led my own, is that we tend to do the things that are easy. into a world where they believe that quick profits are We do things we can count, not the things we need to to be made out of rental income. However, a lot of assess. For example, you know, if you are doing key people are deluding themselves. As I said before, a lot performance indicators in any measurement, that if of these buy-to-let tenancies have been let as a result you put in, “The telephone has to be answered in fewer of pressure from television programmes, friends at than eight rings”, people will do that because it is easy. dinner parties or whatever. A lot of buy-to-let tenants You count it and you can put the numbers in and you are in arrears and are suffering. will get your 90% performance target. If you suggest I am sure many noble Lords will know of people something such as assessing what is happening to who are in arrears. I know of two properties where health and well-being, they will not touch it, because it people moved in only recently and received notice is qualitative and therefore regarded as less real, being letters directed to the previous tenants. In both cases, less quantifiable than telephone rings. the tenants were being referred to the courts for being in debt. There is a huge booming problem out there of The DWP, in a parallel development, is seeking to rising debt arising out of rent arrears. This measure is address the issue of unmanageable personal debt as a one way of indicating to the world that there really is a driver of poverty. If there are implications for mental problem. So this is not just about health in the way set health and well-being, as this amendment suggests, it out in the amendment; it is about providing a way of will be crucial for DCLG to investigate what is happening indicating that in the real world there are problems to in this area, which is not about housing benefit but do with arrears that people who are led mistakenly about housing policy, including rent arrears and all into this market have to recognise before they take the other issues that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, foolish decisions which they can ill afford. has raised tonight. I hope the Minister takes this very seriously, because if she does not, the two government Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab): My Lords, I also departments will be pulling in diametrically opposed support this amendment. Earlier today we finished directions. I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, Third Reading of the Welfare Reform and Work Bill. I would not wish that to happen. 2229 Housing and Planning Bill[LORDS] Housing and Planning Bill 2230

Lord Beecham: My Lords, I understand where the consider applying some criteria by which the condition noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, is coming from in of properties let—maybe for a night or two, or maybe moving her amendment. It seems to me that the issue for a slightly longer period—can be monitored. Such is not so much one of rent arrears as one of rent levels, criteria would need to be of a standard that ensured which of course very often lead to rent arrears. It may that basic conditions were maintained. well be the case that families go short, but they do so One reads of dreadful things going on in some partly because they are fearful of eviction and will pay places. There was a court case recently—in London, I the rent first and look after other family needs second. think—involving a flat that had been let for what It might have been better to think again—perhaps we turned out to be a wild party and was significantly will when we get to Report—about the terminology damaged. That would not necessarily be covered by here. It is not just rent arrears that will cause problems legislation but it may be that, beginning with looking but a combination of the income in the house and at a requirement for such lettings to be in properties what other expenditure there may be, including for that are at least fit for human habitation and safe in example, the impact of the bedroom tax on households. terms of their electrics and the rest of it, one might The noble Baroness is absolutely right, however, that ultimately revisit the issue of whether planning permission whatever components one looks at, it is necessary to might not be needed. I know that now it is not have regard to the impact on the health and well-being required in London anyway but that is a separate of people, particularly those in rented property, given issue—or a further issue—from the condition of these the huge increase in rents in recent years. places and what individuals going there for short I can give an example from my own family’s indirect periods might be exposed to. It is not just a question of experience. My son had a raised ground-floor flat in Airbnb for one or two nights; there is also the issue of Islington comprising 286 square feet, which would fit holiday lets up and down the country, which at the relatively comfortably in the third of the ground-floor moment, as I understand it, are not really governed by reception rooms in my house in Newcastle. The purchaser any requirements as to the fitness of the accommodation. of the flat put it on the market at a rent, as far as I If we are looking at housing across the piece, it would recall, of over £1,000 a month—roughly £4 a square be desirable, to put it mildly, to look at the condition foot. It is a tiny flat and only really suitable for one of those properties as well as at the basic stock that is person, which I suspect is not untypical of housing in on the rental market. many parts of London these days. I would guess that I hope that, with our commitment this evening, the is a huge proportion of the income of many people— Minister will agree to look at this before Report with a certainly those who are not in well-paid jobs. view to possibly extending some of the protections That may well exemplify the kind of problem that is that exist for regular tenancies to these short-term lets all too often faced in the light of these absurdly high of either kind. I beg to move. rent levels. It has to be recognised that they have gone up very markedly in the last few years, particularly, Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: Does the noble but not exclusively, in the capital. The amendment Lord, Lord Kennedy, wish to mention waterways before moved by the noble Baroness is very apposite to I respond? developing conditions, which may well have an impact Lord Kennedy of Southwark: The amendment on on people’s health and well-being, as she suggests, and waterways came about because at a meeting of tenants which therefore should be taken into account, with a from around London I met a group of people who live view to doing something about these rent levels. That on the waterways. I mentioned the Second Reading of is the problem. I concede it is most acute where the Bill and they said they felt aggrieved as they had that leads to eviction, but it is there before you get to been totally ignored by most of their local authorities. that point, very often for long periods. They live on waterways such as the Thames, in the My Amendment 32 calls, in perhaps not the most dock areas, and they feel that when it comes to services elegant drafting, for an examination of the different they are not involved or consulted. I know that this is types of house tenure to see how this has affected the not a major issue in the Bill, but I would be grateful if market and the levels of rent, and indeed the condition someone could meet some of these people before we of properties. It is designed particularly to draw attention get to the next stage. Perhaps there could be some to the situation that can arise in the context of short-term regulations or guidance to point them in the right lettings, such as those through Airbnb, which for other direction. They had a valid point and such a meeting reasons has often been raised in your Lordships’ House, might be helpful to them. most notably by the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, who is not now in her place. There must be 10.15 pm concern about how these properties are managed and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I thank all noble their impact in other ways upon the local community. Lords for their contributions, and I shall begin by Particularly on an individual basis, there is no apparent addressing Amendment 23. The Government, too, support way at the moment in which these short-term lettings a better and more sustainable rented sector which can be monitored in terms of the condition of the offers all tenants quality and choice. Parts 2 and 3 of property, its safety and the like. the Bill demonstrate our commitment to this. I have I hope the Minister will not repeat what she said listened carefully to the arguments this evening, but I before about the other types of property that we were remind noble Lords that the Government already discussing. Logically, I suppose, she might be driven to produce the English housing survey and the Measuring that extreme, but I hope she will recognise that perhaps National Well-being: Life in the UK index annually. We we need to look at whether it might be timely to believe these can achieve what noble Lords are suggesting. 2231 Housing and Planning Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Housing and Planning Bill 2232

The English housing survey includes narrative chapters which may include data on tenure in their area. The and data on the financial circumstances, satisfaction department has contacted local authorities to remind and well-being of householders. This covers private and them of their existing powers. I would also add that social renters, and owner-occupiers. Currently our the 2011 census provides a full tenure split at local analysts do not look directly at the link between rent authority level, and some local authorities have updated arrears and well-being, but we will publish a housing this record. and well-being report in the summer. The analysis for In connection with Amendment 33, my noble friend this is about to start. Our intention is to include the Lady Williams of Trafford and I would be happy to impact of rent arrears and housing insecurity more meet the organisations concerned. Perhaps we could generally in this analysis. I trust this will help inform have a further conversation following this debate, just the House about the impact of arrears on well-being. to ensure that we invite the right people. With all that in mind, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Will the Minister ensure her amendment. that a letter is sent to all those who have taken part in the discussion tonight, outlining the terms of reference Lord Beecham: Before the noble Baroness sits down, of that working party and saying when it is due to I draw her attention to the precise wording of report, what it will look at and when we can expect to Amendment 32. Subsection (3)(b) of the proposed see its findings? new clause goes beyond the general information to which she referred and talks specifically about, Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: Yes,Iamhappyto “an assessment of the number of properties being let as short-term commit to do that. I can also reassure the noble holiday lettings and the extent to which legislation relating to the Baroness that the DCLG and the DWP will communicate condition of rented properties applies to short-term holiday on the cross-departmental issues that she raised. lettings”. The other document I mentioned, Measuring National That is not a local matter but a national matter with Well-being: Life in the UK, 2015, reports on well-being local implications. I invite the two noble Baronesses at in relation to where people live and how they cope least to say today that they will look at that issue and financially. As well as those two reports, the European consider it before we get to Report. It is a discrete issue Commission produces Quality of Life in Europe: Subjective inaway. Well-being. In that report, housing security is measured by the question, Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I will take it back. I “How likely or unlikely do you think it is that you will need to would reiterate that it is a private matter, but we will leave your accommodation within the next 6 months because you have further conversations. can no longer afford it?” As a result of our debate today, we have asked the Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I am happy not to department whether it might be possible to pose a press my amendment after the explanation the noble similar question in the English housing survey. Baroness has given us. With regard to Amendment 32, proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, I Baroness Meacher: My Lords, I thank the noble agree it should be easier for local authorities to identify Lords, Lord Shipley, Lord Judd, Lord Campbell-Savours the type of housing in their area, in order to exercise and Lord Beecham, and the noble Baroness, Lady their housing functions better. However, we believe Hollis, for their considered, well-informed and powerful local authorities already have appropriate powers in contributions to this short debate. I am not at all existing and proposed legislation to seek information convinced that the Government’s housing survey will on housing tenure, and they can analyse that data to provide the necessary focus on the soaring levels of inform their local requirements. We believe that requiring rent and rent arrears and their impact on families and the Government to commission and follow up a central children and on the Government’s emphasis on health, collection and collation of this data would impose an well-being, educational attainment and so on. unreasonable cost, in both time and resource, on taxpayers. The Government and Parliament really need to We are taking the more effective approach of making understand what is happening now and what will tenancy deposit data available to local authorities happen over the next few years in these regards. However, through this Bill, for them to make use of as they it is a late hour. We will have to come back to this see fit. issue, and I will no doubt have a conversation with the It also not clear what would be gained by collecting noble Lord, Lord Beecham, about precisely what the this information at national level. Local authorities, wording of the amendment should be. With that, I beg by definition, have localised issues, and housing statistics leave to withdraw the amendment. will only be relevant and meaningful in local areas. Schedule 2 to the Local Government Finance Act 1992 Amendment 23 withdrawn. contains provisions for the Secretary of State to make legislation relating to the collection and administration House resumed. of council tax, and regulations are already in place that give authorities the power to collect information House adjourned at 10.22 pm.

GC 125 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 126

We are talking about vulnerable children: the winter Grand Committee is coming on; they are cold; they are hungry. Traffickers will play their part, alas, in trying to capture some of Tuesday, 9 February 2016. them and they may be forced into prostitution. I understand that Europol has estimated that some 1,000—I may have got the figure wrong; it could be more than that—of such children have disappeared. Is Immigration Bill it not a terrible thought that in Europe, at this time Committee (5th Day) and in this year, with all the sophistication and humanitarian instincts that we are supposed to have, 3.30 pm there are children adrift, vulnerable and in danger and that very little is being done to help them? We cannot Relevant documents: 7th Report from the Constitution stand by and, as I said, there are many signs that the Committee, 17th, 18th and 19th Reports from the British people want to help and see this as our collective Delegated Powers Committee British responsibility. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Henig) The Minister said yesterday in reply to a question (Lab): My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber, that there are difficulties in Kent in getting enough the Committee will adjourn and resume after 10 minutes. foster parents for children who have arrived there by other means. All I can say is that I have been around quite a bit and people come to me and say that, if an Amendment 239 appeal is made, they want to be foster parents and Moved by Lord Dubs know people who want to be foster parents. The Government need to say in a loud voice that they want 239: After Clause 43, insert the following new Clause— people to volunteer and will see whether there are “Unaccompanied refugee children enough children for all the people who offer. It may (1) The Secretary of State must, as soon as possible, make well be that there has been some publicity in Kent but arrangements to relocate 3,000 unaccompanied refugee children who are in European countries to the United Kingdom. I am not aware of much publicity in London or the north of England to suggest that the Government are (2) The relocation of children under subsection (1) shall be in addition to the resettlement of children under the Vulnerable looking hard for foster parents. I urge the Government Persons Relocation Scheme.” to say publicly, “This is what we need because we owe it to these children and we can accommodate them well”. We do not want children to come here to be put Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, there are times when into care or residential institutions. It is right that this country is faced with significant humanitarian there should be foster parents and I urge the Government challenges and this is one now. It comes not only from to make a stronger appeal. the refugee crisis throughout Europe but from the Many years ago I had the honour of being a perilous position of unaccompanied children. councillor on Westminster City Council and we were Before I proceed, perhaps I may thank the many looking at the question of foster parents for local NGOs, including ILPA, the Refugee Council, Save the children. Eventually the council was persuaded—I Children, my right honourable friend Yvette Cooper— have to say by the Labour opposition—that it would who chairs Labour’s refugee taskforce—and many be better not to go on building lots of children’s others. I should declare an interest, as I came to this homes but to make a positive appeal for foster parents. country as an unaccompanied refugee myself. The council appealed for foster parents from outside Ever since I tabled the amendment, I have been Westminster, because it is difficult to find all that delighted and surprised at the enormous number of many there, and there was a good response. Indeed, messages of support that I have received and at the the council’s policy moved away from having conversations in which I have become involved where residential institutions for children where that could people say, “This is really good. When’s it coming up be avoided. and are you going to win?”. I believe that there is a real It is clear that this will put a big responsibility on mood in the country that we can do more for refugees local authorities and I would not shirk that. They and I think that it focuses particularly on what we can would have the job of vetting whether parents are do for children—other groups are important as well, suitable. These days we are far more conscious that but the focus is on what we can do for children. I have children have to be safely looked after and that we been overwhelmed by this; I can hardly find words to cannot take any risks with them—local authorities do describe it. The Government should take into account that already for children going into foster care. It will that a significant part of public opinion would be on be the job of local authorities to vet families coming the side of the Government if they accepted this forward to be foster parents and to monitor them to amendment. ensure the safety of children. That is what local authorities The evidence is that there are 24,000 unaccompanied do anyway. It is proper that they should do it and you child refugees in Europe. Of course, the figures could apply that process to any new children coming cannot be precise, but it has been estimated that our in, particularly the ones who are the subject of this fair share of the total would be 3,000. That is the basis amendment. It is a crucial function for local authorities, for the amendment. These figures came from Save the because we want children to be safe and properly Children and the United Nations High Commissioner looked after and we want to be able to make that for Refugees. guarantee. GC 127 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 128

[LORD DUBS] amendment. Some of the messages have been humbling, I welcome the Government’s vulnerable persons as they say, “We must do something; we got here and relocation scheme. I have been talking to people involved we want to make sure that others in dire straits have in the process in local authorities and, although I the same opportunity”. In 1938-39, most countries think the numbers are too small, it is an important refused to help and it was only the United Kingdom scheme and if sensibly applied will be of great benefit. that allowed the children entry. We were alone and we But I am talking about different children, who would set an example that other countries did not follow. be additional to the 20,000 figure that the Government This country said that it could be done and, as a talk about. result, thousands of children could thank Britain for There are two specific reasons behind this amendment. that humanitarian gesture. When I meet them, they go The first is to establish and get support for what is an on thanking Britain. A plaque off Central Lobby was important principle and we need numbers to make put up some years ago as a thank you from those sure that it is going to work on any worthwhile scale. Kindertransport children to the British people. It is Secondly, we need to understand the Government’s worth having a look at that to see what happened. position. The Minister has explained it on occasion, I have had a chance, thanks to ILPA, which sent but I am bound to say that it is not all that clear. some quotes from Hansard, to look at what happened A government release said: when these debates took place in 1938-39. I do not “In addition, the UK Government will commit to providing want to take too much of the Committee’s time, but I further resource to the European Asylum Support Office to help have one or two quotes, because in some ways nothing Greece and Italy identify migrants, including children, who could has changed. In 1938, Mr Noel Baker asked: be reunited with direct family members elsewhere in Europe “Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that these children in under the Dublin Regulation”. Germany in many cases are in really terrible conditions, without That is fair enough. It continues: adult protection and without the means of finding food, and is he “Where it is in their best interests, this will include bringing aware that the machinery of the Home Office for granting visas is them to the UK”. so inadequate that the visas cannot be obtained in sufficient quantities to save their lives?”—[Official Report, Commons, 14/12/1938; Of course the best interests of children must be col. 342.] paramount, but it is not clear to me what policy is As I said, some of these things today are not that being announced by the Government in that statement. different from what they were then, but I know that Yes, it is important that children should be reunited the Minister is going to change things. There were with their parents if that is possible but, as regards other questions. Colonel Wedgwood asked in November those coming to the UK, I am not sure that that makes 1938 whether the Prime Minister was, for a policy. I would like the Government to use this “aware that delays of three months and over occur in the issue of occasion to spell out what the policy actually means. visas to Jewish children from Germany after all guarantees have My amendment is for particularly vulnerable people been given; will he state the reasons for the delay; and can the and, although the figure of 3,000 is relatively small, it business be expedited, in view of the increasing danger to the would make an important contribution to tackling children?”—[Official Report, Commons, 23/11/1938; col. 341.] this most vulnerable group. The best interests of the So there was pressure there—and there are one or two child must be paramount. Although this is not the others still. There was a rather nasty quote from a subject of the amendment, it is important for children politician whom I shall not name, to which Mr Wedgwood not to be told, “You can stay until 18 and then off you Benn said: go somewhere else”. It is clear that if we take responsibility “In the interests of the good name of this country, will the for children and they spend some years being brought hon. Gentleman do his best to discourage questions such as this?”—[Official Report, Commons, 24/11/1938; col. 341.] up here, being educated here, living with a British family and having British siblings, as it were, it is I shall give just a couple more, because it is quite important that they should have the chance to stay useful to find out what happened some years ago. The here if that is their wish. For heaven’s sake, we hope Archbishop of Canterbury made a plea, in this case that Syria will become a peaceful country, but that for Czech children, saying that, seems a long way off and therefore we should accept “nothing but benefit could accrue from the absorption of a good many of these intelligent children”.—[Official Report, 5/7/1939; responsibility for these children. col. 1024.] There are some children in European countries who It is only a few months ago that Sir Nicky Winton have family members in this country. We have found died, aged 106. He was the person who brought children four in Calais and they have been brought here. But from Prague, mainly in 1939. I went to his 106th birthday this amendment is not intended to cover those children, party two months before he died. For me personally, it as they already have a right to join their families under was important that I was able to be there and celebrate existing agreements. I only hope that we make sure his birthday. I could see that he was sinking but, my that there are no other children with family members goodness me, he was still sharp. A couple of years here who have just been missed out in the process. before, on his 104th birthday, I said, “Nicky, how are We all know that in 1938-39 there was a crisis in you?” and he said, “I’m fine from the neck upwards”. Europe, as many children, mainly Jewish, in Germany, What a man. He lived in Maidenhead and on his Austria and Czechoslovakia, were helped to escape to 103rd birthday the Home Secretary came along to his safety through the Kindertransport. There has been birthday party, so I was in good company. Sir Nicky quite a lot of publicity about that recently, particularly Winton saved many children from Czechoslovakia, on Holocaust Memorial Day. Quite a number of those including me, and I would like to feel that other children who came over in that way, as I did, have been children in Europe now are to be given the same in touch with me to say how much they support this welcome and opportunities that I had. I beg to move. GC 129 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 130

3.45 pm If we do, we condemn these children not only in the Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD): It gives me the present time. If they live through the present time to a greatest pleasure to support the amendment in the childhood scarred with memories it will not be to the name of the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. Sometimes a well-being of the rest of us. Action needs to be taken situation will sweep through a country and bring for the tens of thousands of children as if it was for compassion and tears to so many people. This is the just one child, for just one of my seven grandchildren. case especially after the last weekend, when we saw the It is a big undertaking, of course it is, but Canada continuing destruction of Aleppo, with scores of has taken 25,000 refugees in two months. It was great, thousands of people crowding on the border between seeing that happen and hearing that an appeal went Syria and Turkey. They will somehow move from out on the radio in Canada when that first plane there. They will join that trek, like hundreds of thousands arrived at Lester Pearson Airport in Toronto: “Please, before them, to some sort of hope. Many of them will will no more people come to the airport? We’re under be children. siege with people wanting to welcome these people I know that in Wales we sometimes have very sad from Syria”. The heart of the people is with those cases where a child has been abducted or put in some people who are tramping across borders or suffering danger and people say, “We’ve got to do something to in the camps. save this child”. Whole communities will rally round In 1939, we said that we would accept our responsibility to save that child, and so we should. Except it is not for people threatened by the blitz on our large cities— one child, but scores of thousands of children. But if Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham and London, of we will do it for one child, so we should be prepared to course—and in two months there were arrangements embrace the children that are there—we cannot see for evacuating 3 million people. We could do it. If we the one child because of the hordes of other children. could do it for 3 million people in 1939, we can do it It is a matter of individuals, of little toddlers. I have for 3,000 children now. I do not think there is any seven grandchildren myself. They are usually fairly reason for us not to do it. I cannot think of a valid well behaved—not always—but you would defend them reason to come to this Committee and say, “Oh, yes, and speak for them. You would do anything. You it’s this; it’s this; it’s this”. They are tiny children, like would rather be hurt yourself than they be hurt. our children. I urge the Government to think again. I We now have a situation with many unaccompanied assure noble Lords that Heathrow, Gatwick or Stansted children. I think of the parable of the good Samaritan. would be under siege by the warm-hearted people of I should not bring my Sunday sermon here, but in that the UK wanting to embrace and welcome them. I urge parable we remember that a traveller on the road—I the Government from the bottom of my heart to think am not preaching—from Jerusalem to Jericho fell again on this. among thieves. There he was, left at the side of the The Earl of Sandwich (CB): My Lords, I can see the road. He had been robbed of everything. Two temple point of the Government’s plan to collect child refugees officers came by and said, “We’d better not touch him. from the Middle East, but the thousands of children We could be contaminated if he is dead”. They kept who were seen on our television screens in October on talking. I imagine that they would have met in and November last year were already in Europe. The Jericho and one would have turned to the other and impression at the moment is that the Government said, “You know, it’s a dangerous situation on that are refusing to respond to what has become a public road from Jerusalem to Jericho. Let’s set up a committee demand. I strongly support the noble Lord, Lord to safeguard these people who travel along that road”. Dubs. This is not just an emotional issue; it is a case of Now, we want committees; of course we do. What practicality. The Government are talking about an would we do without them? The House of Lords admirable resettlement scheme, but, except in the case would be abolished tomorrow if we abolished committees. of family reunion, they are ignoring unaccompanied But that person was still at the side of that road until a minors and ignoring this plea. Samaritan came who cared for him, took him to the inn and made sure that he was on the way to being Baroness Neuberger (LD): My Lords, I support this well again. excellent amendment. This is the least that we can do. We have a tragic situation from Syria to Calais and As the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and my noble friend Dunkirk, but we need people who will not first go to a Lord Roberts said, there is a huge groundswell of committee, but say, “Something needs to be done. We support to bring some of these children—as many as have to act now”. I mentioned yesterday in Questions we can—into this country. It is enormously important our debt to the thousands of young people in particular to get those children out of there, particularly out of who are in the camps and on some of the Greek Calais and Dunkirk. islands and sacrificing so much to be there. We owe I have to declare a couple of interests. I am rabbi of them a tremendous debt. It is the Red Cross, Calais West London Synagogue, which runs a drop-in for Action, the Refugee Council and Save the Children—they asylum seekers and asylum-seeking families, and we are there. These are the people with their hands to the have a lot of volunteers who have been going to Calais wheel in those places. and Dunkirk. What they say about the situation of What are we going to do? If we say that the UK will those children and the degree of risk to them and the do no more, where will those children go? Possibly appalling circumstances in which they live is truly they are asking on the Turkish/Syrian border now, ghastly. “Where do we go?”. They get to Calais or Dunkirk I am also a trustee of the Walter and Liesel Schwab and they say, “Where do we go?”. Are we going to pull Charitable Trust, which was set up in memory of my up the drawbridge and say, “You can’t come here?”. parents. My mother came as a refugee. She was a GC 131 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 132

[BARONESS NEUBERGER] We have to face the fact that what confronts us now domestic servant when her younger brother was still at is only a small fraction of what is going to confront us school. His teacher rang her from Germany and said, in the future. With climate change and all the conflicts “You have to get your brother out of here”. So my that are arising, we are going to see the movement of uncle came as a semi-unaccompanied refugee and was people on a huge scale. That makes it abundantly clear looked after by the most wonderful foster parents, to me that we should establish a record of participation who responded to general appeals for foster parents. as leading members of international organisations They came forward, took him in and looked after him and arrangements, rather than being perceived as defensive for months until my mother could cope. and frightened all the time and making concessions. It is ironic that we have been holding these Committee That is not the intention. stage debates on the Immigration Bill around the time I am going to be personal—and this may be of Holocaust Memorial Day, when we have been embarrassing for the Minister concerned—but I am saying “never again” and have been remembering the absolutely convinced that we have a thoroughly decent Kindertransport and the refugees who came. When and very humanitarian Minister sitting with us this one looks back on those speeches, as the noble Lord, afternoon. I have no doubt about that at all. I am also Lord Dubs, did, on the whole you think a lot of the convinced that he doing his level best within government parliamentarians in 1938 and 1939 were truly wonderful to extend the Government’s response as much as he people. However, I want to mention Eleanor Rathbone can. I want the message to go from this Committee who is something of a heroine of mine. She also that he will have 200% support from us in doing that. I helped my grandparents, who also got out just before am sure that it will be a message from the House as a the beginning of the war. She said that our being so whole that he will have nothing but overwhelming slow in taking action—in a slightly different area—was support in doing everything possible. the equivalent of saying: We have to accept that the response of people in “’We are very sorry for all the people who are in danger of this country is not just emotional but practical. I was being drowned by this flood, and we will do our best to rescue very struck when all parties in the local authority them, but, mind, we must use nothing but teacups to bale out the adjacent to where I live in Cumbria said unanimously— flood’”.—[Official Report, Commons, 31/1/1939; col. 151.] and this very much provides tangible evidence of the The trouble is that we have been so slow and are case that my noble friend was making—“We must do taking such very small actions. Three thousand is the something. We want to do something. Will the very least we can do. We should go to Italy or to Government help us in pulling our weight as a local Greece and see the huge numbers who are there and authority?”. They were not bludgeoned or cajoled into then ask ourselves whether 3,000 unaccompanied children it. They did it spontaneously. I am sure that my noble on top of the 20,000 who the Government have already friend, who has a home up there too, knows what I am said they will take is really too many. I hope the taking about. It was very impressive and I thought it Government will accept this amendment. was good: in this community, these values are not just Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, I am very glad to something for individuals but something that the speak in support of my noble friend—and he really is community as a whole is determined to put on record, a friend. What he has said has been all the more and we must not let them down. powerful for us because of his personal story. He speaks with all the authority of having experienced 4pm exactly what we are talking about. Having had the My noble friend said that 3,000 is a small figure, benefits of the response and care that he received, he is and of course it is when we are confronted with the determined to see that shared with the children of size of the challenge. But the great point about my today. That is a very powerful position. noble friend’s approach in his amendment is that he is I believe we should do what is proposed in the putting down a tangible, achievable target. I hope that amendment because it is right. I do not see how he would be second to none—I am sure he would—in anybody could argue that it is not. These children— saying that, if we make a success of this, we should see bewildered and bereft—are totally innocent. The noble what else we can do. Lord, Lord Roberts, said that they are asking themselves, Given my experience as a former director of Oxfam, “Where shall we go?”, but some of them are so bewildered I could speak at some considerable length about situations and lost that they are not even asking that. The thought of this kind, but my concluding point is that what we in their minds is, “How are we going to survive?”. have to get straight in our politics is that we will be They are terrified, frightened and bewildered. judged as a generation of politicians—Governments If we have any values in this country, surely we and Oppositions will be judged—by the priority we should say that it is imperative to respond. I listened to give to recognising that we are a totally interdependent the noble Baroness’s powerful point about how we are global community. What is relevant and important is slow to respond, but I am afraid that we are not just to be seen in the strength of our commitment and slow; inadvertently or not, we seem to be generating a drive in the contribution we make to the whole cause certain message. We have to face the fact that that of effective international governance and action. I am message is interpreted by many as our seeing something afraid that, in too many spheres, our record has been unfortunate or threatening about this situation. one of dragging our feet, being at the end of the queue The message is that we have to somehow defend and always talking about the problems. Of course ourselves and make concessions where that becomes there are problems, and practical problems at that, not unavoidable —or clear that it would be impossible not least pressure on the domestic community. But, for to do so. goodness’ sake, the message should be: in the name of GC 133 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 134 humanity, of all the values we proclaim and of Christian the refugees— civilisation, which we talk about a lot, we have to do “to the danger of being handed over to their deadly enemies something. Yes, we will have to face the problems, but rather than risk a few thousand pounds in bringing them over. I the message should be: what are we doing and how know that the Under-Secretary has sympathy in this matter, and much can we do? How much, by our own example, can I appeal to him to do something to speed up the mechanism and to relax these regulations … Cannot we risk a few thousand we generate a greater response on behalf of humanity pounds rather than abandon these people to the terrible fate that as a whole? It will be by our example of positive may possibly await them? I feel that in this small matter we may attitudes and a determination to do most, not just appeal with some hope of success for the Government to adopt a what is possible to manage, that we will have influence more farsighted and generous policy than heretofore”.—[Official on policy across the world. Report, Commons, 31/1/1939; col. 151.] The leader of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron, has been very clear about our party’s stance on this Baroness Hamwee (LD): My Lords, much has been and has been a part of the call for the Government to said about the part played by modern communications enable this number of children to be brought here. He in the current conflict. Part of that is that we cannot has done so because, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, claim ignorance of what is happening. The media, said, it is right. However, this is not a party-political NGOs, colleagues and friends—I, too, have friends issue. What is most important is that this has caught who have undertaken voluntary work in northern the public mood of the moment and we should go France—make so abundantly clear what is happening with it. that we cannot escape that information. I want to pick up on a couple of points that are Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab): My Lords, I am used as arguments in this debate. One is the idea that pleased to support my noble friend. The Government children should be kept in their own region and culture, are to be applauded for the aid they are giving directly among people from similar backgrounds. Leave aside to the region and their recent statement regarding the variety of people who are volunteering to help resettling some unaccompanied children, mainly from children, is it better for children to stay in the region or the region. However, as Heidi Allen MP said on the to be alive, with shelter, not being abused or trafficked, “Week in Westminster”on Sunday, no amount of such and with access to food, education, health services and aid can help those in Europe now. In a recent Commons so on? Do we keep children in the region so they can debate on child refugees in Europe, Sir Eric Pickles—not be reunited with their families? someone I normally quote in support of an argument— I am not persuaded that the administration and said that while the Government are quite right to keep the records that will be available if they stay in the children in the region, region will be better than they would be if the children “we are where we are. There are children at risk, and I urge the were brought to this country through a government Government to look carefully at that”.—[Official Report, Commons, scheme. I am sure the records will be kept very carefully. 25/1/16; col. 41.] I have seen somewhere that the UNHCR regards the Perhaps, more accurately, we should say these children chances of relocation if children are brought to this are where they are. Refusing to help them is not country as still being high. On the question of family going to result in them returning to their homelands. reunion—children who are refugees in their own right Instead, they are stuck in appalling conditions. The have rights—it is said that this is, in fact, an underhand International Development Committee took up Save way of getting the rest of the family into the UK by the Children’s recommendation that we should take sending the children on ahead. I simply do not believe 3,000 unaccompanied children. It made a very strong that that is likely except, perhaps, in a very small recommendation in support of that and called for handful of cases. In any event, the children have rights. urgent action from the Government on it. The committee In previous debates I have acknowledged the difficulties warned that children are prey to exploitation by people in finding foster parents. I know what is said about all traffickers—the very thing that the Government say the volunteers: there is a general shortage of foster they want to avoid by supposedly not encouraging parents for British children. Maybe this will break children to make the perilous journey to Europe. some sort of logjam. I acknowledge the support that Ministers rightly say that any action to assist will be needed for foster parents and for local authorities. unaccompanied minors must be in the best interests of It is very important to recognise all that because the children and that this is their primary concern. But people who are dealing with these children will be how can it be in the best interests of unaccompanied dealing with very sensitive, difficult, delicate situations children to be left to fend for themselves in the camps and children who, almost inevitably, will have been of Calais and Dunkirk without hope and, as we have damaged. We hope that this is an exercise in not already heard, at the mercy of hunger, cold, exploitation damaging them further. and people traffickers? Like my noble friend Lord Like other noble Lords, I have been fascinated by Dubs, I am not totally clear what the Statement of the extracts from Hansard from 1938 and 1939. Not 28 January promised. In particular, can the Minister only are the arguments those that are being used today confirm that, as Save the Children says, it is intended but the ancestors of a number of current Members to try to reunite lone child refugees who are already in appear in them. The then Earl of Listowel pointed to a Europe with families in the UK? If so, that is welcome, precedent on which Her Majesty’s Government had but can he say exactly what is intended and how many acted before: the work of the International Red Cross children he expects will be helped in this way? in the south of France. Our shared heroine, Eleanor Finally, I take this opportunity to ask the Minister Rathbone, said: about a report in the Independent on Sunday that the “We are apparently willing to abandon them”— Council of the EU is discussing measures that could GC 135 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 136

[BARONESS LISTER OF BURTERSETT] Although the Government had argued until then have the effect of criminalising individuals and charities that, under Dublin III, applications for asylum must that help Syrian refugees, including children, when be made and processed in France, the court accepted they arrive on the European mainland—in particular, that the reality is very different and that the French on Greek islands. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, system is, indeed, broken. Applications from asylum talked about what we owe those people, who are doing seekers with family already resident in the UK are not amazing humanitarian work. Can the Minister give being processed and passed on to the UK. In effect, an assurance that the Home Secretary will oppose the safe and legal route has been denied to asylum any such measures? The very suggestion that such seekers who have done all that has been asked of them. humanitarian action could be equated with people In this ground-breaking ruling, the court accepted smuggling is, frankly, quite abhorrent. I hope that the that evidence of a written claim to asylum in France Minister can assure us that the report is unfounded—I was sufficient to prove that the children had initially do not necessarily believe everything that I read in the sought safety there. Therefore, the court subsequently newspapers but this is an opportunity to check it ruled that, instead of waiting for the French Government out—and, if it is not unfounded, that the Home to ask, the British Government must act. It will now Secretary will vigorously oppose any such move. be up to Britain to examine the claims of these specific In the mean time, I hope that the Minister—I agree cases under the Dublin regulations. This changes the with what has been said; I know that he is a Minister nature of the debate: the Government can no longer who listens and cares—will be able to give hope to hide behind what can be described only as a broken children who need it. I hope, too, that, even if it is not system. Or can they? Will the Minister confirm whether a final response to my noble friend, he will be able to the Government are planning to, or have already, give a response that at least leaves the door ajar. appealed this decision? If so, why? With the release of the dreadful figures from Europol Lord Hylton (CB): My Lords, I support the amendment citing 10,000 unaccompanied asylum-seeking children and I have just one question for the Minister. I wonder having gone missing, probably into the hands of human whether he has noticed a statement by a small and traffickers, surely the Government should now capitulate rather obscure English NGO that has a database with and accept the moral and legal case for accepting the the names of 10,000 would-be English foster carers. I relatively small number of the 3,000 unaccompanied apologise for not having the name of the organisation asylum-seeking children into Britain that we, the Liberal with me but, even if that figure has become inflated or Democrats, other politicians of a variety of different if, when those volunteers are vetted, not all of them parties and numerous NGOs have been asking for. are suitable, surely there must be enough to cope with Citizens UK has identified several hundred children in the 3,000 children mentioned in the amendment. Taking Calais and Dunkirk alone who have a bone fide case up those offers would greatly ease the burden that for being brought to Britain. I saw some of them when presently falls on the local authorities in, for example, I was in Dunkirk this Sunday, just as Storm Imogen Kent and Sussex, and it would spread the load much was gathering pace. There is little justification for more evenly around the country. leaving anyone to suffer those conditions, let alone the young people who have every legal right to come to Finally, I urge the Government not to insist on Britain. Surely the time has come to get on with it. The deporting children who reach the age of 18. They may unaccompanied children we are talking about have once have entered this country illegally but they have relatives already resident in Britain, so there would be been here for a considerable number of years. They no burden on any of the local authorities. have been to school in England and have made friends in England, and they should not be deported. Lord Green of Deddington (CB): My Lords, I would 4.15 pm like to inject a note of caution into the debate, which has been a little one-sided. I am sure the noble Lord, Baroness Sheehan (LD): My Lords, I support the Lord Dubs, is right in suggesting that there is widespread amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, support for refugees, and especially children. Nobody and put on record how impressed I have been with all is more qualified to say that than he is. The question is the other speeches so far in support of the amendment. how to do it, and that needs a little bit of thought. The I will focus my remarks on looking in a little more proposal is to relocate 3,000 unaccompanied children detail at the court case that the noble Lord briefly from Europe, and that is entirely understandable. It is mentioned. entirely right to offer refuge where that is in the best On 18 January, the Upper Tribunal ruled that three interests of the children. However, I think I have a unaccompanied minors and a vulnerable young man slight difficulty over the suggestion that these children with mental health problems from the camp in Calais should be selected from those already in Europe. The had a bona fide case to be allowed to join relatives reason for that is this: there is some risk that it would already resident in the UK. This case is important encourage families to send their children in advance in because it follows a legal challenge co-ordinated by the hope that that would later open the door, as it Citizens UK, which cited a little-known provision in were, for the rest of the family to claim asylum. the Dublin III regulations that allows an asylum seeker The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, did not seem to join their relative in Britain if they have already to think that there was very much in that, but there is applied for asylum in France. The Upper Tribunal some evidence from Sweden that that has been the ruled that the Home Office should immediately allow case, and we have had some experience with Albania, the three children and one adult to join their families. when a very large number of families got the idea that, GC 137 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 138 if the children went first, they could follow. We need to Lord Green of Deddington: My Lords, eventually I be careful of that, and conscious that this could become will be allowed to sit down. There are some very a selling point for people smugglers in the camps serious points here. There is a large number of destitute around Syria itself. children in Europe. The issue is how we suggest our Let us take orphan children, by all means, but I Government respond to that. Suppose we take 3,000 rather think it might be better to take them from the children in the UK as part as what I think has been camps around Syria and to do so on UNHCR advice. described as our share. So 30,000 or 40,000 children We are doing that already with families, and I do not are taken into care in Europe. Do we seriously think see why we should not extend that—indeed, I believe that none of the families who are refugees from Syria, we should extend it—to orphan children in those Iraq or Afghanistan will deduce from that that the camps. The UNHCR could provide an objective account best way forward, particularly as the borders close and of those children’s circumstances and take a view as to the Turks get more difficult and so on, is to send a whether there was perhaps a better solution involving child ahead? I think that they might well. I cannot be the child’s extended family. Remember, extended families definitive about this—we need the evidence and we in Syria are very close, very strong and very important. need to think about it very carefully. But there has to I suggest that we would do better to reinforce our be a risk that if you say, “Right, we’ll have the kids”, work with the UNHCR. By all means increase the other family members will follow and we simply make numbers, but let us be quite sure that we do it in a way the situation continue and possibly even get worse. that does not have a downside attached to it. Whatever we do, there is a dreadful situation. Let us be really careful that we do not make it any worse. Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, am I to understand from what the Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con): My Lords, we could noble Lord said that his concern is about where the probably spend four hours going backwards and forwards children may be coming from rather than the numbers? on this obviously important subject, but it might be It would be encouraging to hear him say that he thinks useful, given that we have a number of things to get that 3,000 is not wrong. through, to hear the views of the Front Benches. Lord Green of Deddington: My concern is that, if we are not careful about this, we might encourage Lord Rosser (Lab): I do not intend to speak at any families to send children on ahead. We need to look at great length. We support the amendment moved by that very carefully because those children would be at my noble friend Lord Dubs. Indeed, it is quite clear exactly the same risk as those already in Europe now. that not all Government MPs are opposed to taking It is a very difficult and sensitive area. There are unaccompanied children already in Europe, not least almost instant communications between child refugees some of those who have been to the entry points in and the adults in their families. If you open a door and Greece and other parts of Europe and seen the situation give the impression that, “Get your kids as far as for themselves. We also welcome the financial support Rome and the Brits will have them”, then the risk is the Government are providing to those in camps in that we will make a bad situation worse, if that were Syria and neighbouring countries. possible. I think we are all agreed—everyone who has spoken is—that we should be taking some unaccompanied Lord Judd: Before the noble Lord sits down, I children; there might be an issue as to where we take thought the noble Lord put his view very morally and them from. It is not clear, as has already been said, I do not believe that it can be dismissed out of hand. what the Government’s intentions are in this respect, However, the question I want to put to him is what certainly in relation to numbers. The Government, would he do about the children who are already in obviously, up to now are sticking to their line that they Europe? That is the point: they are already there. As would be from within Syria and neighbouring countries, my noble friend said, we are where we are. Although but I think I am right in saying that we have not been there may be intellectual logic and force in his argument, told how many. I suppose one answer to the question we have a real situation. posed by the noble Lord, Lord Green, about the extent to which our taking 3,000 unaccompanied children Baroness Neuberger: Could I add to that? The noble who are already in Europe might act as an incentive Lord, Lord Dubs, has put the specific number of for parents to send their children that way might be 3,000 children in his amendment, and we know that that it rather depends how many children the Government these are very troubled children. The situation is intend to take from Syria and neighbouring countries. particularly ghastly right now and we know that some Clearly if they intend to take quite considerable numbers, of those children are disappearing. That sounds alarm that might still be seen as the most favourable way of bells for all of us. seeking admission, provided the criteria were met, into the United Kingdom. That, no doubt, is something Baroness Lister of Burtersett: That 3,000 figure is that the Minister will comment on when he replies, the figure that Save the Children calculated specifically perhaps giving an indication of how many unaccompanied in relation to children who are already in Europe. That children the Government expect to take from Syria does not, of course, make it inviolable, but I am sure it and neighbouring countries. I ask again how the considered the arguments because, clearly, it will know Government actually reached their initial figure of that those are the arguments that the Government taking 20,000 people over five years. I am still not have used. The Save the Children number was accepted clear how they reached that. It would be interesting if by the all-party International Development Committee. the Minister could comment on that as well as on the GC 139 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 140

[LORD ROSSER] in Syria. It is almost unimaginable to do that, but the number of unaccompanied children the Government question is whether there is a serious risk that it could expect to be taking under the arrangements they have happen. There is some evidence that that is exactly announced. what has happened in relation to Sweden and Albania— The reality is, as has already been said, that we have Albania is different because that is a peaceful country. apparently considerable numbers of unaccompanied I raise the question. We need to be careful. If it was children already in Europe. I am certainly not confining done through the UNHCR, we would be saving the my comments to Calais and Dunkirk. Indeed, the same number of children, but we would not run the amendment refers to children, risk of encouraging further children to get into serious “who are in European countries”. difficulty. It is not related simply to what may be happening in Calais and Dunkirk. My understanding, unless I have The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) got the figure wrong, is that Europol recently said that (Con): Before I address the remarks relating to this more than 10,000 unaccompanied children registered amendment, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, after arriving in Europe over the past 18 months to to the chair. I understand it is her first Committee two years have disappeared. It said that youngsters outing as a Deputy Chairman. As an alumnus of that arriving in Europe alone are particularly vulnerable to role, I know the fear and intimidation of being faced exploitation and abuse. That, no doubt, is something with the Marshalled List in a very difficult Committee. on which the Minister will comment. Why are the I am sure all members of the Committee will be very Government refusing to take some unaccompanied sympathetic to her on her first day. children from within Europe—a specific figure is No one can be unmoved by the quality of the mentioned in the amendment? Where children have contributions to this debate—I declare myself a father been identified as being unaccompanied, on their own and a grandfather. We identify absolutely with the and having come from a country ravaged by civil war, pain and suffering which people are feeling at this where hundreds of thousands have died and many time. I agree with the UN Secretary-General that this have been brutally murdered, is it really still the particular migration crisis is one of the greatest since Government’s policy to wash our hands of them as far the formation of the United Nations. He was right in as relocation to the United Kingdom is concerned talking about the scale of the problem. because they landed cold, wet, scared and on their own on, for example, a Greek island rather than being It might help the Committee if I set out the rationale in or near Syria? Up to now, that appears basically to behind the Government’s current approach and set be the Government’s stance. that in context of the fact that we are dealing with a very fast-moving situation. There is quite a lot of 4.30 pm pressure which, rightly, comes from people who are If we are not prepared to contribute, what is the trying to nail the Government down and ask, “Where position of genuinely unaccompanied children already are you with this particular Statement?” It is very fast in Europe? Who is responsible for them? Should we, as moving. A significant number of discussions took a European nation, not accept responsibility for some place on the margins of the Supporting Syria conference unaccompanied children entering Europe? I, too, hope a week last Thursday. Some 35 countries were there that the Government will reflect on the situation. I do discussing these issues. On Thursday, James Brokenshire not think this is in any way an unreasonable amendment. will be hosting a round table with Save the Children, It is not asking for large numbers, when you consider UNHCR and UNICEF to discuss the specific statements the totality of unaccompanied children across Europe. on unaccompanied asylum-seeking children made by It is solidly based, in the sense that the figure of 3,000 the Government on 28 January. This issue was raised is related to what I understood was the estimated by Save the Children and underscored by the DfID 26,000 unaccompanied children in Europe today. I Select Committee. There is also the ongoing International hope, as I am sure does everybody who has spoken, Syria Support Group meeting in Munich on Thursday that we will hear that the Government may be giving which will be attended by the Foreign Secretary and further reflection to this issue, if they will not agree to Defence Secretary. I am trying to set this in context: it change what appears to be their current stance. is very fast moving. If I was standing here in this capacity last year, I Lord Roberts of Llandudno: The noble Lord, Lord would have been facing questions—I was standing Green, spoke earlier. Is he a grandfather or a father? here last year and I did face questions—from noble Has he children? Would he trust his children to leave Lords who asked me repeatedly to tell them how many Syria to walk across Europe to reach the temptations people had currently arrived. Officials would tell me of Italy and Greece and to meet the deprivations on to avoid putting a number on it, because it was not the way? Would he really think that his child could very impressive. It was fewer than 100, then 120 and manage unaccompanied? Is it not really a fantasy to 130: complaints came that it was derisory. Then came think that these kids are not going to suffer in this the Prime Minister’s announcement in September that way? I would not have thought of putting my children it would be 20,000 over the period of this Parliament. or grandchildren on that trek, and I am sure that the So far, 50% of those have now arrived. He said it noble Lord, Lord Green, would not either. would be 1,000 before Christmas and I then got repeated questions asking whether they would all be here by Lord Green of Deddington: I am a father and a Christmas. More than 1,000 arrived by Christmas. grandfather and of course I would do nothing of the That process is continuing. Last year we might have kind, but then I am not in the situation of families talked about £500 million of aid committed to the GC 141 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 142 region, particularly to help Syrian refugees. That figure we have been following that approach. Of course, went up to £1.1 billion and last week it was doubled to there are many more things that need to be done. In £2.3 billion. terms of how the amendment is worded, to come to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, it talks It is right that we are moved by the terrible situation about unaccompanied asylum-seeking children without which people are facing but, outside this Committee, it designating a specific country. That is one of the would be unfair to present a picture to the many things that we have discovered is a real issue. Under organisations who are doing incredible work in this humanitarian law, to designate the specific country is area that the Government, and particularly the Prime very difficult, because you are then differentiating Minister, are unmoved by this. He is deeply moved by between people on the basis of geography rather than it and the Government are trying to work their way need. So the wording of the amendment is correct. through. In the year to September 2015, 1,570 unaccompanied As to the approach we are taking, the crisis we asylum-seeking children arrived in the UK, and 61% identified was that people were undertaking a perilous of those children were 16 or over. Only 7% were journey. I understand the arguments made about “we 14 and under. I have to say that those figures surprised are where we are” or “they are where they are”, but me when I read them, because when I thought of that was the context in which we began this policy. The unaccompanied asylum-seeking children I thought of European Union’s policy at that point was relocation: my grandson, who is five or six. As we have discussed in other words, people arrive and then you simply in Questions before, a large number of that particular move them around different countries. We felt that group come from certain areas such as Eritrea, which simply having the same policy was not the right approach. is not to say that Eritrea is not a country that people The total number it aspired to move around was would want to leave because of their conscription and 160,000; currently some 340 have actually been moved. national service in an open-ended way. They also I do not want to start from the premise that we have come from Albania and other countries. At the moment, somehow just plucked this approach from the air and Albania forms 632 while Eritrea forms 460 of the that it has been proved to be fundamentally wrong. total unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, while We said that we needed to stop them undertaking Afghanistan forms 179 and Syria 118. I present that as that journey, because we knew that they would then simply an expansion on the designation and the general immediately fall prey to the criminal gangs—we know term of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children. In the figure of 90%. These gangs are making vast fortunes other words, are we actually helping those whom we from trafficking individuals. In fact there was one want to help the most? particular gang which was broken up by the National Crime Agency, working with Europol on 2 December, Lord Green of Deddington: On that very point, is when 23 people were arrested. This one gang was the Minister aware that something like 40% of these responsible for 100 Syrian migrants a day coming into unaccompanied asylum-seeking children are involved Greece and was making estimated earnings of ¤10 million in an age dispute? Quite often, those who claim to be in the process. This is a very lucrative business. Our 16 are found to be 18. The point is that many of them first principle is to say that everything we need to do is are older than one might think. to stop people making that journey. You then say, “How do you stop them making that journey if you 4.45 pm are just giving them humanitarian aid?” They need Lord Bates: That is possibly the case. The Prime some hope that they can potentially get out of that Minister announced on 28 January that we are going area through a safe route—and therefore the Syria to continue the discussions. He also said that it is Vulnerable Persons Relocation Scheme was expanded. absolutely critical for people’s safety that, when a child We worked with the International Organization for or anyone sets foot on a Greek island, in Italy or in Migration and the UNHCR to identify the most any of the reception areas, they are properly recorded deserving people, based on established international via biometrics at that point. That is supposed to UNHCR criteria—namely, those who had been victims happen under the Dublin regulations. However, it was of torture or persecution; women and girls at risk of not happening and Europol was deeply concerned violence; and those in acute medical need. Those were about the risk of a lot of people going missing and not the priorities. When they were identified, they could being able to be tracked. We have given the European be brought out not as unaccompanied asylum-seeking Asylum Support Office additional support, which is children but in family units. They are put on a plane then directed to—it is an awful name—hotspot centres, with papers; they come to Glasgow, London or wherever which are reception centres. We have established a it is, and they have a house. They have social workers £10 million fund to help, particularly with unaccompanied around them; the children have a place in a school asylum-seeking children. The Home Secretary has prepared for them when they arrive, they are able to asked the Independent Anti-slavery Commissioner, work immediately when they arrive, and they get Kevin Hyland, to go to each of those centres and, as a language support. former police officer and someone who is leading the So while noble Lords say that we are not doing modern-day slavery initiative and the implementation enough, it is perhaps wrong to say that there is no of the legislation, to evaluate the situation and see logic underpinning our approach. In fact, all the way what more can be done in that area, and then to report through this process, we have worked very closely with back to Ministers. We have established similar funding the UNHCR, which believes that it is best to keep for people to search out the most vulnerable in the families together, particularly for children. That is why camps at Calais and Dunkirk. GC 143 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 144

[LORD BATES] Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, the Minister talked A number of noble Lords mentioned the situation about the situation within Syria and potential relocation of unaccompanied asylum-seeking children, particularly within Syria. Is he able to say a word about what seems in Kent. I totally accept that many people are willing to be quite a fast-changing situation, where the places to foster children. The generosity of the British people to which the Syrian population might go are being is as alive and well now as it ever was in 1938, but often bombed, starved or both almost out of existence? The they are not sure how to help. Following the exchanges situation changes fast. It would be useful to have on that we had yesterday, I was inspired this morning to record whether the Government’s thinking is moving get a letter from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop equally fast. of Rochester. I have not asked his permission to mention this but I shall take the risk and ask his Lord Bates: It is a fast-changing situation and needs forgiveness if I have it wrong. I had mentioned that, to be balanced with what we are talking about, which sadly, despite widespread support among people who is wanting to ensure that we do the greatest good for are saying, “We are prepared to help and to be foster the greatest number of people in need. We should also parents”, only a very small number of local authorities— bear in mind when we talk about 3,000 children that about six or seven—had come forward to offer support. there are currently 2.1 million children who are refugees The right reverend Prelate said that he would be from Syria, so 3,000 in addition is a relatively small prepared to write to diocesan bishops across the country number. You can help more in the region. I do not saying that this might be something that they could want to sound heartless: we talk about 3,000 people in raise with their local authorities to see whether they this amendment, but our aid is providing 15 million could do a little more to help during this acute crisis. food rations already, supporting 600,000 families, There is much more that can be done, but I wanted to educating or supporting in education 227,000 children take the opportunity to set out the Government’s and providing 2 million medical interventions. I am approach for noble Lords. not expecting people to say, “That’s fine, then”. The Perhaps I may answer a couple of specific questions pressure needs to be maintained. It is a great humanitarian that were asked of me. In terms of the Dublin regulations crisis and this place should be putting pressure on the and reuniting families, there is no limit on the number. Executive to take further action. I hope from what I If someone qualifies under the Dublin regulations and have set out that I can go as far as to say that the claims asylum, they will be admitted to the UK. Of Government are taking this seriously. We are not course, the point of difference between us that the unmoved by it and Britain is doing a substantial noble Baroness, Lady Lister, mentioned is that the amount of which we can be proud. Dublin regulations are—again, this is an awful word— triggered at the point that a person claims asylum. If people in camps in Calais and Dunkirk do not claim Baroness Sheehan: Can the Minister say a few words asylum there—of course, they do not want to claim on his statement about most asylum seekers being asylum there, because they want to get to the UK and 16 year-olds, at the upper age of the limit? Surely that claim asylum here—they do not get the protections is not surprising, because a five or a six year-old, afforded by the Dublin regulations. That is a problem unless he had an older sibling to help him, could not and we need to work through it, but that is how it make that perilous journey. Also, NGOs on the ground arises. have told me that 17 and 18 year-olds tend to claim to The French have set up 96 welcome centres across be younger than they are because they do not wish to France and 2,500 individuals have chosen to go to one get caught up in the dysfunctional immigration asylum of them since October. Some 80% of them then decided system in France. I think that that argument works to claim asylum or take voluntary return. both ways. I say to the noble Lord and to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate that I totally get where they Lord Bates: I hear what the noble Baroness says. are coming from and I empathise very much with the The age verification of children is a key challenge position. There is a huge amount going on, perhaps facing all the agencies. That is why trying to establish not seen, and I have tried to lift the veil on a little bit of documentation is so important. One can understand what is going on at present. Suffice it to say, I have no why, when someone is received into the country, they doubt that we will come back with further announcements self-declare as being a child, because they may then get on progress, particularly on the issue of unaccompanied a different level of treatment and protection. That may asylum-seeking children, over the next weeks and months, be one reason why the age profile is what it is. It is as we should and as the Prime Minister has stated. I difficult to know how to get around that, other than to hope that, in that spirit, the noble Lord may feel able work with the individual to identify their documents to withdraw his amendment. and age and to make sure that they are in the system and can get age-appropriate support. Baroness Lister of Burtersett: I asked the Minister a very specific question about the Independent on Sunday Lord Dubs: I am enormously grateful to all Members report. If he cannot reply now, will he undertake to of the Committee who have spoken. With two exceptions, write to me? He has been very good at following up the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Green, they our sessions with full letters. have all been in support of the amendment, and I am grateful for that. Even the noble Lord, Lord Green, Lord Bates: Yes, I will write to make sure that I get and the Minister qualified their opposition by making it absolutely right. sympathetic and reasonably supportive comments. GC 145 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 146

Briefly, I will say one or two things in reply to the can do and that we have a moral responsibility to do debate. First of all, of course we all welcome the it. We have had a good debate. I beg leave to withdraw government money that is going into the refugee camps the amendment, but I say with some confidence that in the region and of course we welcome the vulnerable Report beckons. persons relocation scheme—it has a lot of merit. I think some of us think that the numbers are very small Amendment 239 withdrawn. in relation to the number of people in the camps in the region, but we all think that it is a good scheme. We Amendments 239A and 239B not moved. also think that the principle of keeping families together is desirable. The difficulty is that, if there were only 5pm people in the camps, and not a million or so more in various European countries, the principle would be Clause 44: Penalties relating to airport control areas easier to apply and we could persuade other EU countries to do the same as we are and take in the vulnerable families. The trouble is that that is not the Amendment 239BA situation as it is. Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire We are dealing with a very large number of people who have fled the region—and victims of people trafficking 239BA: Clause 44, page 44, line 10, at end insert— certainly—and are now scattered across many EU “( ) The Secretary of State must by regulations made by statutory instrument provide for the application of the provisions countries. It is from among those people that we have and penalties under this section to those responsible for assuring identified that there are 24,000 or so unaccompanied that border controls are enforced on arrivals and departures at children, who are in a particularly desperate situation. general aviation sites, private landing strips and helipads.” In the camps, at least there is support from the various agencies and the United Nations to enable them to live Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, we are in not wonderful conditions but at least to get food, now on to Part 6 of the Bill on border security. This is water and some shelter. But for some of those in the first of a number of amendments on that. I welcome Europe, heaven knows whether they have any safety at government Amendment 239C, which recognises that all. That is the point of the amendment. border security is not only about maritime security; we Three thousand is a very small number. The Minister have a land border in Northern Ireland. Many years talked about the Dublin convention and I wonder ago when I was at Chatham House and dealing with whether he is seeking refuge behind that when other the beginnings of European co-operation in police, I EU countries are not necessarily adhering to it either. kept coming across policemen, as well as Conservatives, That may be for another day. who said, “But we’re different. We only have a maritime We have an urgent problem. I understand that there border”. They should go to Dublin and try to explain is a concern that some of this might provide pull that. The delicacy of the border between Northern factors for the families. However, as far as we know, Ireland and southern Ireland is very considerable and these children are, at the moment, on their own. would be very sharply affected if we were to leave the Honestly, if a handful of them had been pushed out of European Union. It is very good to see the government the region in order to attract family members, it would amendment. not be a large number and I am pretty convinced that My initial interest in this area came from looking the majority of these unaccompanied children have at the Channel Islands as a very odd, semi-British not been pushed out as a way of enabling their families dependency. I noted that the owners of the Daily to follow them. These are children who are vulnerable Telegraph—a newspaper that bangs on about border in their own right. security and the defence of British sovereignty—have a company that owns at least one helicopter, which Lord Green of Deddington: I am not suggesting that advertises that it flies between Brecqhou and Monaco. any significant proportion of those now in Europe Since the Channel Islands’ authorities rarely, if ever, have been sent ahead. It is the future that I am send a policeman to Brecqhou, let alone a border concerned about: that taking 20,000 or 30,000 might security officer, I assume that this is a means of in future lead to children being sent ahead. entirely avoiding border security. I mark that as one of the many oddities of the way the debate on sovereignty Lord Dubs: That is a situation that we would have and border security in this country takes place. to consider if and when it happened. At the moment, Thinking more widely on this, we can see that it is we are talking about a group of very vulnerable children. clearly a serious loophole. I am one of those people For all the caveats that have been expressed, I think it who occasionally looks at the Financial Times weekend right that the Government should do something clear supplement, How to Spend It, just to see how people and positive by supporting this amendment. who earn £3 million a year or more get through it. The I think that we have covered all the arguments. editor of the Daily Mail, another newspaper that There was one quote—I forget which Member of the bangs on about sovereignty and border security, is Committee said it—that I wrote down: “The least we supposed to earn £3 million a year, so now doubt he can do”. Whoever said it, I welcome the phrase. It thinks about spending his money on things such as summarises the feeling of the Committee. Yes, there that. There are advertisements in How to Spend It for may be other children in the future, but let us for the yachts with their own helicopters, so you can fly moment deal with the problem as we see it in various directly from your yacht in the Mediterranean to your European countries. Let us say that this is the least we helipad on your estate in Surrey—or, for that matter, GC 147 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 148

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] about how I approached this subject. Illegal migrants the helipad close to us in Yorkshire, where you can get in the country are clearly a problem: no one denies straight on to the grass moors, if you like, again that. If they are here illegally they should not be here, without passing through border controls. and we should be able to take action. I have a list of As the super-rich extend their ability to fly in light eight or 10 things that I would want to see. I will be aircraft and helicopters across national boundaries, interested in the Minister’s response in terms of actually there is a growing problem that needs attention. When finding those things out. Are they, indeed, the sort of I first came into government I was briefly spokesman things they should know? for that aspect of the Home Office that dealt with The second question is: is it possible to know about counterterrorism and border control. I spent a very and explore something that is an illegal activity? There interesting day with the West Yorkshire Police and the have been studies of the number of illegal migrants in combined Yorkshire serious crime squad, learning about the UK but I understand that the last major one—maybe how they work. One of the things I remember most by the LSE—was in 2009. It estimated that there were strongly from that was that there is no domestic serious somewhere between 400,000 and 800,000 in the UK. crime. All serious crime involves criminal networks; all There is quite a large margin of error between the important criminal networks are cross-border. minimum and maximum numbers in that estimate. Is The idea that we do not need to be too careful it possible to measure illegal activities? I expect that about helipads at luxury hotels, golf courses or estates noble Lords are aware that in May 2014 the Office for in Surrey because the people who go there are rich and National Statistics started to include in GDP figures therefore law-abiding is not necessarily accurate. Some the amount of GDP generated by illegal drugs and of them may be rich and not entirely law abiding. prostitution. Prostitution is not strictly illegal, but in Some of the richest people in this country are Russian terms of how it is carried out it is broadly seen as an oligarchs. They may, or may not, be law abiding in this illegal activity and therefore had not been brought country, but the origins of their wealth may not have into GDP before. The total GDP for those two activities been entirely according to British legal standards. was about £12 billion; more or less 50%, or £6 billion, Others are from Gulf royal families. Most of them are related to illegal drugs, and approximately the same entirely honourable people, but occasional ones claim figure related to prostitution. It is therefore possible to diplomatic immunity because they represent St Lucia estimate those types of figures with a reasonable standard on the International Maritime Organisation or whatever. error, if not with certainty. There are, therefore, occasions when they may not be The techniques that have been used to measure entirely in accordance with British law. We have no illegal migration are the Delphi method, the capture- idea who they may bring in and out of Britain in their recapture method and the residual method, which has private aircraft or helicopters. They may even be bringing been used to make these estimates in the United States. domestic workers without visas to work for them here I am not for a minute saying that this is an easy or under conditions which we regard as illegal and against totally accurate exercise, but for decisions around such the Modern Slavery Act. important areas as this, which we all want to solve, we I raise this question as there is a major loophole in should spend a little more resource and time moving border security and incursion into British sovereignty. away from rhetoric and into understanding what is I hope the Government will provide a sign that they going on. By doing so, we might have a lot better are aware of the seriousness of this loophole, which is decisions about migration management, and there might growing as air traffic from private aircraft and helicopters be legislation that we can all agree on, rather than grows, that they are doing something about it and that taking rather normative views. they will close the loophole. I beg to move. Lord Marlesford (Con): My Lords, I strongly support Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, I shall speak to the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace Amendment 241A in my name. At the end of the of Saltaire. In fact, I am amazed to hear that this debate at Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Bates, loophole exists. We are now under considerable threat responded extensively to a wide range of questions from terrorism. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord and comments. One of them, brought up by me and a Wallace of Saltaire, that people of wealth are not number of other noble Lords, was about the fact that necessarily any less likely to be objects of suspicion we have so little information in this area. In his response, than others, but he rather implied that only people of the Minister read off a whole lot of evidence and wealth would have access to these means of arriving in research that the Government had possession of. I was Britain. That is simply not true. Let us get away from unsatisfied by that, because most of the information the idea that terrorism needs a lot of money. Noble did not help to determine an evidence-based policy Lords will remember that the post mortem on 9/11 towards migration, particularly the illegal migrants worked out that the total cost of doing the whole of who are in the country. I therefore set myself a challenge: 9/11 was lightly less than $250,000. The idea that if I was making a decision, as a Minister, on the basis money is any constraint on people who wish to get of evidence, what would I want to know? If, in my into this country by a means that does not involve a business life, I was looking at market research, what check is not valid. I have been arguing for years in would I try to determine? I then asked myself if it was your Lordships’ House that there should be proper possible to determine them, because that is clearly the entry and exit checks. We have been immensely dilatory second stage of this. I have put in the amendment the about them. It is very late in the day because now we sort of information that I would want to know if I was are under real threat and it is essential that the Government a Minister or Secretary of State making decisions give a positive answer to this. GC 149 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 150

The details are very easy to work out. The law states Lord Rosser, that we need to get a grip, and part of that anybody landing has to land somewhere where that is a matter of reorganisation, which I think is at there is a place to check them and, if that adds to the hand. Another part is to have a legal framework, and cost, so be it. If it is an emergency landing of some we are doing that today. But none of that is any use at sort, they have to signal it, which they would have to all unless it is enforced. I am increasingly of the view do anyway—and all aircraft have radios—and would that the lack of resources is becoming a serious constraint; be required to remain there until the police were it really does need to be looked at, and the Government alerted and went to meet the aircraft. It is an essential should explain how they think they can achieve their matter to stop this loophole, and I hope the Government objectives on the resources that they have so allocated. will immediately say that they will draft the necessary Lastly, I offer qualified support to Amendment 241A. regulations to support the implementation of the noble Illegal immigration is a very important subject that is Lord’s amendment. often ducked. We have looked at this, and it is very difficult to get beyond merely ballpark estimates, but it 5.15 pm is worth having a shot at and I think that the Government Lord Rosser: We have an amendment in this group should do it—not annually, because there is just not that calls for the Secretary of State to undertake a enough information for that, but it should be done review of border security. Part of that review would be and it would be worth doing. to consider the adequacy of resources currently available at all points of entry to the United Kingdom; it also provides for the review to be laid before both Houses Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, I am grateful to of Parliament within one year of the passing of this all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I shall Act. I do not want to make many points, since concerns be brief if I can, because—if I can make a pitch wearing about border security have been expressed already, but my Whip’s hat—we have six more groups of amendments I do not think that the Government know how many people to debate. are coming in and out of our country and who they It may help if I speak first to government are. They do not, for example, have any idea what the Amendment 239C, which I hope will be uncontroversial. net migration figure will be each year. It seems to come I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, for his support as much a surprise to the Government as to anyone else. on this amendment. This makes a minor change to We really have got to the stage when we have to get extend the maritime powers in the Bill to Northern a grip on our borders. After all, it was only recently—it Ireland port police by altering the definition of “Northern may have been last month—that a terror suspect on Ireland constable”in new Section 28Q of the Immigration bail departed at a major sea port. We have also had an and Asylum Act 1999, as inserted by paragraph 7 of instance of a terror suspect from the continent coming Schedule 11 to the Bill. in through the same route. It would appear that some The two harbour police forces in Northern Ireland, of those whom we regard as extremists perceive the the Belfast Harbour Police and Larne Harbour Police, ferry borders to be a weak link—and it looks as though were not initially included in the Bill as the categories they have some reason and justification for feeling that of officers listed are modelled on the maritime powers way, unfortunately. The Home Secretary really must in the Modern Slavery Act 2015. However, we have conduct an urgent review of border security at ferry listened to points made by Northern Irish Members in and other terminals and provide urgent reassurance another place and agree that a consistent approach that passports are properly checked on exit and arrival should be taken across the UK with the enforcement in the UK. of immigration control. Therefore, this amendment aligns I think that it is the case that more than two years the position of port police forces in Northern Ireland ago the Government were warned by the National with those port police forces elsewhere in the UK which Audit Office that there were worrying gaps in the new are already included in the Bill. It will be a matter for Border Force. A recent report from the Independent individual port police forces to consider whether they Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration suggests wish to use the powers or rely on the relevant territorial that those gaps are still there and that potential terrorists force—for example, the Police Service of Northern Ireland. can also enter our country unchecked—for example, Amendment 239BA would extend our penalties for as has already been mentioned, via private planes and misdirected passengers to general aviation sites, private boats—as well as there being some evidence that they landing strips and helipads. It is the Government’s can come in and out of the country through major intention to operate the misdirected flights penalties ports. Even if the Government do not feel inclined to only at sites where there is a designated control zone to accept my amendment—naturally, I hope that they which arriving passengers must be directed for border will—I hope that we will hear in the Minister’s response checks by the Border Force. I shall come on to the that some steps are being taken to tighten up on our points that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, made in a borders so that we know who is coming and going, not moment. Given the large number of general aviation only the numbers but who they are. I hope that it will sites, landing strips and helipads in the UK that do not be an end to reports, whether from the National Audit have a permanent Border Force presence, this amendment Office or from the Chief Inspector of Borders and is unnecessary and unworkable. It would place a Immigration, that there are gaps, and quite serious disproportionate burden on those sites. Border Force ones, that need plugging. officers attend such sites only when they need to check specific arrivals. Lord Green of Deddington: My Lords, I support On what the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, was saying Amendment 240. The sheer scale of immigration is a about the potential loophole, I should quickly mention major public concern. I agree with the noble Lord, how border authorities handle general aviation flights. GC 151 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 152

[LORD ASHTON OF HYDE] Lord Ashton of Hyde: We are always looking to The Border Force and police take an intelligence-led improve them. We agree that security is paramount. If approach to general aviation, which strikes a balance there are areas that the Chief Inspector of Borders between securing our borders and best managing and Immigration brings to the attention of the resources. Flights are risk-assessed in advance and, Government, they will certainly consider them. when appropriate, border authorities will physically Amendment 241A in the name of the noble Lord, examine crew, passengers and goods. There are in Lord Teverson, requires the Secretary of State to excess of 3,000 private air fields nationwide, and it undertake or commission an annual survey on illegal would be unfeasible for the Border Force and police migrants residing within the United Kingdom. I routinely to meet all arriving flights. It was noted by completely understand his reasoning and agree with it the independent inspection report published in January in theory. He asked whether we agree with the list. I that the Border Force has made a number of significant think it is a good start but there are problems. We are recent interventions in the general aviation environment. committed to tackling illegal immigration. The primary I confirm that all those travelling via general aviation aim of this Bill is to introduce measures to make it are subject to the same immigration and visa requirements harder for illegal migrants to live and work in the UK. as those using scheduled services. The noble Lord asks However, we do not believe that a Home Office survey whether we are doing something about it. The Counter- of illegal immigration in immigration is achievable, Terrorism and Security Act 2015 includes enabling nor that it would deliver the information set out in the provisions for a stronger legislative framework for amendment. Given the clandestine nature of illegal advanced notification for general aviation. Regulations migration we do not see a practical way to sample a will bring greater clarity to what is needed from the representative population of illegal immigrants to meet sector but also provide for appropriate sanctions to the aims set out in the amendment. enforce compliance by the small minority that do not As the noble Lord said, there have been research provide advanced notification under the current exercises in the past to estimate the illegal population, arrangements. but these, as he said, have been very speculative with Amendment 240 seeks to include provision for a very wide margins of error. They have looked only to statutory review of border security in the United estimate the overall level of illegal migration and are Kingdom. The Border Force operates a control regime not surveys of illegal migrants, which is a wholly which is predicated on checking 100% of scheduled different exercise. Very few government surveys are arrivals. Our collection of advanced passenger information mandated in this way.However, I reassure the Committee from carriers enables us to identify known subjects of that the Government are taking action to improve our interest to law enforcement agencies before they travel, understanding of the scale of illegal immigration in allowing us to intervene and direct airlines and ferry the UK. From 8 April 2015 the Home Office introduced companies not to carry certain passengers so that exit checks to provide more comprehensive information they never even set foot in the UK. The Border Force on travel movements across the UK border since that adopts an intelligence-led approach in combination date. These will help us take more effective action with its partners to identify and intercept contraband against those who remain here illegally. In the longer goods which have the potential to cause harm to the term the data will also provide valuable information public. Our visa regime provides another vital way by on the immigration routes and visas that are most which we are able to manage the threats from crime, subject to abuse, enabling the Government to make terrorism, illegal migration, and espionage. targeted changes to tackle this. The Independent Chief Inspector of Borders and I am afraid that the noble Lord will be disappointed Immigration regularly reviews Home Office immigration that I am unable to give the Government’s support for functions, including our management of border security. this amendment, but I hope that the thrust of the new Most significantly, following the independent chief legislation provides reassurance that the Government inspector’s critical review of the then UK Border take the issue of illegal immigration seriously and are Agency, Border Force was established as a separate taking active steps to counter the problem. In light of law enforcement body. The Home Office also works the points I have made on these matters, I invite the with a range of other partners, including port operators, noble Lords not to press their amendments. carriers and road hauliers. This allows us to review processes and security interventions to make border 5.30 pm security work efficiently, and to work together to intercept threats while keeping the flow of law-abiding Lord Marlesford: On the amendment tabled by the passengers and freight moving as smoothly as possible. noble Lord, Lord Wallace, how can the Home Office I assure the Committee that the Government keep the argue that there are no resources? It is absurd. It may UK’s border security arrangements under constant not be mega-bucks to use private planes, but it is quite review and these arrangements are subject to rigorous expensive. To charge a cost for someone to be at the scrutiny by the Independent Chief Inspector of Borders landing place to check the person is absurd, given and Immigration—as I have said—and by the Home the present terrorist situation and the fact that all the Affairs Select Committee. The reports and publications indicators say that the terror alert is very high. Look at of both of these are laid before Parliament. On this it another way. We do not hesitate to have police cars, basis, we do not consider there is any need to introduce probably with two police people in them, checking a further statutory review process. that people are not going 40 miles an hour in a 30 mile-an-hour limit, which they should not be doing, Lord Rosser: Are the Government satisfied with our but the resource is there. They are the real resources. It border security arrangements at the moment? is inexcusable not to be following up what the noble GC 153 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 154

Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, said. The Minister entirely covered. One has to use intelligence. As the says in triumph, “We have now introduced exit checks”, noble Lord replied, I was thinking of the days when but it is a real disgrace that the Government had not as a schoolboy I used to dip sheep on a farm. The done so long ago, certainly at the time of 9/11. policemen always turned up to check that you were dipping the sheep properly. In those days, there were Lord Ashton of Hyde: On that last point, I do not ways in which they made sure that the law was enforced know that one can blame just this Government, but I in all sorts of places around the country. Clearly, we accept the noble Lord’s point on exit checks. They are need a degree of intelligence. a useful procedure to have. I believe that we had them The use of private planes and private helicopters is in the past. We reintroduced them. Nobody is saying, clearly growing. This is not a static situation. The and I certainly did not say, that the reason we do not Government’s response therefore cannot be entirely have permanent Border Force personnel at every single static. They have to be much more aware of what is general aviation airfield is simply a matter of cost. The going on and of the potential for abuse and for people Border Force has 7,700 members, I think. If we had who are engaged in illegal activities, possibly even someone permanently at every single general aviation terrorism, to use this route as well as many legitimate airfield, we could use the whole of the Border Force people. on that. It is a question of value for money. We are not The noble Lord did not mention the Channel Islands sitting there doing nothing. As I tried to explain, loophole. I have asked a number of Written Questions under the Counter-Terrorism and Security Act, we are on it. I am struck that the liaison between the British extending the powers so that advance passenger Border Force and the authorities in the Channel Islands information can be enforced. It is an intelligence-led may not necessarily be as tight and mutual as we procedure. We do not have Border Force people sitting would wish. If one looks for areas where our border for weeks on end with no passengers arriving from controls may not be entirely secure, the Irish land abroad. We try to do it in a more proportionate and border and the Channel Islands maritime border are value-for-money way. the most vulnerable. I will be interested to hear what the Government have to say on that in particular. Lord Marlesford: I shall ask the Minister a very straightforward question. How is it that, when I was Above all, we need to be sure that the Government pressing for exit checks, I was constantly told, “We do do not give the impression that there is one law for the it by intelligence? We do not need to do it regularly”, rich and another for the rest of us. There are a number but it is now being done regularly? Does the Home of other areas where the Government are edging towards Office not understand that we are in a much more a situation where unkind people, or Private Eye, could dangerous position than we were? Will it wake up indeed suggest that there is now one law for the rich please? and another for the rest of us. I look forward to further discussions off the Floor with the Government. I beg Lord Ashton of Hyde: The Home Office understands leave to withdraw my amendment. that because it takes advice from the law enforcement agencies. Of course, we also take advice from my noble Amendment 239BA withdrawn. friend. It is not true to say that the Home Office does not recognise the security situation. In fact, the Home Clause 44 agreed. Secretary regards it as her highest priority. Schedule 10 agreed. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the noble Lord must clearly be too young to remember who abolished Clause 45 agreed. exit controls. It was indeed Margaret Thatcher, when Prime Minister, as an economy measure. She thought Schedule 11: Maritime enforcement that they were unnecessary and cut the number of people employed by the border service. That was some time ago. Amendment 239C Moved by Lord Bates Lord Green of Deddington: Perhaps I may correct 239C: Schedule 11, page 140, line 16, leave out from “means” the noble Lord. Exit checks to Europe were abolished to end of line 18 and insert “only a person who is— by the Conservative Government in 1994 and exit (a) a member of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, checks to the rest of the world were abolished by the (b) a member of the Police Service of Northern Ireland Labour Government in 1998. Both decisions were Reserve, or wrong. (c) a person appointed as a special constable in Northern Ireland by virtue of provision incorporating section 79 Lord Ashton of Hyde: They were amended by this of the Harbours, Docks, and Piers Clauses Act 1847;” Government. Amendment 239C agreed. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I tabled my amendment simply to make sure that the Government Schedule 11, as amended, agreed. and, in particular, the Home Office took this point on board. I am very happy to talk further. We are looking Clause 46 agreed. for a response from the Government on this. Of course we recognise that 3,000 private airports cannot be Amendment 240 not moved. GC 155 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 156

back, people would have no idea where else they might Amendment 241 have been or what they might have done. It made the Moved by Lord Marlesford whole scrutiny process extremely difficult. The Home 241: After Clause 46, insert the following new Clause— Office has got to learn to identify problems and think of the answers. “Obligation to provide information on passports (1) A condition of the issue of a new passport to, or the My right honourable friend the Prime Minister renewal of a passport of a British citizen who was either born produced a very interesting example in the last day or outside the United Kingdom or who was not a British citizen at two which was well worth saying. If we were to leave birth by Her Majesty’s Passport Office is that the citizen supplies Europe, the arrangements between France and Britain details of their citizenship of other countries and of passports for policing people coming into Britain from France held relating to any such status at the time of application. might be in danger of falling down and being abolished. (2) A person holding a passport issued or renewed in accordance The camps might then appear in Folkestone or somewhere with subsection (1) must supply that Office with information in southern England. That would not be acceptable, regarding any acquisition or loss of citizenship of another country within one month of such a change. but it is perfectly easy to deal with. In the case of people coming by ferry, the answer is simple. If the (3) Information gathered by Her Majesty’s Passport Office for the purposes of subsections (1) and (2) shall be made available— French were to say that we could no longer have British immigration officers on their territory—and I (a) to the Home Secretary for consideration as part of a decision made under section 40(4A) of the British cannot believe they would—we would put them on the Nationality Act 1981; ships and not allow people to disembark without (b) to immigration officers for consideration when undertaking having been checked. If they were found unsatisfactory their duties.” they could stay on the ship and go back again. There are already perfectly good arrangements for airlines. The Prime Minister was right to draw attention to this Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I do not apologise for possibility. It would be tiresome if they overturned a raising yet again the simple point that it is necessary very good system which has existed for three or four and urgent that the Government should arrange to years. When I was on the EU Home Affairs Sub- have details of passports that British passport-holders Committee, we visited Calais and saw the policing hold other than British passports. I have nothing arrangements. We have all seen them when we travel against people having as many passports as they want. between the continent and Britain. It is a perfectly There are lots of reasons why they may, such as satisfactory arrangement: the French police are in the sentimental family connections, birth connections or station in London and the British in the station in travel connections. There were days when you had to France. have two passports if you went to China because the All I am doing in this amendment is saying that it Americans did not like a chop from China. There were should be required that those who have other passports days when you could not go to certain Arab countries notify the British passport authority. When I raised if there was a chop from Israel. The Israelis gave up this in an earlier debate, the response was that when the chop, so it was made less necessary. All I am saying somebody applies for a passport they do have to notify is that it is essential that the Government should be about other passports they hold. I could read it from aware, so that when somebody produces their passport Hansard but I will not bother because the noble Lord at the airport, puts it on the scanner—that is a big has read it himself. The difference is that it is not on technical advance now being implemented—and the the record: it is merely looked at, at the time. That is an immigration officer sees the readout, he or she should incredible gap. Maybe the Minister will be able to tell also know what other passports that person has. That me that if people have applied for a new British is all I am asking. It is very simple. passport—or renewed one—and have shown, declared The Government have resisted and resisted this. I or revealed that they also have a non-British one, that am afraid that it has become a bit of a Home Office is now on the record and shows on the screen when game of “Yes Minister”. It is rather like my firearms their passports are scanned on arrival in Britain. I do register, which took 10 years to get accepted. The not think he will be able to tell me that it is, but I electronic register of all firearms is now in extremely would be delighted if he could. It is now necessary to good working order and very effective, but if I had not extend the system so that all passports held by British persisted for what turned out to be 10 years it would people have on the record details of other passports not be there. held. I beg to move. I now ask for something pre-emptive. In this awful world we live in, we have to think about what can go Lord Swinfen (Con): My Lords, I support the wrong. In an earlier debate somebody, I think the amendment in the name of Lord Marlesford. I have noble Lord, Lord Rosser, gave the example of somebody relatives with dual Australian and British citizenship. who had skipped out on bail, apparently with ease. I Going in and out of Australia, they use their Australian was put on to the point of needing to know about passports; going in and out of Britain, they use their other passports six years ago by people from the British ones. Even when flying from one to the other, security world who said they had great difficulty and they change their passports over because it is much gave an example of madrassahs in Pakistan. Plenty of quicker for them to get through immigration in both people—and this is no criticism of the situation—have countries by using the passport of the country in Pakistani and British passports. They would use their which they land. However, there is then no record of British passport to go in and out of the UK and get up the journey in the other passport. The passports of to mischief using the other one. When they came both countries should have a note that they have dual GC 157 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 158 citizenship and, possibly, give the passport number of British passport applicant to obtain a British passport the other country. My noble friend’s suggestion is in a name and identity which is not consistent with an eminently sensible. overseas passport. The holding of dual or second nationality is not in itself relevant to the issuing of a Lord Green of Deddington: Will the Minister ask his British passport. Instead, HMPO collects the information officials whether this apparent gap makes nonsense of on any other passport held in order to help confirm the net migration figures? It could confuse them. the identity of the applicant. It provides an additional element of identity verification. 5.45 pm Therefore, requiring a British passport holder who holds or held dual nationality to supply information Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, when I was in outside the British passport application process would government I asked on a number of occasions how be an unnecessary and additional function for HMPO. many British citizens hold dual nationality. We all Failure to notify any acquisition or loss of citizenship know that we run into a number of problems with would require an enforcement and penalty structure. dual nationality, particularly when a British citizen of This would in our view be disproportionate and likely origin of another country is taken into custody in the result in legal challenges as the failure to notify would country of origin. Dual nationality is a very cloudy have no impact on the validity of the British passport. concept. I should simply like to add that it would be As I said, it is already a mandatory requirement for all very helpful if the Government would take this back applicants to submit any other passports that they and possibly even provide a Green Paper on the whole hold, British or otherwise, when applying for a new issue of dual nationality within Britain. We all have passport. However, I can tell my noble friend that the friends in that situation. I have a nephew and niece Home Office continues to explore ways in which who hold British and Irish passports and a nephew information held within the department is shared who holds British and South African passports. My effectively to help to prevent and detect crime. My niece, who works for a development charity, sometimes noble friend will be pleased to learn that HMPO is finds it extremely useful not to be a British citizen looking at enhancing how information at the point of when she is in a rather difficult country. application is collected and shared across Home Office There are some major issues here. A substantial agencies by making better use of technology. This minority have British and Pakistani citizenship, and would include information collected on dual national another substantial minority have British and Bangladeshi passport holders at the point of application. Information citizenship. These are delicate issues. They raise large is held by the Home Office on dual nationals who public policy questions and some security questions. It apply for British citizenship and who subsequently would be useful if the Government would commit apply for a British passport. Such information is necessary to looking at this matter further and reporting back to to progress the application for citizenship or when making Parliament. jointly an application for citizenship and a passport. Outside of either process, the need for information on Lord Ashton of Hyde: My Lords, I am grateful to dual nationality would be unnecessary and would not all noble Lords who have spoken. Perhaps I should serve any useful purpose. first declare an interest in that one of my daughters Finally, I recognise that my noble friend has concerns has dual nationality. Indeed, she has two passports. about the security implications if his suggestions are I start by saying that the noble Lord, Lord Green, not accepted, and I agree that the security of the very kindly asked me to ask my officials rather than public is of the highest importance. That is why we ask answer his question. I certainly will ask my officials. the views of the law enforcement agencies each time Equally, I will take on board the comments of the this matter is raised. Their response remains consistent— noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and take them back to the that the establishment of a dual national database is department. not considered operationally essential. Despite that, I fear that my noble friend will not be convinced by this My noble friend Lord Marlesford has form on this response, but I hope that he will acknowledge that question. I am conscious that I am but the latest in a information on dual nationality is already collected long line of Ministers—“distinguished Ministers” is and maintained. We do not see additional security benefit being whispered to me—including my noble friends in extending the data collection process. I respectfully Lady Anelay, Lord Taylor of Holbeach and of course request that the amendment be withdrawn. Lord Bates, who, within a very short space of time, have answered the question put by my noble friend Lord Marlesford during debates on immigration Bills, Lord Swinfen: Does my noble friend consider that, counterterrorism Bills and in Questions in the House. when someone has more than one passport, the other As I said, I am just the latest in a long line and so, in passport should be noted in the British passport so hope rather than in expectation, here goes. that officials know that there is more than one nationality My noble friend will be aware from his long-standing involved and other passports may also be held? interest in this matter that Her Majesty’s Passport Office requires holders of passports issued by another Lord Ashton of Hyde: As I said, we are trying to country to provide details of that passport at the time make that information available by using electronic of application. He made the point that he understood means, and we are looking at that at the moment. We that; the question was whether it would be on an have not received advice that that is necessary.Information electronic, searchable register. The reason for asking is always useful to have, but it is not considered an for other passports is to minimise the ability of the operational necessity at the moment. GC 159 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 160

Lord Green of Deddington: I think the important Northern Ireland in relation to this part of the Bill. word is “essential”—operationally essential. If you We have listened, and government Amendments 241B ask that question, you will get the answer that you to 241E, 242A, 242B, 242D to 242F, 242H, 242K and would hope for. But would it be operationally valuable? 245B represent our response. They are many in number Were they asked that question and, if so, what was the but they have a simple purpose: to apply to Scotland, answer? Wales and Northern Ireland on a uniform basis the duty to ensure that all public sector workers who work Lord Ashton of Hyde: I shall turn the question in customer-facing roles speak fluent English; save round. If you ask any law enforcement agency if it that, in Wales, the duty will be fulfilled by fluency in would like some information, it will always say yes. English or Welsh. It will apply only to public authorities The question is whether it is nice to have something or that exercise functions in relation to matters which are it is an essential tool, and that is the advice that we not devolved. At present, the Bill provides for the duty have received at the moment. to apply to public authorities exercising any functions of a public nature in Wales. The respective Governments have since agreed that it will apply to public authorities Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I am afraid that my only to the extent that they carry out functions in noble friend has reinforced my argument, by indicating relation to matters which are not within the legislative that the information is already being collected and it is competence of the Welsh Assembly. only a matter of having it on the same record as the passport record. It would obviously be useful to know, Noble Lords will have noticed that the Bill does not once you know that somebody has another passport, yet provide for the duty to apply to Northern Ireland. when they are entering or leaving the UK on the other In the other place, a commitment was made to reconsider passport, which will often be screened. If it showed that position in this House. Our amendments now that that person had a British passport as well, that provide for the duty to apply only to public authorities might well be a clue and be useful. But the fact is that that carry out functions in relation to excepted matters they are collecting information and then not using it; in Northern Ireland. that is my complaint. I shall withdraw the amendment, Noble Lords will have noted that the Bill already but I will come back to it on Report, when we can have provides for the duty to apply in Scotland only to a proper debate. public authorities exercising functions in relation to reserved matters, so there are no further amendments affecting this region. In these circumstances, I beg to Lord Ashton of Hyde: I must correct the noble Lord move. on one thing. The Passport Office collects information for foreign passport holders when they apply for a British passport. What it does not do is to maintain it Baroness Lister of Burtersett: My Lords, I rise to consistently through life; for example, it does not keep speak to Amendment 242, and I am grateful to all up-to-date addresses, and things like that. What I was noble Lords who have added their name to it. The saying was that, for the information that it does collect, purpose of the amendment is to ensure that Clause 47 on application and renewal only, it will attempt to does not lead to discrimination against public sector make available throughout the other law enforcement workers in a consumer-facing role whose first language agencies. But it does not collect information across is British Sign Language by explicitly exempting them dual nationalities, as the noble Lord would want, from the provision. except when someone applies or renews a British In his letter of 19 January to the noble Lord, Lord passport. Bates, the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster- General stated: Lord Marlesford: I beg leave to withdraw the “The most significant additions to the Code”— amendment. the code of practice, that is— “will come from organisations strengthening the content with Amendment 241 withdrawn. guidance and practical examples—notably in areas of interest to Noble Lords during the Second Reading debate; avoiding Amendment 241A not moved. discrimination and providing clarity in how the duty applies to those who communicate using British Sigh Language. We strongly support the use of British Sign Language”. Clause 47: English language requirements for public It also said that one of the main findings of the sector workers consultation was: “Further guidance, clarity and practical examples could be added to support authorities’ understanding and practical application Amendment 241B of the duty to reduce any discriminatory impact. Business Disability Moved by Lord Keen of Elie Forum and Signature will provide case studies for inclusion in the Code to clearly demonstrate application of the duty and the 241B: Clause 47, page 45, line 29, at beginning insert “in responsibilities of public authorities towards members of protected England and Wales or Scotland,” groups and to advance equality”. This is very welcome and suggests that the Government The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of accept the spirit, if not the letter, of the amendment. Elie) (Con): My Lords, we are grateful for the consideration Nevertheless, Sense, which alerted me to this issue, of the devolved Administrations and the interest in believes very strongly that writing an exemption into the other place of Members of Parliament representing the Bill would remove the possibility of misinterpretation GC 161 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 162 by any authority, which might still occur if clarification practice when it should be written clearly in the Bill so were in only the code of practice. Failing that, I that there is no doubt about how public sector bodies wanted to ensure that the Minister’s assurance in the should respond. letter appears in Hansard, because it is crucial that we ensure that the Bill cannot be said to discriminate indirectly against deaf and deafblind people, for whom Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, my noble friend Lord British Sign Language is their first language in either Paddick and I have three amendments in this group: its standard form or as adapted for deafblind people. I Amendments 242C, 242G and 242J. Before I come to am told that its grammatical structure is different them, I shall say that I support the amendment on from English, so it is possible, on the face of it, that British Sign Language. My noble friend Lady Humphreys someone might argue that someone using it is not is in her place. She heard the confirmation about the speaking fluent English. Welsh language and welcomes it. I say that in the context of wishing this clause were not here at all. I I would be grateful if the Minister would be willing appreciate that there was a line in the Conservative to look again at the possibility of writing a clear Party’s manifesto for the previous election and that exemption into the Bill so as to remove all doubt and is why I have not sought to take these clauses out therefore reassure organisations such as Sense. If that altogether. really is not possible for some good reason, I would at least welcome a clear statement on the record—based The impact assessment on these clauses confirmed on but perhaps going beyond what is in the letter of my anxiety about their potential for encouraging 19 January—of what the code of practice is intended discrimination and harassment. It says: to say regarding how Clause 47 should not discriminate “The policy objective is to ensure a sufficient standard of against users of British Sign Language. fluent English is maintained and can be enforced … This is intended to improve the quality, efficiency and safety of public service provision and support taxpayers confidence they are 6pm receiving value for money”. Lord Swinfen: My Lords, I have been working in So far, so good. this House since the late 1970s for people with various “This proposal is expected to support current priorities for the forms of disability, and I note that British Sign Language management of immigration into the UK”. is now accepted throughout. I do not understand why the Government are taking it out of the Bill. I know I have littered questions marks, the word “prejudice”, that it is unlikely to be used very often because it is an exclamation mark and the word “tangentially”around much more difficult for someone who uses British that statement. Sign Language to be face-to-face with the public, but We would prefer to take these clauses out there are members of the public who use British Sign altogether, but the first of our amendments looks at Language as their first language. Therefore, it is essential the provision for expanding the requirements into the that some of the people with whom they have to relate private sector. It is a probing amendment, and I hope when going about their business also use British Sign that the Minister is aware of the questions that I Language. It is important that the amendment is intend to ask. If this is of such concern, why, in a included in the Bill. service context where so many public services are provided on behalf of the Government by the private Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, I am a signatory to sector, does the Bill not immediately extend to services the amendment. It is an extremely important issue which are contracted out? Will there be changes to the because the assumption is that the code of practice requirements as they affect contractors? Has consultation and the public sector equality duty will be sufficient in taken place with the private sector? Will there be a this case. Clause 47(8), which I have reread a number single code of practice? Since so much is outsourced, it of times, makes it very clear that somebody in a seems odd if work which is outsourced is not covered, customer-facing role should speak fluent English. The but I wonder whether the private sector will be happy Department for Work and Pensions has accepted British with this as a requirement. I am interested in the Sign Language as a language since 2003. We do not consultation. want to permit any confusion to arise, and the way to Amendment 242G is on the code of practice, which solve this is simply for the Government to accept the under Clause 50 may make different provision for amendment because it makes it absolutely clear that different purposes. I have suggested, British Sign Language is an acceptable language and “and for different roles or descriptions of roles”. that it is not just a question of an employee having It may well be that the Minister will confirm that that spoken English. is within Clause 50(6) because there are clearly different I hope that the Minister will understand that there things that people in the public sector do in different are some 70,000 people in this country for whom roles or may need to do. The impact assessment states British Sign Language is their first language. As the that the code, noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, made clear, this is not just “will be flexible enough to account for the differing requirements about those employed in a customer-facing role; it is and existing arrangements of different public sector bodies”, about how you respond to customers who want to speak to somebody who can communicate through but it would be good to have confirmation that the British Sign Language. I hope that the Minister will legislation allows for that. not see this as some kind of bureaucratic minor matter, Amendment 242J would require a review within as it is very important in terms of the public sector five years. I ask the Committee to understand this equality duty. It cannot simply be left to a code of amendment in the context of my initial remarks. GC 163 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 164

[BARONESS HAMWEE] this being geared to the public sector alone? I do not Noble Lords will understand from the points that I know that I have particular enthusiasm for seeing it have listed in the amendment the matters with which apply across the private sector since I have some of the I am concerned: reservations, subject to what the Minister may say, “the extent and types of authority subject to the requirement; … about the extent to which this could lead to some the standard required; … procedures for complaints”— discrimination. No doubt the noble and learned Lord it has been pointed out to me that it is sad that will explain how it is going to work. As I understand requirements are being put in place and that it is felt it, the definition of speaking fluent English is laid out necessary to have a complaints procedure designed in the Bill: from the beginning— “For the purposes of this Part a person speaks fluent English “direct and indirect discrimination which has or may have arisen; if the person has a command of spoken English which is sufficient to enable the effective performance of the person’s role”. and … the resources required to meet this requirement”. Who will judge that and decide whether their English The Race Equality Foundation says, is sufficient? Is it open to somebody to complain that “the draft code is poorly drafted, poorly structured and … there is that criterion has not been met? If so, what then nothing to prevent users of public services making complaints on the basis of accent and appearance. These provisions may encourage, happens? and semi-legitimise, racially-motivated harassment under the guise of challenging someone’s ability to speak ‘fluent’ English. There 6.15 pm is already evidence on the greater likelihood for black and minority On the issue of the provision appearing to apply ethnic people to be subject to the disciplinary process in public services”. only to the public sector, Network Rail is currently in the public sector but the Government are busily looking It is obviously concerned about these requirements at whether they can flog it off. Network Rail is responsible expanding that likelihood. for some of our major stations in London and therefore The Institute of Equality and Diversity Professionals will have staff who meet the public and are involved in was very moderate in its language: talking to and addressing them. Does it mean that we “No amount of guidance in the draft Code of Practice can could start off with Network Rail being covered by the save what is an irredeemably unworkable scheme”. Bill but, if it were sold off, it would then cease to be It talks about: covered by the Bill? That is, this provision is thought “The opportunities for directly and indirectly discriminatory, to be necessary when people are in the public sector and harassment, claims”, but is no longer considered necessary if those same and reminds us that harassment is a form of discrimination people doing the same job end up in the private sector. under EU equality law. It asks about the constitutional Likewise, what happens in relation to the National basis. I think I would ask about the evidence base. Health Service? What happens if operations are currently The institute also points out that: conducted in the public sector in the National Health “The use of the terms ‘high standard of English’ … and Service but then certain operations are put out to be ‘fluency’ indicate a ‘mother tongue’ proficiency, which is not undertaken in the private sector? Are we being told permissible in EU law”. that this is a vital and necessary piece of legislation if Another of its comments says, the operation is carried out by the National Health Service in the public sector but it is not necessary if the “these measures will leave public bodies open to extensive litigation, primarily on grounds of race and ethnic origins, but also on same operation is outsourced to be dealt with within grounds of disability, in relation to … discrimination and harassment the private sector of the health service? Some clarification claims”. on those points would be much appreciated. I said—I think at Second Reading—that I regard the ability to communicate as important, indeed essential, Lord Keen of Elie: I am obliged to the noble Lord. in the public sector, as in all other parts of life, but I Clearly some important issues are raised here. The cannot be the only person in this Committee who has noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, noted that there was encountered someone whose English is perfect but some reference to this issue in the Conservative Party who cannot make themselves understood. manifesto. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will correct me if I am wrong but it also featured in the Labour Party manifesto, so I would understand him to have a Lord Rosser: I will listen with interest to the Minister’s reasonable degree of insight into what is proposed response to my noble friend Lady Lister’s amendment. here. As far as I understand it, the Government will accept British Sign Language—or at least they are saying it is provided for in the code—but they do not wish to put Lord Rosser: I am asking how the Government that in the Bill. I will wait with interest to see why that intend to apply this. It is their legislation. is unnecessary or undesirable since I am not quite sure at the moment what the answer is. Lord Keen of Elie: I fully understand the nature of I also want to pursue the point made by the noble the noble Lord’s inquiry; I was just pointing out that Baroness, Lady Hamwee. I am sure the Minister will the rationale behind this legislation was recognised put me right if I have misread this, but the language not only in the Conservative Party manifesto but in requirements refer to public sector workers. I take it the Labour Party manifesto. that means that any private sector organisation with I begin by looking at Amendment 242, moved by customer-facing roles will not be covered by the Bill. I the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. I am glad to have the ask the same question as the noble Baroness. Why is opportunity to reassure her and other noble Lords GC 165 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 166 that the duty being imposed by this provision does not I am very grateful to the Minister for the very clear apply to individuals who communicate using British statement he has made that this will not apply to Sign Language. I believe it may help if I explain that it British Sign Language. It may be that he is going to will not be the responsibility of individual members of explain this, but why can that not be put in the Bill staff to meet this duty; it will be the responsibility of to remove all doubt? public authorities, as the employers. I remind noble Lords that, as employers, public authorities have a Lord Keen of Elie: Our position is that that is duty under the Equality Act 2010 to make reasonable simply not required. Where you have somebody in a adjustments for their staff. If reasonable, a British customer-facing role who communicates by way of Sign Language interpreter would be provided. In addition, British Sign Language, they will have a British Sign any worker or job applicant who communicates using Language interpreter available. It is the interpreter British Sign Language must be considered for recruitment who will be required by the employer to be fluent in on a par with any other applicant. English. That is the situation that will apply. To comply with the duty in Part 7, public authorities must ensure that the British Sign Language interpreters Lord Swinfen: I am awfully sorry but I do not whom they employ, rather than the recipients of such entirely understand what the Minister is saying. I a workplace adjustment, speak fluent English. Given cannot see the difficulty in including British Sign that fluent spoken English is the reason the interpreter Language speakers who are able to communicate with has been engaged, there should be no difficulty at all members of the public whose only language is British in public authorities meeting that duty. In those Sign Language. The Minister is saying that that is not circumstances, I seek to reassure the noble Baroness, necessary. It means that if I speak only British Sign Lady Lister, about the position in regard to British Language, I will not be able to speak to anyone in the Sign Language. authority. That is not satisfactory. Either I am not understanding the Minister or he is not explaining Lord Swinfen: My Lords, perhaps I may interrupt himself as well as a lawyer should. my noble and learned friend for a moment. What is the position of a member of the public who uses Lord Keen of Elie: It appears that, although we British Sign Language? My noble and learned friend each purport to be speaking fluent English, we may says that provision is made for the authority worker not be communicating with each other as clearly as who uses British Sign Language to be able to do their might be the case. In circumstances where a person work in their office, but I am talking about a member employs British Sign Language and there is a customer- of the public who goes to the public authority and his facing individual available to communicate with them language is British Sign Language. There must be in British Sign Language, the person communicating someone who can communicate with that person. I in British Sign Language will either have with them a am not expecting everyone to have British Sign Language. British Sign Language interpreter or will be able to One can use videoconferencing to deal with it, but communicate in British Sign Language and speak there must be provision for members of the general fluent English. public who use British Sign Language to communicate with appropriate people in the authority. Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I think there are two different debates going on. To pick up the point made Lord Keen of Elie: In circumstances where there is by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, the explanation provision for British Sign Language to be available, given by the Minister about how this would work is, to there will also be an English language interpreter me, intelligible, but it does not reflect the words in the available. Where a member of the public wishes to Bill because it suggests that the person who is working use or employ British Sign Language, they will, in in a customer-facing role is the interpreter, not the circumstances where it is available, be able to do that, person who is doing the substantive job. If the and the person communicating with them in a customer- Government’s concern is that the drafting is not invented facing role will, of course, be perfectly entitled to here, I hope that they can find a way of explaining that employ British Sign Language. The provisions of the there are two roles in the situation which the noble Bill are not prescriptive. They are not saying that the Baroness set out. only language that can be employed is English or Welsh. In circumstances where there is the ability to Lord Keen of Elie: I wonder whether I may respond communicate in a customer-facing role by means of a briefly to that and then make a further observation. In different language, be it British Sign Language or circumstances where somebody is in a customer-facing otherwise, then it may perfectly properly be employed. role and uses only British Sign Language, they will, as Whether it will be available on each and every occasion a matter of practice and pursuant to the Equality Act when somebody arrives and is faced with a customer- 2010, have available to them a British Sign Language facing role is a different matter altogether. Clearly, at interpreter. So they will be communicating in a customer- present it is not invariably available. facing role, together with a British Sign Language interpreter. Baroness Lister of Burtersett: I am not a lawyer, so I do not accept the interpretation of the clause that I rise with some trepidation, but the Bill states: has been advanced by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, “A public authority must ensure that each person who works but, having regard to the considerations of time, if for the public authority in a customer-facing role speaks fluent nothing else, I will take this matter away and reflect English”. upon the observations that have been made. GC 167 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 168

Lord Shipley: I thank the Minister for that. I think Lord Keen of Elie: I can indeed confirm that. That that that would help because I had not understood is the purpose of the provisions in the code of practice. what the problem was with making this amendment to the Bill. I hope that, if we come back to this matter on Baroness Hamwee: I am grateful. Report, we may have some greater clarity on it because it seems to me that that would solve the problem. Lord Keen of Elie: I quite understand the spirit of the noble Baroness’s third amendment, Amendment 242J. Lord Keen of Elie: I am obliged to the noble Lord. The Government intend to review the implementation He will appreciate that I, too, am concerned about of this policy. We will commit to doing so in the whether it is necessary for such a provision to appear government response to the recent consultation on in the Bill. Our view is that the point made by the the draft code of practice. noble Baroness, Lady Lister, is an important one but On further inspection, the details of the report that it is already accommodated by the terms of the described in the amendment appear to impose a significant Bill. However, as I said, I will reflect on that. reporting burden on public authorities. The Government’s I turn to the observations made by the noble Baroness, review will certainly look to cover the principles of the Lady Hamwee, in addressing Amendments 242C, 242G recommendation, such as setting proportionate standards and 242J regarding the implementation of the various for job roles and avoiding cases of discrimination, duties, as well as the observations made by the noble because these were the main areas of concern voiced Lord, Lord Rosser, on the question of public sector by respondents to the recent open consultation. So these workers. points will most certainly be addressed in that context. Beginning with Amendment 242C and the question Regarding the position of Network Rail, if there are of public and private sector workers, I shall seek to public sector workers there, they will be covered by the allay the concerns of the noble Baroness but will resist initial provisions. As they move into the private sector, the amendment. We have no desire at this time to lay they will be covered by the further provisions that will regulations before further consultation. At present, be brought forward following consultation. I hope the Government are committed to carrying out an that reassures the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. I do not open consultation before calling on the reserve powers understand that there are any provisions regarding the to expand the scope of the duty to the private and National Health Service in the Bill. In these circumstances, third sectors. That is why the provision is expressed in I invite noble Lords not to press their amendments. its present form. Amendment 241B agreed. The government response to the open consultation, which is scheduled to be made available to noble Lords 6.30 pm for our Report stage discussion, will provide preliminary views on this matter. At present, the responses are quite balanced. Many welcome the expansion specifically Amendments 241C to 241E for the safety and comfort of patients in the social care Moved by Lord Bates sector, for example. Others are understandably concerned 241C: Clause 47, page 45, line 31, at end insert— in case any costs of enhanced recruitment practices have “( ) in Northern Ireland, as an agency worker within the to be passed on to public authorities which are contracting. meaning of the Agency Workers Regulations (Northern We do not accept that such costs will increase. Public Ireland) 2011 (SR 2011/350) in respect of whom the authorities can simply make job descriptions more public authority is the hirer within the meaning of those specific; there is no need to increase costs. So we do regulations,” not consider it necessary at this stage to contemplate 241D: Clause 47, page 45, line 35, at beginning insert “in the proposal in Amendment 242C. relation to England and Wales and Scotland,” Regarding the noble Baroness’s second amendment, 241E: Clause 47, page 45, line 36, after “1996,” insert— Amendment 242G, I seek to provide reassurance that “( ) in relation to Northern Ireland, has the meaning given the principal focus of the code of practice underpinning by Article 236(3) of the Employment Rights (Northern this duty will be to assist public authorities in setting Ireland) Order 1996 (SI 1996/1919 (NI 16)),” language expectations for different job roles. I hope, therefore, that she will agree that there is no need to Amendments 241C to 241E agreed. provide for this in the Bill, as it will be an element of Amendment 242 not moved. the code of practice. I am conscious of the variations that may occur so Clause 47, as amended, agreed. far as fluency in language is concerned. Indeed, as a Scot, it is a matter of particular concern to me as well. Clearly fluency will be determined by the employer—and, Clause 48: Meaning of “public authority” in this context, by the employer alone. Amendments 242A and 242B Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, to be absolutely precise Moved by Lord Bates about this, I hear what is intended regarding the code 242A: Clause 48, page 46, line 17, after “Part” insert “in of practice but can the Minister confirm that, relation to those functions” “different provision for different purposes”, 242B: Clause 48, page 46, line 20, at end insert— encompasses my point about different roles? That is “(4A) A person who exercises functions in relation to Wales is the wording in the Bill. a public authority for the purposes of this Part in relation to those GC 169 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 170 functions only if and to the extent that those functions relate to a Clause 55: Immigration skills charge matter which is outside the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales. (4B) A person who exercises functions in relation to Northern Amendment 242L Ireland is a public authority for the purposes of this Part in relation to those functions only if and to the extent that those Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire functions relate to an excepted matter. 242L: Clause 55, page 49, line 12, at end insert— (4C) In subsection (4B) “Northern Ireland” and “excepted “( ) Regulations under this section must provide for exemption matter” have the same meanings as in the Northern Ireland from a charge in the case of an application made— Act 1998.” (a) to fill a skills gap directly concerned with the provision Amendments 242A and 242B agreed. of education; (b) by an institution whose primary function is the provision Clause 48, as amended, agreed. of education or skills training; (c) to fill a skills gap directly concerned with the provision Clause 49: Power to expand meaning of person of health services; working for public authority (d) by an institution whose primary function is the provision Amendment 242C not moved. of health services.”

Amendments 242D to 242F Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I recognise Moved by Lord Bates that it is late. This is an important proposal on which 242D: Clause 49, page 46, line 42, leave out “or” the House of Commons spent precisely five minutes 242E: Clause 49, page 47, line 1, at beginning insert “in during its wind-up in Committee. I have another England and Wales or Scotland,” important amendment still to come, Amendment 242S 242F: Clause 49, page 47, line 3, at end insert “, or on the tier 1 investor charge, to which I attach a great ( ) in Northern Ireland, as an agency worker within the deal of importance. I have received quite a lot of meaning of the Agency Workers Regulations (Northern outside support and some outside briefing on both Ireland) 2011 (SR 2011/350) in respect of whom the these amendments. I am conscious that time is short, but contractor is the hirer within the meaning of those regulations.” these are important issues. It is always the case that the last clauses of a Bill get the least attention. Amendments 242D to 242F agreed. The proposal for an immigration skills charge is a major innovation, not yet fully developed. It was first Clause 49, as amended, agreed. floated in a speech by the Prime Minister two weeks after the May election, less than nine months ago. Clause 50: Duty to issue codes of practice He said, Amendment 242G not moved. “we will reform our immigration and labour market rules— reducing the demand for skilled workers and cracking down on Clause 50 agreed. those who exploit low-skilled workers. That starts with training our own people. Clause 51 agreed. For too long we’ve had a shortage of workers in certain roles. Engineers, nurses, teachers, chefs—we haven’t had enough Brits Clause 52: Application of Part to Wales trained in these areas and companies have had to fill the gaps with people from overseas. With Sajid Javid as the new business Amendment 242H secretary we’re going to get far better at training our own people. This involves creating 3 million more apprenticeships—and we Moved by Lord Bates will consult on getting the businesses that use foreign labour to 242H: Clause 52, page 48, line 5, leave out “in both England help fund them through a new visa levy. and” and insert “outside Wales and in” And today I can announce we will consult on another big change. As we improve the training of British workers, we should—over Amendment 242H agreed. time—be able to lower the number of skilled workers we have to bring in from elsewhere. So as we embark on this massive skills Clause 52, as amended, agreed. drive, we will ask the Migration Advisory Committee to advise on significantly reducing the level of economic migration from outside Amendment 242J not moved. the EU”. Note that the Prime Minister emphasised that the Clause 53: Interpretation of Part Government would focus on a massive skills drive and consult on another big change that would follow. He Amendment 242K noted that some of the skills in greatest shortage are Moved by Lord Bates for teachers and nurses—he could have added doctors. 242K: Clause 53, page 48, line 18, at end insert— However, in spite of an earlier reference in his speech ““Wales” has the same meaning as in the Government of to “a whole government approach” to the immigration Wales Act 2006.” issue, he does not note that these are public sector jobs, for whose training the Government lay down Amendment 242K agreed. targets and conditions, and for which government departments such as health and education bear some Clause 53, as amended, agreed. responsibility. There is no mention of these departments Clause 54 agreed. in the speech—BIS is the only one mentioned. GC 171 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 172

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] How many apprenticeships will the estimated £240 million The Government asked the Migration Advisory to be raised from this charge pay for? Will it get Committee to advise on how to take this loosely anywhere near funding 3 million apprenticeships? Business, defined idea forward. The Migration Advisory Committee not unnaturally, sees the double imposition of the levy report was published on 19 January 2016, just three and the immigration skills charge as adding to the weeks ago, after the Commons had completed its burdens on the private sector, without a coherent consideration of the Bill. It addresses the issue of the government approach to labour market policy that is introduction of a skills charge in the context of a linked to education, at all levels, and to training. In the review of the entire tier 2 visas category. It recommends public sector, the Government have lifted the cap on raising the minimum salary thresholds, limiting the numbers in nurse training while, at the same time, period in which skills shortages can be declared for ending nursing bursaries, and so deterring potential any particular sector, and introducing a charge at a nurses from entering the profession. They have done level it suggests should be between £500 and £2,000 that at the same time as they recognise the need to per year—I emphasise “per year”. The Government increase their numbers. intend this to be a perpetual charge, and they have There are particular issues for UK universities and chosen £1,000 for every year that someone from outside for medicine—and I thank Universities UK for the the EEA is employed by a British company, university, brief that it gave me. The global reputation and quality school or hospital. One university has estimated that of UK universities and medical research depends on this will cost it £800,000 a year; others suggest higher the international circulation of academic and medical figures, particularly for universities with global reputations careers, with British students spending time studying in science and engineering. The CBI has warned that it and working abroad, and overseas students and professors will impose additional charges on top of the new coming to work in the UK. I have visited universities apprenticeship levy on innovative firms. in several countries as an academic where the majority This new MAC report also notes in paragraph 1.25 of the staff began their careers as local students, that, moved on to conduct graduate research there, and “the public sector may require time to transition to the new salary were then appointed to the faculty, without much, if thresholds”, any, intellectual challenge from exposure to other since it is in the public sector that recruits from outside institutions or countries. None of these universities is the EEA are paid less than their UK equivalents, rather anywhere in the global rankings, but our world-class than more. The MAC’s “strongest recommendation”, universities depend on scholars coming in and out. “is for any changes to be kept under active review”. The Prime Minister loudly declared that he wanted to It is hardly surprising, therefore, that James Brokenshire, attract the “best and the brightest” from outside the in a speech in London in late January, declared that UK; imposing this charge is more likely to keep them the Government are “in listening mode”on this proposal, out. which, as we all know, is code for saying that Whitehall This charge will obstruct the circulation of scholars has not yet worked out what it means and still needs into the UK, and impose additional burdens on university advice from the outside. budgets. It will have a particularly adverse effect on So why are we being presented with such a blunt the STEM subjects, where over 15% of current staff proposal today? Why have the Government not consulted are from outside the EU. But then, a substantial further on its implications for the public sector, above proportion of UK citizens in these disciplines in British all for the health service, universities and schools? The universities have studied and taught overseas in their Prime Minister said that he was going to do so, but it turn. Have the Government thought through how far has not yet happened. Have the Government yet consulted this principle of penalties and charging might extend? with the NHS and the education sector on the likely Should British universities receive credits, say of £1,000 impact of this charge? Have the Treasury and the a year in perpetuity, for attracting British scholars Department of Health taken into account the impact with American PhDs back to this country? My son of this charge on the NHS budget once it is applied, or has just taken up a post at a UK university, having on BIS and the DfE, given the implications for the benefitted from American funding for his entire graduate education sector? Will the Government allow the public education and two post-doctoral fellowships. Should sector time to manage the transition or are they going that benefit to the UK as he returns generate a financial to impose it, just like that? credit for the British university that has hired him, or Overall, the Government are relying on the market does the Home Office assume that the traffic in academic to provide the 3 million additional apprenticeships excellence is all one way—foreigners into Britain? If they are promising, with the penalty of the apprenticeship we are so concerned about the nationality of those levies to spur it on. The massive skills drive that the employed in the higher education and medical sectors, Prime Minister promised is to be left to the market; it should the Government also impose fines on UK-trained neither starts nor finishes with the Government, in doctors who then opt to leave Britain to practise spite of what the Prime Minister says. elsewhere? Would the British Government be happy if a future Republican Administration in the United The Explanatory Notes to the Bill suggest that States were to impose charges on American institutions the Prime Minister’s creation of 3 million additional that sought to recruit from the UK? apprenticeships will depend almost entirely on this charge. It says: I see no evidence that this has yet been thought “The primary purpose of this clause is to increase funding through. Some free market economists, no doubt from available for apprenticeships in the UK and address the current some right-wing think tank, appear to have convinced skills gap in the UK workforce”. the Home Office that the price mechanism will sort GC 173 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 174 everything out, without the need for more active sector organisations and say what responses were received? government intervention. That is as daft an idea as Clearly, their line is over the additional costs it is likely imposing central London economic rents on core to cause the service in question. Indeed, universities government buildings in Whitehall, to be then taken will say that it is causing additional costs which might off existing departmental budgets—but then the lead to them not necessarily being able to recruit the Government have just said that they are going to do best people, and obviously part of the role of a university that as well. What is even more striking is that the is to train people and increase their skills through Government do not propose to apply the price mechanism higher education. It would seem a bit distorted if the to tier 1 investor visas, in spite of recommendations purpose of the levy was to enable money to be provided from the Migration Advisory Committee, where super-rich for apprenticeships but, in so doing, it managed to foreigners would no doubt bid happily against each weaken the ability of universities to provide the best other for the privileges offered. We will come to that in people to provide the education which in itself is a later amendment. raising the skills of people who will be needed in the We therefore offer in this group a number of labour market in the future. amendments which protect the public sector, require consultation with those affected by the charge, and Lord Bates: My Lords, Clause 55 provides a power require, as the MAC report suggested, the earliest to raise the charge, but details about the rate and possible review. We particularly emphasise that it would scope of the immigration skills charge will be set out be idiotic to impose the charge on teachers in shortage in regulations to be laid before the introduction of the subjects in the UK, given the Government expect that charge. At that point there will be an opportunity for domestic demand for education and training in shortage an informed debate on the details within the regulations. sectors will have to rise, and when funding for further There are likely to be legal implications of introducing education is already being cut savagely. Two weeks exemptions which will require careful consideration. ago, I met three secondary head teachers who told me that maths and computer technology teachers are so The Migration Advisory Committee published its hard to recruit that they are looking to Australia to review of tier 2 migration on 19 January, and the find them, without yet realising, of course, that that Government need time fully to consider the evidence would bring an extra charge on their budgets of £1,000 about the likely impact of different rates on different per maths teacher for the foreseeable future. types of organisation. As well as the Migration Advisory This clause attracted almost no attention in the Committee’s findings and recommendations, we wish Commons. In any event, the Government had not to consider other evidence from stakeholders and any provided the information on which to assess the proposal. legal implications before recommending the rate at That makes it even more appropriate to test the opinion which the immigration skills charge could be set and of the House on Report, unless the Government can whether any exemptions should be applied. come up with their own substantive amendments and The Government believe in consulting those affected a good deal more explanation of what this means in by the proposed changes. The independent Migration practice. I beg to move. Advisory Committee carried out detailed stakeholder consultation as part of its review of tier 2 migration. 6.45 pm In addition, this Government have welcomed discussions Lord Green of Deddington: My Lords, in relation to with, and received evidence from, a large number of skills, I draw the Committee’s attention to the report businesses and representative organisations. The process by the noble Baroness, Lady Wolf, on training in the will continue and will, of course, take into account the private sector. Her report found that there had been a representations that have been made today by the substantial fall in what she described as “serious” noble Lord, Lord Wallace, and those received from training—that is off-site training—since 2008. It is academic institutions both by me directly and by other clearly necessary that action should be taken and colleagues. encouragement should be provided by the Government As for consulting on the changes, since the to tackle that. That said, I do not think I have any announcement in May, we have been consulting employers comment on this. I listened with interest to the introduction and business leaders across the private and public by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace. sectors to get their views on the immigration skills charge. This will continue. In addition, the Migration Lord Rosser: The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, has Advisory Committee conducted a review of tier 2 with made some very interesting points on this issue. I wait the remit to advise government on restricting tier 2 to with interest to see what the Minister has to say in genuine skills shortages and highly specialised experts. response. I would be grateful if he would respond on As part of this review, the MAC considered evidence the point that the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, raised from employers on the immigration skills charge. about consultation on the implications for the public As to the impact on healthcare, which the noble sector. Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Wallace, asked about, He mentioned the health service and universities. It no decision has yet been made. The details of the will obviously be no secret that representations have charge will be set out in regulations, which will be been received from universities and health service subject to the affirmative procedure. Therefore, there organisations about the implications of this proposal. will be an opportunity for a full debate at that point. Indeed, I understand that some universities have taken The Government have not said that the immigration it up directly with government. Will the Minister set skills charge will fund the 3 million apprenticeships; out the extent to which the consultation covered public rather, they have said that the immigration skills charge GC 175 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 176

[LORD BATES] of what we need to have—but that should not replace will contribute towards skills funding. The level of the the circulation of highly skilled and intelligent people charge has not yet been set. The Government are also which is a vital part of our research network in medicine, proposing an apprenticeship levy, not linked to migration, STEM subjects and elsewhere. If we are beginning to which will go towards apprenticeship funding. The block that, which this suggests it will do, we will Migration Advisory Committee recommended a figure damage our standing in the global academic and of £1,000 per year, which is large enough to raise a intellectual world. That is what universities are most reasonable amount of revenue and have an impact on concerned about at present. We absolutely need some employer behaviour. assurances on that. Last week, I was talking to a That is at the core of what this is about. As the vice-chancellor in Wales who was not aware of the Prime Minister said at the outset, it has been far too implications of this proposal. As the Minister will easy for some businesses to bring in workers from know, the academic lobby in the Lords is not entirely overseas rather than take the long-term decision to without a degree of influence. I will do my best to train the resident workforce in the UK. We need to do make sure that it is aware of it by the time we get more to change that, and that is the rationale that is to Report. driving this. We are proposing that a charge be enabled There are some large issues here about the private through this legislation, and we are continuing to and public sectors, including the question of how we consult because we are not unmoved by the noble persuade the private sector to invest more in training. Lord’s argument that the level at which this is set and This is a Government who need a rather more active those to whom it is applied will have significant and concerned labour market policy. Someone said to implications. Therefore, we need to get that right. me last week that further education funding is about The noble Lord slightly chastised us by saying to fall off a cliff. If the Government are looking to that we used to have a policy of attracting the brightest further education colleges to help to train apprentices, and the best. Of course, there is only one thing this proposal is not a good thing to do as part of a better than that, and that is to actually grow the whole-government approach. brightest and the best here. That is what this policy is This proposal suggests that some young man aged designed to do. More details will follow and the House 23 in either Policy Exchange or the Institute of Economic will have an opportunity to scrutinise those when they Affairs, with a first from some university or other, has are presented. written it at speed and the Government have swallowed it. There have been previous occasions in other Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, before my noble Governments when those sorts of things have happened. friend responds on our amendments, I wonder whether This clearly has not been thought through. If the the Minister can advise the Committee how noble Government can publish some more detail on what Lords should deal with this when further government they have in mind by Report, we might be able to make thinking becomes clear. As he well knows, we can some progress. If they do not know by Report what scrutinise to our heart’s content but we cannot actually the details of the policy will be, the House will find it do anything about what is in regulations. very difficult to accept the proposals in the way the I thought that the Minister said at the beginning of Government have put them before it. his response that there had not been a decision and that this was permissive of regulations, but at the end The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): he confirmed that this is what is in the Government’s I assume that the noble Lord would like to withdraw mind, which is obviously common sense. However, by his amendment? bringing forward such a significant new policy proposal as this, having given the Commons five minutes to Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Just temporarily. I beg debate it, as my noble friend said, I do not know how leave to withdraw the amendment. we can really deal with this just through regulations. Amendment 242L withdrawn.

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: That is precisely what I Amendments 242M to 242R not moved. was about to say. At present, the House is extremely nervous about allowing the Government to legislate Clause 55 agreed. by regulation for very obvious reasons based on what has recently happened. Having listened to the Minister, the words “pig” and “poke” come very much to mind. Amendment 242S We are being asked to accept something on which the Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire Government have not quite made up their mind about 242S: After Clause 55, insert the following new Clause— how it will work. They have not yet managed to “Tier 1 (Investor) visa consult, but if we pass this they will produce some (1) The Secretary of State must make rules which shall come regulations when they work out what they want to do. into force no later than 1 January 2017— If we are no clearer than that when we get to Report, it (a) to close the Tier 1 (Investor) route; will be very difficult to persuade any of the major groups in the House, apart from the Conservatives, to (b) to close applications to extend leave under Tier 1 (Investor) to applicants in the United Kingdom before accept something so unclear. 1 January 2017. The noble Lord, Lord Green, and I agree strongly (2) Nothing in this section shall affect leave to enter or remain on one thing in the migration debate—that better of the holder of a Tier 1 (Investor) visa granted before that date in training and education in Britain are absolutely part accordance with that leave.” GC 177 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 178

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, special that Transparency International is a highly respected arrangements for foreigners from outside the EU, the body, financially supported by, among others, several EEA and Switzerland who were willing to invest—actually, European Governments. It notes that, only to loan by investing in government bonds— “this visa scheme, as it currently operates”— a minimum of £1 million were introduced by the that is, after the very modest adjustments made in Conservative Government in 1994. The introduction response to the MAC report the previous year— of a tiered categorisation for visas in 2008 placed them in tier 1. “presents a major money laundering risk for the proceeds of corruption entering the UK”. The Migration Advisory Committee issued an extremely critical report in 2014. The chairman’s foreword Checks on the sources of the wealth invested in UK is strongly written. It says that, gilts are perfunctory. Until April 2015, applicants were “the main beneficiaries are the migrants”, not required to open a UK bank account until after although, they had been granted a visa, so the Home Office operated what has been described as a blind faith “the law firms, accountants and consultancies that help organise the affairs of such investors”, system of believing the declaration given by the applicant. Post-visa checks are delegated to the private banks argue that their arrival is “self-evidently beneficial” to with which applicants open an account. No investigations the UK—that is, these advisers to the very rich act as a have been led by UK law enforcement authorities lobby to bring more very rich in—“But”, the chairman against money laundering within the UK related to continued, acts of corruption in Russia or China, so the Home “we do not need such investment to fund the deficit”, Office has preferred not to ask how clean the money and, if we were hoping that they might become coming in has been. The report concludes that, entrepreneurs in the UK, “there are significant opportunities for the corrupt to launder “we already have an entrepreneur route”. money through the UK with a significant degree of impunity and The foreword goes on that, poor quality of reporting … to law enforcement”. “it would be injudicious for the UK to enter into a ‘race to the The Home Office accepted some of the MAC’s bottom’, matching special offers recently introduced by, for example, Malta, Portugal, and Antigua”— recommendations—mainly that the minimum investment should be raised from its 1994 level of £1 million to and, I might add, St Kitts and Nevis. £2 million now. Other recommendations, including 7pm that there should be a fixed and limited number of such visas—the MAC suggested 100—with sealed bids In 2014, the last year for which I have figures, 1,173 to ensure that the Government gained the market main applicants entered by this route, together with a value and that each applicant should be required to further 1,827 dependants. That is a total of 3,000—quite donate £500,000 to a UK good causes fund to demonstrate enough to attract the critical attention of Migration their contribution to British society, seem to have been Watch. By comparison, only 91 succeeded in entering ignored. The noble Lord, Lord Bates, promised, in a under the exceptional talent category, together with Written Statement in October 2014, that: 29 dependants, and 127, with 200 or so dependants, under the graduate entrepreneur category. So our system “The Government will also consult further on what sort of appears to favour the super-rich over the talented and investment the route should encourage in order to deliver real economic benefits, and other improvements to the route. A the enterprising. consultation document will be published in due course”.—[Official It is a remarkably privileged route. Those who put Report, 16/10/14; col. WS 49.] in £5 million or £10 million get accelerated passage to I have been unable to locate the promised document permanent resident status within three years and two and look forward to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, years respectively. In order to qualify for permanent informing us of where we can find it. resident status, they have to live in the country for only 185 days a year beforehand, so they can leave their It is characteristic of the Government’s friendlier mansions in London empty for half the year. They are attitude to the super-rich than to the rest of us that it promised a decision on their visa application within has concluded that the price mechanism—the immigrant three weeks, unlike the 12 weeks or more of waiting skills charge—is right for tier 2, but is not right for tier required for ordinary applicants. I understand that it 1, though competitive bidding for a limited number of is possible to move from student visa status to tier 1 places would seem an ideal way to test the market investor status without being required to leave the value of such visas. That suggests that the Government UK, again unlike ordinary poorer students. At least, are treating the rich differently from the rest of us. that is what it says in a prospectus from one of the law I am sure they would not like to give that impression. firms which advises such rich investors, recommending There are wider considerations about the impact of that they might like at that point to transfer a couple this scheme on British society and values. The MAC of million pounds to each of their children in order to report notes that, help them make the transition. “the distribution of income matters”, Sixty per cent of the successful applicants in this and that this drives greater inequality and worsens the category between 2008 and 2014 came from two countries: pressures at the top of London’s housing market. Russia and China. A steady flow of wealthy Russians Transparency International suggests that, has been overtaken by a rising number of Chinese. Here, I turn to the Transparency International report “golden visas damage public trust in the institution of citizenship”. of October 2015, Gold Rush: Investment Visas and However, I am not sure how much importance the Corrupt Capital Flows into the UK. I should mention Conservatives attach to the idea of an inclusive community GC 179 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 180

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] are telling the world that they are very alarmed about of British citizens with equal rights. That is another the export of corruptly gained capital from their countries. idea which I hope the Conservatives would not like to The Government inveigh against corruption across get around. the world. They propose themselves as international I hope the Minister and the Home Office have leaders in campaigning against corruption, yet it would taken note of the Canadian Government’s cancellation appear that the right of potentially corrupt individuals— of their comparable scheme in 2014 in response to and there is good reason to think they are actually growing fears about the rising number of Chinese corrupt—to come, take up residence and remain in applicants and their suspected use of the scheme to this country can be bought remarkably cheaply. use Canada as a safe haven for their money rather I have some questions for the Minister. Will he than as a place to live. Has the Home Office considered advise the Committee what precautions the Government whether it should follow the Chinese example, or is it are taking to ensure that those who benefit from these more concerned to compete with Malta and Antigua? tier 1 visas are not corrupt? What investigations are There is something essentially grubby about selling the undertaken? What requirements are there on people to right to residence in Britain to wealthy foreigners, declare their wealth and the sources of their wealth? without questions asked. The right-wing media, and What due diligence is pursued to ensure that those much of the Conservative Party, go on at length about answers are honest, accurate and comprehensive? Do the need to defend British sovereignty against any the Government maintain a list of those who are encroachment from Brussels or the Strasbourg European suspected by police authorities or intelligence sources Court of Human Rights, yet here are the Government internationally to be criminals or money launderers? promoting the sale of visas to dodgy foreigners from Do they ensure that people who are on that list do not dodgy countries. It is demeaning and indefensible. obtain visas? What proportion of applications for tier I note that the Prime Minister is planning to hold 1 visas is turned down? Do the Government intend to an anti-corruption summit in May 2016 and has already undertake any retrospective scrutiny of individuals invited representatives of a large number of reputable who have already been granted visas under this scheme? states. I am not sure about Russian and Chinese The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, referred to things participation. No doubt the non-governmental community that have been said by the chairman of the Migration that monitors corruption will wish to challenge the Advisory Committee, Professor Sir David Metcalf. apparent gap between Mr Cameron’s rhetoric and his Those of us who know him know that he is a man of Government’s practice. The tier 1 investor category very great experience and wisdom. He told the Home looks like a prime candidate for abolition, unless the Affairs Select Committee that the tier 1 scheme is, Home Office can persuade us that it intends to tighten “absolutely not fit for purpose”. checks and reduce numbers. Indeed, that could be said to be an understatement. It I look forward to the Minister’s response. Unless is worse than unfit for purpose if it pollutes our we receive satisfactory responses, and much more national life. The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, alluded information, I will hope to persuade the House to to the effects on the housing market. That alone must support the abolition of this category on Report as a be a matter of very great concern. There is a cascade constructive way of reducing immigration and limiting of misery that derives from the ability of wealthy the risks of importing crime and money laundering individuals to force up prices of houses and apartments from overseas. I beg to move. in London, and if they are doing that through the use of ill-gotten money, it is even more intolerable, as I am Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab): My Lords, I am sure the Committee would agree. If this is a scheme to very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, for enable people who may be participants in organised proposing this new clause. I am a member of the crime or actively investing in it, it runs absolutely All-Party Parliamentary Group on Anti-Corruption. counter to what should be the main strategic purpose Like the noble Lord, I have had the opportunity to of the Home Office in any case. examine the statistics in the report from Transparency Sir David said that the scheme brings “absolutely International UK which he mentioned. I find them no gain” to the United Kingdom. It may be that the extremely concerning. Government disagree, in which case the Minister will It would appear that, under the tier 1 investment tell us, but it seems a reasonable proposition. Therefore, visa scheme, we are operating a charter for money I hope that the Minister will tell us that he will accept laundering. An individual is required to invest only the new clause that has been tabled, but if he intends £2 million in government bonds, or the share or loan to keep tier 1 visas, what is he going to do to ensure capital of a business trading in the United Kingdom, that there is not the abuse that Transparency International and after five years they can have indefinite right to and many others believe there is in consequence of the remain. As the noble Lord mentioned, there is a tariff availability of this scheme? on this. If they are happy to invest £5 million over three years or £10 million over two years they get a Lord Green of Deddington: My Lords, I speak in faster track to the right to remain. It is a pretty cheap firm support of this amendment. We have had two ticket for them to come in. Large amounts of money very powerful contributions, and I will not repeat have been brought in— £3.15 billion since 2006—by what was said. Listening to them and looking at the this route. I am advised that golden investor visa study, this is bizarre. It is really quite extraordinary. approvals have risen from 153 in 2009 to 1,173 in 2014. You can see why it is attractive. There is no need for a The largest number are Chinese, followed by the Russians. job offer or a sponsor, and the visa applies not just to At the same time, the Chinese and Russian authorities the main applicant but to all his immediate family GC 181 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 182 members. There are no language requirements and, November 2014. These included taking additional since 2011, the residence requirement has been only powers to refuse applications where the funds have been 180 days. Talk about an offer. What do we get? We get obtained unlawfully, where the applicant is not in nothing because these sums of a few million, which control of the funds and where the granting of the are evidently nothing to these applicants, are given application would not be conducive to the public back to them after a few years. They can put them in good. The Government also raised the investment gilts and get their money back. It is absolutely bizarre. threshold from £1 million to £2 million and removed a I suppose it is intended to give the impression that provision which allowed investments to be funded Britain is open to investors, and investors are a good through a loan. Since April last year the immigration thing, but we really should not give the impression rules have also required that prospective tier 1 applicants that we are really quite as naive and foolish as that. must open a UK bank account before their application The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, has already quoted for a visa is allowed. This ensures they have undergone some very effective remarks from Sir David Metcalf, financial due diligence checks before they are granted as has the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, so I shall not an investor visa. repeat them, but coming from someone of his stature, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, they should certainly be taken into consideration. for raising his concerns that visas of this nature have It is hardly too cynical to describe this as a scheme no place in a sovereign nation and that this may be the for selling British passports to the very wealthy. There preserve of tax havens. It would be correct to observe is absolutely no justification for that and this scheme that some so-called tax havens operate citizenship-by- needs to be scrubbed, frankly. It may be that it could investment schemes, whereby wealthy individuals may be replaced by a more effective scheme that actually be able to effectively purchase a second nationality in brought serious investment and jobs to this country. return for a sizeable donation, often paid directly to That is for another day but this has got hopelessly out of the host Government. I make it absolutely clear that hand. It is a useless system and should be abolished. the UK’s tier 1 investor visa is not such a scheme. The UK’s investor visa offers no guarantee of an extension, 7.15 pm beyond the initial two or three-year term, let alone Lord Rosser: Perhaps I will be a little more guarded settlement, or citizenship. At each of these points, in what I say on this one. Some very strong and applicants must not only demonstrate that they have forceful speeches have been made on the basis that it continued to hold the appropriate qualifying investments, appears that certain individuals who may have a lot of but are also subjected to further robust checks. money are being treated rather differently from those Let me deal with some of the points that have been who do not. I will leave it in the context that I will wait raised and provide a bit of additional information. to see whether the Minister will accept this amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked about precautions. I will wait and see what the Government’s justification I think my answer addressed some of the points he is for the tier 1 visa and the conditions under which it raised about due diligence, which is carried out in the is given before I come to any conclusions for the process of securing the bank account. Also, the United Opposition. I have listened with great interest to what Kingdom maintains some of the toughest anti-money has been said. There seem to have been some pretty laundering laws in the world and is respected as such. powerful points made, and I also want to hear what The general grounds for refusal in immigration rules the Minister has to say in reply. enable the Government to refuse investor visas where Lord Bates: My speech begins with the line that I the applicant’s presence in the UK is not conducive to have listened carefully to the arguments. I think the the public good, which means that we carry out checks arguments have been well made. I will try to set out for on their criminal background. Under a pilot scheme, the benefit of the Committee the rationale behind investor visa applicants are required to provide criminal this and then answer some of the specific questions. I record checks from their country of residence as a underline the Government’s commitment to ensuring condition of applying for the visa. that the United Kingdom remains an attractive destination As a result of all the changes that we have introduced, for legitimate international investors. The tier 1 investor and which significantly toughen up the approach—this visa route allows migrants to make a significant financial may speak to the point that the noble Lord, Lord contribution to the UK, either through the purchase Wallace, raised—in the last quarter for which figures of share or loan capital in UK businesses, or through are available we granted only 46 such visas compared UK government bonds. The route does not recognise to 274 in the corresponding period in the previous the purchase of property as a qualifying investment. year. That is a reduction of 83%. Before the noble The proposed amendment would not only result in Lord, Lord Green, gets to his feet, let me say that the immediate loss of millions of pounds of capital some of that may have something to do with the inflow, but deliver a powerful global message that general economic situation in some of the key countries foreign investors are no longer welcome in the UK. from which people would normally apply for these This is a message the Government have no desire to visas. However, it might also reflect that the toughening send. The Government are clear in their commitment of the rules is having the desired effect. to ensuring that the investor route delivers benefits to UK taxpayers and it remains an important component Lord Green of Deddington: Exactly so. The collapse of the UK’s visa offer for high value migrants. in the numbers is very good news. It illustrates just Acting on an independent Migration Advisory how bad the scheme has been. Is it not the case that if Committee review of the tier 1 investor category, the you invest £10 million, you get indefinite leave to Government introduced a package of reforms in remain after two years? GC 183 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 184

Lord Bates: That is the case. which the Prime Minister will claim that Britain is leading in the security of its provisions to prevent money Lord Green of Deddington: After that, it is only a laundering? matter of time before you get your passport. This is, in effect, selling passports, as the Minister has just Lord Bates: Her Majesty’s Government’s position is acknowledged, and, sometimes, in cases where it may always credible and defensible. Most people would not have been entirely advantageous. But they can also recognise that this is a sensitive area, but the UK has take their money out of gilts. Are we really persuading taken a very strong stand in the international community people to invest in a serious and useful manner in on tackling money laundering. It does that consistently Britain by a scheme like this? I rather doubt it. through raising matters at the G20, which is a prime vehicle for operating on this, and through the OECD, Lord Bates: The noble Lord, Lord Green, makes which has its regulations as well. We will continue to some very good points. I was looking behind me for do that. I would have thought that everybody would some inspiration that would enable me to provide a welcome the fact that the Prime Minister is taking this brilliant argument as to why that is not the case. In leadership and wanting to see how further things fact, there were just nods, as if to say, “Yes, that is could be done. It is absolutely the role of this House to about right”. This is something that we need to keep apply pressure to the Executive to make sure that they under very careful review, and we do. When we get are living up to the arguments and principles that they advice from the Migration Advisory Committee that seek that others observe. there are problems with the scheme, we have, in the past, shown that we will take action. On some of the points that were raised about Baroness Hamwee: Can I add a tiny bit of extra property, there is no suggestion from anyone that pressure on the Executive between now and Report people would not be able to own property in any part and ask whether the Government have information of the world. The housing issues that were raised are about the effect on housing numbers and housing not linked to the scheme. Under the coalition Government, prices as a result of this policy? That might be quite we significantly raised the stamp duty to about 12% on difficult as a lot of it will be anecdotal, but it is a jolly larger homes at that level. In a similar vein, the Chancellor big anecdote along the south bank of the Thames, announced in the Autumn Statement that there would with units that are sold off plan and will probably be a further levy of an additional 3% for people remain empty. There is a great deal of concern about coming in and purchasing a home in the UK as a the impact of the role played by those taking advantage second home. That was on top of the increase to 12%. of this route on the housing shortage and on housing Significant things are happening, but it is about how prices. we maintain an offering on the international stage which ensures that we can attract people with exceptional Lord Bates: Housing is outside the scope. I know talent, people who want to come and invest here, and that the effect on the housing market will be an people who want to study, visit or work here so that interesting point of research, but we are focusing on they can contribute to the public good of this country. the visa that is primarily targeted into government We need to keep that under review. That is something gilts, or loan stock or equity in UK-registered corporations. that the Government continue to do. I am sure that we Those are the bounds of it. I mentioned that we have will want to take note of the comments made in the taken action before. This will probably excite even course of the debate ahead of Report. I am sure we more attention, but due to EU law on free movement will revisit it then, but until that point I hope that the of capital, the Government believe that there would be noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment, legal difficulties in treating residents and non-residents temporarily. differently by, for example, restricting purchases or charging a higher rate of tax. Lord Rosser: I am not quite clear on what the I have said what I have said. I am quite genuine. A Minister said in the last part of his comments. Is he point has been made. I should just temper the Committee’s saying that he intends to reflect on what has been said expectations because I spent the first two pages of and write to us prior to Report? What does he envisage my speech defending the scheme, saying that it was will happen between now and Report? important to send out the message and that these investors were coming. I do not accept the generic Lord Bates: Forgive me for trying to be reasonable. term of “dodgy” with “investor”. A lot of investment I was simply saying that this was an interesting argument into this country has been of immense value in providing that I listened to and followed. A number of points jobs and wealth to the people who are here. However, I were raised from all parts of the Committee, expressing will go away and reflect on the points that have been concerns about how this system operates. I want to go raised about the specific working of the scheme and back and talk with colleagues about the system and come back on Report where those arguments can be how it operates, and then come back with answers to tested. the points raised or suggestions as to how things could be improved. 7.30 pm Lord Howarth of Newport: If this does come back, Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I have some will the Minister share with the House how the sympathy with the noble Lord in having to reply to Government intend to make their position credible this debate. I am fascinated by the caution expressed and defensible before this international conference, at by the Labour Front Bench and I hope that the GC 185 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 186

Labour Party will not find itself in a position of Clause 56: Power to make passport fees regulations wanting to defend the super-rich against the criticism from the Liberal Democrats—of course, I speak for Amendment 242T the Liberal Democrat Front Bench on this. Perhaps the Labour Party will reflect a little further on that Moved by Baroness Hamwee between now and Report. I hope that I will not miss 242T: Clause 56, page 50, line 3, at end insert “but only when a Report. I have to admit to everyone here that I am fast-track exercise of function is provided and if the excess is going on holiday for the first two weeks of March. I applied to reducing the cost of the normal exercise of the function.” am going to Antigua, but I shall not ask whether I can buy citizenship while I am there. Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I hope this will be quick. This is a probing amendment. Clause 56 is about fees, not really about immigration, although Lord Bates: I will put a special plea to the business some of it might be. The issue I would like to probe is managers that we schedule Report then. about passports, not immigration. Clause 56 (4) provides that there may be fees which exceed the cost of “exercising Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I hope that the the function” in question. I would be grateful if the Minister will be able to write to all noble Lords on the Minister would explain to the Committee what is Committee between now and then with a number of proposed and what lies behind this. Is it about a answers. Have the Government examined the Canadian premium service, rather along the lines of the premium experience and looked at why the Canadians abolished visa service? From time to time, over the years, I have their category? Have we considered the same? Can heard complaints about that among the business the Government explain why they accepted all of the community—probably not voiced directly to the Migration Advisory Committee’s proposals on tier 2 Government. They are having to pay premium fees for for the immigration skills charge, but did not accept what should be the basic standard service. Is there two rather important proposals from the Migration anything that the Minister can say about customer Advisory Committee that there should be a limited satisfaction on this? It is worth spending a minute or number of sealed bids and a substantial donation to a two getting on record the Government’s explanation good causes fund as part of the conditions? of payment over and above the cost of providing I admit that the origins of my interest in this are proof of citizenship. I beg to move. from when I went as a representative of Her Majesty’s Government to the capital of a former Soviet state Lord Bates: My Lords, the passport fee provisions and found myself talking with someone who was in the Bill require that all Home Office passport-related clearly very much part of the oligarchy running the costs are fully reflected in the fee structure. That country. He told me that he had just been appointed means we can recover the costs associated with processing ambassador to Britain and this was rather difficult for UK passengers at the border through the passport fee. him because at that moment he held British citizenship This is reflected in our spending review settlement. as well as citizenship of his state. He was going to have They also allow for a surplus on optional, premium to come back to his own country for some weeks while and fast-track services, which we intend to use to help this was sorted out, but he had recently bought his son protect the quality of, and fee for, the standard passport the house next door to his in Chelsea and as his son service and, over time, reduce the standard fee. We do was rather young he did not want to leave him on his not intend to generate surpluses to fund other unrelated own for so long, so he was not quite sure how he was Home Office activity. Premium or fast-track service going to manage it. I began to think it was a little odd. delivery is currently, and will continue to be, based on I decided in my two days in that country that it was insight into and awareness of customer expectations not a particularly democratic one and the distribution and needs. In future, we intend to set fees for premium of wealth was clearly in the hands of a very small services at a level which ensures that they are economically number of people, although one or two of them viable to the customer and ensure that Her Majesty’s offered me some extremely generous gifts, which I, of Passport Office can recover the cost of the services course, had to pass on. It opened my eyes to something delivered, while protecting and maintaining the standard not desirable, not in the interests of this country and passport service. not contributing to our economy. The services and fees will be set out in regulations. I would have been much happier if the figures I had As set out in the existing Clause 56(1), fees are set to discovered on tier 1 had shown that the exceptional meet the cost of such functions associated with the talent category had 2,000 to 3,000 people in it, the issuing of a passport or other travel documents. They entrepreneur category 3,000 to 4,000 people and the will require approval from Her Majesty’s Treasury and investor category 50. That is the sort of thing we Parliament. Therefore, the regulations do not provide should have if we believe the Prime Minister in his for fees to be set at a level deliberately aimed to commitment to attract the brightest and the best. We achieve an excess or surplus on the overall service. The have got it the wrong way round at present. I wish the regulations would provide for the fee for specific premium coalition Government had been able to push a little elements of the service to be charged above cost, but further in that respect, but we will make up for it. We any income derived from that would be required to be will do our best to push the Minister and see how far used to maintain or reduce the cost of other services we can go. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw provided within the overall passport function. the amendment. Although I recognise that this is a probing amendment, the proposal would not work, first, because the use of Amendment 242S withdrawn. fast-track services is a matter of individual customer GC 187 Immigration Bill[LORDS] Immigration Bill GC 188

[LORD BATES] explore the implication of some of these additional choice and therefore subject to fluctuating demand. charges and discuss what the Government really intend Unplanned surpluses, or even deficits, may therefore with them. We are in favour of settled relationships, materialise in-year. Secondly, and more importantly, both civil partnerships and marriage. The Government the level of fees for individual services should be have said many times before that they want to promote determined by the overall cost of delivering the whole them. That is the purpose of this probing amendment. passport function, not the other way around. Our I beg to move. ambition is for the standard passport fee to remain at the current level initially and to fall over time as the Lord Bates: Currently, both the local registration cost of passport functions is reduced. This will be service and the Registrar General provide a range of achieved through transforming delivery through digital services in connection with the registration of births, and online services, complemented by the customer’s marriages, civil partnerships and deaths for which, in ability to choose the access services with an appropriate some instances, there is currently no power to charge a level of fees to reflect the higher level and speed of fee. The existing fee-raising powers are restrictive and service provided. I hope that, with that explanation, out-dated and do not cover the full range of services the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw the provided. For example, the Registrar General is involved amendment. with the verification of around 5,000 divorce documents each year which have been obtained overseas and also Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, having listened to provides blank certificate stock to over 30,000 buildings that explanation, it seems that the amendment pretty for use in certificate issue. These are just two examples accurately reflects what the Minister has been saying, of services provided by the Registrar General for but I will not spend time on that now. Since we are which there is currently no provision to charge a fee to talking about passports, does the Minister have in his the end-user and where the expense must be recovered brief the target time for the issue of a passport on from central funds. application at the moment—which I presume is the Schedule 12 will modernise the process of setting standard service—against which a premium service fees for registration services and enable fees to be set will be designed? for those services which have previously been provided without charge. The provisions also move existing Lord Bates: It is five days for domestic and 14 days fee-charging powers into regulations, providing more for overseas. There are, of course, some elements of flexibility and making it easier to amend them in the variance, but those are the standard times. future. This will allow the local registration service and the Registrar General to recover more of the costs Baroness Hamwee: That is helpful, because to issue of providing registration services. It will reduce the a passport in less than five days strikes me as going reliance on central funding and ensure that, where some, though perhaps it may not be so difficult if it is possible, any costs are borne by the users of the a renewal. I shall be interested to see what the premium services on a cost-recovery basis in line with Treasury service purports to offer. I might be about to hear. guidelines. Lord Bates: The premium service is four hours: well I hope that helps the noble Lord and he will feel worth the money. able to withdraw his amendment.

Baroness Hamwee: I might hand it over to the noble Lord Wallace of Saltaire: That is extremely helpful. Lord, Lord Green, to interrogate. What checks are I am happy to withdraw the amendment. undertaken for that? I beg leave to withdraw. Amendment 242U withdrawn. Amendment 242T withdrawn. Amendment 242V not moved. Clause 56 agreed. Schedule 12 agreed. Clauses 57 to 59 agreed. Clauses 60 and 61 agreed. Schedule 12: Civil registration fees Clause 62: Regulations Amendment 242U Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire Amendments 243 and 244 242U: Schedule 12, page 155, line 5, leave out paragraphs 1 Moved by Lord Bates and 2 243: Clause 62, page 52, line 39, leave out “any provision of section 2, 4, 5, 6 or 7” and insert “primary legislation” Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, at this stage I 244: Clause 62, page 52, line 40, at end insert— shall be extremely brief although I am very happy to “( ) regulations under section (Functions in relation to talk further, out of Committee. The purpose of the labour market) which amend or repeal primary legislation, amendment is to probe. A Government who are deeply ( ) regulations under section (Power to request LME and publicly committed to the promotion of marriage undertaking), (Measures in LME undertakings) or appear to be imposing charges on it. Before I run off (Measures in LME orders),” to the Daily Mail to tell it that the Conservatives are making marriage more difficult, perhaps we could Amendments 243 and 244 agreed. GC 189 Immigration Bill[9 FEBRUARY 2016] Immigration Bill GC 190

Amendment 245 not moved. Clause 64, as amended, agreed.

Clause 62, as amended, agreed. Clause 65 agreed.

Clause 63: Commencement In the Title

Amendment 245A not moved. Amendment 246 Moved by Lord Bates Clause 63 agreed. line 3, leave out “Director of Labour Market Enforcement” and insert “enforcement of certain legislation relating to the Clause 64: Extent labour market” Amendment 246 agreed. Amendment 245B Title, as amended, agreed. Moved by Lord Bates 245B: Clause 64, page 54, line 1, leave out subsection (3) Bill reported with amendments.

Amendment 245B agreed. Committee adjourned at 7.46 pm.

Volume 768 Tuesday No. 108 9 February 2016

CONTENTS

Tuesday 9 February 2016 Retirement of a Member: Lord Dixon ...... 2111 Questions Oil and Gas: UK Continental Shelf...... 2111 Housing Estates...... 2114 Walking and Cycling...... 2116 Daesh: Genocide...... 2119 Transport for London Bill [HL] Motion to Consider ...... 2121 Welfare Reform and Work Bill Third Reading ...... 2121 Housing and Planning Bill Committee (1st Day) ...... 2132 Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Funding Question for Short Debate...... 2192 Housing and Planning Bill Committee (1st Day) (Continued)...... 2207 Grand Committee Immigration Bill Committee (5th Day)...... GC 125