Report on a New Horizons Research Project.

STUDIES ON PRESUMED ANCIENT "ZODIACS" IN BRITAIN.

by

Jensine Andresen and Marck Bonchek, of Princeton University.

Copyright: Jensine A. Andresen and Mark Bonchek and the New Horizons Research Foundation.

November 1986. INTRODUCTORY NOTE.

This paper reports investigations carried out by Jensine A. Andresen and Mark Bonchek while in Britain, July and August 1986, in addition to their magnetic field survey of megalithic sites which they have reported separately.

As the reader may he aware, in the present century many new ideas have "become current in respect to antiquities of the European countryside. Among these ideas is the theory that communities in the immediately prehistoric period - - the Bronze and Iron Ages - - having developed a system of astronomical knowledge created earthworks of immense size to symbolize the zodiac. This theory first came into prominence through the writings of Mrs. K.E. Maltwood concerning the Glastonbury Zodiac (The Enchantments of Britain, or King Arthur's Round Table of the Stars; James Clarke and Co., Cambridge, England, U.K.), and has been taken up by others, especially Mrs. Mary Caine. In addition to their research on the earth's magnetic field at megalithic sites, the authors of this paper made some enquiries relating to presumed zodiacs, which they report here. (A.R.G.O., New Horizons).

ZODIACS.

The next segment of our research was devoted to studying the Glastonbury and Kingston zodiacs. Although other zodiacs have been purported, (notably those in Nuthampstead and Carmarthenshire), the zodiacs at Glastonbury and Kingston were clearly the most convincing in terms of their physical boundaries.

Our research into the zodiacs consisted of two stages. In the first stage, we examined the geology around Glastonbury and Kingston to determine any correlations between geological formations and zodiacal figures. (Maps of the geological composition of the Glastonbury region are shown in Appendix.) We were pleased to find a number of very clear correlations in the Glastonbury zodiac. A formation of silt and clay without limestone distinctly outlined from the surrounding clay with limestone forms the phoenix figure and the fish of Wearyall Hill. The area of the Gemini Twin near Compton Dundon consists of Keuper Marl, which is distinct from the surrounding area consisting of Alluvium. These two relationships are apparent on the geological maps to even the most casual observer.

Some less obvious but still significant relationships also exist. Like the first twin, the head of the second twin at Lugshorn is Keuper Marl, distinct from the surrounding Alluvium. The back leg of the lion is formed by a juncture between Alluvium and clay with limestone. The figure of the dog consists of Alluvium, and is surrounded primarily by Keuper Marl. The junction between the two minerals outlines the rear leg, the hind quarters, and the head of the dog. The nose of the dog is also a distinct geological formation, consisting of Mercia Mudstone as opposed to the Alluvium of the dog's body. [See Geological Map 296 (295 for dog's nose)].

An examination of the Kingston Zodiac does not reveal any of the geological correlations so apparent in the Glastonbury Zodiac. This may be due to the presence of the River Thames in the Kingston region. The geological maps for the Kingston region indicate only river brickearths or river terraces for much of the region. Clearly delinated junctures between regions of differing mineral beds do not appear on the Kingston maps in the way they do on the Glastonbury maps.

The second stage of our research consisted of a lengthy visit with Mary Caine, the author of the books The Glastonbury Zodiac and A Kingston Zodiac. Mary Caine is an elderly yet extremely energetic and witty woman. She possesses a wealth of knowledge, not only on the Zodiacs, but also on English history from the Bronze Age to the Welsh Bards and Saxon kings. She was extremely friendly and consented to a lengthy interview, the transcript of which is attached as Appendix D.

Mary Caine lives with her husband on the Kingston Zodiac, just outside London. She and her husband had planned to make a video on the Glastonbury Zodiac, but they have had to put their plan on hold due to lack of funds. She financed the publishing of her own books, vhich depleted her savings. She and her husband also discussed with us their hope that a more scholarly book might someday be published on the zodiacs, perhaps with contributions relating to the history, astronomy, psychology, geology, and possibly astrology of the terrestial patterns. She suggested that such a book might result from an inter-disciplinary meeting of experts in these fields. Again, it seems that funding is a problem. We did mention our interest in the geological implications of the Glastonbury Zodiac, but we did not discuss the subject thoroughly. INTERVIEW WITH MARY CAINE

M: Mary Caine J: Jensine Andresen Mk: Mark Bonchek

Tape 1, Side 1.

J: How did you first become interested in the Glastonbury Zodiac?

M: Well that's rather interesting, actually. I was going to Oruid meetings, thinking of becoming a Druid, and I heard it mentioned by one of the old Druids, Ross Nieholls — he's dead now. And they mentioned the Glastonbury Zodiac, and I said, "What's that?" He said, "Oh, it's a great circle, in the West of England." I said, "I thought I knew all the stone circles in the South and West." "Oh," he said, "it's not a stone circle, it's much bigger." Then he said, "Don't try, I wouldn't bother if I were you." He said people go mad researching it. And this was 25 or 30 years ago. And in those days it was so weird that people went off their heads I suppose. But, you know, things have changed a lot, actually, in 30 years in matters of this sort. It was harder to accept in those days.

So, of course, I went and bought the books -- I had to -- they were in print at the time.

J: Katherine Maltwood's?

M: Yes. And I made out a list of questions just like yours. I read books, and I was intrigued. I thought, "this is ridiculous, BUT why am I so intrigued by it?" She seemed to have a lot of evidence on her side — place names and legends and a lot of philosophy, too, which I liked immensely, because it made sense of Christianity. It just put Christianity into place, in a way that it never had to me, a parson's daughter, so I had rather given it up. But reading this Mrs. Maltwood I saw what the virgin birth was about. Well, this is the virgin earth giving birth to everybody; and all of the dogmas suddenly made sense in light of the Zodiac. I thought, "Very strange, it's weird. There must be something in it." So I wrote out all sorts of questions and objections and sent them to Mrs. Maltwood, via Watkins, her publisher at the time. Watkins is a rather esoteric bookshop. In about three months I got a letter back from her husband saying she died three months ago. I wrote back, and I realized that that was when I went to this meeting and they happened to mention it in my hearing.

J: The same day or around the same time?

M: Around the same time. I couldn't say the same day.

J: How old was she when she died?

M: Eighty-one when she died. And she died in Canada, of course, right across the globe in Vancouver. A lot of her stuff is there to study still, actually, but you know about that, don't you?

J: No, I don't, actually. H: Well, there's a place called Thatch Lodge. I've got a picture of it in my book. Her husband gave it as a museum with all of their art collection, which they had collected from all over the world, and a lot of her sculpture, and her notes. There's a room there now that has been rifled, I've been told, and her notes stolen by some ghastly man.

J: They have her notes on the Zodiac there?

M: They let him in, and he was going around boasting that he had got all her notes from a black box in the padlocked museum. He walked off with them.

J: Oh, no.

N: Well this is a rumor, and I'm not sure if it's true.

J: Do they have copies of any of the notes?

M: I don't know. He certainly never got in touch with any of the principals.

J: Probably not. How many people are in the Druid order now?

M: I don't know because I've been out of touch with them for so long. There are about thirty, I suppose, who come to the dawn festival. But there may be many more than, that who don't come to meetings any more. It broke up, rather. There was a row over the succession, and then it mixed off into two lots. And then I stopped going.

J: I read in that book — that just reminded me of a different question -- that you said it was very impressive how Mrs. Maltwood, she integrated the Druids and the Templars. The other group I didn't know, the Plantegentics?

M: The Plantagenets.

J: Who are they?

M: Well, those are the kings that came from Anjou in France. Henry II was the first Plantagenet to rule England. There were Plantagenets in Anjou before that, but they were Dukes of Anjou.

J: When was that?

M: Henry II? Died 1189.

J: And who are the Templars?

M: An order founded in 1119 as celibate soldier-monks with the object of keeping pilgrimage routes safe for pilgrims. They were given a house the site of Solomon's Temple, hence their name. I have all of the dates of the Kings in the back of my green book. I think we'd better get the green book out.

(Mrs. Caine leaves the room to get a copy of her book. On the way out, she mentions that the Templars were disbanded in 1313. Jensine comments that this is an unlucky date.)

M: What do you think of my "English history fits the Zodiac?"

J: That you make up the history to go along with what you found?

M: No. Absolutely not! I use all the main dates: Kings, battles, invasions ...

J: I didn't know what you meant. What is the theory?

M: Have you read the chapter?

J: No, I haven't read the green book only the blue one.

M: Well, my idea is that English history fits the Zodiac, you see.

J: Oh, I see.

M: I noticed it well that's another matter, you can read it yourself -- let's just get ... (Mrs. Caine reads from her book) Mathilda, daughter of Henry I. Henry II. Henry II, 1154 to 1189. Those are his dates. The first Plantagenet to reign in England. And he reigned because under Cancer, the woman's sign, the maternal sign. His mother was the daughter of William I. So he had some kind of claim, you see. And then, of course, he was married to Eleanor of Aquitane, with whom I identify myself very much. A strong feeling. Every since I saw Katherine Hepburn in The Lion in Winter. It's not a film you've ever seen?

J: It's just out at home. I haven' t seen it yet.

M: She reminds me of me.

No — it's an old film.

J: The revival just came out again.

M: But Eleanor was very interested in Arthurian legend, in fact under her encouragement and during her reign as Queen of England and before that as Duchess of Aquitane that all these Grail stories were written. So she was very much at the bottom of it. So I think that there is a bit of Eleanor in me. Actually, I have her in my family. I've got a family tree, which goes back to her. So I could easily have a few genes, and I'm doing exactly the same things as she, Arthurian legends and grail. I kept thinking I was a reincarnation, but I see now it's quite a straightforward genetic job, really.

J: You also mentioned the Welsh bards. Are these societies all secretive?

M: They belonged to the Druids. Yes, the bards, the ovates (?), and the something else.

J: And they came before the Druids?

3 M: No. Same time. They were part of the Druid order. They valued poetry because they were so, what you might call, alternative thinking. Intuitive.

This is Rachel, my daughter. (general conversation)

So the bards, really -- they're still going, you know, in the Welsh Eisteddfodds. They have all sorts of competitions for poems and songs and the harp — you know the Welsh harp?

J: Hum. M<

M: And the Irish harp. They are truly bardic tradition.

J: Are the Druids a secretive society? Must one go through rites of initiation and all that sort of thing?

M: Yes, but they don't kill you. They are not like -- you don't have *• to, say, have your throat slit, or give away anything. There is a gatehouse ceremony, which I underwent, but, I mean, it isn't anything really. Mostly they are teaching you about what is said about ^ the Druids in classical authors and so on, so that you learn an alternative history of the country, which you don't get from the textbooks. It's much more interesting, too.

J: Where do the pagan cults fit into all of this?

M: Well, I'm not very keen on them, I must say, because but at the m< same time you can't dismiss them entirely. I've always been a bit anxious that the Zodiac wasn't taken over by some of these pagan people, because they are very anti-Christian. And although I'm not a ^ very good Christian, I think the teaching of the Zodiac is so like the teaching of Christianity, with all sorts of good things that Christianity has dropped off, like reincarnation and a cosmology. You know, an idea of the universe as a vast wholistic unit of which our ^ earth and ourselves are an essential part, and a growing and developing past. The stars reflect what's happening down here -- "As Above, so Below." Ifa

J: It's more dynamic, as opposed to Christianity, which has made everything so static. ^

M: Well, it left out so much. And they had this unfortunate block about learning and reading. It made the laity backward for a long time. Present-day pagans tend to be very anti-Christian. Some of them are and 'mm some of them aren't. But I don't knov where it fits in. But it is pagan, of course, because it is much before Christianity -- pagan in that sense.

J: I was just thinking of a gentleman whom we met while we were doing one of the surveys. He was was "net at all friendly" -- let's put it \ that way. fc

M: Not at all friendly? J: Not at all friendly toward us. And he was very put off that we were doing anything with scientific instruments at a site. We tried to explain that we were interested in understanding it. And he said, "Well, I know the secret, and I wish I could tell you, but I just can't tell you." One of those sorts of things.

M: Don't take any notice. That's all gobbledy-gook. I get so fed up with people like that.

J: It was very condescending to say, "Well, we know, but we can't tell you. "

H: That's right. You have to join at the bottom.

J: Work as a janitor first, and then we'll tell you.

M: That's just ego -- ego-tripping.

J: Besides yourself and Mrs. Haltwood...

H: She discovered it.

J: So she's the first to re-discover it in recent times.

M: She discovered it. Re-discovered it I should say, yes.

J: About other references to the Zodiac -- you've told us about the pseudo-John Dee mention of it, but what about before that? You said the Welsh bards mentioned it in their poetry.

H: Oh yes. Well I wrote quite a bit about that in the book, actually. That's what the book's about, really, showing how it comes into, not only Welsh myth and Irish myth, but also Classical Greek myth. They obviously knew about it. It was also a secret of the Celtic kings, which was passed on to the Saxon kings, who are part Celtic anyway. Alfred was a Celt on his father's side.

J: Now is Alfred the same as Arthur? No, they're different.

H: Arthur's dates, if he was really historical, are about 470-540. Alfred came to the throne around 870 and died about, no ...

J: We could look it up in your book. That's what's good about writing it down.

M: (Mrs. Caine looks up the date) 871-900. I think 871 is when he started to reign, not when he was born. They give you these dates, and I'm not quite sure which they are. Well, he obviously knew about it, because of Alfred and the cakes on the dog's nose at Athelney.

J: With the sop? I think that's very good, actually.

M: Yes, quite convincing. The only question is, there are some people who have taken it as meaning, taken what she's said as meaning, that there was once a habit of throwing barley cakes into the dog's tongue, which is the River Tone. But whether she meant that or not is rather ambiguous. And I've tried to find out whether there ever was such a habit, and I couldn't find any trace of it. But that doesn't mean there wasn't. People could forget. But I certainly haven't found anybody who has said, "Oh, yes, that was done when my grandfather was a boy, " or anything like this. So she might really just have meant that barley cakes were thrown to the dog Cerberus as a custom in the mysteries in Greece.

J: You mention Greece and Classical Greece -- I was thinking, when I read your book today you said Alfred went to Athelney, and that made me think of Athens. Do you think there is some sort of . .

M: I never thought of the two together.

J: ... Greece connection.

M: That's one of your questions, is it?

J: Yes, I thought of that this morning. I just thought of it. I thought it might be an interesting ...

M: Well, the word Athelney, I think, is very interesting because the King's son, who was going to inherit, the oldest son, was always called the Atheling. And why is he called the Atheling? I think, because he was initiated into the mysteries at the dog's nose. Then, when he made his vows at Oath Hill, which is here, or Othery (Otis is Greek for ear), which is on his ear, then he would sail down the River Parrett into the Zodiac. And then he would be shown the mysteries by the Druids, probably on a map.

J: Do you think the whole thing could have come from Greece?

M: I think the other way around. The Underworld of the Greeks was in the far West.

J: Oh, I thought about that.

Hk: Because the dog is the gatekeeper here, and he is facing outward.

M: And you've got to get on the right side of him, so you throw barley cakes. But whether they ever did, it would be interesting to know. I'd love to hear.

J: Is there a counterpart to Burrow Bump to the nose?

W: Burrow Bump?

J: Hump. I always call it Bump. Sorry. Is there a nose on the dog in the Kingston Zodiac like that?

M: Yes. Rather. It's called Prune Hill. How does that grab you? Lovely isn't it.

Tape 1; Side 2

M: So there is a hill there -- there are one or two -- and Prune

6 Hill, I think, is the next one. I'm talking as though I am looking at the Kingston Zodiac -- there's Prune Hill on the map. But I'm sure that that's why the hill has such a ridiculous name.

J: When I went to see Burrow Mump, I was impressed because it reminded me so much of the Tor. They almost look like a pair ...

M: It's like a little Tor.

J: It showed the terracing, too. Do you think ...

M: There are three terraces there.

J: So you think that it might have been terraced, too?

M: Yes. Some people think that it is an artificial mound and was brought from about three miles away because it is made of red earth.

Mk: Like Silbury Hill.

M: Yes. On the dog's leg there's a place called Red Hill, and they think the earth might have been brought from there as a lookout mound because it was in the marshes. So you could see the Danes coming from miles around.

J: I remember someone telling me that there was a ride at night, like the dog's -- now this is a very distant memory when I was in Glastonbury two years ago someone mentioned that sometimes at night the spirits of the hunt go on a ride -- I've forgotten ...

M: Gwyn ap Nudd and Arthur. Well Gwyn ap Nudd, or Gwythyr, I think they were brothers, hunted at night for dying souls to bring them to Annwn -- Hades. Arthur certainly figured in some of those legends as the wind. And there's a well known Scottish rhyme, "Arthur, MacArthur, the big bellied ben, / he goes roaring down the glen." It's a old riddle, and you have to say, "What's that mean?" The answer is, "the wind." So obviously this is very old. But Gwythyr, I think he's probably Arthur. I think he's either the father or the brother of Gwyn ap Nudd, who was the Celtic Lord of the Tor. All that's pagan -- pre-christian.

J: Is Gwyn ap Nudd an actual historic figure?

M: No. It's mythical. St. Collen went up the Tor in the fifth, sixth century, because he was invited to feast with Gwyn ap Nudd. He didn't want to go at all, at first, but then he thought that there was a possibility of bringing Christianity here, so he took the precaution of taking some holy water up, probably from the well. And there he saw a marvelous company in the gayest liveries imaginable, and feasting on sumptous food and wine. He was royally entertained, and they offered him food and drink, but he wouldn't touch it, because he was afraid that he would be under Gwyn's spell. And then they had some conversation-- Gwyn said to St. Collen, "Have you ever seen such fine livery as I've got?" And Collen said, "But red is the color of hell-fire, and blue is the color of the outer cold and darkness." Then he dashed the water in Gwyn ap Nudd's face, which I always thought was very bad manners when one is invited to a feast. And the vhole scene disappears quickly with a great bang.

J: So the hunt -- those are the fairies that go out and ride at night?

M: Well, Gvyn ap Nudd certainly is one of those riders. He had what they call Gabriel ratchet hounds, which are white hounds with red ears and fire coming out of their nostrils. A lot like Herne the hunter. In fact, Gwyn and Heme are probably the same.

J: Where can you read about all of these things?

M: There are masses and masses of books on all this. Geoffrey Ashe "Arthur's Avalon" or Robert Graves "White Goddess".

J: The books are probably in the bibliography there.

M: Yes. A painstaking bibliography!

Well, Celtic Myth and Legend by D. Squire. That's a real old book it's a big one -- it's a real classic, but there are hundreds now, you know, hundreds. And I haven't read them all, by any means. "Triads of the Isle of Britian" by Rachel Bromwich is a useful one. It just says British Museum Collection, but in fact, I could find you that if you want to get it. Old Celtic Tribes -- several of these people are mentioned in it.

J: I noticed in the Glastonbury Zodiac you mention Starsland Farm three miles vest of the dog.

M: Yes. I've made the map come out so that it includes it. Isn't that good?

J: Because the name of the farm is "Starsland?"

M: Yes. An old name. I've got to put that in. I only noticed it recently. It seems to say, "Here the stars' land begins."

J: You said Arriragus gave Joseph the twelve hides of Glastonbury. What are the twelve hides of Glastonbury? Are you interpreting it as the actual Zodiac?

M: Also the tvelve hidden figures. Also the twelve patches of land. Twelve hidden figures in the land. A hide is a measure of land, of course.

J: It's perfect. It's absolutely perfect. Also, besides Katherine Maltwood, you mentioned that St. Dunstan referred to the Zodiac. When did did he live? Or is it in the book?

M: About 1000 A.D.

J: So the knowledge was there then.

M: He crowned four of the kings of Kingston. The first of these was Alfred's son, Edward the Elder. The story goes that Dunstan was baptized in the river Brue at Tootie bridge. Turtle, the dove of the Glastonbury Zodiac. He was born at Baltonsborough, on Sagittarius.

J: It all fits together. It's unbelievable.

H: Well I think it's very strange that Assher, Alfred's biographer-bishop lived here and laid claim to the whole of the Gemini figure. He founded the bishop's palace on Gemini's hand. At Esher it was called Assher palace. Hence, the name of the town that grew up by it -- Esher. Assher also founded Walton church on Gemini's crutch (Crutchfield Lane is here). So it seems he knew of the Gemini figure.

Asser was a Welshman, you see. And he was in charge of education for the Saxons, under Alfred, because they were all such an ignorant lot. And so he got a Welshman, because they were all better educated and still are. Baring-Gould writing in 1900 said the average Celtic peasant is head and shoulders above the Saxon peasant when it comes to education. Because of this long tradition, Druidic tradition, revering knowledge, vhich the Saxons didn't have. So when Alfred came to the throne, he got a Welshman to teach his Saxon Thanes their ABC's. So Asser must have heard about the Zodiac -- it's an old British royal secret. They were both here in Kingston, you see, Dunstan and Asser.

J: What do you think explains the breaks in transmission of the knowledge of the Zodiac?

M: It was a secret of the Celtic church passed on from the Druids, and the Roman church in £01 suppressed all things Celtic.

J: Do you think that knowledge of the Zodiac was transmitted through royalty?

M: I think so.

J: Fairly continuously?

M: I think so. When you come to reading this book, you'll find one or two old Celtic references. There is a lot there. "There is a great secret, known to few" [quoting from her book]. Sixth century. The magic rod of Mathonwy. He was the moon measurer. He was the first mathematician, I think. I reckon the Greeks got their work "Mathematics" from there. He had a rod which measured time, moon-months.

J: Was he Greek?

M: No, he vas a Celt. He was a Druid. They'd got a lot of astronomical knowledge. They had the Metonic Cycle, for example. They called it the Metonic Cycle, but there it is in Stonehenge long before the Greeks.

J: Hov do you think the knowledge got to Greece?

M: There were trading routes. The Phoenicians and the Cretans.

9 They had those records for centuries.

J: So what happened with the Phoenicians — the traders?

M: I think they took their knowledge of the Glastonbury Zodiac back to the Mediterranean. But one must remember that astrology was already the religion & philosophy all over the Ancient World. It was universal in East and West. Mrs. Maltwood surmised that the Glastonbury figures were first recognized and developed by Sumerians trading here in 2700 BC, long before the Phoenicians, who took over their trade later.

J: You also said Edward III knew about the Zodiac, or about the Aquarius figure in Kingston, anyway. And with the Falcon -

M: Well, how do you account for the falcon otherwise?

J: Why do you think it was a Falcon, as opposed to a Phoenix or some other bird?

M: An eagle.

J: Oh, I see. That makes sense.

M: It's a beautiful story. And he CEdward III] was a great Arthurian, you see. He built the 'Round Table' Tower in Windsor Castle.

J: Do you think he knew about the whole Zodiac?

M: I suspect that, being a Plantagenet, he did. They were very alternate thinkers when it came to Christianity. They were suspect of a deviant Christianity. We don't know what they believed, but it was very strange. So, I think it was Celtic and Druidic and much influenced in the Crusades by star-gazing Saracens.

J: How did you feel when you discovered the Kingston Zodiac on your own? You said you felt you were part of some time-space pattern. I was also wondering when you birthday was. And when is Katherine Maltwood's birthday?

M: She was an Arian, and I'm the opposite. I'm a Libran, a sun-Libran. She was born in April and she died when she was eighty-one in 1961. I'm a Libran, with a lot of Scorpio, which likes to go into things under the earth. What made me feel something is that I discovered, almost as though by accident, something that looked like the back leg of the belly of the lion at Epsom. And that's the first figure that she found.

J: I have thought about that -- that the lion came first. I thought it was strange that, as you wrote, the last Ice Age submerged Lyonesse and that the Lion is discovered first by both you, in the case of the Kingston Zodiac, and by Mrs. Maltwood in the case of the Glastonbury Zodiac.

M: Yes, yes. But I've got thoughts on Lyonesse, because its known that Lyonesse was Cornwall, Devon, Somerset - all that part, you see. All those Arthurian lands were called Lyonesse. All the Arthurian lands - that includes Glastonbury down to Cornwall, to Land's End and the

10 Scilly Isles. And I vould think Its the Lion, and the Giant, Esse, whose Druid name vas Esus. He was the third member of the Druidic Trinity. And he was a woodcutter. And Jesus, he was the third member of the Christian Trinity, and he was a carpenter.

J: Why do you think the Lion came first? Is it related to the legend that Hercules overcame the Nemean lion?

H: Yes. The Nemean lion is the first of his 12 Labours.

J: Do you think there's more to it, or do you think that's probably the core?

M: Well, the Nemean lion vas the first of Hercules' trials. And he's obviously a Zodiacal initiate. He's an initiate into these mysteries, and these were the struggles to find himself so that he can get from the outer world. The lion means the outer world, doesn't it. Leo is a symbol of the attractions and distractions of this world.

TAPE 2, Side 1

J: What did you mean when you wrote that you were part of a time-space pattern when you discovered the Zodiac?

M: Well, I discovered it just after she had died. It was as if she vere looking around for someone to cast her mantle on, who would get excited about it and go on - she was sure it was unfinished. And then to find the same sign first, quite by accident. I had the map beside me, and I wasn't even looking for it. Suddenly I saw this back leg, and the back tail of Leo. That's what I meant by being part of a time-space pattern. Does that make sense now?

J: Yes, it does. In a way, it relates to "the inherent order of the universe." You also wrote in the book on the Kingston Zodiac that there may be many Zodiacs -- natural formations, at nodal points on the earth. What do you mean by that?

M: They would just be nodal points. And I wouldn't like to be too sure of this. Nodal points in England, for instance Stonehenge, Oxford, and Winchester, and London and Glastonbury, are obviously, sort of "power centres", where learning and ideas, as well as the ancient civilizations, can be continuous over a long period of time. So I just thought that Zodiacs may be at points like that.

J: And Kingston is just outside of London, so you could say it vas part of London.

M: It doesn't go into London. It's beside London, 12 miles Southwest of Westminster.

J: What did you mean when you wrote that the Kingston Zodiac has a three-mile shadow circle?

H: When I saw some of the area maps, around 1S00 or so, outside the circle could see a sort of giant half-drawn Virgo and another giant half-drawn Aries. J: Like a pebble dropped in the water.

W: And non-static ones. Like the rippling of water. I don't know - that's the impression I got. This one, with the shape of Aries, is much bigear than the other ones, and it's outside the circle at Heath Row. And these three together - the Hounslov Aries is a bit small, and the stars don't quite transfer. But outside it keeps going, so it is as if someone dropped a stone.

J: Did you call the book "A Kingston Zodiac," as opposed to "The Kingston Zodiac," because you feel that yours is only one possible interpretation of the Zodiac, and that there never will be a once and for all answer to the Kingston Zodiac?

M: Actually, there is a simple reason for this. I had to get my articles togehter to be published in a magazine, and the original title of the article was "Is there a Kingston Zodiac?" This title was too long, so I just took off "Is there" when using the printed title.

J: That's why it's good to ask questions like that. Sometimes you can be over-interpreting things, and it's good to ask.

So when did you actually discover- the Kingston Zodiac?

M: Well, it was some time after Elizabeth Leader had suggested to me that there might be one. It was quite by accident. I was looking at a map of Surrey, and suddenly I saw this lion. And another year passed until I saw the two Twins -- very obvious now. And it took me a long time after that -- it was very slow. But about 1970 I started.

J: I understand that the articles you did vere for the magazine "Prediction". Is "Prediction" based in London?

M: Yes, it's an astrology journal and is actually printed in Croydon.

J: And are these Zodiacs acutally mirrored by the stars?

M: Oh, yes. The stars fit on the Glastonbury one very well. They do on the Kingston one. Execpt at Glastonbury, Virgo's stars are only on the wheat-sheaf. She's a little out. Actually, she's a bit lower down. And on the Kingston one, Aries is a bit far in, so that the stars are just outside it, to the west. But otherwise the stars do fit.

J: Do you think that Neolithic and Bronze Age man could have been aware of inherent patterns, or natural patterns, in the landscape?

M: Well, yes. A lot was done on the Glastonbury Zodiac in the Bronze Age. This is when they did all the terracing on the Tor and forts and hills that are ramparted. Certainly there was a lot going on in the Bronze Age, so I would have thought they could have been aware of patterns, yes. And also, they were astrologers in those days. They were merchants coming here for metals. And they weren't just merchants - they colonized and they set up their own line of kings, from which our present Royal family has descended. J: Do you think there were any relationships between terrestial Zodiacs and the uses and rituals associated with stone monuments and stone circles? You wrote about Saint Swithin, who was credited with Druidic power or control over the weather. That reminded me of something I had read in Tom Graves' book "Needles of Stone". He said the stone monuments could have been used to control the weather. I wonder if there could be some connection between the stone circles and Zodiacs maybe in a ritualistic sense?

M: Well, they are star-orienting things, aren't they? They were astrologers. But whether they [the stars] are actually aligned on stone circles, I don't know. The stone circles are either sunset or sunrise or moonset or moonrise - a lot of them keep track of things like that. And the Zodiac isn't so much to do with the actual movements, but the pattern, its meaning, its philosophy. And I'm sure that this was a Royal secret, because there is so much evidence for it. That's why I think the King's oldest son was called the Atheling -- initiated into the mysteries of Athelney. And Athelney itself is a magical word. You know, the Sumerian word for Paradise is Aahlu. It's spelt Aahlu on Sumerian clay tablets. And there's an Aller on the Dog's back -- actually there are two Allers on the Glastonbury Zodiac. Aller meant Paradise to the Sumerians. So the Atheling was getting the lowdown on Paradise.

The name Aller is Alfred's name. Alfred baptized Guthrun the Dane and beat him to his knees -- he was twice his size. Alfred was only a little chap, you know. And Alfred gave Guthrun the choice, either be baptized into Christianity or have his head chopped off. And Guthrin, being sensible, said he'd like to be a Christian. And so Alfred set him to rule the whole of northeast England. And that's why I think he baptized him here, at Aller, because he was really initiating him into a better set of laws then he had known -- Alfred's laws. And so Aller is a very important place in Saxon times. Why else [besides the Zodiac3 did he baptize him there? It was in the middle of nowhere. Why not at Winchester - that was his capital. And why not at Glastonbury, with the splendid Abbey?

J: The place must have been very special.

M: Yes, in the middle of the guardian Dog. And when he baptized him, he gave him many fine houses, Asser tells us. Houses of the Zodiac? And in Asser's "Life of Alfred" the word Aller is spelt AAHLRE -- like the Sumerian Aahlu. The Sumerians and Phoenicians - the same people, really. Sumerians were Bronze Age, Phoenicians came later.

J: So it could be one very coherent system.

M: Yes.

J: So what is the system of Druidic weather control with Saint Swithin?

M: Well, the Druids were supposed to be able to control the weather.

J: To call rain and storms, for instance?

13 W: Yes. To insure their open-air meetings -- because they always met in the "Eye of Light," as they said. And if they wanted to call up storms, they were supposed to be able to.

J: For crops and such?

M: Yes. And to drown out armies not on their side! And I don't doubt that they did control the weather, or that they could. I'll tell you a story. I went to the Glastonbury Festival -- before it got so awful. And the weather was terrible, and we had to take shelter under somebody's table. And it rained down, and it wouldn't stop. And so I said to my friend, "Listen, we have to something or this will be washed up. Let's get down under this table, and put our heads together and see if we can do something." And we sat for nearly a quarter of an hour and really concentrated. And I didn't believe it, but it cleared just over our heads. And I said, "Look at what we've done." Everywhere else it was pelting down, but above us was blue sky.

We had stopped it together or a very strange coincidence, that's all I can say. And so we crawled out from under, and we began to enjoy the Festival. And then it started again. I said, "We'll go back again." And so we went back, and this time we found some meditators who had a little tent. They had cushions all over the place - so we got in there, much more comfortable. And I said, "We must really put up a good effort." And so we all did, about six of us there. And it stopped after a quarter of an hour. And I said, "We should be sure, and we shouldn't stop too soon." We stayed a little longer, and it cleared. And when we got out it was absolutely beautiful, cloudless -- and it stayed like that all the weekend. The weather forecast was a wet weekend.

And when I went home, I stopped off at Stonehenge to see some old Druid buddies, whom I hadn't seen for some time. And they said, "Have you come for the Dawn Festival?" It was the summer solstice. I hadn't, but they got a robe for me, and it was the most marvelous thing. I joined in the Druid procession, and what was my luck, but I just happened to be, when it stopped, all around the inside of the stones, I was dead opposite the heelstone. It was just my luck. And it was a perfect sunrise - it was reaaly beautiful. I could watch the sun just creep up over the stone. And I thought that it was because I had made an effort for all those people. I think probably it did work. And so, when you say "Could the Druids control the weather?", well, I was a Druid.

TAPE 2, Side 2

J: Now who was this Saint Swithin?

M: Well, the word Swithin is interesting. It was a name for the Druids -- they called themselves Swine, Sywedydd.

J: We saw, as we came into Kingston, the word Ham mentioned many times. Ham Common, Ham Road, and Ham Court. And we thought, "Oh, it's the Kingston Pig!"

M: (she laughs) Oh no. Ham is supposed to be a homestead. Also, Ham was a Sun god, one of the sons of Noah. It's on the Sun god, of course. Ham is on the sign of Sagittarius in the Kingston Zodiac.

J: When did Saint Swithin live?

M: Well, he took Alfred to Rome when Alfred was a boy. That was around 850. They called him a Saxon. With a name like that, he's got to be a Welsh Druid. Alfred (and I expect his father before him) respected the Welsh, because they realized they had this ancient Druidic tradition of learning, and respect for letters and poetry and music. So naturally they were the advisers to the King. Dunstan was just the same. They said that he loved the old pagan songs and he walked everywhere with a harp.

J: What is the correspondence between the knights and the effigies? Is it in your book?

M: Yes. Galahad is obviously the Christ figure. And many things point to him as Gemini.

J: Is it the same for all Zodiacs?

M: Yes. Except the Kingston Zodiac seems to have another mythology (Robin Hood and his many men) closely attached to it. There is an Arthur Road just outside the Park and about five minutes walk away from here. Sagittarius seems to be a hooded figure, too. I would think that the Zodiac signs are the Merry Men, and Virgo would be Maid Marian. Robin is Sagittarius. Capricorn would be Friar Tuck or Merlin.

J: I also noticed on the Kingston map an area called Perivale near Capricorn. The word "Perivale" reminded me of the name of the knight Percivale. Is there any connection there?

M: All I thought was that it was the perimeter, the valley that is on the northern perimeter of the Zodiac.

J: Mrs. Maltwood assigned Percivale to Aquarius?

M: Also to the second twin, which she called a Griffin.

J: And she believed Percivale was one of the three knights to achieve the Grail. I have two questions about that. First, what does it mean to "achieve" the Grail? To become initiated into the knowledge?

M: It didn't seem like knowledge when Galahad achieved the Grail, because he trembled in every limb and then he fell flat on his face, dead. I mean, he vas really happy. That's what he wanted. I would think he achieved another state of consciousness. That's more than knowledge. Obviously, it goes through steps of knowledge in the mysteries, before achieving a break-through on Galahad's level.

J: Who are the other two knights to achieve the Grail and what are their corresponding signs of the Zodiac?

M: Bors and Perceval, really -- Bors is a kind of Arthur figure. He's a sort of son of Arthur. But he is a mysterious figure. Arthur had a natural son called Borres. This comes from Malory's "Morte d'Arthur." By the Lady Honors, which sounds like Lyonesse. So I would think Bors is really son of Arthur. Gemini is the son of Arthur, too. But in this case, he's Galahad, so he's not the son of Arthur, he's the son of Lancelot. But in fact, this muddle is because of the centuries of rejection and getting mixed up and changing things and giving them new names. And Percival is ourselves as we are, the boy in the backwoods, making all the mistakes in the book -- a pilgrimage of trial and error around the Zodiac. And Galahad is the perfected man, really. He always was perfect -- unspeakably perfect. Boringly perfect! I shouldn't say that. Galahad represents our higher self, which we can get in touch with when we are "masters" in the mysteries.

J: Why is Percivale assigned to two signs -- Aquarius and the second Gemini?

M: This is what Mrs. Maltwood said. She said when he had gone all around the Zodiac adventures, he at last climbs the Tor, which is the Hill of resurrection and new life and elevated understanding. You climb a mountain and you're inspired. And she usually assigned him to the second twin, which she said was a Griffin. Although the human figure was there, she didn't see it. She said there was a Griffin there. And she had some slight reasons for saying this because there is a funny Griffin story to do with Lancelot, actually in the "Higher History," an old grail manuscripot written around 1200. So, I mean, it could be. There's also a second twin, which she didn't see. She didn't see the Christ figure, either, but he's certainly there. And that's another interesting thing, talking of geology. That Christ-like head, which you see in this extraordinary photograph, which suddenly appeared to me when I was peering into it -- the features are made by the ramparts of a British camp on the top of Dundon Hill. But if you're going to make a rampart, you don't go around the flatter parts, because that involves you in a lot of spade work. You obviously follow the steepest contours. So I think that's another case of natural geology, the contours of the ground give him his marvelous Christ-like head.

J: Dictating the outline of the effigy?

M: Dictating the outline that they used for the ramparts, because that was the easiest thing to do.

J: It made sense.

M: But this head has been marred by a fir plantation recently, planted by the Forestry Commission. It runs right across the nose at right angles to the profile.

J: It's interesting -- you almost have two opposing forces. One is pulling to have the knowledge rediscovered out and understood ....

M: And a whole lot of little demons who are determined it shan't be. But you'd be amazed at the things that have happened -- the most horrible things keep happening. Which I can only put down to some dark forces doing what they can to delay it or to obstruct it or to knock it.

J: Have you ever felt in any danger?

lb M: No. I've felt ill once or twice, until, fortunately I met some psychic or other who said, "Oh, that's only psychic attack. Don't worry. Throw your chest out." And as soon as I did that -- I recovered. There's nothing more with psychic attack that you can do.

J: There is a psychological thing.

M: But I mean machines, printing machines were broken, so that the book wouldn't be published — it was originally to be published by some hippies. They were sweet, and they meant well, but they just weren't used to being economical or keeping within a budget. The paper went all over the place and trampled on -- it was terrible waste. I went down at some point to see -- and whole sheets of printed paper had been left outside in an outhouse where it got damp. Oh -- you can't believe what went wrong. Well, they went bust. I bust them -- no, the Zodiac bust them. They weren't all there enough to cope with the strength of the forces against them. They did publish it, but it bust them. It's a sad story.

J: I have heard the Tor referred to as a place of transfiguration — possibly in the sense that one may achieve the Grail and/or a different level of consciousness there. Could this process be brought about by one's progressing through the spiral-maze pattern of terraces and at the conclusion of the spiral then achieving some sort of transfiguration? Do you think this transfiguration could be spiritual, physical, or both? Or something else?

M: I think of the maze, if the maze is there, as a Cretan maze I think of it as a symbol of achieving the Grail by means of alternating between the right brain, going into the left brain, back to the right -- alternately. Not being just academic and not being overly mystical. But by constantly applying the touchstone of experience to your intuition, this is how you gradually come to home the middle, at the top of the hill. But its more of a symbol than actually doing it will do that for you. I don't believe in that kind of magic, although tracing the terraces with such thoughts in mind (a day-long job) should produce some inspirations. f J: So not in the sense of a physical transfiguration or passage to the Underworld? I know that sometimes the Tor has been called the door to the Underworld?

M: Well, climbing it is an experience, isn't it? Climbing any high hill gives you a buzz. Even going up my local hill in Richmond Park and looking dovn on Kingston. When I was up to the eyeballs in children and housework, and absolutely desperate, the most wonderful effect -- biking up there and sitting and looking down. Well, any hill has this effect. I think this is why mountaineers climb mountains. That's what it's for.

J: And the sherpas climb with them and don't get any credit -- and they lug the bags.

M: Well, they like it too.

J: That's true. What is the counterpart to Glastonbury Tor in

If the Kingston Zodiac?

M: Osterley. Not much of a hill really, but it is one. Harrow Hill, seven miles north, is more like Glastonbury Tor. It's an ancient holy hill.

J: What is the significance of the Tor on the Aquarian sign?

M: Aquarius is the turn year, isn't it. It's the end (January = Janus the 2-headed God) of the year and the beginning. And so it's the northern point. So at the end of the year you make your escape. Actually, it's not now the summer solstice. But in fact, you know owing to the procession of the equinoxes, the time of the solstices have moved, gradually. It's going back, actually. There was a time in the Bronze Age when Aquarius was the winter solstice and Leo the summer solstice, and Taurus and Virgo were the spring and autumn equinoxes. Mrs. Maltwood dates the recognition of the Glastonbury Zodiac to that time, 2700 B.C. The winter solstice is now between Sagittarius and Capricorn. But obviously all those Zodiac signs have to do with the end of the year and the beginning of the next year. You've gone around, now you're either going around the old treadmill again or going to take off. So Aquarius is like a Davey escape hatch in a submarine.

J: Is Wick Tor also on the Aquarian symbol here at the Kingston Zodiac?

M: There is a place called Wick on Aquarius' Osterley Hill, but it's not called Wick Tor. There is another Wick at the foot of Glastonbury Tor. The significance of Wick in both Zodiacs is that the name occurs on Capricorn's nose where it touches Aquarius. Wie or Wych occurs on many high places. I believe it means Whit-mound, with the word "Whit" meaning inspiration.

J: Is Osterly Hill terraced?

M: It's just a slight bump, really. It's really fairly flat. The same shape -- there's a rounded settlement -- very ancient, on the top of the hill.

J: Do you believe the effigies affect people who live within them? Is there aura of place associated with the effigies?

Mt Yes, very much so. To understand the psychology of astrology is to understand ones' self. It is as vital today as ever it was.

J: You mentioned the asylums around Leo.

M: Well, I mentioned a lot of thing like that, actually. And I keep finding more examples of this. Every so often something more comes up. For instance, don't live at Walton if you don't want twins. That's on the balls of Gemini. The first twin club in England happened there. Unbelievable!

J: I read that the number of twins there was twice that of the national average. Amazing!

IS M: That was sent to me by the woman who started the twin club. She was worried with twins. It's so expensive, so they have to exchange for clothes and shoes and things.

J: Do you think it's coincidence that you live here in Libra?

M: On my own sun sign? Not random -- that I should find myself on my own sun sign. It's the last one I found. I couldn't even find my own sign at all. A student saw me poring over the map. You know that I used to teach art for a long time -- and the student saw me with this map of Kingston, before me. Day after day at coffee time I'd get it out and try to find the symbol Libra. I said, "I'm trying to find a bird here." And he found it right away. But he said, "I don't believe in any of this, anyway." And he walked away. But he'd found a perfect Libran bird for me, all drawn by the main roads of Kingston. It was a lesson to me. It's not easy to find ones' self.

Tape 3, Side 1:

J: What relevance do you think that the Zodiac has for us today?

M: Well, I think we're at a stage where we don't know anymore who we are, what we've come for, whether there's any purpose in life, whether there's any reason, or any holistic pattern, which in itself is purposeful. Because religion is so much on the decline. And really because it has failed to answer these questions in the light of new education. It [knowledge of the Zodiacal patterns] is behind all religions -- it's really the foundation of knowledge of all religions. And so, it is, in these days, something we very badly need, especially in middle and old age -- people don't think they need it so much when young -- but they do need it -- to feel there is purpose in life. And as far as can I read these signs, and their relationships, and their secrets, it's telling us who we are, what we come from --- we're partly from the sun, or the sun behind the sun -- partly from outer space and partly from Mother Earth -- that's Virgo. We're the sons of God and Man. And we have a purpose, vhich is really, I think, to increase our level of consciousness. And that's what the Quest for the Grail is all about. It's a re-statement of the source of all religions, in clear, 20th century terms, which I find, myself, very illuminating. I think it's very relevant - very relevant.

J: What is the significance of fire and water symbolism in the Zodiacs? Fire is associated with the Phoenix and the funeral pyre. Water, with Chalice Well, is also on Aquarius, and later the Aquarian Phoenix becomes the Water Bearer. What is the significance of these two basic elements in the Zodiacs? Also, at the Museum of Antiquities in Edinburgh, we saw some beakers made by the Beaker people. These beakers were decorated with their symbols for fire and water.

M: I didn't know this. Did they really have those patterns on their beakers?

J: Yes. The symbol for fire was an inverted triangle with cross-hatching in one direction, and the symbol for vater was the triangle flipped the other way, also with cross-hatching, on the Neolithic beakers.

M: How do you know those designs symbolized fire and water?

J: I don't know for sure, but that's what the Museum said they were.

M: I would have thought that water would have been like the sign of Aquarius, wouldn't you?

J: Ripples. That could be. Do you believe the importance of fire and water in the Zodiac is related to the Sun mythology?

M: What's the pyre in Aquarius - it's an air sign but pouring water.

J: And also the burning, with the rebirth -

M: The pyre-ramids.

J: Pyre-ramids - that's good!

M: Well the Phoenix burns himself and emerges from his own ashes on top of the Pyramid.

J: Is that where the word 'pyre' comes from?

M: I don't know. Well, pyre has come to mean a fire pyre, but perhaps it just meant a pile originally - might even call it a pyramid. It might not have originally meant pyre. And then you' make a bonfire - that's a pyramid. So it becomes a fire pyre - I don't know, really.

J: Is there a counterpart to Chalice Well on the Kingston Zodiac? Any sacred stream or sacred well?

M: There's a mound in the grounds of Osterly Park, which is interesting. They call it a meat cellar, but it's quite interesting - a mound on the top of this small hill - quite small, really. This gentle slope, rather than a hill.

J: No water or well?

M: You know, I've never looked. There may be some. There's water, of course, because there's a lake in the grounds, which looks like the shape of the Phoenix head, actually. I suppose that's natural. The River Brent flows around it but doesn't start from it.

Mk: What does Osterly mean?

M: Well, that's an interesting name, isn't it. I would think it's to do with Easter, actually, Osterly. Scandinavian, isn't it.

Mk: Isn't there a name like that in the Glastonbury Zodiac - Otherly, or something. Down by the Dog, I thought I saw it.

M: Oh yes -- Othery.

J: It is similar.

ZO M: Osterley could be 'Eastward Road' or Easter -- Mound of Rebirth. (MC looks up Osterly in the Oxford Guide to English Place Names) Oster is found in Osterland. The word may be related to Old English, Ost -- a knob, a knot. A knob, yes because it's a high point. It's meaning may be hilloch, or the like. That's the best we can do for a Tor. Actually, there's a marvelous Tor, but it is seven miles due North of there, and that's Hallow Hill. And that's a real holy hill, the word Haro means holy.

J: Is it terraced at all?

M: Not really -- so that you could see now. It's been built over in part, not entirely. There's a church on the top. But it's very spectacular, it goes up like this. It's not as spectacular as the Tor, but you can see it from miles around. But that's a good seven miles North of the Zodiac. That's the best ve can do, I'm afraid. It does mean hilloch apparently, or at least related.

J: Why is the quest for the Holy Grail now thought to be a quest for a chalice? What is the symbolism of the chalice?

M: The story is that Joseph of Arimethea brought the chalice of the Last Supper with him. That's the story. There are earlier versions where he is said to have brought tvo vases or cruits and there's a window in Langport church where he is holding two little vessels containing the blood and the sweat of Jesus. Interesting. There's a very old excerpt that was found in Glastonbury Abbey and copied by John of Glastonbury. And that, I don't know whether you've read that, but it's very fascinating about Joseph. Because it meant -- page 242 of my book -- this is something which was copied by John of Glastonbury in about 1400. And that's the earliest form we've got of it. The whole style --as you'll see for yourselves -- is so much earlier than this. It talks about the prophet Jesus for a start, vhich brings it right back to apocryphal and gnostic times. And the Saracens, I would think, who were in Alexandria and round- about there, earlier -- before Mohammed -- they would regard him as the prophet Jesus. But it's not Christian, really. (She reads the passage)

"The Isle of Avalon, eager for the death of pagans, for the burial of them all, adorned before all other places in the world by foretelling spheres of prophecy, forever will be honoured by those who praise the Highest. Abbadare, mighty in Saphat, most noble of pagans, with one hundred and four thousand" -- this is sheer Gematria -- "hath there found rest. Among whom, Joseph from the sea, from Arimathea, has found perpetual sleep; and he lies in a bifurcate line near the southern angle of an oratory made of wattles above a mighty Virgin, worthy to be adorned by the aforementioned spheres, thirteen in number, dwellers in that place." That must be the Zodiac -- it's the thirteen signs -- the dog and the twelve. "Joseph truly has vith him in his sarcophagus two vessels, white and silver," -- see, nothing about the chalice -- "filled with the blood of the prophet Jesus. When his sarcophagus shall be found, whole and entire, it shall be seen in time to come, and shall be open to all the world. From that time forth neither water nor dew from heaven shall fail the dwellers in that famous isle. For a long while before the Day of Judgement in Josaphat these things will be revealed

Zl and declared to the living."

Some people think that Welkin was Maelgwyn, the uncle of David of Wales and abbot of Glastonbury around 450 A.D. It goes back to that time, as you can tell from the internal structure of the names. You can see that it's come from the Middle East. I would think Alexandrian monks would have brought it in the third or fourth century, don't you? That's what it reads like. From Saracens, really, the prophet Jesus. Extraordinary.

Somebody thinks that there is a lost Liber Melkini, a book of the Melkites, who had been Royalist Copts, before the Arab conquest of Egypt in 641. So there you are, you can take your pick. But there were certainly third century Coptic hermits from Egypt, settled in Ireland. And Glastonbury's recently excavated hermit huts have very much the same stamp about them -- they are in a circle.

J: What are the hermit huts?

M: There were some hermit huts excavated in the abbey grounds by Raleigh Radford, and he said that they were in a circle and he thought they were 3rd or 4th century A.D.

J: When were they excavated?

M: Around about the 1940's, I would think.

J: When did they date the huts?

M: Well that's what he thought, that they were 3rd century -- I think all they probably found were post holes, I suspect. Whether there was any wood left, I doubt, or anything that they could date, I don't know. Really, I'm a bit vague about them. You don't get them in many books, actually. It's something I ought to have gone into, but I haven't. Anyway, I think that that's a reference to the Zodiac, and the guardian dog, myself. "Foretelling spheres. " What else could it be? It must be. And when people say the monks of Glastonbury Abbey made up the story of Joseph coming here as a marvelous revenue bringer -- you know, nice little earners, they say -- for the abbey. But in fact, this is much more interesting than that. And nobody could make that passage up. They wouldn't think of words like Josephat, Saphat. It's all Alexandrian, Saracen, Egyptian, Coptic, clearly.

J: I'm looking forward to reading that book.

M: I think this passage is very fascinating. It comes in my chapter on Joseph of Arimethea. It shows that he's older than most critics would like to think. They think his legend only came in about the fourteenth century, as a tourist attraction. But it isn't so. And "mighty Virgin," now, you never think of the Christian Virgin as mighty, she's always meek. I mean, unspeakably so. But "mighty" Virgin, that could only be Virgo, she is mighty. She's all of four miles long. And it would belong to her because she's the Queen of the land. She is the Earth-Mother of olden days and was much feared.

J: What mix of conscious versus unconscious intention do you

zz believe vas exercised by the people who planned and outlined the effigies?

M: A totally unanswerable question. I'm always wondering myself. But every so often I come across something like those natural contour lines which make the lion's head, and I think, "Well, that's natural." And then you come across a marvelously drawn torso of Arthur, Sagittarius, and you think, "They must have done that consciously." Then you find that those roads have to go around a little hill. So again that's natural. The whole thing, to me, seems to be dictated by nature. But at the same time, I am sure that ancient peoples recognized it. And obviously they put things like ... (end of side)

Tape 3, Side 2

... antiquities like Wimble Toot on the Virgin's breast -- it's the nipple on her breast, and it's a splendid great mound, have you seen it?

J: Not yet.

M: Well, you should see that -- it's lovely. And Ponter's Ball, which is another antiquity -- it makes the horn of Capricorn. The unicorn's horn. Those are man-made. And there's some doubt in my mind about Capricorn's horn, because it seems to have been a breakwater, or a landing place for ships, because all around there was very flooded.

J: You mentioned a unicorn. On the right side of the road from Richmond to Kingston we saw a unicorn above a large iron gate.

M: Absolutely. Just over the river at Kew. Well, Capricorn is made by the River Thames and his neck is on the Thames. So the unicorn is just over on the south side. The original lion and the unicorn on the gate of Kew Gardens are the summer and winter signs of the Zodiac. That's part of the ancient secret.

J: Do you think the Zodiac is part of the geomantic tradition? Could the evolution of the Zodiac have been influenced by feng shui in China? Or maybe the geomantic knowledge went from England to China?

M: Well, that's rather a long way away, isn't it. I don't know. I don't know. I think in more intuitive days it is likely that this could crop up any way. People felt the oneness of the land and the sky and their connection with the unseen. It seems a natural extension of that, doesn't it?

J: Instead of a physically transmitted tradition.

M: Yes. It's hardly necessary to have such an extravagent theory, I feel. It's like astrology, it seems to crop up everywhere. Out of the unconscious.

J: Out of the psyche.

M: Yes. I was going to look something up -- Egypt is not older than Sumeria; Sumeria is not older than Egypt. It is curious how they seem to suddenly start -- these civilizations. All at once.

23 J: You said the the Phoenicians were the sea arm ..

M: Yes. Of the ancient Sumerian, Chaldean, Babylonian, Assyrian complex.

This is a poem of Taliesin, 6th century:

J: What page are we on?

M: Page 195 [of Mrs. Caine's book on the Glastonbury Zodiac]. "May the Heavenly God protect us from a general overflowing / The first surging billow has rolled beyond the sea-beach / A greater than he, Daronwy, there has not been" -- I say that's Dundon Hill, Fort of Don, Genius -- "To afford us a sanctuary, round the Proud Celestial Circle. / There is a greater secret the dawn of the men of Goronwy, / Though known to few -- the magic wand of Mathonwy, / Which grows in the wood / With more exuberant fruit, on the bank of the river of spectres. / Kynan shall obtain it when he comes to govern."

I think this is rather conclusive myself. I mean one doesn't understand things like Garonwy, the men of Garonwy, and Daronwy. But you'll find dates on that if you ever get hold of Edward Davies' "Rites and Mythology of the British Driuds" and "Celtic Researchers". He's got quite a bit on that. But obviously, there is a secret that is passed on to people when they come to govern. And it's in a wood, "on the bank of the river of spectres.• That must be the kings of the underworld. Because the underworld, you see, was Hades, really, guarded by Cerberus. "The magic wand of Mathonwy" -- that's to do with moon and sun measurements, because they had a wand which measured the passing of the spheres. And "round the Proud Celestial Circle." The waves are coming in, all around Dundon Hill, and the ship is awash, obviously. And so he's Doronwy, or Don, on his hill -- that's the Fort of Wisdom, or Inspiration. That's the Christ figure, the Gemini figure. And he's protecting them. They're all right as long as they are on Dundon Hill, because they won't get washed away. I'm sure that all around, it became an island.

J: Like Glastonbury.

M: Yes.

Mk: There is also an interesting parallel to the story of Noah's ark in that poem.

J: In your book on the Kingston Zodiac I read that Gemini rules the United States. You also wrote that there was a Western gate of the Zodiac. What is the "gate" of the Zodiac, and what did you mean by writing that Gemini rules the U.S.?

M: The Kingston Zodiac. Ah, Walton. It means the Wales town, or the Welsh. Ton is a mound of earth, or it can be a town. In fact, all towns started as mounds of earth. They had a big mound first -- you know, that's the fair place, where everybody came to meet.

J: So that's the gate.

24 M: Yes. That's the southwestern gate for the Kingston Zodiac. And all round you get Walton, Wallington on the Southeast, Walton on the southwest, and Walesfarm Road up in the North on the hoof of Capricorn. It looks like it is the circle of the Waellas, or the Welsh. They were called that by the Saxons, you see, when they took over this part. This is a special sacred part of the Welsh. Because the Welsh had the Lamphorn.

J: What about Gemini ruling the U.S?

M: That's not me. That's traditional astrology. You get that in quite a lot of astrology books. I'm talking generally about the attribution of places to certain zodiac signs.

J: Do you believe that? Do you think that it has merit?

H: I really don't know, except insofar as I see it works on the Kingston Zodiac to a remarkable degree. It really is uncanny, actually. You have read about Aries on Hounslow Heath. It's all adrenalin and Mars, you know, soldiers, barracks, highway-men, they made the first bullets and cannon balls here on the river Crane that were ever used in Europe. I think the battle of Crecey. They were made on the sign of Aries on Hounslow. The old shottower is still there. Well, there is a shottower there, a successor of the original one. And there is the Twickenham rugby football ground there, you can't have anything more macho, battling, and arien than that. And the Hall is the Kneller Hall London School of Military Music; you hear bugles all over the place. Military bugles. All on the sign of Aries. That's just one example. But each sign is remarkably like itself.

J: What is the relationship between nursery rhymes and the Zodiac? You write that Virgo is Mother Hubbard and you mentioned Mother Goose.

M: The ones I like to remember most are not so much Mother Hubbard -- she had a dog. And it could mean Mother Earth and it could mean Cerberus. I can't remember now -- there was an historical old Mother Hubbard on the sign of Virgo in Sutton or Cheam, and she was a very poor pensioner, and they had to pay her two and six because she hadn't a petticoat.

J: Is this an old story?

M: Yes. It's a local one. On Virgo. It's rather curious. The one's that really intrigued me are the three: Little Boy Blue come blow out your horn -- that sounds like Gemini -- the cow's in the meadow -- that's Taurus -- the sheep's in the corn -- that's Aries. They've got three adjacent signs. This vas supposed to be a lampoon, made up about Cardinal Woolsey, who was at Hampton Court, which is on Taurus, next to Aries and Gemini. (It's only just across the river, and Aries is just to the north.) It's strange, isn't it. It was supposed to be a lampoon, because he was a very bad pastor to his sheep. They thought of him as boy blue, but why? Cardinals are always dressed in red. But I think this nursery rhyme is an old Hampton Court mystery, to remind us of the three adjacent signs. Gemini is Little Boy Blue because he's drawn by the river Mole.

J: You're not going to believe it -- I'm at the end of my questions! Thank you very much.

Z5 BOOKS USED BY MARY CAINE FOR ZODIAC RESEARCH

(We do not have these books.)

Waite, Arthur Edward. The Holy Grail! The Galahad Quest in the Arthurian Literature^. New York: University Books, 1961. [Publishers of Library of the Mystic Arts. New Hyde Park, NY. 3

Davies, Edward. Celtic Researches on the Origin,. Traditions^ and Language of the Ancient Britons.. London: J. Booth, 1804. [Pastor]

Davies, Edward. The Mythology and Rites of the British Druids.. London: J. Booth, 1809.

Spence, Lewis. The History of Atlantis.. Secaucus: The Citadel Press, 1973.

Spence, Lewis. The History and Origins of Druidism.. London: The Aquarian Press, 1949.

Spence, Lewis. The Mysteries of Britain.. London: Rider & Co. , c. 1930.

Reiser, Oliver. This Holyest Erthe.. (Pittsburgh) London: Perennial Books, 1974.

Gordon, E. 0. Prehistoric London! Its Mounds & Circles.. London: Covenant Pub. Co., 1946.

Mann, A. T. Jhe Round Art.. England: Paper Tiger, Dragon's World Ltd., 1979. [astrology]

Morgan, Morien. The Mabin of Mabinggian.. Research into Lost Knowledge Org., c/o Mr. Robert Cowley, 8 The Drive, New Southgate, London Nil 2DY. Thorson's Publishers Ltd., Wellinborough, 1984. First published as "The Royal Winged Son of Stonehenge and Avebury."

Evans, Sebastian, tr. History of the Kings of Britain.. Geoffrey of Monmouth. revised by Charles Dunn, NYU English Dept. Everyman's Library -- 1958.

Troyes, Chretien de. Arthurian Romances.. W. W. Comfort tr. Everyman's Library, 1967.

Matarasso, Pauline M. The Quest for the Holy Grail.. Penguin, 1969.

Lewis, Rev. Lionel Smithett. St.. Joseph of Arimathea at Glastonbury.. London: James Clarke & Co., 1955. Evans, Sebastian, tr. The High History of the Holy Grail.. Everyman's Library. (used by K. Maltwood)

Rees, Alwyn and Brinley Rees. Celtic Heritage.. Thames and Hudson, 1961. Reprinted 1978.

Brumage, Rachel. Triads of Britain.. (allowed by scholars)

Chambers, E. K. Arthur of Britain.. London: Sidgewick and Jackson, 1966.

Morgan, Rev. R. W. St.. Paul in Britain^ or the Origin of British as Oggosed to Papal Christianity^ London: The Covenant Pub. Co., 1860.

Roberts, Cecil. And So to Ba thLondon: Hodder and Stoughton, 1940.

Loomis, Roger S. The Development of Arthurian Romance.. London: Hutchinson University Library, 1963.

Jones, Gwyn and Thomas Jones, tr. The Mabinggign.. New York: Everyman's Library, 1957.

Rolleston, T. W. Myths and Legends of the Celtic Race.. London: George G. Harrap & Co., 1911.

Menzies, Lucy. St.. Columbia of Iona.. Glasgow: The Iona Community, 1964.

Chadwick, Nora. The Druids.. Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1966.

Dunstan, Victor. Did the Virgin Mary Live & Die in England.. Megiddo Press, Cardiff.

Fell, Barry. America B..C.. Wallaby, NY: Pocket Books, 1976.

Folklore^ Myths and Legends of Britain.. Reader's Digest, 19737

Loomis, Roger Sherman. Wales and the Arthurian Legend.. Cardiff: University of Wales Press, 1956.

Morganwg, Iola. The Triads of Britain.. W. Probert, tr. London: Wildwood House, 1977.

Squire, Charles. Celtic Myth & Legend^ Poetry and Romance:. London: Gresham Pub.

Wood, David. Genisis. Baton Press.

Collins, Geoffrey Ashe. King Arthur^s Avalon. London: 1957. 2? 2S